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July 2, 1997 - Art Bell

03:21:10

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Jamie Shandera - Roswell Crash

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	At KSTV.
	On the high desert and the great American Southwest. Did you all good evening this morning? As the case may be
	across all these many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian island chains in the west, eastward
	to the Caribbean and the U.S. North.
	Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the pole, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	And I'm Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	During the next few evenings, we are going to, in effect, be answering the Air Force News Conference with respect to Roswell.
	As you know, the 50th anniversary of Roswell is upon us.
	And in Roswell, thousands, tens of thousands, will be gathering to celebrate the anniversary of an event that these people believe was the first A real contact with extraterrestrial life forms in what is said to have been a crash near Roswell, New Mexico.
	And the only way I can think of to answer what the Air Force has given us, which basically is, in my opinion, nonsensical, and probably more easily believed by the dummies displayed than the American public, We're going to try and lay it out very carefully for you.
	There are a number of things occurring simultaneously.
	There are some things which tonight I'm not going to mention that are going on in Phoenix that I'm studying and trying to put together.
	Phoenix, does that ring a bell?
	A lot of synchronicity here may be too much for me.
	I'll have more on the Phoenix situation for you tomorrow.
	And I also will have for you tomorrow a bit of a teaser on a press conference scheduled for 9 o'clock July 4th, 1997 at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute campus in Roswell, at which time there will be a presentation of scientific tests performed on crash debris found near Roswell, New Mexico 50 years ago that, get this, once and for all will prove The downed vehicle was not of Earth origin.
	A research scientist from a major university involved in the testing is going to be on hand to discuss the methodology and the results of the isotopic ratio tests of the Roswell debris.
	Now, there are certain isotopic ratios that are consistent or Not consistent with Earth-originated materials.
	Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities and national labs will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is, if this manufactured, an important word, manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.
	Period.
	In other words, they are going to suggest Roswell case closed.
	They claim they have materials which they can prove are not of Earth origin, which they can prove are manufactured materials.
	So what does that mean?
	That means we have manufactured materials not of Earth, collected, they're going to suggest, or prove, at Roswell.
	The scientific aspects of this apparently are said to be ironclad.
	We shall see.
	Tomorrow night, I will have a guest who will preview some of that material for you.
	Tonight, we are going to trace for you, in a lot of ways, the origins of the entire Roswell incident.
	For 50 years, the photographs taken in General Ramey's office On July 8th, 1947, that's a very important date, folks.
	Not 1953, not 1959, but July 8th, 1947, have been thought to be the remnants of a weather balloon as part of the government's cover-up of what really occurred.
	But clear testimony and careful research reveal a very different story.
	In fact, The events leading up to the photographs taken that day form the only finite timeline that indicates clear government cooperation until a momentous discovery caused the shroud of secrecy to descend.
	Researchers and other experts think the seven photographs taken in General Ramey's Fort Worth office show remnants from a weather balloon and assume that they were part of the cover story.
	Photographs are only evidentiary support of the personal testimony of the individuals who were actually in the room and handled that material.
	Carefully researched and documented interviews are supported by statements from Associated Press and other newspaper articles revealing very clearly that four of the photographs left the General's office prior to the order for cover-up.
	The government ...had been cooperating with the press up until the second field team, over in Roswell, with aerial reconnaissance, made a crucial discovery.
	But by this time, they had already allowed photographs of extraterrestrial debris to leave the General's office.
	Because of the innocuous nature of the debris, they chose to call it, quote, remnants of a weather balloon, end quote.
	Jamie Shandurea, Shondurea, I'm gonna have a tough time with this.
	PhD, U.S.
	Army.
	No, let me correct that.
	Let me start with Jamie.
	Shondurea has been a director, producer, investigative journalist for 30 years.
	He has worked behind the scenes guiding productions in news documentaries, political campaigns, national and international commercials, and thousands of shows of every variety.
	Over the last 15 years, his primary focus has been the investigation into what the U.S.
	government knows about extraterrestrials, fact or fiction.
	He received the controversial MJ-12 documents anonymously in the mail in 1984.
	Despite relentless effort, debunkers have never been able to definitively disprove the documents, regardless of their claims.
	While researching documents in the National Archives, he also discovered the Cutler-Twining document, that would be General Twining, and he created the Aviary, which has taken on a mythical life of its own, that's true.
	It is composed of intelligent sources, the true identities, which have never been revealed.
	He has sustained the longest running inside investigation into the world's greatest secret The initial crash at Roswell was just the beginning.
	Communicated encounters, technological exchanges, alien ambassadors, test flights in alien craft, it's all part of the history you didn't know.
	Harry Truman said it best when he stated, the only thing new in the world is the history you didn't know.
	So, in a moment, Jamie Chandra Ray is going to be a PhD, who actually is the man who shot most of the photographs in Ramey's office, and actually handled the debris, is also going to be on the air.
	So, we are going to take a very careful look at what really did occur in Roswell,
	and if you are interested, I suggest you stay tuned.
	Now, the Beijing Radio.
	One thing is clear, and it is painfully clear to the people in the upper central part of the U.S., around the Twin Cities.
	Most recently, yesterday, my God, they had some awful weather there.
	Awful weather.
	The weather is undergoing a change.
	Temporary?
	Or permanent?
	I don't know.
	We can argue about that.
	But not about the fact that the weather is changing, and let me tell you, when it gets bad, as those folks know, the first thing to go is power.
	And when the power goes, you are going to want to have information.
	As a matter of fact, information could well save your life.
	You need to know what's going on.
	The Beijing Freeplay Radio will allow you to have that information.
	And it could save your life.
	It does not use batteries.
	It is an AM-FM shortwave radio.
	And, uh... It weighs seven pounds.
	It has, internally, the Bayless clockwork generator.
	And then externally there is a crank and you turn this crank for 30 seconds.
	This radio will then faithfully play for 30 minutes with no external power nor batteries whatsoever.
	It has its own power.
	Normally we sell, as you well know, this radio at the discount price of $119.95.
	For the 4th of July weekend, through Monday only, listen very carefully, through Monday only, we have just reduced the price to $109.95, and that includes shipping and handling.
	So, to your door, $109.95, only as long as supply lasts.
	In other words, if between now and Monday it dries up, which it may well do, that will be that.
	So there you've got it.
	If you want one, call the Sea Crane Company at 1-800-522-8863.
	1-800-522-8863 That's 1-800-522-8863
	The C. Crane Company.
	That's 1-800-232-5665.
	You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
	Tell them Art Bell sent you.
	Please do.
	All right.
	Now, at it for over 30 years investigating all of this is Jamie Chandra.
	Jamie, welcome to the program.
	Thank you, Art.
	Good to be here.
	I take it you are on your way to Roswell, sort of.
	On my way to Roswell, sort of.
	Yeah, I'm working on a new documentary being produced out of New York, and I have a lot of pickup shots to get along the way.
	Okay, Jamie, I'm not hearing you very well for some reason.
	You need more audio.
	I can hear me better now?
	Yes, you're going to have to really stay into that phone, Jamie, or they're not going to hear you.
	I'll be right in there.
	All right, good.
	That's good.
	All right, Jamie, you've been at this, what, 30 years investigating all of this?
	Well, actually, of the 30 years, the first 15 were my training ground.
	I spent a lot of years in news and shooting documentaries, and that sort of laid the groundwork for what was to come along.
	And it was in, I guess, 1982 when William Moore, who had written the original Roswell incident book that Stanton Friedman had researched on, Right, and Charles Berlitz actually wrote the text for that book.
	He had contacted me because a source had made contact with him when that book was published, a source inside the intelligence community, somebody who wanted to share information.
	And he'd been dealing with his deep throat for a while when he came to me.
	I'd known him for a couple of years, and he thought that maybe we could raise some money and do a film.
	And I said, well, If I've learned anything in the time I've been in this business, raising money to do a film is the last thing I'm interested in.
	But what I do see here is something very interesting, a situation very much analogous to Watergate.
	If indeed this source that's feeding information is bona fide, then why is he cultivating people in the private sector to feed this information to?
	So, it wasn't that I bought in immediately and said, oh wow, this is great.
	It looked like an interesting story either way, because the story he was telling Had to do with the government's role in all of this.
	And if he was telling the real story, then there's no story bigger.
	But if he wasn't telling the real story, then it was still interesting to me because why was he cultivating people in the private sector to run a hoax like this on?
	Disinformation.
	Intentional disinformation.
	What ultimately I decided I had to do, in all my years in documentaries and news, was a terrific training ground for me.
	Because if you do a documentary about a different culture, about a different thing, you have to really reach the mindset of the people that you're shooting.
	Sure.
	To be able to tell their story from their perspective.
	To be able to translate it so that others that don't understand them can understand them.
	So I felt I had to do the exact same thing with the intelligence community.
	I had to absorb and understand and be able to interface with the intelligence community to understand what was going on.
	And it was an incredible education.
	Because the intelligence community is truly a subculture.
	And I don't mean that in any negative sense, per se.
	No, I understand.
	A culture separate from normal society.
	By definition, of course.
	By definition.
	And disinformation is a very big part of that process.
	And one of the things we had to learn early on was that disinformation will always be there.
	It is standard operating procedure.
	And so what you have to do is you can never, ever take straight out at face value anything from An intelligent person.
	An intelligent person.
	All right, Jamie.
	The guard against this in America is supposed to be the press.
	The newspapers, the investigative broadcast media, and so forth and so on.
	Has the press fulfilled its duty in this regard over the years?
	As the ongoing examination of Roswell, and not just Roswell, but what goes beyond Roswell, contact with alien beings, recovered crash debris, and so forth and so on is concerned.
	Has the press done its job?
	Absolutely not.
	They haven't even come close.
	And for a lot of reasons.
	Some of those reasons are self-preservation.
	Other reasons are the war between government and the press.
	The government side has an enormous distrust of the media.
	So they don't let media in.
	So it's always an at-odds situation.
	They're always doing battle.
	One of the ways I think that we were, and I say we, it was William Moore initially in the investigation with me, one of the ways that we were, I think, initially... Let us clear up for the audience.
	This is not the Bill Moore that's on shortwave with the U.S.
	Naval Department supposedly secret papers in 1972, not that Bill Moore.
	No, this is William L. Moore who originally wrote the Philadelphia Experiment back around 1979 with Charles Berlitz again.
	Yes.
	And he wrote the original book The Roswell Internet with Charles Berlitz in around 1980.
	Right.
	We're going to leap ahead for a second, then we'll leap back.
	The Air Force just held a news conference, as you are well aware.
	Were you able to see that in its entirety?
	Yes, I saw the whole thing.
	You saw the whole thing.
	How did you come away from that?
	Well, you know, in one way you want to really laugh incredibly hard, in another way you want to almost cry, because it's such a pathetic scene.
	I felt sorry, actually, for Colonel Haynes, because I think he was an unwitting duke in the whole process.
	I don't think this man was at all prepared for what he was up against, and I think it was unfortunate for that.
	My view on it, and this is my personal take, is that this thing was somebody was pulling the strings from way on high, and they did something very deliberate, and that was to fan the flames.
	This wasn't meant to quell anything.
	This was another trial balloon to test the waters, to look at public reaction, look at media reaction, and draw lines.
	And I think they got exactly what they wanted from it.
	Did the press do its job at that press conference?
	I mean, they did ask about the six-year gap between the beginning of the experiments with the dummies and the The experimental aircraft and the balloon trains and all the rest of it, beginning in 1953 through 1969, they asked this colonel, how can you explain this six-year minimum difference?
	And the colonel said, his answer was time compression, that people forget dates and events.
	And they did come back and say, but six years, colonel, And he just sort of looked perplexed, paused, and said, well, I really don't have an answer.
	Yeah, it's a shame somebody didn't ask him about dummy compression because, you know, with the number of bodies found together, we only saw single dummies being dropped in individual parachutes.
	There's also a major discrepancy pointed out by the Time Magazine article when the retired Colonel Weaver, and Weaver's an interesting name because Weaver is the one who gave birth to that six-pound baby a couple of years ago.
	The report on the mogul balloons.
	You know, that six-pound book of... Yes.
	It was a textbook in propaganda.
	It was 1994, right?
	Right, yes.
	And that was as a response to the GAO investigation.
	Right.
	Why do you think the Air Force felt compelled at this time, and a lot of people ask this question, after the 1994 report, to come back again An attempt to explain away, right on the anniversary of Roswell, once again, the same thing, only with a little added bonus of dummies, which by the way were full human size.
	They actually showed photographs of them with some test pilots and so forth.
	Why did they feel the need to come back now and try and explain the whole thing away again?
	Well, that's a very good question.
	It's one that nobody can answer on the street.
	It seems very clear, as I've stated earlier, somebody's pulling strings and they wanted to fan the flames.
	There's nothing, absolutely nothing in this press conference that could have quelled or satisfied anybody who had an interest in this subject.
	As a matter of fact, if you look at the Roswell celebration coming up, as a commercial venture, it seems to me that the people who are putting this on should have authored a letter of Um, absolute thanks to the Air Force for that press conference, because nothing could have given it a bigger boost than what they did.
	Do you agree?
	I totally agree.
	100%.
	Jamie, hold on.
	We'll be back to you in a moment.
	This will be quite an evening.
	From the high desert, near dreamland, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Coast to Coast AM.
	Oh, Lord.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033. This is
	the CBC Radio Network.
	That's who we are. My guest is Jamie Chandure. Coming up at the beginning of the next hour, we will be joined by J.
	Bond Johnson, Ph.D., who is a photographer who actually shot the photographs, most of the pictures, in General Ramey's
	office.
	The pictures of the Roswell debris.
	And this is the only way that I can see that we are going to begin to get to the truth about what really occurred in 1947.
	Not 1953 through 1969.
	So that's what we're all about tonight and for the next few days.
	We'll get back to Jamie in a moment.
	Back now to Jamie.
	Are you there?
	I sure am.
	Okay, Jamie.
	Good.
	If you would, how sure are you that what crashed at Roswell was not a balloon or a balloon train And that the dummies that they showed us were not, in fact, the bodies that everybody has claimed were recovered, along with a cramp at Roswell, or near Roswell.
	I'm absolutely 100% positive.
	How?
	Alright, it's a whole stacked and layered scenario that is actually quite fascinating, because it takes place over several time zones all at the same time.
	Alright.
	With competing events.
	As we go to the original Roswell scenario, which was that on the night of July 2nd, electrical storm, there was an explosion heard in the night sky, which would indicate something obviously not crashed in the ground, but exploded in the sky.
	July 2nd.
	In other words, exactly 50 years ago tonight.
	That's correct.
	Now, that was reported in the newspaper and stuff the next day.
	There were the Wilmonts sitting on their porch and so forth.
	They witnessed it.
	It was heard by Mac Brazel, the rancher out at a, you know, in a ranch house.
	With no radio, no newspaper, or anything else.
	His family lived off near Corona, where the kids could go to school.
	He'd been out there for weeks, and he normally was weeks at a time.
	The next day, on July 3rd, he goes out to the field and sees all this debris scattered everywhere.
	Pulled some of the bigger chunks into a little shed.
	Then the next night, he was in a bar in Corona, New Mexico, and he heard, which was the 4th of July, and he heard these stories of these silver streaking things seen all over the country.
	And he started telling tales about his finds, And somebody said, well, maybe this is one of those silver streaking things.
	You should, you should get it into Roswell.
	So the next day he went back to, uh, uh, the ranch.
	He collected his wool.
	He collected some pieces and he headed into town the following day, July 6th, the Sunday.
	Went to the Sheriff's office.
	In the Sheriff's office, the Sheriff said, well, you get a crash of something out there.
	You better call the base.
	They called the base and they get Major Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer at the Officer's Club having lunch.
	Right.
	So Jesse decides, well, if there's a crash or something, I better check this out.
	So he comes over to interview the rancher.
	And he says, boy, you got a field full of this stuff.
	Well, we better go out there and take a look.
	So they make arrangements to meet at the end of town.
	Marcel goes back to the base and gets somebody else to go with him.
	Gets a counterintelligence corps officer, Sheridan Cavett.
	They inform Colonel Blanchard, the base commander, what they're going to do.
	And they head out to meet the rancher with a .42 Buick and a Jeep Carriol.
	Take them the rest of that day to get out there.
	They stay overnight on the 6th and Monday, the 7th, they begin collecting this material.
	They fill the entire 42 Buick, front seat, back seat, trunk.
	They fill the entire Jeep carry-all and head back to the base.
	Now, this was a very strange material to them because it was as thin as the foil in a chewing gum wrapper, but it had strange qualities to it.
	All right.
	In the movie Roswell, it was shown that this Debris, this foil-type material, had all kinds of very unusual qualities.
	You could crumple it up, you couldn't damage it, you couldn't hurt it.
	If crumpled, it would return immediately to its former configuration.
	Is that, in essence, what you have heard?
	There's two actual locations, ultimately, that were discovered.
	The first was the debris site at Mac Brazell, and that we're discussing right at this moment.
	Some of the... and then there was eventually another site where the main part of the craft and bodies were located.
	But Mac Brazell wasn't aware of that, nor was Marcel or Cabot as of July 7th.
	Okay?
	Now, I had talked to... what was it?
	Master Sergeant Rickett.
	He was Counterintelligence Corps.
	They don't normally go by the rank.
	When they're Counterintelligence, they can...
	Going to move in their own way.
	The counterintelligence corps units were not under the base commander's control.
	They were under counterintelligence corps out of Washington.
	Under their control.
	Anyway, he told me very specifically when he was at the craft site that he held one of those pieces that you're talking about that would crumple in your hand and then you let go of it and it went right back to its original shape.
	So, on back to the seventh now, as they come back into town, Cabot goes straight to the base with his material.
	And Marcel stops by at his house, wakes his son up, has him come down to take some of the pieces out, and he was very excited about this otherworldly stuff they had, because he had seen most everything that flew.
	And they tried to piece some of it together, but it was just too big of a task.
	Alright, I have interviewed Jesse Marcel Jr.
	on this program.
