Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, debunks conspiracy theories about faked moon landings and dismisses exaggerated radiation claims (actual exposure was far below 70,000 REM). He discusses remote viewing’s limits—stable events can be perceived non-locally, but free will prevents deterministic futures. On Earth’s fragility, Mitchell warns against misguided chemical explanations for frog deformities, stressing ozone depletion’s proven threat. Skeptical of humanity’s current trajectory, he hopes science will eventually serve collective harmony over weaponization or exploitation, bridging mysticism and physics in his The Way of the Explorer model. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening.
Good morning, as the case may be, across all these many, many time zones, from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Island chains eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole.
And by the way, we've got one of our listeners that's going right on up to the pole, and he says he'll call us from there.
unidentified
Turn on the radio and show us we actually make it all the way to the pole.
Because of some statements made on this program, which are unfortunately now eerily accurate, we're going to have Major Ed Dames on again tomorrow night.
On my program on May 31st, 1996, Ed Dames said roughly the following.
And this is a quote.
Yes, Art, it's happening.
Our work indicates that, there's an indecipherable section, indicates that shortwave ultraviolet is killing frogs' eggs.
Eggs are laid in shallow parts of the water.
And the ionizing radiation from UVV, the short ultraviolet rays, are beginning to kill, actually first mutating, and then kill frogs' eggs.
That's one thing we're looking at.
Dying human babies, essentially, what it appears to be is allegorically like the planet is administering its own antibiotics, antibiotics to take off something that is ailing its surface.
And that was Ed Dames back on May 31st, way back in the springtime.
And sure enough, we've got an Associated Press story here, as you well know, about frog deformities, all the way to northern Canada, Minnesota, South Dakota, Quebec, Vermont, across a very wide area in some areas that are unable to find frogs that are not deformed.
So with a lot of news tomorrow on the environment, Major Ed Dames.
And I can't tell you that he will tell all of us publicly what he told me privately.
But if he does, it's going to stay on the hair on the back of your neck up.
So, Major Ed Dames, Friday night, Saturday morning here.
You're not going to want to miss that.
And then don't forget, Monday night, Tuesday morning, we're going to have a third party debate between Howard Phillips of the U.S. Taxpayers Party and Harry Brown, the libertarian candidate for president.
and i'll bet you no matter what happens it's going to be a darn sight more interesting than either one of the first two debates that occurred thus far presidential and vice presidential uh... as a matter of fact uh... a bob dole himself suggested that uh... of the vice presidential ball i'll tell you i don't think there's any love lost between camp and all Dole aides were moaning that Kemp didn't even lay a hand on Clinton.
And Ms. Dole said it was like referring to the vice presidential debates.
It was like a fraternity picnic.
So I'm not sure there's any love loss between the two Republican candidates.
As a matter of fact, Bob Dole was speaking publicly earlier in the day, and Kemp ignored him, turned around, began to offer photo ops to people who were behind the speaking candidate.
So, I don't know.
I think our debate is more likely going to be of greater interest.
It will be followed the next day by a C-SPAN debate featuring many of the same candidates.
So, we've got a lot coming up.
In a moment, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut.
On January 31st, 1971, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, then a U.S. Naval Captain, embarked on a journey through outer space of some 500,000 miles that resulted in becoming the sixth man on Earth to walk on the moon.
That historic journey terminated safely nine days later on February 9th, 1971, and was made, of course, in the company of two other men of valor, including Admiral Alan Shepard.
Scientist, naval pilot, naval officer, astronaut, entrepreneur, author, lecturer, Dr. Mitchell's extraordinary and varied career personifies humankind's eternal thrust to widen its horizons as well as explore its inner soul.
I could tell you much about his great education in science background, but I don't think I will.
To do what he did, his qualifications should be obvious.
Dr. Mitchell has said, regarding the moon, quote, suddenly from behind the rim of the moon, in long, slow-motion moments of immense majesty, there emerges a sparkling blue and white jewel, a light, delicate sky-blue sphere laced with slowly swirling veils of white,
rising gradually like a small pearl in a thick sea of black mystery.
It takes more than a moment to fully realize this is Earth home.
He said, we went to the moon as technicians and returned as humanitarians.
Here is all the way from Florida, Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
It certainly is there, though, at about 2.15 or something.
Right.
When we last had you on, and I guess I should state at the beginning of the program, you were examining the materials of Richard Hoagland, and I think you mentioned you were about halfway through them or something.
Well, I've examined quite a few photographs of like 250 or 300 since we last talked.
And so far, I haven't anything to report that would validate what Dick Hoagland's saying.
I'm looking pretty hard, and I've still got a bit more work to do, and I do plan to go to Houston here very shortly and get some new photos from the lunar receiving people there.
When we did the last show, you said something that really, really intrigued me, and I think a lot of other people.
You said that when you sit down and try and recall your feelings when you were on the moon, I can't recall your exact words, but you said it was kind of surreal.
The whole thing was surreal, and the memories of it are kind of strange and fragmented.
Yeah, I had to go back and actually get some help from a friend of mine to redo all that recollection because feelings weren't something I was trained much to bring to the surface, to bring to the conscious awareness.
And that was the beginning of my inner journey after the flight to the moon.
Most of us, however, were well-trained pilots, many of us test pilots.
And we had been in those situations where it was well-trained reflex, good logical thought, learning how to be in those situations and function with a rather cool hand and put the emotions aside.
But that had been through years and years of training, not necessarily for going to the moon.
When a person is on the moon, silly, dumb question, and you look at the Earth, how big is the Earth relative to how big the moon is when we see it full here on Earth?
