All Episodes Plain Text
Feb. 6, 1997 - Art Bell
04:50:07
19970206_-_Coast_to_Coast_AM_with_Art_Bell_-_Full_Moon_Open_Lines_-_Captain_Crunch

Art Bell welcomes new affiliates and announces a European vacation while discussing the Centennial Park bombing, Flight 800 theories, and a mysterious goat attack. The broadcast features extensive interviews with telephone hacker John Draper, known as Captain Crunch, detailing his blue box exploits, collaboration with Steve Wozniak, and arrest in 1972. Draper addresses modern encryption fears, government surveillance, and the K-Rat movement amidst reports on Timothy McVeigh's motives and Clinton's budget. Ultimately, the episode blends conspiracy theories about supercomputers and phone tapping with technical insights into early hacking culture and privacy struggles. [Automatically generated summary]

Participants
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a
art bell
01:45:40
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john captain crunch draper
43:35
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Speaker Time Text
Suspects and Bomb Theory 00:15:09
art bell
From the high desert and the great American Southwest desert country right out here in the middle desert country actually from the Tahitian Hawaiian Island chains all the way east over flyover country to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Isles south into South America north to the Pole and worldwide on the internet this is Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning everybody.
I'm Arcel.
unidentified
Great to be here.
art bell
It's another week underway.
I've got a couple of fast announcements to make.
Number one is welcome KSMB San Diego as we switch affiliates to the big 50,000 watt clear channel KFMB.
Welcome to Live Overnight Talk Radio.
Good to be here.
The second, also a big announcement, WMZQ AM in Washington, D.C. The nation's capital.
Glad to have you on board too.
So we lighted off Torch It Off in Washington, D.C. this morning.
And so it is going to seem a little strange, I'm sure, to the people in Washington, D.C., although you're in for a real treat, but I'm about to go on vacation.
I've actually been doing this show for about a dozen years, and it's been about a year and a half or so.
So I'm about to take off on a vacation, but you will never notice the difference.
As a matter of fact, it will be a wonderful opportunity for the people of Washington, D.C. to see what the show is all about, because we are going to be replaying some of the very best programs and best interviews recently.
Now, as you know, Friday night, Saturday morning, we had Richard Hoagland here.
unidentified
Sort of.
art bell
The bombing in Centennial Park occurred, and we had to begin dealing with that, so we put off the interview, and a lot of you will not have known it because no doubt your stations broke away to talk endlessly about the bombing.
And so you missed it.
Richard Hoagland is coming back this Wednesday night, Thursday morning.
Then Thursday night, Friday morning, I will be here to do the program for as long as I can.
I think until about 3 a.m. Pacific time.
And then I will grab my packed bags and take off for the airport and turn the reins of power of this home over to my sister, who will be here during the time I am gone.
I do the program from home, incidentally.
And I'm on my way to Europe.
Somebody asked me what the schedule is going to be.
And actually, I've got schedule here someplace or another.
Let me look at it.
To give you a very brief idea, let me see.
I arrive in Copenhagen.
I'm going to be going to St. Petersburg in Russia.
We'll be there a couple of days.
During that time, we're going over to Moscow.
We're going to be going to Helsinki, Finland, Stockholm, Sweden, Visby, Sweden, Guatemala, and Berlin in Germany.
Denmark, Oslo, Norway, Dover, England.
So, as you can see, I'm going to be all over the place.
And that'll be at the end of the week this week.
And then we will begin a series of replays that a lot of you have been waiting for.
Frequently interesting interviews done at the end of the week.
Lately, as you may have noticed, we have precluded and not run them on Sunday night, Monday morning.
Well, there was a reason for that.
We were saving them up.
And so our new listeners in Washington are going to get to hear a couple of weeks of the most incredible radio I think there ever has been.
Tonight, I don't know what the hell we're going to do.
I'm going to catch you up on...
By the way, this is Open Line, unscreened talk radio.
I guess I ought to tell the people in Washington, D.C. that.
I don't know what you tell new people about this program.
It is never the same, night to night.
unidentified
Never.
art bell
It's always something different, something strange.
We lean toward the unusual, sometimes even bizarre.
You'll notice, for example, there is a full moon up there tonight.
Well, it's full as of midnight or something.
So, expect the unexpected.
Also, one other little thing.
A very old acquaintance of mine, I guess I better be careful here, a man some of you who are old enough will remember the world's first real hacker, Captain Crunch.
Do any of you know of Captain Crunch?
I mentioned him on the air the other night.
We were talking about interesting people.
And his name came up, and lo and behold, Captain Crunch is still out kicking around.
He's still out there.
So, at some point, any point really, Captain Crunch may call in.
And if he does, we will interview him.
He is a very remarkable man, the real inventor of what was called the telephone blue box, which, that's a long story.
He'll tell you.
Anyway, the FBI got interested in the captain.
And I can't recall exactly.
It seems like the captain might have done a little time.
unidentified
I can't remember.
art bell
We'll ask him about that anyway.
unidentified
He's a cool guy.
art bell
I interviewed him about 20 years ago in Central California.
And so the captain may call.
One other person that will mean nothing to the people in DCI.
I talked to last night.
We might even have him on tomorrow night.
Madman Markham.
Do you remember Madman Markham?
unidentified
No?
art bell
Well, this guy, it's an affectionate phrase.
It's actually Mike Markham.
And he sort of built a time machine, and there are updates.
Madman has secured himself a large generator.
Very big generator, as a matter of fact.
And he is now independent of the phone company and doing heaven knows what.
So we may interview Madman.
Now, to the serious news.
Serious voice here.
The FBI has released the transcript of a brief warning phone call made before Saturday's bombing in Olympic Stadium.
Actually, not stadium, park.
It simply said, quote, there's a bomb in Centennial Park.
You have 30 minutes.
FBI, apparently, of some suspects in mind.
They say it is a short list.
Sounds like they're trying to pick a vice president.
They've got videotapes.
They've been collecting them.
And they apparently are fairly close to arresting this person.
Now, obviously, if this person turns out to be domestic, which they probably will, pipe bomb, and connected with some underground movement, possible, then we've got a whole new thing on our hands.
Flight 800, they are leaning toward the bomb theory.
Looks like the front of the 747 got blown away.
The back portion continuing in sort of flight for two or three minutes.
Hopefully the passengers were not alive during that time.
They may well have been.
God, that would have been horrible, horrible.
And then exploding and crashing into the sea, so it scattered out over as much as 40 miles.
Eight more bodies collected today.
And there was a terror conference, sort of, at the White House.
Both parties rushing in.
A bipartisan talk about terror.
I don't know what good it's going to do.
I just don't.
If it is a bomb, they're leaning toward the bomb theory, and I'm hoping for the bomb theory.
As you know, I'm leaving on TWA Flight 866 from Kennedy.
A 747 traversing the same exact territory toward Copenhagen.
And so naturally, I'm thinking, better a bomb.
Because the odds of that happening twice are A, slim, and B, security has been beefed way up.
But, you know, I wonder what they were saying to each other at the terror conference.
Because what if it was a missile?
unidentified
I mean, what do you do about that?
art bell
You could have increased security in dog-sniffing this and that at the airport and big million-dollar machines until the cows come home, and they're not going to sniff out somebody down line with a stinger or a Russian missile or whatever.
And by the way, while we're on that topic, I got a very interesting message on the...
Yeah, check this out.
Check this out for comfort level.
A San Francisco examiner, as two undercover federal agents met with a wealthy businessman in San Francisco to consummate an illicit deal for 2,000 automatic rifles, they were offered a far deadlier prize, missiles.
Besides offering to sell the agents heavy machine guns and silenced machine guns, great.
The arms dealer said he could also secure red parakeet surface-to-air missiles that he promised could take out a 747 airliner, according to a federal affidavit.
Great, huh?
unidentified
Just great.
art bell
Hi, Art.
As with the downing of Flight 800, no one yet has come forward to take credit for the bomb blast in Atlanta.
As much as we all hope that foreign terrorists are responsible, there really is a strong possibility our own citizens might have done it.
Are they members of some domestic right or left-wing political group?
I doubt it.
Odds are, the perps of these crimes, that's perpetrators, are just a few of the thousands of nutball cases running around our fruited plane.
My greatest fear is that just as with the black church fires, the publicity and massive media coverage of these tragedies is going to spur even more senseless acts.
The criminals behind these crimes have succeeded in disrupting the Olympics, but not ending them.
On their face, the Olympics seem to be about physical skill and strength, but in reality, they're more about dedication, determination, and character.
The same can be said about America.
And that is why terrorism will never defeat us.
More comforting or quickening news for you.
Federal prosecutors in Seattle have charged eight people with this conspiracy after the FBI seized height bombs and machine guns in weekend raids.
unidentified
Good heavens.
art bell
Officials say agents arrested five of the suspects at a bomb-making class in Bellingham, Washington, north of Seattle.
A bomb-making class.
unidentified
Great.
art bell
A criminal complaint identifies four suspects as members of the Washington State Militia.
unidentified
Yikes.
art bell
The other four suspects are said to be members of a Seattle, quote, Freeman, end quote, group.
Prosecutors charge the suspects intended to arm themselves for eventual confrontation with the U.S. government or the U.N.
unidentified
This is just great.
art bell
Welcome to the Age of Terror.
I guess, you know, at the end of the year when they do the retrospective, this will be called the year terrorism came to America.
This is kind of an interesting, by the way, my webpage is down.
I'm sure Keith will notify me if it comes back up again.
But some server somewhere went and that was it.
So the web page at the moment is down.
Art, I've just come back from visiting a massive crop formation in the field next to Stonehenge in Wiltshire, United Kingdom.
So here is somebody who stood there.
The symbol is known as a Juliuset and is named after the mathematician who invented it and paved the way for many of the theories mathematicians now have about fractals.
It is so incredibly intricate and mathematically perfect that the idea of hoax is completely out of question.
As I visited there, military helicopters flew overhead several times, coming in close to study the form.
But how can anybody not see that something strange is happening?
Or at least acknowledge there is something that our present science cannot even come close to explaining.
This is probably the most stunning formation yet.
It was formed on the 8th of July at between 5.30 and 5.45.
A field situated next to a major truck road which would have been extremely dizzy at the time.
A pilot making a routine commercial flight said that no formation was there when he flew at 5.30.
He always looks down at Stonehenge.
It's a matter of habit.
The farmer discovered it at 5.45 p.m., stating he was in the adjacent field at 5.30, didn't see or hear a thing.
Crop Circle Mystery 00:01:33
art bell
So don't bleed the military on this one if they say it is of no defense significance.
Why then are they monitoring the field by constant overflights from Bobcombe airfield, or Bottom Down airfield, I guess it is.
Come on then, skeptics and debunkers.
Let's see you explain away this one.
This should be really entertaining.
Yes, a quote from one farmer, when asked if he did it, he said, quote, only if I painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling as well, end quote.
So, If and when my webpage gets back up, you can certainly go take a look at this crop circle.
It is really exciting.
And then this on, Dear Art, I have been having fun, as you, with the chupacabra business until now.
Bear in mind what you're hearing comes from Boulevard, California.
Finally, an incident with one of our goats is completely unexplainable.
In the wee hours of Friday morning, we found a 75-pound year-old buck dead in one of the pens.
Cannot Explain This One 00:02:55
art bell
There was no sign at all about any problem except for six puncture wounds, guess where, on its throat.
The wounds were fairly evenly spaced, about half inch apart, punctures about 8 and 8 inch across.
No blood coming from any of the wounds.
But there was the appearance of dried saliva on the goat's hair surrounding the wounds.
This was a healthy buck, which would have sired many prize-winning kids had it not died of whatever.
Most of the weird things that happened on this farm of 400 dairy goats can be explained.
But I cannot explain this one.
We'll be right back.
The new year is here now, and many of you have made a promise, or you should have, to make more money and better your life.
One does generally equal the other.
Money is not everything, but it's pretty nice when you have it.
And when you think about your future, our future, collectively, do you see it getting better or worse?
Some financial pundits have just about made commodities a dirty word to heck with them.
The fact of it is, if you learn the ins and outs of how to do it, how to approach it with the right attitude, commodities can pay off big time.
Ken Roberts is a nationally known financial educator and multi-millionaire investor.
He has taught, literally now, tens of thousands of people how to invest in commodities and manage your own money without depending on a broker.
Now, we've had this ad on for some time.
And I've had a lot of faxes and email and snail mail from people who, and the post office, by the way, doesn't like that term, snail mail.
I've been getting some objections.
Anyway, I've had a lot of feedback from people who have taken the course.
And they're making money.
What counts?
The way it works is you trade on paper.
When you're ready, when you know that you know what you're doing, only then do you begin using real money.
unidentified
It works.
art bell
Now, if you'll dial the number I'm about to give you, they'll send you an audio cassette and a 44-page report that explains the whole thing.
And it is free.
So, want to better your life?
Here we go.
The number is 888GOLDKRC.
Valentine's Day Flowers 00:03:02
art bell
That's 888-GOLD, G-O-L-D, K-R-C.
In numbers, it's 888-465-3572.
Right now, as you know, February 14th is approaching.
unidentified
February 14th.
art bell
What is that?
Oh yes, that's Valentine's Day.
You do have one, don't you?
Well, to please your Valentine, I would like to suggest, respectfully, absolutely fresh flowers.
A flower farm in Southern California.
All they do is grow miniature carnations as far as the eye can see, miniature carnations.
So they sell them to you at a wholesale rate.
What that means is your Valentine will get this incredible shipment of flowers.
I mean absolutely gigantic.
She'll love them.
unidentified
She'll love you.
art bell
It's a good idea.
It's $42.95.
It includes a card from you with your message and name all handwritten.
Very personal, very emotional.
Exactly the right thing to do.
unidentified
Call now.
art bell
The number is 1-800, and they'll be delivered just at Valentine's.
Okay, for about that.
1-800-562-6438.
That's 1-800-562-6438.
Absolutely fresh flowers.
Well, guess what?
Something that I've been looking for has arrived.
unidentified
Here it is.
art bell
I've been looking for this record all over the place, so it is now part of the bumper stash.
This is Maxine Nightingale.
How many of you remember?
unidentified
Oh, my God!
We gotta get it right back to the start of all.
Love yourself.
We gotta get right back to the stars.
art bell
I'm Tonya.
This one's in my phone.
unidentified
Yes, sir.
Yes.
I believe those things last year.
art bell
You know how long I've been looking for this record?
Long time.
unidentified
We've got to get right back to the start of all.
Be right back.
National Willkip Solutions 00:03:44
unidentified
This is the CBC Radio Network.
Now, I'm well on the way to paying the college tuition for my five daughters.
What you do with your money is your business.
How you can make more of it is ours.
Individual Investor Magazine is focused on one thing, results.
Each month, individual investor seeks out undiscovered companies on the way up and distills that valuable information into simple, detailed profiles that you can act on.
They helped me earn the money to start my own company.
art bell
Individual Investor highlights growth stocks on the verge of exploding and the hottest mutual funds.
I went with one of their picks, and it doubled in one year.
unidentified
For the fourth year in a row, Individual Investor's Magic 25 stock picks beat the experts and the indexes.
And so did our readers.
For $22.95, get one year of Individual Investor Magazine, the Magic 25 issue, and monthly updates.
art bell
To get Individual Investor, call 1-800-917-8400.
unidentified
What do I do with the money I make reading, Individual Investor?
Invest it.
Make more.
When it happens, who will speak for you?
Who will decide what happens to your minor children, your property and personal effects, and you.
Without a current legal will, the courts will make those decisions.
But with the National Willkip, you will make those decisions before it happens.
The National Will Kit is lawyer-approved and winkle in all 50 cities.
It could also help you avoid painful and costly estate litigation.
You'll have a complete and sample will for guidance, information on how to choose an executor and witnesses, even where to keep your will and who should know about it.
You can probably do the whole thing in about an hour.
Order your National Willkip today, and we'll include a free living will guide that assures your wishes will be followed in case of an irreversible injury or illness.
Have a charge card handy and call 1-800-224-1112 to order your national wheelkip.
Only $19.95 plus shipping for the wheelkip and living wheel guide if you order today.
Satisfaction's guaranteed.
Call 1-800-224-1112.
That's 1-800-224-1112.
When the Soviets beat the U.S. basketball team in the 72 Olympics, America was outraged.
When America's superstar speed skater lost in 92, we were shocked.
But when our kids scored 14th in an international mathematics competition, we didn't even notice.
America's schools haven't kept pace with the rest of the world.
We haven't raised our standards as fast or as far as other countries.
As a result, we're losing our ability to compete economically.
But it's not too late to turn things around.
In some places, it's already beginning to happen.
To find out how together we can bring about the kind of improvement we desperately need, call 1-800-96 PROMICE.
We'll send you a free booklet outlining how we can keep the promise of a real education for all of America's children and put ourselves back in the lead.
A message from the Education Excellence Partnership and the Ag Council.
Say, do you have fields, overgrown pastures, even struggy wooded areas you'd like to keep clear?
Well, listen to what Clem Grabner of Fairfax, Virginia has to say about his amazing walk-behind DR Field and Brush Mower.
We have 18 acres on the Shenandoah.
Toll-Free Treasures 00:05:48
unidentified
We camped there.
We used to have this one portion brush hog and then it got so convincing that your mower had to make it pay for itself the first year.
If you're gone a couple weeks, the place is up to your knees again.
So it's been a real pleasure to have it.
Most of it you couldn't, you can't cut with a regular mower.
This mower that we have is just the thing we need.
It's very reliable and it's got a good motor on it.
You can get a big color catalog direct from our factory all about the DR Field and Brush Mower.
Just call toll-free 1-800-FIELD 13.
That's 1-800-F-I-E-L-D 13 for your free color catalog all about the amazing DR Field and Brush Mower.
Well, I volunteer at the school, you know, and I'd see her sometimes with a rough crowd, but she was thinking of them.
Most people are afraid of me.
They don't even talk to me.
It's not right, a kid like that, hanging around with nothing to do.
She just walks right up to me and said, I like your work.
Nobody's ever said that to me before.
I want to see you paint something, I told her.
And that's all it said.
She got me to do it.
I liked it, because painting makes me look at things.
It's different.
Always, kids, helping you make a difference.
art bell
CBT, Chancellor Broadcasting Company, for the strange and unusual, It's Greenland with Art Bell.
When we discuss on Greenland's two fascinating areas.
Is there life after death and are we alone in the universe?
Two ultimate questions mankind's been trying to answer for thousands of years.
We'll be talking about it this week right here on Dreamland.
unidentified
This is an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
You're listening to Art's July 29th interview with telephone hacker Captain Crunch.
And now, back to the best of Art Bell.
I've got him.
art bell
I will not give you his real name unless he says we can do it, but this man is a legend in his own time, literally.
Not of our mind, his own time.
He's actually become a legend.
I interviewed, we'll have to talk about how long ago it was, Captain Crunch.
Now many of you, many of you who hate the phone company, stick around.
You're about to have a good time.
This man's story is legendary to those old enough to remember it.
For the rest of you, you're ready for a treat.
Captain Crunch is coming up.
The VTech digital cordless telephone is $129.95 for a little while longer.
If Newt Gingrich had had one, nobody would have been listening.
Most people, I'm really surprised.
That is the primary reason they seem to be buying this phone.
It wouldn't be mine because I don't say things on the phone that I would mind people hearing.
But it does offer that.
Absolute privacy.
I mean, people with scanners and other portable phones and TVs can't hear this.
It is totally digital.
For me, the advantage is the clarity.
I don't like terrible-sounding phones.
Hum, click, disconnect, you know, the normal kind of thing we get when we get people with portable phones here on the air.
For me, that's why I buy it.
Then there's distance, though I don't, you know, every day I take a walk, and so I know it works a mile from my home.
But of course, I've got a good straight shot here in the deserts.
So what I would say to you is if any one of those reasons are a reason for you to have a good portable phone, then buy this phone.
It is the VTech 900 MHz Digital Telephone.
And right now, it's 129.95.
129.95.
Call Bob Crane in the morning.
He'll send you one.
The number is 1-800-522-8863.
That's 1-800-522-8863.
Now our Senate, the U.S. Senate, which has a bill requiring Treasury to replace our money, the greenback, with a new style of multicolored money.
Ostensibly to prevent counterfeiting.
Call up the black market money, I don't know, whatever.
But somewhere downline, it could also be used to devalue the domestic currency because there'll be two versions, one to use inside the country, one out.
A lot of people, many, don't believe this Senate bill actually exists.
Well, seeing is believing, and we will send it to you free of charge.
Free, I said, without obligation.
Just as information.
Do you want a copy of the bill?
John Draper And The Payphone 00:15:32
art bell
Call 1-800-877-9799 today.
North American Trading.
1-800-877-9799.
And now, to a payphone in the wilderness, we go.
unidentified
That's where he is.
art bell
Payphone in the wilderness, I think.
This is, this is Captain Crunch.
Captain Crunch, are you there?
Yeah.
unidentified
Do you hear me okay?
art bell
I do, as a matter of fact.
Captain, can we utter or should we not utter your real name?
john captain crunch draper
I don't care.
It's John Draper.
art bell
John Draper.
John Draper the infamous.
Well, John, a lot of the audience here is young, and they will not remember you, nor will they know you from coast to coast.
John, let me first ask you, how long ago was it that I interviewed you in, I think it was Monterey, wasn't it?
unidentified
Oh, is that where you interviewed me?
Don't you remember that?
art bell
Okay, that was...
john captain crunch draper
Remember when I checked your car for...
art bell
Yes, I do.
Let's not talk about that, John.
How long ago?
That was like, I'm guessing.
unidentified
1972, 73.
art bell
Oh, man.
john captain crunch draper
It was a long time ago.
art bell
Oh, man.
John, we're getting old.
john captain crunch draper
I don't really feel old.
art bell
Well, do you look old?
Yeah, I'm not either.
John, I'm not either.
I'm still, there's more kid in me than I would want to admit.
It's just thinking about that many years ago we did the interview.
Anyway, we need to begin at the beginning, and I know you've told the story a gazillion times to a gazillion people, but there are a gazillion people here now.
And so why are you called, this is a good way to begin.
Why are you called Captain Crunch?
unidentified
Well, Captain Crunch, of course, came from the Captain Cruz cereal.
And back in those days, there was a toy whistle that came in the Captain Crunt's cereal box.
art bell
I remember stuff in cereal.
I used to empty out entire boxes of cereal like all kids did to get down to the good stuff, you know, the prize.
unidentified
Right.
art bell
And they were giving away a whistle?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and apparently if you glue one of the holes up and the whistle, blow the whistle, it's it the pitch is 2,600 hertz, and that's the signal used by the phone company to disconnect a long-distance call.
unidentified
Oh.
art bell
Disconnect it?
unidentified
To disconnect it, yeah.
art bell
To disconnect it.
unidentified
See, you glued up.
art bell
Now, see, I didn't remember that part.
You glued up one little hole, and that produced a 2,600 hertz tone, and that would disconnect a long-distance call.
unidentified
Correct.
art bell
Okay, so, but what good does that do you?
You whistle, you're talking to somebody long distance, and you whistle, and it disconnects, and then you're disconnected.
john captain crunch draper
Right, but the beauty of it is, after you're disconnected, it leaves you on a trunk.
The same kind of trunk that operators use.
art bell
A trunk.
john captain crunch draper
It's just like an open line.
art bell
A big open party line.
john captain crunch draper
Not a party line, just an open line.
It would behave very similar to what an operator's console would be.
unidentified
See, now I don't know.
art bell
I've never been an operator.
So do you hear a dial tone, or what are you left with?
john captain crunch draper
No, you're just left with a silent nothingness.
It's just there.
And what you do is if you wanted to dial three, you'd pulse the whistle three times.
And if you wanted to dial one, you'd pulse it once.
And then if you dial five, you'd pulse it five times.
And you'd eventually dial a number that way.
unidentified
Any number.
Any long-distance number.
Really?
With area code first.
art bell
With area code first?
john captain crunch draper
You wouldn't have to dial the one, though.
art bell
No one first.
Just the area code number?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
And it would reconnect you to another number.
unidentified
Cool.
art bell
Really cool.
I don't know why people think it's cool, the cheap phone company, except that the phone company...
Now, I've got to be very careful here, John, because I have a wonderful relationship with AT&T.
unidentified
They...
art bell
They have provided me with the first ever international toll-free 800 number.
So it should be, please bear in mind, everybody, that what John is explaining and what he did, the, well, you did go to jail, didn't you?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I was eventually caught.
art bell
Went to jail, yeah.