	He tells the exact tale you're talking about, remembers his father coming home, He remembers handling material that was more substantial than the foil.
	Bars with very strange symbols.
	Die beams with symbols embedded in the... Embedded, that's right.
	He ran his fingers over those symbols and so he physically had them in his hands.
	That's correct.
	And I've talked to him also and I've gone through all the different pieces on that.
	So anyway, Major Marcel puts the stuff back in the vehicle and heads back to the base.
	At that point, the next question is, at what point did this stuff get over to Fort Worth?
	Because we know the following day, on July 8th, that material shows up at Fort Worth, and there were pictures taken of material in Fort Worth.
	Now the controversy, or the thing that was always thought, was that the material shot in Fort Worth, and the reason Fort Worth comes in the picture is this.
	At Fort Worth was Carswell Airfield.
	Carswell was the home of the commanding general of the 8th Army Air Forces.
	Roswell Base was under, the Roswell Army Airfield was under the 8th Army Air Force's command, and so General Ramey would be the first general in the chain of command.
	Okay.
	They were all under the Strategic Air Command.
	Roswell, of course, was extremely important because it was the only atomic bomber wing in the world.
	Right.
	In July of 47, we were the only ones that had the atomic bomb, and the elite that flew them were all stationed at Roswell.
	All right, so the question then is, when did it go over?
	How did it go over?
	And what happened to it?
	And how did the story that it was a weather balloon in Ramey's office come about?
	It came about for several reasons.
	Number one, the captions that are showed in the paper of July 9th indicated that this was some kind of a radar reflector from a weather balloon.
	And that was accepted all the way along with one slight aberration.
	And that one aberration was Major Jesse Marcel's testimony.
	He claimed that his picture taken in General Ramey's office was taken with actual debris.
	None of the exciting stuff, but very innocuous debris.
	The more exciting stuff was still on the belly of the plane, under armed guard, waiting to
	be shipped to Wright Field, where the Air and Material Command and the Foreign Technology
	Division and others could begin the examination of it.
	Now I was looking one day at the Roswell Incident book that Bill Moore had co-authored and I
	I said, something's a little strange here to me.
	You've got Jesse Marcel with this debris, and it says that, and he very clearly said, and he said it in four different interviews, that the debris in the picture that he was in was the real stuff.
	But this picture with Ramey and then-Colonel, Chief of Staff to the 8th Army Air Forces, Colonel DuBose, it says that stuff was substituted and a picture was taken.
	Right.
	It looks like the same stuff.
	Right.
	So I don't understand the difference here.
	Well, it turned out that The reason that it said that in the caption underneath the Gramey and DuBose picture was because Jesse Marcel had speculated that after he was ordered out that they changed the stuff and had pictures taken with a weather balloon.
	Well, at about the time that Unsolved Mysteries did a big Roswell piece, interest in the Roswell incident began to escalate enormously.
	And into the picture enters J. Bond Johnson.
	Jay Bon Johnson contacted me one day because he had seen my name on something and he saw that I used to work with the RKO General and he had done some stuff with RKO Pictures at one point and he thought we might have something in common and he was interested in learning more about what was going on in the investigations on Roswell.
	Who is Jay Bon Johnson?
	Well, Jay Bon Johnson, it turns out, in 1947 was a cub reporter slash photographer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and it just turns out that on that particular day, July 8th, he was sitting in And the paper, when the city editor ripped off something off the wire that indicated that the the flying disc that had been recovered in Roswell was now on its way to General Ramey's office.
	And the city editor asked Bond, do you have your camera in your car?
	He said, well, I sure do.
	He says, well, then get your butt over to the base and get up to Ramey's office and get a picture of this thing.
	So he did.
	Now, earlier that day, We know that Walter Hout had put out a press release under the orders of Colonel Blanchard.
	We know that the time that that happened at approximately 1130.
	Because we know that that's what Walter Hout said, number one, but that's backed up by the fact that when he gave it to Frank Joyce, in the rotation that they did normally in Roswell, Frank Joyce was eating his lunch, and it was sometime around noon.
	And then Frank Joyce took his time getting it around, and then eventually to the Western Union wire service around two o'clock, out of Santa Fe.
	And that's when it hit Big time.
	Right.
	All over the world that a flying disc had been recovered.
	Now that is backed up by the fact that the other newspaper in town, other than the Roswell Record, that they began their evening shift and they almost could not get a paper out because starting at 2 o'clock the phones began ringing off the hook.
	People from all over the world were trying to descend upon Roswell to find information of this stuff.
	Now, when Blanchard told Hout to put out the press release at 11.30, Hout asked him If he could see the stuff.
	And this is in many interviews with Walter Howe, and he's always been consistent about this.
	And Blanchard said, no, you can't.
	You don't have a need to.
	Secondly, it's not here anymore.
	It's already gone.
	Already gone.
	Now, the Associated Press, in their efforts to find it, had determined specifically, and it's in numerous AP articles on the story, that the plane left with the debris at 10 a.m.
	on July 8th.
	And as the press release said, It was released to higher headquarters, accompanied by Major Marcel.
	But it didn't say where higher headquarters were.
	So the press was going crazy.
	They were trying to find this stuff, and they're descending on Roswell looking for it.
	But they found it had already left at 10 a.m.
	Now, the important thing about the 10 a.m.
	time frame is this.
	When Blanchard goes to Walter Howe at 1130, with the material already gone, that means he, Blanchard, had already notified higher headquarters.
	Higher headquarters saw enough importance in this to get it To Ramey's office, let Ramey look at it first.
	He's the first general in the chain of command, and then on to right field.
	So when Blanchard put out the press release, he did that only on orders from Washington.
	All right, so Ramey was in Fort Worth.
	Yes, Ramey's in Fort Worth.
	And ultimately the material went to right back.
	Right, which was right field at that time.
	Okay, right field, yeah.
	So now here's the important part here.
	Blanchard didn't do that Press release on his own.
	He would have been usurping higher command if he had, since he had already released that material.
	It was no longer his prerogative to make that decision.
	Now, what it turns out that then-Colonel DuBose, and then as a retired general when I interviewed him, he indicated very clearly that General Clements McMullen was directing the show from Washington.
	And General Clements McMullen was then acting director of the Strategic Air Command.
	Now, as acting director of the Strategic Air Command, what he was doing was Getting each individual in this case, Blanchard, DuBose, Ramey, and talking to them and giving them specific orders.
	There's no chain of command.
	He was directing everything to each individual.
	And he told Blanchard to send a portion of that with a courier over to Fort Worth, and he told DuBose to meet that plane, take that in, and look at it.
	Yeah, how do we know all that?
	Well, we know that in this way.
	Earlier researchers, when they talked to General DuBose, Missed a very important chunk of information.
	And here's how they missed it.
	A psychologist will tell you that memory is in chunks.
	There are highlights.
	I think it was Vaughn Johnson, who was also a clinical psychologist, says that he likes to use the phrase, memories are in sound bites.
	Not a contiguous flow of information.
	That's right.
	The sound bites in General DuBose's mind of 40 or so years earlier had been the fact that Clements McMullen ordered them to do this.
	He had ordered them, ultimately, to send it to him, and ordered them, ultimately, to, don't you ever speak of this again.
	Don't you tell your wife.
	Don't you tell your son.
	Don't you tell anybody, as long as you live.
	You're out of it now.
	Do you understand?
	And he said, by God, I was a good soldier, and I never spoke of it again.
	And he told Ramey the same thing, and neither one of us ever talked about it, and we were good buddies.
	We flew missions during the war.
	We golfed together.
	We had long trips in the cars.
	We worked right there.
	So, they never spoke of it.
	His down bites, his chunks of memory, were mostly the command from General Cummings McMullen.
	The debris was uninteresting.
	So he forgot a whole chunk of things.
	So he told a story that goes like this.
	The Blanchard sent a pouch over with a courier, that he, DuBose, met the plane, that he handed over to another courier to get on another plane to go to Washington.
	Now, as he told the story, he said that General McMullen told him to look at it, and then he tells the story about meeting the plane and giving it to another courier and going home.
	Well, something struck me as being real odd in this picture.
	What's odd is, planes flew from Roswell to Washington.
	Why would you ever courier something to Fort Worth to change couriers and change planes and send it to Washington from there?
	The first courier could be debriefed by somebody.
	Because he would know, you know, if it's Marcel, he was there at the field, they could talk to him.
	The second courier wouldn't know anything.
	It makes no sense.
	Well, they were supposedly dropping some off at Ramey's office, correct?
	General Ramey's office?
	Correct.
	Well, that's the part that was missing in DeBose's statement.
	So I said to General DuBose, then, at that point, I said, well, General, I'm a little hazy on something here.
	If you were ordered to look at it, why didn't you look at it?
	And he was silent for a moment.
	He said, well, you know, I don't know.
	I said, well, General, I'm looking at this picture in General Raymond's office.
	He said, I don't know?
	He said, I don't know.
	If you were ordered to look at it, why didn't you do it?
	Response, I don't know.
	Well, because he had forgotten.
	He had the sound bites.
	He had the highlights.
	The uninteresting stuff was the stuff.
	So I said, look, I have this picture in my hand.
	I said, it's you, it's General Ramey, and it's this stuff in General Ramey's office.
	Everybody's calling this, you know, a weather balloon.
	In other words, I've got this autograph with you in it.
	What do you have to say about that?
	He says, well, I don't know what picture you're talking about.
	Uh-huh.
	I said, well, it's you.
	And he said, well, please, if you say I'm in the picture, I believe you.
	But I don't know what picture you're talking about.
	And then it dawned on me.
	This man hasn't seen this picture since 1947.
	He's forgotten the whole, all kinds of chunks of this thing.
	And nobody ever refreshed his memory.
	Nobody even put the picture in front of him when they talked to him.
	So I said, General, let me send you this picture.
	Would you look at it?
	And can I call you in a few days?
	Worth a thousand words.
	He said, absolutely.
	So I sent him the picture.
	Uh-huh.
	Called him back.
	I said, did you get it?
	He said, oh, absolutely.
	There was no mistaking who that is.
	I said, yes, sir.
	I said, now, can you tell me what that is?
	In other words, he admitted, yeah, sure, it's me.
	He says, yeah, absolutely.
	He said, uh, sure I can tell you what that is.
	He said, by God, there's no man alive that can tell you any better than I can.
	He said, that's the stuff.
	That's the stuff that came in from Roswell.
	He said, I met the plane, I took it in the office, and I put it on that floor.
	I said, okay, now tell me something.
	So, you're saying to me that's not a weather balloon.
	He said, absolutely not.
	There was no weather balloon in that office.
	I said, alright.
	I said, let me go through this again.
	Did a weather balloon stuff come in from Roswell?
	He says, no, absolutely not.
	I said, you guys didn't put a weather balloon?
	He says, no, by God, he says, we're West Pointers.
	We would never have done that.
	I said, well, but everybody's saying that that's supposed to be, you know, a radar reflector from a weather balloon.
	He says, no, no, absolutely not.
	This wasn't even reflective material.
	This was a dull gray.
	None of us knew what it was.
	Did he talk about the composition of the material?
	No, all he knew was it was not weather balloon.
	It had nothing to do with weather balloon, and nobody knew what it was.
	All right, Jamie, hold tight.
	Does more of this have to unwind, or are we ready to bring on J. Bond Johnson?
	We can do it and unwind it with him.
	All right, let us do that then, all right?
	Sure.
	For those of you who really want to know what happened at Roswell and did not buy what the Air Force said the other day, stay tuned.
	Over the next several nights, we are going to be doing things that I think will astound you.
	This night will be no exception.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
	Last year, Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	My guest is Jamie Shandarea.
	727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning. My guest is Jamie Shanderea. He is an investigative journalist, and he has been working on Roswell
	for 30 years.
	Joining us shortly is J. Bond Johnson, Ph.D., who shot most of the photographs in General Ramey's office and in fact handled the debris.
	He even arranged for the photographs.
	He asked General Ramey What the material was, and General Ramey stated, quote, we don't know what the hell it is, end quote.
	Johnson was there because he was a reporter-photographer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
	His city editor had, as you learned this last hour, if you've been with us, had sent him over to the base because of a wire story saying that parts of the flying disc recovered in Roswell were now in General Ramey's office.
	His testimony is supported by General Ramey, General DuBose, and Major Marcel.
	J. Bond Johnson, Ph.D., U.S.
	Army Colonel, retired now, holds his doctorate in psychology and has an undergraduate degree in journalism, served four tours of duty at the Pentagon and one tour of duty at the White House with the National Security Council.
	At NSC, he was under Generals Haig and Scowcroft in psych ops.
	Concurrently, he is a clinical psychologist, and get this, a United Methodist minister.
	He'll join us in a moment and talk about the photographs that he took in General Ramey's office, the material that he handled.
	This all relates now to the entire Roswell story that we're going to try to unwind for you, as the Air Force did not in their news conference the other day.
	Back to it in a moment.
	Five.
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	Once again, back now to Jamie Shandarea.
	Jamie, to recap for those who might be joining us this hour.
	An explosion at Roswell.
	July 2nd, 1947.
	Debris found in a farmer's field there.
	A collection of all that material.
	And then, if I've got it correct, that material apparently was flown to Fort Worth first, and then on to Wright Field, now known as Wright-Patterson.
	Correct.
	During the time that it was at Fort Worth, in General Ramey's office.
	A small portion of it.
	A small portion of it.
	Um, it was photographed by a man we're about to bring on the air.
	In other words, somebody who was really there at the time.
	Is that about right?
	That's about right.
	And in fact, it was my discussion with Dr. Johnson that opened my eyes to this whole thing.
	Because he stated, you know, when he was in that office, they didn't talk about Weathermore.
	There was no discussion about Weathermore.
	They didn't know what it was.
	And suddenly what I found was, in researching Newspaper Microfilm, I found a Los Angeles Herald Express, the defunct paper from many years ago, and on the front page, they had indicated, Associated Press had indicated, that General Vandenberg had gone into AAF, Army Air Force, it's still at that time in July, the AAF Press Headquarters, to monitor the recovery of this flying disk.
	The Associated Press reporters were there in Washington at the AAF Press Room, and General Ramey was in telephone communications with General Vandenberg, And General Vandenberg asked him what the stuff looked like, and Ramey is quoted by the Associated Press on July 8th.
	Now, this is very important, because it's only on July 8th, Ramey tells Vandenberg, who was acting Chief of Staff at that time, because Tewi Spatz, Chief of Staff, was on vacation in the Pacific Northwest.
	He was telling Vandenberg that they didn't know what this was.
	It was foil-like material, and it could be 20 to 25 feet in diameter if reconstructed.
	Now, That's a different story than he was telling by the next day.
	Certainly is.
	Now, they were cooperating with the press.
	Now, when you back up and look at the first headline that came out on the Roswell Daily Record, it's the most strange headline of all, and there's a key word in there that tips off what the headline was all about.
	The headline says, RAAF, or Roswell Army Airfield, captures flying disk.
	Captures.
	Why would it say captures?
	Now, as I already pointed out, To those that were with us the last hour, that Blanchard did not put that, Colonel Blanchard, the base commander at Roswell, did not put that press release out on his own volition.
	He was ordered from Washington to do it because the material had already left his control.
	So only under the orders of higher command could he ever have put out that press release.
	Now the word captures it in there for a very particular reason.
	Now we've, if you go to microfilm of any library in the country, there's microfilm from a newspaper from 1947.
	I want to stop you and ask a question now.
	go do it, it's an incredible exercise. Go to June of 1947, go down toward the end of June,
	and you will find every single day a front page story, if not headline, about flying discs and
	flying saucers being seen all across the country. All right, I want to stop you and ask a question
	now. During this momentous news conference the Air Force had the other day,
	Right.
	Why weren't some of the, uh, what was, why wasn't some of the chain of evidence that you're now, uh, giving us presented, uh, and, and why weren't questions asked about these specific things during that news conference?
	Well, this goes, this, I can answer that very clearly because the... Please do.
	The, the, the very nature of the investigation as I began it in this whole thing back in 1982 with Bill Moore, in this, Integration into the intelligence community.
	One of the things that's happened is the disinformation we were talking about earlier.
	The disinformation is a very, very important process in intelligence work.
	What you find with disinformation is this.
	The bigger the disinformation program, the more important the subject matter.
	The purpose of disinformation is to protect the source of something incredibly important.
	Well, if they want to get information out about something, but they cannot allow anybody to access the source, then they have to paint it with what Winston Churchill used to call... He had the dictum originally, in the time of war, the truth is so valuable it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies.
	And that is the genesis of where disinformation comes from.
	You pack truth in, but you pack not lies out of whole cloth, But misdirection is certainly the truth.
	Yes.
	And so that's what disinformation is all about.
	Now, the problem with the press is they feel that you're lying to me.
	And if you're going to lie to me, I don't trust you and I won't talk to you.
	Well, that's unfortunate.
	I understand that, but it's unfortunate because unless you can try to insinuate yourself into a situation, understand how somebody else operates, if you're going to put a wall between you, then you're never going to get educated as to how you can deal with the situation.
	All right.
	Jamie, look, in the press conference the Air Force had, they clearly laid out the fact that all of this began not in 1947.
	They did at least ask that question.
	They said, Colonel, was any of this going on in 1947?
	No, he said.
	It didn't begin until 1953.
	Now you're talking about a chain of nearly irrefutable evidence.
	I mean, newspaper headlines, photographs, Um, General Ramey's office, what we're about to hear from Jabon Johnson, all the rest of it that occurred not in 1953, but in 1947.
	And, uh, the colonel could only talk about time compression and people forgetting dates and all the rest of it.
	But I mean, we've got, as you point out, newspaper headlines, a whole chain of evidence that occurred in 1947.
	Why didn't somebody, um, Lay this out for the Colonel and require some sort of answer.
	Well, here's what the problem is.
	The headlines we're talking about only showed up in the Western United States.
	Before that day of July 8th was over, something dramatic happened, and the cooperation the Air Force was having slammed shut.