Yes, we did some work with them earlier this summer and did filming up at the Cape and then here at home and talked about a number of the things that we talked about the last time that I was with you and talked about the new book and how it had come out of that and some of the work since then.
Gee, as a matter of fact, I said just exactly the opposite, that I've had no first-hand experience, but interested in the reports and interested in what evidence we have for having invested.
I think what's quite different today than it's ever been in the past, certainly when we went to the moon, is the notion that there probably is life throughout the universe.
That was not a conclusion that was either in our science or in our theological community 25 years ago, at which point we were still convinced we were the geometric, I mean, the biological center of the universe and alone.
But I don't think many people think that anymore.
The question of have we found each other yet is quite a different question.
And I still maintain that I don't see any smoking gun evidence in the public domain.
I still think there's probably some evidence that is in the private or in the classified domain.
And I've worked with a lot of people trying to bring that out.
All right, CBS Evening News, according to another caller, tomorrow night is going to run a story on a second independent discovery of life on Mars.
I have no idea what it's going to be beyond that, but it's supposed to run on CBS tomorrow night, according to the caller.
And, of course, we have one discovery of biological, the existence of biological life millions of years ago, or even billions, I'm sorry, billions of years ago on Mars.
And there are a lot of people, Doctor, who speculate if there could have been biological life billions of years ago on Mars, then there could have been more.
So far that you can just about see the dot with the arrow pointing at us, and all this mass of white in the center indicating where the real population is.
Yeah, we're way out on the spiral arm of a rather average galaxy, orbiting a rather mundane star, and nothing to really set that off as anything special.
Is it more likely that if we were in the center of that white mass that we would have by now achieved contact, and that because we are way out here in the hinterlands too close, it's probably going to be a little warmer in there.
As a matter of fact, I think I saw a report just recently that there's quite a bit of evidence that there's a massive black hole near the center of our galaxy.
I've never heard anybody talk about it, but is it not reasonable to assume that if we do not breach the speed of light at some point, reaching any other place where there might be sentient life of some sort would take maybe even generations of space travel?
Yeah, if indeed we were really stuck with the speed of light as we understand it today, getting across the galaxy is going to be a rather slow endeavor.
Well, as a matter of fact, the work has been done by a gentleman in Europe and the University in Wales, but a paper has been written on it by Dr. Harold Putoff in Austin.
It's called the Alcubeer Warp Drive.
It's the idea that the speed of light is based upon certain parameters in deep space.
And as we know, the speed of light slows down when it goes through certain matter, like glass or travels through any of the translucent things that we can send light through.
And the question is, can you modify those parameters in deep space in order to have it speed up?
And in principle, the answer is yes.
No one's ever done it yet.
But the idea would be that what they say on Star Trek about getting to warp speeds, I don't know whether you can get to 200 times the speed of light or not.
But in principle, at least, if you change these parameters called E sub 0 and μ sub 0 in deep space, modify them around the spacecraft, then the local speed of light would be greater, and therefore the spacecraft would be going faster without exceeding the speed of light.
From a distance, it would look like it was going faster than the speed of light, but at the spacecraft itself, it would not be.
But in principle, there's nothing wrong with that.
It's a very fine idea, and if it can be done in practice, then it's a practical solution to the speed of light limitation.
But I did want to say what a wonderful response I've had from some of our listeners.
They not only purchased many copies for gifts for their family and friends, but they have also, many of them, have written to me how much they really appreciate the book.
The main gist of where I was heading with that book, it's a result of 25 years of work since the spaceflight, was to find a way to look at our universe, our reality, from both the eyes of a scientist and from the eyes of a mystic.
In other words, try to bring together the basis of our science and the basis of our religion, because as we're well aware, there seems to be some conflict here.
And we seem to have done that.
It has been well received.
The idea is that 400 years ago, the great philosopher René Descartes came to the conclusion that mind and matter were totally separate realms of reality that didn't interact with each other.
And it turns out that's not really true.
That we now understand in this century that we cannot investigate matter without being concerned about the mind that's doing the investigating.
So we're finding ourselves in an interactive system instead of a system that's independent.
And that's quite a different thing than the way we were taught, even when I was going to school.
And much more about mind than we ever have in the past.
And it is interactive.
Where it takes us is that we happen to be in a universe that appears to be self-organizing, intelligent, trial and error, and that's quite different.
The idea that it's just inanimate stuff out there is just not true.
It does happen to be energy, and it does happen to be matter, but it turns out we have to describe it more as thinking matter or aware matter.
And that's an aha.
That's a different thing.
And so the model that I proposed in my book, called a dyadic model, takes account of that and describes it in rather lay terms so that everyone can read it.
The interesting thing is since the book was closed out over a year ago, We have, scientists in Europe have very recently developed both the mathematics, the theory, and the experimental evidence to say that the model is correct.
That we do live in a universe that not only exists, but we know about it, and it's connected through its energy and its information.
And that's a very new discovery.
And I could be very pleased about the fact that here within a year of my suggesting that that's what was going to happen, indeed they have done it and validated the model, or large portions of the model that I suggested in the book.
They caused the person to start for a home, and the moment the person would start for home at a random time, in scientific tests, the dog would go to the door and sit there and wait.
Okay, and that's exactly what we're talking about.
That's called non-locality in scientific terms.
What the physicist would call non-locality, the mystic would call interconnectedness.
And it's exactly what we're talking about.
It is exactly, you're talking about the animal mind.
The only difference in the animal mind and the human mind is that we happen to have language and can have this left portion of our left portion of the brain that we call the thinking linguistic brain that's only evolved here in the last tens of thousands of years that the animal kingdom doesn't have.
