Art Bell hosts Michael Hesemann and Linda Moulton Howe, who reveal 1997 Roswell debris—nearly pure silicon with unearthly isotope ratios—analyzed by Dr. Russell Vernon Clark and Stanford, defying natural origins. Hesemann backs the Santilli "alien autopsy" film’s authenticity (95% chance) via pre-1956 film stock and global pathologist consensus, while citing Area 51’s nine alleged alien disks. Richard C. Hoagland questions NASA’s Mars Pathfinder landing (July 4, 1997), flagging anomalies like excess fuel, delayed course corrections, and suspicious deaths of personnel, suggesting a cover-up to hide evidence of intelligent structures or extraterrestrial presence. Bell urges skepticism and directs listeners to Hoagland’s July 20th Phoenix event for deeper revelations, hinting at a pattern of secrecy spanning Roswell, Mars missions, and black projects. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest.
I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be, and welcome to another edition of the Best Live Overnight Talk Show, the largest live overnight talk show in America.
From the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands in the west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, and north all the way to the Pole.
This is Coast Coast a.m.
I'm Mark Bell.
Alright, there is going to be much that we are going to do on this night, this morning.
We will go to Roswell, New Mexico for two events.
One, an update from Lindemoten Howe.
Now, I would be interested to find out how many people in the audience saw on network news of any sort a report on what occurred at the news conference that you're about to hear about from Linemoten Howe.
Facts me, email me, let me know.
Because as far as I can see, and I've been watching coverage of CNN covering Roswell, and, you know, it shows people in the museum and milling around and looking at the Roswell movie props and the evidence in the museum, but I have not yet seen any coverage of the really hard news that occurred at Roswell, and Lynn Moltenhow has it for us.
We will then speak with Michael Hessman, who also is in Roswell and has authored a brand new book called Beyond Roswell.
He is here from Germany, and so we'll speak with him for a while.
Then we will go to Richard C. Hoagland, probably in the order of about 1 o'clock Pacific.
And we will find out what he has to say about the day's events with regard to Pathfinder.
I have been, as he was, glued to my television most all day long, watching the incredible, apparently incredible events unfold from the Jet Propulsion Lab.
What an incredible mission, in my opinion.
And it's just absolutely nothing short of remarkable.
The photographs are astounding.
My congratulations to NASA.
I believe they have done it.
I have checked with Wayne Green at the behest of Richard.
And Wayne writes that he also believes that the signal is coming from the correct place.
There have been, as a matter of fact, I'll read you when I get a chance what Wayne Green had to say.
And we will hear what Richard has to say.
So, all in all, it should be quite a program indeed.
Quite a program indeed.
And it all gets underway in just a moment.
so as the old expression goes touch not that dial the the All right.
There was hard news from Roswell.
Hard news from Roswell today.
And apparently the networks are not picking up on it.
At least that's my sense, as I've been able to see on CNN.
I'm not sure what the numbers are going to come in on the number of people, but they had to have police cars in the streets to help control, and it was hard in some cases to move through the sidewalks.
It had an extremely festive, crowded air.
And tonight, out at the Roswell Airfield, there was a big banquet inside of one of those old metal hangars, and it was so eerie because one of the biggest thunderstorms that I've ever seen or heard just seemed to descend right on the spot where we all were.
And it made everyone think about Matt Brazil's description 50 years ago on another mere 4th of July or 4th of July, in which a huge thunderstorm also hit and may or may not have been responsible and connected to one of these crashes.
So we went through another one of these vivid thunderstorms in this desert climate right here in Roswell at the airfield.
And in this context of what may have happened here and what debris was collected from what site, this is where at 9 o'clock this morning, the people who gathered over in the Milton Pierce auditorium to talk about a piece of debris were Roger Lear, M.D., he's a podiatrist who's been involved in some of the removal of, in one case, an implant from a toe for analysis.
Jesse Marcel Jr., the son of Jesse Marcel Sr., one of the intelligence agents who was in a debris field somewhere between Corona and Roswell 50 years ago, and talked about it on videotape before he passed on.
And they played back some of that videotape today to remind us of Jesse Marcel Sr. insisting that what he had gathered from this debris field was not the remains of a weather balloon.
And it was refreshing to hear his own voice speaking again from an older videotape.
Dr. Russell Vernon Clark, Ph.D. chemist from the University of California, San Diego.
He was the main scientific presenter.
The other two people there were Chris Wyatt, a TV producer, and Daryl Sims, who has been working with Roger Lear on abduction analysis.
When Dr. Russell Vernon Clark gave a presentation for approximately 20 minutes, it was the heart of the scientific analysis that they have been apparently carrying out for a year on a piece in which we saw a photograph.
And Dr. Clark said that what he had to analyze was approximately one-tenth of a milligram of this specimen.
He used graphs to try to explain that when you do isotope ratio analysis, what you're trying to do is look at the number of neutrons and the protons at the center of a molecule of an element and see if there's any variation.
For example, I'll give the simplest example that he gave.
If you have carbon-12, that's what it's called, it's because it has six neutrons and six protons at the center of the nucleus.
If you refer to carbon-13, it's because you will have six protons and seven neutrons.
And these are the kinds of things that they were looking at.
When they showed the picture, it was dark, black, appeared to also have some iridescence blue.
They think it was because it was exposed to heat.
But the summary of his explanation for what so far they've been able to learn, and they are trying to corroborate their findings.
It is a small piece of something that is dark and extremely light, and upon elemental composition analysis is almost 100% silicon.
Now, on the Earth, there is no such thing as naturally occurring pure silicon.
That means that this piece was manufactured in some way.
Now, in the presentation that Dr. Russell Vernon Clark made today, he showed graphs in breaking down that in this nearly pure piece of silicon, that there are trace elements of nickel, zinc, germanium, and silver.
And that this is the interesting thing, that when they did analysis on all four of the trace elements, they found that the isotope ratios in all four cases were not terrestrial.
Now, the questions that have not been answered, and Paul Davids has just come in who did a very fine presentation of this this morning in the auditorium, and I'm going to pose a couple of questions that were asked among the audience and let him go also into a summary now.
Some people have said that this could be an asteroid or it could be something that had fallen to the Earth, so how could these anomalous isotope ratios in any way prove that this was, in fact, from a crashed disk?
We have the same problem in proving it was the bismuth-magnesium-layered material.
We can't prove that it came from a craft, but we're dealing with something that's highly anomalous.
A second area is what is the chain of the source of the origin of the artifact.
We all have this problem again.
Now, Paul Davids, who is a TV producer who did the Roswell docudrama for Showtime that first aired in 1994, was the summary presenter in which Jesse Marcel Jr. also spoke today,
in addition to Dr. Vernon Clark, and I think from the point of view of one of the most important things that Jesse Marcel Jr. said, thinking in terms of hearing his father and then hearing him, he said that he had had an opportunity to hold some portion of this piece,
which Paul can talk about here in a moment, and said that the dark, very plastic feeling piece that we saw a photograph of felt to him, Jesse Marcel Jr., similar and looked similar to what his father had laid out on the kitchen floor and table 50 years ago,
waking his family up at midnight to have them look at material that he said had been retrieved from the crash of a flying socket.
You've got a piece of material, basically silicon mostly, which is glass, but with trace elements in it, several other trace elements, which have counts that show, isotope counts that show that it is not from Earth, and that this is familiar to Jesse Marcel Jr.
I thought maybe I should elaborate a little bit on some of the description that Linda gave, because there's definitely more details to be filled in here about this material.
And I didn't catch everything she said.
But the main element here, there's five elements involved.
No, this was sort of treated like, I don't know, well, you know, you don't want to destroy too much of this in destructive testing.
They take a little piece.
And Dr. Russell Vernon Clark of the University of San Diego, who is a Chemist PhD, with an extraordinary list of publications in his field.
And his resume was made available to some members Of the press today, and we certainly want to make it available because he has the academic credentials.
He somewhat had reluctantly agreed to at first make some initial tests on this on his own time and was given a very small sample.
The results really intrigued him because they warrant anything within the realm of expectation, so he asked for another sample.
This was a blind test, by the way.
He was given a bunch of pieces of debris of different things.
Some of them just don't relate to anything having to do with this.
And he picked this out as the one that just really seemed anomalous.
So he went through a second battery of tests.
And one of the key things to note here is that his tests have been replicated thoroughly through additional studies and generally very expensive studies done through the auspices and organization of Stanford University.
The individual professors and people, they don't want to be involved personally at this point, but that was how it was done for the replication.
And the replication absolutely confirmed 100% what Dr. Russell Vernon Clark had found.
You've got five elements involved.
You've got silicon.
That's 99.995% pure silicon.
And the isotopic ratio is anomalous for silicon.
Now silicon, just, it can be manufactured, you see.
But the isotopic ratio doesn't conform with normal, what you would normally expect.
Could it be?
