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July 2, 1997 - Art Bell

03:21:10

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Jamie Shandera - Roswell Crash

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01:08:13

boris said

26:16

jamie shandera

01:25:57

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roger leir

01:55

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unidentified		The KSTB high desert and the great American Southwest,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bid you all good evening this morning, as the case may be, across all these many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains in the west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast A.M. And I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		During the next few evenings, we are going to, in effect, be answering the Air Force News Conference with respect to Roswell.
		As you know, the 50th anniversary of Roswell is upon us.
		And in Roswell, thousands, tens of thousands, will be gathering to celebrate the anniversary of an event that these people believe was the first real contact with extraterrestrial life forms in what is said to have been a crash near Roswell, New Mexico.
		And the only way I can think of to answer what the Air Force has given us, which basically is, in my opinion, nonsensical and probably more easily believed by the dummies displayed than the American public, we're going to try and lay it out very carefully for you.
		There are a number of things occurring simultaneously.
		There are some things which tonight I'm not going to mention that are going on in Phoenix that I'm studying and trying to put together.
unidentified		Phoenix, ta-da, does that ring a bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of synchronicity here may be too much for me.
		I'll have more on the Phoenix situation for you tomorrow.
		And I also will have for you tomorrow a bit of a teaser on a press conference scheduled for 9 o'clock, July 4th, 1997, at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute campus in Roswell, at which time there will be a presentation of scientific tests performed on crashed debris found near Roswell,
		New Mexico, 50 years ago that get this once and for all will prove the downed vehicle was not of Earth origin.
		A research scientist from a major university involved in the testing is going to be on hand to discuss the methodology and the results of the isotopic ratio tests of the Roswell debris.
		Now, there are certain isotopic ratios that are consistent or not consistent with Earth-originated materials.
		Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities and national labs will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is, if this, manufactured, an important word, manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.
		Period.
		In other words, they are going to suggest Roswell case closed.
		They claim they have materials which they can prove are not of Earth origin, which they can prove are manufactured materials.
		So what does that mean?
		That means we have manufactured materials not of Earth collected.
		They're going to suggest or prove at Roswell.
		Now, the scientific aspects of this apparently are said to be ironclad.
		We shall see.
		Tomorrow night, I will have a guest who will preview some of that material for you.
		Tonight, we are going to trace for you, in a lot of ways, the origins of the entire Roswell incident.
		For 50 years, the photographs taken in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, that's a very important date, folks, not 1953, not 1959, but July 8th, 1947, have been thought to be the remnants of a weather balloon as part of the government's cover-up of what really occurred.
		But clear testimony and careful research reveal a very different story.
		In fact, the events leading up to the photographs taken that day form the only finite timeline that indicates clear government cooperation until a momentous discovery caused the shroud of secrecy to descend.
		Researchers and other experts think the seven photographs taken in General Ramey's Fort Worth office show remnants from a weather balloon and assume that they were part of the cover story.
		But photographs are only evidentiary support of the personal testimony of the individuals who were actually in the room and handled that material.
		Carefully researched and documented interviews are supported by statements from Associated Press and other newspaper articles, revealing very clearly that four of the photographs left the general's office prior to the order for cover-up.
		The government had been cooperating with the press up until the second field team over in Roswell with aerial reconnaissance made a crucial discovery.
		But by this time, they had already allowed the photographs of extraterrestrial debris to leave the general's office.
		Because of the innocuous nature of the debris, they chose to call it, quote, remnants of a weather balloon, end quote.
		Jamie Chanderea, Shandarea, I'm going to have a tough time with this, Ph.D., U.S. Army.
		No, let me correct that.
		Let me start with Jamie.
		Chandereya has been a director, producer, investigative journalist for 30 years.
		He has worked behind the scenes, guiding productions in news documentaries, political campaigns, national and international commercials, and thousands of shows of every variety.
		Over the last 15 years, his primary focus has been the investigation into what the U.S. government knows about extraterrestrials, fact or fiction.
		He received the controversial MJ-12 documents anonymously in the mail in 1984.
		Despite relentless effort, debunkers have never been able to definitively disprove the documents regardless of their claims.
		While researching documents in the National Archives, he also discovered the Cutler Twining document, that would be General Twining, and he created the Aviary, which has taken on a mythical life of its own, that's true.
		It is composed of intelligence sources, the true identities, which have never been revealed.
		He has sustained the longest-running inside investigation into the world's greatest secret.
		The initial crash at Roswell was just the beginning.
		Communicated encounters, technological exchanges, alien ambassadors, test flights in alien craft.
		It's all part of the history you didn't know.
		Harry Truman said it best when he stated, the only thing new in the world is the history you didn't know.
		So in a moment, Jamie Chanderet is going to be Ph.D., who actually is the man who shot most of the photographs in Raimi's office and actually handled the debris, is also going to be on the air.
		So we are going to take a very careful look at what really did occur in Roswell.
		And if you are interested, I suggest you stay tuned.
		Now, the Beijing Radio.
		One thing is clear, and it is painfully clear to the people in the upper central part of the U.S. around the Twin Cities.
		Most recently, yesterday, my God, they had some awful weather there, awful weather.
		The weather is undergoing a change, temporary or permanent.
		I don't know.
		We can argue about that, but not about the fact that the weather is changing.
		And let me tell you, when it gets bad, as those folks know, the first thing to go is the power.
		And when the power goes, you are going to want to have information.
		As a matter of fact, information could well save your life.
		You need to know what's going on.
		The Beijing free play radio will allow you to have that information.
		And it could save your life.
		It does not use batteries.
		It is an AM-FM shortwave radio.
		And it weighs seven pounds.
		It has internally the Bayless Clockwork Generator.
		And then externally, there is a crank, and you turn this crank for 30 seconds.
		This radio will then faithfully play for 30 minutes with no external power nor batteries whatsoever.
		It has its own power.
		Normally, we sell, as you well know, this radio at the discount price of $119.95.
	For the 4th of July weekend, through Monday only, listen very carefully, through Monday only, we have just reduced the price to $109.95, and that includes shipping and handling.
	So to your door, $109.95, only as long as supply lasts.
	In other words, if between now and Monday it dries up, which it may well do, that will be that.
	So there you've got it.
	If you want one, call the C-Crane Company at 1-800-522-8863.
	That's 1-800-522-8863.
	The C-Crane Company.
	That's 1-800-232-5665.
	You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
	Tell them Art Bell sent you.
	Please do.
	All right.
	Now, at it for over 30 years investigating all of this is Jamie Chanderet.
	Jamie, welcome to the program.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it you are on your way to Roswell, sort of.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		On my way to Roswell, sort of.
		Yeah, I'm working on a new documentary being produced out of New York.
		And I have a lot of pickup shots to get along the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Jamie, I'm not hearing you very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For some reason, you need more audio.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Can you hear me better now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're going to have to really stay into that phone, Jamie, or they're not going to hear you.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I'll be right in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		That's good.
		All right, Jamie, you've been at this, what, 30 years investigating all of this?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, of the 30 years, the first 15 were my training ground.
		I spent a lot of years in news and shooting documentaries, and that sort of laid the groundwork for what was to come along.
		And it was in, I guess, 1982 when William Moore, who had written the original Roswell Incident book that Stan Friedman had researched on, and Charles Berlitz actually wrote the text for that book.
		He had contacted me because the source had made contact with him when that book was published, a source inside the intelligence community, somebody who wanted to share information.
		And he'd been dealing with his deep throat for a while when he came to me.
		I'd known him for a couple of years.
		And he thought that maybe we could raise some money and do a film.
		And I said, well, if I've learned anything in the time I've been in this business, raising money to do a film is the last thing I'm interested in.
		But what I do see here is something very interesting, a situation very much analogous to Watergate.
		If indeed this source that's feeding information is bona fide, then why is he cultivating people in the private sector to feed this information to?
		So it wasn't that I bought in immediately and said, oh, wow, this is great.
		It looked like an interesting story either way, because the story he was telling had to do with the government's role in all of this.
		And if he was telling the real story, then there's no story bigger.
		But if he wasn't telling the real story, then it was still interesting to me, because why was he cultivating people in the private sector to run a hoax like this on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Disinformation.
		Well, that's what we need to do.
		Intentional disinformation, Lord.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		What ultimately I decided I had to do, and all my years in documentaries and news, was a terrific training ground for me.
		Because if you do a documentary about a different culture, about a different thing, you have to really reach the mindset of the people that you're shooting.
		Sure.
		To be able to tell their story from their perspective, to be able to translate it so that others that don't understand them can understand them.
		So I felt I had to do the exact same thing with the intelligence community.
		I had to absorb and understand and be able to interface with the intelligence community to understand what was going on.
		And it was an incredible education because the intelligence community is truly a subculture.
		And I don't mean that in any negative sense, per se.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I understand.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		A culture separate from normal society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By definition, of course.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		By definition.
		And disinformation is a very big part of that process.
		And one of the things we had to learn early on was that disinformation will always be there.
		It is standard operating procedure.
		And so what you have to do is you can never, ever take straight out of face value anything from an intelligent person, an intelligent person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Jamie.
		The guard against this in America is supposed to be the press, the newspapers, the investigative broadcast media, and so forth and so on.
		Has the press fulfilled its duty in this regard over the years as the ongoing examination of Roswell and not just Roswell, but what goes beyond Roswell, contact with alien beings, recovered crash debris, and so forth and so on is concerned.
		Has the press done its job?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		They haven't even come close, and for a lot of reasons.
		Some of those reasons are self-preservation.
		Other reasons are the war between government and the press.
		The government side has an enormous distrust of the media.
		So they don't let media in.
		So it's always an at-odds situation.
		They're always doing battle.
		One of the ways I think that we were, and I say we, it was William Moore initially in the investigation with me.
		One of the ways that we were, I think, initially...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is not the Bill Moore that's on short wave with the U.S. Naval Department supposedly secret papers in 1972, not that Bill Moore.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, this is William L. Moore, who originally wrote the Philadelphia Experiment back around 1979 with Charles Berlitz again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And he wrote the original book, The Roswell Incident, with Charles Berlitz in around 1980.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're going to leap ahead for a second, then we'll leap back.
		The Air Force just held a news conference, as you are well aware.
		Were you able to see that in its entirety?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I saw the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You saw the whole thing.
unidentified		How did you come away from that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, in one way you want to really laugh incredibly hard.
		In another way, you want to almost cry because it's such a pathetic scene.
		I felt sorry, actually, for Colonel Haynes because I think he was an unwitting dupe in the whole process.
		I don't think this man was at all prepared for what he was up against.
		And I think it was unfortunate for that.
		My view on it, and this is my personal take, is that this thing was somebody was pulling the strings from way on high.
		And they did something very deliberate, and that was to fan the flames.
		This wasn't meant to quell anything.
		This was another trial balloon to test the waters, to look at public reaction, look at media reaction, and draw lines.
		And I think they got exactly what they wanted from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did the press do its job at that press conference?
		I mean, they did ask about the six-year gap between the beginning of the experiments with the dummies and the experimental aircraft and the balloon trains and all the rest of it.
		Beginning in 1953 through 1969, they asked this Colonel, how can you explain this six-year minimum difference?
		And the Colonel said his answer was time compression, that people forget dates and events.
		And they did come back and say, but six years, Colonel, and he just sort of looked perplexed, paused, and said, well, I really don't have an answer.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a shame somebody didn't ask him about dummy compression because, you know, with the number of bodies found together, we only saw single dummies being dropped in individual parachutes.
		There's also a major discrepancy pointed out by the Time magazine article when the retired Colonel Weaver, and Weaver is an interesting name because Weaver is the one who gave birth to that six-pound baby a couple of years ago, the report on the mogul balloons.
		You know, that six-pound book of a textbook in propaganda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was 1994, right?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right, yes.
		And that was as a response to the GAO investigation.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think the Air Force felt compelled at this time, and a lot of people ask this question, after the 1994 report, to come back again and attempt to explain away right on the anniversary of Roswell, once again, the same thing, only with a little added bonus of dummies, which, by the way, were full human size.
		They actually showed photographs of them with some test pilots and so forth.
		Why did they feel the need to come back now and try and explain the whole thing away again?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a very good question.
		It's one that nobody can answer on the street.
		It seems very clear, as I stated earlier, somebody's pulling strings and they wanted to fan the flames.
		There's nothing, absolutely nothing in that press conference that could have quelled or satisfied anybody who had an interest in this subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, if you look at the Roswell celebration coming up as a commercial venture, it seems to me that the people who are putting this on should have authored a letter of absolute thanks to the Air Force for that press conference because nothing could have given it a bigger boost than what they did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you agree?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I totally agree.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		100%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jamie, hold on.
		We'll be back to you in a moment.
		This will be quite an evening.
unidentified		From the high desert, near Dreamland, this is Coast to Coast A.M. Call
		our Bell toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's who we are.
		My guest is Jamie Chanderet.
		Coming up at the beginning of the next hour.
		We will be joined by Jay Vaughn Johnson, Ph.D., who is the photographer who actually shot the photographs.
		Most of the pictures in General Ramey's office.
		The pictures of the Roswell debris.
		And this is the only way that I can see that we are going to begin to get to the truth about what really occurred in 1947, not 1953 through 1969.
		So that's what we're all about tonight and for the next few days.
		We'll get back to Jamie in a moment.
unidentified		Nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Jamie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you there?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I sure am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Jamie.
		Good.
		If you would, how sure are you that what crashed at Roswell was not a balloon or a balloon train, and that the dummies that they showed us were not, in fact, the bodies that everybody has claimed were recovered along with a cramp at Roswell or near Roswell?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I'm absolutely 100% positive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's a whole stacked and layered scenario that is actually quite fascinating because it takes place over several time zones all at the same time with competing events.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		As we go to the original Roswell scenario, which was that on the night of July 2nd, electrical storm, there was an explosion heard in the night sky, which would indicate something obviously not crashed on the ground, but exploded in the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		July 2nd, in other words, exactly 50 years ago tonight.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		Now, that was reported in the newspaper and stuff the next day.
		The Wilmots sitting on their porch and so forth.
		They witnessed that it was heard by Mac Brazzle, the rancher, out in a ranch house with no radio, no newspaper, or anything else.
		His family lived off near Corona where the kids could go to school.
		He'd been out there for weeks, and he normally was weeks at a time.
		The next day, on July 3rd, he goes out to the field and sees all this debris scattered everywhere.
		Pulled some of the bigger chunks into a little shed.
		Then the next night, he was in a bar in Corona, New Mexico, and he heard, which is the 4th of July, and he heard these stories of these silver-streaking things seen all over the country.
		And he started telling tales about his finds.
		And somebody said, well, maybe this is one of those silver-streaking things.
		You should get it into Roswell.
		So the next day, he went back to the ranch.
		He collected his wool.
		He collected some pieces, and he headed into town the following day, July 6th, the Sunday.
		Went to the sheriff's office.
		In the sheriff's office, the sheriff said, well, you get a crash of something out there.
		You better call the base.
		They call the base, and they get Major Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer, at the officers' club having lunch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		So Jesse decides, well, if there's a crash or something, I better check this out.
		So he comes over to interview the rancher.
		And he says, well, you've got a field full of this stuff.
		Well, we better go out there and take a look.
		So they make arrangements to meet at the end of town.
		Marcel goes back to the base and gets somebody else to go with him, gets a counterintelligence corps officer, Sheridan Cabot.
		They inform Colonel Blanchard, the base commander, what they're going to do.
		And they head out to meet the rancher with a 42 Buick and a Jeep carry-all.
		It takes them the rest of that day to get out there.
		They stay overnight on the 6th, and Monday, the 7th, they begin collecting this material.
		They fill the entire 42 Buick, front seat, back seat, trunk.
		They fill the entire Jeep carry-all and head back to the base.
		Now, this was very strange material to them because it was as thin as the foil in a chewing gum wrapper, but it had strange qualities to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		In the movie, Roswell, it was shown that this debris, This foil-type material had all kinds of very unusual qualities.
		You could crumple it up, you couldn't damage it, you couldn't hurt it.
		If crumpled, it would return immediately to its former configuration.
		Is that, in essence, what you have heard?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That is some of there's two actual locations ultimately that were discovered.
		The first was the debris site that Mac Brazil and that we're discussing right at this moment.
		Some of the, and then there was eventually another site where the main part of the craft and bodies were located.
		But Mac Brazil wasn't aware of that, nor was Marcel or Cavett as of July 7th.
		Now, I had talked to, what was it, Master Sergeant Rickett?
		He was Counterintelligence Corps.
		They don't normally go by the rank.
		When they're counter-intelligence, they can kind of move in their own way.
		The Counterintelligence Corps units were not under the base commander's control.
		They were under Counterintelligence Corps out of Washington, under their control.
		Anyway, he told me very specifically when he was at the craft site that he held one of those pieces that you're talking about that would crumple in your hand and then you let go of it and it boom, went right back to its original shape.
