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Jan. 10, 1997 - Art Bell

02:23:40

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - The Entity - Dr. Barry Taff

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	From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening, or
	good morning as the case may be across all these many sparkling time zones.
	From the Hawaiian and Tahitian island chains in the west, eastward all the way across this great land to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, morning in the islands, south into South America, north to the pole, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell. Well, all right. I'm...
	I have a little bit of news, some announcements.
	Nothing but good news, really.
	I would like to announce that the first of the new radio surveys are coming in.
	And we are number one.
	In Los Angeles, California.
	The other survey that came in is San Diego.
	And was there ever any doubt?
	Took about a book, book and a half.
	KFMB.
	KFMB.
	760 in San Diego.
	Now, in this time slot, as in Los Angeles, with this time slot, an overwhelming, overwhelming number one.
	So I want to thank everybody in Los Angeles and San Diego, I guess all of Southern California, for the number one-ness.
	I mean, it wasn't even a close contest.
	So that's good news.
	On another note, as you may hear, I'm going to kind of struggle through it.
	I may have, I don't know, a cold or the heebie-jeebies or something.
	He's trying to get me.
	So I took a day off yesterday, but I'm back today and actually I feel pretty good.
	But it may be a struggle.
	All right.
	I just got a note moments before airtime from Ed Dames.
	The following.
	Hi Art.
	Ed asked me to give you this message.
	He is currently on the Hawaiian Islands.
	Working and conducting what he calls SciTech's most important project.
	He would like to break the news about it to the public on your show.
	The date which would be the most convenient for him is Thursday, January 30th.
	He'll be in L.A.
	then.
	If you'd like to make this evident, please let us know.
	It'll be put on Ed's schedule.
	I have done that.
	So there you are.
	Ed Dames with something really hot, which he will break here Thursday, the 30th.
	Tonight, I've got something very special for you.
	His name is Dr. Barry Taft.
	He was a guest on Dreamland.
	He was the principal investigator on the case, the, uh, well, parapsychological case That later became known as the Entity Case, a movie by the same name.
	The Entity.
	When he was on Dreamland, he told me of some photographs of the real Entity Case and some others that at the time seemed hard to believe.
	I said, you have photographs?
	He said, yes.
	So I said, Doctor, how about sending them along?
	Well, he did.
	He did.
	You're about to hear of these cases in a few moments.
	But if you want the documentation, the photographs that will go with what you're about to hear, then you need to get up to my webpage pronto and take a look.
	The address is www.artbell.com.
	That's www.artbell, no space, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, dot com.
	Take a very good look.
	And if that doesn't put one big chill down your spine, I don't know what will.
	And we will describe these photographs, so if you can make your way to a computer tonight during the show, You're going to definitely want to take a look.
	And I will tell you more about Dr. Taff in a moment.
	Alright, uh...
	Dr. Barry Taft, 48 now, earned his doctorate in psychophysiology.
	With a minor in biomedical engineering from UCLA.
	He holds six medical patents, is currently the CEO of an R&D medical company, developing these patents for the market.
	From 1969 through 1978, he worked out of the former parapsychology laboratory at UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute as a research associate, where he studied Telepathy, precognition, remote viewing, as well as poltergeists, hauntings, doppelgangers, and UFOs.
	Dr. Taft's research has been published in numerous journals, periodicals, magazines, and books over the last 25 years.
	Over the last 28 years, he has been the principal investigator On more than 3,500 cases of poltergeists and hauntings, one of which became the best-selling book in Motion Picture, The Entity, starring Barbara Hershey.
	That was on Fox, 1983, or by Fox.
	He also investigated numerous local CE3 and abduction cases, one of which involved his own girlfriend in 1977.
	He's been on all kinds of TV and radio programs, and now he's on this one.
	Dr. Taft, welcome to the program.
	A pleasure to be here, Art.
	Great to have you.
	And, of course, there is a great deal of audience here that did not hear your appearance on Dreamland.
	And when you sent me those photographs, it took a while, but it was worth the wait, because when they got here, I went, Holy mackerel!
	Holy mackerel!
	So, I'm urging people to go take a look, which they are presently doing, you can be sure.
	And I guess I would like to... I ought to first ask you why you pursued the line of investigation you obviously have.
	In other words, the paranormal.
	Why?
	Well, I think initially it was one of pure scientific curiosity.
	I've always been curious about nature, about why events occur, why things don't occur, but I think what really drove me into it was, as I was growing up as a child, I had what people would commonly call psychic experiences, and they were quite profound and intense, and they were very frequent, telepathic, precognitive, out of body, and my friends and family weren't having them.
	So I was left with the thought of, well, Either I'm crazy, everyone else is crazy, or something very peculiar is going on.
	I chose the latter.
	Did they think you were crazy?
	In other words, did you tell them about this?
	Oh, I told them and demonstrated at times.
	Uncontrollably, unconsciously.
	I didn't know what was going on, nor did anyone else, and I think the most common response was one of fear.
	Because, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, Wasn't very well known or talked about in public mainstream.
	People are, oh well, look, it's still true today.
	People are afraid of what they cannot understand.
	Correct.
	Simple as that.
	So, you began actually having your own experiences, and then, I guess you... Psychophysiology.
	Right.
	Explain that.
	Well, psychophysiology is the study of the interrelationship between the mind, the brain, and the body.
	It's another way to get into medicine without going to medical school, because you learn a lot of the same information, but it's more towards function than towards diagnosis and prescription.
	So my interest was, since I was having all these peculiar experiences, I want to learn as much as I could about the brain, how it functioned, the behavior related to that, and the body in which, you know, held the brain.
	Alright, I tried asking another doctor we had on the other, I think the beginning of the week, about the brain.
	How much do we actually know about the function of the brain.
	How much of the brain has been mapped, and are there areas we still don't understand properly, or how far have we come?
	Well, we've learned a great deal over the last 30 years.
	The amount of information learned all the way from just simple EEGs to magnetic encephalographs, which are MEGs.
	Now we have CAT scanners and we have We have MRIs, and we have PET scanners, and so now we can look at the functioning of the brain in real time, and we've learned what parts of the brain are responsible for what parts of the locomotion, internal processing, metabolic function, things like that.
	But in terms of thought and processing of thought, we're still at the tip of an iceberg.
	For every cell that fires, there are numerous cells around that one cell that don't fire.
	It's called lateral and surround inhibition.
	So when people, you know, euphemistically say, well, you know, we only use 10% of our brain, if we used our entire brain at any given instant, we would die from electrocution.
	Because the insulation around every cell would be negated and we would, you know, we basically would short circuit.
	Is there any reason to believe that for those who embrace the process of evolution, most of the scientific community, We are using any more of our brain today than we did when we first began studying the brain.
	Without having technology around the time where we were first utilizing our, you know, human functions, our cerebral functions, there's no way of knowing.
	I assume that the brain has gone through some changes, you know, as hominids evolved into various primitive, you know, humans, and then we evolved into what we have now as Homo sapiens.
	I think we've changed possibly from the environment, which would be environmental, and we've changed also from the physical environment.
	In other words, we've evolved at a physiological level, we've evolved because our environment has forced us to change.
	So, we might have lost certain functions we possess as primitive humans, and we probably gained things we didn't possess as primitive humans.
	A trade-off.
	They have studied people like Einstein.
	I'm sure.
	Did they not examine Einstein's brain?
	I remember reading something about that.
	Einstein and others that have exhibited abnormally high IQs or intelligence, are they able to find any physical differences in the brains of these people?
	I've never read of anything that's really that specific, that's state-specific enough to say that there were more synaptic connections, or there were more binding receptors, or certain lobes had a denser amount of dendrites or axons.
	No one knows.
	I think when we deal with intelligence, we have a very difficult time explaining it, because there's different types of intelligence.
	There's rote memory, which is the ability to acquire information and spit it back, which is what school is all about.
	Then there's an emotional type of IQ, which is being able to synthesize and integrate information, and then throw out new things that you didn't learn, based on what you did learn.
	And so there's different types of processes.
	You have situations, people, idiots, savants, who can do incredible things, but only one or two things, while very simple, cognitive processing, they can't do.
	Alright, well then it's very difficult to measure intelligence because there are a lot of people who have done absolutely lousy in school.
	Rote memory, very little.
	Concentration, interest, very little.
	Grades, very poor.
	And yet, when they get to be adults, they become great entrepreneurs and make millions and millions of dollars or go on to some other form of greatness.
	So there seems very little relationship between uh... of what is done in school and then what
	may be done later sometimes there i guess there is a relationship
	obviously do well in school and you go on to well in life
	but not always huh also look at it the people in the art i mean not all the
	worst dollars for right galactic academician right and they've been coming
	people of all the two wonderful artists in different fields and
	we know so little about what makes each of us unique and give the potential we
	And I think as time goes on and we are able to do non-invasive, real-time processing of information within the nervous system and, you know, the brain, we're going to understand more of this.
	But it's probably going to take a couple more decades before we really have an understanding of what sparks that light within each of us.
	Do you think we are further along in the mapping of the human genome or the brain?
	Probably the genome at this point.
	Because there's more money being spent on it, and since you're working with something that's sort of, you know, in vivo, that's not connected to the body, we can work with it with more freely and greater independence than you can with a living person, you know, in an MRI or a CAT scanner.
	Alright, let's now talk about things parapsychological.
	Things that, the ability to move things, levitate things, Control things, the ability to read somebody's mind, or even put thoughts into the mind, all these areas of parapsychology, including the poltergeist and all the rest of it.
	Are you able to look at the brain and see any different area at all of function when these things apparently are going on?
	The only thing that What comes to mind when you ask that question is with regard to, there are altered states of consciousness that are intimately associated with certain types of paranormal phenomena, such as controlled, what we call PSI, let's say telepathic, clairvoyant, or precognitive situations in laboratories.
	They've seen altered states, which are what one might call hypometabolism, or wakeful rest, where the person's in a very quiet state of rest and relaxation, but their mind is really quite Active at one level, but quiet at another.
	This is suggested by a high density of alpha activity in certain regions of the brain.
	The respiration is slowed down.
	Blood pressure drops.
	GSR basically goes down.
	And all of this relates to an altered state that seems to be more conducive to the control manifestation, let's say telepathy or precognition or remote viewing, where the body is totally passive.
	And the mind sort of shuts out cognitive processing and is allowed to access information that isn't within itself normally.
	You heard me read an announcement about Ed Dames.
	He's got something big he's working on.
	He was a military remote viewer.
	I take it that you have studied, to some degree, remote viewing.
	Yes.
	How much is there to it?
	Do you believe?
	Well, it's sort of like the rest of what we call paranormal phenomena.
	When it works, it works very well.
	But it fails a good percentage of the time.
	And the biggest problem with evaluating remote viewing information, as with all this area, is to understand that there's a lot of noise in the system.
	For every time you succeed, you fail several times beyond that.
	The best way to say it is that it's a very imperfect means of acquiring information.
	You have to be able to objectively verify the information you're perceiving.
	So when the government got all caught up with this in the 70s, when they conducted these experiments, you have to go out and verify this information to make sure that it All right, here's what I've heard about the process of remote viewing.
	That a target is assigned, not by name for example, but with a random number.
	I've never quite understood how that worked, but it is given to as many as eight remote viewers, completely separated from each other, and then They come back and many times will give exactly the same either written description or photograph or you know whatever the target was.
	They'll come back with the same information.
	That seems to be a discipline that has been applied to remote viewing that has not been applied to other areas of parapsychology or abnormal occurrences.
	In other words, they've developed some sort of discipline.
	Well, we found the same when we were doing our sort of initial exploratory work in this area back in the end of the 60s, early 70s, which much of the government, the DOD's work was based on.
	We found the same thing occurring.
	Independent corroboration coming in within a controlled environment, and it was quite fascinating, but we also found we got independent corroboration, a convergence, and many times it was wrong.
	The information was totally, you know, fallacious.
	Now that is interesting.
	Independent results.
	Right.
	Saying the same thing.
	Almost identical, sometimes verbatim.
	Identical and verbatim.
	But being wrong.
	Right.
	Which means we all, for some reason, locked into the same inaccurate or incorrect information.
	Yikes!
	First time I've ever heard that one.
	Doctor, hold on.
	We'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Dr. Barry Taff.
	And you just wait till you hear some of the stories he's got to tell.
	Thought I'd ask about the brain first.
	I am Fart Bell and this is CBC.
	Call Art Bell today.
	Good morning.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033. This is
	the CBC Radio Network.
	You bet it is. Good morning. My guest is Dr. Barry Temp.
