Jamie Shandera and J. Bond Johnson debunk the Air Force’s 1947 Roswell weather balloon claim, citing Johnson’s unaltered photos of metallic, foil-like debris covering half a mile—far exceeding balloon size—and General Ramey’s baffled handling of it. Shandera reveals a second site discovery (July 8) with deteriorated bodies and craft remnants, contradicting official narratives, while noting MJ-12’s classified oversight under Eisenhower’s "need-to-know" directive. Secrecy escalated at Wright-Patterson’s SCIF, where recovered materials were stored underground, and whistleblowers face retaliation, suggesting decades of suppressed evidence about extraterrestrial technology and government complicity. [Automatically generated summary]
I bid you all good evening this morning, as the case may be, across all these many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains in the west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
During the next few evenings, we are going to, in effect, be answering the Air Force News Conference with respect to Roswell.
As you know, the 50th anniversary of Roswell is upon us.
And in Roswell, thousands, tens of thousands, will be gathering to celebrate the anniversary of an event that these people believe was the first real contact with extraterrestrial life forms in what is said to have been a crash near Roswell, New Mexico.
And the only way I can think of to answer what the Air Force has given us, which basically is, in my opinion, nonsensical and probably more easily believed by the dummies displayed than the American public, we're going to try and lay it out very carefully for you.
There are a number of things occurring simultaneously.
There are some things which tonight I'm not going to mention that are going on in Phoenix that I'm studying and trying to put together.
A lot of synchronicity here may be too much for me.
I'll have more on the Phoenix situation for you tomorrow.
And I also will have for you tomorrow a bit of a teaser on a press conference scheduled for 9 o'clock, July 4th, 1997, at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute campus in Roswell, at which time there will be a presentation of scientific tests performed on crashed debris found near Roswell,
New Mexico, 50 years ago that get this once and for all will prove the downed vehicle was not of Earth origin.
A research scientist from a major university involved in the testing is going to be on hand to discuss the methodology and the results of the isotopic ratio tests of the Roswell debris.
Now, there are certain isotopic ratios that are consistent or not consistent with Earth-originated materials.
Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities and national labs will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is, if this, manufactured, an important word, manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.
Period.
In other words, they are going to suggest Roswell case closed.
They claim they have materials which they can prove are not of Earth origin, which they can prove are manufactured materials.
So what does that mean?
That means we have manufactured materials not of Earth collected.
They're going to suggest or prove at Roswell.
Now, the scientific aspects of this apparently are said to be ironclad.
We shall see.
Tomorrow night, I will have a guest who will preview some of that material for you.
Tonight, we are going to trace for you, in a lot of ways, the origins of the entire Roswell incident.
For 50 years, the photographs taken in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, that's a very important date, folks, not 1953, not 1959, but July 8th, 1947, have been thought to be the remnants of a weather balloon as part of the government's cover-up of what really occurred.
But clear testimony and careful research reveal a very different story.
In fact, the events leading up to the photographs taken that day form the only finite timeline that indicates clear government cooperation until a momentous discovery caused the shroud of secrecy to descend.
Researchers and other experts think the seven photographs taken in General Ramey's Fort Worth office show remnants from a weather balloon and assume that they were part of the cover story.
But photographs are only evidentiary support of the personal testimony of the individuals who were actually in the room and handled that material.
Carefully researched and documented interviews are supported by statements from Associated Press and other newspaper articles, revealing very clearly that four of the photographs left the general's office prior to the order for cover-up.
The government had been cooperating with the press up until the second field team over in Roswell with aerial reconnaissance made a crucial discovery.
But by this time, they had already allowed the photographs of extraterrestrial debris to leave the general's office.
Because of the innocuous nature of the debris, they chose to call it, quote, remnants of a weather balloon, end quote.
Jamie Chanderea, Shandarea, I'm going to have a tough time with this, Ph.D., U.S. Army.
No, let me correct that.
Let me start with Jamie.
Chandereya has been a director, producer, investigative journalist for 30 years.
He has worked behind the scenes, guiding productions in news documentaries, political campaigns, national and international commercials, and thousands of shows of every variety.
Over the last 15 years, his primary focus has been the investigation into what the U.S. government knows about extraterrestrials, fact or fiction.
He received the controversial MJ-12 documents anonymously in the mail in 1984.
Despite relentless effort, debunkers have never been able to definitively disprove the documents regardless of their claims.
While researching documents in the National Archives, he also discovered the Cutler Twining document, that would be General Twining, and he created the Aviary, which has taken on a mythical life of its own, that's true.
It is composed of intelligence sources, the true identities, which have never been revealed.
He has sustained the longest-running inside investigation into the world's greatest secret.
The initial crash at Roswell was just the beginning.
Communicated encounters, technological exchanges, alien ambassadors, test flights in alien craft.
It's all part of the history you didn't know.
Harry Truman said it best when he stated, the only thing new in the world is the history you didn't know.
So in a moment, Jamie Chanderet is going to be Ph.D., who actually is the man who shot most of the photographs in Raimi's office and actually handled the debris, is also going to be on the air.
So we are going to take a very careful look at what really did occur in Roswell.
And if you are interested, I suggest you stay tuned.
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All right.
Now, at it for over 30 years investigating all of this is Jamie Chanderet.
Well, actually, of the 30 years, the first 15 were my training ground.
I spent a lot of years in news and shooting documentaries, and that sort of laid the groundwork for what was to come along.
And it was in, I guess, 1982 when William Moore, who had written the original Roswell Incident book that Stan Friedman had researched on, and Charles Berlitz actually wrote the text for that book.
He had contacted me because the source had made contact with him when that book was published, a source inside the intelligence community, somebody who wanted to share information.
And he'd been dealing with his deep throat for a while when he came to me.
I'd known him for a couple of years.
And he thought that maybe we could raise some money and do a film.
And I said, well, if I've learned anything in the time I've been in this business, raising money to do a film is the last thing I'm interested in.
But what I do see here is something very interesting, a situation very much analogous to Watergate.
If indeed this source that's feeding information is bona fide, then why is he cultivating people in the private sector to feed this information to?
So it wasn't that I bought in immediately and said, oh, wow, this is great.
It looked like an interesting story either way, because the story he was telling had to do with the government's role in all of this.
And if he was telling the real story, then there's no story bigger.
But if he wasn't telling the real story, then it was still interesting to me, because why was he cultivating people in the private sector to run a hoax like this on?
What ultimately I decided I had to do, and all my years in documentaries and news, was a terrific training ground for me.
Because if you do a documentary about a different culture, about a different thing, you have to really reach the mindset of the people that you're shooting.
Sure.
To be able to tell their story from their perspective, to be able to translate it so that others that don't understand them can understand them.
So I felt I had to do the exact same thing with the intelligence community.
I had to absorb and understand and be able to interface with the intelligence community to understand what was going on.
And it was an incredible education because the intelligence community is truly a subculture.
And I don't mean that in any negative sense, per se.
The guard against this in America is supposed to be the press, the newspapers, the investigative broadcast media, and so forth and so on.
Has the press fulfilled its duty in this regard over the years as the ongoing examination of Roswell and not just Roswell, but what goes beyond Roswell, contact with alien beings, recovered crash debris, and so forth and so on is concerned.
Did the press do its job at that press conference?
I mean, they did ask about the six-year gap between the beginning of the experiments with the dummies and the experimental aircraft and the balloon trains and all the rest of it.
Beginning in 1953 through 1969, they asked this Colonel, how can you explain this six-year minimum difference?
And the Colonel said his answer was time compression, that people forget dates and events.
And they did come back and say, but six years, Colonel, and he just sort of looked perplexed, paused, and said, well, I really don't have an answer.
Yeah, it's a shame somebody didn't ask him about dummy compression because, you know, with the number of bodies found together, we only saw single dummies being dropped in individual parachutes.
There's also a major discrepancy pointed out by the Time magazine article when the retired Colonel Weaver, and Weaver is an interesting name because Weaver is the one who gave birth to that six-pound baby a couple of years ago, the report on the mogul balloons.
You know, that six-pound book of a textbook in propaganda.
Why do you think the Air Force felt compelled at this time, and a lot of people ask this question, after the 1994 report, to come back again and attempt to explain away right on the anniversary of Roswell, once again, the same thing, only with a little added bonus of dummies, which, by the way, were full human size.
They actually showed photographs of them with some test pilots and so forth.
Why did they feel the need to come back now and try and explain the whole thing away again?
As a matter of fact, if you look at the Roswell celebration coming up as a commercial venture, it seems to me that the people who are putting this on should have authored a letter of absolute thanks to the Air Force for that press conference because nothing could have given it a bigger boost than what they did.
If you would, how sure are you that what crashed at Roswell was not a balloon or a balloon train, and that the dummies that they showed us were not, in fact, the bodies that everybody has claimed were recovered along with a cramp at Roswell or near Roswell?
All right, it's a whole stacked and layered scenario that is actually quite fascinating because it takes place over several time zones all at the same time with competing events.
As we go to the original Roswell scenario, which was that on the night of July 2nd, electrical storm, there was an explosion heard in the night sky, which would indicate something obviously not crashed on the ground, but exploded in the sky.
Now, that was reported in the newspaper and stuff the next day.
The Wilmots sitting on their porch and so forth.
They witnessed that it was heard by Mac Brazzle, the rancher, out in a ranch house with no radio, no newspaper, or anything else.
His family lived off near Corona where the kids could go to school.
He'd been out there for weeks, and he normally was weeks at a time.
The next day, on July 3rd, he goes out to the field and sees all this debris scattered everywhere.
Pulled some of the bigger chunks into a little shed.
Then the next night, he was in a bar in Corona, New Mexico, and he heard, which is the 4th of July, and he heard these stories of these silver-streaking things seen all over the country.
And he started telling tales about his finds.
And somebody said, well, maybe this is one of those silver-streaking things.
