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July 4, 1997 - Art Bell

02:49:05

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Michael Hesemann - Beyond Roswell. Linda Moulton Howe - UFO Crash Site Debris

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	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest.
	I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be and welcome to another edition Of the best live overnight talk show, the largest live overnight talk show in America.
	From the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands in the West.
	Eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	South into South America, North all the way to the Pole.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Alright, there is going to be much that we are going to do on this night, this morning.
	We will go to Roswell, New Mexico for two events.
	One, an update from Linda Moulton Howe.
	Now, I would be interested to find out how many people in the audience saw on network news of any sort a report on what occurred at the news conference that you're about to hear about from Linda Moulton Howe.
	Fax me, email me, let me know.
	Uh, because as far as I can see, and I've been watching coverage of CNN, uh, covering Roswell, and, uh, you know, it shows people in the museum and milling around and looking at, uh, uh, the Roswell, uh, movie props and, uh, the evidence, uh, in the museum, but I have not yet seen any coverage of the really hard news that occurred at Roswell, and Linda Moulton Howe has it for us.
	We will then speak with Michael Hessman, Who also is in Roswell and has authored a brand new book called Beyond Roswell.
	He is here from Germany.
	And so we'll speak with him for a while.
	Then we will go to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Probably in the order of about 1 o'clock Pacific.
	And we will find out what he has to say about the day's events.
	With regard to Pathfinder, I have been, as he was, glued to my television.
	Most all day long, watching the incredible, apparently incredible events unfold from the Jet Propulsion Lab.
	What an incredible mission, in my opinion.
	And it's just, it's absolutely nothing short of remarkable.
	The photographs are astounding.
	My congratulations to NASA.
	I believe they have done it.
	I've checked with Wayne Green at the behest of Richard, and Wayne writes that he also believes that the signal is coming from the correct place.
	There have been, as a matter of fact, I'll read you, when I get a chance, what Wayne Green had to say.
	And we will hear what Richard has to say.
	So, all in all, it should be quite a program indeed.
	Quite a program indeed.
	And it all gets underway in just a moment, so as the old expression goes,
	touch not that dial.
	Sound of explosion.
	Music.
	Alright, uh...
	There was hard news from Roswell.
	Hard news from Roswell today.
	And apparently the networks are not picking up on it.
	At least that's my sense, as I've been able to see on CNN.
	Here is Linda Bolton Howe from Roswell.
	Linda?
	Hi, Art.
	Hi.
	What a day, I guess, for you.
	It has been.
	It has been extremely crowded here today.
	I'm not sure what the numbers are going to come in on the number of people, but they had to have Police cars in the streets to help control and it was hard in some cases to move through the sidewalk that had an extremely festive Crowded air and tonight out at the Roswell airfield there was a big banquet inside of one of those old metal hangers and it was so eerie because One of the biggest thunderstorms that I've ever seen or heard just seemed to descend right on the spot where we all were and
	And it made everyone think about Matt Brazel's description 50 years ago on another near 4th of July or 4th of July in which a huge thunderstorm also hit and may or may not have been responsible and connected to one of these crashes.
	So we went through another one of these vivid thunderstorms in this desert climate right here in Roswell at the airfield and in this context of what may have happened here and What debris was collected from what site?
	This is where, at 9 o'clock this morning, the people who gathered over in the Milton Pierce Auditorium to talk about a piece of debris were Roger Lear, MD.
	He's a podiatrist who's been involved in some of the removal of, in one case, an implant from a toe for analysis.
	Jesse Marcel, Jr.
	The son of Jesse Marcel Sr., one of the intelligence agents who was in a debris field somewhere between Corona and Roswell 50 years ago and talked about it on videotape before he passed on and they played back some of that videotape today to remind us of Jesse Marcel Sr.
	Insisting that what he had gathered from this debris field was not the remains of a weather balloon, and it was refreshing to hear his own voice speaking again from an older videotape.
	Dr. Russell Vernon Clark, PhD chemist from the University of California, San Diego.
	He was the main scientific presenter.
	The other two people there were Chris Wyatt, a TV producer, And Darryl Sims, who has been working with Roger Lear on abduction analysis.
	When Dr. Russell Vernon Clark gave a presentation for approximately 20 minutes, it was the heart of the scientific analysis that they have been apparently carrying out for a year on a piece in which we saw his photograph.
	And Dr. Clark said that what he had to analyze was approximately one 10th of a milligram of this specimen.
	He used graphs to try to explain that when you do isotope ratio analysis, what you're trying to do is look at the number of neutrons and the protons at the center of a molecule of an element and see if there's any variation.
	For example, I'll give the simplest example that he gave.
	If you have carbon 12, that's what it's called, It's because it has six neutrons and six protons at the center of the nucleus.
	If you refer to carbon-13, it's because you will have six protons and seven neutrons.
	And these are the kinds of things that they were looking at.
	When they showed the picture, it was dark black, appeared to also have some iridescent blue.
	They think it was because it was exposed to heat.
	But the summary of his explanation for what so far they've been able to learn and they are trying to corroborate their findings.
	It is a small piece of something that is dark and extremely light and upon elemental composition analysis is almost 100% silicon.
	Now, on the earth, there is no such thing as naturally occurring pure silicon.
	That means that this piece was manufactured in some way.
	Now, in the presentation that Dr. Russell Vernon Clark made today, he showed graphs in breaking down that in this nearly pure piece of silicon, that there are trace elements of nickel, zinc, germanium, and silver.
	And that, this is the interesting thing, that when they did analysis on all four of the trace elements, They found that the isotope ratios in all four cases were not terrestrial.
	Now the questions that have not been answered, and Paul David has just come in, who did a very fine presentation of this this morning in the auditorium, and I'm going to pose a couple of questions that were asked among the audience and let him go also into a summary now.
	Some people have said, That this could be an asteroid or it could be something that had fallen to the earth.
	So how could these anomalous isotope ratios in any way prove that this was in fact from a crashed disk?
	We have the same problem in proving it with the bismuth magnesium layered material.
	We can't prove that it came from a craft, but we're dealing with something that's highly anomalous.
	A second area is what is the chain of the source of the origin of the artifact.
	We all have this problem again.
	Now, Paul Davids, who is a TV producer who did the Roswell docudrama for Showtime that first aired in 1994, was the summary presenter in which Jesse Marcel Jr.
	also spoke today, in addition to Dr. Vernon Clark, and I think from The point of view of one of the most important things that Jesse Marcel Jr.
	said, thinking in terms of hearing his father and then hearing him, he said that he had had an opportunity to hold some portion of this piece, which Paul can talk about here in a moment, and said that the dark, very plastic-feeling piece that we saw a photograph of felt to him, Jesse Marcel Jr., similar and looked similar To what his father had laid out on the kitchen floor and table 50 years ago waking his family up at midnight to have them look at material that he said
	I've been retrieved from the crash of a flying saucer.
	Okay, Linda, let me see if I've got all this straight.
	You've got a piece of material, basically silicon mostly, which is glass, but with trace elements in it, several other trace elements, which have counts that show, isotopic counts that show that it is not from Earth, and that this is familiar to Jesse Marcel Jr.
	In terms of that lightness, Yes.
	Alright.
	Good.
	Alright.
	I remember when he and his father had talked about material that reminded them of the lightness
	of balsa wood.
	Yes.
	It felt like plastic.
	Okay, now I'm going to turn this over to Paul David's art.
	All right.
	Here he is.
	All right.
	Hi, good to talk to you again, Paul.
	Oh, you're right, and I'm sorry we've had trouble catching up with each other, but the schedule here has been madness.
	I heard it's madness, yes.
	I thought maybe I should elaborate a little bit on some of the description that Linda gave, because there's definitely more details to be filled in here about this material.
	And I didn't catch everything she said.
	The main element here, there's five elements involved.
	All right, may I stop you, Paul, and ask you a question?
	The larger piece of material, not the one you had tested, I assume you have a larger sample.
	Well, the piece is about one and a half inches long, and a very small portion of that at first was broken off.
	We're talking like a pencil tip.
	Sure.
	Well, you know, you don't want to destroy too much of this instructive test.
	Of course not.
	Let me take a little piece in Dr. Russell Vernon Clark of the University of San Diego, who is a chemist, PhD, with an extraordinary list of publications in his field.
	And his resume was made available to some members of the press today, and we certainly want to make it available, because he has the academic credentials.
	He, someone had reluctantly agreed to, at first, make some initial tests.
	On this, on his own time.
	And was given a very small sample, and the results really intrigued him because they warrant anything within the realm of expectation, so he asked for another sample.
	This was a blind test, by the way.
	He was given a bunch of pieces of debris, different things.
	Some of them, you know, just don't relate to anything having to do with this.
	And he picked this out as the one that just really seemed anomalous.
	So I went through a second battery of tests, and one of the key things to note here is that his tests have been replicated thoroughly through additional studies and generally very expensive studies done through the auspices and organization of Stanford University.
	The individual professors and people, they don't want to be involved personally at this point, but that was how it was done for the replication.
	The replication absolutely confirmed 100% what Dr. Russell Verne Clark had found.
	You've got five elements involved.
	You've got silicon.
	That's like 99.995% pure silicon.
	And the isotopic ratio is anomalous for silicon.
	99.995% pure silicon.
	And the isotopic ratio is anomalous for silicon.
	Now silicon just, it can be manufactured you see.
	But the isotopic ratio doesn't conform with normal, what you would normally expect.
	But here's the key.
	Here's the clincher.
	These other elements were trace elements.
	These four elements that were mentioned.
	Zinc, Nickel, Silver, and Germanium.
	And they were present in parts per billion.
	Parts per billion.
	Now we're talking about a few atoms here, a few atoms there.
	We're talking about the finest, most minute scattering of these elements through the silicon.
	Every single one of these four trace elements, in such minute amounts, had completely anomalous isotopic ratios.
	In other words, it didn't conform to earth-silver, which you'd find anywhere on earth, or earth-germanium, etc., etc.
	Now, then you come to the problem of manufacture.
	You deal first with the fact, and there has been a laboratory test on the manufacture issue, but we did not have a scientist here to present.
	No, we didn't present everything today.
	There's a lot that has been going on, research has been going on.
	Alright, well just let me ask you, what is the evidence of manufacture?
	First of all, you start with the appearance.
	Completely flat on one side, structured curves on two sides, and then you go into it microscopically.
	Right.
	And looking at it from a microscopic level, you see a structure to it that doesn't, according to a scientific report, relate to any sort of crystalline structure.
	It appears to be an artificially manufactured structure.
	Okay.
	And beyond that, there's an additional test, which considered the circumstances it would take to create something like this.
	And they determined that the temperatures required for this were so Intense.
	That you would be talking of temperatures on the level of an atomic explosion.
	But this is not the aftermath of something created from an atomic explosion because there's absolutely no radioactivity involved at all.
	So we don't have the temperatures to do it.
	There are scientists willing to assert that we can't make this.
	And we don't know how it was made.
	And it also has some other very unusual properties.
	Not all those unusual properties have been made public yet.
	And, Art, I hope you'll understand, this was the first volley today.
	Well, you have not received the kind of national press you should have received for something of this magnitude, and all I can tell you, Paul, I've been watching, the only thing I've seen on the networks, including CNN, is the typical milling around in the museum.
	CBS actually, Art, did run a piece on us today alongside the Pathfinder, a very good piece, in which they treated it very seriously, that here was important news out of Roswell, This piece has been asserted scientifically to be of manufactured extraterrestrial origin.
	They showed Jesse Marcel, who, as Linda has described, had felt from the first moment that this was put in his hand.
	That was what he had felt?
	It was the closest thing he'd ever seen to material that his father had shown him 50 years ago.
	Alright, last question.
	Important question.
	Chain of evidence.
	In other words, origin.
	Is there anything you can tell us at all about where the hell this came from?
	Art, that's the area that is most incomplete and has not been satisfactorily disclosed at this point.
	And I do believe it will be satisfactorily disclosed.
	Is it the kind of thing, Paul, where somebody anonymously mailed something or handed something to somebody?
	No, it's not that, Art.
	No, it's a very, very personal relationship.
	There's a military person involved who's a pensioner.
	People worry, are they going to lose their pension?
	No, of course I know.
	And so there's not a desire to immediately come forward, but it is tied through the assertions of the person who provided it to the base, and there is a connection to someone who was at The base at that time, but I don't have those details to disclose right now.
	Unfortunately, unfortunately, I think they will all come out, but you have to give it a little time.
	I think the point here is that manufacture, extraterrestrial manufacture, concrete evidence like this has never been made public before.
	Absolutely correct.
	Jim Courant came away from this and said he felt that we made history here today.
	Now, of course, a lot of the press doesn't agree with that, and they won't.
	Some of them were, you know, upset that they didn't get everything that they would be looking for.
	You know, that's the way it goes with these things.
	You start out with the first volley, and you keep probing deeper and deeper and deeper, but the point is, we completely demolished the Mogul Balloon Report today on Roswell.
	Jesse Marcel Jr.
	actually got together recently with Charles Moore, the head of the Mogul Project, and they discussed what Moore has claimed Paul, I've got to ask you to hold tight for a minute.
	We're at a break.
	All right, good.
	Paul David, executive producer of Roswell, and involved in revealing extraterrestrial origin material that came from Roswell earlier today.
	Not a trivial story.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AMX-3.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere In Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	And here we are live on what's left in this time zone of Independence Day.
	It's slipped away elsewhere.
	Good morning, I'm Art Bell.
	My guests presently, Paul Davids, the executive producer of Roswell, along with Linda Howe in Roswell.
	Coming up, Michael Hessemann in Roswell from Germany for the event.
	His book, Beyond Roswell, we'll get to that.
	And then later in the morning, Richard C. Hoagland, as you might have expected.
	Briefly now, back to Paul Davids.
	Paul?
	Are you there, Paul?
	I'm here.
	I've been doing your advertisements.
	I've been having a lovely discussion with Linda Moulton House.
	All right.
	So, of course, to sum up, Paul, you've got a piece of material showing totally anomalous isotope ratios, which would prove, you believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
	Let me say here, it's not a question of my belief.
