Rosalie Osias, president of the Osias Foundation, argues in a 1997 Coast to Coast AM replay that women must strategically leverage sexuality—confidence, attire, and presence—to break through male-dominated corporate fields, citing her own success with provocative ads targeting bankers. She dismisses feminist critiques as counterproductive, claiming systemic barriers like unequal credit access and male networks force adaptation, not submission. Callers debate morality and effectiveness, but Osias insists women must "attack" with education, networking, and visual recognition to achieve economic power, framing her approach as a pragmatic response to entrenched gender dynamics. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across this great land, stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains in the west, eastward to the Caribbean, and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north all the way to the Pole worldwide on the internet.
About every corner covered there.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning, everybody.
I'm Mark Bell, and I've got a surprise for you coming up in a moment, as if I'm not nearly always full of them.
A lot to do this morning.
First of all, I would like to welcome some new radio stations.
WRECAM in Memphis, Tennessee.
That's AM 600 5,000 big ones covering a whole wide area down around Memphis.
When you find out, you're going to need to be buckled in.
This is going to be fun.
It relates to the Supreme Court decision in some ways.
In some ways, it does not.
Actually, it does.
Well, we'll decide as we go along what the hell.
Beijing is a radio that, well, first of all, you know what?
I better cover the serious news.
At least 32 people have been killed by a string of powerful tornadoes and thunderstorms that literally ripped through central Texas, tossing vehicles into the air like toys, like in the movies, destroying businesses and homes by the dozen.
Police said the deadliest tornado killed at least 30 people when it literally obliterated homes in the small Williamson County town of Jarrell, about 40 miles north of Austin.
We are heard widely in that area.
Stunned rescue teams said the death toll could rise higher during the night.
Rescue workers tried to find victims and survivors in the rubble of at least 50 homes and trailer homes flattened by that tornado, which was at least, get this folks, 200 yards wide, at least six tornadoes were reported across four counties.
That is the lead story and not a surprise.
We have been talking in recent days about the more violent weather, and it is yet another example of it, and one of the things covered in my book.
And I'm just going to, I'm not going to have time to plug my book tonight, except to tell you it's called The Quickening.
It is the second printing, the first printing.
I've never seen an entire first printing sell out in two weeks, but ours did.
Ours did.
It was gone.
And the second printing is here.
It's still a first edition, and you can still get an autographed copy of my book.
However, how long that will be going on, I cannot at this moment tell you.
not long i suspect uh...
unidentified
at this rate You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 27, 1997.
All right, now, to lead into Rosalie, here is an item that really is going to do that for us.
The U.S. Supreme Court decision to allow a sexual harassment lawsuit against President Clinton to go ahead immediately, and it was 9-0, by the way, cast a paw over what was intended to be a week of triumph for the White House.
The signing of a historic security framework for Europe in Paris Tuesday is now under the poll, a poll cast by the decision of the Supreme Court to allow Apollo Jones to go ahead and go get the president in court.
Now, for sexual, well, sexual harassment, I guess.
Now, that's where my guest enters the scene in her own way.
Rosalie Osias is president of the Osias Foundation.
She has become the woman that women love to hate.
Believe me not, men, you should see her photograph.
Good heavens, we're going to have to arrange that.
She's gorgeous.
And yet, all she wanted to do was talk about, get this, folks, using sex in the workplace for career advancement totally destroying the glass ceiling sending executives probably flying through it over the last year Oscias has confronted the feminist movement over what she believes is the hypocrisy of its leadership
Angry over their studied indifference regarding the role of sex and sexuality in the workplace, she has debated, lectured, written, and even broadcast this issue until, get this, WOR radio in New York, candor fired her over materials too graphic for even WOR.
She counsels that being gender blind in the office doesn't mean you shouldn't flash thigh or cleavage to move ahead.
So as you might imagine, she has created anger, stunned silence, grudging respect as she denounces feminists as those who have stripped femininity from the workplace.
Boy, is she right about that.
While she creates provocative advertisements for her law firm that celebrates sex appeal in business.
Not content to face down the bar association with her hints of censure.
Now I can imagine they wouldn't like it.
Osaya says, now take into the lecture circuit, debating her philosophy before combative students and lawyers and probably talk show listeners.
Within the last year, she's created a not-for-profit foundation whose purpose is to assault the male establishment and the seething feminist movement who see her use of sex in the workplace as counter-revolutionary.
Ha ha ha ha.
Despite the hostility and the occasional boycott stage by some feminists, she says, her message continues to find a responsive court.
Quote, typically, men have created a business attire for women at work that would strip us, no pun intended, of our femininity.
A powerful weapon in breaking through the glass ceiling.
Yeah, here we go.
Worse, the so-called feminist leadership has brought into it becoming the quizlings of the 90s.
Says she's proud of the epitaphs that have been thrown at her by other women, including hard, ruthless, mean-spirited, aggressive, ambitious, calculating, and I bet she's been called a bitch one time or two, haven't you?
Well, I'm successful, and it has worked for me, and it would work for other women if they tried it.
Instead of conforming to male standards that were created by men for men, women have to be women.
They have to be bright.
They have to be educated.
They have to have an expertise in whatever they want.
But they need to look like women, and they need to use something inherent that they're born with, which is their sexuality.
Sex sells.
It always does.
It works very well in manipulating men all throughout our lives until we get into the workplace.
and that's when we leave everything outside the corporate door and we decide that we're going to look like men and act like men and by God if you know we walk in there with our shirts and ties and jackets we're going to be respected like men and judged on the same basis.
That's garbage.
We're not judged the same way.
Women are judged very differently.
And when you don't look like a woman, you bland in with the wallpaper because men have a brotherhood.
