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Feb. 25, 1997 - Art Bell

02:54:21

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Emily Lau - Hong Kong

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01:13:11

emily lau

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unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast A.M. from February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning as the case may be across this great land, this great globe.
		I'm Art Bell from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains in the west, at minimum, all the way east to the Virgin Islands in the Caribbean, US Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Good morning.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This morning, I am going to take you to China, Hong Kong, actually, soon to be China.
		And we're going to speak with a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council that has been called the Iron Lady of Hong Kong, Emily Lau.
		She is a spokesperson for Frontier, which is a pro-democracy group.
		Not party, but group.
		And so we will talk with Emily Lau.
		She was on CBS News this past Sunday.
		may have been her.
unidentified		Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
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		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up.
		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, we are going to the other side of the world, where I suspect it's probably wearing on in the afternoon, sometime after 3 o'clock or so.
		And here is Emily Lau.
		Emily, are you there?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
		Welcome to the program.
		Very, very happy to have you.
		Emily, how long have you been a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Since September of 1991, and that's the year that was the first time that we had elections in Hong Kong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
		Well, I visited your beautiful city, and I came away, Emily, with many impressions of a very, very vibrant, alive, capitalist jewel of a city where the people were very, very happy, but a little bit worried.
		And then I traveled into Canton, China, up to Canton, and there I found that people were not so happy.
		People seemed to be afraid.
		They were surprised to see Americans.
		They would come running out of their stores just to see Americans.
		So I had many very strange impressions of communist China, and one of them was it scared me.
		I had never seen so many factories, so much business going on, so many trucks going back and forth.
		And now in July, Hong Kong is going to revert to China, and I guess there's some trouble on the horizon.
		China apparently has voted down some laws that were supposed to stay in place, human rights-type laws.
		What happened on Sunday?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, on Sunday, the National People's Congress, and that is the Chinese Parliament, decided to repeal certain provisions in Hong Kong laws.
		Some of those are colonial laws, which of course should cease to be in force at the end of June anyway.
		But others relate to human rights, very fundamental basic human rights like the freedom of demonstration, the freedom of association, freedom of assembly, and so on.
		And because they think that we are too free, their excuse is that these rights are in breach of the basic law, which will be our mini-constitution in July.
		And that was, of course, promulgated by the National People's Congress in 1990.
		So the long and short of it, Art, is that the people are concerned.
		We are afraid that we will lose our freedoms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many people have left Hong Kong in the last several years, Emily?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think there is any exact figure.
		I mean, especially, I think the emigration from Hong Kong peaked shortly after the Tenan Minh Square massacre in Peking of 1989.
		And at the height of it, we saw about over 60,000 people leaving.
		I mean, we only have a population of around 6 million.
		But I think a rough estimate right now is that out of the 6 million people, as many as 1 million have already got foreign citizenship or right of abode elsewhere.
		So there are these people who have the means and they have acquired some kind of insurance policy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, how many people percentage-wise do you think would like to leave if they had the means to leave?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I just don't know.
		I don't think too many people really want to leave.
		This is our home.
		But if things go horribly wrong, then I would think many would want to leave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By then, of course, it will be too late.
		Now, China would have a great interest, it seems to many Americans, in keeping Hong Kong as an open trading center to the rest of the world to increase their already great trade.
		In other words, not to screw up a good thing, Emily.
		How do you feel about that?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		I mean, this is what they call their China will not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
		That's right.
		And I don't think China would deliberately want to kill that goose.
		Oh, no.
		But that is not the most important thing to China.
		And that's the first thing we must understand in looking at this whole Hong Kong situation.
		It's not a question of killing the goose or roasting the goose or what.
		The question is, it's control.
		That's what the Chinese want to make sure they have.
		And of course, in ending colonial rule, they are very proud.
		They say they're ending these centuries of shame of colonialism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I believe they have a clock in Tiananmen Square which is counting down the time until Hong Kong is returned.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, and there's one across the border from Hong Kong to Shenzhen.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		So there are many clocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I see.
		Emily, you're very outspoken.
		What do you think is going to happen to you in July when the change occurs?
		Will you suddenly just be out of office, or what will your position be?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're right.
		I will be out of office on July 1st, and so will all members of the pro-democracy lobby, because we have refused to take part in this farce called selection to the provisional legislature.
		We don't want anything to do with that.
		We want proper elections.
		The Chinese have said there is no time for election, so they have hand-picked a provisional legislature, and 20, 26 of us will have nothing to do with, so we will all be out of a job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The United States is a great force in the world, or at least we always have been.
		And I'm sure that many there look to the United States for some guidance, some help.
		What signals are the pro-democracy groups getting officially from the United States?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, officially, members of the Clinton administration and even members of Congress have told us that they are very concerned about Hong Kong and this handover is a very big event this year.
		But somehow we get the feeling that, okay, they may be concerned, but there is not very much they will do if things go wrong.
		And so just what we, I think, what we are getting seems to be just lip service.
		And it's not just about Hong Kong.
		It's over human rights in general.
		Because it seems President Clinton is now more interested in trade than in human rights.
		But because there are many Americans who still care about human rights, and that's why he and his officials have to pay lip service to it.
		But deep down inside, they're just after money.
unidentified		Well, okay, we will come back to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How wrong do you think it is likely to go?
		I mean, what is your real sense now of what China is going to do?
		There is a change there now in leadership.
		Is there any change in the political direction of China?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		You mean in Peking, in the leadership after the death of Deng Xiaoping?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Of course, I mean, I think the situation must be quite tense, and there is, of course, fierce power struggle going on.
		But I guess in the short term, and I'm talking about the next few weeks and months, there may not be any drastic change.
		There is a very important Communist Party Congress coming up in October.
		And I think, but we are not going to see any big change.
		Otherwise, I mean, it could be very, very devastating.
		The feeling is that there won't be any abrupt changes in the coming months.
		But who knows what will happen?
		Whether the person that has been hand-picked by Deng Xiaoping to succeed him, President Zhang Jimin, who knows whether he is able to consolidate his power base or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your sense of this new leader?
		Is he hand-picked, is he not?
		And is he not likely to continue policies exactly as they were?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's very uncertain.
		I mean, he used to be a bit of a hotliner, but during Deng's funeral, he gave a speech which talked about reform and so on.
		And I think people are just waiting and see.
		Not so much of what he stands for, but whether he is able to maintain his grip on power.
		That is the first thing.
		And what does he have to do to win over the various factions?
		I read in a paper last week that the CIA recently had a report saying there are about six or seven factions which are fighting against him.
		So I don't know whether that report is correct or not, but it is of course correct to say there's constant power struggle going on.
		And heaven knows whether he will ultimately triumph.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are these pro-democracy factions that are opposed to him?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		You've got to be kidding.
		Talking about reports, I mean, there was another report by the State Department in your country recently about human rights in many countries.
		And one report was on China.
		And that report said very clearly that the Chinese government have succeeded in cracking down on the entire pro-democracy movement in the whole country.
		And hence, there is not a single dissident at liberty.
		There has either been killed or imprisoned or are in exile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my God.
		Hong Kong is full of lots of dissidents, lots of people who enjoy freedom and have had freedom for a very long time now.
		And I think they will not be easily conquered.
		Emily, what is your feeling?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Hong Kong people feel very powerless and fatalistic because after all, most of our parents fled from China.
		And mine came in 1948, the year before the Communists came to power.
		And then the other half of the population are people like myself, children of such refugees.
		So they are very, very scared of the communists.
		And before the might of the communist giant, they feel very, very defenseless and powerless.
		And so I think people here are now getting more and more quiet because they don't want to say things and then become marked enemies.
		And because the Chinese have a habit of settling accounts with its enemies, even if it's a long time later, people are very scared.
		So people, you know, if you come to Hong Kong, you don't see many people demonstrating, speaking out, although deep down inside, they are very frustrated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But still they are used, even in one generation, Emily, they are used to freedom now.
		And if China comes in with an iron hand, there's going to be big trouble, and potentially much bigger trouble than there ever was in Tiananmen Square.
		Or do you think the Chinese will wait a period of time and slowly bring on the iron hand?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they have brought on the iron hand already by dismantling the legislature and throwing all of us out of work in July.
		So that is something quite drastic.
		But of course, sadly, many countries all over the world, including Britain and the United States, have been quite restrained in criticizing China.
		But this is a very big thing, to throw a legitimately constituted legislature out of work and then to impose an appointed legislature.
		And also the recent decision to roll back on our civil liberties laws, well, these things are quite drastic.
		I mean, what are you talking about?
		You sound as if they haven't done anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		I'm very well aware of what they've done.
		But when it really gets down to control of the individual, and of course in China, they do that.
		Americans should know if you go to China, they watch you every single minute.
		And to get to that level of control in Hong Kong, with, as you point out, 6 million people, would take a very large force.
		Do you think that will happen quickly, or will that be a slow evolution?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly hope things will not get that extreme, but who knows?
		But what we're doing now is to stop that from happening.
		I think the people are quite happy to see the end of colonial rule.
		What we want is then to have the right to elect our government under Deng Xiaoping's concept of one country, two systems.
		We're not trying to overthrow the communists.
		We're just saying that please give us democracy, give us freedom, we will continue to prosper.
		And that would be in the interest of Hong Kong as well as in the interest of China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems like China, yes, has two policies.
		In China, there is so much commerce.
		There is so much commerce going on, but politically, it is still all closed up the way it always was.
		And I'm afraid that's exactly what they're going to try to do to Hong Kong.
		But I don't think it's going to work in Hong Kong, because the people of Hong Kong have had freedom for some time now, and there is an expression in America about once they've been to Paris, how are you going to keep them down on the farm?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope you're right.
		But sadly, it seems the people do not, they are not yet responding in a very robust manner to all of China's threats and intimidations.
		And in fact, we get people saying, well, okay, let us try to adjust.
		But I think when the crackdown comes, when the repression comes, I guess people will rise up.
		If you cast your mind back to 1989, before and after the Tiananmen Square massacre, one million Hong Kong people took to the streets to demonstrate in a very peaceful way.
		So they have stood up in the past for the Chinese people, and they must stand up for themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nobody wants to see another Tiananmen Square or anything like it, but I can imagine such a thing occurring.
		And what about you personally, Emily?
		You're speaking out.
		Here you are, talking to all of the West about what's going on there.
		You said it yourself.
		The Chinese do not forget, and even if it's a long time, they settle accounts.
		What about your account, Emily?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I'm sure I'm one of those marked people, but the fact that I'm concerned about my future has not stopped me from speaking out, whether it's on the phone or physically traveling to America and to the West and so on.
		But of course, I know there is a price that I have to pay ultimately, and there could be dire consequences.
		It is a very sorry saga, Art, but I mean, I just go on doing the best I can while I'm still at liberty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly what liberties will disappear in July?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if nothing else between now and then changes, when the turnover comes, what liberties will be gone?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, because the National People's Congress has decided to take back some of our rights about the freedom to associate, the freedom to assemble, the freedom to protest, so those rights would be very heavily circumscribed come July 1st.
		And this illegal provisional legislature will actually operate in the next few months to make new laws regarding those freedoms.
		So I think those are the first freedoms that will go.
		And also the freedom of the press, which is very dear to our hearts, is going quite fast.
		There is a lot of self-censorship here already.
		And last year, Chinese government officials came out and told the press that of course they will be free after 1997, but they can report but cannot advocate and they should not criticize the Chinese leaders.
		So I think they put down so many markers and people are, I mean some of them are being intimidated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So report the news but no more editorial policy.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Something like that I guess.
		I mean how do you draw the line between reporting and advocacy?
		I mean the mind boggles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how do you squash assembly in a place like Hong Kong which is nothing but one giant assembly of the people anyhow?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well they say that in future if you want to have an assembly you go to the Commissioner of Police to get his permission.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Yeah well that actually don't laugh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		We only changed that very recently when the British of very late suddenly found a conscience and said that oh we should not have such harsh laws.
		So they changed them and the Chinese got very very upset saying you have had all these harsh laws all these years.
		Now you're about to leave and you change them, you give the people more democracy?
		No way.
		We're going to bring them back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right Emily hold on we are at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be back in several minutes and speak with you further.
		Emily Lau, who is a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council for just a little while longer, will be back in a moment and we will get the phones open.
		We will let you talk to her.
		She's in Hong Kong and I'm in the high desert.
unidentified		You're listening to Artfell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from February
		25, 1997.
		Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
		You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest from Hong Kong is Emily Lau, an endangered species member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council for just a little while longer.
unidentified		sad music Thank you.
unidentified		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Hong Kong and Emily Lau.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, welcome back.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Ot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, on the internet, Hong Kong is every place.
		You can see people and talk to people in Hong Kong every day on the internet, but not so much in China.