	We're way beyond non-scientists like Paul Davids here.
	We've got Dr.
	Russell Vernon Clark of the University of San Diego Ph.D.
	in Chemistry has done all kinds of laboratory tests and then replicating tests have been arranged through Stanford University.
	These tests are finished and we've got the graph.
	Alright, well then he would say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, extraterrestrial origin.
	So you've got that.
	You've got down the part that it's manufactured.
	Yes.
	And the trail leading to where it came from is on the way to being... Well, yeah.
	I mean, the person who has provided the piece for scientific... who got it out there for the scientific analysis is privy to the origins of the piece.
	And it involves a retired military person.
	That's right.
	Someone who's on a pension and no retired person likes to take the chance of losing a pension.
	Look, I've talked to a lot of the older people here in Roswell.
	Some of them who do have documents on the Roswell case that would make your eyes pop out.
	Some of the older people have trusted me.
	They've shown me things that no one in the community has shown out there.
	They won't let it outside their house.
	I think it would be wrong.
	These documents were originally part of a classified operation.
	Nobody's given them permission to release this, but I've seen things signed by the principals of Roswell.
	All the things that the GAO was looking for.
	Not looking so hard, you know.
	They could have just... They wouldn't even have had to subpoena the people here in Roswell.
	They'd just send them a kind letter inviting them to come testify and bring their documents.
	And they'd have come with their box loads.
	Or, you know, files here and there.
	The stuff is out there.
	Sorry, Paul, you've been in the motion picture industry for a long time now.
	I'm sure you saw the Air Force's news conference prior to the whole anniversary, beginning of the anniversary in Roswell.
	Oh, I sure did.
	It was a major mistake on their part, unless it was a deliberate sort of passing of the torch to us, because they used these crash dummies as an explanation for Uh, bodies that were reported in Roswell in 1947.
	And they know that the crash dummy test happened between 1953 and 1959.
	Bad, bad, bad choreography.
	Look, neither you nor I have to have a law degree to say Hey, the judge ain't going to let that one fly, right?
	I hear you.
	Alright, listen.
	We don't have a lot of time, but I want to congratulate you.
	I also want to give you the opportunity so that if other media would like to contact you, this story really needs to get out.
	Well, we've been in touch with a lot of the press and we think it will, but you know, We're always open to suggestions from you, Art, and you have my number.
	I do.
	So in other words, you're saying let him contact me.
	Well, I'm sure you'll get some calls.
	I'm sure.
	While I'm on, please let me once again plug my new movie in 30 seconds just to tell people, remind them I made Timothy Leary's Dead, which is now playing in Berkeley at the California, in San Francisco at the Lumiere, just opened in San Jose, and it's in Cambridge now, and we're doing well in both those cities, and for everybody that remembers, the influence of timothy leary
	and uh...
	those uh... days we we all went through from the hate ashbury several of those of us who have to go to the other day
	uh... and uh...
	appointed look at the at the life of who this man really was i
	I urge them to go see my film and to support that.
	And I thank you for letting me mention that on the air.
	Thank you, Paul.
	And if you'll put Linda back on real quickly.
	I'll return her.
	All right.
	Here's Linda Moulton-Howe one more time.
	That was Paul Davids.
	Thank you, Paul.
	All right.
	Linda, I want to give you a second.
	Very quickly, I'm pulling a lot of time from Michael Hessman, who's being very patient.
	Yes, and I saw him at the banquet, and he said that he was going to be on tonight, too.
	I have had a chance to talk with him.
	Alright.
	You gave your presentation on the bismuth magnesium.
	Did you not?
	Tomorrow at 2 o'clock in the same auditorium that Paul did the presentation this morning, I will be doing a presentation of looking at what we have done the last 15 months and today I'm hoping that some of the same People who were there on this one and they appear to be interested will be coming because we have two completely separate issues here.
	We're dealing with completely different elements and the structural anomalies of our bismuth magnesium continue to baffle science.
	What they've got is that smoking gun that when I went to Carnegie Institute, we were looking to see if we could come up with some sort of an anomaly in isotope ratios.
	We couldn't find an anomaly in isotope ratios, which really is not surprising to most scientists you talk to, because most scientists are assuming that even extraterrestrials are dealing with the same elements that we see in spectroscopes throughout the universe.
	And so bismuth and magnesium may be exactly the same for something that was made maybe even in the solar system somewhere else.
	But the fact that they have got right now Some anomalous isotope ratios in something that is nearly pure silicon, which as far as we know could only come through a manufacturing process, makes whatever they've got intriguing.
	But we all have that same issue.
	How can we prove exactly where it came from?
	And in the business magnesium, I think in some ways it's actually a almost more provocative story because we have Some kind of a layering that would seem to be extremely purposeful and when you get into the areas of nanotechnology and what is being written in journals like Science and Nature about breakthroughs in nanotechnology, that one to four micron thickness of the bismuth is one of those magic dimensions that where they find that the atoms between the layered metals begin to have interaction and that the metals layered together begin to have a different
	function with each other in these thin layers than they do separately and here we've got material that falls into that
	category So two big stories from Roswell really? Yeah, yeah, and I
	think or put a different way to hard science stories
	That's it exactly and if the media would quit would would get out of the museums for five minutes and
	Either go listen to the presentation earlier today or the one you're going to make tomorrow
	there will be some good that will come out of this.
	That's right.
	It is the hard science that is emerging right now, 50 years after the government tried to clean up everything so no one would have anything to study.
	And yet, just as any of us, I think, if we'd been out on one of these strange recovery operations, it would have been difficult, wouldn't it?
	Not to have picked something up and slipped it into your pocket.
	And apparently, apparently, some of these things are emerging 50 years later that are so highly anomalous and that are provoking, like in the case of the Bismuth Magnesium, I think that this audience should understand that there have been a lot of scientists who have contacted me after they have heard about the specs on this material.
	It means we have something that is genuinely provocative in terms of its structure And then can we establish function by the test that we're going to run?
	So we have at least now two areas, the anomalies in the isotope ratios, and that's going to be an evolving story.
	And we've got the bismuth magnesium that is so unusual in its structure, how it was made, and what its function might be.
	And all of this may keep opening up on the civilian end, the fact that there can be hard scientific research That we ourselves are discovering things that are beginning to move us closer and closer to what I would consider to be harder evidence that we're dealing with materials
	Uh... that uh... may not have been made by us.
	Alright, Linda, thank you so much for the update tonight.
	Bless your heart and please thank Paul Davids.
	The two big stories from Roswell are the ones that they ought to be going to cover.
	And yes, I'm a lightning rod, so if somebody wants to contact me from one of the networks and would like to talk to Paul Davids or yourself, Yes, I would agree, Art.
	presentation you're going to give tomorrow or the one given today
	that too big stories uncovered uh... uh... basically except perhaps
	by cbs roswell contact me and i'll put you in touch with the right people
	but the big news is here not in the people milling around linda yes i would agree
	art and one thing that was made a very interesting point today in one of the press
	conferences it was a reporter
	who said why is it that the science reporter for the new york times
	run with the air force release and put on the front page of the new york times
	the newspaper of records for the world is the dummies and the story
	not ever having the ability to do research on that story at all in those
	twenty four hours And that this is, it sums up the problem.
	When something like the New York Times will put those photographs of the dummies on the page, but when something as important as these presentations of hard physical data on material, they don't.
	And Colonel Corso had a wonderful conversation with him tonight, Art.
	I'm very much looking forward to Art doing a long, good Dreamland with him and with Mr. Burns.
	All of that coming up this Sunday on Dreamland.
	Linda, bless your heart.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, Art.
	And good night in Roswell.
	That is Linda Moulton Howe from Roswell.
	And I want to thank her for being here.
	So let us now proceed.
	Let's see if I can get everything done right here.
	And in a moment, Michael Hesselman also, everybody that is, seems to be from Roswell.
	and that's where he is in a moment.
	By the way, in no way do I mean to put down the museums and all the fun people are having in Roswell.
	I'm simply trying to point out that, without a doubt, the big stories that ought to be coming out of Roswell involve obviously now proven extraterrestrial origin material and the bismuth magnesium material that is going to be presented scientifically tomorrow.
	These are the stories that should be coming from Roswell, not the people with the alien hats and the tinfoil and the rest of it.
	Now, comes Michael Hessman.
	With Beyond Roswell, we now have a possible public demonstration of the long-rumored notion that alien lifeforms have come here.
	Let's call upon government to end the cover-up now and tell us the truth.
	I'm reading from the back cover of the book.
	We have a right to know.
	My father, and I'm quoting Jesse Marcel Jr., thought as much for Mom and me that night in 1947, even more so is the case for all of us citizens of planet Earth half a century later, Jesse Marcel.
	Author of the book, Michael Hessman, is a cultural anthropologist and editor of magazine 2000.
	His books, Inside UFOs, The Evidence, A Cosmic Connection and UFOs, A Secret Matter, and now, of course, Beyond Roswell.
	He comes to us from Roswell, though he just arrived, I believe.
	He lives in Dusseldorf, Germany.
	Here is Michael Hessman.
	Michael, welcome.
	Yes, thank you very much, Art, and indeed, all the world of morphology is at one place right now, in Roswell.
	Is it everything you expected it would be, Michael?
	Actually, it is much more, and today, the press conference at 9 o'clock, which Linda and Paul were talking about, it was amazing.
	I tell you, I was in the audience all the time, and I saw so many television crews from all over the world, including three different crews from Germany and German journalists and whatever from every paper you can imagine.
	And if indeed nobody writes about it, if indeed the world only gets the images of, you know, the funny people with the funny hats, then there is a cover-up, not from the government side, Surely also from the government side, but also from the media who don't want to tell the people to talk about UFOs for whatever reason.
	So, in other words, you were impressed also, then, with the hard evidence presented.
	Oh, very much.
	And Paul Davids did a tremendous job in really presenting a well-documented case.
	I mean, he did it in a very professional way, showing films, film interviews, and whatever.
	And then we have the scientists presenting hard scientific data.
	And I know the fragment for two years now, and it is in the book.
	We have the full story in the book, and beyond Russia.
	And we did some preliminary testing, just simple testing in San Marino at the UFO conference one year ago.
	And then we found out that indeed it has all the characteristics we have of the alien material in the Santilli
	footage.
	And in the debris footage, which is part of the alien autopsy material.
	And there we have a member of the retrieval team handling debris.
	And the debris was extremely shiny, extremely reflective, and very lightweighted.
	And obviously, we analyzed the pieces, the areas where it was broken.
	Obviously, it was material with a very fine crystalline structure.
	And we have an analysis done from the images from the film by Professor Cornado Malanga of the University of Pisa, who is a professor for chemistry and metallurgy, and he came to the conclusion that indeed we have a very exotic material here, but you could never replicate this effect through, let's say, any kind of conventional special effects technique.
	And now we have a piece of metal which is highly reflective, very lightweighted, and very, very hard.
	A friend of mine had a titanium watch on this conference, and we were able to scratch titanium like, let me say, like butter, and he still has this big mark in his watch, and because this material is so strong.
	And from all the alleged Russell Fragment, which, you know, surfaced in the world of ufology in the last two years.
	And this is the one which, indeed, impressed me most.
	Michael, let me ask you this.
	Why does somebody from Germany write a book about something that happened in the American desert?
	How did you come to get interested in something that occurred over here?
	You know, since my childhood I'm looking for Evidence or indications that indeed we are not alone and that the UFO phenomenon is real.
	And I'm traveling all over the world to investigate the UFO phenomenon.
	I was traveling more than 300,000 miles in the last three years, just in search of the truth about UFOs.
	And fortunately, I have a job, a profession, as editor of a magazine, 2000, the leading magazine for science on the European market.
	You know, with this background, I could do whatever I want to do.
	I could, you know, just travel.
	This is my job.
	This is my profession.
	And the Rochville case, from the very beginning, was a very promising case.
	And I visited Rochville the first time in 1992, and I interviewed witnesses like Glenn Dennis, Robert Shockey, Walter Hart, and so on and so far.
	But when, in 1995, the healing autopsy footage surfaced and we heard the first
	rumors coming from England.
	And it was my advantage to be one hour away from London by plane and I live in Desseldorf in Germany
	and I called Mr. Ventilli. I flew over, I saw the film and I had the possibility to communicate
	with him on a regular basis and get information.
	No one has thought... Oh, well, when was the last time that you talked to Ray Santilli?
	It was about two weeks ago.
	About two weeks ago.
	Before we got the film in America, there were a couple of still photographs, which I was the first one to receive, and we put them up on the World Wide Web.
	And I also interviewed Mr. Santilli before the film ever got here.
	And so, you've obviously had a lot more communication with Mr. Santilli, and I want to talk to you about that, and I want to talk to you about the Alien Autopsy film as well.
	But we're coming up here toward the top of the hour, so I'm going to ask you to hold on.
	We'll be back after the top of the hour news, alright?
	I'm looking forward to it.
	Alright.
	Michael Hessman is my guest.
	Beyond Roswell is the book authored by Michael Hessman and Philip Mantle.
	Um, so, the Santilli connection is going to be what we are going to explore next.
	The alien autopsy, which, by the way, as far as I know, has had no definitive holes shot in it, even after all this time.
	Plenty of shooting, but no holes.
	None I've seen.
	I'm Art Bell.
	From the high desert, it's gonna be quite a night.
	Later on tonight, Richard Hoagland commenting on Pathfinder.
	I would have said the apparent success of Pathfinder, but I didn't.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	This is a remastered version of the original song.
	Shiny night and the lights are low, looking out for a place to go.
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired July 4th, 1997.
	Good evening from the high desert.
	It's great to be here.
	There's several simultaneous stories that we're following this evening.
	In hour one, we have Linda Moulton Howe and Paul Davids reporting on the incredible, incredible revelations today at Roswell, a news conference in which A San Diego University professor from the University of California at San Diego said that this piece that he has examined absolutely has isotope ratios not of Earth origin.
	It is a manufactured piece.
	The origins of which, according to Paul Davids, come from a retired military person who soon will come forward.
