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March 21, 1996 - Art Bell

02:50:51

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland & Ken Johnston - Mars & Moon Artifacts - Press Conference Discussion

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01:06:57

richard c hoagland

44:40

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
unidentified		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be and welcome to another edition of the largest live overnight radio talk program in America.
		Maybe in the world, actually.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		And I'm Mark Bell.
		And I know a lot of you.
		Billions of you, actually, want to know what's going on with Richard Hopeland at the news conference at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. Well, you're about to find out.
unidentified		If they won't tell you, many of them didn't, we will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because coming up in just a moment is Richard Hopeland and Ken Johnston, who is NASA's data and photo documentation supervisor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That coming up in just a moment.
unidentified		Sounds of the wind
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		Coast to Coast AM This facts is typical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dear Art, it is beginning to look like the only way most of us are going to learn what happened at the press conference will be if you tell us tonight.
		I learned from the National Press Club there were about 18 cameras and 60 guests at the briefing.
		C-SPAN told me they didn't cover it because they had other things to do and because they weren't told who would be there besides Richard Hoagland.
		But there was coverage, dear art.
		I have a tape of the following report with video graphics, which was broadcast on our local news at 5 p.m., Channel 11, NBC, in Minneapolis.
		Does NASA have something to hide?
		A private science research group called the Mars Mission thinks so.
		The former NASA scientists and engineers and other researchers said today that suppressed NASA and Soviet photographs show apparent lunar ruins that may have been created by another civilization.
		I want to certainly thank Adrienne Abbott at KOH, which actually is Citadel Communications.
		After hearing our show Friday night, actually a repeat of the Friday night show, she got hold of ABC, and ABC ran some actualities from the news conference.
		ABC ran a story on the news conference.
		So our sincere thanks to our friends up at Citadel and Adrian and the whole group.
		The IRC chat channel, I understand, was something of a disaster.
		That's because the IRC chat channel is kind of like anarchy.
		In other words, you've got a million people on there at once, and so that's what you get.
		A million people on there at once.
		That's why I don't do it here on the air.
		It's simply too diverting and too anarchistic for my tastes.
		And so I guess that was a little rough.
		In the meantime, knowing that you would want to know what really went on, I have a very tired Richard Hoagland and Ken Johnston on the phone all the way from, I would guess, somewhere in Washington, D.C. Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From high atop Capitol Hill, the view out my window here is absolutely stunning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I am looking at the Capitol Dome of the United States Capitol in the center of power of the United States, the last reigning superpower of the Western world.
		And you know, I can't help thinking, if I look to the left, I can see the Washington Monument, and just beyond that, I can see the White House all glistening in the dark on this beautiful, you know, spring evening.
		I can't help thinking that there's something radically wrong with this republic, where a group of scientists who are willing to come forward and talk about a problem with this government cannot get coverage on most of the news outlets in this country after they spent a lot of time and effort and put on a two-hour major presentation, which was carried live to the rest of the world.
		Telmundo carried this program from Miami by satellite live to all of South America, to Spain, Portugal, the Mediterranean.
		I had a live conversation with a producer afterward.
		They were so excited by the photographs.
		They were so entrenched by the analysis.
		They were so in tune with the historical aspect of what we are proposing and what has to happen now.
		And in this country, it's as if it did not happen.
		And we're the ones that spent, guys, $20 billion to go to the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely right now.
		Worldwide coverage everywhere else in the world, but here.
		People were searching frantically.
		C-SPAN, CNN.
		I guess ABC did give you some coverage.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the coverage is very intriguing because you're getting a lot of conflicting reports that don't square with our reports.
		We had, as I said, there were like 15 to 16, 18 cameras, something like that.
		You couldn't see the back because of the number of cameras.
		C-SPAN did show up at 10.30.
		C-SPAN put in an appearance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I was getting all kinds of reports about C-SPAN.
		C-SPAN said, well, we didn't cover it.
		Then they said, we did cover it, but we're not going to broadcast it.
		This is what they were telling people.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I find bizarre is if they're not going to broadcast it, why bother to show up?
		And why show up?
		You know, we started at 9 a.m.
		They didn't show up until 10.30.
		We went to 11.15, actually 11.20.
		And then the press club had to ask us to close down because they had another event happening in 40 minutes.
		There was a major banquet taking place.
		This was at the grand ballroom.
		This was the center stage of the press club where lots of other events are scheduled.
		So they were very kind to us to give us another 20 minutes over the time that we had reserved.
		But why show up if you're not going to put it on the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		I agree.
		And there were thousands of angry phone calls to C-SPAN.
		I know a few things.
		C-SPAN put in a special telephone response thing just for you.
		And so there was a very great deal going on.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Did anybody tape that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did anybody tape what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I actually did not call, so I didn't hear, but I understand that when you call up, you've got one of these dial selector things.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you would like to know about the Hoagland Press Conference press, something or other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		I don't know if anybody taped it.
		I didn't, but I got a lot of reports on it, so I know it's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You see, I have not talked to Brian Lamb directly, and I would love to, because I don't understand the logic.
		If you think we're silly and we're out to lunch, fine, ignore us.
		If you don't think we're silly and you think there's something interesting, why not put us on the air?
		But if you think we're silly and you still show up and you put it on tape so that there's a record of it, but you're not going to use it, that's kind of a waste of time and effort and money, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have to but wonder at a program that ran, instead of what would have been you live, something about FDR's name used in ideological arguments or some obscure something, something like that.
unidentified		Anyway, I can hear someone chuckling in the background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's true.
		Ken Johnston is probably the chuckler, and he's on the line with us.
		And Ken, you were NASA's data and photo documentation supervisor.
		Is that correct?
unidentified		Well, good morning, Mark.
		I'd like to kind of clear that up just a little bit.
		I was working for one of the prime contractors for NASA at the time.
		That was Brown and Root Northrop.
		It was a consortium between Brown and Root Corporation and the Northrop Corporation at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory.
		They had the contract for the processing of the lunar samples, and my particular function was the supervisor of the Data and Photo Control Department, which handled all of the photographic as well as written documentation about the lunar samples.
		So everything that came in went through you?
		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you get involved with Richard Hoagland, and why, and what is it that you believe?
unidentified		Well, that's a rather interesting story in itself.
		About almost a year ago, as a matter of fact, May the 2nd, it will be a year, when Mr. Hoagland was out in the Seattle, Washington area doing a conference seminar on the Mars-Moon connection.
		As a matter of fact, one of the gentlemen who listens to your program regularly had told me about Mr. Hoagland and his research on the Mars face on Mars, something that I had been interested in way back when I was more involved in the space program.
		So I'd read his book, and I thought, well, what a great opportunity to go and hear the man speak in person, and particularly since he's going to be talking about a connection between Mars and the program I was very intimately involved in, the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		So I wrote up a letter of introduction and kind of told him a little bit about myself, what I'd done and been involved in in the photographic portion of that mission, and showed up a little bit early in hopes I could get him to autograph my book.
		One of his associates, Rhonda Ekvin, read the letter and said, oh, don't move.
		She said, you're the guy we've been looking for.
		And I kind of stood there a little bit concerned, but she went in the back, and next thing I know, I've been ushered in the back and introduced to Richard.
		And long story short, after the seminar, we made arrangements for them to come over to my house the next day and take a look at some of the data that I maintained on about 500 to 1,000 photographs in my own personal collection.
		And I'd explained to them that I had a complete set of all of the photographic data from the Apollo missions at my college, Alma Mater, back in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City University.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, you've got to understand, Art, this was literally days after the bombing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the idea that there was a priceless archive of photographs sequestered in Oklahoma City was pretty amazing to me, given the context of what was going on at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I didn't even know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were blown up in that explosion?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no.
		But the coincidence that that's, of all the, you know, it's like that old joke from Castle Blanca, of all the gin joints in all the world.
		The idea that Ken had placed these photographs outside NASA 30 years ago in that university, literally across the street.
unidentified		It was just a few blocks down the street, and when I was in Oklahoma City, of course, that area was cordoned off, and you couldn't drive next to it, but I was able to drive close enough that I could actually see the tragedy that had happened there.
unidentified		And, of course, the city was still in a state of shock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Ken, what do you think?
		First of all, did you have in that collection photographs that are now not available from NASA?
unidentified		Well, from what I understand from the photographic experts, the prints that I have and the negatives and film strips that I have, these were made off of the first generation, the originals.
		And that the data that they're able to extract from it and things that we can see in those has so far superior to anything they've been able to get from other repositories, that I guess the answer is yes.
		There's a lot of things in there that you can see that you wouldn't ordinarily be able to find on material that you'd get from other sources.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, you're the photographic person, so I'll ask you a hard question.
		Is it because you've got a close-in generation of photographs that you can see these things, or in your opinion, were there things that in later photographs simply were erased?
unidentified		I think I probably ought to defer that one to Richard since they've analyzed it.
unidentified		And mostly I just wind up the person that had a little foresight to think that we shouldn't throw all of the stuff away.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Here is a very critical political question arc because when we got Kim's data and there's a massive amount, it's voluminous and we have only really intensively looked at a tiny portion of a large collection of prints and other material that he has bequeathed to us on this long-term loan arrangement.
		The first thing that I wanted to do of course was to check with the official sources with MSSDC.
		Our friends here in Washington that we went to a year ago and had the two-day meeting.
		We took eight people into the lab and spent two days looking at the photographic processes and the archiving and the record keeping and why were there duplicate numbers at the same frames that were different, the so-called 4822 problem and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I had one member of our team literally drive 10,000 miles coast to coast with a very complex piece of equipment from Los Angeles to Goddard, set it up and go through tens of thousands of feet of film stock in preparation for this analysis.
		And then Carrie Clark, my own administrative assistant now who formerly ran a major photographic laboratory in New York and has been working with us for about three years on this, she went down to Washington from New York and spent two days with John looking at the stills, the Hasselblad stills.
		And we had taken the frame numbers for comparison from Ken's data.
		And the first thing we found, Ken, and I don't know whether you realize this, is that the numbers on the photographs you have are not the same numbers that are now out of the archive in Washington here.
unidentified		That's amazing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Particularly that panorama, the one where you can see the intense geometric haze above the horizon, 360 degrees around, that was misfiled.
		And they looked and they looked and they looked, and it was only because the head of the lab had remembered seeing that somewhere else, his own memory, that he was able to go and put his hands on it.
		And it was one of those puzzles like, well, God, how did this get in here?
		This shouldn't be in here.
		This is misfiled.
		So we put it in order, very complex order, months ago to get comparison photographs so we could look at them side by side prior to this morning's briefing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that order has been delayed and delayed and delayed and delayed.
		And finally, three days ago, I had Kerry call the head of the lab here at NSSDC, and he had sworn that this had gone out by FedEx a week ago.
		And he went to another office and found it sitting on someone's desk.
		And we did not get it in time to make the comparison.
		So in actuality, Art, I can't answer your question, except qualitatively, it appears that most of this information has disappeared from the current record just because of generational problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of things are found just sitting on desks in Washington.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In other words, there seem to be what we would term foot dragging in the extreme.
		And this is a part of a pattern that we've noticed.
		I have not seen any over examples that I could put my finger on in this lunar work of outright retouching or airbrushing or faking of pictures or destruction of data.
		What I find is a pattern of deception, a pattern of losing information, of mislabeling it, of publishing catalogs where the photographs appear black, but when you order the picture, the picture is stunning and very good.
		In other words, I see a pattern of trying to deter people, trying to dissuade people from getting access to the data.
		But if you're persistent and you will not be deterred, ultimately the real data can be found.
		And this gives me reason to believe that someone somewhere in NASA realizes that someday this is going to come out.
		And you know that the major crime is not the crime.
		It's always the cover-up of the crime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So this looks like plausible deniability because at any point that we get in the process and find real data, someone can always say, oh, they ran out of ink.
		Or, oh, they had somebody in from a temp office who filed it wrong that day.
		You can never pin them for the mistake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, very quickly, I've got to ask you about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A number of people said that the reason C-SPAN did not cover was because you had refused to give them a list of who was going to be there.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have held two press conferences before at the National Press Club on this investigation.
		The first was in 1988 when the Russians launched to Mars.
		We thought it was important that they go and take pictures of Sidonia.
		The second was on the date that the Mars Observer spacecraft was supposed to enter Mars orbit, and we had planned to hold a press conference at that time anyway to encourage NASA with Mars Observer to take new pictures of Sidonia.
		And we had 100 show up.
		We had 100 show up this time.
		We had 18 cameras, and we specifically did not reveal Ken's name or Mars Arnik's name or the other participants to simply protect them from undue pressure prior to laying out the data.
		The fact that everybody else showed up and didn't claim that we hadn't revealed their names and that we had a track record of providing a good news story.
		We had promised them responsible people, formerly with NASA.
		We did go to the extent of saying that.
		We did go to the extent of saying it was specifically in terms of photographs that were going to be discussed from inside NASA and what was on them.
		The idea that you don't provide a name, I mean, in Washington, sources are commonly withheld until the last minute at a press conference.
		This is not unusual at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That, frankly, is an excuse that will not stand the light of day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I had to run it by you.
		Ken, you've looked at these photographs.
		Do you see the same anomalies?
		Do you see the same things that Richard Hoagland sees?
unidentified		The more and more I've been exposed to looking at the data and realizing actually without the aid of any kind of instrumentation, you can actually see some of the anomalies on just the raw film and pictures itself.
		One of the most striking things I have found in one of the comments that one of the analysts Was making is says, if you really want to see what somebody doesn't want you to see on the moon, look in the visor of the person being photographed.
		And it was a rather unique experience.
		We started looking at that with magnifying glasses and looking at the reflections and the curvature of the face mask of the asthmatonal inner surface.
		And there's some rather striking pictures that show what appears to be constructed structures, ladders, portals, some very, very interesting things in the visor and a number of pictures.
		So the answer is yes.
		There are definitely things you can see with the naked eye.
		And then when you start getting some of the enhancement and techniques that Alex Cook had done, just a young man in a dark room working by himself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, I'm going to ask you to hold it there.
