Terrence McKenna, a psychedelic theorist from Hawaii’s volcanic slopes, presents Time Wave Zero, a fractal math model predicting a 2012 collapse of habit into infinite novelty—linked to the Mayan calendar’s end. He argues DMT-induced visions reveal time travel-like "hyperspace" consciousness, citing organ transplant memory transfers and Rupert Sheldrake’s morphic resonance as evidence. While skeptics dismiss psychedelics as speculative, McKenna insists they unlock repeatable paranormal insights, like AI emergence within the internet (per Hans Moravec). His controversial theories clash with mainstream science but suggest humanity’s next evolutionary leap may merge dimensions—whether through tech or altered states. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert to the great American Southwest, I bid you go all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these time zones, stretching from way out in the Pacific to the Eastern and Hawaiian Island chains, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the internet.
This is post-close a.m.
Good morning, everybody.
I'm Mark Bell.
And in the continuing adventure into the unknown, uncharted territories of the human mind, we're going to be departing a little, in a way, this night, and interviewing a very, very unusual individual on the big island of Hawaii named Terrence McKinna.
Who is Terrence McKenna?
Well, among other things, um, he's probably the successor to Timothy Leary.
That may not be the focus, or it may turn into the focus of the interview.
Well, it's been in continuous eruption for the past 13 years, but over on the other side, about 70 miles away, on what's called the Hilo or the wet side.
So we sort of feel pretty safe out here.
There is some talk.
They had a meeting of the International Geophysical Congress a couple of years out here.
There is large-scale destabilization that goes on periodically in these islands, big undersea landslides that produce local tsunamis.
But in an effort to escape human-created catastrophe and confusion, I'm betting that I can eke out 50 years on this island and slide through in good shape.
See, in the West, we have inherited from Newton what is called the idea of pure duration, which is simply that time is sort of a place where things are placed so that they don't all happen at once.
In other words, it's viewed as quality-less.
It's an abstraction.
In fact, I think when we carry out a complete analysis of time, what we're going to discover is that like matter, time is composed of elemental, discrete types.
You know, all matter, organic and inorganic, is composed of 104, 108 elements, there's arguments.
Time, on the other hand, is thought to be this featureless, qualityless medium.
But in fact, as we experience it as living, feeling creatures, time has qualities.
There are times where everything seems to go right and everything seems to go wrong.
Well, so when looking at this, I created a vocabulary.
Actually, I borrowed it from Alfred North Whitehead.
But I think I'm on to something which science has missed.
And it's this.
It's that the universe or a human life or an empire or an ecosystem, any large-scale or small-scale process can be looked upon as a kind of a dynamic struggle between two qualities, which I call habit and novelty.
And habit is simply repetition of established pattern, conservation, folding back what has already been achieved into a system.
And novelty is the chance-taking, the exploratory, the new, the never-before-seen.
And these two qualities, habit and novelty, are locked in all situations in a kind of struggle.
But the good news is that if you look at large scales of time, novelty is winning.
And this is the point that I have been so concerned to make that I think science has overlooked, that if you look back through the history of the human race or of life on this planet or of the solar system and the galaxy, as you go backward in time, things become more simple, more basic.
And so turning that on its head, we could say as we come toward the present, things become more novel, more complex.
So I've taken this to be actually a universal law affecting historical process, biological processes, and astrophysical processes.
Nature produces and conserves novelty.
And what I mean by that is as the universe cooled, the original cloud of electron plasma, eventually atomic systems formed, as it further cooled, molecular systems, then long-chain polymers, then non-nucleated, primitive DNA containing life, later complex life, multicellular life.
And this is a principle that reaches right up to our dear selves.
And notice that it's working across all scales of being.
This is something that is as true of human societies as it is of termite populations or populations of atoms in a chemical system.
Nature conserves, prefers novelty.
And the interesting thing about an idea like this is it stands the existentialism of modern philosophy on its head.
You know, what modern atheistic existentialism says is we're a cosmic accident and damn lucky to be here, and any meaning you get out of the situation, you're simply conferring.
I say no.
By looking deeply into the structure of nature, we can discover that novelty is what nature produces and conserves, and if that represents a universal value system, then the human world, as we find it today with our technologies and our complex societies, represents the greatest novelty so far achieved.
And so suddenly you have a basis for an ethic.
That which advances novelty is good.
That which retards it is to be looked at very carefully.
One of the first things that you said when we got on the air this morning was that you had a 128 bawd connection from your mountaintop secret location.
As we are discussing your theory, which is fascinating of novelty, I'm taken to ask you about a quote, actually, several pages, written by Michael Crichton, and I know you know who he is, with reference to the Internet.
It is Michael Crichton's contention that the Internet, which one might consider to be novelty exemplified, indeed, is going to result not in more novelty, but in fact in a slowing of the process of evolution, or novelty as you see it, because there will be a commonality.
There will not be innovation.
There will not be entrepreneurship.
There will be ten main ideas in America and Hong Kong and Moscow and London and so forth.
Well, what I see happening, and I spend hours and hours a day on the Internet, is I believe it's the greatest force empowering marginal and minority points of view to come along in centuries.
In other words, before the Internet, the great establishment ideas already had the machinery of media to communicate their position.
What has happened is that the common man has gotten into the game with technology that I really don't think was ever intended to fall into.
He suggests, for example, that if you were to take an otherwise deserted or barren desert island and you were to put a species upon it, that species, because there are so few of them, would by necessity be very innovative, would change very quickly in trying to adapt and live and stay alive.
On the other hand, if you put many, many creatures on that island, that process would be far slower.
And he uses that as a parallel to the Internet.
I'm not sure that I agree with it either.
I just found it an interesting take on the sociological implications of the Internet.
Well, you see, when people talk about the Internet, they're usually talking about the Internet that was because it's moving so quickly.
For example, I just read a paper by a guy named Alexander Cheslenko out at the media lab at MIT, and he's talking about plug-ins that will translate websites of one language into another.
Well, now imagine when people can put up websites in Telugu, Witoto, Russian, French, you name it, and you can automatically slide into those websites and see what's going on.
Let me make one point here before we leave this time thing.
I said I'd identified a tendency in the universe which science had missed, which was to conserve novelty.
And then you asked about the Internet, which sort of led me to the second half of the observation.
Not only does the universe have this preference for novelty, but each acceleration into novelty has preceded more quickly than the ones which preceded it.
So for instance, the slow cooling out of the universe led to the slightly more rapid appearance of organic chemistry, which led to the quite rapid evolution of higher plants and animals, which led to the hysterical pace of human history.
And I see no reason to suppose that that process of acceleration will ever slow down.
It's an exponentially accelerating process, which leads to a kind of end of the world scenario that has made a lot of people place me out with the squirrels, because I'm saying that this process of novelty is now moving so quickly that within our own lifetime,
it is going to accelerate essentially to such an intensity that we will be experiencing more novelty in a few weeks or days than we've previously experienced in the whole life of the cosmos.
Yes, where I've gone further than most people is a lot of people have noticed the time is speeding up phenomenon, but they tend to give credit to science or media or something like that.
I mean, I sat here as I listened to you the first half hour in shock because I realized you were describing exactly what I wrote about.
And what I did, Terrence, I realized that a lot of people say this quickening or whatever you want to call it, whatever name you want to put to it, is a byproduct of mass communication.
