Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

June 1, 1997 - Art Bell

01:58:54

Dreamland with Art Bell - Stanton Friedman - The Flying Saucer Physicist. LM Howe - Australia Sightings

Participants

Main voices

32:10

stanton friedman

52:11

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		It is.
		Good evening.
		Another Sunday night, another Dreamland underway.
		It'll be a very synchronistic program tonight.
		We have Linda Moulton Howe from Australia, Queensland, somewhere or another.
		And on the other side of the world, four time zones from me, we have Sentin Friedman up in the wilds of the north.
		He'll tell you where.
		He is a nuclear physicist and actually synchronistic in the sense that both will be discussing in many ways the same subject, and that is the opening up of all this information that everybody wants so open.
		So all of that to get underway in a moment.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Okay, if you've been hesitating on levitating yourself, now is the time.
		Call 1-800-275-2877 in a moment from Australia, Linda Moulton Howe.
		Give me a minute.
		Telemart Bell told you to call.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		All right, here we go.
		Let us give this a try all the way, I think, to Queensland, Australia, and Linda Moulton Howe Linda, are you there?
unidentified		You've connected, Art.
		And today at noon, June 2nd, I am in Montville, Queensland, a beautiful village 1,000 feet above the nearby Pacific Ocean, which rims the east coast of Australia.
		These rolling hills, which rise above the ocean, are covered with pineapple and sugar cane fields, lemon, papaya, eucalyptus, and palm trees, and exotic flowers and birds everywhere.
		To my American eye, it's identical to Hawaii above the Pacific Ocean.
		In the past three days, there have been sightings of orange glowing lights near here and other sightings in Brisbane further south.
		I made the newspapers.
		I talked with two Montville eyewitnesses, a husband and wife, who watched nine orange lights moving over the ocean in a formation of four lined up in front, followed by three in a line, and then two in a line.
		The nine orange lights moved in formation so slowly that the couple said they watched for at least 20 minutes before the lights moved out of sight.
		Then in Brisbane on Saturday, May 31st, radio stations there received calls from residences about, quote, a cluster of bright lights which appeared unnatural in the sky above the southern suburbs of Brisbane, unquote.
		I am now visiting a man who has created a forum for reports such as these and other unexplained phenomena.
		I am talking to you from the offices of Nexus magazine, which emerged in the 1980s as an effort, and I'm reading from the Nexus Statement of Purpose, quote, to recognize that humanity is undergoing a massive transformation.
		With this in mind, Nexus seeks to provide hard-to-get information so as to assist people through these changes, unquote, which is very much like your efforts to explain and to report about the quickening art.
		The magazine is now distributed internationally, including to the United States, and its editor, Duncan Rhodes, is with me now to discuss his perspective about government knowledge and cover-up of the UFO phenomenon by the United States, the UK, and Australia, who are very closely linked on this continent.
		And I'm going to start by asking Duncan, what is the best evidence that the United States government, working with the UK and Australian governments, are monitoring aerial vehicles not made by humans from satellites controlled and monitored from Pine Gap at the center of Australia.
		Here is Duncan Rose.
		Wow, good evening, everybody.
		Wow, what a question.
		I guess in my mind, the best evidence is probably the existence of Pine Gap itself and similar such bases.
		I know looking at the internet and obviously listeners to your show are very familiar with the name Pine Gap.
		It's probably recognised as Australia's equivalent to Area 51.
		However, there's a couple of little details about Pine Gap which not many people realise.
		Pine Gap is actually a joint UK-USA facility and it has been so top secret that even the Prime Minister of Australia cannot walk into that base and demand to have a look around as was tried several years ago with a former Prime Minister, Goth Whitlam.
		Most of my details and what I would call evidence is anecdotal and has come from conversations with people who I consider credible witnesses.
		But there is one example which stands out in my mind of an incident which occurred during the 1950s over the city of Darwin.
		Darwin is the capital city of what we call the Northern Territory, which is the state of Australia right at the northernmost part of the continent.
		During the 1950s, a very large UFO, circular in shape, was seen to be hovering over the city for quite a few hours during the daylight and the dusk.
		And this was reported to me by a friend of mine who was working in Darwin at the time in a form of radio station.
		Now the incident obviously attracted the attention of most of the residents of the city, which numbered in their hundreds of thousands at the time.
		It was photographed for the local newspapers, it was discussed on radio extensively.
		And then a day later, what was, I guess to my mind, the most fascinating aspect of the story, the locals report three classic men in black with American accents turned up in Darwin and basically made it a point to visit the local mayor and the mainstream media stations and outlets in Darwin and assure them that there was nothing out of the ordinary, that it was all under control.
		What makes it, I guess, stand out in my mind is that Darwin is a very, very hot city.
		It is extremely hot in Darwin.
		Everyone wears songs and shorts, subbies as they call them, and t-shirts and drinks lots of beer.
		So to have three guys from America wearing totally black suits, three piece suits, black shirts, black suits, black hats, black sunglasses, it made them stand out absolutely to everyone's mind.
		And I guess everyone in Darwin will never forget that aspect of the whole UFO case as much as the UFO itself.
		Which raises the question, what are the men in black from the 50s?
		Were they U.S. intelligence agents assigned to go to wherever there was something related to the UFO phenomena and basically keep it away from the public and the media?
		And today, in the 1990s, what would you say right now from the standpoint of your Nexus association in Australia with what are things that have been happening ranging everything from mutilations to circles in grass to sightings that says to you that this country still is involved with phenomena that we hear about in other parts of the world,
		but there seems to be as much an arm-length distance from these reports here to the media and the public as we see in the United States.
		Okay, it's a multifaceted question which I'll take from the top.
		Number one, we experience regular flaps of UFO sightings, as you are in America, and the Sunshine Coast where you're staying now, as you've seen, is a pretty hot spot for UFO activity.
		We do not have crop formations that are appearing in America and Europe, the same as in the Northern Hemisphere.
		We have had some very circular formations appearing in wheat fields, but upon investigation, it's obvious that according to eyewitnesses and soil analysis, something heavy has physically landed there and squashed and bruised the crops and left an indentation in the soil.
		So we do not have the formations.
		On the animal mutilation front, your visit here, as you are aware, has sparked a lot of renewed interest.
		And already a couple of mainstream TV stations, one in particular, the Channel 7 network, are digging up evidence as recent as today where they have contacted farmers going back over the last few years who have had multiple animal mutilations, particularly cattle.
		We've dug up out of our files newspaper clippings relating to this.
		So it's only now that we're starting to put two and two together and recognise the classic identification marks of what you call the standard animal mutilations have occurred extensively across Australia and not only on cattle and horses but also with some of our natural wildlife like wallabies and possums etc.
		On the government secrecy side, as I said before, primary intelligence sharing in Australia I have observed and gleaned from conversations with people, the UK-USA sort of nexus or the bond between the two is where the intelligence data from Australia is primarily forwarded.
		I've spoken to several abductees and contactees who were, in my opinion, briefed by aspects of British intelligence, certainly very well-dressed English-sounding upper-class accents.
		I've spoken to policemen who have retrieved debris or strange things from the ocean.
		They were debriefed by American accented people.
		I've spoken to people involved in various Special Forces units in the Vietnam War who have survived and come back to Australia to talk of their participation in UFO retrievals.
		Again, they were debriefed and in many cases intimidated and threatened into silence by people from the American embassy over here.
		So it's a continual sort of alliance of the British and the American over here where most of the information flows into their hands.
		I am aware of one incident of some crash debris reported to me by an ex-policeman.
		That debris was physically taken to Australia's only nuclear energy facility at Lucas Heights, just south of Sydney.
		So it implies again that the level of secrecy and information surrounding atomic energy is also involved in what I would say the UFO cover-up.
		And how does the Australian government explain to the Australian population what the nature of Pine Gap is?
		It's simple, it doesn't.
		We have released, well they have released press releases in the last 10 or 15 years.
		Basically the existence of Pine Gap is explained to us as a southern hemisphere detection centre for monitoring the launch of nuclear warheads and missiles in the northern hemisphere.
		It's explained to us that it's America's base down under to keep an eye on what the Russians were doing during the Cold War.
		Since the drop of the Iron Curtain and the relaxing of the Cold War, Pine Gap is obviously still functioning.
	Most of it exists underground, as you're aware.
	It's still being explained to us as tracking submarines.
	It was used during the Gulf War to help detect Scud missile launches of the Iraqis.
	And it's part of what I consider a network of bases, some of which are secret and unknown in their location, and other bases which are well known, like Northwest Cape and Exhemeth, which have incredible signal arrays, antenna arrays, and are well known to the public.
	So it's explained to us as a communications facility.
	Has anybody told you off the record, as I've heard, that one of the actual main monitoring uses of Pine Gap is to keep track of what we would call area vehicles not made from here, a network that's monitoring essentially UFO activity?
	Well I've spoken to two people who claim to have been inside Pine Gap at various levels and at various levels of security clearance.
	My understanding of the situation is that Pine Gap is multifunctional.
	It certainly, to my mind, can detect using over-the-horizon radar, etc., northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere aerial vehicles, both known and unknown.
	I believe it also can detect and monitor and does monitor civilian phone traffic.
	It monitors economic intelligence traffic through the fax lines.
	I believe it can monitor the internet.
	I've also, one of the conversations I had with a person who used to work there was he was adamant that PineGap was used, and this was in the 70s, He was adamant that it was being used for weather control and weather control experiments both in the southern hemisphere and the northern hemisphere, which I thought was an interesting statement.
	And also for the testing of unusual and strange weapons and vehicles, which is possibly coming out at the moment with your interview with Harry Mason that you've discussed.
	Yeah, the increased fireball activity across this continent has been a puzzling aspect, and I'm going to be doing a story on that when I'm back in the United States for a later dreamland that I can edit.
	And I suppose right now is the issue if Pine Gap is essentially owned, operated, and controlled by the National Security Agency in the United States with allied help from UK and Australia and has been here for quite a long time and cleared out all electromagnetic interference and everything at the very heart of Australia,
	bought up farms to remove electrical and power lines so that they would have an electromagnetic free area.