	And he is a very, very, very, very interesting individual.
	He has studied about 3,500 cases of weirdness, poltergeist, hauntings, that sort of thing.
	And he's done it professionally at UCLA, the UCLA lab.
	And so what you're going to hear tonight, I suggest you pay very close attention to.
	A couple of more questions on remote viewing coming up because I am fascinated by that,
	particularly what we're talking about right now.
	Back now to Dr. Barry Taft.
	Doctor, I'm absolutely fascinated by remote viewing and to hear that sometimes Eight remote viewers, or however many, come back with the identical wrong result would imply, I guess, either that the remote viewers are affecting each other, or the control for them is affecting the remote viewers, the control being the man assigning the random number for the target, or a completely outside force
	The information that we gathered didn't lean toward any direction, one direction or the other.
	It just told us that there were times when everyone locked in on precisely the same information.
	And what's bizarre is that we could never tell beforehand when this was going to occur until we evaluated the results of each particular session.
	We had no way of knowing what we were dealing with, but sometimes that information was more precise And had a higher degree of convergence than when it was accurate.
	So we didn't understand.
	It just told us that the process involves an aspect of consciousness.
	Consciousness we know nothing about.
	I mean, no one knows anything about this.
	And it's locking into information at a remote set of coordinates.
	How we get to that, God only knows.
	I mean, with all the controls and the protocol and the experiments that have been conducted over the years, The mechanism still isn't understood.
	Here's an idea.
	I would suspect the control, the person who is the controller for the remote viewers, the one who assigns the random number.
	Now, that person, I think, knows what the target is.
	Am I correct?
	Yes.
	Alright.
	It is possible, is it not, to test somebody for PSI ability?
	Not with a degree of certainty.
	Now, there's no hard and true test that will guarantee results.
	It has to be geared towards the individual.
	If you standardize testing, it's very boring and fatiguing, and you're not going to get results that are very promising.
	So, if you test the average person with these methods, you're not going to get results that are that impressive.
	That's too bad, because I was going to suggest, if you could Test somebody and get a very low PSI result.
	Somebody with almost no inherent ability.
	Versus somebody with a very high PSI result.
	A lot of inherent ability.
	I would think then trying both of those as controls for the remote viewers would be an interesting test.
	Well, what's bizarre along those lines is that we tried, when we got these independent convergence on totally erroneous information, we tried to determine if that information correlated to anything involved in the experiment or any of the people participating in the program.
	It never did.
	It was like we all sat down and wrote the same script without even knowing we were going to be writing scripts.
	It was something along that line and we never really Any connection to anything that could be traced down.
	It was almost like we all decided to imagine the same thing at the same time.
	Remote viewers claim varying degrees of success.
	Many of them claim high degrees of success.
	Maybe too high.
	What do you think?
	Is there any claim that you can validate?
	Well, it varies depending on the people you're working with and depending on the situation.
	We saw sessions where we were getting almost 100% accuracy.
	We saw other sessions where it was zero.
	Zero.
	And the only variable we saw that affected performance in a longitudinal sense, strangely enough, and this was looking backwards on the data, this was not within a priori anticipation, The only thing that we saw that consistently produced a diminution of results across the board was the phases of the moon.
	The phases of the moon?
	Yep.
	And we didn't anticipate it.
	We saw a drop in results that had a 28, well, almost a 29-day, you know, an even interval between the diminution.
	And we looked for what would correlate to it.
	The only thing that correlated to those consistent drops in performance was the presence of the full moon.
	How did it relate?
	During a full moon it was?
	The drop, the performance diminished.
	Diminished?
	Diminished during the full moon.
	There was not an equal and sort of opposite response during the new moon.
	We saw it during Santa Ana conditions with the positive ion charge in the air.
	We saw similar drops in performance, not of the same magnitude, but we saw drops in performance.
	Oh, that's fascinating.
	We try to compensate for the Santa Ana conditions with, you know, negative ion generators and things of that nature.
	It didn't make much difference.
	Oh, that's really interesting.
	Do you think that remote viewing can be further developed?
	In other words, with additional disciplines and whatever else they can do, that it can yet be improved even more?
	Oh, I think with the application of one particular technology Positron emission tomography is a form of scanning the brain where they inject a radioactive substance into the bloodstream of glucose and when the brain metabolizes this, it gives you a very beautiful color scan that shows you what part of the brain is metabolizing to a greater or lesser degree in real time.
	To my knowledge, no one has done studies to see if remote viewers would show changes in certain areas of the brain that are processing at a greater or lesser degree during this activity.
	If this could be done, and we saw consistent results that certain areas of the brain were overactive or underactive during this activity, we might know to reinforce that and thereby increase the potential of the phenomena, or the performance of the phenomena.
	What does electroshock therapy do to a person?
	Well, it's sort of Best way to describe it is you don't remember, even though you know you are getting ECT, you don't remember the experience.
	It's sort of the simplest way, it short circuits the brain temporarily and scrambles the activity in the brain.
	It's the simplest way of describing it.
	Is it almost like rebooting a computer?
	No, it would be like sending a high voltage electrostatic discharge to the computer without destroying it.
	Oh, that's not such a good idea with computers, Dr. The closest I could describe it, you know, there's tremendous controversy over the application of ECT in any respect.
	Isn't it kind of like slamming a fly with a hammer?
	No, it's like hitting a fly with a howitzer.
	Okay, from something like that, a blunderbuss approach, to a more refined approach.
	In other words, The study you just talked about, looking for example at a remote viewer in session and mapping the active areas of the brain and then individually attempting to stimulate those particular areas of the brain.
	Could that be done?
	That's what I was suggesting.
	Once we know what, let's say we had a hundred remote viewers done over a certain amount of time and let's say we saw consistent patterns of metabolic activity in a PET scan in each of them.
	and it only occurred during remote viewing activity or some type of paranormal perceptual process then could we somehow artificially reinforce or enhance that part of the brain or process of the brain of course safely and see a dramatic increase in performance and more reliability so with that process it might be possible to eventually artificially cause parapsychological occurrences uh... poltergeist activity uh... whatever else the ability to what what have you ever seen anybody do doctor have you ever seen somebody move any object with their mind uh... well uh... the most and uh... i guess unique situation with regard to that was when a regular visit the lab in nineteen seventy five at ucla and uh...
	We put him through some control situations.
	You were there then?
	Oh yeah, we were there.
	He bent some keys, and the most impressive thing was not him holding a key and bending it, you know, someone else's key, but stroking the key, putting the key down where he wasn't even near it, and the key kept bending and broke independently.
	What?
	The key broke?
	It snapped, right.
	Snapped?
	Right.
	That was impressive.
	I guess anything could be faked, but He did some other things there, but they impressed me, because... Well, I would take it at UCLA, you would have fairly tight controls.
	I mean, I can't imagine a trick that could snap a key.
	Well, I can't either, but there have been debunkers that have made all sorts of claims.
	I mean, one person, one debunker actually made the claim that Geller had a high-powered laser hidden in one of his teeth, and he was... Oh, for heaven's sakes!
	You know, things of that nature.
	That was impressive, but I've seen things in particular cases.
	I was investigating a poltergeist case about 10 or 11 years ago in the San Fernando Valley, and it was a doppelganger case where the young girl, the young woman, apparently they were hearing her... Well, it started off where objects were moving around.
	Furniture, when she was young, was moving around.
	They heard people walking in the house.
	Doors were opening and closing.
	Um, toys were being moved around, various objects, the machines were malfunctioning, and it got to the point to where the phone would ring, and they'd hear the girl on the phone, and it was her voice, but a younger version of her voice, and yet she wasn't on the phone, and they checked the phone lines, and these things kept happening, and the most impressive thing about this case, the girl happened to be epileptic.
	Now, when the seizures were occurring, the focal seizures were occurring, is when the phenomena would kick up a heel, when the seizures You know, Wayne, the phenomena with Wayne.
	Now, let me get this straight.
	The young girl was present, and the phone would ring.
	And they'd hear her family, and I think her boyfriend at one point, picked up the phone and heard her talking on it.
	As a younger... Yeah, and she was responsive.
	It wasn't like a recording.
	This happened more than once, to my knowledge.
	Oh, that really gives me the chills.
	You said she was responsive.
	Now, this goes to... I'm trying to cover so much ground too quickly, The very nature of what a poltergeist or a ghost is, there are some people who think they're kind of echoes of what was, or an occurrence, something that did happen that is repeated again and again and again in some sort of horrible endless loop.
	Some sort of shadow of an original occurrence, but that can't be Well, if there was responsiveness... This situation was... A lot of these cases are suggestive that there's an intelligence behind it.
	It's not just a feedback, an audio-visual reconstruction of what came before, playing back, and people observing it or witnessing it.
	These situations are strong, suggestive phenomena interacting with the people on a microsecond level.
	And what's impressive is that the last time this girl had an activity is when she went through a very intense trauma.
	And afterwards, the seizures came back, the epileptic seizures, as did the phenomena.
	So, last time I appeared on your show, a number of people called, two men in particular, and they both appeared to be poltergeist agents, and they both were epileptic, and both were on medication.
	The minute they started taking the medication to quell the seizures, the phenomena terminated.
	When they stopped taking the medication because of the side effects, The phenomena returned.
	What is going on in our brains when we have an epileptic seizure?
	Massive surges of electrochemical activity.
	Spiking, spindling, erratic behavior in which energy is being sort of discharged and emitted in a very chaotic, frenzied way as opposed to organized, which is what thought's all about.
	Alright, then we'll come back to that.
	That causes me to ask you then, you remember I mentioned electroshock therapy?
	Has anybody done any study with regard to parapsychological occurrences during electroshock therapy?
	Would that be a reasonable avenue of investigation?
	Well, perhaps the potential harm to the patient would be so great, I don't think it would be worth the trade-off.
	Well, I know, but I mean, in some cases where they still do that therapy, I've never read, I personally have never read of any accounts of that occurring where, you know, psychokinesis erupted.
	And, of course, the difference between normal or, I guess, unassisted chaotic behavior in the brain and induced through ECT might be two different things.
	Who knows if the, let's say, if you took a map, a three-dimensional map of the brain's electrical activity during, let's say, a seizure versus an ECT thing, how similar they'd be.
	We don't know.
	I mean, if they'd be identical, then what areas of the brain would be more affected than others?
	And also, epilepsy sometimes is focused in certain areas of the brain, certain loci, versus others, while ECT generally is more of a generalized response.
	I was just sort of picking up on the randomness of it, and I was wondering if there might be some sort of connection.
	And also, I think the person, you know, they have to be strapped down, because the body obviously would convulse.
	Sure.
	I've never heard of anything occurring, but there might be accounts on record, but I think people would be a little shy to discuss it in a medical environment.
	At the time all of this investigation was going on at UCLA, what was the attitude of the staff?
	Was it serious?
	Were the rest of the professors at the university laughing at the parapsychology lab?
	Well, put it this way, the NPI didn't particularly care.
	The Neuropsychiatric Institute did not particularly care for what was going on.
	It was a very serious academic environment, and they were under scrutiny by government because the government helped fund the NPI and private funding, and they didn't particularly like it.
	It wasn't what they thought was science.
	They looked at it as anything other than science, maybe fringe science at best.
	A lot of professors in different departments in neurology and physiology and psychology were intrigued by it, but they were frightened that if they got too involved it would be self-injurious to their career.
	You're not going to throw away your career to get involved with something that isn't going to lead you anywhere except through personal exploration.
	People had to consider that.
	The lab was an interesting place, because we got thousands of calls every year for different types of phenomena, and people didn't know where to turn to.
	They were at their wit's end in terms of, who do you call?
	Because of the career-threatening nature of this sort of research, Doctor, how much private, even secret, research do you think might be going on around the country now, unpublicized, unrecognized, unpublished?
	Well, given that really good research, if it's properly instrumented, costs enormous amounts of money, I'd say that it wouldn't be at a great level.
	There are, however, people I know, and I will not mention any names, with a very great deal of money, who are funding investigations into these sorts of areas.
	I don't know where that money is going, but I do know it is occurring.
	Oh yes, I'm sure there's research going on all over the world.
	The thing is, a lot of institutions of higher learning, wherever they may be, are more concerned about political correctness and not being cast out of that environment to get money.
	And if they are associated with this at a public level, they're dead in the water.
	And there's still that taint of, you know, what we have in the light of spiritualism, and people don't like it.
	What was interesting at the NPI, they were doing orbital undercutting and psychosurgery in the late 60s and 70s.
	That was okay, but God forbid you should do research into the nature of our consciousness.
	You know, who we are, where we come from, where we're going, and what makes us, us.