Uh anyway, I was going to say the statute of limitations is far gone on this, but it doesn't matter.
You have paid your debt to society, right, John?
unidentified
Right, and I've told my story through my website.
art bell
Um oh, and oh, I meant to say my website was down, but I understand it is only down through AOL.
Any other person can access it, and I suppose AOL will get it fixed shortly.
In the meantime, if you will give me your website, my webmaster, Keith, will put in a link to yours.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
art bell
So let me hear what your URL.
It's not too long, is it?
john captain crunch draper
No.
art bell
All right, let's hear it.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, it's the usual HTTP:/THAT you always get.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
Then a www.well, like W-E-L-L dot com, C-O-M, a forward slash user, U-S-E-R, another forward slash, and CRUNCH, C-R-U-N-C-H.
And my email address is crunch at well.com.
art bell
All right, that's www.well, W-E-L-L, dot com, forward slash user, forward slash crunch.
unidentified
Correct.
john captain crunch draper
I've got my whole story up there.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
Are there any photographs up there from people?
unidentified
Plenty of them.
Oh, there are.
art bell
So, anyway, you found out all of this about this silly little whistle, and then what did you do with that information, John?
john captain crunch draper
Well, soon after I discovered the whistle, or other people told her to turn me on the whistle, the phone company was slowly switching their equipment to accept what are called multi-frequency tones.
A whistle, when I used it to pulse a long-distance call, that's called the single-frequency tone.
It was just a single 2,600 hertz.
Later on, the phone company decided to use multi-frequency tones.
These are combinations of tone pairs.
art bell
Now, when you press a button on a modern touch tone phone, you hear a dual tone, right?
john captain crunch draper
Correct, but those tones on a touch tone dial are different than the tones used in the internal switching.
art bell
In other words, in the trunking system.
unidentified
Correct.
art bell
I've got you.
john captain crunch draper
They used two tones out of six.
art bell
So you began to get very interested, I presume, in I mean the word is hacking, in trying to figure out how the phone company worked.
In the meantime, had you begun to make a whole lot of long-distance calls?
john captain crunch draper
Initially, when I first discovered it, when the idea occurred to me, I just completely went off the wall.
I was bouncing off the wall and real happy that I was able to do it.
After about the first few calls, where I called a few of my buddies back in the Air Force that I knew, you know, it started getting old, and they just stopped making long-distance calls.
There's nobody to call.
I mean, I didn't have that many people that I knew.
art bell
Yeah, the fun was going out of it because once you call anybody you know who's long distance, they get tired of hearing from you and you get tired of calling.
unidentified
Correct.
john captain crunch draper
So after I've talked just about everything I needed to say to all my long distance friends, which really wasn't that much, I focused a lot of my efforts on understanding the internal codes used by the operators.
art bell
This is called hacking.
It's now progressed, of course, to the computer world.
But this was before all of that, really, and the home computer was a big deal.
So there you were hacking away at their tones.
What did you manage to discover?
john captain crunch draper
Well, we discovered a lot of things.
We discovered, for instance, that it was possible to stack tandems.
Let me explain what that means.
unidentified
Yes.
john captain crunch draper
When you call into, let's say one, let's say you're in Fresno and the area code for Fresno is 209.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
And let's say there's Modesto.
Modesto also has ILIA code 209.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
To reach a distant operator in a distant city, you dial 209121.
121 is the operator code.
I don't believe these codes are used anymore.
This is why I can tell up talk about them.
When that happens, there's no way to distinguish whether you want to call Fresno or Modesto.
So what you do is they add another three-digit code in there.
For instance, if you dialed 209042121, that would specify that you were calling, let's say, Fresno.
And then if you dialed 209044121, that would then specify the other city.
unidentified
I see.
john captain crunch draper
So we call these O codes.
Another name for them are called TTC codes.
That's the internal telephone company jargon for the use of those codes.
art bell
Well, what what good was this doing you?
In other words, you were then in the Modesto area.
I can see how you would get to Modesto or any other city.
And then what?
john captain crunch draper
Well, if you left out the 121 and dialed just 209044, you would get a wink back and you'd get dropped on the Fresno trunk.
And then from Fresno, if you dialed 2 if you dialed 044042, or the other way around, you'd get another wink back and you'd loop back to Fresno and back to Modesto again, one loop, and you'd do it again, and do it again and keep looping back and keep looping back until all the trunks were moving.
art bell
Until all the trunks are busy?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
art bell
And then people can't call out of Modesto?
john captain crunch draper
Only only between the two cities.
Other cities coming into Stockholm and Modesto, it would probably work.
art bell
But you were logging out entire areas, and you were doing this with purpose or just to...
unidentified
We didn't do it to be malicious.
john captain crunch draper
You were having fun.
We did it to understand the system.
And of course, we were very careful not to do it during times during peak calling time.
art bell
What do you mean we, Santa?
john captain crunch draper
Well, me and quite a few other friends that were hacking the system.
art bell
Now, I understand there was a way that this is something I can remember from the last interview.
You told me that you could sort of have some mass hackers party line.
In other words, you guys could find some empty, was it trunk or what?
How did you do that?
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
There existed a phone line in Vancouver, Canada called the 2111 Conference.
To get into it, you could either use a Captain Crunch whistle and dial 604551212 and then whistle it off and then dial with the whistle and then one and you would drop into that conference.
That was the favorite conference to the blind phone kids who can whistle that with their mouths because they have perfect tits.
art bell
Oh there are people who can do this and don't even need a whistle?
unidentified
Correct.
art bell
Yikes.
unidentified
And these became very popular.
john captain crunch draper
In fact it was on one of those conferences that I was officially given the name Captain Crunch.
art bell
How did you earn that?
Sort of the the first or w I mean what burned you uh captaincy?
john captain crunch draper
Well I kept getting on the conference for quite a while and started talking to these kids and I put it up on a speakerphone while I was doing my homework or other studies.
And I'd be listening to them talking all about this phone jargon and I started picking up on it and understanding what was going on.
And then they said, well, we got this other guy from San Jose, John Draper.
unidentified
Are you there?
And I said, yeah, I'm here.
john captain crunch draper
And he says, well, how come you're using your real name?
unidentified
Good point.
john captain crunch draper
And I said, well, I don't know.
He said, why don't you use a a fictitious name?
unidentified
It'll probably be safer.
john captain crunch draper
And I said, yeah, I guess you're right.
unidentified
Well, let's see.
john captain crunch draper
Why don't I just use the name Captain Crunch?
Is that name taken?
They said, nah, that's a good name.
unidentified
Let's use that name.
john captain crunch draper
So I sort of became known as Captain Crunch in the 2111 conference, which was the f my first exposure to a large group of people all over the country that were accessing this big giant party line called the 2111 conference.
art bell
Alright, well Captain, that was the day, those were the days that AT ⁇ T had it all.
They were the phone company, right?
unidentified
Correct.
john captain crunch draper
Only one, the phone company, the phone company.
unidentified
The bells.
art bell
Hi, do you still favor - do you favor - do you have favorite?
AT ⁇ T is still your favorite?
john captain crunch draper
No, I don't use AT ⁇ T. You don't use AT ⁇ T.
art bell
No, I. You know why?
No why?
john captain crunch draper
To charge that 80-cent ridiculous surcharge on calling card calls.
art bell
Oh, I see.
john captain crunch draper
So you can take you to the cleaners on that.
You want to check on that mail messages.
I can get on and off in less than six seconds.
art bell
Well, I noticed that you don't have a regular phone.
You've got a mail service now.
john captain crunch draper
After all, I have voicemail because I don't have a place to live.
art bell
Oh, I see.
Has the phone company banned you forever?
john captain crunch draper
No, I pay my bills just like everybody else.
I have voicemail and I have an inexpensive long-distance service that provides me with exceptionally good rates and six-second billing you're committed to no surcharge with an 800 access number.
art bell
Wow.
john captain crunch draper
And that's, you know, it's a pretty good service.
It's been very reliable and very good.
art bell
Well, uh all right, so here you guys were all having this great meeting and I presume exchanging new discoveries about how to hack.
Is that about right?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
So there you are.
Now, when did you begin to think that the phone company would be unhappy about this and would begin to try and monitor you, if not catch your butt?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was fully aware of that.
And I was very careful not to make any free phone calls from home.
But that didn't preclude me from using a blue box and experimenting around with the O codes.
I felt that if I were to dial into the internal network and not actually make free calls, actually just study and learn how the system went wouldn't would there's this thing with intent here, but my intention was not to be fraught with the phone company.
Captain Crunch's Karma Theory 00:03:48
art bell
You were on a learning curve.
You wanted to learn about the internals of their system more than you wanted to make free calls.
But it was possible, by the way, for you to...
unidentified
Excuse me, just a second.
Yes.
art bell
All right, sure.
You're listening to John Draper, a.k.a. Captain Crunch.
And we're doing a radio interview.
You're like out in the middle of nowhere, huh?
john captain crunch draper
I am at a private campground at the moment, up on Mount Camelpias in Marin.
art bell
Uh-huh.
And that is sort of your temporary home, I take it.
john captain crunch draper
It's one of many places that I usually wind up sleeping.
I've got a story to tell about why I have become this way.
unidentified
It's an interesting story.
john captain crunch draper
It involves hacking, actually.
unidentified
It does.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'll show you.
Well, let me explain.
About a couple of months ago, I was trying to apply for a job, and it turns out that somebody turned me on to a hacking, a hacking mailing list.
unidentified
Oh, no.
john captain crunch draper
And now we're the computers.
art bell
Everybody ought to know that we're talking computers here, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
And in this hacking mailing list, somebody was actually saying a lot of derogatory terms about me that came to my attention.
And I took these messages and passed them to my attorney and my attorney to ask him for advice.
I basically wanted to ask him if they had any legal grounds for a lawsuit for this slanderous material on the net.
But it turned out this very same hacker that was slamming me was also reading my mail.
art bell
Oh, really?
Hacking your mail?
Oh, yeah.
john captain crunch draper
You can imagine how many hackers want to hack Captain Crunchon's mailbox.
art bell
I can, yes, of course.
So there was a war on.
Well, you know, you're almost a public person, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Yes, that's precisely it.
art bell
And I'm sure that's what your attorney told you.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
I mean, it's very hard to sue a public person.
That is sue.
john captain crunch draper
This is the funny part.
unidentified
My intention, of course, was not to sue.
john captain crunch draper
My intention was just to investigate the possibilities at this point.
art bell
Sure.
You can maybe scare the hell out of the guy, maybe.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, in my investigation, the hacker found out that I was talking about him to my attorney and got very mad.
And he started to monitor my mail more.
And he discovered through listening and reading my mail that I was in the process of interviewing Ferris, found out about it, and contacted these potential employers that did not hire me.
art bell
John, do you think this might be karma?
Don't know.
I mean, you know what I mean, don't you?
In other words, in your younger incarnation, you got the phone company.
Now, in later days, the computer people are getting you.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
art bell
I mean, it might be just plain old karma.
And so, in other words, this guy ruined jobs for you.
Well, that is indeed seriously damaging.
And so that's why you are now without job, without home, more or less on the move.
Stop Making Excuses 00:03:48
unidentified
Well, sort of.
john captain crunch draper
I've actually been invited to quite a few places, and I am considering taking up some invitations on these places.
And I'm at the moment just enjoying my freedom of being able to travel around and not have any particular place that I have to go to.
art bell
Freedom is good, isn't it, John?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm enjoying the freedom.
unidentified
And I'm making the best of it.
art bell
John, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour.
Just hang in there.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
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art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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art bell
Things were really cooking at the Safety Belt State Out.
unidentified
That's my wear!
art bell
When we pinched them.
unidentified
Ouch!
Betty gives us a ticket.
That's right, and don't tell me, Betty.
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See, we're gummies.
Then here's something even you can understand.
For a good time, Carl.
art bell
No, fixed.
A ticket?
unidentified
Police are now ticketing low lights to some who don't wear safety belts, so buckle up.
Surely you can give us a break.
No, and don't call me Shirley.
A message from the Department of Transportation and the Ad Council.
USA Radio Network News, this is Ron Jenkins.
The president presented his blueprint for the budget for the next fiscal year on Wednesday, and he said he was ready to work on a compromise with congressional Republicans on spending matters.
Cooperative Mood Needed 00:09:19
unidentified
Senator Frank Lautenberg, a Democrat from New Jersey, says it's really a rare day and sees the president's budget arrive alive and well on Capitol Hill, and he says he hopes the GOP leadership stays in a cooperative mood.
art bell
I think the problem is going to be with the more extreme Republican members.
You've heard the commentary.
Will the Republican leadership, with all its good intenses, be able to round up the wild horses and get them in the corral?
unidentified
Most Republicans are reserving comment until they've had a more thorough look at the president's budget.
With a national strike deadline moving just a week away, representatives of the nation's number two airline, American, and its unionized pilots, sat down in Fort Worth Wednesday for the first time in three weeks, but the two signs are far apart.
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That's James Sovich, president of the Airline Pilots Association, who says neither side is budging on the issues.
The president is asking Congress to expand health care to about half to 10 million U.S. children now without insurance and provide short-term coverage to millions of people between jobs.
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An Army friend of Timothy McVay reportedly has told authorities that McVeigh told him the Oklahoma City bombing was intended to foment a general uprising.
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Listen carefully.
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art bell
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unidentified
That's 1-800-WILKID.
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A jury in Cincinnati, Ohio, has decided that nickels and dimes are more important than human kindness.
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art bell
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Captain Crunch's Party Lines 00:15:39
art bell
All right, back now to the captain, Captain Crunch, who found out a way years ago, many years ago now, to defeat the telephone company's internal system.
And he did things like locking up trunk systems, having meetings with his friends in these big party chat trunk basements.
He was so far into the phone company, it wasn't even funny.
John, are you there?
unidentified
Yep.
art bell
Tell me, do they still call you Captain today, mostly?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I sort of like them given the name Crunchman.
art bell
Crunchman?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and that's kind of what I've used for my website.
art bell
I see.
Now it is worth asking you, Crunchman, Captain Crunch, how a person who is now without a home, and that's a long story we began to tell, has a website.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, well, I've been on the well ever since the well started back in 1982, 83, or 84, somewhere in that general area.
art bell
So you jumped right on the computer bandwagon.
john captain crunch draper
Back then, yeah, actually the well people invited me on to comment on some of the hacker conferences that they had way back then.
unidentified
The well was sort of like a local community system.
john captain crunch draper
Conferencing systems.
art bell
Is it kind of like what came before the web?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, much before the web.
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
All right.
Well, look, let us back up a little bit to the telephone company troubles all those years ago.
The FBI finally got on to you.
Right, Captain?
How did they do it?
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
Well, soon after we were playing around with the blue boxes, somebody who was also playing around with blue boxes was using blue boxes as well, totally independent from us.
art bell
Did you build the first blue box?
john captain crunch draper
Probably not the first one.
But one of the first ones.
art bell
One of the first ones.
The blue box was a technical improvement on the whistle, right?
unidentified
Correct.
Well, because basically all the blue box is, is a multi-frequency tone generator.
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
That's all it is.
art bell
Can a blue box still be used?
john captain crunch draper
I don't believe so.
I haven't tried, and I'm not going to.
art bell
Do you hear that, guys?
He's not going to.
You have truly given up your phone hacking days, right?
john captain crunch draper
Absolutely, without a doubt.
art bell
Absolutely, without a doubt.
All right, so anyway, here's the blue box.
This sucker will allow you to access satellites, all kinds of things, right?
unidentified
Right.
So I get a call.
john captain crunch draper
Actually, I get a call from this guy, Ron Rosenbaum, who was working on an article for Esquire magazine called The Secrets of the Little Blue Box.
unidentified
Uh-oh.
john captain crunch draper
And these blind kids begged me to talk to this guy, because these blind kids had already talked to this guy.
I had given him way too much information already.
So I somehow wound up talking to him.
God knows why.
unidentified
You did that idea.
art bell
I did an interview about this?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Oh, cats.
john captain crunch draper
But, you see, the interview was very, was done at a place where I called him, and I called him from a very remote phone.
I don't believe the interview was tapped, even if it was, I don't think there would have been any problem with me.
art bell
Okay, at this point, you were not giving him your real name, right?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, absolutely no way.
art bell
Okay, well, that's not so bad then.
So you did an analysis.
john captain crunch draper
I'm still underground.
I've not been busted.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
So you were just still Captain Crunch, period, and you were doing it.
john captain crunch draper
That was it, yeah.
art bell
All right, well, that's not so bad, I guess.
john captain crunch draper
So I consented to be interviewed by him under certain restrictions that I would give him my real name.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
And the article came out in Esquire magazine, and when it did, it means it hit the phone companies like a bomb.
I mean, their secret was literally out.
It didn't take long before Steve Wozniak, co-founder of Apple Computer, was pawing through the technical Bell journals at his local college and discovered a certain Bell technical journal that gave the frequencies of the little blue box.
He discovered that the frequencies of the little blue box were quite different than the frequencies that were published in Esquire Magazine, which were deliberately given to prevent people from doing it.
art bell
very good.
john captain crunch draper
However, it was, took the free At the time I was working for a community radio station in Cooper Kino.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
And word got out that a friend of Woz knew me and wanted me to contact Woz about this.
art bell
He needed operational help.
unidentified
Correct.
john captain crunch draper
So Woz somehow convinced me or talked me into going down to the or going up to UC Berkeley campus at which time I gave him a demonstration on how to use the thing.
art bell
His jaw no doubt dropped open.
unidentified
Yeah.
He was quite impressed with what you could do with it.
john captain crunch draper
You could call overseas numbers and call anything, you know.
unidentified
I gave him some typical operator code and says here's what you could do with it.
Yeah.
art bell
And eventually do the wild thing at 702-727-1295.
john captain crunch draper
We did not at any time want to use our technology for personal.
art bell
So you didn't, in other words, you didn't want it to be commercialized.
unidentified
Correct.
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
I personally was adamant against any commercial game using this technology back then, though it was making pre-calls and selling them marks.
art bell
You were absolutely a pure amateur.
unidentified
Well, I was a pure hacker.
john captain crunch draper
I was a hacker.
art bell
Well, I amateur as opposed to professional, I suppose, when you turn around and start selling this stuff.
john captain crunch draper
In that context, yeah, I guess you're right.
unidentified
So at this point, Woz was selling these things.
And I remember him putting a little note inside the blue box saying he has the whole world in his hands.
john captain crunch draper
One of the things that Woz did with the box was he called the Vatican and asked to talk to the Pope.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
I once tried to call Castro in Cuba, too.
I didn't get through.
unidentified
I got close.
I actually got close.
art bell
Surprised me.
You can actually call world leaders.
Anyway, so he tried to call the Pope.
unidentified
Interesting.
art bell
I mean, you know, these people are not as inaccessible as you might imagine.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
Soon after that, Woz's car broke down on the way to UC Berkeley, and he happened to be somewhere in Fremont or Hayward.
unidentified
He was at a payphone.
john captain crunch draper
And he decided that he wanted to try the blue box to see if he can call for help on his car.
art bell
Oh, geez.
john captain crunch draper
Well, just as he gets to the payphone with the blue box, a cop car pulls up.
art bell
Oh, boy.
john captain crunch draper
And the cop says, what you doing?
And Woz says, making a phone call.
And the cop sees the blue box and Woz's hand and says, what's that?
And Woz says, it's a music synthesize.
art bell
Good answer.
john captain crunch draper
The cop was playing with the tone for a while with that little acoustical copper thing that they used to put to the mouthpiece to make the call.
The cop hands it back to Woz and says, a guy by the name of Moog beat it to it.
Moog is the person that makes the music synthesize it.
unidentified
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And Woz said, and sort of got in his car and left.
But back then, you know, the police weren't really aware of what the blue boxes could do.
Even though maybe the Esquire magazine article did come out at that point.
art bell
Still, there was not a full awareness yet.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
It took a while for the impact, uh for the uh impact of the Esquire article to hit home.
Uh about a month or so later, um the 2111 conference was getting switched over to the multi-frequencies because I was the 2111 conference was on one of the very few remaining single frequency trunks in Vancouver.
We're switching over now to the multi-frequency trunking.
And all of the phone hackers decided to have one big glass bash at the 2111 conference and have a huge party line to commemorate the staff of the 2111 conference.
And then the phone company was making the cutover to the new switching office.
They were fully aware at this point of all these calls coming to this very strange trunking mechanism.
art bell
Do you think somebody at the phone company was sitting there listening to these parties you guys were having?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I would without a doubt.
unidentified
We didn't really care.
Huh.
john captain crunch draper
We weren't really concerned with that because we weren't really making free calls.
We were only just using their internal trunking.
unidentified
Yeah.
Sort of.
john captain crunch draper
Well, it's just a matter of opinion.
We thought so anyway.
What happened at that point was calls were starting to get traced back to the individuals making the calls.
art bell
Now how many of these people are doing this from their house?
john captain crunch draper
I was actually doing it from my house at the time, but I was jumping on somebody's auto-verified trunk.
The auto-verified trunks is what you use to pop in on somebody else's line.
And with my friend Fred's permission, I jumped in on his line and sat there with bridged across his line.
art bell
Wait, Jump in on somebody's line.
Now, tell me something.
And everybody else, too, at the same time, have to.
There have been many times, not many, but enough, when I've made a call.
And instead of reaching the party, I was trying to call, I get dumped into the middle of somebody's conversation.
And occasionally, I'll yell, hey, and they'll go, hey, who the hell are you?
And there'll be a two-way.
A lot of times, I'll go, hey, and there'll be no answer.
Nobody on.
And yet their conversation just goes on.
How does that happen?
john captain crunch draper
That happens because sometimes the switching equipment screws up and switches on an incorrect trunk.
And if it switches on an incorrect trunk, sometimes it switches just a one-way trunk.
Sometimes it switches a two-way trunk.
unidentified
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And so what you probably got was a one-way trunk where you could hear them, but they couldn't hear you.
art bell
Exactly right.
And so you had the ability somehow to...
john captain crunch draper
Well, yeah, of course, we had the ability of jumping in on a line.
It was the same kind of thing that the emergency operators used to tell the party, talk about the line, give up the call.
unidentified
Oh, right.
art bell
So you had a set of tones that, in other words, you would just dial the number that's busy and then hit some special sequence of tones and boom, you're in the middle of the conversation?
john captain crunch draper
Well, actually, it was quite even simpler than that.
unidentified
We just called out we'd call the operator.
john captain crunch draper
We'd use a loop around and through the loop around we'd call the operator and we'd simply say, operator, would you please put us up on a node test trunk?
art bell
A node test trunk.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and she'd say, yes, sir, and she'd click us in and she'd leave the line.
And then we'd just with the blue box outpulse the last five digits of the phone number that we wanted to tap in on.
unidentified
And we would wait a minute.
art bell
Why would the operator be willing to do that?
First of all, I don't know what a node test trunk is, but why would she be willing to do that?
Did she assume that you were like a repair dynamic?
unidentified
Exactly.
john captain crunch draper
The phone company didn't have a very good mechanism for identifying their own internal employees.
They are the masters of communication, but within their system, their communications was very weak.
art bell
I understand.
john captain crunch draper
And so it was not, it w it was not uncommon.
If you use the right telephone company, DART, it could just simply get the regular old ohm operator to do things for you and put you up on certain lines.
art bell
Yeah, I get that.
I can imagine that's absolutely true.
john captain crunch draper
Because back in those days it was not a problem.
unidentified
Okay.
art bell
So you could do that and then you could jump in on the middle of anybody.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, anybody that's talking on the line.
art bell
Now, here there's a big ethical moral dilemma, of course.
john captain crunch draper
Well, in my particular case, I didn't jump on somebody's line without his permission.
I had his permission to jump on the line.
art bell
Well said, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
When I talked to my friend Fred on his other line, I says, Fred, I'd like to get back in on the 2111 conference.
I just got knocked off.
Do I have your permission to bridge on the line you're already calling on?
He said, sure, go ahead and just mode test up on my line.
I said, okay, fine.
I went and called the operator up, and I said, operator, would you please connect me to a node test trunk, please?
He said, sure, one moment, sir.
unidentified
Click.
john captain crunch draper
And then I'll post his number, and I got right up on Fred's line.
I said, I fed him up.
He said, great.
And then that way I was still able to participate in the conference because my particular incoming line to the 2111 conference had already been knocked down.
art bell
So, I guess the phone company read the Esquire article, they probably went crackers, and said...
unidentified
In a very big way.
art bell
Oh, I can imagine.