	It was important to the Air Force initially to show some of this innocuous debris, to put a headline out that says, To show that they're in control.
	Yes.
	Because in addition to these headlines showing, you know, talking about everybody seeing these flying discs, General Twining is being interviewed, Tui Spatz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, is being interviewed, and they're saying, what are these streaking things?
	And their answer in each case was, we don't know.
	It's not ours.
	It's not experimental.
	We don't know.
	Now, that's an untenable position for the military to be in, especially the all-powerful U.S.
	military following World War II.
	We're still in a post-war period, as it were.
	Now, the fact they found this innocuous stuff, they're looking for it, there's no weapons, there's nothing dangerous here, there's nothing to say that this thing was anything more than perhaps a probe, we don't know.
	But let's show some of it, let's put it on display, let's cooperate, but let's keep the more exotic stuff, let's get it over to study.
	Now, while this was going on in Fort Worth, that very morning, July 8th, a second and much larger team, based on the reports of Marcel and Sheridan Cavett from The day before, of how much debris was in that field, a much larger contingent with trucks and manpower and aerial reconnaissance went back to the site in Roswell.
	So as the day is unfolding over in Fort Worth, they're showing this stuff, and they put out another release saying that the stuff that the press couldn't find earlier is now over in Ramey's office, and they're gonna show it.
	But then you have to ask yourself a couple questions.
	Well, why, if this was weathered, why would they put it in the General's office?
	Why not in the hangar or something?
	Why would they take it?
	Why is it so important that they put it in the General's office?
	So the contingent out in Roswell with aerial reconnaissance discovers the main part of the craft and where it landed, and the body.
	This gets reported back three channels, shot through Blanchard, on up the line, and General Clements McMullen gets it in Washington, and by the time he gets it, What has happened is Bon Johnson being the closest in proximity to the base of all the different reporters that might have had an opportunity to get over there.
	He's left his office, he's gone over to the base, he walks in, then Ramey comes in, he asks him what is this stuff, and he doesn't know what the hell it is.
	Well, at this point, let's bring J. Bon Johnson on the air with us.
	Mr. Johnson, Doctor, welcome to the program.
	Good evening.
	Welcome.
	May I ask, Doctor, how old were you when you took these photographs, when you went to General Ramey's office?
	21.
	21 years of age.
	In your present age?
	I'm 71.
	71, exactly.
	Jamie, I think I'd like to let you lead the good Doctor through an explanation of what occurred.
	All right.
	One of the things I did when I first talked to Bond was I had him go through for me how the newspaper operated.
	So I got into the mix of the day and so we could clarify more correctly the time frames.
	One of the problems I've always found is when people for many, many years past will say, well, something happened exactly at 4 o'clock.
	Well, geez, how do you remember all these years it was 4 o'clock?
	What was it that made you remember that?
	And Bond remembered it was roughly 4 o'clock when he was told to go over there.
	So as we trace through the time frame, we take him to get to the base, how long we were at the base and how long it took him to get back and so forth, everything corroborated because the day shift was gone and so forth.
	But, Bond, why don't you pick up from here and say what happened, what did the city editor say to you and what was the purpose of you going over there?
	Yes, we had gotten this alert from the wire service and the city editor came over and said, Bond, do you have your camera?
	I said, yes, it's in the trunk of my car.
	I just purchased a new SpeedGraphic 4x5 SpeedGraphic and was quite proud of it.
	Alright, you were a photographer to be clear here.
	I was primarily a reporter.
	Reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
	That's correct.
	Alright.
	At that time I worked the afternoon police run primarily and did feature stories.
	So I had my own camera just to back up myself when I was out somewhere and grab a shot here and there.
	But I was not a regular photographer as such.
	So at that point I was engaged as a photographer.
	So I jumped in my car and at that time the alert said it was being flown from Roswell to Fort Worth.
	Be specific as to what was being flown.
	The flying saucer.
	That was an Associated Press report?
	It was just about a paragraph that you get a flash alert on the wire service in those
	days and that's what it prints out on a printer and a yellow piece of paper and that's what
	he came and handed me and said it was being flown to Fort Worth Army Airfield.
	That was an Associated Press report?
	R-I-N-S or I don't know, one of the wire services.
	And so I went out there expecting to arrive there ahead of it, but it said it was at Root.
	I was surprised to find that it in fact was already there and I would have expected to be directed to some hangar I had covered as a police reporter and then I was the military reporter after the war.
	I went away and I was in the Air Corps as a pilot cadet during the latter part of the war and came back to the Star-Telegram and was assigned into the afternoon beat And covered the military bases.
	And so I had been a number of times to General Ramey's office and to the Fort Worth Army Airfield.
	I was surprised because in other instances, when there was an airplane crash, they would invariably set it up, reconstruct it in a hangar.
	And that's still done today that way.
	Sure.
	You lay it out, try to see where It fell apart, however, you know, where there was an explosion.
	As a matter of fact, they have done that with Flight 800 most recently.
	Yes, that was one that they did very meticulously, and I expected to see that kind of a thing, that I would go to some hangar and it would be, they would start to lay it out there.
	I was very surprised when they directed me to the General's office, and the General's office, as they always usually are, are quite plush, and the General had carpet on his floors, It was a large office, and that was the thing that struck me.
	After 50 years, I don't have a lot of clear recollections as to events in our memories and soundbites, but there were certain things that, you know, when it hits you, it's indelible in your memory.
	Sure.
	And there were a few things that were made indelible in my memory.
	The first was, you know, why is it in this general's office?
	And I went in and it had an acrid smell to it.
	And it reminded me of a burned building.
	As an old police reporter, I'd been in a lot of burned buildings and that's what I immediately associated the smell of this.
	Right.
	That was the first thing.
	And why would they put this on the General's nice carpet?
	And then Colonel DeBose met me and ushered me into the office and it was in Uh, wrapped up in some, uh, like meat wrapper paper.
	There were several packages around there.
	One of them, I guess the largest one, had been opened.
	But it was just kind of in a pile of stuff that didn't look like anything.
	So, my task was to, uh, try to make a picture there.
	To pose a picture, if you were.
	Sure.
	Um, and it was, so I started laying it out like a, Uh, erector set or a jigsaw puzzle or something, trying to make something so it would show up in a picture.
	I remember that I was disappointed.
	Can you remember the nature of the materials?
	Since you handled these materials, what were you handling?
	Well, I was handling something that was metallic, that was very lightweight, but was very strong.
	I remember that very well.
	It looked a lot like aluminum foil.
	I remember during the war, We collected, saved aluminum foil.
	We'd take the out of cigarette wrappers and you'd put it all together, make a ball and turn it in.
	That helped the war effort some way.
	Sure.
	And so here was this and it reminded me a lot of aluminum foil.
	However, it was not near as heavy and was actually more stiff than aluminum foil.
	So that was kind of So it didn't look quite like aluminum foil.
	It wasn't near as heavy as that.
	But it looked like it.
	Had a dull finish.
	A dull finish?
	Yes.
	It was not shiny.
	People have asked me about that.
	Was it shiny?
	That was some of the... If it was a radar reflector, I'm told that it would be shiny.
	Well, this was dull gray material.
	Not shiny.
	If I could jump in and say, that's exactly what General DeVos said.
	He said this was not reflective material.
	This was a dull gray.
	All right.
	Did it have any unusual, you said it was strong.
	Yes.
	Did it have any unusual properties with respect to resilience?
	In other words, if you were to crunch a piece of it.
	I didn't.
	I did not do that.
	I was not there to test it anyway.
	I actually was there a very short time.
	I understand.
	All right, doctor, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	So both of you stand by and we will be right back.
	My guests are Jamie Shanderea.
	And Dr. J. Bond Johnson, who was in Dr., uh, Doctor, in General Ramey's office with the materials that had allegedly just come from Roswell.
	Some of the materials.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
	Go, Art Bell.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
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	Top of the morning everybody.
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	1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Top of the morning everybody. My name is Art Bell. My guest is Jamie Shandarea,
	an investigative journalist for 30 years.
	He's been looking into Roswell for a long time.
	Also with us is Dr. Bon Johnson.
	Dr. Johnson, all those years ago, 50 years ago, coming up on that exact anniversary, was in General Ramey's office in Fort Worth, actually taking photographs of what was said to be The debris from Roswell, which actually arrived before he did at the General's office, and we'll pick it up at that point in a moment.
	Gee, I wish Colonel Haynes was here.
	Did you see the video of that water spout churning in the water off Miami?
	Did you hear about all the damage in the Twin Cities last night?
	Are you aware of the weather changing?
	Well, whether it's bad weather or it's bad behavior, and I'll leave that one alone at that point, there are lots of good reasons to have stored food on hand.
	Lots of good reasons.
	Golden Eagle Enterprises supplies exactly that, a one-year supply of food.
	Now, these are not your grandfather's sea rations.
	They're canned grains and vegetables, tasty gourmet entrees, soups, fruits, all of them oxygen-absorbed and packed in strong enamel metal cans to ensure a decade-plus shelf life.
	I have it.
	You should, too.
	And you should have it in a place where only you know where it is.
	So whether it's a weather emergency or otherwise, it just makes good common sense to have an emergency supply of food on hand.
	And by the way, this food is so good that just in case nothing happens, why, of course, you can eat your investment.
	The number to call to inquire is 1-800-447-7911.
	is 1-800-447-7911.
	That's 1-800-447-7911.
	Tell them Art Bell said to call.
	All right, back now to Jamie Shanderea and Dr. J. Bon Johnson.
	Gentlemen, you're both back on the air again.
	Jamie, pick it up where you would like.
	All right, what was going on at the exact moment that Bon Johnson was shooting those pictures is that the other team in Roswell with aerial reconnaissance was discovering the main part of the craft and the bodies. Now since this
	is all being directed by Washington, they get this back, this information back to Blanchard, get
	a ground crew over there to see what, you know, to verify. Blanchard notifies higher
	headquarters and suddenly Johnson's taking his pictures, he left and gone back to the paper and he'll
	fill you in on what was, what chaos was going on in the newspaper when he got back, the Associated
	Press brought in a wire photo machine.
	All right, well let's back up a little bit. Dr. Johnson, you said you were arranging this material
	to try to make something out of it, something that would make a photograph no doubt that you
	could take back to your editor, right?
	You had not a lot of luck with that, and so what did you end up taking?
	What pictures did you end up taking?
	Well, I just took several pictures.
	I didn't take as many as I might because there were no other angles, you know what I mean?
	It was just a pile of junk there, and I had had a little time to lay it out.
	It was, in hindsight, It seems kind of incredible that I was left alone in this room.
	And if this was important material, Colonel DeBose, Chief of Staff, had ushered me into the General's office and told me that the General would be there shortly.
	So I was setting up to get ready for the photos and laid this material out on the carpet there.
	And here I was in the room alone.
	I've only had the foresight to.
	I could have crushed the material or done a lot of things with it.
	Doctor, what did they do?
	Did they just usher you in and leave?
	Yes.
	It was only Colonel DeBose there at that time.
	And he was, he's the number two, the Chief of Staff.
	And then he went off to look for the General and then in a minute they both came back in.
	And I asked the General, as I reconstructed and from what I've read, I think now that the General had not seen the material at that time.
	Another thing that struck me and continues to strike me when I look at the photographs now.
	The photographs remind me because it's better than my memory from 50 years ago.
	But here was General Ramey.
	He came in in his Class A uniform.
	That means his frame cap, which is kind of unusual in the Air Corps in those days.
	They usually wore those four-and-a-half caps, you know, the overseas caps we call them.
	Sure.
	But he has on his frame cap, and not with the grommet out.
	Most pilots in those days had what they call the 20-minute mission crush, you know, and it kind of flopped down around your ears.
	Yes.
	The Charles C. Charles kind of gay blades.
	But here was General Ramey, very crisp in his uniform with his frame cap intact, his
	ribbons on, his formal dressy class A uniform.
	He comes in and I said, General, could I pose you here or could I get you to kneel down
	there and examine this material?
	And he did and that's what I can remember.
	When he picked up a big piece of it, it didn't bend or anything.
	It was just like cardboard at that point, as far as the stiffness of it.
	And that shows up in the pictures with Major Marcel too, that you just kind of tilt it
	up and it was not limp in any way.
	Was the material that you took the photographs with, with the General, the same material that Major Marcel posed with?
	Absolutely.
	In fact, I have compared now full negatives, uncropped negatives of both of those.
	And there, the material is laid out in the Marcel pictures precisely, and in the Newton pictures.
	The material is laid out exactly as I displayed it.
	This has not been moved at all.
	Yeah, you can overlay each picture and the debris remains the same on the floor.
	Nothing was ever changed.
	Very interesting.
	See, the problem they had was once he left that office with those pictures, they couldn't change anything.
	They would have a real problem on their hands if they had two sets of photographs with different material.
	Alright, Doctor, were you, Doctor Johnson, able to see the Air Force press conference the other day?
	Yes, I did.
	I heard it first on the radio and then saw the excerpts on the news.
	They claimed, if I heard correctly, and I'm sure I did, that none of this kind of testing involving balloons or balloon trains was going on in 1947, but rather began in 1953.
	So in other words, the material you were photographing didn't exist until 1953, according to the Air Force.
	Yes.
	In 1953, I was on active duty at the Marine Corps Air Station El Toro.
	That was during the Korean War.
	So I couldn't have been Uh, taking the pictures in Fort Worth while I was on active duty in the Marines.
	Uh, does it seem somewhat neglectful to you, Doctor, that nobody asks these questions at moments like this news conference that was held?
	I mean, there's not just a six-year gap, it's an impossible lie that was told.
	Just an absolutely impossible lie.
	So, how did you react when you heard all of this?
	Well, I think like a lot of the other press people there, it was kind of If I could hear the tittering that was going on, it seemed to be a ludicrous response from the media.
	That was my feel, and I thought that was one of the saddest comparisons.
	I remember clearly, in 1947, when General Ramey explained what's now called the cover-up, the disinformation explanation, that we all accepted it as gospel.
	I had, you know, just been in the Air Corps, and when a General said something, we saluted and said, aye, aye, sir.
	There was no question about, at all, here was a West Pointer, a man of high integrity, and there was no question, not from the press at all, as to, are you sure, or anything like that.
	Now... The Bond clarified, though, that he didn't say that in that office that day, did he?
	No, no.
	That's what you read that he had the next day, right?
	Within a couple of hours or so, he went on the radio and made that announcement.
	And when that happened, the next morning, the paper came out and it picked up that story that the General had made this explanation.
	And as far as I know, there was no discussion around the City Room or among my peers at all as to any follow-up.
	In other words, once it was spoken, That was it.
	And then we went on to the next story.
	Now, compare that today.
	How, if a general says something, the next day they tear it apart and it just fuels the fire now.
	And I think that's one of the things that's sad to me is the erosion of integrity in the government.
	Well, we all agree with you there.
	So you took these photographs, I take it you They'd fell farewell to the General and headed back to the Fort Worth Star.
	Yes, I remember calling in and the city editor said, hurry back, that they're sending over a wire photo machine from Dallas, which was 30 some odd miles.
	And at the Star-Telegram in Fort Worth, we normally did not have wire photo sending capabilities.
	When we'd have an important story, they would hurry Uh, a portable wire photo transmitter over, and so by the time I got there, back to the office, this machine was already there, and there were several people around, the technicians, flustering about, and I can remember that they bombarded me, you know, they wanted it right now.
	And I said, well, I've gotta, uh, develop it.
	Well, you know, give us wet prints.
	Uh, which a photographer hates to do.
	A photographer likes to take his time and process it properly and fix it with a hypo and so forth and dry the negative and then enlarge it and so forth.
	There was not time for that and we've done that before on deadlines and so I did that.
	I did a quick fix on it and you just wipe off the water and stick it on the enlarger and crank it out.
	You don't get as good a quality as you do otherwise.
	They were pushing me and they kept coming in the dark room and saying, when can we have it?
	When can we have it?
	So there was a lot of excitement because we were on the East Coast deadline at that time.
	And so they wanted to get this out and get it transmitted.
	So that was another strong remembrance that I have about this was the urgency.
	Now, some people have said that by that time, within the two hours, that General Ramey had already made his announcement. Well, that obviously had not
	happened because there would not then have been the urgency to get those pictures out. So it
	happened sometime later.
	Doctor, if you had had the opportunity to ask a question of Colonel Haynes, who seemed
	at a loss to explain the six-year difference between 1947 and all you are now telling us
	about and the beginning of the experiments in 1953 that he tried to say accounted for
	everything.
	What would you have asked the colonel?
	Well, I would have probably asked him about his credentials in time compression.
	I think that he... I'm not certain that he has any Well, Doctor, I sort of speculated, only half in humor, that some cigar-chomping general probably had the colonel in front of him and said, son, you're going to have to go out there and do your patriot duty.
	But general, what do I say about six years?
	And well, son, go out there and tell them about time compression.
	That's what we heard.
	But it's sad, because it's like a lot of other things that the government seems to get into, that nobody ever wants to come and just lay it out on the table and say, here guys, here's exactly what happened.
	And I've asked that question.
	I asked General Exxon, who was a right commander one time, as you know, and who flew over the wreckage when it was on the ground at Roswell.
	Yes.
	As a young captain.
	And I asked him, why?
	Wouldn't President Clinton today just call in and say, here, fellas, here it is.
	Here's the real story.
	And the answer was, there's nothing politically advantageous about clearing it up.
	Well, what is the political advantage, then, we should ask ourselves, to muddying the waters, which is the only thing that press conference did?
	Because there was so much, because Roswell was only the tip of the iceberg.
	The problem is, it would be ludicrous to just keep Roswell hidden if that's all that ever happened.
	It was only the beginning of a very long process, of which the government ultimately painted themselves in the corner 50 years ago, ultimately, and the paint is still wet.
	They don't know how to get out of it.
	It's too big.
	The labyrinth is too heavy.
	There's too much critical information at stake, and they don't know how the public will ultimately react to all the things.
	It isn't a simple matter of, oh, everybody will panic.
