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Feb. 18, 1996 - Art Bell
01:46:14
Dreamland with Art Bell - UFO Abductees - Betty Luca and Raymond Fowler
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Time Text
Publication.
Hi, Ray.
Hi, good evening.
Hi.
Good to have you on the program.
It's been a long time.
Oh, nice to be with you again.
I guess the way to begin is to begin, and that is to go back and find out how did you meet up with and learn about Ms.
Luca?
Well, it was back in 1976, and the Massachusetts Mufon Group was looking for a good Close encounter of the fourth kind to look into, and Dr. J. Allen Hynek, who was Chief Scientific Consultant to the Air Force, who signed Grudge and Blue Book, forwarded Betty's letter to us.
We sent an investigator to talk to Betty to see what kind of a person she was, and then instigated an investigation that lasted between 1977 and 1978, and resulted in a three volume five hundred twenty eight page report appear
review it uh... betty of course uh... was abducted from our home on
january twenty fifth nineteen six seven
and uh... underwent uh... remarkable abduction experience which is uh...
uh... parallel by many other cases uh... fence that what i'm not very if i might back up a little bit when you
go when you investigate a case like this or any other
what kind of questions do you ask our Have you learned to ask certain key questions that will help you determine fairly quickly what you've got on your hands?
I guess the first thing we did was do a character reference check on Betty to see if she was of good repute and that worked out very well.
We had her fill out forms and interrogated her as regarding how much she could remember.
Basically all she could remember consciously and her father could remember was She was in the kitchen and her children and parents were out in the living room and a bright orange, reddish-orange light flashed through the pantry window and the lights began blinking off and on and then went out.
And Betty's father rushed in to see what had happened and he went to the pantry window and saw a bright light out in the field and then saw these strange creatures coming toward the house.
They really weren't walking, they were sort of floating up and down.
They stopped at the window and looked at him, and that's the only thing he could remember, and then they came right through the wall, through the door, and put Betty's family into a state, I guess, for want of a better term, suspended animation, and convinced her to come with them out to a craft that was in the field, which she did.
They floated up into the craft, and the smaller craft She went up and entered a logic craft and she was given a
typical physical examination, etc.
We put her daughter under hypnosis.
Her father didn't want anything to do with it, but they both relived complementary accounts
of what had happened.
We were interested in having her sit down with a psychiatrist and have a psychiatric
evaluation, which she did.
She volunteered it, actually.
She's a very devout fundamentalist Christian, and this was no part of her belief system, and she thought she was going crazy when these memories surfaced, so she actually asked if we could do this, and of course, we were pleased because we were embarrassed to ask her if she would like to sit down with someone like that, and she passed in flying colors, and she also took a lie detector test, as did her daughter.
When all was said and done, we were convinced, at least, that she and her daughter believed that this had happened to her.
And, of course, since then, many of the abduction experiences that have been reported parallel many aspects of her account.
This was just the beginning, though.
We found that she had had abduction experiences way back in childhood, as we continued to appropriate background so
there was a Issue that there were four books based on for what I call
phase investigation based investigations between
1977 and 1994 and
Basically records
Her experiences, okay, Ray I want to stop you at this point in the investigation and
tell you what's coming up But you really already know about it. I got a panicked call
and I mean panic from Bud Hopkins Friday and
And he said that NOVA is coming out and doing a series on his work and that of John Mack at Harvard.
And basically it's going to be a hit piece.
And it's going to basically try to rip to pieces the kind of work they've done.
Charging false memory syndrome, induced memories by the examiner, that sort of thing.
If somebody were to come and examine Betty's case, with regard to the kind of examination done, would they find room to make those kind of charges, or what kind of safety was used in the investigation?
Well, no leading questions were asked under hypnosis.
Basically, we just let Betty relive the account and provided some comfort to her when things got real rough.
But the basic thing is to not ask leading questions and just let the person relive the abduction account.
Now, Betty was like a blank blackboard.
I mean, she had no interest in unidentified flying objects and UFO abductions were fairly unknown back then to most people.
So she was a... I thought she was a good case to investigate because she put a religious spin on her experience.
This is all she knew and she thought well this must be something to do with her religion
which I thought was great because she didn�t interpret it as an extraterrestrial experience
or something like that.
So it was like taking a child really and probing the mind of someone that really didn�t have
false memories, UFO stuff, and read an awful lot of things about abductions which of course
really didn�t exist in those days.
The Interrupted Journey had been published and so forth, but again, she wasn't interested.
I think that no matter how vigorous UFO abduction research is, and the Yellow Gash Abductions, I think we did an excellent job in documenting that particular case, no matter what you do, There are going to be people out there that are equal in authority to Dr. John Mack, for example, who will take the opposite side.
They don't believe it happened, and they start off with a premise it couldn't have happened, so they come up with alternate explanations for it.
Which is good, but the problem with something like NOVA is, and they did this with the UFO phenomenon several years back, they will interview people, and they did, Dr. Hynek, for example, they will take things out of context as regarding what they said
and then they will put their own spin on it to come up with their own
promised only as i've got ten pages from part of exactly that sort of thing that they have apparently donnie is
extremely upset and uh...
john mack of course doesn't need this either now he doesn't and know what they should really do is have
each person you know uh...
tell the audience about their research what they've done and so forth
uh... and opposing the cons and then let them have it out with each
other and uh...
and have a rather uh... sort of a referee
debate rather than uh...
uh... sucking these people into something that they think is going to
help their research and finding out that what they're doing is that sort of
trying to slam the door on it I think the abduction experiences have become so well known through a number of TV programs and books like my own and Bud Hopkins and Dr. Mac and so forth that
Someone out there, conservative science, whatever you want to call it, decides that something has to be done so they get, just like they did with the UFO phenomena several years ago, get some psychiatrists together and so forth and put them on NOVA, which is a very respected program.
Use that as a vehicle to try to squelch all this stuff.
Well, the tip off, of course, is that it's driven by an agenda.
They have decided prior to the program exactly what kind of program they're going to do.
And by hook or crook, they're going to make it come out that way.
It's a shame that Bud and John didn't realize that from the outset and try to get something
on paper where they would, I don't know what they did, but make sure that what they wanted
to say would be on TV.
Unfortunately, they'll editorialize it according to their whim.
Well, that's the problem with television, Ray, is that you can even take something in
context and then bring on somebody else with another piece of tape directly behind that
person, showing the first to be seemingly ridiculous.
Right.
That's the ability of the cutting room floor.
All right, well, you've done four books now.
Nine books, actually.
And my question is, with what you've told me about her experience thus far, that's a lot of material.
That's a lot of material.
So, apparently, the follow-up books then looked further into her background from that first incident.
Yes.
What we did was, the first incident, she relived a needle being placed up her nose and a little BB-like object being taken out of it.
We wondered how that got there and when the hypnotist tried to find out she became so upset that he felt he didn't want to put her through that and so it was just sort of left for a while and then we went back with a phase two investigation with another hypnotist and he let her go through it and it happened when she was a 13 year old and probing deeper we found out that It went even further back to an earlier age.
So we documented all of that in the Andrea's in a Fair Face 2.
And we got up to 1973 and again she became so traumatized that we decided not to go any further.
And later on again we picked it up and tried again.
It was interesting how that happened, but it's a long story.
We picked up at 1973 and watches two and progressed through several abduction experiences that
she had.
Ray, you use the term paraphysical a lot.
I know what paranormal is.
Paraphysical, would that mean a visit of the fourth type in which there was actual physical
contact or you were taken aboard a ship or what does it mean?
Basically, many of the UFO reports that we've been getting over the years involve some very strange, what you might call paranormal phenomena, or abilities associated with them.
Many researchers don't know what to do with this stuff.
They're hardcore nuts-and-bolts hypothesis researchers that feel that UFOs are hardware from another solar system.
And so a lot of this information just gets tossed out as frivolous or something that has nothing to do with the subject.
And I decided that it was time to look at this and publish something on it.
Paraphysical basically means something that can behave as if it had mass and weight.
Uh, on one end of the spectrum, and on the other end of the spectrum, doesn't seem to have either.
For example, you have UFOs that can take right angle turns with no curve radius.
Uh, you have UFOs appear visually on radar at point A, and then suddenly sort of disappear and reappear at point B with no flight path between the... somewhere, then come back from somewhere from another dimension or whatever.
