Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

May 20, 1997 - Art Bell

02:45:45

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Pet Food - Ann N. Martin

Participants

Main voices

01:27:18

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Arkbell Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring coast to coast again from May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, or good morning, as the case may be.
		Under this great, big, beautiful full moon from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains, eastward to the Caribbean, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
		That skips a lot of us.
		South into South America, north to the Pole, and worldwide on the great old internet.
		This is Coast to Coast Agen.
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Marcell.
		And I'm not going to tell you what I've got coming up.
		In a moment, you'll fully understand.
unidentified		In a moment, you'll fully understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The following story is being related by a couple of young ladies in Higginsville, Missouri.
		The two ladies were shopping in Kansas City last week.
		Afterwards, they decided to eat at the Olive Garden, but there, they found a freshly deceased, freshly run over cat in their parking space.
		One lady is especially, perhaps unreasonably fond of cats.
		She could not stand the thought of leaving that dead cat there, so she took one of those brightly colored shopping bags, you know, the ones that stores give out at that time of year, and put the cat in it.
		She intended to take it home and give it a proper burial.
		But for the time being, she put it instead on the trunk of their car.
		Then the two women went into the restaurant.
		They ended up being seated in a raised area of that restaurant where they could see the car and they could see the people waiting to be seated.
		Well, eventually, a nicely dressed woman walked by their car, saw the bag on the trunk, and stole it, slipping it quickly under her coat.
		The thief then went on into the restaurant.
		There is a round fountain there around which people sit while waiting for a table.
		The woman with the bag under her coat sat on the steps of the fountain for a while.
		Our young ladies watched her closely.
		Apparently, she could no longer wait.
		She couldn't resist looking at her newly stolen prize.
		So she opened her coat and took a peek.
		She fainted, dead out, fell on the floor.
		The management called 911.
		The ambulance arrived, and the woman, who was still unconscious, was taken out on a gurney.
		As the paramedics were wheeling her out, someone said, wait a minute, here's her gift.
		And they placed the lightly colored bag on her stomach and took her to the ambulance.
		That's from Jack in Seattle.
		So, you know, the reason I think I told you that story is because not only was it somewhat humorous in a macabre kind of way, but it shows the way we feel about our pets.
		I have three cats, two relatively normal cats and one wild cat, Beryl.
		And I love cats, and I really do love cats.
		Don't ask me why, and I know a lot of you like dogs or cats or whatever.
		And a lady called the program the other morning and said, Art, did you know that pet food in America is made up of, along with other things, cats and dogs?
		And, you know, I do open line talk radio and I don't field calls here, as you probably understand.
		I don't screen calls.
		And so you're liable to get anything, and of course, that was under the category of anything, and I kind of doubted it.
		I said, my God, I hope you're wrong.
		You know, that's just too horrible to contemplate.
		Well, inevitably, it apparently turns out to be true.
		Now, I want to issue a warning at this point that what you're about to hear is going to disturb a lot of people.
		And so I issue my normal invitation to twist the dial at this point, if you wish, and turn away.
		Somebody will be talking about the budget that didn't or Newt Gingrich's fine that may not or something or another somewhere else on the dial.
		Because what we are about to talk about is not going to be very easy to intellectually digest.
		My guest comes from London.
		Not London, England, but London, Ontario.
		Her name is Anne Martin, and she has authored a book called, provocatively, Food Pets Die For.
		Anne, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		And I want to especially thank you.
		I know it's like quarter after two or something back in Ontario.
		Yes.
		So thank you for being with us.
unidentified		Oh, you're welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anne, when did you write this book?
unidentified		The book began basically seven years ago.
unidentified		The book is not published yet and won't be out until September.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		September.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's trace the beginnings of how you got into the middle of all of this anyway.
		First of all, let me just blankly ask you straight out.
		Is it true or not that our pet food is made up, at least to some degree, of our pets?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		no doubt no doubt no doubt com how do you How do you know this To be true, Anne?
unidentified		I was right here in London, Ontario, and this was back in 1991.
		A doctor in California had advised me that this was happening.
		California, yes, London, Ontario, it wouldn't happen.
		I started then.
		I was able to trace the dogs and cats, the euthanized dogs and cats, from animal clinics here in London.
		They were in turn being shipped about 500 miles from here.
		They were sent to a broker.
		The broker in turn was selling them to rendering plants in Quebec, whichever plant was paying the highest amount at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A rendering plant, for those who don't know, is what?
unidentified		A rendering plant is a facility where all types of garbage go.
		Dead animals of all kinds, restaurant grease and material, supermarket garbage.
		It's all sent to a rendering plant.
		These plants, well, put everything in a huge barrel, more or less, where it's cooked at varying temperatures for 20 minutes to an hour and is turned into, well, what we know as meat meal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		And that includes...
		Now, I always wondered, Ann, I once, as a young radio person, I had to go to an animal shelter and watch a little dog be put to sleep by a decompression method.
		And it was horrible.
		It was horrible.
		You know, it will scar me for the rest of my life having seen that.
		Now, you're telling me that they take these poor, unfortunate animals, killed in whatever manner they kill them, and turn them into pet food.
unidentified		Right.
		But, I mean, not just pet food, they also use it for livestock feed.
		So in a roundabout way, we in turn are eating our pets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		Now, in England right now, they're going through living hell with something called mad cow disease.
		Now, if I understand it correctly, they are feeding cows to cows.
		And they claim that this disease is born of that process, cannibalism, which then somehow has turned around, biting us.
		In other words, giving us some sort of horrible brain disease.
		Right.
		CJD.
		What is it?
unidentified		CJD.
		CJD.
		Right.
		Well, in humans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ann, if that can happen because cows are eating cows, then what can happen if cats are eating cats, dogs are eating dogs, or even worse yet, to contemplate, we are eating eventually the byproducts of our own pets?
unidentified		There again, the drugs I know here anyway, they use sodium pentabarbital to euthanize the dogs and cats.
		And they do use a compound, I believe it's called Fatal Plus, to euthanize some larger animals throughout Canada in the U.S. This drug withstands the rendering process.
		So it is going back into the food.
		So in other words, we're killing our pets off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fatal Plus, which kills them quite quickly and hopefully painlessly.
		Yes.
		Survives the rendering process and goes back again.
		All right.
		Now I would have said it the other way.
		I would have said not in California because California has such strict standards, regulations, laws.
		you can hardly move without violating something in California.
unidentified		Well, that was odd because...
		No.
		In doing research for this book, I did contact the department in California that more or less oversees what they call the Pure Pet Food Act.
		It's the only state in the U.S. that has such a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there you are.
unidentified		Okay, but I asked the gentleman if they were using rendered companion animals in pet food.
		I did get a letter back from him outlining meat byproducts, not what I was interested in.
		I went back to him and I said, the same question, could he tell me about the meat meal?
		Three times I went back to him.
		I didn't call because I wanted everything in writing.
		To this day, I've received no reply.
		I think the last time I contacted him was about two months ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		now how are these animals rendered i mean do they uh...
unidentified		dogs have for long and short what the book book how how did how do they do He advised me that cats and dogs are rendered with their fur on, with their tags, if they have flea collars on.
		The bags, the plastic bags that they're sent to the rendering plant in from vet clinics and so on, they're rendered.
		Everything goes in.
		Oh, God.
		Everything.
		It's a means of disposal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And why?
		Disposal.
		And why is this not common knowledge?
unidentified		I don't know.
		When I started this, I was absolutely shocked.
		I didn't know.
		This was the thing.
		Consumers don't know.
		And it was a matter of, I think the problem has been that it is extremely time consuming to find out any information from government officials.
		Well, even our vet clinics here, the vets were unaware of what was happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now, this is the one area of this whole topic that I covered with you earlier because I couldn't believe it.
		Now, naturally, I don't want to get sued, so we're not going to mention anything.
		we're not going to mention any manufacturers.
		However, the fact of the matter is, you told me, the manufacturers of pet food really don't know what the rendering plants are sending them, do they?
unidentified		No, no, no.
		They ask that companion animals not be included.
		Well, let's put it this way, some would.
		But if they are, who would know?
		The pet food companies don't test as to the sources of protein.
		They have no idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some of it, according to you, isn't even protein.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you're talking about the animals' ID tags, the plastic bags they come in.
unidentified		Everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The body bags and the drugs they were killed with.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is the kind of thing that I'm worried about with regard to our entire society.
		I think we're losing our collective minds.
		And how widespread is this, Anne?
unidentified		Worldwide as far as I can see.
		Worldwide.
		Worse in some countries than in others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you would think, yes, I could think in some backwater third world countries, it might be going on.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's countries where people eat dogs.
unidentified		Exactly, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But not here, not in your country, not even in Mexico.
unidentified		And yet you're telling me this is happening all over the world.
		Yeah.
		And that's what I say.
		It's shocking, really.
		I was physically ill when I realized what was happening.
		I mean, my own dogs and cats, is this what has happened to them over the last 20 years, every time I've had to have one put to sleep?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Anne, that's what I was going to ask next.
		Is there any documentable effect that you can conclude as you look at this practice of this horrible practice?
		Is there any documentable effect that you think you can prove or you can suggest?
unidentified		Well, that's it.
		There is no evidence other than what the pets are actually ingesting when they eat these foods, other than the sodium pentobarbital.
		It's aesthetically disgusting, but as far as serious health effects, no one knows.
		The only industry that would do any studies on this would be the vet colleges or the pet food industry.
		They wouldn't undertake anything.
		If they did, we wouldn't know about it.
		They're the ones that stand to gain the most as far as the vets with our pets being ill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Suppose I take, even though it's very difficult for me, I take the opposite position just to argue it.
		And I say, look, these pets are either unwanted or they're ill and they've been put to sleep and they do represent protein and it somehow or another doesn't hurt other dogs and cats to eat dogs and cats.
		And they don't know what they're doing.
		And it is a protein of a sort.
		And so then what are you raising the fuss about?
		What do you say?
unidentified		I feel people have to know what can and does happen to their pets when they're euthanized and also that these pets are being recycled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I never thought that.
		I honestly to God, I thought that when I, you know, I've like a lot of people, I've had a traumatic time taking a pet in, knowing it's so sick.
		Oh, God, it's awful.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they put it to sleep and they say, we'll take care of it.
unidentified		I know.
		That's the standard phrase.
		I've heard that so often from so many people.
		And people assume, this is the point.
		They assume that the pet is being cremated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I would assume.
unidentified		Right.
		Exactly.
		That's what all people assume.
		That's what I assumed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I wouldn't think they would give it a burial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be expensive.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you would think definitely they would be cremated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you're telling me, in what percentage of the cases are they not cremated?
unidentified		Well, here in London, the fact was that if you took your pet to the vet and you paid extra, say $50 extra, the pet would be cremated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you would even have to know to ask that.
unidentified		Well, this was the point, and the vets were not doing this.
unidentified		The vets here were all assuming the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean even the vets?
unidentified		Even the vets.
unidentified		The vets were shocked when this information came to light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what happens, Anne?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does some obscure little truck pull up behind the veterinary clinics and collect up all the dead animals or the animal shelters or whatever and collect them all up?
unidentified		Dead stock removal company.
		And that is done in a lot.
		And it is, as you say, done virtually in the middle of the night.
		The truck picks them up and hauls them off.
		And there again, people, the vets, assume they're being incinerated.
		But there's money to be made in this, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there is, Anne.
unidentified		And that seems to be a lot of this, is where there's money, it's going to be made.
unidentified		Our pets, a lot of them from here in London, were traveling further when they were dead than when they were alive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never...
		I never cease to be amazed at what the reality is versus what I imagine we can do in evil.
		And hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be back.
		So I warned you, I warned you, if you want to know the truth, keep listening.
		If you can't handle it, you know where the dial is.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
		Coast AM from May
		Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
		20th, 1997.
		Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in Time.
		The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I warn you, the material we're covering right now is not easy intellectually or emotionally to digest.
		Pun intended.
		If you can't handle this kind of information and or if you have children around, I suggest you get them out and either listen yourself or if you're in their category, go elsewhere.
		I'm serious.
		My guest is Ann Martin, and she wrote a book called Food Pets Die For.
		In the literal sense.
		We'll get back to her in a moment.
unidentified		We'll get back to her in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to Anne Martin in London, Ontario.
		Ann, you know, I was thinking during the break, I mean, this is so horrible.
		I was thinking during the break, what about dogs, for example, that have rabies?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Now, I know there have been dead stock removal operations that will pick up dogs minus their heads.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Minus their heads?
unidentified		Yes, because their heads are usually sent to labs for testing to be sure that it is rabies.
unidentified		But the other parts of the dog can be rendered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the actual rendering process?
		In other words, how do you take a whole animal, bag, tag, fur, and all, and render it into something that can be turned into food?
		How do you do that?
