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Oct. 18, 1996 - Art Bell

03:22:07

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Exorcism - Father Malachi Martin (first appeareace)

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	Thank you.
	It's Art Bell's very first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now...
	The very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these many, many time zones stretching from the Hawaiian and Tahitian Islands in the West all the way East across this great land to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands South all the way into South America and North The Santa country at the pole worldwide on the internet.
	This is close to post a.m.. Live talk radio Throughout the nighttime right here Friday night Saturday
	morning and something a little unusual Coming up in a few moments
	Dr.. Malachi Martin And you're in for real treat tonight, let me tell you so
	all of that coming up in a moment I want to remind everybody on our webpage is a wide, wide variety of items that you might want to take a look at.
	The Chehalis Washington Crop Circle, Laguna Hills, Southern California Crop Circle, the Oliver's Castle Crop Circle in AVI format actually forming before your eyes with lights above it.
	Electron microscope images of what are alleged to be alien implants done by a scientist in the Midwest.
	At the behest of John Mack at Harvard.
	And some detailed high-res photos of the Pyramid and the Sphinx by Caroline Davies.
	All of that up on the webpage right now.
	As well as a link to Dr. Malachi Martin's website.
	Right now on my website.
	which is www.artbell.com. www.artbell.com. So to it in a moment.
	Dr. Malachi Martin, ex-Jesuit, former exorcist, and one-time advisor to three
	popes is currently a best-selling author
	As a premier investigator of clandestine politics and unlikely alliances of popes and cardinals, his novels offer rare insights into the men who guide nearly a billion people in faith and broker the destinies of countries and continents.
	As a member of the Vatican Intelligence Network, I didn't know they had one.
	Under Pope John XXIII, Martin helped extend the Church into Iron Curtain countries in 1964, concerned about the corrupting influences of power.
	Martin was released from his vows of poverty and obedience after 25 years as a Jesuit.
	He left Rome for New York, where he did odd jobs until A Guggenheim Fellowship enabled him to write his first bestseller, Hostage to the Devil.
	It was followed by The Final Conclave, Vatican, Three Popes, and The Cardinal, The Keys of This Blood, The Jesuits, and apparently many others.
	He's a very prolific author.
	To give you some idea of how he is reviewed, Forbes Magazine said, no spiritual journey is complete without a Vatican page turner by Malachi Martin.
	Sacramento Bee said, it is to Martin's credit that his real life fictional cardinals have flesh, blood, and bone.
	Sometimes the heart of a South Chicago ward healer.
	The Dallas Morning News said, in biblical times they would have called him a prophet.
	Publishers Weekly said it is impossible not to be impressed with Martin's profound knowledge of men, issues, and history.
	I could go on and on and on and on.
	For 30 years, as a Catholic priest, Dr. Martin did exorcisms.
	So, from New York City, Staying up late, here is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Doctor, welcome to the program.
	Very good morning there, Art.
	How are you?
	Oh, I am very well, and I am so honored to have you here.
	No, I'm really privileged to be talking on this vast network.
	It is really universal.
	It really is universal now.
	It's amazing.
	I heard you describe it from north to south to east to west.
	Oh yes, yes, yes.
	It covers a lot of territory.
	My background, Doctor, is not Catholicism.
	I'm not Catholic.
	My wife is.
	So I'm going to stumble and bumble and I hope you'll bear with me.
	I doubt that you could stumble and bumble in anything.
	But anyway, we'll take that as a simple statement.
	And take this also as a simple statement.
	Many years ago, many years ago now, you can tell me how many, the movie The Exorcist came out.
	It was the first of its kind, really, major movies, and it scared the hell out of me, to be honest with you.
	And as no movie, even with all their horrible little monsters, ever has since.
	And I'm not sure why.
	Isn't that funny?
	Isn't that interesting?
	I find that very curious, I really do.
	Even more than any of the Dracula and the Frankenstein films.
	Even more than the movies, Alien, where monsters are popping out of people's bellies and all sorts of horrible things.
	And I think the reason is because I viewed The Exorcist as real.
	Yes, I think so.
	It did touch on a chord.
	The existence of a demon which could, on occasion, inhabit the body of some human being.
	I think that might be the element.
	It was said also, that particular picture was set in Washington, real live time Washington, you know, and you had real live looking characters undergoing these horrible contortions and distortions.
	So I suppose it did.
	The fact is, Art, the fact is, that at the back of our consciousness, at the back of our consciousness, at least in, I was going to say in the West, but then I know it's the same in India, same in China, same in Japan, and in Latin America, at the back of our consciousness there's always a fear of the evil one.
	Yes.
	Well, there may be a reason for that.
	The evil one.
	Now, let me start there by asking you, is there a difference between possession by the devil and possession by a demon?
	Yes, there is.
	You see, the mythology or the legend or the doctrine or the teaching, whichever you want to regard it as, it holds That there is a major evil spirit called Lucifer.
	And there is another one called Satan.
	And they are accompanied by or they are among many, many smaller demons.
	And these do attack and possess human beings in their will and their intellect.
	That's the general sort of picture you get from books and studies and doctrine and teaching about the devil and about evil.
	And I think what I was saying was that I think at the edge of our consciousness there's always a fear that perhaps indeed there is such a thing, if we don't believe it.
	We Catholics do hold it, and Christians in general do hold it, but there's a consciousness, there's some evil spirit at work.
	It could be in our world, and we're afraid of it.
	And that it can, according to the belief in many parts of the world and in many parts of history of man, there is a possibility of being possessed, of one's body being dominated by such an evil spirit and used for nefarious ends.
	Doctor, the devil, is the devil a fallen angel?
	Is that correct?
	That's the idea.
	They are all fallen angels.
	The idea is that once upon a time, one third of the angels of God revolted against him and were condemned to hell and became demons.
	What was the purpose of that rebellion, Doctor?
	The purpose of the rebellion was simply the ambition of one spirit, Lucifer, the son of the dawn, that's what his name means, the light bearer or the son of the dawn, who said, I will not serve.
	I will be equal to God.
	And he was opposed by one spirit who said, who is like unto God?
	And that's the name of Michael, Michael, who is like unto God.
	And there was this supposedly this huge battle between the spirits and the demons lost.
	And Michael and those fighting for God won.
	And forever, the fallen angels, those who rebelled, are condemned to hell and condemned to be evil and to promote evil amongst human beings.
	How do we, human beings, fit into the picture?
	It's almost as though the war is over human beings.
	Yes, it is over human beings.
	The teaching is that once upon a time, God envisaged the world inhabited by men and women And served by angels.
	But when Lucifer and Satan and the other demons, then angels, were asked to collaborate and cooperate and serve human beings, especially one particular human being, who would be God, namely Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, they said, No!
	We are angels.
	We are superior to these material beings.
	We haven't got their limitations.
	And we don't die.
	And we haven't got material bodies.
	We are pure spirits.
	So they were destined originally to serve human beings, and they refused.
	Doctor, how old were you when you became a priest?
	I was thirty-three.
	Thirty-three.
	Thirty-three.
	And that was in 1954.
	it uh... that was in nineteen fifty four and when did you first encounter
	uh... as a young priest how did you encounter anybody who was possessed i
	How many exorcisms have you done?
	I've done thousands of minor exorcisms and about a couple of hundred major ones.
	Major ones, in duration and in intensity, are difficult, very difficult.
	They're far fewer than the thousands of exorcisms you do every year.
	Exorcisms against various ailments like, for instance, a persecution complex, where you're really being obsessed by a devil or a demon, or alcoholism, or the human ills, the list is enormous.
	Now, I first of all came across it in Cairo.
	That was the first time that I assisted at an exorcism.
	Cairo, Egypt?
	Cairo, Egypt.
	I was there.
	I originally started off as an archaeologist, and I was an expert in handwriting, ancient handwriting, about the time of Abraham.
	That's about 1700 B.C.
	That's about, what, 3000-something years ago.
	But I was roped in one evening because an exorcism which was taking place in the poorer quarter of Cairo, the assistant to the exorcist, there's always an exorcist and an assistant, The assistant had fallen ill, and I was asked to substitute, and that was my first experience.
	Well, it was my, it is my understanding, again, I'm operating from total ignorance here, other than the movies that I've seen, and it may be all wrong, but my understanding is the Catholic Church does not lightly undertake to do an exorcism.
	How does it decide?
	It decides this way.
	Alright, so somebody comes to the church authorities and says, look, my uncle, my brother, my wife, my sister, my brother, whatever it is, they are showing very funny signs and usually in every good, well-run diocese there's an exorcist, that is a priest appointed by the local bishop to deal with this.
	So the first thing you do is examine them Get them examined by a doctor and find out are they physically sound.
	Certainly.
	There are ailments like Latourette Syndrome or Huntington's Chorea or a simple tumor on the brain which produces phenomena, produces events in a person's life that look very like possession but are not.
	So you must first of all satisfy yourself that there's nothing physical, no physical basis.
	Then one or two expert psychiatrists Usually people who don't believe in God, by the way, because they're skeptical, must tackle you and find out, are you just plain loony?
	Or is it something they don't understand?
	They come back with a report saying, well, the pattern is normal.
	We can't explain it.
	Then the church authorities generally say, OK, let's try exorcism.
	And in the first 20 minutes, Believe you me, in the first 20 minutes, everybody at an exorcism ceremony knows whether it's genuine or not.
	It's quite clear.
	In the longest or the hardest exorcisms, how long typically might it go on?
	It can go on for... the classic one in the United States was about two and a half years long.
	Two and a half years?
	Two and a half years, yeah.
	It's been written up very recently.
	By a simple reporter who simply chronicled the entire thing.
	But I've existed at ones which went on for, oh, 17 weeks.
	Oh, my goodness.
	Sometimes it's only a week.
	Sometimes it's only hours.
	It depends.
	It depends on the tenacity of the demon in possession.
	It depends on the antecedents of the person.
	It depends on so many factors, you just can't predict.
	You go into it blind, in that sense.
	You said, again, you said demons, so the majority of possessions are by demons.
	That's right, they are.
	All true possession is by demons.
	Now, you see, there's a distinction between possession and obsession.
	Obsession is where somebody is being bothered continually by, for instance, cases I have in hand at the present moment, Of people who are bothered continually by appearances of animals with human faces bothering them, or pressures on them at night when they want to go to sleep.
	Yes.
	And funny faces and funny things happening to them.
	And you finally, when you rationalize it all and have the person examined physically and mentally, you come to the conclusion there are objective events taking place And they are being bothered and obsessed by a demon and then you set about chasing that demon away.
	Of those that have gone past the medical doctor and the psychiatrists, what percentage would you say turn out to be actual cases of possession?
	My experience would say About eighty percent.
	Eighty percent.
	Then I would also ask, you said examined by two psychiatrists who do not necessarily believe in God.
	That's right.
	Generally, I've always tried to use the services and the skills of psychiatrists who will tell you I'm an atheist.
	You know, I really don't believe practically in God.
	Really?
	Well, they're not influenced, therefore, by any prejudice.
	So then there is a good use for even the atheists?
	Although I must tell you that I've only found one or two psychiatrists who wanted to assist in an exorcism, and generally, one of them I wrote about, Dr. Hammond, he simply gave up all psychiatry.
	He did?
	Once he went into the real thing.
	My question was going to be, how many people who thought they were possessed, Were diagnosed, in your opinion, incorrectly by psychiatrists who might tend to, because of their own prejudice, want to claim this apparent malady as their own territory.
	So how many never made it to you because they were incorrectly diagnosed?
	A very great number.
	Especially when we come down to a thing called MPDs.
	It's an abbreviation used by psychiatrists for multiple personality disorders.
	That is, you know, say, let's take the name Hilda, and Hilda says that she becomes Mary in certain occasions, then she becomes Joan on other occasions, and she becomes Geraldine on third occasions, you know, multiple personality disorder.
	And for a long time, MPDs were simply analyzed as MPDs.
	And then, under certain circumstances, they began to find out that it was much more than that.
	It was a case of demonic possession.
	And that has to be very carefully distinguished, because you can make a dreadful mistake and think a true MPD is possessed, or vice versa, that a person really possessed is an MPD.
	Well, then I would ask, I guess, can a person be possessed by more than one entity?
	Oh yes, and the same demon can possess three people at the same time.
	Oh my!
	It all depends.
	The variation is tremendous.
	And nobody... You see, Art, this is a very dirty Unhealthy, inhuman, insalubrious, wicked, and unnatural process and event, and nobody should touch it with a barge pole, except somebody trained, and even then, to be very careful, because it's highly dangerous.
	For instance, if you start any nonsense, real exorcism, and a lot of people don't know the difference between that and therapy, the difference between that and prayer, Our healing prayer, deliverance prayer, as they call it.
	But if you start something like that and don't finish it, you're going to have trouble for the rest of your life.
	Well, I was going to ask you about the danger to yourself, and I will do that when we come back.
	Dr. Martin, stand by.
	We'll come back to you in a moment.
	Sure.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	For 30 years, he did exorcisms and was in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.
	It's going to be a very interesting evening.
	I suggest you stay right where you are.
	This is a production of the Costa Costa Public Library.
	Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM is an Encore presentation from 19...
	It's five hours with Art Bell and one of his most beloved guests, Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very first interview with Art Bell and Father Malachi Martin on this Coast to Coast AM.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good evening, good morning, whatever the case may be.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	and we'll get back to them in a moment.
	Back now to Dr. Malachi Martindale.
	Doctor, are you there?
	Of course I am.
	Good.
	Good.
	I've been to everything.
	I'm fascinated.
	Is there now or is there going to be an Antichrist?
	Whether there is now is a question.
	There is going to be an Antichrist and I think the best thing we can do is talk about his public appearance because he may already be in existence.
	For me to say he is in existence would immediately provoke The question is, where is he and what is he doing?
	Yes.
	And I want to avoid that.
	Yes.
	But he will be manifest publicly within a reasonable amount of time.
	Most people who are 20-something or 30-something will come across Antichrist in their life.
	I'm 76.
	I may not.
	How will we know him?
	We will know him by two main qualities.
	First of all, he will arrive at a time when we as a race have what looks like insuperable problems.
	Supposing we have, we discover we have insuperable, really insuperable environmental problems.
	Yes sir.
	Supposing we find we have insuperable health problems, a disease.
	Yes sir.
	Wasting nation after nation.
	That's the first thing.
	He will have solutions for those problems.
	He will have wise solutions, solutions that are real solutions.
	And number two, the result of his intervention and the result of his solutions will be such that people will say, you must be God.
	And he will accept that attribute.
	He will accept that.
	Yes, he will accept that.
	Those are the three marks of the Antichrist.
	Well, you've already done it to me.
	You're already giving me chills.
	I've been a talk show host, Doctor, for about, in this incarnation, 13 years.
	A long time.
	Doing this program.
	And in the last several years, Doctor, I've begun to observe something that I just picked a word and I began to call it the quickening.
	It's a very good word.
	It's a very discerning word.
	You must speak from experience.
	Well, I speak from watching the news of what man is doing by the day.
	Doctor, and by this quickening, I mean socially, I'm watching these horrible things happening.
	Yesterday, as just an example, in Sacramento, a man ...was holed up and killed his two children in front of his wife, and then in front of his wife killed himself.
	This kind of senseless, mindless, unbelievable behavior socially.
	And it's not isolated, my God.
	I know.
	It's not isolated.
	Politically, Doctor, I look around and I see no sense to what is going on.
	We have lost our way.
	We have lost our way.
	There's no doubt about that.
	Could I speak in something at this moment, Arch?
	Could I make a remark?
	You may, indeed.
	There is, in scripture and in tradition, and by the way, I'm a Roman Catholic, so I'm not sort of dependent on the Bible as Protestants are, and that's their choice, but there is a thing called the mystery of iniquity, and it's a very constant teaching of the Bible and of religious men and women, and it's this, that evil is allowed from time to time to so dull the senses of men and women and to so disturb the equilibrium of their minds that they do crazy, real crazy, mad, bad things.
	And here is the point that gives me a chill.
	I'm 76 and I noticed that in the last 20-25 years of my life, the incidents Of such disequilibrium, the incidents of that seem to be much more frequent than when I was younger.
	Yes.
	There are much more shocking things happened, and it's not that we're going to know them.
	No, no, no.
	The world was connected at that time.
	Communications were slow when I was young, say when I was 25, or when I was 20.
