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July 23, 1996 - Art Bell

02:54:02

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Manson prosecutor and TWA Flight 800 - Vincent Bugliosi

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	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning, across all these many time zones.
	Stretching from the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains, eastward over flyover country, to the U.S.
	Caribbean.
	Well, that's the Caribbean, actually, not all ours.
	The U.S.
	Virgin Islands, good morning.
	Down into South America, north to the pole, worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Top of the morning, as promised, coming in a moment, Vincent Bugliosi.
	Author most recently of the number one New York Times bestseller, Outrage.
	Just made the New York Times bestseller list, Outrage and or the five reasons why O.J.
	Simpson got away with murder.
	So, that's coming up in just a moment.
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	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23rd, 1996.
	Music Vincent Beliosi received his law degree in 1964 from the UCLA Law School, where he was president of his graduating class.
	In his career as a prosecutor for the Los Angeles County DA's office, he won, get this folks, 105 out of 106 felony jury trials.
	Wow!
	His most famous trial, the Charles Manson case, Which became the basis of that book, Helter Skelter.
	You know that.
	But even before the Manson case, in the television series, the DA actor, remember Robert Conrad, patterned his starring role after Bugliosi.
	Both Helter Skelter and a subsequent Till Death Do Us Part won Edgar Allan Poe awards for best true crime book of the year.
	Bugliosi's most recent true crime book, and The Sea Will Tell, was number one on the New York Times Hardcover bestseller list.
	All three books have been adapted for network television.
	Now comes Outrage, or the Five Reasons Why O.J.
	Simpson Got Away With Murder, and congratulations, Mr. Bugliosi, number one on the New York Times bestseller list.
	Gee, congratulations!
	Yeah, the past two weeks it's been number one in the country on the New York Times bestseller list.
	We don't know what it's going to be this coming week.
	Well, you never know, but any week at all is a good week.
	I appreciate that.
	You believe, summing up, that the jury in the Simpson case wasn't smart.
	The judge was bad.
	The prosecution was atrocious.
	And as far as the so-called dream team is concerned, quoting from your book, uh... quote in fact
	it was only the greater incompetence of the prosecution say conference bureau
	believe a check at all from defeat uh...
	yes so and you really believe all that
	yacht not only do i believe it not only do i let you know that anyone who reads
	the book car is almost compelled to go along with those conclusions because if
	there's one thing about me art uh...
	That I never do.
	I never make a charge without supporting it, and I have a tremendous amount of support for everything that I say.
	I don't just say something without giving four or five examples to support what I'm saying.
	When I talk about the incompetence of the prosecution in this case, it's page after page after page.
	There's just no way that anyone could read this book without coming to the same conclusion, and it's because Of these revelations, these shocking revelations of incompetence in my book, Outrage, that the word of mouth has been such that the book has shot up to number one in the country because heretofore the American people have been blaming the jury for this verdict.
	And of course, the jury was very bad.
	Don't get me wrong on that at all.
	Very, very bad.
	Many have been blaming the LAPD, claiming the LAPD botched the case before it came to trial.
	But the main reason why this case was lost was the unbelievable incompetence of the prosecution in this case.
	And you have to realize, Art, I think you know my background, I'm very pro-prosecution.
	No one in this country was more supportive of these prosecutors than I was throughout the entire case.
	I mean, I even sent them a telegram on the morning of their summation trying to pump them up.
	But I had an option here, either not do the book, and actually I was talked into doing it by my editor and I'm happy now that he did, or write the book and be candid.
	And this is a very serious charge that I'm making against the prosecution in this case, but I support it in faith.
	There's just no question about it.
	I sat there and watched every moment of the trial, lost a lot of sleep over it.
	I presume you pretty much did as much as you could the same thing.
	Yeah.
	Did you sit there sort of beating your fist against the wall?
	Well, you know, I also got on radio and TV.
	I kept it to a minimum, but I got on radio and TV and said many of the things that I'm saying in the book now.
	So this is not Monday Morning Quarterback, but I'd get on radio and television and say they've got to offer some of this evidence, this very, very incriminating evidence that it was a conventional type of evidence that lay people, you don't even have to be very bright, lay people have been consistently basing verdicts of guilty on for the past two centuries.
	It's a type of evidence that Is automatically associated, even by people of rather low intelligence, with guilt.
	DNA is very good evidence, don't get me wrong, and I'm not criticizing the prosecution for presenting DNA evidence in this case.
	But DNA is very complex, very difficult to understand.
	It was almost alien to this jury.
	But evidence like Simpson taking off when he was being charged with these murders, and their finding in his possession, A gun, a passport, a cheap disguise, several fresh changes of underclothing, and cowling the driver of the $8,750 in cash on him, which he proceeds to tell the police that Simpson had given him inside the Bronco.
	That type is automatically associated by laypeople with guilt, yet it was not offered to this jury.
	The jury never saw that evidence.
	None of the low-speed stuff.
	Dominic Dunn, the respected writer, has publicly stated why the prosecution didn't present that evidence.
	He says, through his sources, But he's aware of taped conversations of Simpson during the Bronco chase where he's talking on a cellular phone, sobbing, crying, claiming to be an innocent man who's been framed.
	Is that why they didn't use it?
	No, he didn't say framed.
	No, no, absolutely not.
	No, no.
	Dominic is partly true there.
	He was denying guilt.
	But big deal.
	Big deal.
	It means nothing when someone is charged with murder and they deny guilt.
	Of course they're going to deny guilt.
	Who in the world expects them to confess?
	That is the reason, by the way, that the prosecution did not offer that evidence, nor did they offer a suicide note which absolutely reeked with guilt.
	I mean, show me an innocent person charged with murder who would write a note like that.
	So they were afraid of it?
	Well, yeah, but for the wrong reasons.
	In the suicide note, Simpson denies guilt too.
	Also, the 32-minute interrogation of Simpson the day after the murders.
	Right.
	Incidentally, I was able to get a hold of the audio of that 32-minute interrogation, and I've transcribed it, and it's in an appendix of the book.
	It's the only book on the Simpson case that has interrogation in it, where he admits dripping with blood on the night of these murders, has no idea how he got cut, but in that interrogation he also denies guilt, and the prosecutors, you're right, They kept that out.
	They kept that out, all of that, because they didn't... This is what they said, and you can't make this up.
	It's too far out to make up.
	Darden says it in his book.
	They didn't want the jury to hear Simpson denying guilt without us taking the witness stand.
	But Art, the jury already knew that Simpson had denied guilt.
	I mean, they knew he pled not guilty.
	That's why they were having a trial for Pete's sake.
	I mean, if the guy had confessed, if he had pled guilty, there would not have been a trial.
	You're going to keep out extremely powerful evidence like this just to prevent the jury from hearing something that they already know that's mind-boggling.
	And this is the mentality of these prosecutors, good people, the good guys lost here.
	This is the mentality of these people who are representing the state in the Simpson case.
	And people wonder why this guy's out on a golf course with a smile on his face.
	You're going to keep out, for instance, the passport, the cheap disguise, Several fresh changes of underclothing, and the fact that Collins has all this money on him, which Simpson gave him, all this cash, because he's denying guilt?
	Because he's denying guilt?
	I mean, the jury doesn't know that he's denying guilt.
	Why are they having a trial?
	Mind-boggling!
	Alright, what about the civil trial?
	Now, all of this that didn't come out in that trial will come out, will it not, in the civil trial?
	i can give you a virtual one hundred percent guarantee that uh... the plaintiff's
	lawyers like daniel uh... petrocelli much both of they will be offering that
	evidence anyone would offer that it was why these prosecutors didn't
	why they're so incompetent i don't know if i keep hearing that a lot of people
	why are they so incompetent why did they do this i can't tell them i mean it's
	like asking me uh... wire michael jordan larry bird are great basketball
	player I can't tell you why.
	I can tell you that they are, but the genesis of why they're so great, I don't know.
	But yeah, that evidence will be offered like virtually any other prosecutor in the country would have done if they had handled the case.
	That evidence will be offered during the civil trial, and I'm very confident that there will be a judgment against Simpson in that civil trial.
	The question is whether he's already spirited his money out of the country and they're going to be able to collect on the judgment.
	That's the real problem.
	Darden and Clark both had a very in-your-face kind of presentation, and a lot of people translated that to competence, and they apparently didn't look a little bit deeper at some of the things we just talked about with regard to the evidence not presented.
	Well, actually, they were not in the face.
	They should have been a lot more in the face.
	They were much too casual and laid-back.
	They were extremely casual and laid-back.
	They may have been a little in the face outside the presence of the jury when they were talking to Judge Ito in front of the jury.
	They couldn't possibly have been more diffident.
	Imagine in your eyes what this guy, Simpson, did to these two victims.
	Viciously stabbing them to death, you know, their lifeblood draining out of them.
	The horror and the fright in their eyes, the last moments when they were trying to survive.
	Imagine that.
	Now imagine Marsha Clark, during jury selection, telling this jury Well, this thought is in your mind that I just told you.
	He is such a sympathetic guy, okay?
	Then telling the jury, this is not a fun place for me to be.
	I'm not making this up.
	This stuff's in the transcript.
	If she tells the jury, this is not a fun place for me to be, Art, that's like telling the jury, you know, I really don't want to be prosecuting this guy, but I've been assigned the case, so what can I do?
	Then she tells the jury, you may not like me for bringing this case.
	I'm not winning any popularity contest for doing so.
	Psychologically, nothing could be worse than to tell a jury that you're not winning any popularity contest.
	Because if you're telling them that, that's like telling them the majority of people outside that courtroom don't even want this guy to be prosecuted.
	And by necessary extension, if they come back with a verdict of guilty, they're going against the majority of people.
	Darden, in his final summation, unbelievably telling the jury Nobody wants to hurt this guy.
	We don't.
	There's nothing personal here, but the law is the law.
	If you're telling the jury that nobody wants to hurt this guy, Art, you're telling them that virtually everyone outside that courtroom is pulling for him.
	So in essence, she did set up a popularity contest by saying that, one which she lost.
	Yes, a very good articulation, but they were not forceful at all.
	The prosecution has the burden of proof, and it's difficult to meet that burden if you're not forceful.
	They were not forceful.
	Here's Darden, in a summation, telling the jury, on this question of whether Mr. Simpson is guilty or not guilty, that's a tough question, and I'm glad I'm not in your shoes.
	Art, do you realize what that is saying?
	That's almost telling the jury that this is a reasonable doubt case.
	And the prosecutor should be conveying to the jury, of course, that the evidence of guilt is so overwhelming that you folks shouldn't have any difficulty at all coming back with a guilty verdict.
	And here's Darden saying, boy, that's a tough question.
	I'm glad I'm not in your shoes.
	It's beyond incompetence, Art.
	The book has many, many instances where we're getting into the area of unprecedented, unheard of, bizarre, unique, and it's because of these revelations That the media did not see.
	The media was seeing what they expected to see, and what they expected to see was competent prosecutors taking care of business.
	They didn't see what was actually in front of them.
	Now that they're seeing, the American people are seeing what actually happened during this trial, this is why the word of mouth on outrage is such that it's shot the number one.
	Sure.
	Clark obviously at the beginning of the case thought she had a slam dunk.
	Right, right.
	Do you think at any point during the case she realized, or did she never realize, that it was becoming Less and less slam-dunk as they went along.
	Well, you know, I wasn't down there, but by everyone I've spoken to near the end, they were very, very worried, and they would have settled for a hung jury at the end.
	But at the beginning, you're right.
	She thought it was a slam-dunk case, right?
	But not at the end.
	Not at the end.
	Who's... Darden has accepted blame for that whole glove bit.
	Right.
	Pretty much.
	Is it totally his fault, or should Clark have stood in his face and said no?
	Well, Clark was the chief prosecutor, and the co-prosecutor was Darden.
	Clark knew about what was going to happen.
	She apparently was opposed to it, but not enough to say, no, you can't do this.
	If she had intervened and said, no, you're not going to do that, it would not have happened.
	Here's another area now of unbelievable incompetence.
	Everyone's talked in the country about the fact that even a first-year law student is not going to conduct a serious experiment in court like this that could backfire on you.
	Without knowing what the result's going to be in advance.
	Everyone knows that.
	But there's another aspect of that glove demonstration that no one's talked about, and I talk about it in the book, that's perhaps even more incompetent.
	And it goes to the next issue.
	The first issue is, you don't conduct the experiment unless you know what's going to happen in advance.
	The second issue is, if you do conduct the experiment, how do you conduct it?
	Now, it was the position of Darden and Clark that even though those gloves had shrunk, And even though Simpson was wearing latex gloves, they still would have fit him if Simpson hadn't prevented the fit by the way he positioned his hands and fingers when he was putting the gloves on.
	In fact, Darden argued to the jury, Simpson faked it.
	He used the word, Simpson faked it.
	Those gloves, Art, were extremely important pieces of evidence.
	And as a prosecutor, you don't turn over any evidence in any case to the defendant of all people on the face of this earth and have him tell you If there's a match.
	Obviously what you do, if you want to find out if there's a fit, you have a third party put the gloves on him, feeling his hands and fingers along the way to make sure he doesn't do anything to inhibit the fit.
	Let me give you a parallel, not the best parallel, but I think it illustrates the point.
	Say the police find a gun on someone's person or in their home and they suspect it's a murder weapon.
	Well what they do, of course, they test fire the weapon and then they take the test fire bullets and they put it under a comparison microscope with the evidence bullets and see if the Striations or markings on the test fire bullets match up with the evidence bullets.
	They don't turn the gun over to the defendant and tell him to conduct the test and report back to them.
	That's absurd!
	What you have here, and this may sound cute when I say it, but I'm trying to be cute or sarcastic, but this is in essence what you have here, and it's unbelievable.
	Darden gives Simpson the gloves, and in effect tells Simpson, if these gloves fit, you're in trouble.
	If they don't fit, You might be able to walk out of court and play golf, knowing in advance that if these gloves don't fit, you might be able to walk out of here and tell OJ, do these gloves fit?
	Darden literally turned the gloves over to Simpson and let him be in complete charge and be the one to decide if there's a fit.
	That's beyond incompetence, Art.
	That's getting into the area of unprecedented unheard of.
	You don't make charges, though, beyond incompetence?
	In other words, you don't?
	Absolutely not.
	There are people that say, well, maybe they want it to lose or there was a payoff or whatever.
	No, no, no.
	These are good people.
	They wanted to win, but they just did not know how to try a criminal case.
	And what I've told you so far, we're just touching the surface.
	Alright, well let's go back to the beginning.
	Remember when they began to produce the domestic abuse evidence?
	Right.
	There was kind of a controversy about how much of that to present, and I think that the prosecution got the sense That some jurors, specifically Brenda Moran, for example, seemed almost put off by the domestic abuse testimony.
	You know, the shaking of heads.
	We couldn't see all of that, but apparently that was going on, and so that convinced them to lay off that aspect.
	That may or may not be true, and I don't hit them too hard in the book on that point, although I certainly would have presented more domestic abuse evidence I would have presented evidence, for instance, that Simpson had stalked.
	They put no evidence of stalking on it.
	Right.
	That Simpson had stalked Nicole and her boyfriend.
	She'd go to restaurants and he'd go to restaurants and sit a couple tables away and stare at them for a half hour.
	I would have put that on.
	There was evidence that he was peering through the window, observing her, doing things with other men.
	He was following her around in her car.
	He'd be behind her.
	She was at Starbucks once with Ron Goldman.
	And a friend of Ron Goldman's, and he pulls up, honks the car, very angry, and tells her to come over to the car.
	Orders her over to the car.
	This was just a couple months before the murder.
	I think this would have been good evidence, but that's not the main reason why I've been criticizing them for their handling of this case.
	But I do think they should have put on more domestic violence evidence.
	Alright, the jury seemed very impressed when they went to OJ's home, aside from the elegance of the home and all the rest of it, but there was white rug.
	And there was what?
	A white rug.