		So on back to the seventh now, as they come back into town, Gavin goes straight to the base with his material and Marcel stops by at his house, wakes his son up, has him come down, they take some of the pieces out, and he was very excited about this otherworldly stuff they had because he had seen most everything that flew.
		And they tried to piece some of it together, but it was just too big of a task.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I have interviewed Jesse Marcel Jr. on this program.
		He tells the exact tale you're talking about, remembers his father coming home, remembers handling material that was more substantial than the foil, bars with very strange dye beams or symbols embedded in the embedded.
		That's right.
		He ran his fingers over those symbols, and so he physically had them in his hands.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		Yeah, and I've talked to him also, and I've gone through all the different pieces on that.
		So anyway, so Major Marcel puts the stuff back in the vehicle and it heads back to the base.
		Now, at that point, the next question is at what point did this stuff get over to Fort Worth?
		Because we know the following day, on July 8th, that material shows up at Fort Worth, and there were pictures taken of material in Fort Worth.
		Now, the controversy, or the thing that was always thought, was that the material shot in Fort Worth, and the reason Fort Worth comes in the picture is this, at Fort Worth was Carswell Airfield.
		Now, Carswell was the home of the commanding general of the 8th Army Air Forces.
		Roswell base was under, the Roswell Army Airfield was under the 8th Army Air Forces command, and so General Ramey would be the first general in the chain of command.
		They were all under the strategic air command.
		Roswell, of course, was extremely important because it was the only atomic bomber wing in the world.
		In July of 47, we were the only ones that had the atomic bomb, and the elite that flew them were all stationed at Roswell.
		All right, so the question then is, when did it go over?
		How did it go over?
		And what happened to it?
		And how did the story that it was a weather balloon in Raimi's office come about?
		It came about for several reasons.
		Number one, the captions that are showed in the paper of July 9th indicated that this was some kind of a radar reflector from a weather balloon.
		And that was accepted all the way along with one slight aberration.
		And that one aberration was Major Jesse Marcel's testimony.
		He claimed that his picture, taken in General Ramey's office, was taken with actual debris.
		None of the exciting stuff, but very innocuous debris.
		The more exciting stuff was still out in the belly of the plane, under armed guard, waiting to be shipped to Wright Field, where the Air Material Command and the Foreign Technology, which, you know, ultimately the Foreign Technology Division and others could begin the examination of it.
		Now, I was looking one day at the Roswell Incident book that Bill Moore had co-authored, and I said to Bill, I said, something's a little strange here to me.
		You've got Jesse Marcel with this debris, and it says that, and he very clearly said, and he said it in four different interviews, that the debris in the picture that he was in was the real stuff.
		I said, but this picture with Raimi and then Colonel, Chief of Staff of the Eighth Army Air Forces, Colonel DeBose, it says that stuff was substituted and a picture was taken.
		It looks like the same stuff.
		So I don't understand the difference here.
		Well, it turned out that the reason that it said that in the caption underneath the Raimi and DeBose picture was because Jesse Marcel had speculated that after he was ordered out, that they changed the stuff and had pictures taken with a Westerballoon.
		Well, at about the time that Unsolved Mysteries did a big Roswell piece, interest in the Roswell incident began to escalate enormously.
		And into the picture enters J. Bond Johnson.
		And J. Bond Johnson contacted me one day because he had seen my name on something and he saw that I used to work with RKO General.
		And he had done some stuff with RKO Pictures at one point, and he thought we might have something in common, and he was interested in learning more about what was going on in the investigations on Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who is J. Bond Johnson?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, J. Bond Johnson, it turns out, in 1947, was a Cub reporter slash photographer for the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
		And it just turns out that on that particular day, July 8th, he was sitting in the paper when the city editor ripped off something off the wire that indicated that the flying disc that had been recovered in Roswell was now on its way to General Ramey's office.
		And the city editor asked, Bond, do you have your camera in your car?
		And he says, well, I sure do.
		He says, well, then get your butt over to the base and get up to Ramey's office and get a picture of this thing.
		So he did.
		Now, earlier that day, we know that Walter Hout had put out a press release under the orders of Colonel Blanchard.
		We know that the time that that happened at approximately 11.30 because we know that that's what Walter Hout said, number one, but that's backed up by the fact that when he gave it to Frank Joyce in the rotation that they did normally in Roswell.
		Frank Joyce was eating his lunch, and it was sometime around noon.
		And then Frank Joyce took his time getting it around, and then eventually to the Western Union Wire Service around 2 o'clock out of Santa Fe.
		And that's when it hit big time all over the world that a flying disc had been recovered.
		Now, that is backed up by the fact that the other newspaper in town, other than the Roswell Record, that they began their evening shift, and they almost could not get a paper out because starting at 2 o'clock, the phones began ringing off the hook.
		People from all over the world were trying to descend upon Roswell to find information of this stuff.
		Now, when Blanchard told Hout to put out the press release at 11.30, Hout asked him if he could see the stuff.
		And this is in many interviews with Walper Houten.
		He's always been consistent about this.
		And Blanchard said, no, you can't.
		You don't have a need to.
		Secondly, it's not here anymore.
		It's already gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Already gone.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, the Associated Press, in their efforts to find it, had determined specifically, and it's in numerous AP articles on the story, that the plane left with the debris at 10 a.m. on July 8th.
		And as the press release said, it was released to hire headquarters, accompanied by Major Marcel.
		But it didn't say where higher headquarters were.
		So the press was going crazy.
		They were trying to find this stuff, and they were just sending on Roswell looking for it.
		But they found it had already left at 10 a.m.
		Now, the important thing about the 10 a.m. timeframe is this.
		When Blanchard goes to Walter Howard at 11.30, with the material already gone, that means he, Blanchard, had already notified Hire Headquarters.
		Higher Headquarters saw enough importance in this that get it to Raimi's office, let Raimi look at it first.
		He's the first general in the chain of command, and then on to Wright Field.
		So when Blanchard put out the press release, he did that only on orders from Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so Raimi was in Fort Worth.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, yes, Raimi's in Fort Worth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And ultimately, the material went to Wright Pat.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right, which was Wright Field at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Wrightfield, yeah.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, so now here's the important part here.
		Blanchard didn't do that press release on his own.
		He would have been usurping higher command if he had, and he had already released that material.
		It was no longer his prerogative to make that decision.
		Now, what it turns out that then Colonel DuBose, and then as a retired general, when I interviewed him, he indicated very clearly that General Clements McMullen was directing the show from Washington.
		And General Clements McMullen was then acting director of the Strategic Air Command.
		Now, as Acting Director of the Strategic Air Command, what he was doing was getting each individual in this case, Blanchard, DuBose, Ramey, and talking to them and giving them specific orders.
		There's no chain of command.
		He was directing everything to each individual.
		And he told Blanchard to send a portion of that with a courier over to Fort Worth.
		And he told DuBose to meet that plane, take that in, and look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, how do we know all that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, we know that in this way.
		Earlier researchers, when they talked to General DuBose, missed a very important chunk of information.
		And here's how they missed it.
		Psychologists will all tell you that memory is in chunks.
		There are highlights.
		I think as Bon Johnson, who is also a clinical psychologist, says, he likes to use the phrase, memories are in sound bites.
		It's not a contiguous flow of information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		The sound bites in General DuBose's mind of 40 or so years earlier had been the fact that Clements McMullen ordered them to do this.
		He had ordered them ultimately to send it to him and ordered them ultimately to, don't you ever speak of this again?
		Don't you tell your wife?
		Don't you tell your son?
		Don't you tell anybody?
		As long as you live, you're out of it now.
		Do you understand?
		And he said, by God, I was a good soldier, and I never spoke of it again.
		And he told Raimi the same thing, and neither one of us ever talked about it.
		And we were good buddies.
		We flew missions during the war.
		We golfed together.
		We had long trips in the cars.
		We did break there.
		So they never spoke of it.
		So his sound bites, his chunks of memory were mostly the command from General Clements McMullen.
		The debris was uninteresting.
		So he forgot a whole chunk of things.
		So he told a story that goes like this.
		That Blanchard sent a pouch over with a courier, that he, DeVose, met the plane, that he handed over to another courier to get on another plane to go to Washington.
		Now, as he told the story, he said that General McMullen told him to look at it, and then he tells a story about meeting the plane and giving to another courier and going on.
		Well, something struck me as being real odd in this picture.
		What's odd is planes flew from Roswell to Washington.
		Why would you ever courier something to Fort Worth to change couriers and change planes and send it to Washington from there?
		The first courier could be debriefed by somebody, because he would know, you know, if it's Marcel, he was there at the field.
		They could talk to him.
		The second courier wouldn't know anything.
		It makes no sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they were supposedly dropping some off at Ramey's office, correct, General?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's the part that was missing in DeBose's statement.
		So I said to General DeBose then at that point, I said, well, General, I'm a little hazy on something here.
		If you were ordered to look at it, why didn't you look at it?
		And he was silent for a moment.
		He said, well, you know, I don't know.
		I said, well, General, I'm looking at this picture in General Raimi's office.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		He said, I don't know.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He said, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were ordered to look at it, why didn't you do it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Response, I don't know.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, because he had forgotten that he had the sound bites.
		He had the highlights.
		The uninteresting stuff was the stuff.
		So I said, look, I have this picture in my hand.
		I said, it's you.
		It's General Raimi, and it's this stuff in General Raimi's office.
		And everybody's calling this, you know, a weather balloon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, I've got the photograph with you in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you have to say about that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He says, well, I don't know what picture you're talking about.
		I said, well, it's you.
		And he said, well, please, if you say I'm in the picture, I believe you.
		But I don't know what picture you're talking about.
		And then it dawned on me, this man hasn't seen this picture since 1947.
		He's forgotten all kinds of chunks of this thing.
		And nobody ever refreshed his memory.
		Nobody even put the picture in front of him when they talked to him.
		So I said, gentlemen, let me send you this picture.
		Would you look at it?
		And can I call you in a few days?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Worth a thousand words.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He said, absolutely.
		So I sent him the picture.
		Called him back.
		I said, you get it?
		He said, oh, absolutely.
		He said, boy, there's no mistaking who that is.
		I said, yes, sir.
		I said, now, can you tell me what that is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, he admitted, Yeah, sure, it's me.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He says, Yeah, absolutely.
		He said, Sure, I can tell you what that is.
		He said, By God, there's no man alive can tell you any better than I can.
		He says, That's the stuff.
		That's the stuff that came in from Roswell.
		He said, I met the plane, I took it in the office, and I put it on that floor.
		I said, Okay, now tell me something.
		So, you're saying to me that's not a weather balloon?
		He said, Absolutely not.
		There was no weather balloon in that office.
		I said, All right, I said, let me go through this again.
		Did a weather balloon stuff come in from Roswell?
		He says, No, absolutely not.
		I said, and you guys didn't put a weather balloon.
		He says, no, by God.
		He says, we were West Pointers.
		We would never have done that.
		I said, well, but everybody's saying that that's supposed to be, you know, a radar reflector from a weather balloon.
		He says, no, no, absolutely not.
		This wasn't even reflective material.
		This was a dull gray.
		None of us knew what it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he talk about the composition of the material?
unidentified		No.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All he knew was it was not weather balloon.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It had nothing to do with weather balloon, and nobody knew what it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Jamie, hold tight.
		Does more of this have to unwind, or are we ready to bring on Jay Bond Johnson?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		We can do it and unwind it with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let us do that then, all right?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For those of you who really want to know what happened at Roswell and did not buy what the Air Force said the other day, stay tuned.
		Over the next several nights, we are going to be doing things that I think will astound you.
		This night will be no exception.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		Last year...
		...and I'll see you next time.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		My guest is Jamie Chanderer.
		He is an investigative journalist, and he has been working on Roswell for 30 years.
		Joining us shortly is J. Bond Johnson, Ph.D., who shot most of the photographs in General Ramey's office and, in fact, handled the debris.
		He even arranged for the photographs.
		He asked General Ramey what the material was, and General Ramey stated, quote, we don't know what the hell it is, end quote.
		Johnson was there because he was a reporter photographer for the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
		His city editor had, as you learned this last hour, if you've been with us, had sent him over to the base because of a wire story saying that parts of the flying disc recovered in Roswell were now in General Ramey's office.
		His testimony is supported by General Ramey, General DuBose, and Major Marcel.
		J. Bond Johnson, Ph.D. U.S. Army Colonel retired now, holds his doctorate in psychology and has an undergraduate degree in journalism, served four tours of duty at the Pentagon and one tour of duty at the White House with the National Security Council.
		At NSC, he was under Generals Haig and Skokra in PsycOps.
		Concurrently, he is a clinical psychologist, and get this, a United Methodist minister.
		He'll join us in a moment and talk about the photographs that he took in General Ramey's office, the material that he handled.
		This all relates now to the entire Roswell story that we're going to try to unwind for you, as the Air Force did not in their news conference the other day.
		So back to it in a moment.
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		Once again, back now to Jamie Chanderer.
		Jamie, to recap for those who might be joining us this hour, an explosion at Roswell, July 2nd, 1947.
		Debris found in a farmer's field there.
		A collection of all that material.
		And then if I've got it correct, that material apparently was flown to Fort Worth first, and then on to Wright Field, now known as Wright-Patterson.
		Correct.
		During the time that it was at Fort Worth in General Ramey's office.
		A small portion of it, a small portion of it, it was photographed by a man we're about to bring on the air.
		In other words, somebody who was really there at the time.
		Is that about right?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's about right.
		And in fact, it was my discussion with Dr. Johnson that opened my eyes to this whole thing, because he stated, you know, when he was in that office, they didn't talk about Weathermoor.
		There's no discussion of Weathermoor.
		They didn't know what it was.
		And suddenly, what I found was in researching newspaper microfilm, I found a Los Angeles Herald Express, the defunct paper from many years ago.
		And on the front page, they had indicated, Associated Press had indicated, that General Vandenberg had gone into AAF, Army Air Forces still at that time in July, the AAF press headquarters to monitor the recovery of this flying disc.
		The Associated Press reporters were there in Washington at the AAF press room, and General Ramey was in telephone communications with General Vandenberg, and General Vandenberg asked him what the stuff looked like, and Ramey is quoted by the Associated Press on July 8th.
		Now, this is very important, that only on July 8th, Ramey tells Vandenberg, who was acting chief of staff at that time, because Tue Spatz, the chief of staff, was on vacation in the Pacific Northwest.
		He was telling Vandenberg that they didn't know what this Was.
		It was foil-like material that it could be 20 to 25 feet in diameter if reconstructed.
		Now, that's a different story than he was telling by the next day.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Certainly is.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, they were cooperating with the press.
		Now, when you back up and look at the first headline that came out on the Roswell Daily Record, it's the most strange headline of all.
		And there's a key word in there that tips off what the headline was all about.
		The headline says, RAAF for Roswell Army Airfield captures flying disc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Captures?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Why would it say captures?
		Now, I was already pointed out to those who were with us the last hour, that Blanchard did not put that, Colonel Blanchard, the base commander at Roswell, did not put that press release out on his own volition.
		He was ordered from Washington to do it because the material had already left his control.
		So only under the orders of Hirate Command could he ever have put out that press release.
		Now, the word captures is in there for a very particular reason.
		Now, we've, if you go to microfilm of any library in the country that has microfilm from a newspaper from 1947, and I would have the audience, anybody now wants to do this, go do it.
		It's an incredible exercise.
		Go to June of 1947, go down toward the end of June, and you will find every single day a front-page story, if not headlines, about flying discs and flying saucers being seen all across the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to stop you and ask a question now.
		During this momentous news conference the Air Force had the other day, why wasn't some of the chain of evidence that you're now giving us presented and why weren't questions asked about these specific things during that news conference?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, this goes, I can answer that very clearly because of the very nature of the investigation as I began it in this whole thing back in 1982 with Bill Moore, in this integration into the intelligence community.
		One of the things that's happened is the disinformation we were talking about earlier.
		Disinformation is a very, very important process in intelligence work.
		But what you find with disinformation is this.
		The bigger the disinformation program, the more important the subject matter.
		The purpose of disinformation is to protect the source of something incredibly important.
		So if they want to get information out about something, but they cannot allow anybody to access the source, then they have to paint it with what Winston Churchill used to call, he had the dictum originally, in the time of war, the truth is so valuable, it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies.
		And that is the genesis of where disinformation comes from.
		You pack truth in, but you pack not lies out of whole cloth, but misdirection toward the truth.
unidentified		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And so that's what disinformation is all about.
		Now, the problem with the press is they feel that you're lying to me.
		And if you're going to lie to me, I don't trust you and I won't talk to you.
		Well, that's unfortunate.
		I understand that, but it's unfortunate because unless you can try to insinuate yourself into a situation, understand how somebody else operates, if you're going to put a wall between you, then you're never going to get educated as to how you can deal with the situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but Jamie, look, in the press conference the Air Force had, they clearly laid out the fact that all of this began not in 1947.
		They did at least ask that question.
		They said, Colonel, was any of this going on in 1947?
		No, he said.
		It didn't begin until 1953.
		Now, you're talking about a chain of nearly irrefutable evidence.
