Emily Lau, Hong Kong Legislative Council member since 1991 and pro-democracy leader, warns China’s February 1997 move to weaken Hong Kong’s human rights laws threatens the "one country, two systems" promise, with 1 million residents already holding foreign passports. She details her December 1996 arrest during protests against Tung Chee-hwa’s appointment and fears incremental crackdowns, not just on dissent but artistic freedom too. Despite skepticism about Western pressure, Lau urges global support to preserve Hong Kong’s autonomy before Beijing fully consolidates control, risking economic exploitation and mass immigration. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning as the case may be across this great land, this great globe.
I'm Art Bell from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains in the west, at minimum, all the way east to the Virgin Islands in the Caribbean, US Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole and worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning.
I'm Art Bell.
This morning, I am going to take you to China, Hong Kong, actually, soon to be China.
And we're going to speak with a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council that has been called the Iron Lady of Hong Kong, Emily Lau.
She is a spokesperson for Frontier, which is a pro-democracy group.
Not party, but group.
And so we will talk with Emily Lau.
She was on CBS News this past Sunday.
may have been her.
unidentified
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Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Well, I visited your beautiful city, and I came away, Emily, with many impressions of a very, very vibrant, alive, capitalist jewel of a city where the people were very, very happy, but a little bit worried.
And then I traveled into Canton, China, up to Canton, and there I found that people were not so happy.
People seemed to be afraid.
They were surprised to see Americans.
They would come running out of their stores just to see Americans.
So I had many very strange impressions of communist China, and one of them was it scared me.
I had never seen so many factories, so much business going on, so many trucks going back and forth.
And now in July, Hong Kong is going to revert to China, and I guess there's some trouble on the horizon.
China apparently has voted down some laws that were supposed to stay in place, human rights-type laws.
Well, on Sunday, the National People's Congress, and that is the Chinese Parliament, decided to repeal certain provisions in Hong Kong laws.
Some of those are colonial laws, which of course should cease to be in force at the end of June anyway.
But others relate to human rights, very fundamental basic human rights like the freedom of demonstration, the freedom of association, freedom of assembly, and so on.
And because they think that we are too free, their excuse is that these rights are in breach of the basic law, which will be our mini-constitution in July.
And that was, of course, promulgated by the National People's Congress in 1990.
So the long and short of it, Art, is that the people are concerned.
I mean, especially, I think the emigration from Hong Kong peaked shortly after the Tenan Minh Square massacre in Peking of 1989.
And at the height of it, we saw about over 60,000 people leaving.
I mean, we only have a population of around 6 million.
But I think a rough estimate right now is that out of the 6 million people, as many as 1 million have already got foreign citizenship or right of abode elsewhere.
So there are these people who have the means and they have acquired some kind of insurance policy.
Now, China would have a great interest, it seems to many Americans, in keeping Hong Kong as an open trading center to the rest of the world to increase their already great trade.
In other words, not to screw up a good thing, Emily.
I will be out of office on July 1st, and so will all members of the pro-democracy lobby, because we have refused to take part in this farce called selection to the provisional legislature.
We don't want anything to do with that.
We want proper elections.
The Chinese have said there is no time for election, so they have hand-picked a provisional legislature, and 20, 26 of us will have nothing to do with, so we will all be out of a job.
Well, officially, members of the Clinton administration and even members of Congress have told us that they are very concerned about Hong Kong and this handover is a very big event this year.
But somehow we get the feeling that, okay, they may be concerned, but there is not very much they will do if things go wrong.
And so just what we, I think, what we are getting seems to be just lip service.
And it's not just about Hong Kong.
It's over human rights in general.
Because it seems President Clinton is now more interested in trade than in human rights.
But because there are many Americans who still care about human rights, and that's why he and his officials have to pay lip service to it.
Of course, I mean, I think the situation must be quite tense, and there is, of course, fierce power struggle going on.
But I guess in the short term, and I'm talking about the next few weeks and months, there may not be any drastic change.
There is a very important Communist Party Congress coming up in October.
And I think, but we are not going to see any big change.
Otherwise, I mean, it could be very, very devastating.
The feeling is that there won't be any abrupt changes in the coming months.
But who knows what will happen?
Whether the person that has been hand-picked by Deng Xiaoping to succeed him, President Zhang Jimin, who knows whether he is able to consolidate his power base or not?
Talking about reports, I mean, there was another report by the State Department in your country recently about human rights in many countries.
And one report was on China.
And that report said very clearly that the Chinese government have succeeded in cracking down on the entire pro-democracy movement in the whole country.
And hence, there is not a single dissident at liberty.
There has either been killed or imprisoned or are in exile.
Well, the Hong Kong people feel very powerless and fatalistic because after all, most of our parents fled from China.
And mine came in 1948, the year before the Communists came to power.
And then the other half of the population are people like myself, children of such refugees.
So they are very, very scared of the communists.
And before the might of the communist giant, they feel very, very defenseless and powerless.
And so I think people here are now getting more and more quiet because they don't want to say things and then become marked enemies.
And because the Chinese have a habit of settling accounts with its enemies, even if it's a long time later, people are very scared.
So people, you know, if you come to Hong Kong, you don't see many people demonstrating, speaking out, although deep down inside, they are very frustrated.
There is so much commerce going on, but politically, it is still all closed up the way it always was.
And I'm afraid that's exactly what they're going to try to do to Hong Kong.
But I don't think it's going to work in Hong Kong, because the people of Hong Kong have had freedom for some time now, and there is an expression in America about once they've been to Paris, how are you going to keep them down on the farm?
But sadly, it seems the people do not, they are not yet responding in a very robust manner to all of China's threats and intimidations.
And in fact, we get people saying, well, okay, let us try to adjust.