	But everything, all the news got around, but we never heard such a plethora of shocking unbelievably violent, unnatural
	uh... happenings to ordinary people
	so the mystery of iniquity it seems to be pressuring and the idea in
	the teaching about the mystery of iniquity is that there is a
	a darkness a mental darkness
	that closes in and makes ordinary people do the most extraordinary
	and shocking things well that's one
	part of it a horrible scary part of it but also you mentioned the environment
	I've been monitoring stories lately, Doctor, about the ozone, about deformed frogs, which are said to be an indicator species.
	I have had people on from various disciplines that you may not agree with, who call themselves remote viewers, to prophets, to Native Americans, and frankly, they all tell a very similar story With regard to what they think is immediately in front of us in the next few years.
	I happen to agree with them.
	I happen to have gone further in my thought than merely agreeing with them.
	I think there is a case of radiation.
	I think that we are being radiated in such a way that it distorts the chemical balance of our system, our mental system.
	And that, slowly but surely, a vast section of the public is being dulled.
	Doesn't see what's happening.
	Yes.
	Doesn't realize what is being done to them.
	These slowly boiling frogs.
	That's right.
	I mean, the frogs live by... There was one example of a frog reported here in all our papers in North America.
	A frog with one eye in its head and the other in its mouth.
	Yes, I know.
	The distortion, the complete ruination of nature.
	I'm afraid I can tell you more, Father, from the north central part of the United States, across to Vermont, to Montreal, even in Japan now, deformed frogs with four to six legs, as you pointed out, eyes and throats, missing eyes, and I could go on and on.
	Horrible, horrible deformities.
	Something's happening.
	Well, and then, by the way, we should also add Things we are not told in public, the deformed babies that are born in a section of Europe which is also covered by the Chernobyl explosion, but also simply happening, deformations of adults as well as children.
	And they're not reported widely.
	Doctor, a report two days ago from London of An abnormal amount of deformed fetuses in Britain.
	Britain is experiencing more ultraviolet radiation as a result of depletion of the ozone right now than are we.
	Sure, sure.
	Then, by the way, there's a thing called, we're touching a sacred cow when we touch it, and that's nuclear energy.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm firmly convinced from the evidence That and the evidence by reputable scientists.
	These are not crackpots.
	They're men who have engaged in Nobel Prize activities in chemistry and in physiology and economics.
	And they can point out the effect of radiation on the human frame, especially on those parts of the brain that deal with moral and ethical judgment.
	And it's a bit frightening because it means that the rise in criminality, the distinct rise in criminality, recidivism, constant crime and doing horrible crimes with no reason at all but simply cruelty, is some deformation of nature in itself.
	And I'm afraid it's on the increase, not on the decrease.
	Is it reasonable to ask you what When a human being is possessed by an demon, what is the purpose of the possession of an individual?
	The destruction of that individual's soul to such a point that it must end up in hell.
	Hell being a place, a location, an existence which is totally separate from God.
	The belief is that everybody was created to be happy forever.
	And God wants everybody to enjoy heaven.
	The joys of heaven, the perpetuity of heaven, the peace of heaven, and the ecstasy of heaven.
	The demons, excluded from that and barred from it because of their rebellion, want to make sure that as many human beings as possible don't attain it.
	And that is done by possession.
	And possession is a funny thing.
	It's a funny operation.
	It never starts suddenly.
	You don't wake up in the morning and say, gee whiz, I'm possessed!
	It doesn't happen like that.
	It's like any addiction.
	It's like anything that happens slowly.
	It's bit by bit.
	Bit by bit, I cede control of my will and my intellect to a demon.
	And one day, the possession is complete.
	Is this a fight, Doctor, between an individual's will and that of the demon?
	Well, usually, to be more accurate, it's a fight between the will of the exorcist and the will of the demon.
	Well, I guess I meant, before you or somebody like yourself has met up with this possessed individual, as the process of takeover is underway, is it a fight between the person's will and the demon intending to possess?
	Usually, the tendency or the attempt to possess is through deception.
	For instance, we have, in the northeast corner of America, since 1975, we've had a huge increase in the following type of possession.
	A young man, say 30-something, 40-something, a young woman, will come and say, look, when I was in college, when I was studying, when I took up residence as a doctor or a lawyer, whoever it was, I made a pact with the devil.
	I needed money.
	I needed a position.
	And I asked him to help me, and he did, but he took over my will and my mind.
	Now I want to get rid of it.
	How do I get rid of it?
	Well, we have an increase in that phenomenon, which I never thought we had.
	Some of them don't even believe in God.
	Some of them are Jewish.
	Some of them are Buddhists.
	Some of them are Christian.
	Some of them are Protestants or Catholics.
	There's no profile of the possessible person.
	Once you have issued such an invitation, is there any way to go back?
	If it has been taken up, then your only recourse is exorcism.
	But we know of, there may be other recourses, we don't know of any recourse, except that.
	Are there cases in which a possession is not obvious?
	Yes, there are.
	I would imagine there are many where the spirit has simply won and is in firm Control.
	I would think that the people who come to you are those who are sort of in the middle of a giant battle.
	That's right.
	When you find somebody, you know, the typical things of somebody throwing themselves on the ground or cursing and spitting and protesting and desiccating, urinating and all sorts of protest.
	What they're doing is protesting, saying, help me.
	Yes.
	Help me.
	But really, the perfectly possessed, we call them the perfectly possessed, are those that are completely at peace.
	And I've known several of the perfectly possessed, and I avoid them like the pest.
	And you know them only by almost accidental means.
	Sometimes, they're perfectly normal, by the way, and they've got great business property, they're married, they have children and wives, and they've put down responsible jobs.
	There's nothing wrong there.
	Now and again, just now and again, it's as it were, a veil is drawn aside, and you see somebody you don't know at all.
	You just don't know this person, this man, this woman.
	And there's a completely alien look, a completely alien attitude, and they breathe alienation.
	And you know then, if you have a nose for it, you know then that they're perfectly possessed and there's nothing to be done about it.
	The first man I knew like that was called Beat'em, John Beat'em.
	And it was a frightening experience because I had known him for years.
	In other words, they're packed, they're deal.
	They are at peace with and comfortable with their deal.
	That's right.
	They have passed through the usual Satanist rituals too.
	The three Satanist rituals, the power of inflicting pain, the power of hating, and the power of burning fire.
	Fire is part of the Satanist and the Luciferian development.
	They've passed through all those with flying colors.
	Doctor, I want to circle back for a second.
	You scared me quite well.
	You said, and this was going to be a major question for you this morning, I talked to you about the quickening.
	I didn't even get to all the facets.
	To me, it's many, many things.
	But you said there was a huge increase in the number of possessions.
	And I was going to ask you that.
	To me, that just adds to the pile.
	That is true.
	There's more now.
	It's about, since 1975, when I really started to notice exorcisms in the United States, it's about 800% increase in frequency.
	Oh my!
	In frequency.
	And it's extraordinary.
	It's extraordinary.
	And one part of the phenomenon is this art, that now, for the first time, exorcists and psychiatrists are working closely together and I work with psychiatrists.
	I do the spiritual side of it and they do the psychiatric end of it.
	There's always a psychiatric preparation and follow up after an exorcism.
	You mentioned that one psychiatrist simply gave up psychiatry.
	That's right.
	I gave him a codename of Hammond.
	That's not his real name.
	But he was very, very skeptical about it all.
	And finally I said, OK, Doctor, look, if you insist, but you must have some protection.
	He wasn't a Catholic, by the way.
	But he was a very honest, sincere man.
	I didn't mean but.
	He was.
	And once he went through it, that was it.
	He would never touch another another possessed person who never touched psychiatry ever
	again, he would often do something else. He was a qualified doctor and became an only MD. He
	can't find himself to that.
	Doctor, how frequently do you think psychiatrists who are treating patients, or what percentage
	of their patients might indeed, instead of suffering psychiatric problems, be suffering
	some form of possession?
	Well over 50% of the cases I have observed, well over 50% are really possessed by demons,
	and of course nothing can be done about it. They are diagnosed as schizophrenic, or as
	MPDs, or as whatever, and there is no succor for them.
	There is no succor or help for them at all.
	When you have done your job, and when we come back from the top of the air we'll talk about
	what an actual exorcism is like, I guess I want to know, but when you have done your
	job, and it's all over, and the demon leaves.
	Where does that demon go?
	Well, let me gently but firmly sort of put in a corrective there, Art, from the point of view of an expert.
	They, the demon, has been deprived of a place, a location, a person's person, a person, a human person, in which to exercise power.
	Therefore, they're confined to what they originally were, which is hell.
	They go back merely to suffering, because their suffering is intense and perpetual and non-stop.
	They have had a chance of exercising power outside of their tortures, and indeed, the evil they inflict is a way of their Getting their own back in some way or other, even though it doesn't relieve their pain.
	So they are punished for their failure.
	That's right.
	They're punished.
	And that's why in the Gospels, for instance, you have this, the evil spirit saying to Jesus, no, no, don't send us back to hell.
	Send us into these pigs.
	Remember the swine of Gerasene?
	Yes.
	And they rushed over the precipice into the water and drowned themselves.
	They could possess something.
	There's a sort of relief, a temporary relief.
	In not being condemned purely and simply to suffer in hell.
	And therefore they want something to inhabit.
	And Christ himself said, and St.
	Paul says, and St.
	Peter and lots of things in the New Testament say that the devil goes around seeking whom he may devour, like a lion, whom he may possess.
	And I must tell you that the increase, the enormous increase, about 800% over what it used to be, In our small area, because it's only a small area, we do with the northeast corner.
	And it is a huge increase.
	And here's one more thing to say, Art, which may sort of provoke a whole series of questions.
	Possession of the real diabolic kind is generational.
	Generational?
	Uh-huh.
	It's generational.
	Passed on?
	It's passed on by training.
	And it's a dreadful thing when somebody comes in, who are perfectly respectable, good, normal American families, and they have reared their children to be Satanists and to accept possession.
	And they would, unless they're stopped, unless they're stopped themselves, pass it on to their children.
	And it's been going on for well over 200 years.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold it right there.
	Relax.
	You've got eight or nine minutes.
	I need eight or nine minutes after this.
	And we'll be right back.
	And when we come back, we will ask you about that, and we will ask you about an actual exorcism.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest.
	I think I'm glad we're taking a break.
	We're going to do that right now.
	We'll be back with more.
	you're listening to the American CBZ Radio Network.
	Welcome to the American CBZ Radio Network.
	from 9 to 5.
	It's Art Bell and his first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	I'll tell you more about him in a moment, for those of you just joining.
	For many, many years, as a Catholic priest, he did exorcisms.
	Real ones.
	He says there has been an 800% increase in recent years in exorcisms.
	That's in the Northeast part of the country.
	He says our environmental problems, social problems, are catching up with us rapidly.
	He agrees In substance, with what many of my other guests have said.
	This is not going to be easy to digest for you this morning.
	So, kind of set yourself up for it and get ready.
	And we'll get back to it in just a moment.
	Alright, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Malachi Martin.
	For those of you who just joined, uh...
	Malachi Martin, ex-Jesuit, former exorcist, one-time advisor to three popes, presently a best-selling author, as a premier investigator of clandestine politics, unlikely alliances of popes and cardinals.
	His novels offer rare insights into the men who guide nearly a billion people in faith and broker the destinies of countries and continents.
	As a member of the Vatican Intelligence Network under Pope John XXIII, Martin helped extend the Church into Iron Curtain countries.
	In 1964, concerned about the corrupting influences of power, Martin was released from his vows of poverty and obedience after 25 years as a Jesuit.
	He left Rome for New York, where he did odd jobs until a Guggenheim fellowship enabled him to write his first bestseller.
	Hostage to the devil.
	It was followed by the final conclave.
	Vatican.
	Three Popes and the Cardinal.
	The keys of this blood, the Jesuits, and many, many more.
	Born, by the way, in Kerry, Ireland in 1921.
	He has done many, many exorcisms, and that is generally what we're talking about right now, and possession.
	I'm trying to understand possession.
	And we left off last hour Talking about the fact that it apparently is generational, Doctor, generational possession.
	Yes.
	Let me explain that.
	It's not that possession is passed on with famine, passed on with genes.
	No, no, no.
	It's that the same demon inhabits the members of the same family for generations.
	Consentingly, consensually.
	He is nourished by them and kept by them and satisfied with them.
	The children are trained in it and they perpetuate it in their children.
	It has gone on for generations.
	It's generational.
	And sometimes, unwillingly, we have cases in hand, for instance, of daughters to whom their mother attached her familiar, her evil spirit, And then we have the job of ridding them of that.
	And it takes time.
	And it's painful.
	And anguishing.
	How does a person know?
	Does a person know, I mean, in the mind or the soul of the possessed?
	Yes.
	Is there always knowledge of that possession?
	There is.
	But it can be limited knowledge.
	It can also be inhibited knowledge.
	Some of them can't even tell you about it.
	Some of them can.
	It depends on the particular type of demon.
	There are many types of demons.
	Some of them are quite intelligent, some of them are very stupid.
	Most of them are specialized in one thing and one thing only, and that's all they can do.
	And it's a reflection of some gift as angels, which they had, now distorted as demons.
	And in these matters, as in everything connected with it, go to the experts.
	Don't try and do it yourself.
	And then do not... There's a big confusion, Art, which we should clear up for everybody, and it's this.
	There are many healers and deliverance experts, and many people will undergo lengthy prayers and incensings and various ceremonies.
	But the truth is this.
	The horrible truth is this.
	That if there is a demon in your life, and he dictates your behavior at least in one province of life, one area of life, he can only be expelled by direct confrontation, by somebody with authority to expel him.
	When I say him, of course, spirits have no sex, they're not male or female, I just use him in the generic sense of the English word.
	But it's a confrontation.
	It's not a prayer.
	Gee whiz, it was a prayer to be very simple to get rid of them.
	All right, this is something I want to ask about, if I might for a moment, Doctor.
	Sure, sure.
	I had a call a couple of weeks ago from a woman who said that she had been in bed, believe this, with her children one night, and she was attacked, Doctor, attacked by some sort of demon or spirit That was actually waiting upon her, actually trying to sodomize and rape her, and she was unable to speak, unable to move, unable to utter anything, and in the middle of this attack, the phone rang, the answering machine came on, somebody's voice began speaking, and whatever it was, left.
	Now, she said, That the only way this thing would leave, and she'd been attacked many times, was if she audible-ized, audible-ized, some sort of something, and she said, I sat there and I prayed and I asked God to cast off whatever this was, and it would not go.
	And my question was, and I pondered after the call, it was a very serious, very scary call, and I pondered afterwards, if God If God hears our prayers, those cast silently forward, then why would God not hear a silent plea, a scream, as it were?
	Why must something like this be audibilized?
	There are mysteries about this entire situation to which we have no answer.
	But there are laws.
	He has set up laws governing The existence of man and woman, and one of them is that audibilizing something does make a difference.
	And it can be as simple as this, that the attention that a demon requires of the possessed person, of the person they're going to violate, that possession can be distracted Their will can be diverted, their mind can be diverted from being, as it were, hypnotized, being held by some audible voice message from another normal human being.
	And God knows what grace of God that voice brings with them.
	But that it does happen, that audibilization does have an influence, there's no doubt about it.
	There's no doubt about it.
	And there's no specific answer as to why?
	No specific answer.
	And you know, Art, the biggest problem is Who is possessible?
	And people are always asking me, am I liable to be possessed?
	And we have tried to create a profile of the possessible person, but we have found that neither sex, nor education, nor color, nor race, nor education, nor riches, nor poverty, nothing makes a difference.
	Apparently to our mind, it's random.
	A random choice.
	I know very naughty people who are not a bit possessed, but just very naughty men and women.
	And then I know people who are not naughty at all, but lapse in one thing, and they do undergo possession.
	Knowing the nature of humans, if somebody has made, in effect, a pact with the devil, is it not more likely that those cases of possession would more frequently than not be the rich, the powerful, those who have attained great material success or wealth?
	You would think so, Art, but de facto, no.
	No.
	Poor people.
	People with very little social resonance.
	People occupying very obscure positions in the social ladder.
	Everybody is susceptible to some ambition.
	Something they want.
	Either for revenge, or for self-satisfaction, or for self-advancement.
	Yes.
	And everybody is liable.
	So, the pact could be something as simple as the wanting or the wishing of a A mate, or the attention of somebody in the opposite sex, or... That's right, to get married.
	To get married.
	To get this man, to get this woman.
	Yes.
	You see, for instance, if I could do this now, I want to take the following example, but with great care.
	Do you remember Susan Smith?
	Yes.
