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June 26, 1997 - Art Bell

03:20:17

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Teresa Martino - Wolves. RC Hoagland & Larry Hunter - Egyptian Pyramid

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54:16

richard c hoagland

01:30:11

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jamie shandera

00:39

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		the Rockies and you're listening to AM 1500 KSTP.
		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, or good morning, as the case may be, across all these many prolific time zones.
		From the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains in the west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south all the way into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is coast to coast a.m.
		Good morning, I'm Martell.
		We are going to do two things this night.
		One is we are going to talk to a woman named Teresa Martino, or T. Martino.
		She wrote a book called The Wolf, The Woman, the Wilderness.
		A true story of returning home.
		It's a born-free kind of thing.
		I don't know if you've ever been around a wild animal or not.
		I have.
		As you know, I have my little wild animal, Comet, but absolutely wild he was, and now a year later, and it's been about a year.
		He's about three quarters domesticated.
		And I'm not sure that last quarter will ever change.
		It may.
		I don't know.
		I watch him by the day, and I see little niches of change in my comet.
		And he gets just a little closer to human beings, but we are still not his favorite things in all the world.
		But he's getting better.
		A wild animal is an incredible thing to behold.
		Absolutely incredible.
		In the case of Timartino, she lives, I believe, on an island off the state of Washington.
unidentified		And she has wolves.
unidentified		Lots of wolves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess she decided to take one back into the wilderness and teach it how to be a wolf again.
		At least I think that's what we're talking about here.
		And it should be quite a story.
		And that'll be coming up here in a moment.
		And then later this morning, we are going to do what I have been fearing in a way.
		We are going to have Richard C. Hoagland on with others who have just returned from Egypt.
		And we are going to absolutely blow the lid off what's going on in Egypt.
		Now, as you know, I'm going to Egypt in October, and there have been some people who have called up the travel service that they're booked with to come with us to Egypt, and they have said, does this mean we can't go into Egypt?
		No, of course not.
		Does it mean I may not be able to go into Egypt?
		Yes, it may mean that.
		I may have to stay on the ship after tonight's show.
		I don't know.
		There are things going on over there that I will not detail now.
		I will let Richard and his agent, and I say agent, somebody who went to Egypt for him and just literally returned today with the goods, the evidence.
		I will let them detail it for you.
unidentified		It's wild.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really wild.
		And there is going to be a bit of an explosion politically in Egypt later today.
		So that's about all I can tell you or will tell you right now.
		That'll be coming up at midnight Pacific time in about an hour and 50 minutes.
		So we're going to find out about a woman who actually for months went into the wilderness with a wolf in a moment.
		C for Ken Roberts Company.
		All right, here we go.
		Here is T for Teresa Martino.
		Teresa, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you exactly?
unidentified		I'm on an island in Puget Sound.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On an island?
unidentified		Yeah, in Washington State.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'll tell you, it is beautiful there.
		I flew up one time to my affiliate, KOMO, in Seattle, and from an airplane, when you look offshore Washington, the islands are just spectacular.
		So there are many, many islands up there.
		And I would imagine many of them not generally even inhabited.
		How inhabited is your island?
unidentified		Oh, it's inhabited.
		It's an inhabited island.
		It's inhabited by a really great community of people.
		And I have to really thank them for a lot of my success in being able to write my books and also being able to keep the wolves because I have, can you imagine trying to rent a place with wolves?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rent a place?
unidentified		Well, I mean, if you wanted, it's hard to rent a place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		I mean, sure.
		Going in and saying, here I am, and oh, by the way, I have wolves.
unidentified		Yeah, it's not going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many wolves do you have?
unidentified		I have three.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have three wolves?
unidentified		Yeah, I've been doing rescue work for about 15 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Full-blown, full-blooded wolves?
unidentified		I have two that are pure, and I have one that's a hybrid that's apart-bred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me begin by asking, a full-blown wolf, Teresa, is that an animal that is ever in any sense domestic?
unidentified		No.
		And they're not good pets.
		No.
		That's the sad part about doing the rescue work is people get them as pets and think they'll be able to make good pets and they just don't.
		They don't belong in captivity, belong wild.
		But the animals that are in captivity now, I just, I can't stand to see them put down.
		So that's why I try and keep Them and have a place for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Teresa, what happens if you get a wolf from the moment it's born and treat it instead as a dog?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can it then be domestic, or is a wild wolf a wild wolf from day one, no matter what you do?
unidentified		It'll still be wild, but it will really bond to you.
		It'll bond to the people that it has known as a cub, really closely bond to them.
		And they're so intelligent and loyal, that's the thing that attracts people to them.
		And, you know, just that bonding is incredible.
		But they won't, in fact, I have one purebred tundra here, but only the people that knew him when he was young, he was actually going to be in the movies as a movie animal.
		And the woman who was the trainer for him got into a car accident.
		And so he came from one place to my rescue place.
		And he will only let the people see him who knew him as a young animal.
		Anyone else, he hides.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really feel the need to tell you a little story, and you may have already heard it, but I have a cat.
unidentified		Yeah, I've heard about your cat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Found him under the house, trapped him with a have-a-hard trap, took him to the vet, had the vet do the whole ball of wax, you know, while this cat was knocked out.
		And this poor little cat came home, you know, groggy, still under the influence.
		And we put him in a little cat bed and we watched him.
		We just sort of sat there on the rug and watched him.
		And he woke up and he looked around.
		He blinked three times and he jumped vertically five feet or five and a half feet straight up into the air.
		Began running into walls until he bloodied himself.
		Was as wild as any animal I have ever seen in my whole life.
		Either had no contact with humans or bad contact.
		But then, Teresa, he was so wild, I mean, so totally out of control, that we had to, he lived in our bathroom for about a half a year.
		Couldn't come out of the bathroom.
		Was capable of jumping about six feet in the air.
		When he finally decided he was going to come out of the bathroom, he literally leaped six feet over some double doors and came out.
		Then for the next three months, he found he could crawl up behind our dresser drawers and get into one of the drawers and make a little nest.
		And so for about three months, he lived in the drawer.
unidentified		He felt safe in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He felt safe.
		That's right.
		Then slowly he ventured out from there.
		And now his new home is behind, I have a water bed, and he lives behind the waterbed.
unidentified		I couldn't have a waterbed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, now this cat is bonded to me, Teresa.
		And when I say bonded to me, I really mean that.
		If anybody else comes in this house, anybody, like a shot, he's gone.
		Now, I passed by the part where he bloodied my hand and sent me to the hospital.
		He doesn't do that anymore, and I can pick him up.
		And we have bonded.
		I have bonded with this animal.
		But anybody else, anybody else, and he will be behind that bed like an orange flash and doesn't want anything to do with him.
		This is a wild feral animal.
		But he has bonded with me.
		And I guess you're telling me that's what can occur with the wolf.
unidentified		That's what happens with the wolf, yeah.
		And I have a wolf den under my house.
		I have a 15-foot wolf den.
		Yeah, the wolf dug a big tunnel and then a den at the end of it.
		And they go down in there.
		And I've crawled down in there, too.
		It's really cool.
		Except one time it collapsed, and I was standing over the top of it after a really heavy rain.
		And I kind of went through the top of the wolf's den into the kind of chamber, wolf kind of room underneath.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And ended up standing on one of the poor wolves who ran out of there real fast.
unidentified		But they have, it's interesting, you know, how they'll dig kind of down at an angle and then kind of angle it up and dig a chamber so the water doesn't go up into their, where they sleep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Yes, yes.
		I believe turtles have a similar habitat, don't they?
unidentified		I think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What got you interested in wolves in the first place?
unidentified		Well, my mom, she says that I always loved wolves as a kid.
		And I can remember my dad, we were up in, gosh, up north somewhere, and he, one time when I was a child, pointed out hearing wolves and saying that's a wolf.
		And I can remember really being affected by that.
		And I think it's also kind of an ancestral thing.
		Sometimes I think that my doing the rescue work for the wolves is kind of payback because, you know, there's a lot of old legends about the wolves teaching humanity how to hunt by people, you know, people watching how the wolves hunt.
		Sure.
		And how to take care of their families because they live in such tight social groups.
		They're really good examples that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are their social groups like?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are wolves, for example, faithful to their mates?
unidentified		Yeah, they are.
		If their mate does die, I mean, it's just like individuals.
		Some of them will go ahead and take another mate, and some will not.
		You know, I think sometimes what happens is people forget that animals are as individual as we are and have different personalities.
		Of the animals I have now, they're just totally, they're all totally different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, so are mine.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I have the one tundra who's very, very shy, and I have a timber who is not, who is actually pretty friendly.
		And when I do the wolf lecture stuff, I use him.
		I use Lav.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I take it that where you live, having wild animals Is legal.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ditto here.
		I'm out in the middle of the desert, and you can have lions and tigers.
		It's legal.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not that I would have one, thank you, but you can have them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a few places left like that in the U.S. This is one of them, and I guess you're in one of them.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, there is a very specific story about one wolf that apparently you decided to take back to the wilderness?
unidentified		Yeah, I did about six years ago.
		This was an animal that came from a rescue center that was closing down way, way up north.
		And there was something about her that was different from the other animals I have.
		I have to say that most purebreds could not ever go back.
		It was very difficult what she did.
		And I would never suggest releasing a hybrid or someone just going out on their own and doing this.
		This was, you know, I've worked with animals all my life.
		Why not?
		Well, because I think that unless you've been out in the wilderness a lot yourself, it would be very difficult for you to teach them.
		It isn't that they can just go back and instinctively learn to hunt.
		It's not like that.
		The set of circumstances behind this particular wolf's release, her name was Mackenzie, or is McKenzie, was very difficult.
		She was second generation removed from the wild.
		And so her grandparents on both sides were wild.
		And they were very, you know, she was very, very predatory and extremely shy.
		And that made a big difference for her going back.
		The thing that was interesting about her release, you know, we all know about synchronicity, but my books and living on the island and this wolf's release were very, there was a lot of things that happened that were synchronistic that made this come about.
		One is I didn't have to work really during that time.
		I didn't have to pay rent.
		People on the island let me barter for my rent of the land that I live on with the wolves.
		And that helps a lot.
		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you had free time.
unidentified		I had free time.
		And so I was able to go up into the wilderness with her and hunt.
		And the book that, the first book that I wrote, was written really inspired by some of the ideas about her and about humanity's loss of connection to the wilderness.
		And it's common sense.
		Because the wilderness, the land has a lot of common sense in it.
		And I think we've strayed from that.
		And I think that's what helps us live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seriously strayed from it.
unidentified		Yeah.
		And that's something else that I think this particular wolf taught me.
		And, you know, when I was hunting with her, it was hard to say who was teaching who, whether she was teaching me or I was teaching her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long a period of time, for how long a period of time did it actually go on?
unidentified		It took one year.
unidentified		One year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How in the world do you teach, now I saw Born Free, and that was, in its own way, similar to what you did?
unidentified		Yeah, very much so.
		Mackenzie started hunting small rodents around my cabin very, very early.
		And she actually followed my old dog, Beanie, around after small mice and stuff.
		And I fed her roadkill because I didn't want her to get a taste of domestic food.
		So she ate roadkill deer that we picked up on the island.
		And then what I started doing was taking her up with me into the wilderness areas and taking her to places where she would encounter the various game that she would normally encounter in the wild.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One day at a time, or were you gone for long periods?
unidentified		Yeah, it would depend.
		Sometimes I was only able to go on weekends, and then other times I went for long periods of time.
		And so it was, you know, it was tough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's seriously into the wilderness.
		I mean, you were actually just out without general cover, and you were trekking through the wilderness with this wolf?
		And who led who?
unidentified		I, in the beginning, led her, and what I did is followed water.
		You know, followed, because most game, that's what they do.
		They follow water.
		And then after a while, I would follow her because obviously her senses were such, you know, they were much more acute than mine were.
		And one thing that was really interesting about hunting with her is how wild animals pass through the brush without fighting it.
		They move very delicately, and they can move very slowly, and they don't, like, we have a tendency, if you go to a city, people march, you know, they march along, and they go very quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wouldn't your scent as a human being spoil if the wind was the wrong way, any opportunity for your wolf?
unidentified		You watched that.
unidentified		You watched where the wind was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You watched where the wind was.
unidentified		Yeah, and also, well, if you're in bear country, too, you want to really watch where the wind is.
unidentified		You want the bears to know you're coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's true.
		All right.
		Teresa, stand by.
		We'll get back to you in a moment.
		Her book is The Wolf, The Woman, and the Wilderness.
		And she actually took a wolf back to the wilderness and taught it how to be a wolf again.
		Can you imagine?
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		This is CBC.
		CBC.
		The End Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard lines at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Good to be here.
		At midnight Pacific time, Richard Hoagland and Larry Hunter are going to be my guests, and we're going to blow the top off what's going on in Egypt.
		Good luck to us.
		This is the program you've been waiting for.
		In addition, right now, we've got Teresa Martino.
		Teresa took a wolf back to the wild.
		And only if you have ever worked with a wild animal can you understand what it's like.
		It requires more patience, more love, more understanding than I think any chore that I've ever undertaken in my whole life.
		And that's from my cat.
		I can barely imagine a full-size wolf.
		That's what she did.
		Back to the wild with it.
		We'll get back to her in a moment, Brady.
		America's trusted name in private hard assets.
		You don't have to be rich to own gold.
		Just Marty, and I presume many of you are that.
		Back to Teresa Martino.
		Teresa, hi.
		Hi.
		All right, so you began this trek of taking this wolf back into the wilderness.
		Give us some idea.
		Oh, I hear wolves.
unidentified		Yeah, that's their wolf tape.
unidentified		I thought I'd try and get a bowl for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, my goodness, they have a different sound.
unidentified		Than coyotes, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Than coyotes.
		Of course, I'm in the desert.
		We have coyotes here.
		Can you tell me what the difference is between a coyote and a wolf?
unidentified		Well, coyotes, number one, are smaller and more solitary, though there has been some animals that have packed up actually in Yellowstone.
		Wolves are much more social, much more group-orientated, and much shyer.
		And that is why I think the coyotes did okay when the wolves really didn't, you know, when the wolves got exterminated.
		The coyotes were able to survive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The coyotes don't seem to want to have anything to do with humans at all.
		They take off.
		You know, every now and then I'll see one traips across the yard or nearby.
		But they take off.
		Now, it is very bizarre.
		At night here, I will hear coyotes outside very close.
		They get very close.
		Yip, yip, yip, yip kind of sound.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's very eerie at times.
		When they're making that sound, is that have something to do with mating calls?
		Or are they just talking to each other?
		Or what are they doing?
unidentified		They're doing the coyote version of the Art Bell Show Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isaac.
unidentified		I had to say that.
		Well, they're probably talking about a lot of different things.
		You know, how the hunting is, what the wife's up to, where the kids are.
		Really?
		This is my territory.
		That's yours.
		You stay put.
		Really?
		Yeah.
		Wolves do that too.
		Wolves, you know, when they howl are saying a variety of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you actually begin to discern what they are saying?
unidentified		Yeah, I was really able to do that with McKenzie.
		And with the different tapes, I went down on a book tour down in California, and I didn't bring my normal wolf tape I use because I usually play a wolf tape before I speak.
		And the tape that I found at a little music shop had some wolves on it that were really sad.
		And the tape that I had had two wolves on it that were talking to each other across a valley.
		And so that really changed it for me to do the reading because this one wolf that was howling on this tape that I got down in California was really very, very sad and lonely, wondering where his family was.
		And these wolves that are on my tape were quite kind of conversational almost, talking to each other across a valley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why are wolves in trouble?
unidentified		Well, the biggest, we're in trouble too.
		Part of it is the fact that the wilderness is being so decimated.
		And they require, the top predators require a lot of space in order to survive.
		They need a lot of land.
		And that land is disappearing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much territory does a wolf in the wild generally claim as its own?
unidentified		About 70 square miles.
		Wow.
		A lot of land.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One wolf, 70 square miles.
unidentified		That's a small family.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of land.
unidentified		That's a lot of land.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they are constantly marking that, I presume.
unidentified		Marking it, and they're great travelers.
		They'll travel all around on that particular area.
		They're very territorial.
		Very territorial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so a wolf, would a wolf ever cross intentionally into another's territory?
unidentified		They really try not to do that.
		And that was the thing that was very difficult about putting Mackenzie back is she had to be in an area where there were a few wolves so she would be able to finally find a path.
		But she couldn't be in an area where there were a lot of wolves because they would think she was an interloper.
		Sure.
		She would have trouble going back with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how did you do that?
unidentified		Well, what it is, I found a place, it took a lot of looking and a lot of thought and research on my part, that had, you know, three or four wolves that were pretty solitary and probably young animals that had left their own families, young animals that were kind of looking for a territory to establish.