But I think when the crackdown comes, when the repression comes, I guess people will rise up.
If you cast your mind back to 1989, before and after the Tiananmen Square massacre, one million Hong Kong people took to the streets to demonstrate in a very peaceful way.
So they have stood up in the past for the Chinese people, and they must stand up for themselves.
I'm sure I'm one of those marked people, but the fact that I'm concerned about my future has not stopped me from speaking out, whether it's on the phone or physically traveling to America and to the West and so on.
But of course, I know there is a price that I have to pay ultimately, and there could be dire consequences.
It is a very sorry saga, Art, but I mean, I just go on doing the best I can while I'm still at liberty.
Well, because the National People's Congress has decided to take back some of our rights about the freedom to associate, the freedom to assemble, the freedom to protest, so those rights would be very heavily circumscribed come July 1st.
And this illegal provisional legislature will actually operate in the next few months to make new laws regarding those freedoms.
So I think those are the first freedoms that will go.
And also the freedom of the press, which is very dear to our hearts, is going quite fast.
There is a lot of self-censorship here already.
And last year, Chinese government officials came out and told the press that of course they will be free after 1997, but they can report but cannot advocate and they should not criticize the Chinese leaders.
So I think they put down so many markers and people are, I mean some of them are being intimidated.
All right Emily hold on we are at the bottom of the hour.
We'll be back in several minutes and speak with you further.
Emily Lau, who is a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council for just a little while longer, will be back in a moment and we will get the phones open.
We will let you talk to her.
She's in Hong Kong and I'm in the high desert.
unidentified
You're listening to Artfell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
Coast to Coast AM from February
25, 1997.
Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
You're listening to Arc Bell somewhere in time on Premiere Radio Networks.
Tonight, an oncour presentation of Coast to Coast AM from February 25th, 1997.
Emily, if things go wrong, if things go terribly wrong, would it be more effective for you to continue your work or try to continue your work from Hong Kong, or would it be better for you to be out?
In Washington right now, there is, as you know, much trouble with scandals involving money from your part of the world that was apparently given to the Clinton administration's reelection effort.
That is going to make it even doubly or more difficult for the Clinton administration to have any voice at all about Hong Kong.
I think, well, of course, I think we would like to see what kind of things these investigations would come up with.
But maybe President Clinton would like to show that he is really quite independent in terms of pursuing these foreign policy objectives and to show that he has not completely succumbed to the influence and pressure of people with money wherever, you know, from the world where they're from.
So I don't necessarily think that now because of these investigations, which are of course very serious, that would completely undermine his ability to stand up and speak up for human rights in Asia.
Well, I don't really believe I'm one of the 100 most powerful women in the world.
I don't believe that for one minute.
If you come and look at me, you will see that I'm quite powerless in a sense that, as I said, before this communist giant, very few people in Hong Kong can look that powerful.
But of course, my power base as an elected politician has to come from the people.
And if the people don't want to stand up, then there is not very much power remaining me.
And of course, I mean, for journalists, for people who've been in Hong Kong in the last few months and have seen our demonstrations, they find it very amazing that so few people bother to demonstrate.
In many cases, the number of foreign journalists outnumber the demonstrators.
And they have put this question to me time and time again.
They say, where are the people?
Where are the people?
And so it's true that people just feel so, you know, they just feel that it is useless to take to the streets.
They don't think we can change China.
And also, of course, they feel quite comfortable right now.
I mean, in Hong Kong, it's not as if we are all terribly intimidated yet, and the economy is not doing too badly.
So the people feel they're okay.
But if and when the crackdown comes, I guess people will want to rush out and show, you know, how they feel.
I think I would want to demonstrate with the people.
And I have been demonstrating, but not too many of them bothered to come out with us, and that's why it is really sad.
When I was in Washington, D.C. last week or two weeks ago, I was asked whether we in Hong Kong have ever heard of Belgrade, where the people demonstrated for 80, 90 days non-stop.
And of course, Hong Kong is not Belgrade, but I think the Hong Kong people must learn that they have to stand up for their rights.
It's, your tears only come out when you see the coffin.
I mean, that's terrible.
And that's what we are doing, urging them not to wait until they see the coffin, but stand up now, because it is not that difficult to envisage losing our freedoms.
All they have to do is look across the border, and they know what to expect.
And sometimes I get a bit exasperated with the people saying, oh, well, there's not much we can do.
Oh, any holiday or any time there are many people who come in and out of China.
And people from China come to Hong Kong as well.
So it's not as if they don't know.
And also, of course, our future chief executive, Mr. Siege Tong, the one who will replace Governor Chris Patton, has said that he has a lot of admiration for Singapore.
If there is a crackdown on the press freedom of association and assembly and protests, surely these short days before the takeover, people like you must be preparing for alternative means of distribution of information and so forth just in case.
Well, I mean, ostensibly, we are told that everything will not change.
But of course, I mean, the leader will change.
And hence the policy may change.
So if they are really going to crack down on their political enemies, then surely they will use the police, they will use the Commission against Corruption, they will use all these law enforcement agencies to go after us.
So that is the concern.
And so it is mainly a question of political freedom.
With the other things, I think they may be quite relaxed.
I mean, they want to make money.
Everybody wants to get rich.
But it's just that they cannot stand criticisms.
So those who dare to dissent may get into trouble.
Yes, many people in America ask such sad questions about their own military, and it is very sad to contemplate.
So you think they might carry enough of them, would carry out the orders that the Chinese would not have to bring in their own police or even their military to proceed with this crackdown?
And that was, we're talking about the 11th of December last year.
And on that day, Mr. C.H. Tong was so-called selected as the chief executive of the future Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.