		We're breaking here at the bottom of the hour, and we'll pick this back up out of the bottom of the hour.
		A contractor for NASA, actually, with all the data and photo documentation, a supervisor Ken Johnston and Richard Hoagland.
		Back in a moment.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		on this Somewhere in Time.
		Thank you.
		Now we take you back to the past on Arkbell somewhere in time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure is, and I have with me Richard C. Hoagland, who was a science advisor to Walter Cronkite.
		I did some work for NASA.
		And for a long time has been an advocate that there's much more on the moon and Mars than we've been told.
		With him tonight is Ken Johnston, who was a contractor taking care of, actually was NASA's data and photo documentation supervisor by contract.
		And in other words, he's the guy who got all the photos.
		And he's with us.
unidentified		back in a moment you're listening to art bell somewhere in time tonight featuring coast to coast a_m_ from march twenty first nineteen ninety six the
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Richard C. Hoagland and Ken Johnston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, you were in the middle of something, so please continue.
unidentified		Well, I was just explaining about whether or not I think it asked us whether we had seen any unusual features in the pictures.
		And the answer is, yes, we did.
		You have to understand that I'd had these pictures, my own personal set that I kept for myself, which was about a thousand pictures inside of plastic where I could flip through them.
		Occasionally, someone would show some interest, and I'd flip to them.
		And, you know, good old soldiers, we looked at them, we saw what we were told we were going to see.
		But when Richard and his team came over and we took a serious look at it and got out some loops, it was amazing the things that they had seen in some of those 8th and 10th generations.
		It just stood out blatantly right on the pictures that I had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		A fact.
		Please ask Ken, and I think you just answered it, if he knew there were artifacts and or structures or anything anomalous in the photos he possessed before he met Richard.
unidentified		Well, the answer I just gave is no, I really didn't have a chance to pay that much attention to it.
		I guess when they came over and we started looking at them and they started pointing out some of the features, I was taken back because here I had them in my possession for about 18, 20, some odd years and really never seriously sat down and looked at them.
		They were just great pictures of the lunar surface as well as orbital shots and the astronauts in them.
		These were men that I had worked with and knew quite well when I was one of the consultant test pilots with Grumman on the lunar module.
		And I never considered that there might be something there that I wasn't told to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hiding in plain sight.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		This is very important because a lot of people don't understand.
		They almost say, look, Oglund, if you're right, you know, this stuff should be like New York City.
		Everybody should have seen it.
		You can't be right because all of NASA can't be in on the conspiracy.
		You know, you have to be out to lunch.
		And what Kim has just described is a crucial piece of information and perspective.
		We tend to see in life what we expect to see.
		And Kim's own experience, which is what I wanted him to relate to the National Press Corps this morning, is of an honest guy doing a job that was an 18, 20-hour day demanding Chinese fire drill of getting astronauts to and from the moon safely, as rapidly, rapid fire, bang, bang, bang as possible.
		Nobody had time in the system to look at and question details and photographs when the official interpreters were telling them this is what you're seeing.
		And it's that process of expecting to see what you expect to see, which I think accounts for the fact that you only require a tiny handful of people at the top to manipulate a system so everybody Else, as honest as they are and as hardworking, as motivated as they are, they just don't see it because it's not blatantly obvious.
		It requires an educated eye to understand how to look at these photographs to start with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Would you please give us a rundown, since the rundown was not given ahead of time, about who was there?
		We know that Ken certainly was there.
		And who else did you have at the press conference, and what kind of reception did they get?
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In addition to Ken, we had Marvin Zarnik, who is an engineer.
		His experience goes back all the way to the Mercury program in Gemini.
		He was a key engineer responsible for the rendezvous radar development and implementation of procedures in Gemini, and later on he helped train the Apollo crews in the development of rendezvous techniques.
		And he was also involved, I believe, in environmental control systems.
		And basically, his experience was with the astronauts, with the day-to-day operations, with the engineering, with the process of going to and from the moon.
		And he then went to a major aerospace company, McDonnell Douglas, where he spent a lot of times working with both NASA systems as well as military black budgeted systems.
		And when he heard me at Ohio State a couple three years ago through the internet, what Marvin did was to set up an independent team called LARGE for Lunar Artifacts Group in St. Louis.
		And he presented the results of their team's five-person independent analysis of our claims as of Ohio State.
		And Ken, you might want to pick up on some of the things that Marvin said this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, please, Ken.
unidentified		Well, I think it was the independent verification.
		And it's one of the things that he has said he's done all along.
		His team would go in and get the same negatives and pictures and do their own independent research.
		And then I think it was shortly after that that he got in touch with you, Richard, that after he had checked it out himself.
		In the same thing way that Alex hooked it.
		You know, these are very honest people that wanted to, I guess you might say from Missouri.
		Show me.
		I want to find out for myself.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In this case, he is from Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, fair enough.
		And this is good information, Richard, because a lot of people say you're hanging out on a limb by yourself, claiming things that just aren't true with processed photographs that just don't show what you say it shows.
		But there's been independent analysis of what you're saying.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is crucial, and that's what I've been asking for from the start.
		Ken mentioned Alex Cook.
		Alex Cook was there representing, you know, basically Mr. Joe Average, although I don't think that Alex could be called average.
		Would you say, Ken?
unidentified		No, not at all.
unidentified		He is certainly just a private individual.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He represents the best or the brightest of ordinary folk who are properly motivated.
		Alex is a young man.
		He's going to school, going to university up north of Seattle.
		He's married.
		He has a child, I believe.
		He attended one of my presentations at the University of Washington a couple, three years ago, and he saw this data for the first time.
		In fact, I think I did that right after Ohio State.
		And he was so taken with the photographs that he followed my recommendation.
		He called up NASA.
		He started ordering frames on a student's budget.
		And you remember, I told you, Art, that they've now gone up 800% in price.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, correct.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So this represented a significant investment of student personal resources.
		When he got the frames back, one of the first things he immediately noticed was what he thought was the absolutely lousy quality of this frame 4822.
		And he called me up, and he was kind of bitching and moaning, and I asked him to look on the photograph to see if this structure we call the castle, this glittering glass thing hanging nine miles above the moon, was present on his version of this frame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And he admitted, I mean, he found it, and he was quite excited because this represented the first confirmation outside of my Goddard source that it provided to me initially, that an average person ordering The photograph through NASA could get this frame with this structure.
		He then proceeded to send me the original negative after he made duplicates and prints and all that.
		And when we got it and compared it to our own data, we then realized that Alex Cook had made a major step forward in the investigation at that point because his frame, the Cook 4822, contained the first stereo pair of the castle.
		An image taken a few minutes later showing it had changed the angle and position over the surface so we can get a 3D stereo comparison with actually how big it is and how far away it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, would you agree with that assessment?
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		That was one of the things that the crew did, they would take sequenced shots timed to give them a stereographic view of objects and the linear surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, since you're the great expert in this area, Ken, how can one photograph or I I assumed, wrong thing to do, of course, that one photograph would be assigned one number?
unidentified		Well, that came as a surprise to me because when we would be looking for specific views of the surface as well as where lunar rocks and things were located, even stereo pairs had sequential numbering back whenever we were getting the original data.
unidentified		So that was a surprise to me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We now have 10 different versions of this one crucial frame, and they're all masquerading under the same frame number.
		And for that reason alone, there should be a major inquiry.
		If I have an X amount of dollars in my bank account, and the IRS comes to me and they say, wait a minute, Mr. Hoagland, you have X dollars times 10.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, people can get a little bit pissed off at that at the federal level.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, here we have, for this one frame, 10 times the number of images all masquerading under one frame number, and nobody has to be a rocket scientist to realize there ain't something, you know, right with all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		In your pre press release, or press conference press release, you said you were going to have some photographs taken by Russians.
		Did you display those?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We actually ran out of time at the end, and we were not able to display those to the group this morning.
		But we do have two frames now taken from the Zond 3 mission, which were in the press packets.
		We had a lot of material in the press packets that they were able to take away from the conference that we, you know, some of which we didn't get to during the actual live presentation.
		We had hard copy, it was annotated, it had the proper background sourcing and all that.
		We now have a second frame from the Zond 3 mission on July 20th, 1965.
		And remember, the first Zond frame showed this 30-mile-high dome-like protrusion at the lunar limb.
		This second frame shows a 20-some-mile tower, very massive tower, which is farther to the north on the limb of a photograph taken a few seconds earlier in this 28-frame sequence that we can't get our hands on out of Moscow.
		And it is pointed, aimed straight down toward the center of the moon.
		In other words, the tower is a tower.
		It knows where the local gravity should be pointing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, have you seen these photos?
unidentified		Yes, I did.
		And that was one of the most fascinating things I ever saw when Richard Nim showed me, because there is clearly this dome on the limb of the lunar surface with the sun coming up behind it.
		And there's this huge chunk.
		It literally shows that it has been battered and beat, but it's still pretty much intact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is also totally incredible.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You keep saying that, Arthur.
		What's incredible is not the data.
		What's incredible is the response of our government and our major media to this data.
		That's the incredible part, because what this really is affirming is what we're claiming.
		You're not getting the whole truth here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's the incredible part of this story.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to interject here.
		Here we put together the greatest minds and the brightest and youngest and sharpest that we could to get to the moon.
		And right after Apollo 17, we turned around and we started laying everybody off.
		Right after Apollo 11, it was no longer research and development.
		It was routine flights to the moon.
		And Grumman laid off 30,000 right there.
		He had PhDs selling papers here in Houston.
		And then basically, once we got there and grabbed the data and got back, they dismantled the whole system that got us there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		We went and we've done nothing since.
		And it's a puzzle to many people.
		I suppose you could suggest, well, we went to the moon and this is the conventional wisdom and didn't find anything.
		Nothing special.
		Rocks.
		That's about it.
		And so there was no reason to go back.
		I guess you too figure that is not.
		I would not agree with that assessment, nor would I. So you had engineers.
		You had Ken, who was a photo documentation supervisor with all of the photographs.
		First-generation copies, right, Ken, coming through you?
unidentified		They would be the copies right off the first generation positive transparencies that were taken.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, see, this is a very important piece of information.
		When NASA sent the Apollo cruise to the moon, for some reason, and we have our suspicions, but we don't have a memo describing why, there wasn't any negative film sent.
		In other words, they didn't send a roll of film that when you bring it back and you develop it, you get a negative from which you can make a paper print.
		They sent transparency film, reversal film, slide film, really, ectachrome X rated ASA 64 in 1969.
		And then from those transparencies, something called an internegative had to be made.
		And from that internegative, you'd make your print.
		So there was a two-stage process.
		So Ken's prints actually were not second generation.
		They were third generation from the original data.
		And in that intermediate step, in that second generation process, is where we believe that some interesting hanky-panky went on.
unidentified		Let me interject here.
		Sure.
		That was one of the questions a lot of people ask when they look at the pictures I have in my collection.
		Why is this guy absolutely totally black?
		And of course, the explanation I was given at the time is with all the brightness on the lunar surface and the astronauts' white spacesuits, that you had to step down the focus on it, not folks, but the F-Stop.
		Yeah, the F-Stop to the point to where it caused the sky and everything to be totally black.
		That's the story we were given.
		That's the explanation I gave up until just recently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what is your more recent explanation?
unidentified		I'm going to let Richard answer that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you take a reversal film and you expose it, if the moon was as advertised, even if you open the lens wide and you had a time exposure of, let's say, several seconds, the sky should still be absolutely black.
		A vacuum is a vacuum, is a vacuum.
		There's supposed to be no air on the moon, you know, except for maybe light scattered in the lens from the surface or the spacesuits, which would cause a kind of a graying out.
		You know, that sky should be beautiful velvet black, as black as the blackest night you can imagine.
		In fact, when you start looking at Ken's prints, which now remember are third generation from the original, taken on the moon, there is a beautiful, very slight bluish haze in the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A bluish haze.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		A very deep, deep, deep.
		You know, looking at it on a bright light, just holding the print at the right angle.
		And I started to think, wait a minute, why is this sky not black?
		Why does it have any haze at all?
		Because the photos were not overexposed.
		They were very well exposed.
		They were perfectly exposed.
		I mean, these things have been sitting in archives for 30 years, and they were better in terms of quality than the photos we were seeing right out of the lab at NSSDC just a few months before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the possibility of dust that had been kicked up by the NSSD?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but dust would not remain suspended.
		And there was no sources of dust.
		I mean, you're in a vacuum, you're under one-sixth gravity, the stuff falls down.
		I mean, gravity is gravity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No air to suspend.
		Anyway, so we put these photos under the optical scanner and used the computer algorithms that we've been working with now for several years.
		And the most amazing geometric patterns come out of this haze.
		Because what the computer is able to do, because it's sensing gray levels and light levels below the human ability to detect light steps.
		Sure, sure.
		The technology is better than the natural human eye.
		That's what technology does.
		It amplifies human senses.
		So what we're doing is we're simply amplifying information that's already there and making it blatant, whereas if you look at the print, you can barely see that there's something out of place.
unidentified		Technology wasn't even available.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I know, and not even foreseen.
		Now here's where the hanky-panky comes in.
		If we had the original transparencies, not the prints that Ken has, but the transparencies, it's my bet that we would have amazing detail in the sky you could look at by simply looking at a bright light.
		That these photographs were exposed to record the glittering glass domes and structures and ruins that are sticking up above the horizon.
		That in fact that was why NASA went with a transparency film.
		That they had a special film built which had an ultraviolet sensitive layer that would record that information even better than conventional electricomex film.
		And that in the laboratory, by putting a filter in the optical enlarger when you made your internegative, they could remove almost all trace of that offending detail.
		So in essence, they had an almost foolproof scheme for taking pictures of real data on the moon and giving to the American people and the press and the world a false, distorted version of the moon that really is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you had coverage by Telemundu worldwide.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We had Australian television.
		We had German television.
		I did interviews.
		We were mobbed with cameras.
		Ken was mobbed with cameras.
		Alex was mobbed with cameras.
		Fox did a very good interview here, which ran coast to coast at various times on the Fox network.