		What do you think that China will do with regard to Internet access for Hong Kong residents?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly hope China will do nothing.
		And I don't think we have got any clear indication on whether China will exert very tight control.
		Of course, if that should happen, people would not be too surprised.
		But we certainly hope that China will exercise self-restraint and not to interfere with such basic rights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, if things go wrong, if things go terribly wrong, would it be more effective for you to continue your work or try to continue your work from Hong Kong, or would it be better for you to be out?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I think this is the case with any dissident.
		Once you leave your country, your effectiveness will decrease or may even evaporate.
		So I think the best thing really is to stay in the place and fight.
		And then of course you may be locked up.
		But even then, I mean look at President Nelson Mandela of South Africa having been locked up for 26, 27 years.
		But if he had been away, it would have been completely different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is true.
		That's a big price to pay, Emily.
		Have you come to terms with yourself that you are prepared to pay that price?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have said quite often that I do not choose, I do not want to be locked up, but neither will I shut up.
		Because those who don't want to be locked up will say, okay, fine, I will change my tune or I will sing China's praise and then hope for the best.
		But I'm not going to do that.
		So if I continue to speak out, like talking to you now and then through you to the American people, there may be consequences.
		I know that.
		And if the consequence should come, then I mean, I understand it.
		Not that I would like it, but I know that that may happen to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		In Washington right now, there is, as you know, much trouble with scandals involving money from your part of the world that was apparently given to the Clinton administration's reelection effort.
		That is going to make it even doubly or more difficult for the Clinton administration to have any voice at all about Hong Kong.
		Would you agree?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not so sure.
		I think, well, of course, I think we would like to see what kind of things these investigations would come up with.
		But maybe President Clinton would like to show that he is really quite independent in terms of pursuing these foreign policy objectives and to show that he has not completely succumbed to the influence and pressure of people with money wherever, you know, from the world where they're from.
		So I don't necessarily think that now because of these investigations, which are of course very serious, that would completely undermine his ability to stand up and speak up for human rights in Asia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have the Times Magazine of London last month rated you as one of the world's most 100 powerful women.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If the Chinese take over Hong Kong and shut down the press, the freedom of association, assembly, and protest, where will your power base come from?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't really believe I'm one of the 100 most powerful women in the world.
		I don't believe that for one minute.
		If you come and look at me, you will see that I'm quite powerless in a sense that, as I said, before this communist giant, very few people in Hong Kong can look that powerful.
		But of course, my power base as an elected politician has to come from the people.
		And if the people don't want to stand up, then there is not very much power remaining me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's talk about that.
		You don't seem very hopeful that the people will stand up.
		Right now, as I listen to your voice in the first half hour of the interview, you sound somewhat discouraged about the people of Hong Kong.
		Is that unfair?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		And of course, I mean, for journalists, for people who've been in Hong Kong in the last few months and have seen our demonstrations, they find it very amazing that so few people bother to demonstrate.
		In many cases, the number of foreign journalists outnumber the demonstrators.
		And they have put this question to me time and time again.
		They say, where are the people?
		Where are the people?
		And so it's true that people just feel so, you know, they just feel that it is useless to take to the streets.
		They don't think we can change China.
		And also, of course, they feel quite comfortable right now.
		I mean, in Hong Kong, it's not as if we are all terribly intimidated yet, and the economy is not doing too badly.
		So the people feel they're okay.
		But if and when the crackdown comes, I guess people will want to rush out and show, you know, how they feel.
unidentified		Would you lead them if it comes to that?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not a question of me leading them.
		I think I would want to demonstrate with the people.
		And I have been demonstrating, but not too many of them bothered to come out with us, and that's why it is really sad.
		When I was in Washington, D.C. last week or two weeks ago, I was asked whether we in Hong Kong have ever heard of Belgrade, where the people demonstrated for 80, 90 days non-stop.
		And of course, Hong Kong is not Belgrade, but I think the Hong Kong people must learn that they have to stand up for their rights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, isn't it true, Emily, that sometimes you don't know what you have lost until it is gone?
		And that the current generation of young people in Hong Kong have never known anything but freedom.
		And so they may not know what they have lost until it is gone.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, if that's the case, it's very sad.
		And we have actually even a cruder expression.
		It's, your tears only come out when you see the coffin.
		I mean, that's terrible.
		And that's what we are doing, urging them not to wait until they see the coffin, but stand up now, because it is not that difficult to envisage losing our freedoms.
		All they have to do is look across the border, and they know what to expect.
		And sometimes I get a bit exasperated with the people saying, oh, well, there's not much we can do.
		I said, what do you mean?
		Come on, stand up and fight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do many Hong Kong residents regularly go across the border and experience what is in China, or is that not the case?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, many of them go.
		They have relatives and friends.
		Oh, any holiday or any time there are many people who come in and out of China.
		And people from China come to Hong Kong as well.
		So it's not as if they don't know.
		And also, of course, our future chief executive, Mr. Siege Tong, the one who will replace Governor Chris Patton, has said that he has a lot of admiration for Singapore.
		So he wants us to be like Singapore.
		Don't talk about politics.
		Just make money.
unidentified		Just make money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that a political crackdown, and there must be one in all of these areas, will stifle the ability to make money?
		I mean, there will be an effect.
		If they really begin to crack down in all of these areas, the money will be squeezed, won't it?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you hear what some business people say, you may not think like that 100%.
		Because some of the business people seem to be prepared for some kind of crackdown.
		And then they say they also operate in some very repressive countries, including Burma and other places.
		So they say, big deal.
		I mean, if there is money to be made, I'll go there and forget about human rights.
		But what they do not want, of course, is uncertainty or where the society is very chaotic.
		That's what they don't want.
		But crackdown, so long as it is contained, they think they can still make money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What will happen to the free market?
		Now, Americans have heard it is very expensive to rent an apartment, for example, in Hong Kong.
		Very, very expensive.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		It is true.
		And some people are quite surprised because some expect that, you know, with 1997 coming, the economy and everything will experience a downturn.
		But instead, I mean, the economy is still buoyant and the stock market is going through the roof.
		And of course, we are seeing Chinese money coming in, taking part to prop up the economy.
		But we also see some people feeling quite confident because 97 is here already.
		If the thing hasn't gone down the tube, maybe it won't.
		And so they all come in and buy.
		And hence, you see this feeling of euphoria.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think will occur with investment after the takeover?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly hope nothing drastic will take place and scare the investors, whether it's local or foreign.
		And I think on this we are quite united, whether we are members of the pro-democracy lobby or not.
		I think we want Hong Kong to stay as an international business and financial center and remain very attractive to local and foreign investors.
		And I don't think the Chinese want to tamper with that.
		So on the economic side, the things look more positive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If there is a crackdown on the press freedom of association and assembly and protests, surely these short days before the takeover, people like you must be preparing for alternative means of distribution of information and so forth just in case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you doing any work like that now?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, not really.
		If you say we are going to publish something underground and then distribute it, then I think we will get arrested even more quickly.
		And then of course we want to use the Internet, but if they want to block it, like they did in China, they can do that as well.
		And it's not easy for us to have our own radio station to broadcast to the people.
		So I think the means are quite limited art.
		And what we are working towards is not so much of looking at these alternative means, but rather putting pressure on them to say, you don't do it.
		Let us keep our freedoms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Internet is a very powerful tool.
		What can you tell me about China?
		I see a few Chinese on the Internet, it seems like sometimes, but very, very few.
		Have they completely shut it down or what's going on now?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they have to route it through some kind of approved service provider or something like that.
		And they can block sites that they think are unacceptable.
		So over there is very much controlled.
		But nevertheless, I think it provides a lot of opportunities.
		But here in Hong Kong, we are still quite free.
		And so I just hope that the Chinese government can be encouraged into giving the people a bit more of a free hand.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have a link now to your website from Hong Kong, directly from Hong Kong, the English language portion of your website.
		People can go to my website now and see that.
		I hope that will remain true after July.
		What are you putting on your website to tell the world?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, all sorts of things.
		My life history and also the speeches I've made, the articles I've written, and interviews, and so on.
		It's very, very interesting, and I certainly would urge people to spend some time to look at it, and also please send me your comments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What is going to happen to the infrastructure in a Hong Kong?
		Read police, for example.
		What will happen there?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, ostensibly, we are told that everything will not change.
		But of course, I mean, the leader will change.
		And hence the policy may change.
		So if they are really going to crack down on their political enemies, then surely they will use the police, they will use the Commission against Corruption, they will use all these law enforcement agencies to go after us.
		So that is the concern.
		And so it is mainly a question of political freedom.
		With the other things, I think they may be quite relaxed.
		I mean, they want to make money.
		Everybody wants to get rich.
		But it's just that they cannot stand criticisms.
		So those who dare to dissent may get into trouble.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if a newspaper writes an editorial that is anti-Chinese, the police could be ordered to go in and close down a newspaper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the Hong Kong police would just simply take those orders and do it?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		That is the short answer.
		Because in the past, they have worked under British colonial rule.
		In future, they will work under Chinese rule.
		And many of them would tell you that they carry out orders.
		If their leaders should decide to make such orders, I would not be surprised that some of them would be quite willing to carry them out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very sad.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		That's also a fact, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, many people in America ask such sad questions about their own military, and it is very sad to contemplate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think they might carry enough of them, would carry out the orders that the Chinese would not have to bring in their own police or even their military to proceed with this crackdown?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		No, I think that's possible.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And anyway, I was arrested last December.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		By the Hong Kong police.
unidentified		For Hong Kong.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		It's not as if we're just talking about something in the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, for arrested?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Right now, it's still British rule.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Arrested for what, Emily?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		For demonstrating.
		And that was, we're talking about the 11th of December last year.
		And on that day, Mr. C.H. Tong was so-called selected as the chief executive of the future Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.
		And the ceremony took place at the convention center in Hong Kong, in Wan Chai.
		and of course we never for one minute believe it was a real selection or election.
		The Chinese appointed 400 people and called out the selection committee and they were supposed to select the chief executive and there were supposed to be three candidates but everybody knew from day one that you know Tong is the man and even when the American Assistant Secretary of State Winston Lord when he came to Hong Kong at the end of last year he only asked to see Mr. Tong.
		So anyway we were quite fed up with the farce, with the charade.
		So we held a demonstration there to coincide with the selection process.
		And the police, and there were very few of us because especially it's a work day.
		Hong Kong people don't demonstrate on work day.
		They only demonstrate on holidays.
		So there were about only 30, 40 odd of us, very small number.
		There were over 500 policemen there to deal with us.
		I mean it was really pathetic.
		And then of course we refused to go into this so-called designated area to demonstrate.
		We wanted to demonstrate near the entrance so that when these people arrived to cast their vote they could see us.
		The police said no you can't.
		So we decided to just march around the block because the whole place was, you know, there were barriers everywhere.
		So we were marching and suddenly we saw a park.
		There was no barrier.
		So we tried to cross the road to go over near the entrance and all these policemen descended upon us and tried to push us back.
		So what did we do?
		We sat on the road.
		We actually lay on the road and they say, if you don't get up, you're breaking the law.
		We're going to arrest you.
		And we refused to get up.
		We lay there for half an hour.
		They came, lifted us up one by one, put us in the police truck, drove us back to the Wan Chai police station and kept us there for over four hours.
		So that happened in December.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After the takeover, of course, the consequences of a demonstration of that sort could be much worse.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're right.
		Because we were not prosecuted.
		In the end, the government decided not to press any charges.
		And so that was the end of the matter.
		And in fact, a journalist came to interview me a few weeks ago, and he said he had just been to see a banker.
		The banker told him that he was very pleased that I was arrested.
		Why?
		Because he said, or he was, of course, very optimistic, very confident about the future, the banker.
		But he somehow feels that people like me would be arrested again in future by the Chinese.
		But now, because the British have set a precedent of arresting me, so in future, when I'm arrested by the Chinese, nobody, including people like you, Art, should be surprised or concerned.
unidentified		You should then shrug your shoulders and say, oh, that poor girl again.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Chris Patton arrested her in 96.
		Oh, now the communists are arresting her in 97 or 98.
		Oh, big deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No big surprise, huh?
		The American people have been said to have been very lazy, lazy, about their democracy.
		And it sounds to me like you're saying the people of Hong Kong are lazy about their democracy.
		True?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		You are absolutely right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the American people then should watch very closely what happens in Hong Kong in the coming months.
		All right, Emily, we are going to open the phone lines and let you talk to the American people in the next hour if you can stay.
		All right?
		All right, good.
		Emily Lau is my guest, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council.
		If it can happen there, it can happen here.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
		The End for worldwide humiliation.
		The Greatest World is a production of the United States.
		The Greatest World is a production of the United States.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Ark Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight's program originally aired February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You may never have been there, but Hong Kong is one of the most beautiful places in the entire world.