And the ceremony took place at the convention center in Hong Kong, in Wan Chai.
and of course we never for one minute believe it was a real selection or election.
The Chinese appointed 400 people and called out the selection committee and they were supposed to select the chief executive and there were supposed to be three candidates but everybody knew from day one that you know Tong is the man and even when the American Assistant Secretary of State Winston Lord when he came to Hong Kong at the end of last year he only asked to see Mr. Tong.
So anyway we were quite fed up with the farce, with the charade.
So we held a demonstration there to coincide with the selection process.
And the police, and there were very few of us because especially it's a work day.
Hong Kong people don't demonstrate on work day.
They only demonstrate on holidays.
So there were about only 30, 40 odd of us, very small number.
There were over 500 policemen there to deal with us.
I mean it was really pathetic.
And then of course we refused to go into this so-called designated area to demonstrate.
We wanted to demonstrate near the entrance so that when these people arrived to cast their vote they could see us.
The police said no you can't.
So we decided to just march around the block because the whole place was, you know, there were barriers everywhere.
So we were marching and suddenly we saw a park.
There was no barrier.
So we tried to cross the road to go over near the entrance and all these policemen descended upon us and tried to push us back.
So what did we do?
We sat on the road.
We actually lay on the road and they say, if you don't get up, you're breaking the law.
We're going to arrest you.
And we refused to get up.
We lay there for half an hour.
They came, lifted us up one by one, put us in the police truck, drove us back to the Wan Chai police station and kept us there for over four hours.
In the end, the government decided not to press any charges.
And so that was the end of the matter.
And in fact, a journalist came to interview me a few weeks ago, and he said he had just been to see a banker.
The banker told him that he was very pleased that I was arrested.
Why?
Because he said, or he was, of course, very optimistic, very confident about the future, the banker.
But he somehow feels that people like me would be arrested again in future by the Chinese.
But now, because the British have set a precedent of arresting me, so in future, when I'm arrested by the Chinese, nobody, including people like you, Art, should be surprised or concerned.
unidentified
You should then shrug your shoulders and say, oh, that poor girl again.
You may never have been there, but Hong Kong is one of the most beautiful places in the entire world.
It's free, it's fun, it's rich, it's capitalist, and it's about to change.
My guest is Emily Lau.
She's in Hong Kong.
As a matter of fact, she is a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council.
She is a spokesperson for a pro-democracy group there called Frontier.
She's probably going to be in trouble when the takeover occurs in July.
We'll hope not, but she probably is going to be.
The Chinese people so far, according to Emily, don't seem to be exactly rallying behind the cause.
They're scared.
Or they're lazy.
Or we're not sure what the situation is.
They're probably unsure of what's going to occur.
If you have any questions for Emily Lau, now would be a good time.
We're going to devote this hour as much as possible to your questions.
Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, back in a moment.
unidentified
Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, back in a moment.
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Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Art Bell Back down to the other side of the world and Hong Kong and Emily Lau, again a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council due to be disbanded by law, the new law, in July when Hong Kong goes back to China.
And the freedom of the press, freedom of association, assembly protest will all at that time probably end.
This was found out this last Sunday when China's legislator voted to dilute the Hong Kong civil liberties laws.
And so we're talking about the return.
Emily, in the United States, the average couple, I believe, has 2.3 children per couple.
Well, there is another old saying here about a frog in boiling water.
I'm sure you may have heard that one.
And I wonder if they are going to make the people of Hong Kong like the frogs in boiling water and slowly, slowly, slowly remove bit by bit the freedoms that they don't want you to have.
But even if it's strong, the strongest that we've seen in Hong Kong is in 89, when we had a million people taking to the streets in a very peaceful manner.
If we are going to lose our political freedoms, how on earth can we help the rest of China?
But on the other hand, if we can succeed in persuading the communist government to allow Western-style democracy to flourish in Hong Kong in some shape or form and to allow us to enjoy some of our basic freedoms, I think that would be a step forward.
I mean, if you were sitting in Peking, you would probably be concerned as well.
But infection being one thing.
But even without the infection, I don't think they would like to see a free and democratic Hong Kong.
But nevertheless, of course, they are saying that if we allow democracy to flourish in Hong Kong, it could spread like cancer to the rest of the Chinese nation.
Well, the question then is the Americans in Hong Kong, Emily, who have made very good money, many foreigners, many Americans, do you believe they will stay and not worry, or will they flee?
Emily, it's very hard to know which is the best course for you, to organize large and peaceful demonstrations that may be taken the wrong way by China, or to quietly wait and see what happens and only begin protest if there are big crackdowns.
It's hard to know which is the right or best course.
I think for a start, if you can write to your president or write to your member of Congress and tell him or her, you know, whoever it is, to do something to help us, to send a message to China, to tell China to leave us alone.
I think if your politicians start getting millions of letters in their mailbag, I think they will sit up and listen.
We could cut off trade or limit trade with China and link it to human rights.
But I think the sense of the American government is that no matter what we would do with trade, China would not move, would not budge.
And many people feel that is why we do not press the human rights issues.
Other Americans believe that it is because there has been money flowing to our current administration to encourage trade and discourage words about human rights.
Well, obviously, the business people, whether they are in America or outside America, have lots of money to spend on lobbying.
And this business of lobbying in Washington is quite extraordinary, I think.
You people ought to look at that and do something about it.
But I think there is a lot of pressure brought on the government.
There's no doubt about it.
But I still think that it is important that we get the message home to the politicians that they should also respect human rights and urge the Chinese to respect human rights.
And I do not necessarily think that human rights and trade are mutually exclusive.