		And so what I did is put her on the outskirts of where I thought they were, and she ended up joining one of them.
		And that really helped her go back because this animal knew a lot more about the wilderness than I could ever teach her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as we destroy the wilderness, which we're doing on a very regular basis, and a wolf cannot find sufficient territory, what happens?
unidentified		Well, lots of things can happen.
		They'll migrate.
		For one thing, they can get into trouble.
		I mean, when the American West opened up and the game was depleted, you know, the frontier became a richland for cattle and sheep, and the game disappeared.
		The wolf had nothing else to eat except the animals that were out here.
		And wolves generally don't want to kill domestic animals.
		I have, in my travels, have found that they much prefer game animals, but they're like you and I. If your family is starving, you're going to eat what you can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do what you have to do.
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		And that can be, you know, tough because people are very jealous of what they have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how did you even keep this wolf close to you, or had this wolf at that point bonded to you and wanted to stay close in the beginning to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did that work?
unidentified		Well, in the beginning, she did stay very, very close to me.
		In fact, the one thing that I'll never forget was the look on her face when she saw her first live wild buck.
		And she'd been eating deer for, you know, several months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, folks, we've got a bad phone connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got to understand, Teresa is out on an island where the phone connections are not that hot, so these pops and crackles are something we're just going to have to put up with.
unidentified		It's high tide.
		The crabs are working on the line.
		I see.
		Doug told me to say that to you.
		Okay.
		Anyway, what she did is when we saw that buck, she turned and looked up at me, and I could just tell in her expression and what she was thinking was, that's what we've been eating, that big thing over there with horns?
		And she was very surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, up until this point, she had only had roadkill samples.
unidentified		Yeah, and I think she thought I must have been a really tremendous hunter because I would bring back these roadkills, and these deer would be pretty much, you know, flattened.
unidentified		And she'd think, boy, mom is really good at this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that usually what a wolf mother will do for her?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is a cub a right word?
unidentified		Yeah, they call them cubs.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what a mother does for cubs, or is it the male that does it?
unidentified		They both do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They both do it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They both do it.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Yeah, they're both very, very family-oriented.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then this wolf was bonded to you in the sense that you had brought the food, so you were a mom.
unidentified		Yes, I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
unidentified		And that was what made it very hard to give her the choice to go back.
		But, you know, I had to give her the choice to go back.
		I didn't make her go back.
		I let her, allowed her to choose it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did you decide to even try it?
unidentified		There was something about her that just seemed to me that she really needed to try it.
		And there was also something, to me, Mackenzie's journey represented something about myself going back to, about reclaiming.
		You know, there's something about humanity that's kind of like we've made ourselves orphans from the land.
		Like we've separated ourselves from the land.
		We're all orphans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
unidentified		And that is not right because we're not.
		We're as much a part of the land as the wolves are.
		We're supposed to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're supposed to be.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Teresa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if we continue to move away, it is my heartfelt belief that we're headed for a disaster.
unidentified		Well, and what we have to do is decide to grow up enough that we look at what's wrong and we decide to change it, to just fix it, to do the best we can to fix it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's going to require sufficient numbers of people to come to this realization for anything real to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I hate to be a pessimist, but I don't see that occurring.
unidentified		Well, I'm hoping that it will occur.
		And I'm hoping that enough people will wake up.
		In fact, let me read you the first part of the little preface in the book.
		Okay.
		And this is kind of my thoughts on this.
		I know a wolf.
		She was born captive in the northern mountains, but her grandparents were free.
		I taught the wolf to return to her people.
		For a year, we traveled between my cabin and the northern wilderness.
		And in that time, I returned to my people.
		The circle comes around, and the wolf became my guide.
		Now my eyes are bright gold like the wolf's.
		My pupils narrow to a pinprick.
		The animals can speak.
		The wild has not lost her voice.
		She is calling us.
		Her voice is in the howling of wolves.
		And the wolves say, come home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you felt that she had to come home.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that that was the right thing for her.
unidentified		And I think she also was an analogy about us.
unidentified		If Mackenzie couldn't return to the wild, I think that somehow in my mind, I felt that we couldn't either, that we couldn't go back either, that we couldn't fix what was going on in the world on the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That it had gone too far.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I think to me, that's what that meant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there she was, staring at a buck, looking up at you as though, is this what I'm supposed to do?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did she do?
unidentified		Well, what I started doing, the buck was totally, we didn't affect him.
unidentified		He looked at us and just kept chewing like, huh, big deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Well, he recognized that we were very little threat to him.
		You know, she was half-grown and I was a human being with nothing, you know, unarmed.
		And so I started stalking him, and that created enough in Mackenzie to get her to chase him, which is what I really wanted her to do, is to chase.
		But in the beginning, you know, she didn't take deer.
		She took small animals.
		You know, she took little animals, rabbits and things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So finally, Mackenzie took after this buck.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
		Then she chased him, and that was the beginning of her realizing that the animals that I was bringing back to her were the proper food for her to eat.
		These deer.
		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you feel Mackenzie begin to pull away from you as the process continued?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or did that bond remain as the wildness returned?
unidentified		Well, even now, I feel the bond.
		I mean, I feel that there's a connection to her.
		And you have to realize that I went back up there several times after the release.
		And she did actually, she went back successfully.
		She did mate.
		She did have cubs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		And so I went back over a period of Two years to check on her, and she actually met me.
		There was a certain area in the fall that I would come to, and she would be there.
		And I think pulling away is a good way of putting it.
		She pulled away the way a child pulls away when she grows up.
		And an adult, my mother has a saying that I think is really good.
		A parent's job is to teach the child to live without the parent and to survive.
		And that was, McKenzie knew that, you know, she wasn't a pet.
		She was an adult wolf with, you know, a life of her own and a nation of her own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you about you.
		Another part of the back of your book says, on the paths through the woods, hunting with the wolves, another me walks.
		My hair grows longer.
		I do not tie it up.
		The blackberry bushes take hairs from me that I suppose the birds will use later.
		Walking slowly and watching carefully, I think of the deer and their narrow, slotted hooves.
		Step, pause, step, breathe.
unidentified		Look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't slap at the twigs that grab and poke.
		Stroke them aside, and soon they dance with my movements and gracefully let me pass.
		The little wolf does these things naturally.
		So I guess that's your way of saying that as you were out there, you began to take on a certain wildness yourself.
unidentified		Yeah, and a slowness.
		You know, people, one of the things that has to happen, I think, in order for us to fix what's going on in the world is we all have to slow down.
		Because when you move fast, you make mistakes.
		And people are living so quickly.
		I mean, like you're quickening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		The idea of the quickening.
		Yes.
		People are living so quickly that they don't have time to think about what they're doing.
		They don't have time to think, well, how does this affect the environment, how I'm living?
		And that makes it really hard to stop.
		And then the other thing that has been interesting going on book tour down in California was people that I had talked to down there.
		People were very nice to us down there.
		I actually was born in Northern California.
		But as we get farther and farther removed from the wilderness, people aren't going to know what they're losing.
		And that's scary.
		There was a woman at one book reading that said that she had met a man that was afraid to walk barefoot on the grass.
		Now that's really losing your connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really scary.
		I've kind of gone the other way in my adventure with this cat, Teresa.
		In other words, I'm trying to tame a wild animal.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A truly wild animal.
		And it has been, I've actually thought of writing a book about it myself because it has been the biggest adventure of my life.
		It's impossible to convey to the listeners, but I spend hours per day trying to bond with this cat.
		And it works, but it works in very tiny little increments.
		And had anybody else, anybody else, put their hands on this cat, I guarantee they would have put this cat down as something that could never be helped, never be tamed, never bond with any human being.
		I have no idea how it could have become that wild, that feral, but it would not have lived.
		Purity, it would not have lived.
		They would have thought it perhaps even diseased.
		You know, it was lashing out.
		But the truth is, when I finally got down to the basic personality of this cat, it is the sweetest animal I've ever seen.
		And all wildness, or what I saw as wildness or craziness, was fear.
		It was only fear.
		And when the fear fell away, then the personality emerged.
unidentified		Yep, and that your story with your cat is a little bit like the story of Aniskim, the horse.
		I was gifted a horse from the Blackfeet Horse Coalition who are trying to get their horses back.
		And this is a wild horse.
		It's a buffalo horse, one of the old plains horses that people fought on.
		And he has been like that, too.
		Most of his, the problem was some people had come and roped him a couple of weeks before I came and had really scared him.
		And then when I came, you know, I asked him if he wanted to go, if he wanted to come with me.
		And we led him into the round pen with food and a tame gelding.
		And I spent some time down there with him, petting him, trying to get him to smell me and realize I wasn't going to force him to come with me.
		Sure.
		If he wanted to come, he could come.
		And spending time, that kind of patience, is a really good teacher for people.
		It's really good for the children to witness that slowness, that much time, and how the animal begins to look at you then not with fear, but with wonder.
		Yes.
		And that's a very beautiful thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not many people are willing or able to be fair to them.
		I mean, if you live in the middle of a city now, for example, there just simply is not the time.
		There's not the atmosphere.
		You're just not able to do it.
		So you're in a very unique position, Teresa.
		There you are in the middle of nowhere on an island.
		And we'll talk a little more about that in a moment.
		Teresa, stand by.
		We're at the top of the hour and we'll be right back.
		All right?
		All right, stay right there.
		This, of course, is CBC.
		Listen to what she's saying carefully.
unidentified		Please don't breathe.
		Ready through this tune.
		I see them blue from me.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is if you just slow down and check it out a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
unidentified		As the skies are blue, and clouds are white.
		So brightness.
		Darkness.
		cannot be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		On AM 1500 KSTP.
		Call large bell.
		Pull free, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		My guest is T Martino, Teresa Martino.
		Her book is The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness.
		And it is the story of the return to wilderness of a wolf.
		And I guess a woman, too.
		Because Teresa is doing roughly the opposite of what I've been doing.
		I've been trying to tame a wild animal.
		And she took a wild animal that wasn't quite wild and reintroduced it to the wild.
		It's a small, time-consuming, incremental, incredibly delicate thing to do.
		It's quite a story.
		We'll get back to hers in a moment.
unidentified		65.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's 1-800-2325-665.
		You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
		Tell them Art Bell sent you.
		There are many, many, many wonderful pictures in Teresa's book, but there is one toward the very beginning of McKenzie that is absolutely a classic.
		Teresa, welcome back.
unidentified		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's really neat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can hear them in the background.
unidentified		Yeah, they had a big chorus here just a minute ago, and then they stopped, and then they grabbed my, you know, they steal, and they grabbed my coffee cup, and there's coffee now all over the floor, and then they tried to grab my paper that I wrote all my stuff on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, they're really wolves like paper, too, huh?
unidentified		Oh, you know, if you need things shredded?
		Yeah.
		Whoa, there they go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there they go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, somebody writes and asks, Art, can you please ask Teresa how hybrid wolf dog is for a pet?
unidentified		You know, I can't say that I really, I try not to be judgmental on anyone because life is too complex to do that.
unidentified		But to be honest with you, I have my hesitation about having them as pets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even you mean even the hybrids?
unidentified		Yeah, because a lot of the hybrids are very hard to take care of, too.
		And purebred wolves are very, very shy, and in some ways that makes them easier.
		Whereas a hybrid, it can be anything.
		It can have a very predatory nature and not be very shy, and that can be not too good to have around.
		The very low percentage animals are pretty much dogs.
		And so to me, a hybrid wolf is not really a wolf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What helped me with my feral cat was my other cats.
		I've got two other cats, very, very domestic, sometimes too domestic, thank you.
		And they helped immeasurably in sort of showing Comet, that's my cat, the wild one, occasionally the way and drawing Comet out when otherwise Comet would not have come near a human being.
unidentified		Yeah, and I have a Weimariner, an old Weimariner dog that has done that.
		And she's been around quite a few of the wolves.
		And I think every time I have had a wolf to do, you know, to rescue, she's always looked at me and said, oh, my God, not another wolf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not another wolf.
unidentified		You know, the cubs, you know, I don't generally get them as cubs.
unidentified		Usually people don't want them somewhere between six months and a year old when they find out how destructive they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, a wild wolf, taken as a cub, is okay and cute for a while.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And runs around and does what a puppy would almost do and maybe a little more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But then as it begins growing, instead of taming, it goes the other way and begins to get destructive.
unidentified		Well, and what they're doing, their destructiveness is really exploring.
		In the wild, they need that ability and that intelligence and curiosity in order to live.
		And they're the type of animals that, you know, just won't chew on the arm of your couch.
		They'll tear the entire couch apart piece by piece.
		In fact, people, I always have to keep these animals, you know, amused.
		I have somebody who was taking some sofa cushions to the dump, and I said, well, can I have the sofa cushions?
		And so I brought them to the wolves, and the wolves had a great time.
		They just shredded them.
		I thought it was really wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In my case, with a cat, it's nothing more serious than a roll of paper or something like that, which they will shred.
		And my wild one is slowly chewing its way around an entire box.
		I've got these big paper boxes for fax paper.
		And he has literally chewed two sides of an entire box to nothing.
		Every morning I go out and pick up the little pieces of box.
		It's sort of a habit with him.
		It's at least fairly non-destructive.
		Better that than the couch.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, listen, with Mackenzie, when did the final, I mean, months went by.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long total did it take?
unidentified		It was about a year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A year?
unidentified		I really started taking her out around four months.
		She was already hunting rodents around the cabin and in the woods by my house.
		But, you know, obviously she couldn't go back on the island.
		And so then I started taking her out at four months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when did the final moments with Mackenzie come?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, that moment when McKenzie left you?
unidentified		Well, you have to read the book.
		No.
		Anyway, what happened is I never knew exactly when she would go back.
		You know, I had to keep trying to take her out and take her out.
		And the final release, I had kind of an idea when it would be, and I wanted it to be in the spring when the young animals are born because they're much easier to catch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		And then there's also, you know, animals are still born and there's more chance for her to be successful and more food around.
		And we were out for a week to 10 days with her up north, me and my friend Mike.
		Hi, Mike.
		I know you're listening.
		And he came to kind of keep, if we encountered any people, to kind of, you know, keep people away from us.
		We were way out, but you still run into people out there now.
		And she actually was successful hunting that trip with a deer.
		And there was something about her that kind of changed after that happened.
		And we went back down to our base camp, and she wouldn't come back with us.
		She had kind of made her decision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you knew then?
unidentified		Yeah, I knew then.
		And then she did follow us part way back.
		And, you know, I kind of mentally, you know, had a conversation with her, you know, saying, you know, do you want to come with me or not?
		If you come with me, that's fine.
		If you don't want to, that's fine too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you sad, happy?
unidentified		Well, it broke my heart.
		It broke my heart to let her go.
		But, you know, it's again, it's like being a parent.
		You know, the idea is not to keep the child forever, and you don't want someone to be a child forever.
		You want to be an adult.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		That's kind of a strange thing about our culture, too, I think.
unidentified		You know, I think it's cool to be an adult.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm enjoying it myself, as a matter of fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And given an opportunity, I wouldn't want to go back to.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's the way things are meant to be.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what's next for you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you have wolves there now.
unidentified		Well, we're trying to form a non-profit for the wolves.
		That's one thing that's happening.
		And then I'm working also with the Blackfeet Buffalo Horse Coalition.
		And that is a project to get the horses back to the plains people, the New York people.
		Most of those horses were taken away from the plains people in the beginning of this century and killed.
		And those horses were very important.
		And, you know, the people had a breeding program, and some nations still do.
		And I got involved with them, Bob Black Bull and his friends.
		And that's why they gifted me this one stallion.
		I'm doing that, and I'm still riding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about this big controversy regarding Yellowstone and the reintroduction of the gray wolf to Yellowstone?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of opposition to it.
unidentified		Yeah, there is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about that?
unidentified		The animals were already coming back.
		The packs that are there now, from what I hear, are doing very well, are very successful.
		And there hasn't actually been that many problems.
		I think slowly, as people realize the animals will work out there, the controversy will die away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a matter of fact, it has sort of died away.
		I haven't heard very much lately.
		There was great fear that they would stray from Yellowstone and begin killing wild livestock, that kind of thing.
		And it just didn't occur.
		Have you ever been in trouble with the wolf?
		In other words, as you develop a relationship with any wild animal, there are moments when you can certainly get in trouble.
		You misjudge, or the animal misjudges.
		You're both somewhat distrustful of each other.
		As much as you mentally try to communicate, there are occasions where you can make mistakes.
		And when I look at, for example, page 66 with a photograph of a wolf with its teeth showing, a mistake with a wolf could be potentially fatal.
unidentified		It could be tough.