And I began to realize, uh-uh, no, it is not a product of mass communication.
Yes, we're hearing about it more and more volumes of it, but in fact, in fact, what you are describing is really going on.
And I documented that much in my book, In Real Everyday Life, in each one of these areas and many more.
I documented the fact that it is not mass communication that is beginning to quicken things, but there is another process at work.
Now, I don't know what that is, and I don't know where it's leading.
In other words, people will say, well, when we finally get to this crunch point, whatever that is, what will happen?
And I don't have that answer.
I'm just a talk show host, an observer.
But maybe you do.
When we finally reach what you call time wave zero, what is going to happen?
Well, the only way to predict what's going to happen is to look at the quality of what has happened as the quickening, as you call it, has begun to accelerate.
What it's been characterized by is dissolution of boundaries between classes of people, bodies of knowledge, pools of capital, language groups, so forth and so on.
And so it seems to me ultimate novelty must be a situation where all boundaries are dissolved.
And of course, what that looks like, I don't know.
I don't know whether it's a virtual reality where you become God through the public utilities or exactly what it is, but it's clear to me that the human nervous system is globalizing itself, building a model of conscious thought on a planetary scale.
Tens of thousands of people are participating in this.
None of them have a real notion what it's all about, but everyone is serving this sort of unfolding grand design.
And, you know, I think the emergence of alphabets was part of the quickening.
I think the emergence of hominids out of more primitive primates was part of this quickening.
I think this is the business that this planet has been about for a very, very long time.
I mean, we've been talking about this as a metaphor.
What makes me, I hope, a little different from some of the other prophets in the marketplace is I've got a formal mathematical theory that, you know, I mentioned habit and novelty, this dualistic flow.
Well, because it is a dualistic flow, it can be portrayed like the ebb and flow of the price of a stock or something like that.
In other words, it can be portrayed as a line graph.
So I've written computer Programs which produce what I call novelty waves.
In other words, time-scaled waves that picture the ebb and flow of novelty.
And by fitting known historical and paleontological and geological data against these waves at different scales, I was able to finally discern a best fit.
But the conclusion that it led to was even, well, was very startling to me, which is this ultimate novelty, this transcendental object at the end of time, isn't millennia in the future.
It is, in fact, slated to collide with historical necessity sometime in late 2012.
Well, it's existed for thousands of years in China.
It's sometimes done by throwing 50 stocks, or sometimes done with coins.
But it's a method of producing a thing called a hexagram, which is made up of either broken or unbroken lines, but six on top of each other.
So if you're a mathematician, you can figure if it's made up of broken and unbroken lines and there's six of them on top of each other, there must be a possibility of 64 of these things.
And thousands of years ago in China, there was a vast body of literary commentary built up around these hexagrams.
And they have always been presented in a traditional order, a certain way that they are always presented.
And I was studying a very academic question, which is, is this order of these hexagrams a true order, in other words, governed by rules, or is it simply a random jumble sanctioned by tradition?
And this very obscure academic question led ultimately to the discovery that the I Ching was a 384-day 13-lunar cycle calendar.
And then from there, I realized that this 384-day calendar was actually a nested subset in a fractal timekeeping scheme that was really more accurate and more sophisticated than anything in the West.
So what I'm really suggesting here is that in the same way that the West conquered the nature of matter through the elaboration of modern science, about 4,000 years ago in China, a deeper analysis of time was carried out than has ever been undertaken in the West,
and that the mathematics of this thing became buried then in this fortune-telling system.
And I basically teased it out.
And in my book, The Invisible Landscape, and at my website, all this stuff is explained.
Well, the interesting thing, you see, Art, is with a wave like that, you can do what's called retrodicting.
In other words, if you have a wave of novelty that describes the past, you have to correctly predict the Italian Renaissance, the Greek Enlightenment, the modernity of the 20th century.
And so by predicting the past, we've gained confidence that this wave predicts the future.
There is only one point in the entire cycle where the level of habit drops To zero.
Effectively, then novelty becomes infinite.
And that point occurs on this solstice date in 2012.
Now, it's very interesting.
There are some people on the net called Singularists, and they're hard-headed engineering types.
And they take things like rate of energy release, rate of data storage, this sort of thing, and draw all their curves out.
And they conclude that sometime between 2008 and 2020, everything, we produce infinite amounts of energy, we pack infinite amounts of data into infinitely small spaces.
In other words, this same sort of thing where because of the acceleration built into the unfolding of this novelty process, we're going to cross more territory between here and 2012 than we've crossed between the Big Bang and getting to here.
It kind of explains what's happening, you know, that it isn't the old-style religion, that it isn't the sterile, steady state of science either.
It's that the universe is actually involved in some kind of process of self-metamorphosis, and human beings indicate that we have crossed some boundary into a new era, a new epoch of ever greater acceleration into this process of self-revelation.
I mean, this is what religions are raving about.
This is what every prophet on the street corner is trying to articulate.
I think it's real.
I think we're getting a lot of static because people can only deal with it through images that they know.
You know, Marshall McLuhan once said we drive into the future using only our rear-view mirror.
And that's sort of what it is.
But I call this thing the transcendental object at the end of time.
And I think, you know, in a sense, religion, Christian revelation, it will all be fulfilled in a way none of us ever suspected because nature has this appetite for novelty and acceleration into novelty.
Well, I've thought about this a good deal, and there are hard and soft scenarios, but I've noticed that what the time wave seems most coherently able to track is technology.
Somehow technology is very important.
It's the transformation of the human relationship to the world through tools.
And so what I'm thinking would fulfill this entire scenario without requiring God Almighty to put in an appearance is time travel.
I think that we are moving toward, you know, if you look at biology over huge scales of time, hundreds of millions of years, it is a kind of conquest of dimensionality.
Well, when I asked that question to my sources, they said you can only travel as far back into the past as the moment of the invention of the first time machine, because before that, there were no time machines.
It's like trying to drive where there are no roads.
It also means when you invent the first time machine, instantly time machines will appear by the tens of thousands, having come back through time to see the first flight into time.
Well, I think not by many, but I was called it by him.
Everybody else kept their mouth shut.
Well, I have my method.
I'm very interested in the psychedelic experience.
I was raised Catholic, and what I kept of that was an enormous thirst for the paranormal, the miraculous, supernatural.
And I went to India, and I made the rounds of the gurus and the geches, and I didn't find what I was looking for.
But when I went to South America, to the jungles down there, I discovered that LSD was only the tip of the psychedelic iceberg.
And what I had taken to be modern science and modern chemistry was actually a tradition of shamanism and religious use of psychedelic plants that was thousands and thousands of years old.
And that fascinated me because I actually, it worked for me.
The lines are absolutely alive, and everybody out there, just relax for a little while.
I have some advice for you.
My guest is a very, very unusual person whose name is Terrence McKinna.
In order to properly appreciate what you're about to hear, if you're just joining us in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and so forth, you're going to have to pretty much put down whatever you're doing.
I'll turn the radio up a little bit and listen very carefully because it makes a lot of sense.
But you've got to listen carefully.
Terrence McKenna, we'll find out more about him in a moment, lives on the side of an active volcano in Hawaii.
An interesting place to choose to live by itself.
And an interesting man indeed.
So Terrence, more of Terence McKenna.
coming up.
Prepare yourself for an experience.