		I'm not sure I really want to know, but I've got to ask.
unidentified		No, it is disgusting, but what is done is the animals are taken to a rendering plant, and there are quite a few all over Canada in the U.S. The animals are put in a machine that grinds, I mean grinds everything up.
		From there, they go down into a cauldron, more or less, where it's cooked at, well, I guess it's around 220 Fahrenheit for about 20 minutes.
		The grease and everything.
		Now, this isn't just dogs and cats.
		They're combined with all the other garbage.
		The grease floats to the top.
		And what goes to the bottom is dried and spun.
		And there's your meat meal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What other animals are thrown into this process?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, horses?
unidentified		Horses, the 4D animals, the dead, diseased, dying, and disabled cattle, the ones that die in the field, the condemned and contaminated material from slaughterhouse facilities, roadkill, zoo animals.
unidentified		They're all disposed of in the same way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, a lot of times, of course, when an animal dies on the road, a pet-type animal, the animal shelter locally comes and picks it up.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's the last we ever think about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the fact is, that animal, along with the ones that they euthanize, all go into the same pile.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		Yes.
		Animals, say a deer or anything, any type of animal that is too large to be buried at the side of the road, they are sent to rendering too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've got a fax here from Sharon in Southern Oregon that I want to read to you and just get your reaction.
		It says, Art, my friend in England said that there, dead dogs and cats taken to be cremated instead are shipped to rendering plants to produce oils for lipstick and other cosmetics.
		The fat from dogs is most desirable.
		This man is a third generation terrier man and very knowledgeable about what goes on.
		Could that be true?
unidentified		It could be in England.
		I don't think you would find that.
		In the U.S. and Canada, there are different rendering facilities.
		There's a rendering facility that will render for human consumption.
		Now, that would be material left from slaughterhouse facilities like fats and so on that have been inspected as fit for human use.
		That would be what would be rendered.
		In this area, there are, I believe, two rendering facilities for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I know this is really horrible to consider, but we have had many stories in our country, this country, of elderly Americans who are so poor that they Have taken to eating pet food, canned pet food.
unidentified		I think that's been around for some time now.
		I think if you look at the price of pet food and you look at the price of, say, a can of tuna, the tuna would likely be cheaper.
		I really don't think you're going to find people eating dog and cat food.
		I talked to our Minister of Agriculture about that, and he said in doing a survey and doing work with people, he hadn't found any.
		Their department hadn't found any that were actually eating pet food.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no offense, but that's in socialist Canada.
		Oh, okay.
		Here, in fact, it does occur from time to time, I'm so sorry to say.
		It's one of the byproducts, the nastier ones, of a real capitalist system, you know.
		Some fall through the cracks, and when they hit bottom, they've been known to eat pet food, believe me, and believe me, it's true.
unidentified		Just the thought of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long and hard did you think before you sat down and wrote a book about this?
unidentified		I really had no plans on writing a book, but in doing seminars and so on, people were so shocked by what was happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Count me in, yeah.
unidentified		That it seemed, other than the articles I've written for publications in the U.S. and that, it seemed the only way to make people aware not only of the companion animals in the pet food, but everything else they're feeding their pets that is in the commercial products.
		And the fact that despite what vets say and despite what the industry says, we can feed our pets human food and they survive a lot longer.
		They're a lot healthier.
		I often point out that if these people, if they're not old enough, ask their mother, ask their grandmother when they were children.
		They had pets.
		Those pets were, and I can remember my own mother after dinner, put any leftovers in the dog's bowl.
		That's what they ate.
		You can't remember taking a pet to a vet because it was, it had cancer, it had allergies.
		Those pets died of old age or were killed by a car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am a particular cat lover, as I said at the beginning of the program.
unidentified		You have four.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have four, I have three.
		And earlier in my life, and I had some cats that died a truly horrible, horrible death.
		It was so heartbreaking, this damn feline leukemia business, which causes them to waste away as AIDS would a person.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They get thinner and thinner and finally die.
		And when I detected that in my cat, I took it to the vet, and the vet, of course, put it to sleep.
		And I suppose you're going to tell me that that cat with feline leukemia was rendered?
unidentified		It could very well be.
		It depends.
		Do you know if your vet was having them incinerated?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do not.
		And I do not.
		It's like when you go to the vet, you're in tears.
unidentified		Right.
		You trust the vet.
		And I mean, as I say, I'm not saying anything against the vets because knowing what I know from the vets here in London, they didn't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, how many, have you gone to vets and have you said, look, here's what I know, here's what I can prove.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know what was going on?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		I have done that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And?
unidentified		And just by the vets here in London, they didn't know what was going on.
		When they found out, they immediately canceled their contracts with this company.
		All the vets in London and the surrounding area are now using the Humane Society where they are incinerated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, you're going to step on some really big money toes here.
unidentified		I know, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's occurred to you?
unidentified		Oh, it has.
unidentified		It has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any idea how much money is involved in this horrid little process?
unidentified		Billions of dollars.
unidentified		Billions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I'm going to step on some toes.
		But that's nothing new.
		Billions of dollars.
		You know, this is about one of the most horrid things that I think I've ever heard in my whole life.
		And I still, and I still have a hard time believing it.
unidentified		I know.
unidentified		I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how did you prove it?
unidentified		Just by the government in Quebec and the letters of correspondence that this was actually going on.
		But I mean, have you ever gone and watched?
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Followed, maybe watched a pickup and followed, see where it goes and how the animals are disposed of?
unidentified		No, no.
		I was invited by one inspector for the government to go with him to one of the rendering plants.
		And I asked, and I don't think I could have gone, but I asked to go to a particular rendering plant where I knew cats and dogs were being rendered, and he said no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did he say?
unidentified		He said no, that that wasn't permitted.
		He would take me to a rendering plant where they were rendering for human use, but not one of these rendering plants.
		Well, that's the thing.
		I mean, it's so undercover that it's unbelievable.
		Everything is done in the dead of night.
		These places are surrounded by huge fences.
		The trucks that are dumping off this stuff are more or less inside to dump off stuff.
		Nobody sees what's happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Have you involved any friends or professional people in this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, are you out there by yourself?
unidentified		There are a lot of people.
		I have an awful lot of support from people that do know what is happening.
		And it is scary in that, well, the industry more or less knows where I am.
		And a couple of years ago, I did get some unsigned letters more or less saying, stop now.
		Really?
		As I said, people have a right to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has anything actually happened yet?
		No.
		Well, you're getting a lot more exposure right now than I presume you've had previously.
		Who else has had the guts to run stories about this?
unidentified		Anybody?
		Not that I know of.
		No.
		I think the Baltimore newspaper did an article.
		I don't know if you've seen that or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have not.
unidentified		Oh, well, that's very interesting.
		The gentleman that did the article did get into a rendering plant under the guise that he was going in there so people would know enough to have their pets spade or neutered because this is what was happening to them.
		And there were actual photos of the barrels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I always thought that the reason not, I mean, the reason to spade and neuter was so that animals wouldn't have to be put asleep, not so they could be turned into pet food.
unidentified		No, no, his whole point was have your pets spade or neutered, or this is how they're going to end up.
unidentified		And, I mean, the pictures are quite vivid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And do you know how long this has been going on?
unidentified		As long as the pet food industry has existed, I imagine.
unidentified		It's a source of cheap.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To me, it seems apocalyptic, and I wonder how the people who are in management decision-making positions who do know what's going on can live with themselves.
unidentified		It's money, and money seems to be the whole point.
		It's dogs and cats, roadkill, what have you, are a cheap source of protein.
		And if it's cheap and can be used, they'll use it.
		And you get the thing that it's a means of disposal.
		They can't bury the animals in landfill.
		Incineration is costly.
		So this way they're making money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Again, in England, we've got this horrid thing, cows being fed cows.
		We end up with mad cow disease.
		We end up with brain problems in humans.
		Is it not possible?
		I mean, what is the difference between that and what they're doing here?
		In other words, if dogs are eating dogs and cats, cats are eating cats, isn't it possible that exactly the same thing, maybe with some horrible little twist or modification, could come out of this process?
		I mean, they did it a lot of years in Great Britain before mad cow disease began.
unidentified		Oh, yes, yes, definitely.
		There's no doubt.
		I've questioned the U.S. government and a number of veterinarians in the U.S. as far as could dogs and cats develop this disease, not only from eating dogs and cats, but from eating livestock in the U.S., because the material that's going into the dog and cat food is, well, the worst of the worst.
		And cats in England, there are over 100 now that have died from this disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait, wait, wait, wait.
		You didn't tell me that before.
		In England, there are over 100 cats that have died of what disease?
unidentified		Mad cow disease.
unidentified		The feline disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cats have died of mad cow disease?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		Oh, yes.
		In England.
		And I think there have been cases in, I believe it's not Denmark.
		There are other countries that cats have developed this disease.
		None reported in the U.S. or Canada that we know of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you a little story, Anne, because I think it relates.
		Linda Moulton Howe on this program reported last week on a strange, stupid little microorganism that's half plant and half animal, if you can imagine that, that lurks in a hibernated, I guess it'd be the best way to put it, state, either at the bottom of fresh or salt water.
		When enough pollutants and runoff from pig farming and all the other things going on on the Carolina coast finally reach these little dormant organisms, they suddenly spring to life like little time bombs.
		And what they do is they begin killing fish by the millions.
		And then there's one other awful thing about it.
		It seems to have a great taste for human blood.
		And I don't know why what you're telling me in mad cow disease reminds me of that.
		I guess in the broader sense, Anne, I'm beginning to conclude that there's something ready to bite us in the butt for every wrong, horrible thing we do.
		And this sounds like another one of those.
unidentified		Agreed.
		Agreed.
		As far as the dogs with this disease, I'm concerned.
		There has been a case reported in Norway, but they haven't finished the autopsy on this dog, but it looks as if it may have died of mad cow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this is recent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it actual mad cow or is it a variation of mad cow?
unidentified		It's the feline and canine form affecting the animals in the same way as it does the cows.
unidentified		I have asked doctors in the U.S. if, in fact, because the symptoms are so similar, if dogs in the U.S. and Canada could be dying of this disease and it has gone more or less undetected, undiagnosed, or diagnosed as a neurological disease in dogs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, generally, when you take an animal into a vet, they don't go through the expense and trouble of doing detailed autopsies.
		No, no, no.
		So in other words, they could be dying of this now, and we wouldn't know it.
unidentified		Nope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because we'd be idiotically recycling or rendering them right back into, oh, my God, this is awful.
unidentified		Yes.
		It just, that's what I said.
		There's no end to it.
		It just goes on and on.
		And to write this book, there had to be a cutoff point somewhere.
		And yet, daily, I'm getting more and more information.
		It just goes on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ann, you better get more information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You better get protection.
unidentified		No, I don't know.
unidentified		I've never been that concerned about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, people that have tampered with billion-dollar businesses, Anne, I hope you'll be safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, I would like you to stick around because I want the audience to be able to respond to you, all right?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you stick around?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Stay right there then.
		My guest is Ann Martin, and she has authored a book that is not yet out, about to be out, called Food, Pets, Die For.
		And when we come back after the top of the hour, we will briefly recap and then go to the telephones.
unidentified		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from May
		Coast to Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		20, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		The night's program originally aired May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get your kids out of the room.
		We're into a topic here that is going to disgust you.
		It's going to make you emotional.
		It may make you cry.
		Or maybe it won't.
		I don't know, but it's a rough way to go.
		My guest is Ann Martin.
		Her book, not yet published, is Food Pets Die For.
		It will be available in September.
		If you could stand to read it.
		In a moment, we'll tell you what it's all about, and we will take some calls.
		So stand by for that, and we'll kind of recap what it's all about as Los Angeles and San Francisco join at this hour.
unidentified		The End.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Ann Martin.
		The subject is one of the roughest ones you're ever going to hear.
		I know a lot of you probably won't believe this.
		Anne has authored a book called Food Pets Die For, and she means that quite literally.
		And Los Angeles and San Francisco have joined at this hour.
		And Anne is in London, Ontario, in Canada.
		And the fact of the matter is, here in America and there, in Canada, and across most of the rest of the world, the animals that we have as pets, dogs, cats, whether they're taken to a vet and euthanized or out of some animal shelters,
		not all, roadkill, all of these things are taken to something called rendering plants where they are dumped with their fur complete and their bodies complete along with the metal tags or whatever else into this horrible godforsaken mixture of whatever goo it is that's turned into pet food.
		Is that roughly correct, Anne?
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		But also, as I said, livestock feed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Livestock feed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, this is being turned into livestock feed as well.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, we've been touching on mad cow disease and a lot of other things.
		Hey, I've got an article here, Anne.
		It says this came from the Mad Cow Disease website.
		Recycled pets and potential for TSE amplification.