	They weren't interested because what I discovered is the academic environment is governed by the ability to use information, well, if you can't make use of it to make money, Control behavior, or to kill people, it doesn't seem to have any direct application in the real world.
	And thank God, most of the government's attempt to utilize this phenomena to do any of the above didn't work that well.
	Acquiring information, yes.
	Controlling behavior, eh, not that well.
	Killing people, you had a better chance of growing your hair back at 95.
	It's not going to happen.
	Not going to happen.
	The idea of all kinds of people with psychic powers of one sort or another concentrating on, say, bursting a blood vessel in Saddam Hussein's brain, that one's a no-go.
	Well, I don't think the psychokinetic effect is cumulative.
	I don't believe that if you had 20 people working on it, you're going to get a better result than if you had one person.
	Theoretically, if there was a person, like an Uri Geller or whoever, or, you know, some psychokinetic medium, who could do that, there was Nina Kolagina, the Soviet Union, who could induce severe electrical burns by just touching you, and could, you know... Really?
	Types of unusual effects through psychokinesis.
	She was put on film and she was very well researched.
	Anybody who could snap a key could snap a blood vessel, I would imagine.
	Doctor, hold on.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	Relax.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Dr. Barry Taff is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is CBZ.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Across this great land, good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell. And though I was down yesterday, I'm certainly not
	out.
	By the way, you know that doll that somebody sent me?
	That cursed doll that we deposited in the trash can with a bunch of salt?
	A lot of people sent me faxes and said, see?
	See?
	That was it.
	Thanks a lot, folks.
	God, that was weird.
	I'll tell Doc Taff about that.
	Anyway, listen.
	To repeat a couple of announcements, the surveys are beginning to come in again, as they do several times a year.
	And the fall survey is in.
	And in Los Angeles, on KABC, in our time slot, we're number one!
	You're going to hear a lot of number one screaming this weekend.
	Important football coming down Sunday.
	So you'll hear a lot of that.
	Number one!
	And guess what?
	In San Diego, the survey has also come in, and in every single category, men, women, you know, you name the age, in this time slot, from 11 to 5, KFMB is way, way out number one.
	Number one!
	As they say.
	So thank you to the people of Southern California.
	Way out number one.
	I mean, these are markets with 40 and 50 radio stations, and we just ran away with it.
	At any rate, I've got a very, very, very interesting guest, and I'll tell you about him.
	I know many of you are joining at this hour and a moment.
	I received a very interesting message from Ed Dames, who said he is in Hawaii at the moment Working on the most important project that SciTech has ever worked on, and would like to be my guest, January 30th, where he is going to break what he calls big news on this program.
	Mark it on your calendar.
	Alright.
	My guest is Dr. Barry Taff.
	For nine years, he worked with the parapsychology lab at UCLA on things strange.
	All kinds of strange occurrences.
	They investigated them.
	Many, many of them.
	About 3,500 cases, as a matter of fact.
	And actually, The majority of the cases, Doctor, came out to be not much, right?
	Well, most cases you're dependent on, as these are field investigations, you're dependent on being in the right place at the right time.
	Not only is it transient in nature, it's elusive and evasive.
	And if it's psychokinetic in origin, if it's stemming unconsciously from one of the people living in the environment there, your presence in itself is intimidating and Um, somewhat, well, inhibiting.
	Sure.
	And that turns it off.
	So, I'd say it's very rare that you're present when something happens to either witness or to record anything.
	But... The majority of the cases, you interview the people, you take down a lot of information, you tape the interview, and you leave, and that's it.
	Alright, but it did happen.
	Alright, what we're about to talk about, uh, there are photographs on my website right now.
	Any of you with a computer, go to www.artbell.com.
	Right at the very top of the page, you'll see Dr. Taft.
	Click on that.
	It will take you to where the photographs are that we're about to talk about.
	Now, the two movies that scared the tar out of me, Dr., were The Exorcist and The Entity.
	And I think because both were based on reality, you were the principal investigator on the case.
	That was later made into the movie called The Entity.
	Tell that story.
	Tell the real story versus what occurred.
	Was the movie close?
	Well, the movie was close, but as with the entertainment industry, they took dramatic license with it, which is, I guess, the nature of it.
	The book, of course, took dramatic license because when Frank DiFelita was writing the book, he said to me, If you had your druthers and had all the money in the world, what would you have done in this scenario?
	And I said, well, we would have placed the woman in a controlled environment and hoped that the phenomena would occur there and then try to document it with the best instrumentation possible.
	Which, as I recall in the movie, is exactly what they did.
	Correct.
	They created her home in sort of a big soundstage, I guess, and that did not really occur.
	No, that would have cost a fortune.
	You know, what I wanted to say, just from the last segment very quickly, was that I believe that if we, or any researchers, had all the money they wanted, billions and billions of dollars, and all the time they wanted, I think what we'd end up with is knowing what the phenomena isn't.
	I don't think our technology is sufficiently developed, or adequately developed, to really put a handle on this.
	I think we're still investigating the effect of an unknown cause that operates through mechanisms we have the foggiest notion of.
	Do you think there ever will come a day, this is speculation of course, when we will figure it out?
	Perhaps, but one of the reasons, and this is my own philosophy, one of the reasons I think we're not going to discover this in the immediate future, let's say in the next 75 or 100 years, that's perhaps a pessimistic projection, is that the knowledge gained is so potentially destabilizing in terms of society Um, we would make it into weapons.
	What did the military want with all this paranormal knowledge?
	They wanted to make weapons and countermeasures.
	Of course.
	And that's where everything goes.
	And if these abilities, these forces of nature, were turned into anti-personnel weapons, we'd all be dead by now.
	Well, surely if it could be proven that Uri Geller could snap a blood vein in a brain as he could a spoon on a table, Uh, they would have him locked up for good, wouldn't they?
	Well, you know, it's true, but you know, it's intriguing.
	He did, uh, Uri Geller did have a conscience, because the military, uh, did in fact, who sponsored some of the research on Geller, the Defense Department, they did in fact want to see if he could damage, you know, military weaponry and or personnel, and he said if people were going to be harmed, he wouldn't do it.
	That was his attitude back in the 70s.
	Which shows the tremendous level of sophistication there may be people who might not have that control or inhibitory factor and just go out and do whatever they want as they do with a gun today.
	But I do think that if we ever unlock this force, we're not going to like what we see.
	I mean, that's my personal view.
	Judgment and feeling based on the experiences I've run into over the years.
	Well, like all forces, though, it could be used for good or evil.
	The problem is the Pentagon rarely has good on its mind.
	The Pentagon exists to basically wage war.
	Yeah.
	But back to your original question, which was about the entity case.
	Yes.
	1974, my colleague was in a bookstore in Westwood in California here, Los Angeles.
	And he's talking to one of his friends about our work, investigating hauntings, poltergeists, etc.
	And a woman across the aisle looking at books for the friend, she says, excuse me, but my house is haunted.
	He said, fine.
	And rather than talk about this in a public environment, which would be disastrous for everyone, he said, let me take your name and your phone number and we'll call you and make an appointment to come out to see you.
	Fine.
	About a week later, We go out to see her.
	She lived in Culver City, which is not far from Westwood, in a broken down little shack of a house, three times condemned by the city.
	She has four children, one boy and three girls, little girls.
	We started interviewing her, and the first thing she told us is that she'd been repeatedly raped or sexually accosted by this entity.
	There were three of them, she claimed.
	Two would hold her down and one would attack her.
	And with hearing that, we both rolled our eyes back and thought, oh my God, this woman is very disturbed and needs a psychiatrist.
	Because we've never, other than legends and strange books, we've never written anything like that.
	We thanked her for the interview and we left.
	And I almost stamped the form, the form we fill out, with a P, which suggests that they're psychologically unstable.
	She called back.
	A week later, he said that some friends and neighbors had witnessed a phenomenon in the house.
	So we came back, and while interviewing her in the kitchen, the lower cupboard door flew open.
	And a frying pan, a heavy skillet, flew out in a parabolic course and landed across the room.
	You saw that happen?
	Yes.
	And we checked the cupboard, the cabinet for anything, springs or whatever, ropes, wires, there were none.
	We picked up the pan, it was very normal.
	I should say that upon entering the house, initially and on the second visit, the house had a peculiar smell to it, like a rotting, a smell of rotting or decomposing organic matter.
	Very foul stench, which was quite intense.
	Also, this was the middle of August of 1974.
	It was very hot, and the house was cold, yet the windows were open.
	Why was it cold?
	The bedroom was particularly cold, which apparently was the loci, the focus of the phenomena.
	Went into the bedroom and it felt like it was refrigerated.
	Alright, now there is something that one would think you could measure.
	I mean, take a thermometer and take it into the bedroom and have another one outside, the windows are open?
	No, temperature didn't register.
	The only real The first instrument reading we got was brought a Geiger counter into the house, and while in the house, the Geiger counter showed normal ambient background radiation.
	When the phenomena started peaking, as we'll discuss in one moment, the needle on the Geiger counter went to zero and stayed there, as if whatever it was was pulling energy out of the environment rather than putting any energy in.
	That's absolutely fascinating.
	So even the background radiation disappeared?
	Now, we were in the bedroom and we began to see lights moving and flying about the room.
	She told us what had been happening to her there.
	Her eldest son, who was a teenager, talked about seeing her being bounced around in her
	bed one night, like in the movie, by an invisible force.
	He went to help her and he was just flipped backwards and thrown into the wall.
	We heard all this, but we saw these lights.
	It was incredible.
	We tried to take some pictures.
	Nothing happened that time.
	But we came back another time and we now sealed off the bedroom from all external lighting.
	What lights, the first time, what lights were you seeing?
	Looked like little comets, corpuscular masses of light with tails on them, flying about the room, always in greenish-yellow in color.
	And we saw these that looked like darting around the room, and you know, there are no fireflies on the West Coast, so we knew they weren't, you know, that wasn't the cause.
	But again, we didn't have a controlled environment, so We came back the next night.
	We sealed off the room.
	Everything was dark.
	And we again saw the lights.
	We brought professional photographers with us beside our own cameras.
	And we did get a picture of one of the lights.
	It was a ball of light with a tail on it.
	But we couldn't tell where it was coming from or where it was going to.
	There was no reference.
	We couldn't tell its speed.
	We didn't know the direction it was in.
	We put up black poster boards on the wall with duct tape.
	Okay, do I have one of these photographs?
	I sent you one of the pictures.
	I don't know if you put them all up on your web page.
	I sent you, I think the ones you put up deal with the arcs of light.
	Now these were, what we were seeing when these arcs were photographed, we were seeing balls of light, three-dimensional balls of light, like ball lightning for lack of a better term, flying madly about the room.
	The arcs of light we never visually observed.
	What we think we caught were the equivalent of time lapses, meaning if you're taking a picture of a star and your camera isn't on a motor drive platform or motion platform, you get streaks.
	We think that's what we ended up obtaining in this case.
	The pictures were taken with Kodak Tri-X film, pushed to 6400 ASA in development, and we used a deep red gel over the flash.
	Alright, I see one photograph says the two arcs shown in this photo, arcs, appear to be at right angles to each other.
	These free-floating spatial images are not bent in conformance to the walls behind them.
	The same balls of light were observed during this photograph, as in photograph five above.
	Now, is that what you're talking about?
	Right, right.
	These arcs of light in that particular picture, the arcs are at right angles to each other.
	And at that time, we were seeing balls of light flying madly about the room.
	You're right, they're like little comets, almost.
	Right.
	And as the closer to the object, it's thicker, and then it seems to trail off as you would imagine it would.
	That's really bizarre.
	And what's most impressive is that behind the arcs, in that and one of the other pictures, the walls meet at a 90 degree angle.
	If this were a projected image against the wall and not in free space, the image of those arcs would be bent in accordance with the wall, yet they are not.
	Which tells us that the lights were in free space.
	What was the attitude like in the room when all this was going on?
	How many people were there?
	Up to 25 or 30 people.
	25 or 30 people?
	And I should say that during these frequent outbursts of light, the woman said that she put certain record albums on, some heavy metal stuff, some really weird music, the lights would come on.
	So we put the records on, the lights appeared, and at one point, in the middle of one of these light displays, an apparition appeared in the corner of the bedroom.
	A large, muscular man, the upper torso from about the waist up.
	You could see the arms, the neck, the shoulders, the head.
	No salient facial characteristics, but a very distinct, large man.
	And at that point, two assistants who were with us just passed out.
	I understand that.
	I wonder if we might call that apparition the rapist.
	I don't know.