	A white rug, yeah.
	Yeah, and they seem very impressed that if there had been all this blood, where was the blood on the white rug?
	Well, why should there be any blood at all?
	Why should there be any blood at all?
	The night of the murders, this guy has blood in his Bronco, his car, and his home.
	When they interviewed him at 1.35 p.m.
	the day after the murders, this is before now, this is before they withdrew any blood from his arm and would have had any opportunity to plant or sprinkle it, they said, O.J., we've got a problem here.
	You've got blood in your Bronco, the driveway in your home, how come?
	And like I told you, he admits, he said, I cut myself last night, I was bleeding.
	How did you cut yourself, O.J.?
	These are his exact words.
	I don't know, okay?
	We're not talking about a little nick or scratch here.
	We're talking about a deep cut to the knuckle of his left middle finger.
	In fact, it was bandaged at the time they were interrogating him, and he says he has no idea how he got that cut.
	So what I'm saying is that he admits that around the very same time of these murders, we'd have to believe that Simpson innocently cut himself very badly on his left middle finger.
	We're talking about DNA numbers here.
	The astronomical probabilities against something like that happening are 1 out of 5 million, 1 out of a million.
	And when you cut yourself, unless you're in a frantic, frenzied state, as he must have been in, you stop the bleeding with your hand in your handkerchief.
	You put on a bandage.
	You don't bleed all over the place.
	So there was blood.
	25 swatches of blood were taken from the bronco.
	There was another 20 stains that were not even taken because they were representative.
	Uh, there was nine blood drops on the driveway, there were five in the foyer, one in the bathroom, and if the jurors said, why wasn't there more, why should there have been even one blood drop on the night of these murders?
	I recall some comment about going out to his Bronco to fetch the cellular phone or something like that, and he thought he got cut when he did that.
	No, no, no, no.
	That's what the media said.
	Vincent, we're at the bottom of the hour, hang tight, we'll be right back to you.
	Uh, it's called Outrage, it is number one, On the New York Times bestseller list.
	You're going to want to run right out and get it.
	I know you are.
	This is a good book.
	Believe me.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23, 1996.
	This is a commercial.
	You You
	Now we take you back to the past on art bell somewhere in time
	Outrage!
	It's number one on the New York Times bestseller list, the author Vincent T. Bugliosi.
	He'll be right back.
	Sound of thunder.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	Now, back to Vincent T. Boilesy.
	Vincent, welcome back.
	After you were back, Rod, I just want to clarify one point.
	Sure.
	He was saying something about his cutting himself on a cellular phone.
	The media was saying that, and they made that assumption.
	He did say something in the 32-minute interrogation about going to the Bronco to pick up a cellular phone.
	He did not say he cut himself on a cellular phone.
	They asked him specifically, how did you cut yourself?
	His exact words.
	The whole 32-minute interrogation is in the book.
	He said, I don't know.
	Later in the interview, they asked him again, how did you cut yourself?
	His exact words were, I have no idea, man.
	So he did not say he cut himself on this other phone.
	All right.
	Apaxian, did the prosecutors try the tactics that you fault them for?
	Because they were dealing with a jury system that's made up primarily of sympathizers to OJ, and people who are not, quote, average citizens, end quote.
	In other words, people who can take, you know, several months off work to attend a trial.
	Well, I don't really know what that means, because If these people weren't the brightest people in the world, which your question may imply, that's all the more reason why you offer conventional evidence like flight.
	You know, after he was being charged with these murders, he took off.
	The fact that he cut himself and has no idea how he got cut.
	The fact that he writes a suicide note.
	You know, when you're charged with murder, if you're innocent, you're going to be blazing mad that you're being charged, desperately want to prove your innocence, find out who murdered the mother of your two children.
	Instead, he becomes very passive, and he writes this farewell letter that reads exactly like a suicide note.
	He refers to himself as a lost person.
	These things are incompatible with innocence.
	So, in answer to your question, that's all the more reason why they should have offered these conventional Items of evidence.
	I'm not saying they shouldn't have offered DNA, but not to the exclusion of these conventional... All right, let's talk about DNA for a second.
	All these other issues aside, I'm just an average person talking, but I understand numbers.
	Why didn't the DNA evidence alone convict him?
	Okay, now again, we get into absolute extreme incompetence here.
	The defense, every time Every time they made an argument to explain away incriminating evidence, the prosecution either did not respond at all, which is virtually unprecedented, or they responded in a very anemic fashion.
	The main piece of evidence in this case, other than that tape that I just told you, you give me 100 hours and a yellow pad, I would have convicted him on that 32 minute interrogation alone.
	But the main item of evidence against Simpson was his blood at the murder scene, okay?
	There was blood on the rear gate, Uh, which was also his.
	Found later though.
	Yeah.
	No, no, no, no.
	It was collected later, not found later.
	No, it was, it was, it was seen that night by five detectives, all of whom would testify to it.
	But not collected that night?
	No, it was not collected because Dennis Fong was the criminalist and he did not pick it up that night.
	And things like that happen.
	That's just incompetence too.
	He was picking up blood everywhere.
	I mean, it was awash in blood there.
	He did not pick up the evidence from the rear gate.
	It was seen that night.
	There was even a photograph of two of the three bloodstains that night.
	Taken by the LAPD that night.
	Now, they claimed that the stains on the rear gate were planted.
	I'm talking about the defense.
	That's right.
	They claimed that the glove at Rockingham was planted.
	They claimed that blood in the Bronco was planted.
	They claimed that the socks in Simpson's bedroom were planted.
	But even these defendants, I mean defense attorneys, who possess the gonads of 10,000 elephants, even they, even they, Did not have the guts to allege that the five blood drops, four of which were immediately to the left of the killer's bloody shoe prints, leaving the crime scene, even they did not allege that they were planted.
	Here's what they alleged.
	They alleged that those blood drops there were exposed to the elements and lost all of their DNA.
	Because of both of the elements, bacteria, sunlight, what have you.
	And later on, when they were on cotton swatches at SID, Scientific Investigation Division of the LAPD, at Piper Tech, that those five blood drops became contaminated with blood from Simpson's reference file.
	They had no proof of that, no evidence, but they said the SID was a cesspool of contamination and possibly it happened, which is nonsense.
	They had no evidence, in any event.
	In any event.
	Marsha Clark, then, did not come back and make two very, very obvious arguments.
	I'm no expert on DNA, but I know enough about DNA to tell you this.
	That if, in fact, there had been cross-contamination, and she didn't make these arguments, those five blood drops would have had EDTA in them.
	EDTA is an anticoagulant.
	It's a preservative that is added to blood taken from a suspect's arm.
	They put it in a reference vial, then they put EDTA in it.
	These five blood drops did not have EDTA in them.
	She didn't tell the jury that in her summation.
	It came out at the trial, but she did not argue that in her final summation, that there could not have been cross-contamination, because if there had been, there would have been EDTA.
	Number two, if there had been cross-contamination, this is a separate independent reason why there was not cross-contamination, the DNA would have been a lot higher.
	On those five blood drops.
	Because if the blood came from the, if the blood on those cotton swatches, actually, if the DNA on those blood on the cotton swatches came from the reference file, there wouldn't have been any degradation at all.
	Whereas the blood drops taken from the scene had in fact degraded because of the sunlight, the moisture, the bacteria.
	In fact, only a PCR DNA test was conducted on four of the blood drops, and an RFLP, the more precise type, was conducted on the fifth so there had been degradation
	but if there was cross-contamination and actually with the blood from the reference vial
	there would have been no degradation and the dna would have been very very high
	she didn't make these two obvious argument so what i'm telling you that
	every single time the defense made an argument to try to explain away
	uh... evidence the dna didn't respond in kind it was mind-boggling
	incompetence mind-boggling huh
	alright in the final summations uh...
	that the race card was played obviously and uh...
	If you were to switch positions, hard for you I'm sure, but would you have done that?
	No.
	It's okay to vigorously defend someone, even though you know that they're guilty of a crime.
	You can vigorously defend them, but you don't fraudulently inject race into the case, as these defense attorneys did.
	You don't falsely accuse innocent police officers of a conspiracy.
	These defense attorneys know that Simpson's guilty, and they know there was no frame-up.
	They have to know that.
	So, they went beyond the proper bounds of advocacy.
	They went way beyond that.
	So far that somebody ought to be taking it to the bar?
	Well, I'm not going to say that because this type of thing happens in court.
	It happens in court, and lawyers are given tremendous latitude in court, but I don't think it was ethical at all.
	You do what you have to do.
	Well, some lawyers do, and these did, and I thought they were unethical, but whether it's grounds for intervention by the bar or not, I don't know.
	I thought he was guilty.
	I still think that he is guilty.
	I've always thought so.
	However, at one point during the trial, when there was a motion to suppress because of the little tiny spot of blood found in the Bronco initially, and then jumping the fence, I thought that that Motion should have succeeded.
	Do you have any comment on that?
	Well, I don't think so.
	Both judges, Kathleen Paul Kennedy at the preliminary hearing and Ido at the trial, ruled that Simpson's Fourth Amendment rights were not violated.
	What you have here is Rockingham is only about two miles away from Bundy, and the police, the detectives, felt that it almost looked like an extension of the crime scene.
	They go there, And they find a dot of blood, a spot of blood above the door handle on the Bronco.
	That alone is not enough to go over that fence.
	But here's the additional evidence and circumstances that the judges felt constituted sufficient cause to go over the fence without a search warrant.
	They had been told, the detectives by Westec, that's the security agency that worked for Simpson, that there was a live-in maid.
	They'd been told that.
	There's a live-in maid.
	Now they went to the phone, they called inside the residence, they also Rang the intercom at the gate.
	No one answered inside.
	Even though there was supposed to be a live-in maid, there were lights on inside the house, there were two cars in the driveway, and those circumstances are called exigent.
	Exigent circumstances justifying going over the wall because there may be someone might be dead or hurt that needs immediate attention.
	Now once they got over the wall and saw blood on the driveway and in the foyer, etc., then of course Simpson became a suspect.
	Up to that point, He was a suspect only in a generic sense that when a wife or former wife is murdered, the husband or former husband, they're immediately people that detectives routinely check out.
	But that was a close call, though.
	Well, it may have been a close call.
	At the point before they jumped the fence.
	Yeah, but there were quite a few things indicating to them that someone may be inside who needs help, because with the lights on and two cars in the driveway, and they're supposed to be a live-in maid, How come no one's answering the phone?
	Sure, sure.
	Alright, Judge Ito.
	Your comments on Judge Ito through the trial.
	Did he bend over too far backwards?
	Was he afraid of an appeals ruling that would overturn everything?
	I think all judges are afraid of that.
	I think he was democratic in his incompetence, but he was very conscientious and he tried to be fair to both sides.
	He made some terrible rulings.
	Perhaps his worst ruling was allowing the defense to get into the race issue.
	Thus far, the defense attorneys have gotten all the blame from the American people on injecting race into the case, and they deserve all the blame that they're getting and then some, but Ito, prior to my book, has gotten a free ride on this issue.
	He doesn't get a free ride on my book.
	I blame him 100% for allowing this case to turn into a racial case, and the reason I do is that he allowed the defense attorneys to do it, and he should have done that.
	Under 352 of the California Evidence Code, If the relevance of evidence offered, in this case we're talking about whether Fuhrman had used the N-word in the past 10 years, if that relevance is substantially outweighed by the probability of prejudice to the opposing side, you keep it out.
	And here, the relevance of Fuhrman using the N-word in the past 10 years was extremely remote at best.
	I mean, it's a non sequitur and a broad jump of Olympian proportions to conclude that just because someone has used the N-word, or even if they're racist, that they're going to go around framing innocent people of murder But the probability of prejudice to the prosecution was more than the requisite substantial.
	It was monumental.
	So under 352 of the Evidence Code, Ito should have kept it out.
	It was an egregiously poor ruling on his part.
	After he ruled that way, as you know, the ferment tapes surfaced.
	Sure.
	And it changed the complexion of the entire trial.
	If Ito didn't want to follow the law, if he wanted to snub his nose at the law, common sense, common sense, which he had precious little of throughout this entire trial, would have dictated to him that you don't allow the defense to do that.
	Every single day, thousands of white police officers arrest or investigate black suspects.
	Does anyone really believe that when these thousands upon thousands of cases come to court, that it's perfectly proper to ask every one of these officers if he's ever used the n-word, and if he denies it, and you can show he did, have a separate satellite trial on that issue, which is exactly what happened in the Furman case?
	That's absurd on his face!
	Edo was off base here And the prosecution had to pay for Edo's sins.
	But even with the bad ruling by Edo, if the prosecution knew how to handle the Furman situation, they could have mitigated the damage substantially.
	I don't know if we're going to have time to get into it, but they could not have handled the Furman situation worse.
	If we have time, we can get into it.
	All right.
	How much general blame do you lay on the LAPD?
	Not that much.
	They did an adequate job.
	They could have been better, no question about it.
	But the media, they somehow thought that the LAPD lost this case before it came to trial.
	I don't believe that for a moment.
	You put any case under a high-powered microscope, particularly when you have all of this scientific evidence, all the blood, all the physical evidence, and so many people involved, you're going to inevitably have a few discrepancies here and there, incompetence, slip-ups, unanswered questions, but they don't add up to a hill of beans.
	All right, if you pull Fuhrman out of the case altogether, is there a conviction?
	If Furman were not involved at all in this case, the defense would have had a more difficult time arguing the conspiracy theory and injecting race into the case, but they would have found some way to do it.
	Although it would have been more anemic, the prosecution would have had a greater likelihood of a conviction without Furman.
	Is there any one thing you can think of that if you were to just pull it from the case would have made it a slide to conviction?
	A slide, you say?
	A slide, yeah, a lock, a lock.
	No, no, no, because of this jury, the president, let me say this, the prosecution, when they presented scientific DNA evidence that Simpson's blood was found at the murder scene, they did, they did in fact prove Simpson's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond all doubt.
	But we were dealing here with a jury that was not operating with too much intellectual firepower, number one.
	Number two, many of them, particularly the black jurors, were probably biased in Simpson's favor.
	However, here's the key point.
	A powerfully presented case in summation, which we didn't have here at all, light years away from that, where you put a bib on the jury and you spoon-feed them, can handle both of those problems.
	But this was a problem jury, no question about it.
	And with a problem jury, it's going to be difficult to get a conviction, but you can do it!
	You can do it!
	We're talking here about an F-minus presentation, and yet the first vote that this jury took back in that jury room, people tend to forget this, a black juror and a white juror voted guilty on the first ballot.
	That's the first ballot an hour after they entered the jury room.
	If you can get a 10-2 with an F-minus presentation, you can imagine by extrapolation what would have happened if you'd had an A-plus performance which the people of the state of california were entitled
	to i think almost assuredly ministry
	uh... part even a c dot you had a guilty verdict or the minimum a hungary but i
	think you have problems with this jury unless you have
	and a post-performance the only type of jury the only type of jury that you can't turn around art
	at the type of jury whose state of mind is even though we know jay's guilty uh... we don't care
	We like OJ.
	Blacks have been discriminated against by whites throughout the years.
	We're going to give OJ two free murders.
	But let me tell you, Art, it would be extremely difficult to find even one juror with that outrageous state of mind, much less all 12.
	And in looking at the backgrounds of these jurors, for instance, the Simpson four-person was the 1990 L.A.
	County Employee of the Year.
	Listening to what they said on radio and television, Reading a book written by three of them, I get no sense that even one of them had that state of mind, and I don't believe it for one single moment.
	So, this was not the best jury, but they would have responded to an A-plus performance.
	What happened here...
	Is that the prosecution allowed this jury to live with their conscience.
	They did not eliminate for this jury all possibilities of Simpson being found not guilty.
	All right.
	Had not the Paul of the Rodney King business and the riots and all the rest of it been hanging over this, which it was.
	Right.
	How much difference would that have made?
	Well, no question about it.
	That affected the verdict.
