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July 29, 1996 - Art Bell
02:55:58
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John 'Crunchman' Draper - Captain Crunch - Telephone Hacking
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a
art bell
01:01:29
j
john captain crunch draper
01:09:28
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unidentified
WWTN, Manchester, Nashville.
We'll be right back.
You're listening to the best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
Tonight, it's Art's interview with Captain Crunch, the telephone hacker.
Now, back to the best of Art Bell.
Art Bell.
art bell
I've got him.
I will not give you his real name unless he says we can do it, but this man is a legend in his own time, literally.
Not his own mind, his own time.
He's actually become a legend.
I interviewed, we'll have to talk about how long ago it was, Captain Crunch.
Now, many of you, many of you who hate the phone company, stick around.
You're about to have a good time.
This man's story is legendary to those old enough to remember it.
For the rest of you, you're in for a treat.
Captain Crunch is coming up.
And now, to a payphone in the wilderness we go.
That's where he is.
Payphone in the wilderness, I think.
This is...
Captain Crunch, are you there?
john captain crunch draper
Uh, yeah.
Do you hear me okay?
art bell
I do, as a matter of fact.
Captain, can we utter or should we not utter your real name?
john captain crunch draper
I don't care.
It's John Draper.
art bell
John Draper.
John Draper the Infamous.
Well, John, a lot of the audience here is young, and they will not remember you, nor will they know you from coast to coast.
John, let me first ask you, how long ago was it that I interviewed you in, I think it was Monterey, wasn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, is that where you interviewed me?
Don't you remember that?
I remember that, yeah.
art bell
Okay, that was...
john captain crunch draper
Remember when we...
art bell
Yes, I do.
Let's not talk about that, John.
How long ago?
That was like, I'm guessing.
Oh, man.
john captain crunch draper
It was a long time ago.
art bell
Oh, man.
John, we're getting old.
john captain crunch draper
I don't really feel old.
art bell
Well, I bet.
Do you look old?
Yeah, I'm not either.
John, I'm not either.
I'm still, there's more kid in me than I would want to admit.
It's just thinking about that many years ago we did the interview.
Anyway, we need to begin at the beginning, and I know you told the story a gazillion times to a gazillion people, but there are a gazillion people here now.
And so, why are you called, this is a good way to begin, why are you called Captain Crunch?
john captain crunch draper
Well, Captain Crunch, of course, came from the Captain Crunch cereal.
And back in those days, there was a toy whistle that came in the Captain Crunch cereal box.
art bell
I remember stuff in cereal.
I used to empty out entire boxes of cereal like all kids did to get down to the good stuff, you know, the prize.
unidentified
Right.
art bell
And that they were giving away a whistle?
john captain crunch draper
Uh, yeah, and uh apparently if you glue one of the holes up in the whistle and blow the whistle, it's uh it the pitch is 2,600 hertz, and that's the signal used by the phone company to disconnect a long-distance call.
art bell
Disconnect it?
john captain crunch draper
To disconnect it, yeah.
art bell
Um to disconnect it.
So you glued up now, see I didn't remember that part.
You glued up one little hole and that produced a 2,600 hertz tone, and that would disconnect a long distance call.
unidentified
Correct.
art bell
Okay, so but what good does that do you?
You whistle, you're talking to somebody long distance, and you whistle, and it disconnects, and then you're disconnected.
john captain crunch draper
Right, but but the beauty of it is after you're disconnected, it it leaves you on a trunk.
The same kind of trunk that operators use.
art bell
A trunk.
john captain crunch draper
Right.
art bell
Is that...
A big open party line.
john captain crunch draper
Not a party line, just an open line that it would be it would behave very similar to what an operator's console would be.
art bell
See, now I don't know.
I've never been an operator.
So do you hear a dial tone or what are you left with?
john captain crunch draper
No, you're just left with a silent nothingness.
It's just there.
And what you do is if you wanted to dial three, you'd pulse the whistle three times.
And if you wanted to dial one, you'd pulse it once.
unidentified
And then if you dial five, you'd pulse it five times.
john captain crunch draper
And you'd eventually dial a number that way.
Any number.
Any long distance number.
unidentified
Really.
john captain crunch draper
With area code first.
art bell
With area code first.
john captain crunch draper
You wouldn't have to dial the one, though.
art bell
No one first.
Just the area code number?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
And it would reconnect you to another number.
art bell
Cool.
Really cool.
I don't know why people think it's cool to cheat the phone company, except that the phone company...
They provided me with the first ever international toll-free 800 number.
So it should be, please bear in mind, everybody, that what John is explaining and what he did, the well, you did go to jail, didn't you?
unidentified
Yeah, I was eventually caught.
art bell
Caught and went to jail, yeah.
Anyway, I was going to say the statute of limitations is far gone on this, but it doesn't matter.
You have paid your debt to society, right, John?
john captain crunch draper
Right, and I've told my story through my website.
art bell
Oh, and oh, I meant to say my website was down, but I understand it is only down through AOL.
Any other person can access it, and I suppose AOL will get it fixed shortly.
In the meantime, if you will give me your website, My webmaster, Keith, will put in a link to yours.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
art bell
So let me hear what your URL is.
It's not too long, is it?
john captain crunch draper
No.
art bell
All right, let's hear it.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, it's usual http://slash that you always get.
art bell
Right.
john captain crunch draper
And a www.well, like W-E-L-L, dot com, C-O-M, a forward slash user, U-S-E-R, another forward slash, and crunch, C-R-U-N-C-H.
And my email address is crunch at well.com.
art bell
All right, that's www.well, W-E-L-L, dot com, forward slash user, forward slash crunch.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
I've got my whole story up there.
art bell
All right.
Are there any photographs up there for people?
john captain crunch draper
Plenty of them.
Oh, there are.
art bell
So, anyway, you found out all of this about this silly little whistle, and then what did you do with that information, John?
john captain crunch draper
Well, soon after I discovered the whistle, or other people turned me on to the whistle, the phone company was slowly switching their equipment to accept what are called multi-frequency tones.
The whistle, when I used it to pulse a long-distance call, that was called a single-frequency tone.
It was just a single 2,600 hertz.
Later on, the phone company decided to use multi-frequency tones, either combinations of tone pairs.
art bell
Now, when you press a button on a modern touch tone phone, you hear a dual tone, right?
john captain crunch draper
Correct, but those tones on a touch tone dial are different than the tones used in the internal switching.
art bell
In other words, in the trunking system.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
art bell
I've got you.
john captain crunch draper
They use two tones out of six.
art bell
So you began to get very interested, I presume, in I mean the word is hacking, in trying to figure out how the phone company worked.
In the meantime, had you begun to make a whole lot of long-distance calls?
john captain crunch draper
Initially, when I first discovered it, when the idea occurred to me, I just completely went off the wall.
I was bouncing off the wall.
I was real happy that I was able to do it.
After about the first few calls, where I called a few of my buddies back in the Air Force that I knew, you know, it started getting old and I just stopped making long-distance calls.
There's nobody to call.
I mean, I didn't have that many people that I knew that were long-distance.
art bell
Yeah, the fun was going out of it because once you call anybody you know who's long distance, they get tired of hearing from you and you get tired of calling them.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
So after I've talked just about everything I needed to say to all my long distance friends, which really wasn't that much, I focused a lot of my efforts on understanding the internal codes used by the operators.
art bell
This is called hacking.
It's now progressed, of course, to the computer world.
But this was before all of that, really, and the home computer was a big deal.
So there you were hacking away at their tones.
What did you manage to discover?
john captain crunch draper
Well, we discovered a lot of things.
We discovered, for instance, that it was possible to stack tandems.
Let me explain what that means.
art bell
Please.
john captain crunch draper
Yes.
When you call into, let's say one, let's say you're in Fresno and the area code for Fresno is 209.
And let's say there's Modesto, and Modesto also has area code 209.
To reach a distant operator in a distant city, you dial 209121.
121 is the operator code.
I don't believe these codes are used anymore.
This is why I can talk about them.
When that happens, there's no way to distinguish whether you want to call Fresno or Modesto.
So what you do is they add another three-digit code in there.
For instance, if you dial 209042121, that would specify that you were calling, let's say, Fresno.
And then if you dial 209044121, that would then specify the other city.
art bell
I see.
john captain crunch draper
So we call these O codes.
Another name for them are called TTC codes.
That's the internal telephone company jargon for the use of those codes.
art bell
Well, what good was this doing you?
In other words, you were then in the Modesto area.
I can see how you would get to Modesto or any other city.
And then what?
john captain crunch draper
Well, if you left out the 121 and dialed just 209044, you would get a wink back and you'd get dropped on the Fresno trunk.
And then from Fresno, if you dialed 044042, or the other way around, you'd get another wink back and you'd loop back to Fresno and back to Modesto again, one loop, and you'd do it again and do it again and keep looping back and keep looping back until all the trunks are busy.
art bell
Until all the trunks are busy?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
art bell
And then people can't call out of Modesto?
john captain crunch draper
Only between the two cities.
Other cities coming into Stockholm or Modesto, it would probably work.
art bell
But you were locking out entire areas.
And you were doing this with purpose or just to...
john captain crunch draper
We did it to understand the system.
And of course, we were very careful not to do it during times, during peak calling times.
art bell
What do you mean we, Tonto?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, me and quite a few other friends that were hacking the system at the time.
art bell
Now, I understand there was a way that...
You told me that you could sort of have some mass hackers party line.
In other words, you guys could find some empty, was it trunk?
How did you do that?
john captain crunch draper
Okay, there existed a phone line in Vancouver, Canada called the 2111 Conference.
To get into it, you could either use a Captain Crunch whistle and dial 604-555-1212 And then whistle it off and then dial with the whistle, and then one, doot, one, doot, one, doot, and you would drop into that conference.
That was the favorite conference to the blind phone freak kids who can whistle that with their mouths because they have perfect pitch.
art bell
Oh, there are people who can do this and don't even need a whistle?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
art bell
Yikes.
john captain crunch draper
And these became very popular.
In fact, it was on one of those conferences that I was officially given the name Captain Crunch.
art bell
How did you earn that?
Sort of the first or what earned you Captaincy?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I kept getting on the conference for quite a while and started talking to these kids, and I'd put it up on a speakerphone while I was doing my homework or other studies.
unidentified
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And I'd be listening to them talking all about this phone jargon, and I started picking up on it and understanding what was going on.
And then they said, well, we got this other guy from San Jose, John Draper.
Are you there?
And I said, yeah, I'm here.
And he said, well, how come you're using your real name?
art bell
Good point.
john captain crunch draper
And I said, well, I don't know.
He said, why don't you use a fictitious name?
It'll probably be safer.
And I said, yeah, I guess you're right.
Well, let's see.
Why don't I just use the name Captain Crunch?
Is that name taken?
They said, nah, that's a good name.
Let's use that name.
So I sort of became known as Captain Crunch in the 2111 Conference, which was my first exposure to a large group of people all over the country that were accessing this big giant party line called the 2111 Conference.
art bell
All right, well, Captain, that was the day, those were the days that AT ⁇ T had it all.
They were the phone company, right?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
There was only one phone company.
The phone company.
Uh-huh.
art bell
The bells.
The bells.
By the way, do you still favor, do you favor, do you have favorite?
AT ⁇ T is still your favorite?
john captain crunch draper
No, I don't use AT ⁇ T on my phone.
unidentified
You don't use AT ⁇ T?
john captain crunch draper
No.
You know why?
art bell
No, why?
john captain crunch draper
They charge that 80-cent ridiculous surcharge on calling card calls.
art bell
Oh, I see.
john captain crunch draper
So you take you to the cleaners on that.
You want to check my mail message because I can get on and off in less than six seconds.
art bell
Well, I noticed that you don't have a regular phone.
You've got a mail service now.
john captain crunch draper
After all, I have voicemail because I don't have a place to live.
Oh, I see.
art bell
Has the phone company banned you forever?
john captain crunch draper
No, I pay my bill just like everybody else.
I have voicemail and I have an inexpensive long-distance service that provides me with exceptionally good rates and six-second billing increments and no surcharge with an 800 access number.
art bell
Wow.
john captain crunch draper
And that's, you know, it's a pretty good service and very reliable and very good.
art bell
Well, all right, so here you guys were all having this great meeting and I presume exchanging new discoveries about how to hack.
Is that about right?
Yeah.
So there you are.
Now, when did you begin to think that the phone company would be unhappy about this and would begin to try and monitor you, if not catch your butt?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I was fully aware of that.
And I was very careful not to make any free phone calls from home.
But that didn't preclude me from using a blue box and experimenting around with the O codes.
I felt that if I were to dial into the internal network and not actually make free calls, actually just study and learn how the system went wouldn't would.
There's this thing with intent here, but my intention was not to defraud the phone company.
art bell
You were on a learning curve.
You wanted to learn about the internals of their system more than you wanted to make free calls.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
But it was possible, by the way, for you to...
Yes.
art bell
All right, sure.
You're listening to John Draper, aka Captain Crunch.
And we're doing a radio interview.
Okay, I'm back.
john captain crunch draper
I am at a private campground at the moment, up on Mount Tamil Pias in Lorin.
art bell
Uh-huh.
And that is sort of your temporary home, I take it?
john captain crunch draper
It's one of many places that I usually wind up sleeping.
art bell
Uh-huh.
john captain crunch draper
I've got a story to tell about why I have become this way.
It's an interesting story.
It involves hacking, actually.
art bell
It does.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'll show you.
Let me explain.
About a couple of months ago, I was trying to apply for a job, and it turns out that somebody turned me on to a hacking mailing list.
Oh, no.
art bell
Now we're to computers.
Everybody ought to know that we're talking computers here, right?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
And in this hacking mailing list, somebody was actually saying a lot of derogatory terms about me that came to my attention.
And I took these messages and passed them to my attorney.
And my attorney to ask him for advice.
I basically wanted to ask him if I had any legal grounds for a lawsuit for this slanderous material on the net.
But it turned out this very same hacker that was slandering me was also reading my mail.
art bell
Oh, hacking your mail?
john captain crunch draper
Well, yeah, you can imagine how many hackers want to hack Captain Crunch's mail.
art bell
I can, yes, of course.
So there was a war on.
Well, you know, you're almost a public person, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Yes, that's precisely it.
art bell
And I'm sure that's what your attorney told you.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
I mean, it's very hard to sue a public person.
That is, to sue somebody else.
john captain crunch draper
But here's the funny part.
My intention, of course, was not to sue.
My intention was to just investigate the possibilities at this point.
art bell
Sure.
Maybe scare the hell out of the guy, maybe.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, in my investigation, the hacker found out that I was talking about him to my attorney and got very mad.
And he started to monitor my mail more.
And he discovered, through listening and reading my mail, that I was in the process of interviewing for jobs, found out about it, and contact these potential employers not to hire me.
art bell
John, do you think this might be karma?
john captain crunch draper
Don't know.
art bell
you know what I mean, don't you?
In other words, in your younger incarnation, you got the phone company.
john captain crunch draper
Right.
art bell
And now, in later days, the computer people are getting you.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
That crossed my mind many times.
art bell
I mean, it might be just plain old karma.
And so, in other words, this guy ruined jobs for you.
Well, that is indeed seriously damaging.
So that's why you are now without job, without home, more or less on the move?
unidentified
Well, sort of.
john captain crunch draper
I've actually been invited to quite a few places, and I am considering taking up some invitations for these places.
And I'm at the moment just enjoying my freedom of being able to travel around and not have any particular place that I have to go to.
art bell
Freedom is good, isn't it, John?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I am enjoying the freedom.
And we're making the best of it.
art bell
John, hold on.
We're at the top of the hour.
Just hang in there.
We'll be right back.
This is CBC.
unidentified
Super Top 997
WTN.
It's live.
Overnight talk for the Ark Bell Show.
Because you deserve the best.
Only from Nashville's Super Talk FM.
99.7 WTN.
Yeah, now, baby, baby, twirling, ooh, yeah.
Stay tuned for more of this encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM coming up after these messages.
art bell
Coast to Coast AM All right, back now to the captain, Captain Crunch, who found out a way years ago, many years ago now, to defeat the telephone company's internal system.
And he did things like locking up trunk systems, having meetings with his friends in these big party chat trunk basements.
He was so far into the phone company, it wasn't even funny.
John, are you there?
Yep.
Tell me, do they still call you Captain today, mostly?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I've sort of been given the name Crunchman.
Crunchman?
Yeah, and that's kind of what I've used for my website.
art bell
I see.
Now, it is worth asking you, Crunchman, Captain Crunch, how a person who is now without a home, and that's a long story we began to sell, has a website.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, well, I've been on the well ever since the Well started back in 1982, 83, or 84, somewhere in that general area.
art bell
So you jumped right on the computer bandwagon.
john captain crunch draper
Back then, yeah, actually the Well people invited me on to comment on some of the hacker conferences that they had way back then.
The well was sort of like a local community system conferencing system.
art bell
Is it kind of like what came before the web?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, much before the web.
Okay.
Yeah.
art bell
All right.
Well, look, let us back up a little bit to the telephone company troubles all those years ago.
The FBI finally got on to you.
Right, Captain?
How did they do it?
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
Well, soon after we were playing around with the blue boxes, somebody who was also playing around with blue boxes was using blue boxes as well, totally independent from us.
art bell
Did you build the first blue box?
john captain crunch draper
Probably not the first one, but one of the first ones.
art bell
One of the first ones.