They mentor each other.
They take each other by the hand.
They bring them up that corporate ladder.
And women do not get that same response from that male employer.
And by God, he's going to be a male employer, not a female.
And so women have to get some sort of recognition early on in their career and accelerate the fact that they're there and they're smart and they can do the work.
And the only way really to catch a man's attention is by being sexual and using it as a weapon.
If you had had an opportunity to counsel Paula prior to her encounter with the president, no matter what happened, prior to her encounter or right after?
No, no, no, no, prior to her encounter.
I mean, now, remember, she is allegedly going up to a hotel room at the invite of the president of the U.S. She is an employee of the state of Arkansas, right?
All right.
So here we have a classic case of big boss, little employee, a clear invitation to sexual occurrences.
So if you'd had a chance to interview her prior to her visit to The Suite, what would you have said?
What I would have said was, what a tremendous opportunity you're getting.
I would go right up there and I would send everybody out and I would stay with Bill behind closed doors.
and no one's going to know what i'm doing behind those closed doors but when i walk out of that room Well, let's just say he would have owed me a lot, and I would have gotten much more out of that deal than just a lot of lawsuits and a lot of press because what she really did was she's not going to really get anything from it.
And more importantly than that, what she's sending a message out to the world is don't hire women, don't get them into the workplace, don't move them up because the minute you look at them the wrong way, the minute you touch them the wrong way, the minute you say something that doesn't sound right, you're going to have a lawsuit.
And women have their reputations, and women have their attitudes, and women have their smarts.
And I don't know how one loses one's reputation.
It's beyond me.
If I had the opportunity to be with a governor of a state, I certainly wouldn't think that I had lost my reputation.
I mean, after all, Bill is a man.
And like all other men, he's going to, if he has an opportunity, he's going to try and do whatever he feels like doing.
And that's the way it works, even in the workplace.
Men are just like that.
And women know that.
And women dress for that.
And women buy billions of dollars in cosmetics for it and spend millions of dollars for their hair.
There's a reason why all these enterprises make billions of dollars because women play into that.
Unfortunately, they don't play into it in the right places where they can get the profit from it, where they can get the economic advantage, where they can get that corporate corner office.
That's the only place where women don't make it work for them.
In my opinion, feminism, you know, 30 years ago, the feminist movement did a wonderful thing.
It told women, you know something, you're as smart as guys, and you can do anything you want, and you can get any position you want, and you can be anything you want.
And that's where they left us.
And they told us, well, you know, just go march in and look like men.
And if that happens, and you have your JD in your hand, or if you have your BA or your BS or whatever it is that you want to do, you're going to be judged on the merits and you're going to get the same respect as men.
It didn't happen.
It's never going to happen.
And yes, sexuality is a woman's inherent, wonderful asset.
And women do need that extra weapon to make it in the world.
There is no doubt about it.
We're not just going to make it with what we know and how we speak.
I'm an attorney.
I wanted to represent leading banks in New York State.
And women, really, have to deliver work that's much better than men in order to keep that clientele.
And they're still with me.
So, you know, to all the women that say, no, I'm not going to put myself out there in the meat market.
I want to be judged on my brain, on my merit, on who I am, on what I do, that's great.
But who's going to know who you are and what you do and what you can't do and how great you are?
No one's going to know it.
Because by renting a room in a suite or by renting a storefront and opening a business or by walking into a law firm that has 500 male associates, you're not going to make it.
No one is going to deal with you.
You're going to sit at the very bottom and make ends meet.
You've got to accelerate your recognition immediately.
And the only way you can really do that is through your sexuality, because that's the only thing that you've got that the men don't.
So if it had been you who had been going to meet Bill Clinton by now, you would be Secretary of State or probably ambassador to the country of your choice?
I would have been doing something very important, absolutely.
Because, you know, the whole idea, I assume, by women yelling and ranting and raving and fighting is that we want economic equality and we want financial equality and we want that same power.
Well, women have to have a strategy, a game plan, just like men.
Men have that game plan, except that men have each other to bring them up.
And we are frantically searching for a place on the web right now, the World Wide Web, where we can get a photograph of Rosalie and get a link to it on our site.
So we are frantically working on that.
Anybody out there can help us.
She's been associated with Nexis Lexis.
And if you can find a link to a photograph of Rosalie, it's worth getting it up there.
This woman is a knockout.
And she knows how to use it.
unidentified
and she'll be right back You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 27, 1997.
Rosalie, I have the first blistering facts in already, which says, Art, I'll bet this woman has never been raped, or she wouldn't have such a perspective.
Now, how do you address that?
Comes from a guy, by the way, Dave in San Francisco.
Well, you know, do you notice that there isn't any rape going on in the world today?
I mean, there's rape going on every single day, and there's domestic abuse going on every single day, and we're running around having parties to build more shelters for women to run to in the middle of the night with their children.
So I don't see that by not using your sexuality or by conforming to some male standard of dress and way about you that we've done anything greater in the world in the last 30 years.
Actually, I think it's gotten worse than it ever has.
So what I'm advocating is for women to finally really take their lives in their hands, truly and really and honestly, and look at themselves and realize that we've moved nowhere except downwards.
And that's where men would like to keep us, is downwards.
That's where we're the best.
And take our lives in our hands and finally use something that we do have and we've been using on our fathers from the time we're little girls to get what we want.
And we use it on our boyfriends and to get boyfriends and to get that guy to take us to the prom and to get that guy in college and to get that husband.
I mean, we're always using our sexuality as women from the time we're born.
The only place we leave it outside the door is when we go out to work and wear it counts so that we can move up and get some power in our hands.