	The Crown to Two Children?
	Of course.
	Now, for an exorcist, the pattern is very clear.
	The children were in her way.
	Yes.
	or for ambition, whatever that ambition was, it concerned a young man.
	Yes it did.
	And the exorcist could say about that, it was obvious that they were used as obstacles,
	they were used by Satan to possess her will and make her commit the grievous sin of matricide.
	Because she was convicted of that anyway, so I'm not accusing her of anything, she's not convicted.
	That's not.
	But that would be read by an exorcist as a typical example of possession of the will of somebody to commit a very evil act just for the sake of doing evil, because that's the whole point of the demon, to do evil for the sake of evil.
	Should somebody like you have consulted with Susan Smith?
	Well, if I was asked to.
	Generally, we people, we're very cheery about intervening at all.
	And there's enough work on our plate to keep it going.
	But, yes.
	Can somebody, Doctor, of any faith be possessed?
	Yes, of any faith.
	It doesn't matter.
	Of no faith at all.
	Would a Catholic priest perform an exorcism on a non-Catholic?
	Yes, he would.
	And we do.
	We do.
	Now, it's much more difficult because you can't call on their faith.
	Except faith, they generally emerge from an exorcism, a successful exorcism, with tremendous faith in God.
	Not necessarily Catholic faith, but faith in God.
	Speaking for the layman, there are many people walking around, listening right now, who are no doubt scared to death, because at one time or another in their life, they have probably, in a moment of despair, or a moment of need, said, I'd make a pact with the devil if I could just have So-and-so, and they're probably thinking at this moment there's a pretty good chance they may be possessed.
	You can't be possessed without knowing it.
	And you can't be possessed against your will.
	You may wish all day and all night for the devil to come and sign a pact with you, as it were, a Faustian principle, like Mephistopheles in the play of Goethe, but It can't happen without your knowing it and without you willing it fully, finally fully, bit by bit by bit, so that you needn't be afraid that you're possessed and you don't know it.
	No, no, no, that doesn't happen.
	Well, are there not, though, no doubt, many people who have achieved success or achieved that goal for which they made that dark wish, that moment, and they certainly must wonder?
	No, they know.
	They know.
	They know full well.
	And that's the darkest secret of their life.
	The dark, indeed.
	That sets them apart from wife, or husband, or lover, or mistress, or brother, or sister.
	And you say you have seen these people.
	You know these people when you see them.
	Oh, yes, you do.
	You get... You meet them in the street.
	You meet them in cocktail parties.
	You meet them at dinner parties.
	You meet them at meetings and conventions.
	And, of course, I must tell you that I run like... I run... I get out of their way.
	I have enough of it.
	I don't want to confront them.
	I don't want to have anything to do with them.
	Unless I have to, professionally.
	Doctor, Catholic priests... How many Catholic priests are capable of, or do, within the Church, exorcisms?
	Nowadays, unfortunately, a minimum.
	As you know, In the last 25 or 30 years, belief in the devil, belief in evil incarnate, in an evil spirit, belief in hell, belief in the demons, the existence of the activities, say, of Lucifer and of Satan.
	They're distinct demons, by the way.
	People often confuse them, but they're distinct demons.
	Belief in that has flagged, has got very weak, and the result is that when we started doing a lot of exorcisms here, In the northeast corner of America, in the 1970s, we finally had to go to Rome and ask permission.
	Because the local bishops, some of them didn't believe.
	So we went to Rome and said, look, these people, we need authority.
	Because by the way, nobody can do an exorcism without being given authority.
	And it must be a bishop gives authority.
	So we had to go and get special permission from Rome to do it.
	Because we couldn't get it here.
	Now some bishops do believe, some bishops don't believe, some priests do believe, some priests don't believe.
	Most of them want to have nothing to do with it.
	They know little, and they want to know less.
	That really, and some bishops, some cardinals, we know, say, look, don't bother me.
	You have all the authority you want, but don't tell me a thing about it.
	I don't want to have anything to do with it at all.
	Possibly the source of the hear no evil, see no evil.
	That's part of it.
	That's part of it.
	If you have to take into account that so-and-so, this political leader, this particular borough leader, This particular CEO is possessed.
	It does complicate life, Archer.
	It does complicate life.
	A big surgeon, a big psychiatrist, is by way of demonically possessed.
	It makes a huge difference.
	Can a person of faith be possessed?
	Can any person of faith be possessed?
	Can a person of great faith be possessed?
	No.
	No.
	Without their renouncing.
	The time comes when you're asked to make a change.
	You can't be possessed against your will.
	And if your will is strong in your faith, you can't be possessed.
	You can be obsessed.
	You can be bothered.
	You can be harassed.
	Yes.
	Harassed terribly.
	And the major portion of the major The portion of cases that occupy my daily dealing with this are cases of obsession and harassment.
	And terribly distressing.
	What about the demographics of possession?
	We saw the exorcist.
	Can a child be possessed?
	No.
	Except, in exceptional cases, you have children born and quickly developing at the age of four, five.
	With a will as strong as a person of 25, really.
	And they can undergo possession, but it's rare.
	It's very rare.
	They can be harassed and obsessed, and that's usually generationally, on account of the parents, on account of an aunt, on account of an uncle.
	Let's see, what's the right word?
	What word am I looking for?
	In a generational case of possession, Does the parent actively teach this child in the dark ways?
	Oh yes.
	They assign the child to their demon.
	They're satisfied with that.
	The demon becomes what they call a familiar of theirs.
	And they give it a name.
	They call it Philip.
	They call it George.
	They call it John.
	They call it James.
	They call it Mary.
	Whatever.
	And they assign the child to it.
	They teach the child to do obeisance to it.
	And they make the child participate in ceremonies.
	Satanist ceremonies.
	Wow.
	There's a lot of that going on in America today?
	A lot.
	It's very hard to say a lot.
	That it goes on continually and sustainably in certain areas, yes.
	And whether it's Boston or whether it's Montana or California or New Mexico, The place doesn't matter.
	The place doesn't matter.
	I must confess to you that there is a lot of very impressive generational cases are found or have been found, not all, but a lot of such cases have been found amongst old American families.
	The old traditional... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Originally came over on the Mayflower kind of American family?
	That sort of business, yes.
	That sort of business, yes.
	It's a murky story and has never been written out properly, mainly because, well, it concerns family genealogies, you know, and it's hard to write that up and get it published, and then what's the point?
	But you come across generational possession and harassment, but possession too, in such families, such old, old families.
	I suppose getting it in print, one reason might be the truth, Doctor.
	Alright, I meant to ask you about a natural exorcism.
	When we come back, go ahead and relax.
	We will do that then.
	Okay.
	Alright, Doctor Malachi Martin is my guest.
	A warning for you, it's probably going to get a little rough.
	We'll be right back.
	Welcome to the show.
	Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM is an Encore presentation from Nike.
	It's Art Bell's very first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest.
	And we are about to ask him to describe the actual process of exorcism.
	He has done many, so I suspect he's capable of doing that.
	It's coming up shortly.
	back now to dr. Malachi Martin and doctor you're in I haven't even told
	everybody you're in Manhattan aren't you That's right, I live in Manhattan.
	Upper Manhattan.
	Doctor, as a young priest, how did you first, what was your first exorcism, and what was your reaction to it?
	Well, my first exorcism was in Cairo, Egypt.
	And I was a young priest, and I was an archaeologist.
	I was lying on my belly, on my back, in caves.
	on the Sinai Peninsula, copying inscriptions.
	Inscriptions dating from about the time of Abraham, about 1600 or 1700 BC.
	That's about what, 3000 years ago, more than 3000 years ago.
	Long time ago, yes.
	And an exorcism was going on, and I didn't know it when I came back down by plane
	and checked into Cairo, because I came down every couple of weeks
	to get a bath and to eat properly.
	Yes.
	Because we lived on goat's cheese and black coffee when we were up digging.
	One of the priests was telling me that he was engaged in exorcism and his assistant has collapsed, which is not uncommon with young assistants because In your first exorcism, if you've never done it before, the impact is so great, sometimes you become totally incontinent.
	It scares you, scares you to the point where you can't move and can't speak and can't help.
	And everything, all the portals are loosened.
	You have diarrhea, you vomit, because it's so repellent.
	It's so shocking.
	So it's not for the weak of heart.
	No, no, no, it's not.
	And I'll describe in a moment exactly what is the repellent part of it.
	All right.
	But so I was asked to assist, so I did.
	And apparently I had a very strong constitution.
	Still have.
	And I haven't got that effect.
	It had a disgusting effect.
	It always has.
	That was the first time.
	It was a very sticky exorcism.
	In general, if you want to understand what an exorcism is like, And what's really the essence, the difficulty, the horror of it is this.
	You must imagine, say, a common scene.
	It's a room.
	It's always within a room, within a house.
	It's in a room.
	There's nothing on the walls.
	No nails, no pictures, nothing that can move.
	If the windows are barred, it shatters.
	You don't have glass around the place that can be shattered.
	All of this is prepared?
	All of this is prepared.
	And you have the person in question is either violent or not.
	Most times not violent to begin with.
	And there's either a bed, an iron bed, or a chair, or whatever.
	You have no table, but people.
	You have an exorcist with an assistant, and he has an assistant.
	The assistant is a priest, and then he has several other people.
	Usually men.
	They're dressed in clothes that can take a lot of hardware, and they carry everything in their hands.
	They have to have a candle, and they have to have holy water, and they have to have the priest's prayer book, etc.
	Now, here's the point.
	I said before that people undergo a psychiatric examination, undergo a medical examination, and finally people say, OK, let's try exorcism.
	And I said that within the first 20 minutes, you know it's a real case of possession, and then you're into it, and you can't withdraw.
	You can't say, OK boys, let's break up and see each other next Monday.
	You can't do that.
	Once you've started, you've got to finish it.
	Or else what?
	Why?
	Or else you are pursued by that demon.
	You are pursued?
	The exorcist?
	That's right.
	And everybody in that room has troubles.
	And the troubles can be extraordinary.
	I mean, I've seen assistants trying to hold somebody down and dropping the person and looking at each other because the person, the possessed person, will start telling one man what the other man did to his wife.
	Oh, boy.
	Yes.
	We've been through that, too.
	And sometimes it's a lie.
	Sometimes it's true.
	Sometimes it's an exaggeration.
	Anyway, but after the first 20 minutes, what happens?
	In that 20 minutes, the following happens.
	Now, the temperature of the room may change.
	There may be a horrible smell.
	There may not be a horrible smell.
	All those are incidental things.
	The olfactory experience, or the heat and cold experience.
	But, here's the real point.
	At a certain moment, if it's really an exorcism, and if we are in the presence of a possessing spirit, or a threatening spirit, demon, Everybody in the room, the priest and his assistant and the assistants, they know, and I can only call on some experiences of people listening to me, and you yourself, Martin, you know there's something in the room that wants you dead, but dead, dead, dead.
	I mean, I've only been twice in my life threatened with real death, but really threatened.
	Once was in Czechoslovakia, and once was in America.
	And it's a horrible feeling knowing that unless something happens, you are going to die.
	Now!
	Yes.
	And that's the... it's like an invisible animal with claws and it wants you dead.
	It really wants your life's blood.
	It wants you extinguished.
	Has it happened, Doctor?
	Has an assistant or an exorcist or anybody present at an exorcism ever been killed?
	Well, no, but they have died of heart attack.
	They've died of some form of internal health attack.
	None of them have been killed, except in one case.
	I wasn't present at it.
	There was a case in America where the person was flung out a window and defenestrated and killed eight stories down.
	Well, out a window or a heart attack, it's dead.
	It was dead.
	But the point is that the experience is everybody in the room suddenly knows.
	You don't even look at each other, you know.
	Especially if you've done exorcism before with the same team.
	You know, this is it.
	We're now in that presence.
	And the point is this.
	Here's the point I want to drive home.
	It's a confrontation.
	Not a series of prayers, of pious wishes, and of deliverance and healing invocations.
	No, no, no.
	This is a confrontation between the exorcist's will and the possessing demon, or the harassing demon.
	And thereby, then, There comes the conversation.
	Because the exorcist has to find out the name, what the demon calls himself.
	We want to speak about himself.
	It's not himself or herself, as we all know.
	But anyway, what their name is.
	And the name is usually a reflection of their function.
	What their function is as an evil spirit.
	And you have to get them to admit that.
	There are certain rules.
	You never answer a question put to you by the possessed person.
	You're always flinging a question back at them.
	How do you know when you are speaking with that demon?
	It is impossible not to know it once the person starts talking.
	It is impossible not to know.
	You know.
	Everybody in the room knows.
	And it's not a change of voice.
	Sometimes the voice is a big change of the voice.
	Sometimes it's a small change.
	But there's something The manifestation of the spirit, when it's cornered by an authorized exorcist, is palpably clear, like the nose in your face.
	Everybody knows.
	And there's no deception about it, and it has this bone-chilling effect.
	So it's like a war.
	It's a war.
	Once it begins.
	It's a real confrontation.
	And this is where people make a mistake about treating with evil spirits.
	If they think or suspect or know that they're being bothered, They attempt to take it on themselves, and you can't do it.
	You have no authority.
	Well, I was going to say, this is one of those don't try it at home things.
	In other words, you don't sit by a bed and attempt yourself, not knowing what you're doing, to say a nice little prayer that this spirit will leave the body?
	You can do that if you want to, and it's okay to do it, and it does relieve the pressure and the tension, but it does not.
	It does not dispossess a possessing spirit.
	It does not.
	For that, you need authority.
	And this is the difficulty that Buddhists and Jews and non-Catholics sometimes come to us and say, we've been trying exorcism and it doesn't work.
	And one would laugh if it weren't so pathetic at times.
	Because it's only the authority of Christ can get rid of the spirit.
	And that's what takes place.
	And that can be long or short.
	It can be a long game of cat and mouse trying to trap the demon.
	Trying to get it to conceal.
	And then it collapses into complete silence.
	Or violence.
	Doctor, we hear of successes at the end.
	The story usually ends well.
	Are there failures?
	Are there times when... There are failures, but a total failure.
	And that is calamitous.
	Because then that means the person goes ahead possessed.
	It means that the exorcist has Has sacrifice something for nothing?
	Because let me explain something to you, Art, which is very hard to explain, but there are parallel analogies in life that helps.
	When you do exorcism, you give something which you can't get back.
	It's like, for instance, any parent who has reared children will tell you, Oh, I gave them so much love.
	Yes.
	They're not talking about money or food.
	They're thinking about what they gave of themselves.
	You give of yourself in love and affection and devotion and planning, etc., etc.
	And you can't get it back.
	No parent wants it back, really.
	Similarly with an exorcism, the exorcist gives.
	A little part of him dies, put it like that, and goes away and waits for him in heaven.
	A little slice of death.
	Yes, a little slice.
	For instance, after a bad exorcism, I mean a long, unhealthy one, You don't eat very much for a couple of weeks, and you don't sleep very deeply either.
	You can't.
	You can't.
	You've been locked in combat with a very, very insalubrious, unhealthy, anti-human, hating spirit that has communicated with you.
	For those not of faith, Are there, during the course of exorcisms, actual physical manifestations in or near the person, or around the person, or in the room, as in the movie?
	Do things ever move?
	Oh yes, things move.
	If there's anything movable in the room, it's going to move.
	If there are nails on the wall, if there are pictures, if there are windows that can be broken, they'll probably be broken.
	If there's something which is weak, It's unbreakable.
	It can break.
	It can move.
	And so you want to have a very bare situation completely.
	And even then, the exorcist is not free once it's all over.
	I've been flung out of bed.
	I've been knocked off stools and broken my shoulder by the demon to get his own back just to remind me he was there.
	And to make me pay a price for the damage I did.
	This is like going to war.
	It's very much like going to war.
	What most people don't realize is that there's a spiritual war on.
	And as St.
	Paul says, it's a war with the spirits.
	It's a war with the forces of evil, the invisible forces that want men's souls.
	Are there times as a priest where even the very best of men, doctors, sometimes Fear war, reasonably.
	Does a priest sometimes fear entering this war when you know you're about to meet up once again with the worst?
	Yes, yes.
	There's always that fear.
	A very old exorcist gave me advice years ago in Ireland.
	I mentioned this to him.
	And he said, OK, but listen.
	Learn to measure your love of God by the amount of fear in your heart.
	Which is a very profound statement.
	It is, yes.
	Because it depends on how much you love God.
	And if you really love Him as Father, as Savior, and as final end of everything, and as the beautifier, and as the creator of nature, the creator of all beauty in our lives, it can expel fear.