	All I know is that we all saw the same thing at the same time, yet our cameras that were firing, you know, consistently did not capture that image.
	They captured lights.
	Just balls of light and arcs.
	Which makes no sense, because it's a paradox.
	You should be able to photograph what you see, and being able to photograph what you can't see makes it all the more problematic.
	Okay, but at this point, with this much phenomena going on that you're documenting, even getting photographs of, you've got to begin to believe the lady when she says she's getting raped.
	Yes.
	That she experienced something.
	The rape is difficult to document because obviously it wasn't a virgin.
	We weren't there.
	We weren't able to take the proper medical test.
	But what was more impressive were one night we got a frantic call and the woman says that the poster boards had been torn off the wall.
	So we come to the house at the middle of the night and they had indeed all been torn down from the ceiling and the walls, taking the duct tape with it, plus the plaster and the paint.
	And the room was a shambles.
	Of course, the woman could have done that, but it's unlikely from what we've seen.
	These were the ones that you had put up?
	Correct.
	To reference the pictures we were getting.
	Because we weren't able to determine the direction or orientation of the lights.
	One night, some candelabras flew at her.
	Another night, the fuse box was torn out of the wall and thrown at her, just missing her head.
	Holy mackerel!
	Now, on the last night we were at this house, Which was October 31st of 1974, and it happened to be a full moon.
	We brought an image intensifier, a low-light scope attached to a camera, and nothing was really going on, except for very weak lights.
	And we asked the light, you know, whatever the thing was, to do something, more than producing light, because it wasn't very responsive.
	And at that point, We saw duct tape being pulled off the wall, off the ceiling, by unseen hands.
	You saw that yourself?
	Yes, being pulled off, and the poster board flew through the room and hit the woman being haunted in the head.
	Landrino, just bang, right in her head.
	We asked again, another poster board, more duct tape is pulled off, and flew and dropped at her feet.
	Alright, Doctor, hold on right there.
	You're listening to the story of the entity Actually, it wasn't then called The Entity, obviously.
	It was one later made into a movie called The Entity.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBZ.
	Welcome to CBZ.
	Music.
	Call Art Bell toll free. West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	My guest is Dr. Barry Taff.
	We'll get back to him in a moment.
	three three this is the cbc
	radio network guest is dr barry chan will get back to him
	in a moment we're talking about case that later became the movie called the entity
	all right back now uh...
	to dr barrett have uh...
	Dr. Taft, if I saw lights flying around a room, even as a professional investigator, and I saw boards and tape flying off a ceiling or a wall, that would change my life forever.
	Yeah, it's somewhat unsettling, although it didn't pose a direct threat to any of us.
	At least myself and my colleague were pretty shocked, but it wasn't like we didn't have the fight or flight response.
	But at the time, at the time it was happening, you could not have known that there might not have been a threat ahead.
	I don't know, for some reason to me it was more like being at an e-ticket ride at Disneyland.
	I was shocked and amazed, but it didn't frighten me.
	It didn't scare me for some reason.
	I guess because everything was directed at the woman as opposed to us.
	One of the pictures we sent you, Um, the woman is framed by the arc of light.
	Um, exactly right.
	It's really significant because it's not just some haphazard, random thing.
	It's framing the woman.
	Alright, now, in that photograph, um, there are, there is the woman, she's sitting on the, is it a bed?
	Correct.
	Alright, she's sitting on her bed, and there are obviously a number of photographers, uh, in the room.
	Right.
	That is the real woman.
	That is the Mrs. B. That's the real woman from the entity case.
	It is.
	Almost 23 years ago.
	And what's important is the secondary arc of the left of the frame.
	Yes.
	That's in front of one of the photographer's heads.
	Yes.
	Which again tells us that this is a three-dimensional phenomenon.
	It was not something projected against the wall.
	As long as I live, I don't care how long that is, I will never forget those nights, because it was something that you read about, you hear about, you see in B-movies, but you never expect to encounter.
	When this was going on, when this arc was above her, what was her demeanor like?
	Well, it wasn't the arc.
	We were seeing balls of light flying around her.
	Right.
	And everyone was just, like, stunned, and they were, like, frozen in amazement.
	And we were just firing cameras and watching, trying to see if we could, you know, see a source for this.
	And of course, there wasn't any apparent source.
	The room was almost pitch black at the time.
	So, the light that you obtained, as a matter of fact, let me ask you, I've got a fax here, it says, Dear Art, what kind of camera was your guest using to take these photos?
	The shutter speed and camera settings don't seem possible unless he was using a special camera.
	35 millimeter, I think it was a Pentax.
	The film speed was 1 60th of a second.
	The shutter speed using a flash with a deep red gel over it, which filtered it into the very light close to the near
	infrared.
	The room was pretty much pitch black.
	The only illumination beside the arcs, the balls of light, were from our filtered flash or our strobe.
	All right. She's got her head down or turned away.
	She's cowering under the balls of light.
	That's what I was going to ask.
	What was she was cowering?
	Like, oh my god, it's all over me.
	This stuff has been harming her for quite some time.
	She was almost ducking as it was flying over and around her.
	All right.
	I guess what's important is the phenomena stopped.
	She moved after October 31st of 1974 from Culver City to Carson.
	And we lost track of her for a while.
	We found her again, and we thought, well, it's all gone now.
	She's moved.
	No, the phenomena moved with her.
	Moved with her.
	And what's very significant about this case, and it's very telling, is that shortly after she moved in her house, people on both sides of her, were flanking her.
	Both of their homes began experiencing poltergeist outbreaks.
	Objects flying around, garbage, you know, things coming out of cupboards, garbage being dumped on the floor, pounding noises, lights.
	And at this time, We had not published anything yet on the case, and we certainly had not exposed her to the media or anything.
	So, what's going on?
	And so now you've got more witnesses.
	You've got people in homes on both sides.
	Exactly.
	They didn't even know her plight.
	They knew nothing about her, what was going on with her in Culver City.
	We went to her house in Carson.
	We witnessed more phenomena there.
	A flower pot full of soil was thrown amongst a group of people and shattered in the middle of the floor.
	We heard strange, like, voices.
	We recorded some strange sounds of, like, a deep, breathing, moaning thing approaching the microphone, and it shut the recorder off.
	Really?
	But we didn't see anything.
	We saw some of the lights, but it never got to the intensity it did cover the city.
	We went back to the old Copper City house, and nothing's happened there.
	Did you keep those recordings?
	Yeah, but all you hear is people talking to the record, and then you hear like a smash, and you hear like voices, but it sounds like someone's walking up to, like a person is there, and they have respiratory problems, and they're approaching the microphone, and then they turn it off.
	That's all.
	It sounds like a B-movie, like something you'd hear in an old mummy movie.
	But, you know, since it's an audible thing as opposed to a visual, It doesn't carry a lot of weight.
	How did you come to know about the neighbors?
	Apparently, they were talking amongst themselves, and they actually came into her house and said, have you had these weird experiences going on?
	And she said, what?
	And they told her, and she said, well, yeah, I've been going, this has been happening to me for years.
	I see.
	So, I mean, you're living a nice, peaceful life, everything's normal, down to earth, and then suddenly all hell breaks loose.
	Yeah, all hell.
	It's a very disturbing situation, and so now we assume that, and I should say, she finally moved out of Carson to San Bernardino, and the phenomena moved with her there.
	She moved from San Bernardino to Texas, the phenomena moved with her there.
	It went with her to Texas?
	Yes.
	And so we assume, because it's centered around her, that it's more psychokinetic in origin than perhaps is carnate.
	There's no way of really knowing.
	One way or the other, but we assume that because it followed her.
	Well, is that really a safe assumption?
	In other words, that it is coming from within her?
	Well, if you look at it from a psychological perspective, she claimed she was attacked by three male entities.
	Yes.
	She had three male children.
	Three male children and one female child.
	And she said that it was a very volatile relationship.
	Extremely volatile.
	It doesn't take a lot to project into the situation that these hostilities and animosities with their children were manifesting or sublimated into our unconscious, and this was the psychokinetic manifestation of it.
	But that's a real big leap in logic.
	I mean, that's like an Oedipal thing, almost.
	Did she submit herself to any medical testing?
	Yeah, frankly, her leader ran some tests with her.
	Psychological tests, other tests, nothing abnormal showed up other than the fact that she was tremendously distressed and very anxious and sort of the quintessential poltergeist agent.
	We refer to these people as being a lot of anxiety, repressed hostility, generalized anger, a deep unresolved emotional conflict, sort of all wound up with nowhere to go, sort of a massive conflicting impulse.
	And she typified that, and many of the other poltergeist agents that I've come to know over the years have exactly the same psychological profile.
	Mrs. B is still alive and living in Texas?
	We don't know.
	We know she moved back to Southern California in the 80s and early 80s, and the last time I had any contact with her was when the entity came out, which was in February of 1983, and I haven't heard from her since 83, and I don't know if she is or where she is.
	Would you like to?
	Yes, but I think the last I talked to her, I remember she said that nothing had happened for a very long period of time.
	It had been very quiet.
	Apparently she'd grown older as the kids grew up.
	Sure.
	Well, we cover the nation like a great blanket, and just in case she is out there and can get to a fax machine, I would very much appreciate it, Mrs. B., If you're listening, because we have promo'd this show, fax me a phone number, which I will keep to myself, and we will call you.
	We are at area code... My fax number is area code 702-727-8499.
	Again, 702-727-8499.
	Be interesting to speak with her.
	seven eight four nine nine again seven oh two seven two seven eighty four ninety nine
	be interesting to speak with her all right doctor
	so that is the entity case but by no means this is where you shocked me last time
	by no means was it necessarily the wildest was it No, up until that time of course it was, but since then we've had cases that dwarf the entity case.
	One in particular, which we call the San Pedro case, or an unknown encounter as the video is going to be called.
	Oh, there's going to be a video.
	Right.
	It's called An Unknown Encounter, which is the video which chronicled and documented our investigation of the San Pedro case, which began in, again, August, for some reason.
	That month is important to us, of 1989.
	And it was a spectacular case.
	What happened, a woman, actually a woman named Susan Castaneda called me and told me she had a friend that was plagued with all sorts of paranormal experiences that were traumatizing her.
	She was so concerned about our belief that she might be crazy that she didn't want to talk to us.
	She finally got up enough courage to call back after some peripheral conversations.
	We made an appointment to come out and talk to her.
	We went out there in San Pedro.
	It was August 8, 1989.
	She was in a strange relationship from her husband.
	She had two very young children, babies essentially, and a little turn of the century sort of house
	on 11th Street in San Pedro.
	We walked in the house and there was that same rotten smell, that same odor of decomposing
	organic matter that was present in the entity.
	Also, something else that was present in the entity, a sense of overpressure.
	The best way to describe this would be if you go down in a deep pool or go scuba diving,
	pressure you feel around your head and your ears.
	Sure.
	If you go deeper in the water.
	Sure.
	And that is a very common effect we've seen in many cases.
	Is that measurable?
	No.
	But it's just something you feel.
	It's a subjective experience.
	If you bring in, you know, devices to measure the barometric pressure, it doesn't show anything.
	But it's a demonstrable effect in terms of pretty much everyone senses it.
	And we don't know what this is, but everyone holds their nose and blows to equal the pressure in their station tube, so we don't know what that is.
	Anyway, we interviewed a woman named Jackie Hernandez, and she told us of seeing a disembodied head in the attic, seeing several full-blown male apparitions wearing clothes from the late 40s, early 50s, gasoline attendant clothes, tucked in high-water pants, plaid shirts, and they were very ugly-looking men.
	And she was at her wit's end, objects should be thrown about the house, fires are breaking out, furniture being moved around.
	Gosh, how long had all this been going on?
	Since October of 88, when she moved in.
	So it was quite a period of time before she contacted you.
	Right, before she got up enough nerve to call us without the fear of being labeled a quack.
	And we listened to her, and she told us a number of things.
	Water pouring out of 2x4s, for which there was no source.
	During the course of the interview, we heard strange pounding noises coming from the attic.
	It sounded like a 200-pound rat was gallivanting around up there.
	She told us that's where she saw the disembodied head.
	So we went up to the attic and took some pictures.
	Didn't see anything.
	Came back down, talking with her some more, going around the house, checking it out, talking to several friends of hers that were there to witness the phenomena.
	We heard the pounding again.
	One of our photographers, an assistant named Jeff Wecraft, He went up into the attic to take a final set of pictures with a 35mm, and he's up there taking pictures.