	But again, again, invariably we come back to the unbelievable incompetence of these prosecutors.
	Here's what Cochran did, and it was duplicitous on his part.
	It went right over the head of Darden, who's a black, went right over his head.
	Cochran argued to this jury a police frame-up from their experience of police brutality.
	Police brutality and frame-up are two completely different types of misconduct.
	Darden never distinguished these two types in the jury's mind.
	What the black community has been experiencing throughout the years From a small segment of the LAPD and other major forces around the country, maybe 2, 3, 4 percent, that stain the blue uniform of the other officers, what they've been experiencing is excessive force, police brutality, and then of course the police lie to cover it up, okay?
	That's what they've been experiencing.
	Frame-ups, frame-ups by the police for burglaries, robberies, rapes, murders, virtually, virtually unheard of.
	It's not done.
	It's not common.
	I know this.
	I've talked to enough blacks.
	I've talked to people who work in the black community.
	That's almost unheard of.
	And yet, Darden did not see this issue.
	Time Magazine did not see the issue.
	Time said, well, obviously it was easy for this jury to buy the frame of argument.
	All the jury had to replay in their mind is the tape of Rodney King getting beaten by the LAPD, as if Rodney King getting beaten by the LAPD is the same thing as the LAPD.
	In other words, as if the LAPD beating Rodney King It's essentially the same as they're framing O.J.
	Simpson.
	Two totally, completely different types of police misconduct, and it's my belief, without knowing, that this jury, back in the jury room, was thinking, this is the LAPD, we know we can't trust them, you know, there's a reasonable doubt here they may have framed O.J., instead of thinking to themselves, wait a while, yeah, maybe we can't trust the LAPD for certain things, but frame ups?
	That's absurd!
	I was on San Diego radio last week and a 55-year-old black woman called in and she was tearing into me about the LAPD and the San Diego Police Department and the way they mistreat blacks.
	I said, no ma'am.
	She believed there was a frame-up and all that.
	I said, ma'am, I'm going to ask you a question now and I want you to think about it and I want you to answer it right away.
	Think about it before you answer.
	You're 55 years of age.
	I want you to look back into your past.
	Has it ever happened to you or any member of your family, any relative, any close friend have they ever been framed? In other words, they're
	completely innocent, the police come along, have they ever been framed for a burglary, a robbery, a
	rape, an arson, or murder? I'm not exaggerating, Art. She paused for five, ten seconds, and
	these were her words, no. She hadn't thought about it. You follow? Sure. And Darden should have pointed
	this out to this jury if It would have been an illuminating moment for all of them.
	He didn't do it.
	It went right over his head.
	All right, look, we're near the top of the hour, but I want to ask you very quickly.
	Once the trial got underway, was there juror targeting?
	That I can't tell you.
	I mean, I can tell you right now, I don't know that.
	How do you say juror targeting?
	I mean, targeting by both sides.
	Were they both, uh...
	Were they both playing games and pulling jurors off they didn't think were favorable to their side?
	Oh, that!
	Oh yeah, of course!
	That's done in every trial.
	It's called a peremptory challenge where you don't have to give any reason whatsoever.
	If you don't like the way someone looks at you, the color of their tie... No, no, I'm talking about once the trial was underway.
	Oh, once the trial was underway.
	Yeah, there was a little bit of that, but it wasn't too successful because Ito was not discharging people, jurors, unless he came up with some evidence of possible impropriety.
	You know, one of them was... Well, I'm recalling the anonymous letter.
	Yeah, right, but I mean, he was under the impression that perhaps this woman was going to write a book.
	Whether she was or not, I don't know, but there was some evidence that went...
	In that direction, and yes, the defense wanted to get rid of her, of course, because she was perceived to be pro-prosecution, but Edo didn't just willy-nilly discharge her.
	Alright, look, we're at the top of the hour.
	Give me 30 more minutes, because I've got a couple more questions.
	Okay.
	Alright, good.
	Vincent DiBugliosi is my guest.
	He will be back in a moment.
	His book, Outrage, number one on the New York Times bestseller list.
	Right back.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
	And I have autism.
	I have autism.
	And I have autism.
	I have autism.
	Premier Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	My guest is Vincent T. Bugliosi.
	His book is Outraged, The Five Reasons Why O.J.
	Simpson Got Away with Murder.
	It is, for the second week, number one on the New York Times bestseller list, and we'll get back to him in a moment.
	uh... he's got an interview to do uh... early in the morning about six o'clock
	in the morning so we're squeezing for another thirty minutes here in a moment
	looking for the truth You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM.
	You know, in the days of our parents, they never would have questioned government.
	Nowadays, people are beginning to say, you know what?
	Something's wrong.
	I'm not happy with this.
	I mean, what's going on here?
	Why are they so obsessed with trying to control us?
	Well, I personally think there are tremendous numbers of people out there who know they're not being told the truth, and no one is talking to us, so we need to help each other.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring coast to coast a m from july twenty third nineteen ninety
	six all right back now to uh... vincent people we'll see it
	Vincent, thank you for staying.
	I know you've got an early interview.
	Non-stop interviews, I guess, huh?
	This, again, relates to the Simpson trial.
	It's an important question.
	Was there anything in Clark's or Darden's track record or background that should have set off warning bells to Gil Garcetti before selecting them to do the prosecution?
	Well, I had never heard of either one of them before, but that really doesn't mean anything because we have a thousand prosecutors at the DA's office here in L.A.
	and there's one central office and about 18 outline offices.
	I have since learned that Clark was perceived to be among the top prosecutors down at the DA's office.
	No one that I know has said that Chris Darden was perceived to be a top prosecutor.
	Why he was brought on the case, I don't know.
	He did handle The AC Collings situation in front of the grand jury when the DA was contemplating seeking an indictment against Collings.
	So we got a little background there because that was an ancillary part of this case, whether Collings would be indicted for being an accessory after the fact to murder.
	Sure.
	And then there was also the argument of whether he was a token black.
	But I can tell you a little bit about his background because I've checked into it at least the seven years prior to the trial.
	He told the jury, I'm talking about Darden, I've been prosecuting bad cops for seven years.
	Well, I happen to know that the DA doesn't prosecute bad cops here in L.A.
	It's extremely rare, and the Rodney King situation was no exception.
	I can just about guarantee you, Art, that if there hadn't been a tape there by that George Holliday, the 81-second tape, Private Citizen, no one would have ever heard the name Rodney King.
	In fact, Rodney King's brother went up to the foothill division of the LAPD the day after the beating, And this is before the LAPD knew about the tape, and he wanted to file a complaint against these officers.
	And the desk sergeant said, look, your brother's in a lot of trouble.
	There wasn't going to be any filing against these four officers.
	In any event, when Darden said, I've been prosecuting bad cops for seven years, I started thinking, well, wait a while.
	Is this in the middle of the night with the goblins out?
	I mean, how come I haven't heard about this?
	So I called down the office.
	Spoke to two fellow deputy DAs down there who worked alongside Darden in the Special Investigations Division of the DA's office, which is responsible for prosecuting police misconduct cases.
	Here's what they told me.
	That in the seven years leading up to this trial, 1987 to 1994, Darden tried one case and one case only.
	It was a misdemeanor case, wasn't even a felony case, and he lost it.
	It's a 39th and Dalton Street case.
	39th and Dalton, there was a duplex there.
	So then what do you say?
	get crack out of the police went in there and trashed it looking for crack
	we were prosecuted for vandalism and darden handle it and lost that case and if you look at his book
	he mentioned a lot of cases in f i d uh... but the only case that he mentioned taken the trial
	if you read very closely with thirty-nine to dot three people he didn't
	really have a sufficient background for the so then what do you say
	because of color Well, I don't know.
	I don't really know why he was brought in.
	Now, before those seven years, I don't know what his background is.
	He says that he had prosecuted quite a few homicide cases, and he may be telling the truth.
	I don't know about that, and he may have been successful, but I can tell you that when he told the jury, I've been prosecuting bad cops for seven years, he was not telling the truth.
	He was investigating bad cops for seven years, but not prosecuting them.
	I thought his public image was lousy.
	As I watched the trial, I fully expected Darden at any moment to go jumping across the room and slug somebody.
	And that is what it looked like.
	Yeah, he did have a chip on his shoulder.
	Boy, I'll tell you.
	That's pretty colorful, the way you articulated it there.
	Let me give you one just unbelievable example of incompetence between the two prosecutors in this case, and it just illustrates... And again, the book is 356 pages of this type of thing.
	You're aware of the Van Adder bringing the vile blood back to Rockingham?
	You're aware of that whole issue?
	Oh yes.
	Let me just briefly tell you why he did it.
	Normally, you collect blood from a suspect in a homicide case a couple days later, a week later, a month later, sometimes even a couple years later, because there's no statute of limitations for the crime of murder.
	So it's not within hours after the murders, as was the case here.
	Now, the defense argued that he should have booked that vial of blood immediately, and he could have done that.
	Normally you do not get a DR number, which you need to book items of evidence, until the evidence at the crime scene has been collected by the criminalist pursuant to the search warrant.
	Here that hadn't been done yet.
	Fung was still at Rockingham, first he had been at Bundy, collecting the evidence.
	And evidence is booked sequentially, by number.
	So if he had booked that vial, It would have been item number one, but the reason he didn't do that is he had no way of knowing what number Fung was giving to the items of evidence that he was collecting at Bundy and Rockingham and would have messed up the whole numbering system.
	Yeah, but it would have made the argument that he had carried it around and had opportunity impossible.
	Yeah, right.
	But yes, so it was inadvisable, but I mean, how could he ever dream that people like Shaq and Cochran are out there accusing him of framing someone for murder?
	I mean, here's a guy 28 years on the force, Not one citizen complained against him in 28 years.
	He's about to retire in a few months with his wife, Rita, to his farm in Indiana, and he's going to frame O.J.
	Simpson?
	It's mind-boggling!
	You plant evidence in a capital case in California and testify falsely, you can get the death penalty yourself under 128 of the California Penal Code.
	The prosecutors never even made that argument.
	In any event, Fung had already given item number one to the spot of blood above the door handle.
	Van Adder brings the vile blood back to Funk, and any detective will tell you that when they turn over items of evidence to the criminalist, in their mind, that's the equivalent of booking.
	I'm giving you the background as to why he brought it back here.
	Why he brought it back to Rockingham at 5.20pm on the day after the murders.
	But here's the point that I want to get into.
	The defense argument of police frame-up and conspiracy and all that, at the heart of that very argument was Van Natter bringing the vile blood back, and what they claimed is that Van Natter and his evil co-conspirators took blood out of that vile and planted it at Rockingham and Bundy.
	It was a major, major, major issue at the trial.
	Post-trial, post-trial, several of the jurors said that it was the most suspicious thing that the LAPD did during the entire case, okay?
	Now, there are several arguments that the prosecution could have made to knock down this core defense argument about Maynard bringing the vile blood back to Rockingham.
	I mentioned several in the book.
	I'll just give you two very brief ones right here.
	If he was going to bring the vile blood back to Rockingham, obviously he'd put it in his suit pocket.
	He wouldn't put it in a large envelope, thereby advertising to everyone that he was bringing something onto the premises.
	That's just common sense.
	Good point.
	Number two.
	Number two.
	Van Adder already knew that hundreds upon hundreds of reporters and other members of the media had already congregated at Rockingham and Bundy, their cameras blanketing the premises, picking up for the evening news, all the movements of everyone on the estate, there were helicopters up above filming everything down below.
	Obviously, planting would have been absolutely impossible.
	There are many, many other arguments.
	Now, what if I told you, what if I told you, listen to this because it's unbelievable, there's no other adjective, That in the eight hours of summation that these two prosecutors gave, neither Clark nor Darden said one single word to try to knock down this court defense argument about Van Adder bringing the vile blood back to Rockingham.
	They never once even touched on the issue.
	I checked the transcript three times.
	I had my wife check it because it was unbelievable.
	I said, there's got to be some attempt to knock this down because it goes to the heart of the defense case.
	Art, when you get to the point when you don't even open up your mouth and utter one single, solitary word on an absolutely critical issue, the question is, how does it get any worse?
	We're not talking incompetence here.
	We're talking beyond incompetence.
	If you didn't show up for work, Art, I wouldn't say that you were incompetent.
	Incompetence is showing up for work and doing a bad job.
	These people didn't even argue, they're not even showing up for work!
	What about the angle that Van Adder carried it out in the envelope?
	A lot of people thought, well, Fuhrman socked away a little bit of it.
	Remember the sock business?
	And took it over and planted it.
	That's what... Well, not the sock, the glove.
	The glove.
	Okay, alright, here now.
	There were 14 uniformed officers that arrived at the Bundy murder scene before Fuhrman.
	Before Fuhrman.
	Fuhrman arrived there after 2 o'clock.
	That's right.
	These murders happened around...
	Oh, there's a division.
	A window.
	But somewhere between 10.15 and 10.35 PM on the evening of June the 12th.
	Correct.
	The first officer arrives right after midnight.
	Okay, there were 18 uniformed officers that arrived there before Fuhrman.
	All of them saw only one glove.
	So there was no second glove there for Fuhrman to pick up.
	And deposit at Rockingham!
	Even if he wanted to!
	Even if he wanted to frame Simpson by planting the glove, there was no second glove there!
	Unless 18 officers would have been willing to take the stand and commit perjury for Furman!
	Now, mind you, 18 officers, they all made this statement in front of Internal Affairs, but Clark only called 2 out of the 18 to the witness stand, instead of calling the other 16.
	She had the other 16 there, she knew their names, She didn't bother calling all 18.
	The more you call to that stand, the greater the unlikelihood that all 18 are going to commit perjury in a capital case just to help someone most of whom they didn't even know.
	Why didn't she do that?
	Incompetence!
	Gross!
	Utter, complete... I just... I could give you an example here on the Van Atter vile blood issue.
	Sure.
	Nothing could have been more important than that.
	She didn't even open up her mouth once.
	Alright, well, so then the bottom line is, after all this, uh, O.J.
	walks, and just about everybody else's life on both sides is more or less ruined.
	I'm trying... I'm doing my best, by the way, in the book, not intentionally, but to help Mark Furman.
	In fact, Mark Furman's, uh, mother called me today down at the office, and I called her back.
	She wasn't home, but she wants to thank me for what I've said in the book about Uh, about Furman.
	You see, here's another area.
	On the Furman situation, when it came out, in the first place, the prosecution themselves should have made Furman cough up that he's used the N-word.
	They knew he had, they should have known that.
	They had been given two statements by the defense, from credible people, no axe to grind, that he'd used the N-word.
	Also his disability pension hearings.
	He used the N-word several years earlier.
	So what do you do in a case like that?
	Preempt.
	You preempt.
	That's the exact word.
	You put it on yourself.
	You put it behind you.
	It becomes a dead issue.
	The ferment tapes don't even surface.
	If they did, they wouldn't have even been admissible because they wouldn't be impeaching anything.
	Not only did the prosecutors do that art, but then they compounded the problem.
	When the defense brought in all of this evidence, instead of trying to mitigate the damage, They joined in the vilification of Furman.
	Here's Marsha Clark talking to the jury in final summation.
	She said, do we wish this man did not exist on the face of this planet?
	Answer yes.
	Now here's why Furman's mother called me and why people are learning a little bit more about Furman because it's all in the book.
	It didn't come out of the trial.
	Mark Furman used to be a racist, no question about it, but he's not that bad a guy.
	In 1994, that's when the Furman case ended.
	Uh, the last time on those Furman tapes he had used the N-word was in 1988, six years earlier.
	In 1994, Mark Furman had black friends.
	He was getting up two, three mornings a week, playing basketball at five in the morning with fellow black officers.
	More importantly, Art, I've confirmed this, Mark Furman in 1994 worked very hard to free a black man by the name of Eric Harris, who was charged with the murder of a white man, Sean Stewart, When he came upon evidence favorable to Harris, in fact, he got the DA's office to dismiss the charges against Harris.