	All right, well, we've got to imagine, Jamie and Doctor, that after all these years, if it was as originally stated, a weather balloon, Or even as later stated a weather a balloon train that by now all of it could simply be declassified and they could tell the story straight out and yet they still are not doing that or not even close
	Or if anything, maybe moving further away from the truth.
	Because it went into a heavy control situation and all those files that the GAO couldn't find when the Representative Schiff's investigation was instigated.
	Yes, what percentage of those files were missing?
	All of them.
	All of them.
	Nothing on Roswell.
	Nothing at all.
	It just never happened.
	Nothing.
	Now that brings a bigger question mark than if they'd found a few files.
	If they'd found a few simple files, it would have been kind of logical.
	But nobody even thought enough to put a few simple files in.
	It was so important.
	You wipe the slate clean.
	It all goes into a secret category.
	Well, if the people out there believe that all of the files would disappear, or, conversely, that there never were any files, and I think we know better than that, with an incident of this magnitude, there would be many, many reports generated.
	There's no question about that, and if you don't believe that, I've got a bridge for you, because I, too, was in the more modern Air Force, and everything was done agonizingly, repetitively, carefully, and everything is documented.
	Things you wouldn't even imagine need to be documented are documented.
	That's right, and you're involved with so many generals.
	You'd have to have files.
	Yes.
	Yes, you know that Uh, on every base there's a historical officer, and his sole job is to keep the history of what went on at the base.
	He collects the morning reports, makes it consolidated, and all of that sort of thing.
	And, from what I've read, at Roswell, they have all the years that Roswell was open, except for 1947.
	And it has mysteriously disappeared.
	I spoke to General Exxon about the whole situation, and I asked him point-blank, Something other researchers hadn't done, again, and that was, other researchers had said that Exxon didn't mention MJ-12, so therefore MJ-12 didn't exist.
	And, but they didn't ask the question.
	The question begged to be asked.
	So I asked General Exxon, I said, General Exxon, have you ever heard of MJ-12?
	And he was silent for a moment, and he said, yes I have.
	That's the group that controls all the UFO material.
	And I said, well, now you'd met Bon Johnson, sir.
	And I said, now, Have you seen those pictures before?
	The ones that were in the newspaper?
	Yes.
	Yes, I have.
	And then he said to me, which kind of shocked me, he says, have you seen the other pictures of the closer shots of the stuff on the ground at Roswell?
	And I said, no sir, I haven't.
	Where are these pictures?
	He said, well, I saw them at the War College in the 50s.
	And he claimed to me that he had seen my pictures at the War College, too, which kind of surprised me, I guess.
	I guess they study weather balloons at the War College.
	Dr. Johnson, were you the only one there at that point, the only reporter, at least when you were there, taking photographs?
	Was there anybody waiting?
	Were there others?
	No.
	There were no other civilians.
	There were no other military photographers.
	At that point.
	I don't know who could have been there earlier.
	I know that anybody there earlier could not have taken any pictures because I essentially unrolled the stuff and laid it out.
	Do you have any sense of how long a period of time there was between when it arrived and it arrived before you got there and when you got there?
	How much time went by?
	I had a feeling it had been there probably less than a half hour.
	The General hadn't even gotten back to see it, and it was a brand new thing.
	They just sort of partially unrolled this one role.
	You know, if the Associated Press is correct, and I have every reason to believe they were, if the flight left Roswell at 10 a.m., and it was roughly an hour and a half flight, an hour time difference to Fort Worth, that means that Marcel had been there for some period of time, but obviously they would have had him off debriefing him.
	And so the General and or their intelligence officer, whoever would have been debriefing him, so they could report to General Vandenberg.
	It could have had other parts of the material that the General's looking at in another room, and this innocuous bunch of stuff for the press, so that they could continue with their thing, we're the top dog, it's not anything to be fearful of, and we're in control.
	And they were cooperating to that point.
	Alright, Doctor, there would be a few things that I would imagine that you would have asked as a reporter.
	For example, you probably would have asked the General, What is this stuff?
	Right.
	Did you?
	I did.
	And as Jamie reported correctly, he said he did not know.
	And I had the feeling that he was seeing this, he was interested, he picked it up and examined
	it like he was curious.
	A genuine interest.
	Absolutely.
	This was not posed for him.
	He was, I'm convinced now and was at the time, that he was seeing it for the first time.
	He was handling it for the first time.
	He didn't even take his hat off.
	When you look at the pictures, he was still wearing his hat and his Class A uniform in his own office.
	Bondi, you said something the other day.
	It was about if this was a weather balloon, how would your reaction be?
	What did you think?
	Something about would General Ramingham have had his picture taken with a weather balloon?
	No, I think that He would have resigned before he got into any kind of Mickey Mouse thing like that.
	He would have resigned?
	I think so.
	Other than have his picture taken with the weather blog?
	Sure.
	He would not have done that knowing that he would have probably been made a fool of later.
	And yet, Doctor, I'll tell you what.
	We've got a break here, so can both of you hold on?
	Sure.
	Sure.
	Alright.
	Done deal.
	Jamie Shanderea and J. Bond Johnson, who actually was in General Ramey's office, talking with the General and taking photographs of the material that had just been flown in from Roswell.
	Again, in 1947, not 1953.
	The story will continue.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell. Good evening from the high desert.
	I am here and I have two guests.
	Guest one is Jamie Shandarea.
	He is a 30-year investigative journalist who's been looking into what occurred at Roswell.
	We have been weaving the story for you and will continue to do so.
	I have a second guest.
	He is J. Bon Johnson, Dr. Johnson, who Shortly after that fatal explosion, July 2nd over Roswell, working for the Star-Telegraph in Texas, went and was assigned to go take pictures of the debris that had just been flown in from Roswell.
	And in fact did that.
	Went to General Ramey's office Not a hangar, where all of this material was laid out on the floor.
	He took those photographs, and then took them back to the Star-Telegraph, and had them developed.
	And there was a machine waiting there, which then, of course, transmitted them immediately nationwide.
	I presume to all the newspapers, for the story that was then front-page news, just about every day.
	Air Force recovers crashed flying disc.
	We'll pick the story up with somebody who was really there in a moment.
	That's back in 1947, by the way, not 1953.
	Let me talk to you for a second about the World Wide Web.
	On my website, we have a very unique thing going called the Live Webcam, and you can actually see me sitting here doing the program.
	However, at the moment, earlier today, by request, several people requested that I do it.
	My son was here, so I opened up the live cam this afternoon and took a quick snap with my son in the picture, and that's what's up there right now.
	And I'll leave it up there for about another half hour or hour, and then I will bring back the live cam.
	That's just one little piece of technology that is now on the web.
	The web is a growing, doubling every few months, resource of material that is so large, so comprehensive, that it puts any... Remember the old dictionary salesman come to your house trying to sell you a set of dictionaries?
	This puts all of that to shame.
	3.
	The Sea Crane Company.
	Back now to Jamie Shandaria and to Dr.
	Bon Johnson.
	Are you both there?
	Yes, sir.
	All right, good.
	Now, Art, you're real close on my last name.
	It's Shandoray.
	Shandoray.
	Is it Shandoraya?
	No, Shandoray.
	Shandoray.
	Shandoray.
	Sorry about that.
	Oh, no problem.
	All right.
	Doctor?
	Johnson is easier to pronounce.
	It certainly is.
	Doctor, since you were there in the General's office, we are being joined by some new radio stations at this hour.
	You were there in the General's office, you took the photographs, you took them back to the Star, had them developed, they had a machine, they sent them out then nationwide, and I presume they appeared the next day in newspapers nationwide.
	Yes.
	Is that correct?
	Right.
	But they appeared with the cover story.
	I did it with a balloon.
	You're now 71 years old, right?
	Yes.
	I'm 71.
	That's correct.
	Alright, here's somebody who's written a very nasty little fax.
	And it reads as follows, and I'm going to read it to you just so you can respond to it, Art.
	How's this for a conspiracy?
	People in their 70s realize in their aged wisdom that social security will not support them for much longer.
	The, his words, old codgers start confessing secrets of Roswell.
	Knowing full well, the youngsters will glom on to such hoaxes and will offer them spots on TV, radio talk shows, probably with lucrative results.
	Charlie in Houston.
	Now, let me say, you're not getting one penny for appearing on my program.
	Nor have I from anybody else.
	At this moment, I haven't made a dime out of this.
	Beyond my regular salary on the Star Telegram.
	So that was all, you know, whatever has happened.
	I've not made a nickel out of it.
	What today motivates you to still come forward and talk about what really happened?
	Why are you doing it?
	I haven't really come forward.
	I haven't volunteered anywhere.
	I've waited for people to call me and I might say that Over the years now, a number of reporters and writers, researchers, have contacted me, spent a lot of time asking me detailed questions.
	But Jamie Achanderay is the most thorough and meticulous researcher that has contacted me.
	So you've got the best one of the ones that I know about on your program tonight.
	And nevertheless, there's been a lot of press that have interviewed you.
	Yeah.
	Aren't you curious why some of these people who know exactly what you did and when you did it were not at that press conference querying Colonel Haynes?
	I have no knowledge of that.
	I don't know who, how the selection came, who invited There's another little factor that sneaks its ugly head in here and that is that some of the people that talked to Bond have determined to their own guesswork and an ambiguous nature of questions that Bond actually wrote the cover story that appeared in the paper with the pictures.
	Now there are certain researchers that say that Bond indeed General Ramey said to Bond, oh this is balsa wood and aluminum foil and burned rubber.
	Now Bond never said that, and Ramey never said that to him.
	That was part of the cover story that came out on the 9th.
	Yes, and just prior to the end of the hour, Dr. Johnson said that he believed that General Ramey would have resigned rather than have his picture taken with a weather balloon.
	Correct, Doctor?
	Well, yes, to engage in subterfuge to that degree.
	In his own office, I just cannot conceive of that happening.
	Would you imagine the General would have known a weather balloon when he saw it?
	Well, I can remember being at the various bases where I was stationed during World War II, and it was a common thing.
	We didn't have the radar and satellites and all that, of course, in those days.
	And I can remember, like, in the early in the morning, seeing a balloon go up.
	And at one time I was stationed, my barracks were right across the street from the weather Uh, observatory, and they would have several balloons go up in a day.
	And as they go up, they get bigger, you know, as the air gets thinner and so forth.
	So that was a common thing.
	And, uh, certainly every pilot, as General Ramey was, would know what a weather balloon was and the, uh, uh, the attachments that they hooked to it.
	Well, that's exactly what, uh, General DuBose, who was at, in 1947, the, uh, Colonel and Chief of Staff, and I asked him very specifically, I said, You say this is not a weather balloon, but do you have any experience with weather balloons?
	He says, absolutely!
	We used them during the war.
	We used them for vectoring, for targets, for everything.
	I said, did General Ramey?
	Did he have experience?
	Of course, we flew missions together.
	We all had extensive experience with weather balloons.
	This was not a weather balloon, he emphasized.
	Well, just as Major Marcel said as well.
	Absolutely, and he said it in several So it wasn't a weather balloon?
	It was not part of a weather balloon or a balloon train?
	A radar reflector train or anything else?
	Anything of that sort.
	That's clear.
	And you're clear about that, Dr. Johnson?
	Yes.
	I think there's no doubt in anybody's mind.
	The other thing is an interesting thing.
	Here was this material that was obviously burned.
	Yet, in a weather balloon that we used, we used helium and it does not burn.
	So there would have been nothing to ignite a wreckage coming down.
	That's a very good point.
	Absolutely perfect point.
	Did General Ramey have anything to say or have any knowledge that he imparted to you about the The origin of the material, in other words, where it had been found, was there any background that you got?
	I doubt if he even was that brief.
	I think he was just coming into it.
	I think that, you know, when, as I, my recollection or my reconstruction of this whole thing is that when Marcel went out and, as a Major, gathered some of this up, he goes into his boss, the Colonel, the Commander at Roswell, and uh... he doesn't know what to do with it so he calls up
	his boss general ramey
	and gives him a report and general ramey says well bring it down here and let me
	look at it that would be the logical
	kind of thing and then general ramey gets on the horn and calls washington and
	says what am i supposed to do with this
	that's my uh...
	read on the whole sequence of things Did you write the story?
	I did, because I did not have the information that was contained in the story at that time.
	It had not been released.
	When I went home, I was working overtime at the time I got through the pictures, so I ducked out pretty quickly.
	I had a stack of phone calls when I got back to the office.
	all of the photo services and everybody of course wants an exclusive photograph.
	Well that was pretty frustrating because I didn't have any exclusive photographs.
	I didn't take that many and there was nothing novel about the various parts of it.
	So I got out as soon as I took care of those calls then I went home and the announcement
	had not been made and I didn't even know about it until I picked up the paper the next morning.
	Now, there's a very interesting thing that happens here, Art.
	Certain researchers are saying that Bond did write that story, and that he's changed his story.
	They say he wrote that, but now he's saying he didn't write that.
	So if you stood somebody there, and he's saying that, and Bond's saying, no, he didn't write it, how could you prove who's telling the truth?
	By having Dr. Johnson on the air.
	There's an even more finite way to tell the truth.
	And that is, we can prove categorically that Bond did not write the story on July 9th.
	Alright, how?
	Okay, you take the front page of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
	You look at every article on there, and every single one, except for one article, has a byline.
	Now, bylines are, as in radio credits, as in movies credits, as in anything, byline is extremely important.
	It's your meal ticket.
	You bet.
	And a front page story, is even a bigger meal ticket. You betcha. It's the same as
	the director that has a blockbuster is better than having three that didn't do so well. All right, so if Bond
	had written that story, there would have been his byline on it, but there is no byline.
	Was there attribution for the photographs?
	Yes.
	There was.
	So your name was attached to the bottom of the photograph or something?
	And when it was transmitted on the wire photo, we now have copies and I have been sent copies of these pictures with the cut lines still attached and I get credit line on all of them as the photographer.
	And who had the byline for the story itself?
	Nobody.
	There was none at all?
	There was no byline.
	No.
	Here's the curious thing about that.
	No byline.
	Not even Fort Worth Star-Telegram byline.
	Nothing.
	At all.
	And that same article.
	I don't think I've ever seen that.
	Word for word, that same article shows up in other newspapers with no attribution to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, no attribution to Don Johnson.
	None at all.
	Now, there was a category that happened like that.
	And that was a military release.
	Yes.
	Military release, there is no byline.
	Oh, well, of course not.
	The Star certainly wasn't going to put their name to it.
	So what happened was, Bond goes home, the wind goes out of the sails, the military scrambles immediately, they put together this press story, they hand deliver it to the Star-Telegram, and they send it out on the wire.
	How do you know that?
	Well, because that exact story, word for word, paragraphs in some cases, are in articles all over the country.
	As we all know today, when you watch television, watching CBS, and they're doing a sports show, and they need to show a baseball game that NBC covered, it says, Courtesy of NBC.
	Now that is a courtesy, but it's a, by God, you better do it, because we'll sue you if you use our material.
	Yes.
	But the same thing in the press business.
	If you use an article that's generated by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, then you have to give attribution to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
	Right.
	It's their lifeblood.
	that gives them the recognition and stature within the media.
	I understand.
	So with no attribution in any paper and chunks of that article and the entire article in
	total appear in newspapers all over the country, there's only one solution.
	It was the military relief.
	Dr. Johnson, when you saw the article, did you go back to your employers at the Fort
	Worth Star-Telegram and ask them about that?
	Did that even occur to you?
	I don't think so.
	I just took it that, well, they explained it and it was a dead story.
	In my mind, it didn't even occur.
	But weren't you curious about who wrote it?
	No, that would be, I assumed, you see, I was the military reporter for the paper.
	Right.
	And I got handouts from all the different branches and bases and we never I gave a byline to a military writer, to a press, a military press release.
	Was that the only exception to the lack of a byline?
	No, there were other stories where you don't get bylines, but front page stories like that, had I written the story, it certainly would have merited a byline and would have gotten it, as I did for the photo credit.
	But there was none on that.
	Now also in the Roswell paper I've seen the reproductions of that.
	There's no byline on the stories out of the Roswell paper about this.
	So again that would indicate that those were military handouts.
	Well it seems to me this is an evidence trail that we could follow if there are still alive some of the editors who would have received these handouts or this News that they were apparently told to print?
	Who knows?
	And same deal in Roswell.
	Couldn't we go and find some newspaper people and say, hey, look, where did you get the story?
	Sure.
	Yeah, I think you'd find the same thing that Bond's telling you right now.
	They'd say, well, gee, you know, there's no pylon.
	It's a military story.
	The only solution is the military gave us that story.
	It's public domain.
	We don't have to credit anybody.
	There's no AP line.
	There's nothing.
	There's no Attribution, no byline at all.
	And it's the only one on the front page of this Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
	All right.
	Let me ask you now about the nature of the story itself.
	What, Jamie, or Dr. Johnson, did that story say with your photographs?
	Well, the story says that this is a... It's confusing in one sense, because they were never clear as to exactly what kind of a weather gadget this was supposed to be.
	As the story started to trickle out, the General says it's some kind of a weather gadget.
	Well, they finally decided to call it a certain type of a weather balloon.
	And what they did was... Remember, out of that office, there were seven pictures taken.
	In the sequence of pictures, the last picture is of a warrant officer, Irving Newton.
	So, in the sequence of pictures, you have two of General Ramey.
	It would have been as speed graphic as Bond said he had.
	So, he puts the plate in, he shoots a picture of the General, pulls the plate out, turns it over, takes it back in, shoots another picture.
	That's two of the General.
	Then, as a courtesy, he has the Chief of Staff, Colonel DuBose, join him in the picture, widens the shot a little bit, shoots one of the two of them, pulls the plate out, turns it over, shoots another one.
	So it's the same basic setup.
	Then, there are two pictures of Jesse Marcel, Major Marcel, in the exact same position, so we assume then that was shot the same way.
	Then there's one picture that we've been able to find of Irving Newton.
	Now that gives us a new player in the deck here.
	We know what General Ramey said to his boss.