Here's what was written to me about Terrence McKenna before we invited him on the program.
Art, have you heard about Terrence McKenna's theory called time wave zero?
He suggests that as we get closer to time wave zero, we are experiencing tachyon radiation from it.
Evidently, the impending event is so colossal that it will emit such intense radiation that some of it takes the form of faster than light speed tachyon particles or waves which can travel faster than light and that they're actually being hurtled backward in time.
The closer we get to the event, the greater the radiation density.
Hence, the more frequently and intensely we experience paranormal phenomena associated with it.
We'll ask about that, by the way.
We haven't yet.
This could be the mechanism behind what you call the quickening.
The event we are approaching will probably be something tantamount to a white hole or a mini Big Bang.
It will, for all intents and purposes, be the end of time for us.
Terrence believes it will occur consistent with the Mayan calendar in the year 2012.
Now, by the way, he has derived this independently of the Mayan calendar.
He simply has discovered that it coincides with it.
He goes on, it is not unreasonable to assume that ETs possessing UFOs, if they exist, will be flocking here to research, or rather, pre-search, the phenomenon.
It is also believed that tachyon bombardment would have bizarre effects on the human nervous system, visions, that sort of thing, as well as physical manifestations in the environment, like the clearwater virgin, bizarre mutations like the chupacabra, and heaven knows what else.
All the stuff you attribute to the quickening might be explained by this.
And after listening to the first hour, I must agree, Terrence, I'm stealing one more bit of time to read you a fact that I think relates and challenges you a little bit.
It is from Stephen in Wichita, and it's well thought out.
Here it is.
Art, I'm not sure that you can equate novelty with either acceleration or complexity.
Nature has always been novel, and surprisingly so considering earlier periods in Earth's history.
Given that over 90% of all species that have ever lived are now extinct and the exotic body designs, it would seem novelty is a given.
But in order to be effective, it must have a survival advantage and be passed on.
Once the novelty becomes a hindrance, It disappears.
Acceleration may be more a factor of population density.
Virtually all of the social problems we face today have been duplicated years ago in rat population density studies.
Our novel inventions of this century have simply allowed us to artificially compress distance and time by modes of travel and communications.
Profit motives have directed and limited the novelty of our civilization in this century as never before, and we're becoming a hindrance.
The higher the population density, the more the acceleration seems to be.
Anecdotal but relative, compare the pace of a small country town to a large city with its population density and resulting problems accelerated by stress and profit motives.
I think there's certainly been ebb and flow of novelty within the 20th century, parts of it more novel than others.
But I think to argue that it isn't among the most novel periods in time is a pretty uphill baffle.
The question is whether novelty is something which simply adheres to statistical dynamics or whether it's a real direction, a real arrow that is directing process.
And that's what I maintain.
I think it's not true to say that the biota of the Earth today is not more novel than it was in the past.
Certainly there are novel forms of life which have undergone extinction, but the proliferation of human life, which is an advanced animal plus a culture-creating creature, indicates to me that we're at a level of novelty that this planet has never before experienced.
Of course, it's an arguable thing because history, which is what we're always comparing these waves to, is not yet a quantified thing.
I mean, how do you rate the War of the Roses over Queen Anne's War or something like that?
But nevertheless, though we don't have an absolute quantification of history, there is general agreement among historians that events like the Renaissance, the Greek Golden Age, the 20th century, are periods where a great deal of novelty in social forms and technologies was concentrated.
You put together a computer program which was able to trace the ebb and the flow of this novelty and, in effect, chart major events in history.
How many, if I might ask, hits and misses when you got this in final development and then you look at each point in history, how many hits and misses, were there any misses in the model, or did you hit each major moment in history on the nose?
I submit to you and to the world for your examination and critiquing the fact that, yes, the time wave with its end point in December 21st, 2012, describes with as great an accuracy as I am able to discern the actual vicissitudes of novelty and habit in history and natural history.
Well, among mathematicians, yes, and there's a lively debate raging on the internet about that.
Let me say something, though, here about science and why the acceptance of the time wave can't really occur under the tent of ordinary science.
You have mentioned repeatability.
Repeatability is the idea at the very basis of the scientific method, at the very basis of experimenting with what's called restoration of initial conditions.
But now notice that what the time wave theory is saying is that every moment in time is a unique moment.
Yes, you can, but you cannot assume that you're doing it probabilistically.
In other words, essentially, when you really understand philosophically what the time wave is saying, it's an enormous attack on probability theory.
You know, the way science works now is if you want to know how much energy is flowing through a wire, you take a thousand measurements, you add them together, and you divide by a thousand, and then you have the currents flowing through the wire.
But notice that that assumes that it doesn't matter what time you make the measurement.
And so much of science is like this to the point where I am redefining science and saying science is the study of those phenomena so coarse-grained that the time in which they occurred does not affect them.
And that leaves out, then, history, love affairs, corporate takeovers, empire building, everything interesting in the human world is too fragile, Too finely embedded in the context of its time to be open to that kind of scientific modeling.
So, in other words, they're really relatively small, insignificant events that don't enter into the larger measurements you're making of this ebb and flow.
Well, for instance, on a given day when the chart says novelty will be high, certainly somewhere in the world someone is having a very unnovel day.
It's a statistical thing, a bell curve, no reference to you, Art, but a bell curve where when the wave is predicting high novelty, most people, most systems will experience that novelty, but of course some will not.
It's the idea that probability is ebbing and flowing.
You know, when you study statistics, the first thing they teach you is when you flip a coin, the odds are 50-50 heads or tails.
If that were true, the coin would land on its edge every single time.
So what's really happening is that what are called secondary and tertiary factors are causing the coin to be heads or tails.
I say no.
There are zones in time where heads are favored and zones in time where tails are favored.
The idea that time can be described as a perfectly smooth surface and then dealt with statistically is just a first path with Greek idealism, and careful examination of nature shows it to be inadequate in the same way that perfect circles were inadequate for describing planetary motion.
You are therefore saying that conventional science does not have and cannot have, with its present course of investigation, a proper understanding of time.
That's right, because it assumes that it is to be analyzed with statistics, and that flattens out and denies the difference among various times and types of time.
And I got myself to the University of California at Berkeley right at the time of the anti-war movement and all of that.
It was like a kid in a cultural candy store and studied philosophy, art history, and then went off to Asia basically to check out the hash dens and the gurus.
And the hash was fine, but the gurus just wanted into my pocket.
And so then I went to South America.
And as I mentioned, that's where this shamanism thing just really grabbed me.
Well, I was thinking, you know, I don't think it's been published in this country, but this wonderful book called Around in Circles by Jim Schnabel, to my mind, that blows the lid off the whole cross circle thing.
You and I could spend a whole evening, Art, discussing the relationship of the media to the human psyche, to how people handle evidence.
Because I really think the psychedelic community has evidence to give on these paranormal questions that has never been properly heard and evaluated because the ordinary society's attitude towards people who use psychedelics is that they are automatically unreliable.
And a lot of guests that I've had on who have been into the very same areas we're in right now very politically, correctly rejected out of hand.
You don't need it to accomplish this, they say, that you can do it within yourself.
And I don't reject that thought either, but I would like to hear the case that you would present for psychedelics opening the doors that you're talking about, that in fact they do.
It occurs in a number of plant species throughout the world.
It's utilized by native peoples.