You should get it into Roswell.
So the next day, he went back to the ranch.
He collected his wool.
He collected some pieces, and he headed into town the following day, July 6th, the Sunday.
Went to the sheriff's office.
In the sheriff's office, the sheriff said, well, you get a crash of something out there.
You better call the base.
They call the base, and they get Major Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer, at the officers' club having lunch.
That is some of there's two actual locations ultimately that were discovered.
The first was the debris site that Mac Brazil and that we're discussing right at this moment.
Some of the, and then there was eventually another site where the main part of the craft and bodies were located.
But Mac Brazil wasn't aware of that, nor was Marcel or Cavett as of July 7th.
Now, I had talked to, what was it, Master Sergeant Rickett?
He was Counterintelligence Corps.
They don't normally go by the rank.
When they're counter-intelligence, they can kind of move in their own way.
The Counterintelligence Corps units were not under the base commander's control.
They were under Counterintelligence Corps out of Washington, under their control.
Anyway, he told me very specifically when he was at the craft site that he held one of those pieces that you're talking about that would crumple in your hand and then you let go of it and it boom, went right back to its original shape.
So on back to the seventh now, as they come back into town, Gavin goes straight to the base with his material and Marcel stops by at his house, wakes his son up, has him come down, they take some of the pieces out, and he was very excited about this otherworldly stuff they had because he had seen most everything that flew.
And they tried to piece some of it together, but it was just too big of a task.
All right, I have interviewed Jesse Marcel Jr. on this program.
He tells the exact tale you're talking about, remembers his father coming home, remembers handling material that was more substantial than the foil, bars with very strange dye beams or symbols embedded in the embedded.
That's right.
He ran his fingers over those symbols, and so he physically had them in his hands.
Yeah, and I've talked to him also, and I've gone through all the different pieces on that.
So anyway, so Major Marcel puts the stuff back in the vehicle and it heads back to the base.
Now, at that point, the next question is at what point did this stuff get over to Fort Worth?
Because we know the following day, on July 8th, that material shows up at Fort Worth, and there were pictures taken of material in Fort Worth.
Now, the controversy, or the thing that was always thought, was that the material shot in Fort Worth, and the reason Fort Worth comes in the picture is this, at Fort Worth was Carswell Airfield.
Now, Carswell was the home of the commanding general of the 8th Army Air Forces.
Roswell base was under, the Roswell Army Airfield was under the 8th Army Air Forces command, and so General Ramey would be the first general in the chain of command.
They were all under the strategic air command.
Roswell, of course, was extremely important because it was the only atomic bomber wing in the world.
In July of 47, we were the only ones that had the atomic bomb, and the elite that flew them were all stationed at Roswell.
All right, so the question then is, when did it go over?
How did it go over?
And what happened to it?
And how did the story that it was a weather balloon in Raimi's office come about?
It came about for several reasons.
Number one, the captions that are showed in the paper of July 9th indicated that this was some kind of a radar reflector from a weather balloon.
And that was accepted all the way along with one slight aberration.
And that one aberration was Major Jesse Marcel's testimony.
He claimed that his picture, taken in General Ramey's office, was taken with actual debris.
None of the exciting stuff, but very innocuous debris.
The more exciting stuff was still out in the belly of the plane, under armed guard, waiting to be shipped to Wright Field, where the Air Material Command and the Foreign Technology, which, you know, ultimately the Foreign Technology Division and others could begin the examination of it.
Now, I was looking one day at the Roswell Incident book that Bill Moore had co-authored, and I said to Bill, I said, something's a little strange here to me.
You've got Jesse Marcel with this debris, and it says that, and he very clearly said, and he said it in four different interviews, that the debris in the picture that he was in was the real stuff.
I said, but this picture with Raimi and then Colonel, Chief of Staff of the Eighth Army Air Forces, Colonel DeBose, it says that stuff was substituted and a picture was taken.
It looks like the same stuff.
So I don't understand the difference here.
Well, it turned out that the reason that it said that in the caption underneath the Raimi and DeBose picture was because Jesse Marcel had speculated that after he was ordered out, that they changed the stuff and had pictures taken with a Westerballoon.
Well, at about the time that Unsolved Mysteries did a big Roswell piece, interest in the Roswell incident began to escalate enormously.
And into the picture enters J. Bond Johnson.
And J. Bond Johnson contacted me one day because he had seen my name on something and he saw that I used to work with RKO General.
And he had done some stuff with RKO Pictures at one point, and he thought we might have something in common, and he was interested in learning more about what was going on in the investigations on Roswell.
Well, J. Bond Johnson, it turns out, in 1947, was a Cub reporter slash photographer for the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
And it just turns out that on that particular day, July 8th, he was sitting in the paper when the city editor ripped off something off the wire that indicated that the flying disc that had been recovered in Roswell was now on its way to General Ramey's office.
And the city editor asked, Bond, do you have your camera in your car?
And he says, well, I sure do.
He says, well, then get your butt over to the base and get up to Ramey's office and get a picture of this thing.
So he did.
Now, earlier that day, we know that Walter Hout had put out a press release under the orders of Colonel Blanchard.
We know that the time that that happened at approximately 11.30 because we know that that's what Walter Hout said, number one, but that's backed up by the fact that when he gave it to Frank Joyce in the rotation that they did normally in Roswell.
Frank Joyce was eating his lunch, and it was sometime around noon.
And then Frank Joyce took his time getting it around, and then eventually to the Western Union Wire Service around 2 o'clock out of Santa Fe.
And that's when it hit big time all over the world that a flying disc had been recovered.
Now, that is backed up by the fact that the other newspaper in town, other than the Roswell Record, that they began their evening shift, and they almost could not get a paper out because starting at 2 o'clock, the phones began ringing off the hook.
People from all over the world were trying to descend upon Roswell to find information of this stuff.
Now, when Blanchard told Hout to put out the press release at 11.30, Hout asked him if he could see the stuff.
And this is in many interviews with Walper Houten.
Now, the Associated Press, in their efforts to find it, had determined specifically, and it's in numerous AP articles on the story, that the plane left with the debris at 10 a.m. on July 8th.
And as the press release said, it was released to hire headquarters, accompanied by Major Marcel.
But it didn't say where higher headquarters were.
So the press was going crazy.
They were trying to find this stuff, and they were just sending on Roswell looking for it.
But they found it had already left at 10 a.m.
Now, the important thing about the 10 a.m. timeframe is this.
When Blanchard goes to Walter Howard at 11.30, with the material already gone, that means he, Blanchard, had already notified Hire Headquarters.
Higher Headquarters saw enough importance in this that get it to Raimi's office, let Raimi look at it first.
He's the first general in the chain of command, and then on to Wright Field.
So when Blanchard put out the press release, he did that only on orders from Washington.
Blanchard didn't do that press release on his own.
He would have been usurping higher command if he had, and he had already released that material.
It was no longer his prerogative to make that decision.
Now, what it turns out that then Colonel DuBose, and then as a retired general, when I interviewed him, he indicated very clearly that General Clements McMullen was directing the show from Washington.
And General Clements McMullen was then acting director of the Strategic Air Command.
Now, as Acting Director of the Strategic Air Command, what he was doing was getting each individual in this case, Blanchard, DuBose, Ramey, and talking to them and giving them specific orders.
There's no chain of command.
He was directing everything to each individual.
And he told Blanchard to send a portion of that with a courier over to Fort Worth.
And he told DuBose to meet that plane, take that in, and look at it.
The sound bites in General DuBose's mind of 40 or so years earlier had been the fact that Clements McMullen ordered them to do this.
He had ordered them ultimately to send it to him and ordered them ultimately to, don't you ever speak of this again?
Don't you tell your wife?
Don't you tell your son?
Don't you tell anybody?
As long as you live, you're out of it now.
Do you understand?
And he said, by God, I was a good soldier, and I never spoke of it again.
And he told Raimi the same thing, and neither one of us ever talked about it.
And we were good buddies.
We flew missions during the war.
We golfed together.
We had long trips in the cars.
We did break there.
So they never spoke of it.
So his sound bites, his chunks of memory were mostly the command from General Clements McMullen.
The debris was uninteresting.
So he forgot a whole chunk of things.
So he told a story that goes like this.
That Blanchard sent a pouch over with a courier, that he, DeVose, met the plane, that he handed over to another courier to get on another plane to go to Washington.
Now, as he told the story, he said that General McMullen told him to look at it, and then he tells a story about meeting the plane and giving to another courier and going on.
Well, something struck me as being real odd in this picture.
What's odd is planes flew from Roswell to Washington.
Why would you ever courier something to Fort Worth to change couriers and change planes and send it to Washington from there?
The first courier could be debriefed by somebody, because he would know, you know, if it's Marcel, he was there at the field.
He is an investigative journalist, and he has been working on Roswell for 30 years.
Joining us shortly is J. Bond Johnson, Ph.D., who shot most of the photographs in General Ramey's office and, in fact, handled the debris.
He even arranged for the photographs.
He asked General Ramey what the material was, and General Ramey stated, quote, we don't know what the hell it is, end quote.
Johnson was there because he was a reporter photographer for the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
His city editor had, as you learned this last hour, if you've been with us, had sent him over to the base because of a wire story saying that parts of the flying disc recovered in Roswell were now in General Ramey's office.
His testimony is supported by General Ramey, General DuBose, and Major Marcel.
J. Bond Johnson, Ph.D. U.S. Army Colonel retired now, holds his doctorate in psychology and has an undergraduate degree in journalism, served four tours of duty at the Pentagon and one tour of duty at the White House with the National Security Council.
At NSC, he was under Generals Haig and Skokra in PsycOps.
Concurrently, he is a clinical psychologist, and get this, a United Methodist minister.
He'll join us in a moment and talk about the photographs that he took in General Ramey's office, the material that he handled.