	Now, when he was doing that, my colleague, Barry Conrad, who's the videographer I work with, and I and some other people were downstairs, and we were waiting for Jeff to come down so we could leave because it was getting very late, and we suddenly hear a crashing sound, and Jeff comes flying out of the back end of the kitchen where the crawlspace was to the attic, and he's white as a sheet.
	He was perspiring heavily and shaking.
	And he said something had violently grabbed the camera out of his hands.
	And I said, what do you mean you dropped it?
	He said, no, it's like he was taking pictures and the camera was just forcefully pulled out of his hands.
	And so we went back up in the attic.
	We found the camera.
	The body had been separated from the lens very neatly.
	The body was on one side of the attic.
	The lens was on the other.
	Wow.
	And yet there was no one in the attic.
	So what pulled the camera out of his hands?
	While exploring the attic with Jeff and Barry Conrad and myself, something shoved Jeff and pushed him across the attic, yet there was nothing behind him, physically, that we could see.
	So, in other words, you were present when he was pushed across?
	Yes, and it looked like the equivalent would be if a very large man had shoved him with great force in his back, vaulting him forward.
	You suddenly see his body move forward, but in a very unusual manner, like someone pushed him in the middle of his back.
	Gotcha.
	And we, you know, look, what's that?
	And he yelled, and didn't know what that was.
	The first night, there was also some viscous liquid dripping out of her cupboard, oozing out of her cupboard, and it smelled very strange.
	It was like a yellowish, viscous liquid, yellowish-orange.
	And we put it into a sample bag.
	We later had it analyzed.
	It turned out to be human blood plasma.
	Human blood plasma.
	Coming out of a... Out of a cupboard.
	Out of a cupboard.
	And we have videotape of this.
	You do?
	Yes, and we had it analyzed, and we couldn't determine the source, because there's obviously no one walled up in that little house.
	Well, when you opened, you must have opened the cupboard.
	When we opened the cupboard, we even pulled off some of the wood panels, and there was nothing there.
	Except more of the viscid fluid.
	So we never made a determination beyond that point.
	Um, subsequent to our first night's visit, um, Jackie was sleeping one night out of the living room because the bedroom, there were strange noises and the bed kept collapsing and objects were being thrown at her and her kids.
	She's sleeping on the floor with her kids and a friend stayed over.
	And all of a sudden, a friend wakes up and hears Jackie gasping for air, choking.
	She sees this glowing, luminous cloud over Jackie, suffocating her, and she pulled Jackie out from under it.
	Now, by this time, we had given Jackie some cameras, pictures when we weren't there, as well as the cameras we brought.
	We brought, you know, high-end, like, beta cams or video cameras, and 35 millimeters.
	Sure.
	And we were obtaining some pictures of lights that we couldn't explain.
	They looked like tracer bullets, traveling in excess of 80 miles an hour, sometimes up to 211 miles per hour.
	Very similar to the entity case, but a little smaller in size.
	Um, one of the subsequent nights, September 4th of 89, um, it's very late, and Jeff's back up in the attic with some other people, and he, everyone's coming down, he's about to come down, he's the last one, we hear a moan, and one of our photographers named Gary Boehm turns back, and he was a trained photographer, and he fired the camera several times, and as he approaches Jeff, he sees Jeff as being hung, yet there's no one Jeff's the only person up there, and there's something wrapped around his neck, and it's got him hung up on a huge nail coming out of one of the rafters, and it's hanging him, literally.
	Hanging him?
	Hang Jeff, and this is one of the pictures I sent you.
	And it's one of the pictures I've got on the webpage.
	This man, Jeff Wheatcraft, is seen hanging from a rafter.
	A piece of plastic clothesline tied in a bowline knot.
	A bowline's not a bowline knot.
	And it was intricately wrapped around his neck, and it produced a very deep rope burn.
	And had it not been for Gary Boehm, Jeff would have been killed.
	Very quickly, I should imagine.
	Yes.
	So he got him down, and Jeff was in shock.
	And all he remembered was walking towards the crawl space, suddenly feeling something pulling up on his neck, and then he blacked out.
	Fortunately, we have a couple of pictures from the 35mm camera of that particular event, and that totally traumatized Jeff.
	I mean, completely.
	And he never again went into the house after that night.
	I don't blame him.
	I don't blame him at all.
	In fact, it probably traumatizes him to this day.
	Do you still talk with him?
	Not so much.
	He's demonstrating symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
	I'm sure he is.
	Strangely enough, he continued in the investigation, but not in that house.
	Jackie finally moved from the house.
	We recorded some other strange anomalous lights with videotape and 35mm.
	She moved from San Pedro up to Weldon, California, which is about 350 miles north of Los Angeles.
	I couldn't go up there with Barry Conrad and Jeff Wheatcraft because of my schedule, but they went up there and more lights were seen.
	Uh, one of them videotaped flying into the shed behind the house where strange things were occurring.
	And that was, uh, the speed of that was determined to be 211 miles per hour.
	How do you determine the speed of it?
	Well, by knowing the frame rate of the video and how much distance it traveled in the frame.
	And across so many frames, you can have an estimate of the speed.
	A lot of legitimate scientists right now are studying Something really weird that occurred in the atmosphere, uh, the upper atmosphere, uh, I think in August.
	Ha, ha, ha.
	Again, August.
	In which an object traveled through the atmosphere at 1,100th the speed of light.
	It was a light object itself, and they have no idea what it was.
	It maintained its shape, which, if projected from Earth, it would not have.
	So, it was a real Something.
	But traveling a lot faster than what you measure.
	Doctor, stand by.
	We'll be right back.
	this is CBZ.
	I'm going to be back in a minute.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Hello, everybody.
	Great to be here.
	My guest is Dr. Barry Taff.
	That's T-A-F-F.
	Dr. Barry Taff.
	And I'll tell you, he's got some stories to tell.
	He worked with the parapsychology lab at UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute for nine years investigated the paranormal, the case known as the Entity, and the San Pedro case, and much more.
	We're in the middle of the San Pedro case right now.
	And there's another photograph I want to talk about.
	As a matter of fact, I've got a fax here from Darrell in Rancho Mirage, and he says, Art, I'd suggest your listeners go directly to the Barry Tapp images on your web page.
	They are remarkable.
	And I suggest you do that too.
	The photographs from the cases we're talking about were sent to me by Dr. Tapp.
	I scanned them and uploaded them.
	Take a look.
	Don't believe our words.
	Take a look at the actual evidence.
	It is incredible.
	We'll get back to Dr. Tapp in a moment.
	And again, for those just joining the program at this hour, the surveys are just beginning to come in, radio surveys.
	And once again, in Los Angeles, we're an overwhelming number one!
	And now, in San Diego, on KFMB, number one!
	So thank you, everybody, in Southern California.
	The first couple of surveys to come out.
	Uh, KFMB just absolutely wiped up the map in this time slot with everybody in San Diego.
	And in Los Angeles, ditto for K-A-B-C.
	So thank you.
	Thank you.
	Alright, back now to Dr. Taff.
	Uh...
	Doctor, there is another photograph from the San Pedro case.
	It apparently shows, I guess, a living room with a television?
	Well, that's actually a bedroom.
	A bedroom, alright.
	A bedroom with a TV.
	And actually, you can see the picture on the television.
	That's how clear it is.
	And it shows an object that, kind of like I guess we were discussing just prior to the top of the hour, A light object just sitting there.
	What was it doing?
	A number of these amorphous plasmas, for lack of a better term, were flying about the room.
	Jackie's child was watching television.
	And these lights were just swimming all over the room.
	So she took out one of the cameras we gave her and started clicking off pictures.
	And this is one of the more spectacular ones.
	It looks, I mean, it looks like a diminutive, you know, a disc with a cupola on top.
	It sure does, almost like a UFO.
	Yeah, right, and another picture that we didn't give you, which we haven't transferred from video to film, the one at 211 miles per hour, when we freeze-framed it and enhanced it, we showed it to about two dozen people and got their independent response, and everyone said, oh, it looks like a little UFO.
	Yeah, that's exactly what it looks like.
	What is the image doing in this type of case?
	I mean, why are we even seeing things like this?
	one of the other pictures i sent you the three balls of light
	Yes.
	yes hovering over the rug uh...
	phenomenally point sources these are have defined edges
	yet their corpuscular three-dimensional nature they overlap each other one of
	the capital shadow over the other i know it's incredible and their and their
	meeting light in only two directions
	Now, let me ask you... Down towards the rug, but not backwards towards the wall.
	Okay, that's what I wanted to ask you.
	There is light, obviously, being emitted toward what looks like a rug on the floor.
	That's what it is?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, that light is from those objects?
	Correct.
	Oh, my God.
	They were taken without a flash.
	Without a flash?
	Without a flash.
	We have numerous... That's just one of many pictures we have.
	This case became so strange, as I said, when we followed Jackie up to Weldon.
	Well, I wasn't there, but Barry Conrad and Jeff Wecraft did, and they were sitting in their little trailer house one night.
	It got very cold and very quickly, and the table began to shake, and the chairs began to shake, and suddenly, Jeff, in his chair, is picked up bodily with the chair.
	The chair drops down.
	Now, Jeff's about 6'2", about 175, 180 pounds.
	He's picked up.
	The chair drops down.
	He arcs up to where the ceiling meets the wall.
	He's knocked unconscious as he hits the wall.
	This happened in a split second, so Barry Conrad, and even though he's an excellent videographer and a really gifted cameraman, there's no way he could have gotten the camera into position because we didn't anticipate this, and we thought Jeff was dead.
	He was unconscious, he was brought to consciousness, and he remembered something equivalent of a giant boxing glove compressing his diaphragm, and then he just blacked out.
	All right, look, at this point, I'm going to ask what I know the audience will ask, because they did on Dreamland.
	So much violence occurred to Jeff during the course of these investigations that a lot of people wondered if Jeff might not have been the catalyst for it.
	Now, this is intriguing, and this is only two of many more instances that occurred.
	Before I get to specifically answer that, on another occasion, after Jackie had visited Barry Conrad's house in Studio City and she left, Phenomena broke out there.
	Objects began flying around, machines going on and off, glass flying through the air, fires breaking out.
	All without Jeff.
	Jeff was there.
	Oh, Jeff was there.
	In fact, at one point, something threw him across the room and gouged out his back.
	We have a video of what looked like a claw just scraped his back.
	And we've got it on camera.
	He was holding a video camera before I turned it off, and he's propelled across the room in a somersault, and you see the camera rolling with him.
	Wasn't it about time for Jeff to consider retirement?
	Yeah, well, this is almost his last case.
	What's interesting about this case, again from a psychological perspective, Jackie Hernandez was in dire straits because of all this phenomenon.
	She didn't know where to go, she had two small children, and Barry Conrad really befriended her, came to her help.
	Besides documenting this case wonderfully, he really befriended her, and she misinterpreted his assistance as a romantic interest.
	But Barry was helping her because he's a very kind and gentle person.
	She would try to get involved with Barry and he just kept her at arm's distance.
	Jackie felt that Jeff, who was Barry's best friend at the time, was the impediment because Jeff was always there and she couldn't get that attached to Barry.
	So then we thought maybe if she got rid of Jeff, Jeff was out of the picture.
	uh... she'd ever clear shot of bearing when i a m discussed with the jackie
	she acknowledges you can get that true but that doesn't explain
	how her mental state
	or anxiety translated to a psychokinetic force that could
	we'll project across the room like a ragdoll and almost okay again
	all of this began everybody should know and brought you there before jeff ever
	Right, right.
	Jeff was just a sidebar to the situation.
	Things were happening before Jackie even knew my name, Barry Conrad's name, or Jeff Wecraft's name.
	There were other things that came up in the case, which suggested that Jackie used Ouija boards with friends, and it told her that there was a man named Herman Hendrickson that lived in the house.
	Well, here's a wild stab for you.
	anderson who was killed them without he was killed on sent in san pietro bay drowned in nineteen
	thirty and that his murderer
	there striking resemblance to jack now we can't prove
	who killed him but we did prove that this man existed and that he was indeed killed
	in nineteen thirty and that the debate that in the archives lawyers a wild
	stand for you had anybody ever considered uh...
	regressive uh... it no therapy on jeff uh... with regard to the possible prior
	life He wasn't too open to that possibility.
	By this time, he was so unnerved by what had happened, he just wanted to remove himself from the case.
	I understand that.
	I can understand why.
	When Phenomena broke out at Barry's house on a number of occasions, we were there with a crew from Kern Affair.
	The stove turned on.
	Bullets went flying through the air, glass broke, machines turned on, liquid paper was floating through the room at other times.
	His editing bay, which is electronically controlled, buttons were being pushed, levers were being moved, yet there was no one near the bay.