In other words, you were a bunch of...
unidentified
That would be the understatement of the year.
art bell
You were like a gnat on Belle's butt, so to speak.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Until the Esquire article.
Now, and then the confirming tones.
And then all of a sudden the whole country had it.
So the phone company went crackers.
I'm sure they called the FBI and said, we're in deep doo-doo here.
If this gets out, we're ruined.
We've got to get these guys.
Well.
Or something like that.
unidentified
Or something like that.
john captain crunch draper
As far as I could tell, what happened next, the phone company basically contacted the Justice Department and the FBI to set up grand jury investigations in about ten different cities all over the country.
The purpose of the grand jury investigation were to subpoena these young kids who they were able to trace back to quite a few people's phone lines that were on the 2111 conference.
Building the Case 00:03:43
john captain crunch draper
They then subpoenaed these people to testify before a grand jury.
art bell
How old were these?
How old were you then?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I was still in my mid-30s.
art bell
You were in your mid-30s.
john captain crunch draper
A lot of these kids were in their 17, 16 years.
art bell
Typical hacker age.
Correct.
unidentified
Yeah.
And so a lot of these kids got visited by the FBI who then said, you are subpoenaed.
john captain crunch draper
And they were then forced to testify before a grand jury who then asked them a lot of questions about who they knew.
And of course my name came up.
art bell
Captain Crunch, the name Captain Crunch, was repeated probably in several grand juries at once.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
So then the Justice Department, I guess, was building a case against you.
Was building a case still, though, they had not walked in on you?
No.
Yikes.
john captain crunch draper
But during that end, then...
art bell
Did you begin... Did you know?
I mean, of course I did.
john captain crunch draper
From that point on, I didn't do anything from home.
I was very careful.
art bell
Oh, I see.
So where would you go?
To friends' houses?
Or to phone booths?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I wouldn't do it from home.
unidentified
I wouldn't do it from a place where it would be easy to trace me.
art bell
Yeah, but wouldn't you be afraid that if, like, you went to a friend's house, they would trace a number to there?
And, you know, I mean, the FBI walking in on you is a very unpleasant experience.
And you tend to talk.
So if they walked in on a friend of yours, just idle thinking here.
john captain crunch draper
Well, that's what happened.
They did talk, and that's why I got excited.
unidentified
I see.
art bell
So you don't have to give me a name, but somebody gave you up, or several people gave you up?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I might say that.
art bell
They just did.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, it's the Paul guy.
art bell
Yeah, so you were living in the Bay Area, right, Sam Tran?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, down in the Las Gavis area, actually.
unidentified
Uh-huh.
art bell
And so they finally, I guess, got a warrant for your grand jury indictment or what?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, so in May 1972, I was picked up just as I was coming home from the college.
art bell
And what did they do?
Did they arrest you on the spot?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, just because I was getting out of my car.
art bell
Well, they needed physical evidence.
Did they have a search warrant go in and...
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah, they went into my place and they found out.
art bell
Well, what did you do?
Did you say, it's not me?
I don't have any idea how those damn things got there.
Somebody must have come in in the middle of the night and left them in my apartment.
john captain crunch draper
Well, after I contacted the attorney, I was told to say nothing.
art bell
Good advice.
So you shut your mouth?
unidentified
Pretty much.
art bell
And then, and so then they probably, they sat you down and sweated you a little, didn't they?
unidentified
No, they took me down to the Santa Clara County polling tank and when the magistrate saw me, you know, or he rather basically released me on my own reconnaissance.
art bell
Was that a good idea?
john captain crunch draper
Well, was it really a flight risk?
art bell
So in other words, you didn't run away.
That's what I was saying.
You remained around.
So you got released.
All right, look, we're at the bottom of the hour.
If I Knew Then 00:03:03
art bell
That's where we'll break and come back and resume Captain Crunch's story.
John Draper, a.k.a. Captain Crunch, the man who had the phone company for some time by the throat.
He is a legend, and he'll be back.
unidentified
Stay tuned for more with Telephone Hacker, Captain Crunch, on this encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
This is CBC.
art bell
Hi, this is R. You know, if I knew what was coming next, I don't think it would be nearly so much fun.
I do a program called Coast to Coast AM, and it's right here throughout the nighttime, the late night hours.
If you can't sleep, or you don't want to sleep, or you just would like to join us for sort of an all-night party, be here.
BBC, Chancellor Broadcasting Company, for the strange and unusual...
It's Greenland with Artell.
What do we discuss on Greenland?
Two fascinating areas.
Is there life after death, and are we alone in the universe?
Two ultimate questions mankind's been trying to answer for thousands of years.
We'll be talking about it this week, right here on Dreamland.
unidentified
This is Roger Frettenberg, radio's a regular guy.
Experts, kind of, kind of, you know-it-all.
Always make a big mistake underestimating the regular guys in Dallas in America today.
And if you enjoy a blood sense of humor and a head-on approach to issues, then of course join me, Roger Fredenberg, Radio's regular guy.
Lend that town.
Hallelujah, Bill.
The guy, a man to call, big bad deal.
I want to tell you, he sure wasn't helping to do stuff here.
America's increasing interest in alternative medicine is the basis of my talk radio network program.
Hello, I'm Deborah Ray, host of Here's to Your Health.
We bring you the latest information on research, books, and products related to natural health.
And you always have the opportunity to call with your questions and comments.
Here's your help as heard right here on Talk Radio Network.
Conquer Negative Emotions 00:06:17
art bell
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unidentified
Don't mail in your tax return.
art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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unidentified
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The sanguine has a wish out of talent.
Fortunately, since 1971, the Foundation Fighting Blindness has been working on a cure.
art bell
In fact, their research may just save your sight or that of your loved ones.
unidentified
Look, Mommy, another thought.
For information on retinitis pigmentosa, macular degeneration, and other retinal degenerative diseases, call 1-800-394-8280.
Yes, mommy.
The Foundation Fighting Blindness.
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Because it takes vision to find a cure.
Try the Dave Dawson Show.
It's Habit Forming.
art bell
Hello, I'm Dave Dawson.
unidentified
Now, you may be asking, who the heck is Dave Dawson?
Well, I'm a friend.
I think.
I'm a political analyst.
I'm a student of social change.
I'm a curious onlooker.
Some say I'm surprising, disarming, and plugged in.
Some even say I'm a teddy bear.
Oh, and I almost forgot.
I'm the host of a radio talk show called of all things, the Dave Dawson Show.
art bell
Dave Dawson, right here on this top radio network station.
unidentified
While Art spends a few more days in the warm sun of Mexico, Chancellor Broadcasting Company presents the best of Art Bell.
Tonight, we take you back to last summer, July 29th, to our five-hour interview with longtime telephone hacker Captain Crunch.
Captain Crunch is on time for his best of phone service as he passed from high-tech front lines at the phone company.
Look for Art to return to the airways live next Tuesday night, Wednesday morning.
So here it is, five hours with Captain Crunch.
That's tonight, Thursday night, Friday morning on this, The Best of Art Bell.
art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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That number again is 1-800-557-4627.
Remember, if you don't lose the weight, you get the money back and you keep the cream.
Now, Vice President Al Gore has said, rightfully, that telecommunications is by all odds the most important lucrative marketplace of the 21st century.
Well, it certainly is.
And SMR is what they're developing, specialized mobile radio.
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Dispatch to Safety 00:15:42
art bell
Write the number down that I'm going to give you.
Better yet, call it now.
1-800-444-1049.
They will dispatch to you after a couple of questions.
A free video and all the information you need to make the right choice.
It's 1-800-444-1049.
Well, all right, back now to Captain Crunch.
And here he was in the not-so-gentle hands, no doubt, of the FBI.
And they had you in custody.
They had you in Poké, in fact, right?
unidentified
Right.
art bell
So, what happened?
unidentified
Well, I stayed in the holding tank about four hours.
john captain crunch draper
And then I got to see the magistrate in the morning.
unidentified
And the magistrate released me.
art bell
On your own OR.
Right.
unidentified
Um then I went and contacted my attorney.
john captain crunch draper
I managed to evade the press.
unidentified
There was a couple of reporters there, as I recall.
john captain crunch draper
I think John Carroll from the San Jose Mercury was there.
art bell
This was a big story.
As a matter of fact, Captain, it broke nationally, really, didn't it?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah, it w it was in the news.
It was quite newsworthy at the point.
Um what happened was um I believe he actually as I recall I believe one of the reporters actually gave me a ride home.
art bell
Oh really?
No doubt out of the goodness of his heart and uh desiring an interview.
Did you give him an interview on the way home?
john captain crunch draper
Um I told him that I was really not supposed to talk talk about it.
unidentified
I only gave I only showed him the arrest warrant and the police report that I was handed, which was public information knowledge anyway.
john captain crunch draper
I mean they could have gotten it and I found out later that was okay to do.
I went to my attorney's place who prepared the case and they basically had what did he say to you?
art bell
Did he say, hey John, you're screwed?
john captain crunch draper
No he didn't.
He said he was very methodical and very businesslike and says well let's see what they got.
So they went through the discovery process and they discovered that they had some of my equipment and it was illegal if they could possess it.
unidentified
So they had me.
art bell
They had you on possession.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Of a blue box.
unidentified
Of the equipment.
art bell
Of the equipment.
How much equipment did you have?
john captain crunch draper
All I had was a a small blue book.
That was it?
That was it, yeah.
art bell
But that was enough.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Okay, well, so they've got the physical evidence and no doubt they had phone records.
Could they connect?
The next thing they had to do, right, was connect the use of that box.
Because you can possess things.
Well, maybe you can't.
unidentified
Well, they had tapes of my voice on the 2111 conference.
art bell
Oh, that's fair.
john captain crunch draper
Tapes of me tapes of me making calls when I was bridged to the 211 conference with my voice.
art bell
Even worse.
So they had you.
unidentified
Yeah, pretty much.
Um what happened later was I was offered a deal.
art bell
A deal?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
What kind of deal?
john captain crunch draper
I was offered a $1,000 fine of probation for five years.
unidentified
Yep.
If I pled guilty to one of the crimes.
art bell
Possession?
unidentified
Uh no.
john captain crunch draper
Title 18, Section 1343, Fraud by Wire.
art bell
Fraud by Wire.
Wire fraud, by the wire.
unidentified
Yeah.
I see.
After I after I pled guilty for that, I was able to, in the five years, go and have it expunged for my record as part of the deal.
art bell
So it has now been expunged.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
art bell
So this is now, at least that part of your life, is totally behind you.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
When you think back on those days, and I I did a few things, Captain, uh myself, that the statute of limitations fortunately has long since passed on, uh that um that uh that when I look back on them I know it shouldn't be true but they were fun.
Is that the way you look back on that?
Well you probably don't huh because you ended up in jail.
unidentified
Or do you know that part certainly wasn't.
art bell
But the part where we had a lot of fun with the system was were you ever officially contacted by the phone company?
unidentified
No.
john captain crunch draper
I I thought about it and I thought about what I would do if I were contacted and I don't understand why they didn't contact me.
They probably thought I was such an evil person.
unidentified
Evil.
art bell
Yeah, I suppose from their point of view you were evil.
john captain crunch draper
And so they it was like I assumed that they probably didn't contact me because of like asking the asking the fox to guard the hen house.
art bell
Well yeah but that is what a lot of companies like that do.
I mean these days the best of the computer hackers, the subject yet to be covered really, are frequently hired by companies to protect them from their brother.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah they made a bad decision not to hire me because if they would have hired me I would have I certainly would have signed a non-disclosure agreement.
unidentified
I certainly would have shut out.
john captain crunch draper
And instead they throw me in jail and while I was in jail I was exposed to the crane of people that shouldn't have that kind of technology and I had classes in jail.
unidentified
I taught everybody how to do it.
You did what?
art bell
You taught them in jail how to operate blue boxes and whistles and all that really.
john captain crunch draper
Oh everything they wanted to know.
art bell
Oh John.
I've heard that our penal institutions are universities of crime.
Universities of crime and you were a professor to some extent.
Oh geez.
How long were you in school?
unidentified
Well I was sentenced to four months in Lompoc.
art bell
Lompak.
And that was where Lompak is regarded as a with some minimum security.
Minimum standards.
Camp.
unidentified
So it really didn't have any walls.
It didn't have very clearly marked areas which you could not go.
art bell
And of course at this point the nation's you know publicity was all over the place so I guess everybody in jail knew who you were and naturally wanted to know how to do what you do.
john captain crunch draper
I was approached by many people or in jail, yes indeed.
art bell
Did you give them information freely?
unidentified
Initially not because I was really unsure of what was going on.
john captain crunch draper
But when it became very clear what would happen to me if I didn't, I changed my mind.
art bell
In other words, you'd end up with something sticking out of your belly.
john captain crunch draper
Or reasonable practicum thereof.
art bell
Yeah, yeah.
I understand.
So you began to teach people how to do this, and then that's when the information really started to leak out, of course.
john captain crunch draper
Shortly after that, I mean, the things just took off.
unidentified
I mean, everybody would use them.
art bell
And so the phone company was, at this point, they were beginning to lose big money.
unidentified
I would assume so.
john captain crunch draper
It became well known.
unidentified
More and more people, of course, being busted for using them.
art bell
I'm sure as far as they were concerned, the death penalty would have been a light sentence for you if the phone company could have set your penalty.
unidentified
Yeah.
What they should have done was to just say, hey, look, let's hire this guy.
Sure.
I would have worked for him.
Technology.
I would have certainly helped them get rid of quite a few of their bugs.
art bell
Yeah, but John, wouldn't you have felt poorly literally busting your old buddy?
john captain crunch draper
No, because I wouldn't focus on busting my friend.
unidentified
You'd go after the I would agree to work for them under certain conditions, and the conditions are that maybe I fix their system or help them fix their system.
john captain crunch draper
I wouldn't go out and snitch on my fellow man.
Of course not.
unidentified
I see.
All right.
art bell
So you would have just you'd have taken down the, quote, bad guys, end quote.
john captain crunch draper
No, I wouldn't even have taken down the bad guys.
unidentified
I would have just fixed the system for them.
john captain crunch draper
I would have made it impossible to use them.
art bell
How long did the problem ⁇ after you got out of jail, how long do you think the phone company was continuing to put up with massive intrusion?
john captain crunch draper
Well, the phone company, of course, was using a flawed system to begin with.
And their whole system was using this in-band signaling technique.
Back in the 50s, when they were bragging about how they were using the same wire pair for talking as signaling, they thought it was quite clever and economic.
But it turned out to be a very, very major security flaw.
art bell
Achilles to you.
unidentified
Yeah.
So slowly in the mid-70s, early, I'd say mid-to-late 70s, the phone companies started to replace their old in-band signaling system to an out-of-band CCIS signaling system.
Used a separate data path to actually send this information back.
art bell
Well, you're talking over some heads.
john captain crunch draper
What that meant is the signaling information is the phone number that you're calling.
Instead of being sent out to the distant end through tones, it's sent out digitally.
art bell
Now, let me ask you, in the years that have passed, even though, of course, we all know that you have never hacked so much as a single number.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I can't say that.
art bell
I tried to say it for you, John.
What I was going on to say was, technology has changed, and even though I was trying to help you there, John, even though you've never done anything since, have you kept up on phone company changing technology?
john captain crunch draper
To some extent, yeah.
I mean, my notoriety has certainly got quite a few people to contact me who called me up and say, hey, did you know you can do this now?
unidentified
Or did you know you can do that?
john captain crunch draper
And I'd say, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, interesting, but I'm not going to do it.
unidentified
Of course not.
art bell
But it is, thank you, interesting to know, and I appreciate the information.
Is there any law against people passing this kind of information on to each other?
unidentified
Yeah, I believe it's called conspiracy.
art bell
Yes, it probably is.
unidentified
And so you'd be surprised.
art bell
I'm sure I would.
Now, we don't want to be charged with conspiracy here, John, so be careful if you have any modern techniques, let us not talk about those.
unidentified
Oh, of course not.
art bell
But suffice to say, without discussing them, it is still possible to play if one wants to.
john captain crunch draper
I'm sure it is.
I'm sure it's been done.
unidentified
And it's, you know, obviously different than the way it was then.
art bell
And it is against the law, folks, and you should not do that.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, don't play this at home, folks.
art bell
There is a lot of interesting new technology like caller ID, for example.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
And that's so easy to get around.
art bell
Here's a question.
I'm getting them by facts.
Question, Captain.
Are all local calls traceable after the call with new wiretapped technology?
How long is it safe to stay on a line, if at all, before your call can be traced?
unidentified
It can be immediately traced.
art bell
Immediately?
unidentified
Right.
art bell
Now, you know, the guy who called 911, of course, 911 with the bomb threat, they knew exactly what phone that came from instantly, but you're telling us that any local call can be instantly identified.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, using the new digital switch, of course.
art bell
So the old days of keep them online, keep them talking.
unidentified
We've almost got it.
We've almost got it.
art bell
Those days are gone?
john captain crunch draper
They've been gone for about the past seven or eight years.
unidentified
Really?
Yeah.
art bell
Another thing I want to talk to you about, Captain, is they have the National Security Agency in Washington monitors calls.
As a matter of fact, President Clinton right now, because of the terrorism and the horrible stuff going on, is lobbying to be able to do even more of it.
But I understand that back in Washington and at MSA there is this big computer that monitors randomly zillions of calls going on all at the same time for keywords, what are called keywords.
And for example, a word like kilo, kilo, or I'm sure bomb, or, you know, words like that.
And when the computer catches those words, it flags somebody who then records the call, or the call is recorded automatically and then monitored.
Do you know anything about that?
unidentified
I've heard that rumor from many sources.
I see.
john captain crunch draper
As to whether or not that rumor is true, I have no clue.
unidentified
I believe that it would probably be safe to assume that it is true.
john captain crunch draper
However, nowadays, it's certainly possible to keep very secure telephone communications with data encryption programs like PDP.
unidentified
And there's another program.
art bell
It's a pretty good privacy.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
That's a little Zillman's program.
And there's also about a program called PDP Phone, which works on the Macintosh now, the 28.8 pod modem.
art bell
Now, is this so good?
john captain crunch draper
You can use it to actually communicate by voice.
art bell
Right, okay, okay.
But is this so good that even the government could not listen?
unidentified
I'm told that it is.
art bell
Oh, they're not going to like that.
john captain crunch draper
Well, the government for a long time has been cringing on the program PDP.
I mean, it's a very good encryption mechanism.
unidentified
It uses an encryption that is designed and developed in Europe.
john captain crunch draper
In fact, a lot of the PDP code was written from programmers in Sweden.
art bell
Actually, it's in the Z. Actually, they're joking.
It's called PGP, Pretty Good Privacy, but it really is very good privacy, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it's very good.
unidentified
If you use a very large key, it's going to keep those government-craved computers printing for many millions of years.
art bell
Before they decode it, really.
Well, I guess the government does not like the idea that its citizens, and frankly, John, I understand a little of it.
In other words, we've got nutball cases, not like you who's just having fun with the phone company, but nutball cases out there.
You know, it's become a very serious world.
Oscar Mayer Whistle Mystery 00:05:57
unidentified
It's a double-edged sword.
Yeah.
And people want their privacy, but at the same time, criminals can certainly communicate without being tapped.
And so what are we going to do about that?
Well, that's a good question.
I can't answer that question.
art bell
Well, okay, here's an old one maybe you can answer.
Captain, one of the other whistles in use at the time, I don't know this to be true, he says the Oscar Wire.
john captain crunch draper
Oscar Mayer Wiener whistle, yes, that is another whistle that is...
Wait a minute.
art bell
Now, he goes on.
Lots of hot dogs were consumed by blind teenage kids in search of that wonderful whistle, Dave and Byzalia, California.
unidentified
True?
john captain crunch draper
That is true.
The Oscar Marowiner whistle.
unidentified
Yeah, it came out about a year or so after the Captain Press whistle.
art bell
Hey, Captain, here's a couple of calls.
Let's see who we've got.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hi, Mega Kilos from America's Dairyland.
art bell
Ah, Wisconsin.
unidentified
How you doing tonight, Art?
All right.
This is definitely a pleasure.
I just got a question for the captain.
I guess, overall, was it worth it?
You know, what you had to go through after you got caught.
Was it worth that excitement and the fun that you were talking about?
Oh, that's a really good question.
Well, at the time, yes and no.
Yes in the sense of the knowledge that I gained, but no in the sense of all the harassment that I've had.
art bell
Well, as you look back on it now, you can probably put a smile on your face and say, yes, those were wonderful, adventuresome years.
But I'm sure that at the time the FBI walked in, you were saying a very big no.
It's not one worth it at all.
unidentified
Yeah, of course.
art bell
I'm sorry, I'll never do anything bad again in my old wife.
unidentified
Let me go, Mama.
art bell
I want my mama.
That's the way I'd feel.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
It's a natural reaction, I'm sure.
art bell
So there you are, Colin.
unidentified
All right, thanks.
art bell
All right, thank you.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
This is Steve from San Diego.
art bell
Hey, Steve.
unidentified
Hey, I have a couple of issues just run by John here.
First of all, I'm a little put off by your recent finding of Piety about all this.
You were busted three or four times before you finally gave up the ghost as far as your notoriety.
Oh, wait.
art bell
I didn't know that.
Let's ask him.
unidentified
Let me finish.
art bell
I'll let you finish.
unidentified
Hold on.
art bell
I want to find out if that's true.
You were busted three or four times, John?
unidentified
Well, actually, three times, but the second time was because I was sat up by the FBI through an informant.
Well, let's talk about this.
Am I solving?
Yeah, sure.
As I recall the last one I read about, you had a mobile operation in a truck so that you would not be traced.
And that was the earlier days.
Okay.
But it wasn't the first bus when they busted you in the truck.
No.
That was before the contemporary of yours, and I remember fully the fact that you've been given...
Wait, let me explain.
Okay, give me my chance.
Okay.
All right.
john captain crunch draper
The second time, 1976 it was, I got visited by a very, very persistent individual down in the Los Angeles area who just begged to come up and have me help him with his blue box.
To get this guy off my back, I consented to having him come and visit me, provided that he would never bring the blue box in my presence or take it into my house for any reason.
unidentified
I agreed to meet him at a place in a place far away from where I was.
art bell
You were just going to talk to him?
john captain crunch draper
I was just going to talk to him to get him off my back.
He wanted me to help him tune a blue box.
So, to get him off my back, I said, look, you know, I don't want to do this, but just to get you off my back, I'll do it this one time out, you know.
And he says, well, can I try it now on this payphone?
He unfortunately picked a place, you know.
unidentified
He says, can you meet me at this restaurant at such and such time and place?
john captain crunch draper
And what happened was he'd made prior arrangements for the FBI to have a phone tapped.
Oh, God.
art bell
All right, look, you two.
Pauler, hold on the line.
We've got a newscast coming up.
I'll hold you on, okay?
unidentified
Okay.
art bell
All right, stay there.
And Captain, you stay where you are, all right?
john captain crunch draper
I'm right here.
art bell
All right.
And so are we.
And we will continue after this break.
Captain Crunch.
Captain Crunch, the amazing.
unidentified
Tune in Friday night, Saturday morning, when Chancellor Broadcasting Company presents The Best of Art Bell, featuring Art's most recent interview with Major Ed Daines on remote viewing.
That's tomorrow night on the best of Coast to Coast AM with our crowd.
john captain crunch draper
You've seen collecting coins and saving money?
unidentified
I thought he'd been collecting U.S. savings funds, but he was really helping to ensure our future.
john captain crunch draper
He told me that savings funds are a guaranteed safe way to save money, that they're there when you need them, and that they earn interest for up to 30 years.
That's ensuring the future.
So I started my own collection of U.S. savings funds.
Amazing VR Settlement 00:04:56
unidentified
Just like Dad.
Ask your banker or employer about U.S. Savings Bob for all the rag reasons.
art bell
Alan and Dave talk to Echo on Auto Talk.
unidentified
When those young kids come up next to me at the top, I, it really irritates me.
They're regular engines, you know, so I took my marrow at Down in the shop and I put a blow 429 in it with a positive area and a charge of bargaining.
Well, that holds a team too many good because I'm only getting about 5,000 RPM.
It's when they sit there and blow those engines up, you know, when they try to catch up with me.
That's what really makes me laugh.
Auto talk Saturday morning.
Say, do you have fields, overgrown pastures, even scrubby wooded areas you'd like to keep clear?
Well, listen to what Clenn Grabner of Fairfax, Virginia has to say about his amazing walk-behind DR field and brush mower.
We have 18 acres on the Senandoah.
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We used to have this one portion fresh hog and then it got so expensive that's a mower.