	So, that's big news.
	Linda Moulton Howe will do a news conference later Tomorrow, in this time zone, about two o'clock in Roswell, on the Bismuth Magnesium findings.
	These are the two big stories that should be coming from Roswell.
	About 90% of the faxes I'm getting say, hey Art, I haven't seen any coverage of the Roswell News Conference.
	There was a bit on KSDO Radio, Kogo's sister in San Diego, because of the origin, no doubt, of the science.
	And there was apparently a CBS story.
	But other than that, we've been seeing tinfoil hats, museum stuff, and crowds milling around in Roswell.
	The hard science story is not coming out, but everything else is.
	No surprise there.
	Item 2, Pathfinder.
	I personally believe that NASA has done it.
	That's my opinion.
	I spoke earlier with Richard C. Hoagland.
	And we're going to let him have his say at 1 o'clock.
	Richard will be here at 1 o'clock Pacific.
	And he will discuss the Pathfinder business.
	But I want to congratulate NASA because I believe they have done it, and nearly flawlessly so.
	The pictures are superb.
	I contacted, at the behest of Richard Hoagland, Wayne Green.
	And we may try to get Wayne Green on.
	Wayne, if you're out there, contact me.
	I've got a message on your machine right now.
	Wayne returned a fax to me, regarding... I asked Wayne, at the request of Richard Hoagland, to check on the signal, just in case.
	The signal coming from Mars.
	And Wayne returned the following.
	Art, I checked with my VHF editor and his friends, testing a new 27 meter dish, which checked out the Mars signal yesterday, And found them right where they should have been.
	That dish has a very narrow reception pattern, so it's quite accurate.
	Thus, it looks as if Dick's predictions and theories of a July 20th landing have not panned out.
	That's from Wayne Green.
	And again, I do.
	I believe personally that they have done it.
	That is not necessarily the view of Richard Hoagland, and you'll get an opportunity to hear that.
	My guest, Michael Hessman, has authored a book, co-authored a book, actually, with Philip Mantle called Beyond Roswell.
	And we're going to go back and talk a little bit about the Santilli film, the autopsy film, because, of course, Michael uh... was from dusseldorf germany
	was right there when all of it began to break in the hopped over to uh... london
	and took a look before any of the rest of us got to see it and
	back down to michael has been in uh... roswell new mexico And, Michael, I want to get it right.
	How should I say your last name?
	Is it Hess-man or Hess-a-man?
	Both way, and whatever you prefer.
	The German way is the man, but it is rather difficult to pronounce, so whatever you prefer.
	All right.
	Well, I'll say Hess-man and get close.
	Perfect.
	Michael, you met with Ray Santilli very early after the release of the Alien Autopsy film.
	Actually, long before.
	Before, yeah, that's right.
	Before the U.S.
	release, certainly.
	Right, right.
	And you saw it.
	What were your first impressions?
	I was not sure at all.
	I believe either it is a very good hope or it is the real thing.
	I have to find the truth.
	The truth is out there, so go for it.
	You know, the only way to do any kind of research in the beginning, before I had a copy of the tape, of the video, was to check the story of the cameraman.
	And certainly, Ray Santilli gave me the cameraman's story written down from, you know, the notes he made.
	And I was able to, you know, go here to New Mexico and try to check it out, try to find out If the details in it, if the geography, if the crash site, all these things fit.
	And this was the first step of my research before I had a copy of the film.
	And I got from the cameraman, from Ray Pantelli, a very detailed description where it all happened.
	Okay, you did not meet with the cameraman?
	I never met the cameraman.
	Okay.
	Has anybody ever met the cameraman?
	Oh, yeah.
	Actually, yes.
	Another thing is, the producers of the Alien Autopsy Factor Fiction piece on Fox, they met the son of the cameraman, who brought them a tape with an interview with the cameraman, which hopefully will be released soon on American television.
	And it was already shown on Japanese television, and you can clearly recognize the man.
	His picture is on the internet all over the world right now.
	It is just a question of time until someone will identify him and we will know where he lives.
	I have an idea where he lives, but I'm respecting his privacy.
	So you know who he is?
	I don't have his address and phone number, but I have an idea where he is living, in which part of the country he is living, and what his real name is.
	Alright.
	With all the investigation you've done on the Santilli film, today, do you uh... lean more toward it being genuine or a fake
	definitely and i no no i'm asking which
	and now i mean definitely a and into a three-hour to fifty-nine on ninety five percent
	who worked at the briefing
	and uh... i'll tell you why from the very beginning the alien autopsy photos with
	heavily attacked from the american local community of course i think that's an
	important first of all i can't get free from our denying anything
	happened in rosswell is that
	quoting the u of f of the balloon baloney and then to uh... the apology for damage republic
	throughout a few weeks ago about time-traveling crash test on the above whatever they
	claim it was and uh... the bank and jeffrey
	and thought of him on may the fifth nineteen ninety five on the preview
	in the london theater in london england And his first command is, it has to be a fake, because the being looks humanoid, and no alien can look humanoid.
	Well, let me correct you just on one point.
	Uh, not time travel.
	The Air Force talked about time compression.
	I know, I know, I'm joking.
	A very humorous, very humorous... All over the world, we are joking about this explanation, and I have my own version of it, but indeed, they did the time travel experiment in 1953.
	They, you know, sent those Well, I also saw a very nice cartoon in which it showed two aliens in a saucer, one saying, oh my god, we're gonna crash, and the other said, okay, throw out the Air Force dummies now.
	I love it.
	hallelujah well i also saw a very nice cartoon in which it showed uh... two
	aliens in a saucer say one saying oh my god we're gonna crash and the other said
	okay i'll throw out the air force dummies now i love it i love it
	i mean everybody makes jokes about it all over the world and
	So, I mean, the U.S.
	Air Force definitely did a very great contribution to comedy, and I congratulate them for that.
	I see.
	Alright, so you think that a 95% chance it is authentic.
	My next question is, do you think the cameraman, so important, is going to finally decide to come forward And tell his story.
	You know, there's a nice Chinese proverb, and it says, it is difficult to prophesy, especially the future.
	And I can't tell you.
	I just don't know.
	I know the situation in which he's living.
	He's living in a neighborhood of retired military people like him.
	And, you know, besides of his pension, besides of whatever legal follow-up, because At least he got a large amount of money and didn't pay the tax for it.
	The real reason why he's not going public is that he didn't want his neighbors to think that he did something illegal, something wrong.
	He doesn't want to be isolated in the neighborhood and the community where he's living and where his friends are and everything.
	And this is the main reason.
	All right, now what about Ray Santilli himself?
	I interviewed Ray from England long, you know, as the news was breaking.
	And he admitted to me on the phone, he said, sure, I'm a, you know, I'm a film person and I want to make money.
	And he said that straight out.
	And I presume he said the same thing to you.
	So he did.
	And I said, Ray, I mean, Look, you can make more money if the thing is verified, so please cooperate with me.
	If you don't cooperate with me, it's up to you, but, you know, it's good for you, too.
	Of course, I never got anything from him.
	I don't want a percentage.
	I didn't, you know, I didn't want anything from him.
	Of course not.
	I want to know the truth.
	But he finally realized what a careful, let me say, nearly scientific investigation of the Well, can you tell me whether any of the actual film has been examined?
	and uh... you know both in the local community would be able to reach out to
	publish papers full of uh...
	mistake and uh...
	after all of them allegations and whatever well do you can you tell me
	whether any of the actual film has been examined i know they gave a piece of the
	leader of the film uh... somebody who analyzes and said well yes you know this
	came from the nineteen forties
	they had a piece that had images on it including the entrance of the autopsy
	Oh, really?
	We didn't get any piece of the film with a being on it, but we do have some of the first frames which the cameraman shot to test the camera, and then how it was functioning under the lighting conditions and whatever.
	Most cameramen at that time did some test shooting before.
	And what were the results?
	First of all, it was tested chemically by Professor Corrado Malanga of the University of Tegla in Italy, and by Bob Schell, the editor of Shutterbug Magazine, the leading photographic magazine in the USA, and both came to the same conclusion.
	It is a film based on acetate propionate, which is a chemical film based used by Kodak until 1956.
	So the film is definitely older than 40 years.
	And I mean, if you keep this in mind, and and we planned to try and do it with the product marking
	for nineteen forty seven then you can really say
	it from the right time frame by it is there any way for them to determine on
	other words we know it's old film stock at least we know that is there any way
	they can determine when the film
	was exposed if him but then
	but that would be it and safety film
	a very sensitive spin.
	And you can't use it for more than two years because then you would get a grey image because of the fogging, the cosmic radiation, whatever.
	And you would not have these clear images if this was the old film.
	So in other words, the only way... I can say that the film was exposed and developed within two years.
	After its fabrication.
	All right, but I've heard people say, Michael, that if the film was kept in a shielded, refrigerated unit, that it might have still been viable many, even decades later.
	Is that true?
	Maybe one decade, maybe two, but not four.
	Not four.
	All right, so then the evidence leads toward the authenticity.
	The other point is, we showed the film to pathologists all over the world.
	From the USA, to Italy, to Russia, everywhere.
	And I did not meet a single pathologist on the planet who said it is a dummy.
	95% of all pathologists say it is a biological, real-life form, but not a member of the human race like you and me.
	We have one German dermatologist, Professor Jansen, who believes it is a child with chest progeria, which is a herbal genetic disorder that children They are aging quicker and become really like old people
	and they are lying with 15, 16.
	But we showed it to other experts and they all denied this possibility because in progeria
	the muscles are declining too, the skin is getting old and so on and so far and you don't
	have this on the being in the alien autopsy.
	It has very hard muscles and fresh, smooth skin.
	And another point is we have these eyelashes where we're moving in the film.
	Right.
	Of course, no child would have it.
	And we have six digits on the hands and the feet.
	And we do have emboliductalism, which is another genetic disorder, but children have six fingers or six feet, six toes, sorry.
	But we had the very first case in the history of medicine of a girl born with six fingers and six toes in England a couple of months ago and all the media reported about it.
	Normally they have it either on the hands or on the feet.
	And normally the sixth finger or toe is the crippled one.
	It's not in the harmonic curve of the other fingers.
	Yes.
	So, if, you know, the possibility and the probability to have a young girl with a genetic disorder and the second genetic disorder, polydactylism, and being the unique case in history before the English case, I mean, this probability is so extremely low that even the probability and that it's a factor of canyon crash is not much much
	higher and especially under the circumstances i mean we have a
	film of a professional performed autopsy
	so definitely a bit but really be and younger over the genetic disorder
	it would be in the medical literature it is not
	no one could verify it you are in rosswell so you can clearly see
	uh...
	the uh...
	ufo mania going on in the united states here right now uh...
	warm What is the difference between what's going on here and in Europe?
	With the Santilli film coming out in Europe, did it get a lot of publicity?
	Was it a big deal or not?
	Oh, definitely it was a very big deal.
	It was on major television stations all over the continent.
	Italian television did a very, very good and careful job.
	You've got to say good and close to the phone for me, Michael.
	Oh, sorry.
	Italian television did a very good and very careful job.
	They dedicated two hours on every day, one after the other.
	Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
	Altogether, it was a six-hour documentation.
	They had all the leading pathologists of the country looking into the film and commenting on it.
	Monsignor Balducci of the Vatican, commenting the film, and so on and so far.
	And French television did a very fine investigation, British television, Channel 4, and so on.
	So, in Germany, all the media reported about it.
	In Europe, in general, the film caused a lot of attention.
	The difference between the UFO debate in Europe and in the U.S.
	is, in America, it became more a part of the pop culture.
	In Europe, you would never find this kind of UFO carnival you find here in Roswell, New Mexico right now.
	And some people call it the UFO trash at Roswell.
	And in Europe, the debate is more on a rational, scientific level.
	Well, you know, I long for that here.
	All right, Michael, hold on.
	Michael Hessman is my guest.
	He's from Dusseldorf, Germany.
	He's co-authored Beyond Roswell.
	And we're talking now about the Santilli film.
	And now the difference between coverage of ufology in general in the U.S.
	and Europe.
	There, they don't chuckle.
	They don't laugh.
	They take it seriously, and they report it seriously.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Music playing.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Good morning.
	We're going to activate the live studio cam in about 25 minutes, but I wanted to mention again that you'll see a picture of my spa up there right now on the live studio cam.
	I went out today, took a little video, brought it back in here, and snapped one up to the web.
	So, that's my spot, the one I always talk about up there.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	radio networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Alright, back now to Michael Hessman, who co-authored with Philip Mantle, Beyond Roswell,
	And Michael, are you there?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Remember now, stay good and close to the phone for him.
	That's very important.
	Look, I am getting from several sources who wish to remain anonymous right now that Ray Santilli is getting ready to release more film.
	That he has in his possession more film.
	What do you know?
	I know he definitely has more film in his possession.
	He has the first autopsy, which is about seven or eight minutes long.
	And this film was taken on the 1st of July.
	The autopsy we all know and love was taken on the 3rd of July.
	And this film, it belongs, the original film, the rights belong to a business partner of him.
	And he managed to convince his business partner to release a part of it.
	And we will, you know, we will see it in the next few months.
	We will see it?
	We will.
	Alright, if you take the alien autopsy, which, and I have yet to see any big holes chopped in it, Michael, credibility-wise, let's cover a couple of things.
	The telephone cord, for example.
	People have said, ah, there was no curly cord like that.
	AT&T confirmed to Time magazine Not to any ufologist, to Time Magazine, but they had the curly cord on the market since 1938.
	The telephone is a 1946 model.
	Okay.
	Alright, now I've got another big one here for you.
	If you look at the Santilli film, you will see a warning sign on the wall.
	I have heard that the graphic design for that warning sign was not even invented or done until way after 1947.
	Have you heard anything about that?
	Actually, we could verify that they had this type of warning sign in the 1940s, even during World War II.
	Even during World War II?
	Yes.
	So is there... It started in 1945.
	Okay, Michael, is there anything at all about the Santilli film that you can find fraudulent?
	Anything?
	No, and I tried to find something.