	Has anybody indicated to you whether or not they actually have tracked some sort of vehicle that was not known to be terrestrial from Pine Gap and that they know that that has happened?
	I have not spoken to anybody who has seen or tracked vehicles leaving Pine Gap of an unknown or UFO type design or description.
	I have spoken to one Aboriginal in the area who and several people in the Alice Springs area who have seen strange, what they would call UFO description type vehicles in the vicinity flying around a nearby Pine Gap.
	But I should add here as a footnote, I've spoken to many military personnel based in many military bases both in Australia and Southeast Asia and the amount of UFO activity hovering over often very ordinary bases of low security is quite phenomenal.
	It is certainly in my mind a recognised phenomenon that UFOs are observed repeatedly hovering over military installations both in this country and certainly throughout Southeast Asia.
	So whether or not that is the explanation or whether or not they are testing and making man-made UFOs is anyone's guess.
	And Art, do you and or Stan have any questions for Duncan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, absolutely fascinating.
		It sounds like the U.S. version of Area 51 or S4.
		Let's see if I can bring Stanton online.
		Stanton, are you here?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm here, and I've been listening with great interest.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		One question that came to mind is I haven't heard the word CIA mentioned so far or NRO, and I wonder if they are known to have a role out there.
unidentified		The NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, do you have a facility like that in Canada or America, an organization of that initial?
unidentified		Yes, yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		In the United States, the annual black budget was stated last year as, I mean, this is an organization that's been around for quite a long time, but wasn't admitted to exist really publicly until the last couple of years.
		And annual black budget estimated at $6 or $7 billion.
		Supposedly their job is to guide spy satellites, you know, pick out targets and all that sort of thing.
		It's known that they do more than that, but close connection with the CIA.
		Do you have NRO down there too?
unidentified		I certainly believe we have NRO representation.
		We have a thing called the Joint Signals Directorate, and there are several other Australian alphabet agencies similar to your own.
		They are all regularly linked at a publicly recognised level.
		I mean, the public releases that were given to myself when I worked at Simply Living magazine during the 80s, which was an environmental and human rights magazine, the press releases officially, the photographs basically indicated that there was reconnaissance and tracking, signals intelligence.
		I mean, it's basically signals intelligence was the main phrase used repeatedly.
		Signals intelligence fed to Australia.
		I mean, there are Australian personnel based there, usually on the surface, but it's very, very few.
		That's the National Reconnaissance Office in Australia.
		Well, yeah, that's a bit of an unknown.
		I mean, I have heard of the National Reconnaissance Office here in Australia, but I'm not sure whether it's the same agency as the Joint Signals Directorate over here.
		It seems to be a very similar function, and I believe that they are exchanging information is without a doubt.
		I mean, it's common knowledge that the signals intelligence gleaned from Pine Gap is minusculely shared with the Australians on a need-to-know basis, but primarily transmitted straight to the UK and the USA.
		The public news, when it was the big news in the 70s and the scandal of the Whitlam administration, I mean, Goth Whitlam, one of our former prime ministers, was allegedly going to do an overhaul and an inspection of the facility.
		This was shortly before a classic CIA-engineered coup in Australia and the opposition party was put in power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've got to stop everybody and say, hold on for a moment.
		I'm going to hold on to everybody through the break.
		Linda Moulton Howe and Company in Queensland, Australia, and Stanton Friedman, your where stand?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada, east of Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's quite a spread.
		More of it in a moment from an area near Dreamland.
		is Dreamland.
unidentified		The End
		From the Kingdom of Nineveh, your Hearing Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what it is.
		From Nexus Magazine, our guest with Linda Moulton Howe in Queensland, Australia, as well as with Stan Friedman in New Brunswick, in Canada.
		That's amazing, even to me.
		And we'll get back to them both in a moment.
		That's 1-800-557-4627.
		You've got nothing to lose but the facts.
		Well, all right.
		This is such a very, very, very unusual opportunity for the parties involved and for the audience across America that I thought it entirely worthy of bringing them back for a short time together.
		From Queensland in Australia, Linda Moulton Howe and her guest from Nexus Magazine and from New Brunswick, Canada.
		Once again, you are all together.
		Stanton Friedman, are you there?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how about in Australia?
unidentified		Yes, Art, we are here.
		I'm with Duncan Rhodes, the editor of Nexus Magazine, and Stanton's very good question about the involvement or question, the involvement of the National Reconnaissance Organization of the United States and the Central Intelligence Agency.
		Does it have presence here from the standpoint of discussion in Australia?
		During the break, Duncan Rhodes went to a file that he has on intelligence pacts between the UK, Australia, and the United States that I think should be very valuable to share here and get Stanton's comment.
		Duncan?
		Yes, well, the question about the CIA and the NRO led me to sort of dig up the file, as Linda said.
		I found more significantly the presence of the NSA, which is often referred to, I believe, over there as no such agency.
		But it is rather significant and it's very interesting timing.
		As I said before, Pine Gap and several other bases around the planet, including Australia and one in the UK, specifically a base at Menworth Hill in the UK, are linked under what's called the UK-USA Agreement.
		Now this is a very, very secret agreement.
		To this day, no government will acknowledge the existence of the treaty nor make public the activities and projects that place under its auspices.
		And I may just read out a couple of paragraphs here because you'll see how it links back in with Stanton.
		In July this year, the UK-USA Agreement will be 50 years old, indicating that it was set up very similar to the timing of the first atomic bomb test and also the alleged Roswell crash in New Mexico vicinity.
		It was born in secrecy, and I'm reading here out of our article which we published in August 95.
		Born in secrecy, it will continue to operate in secrecy, linking the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, Korea, and the NATO nations in a peak security agreement.
		The United Kingdom-United States of America agreement is one of the most important treaties ever entered into by the English-speaking world and one of the least well-known.
		Professor Desmond Ball of Australia's National University has described the UK-USA Pact as, quote, the ties that bind, unquote, a treaty which obligates Australia to cooperate with the other UK-USA partners.
		To this date, it has never been officially acknowledged by any country.
		The nature of the UK-USA agreement has provided its organs with a unique autonomy and ability to pry into any avenue that proves interesting.
		Top secret military bases such as FineGap, Narunga, which is also in Australia, and Menwith Hill in the UK operate under the UK-USA Pact.
		So too does the clandestine National Security Agency.
		The initial idea of the agreement was to carve up the globe into spheres of cryptological influence.
		Each country was assigned specific targets according to its potential for maximum intercept coverage.
		UK-USA PACT brought together under a single umbrella the SIGINT, which is signals intelligence, organisations of the US, Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand.
		In recent years, Japan, Korea and the NATO nations have joined the PACT.
		Prior to the UK-USA agreement, an arrangement known as BRUSA, B-R-U-S-A, existed.
		RUSSA was a formalised cooperation between British and US communications intelligence agencies.
		Although top secret news of the UK-USA agreement leaked quickly to Moscow through Kim Philby, as one intelligence officer from America put it, the UK-USA agreement was, quote, like opening up a party line to Moscow Centre, end quote.
		Signatories to the UK-USA agreement conceded to standardised terminology, code words, intercept handling procedures and indoctrination oaths.
		Today, cooperation among PAC members occurs in areas such as monitoring radio broadcasts, undertaking covert action and assassinations, overhead reconnaissance, human intelligence, estimates, security intelligence, counter-intelligence, training, seconding and equipment.
		And there's one last paragraph here.
		The UK-USA agreement is a tiered agreement.
		The National Security Agency is called the first party.
		The Australian Defence Signals Directorate or the DSD, the British Government Communications Headquarters, or GCHQ, the Canadian Communications Security Establishment, which is GCSE, and the New Zealand Government's Communications Security Bureau, which is the GCSB, are all second parties.
		Remaining countries are designated third parties.
		So in winding up here, the first party, the primary intelligence sharer on this agreement is the NSA.
		National Security Agency of the United States.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Which certainly has a role in the UFO scene.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, Stanton, what is your own comment on this pact that has existed since 1947 to 97, celebrating its 50th anniversary, clearly showing that Menwood and Pine Gap are probably bookends of a global monitoring system with its heart in the United States?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have no quarrel at all with the notion, although I should point out for those who are concerned about such things, that the NSA didn't actually come into existence until 52.
		But so it hasn't had 50 years, but the agreement with its NSA predecessors has.
		I should point out, too, since most of our listeners are in the state, that the NSA is the big guy on the block.
		Everybody's heard of the CIA, but NSA never says anything, no such agency, estimated by the Washington Post to have an annual block budget that is not under direct congressional control of at least $10 billion, a couple of times larger than the CIA.
		And they can listen in on telephone conversations across the Atlantic.
		The best computers in the world were developed before them.
		They can pick up a key word and record everything that follows from that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my guess would be that this conversation set off alarm bells about 45 minutes ago.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think so.
		But, you know, the NSA is great at game playing.
		You know, I get a lot of laughs at my lectures, and Linda has seen it happen when I talk about the legal action against the NSA back in 1979, where they were taken to court to do a search of their files for UFO material.
		And they came back saying that they'd found 239 documents.
		We only knew about 18.
		We went to them because the CIA had 18 NSA documents on UFOs and a list that they put out of 57 documents from other agencies dealing with UFOs.
		And we wound up in court trying to get these 18 NSA documents, and they come back.
		They found 239, but 79 were from other agencies.
		That left 160.
		They threw out four, and their own 156 they refused to release, even to a federal court judge.
		And their justification, which was a 21-page, we now know, top-secret umbra document, an affidavit, the judge saw it, but the lawyer for our side didn't see it at that time.
		And they justified withholding these documents on grounds of national security.
		The judge was so impressed, he agreed with them that they should not release the documents.
		The Federal Court of Appeals agreed with the judge.
		Supreme Court wouldn't hear the case.
		When we finally got the affidavit, it was 75% blacked out.
		And you can't scrape off the black either.
		Well, this year, there's been a change in the whole attitude about how you handle old classified material that is more than 25 years old.
		A new executive order was passed or signed by President Clinton in April of 95, 12958.