Then you have UFOs that land And they exhibit mass and weight.
You have tripod marks, quadruped marks, penetrometers indicate that there were tons sitting on those struts or whatever made the marks.
So you have a paradox here.
You have something that behaves as if it had mass and weight, and sometimes, and other times, it appears that it's weightless.
The falling leaf motion, for example, it's almost like Something that is almost lighter than air, wobbling and hovering on its axis, bobbing on the air like a cork bobbing on the water.
But there are a lot of other things that are curious about the UFO.
You have not only them appearing and disappearing visually and on radar, you have their entities, like in the Andreessen case, pass through solid structures, through walls, through doors.
You have them, the entities, appear as a ball of light and then become an entity and then disappear within a ball of light.
These are reports now.
I'm saying if you take these things at face value.
Again, in and out, do you lean toward the other dimension theory?
What I'm doing is investigating that and saying that there's a lot of evidence for this.
I know Dr. Hynek and Dr. Vallee We're coming to this conclusion, and I thought that, you know, where are these people going?
Because they were sort of my idols, and I felt that this was nonsense.
But entities communicate with mental telepathy.
They create, and this is interesting, they seem to create and conduct abductions.
Not physical abductions, but you have these abductees, for example, taken from a car, a bed, or a field.
And see their bodies left behind.
And they undergo the same type of abduction experience as someone who has a physical abduction experience.
And even more strange is the fact that after being abducted and physically examined in this state of being, they come back to their bodies and you have the same scars.
Explain that.
And then you have people who have had close encounters like that.
Uh, there are other types of phenomena that start up that they've never had experience with before, poltergeist phenomena, OBEs, electrical sensitivity, seeing apparitions and so forth.
It almost seems that there's a meta-phenomena out there and that UFOs are part of it, just as OBEs and NDEs and all of this extra-sensory phenomena or paranormal phenomena that are exhibited throughout the world.
You have these paraphysical attributes of both UFOs and their entities that I think demand attention.
If you were studying something, you don't leave out something because you don't like it or it doesn't fit your hypothesis.
And I decided to look at the paraphysical attributes of UFOs and entities.
And in doing so, I saw that there was tremendous similarities between the close encounter of the fourth kind of abduction experience, especially the OBEs, Alright, that's exactly where we're going to pause right now, Ray.
My guest is Ray Fowler and that's exactly where we're going to pick up.
Remarkable similarities, he said, between close encounters of the fourth kind and near-death experiences.
That should be very interesting.
As is most of what we do on Dreamland.
I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
There'll be more in a moment.
Stay right there.
♪♪ I'm Art Bell.
This is Dreamland.
I'm not playing the phone number bumper because we're not taking calls right now.
Due to the nature of this evening's show and the three separate hours that will yet all tie together.
We're not, in all probability, until the last hour, I doubt we're going to take calls.
You've heard me talk about Raymond E. Fowler, and for a very long time, as many of you know, NDEs, or near-death experiences, have been of great fascination for me.
And I am very curious, Ray, what similarities you see between NDEs, and boy, there have been books and thousands of cases, even children, Uh, explaining to us what happens when you die.
What similarities are there between these NDEs and these close encounters of the fourth kind?
Well, there are some close encounters of the fourth kind which we call OBE abductions.
In other words, abductions taking a person in the out-of-the-body state that are strikingly similar to the near-death experience.
Both, for example, are in an OBE state.
Both reportedly travel toward a bright light and are greeted by a loving being.
During their experience with this loving being, they experience a oneness with reality.
Both sometimes are transformed into light themselves and experience communication by telepathy.
Both are sometimes taken to a spacecraft and brought to a world of light called home.
and uh... both are very reluctant to leave the world of light when they're
there and experience the sense of timelessness and both return knowing
that love is fundamental and very important
uh... both return with a concern for earth's ecological state and uh...
and seem to indicate that there's a symbiotic effect upon the entities
whether they be uh... the ufo entities or the uh... entities that that are
met uh... at the end of the dark tunnel uh...
So you'll have all these similarities, and that's from UFO research.
Uh, Dr. Kenneth Ring reports that, uh, he has a number of cases on a pilot he calls mixed motifs.
And these cases involve persons who experience what seems to be a UFO abduction.
During a near-death experience, just what I found on the other end of the spectrum, and they report being on board the same type craft, the same type entities reported by abductees.
So it's like he has this mountain of research that he's working with on NDEs, and I'm on the other end of the mountain, and we're sort of tunneling through there, and all of a sudden we bump into each other in the middle of this mountain of NDE and UFO research.
I find it very startling, myself, when I found these similarities.
Well, you said they were concerned about our ecology, and you said there was a symbiotic relationship, and we're always looking for motive with regard to UFOs and abduction experiences.
Motive is very important.
Cattle mutilations, all the rest of it, whatever's going on.
Could it be, Ray, that our fate, or put more appropriately, their fate, Well, what seems to be going on, and this is so far out that I hardly even dare talk about it, but if you take everything at face value, and we really haven't got that much time to go into detail, it would almost seem that those abduction experiences involving physical examinations and things like that may not be specifically genetic engineering at all.
It almost looks like we are being bred like we would breed a herd of cattle, in other words.
People being tested, examined, and so forth, but something else that's coming.
In a nutshell, I would make an analogy like this, that we have a Dragonfly larvae, for example, that lives in a water dimension.
And later on it transforms into a dragonfly that lives in a totally different air dimension.
And I hypothesize, and this is just a summary statement, that perhaps the dragonflies are the entities they're returning to care for and warn the larvae, us humans, that they are polluting the pond, the earth, so badly That the larvae's existence is in danger.
No more larvae, no more dragonflies.
And this would explain the abduction and DE similarities.
The entity's great concern about Earth's ecology and its attempts to monocome preserve the human form for the next plane of existence.
That's very good.
We are they.
They are us.
They are us.
And no more us, no more them.
Alright, well that does say it.
Let's work with that for a second.
How does that mix in with people's religious concepts?
Or in your research, do you try to separate, as carefully as you can, religion from research?
I try to be religion neutral in my research.
I only get involved with it with Betty because Uh, she interprets, uh, her experiences, uh, you know, within a religious context.
But, they told Betty that human beings, uh, let's just go through a few things they told Betty.
They told Betty that human beings were more than flesh and blood.
They told, uh, her husband Bob that the human form would continue in another existence after death, and they indicated that humans will someday know the universes they do, and These entities and the UFOs appear to enter our space-time from a dimension that may even co-exist with ours.
For example, if someone has an out-of-the-body experience, they are here, but no one sees them.
They can't interface with what they see.
And people who are left behind in what you might call a physical world can't see them either.
So that's the only other dimension that humans routinely experience,
is during an OBE or an NDE, which even goes further.
So this dimension may be where the UFOs and entities originate.
And this would explain the similarities between humanoids, seen in both NDEs and UFO abductions.
You know, scientists say that the humanoid form is unique to Earth.
And if that's true, this is another indication that we're related to some of these
humanoid Nordics that look almost just like us.
In fact, Betty was told that the small greys were genetically altered human penises.
So UFO entities assume other humanoid forms that appear to be –
in fact, I don't think most people believe what I even said.
This whole hypothesis is based on a what-if situation.
But all you have to look at and read in the newspapers, the TV,
you see the countless rivers and streams of ponds are dead and slowly dying.
There's acid rain, you have dioxide.
Dioxin rather, producing changes in reproductive and immune systems of animals.
They told Betty that eventually mankind was going to become sterile.
So you have all of these different things that are going on.
The sperm count of men, for example, has fallen dramatically over the past 50 years according to a number of studies.
Ray, there was an article in the New Yorker magazine last month that said sperm counts are falling so precipitously that it is possible they could go to zero within one generation.
Yeah.
You've got global warming reducing the amount of plankton, for example.
Plankton is at the lower end of the food chain for all living things.
You've got radiation from ozone layer disruption.
You can go on and on and on and on.
You would think that we wouldn't have to be told, but if there is a symbiotic connection between them and us, and there is some prime directive, which we have, NASA has, if we were to meet other life forms, if they have some prime directive where They only can do this or that.
That's a good point.
I don't know.
As a UFO investigator, I'm a reporter and I report.
This is the first book that I've really speculated anything like this.
And I never thought I would get to the point where I'd even consider something like this.
But it's starting to all fit together.
And again, I insist in the book.