A blue box was a technical improvement on the whistle, right?
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
Basically, all a blue box is, is a multi-frequency tone generator.
art bell
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
That's all it is.
art bell
Can a blue box still be used?
john captain crunch draper
I don't believe so.
I haven't tried, and I'm not going to.
art bell
Do you hear that, guys?
He's not going to.
You have truly given up your phone hacking days, right?
john captain crunch draper
Absolutely, without a doubt.
art bell
Absolutely, without a doubt.
All right, so anyway, here's the blue box.
This sucker will allow you to access satellites, all kinds of things, right?
john captain crunch draper
Right.
So I got a call.
Actually, I got a call from this guy, Ron Rosenbaum, who was working on an article for Es Squire magazine called The Secrets of the Little Blue Box.
art bell
Uh-uh.
john captain crunch draper
And these blind kids begged me to talk to this guy, because these blind kids had already talked to this guy and given him way too much information already.
So I somehow wound up talking to him, God knows why.
You did an interview about this?
Uh, yeah.
Oh, God.
But, you see, the interview was very, was done at a place where I called him, and I called him from a very remote phone.
I don't believe the interview was tapped, even if it was.
I don't think there would have been any problem with me.
art bell
Okay, at this point, you were not giving him your real name, right?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, absolutely no way.
art bell
Okay, well, that's not so bad, then.
So you did an analysis.
john captain crunch draper
I was still underground.
I had not been busted.
All right.
art bell
So you were just still Captain Crunch, period, and you were doing a...
All right, well, that's not so bad, I guess.
john captain crunch draper
So I consented to Be interviewed by him under certain restrictions that I wouldn't give him my real name.
And the article came out in Esquire magazine, and when it did, I mean, it hit the phone companies like a bomb.
I mean, their secret was literally out.
It didn't take long before Steve Wozniak, co-founder of Apple Computer, was pawing through the technical Bell journals at his local college and discovered a certain Bell technical journal that gave the frequencies of the little blue box.
He discovered that the frequencies of the little blue box were quite different than the frequencies that were published in Esquire Magazine, which were deliberately given to prevent people from doing it.
art bell
Very good.
john captain crunch draper
At the time, I was working for a community radio station in Cooper Keno.
art bell
Right.
john captain crunch draper
And word got out that a friend of Woz knew me and wanted me to contact Woz about this.
art bell
He needed operational help.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
So Woz somehow convinced me or talked me into going down to the, or going up to UC Berkeley campus, at which time I gave him a demonstration on how to use the thing.
art bell
His jaw no doubt dropped open.
john captain crunch draper
Uh yeah.
He was quite impressed with what you could do with it.
You could call overseas numbers and call anything, you know.
I gave him some typical operator codes and says, here's what you can do with it.
and eventually...
art bell
It's 702-727-1295.
john captain crunch draper
We did not at any time want to use our technology for personal.
art bell
So in other words, you didn't want it to be commercialized.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
Okay.
I personally was adamant against any commercial gain using this technology back then, though, as making free calls and selling them.
art bell
You were absolutely a pure amateur.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was a pure hacker.
I was the hacker ethics.
Amateur as opposed to professional, I suppose when you turn around and start selling this stuff, So at this point, Woz was selling these things.
And I remember him putting a little note inside the little blue box saying he has the whole world in his hands.
One of the things that Woz did with the box was he called the Vatican and asked to talk to the Pope.
art bell
Really?
Yeah.
I once tried to call Castro in Cuba, too.
I didn't get through.
I got close.
I actually got close.
Surprised me.
You can actually call world leaders.
Anyway, so he tried to call the Pope.
john captain crunch draper
Interesting.
art bell
It's possible.
I mean, you know, these people are not as inaccessible as you might imagine.
john captain crunch draper
Right.
Soon after that, Woz's car broke down on the way to UC Berkeley, and he happened to have been somewhere in Fremont or Hayward.
He was at a pay phone, and he decided that he wanted to try the blue box to see if he can call for help on his car.
art bell
Oh, geez.
john captain crunch draper
Well, just as he gets to the payphone with a blue box, a cop car pulls up.
art bell
Oh, boy.
john captain crunch draper
And the cop says, what you doing?
And Woz says, making a phone call.
And the cop sees the blue box in Woz's hand and says, what's that?
And Woz says, it's a music synthesizer.
art bell
Good answer.
john captain crunch draper
The cop was playing with the tones for a while with that little acoustical coupler thing that they used to put to the mouthpiece to make the call.
art bell
Ah, yes.
john captain crunch draper
Cop hands it back to Woz and says, a guy by the name of Moog beats it to it.
Moog is the person that makes the music synthesizers.
art bell
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And Woz said, and sort of got in his car and left.
But back then, you know, the police weren't really aware of what the blue boxes could do, even though maybe the Esquire magazine article did come out at that point.
art bell
Still, there was not a full awareness yet.
john captain crunch draper
Right.
It took a while for the impact of the Esquire article to hit home.
About a month or so later, the 2111 conference was getting switched over to the multi-frequency because the 2111 conference was on one of the very few remaining single-frequency trunks in Vancouver.
They were switching over now to the multi-frequency trunking.
And all of the phone hackers decided to have one big glass bash at the 2111 conference and have a huge party line to commemorate the death of the 2111 conference.
And as the phone company was making the cutover to the new switching office, we're fully aware at this point of all these calls coming into this very strange trunking mechanism.
art bell
Do you think somebody at the phone company was sitting there listening to these parties you guys were having?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, without a doubt.
We didn't really care.
We weren't really concerned with that because we weren't really making free calls.
We were only just using their internal trunking.
art bell
Yeah.
Sort of.
john captain crunch draper
Well, it's just a matter of opinion.
We thought so anyway.
What happened at that point was calls were starting to get traced back to the individuals making the calls.
art bell
Now, how many of these people were doing this from their house?
john captain crunch draper
I was actually doing it from my house at the time, but I was jumping on somebody's auto-verified trunk.
The auto-verified trunks is what you use to pop in on somebody else's line.
And with my friend Fred's permission, I jumped in on his line and sat there with this bridged across his line.
unidentified
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
art bell
Jump in on somebody's line.
Now, tell me something, and everybody else, too, at the same time, Captain.
There have been many times, not many, but enough, when I've made a call.
And instead of reaching the party I was trying to call, I get dumped into the middle of somebody's conversation.
And occasionally, I'll yell, hey, and they'll go, hey, who the hell are you?
And there'll be a two-way.
A lot of times, I'll go, hey, and there'll be no answer.
Nobody, but and yet their conversation just goes on.
How does that happen?
john captain crunch draper
That happens because sometimes the switching equipment screws up and switches on an incorrect trunk.
And if it switches on an incorrect trunk, sometimes it switches just a one-way trunk, sometimes it switches a two-way trunk.
art bell
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And so what you probably got was a one-way trunk where you could hear them, but they couldn't hear you.
art bell
Exactly right.
And so you had the ability somehow to...
john captain crunch draper
It was the same kind of thing that the emergency operators used to tell the party talking to the line to give up the call.
art bell
Oh, right.
So you had a set of tones that, in other words, you would just dial the number that's busy and then hit some special sequence of tones and boom, you're in the middle of the conversation?
john captain crunch draper
Well, actually, it was quite even simpler than that.
We just call the operator, we'd use a loop around, and through the loop around, we'd call the operator, and we'd simply say, operator, would you please put us up on a no test trunk?
art bell
A no test trunk?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and she'd say, yes, sir.
And she'd click us in and she'd leave the line.
And then we'd just, with the blue box, I'll pulse the last five digits of the phone number that we wanted to tap in on.
art bell
Wait a minute.
Why would the operator be willing to do that?
First of all, I don't know what a no test trunk is, but why would she be willing to do that?
Did she assume that you were like a repair guy?
unidentified
Exactly.
john captain crunch draper
The phone company didn't have a very good mechanism for identifying their own internal employees.
They are the masters of communication, but within their system, their communications was very weak.
art bell
I understand.
john captain crunch draper
And so it was not uncommon, if you used the right telephone company jargon, to just simply get the regular old operator to do things for you and put you up on certain lines.
art bell
Yeah, I get that.
I can imagine that's absolutely true.
john captain crunch draper
Because back in those days, it was not a problem.
art bell
Okay.
So you could do that, and then you could jump in on the middle of anybody.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, anybody that's talking on the line.
art bell
Now, here there's a big ethical moral dilemma, of course.
john captain crunch draper
Well, in my particular case, I didn't jump on somebody's line without his permission.
I had his permission to jump on the line.
art bell
Well said, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
I want to talk to my friend Fred on his other line.
I says, Fred, I'd like to get back in on the 2111 conference.
I just got knocked off.
Do I have your permission to bridge on the line you're already calling on?
He said, sure, go ahead and just no test up on my line.
I says, okay, fine.
I went and called the operator up and I said, operator, would you please connect me to a no test trunk, please?
He said, sure, one moment, sir.
Click.
And then I outpulsed his number and I got right up on Fred's line.
I said, hi, Fred, I'm up.
He says, great.
And then that way I was still able to participate in the conference because my particular incoming line to the 2N11 conference had already been knocked down.
art bell
I guess the phone company read the Esquire article.
They probably went crackers and said...
Yeah, I can imagine.
john captain crunch draper
In other words, you were a bunch of...
art bell
You were like a gnat on Bell's butt, so to speak.
Yeah.
Until the Esquire article.
Now, and then the confirming tones, and then all of a sudden the whole country had it.
So the phone company went crackers.
I'm sure they called the FBI and said, we're in deep doo-doo here.
If this gets out, we're ruined.
We've got to get these guys.
john captain crunch draper
Well.
art bell
Or something like that.
john captain crunch draper
Or something like that.
As far as I could tell, what happened next, the phone company basically contacted the Justice Department and the FBI to set up grand jury investigations in about 10 different cities all over the country.
The purpose of the grand jury investigation were to subpoena these young kids who they were able to trace back to quite a few people's phone lines that were on the 2111 conference.
They then subpoenaed these people to testify before a grand jury.
art bell
How old were these?
john captain crunch draper
How old were you then?
Oh, I was still in my mid-30s.
art bell
You were in your mid-30s.
john captain crunch draper
A lot of these kids were in their 17, 16-year range.
art bell
Typical hacker age.
john captain crunch draper
Correct.
Yeah.
And so a lot of these kids got visited by the FBI, who then said, you are subpoenaed.
And they were then forced to testify before a grand jury, who then asked them a lot of questions about who they knew.
And of course, my name came up.
art bell
Captain Crunch.
The name Captain Crunch was repeated probably in several grand juries at once.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
So then the Justice Department, I guess, was building a case against me.
art bell
Was building a case still, though, they had not walked in on you?
unidentified
No.
art bell
Yikes.
john captain crunch draper
But during that, and I mean, you know, of course I did.
From that point on, I didn't do anything from home.
I was very careful.
art bell
Oh, I see.
So where would you go?
To friends' houses or to phone booths?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I wouldn't do it from home.
I wouldn't do it from a place where it would be easy to trace me.
art bell
Yeah, but wouldn't you be afraid that if, like, you went to a friend's house, they would trace a number to there?
And, you know, I mean, the FBI walking in on you is a very unpleasant experience.
And you tend to talk.
So if they walked in on a friend of yours, just idle thinking here.
john captain crunch draper
Well, that's what happened.
They did talk, and that's why I got indicted.
art bell
I see.
So somebody, you don't have to give me a name, but somebody gave you up, or several people gave you up?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I might say that.
art bell
They just did.
john captain crunch draper
I was a football guy.
art bell
Yeah, so you were living in the Bay Area, right, Sanfran?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, down in the Los Gattis area, actually.
art bell
Uh-huh.
And so they finally, I guess, got a warrant for your grand jury indictment or what?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, so in May 1972, I was picked up just as I was coming home from the college.
art bell
And what did they do?
Did they arrest you on the spot, or did they...
Well, they needed physical evidence.
Did they have a search warrant go in and...
Bad, bad, bad.
Well, what did you do?
Did you say, it's not me.
I don't have any idea how those damn things got there.
Somebody must have come in in the middle of the night and left them in my apartment.
john captain crunch draper
Well, after I contacted the attorney, I was told to say nothing.
art bell
Good advice.
So you shut your mouth?
john captain crunch draper
Pretty much.
art bell
And then, and so then they probably, they sat you down and sweated you a little, didn't they?
john captain crunch draper
No, they took me down to the Santa Clara County colding tank, and when the magistrate saw me, she, or he rather, uh, basically released me on my own recognizance.
art bell
Was that a good idea?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I wasn't really a flight risk.
art bell
So in other words, you didn't run away.
That's what I'm asking.
You remained around.
So you got released.
All right, look, we're at the bottom of the hour.
That's where we'll break and come back and resume Captain Crunch's story.
It's John Draper, a.k.a.
Captain Crunch.
The man who had the phone company for some time by the throat.
He is a legend, and he'll be back.
This is CBC.
unidentified
CBC.
Stay tuned for more with telephone hacker Captain Crunch on this encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
The End Art Bell, live on Supertalk FM.
99.7 WTN.
99.7 WTN.
art bell
Well, all right, back now to Captain Crunch.
And here he was in the not-so-gentle hands, no doubt, of the FBI.
And they had you in custody.
They had you in the pokey, in fact, right?
john captain crunch draper
Right.
So what happened?
So, well, I stayed in the holding tank about four hours.
art bell
Yep.
john captain crunch draper
And then I got to see the magistrate in the morning.
art bell
Yep.
john captain crunch draper
And the magistrate released me on your right.
Then I went and contacted my attorney.
I managed to evade the press.
There was a couple of reporters there, as I recall.
I think John Carroll from San Jose Mercury was there.
art bell
This was a big story.
As a matter of fact, Captain, it broke nationally, really, didn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, yeah, it was in the news.
It was quite newsworthy at the point.
What happened was, I believe he actually, as I recall, I believe one of the reporters actually gave me a ride home.
art bell
Oh, really?
No doubt, out of the goodness of his heart and desiring an interview.
Did you give him an interview on the way home?
john captain crunch draper
I told him that I was really not supposed to talk about it.
I only showed him the arrest warrant in the police report that I was handed, which was public information and knowledge anyway.
I mean, they could have gotten it.
And I found out later that was okay to do.
I went to my attorney's place who prepared the case, and they basically had Did he say, hey, John, you're screwed?
No, he didn't.
He said he was very methodical and very business-like.
He says, well, let's see what they got.
So they went through the discovery process and they discovered that they had some of my equipment and it was illegal for me to possess it.
So they had me.
art bell
They had you on possession.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
Of a blue box.
Of the equipment.
art bell
Of the equipment.
How much equipment did you have?
john captain crunch draper
All I had was a small blue box.
art bell
That was it?
john captain crunch draper
That was it, yeah.
art bell
But that was enough?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
Okay, well, so they've got the physical evidence, and no doubt they had phone records.
Could they connect?
The next thing they had to do, right, was connect the use of that box.
Because you can possess things.
Well, maybe you can't.
john captain crunch draper
Well, they had tapes of my voice on the 2111 conference.
art bell
Oh, that's me.
john captain crunch draper
Tapes of me, tapes of me making calls when I was bridged to the 211 conference with my voice.
art bell
Even worse.
So they had you.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, pretty much.
Um what happened later was I was offered a deal.
art bell
A deal?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
What kind of deal?
john captain crunch draper
I was offered a $1,000 fine and probation for five years.
art bell
If?
john captain crunch draper
If I pled guilty to one of the crimes.
art bell
Possession?
john captain crunch draper
Uh no.
Title 18, Section 1343, Fraud by Wire.
art bell
Fraud by Wire.
Wire fraud, they call it.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
I see.
john captain crunch draper
After I pled guilty to that, I was able to, in five years, go and have it expunged from my record as part of the deal.
art bell
So it has now been expunged?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
art bell
So this is now, at least that part of your life, is totally behind you.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
When you think back on those days, and I did a few things, Captain, myself, that the statute of limitations, fortunately, is long since passed on, that when I look back on them, I know it shouldn't be true, but they were fun.
Is that the way you look back on that?
Well, you probably don't, huh?
Because you ended up in jail.
john captain crunch draper
Well, that part certainly wasn't.
But the part where we had a lot of fun with the system was.
art bell
Were you ever officially contacted by the phone company?
john captain crunch draper
No.
I thought about it, and I thought about what I would do if I were contacted.
And I don't understand why they didn't contact me.
It's probably thought I was such an evil person.
art bell
Evil?
Yeah, I suppose from their point of view, you were evil.
john captain crunch draper
And so it was like, I assume that they probably didn't contact me because of like asking the fox to guard the hen house.
art bell
Well, yeah, but that is what a lot of companies like that do.
I mean, these days, the best of the computer hackers, a subject yet to be covered, really, are frequently hired by companies to protect them from their brother.
john captain crunch draper
They made a bad decision not to hire me, because if they would have hired me, I certainly would have signed a non-disclosure agreement.
I certainly would have shut up.
But instead, they throw me in jail.
And while I was in jail, I was exposed to the cranium of people that shouldn't have that kind of technology.
And I had classes in jail.
I taught everybody how to do it.
art bell
You did what?