I bet they could pay for itself the first year.
If you're gone a couple weeks, places it up to your knees again.
So it's been a real pleasure to have it.
john captain crunch draper
Most of it you could, you can't cut with a regular mower.
unidentified
This mower that we have is just the thing we needed.
It's very reliable.
It's got a good motor on it.
You can get a big color catalog direct from our factory all about the DR Field and Brush Mower.
Just call toll-free 1-800-Field 13.
That's 1-800-F-I-E-L-D-13 for your free color catalog all about the amazing VR field and brush mower.
USA Radio Network News, this is Ron James.
The president unveiled his federal budget for fiscal 1998 Wednesday.
Says he will achieve balance by the year 2002.
GOP budget experts say the budget's not dead and arrival, but it does need a lot of work.
Meanwhile, spokesman Mike McCurry at a White House briefing talked about the GOP reaction.
john captain crunch draper
They dealt with it seriously today.
unidentified
They raised the concerns that they had.
We know that there will be some differences as we move forward, but the important message that we took from the Republican leader statements today is that they want to move forward with the president, deal with these differences, and balance the budget.
That's good news.
Possible strike against American Airlines by the pilots just a week away.
First meeting between the two sides in Fort Worth Wednesday.
No progress, though, toward a settlement.
James Sovich, president of the Airline Pilots Association, says actually nobody budged off dead center.
He did not convince them.
They did not convince us.
Quite honestly, I don't believe they expected to convince us, nor did we expect to convince them.
Sovitz says the air crews will provide the best service they know how until next Friday, and then it will stop cold if no settlement is reached.
Vice President Al Gore and top U.S. officials began meetings Thursday with Soviet Prime Minister Viktor Chernomirden, latest in a series of key meetings aimed at dismantling Cold War barriers.
We cannot, indeed, we dare not, forego this historic moment.
The meetings will continue today.
This is USA Radio News.
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That number, again, is 1-800-468-9449.
The people of Ecuador are celebrating in the streets this hour the impeachment of President Abdullah Bukaram.
Bukaram was tossed out by a congressional vote 44-34 Thursday night after a general strike for the past several days by the Ecuadoran citizenry.
USA's Ken McCarg in Quito says Bukharam began as a popular president but then became his and the people's worst enemy.
Bukaram ran on a platform of supporting the poor.
Demonstrations Since Christmas 00:02:59
unidentified
He ran as the poor man's candidate.
Then in December he instituted a number of economic reforms which saw utility rates go up around 300%.
Demonstrations have occurred since just after Christmas almost every day.
Leader of the Congress has been elected into him president, but there are three people claiming they are running the country.
Nobody knows for sure who actually is in charge.
Playtimes in O.J. Simpson civil trial Thursday urged jurors to punish Simpson by imposing heavy monetary damages against him.
Ron Jenkins on the USA Radio Network.
If you're overweight, the Catabolic Diet is the most effective, unbelievable program ever created based on over 100 foods that remove calories from your body.
Did you know that every food that enters your body requires various body organs such as liver, spleen, stomach, digestive juices to complete digestion?
For example, an ordinary piece of cake that has 300 calories may require 25 calories to complete digestion.
art bell
To finally lose those unwanted towns, call 1-800-557-3588.
unidentified
In a bid to defuse the fight with Congress, the FDA in Washington is proposing that home drug tests be regulated for accurate results.
We get details from USA's John Becker.
At issue where kids are like consumers collect and mail to drug testing laboratories samples of urinar hair.
They're meant to allow parents to determine privately whether children are using illegal drugs.
Congressional critics say the agency's decision to make numerous home urine test kits available is a step in the right direction.
Under the proposal, most home kits could sell without FDA permission as long as samples are mailed to laboratories where tests are done by a method the FDA has certified.
John Becker, USA Radio News, Washington.
An Army friend at Timothy McVeigh reported they have sold authorities that McVeigh told him the Oklahoma City bombing was intended to foment a general uprising.
And the facts are Secretary William Cohen says it may be time to review the Army's practice of training male and female recruits together.
Don Jenkins with news on the USA Radio Network.
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Contour Pillow Offer 00:05:14
unidentified
The contour pillow is now available.
Order now.
art bell
For rush delivery, have your credit card ready and call 1-800-841-6767.
unidentified
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art bell
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unidentified
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Purchase all five hours of tonight's interview with hacker Captain Crunch, all without commercial interruptions.
Dial 1-800-917-4278 and ask for tape number 970206C.
The cost is $33.50.
That number is 1-800-917-4278.
And now, back to the best of Art Bell.
art bell
Thank you, WTAZ in Morton, Illinois.
They sent it to me, Maxine Nightingale.
unidentified
When you first saved myself.
art bell
By the way, good morning.
unidentified
No one can take your best.
art bell
My guest is Captain Crunch, otherwise known as John Draper.
unidentified
Send five back on your hands.
art bell
In his honor, according to an old con, Here's a modern, modern-day tribute to the computer world.
I love this thing.
unidentified
Listen to this.
From Airport 75 comes another every tale of man versus machine.
Charlton Hesson, stars in Windows 95.
Alex Sapposh, how may I help you?
Please, I can't leave my document.
I need your help.
I'll have to dodge it now.
You see the same icon?
You have to click in once.
I can't.
I'm scared.
Every woman is going to try.
Okay, okay.
I'm looking for it.
I'm going to let me go.
We're rebuilding.
We're going to try.
art bell
Company Canada, Charlton Hesson, Karen Black, and George Kennedy of billionaire Bill Gates.
unidentified
Windows 95.
art bell
So, Captain Crunch, we'll be back here in a moment.
Deve's got a question for him.
I'll get the numbers on the air here in a second.
What pops into your mind when I say Valentine's Day?
Hearts, flowers, angels?
unidentified
Cute.
art bell
Well, how about a perfect rose?
Gift into 24-karat gold preserved in its moment of glory forever.
unidentified
That's right.
art bell
Now, here comes February 14th, and the American Gold Rose Company is back with their very popular collection.
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For $65, you can send that special to somebody along STEM Gold Rose, 17 inches long, delivered right to their door in a gold presentation box, or just order the original rose.
Simple, no leaves, still dipped in gold, $39.95.
All three, perfect for your Valentine.
But there's more.
If you buy any two gold roses now, you receive a free, genuine, four-leaf clover.
Again, of course, dipped in gold, a perfect charm for any necklace and a $23 value.
It's the American Gold Rose Company.
Call them now at 1-800-458-7134.
That's 1-800-458-7134.
Now, should you live in Alaska, Hawaii, or Canada, call 918-687-7574.
Again, 918-687-7574.
Many of you have no idea that there is a bill in our Senate, second time around, by the way, they are being very persistent, that would require our Treasury Department to replace our existing greenback with a brand new style of multicolored money that's already been printed up.
Now, why is that a bother?
Captain's Disconnect 00:06:32
unidentified
New ugly bills?
art bell
Not serious, long as they spend, most people would say.
But there's the rub.
You see, there would be one bill used inside the country and one out.
The coming crisis monetarily in this nation is going to require our government to do something radical.
That radical thing may be a devaluation of the current money.
This would allow that to occur.
This is not a joke.
It's real.
We'll send you a copy of the Senate bill.
Read it for yourself.
North American Trading is the one that has it.
They'll send it to you without obligation because they know that once you read it, you will come to certain conclusions.
So, call them.
The number is 1-800-877-9799.
That's 1-800-877-9799.
Probably the world's most famous hacker, Captain Crunch, otherwise known as John Draper.
And he's in the Bay Area at an undisclosed location.
On a payphone, I might add.
And he is somebody who many years ago hacked into the phone company's trunking systems, learned how to make free calls, had lots of conferences with buddies and other hackers until the FBI closed in on the captain.
Captain did a little time, paid his debt to society, had his record expunged, and is telling his story now.
And we've got Captain, I think, still there, right?
unidentified
Captain?
art bell
Oh, no.
Captain, where are you?
Uh-oh.
unidentified
Captain seems to have disappeared.
art bell
Captain.
Captain, where are you?
Captain, Captain, Captain, what happened?
You know, I might have expected this.
The captain seems to be, we'll leave this line open for a moment and see if the captain comes back to it.
This is very sad.
Caller, are you there?
unidentified
Yes.
art bell
Yes, something seems to have happened to the captain, as in a disconnect.
unidentified
Well, I hope I didn't scare him off, but I have some other more relevant information to direct towards him that maybe he didn't want to talk about.
Would you like to talk about it?
art bell
I'll talk about it.
Yeah, I mean, Captain, are you there?
No, he's still not there.
I've got a number I can ring back here in a moment if he doesn't show back up.
It may be, it may be, maybe the phone company cut us off.
unidentified
You never know.
But as I said, I was a contemporary of his, and I have a little trouble with his Nixon-S amnesia and deniability of culpability.
art bell
Well, now, wait a minute.
He didn't deny anything.
unidentified
Well, let's put it to you this way.
Do you know how Washington politics works and they will soft pedal a difficult issue?
Yeah.
He is doing that.
And the other additional issues I wanted to bring up included a contemporary of his named Trey.
art bell
Wait a minute.
My name was Trey.
unidentified
Pardon me?
art bell
My parents call me Trey.
unidentified
Well, okay.
Trey?
Trey.
Trey.
That's right.
Trey.
art bell
Look, I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
Let me put you back on hold, okay?
And let me see if I can get the captain back on the line.
Obviously, we've run into some difficulty here, so stand by.
Captain Crunch has been disconnected.
No big surprise there, I'm afraid.
We're going to see if we can get him back on the line.
So, Captain, if you're out there, get the line back open or something.
And I've got a couple of good relevant facts, too.
So let's see if we can get the captain back.
Maybe not.
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unidentified
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art bell
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Something Nice Interrupts 00:12:52
art bell
Well, guess what?
We've got the captain back, I think.
john captain crunch draper
Captain?
Yeah, I'm here.
unidentified
Oh, man.
Do you think they got us?
art bell
Well, such things happen.
We'll let it slide.
Anyway, here's that caller who's got on your case.
He's back again.
Now you've got the captain.
unidentified
Okay, yeah, this is Steve again from San Diego.
john captain crunch draper
Yes, Steve, send me an email, by the way.
I'll be down there after the 10th of August.
unidentified
Well, I'm a little reluctant to be in contact with you as I was back 25 years ago.
john captain crunch draper
That's cool.
unidentified
That's right.
That's why I'm poisoned.
john captain crunch draper
You don't want to touch me.
unidentified
Well, you seem to have sort of a Nixon-esque amnesia right now, and I'm wondering if you would also respond to a couple of other issues of why the government was so paranoid about what you were up to.
art bell
Something more appropriate might be Reagan-esque.
I mean, Nixon simply said, I am not a criminal.
Now, the captain has freely admitted that he did his son.
unidentified
Well, no, but I speak of Nixon because of the timeline.
I see.
That's all.
art bell
Oh, I see.
unidentified
First of all, it was a contemporary of yours named Trey who had bugged the Republican National Convention for 72 in San Diego.
art bell
Oh, no.
unidentified
And I don't know if he was the result of their moving it to Florida, but it got moved.
Trey was very disappointed.
art bell
Wait a minute.
One thing at a time.
Captain, is there any truth to that allegation?
unidentified
No, wait.
john captain crunch draper
Well, run that by me one more time, please.
unidentified
You know who Trey is.
Do you?
Yeah, I meet so many people.
I can't remember.
In the 70s, he was one of the premier phone freaks at the time.
art bell
All right, now, is this, is this, he says it's somebody who bugged the Republican Convention.
I'm shocked.
unidentified
He was going to.
art bell
Going to, I see.
Does that ring any AG ⁇ D bells for you, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Not that I recall.
unidentified
Can you give me all the details?
Well, he physically phone tapped the Convention Center and was prepared to provide that to the underground press.
I'm sure you were aware of that.
art bell
It doesn't sound like the Captain Reese.
unidentified
I don't recall that.
art bell
I don't recall.
unidentified
Okay, well, let's move on.
art bell
That is indeed the classic one.
I do not recall that.
unidentified
Here's one that I know you have to respond to.
john captain crunch draper
And this is, actually, I don't have to respond to anything.
unidentified
Excuse me.
Excuse me.
john captain crunch draper
That's right.
unidentified
So it must be so presumptive.
There was a publication put up by the Yippies through the late 60s through 1980 called Yipple and Tap.
Yeah.
And it publicized on how to do not only all of these things of phone taps and blue boxes and all the other good stuff, but how to take over public utilities and break into payphones and how to just about do anything else to undermine structured society.
And Joe, what is your question?
My question is, what did you do about that?
All right.
john captain crunch draper
What did I do about it?
unidentified
I did nothing about it.
john captain crunch draper
CAP was this technology American Party or whatever they call it.
You were a resource.
unidentified
And I'm different.
And my views and their views differ in many respects.
john captain crunch draper
They have asked me on occasion to write several articles on certain things.
unidentified
And I thought about it.
john captain crunch draper
And I wrote a few things, but I didn't write anything that was very detrimental to American society, if you know what I mean.
art bell
All right, look, here's a friend of yours, Captain.
It says, God bless you, man.
You have my hero, Ma Bell's Antichrist.
I'm just 23 years old, but I am a student of hacker and computer history.
And they still sell the whistle.
Read the magazine 2600.
You'll find a lot of interesting stuff.
And by the way, he says, Art, you're in the latest Wired magazine.
I am unwired.
And they want to ask you the following, or give you credit for the following, and see if you want to take credit for it.
Had Captain Crunch not done what he did, it would not have led to Steve Jobs, and we would not have the Mac computer.
And as a dedicated Mac user, I'd like to say thanks to Crunch, Bill in Portland.
Would you take credit for that?
unidentified
I don't know that I could really take credit for that.
john captain crunch draper
I admit I've known Steve Jobs and Wozniak long before they started Apple Computer.
Jobs was really not into the blue box as much as Woz was.
Waz was the one that was really into it.
art bell
So you can't take credit for the Mac.
john captain crunch draper
I really honestly couldn't take credit for that.
art bell
No, you may have launched his interest.
unidentified
It's pretty hard.
art bell
No, but you may have launched his interest further into the direction he was going.
unidentified
That could have very well launched his interest in that general direction, sure.
Sure.
art bell
By the way, everybody, the webpage is now fully back up, and it's got a link to Captain Crunch's.
So if you want to go up on my webpage, you will see a link already installed going to Captain Crunch's.
And to give you some idea of the traffic we take, Captain, over a typical weekend we take about a quarter million hits.
unidentified
Yeah, right?
john captain crunch draper
My website's been averaging about 1,000 hits an hour.
art bell
About 1,000 an hour.
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
I'm sure the well can handle that, no problem.
art bell
The well, yes, I'm sure it can.
john captain crunch draper
They've got a T3 link with a 25-megabit pipe directly into it, so I'm pretty sure it'll handle the throughput.
art bell
Well, it's going to be busy.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
Bad and Rose Louise in.
art bell
All right.
Go ahead.
unidentified
I've got a couple of recent things for you.
Since the blue box, they've come out with the red box and the green box.
Really?
And they have planned, and I'm not even sure if they've already made it, for a gold box.
Really?
With all the new technology and the digital lines and stuff like that will allow you to tap into different lines and stuff.
art bell
Oh, man.
unidentified
I don't see them anymore for just boxes.
art bell
Caller, have you fooled with these kinds of things?
unidentified
I've tried to play around with them, but I mean, I'm not much into that.
All right.
art bell
What was that, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
I asked the caller what the gold box was.
unidentified
The gold box had planned so that anything that was attached to that phone line or if somebody's called into and you're talking to somebody, it would make every phone around there ring.
And it's happened where it makes the entire neighborhood light.
All the phones would start ringing.
art bell
Oh, my God.
john captain crunch draper
Never heard of that.
Well, I've heard a lot of strange stuff in my life.
art bell
In other words, Captain, it's still going on.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, there's no doubt that it's going on.
I mean, look at the publicity that Kevin Metnick got with his antics with phones.
art bell
Will it be true, do you think, Captain, with PGP and the advances, all the advances, are the hackers always going to manage to keep up or either be a step of or one step behind those people trying to keep people like you used to be, used to be, out?
john captain crunch draper
It's always going to be that way.
There's always going to be one group going to go out and figure something else out and then they're going to come back and counter it with something else.
art bell
Well, one of the reasons I asked you whether you kept up with telephone company technology was because you're now jobless.
I mean, if the phone company still, to this day, would come to you and offer you some kind of work, because it's still going on, would you be receptive?
john captain crunch draper
I would be receptive to that.
art bell
You would?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Well, I've got a few connections in the phone company, and a lot of phone company people, trust me on this, listen to this program.
So if you want to take this opportunity to say something nice about the phone company, are you there?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
I heard a big crunch sound on the line, Captain.
unidentified
Oh.
art bell
Now, why don't you say something nice about the phone company so we don't lose you during the next break?
Well.
This is your big jam, Captain.
unidentified
Come on.
What can I say nice about them?
art bell
Something, something.
unidentified
Anything nice.
art bell
I mean, there are many phone companies now, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
That's not exactly nice.
In fact, even AT ⁇ T isn't so happy about being split apart.
I mean, surely there must be one nice thing, you could say, but one nice thing.
unidentified
I mean, how about this?
art bell
I'll help you, John.
unidentified
Okay.
I've been to a lot of other countries.
art bell
I'm getting ready to travel again.
unidentified
Come here.
john captain crunch draper
You know, it would be really nice.
art bell
Wait, don't stop me, John.
I'll say something nice for you.
Compared to other countries, the Bell system, MCI, all the courage of big phone companies make other countries' phone systems look like dog poop.
john captain crunch draper
Well, the quality of the connections are definitely good, and that's something nice to say.
unidentified
There you are.
john captain crunch draper
But I got something else to say, too.
art bell
What, what?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Now, it sounds like a conference is going on there.
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
Somebody's come up here and needs to use this phone to make an emergency call.
art bell
An emergency call.
unidentified
Could I just finish this one thing real quick?
Yeah.
Okay.
art bell
Is it going to be a long call?
You know, I don't want to keep anybody away from an emergency here.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I'm going to say that.
So we'll find out.
art bell
We've got the captain you see on a...
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, can I just finish this one?
Okay, one thing I wanted to say was that I travel a lot, and I went to Australia.
And the phone infrastructure there is amazing.
A lot of the phones there have data jacks.
unidentified
You can plug your laptop in and get their email.
Sure.
john captain crunch draper
In this country, they don't allow that.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
Where can you find a data jack to plug into a phone and check your email?
Come on, you guys, the phone company.
Provide us with our data jacks.
unidentified
Well, I know.
art bell
Well, you can use the data jack.
How about on the cellular phone?
Now, there's more technology that's come along.
Look, I don't want to keep anybody from an emergency call.
Does he think he can get this done about five or six minutes?
unidentified
Sure.
Do you think you can get this done in five or six minutes?
Okay, yeah, he can.
Can you get ready to call me back?
art bell
Yeah, I'm going to release the phone right now so he can make his emergency call, or maybe you can even help him.
Don't do it, John.
And we'll call you back.
unidentified
Okay, call me back in let's say five minutes, okay?
art bell
Yes, Captain.
unidentified
Okay, bye.
art bell
Five minutes it is.
unidentified
Trunk 4-5.
art bell
My guest is Captain Crunch, and I think he'll be back.
unidentified
Stay tuned for more with telephone hacker Captain Crunch on this encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
This is CBC.
art bell
This is Art Bell for Dreamland.
Coming up this week, Robert G. Keats, author of West Virginia UFOs.
You ever wonder what's going on in the mountain states East?
We'll find out close encounters in the mountain states coming up this week right here on Greenland.
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art bell
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art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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unidentified
Call 1-800-367-3344 now.
Whiteback.
He's waiting and music.
Monday through Friday on Talk Radio Network.
You've heard the right now.
You can hear Whiteback Monday through Friday on Talk Radio Network.
art bell
The White House.
unidentified
Whiteback Now on Talk Radio Network.
Whiteback, TRN.
You better listen.
He'll get you.
Whiteback, Monday through Friday, Talk Radio Network.
Any questions?
What's back?
He's waiting for you.
Monday through Friday on Talk Radio Network.
Do your homework.
White's back.
We'll test you on Talk Radio Network.
art bell
Hi, this is Edward James Olmos, and as an actor, I've had many important roles, but none as important as the role the Shriners play in the lives of young children.
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If you know a child under 18, the Shriners might be in for help.
Call this toll-free member.
john captain crunch draper
Shriners Help Kids Get Back On their Feet.
art bell
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unidentified
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Angel means messenger.
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This is Myrna Oaks with a personal invitation for you to tune in every Saturday for Getting Personal from Talk Radio Network.
We go right to the heart of some very personal topics.
The family, education, relationships, children, behavior problems, and current news related to these issues.
Join me for getting personal with Myrna Oaks right here on TRN Talk Radio Network.
Looking forward to talking with you.
art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
Support the Boys and Girls Clubs.
unidentified
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Call 1-800-854-CLUB.
This is an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
You're listening to Art's July 29th interview with telephone hacker Captain Crunch.
And now, back to the best of Art Bell.
art bell
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Are you plagued by that ugly white sunk all over everything, your car when you wash it, those white spots?
unidentified
You know.
art bell
You've seen them, right?
If you're not careful.
Glassware?
unidentified
Yes.
Silverware?
Yes.
art bell
What do people think?
Your shower head?
Your pricks.
Well, you can't really see it, but it wands up in there like cholesterol in the arteries.
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I've been getting some objections.
Anyway, I've had a lot of feedback from people who have taken the course.
And they're making money.
What counts?
The way it works is you trade on paper.
When you're ready, when you know that you know what you're doing, only then do you begin using real money.
unidentified
It works.
art bell
Now, if you'll dial the number I'm about to give you, they'll send you an audio cassette and a 44-page report that explains the whole thing.
And it is free.
unidentified
So.
art bell
Want to better your life?
Here we go.
The number is 888-GOLDKRC.
That's 888-GOLD, G-O-L-D, K-R-C.
In numbers, it's 888-465-3572.
I think that we have got the captain back.
Let's find out.
Captain, are you there?
First Time Caller Line 00:15:38
unidentified
Yep.
All right, cool.
art bell
It came right at a break, so it was fine.
I take it the emergency got taken care of.
unidentified
It sure did.
art bell
All right, excellent.
unidentified
All the parties are happy.
art bell
All the parties are happy.
john captain crunch draper
Where were we talking about?
art bell
Well, we were talking to callers, so let's go back to that.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Trunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hello.
art bell
Where are you?
I'm calling from Houston, Texas.
All right.
unidentified
I have a question.
Actually, I have two questions.
My first question, Captain, I was wondering if you had any sort of relationship, whether it was positive or negative, with Nitnick or Roxburgh during the break in a Cosmos back in the early 80s.
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
I remember getting a call from Susan Thunder, I believe, at one of the conferences.
unidentified
They had an AT ⁇ T conference that set up at one point.
john captain crunch draper
I was at that time living in Hawaii.
I did, believe, get another call shortly after that, a few months after I'd returned back to the mainland.
unidentified
And that was probably about it.
john captain crunch draper
I hadn't really had much contact.
unidentified
It was a very brief conversation.
It was with another person and telly that he wasn't that interested in talking to me.
What about Roscoe?
john captain crunch draper
Roscoe I talked with, I actually visited Roscoe at one point.
art bell
Okay, now none of the rest of us know who these people are.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I actually visited him.
A very smart individual, this Roscoe guy.
He seemed to know quite a lot.
unidentified
Because I've just been reading a whole bunch of books on a lot of the hackers back in the early 80s and stuff, and it seems like there was a tight-knit group of people back then, but for some reason or another, there was a lot of backstabbing, Oscar, and you had a...
Well, okay.
From what I understand, I believe this happened in 83, 84.
john captain crunch draper
There were what we called the L.A. Wars.
art bell
The L.A. warrants?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it seems like I'm warring actions of the hackers.
art bell
Well, wait a minute.
What does that mean?
I mean, what is that like?
What could you do to each other?
john captain crunch draper
Well, they were doing all sorts of naughty things to each other.
I'm not sure that it actually erupted in L.A., per se, but a number of people in L.A. were having their differences.
And they were resolving their differences in hacker ways by doing certain things to each other.
unidentified
I don't know what they were doing.
john captain crunch draper
Probably I had changing each other's phone numbers or doing things to some extent.
art bell
So, in other words, playing havoc with each other's phones.
unidentified
Yeah, pretty much.
art bell
Well, you would think it would be a tight-knit group, and the enemy would be either the phone company or the FBI or whatever, both each other.
unidentified
Obviously, the hacker wars did draw quite a bit of attention to these people.