If I talk to people, it's based on a what-if premise.
If OBEs, NDEs, and OBE abductions are real, valid experiences, and the reports coming from abductees are real, then this is what you come up with.
It's not what I wanted to come up with, but this is what I come up with.
How have your colleagues greeted your latest effort?
They've been very silent.
The people who are involved in NDE research, I think, are pleased.
Dr. Kenneth Ring, for example, is very pleased, and he's sort of the father of NDE research, the Dr. Heineck of NDE research.
Sure.
and uh... interestingly enough john carpenter who's the head of our
abduction researcher uh... consultant and you found a road a nice blurb uh...
for the park so i am getting there
uh... some interesting uh...
positive response for some you are for researchers but
some are completely silent i think that sort of stunned that's not where it's probably going to
along with dr hannigan police uh... well maybe that's bringing uh... this uh... novocaine
developed business at us now
The fact that so many of you are following trails, bravely I might add, that lead into writing books like this that are risky.
Yeah, well just the abduction experience, the physical abduction experience will probably be the only thing that's really dealt with on the NOVA program.
They probably wouldn't even Consider dealing with the paraphysical side of UFOs.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science at one time allowed parapsychology in as a science.
That only lasted a few years, and they now have dismissed that as a science.
So, unfortunately, we've been programmed from childhood by A conservative scientific method, I guess, and religion and philosophy and so forth is regarding what can and what can't be.
And it's just like a transponder on the aircraft.
An airplane doesn't have a transponder, you know.
The control tower operators and the radar operators just don't bother with it.
That's true.
And we're sort of programmed that way, you know.
If someone says they had an out-of-the-body experience to another person, that person will say, well, those things can't happen.
So, you have all these people having these experiences, but they keep quiet about it because they aren't supposed to happen.
You describe in your book death, the experience of death as the ultimate abduction.
What does that mean?
That would mean that death, in other words, would be the same as an OBE abduction, but you would stay where, instead of being sent back, it would be the same thing as a And NDE, but the final abduction of this is true.
If the human form is growing what comes out of us when we have an out-of-the-body experience, for example, if the human form produces a humanoid form that exists in another dimension, then that essence, or whatever you want to call it, is taken in the OBE abduction, but it's very similar to what happens in the near-death experience.
Now, these people are sent back.
We don't know what happens.
You know, the people that don't come back, but the similarities are so striking between them.
It would seem that there is a definite connection between them, and that at death, it would be similar to an OBE abduction, going through the same type of thing as an NDE, but You don't come back, must I say, would be the ultimate abduction.
There are very many similarities, and what have you concluded, if anything, about the nature of death itself?
Do you remember the movie Flatliners?
Yeah, I started to watch it one night on TV, and I got interrupted and never saw the end of it.
Well, the concept was interesting.
You know, the story got a little wild, as they tend to do with the license they have But, um, it was very, very interesting, uh, in a bunch of young doctors, uh, taking each other with agreement to death's door, uh, physical death.
And then, of course, having all the facilities and the other doctors there to revive them to find out exactly what is on the other side.
Has anybody actually ever, uh, that you know of, Ray, experimented with that kind of thing?
Not that I know of.
Never been made public that they did.
What is interesting in some of these abduction experiences is that these people are trained.
They're trained on consoles and things like that.
And you say, well, what are these people being trained for?
They certainly aren't being trained for something now.
Then you have a number of cases where the entities actually know a human's going to die.
I mean, they told Betty, for example, her two sons are going to die.
And, you know, a few days later they did.
And I remember her coming to my house feeling very, very depressed because something was on her mind or in her subconscious.
And she didn't know what it was, but something terrible was going to happen.
And I can remember, I even recorded this, uh, she was crying and said that something terrible was going to happen.
And she had been, we'd been working with her, uh, during the investigation.
And then I tried to calm her down and said, well, it's just this investigation.
I think it's just getting to you.
And then she called me up about a day and a half later and her two sons had died.
Well, under hypnosis, she was told this, uh, relived an experience where she was told this and it was there.
But she didn't remember.
I have another report where someone was told that someone was going to... several reports where these entities during a UFO abduction experience were told that so-and-so was going to die or this person was going to die and lo and behold they did.
Again, you have this connection with death or either that or precognition.
It's getting very, very strange, this whole thing.
This paraphysical side, the other side of UFO research, is not getting too much attention.
And basically because it's so bizarre.
I mean, just the abduction phenomenon is so bizarre that a lot of people don't want to deal with it.
But when you get to this other side, which seems to be left out of the reports, it gets really bizarre.
And it's very hard to articulate, you know, myself to you and to your radio audience.
These things, because they seem to be so far, far out.
I never thought I'd ever be talking like this.
Okay, Raymond, where from here?
How does this line of investigation now proceed?
If anything, it probably gets weirder.
What method of continuing investigation do you see occurring?
Well, I'm hoping, I'm hoping that people within UFO research know me and for some reason have some respect.
Oh, yes.
You know, I've gone off the deep end.
They're going to say, hey, he's right.
We should start documenting some of this other stuff and see where it leads us to.
And this is science.
You have your peers review your work and say, well, let's look at some of these reports and let's not ignore all of this stuff that's coming out and let's see if what he says has any merit to it.
What I'm hoping it will be is a catalyst for the nuts-and-bolts hardware enthusiasts out there to say, hey, we're just looking at one part of this.
Let's look at the other side, too.
Otherwise, we aren't looking at the whole phenomenon.
It's like the blind man trying to describe an elephant.
No one describes the... You know what I mean?
Yes, of course.
Yeah, it is.
So, you're very much out on the edge.
Of the fringe.
Of the fringe.
And as you say, your colleagues are at the moment silent.
Do you think they are just absorbing I really don't know.
I'm just glad that the Director of Abduction Research from UFON on the Board of Directors with me put a nice blurb in my book and it was complimentary and I thought that was good because he was chosen for that position because of his prestige in the area of abduction research.
And then you have on the other end of the spectrum Dr. Hynek of NDE Research approving the work too. I've been
in there so long and I really don't care about reputation as long as I'm trying to do what I
feel is honest and objective work. No matter where it leads, people can think what they think.
Now I'm 62 and who cares?
I know that's the nice thing about getting a little older, isn't it? I'm the same way. I'm
almost to the point where I'm going to say what I want on the air to hell with it.
So I'm glad you're there and I look forward to following your work. And as you know,
we're going to talk with Betty Luca next.
Right.
And give him my regards.
And next year we'll have the Andreessen Legacy, which will try to put more of this together.
Wonderful.
I really appreciate you having come on the show.
I know how busy you are.
Raymond Fowler, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
That's Raymond Fowler, author of many, many, many books, the latest of which is The Watchers 2, written all about Betty Andreessen Luca.
And guess who's next?
That's right.
Betty and Gleason Luca coming up next right here on Dreamland.
One of the most famous abduction cases in all history.
We'll be back.
Good evening across the country.
Now 171 affiliate strong, this is Dreamland.
I'm Art Bell.
And I'm sure the rest of you felt as this faxer does about Raymond Fowler.
Simply, Art, here's one ufologist who is with Ray Fowler.
I always appreciate his willingness to move forward, and he certainly has done that.
A number of books now.
The latest, Watchers 2.
All about the Betty and Dreesen Luca affair.
And we are privileged to have with us, in a moment, Betty and Dreesen Luca.
And her husband, Bob.
And he'll cooperate some of what she has to say.
All coming up in just a moment.
Cue 3, now.
Off we go to speak with, I hope we're connected well, Betty Andreessen Luca and her husband Bob.
Are you two there?
Yes, we are.
Hello to you and hello to all your listeners.
I know Raymond Fowler was in Boston.
Where are you?
We're in Virginia right now.
In Virginia.
All right.
Well, you certainly are the subject of many, many, many pages and books now by Ray Fowler.
And so I guess we would ask you To first describe, as best you can, your own words, the latter experience, the big experience that you consciously remember without the aid of hypnosis.
Well, the very first conscious memory I had was of the 1967 encounter, and I was at home with my seven children.
My mother and father were there with me.
And suddenly the lights went out and there was a reddish-orange pulsating light in the backyard.
It was coming through the pantry window and as I said there was silence and beings entered my home and from there we went into the living room and there was an exchange of books.
That was my first conscious recall of A UFO encounter.
Was that fully conscious?