But wait, but here's the key.
Here's the clincher.
These other elements were trace elements, these four elements that were mentioned, zinc, nickel, silver, and germanium.
And they were present in parts per billion.
Parts per billion art.
Now we're talking about a few atoms here, a few atoms there.
We're talking about the finest, most minute scattering of these elements through this silicon.
Every single one of these four trace elements in such minute amounts had completely anomalous isotopic ratios.
In other words, it didn't conform to Earth silver that you'd find anywhere on Earth, or Earth-germanium, et cetera, et cetera.
Now then you come to the problem of manufacture.
And you deal first with the fact, and there has been a laboratory test on the manufacture issue, but we did not have a scientist here to present.
No, no, we didn't present everything today.
There's a lot that has been going on, research has been going on.
All right, well, just let me ask you, what is the evidence of manufacture?
unidentified
Right.
First of all, you start with the appearance, completely flat on one side, structured curves on two sides, and then you go into it microscopically.
And looking at it from a microscopic level, you see a structure to it that doesn't, according to a scientific report, relate to any sort of crystalline structure.
It appears to be an artificially manufactured structure.
And beyond that, there's an additional test which considered the circumstances it would take to create something like this.
And they determined that the temperatures required for this were so intense that you would be talking of temperatures on the level of an atomic explosion.
But this is not the aftermath of something created from an atomic explosion because there's absolutely no radioactivity involved at all.
So we don't have the temperatures to do it.
There are scientists willing to assert that we can't make this.
And we don't know how it was made.
And it also has some other very unusual properties.
Not all of those unusual properties have been made public yet.
And I hope you'll understand this was the first volley today.
Well, you have not received the kind of national press you should have received for something of this magnitude.
And all, I can tell you, Paul, I've been watching, the only thing I've seen on the networks, including CNN, is the typical milling around in the museum.
unidentified
CBS actually art did run a piece on us today alongside The Pathfinder.
Very good piece, in which they treated it very seriously.
That here was important news out of Roswell.
This piece has been asserted scientifically to be of manufactured extraterrestrial origin.
They showed Jesse Marcel, who, as Linda has described, had felt from the first moment that this was put in his hand that it was the closest thing he'd ever seen to material that his father had shown him 50 years ago.
Jim Courant came away from this and said he felt that we made history here today.
Now, of course, a lot of the friends doesn't agree with that, and they won't.
Some of them were upset that they didn't get everything that they would be looking for.
But that's the way it goes with these things.
You start out with the first volley, and you keep probing deeper and deeper and deeper.
But the point is, we completely demolished The Mogul Balloon Report today on Roswell.
Jesse Marcel Jr. actually got together recently with Charles Moore, the head of the Mogul Project, and they discussed what Moore has claimed explains Roswell.
To sum up, Paul, you've got a piece of material showing totally anomalous isotope ratios which would prove, you believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
unidentified
Let me say, here, it's not a question of my belief.
We're way beyond non-scientists like Paul Davids here.
We've got Dr. Russell Vernon Clark of the University of San Diego, Ph.D. in chemistry, who has done all kinds of laboratory tests, and then replicating tests have been arranged through Stanford University.
These tests are finished, and we've got the graphs.
Well, you've been in the motion picture industry for a long time now.
I'm sure you saw the Air Force's news conference prior to the whole beginning of the anniversary in Roswell.
unidentified
Oh, I sure did.
A major mistake on their part, unless it was a deliberate sort of passing of the torch to us, because they used these crash dummies as an explanation for bodies that were reported in Roswell in 1947.
And they acknowledged that the crash dummy test happened between 1953 and 1959.
While I'm on, please let me once again plug my new movie in 30 seconds just to tell people, remind them I made Timothy Leary's Dad, which is now playing in Berkeley at the California, in San Francisco at the Lumiere.
It's just opened in San Jose, and it's in Cambridge now.
And we're doing well in both those cities.
And for everybody that remembers the influence of Timothy Leary and those days we all went through from the Haight-Ashbury summer, those of us who remember those days, and a poignant look at the life of who this man really was.
I urge them to go see my film and support that.
And I thank you for letting me mention that on the air.
Tomorrow at 2 o'clock in the same auditorium that Paul did the presentation this morning, I will be doing a presentation of looking at what we have done the last 15 months.
And today, I'm hoping that some of the same people who were there on this one and they appear to be interested will be coming because we have two completely separate issues here.
We're dealing with completely different elements and the structural anomalies of our bismuth magnesium continue to baffle science.
What they've got is that smoking gun that when I went to Carnegie Institute, we were looking to see if we could come up with some sort of an anomaly in isotope ratios.
We couldn't find an anomaly in isotope ratios, which really is not surprising to most scientists you talk to because most scientists are assuming that even extraterrestrials are dealing with the same elements that we see in spectroscopes throughout the universe.
And so bismuth and magnesium may be exactly the same for something that was made maybe even in the solar system somewhere else.
But the fact that they have got right now some anomalous isotope ratios in something that is nearly pure silicon, which as far as we know could only have come through a manufacturing process, makes whatever they've got intriguing.
But we all have that same issue.
How can we prove exactly where it came from?
And in the business magnesium, I think in some ways it's actually an almost more provocative story because we have some kind of a layering that seems to be extremely purposeful.
And when you get into the areas of nanotechnology and what is being written in journals like Science and Nature about breakthroughs in nanotechnology, that one to four micron thickness of the bismuth is one of those magic dimensions where they find that the atoms between the layered metals begin to have interaction and that the metals layered together begin to have a different function with each other in these thin layers than they do separately.
And here we've got material that falls into that category.
And if the media would quit, would get out of the museums for five minutes and either go listen to the presentation earlier today or the one you're going to make tomorrow, there will be some good that will come out of this.
It is the hard science that is emerging right now, 50 years after.
The government tried to clean up everything so no one would have anything to study.
And yet, just as any of us, I think, if we'd been out on one of these strange recovery operations, it would have been difficult, wouldn't it, not to have picked something up and slipped it into your pocket?
And apparently, some of these things are emerging 50 years later that are so highly anomalous and that are provoking, like in the case of the bismuth magnesium, I think that this audience should understand that there have been a lot of scientists who have contacted me after they have heard about the specs on this material.
It means we have something that is genuinely provocative in terms of its structure, and then can we establish function by the tests that we're going to run?
So we have at least now two areas, the anomalies in the isotope ratios, and that's going to be an evolving story.
And we've got the bismuth magnesium that is so unusual in its structure, how it was made, and what its function might be.
And all of this may keep opening up on the civilian end the fact that there can be hard scientific research that we ourselves are discovering things that are beginning to move us closer and closer to what I would consider to be harder evidence that we're dealing with materials that may not have been made by us.
Linda, then thank you so much for the update tonight.
Bless your heart, and please thank Paul Davids.
The two big stories from Roswell are the ones that they ought to be going to cover.
And yes, I'm a lightning rod, so if somebody wants to contact me from one of the networks and would like to talk to Paul Davids or yourself about the presentation you're going to give tomorrow or the one given today, the two big stories uncovered basically, except perhaps by CBS from Roswell, contact me and I'll put you in touch with the right people.
But the big news is here, not in the people milling around.
And one thing that was made a very interesting point today in one of the press conferences, it was a reporter who said, why is it that the science reporter for the New York Times would run with the Air Force release and put on the front page of the New York Times the newspaper of record for the world, the dummies and the story, not ever having the ability to do research on that story at all in those 24 hours.
And that this is, it sums up the problem, that when something like the New York Times will put those photographs of the dummies on the page, but when something is important as these presentations of hard physical data on material, they don't, and Colonel Corso had a wonderful conversation with him tonight, Art, and very much looking forward to our doing a long, good Dreamland with him and with Mr. Burns.
Let's see if I can get everything done right here.
And in a moment, Michael Hesseman, also, everybody that is, seems to be from Roswell.
that's where he is in a moment.
By the way, in no way do I mean to put down the museums and all the fun people are having in Roswell.
I'm simply trying to point out that without a doubt, the big stories that ought to be coming out of Roswell involve obviously now proven extraterrestrial origin material and the bismuth magnesium material that is going to be presented scientifically tomorrow.
These are the stories that should be coming from Roswell, not the people with the alien hats and the tinfoil and the rest of it.
Now, comes Michael Hessman.
With Beyond Roswell, we now have a possible public demonstration of the long-rumored notion that alien life forms have come here.
Let's call upon government to end the cover-up now and tell us the truth.
I'm reading from the back cover of the book.
We have a right to know.
My father, and I'm quoting Jesse Marcel Jr., thought as much for mom and me that night in 1947.
Even more so is the case for all of us citizens of planet Earth half a century later, Jesse Marcel.
Author of the book, Michael Hessman, is a cultural anthropologist and editor of magazine 2000.