This all relates now to the entire Roswell story that we're going to try to unwind for you, as the Air Force did not in their news conference the other day.
So back to it in a moment.
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Once again, back now to Jamie Chanderer.
Jamie, to recap for those who might be joining us this hour, an explosion at Roswell, July 2nd, 1947.
Debris found in a farmer's field there.
A collection of all that material.
And then if I've got it correct, that material apparently was flown to Fort Worth first, and then on to Wright Field, now known as Wright-Patterson.
Correct.
During the time that it was at Fort Worth in General Ramey's office.
A small portion of it, a small portion of it, it was photographed by a man we're about to bring on the air.
In other words, somebody who was really there at the time.
And in fact, it was my discussion with Dr. Johnson that opened my eyes to this whole thing, because he stated, you know, when he was in that office, they didn't talk about Weathermoor.
There's no discussion of Weathermoor.
They didn't know what it was.
And suddenly, what I found was in researching newspaper microfilm, I found a Los Angeles Herald Express, the defunct paper from many years ago.
And on the front page, they had indicated, Associated Press had indicated, that General Vandenberg had gone into AAF, Army Air Forces still at that time in July, the AAF press headquarters to monitor the recovery of this flying disc.
The Associated Press reporters were there in Washington at the AAF press room, and General Ramey was in telephone communications with General Vandenberg, and General Vandenberg asked him what the stuff looked like, and Ramey is quoted by the Associated Press on July 8th.
Now, this is very important, that only on July 8th, Ramey tells Vandenberg, who was acting chief of staff at that time, because Tue Spatz, the chief of staff, was on vacation in the Pacific Northwest.
He was telling Vandenberg that they didn't know what this Was.
It was foil-like material that it could be 20 to 25 feet in diameter if reconstructed.
Now, that's a different story than he was telling by the next day.
Now, I was already pointed out to those who were with us the last hour, that Blanchard did not put that, Colonel Blanchard, the base commander at Roswell, did not put that press release out on his own volition.
He was ordered from Washington to do it because the material had already left his control.
So only under the orders of Hirate Command could he ever have put out that press release.
Now, the word captures is in there for a very particular reason.
Now, we've, if you go to microfilm of any library in the country that has microfilm from a newspaper from 1947, and I would have the audience, anybody now wants to do this, go do it.
It's an incredible exercise.
Go to June of 1947, go down toward the end of June, and you will find every single day a front-page story, if not headlines, about flying discs and flying saucers being seen all across the country.
During this momentous news conference the Air Force had the other day, why wasn't some of the chain of evidence that you're now giving us presented and why weren't questions asked about these specific things during that news conference?
Well, this goes, I can answer that very clearly because of the very nature of the investigation as I began it in this whole thing back in 1982 with Bill Moore, in this integration into the intelligence community.
One of the things that's happened is the disinformation we were talking about earlier.
Disinformation is a very, very important process in intelligence work.
But what you find with disinformation is this.
The bigger the disinformation program, the more important the subject matter.
The purpose of disinformation is to protect the source of something incredibly important.
So if they want to get information out about something, but they cannot allow anybody to access the source, then they have to paint it with what Winston Churchill used to call, he had the dictum originally, in the time of war, the truth is so valuable, it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies.
And that is the genesis of where disinformation comes from.
You pack truth in, but you pack not lies out of whole cloth, but misdirection toward the truth.
Now, the problem with the press is they feel that you're lying to me.
And if you're going to lie to me, I don't trust you and I won't talk to you.
Well, that's unfortunate.
I understand that, but it's unfortunate because unless you can try to insinuate yourself into a situation, understand how somebody else operates, if you're going to put a wall between you, then you're never going to get educated as to how you can deal with the situation.
All right, but Jamie, look, in the press conference the Air Force had, they clearly laid out the fact that all of this began not in 1947.
They did at least ask that question.
They said, Colonel, was any of this going on in 1947?
No, he said.
It didn't begin until 1953.
Now, you're talking about a chain of nearly irrefutable evidence.
I mean, newspaper headlines, photographs, General Ramey's office, what we're about to hear from J-Bon Johnson, all the rest of it that occurred not in 1953, but in 1947.
And the Colonel could only talk about time compression and people forgetting dates and all the rest of it.
But I mean, we've got, as you point out, newspaper headlines, a whole chain of evidence that occurred in 1947.
Why didn't somebody lay this out for the Colonel and require some sort of answer?
The headlines we're talking about only showed up in the western United States.
Before that day of July 8th was over, something dramatic happened, and the cooperation that the Air Force was having slammed shut.
It was important to the Air Force initially to show some of this innocuous debris, to put a headline out that says captures, to show that they're in control.
Because in addition to these headlines talking about everybody seeing these flying discs, General Twining is being interviewed, Tui Spatz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force is being interviewed, and they're saying, what are these streaking things?
And their answer in each case was, we don't know.
It's not ours.
It's not experimental.
We don't know.
Now, that's an untenable position for the military to be in, especially the all-powerful U.S. military following World War II.
We're still in a post-war period, as it were.
Now, the fact that they found this innocuous stuff, they're looking for it.
There's no weapons.
There's nothing dangerous here.
There's nothing to say that this thing was anything more than perhaps a probe.
We don't know.
But let's show some of it.
Let's put it on display.
Let's cooperate.
But let's keep the more exotic stuff.
Let's get it over to study.
Now, while this was going on in Fort Worth, that very morning, July 8th, a second and much larger team, based on the reports of Marcel and Sheridan Cavett from the day before, of how much debris was in that field, a much larger contingent with trucks and manpower and aerial reconnaissance went back to the site in Roswell.
So as the day is unfolding over in Fort Worth, they're showing the stuff and they put out another release saying that the stuff that the press couldn't find earlier is now over in Raimi's office and they're going to show it.
Well, then you have to ask yourself a couple questions.
Well, why if this was weather, why would they put it in the general's office?
All right, so the contingent out in Roswell, with aerial reconnaissance, discovers The main part of the craft and where it landed, and the body.
This gets reported back through channels, shot through Blanchard, on up the line, and General Clements McMullen gets it in Washington.
And by the time he gets it, what has happened is Bon Johnson being the closest in proximity to the base of all the different reporters that might have had an opportunity to get over there.
He's left his office, he's gone over to the base, he walks in, then Raimi comes in, he asks him what is this stuff, and he doesn't know what the hell it is.
One of the things I did when I first talked to Bond was I had him go through for me how the newspaper operated.
So I got into the mix of the day and so we could clarify more correctly the timeframes.
One of the problems I've always found is when people, for many, many years past, will say, well, something happened exactly at 4 o'clock.
Well, geez, how do you remember all these years it was 4 o'clock?
What was it that made you remember that?
And Bond had remembered it was roughly 4 o'clock when he was told to go over there.
So as we traced through the timeframe it taken to get to the base, how long he was at the base and how long it took him to get back and so forth, everything corroborated because the day shift was gone and so forth.
But Bond, why don't you pick up from here and say what happened?
What did the city editor say to you and what was the purpose of you going over there?
And I would have expected to be directed to some hangar.
I had covered as a police reporter, and then I was the military reporter after the war.
I went away, and I was in the Air Corps as a pilot cadet during the latter part of the war and came back to the Star Telegram and was assigned into the afternoon beat and covered the military bases.
And so I had been a number of times to General Ramey's office and to the Fort Worth Army Airfield.
I was surprised because in other instances when there was an airplane crash, they would invariably set it up, reconstruct it in a hangar.
All right, Doctor, we're at the bottom of the hour.
So both of you stand by, and we will be right back.
My guests are Jamie Chanderea and Dr. J. Bond Johnson, who was in Dr. Doctor, in General Raimi's office with the materials that had allegedly just come from Roswell.
My guest is Jamie Chanderea, an investigative journalist for 30 years.
He's been looking into Roswell for a long time.
Also with us is Dr. Bo Johnson.
Dr. Johnson, all those years ago, 50 years ago, coming up on that exact anniversary, was in General Ramey's office in Fort Worth, actually taking photographs of what was said to be the debris from Roswell, which actually arrived before he did at the general's office, and we'll pick it up at that point in a moment.
Gee, I wish Colonel Haynes was here.
Did you see the video of that water spout churning in the water off Miami?
Did you hear about all the damage in the twin cities last night?
Are you aware of the weather changing?
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All right, back now to Jamie Shanderea and Dr. J. Bon Johnson.
All right, what was going on at the exact moment that Bon Johnson was shooting those pictures is that the other team in Roswell with aerial reconnaissance was discovering the main part of the craft and the bodies.
Now, since this is all being directed by Washington, they get this information back to Blanchard, get a ground crew over there to see what, you know, to verify.
Blanchard notifies higher headquarters, and suddenly, Johnson's taking his pictures, he'd have left and gone back to the paper.
And he'll fill you in on what's the chaos that was going on in the newspaper when he got back because the Associated Press had brought in a wire photo machine.
I didn't take as many as I might because there were no other angles.
You know what I mean, it was just a pile of junk there, and I had had a little time to lay it out.
It was, in hindsight, it seems kind of incredible that I was left alone in this room.
And if this was important material, Colonel DeBose, chief of staff, had ushered me into the general's office and told me that the general would be there shortly.
And so I was setting up to get ready for the photos and laid this material out on the carpet there.
And here I was in the room alone.
And I only had the foresight to, I could have crushed the material or done a lot of things with it.
They claimed, if I heard correctly, and I'm sure I did, that none of this kind of testing involving balloons or balloon trains was going on in 1947, but rather began in 1953.
So in other words, the material you were photographing didn't exist until 1953, according to the Air Force.
Well, I think like a lot of the other press people there, it was kind of, if I could hear the tittering that was going on, it seemed to be a ludicrous response from the media.
That was my feel.
And I thought that was one of the saddest comparisons.
I remember clearly in 1947 when General Ramey explained what's now called the cover-up, the disinformation explanation, that we all accepted it as gospel.
