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June 26, 1997 - Art Bell
03:20:16
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Teresa Martino - Wolves. RC Hoagland & Larry Hunter - Egyptian Pyramid
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The Rockies and you're listening to AM 1500 KSTV.
♪♪ From the high deserts and the great American Southwest, I
bid you all good evening, or good morning, as the case may be across all these many prolific time zones.
From the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains in the west, eastward, to the Caribbean and the U.S.
Virgin Islands, south all the way into South America, north to the pole.
And worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning, I'm R. Del.
We are going to do two things this night.
One is, we are going to talk to a woman named Teresa Martino.
Or T. Martino.
She wrote a book called, The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness.
A true story of returning home.
It's a born free kind of thing.
I don't know if you've ever Been around a wild animal, or not.
I have.
As you know, I have my little wild animal, Comet.
But absolutely wild he was, and now a year later, and it's been about a year.
He's about three quarters domesticated.
And I'm not sure that last quarter will ever change.
It may.
I don't know.
I watch him by the day and I see little niches of change in my comment.
And he gets just a little closer to human beings, but we are still not his favorite things in all the world.
But he's getting better.
A wild animal is an incredible thing to behold.
Absolutely incredible.
In the case of Tim Martino, She lives, I believe, on an island off the state of Washington.
And she has wolves.
Lots of wolves.
And I guess she decided to take one back into the wilderness and teach it how to be a wolf again.
At least I think that's what we're talking about here.
And it should be quite a story.
And that'll be coming up here in a moment.
And then later this morning, We're going to do what I have been fearing, in a way.
We're going to have Richard C. Hoagland on with others who have just returned from Egypt.
And we're going to absolutely blow the lid off what's going on in Egypt.
Now, as you know, I'm going to Egypt in October.
And there have been some people who have called up the travel service that they're booked with to come with us to Egypt, and they have said, Does this mean we can't go into Egypt?
No, of course not.
Does it mean I may not be able to go into Egypt?
Yes, it may mean that.
I may have to stay on the ship after tonight's show, I don't know.
Um, there are, there are things going on over there that I will not, uh, detail now.
I will let Richard and his agent, and I say agent, uh, somebody who went to Egypt for him and just literally returned today with goods, the evidence.
I will, uh, let them detail it for you.
It's wild.
Really wild.
And there is going to be a bit of an explosion politically in Egypt.
Later today.
So, that's about all I can tell you or will tell you right now.
That'll be coming up at midnight pacific time in about an hour and fifty minutes.
So, we're gonna find out about a woman who actually for months went into the wilderness with a wolf.
In a moment.
See, for Ken Roberts company.
Alright, here we go.
Here is T for Teresa Martino.
Teresa, welcome to the program.
Thanks, Art.
Where are you exactly?
I'm on an island in Puget Sound.
On an island?
Yeah, in Washington State.
Oh, I'll tell you, it is beautiful there.
I flew up one time to my affiliate, KOMO, in Seattle.
And from an airplane, when you look offshore Washington, the islands are just spectacular.
So there are many, many islands.
Yeah, there's a lot of islands.
Up there, and I would imagine many of them not generally even inhabited.
How inhabited is your island?
Oh, it's inhabited.
It's an inhabited island.
It's inhabited by a really great community of people.
And I have to really thank them for a lot of my success and being able to write my books and also being able to keep the wolves because I have... Can you imagine trying to rent a place with wolves?
Rent?
Rent a place?
Well, I mean, if you wanted... It's hard to rent a place.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, sure.
Going in and saying, uh, uh, here I am, uh, and oh, by the way, I have wolves.
Yeah, it's not gonna happen.
Um, how many wolves do you have?
I have three.
You have three wolves?
Yeah, I've been doing rescue work for about 15 years.
Full-blown, full-blooded wolves?
I have two that are pure, and I have one that's a hybrid, that's a part-bred.
Well, let me begin by asking, um, A full-blown wolf, Teresa.
Is that an animal that is ever, in any sense, domestic?
No.
And they're not good pets.
No.
That's the sad part about doing the rescue work, is people get them as pets and think they'll be able to make good pets, and they just don't.
They don't belong in captivity.
They belong wild.
But the animals that are in captivity now, I just, I can't stand to see them put down.
So, uh, that's why I try and, you know, keep them and have a place for them.
Teresa, what happens if you get a wolf, um, from the moment it's born and treat it instead as a dog?
Can it then be domestic or is a wild wolf, a wild wolf from day one, no matter what you do?
It'll still be wild, but it will really bond to you.
It'll bond to the people that it has known as a cub really closely on to them.
And they're so intelligent and loyal.
That's the thing that attracts people to them.
And, um, uh, you know, just that bonding is incredible, but they won't.
In fact, I have one purebred tundra here, but only the people that knew him when he was young, he was actually going to be in the movie as a movie animal.
And the woman who was the trainer for him got into a car accident, and so he came from one place to my rescue place.
Right.
And he will only let the people see him who knew him as a young animal.
Anyone else, he hides.
Okay, I really feel the need to tell you a little story, and you may have already heard it, but I have a cat.
Yeah, I've heard about your cat.
Found him under the house, trapped him with a have-a-heart trap.
Took him to the vet, uh, had the vet do the whole ball of wax, you know, uh, while this cat was knocked out.
And, um, this poor little cat came home, you know, groggy, um, still under the influence, and we put him in a little cat bed, and we watched him.
We just sort of sat there on the rug, uh, and watched him, and he woke up.
And he looked around, he blinked three times, And he jumped vertically five feet or five and a half feet straight up into the air.
Whoa.
Began running into walls until he bloodied himself.
Was as wild as any animal I have ever seen in my whole life.
Either had no contact with humans or bad contact.
But then, Teresa, he was so wild.
I mean, so totally out of control.
That we had to, he lived in our bathroom for about a half a year.
Couldn't come out of the bathroom.
Was capable of jumping about six feet in the air when he finally decided he was going to come out of the bathroom.
He literally leaped six feet over some double doors and came out.
Then for the next three months, He found he could crawl up behind our dresser drawers and get into one of the drawers and make a little nest.
And so for about three months he lived in the drawer.
He felt safe in there.
He felt safe, that's right.
Then slowly he ventured out from there and now his new home is behind, I have a waterbed, and he lives behind the waterbed.
I couldn't have a waterbed.
Now Now, this cat is bonded to me, Teresa.
And when I say bonded to me, I really mean that.
If anybody else comes in this house, anybody, like a shock, he's gone.
Now, I passed by the part where he bloodied my hand and sent me to the hospital.
He doesn't do that anymore, and I can pick him up.
And we have bonded.
I have bonded with this animal.
But anybody else, anybody else, and he will be behind that bed Uh, like an orange flash.
And doesn't want anything to do with him.
This is a wild, feral animal.
But he has bonded with me.
And I guess, you're telling me, that's what can occur with a wolf.
That's what happens with a wolf, yeah.
And I have a wolf den under my house.
I have a... A wolf den?
A 15 foot wolf den.
Yeah, the wolf dug a big, uh, uh, uh, tunnel.
And then a den at the end of it.
And, uh, they go down in there.
And I've crawled down in there too.
It's really, it's really cool.
Except, um, one time it collapsed and I was standing over the top of it during, after a really heavy rain.
And I kind of went through the top of the wolf den into the kind of chamber, wolf, uh, kind of room underneath.
Yes.
And was, ended up standing on one of the poor wolves who ran out of there real fast.
But they have, it's interesting, you know, how they, They'll dig kind of down at an angle and then kind of angle it up and dig a chamber so the water doesn't go up into where they sleep.
Oh, yes.
Yes, yes.
I believe turtles have a similar habitat, don't they?
I think so.
Yeah.
What got you interested in wolves in the first place?
Well, my mom, she says that I always loved wolves as a kid.
And I can remember my dad We were up in, gosh, up north somewhere and he, one time when I was a child, pointed out hearing wolves and saying, that's a wolf.
And I can remember really being affected by that.
And I think it's also kind of an ancestral thing.
Sometimes I think that my doing the rescue work for the wolves is kind of payback because, you know, there's a lot of old legends about the wolves teaching humanity how to hunt.
Yes.
By people, you know, people watching how the And how to take care of their families, because they live in such tight social groups.
They're really good examples that way.
What are their social groups like?
Are wolves, for example, faithful to their mates?
Yeah, they are.
If their mate does die, it's just like individuals.
Some of them will go ahead and take another mate, and some will not.
You know, I think sometimes what happens is people forget that animals are as individual as we are.
Well, I take it that where you live, having wild animals is legal?
have now. They are just totally, they are all totally different. Yes, they are all mine.
I have the one tundra who is very, very shy and I have a timber who is not, who is actually
pretty friendly and when I do the wolf lecture stuff I use him, I use love. Well I take it
that where you live having wild animals is legal. Yeah. Ditto here.
I'm out in the middle of the desert, and you can have lions and tigers.
It's legal.
Yeah.
Not that I would have one, thank you, but you can have them.
There are a few places left like that in the U.S.
This is one of them, and I guess you're in one of them.
Yeah.
Anyway, there is a very specific story about one wolf that apparently you decided to To take back to the wilderness?
Yeah, I did.
About six years ago.
This is an animal that came from a rescue center that was closing down way, way up north.
And there was something about her that was different from the other animals I had.
I have to say that most purebreds could not ever go back.
It was very difficult what she did.
And I would never suggest releasing a hybrid or someone just going out on their own and doing this.
I've worked with animals all my life.
Why not?
Well, because I think that unless you've been out in the wilderness a lot yourself, it would be very difficult for you to teach them.
It isn't that they can just go back and instinctively learn to hunt.
It's not like that.
The set of circumstances behind this particular wolf's release, her name was Mackenzie, or is Mackenzie, was very difficult.
She was second generation removed from the wild.
And so her grandparents on both sides were wild.
And they were very, you know, she was very, very predatory and extremely shy.
And that made a big difference for her going back.
The thing that was interesting about We all know about synchronicity, but my books and Living on the Island and Miss Wolf's Relief, there were a lot of things that happened that were synchronistic that made this come about.
One is, I didn't have to work really during that time.
I didn't have to pay rent.
People on the island let me barter for my rent of the land that I live on with the wolves.
That helps a lot.
So you had free time?
I had free time.
And so I was able to go up into the wilderness with her and hunt.
And the book that, the first book that I wrote was written really inspired by some of the ideas about her.
And about humanity's loss of connection to the wilderness.
And it's common sense.
Because the wilderness, the land has a lot of common sense in it.
And I think we've strayed from that.
I think that's what helps us live.
Seriously straight from it, actually.
Yeah.
And that's something else that I think this particular wolf taught me.
When I was hunting with her, it was hard to say who was teaching who, whether she was teaching me or I was teaching her.
For how long a period of time did it actually go on?
It took one year.
One year.
One year.
How in the world do you teach?
Now I saw Born Free and that was in its own way similar to what you did?
Yeah very much so.
Mackenzie started hunting small rodents around my cabin very very early and she actually followed my old dog Beanie around after small mice and stuff and I fed her roadkill Because I didn't want her to get a taste of domestic food so she ate roadkill deer that we picked up on the island.
And then what I started doing was taking her up with me into the wilderness areas and taking her to places where she would encounter the various game that she would normally encounter in the wild.
One day at a time or were you gone for long periods?
Yeah, it would depend.
Sometimes I was only able to go on weekends and then other times I went for long periods of time.
It was, you know, it was tough.
Not seriously into the wilderness.
It was serious.
I mean, you were actually just out without general cover and you were trekking through the wilderness with this wolf?
And who led who?
I, in the beginning, led her and what I did is followed water.
You know, followed, because most game, that's what they do.
They follow water.
Then after a while, I would follow her because obviously her senses were much more acute than mine were.
One thing that was really interesting about hunting with her is how wild animals pass through the brush without fighting it.
They move very delicately and they can move very slowly.
We have a tendency, if you go to a city, people march.
They march along and they go very quickly.
Well, wouldn't your scent as a human being spoil, if the wind was the wrong way, any opportunity for your wolf?
You watched that.
You watched where the wind was.
You watched where the wind was.
And also, well, if you're in bear country, too, you want to really watch where the wind is.
You want the bears to know you're coming.
I'm sure that's true.
All right, Teresa, stand by.
We'll get back to you in a moment.
Her book is The Wolf.
The woman in the wilderness.
And she actually took a wolf back to the wilderness and taught it how to be a wolf again.
Can you imagine?
I'm Art Bell.
This is CBC.
you see.
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If you want it, you want to reign in it Love is good.
Love's good to go.
We gotta get right back to where we started from.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
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702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am. Good morning everybody, good to be here. At midnight Pacific time, Richard Holtman and Larry
Hunter are going to be my guests, and we're going to blow the top off what's going on in Egypt.
Egypt.
I'm so sorry.
Good luck to us.
This is the program you've been waiting for.
In addition, right now, we've got Teresa Martino.
Teresa took a wolf back to the wild, and only if you have ever worked with a wild animal can you understand what it's like.
It requires more patience, more love, more understanding than I think any chore that I've ever undertaken in my whole life.
And that's from my cat.
I can barely imagine a full-size wolf.
That's what she did.
Back to the wild with it.
We'll get back to her in a moment.
Trading.
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Just smart.
And I presume many of you are that.
Back to Teresa Martino.
Teresa, hi.
Hi.
Alright, so you began this trek of taking this wolf back into the wilderness.
Give us some idea.
Oh, I hear wolves.
Yeah, that's their wolf tape.
I thought I'd try and get a vowel for you.
Anyway, my goodness, they have a different sound.
Than coyotes, yeah.
Than coyotes.
Of course, I'm in the desert.
We have coyotes here.
Can you tell me what the difference is between a coyote and a wolf?
Well, coyotes, number one, are smaller and more solitary, though there has been some animals that have packed up actually in Yellowstone.
Wolves are much more social, much more group-orientated, and much shyer, and that is why I think the coyotes did okay when the wolves really didn't, you know, when the wolves got exterminated.
The coyotes were able to survive.
The coyotes don't seem to want to have anything to do with humans at all.
They take off, you know.
Every now and then I'll see one traipsing across the yard or nearby, but they take off.
Now, it is very bizarre.
At night here, I will hear coyotes outside very close.
They get very close.
Yip, yip, yip, yip kind of sound.
Yeah.
And it's very eerie at times.
When they're making that sound, is that Have something to do with mating?
Mating calls?
Or are they just talking to each other?
Or what are they doing?
They're doing the Coyote version of the Art Bell Show, Art!
I see.
I had to say that.
Well, they're probably talking about a lot of different things.
You know, how the hunting is, what the wife's up to, where the kids are.
Really?
This is my territory, that's yours, you stay put.
Really?
Yeah, wolves do that too.
Wolves, you know, when they howl or sing a variety of things.
Can you actually begin to discern what they are saying?
Yeah, I was really able to do that with Mackenzie.
And with the different tapes, I went down on book tour down in California and I didn't bring my normal wolf tape I use, because I usually play a wolf tape before I speak.
And the tape that I found at a little music shop had some wolves on it that were really sad.
And the tape that I had had two wolves on it that were talking to each other across a valley.
And so that really changed it for me to do the reading, because this one wolf that was howling on this tape that I got down in California was really very, very sad and lonely, wondering where his family was.
And these wolves that are on my tape were quite, kind of conversational almost.
Talking to each other across the valley.
Why are wolves in trouble?
Well, the biggest... We're in trouble too.
Part of it is the fact that the wilderness is being so decimated.
And they require, the top predators require a lot of space in order to survive.
They need a lot of land.
And that land is disappearing.
How much territory Does a wolf in the wild generally claim as its own?
About 70 square miles.
Wow.
That's a lot of land.
One wolf, 70 square miles?
Yeah, small family.
That's a lot of land.
That's a lot of land.
And they're constantly marking that, I presume.
Marking it, and they're great travelers.
They'll travel all around on that particular area.
They're very territorial.
Very territorial.
And so a wolf, would a wolf ever cross intentionally into another's territory?
They really try not to do that.
And that was the thing that was very difficult about putting Mackenzie back, is she had to be in an area where there were a few wolves, so she would be able to finally find a pack.
But she couldn't be in an area where there were a lot of wolves, because they would think she was an interloper.
Sure.
She would have trouble going back with them.
So how did you do that?
Well, what I did is I found a place.
It took a lot of looking.
A lot of thought and research on my part that had three or four wolves that were pretty solitary and probably young animals that had left their own family, young animals that were looking for a territory to establish.
Mm-hmm.
And so what I did is put her on the outskirts of where I thought they were, and she ended up joining one of them.
And that really helped her go back, because this animal knew a lot more about the wilderness than I could ever teach her.
Well, as we destroy the wilderness, which we're doing on a very regular basis, and a wolf cannot find sufficient territory, what happens?
Well, lots of things can happen.
They'll migrate.
For one thing, they can get into trouble.
I mean, when the American West opened up and the game was depleted, you know, the frontier became a rich land for cattle and sheep.