	You know, as a journalist, I have to find the truth, and I don't care if the truth is positive or negative.
	I mean, if I would find a smoking gun for fake, if I would reveal it to the people, great, wonderful.
	It's a beautiful story. So I check everything out from both sides. I even spent a long time following up
	the claims of all these debunkers and skeptics and whatever.
	I give you an example. I mean Ken Jeffrey, the head of the International Russia Initiative,
	who now is one of the debunkers, he claimed that if the film would have been taken in 1947 by a
	claimed that if the film would have been taken in 1947 by a military cameraman, it would be a color film, not a black
	military cameraman, it would be a color film, not a black and white film. Now
	and white film.
	Now we have a copy of the Kodak manual from 1945, which still was the bible for all photographers in 1947,
	we have a copy of the Kodak manual from 1945, which still was the bible for all photographers
	in 1947, and it gives the recommendation which type of film you should use. And it
	and it gives the recommendation which type of film you should use, and it says for surgical procedures and all
	kinds of indoor filming without studio conditions.
	You should use super double X high speed panchromatic film, which is a black and white film, because at that time they
	only had color film which was very insensitive, and you could only use it either for outdoor photography or
	for studio conditions, you know, like in Hollywood, but not for normal indoor shooting without professional lighting.
	All right.
	If you take the alien autopsy film that you consider to be credible, and the film yet to come, and what happened today in Roswell at the news conference, what Linda Howe is going to say tomorrow at a news conference, and all of the breaking news, when, Michael, do you think all of this will reach a critical boiling point and somebody is going to finally say, It's true.
	It has to be true.
	There's overwhelming evidence.
	We have it now, that we have been visited, and all of this cover-up might end.
	When do you think that might happen?
	I hope soon.
	I mean, you forgot one major point, a major revelation that you will have on your own show in two days.
	And this is Colonel Corso.
	And I met him tonight and I spent half an hour with him doing a preliminary interview with him.
	I will interview him in detail tomorrow afternoon.
	And I was so highly impressed by the integrity of this very nice, very friendly old gentleman.
	And I read his book.
	I believe he is telling the truth.
	And he claims in a book that he got all the documentation about number one the eyelashes were removed from the being's
	eyes you can see it on the alien autopsy footage
	and but he did work and did get reports about the panels with the hand imprints yes um you know the ones that look
	like a man's china theater okay and um both he saw during his time
	working for the foreign technology division And we have more eyewitnesses.
	Well, I'm looking forward to interviewing Colonel Corso.
	If you interviewed him, I want to ask you a question.
	Toward the end of an interview on Dateline NBC, Colonel Corso said something about a time machine or time travel.
	Did you ask him about that?
	I did.
	Professor Hermann Obert, the teacher of Wernher von Braun, the man who brought the Americans to the moon, Professor Hermann Obert told him that he believes it is not really a spaceship, meaning something which went through the three-dimensional time-space continuum, but these objects are rather a type of time machine which travels beyond the fourth dimension and who travel through Some kind of, let me say, hyperspace outside of the time-space continuum.
	Oh, no, I understand.
	So that's what he meant.
	So he does not believe they come from our future, but they are just not functioning in the three-dimensional time-space continuum.
	So that's what he meant.
	Actually, I met Professor Herman Hobart before he died in 1990, and he was a very lovable old gentleman, and he was in the 90s when he died.
	He was a firm believer in UFOs and he knew they were real and he wanted to learn more about the motive and the reason why they are coming.
	Actually, he interviewed a lot of contactees and he tried to get in contact through, today we would say, remote viewing and so on and so far, already in the 1970s.
	professor hammond over indeed and i can say it from our own contact with him i
	can confirm that uh...
	a chronic cause of claims indeed was very much on the front line of the ufo research and he
	was a member of the german
	and ufo study organization well i i think that's a very important point
	because uh... it was a very good interview uh...
	except for that very last part and they did not give him an opportunity to explain that
	and they used that comment to debunk the uh... of the entire story
	Typical.
	Typical is right.
	And you say in Europe they don't do that.
	The media do.
	I told you, what I mean is that in America the UFO law is more part of the pop culture.
	In Europe, you would never have a UFO costume contest or, you know, all those kind of fun things, which I enjoy here in Roswell.
	Nothing bad about it.
	Well, there is one thing bad about it, Michael.
	The media uses it.
	Of course, that's true.
	I mean, it's nice that families have fun.
	Nothing bad about this.
	But the impression, the message given to the people is that here we have, you know, nuts and loonies of the world unite.
	And what was New Mexico became a big mental institution.
	So, this is the bad thing about it.
	But, I mean, as I say, in Europe discussion is just more academic.
	But the media, the European media, are as naughty as the American media are and as unfair.
	Unfortunately, they're even manipulating their own news.
	Well, alright.
	Uh, let me, uh, let me ask you this.
	Um, your own question a minute ago, you said, everybody wants to know why they're here.
	I do too.
	Um, and if they really are here, why we're getting this slow time capsule release, uh, sightings, uh, proof, uh, why not just land and, um, The governments are afraid to lose control.
	If there's a higher authority, somebody so far beyond in everything, not only in technology and everything, who will still believe that our scientists, our priests, our politicians are Really the ones who have everything under control.
	Well, you're giving me the reason for the cover-up now.
	Right.
	But let me ask you, why do you think they are here?
	Why do you think we are being visited?
	And I firmly believe, I mean the case for UFOs is case closed.
	There are UFOs.
	I'm not sure what they are, but they're definitely there.
	I've seen two.
	Right.
	Why do you think they're here?
	You know, in After 50 years of UFO research, I mean, not by myself, but by the governments and the UFO community, we did not find any real indication of a hostile intention that they're preparing an invasion or whatever.
	We do have a lot of indication that they are here on a kind of, let me say, scientific, even experimental mission.
	I mean, even the abduction phenomenon and the cattle mutilation phenomenon rather indicate a scientific project, like we do experiments with animals, but they do not really intend a hostile intention, even if the diverse scenarios are right, but they create hybrids because they are dying on the planet.
	I can say, okay, Isn't it nice?
	I mean, they could land here and eliminate mankind like in Independence Day and what they're trying to do with, you know, to mate with us and to share the planet.
	So, I mean, I can't really see something bad behind it.
	And I believe the most... I mean, we have many alien civilizations coming.
	I mean, we have so many different types of beings.
	Not only the typical little greys.
	Which you find everywhere in the American media, but if you travel around the world, you find people who, net giants, people who are, you know, nine feet tall.
	In Israel, for example, we had a couple of landings, beautiful landings, observed by credible witnesses, including the security chief of a village called Yitzhak, near Tel Aviv, and so on and so far.
	Yet being nine feet tall, yet being humanoid-looking like you and me, And we have the Little Grey, so we have different types of aliens coming to our planet, definitely with different agendas.
	Alright, do you believe that the aliens that crashed at Roswell, and the alien in the Alien Autopsy film, do you believe these are the real alien beings, or do you think these are some sort of bio-engineered What's the word?
	Hello, Robert.
	Yes?
	This is what Corso indicated in his book, and I think it is a very good possibility.
	I mean, we can say for sure that a being on the alien autopsy footage is a biological entity, but there are still many questions about the way how this being is functioning.
	He is an engineered biological entity?
	Right, that's what I mean.
	That's what I mean.
	This is the possibility.
	And before I have read the Autopsy Report, and I didn't yet, and I'm sorry about this, but I didn't, I can't answer your question.
	I can definitely say that some of them seem to be real human beings, but the Little Greys might be a type of biorobots.
	I mean, sometimes abductees talk about a kind of collective behavior with no individuality.
	and among the great and uh...
	this could indicate that they are just programed in a special way
	i can only tell you i don't know about it it is a possibility of a record
	i want to ask you are you live uh... in a place called corrupt nevada
	michael which is way out in the desert and not very far from the infamous area fifty one
	which of course our government does not admit even exists Even during the Air Force News Conference, they could not, and would not, answer questions about Area 51.
	What do you know about Area 51?
	Uh, and what do you believe is going on out there?
	Look, I interviewed, um, three people who worked inside of Area 51.
	First of all, Buckler Barr, whom you all know and love.
	And second, Bill Ewhaus, who was a mechanical design engineer.
	Okay, stay close to the phone.
	I can't hear you.
	Okay, the second one was Bill Ewhaus, who was a mechanical design engineer.
	And the third one was Derek Hennessy, a security guard, who worked on Level 3 underground, pardon me, Level 2 underground in Area S-4, which is close to Area 51.
	It is at Papoose Dry Lake.
	Yes.
	And all of them confirmed, that indeed, The U.S.
	government has at least nine crashed, retrieved alien disks, and they have contact with living aliens there.
	And all the witnesses I mentioned knew or saw even a living alien.
	And now we have these guys in California who claim that somebody who worked in Area 51, an informant with a code name Victor, And you interviewed him in your show as far as I know.
	Yes.
	But they have a film of a kind of an interview with a living alien.
	And when I saw the film for the first time in April, I was very, very astonished because the being looked very similar to a drawing he had from a military document, which allegedly came from the South African Air Force Intelligence.
	We don't know for sure if the document is authentic or not.
	But the connection, the film taken in 1990 or 1991 allegedly, the Kalahari crash in 1989, there might be a connection.
	So, we also have the reports of the people living there and working there.
	We have people who, after they saw the Ray Santilli alien autopsy footage and the debris footage, which is a part of it, who recognized the debris, who recognized especially the panels with the hand imprints.
	And two of them, two of the witnesses which we met and we quoted in the book, they saw this kind of debris in Area 51.
	So I personally believe they brought everything from the UFO crash at Rossford, the one at Socorro, and later ones into Area 51, including the alien bodies and maybe surviving aliens.
	Do you believe that these materials are still there?
	Oh, definitely.
	Definitely, they are still somewhere in the possession of the American military.
	But as far as I know, they removed it from Area 51 after Area 51 got such a public intention and hype, media hype.
	And as far as I know, all this is now in an area called Tonopah.
	Tonopah.
	Yes, Tonopah Nevada.
	We certainly know Tonopah.
	Let me ask you this, Michael.
	Is there an equivalent in Europe, anywhere, to our Area 51?
	We don't have an area in Europe so large, which can be totally cordoned off from the public.
	So, we don't have an Area 51.
	There is a base in England, in the south of England, in Wiltshire, where allegedly they brought the Freckles and the And that alien beings from a UFO crash in Wales.
	But I mean, these are rumors and we don't have any evidence for it.
	They definitely don't have an area that they are back engineering and copy engineering alien craft and so on and so far.
	Definitely not.
	But we might have something like this in the Soviet Union and the former Soviet Union and Russia.
	Yes.
	Do you know what the Russians knew about Russia Just a week later, Stalin, the Russian dictator, he commissioned Sergei Koryev, the Soviet Werner von Braun, the rocket constructor, to check these UFO reports and to form an investigation committee, the Soviet MJ-12, so to say, and they came to the conclusion, according to
	An article in the Soviet media in 1992, and they came to the conclusion that indeed, the UFO phenomenon is real, it is not a threat to the Soviet Union, but it might be of alien origin.
	And I know from General Shetnikov, who is the head of the Academy of Air Defense in Russia, in Tver, east of Moscow, I know that since 1947, until today, They do have a UFO research project.
	Alright, Michael, how long are you going to be in the US?
	I will be here until Friday.
	Friday of next week.
	Friday of next week.
	Well, uh, welcome to our country.
	Thank you for the very different look at all of the same material that we've been wondering about, and confirmation of much which we've been rumored about.
	Thank you, Michael.
	Thank you very much, Mark, and keep on your good work, and we have a lot on you in Germany, and as I say, we all admire you because you really have care.
	Take care my friend.
	I'll be back.
	I'm sorry.
	Music You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from July 4th, 1997.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Coming up in a moment, Richard C. Oglin.
	I told you, one way or the other, he'd be here.
	It would appear, in my opinion, as though NASA has done it.
	They are on Mars, but there is late breaking news.
	Dear Art, NASA managers at JBL wrapped up their Mars Pathfinder operations tonight with the revelation of a communications problem between the spacecraft Lander and the rover Sojourner.
	The lander and rover are not properly communicating with each other.
	Officials express confidence they will solve the trouble, but acknowledge that the mission's science objectives are seriously threatened by this problem.
	Briefing at 1 p.m.
	Eastern Daylight Time, later today.
	Well, that's kind of ominous, and that's late news.
	At any rate, The earlier news, seemingly flawless until this moment, regarding the Pathfinder mission.
	Down she went.
	It was a beautiful thing to watch.
	And being a layman, I found myself quite convinced that indeed we are on Mars.
	Richard C. Hoagland, as you know, thought that the mission would in some way be aborted, delayed.
	The actual landing would be on the 20th, not on July 4th, and probably at Cydonia, or possibly at Cydonia, not at the original landing point.
	He will speak of that and take your questions coming up in a moment.
	Now, not to Manhattan, New York, but to a new, as yet undisclosed, location in the Southwest.
	Here is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	It is, once again, an honor to have you on the program, Richard.
	I told everybody you would be here, come hell or high water, and here you are.
	So, let us, to some degree, discuss the events of the day.
	Now, you heard me read the late news of some very apparently serious problem.
	Yeah, I actually saw the press conference on CNN, which was a couple of hours ago, and I'm well aware of the technical problems that they have raised at the last minute here.
	We won't know anything until tomorrow.
	If you look at the celestial mechanics in terms of where the Spacecraft is supposed to be on Mars and where the Earth is.
	Earth will not rise for the lander and the rover until early afternoon, a little bit later than this earlier afternoon.
	They said it's about an hour later each day.
	Yeah, because the Martian day is 24 hours 37 minutes and our day is 24 hours.
	So there's a kind of a deep frequency between the two rotations.
	So it'll be later tomorrow afternoon before earth rises for that site and before communications reestablished
	and before they can begin to diagnose the problem that was revealed uh... late this evening
	between the lander and the rover there little go-kart this little microwave sized rover
	on one of the tetrahedral pedals of the lander is not communicating through its radio modem by the way
	even even uh... cnn was using the word tetrahedral all day
	Isn't it nice when you suddenly come into your own?