		Very balanced coverage, right, Ken?
unidentified		I absolutely thought they were fair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they were fair.
		I'm glad to hear it.
		Well, maybe this will be enough of a spark to ignite yet more massive coverage.
		Ken, what's your attitude about that?
		Do you think NASA will begin looking hard at this now?
unidentified		I certainly hope they will.
		I will say this, though, at the coverage that FOSS gave, the one person that was the rebuttal young man wasn't even born when these pictures were taken, and he's telling you that we're all wet.
		I would hope they'd take it seriously and come out and do the analysis.
		We've recorded all the steps that they've done to look at these items and look at these artifacts, and all they have to do is just repeat the steps and answer the question, is there something there or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Gentlemen, I'll give you an option.
		I know you're both dog-tired, and I'm sure you feel the way I did after my book signing, kind of worn to a frazzle.
		We could either continue or we can let it go here.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we need to talk to some real folks, and I'll tell you why.
		As we were building up, I got a lot of factors and calls from people in your audience that were basically giving us moral support.
		And I think we deserve to answer some of their questions.
		And while we have Ken, this is a very important opportunity.
		Ken is feeling a little bit lonely right now.
		And one of the things that I think he'd like to do is to encourage other folks in NASA who may have done the same thing he did, put data away, you know, look at it inside, ask some questions, but don't quite know who to go to to talk to about this.
		Trust them to come forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we will do that as we get out of the system.
		You got to hold on, Richard.
		All right, both of you hold on.
		We'll be back to you shortly.
unidentified		You are listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		Coast to Coast AM from March
		Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		21st, 1996.
		Record Network Present Software Institute from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have with us Richard D. Holmes.
		And we have a contractor present and the Director of Network data.
		And here with Richard Holmes.
		And we're talking with him about what happened and what didn't happen.
		And we'll get back to it in a moment.
unidentified		Thank you.
		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, as we go back to our two guests, this report of coverage by KBC Television in Los Angeles tonight at 11.30, actually after we went on the air, female anchor.
		Well, the man that once said he found a human-like face in a photograph on Mars tonight claims he spotted signs of an ancient civilization on the moon.
		Richard Hoagland held a news conference displaying magnified portions of pictures taken by the Apollo astronauts on the lunar surface.
		Now he sees a Grecian-like temple, a mile and a half high formation, and what he calls a glass dome.
		Apollo 12 astronaut Alan Beam says not true.
		He took many of those photos, says he doesn't see any signs of civilizations or little moon condos or anything else.
		Other anchor, maybe he needs new glasses.
		Female, maybe.
		That was the essence of the newscast that ran at 11.30 on KBC television in Los Angeles.
		Richard, do you want to react to that?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's interesting about Alan Bean.
		We have a film that was released by NASA in 1969 called Apollo 12 Pinpoint for Science, which was the half-hour official NASA PR film on the Apollo 12 mission.
		And we have had that film analyzed frame by frame.
		There are some remarkable sequences from that film.
		And I have to describe how the film was made, because when the Apollo program was underway, what people have to understand is there was this incredible demand for time.
		Ken, how many hours a day were you putting in on Apollo when you were there?
unidentified		Well, for most of it, the early stage, we were putting in anywhere from 12 to 14 hours, seven days a week.
unidentified		Back in Bath Pays, Long Island at the final assembly plants for the lunar module, we had one guy who had been doing that for like three years, came in, clocked in, turned around, had a heart attack, and died because that was extremely stressful to do that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So between the missions, there was no pause.
		There was no breathing space.
		There was no time for reflection or analysis or any kind of scientific process that a scientist would recognize.
		So it was bang, bang, bang, mission after mission after mission.
		And during the, right after the Apollo 12 mission, which occurred in November of 1969, NASA PR in Washington here wanted a film to get out to the news media.
		And the procedure was that they would take the photos the astronauts had taken on the moon, the still photos.
		They would make up prints, they'd rush them over to this production house, I think it was in Houston, run by Ken Grimm at the time, and they would put them on what's called an Oxbury animation stand.
		And they would point a 16mm camera at them.
		And they would pan the stills.
		And they would make their film from the film of the stills that the astronauts had taken.
		On Apollo 12, the astronauts did not take any 16 millimeter motion picture film on the surface outside the lunar module.
		They took Hasselblad stills from still cameras mounted on the chest of their spacesuits.
		And then those were used to make up the film as part of the elaborate production process when they came back.
		Well, we noticed when one of our colleagues, the same gentleman who drove his equipment 10,000 miles from California from Los Angeles to Goddard, when we put one of these original films, which is now 30 years old, it's faded, it's brittle, you know, it breaks in the projector in the Telesini, when we put it on the instrument and had him look at it, there were some remarkable peculiarities about this official NASA-released film.
		And what I did was I had him make a videotape copy of the film through this very high-quality electronic system, which he's developed based on German engineering for the Hollywood film industry out in California.
		State-of-the-art art.
		Okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I had him send it to me, and I put it through our computer process, which is able to take still frames, digitize them, enlarge them, and then using a variety of algorithms, enhance them.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And on those frames from NASA's own film, we have photographs of Alan Bean standing in front of stunning, geometric, tiered, recessed, buttressed lunar ruins over and over again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then what do you make of his statement?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Let me get back to the statement in a minute.
		Let me complete this thought.
		What is really important is that this film, Pinpoint for Science, was an official release document from NASA.
		It's all over the world.
		It's in libraries, you know, in every country, every NASA center, every major city should have this film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that underscores my question.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which means people should be able to get access to it and do the same thing with it that we've done with it.
		So now we come back to Alan Bean.
		Alan Bean is claiming to ABC tonight that he didn't see anything, and as far as he knows, there's nothing there.
		Now, what I need to see is the exact wording of his statement.
		Remember, the art of politics is the exact language.
		The State Department spends a fortune writing draft language for relations between countries because a word or a comma legally has a whole different meaning.
		What is very clear here, because we've got the evidence, all right, is a situation very similar to Hillary Clinton.
		Hillary Clinton got a document out of her library the other day that she wasn't supposed to have.
		We don't know how it got into her library.
		She claims she doesn't know how it got to her library on the third floor of the White House.
		But the document exists.
		We have photographs of Alan Bean standing in front of ruins on the lunar surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So somebody ought to put that photo up in front of him and say, what about this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And until he is confronted face to face with this photo and asked, how can you say it's not there when it's there on official release prints that NASA sent all over the world, and all we've done is go back to the original NASA film and simply turn up the contrast?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what we did.
		Listen to me for a second, Richard.
		A serious question.
		This is from me.
		You've been talking about what could and could not be seen according to certain filtering.
		What do we know about the astronauts' visors?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		Excellent question.
		The astronauts' visors were gold, and Ken, correct me at any point if I'm wrong here.
		They were gold-plated multiple layer of lexan, which is a very hard plastic.
		And they had a pull-down gold lexan covering so that they could filter out ultraviolet light.
		Now, the first thing I thought of when we got these photographs is, oh my God, here's the greatest tragedy in history.
		We send human beings to the moon to explore the moon to find what no one has found before, and because of the basic equipment they had, which was a filter that cut out ultraviolet, they missed seeing the most stunning, obvious thing they should have seen, which is these tiered ruins around them made of glass shining brightly in the ultraviolet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could it be?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, and I'll tell you why.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because we have photographs of the astronauts with those gold overvisors raised up, looking at the moon directly with the unaided eye through the plastic visor.
unidentified		Right, those were used when looking directly up sun, looking toward sun.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And because these things glow most brightly looking away from the sun, when you look at the Apollo 14 panoramas provided by Ken, you can see Shepard's shadow extending out, and the stuff in the sky, the crud, the glass, the domes, the ruins, are most brightly visible away from the sun when you would put the visor up so you could see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ken.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there's another thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		On Apollo 12 from Ken's archive, we have photographs of P. Conrad looking at Bean and Bean looking at Conrad and taking pictures of each other, and we have ruins reflected in the visors of the other astronaut.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ken, you weren't a NASA data and photo documentation supervisor or under contract to do that for NASA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you, have you seen these same things that Richard is now talking about?
unidentified		Yes, I have.
		In fact, that's what I was saying.
		When they first came over to my house, and we just took out a normal, I guess what were those, about five or ten power little.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we had little photographic loops that Rick Harry carries around.
unidentified		Right, and you could actually see some of these right there.
		In fact, my wife discovered one of the first ones, and that set us all off.
		It's kind of like an Easter egg hunt almost.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's something else, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Two years ago, when Alan Bean, and it's interesting that Alan Bean has been picked, you know, obviously he's been picked because we cited him at the press conference this morning as one of the guys that we've got photographs of standing in front of these things.
		We also have the lunar module parked right in front of one of these stepped-tiered buttresses, which is identical to the same kind of buttressing we see on the Apollo 14 data, 122 miles away, but at a greater distance.
		In other words, we've got convergent data on two different data sets, the NASA film and the prints that Ken put away in the archive, and they're two different sources and they're showing us the same stuff.
		That's called science.
		But let me get back to Bean, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The thing that strikes me about Bean is that Bean was a visual guy.
		Alan Bean, when he retired from the Astronaut Corps, became an artist.
		Alan Bean is a professional artist, and he's a damn good artist.
		Now, I used to do art when I was in a museum game back in Springfield.
		One of the things that I did was I painted.
		And when I went to NBC as an unpaid consultant the night of the first surveyor landing, I came back to the museum from New York in 65 or 66, and I painted the version of what it would have been like to stand on the moon next to a surveyor looking up at the earth, which still hangs in the Museum of Science in Springfield, Massachusetts.
		One of my heroes was Chesley Bonstell, who was the first realistic space illustrator of this century.
		When Alan Bean retired from being an astronaut, he took his talent and turned into a professional space illustrator.
		And he has produced all kinds of artwork, centering and moving around the theme of the Apollo missions to the moon.
		So his artistic background and training and curiosity and talent was honed to a fine art, pun intended, in terms of his later profession.
		And he's done some very, very, very striking work, which has captured the essence of the Apollo spirit and what we all thought was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this makes it all the more difficult.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Listen to this.
		He was asked in an interview, if this was simple, anybody would be doing it.
		There's a profound mystery here.
		We've got to get to the bottom of the mystery, all right?
		When Alan Bean was asked by Newsweek in 192 years ago, when was the 25th anniversary of Apollo 11?
		The 25th anniversary was 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Five?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last year.
unidentified		Last year.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When Newsweek did a special issue on Apollo and the space program, they interviewed a lot of the astronauts.
		Where were you then and where are you now?
		What do you think?
		where should we be going and all that?
		And the reporter asked specifically, the correspondent asked Alan Bean, what did space look like from the lunar surface?
		And Bean's reaction is stunningly insightful.
		And I would like to ask him face-to-face about it because he looked thoughtful.
		And then he said, you know, it's always puzzled me.
		He said, it resembled black patent leather shoes.
		Now think about this.
		This is an artist remembering a visual impression stored in the subconscious.
		What's the hallmark of black patent leather shoes?
		They're black, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But they're shiny black.
		Space should be velvet black.
		It should be inky black.
		It should be infinity, unending, deep, endless black.
		It shouldn't be shiny.
		And his artist memory was remembering that during the moon walks, the sky looked like patent leather shoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I rest my case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's one for you again.
		Look, if you had the Russian pictures you talk about, and they clearly show large structures, why in the world would you not have shown them right away to catch the attention right away of the Russian people?
		Can I jump in on that one?
		Yeah, you may, sure.
unidentified		Okay.
		The same thing is that we discussed how to present this material, and because it's kind of a progressive process, because when you first look at it, you say, oh, well, that's the moon.
		I mean, we've been looking at the moon for thousands of years and seeing it.
		And we wanted to present it in such a way to building up to a climax to show that the items last day were just so blatant.
		So we were in a process of getting there, and then we got cut short.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We also were building credibility.
		Remember, we're making an extraordinary claim, and I wanted to put forward people like Marv Czarnick and Ken and Ron Nix.
		Ron Nix was our resident geologist on the panel this morning.
		He has extensive background with Parsons and other major engineering firms in the oil industry.
		He stood up there for 10, 15 minutes.
		And again, you know, Ken, you can testify if you would like.
		He basically said, I'm looking at these pictures, and as a geologist, I cannot explain what is in these pictures.
		This is no moon I have ever learned about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct, Ken?
unidentified		Absolutely correct.
unidentified		He said that he had no Earth model to be able to explain the anomalies and things that he was looking at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, this begins to add substance then, certainly, to your claims, Richard, and so much so, I would think, that at the very least, it ought to be more than a chuckle item at the end of a newscast, and it ought to engender some serious investigation, even by NASA.
unidentified		Unless, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Unless, Art.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We really don't want to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless we don't want to know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm beginning to feel that we're dealing much less with conspiracy, which is a word I'm becoming to really detest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Than with what I call an unconscious unwillingness to shape reality.
		There's an awful lot of people who are comfortable living in their illusions.
		We create the world around us to make us feel more comfortable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the one area, Richard, that I disagree with you in is the effect this information would have on the present scientific and religious paradigms.
		I think it would wreak havoc.
		I know you think everybody's ready.
		They're not.
		I wish you could have been around to get some of the calls I've had from devout Christians who would be horrendously challenged and shaken if your information was validated.
		Now, that's a lot of people in America, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So you're basically saying there's a political reason to keep it quiet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course I am.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we have to get this out on the table.
		You know, people say to me, you know, why wouldn't NASA make this public?
		Wouldn't this be a gold card for NASA?
		Wouldn't it unloose the space program?
		And what you have just said is one of the most important, salient pieces of analysis, which is the motivation.
		In other words, Brookings is alive and well.
		We have not grown up, according to this.
		We really would be devastated.
		There would be tremendous systemic changes, which certain people in positions of power have simply decided we are not going to allow.
		Period.
		End of discussion.
		Which is why it's a giggle item at the end of the evening news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all right.
		Look, you've got these Russian pictures.
		You didn't get a chance to show them at the press conference because now I understand you got caught out of time.
		You had to clear the area.