		These things are always known by numbers for some strange reason.
		And it was ignored until after the election.
		Everybody felt that Clinton wouldn't be reelected, so they could ignore this and they'd go back to the old ways.
		There's a significant, actually two significant points made in this regulation, which are directly pertinent to what we're talking about.
		One is that the old philosophy was, if in doubt about keeping something more than 25 years old classified, keep it classified.
		The new policy is, if in doubt, declassify, which is a remarkable switch.
		The other thing is that automatically, in April, the year 2000, documents not previously withheld by agencies, which suddenly have to review like crazy, will automatically be declassified.
		So all the agencies suddenly are working like crazy to get their stuff reviewed so they can keep the hot stuff away.
		And the NSA, early this year, took a new look at this document, this 21-page top-secret umbra, which we now know to be on it, document, and decided to only censor about 25%.
		And in addition, they took the remarkable step, at first it seemed like it anyway, of releasing those 156 NSA UFO documents, intercept, signal intelligence, communications intelligence.
		Now, they did it in a sort of tricky fashion.
		There's about two lines per page for each of those events.
		Now, instead of using black lines all over the place, which they did in the original affidavit, which guarantees a laugh at my lectures on television, they white out the stuff that they're not releasing.
		So you can get it now from the NSA Freedom of Information Act if ask for their standard UFO packet and get a big fat pile of stuff.
		And they're being cute about it.
		I mean, whiteout, it's hardly impressive the way blackout.
unidentified		It doesn't show up on TV.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
		May I interject and ask a question?
		Here we have the Freedom of Information Act, which Stanton is talking about.
		And I wonder if there is the equivalent of that in Australia.
		Are you able to pry information in any way similar to the Freedom of Information Act down there?
unidentified		Very similar to America.
		You need to be very specific about what document number and where it is located before you can retrieve it.
		The main hurdle to jump here in Australia is the expense.
		When they first brought in the Freedom of Information Act, there was a sort of a great sort of pat on the back routine going around about freedom of information now in Australia and it's cheap access.
		But steadily since that date, several, well, it was about a decade ago, they've increased the prices and the fees.
		The bureaucracy has steadily made it more and more expensive and harder and harder.
		And there are certainly areas under the guise of national security where documents will not be released.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, here is what Stanton said earlier, and here's my idea.
		If there is the connection that you all have described or alluded to between America and Australia from a security point of view, they occasionally, as Stanton said, make mistakes and release something they don't mean to.
		So I wonder if we could get some coordination and have requests made on this end and that end and then combine the results and maybe end up with something meaningful.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like a great idea.
unidentified		It's a wonderful idea, but I've got to say, in some ways, it has been tried.
		I mean, there have been several questions asked in our federal parliament about, to the Prime Minister and to the Defence Minister, would they even confirm or deny the existence of the existence of the UK agreement?
		Sorry, the UK-USA agreement.
		And in both times, one time in 1977 and again, Senator Joe Valentine in 1986, they would refuse, they basically refused to provide any information which might confirm or deny speculation on the intelligence and security matters raised by those questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but perhaps we can get specific, very specific about our requests and turn up something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santon, what do you think?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we might.
		They're pretty good at avoiding these things.
		I should add there's another card being played right now.
		The new government in England, one of its platform planks, if you will, was finally the installation of a Freedom of Information Act.
		There isn't one as of now, but there's been a lot of pressure to put one in.
		In Canada, we have an Access to Information Act, and there are modest charges.
		The copy charges can hit you sometimes.
		But in England, they're talking about how they will install this new system.
		And, you know, in England, they've got the Official Secrets Act, and a researcher named Nicholas Redfern went after UFO stuff, and some of it will indeed be released in the year 2075.
unidentified		2075?
		Yeah, I don't think I'm going to be around then.
		Denton, what do you personally think is going to take to break this open at the level we all need, which is governments being honest?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the biggest thing that could happen, the most beneficial, I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying that what would be most beneficial is if one of the major news media groups, say the New York Times, the Washington Post, the 60 Minutes, really would put the same amount of zeal into blowing the lid off the cosmic watergate as went into blowing it off the political watergate.
		And as I recall, there was something like 16 people working full-time at the Washington Post.
		The problem is, as you know, and recent publications in the United States certainly indicate this, the major media have turned a deaf ear to UFOs other than to use it as an excuse to say silly season is here again, that sort of thing.
		The U.S. News and World Report, I mean, it's the 50th anniversary of Kenneth Arnold's case and of the Roswell incident coming up, so there's UFO mania everywhere.
		The media complain about Roswell makes commercial contact, it's in U.S. News and World Report.
		And a two-page article, March 31st, let me quote, they say that they're celebrating the 50th anniversary of something that almost certainly never happened, the crash of a flying saucer in Roswell in 1947, into the biggest, most lucrative live event of the summer.
		Popular Science, the June issue, covers story about Roswell.
		The gal spent three days down there.
		The only book she mentions is a debunking book.
		I mean, I should be pleased that I guess I'm called a veteran crash sleuth, whatever that's supposed to mean.
		They don't mention my book, Crash at Corona, or the three other books that have been published.
unidentified		In all of the interviews, Stanton, with people who are now dead, who did talk on videotape as being personally involved in some aspect of a retrieval operation.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course, they don't get into that.
		And as a matter of fact, in the popular science article, they say Walter Hunt, the public information officer, put out the press release at the direct command of then-Colonel Blanchard, later a four-star general.
		They say he's one of the last people live.
		Well, I spent a week in New Mexico in April with the science editor of Stern Magazine, which is sort of life and time combined, the biggest circulation weekly in Europe.
		It's in German, of course.
		And we talked not only to Walter, of course, but we talked to, for example, Bill Brazil, son of the rancher who found the initial wreckage out in the debris field and who himself found pieces out there.
		We were in his home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Santon, we're going to have to pick up on this after the top of the hour.
		I want to give Linda an opportunity to give her information out because we're going to terminate the Australian side of things here at the top of the hour.
		So, Linda?
unidentified		Okay, it's been great art, and my fax number in the United States is Area Code 215-4919842.
		That's Area Code 215-4919842.
		I welcome any communication there on this topic, bismuth, magnesium, anything that we cover.
		And next weekend, I will be reporting again from someplace else on the coast of Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Linda, I want to thank you and remind you that it's almost 15 weeks now since we've been waiting for that photograph of Miss Idaho.
unidentified		Well, I promise when I get back, I will get something to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I promise that.
		In case she didn't tell you down there at Nexus, there is a photograph of Linda Howe as Miss Idaho, something you might want to get and demand down there.
		She's blushing.
		That's right, and publish in Nexus.
unidentified		Sounds like cover material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		All right.
		Thank you both.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And good afternoon or evening to you, whatever it is.
unidentified		It's noon here, and I know it's night there where you are and where Stan is, and my best to you both.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Take care, and good night.
		All right, folks.
		In a moment, we're going to take a break, and then we will go to New Brunswick once again.
		And after this very, very interesting conversation, we will talk at length with Santin Friedman.
		And, of course, you'll get an opportunity to call in.
		Nine, it's a very, very international kind of night.
		And good morning to everybody at NSA.
		Hope you're enjoying the show from an area near Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland.
		AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		Important from the Kingdom of Nine.
		We continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 area code.
		Now again, here's Art Ben.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Well, good evening, everybody, or good morning as the case may be across all these time zones.
		Stanton Friedman in New Brunswick is our guest.
		And what an interesting first hour.
		I'm not even sure that's ever been done like that before.
		I love doing first-time things, and tomorrow we'll bring yet another, which I won't tell you about right now.
		I will briefly tell you that my book, The Quickening, is still available in the second printing.
		It's a first edition autographed copy, and the second edition appears, I mean second printing, I'll never get it right, appears to be going with the speed of the first.
		So if you want an autographed edition that is not going to be available very much longer, first edition autographed copy of The Quickening, Bible, the number to call right now is 1-800-864-7991.
		That's 1-800-864-7991.
		And we will discuss with Stanton a bit the weather question.
		And again, in the American Northwest, tornadoes in Washington, even Canada, unbelievable.
		There's no question about it.
		We are undergoing some sort of weather change.
		I also have a fax here indicating that on the front page of the Seattle newspaper today, they're reporting two huge, their words, new holes in the ozone layer, and that it is worsening at a very, very fast clip.
		And that is one of the items that you'll find described in my book, The Quickening.
		And again, the number for that, and I'm telling you they're going, so don't wait, is 1-800-864-7991-5.
unidentified		You hear a lot of new and wild stuff listening to Art Bell.
		Now you can read about that stuff in After Dark, the official Art Bell newsletter.
		This color newsletter covers the juiciest and most delicious subjects that get talked about right here in the middle of the night, and it showcases the best of Art Bell's website.
		The newsletter captures the highlights from art shows and delivers them to your mailbox every month.
		Afterdark contains color pictures, text from Art's Hot interviews, how to order taped copies of Arts Hot Interviews, and much more.
		Subscribe today by calling Toll Free, 1-800-917-4278.
		You'll get 16 sizzling pages and 12 monthly issues for only $39.95, four and a little more.
		Call right now, 1-800-917-4278, and start your collection of Afterdark newsletters.
		Call Toll Free, 1-800-917-4278.
		Call right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, back now to New Brunswick in Canada and a nuclear physicist named Santon Friedman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you know, Santon, it occurred to me that a lot of my audience, because we have so many new affiliates since the last time you were on, a lot of the audience has no idea who you are.
unidentified		Oh, come on, Art.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Everybody knows who I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Then let's try it this way, Santon.
		Just in case there might be somebody who doesn't know about you, tell us a little bit about your background.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Bachelor's and Master's in Physics, University of Chicago.
		Carl Sagan and I were classmates for three years, 14 years in industry working only on far-out, highly advanced, classified, eventually canceled research and development programs, things like nuclear airplanes, fission and fusion rockets, nuclear power plants for space, little companies like General Electric, Westinghouse, General Motors, TRW, Aerojet, General, McDonnell Douglas.
		Obviously, I couldn't hold the job.