		It's free, it's fun, it's rich, it's capitalist, and it's about to change.
		My guest is Emily Lau.
		She's in Hong Kong.
		As a matter of fact, she is a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council.
		She is a spokesperson for a pro-democracy group there called Frontier.
		She's probably going to be in trouble when the takeover occurs in July.
		We'll hope not, but she probably is going to be.
		The Chinese people so far, according to Emily, don't seem to be exactly rallying behind the cause.
		They're scared.
		Or they're lazy.
		Or we're not sure what the situation is.
		They're probably unsure of what's going to occur.
		If you have any questions for Emily Lau, now would be a good time.
		We're going to devote this hour as much as possible to your questions.
		Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, back in a moment.
unidentified		Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, back in a moment.
		Coast to Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device users, specifically for the iPhone and Android platforms.
		Now you'll be able to connect to most of the offerings of the Coast website on your phone in a quick and streamlined fashion.
		And if you're a Coast Insider, you'll have our great subscriber features right on your phone, including the ability to listen to live programs and screen previous shows.
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		Simply visit CoastToCoastAM.com on your iPhone or Android browser.
		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell Back down to the other side of the world and Hong Kong and Emily Lau, again a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council due to be disbanded by law, the new law, in July when Hong Kong goes back to China.
		And the freedom of the press, freedom of association, assembly protest will all at that time probably end.
		This was found out this last Sunday when China's legislator voted to dilute the Hong Kong civil liberties laws.
		And so we're talking about the return.
		Emily, in the United States, the average couple, I believe, has 2.3 children per couple.
		In China, there is a one child per family law.
		Will that law then apply to Hong Kong?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
		I don't think there are any plans to do that.
		But in fact, Hong Kong people do not like to have children, really.
		The birth rate is the lowest in the world.
		And Art, if I may just say one thing, is that I don't think that it is right yet to say that on July 1st we will lose all our freedoms.
		It may happen, but I think we will not lose everything from day one.
		Our concern is that there could be all kinds of restrictions.
		But I don't think, even I, don't think we're going to be like China immediately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is another old saying here about a frog in boiling water.
		I'm sure you may have heard that one.
		And I wonder if they are going to make the people of Hong Kong like the frogs in boiling water and slowly, slowly, slowly remove bit by bit the freedoms that they don't want you to have.
unidentified		Is that what is realistic?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Yes, maybe not too slowly, but not necessarily in one go on day one.
		That's the point I'm making.
		And of course, if we do nothing, we will just encourage them, invite them to take away more of our freedoms.
		So I think it also depends on how we, the people, react or fail to react.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, Emily, if there is a very strong reaction, then you're inviting another Tiananmen Square.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		That's also true, yes.
		But even if it's strong, the strongest that we've seen in Hong Kong is in 89, when we had a million people taking to the streets in a very peaceful manner.
		Not one single bottle was broken.
		So, I mean, would you regard that as strong?
		Peaceful?
		I mean, people out in full force?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, strong in numbers, Emily.
unidentified		Yeah.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, yes, people have said that.
		They say, yeah, if you all come out, you will get the crackdown even more quickly.
		But, I mean, so we're damned if we do and damn if we don't.
		But I think we must stand up.
		And I think China listens.
		Even I, cynical, Emily Lau, said China does listen, not to me, but China listens to the rich and the powerful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is true.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Your government, your country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it the best hope, Emily, that economics, you know, the Americans can say what they will, but China will do as she wants to.
		And we hope that economics will eventually begin to change the political situation.
		First comes economic change, then comes political change.
		It may be that Hong Kong will help political change in China.
		Could that be true?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not so sure.
		If we are going to lose our political freedoms, how on earth can we help the rest of China?
		But on the other hand, if we can succeed in persuading the communist government to allow Western-style democracy to flourish in Hong Kong in some shape or form and to allow us to enjoy some of our basic freedoms, I think that would be a step forward.
		That would be unprecedented in communist history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, would they keep a separation?
		In other words, the Chinese are very worried about infection of the ideas of democracy and political freedom.
		And are they worried that there will be a big infection from Hong Kong into China?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, obviously they are.
		I mean, if you were sitting in Peking, you would probably be concerned as well.
		But infection being one thing.
		But even without the infection, I don't think they would like to see a free and democratic Hong Kong.
		But nevertheless, of course, they are saying that if we allow democracy to flourish in Hong Kong, it could spread like cancer to the rest of the Chinese nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And so that is their concern, obviously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's go to some phone calls.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Hi, This is Liz in Houston, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Houston, Texas, okay.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		Ms. Lau, I pray that your voice will never be silenced.
		I want to say, I know that many Americans have made a very good living working in Hong Kong.
		Have you any sense of what their reaction will be?
		Will they turn tail and run, or will they stay and fight with you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question then is the Americans in Hong Kong, Emily, who have made very good money, many foreigners, many Americans, do you believe they will stay and not worry, or will they flee?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am not very sure because the Americans have been quite quiet.
		The American business people, some of whom have been quite outspoken in saying that it's important to concentrate on doing business with China.
		And I have not really heard that many Americans speaking out in favor of human rights and democracy in Hong Kong.
		It's disappointing.
		So I don't know.
		I mean, if things go horribly wrong, then of course they would flee.
		But I just am not very sure that the ones who are in Hong Kong are really that determined to fight with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, it's very hard to know which is the best course for you, to organize large and peaceful demonstrations that may be taken the wrong way by China, or to quietly wait and see what happens and only begin protest if there are big crackdowns.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to know which is the right or best course.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I'm not going to wait.
		There's no way.
		I mean, I was in New Zealand yesterday and someone asked me, they said, what do you want us to do when you are arrested?
		I said, for heaven's sake, don't wait until I'm arrested before you do something.
		So don't wait.
		And I mean, we can organize demonstrations, but people will have to come out spontaneously.
		And I certainly think they should come out now.
		I wouldn't tell people, do not come out.
		We don't want to provoke China.
		Of course we don't want to provoke China, but we want to show China we care.
		And if I can organize a demonstration of a million people tomorrow, I'll do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about the Hong Kong press now?
		Very free.
		When I was there, it is no doubt now beginning to chill a little bit.
		How much change have you noticed in the press there?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, quite a bit, quite a bit.
		And we call it self-censorship.
		But of course, this phenomenon is not just restricted to the press.
		It's, you see, there throughout the community.
		The business people, the professionals, the academics, the religious.
		I mean, people just don't say anything critical of China in public because they know of horrible consequences.
		So the press, which is very important to us in a free society, is sadly becoming more and more tame.
		I mean, I can read ten newspapers in less than half an hour because there is not very much to be read.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you maintain contacts with any remaining dissidents in China?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't have contact with anybody in China, really.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And as I said, the dissidents are all either behind bars or dead or in exile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you are on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
		Hello.
unidentified		Thank you, Mr. Bell, for this opportunity.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		This is Robert in the San Joaquin Valley of California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Mrs. Lau, it's an honor to speak to you.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Robert.
unidentified		I have visited Hong Kong through the years.
		The first time I was in Hong Kong was 1955.
		I find the people charming, gracious, and I know I speak for millions of Americans.
		We feel our hands are tied.
		We wish to help.
		Can you help us by telling us what can we do to help?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Robert.
		I think for a start, if you can write to your president or write to your member of Congress and tell him or her, you know, whoever it is, to do something to help us, to send a message to China, to tell China to leave us alone.
		I think if your politicians start getting millions of letters in their mailbag, I think they will sit up and listen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only leverage, Emily, that we have is trade.
		Trade.
		We could cut off trade or limit trade with China and link it to human rights.
		But I think the sense of the American government is that no matter what we would do with trade, China would not move, would not budge.
		And many people feel that is why we do not press the human rights issues.
		Other Americans believe that it is because there has been money flowing to our current administration to encourage trade and discourage words about human rights.
		What do you believe?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, obviously, the business people, whether they are in America or outside America, have lots of money to spend on lobbying.
		And this business of lobbying in Washington is quite extraordinary, I think.
		You people ought to look at that and do something about it.
		But I think there is a lot of pressure brought on the government.
		There's no doubt about it.
		But I still think that it is important that we get the message home to the politicians that they should also respect human rights and urge the Chinese to respect human rights.
		And I do not necessarily think that human rights and trade are mutually exclusive.
		Because if you tell the American businessman that they have to pay a very high price for human rights elsewhere, that means they cannot trade, they're not going to like it and do we really have to say it to them say you must give up you must make sacrifices so that we can get human rights respected in a foreign land do we have to do that well all right Emily if if the situation becomes bad should we treat Hong
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hong and China together as we treated Africa until there is a change?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I think if the situation is bad, and by bad, I mean, and I think you mean very, very gross violations, then I think all bets are off.
		Of course, we have to use whatever weapons at our disposal to do.
		I mean, I'm not saying that don't touch it ever.
		No, I think if the situation is bad, then we must do everything we can.
		But I think in the meantime, what the politicians have not done, and which they can do while still maintaining trade, is to give equal priority to human rights.
		The reason China doesn't take America or others seriously is that, you know, if they go into a meeting with China behind closed doors, they spend the vast majority of the time talking about trade and other things, and maybe spend one minute on human rights.
		Come out of the door, face the camera, TV and radio and so on.
		And they say, oh, we raised the issue of human rights with China, and China knowing full well that they only spend one minute on it, and they laugh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Emily, your human rights in Hong Kong may be held prisoner by the situation in Korea right now, because I think when we talk to the Chinese, we're trying to have a dialogue about Korea more than we are about the human rights of the people of Hong Kong.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, we always know that Hong Kong is very small, and of course, we don't mean very much to most people, let alone to America.
		And that's something we are very aware of.
		We are quite insignificant.
		But nevertheless, we feel that we are also a member of the international community, and many people who've been to Hong Kong like Hong Kong.
		They are friends of Hong Kong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And now we are reaching out to these friends saying that, hey, we may be in trouble in future.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And if that should happen, please do something to help us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Emily Lau.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Art Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'm Little Rock, Arkansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Little Rock, Arkansas.
		Yes, sir.
		near the president.
unidentified		Hey, don't get me started on that.
		Mr. Lau, it's a pleasure to talk to you.
		And as a longtime resident of Little Rock, Arkansas, I'd like to, I have no questions, but I've had some observations that the word of Bill Clinton is totally unreliable.
		His administration word is totally unreliable.
		The people of Hong Kong, I'm sorry to say, will only get lip serviced, in my opinion.
		When push comes to shove, you're not going to have anything from Bill Clinton.
		In the recent military exercises with mainland China on Taiwan.
		Yes, sir, on Taiwan.
		You know, we had a couple cruisers that maybe went through the straits, but the carriers were on the other side.
		And it was only a show, you know, tit-for-tat or something.
		We're going to show it.
		But when Communist China, mainland China, I don't know the right terms, when they come in, you're going to get some words.
		And I don't know anything about Mrs. Albright, but she is an administrative appointment, probably a fine woman, probably has deep convictions, but she will do what the administration wants.
		And right now, all they're going to do is say, well, we abhor this and we abhor that.
		And if you would go back to 1992, when President Clinton said, we are going to reduce the deficits or the trade deficits between Japan and the United States, it never happened.
		A year ago, two years ago, I believe in our local newspaper just today or yesterday, our trade deficit with China was $30 or $30.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$3 billion.
unidentified		$3 billion.
unidentified		A year later, it was like $3 billion more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		The man makes an interesting point.
		And let me ask you this, Emily.
		Traditionally, in United States politics, conservative administrations have pushed human rights as an issue and linked it to trade with countries.
		Now, surprisingly, this administration, a Democrat administration, you would expect very strong words, even very strong actions, and this administration is weaker than any in my memory.
		Do you agree with that?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know about weaker than many, but it's definitely quite weak.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		But obviously, we know the reasons because of the, you know, the powerful business lobby or maybe because of all the donations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know of any donations that have gone from communist sources and been laundered perhaps through other nations and gone to Washington?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I don't have any direct information.
		Whatever I do know is what I read in the papers, and I think they are investigating it, and I hope to get the results of those investigations soon.
		I mean, I think the American people are also quite eager to find out what the hell is going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What the hell is going on?
		Yes, you're right, Emily.
		I mean, do you have quiet suspicions that some money of that sort may have gone to Washington?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, because there are all these reports, so obviously people are suspicious.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		But I think donations aside, there's also the question of all these lobbyists, all these people who go in and out the revolving door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're the ones that carry the donations.
		Emily, hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
		I hear the drums echoing tonight.
		She is only whispers of some quiet conversation.
		She's coming in for a bloody night.
		The moonlit wings reflect the stars that guide me towards salvation.
		I stopped an old man.
		You're listening to Arch Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest from Hong Kong is Emily Lau.
		She's a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, a spokesperson for the pro-democracy movement, such as it is in Hong Kong right now.