	Now, when you have the Furman tapes being perceived by everyone to be very devastating to the prosecution, don't you automatically offer, Art, to this predominantly black jury the fact that Furman worked hard to free a black man who was charged with the murder of a white man?
	The question is, why don't you?
	They did not do it.
	Ron Phillips, Furman's partner, told me he gave the file to the prosecutors.
	They didn't do it.
	It's incompetent.
	It's unbelievable.
	It's almost criminal that they did not offer that evidence.
	Furman used to be a racist.
	He does not appear to be a racist anymore.
	And you're talking about people's lives being ruined.
	Here's a guy that gets up in the middle of the night, goes to the crime scene, does nothing wrong at all, and his life is ruined.
	Ruined.
	Well, really, in a lot of ways, almost everybody around the trial is ruined.
	One way or the other, or tarnished at the very least.
	Listen, I want to switch gears on you because we've got such little time.
	I want you to hear something.
	You wrote Helter Skelter, another absolute bestseller, number one bestseller.
	I've always thought Manson was the most evil thing I've ever seen or heard.
	I think it was Sixteen Minutes did an interview that just sent a chill down my spine.
	And I got this fax last night and I'd like you to respond to it.
	Dear Art, I just heard you say That you believe Charles Manson to be an evil person, based on television appearances you might have seen.
	Try to consider that all televised interviews with Manson are carefully edited to make him appear to be crazy, evil, etc.
	I've spoken to Manson one-on-one for hours and hours, found him to be friendly, interesting, and even respectful.
	Vincent T. Bugliosi has a vested interest in supporting the idea that Manson is a man to be feared.
	He has a book to sell, Helter Skelter.
	Truth is, Manson is a human being, like any other.
	And the false idea of him as a crazy evil monster is nothing more than a myth.
	This myth was largely created by Vincent Bugliosi and is perpetrated by the media, yourself included.
	You and Bugliosi have too much to lose by allowing the actual truth regarding Manson to be known.
	If the truth about him and his actual lack of participation in the infamous Tate-LaBianca murders became public knowledge, Bugliosi and countless media vampires would lose the best thing they've ever had, a symbol of evil, And you would be left unable to spend an evening of glad-handing with Vincent Boliosi.
	I expected more out of you.
	Blah, blah, blah.
	You want to respond to that?
	Who's the guy that wrote you this letter?
	Unsigned.
	Well, no, no, no.
	Wait.
	It's from James in Seattle.
	James in Seattle.
	Yeah.
	Well, he said that Manson did not participate in these murders.
	Hitler wasn't at Auschwitz either, but Manson was the architect of a conspiracy to commit these murders.
	He was convicted of nine murders, is believed to be responsible for 35, and I say 35 because the Manson family claims to have offed, O-F-T-E-D, uh, 35 people.
	Uh, I've always referred to Manson as a very evil, sophisticated con man.
	Someone who knows Manson a lot better than I do, because he lived with Manson, said, uh, Charlie, uh, uh, death, death is Charlie's trip.
	Death is Charlie's trip.
	He wanted to murder as many people as he could have.
	If he had an opportunity, he would not have stopped.
	That's what he seems to say in the interviews now.
	The charge is they left the best part of him on the cutting room floor.
	No.
	No?
	Well, there was a little editing of the interview that he had with Geraldo and with Tom Snyder years ago.
	But Manson himself has said, you know, that he'd murder as many people as he could have.
	He denies complicity in these murders, obviously, because he wants to be set free.
	But he has said more than once, if he had an opportunity, he'd murder 50 million people.
	So apparently this guy doesn't know what's coming out of Manson's mouth.
	Manson can charm people, just like O.J.
	Simpson can.
	But he's an evil, sophisticated conman.
	Who was his hero?
	Who was his hero, Manson?
	Adolf Hitler.
	Adolf Hitler.
	He said that Hitler was a tuned-in guy who had leveled the karma of the Jews, that Hitler had the right answer for everything.
	So this James, I don't think he knows I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
	Yes, Manson did not participate in these murders, which made it a little bit more difficult to convict him.
	I had to bring him in by way of circumstantial evidence, by showing that only he had the motive for these murders, that he controlled these people, that they never would have committed these murders without his direction and guidance.
	But he's the one that ordered these murders!
	Is he a different man today?
	Well, he has sent me four letters since 1972.
	Manson is very intelligent, and he speaks in riddles, but there's usually some underlying message.
	The last letter I got from him about two years ago was just hopelessly garbled.
	I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
	All right, one more here.
	I would like to ask, says Rick in Reno, why you consistently, you, Vincent, oppose the release of Leslie Van Houten, one of the three girls I'm acquainted with, Leslie, old friend of my wife's.
	I also know her parents, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	And apparently her father now in his 70s tells me he's vowed to live to see his daughter free, even if he has to make it to 120.
	Well, if anyone gets out, obviously it should be Leslie for the simple reason that she was not involved in the five Kate murders.
	She's been convicted of two murders, but not the seven murders of the others.
	And Manson, of course, has been convicted of nine.
	Leslie Van Houten may be rehabilitated.
	I don't know.
	I forget the girl's name, the lady's name.
	Diane Sawyer had a special on the girls in 1995, I think, or 1994, and they made a good impression.
	Millions around the country saw them, and they formed the conclusion that these female defendants had been rehabilitated.
	Let's assume, for the sake of argument, That these girls are rehabilitated, that they'll never do it again.
	I'm not in any position to make any assessment of that.
	I haven't seen them personally since 1971.
	Where people are not thinking clearly here is that they're assuming that when you're rehabilitated, you're entitled to be set free.
	Is that the only reason why we incarcerate people?
	Certainly, that's one of the reasons we put people behind bars.
	It's not the main reason.
	Yeah, there's punishment.
	Yeah, there's two other reasons.
	One is punishment.
	And when we talk about punishment, we're talking about justice.
	I mean, people say justice is fine, but retribution is bad.
	You know, that's prehistoric or whatever it is.
	But how can you have justice without retribution?
	Justice is just a euphemistic way of saying retribution and punishment.
	There's another reason why we put people behind bars.
	It's part of the main reason.
	It's deterrence to set an example.
	That's right.
	We put people behind bars.
	We punish them to tell prospective criminals that if you violate the law, you're going to be punished.
	I've got you, Vincent.
	We're out of time.
	Listen, one last question.
	Should Charlie Manson ever See the light of day.
	Absolutely, a thousand percent.
	No, he was sentenced to death.
	All right, my friend, I've got to go.
	We report at the bottom of the hour, and if I don't let you go, I've got to keep you.
	Okay, very good.
	Okay, Art.
	I appreciate it.
	Thank you.
	Have a good interview in the morning.
	Take care, my friend.
	The number one New York Times bestseller, Outrage, five reasons why O.J.
	Simpson got away with murder.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We'll be right back.
	The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
	More, somewhere in time, coming up.
	I'm going to be a good boy.
	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	♪♪♪ You are listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	Good morning.
	It's good to be here.
	Well, we just spent an hour and a half with Vincent T. Boliosi and his number one bestseller, Outrage, the five reasons why O.J.
	Simpson got away with murder.
	Fascinating guy.
	We'll have to have him back.
	Alright, well, we're gonna go to open lines in a moment.
	The TWA 800 crash continues to be the central focus of current events.
	There is no forensic evidence to support the theory at this point, but FBI Assistant Director James Halstrom says there is, quoting, circumstantial evidence that TWA Flight 800 was, listen now, brought down by a bomb or missile.
	As a matter of fact, At the very highest level now, there is nothing but utter confusion.
	Nobody seems to know what's going on.
	Leon Panetta came out earlier in the day and said they'd found residue indicating there was an explosive device of some kind.
	About an hour later, FBI came out.
	As a matter of fact, Panetta had to say, well, not yet.
	So, nobody seems to know what the hell's going on.
	The FBI has been busily interviewing boat rental joints on Long Island.
	That would indicate they think that... Do you remember the first night I said somebody with a stinger from a boat in the water?
	I think they think that.
	One hundred!
	One hundred eyewitnesses, including two military pilots on a commercial flight Said they saw a missile.
	Two military pilots on a commercial flight, according to ABC, said they saw a missile.
	Now, you think about that.
	You think very hard about that.
	And now, of course, the pinging is gone, so they've not come up with the black boxes.
	There again, they had found a black box, and then Later information that they don't have the black box, that it's no longer pinging, what the hell's going on here?
	And that is that the tenor of Louis in San Diego says, Dear Art, what's really going on with Flight 800?
	This isn't meant to be funny, but there seems to be some kind of Roswell mentality at work here.
	One government agency says they found traces of a possible explosive device.
	A little while later, another agency says, no, there's no evidence of a bomb.
	We're told they're tracking the ping of the black boxes.
	Then, it's reported they've recovered one of them.
	Still later, we're told, well, they lost it.
	The FBI claims that about 100 eyewitnesses reported seeing something resembling a flare.
	But of course, someone else says no.
	There's no indication a missile was involved.
	For every major air disaster I recall in the last 30 years or so, no official information was released until they were positive they had the facts straight.
	Is Flight 800 a case of no one having the facts straight?
	Is one agency trying to cover up something without being able to let the other agencies involved know what they're covering up?
	Or is it simply right hand not knowing what the left hand's doing?
	It doesn't even know the left hand exists.
	Please, don't let them hit a weather balloon here.
	Is it just one case?
	We'll never really be told what really occurred, or is it Too soon to tell, with all respect to those involved.
	I can't help but wonder, Lewis in San Diego.
	I'm with you, Lewis.
	This whole thing gets stranger by the moment.
	What seemed to be a straight-on investigation, I don't know what to make of it.
	I just don't know what to make of it.
	All right, I've got an awful lot more stuff here, and I'll kind of hold on to some of it.
	Yesterday, we were asking you, what is it That you now know, with the wisdom of your age, that you now know about life, that you wish you had known 20 years ago.
	And somebody sent me some emails, said, hey Art, my wife had a great answer to that question.
	She said she wished she knew about all the things that don't matter at all.
	from Missoula.
	She wished she had known about all the things that really don't matter at all.
	Alright, we're going to take calls and we're going to do open lines.
	I want to remind everybody this Friday night, Saturday morning, Richard Hoagland is going to be here.
	That should be quite a program indeed.
	Oh, the news from Japan also.
	8,000 people are now ill, 7 dead.
	It's all across Japan.
	It's E. coli, and they have no idea where the hell it's coming from.
	It's to the point now where parents are keeping their children home.
	It's some sort of strain of E. coli, and the scientists thus far don't even have a hint.
	People are talking about uncooked meat.
	That may turn out to be it, but right now they don't know.
	They have no idea.
	Thousands of people getting very ill.
	Many on the critical list.
	You have no idea how serious this is.
	I want to thank this caller for waiting, and I'm sorry I couldn't get to you earlier, sir.
	You are now on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Wayne from Santa Barbara.
	Hi, Wayne.
	I just want to say I really appreciate your show and appreciate your lifestyle and everything else.
	My question is about the jet that went down.
	Yes, sir.
	It seems to me that if it really was a terrorist or someone who planted a bomb, they wouldn't have set this timer, so to speak, so it would have gone off over the water.
	Well, now remember that this flight was late by an hour.
	This flight should have been about an hour farther out into the Atlantic.
	Exactly my point.
	Thus, it would have gone off without any real witnesses or any trace.
	That's right.
	And I think that someone who was trying to blow the plane up and make some sort of a statement would have had that happen either on the ground or in front of witnesses.
	You know what I think?
	I'm beginning to think the FBI believes it was a missile.
	They're all over Long Island right now, checking with people, renting boats and all the rest of it.
	Now, why would they be doing that?
	The only thing you can do to an airplane from a boat is fire a shoulder-fired missile.
	That's it.
	Well, I see your point, certainly.
	I hope that that black box winds up surfacing and can give some information.
	I think a better question is whether it already has surfaced.
	But all those people who... I hate to be suspicious.
	I really do, because I want to trust our government.
	But frankly, it was pinging.
	Then all of a sudden, no more pings.
	Well, one good reason you won't have any more pings is there's nothing down there to ping!
	Well, we should follow and see what happens to the lives of these people who were witnesses who feel they saw a flare or a missile being launched.
	Well, we should.
	Thank you very much.
	The testimony that I find most credible of all are two military pilots, according to ABC, who were on a commercial flight and watched a missile rise to Flight 800.
	Now, that's tough testimony to refute.
	Now, where did the missile come from?
	I don't know.
	A terrorist in a boat?
	A U.S.
	live-fire exercise of some kind?
	You would think we'd certainly know about that by now.
	After all, the Pentagon should know where and when they fired missiles.
	That should not be a mystery at this juncture, should it?
	There's something rotten in Denmark.
	Or, more appropriately, off the Long Island shore, something's wrong here.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Lawrence.
	Yes, sir.
	I think the government knows what happened.
	I don't want to believe that.
	I know a lot of people, there's even people out there right now who are saying the government did it.
	I'm not one of those people, and I don't want to believe that, and I don't believe it, really, that they did it.
	Now, do they know what really happened?
	Yes, I think it's entirely possible that they know What happened?
	Now, I understand they're not going to release to the public information until they're reasonably sure, until they've got good evidence in hand.
	But thus far, the way the public statements, even at the highest level, even up at Panetta's level, they're all mixed up.
	And it's not exactly inspiring confidence in people like me.
	I don't know about you.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Tell us where you're calling from.
	I'm calling from Galveston Island in the Gulf of Mexico.
	That's Galveston, Texas.
	Yes, sir.
	Of course.
	Go ahead.
	Oh.
	Am I on?
	Sir, we don't screen calls.
	Turn your radio off.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry.
	I have got the answer in a roundabout way.
	But I don't want to get off into the Gulf War.
	I'd rather talk about this missile launch from an ultralight airplane towards the 800 flights.
	Now, why are you saying ultralight?
	Well, because I was a pilot in 1947 and I've been flying ultralights the last few years because I lost my license.
	Altolight is the only airframe that you can fire a shoulder-mounted Stinger missile from because of the exhaust system.
	If you tried to fire one from a conventional airplane, you would fill the cockpit or whatever you were in with complete.
	At the early start of this thing, there was a pilot, a policeman from New York, and his wife were flying just about dark over this beach area.
	They had come back and landed.
	They were being interviewed by CNN, I believe.
	And CNN asked them the question, well, did you see any other airplanes?
	And it caught my ear immediately when this pilot said that, no, we didn't see any planes at all except an ultralight.
	Now, the ultralight doesn't have any lights on it.
	Right.
	And the ultralight is a, as I said, the only platform you could fire a stinger missile from people generally don't fly ultra
	lights uh... at night do they
	not much better terrorist warning some vehicle that they could launch an air to
	air muscle when you're up three or four thousand feet and ultralighted
	but becomes an air-to-air missile that's right rather than a surface-to-air missile right
	now call this into the to the f b i but of course you never get any feedback
	from anybody but then there are two ladies
	There were three interviews with telephone people on the beach.
	Two out of these three people initially, now we're all getting the feedback that there was a bright light and then an explosion.
	The bright light at 8,000 feet, which is a lot of confusion there, too.
	There is, because some people say it was 8,000, and I'm hearing figures up to 13,000.
	Now, which is it?
	Well, I heard that explained last night.
	The radar, the icon went off with a number in it, and then they replayed the radar thing, and the initial blast was at 8,000.
	Then they watched four pieces of wreckage fall for 25 seconds.
	They claim they saw that the plane was dropped from 13,000 to 8,000-some feet, because they can measure it on radar, and the plane was trying to be recovered.
	They said, I don't know, except that they don't have any voice recorder, unless they do have, and they're not telling us.
	And the plane then came apart at 8,000 feet, and the other four The four sections still seen on the enhanced radar when they replayed the tapes showed it crashing into the ocean 25 seconds later.
	I just heard that last night.
	Yes, sir.
	All right.
	Well, look, thank you.