		I mean, newspaper headlines, photographs, General Ramey's office, what we're about to hear from J-Bon Johnson, all the rest of it that occurred not in 1953, but in 1947.
		And the Colonel could only talk about time compression and people forgetting dates and all the rest of it.
		But I mean, we've got, as you point out, newspaper headlines, a whole chain of evidence that occurred in 1947.
		Why didn't somebody lay this out for the Colonel and require some sort of answer?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's what the problem is.
		The headlines we're talking about only showed up in the western United States.
		Before that day of July 8th was over, something dramatic happened, and the cooperation that the Air Force was having slammed shut.
		It was important to the Air Force initially to show some of this innocuous debris, to put a headline out that says captures, to show that they're in control.
		Because in addition to these headlines talking about everybody seeing these flying discs, General Twining is being interviewed, Tui Spatz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force is being interviewed, and they're saying, what are these streaking things?
		And their answer in each case was, we don't know.
		It's not ours.
		It's not experimental.
		We don't know.
		Now, that's an untenable position for the military to be in, especially the all-powerful U.S. military following World War II.
		We're still in a post-war period, as it were.
		Now, the fact that they found this innocuous stuff, they're looking for it.
		There's no weapons.
		There's nothing dangerous here.
		There's nothing to say that this thing was anything more than perhaps a probe.
		We don't know.
		But let's show some of it.
		Let's put it on display.
		Let's cooperate.
		But let's keep the more exotic stuff.
		Let's get it over to study.
		Now, while this was going on in Fort Worth, that very morning, July 8th, a second and much larger team, based on the reports of Marcel and Sheridan Cavett from the day before, of how much debris was in that field, a much larger contingent with trucks and manpower and aerial reconnaissance went back to the site in Roswell.
		So as the day is unfolding over in Fort Worth, they're showing the stuff and they put out another release saying that the stuff that the press couldn't find earlier is now over in Raimi's office and they're going to show it.
		Well, then you have to ask yourself a couple questions.
		Well, why if this was weather, why would they put it in the general's office?
		Why not in the hangar or something?
		Why would they take it?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		What was so important?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why to a general's office?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Why is it so important that they put it in the general's office?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right, so the contingent out in Roswell, with aerial reconnaissance, discovers The main part of the craft and where it landed, and the body.
		This gets reported back through channels, shot through Blanchard, on up the line, and General Clements McMullen gets it in Washington.
		And by the time he gets it, what has happened is Bon Johnson being the closest in proximity to the base of all the different reporters that might have had an opportunity to get over there.
		He's left his office, he's gone over to the base, he walks in, then Raimi comes in, he asks him what is this stuff, and he doesn't know what the hell it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at this point, let's bring Jay Bond Johnson on the air with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Johnson, Doctor, welcome to the program.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		Welcome.
		How to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I ask, Doctor, how old were you when you took these photographs, when you went to General Ramey's office?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		21.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		21 years of age.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your present age?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I'm 71.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		70 years.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jamie, I think I'd like to let you lead the good doctor through an explanation of what occurred.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One of the things I did when I first talked to Bond was I had him go through for me how the newspaper operated.
		So I got into the mix of the day and so we could clarify more correctly the timeframes.
		One of the problems I've always found is when people, for many, many years past, will say, well, something happened exactly at 4 o'clock.
		Well, geez, how do you remember all these years it was 4 o'clock?
		What was it that made you remember that?
		And Bond had remembered it was roughly 4 o'clock when he was told to go over there.
		So as we traced through the timeframe it taken to get to the base, how long he was at the base and how long it took him to get back and so forth, everything corroborated because the day shift was gone and so forth.
		But Bond, why don't you pick up from here and say what happened?
		What did the city editor say to you and what was the purpose of you going over there?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we had gotten this alert from the wire service and the city editor came over and said, Bond, do you have your camera?
		I said, yes, it's in the trunk of my car.
		I had just purchased a new speed graphic, 4x5 speed graphic, and was quite proud of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you were a photographer, to be clear here.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I was primarily a reporter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegraph.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		At that time, I worked the afternoon police run primarily and did feature stories.
		And so I had my own camera just to back up myself when I was out somewhere and grab a shot here and there.
		But I was not a regular photographer as such.
		So at that point, I was engaged as a photographer.
		So I jumped in my car.
		And at that time, the alert said it was being flown from Roswell to Fort Worth.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Be specific as what was being flown?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		The flying saucer that they had captured.
		And it was just about a paragraph that you get a flash alert on the wire service in those days.
		And that's what it prints out on a printer and a yellow piece of paper.
		And that's what he came and handed me and said it was being flown to Fort Worth Army Airfield.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		That was an Associated Press report?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Or INS, or I don't know, one of the wire services.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And so I went out there expecting to arrive there ahead of it, but it said it was en route.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I was surprised to find that it, in fact, was already there.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And I would have expected to be directed to some hangar.
		I had covered as a police reporter, and then I was the military reporter after the war.
		I went away, and I was in the Air Corps as a pilot cadet during the latter part of the war and came back to the Star Telegram and was assigned into the afternoon beat and covered the military bases.
		And so I had been a number of times to General Ramey's office and to the Fort Worth Army Airfield.
		I was surprised because in other instances when there was an airplane crash, they would invariably set it up, reconstruct it in a hangar.
		And that's still done today that way.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		You lay it out, try to see where it fell apart, however, you know, where there was an explosion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Matter of fact, they have done that with Flight 800 most recently.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that was one that they did very meticulously.
		And I expected to see that kind of a thing, that I would go to some hangar and they would start to lay it out there.
		I was very surprised when they directed me to the general's office.
		And the general's office, as they always usually are, are quite plush.
		And the general had carpet on his floors, and it was a large office.
		And that was the thing that struck me.
		After 50 years, I don't have a lot of clear recollections as to the events, you know, our memories and sound vibes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But there were certain things that, you know, when it hits you, it's indelible in your memory.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And there were a few things that were made indelible in my memory.
		The first was, you know, why is it in this general's office?
		And I went in and it had an acrid smell to it.
		And it reminded me of a burned building.
		As an old police reporter, I'd been in a lot of burned buildings.
		And that's what I immediately associated, the smell of this.
		That was the first thing.
		And why would they put this on the general's nice carpet?
		And then Colonel DeBose met me and ushered me into the office, and it was wrapped up in some like meat wrapper paper.
		There were several packages around there.
		One of them, I guess the largest one, had been open, but it was just kind of in a pile of stuff that didn't look like anything.
		So my task was to try to make a picture there, to pose a picture, if you were.
		Sure.
		And it was, so I started laying it out like a rector set or a jigsaw puzzle or something, trying to make something so it would show up in a picture.
		I remember that I was disappointed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you remember the nature of the material?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you handled these materials, what were you handling?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was handling something that was metallic, that was very lightweight, but was very strong.
		I remember that very well.
		It looked a lot like aluminum foil.
		I remember during the war we collected, saved aluminum foil.
		We take the out of cigarette wrappers and you put it all together, make a ball and turn it in.
		That would help the war effort some way.
		And so here was this, and it reminded me a lot of aluminum foil.
		However, it was not near as heavy and was actually more stiff than aluminum foil.
		So that was kind of, so it didn't look quite like aluminum foil.
		It wasn't near as heavy as that, but it looked like it.
		It had a dull finish.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		A dull finish, yes.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		But not shiny finished.
		People asked me about that.
		Was it shiny?
		That was some of the, if it was a radar reflector, I'm told that it would be shiny.
		Well, this was dull gray material, not shiny.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what General DeVoe said.
		He said this was not reflective material.
		This was a dull gray.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Did it have any unusual use?
		Yes.
		Did it have any unusual properties with respect to resilience?
		In other words, if you were to crunch a piece of it.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I did not do that.
		I was not there to test it anyway.
		I actually was there a very short time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		All right, Doctor, we're at the bottom of the hour.
		So both of you stand by, and we will be right back.
		My guests are Jamie Chanderea and Dr. J. Bond Johnson, who was in Dr. Doctor, in General Raimi's office with the materials that had allegedly just come from Roswell.
		Some of the materials.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is CBC.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Top of the morning, everybody.
		My name is Art Bell.
		My guest is Jamie Chanderea, an investigative journalist for 30 years.
		He's been looking into Roswell for a long time.
		Also with us is Dr. Bo Johnson.
		Dr. Johnson, all those years ago, 50 years ago, coming up on that exact anniversary, was in General Ramey's office in Fort Worth, actually taking photographs of what was said to be the debris from Roswell, which actually arrived before he did at the general's office, and we'll pick it up at that point in a moment.
		Gee, I wish Colonel Haynes was here.
		Did you see the video of that water spout churning in the water off Miami?
		Did you hear about all the damage in the twin cities last night?
		Are you aware of the weather changing?
		Well, whether it's bad weather or it's bad behavior, and I'll leave that one alone at that point, there are lots of good reasons to have stored food on hand.
		Lots of good reasons.
		Golden Eagle Enterprises supplies exactly that, a one-year supply of food.
		Now, these are not your grandfather's sea rations.
		They're canned grains and vegetables, tasty gourmetres, soups, fruits, all of them oxygen-absorbed and packed in strong enameled metal cans to ensure a decade-plus shelf life.
		I have it.
		You should too.
		And you should have it in a place where only you know where it is.
		So whether it's a weather emergency or otherwise, it just makes good common sense to have an emergency supply of food on hand.
		And by the way, this food is so good that just in case nothing happens, why, of course, you can eat your investment.
		The number to call, to inquire, is 1-800-447-7911.
		That's 1-800-447-7911.
		Telemart Bell said to call.
		All right, back now to Jamie Shanderea and Dr. J. Bon Johnson.
		Gentlemen, you're both back on the air again.
		Jamie, pick it up where you would like.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right, what was going on at the exact moment that Bon Johnson was shooting those pictures is that the other team in Roswell with aerial reconnaissance was discovering the main part of the craft and the bodies.
		Now, since this is all being directed by Washington, they get this information back to Blanchard, get a ground crew over there to see what, you know, to verify.
		Blanchard notifies higher headquarters, and suddenly, Johnson's taking his pictures, he'd have left and gone back to the paper.
		And he'll fill you in on what's the chaos that was going on in the newspaper when he got back because the Associated Press had brought in a wire photo machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's back up a little bit.
		Dr. Johnson, you said you were arranging this material to try to make something out of it.
		Something that would make a photograph, no doubt, that you take back to your editor.
		Right.
		You had not a lot of luck with that, and so what did you end up taking?
		What pictures did you end up taking?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just took several pictures.
		I didn't take as many as I might because there were no other angles.
		You know what I mean, it was just a pile of junk there, and I had had a little time to lay it out.
		It was, in hindsight, it seems kind of incredible that I was left alone in this room.
		And if this was important material, Colonel DeBose, chief of staff, had ushered me into the general's office and told me that the general would be there shortly.
		And so I was setting up to get ready for the photos and laid this material out on the carpet there.
		And here I was in the room alone.
		And I only had the foresight to, I could have crushed the material or done a lot of things with it.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, what did they do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they just usher you in and leave?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		It was only Colonel DeBose there at that time.
		And he was the number two, the chief of staff.
		And then he went off to look for the general, and then in a minute, they both came back in.
		And I asked the general, as I reconstructed, and from what I've read, I think now that the general had not seen the material at that time.
		Another thing that struck me and continues to strike me when I look at the photographs now.
		The photographs remind me because, you know, it's better than my memory from 50 years ago.
		But here was General Ramey.
		He came in in his Class A uniform.
		That means his frame cap, which is kind of unusual in the Air Corps in those days.
		They usually wore those four and a half caps, you know, the overseas caps, we call them.
		But he has on his frame cap, and not with the grommet out.
		Most pilots in those days had what they call the 20-mission crutch, you know.
		And it kind of flopped down around your ears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		The Charles C. Charles kind of gay blades.
		But here was General Raymond, very crisp in his uniform with his frame cap intact, his ribbons on, his formal dressy classe uniform.
		He comes in, and I said, General, could I pose you here, or could I get you to kneel down there and examine this material?
		And he did, and that's what I can remember.
		When he picked up a big piece of it, it didn't bend or anything.
		He didn't, you know, it was just, they were like cardboard at that point.
		It was as far as the stiffness of it.
		And that shows up in the pictures with Major Marcel, too, that you just kind of tilt it up and it didn't was not limp in any way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was the material that you took the photographs with, with the general, the same material that Major Marcel opposed with?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		In fact, I have compared now full negatives, uncropped negatives, and of both of those.
		And the material is laid out in the Marcel pictures precisely and in the Newton pictures.
		The material is laid out exactly as I displayed it.
		It has not been moved at all.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can overlay each picture, and the debris remained the same on the floor.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nothing was ever changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		See, the problem they had was once he left that office with those pictures, they couldn't change anything.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		They would have a real problem on their hands if they had two sets of photographs with different material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, were you, Dr. Johnson, able to see the Air Force press conference the other day?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I heard it first on radio and then saw the excerpts on the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They claimed, if I heard correctly, and I'm sure I did, that none of this kind of testing involving balloons or balloon trains was going on in 1947, but rather began in 1953.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, the material you were photographing didn't exist until 1953, according to the Air Force.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		In 1953, I was on active duty at the Marine Corps Air Station El Toro.
		That was during the Korean War.
		So I couldn't have been taking the pictures in Fort Worth while I was on active duty in the Marines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it seem somewhat neglectful to you, Doctor, that nobody asks these questions at moments like this news conference that was held?
		I mean, there's not just a six-year gap, it's an impossible lie that was told, just an absolutely impossible lie.
		So how did you react when you heard all of this?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think like a lot of the other press people there, it was kind of, if I could hear the tittering that was going on, it seemed to be a ludicrous response from the media.
		That was my feel.
		And I thought that was one of the saddest comparisons.
		I remember clearly in 1947 when General Ramey explained what's now called the cover-up, the disinformation explanation, that we all accepted it as gospel.
		I had just been in the Air Corps, and when a general said something, we saluted and said, aye, aye, sir.
		There was no question about at all.
		Here was a West Pointer, a man of high integrity, and there was no question, not from the press at all, as to, are you sure, or anything like that.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, the bond clarified, though, he didn't say that in that office that day, did he?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		When you were in the middle of the day, that was the next day, right?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Within a couple of hours or so, he went on the radio and made that announcement.
		And when that happened, the next morning the paper came out and it picked up that story that the general had made this explanation.
		And as far as I know, there was no discussion around the city room or among my peers at all as to any follow-up.
		In other words, once it was spoken, that was it.
		And we went on to the next story.
		Now, compare that today, how if a general says something, the next day they tear it apart and it just fuels the fire now.
		And I think that's one of the things that's fad to me is the erosion of integrity in the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we all agree with you there.
		So you took these photographs.
		I take it you bade farewell to the general and headed back to your Fort Worth Star.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I remember calling in, and the city editor said, hurry back, that they're sending over a wire photo machine from Dallas, which was 30-some odd miles.
		And at the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, we normally did not have wire photo sending capabilities.
		And when we have an important story, they would hurry a portable wire photo transmitter over.
		And so by the time I got there, back to the office, this machine was already there, and there were several people around, the technicians flustering about.
		And I can remember that they bombarded me.
		You know, they wanted it right now.
		And I said, well, I've got to develop them.
		Well, you know, give us wet prints, which a photographer hates to do.
		You know, a photographer likes to take his time and process it properly and fix it, you know, with the hypo and so forth, and dry the negative and then enlarge it and so forth.
		There was not time for that.
		And we've done that before on deadlines.
		And so I did that.
		I did a quick fix on it.
		And you just wipe off the water and stick it on the enlarger and crank it out.
		You don't get as good a quality as you do otherwise.
		But they were pushing me, and they kept coming in the dark room and saying, when can we have it?
		When can we have it?
		So there was a lot of excitement because we were on the East Coast deadline at that time.
		And so they wanted to get this out and get it transmitted.
		So that was another strong remembrance that I have about this was the urgency.
		Now some people have said that by that time, within the two hours, that General Ramey had already made his announcement.
		Well, that obviously had not happened because there would not then have been the urgency to get those pictures out.
		So it happened sometime later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, if you had had the opportunity to ask a question of Colonel Haynes, who seemed at a loss to explain the six-year difference between 1947 and all you are now telling us about, and the beginning of the experiments in 1953 that he tried to say accounted for everything, what would you have asked the Colonel?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would have probably asked him about his credentials in time compression.
		I think that he's not certain that he has any qualifications to talk about time compression.
		And that's what he was trying to sell the press conferencer, it seemed to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Doctor, I've sort of speculated, only half in humor, that some cigar-chompan general probably had the colonel in front of him and said, son, you're going to have to go out there and do your patriotic duty.
		But, General, what do I say about six years?
		And, well, son, go out there and tell them about time compression.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		That's what we heard.
		But it's sad because it's like a lot of other things that the government seems to get into, that nobody ever wants to come and just lay it out on the table and say, here, guys, here's exactly what happened.
		And I've asked that question.
		I asked General Exxon, who was a right pad commander one time, as you know, and who flew over the wreckage when it was on the ground at Roswell as a young captain.