		And she'll be right back.
unidentified		She's a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
		Music Back now to Hong Kong and Emily Lau.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, do you feel somewhat betrayed by the people of Hong Kong that there has not been more concern, more demonstration, more rallying around people like yourself?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, I would like to see more people getting, you know, being ready to stand up to defend their own rights.
		That's true.
		But if you talk about betrayal, then I think I feel far more betrayed by the British government.
		After all, they've run Hong Kong for more than one and a half centuries, and they have not seen fit to give us self-determination or democracy, and now they are just delivering us to communist rule.
		I think that's disgraceful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and so that is a betrayal.
		I'm sure that what about the rest of the Legislative Council?
		Do they generally share your feelings, or is there a whole spectrum of differing political views?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, there are those who agree with China, and they are going to sit on the illegal provisional legislature.
		But those of us in the pro-democracy camp who have nothing to do with it.
		So, yes, we have people with different views in Hong Kong.
		But on the two, only two occasions in which the Hong Kong people had the right to elect their representatives, they have chosen with very wide margin people from the pro-democracy lobby.
		And that is very clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm down in Austin, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Austin, Texas.
unidentified		I do have a question for Emily.
		But real quick, Art, I've got to say, you have become huge.
		You're just absolutely everywhere.
		I know I'm personally responsible for a good-based fan club of yours here in Austin, Texas.
		Thank you.
		And I never have taken the opportunity to commend you for what you're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		It's real news.
		And I and everybody else appreciates it.
		For Emily, I'm real interested to know what you feel.
		I know that Hong Kong is a very vibrant artistic type of town.
		And like the movie business is really starting to boom.
		The art of making movies, of filmmaking.
		And I wonder how you feel that'll be affected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a good question.
		In fact, when I was in Hong Kong, I watched them making a movie.
		And in the movie, there was a demonstration going on, a very political movie.
		And so it is a good question.
		What do you think will happen to the arts in Hong Kong?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think anything to do with free thinking, the Chinese will want to control.
		And I mean, for many years, we do not see many political movies in Hong Kong.
		The artists have always, I mean, according to me, I mean, I think they always have been quite self-censoring.
		And not too long ago, they even took their films to the local new China news agency, which is the de facto Chinese embassy, and asked them to edit.
		So I don't really see much hope of the artists being able, being given all the freedom for them to be creative after 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think will happen to tourism?
		Tourism is very important to Hong Kong, Emily.
		I was one of those tourists, and there have been so many millions coming to Hong Kong, not so many into China.
		After the takeover, what do you think will happen to the tourist dollars?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly hope that the tourists will continue to come to Hong Kong, and in fact, many of them now come to Hong Kong as well as to China.
		And from that point of view, I don't think the Chinese communists would want to scare away the tourists or to discourage them from coming.
		And if they still find Hong Kong an attractive place, I guess they will keep coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but Emily, when one moves From Hong Kong into Communist China at the border checkpoints and elsewhere, the people are not really so friendly, is what I saw.
		No smiles, very sour, very unhappy-looking people.
		And I would cry for Hong Kong if it became like that.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would cry too, I can tell you.
		And we are, of course, very different from mainland China.
		And I hope that when the tourists continue to come after the takeover, they will find that we are still different.
		And that is exactly what I'm trying to do.
		What we are trying to do is to preserve all these good things about Hong Kong, to get rid of colonial rule, to try to have autonomy, to preserve our freedoms.
		We hope still to be very different from the rest of China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope that is so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		And I'm in Gardena, California.
unidentified		And good afternoon, Emily.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hello.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Good afternoon.
unidentified		I was wondering about the income tax situation.
		Now, because it will probably be Beijing, or Peking, that will be in control, and because mainland China is such a huge country in the infrastructure and everything else, has there been any comments about how the income tax will be affected in respect of Hong Kong?
		It will lower their level or whatever?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What will happen to taxation, do you feel, Emily, in Hong Kong?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if the Chinese are true to their words, they say they will allow us to have autonomy.
		And our current system, under British colonial rule, would more or less remain intact because I think the taxation, the very low tax that we have and all that, seem to have quite a wide popular support.
		And I hope that the Chinese will not come in and dismantle it.
		But having said that, of course, I am a bit concerned that China may have her eyes on Hong Kong's money.
		And somehow our officials in future may even volunteer to donate Hong Kong's money to China.
		I mean, under the joint declaration and the basic law, we don't have to pay taxes to the central government.
		But if you have people who are in charge here who want to ingratiate themselves with Peking whenever there are floods or natural disaster, or they may even want to use Hong Kong people's money to buy Chinese bonds, this is what I'm concerned about.
		But what the Chinese have told us is we can keep our current economic system, and we don't have to follow that of China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shenzhen province, the economic province near Hong Kong, when you enter Shenzhen, it is a little bit different than the rest of China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How will they treat Hong Kong like Shenzhen, do you think?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I hope not.
		I mean, Hong Kong is very different from Shenzhen, although we are right next to each other.
		Shenzhen is a special economic zone which may be a bit freer than the rest of China, but it is still a million years away from Hong Kong.
		We don't want to be like Shenzhen, and I certainly hope the Chinese leaders will not lump the two of us together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about freedom of travel between Hong Kong, Shenzhen, then the rest of China?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I think especially freedom of the Chinese people to come to Hong Kong.
		Hong Kong is a very small place.
		As I said, there are now over 6 million of us in an area of about 400 square miles.
		And if they want to kill Hong Kong, the easiest thing is to open the border.
		And we will have 20 million people in a few days.
		And we are finished.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		So I think the Chinese understand that.
		I hope they do.
		But they have to maintain control.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you think they will not do that?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Will not do what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Open the borders.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I think they will not.
		Because then if they do it, I mean, they are not that crazy.
		I mean, if they really want to kill Hong Kong, of course, they open the borders.
		But what I'm afraid of is they will open the borders to their friends and relatives, you know?
		That's the trouble with China.
		Always people who know the right people will get things done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, exactly right.
		And Hong Kong will be overrun and diluted.
		It may be a strategy.
		It could be a very sad strategy.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Erie, Pennsylvania Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And it's very nice to talk to you, Emily.
		Hello.
		I always wanted to visit Hong Kong.
		I think it's the most beautiful harbor in the world.
		And I feel so bad for you and your country because I see nothing but gloom in your future.
		There is a man in this country.
		His name is Dr. Fred Schwartz.
		He headed up an organization called the Anti-Communist League.
		And he had a quote that always seems to ring true about communists.
		He said that you can always trust a communist to be a communist and nothing else.
		Communism is, to them, the only goal.
		They don't depart from it.
		They might look like they depart from it.
		They have a construct, and the construct is two steps forward, one step back.
		If they get caught being too aggressive in one step, then they'll move back, and then they'll be praised by the Western press.
		And then when everything has died down, they'll do the same thing all over again.
		And pretty soon, you're like what talked about earlier, you're the frog in the slowly but inexorable heating up of the water.
		And I'm afraid that what will happen to you is that all the wealth that you have generated through free enterprise will be sucked up.
		And it will not be sucked up immediately.
		And of course you're right.
		They're not stupid.
		They're not going to open up the borders because that would kill their golden goose that they're inheriting.
		And all I can say is, Emily, I wish you the best of luck.
		Unfortunately, in our country, we have a population that is not astute when it comes to even our own politics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		And I worry that what I hear from you, Emily, about the people in Hong Kong now is true, perhaps even more so of the people in my country.
		And that is that they do not appreciate the freedoms that they have and would not appreciate them until they were gone and would not do anything until they were gone.
		And by then, of course, it would be too late.
		So I'm very worried about that.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello, Art.
		This is Dave from the San Francisco area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Francisco, yes, sir.
unidentified		Home to the largest Chinese New Year's parade west of China there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		In any case, in listening to your conversation here, first of all, I say another fantastic interview, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And Emily?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
		We want to say, first of all, I want to extend a warm American greeting to you and all the Chinese people.
		And for the Chinese leaders that may be listening to this broadcast, we hope they make the right decisions with respect to keeping Hong Kong open for the rest of the world.
		Additionally, I was kind of surprised to hear you say that we should write our congressmen or take action of that nature.
		The reason why I say that is because hasn't outside interference in the past, outside criticism of China, not worked?
		That's just the nature of China itself.
		That really the most successful policy of dealing with China is one of working behind the scenes and reinforcing those attitudes that we feel are appropriate but not being open to the rest of the world.
		And finally, the last comment is, with respect, don't you feel that the Chinese leaders have looked to Taiwan, and I hate to break up Taiwan because I know there's a very adversarial relationship there, but Taiwan and Hong Kong and seen how prosperous these two communities are,
		and don't you think that in the long term, and based on what we're seeing in terms of products delivered to the U.S., there's a whole lot of stuff that toys, et cetera, that are being delivered from China.
		Don't you think that this is going to moderate the Chinese politics and toughness towards the rest of the world?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		No, I think you can only moderate or try to moderate China by persuasion, by pressure, and not just by trading and not mentioning human rights.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I think you can do both, as I said earlier.
unidentified		Trade.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I'm not against that.
		But always bring up human rights.
		Give it equal priority.
		I think that's important.
		And your other point about talking behind closed doors, not using high-profile tactics.
		I don't necessarily agree with that either.
		And how can you and I talk behind closed doors to the Chinese anyway?
		So because another caller asked me how the Americans can do to, what they can do to help.
		And you can't go and talk to the Peking government behind closed doors.
		But you can write to your congressman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, but what he was saying was that traditionally with China, forward public pressure has never worked.
		They do exactly what they want to do.
		That was the point that he was making.
		And he was saying then he was surprised you were asking us to write to our congresspeople because that would create very public pressure.
		But that is what you want, isn't it?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And I think the Chinese have responded to such pressures.
		They have released political dissidents.
		And we have a journalist in Hong Kong who has been locked up and been given 12 years for stealing state financial secrets when he just wrote an economic story.
		And what happened to him recently?
unidentified		He was released after being kept in jail for three years.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Why did they release him?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Of course it's a sob to public opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Public opinion.
		All right, well then I guess I should ask you, the interview is almost over, so I should ask you the same question they asked you in New Zealand, Emily.
		If you are arrested, what would you like those who support you to do?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope they will find someone influential and get the person to help.
		And I hope they would...
		If any of us in the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong should get into trouble, I hope people in America, people in the international community will, you know, write to their governments and also, if they can, start some kind of international campaign to help to get these people released.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In July, when you lose your job, what will you do?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, for a start, I have to find another job.
		Because this current job is my only job, which is quite exceptional because many of my colleagues have other jobs and other incomes.
		Politics is a part-time affair, but I have chosen to work full-time with one income.
		But I need to earn a living.
		So the first thing I will have to do is to find a job in July, and that may be a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nobody may want to touch you.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Or any other member of the pro-democracy lobby.
		So that is going to be our first problem, Art.
		We have a problem earning a living.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many other pro-democracy people are in the Hong Kong Legislative Council now?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about 26, 27.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		26 or 27.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And then our staff, all those people who have worked for us, worked with us, the volunteers, all these people could be tainted in the eyes of Peking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's true, and in the eyes of any potential employer in the private sector, if that's what it's going to be.
		All right.
		Maybe time for one last question.
		Our wildcard line, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
		My name is Dennis.
		Can you hear me?
		Yes, I hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Bradenton, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we don't have a lot of time, so go ahead and fire a question.
unidentified		I'll be quick.
		Glad to talk to you, Mrs. Lau, and we'll be looking at your situation with interest.
		I would like to know why is it that the Chinese people on the mainland don't throw off communism if they see what you have and what Taiwan has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Emily, why don't they throw off communism?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they tried.
		Look at what happened to them in 1989.
		Or, you know, I think the Chinese people have paid quite a hefty price.
		But I think it is ultimately really up to them to, you know, do what they like.
		In Hong Kong, we are not trying to overthrow the Chinese government.
		But I certainly hope the Chinese people will have the right to choose their government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emily, we're at the end of the interview, and I would like to do another one with you when we get very close to the takeover or when you feel it is necessary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So would you stay in touch with me?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I certainly would, and thank you very much for all your support and your concern.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good luck, Emily.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and good afternoon to you.
		That's Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council.
		And of course, that will cease to exist in July.
		I'm Art Bell.
		And that's sort of a momentous interview, I suspect.
		I hope you were listening.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
		We'll be right back.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		We just spent two hours with Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council from Hong Kong.
		She's a pro-democracy person, and I would like to say that I have great hopes and admiration for her, and I do.
		But there is a sense within me that tells me that Hong Kong is in big trouble.
		And believe me when I tell you, that's very sad.
		Those of you who have been to Hong Kong know what I'm talking about.
		For those of you who have never been there, I wouldn't know how to describe it to you.
		It's vibrant.