	I'm telling you, folks, it's impossible.
	They have almost made it impossible to intelligently discuss the facts of this case.
	They have so muddied the waters with regard to the altitude of the airplane, With regard to the descriptions of the explosion, with regard to a hundred witnesses talking about something headed up toward that airplane, with regard to there is forensic evidence regarding a chemical trace, or there isn't, there's pinging, or there isn't, there's a major find with a hundred bodies trapped inside, or there isn't, that it's almost impossible.
	They have so clogged up this whole case with, um, indiscernible facts that it's almost getting hard to talk about.
	But I, again, I come back to two military pilots who were on a commercial aircraft and testified it was a missile.
	Now, that's professional, high-quality, eyewitness testimony And you may recall that a day afterwards, we were talking about a missile.
	Remember that?
	They said, no!
	No, we have now confirmed it is not a missile.
	And then a day later, all of a sudden, well, maybe it is a missile again.
	Well, dammit, which is it?
	In other words, at this point, is a missile a possibility, a probability, or not?
	And we get both answers.
	I don't know what to make of that.
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	You know, in the days of our parents, they never would have questioned government.
	Nowadays, people are beginning to say, you know what?
	Something's wrong.
	I'm not happy with this.
	I mean, what's going on here?
	Why are they so obsessed with trying to control us?
	Well, I personally think there are tremendous numbers of people out there who know they're not being told the truth.
	And no one is talking to us, so we need to help each other.
	Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
	Music Back to unscreened, open line talk radio.
	You get it as it comes.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Uh, yes, Art.
	This is Ann from Nashville.
	Hello, Ann.
	Hi.
	Can I speculate a little bit?
	That's all we can do, Ann.
	That's all we've got.
	The morning after the crash, did you see President Clinton?
	Yes.
	On television.
	You mean when he talked about Flight 100?
	Is that what he said?
	That's what he said, yeah.
	You know, the man usually looks pretty good when he's on TV.
	He looked awful.
	He looked devastated.
	He looked horrified.
	And I've been thinking about it ever since.
	I'm speculating now.
	Could they have received some kind of threat afterwards?
	Could the White House have received a threat like, this is what we can do to you, if you don't do as we say?
	Maybe something like this could have been Air Force One.
	Yes!
	Because it's a 747?
	Sure, sure, yes, sure.
	The answer is yes, they could have.
	And they wouldn't want the American people to know this?
	Would they tell us that?
	You know, that's a really good question.
	I think the answer to that is no, they would not tell us.
	I really do.
	I'm sorry to say that, but I believe they would not tell us.
	You've brought up a very good point.
	Would they tell us about such a threat?
	I think the answer is no.
	You know, he's afraid for his safety.
	He closed Pennsylvania Avenue.
	Yes, it's true.
	I watched Larry King's show last night on CNN.
	And there were Republicans on there.
	And I told my husband, I said, they certainly are decent to the Republicans tonight.
	They even let nice phone calls come in to them.
	You know, add to the speculation.
	Yeah, well, they do screen the calls.
	You can believe that.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, it's a well-made point, ma'am.
	Thank you very much.
	Let me think about that a little bit.
	Let's all think about that a little bit.
	One of our intelligence agencies had received a written threat, just prior to the downing of this aircraft, that said this could have been, or could be, Air Force One, or may be Air Force One, unless the following.
	Would such a threat be relayed to the general public?
	I would like to think that we have an open government that would tell us about such a thing, but frankly I don't believe that.
	And I'm not altogether sure that they should tell us about such a threat.
	Backed up with the obvious reality of the downing of Flight 800.
	If it was brought down by a missile, you can be damn sure there's more missiles.
	We injected, good proper word, a lot of missiles into Afghanistan.
	A lot of stingers, which we then, in recent years, the last couple of years, we have been trying to buy back from the Mujahideen.
	Of course, many of these missiles no doubt made their way to Iran.
	No question about that.
	Now, I'm not accusing Iran of being behind the downing of Flight 800, but these missiles are definitely on the loose.
	They're out there.
	And I presume that if you've got the money, you can certainly get your hands on a missile.
	You've got enough money today in this world, you can buy just about anything up to, and possibly even including, nuclear devices.
	So, to get a Stinger missile with enough money, I think, is not a big problem.
	Is it not?
	A wonderful world we live in today.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23rd 1996.
	I see them blue for me and you and I think to myself what a wonderful world.
	I see skies of blue and clouds of white.
	The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night.
	Can I think to myself?
	Her hair was hollow gold She left sweet pride
	Her hands were never cold She's got better days ahead
	She's got her music on you
	You won't have to think twice.
	She's pure as New York snow.
	She's got many days aside.
	And she'll ease you.
	She'll un-ease you.
	Call Rebecca just to please you.
	She's so courteous.
	And she knows just what it takes to make a program.
	Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
	Good morning from the high desert.
	Remember the name Kim Carnes?
	You know she actually performed this for Betty Davis before she passed away.
	Anyway, good morning everybody.
	Good to be with you.
	God, I love this thing.
	All right, we're talking about TWA Flight 800 once again for a lot of good reasons, and I've got another good response.
	I'm going to read it to you.
	It's from John.
	You make up your own mind.
	Dear Art, in answer to your question, the reason that there's been no claim of responsibility by a group, nation, or organization is because they got The wrong plane.
	The answer to your other two questions are yes to the first, no to the second.
	I believe that Flight 800 was mistaken for an Israeli flight and shot out of the sky with a high explosive surface-to-air missile.
	You'll notice that the CIA was brought into the case early on.
	I believe that not only do the FBI and CIA know how the 747 was taken down, but who did it And that the Clinton administration doesn't want you to know that they know.
	The reason they don't want you to know is because they know the public will demand retaliation and that is something that this president cannot do.
	Bill Clinton has very serious character flaws.
	His modus operandi is to stall until the heat dies so he'll not be forced to take any overt action.
	When the story is finally revealed, Bill Clinton will order sanctions Now, to be about the extent of the reprisal, Bill Clinton is the consummate pacifist.
	That is his nature.
	When asked to serve in Vietnam, he pleaded not to go.
	In fact, he fled the country to keep from going.
	Well, partially true.
	Would Bill Clinton order a retaliatory attack against a nation or group outside of the U.S.
	if it were proven who shot down this plane?
	The answer is obvious.
	Bill Clinton is incapable of any overt military action.
	So, this person says they got the wrong plane, maybe.
	I think the evidence is mounting that it was, or might have been, a missile.
	The very first night this occurred, I said on the air, and I'll say it again right now, that in my opinion, it could easily have been a missile, not from land, but from offshore, fired from a boat.
	The FBI is calling all over The eastern shore of Long Island.
	Talking to people, red boats, that kind of thing.
	They're all over the place.
	So, obviously, they think it possible too.
	ABC last night had testimony of two pilots, military pilots, military pilots, who were on a commercial flight and watched the missile rise.
	They said it, without equivocation, it was a missile.
	We are getting confusion from the highest places.
	Leon Panetta first says one thing, then another.
	The black boxes are radiating, then they're not.
	They've picked one up, then they haven't.
	They've detected explosives, then they haven't.
	The whole thing is turning into a zoo.
	Could it be They were actually after an Israeli plane.
	Then a lady called before this last hour and jumped one on us too!
	Here's a little more speculation for you.
	She called and said virtually, suppose somebody had given a warning to some intelligence agency in our government about what was about to occur and simply said, next time it could be Air Force One.
	And it sure as hell could have been.
	Air Force One is also a 747.
	If they can take down a 747 at 8... Well, there's another thing.
	13,000 feet or 8,000 feet, we don't know.
	But if they can take it down, they can take down Air Force One.
	So... Something's rotten off the shore of Long Island.
	And I don't know what.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	I was thinking, did you ever see the movie with Martin Sheen in it?
	or watching russian to turn off the radio while listening to you at the same
	time alright yes sir uh...
	i was thinking that when uh...
	did you ever see the movie with martin sheen in it and and at work he was playing the politician
	and he was and they were going to assassinate him and there was a child standing on the podium with him
	and he reached over yes yes yes Remember that?
	And he put the kid in front of him?
	Yes, sir, I do.
	That's a perfect ad for Democrats.
	They're always hiding behind children for every political argument.
	For every single one.
	Now, are you referring to something specific here?
	Well, just Democrats in general, because what they're saying is that we don't want to hurt the children.
	Every political argument is about the children.
	And on Clinton, on the 800 airplane, you're going to start seeing the President's plane using, they're going to be dropping flares on takeoff from now on.
	All right, thank you.
	Well, if it gets to the point where they've got to start dropping chaff and flares when the President takes off in Air Force One, well, then we've turned a corner in this country.
	A sharp corner.
	Hey listen, I just got a very interesting call from James at KFAB, our monster of an affiliate in Omaha, and he played me a report, a most remarkable report, about something going on down in Florida.
	Police in South Florida are now, at this hour, hunting for, and brace yourself, an animal That is killing pets and clawing cars.
	I'm serious.
	Killing pets and clawing cars.
	Something out there.
	Put deep claw marks in a 94 Lexus.
	Deep scratches.
	They've recovered footprints.
	Large claw footprints.
	And they've got hair samples.
	And they're presently testing them.
	And I thought I would let you know.
	And so I want to talk to somebody in South Florida.
	I want to get an update on this.
	What the hell's going on in South Florida?
	So would everybody on my East of the Rockies line please leave it alone for a minute?
	I want to get an update on this.
	What could put deep claw marks in a 94 Lexus?
	No kitty cat big or little that I know about.
	I'm serious about this.
	Just cleared.
	CBS story.
	I heard the actuality myself.
	So I'm telling you, I'm telling you, this really is going on.
	And I want to thank James at KFAB, our McGungus affiliate in Omaha, for calling this to my attention.
	So please, the East of our Iraqis line, South Florida only, at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033 South Florida Only!
	Anyway.
	With so many listeners out there, it's getting very hard to restrict lines, but I still am compelled to try.
	South Florida only.
	1-800-825-5033.
	You might want to confirm for me that I've got the details of this story roughly correct.
	Yikes.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	How you doing, Bill?
	I have something else for you to think about.
	I have a real feeling that this thing is going to get stuck under the rug.
	Because I have a strange feeling, you know, everybody is screaming Israel, Afghanistan, or Iranians.
	Well, we know that the Afghans had a lot of stingers, sir.
	Many, many, many unaccounted for.
	So many, the CIA offered to buy them back at about a quarter million dollars apiece.
	Okay, but my thing is, what if this was done by an alt-right wing cell of our own military?
	I mean, it's the worst possible scenario, and one that I don't even want to think about right now.
	But I did ask last night, sir.
	It's a sad thing that you've got to ask that in America today.
	I asked.
	And I will again.
	Is it more likely foreign or domestic?
	And I hope to hell it's foreign.
	Because I have a brother that's in the military, and he says, you know, Based in the military, he can make you sneak out of anything.
	And if you look at Fort Bragg or the, uh, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's very racist down there.
	And I have a feeling of it.
	What is, what, what, why would a racist?
	No, I mean, not, or not, not so much racist, but also right-wing cells, uh, you know, groups that, uh, in, in, in some of these groups are that, uh, People happen to be in the military.
	Yeah, all I can say is if that's true, if that speculation turns out to be true, then God help us.
	I really mean it, God help us.
	If it's turned out that we are going to blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma, we're going to blow up airplanes and blow innocent people out of the sky because we're dissatisfied with the processes of our own federal government, then just God help us, we're done.
	Stick a fork in us, we're done.
	You know, we've got this thing called the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and all that, and if people have given up on it, and they have come to embrace the Maoism, that the only power worth a damn flows from the end of a barrel of a gun, or a stinger missile, if that's what America has become, then we don't have America anymore.
	We have quickened.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are you doing?
	I'm doing.
	I'm calling from South Florida.
	Yes, sir.
	What do you want to know about?
	Well, you know what I want to know about.
	I have this story.
	We've got a story that some creature, where are you actually?
	Miami.
	Miami.
	We've got a story, I don't know exactly where, a South Florida town is all it says, they won't define it, that there's some creature killing people's pets But, more interestingly, leaving deep claw marks in the 94 Lexus car!
	Now, what does that?
	I haven't heard anything about that.
	Oh, well, that's why I asked you to get calls.
	I, uh... Look, I appreciate your call, sir.
	Thank you.
	From Miami.
	And so I appreciate your call, but I'm looking for somebody that has heard and can confirm the rough details of the story I just gave.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	AR.
	Yes.
	It's a bear.
	It's a bear?
	Yeah.
	Where are you?
	Well, I'm in Cleveland, but I used to live in Florida for 12 years.
	Well, how would you know it's a bear then, sir, if you're in Cleveland?
	Because in the town I used to live in, almost twice a year we'd have black bears in town.
	Alright, well thanks for the call, but I'm holding that line open for Florida.
	Now, you may know it's a bear from Cleveland, but I don't think they made that determination.
	So, Florida, only, only Florida, please.
	1-800-825-5033.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Hello, are you in Florida?
	Uh, no.
	Okay, well thank you then for the call.
	We're holding that line open for Florida.
	I just like, I get no cooperation.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Are you in Florida?
	Yes, I am.
	Okay, where are you?
	Fort Lauderdale.
	Fort Lauderdale.
	That's southern Florida, all right.
	Well, have you heard this story yet?
	Turn your radio off, dear.
	It's off.
	Okay, have you heard this story yet?
	Yeah, it's in Parkland, Florida.
	In Parkland?
	Yes.
	Where is Parkland?
	It's just north of Fort Lauderdale.
	So it's near you?
	Uh-huh.
	Have they identified what creature it is yet?
	Yeah, the thing that you mentioned.
	I can't pronounce it.
	The Chapa, whatever it is.
	Chupacabra?
	Chupacabra, that's what they're... Now, I didn't say that.
	You said that.
	Yeah, well, I said I couldn't pronounce it, you know, at the time.
	But, but, but you're saying that the news has said the name Chupacabra?
	Yeah.
	Oh my.
	And then she takes that dog out in the car.
	Because she's afraid to walk in that neighborhood.
	I don't know what the hell would put deep scratch, or even could put deep scratch marks, uh, in a 94 Lexus, for heaven's sakes.
	Well, they showed part of the bumper, and it was, like, torn apart.
	So you've actually seen it?
	It was on TV, yeah.
	Wow!
	Yeah, they showed, like, uh, well, like, little teeth marks and scratches and dents in the front fender.
	Wow!
	As well as... Um, I take it you're not taking any late-night walks right now?
	Well, no.
	I don't think so.
	Well, it's up in Parkland.
	It's away from me, so I'm not too worried about it.
	Yeah, but you know what they've said about the Chupacabra.
	You might not want to know this.
	What's that?
	It moves at somewhere between 60 and 70 miles an hour.
	I guess I'll be taking my dog out.
	All right, thank you very much for the call.
	Parkland.
	All right, Parkland, Florida.
	Well, let's see.
	At 60 to 70, how long would it take to get from Fort Lauderdale to Parkland?
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes, I'd like to make a comment on the downing.
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Galveston.
	Galveston, Texas.
	All right.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	In Galveston.
	I got that.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	Could it have been a submarine?
	Yes.
	Do you think?
	Could that be possible?
	Do I think it was?
	No.
	Could it have been?
	Yes.
	Well, that's what I was thinking.
	Maybe it could have been a submarine.
	All right.
	Well, look, at this point, it could have been anything.
	But I think that they think that it was a stinger.
	That's why they're swarming over the whole place right now.
	There also, by the way, was a report that there were two men who rented a boat that same night flight 800 went down and uh... surprise surprise the boat was returned but the two men didn't even bother to retain uh... to get their sixty six dollar deposit back if they wouldn't have gone back to get their deposit I sure would, wouldn't you?
	if you'd rented a boat, wouldn't you go back to uh... to get uh... your deposit back?
	You bet I would.
	Anyway, we'll be right back.
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	First of all, I want to just thank you for bringing everyone out here to Cornucopia.