And the game disappeared, the wolf had nothing else to eat except the animals that were out here.
And wolves generally don't want to kill domestic animals.
I have, in my travels, have found that they much prefer game animals.
But they're like you and I. If your family is starving, you're going to eat what you can.
You do what you have to do.
That's right.
And that can be, you know, tough because people are very jealous of what they have.
Well, how did you even keep this wolf close to you or had this wolf at that point bonded to you and wanted to stay close in the beginning to you?
How did that work?
Well, in the beginning, she did stay very, very close to me.
In fact, the one thing that I'll never forget was the look on her face when she saw her first live wild buck.
And she'd been eating deer for, you know, several months.
By the way, folks, we've got a bad phone connection.
You've got to understand, Teresa is out on an island where the phone connections are not that hot, so these pops and crackles are something we're just going to have to put up with.
It's high tide.
The crabs are working on the line.
I see.
Doug told me to say that to you.
Okay.
Anyway, what she did is when we saw that box, she turned and looked up at me and I could just tell in her expression and what she was thinking was, that's what we've been eating?
That big thing over there with corn?
She was very surprised.
In other words, up until this point she had only had Roadkill samples.
Yeah, and I think she thought I must have been a really tremendous hunter, because I would bring back these roadkill, and this deer would be pretty much, you know, flattened, and she'd think, boy, Mom is really good at this!
Isn't that usually what a wolf mother will do for her... Is a cub a right word?
Yeah, they call them that.
Cubs, okay.
Is that what a mother does for a cub, or is it the male that does it?
They both do it.
They both do it?
They both do it.
Okay.
Yeah, they're both very, very family-orientated.
So then this wolf was bonded to you in the sense that you had brought the food, so you were a mom.
Yes, I was.
Oh, boy.
And that was what made it very hard to give her the choice to go back.
But, you know, I had to give her the choice to go back.
I didn't make her go back.
I allowed her to choose it.
Why did you decide to even try it?
There was something about her that just seemed to me that she really needed to try it.
And there was also something, to me, Mackenzie's journey represented something about myself going back too,
about reclaiming, you know, there's something about humanity
that's kind of like we've made ourselves orphans from the land, like we've separated ourselves
from the land, we're all orphans.
Oh, I know.
And that is not right, because we're not.
We're as much a part of the land as the wolves are.
Or we're supposed to be.
We're supposed to be.
Yeah.
And if we continue to move away, it is my heartfelt belief
that we're headed for a disaster.
Well, what we have to do is decide to grow up enough that we look at what's wrong, and we decide to change it, to just fix it, to do the best we can to fix it.
Well, it's going to require sufficient numbers of people to come to this realization for anything real to happen, and I hate to be a pessimist, but I don't see that occurring.
Well, I'm hoping that it will occur.
And I'm hoping that enough people will wake up.
In fact, let me read you the first part of the little preface in the book.
Okay.
This is kind of my thoughts on this.
I know a wolf.
She was born captive in the northern mountains, but her grandparents were free.
I taught the wolf to return to her people.
For a year, we traveled between my cabin and the northern wilderness.
And in that time, I returned to my people.
The circle comes around and the wolf became my guide.
Now my eyes are bright gold like the wolf.
My pupils narrow to a pinprick.
The animals can speak.
The wild has not lost her voice.
She is calling us.
Her voice is in the howling of wolves.
And the wolves say, come home.
So you felt that she had to come home.
Yeah.
That that was the right thing for her.
And I think she also was an analogy about us.
If Mackenzie couldn't return to the wild, I think that somehow in my mind I felt that we couldn't either.
That we couldn't go back either.
That we couldn't fix what was going on in the world.
That it had gone too far.
Yeah.
I think to me that's what that meant.
So there she was staring at a buck.
Uh, looking up at you as though, is this what I'm supposed to do?
Yeah.
What did she do?
Well, what I started doing, the, the buck was totally, um, he didn't, we didn't affect him.
He looked at us and just kept chewing.
Like, huh, big deal.
Really?
Well, he recognized that we were very little threat to him.
You know, she was half grown and I was a human being with nothing, you know, unarmed.
And, um, so I started stalking him.
And that created enough in Mackenzie to get her to chase him, which is what I really wanted her to do, is to chase.
But in the beginning, you know, she didn't take deer.
She took small animals.
You know, she took, you know, little animals.
Rabbits and things.
Yeah.
So, finally Mackenzie took after this buck?
Mm-hmm.
And she chased him.
And that was the beginning of her realizing that the animals that I was bringing back to her were the proper food for her to eat.
These deer.
Did you feel Mackenzie begin to pull away from you as the process continued?
Or did that bond remain as the wildness returned?
Well, even now I feel the bond.
I mean I feel that there's a connection to her and you have to realize that I went back up there several times after the release and she did actually she went back successfully she did mate she did have cubs.
Wow.
And so I went back over a period of two years to check on her and she actually met me there was a certain area in the fall that I would come to and she would be there and I think Pulling away is a good way of putting it.
She pulled away the way a child pulls away when she grows up.
And an adult... My mother has a saying that I think is really good.
A parent's job is to teach the child to live without the parent.
And, you know, to survive.
And that was... Mackenzie knew that, you know, she wasn't a pet.
She was an adult wolf with, you know, a life of her own and a nation of her own.
Let me ask you about you.
Another part of the back of your book says, On the paths through the woods, hunting with the wolves, another me walks.
My hair grows longer.
I do not tie it up.
The blackberry bushes take hairs from me that I suppose the birds will use later.
Walking slowly and watching carefully, I think of the deer and their narrow, slotted hooves.
Step, pause, step, breathe, look!
Don't slap at the twigs that grab and poke.
Stroke them aside and soon they dance with my movements and gracefully let me pass.
The little wolf does these things naturally.
So, I guess that's your way of saying that as you were out there, you began, you began to take on a certain wildness yourself.
Yeah, and a slowness.
You know, people, one of the things that has to happen, I think, in order for us to fix what's going on in the world is we all have to slow down.
Because when you move fast, you make mistakes.
And people are living so quickly, I mean, like you're quickening.
I know.
The idea of the quickening.
Yes.
People are living so quickly that they don't have time to think about what they're doing.
They don't have time to think, well, how does this affect the environment, how I'm living?
And that makes it really hard to stop.
And then the other thing that has been interesting going on book tour down in California was people that I had talked to down there.
People were very nice to us down there.
I actually was born in Northern California.
But as we get farther and farther removed from the wilderness, people aren't going to know what they're losing.
And that's scary.
There was a woman at one book reading that said that she had met a man that was afraid to walk barefoot on the grass.
Now that's really losing your connection.
That's really scary.
I've kind of gone the other way in my adventure with this cat, Teresa.
In other words, I'm trying to tame a wild animal, a truly wild animal.
I've actually thought of writing a book about it myself because it has been the biggest adventure of my life.
It's impossible to convey to the listeners, but I spend hours per day trying to bond With this cat, and it works, but it works in very tiny little increments.
And had anybody else, anybody else, put their hands on this cat, I guarantee they would have put this cat down as something that could never be helped, never be tamed, never bond with any human being.
I have no idea how it could have become that wild, that feral.
Um, but it would not have lived.
Yeah.
Purity, it would not have lived.
Uh, they would have thought it, uh, perhaps even diseased.
You know, it was, it was lashing out.
But the truth is, when I finally got down to the basic personality of this cat, it is the sweetest animal I've ever seen.
And all wildness, or what I saw as wildness or craziness, Was fear.
Yeah.
It was only fear.
And when the fear fell away, then the personality emerged.
Yep.
And that, your story with your cat is a little bit like the story of Aniskim, the horse.
I was gifted a horse from the Blackfeet Horse Coalition, who are trying to get their horses back.
And this is a wild horse.
It's a buffalo horse, one of the old plains horses.
Oh, yes.
Fought on.
And he has been like that too.
Most of his, the problem was some people had come and roped him a couple of weeks before I came and had really scared him.
And then when I came, you know, I asked him if he wanted to go, if he wanted to come with me.
And we led him into the round pen with food and a tame gelding.
And I spent some time down there with him, petting him, trying to get him to smell me and realize I wasn't going to force him to come with me.
Sure.
If he wanted to come, he could come.
And spending time, that kind of patience, is a really good teacher for people, you know?
It's really good for the children to witness.
That slowness, that much time, and how, you know, the animal begins to look at you then not with fear, but with wonder.
Yes.
And that's a very beautiful thing.
Well, not many people are willing or able to be fair to them.
I mean, if you live in the middle of a city now, for example, Uh, there just simply is not the time.
No.
There's not the, uh, atmosphere.
You're just not able to do it.
So you're in a very unique position, uh, Teresa.
There you are, uh, in the middle of nowhere on an island.
Um, and we'll talk a little more about that in a moment.
Teresa, stand by.
We're at the top of the hour and we'll be right back, all right?
Okay, yeah.
All right, stay right there.
This, of course, Listen to what she's saying carefully.
She's a great red rose too.
I've seen him bloom for me and you.
And I think to myself, What a wonderful world.
It is if you just slow down and check it out a little bit.
We'll be right back.
I see skies of blue and clouds of white.
The bright pleasant day and the dark pleasant night.
Cannot wait.
An AM 1500 KSTP Available at www.amplified.com
It certainly is.
My guest is T. Martino.
Teresa Martino.
The Wall Art Bell, toll free, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
And it is a story of the return to wilderness of a wolf.
And I guess a woman, too.
Because Teresa is doing roughly the opposite of what I've been doing.
I've been trying to tame a wild animal.
And she took a wild animal that wasn't quite wild and reintroduced it to the wild.
It's a small, time-consuming, incremental, incredibly delicate thing to do.
It's quite a story.
We'll get back to hers in a moment.
6-5.
That's 1-800-232-5665.
You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
Tell them Art Bell sent you.
There are many, many, many wonderful pictures in Teresa's book.
But there is one toward the very beginning of Mackenzie that is absolutely A classic.
Teresa, welcome back.
Thanks.
Oh, that's really neat.
I can hear them in the background.
Yeah, they had a big chorus here just a minute ago, and then they stopped, and then they grabbed my... You know, they steal.
And they grabbed my coffee cup, and there's coffee now all over the floor.
And then they tried to grab my paper that I wrote all my stuff on.
Oh, no.
They're really... Those like paper, too, huh?
Oh, you know, if you need things shredded, Yeah.
Whoa, there they go.
Yeah, there they go.
Now, somebody writes and asks, um, Art, can you please ask Teresa how a hybrid wolf dog is for a pet?
You know, I can't say that I really, I try not to be judgmental on anyone because life is too complex to do that.
But, um, to be honest with you, I, I have my hesitation about having them as a pet.
Uh, even, um, You mean even the hybrids?
Yeah, because a lot of the hybrids are very hard to take care of, too.
And purebred wolves are very, very shy.
And in some ways, that makes them easier.
Whereas a hybrid, it can be anything.
It can have a very predatory nature and not be very shy.
And that can be not too good to have around.
The very low percentage animals are pretty much dogs.
And so to me, a hybrid wolf is not really a wolf.
What helped me with my feral cat was my other cats.
I've got two other cats.
Very, very domestic.
Sometimes too domestic, thank you.
And they helped immeasurably in sort of showing Comet, that's my cat, the wild one, occasionally the way and drawing Comet out when otherwise Comet would not have come near a human being.
Yeah, and I have a Weimaraner, an old Weimaraner dog that has done that.
And she's been around quite a few of the wolves.
And I think every time I have had a wolf to rescue, she's always looked at me and said, oh my God, not another wolf.
Not another wolf.
The cubs, I don't generally get them as cubs.
Usually people don't want them somewhere between six months and a year old when they find out how destructive they are.
In other words, a wild wolf taken as a cub is OK and cute for a while.
And runs around and does what a puppy would almost do and maybe a little more.
But then as it begins growing, instead of taming, it goes the other way and begins to get destructive.
Well, what they're doing, their destructiveness is really exploring.
In the wild, they need that ability and that intelligence and curiosity in order to live.
And they're the type of animals that, you know, just won't chew on the arm of your couch.
They'll tear the entire couch apart piece by piece.
In fact, I always have to keep these animals, you know, amused.
Somebody was taking some sofa cushions to the dump, and I said, well, can I have the sofa cushions?
And so I brought them to the wolves, and the wolves had a great time.
They just shredded them.
I thought it was really wonderful.
Uh, in my case, uh, with a cat, it's nothing more serious than a roll of paper or something like that, which they will shred, and I, uh, my wild one is slowly chewing its way around an entire box.
I use, uh, I've got these big paper boxes for, uh, uh, fax paper, and he has literally chewed two sides of an entire box to nothing.
Every morning I go out and pick up the little pieces of box.
It's sort of a habit with him.
It's at least fairly non-destructive.
Better that than the couch.
Yeah.
Anyway, listen, with Mackenzie, when did the final... I mean, months went by.
How long total did it take?
It was about a year.
A year?
I really started taking her out around four months.
She was already hunting rodents around the cabin in the woods by my house.
But you know obviously she couldn't go back on the island and so then I started taking her out at four months
and when did the final moment with Mackenzie come in other words that
moment when Mackenzie left you well
No anyway he What happened is I never knew exactly when she would go
back You know I had to keep trying to take her out and take her out and the final release I had kind of an idea when it would be and I wanted it to be in the spring when the young animals are born because they're much easier to catch.
Sure.
And then there's also you know animals are stillborn and there's more chance for her to be successful and more food around and we were out for a week to ten days with her Up north, me and my friend Mike.
Hi, Mike.
I know you're listening.
And he came to kind of keep, if we encountered any people, to kind of, you know, keep people away from us.
We were way out, but you still run into people out there now.
And she actually was successful hunting that trip with a deer.
And there was something about her that kind of changed.
After that happened and we went back down to our base camp and she wouldn't come back with us.
She had kind of made her decision.
So you knew then?
Yeah I knew then and then she did follow us part way back and you know I kind of mentally you know had a conversation with her you know saying you know do you want to come with me or not?
If you come with me that's fine if you don't want to that's fine too.
Were you sad?
Happy?
Oh it broke my heart.
It broke my heart to let her go.
But you know, again, it's like being a parent.
You know, the idea is not to keep the child forever, and you don't want someone to be a child forever.
You want to be an adult.
That's right.
That's kind of a strange thing about our culture, too, I think.
You know, I think it's cool to be an adult.
Yeah, I'm enjoying it myself, as a matter of fact.
And given an opportunity, I wouldn't want to go back.
Yeah.
I think that's the way things are meant to be.
Yeah.
Now, what's next for you?
I mean, you have wolves there now.
Well, we're trying to form a non-profit for the wolves.
That's one thing that's happening, and then I'm working also with the Blackfeet Buffalo Horse Coalition, and that is a project to get the horses back to the plains people, the native people.
Most of those horses were taken away from the plains people in the beginning of this century and killed.
And those horses were very important.
And the people had a breeding program, and some nations still do.
And I got involved with them, Bob Blackpool and his friends, and that's why they gifted me this one stallion.
I'm doing that, and I'm still riding.
What about this big controversy regarding Yellowstone and the reintroduction of the Gray Wolf to Yellowstone?
There's a lot of opposition to it.
Yeah, there is.
How do you feel about that?
The animals were already coming back.
The packs that are there now, from what I hear, are doing very well, are being very successful.
And there hasn't actually been that many problems.
I think slowly, as people realize the animals will work out there, the controversy will die away.
Well, as a matter of fact, it has sort of died away.
I haven't heard very much lately those great fear that They would stray from Yellowstone and begin killing wild livestock, that kind of thing.
And it just didn't occur.
Have you ever been in trouble with a wolf?
In other words, as you develop a relationship with any wild animal, there are moments when you can certainly get in trouble.
You misjudge or the animal misjudges.
You're both somewhat distrustful of each other.
As much as you mentally try to communicate, there are occasions where you can make mistakes.
And when I look at, for example, page 66, with a photograph of a wolf with its teeth showing, a mistake with a wolf could be potentially fatal.
It could be tough.
They're actually, they're much more into gesture, and they'll growl.
Then physical violence.
If they were as violent as people, there would be no PAX.
I mean, they wouldn't be able to work socially together.
I mean, make no mistake, they're very, very powerful.
In fact, Shoka, that's the Tundra wolf, got kind of angry at me the other day because he wanted to go outside and go on his run.
Run them on long lines.
And he didn't want to have the leash on.
And so I said, OK, well, you'll have to wait until you decide you want it on.
I took the other ones out and while I was opening the gate, he came up and very carefully grabbed the back of my sweater and pulled me over and dragged me, you know, three or four feet.
And they're tremendously powerful.
But the thing that amazes me about them is they're very careful, too.
When Shoka first came, when he was very, very young, I put him in with the two big males and, you know, they instantly adopted him and were very careful with him.
And he regards them as his parents.
The only time, I mean, when I get rescues that have been abused, because a lot of times what happens to animals that people fear is they beat them.
Yes, I know.
And with wolves, or with any animal, or with any person, that's just a, you know, it's a criminal thing.