		I've been interested in flying saucers since 1958, gave my first lecture in 1967.
		Since then, I've lectured something over 600 colleges, 100 professional groups, all 50 states, 9 provinces, 10 other countries.
		I've published more than 70 papers and two books.
		The newest one is Top Secret Magic, M-A-J-I-C, and just going into its fourth printing came out last year.
		And Crash at Corona is in its sixth printing, the definitive story of the Roswell incident.
		I'm the original investigator on Roswell, beginning in 1978.
		And boy, that sure kept me busy this year with travel all over the place, 13 overseas trips in two years.
		And I go to Italy on Thursday and then to London a couple weeks later.
		And I'll be in Roswell for the Big Wing Day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I was going to ask.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I'm one of the 12 speakers.
		Linda will be there, too, according to the last program that I saw.
		And, you know, all the hotel rooms in town have been reserved for something like three months.
		They're putting people up 75 miles away.
unidentified		Wow.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Of course, there's not much traffic between those towns in Roswell.
		Well, Roswell's a town of 50,000, 192 miles from Albuquerque.
		And it's, you know, mania, if you will, on the media stuff.
		Cover story, Popular Science, in June.
		The popular mechanics for next month, next month, not the current issue, which has an Area 51 cover, but after the 10th, there will be an article in Popular Mechanics that comes up With a totally different explanation for Roswell, Time magazine has been talking to Roswell researchers.
		Lord knows what they're going to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, here's a good question which should bring an easy answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you were the original investigator on Roswell, and since certain publications are now coming out with stories, and I can paraphrase, the 50th anniversary of a myth.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you answer that?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd say these are people who haven't done their homework, who have, you know, they're accusing Roswell of making commercial contact.
		It's interesting that they highlight the stories trying to sell newspapers and magazines and whatever.
		There's no question that at least one, and Kevin Randall and I have differences in degree about some of the details, but we spoke together today, and we agree that indeed at least one crash-flying saucer of alien origin was recovered by the U.S. government in New Mexico in early July 1947,
		that there was strong intimidation of witnesses, that bodies were recovered, that the Project Mogul explanation or any other we've listened to stands up under careful scrutiny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any single best piece of evidence, Stanton, or is it a compilation of evidence that...
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		People are always looking for the single best piece.
		Well, I like testimony, for example, of then Colonel Thomas Jefferson DuBose, who was chief of staff of the 8th Air Force based in Fort Worth, Texas.
		I spoke to him in his home before he died, of course.
		I'm not one of those people who can do remote viewing.
		And his testimony about being told in no uncertain terms by his boss's boss, the head of the Strategic Air Command, a guy named Clements McMullen, to cover up the story.
		This is in early July 1947, one-on-one conversation, three instructions.
unidentified		Cover it up.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't care how you do it.
		Send one of your colonel couriers up here today with some of that wreckage.
		And I don't want you ever to talk about it again, not even with your buddy Roger Raimi, who was DuBose's boss and head of the 8th Air Force.
		Now, when you hear that from a man who's a West Point grad who had 18,000 hours as a pilot, who established the Air Force's search and rescue teams, you've got to be impressed, especially when you hear it firsthand in his home.
		That kind of testimony, you know, you'd love it on your side in a court of law.
		Major Jesse Marcel has come under nasty, vicious attacks by people who never met him, who have misrepresented his military record.
		He was the intelligence officer for the only atomic bombing group in the whole darn world.
		I was in his home.
		I was the first to talk to him.
		He's dead now.
		I've been in the home of his son, just a medical doctor, a pilot, a flight surgeon.
		I'd sure like both of those on my side in a court of law.
		So, you know, it's a much more impressive story than you would gather from, say, reading popular science or certainly U.S. News and World Report.
		And I'm sure the attacks will continue.
		What we're really hoping will happen, and I'll be in Roswell from July 2nd through the 6th, is that new witnesses will come forward.
		I'm sure they're going to have a major tourist event down there.
		And I was just down in Williamsburg, Virginia, and that's a major tourist attraction.
		Obviously, there really were no Civil War battles or Revolutionary War battles.
		This is all malarkey to try to attract people to these tourist attractions out there.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, it's nonsense.
		Mogul, the whole mogul explanation was really an attempt, wasn't it, to explain the hemorrhaging that was going on because it was so obvious that they had told a lie that it was time to retell the lie, in effect, saying, here's why we lied, because it really was a secret project at that time.
		So here's the new lie.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you know, what's strange here is that the Air Force has gotten away with lying about flying saucers without the media digging into it since at least 47 and then strongly in 1955 and 1969 when they closed Project Blue Book, and they're coming back to the same lies.
		In Top Secret Magic, I have a letter from an Air Force colonel to a United States Senator, a one-page letter, and I've seen similar letters to 25 other Congress people, both senators and congressmen.
		And it's chocked full of lies, and they're getting away with it.
		It took me five pages plus attachments to respond to these lies.
		And so, you know, it's really distressing that some people will buy into Mogul.
		Now, for your listeners who may not be fully aware, Mogul was a project that had a secret objective.
		They wanted to be able to determine when and if the Soviets would explode a nuclear weapon.
		This is in the late 40s, and they didn't know how long it would take before they would catch up with us, if you will.
		And it was hard to venture over the Soviet Union back then.
		We didn't have U-2s or anything or satellites.
		So they had a project to set up a string of balloons, about 600 feet long.
		They varied, but 23 balloons at 20-foot intervals, plus they would have sonoboys, devices for listening to sound waves.
		The idea was that the Russians exploded an atomic bomb, it would send sound waves all the way around the world, just like certain things, sounds travel underwater for thousands of miles.
		And you'd need a constant altitude balloon, so that's tricky.
		You've got ballast, you've got radar reflectors, you've got a whole bunch of stuff.
		Now, obviously, it's pretty hard to hide something that's 600 feet long, and the idea was to have it over the United States, not over the Soviet Union.
		And there was nothing about this system that in and of itself was classified.
		The balloons were standard balloons.
		The Sano Boys, the other junk, would all have little labels on the, you know, where it was from.
		All the ranchers in the area had recovered balloons because weather balloons are all over the place in New Mexico.
		Roswell was the home of the only atomic bombing group in the world.
		Roswell Army Airfield was just there, and it's still impressive.
		They've got a 13,000-foot runway there, about the third longest in the United States, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they called Mogul a balloon train, indicating it was more than a single.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was like 23 balloons, standard weather balloons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And at the same interval.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then Major Marcel, had there been one or 20, would have instantly, instantly recognized a weather balloon.
unidentified		One or two.
unidentified		Of course.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and not only that, he never reported seeing string holding these things together.
		The radar reflectors were flimsy kind of things.
		They had to be very lightweight, you understand.
		So sort of like kites, also wood and very thin aluminum foil, and any three-year-old can tear.
		And so he was familiar with balloons.
		He had courses in radar, the use of radar for monitoring things in the sky.
		He served in the Pacific.
		Colonel Blanchard, same way.
		You know, there was war fought, and they were both involved in it, and Roswell himself launched balloons every day.
		And so there's no question that he would have recognized.
		One of the things that impressed him, and from our first conversation, he said this was that there was nothing conventional.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, all this is very impressive and undeniable.
		If your soulmate, soul class, were here, what would he say confronted with what you just said?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Phil would dither.
		He would say that, well, Major Marcel, he lied all about his background because there's a guy named Robert Todd who's shown that his military record was a bunch of lies.
		He loves to say things.
		You can't sue for somebody who's dead, unfortunately.
		So Major Marcel's son, who himself handled wreckage and recognizes wreckage, he served on military aircraft accident investigative teams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		He cannot sue on behalf of his father because you can't libel a dead man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I talked to the major's son here on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I interviewed him extensively, and he remembers the symbols on the bars, for example.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Like nothing he has ever seen before or since.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said he put his fingers across them and could feel the raised or indented, I forget what he said.
unidentified		Embossed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Embossed.
		Yeah, that's right.
		And so there's all of that still firsthand alive testimony.
		And it just seems indisputable.
		Do you expect any further, is it going to be another 50 years or is there going to be some final release of information?
		What's the best hope that somebody else or more people come forward?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's several best hopes.
		One of them is certainly that somebody who has a piece of wreckage.
		There's the story of a pilot named Patty Henderson who was at the base, who was an outstanding pilot during World War II, and who in 1981, after reading an article in a tabloid about crash saws, the first book, Bill Moore and I did the research.
		Charles Berlitz wrote the book, came out in 1980, and that led to tabloid stories and so forth.
		And when Pappy saw that, and he's called Pappy, his hair turned white during the war, which is not surprising, even though he was fairly young.
		Happened to a lot of people.
		Anyway, he was an outstanding pilot.
		He flew all the VIPs and all the equipment out to Kwajalein for the nuclear test Operation Crossroads in 1946.
		I've seen the paperwork on this.
		Anyway, Pappy in 1981 told his wife that he had always wanted to tell her, but it was classified, but now it was in the newspapers, so it must not be, that he flew some of that wreckage to Wright Field and he was aware of the bodies.
		Well, I had his wife, Sappho Henderson, on the Unsolved Mysteries program in 1989.
		I'd located her and they used her.
		After the program, it turned out that Pape had also told an old-time friend, at least 15 years, a dentist, about this back in 78 on his honor as a former naval officer not to talk about it.
		And much more interestingly, in 1979, he'd actually handed him a piece of the wreckage.
		Took it back, unfortunately.
		Now, if Pappy had a piece, and you remember the proclivity of World War II veterans, GIs picked up whatever they could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Then there were probably other pieces out there, and I've got a lab all ready to go with analysis.
		So a major hope is that somebody who's got something in a drawer and has worried about it ever since will get out an address where I can be reached.
		I'm not out to put somebody on television who doesn't want to be there.
		I just want the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santon, we'll do that.
		I want to stop you for a second, though.
		I want to ask you about, you're well aware now, it's been a couple of years or a year and a half, of this bismuth magnesium stuff that I have.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, I'm truly fascinated by that art.
unidentified		I mean, the aluminum stuff, well, okay, forget that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And I'm intrigued all the pieces.