	Yeah, John Holliman, I heard Chucky Hedrell no less than about eight or ten times.
	Well, John has an entire bookcase filled with our materials, so it's very appropriate that he would do that.
	Look, let me get to the heart of the matter here.
	I've had an extraordinarily schizophrenic day because part of me, a large part of me, wants, with everyone else, to celebrate the joy And the human experience and the courage and the tenacity of all of these wonderful engineers and technicians and scientists who we saw hugging each other.
	And I mean, Donna Shirley actually cried on CNN when this thing landed.
	And there's no doubt in my mind that these people, 1,000% believe they pulled off another technological miracle for the good old USA.
	And I have been there.
	I mean, remember, I was Cronkite Science Advisor.
	I was at JPL in that same auditorium in 1976 at dawn, sitting in the front row between Roddenberry and Eric Burgess and a whole bunch of other people around me, experiencing the extraordinary history of the first landing, the unmanned Viking, back in 1976.
	On the dawn of July 20th, 1976, so I know the emotions, and I could resonate with the feeling, even far away from Pasadena, of these people doing it one more time.
	So you must have sat there, you said, schizophrenic, they're doing it, oh my God, it's wonderful!
	No, they're not doing it, it's a cover-up.
	It has been a very agonizing day, because my heart wants to believe That this is what everyone thinks it is.
	The numbers, the data, the science, the calculations, the efforts of the last 15 years tell me there's something radically wrong with this picture.
	Alright, what tells you that?
	Well, for one thing, it's too perfect.
	One of the refrains that we heard all day long from every engineer and every scientist attached to this was the almost astonished It happened exactly the way, you know, it's better than the simulations.
	It's, you know, we're getting signals when they told us we would never get signals and we're within one degree and it's, I mean, if I heard astonishing and superlative once, I heard it a hundred times from all different people in the mission who could not believe that it was going as flawlessly and as perfectly as apparently it had gone.
	And let me give you a couple of examples.
	Uh, as you know, I have this Redshift program, so I was able to literally, you know, call up the landing site and look at the celestial mechanics and look at where the Earth was in terms of the horizon of Mars as the spacecraft, you know, was heading toward this pre-designated landing site.
	Right.
	About 19.5 degrees on Mars.
	And the Earth was a little bit lower than 5 degrees, a shade under 5 degrees, 4 point something degrees.
	We had a 5 degree look, yes.
	Yup, above the horizon.
	Now, you know where we're looking, that this landing site is not level.
	It's not flat.
	It's very hilly and rolly.
	Right.
	Alright?
	Well, if you just look at the landing site and you look at where the lander would be looking to look at the Earth, When that lander was on the ground, according to the Greenwich Mean Time, the Earth was behind one of those hills.
	So how come we heard its signal all the way through to the landing?
	A very faint, tiny signal.
	Well, of course, it would not have eclipsed behind the little hill on the ground until it actually got on the ground.
	That's right.
	But they'd never lost communication once.
	And according to the radio engineer in charge of the Communication System, he was astonished.
	Yes.
	Astonishingly, on CNN, just before the parachutes deployed, she said that it was incredibly unlikely that they would have communication all the way to the ground.
	That's right.
	And yet they did.
	They did.
	All the way through.
	Each of the events up to the, you know, deployment of the high-gain antenna, and the acquisition of the Earth with that, when the planet had rotated and the Earth had risen higher, was tracked from the ground, from JPL, as these events took place.
	All right, but it's arguable, Richard.
	I track NOAA satellites here from my home, and I get down to the 5% horizon look angle, and I get a sporadic signal, but usable at 5 degrees.
	Now, I understand what you're saying about the little hill on Mars, but we can't know the precise placement, so let's assume it is possible that they got a squeaky little signal Oh, with a gigantic high-gain antenna, it's possible.
	What I'm saying is, I will track through each of these details.
	If there's any one detail, it's one of those things where you can say, eh, okay, you know, we got lucky.
	But we got lucky so many times today that even the engineers involved in the project ran out of superlatives for how lucky they got.
	It's true, I heard it, but Richard, let me play devil's advocate.
	Let me give you another one, alright?
	All right, give me another one, and then let me get one in.
	This thing was a tetrahedron.
	Inside a huge set of tetrahedral beach balls.
	That's right.
	So called landing bags.
	Right.
	And it was cut loose, and it was to fall, and then it was to bounce, and then it was to roll, and bounce, and bounce, and finally come to rest on one of the four sides of the tetrahedron.
	Right.
	It landed and came to rest on the bottom.
	Right.
	On the base.
	Right, perfect.
	This is one chance in four.
	So what you have to do is you start putting these numbers together.
	The probabilities, however improbable any one of them is, that improbability has to be multiplied by the next improbability.
	And then the next improbability is multiplied.
	Alright, so you've got one and four.
	And it hit, just like it hit.
	I agree with you.
	Alright, now here's what I'm going to say to you in response to your building theory.
	It's not even a theory, it's just...
	It's a disquieting feeling because of the other things that we know, including something that has come in late tonight, which really gets my red flags going.
	Which you do not know about yet.
	With respect to what you've said so far, for the sake of argument, if NASA was going to fake it, Why fake it perfect?
	In other words, put in little flaws that make it a more believable fake and won't allow people like you to say, it's too damn perfect, I don't believe it.
	Because they don't care.
	Because most people are not going to be like me.
	Most people are like you.
	And like part of me is watching this and just going with the experience.
	99.99% of the people Particularly the network correspondents watching this, immersed in this, like John Zarrella, like John Holliman, they are totally carried along.
	Even when engineers were themselves saying things were impossible and too good, and they're involved in the project, they were carried along by this rush of excitement and the overwhelming magnitude of the success.
	So in less than the wee hours of the morning, they start to be gnawed by some.
	set of of data that just doesn't
	it will go by so quickly because this will be forgotten in in twenty four
	hours you know with things are coming up
	any one of these tales of the quickly dismissed but she's i'm not resting any
	case on this and just saying that knowing what we know going in
	knowing that this mission already has changed remarkably from way to the way it was
	advertised before you and i did the show two weeks ago
	this is against the backdrop of very important anomalies let me give you a couple of
	Okay.
	You and I did a show, what, on the 17th, right?
	Don't pin me down to dates, I guess.
	Well, dates are important here.
	And I had picked that time with your concurrence, because I wanted to get it on record before the 19th, which was the last time That NASA would be able to uplink data for this midcourse.
	That's correct, yes.
	On the 24th.
	I remember, yes.
	The first anomaly occurred, I remember, the next morning when, as part of this national rollout, suddenly the lights over Phoenix became front page news.
	Can I stop you and ask you a question there about that?
	Because otherwise it'll get lost.
	Barry Young, Barry Young, a talk show host down in Phoenix, Um, has been relating the fact that it's case closed, the March 13th lights, he says.
	If you look at the October 1990 issue of Aviation Week in Space Technology, says Barry Young, uh, explains one of our aircraft, same amber light pattern, size, shape, slow moving, the whole bit.
	Uh, he says, case closed, uh, if you just look at the 1990 issue of Aviation Week in Space Technology, there is a craft that everybody saw over Phoenix.
	Okay.
	What do you think?
	No, I don't think that's correct.
	Okay.
	For one thing, if it was that easily explained, then why aren't the guys flying it coming forward and saying it was us?
	Well, that's a good point.
	I mean, you know, if we have human pilots doing something over a major metropolitan city, and they didn't want you to see them, then they shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.
	Yeah, that's... If they did want you to see them, and everybody saw it and reacted, then they should have said, okay, it was us.
	Alright, well that's fairly complete.
	And the fact that they haven't, that no one has come forward and taken credit for this misidentification, if that's what it is, is to me another part of the mystery.
	But my point was... Well, to be fair, they've gone from flares to, uh, Barry Youngland said, uh, he had a young fellow who looked at a telescope and said it was airplanes, uh, and, uh, and, or hang gliders, and now this 1990 issue, so, anyway.
	Uh, we'll let that drop.
	I just, I wanted to touch on that.
	Um, we had the lights over Phoenix, indeed.
	Now back to, uh, Well, I have done five hours on your program detailing the very complex relationship between the impending Mars mission, the city of Phoenix, the events in Egypt, and the last 30 years of the space program that are coming up to some kind of nodal point as we try to politically analyze this data.
	And you're always in a very delicate position when you're trying to project political decision-making.
	Science is easy, politics is hard.
	As the Kremlin watchers for the last 30 years could over and over and over again, you know, rue the day when they tried to venture a guess as to what the Soviets would do sometimes.
	But I was willing to go out on a limb and say that these things were going to occur, or could occur, because this was the linking pattern.
	And the following morning, the Phoenix part of the pattern erupted, front page, all over the world.
	No question about it, you called that one.
	The next thing that I had talked about, you know, in connection was that the Pathfinder mid-course would change.
	There would be anomalies around the projected course change for the little spacecraft heading toward Mars.
	Right.
	And an anomaly occurred there that I'm sure most people don't remember, in that NASA, for reasons not yet explained, delayed by one full day that mid-course.
	They did.
	From the 24th to the 25th.
	And then that morning, when we all got up, a stunning shock hit all of us.
	They had the space programs of both nations, the U.S.
	and the U.S.S.R., former U.S.S.R., had a very major catastrophe in that they almost had three cosmonauts and astronauts killed in Mir.
	With the collision of the Progress resupply vehicle with the space station.
	And there are two updates on that.
	One, they put off the spacewalk for some reason.
	And two, the Russians last night launched a resupply vehicle.
	That's right.
	They're going to try to bring up material and equipment that will be used in the impending spacewalk to reconnect power from the Spectre module back to the rest of the station and restore Most of the solar power that they're now missing.
	Is that a dangerous operation?
	Very dangerous.
	For one thing, it's a spacewalk inside the module, and there will be sharp edges, and there will be a confined environment, and the heat rejection units, which depend on evaporation of water, are not really designed to work inside an enclosed space, even in a vacuum.
	They should be outside.
	So there are a lot of unknowns, and these guys are definitely not able to train because they are in a space station where they can't get access to the training materials and the water tanks and all that they normally would prepare to do something of this complexity.
	Sure.
	And so they're going to have to basically take directions from the guys on the ground who are going through the training that we've seen in the last few hours on CNN, for instance.
	My point is that suddenly, on the morning of the re- Uh, realigned, redefined, readjusted mid-course for Pathfinder, much closer to the Earth, a stunning shock to both space programs took place.
	And the entire world, particularly the space science reporting community, focused totally, 1,000% on the fate of three human beings in Earth orbit.
	And their fate was very perilous, as you will well remember from your own reporting in those first few hours.
	And no one cared what happened to Pathfinder.
	And in that gap, when no one was watching, the midcourse took place, but hour after hour after hour after hour, no news was forthcoming.
	Yeah, the webpage was dead as a doornail.
	For 36 hours following that midcourse, nothing was posted by NASA.
	Now, this to me is a fundamental question that absolutely demands some kind of answer and reckoning, because the kind of data that they were looking for, which is, you know, they uploaded commands to the onboard computer, The spacecraft was supposed to turn by a certain number of degrees.
	You're going to have to hold it there, Richard.
	We've got a break.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	The world was on fire and no one could save me but you.
	I never dreamed that I'd meet somebody like you I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you
	I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you
	Yeah.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Richard Hoagland is my guest.
	Here to answer, um, and then take your calls, the events of the day.
	And it does appear as though Mars Pathfinder has, uh, indeed landed on Mars.
	That is my belief.
	And I think I disagree with Richard, but, uh, I can live with disagreements.
	Now, I'll kind of profile something in a moment for you, and we'll ask Richard a very direct question.
	By the way, here's a fact from somebody on our great show.
	Do you think one clear night you might take a video cam outside pointed toward the Nevada sky mountains in Area 51?
	Who knows what we may see?
	Yes, Bill, in Fairfield.
	I might do that.
	We have a studio cam.
	You can see me doing this program earlier today for the fun of it.
	I put a picture up of my spa.
	And one of these nights, I'm going to take one out.
	I'll take a video cam out, mount it on a tripod, and we'll cycle to that, or even keep it going and point it right over toward Area 51, and you guys can sit there and watch for whatever you want to see.
	A live cam on Area 51.
	Why not?
	Imagine you sit down, get comfortable, turn on your TV, and you've got an extra remote control there, and you push one button, and it's a little black unit, little black box sits on top of your TV.
	It's called Web TV.
	It's wonderful.
	It puts you on the World Wide Web, just like that.
	Here's how easy it is.
	It arrives, you unpack it, you put it on your TV, you plug a phone line into it, you plug it into your TV, even the big ones, big screens, And you are on the World Wide Web, my website, watching me do the show live, listening to real audio.
	You can actually hear the program.
	You can hear archived programs.
	You can be on the JPL website.
	You can, well, you can open the world.
	If you're not convinced yet, then keep listening.
	Now we take you back to the night of July 4th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Art Bell.
	Richard and I have watched the same events during the day, and I've come to very different conclusions.
	I conclude that we are in fact on Mars, that Pathfinder did in fact land on Mars, And Richard, I think, has serious doubts.
	And Richard is a very good friend of mine, and I will tell you straight out, Richard, that because of your very self-confident presentation when you're on the air, you know, over the years that we've been talking, you have a very self-confident presentation, that with the apparent A landing of Pathfinder on Mars, there are people faxing in saying that you should eat brown stuff and die.
	To put it gently.
	And they want to see you eat crow or worse.
	So I guess I should ask you directly, are you Are you convinced at this point that this is some sort of cover-up, we have not in fact landed on Mars, that we're being shown hoaxed photographs, that the whole landing was hoax, that the technicians unaware of the hoaxing, is that what you think at this moment occurred or do you think in fact Pathfinder did land on Mars?
	The truth at heart is I don't know, and that's what bothers the hell out of me, because in an earlier era, I would have been at the front row, cheering with everybody else, completely oblivious to the larger issues.
	Remember what this investigation has been claiming for the last several years.
	That this government, this space agency, in part, has been carefully and systematically and meticulously lying Lying.