	We know what he said to Bon Johnson.
	He said, we don't know what this is.
	It's an oil-like material, but we don't know what it is.
	We know what General DeBose said.
	He was then Colonel Chief of Staff.
	He said this was not, categorically not, a weather balloon.
	We didn't put one in that room.
	One did not come in from Roswell.
	We know what Jesse Marcel said.
	This is not a weather balloon.
	This is the real stuff.
	We know what Bon Johnson said.
	But Herbie Newton becomes the odd duck in the crowd.
	He's ordered off of his post.
	And to come in and tell the press what a weather balloon was like.
	All right, we'll pick it up on that point after the bottom of the hour, and that's where we are right now.
	So what you're hearing is the story of what really did occur, or at least a portion of what really did occur, in
	1947, not 1953.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is CBC.
	When you tune in to Coast to Coast AM, you never know what might happen,
	might happen but then again neither do I even though I'm Art Bell host of the program.
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	When I pick up the phone, the caller's on the air.
	If you like that sort of unplanned, impromptu excitement, join me right here for Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell, host of a show called Greenland Now.
	That title does not ordinarily refer to the place you go when you fall asleep on Sunday, July 6th.
	The name of the show is particularly appropriate.
	Guests are going to be Pat and Jim Frege.
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	Collect your dreams.
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	Call Art Bell toll free west of the Rockies at 1-800-614-7000 Tell me, do you think truth matters?
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	Tell me, do you think truth matters? Does it matter to you?
	Does it matter less and less or more and more after 50 years?
	Jamie Chandra is my guest.
	He's an investigative journalist, has been so for about 30 years, working very hard on Roswell.
	Also with me, Dr. J. Bond Johnson, who was the photographer then for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and took pictures of the materials that had been flown from Roswell Uh, 24 at Worth.
	And then, I guess, ultimately on to, uh, Right Pat.
	I will get back to them in a moment.
	That's 1-800-232-5665.
	You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
	Tell them Art Bell sent you.
	Back to my guest now.
	And, uh, Jamie, are you there?
	Yes, I am.
	Dr. Johnson.
	I'm here.
	Okay.
	Doctor, is there any way in the world that you could have written that story and it somehow has time compressed or somehow slipped out of your mind?
	There was no reason for me to write this story because I did not even have the information when I left.
	It was still a live story.
	In other words, the cover-up story had not been issued.
	And so I would not have had that information.
	That came sometime later.
	But let me ask you a question here.
	If you'd walked in that office and they said it was a weather balloon, would you have shot a picture?
	No, and I certainly wouldn't have rushed back to the office.
	I wouldn't have been met by this hubbub of folks from Dallas who'd come over and were frantic to get the pictures wet so they could send them out because it would have made no sense.
	It was a dead story as soon as they put the cover story up.
	The big question here comes now is then why did they suddenly slam the door on that?
	Why did they lock that door?
	And what General DuBose told me is The General Clements McMullin called him and told him to put out the cover story.
	Get everybody out of that office and get them out now.
	So that's who you're saying ordered the cover story?
	General Clements McMullin, who was then Acting Director of the Strategic Air Command from Washington by telephone, ordered General DuBose, who was then Colonel DuBose, Chief of Staff to General Ramey, who was the 8th Army Air Force's Commanding General, he told him Put out the cover story, shut the door to that office, now.
	Jamie, how do you know that to be true?
	Because that's exactly what he told me happened.
	Now, here's what he said happened.
	He said, and then General McMullen said, you pick up every piece of stuff in that office, on the floor in Ramey's office.
	Right.
	You put it in a sealed container.
	You lock it to the wrist of a courier you trust.
	He says, and I chose Colonel Al Clark, who was the base commander at Carswell here in Fort Worth.
	He says, and I escorted him to a B-26.
	I sent him to Washington with this material to meet General McMullin.
	Now, in the Dallas Morning News paper, the intelligence officer from Carswell, there in Fort Worth, was telling a reporter at around 5.30, according to the article, when asked, where is this stuff now?
	He said, well, it's locked in the General's office and It's just a weather balloon.
	Well, that's patently absurd.
	Why would you lock the door of the office if it's a weather balloon?
	The point is, they locked that office because they removed all that material, which confirms what General DuBose was saying, and sent it off to Washington.
	So, the order came down prior to it being sent to Washington, it was given to a courier, and that is the moment the cover-up began.
	That is the moment the cover-up began.
	The question comes down to why?
	Why is it cooperating?
	Why, all of a sudden, at approximately 6 o'clock forward time, why did the Shroud of Secrecy descend on them?
	And the answer is simple because the second team over in Roswell, concurrent with Bonds
	in there shooting those pictures, he leaves, word comes down the line, oh my God, we found
	the main part of the craft, there are bodies.
	And in Washington they go nuts and they say shut it down and shut it down now.
	Of course.
	And only that or something of that magnitude could account for that kind of curtain coming
	down, not the fact that somebody had, well, already I'm beginning to feed the Air Force
	story because the balloon trains were not around.
	Well, actually they were around, and that's what that six-pound paper was saying earlier, that the balloon trains were around in 1947.
	But the later press conference was trying to answer all this business about bodies, Burn victims and all that kind of thing.
	Dr. Johnson, were you at that time hearing any stories that early about bodies, about craft, all the rest of it?
	No, there was no hint at that time about any bodies.
	In any articles that I've read, certainly nobody said anything to me about bodies.
	I'm sure, I'm convinced now.
	That they had not discovered the bodies at the time that I was there taking the pictures.
	I think that that came a short time later and I agree with Jamie as to the dramatic change in the attitude of the Air Corps people.
	See what happens when you have something like a real signpost in the case and again this segment going to Fort Worth is the only finite timeline and you can trace it forward and you can take it backward.
	When you take it backward what you do is you realize it couldn't have been A, you know, bodies found on the 4th of July as some researchers are saying that, you know, when they change the dates and switch all these different things around, those things become patently absurd because that would require that Jesse Marcel didn't know that the entire base was called on command to go out and, you know, retrieve craft and bodies, and he was still playing around with a rancher that had debris.
	None of this press conference would have ever happened.
	It wasn't really even a press conference.
	It was a press announcement and they were hoping press to come in and take pictures.
	They did that deliberately to show that they, the military and the government, could satisfy the public's need for protection.
	That they were in control.
	It was a psychological ploy because they found this anomalous debris.
	This innocuous stuff.
	Nobody knew what it was, but there was nothing dangerous.
	There's no big power supplies.
	There's no weapons.
	There's no bodies.
	Nothing to be worried about.
	Because this was apparently blowout from an explosion above the ground.
	Right.
	As described by people who saw the crash site with a huge gouge in the ground, the thing apparently blew out above the ground, blew this innocuous debris out of the crash, it hit the ground and gouged, and came down a few miles away.
	Alright, again, aside from the debris photographed in General Ramey's office by Dr. Johnson, how much more debris, quantity-wise, had been collected?
	According to Major Marcel, the belly of a B-29 was quite full of debris.
	They had taken apparently everything that was brought back, at the point, everything that they had in the two vehicles, certainly, was at that morning, sent over.
	So he had the, you know, had I-beams, he had everything.
	So everything he could stuff in a 42 Buick and everything that we put in a Jeep Carriol was in the belly of that plane, waiting for further transfer.
	And then there's another point here.
	One of the things that the military is very good at is you never go to higher command unless you're really sure that you're not stepping out of line.
	That's right.
	Because nobody, nobody wants to get their tail fried.
	That's right.
	And in this case you've got a major who has to go back to his own colonel, the base commander, and show him what he's got.
	That colonel then goes to his commanding general, then goes to his commanding general in Washington, and everybody gets in the picture.
	And in addition to General Ramey, the 8th Army Air Force's commanding general, telling General Vandenberg he didn't know what it was, in that same article it indicates they've also notified the FBI in Dallas.
	And the FBI is going to come in and look at this material if they can get there before the plane leaves for right field.
	Now, I'm sorry, but you just don't go to that effort.
	You would never go to an outside agency.
	Is there any way, in Dr. Johnson's photographs, That the material depicted can be positively identified as what the Air Force is calling a balloon train?
	No.
	Here's the kind of analogy I'll give you.
	If I lay down on the floor, and you, Orbel, stood over me, and your wife stood there, and Bon Johnson stood there, and somebody took a picture, you could argue with experts until hell froze over, from morticians saying, well, the guy's dead.
	From actors saying, no, no, no, he's acting.
	No, no, no.
	He's fainted.
	I've seen people that faint before.
	You're right.
	The only people that could tell you are the people who stood there in that room and knew exactly the circumstances that went on.
	Well, we have one of them here, Dr. Johnson.
	And, Doctor, would you personally have been familiar with a balloon?
	Or a portion of something that would have been like a balloon, a balloon train, whatever they want to call it?
	No, I would not have been close to one.
	I saw them flying, you know, over the bases.
	The weather that the meteorologist would set up.
	But doctor, you would not have known.
	No, I would not have known.
	If, as all descriptions of these radar reflectors, either simple foil or paperback foil, would you have been familiar with foil and or paperback foil?
	There's some interesting things when you go back and read the articles that were published the next day.
	Uh, when they describe the wreckage, they describe it as covering about a half mile by a mile.
	Right.
	Now, that's a lot of wreckage.
	It certainly is.
	A wonder balloon, or even multiple, would cover that kind of a space.
	This would be something that you would expect, like the 747 that crashed in Scotland, that would cover that kind of a terrain.
	Well, you know, Charles Moore, who was involved in the Mogul balloon projects which were supposedly secret at that time,
	has made the statement that they think this was, and they have the number of the specific flight,
	that they had launched that balloon on or about July 2nd.
	But the problem is this.
	He claims, and all records show, there was an electrical storm going on. He claims that the
	balloons were already inflated, but the storm came up, so it destroyed their ability to run the tests that they were
	running.
	Where were these balloons to be launched from?
	I think they were coming out of White Sands.
	White Sands?
	Now, so what he's saying is this, and here, follow this and you'll see the fallacy in what the statement says.
	He says, because the balloons were already inflated, they couldn't keep the balloons.
	You can't, you know, re-inflate them, you can't reuse them.
	So, they went ahead and launched the balloons.
	Now, I can accept that as far as that goes.
	The problem is, he's indicating then, they would have sent up all the hardware also.
	No, I'm sorry.
	Makes no sense at all.
	Everybody had to deal with very tight budgets.
	At that point, you were dealing with an aborted mission.
	An aborted mission.
	And you were just going to cut all the gear off of those balloons.
	I understand.
	I understand.
	So it would have been only the balloons.
	That's right.
	And the thing is, in those photographs, there's no inflatable material.
	There's no neoprene.
	There's no nothing there.
	Doctor, reflecting back now after all these years since you were there, is there anything else you can tell us?
	Is there anything else you remember that would be helpful or that when you recall hearing today's explanations angers you or you want to say?
	Well, I guess I've said again that the number of the I have to agree partly with the gentleman that sent you the facts a little while ago in that some people have exploited these things.
	Of course.
	There are people who've come up with a theory and so it's a new angle they can publish another book or another article or whatever and so they rush in with that theory and I've had people put words in my mouth and saying now this is what happened and they quote me When I didn't say that, and that offends me in hindsight.
	And then I go over to Barnes & Noble and look at the proliferating number of UFO publications, books there.
	They all say the same thing.
	They pick up what starts out as a rumor or a theory, then it becomes a rumor, and then it becomes fact.
	And then other people will pick it up and put it in the next book.
	They don't go back and check to see whether it was Correct in the beginning.
	So history gets remade is what happens by these people.
	So that's that.
	So you are constantly misquoted.
	Yes.
	When did the story begin, Doctor, or when did the press begin to come to you and suggest that you had written the story?
	Nobody ever asked me that directly.
	I've seen it in print, but nobody ever asked me whether I wrote the story or not.
	They just went ahead and assumed that.
	Never even asked me.
	I see.
	This is a very, very important point, because then obviously the origin of this story is a complete mystery, and as you have both pointed out, it was very unlikely that a story would be written without a byline that appeared on the front page of why it would have been a very proud moment for any reporter that had written a story that would be then rewritten all around the country.
	That's correct.
	And so that didn't happen.
	If it was even generated by anybody at Fort Worth Star-Telegram, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram would have taken credit and insisted on attribution and other printings.
	And there's no attribution to that exact same article and chunks of that article all over the country.
	Again, I hearken back.
	You're saying balloon trains were in use in 1947, but Colonel Haynes seemed to suggest That the, uh, the dummies, uh, the other more exotic things that were shown being launched in film, in this news conference, did not even begin until 1953, or am I getting that wrong?
	Well, no, you're getting that absolutely right.
	Not only that, if you remember in the, in the video they put together, you remember those, like, disc-like objects that were coming down?
	Ah, yes, I remember.
	1972, from the Viking Project.
	1972?
	Yes.
	That's the, that's the, you know, we saw a mix of footage there from probably, probably 56 through 72.
	I don't even think there was anything shown there from 53.
	You know, and the dummies clearly in those videos were six feet tall.
	Oh yes.
	But when Colonel Weaver quoted the fact that, was quoted as the fact that this story was coming out, he claimed that those dummies were three to four feet in height and that's why the mistake was made.
	Which is I can patently observe it, but you see... Okay, Jamie, we will continue with you after the top of the hour, but Dr. Johnson, I think we're going to be finishing with you here.
	Okay.
	All I want to say to you is this.
	Now, fortunately, you are still alive to tell us about the misquotes and about what didn't happen and about what really did happen.
	After you are gone, short of the record we're establishing right now, they will begin to say anything they want and get away with it, of course.
	That's that.
	So, do you feel a need, beyond what you're doing right now, to record for history what really did happen?
	Well, I don't know.
	I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, obviously.
	I just... Well, I mean, even your portion of it, so that when you are gone, you're not misquoted.
	The story is not retold.
	History is not again rewritten.
	Yes, again, Jamie has written the most accurate stories because he spent the most time and has detailed it out.
	He has written the most accurate interviews of any of the other reporters.
	So his articles are out there.
	All right.
	Well, I truly, Doctor, want to thank you for staying up this late and being with us and for telling us what really did happen.
	It was a very, very valuable couple of hours or so with you.
	It's been a pleasure.
	All right, Doctor.
	Thank you.
	You bet.
	Take care.
	All right.
	Yes, sir.
	When we get back, I would like, if I could, to open the phone lines and allow the audience to begin asking questions.
	Because we are going to begin to... We're going to begin to, frankly, move off into areas that now go way past what you have just heard.
	And begin to talk about the actual crash of the craft, and that's where we're going to pick all this up when we continue with Jamie Chanderais.
	and I hope I'm beginning to get that correct.
	I'm going to go ahead and get started.
	Okay.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	702-727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	If you listen carefully, we will take your breath away. She sings about a secret place
	in time.
	A secret place in time.
	That kind of defines Roswell in 1947, doesn't it?
	A secret... time.
	Roswell, 1947.
	Very secret.
	My guest is Jamie Chanderet.
	I think I'm finally getting his name down.
	And with us for the last couple hours has been Bon Johnson.
	Bon Johnson ...was the photographer who took the pictures of the debris in General Ramey's office.
	He, at that time, was a reporter for the Fort Worth Star.
	And so that history doesn't get mixed up, we've spent a couple of hours detailing what really did happen.
	In a moment, the story continues to, if you will excuse the grab of the book title, a day or two after Roswell.
	888-G-O-L-B-K-R-C Alright, Jamie Chandure is an investigative journalist.
	He is on his way now to Roswell, has made a stop in Southern California, that's where he is now, and by tomorrow, Jamie, I take it, you'll be in Roswell?
	That's correct.
	Alright, let's try and pick up the story now and develop it from the doctor.
	In other words, we know, we've laid out what happened.
	Alright, now there's still one individual that was in that room that we haven't accounted for yet.
	And that would be?
	That would be the low man on the totem pole.
	He was a warrant officer and he was a weather officer.
	And he was insinuated into the picture at the point of the cover story.
	Insinuated?
	Insinuated.
	In other words, he had no reason to be there or anything else.
	But he was on the late shift, meaning that the other personnel had gone home.
	Yes.
	He was alone at the weather station when he got a call from General Ramey himself ordering him to abandon his post, come over to the office, And tell the people there how weather balloons function.
	I see.
	Now, where is this man now?
	Is he alive?
	Yes, yes.
	He's in Texas.
	Texas.
	Now, the problem with this man, unfortunately, and I'm sure he's really a very nice man, but he is, like the majority of people, he's not a good witness.
	What do I mean by that?
	His story changes.
	His story changes as he hears things.
	He kind of fits into the picture and his story expands and it changes.
	Only one aspect of his story remains the same.
	He was originally interviewed in 1979, I believe it was, by Bill Moore in preparation for the book The Roswell Incident.
	Right.
	At that time, he told the story that the General ordered him to leave his post.
	He said, but General, I'm here alone.
	He said, get your ass over here now.
	That was a direct quote, and that's always been the same quote.
	And I'm sure he would never forget it, in general ordering him off his post.
	No, you wouldn't forget it.
	But there would have to be something very extreme for the general to do that.
	It wouldn't be simply to get him over to identify a weather balloon, but they wanted a low man to come in and kind of burst the bubble and tell people how a weather balloon functions.
	They wanted cover.
	Exactly.
	And they wanted to cover, they wanted an extreme measure now.
	So they have him come over.
	They're saying that, you know, something's been found, and they just want him to telepress how a weather balloon functions.
	He stands there, tells them how the Roland Fond radar reflector works off the balloons, and then he was ushered into General Ramey's office.
	A picture was shot of him with the same debris, and he was sent back to his post.
	All right, so he got to see the debris?
	Yes.
	He would know Weatherbloon perhaps even better than the General or anybody else.
	Yeah, but here's the problem.
	Today he's saying it was Mylar in that room, that Jesse Marcel was in the room, and they were in a big argument as to whether this was a flying saucer or not, and that Marcel was showing him stuff with writing on it, and that Marcel was saying this was alien stuff, and And the little green man had written it, and he was saying, no, no, no, it's Japanese writing, and so forth.