And, you know, I've had women writing to me and writing to newspapers whenever I've been published in newspapers, one woman said, well, you know, the Wanda Bois and things like that are okay for Madonna, but not for the real working woman.
And I said to myself, well, here's a woman who thinks it's okay for Madonna to make millions of dollars by using her sexuality, but for some reason, the rest of the millions of us all have to live in poverty or have to struggle to make ends meet.
Why is that?
Why do women accept sexuality in the modeling industry, in the beauty industry, in the entertainment industry?
Why is it okay in all those industries, which by the way, men manipulate women in those industries through sexuality and women buy right into it?
Why don't women just manipulate themselves for once instead of letting the men make the money off of us?
Because that's really what happens in the real world.
So you're really saying that the whole femininity business as it applies to the workplace and even sexual harassment, that's something we'll cover, is an absolute bunch of baloney and it's really backwards and wrong and unnatural and what you're saying is the natural thing.
I mean, you know, women went into the workplace and, you know, for some reason they thought they're supposed to leave their womanhood outside of the door.
But it doesn't work.
It really doesn't because when you're in the real world and you're trying to get up there and you have to be ambitious and aggressive and walk over a lot of dead bodies because that's the way men make it also.
You know, men don't just walk in the door and become president two weeks later.
Men have to do the same thing.
But men have something in there that women don't and that's a friend.
It's the brother sitting in the corporate office.
He's going to network in the golf course.
He's going to network with the boys at the disco.
He's going to network with them at the Urinol.
He's going to network with them when he's cheating on the wife.
Women don't have that.
They don't have the friend at the workplace.
They've got to make themselves known and make themselves known much quicker to whoever is important in that office and who can mentor them and help them and teach them and bring them along.
That's the only way women are going to do it.
They're not going to do it by working 20 hours a day sitting at their desk in their corporate outfits.
And, you know, feminism has, you know, the feminist movement, it started out as something so great, but then it really became a cancer, and it really suffocated all those women out there.
Well, you know, men have been doing that for years.
You know, men know what sexuality is, and they've played that game.
You know, men, you know, as a matter of fact, the foundation did a survey, and they found that they questioned about 800 secretaries, support staff, paralegals, assistants, and over 50% of those women said they fantasized having sex with the boss.
Well, you know, in terms of sexual, I just want to make one point about the sexual harassment situation in that, you know, 30 years ago women were told, you know, take your bra off and burn it.
We should have really been told, you know, put on the bra and stuff it because that's a much better deal.
I think sexual harassment is just the new thing in town for a lot of women who have not made it, who are very frustrated.
It seems to be a big thing on talk shows and it gets you a little publicity, that 15 minute of fame.
You may get a few bucks out of the deal because you obviously are not going to get up there, that corporate ladder.
And it really ruins it for many, many, many, many women by, again, telling the world, you know, women can't handle the corporate environment.
They can't handle the reality of men and women in the work environment.
And so, you know, we're going to cry wolf.
And it really ruins it for all the other women who take working very seriously and have no problem in dealing with the boys when the boys need to be dealt with.
Who brainwashed women, the feminists, you know, and their intention was not bad.
The initial revolution, so to speak, was good in the sense that they motivated millions and millions of women to go out there and become whatever it was that they wanted to become, that they too could do it.
And so in that way, it was very, very positive.
It became, what happened though, as time evolved, instead of women realizing that they shouldn't look like men and they don't know how to play the game that's played out there, because there is a game that's played out there and women didn't know the rules, they just kept doing it even though it was getting worse and worse and worse.
A lot of the women organizations and the feminist leaders who started it, you know, they got richer.
They started these organizations that really live off of all the rest of us that are going nowhere.
Men humored us.
You know, they thought this is very funny.
You know, when you speak to men in corporations and banks, which I do on a daily basis and in law firms, you know, they call us Ms. and they call us assistants and they give you a nice little desk.
But you know something?
You're no better off than you were 30 years ago.
You're still the secretaries.
You're still helping those guys get ahead.
And you don't even realize it.
I mean, there's a woman who just came out with a book.
I couldn't believe it.
And I heard her on TV called Surrendering.
She's telling women, it's okay to stay home.
You know, you don't have to really work.
And, you know, the feminist movement told you you could, but don't feel bad if you don't want to.
And women should really stay home because that's really where they belong.
And they can nurture the best.
And they can raise children the best.
And your husband needs you.
And I mean, this is crazy.
We're going, I mean, it's taken a whole turnaround because women didn't make it.
You know, I know a lot of women say, oh, yes, you know, I have this position and that position.
The question is, do we own anything?
You know, that you have this position and that position.
It's the man who owns the company that can still hire you and fire you.
But something happened to most of the women in the feminist movement.
And I don't care how much trouble I get in, but frankly, when I look at them, this is just my opinion, and I see them interviewed on television, what I see mostly is a whole bunch of not very good-looking women who look, frankly, kind of butch.
Buckle in, everybody, because you're about to hear a different point of view.
As you know, I specialize in different points of view.
It gets me in trouble all the time.
This is really different.
My guest is Rosalie Osias.
And by the way, anybody who's got a nice photograph of Rosalie Osias, please send it to me by email right now at artbell at aol.com.
In the meantime, I have just scanned not a very good rendition sent to me by Fax of Rosalie, and that's on the way to my webmaster, Keith Rowlands.
He will probably have it up there within the next half hour.
But if anybody else has a photograph, and this is a worthy photograph to see, trust me, send it along and we'll get that up.
She'll be back in a moment.
She has a different outlook on things than you might hear conventionally anywhere else right now.
And the thing about Rosalie is she's right.
Anyway, back to her in a moment, and I'll catch you up.