	Let me underscore that.
	Lying.
	To its own people, to the American people, and to the rest of the world, about the larger realities in the solar system.
	And that we have put together a team of people, a broad cross-section of very competent talent, that now meticulously, step-by-step, has found out the lies regarding the lunar missions, what is really on the moon, the Mars missions, what is really there, Some of the earliest, you know, data now coming back from the outer solar system, Europa, etc., etc.
	In other words, there is a pattern of deception by some involved with our Vanguard efforts to explore the larger solar system home of the human family that borders on, you know, an historical magnitude, an historical event of such magnitude As to boggle the imagination.
	And let me finish.
	Against that backdrop, for me to even raise the possibility that what we are seeing is not what we think we're seeing, I know is going to make some people very angry.
	What they want me to do is to basically sit here on radio and say, okay, I was wrong.
	The problem is, there is compelling evidence to indicate that There is some other agenda, and I don't understand the immiscibility between those two realities.
	Yes, I've seen the television.
	Yes, I've seen the events of the day.
	I followed it meticulously from early this morning until just a few minutes ago.
	Sure.
	I also know that we live now in a virtual reality world, and under normal circumstances, when there was an extraordinary problem or possibility, When we had had a witness who had been proven to have lied to us, what we could have would be other witnesses who could corroborate that first witness's next claim.
	In this case, we have to depend, because of the exigencies of technology, on the very agency that we know has lied to us in part.
	No, we don't.
	No, we don't.
	Let me say a word, okay?
	At your behest, I contacted Wayne Green, as you well know.
	Wayne Green is a ham, publishes 73 Magazine, he faxed back to me the following, Art I checked with my VHF editor and his friends testing a new 27 meter dish Checked out the Mars signal yesterday.
	Found them right where they should have been.
	The dish has a very narrow reception pattern, so it's quite accurate.
	Thus, it looks as if Dick's predictions and theories of a July 20th landing have not panned out.
	Now, at this moment, I would like confirmation.
	Now, there are others out there able to look At this, I think it's about 1.4 gig signal coming from Mars, particularly as they crank up the higher power transmitter from Mars.
	And we can find out if we have a signal now, not on the 20th, a fixed signal coming from Mars.
	Lots of hams out there that can do that.
	Given a few of the right feed, I could do it here, and the right mount for my dish, which I don't have.
	So I will ask that hams out there, Um, listen for this signal.
	I think the frequencies are listed on the, um, on the website.
	Go to the Mars Sandfinder website.
	That's right.
	Yes.
	And if, Richard, we can confirm that we've got the signal as described coming from the place on Mars as described, at that point, what do you say?
	Well, at that point, we'll have data independent of NASA.
	Now, Wayne's friend works for AT&T.
	AT&T and Bell Labs is up to their eyebrows in government contracts, so that to me does not qualify as independent confirmation.
	All right, but I'm requesting it now.
	What we need, and what I wanted to talk to the 18 million plus people who listen to you every night is, out there, there are grad students working for radio astronomy telescope projects right now.
	Sure.
	There are independent commercial firms that have changeable feeds and very large dishes and major cool amplifiers.
	Absolutely.
	There is a range of talent around the planet now hearing our voice What I would like is for those independent hands and independent commercial satellite dishes and radio astronomy projects that really care about truth and honesty to all look at this signal, to look at Mars and tell us if in fact this Pathfinder signal is coming from the surface of the planet.
	And if we can confirm that?
	If we can confirm that, of course I will admit that it's on Mars.
	The point I'm saying right now, at this moment in time, is we are trusting that NASA itself is giving us the truth, and demonstrably, in the past, they have not.
	Well, that is a fair comment.
	I mean, there are... the past is the past, and it is fair to point to it, and I suppose have doubts about the present situation.
	It just... Particularly when I have engineering data, As well as political intelligence.
	I'm going to get to my new piece of intelligence here, which is... Now, please go ahead with that.
	...raises my suspicions to a higher level.
	Go ahead.
	Alright, let me start with the engineering.
	I have looked very carefully, as we all have now in the last few weeks, at the Pathfinder technology.
	And one of the things I noticed, as I was looking at this whole idea of an alternative mission, which would land on the 20th and not on the 4th... Yes.
	Was that there was something like five times as much mid-course correction fuel being carried by this spacecraft than was going to be used during the nominal mission.
	Right.
	And on the fourth.
	Not a trivial matter.
	Five times the amount of fuel.
	That's a big weight problem because it's supposed to be faster, cheaper, and blah, blah, blah.
	Well, it's even more serious because it's like you pack a suitcase for a vacation and the airline says you absolutely flatly can only have so many pounds.
	Right.
	So you then have to decide in that weight limit.
	Priorities.
	Priorities.
	How much to video cameras, how much to tape, how much to underwear, how much to skin block, how much to water, going to a desert, that kind of thing.
	And you take several hundred pounds of something that will be totally useless when you get where you're going and you're going to throw away.
	We are to believe, as of this morning, that a half an hour before entry, That spacecraft, when it disengaged its cruise module, which contained the fuel in those little round bottles from the entry heat shield, that they threw away something like 200 pounds of hydrazine that they did not need, did not use.
	Whereas I am contending that technically that hydrazine was used on the 25th for a very long burn, and in fact probably could have technically We've placed the spacecraft on a parallel course to Mars tonight, so it's still in space.
	It's not on the ground in this scenario, and it's following Mars in a parallel course designed to intercept on the afternoon of the 20th.
	If we get independent radio astronomy observations, very clearly a signal from a spacecraft sitting on Mars will be very different than a signal from that same spacecraft cruising along, about to get to Mars on the 20th.
	And that is a definitive test.
	That's my first major problem with the engineering.
	The second problem is that for the last couple of weeks I have been trying to follow up on some very remarkable intelligence that came to me from Texas in the last two weeks indicating an alternative control center, a hidden, a stealth control center for this mission Located in Dallas, Texas.
	And there is indication that there is a facility where our information came from, that is surrounded by double-edged razor wire and video cameras and security and all that, that is so well guarded that when one of our persons tried to approach, they were turned away by a guard in this industrial complex several hundred feet from the building.
	It is a building set apart from the rest of the complex.
	And this is where you would postulate they would be doing the photography and feeding the data that would allow the whole thing to be faked?
	The specifics are very shrouded because obviously the people who are talking to us and sending us faxes are not representing their names and their associations and all that.
	They are extremely Uh, concerned for their well-being.
	Now, as you know, last night, in the pre-dawn hours, another NASA person died.
	Yes, uh- This person in Texas.
	It's true.
	There was another murder.
	Um, who was it, Richard?
	What do we know?
	It was a high-ranking shuttle chief from Houston.
	Uh, involved with the, with the, uh, shuttle program.
	His name is, uh, Brewster Shaw.
	Yes.
	Murdered.
	Murdered.
	I think they found him where?
	Well, they found him in the trunk of his car, which had been run into the lake and was fished out of the bottom of the lake somewhere near Austin, Texas last night.
	Yeah, this is true.
	I can confirm what Richard is saying.
	As a matter of fact, I sent him the information.
	Now, well, this is also on AP.
	Yep.
	It's incredible, Richard.
	How many murders lately?
	The claim is, of course, that the local police are saying, oh, it was carjackers.
	Now my problem with that theory is that all carjackers I know, they take the car.
	Putting a car in the bottom of a lake tends to depreciate its bull book value.
	Significantly.
	Particularly when its owner is found in the trunk.
	And then I think a tree fell on another very important person, a wind pass finder.
	A senior program director at NASA headquarters.
	Just as pass finder was about to make this burn, in fact the day after, The morning of the mere crisis and the morning of our program, within 12 hours, this individual, Dr. Ray, Jurgen Ray, was found dead outside his home in Potomac, Maryland, under, shall we say, unusual circumstances.
	On a road that he never drove, that he was afraid to drive because he claimed it was dangerous, and all that.
	A few days earlier, a computer technician working on Pathfinder in Palo Alto, in Mountain View, just down the street from NASA Ames, His body was found wedged behind a tree, between a tree and a fence, and the claim there is that he was beaten to death by gang members.
	But, of course, gang members don't actually usually function that way.
	These are uncontestable facts.
	It is true, and it seems like an awful, awful lot of coincidence.
	And there's a fourth person, Mary Kay Olsen, who was the program manager for Mars Surveyor.
	From NASA Headquarters.
	Young woman, 35 years of age, a few months ago went to JPL, went to Pasadena, and wound up dead in a hospital of a very strange and anomalous embolism.
	When you begin to look at the NASA community and the tiny number of people, and the statistics of people dying violent deaths, mysterious deaths, all of a sudden, that connected with the anomalous events of the missions themselves.
	connected to this unusual pattern that we have uh... decoded through the mathematics in the computer and
	atrace all the way back to the beginning of the space program
	well i stand back and look at all this when someone says to me you have to
	automatically except what you're seeing on cnn as reality
	i would say without independent confirmation wait a minute i'm going to
	try to get additional independent information well that's uh... that's a
	reasonable course uh... but again
	if we get that confirmation uh... at that point do you buckle and say hey folks i was
	wrong It's not a matter of buckling, it's a matter of independent evidence.
	It's a matter of evidence.
	When you say you believe we're on Mars, why do you believe?
	Because NASA says so?
	Because the pictures look great?
	No, look, I'm willing to settle for independent confirmation as well, but even then, Richard, if you wanted to be conspiracy-minded, you could suggest, well, yeah, NASA sent down a module to be transmitting from that place on Mars, and they went ahead with some other mission.
	I mean, you can continue to postulate conspiracies until the end of time.
	Well, you can postulate conspiracies, but there's also the problem of proliferating hypotheses.
	The thing that has made this analysis work, and worked extremely well over the last 15 years, is that we have not endlessly proliferated hypotheses.
	We have some very specifics on the table, and what is intriguing as heck to me tonight is that that pattern is apparently being violated for some reason.
	Okay, what I'm saying though is, if we do in fact determine the higher-powered signal coming with the pictures, Aside from this new trouble we're hearing about this morning, um, is coming from a fixed point on Mars.
	That will be sufficient evidence to convince you, and then you will say I am wrong.
	Everyone seems to think it's so important that people be wrong.
	Of course we can be wrong.
	The question is, why are we wrong?
	Well, I would like to know if it is eventually proven in the next few days.
	Yes.
	We will have 16 days from now.
	You bet.
	Until the 20th.
	If, in fact, it turns out that this spacecraft is on Mars at where NASA is saying it is, 19.5, on the 4th, then I want to know why this extraordinary pattern has been violated, and why there are other strange things moving in the dark, which still connect that pattern to Phoenix, to events that are going on there, including our own seminar, which we're going to be holding on the 14th.
	I definitely want to mention that tonight.
	For people who want to come and take a look at what we've assembled in the way of some pretty amazing data on Phoenix.
	We will do that, Richard.
	I've been kind of, you know, some people think I've been teasing on Phoenix, but you and I both have information on Phoenix that it would not be responsible at this point to go into And, uh, we're trying as best we can to confirm what we can, but, um, would you please tell the audience that that is so, that we've been sharing this information back and forth, receiving it from different places, including from sources in Phoenix, and at the proper time, we'll lay it out.
	well i think you said it and i think the responsible thing is to continue to do
	checking but again
	my dear friend that's another reason why i don't want to leave in the desert
	fashion and simply say ok i was wrong
	because somehow phoenix is part of a very disturbing pattern and i'm trying
	to figure out the pattern let's leave right or wrong aside i want to find out
	why we're wrong if we're wrong but i don't think we're at that point yet
	All right.
	Too many unanswered questions.
	All right.
	All right.
	We've laid it out.
	When we come back, Richard Hovland on the phone with you.
	So anybody who has a question, I guess now would be the time to come.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Coast to Coast is a musical and dance production from the U.S.A.
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	Friday night and the lights are low Looking out for me
	Great to be here.
	the three-year radio network presents part of the world's over
	and on tonight's program originally aired july fourth nineteen
	ninety seven top of the morning everybody great to be here
	richard hoagland is my guest and uh...
	we're going to uh...
	turn you loose on him in a moment and anything you want to ask is fair game
	next week i want to promote a little bit of what's coming up uh...
	If I can arrange it, and I think I can, Dr. Carl Grossman, Professor Carl Grossman, is going to be here discussing what he thinks are terrible, terrible dangers associated with the Cassini launch.
	It is a remarkable story.
	I know Richard thinks that there is not a great deal of danger associated with it.
	Um, but, um, we will, uh, have, uh, Dr. Carl Grossman, I think, Monday night.
	Uh, no, that's wrong.
	It'll probably be Wednesday night, Thursday morning.
	So let me get this straight.
	Uh, in all likelihood, Wednesday night, Thursday morning.
	Now, Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, Stan Tennant is coming back.
	Stan Tennant, who has decoded the Bible and come up With a very distinctly different conclusion than others who have looked at the Bible codes.
	So, there you have it.
	I had forgotten.
	There'll be a repeat Monday night, Tuesday morning of Sean Morton.
	Sean Morton's program.
	Then, Tuesday night, Wednesday, it's going to be a stand-alone
	and wednesday night uh... thursday it's going to be professor grossman is going
	to be a very interesting week next week and will be course following pathfinder as well
	in a moment uh... i think we've got a correction to make possibly
	uh... i'm not sure but i do believe we have a correction to make
	As a matter of fact, let me do that very quickly as a kind of a precursor before I even get into the other things I've got to do.
	Richard, I'm getting it from several sources that with regard to Shaw, it was not Shaw himself, but it was his son that was killed.
	Okay.
	Uh, does that sound right to you?
	Um, possibly.
	You have an AP story there?
	No, it's not Associated Press.
	It's several people who have faxed, and I do seem to vaguely recall, with regard to Shaw, it may have been his son.
	Okay.
	The fax I have said it was Shaw.
	Shaw, right.
	Okay.
	Uh, standby.
	I believe that I will let that stand as a correction.
	I think that was Shaw's son.
	There, nevertheless, uh, everybody will have to admit, um, There have been anomalous deaths lately associated with NASA that really are very, very difficult to account for.