	I said, no, excuse me, maybe I'm confused here.
	You're saying that you and Jesse Marcel were arguing in that room about flying saucers?
	He said, oh, yeah, yeah.
	So in other words, you don't buy the rest of the story?
	Well, here's the problem.
	In 1979, he said he never met Jesse Marcel.
	And Jesse Marcel, in every interview he ever had, he said he was never allowed to talk to anybody at the bait, other than his debriefers.
	That was it.
	And when his picture was taken, he said the photographer was only allowed in the room far enough to take the picture, not to touch anything.
	He couldn't ask Marcel a question, and the photographer had to leave the room.
	All right, so you've got a problem with that portion.
	I have a problem with him.
	You know, unfortunately, Irving Newton, his name, he has an incredible bias against little green men and the whole thing.
	Of course, there was no Mylar in 1947.
	We weren't buying anything from the Japanese.
	And clearly there could not have been a confrontation in that room at the point of cover-up.
	That's the last thing in the world that the Raimi or any of us would have tolerated.
	All right, then we'll leave that alone at this point and we'll move to what you know about the day after or the day after the day after Roswell.
	All right, well, so right at that point, at roughly six o'clock, bodies and that whole thing are noted, duly, and with great Alright, we're getting into a very different kind of area.
	In other words, at a different point.
	How far from the debris site are we talking about now?
	The original debris site.
	Here's the interesting thing.
	I had received the MJ-12 documents in 1984.
	In December of 1984.
	And Bill Moore and I researched those things.
	We did not go public with them.
	We didn't know if we had a hoax on our hands.
	We didn't know if somebody was setting us up.
	We didn't know.
	Of course.
	We had to examine these things as thoroughly as we possibly could.
	Like receiving the Pentagon Papers or something.
	Exactly.
	Or Hitler Diaries or whatever.
	You just don't go out and say, whoa, look what I've got.
	Right.
	We researched that for two and a half years.
	That's how cautious we were.
	We followed every nitty detail.
	We followed phone records, dates, everything.
	Everything you could imagine.
	And then we decided we needed, you know, more help.
	And we had given some of the stuff to Stan Friedman to do a parallel examination going on at the same time.
	Right.
	But all the while we're trying to stay very tight to the chest.
	Because we didn't want to begin circulating our own information out there and feeding ourselves our own information.
	We needed to find out, did anybody else have this kind of stuff?
	You put it out, and it comes back to you in a different form, and it seems to confirm something for you.
	Exactly.
	You tell two friends, and then they tell two friends, and pretty soon tell me, oh gee, I heard this, and I heard it from this guy.
	I think it confirms, but it doesn't confirm anything.
	You're just feeding yourself your own stuff.
	So there are very legitimate reasons for not telling what you've got while you try to examine it.
	Now one of the things I was looking for, and we were developing even more and more sources, this one initial source that we had.
	In the beginning, inside the intelligence community, they began to grow.
	And more and more individuals were feeding us information.
	But they seemed to be out of the same information loop.
	All of them, high level, all of them we could access in their agencies.
	We knew who they were.
	These were not anonymous people to us.
	Our agreements with them were we keep their names confidential.
	Where in the whole concept of the aviary group, we gave them bird code names.
	And the reason for that is we're talking on the telephone.
	We're talking about a certain person.
	We didn't want to use their name even on the phone.
	So you are the one who originated the whole bird code name aviary thing?
	Absolutely.
	Just to protect your sources?
	Protect our sources.
	All right, that clears that up.
	And I've heard all of the other stories.
	I've seen stuff on the internet about it and everything else.
	Nobody knows who the sources are.
	There's only one or two people within that aviary who have made their identities public and we're in agreement that that's okay to do that.
	Um, so, while that's going on, I was always looking for some parallel way outside of testimony of key individuals who you have every reason to follow the trail that they're pointing you on to.
	But I was looking for some way to validate these documents outside of that kind of testimony.
	Outside of this constant strain of trying to dissect where is the disinformation, What can we validate in that slogging process that you have to go through?
	Journalism.
	Journalism.
	And hardcore journalism.
	You can't simply take an assumption and go out and just find something that proves your assumption and forget everything else.
	Well, you can today.
	Well, too many people unfortunately do.
	You're right.
	I mean, it seems to be the norm.
	Unfortunately, you read some of these books and they start off with a paragraph that says Well, we think he was talking about this, and then two paragraphs later, the we think turned into a hard fact.
	Uh, Jamie, I've got to stop you, and I've got to tell you, I've got personal experience in this area with regard to the entire Hillbob incident, and I watched the national press at work, and it's sickening.
	In other words, the national press today decides And I can't tell you what the genesis of that decision is, but they decide they will tell a story in a certain way.
	And God help anybody who gets in the way or tries to get in the way of their telling of that story in that way with facts.
	They simply ignore them.
	And they go right ahead and tell it the way they want to tell it.
	Yeah, and unfortunately, it becomes like a group mentality.
	Once one starts in that direction, then they all flock in that same direction.
	I mean, this is something I know personally from a couple of recent incidences.
	It's a very, very sad thing.
	But that is not the way you proceeded to investigate.
	I can't do it.
	If I approach a situation, what has to happen for it to work for me If it's an individual I'm talking with, I have to first of all qualify the individual.
	And it's not exactly sufficient to say, well, he was there at the right place at the right time.
	You have to try to get a few more things factored in.
	And sometimes it's very difficult to do.
	But secondly, then you have to qualify the statements being made.
	You know, the problem was like with General DuBose.
	People went and talked to him.
	And like he said to me subsequently, he said, I said, in general, those were rambling recollections that when you were talking to these other people, weren't they?
	He said, well, yeah, that's exactly what they were.
	You know, I didn't have anything to focus... I had never really gone through the whole story.
	I said, have you ever told this whole story?
	He said, no, I'd never told this whole story before until you... There was the pictures.
	That jogged my memory.
	Well, you know, if a person goes on in a court case or whatever, they're allowed to have diaries and everything so they can focus their attention and memories to exactly the time frames And what was going on?
	Sure.
	And it's only fair since on the table already are these pictures that were taken in that office.
	What do we want to know?
	We want to know what's in the pictures.
	Usually the attorney will say, let me refresh your memory.
	Precisely.
	Or the end of a photograph or whatever.
	Yeah, or do you need to refresh your memory, sir?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Well, if we may, let us return because I want to understand the chronology of what happened.
	After the doctor went back, the story went out.
	You're telling me then there was a second site found, and I would like to ask you again, how far was the second site where the craft and the bodies were, supposedly, from the original crash site?
	At least two and a half miles.
	Two and a half miles?
	Right.
	Now here's what, a very interesting thing happens here.
	If you take the MJ-12 documents, and you look at the statements being made in there, and they reference the Roswell crash, and they say that bodies were found, And the wreckage was found.
	The bodies had apparently ejected from the craft.
	Right.
	And they were badly deteriorated due to the almost one week of exposure prior to being discovered.
	Okay?
	One week?
	Right.
	And they were discovered by aerial reconnaissance.
	Now wait a minute.
	The explosion?
	Happened on July 2nd.
	Over Roswell.
	Occurred July 2nd.
	Aerial reconnaissance is out there on July 8th.
	On July 8th.
	So we've got six days.
	Right.
	The almost one week.
	Alright.
	If those bodies then are being discovered by this second team and then it's being detailed that you know the first stuff that there was no you know no power supply no nothing's being discovered but then the main part of the crafts and bodies are being discovered two and a half or so miles away but a venture wouldn't have seen it because that terrain out there you can't see two and a half miles you know I mean flat land so he wouldn't have seen the craft he wouldn't have seen any of those things nor had any reason to go in that direction to look for So, what happens all of a sudden is, when you take the signposts in the case, now signposts are extremely important if you can find them, because it gives you something to anchor where you're going from.
	So, you had to get to that signpost and you can back up from it.
	Now, logic tells you that if at 6 o'clock in Fort Worth time, the lid, the shroud of secrecy descended for all time on the subject of UFOs, bodies, craft, and everything else, It had to be a momentous moment.
	Because I've been able to track it through the Washington Post, the New York Times, and all the rest of them.
	They say that even at a certain hour, a press blackout descended on Roswell.
	Well now, all the attention had already been diverted away from Roswell.
	But why would they have to put a press blackout on it at that point?
	Because that's where all the activity seemed to be emanating from.
	Now... Alright, what proof do we have of that activity?
	In other words, we should assume, I would assume, that after the good doctor took his photographs and the rest of the materials got on an airplane by courier and went to right path, is that correct?
	Right.
	It was called right field at the time.
	Right field.
	You would think then that the activity, in other words, the cleanup would have been done, it would be all over.
	How do we document what occurred after that?
	Well, that's where the secrecy becomes monumental.
	That's where the roadblocks all start, is at that point.
	Now, there are a lot of different people that surface at different points and say, oh, well, we saw bodies, we saw things, we saw them, but it was on the 4th of July, and it was over here, and it was over there.
	Well, can we document troop activity?
	Yeah, you can to a certain extent, but the trick was, with General McMullen pulling all of the strings out of Washington, He was bypassing all kinds of things.
	A very curious thing happened.
	The photographic unit at Roswell, where it all had top secret clearances, everybody in the whole photographic unit had top secret clearances.
	They were not employed in this job and they were stunned.
	We found a photographic unit member and he had just come back from leave from over the weekend.
	And there was all this buzz going on.
	In fact, it was so raucous in the photographic unit because, you know, when you belong to an elite unit, you have a top-secret clearance, and everything that goes on, you've got to get the photographic.
	And all of a sudden, they're being excluded.
	And they couldn't deal with it.
	And at one point, the guy said that the commander of his unit called them all together and said, look guys, we have a job to do.
	Settle down.
	Now, Bill Moore also managed to track down another individual who was in his part of that unit and got a very interesting story from him.
	To this day, the man is scared to death.
	What does he say?
	He says that he was in the photo lab on the night shift when the MPs came in and held a gun to his hip and had him develop some films.
	And then they took the film and they left.
	What does he say was on the film?
	He won't say.
	That's how scared he is.
	He says it's about that stuff out in the desert in 47, isn't it?
	When somebody came knocking on his door.
	And they held a gun to his head?
	Held a gun to his head.
	Um, are you still in contact with this man?
	He could probably be found.
	But he was so frightened.
	He was unbelievably frightened.
	But there's some additional details in there which I don't want to give out on the air at this point because they go into part of a manuscript that's going together and I have some things we're working on in that regard.
	But those details that I'm leaving out at this moment track back precisely to the aspect of the error of reconnaissance and everything else.
	And it gets right down to the nitty details that you have to find To validate the process.
	All right.
	Aerial reconnaissance means pilots, crews, airplanes.
	Means at least one airplane.
	At least one airplane.
	And in all probability, this was piloted by Colonel Blanchard.
	Colonel Blanchard?
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	Jamie, hold on.
	We'll be right back.
	We will get to the phone shortly, but we're also trying to get to the truth.
	And this is one of the principal investigators.
	He is Jamie Chanderet.
	If you have questions, you're going to be able to come shortly.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I'm a dancer.
	I'm a leader.
	When you first came my way, I said no one can take your place.
	And if you get hurt, you get hurt by me.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Call Art Bell.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033
	1-800-825-5033 This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is. Jamie Chandure, an investigative journalist, who's done a very, very careful, exhaustive investigation
	of Roswell, is my guest.
	He'll be back in a moment with your questions.
	Are you home?
	Telemart Bell told you to call.
	That's 1-800-406-0469.
	Alright, back now to my guest, Jamie Chandure.
	0469. All right, back now to my guest, Jamie Chanterelle.
	Jamie, I've got a notice of a press conference I would like to read you here, very short.
	A press conference scheduled for 9 o'clock a.m.
	July 4th, 1997 at the Rearson Auditorium on the New Mexico Military Institute campus in Roswell, New Mexico, is going to present the results of scientific tests performed on crash debris found near Roswell, New Mexico 50 years ago that once and for all will prove the downed vehicle was not of Earth origin.
	A research scientist from a major university involved in testing is going to be on hand to discuss the methodology and the results of the isotopic radio ratio test rather, I'll get that right one day, of the Roswell debris Supporting conclusions and a battery of tests conducted by universities, big ones, and national labs will be provided that conclude the Roswell debris is, this is important, manufactured material of extraterrestrial origin.
	Jamie, if in fact they have this, they have the scientific reports, and you've got actual manufactured material, in other words, something functional, That is made of materials not of Earth that they can, with a chain of evidence, link to Roswell.
	That sounds like the smoking gun, doesn't it?
	Well, yeah, it sounds like at least the first step to the smoking gun.
	I can see Colonel Haynes saying, well, we don't know where they got it.
	You know, every time you get your hopes up that something is a major breakthrough, I hope it all Well, tomorrow night I will have a guest on this subject, so we will see.
	And then, of course, on the fourth Friday, we are going to know for sure, I guess, aren't we?
	I hope so.
	The next step, of course, is the laying of that foundation.
	My approach is you have to look at an investigation like it's a crime scene.
	You've got to be able to find out We've got into this area, we've got out of this area, and where did everything go?
	If you can't build a solid base for making that determination, you're never going to find the perpetrator or what went on.
	All right.
	Let's go to a few calls.
	And first time caller line, you're on the air with Jamie Chendurey.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Roberta from Media, Pennsylvania.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I was out in Roswell last December.
	My uncle lives in Rio Doce, which is not far from Roswell.
	And living out there, he said he always heard the crash site was really somewhere in the Capitan Mountains.
	Have you ever heard of anything about that?
	Well, there have been a whole series of stories about different crash site areas.
	There seems to be clear evidence that there was more than one crash site.
	However, there's still a considerable amount of consternation as to where all of these different crash sites were.
	It seems clear because I know that That C.I.C.
	officer Rickett, who went out there with Sheridan Cabot the next day on July 8th, he was subsequently assigned to get Dr. LaPaz from the University of New Mexico to go out there.
	And Dr. LaPaz determined a trajectory to where this craft had come down.
	So what they did is they followed that trajectory into the back country and found Indians, found people in line shacks and everything else.
	All right.
	It's a good question.
	What is your best guess right now?
	We've got a debris field.
	they did see apparently were three lights in the sky.
	And they saw one go down, then they saw another one go down,
	and then they don't know what happened to the other one, whether it went off into the horizon or it also went down.
	Which is very interesting.
	So, I mean, it does lend credence to more than one crash site.
	All right, it's a good question.
	What is your best guess right now?
	We've got a debris field, we've got an actual crash site,
	and how many more?
	Um...
	I think there was at least one.
	I don't think it's where Stanton Freedman thinks it was.
	I think it was close to the plains of San Agustin.
	I think it was in the mountains, in the rocks, in an absolutely inaccessible area.
	And this is purely, of course, off into the area of speculation.
	But if it was an alien craft, is it reasonable to conclude, since the atomic bomb was at Roswell, That an alien craft would certainly be interested in our first developmental area where the atomic materials were being kept.
	Sure.
	You know, it was at the point where, you know, there's nuclear waste outside our atmosphere.
	We're dangerous.
	You know, we've got to be watched now.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Jamie Chanderais.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Hi there.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Where are you?
	I am in Tucson.
	This is Katya in Tucson, Arizona.
	Okay.
	And first of all, I'd like to tell you, Mr. Bell, you're beginning to grow on me.
	I'm listening to you for about three weeks now, and I'm really enjoying what I'm hearing.
	Thank you.
	And good morning to you, Mr. Chandra.
	Good morning.
	My comment pertains to something I heard earlier this evening on another station on another talk show.
	And the guest on that show was James McGehee, who's an astronomer.
	I believe he's in Arizona.
	May I mention the name of the host of that show?
	Sure.
	It was Jim Bohannon.
	Jim Bohannon.
	All right.
	Now, first, if you don't mind, I'll tell you the conclusion that Mr. McGehee came to at the end of their discussion.
	His conclusion was that the entire issue of the UFOs is A phenomenon based on ignorance and superstition.
	And there was a caller who was trying very earnestly to describe something that he had seen that was out of the ordinary.
	And Mr. Bohannon just tended to dismiss him.
	I found listening to him because I can't listen to you.
	You don't come on here until one o'clock.
	And he tends to patronize anyone with whom he doesn't agree.
	And rather than engage in an intelligent conversation, he just signs off.
	And he has some things to say about you and your guests and to dismiss the whole thing as ludicrous.
	Well, I'm used to that.
	I know you are.
	But my one question now is that Mr. McGahey said that the debris that was found in Roswell, he said, first of all, there were only six or seven witnesses to What was there after the crash and that everyone else heard about it secondhand.
	And he said that whatever it was was supposed to have been 24 feet across.
	However, there was only five pounds of debris that was recovered.
	And that debris consisted of rubber, balsa wood, tinfoil, and scotch tape with flowers on it.
	First of all, it's patently untrue.
	Virtually all of the statements that he's made are untrue.
	And what happens here is that he's done the same thing that unfortunately too many people do.
	They've mixed and matched.
	They've taken testimony from someone prior to the cover-up and they've taken testimony from the cover-up and mixed and matched it.
	Yeah, I think somebody would be well served to call Mr. Bohannon and suggest that, as I just did, he have somebody on who was really there and really handled the material and took photographs of the material.
	I would have loved to.
	I can't call him because, you know, we get him after he's taking calls, but I was just incensed and I just couldn't wait to get on the phone and tell you.
	Well, I appreciate that, ma'am, deeply.
	Thank you.
	I'm used to it.
	Jim Bohannon and others that I will not mention seem to have an agenda and an anger with me that is based in more than just a disagreement with regard to the issues that we are discussing this night.
	So I'll just drop it right there.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Shandoray.
	Hi.
	Yes, this is Ron from the Buffalo, New York area.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I want to state first that I've always been kind of skeptical about these UFO reports, and there's a lot of things going on now that people are saying they're being abducted, and we've got alien abduction support groups and all that type of thing, so... I know, I'm skeptical of a lot of that too, by the way.