And in the pure form out of the laboratory, when you smoke this stuff, you find yourself inside the flying saucer that all these dazzled people are raving about.
But you found yourself there by initiating an action on your own.
In other words, repeatability.
And after about three minutes of spending time with the self-transforming ELF machines and their technologies, you're deposited back in your apartment pretty much none the worse for wear.
Well, now let's give this stuff to the leading lights of the UFO community or anyone else who has an interest in unusual psychological or paranormal phenomena.
Now, what you are saying is so serious and is such a large revelation that is it not possible that you are, in a sense, doing what you're doing right now, violating the prime directive?
Well, you know, it's only been about 100 years since the news began to arrive in the lap of Western civilization that there were these psychoactive plants scattered around the world.
The first one was the peyote cactus, and in 1888, mescaline was extracted from that.
I think it's not without implication that right at our moment of greatest cultural crisis, when we're destroying the environment and uprooting the rainforests and so forth and so on, that out of those same rainforests comes a phenomenon which, if we will face it squarely, offers a severe challenge to our notion of how reality works and how the world is put together.
Well, this may have already happened in the sense that there are many known cases of people collecting promising plants from only one known source and then returning a few months or years later to find the whole thing paved over.
I think we are contributing to it as we uncover it within ourselves.
Something is calling us toward itself, and as we approach it, we become more like it.
Something is sculpting out of a primate body over a couple of million years, an entirely different kind of creature.
And as we go to meet this thing, which I call the transcendental mystery at the end of time, we are taking on more and more of its characteristics, its godlike power, its ability to span space and time.
And when we Finally, do reach it, I imagine there will be a kind of effortless moment of merging and recognition.
Signposts along the way, life on Mars, maybe Europa, cloning, the rise of the internet, virtual reality, nanotechnology, possibly alien artifacts, all that, all that and more.
One image I carry of this thing, Art, is, you know, those mirrored balls they hang in dance clubs that send scintillations racing around the walls.
Well, the scintillations are distortions of the thing.
And so as we approach this transcendental object at the end of time, there will be more and more breakdown of ordinary reality and more and more distorted scenarios of what it is.
Well, what makes it so attractive in a discussion like this art is it's one of the most powerful of all the psychedelics, but it only lasts five minutes.
So someone who has spent a lifetime dissing psychedelics or denying the existence of the paranormal for that matter should at least be willing to invest five minutes.
We've never lost anybody.
You pick yourself up and go on about your business.
Well, LSD is a kind of psychological self-examination and strange thought processes and insights.
What happens with DMT is there is the unmistakable feeling of having gone to a place.
In other words, it comes on in about 15 seconds, and suddenly you're in a place.
And this place is full of what I call self-dribbling, jeweled basketballs that are intelligent in some sense.
They're like badly trained Rottweilers.
They come bounding forward and what they're doing in there is they're conducting some kind of a language lesson because they speak, they have a language which you can see is the only way I can explain it.
Well, the problem is, you recall I said it only lasts five minutes.
So unusual amounts of it in the body are very quickly brought down to baseline.
It's one of the most transient drugs in the body ever observed.
And an interesting thing about it, Art, is when they measure its presence, they look at human cerebrospinal fluid and they've discovered that it reaches its greatest concentration there between 3 and 4 in the morning.
Well, that's when people are doing the intense REM dreaming.
And so I think what, you know, the Australian Aboriginals have this concept of the dream time.
And I think when you put the dream time, the chemistry of DMT, the abduction stories together, and the depth with which modern media has programmed and messed with people, you're very close to being able to begin to talk about the alien phenomenon.
I think there are aliens, but I think they can only reach us through our minds.
They don't cross the universe in ships of titanium.
They don't even project holograms of themselves into the desert air.
They come through the human mind.
And if you look at the human mind, in all cultures and in all times and places, except Western Europe, in a few intellectuals in the past few hundred years, the human mind has always been haunted by sprites, gnomes, mixes, elves.
So I don't see the UFO, the modern wave, as anything more than the latest wave of this mysterious relationship we Have with disembodied minds through the imagination.
Well, then people say, well, so this is the old psychological reduction argument.
No, because when I say the human imagination, I don't mean some paltry psychological function.
I think the human imagination is the largest part of us and where we're going to spend most of the rest of human history.
How is such a theory greeted by the majority of people who listen to it?
I mean, right now I'm getting a lot of faxes, and a lot of people are really hearing what you're saying, even though you've got to listen very carefully.
They're hearing what you're saying, Terence, and a lot of them are agreeing with you.
But there's going to be a big body of very violent disagreement, too, isn't there?
There are some very large eggs at stake in this game.
I mentioned science and the need to revive probability theory.
There's a lot of vested interest in certain versions of what the UFO phenomenon is.
But you see, what I bring to all of this, and speaking for the psychedelic community, what we bring to all of this is not simply another wrap or another tall tale, but a method.
So then, would you suggest that sightings of UFOs, abduction encounters, are, if you could be there measuring a burst of DMT, you'd certainly find it at that moment?
Well, I've never heard of it, but your chain of logic is making sense to me.
Now, let us talk for a second about paranormal events.
As we approach time wave zero, it is your contention, I think, that paranormal events, ghosts, poltergeists, paranormal events of all manner and shape will begin to increase, which would suggest, I think, that DMT spikes will be increasing.
Well, the way things are going, we'll probably all be tossed in pokey for it.
We'll have little roadside stops and DMT measuring devices.
well i think it's a quick bad and all of that You made a fascinating statement.
I said, well, if there's time travel, where are the time travelers?
Your answer was they will not be here until the first time machine is invented because you could not go back to a time prior to the invention of a machine that would enable travel.
Your parallel was you can't travel where there are not roads, and there are not roads back that far in time.
If time is to virtually end by 2012, Terence, where would you see the invention of time machine, a time machine, the first time machine, between now and then?
In other words, if what the time wave zero thing is showing is that events can be portrayed in this linear way as a line on a graph, that suddenly in 2012, for some mysterious reason, this can no longer be done, it must be because in 2012 time ceases to be linear.
And that must mean that's because a technology is created which causes time to lose its linear and serial quality.
Well, actually, that's my conservative model of what would happen.
What's against that is, I'm sure you've heard this, the well-known grandfather paradox, which is time travel is always said to be impossible because you travel back in time and you could kill your own grandfather.
How do we avoid this?
I think we avoid it by actually what happens when the first time machine is invented is the rest of universal history happens instantly.
This is the only way paradox can be kept out of the picture.
I thought that, you know, these DMT creatures, what are they?
And the conservative position, since we know there are human beings, is they must be some kind of human being.
But what kind?
And the only answer I can come up with is souls.
I mean, I resisted this, but is it possible that shamans have been using plants to peer into the great beyond and that there is a kind of ecology of souls out there?
When you ask the shaman, they say, well, you weren't listening.
We told you we did it with ancestor magic.
Say, oh, I get it.
An ancestor, an ancestor is actually a dead person.
I begin getting about 25% of my faxes that say, well, this is the lowest point you've ever hit, Art.
This is the worst you've ever done.
And then the rest of them, the people that are really listening, say things like, my God, this is brilliant.
I've been waiting for this.
best show you've ever had.
And it goes one way or the other.
But I've learned over a period of time to kind of gauge the reaction about that way, and that's exactly what we're getting.
What you're getting is something you've probably never heard before.