L.A., San Francisco, joining at this hour.
unidentified
Coast of Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device users, specifically for the iPhone and Android platforms.
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You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 27, 1997.
As you know, the U.S. Supreme Court 9-0 said that the sexual harassment case against the president may proceed.
And that's pretty big news today, just behind the tornadoes in Texas.
And so we've got Rosalie Osias with us, and she has a very, very different way of looking at things.
And she is suggesting that instead of the feminist position prevalent today in the workplace of, well, of suppression of a woman's natural sexuality, that women are losing one of the most powerful tools they have, their sexuality, a little thigh, a little cleavage, and why, as I joked earlier, you get a thigh in the door.
Now, look, she's an attorney, and make no mistake about it, she said it, at the end of the day, you've got to be able to do your job, and she represents now about 40 banks.
But she did it by getting a thigh in the door.
You know, she just admits that, by getting a thigh in the door.
So she has a very, very, very different view of things.
And we were joking earlier, and I asked her, look, if you'd been in the position of a young lady that was about to go up to see the president, what would you have done?
And she essentially said, well, I would have gone in.
I definitely would have gone up there, and I would have probably gone from a GS4 to Secretary of State, maybe, or something like that.
And let me just qualify this by saying that I have running ads all the time because I'm constantly hiring new attorneys and new paralegals and assistants.
And I always try to hire women.
And I do.
Unfortunately, women do not stay with me as long as men.
So the majority of the attorneys that do work for me are men, but not because I wouldn't prefer women, which is a whole other program.
But one of the other problems that women have is they it's very difficult for women to work for a female principal.
It's okay for women to work for a manager, for a vice president, for another assistant, but it's very difficult for them to deal with a female principal as they deal with a male.
I have other businesses where I have male partners apart from the law firm, and women somehow, and it goes back to that same thing.
They don't have a strategy.
It's not, you know, I want to go from here and I want to get to Z and it doesn't really matter what I do.
With men, if a man is very demanding, women acquiesce and go, oh, he had a bad day with his wife.
His stomach hurts, you know, the poor guy.
When a woman is very demanding, women get incensed and internalize it and simply leave.
So most of the people, I would say 65% of the employees that I have are men.
Maybe people are just not used to dealing with a woman.
I do believe, though, that women have to be harder than men.
I look, I guess I'm a little bit harder.
I'm more demanding of people that work for me than perhaps my male counterpart because my clients expect a higher standard from me than my male counterparts, or they would go there.
And so if I'm going to produce a higher quality of work, then I need to get that from the people who work for me as well.
And so perhaps I may be tougher.
I mean, you know, as much thigh and cleavage as I show, at the end of the day, I still need very high quality work.
And I think both men and women have a hard time working, but those women that finally do reach it, those women do have to maintain a certain standard.
And they think, I don't know, but in my case, I am very demanding and I know what's expected and I want to keep that clientele.
But you know, men are different in the sense that if you're demanding and you critique, they will close their ears.
They may not like it.
They may whisper a lot of things under their breath.
But they like the money.
They know where they are.
They know why they're there.
They know where they're going.
There's a reason they're there.
And they move on.
Women don't.
They take it personally.
And obviously you took it personally also when the female boss yelled at you.
Oh, yeah, look, I was just making a very general observation.
Men, when they deal with each other at a business level, I'm not saying they don't get into big fights and there are not big conflicts, but it is not as strident and as mean-spirited as the woman who has made it in the man's world, not your way, but, you know, by leaving bodies behind, by being as rough and as tough and as big and as bad as any man out there in the business world.
First-time caller, you're on the air with Rosalie Osias.
Hello.
unidentified
Good morning, Art.
This is Chris from Nashville.
Yes, Chris.
I've been in the workplace for 12 years as a salesman, and I kind of agree with what she's saying, but not all women are pretty, and some women have no sexuality.
I mean, if they don't have that, what are they supposed to do?
And I think when I made my rather caustic comment about the women's movement, very caustic in fact, that's sort of what I was saying, that it has turned into or from an organization that really had a good beginning into an organization of women who are, frankly, not particularly good-looking and want the rest of the workplace and the rest of their gender reduced to the same playing field.
unidentified
You know what?
That's what another national talk show host said.
I heard him say it for the first time about a year ago, and I thought, oh, boy, you've lost it.
And actually, there's a little bit of truth in it.
You know, everything we're saying is not politically correct, but as you listen to Rosalie, you know she's right, don't you?
unidentified
In most cases, the only thing I don't like what I hear is that she keeps she's got the same general idea that the other feminists do, that all women are victims and all men are bad, and I don't agree with that.
I was thinking of another judge that told a woman that was brought in front of her who had stolen something and the judge, a female judge, very smart, said to her, you know, you didn't have to go and steal anything.
All you've got to do is go to a bus stop and sit on a bench and cross your legs and show some thigh and you would have been able to make plenty of money.
Remember, you know, some young producers, female producers, got all hot and bothered because he would walk around in his boxer shorts and light cigars.
Me, I would have taken pictures.
I would have laughed with it.
I would have said, hey, Monty, this is cool.
This is great.
You know, let me sit here and light your cigarette.
I would have gone with it because really I'm not there to help him be Monty Williams.
I'm there to take his job.
And I'm going to manipulate the situation to my advantage.
Instead, I mean, do we hear about those women anymore?
No.
It was a one- or two-day newspaper event, and that was it.
So to me, it's a waste of time, and it's not conducive to making headways for women.
When I wasn't getting any of the good work that my male counterparts were getting.
When the male associates, who had come in at the same time, were sitting in the partner's office doing big deals, and I was doing nonsense and garbage.
We've got one photograph of her on the website already.