But the basic stuff is the same thing.
Let me give you a little aphorism that suggests this.
Science has said our sixth sense, our intuitive sense, really has no basis in physical reality.
It was the first thing nature evolved, the result of non-locality.
And that's exactly what I'm talking about in my book, is that is the basis that nature uses for evolution.
And that is exactly what the recent work has demonstrated, that we have non-locality, or in other words, interconnectedness, and that is the basis for the way nature learned or learns, still learns.
We thought our scientific dogma says that everything's based upon random mutation and natural adaptation.
Nope, sorry.
Nature is learning, and we can now write the equations for how that happened.
I think I mentioned to you the last time we talked that we were very close to writing the equations for how all the psychic stuff worked.
And it exactly demonstrates what we were talking about, of bringing together the physical and the mental, or the physical and the spiritual, whatever words you want to use to approach this with.
And it's now been validated.
And quantum holography is the subject matter that's starting to become rather hot in these very esoteric circles, and which I try to explain in a little more simple lay terms.
All right, when I said lost sense, I didn't mean totally lost, but what I meant was, isn't the modern-day signal-to-noise ratio a little high compared to the spike of that still present sense, but it's repressed.
Well, the way they have worked it in the laboratory right now is primarily with magnetic resonance imaging, MRI faculties.
And that's helping us map the brain in many clinics and many research laboratories.
It's a very practical tool.
But I am thinking in extending it to my own studies in consciousness to say this model that we have previously thought to be the Cartesian or Descartesian model, Cartesian model, where mind and matter were considered to be totally separate, this is demonstrating that's simply not true, that we have to look at our mind and our body as interactive.
In other words, all the psychic stuff is real.
And these are the ways to show it.
For example, the quantum holographic model, we talk about apparitions and some of the spook stories that we talk about.
And that's called the emission reabsorption phenomenon.
It turns out when you examine that very, very closely, as the scientists I'm talking about have done, that it essentially forms a hologram of the object.
In other words, we have holograms associated with us.
And every portion of our body, from the viruses in our body up to the cells, the organs, the arm, the legs, the pieces, the body as a whole, and even within the larger environment, there are holograms within holograms within holograms.
And we all know what holograms are.
You could get a two-dimensional one in every dime store.
Or a three-dimensional one is what the magician uses to cause a tiger to appear on the stage.
And we have three-dimensional holograms associated with every part of ourselves.
And it has some very interesting characteristics.
It is that it's non-local, which is responsible for many of these strange mental effects that we've been looking at for a century and not understood.
And it also carries the entire history of the organism, which explains why folks like Edgar Casey, for example, can tune into someone and pick up their mental and physical history, because it's all there in the hologram.
This program I told you about a little while ago with animals, it showed absolutely dogs, for example, that were able to identify cancerous skin cells.
Then, to lay it out scientifically, they put many, many test tubes in a line, many with normal cells, and just a few with cancerous cells.
And I'll be dogged, no pun intended, if that dog didn't go to each one of the cancerous cells and identify it, or vials holding the cancerous cells.
A young lady who was having seizures, she would have seizures, you know, every few days or every few weeks.
And they trained a dog to be with this young lady, and for fully Dr. 30 minutes prior to a seizure, this dog would lay across her and wouldn't let her get up.
All of these types of things are becoming, those were anecdotal stories in the past.
We're starting to get a real handle on how this non-local interconnectedness works, not only for ourselves, but in between species.
There's very little difference in the way the dog's inner mental mechanism works than our own, except ours is a little more evolved and more sophisticated.
Well, that's the reason I was saying earlier that this, what we used to call the sixth sense, I prefer to call the first sense, because that is the most fundamental thing, and that's what the dogs are using here.
The evidence has been in the literature for several decades.
The problem has been no theoretical structure within physics and chemistry that would allow us to explain it within the normal scientific lingo.
Now, quantum holography looks like it is providing that approach that gives us a good, testable, hard-nosed scientific theory with which to discuss these things, which is what I've been working on for 25 years, which my Way of the Explorer is all about, anyhow.
That experience level, in the terms of the model I'm talking about, the answer is the experience or the information about this light experience is retained.
Now, if you want to call out a soul, the answer is yes.
It doesn't quite have all the attributes that some would like to attach to the soul, and that's a little different subject matter we can talk about.
But if we consider that the experience of this lifetime is not lost, the answer is yes.
That is exactly what the implication of all of this work that I'm talking about.
That's what it's about.
We're approaching it from a slightly different angle than the traditional angle, but the answers come out quite similar to what the traditional answers are.
Do you think that the thousands and even tens or hundreds of thousands of similar reports of what is experienced at that moment, what do they say to you?
You know, the white light, the tunnel, all that stuff?
Well, we have to take each one of those by itself, but the sum total is that this experience is very meaningful to people in terms of the near-death experience.
It sets people on a different path.
It gives them a different set of values to come back and go to work and live life differently.
And I've talked to people like Daniel Brinkley, very, very interesting guy, who, by his own admission, was a really bad kind of guy in his early life, had this experience.
In the last two months, there have been a number of papers given, particularly at conferences in Europe, that have been attended by both cosmologists and some Nobel laureates in physics, in which these things have been discussed.
And I'm staying contact with the folks over there, because we're in dialogue all the time.
So it is the information that finding its way into the science literature.
Unfortunately, for most of our listeners, that in the literature means very highly mathematical papers and learned journals.
And what we're talking about is trying to bring it down to our everyday level of conversation and putting aside the mathematics and making it work for us in our daily lives.