You taught them in jail how to operate blue boxes and whistles and all that?
Oh, John.
I've heard that our penal institutions are.
john captain crunch draper
They're universities of crime.
art bell
Universities of crime, and you were a professor.
john captain crunch draper
To some extent.
art bell
Oh, geez.
How long were you in school?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was sentenced to four months in Lompak.
art bell
Longhook.
john captain crunch draper
And that was where...
It's a minimum security camp.
It really didn't have any walls.
It didn't have very clearly marked areas which you could not go.
art bell
And of course, at this point, the nation's, you know, publicity was all over the place, so I guess everybody in jail knew who you were and naturally wanted to know how to do what you do.
john captain crunch draper
I was approached by many people in jail, yes, indeed.
art bell
Did you give of information freely?
john captain crunch draper
Initially not, because I was really unsure of what was going on.
But when it became very clear what would happen to me if I didn't, I changed my mind.
art bell
In other words, you'd end up with something sticking out of your belly.
john captain crunch draper
Or reasonable facsimile thereof.
art bell
Yeah, yeah.
I understand.
So you began to teach people how to do this, and then...
john captain crunch draper
Shortly after that, I mean, the things just took off.
I mean, everybody was using them.
art bell
And so the phone company was, at this point, they were beginning to lose big money.
john captain crunch draper
I would assume so.
It became well known.
More and more people, of course, being busted for using them.
art bell
I'm sure as far as they were concerned, the death penalty would have been a light sentence for you if the phone company could have set your penalty.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
But what they should have done was to just say, hey, look, let's hire this guy.
art bell
Sure.
unidentified
I would have worked for him.
art bell
Technology.
john captain crunch draper
I would have certainly helped them get rid of quite a few of their bugs.
art bell
Yeah, but John, wouldn't you have felt poorly literally busting your old buddy?
john captain crunch draper
No, because I wouldn't focus on busting my friends.
You'd go after the work for them under certain conditions, and the conditions are that maybe I fix their system or help them fix their system.
I wouldn't go out and snitch on my fellow man.
Of course not.
art bell
I see.
All right.
So you would have just, you'd have taken down the, quote, bad guys, end quote.
john captain crunch draper
No, I wouldn't even have taken down the bad guys.
I would have just fixed the system for them.
I would have made it impossible to use them.
How long boxes are.
art bell
Captain, how long did the problem, after you got out of jail, how long do you think the phone company was continuing to put up with massive intrusion?
john captain crunch draper
Well, the phone company, of course, was using a flawed system to begin with.
art bell
Correct.
john captain crunch draper
And their whole system was using this in-band signaling technique.
Back in the 50s, when they were bragging about how they were using the same wire pair for talking as signaling, they thought it was quite clever and economic.
But it turned out to be a very, very major security flaw.
art bell
Achilles' heel.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
So slowly in the mid-70s, early, I'd say mid to late 70s, the phone companies started to replace their old in-band signaling system to an out-of-band CCIS signaling system.
It used a separate data path to actually send this information back.
art bell
Well, you're talking over some heads.
What that meant is that.
john captain crunch draper
The signaling information is the phone number that you're calling.
Instead of being sent out to the distant end through tones, it's sent out digitally.
art bell
Now, let me ask you, in the years that have passed, even though, of course, we all know that you have never hatched so much as a single number.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I can't say that, but...
art bell
What I was going on to say was, technology has changed, and even though I was trying to help you there, John, even though you've never done anything since, have you kept up on phone company changing technology?
john captain crunch draper
To some extent, yeah.
I mean, my notoriety has certainly gotten quite a few people to contact me who call me up and say, hey, did you know you can do this?
No.
Or did you know you can do that?
And I say, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, interesting, but I'm not going to do it.
art bell
Of course not.
But it is, thank you, interesting to know, and I appreciate the information.
Is there any law against people passing this kind of information on to each other?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I believe it's called conspiracy.
art bell
Yes, it probably is.
unidentified
And so you'd be surprised.
art bell
I'm sure I would.
Now, we don't want to be charged with conspiracy here, John, so be careful.
If you have any modern techniques, let us not talk about those.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, of course not.
art bell
But suffice to say, without discussing them, it is still possible to play if one wants to.
john captain crunch draper
I'm sure it is.
I'm sure it's been done.
And it's, you know, obviously different than the way it was then.
art bell
And it is against the law, folks, and you should not do that.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, don't play this at home, folks.
art bell
There is a lot of interesting new technology like caller ID, for example.
john captain crunch draper
Right.
And that's so easy to get around.
art bell
Here's a question.
I'm getting them by facts.
Question, Captain.
Are all local calls traceable after the call with new wiretapped technology?
How long is it safe to stay on a line, if at all, before your call can be traced?
john captain crunch draper
It can be immediately traced.
art bell
Immediately?
john captain crunch draper
Right.
art bell
Now, you know, the guy who called 911, of course, 911 with the bomb threat, they knew exactly what phone that came from instantly.
But you're telling us that any local call can be instantly identified?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, using the new digital switch, of course.
art bell
So the old days of keep them on the line, keep them talking, we've almost got it, we've almost got it.
Those days are gone?
john captain crunch draper
They've been gone throughout the past seven or eight years.
art bell
Really?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
Another thing I want to talk to you about, Captain, is they have the National Security Agency in Washington monitors calls.
As a matter of fact, President Clinton right now, because of the terrorism and the horrible stuff going on, is lobbying to be able to do even more of it.
But I understand that back in Washington and at NSA, there is this big computer that monitors randomly zillions of calls going on all at the same time for keywords, what are called keywords.
And, for example, a word like kilo, kilo, or I'm sure bomb, or, you know, words like that.
And when the computer catches those words, it flags somebody who then records the call, or the call is recorded automatically and then monitored.
Do you know anything about that?
john captain crunch draper
I've heard that rumor from many sources.
I see.
As to whether or not that rumor is true, I have no clue.
I believe that it would probably be safe to assume that it is true.
However, nowadays, it's certainly possible to keep very secure telephone communications with data encryption programs like PGP.
And there's another program.
art bell
That's a pretty good privacy.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, Philip Zimmerman's program.
And there's also got a program called PGP Phone, which works on the Macintosh now, the 28.8 odd modem.
art bell
Now, is this so good?
john captain crunch draper
You can use it to actually communicate by voice in a way.
art bell
But is this so good that even the government could not listen?
john captain crunch draper
I'm told that it is.
art bell
Oh, they're not going to like that.
john captain crunch draper
Well, the government for a long time has been cringing on the program PGP.
I mean, it's a very good encryption mechanism.
It uses an encryption that was designed and developed in Europe.
In fact, a lot of the PGP code was written from programmers in Sweden and actually they're joking.
art bell
It's called PGP Pretty Good Privacy, but it really is very good privacy, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it's very good.
If you use a very large key, it's going to keep those government-craig computers clinching for many millions of years.
art bell
Before they decode it, really.
Well, I guess the government does not like the idea that its citizens, and frankly, John, I understand a little of it.
In other words, we've got nutball cases, not like you who's just having fun with the phone company, but nutball cases out there.
You know, it's become a very serious...
unidentified
It's a double...
john captain crunch draper
It's a double-edged sword.
Yeah.
And people want their privacy, but at the same time, criminals can certainly communicate without being tapped.
And so what are we going to do about that?
Well, that's a good question.
I can't answer that question.
art bell
Well, okay, here's an old one maybe you can answer.
Captain, one of the other whistles in use at the time, I don't know this to be true, he says the Oscar Wire.
john captain crunch draper
Oscar Mayer Wiener whistle, yes.
That is another whistle that is...
art bell
He goes on.
Lots of hot dogs were consumed by blind teenage kids in search of that wonderful whistle, Dave in Bisalia, California.
john captain crunch draper
True?
That is true.
The Oscar Marowiner whistle.
Yeah, it came out about a year or so after the Captain Crunch whistle.
art bell
Hey, Captain, here's a couple of calls.
Let's see who we've got.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hi, Mega Kilos from America's Dairyland.
art bell
Oh, Wisconsin.
unidentified
How are you doing tonight, Art?
art bell
All right.
unidentified
This is definitely a pleasure.
I just got a question for the captain.
I guess, overall, was it worth it?
You know, what you had to go through after you got caught, was it worth that excitement and the fun that you were talking about?
art bell
Oh, that's a really good question.
john captain crunch draper
Well, at the time, yes and no.
Yes, in the sense of the knowledge that I gained, but no in the sense of all the harassment that I've had.
art bell
Well, as you look back on it now, you can probably put a smile on your face and say, yes, those were wonderful, adventuresome years, but I'm sure that at the time the FBI walked in, you were saying a very big no.
It wasn't worth it at all.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah, of course.
art bell
I'm sorry, I'll never do anything bad again in my whole life.
Let me go, Mama.
john captain crunch draper
I want my mama.
art bell
That's the way I'd feel.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
It's a natural reaction, I'm sure.
art bell
So there you are, Color.
unidentified
All right, thanks.
art bell
All right, thank you.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Yes, this is Steve from San Diego.
art bell
Hey, Steve.
unidentified
Hey, I have a couple of issues just run by John here.
First of all, I'm a little put off by your recent finding of piety about all this.
You were busted three or four times before you finally gave up the ghost as far as your notoriety.
art bell
Oh, wait.
I didn't know that.
Let's ask you.
unidentified
Let me finish.
art bell
Well, I'll let you finish.
Hold on.
I want to find out if that's true.
You were busted three or four times, John?
john captain crunch draper
Well, actually, three times, but the second time was because I was set up by the FBI through an informant.
unidentified
Well, let's talk about this.
Am I still on the line?
Yeah, sure.
As I recall the last one I read about, you had a mobile operation in a truck so that you would not be traced.
john captain crunch draper
That was the earlier days.
unidentified
Okay.
But it wasn't the first bus when they busted you in the truck.
john captain crunch draper
No.
That was before the first bust.
unidentified
All I'm getting at is, it's been a long time and memories seem to fade, but I'm a contemporary of yours, and I remember fully well how you persisted in spite of the fact that you'd been given...
john captain crunch draper
Okay, give me my chance.
Okay.
All right.
The second time, 1976 it was, I got visited by a very, very persistent individual down in the Los Angeles area who just begged to come up and have me help him with his blue box.
To get this guy off my back, I consented to having him come and visit me, provided that he would never bring the blue box in my presence or take it into my house for any reason.
I agreed to meet him at a place in a place far away from where I was.
art bell
You were just going to talk to him?
john captain crunch draper
I was just going to talk to him to get him off my back.
He wanted me to help him tune a blue box.
So to get him off my back, I said, look, you know, I don't want to do this, but just to get you off my back, I'll do it just this one time at the, you know.
And he says, well, can I try it now on this payphone?
He unfortunately picked a place, you know.
He says, can you meet me at this restaurant at such and such time and place?
And what happened was he'd made prior arrangements for the FBI to have a phone tapped.
art bell
Oh, God.
All right, look, you two.
Caller, hold on the line.
We've got a newscast coming up.
I'll hold you on, okay?
unidentified
Okay.
art bell
All right, stay there.
And Captain, you stay where you are, all right?
john captain crunch draper
I'm right here.
art bell
All right, and so are we.
And we will continue after this break.
Captain Crunch.
Captain Crunch, the amazing.
Back shortly.
unidentified
WWTN, Manchester, Nashville.
It's live.
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Because you deserve the best.
Only from Nashville's Super Talk FM.
997WTN.
Back to the best of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell
Hey, I found it.
Thank you, WTAZ in Morton, Illinois.
They sent it to me.
It's Maxine Nightingale.
By the way, good morning.
My guest is Captain Crunch.
unidentified
I don't think that.
art bell
Otherwise known as John Draper.
unidentified
Miles, I'm gone to your home bed And in his honor When it's all right and it's coming up We gotta get right back together Win the ball.
art bell
The honor accorded to an old con.
Here's a modern, modern-day tribute to the computer world.
I love this thing.
Listen to it.
unidentified
Of Airport 75 comes another epic tale of man versus machine.
Charleston Heston stars in Windows 95.
Product Spot, how may I help you?
Please, I can't save my document.
I need your help.
Yeah, I'll have to duck you down.
You see the save icon?
You have to click it once.
I can't.
I'm sorry.
Miss Woman, you've got to try.
Okay, okay, I'll click it twice.
I mean, one menu.
No, we're rebooting.
We're going to crash.
So complicated.
Charlton Hesse, Karen Black, and George Kennedy as billionaire Bill Gates, Windows 95.
art bell
So, Captain Crunch, we'll be back here in a moment.
If you've got a question for him, I'll get the numbers on the air here in a second.
The End Probably the world's most famous hacker, Captain Crunch, otherwise known as John Draper.
And he's in the Bay Area at an undisclosed location.
unidentified
On a payphone, I might add.
art bell
And he is somebody who many years ago hacked into the phone company's trunking systems, learned how to make free calls, had lots of conferences with buddies and other hackers until the FBI closed in on the captain.
Captain did a little time, paid his debt to society, had his record expunged, and is telling his story now.
And we've got Captain, I think, still there, right?
Captain?
Oh, no.
unidentified
Captain, where are you?
Oh.
art bell
Captain seems to have disappeared.
Captain?
Captain, where are you?
Captain, Captain, Captain, what happened?
You know, I might have expected this.
The captain seems to be...
This is very sad.
Caller, are you there?
unidentified
Yes.
art bell
Yes, something seems to have happened to the captain, as in a disconnect.
unidentified
Well, I hope I didn't scare him off, but I have some other more relevant information to direct towards him that maybe he didn't want to talk about.
Would you like to talk about it?
art bell
I'll talk about it.
Yeah, I mean, Captain, are you there?
No, he's still not there.
I've got a number I can ring back here in a moment if he doesn't show back up.
It may be.
It may be.
Maybe the phone company cut us off.
unidentified
You never know.
But as I said, I was a contemporary of his, and I have a little trouble with his Nixon-esque amnesia and deniability of culpability.
art bell
Well, now, wait a minute.
He didn't deny anything.
unidentified
Well, let's put it to you this way.
You know how Washington politics works, and they will soft peddle a difficult issue?
art bell
Yeah.
unidentified
He's doing that.
And the other additional issues I wanted to bring up included a contemporary of his named Trey.
art bell
Wait a minute.
My name was Trey.
unidentified
Pardon me?
art bell
My parents call me Trey.
unidentified
Well, okay, Trey, Trey.
art bell
Trey, Trey, that's right, Trey.
And look, I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
Let me put you back on hold, okay?
And let me see if I can get the captain back on the line.
Obviously, we've run into some difficulty here, so stand by.
Captain Crunch has been disconnected.
No big surprise there, I'm afraid.
We're going to see if we can get him back on the line.
So, Captain, if you're out there, get the line back open or something.
And I've got a couple of good relevant faxes, too.
So let's see if we can get the captain back.
me not.
If you would like...
Well, guess what?
We've got the captain back, I think.
Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm here.
art bell
Oh, man.
Do you think they got us?
unidentified
Don't.
art bell
Well, such things happen.
We'll let it slide.
Anyway, here's that caller who was kind of on your case.
He's back again.
Now you've got the captain.
unidentified
Okay, yeah, this is Steve again from San Diego.
john captain crunch draper
Yes, Steve.
Send me email, by the way.
I'll be down there after the 10th of August.
unidentified
Well, I'm a little reluctant to be in contact with you as I was back 25 years ago.
That's cool.
john captain crunch draper
Yep, that's right.
That's why I'm poisoned.
You don't want to touch me.
unidentified
Well, you seem to have sort of a Nixon-esque amnesia right now, and I'm wondering if you would also respond to a couple of other issues of why the government was so paranoid about what you were up to.
And I'll just run the...
art bell
I mean, Nixon simply said, I am not a criminal.
Now, the captain has freely admitted that he did his time.
unidentified
Well, no, but I'm speaking of Nixon because of the timeline.
art bell
I see.
unidentified
That's all.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I see.
unidentified
First of all, it was a contemporary of yours named Trey, who had bugged the Republican National Convention for 72 in San Diego.
art bell
Oh, no.
unidentified
And I don't know if he was the result of their moving it to Florida, but it got moved.
Trey was very disappointed.
art bell
Wait a minute.
One thing at a time, Captain, is there any truth to that allegation?
unidentified
No, wait.
john captain crunch draper
Run that by me one more time, please.
unidentified
You know who Trey is.
Do you?
john captain crunch draper
Man, I meet so many people.
I can't remember anybody.
unidentified
Think back in the'70s, he was one of the premier phone freaks of the time.
art bell
All right.
I'm shocked.
unidentified
He was going to.
art bell
Going to, I see.
Does that ring any AT ⁇ D bells for you, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Not that I recall.
Can you give me more details?
unidentified
Well, he physically phone-tapped the convention center and was prepared to provide that to the underground press.
I'm sure you were aware of that.
art bell
It doesn't sound like the captain removed.
unidentified
I don't recall that.
art bell
I don't recall that.
Okay, well, let's move on.
That is indeed the classic line.
I do not recall that.
unidentified
Here's one I know you have to respond to, and this is...
john captain crunch draper
Excuse me.
unidentified
Excuse me.
art bell
That's right.
unidentified
Don't make me so presumptive.
There was a publication put up by the Yippies through the late 60s through 1980 called Yipple and Tap.