In other words, you weren't saying, I've got to pinch myself, am I dreaming, am I asleep?
No, that was fully conscious.
Fully conscious.
Such an encounter would, well, of course you never know until it happens, I suppose, but I would think I would be stiffened with fear.
Well, my faith helped me there.
Without my faith, I think that I probably would have passed out.
They seem to be angels entering my home.
Mm-hmm.
You are a devout Christian?
Yes.
Are you still a devout Christian?
Yes, I am.
What do you think these beings represented?
Well, for me, I believe that they represent more in our spiritual realm, even though they are in the physical also.
Man is made of body, soul and spirit and we deal primarily with our physical being and once in a while with our emotional and soul part of our being.
But our spiritual part we somehow have eliminated and this is the whole person, body, soul and spirit.
I believe now we are coming to a point where our spirit is going to have to open up and recognize who we really are.
And these beings are coming to the forefront for us to realize who we really are.
Dr. Raymond Fowler said that he thinks they're trying to get us a message with regard to the way we're treating Earth.
Most definitely, yes.
I will ask you what I asked him.
Why, if that is the case, if there is a symbiotic relationship between wherever they are, another dimension or space or planet or whatever, and here, and that relationship is a critical one for them, as if if we foul where we are, in some way they are fouled, then why take such a Well, I don't think that they deal in elections.
I think they want man to still have his free will and choice.
anybody else why not land on the white house lawn and uh... simply uh... let the message out
well i don't think that they feel in and alex i think they want me and to still have his
free will and choy and uh... it's a quiet the lead they have been paying
the thousands of people all over the world and at that planning on the white house on i don't think there
are interested in it just but the political thing
Alright, your husband Bob is here, and I've left him out so far.
Bob, how long have you two been married?
Since 1978.
How do you feel about all of this that has happened?
I mean, you've been with Betty now all this time, a very famous abduction case.
And I'm sure you've talked to her for many, many hours and long moments and short moments about all of this.
What have you concluded?
Well, originally I had several of my own abduction experiences before I met her.
And I am basically a nuts and bolts type person.
I had to admit to the physical reality of the phenomena when I saw and experienced what I did in 1967 also before I met her.
I had a lot of trouble in accepting The spiritual aspect of the phenomenon, because I basically, my mind said it was very hard for me to understand.
Are you a religious person?
I am now a Christian, yes.
However, at the time I met Betty, I had no particular religion and haven't had for probably 25 years.
Well, you know, it's funny.
This is for either one or both of you, but Christians who listen to the kind of show that I'm doing right now and the kind of thing that you're saying right now, They become greatly offended.
Generally become greatly offended and they say, these people are being fooled.
These beings or whatever it is they call them are certainly not from God.
They are, if anything, from the devil.
You're tampering with forces and things that you know not.
How do you two react to that?
Well, I mean, you know, each person can make up their own mind and I realize that the Christian,
many of the Christian people have a view that they are demonic.
However, if they really studied the Word of God, they would see that also the good is
visiting us.
I mean, the angelic beings are still speaking to mankind.
It did not end at the New Testament.
So...
What we're getting now, then, is a continuation of instruction from the New Testament?
I think that God continues to speak to us.
Of course, the Christian view, where Jesus finished all things, I believe this.
Yes, He has finished all things, but it does not mean that the spiritual and physical Has ended where we do not have communication with the angelic host.
Can you describe for us, Betty, as best you're able to, what these creatures look like?
Well, the tall elders have white hair, very pale skin, pale blue eyes.
high cheekbones and they were in a white robe, did not have any shoes on at all.
And the smaller ones, which they said were watchers, were about three to five feet tall,
had very large heads, gray skin, and had very large black eyes.
I was later told by the elders that these gray watchers were their remote imaging surrogates
and they were connected to them through bioelectric mind projection.
So in other words, these are a combination of biological, they're beings and machines.
They're, right.
They're spiritual and physical, and I think that the graves are being used by the elders Perhaps because of the pollution on Earth or the ultraviolet light.
I think that they are using them to do the particular work of watching the Earth and mankind because the Watchers did say that they were caretakers of nature in all natural forms.
Did you see the Roswell crash film, Betty?
Yes, I did.
Did you see any creature that looked like that?
Well, it was similar, but the things that I have been involved with were slightly different.
They were not as thin and willowy as those.
They were more, I'd say more like a child, but a robust child.
In what manner did they communicate to you?
That was through mental telepathy, through the mind.
But the elders spoke directly to me.
As in, out loud?
Pardon?
As in, out loud?
Yes.
Yes.
Was there any specific message that they wanted you to bring back?
I understand there were some experiments performed on you.
Medical experiments?
Uh-huh.
The Watchers said that man would become sterile, and with the population explosion, you wonder, well, how could that possibly be?
But there has been a lot of information collected by the medical field that is showing that... I know.
There's a New Yorker magazine article, as I told Raymond, suggesting that the sperm count in man is dropping worldwide at a pace that, should it keep up, will go to zero within one generation.
And we see all the problems with the different viruses that is just running rampant and so forth.
So, I mean, there is so much that is involved here.
Also, the chemicals that have been used on our produce and everything, the ground is saturated by it and that can be picked up in the DNA of the people from all over the world.
It shows that What happens is the chemicals break down to estrogen and it's causing a problem in possibly sterility in certain people.
Or perhaps in many people.
That then may account for the... I'm always looking at motivation.
Everybody tries to figure out what it is they're doing.
Perhaps these experiments are designed to simply Monitor the degree of deterioration in us.
Could that be?
Yes, that's quite possible.
The biopsies that are often, like scars, often seen on abductees, it may be that they are checking what is going on in our system due to pollution and nuclear waste being emptied in the water or air.
Did you ever during this whole process doubt your own sanity?
Yes.
Yes, very often I did.
Because it was so fantastic what I was going through.
And in the very beginning I was very fearful of it.
And one of the investigators came to me and said, I wanted to stop because it seemed like science fiction.
And he pleaded with me not to stop because uh... he wasn't supposed to say anything but how much of
what i would be period thing
what's happening to people worldwide and i had no knowledge the u f o phenomena at the time
well being a devout christian i would have guessed that you would have run to
your church did you know that
i ran for the bible and uh...
of course i had been reading and studying the bible for many years and
uh... it then when i realized that i would have anything counterfeit
i have jesus why what is this
why am i going to get the what What is happening?
And I began to look into a lot of the prophetic books and could see that Ezekiel's wheel was quite possibly dealing with the UFO phenomena and many other parts in the
Bible show that it is UFO connected.
Well again, I take it you were and probably are now church going?
Well, at this point we have just moved from Connecticut to Virginia and there is a church we are looking into going to.
Well, what I am curious about is how other Christians, your friends, your associates, so forth, reacted to your story
which is now world famous and so everybody knows it.
We'll see you next time.
Well, most of the people that we've come in contact with, Christians, they've been very nice.
I have hundreds of letters from other Christians that write to me and tell me about their experiences but they dare not speak them out loud in the church or even sometimes to their minister.
That's interesting.
Did the elder group that spoke with you tell you what was going to happen or just what was going to happen if we didn't straighten out or How much information did you actually get from them?
Well, the elders told me that they were masters of rings, cycles, and odds, and that they were ambassadors of O. Now, this is hard to explain.
I really couldn't understand everything that they were telling me.
However, at one point of an experience that both Bob and I had, And this was in Meriden, Connecticut.
We had a small cottage.
At one point, we recalled a whirring sound over our bedroom, and it seemed as if Bob did a doppelganger.
In other words, he was in two places at one time.
And he was at the bed, taking off his socks.
I was in the bathroom, brushing my teeth.
And suddenly, when the whirring started, I turned around to look at him, and as I did, he came out of himself.
He was in two places at one time, rushed to the door, stood there, and looked astonished, turned around, and went back into himself.
And we discussed it just a short period of time, and then let it go.
Well, it was years later, under regressive hypnosis, we thought that was it.
And years later, under hypnosis, We realized, more information came out, that we were taken out of our bedroom and up into a craft.
And at that point, a very unusual thing happened where I turned into a light being and there were other light beings there.
And at that point, Bob was taken on another side of the craft and I could see him.
There were two elders standing side by side on both sides of him.
And they took him into another room and this time when we went under regressive hypnosis, Bob recalled certain information and there were messages in that that he might be able to tell you.