His books, Inside UFOs, The Evidence, A Cosmic Connection in UFOs, A Secret Matter, and now, of course, Beyond Roswell.
He comes to us from Roswell, though he just arrived, I believe.
He lives in Dusseldorf, Germany.
Here is Michael Hessman.
Michael, welcome.
unidentified
Yes, thank you very much, Art.
And indeed, all the world of geology is at one place right now in Rosberg.
Is it everything you expected it would be, Michael?
unidentified
Actually, it is much more.
And today, the press conference at 9 o'clock, which Linda and Paul were talking about, it was amazing.
I tell you, I was in the audience all the time, and I saw so many television crews from all over the world, including three different crews from Germany and journalists and whatever, from every paper you can imagine.
And if indeed nobody writes about it, if indeed the world only gets the images of the funny people with the funny hats, then there is a cover-up, not from the government side, surely also from the government side, but also from the media who don't want to tell the people the truth about Eurofolt for whatever reason.
So in other words, you were impressed also then with the hard evidence presented?
unidentified
Oh, very much.
And Paul Davids did a tremendous job in really presenting a well-documented case.
I mean, he did it in a very professional way, showing films, film interviews, and whatever.
And then we had the scientists presenting hard scientific data.
And I know the fragment for two years now.
And it is in the book.
We have the full story in the book Beyond Roswell.
And we did some preliminary testing, just simple testing in Samarino at the UFO conference one year ago.
And we found out that indeed it has all the characteristics we have of the alien material in the Santilli footage.
In the debris footage, this is part of the alien autopsy material.
And there we have a member of the retrieval team handling debris.
And the debris was extremely shiny, extremely reflective, and very lightweighted.
And obviously, we analyzed the pieces, the areas where it was broken.
Obviously, it was material with a very fine, crystalline structure.
And we have an analysis done from the images from the film by Professor Cornado Malanga of the University of Pisa, who is a professor for chemistry and metallurgy.
And he came to the conclusion that indeed we have a very exotic material here, but you could never replicate this effect through, let me say, any kind of conventional special effects technique.
And now we have a piece of metal which is highly reflective, very lightweight, and very, very hard.
A friend of mine had a titanium watch on this conference, and we were able to scratch titanium like, let me say, like butter.
And he still has this big mark in his watch, because this material is so strong.
And from all the alleged Rossville fragments which surfaced in the world of ufology in the last two years, this is the one which indeed impressed me most.
Why does somebody from Germany write a book about something that happened in the American desert?
How did you come to get interested in something that occurred over here?
unidentified
You know, since my childhood, I'm looking for evidence or for indications, but indeed we are not alone, but the UFO phenomenon is real.
And I'm traveling all over the world to investigate the UFO phenomenon.
I was traveling more than 300,000 miles in the last few years just in search of the truth about UFOs.
And personally, I have a job with profession as editor of a magazine 2000, the leading magazine for Francis Scientist on the European market.
And, you know, with this background, I could do whatever I want to do.
I could, you know, just travel.
That was my job, that's my profession.
And the Russia case from the very beginning was a very promising case and I visited Russia the first time in 1992 and I interviewed witnesses like Glenn Dennis, Robert Sucky, Walter Hort and so on and so forth.
But when in 1995 the healing autopsy footage surfaced and we heard the first rumors coming from England, it was my advantage to be one hour away from London by plane.
And I live in Deschild, Germany.
And I called Mr. Santilli, I flew over, I saw the film, and I had the possibility to communicate with him on a regular basis and get information no one else thought.
Before we got the film in America, there were a couple of still photographs, which I was the first one to receive, and we put them up on the World Wide Web.
And I also interviewed Mr. Santilli before the film ever got here.
And so you've obviously had a lot more communication with Mr. Santilli, and I want to talk to you about that.
And I want to talk to you about the alien autopsy film as well.
But we're coming up here toward the top of the hour, so I'm going to ask you to hold on.
We'll be back after the top of the hour news, all right?
There's several simultaneous stories that we're following this evening.
In hour one, we had Linda Moulton Howe and Paul Davids reporting on the incredible, incredible revelations today at Roswell, a news conference in which a San Diego university professor from the University of California at San Diego said that this piece that he has examined absolutely has isotope ratios not of Earth origin.
It is a manufactured piece, the origins of which, according to Paul Davids, come from a retired military person who soon will come forward.
So that's big news.
Linda Moulton Howe will do a news conference later tomorrow in this time zone, about 2 o'clock in Roswell, on the bismuth magnesium findings.
These are the two big stories that should be coming from Roswell.
About 90% of the faxes I'm getting say, hey, Art, I haven't seen any coverage of the Roswell news conference.
There was a bit on KSDO radio, Cogo's sister in San Diego, because of the origin, no doubt, of the science.
And there was, apparently, a CBS story.
But other than that, we've been seeing tinfoil hats, museum stuff, and crowds milling around in Roswell.
The hard science stories not coming out, but everything else is.
No surprise there.
Item 2, Pathfinder.
I personally believe that NASA has done it.
That's my opinion.
I spoke earlier with Richard C. Hoagland, and we're going to let him have his say at 1 o'clock.
Richard will be here at 1 o'clock Pacific.
And he will discuss the Pathfinder business.
But I want to congratulate NASA because I believe they have done it and nearly flawlessly so.
The pictures are superb.
I contacted at the behest of Richard Hogand, Wayne Green.
And we may try to get Wayne Green on.
Wayne, if you're out there, contact me.
I've got a message on your machine right now.
Wayne returned a fax to me regarding...
And Wayne returned the following: Art, I checked with my VHF editor and his friends, testing a new 27-meter dish, which checked out the Mars signal yesterday and found them right where they should have been.
That dish has a very narrow reception pattern, so it's quite accurate.
Thus, it looks as if Dick's predictions and theories of a July 20th landing have not panned out.
That's from Wayne Green.
And again, I do.
I believe personally that they have done it.
That is not necessarily the view of Richard Hoagland, and you'll get an opportunity to hear that.
My guest, Michael Hesman, has authored a book, co-authored a book, actually, with Philip Mannel called Beyond Roswell.
And we're going to go back and talk a little bit about the Santilli film, the autopsy film, because, of course, Michael, who is from Dusseldorf, Germany, was right there when all of it began to break, and he hopped over to London and took a look before any of the rest of us got to see it.
The End Back now to Michael Hessman in Roswell, New Mexico.
And Michael, I want to get it right.
How should I say your last name?
Is it Hessman or Hesseman?
unidentified
Both way, and whatever you prefer.
The German way isman, but it is rather difficult to pronounce, so whatever you prefer.
I believed either it is a very good hope or it is the real thing.
I have to find the truth.
The truth is out there.
So go for it.
And, you know, the only way to do any kind of research in the beginning before I had a copy of the tape, of the video, was to check the story of the cameraman.
And fortunately, Roy Santilli gave me the cameraman's story written down from, you know, the notes he made.
And I was able to, you know, go here to New Mexico and try to check it out, try to find out if the details in it, if the geography, if the crash site, all these things fit.
And this was the first step of my research before I had a copy of the film.
And I got from the cameraman, through Grace and Teeley, a very detailed description where it all happened.
And another thing is the producers of the Elena's Defect of Fiction piece on Fox, they met the son of the cameraman who brought them a tape with an interview with the cameraman, which hopefully will be released soon on American television.
And it was already shown on his Japanese television.
And you can clearly recognize the man.
His picture is on the internet all over the world right now.
And it is just a question of time until someone will identify him and we will know where he lives.
I have an idea where he lives, but I'm respecting his privacy.
I don't have his address and phone number, but I have an idea where he is living, in which part of the country he is living, and what his real name is.
First of all, Ken Jeffrey, who now is denying anything happened in Rosswell and is just quoting the U.S. Air Force Balloon Baloney and the Ufology for Damage they published about a few weeks ago about time traveling crash sales damage or whatever they claim it was.
And the same Ken Jeffrey saw the film on May the 5th, 1995 on the preview in the London Theater in London, England.
And his first command is, it has to be a fake because the being looks humanoid and no alien can look humanoid.
All over the world, we are joking about this explanation, and I have my own version of it.
But indeed, they did the time travel experiment in 1953.
They, you know, sent those four crash test dunnies back in time and space, and they landed on the radar reflector of a Magul balloon, caused the balloon to crash, and this is what happened according to the U.S. Air Force.
Now, my next question is: Do you think the cameraman, so important, is going to finally decide to come forward and tell his story?
unidentified
You know, the nice Chinese proverb, and it says, it is difficult to prophesy, especially the future.
And I can't tell you.
I just don't know.
I know the situation in which he is living.
He is living in a neighborhood of retired military people like him.
And, you know, besides his pension, besides of whatever legal follow-up, because at least, you know, he got a large amount of money and didn't pay the tax for it, the real reason why he's not going public is that he didn't want his neighbors to think that he did something illegal, something wrong.