		And I asked him, why wouldn't President Clinton today just call in and say, here, fellas, here it is.
		Here's the real story.
		And the answer was, there's nothing politically advantageous about clearing it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what is the political advantage then we should ask ourselves to muddying the waters, which is the only thing that press conference did?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Because there was so many, because Roswell was only the tip of the iceberg.
		The problem is it would be ludicrous to just keep Roswell hidden if that's all that ever happened.
		But he was only the beginning of a very long process of which the government ultimately painted themselves in the corner 50 years ago, ultimately, and the paint is still wet.
		They don't know how to get out of it.
		It's too big.
		The labyrinth is too heavy.
		There's too much critical information at stake.
		And they don't know how the public will ultimately react to all the things.
		It isn't a simple matter of, oh, everybody will panic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, we've got to imagine, Jamie and Doctor, that after all these years, if it was, as originally stated, a weather balloon, or even as later stated, a balloon train, that by now, all of it could simply be declassified, and they could tell the story straight out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yet they still are not doing that, or not even close, or if anything, maybe moving further away from the truth.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Because it went into a heavy control situation, and all those files that the GAO couldn't find when Representative Schiff's investigation was instigated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, what percentage of those files were missing?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All of them.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nothing on Rosso.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nothing at all.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		It just never happened.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
		Now, that brings a bigger question, Mark, than if they found a few files.
		If they found a few simple files, it would have been kind of logical.
		But nobody even sad enough to put a few simple files in.
		He was so important, you wipe the flight clean.
		It all goes into a secret category.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if the people out there believe that all of the files would disappear, or conversely, that there never were any files, and I think we know better than that, with an incident of this magnitude, there would be many, many reports generated.
		There's no question about that.
		And if you don't believe that, I've got a bridge for you because I, too, was in the more modern Air Force.
		And everything was done agonizingly, repetitively, carefully, and everything is documented, things you wouldn't even imagine need to be documented or documented.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And you involved this many generals.
		You'd have to have files.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		You know that on every base, there's a historical officer, and his sole job is to keep the history of what went on at the base.
		He collects the morning reports and makes it consolidated and all of that sort of thing.
		And from what I've read, at Roswell, they have all the years that Roswell was open, except for 1947.
		And it has mysteriously disappeared.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, I spoke to General Exxon about the whole situation, and I asked him point blank something other researchers hadn't done, again, and that was other researchers had said that Exxon didn't mention MJ-12, so therefore MJ-12 didn't exist.
		But they didn't ask the question.
		The question begged to be asked.
		So I asked General Exxon, I said, General Exxon, have you ever heard of MJ-12?
		And he was silent for a moment, and he said, yes, I have.
		That's the group that controls all the UFO material.
		And I said, well, now you had met Bon Johnson, sir.
		And I said, no, have you seen those pictures before, the ones that were in the newspaper?
		And he said, yes, I have.
		And then he said to me, which kind of shocked me, he said, have you seen the other pictures of the closer shots of the stuff on the ground at Roswell?
		And I hesitate, I said, what pictures?
		No, sir, I haven't.
		Where are these pictures?
		He said, well, I saw them at the War College in the 50s.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And he claimed to me that he had seen my pictures at the War College, too, which kind of surprised me, I guess.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		So I guess they studied weather balloons at the War College.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Johnson, were you the only one there at that point, the only reporter, at least when you were there taking photographs?
		Was there anybody waiting?
		Were there other?
		No, others.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		There were no other civilians.
		There were no other military photographers at that point.
		Now, I don't know who could have been there earlier.
		I know if anybody there earlier could not have taken any pictures because I essentially unrolled the stuff and laid it out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any sense of how long a period of time there was between when it arrived and it arrived before you got there and when you got there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much time went by?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I had a feeling it had been there probably less than a half hour.
		The general hadn't even gotten back to see it, and it was a brand new thing.
		They just sort of partially unrolled this one roll.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		You know, if the Associate Press is correct, and I have every reason to believe they were, if the flight left Roswell at 10 a.m. and it was roughly an hour and a half flight, an hour time difference to Fort Worth, that means that Marcel had been there for some period of time, but obviously they would have had him off debriefing him.
		And so the general and or the intelligence officer, whoever would have been debriefing him so they could report to General Vandenberg.
		They could have had other parts of the material that the general was looking at in another room and this innocuous bunch of stuff for the press so that they could continue with their thing.
		We're the top dog.
		It's not anything to be fearful of, and we're in control.
		And they were cooperating to that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, there would be a few things that I would imagine that you would have asked as a reporter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For example, you probably would have asked the general, what is this stuff?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I did.
		And as Jamie reported correctly, he said he did not know.
		And I had the feeling that he was seeing this.
		He was interested.
		He picked it up and examined it like he was curious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A genuine interest.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		This was not posed for him.
		He was, I'm convinced now and was at the time that he was seeing it for the first time.
		He was handling it for the first time.
		He didn't even take his hat off.
		When you look at the pictures, he was still wearing his hat and his Class A uniform in his own office.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Blonde, you said something the other day.
		It was about if this was a weather balloon, how was your reaction to something?
		What did you think that something about would General Ramey have had his picture taken with a weather balloon?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, I think that he would have resigned before he got into any kind of Mickey Mouse thing like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He would have resigned?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And have his picture taken with a weather balloon?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		He would not have done that, knowing that he would have probably been made a fool of later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yet, Doctor, I'll tell you what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a break here, so can both of you hold on?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, done deal.
		Jamie Chanderaya and Jaybon Johnson, who actually was in General Ramey's office talking with the general and taking photographs of the material that had just been flown in from Roswell.
		Again, in 1947, not 1953.
		The story will continue.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
unidentified		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening from the high desert.
		I am here, and I have two guests.
		Guest one is Jamie Shanderea.
		He is a 30-year investigative journalist who's been looking into what occurred at Roswell.
		We have been weaving the story for you and will continue to do so.
		I have a second guest.
		He is J. Bond Johnson, Dr. Johnson, who, shortly after that fatal explosion, July 2nd, over Roswell, working for the Star-Telegraph in Texas, went and was assigned to go take pictures of the debris that had just been flown in from Roswell.
		And in fact, did that, Went to General Ramey's office, not a hangar, where all of this material was laid out on the floor.
		He took those photographs and then took them back to the Star Telegraph and had them developed.
		And there was a machine waiting there, which then, of course, transmitted them immediately nationwide, I presume to all the newspapers for the story that was then front page news just about every day.
		Air Force recovers crashed flying disc.
		We'll pick the story up with somebody who was really there in a moment.
		That's back in 1947, by the way, not 1953.
		Now, let me talk to you for a second about the World Wide Web.
		On my website, we have a very unique thing going called the Live Web Cam.
		And you can actually see me sitting here doing the program.
		However, at the moment, earlier today, by request, several people requested that I do it.
		My son was here, so I opened up the live cam this afternoon and took a photo, you know, a quick snap with my son in the picture, and that's what's up there right now.
		And I'll leave it up there for about another half hour or hour, and then I will bring back the live cam.
		That's just one little piece of technology that is now on the web.
		The web is a growing, doubling every few months resource of material that is so large, so comprehensive, that it puts any, remember the old dictionary salesman, come to your house, Chris, sell you a set of dictionaries.
		This puts all of that to shame.
		Three, the Sea Crane Company, back now, to Jamie Chanderia and to Dr. Bon Johnson.
		Are you both there?
		Yes, I'm here.
		All right, good.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, Art, you're real close on my last name.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It's Chandere.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Chandere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chandereay.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Is it Chanderea?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, Chandere.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Chandere.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Chandere.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry about that.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, no problems.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Doctor.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Johnson is easier to print out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, since you were there in the general's office, we are being joined by some new radio stations at this hour.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were there in the general's office.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You took the photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You took them back to the star, had them developed.
		They had a machine.
		They sent them out then nationwide, and I presume they appeared the next day in newspapers nationwide.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But they appeared with the cover story.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're now 71 years old, right?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's somebody who's written a very nasty little facts, and it reads as follows, and I'm going to read it to you just so you can respond to it.
		Art, how's this for a conspiracy?
		People in their 70s realize in their aged wisdom that Social Security will not support them for much longer.
		So his words, old Codgers, start confessing secrets of Roswell, knowing full well the youngsters will glom on to such hoaxes and will offer them spots on TV, radio talk shows, probably with lucrative results.
		Charlie in Houston.
		Now, let me say you're not getting one penny for appearing on my program.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Nor have I from anybody else.
		To this moment, I haven't made a dime out of this beyond my regular salary on the Star Telegram.
		So that was all, you know, whatever has happened.
		I've not made a nickel out of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What today motivates you to still come forward and talk about what really happened?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why are you doing it?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I haven't really come forward.
		I haven't volunteered anywhere.
		I've waited for people to call me, and I might say that over the years now, a number of reporters and writers, researchers have contacted me, spent a lot of time asking me detailed questions.
		But Jamie Ashandaray is the most thorough and meticulous researcher that has contacted me.
		So you've got the best one of the ones that I know about on your program tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, there's been a lot of press that have interviewed you.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aren't you curious why some of these people who know exactly what you did and when you did it were not at that press conference querying Colonel Haynes?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I have no knowledge of that.
		I don't know how the selection came, who invited the media that were there.
		I don't know what the criteria, you know, I have no knowledge.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there's another little factor that sneaks its ugly head in here, and that is that some of the people that talk to Bond have determined to their own guesswork and ambiguous nature of questions that Bond actually wrote the cover story that appeared in the paper with the pictures.
		Now, there are certain researchers that say that Bond indeed, that General Raimi said to Bond, oh, this is balsa wood and aluminum foil and burned rubber.
		Now, Bond never said that, and Raimi never said that to him.
		That was part of the cover story that came out on the 9th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and just prior to the end of the hour, Dr. Johnson said that he believed that General Raimi would have resigned rather than have his picture taken with a weather balloon.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Correct, Doctor?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, to engage in subterfuge to that degree.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		In his own office, I just cannot conceive of that happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you imagine the general would have known a weather balloon when he saw it?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can remember being at the various bases where I was stationed during World War II, and it was a common thing.
		We didn't have the radar and satellites and all that, of course, in those days.
		And I can remember, like, early in the morning seeing a balloon go up.
		And at one time I was stationed, my barracks were right across the street from the weather Observatory and they would have several balloons go up in the day.
		And as they go up, they get bigger, you know, as the air gets thinner and so forth.
		So that was a common thing.
		And certainly every pilot, as General Ramey was, would know what a weather balloon was and the attachments that they hooked to it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's exactly what General DuBose, who was in 1947, the colonel and chief of staff, and I asked him very specifically, I said, you say this is not a weather balloon, but do you have any experience with weather balloons?
		He says, absolutely.
		We used them during the war.
		We used them for vectoring, for targets, for everything.
		I said, did General Ramey?
		Did he have experience?
		He says, of course, we flew missions together.
		We all had extensive experience with weather balloons.
		This was not a weather balloon, he emphasized.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, just as Major Marcel said as well.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And he said it in several sworn testimonies and on film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it wasn't a weather balloon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was not part of a weather balloon train or a balloon train.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		A radar reflector train or anything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything of that sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's clear, and you're clear about that, Dr. Johnson.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I think there's no doubt in anybody's mind.
		The other thing is an interesting thing.
		Here was this material that was obviously burned.
		Yet, in a weather balloon that we used, we used helium, and it does not burn.
		So there would have been nothing to ignite a wreckage coming down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good point.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		An absolutely perfect point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did General Ramey have anything to say or have any knowledge that he imparted to you about the origin of the material?
		In other words, where it had been found?
		Was there any background that you got?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I doubt if he even was that brief.
		I think he was just coming into it.
		I think that, you know, when, as I, my recollection or my reconstruction of this whole thing is that when Marcel went out and as a major, gathered some of this up, he goes into his boss, the colonel, the commander at Roswell, and he doesn't know what to do with it, so he calls up his boss, General Ramey, and gives him a report.
		And General Raimi says, well, bring it down here and let me look at it.
		That would be the logical kind of thing.
		And then General Raimi gets on the horn and calls Washington and says, what am I supposed to do with this?
		That's my read on the whole sequence of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you write the story?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't, because I did not have the information that was contained in the story at that time.
		It had not been released.
		When I went home, I was working overtime the time I got through with the picture, so I ducked out pretty quickly.
		And I had a stack of phone calls when I got back to the office from all of the photo services, and everybody, of course, wants an exclusive photograph.
		Well, that was pretty frustrating because I didn't have any exclusive photographs.
		I didn't take that many, and there was nothing novel about the various parts of it.
		So I got, as soon as I took care of those calls, then I went home, and the announcement had not been made, and I didn't even know about it until I picked up the paper the next morning.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's a very interesting thing that happens here, Arden.
		Certain researchers are saying that Bond did write that story, and he's changed his story.
		They say he wrote that, but now he's saying he didn't write that.
		So if you stood somebody there and he's saying that, and Bond's saying, no, he didn't write it, how could you prove who's telling the truth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By having Dr. Johnson on the air.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But there's an even more finite way to tell the truth.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And that is we can prove categorically that Bond did not write the story on July 9th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you take the front page of the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
		You look at every article on there, and every single one, except for one article, has a byline.
		Now, bylines are as in radio credits, as in movies, credits, as in anything.
		Byline is extremely important.
		It's your meal ticket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And a front page story is even a bigger meal ticket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You betcha.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It's the same as a director that has a blockbuster is better than having three that didn't do so well.
		All right, so if Bond had written that story, there would have been his byline on it.
		But there is no byline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there attribution for the photograph?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your name was attached to the bottom of the photograph or something.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And when it was transmitted on the wire photo, we now have copies, and I have been sent copies of these pictures with the cutline still attached, and I get credit line on all of them as the photographer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And who had the byline for the story itself?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nobody.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		There was none at all.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		No byline.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, here's the curious thing about that.
		No byline.
		Not even Fort Worth Star Telegram byline.
		Nothing at all.
		And that same article.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I don't think I've ever seen that.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Word for word, that same article shows up in other newspapers with no attribution to the Fort Worth Star Telegram, no attribution to Bon Johnson, none at all.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, there was a category that happened like that, and that was a military release.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the hand that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Star certainly wasn't going to put their name to it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		So what happened was Bond goes home, the wind goes out of the sails, the military scrambles immediately.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		They put together this press story, they hand-deliver it to the Star Telegram, and they send it out on the wire.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, how do you know that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, because that exact story, word for word, paragraphs in some cases are in articles all over the country.
		Now, as we all know today, when you watch television, you're watching CBS, and they're doing a sports show, and they need to show a baseball game that NBC covered, it says, courtesy of NBC.
		Now, that is a courtesy, but it's a, by God, you better do it because we'll sue you if you use our material.
		But the same thing in the press business.
		If you use an article that's generated by the Fort Worth Star Telegram, then you have to give attribution to the Fort Worth Star Telegram.
		That's their life and blood.
		That gives them the recognition and stature within the media.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		So, with no attribution in any paper, And chunks of that article and the entire article in total appear in newspapers all over the country.
		There's only one solution.
		It was the military release.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Johnson, when you saw the article, did you go back to your employers at the Fort Worth Star Telegram and ask them about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did that even occur to you?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		I just took it that, well, they've explained it, and it was a dead story in my mind.
		It didn't even occur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But weren't you curious about who wrote it?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, that would be, I assumed, you see, I was the military reporter for the paper, and I got handouts from all the different branches and bases, and we never gave a byline to a military writer, to a military press release.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Was that the only exception to the lack of a byline?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, there were other stories where you don't get bylines.
		But front-page stories like that, had I written a story, it certainly would have merited a byline and would have gotten it as I did for the photocredit.
		But there was none on that.
		Now, also in the Roswell paper, I've seen the reproductions of that, and there's no byline on the stories out of the Roswell paper about this.
		So again, that would indicate that those were military handouts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems to me this is an evidence trail that we could follow if there are still alive some of the editors who would have received these handouts or this news that they were apparently told to print.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And same deal in Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't we go and find some newspaper people and say, hey, look, where did you get the story?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Sure, I think.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you'd find the same thing as Bond's telling you right now.
		They'd say, well, gee, you know, there's no byline.
		It's a military story.
		The only solution is the military gave us that story.
		Since it's public domain, we don't have to credit anybody.
		That's no AP line.
		There's nothing.
		There's no attribution, no byline at all.
		And it's the only one on the front page of this Fort Worth Star Telegram.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you now about the nature of the story itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What, Jamie, or Dr. Johnson, did that story say with your photographs?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, the story says that this is a...
		As the story started to trickle out, the general says it's some kind of a weather gadget.
		Well, they finally decided to call it a certain type of a weather balloon.
		And then what they did was, remember out of that office, there were seven pictures taken.
		In the sequence of pictures, the last picture is of a warrant officer, Irving Newton.
		So in the sequence of pictures, you have two of General Ramey.
		It would have been as speed graphic as Bond said he had.
		So he puts the plate in, he shoots a picture of the general, pulls the plate out, turns it over, takes it back in, shoots another picture.