		Assuming that a tiny fraction of cats with BSE, FSE, ever get diagnosed as such, which is quite an assumption, no diagnosis at all is most likely.
		There would indeed be a potential for recycling the disease should these infected cats be non-discriminately rendered for pet food.
		And then from the summer 96 Earth Island Journal, the rendering plant flora is piled high with raw product.
		Thousands of dead dogs, cats, head, hooves from cattle, sheep, pigs, horses, whole skunks, rats, raccoons, all waiting to be processed in the 90-degree heat.
		The piles of dead animals seem to have a life of their own as millions of maggots swarm over the carcasses.
		And you're telling me, without naming products, we obviously can't do that.
unidentified		No, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That probably, well, I don't want to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to ask you, would you say that the majority of pet food producers are using this product?
unidentified		Well, let's put it this way.
unidentified		There isn't one pet food that I have come across that I would feed my dog or cat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not one.
unidentified		And now, granted, I don't know about all the pet foods available, but the ones I do know about, I wouldn't feed them.
unidentified		At least the way I'm feeding my pets, I know what I'm feeding them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ann, I hope that the people at the Los Angeles Times, the San Jose Mercury, all the big newspapers across America are listening this morning.
		I hope they've got enough guts to report on this.
		If they do, is there a way for them to contact you, Anne?
unidentified		Yes, I have an email number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do people email you?
unidentified		Okay, the number is J, as in James Martin at gtn.net.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		GTN.net.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me repeat that.
		It's JMartin.
		No space, right?
		No, all small lowercase, JMartin at GTN, as in Nora.net.
		Is that correct?
		All right, I would like to begin to take some calls.
		My fax machine is going absolutely berserk, but let's take some calls first.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
unidentified		Hi, this is Rule from Sacramento, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I have 15 years' experience in the meat and rendering industry.
unidentified		And while basically what she's saying is correct, it's a little bit sensationalized.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in other words, they don't take cats and dogs, fur and all, tags, and toss them in?
unidentified		Right.
		They pull all metal off of the objects, and off of the animals.
		If there's tags or anything like that, that's all removed.
		And then they skin all the animals first.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it possible, sir, that the rendering plant practices differ?
unidentified		Well, no.
		What they're really doing is that they differ in depending on where the product is going.
		If it is for human consumption, then all of the product, and I might say I've also had four years' experience as a USDA meat inspector.
		Okay.
		The product that is going into human consumption is all rendered inside of the slaughterhouse itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but that's not what we're talking about.
unidentified		I realize that, but you've got to understand the rendering process.
		I'll be as quick as I possibly can.
		Any animals or any of the awful, that means the intestines and lungs and stuff like that, are thrown into a tank that goes to the renderer.
		Any animals that are condemned on the kill floor for any number of diseases that make it not fit for human consumption are also sent to the renderer.
		Those are classified in different classifications than roadkill, than dogs and cats.
		In the process, it is not heated for 20 minutes.
		It's usually from 4 to 8 hours.
		The temperatures, it's a boiler that's there and it's like in a pressure cooker.
		So the temperatures are probably 400 and 500 degrees to kill bacteria.
		The products are, to be real truthful, they are very concerned about keeping a good product.
		The reason they're behind fences and that is because of environmental concerns and laws that have been passed.
		They don't come at night to do it, or if they do, it's just simply because that's when the pickup times are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir, but stop for a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As I discussed with Ann earlier, when I took my cat in to be euthanized, crying and I was just emotionally distraught, and the cat was euthanized, the vet told me he would take care of the body.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I presume that meant incineration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and it doesn't, is it true or is it not true, sir, that that is not always or even nearly always so?
unidentified		No, no, it's not true at all.
unidentified		I mean it's very expensive to incinerate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but not.
unidentified		But if they don't have an incinerator on that premise, you can almost guarantee they're going to be rendered.
		I mean, it's just simply, you know, and it's not that they're doing it clandestine.
		If you've ever been by a renderer, it stinks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it bother you, sir, that we are feeding dogs and cats to dogs and cats?
unidentified		No.
		What do dogs and cats eat in the wild?
		What do dogs and cats eat right around your house?
		Have you ever seen the rats and voles and everything else they drag in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, they eat that stuff.
		But we've got this little problem, this mad cow disease thing where cows being fed to cows or cow product being fed to cows has caused a disease that has now jumped to humans.
		Shouldn't we be concerned?
unidentified		Well, yes, and we need to address those concerns if in fact that is the case of what's going on.
unidentified		But if you render meat at 400 degrees for four to eight hours, depending on the size of the load, there aren't very many bacterias that are viruses that can survive that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not very many.
unidentified		The disease is not a bacteria or a virus, according to the information.
		It's a prion, which will withstand extremely high temperatures.
		Well, if that's the case, then they will do something to solve that problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, sir, if vets, for example, are not really doing autopsies and not determining causes of death, which generally they certainly are not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just, you know, have the dead body taken away to this Godforsaken process, how the hell do we know what's being rendered?
unidentified		Well, we don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate your expertise and I appreciate your call, but it would appear that Ann is largely correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Ms. Martin, I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		I do not have a radio on.
		Okay, go ahead.
		I agree with everything Miss Martin says.
		I kind of disagree.
		Did previous callers say that the animals that were during the rentaling process had no animal hairs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what he said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said they were skinned.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is not true?
unidentified		That is not true.
unidentified		No, that is not the dogs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not the dogs and cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know that caller?
unidentified		That is correct.
		I used to be a driver for Animal Control, or actually Animal Shelter, where I used to pick up dead animals.
		And also used to have to put animals that had been PTS, which is put to sleep, into barrels for a run-game company.
		Right.
		Great.
		Great.
		It's perfect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and when you give people information like you're giving it to us this morning, what kind of reaction do you usually get?
unidentified		Absolutely shocked.
		A lot of people cry.
		A lot of people think of the pets they've had that have gone.
		Is this what has happened to them?
		Well, that's what I say.
		It's horrifying.
		I was sick when I found out what was going on.
		And I couldn't understand.
		Well, I guess nobody's bothered, though.
		Why hasn't someone looked into this before?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm going to intersperse this now with facts is.
		Hey, Art, I, too, am an animal lover here in Vancouver, Canada.
		Listening to your program tonight reminds me of a horrific incident that I witnessed a few days ago.
		While on a bus downtown, I saw a meatpacker truck pulled up beside a barbecue meat store.
		The back of the truck was open with a man removing an animal carcass from brown packing paper.
		To my shock and horror, when he turned toward the bus, I saw that it was the carcass of a dog.
		I suspect a golden lab or similar breed.
		The head had been neatly severed.
		Only a bloody stump remained.
		It was the kind of scenario I would read about and think no way.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard stories like that?
unidentified		Oh, definitely.
		Definitely.
		In fact, a week and a half ago, I guess it was just outside of London, a dead stock removal company went to pick up a sheep or a pig or whatever, and there were dead dogs in the back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's another one.
		Thanks again for another courageous exposure.
		Oh, my God.
		I needed to hear this.
		We have five dogs and five cats.
		Thank heaven we live in the country.
		You know what, Art?
		My Christian neighbor told me the other day that it says somewhere in the Bible that in the last days, companion animals and livestock would all go crazy and attack their owners.
		Maybe we are hearing here why.
unidentified		I don't doubt it, especially as you say with the mad cow situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
unidentified		Good evening.
		Hello.
		Are you aware of Dr. Pitt Karn's Guide to Natural Health for Cats and Dogs?
		It was put out by Rodale Press.
		Yes.
		You are aware of that one, Debbie.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, ma'am?
unidentified		I'm in the Willamette Valley in Oregon.
		It was published in 1982, and the chapter that says number two is what's really in pet food, and a lot of what you're saying is in that chapter.
		And there also is a quote from a federal meat inspector.
		So that is a resource you have then.
		Yes.
		All right.
		Absolutely.
		This is a terrible situation, isn't it?
		It is, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what's really terrible about it?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never heard about it before.
unidentified		Yeah.
		It's sickening.
		We have raised animals and raised children.
		I've had animals for years and years and years, never had ill animals.
		And then a situation was such that instead of being able to cook food for them, being disabled, I had to start buying dog food.
		And from that point on, we have had animals, cats and dogs, with cancer, with all kinds of terrible things.
		And I am sure that it came from that because we have never had a problem like that in the bad place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Yeah, thank you.
		We have no way of knowing the magnitude of problems it generates because we don't do autopsies.
		We don't look into why most of these animals die.
		All right, here's one from the other side, Ann.
		See if you can answer it.
		Art, I'm surprised you didn't know about rendering.
		I'm an old farm boy, and I'm well aware of the process.
		It's grotesque, ugly, but it's absolutely necessary.
		Where do you think the billions of pets and other animals we use cow disposables go when they die?
		Something has to be done with the waste, in quotes.
		I share the sentiment and discuss, but Art, the alternative is unspeakable.
		Best regards, Gary and Peoria, Arizona.
		What is the alternative?
unidentified		The only alternative is incineration.
		What I have suggested is the pet food companies have told us that we don't use companion animals in the food.
		These foods are wonderful.
		What they should do is take some of their money that they use for advertising dollars and invest it in some incinerators so we can have these animals disposed of in a proper means.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Rostrum, New York?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		Yeah, I listened to your show, and that's when the.
unidentified		I worked at a rendering plant for 17 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, and I can tell you the whole process, what goes on there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'm afraid to ask.
		Is it what Ann says it is?
		Well, it's kind of like that, but kind of like that.
		Were you processing for human consumption or animal?
unidentified		It's animal consumption, but some of the stuff goes in for, like, you were mentioning cosmetic products.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		If it's a real good product, you can bleach it out, and it can be used for, like, lipsticks and soap products like that.
		That's the fat.
		Yes.
		And it's a high-grade tallow, it's called.
		Right.
		But there again, that's a section of the industry that is not near where the animal feed and so on is processed.
		Well, the other gentleman was talking about the part of the industry that's right where the slaughterhouse is, that's for human consumption.
		Right.
		That's made for edible tallow.
		Right.
		But a lot of that is used in cosmetics, too.
		Yeah.
		But we also sent to cosmetic factories the...
		Yes.
		Did your rendering plant render the animals with their fur?
		See, the cattle that came in, the fur was removed off them.
		Right.
		But the small animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not the dogs, not the cats?
unidentified		The cats and dogs and that kind of thing, they'd go through with their fur.
		Right.
		But see, that wasn't our choice, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, nobody's blaming you, sir.
unidentified		No, that wasn't the renderers.
unidentified		We were just trying to discourage that process because the pet food companies got wind of it after a while, and they wouldn't accept our product, so we had to discontinue taking the dogs and the cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate the call.
		And Anne, hold on for a moment.
		We'll do another half hour of calls.
		Did any of you know this was going on?
		Apparently, those like this gentleman who have work in such plants know.
		I sure didn't.
		I won't sleep as well.
		I wonder what we can do about it.
		And again, I ask, if anybody out there in the press with the proper body parts would contact Ann Martin.
		It sounds to me like you'd have quite a story.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		I told you, man, keep doing it.
		Don't say that you don't need it.
		Don't say that you don't need it.
		I've been treated some green with you.
		I've seen it blue for me.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful blue and cloud day.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful world.
		Is it a wonderful world?
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell.
		My guest is Ann Martin, and she's in Canada, actually.
		And she's talking to you about something that is not going on just in Canada.
		It's going on here.
		It's actually going on worldwide.
		We're feeding our pets to our pets.
		Think about it for a minute.
		It's cannibalism.
unidentified		I must live wrong.
unidentified		There might much more than I'll ever know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll betcha, I'll betcha, babe, even babies know that it's wrong.
unidentified		I'll betcha, babe, even babies know that it's wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Back to this.
		Now, I've got an article in front of me from the Earth Island Journal by Dr. Wendell Belfield, I believe it is, B-E-L-F-I-E-L-D.
		And he begins the article, it's a long article, but he begins it by saying, the most frequently asked question in my practice is, which commercial pet food do you recommend?
		My standard answer is none.
		When the label reads, meat and bone meal, that includes dogs and cats.
		So there's something to back you up.
		And it's just, it's unbelievable.
		And I've got one other I want to read, and then we'll go back to the phones.
		Dear Art, after the first time this pet food situation was mentioned on your show, I called the animal shelter to ask what happened to the animals they euthanized.
		I was told that a truck came and picked them up.
		So, I called another animal shelter and was told a rendering truck came to pick them up.
		This is Southern California.
		I told him what rendering meant.
		There was a long silence.
		Then he said, he didn't know that.
		I think now I feed my dog regular food.
		But you know what?
		I don't know what to feed the cats.
		Maybe this is why my dog doesn't want dog food.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you feed cats?
unidentified		My cats, and they've eaten it for seven years now.
		Two-thirds of their diet is meat, chicken, beef.