		They're actually, they're much more into gesture, and they'll growl than physical violence.
		If they were as violent as people, there would be no packs.
		I mean, they wouldn't be able to work socially together.
		I mean, make no mistake, they're very, very powerful.
		In fact, Shoka, that's the tundra wolf, got kind of angry at me the other day because he wanted to go outside and go on his run.
		I run them on long lines.
		And he didn't want to have the leash on, and so I said, okay, well, you'll have to wait until you decide you want it on.
		And I took the other ones out, and while I was opening the gate, he came out and very carefully grabbed the back of my sweater and pulled me over and dragged me, you know, three or four feet.
		And they're tremendously powerful.
		But the thing that amazes me about them is they're very careful, too.
		When Shoka first came, when he was very, very young, I put him in with the two big males, and, you know, they instantly adopted him and were very careful with him.
		And he regards them as his parents.
		The only time, I mean, when I get rescues that have been abused, because a lot of times what happens to animals that people fear is they beat them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know.
unidentified		And with wolves, or with any animal, or with any person, that's just a criminal thing.
		It's very bad.
		When that happens to a wolf, they can get, you know, very fouled up.
		And those animals can be tough to deal with.
		They can be potentially dangerous to deal with.
		Mackenzie got angry with me one time, and she was eating a rabbit, and I was standing, I guess, too close, and she was very young and ambitious at that period of time.
		And she saw me staring at the rabbit, and she ran up to me and grabbed my hands in her mouth, and their back teeth, not their fangs, but their back teeth are like shears.
		They're very, very sharp.
		And she just moused my hands and growled.
		Didn't clamp, but just mouthed.
		And I just held still.
		And then she let go and ran back to her rabbit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was like a warning.
unidentified		It was a warning.
unidentified		And that was about the most I've had happen with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's lucky.
unidentified		Yeah.
		She and I, though, I trusted her a lot.
		And, you know, most of it, too, with people is what their attitude is.
		You know, what your feelings are about what's happening if you're afraid.
		Working with horses for a long time, you can't work.
		Horses, you can't lie to horses.
		You can't lie to wolves either.
		You can't lie really to any animal.
		They just, their perception of it is real high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, this may seem pretty wild, but I'll try it out on you.
		I am convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt, and I'll take a lot of heat for this and I don't care, but in my work with this wild cat of mine over the last year, I have decided, Teresa, that humans can telepathically communicate with animals telepathically.
		I guess it's telepathic.
		I don't know what else to call it or what other word that people would understand, but I can put my head down near this cat and doing nothing else, holding it, which I can now finally do, it hears me.
		I don't say anything, but it hears me and it begins purring.
		It knows that there's some sort of communication that's occurring between the two of us, and it knows.
		Do you feel that that kind of communication is possible?
unidentified		Yeah, I do.
		And I, again, am like you.
		I'm not sure if it's actually telepathy.
		In the work with horses that I've done, the old masters didn't talk about it as telepathy.
		But to me, it is something that comes not necessarily body language, but it comes from your body.
		I trust my body, trust my guts, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, maybe it's our more than my head.
		Maybe it's our aura.
		Maybe it's just an instinctual sensing of your feelings and emotion and intentions.
		Telepathy is just a word.
		But I know that if I concentrate on the projection of love and tenderness, the cat's ears suddenly go from being laid back to straight up.
		It knows that everything's okay.
		And then pretty soon it becomes happy.
		And so there is a kind of communication.
		Telepathy may be a strong word, but it is only a word.
unidentified		And people can feel this too.
		I mean, between two people or between a group of people.
		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Although modern city life has taken a lot of that away.
unidentified		Yes, it has.
unidentified		And going fast, you know, the animals, they live a slower, more pure existence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How big is your island?
unidentified		It takes about, oh, 15, 20 minutes to drive the length and maybe 10, 12 minutes to drive the width.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not big?
unidentified		No, not too big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And is there a great population there or fairly sparse or what's it like?
unidentified		It's kind of, it's rural, but it's slowly, you know, like everywhere else.
		You know, people are moving to it.
		It seems like wherever you go, there is growth.
		I've been here for almost, I don't know, nine years, and there has been growth here.
		And so, in that sense, that's kind of scary to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a chance that all of a sudden there are going to be covenants and restrictions and incorporations, and pretty soon you won't be able to have your wolves?
unidentified		That's possible.
		I mean, you know, I don't know.
		I just kind of have to kind of trust that it'll work out.
		I wouldn't be on the island if the people here didn't want me here because I couldn't have stayed unless I could have borrowed for my rent for the land.
		I've kind of chosen a very creative, artistic way to live, and there's not a lot of money in that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, there isn't.
		But maybe there is in your book.
		It's a wonderful book.
		How do people get it?
unidentified		Well, let me grab this thing that the Wolf grabbed.
		Little teeth marks.
		They can call my publisher, which is New Sage Press, and that phone number is 503-695-2211.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they can order it directly.
unidentified		Yeah, or they could write New Sage Press, and that's N-E-W, capital S-A-G-E, New Sage Press.
		Right.
		P.O. Box 607 Troutdale, Oregon, 97060.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You better do it again.
unidentified		New Sage Press, P.O. Box, 607, Troutdale, Oregon, 97060.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got it, so if I did, everybody can get it.
unidentified		And if they're interested in the Wolf nonprofit we're trying to put together here, it's pending.
		We haven't done it yet.
		That address is Wolftown, P.O. Box 13115, Burton, B-U-R-T-O-N, Washington, 98013.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your background, Teresa?
unidentified		I'm half Italian.
unidentified		My dad was first-generation Italian in this country, and my mother is mixed-blood Scotch-Irish, Osage Indian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that's some background.
unidentified		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What took you to an island off Washington?
unidentified		I don't know.
		Again, it was this weird synchronicity.
		I was down in Northern California schooling horses.
		That's what I do for a living.
		And I was kind of burned out on the big business aspect of the horse world.
		I wanted to do it more as an art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		And I was really more into it in the personalities and the love of the animals.
		And that partnership.
		The next book I'm working on is called Dancer on the Grass, and it's about the partnership between horses and people.
		But I burned out of that big business thing, and a friend of mine was teaching up here, and she said, I know exactly where you should go.
		And I called a couple people, and they invited me to come live with them, with the wolf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have had horses as well, and love them.
unidentified		That's wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've been down some of the same roads.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to open the phone lines when we come back and let people ask you questions, if that would be all right.
unidentified		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		T Martino, T for Teresa Martino, is my guest.
		Her book, The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness.
		And it's really a good read, folks.
		I'm Art Bell, and from the High Desert, this is the CBC Independent American Network.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In about 30 minutes, Richard Hoagland and company and the lid gets blown off what's been going on in Egypt.
		It is the program you've been waiting for.
		Tomorrow night, David Oates, reversals on Colonel Haynes, the Master of Ceremonies at the Roswell news conference the other day.
		That's the other one you've been waiting for.
		I just can't wait.
		And if you want something that will take you back to the way things ought to be and sort of do a reset button for you, get Teresa's book, The Wolf, The Woman, The Wilderness.
		You can get it by calling area code 503-695-2211.
		503-695-2211.
		Now back to Teresa.
		Teresa, we've got a lot of people who would like to speak to you, so are you ready?
unidentified		Yep, I'm ready.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here we go.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with T. Martino.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hi, how are you?
unidentified		Good, how are you?
		Oh, pretty good.
		My name is Spike.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm on the road here.
		I'm driving a truck, and they've been picking me up on a couple different stations, 1500 out of Minneapolis and 1330 wherever that's at.
		Anyway, I raise wolves as well.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I've been at it since probably 1975.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I also have a female named Mackenzie.
unidentified		Oh, how funny.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I got her when I was a trucking up out of Canada.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Her mother was hit by a truck, and she was probably five, six weeks old.
unidentified		I've had her since.
unidentified		And so she trucks along with me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I do have to say that she's fairly domesticated and acts like a normal canine.
		But I wanted to ask you, have you heard that quote that Chief Dan George said about the wolves and why people are so afraid of them?
		He said, when people don't understand something, they fear it.
		And when they fear something, they tend to want to destroy it.
unidentified		I can remember that quote, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that I kind of wanted to bring that out.
unidentified		It was part of the thing that the people up around Montana and Wyoming have been going at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The fear.
unidentified		I'm not the Blackfeet Nation.
unidentified		I actually brought the wolves out there, and they were very welcoming to the wolves.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You'll find the Indians are very sympathetic towards that cause simply because they figure that the wolf is almost close to God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		I appreciate the call.
		Wolves, though, have been a symbol of fear and even evil for some, haven't they?
unidentified		Yeah, they have.
		I think once humanity decided to domesticate livestock, and once we were more agricultural-based, staying in one place rather than hunting, we tended to look upon the wolf differently.
		But when we were hunting, when people hunted for a living, I think we tended to look at the wolf as our brother and sister and as our teacher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you a meat eater?
unidentified		Yeah, I am.
		I try and eat wild meat, though.
		I'm not real keen on domestic meat, and I don't like the factory farming stuff.
		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Tim Martino.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, am I on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		This is Mike from St. Louis.
		Hi, Mike.
		Hi, Mike.
		First time I've ever called in on a radio program.
		And I'm calling in because in the past I've had kind of a dangerous hobby, you might say.
		I've shut down crack houses and I've caught a rapist or two, that kind of thing.
		I've aided the police as a citizen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a dangerous hobby, aren't you?
unidentified		I'm thinking of moving out into the country.
		And out in the country, I was going to protect myself with a lot of powerful dogs, German Shepherd, Dover, and Pitbulls.
		But would there be any advantage to trying it with wolves?
		No, they're not good guard dogs at all.
		Their tendency would be more to hide.
		Oh, and I guess a hybrid that might take the fear of man away might also make them hide or unreliable or protect, perhaps even attack.
		See, I would rather go after the problem of why a person would be so afraid that they need to have something like that as protection.
		I'd rather go after the problem itself rather than to try and barricade myself in.
		And maybe that's an idealistic way of looking at it because I live on an island where you don't have to lock your doors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I was about to actually make that comment to you, Teresa.
		Unfortunately, in today's world, whether you like it or not, if you're on the mainland, you really have to be security conscious.
		And I don't, it's a shame that it has to be that way, but I own guns and I wouldn't have it any other way.
		I'm much more afraid of the two-legged variety than I am of anything that's out there roaming the desert with four legs.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Teresa Martino.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Hi.
		Hi.
		I'm so glad to get a hold of you.
		Thank you.
		I have a few questions for Teresa.
		Are wolves being reintroduced to the Midwest?
		Yeah, they are.
		The Red Wolf.
		How far down?
		I believe Texas, South Carolina.
		Wow.
		Oh, well.
		I mean, are they around the St. Louis area?
		That I'm not sure.
		I'm not sure of that.
		Also, I was wondering if you come across an animal while you're driving and it's a large type dog or a wolf, how can you tell by visually looking at a distance if it's a wolf or a dog?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can you, Teresa?
unidentified		Well, if you're way up north, they're very hard to spot in the wild, to be perfectly honest with you.
		There's very few people that actually see them in the wild.
		If you are driving and you see an animal that is a hybrid or part-bred animal, it's kind of difficult to tell the percentage unless they're a very high percentage.
		Wolves generally have kind of a loose-legged trot.
		They're generally very slender.
		They have smaller ears and more closely set than sort of a husky or Malamute, smaller than German Shepherd.
		Their tails do not curl at all.
		They have dew claws only on their front paws.
		Their toenails are always black.
		They have very, very long fangs.
		They generally have, even the white ones will have a few black hairs or darker hairs on their saddle area and the base of their tail and the tip of their tail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that sounds quite distinguished.
		Why do we want wolves back in this country, across the South, across the Midwest, in the Northwest?
		Why do we want wolves back?
unidentified		I think it's something that we're missing in our hearts.
		I think we're missing the wolf's howl, and we're missing these wild creatures because they define us.
		They're part of the world.
		If you believe that the world is one, there's something in the wolf that's very valuable to us.
		And the great bear and the eagle and everything else.
		And once they're gone, I think there's some of us, we're going to be diminished too.
		There's something in us that will be gone too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Teresa Martino.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, I'd like to know, I'm Colin from Washington.
		Okay.
		And I'd like to know, would they, I heard they're going to bring wolves in the national parks hooker.
		I'd like to know if they would still bring them.
		They're still going to bring them up here.
		I think they are.
		Yeah, at the Olympics, you mean?
		Yeah, yeah, I think they are.
		I think they decided to pass that.
		You know, when they're going to start bringing them up?
		I don't.
		I don't know.
		Well, I just want to say, how many wolves do you have because I've just been listening from 11 o'clock?
		I have two and a half wolves.
		I have one at the half-bred and two wolves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And she took one wolf back to the wilderness over a period of about a year.
		She reintroduced this wolf named Mackenzie back to the wilderness.
		And she actually went with this wolf day by day by day to reintroduce it to being a wolf.
unidentified		Well, that would be kind of sad for me doing that.
		It was sad for me, too.
		It was sad.
		It's like a family, letting go of a family member.
		Yeah.
		But, you know, it was letting her go into the life that she was meant to live.
		And she was successful in going back to her life.
		And I was able to go up and visit her a couple of times.
		And so that made me more reassured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And she was doing fine.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She made it?
unidentified		Yeah, she did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did she react to you when you saw her again after all that time?
unidentified		Well, the first time, I'm not going to give it away too much because it's in the back, the end of the book.
		But the first time, I didn't think I would see her again.
		And I went up there and was very disappointed.
		And she actually surprised me.
		And that was kind of a very touching moment for me to have had her surprise me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I bet it was.
		First time caller align.
		You're on the air with Teresa Martino.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yes.
		Hi, Art.
		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		Teresa, how are you this evening?
		Yeah, Art.
		It's a pleasure to get through to you.
		I can't believe it.
		I've been listening to you since January.
		There have been many topics that I've really tried to call all night to get through to you and haven't been able to.
		I pulled for a Federal Express between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they don't call themselves Federal Express anymore.
unidentified		FedEx.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		FedEx.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't want to be confused with the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't blame them.
unidentified		I don't blame them a bit.
		I wanted to ask Miss Martinez, and this is really maybe an off-beat question, but I think it's relative to what she is doing and what she's into.
		Since she has spent so much time in the wild and with wild creatures, by the way, how are you this evening?
		Good.
		Do you think that man is of the natural world, or do you think that we are separate from it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good question.
unidentified		It is a good question.
		I think we are absolutely part of the natural world.
		And let me read this to you, because I'm just looking at it.
		It just happened to be in the book.
		Far from the wilderness, or maybe closer than you think, listen to the blood in your veins.
		You belong to the earth.
		You are wild.
		Mackenzie, the gray one, gives you a gift.
		She gives you her name.
		And she asks you, hunting with piercing yellow eyes, do you know your relatives?
		Look for me in the north.
		I still go to the mountains.
		I have family there, and so do we all.
		The wolf people teach us to hunt and care for our kin.
		The singing people guard the game to keep them strong.
		Our teachers and partners, the guides and the guardians, call us.
		We are invited back to Coyote's campfire to belong again, to sit on our mother's lap and be natives of the land.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you think That our instinctual wildness, and we were once certainly wild, manifests itself today.
		It's pretty well suppressed.
		We're civilized, supposedly.
		But there are little feelings of wildness occasionally, and I can only imagine as you went back into the wilderness to spend a year, you really began to get in touch with it.
		What did that feel like?
unidentified		For me, it felt very natural.
		I think our definition of wilderness needs to be redefined.
		Wilderness, a lot of times, equals dangerous and unpredictable.
		And that's not it to me.
		Our wilderness, you know, a wolf that's wild lives for the pack.
		It lives for the good of the pack, for the social group.
		And humanity could, you know, learn a great lesson from looking at the wolves, the way they live.
		Horses live that way, too, in the wild.
		They live for the good of the herd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do.
unidentified		And I think with humanity, if you take a wild animal and you cage it and you domesticate it to a certain extent, it makes it crazy.
		You know what I'm saying?
		If you have a wild animal that's caged and is taken out of its natural environment, it loses some of itself and it can make it mentally unstable.
		And I think that's happened to humanity, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think a good part of humanity is mentally unstable.
		That's a fair comment.
		Wildguard Line, you're on the air with T. Martino.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My name's Scott.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I've not been listening to the program, so I don't know what you're discussing tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in that case, you shouldn't be calling.
		I appreciate your call, sir.
		Thank you.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with T. Martino.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Teresa.
		Hi.
		I live out in the country, and I'm a big dog lover.
		No offense, Art.
		I don't own a dog, and really, I guess, don't need one because I have daily visitation from all the neighbor dogs.