He doesn't want to be isolated in the neighborhood, in the community where he's living and where his friends are and everything.
We didn't get any piece of the film with the beam on it, but we do have some of the first frames which the cameraman shot to test the camera and then how it is functioning under the lighting conditions and whatever.
Most cameramen at that time did some test shooting before.
First of all, it was tested chemically by Professor Corado Malanga of the University of Pisa in Italy and by Bob Schell, the editor of Sutterbrat magazine, the leading photographic magazine in the USA, and both came to the same conclusion.
It is a film based on octetate propionate, which is a chemical film based used by Kodak until 1956.
And so the film is definitely older than 40 years.
And I mean, if you keep this in mind and we have the leader that says we square on the triangle, which is the Kodak marking 41947, then we can really say the film is from the right time frame.
Alright, but I have heard people say, Michael, that if the film was kept in a shielded, refrigerated unit, that it might have still been viable many even decades later.
All right, so then the evidence leads toward the authenticity.
unidentified
The other point is we showed the film to pathologists all over the world, from the USA to Italy to Russia, everywhere.
And I did not meet a single pathologist on the planet who said it is a dummy.
95% of all pathologists say it is a biological real-life form, but not a member of the human race like you and me.
There's one German dermatologist, Professor Jansen, who believes it is a child which has proguia, which is a horrible genetic disorder, but children are aging quicker and become really like old people and they are dying with 15, 15.
But we showed it to other experts and they all deny this possibility because in progaria, the muscles are declining too, the skin is getting old and so on and so forth.
And you don't have this only being in the alien lotopsy prototype actually.
It has very hard muscles and fresh, smooth skin.
And another point is we have these eyelashes where we're moving in the film.
Of course, no child would have it.
And we have these digits on the hands and the feet.
And we do have polyductylism, which is another genetic disorder, but children have six fingers or six feet.
L, six toes, sorry.
But we had the very first case in the history of medicine of a girl born with six fingers and sick toes in England a couple of months ago when all the media reported about it.
Normally, they have it either on the hands or on the feet.
And normally, the sick finger or toe is a crippled one.
It is not in the harmonic curve of the other fingers.
So if, you know, the possibility and the probability to have a young girl with a genetic disorder and the second genetic disorder polyductivism and being the unique case in history before the English case,
I mean, this probability is so extremely low, but even the probability that exopesters came here in Prest is much, much, much higher, especially under the circumstances.
I mean, we have a film of a professional performed autopsy.
So definitely, if this would really be a young girl with a genetic disorder, it would be in the medical literature.
You've got to stay getting close to the phone for me, Michael.
unidentified
Oh, sorry.
Italian television did a very good and very powerful job.
They dedicated two hours on three dates one after the other, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
All together it was a six-hour documentation.
We had all the leading pathologists of our country looking into the film and commenting on it.
We had Monsignor Balducci of the Vatican commenting the film and so on and so far.
And French television did a very fine investigation.
British television channel 4 and so on.
So in Germany, all the media reported about it.
In Europe in general, the film caused a lot of attention.
The difference between the UFO debate in Europe and in the US is in America it became more part of a pop culture.
In Europe you would never find this kind of UFO carnival you find here in Rossville, New Mexico right now, and some people call it the UFO trash at Roswell.
And in Europe the debate is more on a rational scientific level.
We're going to activate the live studio cam in about 25 minutes, but I wanted to mention again that you'll see a picture of my spa up there right now on the live studio cam.
I went out today, took a little video, brought it back in here, and snapped one up to the web.
So that's my spawn, the one I always talk about up there.
unidentified
*Screams*
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
Remember now, stay good and close to the phone for me.
It's very important.
Look, I am getting from several sources who wish to remain anonymous right now that Ray Santilli is getting ready to release more film.
That he has in his possession, more film.
What do you know?
unidentified
I know he definitely has more film in his possession.
He has the first autopsy, which is about seven or eight minutes long.
And this film was taken on the 1st of July.
The autopsy we all know and love was taken on the 3rd of July.
And this film, it belongs, The original film, the rights belonged to a business partner of him, and he managed to convince his business partner to release a part of it.
Okay, Michael, is there anything at all about the Santilli film that you can find fraudulent?
Anything?
unidentified
No, and I tried to find something.
You know, as a journalist, I have to find the truth.
And I don't care if the truth is positive or negative.
I mean, if I would find the smoking gun for fake, if I would reveal it to the people, great, wonderful.
It's a beautiful story.
So I check everything out from both sides.
I even spent a long time following up the claims of all these debunkers and skeptics and whatever.
I'll give you an example.
I mean, Ken Jeffrey, the head of the International Russell Initiative, who now is one of the debunkers, he claimed that if the film would have been taken in 1947 by military cameraman, it would be a color film, not a black and white film.
Now we have a copy of the Kodak Manual from 1945, which still was the Bible for all photographers in 1947.
And it gives the recommendation which type of film you should use.
And it says for surgical procedures and all kinds of indoor filming without studio conditions, you should use super double X high-speed panchromatic film, which is a black and white film.
Because at that time, they only had color film which was very insensitive.
And you could only use it either for outdoor photography or for studio conditions, you know, like in Hollywood, but not for normal indoor shooting without professional lighting.
If you take the alien autopsy film that you considered to be credible and the film yet to come, and what happened today in Roswell at the news conference, what Linda Howe is going to say tomorrow at a news conference, and all of the breaking news, when, Michael, do you think all of this will reach a critical boiling point and somebody is going to finally say, it's true.
It has to be true.
There's overwhelming evidence.
We have it now that we have been visited and all of this cover-up might end.
When do you think that might happen?
unidentified
I hope soon.
I mean, you forgot one major point and major revelation which you will have on your own show in two days, and this is Colonel Corzo.
Well, I'm looking forward to interviewing Colonel Corso.
If you interviewed him, I want to ask you a question.
Toward the end of an interview on Dateline, NBC, Colonel Corso said something about a time machine or time travel.
Did you ask him about that?
unidentified
I did.
Professor Hermann Obert, the teacher of Werner von Braun, the man who brought the Americans to the moon, Professor Hermann Obert told him that he believes it is not really a spaceship, meaning something which went through the three-dimensional time-space continuum,
but these objects are rather a type of time machine which travel beyond the fourth dimension and who travel through some kind of, let me say, hyperspace outside of the.
And actually, I met Professor Hermann Obert before he died in 1990, and he was a very lovable old gentleman, and he was in the 90s when he died.
And he was a firm believer in UFOs, and he knew they were real, and he wanted to learn more about the motives and the reason why they are coming.
And actually, he interviewed a lot of contactees, and he tried to get in contact through, today we would say, remote viewing, and so on and so forth, already in the 1970s.
So Professor Hermann Obert indeed, and I can say it from my own contact with him, I can confirm what Colonel Kauser claims, he indeed was very much on the front line of UFO research and he was a member of the German UFO study organization.
Well I think that's a very important point because it was a very good interview except for that very last part and they did not give him an opportunity to explain that and they used that comment to debunk the entire story.
But the impression, the message given to the people is that here we have nuts and loonies of the world unite and that was the New Mexico became a big mental institution.
So this is the bad thing about it.
But I mean as I say, in Europe the discussion is just more academic.
But the media, the European media, are as naughty as the American media are and as unfair.
Unfortunately, they're even manipulating their own youth.
Your own question a minute ago, you said everybody wants to know why they're here.
I do too.
And if they really are here, why we're getting this slow time capsule release sightings proof?
Why not just land and meet us?
Well, that's too many questions.
Let me start.
unidentified
Governments are afraid to lose control.
If there is a higher authority, somebody so far beyond in everything, not only in technology and everything, who will still believe that our scientists, our priests, our politicians are really the ones who have everything under control.
Well, you're giving me the reason for the cover-up now.
Right.
But let me ask you why do you think they are here?
Why do you think we are being visited?
And I firmly believe, I mean, the case for UFOs is case closed.
There are UFOs.
I'm not sure what they are, but they're definitely there.
I've seen two.
Why do you think they're here?
unidentified
You know, after 50 years of UFO research, I mean, not by myself, but by the governments and the UFO community, we did not find any real indication of a hostile intention, but they are preparing an evasion or whatever.
We do have a lot of indication that they are here on a kind of, let me say, scientific, even experimental mission.
I mean, even the abduction phenomenon and the cattle mutilation phenomenon rather indicate a scientific project, like we do experiments with animals, but they do not really intend a hostile intention.
Even if the diverse scenarios are right, but they create hybrids because they are dying on their planet.
I can say, okay, is it nice?
I mean, they could land here and eliminate mankind like an Independence Day.
And what they try to do is to mate with us and to share the planet.
So, I mean, I can't really see something bad behind it.
And I believe the most important, I mean, we have many alien civilizations coming.
I mean, we have so many different types of beings.