	Just phenomenal knowledge.
	I don't know of anyone else that I've ever listened to on radio that just fills my brain and stimulates me.
	But, you know, I was listening to the show and I thought to myself,
	Do you think, George, that common citizens such as you or I really have any hope towards the future of any privacy or
	anything else?
	I think we do.
	I think eventually so many people will see the light.
	See what you see.
	See what I see.
	That eventually they're going to say enough is enough.
	And I think that we do have a future.
	And we're going to win in the long run.
	It's going to be bumpy along the way.
	It's not going to be easy.
	But we will get there.
	That's my take.
	And you know what?
	As long as I can continue on the airwaves and tell people this, I shall.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	Okay, back to it.
	We go west to the Rockies.
	Okay, back to it. We go west of the Rockies. You're on the air. Hi.
	Hi, R. Hello.
	Could you explain what the chupacabra is?
	Could you clarify that?
	I keep hearing it.
	I'm in Honolulu, Hawaii.
	Yes.
	And my name is Lisa, and I just don't know what this thing is.
	We're not altogether sure, Lisa.
	It's a creature that they believe they first detected on the island of Puerto Rico.
	And then they began to get reports of its presence in South America, Central America, Mexico particularly, and now even here in the continental United States.
	Now, Hawaii doesn't even have snakes.
	If we manage to get a chupacabra, maybe we'll send one over to you.
	Please don't!
	You keep saying it moved at like 70 miles per hour.
	I feel like a Tasmanian devil.
	That's right.
	That's what the legend says.
	Now, do I really know There's a chupacabra?
	No, I don't.
	There are thousands of animals, though, Lisa, that have been found dead, puncture marks in their neck, all the blood drained from their bodies.
	There are eyewitnesses in Mexico.
	It is a big story in Mexico.
	People can laugh and chuckle all they want.
	Now we've got this thing going, whatever it is, down in South Florida.
	So... Could it be linked to vampires?
	Well, obviously it's vampire-like.
	Anything that sucks the blood from the... What are you laughing about?
	You're over there in the office.
	It's just craziness.
	I'm just in Kokomo.
	Kokomo, huh?
	All right, dear.
	Well, stay there.
	I will, babe.
	You know it.
	All right.
	See you later.
	You are listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23, 1996.
	Thank you for watching.
	Premier Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23rd, 1996.
	Well, you're probably not going to believe this, but I've got a lot of faxes here.
	They are looking for a chupacabra in Florida.
	Listen to this.
	Art, I just called my friend Chrissy in Lantana, Florida.
	Her husband is a sheriff in Broward County.
	They ARE looking for a chupa.
	She's trying to call you now.
	As a matter of fact, Chrissy's on her way to her friend's house now, who has a devil dialer to try to get through.
	So, once again, I'm going to leave the line open for Florida.
	Holy mackerel!
	Maybe this will turn out to be something else, but they apparently are actually looking for a chupacabra in Florida.
	So I'm holding my line open for Florida again.
	The number In Southern Florida, 1-800-825-5033.
	If you want to know what a Chupacabra might look like, go to my webpage.
	We've got Chupi up there.
	Now, there are two alleged Chupacabra pictures.
	I consider only one of them to be possibly a Chupacabra.
	You take a look, decide for yourself.
	It's the one with the fangs.
	Hard to miss.
	It is the ugliest looking thing you've ever seen.
	Somebody downloaded that photograph, put it up in a 7-Eleven.
	Some guy by half tank came in, took a look at it.
	The guy had marked it as a lost dog, and the guy did a double take and looked at the picture again and said, well, did that dog run away from you or did you run away from him?
	It is one ugly sucker.
	But I'm serious about what's going on down in Florida.
	I'm serious.
	East of the Rockies on our Florida line, you're on the air.
	Hello, Art.
	Hello, sir.
	Where are you?
	Fort Myers.
	Yes, sir.
	On our 6 o'clock news tonight, they were showing some pool enclosures, the aluminum pipes with screens.
	Right.
	They were kind of knocked over.
	It's like something heavy got on top of them.
	And they were saying something's been trying to get in at dogs and stuff and houses this way.
	Into houses?
	Yeah.
	Well, I just can't imagine what could scratch through a Lexus.
	Well, we were talking about it might be a Panther, but uh, when I first heard the thing, I was thinking that chupacabra thing too.
	I wouldn't think that a Panther would go after a Lexus.
	Well, it might be something that's like, you know, saw that emblem on the side.
	How about, how about you?
	You going to take any late night walks out there?
	Well, no.
	I don't blame you a bit.
	You've got to watch out for the turtles, too, this time of year.
	Coming ashore.
	No, what turtle?
	You mean big monster turtles or something?
	No, the ones laying their eggs.
	Oh, I see.
	Yeah.
	Well, listen, keep us informed, will you?
	Okay.
	They were saying it might even be a small bear, but who knows?
	Well, a guy in Cleveland said it might be a bear.
	Yeah.
	That might be a bear, who knows?
	Because bears will climb up on top of things and then shake them.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's true.
	And we've got them down here that get hit every once in a while on Alligator Alley.
	Yep.
	Alright, well maybe, but they are talking about chupacabra, huh?
	Right.
	That's what it sounded like when they first started talking about it, because they said raccoons and dogs were turning up dead and missing.
	Thank you.
	Sure.
	See you later.
	Yikes!
	This is from Paul in Odessa, Texas, listening to KRIL there.
	Dear Art, not only did they get the wrong airliner, but they know in their hearts that we will indeed blow the hell out of whomever is responsible despite the Clinton administration.
	You know, quote, I hit the button by accident, sir.
	Sorry.
	Blew it off the map.
	I won't do it again, sir.
	Hmm.
	So, uh...
	A lot of people think they got the wrong airplane.
	They're meant to get an Israeli plane.
	On my Florida line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you?
	Fort Lauderdale.
	Fort Lauderdale.
	Turn your radio off for us.
	Okay, one second.
	If you would.
	Fort Lauderdale.
	Chupacabra territory, huh?
	Okay, it's off.
	All right, thank you.
	I saw the news tonight, and what they said it was, is a cat.
	A cat?
	Yeah, it was chasing a cat, or whatever.
	Trying to get to a cat, and the cat went underneath the car, and up into underneath the engine area.
	Right, and so whatever it was... Was trying to get at the cat.
	Yeah, but of course I haven't seen the photographs, the pictures of what was done to the Lexus.
	You have.
	What does it look like?
	Just like some scratch marks.
	It doesn't look all that deep.
	And then there was a piece that came off.
	A piece that came off the Lexus?
	Yeah.
	Part of the fender or something or the bumper.
	Really?
	Yeah, with bite marks on it or whatever.
	Bite marks?
	Yeah.
	But, you know, the scratches were deep in the metal.
	Yeah.
	But they didn't penetrate the metal.
	They didn't go through.
	I mean, it's not, you know, I think they overstated it a little bit.
	Well, maybe that's comforting, maybe not.
	Maybe we could get deep into metal I don't want to meet up with.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	So, are people taking extra precaution down there right now, or?
	Well, over there in that area, they are.
	Man, I sure would.
	I'd be inside with a good double-barreled something.
	Yeah, it makes you wonder.
	It figures in this day and age, doesn't it?
	I'll tell you, we live in strange times.
	Yeah, I think that the trooper, whatever you call it, That's a little far-fetched.
	Uh, well... I mean, there's got to be something kind of logical.
	Explanation for what otherwise seems illogical.
	But what if it is the Chupa?
	Well, don't let the mosquitoes bite, sir.
	Okay, have a good night.
	Yeah, take care.
	Florida, again.
	Hmm.
	If it's not one thing, it's another.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, how are you doing?
	Well, alright.
	Hey, your Chupacabra is on your webpage.
	I had a question.
	Yes.
	Doesn't that, a little bit to you, look like a plastic mask, maybe?
	Well, people have said that.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	It could be, it couldn't be.
	The only thing I've really, the criticism I've heard of it is, That anybody who would get that close to whatever the hell that was would have to be out of their mind.
	Yeah, they might.
	Because that is a close-up photo.
	Yeah, it sure is.
	So I don't know.
	Don't ask me.
	I didn't take the picture.
	Let me go further than that.
	I wouldn't have taken that picture.
	Would you?
	Uh, no.
	After hearing about the Lexus and so forth?
	The Lexus?
	Oh, you haven't been hearing about the Lexus car?
	Oh, that last call?
	Well, several of the last calls from southern Florida.
	Yeah, there's something down there.
	Something big down there.
	Oh.
	Love your show.
	Thank you for the call.
	Florida is one of the places that's had a little bit of trouble with this thing before.
	Alexis, huh?
	I wonder how that's going to come out in the insurance report.
	On my Florida line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Where are you?
	Davie, Florida.
	Where?
	Davie.
	I know everybody says where.
	We're west of Fort Lauderdale.
	West of Fort Lauderdale.
	Sort of out in the... I'm right off Route 84.
	State Road 84, which goes north and south.
	Not north and south.
	East and west of Florida.
	East and west.
	All right.
	And we're about five miles west of the Everglades.
	Five miles east, excuse me.
	Well, so then you'd probably be right in the area where this sucker'd hang out.
	Yeah, what happened, I had this house built 20 years ago, and this was about it.
	They weren't going to go much further towards the Everglades, but, you know, people get land hungry and money hungry, and they've built almost up to the edge of the Everglades now.
	Right.
	And from time to time you'll hear stories like this, First of all because some of those towns that are further west than mine allow you to keep exotic animals.
	So we'll hear of huge pythons taking little dogs.
	One fellow had a coyote and he got into a lot of trouble for that.
	But people seem to have an affinity for Collecting strange pets and then not really watching how they keep them.
	But there have been a number of terrible accidents over the years.
	A child was taken by a crocodile this past year right out of a canal because people will get small crocodiles as a pet.
	And when they get too big, they throw them in the canals.
	Well, but that's the natural... Well, not the canals.
	That's it.
	They're not supposed to be in there.
	Canals, no.
	Because this area is completely lined by canals.
	But I've never heard of a crocodile taken on a Lexus.
	No, what I'm saying is that while it's a little bit of a wild story, there have been small pets taken.
	Whether the connection is to the fact that the animals have been attacked and the car has been attacked, nobody's quite sure at this point.
	Yikes!
	Well, I take it that you're not in for a late night, early morning Well, no, because, you know, you can't really trust some of the human animals that are walking around either.
	Well, isn't that a shame?
	That's kind of sad, but it's true.
	It is true.
	But no, no, I made it a habit.
	I used to be a great person for going out at night.
	I've made it a habit just to lock the door and stay in after dinner.
	But it's a little bit of a frightening story.
	Parents apparently are very worried about the small children.
	Well, sure.
	Which they should be.
	But no doubt, within a day or so, they'll find out what it is, because they usually do.
	And if it's somebody who has let a pet, a strange pet out, they're going to be in a lot of trouble.
	Well, that's a fact.
	I appreciate your call.
	Thank you.
	And if it's somebody who has adopted a baby chupacabra and allowed this sucker to grow up, and then because of the disagreeable nature of the chupacabra's personality, Let it loose.
	They're going to be in a lot of trouble.
	There's no question about it.
	A lot of trouble.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Bart?
	Yes?
	I've got some information about that downing.
	Okay, where are you?
	I'd rather not say.
	I'd rather not give a name, either.
	I'm an ex-Marine, and I was in a helicopter squadron.
	Once every year, for two weeks, you'll have a deployment to Long Island.
	Right.
	Okay, for purposes of MUSOC training?
	Well, we know there were live fire exercises going on.
	Well, let me just say this.
	Anybody who's from Long Island will tell you that there's normally a large amount of black helicopters flying around the eastern tip.
	Okay.
	Most likely being Delta Force.
	Okay.
	They'd have a squadron of about 24 Marine aircraft there flying around.
	Everybody without squadron insignia or rank Or ID.
	When you issue the FBI card, in case there be an accident, or in case you get picked up by the police, you just hand that card.
	You say nothing else.
	Also, the Grumman Test Facility out there, that was there, before they sold, you had Harrier tests in the 70s, with Harrier jets flying over roads, and people, of course, didn't know what a Harrier was, and thought they were UFOs.
	Then you had U.S.S.
	Guam prior to the... Now, these are a lot of facts.
	What do you... These are a lot of facts.
	So what are you saying?
	That we shot down our own... It's not beyond the possibility that there was some kind of exercise up in that area.
	That ended up firing a missile accidentally?
	Going astray, because I don't believe that U.S.S.
	Guam incident was ever reported where there was an LPD, and in between the LPD and our ship, the Guam, There was a drone ship.
	All right, sir.
	I appreciate all the good black helicopter inside info, but the fact of the matter is, I don't believe for one second that our own military, black helicopters or whatever, shot down this airplane.
	Had they done so, I believe they would have owned up to it, one.
	Two, even if they hadn't, the missile would have... I mean, they watch these things very, very carefully.
	And, uh, the missile would be reported as having been fired.
	Um, and they keep very... You know, I was in the Air Force, and that doesn't mean I know everything about the Air Force, but I know they keep track of these things very carefully, and we should know about that by now.
	In times we're in, folks.
	You are listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Yes, Art.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	Uh, this is Ron.
	I'm in Jacksonville, North Carolina.
	Yes.
	Hi, Ron.
	How are you doing?
	Pretty good.
	Okay.
	Two things on this downing of the plane.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	First thing, I'm a security officer, so I don't get to listen to you every night.
	I don't want to be redundant on something, but last Wednesday's USA Today, on page three, there's a small paragraph on there that said, at JFK, Tuesday morning, they received a bomb threat Uh, on a plane that was bound for Moscow.
	Oh.
	Okay, it got all of a paragraph.
	Nothing much.
	Uh, so, and I haven't heard anybody bring anything else up about this.
	Less than 24 hours later, a plane blows up coming out of JFK.
	Yep.
	Okay, on the military angle.
	Uh, I'm also an ex-Marine, but not quite as paranoid, I think, or self-delusioned as the last one that called.
	You know, the black, black helicopter guy.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Uh, the thing with this is, uh, anybody who's spent any time in the military knows that sometimes word does not get disseminated quickly.
	Um, if the plane was delayed for an hour, now, uh, maybe they didn't get that word.
	Maybe somebody mistook it as a drone possibility, and they did fire it off.
	If the Pentagon, or at least the Department of the Navy, is going to try to cover up a little butt pinching at, uh, Tailhook, Why are they going to come out immediately and say, hey, yeah, we screwed up and shot down a plane load of good unit?
	Maybe not immediately, but by now.
	Maybe so.
	Maybe they're trying to figure out how they're going to do it.
	Now, frankly, frankly, I kind of liked the lady who called before 1 a.m.
	Pacific Time and said, look, what if, and I really think this is a good what if, what if somebody did issue a threat ahead of time and said what is about to occur could next occur to Air Force One?
	Which is also a 747.
	Right.
	Now, would they make public such a threat?
	I think the answer to that is not only no, but hell no.
	Right.
	But along those same lines, as far as Mr. Clinton being nervous, or looking haggard, or however she put it, I don't want to misquote her, maybe someone, General Shelley Cachevilli or someone else, came to him and told him, hey, we accidentally knocked down our own guy.
	We accidentally knocked some of our own people out of the air.
	That could explain his demeanor.
	All right, my friend.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate your call.
	I've got something I want you guys to hear.
	This is a rare song.
	At least I don't remember it.
	Maybe it will serve for those who believe that when we die, we don't die.
	We come back.
	I don't know.
	That we come back.
	Do you think we come back?
	Anyway, see if you remember this as we head toward the top of the hour.
	It always sent a chill down my spine.
	Listen to the words.
	I was a highwayman.
	Along the coach roads I did ride.
	With sword and pistol by my side.
	Many a young maid lost her marbles to my trade.
	Many a soldier shed his life's blood on my blade.
	The masters hung me in the spring of 49.
	But I am still alive.
	I was a sailor.