		Oh.
		Including a black lab, a shell, and one of our neighbors who has a husky.
		And we have come to refer to this dog as the wolf dog, especially at night when we're out in the yard sitting many evenings.
		This husky will just appear out of nowhere.
		He'll honor us with his presence for a few minutes.
		And then more often than not, as quickly as he appears, he's gone.
		I have yet to ever hear this dog bark.
		He yelps, and he's quite a howler, too.
		And he will lie on his stomach with his front legs spread apart and leap into the air.
		And what I wonder, Teresa, would it be reasonable to say that of all the dog breeds, maybe a husky would most closely resemble in mannerisms and physical appearance a wolf?
		Resemble in a rough way.
		The mannerisms, I don't think so, because the purebred wolves are extremely shy.
		They really are shy.
		And most northern dogs I've met have not been really that shy.
		But you know, we never see this dog during the daylight.
		It's only at night that he appears.
		Yeah.
		And he appears out of nowhere, and it's almost like he's a stealth dog.
		Uh-huh.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are wolves, Teresa, nocturnal?
unidentified		Yeah, most of the time they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, when you took McKenzie back to the wild, were you, did you basically become nocturnal?
unidentified		I pretty much had to.
		And then, you know, we tried to kind of compromise of going out real early in the morning and then at dusk.
		Sure.
		But, you know, they can get up and hunt anytime, you know, if they get hungry.
		There are some that it just depends on the family group, what they're used to and what they want to do.
		But for the most part, they're quite active at night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies, you're up.
		Call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		Brick, you're not allowed to use your last name on the air.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's about the only rule we have here, so let's try it all over again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your name is Robert, and you're where, Robert?
unidentified		In Houston, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
unidentified		Go ahead.
		The thing is, is that we had, this is back in 1968 to about 1975.
		We had this one highway we called the Highway 6.
		And when you were driving down there towards I-10 West, and you got off the freeway, and you went down this one road, it was like a dark, dark road back in 1968.
		And we were driving, and we came across this one corner that my father was telling me was called the Wolf Corner.
		Well, we stopped.
		He parked his car, and he would show us exactly what was out there.
		And there was everything from about 30 to 35 dead-shot wolves hanging upside down on the side of this one fence.
		And it was dramatic.
		I mean, I just about fainted.
		I couldn't believe that there were so many wolves, and it was like out there in the wilderness, you know, on the side of the city of Houston.
		Well, maybe.
		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Teresa, go ahead.
unidentified		I was going to say, what year was this?
		This is in 1968 until 1975.
		There was a corner, they called it the Wolf Corner.
		And it was out there at Highway 6 and I-10.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Teresa, there was a time in this country when we virtually decided to eliminate wolves.
unidentified		We did successfully, pretty much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were gone?
unidentified		Yeah, we pretty much killed all of them.
		That's why, you know, they're doing the, you know, the return.
		Yeah, to put them back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will they come back, do you think, in large numbers?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or what do you think will happen with this program?
unidentified		Well, the game determines how many there are.
		Wolves are very organized in the way they have, you know, keep their populations.
		If the game animals are few, they don't have very many cubs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, it surely has been a pleasure.
unidentified		Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, your book, The Wolf, the Woman, the Wilderness, is, I didn't even ask you how much it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much is it?
unidentified		It is $14.95.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$14.95.
		Really reasonable, folks.
		Area code 503-695-2211, correct?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Teresa, we will do it again sometime.
		We didn't have enough time.
		I thank you, and good luck with your wolves.
unidentified		Well, thank you, Art.
unidentified		Appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
unidentified		Night, everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Teresa Martino.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The wolf, the woman, the wilderness.
unidentified		Meat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild animals.
		Meat.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
		Don't go anywhere.
		Richard C. coming up.
unidentified		The End Call Art Bell, toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Mark Bell coming up the program that you have been bugging me for.
		Those of you who have wanted to know with the not-so-subtle hints what's been going on in Egypt are about to find out.
		I would like to address the audience that's coming along with me to Egypt in October.
		Several of you have called the agency and said, well, is this going to mean that we can't go to Giza?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
		All of you are going to get to go.
		Now, whether I'm going to be able to get off the ship at Alexandria after tonight's program is another question.
		Hopefully, the answer is yes.
		Possibly, the answer is no.
		That gives you some idea of what you're about to hear or the gravity of it.
		Richard C. Hoagland and his agent provocateur, that's the word I'll use, just back from Egypt literally hours ago with proof in hand, and we're going to tell you all about it coming up in a moment.
		So buckle in, everybody.
		Telemart Bell told you to call.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		Now, Angstrom Science Award winner, investigator, science advisor to Walter Cronkite, and one-time science advisor to NASA.
		As a matter of fact, when you enter NASA grounds now in Houston, you will see a large statue erected to Richard C. Hoagland.
		He's my guest.
		Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good morning.
		Richard, we're going to talk about Egypt tonight.
		This is something that you and I have been discussing privately for, I don't know, what, a couple of months now?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At least a couple of months.
		Hopefully we're going to pull some very major threads together and lay out this tapestry that we've been carefully weaving over, in fact, the last several years.
		Tonight is going to be one for the books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much trouble are we going to be in when it's over?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, given that we're opening a system that has been closed and kept secretive by a tiny handful of people, very similar to other institutions we've talked about, I don't think we're going to be in much trouble at all because before our representative left Cairo this morning,
		he provided the evidence that we're going to provide to America tonight to key Egyptian officials, to the editor, the assistant managing editor of one of the major Cairo newspapers, and to a group of independent archaeologists who are not part of the in-crowd that has been controlling access and discussions on the plateau.
		So what we're doing tonight is, in essence, simultaneously launching the American side of a major investigation to open up the secrets at Giza that have been held by a few for far too long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, this is going to create a definite storm.
		And what I'm hoping, as you know, I'm going in October, I'm hoping the storm plays itself out before October and that the skies clear over Giza for me.
		I guess that would be the best way to put it.
		You tell me when you want to bring Larry on.
unidentified		Okay.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me set the stage here.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are a couple of announcements that I want to make before.
		First of all, let me give an update for all those who are following the Pathfinder story.
		Yes, only tonight, 36 hours after the mid-course correction, the last mid-course correction of this little spacecraft a few million miles away from Mars, many, many millions of miles from Earth, NASA finally, on its websites all over the world, got around to posting the results of this mid-course burn yesterday morning.
		And the time lag is curious because all they've done on the website is to say, we've done it.
		And they list the instantaneous, in essence, tracking data, Which indicates that their maneuver was within 4% in one direction and 1% in another.
		And that data would have been achieved literally within an hour or so after the burn was made and the spacecraft turned around and recontacted the Earth.
		So the gap of 36 hours in putting this on the website is very, very curious.
		Now, in part, this could be explained by everyone being diverted by the mere accident and drama going on upstairs.
		But even so, we're talking about a dedicated group of engineers who are working Pathfinder as their job.
		And I am a little bit baffled as to the reason for the gap.
		If things progress as advertised now, they are claiming, and they actually have the map up on the website showing the target coordinate at 19.5 degrees and the center of the new ellipse from the tracking data of their last mid-course at 19.45 degrees.
		And they say they are on course to a morning landing at about 10 o'clock Pacific time on Mars on July 4th.
		Now, as you know, last week I very strongly indicated that we don't think that's going to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That they're going to somehow have an interesting set of events intervene, which will delay the landing to July 20th.
		And it may or may not be at their advertised landing site.
		In fact, it could well be at Sidonia.
		There is a very important gap now between what NASA is stating and what we are predicting.
		And I don't want to be shy about this.
		There is a definite divergence here of two views of reality.
		One curious footnote, NASA has posted on its website an advertisement for the little model that Mattel has made of the lander, the Pathfinder lander, the tetrahedral spacecraft, and the mini rover.
		And if you go to your website or our website, you will see that Keith has linked to JPL, to Caltech, to the full-page press release that JPL wrote announcing the availability of this Mattel toy commemorating Sojourner and the Pathfinder lander.
		So it's all kind of in limbo, and I don't know where we're going other than we have predictions firmly on the board, and we'll just have to see what happens as the clock runs out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we can all get our own little Pathfinder.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And it's made of metal and it's got little reticulated wheels and it's supposed to be a neat little thing.
		And who knows why anyone would want one unless something really remarkable is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll leave that one, though, for the next few days.
		We'll just have to wait and see.
		Is there any update on Mir?
		Just before we launched Egypt here, is there any update on Mir that you know of?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the interesting thing about the Mir story is that it is now developing that they're going to launch a Progress rocket probably in the next week or so to bring up supplies.
		And in essence, what they're discussing is because when the Progress supply rocket or capsule, whatever you want to term this, ran into them yesterday, when they lost control of it for reasons that are totally unclear at this point,
		and it literally put a hole in the hull of the Spectre module, which was Mike Fole's module with all his bioengineering and medical experiments, where he actually lived, and he had his exercise gear, and his clothes, and his toothbrush, and his toothpaste.
		It was so interesting to hear him asking for five tubes of toothpaste to be sent up on the resupply rocket this morning.
		Their plan is now to basically send them a bunch of new equipment, including jumper cables.
		And they're planning to string power cables, in essence, you know, super long jumper cables, from the solar panels that are still functioning on the outside of that module, either outside by doing an EVA, a spacewalk, along the hull to the batteries inside in the part of the station that's still functioning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or an internal spacewalk.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Or an internal.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What's interesting to me is, unlike the American sophistication where when you dock, you have little power latches that automatically heat and nest.
unidentified		Sure.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		They apparently, when they dock these things, the Russian technology is so simple that they literally had strung wires through the airlock.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And when they had to close the doors to keep air from rushing out, they literally cut the cables in two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's primitive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's primitive.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But it works.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the Russian philosophy in space has always been, keep it simple, stupid.
		And that's why I think these guys are still alive.
		Again, testimony to a Russian philosophy of build it big, build it heavy, you know, build it well, and it will stand even a collision.
		The interesting thing to me is, as I said last night, this drama would play itself out over the next several days or maybe weeks.
		And now it looks like that the spacewalk is going to take place right across the 20th of July.
		In which case, no space reporter worth his salt is going to be caring at all what happens on Mars or if a spacecraft disappears or anything.
		But we'll be focused on Mir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, the man, the drama.
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Again, a remarkable set of coincidences.
		Which segues to my third announcement tonight.
		Remember the other night that I hinted that we were considering taking the Enterprise team and going to Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Doing a major presentation in downtown Phoenix in the heart of this interesting place that apparently has connections to the moon, to Mars, to Egypt, and to Pathfinder.
		Well, we have now reached the point where I can announce that we are going to be doing this.
		It's going to be called The Monuments of Mars, a Phoenix Connection, question mark.
		And joining me as part of a rather interesting evening on the 14th of July, which is the anniversary of the first U.S. Mars flyby, Mariner 4, back in 1965.
		In fact, it was my first project that I conducted at a private museum, the Museum of Science at Springfield, with NASA.
		We had, you know, open radio lines.
		We did lasers across the valley.
		We had Alan Hynek on as one of our guests that night.
		It was my first.
		I was 19.
		Shivering, you know, shaking in the knees.
		We put all this thing together.
		Well, on that anniversary, it turns out, coincidentally, and we really didn't plan this, we're going to, in Phoenix, in the, potentially, tentatively, the Phoenix Civic Center itself.
		We're booking the major room, and we haven't quite finished the details, so I can't announce firmly that that is a done deal.
		But we're going to be there all evening, and the last two hours of this presentation, which will connect the face on Mars and Sidonia, the pyramids of Egypt, the hyperdimensional physics, which of course is codified in sacred geometry,
		the entire NASA and Russian space program, Masonic knowledge, the founding of Phoenix, which as you know we're now zeroing in on, including the role of Ulysses S. Grant and others, the lights over Phoenix seen on March 13th, and a lot more, including now a presentation by our guest of the evening here on the Arpell Show.
		We're going to lay this all out for an audience live in Phoenix.
		And for the last two hours of this evening and the first two hours of your show, you are going to join us, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to describe how?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Electronically.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		We tried to get him out of Prump, folks, and he would not budge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, and that is quite an announcement.
		Yeah, we'll be there electronically.
		I think it's my best place, Richard.
		I would love to come down, but I am best suited to be here and to interface between what you're doing and the audience.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what we're going to be able to do is an electronic Donahue kind of thing because through your good offices, we can have the country participate and ask questions of our panelists.
		We can, in turn, have reaction from the floor of people who've seen the whole data presentation so that they can get, you know, your audience, your radio audience, get a feel for what people are thinking and feeling and reacting to what we're going to lay out for them.
		And we're going to also have some other surprises.
		For instance, I have figured out that because of the brilliance of Scotty Rowland, Keith Rowland, and this device called the webcam, we can have you in Phoenix as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We're going to electronically project up on two huge screens Art Bell Studio in color, live from Perump.
		And side by side, as a split screen, we're going to be rotating our TV cameras because we're going to be filming and videoing the whole thing.
		Because afterwards, we're going to make a video.
		And for everyone who can't be in Phoenix, who would like to be in Phoenix, we'll make the video available through our show after the fact, probably a couple of weeks after the fact, if we do our homework correctly and do the editing.
		So you can see the whole thing in sequence and see Art's participation and what we've laid out and the data and all the connections that we're in the process of now busily figuring out.
		And we've got some really neat folks in Phoenix who are finding some extraordinary connections and linkages, including satellite photography now, strange things going on in the hinterlands around Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I add, Richard, I have a very reliable report that in Las Vegas, just this last Monday, they had a large boomerang-shaped thing that was in the sky for quite some time.
		I've got reports from dispatchers here.
		It's not quite a Phoenix, but it's pretty close, Richard, over Las Vegas.
		I don't know if you'd heard about that or not.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I had heard about that, yes.
		Yes.
		And, you know, again, there's something going on.
		I don't know what it is.
		I don't know who's doing it, but something is building, and it's building, I believe, toward a crescendo on July 20th.
		Let me give people an information number to call.
		We can't formally announce ticket sales tonight because, as I said, there's a couple of sales left to be done.
		But if you want to get on a list to be called back, if you want to participate in this, if you want to drive over to Phoenix, I would recommend that you call these folks very early because the seats will go fast.
		So the information line to call is area code 602-944-2434.
		That's 602-944-2434.
		And let me tell you who's going to be on the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Jim DeLatoso.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Jim will be there.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Who is the computer expert who has done the 3D analysis of the Phoenix lights and who I've known for years and who is a consummate professional.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Frances Barwood, who is the Phoenix City Councilwoman who basically broke this and forced them politically to finally address the constituents' questions as to what happened in March over downtown Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me stop you there for one second and say I've received some amount of confirmation that Senator McCain is beginning to call for an investigation.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Apparently he sent a very strong letter to the Air Force saying you will over my dead bodies throw my second letter in the circular file.
		Now I cannot promise that Senator McCain will join us, but I'm going to give it the old college try.
		So I'm announcing that as a kind of a wildcard thing tonight.
		I'd like to try to get him there.
		Frances says that she will ask, and who knows, he might show up.
		Ken Johnston, senior, will be with us.
		Ken, of course, is a NASA veteran test astronaut with over 3,000 hours in the lunar module, taught Buzz and Neil everything they know, and has also the expertise of being a 32nd degree mason.
		And we're finding such stunning Masonic correlations between Phoenix, the program, the NASA program we've been laying out, Egypt and the administration's of past years' efforts to incorporate Phoenix in a very special way that we felt He would be important to have on the program.
		And finally, a former NSA data analysis, National Security Agency, has a lot of people who do nothing but data analysis.
		We have the good services of one of those who is in Phoenix, lives in Phoenix, runs a company called Historical Data Retrieval, and who is avidly now involved in digging up all of the arcane history that we can find on this very interesting town.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there.
		We'll be right back.
		And when we get back, folks, we're going to be talking about Egypt.
		So buckle down.
unidentified		I feel every moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trust me, it will take your breath away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		The talk station, AM 1500 KSTP.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, top of the morning, everybody.
unidentified		Anybody could be there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Richard C. Hoagland and Company, Agent Provocateur, who just got back from Egypt.
		And in a moment, that's what we're going to launch.
		So get ready.
		That's 888-G-O-L-B-K-R-C.
		All right, from Carol in Mesa, Arizona, and I don't want to dwell on this because as Richard has told you, there's going to be a big confab in Phoenix.
		But according to Carol in Phoenix, yes, Senator McCain is indeed calling for an investigation with regard to what occurred above the city of Phoenix on March 13th.
		She continues that one of KFYI's daytime talk show hosts has been ridiculing people about all of this, including Jim Delatoso, and calling people nitwits and so forth, and calling for people in Phoenix to get their feet back on the ground.