It was a quick scan.
I'm going to try to get another.
If anybody has one, send it to me.
This woman is gorgeous.
Absolutely gorgeous.
So, I should have been working on photographs earlier, but I had a wild Day today.
Anyway, we'll get back to Rosalie.
She's got quite a message.
It's a very different message, and we'll tell you more about it in a moment.
And you know, as I sit here and I listen to music, here is yet another place where women's sexuality, their provocative natural nature is glorified.
It's all over music, isn't it?
So, what happens to it when it gets into the workplace?
And that's what Rosalie is asking.
And you may have political disagreements with her, but in your heart, I bet you know she's right.
unidentified
The End Coast of Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device users, specifically for the iPhone and Android platforms.
Now you'll be able to connect to most of the offerings of the Coast website on your phone in a quick and streamlined fashion.
And if you're a Coast Insider, you'll have our great subscriber features right on your phone, including the ability to listen to live programs and stream previous shows.
No special app is necessary to enjoy our new mobile site.
Simply visit CoastToCoastAM.com on your iPhone or Android browser.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 27, 1997.
West of the Rockies, by the way, Rosalie, I should say, and if this isn't proof, when we got the first scan of you up on the website, my webmaster just called and said the entire server, and we've got a big one, went into what he called DEF CON 4.
Which means that there's a good zillion people going up there to see what you look like right now.
You know, we're all prostitutes in one way or another, both men and women.
Unfortunately, it's the men who redeem all the benefits of that prostitution and the women who are always the givers and get nothing in return.
I say, you know, I don't know how she's using her flirtation.
You know, flirtation alone doesn't get you anywhere.
It doesn't work if it's not combined with brains and strategy, okay?
It's not enough just to show leg and breast.
That's okay for two, three days, and then, you know, everybody moves on.
So there's got to be a real strategy behind the flirtation, the sexuality.
But if that's not working and that person wants to move on and feels that there is an opportunity by doing whatever it is that she would like to do with the employer, you know, it's going to happen anyway.
And you know something?
People think that sex isn't happening out there because of AIDS and all these diseases.
Oh, it's happening out there.
It's happening every day.
I don't think people are more restrained.
And if you're going to do it, at least get something for it.
You know, I'm tired of women always being the ones.
You know, if women want something and use their sex to do it, you know, if they're sluts.
If men do it, you know, oh, isn't he great?
You know, isn't he wonderful?
You know, it's a double standard.
And it's really a matter of what do you want?
Do you want to always be the assistant?
Or do you, one of these days, want to own the company?
And just with the comments about women looking good as opposed to, you know, ugly women can fix themselves up and everything, it reminded me of the other famous trial that has gone on here lately with Marcia Clark.
She changed her image during the trial, and boy, everybody, at least out here, was talking about how good looking she was and it made her almost more credible.
That's true, but you know, I'm reading her book, and I read a lot of comments about her.
She did change her look.
She didn't change her look enough.
She didn't know.
Well, she was still very much conforming to male standards of being tough, and she has got to be this and she's got to be that.
And she'll just do so much.
I think if she would have been a lot more sexy and would have come across in that way, there would have been a much nicer, better connection with that jury.
You know, Johnny Cochrane wore purple suits for a reason.
And he was very, very sexy in that courtroom, believe me.
Well, you know, they have consultants, you would well know, you're an attorney, that are hired to assess the juries as they go through the process of picking a jury.
These consultants have a strong influence on who is picked to be on the jury for either side.
And maybe they should have a consultant like you trying to figure out whether it's a leg man or a breast man.
I just wanted to say that I think that's what she does and with the way that she works, I think that's just taking advantage of all the things that you can do.
You know, everybody gets trumpled on.
And, hey, I've been through college, you know, law school, and I'm in medical school now and been working my way to the top.
And I hear people like this, that if they can do it, they can do it easier.
Well, hey, if I was, you know, I'm not an ugly male.
I consider myself fairly sexy, you know, but if I could do what you could do with your body to get to the top, I would.
But my problem is everybody above me is either, you know, male or something, you know, and I'm not going to go quite there to get to the top, you know.
And I've always, well, I can't think of a job that I've ever had where I have not had to deal with men flirting with you and trying to take advantage of you, but I've always tried to use that to my advantage.
And have you done so to the degree Rosalie described?
unidentified
Well, the little bit that I've heard so far, I can only go on my own experience that yes, you can use it to your benefit.
You can come across kindly and nicely, and we all like flattery, and basically that's what, of course, I've never had to work with senators, so I don't know what politicians are doing.
Now, there's a very, very interesting question, Rosalie.
Of the various career fields that are out there, from the private sector, business, banks, senators, is there any difference to the kind of response you will get to the kind of overatures for career advancement that you propose?
I was going to have to jump in there and disagree.
There are definite ugly women.
unidentified
Yes, but that's to you.
You know what I'm saying?
That's your opinion.
Like, if you're to, for example, let me give you an example.
If I go into a club and there are 400 dancers in that club and I ask 20 guys, which dancer is the prettiest one in this room, all of them will have a different answer.
Not one will say the same person.
And I'm honest to God, I've seen women make fortunes who are not conventionally pretty.
When a man says, I don't think that woman is pretty or attractive.
Dear Art, I am a devout evangelical Christian and a professional psychotherapist, and I find myself in complete agreement with your guest on the show.
In my opinion, she is describing the use of charm and sensuality in the conveyance of one's talents and gifts, not necessarily the use of sexuality as a manipulation of the patriarchal system.
I wonder if that's fair.
You are, though, which are you doing?
Both, really, right?
In other words, you are using sexuality, it is fair to say, as a manipulation of the present system.