		That's two of the general.
		Then, as a courtesy, he has the chief of staff, Colonel DeBose, join him in the picture, widens the shot a little bit, shoots one of the two of them, pulls the plate out, turns it over, shoots another one.
		So same basic setup.
		Then, there are two pictures of Jesse Marcel, Major Marcel, in exact same position.
		So we assume then that was shot the same way.
		Then there's one picture that we've been able to find of Irving Newton.
		Now that gives us a new player in the deck here.
		We know what General Ramey said to his boss.
		We know what he said to Bon Johnson.
		He said, we don't know what this is.
		It's a foil-like material, but we don't know what it is.
		We know what General DeBose said.
		He was then Colonel Chief of Staff.
		He said, this was not, categorically not, a weather balloon.
		We didn't put one in that room.
		One did not come in from Roswell.
		We know what Jesse Marcel said.
		This is not a weather balloon.
		This is the real stuff.
		We know what Bon Johnson said.
		But Irving Newton becomes the odd duck in the crowd.
		He's ordered off of his post and to come in and tell the press what a weather balloon was like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we'll pick it up on that point after the bottom of the hour, and that's where we are right now.
		So what you're hearing is the story of what really did occur, or at least a portion of what really did occur, in 1947, not 1953.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you tune in to Coast to Coast AM, you never know what might happen, but then again, neither do I, even though I'm Ardell, host of the program.
unidentified		You see, I don't screen calls.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I like to fly by the seat of my pants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When I pick up the phone, the caller's on the air.
		If you like that sort of unplanned, impromptu excitement, join me right here from Coast to Coast AM.
		I'm Art Bell, host of a show called Dreams.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		The title does not ordinarily refer to the place you go when you fall asleep on Sunday, July 6th.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		The name of the show is particularly appropriate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Guests are going to be Pat and Jim Trajan, the Dream Team.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Select your dreams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Find out what's really going on in your subconscious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can hear Dreamland right here.
unidentified		Dreamland Dreamland right
		here.
		Dreamland right here.
		Call our spell toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me, do you think truth matters?
		Does it matter to you?
		Does it matter less and less or more and more after 50 years?
		Jamie Chandere is my guest.
		He's an investigative journalist, has been so for about 30 years, working very hard on Roswell.
		Also with me, Dr. J. Bond Johnson, who was the photographer then for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and took pictures of the materials that had been flown from Roswell to Fort Worth.
		And then, I guess, ultimately on to Wright Pat.
		I will get back to them in a moment.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Five.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's 1-800-2325-665.
		You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
		Tell them Art Bell sent you.
		Back to my guest now.
		And Jamie, are you there?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Johnson.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, is there any way in the world that you could have written that story and it somehow has time compressed or, you know, somehow slipped out of your mind?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		There was no reason for me to write this story because I did not even have the information.
		When I left, it was still a live story.
		In other words, the cover-up story had not been issued, and so I would not have had that information.
		That came sometime later.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Bud, let me ask you a question here.
		If you'd walked in that office and they said it was a weather bloom, would you have shot a picture?
		No.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And I certainly wouldn't have rushed back to the office.
		I wouldn't have been met by this hubbub of folks from Dallas who'd come over and were frantic to get the pictures wet so they could send them out because it would have made no sense.
		It was a dead story then as soon as they put the cover story out.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		See, so the big question here comes now is why did they suddenly slam the door on this?
		Why did they lock that door?
		And what General DuBose told me is that General Clements McMullen called him and told him to put out the cover story.
		Get everybody out of that office and get them out now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's who you're saying ordered the cover story?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		General Clements McMullen, who was then acting director of the Strategic Air Command from Washington by telephone, ordered General DuBose, who was then Colonel DuBose's chief of staff, to General Raimi, who was the 8th Army Air Force's commanding general.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He told him, put out the cover story, shut the door of that office now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jamie, how do you know that to be true?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Because that's exactly what he told me happened.
		Now, here's what he said happened.
		He said, and then General McMullen said, you pick up every piece of stuff in that office, on the floor in Ramey's office.
		You put it in a sealed container.
		You lock it to the wrist of a courier you trust.
		He said, and I chose Colonel Al Clark, who is the base commander at Carswell there in Fort Worth.
		He says, and I escorted him to a B-26, and I sent him to Washington with this material to meet General McMullen.
		Now, in the Fort Worth, not the Fort Worth, in the Dallas Morning Newspaper, the intelligence officer from Carswell, there in Fort Worth, was telling a reporter at around 5.30, according to the article, when asked, where is this stuff now?
		He said, well, it's locked in the general's office, and it's just a weather balloon.
		Well, that's patently absurd.
		Why would you lock the door to the office if it's a weather balloon?
		The point is, they locked that office because they removed all that material, which confirms what General DeBose was saying, and sent it off to Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the order came down prior to it being sent to Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was given to a courier, and that is the moment the cover-up began.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That is the moment the cover-up began.
		Now, the question comes down in why?
		Why is it cooperating?
		Why, all of a sudden, at approximately 6 o'clock Fort Worth time, why did the shroud of secrecy descend on them?
		And the answer is simple, because the second team over in Roswell, concurrent with Bonds in there shooting those pictures, he leaves.
		Word comes down the line, oh my God, we found the main part of the craft, their bodies.
		And in Washington, they go nuts, and they say, shut it down, and shut it down now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And only that, or something of that magnitude, could account for that kind of curtain coming down, not the fact that somebody had, well, already I'm beginning to feed the Air Force story because the balloon trains were not around in 1947.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, they were around.
		And that's what that six-pound paper was saying earlier, that the balloon trains were around in 1947.
		What the later press conference was trying to answer all this business about bodies and burn victims and all of that kind of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Johnson, were you at that time hearing any stories that early about bodies, about crafts, all the rest of it?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, there was no hint at that time about any bodies.
		In any articles that I've read, certainly nobody said anything to me about bodies.
		I'm sure, I'm convinced now, that they had not discovered the bodies at the time that I was there taking the pictures.
		I think that that came a short time later, and I agree with Jamie as to the dramatic change in the attitude of the Air Corps people.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		See, what happens when you have something like a real signpost in the case, and again, this segment going to Fort Worth is the only finite timeline, and you can trace it forward and you can take it backward.
		When you take it backward, what you do is you realize there couldn't have been bodies found on the 4th of July, as some researchers are saying that when they change the dates and switch all these different things around.
		Those things become patently absurd because that would require that Jesse Marcel didn't know that the entire base was called on command to go out and retrieve craft and bodies, and he was still playing around with a rancher that had debris.
		None of this press conference would have ever happened.
		It wasn't really even a press conference.
		It was a press announcement, and they were hoping press to Come in and take pictures.
		They did that deliberately to show that they, the military and the government, could satisfy the public's need for protection, that they were in control.
		It was a psychological ploy because they found this anomalous debris, this innocuous stuff.
		Nobody knew what it was, but there was nothing dangerous.
		There's no big power supplies, there's no weapons, there's no bodies, nothing to be worried about because this was apparently blowout from an explosion above the ground.
		As described by people who saw the crash site with a huge gouge in the ground, the thing apparently blew out above the ground, blew this innocuous debris out of the craft.
		It hit the ground and gouged and came down a few miles away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, again, aside from the debris photographed in General Ramey's office by Dr. Johnson, how much more debris, quantity-wise, had been collected?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		According to Major Marcel, the belly of a B-29 was quite full of debris.
		They had taken apparently everything that was brought back at the point, everything that they had in the two vehicles, certainly, was that morning sent over.
		So he had the, you know, he had I-beams, he had everything.
		So everything he could stuff in a .42 Buick and everything that could be put in a Jeep carry all was in the belly of that plane waiting for further transfer.
		And there's another point here.
		One of the things that the military is very good at is you never go to higher command unless you're really sure that you're not stepping out of line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nobody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because your mother.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Nobody.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, get their tail fried.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And in this case, you've got a major who has to go back to his own colonel, the base commander, and show him what he's got.
		That colonel then goes to his commanding general, who then goes to his commanding general in Washington, and everybody gets in the picture.
		And in addition to General Ramey, the 8th Army Air Force's commanding general, telling General Vandenberg he didn't know what it was, in that same article it indicates they've also notified the FBI in Dallas.
		And the FBI is going to come in and look at this material if it can get there before the plane leaves for Wright Field.
		Now, I'm sorry, but you just don't go to that effort.
		You would never go to an outside agency.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way in Dr. Johnson's photographs that the material depicted can be positively identified as what the Air Force is calling a balloon train?
unidentified		No.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, here's the kind of analogy I'll give you.
		If I laid down on the floor and you, Ordbell, stood over me, and your wife stood there, and Bon Johnson stood there, and somebody took a picture, you could argue with experts till hell froze over.
		From morticians saying, well, the guy's dead.
		From actor saying, no, no, no, he's acting.
		When somebody else says, no, no, no, he's fainted.
		I've seen people that faint before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		The only people that could tell you are the people who stood there in that room and knew exactly the circumstances that went on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have one of them here, Dr. Johnson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, doctor, would you, personally, have been familiar with a balloon or a portion of something that would have been like a balloon, a balloon train, whatever they want to call it?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, I would not have been close to it.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I saw them flying over the bases as the weather balloon that the meteorologist would send out.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		But, Doctor, you would not have known.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		No, I would not have known.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, Bob, if as all descriptions of these radar reflectors, either simple foil or paperback foil, would you have been familiar with foil and or paperback foil?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		There's some interesting things.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		When you go back and read the articles that were published the next day, when they described the wreckage, they describe it as covering about a half mile by a mile.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's a lot of wreckage.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		A winter balloon or even multiple wouldn't cover that kind of a space.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		This would be something that you would expect like the 747 that crashed in Scotland that would cover that kind of a terrain.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Charles Moore, who was involved in the mobile balloon projects, which were supposedly secret at that time, has made the statement that they think this was, and they have the number of the specific flights, that they had launched that balloon on or about July 2nd.
		But the problem is this.
		He claims, and all records show, there was an electrical storm going on.
		He claims that the balloons were already inflated, but the storm came up, so it destroyed their ability to run the tests that they were running.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where were these balloons to be?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I think they were coming out of white sands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		White sands.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, so what he's saying is this.
		And follow this, and you'll see the fallacy in what the statement says.
		He says, because the balloons were already inflated, they couldn't keep the balloons.
		You can't, you know, re-inflate them, you can't reuse them.
		So they went ahead and launched the balloons.
		Now, I can accept that as far as that goes.
		The problem is, he's indicating then they would have sent up all the hardware also.
		No, I'm sorry.
		Makes no sense at all.
		Everybody had to deal with very tight budgets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At that point, so you were dealing with an aborted mission.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		An aborted mission cut all the gear off of those balloons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		I understand.
		So it would have been only the balloons.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And the thing is, in those photographs, there's no inflatable material.
		There's no neoprene, there's no nothing there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, reflecting back now after all these years since you were there, is there anything else you can tell us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything else you remember that would be helpful or that when you recall hearing today's explanations angers you or you want to say?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I'm sad again that the number that of the researchers, I have to agree partly with the gentleman that sent you the facts a little while ago, in that some people have exploited these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		There are people who've come up with a theory and so it's a new angle.
		They can publish another book or another article or whatever.
		And so they rush in with that theory.
		And I've had people put words in my mouth and say, now this is what happened.
		And they quote me when I didn't say that.
		And that offends me in hindsight.
		And then I go, I go over to Barnes and Noble and look at the proliferating number of UFO publications, books there.
		They all say the same thing.
		They pick up what starts out as a rumor or a theory, then it becomes a rumor, and then it becomes fact.
		And then other people will pick it up and put it in the next book.
		They don't go back and check to see whether it was correct in the beginning.
		So history gets remade is what happens by these people.
		So that's how.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you are constantly misquoted.
		Yes.
		When did the story begin, Doctor?
		Or when did the press begin to come to you about and suggest that you had written the story?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Nobody ever asked me that directly.
		I have seen it in print, but nobody ever asked me whether I wrote the story or not.
		They just went ahead and assumed that.
		Never even asked me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		This is a very, very important point, because then obviously the origin of this story is a complete mystery.
		And as you have both pointed out, it was very unlikely that a story would be written without a byline that appeared on the front page of why it would have been a very proud moment for any reporter that had written a story that would be then rewritten all around the country.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And so that didn't happen.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		See, if it was even generated by anybody at Fort Worth Star Telegram, the Fort Worth Star Telegram would have taken credit and then insisted on attribution in other printings.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And there's no attribution to that exact same article and chunks of that article all over the country.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Again, I harken back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying balloon trains were in use in 1947, but Colonel Haynes seemed to suggest that the dummies, the other more exotic things that were shown being launched in film in this news conference did not even begin until 1953, or am I getting that wrong?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, you're getting that absolutely right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Not only that, if you remember in the video they put together, you remember those disc-like objects that were coming down?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Those are 1972 from the Viking Project.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		What did that have been?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1972?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		We saw a mix of footage there from 56 through 72.
		I don't even think there was anything shown there from 53.
		And the dummies clearly in those videos were six feet tall.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But when Colonel Weaver was quoted as the fact that this story was coming out, he claimed that those dummies were three to four feet in height, and that's why the mistake was made, which is, again, patently absurd.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But you see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Jamie, we will continue with you after the top of the hour.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		But Dr. Johnson, I think we're going to be finishing with you here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All I want to say to you is this.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, fortunately, you are still alive, to tell us about the misquotes and about what didn't happen and about what really did happen.
		After you are gone, short of the record we're establishing right now, they will begin to say anything they want and get away with it, of course.
		That's fair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, do you feel a need beyond what you're doing right now to record for history what really did happen?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, obviously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The story is not retold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		History is not, again, rewritten.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Again, Jamie has written the most accurate stories because he spent the most time and has detailed it out and has written the most accurate interviews of me, of any of the other reporters.
		So his articles are out there.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I truly, Doctor, want to thank you for staying up this late and being with us and for telling us what really did happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a very, very valuable couple of hours or so with you.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		It's my pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, thank you.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Jamie, when we get back, I would like, if I could, to open the phone lines and allow the audience to begin asking questions.
		Because we are going to begin to begin to, frankly, move off into areas that now go way past what you have just heard and begin to talk about the actual crash of the craft.
		And that's where we're going to pick all this up when we continue with Jamie Chandray.
		And I hope I'm beginning to get that correct.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you listen carefully, we will take your breath away.
		She sings about a secret place in time.
		A secret place in time.
		That kind of defines Roswell in 1947, doesn't it?
		A secret.
		Time, Roswell, 1947.
		Very secret.
		My guest is Jamie Chanderay.
		I think I'm finally getting his name down.
		And with us for the last couple hours has been Bon Johnson.
		Bon Johnson was the photographer who took the pictures of the debris in General Ramey's office.
		He, at that time, was a reporter for the Fort Worth Star.
		And so that history doesn't get mixed up, we've spent a couple of hours detailing what really did happen.
		In a moment, the story continues to, if you will excuse the grab of the book title, a day or two after Roswell.
		888-G-O-L-B-K-R-C.
		All right, Jamie Chanderet is an investigative journalist.
		He is on his way now to Roswell, has made a stop in Southern California.
		That's where he is now.
		And by tomorrow, Jamie, I take it you'll be in Roswell.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's try and pick up the story now and develop it from the doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, we know we've laid out what happened.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right, now there's still one individual that was in that room that we haven't accounted for yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would be.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That would be the low man on the totem pole.
		He was a warrant officer and he was a weather officer.
		And he was insinuated into the picture at the point of the cover story.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Insinuated?
unidentified		Insinuated.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		In other words, he had no reason to be there or anything else.
		But he was on the late shift, meaning that the other personnel had gone home.
		He was alone at the weather station when he got a call from General Ramey himself ordering him to abandon his post, come over to the office, and tell the people there how weather balloons function.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, our Is he alive?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I think he's in Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Texas.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, the problem with this man, unfortunately, and I'm sure he's really a very nice man, but he is, like the majority of people, he's not a good witness.
		And what do I mean by that?
		His story changes.
		His story changes as he hears things.
		It kind of fits into the picture, and his story expands, and it changes.
		Only one aspect of his story remained the same.
		He was originally interviewed in 1979, I believe it was, by Bill Moore in preparation for the book, The Roswell Incident.
		At that time, he told a story that the general ordered him to leave his post.
		He said, but general, I'm here alone.
		He says, get your ass over here now.
		It was a direct quote, and that's always been the same quote.
		And I'm sure he would never forget the general ordering him off his post.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you wouldn't forget it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But there would have to be something very extreme for the general to do that.
		It wouldn't be simply to get him over to identify a weather balloon.
		But they wanted a low man to come in and kind of burst the bubble and tell people how a weather balloon functions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They wanted cover.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And they wanted the cover.
		They wanted an extreme measure now.
		So they have him come over, saying that, you know, something's been found, and they just want him to tell the press how a weather balloon functions.
		He stands there, tells them how the Rowland Fond radar reflector works off the balloons, and then he was ushered into General Raimi's office.