And it publicized on how to do not only all of these things of phone taps and blue boxes and all the other good stuff, but how to take over public utilities and break into payphones and how to just about do anything else to undermine structured society.
art bell
And so what is your question?
unidentified
My question is, what did you do about that?
john captain crunch draper
What did I do about it?
I did nothing about it.
TAP was this technology American party or whatever they call it.
unidentified
Well, but you were a resource.
john captain crunch draper
And I'm Kirk and my views and their views differ in many respects.
They have asked me on occasion to write several articles on certain things, and I thought about it.
And I wrote a few things, but I didn't write anything that was very detrimental to American society, if you know what I mean.
art bell
All right, look, here's a friend of yours, Captain.
It says, God bless you, man.
You have my hero, Ma Bell's Antichrist.
I'm just 23 years old, but I am a student of hacker and computer history.
And they still sell the whistle.
Read the magazine 2600.
You'll find a lot of interesting stuff.
And by the way, he says, Art, you're in the latest Wired magazine.
I am in Wired.
And they want to ask you the following, or give you credit for the following, and see if you want to take credit for it.
Had Captain Crunch not done what he did, it would not have led to Steve Jobs, and we would not have the Mac computer.
And as a dedicated Mac user, I'd like to say thanks to Crunch, Bill in Portland.
Would you take credit for that?
john captain crunch draper
I don't know that I could really take credit for that, because I admit I've known Steve Jobs and Wozniak long before they started Apple Computer.
Jobs was really not into the blue box as much as Woz was.
Woz was the one that was really into it.
art bell
So you can't take credit for the Mac.
john captain crunch draper
I really honestly couldn't take credit for that.
It wasn't far-fetched.
art bell
No, but you may have launched his interest further into the direction he was going.
john captain crunch draper
That could have very well launched his interest in that general direction, sure.
art bell
Sure.
By the way, everybody, the webpage is now fully back up, and it's got a link to Captain Crunch's.
So if you want to go up on my webpage, you will see a link already installed going to Captain Crunch's.
And to give you some idea of the traffic we take, Captain, over a typical weekend we take about a quarter million hits.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, my website's been averaging about 1,000 hits an hour.
art bell
About 1,000 an hour.
Okay.
john captain crunch draper
I'm sure the well can handle that no problem.
art bell
The well, yes, I'm sure it can.
john captain crunch draper
They've got a T3 link with a 25-megabit pipe directly into it, so I'm pretty sure it'll handle the throughput.
art bell
Well, it's going to be busy.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
art bell
All right.
john captain crunch draper
Go ahead.
unidentified
I've got a couple of recent things for you.
Since the blue box, they've come out with the red box and the green box.
Really?
And they have plans, and I'm not even sure if they've already made it, for a gold box.
john captain crunch draper
Really?
unidentified
With all the new technology and the digital lines and stuff like that, will allow you to tap into the different lines and stuff.
Oh, man.
I don't see them anymore for just boxes.
art bell
Caller, have you fooled with these kinds of things?
unidentified
I've tried to play around with them, but I mean, I'm not much into that.
art bell
Alright, what was that, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
I asked the caller what the gold box was.
unidentified
The gold box had plans so that anything that was attached to, like, that phone line, or if somebody's called into and you're talking to somebody, it would make every phone around there ring.
And it's happened where it would make the entire neighborhood light.
All the phones would start ringing.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, my God.
Never heard of that.
Well.
I've heard a lot of strange stuff in my life.
art bell
In other words, Captain, it's still going on.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, there's no doubt that it's going on.
I mean, look at the publicity that Kevin Metnick got with his antics with the phones.
art bell
Will it be true, do you think, Captain, with PGP and the advances, all the advances, are the hackers always going to manage to keep up or either be a step of or one step behind those people trying to keep people like you used to be, used to be, out?
john captain crunch draper
It's always going to be that way.
There's always going to be one group going to go out and figure something else out, and then they're going to come out and counter it with something else.
art bell
Well, one of the reasons I asked you whether you kept up with telephone company technology was because you are now jobless.
I mean, if the phone company still, to this day, would come to you and offer you some kind of work because it's still going on, would you be receptive?
john captain crunch draper
I would be receptive to that.
art bell
You would?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Well, I've got a few connections in the phone company, and a lot of phone company people, trust me on this, listen to this program.
So if you want to take this opportunity to say something nice about the phone company, are you there?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
I heard a big crunch sound on the line, Captain.
Now, why don't you say something nice about the phone company so we don't lose you during the next break?
unidentified
Well.
art bell
This is your big chance, Captain.
Come on.
john captain crunch draper
What can I say nice about them?
art bell
Something, something.
john captain crunch draper
Anything nice.
art bell
I mean, there are many phone companies now, right?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
That's not exactly nice.
In fact, even AT ⁇ T isn't so happy about being split apart.
unidentified
So.
art bell
I mean, there must be, surely, there must be one nice thing, you could say, but one nice thing.
I mean, they...
I'll help you, John.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
art bell
I've been to a lot of other countries.
I'm getting ready to travel again.
Come here.
john captain crunch draper
You know what would be really nice?
art bell
Wait, don't stop me, John.
I'm trying to say something nice for you.
Compared to other countries, the Bell system, MCI, all the current to big phone companies make other countries' phone systems look like dog poop.
john captain crunch draper
Well, the quality of the connections are definitely good, and that's something nice to say.
There you are.
I got something else to say, too.
unidentified
What?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
Now, it sounds like a conference is going on there.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
Somebody's come up here and needs to use this phone to make an emergency call.
art bell
An emergency call.
john captain crunch draper
Could I just finish this one thing real quick?
Yeah, okay.
art bell
Is it going to be a long call?
I don't want to keep anybody away from an emergency here.
john captain crunch draper
So we'll find out.
art bell
We've got the captain, you see, on a phone.
unidentified
Yeah, can I just finish this one sentence first?
john captain crunch draper
Okay, one thing I wanted to say was that I traveled a lot and I went to Australia and the phone infrastructure there is amazing.
A lot of the phones there have data jacks you can plug your laptop in and get your email.
art bell
Sure.
john captain crunch draper
In this country, they don't allow that.
art bell
Right.
john captain crunch draper
Where can you find a data jack to plug into a phone and check your email?
Come on, you guys of the phone company, provide us with our data jacks.
art bell
Well, I mean, you can use a data jack.
How about on a cellular phone?
Now, there's more technology that's come along.
Look, I don't want to keep anybody from an emergency call.
Does he think he can get this done in about five or six minutes?
john captain crunch draper
Do you think you can, sir?
unidentified
Do you think you can get this done in five or six minutes?
john captain crunch draper
Okay, yeah, he can.
All right, then I'll do you get ready to call me back?
art bell
Yeah, I'm going to release the phone right now so he can make his emergency call, or maybe you can even help him.
Don't do it, John.
And we'll call you back.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, call me back in, let's say, five minutes, okay?
art bell
Yes, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, bye.
art bell
Five minutes it is.
Trunk 4-5.
My guest is Captain Crunch, and I think he'll be back.
unidentified
The Art Bell Show on Super Talk Aven, 29-7, WTN.
art bell
I think that we have got the captain back.
Let's find out.
Captain, are you there?
john captain crunch draper
Yep.
All right, cool.
art bell
It came right at a break, so it was fine.
I take it the emergency got taken care of.
john captain crunch draper
It sure did.
art bell
All right, excellent.
john captain crunch draper
All parties are happy.
art bell
All the parties are happy.
john captain crunch draper
Where were we talking about here?
art bell
Well, we were talking to callers, so let's go back to that.
First-time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hello.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I'm calling from Houston.
art bell
Houston, Texas.
All right.
unidentified
I have a question.
Actually, I have two questions.
My first question, Captain, I was wondering if you had any sort of relationship, whether it was positive or negative, with Mitnik or Roscoe during the break-in at Cosmos back in the early 80s.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
I remember getting a call from Susan Thunder, I believe, at one of the conferences.
They had an AT ⁇ T conference bridge set up at one point.
I was at that time living in Hawaii.
I did, believe, get another call shortly after that, a few months after I'd returned back to the mainland.
And that was probably about it.
I hadn't really had no contact at all with Netnik.
Netnik came at a much later time, nor have I I've actually I recall talking to him one time, but it was a very brief conversation.
It was with another person, and that was it.
He wasn't that interested in talking to me.
What about Roscoe?
Roscoe I talked with.
I actually visited Roscoe at one point.
art bell
Okay, now none of the rest of us know who these people are.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I actually visited him.
Very smart individual, this Roscoe guy.
He seemed to know quite a lot.
unidentified
Did y'all because I've just been reading a whole bunch of books on a lot of the hackers back in the early 80s and stuff.
And it seems like there was a tight-knit group of people back then, but for some reason or another, there was a lot of backstabbing also.
And you had to care.
john captain crunch draper
From what I understand, I believe this happened in 83, 84.
There were what we called the L.A. Wars.
art bell
The L.A. Wars?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, this.
It seems like a warring faction of the hackers.
art bell
Well, now, wait a minute.
What does that mean?
I mean, what is that like?
john captain crunch draper
Well, they were doing all sorts of naughty things to each other.
I'm not sure that it actually erupted in L.A., per se, but that number of people in L.A. were having their differences.
And they were resolving their differences in hacker ways by doing certain things to each other.
I don't know what they were doing, probably changing each other's phone numbers or doing things to some extent.
art bell
So, in other words, playing havoc with each other's phones.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, pretty much.
art bell
Well, you would think it would be a tight-knit group, and the enemy would be either the phone company or the FBI or feds or whatever, but not each other.
john captain crunch draper
Obviously, the hacker wars did draw quite a bit of attention to these people.
art bell
I see.
All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
Hey there, this is Pseudo-Spy from Washington State, and I want to say hello to Pound 2600.
john captain crunch draper
Yes, Pound 2600.
You're talking about the RSC channel?
unidentified
Yes, IRC.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
unidentified
First off, I had to ask you a question about the Esquire article.
john captain crunch draper
You know, I refute the Esquire article in my webpage.
unidentified
Yeah, I kind of I saw that a little bit in there.
Didn't you come right out and say that half of that he kind of misquoted from you?
john captain crunch draper
There were quite a few places in there that he misquoted.
Mostly it was just due to just inaccurate information.
I refute it all on my webpage.
So link up to my webpage and you'll see it in there.
I also have a link to the Esquire article as well.
art bell
Oh, you can read the Esquire article?
john captain crunch draper
From my webpage, yeah.
art bell
Oh, cool.
How did they treat you in that article?
I mean, were you sort of the king of the bad guys?
john captain crunch draper
That was sort of like the depiction that Ron did when he wrote about it.
art bell
I see.
Oh, there you are, caller.
unidentified
Art?
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
I had a couple comments for you, too.
I don't know if you know this, but you can still do some pretty strange stuff with the phone company, and the S Blue Boxes still do.
art bell
Yeah, wait a minute, we don't really want to promote the idea of doing that, do we, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
But like he points out, I always keep pointing out to those people that email me.
You know, I mean, I get a lot of email.
People still call me up, and you would be surprised how many people will Email me asking me questions about blue boxes.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
unidentified
Well, the old sidebar doesn't, crossbar doesn't work anymore, but there is a way to do it.
art bell
All right, well, I'm going to leave.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I'm sure there is.
art bell
Hey, Captain, when people email you asking for help with blue boxes and such, how do you respond now?
Do you have a form response, or do you take pity on them?
I mean, surely you don't help people out anymore, do you?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, no.
I usually tell them, you know, don't try this at home kind of attitude.
art bell
Captain Crunch no longer does this sort of thing.
Thank you for your email.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, basically.
I mean, I have mentioned to most people that write about, you know, I say that, you know, they don't work like they used to work, but at the same time, I don't go out there and advocate its use.
I try to be really careful.
art bell
Captain Crunch has done his time and doesn't want to do more.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, exactly.
And come on, you guys out there when you send the email.
I mean, some of these messages I'm getting are just ridiculous.
unidentified
Really?
john captain crunch draper
But I do reply to all messages.
art bell
Have they now turned around to the point where they're saying, what a lousy traitor you are to the system?
john captain crunch draper
I've had quite a few hackers say that, yeah.
art bell
Yeah, I bet.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
Yes, this is Dark Knight from 503, Oregon.
art bell
Oh, area code 503.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I know you, Dark Knight.
unidentified
Yeah, probably off the DEF CON.
Yeah, don't you?
Okay, yeah.
Well, Captain, how was DEF CON?
john captain crunch draper
Wait a minute, Alan.
art bell
One at a time.
john captain crunch draper
How was the DEF CON conference this last weekend?
unidentified
Right, Captain.
So is my buddy Seven.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah, you know, Seven.
art bell
Do I sense we have adversaries here?
unidentified
Um, yeah, well, I guess you can say so, Art.
I'm a big listener of you, but uh, Captain, my main thing is, why is your ego so big after 30 years?
Seven and I both ask you that.
art bell
Well, wait a minute now.
I've said more grandiose things about him than he's said about himself.
unidentified
Yeah, but I mean, you're still coming off like you're the top cheese guy.
And you don't do anything anymore.
Well, come back there.
john captain crunch draper
Of course I don't do anything anymore.
What do you want me to do?
Go back to jail?
unidentified
No, guy, I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that, you know, you don't need to come across like that, you know.
And you've come across pretty poorly.
art bell
Well, how would you have him come across?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm looking for suggestions.
Should I say the same thing that Seven said on Channel 4 yesterday or day before yesterday or whenever he was on TV last Saturday night?
What do you mean?
art bell
I missed it too.
What did he basically say?
Norm, maybe you better not tell me.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I don't exactly know for word for word what he said, but I do hearing Channel 4 mention some of his services that he performs.
art bell
Services?
john captain crunch draper
And it was pretty good if you asked me.
art bell
I see.
All right, so it's obvious a lot of this is still going on, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah, I'm sure it is.
art bell
I mean, just from the phone calls I'm getting here, this sounds like a lot of inside.
Why is it so cutthroat, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
I don't know why.
And it's a good question.
art bell
I mean, it's so self-destructive.
john captain crunch draper
It's very self-destructive.
In fact, I would say a good portion of the hackers that get busted have been busted as a result of their actions against each other.
It's like a death wish or something.
art bell
Death wish, yeah.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi.
unidentified
Hello.
Hello.
This is Dr. Don from Oregon.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
And my question is, I listened earlier when, Captain Crunch, you were talking about the technology's been here for quite some time to tap phone lines instantly, like six years, you said, or something.
And my question is, well, I just saw something on the news the other night on CNN where President Clinton was stating this new supercomputer that IBM is commissioned to build, and they said that it's amazing speed.
Now, don't quote me because I can't remember exactly what he said, but he said the calculation time in one second would be equivalent to someone with the hand calculator to do the same task would take like over 30,000 years.
art bell
Yeah, I heard this, that they were about to come out with a computer 100,000 times faster or something like that.
unidentified
Go online in 97 or 98.
art bell
Yeah.
unidentified
Well, okay, well, this is something I was talking to my dad last night, and he listens to UART a lot.
And, you know, it just popped in my head.
I thought, well, whoa, what are we going to use that for?
And what is its capabilities?
They were saying it would model weather and predict hurricanes and stuff.
But, you know, my question for Captain Crunch is, are you aware of technology that not only would tap a call, but could it not be possible to log in every phone call and record it, crunch it, store it, associate it with your phone number and then go back a year later and say, okay, I want to listen to all the...
art bell
That's a good question.
john captain crunch draper
There is a logistical problem in that, and it would take one heck of a lot of mass storage.
art bell
I suppose it would, but we are getting to the age where a lot of mass storage, truly gigantic amounts of storage, I mean, even in the private home computer market, it's getting pretty incredible.
So imagine what our government could do.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and the super fast computer he was talking about would probably make it almost feasible to crack shorter key sizes of PVP.
art bell
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Good morning.
art bell
Good morning.
Where are you?
unidentified
Nashville, Tennessee.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Captain Crunch, sir.
john captain crunch draper
Yes.
unidentified
Do you like Howard Stern?
john captain crunch draper
Howard Stern.
art bell
Have you ever heard of Howard Stern, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
I've heard reports about him.
Good or bad?
Both.
art bell
Take it on, Captain.
There you go.
That's a Stern call.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi.
john captain crunch draper
Hi.
Captain Crunch?
Yeah.
Are you familiar with the Jolly Rogers cookbook?
That has come across my attention, actually.
I believe somebody was actually mentioning that to me in an email message a couple weeks ago.
Yeah, I was wondering if it was you that wrote it, because there's a lot of mentioned, I mean, there's a lot of...
I'd have to really look at it to tell you.
Do you happen to have a URL where it's located on the web?
Why don't you send me some email?
I own a computer of my own, but there's a bulletin board called Books for a Free People in all capital letters.
Books for a Free People.
You can search that and find it.
It'll say books the government don't want you to read or something like that.
art bell
All right.
Listen, Captain, I actually would like to ask you about this myself.
Now, we are really in a terrible age.
Bombings here, bombings there, airplanes, this, Atlanta, the whole business.
You know, the militia groups and all the rest of it.
And the government is now, obviously, with its new terrorism bill, the press is on again, and the president wants this and that.
How do you feel about that?