You know, I may get a lot of hassles about this, but the truth of the matter, no, no, no.
The truth of the matter is, you know, I think men play that game anyway, and even if when they're not bringing two corporations together, that's the whole idea.
Men are that way.
Men like to play around.
It has nothing really to do with whether they love their wives or not.
You're very right about when you say you're coming from a position of power because this is my opinion, but I believe that women are always going to be sexual objects.
It doesn't matter if we have a million years of so-called feminist movement.
Men are always going to be attracted by women.
And women who learn how to use that to their advantage are coming from a position of power.
And I've always felt that way.
I bought my first home when I was 20 years old.
Like I said, I've been dancing now, you know, I'm 34 now.
Well, how many women can say they bought their first home at 20?
Nothing.
unidentified
Exactly.
And, you know, I have homes here on the islands, homes on the mainland.
I work two days a week.
You know, I love my work.
Yeah.
And I've never understood it.
And the other thing I've never understood is the feminist position to me, which is very hypocritical, of saying women should have the right to do what they want with their body when it comes to abortion.
But when I want to make money with my body, it's degrading and it's putting women down.
It sets them back 100 years when I feel like the ultimate feminist weapon making money off exactly what just comes naturally to men.
You know, I've just always felt that's very hypocritical to say that on that premise.
I don't know if they really mean it deep inside or if they, you know, once they sit down and really think about and evaluate their lives, if they really believe what they say.
But superficially and on the radio and on television, I'm always attacked.
I'm a ham operator who in the late 60s decided to leave the sales and corporate organizations and go into electronics.
Wow.
And so therefore I was a woman in a man's world at a time when few women were in it.
And I also am the widow of a banker.
Now today I'm establishing a horse breeding farm in Perump, Spanish Gated Horses.
And if anybody has been down the road with men, women, good women employees or counselors, advisors in university complexes where I became the most unusual person, an engineer, electronics engineer in universities where women have ten thumbs.
You're right, you're in a man's world in electronics for sure.
Did you use your feminine wiles?
unidentified
I had one fellow, one engineer introduced to me one day and my boss said to me, who is the director of the department, said, you know, Val, you always wear these fox.
Frocks, are you ready for that fox to work?
I said, my job has nothing to do with my femininity.
And it was dead silence there for a minute, then they both gave a little chuckle.
But I never, never dressed down at any time.
And as far as wearing pants, if I wore pants, I wore something that was very feminine for a blouse or a jacket or something like that.
I was wondering if your philosophy of flirting and possibly sleeping with superiors to work yourself up also would apply if you happened to have a superior that was a woman.
I think, you know, as I said, I had many women attorneys who didn't stay and couldn't work for me.
But I think you've got to analyze who your female employer is.
Know what you are.
No, I mean, you know, let's not laugh about it.
There are ways to deal with a woman employer, not necessarily perhaps through flirtation, but you know something?
There are ways.
There are ways to be a woman and possibly be tougher with that employer.
You know, when I use my sexuality to manipulate business from a man, I'm gearing that towards that man because I know sex is very prevalent on his mind.
There obviously are women employers who aren't interested in my sexuality.
You know, my personal feeling was I didn't want to stay home ever and depend on my husband for anything.
If I wanted to buy my kids something, I didn't want to have to go to my husband and ask him for the money.
If I wanted to buy clothes or if I wanted anything, I wanted to be able to make choices in my life based on myself and what I wanted, not because my husband said yes, no, maybe, could be.
And I listen to her now, and people just don't understand what she's talking about.
And she can't get the message out anymore because she's very right, but no one wants to listen to someone that's already retired and saying it.
But she always makes a point, and it's true, and I believe it.
You know, the woman who's at home and has the man out there working, I mean, you know, that husband is her problem.
And, you know, when he's in the workplace, he's in the workplace.
And what he does there, the woman who's going to have the relationship with him in the workplace, I mean, it isn't her obligation to keep him loyal to his wife or keep that relationship in place or keep that marriage going wonderfully.
I'm not really interested in that.
That's not why I'm at work.
I'm not really concerned about the employer and his wife.
unidentified
I agree with you.
I disagree because I think that the wife many times has helped the husband become what he is.
This is why I tell women don't stay home because that is correct.
Those women have helped their husbands.
And at the end of the game, they have nothing.
That's true.
And I tell women, don't stay home and don't sit there because the kids are going to leave, the husband has his career, and you're going to be left there at home without the kids and without the husband who's out there, has his career, has a whole new world.
And, you know, men get more attractive and sexier as they get older.
I like what you're saying, but I also call myself a feminist.
And I'll tell you why.
I'm an older student that's gone back to school, and all of a sudden I've gotten an education.
I was one of these gals that sort of did that type of thing for many years, worked in the workplace and used my whiles.
I was always very attractive and sexy and got a lot of attention, and I did use it.
However, now in my older age and learning some of the things that I'm learning, I've become more aware of what's going on, and I'm working with youth.
And I have a problem with, and I did read Helen Gurley Brown, I have to say that too, I have a problem with what I think is a lot of young girls these days don't know how to use this talent and get themselves in a lot of trouble.
And I see this breakdown of what you and I know in our, you know, being older and experienced, but I don't see them being able to get the guidance or the instruction and they're just going helter-skelter.
And I have a problem with kind of espousing this philosophy at this point with all the problems that we have already in today's world.
And it seems to me like it's a breaking down of a moral standard, which is like the last thing we need right now.
And there's not anything, we're not talking about spirituality here either, which is another whole issue.
Look, young women, the reason that they don't know how to use their sexuality in the right way is because they do up to a point and then once, I'm assuming these women are ready to go into the workplace or they're in college or in high school, look, they have to be taught how to use it in the workplace, but they also need an education.