		But what about getting them up on my internet site?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When I get back to New York, I'm going to be putting all of the images we had at the press club up on your site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, excellent.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean.
		Will there also be some sort of, if nothing else, condensed transcript of what occurred at the press conference?
		And you can get that on the website as well.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Now, Ken, you've got your neck out a couple of miles or more here.
		And how much consideration did you give to going public before you did?
unidentified		Well, fortunately, I'm 53 years old now.
		And at the time, I was probably one of the youngest engineers involved in the program.
		And each time I listen to Richard talk, I realize that that limbs get a little further out there.
		Hopefully there are other people.
		In fact, I know there has to be.
		Just today when I was listening to Richard talk, he was talking about the fact that most of the documentation and stuff, how to build the Apollo 5 and the Saturn V and the spacecrafts has been, I believe you said Richard, has been destroyed or has been retrieved or what have you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The FBI went around the country after Apollo, and they literally called back with blueprints from the contractors, from engineers, from private consultants, and they destroyed them.
		We could not build a Saturn V today.
		You know, if our life depended on it, we would have to reinvent the wheel.
unidentified		A lot of us had the Apollo Operations Hands books or the command and service module, the lunar modules.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, hold it there for just one sec.
		We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll come back to you after the bottom of the hour, Ken, And pursue this.
		Ken Johnston, contractor to NASA, NASA's data and photo documentation supervisor, and Richard Hoagland, back in a moment.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		On this, Somewhere in Time.
		On this, Somewhere in Time.
		On this, Somewhere in Time.
		On this, Somewhere in Time.
		You are listening to Art Bell somewhere in time tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bid you all good morning.
		Richard C. Hoagland's with us, a contractor to NASA, Ken Johnston, who took care of NASA's photo analysis.
		He was actually a photo documentation.
		He was actually a supervisor there.
		And we'll get back to them in just a moment.
		I've got a summary now of the news conference already on the internet.
		That didn't take very long, did it?
unidentified		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell From a transcript of the press conference at the Press Club in Washington, D.C., skipping down to our guest, Mr. Johnston, he's at the podium.
		He's giving his background.
		In 1966, he left the Marines and was a consultant and test pilot with Grumman.
		He amassed 3,000 hours as a pilot himself.
		He was test command pilot at the Johnson Space Center.
		Mr. Johnson is describing photos he saw while he was in charge of the photo archive at the Johnson Space Center.
		He is describing a viewing of one of the films taken by the astronauts on Apollo footage with plumage that was removed from this film within 24 hours mysteriously.
		He was at Johnson through all the missions.
		Mr. Johnston is showing letters verifying that he gave Hoagland the photos of Apollo 14 that he has here at the conference.
		Is that about accurate, sir?
unidentified		Very good.
unidentified		I'm surprised you got it that quick.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Susan was very good.
		This one is from Susan Caraban.
		She's editor of Martian Horizons, who was typing furiously during the whole conference and experiencing a baptism of fire in the IRC chat experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I heard.
		Baptism of fire.
		Okay, again, describing viewing one of the films taken by the astronauts in Apollo footage with plumage that was removed from that film within 24 hours.
		Tell us about that, please.
unidentified		Well, in that particular case, this was Apollo 14, and after we had received the film, right after the astronauts returned to Earth, it had been processed in the NASA photo lab.
		It was my responsibility to put together a private viewing for the chief astronomer.
		That was Dr. Thornton Page and his associate and contributing scientist.
		I took the film over and set it up into what's called a sequence camera.
		It's kind of like one of the gun cameras they use in the military where you can stop, pre-spring, go forward, back up, and zoom in.
		And we were viewing the Apollo 14 footage coming around the back side of the moon as we were approaching a large crater.
		Now, due to the sun angle, on the front side that we'd be looking at, we'd be looking at probably more of a crescent at that point.
		On the back side, then the shadows and the craters were covering about half the crater.
		This particular large crater showed a cluster of about five or six lights down inside the rim and this column or plume or outgassing or something coming up above the rim of the crater where we could see that.
		At that point, Dr. Page had me stop and freeze and back up and go back and forth several times.
		And each time he had paused a second looking at that, and he finally turned to his associates and says, well, isn't that interesting?
		And they all chuckled and laughed.
		And Dr. Page says, continue.
		Well, I finished up that viewing.
		I was told to take it back into NASA bonded storage in the photo lab where the next day I was to check it back out and show it to the rank and file engineers and scientists at Johnson Space Center.
		While we were viewing it the second time, some of my friends sitting next to me was telling me, you can't believe what we saw in the back sediment.
		Where did you see this view as we were approaching the same crater?
		And we went past the crater.
		There was nothing there.
		I stopped the camera, took the film out to examine if anything had been cut out.
		And there was no evidence of anything being cut out.
		I told the audience that we were having technical difficulties.
		Put it back in and finished.
		That afternoon, I ran in and Dr. Pedro at the Lunar Steel Laboratory and asked him what had happened to the lights and the outgassing steam we saw.
		And he kind of grinned, gave a little twinkle in the chuckle.
		He says, there were no lights.
		There's nothing there.
		And he walked away.
		And we were so busy I didn't get a chance to question him again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, this is the kind of thing that it seems to me they cannot ignore.
		Now, during the news conference, Sarah McGlendon, I'm well familiar with Sarah, White House reporter, apparently was there, and she asked who constructed These artifacts, another journalist is wondering why the SETI program appears to be searching for extraterrestrial life, yet ignores their data.
		That's a damn good question.
		Spending what, $100 million with SETI?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, not really.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's not that much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whatever.
		$10 million.
		All right, $10 million.
		And yet here's Richard Hoagland at a press conference with people like Ken Johnson and engineers and others, and they ignore it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I said, I believe, in response, was that the whole premise of SETI is that there are mathematical symbols that would be coming in on radio.
		There'd be coded signals that would differentiate between background radio static and radio telescope and an actual ET signal directed toward the Earth.
		And what we have found in the NASA data is geometric mathematical coded data, not in a radio way, but in pictures and photographs.
		And we actually have found that same data on the Moon in terms of the Clementine data, which we do not have time to get into tonight.
		The whole point of this press conference is there's a whole perspective on the NASA experience that has been restricted from those outside of the agency.
		And when you try to bring it to the ordinary press person or even the interested press person, because they don't have the background, you've got to start at square one.
		Even with two hours, there was not enough time to present all of what we had assembled.
		And we had really winnowed down to the best because we had to present the credentials and the credibility of our presenters to start with.
		Of course.
		Now, Sarah McClendon, you know, this is a person I really admire as one of the few people in the press who still has the old school integrity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Sarah McClendon initially was not interested at all in coming.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When my press people call her up, she says, Mars, Mars, I don't know why we care about Mars.
unidentified		I care about people and stuff here on Earth.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And she really was fighting, and my press person put me on the phone in a conference call.
		In 30 seconds, Art, she agreed to come.
		She said, this is the most important thing I can do.
		She came in a wheelchair this morning.
		She wasn't feeling well.
		She was looking with an eagle eye at these pictures.
		She has now invited me to come back to Washington next week on the 27th and present this data to her group of investigative reporters that she is schooling at the National Press Club.
		And she's even going to take me to dinner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then maybe there has been something significant that has happened.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There has been.
		And what I'm going to ask her to do is to basically, at the next press conference, put the question to Bill Clinton directly.
		Mr. President, why don't you just open these files?
		You said in Belfast that the Air Force was telling you that UFOs don't exist, but you want to know.
		Here is data from a space program that you're now in charge of.
		It didn't happen on your watch, but you, with executive order, can give everyone clemency.
		No blame.
		Nobody sitting in front of Senate hearings.
		Let's just find out what we really have and let's move on.
		And Sarah McClendon is the person I'm going to ask to do this.
		And with more education here in what she's seeing, I know that she's going to agree to do that.
		So we are making progress.
		Now, there's something else I've got to tell Ken, because we're on two different floors of this hotel overlooking the Capitol.
		And this happened before we went on the air, so he does not know this.
		We have a date, Ken, tomorrow afternoon between 4 and 7 to meet with the executive producer of one of the major television network news shows here in Washington to discuss your being interviewed by a major network anchor regarding what we are talking about this evening.
unidentified		Does that mean I'm going out on that rim a little bit working?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how do you react to that, Ken?
unidentified		Does that mean I'm going out on that rim a little bit further?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sounds like it.
		And while we're there, Ken, I want to get back to this.
		Would you like to make a plea for others like yourself, others that were involved in the program, to come?
unidentified		I was going to say before we broke, a lot of us had the Apollo Operations handbooks for the command modules, lunar modules.
		These had the schematics, the drawing, the blueprints.
		I saved a lot of that stuff and put them in boxes, hoping to write my memoirs later on in life.
		And I know there are a lot of people like myself out there that have things that, for one reason or other, decided to pigeon away in the hole.
		And if we could start a public repository for this data that isn't controlled by any agency or government or anything like that, I think it'd be a great opportunity.
		That's why I put my data and material with it's now called the Enterprise Mission Group.
		So I'm hoping that others will come forward and do the same thing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right, I want to make an announcement.
		We announced at the press club that we have changed the name of the Mars mission to the Enterprise mission.
		Now, there's a reason for that.
		Mars is too narrowly focused.
		We now have demonstrable data indicating strongly ancient ruins on two worlds in the solar system.
		I'm beginning to suspect that it's not limited just to that.
		There's other NASA data sets that we've been quietly looking at that are very provocative and troubling if you don't understand that maybe you're looking at artificial stuff as opposed to natural stuff.
		And that will be discussed in future programs that you and I will do and future things that we will publish.
		The point is that we needed a broader focus.
		So I've been thinking for the last week or so as we're building up to this, what are we going to do?
		How do we move the focus and broaden it from Mars to the whole NASA solar system exploration and probing questions on what is really out there?
		And I realized that already the name had been given to us.
		But a few nights ago, Alan Keyes, who was a very interesting person, former ambassador to the UN, running for president, he was in the debate in Dallas with Pat Buchanan and Steve Forbes, I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the reporter asked the only space question in the entire presidential primary season.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He asked each of the participants what they would do if elected president about NASA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the thing that was so striking about Alan Keyes is he looked at the camera and he said in essence, I'm going to paraphrase, he said, Star Trek more exemplifies the NASA that should exist now than NASA does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Matter of fact, he did, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I tried to get from C-SPAN, you know, C-SPAN is becoming my pain in the you-know-what.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We tried to get the tape because I wanted to run that tape to demonstrate in the idiom of the day, the presidential race, to these reporters that, in fact, even the candidates, at least one of them, the bright guy in the group, realizes there's something wrong at NASA, that it's business as usual when you're exploring something which is anything but usual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think NASA feels a pain, or not NASA, but C-SPAN feels a pain in about the same location with your name on it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, so taking a cue from Alan Keyes, I realized that what the Star Trek community had done many years ago, when they overrode NASA's insistence on calling the first space shuttle Constitution, and wrote 400,000 letters, which I must admit I was responsible for engineering, to the White House, to President Ford at that time, to get him to override Jim Fletcher at NASA and to call it Enterprise.
		Succeeded.
		The democratic aspect of grassroots America, real citizens voting with their feet for a space program that was worthy of the name, demanded of the White House and got from a President of the United States the first space shuttle of the fleet named Enterprise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so appropriate it is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So we decided this morning we're going to call this institution we're framing around a real space program to boldly go where someone apparently has gone before.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's a great mission.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, the Enterprise mission.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On behalf of Ken, Richard, if somebody else out there with artifacts and more than memories stored away and photographs, whatever, wants to get hold of you and is willing to come forward, how do they do it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They fax us at 201-271-1703.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Or they can leave a message with the Art Bell website.
unidentified		That's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is rapidly becoming the Enterprise Mission, you know, Starbase 1.
		We're going to make some further arrangements for setting up our own website.
		But in the interim, you're a very interesting way station on the road to the future, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And we very much appreciate what you have done and what Keith Rowland has done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes.
		All right.
		Obviously, the transcript of the press conference exists.
		I've got it in my hand.
		I expect if it's not up there, it will be shortly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, Keith must have worked overtime to get it up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know where this came from.
		It may have come from my own website, for all I know.
		Somebody will let us know.
		So it exists.
		It will get up there.
		And now, your hand up in the air, promising that you will get those Russian photographs that you didn't get a chance to receive.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I may be able to do something from here in Washington because there's a computer sitting here in our hotel room, which a friend of mine, a technician, is coming over with a card tomorrow so I can actually dub discs of images which exist on a mag optical drive that we couldn't access all day today.
		Very frustrating.
		And when I get those, I will motor them over to Keith, and we may be able to actually gather them up before the weekend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the people will get to see what they didn't get to see at the press club.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, they got to see a lot.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They just didn't get to see everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is part of the everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've got you.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any final words to everybody out there about your stepping forward, what you've seen, anything else you want to tell everybody?
unidentified		I guess I'd go back to the old adage, you know, the turtle has to stick his neck out if he's going to get anywhere.
		It's kind of lonesome out on the rim.
		I hope that something else will come forward.
		And I know we're doing the right thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I admire you both.
		Richard, I want to tell you I've got in my hands an Associated Press story that has now run on the wire.
		Guess where?
		In the kickers section.
		As you might expect.
		So, once again.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you some other positive news because I don't want to end on a downer.
		We are winning.
		Boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, you know, we are winning.
		And let me tell you how I know we're winning.
		When we left the press club and went out into the hall, you know, in that frenetic confusion, there were awful, it was a mob scene.
		There were, as I said, almost 20 cameras.
		We could not move for having a camera and a microphone stuck on our face.
		And there were not silly questions.
		There were very serious questions.
		A lot of information has gone out somewhere and is reaching someone.
		And when I got back to the hotel, one of my press people ran down the hall and said, you've got to come here immediately.
		John Holloman is on the phone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		John Holloman is the science reporter, the space reporter for CNN.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was at that point feeling a little bit pissed off at CNN because they did not show up.
		They promised us on the phone they would show up.
		They did not show up.
		So I pick up the phone and I said to John, I said, hi, John.