	I was born upon the tide, with a sea I did abide.
	I sailed a schooner around the whole of New Mexico.
	I went along to curl the mainsail in a float.
	And when the yards broke off, they said that I got killed.
	But I'm living still.
	I was a dam builder, across the river deep and wide.
	We're steel and water didn't collide.
	A place called Porter on the wild Colorado.
	I slipped and fell into the wet concrete below.
	They buried me in that great ship that knows no sound.
	But I'm still around.
	I'll always be around, around, around, around, around.
	I fly a starship across the universe divine, and when I reach I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
	Perhaps I may become a highwayman again Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
	But I will remain And I'll be back again and again and again and again and
	again and again I don't know, maybe I'll be back again
	I don't know, maybe I'll be back again and again and again and again and again and again and again
	Maybe comfort for those who have lost somebody.
	Maybe not.
	This is Premier Networks.
	That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
	on this somewhere in time.
	I'm going to be doing a lot of research on this.
	.
	you I can hear it, you're concerned about my happiness.
	But all that thought you've given me is conscious, I guess.
	If I was walking in your shoes, I wouldn't worry none.
	While you and your friends are worried about me, I'm feeling lots of fun.
	Counting flowers on the wall, that don't bother me at all.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23, 1996.
	And, uh... No, I don't know why I like this song.
	No, I just do.
	Might have something to do with Motel 6 in Amarillo.
	I don't know.
	I might have something to do with Motel 6 in Amarillo, I don't know. Dear Art, I think that the whole premise of the
	crash investigation is out of a cover-up that's The fumblings with the information.
	Conflicting reports.
	And other glitches are one agency trying to keep the lid on the true story.
	I think the government is reluctant to report its own people who are to blame for the crash of Flight 800, what do you think, Lew in Hayward, California?
	I think I'd rather listen to Statler Brothers.
	God, I hope that's not true, but do I rule it out?
	No.
	This day and age, I don't rule anything out.
	I sit around speculating.
	But you know, they're the reason this is going on.
	the denial rule anything out rounds speculate
	their reasons there the reason this is going on uh... i have never seen such a
	botched bunch of missed information
	issued from uh... irresponsible in incompetent
	uh... people in my whole life uh...
	There should be some direction.
	The way the information flow is going tells me that nobody is directing.
	There is no central direction to the effort.
	At the very least, that indicates incompetence.
	There's something horribly, tragically wrong with the way this is being handled.
	Period.
	No matter how it turns out, I'm beginning to get to that point.
	You know, the word incompetence doesn't spring easily to my mind.
	Mr. Bugliosi used it earlier when referring to the defense team.
	I'm beginning to use it now referring to our team in Washington, such as it is.
	Incompetency really is the word that begins to spring to mind.
	At the very least, there should be a central point of information uh... that uh... would be reliable but it's not there.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, hi.
	Hi.
	This is Sean from Spokane, Washington.
	Okay, Sean, get into that phone and speak up.
	Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
	That's all right.
	I'm on a cordless phone.
	Yeah, um, I just basically wanted Art to indulge me on his knowledge on, um, like, time travel.
	Okay, Art can do that.
	Okay.
	That'd be great.
	Well, um, Basically, I just wanted to know if you have any knowledge of any plans or any sort of ideas.
	You thought you were talking to a call screener, didn't you?
	I'm sorry?
	Pardon me?
	You thought you were talking to a call screener, didn't you?
	Actually, yeah.
	I'm sorry.
	We don't screen calls.
	Oh, wow.
	I did not know that.
	That's the first time I've talked to you.
	Actually, I've listened to your show before.
	No, you're on the air.
	I mean, everybody goes directly on the air.
	If I answer the phone, that's it, baby.
	You're on.
	Right on.
	So, time travel.
	I admire that.
	Well, I mean, it is what it is, sir.
	Anyway, what about time travel?
	I just basically want to know if you've actually heard anything of actually any updates or any government plans.
	I'm just kind of curious.
	Well, I would like to answer, but as a 99th degree mason.
	That's a myth.
	What's a myth?
	A 99th degree mason is a myth?
	No, I was like, I'm sorry, I misunderstood you, sir.
	No, no, no, I'm saying that as a 99th degree mason, a comment on time travel is not possible.
	It's not possible?
	For me, I mean.
	If you want to say something, that's fine.
	Well, everything's possible.
	There's nothing you can rule out.
	As far as, I mean, especially, I mean, as you're showing me, there's nothing you can actually rule out.
	I don't rule anything out, sir, but do I, to answer your question, no, I don't.
	I'm still looking for anybody with a time machine.
	When we get one.
	But you've actually never heard anything, um, Farmer's Lake?
	Just, I mean, Farmer's... Like what?
	Pardon me?
	Like what?
	Just, I mean, any kind of, like, have you heard of anybody actually making an attempt at it?
	I mean... Alright, fine.
	You've pulled it out of me.
	Yeah, sure.
	A friend of mine went back to 1956 about four weeks ago.
	How did you find out?
	Um, I'm just curious.
	Alright.
	Well, I gotta run, sir.
	Thanks for the call.
	East of the Rockies.
	He's doing well, too.
	You're on the air.
	Hello, Mr. Bell.
	Hello.
	I've been listening to you very carefully for a long time.
	I picked out that you seem to favor a rather Nietzschean philosophy, survival of the fittest.
	I think that's the same thing that the Germans... I wouldn't say that I favor that philosophy.
	I would say That that philosophy is true.
	That it is a basic truth.
	You see people getting killed in gas chambers as those people were weak.
	No, I don't.
	You said that.
	No, I said that the weak get stomped on.
	Look at Tiananmen Square.
	Look in Bosnia.
	Look in Bosnia, dear.
	Look anywhere you want to look where people don't have the ability to protect themselves.
	The lesson is true again and again and again.
	Can you deny it?
	You say that that's... Ma'am, stop!
	Before you go on, can you deny that's a truth?
	I'm saying that the philosophy of survival of the fittest is part of... is the problem.
	And that isn't strength to fight and kill people so that I think you're at the extreme.
	I'm in the middle.
	I'm in favor of a good, strong defense.
	Wait, you're not in favor of that?
	yourself if you know that it goes to the market goes over to the other extreme to
	the other side i think you're at the extreme i'm in the middle i i am i'm in
	favor of a good strong defense a good strong deep-fried prevent weight you're
	not in favor of that you know i am in favor of yes i dammit don't tell me what i am and what i'm not i'll tell
	you that i've tried I'll tell you.
	I'll tell you what I'm in favor of.
	And don't put words in my mouth.
	You want to call me up and tell me what you're in favor of?
	Baby, go ahead and do it.
	I'll listen.
	But don't tell me what I'm in favor of.
	I'm trying to define a problem.
	And the problem is a military, warlike attitude are the problem.
	And it isn't just a defense.
	You're just using that word as a defense to make it sound acceptable.
	Stop telling me what I think.
	You don't know what the hell I think.
	I've thought about what you think.
	I've listened to what you think.
	You're a mind reader, huh?
	I would like to say something about what I think about.
	You say anything you want about what you think.
	Don't put words in my mouth.
	Don't you want to grow in knowledge and understanding of yourself?
	That's only your position, because you think your position is right.
	Therefore, my position hasn't grown.
	I've been around long enough to see people who are unprotected get run over by tanks, gassed, stomped on, and killed in every horrible imaginable... Unprotected?
	You said people that are weak.
	That's right.
	It's not weak not to try to gas and stomp on other people.
	Where do you live?
	Do you live in a home?
	Do you live in an apartment?
	Let me just talk about this one point.
	Talk about, look, you give me any opinion you want, it's your opinion.
	You put words in my mouth one more time and you're out of here.
	I've just repeated what you said.
	You called it a weakness.
	Okay?
	That's right, yes.
	Now let me just try to say something about that kind of attitude.
	Don't try to tell me that that attitude translates to or is a cover for a warlike attitude.
	It is, if you believe in buying weapons instead of building schools.
	I didn't say I believed in buying weapons.
	I said I believed in a good defense.
	And people that buy weapons and put all their stake in building weapons, if there's no war, they'll make war.
	Goodbye.
	You know, I'm just not going to put up with that.
	If you want to call me and have an intelligent conversation with me, which he could have Uh, with regard to the difference in philosophy between, uh, defense dollars, uh, uh, priorities, uh, fine.
	We'll do that.
	But don't you dare call up and tell me that my being in favor of a good defense translates to, um, I want to have a war, and I want to spend all my money on weapons because you're full of crap.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	I can't believe I made it.
	I'm calling from Clovis, California.
	Well, glad to have you.
	You sound a lot different on the phone.
	Everybody says that.
	I'm calling from California, but I have lots of relatives in Florida.
	Yes.
	And that creature is probably, I'm 95% sure that it's a Florida Black Panther.
	They're about 50 to 75 pounds.
	They're black, and they're like a house cat on steroids.
	A house cat on steroids?
	Well, I've never heard that expression before, but I can picture that, since I have a wild feral cat that I'm taming right now, who shredded me at one point, and it was like he was on steroids.
	So, yes, I can picture that, but what I can't picture is it tearing up a Lexus.
	He was probably very hungry and trying to get one of those pets that he was trying to eat that was hiding underneath the car.
	And trying to get to it, he probably scratched it.
	That would be my guess.
	Good deep scratches.
	That's a lot of power.
	I mean, a hungry animal would probably do just about anything to get its food.
	Not that I'm an environmentalist or anything, but there are a lot of people moving down in the Everglades area, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of those.
	Well, alright, thank you.
	Yes, we can imagine that moving in on the Everglades, moving in on the rainforest, moving in on areas where we've not previously been, laying of concrete, downing of trees, clearing of forests, that eventually we're going to begin to meet up with things that aren't going to be real happy about that.
	So yeah, sure, I suppose it could turn out to be something like that.
	or of course the chupacabra.
	Coast to coast AM sure sounds great in the middle of the night.
	But you know, you don't have to be nocturnal to enjoy this amazing show.
	The Coast Insider is your key to a normal life.
	For 15 cents a day, you can wake up refreshed knowing that last night's show is waiting for you with podcasting.
	As a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Noory and special guests.
	The Coast Insiders Club is a must-have feature for all Coast to Coast AM listeners.
	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up today.
	Get a new view of the world with Coast to Coast AM.
	First of all, I want to just thank you for bringing everyone out here to Cornucopia.
	Just phenomenal knowledge.
	I don't know of anyone else that I've ever listened to on radio that just fills my brain and stimulates me.
	You know, I was listening to the show and I thought to myself, Do you think George, the common citizen such as you or I, really has any hope towards the future of any privacy or anything else?
	I think we do.
	I think eventually so many people will see the light, see what you see, see what I see, that eventually they're going to say enough is enough.
	And I think that we do have a future and we're going to win in the long run.
	It's going to be bumpy along the way.
	It's not going to be easy, but we will get there.
	That's my take, and you know what?
	As long as I can continue on the airwaves and tell people this, I shall.
	Somewhere in time, with Art Bell, continues, courtesy of Premier Networks.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	Yes.
	It's Steve and Felix.
	How you doing?
	Okay, Steve.
	Listen, I moved.
	I've got an air conditioner.
	I can think, you know?
	I've got my own private entrance.
	I'm sure the audience in America is interested.
	You mean, I'm sure they are, Steve.
	It was actually too hot for you to think before?
	No, I really, it was a terrible setup.
	I had a lot of Noisy, um, drug addict neighbors always doing their business when you were on.
	I see.
	Anyway, what's on your mind?
	Okay, what's on my mind?
	I'll tell you what's on my mind.
	That, that lady that just called before the first one, she, she was a tad irritating.
	I've gone out with women like that and, uh, they do put words in your mouth.
	You're not a warlike, uh, we, you, we have to, uh, let me get to the airplane.
	That's what I'm thinking of that was blowing up.
	Okay.
	So I try to sound track here.
	Okay.
	I sure will.
	My first, uh, Thought on that.
	I heard about it later.
	I usually get it, but I just moved, you know.
	And I heard about it, and believe it or not, the missile, I honestly thought of Independence Day.
	Alright, well, that's where we'll hold it.
	It wasn't Independence Day, Steve.
	Turn the air conditioner down some more.
	You know, as I get older, I'm fairly even-tempered.
	I try to be most of the time.
	But the one thing that can really get to me is people telling me what I'm saying.
	I refuse to put up with that.
	I refuse to put up with that.
	I will speak for myself.
	You callers, you speak for yourselves.
	And we can have fights, we can have discussions, we can do whatever you want.
	But I will not allow people to put words that I did not say into my mouth.
	Period.
	That's all there is to it.
	And I will not allow that woman or any other To translate for me, my meaning when I say that the strong survive and the weak inevitably are trampled upon, I will not allow her to twist that into a meaning of, I am, I want a war.
	I'm a warmonger.
	I want to build weapons and go kill people.
	I will not allow it to be translated to that.
	If you want to have a discussion about a fine, if you want to try to put words in my mouth, You're going to have yourself a real tangle, you know, and you're not going to be on the air very long, because I've got control of the buttons.
	So there you are.
	First time caller in line, you're on the air.
	Steve from Selma, California.
	Yes, sir.
	Listening to you on KMJ.
	I wanted to tell you Friday's show with Courtney Brown, it really has strong influence around here because I went Saturday morning to buy the book and it was sold out everywhere.
	So I had to order it.
	But I'm looking forward to getting that book.
	I wanted to know if after I get off of here sometime tonight if you could give me the number for ordering past shows.
	Okay.
	And one last thing.
	I was wondering if there was a station around here that I could listen to you before 1 a.m.
	because that's the earliest we get you.
	Well, I'll tell you what I would suggest, and I rarely suggest this, but very politely, we don't need another station there.
	We have Cam J. Give Cam J. a call and ask them if they would not consider carrying the show at an earlier hour.
	I can tell you the surveys, the radio surveys, are coming out, and we're coming up number one everywhere.
	Los Angeles, San Diego, the early big cities are coming in now.
	uh... dreamland uh... number one in san francisco and on and on and on and on it'll come out same in portland seattle et cetera et cetera et cetera so the ratings are there and i suspect they're there for kmj as well and so if the ratings are there and you and other people in fresno call kmj and request an earlier start for the show because we do begin at eleven uh... my guess is that kmj would favorably consider such a thing so be polite I had a long time to speak.
	Women like that seem to take for granted that they're able to call a show like yours and voice an opinion like hers because we've kept the defense strong over the years.
	We're not making the rules, we're playing by them that were already established when we got here.
	Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
	Boy, you better believe it.
	And to have that translated into warmongering really ticks me off.
	And I just want to have those kind of words.
	You know, I'll have a discussion or even a debate about it, but I'll not allow anybody to put those kind of words in my mouth.
	I'll tell you, Art, it just blows my mind.
	Makes me want to call for the phone and, you know, wrap her upside the head.
	But I can see where you get angry over it, because she obviously isn't listening.
	And just look around.
	This is not a pretty place in the world.
	It's pretty violent and pretty aggressive out there.
	It's by nature.
	That's what we are.
	That is the reality.
	You've got to defend yourself if you want to stay.
	You betcha.
	Thank you.
	And the reason that that lady and others are free enough to have their First Amendment privileges to call talk shows and blah blah blah is because we are strong.
	We have not fought wars on our shore because we are strong.
	We remain free today to have all these wonderful arguments and disagreements because we are strong.
	This is a basic fact of life.
	It's not even debatable as far as I'm concerned, and to twist that into the wish for war or warmongering is crazy.
	However, to put those words in my mouth will get you, well, you heard what happened to her.
	My goodness, I don't know what has happened to the time.
	This whole night has just flat flown by.
	I want to remind everybody that this Friday night, Saturday morning, what is today anyway?
	It's already Wednesday, isn't it?
	Friday night, Saturday morning, Richard Hoagland is going to be here, and for those of you who have never heard Richard Hoagland, man, are you ever in for a treat after Graham Hancock and all the rest of the people we've had on?