Not just, well, you know something, you're sexy, you're beautiful, and it doesn't matter and now go in there and do your thing.
It doesn't work, and I said it before.
That's okay for a few hours and a few days, and then it's over.
Those women need to be taught that they need that education.
They need to know what they want.
They need to have a strategy.
They need to learn how to network.
They need to know where the deals are made, how the deals are made, and how to be sexual and how to use that sexuality.
It's a whole package.
It's a complete package.
unidentified
Right, but I'm not seeing who's going to teach them.
It wasn't just to get on radio shows and talk to people, although it's very important that I do.
But one of the reasons for the foundation is I've been capitalizing it myself.
It's rather new, and I'm hoping there will be more donations by people who realize that women do need that kind of training and that kind of education before they go in there, before they get out there.
The men, you know, the boys don't need that training because, you know, boys somehow are taught early on, you know, you've got to grow older, you've got to go to school, you've got to get a degree, you've got to go out there, you've got to support a family, you've got to be this, you've got to be that.
Men are taught that early on, the strategy is set.
And like I said before, they have a network they're going to walk right into.
You know, it's that whole brotherhood out there.
It's that whole boys' network.
They help each other.
So my concern isn't for the boys.
I have two boys.
I'm not concerned about them.
If they're going to be smart, they're going to make it.
in a way you are In other words, she is saying the feminist movement came along and changed originally good, in a good way, nearly everything, and then went in the wrong direction.
And so in a way, you are listening to the 1950s because, folks, that's what was going on back then.
And one thing that hasn't been brought up either, I mean, Rosalie, you've been kind of all over the map, and I know it's kind of hard to do this, but I can't count how many times you've used the word manipulate.
I don't know about being laughed out of your community, but I can tell you that the rest of the world, and I say that, you know, world, not New York or this country, but the world, is not laughing.
And that's why I'm on the show, because they actually took it very seriously and are very interested and are very curious.
So obviously, if there's a curiosity about it, it means I've struck a nerve.
It wasn't my intention to strike that nerve.
I was really just doing it for myself.
unidentified
Well, that's great.
I just, what bothers me is that, you know, I feel like I'm hearing stereotypes.
There's just no reason for that.
And I'd also like to know what you'd suggest for minority, like African-American males, because they obviously do not have the power that you're saying women don't have the power.
I am not concerned with any male because you know why?
It's the women who are third and fourth class citizens in this country.
Don't you realize that?
I mean, women are the ones that run to the shelters, and women are the ones that get beaten up by men, and women are the ones that don't have money, and women are the ones that vote in a president that's an adulterer because he's going to give them out handouts.
I mean, women are the lowest, lowest, lowest people in this country.
Well, you know, the bottom line is that women are lower than men.
unidentified
Well, see, anyway, I'm lucky enough to know men that don't treat me that way, and I've always been nurtured and had mentors and have good male friends.
And I just think maybe you've had some bad experiences with males in business because I think it's insulting to men.
But, you know, if you read the newspapers, I don't know about in your hometown, but here in New York, when I look at the papers and look at all the charity events that are going on, it's just for one more shelter.
You know, what I'm trying to tell women is, instead of running around building the shelters and debating the issues, let's deal with the real problem.
And the real problem is that women have no money, have no means of making money, have no economic power.
We wouldn't have to deal with all the other issues and the shelters.
And the way women are going to get the money and the power is to educate themselves, is to know what they want, is to use their sexuality as a weapon, and to get somewhere.
That's what I'm saying.
unidentified
I guess.
Well, I've done all that without having to use my sexuality.
I mean, if that's what you want to do, I just would like to looking like a woman and being with a woman.
I mean, is there a problem with that?
No, I think I do look like a woman.
I'm not sure what your definition of looking like.
I don't have the internet, so I don't know what you look like, not that it matters.
I get called back all the time wearing sometimes my little business suits, and I've had the same clients for 10 years, so I guess maybe the answer is you can do what you want, but there's a lot of us out there that are perfectly content to just work well with men and not flash our sexuality.
unless you're willing to consider doing something for yourself Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
I think now, as we look back, we can probably say with pretty good certainty that some people in government might have been aware of what was going on and they turned their cheek the other way just to let it happen.
I also believe that some bigger groups got involved with al-Qaeda to do what they did on that horrible day.
This wasn't just a small group of people who came in and did their thing.
There was a much bigger picture there.
And if you see the events that have unfolded since this tragedy occurred, how we've lost rights, how we used it to go into Afghanistan and Iraq, and how it has really not stopped.
Because it's going to continue.
We're going to have more and more episodes and more and more involvement in other countries.
And just mark my word, this planet is going through an incredible change.
And thank God we've got you here to talk with us about it.
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 27, 1997.
I'm trying to change women's minds about how to get up and move ahead in their careers.
I could care less what men think.
unidentified
Well, you know, it's been my experience that even the homeliest, ugliest woman in the world, if she has good ideas that will expand business, who's going to hear them?
But the only people who are going to help women get out there and get their own businesses and give them money are women once they're in that position.
I can understand on one side is Rosalie, and I see I'm extreme.
And on the other side is the feminist who wants to protect women who have been molested, who have been raped, and who are tired of being looked at as sexual objects.
I can understand both sides.
And I think we're talking about a lot of issues here.
First of all, we have rural versus urban.
If you came up here to Arcata and you dressed in mini skirt and fishnet stockings, the judge might throw you out.
I mean, it's really conservative, and that's where we got the woman, Kate, from Oregon.
You know, in New York State, judges don't walk around with garter straps.
I don't know.
unidentified
No, no, no.