		A picture was shot of him with the same debris, and he was sent back to his post.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so he got to see the debris.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And since he was a weather guy, he would know a weather balloon perhaps even better than the general or anybody else.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but here's the problem.
		Today he's saying it was Mylar in that room, that Jesse Marcel was in the room, and they were in a big argument as to whether this was a flying saucer or not, and that Marcel was showing him stuff with writing on it, and that Marcel was saying this was alien stuff, and the little green men had written it, and he was saying, no, no, no, it's Japanese writing, and so forth.
		I said, no, excuse me, maybe I'm confused here.
		You're saying that you and Jesse Marcel were arguing in that room about flying saucers?
		He's, oh, yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you don't buy the rest of the story.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Here's the problem.
		In 1979, he said he never met Jesse Marcel.
		And Jesse Marcel, in every interview he ever had, he said he was never allowed to talk to anybody at the bait other than his debriefers.
		That was it.
unidentified		Okay.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And when his picture was taken, he said the Fargo was only allowed in the room far enough to take the picture, not to touch anything.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He couldn't ask Marcel a question, and the Fargo had to leave the room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you've got a problem with that portion.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		You know, unfortunately, Irving Newton's name, he has an incredible bias against the little green men and the whole thing.
		Of course, there was no Mylar in 1947.
		We weren't buying anything from the Japanese.
		And included, there could not have been a confrontation in that room at the point of cover-up.
		That's the last thing in the world that the Raimi or any others would have told us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then we'll leave that alone at this point, and we'll move to what you know about the day after, or the day after the day after Roswell.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, so right at that point, at roughly 6 o'clock, bodies and that whole thing are noted doodly and with great...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, at a different point, how far from the debris site are we talking about now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The original debris site.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Here's the interesting thing.
		I had received the MJ-12 documents in 1984, in December of 1984.
		And Bill Moore and I researched those things.
		We did not go public with them.
		We didn't know if we had a hoax on our hands.
		We didn't know if somebody was setting us up.
		We didn't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		We had to examine these things as thoroughly as we possibly could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like receiving the Pentagon Papers or something.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Or Hitler diaries or whatever.
		You just don't go out and say, whoa, look what I've got.
		We researched that for two and a half years.
		That's how cautious we were.
		We followed every nitty detail.
		We followed phone records, dates, everything.
		Everything you could imagine.
		And then we decided we needed more help.
		And we had given some of the stuff to Stan Friedman to do a parallel examination going on at the same time.
		But all the while we're trying to stay very tight to the chest because we didn't want to begin circulating our own information out there and feeding ourselves our own information.
		We needed to find out: did anybody else have this kind of stuff?
		You know, all of those kind of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true, you put it out and it comes back to you in a different form and it seems to confirm exactly.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		If you, you know, you tell two friends and then they tell two friends, and pretty soon tell me, oh, gee, I heard this and I heard it from this guy, and I think it confirms, but it doesn't confirm anything.
		You're just feeding yourself your own stuff.
		So there are very legitimate reasons for not telling what you've got while you try to examine this.
		Now, one of the things I was looking for, and we were developing even more and more sources, this one initial source that we had in the beginning inside the intelligence community, they began to grow.
		And more and more individuals were feeding us information, but they seemed to get the same information loop.
		All of them, high-level, all of them we could access in their agencies.
		We knew who they were.
		These were not anonymous people to us.
		Our agreements with them were we keep their names confidential, wherein the whole concept of the aviary grew.
		So we gave them bird code names.
		And the reason for that is we're talking on the telephone.
		We're talking about a certain person.
		We didn't want to use that name even on the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you are the one who originated the whole bird code name aviary thing?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Just to protect your sources.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Protect their sources.
		All right, that clears that up.
		And I've heard all of the other stories.
		I've seen stuff on the internet about it and everything else.
		Nobody knows who the sources are.
		There's only one or two people within that aviary who have made their identities public, and we're in agreement that that's okay to do that.
		So while that's going on, I was always looking for some parallel way outside of testimony of key individuals who have every reason to follow the trail that they're pointing you to.
		But I was looking for some way to validate these documents outside of that kind of testimony.
		Outside of this constant strain of trying to dissect where is the disinformation, what can we validate, and that slogging process that you have to go through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Journalism.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Journalism, and hardcore journalism.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		You can't simply take an assumption and go out and just find something that proves your assumption and forget everything else.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you can today.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, too many people, unfortunately, do.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that seems to be the norm.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, you read some of these books, and they start off with a paragraph that says that, well, we think he was talking about this, and then two paragraphs later, the we think turns into a hard fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jamie, I've got to stop you, and I've got to tell you, I've got personal experience in this area with regard to the entire Hillbop incident, and I watched the national press at work, and it's sickening.
		In other words, the national press today decides, and I can't tell you what the genesis of that decision is, but they decide they will tell a story in a certain way.
		And God help anybody who gets in the way or tries to get in the way of their telling of that story in that way with facts.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		They simply ignore them and they go right ahead and tell it the way they want to tell it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and unfortunately, it becomes like a group mentality.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Once one starts in a direction, then they all flock in that same direction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this is something I know personally from a couple of recent incidences.
		It's a very, very sad thing.
		But that is not the way you proceeded to investigate.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I can't do it.
		If I approach a situation, what has to happen for me, for it to work for me, is if it's an individual I'm talking with, I have to, first of all, qualify the individual.
		And it's not exactly sufficient to say, well, he was there at the right place at the right time.
		You have to try to get a few more things factored in.
		And sometimes it's very difficult to do.
		But secondly, then you have to qualify the statements being made.
		You know, the problem was like with General DeBose, people went and talked to him.
		And like he said to me subsequently, he said, I said, General, those were rambling recollections when you were talking to these other people, weren't they?
		He says, well, yes, that's exactly what they were.
		I didn't have anything to focus.
		I had never really gone through the whole story.
		I said, had you ever told this whole story?
		He says, no, I'd never told this whole story before until you thought it was the pictures.
		That jogged my memory.
		Well, you know, if a person goes on in a court case or whatever, they're allowed to have diaries and everything so they can focus their attention and memories to exactly the timeframes and what was going on.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And it's only fair since on the table already are these pictures that were taken in that office.
		What do we want to know?
		We want to know what's in the pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Usually the attorney will say, let me refresh your memory.
unidentified		Precisely.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Or do you need to put a photograph or whatever?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, or do you need to refresh your memory, sir?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, if we may, let us return because I want to understand the chronology of what happened.
		After the doctor went back, the story went out, you're telling me then there was a second site found.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And I would like to ask you again, how far was the second site where the craft and the bodies were, supposedly, from the original crash site?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		At least two and a half miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two and a half miles.
unidentified		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now, here's what a very interesting thing happens here.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		If you take the MJ-12 documents and you look at the statements being made in there, and they reference the Roswell crash.
unidentified		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And they say that bodies were found and the wreckage was found.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		The bodies had apparently ejected from the craft.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And they were badly deteriorated due to the almost one week of exposure prior to being discovered.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One week.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And they were discovered by aerial reconnaissance.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The explosion.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Happened on July 2nd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or a Roswell occurred July 2nd.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Aerial reconnaissance is out there on July 8th.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		On July 8th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we've got six days.
unidentified		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		The almost one week.
		All right.
		So if those bodies then are being discovered by this second team, and then it's being detailed, that, you know, the first stuff that there was no, you know, no power supply, no, nothing's being discovered.
		But then the main part of the crafts and bodies are being discovered two and a half or so miles away.
		Well, Adventure wouldn't have seen it because that terrain out there.
		You can't see two and a half miles, you know, in flat land.
		So he wouldn't have seen the crafts.
		He wouldn't have seen any of those things, nor had any reason to go in that direction to look for it.
		So, what happens all of a sudden is when you take the signposts in the case.
		Now, signposts are extremely important if you can find them because it gives you something to anchor where you're going from.
		So, you had to get to that signpost and you can back up from it.
		Now, logic tells you that if at 6 o'clock in Fort Worth time, the lid, the shroud of secrecy descended for all time on the subject of UFOs, bodies, craft, and everything else, it had to be a momentous moment.
		Because I've been able to track it to the Washington Post, the New York Times, and all the rest of them.
		They say that even at a certain hour, a press blackout descended on Roswell.
		Well, now, all of the attention had already been diverted away from Roswell.
		But why would they have to put a press blackout on it at that point?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		because that's where all the activities seem to be emanating from In other words, we should assume, I would assume, that after the good doctor took his photographs and the rest of the materials got on an airplane by courier and went to Wright Pat, is that correct?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It was called Wright Field at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wright Field.
		You would think then that the activity, in other words, the cleanup would have been done, it would be all over.
		How do we document what occurred after that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's where the secrecy becomes monumental.
		That's where the roadblocks all start, is at that point.
		Now, there are a lot of different people that surface at different points and say, oh, well, we saw bodies, we saw things, we saw them, but it was on the 4th of July, and it was over here, and it was over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, can we document troop activity?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can to a certain extent.
		But the trick was, with General McMullen pulling all of the strings out of Washington, he was bypassing all kinds of things.
		A very curious thing happened.
		The photographic unit at Roswell, where it all had top secret clearances.
		Everybody in the whole photographic unit had top secret clearances.
		They were not employed in this job, and they were stunned.
		We found a photographic unit member, and he had just come back from leave from over the weekend, and there was all this buzz going on.
		In fact, it was so raucous in the photographic unit because, you know, when you belong to an elite unit, you have a top secret clearance, and everything that goes on, you guys get to photograph it.
		And all of a sudden, they're being excluded, and they couldn't deal with it.
		And at one point, the guy said that the commander of his unit called them all together and said, look, guys, we have a job to do.
		Settle down.
		Now, Bill Moore also managed to track down another individual who is part of that unit and got a very interesting story from him.
		To this day, the man is scared to death.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		What does he say?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He says that he was in the photo lab in the night shift when the MPs came in and held a gun to his hip and had him develop some film.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And then they took the film and they left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does he say was on the film?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He won't say.
		That's how scared he is.
		He says it's about that stuff out in the desert in 47, isn't it?
		When somebody came knocking on his door.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		And they held a gun to his head?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		They held a gun to his hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you still in contact with this man?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He could probably be found, but he was so frightened.
		He was unbelievably frightened.
		But there's some additional details in there, which I don't want to give out on the air at this point, because they go into part of a manuscript that's going together and we have some things we're working on in that regard.
		But those details that I'm leaving out at this moment track back precisely to the aspects of the aerial reconnaissance and everything else.
		And it gets right down to the nitty details that you have to find to validate the process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, aerial reconnaissance means pilots, crews, airplanes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Means at least one airplane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least one airplane.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And in all probability, this was piloted by Colonel Blanchard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Colonel Blanchard?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Jamie, hold on.
		We'll be right back.
		We will get to the phone shortly, but we're also trying to get to the truth.
		And this is one of the principal investigators.
		He is Jamie Chanderet.
		If you have questions, you're going to be able to come shortly.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		The day When you first Take my way I said no one Take your way You get hurt You get hurt But Take
		your way Call Artfell toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is Jamie Chanderet, an investigative journalist who's done a very, very careful, exhaustive investigation of Roswell, is my guest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He'll be back in a moment with your questions.
unidentified		Are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Telemart Bell told you to call.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		All right, back now to my guest, Jamie Chandere.
		Jamie, I've got a notice of a press conference I would like to read you here, very short.
		A press conference scheduled for 9 o'clock a.m., July 4th, 1997, at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute campus in Roswell, New Mexico is going to present the results of scientific tests performed on crash debris found near Roswell, New Mexico 50 years ago that once and for all will prove the downed vehicle was not of Earth origin.
		A research scientist from a major university involved in testing is going to be on hand to discuss the methodology and the results of the isotopic radio ratio tests, rather, I'll get that right one day, of the Roswell debris.
		Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities, big ones, and national labs will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is, this is important, manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.
		Jamie, if in fact they have this, they have the scientific reports, and you've got actual manufactured material, in other words, something functional that is made of materials, not of Earth, that they can, with a chain of evidence, link to Roswell, that sounds like the smoking gun, doesn't it?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, it sounds like at least the first step to the smoking gun.
		I can see Colonel Haynes saying, well, we don't know where they got it.
		It's, you know, it's, um, you know, every time you get your hopes up that, you know, that something is, is a major breakthrough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Um, I, I hope it all pans out exactly as, as, as it's being, And then, of course, on the fourth, Friday, we are going to know for sure, I guess, aren't we?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I hope so.
		And, you know, the next step, of course, is then the laying of that foundation.
		My approach is you have to look at an investigation like it's a crime scene.
		You've got to be able to find out who got into this area, who got out of this area, and where did everything go.
		If you can't build a solid base for making that determination, you're never going to find the perpetrator or what went on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's go to a few calls.
		And first time caller line, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		This is Roberta from Media, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		And I was out in Roswell last December.
		My uncle lives in Rio Doso, which is not far from Roswell.
		And living out there, he said he always heard the crash site was really somewhere in the Capitan Mountains.
		Have you ever heard of anything about that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, there have been a whole series of stories about different crash site areas.
		There seems to be clear evidence that there was more than one crash site.
		However, there's still a considerable amount of consternation as to where all of these different crash sites were.
		It seems clear, because I know that CIC officer Rickett, who went out there with Sheridan Cabot the next day on July 8th, he was subsequently assigned to get Dr. LaPaz from the University of New Mexico to go out there, and Dr. LaPaz determined a trajectory that's where this craft had come down.
		So what they did is they followed that trajectory into the back country and found Indians, found people in line shacks and everything else, and tried to get their stories as to what they might have or might not have seen.
		And what they did see apparently were three lights in the sky.
		And they saw one go down, then they saw another one go down, and then they don't know what happened to the other one, whether it went off into the horizon or it also went down.
		Which is very interesting.
		So, I mean, it does lend credence to more than one crash site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's a good question.
		What is your best guess right now?
		We've got a debris field, we've got an actual crash site, and how many more?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I think there was at least one.
		I don't think it's where Stanton Friedman thinks it was.
		I think it was close to the Plain de San Augustino.
		I think it was in the mountains, in the rocks, in an absolutely inaccessible area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is fairly, of course, off into the area of speculation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if it was an alien craft, is it reasonable to conclude, since the atomic bomb was at Roswell, that an alien craft would certainly be interested in our first developmental area where the atomic materials were being kept?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was at the point where, you know, there's nuclear waste outside of our atmosphere.
		We're dangerous.
		You know, we've got to be watched now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Jamie Chanderet.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		Hi there.
		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I am in Tucson.
unidentified		This is Katya in Tucson, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And first of all, I'd like to tell you, Mr. Bell, you're beginning to grow on me.
unidentified		I'm listening to you for about three weeks now, and I'm really enjoying what I'm hearing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And good morning to you, Mr. Chandere.
		Good morning.
		My comment pertains to something I heard earlier this evening on another station, on another talk show.
		And the guest on that show was James McGahey, who's an astronomer.
		I believe he's in Arizona.
		May I mention the name of the host of that show?
		Sure.
		It was Jim Bohannon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jim Bohannon.
unidentified		All right.
		Right.
		Now, first, if you don't mind, I'll tell you the conclusion that Mr. McGahey came to at the end of their discussion.
		His conclusion was that the entire issue of the UFOs is a phenomenon based on ignorance and superstition.
		And there was a caller who was trying very earnestly to describe something that he had seen that was out of the ordinary.
		And Mr. Bohannon just tended to dismiss him.
		I found listening to him because I can't listen to you.
		You don't come on here until 1 o'clock.
		And he tends to patronize anyone with whom he doesn't agree.
		And rather than engage in an intelligent conversation, he just signs off.
		And he has some things to say about you and your guests and to dismiss the whole thing as ludicrous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm used to that.
unidentified		I know you are.
		But my one question now is that Mr. McGahey said that the debris that was found in Roswell, he said, first of all, there were only six or seven witnesses to what was there after the crash, and that everyone else heard about it secondhand.
		And he said that whatever it was was supposed to have been 24 feet across.
		However, there was only five pounds of debris that was recovered, and that debris consisted of rubber, balsa wood, tinfoil, and scotch tape with flowers on it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		First of all, it's patently untrue.
		Virtually all the statements that he's made are untrue.
		And what happens here is that he's done the same thing that unfortunately too many people do.
		They've mixed and matched.
		They've taken testimony from someone prior to the cover-up, and they've taken testimony from the cover-up and mixed and matched it.
		And you can answer that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think somebody would be well served to call Mr. Bohannon and suggest that, as I just did, he have somebody on who was really there and really handled the material and took photographs of the material.
unidentified		I can't call him because, you know, we get him after he's taking calls, but I was just incensed and I just couldn't wait to get on the phone and tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I appreciate that, ma'am, deeply.
		Thank you.
		I'm used to it.
		Jim Bohannon and others that I will not mention seem to have an agenda and an anger with me that is based in more than just a disagreement with regard to the issues that we are discussing this night.
		So I'll just drop it right there.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, this is Ron from the Buffalo, New York area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm a state person.
		I've always been kind of skeptical about these UFO reports.