Is it going to be a horrible intrusion on our privacy, or is this awful stuff going on, in your opinion, does it justify what they're getting ready to do?
john captain crunch draper
Well.
art bell
From an old hacker.
john captain crunch draper
I certainly don't want to have my private email read by anybody, hackers included.
At the same time, I certainly don't want to be in an airplane and have it blow up underneath my feet.
art bell
That is the quandary.
john captain crunch draper
So that's the other edge of the sword.
So what can you do about it?
art bell
Well, if you were the guy in charge, captain in charge, what would you do?
I mean, on the one side, the public screaming at you, things are blowing up.
On the other, you're trying not to step on their privacy.
So it is an interesting perspective from one who act.
What would you do?
john captain crunch draper
That is a very good question.
art bell
I know.
john captain crunch draper
It takes an awful lot of thought on that one.
What would I do?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
I mean, you were total anti-establishment in every way, and yet even you have got to realize that we're facing people who want to kill us.
john captain crunch draper
Uh, yeah.
Uh, yeah.
Well, you think about how many times somebody's going to be using some communication channel to organize this thing.
art bell
Exactly.
john captain crunch draper
And are they, you know, I mean, is any self-respecting terrorist going to go out there and use the telephone and brag about something that he's going to blow up?
art bell
No, but he sure as hell might use PGP on the internet to coordinate the thing with his buddies.
I mean, let's lay it out here.
john captain crunch draper
That's a possibility.
art bell
Yeah.
Yeah, it sure is.
Well, think about that one, Captain.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
john captain crunch draper
Calling from Galveston, Texas.
art bell
Galveston, all right?
unidentified
Sir.
I want to ask the captain if his life has ever been threatened.
art bell
Oh, that's a good question.
John, has your life ever been on the line?
unidentified
I mean, has anybody ever threatened to...
art bell
No?
john captain crunch draper
No.
art bell
I mean, hacking is dangerous, but it shouldn't be life-threatening.
john captain crunch draper
I agree.
art bell
Yeah, all right.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
Oh, yeah, Tyler, San Francisco.
john captain crunch draper
Yes, sir.
I've heard about a box.
unidentified
I don't know what they call them, blue, red, or purple, but a friend of mine told me there's actually boxes out that can turn the phones into a home, into microphones, without having to bug the home.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that's called an infinity bug.
It requires some wiring on the phone in order to work.
art bell
Oh, so they can't just do that from the office, then?
john captain crunch draper
No, but they'd have to actually, like, like w uh modify the phone s to some extent to have that work.
In other words, somebody would have to, in effect, almost break into your apartment and replace the handset with another handset that would maybe have a live microphone in it.
art bell
That's comforting because nobody wants to think that somebody on the other end is just listening to a phone that is hung up.
God, that's awful.
All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
john captain crunch draper
How you doing?
art bell
Okay, where are you?
unidentified
I'm in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
I'd like to know, is there any way we could tell if our own home lines are being tapped?
art bell
Ooh, that's a really good question.
john captain crunch draper
It's not really possible to tell if your phone is being tapped.
art bell
It's not?
john captain crunch draper
No.
art bell
Well, then, yeah, but they sell these little gizmos that you can put on a line and supposed to fire.
john captain crunch draper
Well, all these gizmos do is measure the line resistance.
And if somebody were to pick up an extension phone, the voltage changes in these gizmos detect it.
art bell
But a really good tap.
john captain crunch draper
A really good tap that was placed on the phone line at the central office would be almost undetectable.
It would be virtually undetectable.
art bell
Yeah, and it's funny, as much as we sit here and talk about a click on the phone or whatever, you'd never hear a click, would you?
john captain crunch draper
No, that's true.
art bell
My guess is that plenty of offices are listening to us right this moment.
I'm sure the people...
Do you think that they occasionally listen to this or that?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I'm sure of it.
I mean, but they're not going to tell anybody.
They're certainly not going to tell their boss.
However, the phone company also has got a pretty effective, so they claim, a pretty effective way of monitoring their employees.
For instance, it's not uncommon for the phone company to monitor the operators and how they perform by doing spot check monitoring of calls.
But they don't monitor the calls primarily to learn what people are talking about.
They only monitor the calls long enough to learn that the operator is doing her job correctly and that she's processing the call fast enough.
art bell
Right.
Captain, whoever it was who wrote earlier called you the Antichrist of the phone company.
Would you acknowledge that title?
john captain crunch draper
I would tend to, the way things are going these days, I would almost tend to believe that.
art bell
All right, listen, we're at the hour.
Can you hold on?
john captain crunch draper
Sure, I can hold on to that.
art bell
All right, we'll do one more then.
My guest is Captain Crunch, John Draper, a legend certainly in his own time.
I'm Mark Bell.
This is CBC.
unidentified
CBC.
art bell
All right, we'll be right back.
unidentified
Summit WTF.
art bell
Back now to the captain.
Are you there?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
All right.
Excellent.
Captain, here we go.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
I'm calling from Hawaii.
art bell
From Hawaii.
All right.
unidentified
Now, my question had to do with red boxes and AT ⁇ T. All right.
And I was wondering, I was using the red box, and I was wondering if you think AT ⁇ T listens into the conversations all the time.
art bell
You mean of people using the boxes?
unidentified
I mean, anytime.
art bell
Oh, anytime.
We kind of just covered that.
And the answer was sort of probably yes.
I mean, it's their work.
john captain crunch draper
Well, a lot of the calls now are being handled automatically, so it's probably a lot less likely now than before.
Yeah.
art bell
Captain, listen to this.
It probably says it pretty well.
This is for you.
Sadly, it is very cutthroat today.
Everyone is egotistical, vengeful, and doing or saying the wrong thing in the scene can get you in great heaps of trouble.
It's almost like street gangs, in a sense, one group trying to take control of the NPA.
But it's not too hard to separate the men from the boys.
Let me tell you, the ones that talk the most are the least dangerous.
It's the ones that you don't hear, the ones that wouldn't touch IRC 2600 with a 10-foot pole.
That's where the concern ought to be, not these kids talking about boxes, making phones ring and free calls.
I try to be humble.
Well, when I hear these guys today putting down one of the pioneers, like the captain, it bugs me a bit.
Phone freaking is wonderful, to put it bluntly, but it's not meant for the loose-lipped.
And Captain, I was delighted when I turned on art tonight and heard you.
Captain, you are a legend.
Say what you will.
I understand completely, but you've got your fans.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, well, like they said, you know, about loose-lips.
unidentified
I remember an old World War II slow that loose lips think shit.
art bell
That's right.
That's right.
Or this, Captain, if, do you know anything about a modem device called the modem jammer?
He says, I understand the principle, but I don't believe it really works.
Is there such a thing as a modem jammer?
I've never heard of it.
john captain crunch draper
Modem jammer?
Yeah.
You know what to mean?
unidentified
Okay.
art bell
All right.
Let us move ahead here.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Uh hey, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
Where are you, sir?
john captain crunch draper
Uh, Madison, West Pansy.
unidentified
All right.
Um, I was just wondering, I've I've heard some rumors that you developed the Tron box.
I was wondering if that was true.
john captain crunch draper
Uh, the Tron box?
Can you fill me in on what that does?
unidentified
Well, I guess we probably didn't make it then.
Uh it's kinda it's used to fool the electric company.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, okay.
unidentified
Kind of reduce your electric company.
john captain crunch draper
No, I'm afraid I can't take credit for that.
And the last caller?
The what?
art bell
The last caller.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
What about him?
unidentified
Oh, I forgot what I was going to say.
All right.
art bell
All right.
Well, you blank out sometimes.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
612, Minneapolis, Minnesota.
art bell
All right.
Everybody's giving his area a code.
unidentified
This is Liquidist from Powell and 2600.
art bell
Oh, geez, here we go.
unidentified
Former blue boxer.
art bell
Former, of course.
unidentified
Former, of course, after small problem.
art bell
You too, huh?
unidentified
No.
Well, they didn't get me, but the question is here.
Let me get this straight here.
You're, Captain, you were the one that had a little fun with the whistle that hit the proper tone.
art bell
Yep, then a little fun with the blue box, and then not as much fun with the FBI.
unidentified
I've just been having this thought here.
You blast the tone on the whistle, correct?
And then how do you dial your KP and your ST and your C five tones?
art bell
No, we're not going to give instructions on the radio.
unidentified
Well, send an instruction.
art bell
Yes, it is too.
No, we're not going to do that.
We're discussing this in a very general way, not a specific way.
The captain doesn't answer email.
How do you expect him to answer on the radio here, national radio, about things he ought not be talking about?
Right, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Well.
art bell
That is right, isn't it?
unidentified
Well, the thing...
john captain crunch draper
And if he wants to email me the question, I can probably answer him to some extent.
Oh, Lordy.
art bell
All right.
john captain crunch draper
But the thing is, you know, there's I mean, all of this information that I'm giving is already published in public manuals.
art bell
Well, then, one easy way for you to do this without sticking your neck out would be to reference them to certain publications.
john captain crunch draper
That's what I do.
And in fact, even when people email me, I'll sometimes often refer to them, I'll refer them to a website that's got the information.
art bell
So while you're not really doing this anymore, Captain, it's not totally fair to say that you've lost all interest in it, is it?
john captain crunch draper
No, no.
You see, it's a little hard to lose interest when you're surrounded by millions of people that are interested in it.
art bell
Yes, I do understand.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you, please?
unidentified
I'm in Phoenix.
art bell
Phoenix, Arizona.
All right.
unidentified
And my name is Linda.
I'm Linda.
I'm an operator for the phone company.
art bell
Oh, my goodness.
unidentified
I was just wondering, you know, when he first started talking about when the captains started talking about the blue box that began in 1972, did it, no, some other people were talking about the red box.
Is that, did the name change?
Is it the same thing, or is that different?
john captain crunch draper
Let me give you the difference.
Okay.
As an operator, you know that when you handle coin calls and they put coins in the phone, you hear these little beep beep beep beeps.
Right.
Well, those little beep beep beep beeps can often be generated by the red box.
unidentified
That's called red box, okay, because we do have that code that we put in if we think it's a red box.
What's that?
If we think it's a red box, there's a code that we put in.
art bell
No kidding.
unidentified
Yeah, so they're aware of that.
Because operators can say we can tell that we can see that change.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
unidentified
Yeah, because we're not really collecting the coins, and they think we are, so we kind of trick them into, you know.
Yeah, and operators are instructive to let the call go through, is that right?
Yeah, if it sounds like it's legitimate and we really can't prove it to ourselves, we have to let it go through, yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, but then there's no way to really know.
unidentified
We suspect it.
We have a way we do it, and I don't want to say it, but.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, you punch in a code.
art bell
Code, and then they keep track of it.
Since you're an operator, Linda, it's great to have you here with us.
I want to ask you a question.
How much of this, Linda, in modern day, do you think is going on?
unidentified
Every day.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Every day.
Not just the red box coins, that kind of stuff goes on.
john captain crunch draper
I'm surprised they still work, Linda.
unidentified
Huh?
john captain crunch draper
I'm surprised they still work on it.
unidentified
It does, you know, and it's all on overseas, you know, mostly overseas calls.
And also, we get, I don't know how they do it.
This is kind of really strange to me, but they access somehow into hotels or main switch operators, and then they go, and they get a free line, and then we can place calls for them anywhere, and we think that we're billing it to them, and we have no way of knowing really where they're calling from.
john captain crunch draper
Wow.
unidentified
And they do that all the time.
That's, you know.
Yeah, it happens.
I get it all the time.
It's amazing.
art bell
Have you been with the phone company for a long time, Linda?
unidentified
15 years.
art bell
Well, that's a long time.
Is this kind of thing on the increase, or is there less of it?
unidentified
It's on the increase.
art bell
On the increase?
unidentified
It's so interesting to me to listen to him, you know, the originator of it from way back then, and it's still going on.
art bell
Does the name Captain Crunch get brought up occasionally in the phone company?
unidentified
No, I've never heard that.
john captain crunch draper
No?
art bell
Yeah, probably in smoke-filled rooms.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, really.
unidentified
Places where I'm not there.
art bell
Linda, it's wonderful that you called.
Any other questions for the captain?
unidentified
No, I think that's about it.
art bell
That's it, huh?
unidentified
All right.
art bell
Thank you, Linda.
unidentified
Okay, bye-bye.
art bell
Take care.
There's a 602 area code operator.
john captain crunch draper
Hmm.
art bell
That's amazing.
She said there's more of it going on now, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Well, what can I say?
art bell
I'm shocked.
Shocked to the quick.
I mean, I thought this kind of thing with modern technology for the phone company anyway was basically a thing of the past.
john captain crunch draper
I mean, it's so easy, technically, to stop that boxes from working.
art bell
The phone company needs you, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
And I'm appalled to find that some of these techniques people are using still work.
art bell
I'm appalled, too.
And that they do.
I mean, you could save them millions of dollars.
Now, the phone company can contact you through your website, right?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
art bell
Well, I can assure you there are people on high listening right now.
So the captain is without job, right?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm crunch at well.com, so send me an email and we'll talk about it.
art bell
All right, well, and to get there, you can go to my website and jump to his.
We've got that in there now.
It's www.artbell.com.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi, I had a question and a comment.
art bell
All right, where are you?
unidentified
Los Angeles.
art bell
Los Angeles.
unidentified
I wondered if the captain was in L.A. or knows of the old party line before the 976 came in.
Called like Hobo UFO.
john captain crunch draper
I heard something about that.
unidentified
That was, yeah, they had like a busy signal going on, but everybody was calling in and could talk to each other.
This was early 80s, I guess.
art bell
Was this like where they talked over the busy signal?
unidentified
Yeah.
But then somebody was always monitoring, calling up and saying, well, if you're not going to talk, you know, clear the line.
And that was going on, but I just wondered if he was around that time.
My comment was also about AT ⁇ T. I had tried to let them know I had a skill of possibly crashing a certain new system that they were putting together.
And well, I wanted to test it.
So I called up AT ⁇ T and they gave me the New Jersey address, phone number in New Jersey.
I talked to people in New Jersey, got cartered around about five different names and people, and then they wound up sending me over to Dallas.
I called up Dallas, and another five people transferred me over, and then they said, well, write a letter to our personnel department and tell us what your service is that you can do.
And if we're looking for something like that, we'll call you.
And I say, yeah, they're going to say, let's find somebody who can crash our system.
Go through the file.
art bell
Actually, that's a very important service.
Don't underrate that service.
I would think they'd be very interested in it.
Thank you.
That's why I think they ought to give the captain a job after all these years.
Captain Crunch working for the phone company.
I mean, it would even be a good PR thing.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
I'm trying to help you here, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I appreciate that.
art bell
First time caller line.
You're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi, Art.
john captain crunch draper
I'd like to ask the captain.
I was back in the 70s, I was doing it, too.
art bell
Sure.
Where are you, sir?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I'm calling from San Francisco.
art bell
You sound too young to have been doing that in the 70s.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, thanks, but I'm 48.
art bell
Oh, wow.
john captain crunch draper
So I was doing that, and we heard a rumor that he was actually moved to satellite, and we tried to duplicate that, and we were never able to do it, and we didn't know if it was true or not.
art bell
That who was moved to satellite?
john captain crunch draper
That Captain Crunch moved a communications satellite.
Oh, I'm afraid not.
art bell
You didn't do that?
They really would have hated that, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I'm sure they would.
And I would never have done that, even if I knew how.
art bell
You would never have done it.
unidentified
No.
john captain crunch draper
I mean, the temptation to do that.
art bell
The incredible temptation of being able to move something in space wouldn't tempt you.
john captain crunch draper
Not if it would disrupt a lot of things.
Of course not.
art bell
What about if it just disrupted, like, HBO and Showtime and all of that?
john captain crunch draper
Anything.
art bell
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified
Kansas City.
art bell
Kansas City, yes, sir.
unidentified
Hey, John.
Hey, Art.
art bell
Hi.
unidentified
John might actually remember me.
I sent him a car window a couple of years back.
art bell
You sent him a car window?
unidentified
Yeah.
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, your name again?
unidentified
Vance.
Oh, yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Hi, Vance.
How you doing?
unidentified
Hey, great.
Just thought you might.
art bell
Sir, could I butt in and ask why you would send the captain a car window?
john captain crunch draper
Because he had access to a car, a window that was very hard to get.
And in Kansas City, you could get car parts there that you can't get here.
art bell
All right, I'm sorry.
I wanted to know.
Go ahead, sir.
unidentified
And somebody fussed out the captain's window, and he couldn't get one there.
Anyway, I thought Art's audience might be very interested in the toilet paper crisis story.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's on the website.
unidentified
Oh, but it's straight from the horse's mouth.
art bell
Yeah, indeed.
Straight from the horse's mouth.
What do you mean, toilet paper?
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
There was this.
I was scanning the Washington, D.C. 800 prefix.
art bell
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Looking and digging up every number I could find in Washington, D.C. You're on the air in Washington, D.C. right now.
art bell
Remember that, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
And we found a number where this person answered the phone in a very obnoxious way.
He was very rude to me when he answered the phone.
I asked him what company we reached, and he said he huffed and puffed and said, you haven't reached a company.
And he started being very hostile toward me verbally.
art bell
I see.
john captain crunch draper
And so.
art bell
Mistreating the captain.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was a little confused why anybody would want to do that when they have an 800 number used.