I see.
art bell
All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Where are you, please?
Hey there, this is uh Tudos Buy from Washington State, and I will say hello to pound 2600.
Yeah, 26 pounds 2600.
You're talking about the RSC channel?
Yes, IRC.
Okay.
Um first off, I had to ask you a question about uh the Esquire uh uh article.
john captain crunch draper
Now I I do know I refute the Esquire article in my web page.
unidentified
Yeah, I kinda I I saw that a little bit in there.
Didn't you come right ahead and say that you know half of that he kind of misquoted from you?
There were quite a few places in there that he misquoted.
john captain crunch draper
Mostly it was just due to this inaccurate information.
I I refute it all on my webpage.
So link up to my web page and you'll see it in there.
I also have a link to the Esquire article as well.
art bell
Oh you can read the Esquire article.
john captain crunch draper
From my web page, yeah.
art bell
Oh cool.
Did they how did they how did they treat you in that article?
I mean were you sort of the the king of the bad guys?
john captain crunch draper
That was sort of like the depiction that Ron did when he wrote about it.
art bell
I see.
Well there you are caller.
unidentified
Art?
art bell
Yes sir.
unidentified
I had a couple comments for you too.
I don't know if you know this but you can still do some pretty strange stuff with the phone company and the blue boxes still do.
art bell
We don't really want to promote the idea of doing that, do we, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, but like like he points out, Mike, I always keep pointing out to those people that email me.
You know, I mean I'm big I get a lot of email.
People still call me up and you would be surprised how many people will email me asking me questions about blue boxes.
unidentified
Oh really?
john captain crunch draper
Oh yeah.
unidentified
Well the old the old sidebar doesn't crossbar doesn't work anymore.
But there is a way to do it.
art bell
Alright, well I'm going to leave it.
unidentified
Oh I'm sure there is.
art bell
Hey Captain, when people email you asking for help with blue boxes and such, how do you respond now?
Do you have a form response or do you take pity on them?
I mean surely you don't help people out anymore do you?
unidentified
Oh no.
john captain crunch draper
I usually tell them you know don't try this at home kind of attitude.
art bell
Capcom Crunch no longer does this sort of thing.
Thank you for your email.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah basically.
I mean I have mentioned to most people that write about you know I say that you know they don't work like they used to work and but at the same time I don't go out there and advocate its use.
unidentified
I try to be really careful when you're talking about.
art bell
Captain Crunch has done his time and doesn't want to do more.
unidentified
Yeah exactly.
john captain crunch draper
Come on you guys out there when you send me email.
unidentified
I mean somebody's messing with kids.
It's ridiculous.
Really?
john captain crunch draper
But I do reply to all men.
art bell
Have they now turned around to the point where they're saying what a lousy traitor you are to the system?
john captain crunch draper
I've had quite a few hackers say that, yeah.
art bell
Yeah I bet.
First time caller line you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you please?
unidentified
Yes, this is Dark Knight from 503, Oregon.
art bell
What oh area code 503.
unidentified
Yeah I know you Dark Knight.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah probably off the DEF CON.
Okay yeah well Captain, how was my conference?
art bell
Wait a minute Alan.
One at a time.
john captain crunch draper
I was at the DEF CON conference this last weekend.
unidentified
Right Captain, so is my buddy Seven.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah, you know Seven.
art bell
Do I sense we have adversaries here?
unidentified
Um yeah, well I guess you can say so Art.
I'm a big listener of you, but uh Captain, my main thing is why is your ego so big after 30 years?
Seven and I both ask you that.
art bell
Well wait no I I've I've said more I've I've I've said more grandiose things about him than he's said about himself.
unidentified
Yeah, but I mean you're still coming off like uh you're the top chief guy and you don't do anything anymore.
john captain crunch draper
Well can I say, of course I don't do anything anymore.
unidentified
What do you want me to do?
Go back to jail?
No guy, I'm not saying that.
john captain crunch draper
I'm just saying that, you know, you you don't need to come across like that, you know, and you come across pretty poorly.
art bell
Well how would you have them come across?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm going to have a suggestion.
unidentified
What should I say the same thing that Seven said on Channel 4 yesterday or day before yesterday or whenever he was on TV last Saturday night?
art bell
What was that?
I missed it too.
unidentified
What did he basically say?
art bell
Or maybe you better not tell me.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I don't exactly know for word for word what he said, but I did I do hear in Channel 4 mention the mention of some of his services that he performs.
Services?
unidentified
And it was pretty good.
john captain crunch draper
I don't know if you asked me.
unidentified
I see.
art bell
All right, so it's obvious a lot of this is still going on, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah, I'm sure it is.
art bell
I mean, just from the phone calls I'm getting here, this sounds like a lot of inside.
Why is it so cutthroat, Captain?
I don't know, Brian.
unidentified
And it's a good question.
art bell
I mean, it's so self-destructive.
unidentified
It's very self-destructive.
In fact, I would say a good portion of the hackers that get busted have been busted as a result of their actions against each other.
john captain crunch draper
It's like a death wish or something.
art bell
Death wish, yeah.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
This is Dr. Don from Oregon.
Yes, sir.
And my question is, I listened earlier when, Captain Crunch, you were talking about the technology that's been here for quite some time to tap phone lines instantly, like six years, you said, or something.
And my question is, well, I just saw something on the news the other night on CNN where President Clinton was dating this new supercomputer that I was commissioned to build.
And they said that it's amazing speed.
Now, don't quote me because I can't remember exactly what he said, but he said the calculation time in one second would be equivalent to someone with a hand calculator to do the same task would take like over 30,000 years.
art bell
Yeah, I heard this, that they were about to come out with a computer 100,000 times faster or something.
unidentified
Most of them go online in 97 or 98.
Yeah.
Well, okay, well, this is something I was talking to my dad last night, and he listens to you hard a lot.
And, you know, just it popped in my head, I thought, well, whoa, what are we going to use that for?
And what is its capabilities?
There were saying that it would model weather and predict hurricanes and stuff.
But, you know, my question for Captain Crunch is, are you aware of technology that not only would tap a call, but could it not be possible to log in every phone call and record it?
Crunch it, store it.
Well, associate it with your phone number and then go back a year later and say, okay, I want to listen to all the things that we're going to do.
john captain crunch draper
All right, all right, cool.
unidentified
That's a good question.
john captain crunch draper
There's a logistical problem in that.
It would take one heck of a lot of mass storage.
art bell
I suppose it would, but we are getting to the age where a lot of mass storage, truly gigantic amounts of storage, I mean, even in the private home computer market, it's getting pretty incredible.
So imagine what our government could do.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and and the super fast computer he was talking about would probably make it almost feasible to crack uh um shorter key sizes of TDP.
unidentified
Hmm.
art bell
All right.
Uh East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
art bell
Good morning.
Good morning.
Where are you?
unidentified
Nashville, Tennessee.
Yes, sir.
art bell
Captain Crunch, sir.
unidentified
Yes.
Do you like Howard Stern?
Howard Stern.
art bell
Have you ever heard of Howard Stern, Captain?
unidentified
I've heard reports about him.
Good or bad?
Both.
Welcome.
There you go.
art bell
That's a Stern call.
Wild Guideline, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi.
unidentified
Hi.
Captain Crunch?
Yeah.
Are you familiar with the Jolly Rogers cookbook?
john captain crunch draper
That has come across my attention, actually.
I believe somebody was actually mentioning that to me in an email message a couple weeks ago.
unidentified
Yeah, I was wondering if it was you that wrote it, because there's a lot of, um, mentioned, I mean, there's a lot of...
You have!
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I'd have to really look at it to tell you.
Do you happen to have a URL where it's located on the web?
unidentified
Why don't you send me some email?
I don't have a computer of my own, but there's a bulletin board called Books for A Free People in all Capital Letters.
Books for a Free People.
You can search that and find it.
It'll say books the government don't want you to read or something like that.
All right.
art bell
Listen, Captain, I actually would like to ask you about this myself.
We are really in a terrible age.
Bombings here, bombings, there, airplanes, this ladder, the whole business.
It's, you know, the militia groups and all the rest of it.
And the government is now, obviously, with its new terrorism bill, the press is on again, and the president wants this and that.
How do you feel about that?
Is it going to be a horrible intrusion on our privacy, or is this awful stuff going on, in your opinion, does it justify what they're getting ready to do?
Well, from an old hacker.
john captain crunch draper
I certainly don't want to have my private email read by anybody, hackers included.
unidentified
At the same time, I certainly don't want to be in an airplane and have it blow up underneath my feet.
art bell
Yeah, well, that is the quandary.
john captain crunch draper
So that's the other edge of the sword.
So what can you do about it?
art bell
Well, if you were the guy in charge, captain in charge, what would you do?
I mean, on the one side, the public's screaming at you, things are blowing up.
On the other, you're trying not to step on their privacy.
So it is an interesting perspective from one who act.
What would you do?
john captain crunch draper
That is a very good question.
unidentified
I know.
It takes an awful lot of thought on that one.
What would I do?
Yeah.
art bell
I mean, you were total anti-establishment in every way.
And yet, even you have got to realize that we're facing people who want to kill us.
john captain crunch draper
Uh, yeah.
art bell
Uh, yeah.
unidentified
Well, you think about how many times somebody's going to be using some communication channel to organize this thing.
art bell
Exactly.
john captain crunch draper
And are they, you know, I mean, is any self-respecting terrorist going to go out there and use the telephone to brag about something that he's going to blow up?
art bell
But he sure as hell might use PGP on the internet to coordinate the thing with his buddies.
I mean, let's laid out here.
unidentified
That's a possibility.
Yeah.
art bell
Yeah, it sure is.
Well, think about that one, Captain.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
Call from Galveston.
art bell
Galveston, all right?
unidentified
Yes, sir.
I want to ask the captain if his life has ever been threatened.
art bell
Oh, that's a good question.
John, has your life ever been on the line?
I mean, has anybody ever threatened to...
Handset Hacking Hazards 00:06:28
unidentified
No.
art bell
No?
No.
I mean, hacking is dangerous, but it shouldn't be life-threatening.
unidentified
I agree.
art bell
Yeah, all right.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
Oh, yeah, Tower in San Francisco.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
I've heard about a box.
I don't know what they call them, blue, red, or purple, but a friend of mine told me there's actually boxes out that can turn the phones into a home into microphones without having to bug the home.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that's called an infinity bug.
It requires some wiring on the phone in order to work.
art bell
Oh, so they can't just do that from the office then?
unidentified
No, but they'd have to actually like wa uh modify the phone to some extent to have that work.
art bell
In other words, somebody would have to, in effect, almost break into your apartment and replace the handset with another handset that would maybe have a live microphone in it.
That's comforting because nobody wants to think that somebody on the other end is just listening to a phone that is hung up.
That's awful.
All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
How you doing?
art bell
Okay, where are you?
unidentified
I'm in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
All right.
I'd like to tell you, is there any way we could tell if our own home life is being tapped?
art bell
Ooh, that's a really good question.
john captain crunch draper
It's not really possible to tell if your phone is being tapped.
art bell
It's not?
john captain crunch draper
No.
art bell
Well, then, yeah, but they sell these little these little gizmos that you can put on the line and supposed to.
john captain crunch draper
Well, all these gizmos do is measure the light resistance.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
And if somebody were to like pick up an extension phone, the voltage changes in these gizmos detect it.
art bell
But a really good tap.
unidentified
A really good tap that was that that was placed on the phone line at the central office would be almost undetectable.
john captain crunch draper
It would be virtually undetectable.
unidentified
Yeah, and it's funny.
art bell
As much as we sit here and talk about a click on the phone or whatever, you'd never hear a click, would you?
unidentified
No, that's true.
art bell
My guess is that plenty of offices are listening to us right this moment.
I'm sure the people John John, Captain, do you think that people in the phone company, this is really a hard question, but those with idle time on their hands, do you think that, for example, this program right now, they know we're connected on the line, right?
Do you think that they occasionally listen to this or that?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I'm sure of it.
I mean, but they're not going to tell anybody.
They're certainly not going to tell their boss.
However, the phone company also has got a pretty effective, so they claim.
So a pretty effective way of monitoring their employees.
For instance, it's not uncommon for the phone company to monitor the operators and how they perform by doing spot check monitoring of calls.
But they don't monitor the calls primarily to learn what people are talking about.
They only monitor the calls long enough to learn that the operator is doing her job correctly and that she's processing the call fast enough.
art bell
Right.
Captain, whoever it was who wrote earlier called you the Antichrist of the phone company.
W would you would you acknowledge that title?
john captain crunch draper
Um, I would tend to the way things are going these days, I would almost tend to believe that.
art bell
All right, listen, uh, we're at the hour.
Can you hold on?
john captain crunch draper
Sure, I can hold on.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
All right, we'll do one more then.
Um, my guest is Captain Crunch, uh, John Draper, a legend circling in his own time.
I'm Marcelle.
This is C-B-C.
unidentified
Call me right back.
Don't touch that dial.
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unidentified
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unidentified
Call 1-800-841-6767.
Excuse me, John.
I don't know who's calling so late.
Hang on.
Hello?
Good evening.
I'm calling with some great news.
You've won a fabulous prize.
I'll just need your credit card number to verify some details.
Then I'll tell you all about it.
They may sound friendly, but many telemarketers are not your friends.
A new law from the Federal Trade Commission regulates telemarketing calls.
Telemarketers may call only between 8 a.m. and 9 p.m.
They must tell you that they're selling something and who's doing the selling.
If it's a sweet cakes or prize promotion, they must tell you the odds of winning and that you don't have to buy anything or make a payment to win.
And they're not allowed to call you back if you ask them not to.
I'm sorry, I never buy anything on the phone unless I know the company.
And I don't know you.
Goodbye now.
Hello, John.
Sorry.
FolksInDangerousSituation 00:15:39
unidentified
I'm so glad there's that new law about telemarketing calls.
The FTC reminds consumers that anyone with a phone can be a victim of a scamming telemarketer.
If you have doubts about an offer, don't give your credit card or bank account number until you check it out and get it in writing.
A message from the FTC.
USA Radio Network News, this is Ron Jenkins.
The question in Quito, Ecuador, this hour?
Who's in charge here, anyway?
President of the country was impeached.
Several people seem to think they're in control now.
Here's USA's Ken McCartney in Quito.
Three people are claiming to be president of the country.
Althama Bucharam was removed from office Thursday night by the Congress, which elected this leader Fabian Arcone as president.
Later, Vice President Rosalia Artiega signed a decree proclaiming herself as president.
And Bukaram is holed up in the presidential palace, refusing to recognize the congressional action.
Thousands took to the streets to celebrate the impeachment vote following two days of a general strike which brought the country to a standstill.
Ken McCart, USA Radio News, Cato Ecuador.
President Clinton unveiled his federal spending budget for fiscal 1998 Wednesday.
It's a $1.69 trillion package he says will achieve balance by the year 2002.
GOP budget experts says there are acceptable aspects in the budget.
White House spokesman Mike McCurry comments.
So we expected that there would be criticism.
But the important thing for the President is that there's been no dismissal of Shares' budget proposal as it actually made that on arrival.
Bonnie Long will have more on the budget later in this cast.
Vice President Al Dore, several high U.S. officials will hold a second day of meetings with Russian Prime Minister Viktor Shenomirden in Washington today.
This is USA Radio News.
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U.S. Attorney Steve Lewis said they haven't decided yet whether to try the boy as an adult.
A complaint has been filed against the three offenses of damaging a subject building by use of an explosive device, use of a firearm connection with a violent crime, and presenting a firearm by jeans.
Federal Aviation Administration officials say there was a close call in the skies above New Jersey Wednesday.
They say a New York-bound Pan Am flight operated by Nation's Air nearly collided with two Air Force F-16s about 70 miles east of Atlantic City.
Officials say the Boeing 727 was forced to dive inclined suddenly to avoid a mid-air crash.
All three planes landed safely without injuries.
This is USA Radio News.
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art bell
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unidentified
USA's Connie Long joins us now with a complete rap on President Clinton's budget proposals for the next fiscal year.
It is a far cry from last year when budget differences were so great the government was shut down.
Now President Clinton vows he can compromise with the Republicans on key budget issues.
There are still differences between the parties about how we should do this, but I am convinced those differences can be bridged.
Republicans say they may propose their own budget, one with deeper cuts, lower taxes, and a constitutional amendment mandating a balanced budget.
Tommy Lawn, USA Radio News, the White House.
Former President Ronald Reagan spent his 86th birthday, much like any other Wednesday, at the office.
The gipper was serenaded by a children's choir and received a gift of cookies from the Girl Scouts.
He also had a quiet celebration later with his family at home.
Ron Jenkins on the USA Radio Network.
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This is an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
You're listening to Art's July 29th interview with telephone hacker Captain Crunch.
And now, back to the best of Art Bell.
art bell
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Back now to the captain.
unidentified
Are you there?
Yeah.
art bell
All right.
Excellent.
Captain, here we go.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
I'm calling from Hawaii.
art bell
From Hawaii.
All right.
unidentified
My question had to do with Red Boxes and AT ⁇ T. All right.
I was wondering, I was using the Red Box, and I was wondering if you think AT ⁇ T listens into the conversation all the time.
art bell
You mean of people using the boxes?
unidentified
I mean, anytime.
art bell
Oh, anytime.
We've kind of just covered that.
And the answer was sort of probably yes.
I mean, it's fair work.
john captain crunch draper
A lot of the calls now are being handled automatically, so it's probably a lot less likely now than before.
art bell
Yeah.
Captain, listen to this.
It probably says it pretty well.
This is for you.
Sadly, it is very cutthroat today.
Everyone is egotistical, vengeful, and doing or saying the wrong thing in the scene can get you in great heaps of trouble.
It's almost like street gangs, in a sense, one group trying to take control of the NPA.
But it's not too hard to separate the men from the boys, all right?
Let me tell you.
The ones that talk the most are the least dangerous.
It's the ones that you don't hear.
The ones that wouldn't touch IRC 2600 with a 10-foot pole.
That's where the concern ought to be, not these kids talking about boxes, making phones ring and free calls.
I try to be humble.
But when I hear these guys today putting down one of the pioneers, like the captain, it bugs me a bit.
Phone freaking is wonderful, to put it bluntly, but it's not meant for the loose-lit.
And Captain, I was delighted when I turned on art tonight and heard you.
Captain, you are a legend.
Say what you will.
I understand completely, but you've got your fans.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, well, like they said, you know, about loose-wits.
Remember an old World War II slogan, loose-wits think ships.
That's right.
art bell
That's right.
Or this, Captain, do you know anything about a modem device called the modem jammer?
He says, I understand the principle, but I don't believe it really works.
Is there such a thing as a modem jammer?
I've never heard of it.
unidentified
Modem jammer?
Yeah.
art bell
You don't see it to me.
Okay.
All right.
Let us move ahead here.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hey, Captain.
Yeah.
art bell
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
Madison, Le Campa.
All right.
I was just wondering, I've heard some rumors that you developed the Tron box.
I was wondering if that was true.
john captain crunch draper
The Tron box?
Can you fill me in on what that does?
unidentified
Well, I guess you probably didn't make it then.
It's used to fool the electric company.
Oh, okay.
Kind of reduced your electric component.
No, I'm afraid I can't take credit for that.
And the last caller?
The what?
art bell
The last caller.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
What about him?
unidentified
Oh, I forgot what I was going to say.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
Well, you blank out sometimes.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
612, Minneapolis, Minnesota.
art bell
All right.
Everybody's giving us area codes.
unidentified
This is Likutis from Powell 2600.
art bell
Oh, geez, here we go.
unidentified
Former blue boxer.
art bell
Former, of course.
unidentified
Former corresponder.
Small problem.
art bell
You too, huh?
unidentified
No.
Well, I didn't get any, but the question is here.
Let me get this straight here.
You're, Captain, you were the one that had a little fun with the whistle.
That hit the proper tone.
art bell
Yep, then a little fun with the blue box, and then not as much fun with the FBI.
unidentified
I've just been having this odd thought here.
You blast the tone and the whistle, correct?
And then how do you dial your KT and your FT and your C card tones?
art bell
No, we're not going to give instructions on the radio.
unidentified
Well, send them instructions.
art bell
Yes, it is too.
No, we're not going to do that.
We're discussing this in a very general way, not a specific way.
The captain doesn't answer email.
How do you expect him to answer on the radio here, national radio, about things he ought not to be talking about?
Right, Captain?
That is right, isn't it?
unidentified
And if he wants to email me the question, I can probably answer him to some extent.
art bell
Oh, Lordy.
unidentified
All right.
The thing is, you know, I mean, all of this information that I'm giving is already published in public manuals.
art bell
Well, then, one easy way for you to do this without sticking your neck out would be to reference them to certain publications.
unidentified
That's what I do.
john captain crunch draper
And in fact, even when people email me, I'll sometimes often refer to them, I'll refer them to a website that's got the information.
art bell
So while you're not really doing this anymore, Captain, it's not totally fair to say that you've lost all interest in it, is it?
unidentified
No, no.
john captain crunch draper
You see, it's a little hard to lose interest when you're surrounded by millions of people that are interested in it.
art bell
Yes, I do understand.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
I'm in Phoenix.
art bell
Phoenix, Arizona.
unidentified
All right.
And my name is Linda.
Hi, Linda.
I'm an operator for the phone company.
art bell
Oh, my goodness.
unidentified
I was just wondering, you know, when he first started talking about the blue box that began in 1972, did it, no, a lot of people were talking about the red box.
Is that, does the name change?
Is it the same thing, or is that different?
Let me give you the difference.
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
As an operator, you know that when you handle coin calls and they put coins in the phone, you give these little BPC beeps.
unidentified
Right.
Well, those little BPC beeps come out and be generated by the red box.
That's called red box.
Okay, because we do have that code that we put in if we think it's a red box.
What's that?
If we think of the red box, they're the codes that we put in.
No kidding.
Yeah, so operators can say we can tell that.
Captain Crunch's Communications Trick 00:11:29
unidentified
Oh, you can?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, because we're not really collecting the coins, and they think we are, so we kind of trick them into.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and operators are instructive to let the call go through, is that right?
unidentified
Yeah, if it sounds like it's legitimate and we really can't prove it to ourselves, we have to let it go through, yeah.
Yeah, but then there's no way to really know.
We have a way we do it, and I don't want to say it, but...
Yeah, you punch in a code.
Code in and they keep track of it.
art bell
Since you're an operator, Linda, it's great to have you here with us.
I want to ask you a question.
How much of this, Linda, in modern day, do you think is going on?
unidentified
Every day.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Every day.
Not just the red box coins, that kind of stuff goes on.
john captain crunch draper
I'm surprised they still work, Linda.
unidentified
Huh?
john captain crunch draper
I'm surprised they still work.
unidentified
It does, you know, and it's all on overseas, you know, a bunch of overseas calls.
And also, we get, I don't know how they do it.
This is kind of really strange to me, but they access somehow into hotels or main storage operators, and then they go, and they get a free line, and then we can play calls for them anywhere, and we think that we're billing it to them, but we have no way of knowing really where they're calling from.
Wow.
And they do that all the time.
That's, you know.
Yeah, it happens.
I get it all the time.
It's amazing.
art bell
Have you been with the phone companies for a long time, Linda?
unidentified
15 years.
art bell
Well, that's a long time.
Is this kind of thing on the increase or is there less of it?
unidentified
It's on the increase.
On the increase.
It's so interesting to me to listen to him, you know, the originator of it from way back then, and it's still going on.
I mean, it's.
art bell
Does the name Captain Crunch get brought up occasionally in the phone company?
unidentified
No, I've never heard that.
No.
art bell
Yeah, probably in smoke-filled rooms.
unidentified
Yeah, really.
Well, I'm not there.
art bell
Linda, it's wonderful that you called.
Any other questions for the captain?
unidentified
No, I think that's about it.
That's it, huh?
All right.
art bell
Thank you, Linda.
Take care.
There's a 602 area code operator.
That's amazing.
She said there's more of it going on now, Captain.
unidentified
Well, what can I say?
art bell
I'm shocked.
Shocked to the quick.
I mean, I thought this kind of thing with modern technology for the phone company anyway was painfully a thing of the past.
unidentified
I mean, it's so easy, technically, to stop that boxes from working.
art bell
The phone company needs you, Captain.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
And I'm appalled to find that some of these techniques people are using still work.
art bell
I'm appalled, too.
And that they do.
I mean, you could save them millions of dollars.