		I don't give them pork, any kind of meat, really.
		And the other third of their diet is whole grain, either whole grain cereal, brown rice, and mixed with raw vegetables, grated carrots, zucchini.
		They love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got you.
		All right, Anne.
		Back to the phones.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She's in London, Ontario, Canada.
unidentified		Where are you?
		This is Robert.
		I'm in the San Joaquin Valley, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Ann, can you hear me, Anne?
		Yes.
		First of all, God bless you for coming forward for us people like Mr. Bell who never knew.
		And this hurts more than I can express.
		I have three things I'd like to tell you, and then make a recommendation, if I may, Mr. Bell.
		Go ahead.
		First of all, in this country of ours, the FDA, which inspects for human consumption, has made the statement that there are certain percentages of rodent, rodent hares, things that are allowed in foods.
		This is a fact.
		Also, minions of pet owners, many that love their pets, dogs, cats, like many love their children.
		You remember the movie, Mr. Bell, Soylent Green?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was waiting for somebody to bring that one up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
unidentified		How far are we from that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		But what I'd like to make a recommendation of, because I'm looking at a magazine about cats and animals, and looking through the various ads and the things that they say with chicken and turkey and so forth, along with vegetables, we think that that's all that's in the food.
		This has been a deception.
		This has been, we've been lied to.
		What do the laws have to say?
		What can we do besides boycotts to make sure that we stop this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and how do we even know where to point the boycott?
		Now, I'm intentionally not mentioning company names because I don't know who's doing what.
		And how can you know, Anne?
		Or is the answer simply you can't know?
unidentified		You can't.
		You can't.
		There is no way.
		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		And that's what I say.
		I can't bring myself to feed my pets any commercial product.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello.
		Hi, this is Melissa.
		I'm calling from Minnesota, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Melissa, get good and close to your phone.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		And I wanted to ask Anne what she was to suggest you feed her animals that I heard about the cats, but we also have a dog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, she has a dog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you suggest that she would feed her dog?
unidentified		My dog gets one-third meat, one-third whole grains of any kind, one-third vegetables or fruits, whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, stuff fit for human consumption.
unidentified		Oh, definitely.
unidentified		I mean, what I feed my dogs and cats, I could eat myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Ann Martin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		High.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Ann.
		Thank you for taking my call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		My name is Kathy.
		I'm calling from Duluth, Minnesota.
		Okay.
		I work at a veterinary clinic, and I just started there a little while ago, so this, of course, is a huge concern to me.
		We do go through an area cremation service, and I guess I've never even given it a second thought.
		What kind of questions can I ask?
		How can I find out if this is happening to our animals?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you may have already answered your question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said you go through a cremation service.
unidentified		Yes, we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you certain that's what's occurring?
unidentified		How do I find that out?
		Can I go directly to the cremation service?
		You should be able to.
		Yes.
		I should.
		Okay.
		If that's what they're doing, you should have no problem at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you could even, if you have the fortitude for it, just follow the truck.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See where it goes.
unidentified		Well, they should, if it is a cremation service, they should have no problem telling you exactly where they're located.
		And if they don't tell me, that's very suspicious.
		And my other question was, you know, what about the agents that go into these animals, like the euthanasia agents, the controlled substances and heavy metals?
		Exactly.
		And the antibiotics that are used on these animals.
		And most animals at vet clinics are treated with some type of antibiotic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anne said earlier that they are given, they are euthanized with something generally called what Ann?
unidentified		Sodium pentobarbital.
unidentified		Sleep away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that just goes right into the rendering process.
unidentified		Okay, it all goes into the whole thing.
		That's very interesting.
		Can I rule out with pet food brands, even the ones that claim to be nature-oriented, the all-natural products?
		As I say, I take them off.
		I wouldn't do it.
		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because in a lot of cases, to be fair to them, according to Ann, the pet food producers don't know.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		And the veterinarians.
		I have often, well, I have questioned a number of labs to see if I could have these foods tested as to the sources of protein used in them.
		But up until six months ago, and I haven't contacted them since, there are no testing methods to ascertain the source of protein other than DNA.
		And to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very expensive.
unidentified		Very expensive.
		It's expensive.
		And apparently, as of that time, they didn't have markers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe, you know, maybe now we can do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe we can push a little bit and get somebody to do that violence.
unidentified		Maybe the pet food company should.
		Yeah.
		How about, now, most bigger cities do have local zoos and whatnot, and the zoos are getting animals, you know, a lot of the meat isn't cooked.
		The big cats, for instance, eat raw meat.
		If they're supposedly trying to preserve wildlife, or whatever you want to call it in some cases, should they be aware of all this going on too?
		We had an incident up here where there was a problem with a barbituid that it was either coming from the meat or it was purposely injected into the animal.
		Right.
		Right.
		That does happen quite often.
		And I think Dr. Belfield in California knew of an incident like that, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was the man I just referenced a moment ago.
		All right.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Ann Martin.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I'm in Jamestown, New York.
unidentified		This is Gail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		I was wondering if she knows of any human food products that are using these rendered animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, I hope not.
unidentified		Other than livestock feed and cattle feed.
unidentified		And if the proposed regulations pass in the U.S., they won't be feeding cows to cows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, ma'am, you're at the top of the food chain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So obviously, if animals are being fed to animals, like animals to like animals and that sort of thing, and you're at the top of the food chain, then somewhere along the line, it's eventually going to get to you.
unidentified		I was thinking like hot dogs and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, mostly you don't want to know what are in hot dogs.
		i i don't think that that even approaches what we're talking about here awful as it might be i i i remember uh...
		you can What about even with hot dogs, I think, awful as they may be, they list or they're forced to list in many cases the ingredients that are used.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what about legislation or a law that would require pet food producers to list the specific ingredients in the food?
unidentified		I don't think we have pet food companies in business if that was the case.
		If consumers read on the labels exactly what was in it.
		No, I don't think we'll ever see that happen.
		And don't forget, that would be fighting a billion-dollar industry.
		And I know from experience with different government agencies, it won't happen.
		It won't happen.
		It never will happen.
		They have an organization, U.S., it's called, it's a trade organization, the Association of American Feed Control Officials, and they have state government representatives.
		Last year, I wrote every state in the U.S., these representatives.
		I asked if they prohibited the use of rendered companion animals in pet food.
		I received replies back, I think, from 27 states in the U.S. Not one state prohibits the use of rendered companion animals in pet food.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Greetings, Art Belle, from Charlotte in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Charlotte.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		After hearing this, I unfortunately had to turn it off for a few.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't blame you.
unidentified		As you know, Art, I had contacted you before.
unidentified		I am the same person that has a guide dog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah?
unidentified		Yeah.
		And I hadn't called you in quite a while because I didn't want to take up your time.
		Ma'am, I am curious as to know whether or not you have checked with any schools that are very well known who train dogs.
		And after they have to retire them, whether or not you found out where they might be going.
		Because this really makes me sick.
		I imagine it would be the same place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Ma'am, pause for a moment.
		The answer is, she said she imagines the same place.
unidentified		Oh, my God.
unidentified		They wouldn't differentiate between guide dogs or any other type of dog or cat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the answer is a dead animal carcass.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Ann Martin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to have to speak up good and loud for us.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		My name is Sherry.
unidentified		I'm in Monterey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Sherry.
unidentified		Art, I've been listening to you constantly.
		I don't get any sleep anymore for the last month.
		And I've been wanting to get you for a long time.
		Miss Martin?
		Yes.
		I have two cats.
		Art, I'm going to send you photographs of my cats.
		I think you're going to love them.
		I have friends who live out where you are.
		Because of my one mil cat pressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do the wild thing at 702-727-1295.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't want you to.
unidentified		That's all there is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ma'am, ma'am, ma'am, I do not want you to mention any.
unidentified		Well, it's the only brand I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't want you to mention the brand name.
unidentified		Okay, well, I was using a store brand, but they discontinued it.
		Okay.
		Because he has urinary history.
		But I've almost lost him twice.
		Well, because I have to buy that brand, which is the more expensive, I'm PO'd.
		But what do I do?
		Because I have two cats and it works for both because she doesn't need it, but he does.
		It has to have the ash level, magnesium.
		I would love to switch to things like tuna and meats and whatever, but then how do I provide the minerals so that his urinary trash is protected?
		I mean, what do I do?
		Okay, now, if you want to feed a homemade diet, if I were you, I would be inclined to get even Dr. Pitt Karen's book, who will, that book will give you exactly what you should be feeding the cat.
		I have a cat that had the same problem, and as I say, he's been on a homemade diet for seven years, and he's never had a reoccurrence of the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way for us to know what percentage of illness that our pets have, or even temperament, or all the rest of it, is due to this horrid, horrid thing we've been talking about?
unidentified		No.
		As I say, with virtually no research done in the area, no.
		Any research that would be done in the area would be done by vet colleges.
		You've got to remember that the vet colleges are funded to quite an extent by the pet food industry.
		They're not going to research something that is going to affect the industry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Next question.
		Ann, when you go to the store, there's a wide variety of prices for pet food.
		Can you make any sort of assumption that if you pay top dollar and get the greatest hoxy-topsy, latest formula for animals, that you're not getting rendered food?
unidentified		No.
		No.
		mean what is in that if you check the labels the labels of the cheap ones and the labels of the expensive ones there's very little difference in the ingredients used read labels when uh when and is your book uh going well you said september uh where is it going to be available it'll be available all over the u.s and canada it's being published by uh new sage press in portland oregon well i wish there was a number
art bell ▲ ● ▼		was something we could give out now so people could get your books but that's not going to happen until September right that's right I can give you the number of new sage all right that's a lead sure go ahead okay darn that's right if you're able to dig it up otherwise you know what I'll do and I'll have you on again in September when your book actually comes out okay
unidentified		I
unidentified		when you went to them with this book what did they say well let's put it this way a very good friend of mine uh who has a number of books published uh was very enthusiastic about this book and they are his publishers dr. Michael Fox is vice president of the humane society of the U.S. And he has written a forward to the book and they were they were very pleased they weren't afraid of it no well
art bell ▲ ● ▼		a lot of the press is going to be afraid of this ann yes I know scared to death of it and again your email address in case anybody in the press would like to follow up is jmartin this is all lowercase just jmartin at gtn.net right you're going to get a lot of email and oh that's fine do you have time to go through a lot of email oh yeah all right by all means and uh search out uh the responses
		from newspapers and broadcast facilities, and I think that our best chance is being as public as possible.
		I've never, frankly, heard this discussed on the airwaves before, ever.
unidentified		No, no.
unidentified		No, very seldom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seldom, in my case, never, and I've heard a lot of broadcasts, believe me, for a lot of years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think you've done a very brave thing.
unidentified		Well, it had to be told.
unidentified		I mean, for the pets, if nothing else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I absolutely agree with you, Anne.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to thank you for being on the program, and I want to rebook you, so I'm going to hold on to this, because I want to bring you back in September when your book comes out.
unidentified		Wonderful.
		All right?
		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Anne, and good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks for staying up so late.
unidentified		That's all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Anne Martin in London, not England, Ontario, where it's got to be coming up on 4 o'clock in the morning.
unidentified		Her book...
		food pets die for and my guess would be uh you're thinking real hard about what you've just heard again her email address is jmartin at gtn.net i'm art bell and straight ahead open minds you're listening to art bell somewhere in time on premiere radio networks tonight an encore presentation of coast to coast a m from may 20th 1997.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you're listening to art bells somewhere in time tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast a.m from may 20th 1997 top of the morning to you and i uh in a way i apologize for the last two hours uh not really i mean i i in the sense that i know that it was hard to take for a lot of you but sometimes there is a story that nobody else you know has told that needs to be told sit back think about it think about whether you feel
		it's right or wrong and what should be done and i'll leave it at that i'm going to briefly cover uh some of the news uh that is worth covering and tell you what's coming up for the rest of the week.
		I think I've got a pretty interesting lineup for you.
		We're about to enter open lines, unscreened, anything goes, talk radio.
		So we'll do all of that and more.
unidentified		We'll do all of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to remind my audience that beginning in less than one month, this program will begin one hour earlier.
		One hour earlier.
		Beginning in a month, actually less than a month now.
		That will also apply to Dreamland beginning at 6 p.m. Pacific time instead of 7.
		But Coast will begin at 10 West Coast time or 1 o'clock in the morning in the east.
		Make adjustments for other time zones as you will.
		The president has vowed to veto the abortion bill.
		We're talking about the controversial so-called partial birth abortion bill.
		And I agree with the president.
		I absolutely agree with the president, and I'm going to tell you why.
		And I know it's going to be disagreeable for a lot of anti-abortion people out there.
		It's not that I want partial birth abortion, which is just a horrible procedure, in which the baby's head, the baby is virtually in the process of being born and is virtually murdered in that process.