		I said, Dick Hogan here, I'm a fan of yours.
		And he said, Dick, he says, I'm becoming a fan of yours.
		What in the world is going on?
		Tell me about these pictures.
		And we had a conversation.
		He has agreed that he wants to do a major story on this.
		He wants to do it while Ken and company are still here in Washington at the Washington Bureau, which means booking satellite time.
		We have these huge murals and blow-ups that we have created for the press club that are physical enlargements of photographs several feet across, both in black and white and color, unenhanced and enhanced to compare, that I'll be able to do in the studio.
		And barring that, he said he wants to talk to Ken later at some point, and he wants me to send discs, the same discs I'm going to be sending or the same images electronically to your website, I'm going to be sending to Atlanta to John Holloman.
		So if people want to see this on CNN, you might just give John Holloman a call or send him a facts and encourage him to follow his nose for news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
		Ken, you're a brave man, Richard.
		So are you.
		I want to thank you both for being here this morning.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We are too tired, man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		It's got to be what?
		Coming up on 4 o'clock in Washington.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I have a 9 o'clock interview tomorrow morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
		You both better get to bed.
		And I want to thank you both again for being here.
		The audience was starving for information.
		They'd been teased by all you'd said and I'd said, and then they never got to see it on C-SPAN.
		So I'm glad to be able to get the real story of what occurred out.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, this is just the beginning.
		I think we started the process.
		The reaction of the rank and file and the press score that were there was very positive.
		And Ken, you know, if you question me, you know, just don't be shy.
		The fact that Sarah McClendon was there, that she's invited me back, that she wants to introduce me to more people.
unidentified		Absolutely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of things that are moving.
		We have the big Mo, as George Bush once said.
		And your audience art really deserves some kudos from us because I must say that the calls and the faxes and the solicitations and the good wishes and the feeling that people really cared has been what's kept us going that and a few cups of coffee and some adrenaline.
		So thank you one and all.
		And with that, we will wish you a fine good night from the nation's capital.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good night, Richard.
		And Ken, thank you for coming on the air, tired as you are, and we will no doubt speak with you again.
unidentified		Thank you very much, Art.
unidentified		I enjoyed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, take care of you two.
		Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.
		You wanted to know what went on at the press conference.
		Now you know.
		You might also want to know that the information with regard to the press conference is probably on the website now.
		You let me know.
		The photographs that are coming will be there soon.
		If you wish to get to my website, it is www.artbell.com.
		Once again, it's www.artbell.com.
		Well, that was a lot for you to digest.
		I hope you enjoyed it.
		And again, I want to thank those two for getting up at a very odd hour to do this.
unidentified		The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		More Somewhere in Time coming up.
		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, everybody.
		Thought I owed that last couple of hours to you, so you might know what actually went on, as opposed to the little kicker stories we're getting here and there on the news services.
		And it sounds like there's a lot more to come, and I'm certainly grateful for the information that apparently is on the way to my web page.
		So don't expect it for, I would say, the next 24 hours, but after that, I would suggest to you it'll probably be there.
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		All right, Atlantis was supposed to blast off at 1213.
		Now, I didn't catch it.
		I've got CNN running in the background right now.
		It will dock with Mir.
		One interesting note I thought during the day, CNN reporting, astronaut Shannon Lucid, gee, is Shannon going to space, is going to spend 142 days on the Mir space station.
		The Russians, the Russians said, gee, we're glad she's on the way because, quote, women like to clean, end quote.
		And I thought, you know, geez, what an insult.
		I mean, here comes an American woman, an astronaut, who's going to be there for 142 days, and their only comment is, oh, cool.
		Women like to clean.
		We'll be glad to see her.
		And I wonder how many women are a little put off by that.
		All right, look, I think clearly one of the biggest stories of the day today came from England, and I reported it to you last night in some great amount of detail.
		And lo and behold, about an hour after I got off the air, CNN began running it as their lead story, and it has blown up all day long.
		It involves the fact, and I told you this yesterday, late in the show, that in England they're talking about the possibility of slaughtering 11 million cows.
		There is panic in England.
		It's called Mad Cow Disease.
		British officials say the country's 11 million beef cattle may have to be slaughtered to halt mad cow disease.
		France and Belgium have banned imports of British beef and cattle as panic spread among consumers at home and abroad.
		I'm reading to you from Reuters.
		British health officials say scientists have found a likely link between mad cow disease and its fatal human equivalent.
		In other words, they are concerned that it has jumped species, but they insist the chances of becoming ill from beef is minimal now that safety measures have been implemented to prevent the disease from entering the human food chain.
		They've got 10 cases so far in humans.
		Symptoms are dementia, loss of muscle control, loss of speech, possible blindness, and then death.
		Death, a sure bet, within 3 to 12 months, there is no cure.
		So there is beginning to be certainly a European and nearly worldwide panic, and they may end up slaughtering 11 million cattle.
		Now, for years, the British scientists insisted there is no chance that this disease will jump species.
		Famous last words.
		And that phrase particularly applies here.
		Famous last words.
		From Scott up in Butte Creek Farm, Oregon, listening to KEX HiART, mad cow disease?
		What next?
		I'm sure the vegetarians of the world are feeling pretty smug right about now.
		A doctor on national radio earlier said, if you combined Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, and Lou Gehrig's disease, you'd have the equivalent of mad cow disorder.
		He also said this disease is caused by a new type of life form, get this, that is even smaller and less complex than a virus.
		This really gives a whole new meaning to a Big Mac attack.
		P.S. The doctor's information came from today's New York Times, and I would like to stress that there is no indication at all that this mad cow disease has infected any U.S. cattle yet.
		I repeat, there is no indication that this mad cow disease has infected any U.S. cattle.
		The problem in England is the gestation period for the onset of symptoms is sometimes eight to ten years after ingestion or infection.
		And I saw a British health official interviewed earlier tonight on CNN, and they asked him point blank, what could this mean?
		What are we in for?
		And he said, well, it could be that we'll only have these cases.
		Or it could be we'll have several dozen more cases.
		Or we could have a complete epidemic on our hands.
		We don't know yet.
		The interviewer asked him, could it be as serious as AIDS?
		He said, well, I can't lie to you.
		The answer has to be yes.
		It could be.
		Anybody for a salad?
		And as my friend up in Oregon suggested, I would imagine the vegetarians out there are having a field day with this, as you might well expect.
		I've had no luck at all with my hand.
	You all know about my new cat, Comet.
	Well, Comet proved to be a flashing, streaking ball of orange with a long tail earlier today.
unidentified		I'll tell you what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When Comet came home from the doctor, Comet was drugged.
		Nevertheless, Comet allowed me, with great protest and some purring, to pick him up.
		He is a feral cat.
		I tried very hard earlier this morning to make friends with Comet.
		And when I reached to pick Comet, reach down and pick Comet up, he turned around and bit the hand that's been trying to feed him.
		He didn't bite me a little bit.
		He bit me big time.
		In fact, those of you who have Vidian, I would be happy to show you what my hand looks like.
		My hand has been through, and naturally, you know, he would bite me in exactly the place where my thumb had been sore previously, or at least right next to it.
		So now I have not only a sore thumb, but I have a hand that has been turned into dog meat.
		Or would that be cat meat?
		So now Comet occupies his own little space in our second bathroom with the doors closed.
		Boy, I'll tell you what, this cat nailed me.
		Ooh, ooh, am I sore?
		And I've, of course, done everything for it.
		immediately put to proxide on it all the rest of it and i don't i don't know But by man, I'll tell you, my cat, my feral, wild cat, lived up to his name and nailed me, just really laid into me as hard as, you know, if you can imagine a cat biting as hard as a cat could bite.
		Obviously scared.
		I shouldn't have tried to pick him up.
		But I figured, since I did the previous day, why I'd be able to today.
		That was a bad, bad decision.
		Bad decision.
		All right, so you're updated now on what's going on in Britain.
		You know, I don't mean to question conventional science, but I'm telling you folks right now, when they tell you something cannot happen, oh, it can't jump species, there's no health concerns, take it with a grain of salt.
		And I mean, or two or three or ten grains of salt.
		Anybody for a salad.
		There will be a vote on the assault weapons ban later today.
		Bob Dole does not think that he's got the votes.
		As a matter of fact, he probably does not.
		And even if he does, the president has promised a veto.
		That's a no-brainer.
		But I suppose it will serve some purpose to get it at least to the president.
		Imagine, if you will, it's your first time flying.
		You know me in flying.
		I love the idea of flying, and I have tried various forms of it, with various forms of physical injury as a result, all my life.
		In Washington State earlier today, imagine it's your first flying lesson.
		You take off with your instructor.
		You get up in the air.
		Your heart's pumping.
		It's your first time at the stick.
		You're about to get your first opportunity to hold that stick for a moment.
		And then your pilot keels over in your lap with a heart attack.
		You're only pilot.
		It happened to a man named Leland Capps up in Washington earlier today.
		The control tower tried to talk Leland down to a safe landing, and he almost made it.
		He was going up and down and sideways and every other way, but Leland with the poor pilot, who, by the way, is dead of that heart attack, made not what I would call a landing, but something that would more approach a controlled crash.
		Leland, however, lived through it.
		Now, I would ask you, if you were up there taking a lesson, you're first, and your pilot had a heart attack and fell over dead, do you think you would A, try to land the plane yourself, or B, promptly have your own heart attack?
		And I'm not sure which my answer would be A or B. I don't know which I do.
		Taiwan is defiant on the eve of its historic presidential election, standing firm in its war of nerves with China, and buoyed by a fresh sympathetic gesture from us, the U.S. Taiwan's foreign minister,
		Frederick Xin, says that Taipei will not make any concessions to Beijing, but he says Taiwan would be willing to return to dialogue with Beijing once the Chinese have completed menacing military exercises, said, quote, they return to their sanity when they do.
		In Washington, the Senate passed a resolution deploring China's action and suggesting that if action on our part is required, the President first check please with Congress.
		The UAW strike has been settled.
		The 17-day strike that idled over 160,000 workers finally settled.
		That's good news.
		The House has passed an immigration bill, very much watered down from the original, however.
		Hillary Clinton has defended her role, said she didn't really have anything at all to do with the firing of the Travelgate people, or the Travel Office people that resulted in the Travelgate business.
		And tonight we will continue our what-ifs, because they are so much fun.
		And here are yet a few more.
		Hey, Art, I've got some what-ifs for you.
		What if China uses a low-kiloton warhead on Taiwan?
		Well, my answer would be, we need a new Bob Crane.
		Two, what if the U.S. underestimates China's military and they're not as backward as we think?
		Well, then we might need a new LA.
		What if Russia sold China long-range ICBMs for much-needed cash?
	Well, then we might need a new Chicago and New York.
	What if China has more than 100 ICBMs secretly hidden?
	Then we might need a new PROMP.
	What if China launches those missiles at us?
	Duck and cover.
	What if China encases their nuclear warheads in cobalt?
	Oh boy, this just gets worse and worse.
	What if they use mass biological weapons?
	What if the U.S. and China exchange hundreds of nuclear weapons?
	This just gets worse and worse.
	His what-ifs deteriorate to total nuclear, global thermonuclear war.
	And we can only hope that something like that does not occur.
	All right.
unidentified		right in the middle of whatever it is we're going to be doing this morning getting to the phones in just one moment You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		Coast to Coast AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		Yes, it was an interesting program tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, somewhere the information's got to be properly presented, and so with so much frustration out there, I felt like I owed the audience.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		And I didn't think C-SPAN or CNN was going to show it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess, according to Richard, C-SPAN was there and apparently got some film now.
		Whether they put it on or not is another question.
		CNN, John Holloman, I guess, is going to do an interview, so maybe it's just beginning.
unidentified		Yeah, maybe.
unidentified		Hey, can I say hi to somebody else here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I suppose.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		I want to say hi to my coworker, Wade.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Wade.
		All right.
		That's it.
		Hey, Wade.
		I really just called to say, hey, Wade.
		How you doing, Wade?
		You're not supposed to do that, you know.
		But it seems like everybody does.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Is this art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good guess.
unidentified		Oh, sorry, Art.
unidentified		First time caller art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I've been listening to you the last couple of nights, and one of the things you've repeatedly mentioned and apparently had a lot of calls on from Christians is that what you've been talking about doesn't is not consistent with either Christian faith or biblical model or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or that it would certainly challenge a great deal of me.
unidentified		Here's the thing.
		I've been an evolutionist all my life.
		For 46 years I was an evolutionist, and it bothered me for years, for years.
		Now, you saw the special on NBC, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, that's just the tip of the iceberg in the research that I've been doing ever since I became a creationist over the last three and a half years.
		In fact, the one-hour version of that same special that you could buy if you wanted it, but it was not on the air, had additional material.
		It also included additional material, including a hammer, which was considered to be a pre-flood hammer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pre-flood hammer.
unidentified		And it's made of iron that is completely flawless and will not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, I want to hear more of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm at a break, so you're going to have to hold.
unidentified		Okay, hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good, good.
unidentified		This is going to put me on hold, huh?
		I'm the one who puts people on hold around here.
		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		Coast AM from March
		Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		21st, 1996.
		Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		Premier Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it figures.
		Here come the facts.
		Art, I was bitten by a feral cat last December.
		I had to have rabies shots.
		Doctor told me cats can carry the rabies virus and do quite often.
		Don't worry about the cows.
		Worry about the cat bite.
		Nomad.
		Well, you've got to bear in mind that the previous day we had had this cat to the vet was tested for rabies and everything else in the world and given shots.
		But, yeah, you know, I might come down with mad cat disease anytime here.
		Listen carefully.
		It should be very entertaining.
		I'll start to meet Al probably and screech and jump across the room.
		Art, I'm in my mid-20s.
		I've neglected getting my will together to this point in my life.
		You know, that young immortal complex.
		Anyway, I've been thinking what to leave and who to leave it to upon my demise and what info I need to pass on to those when I'm no longer here.
		Since we are a part of your life, my question is, have you made a play-if-I-Die date for us?
		No, but I had to do that, huh?