Now, the phone company can contact you through your website, right?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
art bell
Well, I can assure you there are people on high listening right now.
So the captain is without job, right?
Yeah, I'm crunch at well.com.
unidentified
So send me the email, and we'll talk about it.
art bell
All right, well, and to get there, you can go to my website and jump to his.
We've got that in there now.
It's www.artbell.com.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
I had a question and a comment.
art bell
All right, where are you?
john captain crunch draper
Los Angeles.
art bell
Los Angeles.
unidentified
I wonder if the captain was in L.A. or knows of the old party line before the 976 came in.
It was called like Hobo UFO.
john captain crunch draper
I heard something about that.
unidentified
That was, yeah, they had like a busy sequel going on, but everybody was calling in to talk to each other.
This was early 80s, I guess.
art bell
Well, is this like where they talked over the busy signal?
unidentified
Yeah.
But then somebody was always monitoring, calling up and saying, well, if you're not going to talk, you know, clear the line.
And that was going on, but I just wondered if he was around that time.
My comment was also about AT ⁇ T.
art bell
I had tried to let them know I got a skill of possibly crashing a certain new system that they were putting together.
Oh, no.
unidentified
And well, I wanted to test it.
So I called up AT ⁇ T and they gave me the New Jersey address or phone number in New Jersey.
They talked to people in New Jersey.
It got carted around about five different names and people and then they wound up sending me over to Dallas.
They called up Dallas.
Another five people transferred me over.
And then they said, well, write a letter to our personnel department and tell us what your service is that you can do.
And if we're looking for something like that, we'll call you.
I say, yeah, they're going to say, let's find somebody who can crash our system.
Go through the files.
art bell
Actually, that's a very important service.
Don't underrate that service.
I would think they'd be very interested in it.
unidentified
Thank you.
art bell
That's why I think they ought to give the captain a job after all these years.
Captain Crunch working for the phone company.
I mean, it would even be a good PR thing.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
I'm trying to help you here, Captain.
unidentified
Oh, I appreciate that.
art bell
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi, Art.
I'd like to ask the captain.
I was back in the 70s I was doing it too.
Sure.
art bell
Where where are you, sir?
unidentified
Oh, I'm calling from San Francisco.
art bell
You sound too young to have been doing that in the 70s.
unidentified
Oh, well, thanks, but uh I'm 48.
art bell
Oh, wow.
unidentified
Well um I was doing that and we heard rumor that he was actually moved a satellite and we tried to duplicate that and we were never able to do it and we didn't know if it was true or not.
art bell
That who was moved to satellite?
unidentified
That um Captain Crunch moved a communications satellite.
Oh.
Oh, I'm afraid not.
art bell
You didn't do that?
They really would have hated that Captain.
unidentified
Oh I'm sure they would and I would never have done that even if I knew how.
art bell
You you would never have done it.
unidentified
No.
art bell
I mean the sensory incredible temptation of being able to move something in space wouldn't tempt you.
john captain crunch draper
Not if it would disrupt a lot of things.
Of course not.
art bell
What about if it just disrupted like HBO and Showtime and all of that?
unidentified
Anything.
art bell
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
Kansas City.
art bell
Kansas City.
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Hey, John.
Hey, Art.
Hi.
Uh John might actually remember me.
I sent him a car window a couple of years back.
art bell
You sent him a car window?
unidentified
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, your name again?
Uh Vance.
Oh, yeah.
Hi, Vance.
How you doing?
Hey.
Uh great.
art bell
Uh just thought uh you might uh sir, can I go in and ask why you would send the captain a car window?
unidentified
Because he had access to a car, a window that uh that was very hard to get.
And in Kansas City they you could get car parts there that you can't get here.
art bell
All right, I'm sorry, I wanted to know.
Go ahead, sir.
unidentified
And somebody busted out the uh the captain window.
He couldn't get one there.
Uh anyway, I thought uh Art's audience might be very interested in uh the uh toilet paper crisis story.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah, well that's on the website.
unidentified
Oh, but it's uh tell us right from the horse's mouth.
art bell
Yeah, indeed.
Straight from the horse's mouth.
What do you mean, toilet paper?
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
There was this um I was scanning the Washington DC 800 prefix.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Looking and digging up every number I could find in Washington DC.
art bell
You're on the air in Washington DC right now.
Remember that Captain?
john captain crunch draper
And we found a number where this person answered the phone in a very obnoxious way.
unidentified
He was very rude to me when he answered the phone.
john captain crunch draper
I asked him what company we reached and he said he huffed and puffed and said, you haven't reached the company.
He started being very hostile toward me verbally.
art bell
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And so.
art bell
Mistreating the captain.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was a little confused why anybody would want to do that when they have an 800 number.
unidentified
Back then, 800 numbers were used for companies.
Companies had 800 numbers and they used them primarily to sell things.
john captain crunch draper
That's right.
And I would and why would somebody have a public number and be so rude to somebody?
unidentified
Understood.
john captain crunch draper
So I had somebody else call back the number and social engineer tell this party that that we called that we were the White Planes Tandem Switching Office and we were having some translation problems into that number.
What number have we reached?
unidentified
And the man said you reached the White House.
john captain crunch draper
And it turns out to have been the CIA crisis line into the White House, a number that the CIA uses to contact the President.
art bell
Well then no wonder they weren't uh so then why?
john captain crunch draper
Well what happened then joining a party, that number was just one of many numbers that I'd collected and um somebody said, What's this?
unidentified
And I said oh that's the White House And he said can I have it?
art bell
You better.
Hey sure.
Here you go.
john captain crunch draper
So in other words... We created numbers.
unidentified
Huh?
All right.
john captain crunch draper
So I said, what have you got to trade?
unidentified
It turned out that the person who had the number, we were at this party.
john captain crunch draper
Yes.
And we used the verify lines to f to listen in on the calls, which at that time it was possible to do.
unidentified
Now it's not.
Yes.
john captain crunch draper
And we'd learned what the code name was for the president.
art bell
Oh, my God.
unidentified
What was it then?
Olympus.
art bell
Olympus?
That was during which administration?
unidentified
Nixon.
Nixon.
art bell
So Nixon was Olympus, and you had the phone number, and you could listen in all the things.
Now, where does toilet paper come into this?
john captain crunch draper
Well, we were aware I was at a party with about three other people, and one of the persons put the phone number and called it and asked for Olympus.
unidentified
Now, I was in the other room at the time, and one guy ran in and got me into the room and said, come here, listen to this.
john captain crunch draper
And just as I was walking in, he was saying, he was saying, sir, we're in the middle of a national crisis, sir.
unidentified
He said, that's the president.
He says, what's the master of the Texas?
I said, sir, we're out of toilet paper.
And he hung up.
john captain crunch draper
I put that on my website.
unidentified
So you'll read it in there.
art bell
Actually, got Richard Nixon on the phone?
john captain crunch draper
Well, it sounded like him.
Yeah.
And although I didn't catch all of the dialogue, this was like a bunch of us.
We were all just together at this party, and it was down in L.A.
art bell
Well, think of these as the good old days, oh, John.
Cookie Concerns 00:07:26
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
East of the Rockies run here with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Yes, Art.
art bell
Yes, where are you, please?
unidentified
Are you coat 615 CFM?
art bell
Where's that, please?
Middle Tennessee.
unidentified
All right.
Hey, I'd be interested in knowing if the captain can help us understand what these services like America Online and CompuServe can read back off of your computer, for example.
Can they read any information off your hard drive?
art bell
Yeah, a lot of people want to know about that, this cookie thing.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
In fact, I've been getting a lot of email on that last couple days.
I'm not exactly sure how all this stuff works.
I haven't really investigated it myself, but I know that other people have claimed, well, this cookie thing is this thing where, I don't know exactly the details, but when you have a website and somebody accesses your website, you have your website usually is your files on your website are stored on a server.
unidentified
And when the server, when you make a connection with the server, you run this program called the CGI program.
john captain crunch draper
And it's a program that runs on the server, not on the client.
And it sends back various different strings to your client, which is your Netscape program on your machine.
art bell
So in other words, what it's doing, to cut it short here, is that the website is actually making inquiries and getting information from your computer.
Do you believe that that is going on, John?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I don't really see how that can happen.
art bell
I don't either.
I've wondered about the same thing, and yet it seems as though people keep saying that it's going on.
There's a lot of accusations.
john captain crunch draper
You never can really tell what kind of queries are taking place on some of these net connections.
unidentified
Yeah, that's true.
john captain crunch draper
I mean, you do have giant connections.
art bell
Captain, Captain, hold on.
We're at the bottom of the air.
unidentified
We'll be right back.
Well, my guess is Captain Punch.
art bell
Otherwise known as John Draper.
He's done his time.
unidentified
He'll be right back.
Yes, it's CBC.
art bell
This is RFL for Dreamland.
Coming up this week, Robert G. Keats, author of West Virginia UFOs.
You ever wonder what's going on in the mountain states East?
We'll find out Close Encounters in the Mountain State, coming up this week right here on Dreamland.
I want you to listen carefully, because you may be paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars too much for your life insurance.
You may not know it, but the premiums for the same level of coverage can differ widely from company to company, and you can save both by shopping around.
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They compare rates from over 150 of the country's highest-rated insurance companies.
When you call their toll-free numbers, they'll send you a free, no-obligation comparison of the five policies that represent the best value for you.
unidentified
Just listen to this.
art bell
At my age of 40, I bought a $250,000 term-life policy for less than $17 a month.
unidentified
That's less than half of the other clubs I have.
Best Quote saved me a bundle.
art bell
To get your free comparison, call BestQuote's 24-hour toll-free number now.
unidentified
Dial 1-800-367-3344.
art bell
1-800-367-3344.
Coverage is available in most states.
unidentified
Call 1-800-367-3344 now.
Whitebank for each wing.
This kitchen.
Monday through Friday on Talk Radio Network.
Jesus.
You've heard the white thing now.
Engineer White Bang.
Monday through Friday on Talk Radio Network.
The right whiteback now on Talk Radio Network.
Whiteback, T-R-N.
You'd better listen.
He'll get you.
What's back?
Monday through Friday, Talk Radio Network.
Any questions?
What's back?
He's waiting for you.
Monday through Friday on Talk Radio Network.
Do your homework.
Whiteback will test you on Talk Radio Network.
art bell
Hi, this is Edward James Olmos, and as an actor, I've had many important roles, but none as important as the role the Shriners play in the lives of young children.
Over half a million kids with orthopedic and burn problems have been helped, totally free of charge, at 22 Shriners Hospitals.
If you know a child under 18, the Shriners might be able to help.
Call this toll-free number.
john captain crunch draper
Shriners Help Kids Get Back On Their Feet.
art bell
Shriners Hospitals for Crippled Children.
unidentified
1-800-237-5055.
Do you know what the word angel means?
Angel means messenger.
Hi, I'm Gary McClure, founder of Heaven on Earth, and we're in the business of sending messages of love.
I started this company to bring people of all ages a sense that there's someone watching over them.
Heaven on Earth produces cuddly angel dolls that you can send to a special person anywhere in the world.
And it's called Angelgram.
Our sweet 14-inch Angelgram doll Angelica comes with a beautiful white dress, fluffy wings, and a golden halo and pendant.
Angelgram makes the perfect gift for birthdays, christenings, holidays, or to welcome home the new mother and baby.
And you can personalize Angelgram with your own special method.
With your purchase, we donate a portion of proceeds to children's charities throughout the world.
So brighten the day of someone you love by ordering Angel Grams today to order your angel gram for only $29.95.
That number is 1-800-552-A-N-G-E-L.
This is Myrna Oaks with a personal invitation for you to tune in every Saturday for Getting Personal from Talk Radio Network.
We go right to the heart of some very personal topics.
The family, education, relationships, children, behavior problems, and current news related to these issues.
Join me for getting personal with Myrna Oaks right here on TRN Talk Radio Network.
Looking forward to talking with you.
art bell
Denzel Washington talks about the positive influence of the Boys and Girls Clubs.
unidentified
He's been about five foot nine inches tall, but he's a giant.
Billy Thomas.
He ran the Boys and Girls Club where I grew up.
I know today is different.
Young people face problems I never even had to think about.
That's why now, more than ever, we need the Boys and Girls Club.
Selected Hackers Matter 00:15:41
unidentified
It's a positive place where thousands of people like Billy Thomas help young people succeed.
Doesn't work to it for me.
art bell
Sometimes how far you go in life depends on who's looking over your shoulder.
For Denzel Washington, it was Billy Thomas.
unidentified
Today, more than 2 million kids receive the guidance and support they need from the counselors at the Boys and Girls Clubs of America.
art bell
Support the Boys and Girls Clubs.
unidentified
The positive place for kids.
Call 1-800-854-CLUB.
You're listening to an encore performance of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell
Do you see our economy getting better or worse?
With a small investment of your time, you can make it better for yourself.
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Financial pundits think it's a dirty word or have turned it into one.
There's no question about that.
But with the right approach and attitude, commodities can really pay off.
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It's simple.
The way he does it, it's simple.
unidentified
He teaches you.
art bell
You learn how to invest with the no-risk approach by doing it on paper only.
Then when you know you're ready, you begin using real money.
Simple offer, too.
Call 1-888-GOLD K-R-C.
That's 888-465-3572.
Ken will send you a free audio cassette titled Real People, Real Money, and a 44-page report that explains the whole thing.
unidentified
So call them.
art bell
No obligation, no cost here.
888-GOLD-K-R-C.
And now the Beijing Radio, we're working on the last shipment for a while, folks.
AMFM and eight shortwave bands in a radio that requires no batteries.
Not a battery can it use.
There's no place you can put a battery.
Doesn't plug into the wall.
Has a crank on the side.
It's called the Bayless Clockwork Generator.
It has received rave reviews from everybody who has reviewed it.
CNN ran a couple of weeks ago an entire weekend's worth of stories on it.
It's so revolutionary.
It is from South Africa.
By the way, it was developed for the third world that frequently has no power or intermittent power.
It is then the quintessential emergency radio because when you go to it three years later and you wind it, it works.
No dead batteries.
It's obvious.
The audio quality is excellent.
The manufacturing is superb.
It weighs seven pounds.
We will get it to you, shipping and handling included, presently and until the shipment is gone for $119.95.
Trust me when I tell you you should not wait.
The number to call in the morning at 7.30 is 1-800-522-8863.
The C-Crane company, again, at 1-800-522-8863.
Back now to Captain Crunch.
And Captain, are you still there?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Well, I want to thank you for hanging in there so long.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, okay.
unidentified
Great.
john captain crunch draper
No problem.
No worries.
unidentified
Back earlier before the break, you asked me a question about reading files off of a person's hard disk on the machine.
And I've been thinking about that during the break, and a couple comments I'd like to make on that.
When you connect your machine to the net and use Netscape to go browse the web, you instigate what is called an IP socket to the Internet itself.
john captain crunch draper
Now, the browser, like Netscape or Microsoft's version of it, has code that certainly knows how to go out there and read a hard disk and get directory on the hard disk.
unidentified
Yikes.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, so it's, in answer to your question, it is certainly absolutely possible to do that.
unidentified
Yikes.
john captain crunch draper
The person writing the browser would have to, of course, have integrity to do that.
Have integrity not to do that.
Not not to do it, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
No, no, the point I'm making now is this.
There's this new programming language out called Java.
john captain crunch draper
And Java is supposed to be secure and it's supposed to prevent people from injecting viruses that run on your computer.
However, there have been numerous news reports of some security problems with Java.
unidentified
I don't know whether this has been resolved or not, and I don't know whether a new security leak will be discovered in the future.
art bell
Alright, I'll leave it there.
I've got a lot of callers for you, Captain.
unidentified
Go ahead and deal with them.
art bell
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi, Mark.
My name's Mark.
I'm calling from Hilo, Hawaii.
art bell
Hilo, Hawaii, the big island.
unidentified
Yeah, listen to me on KTA.
john captain crunch draper
You can barely pick you up with my C-Crane selected text.
Well, I live here, Hilo.
unidentified
Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, okay.
unidentified
Well, I'm a frequent, I search the net a lot and check out Argon's website.
And I was going to ask you about PTP encryption.
Yeah, go ahead.
You're familiar with the U.S., have they made regulations that have made encryption more or less unsafe than you should use the international version of PDP?
I'm trying to understand I wanted some sound out.
art bell
Alright, what's safe, in other words?
unidentified
Well, okay.
john captain crunch draper
There are several different versions of PGP.
There are U.S. domestic versions which are not allowed to be exported.
unidentified
Really?
Uh-huh.
That's right.
Our government has seemed to think that encryption is classified as a weapons, as a weapon.
john captain crunch draper
And a lot of companies that get licenses to export cryptography software for handling credit card transactions and things like that actually have to become a weapons dealer legally in order for them to be able to have the ability to or the permission to sell this kind of technology overseas.
Now, PTP was originally written and developed overseas.
unidentified
And in that case, a lot of the tight encryption now these are earlier versions of PTP, 2.3 I think is one of them, or 2.1 or 2.2.
art bell
In that range, do they have varying degrees of safety?
That's really the question.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, the earlier versions of PTP I would trust more because I would tend to believe they would probably be using the IDEA cipher method which was developed in Europe.
I would have much more trust in that cipher.
art bell
What you're really saying, when you read between these lines, you're saying that the later versions of TGP, in your opinion, might have been designed to seem safe.
unidentified
Yeah.
All right.
art bell
You're going to love this call, Captain.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Who is this, please?
unidentified
This is Seven.
art bell
Seven?
unidentified
My name has been brought up a few times tonight.
art bell
Your name has been mentioned, Seven.
Do you recognize this person, Captain?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
art bell
What seven do you have for the captain?
unidentified
I'm a San Francisco Bay resident.
I'm currently on the road calling out of Denver, Colorado.
I don't have access to the radio shows this time.
Yes, you do.
art bell
Kay Howe in Denver.
6.30 on the dial.
unidentified
6.30 on the dial.
Yep.
I've only been here a few hours.
All right.
Now, I believe there was an issue brought up about a television appearance I made in Last Franciscan verification regarding hackers.
art bell
Somebody mentioned it, yes.
unidentified
And I don't know what that issue was, but I was basically alert about a lot of people I should call in.
Oh, okay.
art bell
Well, you're on.
So what did you say on that TV show?
unidentified
The television show was produced by Anthony Moore to basically try and give a fair shake to the hacker hysteria that's been covering the press the past couple of years.
Right.
And he basically wanted to talk to a bunch of people that are on the inside track of the underground, people that have been around a while and some things, to see if that perception by the public is actually reality or if it's a bad deal, a bad shake.
want to know exactly what the underground was like, and you viewed a little over half of the other people in the San Francisco Bay Area, you being one of them, and tried to spell some of the myths by showing them the reality of hacking.
Okay, well...
We aren't all bad people that we don't have out there, but read people's email, destroy people's files, steal proprietary information, and...
art bell
Well, tell me there's an issue with that.
Seven, tell me, describe the difference between a good hacker and a bad hacker.
The bad hacker obviously destroys email, blah, blah, blah.
What is a good hacker?
unidentified
A good hacker is someone who understands the technology they have before them, the foundation of the Internet, the different tools that are available to them, the programming languages, has a fair understanding of it, has the ability to explore the limits of the technology.
In other words, not doing what they're told to do, but for the boundary of maybe finding some new uses for the Internet.
Actually being a productive member of the Internet community and designing new uses for the Internet and let the legends stay where it is now and hoping that someone else comes along and develop something.
For example, then it has created the World Wide Web.
That was created by hackers because of their exploration and knowledge of the Internet.
We were able to put two and two together and go over the new use for it.
That's right.
That kind of thing needs to continue to happen.
There are good hackers out there.
There are bad ones, obviously.
art bell
In the same way that I'm a ham operator, and ham operators, early in electronics, developed a lot of things that contributed to national security and the advancement of electronics generally.
Yes.
So the amateurs dump it in the laps of the pros.
unidentified
Amateurs dump it in the laps of the pros.
Some of them will have different motivations.
It all comes down to the intended individual hacker.
art bell
Well, Seven, what is your take on Captain Crunch as a legendary beginning hacker?
unidentified
Captain Crunch, in my opinion, was the one that brought freak tumbling basically to the masses.
He was the one that originally brought it to the masses.
He wasn't by far the first great because we say you could say this guy who went to the telephone.
art bell
No, but one of the grandmasters, eh?
unidentified
One of the grandmasters, yes.
He did bring it out to the masters.
He was the one that took the little underground technology or basically the hands of selected few and showed everyone out there.
It's like, hey, look at this.
There's something we can then learn about, exploit, learn something from.
And I have respect for him in that fact, despite what he may think.
I do have respect for him in that aspect that he did bring it to the masses.
art bell
All right, Captain, do you have any big problem with Seven?
He said many nice things about you.
unidentified
Not a problem.
No?
I think there's been some communication between us.
I don't feel any ill-will towards them, just despite the fact that they had a kind of a temper that gets out of hand sometimes.
art bell
Oh, really?
Captain, do you have a template?
unidentified
Hey, Seven.
Let's get together in Frisco sometime and we'll talk it over coffee, huh?
Yeah, no problem.
All right.
Peace.
art bell
Peace, gentlemen.
unidentified
Peace.
All right.
art bell
Take care, Seven.
unidentified
Thank you.
Bye.
art bell
The famous or infamous, I'm not sure which, Seven.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hello, Mr. Bell.
Hi.
Yes.
I had a couple questions for Mr. Crunch.
art bell
Oh, fine.
unidentified
That's Captain Seven.
Oh, I'm sorry.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I'm in De Lewis, Minnesota.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
Are you familiar with the so-called K-Rat movement, HPAC, out on the internet?
The K-Rat movement.
Hmm.
john captain crunch draper
Not exactly.
art bell
What is that?
john captain crunch draper
Well, this is also like my little theory about the Atlanta bombings.
unidentified
Basically, it's people that believe that you can solve a lot of problems by blowing stuff up.
Mostly it's like little teenagers running around proclaiming anarchy and all this crap.
But, I don't know, I'm just wondering if you're, like...
art bell
No, but that, see, that really is the dilemma.
Thank you.
That really is the dilemma.
john captain crunch draper
That's certainly not something I want to be able to hopefully.
art bell
Yeah, but we do have a lot of these little bastards running around, as he said, thinking that it's cool to blow things up and kill people.
And, you know, this is going to bring everybody on the net and everybody, I'm sure, in circles you run in, Captain, is scared to death of the government coming in and slamming down the big hammer of oppression.
But, you know, if things continue the way they are...
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm afraid it's going to turn into that.
unidentified
It's like inevitable.
That's what I'm afraid of.
art bell
Yeah, that's what we all ought to be afraid of.
unidentified
Exactly.
art bell
And so I guess to me, the difference between a good hacker and a bad hacker is a good hacker who heard of somebody who was planning to do something really awful like that, they'd turn them in.
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
art bell
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
How you doing, Card?
All right, where are you?
john captain crunch draper
Fresno, California.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Well, I was kind of curious.
I had a couple questions, but the first one was something that I had heard, and I'm just wondering if you guys had heard anything about it.
You were talking about the supercomputer the government might have or is developing.
The tap lines, and I had heard that they are preparing some kind of a computer that will or maybe it's even in existence now that will key in on certain words over all the phones, all the almost all the phones in the well, I don't know, maybe in the country, and that they'll begin to tape at certain words.
john captain crunch draper
No, that was already brought up earlier.
art bell
Yeah, it absolutely must exist, because they've got the SETI project that can look at billions of frequencies.
So you can be damn sure they've got something they're looking at.
unidentified
Another thing too that I, a while back, I had heard.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was listening to your program ART, and there was some guy on there and you gave his phone number out.
unidentified
It was a kid that had the transformer.
This is quite some time ago.
art bell
That stole the transformer, Madman Markham.
unidentified
Yeah, young kid.
art bell
Yeah anyhow, you know what I talked to, Madman Markham, earlier today, are you too?
No, i'm not kidding he.
He has this giant uh, uh diesel generator now, and I think Madman's getting close to going into another dimension.
I'm gonna have him on the air now don't, don't laugh.
unidentified
Well, I know, but I don't.
You know, he's not gonna get in trouble yet, is he?
art bell
No, because he's got now this giant generator.
So he says i'm disconnected from the power company and what I do is up to me and he's he's right, but i'm sure he's gonna, he's gonna step through it, huh.
One Hour Left 00:10:42
art bell
So I want to get him on before he.
Oh, you know well, I had called him you.
unidentified
You put his number on the air and I called him up and he told me about this.