I mean, I've lived in New Jersey, and I've lived here on the west coast, and it's too different, especially on the northwest, way up here in the boondocks.
I mean, what are they doing for these batted women?
unidentified
Feminism has many faces.
I'm a feminist and I was there in my red sequence dress and my high heels and my sneakers and I mean my stockings and I felt beautiful and great and I had no problem with that.
I had about 50% of the women tell me, you look great, that's wonderful.
And I had another percentage saying, just looking at me like, what the hell are you doing dressed like that here?
Both of you, here's a good fact, right on the mark.
Art and Rosalie, a leather mini skirt, fishnets, stilettos?
Good Lord.
Rosalie feeds men the picture they want.
Okay, I personally think it is distasteful to flaunt cleavage in a courtroom.
Whatever, I guess that's East Coast stuff.
Admittedly, some of the guys I know would hoot and howl in their Neanderthal way at such a site, but mostly the men I know would find that type of, quote, staple in her navel, unquote, pin-up girl look, fine for a magazine in the bathroom, but not a courthouse.
unidentified
If it's working for her, what do they have to say about that?
It's working for her.
She's got all this business.
It's obviously working for her in New York.
But I don't think it would work in this little rural town where we have very conservative judges, where you have judges throwing women out clients.
I mean, women who are playing this because they're not wearing a bra.
I think if more women would stop taking the negative position, it's almost like a cop-out.
You know, all we women say is we want, we want, we want.
But when it comes to action, unfortunately, it's the men who play the game and go out and take the risks and don't mind falling down and getting up again.
We women seem to be very wimpy when it comes to that.
We want, but we're not willing to take the risk.
If all the women in the entire country went and did what I did, what is the country going to do?
Are they going to close up everything?
We women really are the support staff for the entire country.
You're not going to have banks close down.
You're not going to have companies close down.
They're going to have to deal with it.
Think about it.
If you don't show up for your boss, are you going to sit at the computer and type?
For the Long Island branches, I'm sure she's great, but she's not a clown in Manhattan.
I've been to meetings many times.
I lived in Manhattan for 10 years.
I worked for Saatchi & Saatchi, the biggest advertising company in the world.
I made $60 million for General Mills in six weeks.
How much did you make for yourself?
And anybody that walked into a meeting dressed like her is a clown and just would not be paid any attention to no matter how brilliant their ideas are.
People in Manhattan and in the major centers of the world dress like business people, speak like business people and they look plenty sexy and attractive without having to dress like a clown.
I didn't realize where you were coming from until just now, you know, when you kind of gave yourself away.
I mean, first of all, you know, you seem to be concentrating on metropolitan areas for some reason.
But I think that guys like you use, you know, well, you know, she's from Long Island, she's this, you know, you're going to, as a defense because really you know that I am right.
And you, a man like yourself, really wouldn't know how to deal.
You'd realize how vulnerable you really are.
And I can understand men putting up the defense because if they don't, they're not going to be in the same position they were.
So now I understand how you're thinking.
If you've dealt with women like myself before, then you know how effective and powerful we really are.
unidentified
I know that you really don't run anything and that if you really try to sleep your way to the top, you're only going to sleep your way to the middle.
And you couldn't even get to the top of the law firm you were going to conquer.
You had to go out and start your own law firm in the hinterlands of Long Island, which just to inform our audience who doesn't know New York is the middle of the boonies.
And I want to tell the listeners not to listen to you because you're so full of garbage.
You have no clue.
And you know something?
unidentified
The reason you thought that was unique to that.
That's right.
I realized that you're a jerk.
You really are a jerk, Rosalie, and that's why I would never do business with somebody like that that advertises their jerkiness in the way that they act, the way that they talk, the way they comport themselves, in their rituous clothing.
that you ought to be ashamed of yourself the way you the way you think and i think that people like you To Rosalie.
I think people like you, Rosalie, are a germ or cancer in this country.
And I wonder, you know what?
My mother, my grandmother, if she heard you talking tonight, if they listened to this radio show, my grandmother, she's 82 years old, she'd take you up in a woodshed and kick your butt.
Who the hell do you think you are talking the way you are?
You know, the other interesting thing that I keep hearing from your callers is the obligation of a woman to teach her children morals.
I haven't heard one person yet say it is the obligation of the parents.
I noticed that it's only the woman.
And I find that incredible, how people still think of women having certain responsibilities and God forbid she decides to do other things or to use her sexuality, which, you know, when you're raising children, you are using your sexuality as a woman.
At the same time I say that, it's no revelation of what you've done.
It isn't nothing but chemistry.
And if you just look back through recorded history and mythology, the women that have always stepped forward and have made their place from Adam and Eve to Cleopatra to Helen of Troy to Delilah and all of that have done it and they've done it by getting their thigh in the door.
That's right.
You know, you've got to get the attention first and then you can apply your tactics, your intelligence.
And I have sit up all night long listening to this station and I hung up like Art Instructor too when men were calling in.
I've had many companies.
I'm retired now.
I'm 51 years old, soon be 52.
And I'm not retired because I want to be.
Any man that sets up and says that, well take two twins that are identical, that are fashion models, if they walked into a public place and say they sold widgets or real estate or houses and one had on tight jeans and a silk blouse, showing a little cleavage, and one had on rebox and the other one had on high heels and an ankle bracelet, who do you think would get the deal or get the attention or get the appointment?
Just something that small and all that.
And I've had companies where I set up the sale and just the mere fact over the telephone of saying that I'll have one of our ladies call on you and iron out the differences, that got the appointment.
I think that, as the gentleman said before, if somebody came in wearing Reeboks and jeans or high heels, I would buy the product that I needed, and I would judge the woman.