It's very bad.
When that happens to a wolf, they can get, you know, very fouled up.
And those animals can be tough to deal with.
They can be potentially dangerous to deal with.
Mackenzie got angry with me one time and she was eating a rabbit and I was standing I guess
too close and she was very young and ambitious at that period of time and she saw me staring
at the rabbit and she ran up to me and grabbed my hands in her mouth and their back teeth,
not their fangs, but their back teeth are like shears.
They're very, very sharp.
And she just mouthed my hands and growled, didn't clamp, but just mouthed and I just
held still and then she let go and ran back to her rabbit.
That was like a warning.
It was a warning.
And that was about the most I've had happen with them.
That's lucky.
Yeah.
She was, she and I, though, I trusted her a lot and I, you know, most of it too with
people is what their attitude is, you know, what your feelings are about what's happening
if you're afraid.
Working with horses for a long time, you can't work, horses, you can't lie to a horse.
That's right.
You can't lie to wolves either.
You can't lie really to any animal.
They just, their perception of it is real high.
Now this may seem pretty wild, but I'll try it out on you.
I am convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt, and I'll take a lot of heat for this and I don't care, but in my work with this wildcat of mine over the last year, I have decided, Teresa, that humans can telepathically communicate with animals.
Telepathically.
I guess it's telepathic.
I don't know what else to call it or what other word that people would understand.
But I can put my head down near this cat and doing nothing else, holding it, which I can now finally do, it hears me.
I don't say anything.
But it cures me, and it begins purring.
It knows.
There's some sort of communication that's occurring between the two of us, and it knows.
Do you feel that that kind of communication is possible?
Yeah, I do.
Again, I'm like you.
I'm not sure if it's actually telepathy.
In the work with horses that I've done, the old masters didn't talk about it as telepathy.
But to me, it is something that comes not necessarily body language, but it comes from your body.
I trust my body.
I trust my gut, so to speak, more than my head.
Maybe it's our aura.
Maybe it's just an instinctual sensing of your feelings and emotions and intentions.
Telepathy is just a word.
But I know that if I concentrate on the projection of love and tenderness, If you read it, they can feel it.
You know, the cat's ears suddenly go from being laid back to straight up.
It knows that everything's okay.
And then pretty soon it becomes happy.
And so there is a kind of communication.
Telepathy may be a strong word, but it is only a word.
And people can feel this too.
I mean, between two people.
Or between a group of people.
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
Although modern city life has taken a lot of that away.
Yes, it has, and going fast.
You know, the animals, they live a slower, more pure existence.
How big is your island?
It takes about, oh, 15-20 minutes to drive the length, and maybe 10-12 minutes to drive the width.
Not big?
No, not too big.
And is there a great population there, or fairly sparse, or what's it like?
Um, it's, uh, kind of, it's rural, but it's slowly, you know, like everywhere else, you know, people are moving, uh, to it.
It seems like wherever you go, there is growth.
Um, I've been here for almost, oh, I don't know, nine years, and there has been growth here.
And so, in that sense, that's kind of scary to me.
Well, I understand that.
Is there a chance that, um, All of a sudden there are going to be covenants and restrictions and incorporations and pretty soon you won't be able to have your rules.
That's possible.
I mean, you know, I don't know.
I just kind of have to kind of trust that it'll work out.
I wouldn't be on the island if the people here didn't want me here because I couldn't have stayed unless I could have borrowed from my rent for the land.
I've kind of chosen a very creative, artistic way to live.
And there's not a lot of money in that.
No, there isn't.
But maybe there is in your book.
It's a wonderful book.
Thanks.
How do people get it?
Well, let me grab this thing that the wolves grabbed.
It's a little teeth mark.
They can call my publisher, which is Newsage Press, and that phone number is 503-695-2211.
is 503-695-2211.
And they can order it directly.
Yeah, or they could write, uh, Newsage Press, and that's N-E-W, capital S-A-G-E, Newsage Press.
Right.
P.O.
Box 607, Troutdale, Oregon, 97060.
You better do it again.
Uh, Newsage Press, P.O.
Box 607, Troutdale, Oregon, 97060.
Okay.
I got it, so if I did, everybody can get it?
And if they're interested in the Wolf non-profit we're trying to put together here, we haven't, it's pending, we haven't done it yet.
That address is Wolftown, P.O.
PO Box 13115, Burton Washington 9801.
All right.
What is your background, Teresa?
I'm half Italian.
My dad was first-generation Italian in this country, and my mother is mixed-blood Scotch-Irish Osage Indian.
Wow, that's some background.
Interesting.
What took you to an island off Washington?
I don't know.
Again, it was this weird synchronicity.
I was down in Northern California schooling horses.
That's what I do for a living.
I was kind of burned out on the big business aspect of the horse world.
I wanted to do it more as an art.
I was really more into it in the personalities and the love of the animals.
That partnership, the next book I'm working on is called Dancer on the Grass
and it's about the partnership between horses and people.
And, um, but I burned out of that big business thing and a friend of mine was teaching up here and she said,
I know exactly where you should go.
And I called a couple people and they invited me to come live with them, with the wolves.
I have had horses as well and love them.
So we've been down some of the same roads.
All right.
We're going to open the phone lines when we come back and let people ask you questions, if that would be all right.
All right.
T. Martino, T for Teresa Martino, is my guest.
Her book, The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness.
And it's really a good read, folks.
I'm Art Bell, and from the high desert, this is the CBC Independent American Network.
We'll be right back.
All right.
All right.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
In about 30 minutes, Richard Hoagland and company and the lid gets blown off what's been going on in Egypt.
It is the program you've been waiting for.
Tomorrow night, David Oates, reversals on Colonel Haynes.
The master of ceremonies at the Roswell News conference the other day.
That's the other one you've been waiting for.
I just can't wait for Huckery.
And if you want something that will take you back to the way things ought to be and sort of do a reset button for you, get Teresa's book, The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness.
You can get it by calling area code 503695 2 2 1 1 5 0 3 6 9 5 2 2 1 1
Now back to Teresa.
Teresa, we've got a lot of people who would like to speak to you, so are you ready?
Yep, I'm ready.
Okay, here we go.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with T. Martino.
Hi, how are you?
Good, how are you?
Oh, pretty good.
My name is Spike.
I'm on the road here.
I'm driving a truck, and they've been picking me up on a couple different stations.
1500 out of Minneapolis, and 1330, wherever that's at.
Anyway, I raise wolves as well.
Uh-huh.
And I've been at it since probably 1975.
I also have a female named Mackenzie.
Oh, how funny!
I got her when I was trucking up out of Canada.
Her mother was hit by a truck and she was probably five, six weeks old.
I've had her since.
So she trucks along with me.
I do have to say that she's fairly domesticated and acts like a normal canine.
But I wanted to ask you, have you heard that quote that Chief Dan George said about the world's I don't know why people are so afraid of them.
He said, when people don't understand something, they fear it.
And when they fear something, they tend to want to destroy it.
I kind of wanted to bring that up as part of the thing that the people up around Montana and Wyoming have been I appreciate the call.
Not the Blackfeet Nation, I actually brought the wolves out there and they were very welcoming
to the wolves.
Oh yeah, you'll find the Indians are very sympathetic towards that cause simply because
they figure that the wolf is almost close to God.
Alright sir, I appreciate the call.
Wolves though have been a symbol of fear and even evil for some, haven't they?
I think once humanity decided to domesticate livestock and once we were more agricultural based, staying in one place rather than hunting, we tended to look upon the wolf differently.
But when we were hunting, when people hunted for a living, I think we tended to look at the wolf as our brother and sister and as our teacher.
Are you a meat eater?
Yeah, I am.
I try and eat wild meat, though.
I'm not real keen on domestic meat, and I don't like the factory farming stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with T. Martino.
Hi.
Hi, am I on?
You're on.
Oh, okay.
This is Mike from St.
Louis.
Hi, Mike.
Hi, Mike.
This is the first time I've ever called in on a radio program.
And I'm calling because in the past I've had kind of a dangerous hobby, you might say.
I've shut down crack houses, and I've caught a rapist or two.
That kind of thing I've aided the police as a citizen.
That's a dangerous hobby, all right.
I'm thinking of moving out into the country.
And out in the country, I was going to protect myself with a lot of powerful dogs.
German Shepherds, Doberman Pit Bulls.
But would there be any advantage to trying it with wolves?
No, they're not good guard dogs at all.
Their tendency would be more to hide.
Oh, and I guess a hybrid that might take the fear of man away It might also make them hide or unreliable or protect or
perhaps even attack.
See, I would rather go after the problem of why a person would be so afraid that they
need to have something like that as protection.
I'd rather go after the problem itself rather than to try and barricade myself in.
Maybe that's an idealistic way of looking at it because I live on an island where you
don't have to lock your doors.
I was about to actually make that comment to you, Teresa.
Unfortunately, in today's world, whether you like it or not, if you're on the mainland, you really have to be security conscious.
And it's a shame that it has to be that way, but I own guns and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I'm much more afraid of the two-legged variety.
Then I am of anything that's out there roaming the desert with four legs.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Teresa Martino.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Hi.
I'm so glad to get a hold of you.
Thank you.
I have a few questions for Teresa.
Are wolves being reintroduced to the Midwest?
Yeah, they are, the red wolves.
How far down?
I believe Texas.
South Carolina?
I mean, are they around the St.
Louis area?
That, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure of that.
Also, I was wondering, if you come across an animal while you're driving, and it's a large tide dog or a wolf, how can you tell by visually looking?
at a distance if it's a wolf or a dog.
That's a good question, actually.
How can you, Teresa?
Well, if you're way up north, they're very hard to spot in the wild, to be perfectly honest with you.
There's very few people that actually see them in the wild.
If you are driving and you see an animal that is a hybrid or part-bred animal, it's kind of difficult to tell the percentage unless they're a very high percentage.
Wolves generally have kind of a loose-legged trot, Uh, they're generally very slender.
Uh, they have smaller ears than, uh, and more closely set than sort of a Husky or Malamute.
Smaller than German Shepherds.
Their tails do not curl at all.
They have dewclaws only on their front paws.
Their toenails are always black.
They have very, very long fangs.
Um, they generally have, even the white ones, will have a few black hairs or darker hairs on their saddle area.
and the base of their tail and the tip of their tail.
Well, that sounds quite distinguished.
Um, how, why do we want wolves back in this country?
Uh, across the south, across the midwest, in the northwest.
Why do we want wolves back?
I think it's something that we're missing in our hearts.
I think we're, uh, we're, we're missing the wolf howl and we're, we're missing these wild creatures because they
define us.
They're part of the world.
If you believe that the world is one, there's something in the wolf that's very valuable to us.
And the great bear and the eagle and everything else.
And once they're gone, I think there's some of us.
We're going to be diminished, too.
There's something in us that will be gone, too.
I agree.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Teresa Martino.
Hi.
Hi, I'd like to know.
I'm calling from Washington.
Okay.
And I'd like to know, would they?
I heard they're going to bring wolves in the National Parks up here.
I'd like to know if they would still bring them.
They're still going to bring them up here?
I think they are, yeah.
The Olympics, you mean?
Yeah.
Yeah, I think they are.
I think they decided to pass that.
You know when they're going to start bringing them up?
I don't.
I don't know.
Oh.
Well, I just want to say, how many wolves did you have because I've just been listening from 11 o'clock?
I have two and a half wolves.
I have one that's half bred and two wolves.
And she took one wolf back to the wilderness over a period of about a year.
She reintroduced this wolf, named Mackenzie, back to the wilderness and she actually went with this wolf Day by day by day to reintroduce it to being a wolf.
Well, that would be kind of sad for me doing that.
It was sad for me too.
It was sad.
It's like a family, letting go of a family member.
Yeah.
But, you know, it was letting her go into the life that she was meant to live.
And she was successful in going back to her life.
And I was able to go up and visit her a couple of times.
And so that made me more reassured.
And she was doing fine?
Yeah.
She made it?
Yeah, she did.
How did she react to you when you saw her again after all that time?
Well, the first time, I'm not going to give it away too much because it's in the back, the end of the book.
But the first time, I didn't think I would see her again.
And I went up there and was very disappointed.
And she actually surprised me.
And that was kind of a very touching moment for me, to have had her surprise me.
Oh, I bet it was.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Teresa Martino.
Hi.
Yes, hi Art.
How are you?
Fine.
And Teresa, how are you this evening?
Good.
Or this morning.
Yeah, Art, it's a pleasure to get through to you.
I can't believe it.
I've been listening to you since January.
There have been many topics that I've really tried to call all night to get through to you and haven't been able to.
I pulled for Federal Express between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis.
No, they don't call themselves Federal Express anymore.
FedEx.
FedEx, that's right.
They don't want to be confused with the government.
I don't blame them.
I don't blame them a bit.
I wanted to ask Ms.
Martinez, and this is really maybe an offbeat question, but I think it's relative to what she is doing and what she's into.
Since you have spent so much time in the wild and with wild creatures, by the way, how are you this evening?
Good!
Do you think that man is of the natural world, or do you think that we are separate from it?
That's a very good question.
It is a good question.
I think we are absolutely part of the natural world.
And let me read this to you, because I'm just looking at it.
It just happened to be in the book.
Far from the wilderness or maybe closer than you think.
Listen to the blood in your veins.
You belong to the earth.
You are wild.
Mackenzie, the grey one, gives you a gift.
She gives you her name.
And she asks you, hunting with piercing yellow eyes, do you know your relatives?
Look for me in the north.
I still go to the mountains.
I have family there and so do we all.
The wolf people teach us to hunt and care for our kin.
The singing people guard the game to keep them strong.
Our teachers and partners, the guides and the guardians, call us.
We are invited back to Coyote's Campfire to belong again.
To sit on our mother's lap and be natives of the land.
How do you think that our instinctual wildness, and we were once certainly wild, manifests itself today?
It's pretty well suppressed.
We're civilized, supposedly.
Um, but there are little feelings of wildness occasionally, and I can only imagine as you went back into the wilderness to spend a year, you really began to get in touch with it.
What did that feel like?
For me, it felt very natural.
I think our definition of wilderness needs to be, it needs to be redefined.
Wilderness, a lot of times, equals dangerous and unpredictable, and that's not it to me.
Our wilderness, you know, a wolf, it's wild, lives for the pack.
It lives for the good of the pack, for the social group.
Right.
And humanity could, you know, learn a great lesson from looking at the wolves, the way they live.
Horses live that way too in the wild.
They live for the good of the herd.
They do, yes.
Yeah.
And, um, I think, uh, with humanity, if you take a wild animal and you cage it, and you domesticate it to a certain extent, it makes it crazy.
You know what I'm saying?
If you have a wild animal that's caged and is taken out of its natural environment, it loses some of itself and it can make it mentally unstable.
And I think that's happened to humanity too.
Yeah, I think a good part of humanity is mentally unstable.
That's a fair comment.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with T. Martino.
Hi.
Yes, Art.
My name's Scott.
I'm calling from Phoenix.
Yes, sir.
I've not been listening to the program, so I don't know what you're discussing tonight.
Well, in that case, you shouldn't be calling.
Oh.
I appreciate your call, sir.
Thank you.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with T. Martino.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Teresa.
Hi.
I live out in the country, and I'm a big dog lover.
No offense, Art.
Uh, I don't own a dog, and really I just don't need one because I have daily visitation from all the neighbor dogs.
Oh!
Including a black lab, a shall, and one of our neighbors who has a husky.
And we have come to refer to this dog as the wolf dog.
especially at night when we're out in the yard sitting many evenings, this this husky will just
appear out of nowhere. He'll honor us with his presence for a few minutes
and then more often than not as quickly as he appears he's gone. I have yet to ever hear this
dog bark. He yelps and he's quite a howler too and he will he will lie on his on his stomach with
with his front legs spread apart and leap into the air.
And what I wonder, Teresa, would it be reasonable to say that of all the dog breeds, maybe a husky would most closely resemble in mannerisms and physical appearance a wolf?
Resemble in a rough way.
The mannerisms, I don't think so, because the purebred wolves are extremely shy.
They really are shy.
And most northern dogs I've met have not been really that shy.
But you know, we never see this dog during the daylight.
It's only at night that he appears.
Yeah.
And he appears out of nowhere.
And it's almost like he's a stealth dog.
Uh-huh.
All right.
Are wolves, Teresa, nocturnal?
Yeah.
Most of the time they are.
So then, when you took Mackenzie back to the wild, did you basically become nocturnal?
I pretty much had to.
And then, you know, we tried to kind of compromise of going out real early in the morning and then at dusk.
Sure.
But, you know, they can get up and hunt any time, you know, if they get hungry.
It just depends on the family group, what they're used to and what they want to do.
But for the most part, they're quite active at night.
Hmm.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
But you're not allowed to use your last name on the air.
All right.
It's about the only rule we have here, so let's try it all over again.
Your name is Robert, and you're where, Robert?
In Houston, Texas.
Houston.
All right.