Back then, 800 numbers were used for companies.
Usually companies had 800 numbers, and they used them primarily to sell things.
That's right.
And why would somebody have a public number and be so rude to somebody?
art bell
Understood.
john captain crunch draper
So I had somebody else call back the number and a social engineer and tell this party that we called that we were the White Plains Tandem Switching Office and we were having some translation problems into that number.
What number have we reached?
And the man said, you reached the White House.
unidentified
What?
john captain crunch draper
And it turns out to have been the CIA crisis line into the White House, a number that the CIA uses to contact the President.
art bell
Well then no wonder they weren't so then what?
john captain crunch draper
Well what happened then during a party, that number was just one of many numbers that I'd collected and somebody said, what's this?
And I said, oh, that's the White House.
And he said, can I have it?
art bell
And he said, hey, sure.
Here you go.
So in other words.
john captain crunch draper
Well, we often traded numbers.
So I said, what have you got to trade?
So it turned out that the person who'd had the number, we were at this party.
art bell
Yes.
john captain crunch draper
And we used the verify lines to listen in on the calls, which at that time it was possible to do.
Now it's not.
Yes.
And we'd learned what the code name was for a president.
art bell
Oh, my God.
What was it then?
john captain crunch draper
Olympus.
art bell
Olympus?
That was during which administration?
john captain crunch draper
Nixon.
art bell
Nixon.
So Nixon was Olympus, and you had the phone number, and you could listen in.
Oh, my God.
Where does toilet paper come into this?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I was at a party with about 300 people, and one of the persons took the number and called it and asked for Olympus.
Now, I was in the other room at the time, and one guy ran in and got me in the room.
He says, come here, listen to this.
And just as I was walking in, he was saying, sir, we're in the middle of a national crisis, sir.
unidentified
And he said that to the president and says, what's the national crisis?
john captain crunch draper
He says, sir, we're out of toilet paper.
And he hung up.
I put that on my website.
So you'll read it in there.
art bell
So you tell me they actually got Richard Nixon on the phone?
john captain crunch draper
Well, It sounded like him.
Yeah.
And although I didn't catch all of the dialogue, this was with a bunch of us.
art bell
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
We were all just together at this party, and it was down in L.A. Well, think of these as the good old days, huh, John?
Yeah.
art bell
Uh-huh.
East of the Rockies, you're on here with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Yes, Art?
art bell
Yes, where are you, please?
unidentified
Area Coach 6156FM.
art bell
Where's that, please?
unidentified
Middle Tennessee.
john captain crunch draper
All right.
unidentified
Hey, I'd be interested in knowing if the captain can help us understand what these services like America Online and CompuServe can read back off of your computer, for example.
Can they read any information off your hard drive?
art bell
Yeah, a lot of people want to know about that, this cookie thing.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, in fact, I've been getting a lot of email on that last couple days.
I'm not exactly sure how all this stuff works.
I haven't really investigated it myself, but I know that other people have claimed, well, this cookie thing is this thing where I don't know exactly the details, but when you have a website and somebody accesses your website, you have your website usually is your files on your website are stored on a server.
And when the server, when you make a connection with the server, you run this program called the CGI program.
And it's a program that runs on the server, not on the client.
And it sends back various different things to your client, which is your Netscape program on your machine.
art bell
So in other words, what it's doing, to cut it short here, is that the website is actually making inquiries and getting information from your computer.
Do you believe that that is going on, John?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I don't really see how that can happen.
art bell
I don't either.
I've wondered about the same thing, and yet it seems as though people keep saying that it's going on.
There's a lot of accusations going on.
john captain crunch draper
You never can really tell what kind of queries are taking place on some of these net connections.
art bell
Yeah, that's true.
unidentified
I mean, you do have to have IP connections here.
art bell
Captain, Captain, hold on.
We're at the bottom of the air.
We'll be right back, all right?
unidentified
Okay, John.
Oh, my God.
You're forgiven me.
Constant.
Where is that?
art bell
Well, my guest is Captain Crunch, otherwise known as John Draper.
He's doing his time.
He'll be right back.
This is CBC.
john captain crunch draper
What the deck of this do you want?
unidentified
Art Bell, live on Supertalk FM.
99.7 WTN.
The End.
art bell
Back now to Captain Crunch.
And Captain, are you still there?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I am still.
art bell
I want to thank you for hanging in there so long.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, okay.
Great.
No problem.
No worries.
Back earlier before the break, you asked me a question about reading files off of a person's hard disk on a machine.
unidentified
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
And I've been thinking about that during the break, and a couple of comments I'd like to make on that.
art bell
All right, go.
john captain crunch draper
When you connect your machine to the net and use Netscape to go browse the web, you instigate what is called an IP socket to the Internet itself.
Now, the browser, like Netscape or Microsoft's version of it, has code that certainly knows how to go out there and read hard disks and get directories off of hard disks.
unidentified
Yikes.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, so it's, in answer to your question, it is certainly absolutely possible to do that.
But the person writing the browser would have to, of course, have integrity to do that.
Have integrity not to do that.
art bell
Not not to do it, right?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, no, no, the point I'm making now is this.
There's this new programming language out called Java.
And Java is supposed to be secure, and it's supposed to keep and prevent people from injecting viruses that run on your computer.
However, there have been numerous news reports of some security problems with Java.
I don't know whether this has been resolved or not, and I don't know whether a new security leak will be discovered in the future.
art bell
All right, I'll leave it there.
I've got a lot of callers for you, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Go ahead, let's deal with them.
art bell
First time caller line.
You're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hi, Art.
My name's Mark.
I'm calling from Hilo, Hawaii.
art bell
Hilo, Hawaii, the big island.
unidentified
Yeah, I'm listening to you on KHVH.
I can barely pick you up with my Sea Crane selected town.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I live near Hilo.
unidentified
Oh, yeah?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
Oh, okay.
Well, I'm a frequent, I've surfed the net a lot and check out Arda on his website.
And I was going to ask you about PGP encryption that you were familiar with.
Is the U.S., have they made regulations that have made encryption more or less unsafe and you should use the international version of PGP?
I've been trying to understand.
I was wondering if someone helped me out with that.
art bell
All right, what's safe, in other words?
john captain crunch draper
Well, okay.
There are several different versions of PGP.
There are U.S. domestic versions which are not allowed to be exported.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Uh-huh.
john captain crunch draper
That's right.
Our government has seemed to think that encryption is classified as a weapons, as a weapon.
And a lot of companies that get licenses to export cryptography software for handling credit card transactions and things like that actually have to become a weapons dealer legally in order for them to be able to have the ability to or the permission to sell this kind of technology overseas.
Now, PGP was originally written and developed overseas.
And in that case, a lot of the tight encryption, now these are earlier versions of PGP, 2.3 I think is one of them, or 2.1 or 2.2.
art bell
In that range, do they have varying degrees of safety?
That's really the question.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, the earlier versions of PGP I would trust more because I would tend to believe they would probably be using the idea cipher method which was developed in Europe.
I would have much more trust in that cipher.
art bell
What you're really saying, when you read between these lines, you're saying that the later versions of PGP, in your opinion, might have been designed to seem safe.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
All right.
You're going to love this call, Captain.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Who is this, please?
unidentified
This is Seven.
art bell
Seven?
unidentified
Your name has been brought up a few times tonight.
art bell
Your name has been mentioned, Seven.
Do you recognize this person, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
art bell
What seven do you have for the captain?
unidentified
I'm a San Francisco Bay resident.
I'm currently on the road calling out at Denver, Colorado.
I don't have access to the radio show at this time.
art bell
Yes, you do.
Kay Howe in Denver.
6.30 on the dial.
unidentified
6.30 on the dial.
art bell
Yep.
unidentified
I've only been here a few hours.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
Now, I believe there was an issue brought up about a television appearance I made in a San Francisco area station regarding hackers.
art bell
Somebody mentioned it, yes.
Uh-huh.
unidentified
And I don't know what that issue was, but I was basically alert about a lot of people that should call in.
art bell
Oh, okay.
Well, you're on.
So what did you say on that TV show?
unidentified
The television show was produced by Anthony Moore to basically try and give a fair shake to the hacker hysteria that's been covering the press the past couple of years.
art bell
Right.
unidentified
And he basically wanted to talk to a bunch of people that are on the inside track of the underground, people that have been around a while and have done some things, to see if that perception by the public is actually reality or if it's a bad deal, a bad shake.
They want to know exactly what the underground was like and interviewed a little over half a dozen people in the San Francisco Bay Area.
We've been one of them and try to dispel some of the myths by showing them the reality of hacking.
We aren't all bad people that we don't allow out there.
Go read people's email, destroy people's files, steal proprietary information.
And I don't know why there's an issue with that.
art bell
Seven, tell me, describe the difference between a good hacker and a bad hacker.
The bad hacker obviously destroys email, blah, blah, blah.
What is a good hacker?
unidentified
A good hacker is someone who understands the technology they have before them, the foundation of the Internet, the different tools they have available to them, the programming languages, has a fair understanding of it, and has the ability to explore the limits of the technology.
In other words, not doing what they're told to do, but exploring the boundaries, maybe finding some new uses for the Internet.
Actually being a productive member of the Internet community and designing new uses for the Internet, letting it just stay where it is now, and hoping that someone else comes along and develops something.
For example, one of the things you say good hackers have done is created the World Wide Web.
That was created by hackers because of their exploration and knowledge of the Internet.
We're able to put two and two together and come up with a new use for it.
That's the kind of thing that needs to continue to happen.
There are good hackers out there.
There are bad ones, obviously.
art bell
In the same way that I'm a ham operator, and ham operators, early in electronics, developed a lot of things that contributed to national security and the advancement of electronics generally.
unidentified
Yes.
art bell
So the amateurs dump it in the laps of the pros.
unidentified
Amateurs dump it in the laps of the pros.
Some will have different motivations.
I mean, it all comes down to the intent of the individual hacker.
art bell
Well, Seven, what is your take on Captain Crunch as a legendary beginning hacker?
unidentified
Captain Crunch, in my opinion, was the one that brought freakdoms basically to the masses.
He was the one that originally brought it to the masses.
He wasn't by far the first freak because he would say he could stay on the telephone.
art bell
No, but one of the grandmasters, eh?
unidentified
One of the grandmasters, yes.
He did bring it out to the masters.
He was the one that took the little underground technology or basically in the hands of the select few and showed everyone out there.
It's like, hey, look at this.
You know, here's something we can learn about, exploit, learn something from.
And, I mean, I have respect for him in that fact, despite what he may think.
I do have respect for him in that aspect that he did bring it to the masses.
art bell
All right, Captain, do you have any big problem with Seven?
He said pretty nice things about you.
unidentified
Not a problem.
art bell
No?
unidentified
I think there's been some communication between us, but I don't feel any ill will towards them, despite the fact that you have a kind of a temper that gets out of hand sometimes.
Oh, really, Captain, do you have a temper?
john captain crunch draper
Hey, Seven, let's get together in Frisco sometime and we'll talk it over coffee, huh?
unidentified
Yeah, no problem.
art bell
All right.
Peace.
Peace, gentlemen.
Peace.
All right.
Take care, Seven.
Thank you.
john captain crunch draper
Bye.
art bell
The famous or infamous, I'm not sure which, Seven.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hello, Mr. Bell.
art bell
Hi.
unidentified
Yes.
I had a couple of questions for Mr. Crunch.
art bell
Oh, I'm fine.
That's Captain Seven.
Where are you?
unidentified
I'm in Duluth, Minnesota.
All right.
Are you familiar with the so-called K-Rad movement, H-P-A-C, out on the internet?
john captain crunch draper
The K-Rad movement.
unidentified
Hmm.
john captain crunch draper
Not exactly.
art bell
What is that?
unidentified
Well, this is also like my little theory about the Atlanta bombings.
Basically, it's people that believe that you can solve a lot of problems by blowing stuff up.
Mostly it's like little teenagers running around proclaiming anarchy and all this crap.
I don't know.
I'm just wondering if you're, like...
art bell
No, but that...
Thank you.
That really is the dilemma, and that is it.
Yeah, but we do have a lot of these little bastards running around, as he said, thinking that it's cool to blow things up and kill people.
And, you know, this is going to bring everybody on the net, and everybody, I'm sure in circles you run in, Captain, is scared to death of the government coming in and slamming down the big hammer of oppression.
john captain crunch draper
But, you know, if things continue the way they are, I'm afraid it's going to turn into that.
art bell
It's like inevitable.
john captain crunch draper
That's what I'm afraid of.
art bell
Yeah, that's what we all ought to be afraid of.
john captain crunch draper
Exactly.
art bell
And so, I guess to me the difference between a good hacker and a bad hacker is a good hacker who heard of somebody who was planning to do something really awful like that, they'd turn him in.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
art bell
Yeah.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi.
unidentified
How you doing, Bart?
art bell
All right.
Where are you?
unidentified
Fresno, California.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Well, I was kind of curious.
I had a couple questions, but the first one was something that I had heard, and I'm just wondering if you guys had heard anything about it.
You were talking about the supercomputer the government might have or is developing, the tap lines, and I had heard that they are preparing some kind of a computer that will, or maybe it's even in existence now, that will key in on certain words over all the phones, over all the phones in the, well, I don't know, maybe in the country.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
And that they'll begin to tape at certain words.
john captain crunch draper
No, I don't know.
That was already brought up earlier.
art bell
Yeah, and it absolutely must exist because they've got the SETI project that can look at billions of frequencies.
So you can be damn sure they've got something that can look.
john captain crunch draper
It's certainly possible to do.
Yeah.
unidentified
And then another thing, too, a while back I had heard, well, I was listening to your program, Art, and there was some guy on there, and you gave his phone number out.
It was a kid that had the transformer.
This was quite some time ago that stole the transformer.
john captain crunch draper
Madman Markham.
unidentified
Yeah, a young kid.
art bell
Yeah.
unidentified
Anyhow, I talked to him.
art bell
Do you know what?
I talked to Madman Markham earlier today.
john captain crunch draper
Are you kidding?
art bell
No, I'm not kidding.
He has this giant diesel generator now, and I think Madman's getting close to going into another dimension.
I'm going to have him on the air again soon.
Don't laugh.
unidentified
Well, I know, but he's not going to get in trouble yet, is he?
art bell
No, because he's got now this giant generator.
So he says, I'm disconnected from the power company, and what I do is up to me.
And he's right, but I'm sure he's going to step through it.
unidentified
Stargate, huh?
art bell
So I want to get him on before he, you know...
unidentified
You put his number on the air, and I called him up, and he told me about this.
Well, I guess there's a code that can find out if you're being tapped.
Do you know about that code?
art bell
Yes, I do.
And I can't discuss it.
unidentified
Oh, really?
art bell
Yeah.
I thank you for the call.
There is.
Captain, are you aware there is a number you can call that will tell you with a signal, signal, sort of, I don't even want to describe it, actually, three different signals to tell whether you're being tapped locally or regionally or federally?
john captain crunch draper
I haven't really heard of this, but I wouldn't be surprised.
art bell
I know about something you don't then, huh?
I wouldn't.
john captain crunch draper
No, I said I wouldn't be surprised.
art bell
Yeah, there is such a thing.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hello, this is my kid.
Area code 808.
art bell
What does all that mean?
unidentified
That's Hawaii.
art bell
Oh, Hawaii, yes.
I'm sorry, area code 808.
Everybody's giving their area codes tonight.
unidentified
It seemed applicable.
art bell
In honor of the captain, I think.
john captain crunch draper
Very appropriate.
unidentified
Spoiler captain, sir.
john captain crunch draper
What island are you on?
unidentified
I'm on Oahu, sir.
I'm in Hawaii.
Okay.
Very briefly, I work at a small hotel here, and we had a, three weeks ago, I had a meeting with the general manager, and he was ranting and raving.
It's a small hotel, so there's only one person that staffs the front desk and does everything.
Answers phone, checks people in, check out, concierge, right?
You get real busy.
So the general manager is walking around, and he's waving this phone bill in his hand, and he's just pissed.
I mean, he's really mad.
And so what he says is there's a scam going on, and people are calling in and getting to a room in a hotel and getting, talking to the person in the room to taking the phone off the hook and leaving it off the hook.
And he says what happens is at that point they can then call around the world and he shows us the phone bill and it was three separate calls on the same day to Vietnam totaling $870.
art bell
Oh my God.
You know I've heard of this.
unidentified
Have you, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
It wouldn't surprise me.
unidentified
Well, he described it as being a box.
john captain crunch draper
They put a cheese box on his line.
A what?
And I call it a cheese box.
art bell
Cheese box.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it just ties two lines together.
unidentified
Well, we got nailed.
Sorry.
art bell
Did the phone company make good?
I mean, or did they?
unidentified
I actually didn't hear that part.
Well, you know, the operator earlier from 602 said that.
They don't really know, but, you know, I guess if you can prove that, I don't know.
art bell
Yeah, but she thank you.
She did say, though, that if they suspect, they let it go through, but they turn it over to security is what she said.
Is that right, John?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, they, well, like the operator said, when she detects something funny going on, she just punches in a code.
art bell
And that nails a lot?
john captain crunch draper
I'm sure it identifies the line somehow.
art bell
Marks it, as it were.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hello.
art bell
Hello, you're on the air, sir.
unidentified
Oh, good.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I'm in rural Colorado.