Not only the typical little graves which you find everywhere in the American media, but if you travel around the world, you find people who met Zions, people who are, you know, nine feet tall.
In Israel, for example, we have a couple of landings, UFO landings, observed by credible witnesses, including the security chief of a village called Yitzhak near Tel Aviv, and so on and so far.
We have beings nine feet tall, we have beings humanoid looking like you and me, and we have the little grey.
So we have different types of aliens coming to our planet, definitely with different agendas.
Do you believe that the aliens that crashed at Roswell and the alien in the alien autopsy film, do you believe these are the real alien beings, or do you think these are some sort of bio-engineered?
This is what Corozo indicated in his book, and I think it is a very good possibility.
I mean, we can say for sure that the being on the alien autopsy footage is a biological entity, but there are still many questions about the way how this being is functioning.
I want to ask you, I live in a place called Perump, Nevada, Michael, which is way out in the desert and not very far from the infamous Area 51, which of course our government does not admit even exists.
Even during the Air Force News Conference, they could not and would not answer questions about Area 51.
What do you know about Area 51 and what do you believe is going on out there?
unidentified
Look, I interviewed three people who worked inside of Area 51.
First of all, Ross Lazar, whom you all know and love.
And second, Bill Uhouse, who was a mechanical design engineer.
Okay, the second one was Bill Uhouse, who was a mechanical design engineer.
And the third one was Derek Hennessy, a security guard, who worked on level 3 underground, probably level 2 underground in Area S4, which is close to Area 51.
And all of them confirmed that indeed the U.S. government has at least nine crashed retrieved alien disks, and they have contact with living aliens there.
And all the witnesses I mentioned knew or saw even a living alien.
And now we have these guys in California who claim that somebody who worked in Area 51, an informant with a code name Victor, and you interviewed him in your show as far as I know, that they have a film of a kind of an interview with a living alien.
And when I saw the film for the first time in April, I was very, very astonished because the being looks very similar to drawings we have in a military document which allegedly came from the South African Air Force intelligence.
We don't know for sure if the document is authentic or not, but the connection, the film taken in 1990 or 1991 allegedly, the Kalahari crash in 1989, there might be a connection.
So we also have the reports of the people living there and working there.
We have people who after they saw the Rays and Pilly alien auto-cube footage and the debris footage which is a part of it, who recognized the debris, who recognized especially the panels with the hand imprints.
And two of them, two of the witnesses which we met and we quoted in the book, they saw this kind of debris in Area 51.
So I personally believe they brought everything from the UFO crash at Roxville, the one at the Coral, and later ones to Area 51, including the alien bodies and maybe surviving aliens.
Is there an equivalent in Europe anywhere to our Area 51?
unidentified
We don't have an area in Europe so large which can be totally cordoned off from the public.
So we don't have an Area 51.
There is a base in England, in the south of England, in Wiltshire, where allegedly they brought the frackers and the dead alien beings from a UFO crash in Wales.
But, I mean, these are rumors and we don't have any evidence for it.
They definitely don't have an area that they are back engineering, copy engineering, alien craft and so on and so far, definitely not.
But we might have something like this in the Soviet Union, in the former Soviet Union, in Russia.
We do know what the Russians knew about Russia just a week later.
And Stalin, Joseph Stalin, the Russian dictator, he commissioned Zerge Koyev, the Soviet Werner von Braun, the rocket constructor, to check these UFO reports and to form an investigation committee, the Soviet MJ-12, so to say.
And they came to the conclusion, according to an article in the Soviet media in 1992, and they came to the conclusion that indeed the UFO phenomenon is real.
It is not a threat to the Soviet Union, but it might be of alien origin.
And I know from General Shetnikov, who is the head of the Academy of the Air Defense in Russia and Tver, east of Moscow, I know that since 1947, until today, they do have a UFO research project.
Thank you for the very different look and all of the same material that we've been wondering about in confirmation of much which we've been rumored about.
Thank you, Michael.
unidentified
Thank you very much for having the book and you have a welcome to Germany and as I say you want to find your meeting next time.
Take care, my friend.
So You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from July 4th, 1997.
It would appear, in my opinion, as though NASA has done it.
They are on Mars, but there is late-breaking news.
Dear Art, NASA managers at JBL wrapped up their Mars Pathfinder operations tonight with the revelation of a communications problem between the spacecraft lander and the rover Sojourner.
The lander and rover are not properly communicating with each other.
Officials express confidence they will solve the trouble, but acknowledge that the mission science objectives are seriously threatened by this problem.
Briefing at 1 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time later today.
Well, that's kind of ominous, and that's late news.
At any rate, the earlier news, seemingly flawless until this moment, regarding the Pathfinder mission, down she went.
It was a beautiful thing to watch.
And being a layman, I found myself quite convinced that indeed we are on Mars.
Richard C. Hoagland, as you know, thought that the mission would in some way be aborted, delayed.
The actual landing would be on the 20th, not on July 4th, and probably at Sidonia, or possibly at Sidonia, not at the original landing point.
He will speak of that and take your questions coming up in a moment.
Now, not to Manhattan, New York, but to a new, as yet undisclosed location in the southwest, here is Richard C. Hoagland.
Yeah, I actually saw the press conference on CNN, which was a couple of hours ago.
And I'm well aware of the technical problems that they have raised at the last minute here.
We won't know anything until tomorrow.
If you look at the celestial mechanics in terms of where the spacecraft is supposed to be on Mars and where the Earth is, Earth will not rise for the lander and the rover until early afternoon, a little bit later than this earlier afternoon.
Yeah, because the Martian day is 24 hours, 37 minutes, and our day is 24 hours, so there's a kind of a beep frequency between the two rotations.
So it'll be later tomorrow afternoon before Earth rises for that site and before communication is re-established and before they can begin to diagnose the problem that was revealed late this evening between the lander and the rover.
Their little go-kart, this little microwave-sized rover on one of the tetrahedral pedals of the lander is not communicating through its radio modem.
Well, John has an entire bookcase filled with our materials, so it's very appropriate that he would do that.
Look, let me get to the heart of the matter here.
I've had an extraordinarily schizophrenic day because part of me, a large part of me, wants with everyone else to celebrate the joy and the human experience and the courage and the tenacity of all of these wonderful engineers and technicians and scientists who we saw hugging each other.
And I mean, Donna Shirley actually cried on CNN when this thing landed.
And there's no doubt in my mind that these people, 1,000%, believe they pulled off another technological miracle for the good old USA.
And I have been there.
I mean, remember, I was Cronkite Science Advisor.
I was at APL in that same auditorium in 1976 at dawn, sitting in the front row between Roddenberry and Eric Burgess and a whole bunch of other people around me experiencing the extraordinary history of the first landing, the unmanned Viking, back in 1976 on the dawn of July 20th, 1976.
So I know the emotions and I could resonate with the feeling even far away from Pasadena of these people doing it one more time.
One of the refrains that we heard all day long from every engineer and every scientist attached to this was the almost astonished, it happened exactly the way, you know, it's better than the simulations.
It's, you know, we're getting signals when they told us we would never get signals.
And we're within one degree.
And it's, I mean, if I heard astonishing and superlative once, I heard it a hundred times from all different people in the mission who could not believe that it was going as flawlessly and as perfectly as apparently it had gone.
And let me give you a couple of examples.
As you know, I have this redshift program, so I was able to literally call up the landing site and look at the celestial mechanics and look at where the Earth was in terms of the horizon of Mars as the spacecraft was heading toward this pre-designated landing site of about 19.5 degrees on Mars.
And the Earth was a little bit lower than 5 degrees, a shade under 5 degrees, 4 point something degrees.
Now, you know where we're looking, that this landing site is not level.
It's not flat.
It's very hilly and rolly.
Right.
Well, if you just look at the landing site and you look at where the lander would be looking to look at the Earth, when that lander was on the ground, according to the Greenwich Mean Time, the Earth was behind one of those hills.
So how come we heard its signal all the way through to the landing?
Each of the events up to the deployment of the high-gain antenna and the acquisition of the Earth with that when the planet had rotated and the Earth had risen higher was tracked from the ground, from JPL as these events took place.
This thing was a tetrahedron inside a huge set of tetrahedral beach balls.
That's a full landing bag.
And it was cut loose, and it was to fall, and then it was to bounce, and then it was to roll, and bounce, and bounce, and finally come to rest on one of the four sides of the tetrahedron.
And like part of me is watching this and just going with the experience.
99.99% of the people, particularly the network correspondents watching this, immersed in this, like John Zarella, like John Holloman, you know, they are totally carried along.
Even when engineers were themselves saying things were impossible and too good, they were, and they're involved in the project, they were carried along by this rush of excitement and the overwhelming magnitude of the success.
So unless in the wee hours of the morning they start to be gnawed by some set of data that just doesn't make sense, it will go by so quickly because this will be forgotten.
In 24 hours, you know, with the things that are coming up, any one of these details will be quickly dismissed.