I had just been in the Air Corps, and when a general said something, we saluted and said, aye, aye, sir.
There was no question about at all.
Here was a West Pointer, a man of high integrity, and there was no question, not from the press at all, as to, are you sure, or anything like that.
Yes, I remember calling in, and the city editor said, hurry back, that they're sending over a wire photo machine from Dallas, which was 30-some odd miles.
And at the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, we normally did not have wire photo sending capabilities.
And when we have an important story, they would hurry a portable wire photo transmitter over.
And so by the time I got there, back to the office, this machine was already there, and there were several people around, the technicians flustering about.
And I can remember that they bombarded me.
You know, they wanted it right now.
And I said, well, I've got to develop them.
Well, you know, give us wet prints, which a photographer hates to do.
You know, a photographer likes to take his time and process it properly and fix it, you know, with the hypo and so forth, and dry the negative and then enlarge it and so forth.
There was not time for that.
And we've done that before on deadlines.
And so I did that.
I did a quick fix on it.
And you just wipe off the water and stick it on the enlarger and crank it out.
You don't get as good a quality as you do otherwise.
But they were pushing me, and they kept coming in the dark room and saying, when can we have it?
When can we have it?
So there was a lot of excitement because we were on the East Coast deadline at that time.
And so they wanted to get this out and get it transmitted.
So that was another strong remembrance that I have about this was the urgency.
Now some people have said that by that time, within the two hours, that General Ramey had already made his announcement.
Well, that obviously had not happened because there would not then have been the urgency to get those pictures out.
Doctor, if you had had the opportunity to ask a question of Colonel Haynes, who seemed at a loss to explain the six-year difference between 1947 and all you are now telling us about, and the beginning of the experiments in 1953 that he tried to say accounted for everything, what would you have asked the Colonel?
Well, Doctor, I've sort of speculated, only half in humor, that some cigar-chompan general probably had the colonel in front of him and said, son, you're going to have to go out there and do your patriotic duty.
But, General, what do I say about six years?
And, well, son, go out there and tell them about time compression.
But it's sad because it's like a lot of other things that the government seems to get into, that nobody ever wants to come and just lay it out on the table and say, here, guys, here's exactly what happened.
And I've asked that question.
I asked General Exxon, who was a right pad commander one time, as you know, and who flew over the wreckage when it was on the ground at Roswell as a young captain.
And I asked him, why wouldn't President Clinton today just call in and say, here, fellas, here it is.
Here's the real story.
And the answer was, there's nothing politically advantageous about clearing it up.
Because there was so many, because Roswell was only the tip of the iceberg.
The problem is it would be ludicrous to just keep Roswell hidden if that's all that ever happened.
But he was only the beginning of a very long process of which the government ultimately painted themselves in the corner 50 years ago, ultimately, and the paint is still wet.
They don't know how to get out of it.
It's too big.
The labyrinth is too heavy.
There's too much critical information at stake.
And they don't know how the public will ultimately react to all the things.
It isn't a simple matter of, oh, everybody will panic.
All right, well, we've got to imagine, Jamie and Doctor, that after all these years, if it was, as originally stated, a weather balloon, or even as later stated, a balloon train, that by now, all of it could simply be declassified, and they could tell the story straight out.
And yet they still are not doing that, or not even close, or if anything, maybe moving further away from the truth.
Because it went into a heavy control situation, and all those files that the GAO couldn't find when Representative Schiff's investigation was instigated.
Well, if the people out there believe that all of the files would disappear, or conversely, that there never were any files, and I think we know better than that, with an incident of this magnitude, there would be many, many reports generated.
There's no question about that.
And if you don't believe that, I've got a bridge for you because I, too, was in the more modern Air Force.
And everything was done agonizingly, repetitively, carefully, and everything is documented, things you wouldn't even imagine need to be documented or documented.
Well, I spoke to General Exxon about the whole situation, and I asked him point blank something other researchers hadn't done, again, and that was other researchers had said that Exxon didn't mention MJ-12, so therefore MJ-12 didn't exist.
But they didn't ask the question.
The question begged to be asked.
So I asked General Exxon, I said, General Exxon, have you ever heard of MJ-12?
And he was silent for a moment, and he said, yes, I have.
That's the group that controls all the UFO material.
And I said, well, now you had met Bon Johnson, sir.
And I said, no, have you seen those pictures before, the ones that were in the newspaper?
And he said, yes, I have.
And then he said to me, which kind of shocked me, he said, have you seen the other pictures of the closer shots of the stuff on the ground at Roswell?
And I hesitate, I said, what pictures?
No, sir, I haven't.
Where are these pictures?
He said, well, I saw them at the War College in the 50s.
You know, if the Associate Press is correct, and I have every reason to believe they were, if the flight left Roswell at 10 a.m. and it was roughly an hour and a half flight, an hour time difference to Fort Worth, that means that Marcel had been there for some period of time, but obviously they would have had him off debriefing him.
And so the general and or the intelligence officer, whoever would have been debriefing him so they could report to General Vandenberg.
They could have had other parts of the material that the general was looking at in another room and this innocuous bunch of stuff for the press so that they could continue with their thing.
We're the top dog.
It's not anything to be fearful of, and we're in control.
Jamie Chanderaya and Jaybon Johnson, who actually was in General Ramey's office talking with the general and taking photographs of the material that had just been flown in from Roswell.
Again, in 1947, not 1953.
The story will continue.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
unidentified
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
He is a 30-year investigative journalist who's been looking into what occurred at Roswell.
We have been weaving the story for you and will continue to do so.
I have a second guest.
He is J. Bond Johnson, Dr. Johnson, who, shortly after that fatal explosion, July 2nd, over Roswell, working for the Star-Telegraph in Texas, went and was assigned to go take pictures of the debris that had just been flown in from Roswell.
And in fact, did that, Went to General Ramey's office, not a hangar, where all of this material was laid out on the floor.
He took those photographs and then took them back to the Star Telegraph and had them developed.
And there was a machine waiting there, which then, of course, transmitted them immediately nationwide, I presume to all the newspapers for the story that was then front page news just about every day.
Air Force recovers crashed flying disc.
We'll pick the story up with somebody who was really there in a moment.
That's back in 1947, by the way, not 1953.
Now, let me talk to you for a second about the World Wide Web.
On my website, we have a very unique thing going called the Live Web Cam.
And you can actually see me sitting here doing the program.
However, at the moment, earlier today, by request, several people requested that I do it.
My son was here, so I opened up the live cam this afternoon and took a photo, you know, a quick snap with my son in the picture, and that's what's up there right now.
And I'll leave it up there for about another half hour or hour, and then I will bring back the live cam.
That's just one little piece of technology that is now on the web.
The web is a growing, doubling every few months resource of material that is so large, so comprehensive, that it puts any, remember the old dictionary salesman, come to your house, Chris, sell you a set of dictionaries.
This puts all of that to shame.
Three, the Sea Crane Company, back now, to Jamie Chanderia and to Dr. Bon Johnson.
Here's somebody who's written a very nasty little facts, and it reads as follows, and I'm going to read it to you just so you can respond to it.
Art, how's this for a conspiracy?
People in their 70s realize in their aged wisdom that Social Security will not support them for much longer.
So his words, old Codgers, start confessing secrets of Roswell, knowing full well the youngsters will glom on to such hoaxes and will offer them spots on TV, radio talk shows, probably with lucrative results.
Charlie in Houston.
Now, let me say you're not getting one penny for appearing on my program.
I've waited for people to call me, and I might say that over the years now, a number of reporters and writers, researchers have contacted me, spent a lot of time asking me detailed questions.
But Jamie Ashandaray is the most thorough and meticulous researcher that has contacted me.
So you've got the best one of the ones that I know about on your program tonight.
Aren't you curious why some of these people who know exactly what you did and when you did it were not at that press conference querying Colonel Haynes?
Well, you know, there's another little factor that sneaks its ugly head in here, and that is that some of the people that talk to Bond have determined to their own guesswork and ambiguous nature of questions that Bond actually wrote the cover story that appeared in the paper with the pictures.
Now, there are certain researchers that say that Bond indeed, that General Raimi said to Bond, oh, this is balsa wood and aluminum foil and burned rubber.
Now, Bond never said that, and Raimi never said that to him.
That was part of the cover story that came out on the 9th.
Yes, and just prior to the end of the hour, Dr. Johnson said that he believed that General Raimi would have resigned rather than have his picture taken with a weather balloon.
Well, I can remember being at the various bases where I was stationed during World War II, and it was a common thing.
We didn't have the radar and satellites and all that, of course, in those days.
And I can remember, like, early in the morning seeing a balloon go up.
And at one time I was stationed, my barracks were right across the street from the weather Observatory and they would have several balloons go up in the day.
And as they go up, they get bigger, you know, as the air gets thinner and so forth.
So that was a common thing.
And certainly every pilot, as General Ramey was, would know what a weather balloon was and the attachments that they hooked to it.
Well, that's exactly what General DuBose, who was in 1947, the colonel and chief of staff, and I asked him very specifically, I said, you say this is not a weather balloon, but do you have any experience with weather balloons?
He says, absolutely.
We used them during the war.
We used them for vectoring, for targets, for everything.
I said, did General Ramey?
Did he have experience?
He says, of course, we flew missions together.
We all had extensive experience with weather balloons.
I think that, you know, when, as I, my recollection or my reconstruction of this whole thing is that when Marcel went out and as a major, gathered some of this up, he goes into his boss, the colonel, the commander at Roswell, and he doesn't know what to do with it, so he calls up his boss, General Ramey, and gives him a report.
And General Raimi says, well, bring it down here and let me look at it.
That would be the logical kind of thing.
And then General Raimi gets on the horn and calls Washington and says, what am I supposed to do with this?
No, I didn't, because I did not have the information that was contained in the story at that time.