My name's Dave.
art bell
Hi, Dave.
unidentified
Yeah, I've been trying to get on Bell's webpage from American Online.
art bell
Yes.
unidentified
And I connected first couple times, and now I'm getting a message back saying that the server is...
art bell
Listen, it's a problem with America Online.
Our webpage is up, but AOL is having some kind of problem connecting to it.
unidentified
Oh, they're saying it's you.
art bell
Well, they'll get it worked out.
It'll be all okay soon.
All right?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
All right, sir.
unidentified
What about I've been trying to get you through CompassServe and been having the same damn problem.
I can't get through you just.
art bell
Yeah, I got a call from the person who runs my webpage earlier, and he said there's a widespread problem going on right now.
And it may still be going on.
john captain crunch draper
Well, you know, maybe there's so many people trying to get on the web page right now that it's like overloading the server.
art bell
Yeah, that's entirely possible, Captain.
That's happened many times to us.
West of the Rockies.
You're on the air with Captain Grunch.
john captain crunch draper
Aye.
unidentified
Hey, this is Rick, 602KFYI in Phoenix.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Okay.
Hey, I'd like to ask the captain, you always advertise these digital phones, 900 megahertz.
art bell
That's right.
unidentified
How foolproof is that power being tapped into?
art bell
It's a good question.
Captain, we have a digital...
We do have a fully digital phone.
I mean, at 900 megahertz, this thing is totally digital.
If you listen to it on a scanner, it's nothing but white noise.
And it's...
But still, they can tap your phone at the central office, right?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, but it's more or less a software tap.
art bell
Exactly.
Exactly.
So the only...
john captain crunch draper
Right.
art bell
You don't hear anything.
It's just white noise.
john captain crunch draper
Right.
art bell
Not even human sounding.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hi, RMD.com.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
Alias Commander Keyboard here.
art bell
Commander Keyboard?
john captain crunch draper
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
Calling from Las Vegas, Art.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
And just tried to get through on your video line.
Are you still using that?
art bell
I don't have it up at the moment.
unidentified
Okay, that was a really exciting program, and I'm one of your beta testers out here.
art bell
Yes, sir.
We'll get it up again.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, has anybody gotten into my site yet?
unidentified
Yes, I have.
I just went there and sent you an email.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, and you're from Las Vegas?
unidentified
Yeah, so I hope I'm one of you.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
Uh-huh.
john captain crunch draper
I'll be looking for your email tomorrow when I check in.
unidentified
Yeah, I hope I'm one of your 20 people that can sign up for your Internet Service Guide and web page construction.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, good.
unidentified
Well, that's cool.
So anyway, Captain, I feel that you're more of a colonel now than a captain.
john captain crunch draper
See, I've been promoted.
unidentified
And I did go up to your web page.
I couldn't access your web page on AOL and tried chatting with people briefly in the grassy knoll.
Got off of AOL and went on.
I have five different servers.
john captain crunch draper
Lucky you.
unidentified
Well, I'm trying them out, and I have unlimited access with one.
art bell
Yeah, I'm hearing the problem is with AOL.
unidentified
I use AOL because you can have five email addresses and up to two megs of web storage space for each address.
art bell
If you say any more, it'll constitute an advertisement.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
unidentified
Well, we need to start artbill.com.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that's right.
unidentified
So anyway, I accessed your page art from my other server.
It works just fine.
A little bit slow on some of the pages, you know, with images because I'm using 14.4.
But I would suggest that anybody goes to web crawler and pull up, oh, I typed in Captain Crunch for search, and I got, because I didn't quite catch the web page address or, you know, I couldn't hyperlink to it.
art bell
Well, a good search engine will find it with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Oh, found it easily.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, okay.
unidentified
And so.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I got myself listed in about 15 or 20 different databases.
unidentified
Yeah, so you're the Crunch Man.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
Right on.
art bell
Yeah, the Crunch Man.
unidentified
And so browse that page and everything.
art bell
Pretty good stuff?
unidentified
Excellent, excellent.
I'm going to go back up there and read the Esquire article right now.
art bell
All right.
Well, listen, thank you for the call.
Captain, we're at the end of the hour.
I'll tell you, I've got one more hour to show.
If you don't have anything to do, I'll keep it.
john captain crunch draper
What time is it now?
unidentified
It's 3 o'clock almost.
john captain crunch draper
So we got one more hour to go?
art bell
Yeah, why not?
Can you do it?
You can do it, Captain.
Stay right there.
unidentified
997WTN.
art bell
Now back to Captain Crunch.
Captain, are you there?
john captain crunch draper
Yep.
art bell
All right.
I've got a fax here from, it says, good morning, Art.
I work as a telephone operator during the graveyard shift at the grand Well, a hotel in San Francisco.
I'm not going to give the name.
I can always tell, she says, when a PBX hacker is calling into, well, a hotel in San Francisco, I'm not going to give the name.
I can always tell, she says, when a PBX hacker is calling in to access a hotel line, most common way is they pose as a Pac-Bell or AT ⁇ T employee, and they say they're having a problem calling his or her office and will call our hotel and ask to be connected to an operator with a telephone company.
Oh, I see what they're doing now.
I see what they're doing.
So is that a new way to hack to get free calls?
john captain crunch draper
Apparently so.
art bell
Oh, shh.
john captain crunch draper
I've known for quite some time that ever since they did the 10XXX codes, those like 10288 for AT ⁇ T, you know, the dial before the number.
Yes.
A lot of the hotel PBXs were programmed to ignore those.
And it turns out that a lot of hackers would go to a hotel phone and do 10XXX and then dial out on the hotel phone.
It wouldn't know how to handle it, so it just put the call through.
art bell
So in other words, that guy whose hotel manager was going crazy probably was correct.
That's how they did it.
All right.
john captain crunch draper
Well, that's just an example, although that sticker code that I gave probably wouldn't work.
art bell
Yeah, okay.
Mr. Bell, please ask Mr. Draper if he has seen the movie Sneakers and what he thinks of it, especially the character Whistler.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
Well, yeah, in fact, I've seen Sneakers probably four or five weeks before everybody else saw it.
I was invited by the movie publishing company to actually be at a special showing.
Wow.
And it was quite interesting.
The writer who wrote the movie actually says he based some of the script of the movie on some papers that I had written in jail.
So a lot of the stuff in the movie was sort of based on me as a character, but not quite my story.
art bell
They took their hints from it.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and the very next day, after the movie was shown or debuted, I got interviewed on This Morning America.
Really?
Yeah, talked about the movie.
art bell
Boy, you have to do it.
john captain crunch draper
And I mentioned on this, I was actually men I mentioned to the the host of This Morning America, I said, you know, you should check out my story.
It's a lot more interesting.
So anybody out there who wants to do a good movie deal, I'm available.
art bell
You're available generally from the phone company to Hollywood.
Well, you're being heard in Hollywood right now on KBC in Los Angeles.
So maybe somebody will...
That would make a hell of a movie.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, I would certainly cooperate.
Would you?
art bell
Yeah.
You'd be, what, the technical advisor?
john captain crunch draper
Well, yeah, I've been the TA to WizKids.
art bell
Really?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
Wow, I'm learning all these things about you.
So you've already really had sort of a Hollywood connection.
But in terms of, I mean, you know...
john captain crunch draper
I mean, all these guys would do is send me the script, and I kind of like look it over and comment on it and send it back.
art bell
But, I mean, somebody ought to actually do your life.
I mean, I don't know that.
I can tell from reading.
john captain crunch draper
I put it on my website.
I put it on my website in the hopes that somebody would go out there and look at my story and say, hey, this guy's interesting.
Contact me, you know.
art bell
All right.
john captain crunch draper
My website's got kind of like the outline of my story.
I haven't gotten all my memoirs typed in yet.
It's a long process.
I've been working on my website now for a long time, and I'm constantly making changes and updates to it.
I'm always adding new and interesting stories to it, so it's like a never-ending thing.
art bell
Well, I think what's happened is we have crashed the AOL and CompuServe connections to the website.
john captain crunch draper
That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
art bell
Yeah, so we'll get it fixed, folks.
Hang in there, and remember, when you go to my website, there's a jump over to the captains.
It's right at the very top of the page.
john captain crunch draper
And if you want to go directly to my website, I'm sure the well can handle all the traffic you can give it.
art bell
Sure, it's www.well, w-l.com forward slash user forward slash crunch.
john captain crunch draper
That's correct.
art bell
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi.
unidentified
Hey, Art Bill.
Fantastic.
Hey, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
How you doing?
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
I remember reading about you when I was young.
I'm from Youngstown, Ohio.
art bell
Okay.
unidentified
Hey, fantastic.
Hey, my own philosophy with this new anti-terrorism bill is unlike that guy, that gangster boss and Brookfellows.
I won't even have a phone or computer in my house.
That's what I think about it.
What's your take on that?
john captain crunch draper
Well, I don't think I'd go that far.
unidentified
I don't know.
It gives you a lot of peace and quiet, though.
art bell
Well, it does.
That's true, and if that's what you want, then, sir, that is certainly what you should...
It did?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it's okay now.
I didn't hear what he said.
Can you repeat that, please?
art bell
No, he was just saying that as far as he was concerned, having no telephone, having no computer, having no electronics gives him peace of mind.
And I understand that.
john captain crunch draper
Well, let me tell you something about that.
Just recently, I went to the rainbow gathering.
I drove to Missouri.
art bell
Yes.
john captain crunch draper
And I was without a computer and a phone for a week.
I loved every minute of it.
art bell
Really?
unidentified
Yep.
john captain crunch draper
But when I got back and checked my mail, I had probably close to a thousand mail messages waiting for me in a week.
art bell
Oh, good lord.
john captain crunch draper
It took me about a week to go through it all.
Oh, I can process mail pretty fast and rapidly.
I usually answer and respond to just about anybody that sends mail to me.
art bell
Well, wait till you see your mail after this, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, crunch at well.com.
art bell
Crunch at well.com.
john captain crunch draper
All right.
art bell
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hi, where are you, please?
unidentified
Hi, I'm in 209, Fresno.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
I have a couple of questions.
One, a few years back, they had a crack on the master locks, and master lock, I mean, it's a common thing, everybody has one.
You know, the combination one?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
unidentified
Yeah, they rebuilt, they had to rebuild all their master locks because somebody figured out how to crack that.
john captain crunch draper
I learned how to manipulate those locks in jail.
Those are pretty cool.
unidentified
Yeah, I also was wondering about the DSS satellite chips that they're hacking with now.
john captain crunch draper
No, what's the DSS again?
art bell
No, I don't want to get into that.
That'll get us in trouble.
I know about that, but I don't want to talk about it.
It's satellite service, and the various encryption modes.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, oh, well, the data encryption.
art bell
No, no.
Call us toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
john captain crunch draper
No stuff.
art bell
I bleeped that out, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
I'm sorry.
You're talking about HBO.
art bell
Well, yeah, more or less.
That's right.
unidentified
Okay.
art bell
That's exactly.
john captain crunch draper
And deciphering it.
art bell
Yeah, we don't want to talk about that.
john captain crunch draper
No, I agree.
All right.
art bell
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Yeah, Captain Crunch.
john captain crunch draper
Forget about the, this is 408, The Economist.
Forget about the commercial, or forget about the phone company.
unidentified
What about the commercial applications in terms of bypass systems, i.e., ISDN?
art bell
Okay.
That's a subject we haven't even touched.
john captain crunch draper
Well, there is something I'd like to say about that.
And all those manufacturers of ISDN equipment out there or any other kind of network connection out there, we've got to come up with a standard connection, and it's got to have to be everywhere in order for it to really work right.
Boy, do I agree?
You're going to have to take your laptop, your portable, and you want to be able to plug it into a high-speed network from anywhere.
unidentified
Yes.
john captain crunch draper
And that's what I want.
And I'm hoping that all you manufacturers out there get your act together.
art bell
Yes, I agree, Captain.
You see, the broadcast industry extensively uses ISDN and things like it.
And there are so many different lines and so many different protocols.
john captain crunch draper
So many different standard connection jacks and protocols and this and that.
art bell
I know, I know.
john captain crunch draper
You've got to come up with a standard, man.
art bell
I think that they're doing it on purpose.
So you've got to keep buying all this different peripheral crap that they sell.
I'm convinced of it.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Hey, good morning.
My name is Jerry, and I'm in Colorado here, and I had a couple of weird questions.
There was a point in time when there used to be a bunch of rumors going around that you could transmit like colds and viruses and stuff to other people by talking on the phone.
Now I'm in that's all a rumor and it's a bunch of oh I know it's not true.
Right.
But my curiosity is what how do rumors like that get national well because people because people are crazy.
art bell
I mean it's like you hear somebody sneeze on the phone even me when I hear somebody sneeze like a you know stand back a little bit even though it's on the phone.
That's I mean it's just dumb stuff sir.
There's nothing to it.
Obviously anybody who can catch a cold over a phone is a psycho case that's what I think.
West of the Rockies you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Yeah, call him from Alaska, K-E-I country.
art bell
Way up in Alaska, yes, sir.
unidentified
Well, you know, I think we're getting a little bit too carried away with this technology stuff.
You know, I think we're getting a little too techno-dependent.
art bell
Actually, that's a really good question.
unidentified
You know, I went to the gas station the other day, and from the time it took me to pay for my gas to get to the register, the register went down.
Well, actually, it's not a register.
It's a computer screen.
And the lady said she couldn't take my money because she couldn't punch your finger on the computer screen there to...
john captain crunch draper
I mean, you know, that's why I went to the rainbow gathering.
art bell
What was the rainbow gathering?
And caller, don't go away.
Hold on.
john captain crunch draper
The rainbow gathering is a gathering of all kinds of different people, and they usually wind up gathering at a national park or in a wilderness.
Right.
They have drum circles dancing.
They have kitchens.
art bell
In other words, it's almost anti-technology.
unidentified
Yeah, totally.
john captain crunch draper
Absolutely, totally.
unidentified
Yeah, well, I'm curious because the highest tech device I had was a flashlight.
art bell
All right, Color, go ahead.
unidentified
Well, you know, if the power grid shuts down and nobody can operate their computer equipment or whatever, are they going to look like my 12-year-old when I take his Nintendo away for a week, kind of dazed and useless?
art bell
It's going to be a hell of a lot worse than that.
Now, I'll tell you something.
If there ever was a nuclear detonation of sufficient size above our country, two or three of them, the EMP would wipe out just about every computer system within...
Anything, transistors.
It would all go down and stay down.
And people have no idea the precarious edge we are perched on with technology.
It really is true, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
art bell
You almost sound like a...
Are you?
john captain crunch draper
Uh, no.
I mean...
Have you...
art bell
Come on.
john captain crunch draper
Have you, really, Captain?
Well, what do you mean?
art bell
What do you know what I mean?
Have you hugged a tree?
I mean, are you on the one hand, you are the quintessential earned myth of the hacker and the guy deeply into electronics.
But on the other hand, it sounds like you're beginning to say to yourself, God, maybe all this is wrong.
john captain crunch draper
Well, I've been known to get out of technology for long periods of time.
art bell
Cast it off.
But you always come back.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, it's always nice to communicate with people, of course.
art bell
All right, well, here, communicate with this people.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
john captain crunch draper
Hi, this is Dr. Kak.
art bell
Doctor, whoever you are, you've got to talk up louder because we can't hear you.
Where are you calling from?
unidentified
213.
I guess that's BLA.
art bell
LA, yes, sir.
unidentified
Number one, you were talking about encryption methods.
art bell
Yes, mm-hmm.
unidentified
And reliability.
As far as the hacker community is concerned, encryption does not exist because the encryption methods that are in the United States today have been hacked.
art bell
Well, in all probability, yeah, we talked about that, really.
In other words, the newer encryption methods, for all we know, there are little doors specifically that were designed with the help of intelligent people, that kind of thing, right?
john captain crunch draper
Well, actually, when Phil Zurman released PGP, he released it in source code, which meant that anybody could go into PGP and verify that it was written correctly and not have any back doors.
unidentified
So the source code of PGP is available.
art bell
Yeah, but we're now talking about the later versions.
john captain crunch draper
The later versions of PGP, the commercial versions of PGP, I would tend to not trust as much because usually commercial versions of software do not provide you with source code.
art bell
That's right.
They don't.
All right.
First time caller line.
You're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hi.
This is Bill, and I'm calling from Eric Code 602.
I love doing that.
I have two questions.
One is the commercial devices that you can buy in stores that will tell you if your phone is bugged.
art bell
All right, that's one we covered.
Captain says they are useless.
unidentified
Oh, okay, good.
And also, is there any way you can tell if your line is either being bugged or tape recorded without technology?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
Really?
Yeah, actually, Kevin Nednick did it.
It's called social engineering.
Talking to the right kind of people.
Convincing the person at the other end of the telephone that you are who you are not who you are, but are somebody else.
In other words, social engineering.
You know, calling the switching office and say, hey, you've got a box on this phone, mine drew out the phone number and say, yeah, let me go check.
Oh, my gosh, really?
Yeah.
If you read the book, Takedown, www.takedown.com, by the way, is the website.
art bell
Takedown?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
Kai.
It's a Japanese name Kevin Hampson from UC, San Diego, wrote the book.