	Grease pencil marks appeared on the camera lens of the beta cam, yet there was no one there.
	Could I ask, you were coming from UCLA's parapsychology lab.
	When you got a call like this, or once you determined you weren't going to stamp a P for a psychiatric case on something, and you were really going to go investigate it, how did you gear up to go do that?
	What kind of a team would get together, and what would you take with you?
	Well, first, I mean, if it was back in the 70s, we were very limited compared to what we can do now, but we'd bring cameras with us.
	We'd bring various instruments.
	Sometimes we'd bring a magnetometer, sometimes, you know, an electrometer.
	I mean, frequency counters.
	Um, image intensifiers, which are like night vision scopes, uh, thermal imaging systems, which is infrared video.
	Um, we're trying to document visually as much as we can.
	And frequently we'd have the people living in the environment, if it's so suggestive, take, you know, psychological tests.
	Sure.
	To determine what kind of profile we're dealing with.
	And if it's really blatant and obvious, we don't do that because, you know, we think the history is right in front of us.
	That's what we usually bring with them.
	Now, because we have, you know, we have very modern camcorders, digital handicams and beta cams, and we bring all of that with, because if we can't document the investigation visually, it has no value.
	I mean, it's just like if the fish that got away.
	Well, yes, but of course you have, you know, a number of people there, so you at least, you have witnesses.
	Witnesses, like in the entity case, are very important, but they don't, it doesn't even compare to... Photographic evidence.
	Well, videotapes.
	And unfortunately today, with modern technology, anything can be faked.
	And people always say, well, that could be done on a computer.
	That's computer CGI work.
	And I say, well, you know, just because something can be faked doesn't mean that the real event didn't occur.
	That's like saying, because we could make a movie about going to the moon and make it look like we were really there, that we never went with Apollo.
	Well, yes, but when you add eyewitness testimony, multiple eyewitness testimony, and photographic evidence...
	Then, it seems to me it gets pretty hard for the debunkers.
	Right, and then on top of it, with the San Pedro case, is a crew from Strange Universe went down to her original house in San Pedro, a little bungalow.
	And we assumed this case was a poltergeist case, because they kept following Jackie.
	So, they went down to her original house to shoot some B-roll for a show that just aired the other night, and they enter the house to just take some video, and their equipment died.
	And they came outside, the equipment came back on.
	They went back in, the equipment died again.
	Came back outside, it came back on again.
	And they've never had that happen before.
	And this is what happened to us when we were there back in 89.
	So it means there's something in that house or that environment that's affecting the electronics of the camera or the battery.
	Do you think affecting in the sense that it, I recall what you said about the background radiation disappearing, which is really weird.
	I would have thought, you know, radiation would increase Uh, with the presence of something emitting energy, but just the opposite occurred.
	Even the background radiation disappeared.
	It would be endothermic, meaning it absorbs energy rather than emits energy.
	Exactly.
	Um, so, the key question is, were the batteries, uh, run down?
	No, the batteries were not run down.
	Not run down.
	I reviewed our last show, and your question was, did the camera, was everything normal afterwards?
	In fact, yes it was.
	The batteries were perfectly charged.
	The camera worked fine once it was out of that space.
	Now, what's interesting is that from a haunting perspective, haunting seemed to affect the physical environment.
	Poltergeist seemed to be around people.
	Now, we assume this was, you know, a haunting.
	I mean, for Poltergeist's case, because it was following Jackie, and now it looks like her original house is affected, which certainly throws a wrench into our theory.
	But again, if she can go to someone's house and then leave it and the phenomena breaks up, that suggests that she's acting like a capacitor and she's charging up the environment.
	Once she leaves, people trigger the effect.
	In fact, she visited Barry Conrad's house in the middle of last year to look at some additional footage we were putting together for the video.
	While she was sitting there, one of the glass doors on Barry's Entertainment Center just flew off and dropped right in the middle of the room for no apparent cause.
	No, I've never done that before.
	So again, what's the source?
	And it's always when she's anxious and nervous and kind of wired.
	And it must build on itself.
	In other words, once something like that occurs, whatever level of anxiety you had just went through the roof.
	Right.
	It's a feedback loop.
	It's like a closed loop that the anxiety and the stress creates more.
	Perhaps adrenaline in the body, which then pumps this thing out even further.
	But again, that's assuming it's poltergeist.
	It's a psychokinetic phenomenon.
	If the house is still affected, which certainly there's a suggestion that it is, what's there?
	I mean, is this like a psychovirus where it infects the environment energetically, you come in the environment, and if you're susceptible, it alters you in some way, and then you carry it with you and propagate it at another location?
	What is your best guess?
	A monster from the id creating all of this around somebody or something external?
	I wouldn't even want to guess.
	Or maybe both.
	Pardon?
	Maybe both.
	Yeah, it's like we're like the three blind men touching different parts of the elephant.
	Depending on what part we're touching, we describe it differently.
	But we don't know.
	Again, it's an unknown cause.
	I mean, I don't know.
	You know all the trouble they've had at Denver International Airport?
	Right, on sacred ground.
	Yeah, that airport was built on native ground, against the advice of many.
	And, of course, their luggage system, a billion dollars worth, and all the rest of it.
	They've had so much trouble there.
	That would suggest a haunting, wouldn't it?
	Well, it suggests that it's built on sacred ground, and we've had numerous cases.
	of hauntings in that environment, and it seems like there's some sort of force there that disrupts electromechanical, electronic activity.
	Is it from the ground, or is it the building itself?
	I think it's the space, because we've had cases where old houses that were haunted were torn down, and new condos or homes were built, and the new condos or homes were haunted.
	So it suggests that the space is affected.
	Whether it's from the ground or it's some sort of space-time anomaly, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	But, you know, what's interesting, as I said when I was last on, when I was on Dreamland, we've had a number of cases that began as poltergeist manifestations and evolved into abductions.
	And others that started as abductions and evolved into poltergeists would suggest that the encounter with one alters you in some way to make the next one much more likely.
	What that means, I don't know.
	Is there a way, I know this sounds dumb, but I inevitably get faxes asking, believe it or not, there are people who want this kind of thing to happen to them.
	Well, that's like wanting to lose control of your nervous system, or develop incompetence.
	It's the most disruptive thing that could happen, and beyond that, beyond the physical turmoil and stress, If you start telling your friends and neighbors about it and family, you're going to lose them very quickly because they're going to assume you're out of your mind.
	People still have a tremendous skepticism about this.
	Having said that though, are there ways for the totally bizarre people out there who do want this to open yourself to this sort of thing?
	No, I don't think there is.
	I think that there are certain profiles, certain types of people that are more prone to it than others.
	It may have to do with the way they're physically put together or emotionally put together, which, you know, who knows how complicated that is.
	And it may have to do with certain environments they've come from or they're currently in.
	But I'd suggest that I've known too many people that have been in this area, either as researchers or as experiencers, that have literally come apart at the seams.
	And their life has been destroyed.
	It is interesting you should say that.
	I spoke in the last interview I did with Ed Dames, again, the remote viewer, and he said, you know, in the military program, one of the things we didn't talk about a lot, but that certainly occurred, was that a lot of the people who began to try and do this discipline ended up out of the program And psychologically damaged for life.
	Right.
	A lot of the people that work with us, when we were at UCLA, developed messianic complexes and frequently lost the ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy, and that's called psychosis.
	Really?
	And this is just dealing with, you know, phenomena such as telepathy or precognition, remote viewing, whatever you want to call it.
	At a very simplistic mental level, so to speak, We're not even talking about a haunting or a poltergeist or an abduction.
	Asking to be abducted and having paranormal fallout is asking to be repeatedly raped and then ridiculed in the press.
	I absolutely agree with you.
	I mean, to ask to be abducted, I'd run like hell!
	It's like saying, would you like to go into a physiology lab and to be poked and prodded by people who didn't care about your health or the pain you that ensued and then threw you back out there without any sedation or tranquilizer.
	Do you think there may be a connection between what are known as abductions and the kind of paranormal activity that you have documented so well?
	I think there is in the sense that it seems that whatever forces Alright, alright.
	Doctor, hold that answer.
	Hold that answer.
	We'll be right back.
	we've assumed to be true dot anyone who'd make these claims of a lot of
	people off the wall alright doctor hold that answer hold that
	answer will be right back this is cbc
	the lol artful toll-free
	west of the rockies at one eight hundred six one eight eight two five five
	one eight hundred six one eight eight two five five east of the rockies at one eight
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	is the cbc It absolutely is.
	My guest is Dr. Barry Taft, who worked with the Parapsychology Lab at UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute, investigating paranormal cases for nine years.
	Some of the most famous ones, many of which have been made into movies or videos, books have been written, because they really happened.
	Do you believe?
	Alright, back now to Dr. Barry Taff and let's pick up where we left off.
	Abduction cases, paranormal phenomenon of the type that is documented in the photographs on my webpage, and I only have A few.
	There really are quite a few more, Doctor, I don't have, aren't there?
	Yes, there are many more.
	Many more.
	Yes, the thing is, apparently, my best guess at this point, based on what I've been seeing and experiencing and reading about, is that whatever these forces are that are abducting people may use forces of nature, which we call paranormal, the way we use electromagnetism.
	And if they're doing so, then an encounter with these forces may in some way substantially altruistic physically emotionally
	you know frankly to where we then start
	producing phenomena independent of that source on our own. So in other words
	it may not be exactly the same thing at work but it may be the same forces at
	Right.
	They may have, I mean, found a way to artificially produce these forces we call paranormal through some electromagnetic or electromechanical means.
	We don't know, but we're looking at a very sophisticated technology and we do know that electromagnetic forces can dramatically influence human behavior and performance.
	All right.
	All right.
	I want to pick back up on something else that I let hang.
	And that is, I mentioned that object that streaked through our upper atmosphere at 1,100th the speed of light.
	Could there be a connection between that and what I see in this photograph, these light objects and the ones you talked about that traveled in excess of 200 miles an hour?
	I would know.
	I mean, I wouldn't even guess unless you could, you saw a lot more of those things coming into the atmosphere and they always correlated with the onset of certain types of paranormal phenomena.
	Who's to say?
	But I will tell you one thing.
	That there has been a correlation between what's called geomagnetic perturbation and poltergeist outbreaks.
	This is where the Earth's magnetic field, the mean frequency, starts to oscillate and go up and down in harmonics due to either terrestrial influences or solar influences.
	And when these occur, they seem to trigger outbreaks of psychokinesis around the world.
	Shouldn't these unusual areas of magnetic flux activity be very detectable?
	Oh, they are, but we don't always have instruments running in all locations, and it seems to correlate with a certain altitude, like altitude in certain areas of the Earth that are more prone to it than others.
	So, you have to have your instruments running pretty much all the time.
	Maybe it's like trying to catch a tornado.
	We have very unusual weather conditions.
	North America has a lot of tornadoes.
	Rarely is all those, more and more lately, People do have cameras, but I mean, a tornado is a very strange thing that just dips down, might do tremendous damage, and be gone in a matter of seconds.
	Right.
	And maybe this magnetic activity is similar in a way.
	In other words, a tornado of strange magnetic flux begins to occur, manifests for whatever period of time, and then is suddenly and is quickly gone.
	Well, perturbations can last for long periods of time, but they vacillate, they fluctuate.
	It's not continuous.
	So, depending on what causes them and their intensity or magnitude will determine, and of course how widespread it is, will determine the amount of psychokinetic manifestations you get.
	But we're talking about the really macroscopic stuff, the poltergeist, not the little tiny stuff people have done in laboratories.
	There's a very big difference between the two.
	Are there particular hotspots that you're aware of on Earth?
	Well, the United Kingdom, for one.
	England, Ireland, Scotland, for some reason, seems to be a hotbed of activity.
	The Hawaiian Islands.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	The Philippines.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	A lot of what you might want to call haunting, poltergeist activity in those regions.
	Why?
	Because they've been lived on longer, there's been more activity there.
	Who knows?
	Or it could be there's some kind of, you know, hydromagnetic anomaly or geomagnetic anomaly.
	Alright, well let's try the religious connection.
	Now, it would seem to me that if I were a very, very religiously devoted person, and something like, I don't know, San Pedro or any of the other things occurred to me, I might interpret that as some religious manifestation or miracle.
	And I wonder how many things, right now, all across the Earth, we're having these Merian apparitions and so forth.
	There's a lot of that going on right now.
	Connected?
	Some of these obscure things people are seeing, I mean, they see a strange aberration of light and glass panes, and they immediately assume there's a religious implication.
	That's really stretching it.