		It's really absolutely a horrible procedure involving its brain.
		It's horrible.
		I know that.
		However, the president in this case, in my opinion, is right.
		Not right in trying to make this more common.
		And I don't necessarily believe that he's trying to do that.
		But before I comment on a situation, I try to bring it home.
		And when I bring a situation like this home, I think the following.
		If my wife was pregnant, if my wife was about to deliver, and a doctor came to me and said, Mr. Bell, Ramona is experiencing last-minute complications.
		There's nothing that can be done.
		The baby is down the birth canal and some sort of internal hemorrhage or, you know, God knows what can go wrong.
		Rare, I believe, one in a thousand, maybe.
		But I guarantee you, if that doctor came to me and said, to continue with this birth will kill your wife, or in all probability will kill your wife.
		I'm sorry, there's no choice there.
		There's absolutely no choice.
		And I would tell that doctor to do what he has to do to save my wife's life.
		Now I know that that doesn't go down easily in a lot of quarters.
		That's just too damn bad.
		That's the choice I would make.
		And I don't see why this legislation cannot be narrowed so that only in cases where a mother's life is truly in danger in the birth process is such a thing ever done, ever done.
		Nobody wants this to be common or even semi-common.
		Nobody in their right mind.
		But if it means the life of my wife, God help anybody who gets in the way of my making the decision to save my wife's life.
		So until they get it right, I agree with the president.
		The other big story is the Air Force delay of the court-martial of 1st Lieutenant Kelly Flynn.
		And this story has changed radically as the day has gone on.
		I don't know if you've been listening carefully, but CNN has been carrying a very different kind of story with Lieutenant Flynn's lover, past, I now presume, saying, look, she lied.
		And in fact, she was at, in fact, even the ex-wife said she was at my house having dinner with me and my children.
		She didn't care about my feelings.
		The ex-lover said Flynn lied.
		Now, that's a very different story than we had a day ago.
		Day ago it was, I'm Lieutenant Flynn, I'm a B-52 pilot, I did something human, I was lied to, and I lied.
		That was the original story, right?
		I was lied to and I lied.
		Okay, under those circumstances, you can say to Aeris Human, the good old boy network did a lot of it and they did and they got away with it, and we all know it's damn well true.
		Pilots who screwed around on their wives probably got called on it by commanders, and the good old boy network took care of it.
		Now, this is beginning to turn into a different kind of case.
		My sympathies at first were with Lieutenant Flynn.
		But it appears, if you believe what we're being told in the last, well, I don't know, 24 hours, that she lied a lot.
		Now, here's somebody who flies a B-52 and is charged with transporting the nation's most lethal nuclear devices, and I'll tell you something about the military.
		I was in the Air Force, and one thing that You did not do is fraternize.
		That's bad enough on the face of it.
		Now, if that was all that it was, I would have been prepared to say she didn't do anything any different than anybody else or many others have done, and she shouldn't be treated any differently.
		And I would have been on her side.
		In the last 24 hours, I think what has been revealed is a very different story.
		The NTSB is urging, urging airlines to take steps, to certain steps, to prevent explosions in airline fuel tanks.
		Interesting.
		I wonder what they're going to do.
		Marv Albert, among the most recognizable sportscasters in America, has now been indicted on forcible sodomy and assault battery charges stemming from an alleged February 12th incident in a Virginia hotel room.
		Arlington police say Albert was charged Monday in Arlington Circuit Court with one felony count of forcible sodomy and one misdemeanor count of assault and battery.
		An unidentified woman claimed that Albert hit her, forced her to commit sodomy at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Arlington.
		Police say the 41-year-old Vienna Virginian native had known Albert for 10 years.
	Albert, a broadcaster for NBC Sports, and the New York Knicks, denies all the charges in a statement says he will fight them.
	I, uh...
	I want to tell you what's coming up tomorrow night, but before I do, let me give you some current news just in case you have seen this.
	This is from Albuquerque, and it's entitled Strange Light Over Albuquerque Near Sunset Today.
	Late this afternoon, Art, myself and others observed a bright white light in the western sky.
	It was diamond-shaped, with the wider dimension of the diamond horizontal and the shorter dimension vertical.
	At first, I thought it was either a plane approaching from the west with landing lights on, or a reflection from the sun off the bottom of a jet or weather balloon.
	I changed this opinion as the object very slowly moved away toward the west and did not significantly diminish in brightness as the sun faded.
	It was eventually lost behind the clouds.
	It was visible for at least half an hour, so the movement was indeed very, very slow.
	Did you get any similar reports from Arizona or California?
	Anything official?
	Strangest thing I've seen in a long time, definitely in the wrong direction, to be anything from White Sands.
	Lewis.
	Lewis, I received a number of faxes and emails from the Albuquerque area.
	Yes, something indeed was seen.
	Now, this leads us into what we're going to do for a little bit tomorrow night.
	As you know, there was a big UFO flap in Arizona.
	And I've got an article here from the Arizona Republic entitled, City Probe of UFOs is Grounded.
	Phoenix has no air force.
	Phoenix may have opened an X-file on recent UFO sightings over the city, but don't expect it to confirm the existence of Arizona-bound extraterrestrials.
	Councilwoman Frances Emma Barwood recently asked the city staff to look into reports of bright lights in the city's March skies.
	The staff's finding, the city doesn't have an Air Force, so there isn't much to tell.
	Frances Emma Barwood is a city councilwoman in Phoenix.
	She would like an investigation to find out what the hell happened in Phoenix.
	I'm going to have her on the program tomorrow night.
	We'll see what she has to say.
	Very courageous woman, and normally when you begin talking about this kind of thing, particularly if you are in elected office, you put yourself in jeopardy.
	So I say hooray for her, and I wish there were more like her around the U.S. Anyway, tomorrow night, she'll be here.
	The following evening, I'm going to have on from the big island of Hawaii, Terrence McKenna, who has a theory called time wave zero.
	We're going to talk to Terrence about time.
	What time is, and what we are approaching.
	He is suggesting that as we get closer to time wave zero, we'll find out what that is, we are experiencing tachyon radiation.
	Evidently, the impending event, does that sound familiar, is so colossal that it will emit such intense radiation that some of it takes the form of faster-than-light-speed tachyon particles or waves, which, because they travel faster than light, are actually being hurtled backward in time.
	The closer we get to this event, the greater the radiation density, hence the more frequently and intently we experience paranormal phenomena associated with it.
	That's going to be the next night.
	Now, Friday night, Saturday morning at midnight, Victor is going to be here.
	If you have not yet seen the second photograph of what is said to be an interrogation of an alien creature at Area 51, then you had better get up to my website and take a look.
	It is a world exclusive.
	This photograph is nowhere else.
	And the man Who allegedly took this video from which this photograph comes?
	Victor, he is called, will be interviewed here for an hour beginning at midnight, Friday night, Saturday morning, Pacific Time.
	He will be using a voice-changing device.
	Following Victor's appearance here, or concurrent with, I'm not sure yet, we'll have Sean David Morton.
	I may invite Whitley Streeber, who has seen that videotape many times, in its entirety, a luxury we have not had, and was greatly, significantly emotionally affected by what he saw.
	I don't know, I'm still working on that.
	He has certainly offered to appear.
	And so I've got to give Whitley a call probably tomorrow or so and see how that show is going to shape up.
	But then it'll be followed by Sean David Morton on Friday night, Saturday morning.
	So that's the way the rest of this week is going to shape up.
	That's the news.
	And now we're going to have open lines.
	Anything all of you want to talk about is fair game.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		This is Tina calling from Kentucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Tina.
unidentified		I was very upset about the story that I heard tonight.
		I don't know if I have a headache or a stroke, or maybe both.
		The reason why I was calling, I can't wait until September to find out, you know, about her book.
		I was wondering if there were any other ways that I could find out, you know, the safest foods to feed my cat, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, sure.
		I can tell you right now what she would say because she did say it.
		She said, feed your animals what you consider fit for human consumption.
unidentified		Would that be like tuna that you feed a human?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay, what about turkey and chicken?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would presume so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, food that you would consider, you know, for yourself would be good for your animals.
unidentified		Okay, and that book is coming out in September?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		You have to bear with me.
unidentified		I'm sorry to sound, you know, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, it's quite all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't imagine the thought process I went through before I decided to put this on the air.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought very hard about it because we're bumping heads here with an apparent rather dark multi-billion dollar industry, and we're exposing knowledge that the American people simply never had.
unidentified		I just never had a clue.
		I have a cat.
		Her name is Weasel, and I do everything I can to take good care of her, and I'll spend whatever it takes to make sure that she stays healthy.
		And I'm just thank God that I listened to your show tonight.
		I just wanted to call in to find out more about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm glad you did.
		And while I'm at it, dear, thank you.
		It was a two-hour program.
		Okay, I'm going to make this program available right now.
		That's what I'm going to do.
		It's a two-hour program that we just did.
		If you want it, call beginning now.
		I would imagine that would be the best thing you could do right now is get the program, share it with your friends, share it with media in your town, get the program.
		It's all very painfully detailed in the program, and I really think that's our best shot.
		So get that program, and as I said, share it with friends.
		People you care about.
		If you feel about animals the way I do, actually, if you feel about the human race the way I do, you will do exactly that because that's information you will never get, as far as I know, anywhere else, unless the press gets off their dead butt.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
		Oh, don't leave me this way.
		I can't live, can't live my life.
		Without your own, you won't leave me away.
		I can't exist, I'll surely miss your tender kiss, don't leave me this way.
		Baby, my heart is full of love, I desire for you, now come on down and do what you gotta do.
		You started this fire down in my soul, now can't you see it's burning, I control.
		Come on down and find the needy, only your good lovin'can set me free, don't leave me.
		Don't you leave me this way, no Don't you understand I'm not gonna be
		I met your command.
		Remember Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Good to be here despite some of the subject material that we've been dealing with.
unidentified		Good to be here despite some of the things that we've been dealing with, we've been dealing with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I think this may, look, two things about Ann Martin and the two hours we did.
		Number one, please call and get those two hours shipped off to you.
		Because I don't think you're going to get this information anywhere else, period.
		Item two, she gave an email Address, Keith Rowan, my webmaster, now has Anne's email address up on my website.
		So if you didn't get it, if you're used to going to my website, if you have a computer, web TV, whatever, go up to my website and you'll be able to send her email merely by clicking on her name.
		I thought I would read this to you and see if this resonates with you.
		Art, for sure, there will be people calling in and saying, oh, what's the big deal?
unidentified		Cats eat rats, don't they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what could be worse than feeding them rats?
		Well, the answer is this.
		It's something that we all know is wrong.
		And it comes from deep within us and has no speakable expression.
		We just know within ourselves that it is wrong to feed a cat to a cat or a dog to a dog.
		To allow ourselves to be reasoned out of what our deepest knowledge and instinct tells us is to be robbed of our individual faculties to the point we could eventually be convinced it's okay to eat each other.
		Using virtually the same arguments that were used to make us accept the horrendous rendering process described by Anne.
		We have to hold fast to our instincts and senses.
		Regina in Seattle.
		And I could not have said it better, Regina.
		There are those who will certainly come forward and say, well, what's wrong with doing it?
		Well, in your heart, in your mind, in your most basic instinctual feelings as a human being, you know damn well it's wrong.
		And so do I. That's the answer to it.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Tootie in Northern California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
unidentified		Pretty good.
unidentified		Actually, I think that I am the person who has the dubious distinction now of being the first person to have mentioned this subject to you on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're the one who got it started.
unidentified		Yeah, I am.
		I remember your reaction to it when I talked to you about it.
		I had just come back from a talk given by John Lyman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I must say my reaction to it since your call hasn't changed.
unidentified		Well, yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If anything, it's more.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		I think that you said that you have had John Lyman on your show previously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd be glad to have him on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Ann Martin turned out to be somebody who just wrote a book on the subject, did a lot of research, and so she seemed logical, and I thought she did a very cogent presentation.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		I'm sorry I missed the first hour.
		Also, I think Leonard Horowitz, it seems to be like right up his alley.
		And there were a few things about it, and one of the things is like what you just read, while cats are carnivorous, they are not cannibalistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, again, you know, we're the intelligent ones here, supposed to be, right?
		And deep down, instinctually, we know, I know it's wrong.
		It's as wrong, thank you, to feed cats to cats, dogs to dogs, cattle to cattle, or God help us, people to people, it's wrong.
		Instinctually, you know, it's wrong.
		I know it's wrong.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Carl from Fort Clinton, Ohio.
		Yes, sir.
		I'm a first-time caller, and I just had some comments on the situation with the cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And dogs.
unidentified		And dogs.
		Well, I grew up with cats.
		I grew up on a farm, and I witnessed probably several generations of cats.
		And my problem, or my solution to euthanizing cats is simply to bury my own cat in the backyard, which I've done.