Because if you tell the American businessman that they have to pay a very high price for human rights elsewhere, that means they cannot trade, they're not going to like it and do we really have to say it to them say you must give up you must make sacrifices so that we can get human rights respected in a foreign land do we have to do that well all right Emily if if the situation becomes bad should we treat Hong
I think if the situation is bad, and by bad, I mean, and I think you mean very, very gross violations, then I think all bets are off.
Of course, we have to use whatever weapons at our disposal to do.
I mean, I'm not saying that don't touch it ever.
No, I think if the situation is bad, then we must do everything we can.
But I think in the meantime, what the politicians have not done, and which they can do while still maintaining trade, is to give equal priority to human rights.
The reason China doesn't take America or others seriously is that, you know, if they go into a meeting with China behind closed doors, they spend the vast majority of the time talking about trade and other things, and maybe spend one minute on human rights.
Come out of the door, face the camera, TV and radio and so on.
And they say, oh, we raised the issue of human rights with China, and China knowing full well that they only spend one minute on it, and they laugh.
Well, Emily, your human rights in Hong Kong may be held prisoner by the situation in Korea right now, because I think when we talk to the Chinese, we're trying to have a dialogue about Korea more than we are about the human rights of the people of Hong Kong.
And as a longtime resident of Little Rock, Arkansas, I'd like to, I have no questions, but I've had some observations that the word of Bill Clinton is totally unreliable.
His administration word is totally unreliable.
The people of Hong Kong, I'm sorry to say, will only get lip serviced, in my opinion.
When push comes to shove, you're not going to have anything from Bill Clinton.
In the recent military exercises with mainland China on Taiwan.
Yes, sir, on Taiwan.
You know, we had a couple cruisers that maybe went through the straits, but the carriers were on the other side.
And it was only a show, you know, tit-for-tat or something.
We're going to show it.
But when Communist China, mainland China, I don't know the right terms, when they come in, you're going to get some words.
And I don't know anything about Mrs. Albright, but she is an administrative appointment, probably a fine woman, probably has deep convictions, but she will do what the administration wants.
And right now, all they're going to do is say, well, we abhor this and we abhor that.
And if you would go back to 1992, when President Clinton said, we are going to reduce the deficits or the trade deficits between Japan and the United States, it never happened.
A year ago, two years ago, I believe in our local newspaper just today or yesterday, our trade deficit with China was $30 or $30.
Traditionally, in United States politics, conservative administrations have pushed human rights as an issue and linked it to trade with countries.
Now, surprisingly, this administration, a Democrat administration, you would expect very strong words, even very strong actions, and this administration is weaker than any in my memory.
Emily, do you feel somewhat betrayed by the people of Hong Kong that there has not been more concern, more demonstration, more rallying around people like yourself?
Well, of course, I would like to see more people getting, you know, being ready to stand up to defend their own rights.
That's true.
But if you talk about betrayal, then I think I feel far more betrayed by the British government.
After all, they've run Hong Kong for more than one and a half centuries, and they have not seen fit to give us self-determination or democracy, and now they are just delivering us to communist rule.
Well, of course, there are those who agree with China, and they are going to sit on the illegal provisional legislature.
But those of us in the pro-democracy camp who have nothing to do with it.
So, yes, we have people with different views in Hong Kong.
But on the two, only two occasions in which the Hong Kong people had the right to elect their representatives, they have chosen with very wide margin people from the pro-democracy lobby.
Yes, but Emily, when one moves From Hong Kong into Communist China at the border checkpoints and elsewhere, the people are not really so friendly, is what I saw.
No smiles, very sour, very unhappy-looking people.
And I would cry for Hong Kong if it became like that.
And we are, of course, very different from mainland China.
And I hope that when the tourists continue to come after the takeover, they will find that we are still different.
And that is exactly what I'm trying to do.
What we are trying to do is to preserve all these good things about Hong Kong, to get rid of colonial rule, to try to have autonomy, to preserve our freedoms.
We hope still to be very different from the rest of China.
Now, because it will probably be Beijing, or Peking, that will be in control, and because mainland China is such a huge country in the infrastructure and everything else, has there been any comments about how the income tax will be affected in respect of Hong Kong?
Well, I mean, if the Chinese are true to their words, they say they will allow us to have autonomy.
And our current system, under British colonial rule, would more or less remain intact because I think the taxation, the very low tax that we have and all that, seem to have quite a wide popular support.
And I hope that the Chinese will not come in and dismantle it.
But having said that, of course, I am a bit concerned that China may have her eyes on Hong Kong's money.
And somehow our officials in future may even volunteer to donate Hong Kong's money to China.
I mean, under the joint declaration and the basic law, we don't have to pay taxes to the central government.
But if you have people who are in charge here who want to ingratiate themselves with Peking whenever there are floods or natural disaster, or they may even want to use Hong Kong people's money to buy Chinese bonds, this is what I'm concerned about.
But what the Chinese have told us is we can keep our current economic system, and we don't have to follow that of China.
And I worry that what I hear from you, Emily, about the people in Hong Kong now is true, perhaps even more so of the people in my country.
And that is that they do not appreciate the freedoms that they have and would not appreciate them until they were gone and would not do anything until they were gone.
And by then, of course, it would be too late.
So I'm very worried about that.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Emily Lau in Hong Kong.
We want to say, first of all, I want to extend a warm American greeting to you and all the Chinese people.
And for the Chinese leaders that may be listening to this broadcast, we hope they make the right decisions with respect to keeping Hong Kong open for the rest of the world.
Additionally, I was kind of surprised to hear you say that we should write our congressmen or take action of that nature.
The reason why I say that is because hasn't outside interference in the past, outside criticism of China, not worked?
That's just the nature of China itself.
That really the most successful policy of dealing with China is one of working behind the scenes and reinforcing those attitudes that we feel are appropriate but not being open to the rest of the world.