It had not been released.
When I went home, I was working overtime the time I got through with the picture, so I ducked out pretty quickly.
And I had a stack of phone calls when I got back to the office from all of the photo services, and everybody, of course, wants an exclusive photograph.
Well, that was pretty frustrating because I didn't have any exclusive photographs.
I didn't take that many, and there was nothing novel about the various parts of it.
So I got, as soon as I took care of those calls, then I went home, and the announcement had not been made, and I didn't even know about it until I picked up the paper the next morning.
And when it was transmitted on the wire photo, we now have copies, and I have been sent copies of these pictures with the cutline still attached, and I get credit line on all of them as the photographer.
Word for word, that same article shows up in other newspapers with no attribution to the Fort Worth Star Telegram, no attribution to Bon Johnson, none at all.
Now, there was a category that happened like that, and that was a military release.
Well, because that exact story, word for word, paragraphs in some cases are in articles all over the country.
Now, as we all know today, when you watch television, you're watching CBS, and they're doing a sports show, and they need to show a baseball game that NBC covered, it says, courtesy of NBC.
Now, that is a courtesy, but it's a, by God, you better do it because we'll sue you if you use our material.
But the same thing in the press business.
If you use an article that's generated by the Fort Worth Star Telegram, then you have to give attribution to the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
That's their life and blood.
That gives them the recognition and stature within the media.
No, that would be, I assumed, you see, I was the military reporter for the paper, and I got handouts from all the different branches and bases, and we never gave a byline to a military writer, to a military press release.
No, there were other stories where you don't get bylines.
But front-page stories like that, had I written a story, it certainly would have merited a byline and would have gotten it as I did for the photocredit.
But there was none on that.
Now, also in the Roswell paper, I've seen the reproductions of that, and there's no byline on the stories out of the Roswell paper about this.
So again, that would indicate that those were military handouts.
Well, it seems to me this is an evidence trail that we could follow if there are still alive some of the editors who would have received these handouts or this news that they were apparently told to print.
As the story started to trickle out, the general says it's some kind of a weather gadget.
Well, they finally decided to call it a certain type of a weather balloon.
And then what they did was, remember out of that office, there were seven pictures taken.
In the sequence of pictures, the last picture is of a warrant officer, Irving Newton.
So in the sequence of pictures, you have two of General Ramey.
It would have been as speed graphic as Bond said he had.
So he puts the plate in, he shoots a picture of the general, pulls the plate out, turns it over, takes it back in, shoots another picture.
That's two of the general.
Then, as a courtesy, he has the chief of staff, Colonel DeBose, join him in the picture, widens the shot a little bit, shoots one of the two of them, pulls the plate out, turns it over, shoots another one.
So same basic setup.
Then, there are two pictures of Jesse Marcel, Major Marcel, in exact same position.
So we assume then that was shot the same way.
Then there's one picture that we've been able to find of Irving Newton.
Now that gives us a new player in the deck here.
We know what General Ramey said to his boss.
We know what he said to Bon Johnson.
He said, we don't know what this is.
It's a foil-like material, but we don't know what it is.
We know what General DeBose said.
He was then Colonel Chief of Staff.
He said, this was not, categorically not, a weather balloon.
We didn't put one in that room.
One did not come in from Roswell.
We know what Jesse Marcel said.
This is not a weather balloon.
This is the real stuff.
We know what Bon Johnson said.
But Irving Newton becomes the odd duck in the crowd.
He's ordered off of his post and to come in and tell the press what a weather balloon was like.
Does it matter less and less or more and more after 50 years?
Jamie Chandere is my guest.
He's an investigative journalist, has been so for about 30 years, working very hard on Roswell.
Also with me, Dr. J. Bond Johnson, who was the photographer then for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and took pictures of the materials that had been flown from Roswell to Fort Worth.
Doctor, is there any way in the world that you could have written that story and it somehow has time compressed or, you know, somehow slipped out of your mind?
And I certainly wouldn't have rushed back to the office.
I wouldn't have been met by this hubbub of folks from Dallas who'd come over and were frantic to get the pictures wet so they could send them out because it would have made no sense.
It was a dead story then as soon as they put the cover story out.
General Clements McMullen, who was then acting director of the Strategic Air Command from Washington by telephone, ordered General DuBose, who was then Colonel DuBose's chief of staff, to General Raimi, who was the 8th Army Air Force's commanding general.
He told him, put out the cover story, shut the door of that office now.
He said, and then General McMullen said, you pick up every piece of stuff in that office, on the floor in Ramey's office.
You put it in a sealed container.
You lock it to the wrist of a courier you trust.
He said, and I chose Colonel Al Clark, who is the base commander at Carswell there in Fort Worth.
He says, and I escorted him to a B-26, and I sent him to Washington with this material to meet General McMullen.
Now, in the Fort Worth, not the Fort Worth, in the Dallas Morning Newspaper, the intelligence officer from Carswell, there in Fort Worth, was telling a reporter at around 5.30, according to the article, when asked, where is this stuff now?
He said, well, it's locked in the general's office, and it's just a weather balloon.
Well, that's patently absurd.
Why would you lock the door to the office if it's a weather balloon?
The point is, they locked that office because they removed all that material, which confirms what General DeBose was saying, and sent it off to Washington.
And only that, or something of that magnitude, could account for that kind of curtain coming down, not the fact that somebody had, well, already I'm beginning to feed the Air Force story because the balloon trains were not around in 1947.
See, what happens when you have something like a real signpost in the case, and again, this segment going to Fort Worth is the only finite timeline, and you can trace it forward and you can take it backward.
When you take it backward, what you do is you realize there couldn't have been bodies found on the 4th of July, as some researchers are saying that when they change the dates and switch all these different things around.
Those things become patently absurd because that would require that Jesse Marcel didn't know that the entire base was called on command to go out and retrieve craft and bodies, and he was still playing around with a rancher that had debris.
None of this press conference would have ever happened.
It wasn't really even a press conference.
It was a press announcement, and they were hoping press to Come in and take pictures.
They did that deliberately to show that they, the military and the government, could satisfy the public's need for protection, that they were in control.
It was a psychological ploy because they found this anomalous debris, this innocuous stuff.
Nobody knew what it was, but there was nothing dangerous.
There's no big power supplies, there's no weapons, there's no bodies, nothing to be worried about because this was apparently blowout from an explosion above the ground.
As described by people who saw the crash site with a huge gouge in the ground, the thing apparently blew out above the ground, blew this innocuous debris out of the craft.
It hit the ground and gouged and came down a few miles away.
All right, again, aside from the debris photographed in General Ramey's office by Dr. Johnson, how much more debris, quantity-wise, had been collected?
According to Major Marcel, the belly of a B-29 was quite full of debris.
They had taken apparently everything that was brought back at the point, everything that they had in the two vehicles, certainly, was that morning sent over.
So he had the, you know, he had I-beams, he had everything.
So everything he could stuff in a .42 Buick and everything that could be put in a Jeep carry all was in the belly of that plane waiting for further transfer.
And there's another point here.
One of the things that the military is very good at is you never go to higher command unless you're really sure that you're not stepping out of line.
And in this case, you've got a major who has to go back to his own colonel, the base commander, and show him what he's got.
That colonel then goes to his commanding general, who then goes to his commanding general in Washington, and everybody gets in the picture.
And in addition to General Ramey, the 8th Army Air Force's commanding general, telling General Vandenberg he didn't know what it was, in that same article it indicates they've also notified the FBI in Dallas.
And the FBI is going to come in and look at this material if it can get there before the plane leaves for Wright Field.
Now, I'm sorry, but you just don't go to that effort.
Is there any way in Dr. Johnson's photographs that the material depicted can be positively identified as what the Air Force is calling a balloon train?
If I laid down on the floor and you, Ordbell, stood over me, and your wife stood there, and Bon Johnson stood there, and somebody took a picture, you could argue with experts till hell froze over.
From morticians saying, well, the guy's dead.
From actor saying, no, no, no, he's acting.
When somebody else says, no, no, no, he's fainted.
And, doctor, would you, personally, have been familiar with a balloon or a portion of something that would have been like a balloon, a balloon train, whatever they want to call it?
Well, Bob, if as all descriptions of these radar reflectors, either simple foil or paperback foil, would you have been familiar with foil and or paperback foil?
When you go back and read the articles that were published the next day, when they described the wreckage, they describe it as covering about a half mile by a mile.
Well, you know, Charles Moore, who was involved in the mobile balloon projects, which were supposedly secret at that time, has made the statement that they think this was, and they have the number of the specific flights, that they had launched that balloon on or about July 2nd.
But the problem is this.
He claims, and all records show, there was an electrical storm going on.
He claims that the balloons were already inflated, but the storm came up, so it destroyed their ability to run the tests that they were running.
Well, I guess I'm sad again that the number that of the researchers, I have to agree partly with the gentleman that sent you the facts a little while ago, in that some people have exploited these things.
This is a very, very important point, because then obviously the origin of this story is a complete mystery.
And as you have both pointed out, it was very unlikely that a story would be written without a byline that appeared on the front page of why it would have been a very proud moment for any reporter that had written a story that would be then rewritten all around the country.
See, if it was even generated by anybody at Fort Worth Star Telegram, the Fort Worth Star Telegram would have taken credit and then insisted on attribution in other printings.
And there's no attribution to that exact same article and chunks of that article all over the country.
You're saying balloon trains were in use in 1947, but Colonel Haynes seemed to suggest that the dummies, the other more exotic things that were shown being launched in film in this news conference did not even begin until 1953, or am I getting that wrong?
But when Colonel Weaver was quoted as the fact that this story was coming out, he claimed that those dummies were three to four feet in height, and that's why the mistake was made, which is, again, patently absurd.
Again, Jamie has written the most accurate stories because he spent the most time and has detailed it out and has written the most accurate interviews of me, of any of the other reporters.