		Yeah.
		And I've noticed that cats will get distemper if they eat mice and rats exclusively.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I did that when I was young once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I buried a golden retriever that was my love, and my dad had me help him bury that dog, and these are things you do not forget.
unidentified		That's right.
		And so that was my solution.
		And another thing, I've noticed that toms, the tomcats, will eat kittens if they're jealous of the mother cat.
		And once, I didn't know that there was a mother cat trapped in a room in a barn, and it ate the kittens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never seen that happen.
unidentified		Yes, it does happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying it doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never seen it happen and again, instinctually I think we know that cannibalistic things are not No, it isn't.
unidentified		However, I have no problem with the idea of using cat food that comes from rendering plants because I've always been aware that this happened.
unidentified		And I'm surprised that everybody was shocked that this is a big, damn problem with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have a gigantic problem with it if the rendering plants are as described.
		In other words, if they are taking animals that are diseased, or even not diseased, but diseased because they don't do autonomy.
		Damn it, I don't really want to go over all this again.
		I really don't know if I can handle it.
		But I have a big problem with it, a really big problem.
		And if you look at what's going on right now in Britain, you should have a problem with it too.
		Essentially feeding cow products to cows has rendered us a disease that is now attacking human brains.
		Bit of a species jump there, huh?
		So instinctually, you should have a problem with it.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Art.
		That's me, all right.
		Yes.
unidentified		My name is Don.
		I'm calling from Studio City, California.
		Yes.
		Are you familiar with the name David Adair?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David Adair.
		Yeah.
		The guy who puts out oil fires?
		Is it Adair?
		That's a different Adair.
unidentified		No, David Adair is a rocket scientist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A rocket scientist, all right?
unidentified		Yeah, and he's one of the, well, actually the only the second guy I know of who's seen UFOs in Area 51, 1971.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is Mr. Adair a rocket scientist?
unidentified		Well, he's worked for NASA, and he started when he was 11 building rockets in his backyard.
unidentified		When he was 17, he built a fusion rocket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me, a fusion rocket?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		It's the toughest rocket ever fired from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I find that very difficult to believe since we have not been able to achieve, but for a very split second, the fusion process in the biggest labs that we have in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did he do that?
unidentified		He did it because he didn't go to school and they didn't tell him that he couldn't do it.
		And he was working quantum mechanics, and he tied in with Stephen Hawking.
		Stephen Hawkings gave him some help on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is Mr. Adair alive?
unidentified		Yeah, as a matter of fact, he's coming to my house on Saturday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a matter of fact, then, why don't you have him contact me?
unidentified		Yeah, but I have a the reason that I'm phoning is that I got a serious problem.
		Now, C. SETI, Dr. Greer contacted him and had David Adair testify in front of Congress.
		There were 12 people testifying.
		Strom Thurmond was holding a meeting.
		He's the head of national security.
		Yes.
		And 10 of them were basically Air Force types.
		They saw radar blips, various UFOs, and that kind of thing.
		And then the 11th one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we've had this story from Dr. Greer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your point?
unidentified		Well, my point is that 11 of those people were allowed to interview the press, and David Adair was not allowed to interview the press.
unidentified		He's the only one that actually saw the rocket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I thought it worked the other way around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Generally, the press interviews people who testify.
unidentified		Yeah, after they had the meeting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying that David Adair was not allowed to talk to the press is what you need to say.
unidentified		That's exactly what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, you have David Adair contact me, and we will go from there.
		I'm a little skeptical about the fusion rocket at 17 business, but I'll listen to anything.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		One thing I was curious about on the partial birth abortion, and it never was explained to me yet, and I'm sure somebody probably can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Once the baby's partially born, how does killing it affect the life of the mother?
unidentified		Once the baby's actually partially born?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I'm not a doctor, and I don't pretend to know, but I guess even anti-abortion forces will admit that rarely, occasionally, there is in the process of birth, in other words, partial birth, a critical situation that develops that cannot be handled by C-section.
		Again, I'm not a doctor, sir, but all I know is this.
		If it was my wife, and if a doctor came to me and said, look, the baby is well down the birth canal or even nearly out, and we can't continue, there's hemorrhaging going on, it's either the baby or it's your wife, there's no contest.
unidentified		My wife's pregnant right now, and I understand that, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so what, so, so, so, sir, sir, sir, what would you do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would I do?
unidentified		I would, I would treat the wife of my life.
unidentified		I would say the baby must be removed, and my wife will live without a question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm sure.
unidentified		I just don't understand, you know, and I've never seen it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, I'm not a doctor, sir, so I don't understand either.
unidentified		I'll tell you, but somebody could call in, you know, maybe and help me understand that.
		But that's the only part I'm a little bit unclear.
		Otherwise, I feel completely like you, and if my wife was in a situation where she will be in September, you know, she'd have to give birth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I don't understand, thank you, is good luck to you, by the way.
		What I don't understand is why the people who are trying to draft this law cannot do what the Supreme Court always says people should do when trying to decide these matters that are near godlike, decisions that are near godlike.
		For God's sakes, why can't we say when there really is a verifiable danger to the mother's life, should the process continue, even though it be at the last moment, that the doctor can make that decision?
		And that if there is not that danger, and that can be medically determined, then we're talking about murder here.
		Why can't reasonable people get together and draft a reasonable law?
		What the hell is the matter with these people that we're sending back to Washington?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, Arg, this is Bill Ann Birmingham, listening on WAPI 1070.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Listen, I just wanted to let you know, they did do some changes in that bill that protects a doctor who is delivering a baby and runs into complications and must unexpectedly abort the baby or the fetus because the mother's life is in jeopardy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The president, sir, is still saying he's going to veto the measure.
unidentified		I just want to let you know that they did change that bill so that the doctor can abort the fetus if the mother's life is in danger during a delivery.
		Your fear of your wife having a baby, that's been done in the bill.
		It's taken out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what's the problem?
unidentified		Well, you said that you were worried about like if your wife was having a baby.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're damn right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you're saying that's taken care of if that's taken care of.
unidentified		Right.
		What's the problem?
		Well, there shouldn't be one then, according to your objection to the bill, because that's been changed.
		And the AEMA, because of that change, is now supporting it.
		So President Clinton has the bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then I don't see what the problem is then.
unidentified		And anyway, everybody look forward to the new Mercedes-Benz being produced here in Alabama.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Take care.
		Ayah, there should not be a problem as long as that is specifically part of the bill.
		And it may be that the bill is still too wide or has become too narrow.
		I really don't know.
		I just know that I know the way I feel.
		And I know the way I think most men would feel.
		And if that's taken care of, then I don't see what The problem is, and I would like somebody to explain it to me why the threatened veto was to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning, Art.
		This is Charlie over here in Medford, Oregon Calling.
		I was wanting to find out: did you catch on TLC channel tonight the special one-hour thing they had on Area 51?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I heard about it, but I didn't see it.
unidentified		I've got it on videotape.
unidentified		Would you like to have me pop you a copy of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, maybe so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell us, give us a brief.
unidentified		Well, I was able to catch the first 20 minutes of it before I had to head out the door and go to work, but basically, they went on to Area 51 with a camera crew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I don't believe that.
unidentified		Well, I don't know.
unidentified		Like I said, I caught about the first 20 minutes that I had to head out the door and go to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They may have gone near Area 51.
unidentified		They were showing pictures inside, yes.
		And they showed them going down an elevator, way down underground and whatnot.
		Really?
		And they also showed an aerial photograph taken right overhead, apparently from a satellite shot.
		And they went zooming right down on top of part of that vase.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Brought it right down to beautiful photography.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Oh, yes.
		I've seen photographs.
		The Russians take them all the time, sir.
unidentified		Uh-huh, but I didn't know if you might be interested in getting a copy of that tape of that program just to watch it for whatever it's worth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like I would be, yes.
unidentified		Okay, well, I've got your address, so I will get you a copy in the mail by the end of the week then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend, thank you.
unidentified		All right, thank you.
unidentified		Have a good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Uh, gee, underground?
		Now that is in Area 51 in an elevator going down below area 51.
		What do you think they've got down there?
		I have a hard time swallowing that, but A. Anything's possible, I suppose.
		However, if I had a camera crew and I could get on Area 51 somehow if they would take me there, which I doubt, A. B. Um, if they were to take me in and take me down an elevator and show me something or another, would I have confidence that I saw what was really there in its totality?
		Not a chance.
		So I doubt it first, but secondly, even if that did occur, and I will check into it, yes, I'd love to see that.
		If it really did occur, then I doubt they saw anything other than what the people there wanted them to see.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Alex from Santana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		You know, I had a question regarding these new hours that you're going to be having as of next month.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I'm a little curious as to how you're going to handle this with all the networks around the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the stations, you mean?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're already getting pretty much of an indication that the majority of the stations are going to be following us to the earlier hour.
		Now, not all of them will.
		Not all of them will.
		However, in cases where they don't, the breakpoint is going to be 3 o'clock.
		In other words, it's still going to be a five-hour show.
		So here in the Pacific time zone, if you miss the first part of it, you're going to begin catching up at 3 a.m. because they're going to go into replay at 3.
unidentified		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's not so serious.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you can imagine for the people on the East Coast and the other time zones, it makes a gigantic difference.
unidentified		Yeah.
		By the way, Art, I just wanted to tell you that my brother and I, we both listen to you, and we just love your program.
		We love it when Richard Hoagland comes on.
		And tonight's show, totally sick.
		Just completely sick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		So, anyways, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me something.
		Tell me something, sir.
		If you had been in my position, would you have aired what I aired tonight?
unidentified		Actually, no, because it's so disgusting.
		But, see, that's where I admire you.
		You have the guts.
		You have what it takes to actually bring something that is so perverse in nature, you know.
		It's like, you know, beating your children, your grandmother.
		Yeah, I mean, it's just, I mean, that's how sick that is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		I thought real hard before I heard it.
		But again, this fact from Regina in Seattle says it for me.
		In other words, we have instincts as human beings.
		We may have masked a lot of our instincts, but we still have them.
		And we know, and you know, most of you anyway, deep down in your heart, you know what's wrong.
		You know what is profoundly wrong, and that is profoundly wrong.
		Accountibalism in any form is wrong.
		That's my opinion.
		That's my instinct.
		And apparently it's a reality.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
		When he came across this young man sewing on the fiddle and playing it hot, and the devil jumped up on a hickory stump and said, boy, let me tell you what.
		I guess you didn't know it, but I am a fiddle player too.
		And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
		Now, you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his view.
		I'll get a fiddle of gold against your soul, so I think I'm better you.
		The boy said, my name's Johnny, and it might be a sin, but I'll take your bet, you're going to regret, because I'm the best it's ever been.
		Johnny, Ross, up your boy, play your fiddle heart.
		Don't help a loose Georgia man, but the devil feels a heart.
		And if you and you get this shiny little made of gold.
		Ooh, and it's all right, it's coming home.
		We gotta get right back where we started going.
		Nothing good, nothing wrong.
		We gotta get right back where we started going.
		Ah, ah, ah.
		Do you remember me?
		That's a shiny little made.
		When you first came my way, I said no one could take your way.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		You're listening to Arkbell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely is top of the morning, everybody.
		Good to be with you.
		And I've got something to talk to you about in a moment.
		I guess we're going to have to make our way through this the best way we can.
		And I'm talking about this partial birth abortion business.
		I'm not afraid to tackle it.
		You want to tackle it?
		We'll talk about it.
unidentified		We'll talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dear, the Santorum bill allows for intact dilation and extraction only to be used to save the woman's life, not to protect the health.
		By contrast, the alternative proposed by Daschell, endorsed by Clinton, banned all late-term abortions except when needed to save a woman's right to life or protect her health from grievous injury.
		The health and grievous injury is what Clinton supports.
		The term is a broad in legal terms.
		It results in abortion on demand.
		All right, well, nobody but a damn fool or a person interested in genocide would support abortion on demand late term or this horrible little thing that occurs at the end.
		But again, I'm going to say this, and I really mean it.
		I don't know what these damn fools are doing in Washington on both sides of this issue.
		And I am absolutely beside myself that they cannot come to a reasonable conclusion regarding this awful thing known as partial birth abortion.
		And I know that in the medical world there are many, many, many circumstances, and each one of them are different.
		And the only way I can think of to tell you this, and I'll tell it to you again, if a doctor came to me and said, Mr. Bell, your wife is, the baby's already in the birth canal or partially out or whatever, and there's internal hemorrhaging going on or whatever in God's name could cause her death, and the doctor said to proceed with this birth is going to kill your wife in all likelihood.
		But I'm sorry, Mr. Bell.
		I can't do it because there's a law that says that I've got to opt to save the child, not the mother.
		If I had it, I'd take a gun and I'd put it to his head until he did what I told him to do, which would be to save my wife.