	But if you nourish fear, that fear can grow and Not quantitatively, but it can equal or surpass the amount of love you have in your heart.
	Then you're in danger.
	Because that fear is going to make you despair.
	That fear is going to make you timorous.
	That fear is going to make you vulnerable.
	And love is the only thing that can cure it.
	Love is the only protection we have.
	You mentioned there were priests who do not believe that people are possessed.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Do they carry that belief because of fear, do you think, for the most part?
	No.
	The cases I have known are priests whose faith has been diminished.
	See, faith is not a quantum, like a bank balance, or something in your pocket, or clothes you wear.
	It's a dimension of soul.
	And that dimension can be greater or lesser.
	And it can be diminished by infidelities, By sin, by fecklessness, by carelessness.
	It can be increased by virtue.
	It can be increased by good actions.
	It can be increased by the grace of God.
	But it's usually because of a lack of faith.
	Faith.
	When they think that there's no such thing as evil, really.
	That it's okay, do what you like, just don't frighten the horses.
	But there are iron laws, though.
	God has laws.
	And he doesn't allow them to be violated.
	You can violate them, but you're going to pay the price.
	And one of the prices is that you slowly but surely edge towards that region of human existence where the demons are dominant.
	And they will satisfy you.
	They'll give you a good life.
	But you end up their prisoner.
	Their prisoner.
	Is there ever a case where the person who is possessed dies in the course of the exorcism?
	Yes.
	It has happened.
	And it's called untold trouble because there's usually a lawsuit.
	But that's why we are very careful as regards the medical condition of the persons that we exorcise.
	You say there's a lawsuit?
	The husband or the wife or the boy, the friend or the son or the daughter sued the priest.
	Sued the priest?
	Yeah.
	For having put their relatives through an experience that caused them to have a heart attack.
	Caused them to have a coronary.
	Whatever.
	It has happened.
	What would happen?
	Doctor, to the soul of the person who would die under such circumstances?
	Under those circumstances, we must say, we don't know.
	There's always the chance.
	You know the old story between the bridge and the water?
	This man was pursued by his enemies of living in sin, and he tried to jump over a bridge and swim into the water, but they shot him.
	Yes.
	But before his body hit the water, he had repented.
	There's always this, you never know.
	You just never know.
	I just wouldn't like to be in that position.
	Myself.
	Has that happened to you?
	Yes, it has happened to me.
	It has happened to me.
	And it's very distressing.
	And then I've been asked to go see people who are possessed by their husband or their wife or their brother or sister and come away empty-handed.
	They simply told me to go to hell.
	Literally.
	Literally?
	Well, that would be one pretty good sign, wouldn't it?
	I mean, it's just not something you do to tell a priest to go to hell.
	It's very discouraging.
	It's very discouraging, and they do it with great hate.
	Great hate.
	Well, as I say, wouldn't that be a very clear sign?
	It is.
	It is, Art.
	It is.
	And so if you are told to go to hell, to get out of here, I don't want anything to do with you, which I can imagine, more than not, you might be told, then what do you do?
	Well, you go away and you pray.
	But, you see, for instance, if I go into the greengrocer, and I find the milk is surprisingly rotten, and I say, listen, this milk smells highly, he says, listen, buddy, get the hell out of here.
	That's one way of... That merely means, stop bothering me!
	But if somebody tells you, in the way that it does happen now and again to an exorcist, please, go to hell.
	Because that's where I'm going.
	I want to be with the prince.
	Now I'm quoting a certain case to you.
	Then it chills your bones.
	Because you know you're up against somebody perfectly possessed who just was waiting to die and go home to his master.
	Have you ever wondered, Doctor, about your own heart?
	About your own constitution going into one of these?
	Yes, I have.
	Yes, I have.
	And my heart specialist has always warned me that there's a danger there.
	And I know there is.
	But you see, when you're over 70, you know the amount of good you can do in this world is limited because you're no longer 20, 25, 30.
	And therefore whatever good you can do, you do if you're wise.
	Because one day soon I'm going to take the high jump.
	As we all shall.
	As we all shall.
	So, even today, if you encountered it, you would still do it?
	Oh yes, I would.
	Oh yes, I would.
	Because the commiseration, the human compassion, and the pity that the Holy Spirit puts in your heart impels you, because they are miserable, and they make appeals to you, unless they're completely possessed.
	Doctor, hold tight, relax, and I can use a moment of relaxation as well, and we'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	This is CBZ.
	This is a test.
	�� Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM is an
	encore presentation from It's Art Bell's very first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin, and he'll be back in a moment.
	He's in New York City, and wherever you are, you're going to want to sit down by your radio
	and pay very close attention.
	Well, all right.
	There are stations that are just joining us now.
	You have missed two very important hours, and it's going to be impossible to catch you up, but we'll try.
	Malachi Martin, my guest, is an ex-Jesuit, former exorcist for many, many years, and one-time advisor to three popes.
	He is now a best-selling author as a premier investigator of the clandestine politics and unlikely alliances of popes and cardinals.
	Dr. Martin offers rare insights in his books into the men who guide nearly a billion people in faith and broker the destinies of countries and continents.
	As a member of the Vatican Intelligence Network under Pope John XXIII, Martin helped extend the Church into Iron Curtain countries.
	In 1964, concerned about the corrupting influences of power, Martin was released from his vows of poverty and obedience after 25 years as a Jesuit.
	He left Rome for New York, where he did odd jobs until a Guggenheim fellowship enabled him to write his first bestseller, Hostage to the Devil, followed by the final conclave, Vatican, three popes, and the cardinal, the keys of this blood, the Jesuits, and others.
	He has been reviewed by many, many, many, many.
	Forbes said, no spiritual journey is complete without a Vatican page-turner by Malachi Martin.
	Sacramento Bee said, it is to Martin's credit, that his real-life fictional cardinals have flesh, bone, and blood.
	Sometimes the heart of a South Chicago ward healer.
	The Dallas Morning News said in biblical times they would have called him a prophet.
	He just described in great detail what exorcisms are like.
	Doctor, are you there?
	Yes.
	You've held up through great exorcisms.
	How are you holding up this morning?
	Very well, very well indeed.
	This has been an exhilarating experience, Art.
	All right, I have a lady who would like to speak to you.
	She sent me a fax, Doctor, and I called her.
	She sent me the following.
	Art, please help me.
	If I'm not possessed, then I'm being harassed, tormented, used, abused, sodomized, all of it.
	I believe my mother promised me to her evil spirit.
	My family is an old American family.
	I converted to Judaism 30 years ago, and she sounded so much like somebody you described that I thought I would bring her on the air for a moment.
	Her name is Eva.
	Eva, are you there?
	Yes.
	My name is Eva.
	Eva?
	All right, Eva.
	I'm sorry, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	How do you do, Dr. Martin?
	Good morning, Eva.
	Can you hear me?
	Yes, very well.
	Thank you.
	If you are in that condition, if you think you fulfill all those conditions in your life, you should apply to the local bishop, the bishop of the diocese in which you live.
	I don't know what that diocese is.
	I don't need to know.
	San Francisco Diocese.
	San Francisco, yeah.
	Well, there may be a difficulty there because a lot of the clergy In San Francisco, I've given up any belief in the existence of evil, above all in the existence of evil spirits, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Archbishop of San Francisco is among those.
	Yes.
	I do not know ever.
	I don't work.
	I love San Francisco.
	I've been there several times in my life.
	I'd love to live there.
	Don't bother.
	I don't choose to be here.
	I know.
	I know.
	Well, that's what happens with most of us.
	A place of living is imposed on us.
	But in any case, you have to apply to the local bishop for an exorcist.
	Now, you say that a person who is truly possessed is aware of it and has made a deal.
	Well, put it like this, yes.
	With conditions and restrictions, that's true of anybody who's possessed.
	Partially possessed.
	Is it a straightforward deal?
	Is it a straight forward deal?
	No, no, it's never straight forward.
	Never straight forward.
	No, it's never straight forward.
	You're always at the heel of the hunt in the matter.
	But you think it's straight forward but it isn't.
	Oh no, no, no.
	What I mean is what I'm trying to figure out.
	In a way speaking with you is a dream come true and it's also a bit of a nightmare.
	Thank you very much for saying that.
	I know, Eva.
	I promise you that when I say Mass this morning, which I shall after this broadcast, I'll give you a first intention in that Mass.
	There was a time when I would have just laughed at that, but I have tremendous respect for it now.
	You've acquired wisdom.
	My concern is for my grown married children and my grandchildren.
	I'm afraid to people that I've become attached to or involved with, and that does include my family, bad things
	happen.
	And I'm really afraid to be around people.
	I mean, I'm thinking of a few deaths in particular.
	I know.
	Stuff happens.
	I know exactly what you're talking about.
	I know exactly what you're talking about and my heart goes out to you.
	It really does.
	What can she do, Doctor?
	She must find a good priest.
	Doctor, I would like to ask you a question.
	Sure.
	One other time I was listening to a talk radio program and a woman was on who all you had to do was call up and say your name and your age or something and she would sense the stuff about you and I called Yes.
	And I gave my name and my age and so on.
	And she said, you know, she said, there's a very strong presence of a man who's been with you for about 10 years and you really need to do something about that.
	And was it accurate?
	Yeah.
	It was accurate?
	Yes.
	And I didn't follow it up.
	It's really taken me close to a year to be comfortable with actually saying that.
	I know.
	Eva, I would be cheery if I were you.
	of any freelancer in this whole matter.
	It's terribly serious.
	You see, there's no doubt about it.
	A demon can have information about one without any reference to God at all.
	Without any reference to our safety.
	I've already learned that.
	Yeah, they can know things.
	You need to be under the protection of God And you need the authority of Christ to get rid of any harassing or obsessing angel in your life, because you don't sound as if you're possessed, but you do sound harassed.
	Yes, sir.
	And obsessed.
	Yes, sir.
	And that's the commonest form of demonic activity to do.
	Now, explain this to me.
	I, at one time, was even fairly unfriendly about the Catholic Church, but there's been so much movement now that you'd have to decide to There are so many factions.
	Yes, of course.
	Which is good, to my point of view.
	You say, give myself up to the authority of Christ.
	Yes.
	Through an exorcist.
	That doesn't mean to accept Christ as a savior.
	It just means to acknowledge the authority that Christ would have in this matter.
	That's right.
	Eva, but I must be frank with you.
	Once you admit Christ as having authority in this matter, and once you benefit by that authority, you'll find that He lives in your heart.
	Well, He was a Jew.
	Emma, we are out of time and we must go, but I think the upshot here is seek the advice of the church of an exorcist.
	What I'm saying is that I don't eschew the issue.
	I just don't want to leave it on that note.
	As much as I accept about Christ the man and what a wonderful and important man he was.
	Well, yes, you want to put it like that.
	But let's leave it at that.
	But I'll be praying for you.
	That's a promise.
	All right.
	Doctor, I just got the following, and maybe you can tell me the kind of person that this came from.
	Dear Art, your present conversation with the priest is not Without dangerous complications and consequences.
	I don't have to tell you just how many minds are listening to you on the radio.
	Minds that can be in turmoil, minds unknowledgeable of the subject and the danger.
	I beg you to end this conversation without delay.
	This is somebody who is afraid of what they're hearing.
	Yes, I can imagine that it would, to certain minds, represent a danger.
	But, uh, I...
	It can suggest things to people, and I'm sorry if it does.
	There's no suggestiveness in what you're saying or what I'm saying, but the outlining of a reality in our lives, the presence of evil, is surely something that we must admit and acknowledge, and not be blind.
	So I appreciate their fears, But I think they're ill-founded.
	Doctor, during the course of an exorcism, what things or messages do you typically hear from a demon?
	In that process, in that war, in that confrontation, what do you hear?
	You hear, if you lay yourself open to it, you hear reproaches about your life.
	Your past life and your present life, it's the same thing to be reproached.
	He'll throw it at you like mud.
	Then you also hear, if you allow it to continue, an exorcist must control everything, you hear a lot about what it could be like if we weren't bothered about details like religion.
	You hear a lot of deceptive suggestions of peacefulness and let everybody think and do what they want to do.
	The message.
	Then, in the extreme cases, you get total blasphemy.
	They go after you.
	They try to challenge your faith.
	Of course.
	And it's very subtle.
	And you mustn't be shook by that.
	You mustn't be shaken by that.
	You must be able to deal with it.
	And never answer a question.
	Never take up something shoved at you.
	Always be in control.
	A priest is also a man with faults, with guilts, with all the things, perhaps fewer than the rest of us, but things that can be thrown into his face to make him weak.
	That's right, they can.
	They can shame him.
	And they can weaken him.
	And for that reason he needs to be virtuous.
	He needs not to have sin on his soul.
	He needs to have cleansed his soul in confession.
	He needs to be cleaned.
	If he's not clean, the demon will know it.
	Is it possible, as in that movie, The Exorcist, that the demon can move from the possessed to the exorcist?
	Yes.
	Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
	That's the danger.
	You can't have any truck with this, unless you're in control.
	Do you remember doing exorcisms in which you weakened?
	Yes, I do, when I was momentarily shaken, yes, by the shocking things said to me about God, about the angels, about heaven, about human beings, about human love above all, and the contempt, the contempt and the despisement and the ridicule that human love is accorded by the demon, when he really talks.
	It's something frightening.
	It's something frightening.
	And you realize then that all human love is useless unless it mirrors the love of God.
	So human love by itself is insufficient?
	It's insufficient.
	It can be ridiculed and mocked and imitated and reproduced falsely.
	When it is an echo of divine love, then it's divine.
	Speaking of false things, Doctor, is it possible or probable that a person taking drugs is more susceptible to the possibility of possession?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	In fact, there's a twist to that I'd like to give to it.
	You can, through exorcism, be rid of a drug habit.
	Because many, in many cases, not all, I'm sure, but in many cases, the lapse into a drug habit The adoption of a drug habit is the result of satanic influence.
	Demonic activity.
	You can get rid of it.
	If you were to give out sort of a general piece of advice to people who are wondering about possession, what signs do you look for?
	This.
	If in your life There is some imperative coming out of left field, not of your choice, but commanding you, urging you to do something, to yield, to be controlled, and know that that can herald demonic activity.
	For instance, let me explain something to you.
	We heard a lot for a long time.
	We still hear a lot about Transcendental Meditation.
	And the essence of it was that you make your mind blank.
	Yes.
	You know?
	Yes.
	And you channeled... The difficulty, Art, is this.
	If you do that, you are a sitting duck.
	You open the door and say, come in!
	And the same thing with the Ouija Board.
	And the same thing with many channeling activities.
	It is not necessarily the board itself.
	That's just cardboard.
	But when you use it in that manner, you're issuing an invitation.
	That's right.
	And you're saying, the door is open.
	Please come in, whoever you are.
	You can't do that with impunity.
	You can't do that with impunity.
	And many a case we're dealing with today started with a simple thing as the Ouija board used as a plaything.
	But it got serious.
	Then there are spiritual seances of the same kind, channeling.
	Waiting for the spirits to talk.
	Oh, they talk!
	Doctor, we talked about earlier the quickening.
	You talked about an increase in possession or exorcisms of 800%!
	800%!
	In what span of time have we seen this increase?
	Since about 1969 to 1989.
	in what in what span of time have we seen this increase since about nineteen sixty nine
	to nineteen eighty-nine
	in that time it's a funny thing
	A lot of things have happened at that time in the world and in the Church of Rome, my church, about which I've just written that book, Windswept House.
	And it's all, a lot of it is negative.
	A lot of negativity.
	And there's been a lot of bloodshed in that time, by the way.
	And there's been a lot of environmental damage.
	And surely Lucifer Who wants the death of the human race, will use any means, especially radiation, to destroy human hopes and human life.
	When we come back after the bottom of this hour, I would like to ask you whether we are approaching the final days.
	I want to ask you about the rapture.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	So stay right there, Dr. Malachi.
	Martin is my guest.
	And we will take calls as we're able to here, so bear with us, but we'll get more and more toward the telephone.
	A fascinating night, without question.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest from Manhattan, where it's getting pretty late in the morning.
	I'm Art Bell, and you're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
	Thank you.
	It's Art Bell and his first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest.
	Back now to Dr. Malachi Martin in Manhattan, D.C.
	Doctor, in your second set of tapes concerning the storm and inside the Vatican, you had pointed out that we are going to be chastised.
	This is from a gentleman in Beaumont, Texas.
	We're going to be chastised.