	There is no question about that.
	And even if it was Shaw's son, the string of violent deaths associated with NASA lately have been hard to account for.
	I think everybody can agree on that.
	Alright Richard, are you there?
	Yes, I'm here.
	OK.
	Let me make a couple other points here before we go to questions.
	All right, go ahead.
	Comments or whatever.
	Yes, go ahead.
	I was watching the late evening press conference from NASA.
	Yes.
	And the meteorologist who was talking about the deployment of his meteorology boom.
	Oh, yes.
	And the readings.
	And the comment he made, which has been the echoing refrain of the entire day, Was that it was astonishingly close, in terms of temperature, to the Viking data.
	And what the other person on the panel, one of the project managers, said was that he had lost a bet, because the pre-entry Hubble data of Mars, looking across space from Earth orbit with Hubble, taking pictures of Mars, has shown us now for the last year or so, That Mars, right now, is much colder and drier, with much less dust and a clear atmosphere.
	And the Hubble people, who were taking pictures with Hubble of Mars, were claiming that when they landed, and turned the camera on, they should see blue skies, dark blue skies, and water ice clouds, white clouds in the sky.
	And the project guy from Pathfinder said, And I'm really surprised because on these pictures it looks like Viking.
	Now, here's an interesting problem.
	If you're preparing a simulation, and the only data you have from Mars is Viking data, that's what you're going to have to go with.
	If you're preparing a sim.
	What I'm intrigued with is that the data from the surface on this mission is looking like Viking, When the Hubble data says it should not look like... Alright, two points, Richard.
	One, earlier, prior to... I don't know if they... Have they actually raised the weather mast?
	Yes.
	Alright, prior to raising the weather mast, they suggested the outside temperature look like about 60 degrees below Fahrenheit.
	Right.
	How, what change has there been since they have put up with this?
	Well, when they raised it, of course, their father from the Landers, so they actually said at the time they took that last stream of data, it was about zero degrees Fahrenheit.
	Okay.
	But what they were remarking was, was this incredible similarity to Viking data.
	Alright, here's something that argues on your side.
	The following from Wes Thomas.
	Please ask Richard to comment on the following suspicious comments.
	From Richard Cook, NASA Mission Manager, earlier today, is this really real, or are we doing a simulation?
	That was as he watched some of the photographs coming.
	I saw that same comment.
	In addition, John Holliman, CNN, quote, looks like Arizona to me, end quote.
	Story Musgrave, Astronaut, quote, very familiar territory, end quote.
	All of those comments made during the day.
	Well, those are qualitative comments.
	What I'm raising are more profound questions, which is, and this is really important.
	Art, you have a webcam.
	Yes.
	I have sat up now many, many nights and watched those three cameras rotate.
	Yes.
	And we see four shots and aft shots and stern shots.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	How do we know that's you?
	You tell us it's you.
	Because in the next shot that is taken, I'm going to hold two fingers up in a V sign.
	But that's because you're cooperating.
	Suppose you weren't cooperating.
	We think we're seeing your studio.
	We think we're seeing you.
	But it could all be fake.
	It could be a slide.
	It could be a holographic projection with a camera taking a picture.
	It could be non-imperial, it could be anywhere on the planet, or off the planet.
	My point is this, and please, folks, listen carefully.
	Almost part of this, to me, is an exercise in process, because I want people to really think about how we view and decide on reality anymore.
	You are looking at what people are claiming is from another planet.
	You are now at a level of technology where Capricorn won.
	Remember the great fake movie with Nolan and O.J.
	Simpson, all those folks?
	Yes.
	About the fake mission to Mars?
	Of course.
	We are now at the level of technology where that degree of faking is absolutely possible.
	I agree with that.
	But the separation between the technically possible and the politically possible are two separate questions.
	What I'm also saying is that the backdrop to this mission and to the events preceding in this month of July, culminating with something, as I'm projecting on the 20th, pretty astonishing, is such as to raise profound questions in my own mind, and I want people to keep an open mind and continue to ask hard questions.
	All right, well that's fair.
	To the phone's first time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi there, Art.
	My name is Jim.
	I'm calling from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm listening to you on the AM dial, 630 CHED.
	Yes, CHED.
	Right.
	Sorry to disagree with you, Art.
	I'm favoring Mr. Hoagland's... Oh, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	Richard Hoagland, your knowledge is enviable.
	I tend to agree with you with regard to NASA possibly.
	These days, virtual reality is a reality, and it's quite possible... When I look at these pictures, and I'm thinking to myself, okay, if I had the budget, how would I go about making what we're seeing not only for the American people, but more important, for the project people?
	Well, with so much disinformation, it's hard to trust any image, really.
	Well, to me, it's scary how easy it would be to create the illusion that what we're seeing is from Mars.
	I think your idea is plausible and possible.
	And what I'm hoping won't happen tonight... And I also want to ask you, Mr. Hoagland, of the previous satellites, or however you call them, that were sent to Mars, is it possible that the last one, which apparently disappeared, is it possible that That whole disappearance was engineered and it is, in fact, on Mars today?
	No, it was not designed to be a lander.
	It was an orbiter.
	But you raise a really profound point, which is this.
	The Mars Observer orbiting spacecraft was designed to get us one meter color pictures of selected portions of the Mars surface.
	Right.
	If that spacecraft had been used to secretly acquire data which four separate engineers In 93, called me and told me it was doing.
	And it acquired data of this landing site.
	And they then used that digital data to construct a three-dimensional shape from shading model of the surface at a far higher resolution than Viking.
	And then put that data into a 3D computer program with proper supercomputer facilities, totally technically possible.
	And then we're seeing that 3D model projected behind the lander and rover.
	In other words, what I'm saying is not that this is happening, but that it could happen.
	And for God's sake, folks, start asking questions.
	Don't just accept what John Holliman shows you from CNN.
	Well, I accept that it could be faked, Richard.
	I know damn well we have the technology and it could be faked.
	I simply don't think it is being faked.
	On the basis of what evidence?
	Why did they delay?
	You're asking me to prove a negative.
	No, I'm asking you, why did they delay updating that mid-course by 36 hours?
	If you're asking me, right, the fuel question, the mid-course correction, these are reasonable questions, but I think that the evidence in front of us is more compelling Then the questions that you have raised indicating to me that we really are on Mars.
	I mean, I'm just making that judgment and I can't sit here and prove a negative to you.
	Until we get that independent radio telescope confirmation, I mean really independent, not somebody who is, you know, Sucking up to the federal pit and whose job and vocation and future contracts are totally dependent on a government, you know, largesse.
	Alright, well there's plenty of independent people capable of looking at the signal.
	Actually, there are not.
	Back in 1993, when Mars Rover disappeared, I tried to do the same thing.
	I tried to go and get the radio astronomy community, starting with Jodrell Bank, to listen independently.
	Yeah, but that's a lot harder, Richard, when you've got something moving.
	No, it isn't.
	Yes, it is, too.
	No, no, no.
	We've got a 1.4 gig signal of pretty decent signal strength, assuming... Do they have the large transmitter going now?
	They do, right?
	Supposedly.
	Then that ought to be a pretty hefty signal at 1.4 gigs or wherever it is, somewhere in there.
	And there would be people capable of monitoring that frequency.
	Well, the previous example I was going to give you was through Peter Davenport.
	And Peter can attest to the accuracy of this.
	Okay.
	We had found an owner of a large antenna farm that was involved with commercial satellite transmissions and communication.
	Right.
	That was interested in making available technical time for us to listen to Mars Observer to find out if it was still out there.
	And in 24 hours between the time the Davenport had the conversation, this guy had a conversation with some federal people.
	And suddenly got very uninterested in helping me prove that Mars Observer was still alive and well out there.
	That's the kind of pressure that was brought to bear and could be brought to bear.
	Okay, Richard, remember when we had the debate, a very gentlemanly debate with Edgar Mitchell?
	Sure.
	Do you believe we went to the moon, Richard?
	Of course I believe we went to the moon.
	I have pictures to prove it.
	Well, there's a lot of people out there, including at one point Wayne Green, who thinks that NASA mooned everybody and that we didn't go.
	I know.
	Wayne and I have had an interesting disagreement on this.
	And so this time, Wayne, you're saying, oh, maybe it isn't.
	But the difference is that the photographic evidence we have from the moon is of a much more primitive and, in a weird way, convincing nature.
	The technology during the Apollo missions was such that you could not have faked on this archived data, including the stuff that Ken Johnson put away.
	structures and consistency of evidence of artifacts that we have now been
	analyzing for the last five years. In the digital world, in the virtual reality
	world that we inhabit tonight, given enough black money, not only can you
	fake Mars, but you can fake the signal coming from landlines to these JPL
	people so they think they're looking at us.
	I absolutely agree with you on that point.
	And that's the horrifying thought.
	The horrifying thought?
	Against the backup of the politics of the last 35 to 40 years.
	All right.
	I promise the audience.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Thank you, Art.
	Hard time getting on.
	You've got the best program going.
	Thank you.
	Where are you?
	Frank in New Orleans.
	I have a two-part question.
	Number one, why would NASA go to the trouble to fake a landing on Mars and take the chance that they'd be found out by Richard Hoagland and others?
	and the second question is they always talk about the pyramids at Giza and the ones on Moors
	and uh different places yes but nothing is ever said about the huge pyramids in China
	or the pyramid that they located during World War II when the allies were flying
	supply missions into Burma over the hump all right well I think we'll pass on the second
	question and address the first and try to keep it short if possible because it
	winds into a very long explanation The question basically is, why fake it?
	Well, this is part of the five hours that we held two weeks ago.
	I know, I'm afraid to even ask, but I'll try.
	It's part of a larger pattern.
	It's part of a larger disinformation by a core group in the agency, if our evidence is to be believed, to consistently keep the human race from knowing that it is not alone, that there are other structures built by potentially, perhaps even relatives now, that we have a different history than we have thought heretofore.
	In other words, this is not just something that we made up yesterday morning.
	If this is going on, it's part of a much bigger problem And it is kind of analogous to Roswell.
	Remember when you asked Jamie Chandure why Roswell?
	And he said, well, it's not Roswell.
	It's all the other stuff they've been covering up ever since Roswell.
	Sure.
	But if they admit that Roswell was real, all the rest will fall out of the closet.
	Everything else unwinds.
	And so you're looking at a spider web of deception where they've gotten in deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.
	And now it's literally the point of no return.
	They can't go back.
	Those that have been fooling us cannot become honest, because they simply have passed the point of no return.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Yes, hi.
	I agree with you, Richard Hoagland, 100%.
	For this reason, I don't think you're really paying as much attention as you should to the deaths.
	Now, it seems that that happened in England, that they had a real weird stretch of the murders of what physicists in their science Back in the 1980s.
	Right.
	And these deaths, if you stop and think about it, why would they happen unless they were going to cover up something?
	And I think that just as this Major, was it Major Danes, can stand right there in front of you and lie, and the majority of people believe him, let's face it, I think that the same thing can be done.
	Ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, what did Major Danes lie about?
	I mean, I might have the wrong name.
	Well, it's a damn important distinction when you start calling somebody a liar.
	Pardon me?
	I said it's a damn important distinction when you start calling somebody a liar.
	Um, I think that I mean the man that said, uh, all, that, that major that said, uh, all that stuff about the NASA thing, the other, the guy... Are you talking about the Air Force?
	Are you talking about the Air Force press conference?
	Oh my... It is Colonel Haynes.
	I'm talking about... Colonel Haynes.
	Alright, I'm talking about the government... Art, Art, Art, please be a little gentle here.
	People don't pay careful attention.
	They've got to pay.
	Look, the devil's in the details, and I'm not going to let somebody be called a liar who is not a liar.
	But we've figured it out.
	We've solved it.
	Yes, we've solved it.
	I think you know who I mean.
	When they can stand in front of you and lie, bold-faced, many, many people of the government, I wouldn't find it the reason, except for wishful thinking, to believe them now.
	I think that they are more inclined to lie to us than they are to tell us the truth.
	Therefore, with all these deaths happening also, I'm more inclined to believe that this is more or less some kind of political, highly political motive.
	And this show, Art Bell and Richard Hoagland, you guys have got everybody talking.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Ma'am, hold on.
	Hold on.
	We've got a break.
	Richard, hold on.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Music Music
	Music Music
	Music And I'm out.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
	Good morning, Richard Hoagland is here and we'll get back to him and our caller in a moment.
	Now we take you back to the night of July 4th, 1997 on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	♪♪♪ All right, confirming a correction, UPI, Austin, Texas.
	Two found dead in a trunk in a lake.
	The victims, 25-year-old Juan Cotera and 20-year-old Brandon Shaw.
	Pulled out of a lake on Wednesday, so again confirming that correction from United Press International.
	Nevertheless, a string of deaths with regard to NASA that is reasonably suspicious.
	There's no question about it.
	And the lady also brought up the string of deaths of scientists in Great Britain.
	No question about that.
	Richard and ma'am, you're both back on the air again.
	Okay.
	As I was saying, I think that you don't realize the impact that your show has had.
	And I know you don't want to say it because it sounds probably egotistical, but you have impacted TV shows, copycat shows on the radio, and I think that you have it more in mind.
	Well, I've seen magazines even.
	They're touching on the flying saucer thing, all of it.
	The Oates tapes, where those two men were saying things that sounded like we've already been there.
	What we're seeing, I think, is what Richard is saying, more a political show than anything else.
	Because so many people listen to your show, Art, they had to do something.
	They're coming off totally unbelievable.
	Alright, let me run with that for a second.
	Richard, she's right about one thing.
	I understand my show has had an impact.
	It's grown and it's big and a lot of people listen.
	Consider the possibility, Richard, that what you've been saying, what you've been pounding on, might have caused them to decide, let's land on July 4th.
	Has that occurred to you?
	Well, I'm not that egotistical, and I would not really imagine that we could affect, as we said on the other show, remember you asked me that?
	Yes, I did.
	I think that in terms of forecasting, we would change the curve.
	Yes.
	No, because what we're seeing is much too carefully planned to have been only created in the last two weeks.