If you had been talking about this, Doctor, back prior to the moon mission that you went on, Paul 14 mission, they probably never would have let you step foot on that spacecraft, would they?
Probably if we were talking too loudly about it, that's quite true.
Although my interests do go back that far, you know, the work of many of the, quote, parapsychologists, and I don't like to use that word anymore, but go back to the 1930s and even some into the previous century, very eminent people who quite often lost their reputations because of delving into these areas.
But it turns out they've been right all along.
We now do have a physical basis for all this to take place.
You said on, and I'm quoting here, on the return trip home to Earth from the moon, gazing through 240,000 miles of space toward the stars and the planet from which I had come, I suddenly experienced the universe as intelligent, loving, harmonious.
Exactly where I started to put it on the front burner and start to think about these issues very strongly.
You just can't look at Earth from space in the midst of the cosmos and recognize what we are from that perspective without asking some pretty deep questions.
As a matter of fact, there's a lot of similarities between what we call a near-death experience and what I later learned to call my own experience, which is called a samadhi experience in the mystical literature of the Eastern philosophic traditions.
What do you know of the other astronauts who made, or even today's modern astronauts, but Neil Armstrong and others have made many interesting statements that seem to suggest Neil Armstrong in the White House,
for example, that there are, and I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but it's quite famous by now, about lifting veils from truth or falsehood and realizing truths, and we have places to go that you can barely imagine.
In other words, the astronauts who went to the moon, as you did, what do you know about their experiences?
Well, many of them, particularly those who had the opportunity on the way home, like myself, whose job was completed with the lunar surface activity, that was our job, lunar module pilot, that was our job, was to be responsible for the lunar surface work.
So on the way home, we were systems engineers, as it were, with an operating spacecraft and not much to do except be contemplative and look out the window and think about things.
If you look at the book, The Home Planet, that astronauts and cosmonauts published 10 years ago, was on the bestseller list for many, many weeks, it shows that subtler side.
Everyone that looks at Earth and sees it tends to become very possessive of our environment, of our making this place work.
Minister Fuller said it correctly.
We're the crew of spaceship Earth, and quite often we're in disharmony and mutiny, and we can't really afford that.
There is an Associated Press story which I read you prior to the beginning of the show this morning, this crazy thing about frogs, deformities being found everywhere.
In areas of Minnesota, for example, they can't find any wetlands without deformities, right?
And this is scaring the tar out of a lot of people.
Let's see, David Hopp, who is a state finance team of scientists researching the problem of the frog, said, quote, there's a reasonable assumption that if there's an external substance influencing amphibian development, it could influence human development as well.
Well, we are, in the U.S., a very small part of the world's population, and we consume a very large part of its resources.
As other nations industrialize and want what we've got, and that's a process that is occurring, and population increases, I don't see how we can begin to move in the direction that you're talking about because other nations are going to be as we have been.
I see, well, a study that my own institute made in the last two years shows what we call the cultural creatives, which are the people that have the awareness we're talking about right now, have increased from 2% to approaching 25% in the last 25 years.
So in the industrial world, we have a large cadre of people who are now becoming very, very aware of the issues.
And when people become aware, that's the first step to taking corrective action.
So I'm very hopeful.
I'm hopeful that the more we increase our awareness, our environmental concerns, our sense of connectedness here, and recognize that we have the capability to do something about it and the responsibility to do something about it, if we want our civilization to survive, we will do something about it.
In many ways, the old ways have to become the new ways.
And what that means is getting back in tune with process, getting in balance with the basic processes of nature, which means you have to understand them.
And the ancients, even though they might not have had the delicious science that we have today, did understand it in their own terms and did practice it.
I mean, microwave technology is just an extension of what we do every day here.
I don't know all the details of the experiments that are going on at either the military or certainly even in NASA circles as far as microwave technology is concerned.
There was a science fiction book written called Sunstroke.
I don't know if you ever had a chance to read it.
It was simple.
It theorized gathering energy in space in Earth orbit, in geosynchronous Earth orbit from the sun, converting that energy to electricity, and then transmitting it to Earth via microwave.
It has overwhelmed me because I've had thoughts about what he has documented since I was seven years old.
I've passed his order address on to friends who are in Vensa.
They're now being overwhelmed and thrilled as well.
Bottom line, from my standpoint, if every citizen of the world could read this work or hear it on tape, it might revolutionize how humans relate to each other and the earth.
This book could be the key that opens the road to true peace among mankind.
By the way, I wrote this before you two began talking about it on the air.
Grin.
Please ask Dr. Mitchell if he'll be doing any public signings or lectures in Southern California.
Pretty pleased.
Yes, we'll do that in a moment.
But that is the book that Dr. Mitchell is offering to personally autograph for you, I guess, in that way.
All right, well, here comes one that is inevitable, so I'll just hit you with it.
Dear Art, does your guest, Dr. Mitchell, still maintain that he saw nothing on the moon or near the moon that would be unusual to the average person specifically pertaining to something made by intelligence other than humans from earth?
Here is another area, a very interesting area, and I think it winds right into what we've been talking about.
I began getting all these reports on the air, Doctor, about people having episodes of sleep paralysis.
That weird kind of thing that you get, or some people seem to get, in a twilight zone between sleep and wakefulness, or even in full wakefulness, in which they can't move a bone.
They can't move anything in their body.
And people like me, who are control freaks, fight it.
I don't like it.
I fight it, and so I come out of it.
Now, other people have said, don't fight it, go with it, and you can actually have an out-of-body experience.
It's nature's way of keeping us from hurting ourselves when we're asleep.