		It's alive.
		It's a happy place.
		And I fear that's about to end.
		At any rate, we'll get underway with open lines and anything you want to talk about for the remainder of the show this morning.
		in a moment.
unidentified		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		See, I think there are more secrets out there.
		I think Fannie, Freddie, the banks are probably in deeper trouble than we are led to believe.
		You have to either say these are just incompetent people or they're following an ideology or maybe even more nefarious, a game plan.
		That's what I think is happening.
		I don't think that they're stupid people.
		I think they have a different agenda than we do.
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		Simply visit CoastToCoastAM.com on your iPhone or Android browser.
		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
		I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
		I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by a mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
		Governments won't do that.
		The reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
		They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
		If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
		Absolutely not.
		You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
		And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
		So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell Let me catch you up now on a few things out there, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Number one is Philip Taylor Kramer, known as Taylor Kramer, and Kathy Kramer, who is his sister.
		You may recall, she was on the show.
		You may recall during the course of the program, I asked Kathy if she wanted to have Ed Dames go to work on her situation, and he said yes, he would.
		And he has.
		I am going to read you what I've received thus far from Ed Dames, and I only do this after having spoken with Kathy Kramer.
		The following came from Ed Dames and SciTech.
		Dear Art, Philip Taylor Kramer is dead.
		Foul play was involved.
		SciTech has a site description for the location of Kramer's badly decomposed body in the state of Montana.
		We are continuing our work as promised and will keep you and key federal, state, and local officials informed.
		Edward A. Dames, President.
		Signed.
		Now with trepidation, I spoke to Kathy Kramer and relayed this much information to her.
		On March 6th, Ed Dames will again be my guest along with Kathy Kramer.
		I told this when I read this to Kathy Kramer on the phone.
		She said, oh my God, he's got relatives in Montana.
		When we have Ed Dames back, he will have more of a description of the site where his body, badly decomposed, it says here, is located.
		So we will have them both on the program March 6th.
		Right now, you know as much as I know.
		On March 6th, there will be additional information.
		So the two of them together will be on that program.
		That's one.
		Two, tomorrow night we are going to have a very remarkable person here.
		He is John Shepard and he comes, he will be coming to us from Central Lake, Michigan.
		And for all his adult life, John Shepard has been trying to contact UFOs.
		And toward that end, Mr. Shepard has built the most remarkable, remarkable assemblage of electronic gear that has literally taken over his entire home.
		I've never seen anything like it in my life.
		I suggest between now and tomorrow night that you get up to my website and take a look at what he has assembled, what John Shepard has assembled.
		It is incredible.
		Absolutely mind-boggling.
		We've got an entire page, a series of photographs devoted to Project Stratt and what John Shepard is doing.
		So obviously, you know, there's going to be gridlock tomorrow night when he's on.
		So get up there beginning now and take a look at some of, in fact, archive some of these remarkable photographs.
unidentified		This man is amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's on my website now.
		It's John Shepard and Project Strat.
		Take a look.
		You won't believe it.
		It's at my website, www.artbell.com.
		www.artbell.com on another subject, Mel's Hole.
		Subject of the final hour Saturday morning and two hours of airtime last night.
		A remarkable story of a hole in Manastash, Washington, or in that area that seemingly has no bottom.
		And I'm sure a lot of you heard Mel last night.
		Some believed him, some didn't.
		I received a number of media inquiries today, newspapers and media in Washington, wishing to contact Mel.
		And I'm not going to give his number out without Mel's permission.
		So I have put a message on his answering machine, indicating there is a lot of media that would like to take a little trip out to Mel's property and confirm what we've been hearing.
		So I will not give that number out until I get that confirmation.
		He seemed to indicate last night that he would not mind doing something of that sort, so I would expect it would be in the affirmative, but I don't know that for certain.
		So I will await hearing from Mel, and at the moment I do, why I will turn his number over to the various media groups that want to go investigate this bottomless hole.
		Sort of in a rip, please, believe it or not, category.
		I can't guarantee you that what Mel said was true.
		I have no way of knowing.
		You literally heard just about everything, short of about five minutes of private conversation, that I've heard on the subject.
		So you either believe it or you don't.
		Now to another topic.
		Cloning.
		I am working on Friday night, Saturday morning, having a university professor here who is at the same time, check this out folks, a geneticist, a Jesuit priest, and a bioethicist, all at the same time.
		Can you imagine from a major U.S. university, somebody with all three disciplines combined, I've been trying to figure out exactly who would be right to approach this very incredible subject of cloning both what has been done and what you and I both damn well know has been done.
		I'm convinced that we are already cloning human beings, not publicly, but if it can be done, it is being done or will be done, one of the two.
		And I can think of nobody more qualified to comment than somebody with all of those disciplines as part of their formal education.
		The religious aspects, the scientific aspects, and the ethical aspects.
		So I'll be confirming that for you tomorrow.
		And if it comes, it will be Friday night, Saturday morning.
		In the meantime, in the news, Clinton acknowledging that he backed donor visits to the White House, letting the wheels come for the meals and the lodging, bed and board, I guess, huh?
		For donations.
		DuPont, mentally incapacitated but guilty, third-degree murder.
		And of course, in Atlanta, it would appear as though we have some sort of right-wing group, Christian group calling itself the Army of God, bombing things.
		A gay and lesbian nightclub.
		Gay and lesbian nightclub.
unidentified		Abortion clinic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Centennial Park bombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All possibly the work of the Army of God.
unidentified		Is that really our God?
unidentified		TNT for our Lord.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Megatons for our Savior.
		Not my kind of God, and I suspect not your kind of God, but somebody's kind of God.
		The God O bombs.
		Bombs for our Lord.
		Not very funny, really, huh?
		So, anything at this point that you would like to talk about, if you would like to talk about, and I know that a lot of you do, this entire cloning affair, this is not a trivial matter.
		In the last several years, I have done a number of programs on clones, on the cloning of human beings.
		I've known damn well that it was coming.
		And it's here.
		Surprise.
		Yesterday's science fiction, today's science fact.
		I am not surprised.
		I'm really not.
		I am surprised that they have acknowledged it publicly to have the ability to duplicate a human being.
		Do you understand what really can be done now?
		One of your cells, one of your cells, a little scraping of your skin, or perhaps more efficiently a drop of your blood, anything with your DNA sequence could create a new you.
		An exact you.
unidentified		A precise you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A precise John F. Kennedy.
unidentified		A precise Adolf Hitler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a new day.
		I think that it's slowly sinking in.
		This story is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger as the American people, the world in fact, begins to realize the implications of what is now possible.
unidentified		Boggles the mind.
unidentified		The creation of a super race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The possibility that we could create a being and everybody will say, well, we shouldn't do it.
		I hear them on the news all the time.
		We can do it, but why would we want to?
		Don't be silly.
		With genetic manipulation, it's going to be possible to create a human being, an identical you, with organs, pristine organs, lungs, hearts, livers, kidneys that are identical to the ones you have.
		And we can even create a being who has all of these pristine organs minus a brain.
		Minus a brain means you've got a living organ bank.
		You've got enough money.
		You've got a living organ bank without a brain.
		So ethically, there shouldn't be so much problem with growing this clone of you and we could potentially keep you alive short of trouble with your brain forever and it really gets even deeper than that wonder how many of you remember the soul catcher business soon it may be possible to in effect take what is in your brain store
		in a computer and transfer it to a new receptive brain.
		In other words, another you.
		Truly all mind-boggling, isn't it?
		But right now, that little bit of future science fiction, totally aside for a second, right now we have the ability to create a new you.
		To birth an identical you.
		Or presumably to take DNA from somebody who has passed on, that we all have admired and want more of.
		Well by golly, we're going to be able to have more of them.
		More John Kennedys.
unidentified		More Ronald Reagans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine an immediate effort to begin to preserve the DNA of people to reproduce them in the future.
		Ominous times ahead, folks.
		Perhaps the men and the women of the planet no longer need the traditional relationships to produce people that we've had.
unidentified		Had you considered that?
unidentified		That in fact, women no longer will even need men.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or at least the traditional use of men in the process of reproduction.
		There are those who will seek immediate laws and regulations to prevent this sort of thing.
		But since when have laws prevented what men and their egos and women and their egos have wanted to do?
		The answer is never.
		Make the laws, make the regulations, and there will be those with money and power and influence who will not follow the laws and the regulations.
		And you and I both know it.
		If governments have the power to clone warriors, people with a propensity to fight, to do a battle, then you know they will do it.
		And if we don't, they will.
		So, the genie is out of the bottle.
		It's out.
unidentified		That's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The questions are not whether we should do it, because we can ask those, I suppose, until we get blue in the face.
		The fact of the matter is, we're going to do it.
		What are we going to do with it?
		What do you want to see done with it?
		I think it's going to happen.
		Not a matter of it, but a matter of when, and on what scale.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM, from February 25th, 1997.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are the ones.
		We own the night.
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell, and it's great to be here.
unidentified		Loud sound
unidentified		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, 40 Reasons Why Dogs Are Better Than Women.
		Actually, 39.
		There's one that I can't read to you.
		So stand by for that.
		I've got it right here.
		Terribly politically incorrect, but funny as hell.
		So I'll get to that this morning.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello, can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
unidentified		I'm calling from Daytona Beach, Florida.
unidentified		This is Steve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Steve.
unidentified		Yes.
		I like to know a few things.
		Number one, this select antenna that the people that you advertise sometimes with.
		Yes.
		Does it amplify the signal 75 times what it is, like if you barely hear a signal, how many times does it amplify the signal?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I can tell you, I guess I can put it to you this way.
		I don't know about 75 times.
		Was your name Steve?
unidentified		Yeah, uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Steve?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'll cut out, you know how, I don't know what station you're listening to, but as it fades in and out, it'll cut 90% of that out.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not all of it, because nothing will do that, but about 90% without adding any noise.
		A lot of schemes to increase AM signals add noise with the signal.
		The selective tenna increases the signal without adding any noise at all.
		And then during the day, it would enable you to hear radio stations that you would just plain not even hear otherwise.
unidentified		The reason I'm asking you this is because I was listening to the Geek Gordon-Lilly show a couple weeks ago.
		He had the best of Geek Gordon Lilly.
		And he mentioned that some people in the oil industry in the North Slope of Alaska, they had a special apparatus that could pick up AM stations in the lower 48, and he was not sure what the name of it was.
		He thought the name of it was called the Eliminator.
		Like you'd like to want to assassinate somebody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you probably.
		That's G. Gordon Liddy thinking for you.
		So it's a selected 10, I'm sure.
		And they also put up big sky hooks up there.
		They listen to us up there on the North Slope a lot.
unidentified		But the way he was explaining it, they told him that the people in the oil industry, you can amplify a signal 75 times what it is.
unidentified		You know, like say things you put on the frequency and you turn the volume and you don't hear nothing, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		You put this thing up against the radio, connected to the radio somehow, and it will amplify the signal 75 times.
unidentified		And he thought it was called the Eliminator, but he wasn't sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
unidentified		And I wanted to check with you to see if you were aware of another thing other than the...
unidentified		Okay, can I talk to you about a couple other things?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay, this gentleman that you interviewed the other night in North Carolina about having open hearings about UFOs coming on the planet Earth and the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Dr. Stephen Greer of CCETI, yes.
unidentified		Right now, I listened to the interview, and to the best of my knowledge, you didn't ask him why the people that you're working with, are you all going to ask for the people in the government who kept this covered up?
		Are you all going to ask for a special prosecutor to investigate and prosecute if anybody in the government?
		So there won't be no prosecution?
		Yeah, hung.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're just going to be hung on the street.
unidentified		Okay, and also that this cloning thing.
		Yes.
		Does it mean if you paid a duplet copy of somebody, does it mean that the duplet copy definitely wouldn't have a brain, but would have the other organs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		A very simple manipulation of a genetic structure could ensure there would not be a brain in the clone being.
		So in other words, you could literally breed a being for the organs only without the ethical problem of dealing with a human or a soul if a clone would have a soul even.
unidentified		If you want to make the copy of art fail, could you, if you wanted to, have the clone to have a brain, if you chose to?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure I want to proceed with that.
unidentified		I don't mean you personally hop to meet me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		There are those who would suggest cynically that to clone me would be to put out a brain anyway.
		I understand.
		All right.
		Well, look, what I'm trying to say is that you could eliminate essentially the ethical argument by ensuring that the clone did not have a brain, but in every other way had organs that would be immediately available and absolutely compatible with you physically, and that temptation is going to be entirely too great for those who want to live.
		So I think that those who are walking around today, giving the interviews on newscasts that I'm hearing around the country, talking about, but why would we want to do that?
		They're either very naive or simply prevaricating.