	But there are other phenomena which are much more distinct and direct, and it's really hard to say what the cause is, but since the beginning of probably two millennia ago, people have applied religious interpretations to these type of phenomena, simply because they've been around since the dawn of human civilization.
	They've been recorded in one form or another, and it's only natural for people to reach to those lengths, trying to explain something that, you know, they can't come to grips with.
	Doctor, who does the kind of investigation today that you did in connection with UCLA then?
	Anybody doing that kind of thing now?
	I'm trying to think.
	There are other people.
	There's Dr. William Rowe.
	He's in Georgia at a college down there.
	There are some people on the East Coast.
	I can't remember all their names.
	Up in San Francisco, there's a woman named Barbara Gallagher who worked with... I'm blanking out on some names here because there aren't that many people left.
	Well, I meant at the university level.
	In other words, are there any entire departments devoted to this sort of thing?
	Well, no.
	We didn't have a department.
	We had a laboratory.
	A lab?
	All right.
	No department.
	All right.
	Well, all right.
	A lab, then.
	Yes.
	There were.
	I mean, there was stuff up at Stanford Research Institute, but they were doing just remote viewing.
	They weren't, you know, focusing on, you know, hauntings and poltergeists.
	Hauntings and poltergeists, there was people doing work, like I said, in Florida.
	There's some people doing work, but it's not connected with universities anymore.
	That seems to be Pretty much on the way out.
	I mean, there was work being done up in Orinda, California back in the 70s and 80s at the John F. Kennedy University by a number of researchers, but that ended.
	All right.
	Well, I'm going to ask you about something that's a shot in the dark here, but there's been documentation now of something that in popular culture is being called the chupacabra.
	Oh, yeah.
	However, while there's a lot of laughing that is associated with it, There are also hundreds, maybe thousands, of dead animals.
	And I watch Telemundo and some of the other Spanish channels, and I'm going to tell you, I've seen them.
	These animals have had all of the blood removed from them.
	Bites in the necks, all the blood gone.
	Even bats, which are vampires, do not actually suck blood from their victims.
	They bite, and they lap it up.
	There is, as far as I know, no known animal that actually drains blood, and there have been hundreds or even thousands so drained.
	What in the world, or beyond it, could do something like that?
	Well, I mean, on the more prosaic level, you could say it could be a very elaborate hoax on the part of who knows whom to stir up fear and anxiety and tension, especially in Puerto Rico.
	It's working.
	I mean, it could be something as some type of a... I mean, one of my friends who has a Chupacabra site up said it's a hybridized alien, you know, earth animal that's going around doing its thing, and again, possibly to scare people.
	Or it's some type of, you know, cryptozoological creature that we're unfamiliar with.
	Or it's a cemented terrestrial, but they did a...
	I think they did.
	There was an article in the LA Times about this, and there were some articles on some, I think, some of the cable channels, and they said a lot of the experiences, in terms of people citing it, were pretty much explained away when they really researched it.
	A lot of people broke down, and they didn't see what they claimed they saw.
	But there have been legitimate sober people who did see things, and they can't explain it.
	So I think that the basis for all this, there may be some in the
	at the top of it but i think it like it with everything else to get blown
	our proportion exaggerated abolished over time and
	uh... people you'll use this thing to explain things that they are doing
	is there a way doctor to measure uh... whether there are more
	uh... unexplained parapsychological type things going on
	today then last year or a decade ago or two decades ago or does
	it does it uh...
	can you graph it into peaks and valleys of activity?
	Well, there's no central clearinghouse for documenting this.
	No one's actually compiling all this data in a database in a sense that people can really isolate it and identify it and do longitudinal studies.
	The closest thing that I read was a thing called the Central Premonitions Registry that existed with Robert Nelson in New York, I think in the 60s and the 70s, maybe even through the 80s.
	But that was only focused on premonitory visions or dreams.
	The paranormal is such a wide girth of phenomena associated with it that it's really hard to say.
	I wouldn't have expected the correlation between psychokinetic phenomena and the more mental phenomena like remote viewing or precognition or telepathy, because they're two different things.
	Has your investigation, all these years of work in this area, drawn you, have you drawn any conclusions?
	Let me ask that.
	In other words, would you say these things are coming from disturbed people, or that there is absolutely Documentation of an external force that is present.
	You're talking about the hauntings of Poltergeist?
	Yes, sir.
	I think it's both.
	I think that there's unquestionably, there's no question that a significant portion of the phenomena such as Poltergeist is psychokinetically generated.
	It comes from living human agents.
	And there's a small portion of the phenomena that strongly suggests that there's something that's either stored in time and space and can play itself back, or If I were to ask you about the nature of time itself, I wonder what you would say.
	I've always sort of felt that time is our invention.
	survives that can somehow interact with people.
	If I were to ask you about the nature of time itself, I wonder what you would say.
	I've always sort of felt that time is our invention.
	Well, I would say it's holographic.
	Holographic?
	In the sense that if precognition is real, and if we can perceive events that have not yet occurred,
	and the information is very precise and accurate, it's not inferred or deduced,
	then that implies the future, at least informationally, at some level, must exist.
	And my belief is that, and this is from the remote viewing work and some of the other research we did, that all of time's information is contained in all of space.
	So each, all parts, all sections of space, contain all information of all space and all time.
	The same way if you take a little piece of a hologram, it recreates the whole.
	Not the events, but the information that makes up all of space and all of time is contained in each section of space and time.
	Somebody once described it to me this way, see if you like this.
	Imagine a highway and you're in one car and five miles ahead of you or ten miles ahead of you, there's another car and a truck and blah blah blah on down the line.
	Well, in that car, at ground level, you can only see to the immediate horizon.
	You don't know there's a car and a truck five and ten miles ahead of you, but if you were in a helicopter, you would see your car plus all the others way out ahead, sort of in a timeline.
	But that's linear.
	That's linear.
	And this holographic is more three-dimensional.
	We're actually four-dimensional.
	What I'm getting at is the information about I have one occurrence in my life of absolute, unquestioned precognition.
	the next day the next day the next year the next decade that information
	Once.
	it contained in today's space
	just as all of yesterday's information is contained in today's space
	the information about the space in hawaii is contained in this space
	that would be a holographic distribution of information equally distributed
	i have one occurrence in my life of absolute unquestioned uh... precognition
	never repeated dick didn't uh...
	on know how it began like couldn't reproduce it it's never happened again but no
	question about it it was precognition
	Now, you're right.
	That has got to tell us something about time.
	To be able to know something is going to happen, and then have it happen, tells us something about time, doesn't it?
	Well, it also tells us that, I mean, it could suggest that there are multiple futures where there are an infinite number of branching alternatives, but it's much simpler than that, in the sense that the future that you perceive either occurs as you saw it, occurs in a distorted fashion because you didn't see it accurately, or it doesn't occur at all.
	There's only three ways, and if you set about to alter what you saw, and you alter it, then you shouldn't have seen it.
	You see, there's some paradoxes here.
	But if the future is predetermined or predestined, which can't be proven or disproven, then we're living in a controlled reality, where all of our tomorrows are as real and tangible as our yesterdays.
	Do you think that it will ever be possible to, in essence, travel in time in either direction?
	Yes.
	You do?
	Yes, I do.
	I think time, the dimension is real and it's true as the other three dimensions we live in.
	It's just that we don't know how to manipulate it yet.
	Well, okay, then inevitably, once you answer a question like that, people will say then, is it not possible that people from some future date when this has been figured out are visiting here?
	Well, but it may not work like a movie either.
	It may not work, in other words, if we had a time machine today, Theoretically, based on what we do know, you couldn't go back and interact with the past where you never were.
	You could go back and watch it, but you couldn't interact with it.
	Your atoms didn't, your body didn't exist then.
	And you would alter the timeline.
	If you go forward, let's say if you jump 20 years forward, no problem, theoretically.
	But you can't then come back and relive those 20 years, because you weren't here.
	so as long as you can't interact with the past and violate what's called a time or a world line
	then there is not that problem that everybody always discusses about uh...
	you know changing something or killing your father you know all those stories
	right there was we're not creating a cheap science fiction film
	basically in most films there are these incredible you know breakdowns in logic that just don't hold up
	theoretically time should be as easily traveled at some level as space is
	it just that we haven't found out how to solve
	Alright, when we do find out how to do it, and I am talking to some people right now who are very seriously working on a machine to move in time, do you think it will be a mechanical, electrical device that will allow this, or do you think it will be a mental Well, if we travel mentally through time, there's no way of... That's like remote viewing.
	Or like an out-of-body experience, for that matter.
	It's very subjective.
	I think that we will develop a machine that somehow produces artificial gravity.
	That produces the equivalent of an artificial wormhole, or rotating black hole.
	And by creating a warped space that we can rotate at a certain speed, we'll be able to move through time.
	In other words, a real-time machine.
	A real-time machine.
	The amount of energy required might be beyond anything we can comprehend.
	And, you know, I think we have a better chance of building interstellar starships than we have all the time.
	Well, do you recall the stories of the experiments that allegedly took place called the Philadelphia Experiment?
	Oh, yes.
	All right.
	I've had it technically described to me pretty well.
	And they used tremendous magnetic fields With rotating RF fields to produce what apparently is alleged to have occurred.
	So maybe interaction of different types of fields may bridge the necessity for the kind of energy that you're otherwise imagining might be needed.
	Could that be?
	Well, I mean, we're talking about a unified field theory application.
	Yes.
	Theoretically, it's great, but I don't know if anyone's accomplished it.
	I do know in the Philadelphia experiment, they were trying for radar invisibility, and what they achieved was optical invisibility, among other things.
	The physics behind this are probably locked away in some sort of vault out of Raiders of the Lost Ark.
	Did you ever look into it at all?
	I've read a lot of material on it, some of which I believe, a lot of which I don't believe.
	I mean, some of the claims are really outrageous, but I think that Some of the material, the basis for the Eldridge and all that in 43.
	You know, magnetic degaussers and everything.
	I would be surprised if that occurred.
	Right.
	Because I could see the government, you know, actually working with that technology.
	Again, they would certainly want that, be looking for that anyway, to cloak ships which were, of course, being on a regular basis sunk by German submarines.
	Right.
	I can imagine they would.
	Absolutely fascinating.
	I would like to open the lines, which have been ringing solidly since we began, but I have so many questions for you.
	Are you open to answering some questions from the audience?
	Yeah, I think it's getting close to 2 o'clock.
	At the most, another half hour.
	All right.
	All right.
	Let me do that, then.
	And stand by.
	We'll get right back to you.
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	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am, the principal investigator on the case that became known as The Entity.
	And many, many, many other cases.
	Dr. Barry Taft is my guest.
	For nine years, he worked in the parapsychology lab at UCLA.
	We'll get right back to him in your calls.
	Back now to Dr. Taffin.
	By the way, if you want to get a copy of this program, beginning now, you can call 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	And before we begin, Doctor, with the calls, you've got a videotape.
	I guess it's not out yet.
	seven eight that's one eight hundred nine one seven four two seven eight and
	uh... before we begin doctor with the calls you've got videotape i guess it's
	not out yet it'll be out probably sometime late spring or summer
	and it'll the ninety five minute video called an unknown encounter that
	documents and chronicle investigation of the Peter case.
	It covers pretty much the entire case.
	Since it's not out yet, when it does come out, how will people get it?
	Video stores?
	It will be in all video stores.
	It will be sold through specialty catalogs all across the country.
	And I'm trying to think, it may even go into what's called point-of-purchase displays in stores like Thrifty's and Save-On.
	It depends on the distribution.
	And what is the title going to be?
	An Unknown Encounter.
	An Unknown Encounter, so everybody needs to watch for that.
	Alright, to the phones quickly, I guess.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	I'm calling from Kentucky.
	I was wondering, does he have an 800 number or any number or address that we could talk, you know, to write to him personally?
	Good question.
	Doctor?
	I have a number I can give out, but I should tell you that I can't, if you're looking for help in terms of, for people, for us to come out and do work with you out there, we're not funded.
	I mean, we're funded out of our own pockets, so we can't do work outside of this area because we don't have the means to do it financially.
	But I will give out my number.
	Okay.
	Okay, give it again please.
	Alright, do you still have equipment and personnel who would be willing to participate with you assuming somebody Would you fund an investigation?
	Oh, yes.
	We have.
	That's not a problem.
	The only thing is that some of the higher-end equipment, we don't own.
	We have to rent it.
	It's extremely expensive.
	Sure.
	We only bring that in if a case warrants it.
	I understand.
	All right.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Taft.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, Dr. Taft.