Uh, and it's coming from a man named Terrence McKenna, on the big island of Hawaii.
If it rubs you the wrong way, you know where the dial is.
If on the other hand you have the time to sit down and really listen to what's being said, not reacting, um, like a Neanderthal with your head hitting the table, then you're gonna come away from this, uh, thinking some new thoughts.
All right, we are shortly going to go to the phone lines with Terrence McKenna.
That should be an interesting adventure unto itself.
But I want to ask you, Terrence, about a little bit about souls.
You mentioned souls, and so I have two questions.
One is, there was a recent, not recent, very old, medical study in which a medical doctor actually endeavored to set out and prove in days when it was politically okay to do this kind of thing, that the soul could actually be measured, that at the very instant of human death, and he went through a whole big trip.
I put the medical report up on my website, the human body loses about three quarters of an ounce, and not due to gases or anything else you might imagine in your mind, no physical cause, all of that accounted for.
And he printed and published this medical study suggesting the human body, actually instantly at the instant of death, loses three quarters of an ounce of weight.
Well, looking at it through the eyes of novelty theory, I think nature is very reluctant to give up a complex ordered form once it's been achieved.
I've noticed that the difference between living organisms and things like chairs and tables, the chairs and tables don't metabolize.
In a sense, the soul is something which is manifest in time.
It's almost as though organisms have a hyperdimension.
They're objects with time folded inside of them.
And at death, what seems to happen is this complex morphogenetic field, if you will, simply withdraws back into whatever higher dimension it came from in the first place.
It's not that it falls apart or dissolves.
It's that it retracts from matter.
It clothed itself with matter for some decades, and now it's simply releasing its organizational power over matter, but it isn't being destroyed.
Well, 2020, about a week ago, did a truly fascinating segment.
Maybe you heard me talking about it on the program.
Damned a thing.
They followed a 57-year-old woman who received both a heart and lung transplant from a teenage boy.
When she woke up from the operation, she had the immediate cravings, I mean immediate cravings, of a teenage boy.
And if that's not enough for you, Terrence, she, of course, had no idea who the donor was, but she had a dream in one of the successive nights in which she dreamt the name of the donor.
All of this was chronicled on 2020.
Now, again, it goes to the question of the nature of the soul, but I mean, these are physical body parts.
And the obvious implication here is that some essence of that boy was transferred to this woman.
And it is not the only case of this.
It has been noted again and again in transplant cases.
Well, you know, we have memories, and we've never located, though we believe they are in the brain.
We've never proven or demonstrated that.
My friend Rupert Sheldrake, the British physicist, he believes everything has a kind of memory, objects, organs, ideologies, and that these things surround objects like auras and follow them through time.
That you can't move a heart or an organ from one body to another without some of the, dare we say it, karma associated with it coming with it.
So it, again, is really evidence of, I don't know if I dare use the word soul because I'm not sure That is the soul, but it certainly is some sort of transference that is occurring that indicates that maybe our soul or our being is in no central location, but rather a total part of it, yes?
Yes, this is what we're saying, that in a sense it withdraws into what I call hyperspace.
You know, in a way you could say the body is a lower dimensional sectioning of a higher dimensional object, which is the soul-body complex.
unidentified
And on the other point I wanted to touch on, as far as your uniqueness curve, how do you account for the chaos theory that there are random particles in the universe affecting the interaction of particles that they come by?
I will agree with you that nature as a large system is circular.
No, I think this word you introduced into the question, random, this word is a word out of probability theory and statistics.
I mean, there may be random processes in the universe, but so far the only ones we've ever found were inside random number generators produced by mathematicians.
In other words, it's a nice, simple supposition to suppose there are processes that can be described as random, but the more we look at nature, the more we find order.
Chaos theory is misunderstood by a lot of people as using the old notion of chaos as disorder.
But what chaos for modern mathematicians is, is almost a super kind of order, a superfecaned medium out of which perturbations to higher states of order can spontaneously emerge.
This is what Ilya Prigozing and Ralph Abraham and all these people are talking about.
I interviewed a scientist who now has a private company called Pear Inc.
He produces, you may know about this, he produces a computer program in which you are able, which is a gigantic random number generator designed to run on a good, fast computer.
And it enables you to pull down two pictures.
For example, one of random absolute noise on the left, and the other of, it wouldn't matter, the scene of a mountain or any other physical photograph that you might want to bring down.
It gives you many choices.
You put them side by side, Terrence.
Well, you can do it either way, cause the random noise to disappear, bringing the picture into perfect clarity, resolution.
Or you can work on it the other way and try to cause the picture to be completely consumed by the random noise.
And the suggestion is, and there is a rating given at each sitting, the suggestion, and apparently the proof is, that you, with your mind, are able to affect a rapidly generating random number sequence generator, whatever.
Yes, there's a site on the web called the Retro Psychokinesis site where they claim you not only can move these random number generators around, but you can move them around in the past.
In other words, yes.
In other words, they invite you to numbers are being flashed on the screen.
They invite you to concentrate on the numbers being odd or even.
And then they demonstrate that to a small percentage, people can actually push this in the direction they want it to go.
They tell the people they're generating the numbers in real time, but they've actually made a tape three weeks before and put it in a vault, and the people are still able to push it the way they want.
In other words, in some sense, they accomplished what they set out to do before they set out to accomplish it.
So, yes, there's lots of this stuff being statistically studied, and it's very amenable to being demonstrated on the web.
And what it really brings, Art, is the sense that physics, which was the paradigmatic science in terms of rigor and reason, has just the inmates have taken over the asylum.
And the word hasn't reached Biology yet, still left.
I think what we're going to discover is that how you move around in time is not determined by the laws of physics, but determined by cultural programming.
And that this is what's going to tear open shamanism and yoga and some of these other things.
We are not, we are far more imprisoned by cultural convention than we are by physical law.
But Mr. Bell, I'd like to say first, I heard earlier on the news that scientists have discovered a substance in cats' brains that enable them to, when they take catnaps, if you recall, when they wake up, it's instantaneous and they're very alert.
They said that this will lead within the next two to three years a sleeping pill for humans without side effects where when they wake up, they will wake up instantly and alert.
The first one, for most of my life, I heard people say that everyone has dreams.
I never, ever remembered, never recalled a dream.
And about eight years ago, there was a scientific report that stated that there is approximately 5% of the population of people that do not have dreams.
When I go to sleep, it's like a rock.
And I wanted to mention that, and then I'll give you my second question.
And Victor will be using a voice-changing device in describing his experience at Area 51 during the alien interrogation.
We have a worldwide exclusive on my website right now, a second photograph, the second photograph, of the alien interrogation.
Whitley Streeber and a few other select people have seen the entire thing with great emotional reaction.
But tomorrow night, you will hear Victor for an hour at Midnight Pacific.
He will then be followed by Sean David Morton.
It should be quite an evening.
For now, and by the way, that photograph, you really should see it between now and tomorrow.
Don't miss it, www.artbell.com.
And as you listen to Terrence McKenna this night, also know that if you go there, there is a link to the website where you can find materials on Terrence McKenna.
Do you think the reason why people generally, like remote viewers, for instance, lose credibility is because, like psychics, they have a distasteful track record and don't predict stuff like the Oklahoma bombing or a bank robbery before it happens?