		Lying.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		My name is Mary from Honolulu.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Mary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are the islands?
unidentified		Excuse me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are the islands this morning?
unidentified		Oh, they're windy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, I had a report that there were 80 mile an hour winds on the big island the other day, and 200 homes had the roofs taken right off.
unidentified		Yeah, we got a warning that we had to take all our furniture off the L and I. Where is all of this wind coming from?
		Well, we get a lot of cold wind from the Arctic.
		That's where we get all our winds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't seen, well, I didn't know that weather systems moved from the Arctic to Hawaii.
unidentified		That's how we, in the wintertime, how we get our big waves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		In winter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Arctic waves.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Okay.
		I wanted to ask you, well, if Mel is listening, if somehow he can, like, tell us on the air or something.
		I was wondering if there are Indian reservations by where his hole is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're wondering if it would be protected sacred ground of some kind?
unidentified		Yeah, you know?
unidentified		It's interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		I suppose it's a possibility, but Mel privately owns the land now, so...
		Well, nobody knows when that was, dear.
		I appreciate the call.
		I think the next question is whether Mel is going to allow the press to investigate.
		And that's what we're hanging on right now.
		I've got a message into him, so we'll see.
		I've got a number, as I anticipated, a number of press requests.
		People wanting to get hold of Mel and go trudging out to the property to investigate, of course.
		Fascinating story.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
unidentified		I have two questions for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And I'm calling from Santa Rosa, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And one of the questions I have is about the V-Tech phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Is that digitally encrypted?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		The reason I ask is I have two different kinds of phones.
		Both are digital.
		One isn't encrypted, and the other is encrypted.
		And the difference being that if somebody had very sophisticated digital equipment, they would be able to zoom in on the one, but not the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, for example, on a scanner, when you listen to a digital signal, you hear nothing.
		You hear an increase in the noise floor, the white noise maybe, you know, the k sound.
		But you don't even hear anything that resembles a human voice.
		So to reassemble that would be technically so difficult that, you know, these digital security channels, that's what you're talking about, right?
		Yeah.
		Meaningless.
		That just means that there's a digital signal that's changing your frequency every now and then, jumping to a clear frequency, and there is no more real protection for you than a regular.
		What you want is a total digital, true digital phone.
		Not digital security codes.
		That's meaningless.
		Then you've got an analog signal.
		I can sit and listen to you all day on that.
unidentified		Okay.
		And the other thing I want, I appreciate that.
		The other thing I wanted to ask you about was with Mel.
		Yes.
		And this, I think it's almost like going back to the whole thing with Hale Bop and the fraud or the potential fraud and trying to go back and find out what the story was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think it's potential.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's absolute fraud.
unidentified		Right.
		And I'm saying with Mel, here's a person who's taken a lot of your time, he's taken a lot of our time, and he's making some very bold statements about what he has.
		And if you have his phone number...
		No, and I know you do.
		That means not you, because I know you don't have the time, but there are people who have the ability to go out there and find out whether this man is wasting our time or whether he's got something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But without his permission, I'm not just going to willy-nilly give his phone number out.
		That's what I said.
		I've got a message into him now requesting permission to give his phone number to the press.
		Now, if he refuses to allow that, I would say that would increase the suspicion of many that his story is a whale of a tale.
		I do not put Mel's story into the same class as the Hailbot business because with the Hailbop business, we had a tenured professor at a major U.S. university giving us physical evidence that turned out to be fraudulent.
		Mel is giving us a whale of a tail and so far has supplied no physical evidence for examination.
unidentified		Can he send you photos?
unidentified		Can he get some kind of audience?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've asked for photos and he obviously at this point cannot get back on the property.
		He's going to try to find some old photos.
		And short of that, he'll supply a picture.
unidentified		Is it possible that this is a cavern?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, you heard on the air everything that I heard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your guess is as good as mine.
unidentified		I mean, but a cavern would meet these requisites, wouldn't it?
unidentified		If you had an underground?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, a cavern, as I understand it, is something that runs either at an angle down or even up or horizontally, but not a vertical, precise vertical hole in the ground.
unidentified		But if you've got filament with the wind blowing on it and you're trying to drop this and he's saying 18 miles or 16 miles, if you've got wind blowing and this thing is very, very light, you're not able to tell yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But sir, you don't have wind blowing on it.
		That's the whole point.
		Thank you.
		You've got what is purported to be a perfectly vertical shaft.
		Or you would not be able, and a pretty good size, too, what, 9 feet, 9 inches, I believe he said.
		Or you would not be able to do things like dropping a refrigerator directly down, never hearing it smash into the side or anything else.
		In other words, falling perfectly vertically, seemingly, forever.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Yes, good morning, Art.
		Good morning.
		My name's Jim from southwest Michigan.
		Hi, Jim.
unidentified		We just called to make a comment on the hole there.
unidentified		What he said last night of the dog that reappeared that had been thrown in the hole?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Kind of reminded me of Stephen King's pet cemetery.
		Very good.
		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		Hope the government has no plans on doing anything along that lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wonder, like cloning, who the government would choose to throw into its newly acquired hole?
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		I have some suggestions as long as they stay gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, that's exactly it, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The idea, as in pet cemetery, is that whoever you throw in comes crawling back later.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Except for pet cemetery, they come back a lot worse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Real angry.
unidentified		Okay, well, that's my comment for the evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir, thank you.
		Among the 40 reasons that dogs are better than women, one, dogs don't cry.
		Dogs love it when your friends come over.
		Dogs don't care if you use their shampoo.
		Dogs think you sing great.
		A dog's time in the bathroom is confined to a quick drink.
		Dogs don't expect you to call, even when you're late.
		In fact, the later you are, the more excited dogs are to see you.
		Dogs will forgive you for playing with other dogs.
		Dogs don't notice when you call them by another dog's name.
		Dogs rather are excited by rough play.
		Dogs don't mind if you give their offspring away.
		Dogs can really appreciate body hair.
		Even fat, ugly guys can get a beautiful, loving dog.
		If a dog is gorgeous, other dogs don't hate it.
		Female dogs don't mind if you call them a bitch.
		Dogs don't shop.
		Dogs don't like it when you leave lots of things on the floor.
		In fact, they like it.
		They love things on the floor.
		A dog's disposition stays the same all month long.
		Dogs never need to examine the relationship.
		A dog's parents never visit.
		Dogs love long car trips.
		Dogs understand that instincts are better than asking for directions.
		When a dog gets old and snaps at you incessantly, you can shoot it.
		Dogs like deer.
		Dogs don't hate their bodies.
		Dogs don't ever put on 100 pounds after reaching adulthood.
		Dogs never criticize.
		Dogs agree that you have to raise your voice to get your point across.
		Dogs never expect gifts.
		Dogs don't worry about germs.
		Dogs don't want to know about every other dog that you've ever had.
		Dogs don't let magazine articles guide their lives.
		You never have to wait on a dog as they're ready to go 24 hours a day.
		Dogs have no use for flowers, cards, or jewelry.
		Dogs never borrow your shirts.
		Dogs enjoy heavy petting in public.
		Dogs find you amusing when you're drunk.
unidentified		Dogs can't talk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dogs seldom outlive you.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		My name is Nelson.
		I'm from Anchorage, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hi, Nelson.
unidentified		First-time caller.
		I happen to be a reproductive geneticist, and with your speakers the other night talking about mammoth harp and cloning.
		Boy, I was just beside myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was on Dreamland, and the guest was talking about a pole shift.
unidentified		Right, right.
		And that's what I wanted to ask you about.
		I couldn't get through that evening.
		And he did cite another author who was talking about the Mayan prophecies, talking about possible magnetic changes in the Earth.
		And this other author predicted major Earth changes on 12, 28, 2012.
		That was 5-5 rather than 5-5-2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see, yes, sir.
unidentified		It was an interesting comparison between the two.
		And I did have a question.
		We have problems with our America offline up here in Alaska because we only have one line here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it.
		One first-time callers, area 702-727-1222.
		Oh, please don't give out the number.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, as a matter of fact, if you give out the number, you're simply going to make it that much worse.
unidentified		Oh, for America Online?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, don't give out the number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, you have, so for all of Anchorage, there's one number?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there must be more than one number.
unidentified		The number of is a surcharge that's anywhere between $2 and $6 an hour.
		Uh-huh.
		And so I was trying to write you a letter because I had heard that you were going to have a cruise up here to Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, coming to Alaska.
unidentified		And I was thinking, just as a suggestion, that you could have Mr. or Professor Nick Begich speak at one of your stops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good idea.
unidentified		Rather than there's really not a whole lot to see out in Gakona at the HAARP site, except a whole bunch of antennas and fireplayer fences and whatnot.
unidentified		Well, we're going to get to Harp if you were in Anchorage or Damascus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've got you.
		We're going to get to hear HAARP online pretty soon.
		There's a big HARP test coming up.
		We've got the frequencies on the website and the transmit time.
		So if you're Ham or SWL out there, check it out.
		Hey, we are coming to Alaska.
		Boy, are we ever coming to Alaska.
		Now, what I would like you to do is to get out a pen.
		Would you please?
		Because when we come back from the break, I'm going to give you the numbers for the Alaskan cruise.
		Now, there are a lot of Alaskan cruises out there, folks.
		You'll hear other people talking about cruises going hither and yon.
		But the cruise that we're going to take to Alaska is the real thing.
		Now, what do I mean by the real thing?
		I mean that when we get to Alaska, we're not just going to cruise by the ice, the inside passage.
		Oh, yeah, we'll do all of that.
		But we're going to go see the real Alaska.
		And to see the real Alaska, as any Alaskan will tell you, you can't just sort of move on by in a cruise ship.
		We're going to do that, all the beautiful sights, but then we're going to do so much more because we're going to Interior Alaska, Anchorage, Fairbanks, Denali.
		You'll be seeing the real things.
		So run and get a pencil or a pen, and after the break, I'll tell you a little bit about the Alaskan cruise that's coming up and why you're going to want to choose this one.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
		We'll see you next time.
		We'll see you next time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Dr. Dean Adele.
unidentified		I'm Dr. Dean
		Adele.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is typical of what I'm getting, Art.
		Please clone Cindy Crawford for me.
		I promise not to abuse her.
		Signed, Waiting for Cindy Baby.
		Ah, we're doomed.
		I'm telling you, folks, this is it.
		The end is closing in.
		Can't you tell?
		Do you believe them?
		I've got a bridge for you.
		The cloned bridge.
		They will be interesting times, though.
		We've been cursed to live through them.
		Exciting times.
		Wouldn't you say?
unidentified		ScreenLink, the audio subscription service of Coast2Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
		The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
		Plus, you'll get streamed and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bells, Summer In Time Shows, and two weekly classics.
		And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up today.
		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
		See, I think there are more secrets out there.
		I think Fannie, Freddie, the banks are probably in deeper trouble than we are led to believe.
		You have to either say these are just incompetent people or they're following an ideology or maybe even more nefarious, a game plan.
		That's what I think is happening.
		I don't think that they're stupid people.
		I think they have a different agenda than we do.
		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Felix, the amazing cat from Sydney, is only three years old but already has used eight of his nine lives since his adoption by a physician in 1994.
		This accident-prone feline has fallen out of a 10th-floor window and lived, suffered a vicious mauling by a Rottweiler and lived, been zapped by a fallen power cable and lived,
		choked on a plastic mouse requiring CPR, nearly died from food poisoning after eating spoiled fish, been trampled by an angry bull, slipped from the deck of a ship into the Pacific Ocean, and was finally run over by an ice cream truck.
		That's Felix the Australian cat.
		That's eight of what are said to be nine lots.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art Valve.
unidentified		This is Travis calling from southern Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Travis.
unidentified		And I'm calling to find out one of my favorite radio personalities used to listen to on AM was Howard Stern.
		Yes.
		And I've always wondered why he doesn't ever go after some of the mid-sized radio markets because it would seem to, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the answer is he does.
		The question should be, why can't he get into some of the mid-size radio markets?
		And the answer to that, I can give you.
		It's because of the kind of material he does.
		If Howard Stern eliminated about 1% of the totally grossest kind of stuff that he does, he'd be in those radio markets that you're talking about.
		As it is, you know, he plays in New York, he plays in L.A., he plays in the large city, sophisticated, we've heard everything kind of markets, but he doesn't play in Peoria.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the answer.
unidentified		Or a Carbondale.
		Okay.
		Well, one of my manager friends said he charges like a lot of money for his show.
		And, you know, but your sense makes a lot or your explanation?
		There you go.
		Sorry, I'm nervous.
		So that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		No, that's the answer.
		That is the answer.
		And that's his choice.
		He has material that's so far out on the edge.
		But, you know, the answer, I've said this for a couple of years now about Howard.
		He's actually a very talented person.
		But he chooses to be out on that edge that will eliminate him from the middle-sized markets.
		He just doesn't play.