		Play-if-I-Die.
		I just wanted to let you know we're getting very close to the baseball season.
		I know that'll make you smile.
		Go Cleveland.
		It's true, we are getting close to baseball again.
		The horrid sport returns like the plague, like the mad cow virus.
		Art Unsolved Mysteries is going to do a piece on the death of Vince Foster tomorrow night, Friday, 8 p.m.
unidentified		Pacific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't miss that.
		Art, I wouldn't worry too much about those pesky, gloating vegetarians.
		Someday I'm sure they will all come down with mad carrot disease.
		I see it now.
		No.
unidentified		Oh, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, that can happen.
		Fall down dead from beta-carotene poison.
		Or maybe they'll all gain bionic eyesight.
		And the joke will be on us meat-eaters.
		Oh, well, Keith in Coco Country, San Diego.
		Oh, I've got a caller on hold, don't I?
		Sorry about that.
		You're back on the air.
unidentified		Oh, thank you, Art.
		We were talking about a hammer.
		First of all, the NBC special was entitled The Mysterious Origins of Man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And that was on February 25th, see 7 p.m. here on the Pacific coast.
		Now, for that special of the 60 minutes on broadcast, it was actually, the video portion of it was actually 46 minutes.
		Bill Coate, the producer of that, which I spoke with actually about a month before the special aired, because he sent me a preview copy of the program back in December.
		People that are in the field that are studying origins and that kind of thing.
		Well, he also mentioned in his press release that he has a 60-minute version of the same program, which is for the same price, $19.95.
		And in that press release, it talked about the hammer, which I have a replica of, which was discovered in 1939 down in Puloxy River in Texas in the Cretaceous sandstone, right in and among dinosaur footprints and that kind of thing.
		Now, let me get back to the hammer in just a minute because this will blow your mind.
		Please.
		But in the special, you will remember, in the special that we saw, you'll remember a couple of statements that were made by scientists.
		And they kind of were just passed off because, you know, in a one-hour special, they're trying to cover a lot of ground here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		And so he was just hitting the tip of the iceberg.
		There is so much in this area.
		Of course, two scientists and two authors repeatedly came up that wrote this book, Forbidden Archaeology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Which, you know, really is forbidden science because this information is being prevented from coming out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		Okay, now, and you've been talking about that a little bit.
		Okay, now there was a couple of statements that were made in the special.
		One was just before the end of the special, one scientist said, talking about radiometric dating, because evolution requires many millions of years.
		And he's made the statement that recent work with radiometric and radioisotopic dating has been showing that maybe the millions of years are only thousands of years because of errors in the method.
		Many, many errors and assumptions and errors in the method.
		And that statement was made on the special.
		And it kind of was passed off.
		That was toward the end.
		But then another statement was made by a scientist, as you recall, who said he's convinced that mankind has amnesia.
		Okay, now, I've been hearing people talk about that maybe there's been many cycles of high-tech and low-tech over the years, but we don't have any proof of that.
		The biblical model actually states that before the flood, mankind and civilization was very far advanced.
		In the beginning, man was created in the image of God, etc., etc.
		And all the evidence we're finding in the geological record shows not only do dinosaurs and man live together, which is correspondent with the biblical model, because they were all created together in the beginning, but also that what we're finding in the geological record, both in arid climates in rock fossils, and also, though, under the ice in areas, are
		large trees and plants that, some of which are the same species of those we have today, but are anywhere from five to 50 times larger than they are today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all I can say is if man and dinosaur were created together, and there's evidence that Sure.
		That they were here.
		The thing is this.
		Then, sir, pause a moment, please.
		Man must have felt as a mouse feels to a cat.
unidentified		Well, not necessarily, because the Bible says that in the beginning, before things went awry, that there was no discord between man and nature.
unidentified		That only became after mankind fell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me put it to you this way.
		All right, sir.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		But let me put it to you this way.
		Tryanosaurus Rex was not a vegetarian.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was not a vegan.
		Tryanosaurus Rex definitely was your basic meat eater.
		Man is basically meat.
		Many things.
		But to a Tryanosaurus, we would have been sort of a bite-size appetizer for a really big man, as opposed to big man.
		Here is a story appearing or running in the Arizona Republic used by New York Times news service clients.
		NASA rejects scientists' findings of lunar ruins.
		The last thing NASA wanted to be doing Thursday was responding to claims that an ancient civilization left artifacts on the moon.
		The space agency would have preferred to talk instead about its plans to explore Mars or about an educational campaign that will be unveiled today by Apollo 13 astronaut Jim Lovell to rekindle public support for space research.
		No such luck.
		Instead, National Aeronautics and Space Administration officials found themselves responding to accusations that they have suppressed evidence of lunar ruins of a lost race.
		I've got another Associated Press article here, so I'll tell you what it is.
		It's beginning to break.
		I'll be damned.
		It's beginning to break on the national wires.
		Well, that's a little bit of progress, folks.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning to you.
unidentified		Yeah, glad to speak to you.
unidentified		I was just listening to what the gentleman was saying a moment ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And what it is is last week when Richard Hoagland was on before, I turned this tape over to my pastor just because he has an interest in science and so forth.
		And he saw something much, much deeper in this.
		To make a long story short, it goes back to a, I think, called the gap theory, which talks about Satan and his ruining the earth in a pre-adamic time, you know, before Adam was here, which would explain the dinosaurs, you know, quite literally, because they would have been here long before Adam, obviously.
		But listen, I was looking through the Bible here, or looking through what's called a concordance, and I found references to crystal.
		Here's the what if.
		What if these things were made by angelic beings before the creation of mankind?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's as good a what-if as anybody else's.
unidentified		Yeah, well, here's a quick thing right out of the book of Ezekiel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, please don't quote.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		Well, that's fine.
		I just want to say there are references to crystal and glass in the Bible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you.
		Anybody's welcome to paraphrase, but I don't allow Bible precise quoting.
		You know, no scripture quoting.
		We'll get that in church.
		But any discussion of religion is welcome on this program.
		Or if you want to paraphrase what it says in the Bible, that's fine, too.
		I just resist and always have precise quotes.
		Oh, this is interesting.
		Here's a little article from the London Telegraph.
		Most beef eaters already exposed to mad cow agent.
		Great.
		By David Fletcher, health services correspondent.
		Most people who ate beef before the beginning of the mad cow disease epidemic will have been exposed to the agent which causes it, doctors say.
		In a report on possible links between human and animal forms of the disease, they say that by the time the first clinical cases were recognized in 1987, many thousands of cattle were already incubating bovine, well, I'm going to call it BSE.
		And a great majority of these will have been eaten.
		Dr. William Patterson, consultant in public health medicine, and Dr. Stephen Daylor, consultant medical microbiologist at Burnley General Hospital say, in the Journal of Public Health Medicine, I might add, that there can be no dispute that the human food chain has become contaminated with BSE.
		But they're still uncertain, technically, whether it can cause CJD.
		That's the human form of it.
		I'll tell you, this is really a frightening development.
		And the people in England are scared.
		Well, I remember eating some beef when I was in France.
		I sure hope it wasn't imported English beef.
		But doesn't matter.
		I probably have mad cat disease by now, anyway.
unidentified		Wow!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		This is Leonard's little sister.
		And this is Leonard's little sister?
		Is this Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, turn your radio off, dear.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or tell Leonard to, one of the two.
unidentified		Okay, well, that's a pseudonym for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've still got it on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you don't turn that radio off, I'm going to have to leave the length.
unidentified		Okay, I was just listening the other day, the Christian that called you, and the reason the Christians try to talk to you with Scripture is so that you'll understand what the Bible means.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's fine, but that is one of my ground rules on this process.
unidentified		I know, I know.
		I love to hear you talk about the cat, and I think you're a wild and witty guy, but there's connections between Richard Holdland, what he's saying about space, God and the pyramids at Giza, what harp is going on.
		All this is connected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure it's all connected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may be.
unidentified		Well, it's just the handwriting on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be the glyphs on the cliff, dear.
unidentified		You know, you make me mad and then you make me laugh, and then I forgive you.
		Oh, well, all right.
		But there's more to what Richard Hoagland's saying also, and I don't think he realizes what he's dabbling in, and I think he's sort of getting into his own glory there a little bit.
		And Osh invited me to dinner and all that.
		He's a bright man, he's onto something, but he's going to be like, he's making himself sort of like a stooge for these people who are just blocking him out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know what that means.
		You struggle along, you try to get something out, and then you get accused of being a stooge.
		I don't think he's a stooge.
		Now, I know exactly what it is you're saying.
		You just didn't want to say it all the way.
		I've had lots of messages from Christian organizations suggesting that investigating the possibility of mankind having been here for this period of time is an evil thing.
		And there's lots of faxes going about the Christian community saying, with respect to programs like the mysterious origins of man, the investigative path of Richard Hoagland and others, scared to death of it.
		Look, I more than anybody understand the paradigms that are being threatened here.
		I think Richard does not grasp because he is not involved in as deeply as I am looking at and listening to a cross-section of the American public.
		So I understand the paradigms that are challenged, the careers, and the basic forces of nature that are being tampered with politically and religiously.
		I understand it.
unidentified		Richard doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		GMX is a magnetic water conditioner that absolutely works.
		That's all I can tell you.
		It works, and it works very well indeed.
		Thank you.
		It's a remarkable, remarkable product.
		It conditions water by not allowing minerals to stick to pipes, to stick on your car as a white spot after you've washed it, or your glassware, or your water heater, where it'll cost you a couple, $300 a year just to heat water.
		So there's GMX.
		It'll cure all that.
		And as a secondary benefit, it will let the minerals get through so that when you drink a glass of water, you get to drink the minerals because you need minerals.
		We all do.
		I'm telling you, it works.
		It's been in my home now years.
		And so I know.
		I ought to know.
		But, no doubt, you're either in or from Missouri.
		So we've got a 90-day money-back guarantee for you.
		Use it for 90 days.
		If it doesn't work, you return and get your money back.
		That's all there is to it.
		Pretty good deal, huh?
		Call 1-800-4060-GMX.
		That's 1-800-4060-GMX.
		Somebody on video is saying, is that your left hand?
		No, it's my right hand.
		The same one that was ruined by having its thumb turned backwards, now is in the middle of being infected with mad cat disease.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
		Coast to Coast AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to give you my website address again.
		The news conference materials, apparently there now.
		The photographs to come, we hope, in the next 24 hours.
		If you have a computer or a friend with a computer, it is www.artbell.com.
		It's easy, right?
		www.artbell.com.
		If you can go to a web crawler, just enter Art Bell, A-R-T-B-E-L-L, and it will lead you in the right direction.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Art.
		Yes.
		Yeah, there's Frank over here in New Mexico, a truck driver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Frank.
unidentified		This fellow that you was talking to earlier about that hammer encased in rock.
		Dr. Carl Ball.
		I don't know if you've ever heard of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I have not.
unidentified		At Creation Evidence Institute in Glenrose, Texas has that hammer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He has the hammer?
unidentified		Yeah, uh-huh.
		He's the one that put all this stuff together.
		I've got a bunch of his tapes and stuff at home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He probably got it from Trini Lopez.
unidentified		No, but this is not what I called you about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
unidentified		Have you been outside tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have not gone to look yet.
unidentified		Oh, you know the comet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know the comet, yes.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, I was just outside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you been outside yet, sir?
unidentified		Yeah, uh-huh.
		I was coming in from New Mexico.
		I was about 30 miles west of Roswell, and I pulled over.
		And I looked up, and I seen what looked like a star with a cloud over it.
		So I got my binoculars out and looked at it, and you can see the trail from it real good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I'm headed out then.
unidentified		Okay, just look straight up, face the east, look straight up, and then look off to your right about one o'clock, and you'll see a real bright star.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And then just east of that star, northeast, you'll see what looks like a star with a cloud over it, and then you can see it real good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		And the comet is becoming brighter and brighter and brighter and brighter.
		This is the Japanese comet.
		And it looks like it's going to live up to the expectations for it.
		So it should be quite a sight.
		It'll be nice to see before mad cat disease descends on me.
		I'll tell you.
		No good deed goes unpunished.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Did you receive the two articles I sent you, one about AIDS and cows and one about the hemoglobin?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I believe I did, as a matter of fact.
unidentified		I wanted to tell you that I have just about all the information you'd be interested in on mad cow disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'm very serious.
		I did a lot of research on it out of the British journal Science.
		I got it at the library.
		And I've got lots of it.
		I've just got to dig it up.
		I think I explained to you.
		I've got boxes of stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, it's pretty awful.
		That's all I've got to say.
unidentified		Well, I just think, I thought this is very much of a cover-up, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, obviously it was.
		They will claim a lack of knowledge.
		They will claim that, why, we didn't know that it was so widespread.
		They will say, well, we thought that it could not jump species.
		They will say lots of things.
		But it could be, and we need to pray on this one, folks, that it is not what it may be.
		And what it may be is AIDS or worse.
		For thousands and thousands and thousands of people in England, they may be about to slaughter 11 million cattle.
		It's just, it's a nightmare.
		But you know what?
		I'm sorry to say it is a consistent nightmare.
		With so much going on today, it is, indeed, the quickening.
unidentified		We'll be back.
		The trip back in time continues with Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM.
		more somewhere in time coming up.
		We will find no one that says they put you.
		Strange world designate foolish people.
		I never dreamed that I need someone I never dreamed that I need
		someone I never dreamed that I need
		someone You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we'll get back to all of this, previous civilizations, religion, Hoagland, all the rest of it, in just a moment.
unidentified		Shag!
		Shag!
		you you somewhere in time with our bell continues courtesy of premier networks West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Gene in Buena Park, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Gene.
unidentified		I spoke to you before.
unidentified		I was the one that was stationed in Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And I have a telescope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Well, tonight, after hearing your program, I spun through the stations because I got a remote and I can click right through the stations real quick.
		Sure.
		On Channel 11, they showed a brief picture, a couple of pictures, and at the end of it...