Good.
Go ahead.
The thing is, is that we had, this is back in 1968, to about 1975. We had this one highway we called the
Highway 6. And when you were driving down there towards I-10 West and you got off the freeway
and you went down this one road, it was like a dark, dark road back in 1968. And we were
driving and we came across this one corner that my father was telling me was called the
Wolf Corner. Well, we stopped, we parked the car and he would show us exactly what was out
there. And there was everything from about 30 to 35 dead, shot wolves hanging upside down
on the side of this one fence.
And it was dramatic.
I mean, I, I just about fainted.
I couldn't believe that there was so many wolves and it was like out there in the, in the wilderness, uh, you know, on the side of, uh, uh, the city of Houston.
Well, maybe Teresa, go ahead.
I was going to say, what year was this?
This was in 1968 until 1975.
There was a corner, they called it the Wolf Corner, and it was out there at Highway 6 and I-10.
Well, there was a... Listen, we're about out of time, folks, but Teresa, there was a time in this country when we virtually decided to eliminate wolves.
We did, successfully, pretty much.
They were gone?
Yeah, we pretty much killed all of them.
That's why, you know, they're doing the return.
Will they come back, do you think, in large numbers?
What do you think will happen with this program?
Well, the game determines how many there are.
Wolves are very organized in the way they keep their populations.
If the game animals are few, they don't have very many cubs.
Well, listen, it surely has been a pleasure.
Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
And, again, your book, The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness, is... I didn't even ask you how much it is.
How much is it?
It is $14.95.
$14.95.
Really reasonable, folks.
Area code 503-695-2211, correct?
1495. Really reasonable folks. Area code 503-695-2211 correct? Yeah. Teresa we will do it again sometime.
We didn't have enough time.
I thank you, and good luck with your wolves.
Well, thank you, Art.
I appreciate it.
Take care.
Night, everybody.
That's Teresa Martino.
The wolf.
The woman.
The wilderness.
Neat.
Wild animals.
Neat.
I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
Don't go anywhere.
Richard C. coming up.
So, are West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
It is.
Good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell.
618-8255, 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033, 1-800-825-5033, this is the CBC Radio Network.
It is. Good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell, coming up, the program that you have been bugging me for.
Those of you who have wanted to know with the not so subtle hints what's been going on in Egypt are about to find out.
I would like to address the audience that's coming along with me to Egypt in October.
Several of you have called the agency and said, well, is this going to mean that we can't go to Giza?
No.
No, it isn't.
All of you are going to get to go.
Now, whether I'm going to be able to get off the ship at Alexandria after tonight's program is another question.
Hopefully, the answer is yes.
Possibly, the answer is no.
That gives you some idea of what you're about to hear, or the gravity of it.
Richard C. Hoagland and his Agent Provocateur, that's a word I'll use, just back from Egypt, literally hours ago, with proof in hand, and we're going to tell you all about it, coming up in a moment.
So buckle in, everybody.
Telemart Bell told you to call.
That's 1-800-406-0469.
1-800-406-0469.
Now, Engstrom Science Award winner, investigator, science advisor to Walter Cronkite,
and one-time science advisor to NASA.
As a matter of fact, when you enter NASA grounds now in Houston, you will see a large statue erected to Richard C. Hoagland.
He's my guest.
Richard?
Good morning, Art.
Yes, good morning.
Richard, we're going to talk about Egypt tonight.
This is something that you and I have been discussing privately for, I don't know, What, a couple of months now?
At least a couple of months.
Hopefully we're going to pull some very major threads together and lay out this tapestry that we've been carefully weaving over, in fact, the last several years.
Tonight is going to be one for the books.
Okay.
How much trouble are we going to be in when it's over?
Well, given that we're opening a system that has been closed and kept It's secretive by a tiny handful of people, very similar to other institutions that we've talked about.
Yes.
I don't think we're going to be in much trouble at all, because before our representative left Cairo this morning, he provided the evidence that we're going to provide to America tonight to key Egyptian officials, to the editor, the assistant managing editor of one of the major Cairo newspapers, And to a group of independent archaeologists who are not part of the in crowd that has been controlling access and discussions on the plateau.
So what we're doing tonight is in essence simultaneously Launching the American side of a major investigation to open up the secrets at Giza that have been held by a few for far too long.
Alright, this is going to create a definite storm.
And what I'm hoping, as you know I'm going in October, I'm hoping the storm plays itself out before October.
And that the sky is clear over Giza for me.
I guess that would be the best way to put it.
You tell me when you want to bring Larry on.
Okay.
Well, let me set the stage here.
Sure.
There are a couple of announcements that I want to make before.
First of all, let me give an update for all those who are following the Pathfinder story.
Yes.
Tonight, 36 hours after the mid-course correction, the last mid-course correction, Of this little spacecraft, a few million miles away from Mars, many, many millions of miles from Earth, NASA finally, on its websites all over the world, got around to posting the results of this mid-course burn yesterday morning.
And the time lag is curious, because all they've done on the website is to say, we've done it.
And they list the instantaneous, in essence, tracking data, which indicates that their maneuver was within 4% in one direction and 1% in another.
And that data would have been achieved literally within an hour or so after the burn was made and the spacecraft turned around and recontacted the Earth.
So, the gap of 36 hours in putting this on the website is very, very curious.
Now, in part, this could be explained by everyone being diverted by the mirror accident and, you know, drama going on upstairs.
Sure.
But even so, we're talking about a dedicated group of engineers who are working Bathfinder as their job.
And I am, you know, a little bit baffled as to the reason for the gap.
If things progress as advertised now, They are claiming and they actually have the map up on the website showing the target coordinate at 19.5 degrees and the center of the new ellipse from the tracking data of their last midcourse at 19.45 degrees.
And they say they are on course to a morning landing at about 10 o'clock Pacific time on Mars on July 4th.
Now, as you know, last week I very strongly indicated that we don't think that's going to happen.
Right.
That they're going to somehow have an interesting set of events intervene which will delay the landing to July 20th.
And it may or may not be at their advertised landing site.
In fact, it could well be at Cydonia.
There is a very important gap now between what NASA is stating And what we are predicting.
I don't want to be shy about this.
There is a definite divergence here of two views of reality.
One curious footnote.
NASA has posted on its website an advertisement for the little model that Mattel has made of the lander, the Pathfinder lander, the tetrahedral spacecraft, and the mini rover.
And if you go to your website or our website, you will see that Keith has linked To JPL, to Caltech, to the full page press release that JPL wrote announcing the availability of this Mattel toy commemorating Sojourner and the Pathfinder Lander.
So it's all kind of in limbo and I don't know where we're going other than we have predictions firmly on the board and we'll just have to see what happens as the clock runs out.
So we can all get our own little Pathfinder.
That's right.
And it's made of metal, and it's got little reticulated wheels, and it's supposed to be a neat little thing.
And who knows why anyone would want one, unless something really remarkable happens.
All right, well, that hangs.
You're right.
Unless something really remarkable happens, and they know it's going to happen.
We'll leave that one, though, for the next few days.
We'll just have to wait and see.
Is there any update on Mir, just before we launch to Egypt here?
Is there any update on Mir that you know of?
Well, the interesting thing about the Mir story is that it is now developing that they're going to launch a Progress rocket probably in the next week or so to bring up supplies.
And in essence, what they're discussing is because when the Progress supply rocket or capsule, whatever you want to term this, ran into them yesterday, when they lost control of it for reasons that are totally unclear at this point, and it literally put a hole in the hull of the Spectre module, which was Mike Fole's module with all his bio Uh, engineering and medical experiments where he actually lived and had his exercise gear and his clothes and his toothbrush and his toothpaste.
It was so interesting to hear him asking for five tubes of toothpaste to be sent up on the resupply rocket this morning.
Um, their plan is now to basically send them a bunch of new equipment, including jumper cables.
And they're planning to string power cables, in essence, you know, super long jumper cables.
Sure.
From the solar panels that are still functioning on the outside of that module.
Either outside by doing an EVA, a spacewalk, along the hull to the batteries inside in the part of the station that's still functioning.
Or an internal spacewalk.
Or an internal.
What's interesting to me is, unlike the American sophistication where when you dock you have little Uh, power latches that automatically seat and nest?
Sure.
They apparently, when they dock these things, the Russian technology is so simple that they literally had strung wires through the airlock.
And when they had to close the doors, to keep the air from rushing out, they literally cut the cables in two.
Oh boy.
I mean, that's primitive.
That's primitive.
But it works.
And the Russian philosophy in space has always been keep it simple, stupid.
And that's why I think these guys are still alive.
Again, testimony to a Russian philosophy of build it big, build it heavy, you know, build it well, and it will stand even a collision.
The interesting thing to me is, as I said last night, this drama would play itself out over the next several days or maybe weeks, and now it looks like that the spacewalk is going to take place right across the 20th of July.
In which case, no space reporter worth his salt is going to be caring at all what happens on Mars, or if a spacecraft disappears, or anything.
But we'll be focused on Mir.
Of course, the man, the drama.
Yeah.
Again, a remarkable set of coincidences.
Which segues to my third announcement tonight.
Remember the other night that I hinted that we were considering taking the Enterprise team and going to Phoenix?
Yes, of course.
Doing a major presentation in downtown Phoenix, in the heart of this interesting place that apparently has connections to the Moon, to Mars, to Egypt, and to Pathfinder.
Well, we have now reached the point where I can announce that we are going to be doing this.
It's going to be called the Monuments of Mars, a Phoenix Connection, question mark.
And joining me as part of a rather interesting evening on the 14th of July, which is the anniversary of the first U.S.
Mars flyby, Mariner 4, back in 1965.
In fact, it was my first project that I conducted at a private museum, the Museum of Science at Springfield, with NASA.
We had, you know, open radio lines.
We did lasers across the valley.
Sure.
We had Alan Heineck on as one of our guests that night.
It was my first... I was 19.
Shivering, you know, shaking in the knees.
We'd put all this thing together.
Well, on that anniversary, it turns out, coincidentally, and we really didn't plan this, we're going to, in Phoenix, in the potentially, tentatively, the Phoenix Civic Center itself, We're booking the major room, and we haven't quite finished the details, so I can't announce firmly that that is a done deal.
But we're going to be there all evening, and the last two hours of this presentation, which will connect the face on Mars and Cydonia, the pyramids of Egypt, the hyperdimensional physics, which of course is codified in sacred geometry, the entire NASA and Russian space program, Masonic knowledge, The founding of Phoenix, which, as you know, we're now zeroing in on, including the role of Ulysses S. Grant and others, the lights over Phoenix, seen on March 13th, and a lot more, including now a presentation by our guest of the evening here on the Art Bell Show.
We're going to lay this all out for an audience live in Phoenix.
And for the last two hours of this evening and the first two hours of your show, you are going to join us, Art.
Yes, indeed.
You want to describe how?
Uh, electronically.
We tried to get him out of Pahrump, folks, and he would not budge.
By the way, and that is quite an announcement, yeah, we'll be there electronically.
I think it's my best place, Richard.
I would love to come down, but I am best suited to be here and to interface between what you're doing and the audience.
Well, what we're going to be able to do is an electronic Donahue kind of thing.
Because through your good offices, we can have the country Participate and ask questions of our panelists.
We can in turn have reaction from the floor of people who've seen the whole data presentation so that they can get, you know, your audience, your radio audience, get a feel for what people are thinking and feeling and reacting to what we're going to lay out for them.
And we're going to also have some other surprises.
For instance, I have figured out that because of the brilliance of Scotty Rowland, Keith And this device called the webcam.
We can have you in Phoenix as well.
Well, that's true.
We're going to electronically project up on two huge screens.
Oh, no.
Mark Bell's studio, in color, live from Pahrump.
And side by side, as a split screen, we're going to be rotating our TV cameras, because we're going to be filming and videoing the whole thing.
Because afterwards, we're going to make a video.
And for everyone who can't be in Phoenix, Who would like to be in Phoenix will make the video available through Art Show after the fact, probably a couple of weeks after the fact, if we do our homework correctly and do the editing.
So you can see the whole thing in sequence and see Art's participation and what we've laid out in the data and all the connections that we're in the process of now busily figuring out.
And we've got some really neat folks in Phoenix who are finding some extraordinary connections and linkages, including satellite photography now, Strange things going on in the hinterlands around Phoenix?
Might I add, Richard, I have a very reliable report that in Las Vegas, just this last Monday, they had a large boomerang-shaped thing that was in the sky for quite some time.
I've got reports from dispatchers here.
It's not quite a Phoenix, but it's pretty close, Richard, over Las Vegas.
I don't know if you'd heard about that or not.
I had heard about that, yes.
Yes.
And, you know, again, there's something going on.
I don't know what it is.
I don't know who's doing it, but something is building, and it's building, I believe, toward a crescendo on July 20th.
Let me give people an information number to call.
We can't formally announce ticket sales tonight because, I said, with a couple of sales left to be done.
But if you want to get on a list to be called back, if you want to participate in this, if you want to drive over to Phoenix, I would recommend that you call these folks very early because The seats will go fast.
So the information line to call is area code 602-944-2434.
That's 602-944-2434.
Now let me tell you who's going to be on the program.
All right, go ahead.
Jim Dilettoso.
Oh, Jim will be there.
Who is the computer expert who has done the 3D analysis of the Phoenix lights and who I've known for
years and who is a consummate professional Francis Barwood
Who is the Phoenix City Councilwoman who basically broke this and forced them politically to finally address the
constituents?
Questions as to what happened in March over over downtown Phoenix
Let me stop you there for one second and say I've received some amount of confirmation that Senator McCain is beginning to call for an investigation.
Apparently he sent a very strong letter to the Air Force saying you will over my dead body throw my second letter in the circular file.
Yeah.
Now, I cannot promise that Senator McCain will join us, but I'm going to give it the old college try.
So, I'm announcing that as a kind of a wild card thing tonight.
I'd like to try to get him there.
Frances says that she will ask, and who knows, he might show up.
Alright.
Ken Johnston, Senior, will be with us.
Ken, of course, is a NASA veteran, test astronaut with over 3,000 hours in the Lunar Module.
You know, taught Buzz and Neil everything they know.
And has also the expertise of being a 32nd degree mason.
And we're finding such stunning masonic correlations between Phoenix, the program, the NASA program we've been laying out, Egypt, and the administration's of past years efforts to incorporate Phoenix in a very special way that we felt he would be important to have on the program.
And finally, a former NSA data analysis, National Security Agency, has a lot of people who do nothing but data analysis.
We have the good services of one of those who is in Phoenix, lives in Phoenix,
runs a company called Historical Data Retrieval, and who is avidly now involved in digging up
all of the arcane history that we can find on this very interesting town.
All right, hold it right there.
We'll be right back.
And when we get back, folks, we're going to be talking about Egypt.
So buckle down.
Trust me, it will take your breath away.
This is CBZ.
Let me have it, let me do it The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP
The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP
The Talk Station AM 1500 KSTP Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
That's 702-727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am, top of the morning everybody.
Anybody could be there.
My guest is Richard C. Hoagland and company.
Agent for Mockitour, who just got back from Egypt.
And in a moment, that's what we're going to launch.
So get ready.
That's 888-G-O-L-D-K-R-C.
All right, from Carol in Mesa, Arizona.
And I don't want to dwell on this, because as Richard has told you, there's going to be a big confab in Phoenix.
But according to Carolyn Phoenix, yes, Senator McCain is indeed calling for an investigation with regard to what occurred above the city of Phoenix on March 13th.
She continues that one of KFYI's daytime talk show hosts has been ridiculing people about all of this, including Jim Delitoso, and calling people nitwits and so forth, and calling for people in Phoenix to get their feet back on the ground.
Interesting, uh, and I wonder how he imagines that this incident did not occur, and I wonder why whoever it is, uh, thinks that, uh, people who want to know what's going on are nitwits.
That's a word that I probably would not, uh, uh, choose to use with regard to those who want investigation of what occurred over Phoenix, or for that matter, what occurred over the skies recently of an area right next to me, Las Vegas.
As a matter of fact, we had Mr. Dilettoso, who's been on CNN repeatedly on this program, along with an Arizona MUFON member, and I rather thought the Arizona MUFON member did not much have his act together in trying to challenge Mr. Dilettoso, but that's another story.
Richard?
Yes, sir?
Egypt.
Well, one of the things we're going to do on this evening in Phoenix on July 14th is to have some surprises.
And one of the surprises is a gentleman I'm about to introduce, because this is a moving story.
It has many different venues going simultaneously, many different parts of the puzzle, and they all apparently are now converging on this midsummer July 20th date.
So let me set the stage here, alright?
The gentleman I'm going to introduce is named Larry Hunter.
I met Larry through a very good friend of mine in Los Angeles a couple of years ago when I was in town speaking and my friends had asked me if I would meet a rather interesting and unusual inventor who had predicated some of his inventions including a key solar collector concept around the pyramid geometry and architecture of the plateau and the designs of Pisa.
And I said, OK, Randy, that's his name and my friend's name.