		As you remember, the original letter from the source of that sounded like science fiction.
		You remember some of the details on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		But Linda went through all every machination you can imagine in getting these pieces tested.
		And we still are at a point where nobody knows what they are, what it's for.
		Nobody can duplicate it.
		And I'll tell you what, Stanton, if we can get together physically, I will arrange for you to have a piece.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'll keep that in mind.
		I should point out something.
		One of the difficulties, and Linda and I have talked about this at some length.
		I'd worked with a lot of crazy materials when I was in industry.
		And one of the problems you run into is if you have elements that are definitely here, and certainly bismuth and magnesium art, then you always worry about maybe this is something that had to do with a super secret weapons related.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, of course.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You know, and that's where it gets hard because nobody can step forward and say, oh, yeah, we use that in our laser weapon system or, you know, that kind of thing.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So it gets to be real tricky on that score.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does, but Stanton, let me ask you this: How many other people are in possession of material as continuously anomalous as I have?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You should be aware of it if there are more, if there's more out there.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I certainly, I've had people contact me and say they have a piece.
		Well, why do you think it's related to Roswell?
		Well, somebody found it in New Mexico, less than 50 miles from Roswell.
		Big deal is all I can say.
		It's got to have peculiar properties.
		And so your stuff, that many layers of those two metals, and one's dense and one's very low density, and, you know, different materials, that it's not easy to make something like that.
		That's not the kind of hoax that a guy can do in his basement.
		There's no question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So my question was, are you aware of anybody else out there who has gone through the process we've gone through with materials of this sort or even different?
unidentified		No.
unidentified		No.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, I am not.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And you know what happened with that silver-copper stuff at the museum?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I do indeed, yes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And I personally wish one should do analysis first and publicity later.
		I'll tell you, I talked to an RCMP officer here once about you get a big, Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
		Right.
		You get a big crime, you ask for people to call, and you get hundreds of calls.
		I said, what percentage are useful?
		Two or three percent.
		That's how we solve most crimes.
		You expect noise, in other words.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		Nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman is my guest.
		He's in New Brunswick.
		I'm in the high desert in an area near that called Dreamland.
		This is a program called Dreamland.
		Dreamland The talk station, AM 1500 KSTP.
		AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		AM 1500 KSTP.
		From the Kingdom of Nine, you're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		Good evening or good morning, as the case may be.
		I now have an opportunity to advertise something I never even knew existed.
		This is an amazing product.
		Now, anybody familiar with scanning out there, scanners and scanning, will be familiar with truncated radio, truncated radio, trunked radio systems.
		Now, this normally means, if you listen on a scanner, that you may hear public works on one frequency, and a moment later, a police chase issues on the same frequency, and these things move around frequency-wise.
		Well, I'll be damned.
		I never knew, and until this moment, I never knew it existed, but there is now a new scanner, the BC235 Trunk Tracker Scanner Radio, handheld.
		And don't ask me how it does this, but it actually follows a truncated conversation.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would guess since these are in the clear, that this is legal, but I'm not sure for how long it will remain legal.
		The Z Green company has acquired 10 of these.
		1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
		That's all they've got.
		This obviously also works as a conventional scanner.
		It has 300 channels.
		It has a backlit LCD display.
		Band search, priority channel, data button, extra battery and charger are included.
		And I am amazed, absolutely amazed that this technology has popped up.
		But here it is.
		It's the BC-235 Trunk Tracker Scanner, and I bet it's not going to be legal for long.
		So I would grab one.
		There's only 10 of them, so 10 of you are going to get lucky.
		That's what it amounts to.
		$329.95.
		And the scanner freaks are going to jump on this hard.
		So if you want one, early in the morning is what I recommend at 7.30.
		The number is 1-800-522-8863.
		That's 1-800-522-8863.
		All right, back now to New Brunswick and Canada and nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman.
		Stanton, are you there?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is amazing to me, Stanton, that...
		I just read that commercial, and that blows me away.
		They figured out a way to follow truncated signals, and as they jump in frequency, and that amazes me.
		We are jumping ahead so far and so fast in technology.
		We've got cloning on the horizon, probably being done privately already.
		And do you think that we are moving too fast for our own good?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Friedman's Law, if you will, immodestly described by me, technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable Way.
		The future is not an extrapolation of the past.
		You have to change how you do things.
		And one of the things that makes a new project more likely to succeed is knowing that what you're trying to accomplish can be done.
		For example, by somebody flying a saucer in your neighborhood.
		The Soviet A-bomb is a good example of that.
		Hitler didn't know you could build an atomic bomb.
		He didn't spend much money on it.
		He built rockets.
		He knew you could build them.
		The Russians, on the other hand, after World War II, absolutely knew you could build atomic bombs.
		At least certainly Earthwings can.
		And if Americans can, then the Russians can.
		So even if they ran into trouble, they would know that if they kept that, they could succeed.
		So some of the new areas of technology, part of its competition, nothing like capitalism and all that stuff.
		Just look at computers over the last five years.
		Look at the size of hard disks and the computation.
		It's truly incredible.
		It builds on itself.
		But a lot of the key steps may have been achieved because somebody was trying for something new and sort of thinking, hey, gee, how could we do that?
		For example, there were wind tunnel tests of things the shape of a disk shortly after Roswell.
		Somebody saying, hey, gee, I wonder if these things are interesting from a list to drag viewpoint, all that sort of stuff.
		So I think that on the one hand, just from an absolute and abstract sense, there's no question we're moving more rapidly than we can handle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are clicking.
		Now, let me ask the broader question.
		As you look back, history is an accomplished fact.
		It's already done.
		We can look at the modern technological age.
		Is there any point that you can point to that suggests historically an unaccountable, unaccountably large leap in technological capability?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the difficulty with answering the question is that certainly the amount of money you spend has something to do with this, and that's where the annual black budget comes into the picture.
		The total National Science Foundation budget, say, three years ago, was about $3.3 billion.
		That covers biology, technology, mathematics, astronomy, you know, all over the place.
		The total budget of the three nuclear weapons labs that year was $3.5 billion.
		That's just three nuclear weapons.
		The annual black budget is estimated at about $30 billion.
		Now, when you think of what you can buy in terms of top-notch people doing exciting research with the best equipment, and I get angry at what I call the ancient academics suggesting, Carl Sagan did this in one place, that, you know, you've got to have freedom to do good research.
		And, hey, I've been to Los Alamos, I've been to Oak Ridge, I've been to Hanford and a whole bunch of other places doing highly classified research.
		And tell you something, got the best equipment around, some of the best people around.
		And, you know, the public isn't aware of it.
		I get people I've been lecturing all over the world.
		New Mexico, what's there besides sands?
		You tell them two of the three nuclear weapons labs are in White Sands Missile Range and, you know, the Kirtland Air Force Base, all the rest of it, and they're astonished.
		The average American has no idea of how much really good research is going on.
		That's black budget stuff.
		I don't mean just classified programs whose existence, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real black budget.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, real black budget.
		I mean, the stealth aircraft was built.
		52 of them, I think it was, were built.
		Over $10 billion was spent in something like a 15-year period before anything was said to the public about it.
		So what I'm trying to say is not that there haven't been strange leaps, but on the most sophisticated technology, we really have no way to judge whether the new developments per billion dollars spent is high or low.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I follow you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And so it's one of the difficulties.
		It's one of the things wrong with having such a large black budget.
		Not only can money be wasted, but all kinds of good stuff can go on, and the public isn't benefiting because of the classified nature of the projects.
		Things that could have assisted us in all kinds of other areas we don't know about because it's classified.
		All right, so, you know, there's a whole area here for public discussion that doesn't get discussed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, before we get to the top of the air, I've got two things I want to relate to you.
		One, very recently, this will take a moment to explain, Stanton.
		Very recently, I had a sighting of a disc.
		I'm talking about four days ago now, five days ago now.
		It wasn't just mine, and here's how it happened.
		I'll do it very quickly.
		It was 11.40 in the morning.
		My wife and I went down to shut our gate.
		That's after the local UPS and, you know, so forth have come.
		We would shut our gate at that point.
		And because I'm a day sleeper, and so we were coming back, and there was a twin contrail which was coming from the east-southeast, headed to the west-northwest.
		And it was really gaining an altitude quickly, so quickly that I said, wow, I wonder if that's some kind of launch.
		And so I ran in and got my binoculars, and I was able to resolve then at the end of the contrail that it was a military jet.
		No big deal.
		And I began to go back into the house.
		My wife said, what the hell is that?
		And we looked about halfway back in the visible contrail, and just off to the side of the contrail, God Stanton, here's a disc.
		No question about it.
		Visible eye.
		And I was able to resolve it very well with the binoculars.
		I've got a very high-powered pair.
		And this thing was following along next contra.
		then it stopped dead.
		Stopped absolutely dead.
		And my wife and I stood there in three or four minutes.
		And then this thing starts taking off toward the south and gaining an altitude like a bat out of hell until it turned into a dot and could not be resolved on binoculars any longer.
		And I was so staggered.
		It's only the second thing I've ever seen in my life of its sort, daytime, this time.
		And I brought my wife on the air again.
		And one additional thing you should know.
		The sun was essentially behind it.
		The jet I could resolve as a metallic object.
		I couldn't quite tell you which kind of jet it was.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Clearly an airplane, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		And the other object, the disc, was glowing.
		And when I say glowing, I mean like a second sun.
		So it was emitting some sort of energy.
		There's no question about it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Did that color change while you watched it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It did not.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It was the same when it was standing still as when it was moving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		That's it.
		That's the total description of the sighting.
		But, you know, and one might say, well, the jet let off a flare.
		No, it didn't.
		Not one that followed it, then took off to the south and gained an altitude to the point where it was no longer resolvable.
		It was an amazing daytime sighting, and we're still sort of stunned by it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Any idea the relative size compared to the jet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Assuming that, and it was very difficult to judge altitude of the two objects, but assuming they were at roughly equal altitudes, and I think they were, I would say the object was two or three times the size of the jet.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Ooh, okay, so this is a big one.
unidentified		Yeah.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And I presume, could you hear the jet?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was at enough, as I was saying to you, it was really, really at a high altitude and going up fast.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But this thing stopped dead.
unidentified		Stopped dead.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And took off rapidly when it took off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		To the south and mostly up, but to the south.