Bob, did you recollect it roughly the way she has just explained it?
Oh yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
I just thought it was a very strange incident until undergoing regressive hypnosis.
Uh, the thing is, this is, this was the, uh, particular incident that made me open my eyes to the spiritual aspect of the whole phenomenon.
Because I saw, I did see that he changed into a, uh, with a color just drained out of him.
He became what I saw, a white being that was the form of a human being, but having no, no distinct features.
You can see almost through her as, The others that were on the other side of the craft with her.
All right, Bob and Betty, hold it right there.
We'll be back to you both after the break here at the bottom of the hour.
Betty Andreessen Luca and her husband Bob back in a moment from the high desert.
You're listening to Dreamland.
and I'm Mark Bell.
Thank you.
During my program last week, I've got another one for you now.
Not quite as big, but certainly a strange place.
A 6.4 earthquake has just occurred in a remote region of the Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
The quake centered about 500 miles northwest of Ascension Island, along the Mid-Atlantic Ocean Ridge.
That's, um...
That's absolutely incredible, and it is a place there ought not be an earthquake, but they just had it.
And they show it roughly between the jutting edge of South America and Africa.
It is a remarkable place for an earthquake to have occurred.
And by the way, the follow-up information on the 8.2 is that there were many people killed.
Dozens of people were killed, and an island was just about flattened.
And the regular media began to finally catch up with that story about a day late and millions of dollars short.
Betty and Bob back in a moment.
For the past several months, everybody at Novo, by the way, check them out on the internet at www.maxinet.com forward slash UFO news.
Hope you got that address.
They're hard to get.
All right, back now to Betty and Bob.
Uh, Luca, and uh, hi to you both again.
Uh, and Bob, I think you were saying you saw your wife turn into pure light.
Right, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna run through this rather quickly.
Um, what happened was she was on the opposite side of the craft, and she had joined a group of people with these light beams, and it looked to me like they were playing a game, throwing back geometrical form, rolling up into a ball of light, and so forth.
The next thing I knew, A door had opened behind me and there were two tall beings that took me into a room and began to impart information to me.
First off, I was told that the people on the other side were going through a learning process to advance their knowledge on another plane, that I was not there because I was not advanced enough spiritually, and I also fully agree to that, that it was a privilege for me even to be there.
Now from this point I was given information regarding the spirit.
I was told, and again this is a very brief version, That the Spirit transcends time and dimension.
The ultimate goal is to come closer and closer to the Creator.
That our life experience is recorded from birth to death, including our deepest feelings and emotions, as well as our physical activities.
That illness, sorrow, and distress actually serve a purpose in a larger order of things that is not readily apparent to those of us on this plane of existence.
And the evil, and this was a surprise, the evil, although the negative aspect on the
earthly plane is necessary and again serves a purpose.
Now this might be over simplifying it, but basically we are all given a free will by
the Creator and all of us have the ability to do good or evil.
It is our choice.
Now here is another thing that I was told that we are advancing rapidly as far as technology,
but are developing far behind spiritually.
And they said that we are developing things that are harmful to ourselves as well as our
Right.
And one thing that comes to mind, I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with, is Project H.A.R.P.
As a matter of fact, I did the show I did, Friday night, Saturday morning, was with Dr. Nick Begich, and we spent five hours on Project H.A.R.P., so yes.
Okay, I have one question regarding Project H.A.R.P.
Now, they're playing with the ionosphere, and if they are wrong, if they misjudge, I have no idea.
We spent a lot of time on that exact question Saturday morning.
I have absolutely no idea.
It's not just there either.
We're experimenting genetically.
I have no idea. We spent a lot of time on that exact question Saturday morning. I have
absolutely no idea. It's not just there either. We're experimenting genetically. For example,
there was in San Francisco recently announced after the fact a young man with AIDS was given
a baboon's immune system.
Well, they tried to anyway.
And I have great compassion for those with AIDS, but I would have liked, you know, it's kind of like they gave us a story and they said, well, here's what we've done.
Yes, there may be repercussions for mankind should a disease be transferred, but we think the risk is minimal.
Well, I wish somebody had asked me before they did it.
Exactly.
In the long run, we all pay for it, one way or another.
Well, that's right.
And there's another concern I've got.
There's something going on in this world now, summing it briefly, that I call the quickening.
And you heard the earthquake report I just read.
Yes.
And the big earthquake in Indonesia, the big one north of Japan before that.
Something is arguably going on.
Well, I think it is something to do also with the HAARP project, even though they say no, it isn't.
I think that the extremely low frequencies they're sending out are getting into the electromagnetic sphere that surrounds our Earth and already a portion of the Antarctica has broken away some time ago.
I heard about it, yes.
I mean, and I think it's the scalar waves caused by this are probably entering the magnetic poles and going down into the core and causing A lot of the eruptions on the Earth.
Well let me tell you, Dr. Begich said that he has got a document which says that NASA was able to detect a symbiotic relationship during a large Alaskan earthquake in the ionosphere.
Now when you think that one over a little bit, and then you begin considering shooting a hole in or heating up the ionosphere, I don't know if it sounds like such a good idea, right?
No.
It causes a lot of strange storms and also a lot of electrical storms where people are seeing bright lights and so forth.
I think this is being caused not by the UFO phenomena, but because of the HAARP project.
Also, they mentioned that with Project HARP, they could use it to bounce X-rays off the ionosphere into the Earth to see if enemy countries are hiding below the surface of the Earth on nuclear weapons and so forth.
But my question again is, what happens to the people that happen to be standing between the surface of the Earth?
That's exactly the question I asked Saturday morning.
In other words, to get into the Earth, it's got to pass through us.
Right.
And we resonate at 8 hertz.
And these extremely low frequencies can cause even death.
It can cause cancer.
It can cause the mind to go haywire.
It really is extremely dangerous.
You would think that as we get closer to Project HAARP cranking up to really big power, or other conditions worsen, the incidence of warnings or messages from those people that talk to you would increase.
In other words, they would become increasingly concerned as we keep going in the wrong direction.
That's right.
I think that has been happening by the number of new people that you see entering the phenomena
that are finally coming forth and telling their stories that are well documented by
credible people.
I think you are seeing more and more of that.
Do people tend to come to you with their stories?
Yes, they do.
Because they can't talk to anyone else.
And I have thousands of letters.
So does Ray Fowler have boxes and boxes of letters from people all over the world describing their encounters and experiences.
Which they cannot talk to their family or their clergy or anyone.
They feel as if they'd be ridiculed.
And because we have experienced these things, they have written to us and told us about them.
At least the tips are off their chest.
Many of these people are highly credible.
They can be doctors, psychiatrists, military.
I've spoken personally to people from every branch of the military, Air Force, Marines, Army, that have had experiences and so forth.
And they can't really put their name to a statement because, for obvious reasons, there goes pension, jail, whatever.
Sure.
Oh no, it ruins reputations.
And if you've got a position, if you're a pilot, for example, you dare not report a UFO.
That's right.
Pilots just don't do that.
Even sometimes with everybody in the cockpit having seen it, and they still will not report it.
And I cannot say I blame them.
Raymond Fowler is doing a lot of research that is beginning to go down a different avenue that melds together the physical abduction experience with NDEs or near-death experiences with many similarities.
Would you agree with that?
Do you think he's on the right track?
Yes, I do.
I think that, again, it is the spiritual part of our being.
Every one of us are going to face that at the time of our demise.
Apparently some of us prior to as well.
That's right.
That's right.
And I think that being brought back is allowing people to see that there is life after death.
Do you have any guesses about its form?
Pardon?
Do you have any guesses or information about its form?
In other words, after death.
Do you think that we will meet with the elders?
Do you think we will see these people?
Or do you think it will be an entirely, perhaps the soul, just taking a different road?
Well, I think that positively there will be light and I believe that Christ will be there for us.
Do you think that Christ and God preside over worlds of beings?
Most definitely.
And I believe that Christ is within every person that is born.
The Lord says in the Word of God that the light is within each person that is born on earth.
So I believe that each one of us have the Christ present.
However, it's what we choose that either allows the Lord to live within us or die.
What sort of What challenge did you go through mentally, Betty, trying to fit all this together, your devout Christianity, with this experience that would seem for many to conflict with it?
I had a very difficult time at first, especially because of family and friends, they being Christian also.
But it was happening to me.