		And there's a lot of things going on now that people are saying they're being abducted.
		And we've got alien abduction support groups and all that type of things.
		I know, I'm skeptical of a lot of that, too, but it was rather interesting when I heard first, and as long as you're allowing people to mention other programs, there was a, I believe it was a TNT special, October 1st, 1994, which was hosted by Larry King called, I believe it was called Live from Roswell.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And Aries 51, I think, is where they were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Are you 51?
unidentified		Okay, right.
		Okay.
		And he had on there, amongst other people, he had Barry Goldwater on there.
		And Barry Goldwater, apparently, and, you know, he's not exactly your claiming New Age or mystic esoteric type of person.
		He said that he had talked during, apparently, I think it was in the 1964 campaign, he had talked to Curtis LeMay because even as far back as 1964, there were rumblings about things that went on in Roswell and that type of thing.
		And he supposedly asked Curtis LeMay, and Curtis LeMay, who normally he claimed was not very excitable, is very businesslike and professional, got very upset and said something to the effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He actually cussed him out and told him, don't you ever.
unidentified		Exactly, don't you ever, blankety blank, mention that, and I don't even want to know what goes on there or something to that effect.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's the record of the blue room at Wright-Patterson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have that on audio tape from Barry Goldwater.
unidentified		As well as, I was wondering if your guest could maybe elaborate more on that, as well as the other incident, which is more recent.
		Strom Thurmond was supposed, and I did not read the book or anything, but supposedly wrote a foreword to a book.
		And I got this from the Internet.
		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The day after Roswell.
		I will be interviewing Colonel Corso's Sunday on Dreamland, sir.
		You don't want to miss that.
		And he's backed away from it, and they apparently have pulled the forward.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		Can your guest elaborate on either of those?
		Has he a talk to anybody associated with anybody?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		All right, all right, all right.
		Let's do it one at a time.
		Jamie, the LeMay business.
		What can you tell me?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's something very interesting happens with Wright-Patterson.
		It turns out that Wright-Patterson had a major storage facility underground, refrigerated storage facility underground, when its purpose was for nitrate film.
		It's all that the Signal Corps and others, you know, when they shot their film, it was all nitrate in the early days.
		Nitrate's extremely flammable.
		So even in Hollywood, all the storage facilities for nitrate film were refrigerated.
		Now, when the safety film came in, and this is right about turning into the 50s, right into that range, they got rid of all of the nitrate film.
		They converted to safety film and got rid of these areas.
		Well, that opened up an entire underground facility, refrigerated facility at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
		And the story is that was all turned into a SCIF facility, a specially compartmented information facility, or a SCIF, F-C-I-F, which means, you know, because specially compartmented information is high security classification.
		You have to have that special compartment classification to have any access.
		And even if you were top secret, you still had to have a special compartment to be able to access that.
		And so that's where the rumors of Hangar 18, the Blue Room, and all those things at Wright Field apparently have generated from, was this underground facility.
		What they did was then they shipped out all of the film people to other locations, got them out of there.
		Most other people there, as things changed over in time, had no awareness whatsoever that there was such a facility underground there.
		So that tended to be where the genesis of all those things are, and it was highly classified.
		General Exxon made references to bodies being stored at Wright-Patterson.
		He was there in 1947.
		I think he was a major at that time, during the 60s, and roughly about the time that we're talking about here, in 1964, General Exxon was the commander of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
		But he, Even as commander, he did not have access to the information.
		And he had the stories, and he had to assign retrieval groups and other things to go out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, if we are to judge, though, General LeMay's, that was the question, General LeMay's reaction to Goldwater's question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		General LeMay obviously had knowledge.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He had at least, yeah, he had some knowledge.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't mean that he was read into the specific program, but he had knowledge, so he would have been in a periphery position that would have had to rebuff anybody that tried to get close.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandray.
unidentified		Hi.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		This is Mike from Maui.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maui and Hawaii, all right?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And how are you again?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Great.
		Thank you for your wonderful guest, Mr. Shandandere.
		Let me make sure, please.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Shandaray.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Disrespect him.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shandaray.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		You know, I am very excited to hear someone of your nature come on and recite a lot of documents, drop a lot of names.
		The thing that upsets me, and it isn't what you're doing, is the fact that the people that you're referring to aren't as brave as you.
		I know art works as hard as anybody, including a coach of a winning NFL team just to get to playoffs.
		And that's not an easy feat.
		Art probably times tends that.
		And what I appreciate is the fact that we can get it this far.
		What I question, though, is with all the accuracy, or should I say alleged accuracy of a lot of people that have worked in the NASA and the research of aerospace, why is it that the documents are always available, whether they're accurate or not?
		But it just seems so difficult to get them to just come on the air, whether it be your show, ARC, or anybody else's show, or just plain old network television.
		And I think that that draws a lot of funds, including advertising, which makes it lucrative for these people, which that is why they're in the business, television networks and radio networks.
		And I just think it's a shame that people like Mr. Chandere and others, including Richard Hoagland and other folks of that nature, even through such a fantastic show and a venue that you've used, we just somehow, and I think it sheds a lot of curiosity on the validity of what they're trying to say.
		I believe in what I have learned in your show.
		Here take a few oddities.
		But I think the proof is in the pudding.
		And the pudding is not being shown.
		We're just getting words.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the answer to your question is that a lot of people of the caliber that you're talking about are scared to come forward.
		And they have good reason to be scared to come forward.
		Jamie gave us a very good example of that a few moments ago.
		A man who developed film, wouldn't even talk about what was on it, said it related to that thing at Roswell, and had a gun put to his head, and to this day, will not talk.
		Are there a lot of people, do you think, Jamie, in that category?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you a different example.
		The way things are, especially compartmented, that whole phrase has a very strong bearing on this whole issue.
		The aspect of compartmentalization is the brainchild of Dr. Vannevar Bush in particular, who was also named as one of the MJ-12 members.
		The idea of compartmentalization is that if you have a specialty that they need, you're brought into a compartment.
		Now, you're given a certain amount of information because they want you, if you're a physicist, let's say, to work on this.
		You don't know where it comes from.
		You don't know where it goes to.
		You don't know how any of it connects.
		But let's say for a moment that this individual decides that, holy cow, what I'm dealing with is extraterrestrially derived information.
		I think the public has a right to know this.
		And even though, you know, I've signed a security oath to get where I'm at, I've got to give this to a journalist.
		I've got to give this to somebody.
		This story's got to get out.
		So let's say he gives me or anybody this piece of paper, this document that he's got.
		Now, if you're legitimate as a journalist, then you have to go back through the government somehow to validate the information.
		You can't simply take somebody's document and say, whoa, look, this is real.
		So the process of going back through, the document has dye tracers in it because of the compartmentalization and the security nature of the information.
		The dye tracers will first trigger security people.
		They don't have to know the content.
		All they know is there's a marker that just saw the light of day of a document that is not supposed to see the light of day.
		So the first questions are, who had it?
		Why does he have it?
		The proper division is notified.
		They will, within a matter of hours, identify what compartment it came out of.
		Because even if there were five different compartments that had to coordinate, they would know because of the dye tracer, the marker of some kind.
		It would come all the way down to a misspelled word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or the infrared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, because of the way everything is compartmentalized, they could know exactly where it came from.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		If there were five physicists that had to work on the same project, each one would have the same, probably security dye tracer on it, and they would have a different marker.
		They would identify which compartment it came from.
		So they would be able to identify the specific individual within a matter of hours.
		If I was the one that received it, they would never talk to me.
		They would come around, they would knock on that individual's door, and at that point, that man is in deep doo-doo.
		I mean, he is in the deepest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, no matter how you protect your source, the mere imparting of the information is going to tell those who are watching over all this exactly where it came from.
unidentified		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And so here's what would happen.
		What would happen next is they would then say, all right, we can destroy your future.
		We can jail you.
		We can blackball you.
		We can do anything you want.
		But before we make our mind up, here, give this to your journalists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold tight.
		Hold tight, Jamie.
		We'll be right back to you.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		This is CBC.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am Art Bell, and my guest is Jamie Chanderay.
		We're discussing what really happened at Roswell.
		If you are interested in the truth, keep listening.
		Otherwise, good night.
		It's an I. All right, back now to Jamie Chandray.
		Let's see, I'm getting it wrong.
		Chanderay.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Right, Jamie?
unidentified		Yes, long A. All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you struggled with that all your life?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you have.
		No, you know, somebody says, well, what's the derivation of your name?
		I said, well, it's a French-Canadian pronunciation of a bohemian name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Back to the lines we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Jamie.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		This is Dickens, Seattle, Washington.
		I stumbled over something the other day that I thought I might want to share with Jamie.
		It seems like all the government official efforts in covering up information about UFO's important cases in the early years seem to go back to General Hoyt S. Vandenberg.
		And I remember he kicked back the 1948 top secret estimate of the situation report that concluded they were extraterrestrial.
		I just discovered this guy was the director of the Central Intelligence Agency group in 1946 to 1947.
		So I'm thinking that maybe that accounts for much of the reason that the UFO subject back then was covered up.
		I thought I'd offer that for you.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		You see, he's also named as one of the original members of the Majestic 12 group that Truman set up to investigate all this.
		In fact, there were four former directors of Central Intelligence on that group.
		And definitely General Vandenberg was one of them.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that may lead us back to that wonderful organization, the CIA, and all the horrors they vested upon us and visited upon us, I mean.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		And I hope Art gets a chance to have Craig Roberts on again where he can talk about more of their handiwork.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will do that.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		Craig Roberts, of course, was on some time ago, and we will get him on again.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, this is EK in San Diego, and I'm also on your website right now, and they're all discussing it.
		But something I've been dying to ask is why has none of the major media asked Gordon Cooper about his open statements about ET crashes and landings that he's witnessed?
		Do they think he's crazy?
		Do they just dismiss it?
		They don't say anything.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		The biggest problem that the media has is they're uneducated.
		And that seems like a cheap shot in one sense, but it isn't.
		The problem that the media has is that they operate under what I refer to as a broadcast mentality.
		And Art knows, I think, exactly what I'm talking about.
		They work on immediate deadline.
		And if you're talking about something that needs to develop over a few months, let alone years, forget it.
unidentified		Do you think he's credible?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know him.
		But yeah, I think that many of his statements are indeed credible.
		The problem is that too many people allow their education to limit their thinking.
		And that's a shame.
		You know, somebody thinks, well, I was taught this, therefore anything else couldn't be.
		I have a degree that says I know this, therefore anything outside of that realm couldn't be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if there is something outside that realm, then that does harm to or invalidates my degree, and I can't let that happen.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they are in denial.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And in an elitist, I'll get it out, I'm sure, elitist format in their thinking.
unidentified		That's what I was thinking.
unidentified		Colonel Haynes, they'll put him on, let him say what he says, but someone like Cooper, who's a hero, they won't even touch?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Because it's into that kook fringe, and nobody wants to be categorized in that kook fringe.
		The story I was telling in the last hour, so if this journalist gets this document from this individual, and then he's given the second one because the powers that be on the inside have determined who leaked the document.
		So he is given, he hands some bogus information now.
		Then what they do is an end run around the journalist and force his hand by tipping off that somebody else has the same information.
		He better go public quickly with it, or he's going to lose his edge.
		He does it, and boom, they discredit him on the basis that the bogus material discredits everything.
		It doesn't make any difference.
		He had good material in there.
		The bogus material is the rotten apple that spoils the barrel.
		Now, once a few broadcasters, a few magazine journalists, a few print reporters see this happening to 25-year career people, they say, I'm not messing with that stuff.
		There's no future in it.
unidentified		Okay, that answered it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it certainly does, and it's absolutely true.
		And it partially accounts for a lot of the attacks on me, but I've learned to have a thick skin dealing with this kind of material a long time ago, and so I just sort of let it roll off.
		It comes all the time, and the more listeners I get, the more people that are interested, the larger the network grows, the stronger the attacks become, and I expect that, and I just sort of deal with it.
		But somewhere there, there is a truth, and I am determined to get to it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
unidentified		Hi.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this is Nick in Sarasota, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Actually, Art.
unidentified		I'm a degreed engineer myself and also a ham radio operator, but I find this conversation most interesting.
unidentified		I am most impressed with how thoroughly your guest has investigated this situation.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		This is the kind of investigative reporting I like to hear.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		My question is, you stated that the bodies that were found were found a week later and they were somewhat decayed.
unidentified		Are you saying that the people who are reporting they saw live aliens there are wrong?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's a good good question.
		Six days later, to be specific, if memory serves, the bodies in the craft were located.
		Was there, to the best of your knowledge, Jamie, anything alive?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, there was.
		There was, according to very clear testimony, one living alien, and there was indeed an Air Force major ultimately assigned to live with this alien.
		And through pictographs and other methods, they developed a form of communications.
		But the alien lived for approximately three years and died of an unknown ailment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three years.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		They weren't able to save him because they didn't know how to save him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		There have been representations of the alien autopsy.
		More recently, and soon to be released, yet another video that seems or purports to show an alien interrogation at Area 51.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		There's a very big, glaring problem with that one out of Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And that has to do with this DNI notification across the bottom, which Victor claims is the Department of Naval Intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And others say that too.
		Well, there is no such thing.
		There is the Office of Naval Intelligence under the Department of the Navy.
		There is no such thing as Department of Naval Intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you wouldn't know what DNI would be?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, but it's clearly not what they're claiming it to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Problems beyond that.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
		First of all, if you accept the premise for a moment that a control group, a very high-level control group, controls information within this subject area, that control group would have to have one very clear thing going for them.
		The ability to clearly categorize and hide that information.
		I've heard stories where these skiff rooms, especially compartmented information facilities, to go into one, there would be a guard booth inside the room.
		If you had to look at pictures, you would have to look through a funnel type device, which you could not even photograph through, to see one picture at a time.
		So you don't even get to handle the pictures.
		So for somebody, anybody, to say that in any kind of a process of cataloging tapes or in any fashion would have access to information regarding this kind of thing doesn't, I can't buy it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't buy it.
		All right.
		What about the all-famous or infamous alien autopsy?
		What do you make of that?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, you know, I started in the business back in around 1964, and I was shooting film on cameras that were those three minutes, the 100-foot rolls and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And the first thing I would say is this about the thing.
		If you just take it from a production standpoint, from a photographer standpoint, it would never have been handled that way.
		First thing would happen, you would set up two tripods at different angles on either side of the body.
		You would have put on very long magazines and you would stagger the runs.
		So you would have a continuous record all the way through.
		You'd also have a still photographer shooting at all times.
		The other problem, of course, is the fact that the autopsy lasts too short of an amount of time.
		If something as monumental as a brand new body that we've never seen on this planet before is going to have such a team doing this thing and cataloging every minuscule thing all the way through.
		In fact, there seems to be some testimony that that very film surfaced in 1973 and that Andrei Poharich, in fact, was given access to that material.
		In fact, other people that had known Poharich had reported to me things that Poharich had seen and Phil Mantle had sent me some stills.
		This is all before the film was being shown around and everything else.
		And some of the things that the people who had been close to Poharic were saying showed up in those still photographs, such as the wrist being sliced off.
		That's not something you do in an autopsy.
		You don't slice a wrist off.
		The hand is detached from the arm and stuck back in place.
		So there's a whole series of things that are very problematical there.
		The film seems to have derived from, actually from Brazil, as some of the rumors you might have heard, the different stories.
		Perharić had been going down with NASA scientists to see that Arrigo, the surgeon with the rusty knife, and the miraculous things that he was doing.
		In fact, he performed an operation on Perharić.
		Now, Perharic was sort of the godfather of parapsychology in this country.
		He was a physician and a scientist, and he was into a whole series of things.
		If memory serves me right, he was Nami Eisenhower's doctor also.
		So it was somebody that was associated with Arago in Brazil that brought the film to his attention.
		And they thought that if they could get Perharsch behind this film, they're saying it's the Brazilian military that shot this autopsy.
		But ultimately, and Perharsch was interested in the beginning, but the more he saw of it, he said, there's no way.
		Even the Brazilian military of that vintage wouldn't be that sloppy.
		So there's a lot of very big problems with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So you have doubts about those.
		Let me bring you up to date and ask you about something more recent.
		There were some absolutely incredible lights or a craft, depending on the witness you talk to or the film you see, that appeared over the city of Phoenix.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you're well aware.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm well aware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The initial explanation was they were flares.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Which is patently absurd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		This incident went on for 106 minutes, actually.
		It's documented very well on videotape.
		What do you make of this most recent incident?
		I know well that people who have asked questions about it, like Francis Barwood, Council Warner, have had her around the air, have been, are the victims now of smear campaigns, frankly.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Look what the governor did.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that was the most bizarre activity I've ever seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The announcement of the United States.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		In all seriousness, they're going to investigate this.
		He's sending a state agency to investigate this.
		And then by 5 o'clock, he's parading his chief of staff out with an alien head and a shiny face?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, to be specific, after a court appearance, he came out and called what he said was an emergency press conference.
		And then we had aliens, dressed-up aliens, bouncing around and that sort of thing, and it all got silly.