		And we did not lose it at the horizon.
		We lost it at altitude.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, maybe it's a super special black project, but aside from that, I sure can't find another explanation.
		Can you?
		And if we got something that flies like that, what the heck are we building jets for?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the question, all right.
		And there are a lot of people who think that we have two very distinct technological courses that we're following.
		One fairly conventional that NASA frequently demonstrates, and another that is far, far beyond that.
		Do you subscribe to that theory?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we are trying to get really exotic, really far out.
		And something that people often don't think about in this connection is there are questions of economics.
		You know, you could have the world's greatest materials, stuff like what was found at Roswell.
		But if it costs you $5,000 a pound to make this stuff, you don't use it in automobiles or normal airplanes, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So, and it also may be that you're working very hard to get the cost down and the rate at which you can build the things up.
		In other words, if it takes, if everything's got to be hand-done and super special and high-tech, super high-tech, you may be only able to build one or two or three because it takes two pounds of unoptenium per craft and you have trouble making unoptenium.
		But, you know, it's as good a word as unknowing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it's a great word.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I like it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So what I'm saying is, I would expect that we are pursuing electrogravitics, if you will, the energy of the vacuum, Dr. Hal Putoff's very exciting work that's going on.
		Other stuff that maybe we make one of a kind on the other hand.
		Well, why not a flying saucer, darn it, from someplace else that you saw?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Stan, here we go.
		So now let me bring you back to the bismag stuff.
		Again, electrogravitics.
		And that's where most of the high-powered people that have looked at this have said it was probably intended.
		If it was part of the skin of a craft, it could easily have been electrogravitic in nature.
		And so again, I say to you, let us meet or try to meet at some point if it becomes convenient privately.
		And I want to get you some of this and start another avenue of investigation.
		You said you've got a lab ready?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let them take a good look at this.
		All right.
		All right.
		One more item I want to get out, and then we'll fill up to the top of the hour here.
		It is as follows, a question to you.
		Art, please ask Stanton, and if you can't answer this, don't, Stanton, but if you've heard anything about the United States working on an anti-matter bomb no.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, everybody should be aware by now that in the universe there seems to be antimatter.
		Each of the major particles, neutrons, protons, etc., or charged particles anyway, the proton, the electron, has an anti-particle, roughly the same mass but opposite charge.
		And it is certainly true that if you combine somehow matter and antimatter, you get a release of a lot of energy.
		All the mass is converted to energy with some.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that we might understand, theoretically, Stan, how does the release of energy per an equal amount of material equate to what we build now, either as atomic or hydrogen bombs?
unidentified		What is much more efficient?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Neither one of those atomic or hydrogen bombs uses the potential energy that's available in most of the material.
		You only get a small percentage.
		What we're working with here is nuclear reactions involve, let's say, 200 million electron volts.
		And don't worry what an electron volt is.
		Chemical reactions, say hydrogen and oxygen, involve a few electron volts.
		So there's an enormous difference.
		Matter-antimatter would be even more than that.
		The problem is, since antimatter immediately annihilates when it runs into matter, how do you store the darns?
		In a bottle?
		You know, magnetically, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In some sort of plasma field, perhaps?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, electromagnetic fields, and it is possible that you make it continuously so you don't have a storage problem.
		That usually takes accelerators.
		We don't know how to do that very well.
		That doesn't mean we won't find out how to do it what we're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, matter-antimatter would have application as an incredible energy source, you know, peaceful use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But do you have any doubt at all, and because we both know there's billions into these black projects, and you know damn well they're working on this, that they would develop this for peaceful use or whether the first application that they would seek with their billions would be a matter-antimatter bomb?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, my own feeling is we got so many H-bombs already.
		Is it worth doing, in other words?
		Now, on the other hand, for a propulsion system, for a weapons delivery system, then that gets rather exciting because you don't take a lot of fuel and it doesn't take a lot of mass, and maybe you can get from here to there in no time flat.
		I can see where weapons delivery is really the crucial problem because we have defenses, we have radar, we have special radar, we have missiles to attack the missiles, you know, that kind of thing.
		So if you could have a super special weapons delivery system, there's no question in my mind that you'd go for that a lot more quickly than the bomb itself.
		Our bombs are good enough.
		Getting them to where we want them to go is getting more difficult as the radar gets better, you know.
		And we have had a constant tension between action and reaction, between weapon and defense.
		And sometimes one wins, sometimes the other wins.
		One of the objections I had to the Roswell Initiative, where demanding the government release not just about Roswell, all its information, but about all aspects of ufology, is that what if we have developed a new means of detecting something in the atmosphere two years ago?
		Should that be released?
		I don't think so.
		So it may be that we're in the middle of matter, antimatter, and a whole bunch of other things you can think about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm going to think of one right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen the STS-48 video?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I've seen a quick look at it, and I'm mystified like everybody else is mystified.
		And as you know, one of the key questions is how far away is the stuff?
		And are we testing some kind of an anti-Star Wars, if you will, system to cover a whole bunch of things?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure looked that way.
		Yeah, it does.
		And I must tell you that Richard Hoagland came to visit me within the last week.
		And Santon, he brought with him STS-50 video that I think nobody's seen.
		And I must tell you, the STS-50 video makes the 48 video look like kindergarten stuff.
		So I will have that to show you as well.
unidentified		Okay.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Looks like we've got to go out west.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it looks like you've got to come out west.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know you are coming to Roswell, after all.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you'll be a hop, skip, and a jumping away.
		And you never know, somebody may yet talk me to coming down to Roswell.
		For the big event.
		Oh, it's going to be a big event, all right.
		When we come back, I want to ask you a little bit about the weather.
		I don't know how carefully you've been watching it, Stanton, but it does not, as I've been telling my audience, take a candidate for employment at NASA to see that we are beginning to have some serious weather problems.
		And we're also getting reports of, for example, a 2,000-kilometer opening in the ozone, which worsened by a factor of 40% in 30 days.
		And now a report in the Seattle paper of two huge brand new ozone holes.
		And so I want to ask you a little bit about that sort of thing when we get back.
		So rest, and we will be back to you.
		Stanton Friedman is my guest.
		When we come back, we will get the phone lines open for a stand.
		The east of the Rockies line is 1-800-825-5033.
		And you'll hear the others in a moment.
		I'm Art Bell from an area near Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland.
		AM 1500 KSTB.
unidentified		The...
		The...
		From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Greenland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 area code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Stanton Friedman is my guest, nuclear physicist, and I guess he's been called the Flying Saucer Physicist.
		Interesting title.
		We'll ask him about that.
		And we'll get back to him in a moment.
		Hey, if you've been hesitating on levitating, now's the time.
		Call 1-800-275-2877.
		Levadron.
		All right.
		Back to New Brunswick and Stanton Friedman.
		Santon, how come they call it the Flying Saucer Physicist?
		Are you happy with that title?
		Do you mind that?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't mind it at all.
		They're worse things I've been called by far.
		And actually, it elevates my status.
		You know that, Art, after all.
		How many other people call themselves flying saucer physicists?
		As a matter of fact, I do know of two other good scientists, both with PhDs, which I don't have, who are physicists and who are seriously interested, but not spending their life as I am into UFOs.
		But, no, I think one of the problems with ufology, if we can call it that, is that everybody and this brother is an expert.
		They read two books, they carry a briefcase, and they're away from home, and suddenly they're an expert.
		And I've had people say, oh, I've read everything you've written, and you talk to them for two minutes, and you realize I've read one paper, and I've written 70, you know.
		So, no, I don't mind it at all.
		And I think part of the problem today with ufology is that even the people who have a serious interest don't seem to be aware of how much acceptance there is for the idea of flying saucer reality.
		I noticed that the popular science article says an astonishing 48% of the people, an astounding number of Americans, I'll read it, believe that spaceships have visited our planet, even though no physical evidence of this exists.
		That's an interesting statement.
		They say 48% of Americans believe UFOs are real, thus leaving the impression that 52% say they're not.
		Well, the very poll they're talking about showed 48% said they're real.
		Only 31% said they're not.
		And they have no opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they leave that one out generally.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they do.
		And I've been on shows where they take polls, television shows and stuff, you know, where you call in a certain number to say yes or no to a question.
		And you think the government's covering up the facts about flying saucers?
		92% agreed with that.
		I've been on with Philip Klass.
		Do you think UFOs are real?
		Only 83% said yes after we went at it.
		So why are they astonished?
		The polls have been consistent for 30 years, for goodness sakes.
		Now, the point I was getting at is that even though most people believe that the planet's being visited, most people still think that most people don't believe.
		And that affects their actions, whether they're an editor or an observer of a flying saucer or a thesis, somebody who can have students do theses.
		As long as you think most people don't believe, you're not going to talk about what you've seen.
		You're an obvious exception, of course.
		And you're not going to sponsor and you're not going to look at the subject in a scientific fashion because you don't want other people to laugh at you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's what I'm trying to do is lift the laughter curtain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, I'm going to lead you away from your field of expertise just for a second.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The weather clearly seems to be changing.
		The ozone problems we're having in the Antarctic, there's now reports of simple single-celled or multi-celled organisms that are undergoing actual genetic change.
		There's an ice field that's about to slip into the ocean, they say, shortly.
		In other words, things in the environment seem to be on move, Sam.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That flood that was in the Red River Valley, the Canadian side of that, that's a 500-year flood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You don't expect one like that except every 500 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And so there have been more weather extremes, if you will.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Hot, cold, you know, winds, all kinds of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of wind.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, over the last few years than is normal at all.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And obviously the question is, what does this mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, even the National Weather Service just came out with a warning yesterday, look out for the hurricane season this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They now expect it to be worse than ever.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and the thing is, you don't know how much of this is new communications, satellite observations.
		You're much more aware of things.
		Look at all the video cameras out there, the pictures the other day of that terrible twister that hit the town down south.