It was the victim of Kevin Metnick's antics and went on a rampage trying to hunt him down.
And that was how he got busted.
He cooperated very well with the FBI, and the FBI did a very good job of tracking him down.
So in other words, you can actually convince Netnick was able to actually contact, according to the book anyway, Netnik was actually able to contact the phone company switching office and actually got a tap removed from his line and actually put it on the FBI's line.
art bell
Does that answer your question, Claire?
unidentified
Thank you so much.
art bell
Oh, geez.
That's incredible.
So off his line, and that must have been very, very embarrassing for the FBI when they realized what happened.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, my God.
art bell
All right, Captain, listen, once again, we are here at the bottom of the era, so relax.
We've only got another hour.
john captain crunch draper
Time and a half hour to go.
art bell
That's right, and then you're done, and this will be a classic all-time show.
Again, anybody out there in Hollywood wanting to do a movie on this man's life, and there's a lot more that's been said.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah.
unidentified
You hear that, uh, yeah?
art bell
Lots to read there.
Captain Crunch, John Draper is my guest.
You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified
CBC Radio Network.
art bell
Back down to Captain Crunch.
Captain, where did the expression freaking come from?
john captain crunch draper
Um, okay.
Uh, when I was originally contacted by the blind kids, who turned me on to freaking altogether, they called themselves phone freaks.
They were just sort of like blind kids.
art bell
Now, these are kids, you say blind kids, you mean without sight.
Right.
So, I guess a telephone to a blind person is their connection to the world.
john captain crunch draper
In the 60s, a freak is also sometimes a person with long hair or an outsider or a person outside the establishment.
art bell
Somebody different.
john captain crunch draper
Somebody different, yeah, yeah, you got it.
And so that term could have been derived from that as well.
So it's sort of like could be this or could be that, you know.
art bell
No, I've got it.
No, that's a, I've always wanted to know about that, and you just told me, thank you.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
john captain crunch draper
Hi.
unidentified
Hi.
I'm calling because I'm one of those phone freaks from back in the 60s.
art bell
Oh, boy.
Where are you now?
Can you tell us?
unidentified
Yeah, I'm in Denver, Colorado.
art bell
Denver, all right.
unidentified
And I used to whistle the 2600 cycle tone, and I used to listen to the other tones, and then go home and build oscillators that would duplicate them.
Yep.
And unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, I never got tied up with a group of people that knew what they were doing with all this stuff.
And I accidentally got into a few places and made a couple of phone calls and also had worked a little bit with the boxes that would trip the ringer before the billing cycle knew that that happened, that kind of thing.
But the main question that I had today is, do you know enough to talk a little bit about how they work the billing cycles these days and the time increments that they bill you for and phone companies?
art bell
That is a fair question.
I don't want to get into any freaking modern details because we'll get into freaking trouble.
So Captain, the phone companies do bill differently, don't they?
In other words, I see a lot of advertisements.
Some guys bill you for seconds, minutes rounded off to the nearest minute, that kind of thing.
john captain crunch draper
Well, okay, Pac-Bell and AT ⁇ T bill you for the first minute, whether or not you talk for the first minute.
They also, if you're using a calling card, they also will bill you, I believe, 80 cents for every call.
That's AT ⁇ T's rates.
At least that's what the AT ⁇ T's rates were the last time I checked.
Now they may have changed.
Don't quote me on this, please.
Pac-Bell also, I believe, charges a smaller surcharge fee, but they're also charged by the minute.
You pay for the first minute whether you use it or not.
Now that's a very good tactic on the part of the phone companies because they're going to make a lot of money doing that because a lot of times calls are very short.
Sometimes most of the calls I make, for instance, are always less than 30 seconds.
I go up on my voicemail, check to see if I have any messages.
I don't, I hang up.
I'm on and off for six seconds.
Why should I have to pay for a minute?
art bell
Well, now, there is one good thing, though, about the phone companies breaking up.
In other words, there is all this advertising now, and they're all trashing each other, saying, so-and-so bills you for a minute, whether you use it or not, we don't.
And so it's like this company.
john captain crunch draper
You're right.
There's definitely a good side of the breakup.
There are a lot of long-distance companies now.
In fact, if you get onto my website, there is a long-distance company that I'm helping promote as well.
I won't go into details.
You just have to go up there and look at it yourself.
art bell
All right.
Listen, this is probably the longest phone call you've had.
john captain crunch draper
It's been a long time.
Yeah, my ear hurts.
I've been on here now for how long?
Have you had guests on this long?
art bell
Oh, yeah, sure, sure.
Yeah, listen, this is not like other talk shows.
And I'll just leave it there.
It's not like other talk shows.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
john captain crunch draper
Hello.
unidentified
Thank you.
Oklahoma City here.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
About 30 years ago, I had a problem with the phone company, with the telephone cough that took place on an old rotary phone.
And I had called my wife, and the phone, they never picked it up off the cradle, but the line opened up.
And I was able to hear everything that was going on inside the house.
And I listened long enough until I finally, you know, I hung up and called back and could tell them what was being said.
And my question Is about the phone company's ability, say, just to eavesdrop what.
art bell
Oh, yeah, yeah, we covered that one already.
Captain, it is not possible, is it?
Well, I hope.
john captain crunch draper
That depends on whether that phone you're using has been modified.
art bell
Yeah, if they've modified the phone, sir, he says such a thing is possible.
So you would want to check and see if that if that maybe you want to hire an expert and have somebody come in and look at it.
unidentified
Well, this was like 30 years ago on an old rotary phone.
It was just kind of a crude deal, but it's always kind of bothered me that that ability could exist.
art bell
Well, I guess it can.
I thank you for the call.
And maybe somebody jostled it at the wrong time or something.
Who knows what might have happened?
Well, I don't want to think that could be possible.
Nobody does.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hi, I just have a few questions.
art bell
All right, where are you?
unidentified
I'm in, well, 805, SID 6.7.
But I'm small time, so you probably wouldn't even recognize me.
I just have a few questions.
Have you ever heard of the Mov box?
john captain crunch draper
The what box?
unidentified
Mov?
john captain crunch draper
Stella.
unidentified
Um, M-A-U-V-E.
john captain crunch draper
Pearl, Mov box.
No, I haven't.
art bell
What is it?
unidentified
Um, well, it basically says here that it's it's kind of like a tap without leaving leaving fingerprints.
It, um, it's kind of like when you put soap in water and it repels things.
john captain crunch draper
Oh.
unidentified
It, let's see.
Um, it lets your phone transmit to another phone, basically.
And it accomplishes a tap.
That's all it says.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, okay.
art bell
What would that be, Captain?
john captain crunch draper
Oh.
art bell
Uh, okay.
Uh good enough.
Wildcard line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
john captain crunch draper
Good morning.
Uh, this is Mr. White in area code 602.
And uh, I basically want to give you a quick analogy and then I'll ask you a question.
And uh, this can okay, I'm basically a chess player, and sometimes I'll look over the board and analyze a game I played, and I look at the uh position, and a lot of times I discover that there were opportunities for my opponent that I didn't realize neither did they.
That's how I ended up winning the game.
So my basic point is, is that everything has its weaknesses, and whatever man creates can be deciphered.
So my question to you, when are we going to learn this, and when are we going to understand this, especially considering computers and security?
art bell
All right, it's a good question.
unidentified
Yeah, well, computers are complicated things.
Software is a complicated thing.
john captain crunch draper
There are many, many, many ways of writing a program.
And a program can be written one way and can be written a totally different way and have it totally different and have yet the same behavior, but maybe inside have it be totally different.
Computers are very complicated things.
art bell
No matter what we do, our privacy is going to continue to be eroded, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, and there's going to be some thing inside that computer, or I mean some program inside that computer that may not behave right.
Maybe some fluke, maybe some glitch caused that program to branch off into somewhere else.
art bell
It happens, yes.
john captain crunch draper
So it's really hard to have something totally secure.
art bell
Well, and it's going to get increasingly hard as well.
john captain crunch draper
As the complexity of machines increase, which that seems to be the trend, it's going to get worse.
art bell
Chaos theory eventually.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
art bell
All right, Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
Hello.
art bell
Where are you?
unidentified
I'm another one of 602, but right now, I'm a private citizen.
Two years.
We've been trying to find out who was on my line, and I just found out this week, and I wondered if you'd like to know how they did it.
art bell
I'd like to know how you found out, yes.
unidentified
Well, remember you were saying sometimes when you pick up the phone, someone's on it?
art bell
Yep.
unidentified
Well, in 94, I've been fighting this since 93, US West came out, did a complete overhaul of my telephone system.
This is when my trouble started.
art bell
Okay, but we don't have time for the whole thing.
unidentified
So when I was on the phone, the man, the new owner, was irate.
What are you doing on my line?
So we were.
john captain crunch draper
You know what happened?
unidentified
Yeah, tell me.
john captain crunch draper
There's a junction box near every home, and all of the wires of every phone line goes inside the junction box.
unidentified
They said there's 100 fiber optics in each one.
art bell
Oh, boy, you really got hacked.
They hacked fiber optics.
Well, and yet fiber optics turns into analog.
john captain crunch draper
Eventually it's going to turn into analog, and at that point when it turns into analog is where it's going to get switched around.
art bell
So she had somebody actually...
john captain crunch draper
Boy.
art bell
Now that is one case.
john captain crunch draper
That's like an extension, really.
art bell
I was about to say, that's one case where those little devices that are supposed to show you whether it's tapped or not should have shown her.
unidentified
That's correct.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that would definitely indicate that.
art bell
Interesting.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
john captain crunch draper
Hi.
unidentified
Hi, I have a question.
I'm Jeff calling from the Seattle area.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
206?
art bell
206, yeah.
unidentified
I'm curious, Captain, if hackers can use the phone company's billing system to bill things onto my phone and even change the numbers where the call originated, where it went to.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that's it.
unidentified
That's been happening to me, I believe.
That's possible.
It can be done.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, they can.
unidentified
The phone company won't tell me that can be done.
john captain crunch draper
I would be very surprised if they would admit that that can be done.
unidentified
Yeah, they get very vague and they say, well, we'll get back to you and we try to trace this call and we haven't gotten a call back.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah.
Well, it's totally possible.
unidentified
Well, that's what I suspect.
Thank you very much.
art bell
What about this new form that's really insidious of people out there with scanners and decoders grabbing people's cellular phone numbers and going crazy with that?
Cloning, yeah.
unidentified
Yeah, that is a problem.
john captain crunch draper
There's all kinds of ways that people are trying to prevent that, like having a digital signature or an analog signature of your radio.
art bell
The captain has not fooled with cloning, of course.
All right, Captain, don't see it.
First-time callers, area 702-727-1222.
No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
The one thing you're not allowed to do is give your last name on the air, sir.
john captain crunch draper
No, I didn't give my last name, Art.
art bell
Oh, you didn't?
I thought you did.
unidentified
No, Harrison.
art bell
Harrison, all right, and you're where?
unidentified
309.
Where is it?
john captain crunch draper
ATAZ country, Art?
Illinois.
unidentified
You got it.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
Hey, just for the record, Art, your website drops cookies.
art bell
It does not.
john captain crunch draper
Well, the hell it does.
art bell
No, it doesn't.
unidentified
You ask Keith.
art bell
I got a question for you.
I did ask Keith, and it was the browser that was falsely detecting cookies.
unidentified
Well, I don't know, Art.
art bell
I'm telling you.
john captain crunch draper
Can I ask Captain a question?
art bell
Yeah.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, go ahead.
unidentified
Captain, would you think that somebody that claims to be on the cutting edge of the internet and computers would be on AOL?
Oh, now, now, see, don't.
john captain crunch draper
I decline to answer that in respect for AOL and making them look like cruel.
art bell
Yeah, don't.
john captain crunch draper
Obviously, his guys.
art bell
Let me tell you, there are Internet snobs, and AOL is an IOP.
I don't care what anybody says.
I have an AOL account.
I like it.
It's easy, and it brings a lot of people into the net who otherwise wouldn't.
Beginners who going through some sort of other provider would be totally lost.
So it's got its uses.
unidentified
He's right.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, that's true.
But I personally, of course, would not use it.
art bell
Well, once you've passed a certain level, I understand some people move on.
But it's still bringing people into the net that otherwise wouldn't be there.
So I like it.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Good morning, Art 941 area coast, Sarasota, Florida.
Wow.
art bell
All right.
unidentified
So how you doing?
Fine.
My neighbor told me that he had heard that you can actually view someone sitting there watching TV if your TV set is on, that that technology is possible.
Has Captain Crunch heard of that?
john captain crunch draper
No, I've not heard of that, and I don't think it's possible.
art bell
I'll tell you what is possible, though.
Thank you, Caller.
We have now video.
I've got a camera sitting right here in front of me, Captain.
And we've got a software program.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, CU, CME.
art bell
No, no.
No, it's a different version running up like 17 frames per second of moving video in color with sound.
And I've got it here now.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, well, what bandwidth?
art bell
Standard 288 modem.
john captain crunch draper
288 modem with 16 frames?
art bell
17.
john captain crunch draper
17 frames?
art bell
16 frames?
john captain crunch draper
Yep.
art bell
I've got it.
It's working.
I've got it here now.
john captain crunch draper
That's pretty good.
art bell
Yeah, I know.
john captain crunch draper
How big is the picture?
It's about the size of a postage scan?
art bell
No, sir.
It's about a third of your screen.
unidentified
Huh?
john captain crunch draper
A third of the screen isn't it?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
art bell
That's new technology.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
Hello.
unidentified
Art isn't recognized in 909.
art bell
Where is that?
unidentified
It's in Southern California.
john captain crunch draper
Okay.
unidentified
You were the news.
What I got a problem is, I've got a phone bill for $185.
art bell
And you didn't make the calls?
unidentified
No, these are correct calls to me.
My answer machine.
Everybody picked it up and everything.
We called the company in Dallas, Texas, which is in Kansas City, and they said we have to pay the bill.
art bell
All right, now listen to what he says.
I think he's got to know.
john captain crunch draper
Let me say that.
Let me say something here now.
A lot of the new equipment that the phone company is installing allow you to be able to have speech detection on collect calls.
art bell
What do you mean?
john captain crunch draper
Well, when you make a collect call now on some phones, especially some of the phones that are in the prisons, so only allow you to make collect calls, it's possible to fool those machines and to get it to accept your call.
art bell
Oh my gosh.
You mean to say it's, in other words, it connects to an answering machine?
john captain crunch draper
Or whatever.
art bell
And recognizes a voice?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, because when you, it'll come on with a recorded announcement saying we have a correct call from, and then the name of the person gets announced, you know, because it records the name of the person.
art bell
Right.
john captain crunch draper
Do you accept the call?
Okay, and the person at the other end can sometimes persuade the machine at this end, you know, the call end to say yes.
art bell
So how does he approach the phone company and get rid of this bill?
john captain crunch draper
That can sometimes be hard to convince them of a flaw in their system.
And he's going to have a hard time trying to convince them of that.
That is a problem.
art bell
Dealing with phone companies is a little like dealing with a government, isn't it?
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, yeah.
I know.
art bell
You better than anybody.
One more, I guess.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Captain Crunch.
unidentified
Hello.
How you doing, Mr. Bill?
art bell
Okay, where are you?
unidentified
Portland, Oregon.
art bell
Yes, sir.
unidentified
K-E-X.
Of course.
Mighty, mighty, mighty.
Anyways, Captain Crunch, I have a question for you.
Yeah.
Yes.
How do you feel about the legislation pending about computer or internet information flow?
john captain crunch draper
Information flow?
art bell
Oh, yeah.
In other words, the internet, you remember they were threatening to, in effect, censor the internet.
john captain crunch draper
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I'm kind of glad the bill got shut, you know, got shot down.
I mean, that's, I mean, the internet is, I mean, how can you police it?
I mean, come on.
art bell
You can't.
You can't.
And it would have been fun to watch them try to have the bill passed.
I mean, it's just really a tangled...
john captain crunch draper
I think that with the software programs out there now that prevent children from getting access to certain webpages is the way to go to prevent that.
art bell
It's really the only way.
It's called personal responsibility.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, exactly.
And it should start in the home and with the family and nowhere else.
art bell
Well, that's right.
john captain crunch draper
Listen, I have a question for you, Art.
art bell
All right.
john captain crunch draper
What station in the Bay Area carries your program?
art bell
KSFO in San Francisco.
john captain crunch draper
Okay, 560.
art bell
Yeah, 560 in San Francisco, sure.
Listen, give out, now, anybody going to my website, whenever it can be accessed again, and it can really now, all through, except AOL, I guess.
Mine is www.artbell.com.
And the captain's is, give it to him, Captain.
john captain crunch draper
www.well.com forward slash user forward slash crunch.
art bell
And your email address?
john captain crunch draper
Crunch at well.com.
art bell
Crunch at well.com.
All right, those are, certainly your web address is a little long.
As soon as, we'll leave up that link for some number of days, if not weeks.
So www.artbell.com, and you can jump right over to the captain's location.
john captain crunch draper
Yeah, I'm in all the databases.
Yahoo knows about me, too.
Just type in Captain Crunt into your favorite search engine.
You'll find me.
art bell
Hey, Captain, do me a favor.
Captain?
unidentified
Yeah.
art bell
Say goodnight, America.
john captain crunch draper
Good night, America.
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