I said, bring him on.
It was a very busy schedule and we wound up meeting at a little coffee shop for lunch.
And what struck me was not only was Larry interesting as a person and obviously had some background and some depth And knew what he was talking about, at least in my perspective.
But I also instantly realized that not one person in a hundred would get what Larry was trying to do.
And that really made him a kindred soul.
So we hit it off right away.
And one of the things he did at lunch was to fill the table with rocks.
Because as part of his engineering and his due diligence on the solar power collector concept, He also had, it turned out, spent many, many, many years going to and from Egypt and doing site surveys for his other passions.
So he was gleaning information from Egypt to use in his invention.
That's correct.
But simultaneously he was looking into the archaeology and to get beneath the myths of current contemporaneous archaeology.
Which says that Egypt, you know, the pyramids were built in the last 5,000 years and etc, etc, etc.
That they were basically huge monuments to egomad, you know, idiots called pharaohs.
Yes.
And he filled this lunch table, between the plates and the cups and the saucers and whatever, with rocks.
From the desert, not only of the plateau, but around the plateau.
And he, as the waitress kept coming and the rest of our party kept looking, he and I carried on this interesting conversation, moving plates aside and moving rocks aside and, you know, putting rocks here and putting rocks there and doing basically stellar cartography on the ground, mirroring what is apparent in the sky over ancient Egypt that he independently has been looking at quietly long before Baval got interested in the scene.
So that really got me intrigued with who this individual Larry Hunter was.
Besides, I also then found out that Larry Hunter loves cats.
Oh, good for him.
Larry Hunter lives with a number of cats.
In fact, I think, Art, if you ask him really kindly, we can get him to proffer one of his cats into the cat box.
All right.
The cat box is an area of the website where we put cat pictures.
And one of the links here is that us cat people The audience needs to understand that you and I have been sitting on information for a couple of months now that we could not quite confirm sufficiently to go public with it.
And what Larry has done is to give us, bring back, as a matter of fact he's just back from Egypt today, actually yesterday now.
With the evidence that is going to allow us to go public with what you're about to hear.
So why don't we bring him on and then I'll kind of go through the rest of the story.
Sure.
I won't do what I normally do is make everybody wait till the very, very end.
Yeah, please don't.
Larry, welcome to the program.
Thank you, Art.
Larry, you're down in Los Angeles now, correct?
Yes, sir.
When did you get back from Egypt?
11.30, my plane touched onto the ground.
11.30 this... 11 o'clock, and I was out of customs by 11.30.
That was this morning?
Yes, sir.
Or yesterday morning now?
The 26th.
Right, okay.
Alright, well there he is, Richard.
Fresh back from Egypt.
It's up to you, what did he bring?
Well, what Larry has brought, and I don't want to leap to the end of the story, but I wanted to tell you what he's got.
He has hard evidence in the form of actual samples from inside the Great Pyramid, testifying to an unknown and probably, and I'm going to use this term, probably illegal excavation going on inside the Great Pyramid, even now.
He has brought back video Uh, a, what is it, about an hour, hour and twenty minute interview?
Yeah.
With a key person who has witnessed some of these remarkable events.
The interview is all in Arabic and we're going to have to have it translated.
And we're not going to reveal the name of the interviewee for obvious reasons because he is still in Egypt and we want to protect his safety.
He would be in immediate danger.
He has been threatened.
And it was only with great skill that Larry, with the aid of a friend or two in Egypt, was able to convince him over the protestations of his own family to eventually describe what occurred and the threats that he is under and things like that.
Well, let us go back to what we thought we knew a couple of months ago, Richard, and let's tell people what it is just flat out.
Okay.
Why don't you tell them?
In other words, There have been parties, there have been people that have gone to Egypt, organizations, have taken photographs, done x-ray work, have done a lot of groundwork, and inevitably after they go over there and do the groundwork, they're kicked out.
Zahi Hawass and company?
Exactly.
Kick them out, and then there has been a suspicion that Zahi proceeds to do his own excavation.
He lets them do the groundwork, spend the money, and then takes over and goes for the glory.
This is a pattern that I personally have observed with people that I know, like Lambert Dolphin and SRI, going back to the early 70s, to 1973, and later 70s, 78.
More recently, in the early 80s, and Larry, interrupt me at any time when I make a misstatement here, there were French teams, there were Japanese teams brought in to use gravimeters, which are devices that are very sensitive to minute variations in gravity, to find secret chambers inside.
And as soon as they found something, they were given the heave-ho.
There were rumors of radioactive sand Being found in one of those chambers.
Really?
Say again, Larry?
The ones that were being bored on the west walls coming in the passages to the Queen Chamber.
That's correct.
Radioactive?
Radioactive sand.
And they were stopped at that moment, or supposedly stopped, but there was a gentleman in Switzerland that sort of said that that was filmed and there were a lot of celestial drawings on the walls.
And that they did indeed see what was in those rooms.
All right.
And then there... Richard, let me stop you.
Then there is this... You have told us of this, Richard.
Please refresh everybody's memory.
There is a long, very narrow tunnel, which a robot was sent up.
In 1991.
In 1991.
Rudolf Gentenbrink.
1993, wasn't it, Richard?
No, it was 91.
I thought it was 91.
93, April.
93, you're right, you're right.
All right, the robot was set up.
Rudolf Kennenbrink, who was a German engineer, operating under the German Archaeological Institute, with licenses from Dr. Hawass, and supposedly the Antiquities Council, came to Egypt, to the pyramid, ostensibly To use this robot to clean the shafts, the air shafts, leading from the King's Chamber at a 45 degree angle, north and south, out to the exterior of the pyramid.
Right.
In fact, it now turns out, from extensive documentation that has been provided to me by, among other people, Robert Bavall, that what Denzenbrink all along was wanting to do, And apparently, uh, you know, elicited the cooperation of Dr. Hawass in doing was to send his little robot up the slatted shaft below the King's Chamber from the Queen's Chamber.
The shaft that, uh, I've called the, uh, uh, ISIS shaft, the Syria shaft, and is mentioned prominently in, in Baval's book, The Orion Mystery.
Mm-hmm.
At about, is it 180 feet, Larry?
Of that shaft?
A little further than that.
Maybe 188.
Genton Brink's little robot with a closed-circuit TV camera and a laser on it encountered an end of the passage.
This four, I'm sorry, eight-inch square passage, where obviously no human being could ever get.
And at the end of this passage, 188 feet up this slanted shaft, there was a door, or a portcullis, which is the technical term.
On which there were apparently affixed two copper handles, which were intensely corroded in the light of the robot and the color TV camera.
And this was all shown on national television.
It was shown on the BBC, and it was shown on A&E here.
And, you know, we have the tapes.
No sooner had Gandenbrink found the door, but on the TV view, on the lower right-hand portion, you could see there was a little crack.
And the door was meant to be open.
In fact, the two little handles were a device designed to prevent the door from being raised fully.
Exactly.
That's what I was trying to say.
It was a lock hinge.
That's right.
It looked like a lock hinge.
And when the door would come down, you could never raise it fully back up because those would keep it, by hitting on the top of the shaft, being raised fully.
So it's like a puzzle.
Exactly.
It's a puzzle.
Now, the little crack at the bottom right-hand corner was big enough to show that the laser, when they focused the beam on the dark crack, disappeared.
There was no facing behind it, meaning it was going into empty space, an unknown room or chamber or crevice or declavity or... So there was some big room there.
Something behind the little 8-inch square door.
Gotcha.
Now, as soon as I heard this, and this was from, you know, back in 93, I said to myself, aha, because it confirmed in my mind my own model, which is that the Great Pyramid is not a tomb, it's a time capsule.
And how do you protect an extraordinarily important find in the middle of six and a half million tons of limestone piled up in a cone shape, which has been ravaged by, you know, Imams and Englishmen and Frenchmen and Japanese and American tourists and graffitized and attacked by every possible culture to try to get at the treasure in the pyramid.
Yes.
Answer?
You put the real prize deep inside of a tiny narrow shaft that no human being could ever get into until the culture behind that human being developed science and technology and engineering There are still aspects of this tunnel, though, that we do not understand.
In other words, why would there be a door that a human could not get to, that even if you could get to, could not be opened?
Star shafts.
I beg your pardon?
Star shafts.
Star shafts.
What do you mean by that, please?
The room leading off Gant to bring through Robert Bohol, at least in his work, demonstrated the math that correlated this particular shaft off the Queen's Chamber to point directly to Cirrus as it would cross the new meridian on the south side of the Great Pyramid, or the gateway into the Orion constellation.
Let me stop you there, Larry.
In the Egyptian text, there is a profound connection, over and over again, between the pharaonic Egyptian model The guy at the top of the pyramid, the Pharaoh.
And the stars of the Orion Complex.
And Sirius, as Isis, the chief consort of Osiris, Orion, the Pharaoh in the sky, was a key component of this mythology.
And so, what Buval has been looking at for many years, and Batawe and Virginia Trimble, ...began looking at years before, back in 1965, was at the alignment of these shafts as they strike up toward the exterior of the pyramid from deep inside.
In fact, it was not at random that these shafts aimed at key stars in the belt of Orion, and the lower shaft, the one coming up from the Queen's Chamber, was suspected to be aimed toward Sirius.
As Sirius would rise and set, the pyramid would aim almost like a rifle sight.
Exactly.
And if the shaft were open, you could stand at the bottom and look up the shaft and see Sirius, but of course it's not open.
There's, what, maybe 100, 200 feet of solid limestone masonry between the end of that shaft, that little door, and the exterior of the pyramid.
And the bottom of the shaft... How big is that shaft?
Eight inches square.
Eight inches?
Eight inches.
Less than a foot square.
So it's a sighting device.
It's an alignment device.
It's to get you to think connection.
Connection of pyramid to Sirius.
It could be the rock device, too, for sending the soul at the speed of light, which matter can't travel at.
There's a lot of this that we really don't understand yet, but in the probabilities, I like to open up new probabilities in the understanding of things that we're just growing into.
The point is that the alignment appears to be aimed towards Sirius.
That's why I call it the ISIS shaft and the ISIS chamber.
What's behind the door?
You know, Monty Hall, where are you when you need him?
Well, behind that little door, that little portcullis.
I believe, and people as eminent as I.E.S.
Edwards, who was the chief of the Egyptian... What would you call it, Larry?
Keeper of Antiquities of the Egyptian room of the British Museum.
When the Ganton Brink video was shown to him, and he was asked on Channel 4, which is one of the British TV channels, what do you think is behind the door, Dr. Edwards?
In a rare burst of speculation, for someone as conservative as those guys, he said, well, maybe a pharaonic figure, a seated statue of the pharaoh, gazing toward Orion, or Sirius.
Holding an ankh.
We will get back to that in a minute.
So, in 1993, we have this brilliant German engineer, builds a robot, gets into, with the permission of Hawass, That shaft, sends a robot up the shaft, finds a door, finds a crack under it, then asks Hawass, okay, let me put a fiber optics, you know, probe on my camera and look behind the door.
You bet.
And Hawass kicks you out?
Naturally.
No, no.
Hawass led the country during that time, Richard.
Okay.
He was under a 21 felony count by Muhammad Bakr, who was then the Chairman of Antiquities, having replaced one that had just died, Saeed Talfiq.
Felony counts, uh, for what?
Ford, not using the system of when they open up the museums to go inside, they were supposed
to have guards and police escorting them in and the documentation and the paperwork that
was associated with it was skimmed, if at all.
And he left the country for several months without a passport or a visa.
So in other words, he had been not following procedure and in Egypt, with regard to antiquities,
they don't take that lightly.
Well, in this case, the chairman of antiquities launched an investigation into his activity.
Mm-hmm.
Into Alonzo's activity?
Yes.
And it was during this time that Vanterbrink released this information to the world.
Through Rodney Ball?
Right.
Well, it was sort of that, and through Reuters, I think.
Okay.
But the Egyptians immediately silenced the story.
But if you'll go back and look, secret chamber in the bottom of the pyramid.
And then this was something that was up in the Queen's Chamber, so it'll give you a feeling of what Canterbury may know, but has been silenced about telling.
All right, you two.
Hold on.
And folks, we have only just begun.
You have not heard the really incredible part yet.
Stay right where you are.
This is CBC.
This is CBC.
That was a good one.
We'll...
That's what I'm talking about.
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This is the CBC Radio Network.
It sure is.
Good morning.
Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
With him, Larry Hunter.
The information you're about to hear is gonna blow you away.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
It sure is. Good morning. Richard C. Hopeland is my guest.
With him, Larry Hunter.
The information you're about to hear is going to blow you away.
It's nine.
All right, so we've got this tunnel.
We've got a door at the end.
We've got a seemingly impossible puzzle.
An area that no human being can get to.
Zahi Hawass would not allow the laser look-see through this little tiny crack.
Zahi, according to our guest Larry Hunter, was under indictment himself.
Under investigation.
Investigation.
Um, for some, uh, how many felony counts?
There were about 21 different items that Muhammad Bukhar had against him.
This was in the spring of 93?
Right.
And then after those came down, then the Minister of Culture, Farooq Qazni, started to investigate the Chairman of Antiquities, Muhammad Bukhar, for his activities investigating Hawaii.
And was soon removed from office.
And then a new one came in, a Dr. Abdul-Halim Noraldin.
And Hawass was in a better life?
In America.
Just without the passport and the visa.
And then about the time of the August time frame, he was brought back by the American Embassy and put back in his job as the Director of the Pyramid Plateau.
All right.
By the U.S.
Embassy.
This is very important.
The U.S.
intervened and got Awas reinstated in that key position.
This will feed into the story later in the morning in terms of Larry's interesting run-in with the U.S.
Embassy on this latest trip.
So the U.S.
intervened.
HAWAS was put back in place and the practice continued of allowing organizations and people to come in and do research and then suddenly they were booted out and HAWAS would then proceed with the investigation on his own.
But what you're missing is that HAWAS has known about these things for years before.
His attempts to get Gantabrink in there to put ventilation for the pyramids It was in my opinion a front because he installed a very looks like cheap fan and built a very multi-million dollar robot and what was the objective if it was to keep the pyramid cooler today when you go in there that fan seems to have blocked all airflow so hot that when you're in there it's almost like a sauna you sweat profusely
About 100 degrees.
It gets all over the video cameras and you have to take them away from your face because the video is sensitive to water.
Right.
And I personally have experienced the high, high increase in the temperatures in that pyramid, so much so that when you come out, you're soaking wet.
When we were trying to think of someone who could be a representative of Enterprise, this very broad investigation into connections between Egypt, Mars, NASA, And now ultimately Phoenix.
Larry came to mind because of his unique background.
So I think what we need to do is to have Larry tell you what he's been doing in general terms for about 18 years and what other information he has developed separately regarding what is in the pyramid that Hawass couldn't have known about and had been trying to use other mechanisms to get to other than those that were known by other people in Egypt.
Correct.
Larry?
Well, I've been on this for about 18 years.
I originally went to Egypt in 1979 in the summer solstice.
And it was during that time that I was allowed to go down into the subterranean chambers of the Great Pyramid area, which was closed to the public.
And I crawled out to the end of the dead-end passage, about 52 feet back in, of which there is no exit.
You just go out and come back.
But while I was out there, I was hearing a lot of voices and people and couldn't understand
where they were coming from, at least down in the bottom, at the very end of what was
supposed to be solid rock by any books that I had ever read.
Well, I could hear there was a pattern to the noise, that it would get louder and louder
and louder, and then I would hear the coffer in the King's Chamber with a guide.
You know, when you take these tours, he says this is the coffer of the king, and then he hits it with his hand, and you can hear the bell-tone sound of the coffer.
It's a unique signature of that object in the king's room, or, quote, king's room.
So I knew that this room was connected at least through the unknown parts of the pyramid, because that sound was coming directly to me.
And this happened in 1979, and I was at a loss to explain any of this, but I know my experience.
And I was down there for several hours, and in the process of that, I had the watch with phosphorus on it, and I was curious how long I had been down, and I didn't have a light with me.
I was actually in the dark the whole time.
It is that I looked at my watch, and I was totally surprised to find the phosphorus glowing brighter than if I had just put a very bright light on it, and then taken it away.
It was that fresh.
In my experience with phosphorus, when you hit it in light and take it into a dark room, it diminishes.
Sure.
This was quite the opposite.
There were several other things that occurred in there, but that was my first experience with what I had labeled a secret room.
And this room, we can only be described via the experiences of the modern village pyramid workers.
And I want to coin this term because it's the pseudonym that I would like to use to protect all of the people in Egypt that are these modern village pyramid workers from any backlash of them having revealed to me their secrets concerning the subjects that I was very interested in.
Because they're not allowed to talk, but through me, and if I just use the term mollage, or modern village pyramid worker, you can get the feel that even in the time of Pharaoh, he had his village workers that did the work.
They don't get much credit other than they always lived there, and no different today is that there is a village at the base of the pyramid called Nazbat el Saman, Which has just such workers.