If the body doesn't really know the difference, if the mind is telling you to do flip-flops, and it so happens that you're in the sleeping state, your body would tend to go ahead and do flip-flops, and you could hurt yourself.
So that's nature's way of keeping us safe.
But yes, it does have some strange effects around the periphery of it as you're half-awake or in a lucid dream state or whatever, where you can start to control the dream.
That sleep paralysis shouldn't get in your way, but perhaps it does for some people.
I'm not an expert on it, by the way, but I do know that we all experience that.
But it seems to be the basis of this interconnectedness that we talk about.
It's a little early to say, but I was talking with my colleagues in Europe just a few weeks ago as we were looking at this quantum holographic notion we're dealing with and its non-local implications.
It would seem that there is some reason to believe we could say, beam me somewhere, Scotty, and in the mental way that it can be real.
And real and physical.
We're not talking about just informational here.
The type of thing called remote viewing is so easily explained with this quantum holographic notion.
And it would appear that quite possibly some of the telekinetic or psychokinetic effects are also amenable to explanation with this approach.
Now, how far we can go with that, I don't know yet.
It's too soon to tell.
But I have seen many people, like the Uri Gellers of the world or the Norbu Chins, whom I cite in my book, be able to move telekinetically small objects.
We've documented it where, for example, let's go to children because they're more credible.
All right.
Scientists, following some of the exotic stuff that Uri Geller, for example, purported to do, then we work with children and see if they can do it.
And the answer is yes.
I have seen many times where matter, presumably sealed in a sealed container, has been able to be brought out of that container.
It's as though it goes right through the pores or right through the interstitial space.
And physicists both here and in Europe and in the Soviet Union, in England and the Soviet Union, were doing this sort of work 27 years ago and observing positive effects.
And it's only when we start to understand this non-locality we're talking about do we have the remotest chance of being able to explain it to what happens?
As a matter of fact, my colleague Hal Putoff, when we were doing the work back at Stanford Research Institute 27 years ago, was simultaneously working under classified programs for the CIA, which have now been declassified.
And he's just this year written a number of reports, which I have right here in my office, on that work that was going on at the same time we were working on non-classified programs.
We've been working with these types of systems and models for over 25 years now.
And now we think we're getting the sort of physical explanation within good physical science that helped us understand it in ways we've never understood it before.
And explain it in ways we've been able to explain it before.
A process of evolution, yes, of continuous change, and it seems continuous learning.
And in this model, we can say if we are a learning organism, if animals are learning organisms, and we're in nature, nature produced us, then nature is a learning organism also.
Where I think we're going is a better integration of our intellectual and our right hemisphere, or in other words, our left and right hemispheric function.
Nature is intelligent, and that means managing information.
We're learning to manage information much better, much more effectively, much more efficiently.
And it's interesting that our brain is the only organ of the body that nature apparently overengineered from our point of view at the moment.
We can do a lot more than we have done with the mental machinery we have.
Would you think that it would be possible that a being could exist that would not be in the physical, that there could be an entity or an existence of a sentient being of some sort that did not possess a physical form?
Well, this is the great question, Art, and the whole issue between our current models in mysticism and religion and our versions in science.
The model that I present in the way of the Explorer is to say, no, we need the physical body.
Or if we didn't need it, nature, why would nature have evolved it?
Now, that's not the final definitive answer.
We're still searching for this because our mystical systems think that, quote, what we are essentially, our spiritual self, can exist separately the physical body.
We haven't found a way for that to happen yet.
That doesn't mean it can't, but it just means the model that we're using right now, or that I'm using, says mind and matter are a part of the same structure, and they need each other.
then that particular dieting model what do you make of all the ufo sightings all the reports of uh...
i'll tell you something interesting that i've got away And I don't want to name the scientists yet, but a very prominent scientist doctor who removed a number of implants surgically from human beings and did electron microscope photography of them.
And believe it or not, I've got these photographs on the way to me.
A name you would know immediately, but I don't want to give out on the air until I know I can.
I'm about to get these photographs.
Now, this begins to be physical evidence.
Plus, I've got some parts, some materials that were sent to me, doctor, that purport to have been from the crash at Roswell, composed of magnesium and bismuth with a small amount of zinc in it.
And these are rather anomalous and seem to suggest the possibility of anti-gravitic properties.
And we're doing a lot of tests.
But what I'm saying is there's a lot of physical evidence that surrounds this UFO business right now.
And it's not that people aren't validly reporting what they think they see, but the collective unconscious, if you will, is starting to accept these ideas now.
And so people will interpret even bad dreams, for example, as a UFO encounter.
That's what I mean.
There's some really good solid stuff surrounded by a lot of stuff that's not quite so solid.
The only thing that I know, and then I'll let you give your solid.
And I hate to tell the story again, but I'm going to very quickly.
About two years ago on my way home from Las Vegas to here in about a little perump where I live, which, by the way, is not far from the test area, my wife and I were in the car together.
She turned around, and she said, what the hell is that?
And so she said, stop the car.
So I stopped the car, and it was late at night.
We're in the desert.
There's hardly anything out here.
It's very sparsely populated.
We got out of the car, and here coming up from behind us, at about 150 feet in altitude, I would guess, is this large, very large, triangular craft.
It was nearly a full moon night, Doctor.
You could hear crickets at a quarter mile.
I mean, there was no noise at all.
And it had two white lights on the back part of the triangle and a strobing or red lights and a strobing white light in the front part of the triangle.
And it flew.
No, it didn't fly.
I was in the Air Force.
I know what aerodynamic flight takes.
This floated without sound directly over our heads at 150 feet.