	This is the genetically submutated human being abandoned for being non-usable from the ETs.
	Yeah, I believe from various books I've read, Barry, that there's a constant flow of star people of different origins that engage in warfare and simultaneous genetic experiments.
	Seventy-seven percent of the ghost experiences, I think, are due to ET-related experiences.
	Well, that's what we were discussing earlier, whether there was a relationship, and the doctor apparently feels there is.
	Some kind of relationship, or at least at the level of the energies that are utilized.
	Correct?
	Well, more to the point that apparently an encounter with one increases your probability of having an encounter with another beyond that total speculation.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Taft.
	Hello.
	Hi, Dr. Taft.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Boston, Massachusetts.
	Boston, all right.
	A Kirlian photography camera would be very helpful for your work because it shows the energy, the spirits.
	And also, as well as for haunted places, you can bring it to slaughterhouses where your animals are slaughtered and show spirits.
	And you can bring it to places where unwanted animals are slaughtered during the time of slaughter and show spirits.
	And if you bring it to a hospital where someone is going to die soon, And when the flat line gets on the machine and the beep stops, that signifies death.
	You can turn the camera on and show the spirit leave the body.
	Do you plan to try that?
	Well, when I worked at UCLA, we were doing a lot of work with curling photography.
	And I personally, based on the research that's come out, I think that curling photography is basically corona discharge.
	And what mediates or modulates the image is moisture.
	or the lack of it so i don't subscribe to the notion that that it's a way to
	monitor not physical energy my personal opinion so you think that uh... what is picked
	up by kirlian photography is what
	uh... it's a poet it's basically high voltage high-frequency electrical energy to travel to over the
	weekend to the benefit
	and it goes to ground which is where the film is And what modulates the image is moisture, or the lack of it.
	And anything that alters the physiology, emotion, whatever, will alter that image.
	There's no mystery about it.
	There was some great work conducted through the funding of DARPA, a friend of mine did, Back in Boston.
	Does it have diagnostic potential?
	It has diagnostic potential, but it's a metastable phenomenon in the sense that there's too many variables affecting the outcome to control, and therefore it's never been adequately developed for that reason.
	Okay, I understand.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Dan from the Republic of Fremont in Como Country.
	Yes, sir.
	Way up north.
	Way up north.
	I had a couple of thoughts.
	One is a correlation to, you mentioned some possibility of opening oneself through investigating these things to inviting these things to happen in your life subsequently.
	Yes.
	And that reminded me of Malachi Martin's replay the other night.
	Yes.
	And a question was, it came to mind that he spoke, Dr. Taft spoke of Possibly the telekinetic energy of the women in the entity
	causing the apparitions and I was wondering if he'd
	thought of her investigated the possibility of the telekinetic energy from her three children
	actually A lot of the vampire psychic vampire discussions previously
	on dreamland sure Coming into play there all right, and I'll actually
	question. I'll listen on the air. That's an excellent question
	I thank you for asking it We assumed that the manifestation might have been caused by
	an interplay Psychokinetic interplay between mrs. B. And her three male
	children As I implied, the implication of having three children, and the volatile relationship, and whatever, incestuous, you know, libido.
	All of that involved at a psychokinetic level, theoretically, could have produced such a manifestation.
	But again, that's almost as weird as saying an alien did it.
	So, I mean, but that's, it's intriguing because you're one of the first people that's ever asked me that in any talk show.
	I'm impressed by that question.
	All right.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	Hello there.
	I can barely hear you, sir.
	Something wrong with your line.
	I'm sorry.
	Wildcard line, you're on the air, whoops, would have been West of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	This is Jake in Yakima.
	Hello, Jake.
	I thought maybe that cursed doll got you last night.
	Yeah, maybe.
	Morning, Dr. Taft.
	Good morning.
	I heard you talking earlier about doppelgangers.
	Right.
	I wonder if you'd heard the story of the German poet Goethe seeing his own doppelganger?
	Yeah, I remember hearing about that.
	Is there a lot of cases of actually seeing a physical manifestation of yourself?
	Oh, yeah.
	We had a case in 1992 in the Lincoln Heights area where they were seeing The young child, the family saw the child when they knew he was over to the left and they saw him over to the right.
	And he wasn't even home, they saw him running around.
	That's a doppelganger.
	The one you talked about before was on the phone, right?
	It was a girl, it was auditory, it wasn't visual.
	But there are some that are actual visuals?
	Well, like I said, the case we had in 92 in Lincoln Heights, they actually saw the child when he wasn't there.
	He was at school, he was miles away, yet they saw his apparition going around the house.
	Is there ever any interaction with the visual?
	Oh yeah, sometimes they actually think it's the real child, the real person, and they don't even know it until it disappears on them.
	But when you were talking about the one where the girl was heard on the phone, you said that they spoke to her and she responded?
	Yeah, they spoke to her, heard her voice, she talked to them, she knew every decent little detail about her double-blind.
	Is that kind of an interaction with the visual, too?
	Yeah, that's so mind-boggling.
	It seems to destroy so many theories that one might otherwise have.
	About these kind of entities, that it could interact that way is really chilling.
	Well, if it's an extension of the human psyche, it should possess all the, you know, capabilities at some level.
	It implies a consciousness, though.
	A consciousness of this separate, if it is separate, entity.
	Well, there have been out-of-body experiences where people have bi-located.
	They've been physical in two places at once, so I guess this might be an extension of that.
	A first-time caller online, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Dave from Danville.
	Yes, sir.
	Listen, I'm listening with total fascination.
	First of all, it's great to be on your show here talking to you, Art Bell.
	You're doing a real service to people across the country.
	Thank you.
	In any case, listening to Dr. Barry Taft and his case studies there brought to mind an incident that happened back in 1974.
	I was a junior officer in the Army stationed at Fort Knox, and it kind of leads me to a question To your guest there and that is in talking with a guy that lived next door to me in the officer quarters He was telling about the paranormal activity that occurred at West Point And it was really super fascinating And also quite frightening the guy had indicated that they were conducting seances and things at West Point there and you know the things that happened like
	The windows would fly open and they'd hear loud steps across the roof.
	In addition, there were things like activities like ghosts or apparitions that would appear in the cadet quarters that were well documented.
	One could say, for example, that this is this guy's account.
	But I went and talked to other cadets, graduates from the academy, and they had the same explanations and same observations.
	and knew of these things that were going on.
	I was wondering, this leads me to the question to Dr. Taft, is listening to your case studies,
	obviously you have picked up a lot of experience in that kind of stuff in the field of studying
	the paranormal.
	Have you taken that to places like West Point and tried to use that to investigate activities
	there?
	No, right?
	I think I remember hearing something about what you just discussed, but we are invited
	out to the area to conduct an investigation, which you just can't go walking into West
	Sometimes they get very angry if you even attempt to do such.
	Well, let me tell you something.
	The caller may be on to something, though, because I was in the Air Force, one of the least strict services.
	However, at Lackland Air Force Base, I went through basic training.
	What they attempt to do in basic training is to break you.
	In other words, they want to separate the wheat from the chaff.
	Those who will be able to stand up and those who will crumble.
	And inevitably, a lot of people crumble.
	And they are taken to the emotional edge of human endurance.
	Psychologically.
	So it would not surprise me, with those kind of emotions being churned all the time, that there would be things that would occur at those basic training centers.
	Does that make sense?
	That and the opposite end of it as well.
	The discipline that goes into developing a real good soldier at a military academy might enable or endow the individual with enough force of mind to produce phenomena psychokinetically.
	Exactly.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Hi.
	Hello, my name is Tom.
	I'm calling from Omaha.
	Hello, Tom.
	Yes, I've had a lot of experience with photography.
	And the only one picture I want to address is the one with the arc over the head.
	Right.
	I've seen that in a magazine.
	That picture is so easily faked that I really can't see that that would be... You think it was fake?
	It's easily done.
	Except that we were there when the picture was taken.
	And we have the negative and it was examined by the West Coast Interpreter of Popular Photography.
	It was out of our hands in terms of analysis.
	Excuse me, Doctor, it was examined by who?
	The West Coast Editor of Popular Photography, a man by the name of Adrian Vance, examined our negative.
	And his conclusion was he could find no explanation to account for those images.
	Alright, well I can take a photograph, and I can scan it, and I could probably, with work, fake, as that caller pointed out, but certainly not on the negative.
	And if that was examined, then Not a fake.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I had a question about, you were talking about the barometric pressure with the eardrum thing.
	Right.
	Right.
	That's happened to me a couple of times.
	And I was just wondering if that's something that, like, I'm just going cuckoo, or that it's something that... Well, unless you're in an environment where there's other phenomena present, there's a number of reasons that can cause You know, the eardrums or the station tube pressure changes, and it may have nothing to do with anything paranormal.
	Okay.
	All I'm saying is that in these environments, we seem to encounter it.
	So, it may work in one direction, but not in another.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Denver, Colorado.
	Denver.
	All right.
	Thank you very much.
	Everybody has experienced that, what you called overpressure, going up and down hills, but not too much just sitting at home.
	Right.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Taffi.
	This is Brian from Boise.
	Hello, Brian.
	I'm wondering about the alien hand syndrome.
	Do you know anything about that?
	The alien hand syndrome?
	Yes.
	I don't know anything about it.
	What are you talking about?
	People claim their hand isn't their own, and it sort of does things uncontrollably.
	When there's a disease... I only know just very little about that, so I really can't comment.
	All right.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Chaff.
	Hello.
	Yes, hi, Ernie.
	I'm Dr. Chaff.
	I was just wondering, when I was younger, about four years old, I experienced a haunted house.
	My parents moved into an older two-story home, and I lived with the doors rattling, with somebody walking around upstairs when I was downstairs, and it really terrified me.
	It seemed to be attached to the ground because my parents built a brand new house next door and the whole event seemed to move over there to their new house.
	If it moves over to their new house then it could be attached to the people which would suggest it would be more psychokinetic.
	Without looking into the background of the property and doing profiles of the people, it's really hard to determine what the nature or source of it is.
	Doctor, are you still driven to investigate things?
	You said you still would, though you don't have funding for it.
	Well, we investigate cases locally.
	If they're local in the Southern California area, we'll do our best to get out and investigate them, especially if they're active.
	If they're other parts of the country, we just don't have the means to do it, because You have to travel, you've got to pay for your time and equipment.
	Well, I meant on a personal level.
	Do you still feel driven to do this?
	Oh, yes.
	I mean, unquestionably.
	We seek cases out constantly.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Taff.
	Hi.
	How you doing?
	I've got a comment about the Philadelphia experiment.
	Sure, where are you?
	I'm in Medina, Ohio, north of Cleveland.
	Yes, sir.
	I was, about six years ago, I was bartending.
	And I met a guy, he came into the bars on a Sunday afternoon, there was nobody there, and he was telling me about the Philadelphia Experiment.
	He was in the service, or worked for the government somehow, and he investigated it, I'm not exactly sure what he did, but he was telling me he saw pictures of the actual ship, or whatever it was, with the people fused into the ship, he saw movies, Yes.
	like a eight-millimeter film, I guess, of it, of the actual people.
	Yes.
	Like, after it happened.
	Yes.
	The ones that lived in mental, I guess they're in mental institution,
	he was saying, for a while.
	And it was, I believed him.
	The way, just the conversation I had with him, it seemed like he was a pretty credible person.
	And that's pretty much my comment about it.
	All right, sir, I appreciate your comment.
	But there's not a lot that can be said.
	I've always wondered.
	I think something really did go on with the Philadelphia experiment.
	That's clear.
	But if that many people were injured or killed, you would think that there would be certainly records of some kind, although I guess our Pentagon can manipulate whatever they want and people can be reported killed in various ways.
	I just, I don't know.
	And I'm sure you don't either, Doctor.
	Well, it's like Roswell, the same thing.
	I mean, I'm sure there were records about what happened there, but they're mysteriously non-existent.
	Non-existent.
	Missing.
	Actually, there's a lot of records that were absolutely, when Representative Schiff did the investigation, he found they had destroyed, I don't know how many records, of only that particular period.
	How convenient.
	How convenient.
	Doctor, what a pleasure it has been.
	To have you on the program.
	That was a lot of fun.
	I enjoyed it.
	And I suppose it's way past your bedtime.
	Yes, a little late here.
	All right.
	Dr. Taff, thank you.
	I'm sure we will continue to talk of this throughout the evening.
	We'll do it again sometime.
	Thank you, my friend.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.
	Bye-bye.
	That's Dr. Barry Taff.
	And again, to get a copy of this program, three and a half hours, I guess it was, eh?
	800-917-4278.

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