		You know, 20 years ago, they may not have known about it, and certainly you wouldn't get pictures while it was happening.
		I worry about it because the history of the planet, you know, it used to be thought that everything was gradual.
		That was the notion in geology and all the other things.
		Now we know that, hey, strange things happen suddenly, whether it's a comet hitting the planet, you know, or a change that is going to lead to massive changes in temperature.
		Like if a big hunk of ice breaks off, that could affect water levels over a big chunk of the world if it melts.
		And so I think that something is happening.
		Now, I'm not going to link it with the millennium is not significant.
		In the Jewish calendar, it is in a millennium.
		In the Chinese calendar, it is in a millennium.
		You know, 2,000 years, okay, but that's not what it is in all these other calendars.
		But certainly there are periods, and even just the last thousand years, when we know the number of sunspots, which do affect weather down here, had changed drastically over a short period of time.
		Something may well be going on, and we don't fully understand it, partly because if it's an unusual event, meaning maybe it happens only every hundred years, let's say, or 500 years, you haven't been around a long time to have anything to compare it to.
		You know, we don't have a history of measurements that can say, hey, when this happens, then this happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fair.
unidentified		We don't know.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, one more item, and then to the phones we go.
		This is sort of an impertinent question, but I see its value.
		So brace yourself.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Both Linda Moulton Howe and Stan Friedman have at various times been funded by the Bigelow Group.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know Bob Bigelow Personally.
		Yes.
		Anyway, he goes on extensively, in fact, a front for Rockefeller money.
		Bigelow stopped funding UFO organizations in favor of NIDS or the National Institute of Discovery Science, headed by, in quotes, Dr. Death, or otherwise known as Colonel John Alexander, another man I know personally, who has been on the air talking about non-lethal weapons and this person in the face.
		And so the question is, who is running the show?
		It's not about UFOs, this says.
		That's a cover story.
		Ask about Honeywell Scaler patents.
		So in other words, this person is asking about your involvement with Bigelow.
		I've been involved with Bigelow, so is Linda.
		And is there anything there, Stanton, that you would care to comment on?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, all I can say is, yes, I had some research funding from Bob and found is that everything he said he would do, he did, and when he said he would do it, he's a hard-nosed businessman who wants results.
		He doesn't want theoretical claptrap going on forever as a way to keep researchers occupied.
		And I can respect him for that.
		Remember, I worked at industry, not academia.
		I saw nothing sinister.
		He asked to be a fly on the wall, if you will, on some of my research trips relating to Roswell.
		And he was, and he did not interfere.
		I did not feel pressure from him.
		I've been asked this question of some television program asking about these things, too.
		So what I found is, at least when I was dealing with them, Bob had strong interests in paranormal, as you know.
		I was on that Dreamland show when he first funded it.
		And I respect that interest.
		I was not surprised when he pulled the money from the conglomeration of the UFO groups because I felt they were not respecting his interests, not recognizing that he wasn't interested in hobby pursuits.
		You know, Bob is exceptional in one way.
		The UFO groups don't believe in paying anybody for their time.
		They'll pay expenses.
		Also hard to feed your family on expenses only.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To be accurate, he funded a program called Area 2000 that preceded this one years ago.
		Okay, well, you've answered it.
		So in other words, there's nothing.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I've met John Alexander, incidentally.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what to make of John, but I don't see anything sinister about non-lethal weapons.
unidentified		They're very attractive, if you can figure out how they work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Friedman, I just finished your book.
		The phones are coming, folks, in one second.
		Quote, Top Secret Magic.
		I found it most intriguing and compliment you on the amount of work that obviously went into it.
		Question.
		Could you name the members of the group that is currently in charge of Majestic and if the group is still called Majestic?
		So that's question one.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I would say this, that certainly almost 99.9% sure it wouldn't be called Majestic.
		Once a code word is blown, they change it so quick you wouldn't believe it.
		In other words, once it's in public, and the word Majestic has been out there for a decade, more than a decade.
		I cannot name the current members.
		I mean, after all, I'm dealing with stuff that happened pre-1955.
		If you look at the latest document.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you knew their names now, or any of their names, would you give them out?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, no is a critical word there.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		One can guess that people who had very good science background and worked in highly classified stuff for a long time, I would suggest two that come to mind, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me stop you right there and just straight out ask you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Also, was astronomer Carl Sagan, to your knowledge, ever a member of such a group?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		To my knowledge, no.
		And Carl and I talked about this the last time I saw him in 1992 at his home.
		I was speaking at Cornell University, and the professor who arranged that knew that we had been classmates, so we went over for milk and cookies kind of thing, and we talked at some length, and there was correspondence between us after that.
		And I would say, to the best of my knowledge, certainly no.
		And unlike all the other members, Dr. Donald Menzel was the preceding astronomer, if you will, who had close connections with the NSA, the CIA, did classified work for decades, taught cryptography, all that kind of stuff, was in the Navy during World War II.
		Carl was never in the military.
		He has frequently taken positions that were embarrassing and distressing to the government.
		Remember the nuclear winter and all that stuff?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And so my feeling, and he admitted that if he did have the highest level of clearance, he couldn't talk about it.
		Anyway, he did have a clearance to be on the O'Brien panel set up before the Condon report.
		But I would say my best bet, if you were going to pick an astronomer, this may surprise you and your listeners, but I would pick Frank Drake.
		Why?
		Because he was at electrical engineering training.
		He worked on electronic countermeasures during his Navy service and before he got his Ph.D. at Harvard and was in the reserve for another 10 years.
		We know he had to have a high level of clearance to work on electronic countermeasures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, all right.
		Back to Carl for a second.
		The reason for the question, because Mr. Sagan, indeed, seemed to have done a 180-degree turn during his career with regard to the entire E.T. issue.
		To what then would you attribute such turnaround?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't think there was a turnaround.
		He's always maintained that there's life out there, that some of it's more advanced than we are.
		In his very early days in the 60s, he suggested there might have been a visit here during Sumerian times, you know, once every 10,000 years.
		He's always been pro-ET and anti-UFO.
		As a matter of fact, there's a chapter in Top Secret Magic when I deal with some of the inconsistencies in his comments of the unscientific myth, if I can create a word, in his last book, Demon Haunted World, where he attacks UFOs, but never by referencing data.
		His major source of information seemed to be articles in the Weekly World News, of all things, doesn't reference the very conference proceedings that he participated in, and in one case edited.
		I would say he was trying to show that he was being rational and defending the radio astronomy stuff.
		You know, SETI, S-E-T-I, I call it silly effort to investigate.
		The cult of SETI.
		And I go into that in the book to some extent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The cult of SETI.
unidentified		Well, what is a cult?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It's got charismatic leadership, a strong dogma, strong resistance to outside ideas, and a strong notion of its own importance if that doesn't describe SETI and no evidence.
unidentified		That's the worst part.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, if I don't go to the phones, I'm going to be in trouble.
		So the ever-persistent voice from Arizona, I think, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		This is Fritz from Phoenix, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I knew I guessed that one right.
unidentified		You sure did.
unidentified		Hi, Stanton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Fritz.
unidentified		Stanton, you're a researcher that is highly respected worldwide.
		Of course, that means everybody knows that your work means a lot.
		But even Stanton, you has to leap yet over a few hurdles.
		Yes, Stanton, honestly.
		And whenever I get a chance to talk to you like this radio program, of course, the Billy Meyer contact case comes up.
		And your scientific defense shotguns me usually, or you make comments about it, negative.
		Now, I told you on numerous occasions that the Billy Meyer case is not over yet, and that's recorded, and that the Balladian contact case, Phase 2, will sooner or later emerge.
		Well, phase two is now in full swing.
		That's known as the Miami contact case.
		Now, Stin, are you scientist enough to face that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll jump in here and I'll let you answer that.
		But I think the Miami contact case has a hell of a lot less credibility going for it in the interviews I've done and what I've been able to think about regarding what I've heard than the Billy Meyer case did.
		But, Stanton, what's your view?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't have strong feelings because I don't know enough about Miami.
		I put things in my gray basket until I get enough information.
		I'm still not impressed with Billy Meyer, partly because of his supporters saying things that weren't true quite consistently.
		And, you know, you get a little tired after a while.
		I noticed there's a big battle on the internet between Michael Hesseman, who is defending Billy Meyer, and Cal Korf, who was attacking Roswell and did a quote expose book on Billy Meyer.
		And I think he probably went overboard there, too, although initially I was impressed.
		But I can't do much with gray basket cases.
		And certainly there are fraudulent aspects of the Billy Meyer case.
		Semyassi's hair was the same as our hair.
		That picture of Jesus, you know, all that sort of stuff.
		The Miami case, what can I say?
		I don't know enough to say anything, so I'm not going to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, with what you know right now, it would be in the same gray basket.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We don't have enough time to take another call right now.
		We will after the break, and I promise everybody we'll go hard to the phones after this break.
		Truly an intriguing, very intriguing night, wouldn't you say?
		My book, The Quickening, first edition, autographed copy, available for a little while longer because the second printing of this thing is selling out like crazy.
		The number is 1-800-64-7991.
		You can call that 24 hours a day until you manage to get through.
		That's 1-800-864-7991.
unidentified		this is dreamland From the Kingdom of Nineveh, you're here in Greenland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are the ones.
		Now, in my humble opinion, and I've been doing these programs now for years, this is one of the best.
		If you would like an archive of it, you can get a copy by calling 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		Back to Stanton in New Brunswick, Canada, in a moment.
		Are you trading?
		America's trusted name in private hard assets.
		You don't have to be rich to own gold.
		Just smart, just smart.
		All right, Stanton, we don't have much time left, and so I'm going to ask for some fast answers to a fast question here, and then we'll go to the phones.
		Do fictional programs like Dark Skies, The Exiles and such, The Strange Universe, all of them, hinder or help UFO researchers like yourself in terms of the way people perceive your credibility?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Mixed bag.
		I think sometimes they help because at least they make the media where the people are interested.