I mean, blocking out the moon, blocking out the stars, and just kept floating right across the valley out toward the west and slightly to the north, west.
And we stood there and watched it float out across the entire valley.
About a week later, a number of people had seen it.
Not just the two of us, but a number of people here in the valley had seen it.
The local newspaper ran a story saying it was a C-130 on a secret mission from Nellis.
Well, Doctor, I flew C-130s, and at 150 feet, they'd rattle your bones.
This was no C-130.
I don't know what it was.
I'm not saying it was extraterrestrial, but I'm telling you, it wasn't flying.
It was floating, and I don't know of any technology that allows that.
I've talked with a lot of people, and the investigators I work with, I've talked with a lot of people, have had very similar experiences in the same area.
And if I had good, solid first-hand information, I would be glad to tell it.
The only thing I can't talk about is that we are doing some work that's private at the moment that hopefully will bear fruit, and then we can talk about it.
One of the photos, AS16-107-17446, which of course is referenced differently now in the archives if one individually was to go find them, it's a bit more of a task.
I guess I usually start here with people, something visual.
One of the rocks in the photo has a capital C stamped on it.
Essentially, it's a flap rock, which is a rock used in stage propping.
First of all, you sparked my interest because I have had some interest in writing role-playing games, which are kind of like a novel that people would be involved in in a fantasy type way.
And one of the premises was that science would catch up to a point where they could prove that mystic theories were true in a lot of ways.
Now, the problem in this fantasy realm was that we had scientists traipsing in places they were not prepared to go as far as their personal maturity.
And it seems that we're sort of on the edge of that right now with some of your theories.
And I was curious, if there were two paths to take to some of these mystic revelations.
You know, there is no exact path to get into the inner experience.
We all have an inner experience.
We're all there.
It's just a matter of how do you develop it.
And there's lots of different approaches.
Each one of our great religious traditions has an inner core of mystical experience that the inner group follows.
unidentified
Yes, and I had seen some things on the remote viewers, and that's sort of what sparked my question was it sounded as though some of those people were very traumatized by what they experienced.
And I wondered if it's because science had given them information that their maturity level was not prepared to deal with.
And I wondered what your opinion is on those types of things.
Well, whenever we have our belief systems and they get very rigid, we get a little bit shocked when we find things aren't true that we believed in.
We're in an evolving species.
Our knowledge base is accumulating.
We're learning more continuously.
But it tends to be comfortable for us, like the people who don't believe that we went to the moon.
It's comfortable to believe in old ways, like an old shoe that fits well.
And it gets a little traumatic sometimes when we have to put on a new pair of shoes, or as the story goes, when the emperor gets new clothes that aren't new clothes at all, it shakes us up a little bit.
Two weeks before it happened, one of my employees went to Europe, and I have come up with premonition of this in the past.
He asked me if I had any premonition.
I told him, on the day you return, I see a 747 breaking up over the Atlantic.
I was actually placed on that plane for about 10 to 12 seconds where I saw it starting to break up.
I predicted the interior color of the plane, the direction the plane was headed, the evening, and to give you an idea that I am not really off the wall, I actually called the local office of the FBI knowing that they have caller ID and knowing who that I am.
And I came to work the next day and people were stunned.
The future is not really predictable, except we do have a lot of stable processes or events in progress that are knowable non-locally, and that's what remote viewing is.
So if the gentleman checks out and everything is valid to what he's saying, it's because whatever took place that caused that was already in motion.
There was already in place.
Somebody just didn't know about it.
It wasn't that it suddenly happened in a spontaneous, unknown way.
It was that the process already was in motion.
Just like, for example, the stable process of the Earth going around the Sun, we can predict that for centuries in advance.
But processes like eggs falling off a table and glasses of milk spilling are irreversible processes and not knowable.
One can alter the future, whether you can view it or not.
That is exactly what I talk about in the way of Explorer, is that you can't have a mechanistic determinism and determine the future and have freedom of choice or creativity simultaneously.
Those are mutually exclusive things.
But when we seem to be creative and the future is not determinable, but it is created, or we can create the future.
We can influence the processes to a certain extent.
That's what the point I try to make in the way of Explorer.
Because one time I took a hop on a C-130 from Arizona up to New Jersey in the Air Force, and we were going through a succession of weather fronts, and I sat behind the pilot and I watched the altimeter, you know, 12,000, 11,500, 12,000, 12,500.
I mean, we were all over the place.
And I started to get sick, and I spent the rest of that hop, thank you, back in the can, filling it constantly.
Well, it's happened, but you eventually learned once you've heaved everything you have inside of you, well, then it's over with, and you have to come out of it.
So much so that it would throw a lot of paradigms into very serious question.
And let me get away from that and just read you something somebody has just sent.
Then we'll get back to the phones.
It says, Art Wonderful Show, Monday, I believe you mentioned that we may not be as ready to accept life on other planets as we think.
I agree.
I work at NASA Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley in California.
The recent suggestion that scientists may have found possible evidence of something like life in a meteorite that could have come from Mars has stirred up more than a few people around here.
It seems easier for people to believe NASA made it up to save themselves from deeper budget cuts than life existing elsewhere in the universe.
These are people who prior to the announcement had said that they believed it was likely life exists elsewhere.
If these people were faced with contact from a civilization, from another planet, they would be in deep shock, as I think I would be as well.
Do you really think we're ready for that kind of information, Doctor?
There may be some individuals who aren't in touch with their deeper reality, but I think we've been preparing ourselves for this for 50 years or more.
And we're just going to get used to it.
Yes, the likelihood is there's life throughout the rest of the universe.