		I'm told this governor is not given to flights of comedy relief or is humorous in that way.
		And the whole incident is very, very strange.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems like he was serious to begin with, but somebody pressured him along the way, saying that, you know, the very thing that's happening to the council woman's can happen to you if you don't turn this into a major joke.
		And that's what appears on the surface.
		I think there is something to the lights in the sky over Phoenix.
		When I say something to it, what do I mean?
		It's difficult to make an intelligent comment by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how about something that would certainly suggest an investigation would be in order.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what Ms. Barwood has done in simply asking for an investigation is not outrageous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is reasonable.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It's more than reasonable.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It's really demanded by the nature of the witnesses' testimony and what's been observed on film and tape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chanderet.
unidentified		Hi.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Jim and North Hollywood.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I'm enjoying your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I was just curious, why is there such a gap until the 8th that they sent out a reconnaissance plane?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Six-day gap.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		See, here's the problem.
		Remember, it's during an electrical storm when this explosion happened.
		And so the rancher didn't report this, didn't take anything in to the sheriff's office until the 6th.
		When the team started out to the ranch on the 6th, it was so late when they got there, they stayed over until the 7th.
		So it was late on the 7th when all this material got back to the base, and the base commander and others were absolutely committed to the concept that they didn't know what this stuff was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the air reconnaissance occurred virtually immediately?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Immediately.
		It was right behind it because this stuff got in late on the 7th, in the evening of the 7th, because you remember Jesse Marcel Jr.'s testimony.
		They got him out of bed to look at this stuff.
		So it was late the night of the 7th.
		That stuff gets in there to the base.
		10 o'clock that morning, it's on its way to Fort Worth.
		And prior to it even leaving, another whole team is being sent with their reconnaissance out to the location.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that's a good question, and that's a good answer, Caller.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you very much.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I sure appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		First time caller align, you're on air with Jamie Chandrea.
		Hi, Chandrea.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		How you doing, Ark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm all right.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		This is Paul in Cameron Park, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've been listening to the show for quite some time, and what especially interests me is the, you know, the extraterrestrials and the aliens and everything else.
		My wife has given up on me.
		She's thrown my pillow out in the garage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, I think that the United States government has known about this for many, many years.
		If you look at the technology from the 1900s to the 1950s and then from the 50s to now to present, we've come a long ways.
		I think we've had some help.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no question there's been a reverse engineering project going on all along the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there, in the spirit of this question, any point where you look at our technological advancement where there has been a leap that otherwise cannot be justified?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Not being a scientist, that would be a difficult question for me to answer straight out.
		I mean, certainly if you look at a simple situation of where we've come just since the personal computer has come under the scene.
		I mean, our technology is growing so fast, so swiftly, that, you know, we can't even get a production line element out anymore before it's completely obsolete.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there is no suggestion, for example, that in the immediate years following 1947, there is any obvious leap in technology?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		No, exactly.
		I don't think anything happened immediately in those immediate years.
		I think it took a considerable period of time.
		We were given a craft, apparently, at sometime in the 50s or 1958.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll get back to that one in a moment.
		Jamie, hold on.
		We'll be right back.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		CBC.
		Crawl art bell toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's who we are.
		And, you know, I would think you would want to archive this program this morning.
		If you do, it's a full five-hour program.
		And you can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		In addition, I have a series of interviews coming up later this morning, including one on KHOW with Peter Boyle, and that'll be about an hour after broadcast, followed then by another interview at WIZM in La Crosse, Wisconsin, and yet a third with KKOB and Albuquerque, all, of course, my affiliates.
		But Tim Cannon, who runs the Airflow Chat Clubs, wanted me to specifically mention the Peter Boyle interview coming up on KHOW in Denver.
		So obviously warming up toward what's coming this weekend.
		My guest, Jamie Chanderet, will be back in a moment.
		One other item, actually, a couple.
		My book, The Quickening, is only got a few more days.
		As a matter of fact, Sunday after Dreamland, and I guess I should tell you, Sunday, Lieutenant Colonel Corso is going to be my guest, who wrote the day after Roswell.
		This coming Friday night, Saturday morning, Beyond Roswell by Michael Hessman and Philip Mantle, and Michael Hessman is going to be my guest Friday night, Saturday.
		Tomorrow night, we are going to have a guest who is going to tell us at least a little bit about this incredible coming press release on the 4th with regard to materials that they claim to have an ironclad case about as being extraterrestrial.
		So that's kind of the balance of what's going on, and it's going to be a very busy week, and I really haven't had much of a chance to say it, which is too bad because a lot of people are going to get angry at me.
		My book, The Quickening, is going into general release in August or early September.
		This Sunday will be your last opportunity to get a signed first edition copy of it.
		However, if that is not material to you or important, and I can understand it well may not be, then you'll be able to get it in the bookstores in August or September, any bookstore, literally across America.
		From now through Sunday, I will sign a copy of my book for you, and then that's it.
		Finish, finny, done, regarding autographs.
		So there you are.
		If you want one, call 1-800-864-7991.
		If you want a first edition autographed copy, 1-800-864-7991.
		After Sunday, that offer is withdrawn.
		Jamie Chanderet will be back in a moment at 7.
		All right, back now to Jamie Chandore.
		Jamie, you said we were given a craft in the 50s?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes, fully intact, just left for us to claim.
		And apparently what our brightest scientists said was that the power supply was an absolute scientific bafflement.
		It was like looking into a box of crystals.
		What do you do with it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's a hell of a statement to make, Jamie.
		How do you back that up?
		How do you know?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got testimony from specific individuals, and apparently, if you're familiar with the Cash Landrum case out of Texas around 1980, 81, where the three generations of one family were on their way back from Bill, on some road outside of Dallas somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		When a craft went above them, hovered over the car, and they got out, and they developed cancer and various other things from that.
		They had a very tough time with that whole thing.
		Well, got testimony, very clear testimony, that that was the craft, that had been modified with a modified nuclear power plant, and that there were 25 black helicopters around that craft at that time because it was on its way into the Gulf of, or over the Gulf of Mexico.
		And that in any situation where a craft like that was being test phoned, it apparently held four aliens originally, but in modifications it would only hold two American pilots.
		and it was they're having instability problems and uh...
		the people were radiated but because of the level of secrecy and the classification on it that's one of those really unfortunate things that uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		During the news conference with Colonel Haynes, poor Colonel Haynes, I call him, he was asked repeatedly about Area 61.
		I live fairly close to Area 61.
		In the movie Independence Day, of course, you'll recall, I'm sure you saw it, they led the president in and he was shown all these incredible things, including a craft and beings in these glass containers.
		Now, I have seen things here, Jamie, that are inexplicable in our skies.
		Inexplicable.
		Two clear times I have seen things, and many times I have seen less clear things that I would not talk of, just lights doing things lights ought not to be doing.
		I don't talk about that.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I had two clear, close encounters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that there are alien craft or have been alien craft at Area 51?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that where they are being tested, back engineered, worked on, or examined?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yes and no.
		Yes, it has occurred.
		No, it isn't specific at this point.
		Things were, all of the really sensitive things were moved some period back.
		What's actually occurred with Area 51 is a very interesting thing.
		It's a dual project that went on, and it went on in particular during the Cold War.
		And it was a way of drawing in and trying to determine what the Soviets really knew about alien contact.
		And did they have the same level of contact that we had?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And so what they were doing is a counterintelligence ploy at the same time.
		So they would let things out.
		It was an area where they could put, again, I'll use the term dye tracer on people coming into the area.
		And they could bag Soviets and interrogate them and find out, and if not interrogate, then they could tag them and determine who their handlers were, who their contacts were.
		And so then who in the Soviet Union was interested in this information and this kind of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, the U.S. government, which already owns a great deal of the land here in my state of Nevada, has, in effect, annexed additional land around Area 51 to prevent the curious from observing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think they have done that if they No longer are doing the kind of work there that they were.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are stories, and again, I'll have to say stories at this point.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Even if they're from very good sources, they still have to fall in the category of stories until you can absolutely validate the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That there are areas within the confines of Area 51 that are off-limits to everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		S4.
unidentified		No, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All sorts of areas, anyway.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but even more strategic than that.
		And in fact, if you look on a Bureau of Lands and Mines map or Bureau of Land Management map, you'll see an area in there within the Area 51 confines that indicates off-limits radioactive.
		And it has nothing to do with, apparently, with radioactivity.
		It has to do with other activities, of which even the security and perimeter guards that, and there are stories floating around that they have found abandoned security guard vehicles at the perimeter of these areas where they have wandered in and they have not returned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		It's generally referred to as the groom-like area.
		They asked the colonel about this during the news conference repeatedly, and he repeatedly had no comment.
unidentified		Right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He did confirm that it exists, but he said it's kind of out of his beta.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he didn't exactly say Area 51 exists.
		He said, I assume, I seem to recall he said, I assume you're referring to the groom-like area and sort of transferred it to that.
		We all know there is a groom-like area.
		So he didn't specifically say Area 51 is groom-like.
		He said, I assume you're referring to the groom-like area.
		And then referred everybody to the Air Force PR people.
		And I don't imagine too many of the reporters went rushing to them.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, you know, most of the people, they don't understand any of it.
		They don't know enough of the information.
		The person has another problem in this area, and that is, who do they go to?
		Who are they going to learn from?
		And the problem in the UFO community is that, boy, it's such an in-fighting kind of thing, and everybody competes with everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Everybody throws rocks at everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And so how does the, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's really a shame because there is enough rocks being launched from outside the community for the community not to be doing itself in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chanderet.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		This question is for Jamie.
		Yes.
		I was, you have heard of the strange camera or object that is looking over Groom Lake?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't know what you're referring to.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what you're referring to either.
unidentified		There was, apparently I read on the internet.
unidentified		I pulled up a webpage.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Be careful of the internet.
unidentified		Yeah, Fennel.
		Yeah, it showed a picture of a strange-looking object that was overlooking Groom Lake, Area 51.
		Apparently, they said it was some type of beacon with infrared seeking, which can detect trespassers or something like that as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have all sorts of security in place in that area.
		And believe me, you cannot get close to it without encountering some people you don't really want to meet and possibly ending up in jail if you go too far.
		Is that your understanding, Jamie?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Jamie Chandere.
unidentified		Hi.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let me turn my radio down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing tonight?
unidentified		Fine.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing, Jamie?
boris said ▲ ● ▼		It's very interesting what you've been discussing and revealing to the American public.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I've got four items, very brief.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		I just want to state them, and then you can answer them a little off the air.
		Did you look into the credibility of the testimony of Barney Barnett at one?
		Do you know who any of the University of Pennsylvania students were that were on site before recovery personnel arrived?
		And in regards to the MJ-12 documents, who does MJ-12 report to or what?
		And what parts of our government does it exclude?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on there, please.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Jamie?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Let's see, your first question again was work backwards here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's take them one at a time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		caller, in the proper chronology, what was your first question, please?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Barney Barnett was a All right, did you investigate the credibility?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I didn't investigate the credibility.
		The problem, of course, with Barney Barnett story is it was second-hand to begin with.
		So the problem was narrowing it in.
		Now, Stan Friedman did an awful lot of work on Barney Barnett, and he puts a lot of stock in Barney Barnett's story.
		I don't put stock in the plane to San Augustine location.
		That's problematical for me.
		So I don't know how else to answer that question beyond that aspect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, question two.
boris said ▲ ● ▼		The University of Pennsylvania students that were alleged to have been on the site at the same time before recovery personnel arrived, has anyone tracked them or found out who they were and interviewed them?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		No, anything about it?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard of that.
		Oh, yeah, they supposedly were out there.
		I think that there was, I think Randall and Schmidt had located or sort of located somebody along the line, but I don't think anything came to any significant fruition in any of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and the final question involved Majestic and who they, if anybody, report to?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, what happened with MJ-12 is they were structured, they were set up originally by Truman, and for a very good reason.
		Initially, when they found the bodies, when they found all of this stuff, they didn't know what they were up against.
		So for very legitimate reasons, this thing was covered up.
		And it was covered up from the standpoint that they put a lid on it to investigate it, examine it, and make a determination.
		What is going on?
		Are we under attack?
		Can we defend ourselves?
		Did the Nazis know this?
		Did the Soviets have this?
		What's going on?
		So it makes sense in the beginning to put a lid on it.
		What they understood also at the same time is they couldn't keep it secret, but they knew they could manage it.
		So it isn't really a secret.
		It's well managed, and what they really manage is the evidence.
		Now, back to your question, which is who do they report to?
		When Eisenhower was elected, Eisenhower gave the group autonomy from the President of the United States.
		So they are autonomous and work outside of the direction of the President of the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then would it be true or not true, in your opinion, that each president following Eisenhower was not aware of their existence or function?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		What they did was they briefed presidents on presidents' need to know.
		In other words, let's take a Jimmy Carter.
		When Jimmy Carter comes into office, Jimmy Carter had made statements while he was running for president.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Promises, actually.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		He had seen a sighting, let's say, while at a Kiwanis Club parking lot.
		And he's not just a casual observer.
		He was an astrophysicist at Annapolis for his major.
		So he made promises that he was going to get to the bottom of this UFOS issue.
		If the government had information, he wanted to see the public got that information.
		If they didn't, he wanted to know why they didn't.
		The last line is always left off, and that is, as long as it isn't against national security.
		Now, when he became president, at the point where he began to really rumble about this subject area, it was determined that he was now in a need-to-know position.
		And so they briefed him.
		And what each president would subsequently find out is there is a long-term plan underway for the eventual complete release of this information, but gradually.
		So the planet and the planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, let me stop you, Jamie, and tell you a little story.
		And I've told it before.
		A caller, a very credible caller, called when I had another guest on said.
		He went to a Jimmy Carter book signing.
		Jimmy Carter was doing, as a lot of people do in book signings and hardly looking up, signing books like crazy, one after the other.
		This caller took the time and trouble to capture ex-President Carter's attention eye to eye and asked him specifically and directly about his promise to reveal everything.
		According to the caller, Jimmy Carter stopped cold and actually had tears form in his eye.
		Now, Jimmy Carter was, in my opinion, not particularly an effective president because he micromanaged, and I have a lot of arguments with some of his policies and things he did.
		But one thing Jimmy Carter was, was an honest man.
		And so the question becomes, what could they have told Jimmy Carter that would have made him decide to cast away all of his promises made during the campaign and shut his mouth?
		What could they have told him that would be so profound that he would shut up?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, we got a draft at one point of the briefing that he was given, and he was shown the fact that there was an alien had been in our possession, so to speak, but it really was in our possession, you know,
		almost as a liaison, and that the technology level was advancing, that there were projects underway to determine all of those things, that there was an emergency release program, and that there was a gradual release, which was the best possible way to not damage institutions, not frighten people, and let this thing begin to assimilate into the general public.
		The main thing being to get people to exercise a thinking that it could indeed be real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the genesis of that Brookings report?
		Or of that slow release idea, in other words, Brookings suggested, were we to find out all at once, disruption of institutions and scientists and blah, blah, blah, all the rest would be tremendous.
		So instead, we get a slow capsule release form of information.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they told Jimmy Carter that he simply couldn't release it all at once, simply can't do it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And what the president also finds out at that point is the president doesn't have the ability to do anything about it.
		As long as they're controlling that information and it's that subject area, the president does not even have direct access to the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if he knows that much, Jamie, he can say, I'm holding a news conference tonight, and I'm going to tell the nation what I know.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But what he's shown is that it is in the best interest of the nation to not do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To not do that.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		And he is left in the same position at that point that anybody else would that would go to the media.
		He has nothing to back up his statements.
		And so it would be, in essence, political suicide for him to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Jamie Chantere.
unidentified		Hi there, Art.
		This is Cheyenne in the City of the Falling Angels.
		Yes.
		My family moved to Roswell in the 70s, and I lived there in the 80s.
		I walked the medicine path and apprenticed as a healer with the Native Americans.
		As such, I was adopted by the Chicano and the Native American.
		I was shown a side of Roswell that a lot of whites aren't privileged to see.
		I think it's information that's necessary to anyone who is doing any kind of research with Roswell, and it's as difficult to accept as the Tuskegee experiment.
		I know I'm going to sound like a looney tune, but that's what your show is about, right?
		The power there in Roswell is controlled by a very few families.
		That power influence the Roswell record.
		I was very concerned when you started your research with Art's Parts.
		I was afraid that you'd stray into the wrong spot and you'd lose Arts Parts.
		No.
		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I handled, I knew what I was up against.
		Ma'am, I'm sorry, we're going to have to break it off from that point.
		Is there anything to that, Jamie, very quickly, a sort of a controlling small group in Roswell?
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I don't have any information on that.
		I have no way of knowing.
		I mean, today, of course, it's a whole different story than it has been at various other times in the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jamie, it has been an honor to have you on the program.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		It's been my pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think we've moved things ahead a notch or two, and we will continue to do that this weekend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jamie, when events dictate, please feel free to call me and we'll have you back.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you so much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
		This is CBC.
		Good night.

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