Jamie, when we get back, I would like, if I could, to open the phone lines and allow the audience to begin asking questions.
Because we are going to begin to begin to, frankly, move off into areas that now go way past what you have just heard and begin to talk about the actual crash of the craft.
And that's where we're going to pick all this up when we continue with Jamie Chandray.
And I hope I'm beginning to get that correct.
unidentified
Thank you.
Thank you.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
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In other words, he had no reason to be there or anything else.
But he was on the late shift, meaning that the other personnel had gone home.
He was alone at the weather station when he got a call from General Ramey himself ordering him to abandon his post, come over to the office, and tell the people there how weather balloons function.
Now, the problem with this man, unfortunately, and I'm sure he's really a very nice man, but he is, like the majority of people, he's not a good witness.
And what do I mean by that?
His story changes.
His story changes as he hears things.
It kind of fits into the picture, and his story expands, and it changes.
Only one aspect of his story remained the same.
He was originally interviewed in 1979, I believe it was, by Bill Moore in preparation for the book, The Roswell Incident.
At that time, he told a story that the general ordered him to leave his post.
He said, but general, I'm here alone.
He says, get your ass over here now.
It was a direct quote, and that's always been the same quote.
And I'm sure he would never forget the general ordering him off his post.
Today he's saying it was Mylar in that room, that Jesse Marcel was in the room, and they were in a big argument as to whether this was a flying saucer or not, and that Marcel was showing him stuff with writing on it, and that Marcel was saying this was alien stuff, and the little green men had written it, and he was saying, no, no, no, it's Japanese writing, and so forth.
I said, no, excuse me, maybe I'm confused here.
You're saying that you and Jesse Marcel were arguing in that room about flying saucers?
You just don't go out and say, whoa, look what I've got.
We researched that for two and a half years.
That's how cautious we were.
We followed every nitty detail.
We followed phone records, dates, everything.
Everything you could imagine.
And then we decided we needed more help.
And we had given some of the stuff to Stan Friedman to do a parallel examination going on at the same time.
But all the while we're trying to stay very tight to the chest because we didn't want to begin circulating our own information out there and feeding ourselves our own information.
We needed to find out: did anybody else have this kind of stuff?
If you, you know, you tell two friends and then they tell two friends, and pretty soon tell me, oh, gee, I heard this and I heard it from this guy, and I think it confirms, but it doesn't confirm anything.
You're just feeding yourself your own stuff.
So there are very legitimate reasons for not telling what you've got while you try to examine this.
Now, one of the things I was looking for, and we were developing even more and more sources, this one initial source that we had in the beginning inside the intelligence community, they began to grow.
And more and more individuals were feeding us information, but they seemed to get the same information loop.
All of them, high-level, all of them we could access in their agencies.
We knew who they were.
These were not anonymous people to us.
Our agreements with them were we keep their names confidential, wherein the whole concept of the aviary grew.
So we gave them bird code names.
And the reason for that is we're talking on the telephone.
We're talking about a certain person.
We didn't want to use that name even on the phone.
I've seen stuff on the internet about it and everything else.
Nobody knows who the sources are.
There's only one or two people within that aviary who have made their identities public, and we're in agreement that that's okay to do that.
So while that's going on, I was always looking for some parallel way outside of testimony of key individuals who have every reason to follow the trail that they're pointing you to.
But I was looking for some way to validate these documents outside of that kind of testimony.
Outside of this constant strain of trying to dissect where is the disinformation, what can we validate, and that slogging process that you have to go through.
Unfortunately, you read some of these books, and they start off with a paragraph that says that, well, we think he was talking about this, and then two paragraphs later, the we think turns into a hard fact.
Jamie, I've got to stop you, and I've got to tell you, I've got personal experience in this area with regard to the entire Hillbop incident, and I watched the national press at work, and it's sickening.
In other words, the national press today decides, and I can't tell you what the genesis of that decision is, but they decide they will tell a story in a certain way.
And God help anybody who gets in the way or tries to get in the way of their telling of that story in that way with facts.
If I approach a situation, what has to happen for me, for it to work for me, is if it's an individual I'm talking with, I have to, first of all, qualify the individual.
And it's not exactly sufficient to say, well, he was there at the right place at the right time.
You have to try to get a few more things factored in.
And sometimes it's very difficult to do.
But secondly, then you have to qualify the statements being made.
You know, the problem was like with General DeBose, people went and talked to him.
And like he said to me subsequently, he said, I said, General, those were rambling recollections when you were talking to these other people, weren't they?
He says, well, yes, that's exactly what they were.
I didn't have anything to focus.
I had never really gone through the whole story.
I said, had you ever told this whole story?
He says, no, I'd never told this whole story before until you thought it was the pictures.
That jogged my memory.
Well, you know, if a person goes on in a court case or whatever, they're allowed to have diaries and everything so they can focus their attention and memories to exactly the timeframes and what was going on.
So if those bodies then are being discovered by this second team, and then it's being detailed, that, you know, the first stuff that there was no, you know, no power supply, no, nothing's being discovered.
But then the main part of the crafts and bodies are being discovered two and a half or so miles away.
Well, Adventure wouldn't have seen it because that terrain out there.
You can't see two and a half miles, you know, in flat land.
So he wouldn't have seen the crafts.
He wouldn't have seen any of those things, nor had any reason to go in that direction to look for it.
So, what happens all of a sudden is when you take the signposts in the case.
Now, signposts are extremely important if you can find them because it gives you something to anchor where you're going from.
So, you had to get to that signpost and you can back up from it.
Now, logic tells you that if at 6 o'clock in Fort Worth time, the lid, the shroud of secrecy descended for all time on the subject of UFOs, bodies, craft, and everything else, it had to be a momentous moment.
Because I've been able to track it to the Washington Post, the New York Times, and all the rest of them.
They say that even at a certain hour, a press blackout descended on Roswell.
Well, now, all of the attention had already been diverted away from Roswell.
But why would they have to put a press blackout on it at that point?
because that's where all the activities seem to be emanating from In other words, we should assume, I would assume, that after the good doctor took his photographs and the rest of the materials got on an airplane by courier and went to Wright Pat, is that correct?
Well, that's where the secrecy becomes monumental.
That's where the roadblocks all start, is at that point.
Now, there are a lot of different people that surface at different points and say, oh, well, we saw bodies, we saw things, we saw them, but it was on the 4th of July, and it was over here, and it was over there.
But the trick was, with General McMullen pulling all of the strings out of Washington, he was bypassing all kinds of things.
A very curious thing happened.
The photographic unit at Roswell, where it all had top secret clearances.
Everybody in the whole photographic unit had top secret clearances.
They were not employed in this job, and they were stunned.
We found a photographic unit member, and he had just come back from leave from over the weekend, and there was all this buzz going on.
In fact, it was so raucous in the photographic unit because, you know, when you belong to an elite unit, you have a top secret clearance, and everything that goes on, you guys get to photograph it.
And all of a sudden, they're being excluded, and they couldn't deal with it.
And at one point, the guy said that the commander of his unit called them all together and said, look, guys, we have a job to do.
Settle down.
Now, Bill Moore also managed to track down another individual who is part of that unit and got a very interesting story from him.
He could probably be found, but he was so frightened.
He was unbelievably frightened.
But there's some additional details in there, which I don't want to give out on the air at this point, because they go into part of a manuscript that's going together and we have some things we're working on in that regard.
But those details that I'm leaving out at this moment track back precisely to the aspects of the aerial reconnaissance and everything else.
And it gets right down to the nitty details that you have to find to validate the process.
Jamie, I've got a notice of a press conference I would like to read you here, very short.
A press conference scheduled for 9 o'clock a.m., July 4th, 1997, at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute campus in Roswell, New Mexico is going to present the results of scientific tests performed on crash debris found near Roswell, New Mexico 50 years ago that once and for all will prove the downed vehicle was not of Earth origin.
A research scientist from a major university involved in testing is going to be on hand to discuss the methodology and the results of the isotopic radio ratio tests, rather, I'll get that right one day, of the Roswell debris.
Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities, big ones, and national labs will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is, this is important, manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.
Jamie, if in fact they have this, they have the scientific reports, and you've got actual manufactured material, in other words, something functional that is made of materials, not of Earth, that they can, with a chain of evidence, link to Roswell, that sounds like the smoking gun, doesn't it?
Um, I, I hope it all pans out exactly as, as, as it's being, And then, of course, on the fourth, Friday, we are going to know for sure, I guess, aren't we?
Well, there have been a whole series of stories about different crash site areas.
There seems to be clear evidence that there was more than one crash site.
However, there's still a considerable amount of consternation as to where all of these different crash sites were.
It seems clear, because I know that CIC officer Rickett, who went out there with Sheridan Cabot the next day on July 8th, he was subsequently assigned to get Dr. LaPaz from the University of New Mexico to go out there, and Dr. LaPaz determined a trajectory that's where this craft had come down.
So what they did is they followed that trajectory into the back country and found Indians, found people in line shacks and everything else, and tried to get their stories as to what they might have or might not have seen.
And what they did see apparently were three lights in the sky.
And they saw one go down, then they saw another one go down, and then they don't know what happened to the other one, whether it went off into the horizon or it also went down.
Which is very interesting.
So, I mean, it does lend credence to more than one crash site.
And this is fairly, of course, off into the area of speculation.
But if it was an alien craft, is it reasonable to conclude, since the atomic bomb was at Roswell, that an alien craft would certainly be interested in our first developmental area where the atomic materials were being kept?
But my one question now is that Mr. McGahey said that the debris that was found in Roswell, he said, first of all, there were only six or seven witnesses to what was there after the crash, and that everyone else heard about it secondhand.
And he said that whatever it was was supposed to have been 24 feet across.
However, there was only five pounds of debris that was recovered, and that debris consisted of rubber, balsa wood, tinfoil, and scotch tape with flowers on it.