		Into the news program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They showed pictures of what?
unidentified		Of some of the structures that was on the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they did?
unidentified		Yeah, and I recorded it.
unidentified		So I got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good for you.
unidentified		And they kind of knocked his testimony down a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well.
unidentified		Yeah, they said it didn't happen.
		And that was it.
		Boom.
		And then he ended the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here are the pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It didn't happen, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Oh, I know better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm glad you got to see the photographs anyway.
unidentified		Yeah, I saw part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend.
unidentified		Channel 11.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		Sure enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to hear.
		Obviously, Richard got a lot more coverage than he thought he got, or we thought he got.
		I mean, I've seen articles here now on AP and all kinds of articles, apparently worldwide coverage.
		So this ballgame is not over yet, folks.
		I'm glad that we were able to bring you this substantial update tonight.
		Very pleased indeed to have been able to do that.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is John in Pasadena, California, KNBC country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, John.
unidentified		I need to find out something real quick from you.
		Sure.
		I'm what you would call an American native, what I call an American Indian, and I do American Indian craft work.
		Well, I know where to send letters, but where would I send a package if I wanted to send you a gift of a piece of beadwork?
		To the absolutely.
		Okay, fine.
		I wanted to ask you something.
		I've been a parapsychologist for 35 years now, and I've read practically everything Brad Steiger has done, and something's starting to bother me.
		In one of his latest books, The Rainbow Conspiracy, right at the first of the book, he mentions something that is a little weird even for him.
		That supposed, mind you, ex-NASA scientists said that there are underground bases where the government is mixing human parts with a kind of liquid for the graze to eat.
		Have you talked to him about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Human mush.
unidentified		Have you ever seen about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Human mush, yes, absolutely.
unidentified		Well, you have heard about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've served like breakfast food for the graze, sir.
unidentified		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they've got to eat too.
unidentified		What do you think about this?
unidentified		Do you think that the government is working with the graze, or do you think it's still just a rumor?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
		Until you've discovered the nature of my sense of humor, I guess I ought to be careful.
		I've never heard of any such thing.
		Mixing humans with.
		I was just kidding.
		I know of no such thing.
		I don't know where people get this kind of thing.
		Underground bases where they're turning humans into mush and breakfast food for greys.
unidentified		Oh, gee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Note, hi, Art.
		I'm a Christian, and there is no question that the Bible only gives a hint as to what's happened before Adam was created in this present history.
		For if the universe is indeed billions of years old, who knows what other civilizations and in what plants they could have lived on?
		Planets, he meant to say.
		I have the gifts of Hoagland, and there's something on the moon and Mars.
		That's GIS, actually.
		We need to explore it until we find the answer.
		P.S., I saw your hand on Vidian.
		You sure got tore up.
		Yes, I sure did, and it sure is swelling up, too.
		As I said, no good deed goes unpunished.
		Okay, back to the lines.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, this is Don from Deacon, Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Don.
unidentified		Yeah, you know when you were talking about the low sperm count last week?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do, yes.
unidentified		Well, I heard a number of years ago that the growth hormones that they were giving to cows were causing testicular cancers, making men more feminine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Have you heard anything about that?
		Yes.
		Yeah, it's kind of scary what they've done to our food.
		You can't eat anything nowadays.
		It's a bunch of crap.
		Well, all the food is just crap.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you a vegetarian?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not?
unidentified		No, I'm not.
		I eat beef.
		But, you know, look what they're doing.
		It's insecticide and pesticide and herbicide.
		It's all leading up to suicide and homicide and genocide.
		It's really sick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you.
		I don't automatically dismiss that.
		Look, I think that what we eat, the food we eat, contributes to what we are.
		Garbage in, garbage out.
		It's one more possibility.
		There's no question about it.
		One more possibility.
		With regard to the way we act, to our social degeneration?
		Sure.
		You can't rule anything out.
		You really can't.
		And I say this in all sincerity, with respect for science and those who practice it, a lot of times they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
		And they've got to take their words and eat their words.
		A lot of good that frequently does to people who have consumed British beef, for example.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, R. Bill, this is Brian from Federal A. Hi, Brian.
		Hey, I got a couple comments here.
		And the first one's on a lesser note here.
		Sure.
		Do you know if HAARP is really planning on powering up their system this weekend?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I hear.
		As a matter of fact, tonight, really, is what I've heard, Friday night.
		HAARP should be underway.
unidentified		I got an uneducated warning for Leonard and all those other select antenna users out there dialing in on your antenna this weekend might be hazardous to your health.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nah, they don't have to worry about it.
		Okay, it's in the broadcast band.
		That did bring up a very interesting subject, and that was you could build a select antenna for those very low frequencies.
		Granted, it would be gigantic, but you could do it.
		And it would be interesting to fool with an inductive coupler for the brain.
		It might be dangerous.
		You might cook yourself, but it might work the other way around.
		Maybe it would amplify your brain waves, and you could win the next presidential election or something.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Another comment here on the whole Richard Hoagland and response to him and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You know, I don't think the question is, obviously I kind of think the way you do.
		I don't think the question is, is it the truth or not?
		Can we handle it or not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Challenging the whole paradigm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		You know, as a religious factor, I go to church once in a while and that.
		And I just, you know, no one knew our Lord, our Creator, better than Adam.
		If you want to go by the Bible.
		And the first thing he did is disobeyed a direct command.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
unidentified		And he ate from the fruit of the tree.
		And it wasn't until then that we were able to learn from our mistakes.
		We were given the opportunities to go on.
		And I believe the Lord loves us so much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what?
		Sir, you've got to think about it this way.
		We haven't learned anything.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if Sean and Dougherty handed me an apple, I'd eat.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Be all over, all over again.
unidentified		Well, it's like, have you seen Star Trek?
		It was an episode a while back, and they got into a time continuing.
		They went through there, and they wrecked into another spaceship, and they had to do it over and over and over and over again.
		And they died each time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that one.
unidentified		Each time they learned a little bit from the past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And each time they finally learned from their mistakes, and they were able to learn from that to where not to think logically, but to take what they've learned and go on and live.
unidentified		Live on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, sir, since I've been a baby, you know, my favorite food has been the hamburger.
unidentified		Yeah.
		You're right.
		We don't learn from our mistakes, but I think the world, our nation needs to be weaned.
		You know, if the information is true from what Hoagland is saying, and which I won't believe until I actually see it laid down in front of me, right?
		If it is true, I think we need to be weaned into it.
		It can't just be like the government's not going to let us just watch themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call, so it will come slowly.
		Now, there were some pretty good things heard about the press following up.
		Sarah McLendon is going to follow up.
		A number of the major networks are now going to follow up.
		So the ball game is not over.
		I mean, you folks know how slowly baseball goes, right?
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Oh, hi, Art.
		This is Pete in Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Pete.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
unidentified		Oh, another great show that I can't get to sleep because of.
unidentified		Oh, I'm watching, while I'm listening to you, the CBS Up to the Minute News, and they've been showing videotapes from England of cows trembling and falling over and people being hospital beds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like, what's next?
unidentified		Yeah, really.
		They had video clips from the Hoagland Conference on, too.
		Did they?
		And they even had a computer graphic, like, generated from an Amiga computer showing the dome, the spire, and the glass castle or whatever it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, was this on the CBS network or your affiliate?
unidentified		That was on the ABC affiliate locally at the 6 o'clock hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		So things are going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Things are going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's true, Pete.
unidentified		You know, I'm seeing a couple of patterns here.
		One's really interesting.
		You remember a movie from the late 60s called The First Men in the Moon was a British film of the H.G. Wells story?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did see that.
unidentified		Now, you had these creatures in the moon, these Selenites, who were spookily resembled the creatures that Whitley Striever has on his communion book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They probably ought to be called moonies.
unidentified		Yeah, and they had craters.
		They were living in craters in the moon that were covered with glass.
		And it's kind of like, is life imitating art now?
		The kind of pattern seems to be showing up here.
		You have H. G. Wells writing a story almost a hundred years ago and now we're discovering all sorts of strange things going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
unidentified		And another thing, there was another story, a canticle for Leibelwitz.
		I'm wondering, Art, if you're not going to be canonized one day before you leave this earth.
		Saint Arthur I, perhaps?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, come on.
unidentified		And if you are, I want to bid for your thumb as a relic.
unidentified		I'm, you know, you're not using it any longer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A pickled thumb.
		All right, sir.
		Yeah, thank you.
		That's great.
		Canonized.
		Pickled thumb.
		Put on display somewhere.
		I have not had luck with this hand.
		I have just not had luck with this hand.
		But it figures.
		I mean, it's my right hand.
		It's the one I use.
		And if it's not a thumb, then it's a cat.
		This cat really got me.
		I mean, you guys have no idea.
		It's like, I'll count them for you.
		One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve.
		Thirteen total puncture marks.
		Punctures.
		Serious.
		Deep punctures.
		13 of them.
		Now, you would think that I would be willing to quit after half that number, but it happened in a flash.
		Like, I grabbed the cat, he turned around and sunk his teeth in, and how stupid is it?
		Three seconds later, you know, I realized I had been bitten, but three seconds later, as he's trying to get away, because of course I dropped him when he bit me.
		Normal human reaction.
		I grabbed him again, and he bit me again.
		now that's stupid First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hello.
		Oh, hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
unidentified		Oh, pretty good.
unidentified		God, I've been trying for the last two hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're here now.
unidentified		Well, a couple of things.
		I am Catholic, and it's hard to say.
		I mean, I believe in UFOs.
		I believe in aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		I've seen a UFO before.
		My mom has seen one.
		My daughter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I believe in UFOs.
		I saw a UFO, unidentified flying object.
		But I don't believe necessarily in aliens.
		I haven't seen those.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I haven't seen them either.
unidentified		But what I've always, well, I don't know, from where I'm coming from, God supposedly created all these planets, and we can't be the only ones living.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think I believe that.
unidentified		Yeah, there's got to be someone else out there somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine there is, yes.
		That does not translate to they have been here or they're making human soup out of us down in underground bunkers or something.
		All right.
		Well, thank you very much.
		You know, people misinterpret a lot of what I say and do, and they generally translate a lot of the material that I have on the air into my belief system.
		Well, it just isn't necessarily so.
		I am a person who searches for truth wherever it may lead, and I have not found the end of the path with regard to aliens.
		I have no idea whether there are aliens.
		I have no absolute proof there are, whether they've ever been here or are here now.
		I don't.
		I present people who talk about it, who deliver evidence, who deliver artifacts, who deliver testimony.
		But until I lay my hands on a gray, or I get to run my hand over their rugged little reptilian skin, I'm not going to know for sure.
		And that applies to just about everything I go after on this program.
		Just because I investigate it does not and should not, in your mind or anybody else's, translate to, I believe in the following.
		I'll tell you when I believe in something.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Charlie, liberal in California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have certain beliefs regarding you.
unidentified		You have certain beliefs regarding me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Two points.
unidentified		Let me just say, first of all, that this crude attempt by the Republicans to install the gun ban, I think, is absolutely terrible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't even brought it up.
		It's not even worth talking about.
		You know why?
		Because, number one, I didn't even think they had the votes.
		Number two, even if they did, the president has already promised a veto.
unidentified		Well, you know, just the fact that they would do that disturbs me, and it bothers me, and Well, I think it shows you where the Republicans are going anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what, Charlie?
		Representative, since you've brought it up, Representative after Representative has said on the floor, look, these weapons are no different than any other semi-automatic weapons.
		The only difference is the way they look.
unidentified		Well, let me say this once and for all.
unidentified		So Newt Gingrich gets it through a thick skull.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Forget, Newt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You tell us so we can get it through our skulls, Trump.
unidentified		Those guns are banned forever.
		It will never, ever be overridden.
		Not by any president, Republican, because it is just not political.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, not in the Dole administration.
unidentified		Absolutely not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not when Bob Dole gets in there.
unidentified		I don't think Bob Dole will override it either.
		Let me say, lastly, that your guest that you had on, he gets a lot of criticism, but I want to say that I think from listening to him, he seems to be an extremely intelligent guy.
		I happen to disagree with him.
		Personally, I feel that societies probably should be separated.
		Meaning that the best, the greatest thing that God ever did is separate technological societies by hundreds of light years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you believe it could be?
unidentified		I think it could be, but I'll tell you something.
		If two societies that different ever came into contact with each other, I think it would be very, very awful.
		So I think the people in charge are probably correct in making that we actually agree with each other on one thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
		All right, Charles, thank you.
		Next time you call, be sure and point out to us all, please, the difference between any semi-automatic weapon in those bands.
		I'll tell you what it is.
		It's only cosmetic.
		Kind of like your argument.
		Cosmetic.
unidentified		This is Premier Networks.
		That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight we're gonna make it happen.
		Tonight we'll put all of the things aside.
		Give in this time and show me some affection.
		We'll be right back.
		We're going to have the pleasure of me.
		I want to love you, feel you.
		I wanted to feed you, feed you.
		Can get enough of you.
		Real slow, I'll let it go.
		Real slow, I'll let it go.
		Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell somewhere in time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm getting, as predictable, I'm getting a million little faxes like this.
		Do not mess around with a cat bite.
		It can be terribly serious.
		I experienced the same with my feral cat.
		Go to the emergency room.
		I'm not kidding.
		Especially if the cat's teeth came down on the top and bottom of a joint.
		Uh, yes, they did.
		I had 1.2 million units of penicillin, was on Teflex for 21 days.
		The injury is no joke.
		Yeah, I know.
		I'm watching it closely.
		I was an Air Force medic, and I, you know, I got peroxide on it early and fast, and Epsom salts, and started on some antibiotics that I've got.
		And so I'm watching it.
		If it swells or gets weird or begins to streak or infect, I will rush over to the local emergency room and have them stick me in the butt, whatever it is they're going to do.
		So I'm watching it.
		I'm not going to panic.
unidentified		No!
		No!
		now if you notice any more that be sure and let me know you You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from March 21st, 1996.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I'm the guy to talk to you about what made the Earth wobble.
		It's like the wheel.
		We put the weight on it, and you put a weight on the wheel, and it keeps the tire from shaking and wobbling.
		That's right.