	You said it can't be mitigated.
	There will be catastrophes, calamities, natural disasters, great sections of humanity will be leveled.
	This is part of the third secret of Fatima in 1917, July 13th.
	But you implied this would be more in the distant future than in the deserted vineyard.
	You said very clearly this will occur, you believe, in the next three or four years.
	Yes, the time seems to be foreshortened in regards to what they call the chastisements, these punishments that are going to come upon us, and indeed are starting in a remote fashion, but I expect them.
	I expect them.
	One can always be wrong, in spite of my reputation, I'm not a prophet art, but I expect them between now and 2000.
	But not definitive.
	Not the end of the world.
	Not the coming of Antichrist.
	Not the final judgment.
	Not the rapture.
	A great change.
	A great change, however.
	A very great change.
	And you know the old song, Keep Your Eyes on the Skies?
	I would keep my eyes on the skies from the beginning of this winter until the end of spring 97.
	Because depending on what happens in that time, We will more or less have a prognosis for what's going to happen between now and 2000.
	How many human beings do you think will make it through this change?
	A good majority of the present human beings that are alive, but in great misery.
	In a world where perhaps you don't want to live, that sort of thing?
	That's right.
	That's right.
	All right.
	There are many, many people who want to speak with you, Doctor.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, please?
	Yes, this is a doctor.
	I'm a former seminarian.
	I would rather not give my name.
	That's quite all right.
	That's quite all right.
	A wonderful program artist and Father Malachi.
	I think one of my spiritual directors was a friend of yours.
	Namely?
	Father Menard.
	Oh yes.
	Ernest J. Menard?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	And I was a seminarian with the pre-month detentions in L.A.
	for a while.
	But I wanted to talk, first of all, would you tell Art something about the three days of darkness when I'm done?
	Yes, I will, briefly.
	And I wanted to just mention, I wanted to talk about how I was a youth minister after getting out of the seminary.
	And we were asked by the bishop to go to Ogden.
	We were told why the bishop wanted us to be in Ogden, and we did a retreat for 110 Hispanics, and dozens fell on the ground frosting, and I realized that I was not prepared for that, and so I fasted for about three days while we were doing that retreat, and no ills happened.
	But later on in Oregon, I met somebody who was heavily involved in New Age and occult, Yeah.
	And I got an inner word that said, get out of the room fast.
	And I was trapped between, it was a real small room and crowded, and couldn't get out without making a scene.
	So I waited a couple minutes, and that night I had my first out-of-body experience.
	I was basically grabbed by a demon.
	And I've had occasional out-of-body experiences since then, and basically they are stopped by the name of Jesus.
	That's right.
	It's the only means at that stage.
	Get free of it all as soon as possible.
	Yeah, those people are involved in out-of-body experiences.
	Dangerous?
	Doctor, thank you for the call.
	Very dangerous.
	Very dangerous.
	Any truck with that and you're into, what they call, you're onto the middle plateau.
	And that's a very dangerous situation.
	Doctor, three days of darkness?
	Yes, there's no doubt about it.
	There's going to be three days when there's a great darkness over our Earth and during which it will be dangerous to be abroad, to be outside your home.
	And even in your home it may be dangerous.
	Three days without sun?
	Three days without the lateral light we're used to, Art, yes.
	Without that.
	But it's like everything else, when it takes place, they will endeavor to give it an astronomical and a geophysical explanation.
	You know, so much of what you're saying this morning, my audience knows, you might not, because you're in Manhattan, where I presume that you've not been able to hear me.
	Yes, I've heard everything you've said tonight.
	Well, tonight, yes.
	But, Doctor, in just the past week, I don't know why, I asked the audience, If one day you arose and the sun did not come up, what would you conclude?
	I just asked him that general question.
	What was the answer?
	The answer was, many answers were flippant, but many answers were they would conclude that the end has begun or that a change is definitely upon us.
	It was just, it's eerie to me that I even asked that question.
	I know, I know.
	All right.
	Ease to the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	From Fort Myers, Florida.
	How are you doing, doctor?
	How are you doing?
	What's on your mind?
	Okay.
	It's something that's been worrying me.
	How a lot of leaders, religious leaders, like the Pope and Mother Teresa, and even, you know, political, like Horace Yeltsin, You know, very ill.
	Yeah.
	And I was wondering, is that like a big sign that it's coming now?
	Or soon?
	Yes, it is.
	These main leaders or apostles or leaders in the world are ailing.
	It means, for me, it's an indication of the end, the end of an era, the beginning of a new era.
	Well, he's right about that.
	Mother Teresa, of course, is ailing.
	The Pope?
	Yes, the Pope is ailing very much, very much.
	In fact, within 12 months we may have a new Pope, for all we know.
	And Boris Yeltsin is ailing, but he's not the only one.
	There's something happening, and you know, in human history, if you look at us really cohesively, you'll find that no era ends with a plonk like that, and the next one starts.
	They always dovetail.
	And our past era is now dovetailing with a new era.
	Which is a bit frightening, quite frankly.
	Many things are beginning to happen.
	Volcanoes erupting, the ozone thinning.
	That's right.
	Animals beginning to mutate.
	It seems like all of this is increasing in its occurrence.
	Right, it is.
	And you know, Jesus said, by his own generation, he said, this generation, he said, can tell me in the evening what tomorrow is going to be like.
	It reads the signs of the weather.
	But it cannot read the signs of the times, and we are like that.
	We don't read the signs of the times very well.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Thank you for having me on your show, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you?
	I am in the Bay Area, California.
	All right.
	Yes, sir.
	I have two questions for Father Martin.
	Yes.
	Art, I'm an attorney, and I've also been a Christian for right around 17 years.
	Yes.
	I've been studying demonology almost as long, and I have two questions for the Father, and a couple of comments if I could.
	First is, let me preface this and say, you've mentioned a couple of times that when you do exorcisms, there's a conflict of the wills in driving the spirit out.
	Primarily the wills.
	Yes.
	So what is the basis of your authority to cast out a demon?
	Okay, you've been a little bit weak in referencing that, and I would go beyond that.
	No, I didn't mean to be weak at all.
	I didn't mean to be weak at all.
	It's Jesus Christ.
	Okay, that's good.
	The second question is, I am, denominationally speaking, more of the Protestant tradition, and I would ask you, can a non-Catholic, without the Pope's authorization, do exorcism?
	I've never come across one yet.
	It may be, but I've never come across it yet.
	They come to us, even though they remain Protestants, they remain Methodists, Lutherans, Mormons, or Jews, or Muslims, or Buddhists, but they come to us for exorcism.
	Proffer that you're speaking to somebody who's done a number of exorcisms just good through my life. I'm not a
	Catholic I don't have the Pope's authorization, but the two
	scriptures are for you the benefit of your audience to support that have they succeeded
	That okay if I do that art the question was have they succeeded oh, yes, yes, I
	ministered to a young lady Last June she had multiple nightmares every night
	I mean, not just bad dreams, real nightmares.
	We went through about two to three weeks of deliverance sessions and drove out twenty-some demons, many of them manifesting and speaking and telling us where they're from.
	Doctor, is there a danger to what he is doing?
	Listen, in my book there is, but if he's protected, he's protected.
	You may have some protection, sir, of which I do not know.
	It must ultimately come from Christ Jesus, in my book.
	That's what I affirm.
	But if you have that protection, fine and dandy.
	God bless you, I'll pray for you.
	Thank you, Father.
	I hope you go right ahead.
	Because you can't expel these demons except in His name.
	That's affirming to hear you say that.
	I would like to just read two scriptures, Art, that are... one of them is one of my favorite verses in this area, another one that just... I would prefer you don't do that.
	I thank you for the call, sir, but it is possible then, Doctor, that somebody, a layperson, could successfully do an exorcism?
	That's right.
	He must therefore have been granted the authority of Christ Jesus.
	He must have been.
	And that's not impossible.
	It's not necessarily...
	Absolutely, metaphysically necessary to come through a church man, through an ecclesiastic.
	Normally, in my life, it always has.
	But if somebody else can do it directly with a gift from the Lord, phew!
	More power to him.
	Doctor, there was a recent movie, I don't know if you're a moviegoer, it was called, I think in its final version, Prophecy.
	Its working title during production was God's Army.
	It was with Christopher Walken.
	Are you aware at all of that movie?
	No, I heard about it, but I didn't see it.
	I don't go to movies very much.
	It basically imagined a second great war between heaven and hell.
	Ah.
	Is such a thing possible, some second great war between heaven and hell?
	Yes.
	Yes, there is going to be one final clash.
	One final clash.
	And we're on our way to it, but we're not there yet.
	We're on our way to it.
	How close to it do you think we are?
	Of course, you and I know, as sensible men, it's very hazardous to guess at timings.
	The one thing that's difficult are dates and times and hours and places.
	But, but, given what is happening, To the nations.
	Given the existence now of the New World Order as a fact of life, and not a theory, and not a plan for the future, and given the rising sea of very disturbing things happening, men and women, negative things, we are approaching a point when something has to give.
	And it would seem to be on a global level, and would seem to finally involve spirit, morals, ethics.
	Finally, the final battle.
	So, what time will I think that we're going to enter in these remaining years of this century?
	We're entering a period of severe chastisement, severe hardships, throughout the cosmos, throughout our Earth.
	And I think that into the new century, the 21st century, we're heading for a lot of confrontations and ending up in a short time with that final battle.
	Doctor, with changes, earth changes, with things that will occur, it seems so unfair because when these changes begin, clearly those in third world nations, underdeveloped nations, We'll suffer and die at a disproportionate rate.
	I do not know that, Art, for sure.
	I think that where things will be really bad will be in our overcrowded western cities.
	Our big cities.
	Say, Mexico City, with 30 million.
	Or Atlanta.
	Or Los Angeles.
	Or New York.
	Or Chicago.
	The big urban settlements.
	I think there's where the real suffering will take place.
	Now, I think that the people living in Patagonia, the people living in Tasmania, the natives as we call them, we're natives too, but we always refer to the others as the natives.
	Yes, yes.
	With our post-colonial mind, we still say that to us, you know.
	And I remember always making my British friends uncomfortable by referring to them as native British, but there was no such thing as a native British.
	Only the natives were only in Africa, for the British, at that time anyway.
	But the suffering may be more intense in what we call civilization.
	Maybe much more intense, because we are more dependent.
	I mean, look, think what would happen to New York if the water supply was cut off and the electricity and the gas.
	Oh yes.
	Oh, that's obvious.
	Very clear.
	What has been your toughest, your hardest exorcism?
	Uh, as you look back.
	It was in the Bronx.
	New York.
	In 1983.
	And it was a young priest.
	A young priest?
	Yeah.
	Who was possessed.
	And it was long drawn out.
	It was bloody.
	And disgusting.
	And took a heavy toll on everybody involved.
	Can you tell us the manner of the possession?
	How would a priest be possessed?
	Was he himself doing an exorcism?
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	He yielded piece by piece by piece.
	Because it's never sudden.
	It's never sudden.
	It's just a little bit here and a little bit there.
	And he yielded to temptation.
	It wasn't sexual temptation either.
	It was pride and arrogance.
	And then this mystery of choice comes in.
	The selectivity.
	As I said before earlier in the broadcast, there's no profile.
	We try to create a profile.
	There's none.
	Some men who are very naughty are not possessed.
	Some men who are possessed are not very naughty in their lives.
	They're not crooks.
	They're not evil in that sense.
	But they are possessed.
	Yielded.
	God only knows.
	That's free will, of course.
	But it was a very distressing thing and involved a lot of people.
	Involved his whole family.
	Involved his whole parish.
	Involved the local bishop.
	Wow.
	And it was very distressing.
	He emerged from it, but he succumbed after a short time.
	He died.
	He died?
	He was cured.
	He was saved.
	But he died.
	And he came out of it utterly white.
	And he was a young man with a big shock of red hair.
	And a young man, he was a young priest.
	But the rot had started very early on in his family.
	He never told anybody anything about it.
	And it was the most distressing thing I've been through.
	It really was the most distressing one.
	How did you come out of it?
	I came out of it with a little bit of me dead, quite frankly.
	Something I can't get back until eternity when God rewards me, I hope.
	But something in me died.
	It takes a little piece of your... of what, Doctor?
	Your faith?
	No, it takes a little bit of... You know what?
	Look, we're both adults.
	You know what a vitality is?
	Yes.
	And what, you know, verve and, as the French call it, sens d'attaque.
	Yes.
	The power of cackling something.
	Of course.
	When that's diminished and diminished and diminished, then that's where I speak about little bits of you departing.
	Little bits of you die.
	It's a sacrifice you make.
	You can give.
	In Algiers, those children to whom you give love, you can't get it back.
	Of your life essence or energy?
	Yeah, you can't give it to somebody else.
	You know, you give something which is of your very soul and we willingly do it as parents or as parish priests or as counselors.
	But I know a sufficient number of psychiatrists and psychologists and I know they expend themselves for the sake of their patients and they can't give back what they give.
	They give money, sure, yes, but that's no substitute at all.
	So then when it happens to a priest or somebody of great faith or service to God, it is harder, it is deeper.
	It is.
	And you know, if you were to get close to the present Pope, that's what strikes you about him at certain moments.
	A complete draining of his spirit.
	I remember I had to convey a message to him once.
	He came home from a ten day tour of the Far East.
	And Doctor, Doctor, we're at the top of the hour.
	Are you constitutionally capable of another hour?
	You are?
	Of course I am, yes.
	All right.
	Wonderful.
	Stay right there and we'll be right back to you.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest.
	We're talking about exorcism and possession and more.
	and we will be back on the next episode of Coast to Coast AM.
	Bye for now.
	Bye.
	Bye.
	Art Bell.
	Tonight's show is from 1996.
	It's Art's very first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	For more years than I have really considered adult things, he has done exorcisms.
	He is a fascinating man.
	And you're going to want to turn your radio up and just sort of settle down and listen carefully.
	We'll get back to him.
	Alright.
	The following comes to me, as you might imagine, unsigned for a good reason.
	Doctor, I'm going to read you something.
	I'd like you to react to it, if you would.
	Certainly.
	Dear Art and Dr. Martin, in 1991, I made a pact with anyone that could get my girlfriend to come back.
	The response was by Satan.
	At that point, my eyes literally rolled back, and I heard only two words, one year.
	One year later, she broke up with me for no good reason.
	Several months later, I was asleep, had a dream that I was looking at myself in a mirror, brushing my hair.
	When I looked at my eyes in the mirror, they turned totally black.
	The person was me, but the soul behind the eyes, evil.
	At that point I knew exactly who it was, what I wanted, and how it got there.
	At this point I was awake, tried to get up and turn on the lights, but was physically pushed back down to a prone position and could no longer move even a finger to make matters worse.
	The bedroom door slammed shut and I was cut off from the light in the hallway.
	What happened to this person?
	This person accepted position and was Possessed and infested.
	And the demonic power took over.
	I'd love to know what happened subsequently.
	There's no doubt about it.
	It's a genuine... Everything there is genuine.
	And this was copied from a book.
	But it's a genuine... They're genuine phenomena.
	Do these things really happen?
	Doors slam?
	They really happen, they do.
	Art pointed out that if you go to a doctor and tell him that, he'll send you to a shrink.
	But it doesn't help to go to a shrink with these things at all, unless the shrink knows what he's talking about and sends you off to an exorcist.
	Apropos of that, remember you also got a letter or a fax from somebody asking you to cease and desist in this conversation?
	Correct.
	I now know, my reading of that is that their lifestyle is disturbed by being told the truth about demonic possession and harassment.
	To get back to this particular gentleman, I would love to know the result of, he won't tell us this time, perhaps some other time he will, Tell us what happened to him subsequently.
	Everything that's there sounds absolutely genuine.
	Has happened, is chronicled, is known to have happened to others, and is genuinely the effect of demonic infestation.
	Alright, one other doctor.
	Could you tell us, please, more about what you believe may be seen in the sky, you said keep your eye on the sky, between now and next spring.
	Should we be looking for?
	And then, as a matter of fact, before you answer that, also he says, can we obtain Dr. Martin's books?
	Yes, they can.
	You have many books.
	You've been a very prolific writer.
	I'm 16, and I have one at the present moment called Windswept House, which is about the present condition of the Church of Rome, and of the present Pope, and what's going to happen shortly to both.
	Because people may not realize it, because of the flourishing condition of the Church, We are in deep crisis in the Roman Catholic Church.
	I'm a priest.
	I say Mass every morning.
	I baptize babies.