Yeah, I think somebody would be well served to call Mr. Bohannon and suggest that, as I just did, he have somebody on who was really there and really handled the material and took photographs of the material.
unidentified
I can't call him because, you know, we get him after he's taking calls, but I was just incensed and I just couldn't wait to get on the phone and tell you.
Jim Bohannon and others that I will not mention seem to have an agenda and an anger with me that is based in more than just a disagreement with regard to the issues that we are discussing this night.
So I'll just drop it right there.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
I've always been kind of skeptical about these UFO reports.
And there's a lot of things going on now that people are saying they're being abducted.
And we've got alien abduction support groups and all that type of things.
I know, I'm skeptical of a lot of that, too, but it was rather interesting when I heard first, and as long as you're allowing people to mention other programs, there was a, I believe it was a TNT special, October 1st, 1994, which was hosted by Larry King called, I believe it was called Live from Roswell.
And he had on there, amongst other people, he had Barry Goldwater on there.
And Barry Goldwater, apparently, and, you know, he's not exactly your claiming New Age or mystic esoteric type of person.
He said that he had talked during, apparently, I think it was in the 1964 campaign, he had talked to Curtis LeMay because even as far back as 1964, there were rumblings about things that went on in Roswell and that type of thing.
And he supposedly asked Curtis LeMay, and Curtis LeMay, who normally he claimed was not very excitable, is very businesslike and professional, got very upset and said something to the effect.
Well, there's something very interesting happens with Wright-Patterson.
It turns out that Wright-Patterson had a major storage facility underground, refrigerated storage facility underground, when its purpose was for nitrate film.
It's all that the Signal Corps and others, you know, when they shot their film, it was all nitrate in the early days.
Nitrate's extremely flammable.
So even in Hollywood, all the storage facilities for nitrate film were refrigerated.
Now, when the safety film came in, and this is right about turning into the 50s, right into that range, they got rid of all of the nitrate film.
They converted to safety film and got rid of these areas.
Well, that opened up an entire underground facility, refrigerated facility at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
And the story is that was all turned into a SCIF facility, a specially compartmented information facility, or a SCIF, F-C-I-F, which means, you know, because specially compartmented information is high security classification.
You have to have that special compartment classification to have any access.
And even if you were top secret, you still had to have a special compartment to be able to access that.
And so that's where the rumors of Hangar 18, the Blue Room, and all those things at Wright Field apparently have generated from, was this underground facility.
What they did was then they shipped out all of the film people to other locations, got them out of there.
Most other people there, as things changed over in time, had no awareness whatsoever that there was such a facility underground there.
So that tended to be where the genesis of all those things are, and it was highly classified.
General Exxon made references to bodies being stored at Wright-Patterson.
He was there in 1947.
I think he was a major at that time, during the 60s, and roughly about the time that we're talking about here, in 1964, General Exxon was the commander of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
But he, Even as commander, he did not have access to the information.
And he had the stories, and he had to assign retrieval groups and other things to go out.
It doesn't mean that he was read into the specific program, but he had knowledge, so he would have been in a periphery position that would have had to rebuff anybody that tried to get close.
You know, I am very excited to hear someone of your nature come on and recite a lot of documents, drop a lot of names.
The thing that upsets me, and it isn't what you're doing, is the fact that the people that you're referring to aren't as brave as you.
I know art works as hard as anybody, including a coach of a winning NFL team just to get to playoffs.
And that's not an easy feat.
Art probably times tends that.
And what I appreciate is the fact that we can get it this far.
What I question, though, is with all the accuracy, or should I say alleged accuracy of a lot of people that have worked in the NASA and the research of aerospace, why is it that the documents are always available, whether they're accurate or not?
But it just seems so difficult to get them to just come on the air, whether it be your show, ARC, or anybody else's show, or just plain old network television.
And I think that that draws a lot of funds, including advertising, which makes it lucrative for these people, which that is why they're in the business, television networks and radio networks.
And I just think it's a shame that people like Mr. Chandere and others, including Richard Hoagland and other folks of that nature, even through such a fantastic show and a venue that you've used, we just somehow, and I think it sheds a lot of curiosity on the validity of what they're trying to say.
Well, the answer to your question is that a lot of people of the caliber that you're talking about are scared to come forward.
And they have good reason to be scared to come forward.
Jamie gave us a very good example of that a few moments ago.
A man who developed film, wouldn't even talk about what was on it, said it related to that thing at Roswell, and had a gun put to his head, and to this day, will not talk.
Are there a lot of people, do you think, Jamie, in that category?
The way things are, especially compartmented, that whole phrase has a very strong bearing on this whole issue.
The aspect of compartmentalization is the brainchild of Dr. Vannevar Bush in particular, who was also named as one of the MJ-12 members.
The idea of compartmentalization is that if you have a specialty that they need, you're brought into a compartment.
Now, you're given a certain amount of information because they want you, if you're a physicist, let's say, to work on this.
You don't know where it comes from.
You don't know where it goes to.
You don't know how any of it connects.
But let's say for a moment that this individual decides that, holy cow, what I'm dealing with is extraterrestrially derived information.
I think the public has a right to know this.
And even though, you know, I've signed a security oath to get where I'm at, I've got to give this to a journalist.
I've got to give this to somebody.
This story's got to get out.
So let's say he gives me or anybody this piece of paper, this document that he's got.
Now, if you're legitimate as a journalist, then you have to go back through the government somehow to validate the information.
You can't simply take somebody's document and say, whoa, look, this is real.
So the process of going back through, the document has dye tracers in it because of the compartmentalization and the security nature of the information.
The dye tracers will first trigger security people.
They don't have to know the content.
All they know is there's a marker that just saw the light of day of a document that is not supposed to see the light of day.
So the first questions are, who had it?
Why does he have it?
The proper division is notified.
They will, within a matter of hours, identify what compartment it came out of.
Because even if there were five different compartments that had to coordinate, they would know because of the dye tracer, the marker of some kind.
It would come all the way down to a misspelled word.
If there were five physicists that had to work on the same project, each one would have the same, probably security dye tracer on it, and they would have a different marker.
They would identify which compartment it came from.
So they would be able to identify the specific individual within a matter of hours.
If I was the one that received it, they would never talk to me.
They would come around, they would knock on that individual's door, and at that point, that man is in deep doo-doo.
In other words, no matter how you protect your source, the mere imparting of the information is going to tell those who are watching over all this exactly where it came from.
I stumbled over something the other day that I thought I might want to share with Jamie.
It seems like all the government official efforts in covering up information about UFO's important cases in the early years seem to go back to General Hoyt S. Vandenberg.
And I remember he kicked back the 1948 top secret estimate of the situation report that concluded they were extraterrestrial.
I just discovered this guy was the director of the Central Intelligence Agency group in 1946 to 1947.
So I'm thinking that maybe that accounts for much of the reason that the UFO subject back then was covered up.
Craig Roberts, of course, was on some time ago, and we will get him on again.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi, this is EK in San Diego, and I'm also on your website right now, and they're all discussing it.
But something I've been dying to ask is why has none of the major media asked Gordon Cooper about his open statements about ET crashes and landings that he's witnessed?
Because it's into that kook fringe, and nobody wants to be categorized in that kook fringe.
The story I was telling in the last hour, so if this journalist gets this document from this individual, and then he's given the second one because the powers that be on the inside have determined who leaked the document.
So he is given, he hands some bogus information now.
Then what they do is an end run around the journalist and force his hand by tipping off that somebody else has the same information.
He better go public quickly with it, or he's going to lose his edge.
He does it, and boom, they discredit him on the basis that the bogus material discredits everything.
It doesn't make any difference.
He had good material in there.
The bogus material is the rotten apple that spoils the barrel.
Now, once a few broadcasters, a few magazine journalists, a few print reporters see this happening to 25-year career people, they say, I'm not messing with that stuff.
All right, it certainly does, and it's absolutely true.
And it partially accounts for a lot of the attacks on me, but I've learned to have a thick skin dealing with this kind of material a long time ago, and so I just sort of let it roll off.
It comes all the time, and the more listeners I get, the more people that are interested, the larger the network grows, the stronger the attacks become, and I expect that, and I just sort of deal with it.
But somewhere there, there is a truth, and I am determined to get to it.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
First of all, if you accept the premise for a moment that a control group, a very high-level control group, controls information within this subject area, that control group would have to have one very clear thing going for them.
The ability to clearly categorize and hide that information.
I've heard stories where these skiff rooms, especially compartmented information facilities, to go into one, there would be a guard booth inside the room.
If you had to look at pictures, you would have to look through a funnel type device, which you could not even photograph through, to see one picture at a time.
So you don't even get to handle the pictures.
So for somebody, anybody, to say that in any kind of a process of cataloging tapes or in any fashion would have access to information regarding this kind of thing doesn't, I can't buy it.
Well, first of all, you know, I started in the business back in around 1964, and I was shooting film on cameras that were those three minutes, the 100-foot rolls and so forth.
And the first thing I would say is this about the thing.
If you just take it from a production standpoint, from a photographer standpoint, it would never have been handled that way.
First thing would happen, you would set up two tripods at different angles on either side of the body.
You would have put on very long magazines and you would stagger the runs.
So you would have a continuous record all the way through.
You'd also have a still photographer shooting at all times.
The other problem, of course, is the fact that the autopsy lasts too short of an amount of time.
If something as monumental as a brand new body that we've never seen on this planet before is going to have such a team doing this thing and cataloging every minuscule thing all the way through.
In fact, there seems to be some testimony that that very film surfaced in 1973 and that Andrei Poharich, in fact, was given access to that material.
In fact, other people that had known Poharich had reported to me things that Poharich had seen and Phil Mantle had sent me some stills.
This is all before the film was being shown around and everything else.
And some of the things that the people who had been close to Poharic were saying showed up in those still photographs, such as the wrist being sliced off.