And finally, the last comment is, with respect, don't you feel that the Chinese leaders have looked to Taiwan, and I hate to break up Taiwan because I know there's a very adversarial relationship there, but Taiwan and Hong Kong and seen how prosperous these two communities are,
and don't you think that in the long term, and based on what we're seeing in terms of products delivered to the U.S., there's a whole lot of stuff that toys, et cetera, that are being delivered from China.
Don't you think that this is going to moderate the Chinese politics and toughness towards the rest of the world?
And I think the Chinese have responded to such pressures.
They have released political dissidents.
And we have a journalist in Hong Kong who has been locked up and been given 12 years for stealing state financial secrets when he just wrote an economic story.
And what happened to him recently?
unidentified
He was released after being kept in jail for three years.
All right, well then I guess I should ask you, the interview is almost over, so I should ask you the same question they asked you in New Zealand, Emily.
If you are arrested, what would you like those who support you to do?
Well, I hope they will find someone influential and get the person to help.
And I hope they would...
If any of us in the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong should get into trouble, I hope people in America, people in the international community will, you know, write to their governments and also, if they can, start some kind of international campaign to help to get these people released.
Emily, we're at the end of the interview, and I would like to do another one with you when we get very close to the takeover or when you feel it is necessary.
We just spent two hours with Emily Lau, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council from Hong Kong.
She's a pro-democracy person, and I would like to say that I have great hopes and admiration for her, and I do.
But there is a sense within me that tells me that Hong Kong is in big trouble.
And believe me when I tell you, that's very sad.
Those of you who have been to Hong Kong know what I'm talking about.
For those of you who have never been there, I wouldn't know how to describe it to you.
It's vibrant.
It's alive.
It's a happy place.
And I fear that's about to end.
At any rate, we'll get underway with open lines and anything you want to talk about for the remainder of the show this morning.
in a moment.
unidentified
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
See, I think there are more secrets out there.
I think Fannie, Freddie, the banks are probably in deeper trouble than we are led to believe.
You have to either say these are just incompetent people or they're following an ideology or maybe even more nefarious, a game plan.
That's what I think is happening.
I don't think that they're stupid people.
I think they have a different agenda than we do.
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Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by a mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
Governments won't do that.
The reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
Absolutely not.
You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Art Bell Let me catch you up now on a few things out there, folks.
Number one is Philip Taylor Kramer, known as Taylor Kramer, and Kathy Kramer, who is his sister.
You may recall, she was on the show.
You may recall during the course of the program, I asked Kathy if she wanted to have Ed Dames go to work on her situation, and he said yes, he would.
And he has.
I am going to read you what I've received thus far from Ed Dames, and I only do this after having spoken with Kathy Kramer.
The following came from Ed Dames and SciTech.
Dear Art, Philip Taylor Kramer is dead.
Foul play was involved.
SciTech has a site description for the location of Kramer's badly decomposed body in the state of Montana.
We are continuing our work as promised and will keep you and key federal, state, and local officials informed.
Edward A. Dames, President.
Signed.
Now with trepidation, I spoke to Kathy Kramer and relayed this much information to her.
On March 6th, Ed Dames will again be my guest along with Kathy Kramer.
I told this when I read this to Kathy Kramer on the phone.
She said, oh my God, he's got relatives in Montana.
When we have Ed Dames back, he will have more of a description of the site where his body, badly decomposed, it says here, is located.
So we will have them both on the program March 6th.
Right now, you know as much as I know.
On March 6th, there will be additional information.
So the two of them together will be on that program.
That's one.
Two, tomorrow night we are going to have a very remarkable person here.
He is John Shepard and he comes, he will be coming to us from Central Lake, Michigan.
And for all his adult life, John Shepard has been trying to contact UFOs.
And toward that end, Mr. Shepard has built the most remarkable, remarkable assemblage of electronic gear that has literally taken over his entire home.
I've never seen anything like it in my life.
I suggest between now and tomorrow night that you get up to my website and take a look at what he has assembled, what John Shepard has assembled.
It is incredible.
Absolutely mind-boggling.
We've got an entire page, a series of photographs devoted to Project Stratt and what John Shepard is doing.
So obviously, you know, there's going to be gridlock tomorrow night when he's on.
So get up there beginning now and take a look at some of, in fact, archive some of these remarkable photographs.
Subject of the final hour Saturday morning and two hours of airtime last night.
A remarkable story of a hole in Manastash, Washington, or in that area that seemingly has no bottom.
And I'm sure a lot of you heard Mel last night.
Some believed him, some didn't.
I received a number of media inquiries today, newspapers and media in Washington, wishing to contact Mel.
And I'm not going to give his number out without Mel's permission.
So I have put a message on his answering machine, indicating there is a lot of media that would like to take a little trip out to Mel's property and confirm what we've been hearing.
So I will not give that number out until I get that confirmation.
He seemed to indicate last night that he would not mind doing something of that sort, so I would expect it would be in the affirmative, but I don't know that for certain.
So I will await hearing from Mel, and at the moment I do, why I will turn his number over to the various media groups that want to go investigate this bottomless hole.
Sort of in a rip, please, believe it or not, category.
I can't guarantee you that what Mel said was true.
I have no way of knowing.
You literally heard just about everything, short of about five minutes of private conversation, that I've heard on the subject.
So you either believe it or you don't.
Now to another topic.
Cloning.
I am working on Friday night, Saturday morning, having a university professor here who is at the same time, check this out folks, a geneticist, a Jesuit priest, and a bioethicist, all at the same time.
Can you imagine from a major U.S. university, somebody with all three disciplines combined, I've been trying to figure out exactly who would be right to approach this very incredible subject of cloning both what has been done and what you and I both damn well know has been done.