And do you think that time machines can be, the possibility the future of time machines might have something to do with something that's very normal in nature, such as extreme shockwave technology and just normal physical things that happen generally in the mainstream physics that will create synthetic time travel reality?
Well, I don't know from what direction time travel is going to come.
It used to be completely unrespectable to discuss it in the scientific literature.
And if you run literature searches now, you'll see over the past 10 years, this has gone from unmentionable to quite respectable.
There's a book called Time Travel in Physics and Science Fiction by Nabum that will definitely bring you up to speed on the many, many approaches to time travel.
It's been known since 1948.
There was a paper by Kurt Girdle with a scheme for time travel that would work.
It simply requires that you spin a cylinder half the size of the solar system at the speed of light.
But everybody agrees if you could do that and then travel along its transverse axis, you would be moved backward into time.
So sort of in the way we started out with vacuum tubes and now go to the Pentium, we have now very rude Goldberg approaches to time travel.
But I'm sure by 2012 we will have brought this to a kind of perfection.
And I think the human imagination is as solid as the real estate you're standing on, Art, and that when this is understood, there will be a kind of migration into the human imagination.
And that this is, you know, time travel, spaceflight, immortality.
We have these terms for these things, but what is really coming is going to be all this and more.
Our way of talking about it is inevitably incredibly quaint because we talk about it inside the very culture it's going to make obsolete.
This comes from my wife at the beginning of the program.
She knew that you were the one to follow on in Timothy Leary's footsteps, and so she thought she would ask you, it is rumored, or it is perhaps a legend, that Timothy had squirreled away like a treasure trove at some secret location 25,000 hits of Blue Sandos.
I am of the belief that there are two types of people in the world, basically, like people who have had psychedelic experiences, people who haven't, and the vast difference in their ways of thinking Once they have had a psychedelic experience, that's why it's illegal.
Yeah.
What is the direction I wanted to ask Terrence that he sees this state now where it is illegal and why it is keeping, I think, our civilization down to its dreadful state?
I think that if it could be, you know, like through mass awareness somehow, like get, I don't know, like, I don't know, I just wish it could be legal so people, I think, could go to the next level that we are, you know, coming towards so fast with, I don't know, like things speeding up.
I mean, everybody feels it, I believe, everybody that I know.
I mean, I'm a bit of a pessimist on this subject because I take psychedelics so seriously.
I can't imagine them ever being really legal unless there's a total social transformation because my analysis of it is the reason everybody from a Marxist state to a Christian oligarchy to a high-tech industrial democracy can get together and agree that psychedelics are a terrible,
terrible thing is because the social effect of psychedelics being taken by large numbers of people is a kind of deconditioning from the cultural myths.
Whatever they are, it's no knock on any given society.
It's just that if people start taking psychedelics, they start questioning what they've been told about reality.
And culture is in the business of keeping you inside a set of predetermined answers to those questions.
Nor am I. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you up front, I am a professional stand-up comedian, and I guess sort of in the vein of Lenny Bruce.
So I do a lot of research, and I've read a lot of your writings, Mr. McKenna, including the Archaic Revival, Invisible Landscape, and also, excuse me, the CD that you have that you did with Space-Time Continuum.
Oh, yeah, The Alien Dreamtime, which was very fun.
unidentified
And I'm also familiar with Mr. Sheldrake's writings as well.
And I would say to the 25% dissenter faxes that you've been receiving, Art, that they are probably saying that because they're not familiar with a lot of what Mr. McKenna is saying.
It'll go right past them, and they hear one thing only, and they see devils.
And, you know, that's okay.
unidentified
Right.
Actually, in relation to what you're saying there, I would say that gentleman who considered Mr. McKennett to be in league with Satan, that the truth does not have an ideological agenda or anything like that whatsoever.
My question to you is, you're familiar with the writings of John Lilly?
Sure.
In my neighborhood, there's actually an isolation tank center, and I regularly go down there with mushrooms, and I'll hop into the tank while I'm doing mushrooms and whatnot.
I'm very fascinated by your writings on DMT, and what I'd like to know is how would I be able to locate DMT or the plants that it comes there from?
Well, first of all, Art, I just wanted to say about a year ago I talked to you, and you were telling me that I was doing myself a lot of harm by using psychedelics.
And I think Terrence is just good proof that someone can turn out all right.
Well, it was a rave in San Francisco and I talked about, if you can imagine this, I talked about the impact of psilocybin on human evolution to a backbeat.
This is something we haven't gotten into here, Art, but I have a whole other wrap on how mushrooms actually impacted and caused the breakthrough to self-reflecting human consciousness.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
Good morning.
unidentified
Good morning.
This is Larry in Peoria, Illinois.
Hi, Larry.
This is really very interesting because I've just recently read some of the excerpts from the psychedelic experience by Timothy Leary, just his take on the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
And I missed the first part of the show, so I'm sorry if this has already been talked about, but I was wondering what is basically the difference between DMT and LSD.
Well, LSD lasts hours and hours and tends to be, I think my own phrase is abrasively psychoanalytic.
Essentially, I think LSD does what most people think psychedelic drugs do.
They cause you to review past memories.
They cause you to see your life in a different light, so forth and so on.
DMT is not like that.
It seems to go beyond the personal dimension.
It doesn't matter, I think, who you are or where you started from.
It carries you into its own world, a world that is alien on its own terms and doesn't have a lot of information in it about your psychology or your dilemmas.
So it's less useful for psychoanalysis and more useful for exploring what I consider to be pretty dramatic paranormal dimensions considering they're so easily accessed.
unidentified
You're speaking about, it's interesting all this talk about dimensions and going to the next level.
I just had a psychedelic experience recently when I had a meditation on the nature of the universe as being like a geometric structure that's so immensely more vast and diverse than you can really explain.
Well, I think, you know, there's the vastness of space and time that we know about, but then as we look into the micro-dimension and we see how much there is in the atomic and subatomic world, I mean, the world is an amazing and dynamic place.
And this is why I'm so down on ideologies, because I think they're dusty mirrors to hold up to the splendor of the felt presence of the living universe.
And what I think I was referring to there was resource extraction, propaganda, pollution of the atmosphere, and this sort of thing.
If we continue to practice our cultural values as we have practiced them over the next thousand years, we're going to make the earth unfit for our children, which is a sin and a tragedy of such magnitude we don't even have a name for it.
all right there is a good about in a moment My guest is Terrence McKenna.
Terrence, again, with respect to Timothy, he, of course, as you well know, has been launched into orbit with a number of other notables.
And I was just wondering, again, referencing that 25,000 hits of Blue Santos, do you suppose it's possible that Timothy had them launched with himself and that orbital decay will provide one great last acid rain at about 2012?
So, Terrence, I've read, I think, all of your books, if not most of them, and In True Hallucinations, there's a part where you have a mushroom in the hut with you and your brother, and he makes a sound that you describe, but I think nobody else that, you know, unless we were there, we wouldn't understand the sound, makes the mushroom glow, or appear to.
And you were speaking before about human consciousness interacting through resonance with the universe around us.
And I wonder if you could sort of explain how those two things tie in.
And in doing so, I'd like to ask you if you've read The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.
Resonance is the principle, almost magical, of action at a distance.
You know, you can play a certain open note on the cello, and the piano 50 feet across the room will sound in the same octave.
So resonance, we know it exists.
It's a musical phenomenon.