I had to face it, and as I said, it was difficult.
Of course, went to the Word of God and looked upon Jesus' Word that He said, greater things shalt thou do than I have done.
And it's hard to imagine how we could have greater things happening to us than that, what our Lord has gone through.
Also, a lot of the Christians feeling that this phenomena is demonistic, they must realize the opposite side is still there, which is the angelic host.
Sure.
And folks are at work for their master.
Without some change in direction, do you have any idea how long it will be before some catastrophic event sort of does a reset the way you do when you push a reset button on your computer?
Well, a lot of people are feeling the year 2000, but I don't I feel that.
I feel that we will go through a lot of troublous times and a lot of terrible things with wars, of course, like the Word of God has said, wars and rumors of wars and upheavals and weather conditions and so forth all before it happens, but I don't feel as if any person can name the day or hour that it will finally Well, we certainly have been having strange weather.
You moved from Connecticut to Virginia, and I'm sure Virginia this year probably feels like Connecticut.
It does, it sure does.
I think we took it with us.
Exactly.
We need to go further south or west.
Well, you'd have to go a ways because they had freeze well down into Florida, and my mom lives out at the end of Long Island, and they have never seen a winter like this.
Right, right.
Uh, has it begun?
Well, I think that it has been, uh, all the, uh, troubles that have been happening all over the world, uh, it already has begun.
Yes, these last times, uh, and troublous times, but I don't feel as if the end is going to happen like many people have been predicting in the year 2000 because our calendars are just not that accurate.
All right.
One of you, I think it was you Bob, said something earlier about there being a reason for humans to suffer.
Now, there are many people with very debilitating, painful diseases that are terminal.
I've had discussions with people close to me that I love, not because I have a terminal disease, just as an academic discussion.
I've said, you know, if I had a terrible, terrible terminal disease, why, I just might take the easy way out.
And this person who will go unnamed said, oh no.
No, no.
You're meant to go through that.
You must.
That's right.
You must go through that.
That's exactly correct.
It is.
Why?
Okay, it's like, how can I put it?
In other words, as I said, everything is recorded.
And as far as Pain, sorrow, and distress.
If you're looking at it from the earthly viewpoint, from our viewpoint, which is, my God, this is terrible.
Right.
If you're looking at it from the big, I hate to use the term, but the big picture, okay?
That's fine.
What it is, is a testing of the spirit, of the will, and this will advance you in the next plane.
Although it's hard to look at here when you're hurting real bad, you know.
And not only that, it is all the people and family involved with the individual that might be going through a terrible time.
It might be those people, it's their time to pray for them or look after them.
It may not only be the person that is suffering, but those around them that have lessons to learn from them.
And love especially.
Love is the greatest of all.
And what is so sad today, there are so many children and adult children that have their parents in rest homes
where really they should take that responsibility themselves.
One of the things I think with our whole society in particular is people over the years have
forgotten how to be responsible for themselves and their actions.
This in the long run is very important.
On balance as you two look at humankind's progression or deterioration depending on
how you look at it.
Are we beginning to correct the path we're on, or do you think, and I've used this metaphor so many times, that like the airplane that's halfway across the Atlantic, it goes past the point of no return, do you think the little red light in the cockpit that says point of no return has already come on?
Well, my wife and I, I think differ on this.
Mankind as a whole, I don't think we're going to make it.
I think small numbers will.
But I really don't, as mankind as a whole, no, I think that we're too greedy.
So the little red light's on?
Uh-huh.
And Betty, I take it you're half full glass on that?
Well, I feel that there will be many that will show that love, that will find the truth and the light and the Lord, and will help so many different people.
And in the UFO phenomenon, there are many people that are feeling, The reason for their abduction or encounter is because in the latter days that they will come together and they will be able to help others.
I believe also that like Bob said, the greed is there and this is why a lot of governments all over the world, they're interested in the military, power, power, power.
It's such a power struggle and this is half of our problem.
At the individual, single level, how does Betty or how does Bob affect what the governments do?
It seems impossible, and I hate to agree with Bob, and I hate to be negative, but I think that it's gone too far, and I think whatever's going to come next, I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but whatever's going to come next is going to come.
Well, there's going to be changes, that's for certain.
But there are also people, now a lot of people feel, you know, the breakdown of the government and everything, but this would be a terrible thing because there are some good people in government.
It's just that the general populace has got to get more involved and I know a lot of people feel as if, well what's the use of voting?
You know, we can't do anything about it because a lot of them already have their men in place and everything for what they want to do with the One Worlders and so forth.
But we can't give up like that.
We have to fight for the truth.
That's a wonderful, cheerful point in which to end it.
Even though Bob and I basically agree.
I want to thank you both for being with us.
Thank you very much for having us.
Okay, take care.
Okay, you too.
God bless you.
Bye-bye now.
And you as well.
That's Betty Andreessen Luca and her husband Bob.
And I would guess that would be one of the most famous abduction stories documented.
It's in Raymond Fowler's books, culminating in The Watchers 2, available now, bookstands everywhere.
So, there you've got it, ladies and gentlemen.
There's the story, laid out in front of you by Raymond Fowler.
And the abductee herself.
We'll be back with more.
This is Dreamland.
Now, all the way back to Philadelphia.
Everybody's on the East Coast tonight.
It's Linda Moulton Howell, Emmy Award winning, uh, well, reporter, I guess.
Linda, how should I introduce you?
I always lose track.
Emmy-winning, I know you've done documentaries, right?
Yeah, well, I've been a television producer for a long time, and one of the programs that I produce that a lot of people listening might know is UFO Report Sightings on Fox.
It became the Sighting Series.
Sure.
And prior to that, my work had been in non-fiction documentaries focused largely on environmental problems and medicine and science.
Which is how I got into trying to find out what was happening to all of the animals worldwide in the unusual animal death called animal mutilation.
And that led you down a very strange path?
Yes, I never ever would have thought that about 16 years into the future from my first investigation in Colorado of what was happening to the animals that I would be sitting here today Looking at such an enormous and wide variety of subjects, which I'm willing to talk about any of it with you tonight that you'd like in this third hour.
But I thought, since I normally am not at third hour, that I would at least give this audience an update on some things that have been happening this past week and a story like I usually do at the top.
I just want to touch on, I'll ask you one question.
It relates to what Ray Fowler And Betty Andreessen, Luca said.
Right.
It is that they feel that the reason or the motivation for the abductions and possibly the mutilations and the seemingly genetic experimentation that's going on, I mean we're always looking for motivation here and why.
Right.
Is that the Earth is slowly deteriorating.
That these beings, whoever they are, are from another dimension as opposed to another Right.
planet, physical planet, they're from another dimension, and that our fate and our Earth
now in great trouble is symbiotically related to theirs.
And certainly if that's true, it would go to the motivation for all the medical experiments,
for trying to understand what's going on with the animals and the human beings that are
now on Earth, and what we are doing to ourselves.
Right.
And in my first book, An Alien Harvest, I suggested based on abduction cases that involved
animal mutilations and humans being taken someplace anyway by beings that were trying
to explain what they were doing, that it appeared to be coming down to a survival issue.
And since then there have been many more cases implying that that is what the crux of the problem is.
Someone's survival out there.
And there is a new book out called Cosmic Voyage by Courtney Brown.
He is a professor of political science at Emory University in Atlanta.
And it is a remarkable book.
Somewhere in the future, you and I want to sign some combination or we should interview him.
His book is based on using the discipline of remote viewing.
And the text basically is a discovery that Who is involved with our planet are time travelers from the future who have a major survival problem.
Yes.
And that this genetic harvesting now is for their present, which would be a distant future, and that we're all somehow all tied together.
And I find this especially interesting.
People can argue all they want to about remote viewing.
The fact is that something extraordinary is happening on the planet.
Things are interacting with humans and plants and animals.
And in even military encounters, where I have transcripts of interviews, even if they have not been made public, this issue of something coming from another time, which could be also called another dimension, is one of the prevalent themes.
And I think that probably Our government, as they have begun to discover some of this over time, probably felt that the term UFO and extraterrestrials was far more comprehensible to the world than travelers from a distant future.
Sure.
And that may be another part of this story that they haven't wanted anyone to discuss, but, you know, we are all discussing it, and we are getting to the end of this century, and I think that people are ready to hear this.
Well, we all know that the government has in fact an ongoing, I guess, program with remote viewing.