And just because we're only freshly out of the trees a few tens of thousands of years ago, notwithstanding, it's likely true that the processes that brought us into being brought life into being and intelligent life into being throughout the known universe.
We still transmit in AM, FM, VHF, UHF, but the day is clearly coming, Doctor, when that may no longer be true.
And terrestrial television and radio will be a thing of the past, replaced by newer technologies that we see already today.
So I guess what I'm saying is mankind, humankind's period of transmission of the kind of messages that we are looking for from other places may be very transitory indeed.
I mean, covering only a very short span of years.
So are we looking in the right way in the right places for life elsewhere?
Isn't it presumptuous to assume that we're going to get the equivalent of I Love Lucy sailing our way?
Yeah, I don't think that's probably the most viable way to do it.
All these listening stations is one way.
I mean, there is electromagnetic noise out there, certainly.
Whether it's powerful enough to get to us in the form that listening arrays are tuned to, I don't know.
It's one way, but I think we're going to really come in contact with each other.
I think just like the evidence, sketchy that it is about alien contact right now, I don't think can be dismissed, and that's a part of this preparation for acknowledging we're just a small part of a larger universe.
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, do you think it more likely eventual contact will occur as a result of some mechanical reception of a signal, or more likely through a realization and development of the kind of paradigm that you've been talking about?
I'm the one that had the aha experience on the shore at Jackson Lake, where you were talking about the synchronicity of the whole thought processes in the universe type thing.
And would it be fair to say that you could consider just the universe as a whole as one sentient being?
Well, I mean, if you look at everything being interconnected, the conscious consciousness as well as matter, I don't know, could you, you know, for me, it makes sense just to extend it all the way out.
And this question is with regard to the speed of light.
Last year my son was interested in developing a science fair project having to do with affecting the speed of light.
And in his industrial tech R ⁇ D class he built a device where he sent a laser beam through a perpendicular cross-sectional, I'm reading what he wrote, electromagnetic field.
And he got a change in the light meter measuring device.
And when he took his data to several university physics professors, he was told it was not possible to augment the speed of light because electromagnetic fields only worked on charged particles and photons were not charged particles.
Earlier when you were on an OART show several months ago, you made a comment that you didn't think we were ready to try to go back to the moon again or to go to Mars.
And my concern with your response was that even though we have problems now here on Earth, we can't stop exploring because that's the nature of humanity.
Heart of the Matter00:10:05
unidentified
And the artist can't stop painting, and the musician can't stop composing music to realize problems here on Earth.
When I said that, I was talking about the next 5, 10, 15 years.
Certainly in the next, in this coming century, which I consider peanuts as far as scale size is concerned, I'm sure we will.
It's just a matter of the issues confronting us right at this very moment that seemed to be demanding the political and economic will of civilization just to stay alive.
And we don't see real leadership on that on the global scale at the moment.
That's why many of us, after going into space, said if we could get our political leadership, our leadership in general, just to see Earth from space, we might have a whole different civilization here.
Doctor, I look at the present coming back to our country political race, and I have never been more discouraged and disconnected than I am watching this present political race.
It had occurred about two hours earlier when we noticed a flickering abort light, which turned out to be a solder ball floating around in a switch that was intermittently shorting that circuit out.
And it meant that had we started down and ignited our engine on the way down to the moon without correcting that, it would have immediately turned us around and started us back toward the command module again, aborted emission.
So, in other words, even that the solder ball, just a piece of solder from the work somebody had been doing, shorting across that, would it really have done that?
Was there, you know, in the beginning, I guess we had no idea.
We thought there might have been a lot of dust on the moon and that the lunar lander might have just sort of gone sinking into the dust like you would quicksand, never to be seen again.
Now, not as much worry, obviously, after the first mission, but could you really know that the consistency of the moon was similar everywhere?
And was there any worry that when you landed, you might just sort of keep going?
During the newscast we just had at the top of the hour, they talked about a proud new Cray computer that's just been designed and is being delivered, I forget where they're kind of gone or somewhere.
And there, this proud new Cray will sit and think, advisedly, I use that word, about whether or not our nuclear weapons are safe.
Do you think there will come the day, Doctor, when we will devise some computer that is so fast with so much storage that it will literally break across some sort of barrier and become sentient?
As a matter of fact, I'm predicting that someone is going to get the Nobel Prize in Consciousness Studies for this very work we're discussing sometime in the next decade or so.
Dr. Mitchell, I was very interested in your comments about the environment, and I wondered if you're familiar with the field of industrial ecology, and if so, how you felt about it.
Oh, I don't know that there's any in that area with quantum holography at the moment.
It's still pretty new.
But I've proposed quite a number of potential PhD theses in my book.
I mean, they're there, kind of buried.
And some of it could be on animal studies, although I like to do animal studies in a safe, non-destructive, or non-harmful way, since I kind of like the little critters myself.
You've been talking about creating the future, Doctor.
Wouldn't you agree that if you are the creator of your own destiny, your own future, then knowing that in order to create anything into the physical plane, some sort of energy must be present.
That energy then must be thought.
Some believe that you will get what you say, and religious people pray for something to be made manifest into the physical plane.
Nothing can be created without an energy source, and prayer and words all begin with thought.
So there must be energy in thought, and that energy creates.
We were talking earlier, Art, about all matter having little energy fluctuations that come in and out of it.
The plenum into which that happens is the zero-point energy field, and it's called zero-point energy.
Technically, it is the quantum fluctuations that remain when matter is reduced to zero degrees Kelvin, or absolute zero.
Or another way to say it, it's the energy fluctuations that take place in deep space where there is no matter evident.