Any maintenance that goes on, they're brought in.
Iron work, etc.
All the way from the taxi drivers, the horses, the camels, and any others that may do the business of the pyramid for the modern tourists coming in and or doctors from around the world to do their research.
And they gave you testimony and we don't want to get anybody killed.
Exactly.
I would use the term killed in this sense because Egypt is really, really a very safe country.
I've been going in and out of there for 18 years, and I feel that it really is the safest place on earth.
So I don't want to get any of your listeners, and even you at the outset, whenever you're, I don't know if I can go there, there's nothing that would keep you from going there, and not to be afraid, because Egypt does have a real nice system of police networks that That the tourist is the most protected source for that country, if you know what I mean.
I know what you mean.
However, the gravity of what we're about to tell people of what's going on is going to...
It brings the pressure on the village worker, of which Hawass and his efforts have tried to starve this village,
keep these people from working, and if you really got down in it and we had the time,
I would give you a cute little story of the economics involved with the plateau,
and the amount of money that tourists are charged, and how the people are trying to survive.
And in all amongst this, where we hear the latest stories of the camel people costing so much to clean the plateau, about $35,000 a year for 50 people to clean up the stool of the horses and the camels.
No toilets, Richard, are available to you when you go there on the plateau.
That's what I want to warn you.
I understand they're banning camels in the area now, too.
Yes, but that's in a legal format right now.
And my objective is to put them all back to work running a program that I'm developing now, which is to give them the access to the outer desert regions, of which are very important to the whole way of this.
It's about an eight mile by eight mile by six and a half mile region, which will encompass the whole Orion constellation.
All right, gentlemen, look, we've got to get to it.
Let's tell them what's happening.
Well, in 1996, In the fall of 96, you and I and our listening audience became aware that there were potential links between the NASA inquiry I have been conducting, relating to the Moon and Mars, and the fact that the emblem, the central emblem of the Apollo program, is a central figure
The giant of the Egyptian cosmology, i.e.
Osiris, i.e.
Orion, i.e.
Apollo.
And the Apollo patch itself, the insignia on that patch was Orion.
Right.
Been down this road, Richard.
Let's get to it.
Furthermore, a key Egyptian, a gentleman named Farouk El-Baz, turned out to not only have played a key role in the NASA Apollo program, But then went back to Egypt and served as a science advisor to then President... Anwar Sadat.
Anwar Sadat.
Right.
And his brother now is some high minister on the... He's the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs directly to the President of Egypt.
Hosni Mubarak.
Right.
So the Elbaz family is extremely well connected.
And as you know, we discovered that Elbaz himself, when he came to the United States from Egypt by way of Germany, ...was directed to be hired by none other than the brother of Richard Milhouse Nixon by NASA to pick out the Apollo landing sites.
So there's an extraordinary linkage, currently mysterious, between NASA, the Moon, Mars, and ancient Egypt.
Indeed.
So we used our computer, we used this extraordinary program, Redshift, which you now have, Art.
Yes.
And we laid out a projection of when, maybe, someone would go beyond Gentenbrink's door and attempt to enter that so-called secret chamber, the ISIS chamber that I am projecting is behind the door.
And that room is two meters by a meter and a half, Richard?
Well, that's according to information that you developed independently.
Right.
And we will get to that in a second, all right?
So in the fall of 96, I'm sitting literally in Ken Johnson's driveway at 3 o'clock in the morning.
In, I believe, September.
And I'm using this portable laptop, and I'm running the calculations for when they, whoever they are, Hawass, Elbaz, and company, would probably attempt to go through that door with an optical probe.
And I ran several dates, and the date that I picked, and I came on your... Yes, correct.
There were two other dates that I did not announce, where the stellar configuration matched exactly this cartography, which would also have been propitious in the mythology.
Those I did not reveal.
One was November 8th, and there was a third one, which I'm not going to talk about for a second here.
I found Larry, a willing observer, we put him on an airplane, I sent him as part of the Enterprise mission to go and as part of his own research, take some time out and hang out and talk with his colleagues and his sources and his contacts, take video and just watch and see what happened on December 5th.
And this is what he found.
Larry?
Alright, well, I was talking to some of the security people and this is around the 3rd of December.
Leading up to this activity that Richard just referred to, and I found out that on October, about two months ago as I was put by the security, that Farouk Elbaz and a couple of English-speaking people with a suitcase came into the pyramid early in the morning and closed the Queen Chamber for three and a half hours.
And then there was reports of a guard that's no longer there because Dr. Hawass had him removed and in that process he retired after I guess about 50 years of working with him.
And his retirement salary of 150 Egyptian pounds, which is about $150, was put to condition that if he ever talked, that he would lose this.
And even the revealing of this is a lot of information that they can track right back to him.
But I can tell you that if anything happens to that guard by what we're doing now, that if he loses a $50 a month pension, that we can well take care of him for what he's done as far as trusting us to take care of him.
Alright.
Alright, so that's something that if the listeners are listening that we promise to take care of the people that are damaged through the process of this because I have had others that have helped me that have lost their jobs and I have tried to financially give them support in the time that this is all affecting them directly in that village.
Okay, what information did he reveal that would cause him to lose his retirement?
Well, his was that he actually saw the individuals in there on that day.
And then the things that he saw were that these people opened up a suitcase and took out two objects that were square rectangular objects that look like rocks that could have been the computer for one side and the robot for the other because we don't know other than he was escorted out at that moment.
So whatever they did inside, no one knows, or we can't find anyone there, but we can peg that they were there, and the guard that was there watching them, because he's the one that opened the door to let them go in, was removed from the site of what they were doing, of which really violated the guard being present rule that's supposed to be there.
Now this is what's critical, alright?
Again, with the cooperation of Zahi.
That's right.
Now Larry comes back.
How long were you there?
10 days?
For the December trip?
Yeah.
Approximately that time.
Recalling that Zahi was restored by American authorities.
That was back in 93.
Yeah.
In the fall of 93.
So in other words, in a way, he's our guy.
From that point.
So Larry comes back and he says, sorry Dick, no cigar.
Nothing unusual happened on December 5th.
It was not a zip.
It was October 20th.
It was October 20th.
Between 9.30 and noon.
All right?
So I didn't... I had never told Larry that the... I had two other dates.
The other date, and I again looked at the computer tonight just to refresh my memory, the dates and the times that this guard reported correspond exactly to the stellar cartography for the opening of that chamber, or looking into it, in October.
October 20th, between 9.30 and noon, Cairo time.
Richard, a piece that intrigues me is that they already know what's on the other side.
The activity, to me, of Mr. Elbaz seems that he was either activating Tonal or doing something in the way that was just not to fulfill Gantabrake because To me, Hawat already knew of the room down in the bottom and how it goes up over 250 feet.
Okay.
I had already seen on the other side, but this was a game that to me is being played by Hawat to milk the public and all these little things to get the hype up, but let them only see a little bit and then keep going and going and going into it.
All right, let me have you pause there.
When Larry came back and reported this to me, my first question, as it would have been yours, Art, is, Well, did you get the guard on tape?
And Larry said... No.
Or the policemen either.
Yes, but I got their stories and I cross referenced it with other people that are following this
from the Egyptian side.
So I had what I felt was enough information to give to Richard because he couldn't get
the video of the little room.
I used the modern village pyramid workers eyes to tell me what was in there.
And I think Richard on one of your broadcast there on the Art Bell show referred to the
little black statue with the Ankh looking up through the hole out into the universe.
And then we both discovered about the same time that Edwards had described the same thing
unbeknownst to me.
And I found that ironic.
And since then, I have keyed backwards to the approximate time that even before when I discovered this room, that the Egyptian authorities were already aware of it.
Alright, gentlemen, we've got a pause right there.
When we come back, uh, the big news.
Uh, this has been leading up to what we're about to tell you is going on Inside the pyramid with nobody's knowledge has secretly been going on for some time.
So brace yourself.
I promise you that coming up in this next half hour because I realize we'll lose many of you at the end of this half hour.
So it's all coming together.
Stay right where you are.
This is CBC.
make this way. I can't live a lie. I can't live a lie without your love.
Hartbell is taking calls on the wildcard line.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am, and we're going to get right down to it in a moment, folks.
I promise, if I have to ring next, we're going to get down to it.
Because I realize we've got just about a half hour here, and that's it, before some of you will lose this.
4-6-2-7.
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4-6-2-7. That's 1-800-557-4627. You've got nothing to lose but the fact.
Alright, now back to Richard Hoagland and Larry Hunter.
Larry's in L.A., Richard is in or near Manhattan.
And, gentlemen, we have got to get to it.
That's it.
We've got to get to it now.
Okay.
As you know, I have been involved in deep discussions with the Shore Expedition for the last couple of years.
I know.
The Shore Expedition connected A.R.E., given permission by HAWAS to do some things, not do other things, And there have been several trips by Shore and company, geophysicists, filmmakers, and a lot of other people who've gone over and who have done something.
And the rest of us have been sitting here kind of cooling our heels wondering when we would ever see what they got to do.
Right.
The tune on several million dollars.
Yeah, Shore has put a lot of money in.
Several million dollars.
I've had meetings with Dr. Shore.
I've had meetings with some of the key people in the Shore expedition.
In fact, at one point, I was actually given an invitation to come And we had a very interesting discussion with Graham Hancock and Robert Vaughn that night on your show.
That's right.
And I was going to even come with you, I recall.
That's right.
Well, nothing seems to be making progress.
And this has gone on for months, after months, after months.
And there's been stall.
There's been factually...
Shor has fed up.
He cancelled a five-year digging program in Egypt because of this situation.
Totally cancelled it.
Walked out and said, I don't want anything else to do with Egypt.
So it's another case of Zahi doing what Zahi has done for years.
Yep.
Well, what happened in the last couple of months, Art, as you well know, because I included you in on the conversation from the beginning, is that a member of the shore expedition came to me, called me up, and said, and I'm going to use paraphrasing now, I basically am willing to turn state's evidence.
I am so fed up with this insanity that Hawass is pulling, with the strangeness that's going on in Egypt, in the Antiquities Council, and at various other levels, and the stall tactic, that I am willing to provide, under certain conditions, all the material and data and film and video from the shore expedition, provided you will arrange for a proper venue Where all of the independent investigators get a chance to use this to advance the cause of openness and to break the wall of secrecy, which Hawass has been masterminding for a long time.
All right.
And what did we suspect was going on?
Well, we suspected that Hawass was part of this careful delay delay because something mysterious was going on that he was orchestrating, probably to culminate in the midsummer of this year.
Tell them what we suspected.
Well, we suspected that he was going to open the chamber in the pyramid, the ISIS chamber.
Now, Larry believes from other sources that he already knows it exists, that he had previous access and had been cut off from that access.
Is that correct?
Very good.
They put bars up over the entry into the secret room of which has been visited by the modern village pyramid workers for their whole lives.
It's sort of the sacred of the village.
All right, but we had information.
I'm going to do this if you're not Richard.
Well, one of the pieces of information was there was video.
And in tracking through with this source, when the video was shot, what the video was shot of, it became apparent to me that the shore people themselves had filmed and not realized they had filmed the digging in the late, late fall of 1996 of a shaft or a tunnel Attempting to reach this so-called ISIS chamber from above.
In other words, coming from digging a tunnel from the King's Chamber... Well, above the King's Chamber.
Above the King's Chamber, um, all the way down to meet up with, uh, with this secret room way down below.
Well, it, it was, alright, if you actually do the geometry, it would be a horizontal shaft kind of extending south out toward the southern horizon.
But it didn't do that.
No, initially it didn't do that.
The digging went east and west.
It went east and west, but you could branch off from east and west to try to find where you would enter that room.
So we suspected they were secretly digging, but we couldn't go public with this because the evidence was not conclusive.
It was not conclusive.
Now, it's very important to get the time sequence.
These people, and again, I'm keeping these sources quiet tonight because I don't want to put them on bridges.
Me too.
They were up there in April of 96.
With film cameras.
As part of Shore's Expedition.
Right.
And reported nothing unusual in the chamber just above the King's Chamber.
Right.
In November of 96, when they were up there, they reported, and they actually recorded certain tests, certain sound tests, that there was a long tunnel, about 60 feet long, that had been dug parallel to the south wall of the Davison Chamber.
Which fronts on that secret room about 100 feet beyond if our calculations are correct.
And it's what's below that passage that I have that when Richard's doing his, I have mine.
And when Richard's feeding me information, I'm seeing things that I haven't revealed by the modern workers as to what he's really up to.
OK, so the sequence is important because remember, according to Larry's guard, his source, in December of 96, Elbaz and company
went in on October 20th.
And the shore people reported that the digging didn't start until November, a few days later.
So that's what got me very excited and I've been attempting to get more of this video
to verify it.
I've now got some of it.
I've actually been provided some of the shore video, and yes, there is something going on on this existing video.
There were... I'm about to power cables running out.
Well, I'm about to.
Well, please go ahead, Richard.
In February, when the shore people were there again, my source reported that a new wrinkle had been added.
You can only get to this chamber above the King's Chamber by a very rickety ladder, a very long ladder that had been built.
Climb up at the end of the Grand Gallery.
And there is a tunnel up there that was dug in what?
The 1600s, Larry?
By Davidson himself?
That's why it's called the Davidson Chamber.
It's a hole.
What our sure source reported was that there was a very thick power cable that had been added running from the Grand Gallery up into this tunnel and disappearing in the direction over the King's Chamber and it was hot.
So they were using high current devices.
They were digging.
They were digging.
Well, that's an inference.
They may have been digging.
It's more than an inference.
A light doesn't heat up a cable.
No, no.
It had to be something pretty massive and draining a lot of power.
So at this point, I called Larry and I said, when is your next scheduled trip for Egypt?
And he said, oh, next week.
And I said, fine.
Get thee to an airplane.
And we proceeded to make an arrangement for videos and film cameras and all that.
He got on a plane.
You arrived, what was it, 10 days ago?
I arrived on the 16th at about 4.30 their time.
Which is the night before I did the show last week where we talked about NASA and Egypt and Phoenix.
Okay.
And this is what Larry saw.
All right.
What we did, if... I'll just try and give you a chronology here, Art.
As quick as you can, Larry.
All right.
Right now I've got a fax coming to you or an email with three or more pictures of what I'm talking about right now.
My person that was going to help me in this, because I'm so well known over there, we had to use a third person or a second person to go in and be my eyes, so to speak, but under my direction.
Well, when he first went in on the 17th, he saw two large bags sitting on the Grand Gallery steps, directly below the hole of the Davidson entrance above.
He saw the two ladders of which one is relatively long and the other one extends it to make it enough distance to get to the hole.
And then he saw the power cords going up and he also saw and noticed that the video camera which is security for the pyramid was facing the wall.
He took one piece of the rock out of the bag of which the top one had also two plastic bottles for bottled water which were empty.
The photograph that I'm sending you will show you those bags sitting there on the 17th of June.
One day after we arrived, going up through just to get a case of the place.
And then on the next day, we went back and took more pictures and got more samples from the bags that were there.
These are pristine, looks to me to be Turin limestone rocks with no dirt around them or anything like that.
So then, from that evidence, I called Richard immediately and informed him of the discoveries that we were encountering.
In other words, you have proof.
They're rocks, yeah.
I've got one here in L.A.
And these are the rocks that they would have somehow disgorged from their position as they dig toward this chamber secretly.
Right.
But now the part that I was discussing with Richard is that these rocks may be the last opening before they go in.
So in other words, they may be just about to go in.
Or these are the rocks of the opening.
So this digging, this secret digging by Zahi and company has been going on for how long?
Well, since November of 96 to June of 97.
And we just finally got the proof we need.
Now, there's more.
There's more.
Alright, so after I had got these photographs and then I got to Richard,
part of the effort was to get me up there or my persons up there to video it so that we had a cooperating evidence to
go along with what Richard already had.
But this would prove to be more difficult than you can imagine.
Even with all my sources and the arrangements of things that I could have done, It seemed to just shut down all around us.
I understand you were followed in Egypt, is that correct?
Well, yeah, by everybody, but that doesn't bother me.
You know, I mean, I prefer they know where I am and what I'm doing.
Talk about the American Embassy.
Yeah, please.
Well, the American Embassy had someone very close on the day that I was supposed to get the information that either I could get in or I could not to do this video.
And he is a fixture now in the village selling or buying horses from certain people and I'm not sure what his play in it is but he's pretty knowledgeable to the activities of rooms because the person that he's living with or is associated with is getting suits for his children, supplying them with beer and things like this.
All right, I don't understand that.
Somebody from the American Embassy is spreading money around, $6,000 per horse, and then giving some of them beer.
Because you're not really supposed to be able to get one case of Heineken from the embassy or any of the methods.
But he gets lots of beer and has no problem with that.
So much so that it caused a big fight in the village between the two brothers.
And this fight It was on the day that I was supposed to get my information that I would either go or not.
Yes.
And in that process, I was told, no, you can't go.
All right.
It's just too hot.