Now, they may have their own specific national security reasons for it, or maybe they have made discoveries that they have not even hinted at yet in this whole program.
Yeah, and it's like so many things that our government does.
I really am not in a mode to attack them because in some ways I have great sympathy for people who have been writing this very difficult story and have felt that at least keep people in the public innocent of all of this so that there would not be panic.
I mean, that's been the most common explanation.
But it's getting to a point where their reasons for doing what they do, for example, like Putting out, perhaps, to muddy the waters around remote viewing, that Central Intelligence Agency report that it was only 15% effective a few months ago, that may be a way of diffusing public attention to remote viewing, when in fact remote viewing may be a tool that our government uses on a regular basis.
They just don't want people to realize how important and powerful a tool it is.
Remarkable.
I know you've got a report.
Does the length lend itself to doing it before the bottom of the hour?
Well, let's see here.
12-18.
I'll tell you what I'll do.
No, let's do it.
I can give you some news updates, and then when we come back, I will share with you a rather remarkable story.
Alright.
Whatever you've got in terms of news, we can use.
And this past week there were new reports of cattle mutilations again back in Geraldine and Albertville, Alabama where there were several cases in 1993 and I went down to do the documentary Strange Harvest 1993.
We were able to get grass and tissue samples from a cow and a calf just a few days ago and in a couple of weeks I'll give an update about what we find.
And last Thursday, while I was talking on the phone with photographer Eddie Visconde from the El Viscero newspaper in Puerto Rico, he got a call about another attack in Canovinas, where I was in January.
Oh boy.
A woman heard parakeets fluttering in a cage on her porch.
Both birds were lying on the bottom of the cage, alive.
But each had its right leg cut off.
What?
Yeah, this is really bizarre, and it gets even stranger.
Outside, four rabbits in a cage were dead.
The male had three puncture holes on its chest in the formation of a triangle.
The other three female rabbits had more random punctures.
And then, the part of the cage had been violently torn apart.
According to Condé, who went to photograph the animals, none of the holes bled.
These attacks do not make any sense, he and I talked about.
What would take a leg from each parakeet and leave the birds alive in the bottom of the cage?
What would kill animals only to take biopsy punches of tissue over and over and over again?
And then, the question that everybody asks, and no one knows for certain, Is there any connection between the animal deaths in Puerto Rico and UFOs?
Well, photographer Eddie Conde told me that back in November, in a city called Vega Baja, northwest of San Juan, a seven-year-old girl was standing in the front yard of her house when she saw what she called a flying saucer, the sky.
And then she said she saw a red light come out of it, and it struck her arm, causing pain.
Conde interviewed the family and said the little girl still had bumps on her arm where she said the light hurt her skin.
The next day, 14 of the family's chickens were all found dead with puncture wounds.
Everyone in Puerto Rico is asking the same question that I and others have asked for a long time.
Who or what is killing and mutilating animals on this planet and why?
And what is this chupacabras creature That some people have seen up close and personal and it doesn't really fit much of anything as much as I've tried to match it up to primates that exist.
Primate monkeys have tails except for the chimp, but it doesn't seem to sound like him.
It has wraparound eyes that one woman eight feet away said looked like.
Solid, dark, gray, jello.
Very liquidy and wet looking.
Great.
Big wraparound eyes.
Great.
And that's not a chimp.
And... And Linda, what do the... Have there been postmortems on these chickens, autopsies, looking into any chemical, any chemical anything induced or blood taken out or what do we know?
Yes, I talked with Dr. Carlos Soto on Friday at great length.
He has had several animals brought to his veterinarian clinic, and he said that two of the strangest were one with a guinea hen, that when he laid it on its back, it had this three-pronged, triangular-shaped puncture wound, just like what they found on the big male rabbit Thursday.
Right.
And it was on the breast of the guinea hen, and this was interesting.
When he opened up the bird in knee crossing, he said, in the chest, Separate from the three triangular punches, there were four holes that did not seem to correspond with any surface trauma where the bird's feathers or skin were.
He couldn't find bruises or punctures, and he still doesn't know how these four holes were made.
He also clarified that on the birds that he has examined, the puncture holes have gone right through the feathers, the skin, The muscle tissue and in some cases even down deeper into bone.
This was exactly the description in Canary Islands off the coast of Africa back in the 70s.
Any chemical analysis or anything odd found there?
It cost money, a lot of more money to do toxicology and chemistry and unfortunately no one there has any additional funds to do anything This Dr. Soto has examined the animals that people have brought to him because he's very curious.
He would like to understand.
When he has something, he did send some tissue to Dorado, which is a laboratory on the north side of the island.
But as I understand it, no one, including Dr. Soto, has been getting reports back from Dorado.
And Dorado has also sent some tissue to Roche and Ames Labs in the United States.
Really?
I have come back to someone and exist.
I haven't been able to find anyone who knows the data.
And what it boils down to is a veterinarian, a very conscientious man, who has seen enough animals and says there is something highly unusual and he does not know how to match up any natural explanation with what he has been seeing.
Well, let me ask this, Linda.
I know that in the past you've been involved with foundations That give grants for study in these kinds of areas, domestically in this country, and look at some cattle mutilations, that sort of thing.
Yeah, about one year in 1994, John Altshuler and I had a grant.
Okay, well, so there's no chance that money could be directed toward getting samples sent to a place where we could be damn sure we'd get a good report.
Well, that's what I and some others have been hoping.
We do need another larger research grant in order to do this effectively.
And I don't know if it is going to come into place, but that's exactly what we have been hoping would happen.
And when I was in Puerto Rico for those 10 days, it was an effort to see if we could, in fact, build stronger bridges between what's happening there and our efforts in the United States.
to research more scientifically and medically and we are trying to get
hair samples, tissue samples and graft samples from Puerto Rico now
even if some of us are just paying it for ourselves so it is a challenge in all of this
to have the funds to do all this correctly and in Puerto Rico they have a serious problem of funding
I would think that you would have bumped into some sort of governmental
In other words, they ought to be interested at the government level in Puerto Rico or here in what the hell is going on.
Yes, and the Department of Agriculture has put out its own request to certain people in the University of Puerto Rico Medical Center.
There are political people like the mayors of some of the cities that have been affected.
The civil defense is very involved on the island.
But when you meet and talk with those people, And remembering that Puerto Rico is an island which essentially does not have many resources.
Those people are in the same situation that I and others who try to do our work on our own and we are not officially funded quote unquote by a legislature or a government to do it.
They're in the same position and they do the best they can and that's where we really We do need some kind of a more organized and financed effort for it to stake out almost on that island and see what more we can learn as a team of professionals.
We've got to pause right there.
It's a good place to hold it.
Linda Moulton Howell is our guest.
back in a moment.
I'm still thinking about parakeet legs.
That one bothered me.
I know, it bothers me too.
And if the story that we might be dealing with beings coming from a future timeline who have a serious survival problem, and they've come back to gather genetic material from this planet, to watch over this planet, whatever the scenario, Then it's possible that everything that is happening is for a good and better reason than we can imagine.
Right.
But, back in the 1970s, when animal mutilations were occurring worldwide on a regular basis, including the Vampire of Moca in Puerto Rico, again, it was there 27 years ago, there was a rash of unusual killings in the Snohomish-Washington area, where Bigfoot had also been seen and has been seen since.
Uh, even prints, uh, have been seen and cast made.
Uh, this recently made man had an encounter in March 1977 that illustrates how the UFO phenomena can camouflage itself with the sound of a helicopter that turns into a UFO, or can use holographic-like images to frighten people, or perhaps, as in Betty Lucas, uh, experience, to inspire her.
Remember the Phoenix Bird?
Metaphor that we've had a lot of discussions with her about, and whether it was holographic or placed in her mind, it was not real in the sense that we would say that we could touch the floor, but it seemed to be trying to teach her something.
Wouldn't you agree?
Absolutely.
And this appears to be part of this phenomenon, which always stuns, confuses, and completely disorients humans at the time.
And later, they realized, and in this case with this man, that these beings did something to frighten this man, perhaps to keep him away from them, but he was not hurt.
Now, the man preferred to remain anonymous, but gave me permission to replay excerpts of our conversation on Dreamland.
Excellent.
His story began around 3 o'clock in the afternoon when he was cutting underbrush from the swampy forest behind his house.