	Hoagland is going to come roaring back, after a lot of what he's said has been absolutely substantiated.
	We will be right back.
	You are listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM, from July 23rd, 1996.
	I just remember when we kissed, you got the teeth of the hive on you.
	The high ground upon you Is dirty, no matter
	Get it on, let's go, get it on Get it on, let's go, get it on
	When you feel nothing called You gotta hug Captain Toheno
	Make it like a car, oh yeah When you're hunting
	Get it on, let's go, get it on Get it on, let's go, get it on
	Get it on, let's go, get it on Get it on, let's go, get it on
	Get it on, let's go, get it on Somewhere in time with Art Bell continues courtesy
	Good morning, everybody!
	I've been into the vocals lately, haven't I?
	All of the things are bad Good morning everybody
	Give in to time and show me some of that good I've got a chupacabra patch here
	You're really gonna love this.
	I love you, feel you, wrap myself around you I want to squeeze you, please you, I just can't get enough
	And if you were real strong, I'd let it go I'm so excited, I just can't hide it
	You know, if you think of this...
	I'm about to lose control when I'm in love If you think of this song from the point of view of the chupacabra...
	And I just can't hide it And you listen to the words, you'll get a serious chuckle out of it all.
	Oh well.
	Listen to this.
	Art, whenever you discuss a little critter or describe it, To a new listener, you tend to be fixated on the tooth marks the creature leaves on its customers.
	Is it possible that teeth work actually like a barb on a fish hook?
	The extra set of punctures on the inside of a wound serve as an anchor, so the creature can't be shook loose by its live and conscious victim.
	Now hold on, it gets better.
	Have you ever seen how a moray eel holds on to its lucky prey, or maybe a pit bull?
	Piano break.
	Well, not yet.
	The jaw locks in a way that can't be released.
	Maybe the chupacabra locks onto its victim with an anchor or barb on its teeth and then drains its victim while they kick and holler.
	Human victim used as an example.
	What do you think Art?
	I love you!
	My friend, what beautiful teeth you have.
	Smile a big smile for me.
	I love you, feel you, wrap myself around you.
	I want to Smile a big smile for me.
	Yeah, if you think of that song from the Jupiter's point of view...
	First on caller line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi, this is Gary from Culver City, California.
	How are you doing, Gary?
	Just fine.
	I've got a theory on the downing of Flight 800.
	Okay.
	Another one.
	That's fine.
	This is the home of all theories.
	Well, this one kind of fits all the known info.
	There's apparently been a flare that people saw, and there was an explosion.
	About a hundred people, including two ABC News last night reported On a commercial airliner, there were two military pilots who saw, their words, a missile go toward that plane.
	Right.
	Well, what I'm suggesting is perhaps the plane was hit by a meteor.
	Meteors come from above.
	Well, that's true, but at night and going across the sky, it's possible they might have seen what looks like a flare, you have to admit, when they're red and glowing.
	Now, I'm not real good at calculating stuff, but what do you suppose the odds are of a meteor that appears to rise from the ground hitting a 747.
	Well, certainly not one that comes from the ground, but certainly one coming from above that might be through, you know.
	But sir, the testimony is from a hundred people, it came from the ground.
	I mean, I'm sorry, your theory sounds cool, but it came from the ground.
	Well, if it came from the ground, I don't think it could be a meteor, but certainly I think it's worth considering.
	Why?
	Why?
	People that see some kind of glowing object going through the sky, I mean, they tend to say, well, what could that be?
	But that isn't what they said, sir.
	They said, let me repeat, it came from the ground.
	Well, perhaps what they saw was the meteor passing afterwards, or pieces of the plane flying across.
	Okay, well, I appreciate your call and your theory, but I don't think so.
	I mean, of all the ones that we do, or are going to consider, I don't think that a meteor would be in the group that I would give active consideration to.
	All the eyewitness testimony, there's a substantial body of it, says whatever it was, came from the ground.
	Now, there were exercises going on in the air.
	Could have been a military flare.
	But when you have testimony from two military pilots who ought to know what the hell they're looking at, and they say it was a missile fired from the ground, then I'm inclined to work that angle before I begin to think about meteors.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Yeah, this is Kevin from, uh, Pulaski, Tennessee.
	Pulaski, Tennessee.
	Yeah, I've called you before about my cat.
	Um, alright.
	Uh, how you doing?
	Um, okay.
	Alright.
	Uh, I've been living in Pulaski all my life, and I just found out something in the newspaper today.
	Uh, they had a Klan march down here.
	They have them all the time.
	And I just found out that Pulaski was the, uh, I guess the place where it all started at.
	And I didn't even know that.
	And I was wondering if you knew anything about it.
	No, sir.
	Uh, you're saying Pulaski is the, uh... The birthplace of it.
	The birthplace of the Klan?
	Of the Klan.
	I didn't know nothing about it.
	No, I can't say as I could verify that.
	I mean, you ought to be able to tell us.
	You live in Pulaski.
	Yeah, I live down here, but I just found out myself.
	See, so you've been living there all your life.
	Yeah, all my life, and I didn't know nothing about it.
	So then poor Art here in Nevada can't help you.
	Alright, appreciate it.
	Thanks for the call, Pulaski, Tennessee.
	Now, I don't know if that's where the Klan began.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I just think those guys have too much time on their hands, is my opinion.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Oh wow!
	Hi!
	I'm so excited!
	Do you know anything about, okay, first of all I'm Katie and I listen to KCNR in Salt Lake City, Utah.
	KCNR, Salt Lake, yep.
	Martin Davis had a fellow on his program last Friday that was talking about the Philadelphia Experiment.
	Oh, yes.
	What do you know about that?
	Quite a bit.
	I've interviewed most of the people who are still alive who've had anything to do with it, so I know quite a bit about it.
	Al Belick, for example.
	Okay, okay.
	Well, that's who Martin had on his show.
	I couldn't remember the name.
	And he said there's some kind of base at the tip of New York?
	Yes.
	Well, what Martin is thinking is it's kind of like a time machine type situation.
	Well, I'll tell you what, if you listen while I go on vacation, we have pulled what I consider to be, and many people consider to be, the definitive interview ever done, ever, with Al Belick.
	A long, extensive, Very careful, technical explanation of what occurred in the Philadelphia Experiment.
	And we're going to run that show.
	I'm not going to tell you when.
	But it's going to be while I'm on vacation.
	And it will be a show that 99.9% of this audience, you included, has never heard.
	So I recommend you listen for it while I'm flying off to Europe.
	Okay?
	And you're not going to tell us when that is?
	Well, it's going to be while I'm on vacation.
	I'm going on vacation in nine days.
	Sometime during that time, it will play.
	Well, first of all, I think I'm on to something.
	Well, you are.
	So you listen to that.
	I'm not giving dates.
	I've decided not to give dates on certain shows.
	To give it all away, right?
	Why?
	Why end the mystery?
	That's what they used to say about miniskirts.
	I think my mom said that.
	Sister.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Excuse me, this is Ann from Fullerton.
	Hi, Ann.
	I almost always listen intently to everything that goes on, but a couple of times tonight I've been away from my radio.
	It happens.
	And intermittently on the news today is all I heard.
	But last night, not long after you went off the air, they announced on ABC on the news that a The D-52 bomber had been found.
	Have you heard that?
	Found?
	They found it in Oregon.
	Two men yesterday.
	Um... With the crew on it.
	It had gone down 51 years ago and I haven't heard another word.
	You've got to be kidding.
	No, I'm not.
	It went down how long ago, hon?
	51 years ago.
	No, that, that, that, uh... I heard it on ABC News.
	I don't drink.
	Um, you don't drink?
	No.
	No?
	How about drugs?
	No, I'm a grandmother.
	How about Magic Mushrooms?
	No, honestly.
	I heard this last night on ABC.
	Well, it may be that you misheard it somehow, because B-52s weren't around that long ago, for starters.
	Well, it was supposed to have gone down during World War II, and they went into the fact that the crew was in it, the skeletons of the crew.
	And their dog tags and everything.
	Would they have announced something like that and then covered it up?
	Um... In Oregon?
	No, I don't think so.
	I'm trying to... Well, if somebody else heard it, I wish they'd call in.
	Let's turn this one over to the audience.
	How's that?
	Okay.
	Alright, thank you very much.
	A B-52 found in Oregon with a crew of skeletons from 52 years ago.
	She doesn't know what she said.
	Quite sound right to me.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Howdy.
	How you doing, Art?
	Okay, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Detroit.
	I'm that listener that keeps track.
	Oh, well, just hang in there.
	Okay.
	Got a couple of questions.
	First of all, kilos, kilos.
	Kilos, kilos.
	Now, here's a question for you.
	I'm talking on a VTEC.
	What's the government going to do?
	I'll tell you what I think they're going to do.
	Okay.
	Number one, just because you're on a VTEC, what it means is you're on that VTEC, which by the way sounds very good.
	Thank you.
	No, but your neighbors can't monitor you.
	Right.
	Nobody could sit outside in a little car monitoring what you're saying.
	Okay.
	But that doesn't mean that they couldn't tap your phone at the central office.
	Oh, okay.
	And that doesn't mean that you may well be coming to me by satellite right now.
	And they can listen that-a-way.
	Oh, okay.
	It scrambles, and then it descrambles when it goes through the phone line.
	Well, yes, that's right.
	In other words, by the time it reaches your base unit, it's back into analog.
	Right.
	And goes into the presumably, hopefully, secure phone line.
	Ha, ha, ha.
	And there, once it's there, they could get it.
	The only thing that VTech assures you of is that your neighbor's not listening.
	Somebody parked outside isn't listening.
	Somebody on a baby monitor or even a television set is not listening.
	Gotcha.
	Okay?
	Gotcha.
	So you're... It's a great phone anyway.
	Okay.
	I love it.
	Look, there's nothing like it.
	There isn't.
	And the way I got through was by the redial.
	It has the greatest redial in the world.
	It does indeed.
	You push, it does.
	Thank you sir.
	Oh wait, I got another question.
	Yeah?
	Um, you, yesterday, or maybe it was, anyways, a while back, you said things 20 years ago, or things I wish I knew 20 years ago.
	That's right.
	Knowledge that I have today about life that I wish I'd known 20 years ago.
	That time speeds up.
	I mean, I kind of understood it then, but I didn't realize it was a snowball going that fast.
	Well, it is.
	And, uh, you see, you should have made better use of your time.
	That's a true statement.
	Time speeds up as you get older.
	And if you'd known that 20 years ago, why, you'd have made better use of your time.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from July 23rd, 1996.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, this is Kay calling from Metairie, Louisiana.
	Well, hello there.
	Listen, uh, the lady that called, uh, you know, a minute ago about the, uh, B-52?
	Yes.
	That's true, I heard it.
	Say, what?
	I heard it on national news.
	Uh... They found a, uh, uh, uh, plane that went down during World War II, and the crew was still on it with the, with their dog tags.
	But not a B-52.
	It was a B-52.
	Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the B-52 existed then.
	Really?
	Well, it could be they were wrong.
	Are you sure about the plane type?
	No, I really can't be sure, because like I said, they're not sure what it was.
	But it was a plane with the crew and their dog tags, just as the lady stated.
	Well, a plane, yes, that I could understand.
	But I can't imagine a B-52.
	Maybe I'm all wet.
	There's a B-51?
	Who knows?
	I mean, I'm not familiar with planes.
	All right, sir.
	Thank you.
	I know a B-52 is old, and I know that they... It seems to me that a B-52 came shortly after World War II, and besides, a B-52 is so damn big that I don't see how it could be hidden anywhere.
	It must have been another aircraft.
	The B-52 has been our standby bomber for a very, very long time.
	And they're really quite ancient.
	But I don't think they're that ancient.
	World War Two, because we know they certainly weren't.
	We delivered the atomic bombs to Japan at the end of World War Two, not in a B-52.
	And had we had a B-52, then that would have been the aircraft of choice without question.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes, I'm calling from Anchorage.
	Anchorage, Alaska.
	Yes, sir.
	Okay.
	Hey, Art.
	I want to ask you a favor.
	I have this problem.
	I work in broadcasting, and my boss is kind of a jerk, and everybody I work with seems to be pretty rude and cruel.
	I want to stay in the business, though.
	I don't know.
	I just feel like I should move on.
	Well, there's a lot of that in broadcasting.
	Yeah.
	So, what advice are you seeking?
	I mean, how can I help you?
	Well, you mentioned earlier that you wanted to talk about people that leave their jobs for no reason or, you know, they just... Not no reason.
	I mean, just people who have quit, you know.
	Yeah.
	Well, I'm one of those people.
	I kind of move on, move from job to job, place to place.
	But I want to kind of settle in.
	Well, that's broadcasting, my friend.
	You know, it's a career that I did it for many, many, many, many years.
	All over the place.
	All over the world, in fact, in broadcasting.
	And I'm not sorry about it, but there came a point in my life where I'd had enough.
	Yeah.
	I'd be worried about getting zapped by all the EMS, too.
	Yeah, worry more about your job.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Have a good morning, sir.
	I don't know how to advise you except broadcasting is a rough business.
	You know, it's like acting.
	There's a million for every person who does well.
	There are probably hundreds who are starving.
	And listen, I'm not telling you not to get into it because if it's your passion, go for it.
	But I'm just issuing you that warning.
	I know I've been there.
	I've done that.
	For a lot of my life.
	Hand them out.
	And, uh, it's the nature of broadcasting.
	Still, though, I wouldn't change a thing in the world.
	But you've got to have that passion inculcated in you.
	If not, then go do something and make some real money.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, this is Victoria in Fairbanks.
	Hello.
	Oh, way up in Fairbanks, yes.
	Yes, where it's good and summertime now, I guess.
	Yeah, we had 78 today.
	All right.
	Supposed to have 80 tomorrow.
	Wow!
	But I just wanted to tell you that I also heard that news broadcast on ABC last night.
	About a B-52?
	Almost positive that's what they said.
	I'm not sure if they said it was from World War II, though.
	Well, that's the part I question.
	Well, I even question a B-52.
	I mean, do you know how big that aircraft is?
	That aircraft is so big that when it sits on the runway, they have to put wheels on the wings.
	Really?
	I mean, this thing is a monster.
	I've flown KC-135s.
	I've seen B-52s.
	A B-52, you know, I suppose it could go down in extremely dense jungle-like growth.
	And not be seen, but it's hard to believe.
	In Oregon.
	Yeah.
	Well, I guess they were hiking, but I can't remember the whole thing.
	I could understand a World War II vintage aircraft going down and not being found for some time, certainly.
	Maybe in Alaska.
	Even in Alaska.
	I mean, you could see a B-52 from a satellite.
	Oh, yeah?
	It's really a big aircraft.
	I didn't realize they were that big.
	Oh, they're gigantic.
	Gigantic.
	Uh, so... Oh, I'm really glad I got a hold of you.
	I've tried to call you before when we had the earthquake.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, I recall.
	Well, listen, I'm glad you got a hold of me, too.
	We'll get to the bottom of this, I assure you.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Uh, East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Morning.
	Morning.
	Da-da-da.
	Da-da.
	Da-da-da.
	Kilos.
	73.
	Are you also a fan of Slow Hands by the Pointed Sisters?
	Yes, thank you.
	You spelled out kilos to me in Morse code.
	See, I can still read it after all these years.
	I never did like Morse code, but it just always stuck with me.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Well, gone.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello?
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	Where are you?
	Blair, Nebraska.
	All right.
	This is Mike.
	Yes, Mike.
	Hey, I think I got the answer to your burning question you keep asking.
	Which one?
	About the Statler Brothers song.
	Why do you like that song?
	All right, let's hear it.
	Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you started playing that song right at the time You last tried to quit smoking.
	And there's the reference to smoking cigarettes.
	Well, maybe you're right.
	Look, the show is over.
	You get the honors.
	From Nebraska, do it.
	Good night, America.
	That's it, folks.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	Good night, America.

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