	I hear confessions, etc.
	So I'm a traditional priest.
	But I know we're in deep doo-doo.
	In deep trouble.
	That's my latest book.
	It's the 16th book I've written.
	It's called Windswept House.
	That's right.
	Published by Doubleday.
	Doubleday.
	So your books are generally available in bookstores?
	That's right.
	Or in paperback.
	This one is still not in paperback.
	It will be next year.
	What, um, what, Doctor, are ghosts?
	Ghosts?
	Yes, sir.
	Genuine ghosts are visitations by people already dead who are allowed by God to visit the living for some reason or other, usually known to the person visited But not admitted by them until they wake up.
	There are some cases where what we call ghosts is demonic infestation of a house or a city or a street.
	It does happen.
	Have you had occasion where you have exorcised a spirit or a ghost or whatever it is from a house, from a structure?
	In a house, yes.
	Going from room to room and expelling the demon.
	It must be done.
	I'll be doing that in December in Washington, D.C.
	You are in your 70s.
	Again, I ask you, concern about yourself.
	Does there not come a time when physically you should refrain from doing this?
	Yes, and I have refrained to a large extent.
	It's nothing like the febrile activity of my 40s and 50s and 60s.
	No, I haven't.
	Then I've had open heart surgery.
	Oh, my.
	And two heart attacks.
	So, you know, simply the nature of things has imposed a certain restraint on me.
	Were either one of these heart attacks associated with exorcisms?
	One of them was.
	One of them was?
	Yes, the bad one.
	But that's the price you pay.
	And, Art, you know, we're only here for a short time.
	It is true.
	It is true.
	All right, let's go back to the phones.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Where are you, please?
	I'm in Fairbanks, Alaska.
	Fairbanks, Alaska.
	Yes, sir.
	What's on your mind, sir?
	Say again?
	What's on your mind?
	I have a question for you.
	I used to be involved in magic before I was a Christian.
	Uh-huh.
	And so many demons and all that kind of strange stuff.
	Yes.
	The question I have for you, though, is now there's a person up here who is infested with them.
	Who is in touch with what?
	Demons.
	You can actually see it because of some of the stuff he does.
	And I was just wondering, as a Christian, should I even attempt to cast them out or just leave them alone?
	Oh, that's a good question.
	It is.
	Unless you have special authority, don't touch it with a bat.
	Don't touch it.
	Keep away from it.
	Protect yourself.
	Don't attempt to deal with it.
	Is that clear enough for you, caller?
	Yeah, that's fine.
	It's stronger than you, it's more intelligent than you.
	Okay.
	Alright, have a good morning and stay safe.
	These are the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Good morning to both of you.
	I'm sorry I haven't been listening this morning, but I am taping it for later listening.
	Where are you, sir?
	Yeah, I'm sorry?
	Where are you?
	I'm in Fayetteville, North Carolina.
	Name's Bill.
	I've got a question for you and also one for Dr. Martin.
	If I remember correctly, you said you had a story about a Ouija board which you would not dare tell?
	That's right.
	That's all I wanted to know about that.
	That's all I'm willing to say.
	Dr. Martin, it's a pleasure and honor to speak with you, sir.
	I was listening to Art's show earlier and I believe Sunday night you had a Dreamland thing where you had a seance Is that correct, Art?
	I have a recording.
	I didn't have a seance.
	I wouldn't do that.
	But I had somebody on who had conducted a seance, and in the course of that, there was the sound of babies crying.
	I played that on the air.
	Yes, indeed.
	I recall, I believe a woman called in and said she heard a female voice in the background as well.
	But nonetheless, Dr. Martin, my question for you is just very simply, what is the role of a séance in the act of demonic possession?
	The role of the séance is chiefly this, it lays you open to invasion.
	Because the essence of a séance is the sitting, or standing, or lying down, it depends on what physical posture they take, and trying to commune I have a question.
	commune with the spirits and that means opening the channels of your mind and will.
	If you do that you are a sitting duck.
	First time caller on the line, you are on the air with Dr.
	Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Hi, this is Rita.
	Yes, Rita.
	I have a question.
	My sister in law that lives with us is mentally retarded and I feel that sometimes what I
	see coming out of her is like a demonic thing.
	What happens is if you ask her who her friend is, you know, you ask her in a certain way, she'll say my friend is Satan of the Black Mountain.
	My daughter knows how to get her going and just get crazy and I just wonder sometimes Has she always been like this?
	Well, not from the start of my marriage to my husband.
	He told me that she's evil.
	And she has evil ways about her.
	Has she always been retarded?
	As far as, yes.
	As far as he knows she was born that way.
	And she's got like the mentality of a five-year-old.
	Mm-hmm.
	That's what the doctors have said.
	Now, I've seen her as normal as you and I. I mean, I don't know how you are, but I mean... Yeah, you can presume we're normal.
	See, my daughter pretends to vomit, and she'll just go off.
	And I'll tell her, I'll say, will you stop?
	You know, just sit there and stay calm.
	Ignore her, you know, if you can't do it.
	Doctor, it brings up an awfully good question.
	A retarded child, is that an easier target for possession?
	No.
	No, it's not.
	It's not.
	There has to be collaboration of the will for possession.
	Doctor, I wonder how many people in mental institutions all across this country, instead of being mentally ill, may be possessed?
	I've only gone through, with a psychiatrist, I've only gone through two mental institutions.
	Let's call them that.
	And over 50% are obviously possessed.
	In those two places.
	So then even in the case of a child, like this lady's child, you would recommend, based on what you heard, that perhaps she sees somebody like yourself?
	Yes.
	Somebody in authority to do something about it.
	But it's very hard to judge a case like this at this distance.
	But from what she says, it looks like that.
	Alright, ma'am?
	It looks like she could be possessed?
	It could be that she could be infested, yeah.
	Yeah, because I've talked to a priest.
	Yeah, I'm Catholic.
	And I've talked to a priest and they think I'm crazy.
	What I see is I can't get her to open up or to be this way in front of anybody.
	But it's like the sheep that is the wolf that's under the sheepskin.
	Yeah, I know.
	And you're being very much more accurate than you know in describing it.
	You must find a good priest.
	And I've talked to priests that say that They wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
	Of course not.
	They're afraid of their pants.
	Is that most priests, doctor, or a majority of them?
	Unfortunately, today, a majority.
	Because, you see, now when they're training in seminaries, they're not given any formation, whatever.
	They're given no formation, no theological formation, and no instruction.
	And then, a lot of them, a lot of the professors in seminaries, a lot of the trainers, A lot of the bishops don't believe in the devil.
	And that's great PR for him, because it means, as you know, during the war, the successful spy was the one nobody knew was a spy.
	Well, how can, a dumb question from a layman, how can a priest believe in the Almighty and not the other force?
	Because, actually Art, it's a very telling question, and it's an intelligent question, because Overall, their faith has weakened.
	I said before to you, it's a dimension.
	It's not a quantum.
	It's a dimension.
	And overall, it has... And if you... I have done this.
	I've probed people who don't believe in this, and I find that their belief in the resurrection of Christ Jesus, their belief in heaven, their belief in hell, is all shaken to bits, sometimes non-existent.
	Can I ask you about a very sensitive question, again, regarding the fallibility of priests, In America, in the church, there have been too many stories, Doctor, of priests after their vows of celibacy who have then... Pedophilia.
	Yes.
	There have.
	There's no doubt about it.
	There is a plague of pedophilia.
	Now, by the way, look out.
	There are 55,000 something, 55,000 priests in the Dioceses of America.
	And of that, of that amount of 55,000, about approximately 2 to 4% Have been found guilty of pedophilia.
	Have been pedophiliacs.
	It's still too much.
	And there's no Darbal, there's been a plague, and it's been worsened because of the policy of bishops to cover things up.
	Whereas, if you find a pedophiliac, priest or layman, you go to the nearest precinct and report him.
	In my book.
	But they didn't do that, they covered it up.
	And they transferred the man to another parish with more little boys and little girls to be violated.
	And therefore they have had a very severe amount of trouble.
	And by the way, since 1985, the church in America has spent well over 500 or 600 million dollars in out-of-court settlements.
	And that's the money and the diamonds and the nickels of a faithful.
	Is it, Doctor, because of the church's attitude about it?
	In other words, they feel that there's been a breach of faith and they want to work on that breach of faith instead of letting it become a civil matter?
	Or is it just a plain old cover-up?
	It's more complicated than that.
	There isn't a network of homosexual priests.
	We know that now.
	Unfortunately, there is a network.
	And they cover for each other.
	So that's a complicating factor.
	It's not a wide network, but it does exist.
	Number one.
	Number two, as you know, for any ecclesiastic in the Catholic Church, there are only two evils.
	Bankruptcy, What are your feelings about vows of celibacy?
	I'll tell you something.
	My experience as a chaplain in the U.S.
	and therefore they try and cover anything up which is light, which breeds scandal
	because that destroys prestige and finally stops money, stops people contributing
	What are your feelings about vows of celibacy?
	I'll tell you something My experience follows, whether as a chaplain in the US Air
	Force, which I was Oh!
	or as a parish priest, which I have functioned as and as a priest now dealing with people
	there's no doubt about it that a priest who is a celibate, a real celibate, not just a eunuch
	A real celibate, yes.
	Many who take the vow of celibacy are really eunuchs.
	Somebody has put a chastity belt on them and thrown away the key and they're looking for the key.
	And sometimes they find it to be rude and lewd about it.
	But genuine celibacy, It makes you so specialized that people can confide in you.
	Yes.
	And they know you belong to them and them alone.
	And they know you're not going home at night to your wife.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	But you're not sharing anything with anybody.
	Your heart belongs to Christ as a celibate, if you're truly a celibate.
	But celibacy is a gift, by the way.
	And it's a rare thing, the practice of celibacy.
	There are a lot of celibates who take that vow.
	But the practice of celibacy does make a man very special, because he's uniquely devoted.
	And by the way, I don't know if you've found this out, but the biggest psychiatrists I know, the biggest surgeons, they're practically celibate.
	Yes.
	They really are.
	But there's a price.
	Ah, there's a huge price.
	There's no doubt about it.
	And that's where good celibacy comes in.
	If you are really a celibate, you don't dry up like a fig And become hard and emotionless and insensitive to human feeling.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes.
	It's such a difficult thing to attain.
	But if you do attain it, boy, people find it so useful, so practical, so helpful.
	And some of those who don't end up perhaps as pedophiles or other... That's right.
	And as abrasive characters.
	Because they're frustrated beyond belief.
	All right.
	You answered that in a very straightforward way.
	Doctors, stand by.
	We'll be back to you shortly.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is in Manhattan.
	Wherever you are, don't move.
	We'll be right back.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	Once again, here I am.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin in Manhattan, up very late at this hour.
	And we'll get right back to him.
	Alright, I'm sort of sorting through the faxes and questions that I'm getting.
	Dr. Martin, another one I want you to listen to here.
	Dr. Martin, I went to Brophy College Prep in Phoenix, the premier Jesuit high school in Arizona.
	Since I've left there, I've been tormented by a will that is other than my own.
	I've been forced to commit acts that I would never have dreamed possible myself.
	I have no control over them.
	I want to do otherwise, but I can't stop.
	I feel I've been violated spiritually.
	I've had my mind and will taken over by other spirits.
	I know I have felt a force in me Driving me to do other than I want to do.
	I am not a Jesuit.
	I am more or less of the new spirituality that's out there.
	I feel I have been tormented by demons and have been possessed.
	I need to know how I can stop it.
	I want to have faith, but I'm scared.
	I believe each individual holds God within himself, but I'm so afraid of losing control to these others again that I can't hold any faith at all.
	What can I do?
	Go to a local priest, a bishop.
	An exorcist.
	Yes, an exorcist.
	How hard are they to find today?
	Not so difficult.
	In certain places they don't exist, but in other places they do.
	And the first place to go to is the diocese and chancery, or the local parish priest.
	All right, good advice.
	Mr. Bell, this is Catherine from the Gulf Coast area of Texas.
	Would you please ask Father Martin this question?
	Father John O'Connor, Not Cardinal John O'Connor, said because the energy loss from a true exorcist is so great that a Catholic exorcist lives only about 15 years after he is deeply involved in this.
	He further says the hatred from the demon is so horrendous that it literally drains him.
	Yes?
	Yes.
	But there are exceptions to the 15 year rule.
	You must be one of them.
	Yes, I am.
	How do you feel Why do you feel that you've been so blessed?
	I don't know, Art.
	I just don't know.
	I take it as it comes.
	I didn't expect to live this long.
	I really didn't.
	Surprise, huh?
	Surprise is right.
	If you had told me that one day would be 76, I would have horse laughed.
	Horse laughed?
	Yes.
	I would like to ask you about something we've dealt with on this program several times.
	I know your background is in archaeology.
	That's right.
	So therefore, there have been many who have speculated and talked and thought about the pyramids, the Sphinx at Giza in Egypt.
	Yes.
	There is some work going on that may result in the opening of some secret passages below the Sphinx.
	Yes, I've read about this.
	I'm not all cool with it.
	I don't know how far they've got.
	I don't know really what's being done, but I know there's something being done of that nature.
	Would you be surprised if there is something very ancient found there?
	No, no, no, no.
	You see, the soil of Egypt and of Palestine in general preserves things because it's dry.
	And I'm convinced that one of these days we're going to find the most extraordinary things like, for instance, A copy of the Bible coming from pre-exilic times.
	That is, before the Babylonian captivity.
	That's about 580 B.C.
	Which would be tremendous to find.
	And if we did, what would you imagine might be within that would cast doubt on much of what we believe?
	It wouldn't.
	It would confirm.
	Because I'm certain that we have a proper tradition.
	But it would be lovely to have a manuscript from that time.
	From the time of Isaiah.
	Do you believe that the Ark of the Covenant will be found?
	Personally, I do.
	But I have no objective scientific grounds for saying so.
	I think it will be found.
	Well, as you know, this new tunnel, archaeological tunnel, that has just been reopened again... Yes, caused all the trouble.
	Yes, many believe that the Ark of the Covenant is close.
	It may well be.
	As I say, I have a feeling that we will find the Ark of the Covenant.
	That God will allow us to find it.
	But I have no archaeological reason for saying that.
	Alright, one more and then we'll go back to the phones.
	Joseph in Seattle wants to know, do you have any comment about the numerous sightings and encounters of, and with, what are being called extraterrestrial beings and their relationship, if any, with demons, angels, and the quickening process?
	The only comment I would make is that some of the so-called or so-defined sightings of extraterrestrials sounds like demonic activity, but I have never examined the thing closely and scientifically or professionally, so I don't know.
	But some of it sounds very like demonic activity and nothing to do with extraterrestrial beings.
	If such things exist.
	Do you rule out the possibility of extraterrestrial beings?
	No, I do not.
	We just don't know.
	Would the existence of them in any way shake your faith?
	No, it would not.
	Not the slightest way.
	It would expand my consciousness.
	For instance, when Columbus discovered America, he in that sense discovered America, it was a mind opener for the Europeans.
	It certainly was.
	It was a mind-opener.
	I mean, it revolutionized the whole of Europe and the whole of the world.
	And they found it impossible to believe it in the beginning, because they believed there were two-headed men and giants and misshapen creatures outside Europe.
	They didn't know anything better.
	Then they suddenly found out that there were generations of people living outside of Europe that had lived and died for hundreds and hundreds of years.
	That may well be.
	and they didn't lose their faith, on the contrary, they expanded it.
	I have an inkling, I don't know, but from the data so far assembled,
	I have a feeling that there are no extraterrestrial lives within our galaxy.
	That may well be.
	I think it's outside our galaxy.
	That may well be.
	But that's only my own assessment.
	I'm not an astronomer.
	First time color line you're on the air with dr. Malachi Martin
	Hi.
	Hello, Dr. Martin.
	Yes.
	About five years ago, I had a, in a weak moment, I had a suicide attempt.
	Yes.
	It seemed like there were forces in the house that saved me.
	Uh-huh.
	Okay.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Vancouver, Canada.
	Now, about six months before that, we were doing a bunch of, not Ouija, but the same sort of thing.
	And it seemed as though there were forces.
	And it seemed as though I was saved.
	But I've had nothing but bad luck since this time.
	Can you Tell me... Well, if you have dabbled in the Ouija board, seriously, and if you have dabbled in any... It's occult.
	There's no doubt about that.
	You're dealing with occult forces.
	Then, you may have some attachments to you that you don't like, spiritual attachments, in your spirit, and you want to get rid of them.