But see, I'm not resting any case on this.
I'm just saying that knowing what we know going in, knowing that this mission already has changed remarkably from the way it was advertised before you and I did the show two weeks ago, this is against a backdrop of very important anomalies.
And I had picked that time with your concurrence because I wanted to get it on record before the 19th, which was the last time that NASA would be able to uplink data for this mid-course on the 24th.
The first anomaly occurred, remember the next morning, when, as part of this national rollout, suddenly the lights over Phoenix became front-page news.
Can I stop you and ask you a question there about that?
Because otherwise it'll get lost.
Barry Young, a talk show host down in Phoenix, has been relating the fact that it's case closed, the March 13th lights, he says.
If you look at the October 1990 issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology, says Barry Young, explains one of our aircraft, same amber light pattern, size, shape, slow moving, the whole bit.
He says, case closed, if you just look at the 1990 issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology, there is the craft that everybody saw over Phoenix.
I mean, you know, if we have human pilots doing something over a major metropolitan city and they didn't want you to see them, then they shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.
If they did want you to see them and everybody saw it and reacted, then they should have said, okay, it was us.
fact that they haven't that no one has come forward and taken credit for this misidentification if that's what it is is to me another part of the mystery but my point was So anyway, we'll let that drop.
Well, I had done five hours on your program detailing a very complex relationship between the impending Mars missions, the city of Phoenix, the events in Egypt, and the last 30 years of the space program that are coming up to some kind of nodal point as we try to politically analyze this data.
And you're always in a very delicate position when you're trying to project political decision-making.
Science is easy, politics is hard, as the Kremlin watchers for the last 30 years could over and over and over again, you know, rue the day when they tried to venture a guess as to what the Soviets would do sometimes.
But I was willing to go out on the limb and say that these things were going to occur or could occur because this was the linking pattern.
And the following morning, the Phoenix part of the pattern erupted front page all over the world.
The next thing that I had talked about, you know, in connection was that the Pathfinder mid-course would change.
There would be anomalies around the projected course change for the little spacecraft heading toward Mars.
And an anomaly occurred there that I'm sure most people don't remember in that NASA, for reasons not yet explained, delayed by one full day that mid-course from the 24th to the 25th.
And then that morning, when we all got up, a stunning shock hit all of us.
They had the space programs of both nations, the U.S. and the USSR, former USSR, had a very major catastrophe in that they almost had three cosmonauts and astronauts killed in Mir with the collision of the Progress resupply vehicle with the space station.
They're going to try to bring up material and equipment that will be used in the impending spacewalk to reconnect power from the Spectre module back to the rest of the station and restore most of the solar power that they're now missing.
For one thing, it's a spacewalk inside the module, and there will be sharp edges, there will be a confined environment, and the heat rejection units, which depend on evaporation of water, are not really designed to work inside an enclosed space, even in a vacuum.
They should be outside.
So there are a lot of unknowns, and these guys are definitely not able to train because they are in a space station where they can't get access to the training materials and the water tanks and all that they normally would prepare to do something of this complexity.
And so they're going to have to basically take directions from the guys on the ground who are going through the training that we've seen in the last few hours on CNN, for instance.
My point is that suddenly, on the morning of the realigned, redefined, readjusted mid-course for Pathfinder, much closer to the Earth, a stunning shock to both space programs took place.
And the entire world, particularly the space science reporting community, focused totally, 1,000%, on the fate of three human beings in Earth orbit.
And their fate was very perilous, as you will well remember from your own reporting on those first few hours.
And no one cared what happened to Pathfinder.
And in that gap, when no one was watching, the mid-course took place, but hour after hour after hour after hour, no news was forthcoming.
For 36 hours following that mid-course, nothing was posted by NASA.
Now, this to me is a fundamental question that absolutely demands some kind of answer and reckoning Because the kind of data that they were looking for, which is, you know, they uploaded commands to the onboard computer.
The spacecraft was supposed to turn by a certain number of degrees.
Here to answer and then take your calls the events of the day.
And it does appear as though Mars Pathfinder has indeed landed on Mars.
That is my belief.
And I think I disagree with Richard, but I can live with disagreements.
Now, I'll kind of profile something in a moment for you, and we'll ask Richard a very direct question.
By the way, here's a fact from somebody, Art Great Show.
Do you think one clear night you might take a video cam outside, pointed toward the Nevada Sky Mountains in Area 51?
Who knows what we may see?
Yes, Bill, in Fairfield, I might do that.
We have a studio cam.
You can see me doing this program.
Earlier today, for the fun of it, I put a picture up with my spa.
And one of these nights, I'm going to take one out.
I'll take a video cam out, mount it on a tripod, and we'll cycle to that or even keep it going and point it right over toward Area 51, and you guys can sit there and watch for whatever you want to see.
A live cam on Area 51.
Why not?
Imagine you sit down, get comfortable, turn on your TV, and you've got an extra remote control there, and you push one button, and it's a little black unit, little black box sits on top of your TV.
It's called Web TV.
It's wonderful.
It puts you on the World Wide Web just like that.
Here's how easy it is.
It arrives, you unpack it, you put it on your TV, you plug a phone line into it, you plug it into your TV, even the big ones, big screens, and you are on the World Wide Web, my website, watching me do the show live, listening to real audio.
You can actually hear the program, you can hear archived programs, you can be on the JPL website.
You can, well, you can open the world.
If you're not convinced yet, then keep listening.
unidentified
And now we take you back to the night of July 4th, 1997 on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Richard and I have watched the same events during the day, and I've come to very different conclusions.
I conclude we are, in fact, on Mars, that Pathfinder did, in fact, land on Mars.
And Richard, I think, has serious doubts.
And Richard is a very good friend of mine.
And I will tell you straight out, Richard, that because of your very self-confident presentation when you're on the air, over the years that we've been talking, you have a very self-confident presentation.
That with the apparent landing of Pathfinder on Mars, there are people faxing in saying that you should eat brown stuff and die, to put it gently.
And they want to see you eat crow or worse.
And so I guess I should ask you directly, are you convinced at this point that this is some sort of cover-up?
We have not, in fact, landed on Mars, that we're being shown hoaxed photographs, that the whole landing was hoaxed, that the technicians unaware of the hoaxing.
Is that what you think at this moment occurred, or do you think, in fact, Pathfinder did land on Mars?
Because in an earlier era, I would have been at the front row, cheering with everybody else, completely oblivious to the larger issues.
Remember what this investigation has been claiming for the last several years.
That this government, this space agency, in part, has been carefully and systematically and meticulously lying.
Lying.
Let me underscore that.
Lying to its own people, to the American people, and to the rest of the world about the larger realities in the solar system.
And that we have put together a team of people, a broad cross-section of very competent talent, that now meticulously, step by step, has found out the lies Regarding the lunar missions, what is really on the moon, the Mars missions, what is really there, some of the earliest data now coming back from the outer solar system, Europa, et cetera, et cetera.
In other words, there is a pattern of deception by some involved with our Vanguard efforts to explore the larger solar system home of the human family that borders on an historical magnitude, an historical event of such magnitude as to boggle the imagination.
And please let me finish.
Against that backdrop, for me to even raise the possibility that what we are seeing is not what we think we're seeing, I know is going to make some people very angry.
What they want me to do is to basically sit here on radio and say, okay, I was wrong.
The problem is there is compelling evidence to indicate that there is some other agenda, and I don't understand the immiscibility between those two realities.
Yes, I've seen the television.
Yes, I've seen the events of the day.
I followed it meticulously from early this morning until just a few minutes ago.
I also know that we live now in a virtual reality world.
And under normal circumstances, when there was an extraordinary problem or possibility, when we had had a witness who had been proven to have lied to us, what we could have would be other witnesses who could corroborate that first witness's next claim.
In this case, we have to depend, because of the exigencies of technology, on the very agency that we know has lied to us in part in this occasion.
At your behest, I contacted Wayne Green, as you well know.
Wayne Green is a ham, published in 73 magazine.
He facts back to me the following.
I checked with my VHF editor and his friends testing a new 27-meter dish, checked out the Mars signal yesterday, found them right where they should have been.
The dish has a very narrow reception pattern, so it's quite accurate.
Thus, it looks as if Dick's predictions and theories of a July 20th landing have not panned out.
Now, at this moment, I would like confirmation.
Now, there are others out there able to look at this, I think it's about 1.4 gig signal coming from Mars, particularly as they crank up the higher power transmitter from Mars.
And we can find out if we have a signal now, not on the 20th, a fixed signal coming from Mars.
Lots of hands out there that can do that.
Given a few, the right feed, I could do it here and the right mount for my dish, which I don't have.
So I will ask that hands out there listen for this signal.
I think the frequencies are listed on the website, on JPL.
What we need, and what I wanted to talk to the 18 million-plus people who listen to you every night, is out there, there are grad students working for radio astronomy telescope projects right now.