		Interesting, and I wonder how he imagines that this incident did not occur, and I wonder why whoever it is thinks that people who want to know what's going on are nitwits.
		That's a word that I probably would not choose to use with regard to those who want investigation of what occurred over Phoenix, or for that matter, what occurred over the skies recently of an area right next to me, Las Vegas.
		As a matter of fact, we had Mr. De La Toso who's been on CNN repeatedly on this program, along with an Arizona MUFON member, and I rather thought the Arizona MUFON member did not much have his act together in trying to challenge Mr. Deletoso, but that's another story.
		Richard?
		Yes, sir.
		Egypt.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things we're going to do this evening in Phoenix in July 14th is to have some surprises.
		And one of the surprises is a gentleman I'm about to introduce, because this is a moving story.
		It has many different venues going simultaneously, many different parts of the puzzle.
		And they all apparently are now converging on this midsummer July 20th date.
		So let me set the stage here, all right?
		The gentleman I'm going to introduce is named Larry Hunter.
		I met Larry through a very good friend of mine in Los Angeles a couple of years ago when I was in town speaking, and my friends had asked me if I would meet a rather interesting and unusual inventor who had predicated some of his inventions,
		including a key solar collector concept, around the pyramid geometry and architecture of the plateau and the designs of Pisa.
		And I said, okay, Randy, that's his name and my friend's name.
		I said, bring him on.
		Now, it was a very busy schedule, and we wound up meeting at a little coffee shop for lunch.
		And what struck me was not only was Larry interesting as a person and obviously had some background and some depth and knew what he was talking about, at least in my perspective, but I also instantly realized that not one person in 100 would get what Larry was trying to do.
		And that really made him a kindred soul.
		So we hit it off right away.
		And one of the things he did at lunch was to fill the table with rocks.
		Because as part of his engineering and his due diligence on the solar power collector concept, he also had, it turned out, spent many, many, many years going to and from Egypt and doing site surveys for his other passion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he was gleaning information from Egypt to use in his invention.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		But simultaneously, he was looking into the archaeology and to get beneath the myths of current contemporaneous archaeology, which says that Egypt, you know, the pyramids were built in the last 5,000 years and etc., etc., etc., that they were basically huge monuments to ego-mad, you know, idiots called pharaohs.
		And he filled this lunch table between the plates and the cups and the saucers and whatever with rocks from the desert, not only of the plateau, but around the plateau.
		And as the wakress kept coming and the rest of our party kept looking, he and I carried on this interesting conversation, moving plates aside and moving rocks aside and, you know, putting rocks here and putting rocks there and doing basically stellar cartography on the ground, mirroring what is apparent in the sky over ancient Egypt, that he independently has been looking at quietly long before Baval got interested in the theme.
		So that really got me intrigued with who this individual, Larry Hunter, was.
		Besides, I also then found out that Larry Hunter loves cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good for him.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Larry Hunter lives with a number of cats.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I think, Art, if you ask him really kindly, we can get him to proffer one of his cats into the cat box.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The cat box is an area of the website where we put cat pictures.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		One of the links here is that us cat people seem to be more than casually interested in Egypt.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		I just throw that out there for whatever it's worth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The audience needs to understand that you and I have been sitting on information for a couple of months now that we could not quite confirm sufficiently to go public with it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what Larry has done is to give us, bring back, as a matter of fact, he's just back from Egypt today, actually yesterday now, with the evidence that is going to allow us to go public with what you're about to hear.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So why don't we bring him on and then I'll kind of go through the rest of the story.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I won't do what I normally do, is make everybody wait till the very, very end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Larry, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Larry, you're down in Los Angeles now, correct?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When did you get back from Egypt?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		11.30.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		My plane touched onto the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		11.30, this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		11 o'clock, and I was out of customs by 11.30.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was this morning.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or yesterday morning, now?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The 26th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		All right.
		Well, there he is, Richard, fresh back from Egypt.
		It's up to you.
		What did he bring?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what Larry has brought, and I don't want to leap to the end of the story, but I want him to tell you what he's got.
		He has hard evidence in the form of actual samples from inside the Great Pyramid testifying to an unknown and probably, and I'm going to use this term, probably illegal excavation going on inside the Great Pyramid even now.
		He has brought back video, a, what is it, about an hour, hour and 20-minute interview?
		Yeah.
		With a key person who has witnessed some of these remarkable events.
		The interview is all in Arabic, and we're going to have to have it translated.
		And we're not going to reveal the name of the interviewee for obvious reasons because he is still in Egypt, and we want to protect his safety.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He would be in immediate danger.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He has been threatened.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it was only with great skill that Larry, with the aid of a friend or two in Egypt, was able to convince him, over the protestations of his own family, to eventually describe what occurred and the threats that he is under and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let us go back to what we thought we knew a couple of months ago, Richard, and let's tell people what it is, just flat out.
		Why don't you tell them?
		In other words, there have been parties.
		There have been people that have gone to Egypt, organizations, have taken photographs, done x-ray work, have done a lot of groundwork, and inevitably, after they go over there and do the groundwork, they're kicked out.
		Zahi, Hawass, and company kick them out, and then there has been a suspicion that Zahi proceeds to do his own excavation.
		He lets them do the groundwork, spend the money, and then takes over and goes for the glory.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is a pattern that I personally have observed with people that I know, like Lambert Dolphin and SRI, going back to the early 70s, to 1973, and in the later 70s, 78.
		More recently in the early 80s, and Larry, interrupt me at any time when I make him a statement here.
		There were French teams, there were Japanese teams brought in to use gravimeters, which are devices that are very sensitive to minute variations in gravity, to find secret chambers inside.
		And as soon as they found something, they were given the heave-ho.
		There were rumors of radioactive sand being found in one of those chambers of that equipment.
		But never.
		Say again, Larry?
		The ones that were being bored on the west walls coming in the passages to the Queen Chamber.
		There's that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Radioactive?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Radioactive sand.
		And they were stopped at that moment, or supposedly stopped.
		But there was a gentleman in Switzerland that sort of said that that was filmed, and there were a lot of celestial drawings on the walls, and that they did indeed see what was in those rooms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and then there's...
		Then there is this.
		You have told us of this, Richard.
		Please refresh everybody's memory.
		There is a long, very narrow tunnel which a robot was sent up.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In 1991.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In 1991.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Rudolf Gentenbring.
		Oh, 93, wasn't it, Richard?
		No, it was 91.
		I thought it was 91.
		93, April.
		93.
		You're right, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The robot was sent up.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Rudolf Gentenbrink, who was a German engineer operating under the German Archaeological Institute with licenses from Dr. Hawass and supposedly the Antiquities Council, came to Egypt to the pyramid ostensibly to use this robot to clean the shafts,
		the air shafts, leading from the king's chamber at a 45-degree angle, north and south, out to the exterior of the pyramid.
		In fact, it now turns out from extensive documentation that has been provided to me by, among other people, Robert Baval, that what Gandenbrink all along was wanting to do and apparently elicited the cooperation of Dr. Hawass in doing was to send his little robot up the slanted shaft below the king's chamber from the queen's chamber,
		the shaft that I've called the ISIS shaft or the Sirius shaft and is mentioned prominently in Baval's book, The Orion Mystery.
		At about, is it 180 feet, Larry, up that shaft?
		A little further than that.
		Maybe 188.
		Genton Brink's little robot with a closed-circuit TV camera and a laser on it encountered an end of the passage.
		And this four, I'm sorry, eight-inch square passage where obviously no human being could ever get.
		And at the end of this passage, 188 feet up this slanted shaft, there was a door, or a portcullis, which is the technical term, on which there were apparently affixed two copper handles, which were intensely corroded in the light of the robot and the colored TV camera.
		And this was all shown on national television, shown on the BBC, and it was shown on A ⁇ E here.
		And, you know, we have the tapes.
		No sooner had Jennin Brink found the door, but on the TV view, on the lower right-hand portion, you could see there was a little crack.
		And the door was meant to be open.
		In fact, the two little handles were a device designed to prevent the door from being raised fully back.
unidentified		Exactly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's what I was trying to say, is it was a lock hinge.
		That's right.
		It looked like a lock hinge.
		And when the door would come down, you could never raise it fully back up because those would keep it by hitting on the top of the shaft from being raised fully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Looks like a puzzle.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It's a puzzle.
		Now, the little crack at the bottom right-hand corner was big enough to show that the laser, when they focused the beam on the dark crack, disappeared.
		There was no facing behind it, meaning it was going into empty space, an unknown room or chamber or crevice or declavity or something behind the little eight-inch square door.
unidentified		Gotcha.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, as soon as I heard this, and this was from, you know, back in 93, I said to myself, aha, because it confirmed in my mind my own model, which is that the Great Pyramid is not a tomb, it's a time capsule.
		And how do you protect an extraordinarily important find in the middle of 6.5 million tons of limestone piled up in a cone shape, which has been ravaged by, you know, imams and Englishmen and Frenchmen and Japanese and American tourists and graffitiized and attacked by every possible culture to try to get at the treasure in the pyramid.
		Answer, you put the real prize deep inside up a tiny narrow shaft that no human being could ever get into until the culture behind that human being develops science and technology and engineering and robots.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are still aspects of this tunnel, though, that we do not understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, why would there be a door that a human could not get to, that even if you could get to, could not be opened?
unidentified		Star shaft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's star shafts.
unidentified		Star shafts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean by that, please?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the room leading off Gantebrain, through Robert Boval, at least in his work, demonstrated the math that collated this particular shaft off the Queen's Chamber to point directly to Cirrus as it would cross the noon meridian on the south side of the Great Pyramid or the gateway into the Orion constellation.
		Let me stop you there, Larry.
		In the Egyptian text, there is a profound connection over and over again between the pharaonic Egyptian model, the guy at the top of the pyramid, the Pharaoh, and the stars of the Orion complex.
		And Sirius, as Isis, the chief consort of Osiris, Orion, the Pharaoh in the sky, was a key component of this mythology.
		And so what Baval has been looking at for many years, and Bodaway and Virginia Trimble began looking at years before, back in 1965, was that the alignment of these shafts as they strike up toward the exterior of the pyramid from deep inside, in fact, was not at random.
		That these shafts aimed at key stars in the belt of Orion, and the lower shaft, the one coming up from the Queen's Chamber, was suspected to be aimed towards Sirius.
		As Sirius would rise and set, the pyramid would aim almost like a rifle sight.
		Exactly.
		And if the shaft were open, you could stand at the bottom and look up the shaft and see Sirius.
		But of course, it's not open.
		There's, what, maybe 100, 200 feet of solid limestone masonry between the end of that shaft, that little door, and the exterior of the pyramid.
		And the bottom of the shaft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How big is that shaft?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Eight inches square.
unidentified		Eight inches.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Less than a foot square.
		So it's a sighting device.
		It's an alignment device.
		It's to get you to think connection.
		Connection of pyramid to Sirius.
		It could be the rock device, too, for sending the soul at the speed of light, which matter can't travel at.
		There's a lot to this that we really don't understand yet, but in the probabilities, I like to open up new probabilities in the understanding of things that we're just growing into.
		The point is that the alignment appears to be aimed towards Sirius.
		That's why I call it the ISIS shaft and the ISIS chamber.
		What's behind the door?
		You know, Monty Hall, where are you when you meet him?
		Well, behind that little door, that little portcullis, I believe, and people as eminent as I.E.S. Edwards, who was the chief of the Egyptian, what would you call it, Larry?
		Keeper of Antiquities of the Egyptian room of the British Museum.
		When the Gantenbring video was shown to him and he was asked on Channel 4, which is one of the British TV channels, what do you think is behind the door, Dr. Edwards?
		In a rare burst of speculation for someone as conservative as those guys, he said, well, maybe a pharaonic figure, a seated statue of the Pharaoh, gazing toward Orion or Sirius, holding an arm.
		We will get back to that in a minute.
		So in 1993, we have this brilliant German engineer builds a robot, gets into, with the permission of Hawass, that shaft, sends a robot up the shaft, finds a door, finds a crack under it, then asks Hawass, okay, let me put a fiber optics probe on my camera and look behind the door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And Hawass kicks him out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Naturally.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		Hawass fled the country during that time, Richard.
		Okay.
		He was under a 21 felony count by Mohamed Bucker, who was then the chairman of antiquities, having replaced the one that had just died, a site Talciq.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Felony counts for what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		For not using the system of when they opened up the museums to go inside, they were supposed to have guards and police escorting them in, and the documentation and the paperwork that was associated with it was skim, if at all.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And he left the country for several months without a passport or a visa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, he had been not following procedure, and in Egypt, with regard to antiquities, they don't take that lightly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, in this case, the chairman of antiquities launched an investigation into his activity and his activities.
		Yes, and it was during this time that Ganterbrink released this information to the world.
		Through the law.
		Right.
		Well, it was sort of that and through Reuters, I think.
		Okay?
		But the Egyptians immediately silenced the story.
		But if you'll go back and look, secret chamber in the bottom of the pyramid, and then this was something that was up in the queen's chamber, so it'll give you a feeling of what Vantabrink may know, but has been silenced about telling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you two.
		Hold on.
		And, folks, we have only just begun.
		You have not heard the really incredible part yet.
		Stay right where you are.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		At 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
		Good morning.
		Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
		With him, Larry Hunter.
		The information you're about to hear is going to blow you away.
unidentified		It's nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so we've got this tunnel.
		We've got a door at the end.
		We've got a seemingly impossible puzzle, an area that no human being can get to.
		Zahi Hawass would not allow the laser look-see through this little tiny crack.
		Zahi, according to our guest Larry Hunter, was under indictment himself.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Under investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For some, how many felony counts?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There were about 21 different items that Mohamed Bucker had against him.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This was in the spring of 93.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And then after those came down, then the Minister of Culture, Farouk Qazni, started to investigate the Chairman of Antiquities, Mohamed Bucker, for his activities investigating Hawash and was soon removed from office.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And then a new one came in, a Dr. Abdulhalim Nor al-Deen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Hawas was in a better land just without the passport and the visa.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And then about the time of the August timeframe, he was brought back by the American embassy and put back in his job as the director of the Pyramid Plateau.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		By the U.S. Embassy.
		This is very important.
		The U.S. intervened and got Hawass reinstated in that key position.
		This will feed into the story later in the morning in terms of Larry's interesting run-in with the U.S. Embassy on this latest trip.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the U.S. intervened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hawass was put back in place, and the practice continued of allowing organizations and people to come in and do research, and then suddenly they were booted out, and Hawass would then proceed with the investigation on his own.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But what you're missing is that Hawass has known about these things for years before.
		His attempts to get Gantabrink in there to put ventilation for the pyramid was, in my opinion, a front because he installed a very, looks like cheap fan and built a very multi-million dollar robot.
		And what was the objective?
		if it was to keep the pyramid cooler today when you go in there that fan seems to have blocked all airflow so hot that when you're in there it's almost like a sauna sweat profusely and it gets It gets all over the video cameras, and you have to take them away from your face because the video is sensitive to water.
		And I personally have experienced the high, high increase in the temperatures in that pyramid so much so that when you come out, you're soaking wet.
		When we were trying to think of someone who could Be a representative of Enterprise, this very broad investigation into connections between Egypt, Mars, NASA, and now ultimately Phoenix.
		Larry came to mind because of his unique background.
		So I think what we need to do is to have Larry tell you what he's been doing in general terms for about 18 years and what other information he has developed separately regarding what is in the pyramid that Hawas could have known about and had been trying to use other mechanisms to get to other than those that were known by other people in Egypt.
unidentified		Correct.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Larry?
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been on this for about 18 years.
		I originally went to Egypt in 1979 in the summer solstice.
		And it was during that time that I was allowed to go down into the subterranean chambers of the Great Pyramid Area, which was closed to the public.
		And I crawled out to the end of the dead end passage about 52 feet back in, of which there is no exit.
		You just go out and come back.
		But while I was out there, I was hearing a lot of voices and people and couldn't understand where they were coming from, at least down in the bottom at the very end of what was supposed to be solid rock by any books that I had ever read.
		Well, I could hear, there was a pattern to the noise, that it would get louder and louder and louder, and then I would hear the coffer in the king's chamber with a guide.
		You know, when you take these tours, he says, this is the coffer of the king, and then he hits it with his hand, and you can hear the bell tone sound of the coffer.
		It's a unique signature of that object in the king's room, or, quote, king's room.
		So I knew that this room was connected at least through the unknown parts of the pyramid because that sound was coming directly to me.
		And this happened in 1979, and I was at a loss to explain any of this, but I know my experience.
		And I was down there for several hours, and in the process of that, I had the watch with phosphorus on it.