	However, this is something that's interesting, because the other night on ABC, Apparently, there was a hit piece on us, specifically.
	Well, there are so many of them lately, I don't even know about half of them.
	Well, a couple of people faxed me.
	As you know, I have moved, I'm in transition, so I'm not even where I can see, you know, network television, at least I wasn't the other day.
	You won't be harmed by it.
	Okay.
	Apparently, Jennings, you know, they did a piece on the face on Mars, and they specifically took excerpts from our NASA briefing at NASA Lewis, And they use some of my comments in an effort to dismiss the whole subject as of credence and credibility, etc, etc.
	That would suggest that somebody thinks that this investigation is a threat to something.
	Well, we're touching a lot of nerves.
	There's no question about that.
	I simply want people to continue to follow the evidence and don't believe Daddy Nasa just because they say they're doing something.
	Now, I have another question.
	Did you notice an anomaly about this afternoon's congratulations?
	A stunning anomaly.
	When they were all grabbing each other and hugging?
	No, no, no.
	We had Dan Golden and Ed Stone and the project manager.
	Well, the anomaly was they were on the phone waiting for the vice president and they had to keep waiting and waiting and waiting.
	Waiting for the vice president.
	Vice president.
	Why wasn't the president on the line?
	Why was there an issued statement?
	Well, because the Vice President is a President Space guy.
	No, no, wrong.
	Technology.
	When I was at JPL 20 years ago for Viking, Jimmy Carter, President of the United States, got on the phone.
	I remember.
	Ed Beggs.
	Yep.
	And personally congratulated him.
	Reagan did it many times.
	Yeah, I know.
	And Clinton has gotten on the phone to astronauts and shuttle guys and all that.
	Yes.
	But in this case, what was stunning to me is politically, Bill Clinton has kept himself personally above the fray on this.
	And the only voice congratulating the people at JPL on record is Al Gore.
	So what I'm going to do is, since we recorded everything, I'm going to send the tapes to David Oates of that entire, you know, panoply.
	And I would like to know what those gentlemen really are thinking.
	Including Dan Golden, and Wes Huntress, and Al Gore.
	Not the project people.
	The people who honestly believe they're looking at stunning data from Mars.
	But the people who in the press conference came off... I mean, Wes Huntress actually had to read his statement.
	This is the guy who's the head of space science for all of NASA.
	He's just pulled off a stunning coup, and his emotions are limited to reading a prepared statement from a piece of paper on the desk in front of him.
	Well, the whole thing was very stilted and staged.
	So let's find out from David what they're really thinking.
	But I mean, there is, of course, a political, gigantic political aspect to all this.
	I saw, I think it was, was it Golden or his boss on CNN said, I gotta go, the Vice President's waiting for me.
	That was Golden.
	Yeah, that was that Golden.
	Uh, so the Vice President, it seems to me, was already there.
	And, wasn't he?
	Physically?
	No, he was on the phone.
	Remember, they were going to the auditorium to Von Karman to wait for the phone call.
	No, I know, but I mean, he was, the Vice President had to have been in the area because... No, no, no, no, he was going to be on the phone.
	Oh, he was going to go talk to him on the phone?
	Okay.
	From Washington.
	Alright, I see.
	Alright, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi, I got a question for Richard.
	Yes.
	Um, I wanted to know if he'd You don't think that the United States and NASA isn't good enough to land on Mars?
	What do you mean isn't good enough?
	Technically competent, you mean?
	You don't think we're competent enough to do that?
	Alright, that is a fair question.
	Are we competent enough to land on Mars?
	Well, we've done it.
	We did it in Viking.
	We did it twice.
	So, technically there's no question about their ability to do it.
	Is that right?
	No, from my point of view, of course not.
	Okay, uh, straight answer.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Yes, good evening, Art.
	Good evening, Richard.
	Good evening.
	Just wanted to make a comment.
	I want you, both of you, to think about this.
	And Richard, good idea on the reversals, by the way.
	Remind yourselves of the reversals of the NASA people and Hanes.
	Richard, what you said about Egypt, Phoenix, and Cydonia Kai, And Larry Hunter and that ceremony, which he did not go into when you were talking about it.
	That ceremony is a key, gentlemen.
	Good evening.
	All right.
	Well, I guess that's all I wanted to say.
	Okay.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I'd like to agree with Richard very much.
	Part of me wanted to believe that this was going on, but the whole thing just seemed too slick.
	You know, having lived through these and having lived through the extraordinary ups, I really
	and I'm trying to communicate this, I have been so torn today because part of me resonated
	to the way it used to be when we were all much younger and more naive and the other
	part said to me, wait a minute, it's just too damn...
	I like your word.
	Okay, I understand that line of thinking, but we've had plenty of things that have gone really wrong.
	Why is it not a reasonable expectation that occasionally things go really right?
	Well, it gets back to the probabilities, all right?
	Now, look at what is going wrong now.
	If that rover is not deployed or deployable, it is a fundamental Um, how should I put this delicately?
	It's a fundamental piece of evidence in favor of that this is not what it's cracked up to be.
	In other words, then we will get photographs from a fixed location.
	You got it.
	No stereo and no digital faking revealed.
	Yep.
	Well, they think they're going to be able to correct it, but they... Let's watch it carefully.
	Well, so we shall.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	I have two questions for Richard Hoglund.
	All right.
	Yes, Richard, hi.
	I'm calling from West Hartford, Connecticut.
	I admire you greatly.
	I've talked to you in the past.
	I think you're fantastic.
	Question number one, could it be possible that the extra fuel on the main bus of the spacecraft was there because there might be a second lander, which could be, and then sent around Mars and landed on the 20th?
	Oh, that's a good one.
	No, that's a very good idea, and we can effectively rule it out because of the payload fraction of the third stage of the delta.
	Alright?
	But it's a good idea.
	No, I don't understand what you just said.
	Well, in other words, we know what the payload capacity of the delta is.
	Alright?
	And we know what the total payload weight was.
	Okay.
	And we couldn't divide that weight into two landers.
	I see.
	All right.
	Second question, then.
	The point is, the two important points to me seems to be, A, why was that 36-hour delay in relating that course correction, and B, why was there so much fuel in the first place?
	Well, that was three questions, then, altogether.
	We've already asked the question about why so much fuel in the first place, and there is not a good answer right now to that.
	Right, Richard?
	I mean, no engineer in their right mind over-specs by 5 to 1 on something they can never use.
	Right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Yeah, let me turn my radio down.
	By all means, turn it off.
	Yeah, Art, I'm real pleased to be able to talk to Richard and you.
	I'm very interested.
	I've been watching The Pathfinder all day.
	I'm sitting here watching Math as Select right now.
	Right.
	Yeah, he has some interesting ideas.
	One of the confounding thing on the so-called STS-94, which should be 84.
	No, that's really not true.
	We can explain that.
	Richard, can you explain that, why it's 94?
	There is a reason.
	Yeah, it has to do with these numbers are assigned to payloads long before flight time, and they would switch and mix and match, and so the numbers have gotten totally out of sync.
	Yeah, well this is a replay of the 83 mission that came down early.
	That's right.
	So is that payload?
	The so-called fire starter payload, yes.
	Yeah, so that's what they're doing right now.
	So they just gave them a number out of the order, ahead of the shuttle program?
	Yeah, it's a make-up mission.
	Yeah, okay.
	Alright, well I'm really curious about that.
	The other thing is, are you familiar with the thing about Wake Island?
	Huh?
	Wake Island.
	This spring they had a thing in our local TV, a clip that says Wake Island is now open for tourists for the first time in 50 years.
	It's been a sequestered national defense site.
	I would take lead-lined undershorts.
	Pardon?
	Well, they said it had the same perimeters as you have at Groom Lake.
	No overflights, shoot-down orders.
	Ships are warned off 200 miles perimeter.
	Also, you're suggesting there were secret things going on on Wake Island, and now it's opening up.
	He could have been right about that.
	I really don't know what the status of Wake has been.
	I know it's been a stop-off point for a lot of people.
	During the war, it was.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	It's Byron in Long Beach, California.
	Whenever they came with that death storm that was a few days...
	Threatening to secure the landing site?
	That's a very good question, Richard.
	All of a sudden, I just forgot about it.
	Yeah, not only that, but the photographs we've seen so far seem to show a very still, uncluttered Unfettered atmosphere.
	You know, it's hard to tell whether the wind is blowing or not.
	Well, no.
	The project guy tonight said that the opacity is about 0.5, meaning only half the sunlight is getting through the atmosphere to the surface.
	And that is impacting the solar cells, they claimed.
	But again, he was contrasting this against the pre-Hubble landing site photos that showed the landing site was clear.
	And, in fact, the data looked like Viking data transposed to the I'll find your landing site.
	Gotcha.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Yeah, I just wanted to know, why didn't NASA just come out on the 20th, or say that they were going to land on the 20th, instead of saying, OK, it's going to be on July 4th and, you know, do all this?
	Well, the answer to that is a long-drawn-out one that we have covered extensively in five-hour programs.
	The answer is, and I can give it, saving a lot of trouble here, That there are things that they want to look at in the Cydonia region that they don't want us to look at.
	Put simply, things that would indicate that we are not alone, or that at one time we were not alone, however you want to look at it.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi Art, this is Chad out of Dallas, Texas.
	Hi.
	I just want to make a comment based upon something that Richard mentioned a little while ago.
	He was talking about some intelligence that he had about Some secret base activity going on in Dallas?
	Right down there where you are, yes.
	Yeah, well I live just to the east of Dallas in a place called Deep Ellum and I have to take 30 into 75 every day.
	There's a building that's just on the east side of Dallas that just in the last week suddenly has a massive array of satellite dish antennas suddenly installed there.
	It was something we just noticed today.
	Actually, I haven't driven there in the last couple of days, and like I said, I take this route all the time.
	One of the reasons why I kind of look that direction, well, it's the skyline of Dallas for one thing, but there's a lottery billboard that tells you how much a lottery is for in Texas and everything.
	And the building is just right to the southeast of the Trammell Crowe building.
	And it's not a very conspicuous building, but it is now.
	There's at least 30 Very large, identical antenna, dish antenna, up there that are manila colored.
	And they all face to kind of the southeast.
	Which, if you're in Dallas, and with the Hellbop and everything that happened in the last couple of months, I have a tendency to just kind of look up and check out the stars and everything.
	And Mars was pretty spectacular about a month ago.
	And it tracks kind of to the southeast of Dallas.
	So, that might be something that can lend some credence to you.
	Can you get us some video?
	Yeah, sure.
	In other words, better yet, take some 35mm photography and some video and get it to us.
	Sure, just give me a word of mail or two.
	Send it to me.
	Is it on the webpage that I have here?
	Your address?
	Look, do you have a pencil?
	Yes, somewhere around here, sure.
	Well, if it's going to be difficult, do you have a computer?
	Uh-huh.
	Okay, my email address is artbell at AOL.com, or you can send me an email through the website.
	Okay.
	All right?
	Either way, that would be very helpful, very interesting.
	This is corroborating our other information.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Yes, I have a comment.
	Then a question for Richard.
	All right, speak up good and loud.
	Okay, the comment is, it seems to me that this was a conspiracy.
	Someone asked why NASA would stage a conspiracy.
	Seems to me it should be a good way to channel an awful lot of money into some sort of black project.
	And the question for Richard is, there's a photograph of one of the astronauts' footprint on the moon.
	I was wondering how the footprint could be made Well, with the lack of any further moisture.
	All right, well, Richard, that's a simple one.
	There is a phenomenon called vacuum cohesion, where without gases in an atmosphere, if you have particles tiny enough and fine enough, like confectioner's sugar, if you impress a boot print or a hand print in that matrix without an atmosphere, Particles will cohere.
	They'll stick to each other without water and they will leave the impression.
	And that's what happened on the moon.
	You displace sand.
	It moves to the side and without anything to pull it back down.
	Well, it's much finer than sand.
	It's really fine, fine, fine talcum powder level material.
	All right.
	Richard, we're about out of time.
	Everybody's going to be watching to see what happens.
	You declare yourself to be in sort of a A push-pull, uh... I want more data.
	I want radio astronomers, I want grad students sitting in the middle of the night, you know, doing, like they do in these movies, where they hear these SETI signals.
	I want hams, I want anybody who has a decent antenna that can tune in on this frequency to tell us if this thing is in space, traveling with Mars, or it's down on the surface.
	And the Doppler shift should definitively tell us.
	Number two, I want people to show up on the 14th, in Phoenix.
	You know, we're having a large event.
	We're going to reveal a lot of interesting new material on the genesis of Phoenix, the derivations.
	You got a phone number or anything?
	Information number is 602-944-2434.
	That's 602-944-2434.
	602-944-2434.
	Okay.
	That's 602-944-2434.
	Okay.
	And the last two hours will be transmitted on Art Bell.
	Uh, right.
	And we've got to get together, by the way, on technical arrangements for that.
	They're going to have to occur pretty much on that end, Richard.
	Well, Keith and I were in touch today, so, you know, Scotty Roland is on the job.
	All right.
	Well, as always, even though we disagree on this one, Richard... Isn't that what friends are for, Art?
	That's right.
	Uh, it, I'm glad you came on, I think it was... Oh, oh, oh, one more thing.
	Yes?
	If anybody radio astronomer type wants to reach me, the fax number here is 505-899-9461.
	Give it again.
	I'm sorry, 899-9641.
	Uh, wait a minute.
	Area code what?
	505.
	505, and then the number please?
	899-9641.
	899.
	899.
	Uh, wait a minute. Area code what?
	505.
	505, and then the number please?
	899.
	899.
	9641.
	9641.
	Alright, Richard.
	Thank you.
	I'm sure there'll be more to talk about next week.
	And I'm sure you'll be happy to know Stan Tannin's coming back.
	I'm delighted.
	All right.
	Take care, Richard.
	You too, Ant.
	Stay tuned.
	Yeah, stay tuned.
	No kidding, folks.
	Well, that's it.
	What a week it has been.
	Don't forget Colonel Corso coming this Sunday on Dreamland and a big week next week.
	I'm Art Bell.

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