The person that was going to allow all this activity of getting the ladder up for me was put down and he couldn't do it.
And then the only way that ladder can get up is by the signature of Zahi Hawass.
Right.
Not Dr. Ali Hassan or anyone else.
Only Dr. Hawass.
So this is a Hawass secret project in the pyramid, digging a secret tunnel, which is illegal, to somewhere.
And while Larry is trying to get permission, he makes himself unavailable to me, Richard, so that we cannot get his signature.
He leaves and is in Germany until the day I leave, he comes back.
He's there the day I left, the day he came back.
All right, Zahi is about to be greeted today.
Yes, by the tourist police, of which I eventually went to and gave them the photograph of these rocks.
So you gave them the proof that Zahi was digging illegally?
Well, I didn't say... Art, be careful here.
This is alleged in the way.
All I can say is that Huaca's signature is the only one that will allow that ladder to go up.
Your inferences can go any way they want.
Alright, but Richard, you said earlier that Zahi is going to be greeted by the police.
Larry took this... I'll lead into that, Art, if you'll let me get this sequence down, because you're cramming ten days of... I understand that, but we have ten minutes.
Ten minutes, alright.
This morning, before I left Egypt, or the evening before, I had already been to the police, and I had already informed them of this.
I had tried to get to Dr. Ali Hassan and have meetings with him, but he was not available, not available after repeated calls.
I informed his secretary that I would go to the newspapers in Egypt and give them the evidence and I would let them go to him and ask the question.
Right.
So then I also, at that time, before I went to the newspapers, I informed the general that I was going to go to the newspapers.
He said, don't do that yet.
But when I couldn't get to Dr. Ali Hassan, who also left very shortly thereafter, Egypt,
not available to be gotten so that I could get permission from him to be the meditation
group, which is sort of the business, at a tune of somewhere in a thousand and above,
for his signature to do that, that was my second option to get the latter up.
He wasn't available.
So I turned all this evidence over to the police and to the newspapers, and knowing
that I was leaving, I went to the general as the last person and informed him that his
investigation should go pretty quick, because if he doesn't...
What general?
Well, his name is General Mohammed Eshaik.
He's the tourist of 5 Adelaide Street General for the Giza Plateau.
So you turned the evidence over to him?
Right.
And he told him that the American press and your show and the web was going to carry this evidence and make it public To ensure that an investigation into what is going on proceeds regardless now.
Because I told him in his terms, I've lit a fire behind your rear end to keep you motivated.
And you go through and you do your job and you get to the bottom of this.
And if you don't, the press is going to want to know why.
And if you're going to silence the Egyptian press, then I'll fax you, Art Bell, three photographs at least of those rocks, that ladder, those power cords, that video, Pointing against the wall and all the activity.
There's another piece in this that we didn't get to, but one of the sources questioned the new upcoming Director of the Plateau, a guy named Fabri, about what was going on.
In case he didn't know of the illegal activity, we felt that it was imperative that he know.
So we informed him and he came back with us because somebody tried to say they were doing restoration in there and that wasn't true because I went down to the Sphinx and got the chips and compared them to the rocks and they're totally different.
So it is your opinion that they are just short of breaking through into the chamber?
If not, those rocks are the breaking through into the chamber.
So they may even be already through?
What's the debris of those rocks possibly could be?
Larry, how many pounds of these samples did you bring back?
One rock was eight pounds in its own right.
A huge block of this stone.
The rest were small little, where they would bust up, bust up, bust up.
All right, I need to tell everybody that we have been desperately trying to get the three photographs just mentioned.
They're being faxed to you now.
Well, not faxed.
No, they're being emailed to Keith Rowland, who will get them up on the website.
So I want to tell everybody, before we lose some of the affiliates here at the top of the hour, to be checking my website because these The photographs are going to be there.
The ones you just heard described showing evidence of illegal digging.
Serious illegal.
We don't know if it's illegal.
They can have permission and it's all secret.
So be careful how we say illegal.
Secret digging?
I don't know.
I just don't want to say illegal.
You want to say secret?
Is it safe to say secret digging?
Well, it's certainly not been advertised.
You're denying that they're doing it.
Even the guy, Sabri, that I'm referring to.
Well, then I think the word secret works.
He's claiming that they're just cleaning the chambers up above.
Of eight-pound rocks?
Exactly, of which was supposed to have been done seven years ago.
Before we lose the affiliates, there's a key thing here.
The Assistant Managing Editor of the Al-Waqf newspaper.
Go ahead and say it.
Mohammed Sadri of Al-Waqf newspaper, which is one of the key Cairo newspapers, and the one to follow Hawass for a lot of years over the sabotage against the Sphinx that I reported years ago that was broken by the people of Hawass.
And because of the powerful, uh, foreplays of the Minister of Culture and several others, that that whole thing was suppressed, and the truth ever be known will prove that the Antiquities officials also broke the shoulder of the Sphinx to remove the only good man in Antiquities, the Dr. Ahmed Qadri.
Anyway, you're this man.
This Assistant Managing Editor is a longtime friend of Larry Hunter.
Larry left a set of this evidence with Muhammad.
I placed a call to his home phone this morning, Art.
And what I'm going to attempt to do is to arrange an interview between you and this editor of this key Cairo newspaper who has now launched his own investigation into this secret tunneling.
At any rate, um, Azahi is going to be confronted by this general.
This morning.
This morning.
With one guy named, uh... Oh, the names are... I'm a little tired here right now.
They're probably plus about 8 or 9 hours, so that could actually be occurring nearly as we speak.
Or have already occurred, because when I left there, it was at about 10 o'clock that I talked to the General, went directly to the airport, and got on a plane for 10 hours to New York, and then New York to L.A.
And then in that time frame, they would have woken up and gone and done their investigation into what we were reporting to them.
But on the afternoon of the 25th, we sent three people up there again, and the rocks had been removed.
But not before, like I say, we had evidences of those rocks out of those bags and in our hands, and we had them photographed, copies up to the police and to the press, and then discovering that they had indeed been removed on the 25th.
Well, one thing's for damn sure, they cannot remove the tunnel if it has been dug.
No, they can't.
And the power cord was described by Dr. Sabri that this was put up there for Dr. Hawass to read
some hieroglyphics of which there are none.
I tried to say earlier, I know a little bit about that.
And what was the editor's response Larry when he saw the power cord?
This power cord is for equipment, heavy equipment.
Yeah, yeah, and if it's hot, trust me, there is no light that would heat up a great big thick
220 or 440 power cord.
No way.
Well, we've got the MacGuffin.
Gentlemen, we housed them by the shore.
We have the white rock of this stone that is not what was the seven year ago cleaning out stones because they had yellow sand on them.
All right, look, we will be back in a moment, but I want to tell my audience, both of you stand by.
There you have it.
Secret digging.
We'll use the word secret digging until we see whether any charges are filed over all of this.
Zahi Hawass about to be confronted by a general and by the police.
And they're digging or they may already be into that chamber.
That's the news that we were waiting to break.
The pictures, the photographs should be up on the website shortly.
I'll check into it and we'll be back in a moment.
I'm Art Bell.
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It is, and we'll get back to my guests Larry Hunter and Richard Hoagland in a moment.
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Alright, back now to my guests.
And by now you know what's going on.
Larry Hunter and of course Richard C. Hoagland.
Gentlemen, welcome back.
Actually, we still really do maintain the great majority of our affiliates.
uh... at this hour i'd forgotten we shifted the whole program in our earlier
i'm not i'm not even used to it myself yet uh... so we have the majority of the audience with this i
think there are pieces we need to fill it all right we'll fill them in a
second i want to inform the audience is going to be up on the website
looking like crazy for these photographs
that it's going to be a couple hours at minimum uh... and even then we may not get them up there uh...
There's going to be a FedEx delivery to me, and I will personally scan the photographs, and we'll have that underway.
A FedEx delivery to me, and I will scan them and get them to Keith.
So we'll have multiple sources.
You understand that this all basically blew up.
I didn't exactly want to do this this way.
Me either.
Well, thank you, Larry.
When Larry arrived back, literally yesterday afternoon, He called me, he literally hit the house dead tired after a 10 hour flight, mosquito bitten and whatever, walked in the door and called me and said, I'm back.
And then he told me what he had done with the general, with the police, with his editor friend of this major Cairo newspaper.
And I knew that it was going to hit the fan this morning.
And so we had to get it on the air before.
Exactly.
So I told Larry, I said, look, you need to get some rest.
He said, I want to go to the steam room.
I want to, you know, kind of decompress.
There was no way I could, at that time, to get him to scan these to any computer.
So it was late last night, about two hours before airtime, when I could finally reach him, when he regained consciousness.
And then I said, look, go and find a Kinko's, which are supposed to be open all night.
And I gave him Keith's numbers and I gave him instruction for how to do it.
And Larry drove all over Los Angeles and found that no Kinko's were open.
And so he frantically went home, woke his neighbor up, who's a graphic designer who has a computer and a server and all that.
And for some reason her computer has been pitching conniption fits.
Right, so she had to reload software, she had to do all kinds of things, and then when she finally got the photographs, she sent them to the wrong address.
Then I called her back again, and she said, unfortunately, her access to the internet just dropped and won't be up for a couple of hours.
So, with all of that trouble, Uh, maybe it's jinxed.
No, no, it's just demonstrating that we're not going to stop until we get it, and no matter if the websites are down, or whatever.
Oh, look, anyway, you will send me, we've arranged, I gave you my personal address, and you're going to FedEx, uh, the pictures, in fact, even sending me a rock.
Um, and I'm going to scan those photographs and get them up.
Richard will also receive them.
So if, if we don't have the photographs, the proof, up within hours, we'll have it up within a day.
Yep.
Now, let's fill in some of the interstitial glue here.
This is a circumstantial case.
It is built on independent observers, both from the Shore Expedition and our own representative in Larry and his really magnificent effort.
One of the things that Larry was able to do, in addition to the photographs of the rocks, of the power cable, of the ladder, Right.
Of course.
signatures of the surveillance TV camera turned to the wall.
Right.
Of course, there's a big no-no.
Of course.
He was able to go and get the guard on tape.
Larry?
From October 20th.
All right.
From the time that Farouk was there, Farouk Al-Bas.
So in other words, you got the interview this time that you were unable to get last time.
Well, the last time I really didn't think I needed it, but Richard seemed to think I...
See, I'm not a reporter in any sense, so I'm not trained in that level.
What Richard was saying is something that I didn't know.
Well, sure.
In other words, you thought it would be okay to come back and tell Richard what the guard had said.
Right.
Or that he was, that references to that he was there, not that I ever talked to him.
And Richard said, no, we've really got to have something concrete before we can go public.
I understand that.
Right.
That was two of the new items that he put on this agenda that I had my own research going on and I'm doing other things that also at a later time, If we have the time, I'd like to share with you, Art, and your listeners, the research that I've been doing over about an 18-year period.
Okay, we will get to that.
Let me ask you this.
The confrontation that will occur, or is occurring this morning, between the General of the Police and Zahi Hawass, if it turns out that Zahi has been doing this without legitimate authority, what will happen?
Well, it depends on... Well, now, because you have allowed us to move this into a really intense situation, if that policeman didn't want to really investigate, he now would have the pressure of the Egyptian newspapers.
And the Egyptian newspapers wanted to move slow because they don't really see Dr. Hawass as the only one that's masterminding all this.
They really want to get to the big story.
Neither do I. I think HAWAS is part of a larger picture.
And you think HAWAS is connected to our country and that our country has been using HAWAS to obtain material that's been driving the NASA agenda?
Remember, we have gotten this pattern going back 30 or 40 years.
30 or 40 years we find a stunning Egyptian pattern in a NASA space program where it should not exist.
Well, one of my sources informed me that of the items that were in the room that HAWAS seems to always say is not there.
Oh, wait a minute.
Back up, Larry.
All right.
You're talking about your sources that claim that HAWAS has already been in this room.
Absolutely.
And I've got guards that have seen that, and I can give you background detail before you want to go on air with it.
Well, how would he have gone If he couldn't go off the tunnel and he had not yet dug the long tunnel that we have revealed tonight.
Off the grotto on the descending passage is the entrance that has been used for years.
Right?
And they have just recently installed iron bars over that to keep everyone out.
Then what's the point of digging the long tunnel?
Well, I don't think you want to go into that on this show because there are some highly confidential parts to this that It should allow the Egyptians to get to the bottom of it before that's revealed to the world.
No, you're wrong.
I do want to go into it.
Well, let's just say this.
I know you may want to, but I've got a lot on the line.
It's my job to ask.
Let me see if I can bridge the gap here and not reveal sources.
Larry, let me see if I can bridge the gap here and not reveal sources.
From Larry's contacts, it is clear to me if those contacts are truthful and can be believed
and with 18 years of developing relationships, there is a certain modicum of trust that we
have to understand that is going on here.
Of course.
To protect this village at all costs, because they are the eyes and ears that feed us any and everything of the illegal activities of those individuals who have private agendas.
From these modern pyramid workers, we'll use this euphemism.
Larry has been told that for a long time, Dr. Hawass and certain colleagues have had access through the lower part of the pyramid into this ultra-secret room or complex of rooms.
We're not quite sure.
I'm not quite sure how much volume there is in this room.
Let me shed some light.
There's a lot more... Let me finish my limbing out and then you can fill in the details.
All right.
Recently, for some reason, his access through his normal tunnel or door Has been closed off with a steel gate.
No lock, just bars.
Bars?
Bars.
Just steel bars.
Which means, politically, somebody said no.
That's the way I interpret it.
So it looks as if he started a secret project up top.
To get to it anyway.
To get to it anyway, see?
I've got you.
Of which the room is over 250 feet from ground to ceiling and he's coming in on the upper level.
Now, through the Davidson Chambers.
God, what could be driving a loss that hard to get to it and risk everything?
All right.
Larry?
You have to talk about the artifacts ostensibly removed.
Looted might be an interesting term.
Over 203 items were taken out by my sources.
Oh my God.
And provided, some of them were provided, and one... JPL.
At the, at the tuned, about what, $10 million?
Wait a minute, Larry.
Hold it, hold it.
Larry, did you say JPL?
Yes, he did.
Are one of them provided to JPL?
For $10 million.
What?
This is not small.
And I was told, be careful, these people will kill you.
Well, I was asking about that very thing earlier, and you were giving me reassurances.
No, no, no, no, no.
But you got to remember, and if you'll just let me say it, they did try to do that in Frankfurt, Germany, but Egyptian special forces stopped them from doing it.
All right.
And I'm not worried because if God wants me dead, Richard, or Art, I'd be dead.
I'm not afraid of any man in that regard.
When I'm in doing what I'm doing, I feel totally protected by a lot... People I don't even know, know me and watch me.
I am well protected.
I have no fear of any of this.
And even when they're trying it behind me, I sense it and feel it, I still go forward.
It doesn't bother me.
And we have about 18 million people watching us right now, so... Well, they may be watching me, but they're listening to you.
The important thing is, the important thing here is there appears to be a history, a long history, of duplicity regarding the nature of the pyramid and what it contains and its uses and an intense interest on the part of NASA, a US-based agency, in an ancient, dusty mausoleum for reasons that are not fathomable by current history.
How do we document $10 million changing hands?
Well, we can't.
But we can document a current tunnel.
How do we know it?
Well, let's say that if we're putting it up on your show, that it is a worldwide, in a sense, broadcast, because you're carried pretty far.
Oh, yes.
And that everybody listening will be listening, and then these things will be discussed on a big-time level throughout the archaeological, Orthodox, or Egyptologists, if you will, in Egypt as we're speaking.
Because I know the children in Egypt have access to web and I've watched them call up Richard's website.
I've watched them call up Farouk Elbaz's resume out of the Boston University to see his activity and give me color laser prints.
So they have the technology over there and what we're doing, even though it won't come out in the papers or in some other method, this is a source that will guarantee that people of Egypt under www.com can read it and see it.
for themselves and just in that information and effort alone they will have a groundswell
of what is going on because these monuments not only belong to the people of Egypt they belong to
the world they're not the personal faults of any Egyptologist that they can do business with with
whoever for whatever reason these things need to be put in the day the light of day and and
under the scrutiny of humanity do you know anything uh larry about the nature of these
you said a couple you know hundreds of things removed 203 203.
203.
Do you know anything of the nature of these things?
Enough that they got caught, and they were told by their Egyptian equivalent of our CIA to put them all back, and I'm not sure that all items have made it back.
Well, what I mean is, can you tell me anything, have you received any descriptions of these items?
No.
Other than, I always ask the question, if it's pharaonic art, what would JPL be interested in?
Well, I'm sure that causes a twitch in Richard's eye when he hears it.
And a raised eyebrow, at the very least.
Now, I've done the broadcast a couple of years, or last year or so, on public television, of which it went bicycling, and I have no idea who ever saw it.
It was a program called Things You Should Know, and I discussed a lot of this on that program, but I know that the majority of, maybe a few people have ever seen it, but I have copies of both of those TV tapings.