Well yeah, I guess there's a code that can find out if you're being tapped.
Do you know about that code?
art bell
Yes, I do, and I I can't discuss it.
unidentified
Oh really yeah, I.
art bell
I thank you for the call.
There is, uh.
I are you captain?
Are you aware there is a number you can call, uh that will uh tell you with a signal uh signal uh, sort of uh, I don't even want to describe it.
Actually uh, three different signals to tell whether you're being tapped locally um uh, or uh, regionally or federally.
unidentified
Um, I haven't really heard of it.
I wouldn't be surprised.
art bell
I know about something you don't.
Then no, I said I wouldn't be surprised.
Yeah, there is such a thing.
Uh, west Of The Rockies, you're on the air with captain Crunch.
Hello, hello.
unidentified
This is my kid area, code 808.
art bell
What does all that mean.
That's why oh hello, Hawaii.
Yes, i'm sorry, area code 8.
Everybody's giving their area codes tonight.
unidentified
It's independent of the captain very appropriate, or the captain sir, and and see uh, what is i'm on?
Uh Oahu sir, i'm in okay.
Uh, very briefly, I work at a?
Uh small hotel here and we had a?
Uh three weeks ago I had a meeting with the general manager and uh he, He was ranting in Rady.
It's a small hotel, so there's only one person that staffs the front desk and does everything.
Answers phone, checks people in, check out, compares, right?
You get real busy.
So the gentleman is walking around and he's waving this phone bill in his hand.
And he's just pissed.
I mean, he's really mad.
And so what he says is that there's a scam going on, and people are calling in and getting to a room in the hotel and getting talking to the person in the room to taking the phone off the hook and leaving it off the hook.
And he says what happens is at that point they can then call around the world and he shows us the phone bill and it was three separate calls on the same day to Vietnam totaling $870.
art bell
You know I've heard of this.
Have you, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
It wouldn't surprise me.
unidentified
Well, he described it as being a box.
john captain crunch draper
You know, the hyperbola put a cheesebox on his line.
unidentified
A what?
And I call it a cheese box.
art bell
Cheese box.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it just ties two lines together.
unidentified
Well, we got mailed.
Sorry.
art bell
Did the phone company make good, I mean, or did they?
unidentified
I actually didn't hear that part.
I, I, um.
Well, you know, the operator earlier from 602 said that they don't really know, but, you know, I guess if you prove that, I don't know.
art bell
Yeah, but she thank you.
She did say, though, that if they suspect, they let it go through, but they turn it over to security, is what she said.
Is that right, Joe?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, they, well, like Sophie said, when she detects something funny going on, she just punches in a code.
art bell
And that nails the line?
unidentified
I'm sure it identifies the line somehow.
art bell
Marks it, as it were.
First time caller align, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hello.
art bell
Hello, you're on the air, sir.
unidentified
Oh, good.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I mean, we're calling by.
My name's Dave.
art bell
Hi, Dave.
unidentified
Yeah, I've been trying to get on Hotel's webpage from American Online.
Yes.
And then I connected the first couple of times, and now I'm getting a message back saying that the server is...
art bell
Yes, we understand.
Listen, it's a problem with America Online.
Our webpage is up, but AOL is having some kind of problem connecting to it.
unidentified
Oh, they're saying it's you.
art bell
Well, they'll get it worked out.
It'll be all okay soon.
All right?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
All right, sir.
unidentified
What about the triangle get you through to Carpetserve and then been having the same damn problem?
I can't get to this.
art bell
Yeah, I got a call from the person who runs my webpage earlier, and he said there's a widespread problem going on right now, and it may still be going on.
john captain crunch draper
Well, you know, maybe there are so many people trying to get on the web page right now that it's like overloading the server.
art bell
Yeah, that's entirely possible, Captain.
That's happened many times to us.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
art bell
Hey, this is Rick.
unidentified
602KFYI and Phoenix.
Ha ha ha, yes.
Okay.
Hey, I'd like to ask the captain, you always advertise this digital phone, 900 megahertz.
That's right.
How foolproof is that being tapped in?
art bell
It's a foolwork.
It's a good question.
Captain, we have a digital, let me preface this.
We do have a fully digital phone.
I mean, at 900 megahertz, this thing is totally digital.
If you listen to it on a scanner, it's nothing but white.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
And it's pretty hard to tap.
But still, they can tap your phone at the central office, right?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, but it's it's more or less a software attack.
art bell
Exactly.
Exactly.
So the only w it gives you privacy with regard to people sitting with scanners or other portable phones or baby monitors or any of that baloney.
unidentified
Right.
art bell
You don't hear anything.
It's just white noise.
unidentified
Correct.
art bell
Not even 17.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi, RMD.com.
Yes, sir.
Alias Commander Keyboard here.
art bell
Commander Keyboard?
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
I'm calling from Las Vegas, Art.
All right.
And just tried to get through on your video line.
Are you still using that?
art bell
I don't have it up at the moment.
unidentified
Okay, that was a really exciting program, and I'm one of your beta testers out here.
art bell
Yes, sir.
We'll get it up again.
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
Has anybody gotten into my site yet?
unidentified
Yes, I have.
I just went there and sent you an email.
Okay, and you're from Las Vegas?
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
So I hope I'm one of you.com.
unidentified
Yeah.
I'm E?
Uh-huh.
john captain crunch draper
I'll go by your email tomorrow when I check in.
unidentified
Yeah, I hope I'm one of your 20 people that can sign up for your Internet Service Guide and web page construction.
Yeah, good.
Well, that's cool.
So anyway, Captain, I feel that you're more of a colonel now than a captain.
We have been promoted.
And I did go up to your web page.
I couldn't access your web page on AOL and tried chatting with people briefly in the grassy knoll.
Got off of AOL and went on.
I have five different servers.
art bell
Lucky you.
unidentified
Well, I'm trying them out, and I have unlimited access with one.
art bell
Yeah, I'm hearing the problem is with AOL.
unidentified
I use AOL because you can have five email addresses and up to two megs of web storage space for each address.
art bell
If you say any more, it'll constitute an advertisement.
unidentified
Okay.
Well, we need to start artfill.com.
art bell
Yeah, that's fair.
unidentified
So anyway, I accessed your page art from my other server.
It works just fine.
Right.
A little bit slow on some of the pages, you know, with images, because I'm using 14.4.
But I would suggest that anybody goes to web crawler and pull up, oh, I typed in Captain Crunch for search.
And I got, because I didn't quite catch the web page address or, you know, I couldn't hyperlink to it.
art bell
Well, a good search engine will find it with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Oh, found it easily.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I got myself listed in about 15 or 20 degrees.
unidentified
Yeah, so you're the Crunch man.
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Right on it.
art bell
Yeah, the Crunchman.
unidentified
And so browse that page and everything.
Pretty good stuff.
john captain crunch draper
Excellent.
unidentified
Excellent.
I'm going to go back up there and read the Esquire article right now.
All right.
art bell
Well, listen, thank you for the call.
Captain, we're at the end of the hour.
I'll tell you, I've got one more hour to show.
If you don't have anything to do, I'll keep it.
john captain crunch draper
What time is it now?
art bell
It's 3 o'clock almost.
john captain crunch draper
So we've got one more hour to go?
art bell
Yeah, why not?
Can you do it?
unidentified
You can do it, Captain.
art bell
Stay right there.
unidentified
Tune in Friday night, Saturday morning, when Chancellor Broadcasting Company presents The Best of Art Bell, featuring Art's most recent interview with Major Ed Daines on remote viewing.
That's tomorrow night on the best of Coast to Coast AM of ArtFound.
Hi, this is Kevin from the Box for R.A.B., recording artist against drunk driving.
We all know it's fun to rock and roll and party.
If you're going to drink, please don't drive.
Go ahead and choose a designated driver.
Music lives, and so should you.
Don't drink and drive.
Have somebody else do the driving.
Brought to you by this station and the National Association of Broadcasting.
art bell
I want you to listen carefully because you may be paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars too much for your life insurance.
You may not know it, but the premiums for the same level of coverage can differ widely from company to company, and you can save faith by shopping around.
Well, there's an organization called Best Quote that will do the shopping for you for free.
They can hear rates from over 150 of the country's highest-rated insurance companies.
When you call their toll-free number, they'll send you a free, no-obligation comparison of the five policies that represent the best value for you.
unidentified
Just listen to this.
art bell
At my age of 40, I bought a $250,000 turn-like policy for less than $17 a month.
unidentified
That's less than half of the other quotes I have.
Best quotes take me a bundle.
art bell
To get your free comparison, call BestQuote's 24-hour toll-free number now.
Guy, 1-800-367-3344.
1-800-367-3344.
Coverage is available in most states.
unidentified
1-800-367-3344 now.
Get Involved in a Child's Life 00:05:02
unidentified
Yeah, I guess my brother and I were quite a handful growing up.
You could have gotten in a lot of trouble.
But Mom, she read to us.
She's had the time to make us feel important.
Today, there are more children in need of adult role models than ever before.
So at Always Kids, we're dedicated to improving the way children grow up in this country.
You can help.
Get involved in a child's life.
art bell
Well, I guess now it's my turn.
unidentified
Mom, I guess.
art bell
Okay, where were we?
unidentified
Always, kids, helping you make a difference.
USA Radio Network News, this is Ron Jenkins.
Question in Ecuador, who's in charge?
Abdullah Bukharam was impeached by the country's Congress late last evening by a vote of 44 to 34.
USA's Ken McCogg in Quito, the capital city, said the mood in the streets is a festive one.
The people are celebrating to see Bukharam go, and the military has been called out.
The military has told the warring parties within the government that it will not intervene, but it has asked them to settle the dispute as soon as possible, and it has offered its services to mediate in the dispute.
The big question, who's in charge, the Congress named Fabian Abacon, the president of the Congress, as interim president until elections can be held.
Later, however, Vice President Rosalia Otiega signed a decree proclaiming herself as the president, and Bukharam is holed up in the presidential palace, refusing to recognize the impeachment as legal.
He claims he's still in charge.
President Clinton presenting his budget proposal for the fiscal year 1998 to the Congress, a move which prompted unusual responses from the Republican majority, including that the proposal is not dead on arrival.
In turn, White House spokesman Mike McCurry said the best thing to do would be to take the president's budget proposal, work on it, work on it together in a bipartisan fashion, balance the budget, and then move to those more difficult long-term issues that surely we should address.
Clinton claims his budget proposal will result in a balanced budget by the year 2002.
This is USA Radio News.
Katie selects the coffee!
40 years and 4,200 bowls of Quaker Instant Oatmeal from now, mostly maple and brown sugar, Katie Ryan will be our 81st Secretary of State.
She will have traveled to five continents, and conflicts in 14 different trouble spots.
Quaker Instant Oatmeal.
In a speech accepting a major international peace prize, Katie will say the same thing she says today.
Thanks, Mom.
Quaker Instant Oatmeal.
Oh, what those oats can do.
Grandpa, can I marry you?
Oh, honey, you're so young.
I could never keep up with you.
But mom's a tax slimy Jameson sure.
Ensure is complete balanced nutrition.
Number one doctor recommended.
With all the nutrients you need to help stay healthy, active, energetic.
Besides, I'm sure you'll marry someone even more fun than me.
Well, will you at least come to the wedding?
Sure.
I'll be there.
Ensure.
Number one doctor recommended.
Drink to your health.
The Food and Drug Administration has finally bowed to congressional pressure it will soon allow parents to get drug testing kits without a doctor's prescription for devices they can use to test drug use by their children.
William Schultz, FDA Deputy Commissioner for Policy, says his agency's proposal comes with an easy-to-meet requirement.
The product must use a lab test that has been approved by the FDA or is otherwise recognized by the agency as reliable.
It's critical that the test be accurate in order that parents and others get the right answer.
According to a study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, children in the United States compared to youngsters in other industrialized countries are much more likely to die violently.
The CDC says its study of 26 countries found that the U.S. has the highest rates of childhood homicide, suicide, and firearms-related deaths.
This is USA Radio News.
Does your home need a new roof this season?
If your roof needs replacing fast, then call Sears Roofing Now.
A Sears authorized expert will examine your roof and give you a free estimate.
Sears Roofing is sold furnished and installed by Diamond Exteriors, a Sears authorized contractor, so you know you'll get expert installation guarantee.
Not available in all areas.
Sears Roofing is ready to help you, so call now, 1-800-452-6200.
That's 800-452-6200.
Questions About Deductions 00:05:15
unidentified
Top Russian and U.S. officials insist there will be a summit at the end of March between President Clinton and Russian President Boris Yeltsin.
Despite the ill health of Russian President Boris Yeltsin, the White House insists there will be an American-Russian summit at the end of March.
The announcement was made by the visiting Prime Minister of Russia, Viktor Chernimyrdin.
The Russian official is in Washington for two days of meeting for the Vice President Al Gore.
American officials say it is important to indicate that Yeltsin is strong enough to govern.
If not, the Russian government could fall to others who oppose democratic reform.
County Long USA Radio News, Washington.
The Senate has confirmed the President's second-term choice for heading the Transportation Department.
The chamber to yesterday voting 98-0 to approve Rodley Slater to replace Federico Pena, who has been nominated to become the nation's new energy chief.
Ron Jenkins on the USA Radio Network.
QR, you can never know everything about tax laws, unless you're the Internal Revenue Service.
We have to know.
It's our job.
So next time you have a tax question, go right to the top.
Ask the IRS.
Free.
Just call Teletax.
It's a 24-hour, toll-free helpline with recorded information on about 150 tax topics.
They're listed right in your tax booklet.
Maybe you have questions about deductions or how many dependents to claim.
With Teletax, you can go right to the topic you want and find the answers you need.
Whether you're a small business or an individual, Teletax can help.
Look in your tax booklet for a local number or call 1-800-829-4477 from a touchdown phone.
That's 1-800-829-4477 for Teletax.
At the IRS, we want to help.
That that's why we're here just all five hours of tonight's interview with hacker captain Crunch, all without commercial interruptions.
Dial 1-800-917-4278 and ask for tape number 970206C.
The cost is $33.50.
That number is 1-800-917-4278.
And now, back to the best of our bells.
art bell
What image comes to mind when I say Valentine's Day, hearts, flowers, angels, cupids?
How about a perfect rose dipped in 24-karat gold?
Take a rose at its peak and dip it in 24-karat gold, and you have got something truly incredible, and that's what the American Gold Rose Company sells.
Here's the lineup.
First, the classic rose at $49.95.
It is 11 inches long and comes in a beautiful gift box.
Then, the big one, the Hollywood Elite, for just $65, you can send that special to somebody a long stem gold rose 17 inches long.
Or you can order the original rose, simple, no leaves, but still dipped in 24-karat gold and just $39.95.
But there is more.
If you buy any two gold roses now, and maybe you've got a couple of Valentines, you receive a free genuine four-leaf clover dipped in gold.
A perfect charm for any necklace and worth $23.
unidentified
Call them.
art bell
The American Gold Rose Company.
unidentified
Take note.
art bell
1-800-458-7134.
In Alaska, Hawaii, or Canada, call 918-687-7574.
Again, 1-800-458-7134 or area code 918-687-7574.
Now, Levatron.
Mmm, let the games begin.
The Levatron is something that, as a matter of fact, there is still a photograph, I think, up on my webpage of a cat with a Levatron.
It's amazing.
It's one of my listeners.
And this so-called toy can levitate in mid-air.
It's all done with permanent magnets, something they said could not be done.
And yet, it works.
Thousands of you out there are already astounding friends and family with this astounding is an understatement.
And we've got a contest underway just for all of you.
If you've already got a Levatron, you better begin practicing.
Kytoslim: Lose Weight Easily 00:03:01
art bell
If you don't have one, you better get one.
The idea is, whoever submits a videotape with a counter, by the way, of the longest Levatron flight wins one of the new Levatron perpetuators.
Another breakthrough in physics from the inventor of the Levatron Anti-Gravity Top.
It will keep your Levitron going in mid-air forever.
So, to enter the contest or to get your hands on a Levatron, $35 plus shipping and Andly, and the exclusive 24-minute tape that you had better watch because it will turn you into a Levitron master.
Call them at 1-800-275-2877.
That's 1-800-275-2877.
Are you overweight?
Would you like to lose an average of 8 to 10 pounds in the next month?
unidentified
Sure you would.
art bell
Fiber?
I actually can do it.
And we know now that fiber, in effect, sweeps fat out of your digestive tract like a room.
There is a revolutionary fiber called Kytoslim.
It is a natural one.
It comes from shellfish.
in the sea, of course.
It not only sweeps fat, but absorbs ten times more fat than other fibers.
It is the ingredient in a formula called Kyto Slim.
It lets you lose weight without changing your eating habits.
The offer is simple.
When you order a 90-day supply of TytoSlim, you'll get an antioxidant moisturizing cream along with it free of charge.
If it doesn't do the job, each 10 pounds in the next month, you get your money back.
And you keep the cream.
That's the deep.
The number is 1-800-557-4627.
That's 1-800-557-4627.
Now back to Captain Crunch.
Captain, are you there?
unidentified
Yep.
art bell
All right.
I've got a fact here from, it says, good morning, Art.
I work as a telephone operator doing the graveyard shift at the grand hotel in San Francisco.
I'm not going to give the name.
I can always tell, she says, when a PBX hacker is calling in to access a hotel line, most common way is.
They pose as a PACBEL or AT ⁇ T employee and they say they're having a problem calling his or her office and will call our hotel and ask to be connected to an operator with a telephone company.
Isdn Hacks And Rainbow Gatherings 00:15:29
art bell
Oh, I see what they're doing now.
I see what they're doing.
So is that a new way to hack to get free calls?
Oh, sure.
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Yes.
unidentified
A lot of the hotel PBXs were programmed to ignore those.
john captain crunch draper
And it turns out that a lot of hackers would go to a hotel somewhere and do 10XXX and then dial out on the hotel phone and it wouldn't know how to handle it, so he'd just put the call through.
art bell
So in other words, that guy whose hotel manager was going crazy probably was correct.
That's how they did it.
All right, Gearman.
john captain crunch draper
Well, that's just an example, although that particular code that I gave probably wouldn't work.
unidentified
Yeah, okay.
art bell
Mr. Bell, please ask Mr. Draper if he has seen the movie Sneakers and what he thinks of it, especially the character Whistler.
unidentified
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
Well, yeah, in fact, I've seen Sneakers probably four or five weeks before everybody else saw it.
I was invited by the movie publishing company.
unidentified
You're kidding.
john captain crunch draper
To actually be at a special showing.
unidentified
Wow.
And it was quite interesting.
The writer who wrote the movie actually says he based some of the script of the movie on some papers that I had written in jail.
john captain crunch draper
So a lot of the stuff in the movie was sort of based on me as a character, but not quite like my story.
art bell
They took their hints from it.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and and the very next day, well after the movie was shown or debuted, I got interviewed on This Morning America.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Talked about the movie.
art bell
Well, you have some.
unidentified
I mentioned on this, I was actually ment I mentioned to the the host of This Morning America, I said, you know, you should check out my story.
It's a lot more interesting.
john captain crunch draper
Anybody out there who wants to do a good movie deal, I'm available.
art bell
You're available generally, from the phone company to Hollywood.
Well, you're being heard in Hollywood right now on KBC in Los Angeles.
So maybe somebody would you know somebody really ought to do your life, Captain.
That would make a hell of a movie.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I would certainly cooperate.
art bell
Would you?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
You'd be what, the technical advisor?
john captain crunch draper
Well, yeah, I've been the TA to WizKids.
unidentified
Really?
Yeah.
art bell
Wow, I'm learning all these things about you.
So you've already really had sort of a Hollywood connection.
But in terms of, I mean, you are not really.
john captain crunch draper
I mean, all these guys would do is send me the script, and I'd kind of like look it over and comment on it and say it's back.
art bell
But I mean, somebody ought to actually do your life.
I mean, I can tell you.
john captain crunch draper
I can tell that.
art bell
I can tell from reading the story.
I put it on my website.
john captain crunch draper
I saw it on my website, and I hope that somebody would go out there and look at my story and say, hey, this guy's interesting.
unidentified
I'm contacting you now.
All right.
john captain crunch draper
My website's got kind of like the outline of my story.
I haven't gotten all my memoirs typed in yet.
unidentified
It's a long process.
john captain crunch draper
I've been working on my website now for a long time.
unidentified
And I'm constantly making changes and updates to it.
john captain crunch draper
I'm always adding new and interesting stories to it.
So it's like a never-ending.
art bell
Well, I think what's happened is we have crashed the AOL and CompuServe connections to the website.
unidentified
So this surprised me in the least.
art bell
Yeah, so we'll get it fixed, folks.
unidentified
Hang in there.
art bell
And remember, when you go to my website, there's a jump over to the captains.
It's right at the very top of the page.
john captain crunch draper
And if you want to go directly to my website, I'm sure the well can handle all the traffic you can give it.
art bell
Sure, it's www.well, w-e-l-l.com, forward slash user, forward slash crunch.
unidentified
That's correct.
All right.
art bell
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
Hey.
All right, Phil, fantastic.
Hey, Captain.
How you doing?
art bell
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
I remember reading about you when I was young.
I'm from Yachtson, Ohio.
Okay.
I fantastic.
Hey, my own philosophy with this food anti-terrorism bill is I'm like that guy, that gasmet boss, the good fellows.
I won't even have a phone or a computer in my house.
art bell
That's what I think about it.
unidentified
What's your take on that?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I don't think I'd go that far.
unidentified
I don't know.
It gives you a lot of peace and quiet, though.
art bell
Well, it does.
That's true.
And if that's what you want, then, sir, that is certainly welcome.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, hold on, Mike.
The phone just cut off.
art bell
It did?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it's okay now.
unidentified
I didn't hear what he said.
john captain crunch draper
Can you repeat that, please?
art bell
No, he was just saying that as far as he was concerned, having no telephone, having no computer, having no electronics gives him peace of mind.
And I understand that.
john captain crunch draper
Well, let me tell you something about that.
unidentified
Just recently, I went to the Rainbow Gathering.
john captain crunch draper
I drove to Droveton, Missouri.
art bell
Yes?
unidentified
And I was without a computer and a phone for a week.
Loved every minute of it.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Yep.
john captain crunch draper
But when I got back and checked my mail, I had probably close to a thousand mail messages waiting for me in a week.
art bell
Oh, good lord.
john captain crunch draper
Took me about a week to go through it all.
Oh, I can process mail pretty fast and rapidly.
I mean, I usually answer and respond to just about anybody that sends mail to me.
art bell
Well, where do you see your mail after this, Captain?
What is your do you have an actual uh obviously you've got the web page, but do you have an email address?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, crunch at well.com.
art bell
Crunch at well.com.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi, where are you, please?
unidentified
Hi, and then 209, Fresno.
All right.
I have a couple of questions.
john captain crunch draper
One, a few years back they had a crack on the master logs and master lock I mean it's a common thing everybody has one you know the combination one yeah yeah they rebuilt they had to rebuild all their master logs because somebody figured out how to crack that I learned how to how to manipulate those locks in jail
art bell
yeah I also I also was wondering about the DSS satellite chips that they're hacking with now so what's the DSS video no I don't I don't want to get into that that'll get us in trouble I I know about that but I don't want to talk about it it's um it's satellite service and the various encryption modes no no call us toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
unidentified
So Scott?
art bell
I bleeped that out, Captain.
unidentified
I'm sorry.
You're talking about HBO.
art bell
Well, yeah, more or less.
john captain crunch draper
That's exactly it.
art bell
Yeah, we don't want to talk about that.
unidentified
No, I agree.
art bell
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, Captain Kern.
Forget about the Mrs. 408, the economist.
unidentified
Forget about the commercial, or forget about the phone company.
What about the commercial applications in terms of bypass systems, i.e. ISDN?
Okay.
art bell
That's a subject we hadn't even touched.
john captain crunch draper
Well, here's something I'd like to say about that.
unidentified
And all those manufacturers of ISDN equipment out there or any other kind of network connection out there, we've got to come up with a standard connection and it's got to have to be everywhere in order for it to really work right.
art bell
Or do I agree?
unidentified
You're going to have to take your laptop, your portable, and you want to be able to plug it into a high-speed network from anywhere.
john captain crunch draper
And that's what I want.
And I'm hoping that all you manufacturers out there get your act together.
unidentified
Yes, I agree, Captain.
art bell
You see, the broadcasting industry extensively uses ISDN and things like it.
And there are so many different lines and so many different protocols.
john captain crunch draper
So many different standard connection jacks and protocols and this and that.
art bell
I know, I know.
unidentified
You've got to come up with the standard, man.
art bell
I think that they're doing it on purpose.