I'm convinced that we are already cloning human beings, not publicly, but if it can be done, it is being done or will be done, one of the two.
And I can think of nobody more qualified to comment than somebody with all of those disciplines as part of their formal education.
The religious aspects, the scientific aspects, and the ethical aspects.
So I'll be confirming that for you tomorrow.
And if it comes, it will be Friday night, Saturday morning.
In the meantime, in the news, Clinton acknowledging that he backed donor visits to the White House, letting the wheels come for the meals and the lodging, bed and board, I guess, huh?
For donations.
DuPont, mentally incapacitated but guilty, third-degree murder.
And of course, in Atlanta, it would appear as though we have some sort of right-wing group, Christian group calling itself the Army of God, bombing things.
Not my kind of God, and I suspect not your kind of God, but somebody's kind of God.
The God O bombs.
Bombs for our Lord.
Not very funny, really, huh?
So, anything at this point that you would like to talk about, if you would like to talk about, and I know that a lot of you do, this entire cloning affair, this is not a trivial matter.
In the last several years, I have done a number of programs on clones, on the cloning of human beings.
I am surprised that they have acknowledged it publicly to have the ability to duplicate a human being.
Do you understand what really can be done now?
One of your cells, one of your cells, a little scraping of your skin, or perhaps more efficiently a drop of your blood, anything with your DNA sequence could create a new you.
This story is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger as the American people, the world in fact, begins to realize the implications of what is now possible.
The possibility that we could create a being and everybody will say, well, we shouldn't do it.
I hear them on the news all the time.
We can do it, but why would we want to?
Don't be silly.
With genetic manipulation, it's going to be possible to create a human being, an identical you, with organs, pristine organs, lungs, hearts, livers, kidneys that are identical to the ones you have.
And we can even create a being who has all of these pristine organs minus a brain.
Minus a brain means you've got a living organ bank.
You've got enough money.
You've got a living organ bank without a brain.
So ethically, there shouldn't be so much problem with growing this clone of you and we could potentially keep you alive short of trouble with your brain forever and it really gets even deeper than that wonder how many of you remember the soul catcher business soon it may be possible to in effect take what is in your brain store
in a computer and transfer it to a new receptive brain.
In other words, another you.
Truly all mind-boggling, isn't it?
But right now, that little bit of future science fiction, totally aside for a second, right now we have the ability to create a new you.
To birth an identical you.
Or presumably to take DNA from somebody who has passed on, that we all have admired and want more of.
Well by golly, we're going to be able to have more of them.
Not all of it, because nothing will do that, but about 90% without adding any noise.
A lot of schemes to increase AM signals add noise with the signal.
The selective tenna increases the signal without adding any noise at all.
And then during the day, it would enable you to hear radio stations that you would just plain not even hear otherwise.
unidentified
The reason I'm asking you this is because I was listening to the Geek Gordon-Lilly show a couple weeks ago.
He had the best of Geek Gordon Lilly.
And he mentioned that some people in the oil industry in the North Slope of Alaska, they had a special apparatus that could pick up AM stations in the lower 48, and he was not sure what the name of it was.
He thought the name of it was called the Eliminator.
Okay, this gentleman that you interviewed the other night in North Carolina about having open hearings about UFOs coming on the planet Earth and the other.
Right now, I listened to the interview, and to the best of my knowledge, you didn't ask him why the people that you're working with, are you all going to ask for the people in the government who kept this covered up?
Are you all going to ask for a special prosecutor to investigate and prosecute if anybody in the government?
Does it mean if you paid a duplet copy of somebody, does it mean that the duplet copy definitely wouldn't have a brain, but would have the other organs?
A very simple manipulation of a genetic structure could ensure there would not be a brain in the clone being.
So in other words, you could literally breed a being for the organs only without the ethical problem of dealing with a human or a soul if a clone would have a soul even.
unidentified
If you want to make the copy of art fail, could you, if you wanted to, have the clone to have a brain, if you chose to?
There are those who would suggest cynically that to clone me would be to put out a brain anyway.
I understand.
All right.
Well, look, what I'm trying to say is that you could eliminate essentially the ethical argument by ensuring that the clone did not have a brain, but in every other way had organs that would be immediately available and absolutely compatible with you physically, and that temptation is going to be entirely too great for those who want to live.
So I think that those who are walking around today, giving the interviews on newscasts that I'm hearing around the country, talking about, but why would we want to do that?
They're either very naive or simply prevaricating.
Well, for example, on a scanner, when you listen to a digital signal, you hear nothing.
You hear an increase in the noise floor, the white noise maybe, you know, the k sound.
But you don't even hear anything that resembles a human voice.
So to reassemble that would be technically so difficult that, you know, these digital security channels, that's what you're talking about, right?
Yeah.
Meaningless.
That just means that there's a digital signal that's changing your frequency every now and then, jumping to a clear frequency, and there is no more real protection for you than a regular.
What you want is a total digital, true digital phone.
Not digital security codes.
That's meaningless.
Then you've got an analog signal.
I can sit and listen to you all day on that.
unidentified
Okay.
And the other thing I want, I appreciate that.
The other thing I wanted to ask you about was with Mel.
Yes.
And this, I think it's almost like going back to the whole thing with Hale Bop and the fraud or the potential fraud and trying to go back and find out what the story was.
And I'm saying with Mel, here's a person who's taken a lot of your time, he's taken a lot of our time, and he's making some very bold statements about what he has.
And if you have his phone number...
No, and I know you do.
That means not you, because I know you don't have the time, but there are people who have the ability to go out there and find out whether this man is wasting our time or whether he's got something.
But without his permission, I'm not just going to willy-nilly give his phone number out.
That's what I said.