		And I was curious how long I had been down, and I didn't have a light with me.
		I was actually in the dark the whole time.
		This is that I looked at my watch, and I was totally surprised to find the phosphorus glowing brighter than if I had just put a very bright light on it and then taken it away.
		It was that fresh.
		In my experience with phosphorus, when you hit it in light and take it into a dark room, it diminishes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This was quite the opposite.
		There were several other things that occurred in there, but that was my first experience with what I had labeled a secret room.
		And this room, we can only be described via the experiences of the modern village pyramid workers.
		And I want to coin this term because it's the pseudonym that I would like to use to protect all of the people in Egypt that are these modern village pyramid workers from any backlash of them having revealed to me their secrets concerning the subjects that I was very interested in.
		Because they're not allowed to talk through me.
		And if I just use the term modern village pyramid worker, you can get the feel that even in the time of Pharaoh, he had his village workers that did the work.
		They don't get much credit other than they always live there.
		And no different today is that there is a village at the base of the pyramid called Naslud el-Saman, which has just such workers.
		Any maintenance that goes on, they're brought in, ironwork, etc., all the way from the taxi drivers, the horses, the camels, and any others that may do the business of the pyramid for the modern tourists coming in and or doctors from around the world to do their research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they gave you testimony, and we don't want to get anybody killed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Well, I would use the term killed in this sense because Egypt is really, really a very safe country.
		I've been going in and out of there for 18 years, and I feel that it really is the safest place on earth.
		So I don't want to get any of your listeners, and even you at the outset, whenever you're, I don't know if I can go there, there's nothing that would keep you from going there and not to be afraid because Egypt does have a real nice system of police networks that the tourist is the most protected source for that country, if you know what I mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know what you mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, the gravity of what we're about to tell people of what's going on is going to brings the pressure on the village worker, of which Hawas and his efforts have tried to starve this village, keep these people from working.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And if you really got down in it and we had the time, I would give you a cute little story of the economics involved with the plateau and the amounts of money that tourists are charged and how the people are trying to survive.
		And in all amongst this, where we hear the latest stories of the camel people costing so much to clean the plateau, about $35,000 a year for 50 people to clean up the stool of the horses and the camels.
		No toilets, Richard, are available to you when you go there on the plateau.
		That's where I want to warn you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand they're banning camels in the area now, too.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but that's in a legal format right now.
		And my objective is to put them all back to work running a program that I'm developing now, which is to give them the access to the outer desert regions, of which are very important to the whole way of this.
		It's about an eight-mile by eight-mile by six and a half mile region, which will encompass the whole Orion constellation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, gentlemen, look, we've got to get to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's tell them what's happening.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, in 1996, in the fall of 96, you and I and our listening audience became aware that there were potential links between the NASA inquiry I have been conducting relating to the moon and Mars and the fact that the emblem,
		the central emblem of the Apollo program, is the central figure, the giant of the Egyptian cosmology, i.e.
		Osiris, i.e.
		Orion, i.e.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apollo.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the Apollo patch itself, the insignia on that patch, was Orion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, bend down this road, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's get to it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Furthermore, a key Egyptian, A gentleman named Farouk El-Baz turned out to not only have played a key role in the NASA Apollo program, but then went back to Egypt and served as a science advisor to then President Anwar Sadat.
		Anwar Sadat.
		And his brother now is some high minister of the President of Egypt.
		Hazi Mubarak.
		So the Elbaz family is extremely well connected.
		And as you know, we discovered that Elbaz himself, when he came to the United States from Egypt by way of Germany, was directed to be hired by none other than the brother of Richard Milhouse Nixon by NASA to pick out the Apollo landing sites.
		So there's an extraordinary linkage currently mysterious between NASA, the moon, Mars, and ancient Egypt.
		So we used our computer, we used this extraordinary program, Redshift, which you now have, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And we laid out a projection of when maybe someone would go beyond Gentenbrink's door and attempt to enter that so-called secret chamber, the ISIS chamber that I am projecting is behind the door.
		And that room is two meters by a meter and a half, Richard.
		Well, that's according to information that you developed independently.
		And we will get to that in a second, all right?
		So in the fall of 96, I'm sitting literally in Ken Johnson's driveway at 3 o'clock in the morning in, I believe, September.
		And I'm using this portable laptop, and I'm running the calculations for when they, whoever they are, Awas, El Baz, and company, would probably attempt to go through that door with an optical probe.
		And I ran several dates, and the date that I picked, and I came on your design.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, correct.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There were two other dates that I did not announce, where the stellar configuration matched exactly this cartography, which would also have been propitious in the mythology.
		Those I did not reveal.
		One was November 8th, and there was a third one, which I'm not going to talk about for a second here.
		I found Larry a willing observer.
		We put him on an airplane.
		I sent him as part of the Enterprise mission to go and, as part of his own research, take some time out and hang out and talk with his colleagues and his sources and his contacts, take video, and just watch and see what happened on December 5th.
		And this is what he found.
unidentified		Larry?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I was talking to some of the security people, and this is around the 3rd of December leading up to the 5th activity that Richard just referred to.
		And I found out that on October, about two months ago, as I was put by the security, that Farouk Elvaz and a couple of English-speaking people with a suitcase came into the pyramid early in the morning and closed the Queen Chamber for three and a half hours.
		And then there were reports of a guard that's no longer there because Dr. Hawass had had him removed.
		And in that process, he retired after, I guess, about 50 years of working with him.
		And his retirement salary of 150 Egyptian pounds, which is about $150, was put to condition that if he ever talked, that he would lose this.
		And even the revealing of this is a lot of information that they can track right back to him.
		But I can tell you that if anything happens to that guard by what we're doing now, that if he loses a $50 a month pension, that we can well take care of him for what he's done as far as trusting us to take care of him.
		All right, so that's something that if the listeners are listening, that we promise to take care of the people that are damaged through the process of this because I have had others that have helped me that have lost their jobs, and I have tried to financially give them support in the time that this is all affecting them directly in that village.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, what information did he reveal that would cause him to lose his retirement?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, his was that he actually saw the individuals in there on that day.
		And then the things that he saw were that these people opened up a suitcase and took out two objects that were square, rectangular objects that looked like rocks, but could have been the computer for one side and the robot for the other, because we don't know other than he was escorted out at that moment.
		So whatever they did inside, no one knows, or we can't find anyone there, but we can peg that they were there and the guard that was there watching them, because he's the one that opened the door to let them go in, was removed from the site of what they were doing, of which really violated the guard being present rules that's supposed to be there.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Now this is what's critical, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, with the cooperation of Zahi.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now Larry comes back.
		How long were you there?
		10 days for the December trip?
		Yeah, approximately that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Recalling that Zahi was restored by American authorities.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That was back in 93.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In the fall of 93.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, in a way, he's our guy from that point.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So Larry comes back and he says, sorry, Dick, no cigar.
		Nothing unusual happened on December 5th.
		It was not a Zed.
		It was October 20th.
		It was October 20th between 9.30 and noon.
		All right?
		So I didn't, I had never told Larry that I had two other dates.
		The other date, and I again looked at the computer tonight just to refresh my memory, the dates and the times that this guard reported correspond exactly to the stellar cartography for the opening of that chamber or looking into it in October, October 20th, between 9.30 and noon Cairo time.
		Richard, a piece that intrigues me is that they already know what's on the other side.
		The activity to me of Mr. Elbaz seems that he was either activating tonal or doing something in the way that was just not to fulfill Ganterbreak.
		Because to me, Hawaz already knew of the room down in the bottom and how it goes up over 250 feet.
		They had already seen on the other side.
		But this was the game that to me is being played by Hawaii to milk the public and all these little things to get the hype up, but let them only see a little bit and then keep going and going and going into it.
		All right, let me have you pause there.
		When Larry came back and reported this to me, my first question, as it would have been yours, Art, is, well, did you get the guard on tape?
		And Larry said, no.
		Or the policeman either.
		Yes.
		But I got their stories and I cross-referenced it with other people that are following this from the Egyptian side.
		So I had what I felt was enough information to give to Richard because he couldn't get the video of the little room.
		I used the modern village pyramid workers' eyes to tell me what was in there.
		And I think Richard, on one of your broadcasts there on the Art Bell show, referred to the little black statue with the Ankh looking up through the hole out into the universe.
		And then we both discovered about the same time that Edwards had described the same thing, unbeknownst to me.
		And I found that ironic.
		And since then, I have keyed backwards to the approximate time that even before when I discovered this room, that the Egyptian authorities were already aware of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Gentlemen, we've got to pause right there.
		When we come back, the big news, this has been leading up to what we're about to tell you is going on inside the pyramid with nobody's knowledge, has secretly been going on for some time.
		So brace yourself.
		I promise you that coming up in this next half hour because I realize we'll lose many of you at the end of this half hour.
		So it's all coming together.
		Stay right where you are.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		The Amazes Way.
		I can't get by.
		Can't save my life without your love.
		Can't save my life without your love.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, and we're going to get right down to it in a moment, folks.
		I promise, if I have to ring next, we're going to get down to it because I realize we've got just about a half hour here, and that's it before some of you will lose us.
		4627.
		That's 1-800-557-4627.
		You've got nothing to lose but the facts.
		All right, now back to Richard Hoagland and Larry Hunter.
		Larry's in L.A. Richard is in or near Manhattan.
		And, gentlemen, we have got to get to it.
unidentified		That's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got to get to it now.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		As you know, I have been involved in deep discussions with the Shore Expedition for the last couple of years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The Shore Expedition connected ARE, given permission by Hawass to do some things, not do other things.
		And there have been several trips by Shore and company, geophysicists and filmmakers and a lot of other people who've gone over and who have done something.
		And the rest of us have been sitting here kind of cooling our heels, wondering when we would ever see what they got to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Several million dollars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Shore has put a lot of money in.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Several million dollars.
		I've had meetings with Dr. Shore.
		I've had meetings with some of the key people in the Shore Expedition.
		In fact, at one point, I was actually given an invitation to come, and we had a very interesting discussion with Graham Hancock and Robert Vaval that night on your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, and I was going to even come with you, I recall.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well, nothing seems to be making progress, and this has gone on for month after month after month, and there's been stalls, and there's been factories.
		Zor is fed up.
		He canceled a five-year digging program in Egypt because of this situation.
		Totally canceled it.
		Walked out and said, I don't want anything else to do with Egypt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's another case of Zahi doing what Zahi has done for years.
unidentified		Yep.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What happened in the last couple of months, Sarah, as you well know, because I included you in on the conversation from the beginning, is that a member of the shore expedition came to me, called me up, and said, and I'm going to use paraphrasing now, I basically am willing to turn state's evidence.
		I am so fed up with this insanity that Hawas is pulling, with the strangeness that's going on in Egypt, in the Antiquities Council, and at various other levels, and the stall tactic, that I am willing to provide,
		under certain conditions, all the material and data and film and video from the Shore Expedition, provided you will arrange for a proper venue where all of the independent investigators get a chance to use this to advance the cause of openness and to break the wall of secrecy, which Hawass has been masterminding for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what did we suspect was going on?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we suspected that Hawass was part of this careful delay, delay, because something mysterious was going on that he was orchestrating, probably to culminate in the mid-summer of this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell them what we suspected.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we suspected that he was going to open the chamber in the pyramid, the Isis chamber.
		Now, Larry believes from other sources that he already knows it exists, that he had previous access and had been cut off from that access.
		Is that correct?
		Larry, good.
		They put bars up over the entry into the secret room of which has been visited by the modern village pyramid workers for their whole lives.
		It's sort of the sacred of the village.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but we had information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to do this if you're not, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the pieces of information was There was video.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And in tracking through with this source when the video was shot, what the video was shot of, it became apparent to me that the shore people themselves had filmed and not realized they had filmed the digging in the late, late fall of 1996 of a chap or a tunnel attempting to reach this so-called ISIS chamber from above.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, coming from digging a tunnel from the king's chamber.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, above the king's chamber.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Above the king's chamber, all the way down to meet up with this secret room way down below.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was, all right.
		If you actually do the geometry, it would be a horizontal shaft kind of extending south out toward the southern horizon.
		But it didn't do that.
		Initially, it didn't do that.
		The digging went east and west.
		It went east and west.
		But you could branch off from east and west to try to find where you would enter that room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we suspected they were secretly digging, but we couldn't go public with this because the evidence was not conclusive.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It was not conclusive.
		Now, it's very important to get the time sequence.
		These people, and again, I'm keeping these sources quiet tonight because I don't want to burn bridges.
		Me too.
		They were up there in April of 96 with film cameras as part of Shor's expedition and reported nothing unusual in the chamber just above the king's chamber.
		In November of 96, when they were up there, they reported and they actually recorded certain tests, certain sound tests, that there was a long tunnel about 60 feet long that had been dug parallel to the south wall of the Davison chamber, which fronts on that secret room about 100 feet beyond, if our calculations are correct.
		And it's what's below that passage that I have that when Richard's doing his, I have mine.
		And when Richard's feeding me information, I'm seeing things that I haven't revealed by the modern workers as to what he's really up to.
		Okay, so the sequence is important because remember, according to Larry's guard, his source, in December of 96, El Baz and company went in on October 20th.
		And the shore people reported that the digging didn't start until November, a few days later.
		So that's what got me very excited.
		And I've been attempting to get more of this video to verify it.
		I've now got some of it.
		I've actually been provided some of the shore video.
		And yes, there is something going on on this existing video.
unidentified		There were about the power cables running up and things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In February, when the shore people were there again, my source reported that a new wrinkle had been added.
		You can only get to this chamber above the king's chamber by a very rickety ladder, a very long ladder that had been built to climb up at the end of the Grand Gallery.
		And there is a tunnel up there that was dug in, what, the 1600s, Larry, by Davidson himself.
		That's why it's called the Davidson Chamber.
		What our shore source reported was that there was a very thick power cable that had been added running from the Grand Gallery up into this tunnel and disappearing in the direction over the king's chamber, and it was hot to the touch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they were using high current device.
		They were digging.
		They were digging.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At this point, well, that's an inference.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They may have been digging.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's more than an inference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A light doesn't heat up a table.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, it had to be something pretty massive and draining a lot of power.
		So at this point, I called Larry and I said, when is your next scheduled trip for Egypt?
		And he said, oh, next week.
		And I said, fine, get the to an airplane.
		And we proceeded to make an arrangement for videos and film cameras and all that.
		He got on a plane.
		He arrived, what was it, 10 days ago?
		I arrived on the 16th at about 4.30 their time.
		Which is the day?
		The night before I did the show last week where we talked about NASA and Egypt and Phoenix.
		And this is what Larry saw.
		All right.
		What we did, I'll just try and give you a chronology here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As quick as you can, Larry.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Right now I've got a fact coming to you or an email with three or more pictures of what I'm talking about right now.
		My person that was going to help me in this, because I'm so well known over there, we had to use a third person or a second person to go in and be my eyes, so to speak, but under my direction.
		Well, when he first went in on the 17th, he saw two large bags sitting on the Grand Gallery step directly below the hole of the Davidson entrance above.
		He saw the two ladders, of which one is relatively long and the other one extends it to make it enough distance to get to the hole.
		And then he saw the power cords going up, and he also saw and noticed that the video camera, which is security for the pyramid, was facing the wall.
		He took one piece of the rock out of the bag, of which the top one had also two plastic bottles for bottled water, which were empty.
		The photograph that I'm sending you will show you those bags sitting there on the 17th of June, one day after we arrived, going up through just to get a case of the place.
		And then on the next day, we went back and took more pictures and got more samples from the bags that were there.
		These are pristine, looks to me to be Turin limestone rocks with no dirt around them or anything like that.
		So then from that evidence, I called Richard immediately and informed him of the discoveries that we were encountering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you have proof.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They're rocks, yeah.
unidentified		I've got one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have proof, and these are the rocks that they would have somehow disgorged from their position as they dig toward this chamber secretly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Right, but now the part that I was discussing with Richard is that these rocks may be the last opening before they go in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, they may be just about to go in.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Or these are the rocks of the opening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, this digging, this secret digging by Zahi and company has been going on for how long?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, since November of 96 to June of 97.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we just finally got the proof we need.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's more.
		All right.
		So, after I had got these photographs and then I got to Richard, part of the effort was to get me up there or my persons up there to video it so that we had a cooperating evidence to go along with what Richard already had.
		But this proved to be more difficult than you could imagine.
		Even with all my sources and the arrangements of things that I could have done, it seemed to just shut down all around us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand you were followed in Egypt, is that correct?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, by everybody, but that doesn't bother me.
		I mean, I prefer they know where I am and what I'm doing.
		Talk about the American Embassy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the American Embassy had someone very close on the day that I was supposed to get the information that either I could get in or I could not to do this video.