But what we need to realize, I think, is that resonance is built into time.
Time, in a sense, you could say a given moment in time is a kind of hologrammatic interference pattern of past times, and I consider those past times to be in resonance.
So one of the things Art and I haven't discussed tonight about my time wave is that it does allow you to look at a certain period of time and decide what it was in resonance with in the past, and those past epochs that are influencing it, then their influence can be seen in popular fads, furniture styles, what movies are up, that sort of thing.
unidentified
Now, with the DMT, you say it's produced in our bodies.
Can the DMT molecule in the brain change our electron spin resonance in the molecules in our brain?
And can that possibly make our brain act as an antenna that allows us to see all those other things that you're talking about?
Well, these are the kinds of ideas that my brother and I were playing with clear back in the early 70s.
And the tragedy, one of the tragedies of the repression of psychedelics is not that they were taken out of the hands of the curious public, but that they were made off-limits to scientific research.
Not that anybody put up a sign, but it was very clearly understood that pharmacologists who specialized in psychedelics could expect to be passed over, not promoted, not given the plum jobs.
I could spiel off a dozen questions, very interesting central questions about the mechanism of psychedelics that we could answer with ordinary clinical studies.
It's simply that how do you do ordinary clinical studies on substances that the government has made illegal?
Anything which falls into a black hole is deconstructed down to spin and angular momentum, and I think all other information is stripped out of it.
I think if there can be gravitational wells like that, then there can also be the kind of novelty wells that I'm suggesting.
Well, if statistical probability is not a very clear way of looking at the universe, if in fact probabilities vary through space and time of any given event, then there will be areas of extremely high improbability and conversely probability.
So I think we've got to get past this idea of time as a smooth surface and begin to think of it as a kind of landscape, a place where some things are more probable in some places and some things more probable in others.
You know, you look for water in the bottom of the valley.
You look for glaciers up on the slopes.
I think time has a topography.
It is a topological surface of some sort.
And science in the West has just completely sailed past all this.
unidentified
Well, how is it described?
Well, I don't want to make a long thing out of this.
Well, in Newton, it's described as pure duration, in other words, perfect flatness.
Then Einstein comes along and he says, well, no, in the presence of massive gravitational objects, space-time has a very smooth and slight curvature.
What I'm saying is that even at local scales, time is variable, and that when we explode time at any scale, we discover the same fractal patterns as we're seeing on scales far above and far below it.
So really, the far in it and far out of it.
So really what it is, is it's like a Fourier transform or something like that.
It's a holographic matrix that is self-similar on many scales.
The organization of a galaxy, the organization of an atom, these things, in my theory, are morphologically linked.
They look that way because they are linked across scale and across space and time by an underlying architecture of the universe.
You know, there's a big mystery now in cosmology, the dark matter mystery.
Where is 90% of the matter?
For the galaxies to be hanging together under the laws of gravity, 90% of them must be missing.
Well, it's this appetite for complexity, that every particle in the universe participates in this.
The galaxies hang together as spirals because it's the more novel thing to do, not because they are under the control of gravity, but because there is a cosmic law of aggregation toward novelty that we've missed.
unidentified
Would the Fourier be a way of measuring that, say with Fourier measurement of the brain itself or EEG?
You could measure it in many different kinds of matrices.
The point is to demonstrate it to somebody outside the system who's looking at it.
I think the breakthrough, the great breakthrough in mathematical modeling of nature in the last 20 years has been the discovery of fractals and self-similarity on many scales.
And this is part of that.
What I'm saying, really, is that time is a fractal structure.
It can be defined by a limited set of variables and then iterated on the micro scale, the macro scale, the human scale.
They're all operating under the same architectural constraints, but at different scales.
unidentified
You know, when I talk to my friends in the EEG world, I do a lot of EEG spectral analysis and stuff.
They think I'm nuts.
I say, well, if you want to buy my machine and operate, this is how the universe is.
And when I speak in these terms, it's like it's in a big hall, you know?
There's a lot of confusion in the sciences right now.
The complexity people are not talking to the dynamics people.
The poor materialists have all been crowded into biology.
Meanwhile, over in quantum physics, they're talking like occultists.
And none of the news has reached psychology and sociology yet.
The house of science is in incredible disarray, and it's because science's wish to describe nature, they've now dispensed with all the easy stuff.
Now we're asking questions like, what is language?
What is mind?
What is process?
These are very deep and difficult questions, and I think they're going to cause a revolution in the science and a reformation of its methods, or science is not going to be adequate to the game.
Okay, and I wanted to start by actually commenting on a couple things that have been said earlier this evening.
One, I'm looking really forward to 2012, and I'm looking really forward to being part of human evolution and being in control of that, really.
And I wanted to say about this throwing out of the rocks that, you know, it seems kind of Like that, God has already thrown out the rocks on this planet, you know, and that is plenty as is.
You know, that is the way things are, and that's the planet as we have it, and that should be plenty of knowledge as is, you know, for us to understand everything.
And I've had some experience with psychedelics, and I'm not finished yet, far from actually.
But the truth to it is that my own personal belief is that you achieve true enlightenment after being sober and meditating in sobriety and getting inside yourself.
Do you contemplate the possibility that your trip will be complete before 2012?
In other words, your personal trip, that you will conclude at some point that you've done as much as you need to do and know what you need to know and don't need to do it anymore?
What I would like to do is take my ideas and turn them over to a general community of interested people and let the chips fall where they may.
You know, science is the only human endeavor where you actually get points for proving you're wrong.
And I love that approach.
I'm not interested in pontificating or building dogma or founding a cult.
I'm interested in the ongoing adventure, which is a collective adventure, of generating ideas, testing them against reality and the evidence, discussing them with other people, and then going on to build better ideas.
And I cannot believe that Time Wave Zero is finished or complete because I have finished with it.
I'm hoping that like work done by greats in the past, this thing can actually be validated as a real insight into how nature works.
In your book, Food of the Gods, you talked about early proto-hominids encountering psychotropic plants, I guess, psilocybin, and that being sort of the catalyst for this incredible leap of human consciousness.
What about the next step in our evolution?
Do you see it coming through some sort of psychoactive substance that we either have yet to develop or encounter?
Well, I think that we have encountered these things.
I think the enormous creativity of the last half of the 20th century is a direct consequence of the rise of psychedelic chemistry and the breakdown of barriers between cultures.
In other words, most of the people designing and building the Internet have psychedelics in their past.
Most of the people in the music business, in fashion, in media, in scientific research, medical research, architecture, the dirty little secret about the creativity of 20th century civilization, at least in the last half of the 20th century, is that it rests so firmly on a psychedelic base, and yet we deny that.
I just wanted to relate an experience I had at one time using a hallucinogen.
Just during total concentration, I began to imagine molecules in the body, how they're circles, and how they circle each other.
And from that, I went out to a planetary scale, how this moon circles the sun, or the earth, and the earth circles the sun.
And it went on and on.
And I realized that, or I felt that circles were the key somehow to everything, the universe and everything.
And I had that confirmed one time watching a program about bees and how bees, when they build their hives, they build them in, well, they're hex-shaped, but hex are just circles attached to each other.
If somebody came on and said that a very religious person were to come on and to say the Lord is going to return in 2012, would you be calling and saying, what, bunk?
And I was wondering if, you know, I'm kind of looking at it as far as other life being out there.