From nowhere a small being appeared dressed in a sparkly metallic blue bodysuit.
The eyewitness thought that the being looked like a four foot tall old man with pale skin that appeared to be scarred like burn scars.
And Scott Hopkins and others have had drawings of abductees who have drawn the surface of some of the beings that they've encountered as looking like it was a pock with scars.
Now what follows on tape Is the eyewitness's account of what happened next.
Yeah, so he stepped in front.
And it's like he gets all blurry.
And it's like he's doing a, it's like he's vibrating.
It's like his features are contorted.
And that's when I got pumped.
And of course, this all happened in seconds.
And it's like, He's standing there, vibrating, somewhat like he's doing a jitterbug or something.
Vibrating away.
And down through the trees comes another guy.
And this other guy, while he's coming down, it sounds like a hive of bees.
And he's got a metallic blue uniform on.
And if you was back there in that clip, You'd wonder how did those guys get down?
Because those big trees, the limbs would actually overlap each other in places.
You know what I'm saying?
Right.
It looked like this thing was inside some kind of a tunnel of air.
And looking back on it, like a... If I was to say what it was, it looked to me like kind of a technologically advanced form of an elevator.
In other words, I feel like there was something maybe a mile up in the sky that has technology to make a wind tunnel.
And these things go up and down inside of a wind tunnel.
Because when the second guy comes down, like they say coming down, it sounds just like a height of a knee.
And so coming from the south headed north, there's a noise I thought it was kind of like a in some ways like a real smooth sounding helicopter to have a kind of a high-pitched whine to it so it gets up to practically above our heads and the motor cuts and I hear some popping sounds and I look up and here's a flying saucer and it's dropping like a ton of lift and I'm thinking that thing is crashing and I think that before this this point
I didn't have any fear.
Anyway, that thing is dropping.
And it probably gets to about, I don't know, 20 or 30 feet above these big fir trees out there.
And it lets out a noise.
And it goes, ooooh, like that.
And the wind from that thing, when it did that, it stopped in the air there, above the treetops.
And the wind from it when it did that, it was flipping these big fir trees back and forth so violently I thought that Thompson was going to snap on them and fall down on them.
I mean these trees just flipping around violently and my clothes are flopping back and forth and my hair was flying all around and that thing up there you can hear air coming out of it and you can hear kind of like a bearing on the outside and to me it kind of reminded me of a train going along a track I can hear a clickety-click, clickety-click, clickety-click.
Mm-hmm.
And that flying saucer is over my head, and they're probably, I'd estimate, maybe 50, 60 feet away.
Mm-hmm.
It's over my head, and it's over their head.
Mm-hmm.
And it's up their cover.
How big?
Uh, well, in diameter, I'd say, I don't know, 50, 60, 70, 80 feet, something like that.
Okay.
And at that treetop level?
Well, it's probably 20 to 30 feet above the tops of the tallest tree there.
Okay.
It's up there and it's like they're staring over at me.
And it's just like I'm standing still and it's almost like I'm scared to even swallow.
And I'm thinking if I stand real still, maybe they didn't even see me, you know.
And anyway, somewhere in the situation and this really sounds like a BS Sean it's like over their way these specks collected together and like it's like they collected together in the shape of a wolf with horns and a long tail and these specks collected together and they moved towards me real fast it's like I couldn't even duck
And it's like, when they get to me, it's like I got an electric shock.
Which really makes it sound like a B.S.
shock.
No.
I know it does.
No.
No, it doesn't.
Um, you saw, the color of the sparkle, or the gloop, can you describe the color of what it was that suddenly formed in the air out of which the wolf with the, um, the tail came?
Well, it's like it didn't have any color.
To me it's like probably in the old days when you would watch a black and white television.
You mean it had a black or like an X-ray look to it?
Well, I don't feel like it was a real animal.
But it was like you were seeing a picture form in the air and then come at you.
To me it was kind of like transparent.
Like specks collected together.
I can't even explain it.
And so this object, or this, we'll call it these particles, formed into this image, is it coming towards you?
Yeah, it's like it's on me.
I mean, it's like they collected it and it was on me.
That's all I can say.
Okay, and then what happened?
It seems to me, like when this took place, it's like I felt like I was being laughed at.
Like maybe there's cackles or something.
So Art, I have never heard a better description of both the camouflage of sound and then what appears to be some kind of either a projected image, in this case it seemed to be outside of his mind and projected at him, that has been described in the literature but seem to be used in this case to either keep him away
and at the same time convey information that they were making fun of him
a wolf with horns and a tail is like some of the mythological characters of history in a
funny strange way no, you know, as I listened
I thought his story was very credible oh yes
and in fact, Art, to back this up last night I talked with a man who worked for the sheriff's
office in that community in the 70s
He knows this man.
He backed up the whole story.
He was out there.
He interviewed him.
He took photographs of strange, he said very strange tracks in print in that swamp.
He said that at the time that this man was reporting To the Sheriff's Office, the fact that not only was this happening out there, but the whole series of animal mutilations, which I'll get to in a minute, but he said people all over that valley were calling the Sheriff's Office reporting all kinds of odd lights and odd sounds and encounters with strange things and I think that this man is describing exactly what happened to him and it underscores
That this phenomenon, whether it comes from the future, another dimension, another solar system in this galaxy, or another galaxy beyond, that it's way of communicating with itself, and the way that translates to us, is very different, and that these uses of holographic images, almost theatrical images, it was in the Betty Andresen case, now Betty Andresen-Luca, That kind of theatrical, metaphorical production was very much a part of that case also.
Absolutely.
Fascinating.
You said there was more?
Yes.
After this, because this story had so many parts to it, I thought tonight I would just convince that these beings then just walk off.
They have absolutely shocked him to his core.
He is standing there numb.
They walk off, he thinks it's all over, and here comes a bigfoot, 8 foot tall, 4 inch long, solid black hair, doesn't even look at him, and just goes striding right by him, standing there, numb as can be, and continues right behind those bees.
Oh boy.
Now, the man who worked with the Sheriff's Office told me tonight, and this is the part this man, uh, who did not know, he said that he took photographs of deer that were found hanging with excisions of the rectum and genitals and other parts were found hanging on trees in that area back in 77.
Oh, brother.
Now, are they related to the Bigfoot phenomena?
One of our listeners this year, I have never done this interview yet, and he was an elderly gentleman who sent me a drawing, also from the 70s, and said that he had been out hunting and that he saw a sort of hairy, big, primate-looking creature carrying a deer in its arms and watched it put the deer over a branch on a tree.
Oh my goodness.
So, are we dealing with a, some kind of another intelligence that has Bigfoot working for it also on our planet?
That's a big question mark.
I don't know.
Uh, it is a big question mark.
Uh, or is it just some, is Bigfoot one more manifestation of these beings?
Well, it certainly leaves tracks.
There's a colleague of mine in Illinois who has been studying this for a long time and he has photographs of a plaster of Paris footprints left in many parts of this country that range from the so-called three foot, which I think is more consistent with the Yeti over in the other part of the world in the Mount Everest area.
Correct.
To deep prints.
I mean, they're huge, they're long, they're obviously something that's heavy and deep.
And that would have to be a physical creature that would leave those tracks.
But how do you reconcile that with the rancher in Montana in 1976 who shot with a .30-06 rifle at an 8 foot tall hairy creature that he said looked like a big primate standing in front of him.
And when he shot, That creature disappeared in a flash of light.
I don't reconcile that, and I wouldn't try.
Linda, we are at the end of it again.
Tell everybody how to get hold of you, how to get your publications.
There are contact numbers, so give them out.
All right.
Thanks, Art.
It's been a pleasure to be on for an hour with some of this tonight, and I would look forward to hearing from people.
I have a new mailing address.
It is Post Office Box 300.
At Jamison, Pennsylvania.
J-A-M-I-S-O-N.
Zip code 18929-0300.
And the 800 toll free number for information about my work is 800-707-9993.
And the 800 toll free number for information about my work is 800-707-9993.
That's 800-707-9993.
And for people who like to fax, it's 215-422-9232.
Alright, Linda, you're a darling, and I guess next week at the regular time?
Yes, at the regular time, and I'll have a very special report from New York City on a new program upcoming about the mysterious origin of man.
I'm looking forward to it.
Thank you, Linda, and good night in Philadelphia.
Alright everybody, that's it.
I've got one item here and that is my book.
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