		That's his choice, and that's your answer.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I'm Todd from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Todd.
unidentified		I can't live on the air.
unidentified		Um.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
unidentified		Okay, uh, I got, um, the story about the hole with Mel?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		Um.
		I, uh came across a hole in the same kind of spot in Ellensburg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		My aunt and uncle have a cabin and he was explaining this hole and my dad listens to your show.
		We both listen to this and I got to this point where he was like telling me like about the same hole.
		It ended up, I don't think, being the same one.
		But I remember...
		Exactly.
		I'm trying to explain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well maybe Washington is littered with these endless bottomless pits.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		I can't I've I got to get my breath because I can't believe I got through because I've been dying because I've been hearing people bad mouthing his story and stuff like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well I mean you know it's a wild story so people tend to disbelieve and it's their right to do so.
		In fact I'm not even sure myself.
		I tried to ask him as many questions as I could think of.
unidentified		No, I totally believed him because I've been to a hole just somewhere and he was like explaining how wide it was and like enough for a refrigerator and stuff like that.
		And it was like the same width and all that.
		Because I remember like throwing rocks down there and not being able to hear like when it hits the bottom.
		It's gone so far down.
		You know I've never like put fishing line down or anything like that but I've heard you know like throwing rocks and all you can hear is just hitting it the sides but then you don't hear any more echo or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do you think such a hole goes?
unidentified		I'm no idea.
		It goes forever.
		It's unbelievable like listening to you know trying to hear trying to find the echo and you never can find it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know doggone I meant to ask Emily Lau about that earlier but I forgot you know from Hong Kong I had her on earlier you may not have heard that.
		All right thank you very much.
		I mean she could be on the lookout for the other end of Mel's hole.
		But Emily's got a lot more to worry about.
		I have got now I know this is the weekly world news, but somebody sent me this story and it shows a picture of this guy, Ray Burgard.
		His name is, was, is, he's alive.
		And it says impotent no more.
		Guys, you won't want to try this at home, even though one man swears it worked for me.
		He cured his impotence with a blast to the groin from a stun gun.
		That's right.
		Ray Brigard, it says, had been impotent for eight years when he decided to take aim at himself with a stun gun and fire away.
		Now today he's perfectly sexually active and showing no side effects whatsoever.
		But even the, quote, brave 42-year-old says that he wouldn't suggest this dramatic cure for everyone.
		He said, it hurt, believe me.
		He said, it hurt a lot.
		And a friend of mine who's a nurse said I could have damaged myself permanently, but in my case, I just had a wild idea that somehow it might help, and believe me, it did.
		Impotence had taken its toll on him.
		He blames the condition for ending his marriage in 1992 and making his social life miserable in the following years.
		Well, sure.
		Said, I'd always been pretty successful with the ladies, and for 11 years I had a beautiful wife, but I'd lost my manly abilities.
		Everything went down the drain.
		My wife left me, and I couldn't keep a steady relationship.
		Anyway, check this out.
		On August 18th, apparently, in desperation, he took this stun gun into his hand, and what he did is he called an ambulance, called 911, moments before he pulled the trigger on the stun gun, down to his groin area, pulled the trigger, said, quote, I think I had a direct hit.
		But to tell the truth, the next thing I remember was waking up and seeing the ambulance worker standing over me.
		The pain was incredible.
		I thought for sure I'd done the wrong thing, but the next day all of his sexual abilities returned.
		And then to top it off, it shows a picture of this stun gun, probably about 100,000 volts or something.
		And at the end of the story, it has a medical warning.
		It says, stun guns are dangerous.
		Don't try this without a doctor present.
		Can you imagine walking into a doctor's office with your stun gun, you know, and just having him present while you pull the trigger on yourself?
unidentified		Sigh
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
		This is a snipe hunter from Illinois.
		Yes, sir.
		And I just wanted to talk about the hole there in Washington.
		Okay.
		And basically, with everybody doubting him, it's going to put a lot of doubts, you know, as far as his story.
		You know, people start doubting him.
		Then if the government comes in, it's not going to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's not going to work?
unidentified		Well, basically they're going to step in and how do I say it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		And take his property.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take his whole, yeah.
unidentified		Right, because now everybody's doubting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now it's government whole.
		There's nothing that can be done.
		Oh, I see what you're saying.
		Without the support of people believing his story, the government's going to have their hole.
unidentified		Correct.
unidentified		They've got their end then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think the government would do with the hole?
unidentified		Maybe it's part of some type of research they're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it relates in some way to our deficit and our debt.
unidentified		No?
		Well, it could, in a way.
		You know, a great big old deficit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's like a never-ending hole.
		There's no question about that.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Hello.
		Hi, this is Jason from Vancouver, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jason.
unidentified		Yes.
		Copy right here there.
		About Mill's little hole there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not little.
unidentified		Oh, okay, Mill's big hole.
		Potentially in.
		I've heard something like that.
		Just a few miles from where I live here in Vancouver, we've got a Battleground Lake, and supposedly this thing is bottomless.
		I've never actually found the bottom of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I know there's a lot of lava tubes and stuff around here, so who knows what it could be, but maybe the entire Northwest is littered with this kind of thing, you know?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		But I was thinking that he mentioned something about a circle of stones, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, actually, yes, and something that resembled Stoneinch.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, he was talking something about researching Indian legends.
		And I know there's a guy up in Kelso or Longview area of Washington, over here on the western side of the Cascade.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		His name is Chief Waluska.
		And this guy is like an Indian guy who knows pretty much all the legends.
		I mean, I went there when I was a grade school kid, and he knows all the legends and stuff, and has like a big public service thing he does.
		And so I figure, you know, maybe Mel should give him a call and see what he can tell him about any legends that Indians might have about these holes or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's as good a suggestion as any.
		I really don't know what to say about the whole affair.
		I'm waiting to see what happens like everybody else.
		But I'm getting a lot of calls from people in your area suggesting there are other holes.
		There are other, as you suggest, a lake.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holes.
unidentified		The ape caves sit up north from me a little ways.
		I've been to those numerous times.
		And there's big lava tubes.
		And I don't know what the acoustic effect of lava rock would be, but I mean, the ape caves were found by some guy that just stumbled on the opening one day, like, caved in in front of him.
		And he discovered these, like, it's about a mile long, I think, total.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess you people better be careful where you walk.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		I appreciate it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		Will, KSTP, St. Paul.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		The Scottish scientists' cloning paper was embargoed.
		The research to be stolen to be published by another research group.
		This true story was not published by a New York newspaper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Will, quit yelling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back away from your phone a little bit.
unidentified		Relax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kill out, you know?
unidentified		However, the Chicago Tribune and the Madison, Wisconsin, this Sunday's papers, published this alleged possible allegation at attempted theft.
unidentified		Science fiction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but well, who cares?
		I mean, cloning is cloning.
		Once the genie's out, whoever, you know, they can fight over whoever discovered it, but it's out.
		It's done.
		We're cloning.
unidentified		Well, there's a nice sentence, if I could just finish with this, kindly.
unidentified		May I, kindly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
unidentified		Are you kindly tribune now?
unidentified		The results of the cloning research had been embargoed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're yelling again.
unidentified		Oh, sorry.
unidentified		Embargoed by the journal Nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thanks, Will.
		You know, I don't care who discovered it.
		If it's out, it's out.
		We're going to fight over who discovered this.
unidentified		Embargoed, stolen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Mel.
		Imagine 100, 1,000, 10,000 Mels, huh?
		Would you still want to live?
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Hello.
		Has anyone suggested you having David Oates check on Mel's story?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but every time I have somebody, anybody, turn your radio off, please.
		Anybody on here with an unusual story, people call and suggest David Oates check it out.
		Everybody, you know, they want everybody checked out.
		It's like I should have David Oates on staff or something.
unidentified		And retainers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		Well, I just, you would have thought of it anyway yourself if you wanted to do it right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I'm sure David Oates saves up a lot of the interesting interviews that I do, knowing that he's going to eventually be back on again doing reversals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so I'm sure that you'll hear some reversals on Mel.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I bet he had some buttes in there, too.
		Because Mel, you know, he would pause every now and then.
		And that's when you tend to get the really good reversals in those pauses.
unidentified		Yep, he did pause quite a bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So sure.
unidentified		Well, I just thought I'd mention it.
unidentified		Love yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		By the way, would you accept a clone to be your slave?
		Tell the truth now, the truth.
unidentified		I think we go the way of ancient Greece.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so do I. Thank you very much.
		See, the audience is generally agreeing on this.
		All of you are being honest, and I appreciate that.
		I've yet to hear my first person say, I wouldn't take a clone.
		I wouldn't be part of that.
		A slave?
		From me?
		No.
		I'm an individual.
		I'm an American.
		I'm me.
		I don't need a slave.
		I don't need anybody doing work for things for me.
		Not me.
		No, we're getting more honesty around here.
		I bet on the other shows, they're all decrying it, right?
		I saw a survey that said 88 or 87% of the people think there ought to be a law against cloning.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello?
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		KQ Last Ready, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, speaking of things that could be cloned.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		You know, do I have to have my own clone or can I have somebody else's?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose like cattle there would be theft of clones and all that sort of thing and clone rustling and...
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Hey, you know how you laughed at Ramona when she hurt her toe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a terrible thing, but the truth is.
unidentified		Don't you feel bad?
unidentified		I feel bad because I'm that way, too.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		I had this friend once.
unidentified		He was standing at the top of these stairs.
unidentified		It was like stairs, stairs, stairs, stairs, then a landing, then stairs, stairs, stairs.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		And he fell down.
unidentified		And he tumbled down like a cartoon.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		He made so much noise.
unidentified		And it was so funny.
unidentified		I was in total tears by the time he got the box.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's horrible.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't.
unidentified		It was just like off a movie.
		He's going, shut up, get out.
		I really got hurt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		Here I am.
		Look at his bones sticking out here.
unidentified		I know.
		You know, I said, do you want me to call 911 or what?
		And I was just laughing at him.
		It was horrible.
		I felt so guilty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he's listening and well, but, you know, being on the receiving end of that, I mean, when I did glue my lips shut, it wasn't funny.
unidentified		It was hard too.
unidentified		It was funny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't it was not funny.
emily lau ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was.
unidentified		It was funny.
		I say with his lips glued shut, he might as well have a heart attack.
		It was very funny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You still appear to be enjoying it.
unidentified		Oh, that's great.
unidentified		I still imagine you have a little sore on your lip, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		I guess you're lucky to see it.
		A little sore is not the word.
		There is a portion of this side of my lip that's gone.
unidentified		That's gone.
unidentified		You'll have to pass that on down to the children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've gone.
		It got thrown away in the ashtray.
		Listen.
unidentified		It's like the old World War II story.
unidentified		Well, I lost this piece of my lip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		bring a new life to the old expression, giving someone lip.
		I could have mailed...
		I gotta go.
unidentified		You're sick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		Goodbye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sick is what I was.
unidentified		We'll be back.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an on-tour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
		On the ground, your glove I found a note addressed to me.
		It read, Dear Love, I've done you wrong.
		I must set you free.
		No longer can I live with this hurt and this sin.
		I just couldn't tell you that I was just a friend.
		Moody River, you're deadly and my baby's mine.
		Moody River, your mighty mother, look my baby's mother's mother, we gotta get right without it all.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from I remember that day, when you first came my way No one wants to take your break.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm telling you, I love this song.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just gets me going.
unidentified		I know something about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It keeps going through my head, you know.
		It's one of those...
		One of those things.
unidentified		One of those things.
		Coast of Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device users, specifically for the iPhone and Android platforms.
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		Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up.
		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
		I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
		I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by a mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
		Governments won't do that.
		And the reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
		They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
		If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
		Absolutely not.
		You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
		And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
		So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
		Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell From Bryn Marie and San Fran.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art, I was telling my husband John about your adventures with the cart rack.
		He said, well, there are some people who shouldn't be around Superblue.
		I represent that remark, Bryn.
		Yes, she says, clone, sign me up for six Timothy Dolphins, please.
		Oh, the end is near.
		Here's another one.
		Art, just a couple of quick notes.
		Have you heard that NASA is now in the process of putting together another mission to put a man on the moon?
		It was news to me, but I'm corresponding with a young woman who says a cousin's heading the project up.
		I'm trying to establish correspondence with him through her.
		I'll keep you informed.
		Mel's Hole.
		Today, I called the Kittitash County Sheriff near Mel's location.
		Check this out, folks.
		The woman I talked to said she was a longtime resident of the area.
		In fact, lives in the Menastash Ridge area and has not heard any unusual military activity regarding anyone's private property.
		She is friends with an older couple who are among the original homesteaders in the area.
		They never heard of such a hole.
		Interesting note, however.
		She recalls that about two nights ago, the sheriff's office received a call from someone claiming to have an anomalous hole on their property.