It was two half-hour shows that I did to cover The Secret Room and Concept and then the area of my research.
The key thing here is that up until this night on your program, Art, this was hearsay.
This is sources that cannot stand in front of a TV camera because pretty nasty things might happen.
And a reliable, you know, independent Indiana Jones type archaeologist who can only come on media and discuss what he's been told, but he can't reveal the sources.
So it basically is a stalemate.
But tonight we have actual evidence.
of secret tunneling by a key director general of the of the you know Giza Plateau. Well at least
his signature is the only one that can put the ladder up there. That much has been described.
So in other words you're really saying this could not have occurred,
simply could not have occurred, without Zahi's approval.
It is his signature that puts that ladder up.
Nobody else, not Dr. Ali Hassan, no one else can put that ladder up without Dr. Hawassi's signature.
What kind of reaction did you get when you went to the General?
We'll go, we'll take this policeman that was standing right beside me.
And we will go and get an archaeologist that's not from the offices of Hawass, but one of his own men, and that they would go up there and investigate it.
And then they would confront Hawass with this.
And then when I went back the following day, and in the evening as I was leaving, he demonstrated to me by just lifting one piece of paper, that that photograph was on the top of his activity level.
A priority, on top.
One piece of paper covering it.
Were you concerned about getting out of Egypt with what you were carrying?
No, I'm never afraid, you know, on those levels.
This is something that you've got to remember.
I moved fearless.
I'm not afraid.
My only thing was that I couldn't catch the flight on Saturday because it was overbooked already.
And I had some activity for the weekend that I had planned before I even went.
But I had told Richard that I would be willing to stay because this general, whenever I was talking with him, I told him that I had the Hi8 system and that I would be happy to accompany him to go up there and I would video whatever evidence was there and then make a copy for him or give him the original and make a copy for me.
And he agreed that that was all acceptable to him.
Richard, how do you think the shore expedition or the shore people are going to react to this news?
Well, I think if it opens the system, if the honest part of the Egyptian government, which of course is overwhelmingly in the majority, finally understands why the stonewalling has been taking place, that Dr. Shore and his millions of dollars will ultimately have been put to good use, because if we hadn't had access to that independent evidence, and with you giving me the heads up to get Larry over there, to get this kind of corroboration, None of this conversation will be occurring tonight.
It would still be in my notes because over the last... Well, ever since I exposed the sabotage against the Sphinx and almost had Hawass put in jail for this, but through a long story, Art, in the future for the listeners, that if you ever want to bring me back and go slow and just develop this meticulous 18-year effort, you'll find some amazing things.
All right, Larry.
Larry and Richard, hold on.
We'll be back to you in a moment.
Folks, uh, minus some of the details, you've got the story.
They've been digging and digging and digging and nobody knew about it until now.
Well I may be too old to get ready to realize what I have found.
I have something on that tail over my head.
Oh, clear to me now.
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Now, here again, Art Bell.
Top of the morning, everybody.
I am Art Bell.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
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Now, here again, Art Bell.
Top of the morning everybody, I am Art Bell.
And in a moment we'll get back to our guests.
And we'll sort of wrap this up.
And we'll kind of put it in perspective so you understand the significance of what you're hearing.
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All right.
Just a side note, this in from Reuters, and Richard will no doubt find this interesting, an unmanned progress A cargo craft carrying vital repair supplies to the damaged Mir space station is going to be launched on July 4th, or at the latest July 5th, but in all probability, July 4th.
They just announced.
So, interesting day, Richard.
Kind of, yes.
Kind of a confluence.
I guess to put this all in perspective, we need to understand that the Egyptians are their own masters, or they're supposed to be.
They have the pyramids, it is on their land, in their country, they are a sovereign nation.
There are people who have the view that what's in the pyramids, or we think may be in them, belongs to the wider world.
But if there is a group with a secret deal, digging secret tunnels, And transferring things to NASA or to JPL or to anybody else, it needs to be exposed and it's not a trivial story.
And that's what we're working on here.
A lot of people will say, well, big deal, Egyptians digging in the pyramids, so what?
Well, the so what here, of course, is it drives to the heart of what is the pyramid?
What is Giza?
What is the significance for the planet?
Or humankind.
Yes.
Or a connection to an extraordinary high-tech program to explore space.
This is beginning to really round out the theory, the model, that the Giza Plateau is one set of artifacts that are in fact the relics of a former high-tech epic of civilization, human civilization, Perhaps twelve, five, thirteen thousand years old.
If I could throw in, I would say several million.
Well, maybe in recurring cycles, and that's a long discussion, Larry, that we need to reserve for another program.
Right.
The point is that the model that we have been putting forward now, ever since we discovered this arcane and mysterious connection between NASA and this ancient Egyptian cosmology, and a key linchpin, a man, picked by President Nixon to literally To design the landing sites, to pick the landing sites on the moon for the Apollo astronauts, who then went on to become a very high-ranking official in the Egyptian government under Sadat.
That connection has to be explored.
Let me give you a theory on that, Richard.
Maybe some of those items that you and your Clementine programs that you were going around the country is that you were theorizing that objects were brought back.
Is it possible that those objects are what Farouk took into the Queen's room?
I would more likely think that the guard is not familiar with modern telecommunications equipment, and in fact what was in that aluminum suitcase was, what you said, a computer and a video robot.
Or, theorize even more, maybe the items that were brought for the moon, because somehow they were taken from here and stored there until such time as they could be brought back.
That raises another important possibility.
You know, I don't mind theorizing on that.
No, no, no, I think you're onto something here.
If there is All right, let me back up.
In the Egyptian text, Art, there is a clear connection between the Giza Plateau and the moon.
Between the keeper of the pyramids, Thoth, who was a moon god, all right?
There are all kinds of texts relating that complex of pyramids to the moon itself.
We know now that there are artifacts on the moon, at least from our investigation we know.
We know that we went to the moon according to a certain ancient Egyptian plan.
Yes.
It's conceivable that John Kennedy's vision, part of a Masonic tradition, impelled forward a space agency in secret designs to go and retrieve things that were specifically forecast would be found at certain places.
In archives that were buried thousands of years ago under the Giza Plateau or in the pyramid itself.
Well, I hear the argument, Richard, that what is at Giza belongs to the world.
I don't necessarily agree with that argument.
In a larger sense, maybe it is true, but in fact, Egypt is a sovereign nation.
Now, if Egypt, acting on its own, wanted to do archaeology, I guess they would have that right, and we might sit back and grumble and mumble and say, come on folks, this is of concern to the entire world.
And we might have some reason to be doing that, but basically they're a sovereign nation, they can do what they want.
If, however, somebody is acting independently, and our nation, America, is influencing our man, or the way you've described him, Zahi Hawass, To do something secretly for us, then that needs to be exposed, and that's what I think this is all about.
One of the key things here is the relationship between HAWAS and the ARE.
Yeah.
The Casey Foundation, the Association for Research and Enlightenment.
This fall, in August, I was scheduled to speak at the ARE conference in Virginia Beach, as was Dr. HAWAS, as was Robert Cavall, and several other people.
When I talked with John Van Auken a few weeks ago, and he informed me that he did not want me to bring a video crew and to video our presentation, I pulled out.
When he informed me that basically he only wanted 270-some people in a small room in Virginia Beach to see what we had figured out, and not the rest of the world or the rest of the audience or the rest of people are interested, I said, John, thank you very kindly, but I'm not going to play.
There is some kind of interesting relationship documented between A.R.E.
and Dr. Hawass.
And A.R.E.
provided him the resources to get his Ph.D.
Don't leave who out there?
Mark Lehner.
Well, Mark Lehner is another interesting shadowy figure.
Dr. Lehner.
Dr. Lehner is a protege, also of A.R.E.
He's kind of... Well, I was thinking of a metaphor that probably is not appropriate, so I won't use it.
Thank you.
Dr. Lehner is a person who started out very much interested in the whole Cayce thesis, which is that there was a previous epoch, roughly 10,500 years ago, the so-called Atlantean epoch, a prior civilization, and he, Lehner, With the aegis of A.R.E.
behind him, would get a Ph.D., get the proper credentials, go to Egypt, and verify it.
Prove it.
Get an Egyptian wife.
Somewhere along the line, Dr. Lehner jumped the A.R.E.
ship, and has now become one of the most vocal critics of the whole Atlantean ancient civilization scenario.
On his own research.
His own research, Larry.
Pardon me?
His own research.
When he gathered the samples from the pyramid, the mortar samples, and they were dated... He grabbed restorative samples.
Say again?
He grabbed restoration samples that were done in the time of Khufu.
Right.
Well, the whole dating, you know, where he dated the top of the pyramid as being older than the bottom, and a whole bunch of incongruities, basically fits into the thesis that there's more to this pyramid than meets the eye or modern scientific analysis.
And what we seem to be seeing, particularly if we can trust Larry's sources, That material has been taken out of this secret chamber and funneled for a very high value to JPL of all places.
And it was done through the causeway off the east side down through into a little area across two canals called El Cumlauti.
We seem to be seeing a model of a high-tech complex being looted by agents of a high-tech government.
Or purposes somehow connected to the larger government space effort.
And that is not standard Egyptian Egyptology.
No, it is not.
And if it is true, it needs to be exposed.
And that is what we're doing this morning.
And so people who sit out there and say, well, I stayed up to listen to, you know, evidence that Egyptians are digging in the pyramids.
Come on.
They need to understand the profound place that this is really going and what's driving all of this.
And I think now, if they're still listening, they understand.
So... The thing that I'm concerned with is we're coming up on a key date.
Because of the computer, because of our ability to match the stars and to find these configurations and this thread through the moon landings, the Mars landings, The sighting over Phoenix, over the Giza Plateau, all coming to a climax on June 20th, 1997.
And Larry and his... July.
You mean July.
July 20th.
And Larry and his colleague... It's getting late over here, guys.
Larry and his colleague finding the bags of rocks, big rocks, which are the kind that you get when you break through a hole and go tumble into a larger chamber.
Alright, that's when the stuff gives away and you get the big pieces.
Sure.
So I think his inference that those are the last pieces when they got through in the new tunnel up above is very accurate.
That implies to me that we're on the verge of some kind of climax.
And I am very disturbed by what appeared on NASA's website tonight regarding Mars Pathfinder.
Because I'm beginning to believe that there will be two programs regarding Mars.
The one we get to see in the computer Very nicely made up in the virtual reality world of digital data bits so that all the honest folks think they're seeing Mars when in fact they're seeing an incredibly sophisticated high-tech simulation.
And then the real program Which will culminate, for some purpose unknown, on the 20th, in synchronization with events to be held in the Pyramid at Giza itself.
The 20th, from Mars' aspect, because we're dealing with the helical rising of Cirrus coming up on the 26th of July, which is where, from the Egyptians' point of view, on the Giza Plateau and the horizon, is that Cirrus will come up just before the Sun, after having been behind it for 70 days.
And this activity of going on now is foreshadowing the event of some ceremony associated with that star rising.
And that ceremony involves reincarnation, rebirth, immortality, the arc or the end of the beginning, the beginning of the end, in other words, the phoenix, the new rising from the ashes of the old.
And Richard, if I can add a little for arts here, because he did ask this, I would just suggest you read the Osirian Funerary text and and maybe they have the the opening mouth ceremony to occur with what's underneath that room and And and and that's very dangerous because that in a sense all this belongs to God I mean when you say it belongs to the Egyptians and it belongs to the world.
I Only see God as the architect in this and I don't want to get real religious off on a high level here but these things are beyond anything that that that we And modern times can even fathom.
Larry, I understand the larger argument.
I really do.
I think that the body is what they're after.
Of Osiris.
And I'll go on record with that right now.
If that's what you were trying to get out of me before, I would like to lay a lot of groundwork first, because I have literally hunted the deserts of Egypt, the hills, the farm, for the layout of the Orion constellation, of which I've finished this trip.
I've got the head of Messiah, the star of the Orion constellation.
I have the nebulas of Orion, M42 and M3.
I have GPS every one of these by right ascension and declination.
Correcting Robert Boval's errors of naming Zaleot, Bellatrix, of which should have been Beetlejuice.
shifting everything back out to the correct axes of which he would find with no problem
the things that he couldn't find in his book.
And he refuses to this day to get with me and let me show him what he misrepresented
to the reader at large that purchased his book.
Alright, have Bavall and Hancock been informed of what you two know?
I invited them to go with me and they were going to go and then they backed out several
times back of Les Edges.
I took four trips last year and in the February trip I invited them but then Robert Bavall
didn't want to be a part of it.
And it's his theory.
And his theory won't stand up to scientific right ascension declination scrutiny of meridian passages, the sequence of Rigel and... Larry, let me cut in here and try to simplify it just a little bit.
What Bavall has laid out in his book is a very interesting idea.
That the three main pyramids on the Giza Plateau correspond to the belt stars in the constellation of Orion, i.e.
Osiris.
What Larry has been doing quietly for about 18 years He's trying to find independently, even earlier, all the other stars in the Osiris-Orion constellation, as marked by aging, crumbling little bits of pyramidal architecture in the desert sands of Egypt.
At the surface level.
At the surface level.
And using this modern GPS technology, remember Magellan?
Astros, or archaeology, that's what I like to call it.
He is able to sight himself in the desert.
Sure.
On a mound.
And correlate that cartographic map position on the Earth on the Sahara Plain with the celestial position of the star corresponding to that spot in the sky over Egypt itself.
It's a literal equivalent of what we've been doing in the computer.
And what he has discovered, and what we're in the process of carefully corroborating, is that the Orion he has now found corresponding to all the other stars Above and beyond the three belt stars is an Orion that is subtly different than the Orion we now see.
And when you look at the positions of that Orion constellation, and you plug in the proper motions, the actual drift in space of the stars, You find that those stars correspond to the Orion as it would have appeared over Egypt several hundred thousand to perhaps a million years ago.
Take away the uh to several and I'll be happy.
That's why, that's why, there's a certain figure of uncertainty here, but that's why I think Larry is on the correct trail of the longevity and the ancient, ancient magnitude of this civilization.
And the various cycles and epics it's gone through and how all this information has become and has been handed down to us through some preservers, some core group.
And the fact that I can now find this same information showing up at the centerpiece of the American Space Program with key personnel connected between these two cultures Should provoke everyone listening to us tonight to want to know what in the world is going on and what's going to come to a climax on July 20th, 1997.
Well, I'm going to give a presentation in Laughlin, Nevada on around August.
There's a week presentation there put on by Bob Brown.
I don't, you know, I don't know if it's all right to talk like this.
But I have two hours that I'm going to give a presentation of walking an individual through the procession of texts of Una's sixth dynasty to where he went from on Heliopolis To a point called Lepopolis, making a turn, and then going into the center of Duat, through his fortress, down through a gateway to become Orion.
I have literally documented this whole thing.
I have the film footage of my 1988 time, where I went down and underneath the secret room, and I had an antiquities official making noise that I picked up on my video.
So when I get ready for this presentation on August 10th, or that week of it, I need this month between where I've just finished my research to smooth it all out, get my videos together and make one heck of a good presentation to get the attention that this is all highly scientific and that it is verifiable by science of modern astronomy and by techniques of GPS and going to the actual site and finding the evidence that supports the location of the mass of the star to the terrestrial picture on Egypt's plateau.
I've done it.
I finished.
I'm ready now.
As Richard said, I've been doing it for 18 years, and I've been very quiet.
You have got the crack on that, because that's really an exclusive on what I've been doing, that I've been very quiet and going over meticulously, and I have the trust of a lot of people, but now it comes to the point where after the evidence that I just acquired for Richard to support what he already had, is that I'm thoroughly convinced that we've got to stop whatever they're doing right now.
Well, if it's not already too late.
Well, only, you know, I would hope not that for the sake of the things that are there and its potential for whatever humanity will benefit from this is that it wasn't ever meant for the grave robber.
It was meant for the rightful heirs.
Sure.
In service to it not being too late, Larry is going to be joining us in Phoenix.
He doesn't know this, but he's going to be joining us in Phoenix, alright?
And he's going to be presenting this evidence, the video, the photographs, the complete story.
There's more of the evidence that we haven't had time to provide tonight.
For people who want to join us physically, call this information number.
602-944-2434.
602-944-2434. 602-944-2434. And you'll see a lot more that we're going to get up on the
website in the next few hours.
You'll see the complete story and you can participate in exploring this link between what they're planning at Giza and what someone seems to be planning in Phoenix, Arizona.
Indeed.
All right.
Larry, I want to thank you for, I know you're tired.
I know it was a long, long plane ride from Egypt.
And so I want to thank you for being here.
And I'll look forward to getting that FedEx delivery from you.
And Richard, as always... Thanks.
Great.
Art, can I say one thing to the people of Egypt before you do this?
Cut me down.
Real quick.
I am.
I love you.
All right.
That's it.
Richard, good night.
Good night, Art.
That's it, folks.
From the high desert, not the Egyptian desert, we're out of time.
Talk to you tomorrow night.
David Oates.
Good night.
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