	Yeah, it was rather interesting when I heard first, and as long as you're allowing people to mention other programs, there was a, I believe it was a TNT special, October 1st, 1994, which was hosted by Larry King, called I believe it was called Live from Roswell.
	No, it was Area 51 I think is where they were.
	What?
	Area?
	Area 51, right.
	Okay, right.
	Okay.
	And he had on there, amongst other people, he had Barry Goldwater on there.
	And Barry Goldwater apparently, and you know, he's not exactly your claiming, you know, new age or mystic esoteric type of person.
	No.
	He said that he had talked during, apparently I think it was the 1964 campaign, he had talked to Curtis LeMay because even as far back as 64 there were Uh, rumblings about things that went on in Roswell and that type of thing.
	And he supposedly asked Curtis LeMay and Curtis LeMay, who normally he claimed was not very excitable, was very business-like and professional, got very upset and said something to the effect... Actually cussed him out and told him, don't you ever... Exactly, don't you ever blankety-blank mention that and I don't even want to know what goes on there or something like that, to that effect.
	That's correct.
	That's correct.
	I have that on audio tape from Barry Goldwater.
	As well as, I was wondering if your guest could maybe elaborate more on that, as well as in the other incident, which is more recent, Strom Thurmond was supposed, and I did not read the book or anything, but supposedly wrote the foreword to a book, and I got this from the internet.
	It is Lieutenant Colonel Corso's book, The Day After Roswell.
	I will be interviewing Colonel Corso Sunday on Dreamland, so you don't want to miss that.
	And he's backed away from it, and they apparently have pulled the foreword.
	Okay, let's do it one at a time.
	Jamie, the LeMay business, what can you tell me?
	Does he talk to anybody associated with anybody?
	Of course...
	Alright, alright, alright.
	Let's do it one at a time.
	Jamie, the LeMay business.
	What can you tell me?
	Well, the...
	There's something very interesting that happens with Wright-Patterson.
	It turns out that Wright-Patterson had a major storage facility underground.
	Refrigerated storage facility underground.
	And its purpose was for nitrate film.
	Because all of the Signal Corps and others, you know, when they shot their film, it was all nitrate in the early days.
	Nitrate's extremely flammable.
	So even in Hollywood, all the storage facilities for nitrate film were refrigerated.
	Okay.
	Now when the safety film came in, and this is right about turning into the 50s, right into that range, They got rid of all of the nitrate film.
	They converted to safety film and got rid of these areas.
	Well, that opened up an entire underground facility, a refrigerated facility at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	And the story is that was all turned into a SCIF facility, a specially compartmented
	information facility, SCIF, which means that specially compartmented information is high
	security classification and you have to have that special compartment classification to
	have any access.
	And even if you were top secret you still had to have a special compartment to be able
	to access that.
	So that's where the rumors of Hangar 18, the Blue Room and all those things at Wright Field
	apparently have generated from, was this underground facility.
	What they did was they shipped out all of the film people to all the locations, got
	them out of there.
	Most other people there, as things changed over in time, had no awareness whatsoever
	that there was such a facility underground there.
	So that tends to be where the genesis of all those things are and it was highly classified.
	General Exxon made references to bodies being stored at Wright-Patterson.
	He was there in 1947, I think he was a major at that time, during the 60s and roughly about
	the time that we're talking about here in 64, General Exxon was the commander of Wright-Patterson
	Air Force Base.
	But he, even as commander, he did not have access to the information.
	And he had the stories and he had to assign retrieval groups and other things to go out there.
	Okay, well if we are to judge though, General LeMay's reaction to Goldwater's question, General LeMay obviously had knowledge.
	He had at least, yeah, he had some knowledge.
	It doesn't mean that he was read into the specific program, but he had knowledge, so he would have been in a periphery position that would have had to rebuff anybody that tried to get close.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandray.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you?
	This is Mike from Maui.
	Maui, Hawaii.
	All right.
	Yes.
	And how are you again?
	Fine.
	Great.
	Thank you for your wonderful guest, Mr. Chandra.
	Chandra Ray.
	I want to just respect him.
	Is that correct?
	Chandra Ray.
	Chandra Ray.
	Thank you.
	You know, I am very excited to hear someone of your nature come on and recite a lot of documents.
	I drop a lot of names.
	The thing that upsets me and it isn't what you're doing is the fact that the people that you're referring to aren't as brave as you.
	I know Art works as hard as anybody is including a coach of a winning NFL team just to get to playoffs and that's not an easy feat.
	Art probably times 10 steps and what I appreciate is the fact that we can get it this far.
	What I question though is With all the accuracy, or should I say alleged accuracy, of a lot of people that have worked in the NASA and the research of aerospace, why is it that the documents are always available whether they're accurate or not?
	It seems so difficult to get them to just come on the air, whether it be your show, Art, or anybody else's show, or just plain old network television.
	And I think that that draws a lot of funds, including advertising, which makes it lucrative for these people, which that is why they're in the business, television networks and radio networks.
	And I just think it's a shame that people like Mr. Shondure and others, including Richard Hoagland and other folks of that nature, even through such a fantastic show and a venue that you've used, we just Somehow, and I think it sheds a lot of curiosity on the validity of what they're trying to say.
	I believe in what I have learned in your show.
	Give or take a few oddities, but I think the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is not being shown.
	We're just getting word.
	Well, the answer to your question is that a lot of people of the caliber that you're talking about are scared to come forward, and they have good reason To be scared to come forward.
	Jamie gave us a very good example of that a few moments ago.
	A man who developed film, wouldn't even talk about what was on it, said it related to that thing in Roswell, and had a gun put to his head, and to this day will not talk.
	Are there a lot of people, do you think, Jamie, in that category?
	Well, let me give you a different example.
	The way things are specially compartmented, that whole phrase has a very strong bearing on this whole issue.
	The aspect of compartmentalization is the brainchild of Dr. Vannevar Bush, in particular, who was also named as one of the MJ-12 members.
	The idea of compartmentalization is that if you have a specialty that they need, you're brought into a compartment.
	Now, you're given a certain amount of information because they want you, if you're a physicist, let's say, to work on this.
	You don't know where it comes from.
	You don't know where it goes to.
	You don't know how any of it connects.
	But let's say for a moment that this individual decides that, holy cow, what I'm dealing with is extraterrestrially derived information.
	Right.
	I think the public has a right to know this.
	Right.
	And even though, you know, I've signed a security oath to get where I'm at, I've got to give this to a journalist.
	I've got to give this to somebody.
	This story's got to get out.
	So let's say he gives me, or anybody, this piece of paper, this document that he's got.
	Now, if you're legitimate as a journalist, then you have to go back through the government somehow to validate the information.
	You can't simply take somebody's document and say, whoa, look, this is real.
	So the process of going back through, the document has dye tracers in it because of the compartmentalization and the security nature of the information.
	The dye tracers will first trigger security people.
	They don't have to know the content.
	All they know is there's a marker that just saw the light of day of a document that is not supposed to see the light of day.
	So the first questions are, who had it?
	Why does he have it?
	If proper division is notified, they will, within a matter of hours, identify what compartment it came out of.
	Because even if there were five different compartments that had to coordinate, They would know, because of the die tracer, the marker of some kind.
	It would come all the way down to a misspelled word.
	In other words, because of the way everything is compartmentalized, they could know exactly... Precisely.
	Exactly where it came from.
	If there were five physicists that had to work on the same project, each one would have the same security die tracer on it, and they would have a different marker that would identify which compartment it came from.
	So they would be able to identify the specific individual within a matter of hours.
	If I was the one who received it, they would never talk to me.
	They would come around, they would knock on that individual's door, and at that point, that man is in deep doo-doo.
	In other words, no matter how you protect your source, the mere imparting of the information is going to tell those who are watching over all this exactly where it came from.
	So here's what would happen.
	What would happen next is, they would then say, We can destroy your future.
	We can jail you.
	We can blackball you.
	We can do anything you want.
	But before we make our good mind up, here, give this to your journalist.
	All right.
	Hold tight.
	Hold tight, Jamie.
	We'll be right back to you.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is CBC.
	Wanna know about the road of life?
	You can find out more about the road of life at www.artbell.com.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	I am Art Bell, and my guest is Jamie Chandure.
	We're discussing what really happened at Roswell.
	If you are interested in the truth, keep listening.
	Otherwise, good night.
	It's 9.
	Alright, back now to Jamie Chandrai.
	Let's see, I'm getting it wrong.
	Chandrai.
	Right, Jamie?
	Yes, wrong name.
	Right.
	Have you struggled with that all your life?
	I'm sure you have.
	Well, what's the derivation of your name?
	It's a French-Canadian pronunciation of a bohemian name.
	All right.
	Back to the lines we go.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Jamie.
	Yes, Art.
	This is Dick in Seattle, Washington.
	I stumbled over something the other day that I thought I might want to share with Jamie.
	It seems like all the government official efforts in covering up information about UFOs, important cases in the early years, seem to go back to General Hoyt S. Vandenberg.
	And I remember he kicked back the 1948 top secret estimate of the situation report that concluded they were extraterrestrial.
	I just discovered this guy was the director of the Central Intelligence Agency group in 1946 to 1947.
	So I'm thinking that maybe that accounts for much of the reason that the UFO subject back then was covered up.
	I thought I'd offer that for you.
	Yeah, that's quite true.
	See, he's also named as one of the original members of the Majestic 12 group that Truman set up to investigate all this.
	In fact, there were four former directors of Central Intelligence on that group.
	And definitely General Vandenberg was one of them.
	Well, you know, that may lead us back to that wonderful organization, the CIA, and all the horrors they've vested upon us, and visited upon us, I mean.
	And I hope Bart gets the chance to have Craig Roberts on again, where he can talk about more of their handiwork.
	I will do that.
	All right, thank you very much.
	Craig Roberts, of course, was on some time ago, and we will get him on again.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Jamie Shendure.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is EK in San Diego, and I'm also on your website right now, and they're all discussing it, but something I've been dying to ask is, why has none of the major media asked Gordon Cooper about his open statements about ET crashes and landings that he's witnessed?
	Do they think he's crazy?
	Do they just dismiss it?
	They don't say anything.
	The biggest problem the media has is they're uneducated.
	That seems like a cheap shot in one sense, but it isn't.
	The problem the media has is that they operate under what I refer to as a broadcast mentality.
	Art knows exactly what I'm talking about.
	They work on immediate deadline and if you're talking about something that needs to develop over a few months, let alone years, forget it.
	Do you think he's credible?
	Well, you know, I don't know him.
	But yeah, I think that many of his statements are indeed credible.
	The problem is that too many people allow their education to limit their thinking.
	And that's a shame.
	You know, somebody thinks, well, I was taught this.
	Therefore, anything else couldn't be.
	I have a degree that says I know this.
	Therefore, anything outside of that realm Couldn't be.
	And if there is something outside that realm, then that does harm to or invalidates my degree and I can't let that happen.
	That's right.
	So they are in denial.
	And elitist, I'll get it out I'm sure, elitist format in their thinking.
	That's what I was thinking.
	Colonel Haynes, they'll put him on, let him say what he says, but someone like Cooper, who's a hero, they won't even touch?
	Because it's into that kook fringe and nobody wants to be categorized in that kook fringe.
	But remember the story I was telling in the last hour.
	So this journalist gets this document from this individual and then he's given the second one because the powers that be on the inside have determined who leaked the document.
	So he is given, he hands some bogus information now.
	Then what they do is an end run around the journalist and force his hand by tipping off that somebody else has the same information.
	He better go public quickly with it.
	Or he's going to lose his edge.
	He does it, and boom, they discredit him on the basis that the bogus material discredits everything.
	It doesn't make any difference.
	He had good material in there.
	The bogus material is the rotten apple that spoils the barrel.
	Now once a few broadcasters, a few magazine journalists, a few print reporters see this happening to 25-year career people, they say, I'm not messing with that stuff.
	There's no future in it.
	Okay, that answers it.
	Alright, it certainly does, and it's absolutely true.
	And it partially accounts for a lot of the attacks on me, but I've learned to have a thick skin dealing with this kind of material a long time ago, and so I just sort of let it roll off.
	It comes all the time, and the more listeners I get, the more people that are interested, the larger the network grows, the stronger the attacks become.
	And I expect that, and I just sort of deal with it.
	But somewhere there, there is a truth, and I am determined to get to it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandure.
	Hi.
	This is Nick in Sarasota, Florida.
	Hi.
	Actually, Art, I'm a degreed engineer myself, and also a ham radio operator, but I find this conversation most interesting.
	I am most impressed with how thoroughly your guest has investigated this situation.
	This is the kind of investigative reporting I like to hear.
	Thank you.
	My question is, you stated that the bodies that were found were found a week later and they were somewhat decayed.
	Are you saying that the people who are reporting they saw live aliens there are wrong?
	Okay, that's a good question.
	Six days later, to be specific, memory serves, the bodies and the craft were located.
	Was there, to the best of your knowledge, Jamie, anything alive?
	Yes.
	Yes, there was.
	There was, according to very clear testimony, one living alien.
	And there was indeed an Air Force Major ultimately assigned to live with this alien.
	And through pictographs and other methods, they developed a form of communication that the alien lived for approximately three years and died of an unknown ailment.
	Three years?
	Right.
	They weren't able to save him because they didn't You know how to say them.
	All right, there have been representations of the alien autopsy.
	More recently, and soon to be released, yet another video that seems or purports to show an alien interrogation at Area 51.
	It is a very big, glaring problem with that one out of Area 51.
	Yes.
	And that has to do with this DNI notification across the bottom, which Victor claims is the Department of Naval Intelligence.
	Correct.
	And others say that too.
	Well, there's no such thing.
	There is the Office of Naval Intelligence under the Department of the Navy.
	There is no such thing as the Department of Naval Intelligence.
	So you wouldn't know what DNI would be?
	No, but it's clearly not what they're claiming it to be.
	All right.
	Uh, problems beyond that?
	Um... Yeah.
	Sure.
	First of all, if you accept the premise for a moment that a control group, a very high-level control group, controls information within the subject area, That control group would have to have one very clear thing going for them.
	The ability to clearly categorize and hide that information.
	I've heard stories where these S.C.I.F.
	rooms, these Specially Compartmented Information Facilities, to go into one, there would be a guard booth inside the room.
	If you had to look at pictures, you would have to look through a funnel type device, which you could not even photograph through, to see one picture at a time.
	So you don't even get to handle the picture.
	So for somebody, anybody, to say that in any kind of process of cataloging tapes or in any fashion would have access to information regarding this kind of thing doesn't... I can't buy it.
	You can't buy it, alright.
	What about the all-famous or infamous alien autopsy?
	What do you make of that?
	Well, first of all, I started in the business back in around 1964 and I was shooting film on cameras That were those three minutes, the hundred foot rolls and so forth.
	Yes.
	And the first thing I would say is this about the thing.
	If you just take it from a production standpoint, from a photographer standpoint, it would never have been handled that way.
	First thing would happen, you would have set up two tripods at different angles on either side of the body.
	You would have put on very long magazines and you would stagger the run.
	So you would have a continuous record all the way through.
	You'd also have a still photographer shooting at all times.
	The other problem, of course, is the fact that the autopsy lasts too short of an amount of time.
	If something as monumental as a brand new body that we've never seen on this planet before is going to have such a team doing this thing and cataloging every minuscule thing all the way through.
	In fact, there seems to be some testimony that that very film surfaced in 1973 and that Andrej Pajaric, in fact, was given access to that material.
	In fact, other people that had known Pajaric had reported to me things that Pajaric had seen and Phil Mantle had sent me some stills.
	This is all before the film was being shown around and everything else.
	And some of the things that the people who had been close to Pajaric were saying showed up in those still photographs, such as the wrist being sliced off.
	That's not something you do in an autopsy.
	You don't slice a wrist off.
	The hand is detached from the arm and stuck back in place.
	So there's a whole series of things that are very problematical there.
	The film seems to have derived actually from Brazil, as some of the rumors you might have heard of the different stories.
	Pajaric had been going down with NASA scientists to see that Arrigo, the surgeon with the rusty knife, and the miraculous thing that he was doing.
	In fact, he performed an operation on Pajaric.
	Now, Pajaric was sort of the godfather of parapsychology in this country.
	He was a physician and a And a scientist, and he was into a whole series of things.
	And if memory serves me right, he was Mamie Eisenhower's doctor also.
	So, it was somebody that was associated with Arago in Brazil that brought the film to his attention.
	And they thought that if they could get Pajaric behind this film, they're saying that the Brazilian military had shot this autopsy.
	But ultimately, and Pajaric was interested in the beginning, but the more he saw of it, there's no way that even the Brazilian military of that vintage wouldn't be that sloppy.
	So you have doubts about those.
	Let me bring you up to date and ask you about something more recent.
	There were some absolutely incredible lights, or a craft, depending on the witness you talk to or the film you see, that appeared over the city of Phoenix.
	I'm sure you're well aware.
	I'm well aware of it.
	The initial explanation was they were flares.
	Which is patently absurd.
	Yes.
	This incident went on for 106 minutes, actually.
	It's documented very well on videotape.
	What do you make of this most recent incident?
	I know well that people who have asked questions about it, like Frances Barwood, councilwoman, have had her on the air.
	Have been, are the victims now, of smear campaigns, frankly.
	Look what the governor did.
	I mean, that was the most bizarre activity I've ever seen.
	It really was.
	The announcement of the investigation.
	All seriousness, they're going to investigate this?
	He's having a state agency to investigate this?
	And then by five o'clock, he's parading his chief of staff out with an alien head and a shiny suit.
	Well, actually, to be specific, after a court appearance, he came out and called what he said was an emergency press conference.
	And then we had aliens, dressed up aliens, bouncing around and that sort of thing, and it all got silly.
	I'm told this governor is not given to flights of comedy relief.
	Uh, or is humorous, uh, in that way.
	And the whole incident is very, very strange.