There is a range of talent around the planet now hearing our voice.
What I would like is for those independent hams and independent commercial comm satellite dishes and radio astronomy projects that really care about truth and honesty to all look at this signal, to look at Mars and tell us if, in fact, this Pathfinder signal is coming from the surface of the planet.
If we can confirm that, of course I will admit that it's on Mars.
The point I'm saying right now at this moment in time is we are trusting that NASA itself is giving us the truth, and demonstrably in the past they have not.
I have looked very carefully, as we all have now in the last few weeks, at the Pathfinder technology.
And one of the things I noticed as I was looking at this whole idea of an alternative mission which would land on the 20th and not on the 4th was that there was something like five times as much mid-course correction fuel being carried by this spacecraft than was going to be used during the nominal mission to land on the fourth.
Well, it's even more serious because it's like you pack a suitcase for a vacation and the airline says you absolutely flatly can only have so many pounds.
Whether how much to video cameras, how much to tape, how much to underwear, how much to skin block, how much to water if you're going to a desert, that kind of thing.
And you take several hundred pounds of something that will be totally useless when you get where you're going and you're going to throw away.
We are to believe, as of this morning, that a half an hour before entry, that spacecraft, when it disengaged its cruise module, which contained the fuel, in those little round bottles, from the entry heat shield, that they threw away something Like 200 pounds of hydrazine that they did not need and did not use.
Whereas I am contending that technically that hydrazine was used on the 25th for a very long burn and, in fact, probably could have technically placed the spacecraft on a parallel course to Mars tonight, so it's still in space.
It's not on the ground in this scenario, and it's following Mars in a parallel course designed to intercept on the afternoon of the 20th.
If we get independent radio astronomy observations, very clearly, a signal from a spacecraft sitting on Mars will be very different than a signal from that same spacecraft cruising along about to get to Mars on the 20th.
And that is a definitive test.
That's my first major problem with the engineering.
The second problem is that for the last couple of weeks, I have been trying to follow up on some very remarkable intelligence that came to me from Texas in the last two weeks indicating an alternative control center, a hidden, a stealth control center for this mission located in Dallas, Texas.
And there is indication that there is a facility where our information came from that is surrounded by double-edged razor wire and video cameras and security and all that that is so well guarded that when one of our persons tried to approach they were turned away by a guard in this industrial complex several hundred feet from the building.
It is a building set apart from the rest of the complex.
The specifics are very shrouded because obviously the people who are talking to us and sending us faxes are not representing their names and their associations and all that.
They are extremely concerned for their well-being.
Now, as you know, last night in the pre-dawn hours, another NASA person died.
Well, they found him in the trunk of his car, which had been run into the lake and was fished out of the bottom of the lake somewhere near Austin, Texas last night.
Just as Pathfinder was about to make this burn, in fact, the day after the morning of the Mir crisis and the morning of our program, within 12 hours, this individual, Dr. Ray, Jurgen Ray, was found dead outside his home in Potomac, Maryland, under, shall we say, unusual circumstances on a road that he never drove, that he was afraid to drive because he claimed it was dangerous and all that.
A few days earlier, a computer technician working on Pathfinder in Palo Alto, in Mountain View, just down the street from NASA Ames, his body was found wedged behind a tree, between a tree and a fence, and the claim there is that he was beaten to death by gang members, but of course, gang members don't actually usually function that way.
And there's a fourth person, Mary Kay Olson, who was the program manager for Mars Surveyor from NASA headquarters.
Young woman, 35 years of age, a few months ago, went to JPL, went to Pasadena, and wound up dead in a hospital of a very strange and anomalous embolism.
When you begin to look at the NASA community and the tiny number of people and the statistics of people dying violent deaths, mysterious deaths, all of a sudden, that connected with the anomalous events of the missions themselves, connected to this unusual pattern that we have decoded through the mathematics and the computer and traced all the way back to the beginning of the space program.
When I stand back and look at all this, when someone says to me, you have to automatically accept what you're seeing on CNN as reality, I would say, without independent confirmation, wait a minute, I'm going to try to get additional independent information.
No, look, I'm willing to settle for independent confirmation as well.
But even then, Richard, if you wanted to be conspiracy-minded, you could suggest, well, yeah, NASA sent down a module to be transmitting from that place on Mars, and they went ahead with some other mission.
I mean, you can continue to postulate conspiracies until the end of time.
Okay, what I'm saying, though, is if we do in fact determine the higher-powered signal coming with the pictures, aside from this new trouble we're hearing about this morning, is coming from a fixed point on Mars, that will be sufficient evidence to convince you, and then you will say, I am wrong.
Everyone seems to think it's so important that people be wrong.
Of course we can be wrong.
The question is, why are we wrong?
What I would like to know, if it is eventually proven in the next few days, we will have 16 days from now until the 20th, if, in fact, it turns out that this spacecraft is on Mars at where NASA is saying it is, 19.5,
on the 4th, then I want to know why this extraordinary pattern has been violated and why there are other strange things moving in the dark connecting, you know, which still connect that pattern to Phoenix, to events that are going on there, including our own seminar, which we're going to be holding on the 14th.
I definitely want to mention that tonight for people who want to come and take a look at what we've assembled in the way of some pretty amazing data on Phoenix.
Richard, I've been kind of, you know, some people think I've been teasing on Phoenix, but you and I both have information on Phoenix that it would not be responsible at this point to go into.
And we're trying as best we can to confirm what we can.
But would you please tell the audience at that associate that we've been sharing this information back and forth, receiving it from different places, including from sources in Phoenix.
Richard Hopeland is my guest, and we're going to turn you loose on him in a moment.
And anything you want to ask is fair game.
Next week, I want to promote a little bit what's coming up.
If I can arrange it, and I think I can, Dr. Carl Grossman, Professor Carl Grossman, is going to be here discussing what he thinks are terrible, terrible dangers associated with the Cassini launch.
It is a remarkable story.
I know Richard thinks that there is not a great deal of danger associated with it, but we will have Dr. Carl Grossman, I think, Monday night.
No, that's wrong.
It'll probably be Wednesday night, Thursday morning.
So let me get this straight.
In all likelihood, Wednesday night, Thursday morning.
Now, Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, Stan Tennen is coming back.
Stan Tennon, who has decoded the Bible and come up with a very distinctly different conclusion than others who have looked at the Bible codes.
So there you have it.
I had forgotten.
There'll be a repeat Monday night, Tuesday morning of Sean Morton, Sean Morton's program.
Then Tuesday night, Wednesday, it's going to be Stan Tennon.
And Wednesday night, Thursday, it's going to be Professor Grossman.
It's going to be a very interesting week next week, and we'll be, of course, following Pathfinder as well.
In a moment, I think we've got a correction to make, possibly.
I'm not sure, but I do believe we have a correction to make.
As a matter of fact, let me do that very quickly as kind of a precursor before I even get into the other things I've got to do.
Richard, I'm getting it from several sources that with regard to Shaw, it was not Shaw himself, but it was his son that was killed.
I believe that I will let that stand as a correction.
I think that was Shaw's son.
There, nevertheless, everybody will have to admit there have been anomalous deaths lately associated with NASA that really are very, very difficult to account for.
There is no question about that.
And even if it was Shaw's son, the string of violent deaths associated with NASA lately have been hard to account for.
think everybody can agree on that All right, Richard, are you there?
And the meteorologist who was talking about the deployment of his meteorology boom and the readings.
And the comment he made, which has been the echoing refrain of the entire day, was that it was astonishingly close in terms of temperature to the Viking data.
And what the other person on the panel, one of the project managers, said, was that he had won, no, he had lost a bet because the pre-entry Hubble data of Mars, you know, looking across space from Earth orbit with Hubble, taking pictures of Mars, has shown us now for the last year or so that Mars right now is much colder and drier with much less dust and a clearer atmosphere.
And the Hubble people who were taking pictures with Hubble of Mars were claiming that when they landed and turned the camera on, they should see blue skies, dark blue skies, and water ice clouds, white clouds in the sky.
And the project guy from Pathfinder said, and I'm really surprised because on these pictures, it looks like Viking.
Now, here's an interesting problem.
If you're preparing a simulation and the only data you have from Mars is Viking data, that's what you're going to have to go with if you're preparing a sim.
What I'm intrigued with is that the data from the surface on this mission is looking like Viking when the Hubble data says it should not look like Viking.
Well, when they raised it, of course, their father from the lander, so they actually said at the time they took that last stream of data, it was about zero degrees Fahrenheit.
But what they were remarking was the incredible similarity to Viking data.
But the separation between the technically possible and the politically possible are two separate questions.
What I'm also saying is that the backdrop to this mission and to the events preceding in this month of July, culminating with something, as I'm projecting on the 20th, pretty astonishing, is such as to raise profound questions in my own mind, and I want people to keep an open mind and continue to ask hard questions.