	Yes.
	And you want to get a good priest.
	Who can get rid of them for you?
	It's very hard to get rid of them yourself.
	But a good priest can do that.
	I am not a... I'm not a Catholic or... That doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter?
	It doesn't matter.
	You're a human being.
	Alright.
	You're redeemed by Christ, whether you like it or not.
	Whether you believe it or not.
	So, seek proper help.
	That's right.
	Doctor, the nature of suicide...
	Yes.
	What happens to a soul that commits suicide?
	Well, you know, it's called Satan's Eighth Sacrament Suicide.
	There are seven satanic sacraments, apparently, but the suicide is the eighth one.
	What happens is briefly this, that by my own hand, I cut myself off from leading a life according to God's will, who is the master of life and of death.
	And by doing that, I violate a fundamental commandment of His, which is, do not kill yourself.
	It's a fundamental law in my nature.
	And I thereby enter the grey area Where I can never see the light again.
	I can never be with God.
	I can never have happiness.
	And I suffer the torment of being separated from the one thing that would have made me happy.
	Would have made me, beatified me forever.
	God and His beauty and His truth.
	And His heaven.
	What about those people that suffer physical maladies that are terminal and horrible and simply...
	I know.
	I've thought about this and talked about it on the radio over many years.
	My position was, whose life is it anyway?
	I'll be in control of my own life.
	Nobody will tell me what to do.
	My wife told me, Doctor, don't do it.
	Even if you're suffering, you are meant to go through this and if you don't go through it, something terrible is going to happen.
	Those words have rung in my ears for years.
	I know, they ring in my ears now that you've said them and I won't forget them.
	They've been said to me on other occasions by other people for other reasons, for the same reasons.
	I don't know, I really don't know, Art, in the whole of human history that I have read and talked about and inquired into, I don't know of any explanation justifying human suffering Except the sufferings of Jesus Christ on his cross.
	If I can identify with his sufferings, in spite of my cancer, in spite of my arthritis, in spite of my AIDS, if I have these things, if I can identify with his sufferings, I can merit a greater place in heaven.
	I can measure greater closeness to God and I know in my soul what I want is God's beauty and truth.
	So then to avoid it by taking your own life is to exclude yourself from his company?
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Now, I do not exclude at all, Art.
	I must tell you this much.
	I do not exclude that, for instance, if I proceed to take cyanide or something, you Some suicidal act.
	I do not exclude that before I die, God can touch my heart and make me repent of it, even though I can't undo what I've done.
	In other words, a redemption always possible even at the last second.
	Yes, I don't exclude God's mercy, but you're running a terrible risk.
	You know?
	The numbers might not be with you.
	That's right.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Yes, thank you.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm calling from California.
	Thank you for the opportunity to speak with Dr. Malachi.
	I had a couple of questions.
	First, I was very concerned about something that you said.
	You had stated something about the draining of your spirit.
	Yes, that's right.
	I didn't really understand.
	Let's try and explain that again in the course of an exorcism.
	Um, your spirit is drained or a piece of you is lost forever.
	Is that about right?
	That's about it.
	You give out something you can't get back.
	Otherwise you're no good.
	You're not effective.
	It's like the love you give your child or your wife or your husband or your country or a cause.
	You really give love.
	You don't get it back.
	Does that help you, Connor?
	I just wanted to humbly say that there is that one infinite spirit of love that is inexhaustible.
	That's right, that's right.
	But the question that I had, you know, in my studying of metaphysics, and I try to, I do Stay within, you know, the matrix of Christian principles.
	Yes, yes.
	You know, but I've come to realize that throughout Christendom that there is much phenomena to be studied, you know, from the Appalachian people who handle serpents and drink poison in the name of Christ, and glossolalia in the name of Christ, and these exorcisms and apparitions.
	So your question is?
	I just wanted him to comment on that.
	And another question that I had was that... Yes?
	Is not the Revelation, in your thinking, a prophecy of mass exorcism?
	Mass exorcism?
	I never heard of that.
	I don't think it's possible.
	Too bad.
	It's just not possible.
	Too bad.
	Because we could use one.
	We could, Art.
	We could, but this is one-on-one.
	One-on-one.
	It's always one-on-one, isn't it?
	It is finally one-on-one.
	There is such a thing as a demon sharing several people, and you can get rid of that demon and exclude that, but it's not a mass exorcism.
	You're still concentrating on one damned spirit.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, this is Thomas in Madison, Wisconsin.
	It's an honor to speak to you, Father Martin.
	I just finished reading your book, Hostage to the Devil, and I thought it was one of the best books I've ever read.
	It was fascinating.
	In one of the chapters you spoke about a professor who was one of the leaders in parapsychic development and astral travel.
	That's right.
	And I was wondering if that has any connection with what is widely known now as remote viewing?
	Yes, it has.
	And if there's any demonic possession related to remote viewing?
	Yes, there is.
	There is a demonic possession related to it.
	In the process of doing what these remote viewers do, and it is very interesting, Doctor, because there was a Nightline program.
	Yes.
	And it turns out our own government for 20 years has been involved in remote viewing.
	Oh yes, oh yes.
	What is a person doing when they remote view, it's not exactly an out-of-body, or is it out-of-body, and they are subject then to all kinds of things as you are when you open other doors with Ouija boards or whatever?
	I'll tell you what it is, Art, really, what is at stake.
	And it's very volatile.
	It's like nitroglycerin.
	For the soul.
	It's this.
	There are latent powers.
	In us all.
	Yes.
	I believe that.
	The Nazis.
	The Nazis.
	In their death camps.
	Seeking to develop the perfect mind control.
	Developed means.
	Yeah, they found means of developing these latent powers.
	When we conquered Germany, we imported not merely physical scientists, rocket scientists like Von Braun and the others, we also imported the doctors who had gone in for mind control.
	And some of those mind control methods were used in the special forces of the USA.
	And they have found that in certain cases, They produce the very traits that you find in possessed people.
	But it does give remote viewing, makes it a reality, and remote action a reality.
	And the Soviets, in their day, and the Nazis, went much further than we ever went.
	We learned from them.
	But it's highly dangerous because, you probably heard me say, and it went by your ear, Art, and I didn't emphasize this, I spoke about the middle plateau.
	The Middle Plateau.
	I mentioned that once.
	That Middle Plateau is the plateau on which evil spirits work.
	And they use every paranormal power that they can that's latent in human beings and can be evinced, can be used.
	And it's very dangerous and volatile.
	It's the nitroglycerin of the soul.
	It can blow it up.
	And it's a very dangerous thing because you let loose You let loose something amongst human beings as a group that's destructive in the extreme and completely immoral.
	There's no ethic.
	There's no moral.
	There's no rule at all.
	No, I believe that as well.
	I believe that as well.
	But it is real, isn't it?
	Oh, gee whiz.
	It's real.
	That's the difficulty about it.
	It is real.
	And I know people who teach it.
	So do I.
	But not for me.
	Thank you very much.
	I'm a coward.
	I run.
	I really do.
	I have nothing to do with it.
	I want to stay with the devils or with the angels.
	You know, circling back, again, I can't get it out of my mind.
	There are these people who have comfortably made a deal and are living with this deal.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	And they expect to go home to Satan.
	Oh, yes.
	Are there more and more of these people?
	You see them.
	You know them.
	More and more.
	There are more and more appearing to be there.
	And it's very hard to get away from the impression that there are more disciples than there ever were before of Lucifer.
	Lucifer in particular, not much later.
	Lucifer.
	Listen, Doctor, we are at the end of another hour.
	Okay.
	Are you willing to stay for the final one?
	Yes.
	You are?
	Wonderful.
	Why don't we crown it up and finish it up?
	So we shall.
	Stay right there.
	Relax.
	It'll be several minutes.
	We'll be back to you.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest.
	And I've got a couple of questions.
	One concerning something called the Gulf, when we come back.
	You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Well I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have been
	You're dirty and sweet, cat in the bag Don't look back when I love you
	You're dirty and sweet, I don't care When you're sitting in the week
	You got the teeth of the hydrant upon you You're dirty and sweet in your mind
	Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM is an Encore presentation from
	It's Art Bell's very first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	I'm Art Bell.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin, and we'll get back to him in just a moment.
	Sound of a thunderstorm.
	All right, back now to Dr. Malachi Martin, who is my guest.
	Doctor, a couple quick questions before we go back to the phones.
	Doctor, was that movie, The Exorcist, based on a real case?
	I meant to ask you that.
	Yes, it was.
	It was.
	It was based on a real case, but it was highly Hollywoodized.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes.
	Because the reality was very different.
	It was a landmark case, actually.
	Way back in the 1950s.
	And it was a genuine possession case of a young boy.
	They made it into a girl.
	The Exodus movie itself.
	Yes.
	But it was a landmark case and was written up only two years ago with the actual thing, the actual history itself, published by Thomas Allen.
	And he just simply wrote it up as a reporter.
	It's fascinating stuff.
	I believe it was in the St.
	Louis area, wasn't it?
	That's right, it was.
	It was.
	The actual telling of this thing, the real, the history of it, is much more fascinating than the book.
	It's much more fascinating.
	It's an amazing thing.
	But it's a landmark case.
	Was there a loose connection to the real case?
	Yes, there was.
	There was a loose connection.
	But it was very loose altogether.
	Nevertheless, I shall never forget the end of that movie.
	You mentioned there was a case.
	Of somebody going out a window.
	That's right.
	There was.
	Where was that?
	That was in Washington, D.C.
	Resulted in a death?
	Yup.
	It is equivalent to defenestration.
	Doctor, there was another movie that I saw once called The Seventh Sign.
	I never saw that one.
	No.
	It doesn't matter.
	It talked in the movie about the guff.
	The place from which souls come.
	New souls imparted to new human beings.
	Born.
	And it theorized that one day that guff became empty.
	And there were no more souls.
	And it began the end of all.
	Is there an endless supply of souls?
	Well, put it like this.
	God can go on creating souls as much as he likes.
	In that sense, there's an endless supply.
	But they're not just hanging around some place, like in cold storage, waiting for bodies.
	You know, that's a bit of fancy.
	Yes, no doubt.
	It's a bit of fancy.
	All right, well this following is not fancy.
	It's awfully serious.
	We're drawing a lot of serious comments, and I'm going to read this to you and get your reaction.
	Sure.
	Dr. Martin, I've recently been fighting suicide.
	Yes.
	I was at a point where I gave up on life because of my sexuality.
	Yes.
	I've known that for a long time and have never wanted to be that way.
	I once gave up and came close to suicide and tried to invite forces toward me that would help me attain the goal.
	Now, however, I don't want to die, but I find myself being compelled to this route very often.
	I feel something is pulling me to kill myself.
	How do I deal with it?
	I know the Catholic Church condemns homosexuality, but am I really as evil as these forces that are driving me to kill myself?
	How do I overcome it?
	The answer is that you are not as evil as these forces would have you believe.
	And the persuasion that you are evil is merely a means of getting you to despair and say, what's the point?
	Let me kill myself.
	You need a good confessor.
	You need a good advisor, as well as perhaps some therapy.
	But therapy won't cure this.
	It's a question of Asking God's mercy in getting it, and getting absolution for sins, and starting the long process of cultivating friendship with God.
	It can be done.
	And a good priest will help you.
	And there are good priests.
	Alright.
	On behalf of a lot of people out there, I'm going to ask this.
	If someone wanted to try to ask you, Father, a personal question, Is there a way to do it by writing to you?
	I know you have a webpage.
	I have a webpage, but perhaps they want to make it more private than that.
	In that case, they can address a letter to me at the following address.
	217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
	That will be confidential.
	I may never answer, but I usually answer all my letters.
	Well, that's going to be a chore.
	That's going to be some chore.
	That'll keep you busy.
	217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
	Alright, in addition, you do have a webpage.
	I presume somebody could send you email?
	Yes, they can.
	Alright, that webpage is linked on mine, so a lot of my audience will know my webpage.
	You can go there and link immediately to Dr. Martens, on the first time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yes, I'm calling from Honolulu, Hawaii.
	Yes, sir.
	My name is Father Seraphim.
	I'm a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.
	Yes, sir.
	Hello, Father Malachi.
	Hello, Father.
	How are you?
	Very good.
	We've been hearing an awful lot.
	I'm a member of the Russian Church Abroad, which is Old Calendar and very opposed to the ecumenical movement.
	Gotcha.
	With the Balamon Document, accepting basically was against Unionism, but a mutual acceptance of both the Roman Church and the Eastern Church's sacraments, both ways.
	And the Patriarch of Constantinople, as you well know, is trained at the Oriental Institute by the Jesuits in Rome.
	I was wondering if you have any insight that both he and Pope John Paul have both expressed that their desire is for The Church to Unite, the two, as they say, called the two lungs of the body of Christ to unite by the year 2000.
	What insight do you have in this?
	Well, I'll tell you, Father, I didn't get your name.
	Father what?
	Father Seraphim.
	Father Seraphim.
	Father Seraphim, I wish I had better news for you in this matter.
	I can tell you exactly where we stand in the matter.
	Bartholomew, both Bartholomew and Alexei of Moscow, but talking about Bartholomew as the head of Constantinople Church, I have both stressed that at the present moment there is nothing in sight, there's no union in sight, for the simple reason that basic questions are so outstanding that unless there was a miracle overnight, we have no solution to the problem of jurisdiction.
	There's great goodwill, there's no doubt about that, and I expect, Fr.
	Seraphim, that within a few years we will have General permission to communicate each other.
	I think we will have, de facto at the present moment, there are Greek Orthodox that share Catholic communion and Catholics that share Greek Orthodox communion.
	Correct.
	With the connivance and the agreement of local priests and local bishops too.
	Right.
	That should be done though officially by the heads of orthodoxy and the head of the Roman Catholic Church We're pretty far from that, I think, between you and me, Father Seraphim.
	I'd rather be realistic about it.
	How did the Pope see the Balaamon document, which was against Judaism, but did accept, on a unilateral basis, the validity of both churches and their sacraments?
	Oh, it did.
	By the way, we didn't even need that document, because we have already accepted the validity of Orthodox sacraments by God.
	When Greek Orthodox are dying and they have a Catholic spouse, I absolve them with the Greek priest.
	We both work together.
	Doctor, a layman's question for me, and we deal with this all the time on the air.
	Sure.
	Over all of human history, so many men have killed so many men in the name of their Creator.
	That's right.
	They have.
	We know that.
	We know that.
	We're just coming to this realization, but we still do it, you know, to a large degree.
	Yes, we do.
	We still do it.
	And it is an aberration.
	I mean, you had, for instance, in the First World War and the Second World War, you had the example of French chaplains, chaplains to the French Armed Forces.
	Invoking God's grace for victory over the Germans.
	And you have, on the German side, German chaplains invoking God's help for Germans to have a victory over the French.
	You know?
	It becomes, at a certain stage, ridiculous.
	And it's counterproductive.
	So, this is a stage through which religions have gone, and I think they're now getting to the stage of saying it's all foolishness.
	There's no such thing as God sanctifying killing or industrial slaughter.
	That's what I always thought, and I think that has moved many away from faith.
	It sure has, and it has disaffected many Catholics and many believers, both Jewish and Muslim and Christian and Catholic.
	All right.
	It's our own fault.
	It's not God's fault.
	I suspect much, yes indeed, I suspect much of what occurs on Earth is free will and all that.
	Sure.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Yeah, good evening, Art.
	Good morning, I guess.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Bob from Pocatello.
	Bob?
	Thank you.
	Yes, sir.
	Good morning, Father.
	Art, we thank you for getting some balance in your show.
	I'm glad it pleases you.
	What is your question?
	Yes, Father Malachi, thank you very much.
	I'm not of your faith, but... That's all right.
	You believe in God.
	Understood.
	We, according to Scripture, give thanks for the good works of all men.
	Sure.
	Did you feel that essentially people, I know I got a book written by a man named Courtney
	Brown who was a guest on our show and read it and knew it.
	In that book, the question is this, and let me throw the question out before I give the background.
	Are people sometimes deceived in believing they are following truth and light when they might not be?
	Let me give you an example.
	He said that the good spirit that he thought was Christ was a translucent being, but at the same time, he said the purpose of his visitation to this man was to write the book, and at the same time he renounced the time of Christ in there, the name of Jesus.
	And I wonder if you could expand on that as to why the name of Jesus, there's no other name under heaven where mankind might be.
	It might be glorifying, yes.
	Well, I'll tell you, the only thing is that Christianity holds that there was one Savior.