That's not something you do in an autopsy.
You don't slice a wrist off.
The hand is detached from the arm and stuck back in place.
So there's a whole series of things that are very problematical there.
The film seems to have derived from, actually from Brazil, as some of the rumors you might have heard, the different stories.
Perharić had been going down with NASA scientists to see that Arrigo, the surgeon with the rusty knife, and the miraculous things that he was doing.
In fact, he performed an operation on Perharić.
Now, Perharic was sort of the godfather of parapsychology in this country.
He was a physician and a scientist, and he was into a whole series of things.
If memory serves me right, he was Nami Eisenhower's doctor also.
So it was somebody that was associated with Arago in Brazil that brought the film to his attention.
And they thought that if they could get Perharsch behind this film, they're saying it's the Brazilian military that shot this autopsy.
But ultimately, and Perharsch was interested in the beginning, but the more he saw of it, he said, there's no way.
Even the Brazilian military of that vintage wouldn't be that sloppy.
Let me bring you up to date and ask you about something more recent.
There were some absolutely incredible lights or a craft, depending on the witness you talk to or the film you see, that appeared over the city of Phoenix.
I know well that people who have asked questions about it, like Francis Barwood, Council Warner, have had her around the air, have been, are the victims now of smear campaigns, frankly.
Well, it seems like he was serious to begin with, but somebody pressured him along the way, saying that, you know, the very thing that's happening to the council woman's can happen to you if you don't turn this into a major joke.
And that's what appears on the surface.
I think there is something to the lights in the sky over Phoenix.
When I say something to it, what do I mean?
It's difficult to make an intelligent comment by the way.
Remember, it's during an electrical storm when this explosion happened.
And so the rancher didn't report this, didn't take anything in to the sheriff's office until the 6th.
When the team started out to the ranch on the 6th, it was so late when they got there, they stayed over until the 7th.
So it was late on the 7th when all this material got back to the base, and the base commander and others were absolutely committed to the concept that they didn't know what this stuff was.
Yeah, I've been listening to the show for quite some time, and what especially interests me is the, you know, the extraterrestrials and the aliens and everything else.
Is there, in the spirit of this question, any point where you look at our technological advancement where there has been a leap that otherwise cannot be justified?
Not being a scientist, that would be a difficult question for me to answer straight out.
I mean, certainly if you look at a simple situation of where we've come just since the personal computer has come under the scene.
I mean, our technology is growing so fast, so swiftly, that, you know, we can't even get a production line element out anymore before it's completely obsolete.
And, you know, I would think you would want to archive this program this morning.
If you do, it's a full five-hour program.
And you can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
That's 1-800-917-4278.
In addition, I have a series of interviews coming up later this morning, including one on KHOW with Peter Boyle, and that'll be about an hour after broadcast, followed then by another interview at WIZM in La Crosse, Wisconsin, and yet a third with KKOB and Albuquerque, all, of course, my affiliates.
But Tim Cannon, who runs the Airflow Chat Clubs, wanted me to specifically mention the Peter Boyle interview coming up on KHOW in Denver.
So obviously warming up toward what's coming this weekend.
My guest, Jamie Chanderet, will be back in a moment.
One other item, actually, a couple.
My book, The Quickening, is only got a few more days.
As a matter of fact, Sunday after Dreamland, and I guess I should tell you, Sunday, Lieutenant Colonel Corso is going to be my guest, who wrote the day after Roswell.
This coming Friday night, Saturday morning, Beyond Roswell by Michael Hessman and Philip Mantle, and Michael Hessman is going to be my guest Friday night, Saturday.
Tomorrow night, we are going to have a guest who is going to tell us at least a little bit about this incredible coming press release on the 4th with regard to materials that they claim to have an ironclad case about as being extraterrestrial.
So that's kind of the balance of what's going on, and it's going to be a very busy week, and I really haven't had much of a chance to say it, which is too bad because a lot of people are going to get angry at me.
My book, The Quickening, is going into general release in August or early September.
This Sunday will be your last opportunity to get a signed first edition copy of it.
However, if that is not material to you or important, and I can understand it well may not be, then you'll be able to get it in the bookstores in August or September, any bookstore, literally across America.
From now through Sunday, I will sign a copy of my book for you, and then that's it.
Finish, finny, done, regarding autographs.
So there you are.
If you want one, call 1-800-864-7991.
If you want a first edition autographed copy, 1-800-864-7991.
Well, we've got testimony from specific individuals, and apparently, if you're familiar with the Cash Landrum case out of Texas around 1980, 81, where the three generations of one family were on their way back from Bill, on some road outside of Dallas somewhere.
When a craft went above them, hovered over the car, and they got out, and they developed cancer and various other things from that.
They had a very tough time with that whole thing.
Well, got testimony, very clear testimony, that that was the craft, that had been modified with a modified nuclear power plant, and that there were 25 black helicopters around that craft at that time because it was on its way into the Gulf of, or over the Gulf of Mexico.
And that in any situation where a craft like that was being test phoned, it apparently held four aliens originally, but in modifications it would only hold two American pilots.
and it was they're having instability problems and uh...
the people were radiated but because of the level of secrecy and the classification on it that's one of those really unfortunate things that uh...
During the news conference with Colonel Haynes, poor Colonel Haynes, I call him, he was asked repeatedly about Area 61.
I live fairly close to Area 61.
In the movie Independence Day, of course, you'll recall, I'm sure you saw it, they led the president in and he was shown all these incredible things, including a craft and beings in these glass containers.
Now, I have seen things here, Jamie, that are inexplicable in our skies.
Inexplicable.
Two clear times I have seen things, and many times I have seen less clear things that I would not talk of, just lights doing things lights ought not to be doing.
And so what they were doing is a counterintelligence ploy at the same time.
So they would let things out.
It was an area where they could put, again, I'll use the term dye tracer on people coming into the area.
And they could bag Soviets and interrogate them and find out, and if not interrogate, then they could tag them and determine who their handlers were, who their contacts were.
And so then who in the Soviet Union was interested in this information and this kind of thing.
All right, the U.S. government, which already owns a great deal of the land here in my state of Nevada, has, in effect, annexed additional land around Area 51 to prevent the curious from observing.
Why do you think they have done that if they No longer are doing the kind of work there that they were.
And in fact, if you look on a Bureau of Lands and Mines map or Bureau of Land Management map, you'll see an area in there within the Area 51 confines that indicates off-limits radioactive.
And it has nothing to do with, apparently, with radioactivity.
It has to do with other activities, of which even the security and perimeter guards that, and there are stories floating around that they have found abandoned security guard vehicles at the perimeter of these areas where they have wandered in and they have not returned.
Well, they have all sorts of security in place in that area.
And believe me, you cannot get close to it without encountering some people you don't really want to meet and possibly ending up in jail if you go too far.
The University of Pennsylvania students that were alleged to have been on the site at the same time before recovery personnel arrived, has anyone tracked them or found out who they were and interviewed them?
I think that there was, I think Randall and Schmidt had located or sort of located somebody along the line, but I don't think anything came to any significant fruition in any of that.
He had seen a sighting, let's say, while at a Kiwanis Club parking lot.
And he's not just a casual observer.
He was an astrophysicist at Annapolis for his major.
So he made promises that he was going to get to the bottom of this UFOS issue.
If the government had information, he wanted to see the public got that information.
If they didn't, he wanted to know why they didn't.
The last line is always left off, and that is, as long as it isn't against national security.
Now, when he became president, at the point where he began to really rumble about this subject area, it was determined that he was now in a need-to-know position.
And so they briefed him.
And what each president would subsequently find out is there is a long-term plan underway for the eventual complete release of this information, but gradually.
Yes, let me stop you, Jamie, and tell you a little story.
And I've told it before.
A caller, a very credible caller, called when I had another guest on said.
He went to a Jimmy Carter book signing.
Jimmy Carter was doing, as a lot of people do in book signings and hardly looking up, signing books like crazy, one after the other.
This caller took the time and trouble to capture ex-President Carter's attention eye to eye and asked him specifically and directly about his promise to reveal everything.
According to the caller, Jimmy Carter stopped cold and actually had tears form in his eye.
Now, Jimmy Carter was, in my opinion, not particularly an effective president because he micromanaged, and I have a lot of arguments with some of his policies and things he did.
But one thing Jimmy Carter was, was an honest man.
And so the question becomes, what could they have told Jimmy Carter that would have made him decide to cast away all of his promises made during the campaign and shut his mouth?
What could they have told him that would be so profound that he would shut up?
Well, we got a draft at one point of the briefing that he was given, and he was shown the fact that there was an alien had been in our possession, so to speak, but it really was in our possession, you know,
almost as a liaison, and that the technology level was advancing, that there were projects underway to determine all of those things, that there was an emergency release program, and that there was a gradual release, which was the best possible way to not damage institutions, not frighten people, and let this thing begin to assimilate into the general public.
The main thing being to get people to exercise a thinking that it could indeed be real.
Or of that slow release idea, in other words, Brookings suggested, were we to find out all at once, disruption of institutions and scientists and blah, blah, blah, all the rest would be tremendous.
So instead, we get a slow capsule release form of information.
This is Cheyenne in the City of the Falling Angels.
Yes.
My family moved to Roswell in the 70s, and I lived there in the 80s.
I walked the medicine path and apprenticed as a healer with the Native Americans.
As such, I was adopted by the Chicano and the Native American.
I was shown a side of Roswell that a lot of whites aren't privileged to see.
I think it's information that's necessary to anyone who is doing any kind of research with Roswell, and it's as difficult to accept as the Tuskegee experiment.
I know I'm going to sound like a looney tune, but that's what your show is about, right?
The power there in Roswell is controlled by a very few families.
That power influence the Roswell record.
I was very concerned when you started your research with Art's Parts.
I was afraid that you'd stray into the wrong spot and you'd lose Arts Parts.