		Although Dark Skies has been canceled, it dealt with Operation Majestic 12, which is what Top Secret Magic is about, so maybe it helped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to add that I know things you don't know about Dark Skies, and though it may appear canceled, and that's all I can say.
unidentified		Okay.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've heard other stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know The creator, and anyway, I can't say anymore.
		Then, this: whose UFO research do you really admire?
		And are there any publications or TV or radio programs that are reliable as sources of UFO information?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of reliable sources.
		I even have a free list.
		And as a matter of fact, you've got this huge computer-savvy audience.
		Let me give a webpage, whatever you want.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Uncle, before you do that, let me tell my audience that right now, if you go to my website and you go down to the guest area, you will see Stanton Friedman's name there.
		And if you click on that, you will automatically be taken to Stanton's new website.
		And I highly recommend you do that.
		The link is up there right now, Stan.
unidentified		Oh, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At www.artbell.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, having said that, give out your information.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It's UFO-paranormal.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		UFO-in-the-middle, right?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not underline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, paranormal.com.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And they'll get, it's a shopping market, if you will, but for free, they can get an article on the Cosmic Watergate and a list of about 25 different videos, scientific papers, books covering all aspects of the UFO phenomena.
		In terms of people whose work I admire, and you know, I'll give out my address too for people who have to go the old ways, self-address stamp, number 10 envelope, Stan Friedman, Post Office Box 958, Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Main, M-E, 04730-0958.
		I know not everybody has a computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're going to have to do that again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People are not that fast.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's Stan Friedman.
		Send a self-address stamp, number 10 envelope.
		You'll get a free list of papers and an article on the Cosmic Watergate.
		Post Office Box 958.
		Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Maine, M-E, 04730-0958.
		I live in New Brunswick.
		Holton's on the border between New Brunswick and Maine.
		I know I confuse people.
		He's in New Brunswick.
		Well, Post Office Box is in Maine to make it easy for Americans who are most of your audience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, now that's somewhat changed, Stan.
		We have a line of 50,000 waters almost covering all of Canada.
		Great.
		And one last, and this is a big one.
		Make it a fast answer if you can.
		Why is there so damn much conflict among UFO researchers?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think part of it is stimulated by the government.
		Disinformation always follows when good information has leaked out.
		There's also who's king of the hill.
		But as I said earlier, I spoke with Kevin Randall today.
		We agreed about a whole bunch of things.
		There wasn't any bad words between us at all.
		What's important here is the reality, in Roswell's case, of Roswell, not the trivial details that we differ on.
		So some of us, at least, are trying to change that.
		The enemy is the Air Force.
unidentified		You know what I mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Back to the phones.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
		Hello, where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In New York, all right.
unidentified		Hi, Stanton.
		Hi.
		How you doing?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I have a question.
unidentified		Have you been keeping up on what Dr. Greer has been doing?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I've been following through the internet and stuff.
		I've seen summaries of his work.
		I have very mixed feelings, partly because somebody else, not Dr. Greer, released the names of some of the people who provided information to this group of congressional representatives in Washington.
		That was definitely a no-no.
		That people who were to participate were assured that their names wouldn't get out unless there was an amnesty kind of thing.
		I think he makes claims that on some cases cannot be substantiated by any evidence.
		He seems to be strongly against the typical abduction scenario, but without really giving any indication he's investigated it.
		So it's a mixed bag.
		And I think he used to be at least very naive about how security works.
		I mean, get somebody who's got friends to get their friends who have clearances to open up.
		Well, that's not the way it works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in opposition to the abduction research, but at the same time, it has led groups trying to call UFOs down?
unidentified		Yep.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		He's trying to make contact.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think he wants to be Earth's first representative to the aliens, but that's foreign affairs, and the government has laws against doing that, frankly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least maybe he'd finally get the hearings he wanted, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, caller, anything else?
unidentified		Nope, that's all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you very much, and take care.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air with Stanton Friedman.
		Good evening or morning or whatever.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Where are you?
unidentified		Bill in Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I wanted to comment about it an hour ago when you were talking about no such agency.
unidentified		While I was in the military, I enjoy your insightful information.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And yes, you do have another intriguing show, Art.
unidentified		But while I was in the military, I was stationed on temporary duty at Fort George T. Meade, Maryland, the National Security Agency.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		The Puzzle Palace.
unidentified		Right.
		And it is that you only get to find out what you need to know.
		And even though I was in communications intelligence, I had very limited access to any information there.
		The Puzzle Palace is so much of a puzzle that when I went out for lunch one afternoon and came back in through a side door, the floors didn't line up, and I didn't know where I was.
		I had to go Back out the side and come back in the other end where I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have information, caller, that would bear on anything we've been discussing that you can or cannot talk about?
unidentified		No, Art.
		I don't.
		I do know because this was such a long time ago and things have changed an awful lot, including the computer systems that are there and what we had when I was there.
		When I was overseas, I do know that within minutes of a rocket launch at Taratam Missile Range in Russia, we got an emergency notification.
		I'm sure all the bases around the world received that just to let us know what had happened.
		So we were very much on top of anything that happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if it's reasonable to conclude, which it is, I guess, that we could do that then, imagine what we can do now.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you very much.
		And I'm sure he's right, Sam.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		No question about it.
		I've heard from other former NSA people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the Oscar Friedman in New Brunswick.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, calling from Willwick, Ohio, east of Cleveland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I guess the question is more of a historical reference type than more current, but I've just been reading microfilm articles out of the Cleveland Public Library over the past few years, and I stumbled on something after looking for actually another subject matter,
		but it had to do with President Truman and his waiting on an airport runway while his mother was dying on September 25th, 1947, while he was waiting to sign papers that actually turned out to be the formation of the National Security Act with James Forrestal becoming the first Secretary of Defense after a year and a half of haggling.
		I don't know if you ever found any information in looking this up, but that was such a profound point to me that he would interrupt.
		And he never got to his mother's deathbed because of the fact that he delayed waiting for the papers to be corrected so he could sign all that in the act after all those months of haggling.
		It always struck me that the type of guy that he was, he would have said to hell that we'll wait for it till I get back after my mother's death and we'll take care of this thing.
		But that and then the CIA being formed within all a three-week period after that week in July, it just astounds me.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was a very busy time.
		It's also the date of the establishment of Operation Majestic 12.
		I go into that in Top Secret Magic.
		And yeah, it was an action-packed week of stuff right on the 25th of September.
		The whole government got changed.
		The Air Force became a separate body, not just the CIA being converted from the old Central Intelligence Group.
		Forrestal actually took his oath a couple days early that Truman had been off to Brazil, the big conference, and came back by ship, the Missouri, as a matter of fact.
		And so he had a lot of catching up to do.
		And Forrestal took concern about what was going to happen in Italy, I think it was, the communists pushing down there and stuff.
		So the government was involved in several, I'll call them crises.
		Mostly outside the world didn't know a heck of a lot about what was going on.
		But certainly Forrestal's diary and other places indicate that there was a great deal of concern.
		Yes, you're right.
		Truman was certainly dutiful to his mother.
		And it was a switch, but the Truman Library.
		I've been to 17 archives altogether.
		And the Truman Library isn't the plushest, but it's one of the nicest in terms of the people and being able to get out.
		There's a lot of stuff still classified at the Truman Library.
		He went out of office in 53.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Red Line, you're on the airport.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		El Paso, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Just a mirror, 205 miles from Roswell.
		Right.
		And yes, and Lord and behold, we're getting a little rippling of 30th anniversary next month.
		Anyway, Fenton, nice talking to you, sir.
		And is it so, sir?
		Kindly confirm what I found out myself about four or five months ago.
		At that time in 1947, the Soviet Union, their spies in the United States, actually had their little investigation in them.
		Or it may have not been.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There was a geographer, actually, who has recited the story that was printed in the Soviet Union, and he told it to Television newsmen that Stalin asked Korolev and two other scientists, Korolev, I don't know how to pronounce it, I'm not, well, I am Russian three generations back, was sort of the Werner von Braun of the Soviet Union.
		I mean, that's the kind of person we're talking about.
		He was asked to spend, under special circumstances, reviewing data about flying distance to see whether it was a threat to the security of the Soviet Union.
		And he concluded that while they were real, there didn't seem to be any security threat to the Soviet Union.
		And when the geographer was asked, well, what was the information that was going to get a whole staff of women that translate things and that sort of stuff?
		And supposedly it was special access.
		George didn't know spy materials.
		Now, we know, indeed, Fuchs and other people were spies at Los Alamos.
		Some of the wreckage and perhaps a body or two went to Los Alamos.
		You got high-level security, high-talented people right there.
		That's what you'd use, in other words.
		Apparently, knew more about Roswell than the American people did at the time it happened, which I find kind of hilarious to use.
unidentified		And I understand that we, the laymen out here, really found out about it, more so the archives after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the mid-80s.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the beginning of the research was 1978 when I first talked to Major Marcel in the first book out, The Roswell Incident by Charles Berlitz and William L. Moore.
		Came out in 1980, but it didn't cause a big splash.
		The media noise certainly has been much more recent.
		The TV movie Records Dependence Day, which only, I think somebody said it covered, it cleared 700 million bucks, gross 700 million all over the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people saw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, there was nothing between basically July 9th.
		The big story came out July 8th.
		It was in evening papers from Chicago West.
		The cover-up story came out the next morning.
		And until I got involved 31 years later, just by being in the right place at a television station, being referred to Major Marcel by somebody who'd known him, ham radio operators, if it hadn't been for that, there wouldn't be any big celebration next month, and we wouldn't be talking about this at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		I'm calling from Port View, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, my name is Fred, and Art, I've talked to you last time when Joyce Riley was on.
		Yes.
		And we talked about it.
		Oh, great.
		And I was the one that discussed nerve agents in Laos and Cambodia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I'd like to discuss with Stanton an item that happened to me.
		I've had four separate encounters.
		The last one being in 94.
		And I was an aircraft controller in Reno, Nevada.
		And I saw an object, and I'd had like three encounters before this.
		And then, you know, I've been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Visual or on radar?
unidentified		Absolutely visual.
		Okay.
		And then I checked the radar.
		And?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And?

▲