	Well, it seems like he was serious to begin with, but somebody pressured him along the way saying that, you know, the very thing that's happening to the councilwoman's going to happen to you if you don't turn this into a major joke.
	And that's what it, that's what it appears on the surface.
	Uh, I, I think there is something to the lights in the sky over Phoenix.
	I think there's, and when I say something to it, um, what do I mean?
	It's difficult to make an intelligent comment.
	Well, how about something that would certainly suggest an investigation would be in order?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	So what Ms.
	Barwood has done in simply asking for an investigation is not outrageous.
	It is reasonable.
	It's more than reasonable.
	It's really demanded by the nature of the witness' testimony and what's been observed on film and tape.
	All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chendurey.
	Hi.
	Yeah, Jim in North Hollywood, enjoying your program.
	Thank you.
	I was just curious, why is there such a gap until the 8th that they sent out a reconnaissance plane?
	Good question.
	Six day gap.
	See, here's the problem.
	Remember, during an electrical storm, this explosion happened.
	And so the rancher didn't report this.
	Didn't take anything into the Sheriff's Office until the 6th.
	When the team started out to the ranch on the 6th, it was so late when they got there, they stayed over until the 7th.
	It was late on the 7th when all this material got back to the base, and the base commander and others were absolutely committed to the concept that they didn't know what this stuff was.
	So the air reconnaissance occurred virtually immediately?
	Immediately.
	It was right behind it, because this stuff got in late on the 7th, in the evening of the 7th, because you remember Jesse Marcel Jr.' 's testimony, he got
	They got him out of bed to look at this stuff.
	So it was late the night of the 7th.
	That stuff gets in there to the base.
	10 o'clock that morning, it's on its way to Fort Worth and prior to it even leaving, another whole team is being sent with aerial reconnaissance out to the location.
	Okay, well that's a good question and that's a good answer, caller.
	Okay, thank you very much.
	I sure appreciate it.
	Right, take care.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Jamie Chandra.
	Hi, Chandra.
	How you doing, Art?
	I'm all right.
	This is Paul in Cameron Park, California.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I've been listening to the show for quite some time, and what especially interests me is the extraterrestrials and the aliens and everything else.
	My wife has given up on me.
	She's thrown my pillow out in the garage still.
	You know, I think that the United States government has known about this for many, many years.
	If you look at the technology, From the 1900s to the 1950s and then from the 50s to now, to present.
	We've come a long ways, but I think we've had some help.
	Well, there's no question there's been a reverse engineering project going on all along the way.
	Is there, in the spirit of this question, any point where you look at our technological advancement where there has been a leap that otherwise cannot be justified?
	Not being a scientist that would be a difficult question for me to answer straight out.
	I mean certainly if you look at a simple situation of where we've come just since the personal computers come under the sun.
	I mean our technology is growing so fast so swiftly that you know it's We can't even get a production line element out anymore before it's completely obsolete.
	So there is no suggestion, for example, that in the immediate years following 1947 there is any obvious leap in technology?
	No, I don't think anything happened immediately in those immediate years.
	I think it took a considerable period of time.
	We were given a craft apparently sometime in the 50s or in the 58s.
	Well, we'll get back to that one in a moment.
	Jamie, hold on, we'll be right back.
	In fact, this is CBC.
	I'm going to be singing a song called, I'm going to be singing a song called,
	That's who we are.
	Call Art Bell toll free. West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033. This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's who we are and you know I would think you would want to archive this program this morning.
	If you do, it's a full five hour program.
	And you can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	800-917-4278. That's 1-800-917-4278.
	In addition, I have a series of interviews coming up later this morning,
	including one on KHOW with Peter Boyle, and that'll be about an hour after broadcast,
	followed then by another interview at WIZM in La Crosse, Wisconsin,
	and yet a third with KKOB and Albuquerque, all of course my affiliates.
	But Tim Cannon, who runs the RPL Chat Clubs, wanted me to specifically mention the Peter Boyle interview coming up on KHOW in Denver.
	So obviously, warming up toward what's coming This weekend.
	My guests, Jamie Chandrai, will be back in a moment.
	One other item.
	Actually, a couple.
	My book, The Quickening, is only got a few more days.
	As a matter of fact, Sunday after Dreamland, and I guess I should tell you, Sunday, Lieutenant Colonel Corso is going to be my guest, who wrote the day after Roswell.
	This coming Friday night, Saturday morning, Beyond Roswell by Michael Hesman and Philip Mantle.
	And Michael Hesman is going to be my guest Friday night, Saturday.
	Tomorrow night, we are going to have a guest who is going to tell us at least a little bit about this incredible coming press release on the 4th with regard to materials that they claim to have An iron clad case about as being extraterrestrial.
	So that's kind of the balance of what's going on.
	And it's going to be a very busy week and I really haven't had much of a chance to say it, which is too bad because a lot of people are going to get angry at me.
	My book, The Quickening, is going into general release in August or early September.
	This Sunday will be your last opportunity to get a signed first edition copy of it.
	However, if that is not material to you or important, and I can understand it well may not be, then you'll be able to get it in the bookstores in August or September.
	Any bookstore, literally across America.
	From now through Sunday, I will sign a copy of my book for you, and then that's it.
	Finish.
	Benny Dunn, regarding autographs.
	So, there you are.
	If you want one, call 1-800-864-7991.
	If you want a first edition autographed copy, 1-800-864-7991.
	After Sunday, that offer is withdrawn.
	want a first edition autographed copy 1-800-864-7991.
	After Sunday, that offer is withdrawn.
	Jamie Chandray will be back in a moment.
	All right, back now to Jamie Chandray.
	Jamie, you said we were given a craft in the 50s?
	Yes, and fully intact.
	Just left for us to claim.
	And apparently what our brightest scientist said was that the power supply was an absolute scientific bafflement.
	It was like looking into a box of crystals and what he'd do with it.
	All right, it's a hell of a statement to make, Jamie.
	How do you back that up?
	How do you know?
	Well, we've got testimony from specific individuals, and apparently, if you're familiar with the Cash Landrum case out of Texas, around 1980-81, where the three generations of one family were on their way back from some road outside of Dallas somewhere, when a craft went above them, over the car, and they got out, and they developed cancer and various other things from that.
	Um, they had a very tough time, uh, with that whole thing.
	Well, we've got testimony, very clear testimony that that was the craft that had been modified with a modified nuclear power plant and that there were, um, the 25 black helicopters around that craft at that time because it was on its way into the Gulf of, uh, over the Gulf of Mexico.
	And that in any situation where a craft like that was being test flown, They only held four aliens originally, but in modification
	they only hold two American pilots.
	And they were having instability problems and the people were radiated.
	But because of the level of secrecy and the classification on it, that's one of those really unfortunate things.
	During the news conference with Colonel Haynes, poor Colonel Haynes I call him, he was asked repeatedly about
	Area 51.
	I live fairly close to Area 51.
	In the movie Independence Day, of course you recall, I'm sure you saw it, they led the President in and he was shown all these incredible things including a craft and beings in these glass containers.
	I have seen things here, Jamie, that are inexplicable in our skies.
	Inexplicable.
	Two clear times I have seen things, and many times I have seen less clear things that I would not talk of.
	Just lights doing things lights ought not be doing.
	I don't talk about that.
	I had two clear, close encounters.
	Do you believe that there are alien craft, or have been alien craft, At Area 51, is that where they are being tested, back-engineered, worked on, or examined?
	Yes and no.
	Yes, it has occurred.
	No, it isn't specific at this point.
	All of the really sensitive things were moved some period back.
	What's actually occurred with Area 51 is a very interesting thing.
	It's a dual project that went on, and it went on in particular in the Cold War.
	And it was a way of drawing in and trying to determine what the Soviets really knew about alien contact.
	And did they have the same level of contact that we had?
	Right.
	And so what they were doing is a counterintelligence ploy at the same time.
	So they would let things out.
	It was an area where they could put, again I'll use the term, dye tracer on people coming into the area.
	And they could bag Soviets and interrogate them.
	And find out, and if not a target, then they could tag them and determine who their handlers were, who their contacts were, and so then who in the Soviet Union was interested in this information and this kind of thing.
	All right.
	The U.S.
	government, which already owns a great deal of the land here in my state of Nevada, has, in effect, annexed additional land around Area 51 to prevent the curious from observing.
	Why do you think they have done that?
	Uh, if they no longer are doing the kind of work there that, uh, they were.
	Well, there's, there are stories and, and again, I'll have to say stories at this point.
	Um, even if they're from very good sources, there's still, we'll have to fall into categories of stories until you can absolutely validate the information.
	Sure.
	That there are areas within the confines of Area 51 that are off limits to everybody.
	S4.
	Those sorts of areas, anyway.
	Yeah, but even more strategic than that.
	In fact, if you look on a Bureau of Lands and Mines map, or Bureau of Land Management map, you'll see an area in there, within the Area 51 confines, that indicates off-limits radioactive.
	And it has nothing to do, apparently, with radioactivity.
	It has to do with other activity.
	Of which even the security and perimeter guards that there are stories floating around that they have found abandoned security guard vehicles at the perimeter of these areas where they've wandered in and they have not returned.
	I see.
	It's generally referred to as the groom-like area.
	They asked the colonel about this during the news conference repeatedly and he repeatedly had no comment.
	Right.
	He did confirm that it exists, but he said it's kind of out of his bailiwick.
	Well, he didn't exactly say Area 51 exists.
	He said, I assume, I seem to recall, he said, I assume you're referring to the Groom Lake area and sort of transferred it to that.
	We all know there is a Groom Lake area.
	So he didn't specifically say Area 51 is Groom Lake.
	He said, I assume you're referring to the Groom Lake area and then referred everybody to the Air Force PR people.
	Uh, and I don't imagine too many of the reporters went rushing to them.
	That's right.
	Well, you know, most of the people, they don't understand any of it.
	They don't know enough of the information.
	The press has another problem in this area, and that is, who do they go to?
	Who are they going to learn from?
	And the problem in the UFO community is that, um...
	Boy, it's such an infighting kind of thing and everybody competes with everybody.
	Yes, I know.
	Everybody throws rocks at everybody.
	I know.
	And so how does, you know... It's really a shame because there is enough rocks being launched from outside the community for the community not to be doing itself in.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Jamie Chandure.
	Hi.
	Hi, this question is for Jamie.
	Yes.
	I was, you have heard of the strange camera?
	Or object that is looking over Groom Lake?
	I don't know what you're referring to.
	I don't know what you're referring to either.
	Apparently, I read on the internet, I pulled up a webpage.
	Be careful of the internet.
	Yes, I know.
	It showed a picture of a strange looking object that was overlooking Groom Lake, Area 51.
	Apparently, they said it was some type of beacon with Infrared Seeking, which can detect trespassers, or something like that?
	Well, they have all sorts of security in place in that area, and believe me, you cannot get close to it without encountering some people you don't really want to meet, and possibly ending up in jail if you go too far.
	Is that your understanding, Jamie?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Jamie Chendurey.
	Hi.
	Yeah, let me turn my radio down.
	Yes.
	Hello, Art.
	How are you doing tonight?
	Fine.
	How are you doing, Jamie?
	It's very interesting what you've been discussing and revealing to the American public.
	I've got four items, very brief.
	I just want to state them and then you can answer them a little off the air.
	Did you look into the credibility of the testimony of Barney Barnett?
	Do you know who any of the University of Pennsylvania students were that were on site before recovery personnel arrived?
	And in regards to the MJ-12 documents, who does MJ-12 report to, or what?
	And what parts of our government does it exclude?
	That's a lot of questions.
	Hold on there, please.
	Jeremy?
	All right.
	Your first question again was...
	Let's take them one at a time.
	Collar, in the proper chronology, what was your first question, please?
	Barney Barnett.
	Did you investigate the credibility?
	I didn't investigate the credibility.
	The problem, of course, with the Barney Barnett story is that it was secondhand to begin with.
	So the problem of narrowing it in.
	Now, Stan Friedman did an awful lot of work on Barney Barnett, and he puts a lot of stock in Barney Barnett's story.
	I don't put stock in the plane to San Augustine location.
	That's problematical for me.
	So I don't know how else to answer that question beyond that aspect.
	Alright, question two.
	The University of Pennsylvania students that were alleged to have been on the site at the same time before recovery personnel arrived, has anyone tracked them or found out who they were and interviewed them?
	No, I've never heard of that.
	Oh yeah, they supposedly were out there.
	I think that there was, I think Randall and Schmidt had And located, or sort of located, somebody along the line, but I don't think anything came to any significant fruition in any of that.
	Alright, and the final question involved Majestic and who they, if anybody, report to.
	Well, what happened with MJ-12 is they were structured, they were set up originally by Truman, and for a very good reason.
	Initially, when they found the bodies, when they found all of this stuff, they didn't know what they were up against.
	So for very legitimate reasons, this thing was covered up.
	And it was covered up in the standpoint that they put a lid on it to investigate it, examine it, and make a determination of what is going on.
	Are we under attack?
	Can we defend ourselves?
	Did the Nazis know this?
	Did the Soviets have this?
	What's going on?
	So, it makes sense in the beginning to put a lid on it.
	But they understood also at the same time they couldn't keep it secret.
	But they knew they could manage it.
	So, it isn't really a secret.
	It's well managed.
	And what they really manage is the evidence.
	Now, back to your question, which is, who do they report to?
	When Eisenhower was elected, Eisenhower gave the group autonomy from the President of the United States.
	So they are autonomous and work outside of the direction of the President of the United States.
	So then, would it be true or not true, in your opinion, that each president following Eisenhower was not aware of their existence or function?
	What they did was they briefed presidents on presidents' need to know.
	In other words, Let's take a Jimmy Carter.
	When Jimmy Carter comes into office, Jimmy Carter had made statements while he was running for president.
	Promises, actually.
	He had seen a... He had a sighting, let's say, at a Kiwanis Club parking lot.
	He's not just a casual observer.
	He was an astrophysicist at Annapolis for his major.
	So, he made promises that he was going to get to the bottom of this UFO-ish issue.
	That's right.
	If the government had information, he wanted to see if the public got that information.
	If they didn't, he wanted to know why they didn't.
	The last line is always left off, and that is, as long as it isn't against national security.
	Now, when he became president, at the point where he began to really rumble about this subject area, it was determined that he was now in a need-to-know position.
	And so they briefed him.
	And what each president would subsequently find out is, there is a long-term plan underway for the eventual complete release of this information, but gradually.
	Let me stop you, Jamie, and tell you a little story, and I've told it before.
	A caller, a very credible caller, called when I had another guest on set.
	He went to a Jimmy Carter book signing.
	Jimmy Carter was doing as a lot of people do in book signings and hardly looking up signing books like crazy, one after the other.
	This caller took the time and trouble to capture ex-President Carter's attention eye-to-eye and asked him specifically and directly about his promise to reveal everything.
	According to the caller, Jimmy Carter stopped cold and actually had tears form in his eye.
	Now, Jimmy Carter was In my opinion, not particularly an effective president because he micromanaged.
	And I have a lot of arguments with some of his policies and things he did.
	But one thing Jimmy Carter was, was an honest man.
	And so the question becomes, what could they have told Jimmy Carter that would have made him decide to cast away all of his promises made during the campaign and shut his mouth?
	What could they have told him that would be so profound That he would shut up?
	Well, we got a draft at one point of the briefing that he was given.
	And he was shown the fact that there was an alien had been in our possession, so to speak, but really was in our possession, you know, almost as a liaison.
	And that the technology level was advancing, that there were projects underway to determine all of those things.
	That there was an emergency release program and that there was a gradual release, which was the best possible way to not damage institutions, not frighten people, and let this thing begin to assimilate into the general public.
	The main thing being to get people to exercise the thinking that it could indeed be real.
	So the genesis of that Brookings report, or of that slow release idea.
	In other words, Brookings suggested were we to find out all at once disruption of institutions and scientists and blah blah blah all the rest would be tremendous.
	So instead we get a slow capsule release form of information.
	Right.
	So they told Jimmy Carter that He simply couldn't release it all at once.
	Simply can't do it.
	Right.
	And what the President also finds out at that point is the President doesn't have the ability to do anything about it.
	As long as they're controlling that information and it's that subject area, the President does not even have direct access to the information.
	But if he knows that much, Jamie, he can say, I'm holding a news conference tonight and I'm going to tell the nation what I know.
	But what he's shown is that he's in the best interest of the nation.
	To not do that.
	To not do that.
	And he is left in the same position at that point that anybody else with it would go to the media.
	He has nothing to back up his statement.
	And so it would be, in essence, political suicide for him to do that.
	All right.
	First time color line, you're on the air with Jamie Chenere.
	Hi there, Art.
	This is Cheyenne in the City of the Fallen Angels.
	Yes.
	My family moved to Roswell in the 70s, and I lived there in the 80s.
	I walked the medicine path and apprenticed as a healer with the Native Americans.
	As such, I was adopted by the Chicano and the Native American.
	I was shown a side of Roswell that a lot of whites aren't privileged to see.
	I think it's information that's necessary to anyone who's doing any kind of research with Roswell, and it's as difficult to accept as the Tuskegee experiment.
	I know I'm going to sound like a looney tune, but That's what your show is about, right?
	The power there in Roswell is controlled by a very few families.
	That power lead includes the Roswell record.
	I was very concerned when you started your research with Arts Parts.
	I was afraid that you'd stray into the wrong spot and you'd lose Arts Parts.
	No.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, I handled, I knew what I was up against.
	Ma'am, I'm sorry, we're going to have to break it off from that point.
	Is there anything to that, Jamie, very quickly, a sort of a controlling small group in Roswell?
	I don't have any information on that.
	I have no way of knowing.
	I mean, today, of course, it's a whole different story than it has been at various other times in the past.
	Jamie, it has been an honor to have you on the program.
	It's been my pleasure.
	And I think we've moved things ahead a notch or two, and we will continue to do that this week.
	And Jamie, when events dictate, please feel free to call me and we'll have you back.
	Alright, thank you so much.
	Good night.
	I'm Art Bell from the high desert.
	This is CBC.
	Good night.

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