It's still quantum fluctuations.
That is called zero-point energy.
And presumably, it is the plenum of energy that, for one reason or another, became coherent and created the Big Bang from which all matter has subsequently existed.
So if you do get out there and happen to see one, I'd be interested in your report.
unidentified
Yeah, I'll take a couple pictures if I could.
Please.
All right.
Well, in a few short moments that I've been exposed to, Dr. Mitchell, I have drawn some parallels with some other people's work like Deepak Chopra and Carlos Castaneda and how the universe is all interconnected.
Now, I was just wondering if there is a point where science will not be able to catch up to it and there's the unknowable where nothing could be explained.
And they sent up female frogs and impregnated them with the male, or impregnated the eggs with the male sperm in zero gravity to see whether they would develop into normal frogs, knowing that those amphibians were particularly vulnerable to changes in conditions.
Well, what's interesting is that what's interesting is that the first layer of cells was completely scrambled.
But by the time the third layer had been laid down, they had righted and readjusted themselves, and they had perfectly normal frogs that came out of those tadpoles and they one leap carried them a mile while they were floating in zero gravity.
But what it is showing is the amazing adaptability of life.
When we went into space, initially the pundits were saying we can't survive in space.
Just like when we invented the automobile, you can't go that fast or the airplane.
You'll surely die.
The initial assessment was humans will surely die if you go into spaceflight.
But we didn't.
The body starts to adapt virtually immediately.
And that's what's amazing about it.
It bears right on what we were talking about.
unidentified
Yeah, al although it it seems to it doesn't seem to happen on Earth if if we're getting all these deformities, it looks as if the external circumstances are too grave.
And I'm sorry, but anyway, Dr. Mitchell, I'd like to ask you, and excuse me if you've already answered this question before, but the last time I heard from you, you were on with Richard Hoagland, And that you were discussing between the two of you, the like the, I guess you call it like the ether above the moon.
The fact is I have been continuing the look into what into Hoagland's claims and I've looked at a large number of photos in the last several months.
I don't spend a great deal of time at it, but I've come to nothing that supports his position, although I am going to Houston in the next month or so and I'm going to get to the lab and look at a lot more photographs and then maybe I can have something definitive.
Well, I don't know that we're going to be doing it with land exploration in the near future.
I'm hoping that we will certainly do at least robotic exploration in the not too distant future.
What we'll find remains to be seen.
I think first of all, we're mentioning Hoagland.
One of the things that needs to be looked at is this whole Sidonia area, which at the moment only has abnormalities, scientific abnormalities as far as the structure is concerned.
That can't be answered without looking, and you can't really confirm this recent claim of life forms on Mars without getting more data also.
And there's Thomas Gold just recently made the comment that if we send humans up, we will probably destroy whatever subtle evidence is there.
It's almost impossible to send humans without some contamination, which is true.
Because if that recent find on the Antarctic billions of years or millions of years old specimen is valid, it's very, very subtle, very, very primitive, and needs to be handled with great care.
Sooner or later, however, we will send humans there, I'm sure.
Well, I think there's nothing wrong with surveillance in near-Earth orbit.
We still have crazies around the world that we need to keep tabs on.
What I object to enormously is active weaponry in space, particularly the sort of exotic weaponry that was anticipated by the Star Wars or SDI scenarios.
Space is far too sensitive environmentally.
You get floating objects floating around, junk in space, and it's not going anywhere except to clutter up space forever.
And we can't afford that.
The first Star Wars scenario is the last one because it's too environmentally sensitive.
But and people do have very strange takes on things like that.
The one thing that I'm not about to accept, however, is that my own experience of having been to the moon is going to be challenged or disproved by citing me scientific evidence, quote, unquote.
And I was listening about this frog stuff the last couple of nights, and the word I heard was that it's probably, well, actually has nothing to do with the ozone or radiation from the sun, but it's chemical.
Well, actually, sir, they have no idea is the truth.
unidentified
Right.
Well, they have a pretty good idea because there's chemicals they use for spraying the trees for the moths and also spraying the swamps where the frogs are at for mosquitoes.
Well, ma'am, I didn't even begin talking about it until Ted Coppel had done a show on Nightline, which was really the first news of an official government program that had been running for 20 years, financed for 20 years.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Call the wildcard lines, area 702-727-1295.
Now, Eric, we're going to have to start all over again.
We have one rule on the program, and that is you cannot use your last name.
Let's start again.
Eric, where are you calling from?
unidentified
I'm calling from the Oregon-California border in an 18-wheeler.
Listening to the show and really appreciating what I'm hearing.
And my question, basically, I wanted to say that I believed in what Mr. Mitchell has been talking about and felt that strongly throughout my life.
And I've seen, you know, the prejudice and religious and cultural and community, social prejudice that they kind of add a static that makes it so you can't get to that connectedness, the interconnectedness.
There's always the present, the opportunity to use your knowledge and your power and your capability for selfish, self-serving purposes as opposed to the greater good.
I'm hoping that we start to learn to use things for the greater good and recognize that we don't need to be so selfish, egocentric, materialistic as we have tended to be in the past.
Tomorrow night, we've got yet another hour to go, but tomorrow night I want to remind my audience, Major Ed Dames is going to be here.
And I'll give you a bit of a primer for that when we come back after the top of the hour, because it is going to be a very sobering visit tomorrow night for Major Dames.
We're going to talk a great deal tomorrow night about the ecology, about our ecology, and about what's in our rather immediate future, and it's not necessarily at all good.
In a lot of ways, what you've heard tonight is a pretty good setup for what's going to occur tomorrow night.