Does this necessarily mean that maybe with NASA and the new discoveries being made, would this basically null the thought that there is other life out there?
It exists on the energy given by volcanic vending.
unidentified
So I'm thinking with the moon in Europa there's probably life, like NASA says, and I'm not sure if they admit to it, but billions of planets could sustain life throughout the universe.
I think that maybe this 2012 it just might be an enlightenment to where we move to a Who do you think is more likely to get there first?
Yeah, maybe we've been asking NASA the wrong questions.
unidentified
Well, yeah, that could be.
And like I say, I'm sure they, you know, back in the 70s when they looked at the face on Mars, you know, that's just scientific curiosity has to take you from there.
Even if you don't believe that it is a face on Mars or something, you still have to wonder, you know, without a better picture, you know, what is it?
Well, listen, our pagan ancestors also used a 13-month lunar calendar.
That's true.
Yeah.
And it's very interesting.
Each month they ascribed a tree to it.
And so I looked yours up.
And No surprise that you are the oak, the mighty oak.
But listen, in the personality profile, the first line was, the person who's born in the month of the oak is inclined to tell the truth without any regard to the consequences.
And as a matter of fact, the discussion we had the other night after the 2020 program may be centered right there.
In other words, when organs are transplanted from one person to another, there may be a genetic memory that is passed on and then fades as time goes on, as would seem to be evidenced by those who feel some special urgings or cravings or believe they are for a period of time part of another for some period of time.
Well, I know, but we also at the same time do not want to be blind to the possibility that there are avenues other than the ones we have yet traveled down, if you follow me.
This is CBC.
unidentified
The devil went down to Georgia.
He was looking for a soul to steal.
He was in a bind because he was way behind.
He was willing to make a deal.
Then he came across this young man saw him on a fiddle and playing it hot.
And the devil jumped up on a hinker's thumb and said, boy, let me tell you what.
I guess you're just annoyed, but I'm a fiddle player too.
And if you care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
Now you play pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due.
I've got a fiddle of gold against your soul because I think I'm better than you.
The boy said, my name's Johnny and it might be a sin.
But I'll take your bet you're going to regret because I'm the best as ever been.
Johnny, you're awesome, you're a boy.
Play your fiddle hard.
Midnight at the Oasis.
Say your camera to bed.
Shadows make in our faces.
Tracing the romance in our head.
Heaven's home in our head.
Shining just Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
you All right, don't forget, tomorrow night, Sean David Morton will be here at 11 o'clock.
And then at the midnight hour, the wedging hour here on the west coast, we will have, with a voice-changing device, Victor.
If everything goes as planned.
Now, it doesn't always.
Victor is the person responsible for taking the video that is alleged to be that of an alien creature being interrogated at Area 51 and smuggled out.
It will be a one-hour opportunity to ask Victor questions.
Now, that photograph, the second photograph, is on my website right now.
It is a worldwide exclusive.
It is nowhere else.
So take a look at it.
If you can, between now and tomorrow night's show, take a look at the photograph.
It is what we will be discussing.
Actually, it'll be a wider discussion, but it is relevant in the sense that it's from the video that Victor smuggled out of Area 51.
My website, and of course you can jump to Terrence's from my website as well, is www.artbell.com.
And I noticed that it has just now gone over 2.5 million main page hits since the first of the year.
I think it's 2,504,832 as I read it right now.
So there you are.
Anyway, make it on up there and take a look, for heaven's sakes.
I think you'll be, at the very least, intrigued, and certainly you don't want to miss Sean David Morton, nor do you want to miss Victor actually later tonight.
A couple hours ago, when that one Christian called in and said that your guest was a disciple of Satan, I'm sure you probably know that he did not mean that your guest was in a conspiracy with Satan, knowingly perpetrating lies and deception.
Yes, I know that, and I am not in denial with regard to it, nor do I disregard the probability that that connection is the correct connection.
I simply explore others as well, which will cause me to be thrown in a volcano eventually.
unidentified
No, but I think that you will.
I'm hoping in my heart that you do come to a knowledge of the truth.
And what I wanted to say about the caller's tone of voice and a lot of, well, some Christians, now I know some Christians are out there and they're militant.
And you said, like, if a UFO landed and an alien appeared, they'd be there with their shotgun just to go.
He said that it will not be possible and once it does become possible, then the time travelers will be here.
The proof that it is not now possible is that they are not.
unidentified
He also said something on the CD, Alien Dreamtime, that the psychedelic experience was something that brought you into a hyperspace in which you could look down upon the past and the present, which is not the same.
Anyway, getting back to the condemnation thing on Terrence, you know, I want you guys out there that are listening, my brothers and sisters in Christ, to concentrate on the love of Jesus, you know.
There is now no condemnation, that kind of thing.
And I also want to talk about substances and things.
After an acid trip that I had back during my teens, I realized that there were no evil things.
You know, you don't give a child a gun, right?
Because it's a dangerous object.
Yes.
And so you don't give people who are full of fear things like LSD or DMT or any of the other psychedelic drugs because they're going to have, like, caller a couple callers ago, bad experiences.
You've got to be well-grounded to, you know, what do you call it, the ally.
It really is one of the more reasonable comments you've ever made.
And of course, we all know guns don't kill people.
Rarely do they leap on up off the table and spray, that's the popular phrase, spray bullets about the room, putting holes through Christian-believing people.
They just don't do that.
It's the Christian-believing people and others who do that.
Well, Terence was suggesting that there will come a time when that machine will be invented, and from that moment on, you will see many tens of thousands or millions of time travelers.
unidentified
Sure, but say this moment in this place always exists, because that's where they would travel to.
So, I mean, this moment would not exist without those time travelers coming back, because if it did, then how could they travel here?
I guess a guy could really tie himself in the knots trying to think about that.
I found that it definitely intensified the senses.
I don't know how much enlightenment I gained from it, but it's...
Oh, very clear.
I didn't have any major problems with it, hallucinations that would cause me to attempt suicide.
It was an enjoyable experience for the most part.
Well, I never got to the point that these gentlemen were at where they have had visions or regular journeys?
Yes, sir.
I never achieved that point.
i've no longer use it much of my own choice right wouldn't recommend anybody trying to I wouldn't recommend anybody trying to buy it off of the streets, per se.
I found his Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide an interesting alternative.
In other words, what is purchased off the street is utterly an unknown, and unless you are a chemist of great repute and you can carefully analyze exactly what it is, then you have no idea, no idea whatsoever what you're getting.
And that probably would lead the inexperienced but eager to consider natural substances that is grown directly without modification from the earth.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
unidentified
Hi.
Art.
I just wanted to call in because I'm a little bit troubled that all of the people who seem to be calling in in favor of your guest, who I really enjoyed earlier.
Well, now I would say it's about 50-50 in the last hour if you count the people who said he was the devil.
unidentified
Right.
But I guess what concerns me is that everyone who seems to be calling in in favor of him are people who have either taken or want to take psychedelics.
Yeah, I mean, I think he just had some very interesting ideas.
And regardless, I hate to see mind-expanding ideas always linked to, not always linked, but In this case, so frequently linked to the use of psychedelics because there are other things that you can do to expand your mind and have new experiences and things like that as well.
I would say, in fact, the great majority of my guests who have talked of similar spiritual things have made very strong claims that the very same things can be achieved without the use of psychedelics.