		And he is a fixture now in the village selling or buying horses from certain people.
		And I'm not sure what his play in it is, but he's pretty knowledgeable to the activities of rooms because the person that he's living with or is associated with is getting suits for his children, supplying them with beer, and things like this.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Somebody from the American Embassy But he gets lost to beer and has no problem with that, so much so that it caused a big fight in the village between the two brothers.
		And this fight was on the day that I was supposed to get my information that I would either go or not.
		And in that process, I was told, no, you can't go.
		It's just too hot.
		The person that was going to allow all this activity of getting the ladder up for me was put down, and he couldn't do it.
		And then the only way that ladder can get up is by the signature of Zahi Hawas.
		Not Dr. Ali Hodson or anyone else.
		Only Dr. Hawass.
		So this is a Hawass secret project in the pyramid, digging a secret tunnel which is illegal to somewhere.
		And while there are trying to get permission, he makes himself unavailable to me, Richard, so that we cannot get his signature.
		He leaves and is in Germany until the day I leave.
unidentified		He comes back.
unidentified		He's there the day I left, the day he came back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Zahi is about to be greeted today.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, by the tourist police, of which I eventually went to and gave them the photographs of these rocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you gave him the proof that Zahi was digging illegally?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I didn't say...
		This is alleged in the way.
		All I can say is that Hawash's signature is the only one that will allow that ladder to go up.
		Your inferences can go any way they want.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but Richard, you said earlier that Zahi is going to be greeted with the plea by the police.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Larry took this effort.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'll lead into that part, if you'll let me get the sequence down, because you're cramming 10 days of...
unidentified		10 minutes.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This morning, before I left Egypt or the evening before, I had already been to the police and I had already informed them of this.
		I had tried to get to Dr. Ali Hassan and have meetings with him, but he was not available, not available after repeated calls.
		I informed his secretary that I would go to the newspapers in Egypt and give them the evidence, and I would let them go to him and ask the question.
		So then I also, at that time, before I went to the newspapers, I informed the general that I was going to go to the newspapers.
		He said, don't do that yet.
		But when I couldn't get to Dr. Ali Hassan, who also left very shortly thereafter, Egypt, not available to be gotten so that I could get permission from him to be the meditation groups, which is sort of the business, at a tune of somewhere in 1,000 and above, for his signature to do that, that was my second option, to get the latter up.
		He wasn't available.
		So I turned all this evidence over to the police and to the newspapers.
		And knowing that I was leaving, I went to the general as the last person and informed him that his investigation should go pretty quick because if he doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What general?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, his name is General Mohammed Dishaykh.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He's the tourist 5 Adeli Street general for the Giza Plateau.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you turned the evidence over to him?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		He told him that the American press and your show and the web was going to carry this evidence and make it public to ensure that an investigation into what is going on proceeds regardless now.
		Because I told him, in his terms, I've lit a fire behind your rear end to keep you motivated.
		And you go through and you do your job and you get to the bottom of this.
		And if you don't, the press is going to want to know why.
		And if you're going to silence the Egyptian press, then I'll fact you, Art Bell, three photographs at least of those rocks, that ladder, those power cords, that video pointing against the wall and all the activity.
		There's another piece in this that we didn't get to, but one of the sources questioned the new upcoming director of the plateau, a guy named Fabri, about what was going on.
		In case he didn't know of the illegal activities, we felt that it was imperative that he know.
		So we informed him, and he came back with us because somebody tried to say they were doing restoration in there.
		That wasn't true because I went down to the Sphinx and got the chips and compared them to the rocks, and they're totally different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is your opinion that they are just short of breaking through into the chamber?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If not, those rocks are the breaking through into the chamber.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they may even be already through any of the debris of those rush possibly could be.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Larry, how many pounds of these samples did you bring back?
		One rock was eight pounds in its own right, a huge block of this stone.
		The rest were small, little where they would bust up, bust up, bust up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I need to tell everybody that we have been desperately trying to get the three photographs just.
unidentified		They're being facts to you now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Richardson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not facts.
		No, they're being emailed to, they're being hopefully emailed to Keith Rowland, who will get them up on the website.
		So I want to tell everybody, before we lose some of the affiliates here at the top of the hour, to be checking my website because these photographs are going to be there, the ones you just heard described, showing evidence of illegal digging, serious illegal digging.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We don't know if it's illegal.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They can have permission and it's all secret, so be careful how we say illegal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Secret digging?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		I just don't want to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to say secret?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it safe to say secret digging?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's certainly not been advertised.
		You're denying that they're doing it.
		Even the guy Sabri that I'm referring to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I think the word secret works.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He's claiming that they're just cleaning the chambers up above.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of eight-pound rocks?
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		Of which was supposed to have been done seven years ago.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Before we lose the affiliates, there's a key thing here.
		The assistant managing editor of El Was newspaper of El Wath newspaper, which is one of the key Cairo newspapers.
		And the one to follow Hawas for a lot of years over the sabotage against the Sphinx that I reported years ago that was broken by the people of Hawash.
		And because of the powerful foreplays of the Minister of Culture and several others, that that whole thing was suppressed.
		And the truth ever be known will prove that the antiquities officials also broke the shoulder of the Sphinx to remove the only good man in antiquities, a Dr. Ahmed Qadri.
		Anyway, here, this man, this assistant managing editor is a longtime friend of Larry Hunter.
		Larry left a set of this evidence with Muhammad.
		I placed a call to his home phone this morning, Art.
		And what I'm going to attempt to do is to arrange an interview between you and this editor of this key Cairo newspaper who has now launched his own investigation into this secret tunneling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At any rate, Azahi is going to be confronted by this general.
unidentified		This morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This morning.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		With one guy named, oh, the names are, I'm a little tired here right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're probably plus about eight or nine hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that could actually be occurring nearly as we speak.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Or have already occurred because when I left there, it was at about 10 o'clock that I talked to the general, went directly to the airport, and got on a plane for 10 hours to New York and then New York to L.A. And then in that timeframe, they would have woken up and gone and done their investigation into what we were reporting to them.
		But on the afternoon of the 25th, we sent three people up there again, and the rocks had been removed.
		But not before, like I say, we had evidences of those rocks out of those bags and in our hands, and we had them photographed, copies of to the police and to the press, and then discovering that they had indeed been removed on the 25th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one thing's for damn sure, they cannot remove the tunnel if it has been dug.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They can't.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the power cord was described by Dr. Sabri that this was put up there for Dr. Hawass to read some hieroglyphics of which there are none.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tried to say earlier, I know a little bit about that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what was the editor's response, Larry, when he saw the power cord?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Power cord is for equipment, heavy equipment.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if it's hot, trust me, there is no light that would heat up a great big, thick 220 or 440 power cord.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No way.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got them at Guffett.
		Gentlemen, we have them by the short.
		We have the white rock of this stone that is not what was the seven-year-old cleaning out stones because they had yellow sand on them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, we will be back in a moment, but I want to tell my audience, both of you stand by.
		There you have it.
		Secret digging.
		We'll use the word secret digging until we see whether any charges are filed over all of this.
		Zahi Hawas about to be confronted by a general and by the police.
		And they're digging or they may already be into that chamber.
		That's the news that we were waiting to break.
		The pictures, the photographs should be up on the website shortly.
		I'll check into it and we'll be back in a moment.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is CBC 1500 KSTP.
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		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and we'll get back to my guests, Larry Hunter and Richard Hoagland, in a moment.
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		All right, back now to my guests.
		And by now, you know what's going on.
		Larry Hunter and, of course, Richard C. Hoagland.
		Gentlemen, welcome back.
		Actually, we still really do maintain the great majority of our affiliates at this hour.
		I had forgotten we shifted the whole program an hour earlier.
		I'm not even used to it myself yet.
		So we have the majority of the audience with us.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are pieces we need to fill in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we'll fill them in in a second.
		I want to inform the audience who's going to be up on the website looking like crazy for these photographs that it's going to be a couple hours at Minimum, and even then, we may not get them up there.
		There's going to be a FedEx delivery to me, and I will personally scan the photographs, and we'll have that underway.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		A FedEx delivery to me, and I will scan them and get them to Keith.
		So we'll have multiple sources.
		You understand that this all basically blew up.
		I didn't exactly want to do this this way, me either.
		Well, thank you, Larry.
		When Larry arrived back, literally yesterday afternoon, he called me.
		He literally hit the house dead tired after a 10-hour flight, you know, mosquito-bitten and whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		17, he said, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Walked in the door and called me and said, I'm back.
		And then he told me what he had done with the general, with the police, with his editor friend of this major Cairo newspaper.
		And I knew that it was going to hit the fan this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so we had to get it on the air before.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		So I told Larry, I said, look, you need to get some rest.
		He said, I want to go to the steam room.
		I want to, you know, kind of decompress.
		There was no way I could, at that time, to get him to scan these into any computer.
		So it was late last night, about two hours before airtime, when I could finally reach him when he regained consciousness.
		And then I said, look, go and find a Kinko's, which was supposed to be open all night.
		And I gave him keys, numbers, and I gave him instruction for how to do it.
		And Larry drove all over Los Angeles and found that no Kinkos were open.
		And so he frantically went home, woke his neighbor up, who's a graphic designer who has a computer and a server and all that.
		And for some reason, her computer has been pitching conniption fits pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She had to reload software.
		She had to do all kinds of things.
		And then when she finally got the photographs, she sent them to the wrong address.
		Then I called her back again.
		And she said, unfortunately, her access to the internet just dropped and won't be up for a couple of hours.
		So with all of that trouble, maybe it's jinxed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, it's just demonstrating that we're not going to stop till we get it, and no matter if the websites are down or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, anyway, you will send me, we've arranged, I gave you my personal address, and you're going to FedEx the pictures, in fact, even sending me a rock.
		And I'm going to scan those photographs and get them up.
		Richard will also receive them.
		So if we don't have the photographs, the proof, up within hours, we'll have it up within a day.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		Now, let's fill in some of the interstitial glue here.
		This is a circumstantial case.
		It is built on independent observers, both from the Shore Expedition and our own representative in Larry and his really magnificent efforts.
		One of the things that Larry was able to do, in addition to the photographs of the rocks, of the power cable, of the ladder, of the signatures of the surveillance TV camera turned to the wall, which of course is a big no-no.
unidentified		Of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He was able to go and get the guard on tape.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Larry?
unidentified		From October 20th.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From the time that Farouk was there, Farouk Albaz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you got the interview this time that you were unable to get last time.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the last time I really didn't think I needed it, but Richard seemed to think, see, I'm not a reporter in any sense, so I'm not trained in that level.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What Richard was seeing is something that I didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you thought it would be okay to come back and tell Richard what the guard had said.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Or that he was, that references to that he was there, not that I ever talked to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Richard said, no, we've really got to have something concrete before we can go public.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That was two of the new items that he put on this agenda that I have my own research going on, and I'm doing other things that also at a later time, if we have the time, I'd like to share with you, Art, and your listeners the research that I've been doing over about an 18-year period.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we will get to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The confrontation that will occur or is occurring this morning between the General of the Police and Zahi Awass, if it turns out that Zahi has been doing this without legitimate authority, What will happen?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends on...
		And the Egyptian newspapers wanted to move slow because they don't really see Dr. Hawash as the only one that's masterminding all this.
		They really want to get to the big story.
		Neither do I. Well, Hawas is part of a larger picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you think Hawass is connected to our country and that our country has been using Hawas to obtain material that's been driving the NASA agenda.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember, we have gotten those patterns.
		Can I give you a comment on that?
		30 or 40 years, we find a stunning Egyptian pattern in a NASA space program where it should not exist.
		Well, one of my sources informed me that of the items that were in the room that Hawass seems to always say is not there.
unidentified		Now, wait a minute.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Back up, Larry.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about your sources that claim that Hawass has already been in this room.
		Absolutely.
		And I've got guards that have seen that, and I can give you background detail before you want to go on air with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mo, how would he have gone into the room?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If he couldn't go up the tunnel, and he had not yet dug the long tunnel that we have revealed tonight.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Off the grotto on the descending passage is the entrance that has been used for years.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they have just recently installed iron bars over that to keep everyone out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what's the point of digging the long tunnel?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think you want to go into that on this show because there are some highly confidential parts to this that should allow the Egyptians to get to the bottom of it before that's revealed to the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do want to go into it.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's just say this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know you may want to, I've got a lot on the line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's my job to ask.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but Art is doing a perfectly good job of asking.
		Larry, let me see if I can bridge the gap here and not reveal sources.
		From Larry's contacts, it is clear to me if those contacts are truthful and can be believed, and with 18 years of developing relationships, there's a certain modicum of trust that we have to understand that is going on here to protect this village at all costs because they are the eyes and ears that feed us any and everything of the illegal activities of those individuals who have private agenda.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Modern pyramid workers will use this euphemism.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Larry has been told that for a long time, Dr. Hawass and certain colleagues have had access through the lower part of the pyramid into this ultra-secret room or complex of rooms.
		We're not quite sure.
		I'm not quite sure how much volume there is in this room.
		Let me shed some light.
		There's a lot of things.
unidentified		Let me finish my limbing out and then you can fill in the details.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Recently, for some reason, his access through his normal tunnel or door has been closed off with a steel gate.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No locked, just barred.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Bars.
unidentified		Barred.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Just steel bars.
		Which means, politically, somebody said no.
		That's the way I interpret it.
unidentified		Same way right now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It looks as if he started a secret project up top to get to it anyway, see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Of which the room is over 250 feet from ground to ceiling, and he's coming in on the upper level now through the Davidson chambers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What could be driving Hawas that hard to get to it and risk everything?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Larry, you have to talk about the artifacts ostensibly removed.
		Looted might be an interesting term.
		Over 203 items were taken out by my forces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And provided some of them were provided at JPL.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At the tune dip, about somewhat ten miles.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute, Larry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it, hold it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Larry, did you say JPL?
unidentified		Yes, he did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are one of them provided to JPL?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		For $10 million.
unidentified		What?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is not small, Art.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I was told, be careful, these people will kill you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was asking about that very thing earlier, and you were giving me reassurances.
unidentified		No, no, no, no, no.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But you've got to remember, and if you'll just let me say it, they did try to do that in Frankfurt, Germany, but Egyptian special forces stopped them from doing it.
		And I'm not worried because if God wants me dead, Art, I'd be dead.
		I'm not afraid of any man in that regard.
		When I'm in doing what I'm doing, I feel totally protected by a lot.
unidentified		People I don't even know know me and watch me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I am well protected.
		I have no fear of any of this.
		And even when they're trying it behind me, I sense it and feel it.
		I still go forward.
		It doesn't bother me.
		And we have about 18 million people watching us right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they may be watching me, but they're listening to you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The important thing is, the important thing here is there appears to be a history, a long history, of duplicity regarding the nature of the pyramid and what it contains and its uses, and an intense interest on the part of NASA, U.S. Space Agency, in an ancient, dusty mausoleum for reasons that are not fathomable by current history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we document $10 million changing hands?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we can't.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		But we can document a current tunnel.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		How do we know it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's say that if we're putting it up on your show that it is a worldwide, in a sense, broadcast because you're carried pretty far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that everybody listening will be listening, and then these things will be discussed on a big-time level throughout the archaeological Orthodox or Egyptologists, if you will, in Egypt as we're speaking.
		Because I know the children in Egypt have access to web, and I've watched them call up Richard's website, and I watched them call up Farouk El-Baz's resume out of the Boston University to see his activity and give me color laser prints.
		So they have the technology over there, and what we're doing, even though it won't come out in the papers or in some other method, this is a source that will guarantee that people of Egypt under www.com can read it and see it for themselves.
		And just in that information and effort alone, they will have a groundswell of what is going on.
		Because these monuments not only belong to the people of Egypt, they belong to the world.
		They're not the personal faults of any Egyptologist that they can do business with whoever for whatever reason.
		These things need to be put in the light of day and under the scrutiny of humanity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know anything, Larry, about the nature of these, you said, hundreds of things removed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		203.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		203.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know anything of the nature of these things?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Enough that they got caught, and they were told by their Egyptian equivalent of our CIA to put them all back, and I'm not sure that all items have made it back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I mean is, can you tell me anything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you received any descriptions of these items?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, other than I always ask the question, if it's pharaonic art, what would JPL be interested in it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure that causes a twitch in Richard's eye when he does that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And a raised eyebrow, at the very least.
		Now, I've done the broadcast a couple of years, or last year or so, on public television, of which it went bicycling, and I have no idea who ever saw it.
		But it was a program called Things You Should Know.
		And I discussed a lot of this on that program, but I know that the majority of very, maybe few people have ever seen it.