I've got a message into him now requesting permission to give his phone number to the press.
Now, if he refuses to allow that, I would say that would increase the suspicion of many that his story is a whale of a tale.
I do not put Mel's story into the same class as the Hailbot business because with the Hailbop business, we had a tenured professor at a major U.S. university giving us physical evidence that turned out to be fraudulent.
Mel is giving us a whale of a tail and so far has supplied no physical evidence for examination.
No, a cavern, as I understand it, is something that runs either at an angle down or even up or horizontally, but not a vertical, precise vertical hole in the ground.
unidentified
But if you've got filament with the wind blowing on it and you're trying to drop this and he's saying 18 miles or 16 miles, if you've got wind blowing and this thing is very, very light, you're not able to tell yourself.
We're going to get to hear HAARP online pretty soon.
There's a big HARP test coming up.
We've got the frequencies on the website and the transmit time.
So if you're Ham or SWL out there, check it out.
Hey, we are coming to Alaska.
Boy, are we ever coming to Alaska.
Now, what I would like you to do is to get out a pen.
Would you please?
Because when we come back from the break, I'm going to give you the numbers for the Alaskan cruise.
Now, there are a lot of Alaskan cruises out there, folks.
You'll hear other people talking about cruises going hither and yon.
But the cruise that we're going to take to Alaska is the real thing.
Now, what do I mean by the real thing?
I mean that when we get to Alaska, we're not just going to cruise by the ice, the inside passage.
Oh, yeah, we'll do all of that.
But we're going to go see the real Alaska.
And to see the real Alaska, as any Alaskan will tell you, you can't just sort of move on by in a cruise ship.
We're going to do that, all the beautiful sights, but then we're going to do so much more because we're going to Interior Alaska, Anchorage, Fairbanks, Denali.
You'll be seeing the real things.
So run and get a pencil or a pen, and after the break, I'll tell you a little bit about the Alaskan cruise that's coming up and why you're going to want to choose this one.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from February 25, 1997.
ScreenLink, the audio subscription service of Coast2Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
Plus, you'll get streamed and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bells, Summer In Time Shows, and two weekly classics.
And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up today.
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
See, I think there are more secrets out there.
I think Fannie, Freddie, the banks are probably in deeper trouble than we are led to believe.
You have to either say these are just incompetent people or they're following an ideology or maybe even more nefarious, a game plan.
That's what I think is happening.
I don't think that they're stupid people.
I think they have a different agenda than we do.
Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Felix, the amazing cat from Sydney, is only three years old but already has used eight of his nine lives since his adoption by a physician in 1994.
This accident-prone feline has fallen out of a 10th-floor window and lived, suffered a vicious mauling by a Rottweiler and lived, been zapped by a fallen power cable and lived,
choked on a plastic mouse requiring CPR, nearly died from food poisoning after eating spoiled fish, been trampled by an angry bull, slipped from the deck of a ship into the Pacific Ocean, and was finally run over by an ice cream truck.
The question should be, why can't he get into some of the mid-size radio markets?
And the answer to that, I can give you.
It's because of the kind of material he does.
If Howard Stern eliminated about 1% of the totally grossest kind of stuff that he does, he'd be in those radio markets that you're talking about.
As it is, you know, he plays in New York, he plays in L.A., he plays in the large city, sophisticated, we've heard everything kind of markets, but he doesn't play in Peoria.
Well maybe Washington is littered with these endless bottomless pits.
unidentified
Yes.
I can't I've I got to get my breath because I can't believe I got through because I've been dying because I've been hearing people bad mouthing his story and stuff like that.
Well I mean you know it's a wild story so people tend to disbelieve and it's their right to do so.
In fact I'm not even sure myself.
I tried to ask him as many questions as I could think of.
unidentified
No, I totally believed him because I've been to a hole just somewhere and he was like explaining how wide it was and like enough for a refrigerator and stuff like that.
And it was like the same width and all that.
Because I remember like throwing rocks down there and not being able to hear like when it hits the bottom.
It's gone so far down.
You know I've never like put fishing line down or anything like that but I've heard you know like throwing rocks and all you can hear is just hitting it the sides but then you don't hear any more echo or anything like that.
You know doggone I meant to ask Emily Lau about that earlier but I forgot you know from Hong Kong I had her on earlier you may not have heard that.
All right thank you very much.
I mean she could be on the lookout for the other end of Mel's hole.
But Emily's got a lot more to worry about.
I have got now I know this is the weekly world news, but somebody sent me this story and it shows a picture of this guy, Ray Burgard.
His name is, was, is, he's alive.
And it says impotent no more.
Guys, you won't want to try this at home, even though one man swears it worked for me.
He cured his impotence with a blast to the groin from a stun gun.
That's right.
Ray Brigard, it says, had been impotent for eight years when he decided to take aim at himself with a stun gun and fire away.
Now today he's perfectly sexually active and showing no side effects whatsoever.
But even the, quote, brave 42-year-old says that he wouldn't suggest this dramatic cure for everyone.
He said, it hurt, believe me.
He said, it hurt a lot.
And a friend of mine who's a nurse said I could have damaged myself permanently, but in my case, I just had a wild idea that somehow it might help, and believe me, it did.
Impotence had taken its toll on him.
He blames the condition for ending his marriage in 1992 and making his social life miserable in the following years.
Well, sure.
Said, I'd always been pretty successful with the ladies, and for 11 years I had a beautiful wife, but I'd lost my manly abilities.
Everything went down the drain.
My wife left me, and I couldn't keep a steady relationship.
Anyway, check this out.
On August 18th, apparently, in desperation, he took this stun gun into his hand, and what he did is he called an ambulance, called 911, moments before he pulled the trigger on the stun gun, down to his groin area, pulled the trigger, said, quote, I think I had a direct hit.