		That's all she knew about the call.
		She said the call was probably on tape somewhere, but couldn't put her hands on it at the moment.
		Said she'd call me back if she found any further information.
		I will keep you informed on this.
		Gary and Como Country.
		Home of the world's first alien pinup girls.
unidentified		It's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this advice might go for all of you.
		Art, please look out your window right now to the east and slightly to the north.
		At about 30 degrees, there is a very bright, fuzzy star.
		I just can't imagine your mountain blocking it this high.
		It's even better with binoculars.
		This is my first facts.
		Hope it makes it.
		Love your show.
		A friend in Kansas City, Gary, he's talking, of course, about Hailbop.
		And I am going to, as soon as the show ends this morning, I'm going to go out and take a look.
		See if I can see it.
		See if it has risen above my mountain.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, sir.
unidentified		This is Arnie in the beautiful downtown Fairbanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fairbanks will last.
unidentified		Oh, we can't wait till your cruise hits town.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		I hope you have some time to do a book signing or maybe a remote broadcast or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my new book will be out by then, you know.
unidentified		Oh, that'll be great if you could schedule that.
unidentified		Anyway, I'm thinking maybe these Scottish scientists should hook up with Nell and conduct a human pony experiment, round up a few politicians and bureaucrats and see how long it would take to fill up that hole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got a good point there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only problem with your theory is the dog that was tossed in and came back out alive.
unidentified		Oh, my God.
unidentified		Yeah, that's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you've got to think about that.
		I mean, what if you began tossing politicians in and multiples of them came back out or they came back out more powerful than ever?
		I mean, it's no wonder the government may have confiscated the damn thing.
unidentified		Yeah, that's the thought, Art.
		One more thing.
		You know what's a controversial guest you get there from time to time, or basically all the time, have you ever considered getting that gentleman that invented the psychological stress evaluator, the voice stress analyzer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it would be fun.
unidentified		I think it would be to take some of your past excerpts from tapes and stuff and put them to the test, find out if some of these guys are really for real or if they really believe what they're expounding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe if we had a little beeping sound that would come on when they started lying teeth off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a thought.
unidentified		That would settle that thing with Mel and Courtney Brown and some of the others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would, but you know what?
		Nobody would ever be willing to come on.
		Yeah, that's true, but you wouldn't.
		Suppose we had a world where you could not tell a lie.
unidentified		Take a lot of fun out of it, wouldn't it?
unidentified		It would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would take so much fun out of it because there would be no more guessing, no more imagination.
		Everything would be hard, cold facts.
		And I wouldn't even have a show.
unidentified		See, I got one suggestion.
unidentified		Your next airline flight, why don't you take your Alpine Living Air Machine with you and lock yourself in the lavatory for the duration of the flight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm sure that would be a winner.
		I appreciate the call, sir.
		Thank you.
		I'm thinking of wearing my ABC mask, you know.
		I bet they wouldn't let me.
		My airline's through this the other night.
		We wouldn't think anything about it.
		But if you went in there with an ABC mask, I guarantee they'd pin your butt up against the wall, and they'd figure you had something horrible with you that you were all set to set loose on an airplane.
		I know they would.
		And you know they would, too.
		Or I suppose you could try and make your case through the mask.
		Well, I don't want to get sick.
		I don't want to get sick.
unidentified		I don't want to wait up against the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know I'm right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Let me get my radio real quick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, turn that sucker off.
unidentified		Okay.
		Um, I uh talked to you earlier this evening about uh uh Stephen Gibbs.
		The reason why I this was before your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, uh-huh.
unidentified		Um the reason why I called you was I had an interesting dream about him that uh I thought I'd share with you.
		Um basically I got a phone call from somebody that um asked me if I had heard what had happened to Stephen Gibbs.
		And at first the name didn't even ring a bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stephen Gibbs of course is the man who claims he has a time machine.
unidentified		Correct, absolutely.
		For all of the Art Bell listeners who had missed the Stephen Gibbs show.
		Yep, yep, yep, yep.
		Basically this conversation with this guy, he said that something had happened to it.
		And so he and I began investigating what had happened to him.
		And oddly enough, we found out what the government was doing at Mel's Hole.
		They had tossed Stephen Gibbs into a hole.
		That was the outcome of the dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that is some dream.
unidentified		It's quite a dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may be that you've been listening to my program too long.
unidentified		I think it's fine.
unidentified		I don't doubt that at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I appreciate the call.
		You know, I've been having a lot of dreams lately in which I've been remembering.
		And I don't know if that's good or bad.
		I've had a lot of dream analysts on here, and you know they all want to analyze your dreams.
		And I've said to a lot of them that I don't necessarily like to dream.
		Even though the dreams I've been having lately have not been bad, they've been pretty good ones, actually.
		Not nightmares, but fairly enjoyable dreams.
		It still seems to me like it's work to dream.
		Do you follow me?
unidentified		It's work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, when I go to sleep, I want it to be the little slice of death that it's advertised to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to just go away and come back later refreshed.
unidentified		And if you have a dream, it's like work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you're going through it.
		It's like life.
		You're going through step-by-step every day.
		Not that I don't enjoy life because I do.
		But when I go to sleep, you know, I want my little advertised slice O death.
		First time caller line, you are upon the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Lion of books of work.
unidentified		Human DNA components, Shroud of Turin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, big deal, sir.
		It's like you're thinking of something new.
		Yeah, we all know the Shroud of Turin.
		Yeah, they might get a little DNA sample and then bring Jesus, back clone Jesus.
		That's what he's talking about.
		You don't have to come at it with some mousy little voice like you're the first one who thought about it because you're not.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Tim in Denver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Tim.
unidentified		Yeah, this Alaska Cruise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that sounds right up my alley.
		I know.
		It's up a lot of alleys.
unidentified		I've already called and made my arrangements, so I'm looking forward to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's a list.
		Things that should never, ever be cloned.
		Paulie Shore, Warren Christopher's Smile, Branson, Missouri, Fred Drescher's Voice, Cop Rock, Suddenly Susan, Campaign 96, Pierre Salinger, and Pat Boone in a Metal Mood.
unidentified		Boy, I would agree with just about every one of those.
unidentified		I wanted to tell you, we've made arrangements to have our meeting taped this Saturday night, and we'll get you a copy off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that would be cool.
unidentified		That's going to be with Jose and Karen Escamilia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well, say hi to Jose for me.
		I sure will.
unidentified		And we'll get a copy off as soon as we get our meeting off the ground.
unidentified		And I'm sure it will be something that will be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do people in Denver contact you about the meeting?
unidentified		Okay.
		The meeting is this coming Saturday evening.
		And it's from 6 to 9 o'clock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Tim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have fun answering the phone.
unidentified		Okay, Art.
		Thanks a million.
		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See you later.
		Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Pat from Burbank, California, and I am a twin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Burbank, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		And my twin's name is Rick, and my name is Pat, and together we're Patrick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Yes.
		Or are you yanking our chains?
unidentified		No, no.
		And I wouldn't mind having another twin around.
		And we would treat them just like anything else.
		I'm sure it's just like anybody being able to have a twin in their life, except maybe 20, 30 years behind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty odd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would such a creature have a soul?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I'm sure that souls, if they do come into our bodies like they talk about, I'm sure they would, you know, get any kind of an empty shell that they could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you know, other than in the case of an absolute twin like you, DNA is as specific as a snowflake, yes?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so it may be that cosmically only one soul is allocated per DNA strain.
unidentified		Well, that's for somebody else to decide.
		Hey, listen, I've got an Elevatron story for you, a great one.
		All right.
		I've been telling my friends that I've been getting all these mystical powers from a lot of concentration and a lot of time off of work because I'm not working right now.
		I'm on disability.
		And I've been spooking him about a few things.
		Like, you know one of those bulbs that's in a vacuum and has a black and a white side fins in it and spins when you put light on it?
		Yeah.
		Okay, so I've been telling him that I've been able to get that moving a little bit and everything.
		I've really been pumping him up.
		One day, with the help of his wife, I brought over my Levitron to the dining room table.
		I took off the cover and opened up the leaf.
		I shoved the Levitron magnet, the base, in between, covered up the dining room table with the cloth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And as he was coming home...
		Well, what I did is I cuffed my hands under it.
		When he walked in the door, I was going, oh, oh, and he saw this thing levitating in my hand.
		It was great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'll tell you, you can have power over people doing something like that.
unidentified		I couldn't have done it without her help.
		Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to set it up and everything.
		And I don't have a LEAF dining room table, but it was great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate your call.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a pretty dirty trick because they're going to think you're doing magic.
		Another way to make people think that you have power is when they hurt themselves, like stub their toe or something, you immediately, without hesitation, tell them that you did that, and if they keep screwing around with you, it's going to happen again.
		I mean, it'll put it on their mind.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		It's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good.
unidentified		I was wondering if you could tell me, I'm from Morrisville, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Moraville.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
		My name's Beverly.
		I get you on KPI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And I was wondering if you could tell me the best time in the early morning to see about right now.
		About right now?
		Yep.
		Oh, good.
		I'll go out and see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go look a little bit north of east and about 30 degrees above the horizon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you see a fuzzy star, then go get a pair of binoculars or something and take a good look and see if you can see the tail.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		All right.
		Thanks a lot, and I'm glad you're feeling better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Thank you.
		Me too.
		Guess who's getting sick, though?
		It was inevitable.
		I thought my wife was escaping, and now it looks like she's coming down with what I have had.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Ari.
		I got a comment about Mel's Hole.
		All right.
		Anybody who understands the Pacific Northwest knows of the geographical maze.
		Maze?
		Yeah, absolutely.
		I mean, the Snoquame Hills, the Snoquame Mountain there, I think it's got a height of about 700 feet, the cascades.
		I mean, it's full of crevices and holes, and I don't know why this is such a mystery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't either.
unidentified		Well, I think somebody should call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, but when you're talking about a hole that has no apparent bottom, you're talking about something fairly unusual.
		You drop a refrigerator into it.
		That's big.
		And if you can't hear that hit bottom, you've got a serious hole on your hands.
unidentified		Well, I think somebody should call the UW Seismology Lab.
		They'll come out and investigate.
		Sure they would.
		And my last time I called you...
		Come on, all right.
		But listen, two things.
		The last time I called you two years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You haven't called in two years?
unidentified		No, I have periods of insomnia, and this is the second one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		But anyway, I told you there was going to be an earthquake up in Seattle area.
		Yes.
		You made the headlines in the paper up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
unidentified		But you thought the government could hold that kind of information, and I called the UW Seismology Lab, and there's no way anybody can predict an earthquake.
		Second point, too.
		The last time I tuned into you, it was Alien Lovers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you mean Pamela?
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		I turned it on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was Pamela the Lizard Lover?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, I could not believe that was entertaining the midnight folk.
unidentified		But more importantly, if you have nightmares and you want to slow down your brain, stop that kind of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said I've been dreaming a lot lately and that it's like work.
unidentified		Well, I just, I think that I think of alien lizard lovers.
unidentified		I must have talked about that for three days because it blew me away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so did a lot of other people.
		I mean, they just couldn't believe that I did it.
		But people can't believe that I do a lot of things.
		I'll do anything.
		I keep telling people I'll do anything.
		They don't believe me.
		And then when I demonstrate it, they go nuts.
unidentified		Well, I am enjoying listening to you again, and I hope when you do your last cruise, because I did do a cruise, but I was up in Denali in early September.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How was it?
unidentified		Fabulous.
		It was a pristine day.
		I mean, the day we toured the park.
		But more importantly, if people can arise at 2 and 3 in the morning, they might see the aurora.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
		Oh, I know.
		And, oh, God, is the aurora incredible?
		I saw it for years, and it's just the most unbelievable thing you will ever see.
		Shimmering, firing across the sky.
		It's just, it's amazing.
unidentified		Well, and I think if you, if, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to be taking your cruise, but I know that the Alaska is a huge destination now for the Japanese because they believe that if they conceive their child under the Aurora Borealis, it will bring good luck to the child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		Well, listen, thank you.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Good night, Cosmos.
unidentified		Good night, Cosmos.
		Good night, Cosmos.
		How was it?
		Fabulous.
		It was a pristine day.
		I mean, the day we toured the park, but more importantly, if people can arise at 2 and 3 in the morning, they might see the aurora.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know.
		Oh, I know.
		And oh, God, is the aurora incredible?
		I saw it for years, and it's just the most unbelievable thing you will ever see.
		Shimmering, firing across the sky.
		It's just, it's amazing.
unidentified		Well, and I think if you, if, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to be taking your cruise, but I know that the Alaska is a huge destination now for the Japanese because they believe that if they conceive their child under the Aurora Borealis, it will bring good luck to the child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		Well, listen, thank you.
		I'm R. Fell.

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