		I think it's rare.
		I think it's very rare.
		And what is really ticking me off is that the people back in Washington can't get it together enough so that on the one hand, we don't let every abortion on request go through and that we're not killing babies for horrid reasons that have nothing to do with saving the mother's life.
		But then on the other hand, even if it's extremely rare, we cannot take care of cases where it's one life versus the other.
		Now, why is it not possible for those people that we elect and send back there to waste our money to get together as reasonable men as defined by the Supreme Court, reasonable, the word reasonable, and come up with a reasonable solution that both sides can live with?
		What the hell do we pay them for?
		So that's my comment.
		I don't want partial birth abortion, but I also don't want the other side of the coin.
		I don't want some law that says my wife's life can't be saved.
		I'm not a doctor, and I suppose many of you aren't either.
		And I know there are strong opinions on both sides.
		It's like right down the middle, 50, 50.
		All I know is there are lots of different medical circumstances.
		I was a medic in the Air Force.
		I know about that much.
		And each one of them is individual and specific.
		And so I don't think there's any easy answer to this.
		But I think there is a reasonable conclusion that can be come to and written as law if necessary.
		So I hope that straightens it out.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Washington metropolitan area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Washington, D.C.?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		The partial birth abortion, the partial birth abortion deal doesn't, the change that was acceptable to Dashel didn't say to protect the life of the mother against grievous injury.
		It said grievous physical injury, bodily injury.
		As far as cats go and the rendering, I like birds a lot, and I think they're almost as smart as cats.
		So I've got a little problem sometimes with cats when they're...
		No, when they're so profligate, they proliferate so much that they eat so many birds.
		A bird actually came up to me in the country once because it hit the cat that I had saved from this parking lot.
		This first cat I've ever saw cry.
		I took it down to the vet and had its eye fixed because it got in a fight, but I had to shoot that cat, and I'll never shoot another cat.
		I'll have it put to sleep.
		But this cat ate so many birds that birds actually came up and sat in front of me, two feet from me, and glared at me.
		It blew my mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, look, I'm not going to defend, sir, I'm not going to defend cats for eating birds.
		It's a natural thing.
		At least it's another species.
		What we're discussing here virtually is cannibalism, and you've got to know it's wrong.
unidentified		Well, cats eat us, and people in the Orient also eat cats.
unidentified		It's a Vietnamese dish called ke gogi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that, but at least it's interspecies, for God's sakes.
		Thank you, what we're talking about here is cannibalism, the very same problem that has birthed this horrid little disease known as mad cow disease that has jumped species and now is infecting human brains and killing people so if i've got to read this facts again this one that talks about our basic instinctual understanding of what is wrong i will i know that
		cats, birds, maybe cats if they're left in a house with a dead person eat a person.
		Lots of species eat other species.
		Lots of horrible things occur.
		I know that, but what I'm talking about here is a massive, probably worldwide campaign that is eventually going to produce something terrible for us.
		All right, forget the poor cats, forget the poor dogs.
		If you wish to think of it in no other terms, think of it as protection for you, because eventually if we keep doing what we damn well know is wrong, it's going to come back and kick us in the butt if it already has not begun to do so.
		And again, I particularly would urge you to get the two-hour show with Ann Martin, the one we just did.
		Get a copy of it because you're probably not going to hear this anywhere else.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, how you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay.
unidentified		All right, I'd like to speak to Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me.
unidentified		All right, well, how you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As well as the first guy, you asked.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, I'd like to speak to you about a well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to speak to me about a well?
		I've got one in my backyard.
		It's inside an enclosure.
		We keep it that way so it's protected.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, camels will spit at you.
		Cats will stare you down.
		And dogs will bite you.
		Only if you let them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really solid reasoning, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You plucked that from the depths of your well, no doubt.
unidentified		First time caller line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Mr. Bell.
		Mr. Bell.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I think I've accomplished that.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I got through.
unidentified		This is Joe in Willows, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I've been listening to you for a few years and finally really touched my buttons on this one.
		I want to congratulate you, first of all, for your many stations that you're picking up and all your exposure on TV and whatnot.
		Thank you.
		And I want to thank Regina, I guess it was, for that great fact that really hit home with me.
		I think when I first heard about BSE, it was the first time I, you know, reports about that was when I realized that ruminant seed was given to the livestock that everyone depends on so much.
		Yeah.
		And, uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this is really one of those things that I think we just understand, or at least anybody with, their basic instincts, still somewhat intact, understands is wrong.
unidentified		Yes, indeed.
		And I think the media, like you said, is really an important force as these things go.
		And people's viewpoints are just really shaped by them more than they, I think, would want to admit to.
		And, uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's probably going to get me in trouble, but, you know, I'm used to it now.
unidentified		Yeah, I guess I just wanted to defend a little with your, uh, or kind of disagree with your claiming to, uh, not be exposed to it at all.
unidentified		I actually heard about it, uh, getting more specific to the, uh, pet food thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I never heard about it.
unidentified		I heard about it the first time a few months ago on an interview, the guy who wrote, um, uh, Deadly Feast, uh, the BSE book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard of that, yes.
unidentified		He was doing an interview on your affiliate in San Francisco here, actually.
unidentified		And I'd heard him on other interviews, NPR radio and PBS McNeil, or our reason, and...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'd be KSFO in San Francisco.
unidentified		Yeah, but it wasn't until the KSFO interview that they actually brought up the pet food thing, and I was...
		i was floored by it and sure enough actually when i was doing some research on uh bovine growth hormone uh came across a website of ben and jerry's ice cream which led me to uh.
		uh...
		that one i think you mentioned about the pet food also verified that way well it's an amazing story uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and that you may have you know just about anything's on the net and i guess now the word is beginning to get out a little bit but i've never heard uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		on a national uh...
unidentified		show of any sort any discussion of this before and or had i tell it gets run off of people should have a look into that legislation regarding uh...
		labeling of recombinant bovine green growth hormone and kind of the politics around that it's pretty mind-blowing uh 10 percent increase in dairy output but then they've got to put them on drugs to keep them from getting infected udders and stuff and also on the birders the birds getting eaten by cats that's actually a big issue amongst bird fanatics I guess they're kind of crying out that people should restrain their cats.
		I don't know.
		I don't know how much I agree with that.
		I like cats.
		I think they're good for rodent control.
		If you don't feed them a bunch of cats all day, they'll actually eat your, you know, they'll actually do a job in the yard or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I guess one question would be, would a cat, as a normal circumstance, go and eat a cat that had been killed on the road?
		I think the answer is no.
unidentified		Oh, no.
		That's the heinous thing of it all.
		Definitely so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate the call, sir.
		You see, look, I'm not going to try to mix into this discussion the natural events of nature.
		Cats chasing birds, birds chasing worms, cats chasing rats, or mice.
		You know, I'm just not going to do that because what we're talking about here, I don't want it to get diluted with that sort of conversation.
		We're not talking about the same thing.
		My God, I understand that in nature, things eat each other.
		One species eats another species.
		We do it.
		What we're talking about here is cannibalism.
		Do You understand?
		Cannibalism.
		And that we know instinctually is profoundly wrong.
		And I think that's backed up by what's occurred in Britain.
		And eventually, if we continue the practice, what's going to occur or is already occurring, God help us, here.
		Are we clear on the difference?
		Used to the Rockies?
		You're on there.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is J.J. in Austin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, JJ.
unidentified		About on the subject of the pet foods, a couple of things.
		First of all, I grew up in a, not in Austin, but a different town.
		And I won't even mention the town because there's only one pet food plant there.
		But the whole neighborhood, I grew up in the neighborhood of this plant.
		The whole neighborhood has an awful odor.
		And conveniently, the plant is just a few blocks away from an oil refinery, so you don't really know what you're smelling, but it's awful.
		The combination of all the things that you can do.
		Sure it is, JJ.
		And it smells a lot like what the gentleman described earlier, the caller.
		I think it was the first caller you had that had all the experience in the meat business.
		He described the smell of rendering plants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is, JJ, a smell of death.
		If you've ever been in war, you know what it is.
		If you're an animal and you're near a rendering or a slaughterhouse, you know what it is.
		And animals react to it instinctually.
		And if you get a dog or a cat or an animal near a slaughterhouse, they will go screeching away.
unidentified		Well, I, like you, had not heard anything about this until your show last week.
		And so the first thing I did was I called up the whole food store that I go grocery shopping on myself, and I asked them about it.
		And actually, what I was asking was about their pet food, what kind of pet food they carried.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they wouldn't know, JJ.
unidentified		Well, what was odd is that the lady knew all about it.
		She said, well, we do carry pet-free pet food.
		And I said, what did you say?
		And I had her expound on it, and I couldn't believe that she knew about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, apparently, thank you.
		Some people do know about it.
		Very, very few people know about it, pet-free pet food.
		And I hope after tonight, a hell of a lot more people know about it.
		And I hope a lot of you take the time and trouble to order that tape, spread it about so more people know about it.
		And maybe despite the fact that we're butting our heads up against probably a multi-billion dollar industry, people will do something about it.
		Eventually, if the news gets out, somebody will do something about it.
		It's wrong.
		It's just wrong.
		You know it, I know it.
		And I suspect the people doing it know it.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		I'm Dave from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dave.
unidentified		And I just want to make the comment that I think we finally found a use for PETA and the Committee for Science in the Public Interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would think this would be a definite thing they would want to grab on to.
unidentified		Well, I can't think of anything else that they've been any use for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you talk about people for the ethical treatment of animals, I would say this falls straight into the ethics category, wouldn't you?
unidentified		Yeah, I would.
		I've got four cats myself, and I love the little monster dearly.
		But the idea of feeding them other parts of cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I can even, sir, I can transcend, believe it or not, as much as I love cats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand that Vietnamese, for example, might get a cat, horrible as it would seem to me, and eat it.
unidentified		Well, I can understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As we eat a cow, I can understand that.
		But that, again, one species eating another.
		It's not cannibalism.
unidentified		I don't have a problem with that.
		If culture says you're going to eat a dog or a cat, then that's your culture, and that's what's going to have to be done.
		But, you know, I don't have a problem with that unless I come after my pets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But as a regular practice, eating dogs.
		Bad idea.
		I know it in my heart and my mind.
		It's a bad idea.
unidentified		And as for partial birth abortion, I cannot conceive of any condition that a woman could go under that having most of that baby born already.
		I mean, if she sneezes, the rest of it is going to be out and it's going to be over with.
		There's not going to be a problem anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, sir, there are a million, million, million circumstances.
		There's a million babies born, millions of them, and there are a million different circumstances.
		It may be very rare, but I do believe it can happen.
unidentified		Well, I just can't conceive of one.
unidentified		But anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you a doctor?
unidentified		No, sir, I am not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe we'll talk to a doctor and find out if there is.
		All right, thank you.
		Maybe there's a doctor out there who could conceive of one.
		I think it's extremely rare.
		Extremely rare.
		I'm sure it is extremely rare, but I was a medic in the Air Force, and I can conceive of very different circumstances.
		And only when you get to the point where you are virtually weighting one life against another life, could I even imagine such a decision being made?
		And it would be horrendous.
		And I wouldn't want to have to make it, but, you know, there would be no contest about the decision.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		KQMS, Reading, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, you know what?
		When I had my first baby, it was really, really, really complicated.
		And they decided to do an emergency C-section.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And so, like, everybody, there was like these papers were put in front of my face.
		And my husband was helping me move my hand on the paper.
		You know what?
		All I wanted was the pain to stop.
		That's all I cared about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		And I was so glad to have, you know, my life in the hands of somebody who loved me more than life itself instead of the Government.
		Yeah.
		You know, you want to know something else that kind of makes me mad?
		You know, I go out of my way to look on like makeup and stuff and make sure it's not tested on animals.
		I didn't know it was made from animals.
		They ought to put that on there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		That pisses me off.
		I go out of my way.
		I pay more money for stuff that is not tested on animals.
		Yeah, but it's made of, you know, cats.
		I feel really stupid now.
		You know what else?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I feel stupid after hearing that whole two hours.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I'm like, ew, you know what this is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I feel annoyed that I wasn't told about this before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I feel betrayed, sort of.
unidentified		Well, you know what this makes me think about?
		It makes me think about what else have they kept from us and what else is in our process room?
		My God, what else am I eating?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You probably don't want to know.
unidentified		Oh, I'm scared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, dear.
unidentified		Love you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See you later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		Coast AM from May 20, 1997.
		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from May 20th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Amen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Again, I really hope, you know, I understand that when you make a statement about abortion, either pro-con, or whatever, that you annoy about half the people out there because the American people are split down the middle.
		And all I'm saying is that reasonable people should be able to come to a reasonable conclusion with regard to what can or should and should not be done with regard to abortion.