But to tell the truth, the next thing I remember was waking up and seeing the ambulance worker standing over me.
The pain was incredible.
I thought for sure I'd done the wrong thing, but the next day all of his sexual abilities returned.
And then to top it off, it shows a picture of this stun gun, probably about 100,000 volts or something.
And at the end of the story, it has a medical warning.
It says, stun guns are dangerous.
Don't try this without a doctor present.
Can you imagine walking into a doctor's office with your stun gun, you know, and just having him present while you pull the trigger on yourself?
Yeah, and I know there's a lot of lava tubes and stuff around here, so who knows what it could be, but maybe the entire Northwest is littered with this kind of thing, you know?
unidentified
Yeah.
But I was thinking that he mentioned something about a circle of stones, right?
And this guy is like an Indian guy who knows pretty much all the legends.
I mean, I went there when I was a grade school kid, and he knows all the legends and stuff, and has like a big public service thing he does.
And so I figure, you know, maybe Mel should give him a call and see what he can tell him about any legends that Indians might have about these holes or something.
And I don't know what the acoustic effect of lava rock would be, but I mean, the ape caves were found by some guy that just stumbled on the opening one day, like, caved in in front of him.
And he discovered these, like, it's about a mile long, I think, total.
Well, I mean, I'm sure David Oates saves up a lot of the interesting interviews that I do, knowing that he's going to eventually be back on again doing reversals.
And so I'm sure that you'll hear some reversals on Mel.
Coast of Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device users, specifically for the iPhone and Android platforms.
Now you'll be able to connect to most of the offerings of the Coast website on your phone in a quick and streamlined fashion.
And if you're a Coast Insider, you'll have our great subscriber features right on your phone, including the ability to listen to live programs and stream previous shows.
No special app is necessary to enjoy our new mobile site.
Simply visit CoastToCoastAM.com on your iPhone or Android browser.
Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast2Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you and the iPhone app.
You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up.
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by a mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
Governments won't do that.
And the reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
Absolutely not.
You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
Now we take you back to the night of February 25th, 1997, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Anyway, I'm thinking maybe these Scottish scientists should hook up with Nell and conduct a human pony experiment, round up a few politicians and bureaucrats and see how long it would take to fill up that hole.
I mean, what if you began tossing politicians in and multiples of them came back out or they came back out more powerful than ever?
I mean, it's no wonder the government may have confiscated the damn thing.
unidentified
Yeah, that's the thought, Art.
One more thing.
You know what's a controversial guest you get there from time to time, or basically all the time, have you ever considered getting that gentleman that invented the psychological stress evaluator, the voice stress analyzer?
I think it would be to take some of your past excerpts from tapes and stuff and put them to the test, find out if some of these guys are really for real or if they really believe what they're expounding.
But if you went in there with an ABC mask, I guarantee they'd pin your butt up against the wall, and they'd figure you had something horrible with you that you were all set to set loose on an airplane.
I know they would.
And you know they would, too.
Or I suppose you could try and make your case through the mask.
Paulie Shore, Warren Christopher's Smile, Branson, Missouri, Fred Drescher's Voice, Cop Rock, Suddenly Susan, Campaign 96, Pierre Salinger, and Pat Boone in a Metal Mood.
unidentified
Boy, I would agree with just about every one of those.
I wanted to tell you, we've made arrangements to have our meeting taped this Saturday night, and we'll get you a copy off.
I'm sure that souls, if they do come into our bodies like they talk about, I'm sure they would, you know, get any kind of an empty shell that they could.
And so it may be that cosmically only one soul is allocated per DNA strain.
unidentified
Well, that's for somebody else to decide.
Hey, listen, I've got an Elevatron story for you, a great one.
All right.
I've been telling my friends that I've been getting all these mystical powers from a lot of concentration and a lot of time off of work because I'm not working right now.
I'm on disability.
And I've been spooking him about a few things.
Like, you know one of those bulbs that's in a vacuum and has a black and a white side fins in it and spins when you put light on it?
Yeah.
Okay, so I've been telling him that I've been able to get that moving a little bit and everything.
I've really been pumping him up.
One day, with the help of his wife, I brought over my Levitron to the dining room table.
I took off the cover and opened up the leaf.
I shoved the Levitron magnet, the base, in between, covered up the dining room table with the cloth.
That's a pretty dirty trick because they're going to think you're doing magic.
Another way to make people think that you have power is when they hurt themselves, like stub their toe or something, you immediately, without hesitation, tell them that you did that, and if they keep screwing around with you, it's going to happen again.
But you thought the government could hold that kind of information, and I called the UW Seismology Lab, and there's no way anybody can predict an earthquake.
Second point, too.
The last time I tuned into you, it was Alien Lovers.
But people can't believe that I do a lot of things.
I'll do anything.
I keep telling people I'll do anything.
They don't believe me.
And then when I demonstrate it, they go nuts.
unidentified
Well, I am enjoying listening to you again, and I hope when you do your last cruise, because I did do a cruise, but I was up in Denali in early September.
I saw it for years, and it's just the most unbelievable thing you will ever see.
Shimmering, firing across the sky.
It's just, it's amazing.
unidentified
Well, and I think if you, if, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to be taking your cruise, but I know that the Alaska is a huge destination now for the Japanese because they believe that if they conceive their child under the Aurora Borealis, it will bring good luck to the child.
I saw it for years, and it's just the most unbelievable thing you will ever see.
Shimmering, firing across the sky.
It's just, it's amazing.
unidentified
Well, and I think if you, if, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to be taking your cruise, but I know that the Alaska is a huge destination now for the Japanese because they believe that if they conceive their child under the Aurora Borealis, it will bring good luck to the child.