	His name was Jesus.
	He was born in Nazareth.
	He died in Calvary.
	And he was the Son of God.
	And that in his name, all men can be saved.
	All men and women can be saved.
	To be expensive, as we moderners are now, although all men...
	The point is that that's the essence of Christianity.
	And there's no other name given to us as that of a Savior, the universal Savior, who is God and man.
	That's about as much light as I can shed on it.
	A question that has always bothered me, and maybe you can answer it.
	If I understand correctly, a child that is not a Christian Who becomes an adult and dies without Christianity may not go to heaven.
	May not... May well go to heaven, too.
	It all depends.
	On?
	It all depends on the child's will.
	What he or she does with her will.
	Put it like this.
	Not crudely, but put it as bluntly as possible.
	If a good Muslim or a good Jew Or a good Mormon.
	Or a good Buddhist.
	Lives their life according to their lights.
	As best they can.
	If they really avoid sin.
	And they can get the grace of going to heaven, but that grace comes to them through Jesus, even though they don't know him.
	So, no, they're not excluded from heaven.
	That answers a question I've long had.
	I always was under the impression that with one is not baptized, one can't go to heaven.
	No, that's not so.
	It's not so.
	That's not so.
	The equivalent of baptism, the cleansing of sin, and therefore the being pleasing to God, can take place through the grace of Christ.
	There are many paths.
	There are many paths.
	The only thing is that It's difficult to avoid sin.
	It's difficult to be a good man, a good woman.
	It's difficult.
	The grace of God is necessary.
	And how many men and women achieve that?
	God only knows.
	But they're not excluded just by not being Christians.
	They can get the grace of Christ by living their lives as they should.
	All right.
	That's a good answer.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art and Father Martin.
	Good morning, sir.
	First of all, I'd like to say that a man like you... I'm sorry, I was just trying to be complimentary.
	Where are you, sir?
	I am calling from Valparaiso, Indiana.
	Alright, I presume you have a question.
	Yes.
	I've had a problem since I was a child, and it has to do with Well, that depends on Art, really.
	He's the boss of the time here.
	wolf spirits and I'm wondering if you have any type of familiarity with these type of
	things.
	I've had a recent experience but I can spare you that if you don't have a lot of time.
	Well that depends on Art really, he's the boss of the time here.
	But I'll tell you something, this is not an unknown thing.
	You're not telling me anything new.
	Okay.
	And it can be dealt with.
	A wolf spirit.
	What does that mean, Doctor?
	Well, it means that some demon is taking the form of a wolf.
	That's all it means.
	Is that all it means?
	Oh, yes.
	They take the form of wolves or dogs or snakes.
	When I was a child, I used to watch the Late Late Show and I was very frightened by like Wolfman movies and things like that.
	Do they take advantage of fears?
	Of course they do.
	Of course they do.
	But there must have been some, I don't know your history so we haven't the time, but there must be something in your background, either generational or your parents or yourself.
	I am half French.
	Ah, well, the French are also well, you know.
	One quick thing, a person that claimed to be a seer had said that there was a person that was with me.
	And when I was at the place that she had said that, there was nobody with me.
	And she said that this was a large person.
	Could that have been a guardian angel?
	And that's the only other question that I have.
	It could have been a guardian angel, but by this time the guardian angel should have announced himself.
	Is fear an open door?
	Is what?
	Is fear an open door?
	Yes, it is.
	It is an open door.
	Surely you cannot go into a room to perform an exorcism.
	With fear that overcomes your ability to deal with the fight ahead?
	No, you cannot, Art.
	You're absolutely right.
	You can't.
	Fear does open a door.
	It doesn't open a window and makes you vulnerable.
	That's why I said that you can measure your love of God and trust in God by the amount of fear in your heart.
	It's a lot like going into battle as a soldier, isn't it?
	It is.
	You cannot, as a soldier, be paralyzed with fear.
	If you do, you're going to be taken down.
	You can't fight.
	You're not going to fight.
	You'll be taken down.
	All right, Doctor.
	Stand by.
	We'll be right back to you.
	You've done very well.
	I'm sorry.
	Tonight's presentation of Coast to Coast AM is an Encore presentation from Nike.
	It's Art Bell's very first interview with Father Malachi Martin.
	And now, the very best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Good morning, everybody.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Now to my guest Dr. Malachi Martin in Manhattan where I suspect the sun is probably beginning to come up.
	Well, it's not quite up yet.
	There's a little bit of rain and rain clouds here.
	I see.
	But it's still a good morning, though.
	Not one of the three days of darkness somewhere, are they?
	No, no, no.
	It's just good old American rain, you know?
	And it's probably the tail end of some hurricane or something out of the Atlantic.
	All right.
	But still, life is good.
	Life is good.
	Life is great.
	Doctor, a couple of facts questions.
	Do possessed people tend to cluster together or associate with each other?
	Yes, they do.
	Are there people in high government positions, such as mayors, councilmen, even presidents, national leaders, in your view, who are possessed?
	I have known leaders, without saying at what level, municipal, state, or federal, who I have known who are possessed.
	Yes.
	I don't say which country, but yes, certainly.
	Are there things, Father, that in the course of a Exorcism have occurred that you would not ever talk about publicly?
	Yes, there are.
	There are.
	Things connected with somebody's personal shame.
	Things that are very derogatory to a country or a race.
	And then a third category of things which Are forms of blasphemy that hurt you to know.
	That hurt you to know?
	Even to know it hurts you.
	Yeah.
	I understand.
	Yeah.
	It hurts you to know it, so I just know.
	I wouldn't tell anybody.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Where are you, please?
	From Tujunga, Reverie, California.
	Yes.
	Good morning, Doctor.
	Good morning to the world, really.
	I'm wondering whether or not a person can be possessed, first part of this question, and not have any fear.
	Does that mean?
	Not have any fear of what?
	Of anything.
	Of virtually feeling that from the earliest days of my recollection My walk onto one side of the hill or the other has allowed me to experience something that I've always had a notion that may be playing with the dark side, but I wonder if it's possible to have a possession by, as you say, one generation to the next with a spirit or a demon that has to be
	Those who are perfectly possessed are quite comfortable and don't want to change.
	They're very comfortable.
	Well, you may not consider it so. The question is, can you be possessed and be in effect comfortable with that? Is
	that your question?
	Yes, something like if my family went back to the Borgias.
	Alright.
	Those who are perfectly possessed are quite comfortable and don't want to change. They're very comfortable.
	You can have four children and love your children.
	Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
	And love those things in life? Certainly, yes.
	But you will, you'll hand on something.
	Because, look, my friend, I will probably never have the pleasure of meeting you, but I know this much, that if we were to meet, if you meet anybody, if you have some interchange with anybody, even on the telephone, even by this radio satellite that is linking us now, you modify The person morally.
	You've modified me already and I've modified you.
	An artist modified me and I've modified you.
	As always, we human beings are not machines.
	We receive indelible impressions from each other, even at a distance.
	And therefore you influence everybody according to the good or the bad in you.
	And therefore you can't simply say that I can have four children and love them.
	It says you can't.
	But you're going to give them Something that you wouldn't give them if you weren't possessed.
	You understand exactly what you're being told, don't you, caller?
	Yes, I do.
	But doctor, do you sense?
	Do you go by sense or do you go by... A knowing?
	No, I understand.
	It's a knowing, caller.
	That's not hard to answer.
	It's a knowing.
	Alright, I would say to that person, just being a layman, seek somebody out, eh?
	That's what I would.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, is it myself?
	Yes, you.
	Okay.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Wenatchee, Washington.
	All right.
	And I had a question, but I just was kind of really thrown off by something.
	Father Malachi, is it?
	Yes.
	Okay, pronounce it right.
	right you're talking about uh...
	there are many roads to uh... salvation
	that might appear that right no i i i didn't say that
	there's only one thing i said that i want salvation i think art
	well we were talking about people not of the christian faith and i said there
	may be many times uh... but really there is there there is only one
	It's just that it is possible, and the discussion was centering around whether it's possible for somebody not of The Christian faith, to be saved, to go to heaven as we all would wish, and the answer was yes.
	The answer is yes.
	In the way you live your life.
	Is there a scripture reference that I might look at?
	I beg your pardon?
	Are you basing that on a scripture reference?
	No, I'm not basing it on a scripture reference, because scripture doesn't contain all the truth I need.
	I'm basing it on the teaching of the Church.
	Of the Catholic Church?
	Of the Catholic Church, yes.
	I'm a Catholic priest.
	Right, I just wanted to clarify that.
	I was thrown off and I thought, I mean, I don't mind you believing whatever you want, no problem at all.
	Well, you should.
	You should really mind what I believe.
	I really mind what you believe, too.
	I want you to believe the truth, and you want me to believe the truth.
	Well, I guess maybe I... Well, whatever.
	No, you're not indifferent to my salvation.
	I'm not indifferent to your salvation.
	I want you to be saved, and you want me to be saved.
	Oh, sure.
	Yeah, because hell is a nasty place.
	I can't be feckless and say, oh, do what you like, believe what you like.
	No, no, no, no.
	I want you to believe the truth.
	And I say that with great love.
	Yeah, I didn't want to mislead anybody.
	When I said many paths, I meant for many people around the world, it is possible to achieve salvation without being formally a Christian.
	Thank you.
	Yes.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Yeah.
	I can barely hear you, ma'am.
	Where are you?
	Wisconsin.
	Wisconsin.
	Good.
	Yeah, I was wondering if, you know, if you talk to people about God, All right, if you talk to people about God and they get meaner, or they get angry, what does that mean?
	It does happen all right.
	Sometimes it depends on the person, though.
	Sometimes people may think you're just preaching at them and they get angry.
	They don't want to be preached at.
	Others, because they don't believe in God and they've shooed away from it, they don't want to be reminded of it.
	There can be various reasons why they get mean, and they shouldn't be mean.
	They should not get mean.
	If there is a particularly violent reaction, then it might have more meaning, mightn't it?
	That's right.
	It might have, yes.
	It would, if it is a particularly violent reaction.
	And as a Catholic, I often met that in my youth.
	There was much more prejudice against Catholics.
	I get a very violent reaction from people.
	But people are funny, you know.
	They are.
	There was a TV show named that, I think.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hello, Dr. and Art.
	Yes, where are you, ma'am?
	I'm in Southern California.
	My question is, what are your thoughts about multiple personality disorder?
	MPDs, as we call them.
	I'll tell you, the experience I've had working with psychiatrists is that the cases we've come across, Over 50% are not traditionally called MPDs.
	They are a question of multiple demonic possession.
	And how would that be determined?
	Only by exorcism, by trying exorcism.
	I'll give you one case, a concrete case, and I'll do it fast.
	Okay, it's a woman, grandmother, engaged in certain rites, Satanist rites.
	Affecting the life of her grandchild and her own daughter.
	And doing it in the name of Isabel.
	One of their personalities.
	And then suddenly switching to Hilda.
	And so on.
	Multiple personalities.
	But we decided that it was too Satanist in its tone.
	And we should try exorcism.
	And having tried exorcism, we found that she was possessed.
	She entertained these demons.
	Doctor, is Satanism growing?
	Put it like this.
	The incidence of Satanism, both the clergy and the police find, seems to be on the increase.
	Seems to be.
	It's very hard to know.
	It seems to be.
	Is it that it's becoming more open?
	More flaunting?
	We don't know.
	But certainly, the incidents are much more frequent nowadays.
	And you never know.
	It's very hard to tell.
	You put that together with an 800% increase in the Northeast where you are in exorcisms.
	Yes.
	It does seem there's a special influence.
	Now, I should put it, it's not relevant, but I should tell you the attitude of the Roman Catholic Church for a long time has been that this is especially It's a time of history, especially in which Satan, Lucifer, has special liberty, which will end with the year 2000.
	But it's a part of inner Catholic law, that.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, this is Betty in Kansas City.
	Hello, Betty.
	Hi.
	Doctor, did I not understand you to say earlier in the program That many of the young priests nowadays don't believe in a hell.
	That's right.
	You know, I am the wife of a Baptist preacher.
	Yes.
	And for years now, we have, my husband and I have had the theory that so many times we hear the love of God preached, but there's no, the old-fashioned hellfire and brimstone.
	I know, that's gone.
	Yes.
	That's why we're in such trouble today.
	I know it is.
	I agree with you, ma'am.
	Doctor, it's real, isn't it?
	It's as real as the nose on your face, Art.
	And it's not as beautiful as your nose.
	Just to make a joke to relieve the tension.
	Because I shouldn't be making physical references, but it's an expression in Ireland where I grew up.
	My nose is an open target, don't worry about it.
	No, it's just like a pain in the nose on your face is a famous phrase in Ireland.
	Yes, it's real.
	It's real.
	It's too real for words.
	And it's very, very off-putting.
	I don't want to end up there.
	Well, you know, I've received, I haven't read them all, but I've received a lot of, but not a lot, a few angry, very angry faxes.
	I'm sure you have.
	How dare you aren't expose the audience to this Old-fashioned, uh, about the fear of God, ain't him?
	Hell and fire and brimstone.
	You know, people very angry.
	Oh, they are.
	I know they're very angry.
	And as I say, my reading of the real, really, really, really angry ones is that this disturbs the way of life.
	This manifests a weakness.
	This tells the truth about the way they live, and they don't like to be reminded of it.
	Enough said.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi.
	Martin, hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, sir.
	Where are you?
	Kentucky.
	All right.
	Got one real quick question for Dr. Malachi.
	Would you please make some kind of comment or explanation about the Witch of Endor and Saul and Samuel?
	There's no doubt about it that the function of the Witch of Endor was what we would say as a channeler.
	If you know what channeling is nowadays.
	Oh, yes.
	That's what she was doing.
	And she was used by Satan to give Saul a sense of despair so that he finally did commit suicide the following day, instead of trusting God.
	You speak of channeling.
	There are many means of channeling.
	Isn't the Ouija board just another channeling avenue?
	Of course.
	Of course.
	That's what it is.
	First time calling a line, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Memphis, Tennessee.
	This is Billy.
	Hi, Billy.
	Doctor, I'm calling from Mark 16.
	It's a bit of a familiar passage to you.
	And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
	He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.
	He that believeth not shall be damned.
	That's right.
	And these signs shall follow them that believe.
	In my name shall they cast out devils.
	Yes.
	He just said that the requirement where it's there to believe What do you base your premise on, that you have to be of special authority to cast out devils?
	I'm not saying that you have to be that.
	We've just had a man talking to us about an hour ago who has non-special authority of any church, but he does cast out devils, he says, and there's no reason to disbelieve him.
	And I've known the singular case of one or two men and women Who are able to do it, but they're very rare.
	In my church, the habit has been for a long time, for about 1,400 years, to do it under the authority of a bishop.
	Because the bishop does represent Christ.
	Put it this way, Doctor, as a normal course of events, you would not ask your auto mechanic to perform brain surgery.
	That's right.
	Thank you.
	That's exactly it.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, this is Scott from Wichita.
	I've got a question I'd like to ask the Father there, please.
	The Pope that we have now, is there any comment that he has made on the one that is to be his predecessor?
	In other words, is he uncomfortable with the next Pope?
	I doubt if he knows who the next Pope is, so he couldn't be uncomfortable with him.
	I doubt if he knows who the next Pope is.
	A very good friend of mine here that lives in the same building that I do, we talk about About what you've been talking about this evening, or this morning, rather.
	Yes.
	There is two particular demons that, I don't know what the names of them are, but he has stated that he has seen one that attacked his wife.
	Very quickly, Conor, where?
	In a sexual manner.
	Yes.
	There's one for men and then one for women.
	What are those names, please?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I only know the name of two demons.
	One is Lucifer and the other is Satan.
	They're distinct demons.
	Doctor, we're coming to the end of the program.
	It has been incredible.
	I want to thank you very much for having me.
	I want to thank you very much for being here.
	It has been absolutely incredible and perhaps one day We will do it again.
	If not, this will certainly stand as the definitive program we've ever done on this subject.
	Art, I tell you, all you've got to do is to call me and tell me, and I will come to you.
	I'll do your show again, again and again and again.
	It's so much of a privilege to expect it, but I will do it whenever you ask.
	Thank you, my friend, and have a good rest.
	God bless you.
	Take care.
	Dr. Malachi Martin. I'll tell you this, I'm sure it is a very, very draining experience
	to do an exorcism.
	It's also somewhat draining to talk about it.
	And to grasp, over a period of time, these concepts and ideas.
	Very interesting.
	So I want to thank you all.

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