So you've got to keep buying all this different peripheral crap that they sell.
I'm convinced of it.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
Hey, good morning.
unidentified
My name is Jerry, and I'm in Colorado here.
And I had a couple of weird questions.
There was a point in time when there used to be a bunch of rumors going around that you could transmit, like, colds and viruses and stuff to other people by talking on the phone.
Now, I follow a rumor.
Oh, I know it's not true.
Right.
But my curiosity is, how do rumors like that get national?
art bell
Well, because people are crazy.
I mean, it's like you hear somebody sneeze on the phone, even me.
When I hear somebody sneeze, I can stand back a little bit, even though it's on the phone.
I mean, it's just dumb stuff, sir.
There's nothing to it.
Obviously, anybody who can catch a cold over a phone is a psycho case.
unidentified
That's a fun thing.
art bell
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Yeah, calling from Alaska Tay and I count in Alaska, yes, sir.
unidentified
Well, you know, I think we're getting a little bit too carried away with this technology stuff.
You know, I think we're getting a little too techno-dependent.
art bell
Actually, that's a really good question.
unidentified
You know, I went to the gas station the other day and uh from the time it took me to pay for my gas to get to the register the register went down.
Well actually it's not a register, it's a computer screen and the lady said she couldn't take my money because she couldn't punch the her finger on the computer screen there to I hear you.
I mean uh well that's why I went to the rainbow gathering.
art bell
What was the rainbow gathering?
And and caller don't go away.
unidentified
Hold on.
john captain crunch draper
The rainbow gathering is a gathering of of all kinds of different people and they usually wind up gathering at a national park or in a wilderness.
unidentified
Right.
john captain crunch draper
They they have drum circles dancing and they have kitchens and in other words it's almost anti-technology.
Yeah totally.
Absolutely totally it is.
unidentified
Yeah well I'm curious if this type of device I have with a flashlight.
art bell
All right Color go ahead.
unidentified
Well you know if the power grid shuts down and nobody can operate their computer equipment or wherever, are they going to look like my 12-year-old when I take his Nintendo away for a week kind of dazed and it's going to be a hell of a lot worse than that.
art bell
And I'll tell you something.
If there ever was a nuclear detonation of sufficient size above our country, two or three of them, the EMP would wipe out just about every computer system within computers.
Anything transitional would all go down and stay down.
And people have no idea that the precarious edge we are perched on with technology.
It really is true, isn't it?
unidentified
Oh yeah.
art bell
You almost sound like a Captain, you almost sound like a bit of a convert.
Are you?
I mean have you hugged a tree?
unidentified
Come on.
art bell
Have you really?
unidentified
Captain?
Well, what do you mean?
What do you know what I mean?
Have you hugged a tree?
art bell
I mean, I mean, are you on the one hand, you are the quintessential earned myth of the hacker and the guy deeply into electronics.
But on the other hand, it sounds like you're beginning to say to yourself, God, maybe all this is wrong.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I have been known to get out of technology for long periods of time.
art bell
Cast it off.
But you always come back.
unidentified
Yeah, it's always nice to communicate with people.
art bell
Of course.
All right, well, here, communicate with this people.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi, this is Dr. Kat.
art bell
Doctor, whoever you are, you've got to talk up louder because we can't hear you.
unidentified
Where are you calling from?
art bell
2M3.
unidentified
And it's a B-L-A.
art bell
L.A., yes, sir.
unidentified
Number one, we were talking about encryption methods.
art bell
Yes, mm-hmm.
unidentified
And reliability.
As far as the hacker community is concerned, encryption does not exist because the encryption methods that are in the United States today have been hacked.
art bell
Well, in all probability, yeah, we talked about that, really.
In other words, the newer encryption methods, for all we know, there are little doors specifically that were designed with the help of intelligent people, that kind of thing, right?
unidentified
Well, actually, when Phil Zerman released PGP, he released it in source code.
It's meant that anybody could go into PGP and verify that it was written correctly and not have any back doors.
john captain crunch draper
So the source code of PGP is available.
art bell
Yeah, but we're now talking about the later versions.
john captain crunch draper
The later versions of PCP, the commercial versions of PTP, I would tend to not trust this much because usually commercial versions of software do not provide you with source code.
art bell
That's right.
They don't.
All right.
First time calling line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi.
This is Bill, and I'm calling from Eric Kirk 602.
I love doing that.
I have two questions.
One is the commercial devices that you can buy in stores that don't tell you if your phone is bugged.
art bell
That's one we covered.
Captain says they are useless.
unidentified
Oh, okay, good.
And also, is there any way you can tell if your line is either being bugged or tape recorded without technology?
Yeah.
Really?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, actually, Kevin Netnick did it.
unidentified
It's called social engineering.
john captain crunch draper
Talking to the right kind of people, convincing the person at the other end of the coastal that you are not who you are, but are somebody else.
unidentified
In other words, social engineering.
john captain crunch draper
You know, call in the switching office and say, hey, got a box on this phone, mine give out the phone number and say, yeah, let me go check.
art bell
Oh, my gosh, really?
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
If you read the book, Takedown, www.takedown.com, by the way, is a website.
unidentified
Yeah, try.
john captain crunch draper
It's a Japanese name, Kevin, Kent Pronounce Leo from UC San Diego, wrote the book.
unidentified
It was the victim of Kevin Netnick's antics when he went on a rampage trying to hunt him down.
And that was how he got busted.
He corporated farewell with the FBI.
Netnik's Incredible Feat 00:02:21
john captain crunch draper
The FBI did a very good job of tracking him down.
art bell
So in other words, you can actually convince Netnick was able to actually contact us.
unidentified
According to the book anyway, Netnik was actually able to contact.
john captain crunch draper
He contacted the phone company's switching office and actually got a tap removed from his line and actually put it on the FBI's line.
art bell
Does that answer your question?
unidentified
Thank you so much.
art bell
Oh, geez.
That's incredible.
So off his line, that must have been very, very embarrassing for the eyes.
Oh, my God.
All right, Captain, listen, once again, we are here at the bottom of the arrow, so relax.
unidentified
We've only got another hour.
john captain crunch draper
One more half hour to go.
art bell
That's right, and then you're done.
And this will be a classic all-time show.
Again, anybody out there in Hollywood wanting to do a movie on this man's life, and there's a lot more that's been said.
I'll bet there's a lot more you've done than you've told us about this morning, isn't it?
unidentified
Yeah.
That, yeah.
art bell
Lots to read there.
Captain Crunch, John Draper is my guest.
If you're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified
Friday night, Saturday morning, when Chancellor Broadcasting Company presents The Best of Art Bell, featuring Art's most recent interview with Major Ed Daines on remote viewing.
That's tomorrow night on the best of Coast to Coast A&M with Ardwell.
It's indeed safe.
The wish is my five daughters.
What you do with your money is your business.
How you can make more of it is ours.
Results-Driven Investing 00:15:53
unidentified
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art bell
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art bell
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art bell
To get Individual Investor, call 1-800-917-8400.
unidentified
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She got me to do it.
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Always, kids, helping you make a difference.
art bell
BBC, Chancellor Broadcasting Company, for the strange and unusual, it's Dreamland with Art Bell.
What do we discuss on Dreamland?
Two fascinating areas.
Is there life after death and are we alone in the universe?
Two ultimate questions mankind's been trying to answer for thousands of years.
We'll be talking about it this week right here on Dreamland.
unidentified
You're listening to an encore performance of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell
Right now, as you know, February 14th is approaching, February 14th.
What is that?
Oh, yes, that's Valentine's Day.
You do have one, don't you?
Well, to please your Valentine, I would like to suggest, respectfully, absolutely fresh flowers.
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unidentified
She'll love you.
art bell
It's a good idea.
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It includes a card from you with your message and name all handwritten.
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Exactly the right thing to do.
unidentified
Call now.
art bell
The number is 1-800, and they'll be delivered just at Valentine's.
Okay, how about that?
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unidentified
That's right.
art bell
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unidentified
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art bell
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When you listen to Art Bell, he's always talking about his website.
But for most of you who are not yet on the internet, there's that burning curiosity about what's there and what you're missing.
Well, never again would you hear yourself say, website?
unidentified
What is he talking about?
What pictures?
art bell
Now you can read and see all those important stories and pictures in each monthly issue of the official chronicle of America's largest overnight radio show, the Art Bell After Dark newsletter.
unidentified
Now you don't even need a computer to get the information and pictures that you've been missing.
art bell
Subscribe today to the Art Bell After Dark newsletter.
Call 1-800-917-4278 or send 3995 or and a little more to 744 East Tyne Street, Central Point, Oregon, 97502.
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Never miss out again.
unidentified
Call 1-800-917-4278 and subscribe today.
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art bell
Back down to Captain Crunch.
Captain, where did the expression freaking come from?
unidentified
Um okay.
john captain crunch draper
Uh uh when I was originally contacted by the blind kids who turned me on to freaking altogether, they called themselves phone freaks.
unidentified
It was just sort of like blind kids.
art bell
You say blind kids, you mean uh without sight.
unidentified
Right.
art bell
So uh I guess a telephone to a blind person is a is their connection to the world.
john captain crunch draper
This yeah, and this was like in the 60s and in the 60s.
unidentified
A freak is also and also some is also some hair for an outsider or a person outside the estounce.
Somebody different.
Somebody different.
Yeah, yeah, you got it.
john captain crunch draper
And so that term could have been derived from that as well.
So it's sort of like could be this or could be that, you know.
art bell
No, I've got it.
No, that's that's a I've I've always wanted to know about that and you just told me, thank you.
First time caller align, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi.
I'm calling because I'm one of those phone freaks from back in the 50s.
art bell
Oh boy.
unidentified
Where are you now?
art bell
Can you tell us?
unidentified
Yeah, I'm in Denver, Colorado.
art bell
Denver, all right.
unidentified
And I used to whistle the 2600 cycle tone and I used to listen to the other tone and then go home and build oscillators that would duplicate them.
And unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, I never got tied up with a group of people that knew what they were doing with all this stuff.
And I accidentally got into a few places and made a couple of phone calls and also had worked a little bit with the boxes that would trip the ringer before the billing cycle knew that that happened, you know, that kind of thing.
But the main question that I had today is do you know enough to talk a little bit about how they work the billing cycles these days and the time increments that they bill you for in phone companies?
art bell
That is a fair question.
I don't want to get into any freaking modern details because we'll get into freaking trouble.
So the volume companies do bill differently, don't they?
In other words, I see a lot of advertisements.
Some guys bill you for seconds, the minutes rounded off to the nearest minute, that kind of thing.
unidentified
Well, okay, Pac-Bell and AT ⁇ T bill you for the first minute whether or not you talk for the first minute.
john captain crunch draper
They also, if you're using a calling card, they also will bill you, I believe, 80 cents for every call.
That's AT ⁇ T's rates.
At least that's what the AT ⁇ T's rates were the last time I checked.
unidentified
Now they may have changed.
john captain crunch draper
Don't quote me on this.
Pac-Bell also, I believe, charges a smaller surcharge fee, but they're also charged by the minute.
Do you pay for the first minute whether you use it or not?
Now that's a very good tactic on the part of the phone companies because they're going to make a lot of money doing that because a lot of times calls are very short.
Sometimes they're most of the calls I make, for instance, are always less than 30 seconds.
I go up on my voicemail, check to see if I have any messages.
I don't have time on enough for six seconds.
Why should I have to pay for a minute?
art bell
Well now, there is one good thing though about the phone companies breaking up.
In other words, there is all this advertising now and they're all trashing each other saying so-and-so bills you for a minute whether you use it or not.
We don't.
So it's like this company.
unidentified
You're right.
That is definitely a good sign of a breakup.
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
There are a lot of long distance companies now.
In fact, if you get onto my website, there is a long distance company that I'm helping promote as well.
I won't go into details.
You just have to go there and look at it yourself.
art bell
All right.
Listen.
This is probably the longest phone call you've had.
unidentified
It's been a long time.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, my ear hurts.
I've been on here now.
unidentified
How long?
Cock fuck off.
john captain crunch draper
Have you had tests on this long?
art bell
Oh, yeah, sure.
unidentified
Sure.
Okay.
art bell
Yeah, this is, listen, this is not like other talk shows.
And I'll just leave it there.
It's not like other talk shows.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Thank you.
Oklahoma City, here.
Yes, sir.
About 30 years ago, I had a problem with the phone company, with the telephone call that took place on an old rotary phone.
I had called my wife, and the phone, they never picked it up off the cradle, but the line opened up.
And I was able to hear everything that was going on inside the house.
And I listened long enough until I finally hung up and called back and could tell them what was being said.
And my question is about the phone company's ability, say, just to eavesdrop.
art bell
Okay, yeah, we covered that one already.
Captain, it is not possible, is it?
unidentified
Well, I hope.
That depends on whether that phone you're using has been modified.
art bell
Yeah, if they've modified the phone, sir, he says such a thing is possible.
So you would want to check and see if that if that maybe you want to hire an expert and have somebody come in and look at it?
unidentified
Well, this was like 30 years ago on an old rotary phone.
It was just kind of a fluid deal, but it's, you know, it's always kind of bothered me that that ability could exist.
art bell
Well, I guess it can.
I thank you for the call.
Maybe somebody jostled it at the wrong time or something.
Who knows what might have happened.
Well, I don't want to think that could be possible.
Nobody does.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
I just have a few questions.
art bell
Hi, where are you?
unidentified
I'm in well, 805, PID 6.7.
But I'm small time, so you probably wouldn't even recognize me.
I just have a few questions.
Have you ever heard of the Moon Fox?
Or what, Fox?
Mar Sarah.
M-A-U-V-E.
Oh, MoFox.
art bell
No, I haven't.
What is it?
unidentified
Well, it basically says here that it's kind of like a tap without leaving fingerprints.
It's kind of like when you put soap in water and it repels things.
Oh.
Let's see.
It lets your phone transmit to another phone, basically.
And it accomplishes a tap.
That's all it says.
Oh.
Okay.
art bell
What would that be, Captain?
unidentified
Oh.
art bell
Okay.
Good enough.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Good morning.
This is Mr. White, Fenari Coach 602.
john captain crunch draper
And I basically want to give you a quick analogy and then I'll ask you a question.
And this can okay, I'm basically a chess player, and sometimes I'll look over the board and analyze a game I played, and I look at the position, and a lot of times I discover that there were opportunities for my opponent that I didn't realize neither today.
Computers Are Complicated 00:12:21
unidentified
That's how I ended up winning the game.
So my basic point is that everything has its weaknesses, and whatever man creates can be deciphered.
So my question is, when are we going to learn this?
john captain crunch draper
And when are we going to understand this, especially considering computers and security?
art bell
All right, it's a good question.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
Well, computers are complicated things.
unidentified
Software is a complicated thing.
There are many, many, many ways of writing a program.
And a program can be written one way and can be written a totally different way and have a totally different and have yet the same behavior, but maybe inside have it be totally different.
john captain crunch draper
Computers are very complicated things.
art bell
No matter what we do, our privacy is going to continue to be eroded, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and there's going to be some thing inside that computer, or I mean some program inside that computer that that may not behave right.
Maybe some fruit, maybe some glitch caused that program to branch off into somewhere else.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
art bell
It happens, yes.
unidentified
So it's really hard to have something totally secure.
art bell
Well, and it's going to get increasingly hard.
john captain crunch draper
The complexity of machines increase.
It's that that seems to be the trend.
unidentified
Mm-hmm.
john captain crunch draper
It's going to get worse.
art bell
Chaos theory eventually.
Yeah.
unidentified
All right.
art bell
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hello.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I'm another one of 602, but right now I'm a private citizen.
Two years.
We've been trying to find out who was on my line.
And I just found out this week, and I wondered if you'd like to know how they did it.
art bell
I'd like to know how you found out, yes.
unidentified
Well, do you remember you were saying sometimes when you pick up the phone, someone's on it?
Yep.
Well, in 94, I've been cycling this since 93.
US West came out and did a complete overhaul of my telephone system.
This is when my trouble started.
art bell
Okay, but we don't have time for the whole thing.
unidentified
Well, anyway, the party who was hacked in my line moved out of a house in the neighborhood, forgot to take the eclipsing along.
So when I was on the phone, the man, the new owner, was ire, what are you doing on my line?
So we told her.
john captain crunch draper
Do you know what happened?
unidentified
Yeah.
Tell me.
There's a junction box.
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Deal every home.
And all of the wires of every phone line goes inside the junction box.
unidentified
They said there's 100 fiber optics in each one.
art bell
Oh, boy, you really got hacked.
They hacked a fiber optics.
Well, and yet fiber optics turns into analog.
john captain crunch draper
Eventually it's going to turn into analog.
And at that point, when it turns into analog is where it's going to get switched around.
art bell
So she had somebody.
john captain crunch draper
Somebody was just clicking onto her line, yeah.
unidentified
Two.
art bell
Now that is one case.
john captain crunch draper
That's like an extension, really.
art bell
I was about to say, that's one case where those little devices that are supposed to show you whether it's tapped or not should have shown her.
unidentified
That's correct.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that would definitely indicate that.
unidentified
Interesting.
art bell
First time call online, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi.
I have a question.
I'm Jeff calling from the Seattle area.
Yes, sir.
art bell
Two of six, yeah.
unidentified
I'm curious, Captain, if hackers can use the phone company's billing system to bill things onto my phone and even change the numbers where the call originated, where it went to.
Yeah.
That's possible.
That's happening to me, I believe.
That's possible.
It can be done.
Yeah.
They can.
The phone company won't tell me that can be done.
john captain crunch draper
I would be very surprised if they would admit that that can be done.
unidentified
Yeah, they get very vague and they say, well, we'll get back to you when we try to charge this call, and we haven't gotten a call back.
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Well, it's certainly possible.
unidentified
Well, that's what I decided.
Thank you very much.
art bell
Yeah, but what about this new form of that's really insidious of people out there with scanners and decoders grabbing people's cellular phone numbers and going crazy without them?
unidentified
Oh, you mean cloning them?
art bell
Cloning, yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that is a problem.
There's all kinds of ways that people are trying to prevent that, like having a digital signature or an analog signature of your radio phone.
art bell
The captain has not fooled with cloning, of course.
Hi, Captain.
Don't say it.
First time callers, area 702-727-1222.
No, wait, Well, the one thing you're not allowed to do is give your last name on the air, sir.
unidentified
No, I didn't.
john captain crunch draper
I didn't give my last name Art.
unidentified
Oh, you didn't?
art bell
I thought you did.
No, Harrison.
Harrison, all right.
unidentified
And you're where?
art bell
309.
unidentified
Where is TAZ Country Art?
art bell
Illinois.
unidentified
You got it.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
Hey, just for the record, Art, your website drops cookies.
It does not.
Well, the hell it does.
art bell
No, it doesn't.
unidentified
If you ask Keith, I got a question for you.
art bell
I did ask Keith, and it was the browser that was falsely detecting cookies.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I don't know, Art.
art bell
I'm telling you.
unidentified
Can I ask Captain a question?
Yeah.
Yeah, go ahead.
john captain crunch draper
Captain, would you think that somebody that claims to be on the cutting edge of the internet and computers would be on AOL?
art bell
Oh, now, now, now, see, don't tell me.
unidentified
I declined to answer that in respect for AOL and making them more of my calls.
Yeah, don't.
Obviously, it's not.
Let me tell you.
art bell
There are Internet snobs, and AOL is a ...
I like AOL.
I don't care what anybody says.
I have an AOL account.
unidentified
I like it.
art bell
It's easy, and it brings a lot of people into the net who otherwise wouldn't.
Beginners who going through some sort of other provider would be totally lost.
So it's got its uses.
unidentified
Exactly.
john captain crunch draper
He's right.
unidentified
Yeah, that's true.
john captain crunch draper
But I personally, of course, would not use it.
art bell
Well, once you pass a certain level, I understand that some people move on.
But it's still bringing people into the net that otherwise wouldn't be there.
unidentified
Right.
I like it.
You see the Rockies?
art bell
You're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Good morning, Art, 941 area coast, Tarasota, Florida.
Wow.
All right.
So how you doing?
art bell
Fine.
unidentified
My neighbor told me that he had heard that you can actually view someone sitting there watching TV if your TV set is on, that that technology is possible.
Has Captain Crunch heard of that?
john captain crunch draper
No, I've not heard of that, but I don't think it's possible.
art bell
I'll tell you what is possible, though.
Thank you, caller.
We have now video.
I've got a camera sitting right here in front of me, Captain.
And we've got a software program.
unidentified
Yeah, C-U-C-V.
No, no.
art bell
No, it's a different version running up like 17 frames per second of moving video in color with sound.
And I've got it here now.
unidentified
Yeah, well, what bandwidth?
art bell
Standard 288 motor.
john captain crunch draper
288 motor with 16 frames?
art bell
17.
unidentified
Yep.
art bell
I've got it.
It's working.
I've got it here now.
unidentified
That's pretty good.
art bell
Yeah, I know.
unidentified
How big is the picture?
It's about the size of a postage scam?
No, sir.
art bell
It's about a third of your screen.
unidentified
Huh?
A third of the screen, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
art bell
That's new technology.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Art, just break it 909.
art bell
Where's that?
unidentified
It's in Southern California.
Okay.
You were the news.
What I got a problem with.
I've got a phone bill for $185.
art bell
And you didn't make the calls?
unidentified
No, these are correct calls to me.
I had the machine and MA picked it up and everything.
We called the company in Dallas, Texas, which is in Kansas City, and they said we have to pay the bill.
art bell
All right, now listen to what he says.
unidentified
I think he's under.
Let me say that.
Let me say something here now.
A lot of the new equipment that the phone company is installing allow you to be able to have speech detection on collect calls.
art bell
What do you mean?
john captain crunch draper
Well, when you make a correct call now on some phones, especially some of the phones that are in the prisons that only allow you to make correct calls, it's possible to fool those machines and to get them to accept your call.
art bell
Oh my gosh.
You mean to say, in other words, it connects to an answering machine?
unidentified
Or whatever.
art bell
And recognizes a voice?
unidentified
Yeah, because when you it will come on with a recorded announcement saying we have a correct call from and then the name of the person gets announced because it records the name of the person.
Right.
Do you accept the call?
Okay, and the person at the other end can sometimes persuade the machine at this end, you know, the called end, to say yes.
art bell
So how does he approach the phone company and get rid of this bill?
john captain crunch draper
That can sometimes be hard to convince them of a flaw in their system.
And he's going to have a hard time trying to convince them of that.
unidentified
If that is a problem.
art bell
Dealing with phone companies is a little like dealing with a government, isn't it?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah.
I know.
art bell
You better than anybody.
One more, I guess.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
How you doing, Mr. Bill?
art bell
Okay, where are you?
unidentified
Portland, Oregon.
Yes, sir.
K-E-X.
art bell
Of course.
unidentified
Biding by.
Captain Crunch, I have a question for you.
Yeah.
Yes.
How do you feel about the legislation pending about computer or internet information flow?
Information flow.
art bell
Oh, yeah.
In other words, the internet.
Do you remember that they were threatening to, in effect, censor the...
unidentified
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think I'm kind of glad to build that check, you know, check.
art bell
Come on.
You can't.
You can't.
And it would have been fun to watch them try had the bill passed.
I mean, it's just really a tangled...
john captain crunch draper
I think that with the software programs out there...
art bell
It's really the only way.
It's called personal responsibility.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, exactly.
And it should start in the home and with the family and nowhere else.
art bell
Well, that's right.
unidentified
Listen, I have a question for you, Art.
What stationing in the Bay Area carries your program?
art bell
KSFO in San Francisco.
unidentified
Yeah, okay, 560.
art bell
Yeah, 560 in San Francisco, sure.
Listen, give out, now, anybody going to my website whenever it can be accessed again, and it can really now, all through, except AOL, I guess.
Mine is www.artbell.com.
And the captain's is, give it to him, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
www.well.com forward slash user forward slash crunch.
art bell
And your email address?
Crunch at well.com.
Crunch at well.com.
All right, those are certainly your web address is a little long.
As soon as we'll leave up that link for some number of days, if not weeks, so www.artbell.com and you can jump right over to the captain's location.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm in all the databases.
Yahoo knows about me too.
unidentified
Just type in Captain Crunch and be your favorite search engine.
You'll find me.
art bell
Hey, Captain, do me a favor.
unidentified
Captain?
Yeah.
art bell
Say good night, America.
john captain crunch draper
Good night, America.
art bell
From the high desert.
Good night, America.
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