		But I have copies of both of those TV tapings.
		It was two half-hour shows that I did to cover the secret room and concept and then the area of my research.
		the key thing here is that up until this night on your program, Art, this was hearsay.
		This is sources that cannot stand in front of a TV camera because pretty nasty things might happen.
		And a reliable, you know, independent Indiana Jones type archaeologist who can only come on media and discuss what he's been told, but he can't reveal the sources.
		So it basically is a stalemate.
		But tonight, we have actual evidence of secret tunneling by a key director general of the Giza Plateau.
		Well, at least his signature is the only one that can put the ladder up there.
		That much has been described.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you're really saying this could not have occurred, simply could not have occurred without Zahi's approval.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It is his signature that puts that ladder up.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Nobody else, not Dr. Ali Hassan, no one else can put that ladder up without Dr. Hawass's signature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of reaction did you get when you went to the general?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We'll go, we'll take this policeman that was standing right beside me, and we will go and get an archaeologist that's not from the offices of Hawash, but one of his own men, and that they would go up there and investigate it.
		And then they would confront Hawash with this.
		And then when I went back the following day and in the evening as I was leaving, he demonstrated to me by just lifting one piece of paper that that photograph was on the top of his activity level.
		A priority, on top.
		One piece of paper covering it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you concerned about getting out of Egypt with what you were carrying?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm never afraid, you know, on those levels.
		This is something that you've got to remember.
		I move fearless.
		I'm not afraid.
		My only thing was that I couldn't catch the flight on Saturday because it was overbooked already.
		And I had some activity for the weekend that I had planned before I even went.
		But I had told Richard that I would be willing to stay because this general, whenever I was talking with him, I told him that I had the high-8 system and that I would be happy to accompany him to go up there.
		And I would video whatever evidence was there and then make a copy for him or give him the original and make a copy for me.
		And he agreed that that was all acceptable to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, how do you think the Shor expedition or the Shor people are going to react to this news?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think if it opens the system, if the honest part of the Egyptian government, which of course is overwhelmingly in the majority, finally understands why the stonewalling has been taking place, that Dr. Shor and his millions of dollars will ultimately have been put to good use.
		Because if we hadn't had access to that independent evidence and would have given me the heads up to get Larry over there to get this kind of corroboration, none of this conversation would be occurring tonight.
		It would still be in my notes because over the last, well, ever since I exposed the sabotage against the Sphinx and almost had Hawas put in jail for this, but through a long story art in the future for the listeners, that if you ever want to bring me back and go slow and just develop this meticulous 18-year effort, you'll find some amazing things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Larry.
		Larry and Richard, hold on.
		We'll be back to you in a moment.
		So, folks, minus some of the details, you've got the story.
		They've been digging and digging and digging, and nobody knew about it until now.
unidentified		Well, I think it's all about to celebrate.
unidentified		To realize what I have found, I have not been on the hell upon myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Talk Station, AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		The Talk Station, AM 1500 KSTP.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Top of the morning, everybody.
		I am Art Bell.
		And in a moment, we'll get back to our guests.
		And we'll sort of wrap this up.
		And we'll kind of put it in perspective so you understand the significance of what you're hearing.
		5665.
		That's 1-800-232-5665.
		You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
		Tell them Art Bell sent you.
		All right.
		Just a side note, this in from Reuters, and Richard will no doubt find this interesting.
		An unmanned Progress cargo craft carrying vital repair supplies to the damaged Mir space station is going to be launched on July 4th, or at the latest, July 5th.
		But in all probability, July 4th.
		They just announced.
		So, interesting date, eh, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Kind of.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of a confluence.
		Anyway, I guess to put this all in perspective, we need to understand that the Egyptians are their own masters, or they're supposed to be.
		They have the pyramids.
		It is on their land, in their country.
		They are a sovereign nation.
		There are people who have the view that what's in the pyramids, or we think may be in them, belongs to the wider world.
		But if there is a group with a secret deal digging secret tunnels and transferring things to NASA or to JPL or to anybody else, it needs to be exposed and it's not a trivial story.
		And that's what we're working on here.
		A lot of people will say, well, big deal, Egyptians digging in the pyramids.
		So what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the so what here, of course, is it drives to the heart of what is the pyramid?
		What is Giza?
		What is the significance for the planet, for humankind, for a connection to an extraordinary high-tech program to explore space?
		This is beginning to really round out the theory, the model, that the Giza Plateau is one set of artifacts that are in fact the relics of a former high-tech epoch of civilization, human civilization, perhaps 12,500, 13,000 years old.
		If I could throw in, I would say several million.
		Well, maybe in recurring cycles, and that's a long discussion, Larry, that we need to reserve for another program.
		The point is that the model that we have been putting forward now, ever since we discovered this arcane and mysterious connection between NASA and this ancient Egyptian cosmology, and a key linchpin, a man, picked by President Nixon to literally design the landing sites, to pick the landing sites on the moon for the Apollo astronauts, who then went on to become a very high-ranking official in the Egyptian government under Sadat.
		That connection has to be explored.
		Let me give you a theory on that, Richard.
		Maybe some of those items that you and your Clementine programs that you were going around the country is that you were theorizing that objects were brought back.
		Is it possible that those objects are what Farouk took into the Queen's room?
		I would more likely think that the guard is not familiar with modern telecommunications equipment.
		And in fact, what was in that aluminum suitcase was, what you said, a computer and a video robot.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		Or to look behind it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Theorized even more.
		Maybe the items that were brought for the moon because somehow they were taken from here and stored there until such time.
		That raises another important possibility.
		You know, I don't mind theorizing on that.
		No, no, no.
		I think you're onto something here.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		If there is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me back up.
		In the Egyptian texts, Art, there is a clear connection between the Giza Plateau and the moon.
		Between the keeper of the pyramid, Thoth, who was a moon god, all right?
		There are all kinds of texts relating that complex of pyramids to the moon itself.
		We know now that there are artifacts on the moon, at least from our investigation we know.
		We know that we went to the moon according to a certain ancient Egyptian plan.
		It's conceivable that John Kennedy's vision, part of a Masonic tradition, impelled forward a space agency in secret designs to go and retrieve things that were specifically forecast would be found in certain places in archives that were buried thousands of years ago under the Giza Plateau or in the pyramid itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hear the argument, Richard, that what is at Giza belongs to the world.
		I don't necessarily agree with that argument.
		In the larger sense, maybe it is true, but in fact, Egypt is a sovereign nation.
		Now, if Egypt, acting on its own, wanted to do archaeology, I guess they would have that right, and we might sit back and grumble and mumble and say, come on, folks, this is of concern to the entire world.
		And we might have some reason to be doing that, but basically, they're a sovereign nation.
		They can do what they want.
		If, however, somebody is acting independently and our nation, America, is influencing our man, or the way you've described him, Zahi Awas, to do something secretly for us, then that needs to be exposed, and that's what I think this is all about.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		One of the key things here is the relationship between Hawas and the ARE, the Casey Foundation, the Association for Research and Enlightenment.
		This fall, in August, I was scheduled to speak at the ARE conference in Virginia Beach, as was Dr. Hawass, as was Robert Baval, and several other people.
		When I talked with John Van Auchen a few weeks ago, and he informed me that he did not want me to bring a video crew and to video our presentation, I pulled out.
		When he informed me that basically he only wanted 270-some people in a small room in Virginia Beach to see what we had figured out and not the rest of the world or the rest of the audience or the rest of people are interested, I said, John, thank you very kindly, but I'm not going to play.
		There is some kind of interesting relationship documented between ARE and Dr. Hawass.
		Mark Lehner and Ph.D. Don't leave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go out, Larry.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Mark Lehner.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, Mark Lehner is another interesting shadowy figure.
unidentified		Dr. Lehner.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Lehner is a protege, also of ARE.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He's kind of, well, I was thinking of a metaphor that probably is not appropriate, so I won't use it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Lehner is a person who started out very much interested in the whole Casey thesis, which is that there was a previous epoch, roughly 10,500 years ago, the so-called Atlantean epoch, a prior civilization, and he, Lehner, with the aegis of ARE behind him, would get a PhD, get the proper credentials, go to Egypt, and verify it.
		Prove it.
		Hit an Egyptian wife.
		Somewhere along the line, Dr. Lehner jumped the ARE ship and has now become one of the most vocal critics of the whole Atlantean ancient civilization scenario.
unidentified		And Dr. Search.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Search, Larry.
		His own research, when he gathered the samples from the pyramid, the mortar samples, restorative samples.
		Say again?
		He grabbed restoration samples that were done in the time of Khufu.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This whole dating, you know, where he dated the top of the pyramid as being older than the bottom and a whole bunch of incongruities, basically fits into the thesis that there's more to this pyramid than meets the eye or modern scientific analysis.
		And what we seem to be seeing, particularly if we can Trust Larry's sources that material has been taken out of this secret chamber and funneled for a very high value to JPL of all places.
		And it was done through the causeway off the east side down through into a little area across two canals called El Kum Laudi.
		We seem to be seeing a model of a high-tech complex being looted by agents of a high-tech government for purposes somehow connected to the larger government space effort.
		And that is not standard Egyptian Egyptology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it is not.
		And if it is true, it needs to be exposed.
		And that is what we're doing this morning.
		And so people who sit out there and say, well, I stayed up to listen to, you know, evidence that Egyptians are digging in the pyramids, come on.
		They need to understand the profound place that this is really going and what's driving all of this.
		And I think now, if they're still listening, they understand.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The thing that I'm concerned with is we're coming up on a key date.
		Because of the computer, because of our ability to match the stars and to find these configurations and this thread through the moon landings, the Mars landings, the sighting over Phoenix, over the Giza Plateau, all coming to a climax on June 20th, 1997.
		And Larry and his And Larry and his colleague, it's getting late over here, guys.
		Larry and his colleague finding the bags of rocks, big rocks, which are the kind that you get when you break through a hole and go tumble into a larger chamber.
		All right, that's when the stuff gives away and you get the big pieces.
		So I think his inference that those are the last pieces when they got through in the new tunnel up above is very accurate.
		That implies to me that we're on the verge of some kind of climax.
		And I am very disturbed by what appeared on NASA's website tonight regarding Mars Pathfinder, because I'm beginning to believe that there will be two programs regarding Mars.
		The one we get to see in the computer, very nicely made up in the virtual reality world of digital data bits, so that all the honest folks think they're seeing Mars when in fact they're seeing an incredibly sophisticated high-tech simulation.
		And then the real program, which will culminate for some purpose unknown, on the 20th in synchronization with events to be held in the pyramid at Giza itself.
		The 20th from Mars' aspect, because we're dealing with the helikiel rising of Sirus coming up on the 26th of July, which is where from the Egyptians' point of view on the Giza plateau and the horizon is that Sirus will come up just before the sun after having been behind it for 70 days.
		And this activity of going on now is foreshadowing the event of some ceremony associated with that star rising.
		And that ceremony involves reincarnation, rebirth, immortality, the arkur, the end of the beginning, the beginning of the end.
		In other words, the phoenix, the new rising from the ashes of the old.
		And Richard, if I can add a little for Arts here, because he did ask this, I would just suggest you read the Osirian funerary text, and maybe they have the opening mouth ceremony to occur with what's underneath that room.
		And that's very dangerous because that, in a sense, all this belongs to God.
		I mean, when you say it belongs to the Egyptians and it belongs to the world, I only see God as the architect in this, and I don't want to get religious off on a high level here, but these things are beyond anything that we in modern times can even fathom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Larry, I understand the larger argument.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really do.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I think that the body is what they're after of Osiris.
		And I'll go on record with that right now, if that's what you were trying to get out of me before I said I would like to lay a lot of groundwork first because I have literally hunted the deserts of Egypt, the hills, the farm for the layout of the Orion constellation, of which I finished this trip.
		I've got the head of Messiah, the star of the Orion constellation.
		I have the nebulas of Orion, M42 and 3.
		I have GPS every one of these by right ascension and declination, correcting Robert Bovald's errors of naming Zaliat Bellatrix, of which should have been Betelgeuse, shifting everything back out to the correct axes of which he would find, with no problem, the things that he couldn't find in his book.
		And he refuses to this day to get with me and let me show him what he misrepresented to the reader at large that purchased his book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have Beauval and Hans Hancock been informed of what you two know?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I've invited them to go with me, and they were going to go, and then they backed out several times back of, let's say, I took four trips last year, and in the February trip I invited them.
		But then Robert Beauval didn't want to be a part of it.
		and it's his theory, and his theory won't stand up to scientific right, ascension, declination, scrutiny of meridian passages, the sequence of Rigel and...
		What Beauvol has laid out in his book is a very interesting idea, that the three main pyramids on the Giza Plateau correspond to the belt stars in the constellation of Orion, i.e.
		Osiris.
		What Larry has been doing quietly for about 18 years is trying to find independently, even earlier, all the other stars in the Osiris-Orion constellation as marked by aging, crumbling little bits of pyramidal architecture in the desert sands of the surface level.
jamie shandera ▲ ● ▼		At the surface level.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And using this modern GPS technology, remember McDolan?
		He is able to site himself in the desert on a mound and correlate that cartographic map position on the Earth on the Sahara plain with the celestial position Of the star corresponding to that spot in the sky over Egypt itself.
		It's a literal equivalent of what we've been doing in the computer.
		And what he has discovered, and what we're in the process of carefully corroborating, is that the Orion he has now found, corresponding to all the other stars above and beyond the three belt stars, is an Orion that is subtly different than the Orion we now see.
		And when you look at the positions of that Orion constellation and you plug in the proper motions, the actual drift in space of the stars, you find that those stars correspond to the Orion as it would have appeared over Egypt several hundred thousand to perhaps a million years ago.
		Make away with several, and I'll be.
		That's why, there's a certain figure of uncertainty here, but that's why I think Larry is on the correct trail of the longevity and the ancient magnitude of this civilization and the various cycles and epics it's gone through and how all this information has become and has been handed down to us through some preservers, some core group.
		And the fact that I can now find this same information showing up at the centerpiece of the American space program with key personnel connected between these two cultures should provoke everyone listening to us tonight to want to know what in the world is going on and what's going to come to a climax on July 20th, 1997.
		Well, I'm going to give a presentation in Lothman, Nevada in around August.
		There's a week presentation there put on by Bob Brown.
		I don't know if it's all right to talk like this, but I have two hours that I'm going to give a presentation of walking an individual through the procession text of Buna's sixth dynasty to where he went from on Heliopolis to a point called Letopolis, making a turn and then going into the center of Duat to his fortress down through a gateway to become Orion.
		I have literally documented this whole thing.
		I have the film footage of my 1988 time where I went down in underneath the secret room and I had an antiquities official making noise that I picked up on my video.
		So when I get ready for this presentation on August the 10th or that week of it, I need this month between where I've just finished my research to smooth it all out, get my videos together and make one heck of a good presentation to get the attention that this is all highly scientific and that it is verifiable by science,
		of modern astronomy, and by techniques of GPS and going to the actual site and finding the evidence that supports the location of the mass of the star to the terrestrial picture on Egypt's plateau.
		I've done it.
		I finished.
		I'm ready now.
		As Richard said, I've been doing it for 18 years and I've been very quiet.
		You have got the crack on that because that's really an exclusive on what I've been doing that I've been very quiet and going over meticulously and I have the trust of a lot of people.
		But now it comes to the point where after the evidence that I just acquired for Richard to support what he already had, is that I'm thoroughly convinced that we've got to stop whatever they're doing right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it's not already too late.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, only, you know, I would hope not, but for the sake of the things that are there and its potential for whatever humanity will benefit from this, is that it wasn't ever meant for the grave robber.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It was meant for the rightful heirs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In service to it not being too late, Larry is going to be joining us in Phoenix.
		He doesn't know this, but he's going to be joining us in Phoenix, all right?
		And he's going to be presenting this evidence, the video, the photographs, the complete story.
		There's more of the evidence that we haven't had time to provide tonight.
		For people who want to join us physically, call this information number, 602-944-2434.
		602-944-2434.
		And you'll see a lot more than we're going to get up on the website in the next few hours.
		You'll see the complete story, and you can participate in exploring this link between what they're planning at Giza and what someone seems to be planning in Phoenix, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		All right.
		Larry, I want to thank you for, I know you're tired.
		I know it was a long, long plane ride from Egypt, and so I want to thank you for being here.
		And I'll look forward to getting that FedEx delivery from you.
		And Richard, as always.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Art, can I say one thing to the people of Egypt before you do this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Cut me down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real quick.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I am.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I love you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's it.
		Richard, good night.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it, folks.
		From the high desert, not the Egyptian desert.
		We're out of time.
		Talk to you tomorrow night.
		David Oates, good night.

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