		I think people who think that it should be free and easy and on-demand are out of their minds.
		It's nothing less than the taking of life.
		But I do not believe that there are circumstances, rare though they might be, where the life of the mother would be in jeopardy.
		And I'm just simply telling you that in my case, if that was the case, there wouldn't be any contest.
		Do you understand?
		There wouldn't be any contest.
		You're talking about one life versus the other.
		Easy choice for me.
		And I think that if, you know, if the medical community can't agree on this, which they can't, then you and I are not going to agree on this.
		Are we?
		And then they say, I heard on the radio that you're going to change your starting time from 11 p.m. to 10 p.m. beginning on the 16th of June.
		Can you confirm or deny?
		Sure.
		I confirmed Duane in Klamath Falls for you.
		That is true.
		I will begin the show at 10 o'clock, beginning June 16th, going into the 17th.
		We'll begin an hour earlier.
		And end an hour earlier, and then go into repeat beginning at 3 a.m. Pacific time.
		So that is a confirmation.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hey, here's a scenario.
		Well, this is Matthew.
		I'm calling from Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay, your wife's in the eighth month of her pregnancy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pregnancy, yes.
unidentified		The doctor comes to you and says the baby has something, there's possibly a 40% chance it could kill your wife.
unidentified		Are you going to have it aborted or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A 40% chance it might kill my wife.
unidentified		See, that's the problem with letting the legislators put in that kind of language.
unidentified		The doctor gets to decide what's lethal and what's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't believe that's a decision for the doctor.
		I think that the doctor's duty is to inform you of the danger as you just presented it to me and let you make the decision or let the woman make the decision or preferably both partners make the decision.
		And I can't tell you this second what I would do under those circumstances.
		I would talk to my wife and I would ask her how she wanted to proceed.
		I think I'm telling you what I would do.
unidentified		I used to work in delivery room and in cases like what you're stating, you know, where the baby looks like it's going to take the mother's life, if they can ask the mother, they do.
		If they can't ask the mother, the doctors that I worked with lots of times would just automatically take the baby's life.
		They wouldn't even ask the husband.
		Well, they would just try to save the baby's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's screwed.
		I think that's screwed.
		Is that clear enough for you?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, with respect to this whole abortion thing, when women can make babies all by themselves, then I would think they would be the only ones who would need to be consulted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since they cannot yet do that, I would think consulting the father, particularly if the mother's under, should be a matter of law.
unidentified		Well, usually it's so quick, it happens so fast that they've got to make a decision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, and I understand that that can happen too, sir.
		Thank you.
		That there would be, I'm sure, see, that's what I'm trying to say, that there's no absolute in this whole argument.
		There is no absolute.
		And there may be situations in which a doctor who Has pledged above all to do no harm and to try to save lives has got to make a decision without the luxury of time to ask anybody about anything.
		So there's no absolute here, and it's going to be very, very difficult to legislate under these conditions.
		Still, I believe that reasonable people, given some time, can come up with at least guidelines.
		Very hard to come up with a law, but guidelines that reasonable people can live with.
		I don't know how else to put this.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
		We're holding for you to turn your radio off.
		Very good.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Nashville, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nashville.
		Yes, sir.
		As a matter of fact, I did an hour with the...
		Oh, you heard that in Nashville?
unidentified		Well, I was calling regarding Regina's facts on the issue of cannibalism on animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I wanted to make just two points on that.
		I agree with what she said, but I do think I want to make a distinction.
		I think we do need to combine our instincts with our reasoning.
		And they go together because our reasoning, the reason behind that instinct, repulsive, the instinctive repulsion against cannibalism is our fear that we ourselves might be eaten or a victim of cannibalism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't think that's the totality of it.
		there's no real threat of uh...
		by human cannibalism right now is there uh...
unidentified		one of the the the idea that uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		if you know Right now it's limited to cats.
unidentified		But once we take the step of condoning it or proving it in one form or another, then we set ourselves up for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Look.
		Here's another.
		Let me give you another example.
		All right, in the same category.
		Incest.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have basic instincts as human beings against incest, don't we?
		Right.
		And at least some of the time, the consequences of incest are horrible.
		Birth deformities, brain damage, blah, blah, blah, that kind of thing, right?
		So there is a perfect example of our instincts being verified by repercussions in nature.
		In Britain, they fed cows to cows, and now we have mad cow disease to contend with.
unidentified		Okay, yeah, and that brings up, I'm not sure that that is the same as the incest example, because I think it is.
		There is a transmission there of, it wasn't a virus, what does she call it?
		Not a virus or a bacteria, but something else.
		And I forget the terms she used, but it is not cannibalism itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The analogy is loose, but it's consistent in the sense that we all have instinctual understanding of the wrong of incest.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Instinctually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We just basically know it.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And just as we basically know you don't feed one species to itself.
		Right.
		That's the analogy.
		It's a broad analogy.
		It's not specific.
unidentified		Right.
		Just my point is that I think we should combine that and temper that with an exact, until we know an exact consequence of that.
		Well, that's my genetic analogy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		we know there's genetic deformity we know that there is There are cases, sir, where there are cases where a brother and a sister can go to bed and they can have a child that is perfectly healthy.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
		Yes, sometimes.
		My analogy, I believe, to be good.
		Instinctually, we know these things are wrong.
		Don't we?
		Unless we mask our instincts, or unless society and the state of society today masks our instincts, and I think more frequently these days that is occurring.
		There you have it.
		The quickening.
		By the way, yes, the quickening is now once again available for a period of time unspecified or until I get sick of signing books.
		You can get an autographed copy of the quickening.
		It is still a first edition.
		There will be a second.
		It is the second printing of the first edition, and you can still get an autographed copy.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Did I actually hear someone say something as stupid as that if someone was in the eighth trimester, that what would you do if...
		Yeah, I did.
		So did someone, was someone stupid enough to say that if someone was in the eighth month, what would you do if they needed a partial birth abortion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, he didn't say partial birth abortion.
		He said if your wife was in the eighth month and to proceed, there would be a 40% chance of her death.
		What would you do?
unidentified		Well, what about a C-section?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose it might be viable, or it might be that there are some conditions in which even a C-section, which is an operation, suppose she had an unstable heart suddenly.
		Suppose a lot of things.
		I mean, that's what I'm trying to say.
		There's no simple, straightforward, cut it down the middle answer for this because every situation is specific.
unidentified		Well, it seems to me that if someone got a baby that is eighth in the eighth month, then you could do a C-section normally.
unidentified		And that would probably be less traumatic than any abortion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but suppose your wife had a sudden heart condition and that she couldn't withstand, there was a 40, 50, 60% chance that she could not withstand the trauma of a C-section.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what?
unidentified		Well, why would she be able to withstand the trauma of a partial birth abortion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying she would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		i'm not saying she would i i really i think that the babies are like I know I was two months premature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Babies can become viable at six and seven months, as you mentioned.
		There's no question about that.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And how many cases are there actually where a baby is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		it's i think a matter of convenience i i don't know well of perhaps what people are really they don't know I appreciate the call, and I understand that's the argument that people make who are anti-abortion.
		And I understand anti-abortion because I'm more anti-abortion than not.
		But it's not an absolute.
		It's not an absolute.
		We don't live in an absolute world.
		We live in a world full of shades of gray.
		Between white and black, there are shades of gray, and that's the world for the most part we live in.
		There are damn few absolutes.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		I did.
		Good.
		Thank you.
		I didn't call about this abortion thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
unidentified		I've only got one opinion on it.
		Let the government get out of it and let the doctors and people handle it.
		That's it.
		Anyway, I called you about this pet thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
unidentified		What happened to just taking your pet to the Back 40, bury it, put a tombstone, and like my Indian grandmother did?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what happened, sir, is that a lot of people live in the middle of big cities now, and all there is is concrete.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is no Back 40 anymore.
unidentified		Well, that's true.
unidentified		But they do have cemeteries for them, don't they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do, but a lot of people can't afford it.
		A lot of people are just confident that when they go to their vet and their animal is put down for some reason of mercy, that that animal is then cremated or taken care of in some way like that, and they go away, usually with tears in their eyes, not thinking about it.
		I've done it.
unidentified		You mean you let it be cremated or whatever?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, in other words, I had no idea.
unidentified		Oh, you let the vet take care of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the vet said, I will take care of it for you.
		And that's how you leave it.
		And you assume that, and you know what happens when you assume, broken down on a blackboard.
		So I've done it.
		I've taken several animals in and had them put to sleep.
unidentified		And like I said, my grandmother was an old Sioux Indian, and she didn't go with the cremation like the Apaches and all them people did with people.
unidentified		But my grandfather had a pet chicken, and she actually buried it with a walnut back in, you know, in a nice meadow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why with a walnut?
unidentified		Well, I guess when that tree grows, it's a marker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		It was part of their heritage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you get an opportunity, go to a bookstore and get a book called Speaker for the Dead.
		You want to read a good book?
		And that comment with regard to the tree just reminded me of it.
		Get a book called Speaker for the Dead and read it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning to you, too.
		This is Chris in Seminole, Florida.
		I have a few things to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		First of all, you said a little while back that none of the major media has covered mad cow disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
unidentified		Excuse me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mad cow disease has been all over the media.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said, as far as I know on a national basis, no media has covered this rendering of our pet food, dogs and cats, taken from veterinarians, taken from animal shelters, to rendering plants where they're turned into pet food for dogs and cats.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I said.
unidentified		I've heard you talking about this.
unidentified		I didn't get to tune in for the first two, three hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But anyway, Daideline covered it.
unidentified		I don't know if you've covered it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, mad cow disease, sir, has been all over the media.
unidentified		Right.
		I don't know if you've covered this, though.
		They stated, this was near the beginning of April, that neither heat nor radiation nor cold would destroy mad cow disease or mad sheep disease is in this country.
		And also someone mentioned recombinant bovine growth hormone, BGH, RBGH, and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I have a text file I remember reading and I was able to pull up where the U.S. DA actually tried to encourage the farmers, the dairy farmers in Wisconsin, to take their RBGH or BGH or BST or, you know, those are the names for it, and promising a 40% increase in growth.
unidentified		However, they soon found, as previous callers said, that they were suffering from more aggressive forms of cancer to their others, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what is cancer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		cancer is a runaway growth of cellular material, right?
unidentified		Right, that the volume...
		Right, and the thing about cancer is that it is shielded in a sheath of fat, so the body can't readily recognize it in order to try to destroy it.
		Right.
		So that's exactly what they'll expect.
		And also from, yes, the Pure Food Campaign, they put out a list of products.
		As you may know, the dairy products that are sold, the government, federal government does not allow to be advertised as free of this hormone.
		However, Pure Food Campaign puts out a list of companies that are committed to not using dairy products with cows that take the hormone.
		Would you like me to back that to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long is it?
unidentified		A third of a page.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd love it.
		I'll give you that.
		Yes, please do.
		Do you have my facts number?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll look forward to it, sir.
unidentified		Okay, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Look, again, it comes down to and was best said by this lady who suggested that we simply follow our instincts, that instinctually we know what's right and wrong,
		as long as we have knowledge about what's going on, that we instinctually know what's right and wrong, and when we begin to compromise those instincts or try to intellectualize them away in favor of dollars, billions in this case, we eventually shoot ourselves in the foot.
		Wild Card line, you're on air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, let me just throw, Bob and Pocatello, something quick up there.
		If people will take one cup of cracked wheat and four cups of water, and we've raised three dogs over a period of 15 years on this, and boil that up at night, and they'll have plenty of dog food, and like you say, they'll be eating grass, but nevertheless, it's nourishing for them.
		also uh...
		uh...
		on the cell air force uh...
		gallant's being considered for court marshall i think the public you already had very convicted and i but i think is an officer i think she does have a right to resign her commission before she goes to courts marshall and uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		at that's my Well, she has a right to resign, but it is not mandatory that they give her an honorable discharge.
unidentified		Well, but they have to for cause, Hart, and she has not been convicted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When I was in the Air Force, they told me that to fraternize with an officer was...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon.
unidentified		Were your mom and dad both commissioned?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were both commissioned, yes.
unidentified		Oh, okay, I didn't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When I was an airman, sir, they told me to fraternize with an officer was a no-no, punishable by Article 15 or whatever.
unidentified		Did anybody have anything going on with a nurse when you were in the Air Force?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not only yes, but hell yes, it went on all the time.
		Of course it did.
		That's what I said earlier.
		I understand that this went on and that the good old boys let it slide a lot of times.
		But there's a lot of things now that are coming out about this woman that weren't known before.
unidentified		No, no, but it hasn't been established by Bob.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob.
unidentified		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say good night.
unidentified		Good night.
		Hey, good morning, Americans.
		Have a good day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, that's the way to do it.
		Good night.
		Good night, everybody from the high desert.
		I'm Mark Bell.

▲