Well it's to me it's scary how easy it would be to create the illusion that what we're seeing is from Mars.
unidentified
I think your idea is plausible and possible.
What happens to you Mr. Hoagland?
What I'm hoping to do.
Previous satellites or however you call them that were sent to Mars, is it possible that the last one which apparently disappeared, is it possible that that whole disappearance was engineered and it is in fact on Mars today?
But you raise a really profound point, which is this.
The Mars Observer Orbiting Spacecraft was designed to get us one meter color pictures of selected portions of the Mars surface.
If that spacecraft had been used to secretly acquire data, which four separate engineers in 93 called me and told me it was doing, and it acquired data of this landing site, and they then used that digital data to construct a three-dimensional shape-from shading model of the surface at a far higher resolution than Viking,
and then put that data into a 3D computer program with proper supercomputer facilities, totally technically possible.
And then we're seeing that 3D model projected behind the lander and rover.
In other words, what I'm saying is not that this is happening, but that it could happen.
And for God's sake, folks, start asking questions.
Don't just accept what John Holliman shows you from CNN.
If you're asking me, right, the fuel question, the mid-course correction, these are reasonable questions, but I think that the evidence in front of us is more compelling than the questions that you have raised indicating to me that we really are on Mars.
I mean, I'm just making that judgment, and I can't sit here and prove a negative to you.
Until we get that independent radio telescope confirmation, I mean really independent.
Not somebody who is, you know, sucking up to the federal tit and whose job and vocation and future contracts are totally dependent on a government, you know, largest.
The previous example I was going to give you was through Peter Davenport, and Peter can attest to the accuracy of this.
We had found an owner of a large antenna farm that was involved with commercial satellite transmissions and communication that was interested in making available technical time for us to listen to Mars Observer to find out if it was still out there.
And in 24 hours between the time the Davenport had the conversation, this guy had a conversation with some federal people and suddenly got very uninterested in helping me prove that Mars Observer was still alive and well out there.
That's the kind of pressure that was brought to bear and could be brought to bear.
Well, but the difference is that the photographic evidence we have from the moon is of a much more primitive and in a weird way convincing nature.
The technology during the Apollo missions was such that you could not have faked on this archive data, including the stuff that Ken Johnson put away, the level of structures and consistency of evidence of artifacts that we have now been analyzing for the last five years.
In the digital world, in the virtual reality world that we inhabit tonight, given enough black money, not only can you fake Mars, but you can fake the signals coming from landlines to these JPL people so they think they're looking at Mars.
Number one, why would NASA go to the trouble to fake a landing on Mars and take the chance that they'd be found out by Richard Hoagland and others?
And the second question is, they always talk about the pyramids at Giza and the ones on Mars and different places.
But nothing is ever said about the huge pyramids in China or the pyramid that they located during World War II when the Allies were flying supply missions into Burma over the hump.
All right, well, I think we'll pass on the second question and address the first and try to keep it short if possible because it winds into a very long explanation.
It's part of a larger disinformation by a core group in the agency, if our evidence is to be believed, to consistently keep the human race from knowing that it is not alone, that there are other structures built by potentially perhaps even relatives now, that we have a different history than we have thought heretofore.
In other words, this is not just something that we made up yesterday morning.
If this is going on, it's part of a much bigger problem, and it is kind of analogous to Roswell.
Remember when you asked Jamie Chanderet why Roswell?
And he said, well, it's not Roswell, it's all the other stuff they've been covering up ever since Roswell.
And if they admit that Roswell was real, all the rest will fall out of the closet.
And I think that just as this major, was it Major Dames can stand right there in front of you and lie, and the majority of people believe him, let's face it.
unidentified
Well, ma'am, I think that the same thing can be done.
I said it's a damn important distinction when you start calling somebody a liar.
unidentified
I think that I mean the man that said all that major that said all that stuff about the NASA thing the other the guy are you talking about the Air Force are you talking about the Air Force press conference?
When they can stand in front of you and lie, bold-faced, many, many people of the government, I wouldn't find us a reason, except for wishful thinking, to believe them now.
unidentified
I think that they are more inclined to lie to us than they are to tell us the truth.
Therefore, with all these deaths happening also, I'm more inclined to believe that this is more or less some kind of political, highly political motive.
And this show, Art Bell and Richard Hoagland, you guys have got everybody talking.
richard hoagland is here and we'll get back to him and our caller in a moment Now we take you back to the night of July 4th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Okay, as I was saying, I think that you don't realize the impact that your show has had.
And I know you don't want to say it because it sounds probably egotistical, but you have impacted TV shows, copycat shows on the radio, and I think that you have it more in mind.
It's grown and it's big and a lot of people listen.
Consider the possibility, Richard, that what you've been saying, what you've been pounding on, might have caused them to decide, let's land on July 4th.
Apparently, Jennings, they did a piece on the face on Mars, and they specifically took excerpts from our NASA briefing at NASA Lewis, and they used some of my comments in an effort to dismiss the whole subject of credence and credibility, et cetera, et cetera.
That would suggest that somebody thinks that this investigation is a threat to something.
When I was at JPL 20 years ago for Viking, Jimmy Carter, President of the United States, got on the phone with Ed Beggs and personally congratulated him.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hogland.
unidentified
Hi.
Yes, good evening, Art.
Good evening, Richard.
Good evening.
Just wanted to make a comment and want both of you to think about this.
And Richard, good idea on the reversals, by the way.
Remind yourselves of the reversals of the NASA people and Haynes.
Richard, what you said about Egypt, Phoenix, and Sidonia Chai, and Larry Hunter and that ceremony, which he did not go into when you were talking about it.
You know, having lived through these and having lived through the extraordinary ups, I really, and I'm trying to communicate this, I have been so torn today because part of me resonated to the way it used to be when we were all much younger and more naive.
And the other part said to me, wait a minute, it's just too damn good.
If that rover is not deployed or deployable, it is a fundamental, how should I put this delicately, it's a fundamental piece of evidence in favor of that this is not what it's cracked up to be.
Question number one, could it be possible that the extra fuel on the main bus of the spacecraft was there because there might be a second lander which could be and then sent around Mars and landed on the 20th?
Yeah, it has to do with these numbers are assigned to payloads long before flight time, and they would switch and mix and match, and so the numbers have gotten totally out of sync.
unidentified
Well, this is a replay of the 83 mission that came down early.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
Hi.
unidentified
Yeah, I just wanted to know, why didn't NASA just come out on the 20th or say that they were going to land on the 20th instead of saying, okay, it's going to be on July 4th and, you know, do all this.
Well, the answer to that is a long-drawn out one that we have covered extensively in five-hour programs.
The answer is, and I can give it, saving a lot of trouble here, That there are things that they want to look at in the Sidonia region that they don't want us to look at, put simply, things that would indicate that we are not alone or that at one time we were not alone, however you want to look at it.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Holand.
unidentified
Hi, Art.
This is Chad out of Dallas, Texas.
Hi.
I just wanted to make a comment based upon something that Richard mentioned a little while ago.
He was talking about some intelligence that he had about some secret base activity going on in Dallas.
Yeah, well, I live just to the east of Dallas in a place called Deep Bellum, and I have to take 30 into 75 every day.
There's a building that's just on the east side of Dallas that just in the last week suddenly has a massive array of satellite dish antennas suddenly installed there.
It was something we just noticed today.
Actually, I haven't driven there in the last couple of days.
And like I said, I take this route all the time.
One of the reasons why I kind of look that direction, well, it's the skyline of Dallas, one thing, but there's a lottery billboard.
It tells you how much lottery is for in Texas and everything.
And the building is just right to the southeast of the Trammell Crow building.
And it's not a very conspicuous building, but it is now.
There's at least 30 very large, identical antenna, a dish antenna, up there that are manila-colored.
And they all face to kind of the southeast, which if you're in Dallas, and with the hellbop and everything that happened the last couple of months, I have a tendency to just kind of look up and check out the stars and everything.
And Mars was pretty spectacular about a month ago.
And it tracks kind of to the southeast of Dallas.
So that might be something that can lend some credence to.
There's a phenomena called vacuum cohesion, where without gases in an atmosphere, if you have particles tiny enough, fine enough, like confectioner's sugar, if you press a boot print or a handprint in that matrix without an air, without an atmosphere, the particles will cohere.
They'll stick to each other without water, and they will leave the impression.
I want grad students sitting in the middle of the night, you know, doing, like they do in these movies where they hear these SETI signals.
I want hams.
I want anybody who has a decent antenna that can tune in on this frequency to tell us if this thing is in space traveling with Mars or it's down on the surface.
And the Doppler shift should definitively tell us.
Number two, I want people to show up on the 14th in Phoenix.
You know, we're having a large event.
We're going to reveal a lot of interesting new material on the genesis of Phoenix, the derivations.