		And I thought about we put the cities of New York and all these big cities all over there.
		We're even started.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got it, sir.
		I've got exactly what you're saying.
		Now, all we need to do is take the right spot on the earth and nail a big old piece of metal into it.
unidentified		You got it.
		Now, here's something else.
		I'm a common sense guy like you.
		Well, you and I have a lot in common.
		I've been bit by cats pretty stupid, and you go back and you keep doing it until pretty soon you learn something.
		Anyway, I look at the sun as a fireplace.
		So the people, civilization on Mars, they have a beautiful civilization over there.
		So when the fireplace gets colder, what do people do?
		They move closer to the fire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, or throw another log on the fire.
unidentified		Well, if you can't throw a log on the sun, you can't turn the sun up like a gas heater.
		So you have to move your civilization over to the closest next planet, which is the third planet from the sun.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so as the sun cooled, I get it, sir.
		Thank you.
		We just moved Earth's civilization on over, and what we're seeing on Mars is merely the remnant of where we were, where we are.
		Aloha, Art.
		This is under the famous last words category.
		By the way, I've got another one I want to add.
		My first famous last word statement.
		We're going to do this tomorrow night, too.
		Famous last words.
		Let's see.
		It just can't possibly jump species.
		Great last words.
		Other great last words, this one taken directly from a dentist's office, you may feel a little pressure.
		Or from our friend Dean in Kauai, in Hawaii, Madman Markham's famous last words, I'll just step into this ark.
		You have to have listened to the show for a while to get that one.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Artist Elizabeth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Elizabeth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
		Last night, I think it was last night, you said you couldn't help it, but you really enjoyed bad news.
		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, apocalyptic.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Want to hear some really bad news about bad news?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bad news about bad news?
unidentified		Bad news about bad news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Well, there's a study out, and bad news damages DNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then my DNA looks like my hand.
unidentified		All of our DNA looks like your hand.
		Negative thoughts and negative emotions interfere with the production of the amino acids that make up the DNA chains.
		So do you know the difference between the DNA in mortals and the DNA in immortals?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About the difference between smooth glass and the surface of the moon.
unidentified		That's pretty good.
		So in mortals, actually, it's kind of true.
		In mortals, the DNA chains shorten with aging.
		The DNA chains in tumors, which are immortal, of course, always remember to correctly finish off their amino acid helixes.
		You know, In other words, they complete their chains with each cell division, while as people, human beings, mortal animals age, they kind of forget to finish off those chains.
		And I was thinking about that woman in France to tie it back to bad news, the one who's going on 121.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I was thinking she has a galois and a perneau and she just laughs at bad news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really is true and probably at the both of us, Elizabeth.
unidentified		Well, you know, there are solutions or at least mitigations.
		You know, I'm fairly well read for every single thing that has been brought up on this show.
		And many of these solutions are synchronistic, but we're just not thinking about it.
		For example, if we implemented the hemp plan, we would solve the biomass problem, save the old growth, raise the sperm count, close the ozone hole because there wouldn't be any more chlorinated hydrocarbons or xenoestrogens, and we put a half a trillion a year into the economy.
		But we can't grow hemp, and we can't save the forest, and we can't save the sperm, and we can't make farmers rich, and we can't save ourselves because the Christians are politically organized to stop us.
		You know, they're afraid we'll smoke that bale of hemp it would take to have a mild high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that laying an awful lot on the table?
unidentified		No, it isn't.
unidentified		You know, and what I learned from reading classical history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, hemp could do all that?
unidentified		Hemp?
		Yes.
		Gosh, it can do much more than that.
		You can make anything out of it.
		And we could make oils for everything that would not have xenoestrogens in them because those come from splitting petroleum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying basically hemp could save the world?
unidentified		No, but I think it would be the first step.
		As I said, there's synchronistic effects.
		But I want to say what I learned from reading classical history, because this is one of the lessons of my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		We cannot afford to tolerate the intolerant because it just doesn't make any sense.
		This is what the Romans couldn't figure out.
		When all those foreigners moved into...
		Oh, I'll probably get a moral about him.
		I've got another call for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Elizabeth.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We cannot tolerate the intolerant.
		Ah, Art.
		I have spoken to my friend, the animal nutritionist in England.
		And now it appears we human meat-eaters may be getting the last laugh on the veggies.
		Because this disease has the ability to move throughout the food chain.
		It appears England today is now studying the milk and dairy products, too.
		Oh, God, I forgot about those.
		It is possible for it to dump into the dairy herds through breeding.
		Also, while the U.S. is playing down the problem here, as the kid of a farmer who's raised beef for 100 years in Illinois, and my folks owned a restaurant that served it, we Americans have been importing breeding stock from Britain for years.
		It is indeed possible this disease has come into the U.S. and we just don't know it.
		Quietly today, when talking with my family back in Illinois, the beef processing facilities are checking the beef very closely for any signs.
		The vet at the plant told my cousin that they didn't want to panic the public yet.
		Also, if I didn't tell you, according to the British experts, you can't cook BSE out of a steak either.
		If you want to talk to my real expert, let me know.
		She said she would be willing to talk to you about it.
		2020 called her already for an opinion.
		They acted scared when she gave them the entire story.
		Of course I would talk to her.
		Of course I would.
		So I will contact you, the person who sent this information, and we will indeed have your expert on the air.
		I'd be more than happy to do that.
		This is a hot and current topic.
		I really can't believe what's going on in England.
		I just can't believe it.
		Dear Ardbell, to your mentioning that some comets are harbingers of doom.
		Well, isn't it coincidental the current comet will be closest and most visible at the same time Taiwan is to hold its election, this being the burr under China's saddle.
		Curious in Seattle, it's signed.
		Certainly, my comet was a harbinger of doom, wasn't it?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Keith from Nashville.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Keith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		WWTN.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		My personal opinion, and I've got other ideas, and I don't know if I've got enough time to explain into it, but religion has nothing to do with the only logical reason why NASA would want to attempt to cover up the possibility of existing life forms outside of our own solar system or within it.
		It's all got to do with who's in control of NASA and who's getting the bucks in the project itself.
		To subsequent the fact to give us a desire to reach beyond means we're going to have to grow.
		And it means we're going to have to grow beyond the means of those people who are in control of the system itself, and they don't want to let go.
		All comes down to, like I said, I don't know how far Prompt is from Henderson, but I was stationed at Nellis in 82 when the plant that creates the propane fuel for the space shuttle program went boom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was there when the boom went off.
unidentified		Yeah, I was sitting in Samstown's parking lot.
		Really?
		We had just come back from the Boulder Dam.
		I had just taken my parents out there to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Casually, I don't know if you've ever seen a video of that, but it looked exactly like a nuclear detonation.
unidentified		Yes, it did.
		And the cloud was white because, you know, liquid propane more or less implodes rather than explodes.
		It's one of the most volatile substances in business.
		And I personally jumped up and down for joy because I figured I could not understand or believe that the powers to be in NASA would be able to bull Congress into rebuilding that plant to use a propulsion system for a space project that was 30 years outdated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, all right, sir.
		I appreciate your call.
		I remember the explosion well.
		Boy, was that something.
		It was like a nuclear detonation.
		No question about it.
		If you ever get a chance to see the video clip of the explosion that occurred near Las Vegas, Henderson, Las Vegas Green Valley.
		Henderson, actually.
		You're going to want to see it.
		It was amazing.
		It really did look like a nuclear detonation.
		And to many there, it felt like it, too.
		Well, listen.
		Do you have pain?
		I know about pain.
		I've gone from thumb to bite marks to scratches.
		My poor hand.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		How are you?
		I'll be a son of a peachy.
		I'm on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you are.
unidentified		My name is London.
unidentified		I was at your book signing in Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you were?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, I liked the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was something, wasn't it?
unidentified		It was.
unidentified		I think I was number 1764.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1764.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It blew me away, I'll tell you that.
unidentified		I can imagine you were a touch tired after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was basket case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, basket cases.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah, I like being that way.
		Well, anyway, no, there's a couple of reasons I called.
		First of all, I wanted to agree with the hemp woman there.
		I think there's a lot of benefits to growing hemp.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there actually are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the Wall Street Journal has estimated there'd be a half trillion dollars injected into the economy every year from it.
unidentified		Yeah, right.
		And, you know, besides the medicinal purposes and fuel generating purposes, there's a million.
		There's countless.
		But on the gun control issue, I understand you're pro-gun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, that's a good idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm anti- What I am is anti-stupidity.
		And this whole gun ban is just plain stupid.
		Stupid.
		And, you know, you're talking about a cosmetic difference, and they're arguing about it.
		And the only reason I didn't even bother bringing it up tonight is, one, they don't have the votes.
		Two, this is a payoff to the NRA.
		And three, even if by some miracle it passed, this president is going to veto it.
		So it's not going to happen.
		I don't even know what they're fighting about.
unidentified		Well, the funny thing is, is people are going to have them whether it's vetoed or not.
		They're still going to be available.
		They're still going to enter the country, whether they're made here or not.
		People are still going to get guns.
		And I think one of the things that separates this country from a lot of countries is the fact that the people have enough firepower to fight a police state.
		And I think, you know, it hasn't come to pass that that's become necessary, and heaven forbid it ever will.
		But I think that's an important factor.
		And I think, you know, basically, if you want to, if you say that one person shoots another, and that's wrong, outlaw guns, if one person clubs another to death, you don't outlaw clubs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, sir.
		Thank you very much.
		It was not worth spending a lot of time on tonight, or even very much at all, simply because, baby, it ain't going to happen.
		I'm a realist.
		I've been watching and listening to the argument going on in the Senate, and it's not going to happen.
		There's a lot of emotion and a lot of fire and a lot of hot air.
		And if the miracle of miracles occurred and it passed, the president would veto that so fast your head would spin.
		And Janet Reno would be right there holding part of the pen.
		So I'm smarter than that.
		There's no point in spending a lot of time on that.
		Now, if you get Bob Dolan, that's a different story.
		Still, I would only rate myself as semi-hopeful, but then we could have a talk about it.
		This gun ban is not going to be repealed.
		Stupid will stand.
		Stupidity will stand, no question about it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning there, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		This Mike in Cheyenne, 14 K-Ray Country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		K-R-A-E.
unidentified		I just wanted to say, first off, how can someone who speaks so eloquently as Elizabeth be so naive and want to put millions on welfare by hurting the beef industry?
		Education.
		Second off, great show.
		I enjoyed it thoroughly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And just wanted to let you know and hope everything goes alright with your little kiddie bite there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not a little kitty bite, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a hand that doesn't have anywhere near the amount of flesh on it did yesterday.
unidentified		That's what friends said they had the Vidian on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they saw it, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		All righty, will you just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you very much.
		The Vidian.
		Such cool technology.
		Hey, by the way, I've got a secret.
		You know what?
		We may be advertising Vidian tomorrow night.
		The real thing.
		The two-way version.
		Did I get a tetanus shot?
		No, not yet.
		I've had a few in my life.
		I'll probably go get a stinking booster today.
		But they tested the cat.
		You know, I mean, the cat was down there.
		It doesn't mean I'm not going to get horribly sick.
		But we had the cat at the vet, and it was tested for everything under the sun, given shots for most of what's under the sun.
		Probably feline madness disease is only a moment away.
		So I'll probably get a tennis shot.
		Or maybe it's too late.
		In which case, I do bequeath my shattered and shredded thumb to the caller From Denver.
		Wildcard to be pickled.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, this is Anthony from Missoula, and I'm so liberal I scare myself.
		Really?
		How are you doing today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just fine, sir.
		You know, I've actually, I always thought of Missoula, Montana as not real liberal.
		Actually, I thought of it as probably extremely conservative, probably a lot of farming in the areas of Missoula.
		Truth is, it's a college town and very liberal.
unidentified		Yeah, it's the most liberal place in Montana.
		I've lived all over Montana, born and bred in Montana, and it's the most liberal place here, but it is still too conservative for me.
		I'm headed to Seattle by a sailboat.
		I'm going to stay there for a while.
		But I was calling just because, oh, Elizabeth rocked tonight.
		Wow, she was on.
		She was on tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She was on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
unidentified		She was on.
		That him stuff could not be truer.
		And, you know, I am all for freedom of religion.
		We've talked about it before.
		But when it comes down to it, the one thing that's held our civilization back more than anything else has been Western religion time and time again.
		I think it's just gotten to where science is so far ahead of it now that it can't be stopped.
		You know, we're just going to keep shooting out there.
		But over and over again, Western religions, Christianity in particular, has managed to just really put the whole reins on our ability to evolve and shoot forward.
		Of course they're going to figure out ways to explain off anything that happens.
		Okay, if there are things on the moon, then maybe God and his angels build them there.
		It's God's amusement park, whatever.
		But it doesn't matter.
		As long as they just explain it off and quit pointing the devil at everything.
		God, I'm so sick of hearing, oh, it's evil.
		It's just a thing.
		People make things evil.
		Drugs is the primary thing that people make evil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of drugs are very evil, sir.
unidentified		No, we approach them evilly.
		No, we approach them evilly.
		We don't have a context for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't care whether you want to attribute the evil part of it to that which is within us that causes us to use them, but as substances, their use is evil.
unidentified		Now, you talk drugs every day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not talking necessarily now about pot or hemp.
		I'm talking about cocaine.
		Sir, people have sold their children to get more of it.
		Women consistently sell their bodies to get it.
		Lots of people have said that cocaine, when shot with a needle, is a bigger rush, a bigger high, than a sexual climax.
		And if you think that that doesn't lead to evil in its pursuit, then you're just not thinking.
		Everything is in degrees, sir.
		And I'm not going to sit here and agree with you that drugs are not evil or their use is not evil because it is.
		Well, I'm almost out of time.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		I'm Clinton, Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Clinton, Oklahoma City.
		Clint, you know what?
		Show's over, but you're going to get the honors.
unidentified		Okay, one thing.
unidentified		If you don't come back tonight, does that mean you get locked off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what it means, Clint.
unidentified		Good night, America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, Clinton, Oklahoma knows how to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I. From the high desert, shredded as I am.

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