Betty Luca and Raymond Fowler first met in 1976 when Dr. J. Allen Hynek shared her 1967 abduction case, involving entities moving unnaturally through walls and hypnosis-confirmed memories spanning childhood to adulthood. Linda Moulton Howe later connects these events to animal mutilations—like cattle in Alabama or rabbits in Puerto Rico with non-bleeding wounds—and theories of time-traveling beings from a dying future, using remote viewing and genetic material for survival. Both warn of suppressed research, such as HAARP’s ionosphere manipulation, and emphasize humanity’s spiritual decline as a threat, urging individuals to fight for truth despite government corruption. [Automatically generated summary]
I guess the way to begin is to begin, and that is to go back and find out how you begin, how did you meet up with and learn about Ms. Luca?
unidentified
Well, it was back in 1976, and the Massachusetts Mufon Group was looking for a good close encounter of the fourth kind to look into, and Dr. Jalen Hynek, who was chief scientific consultant to the Air Force's signed grudge in Blue Book, forwarded Betty's letter to us.
We sent an investigator to talk to Betty to see what kind of a person she was, and then instigated an investigation that lasted between 1977 and 1978 and resulted in a three-volume, 528-page report for peer review.
Betty, of course, was abducted from her home on January 25th, 1967, and underwent a remarkable abduction experience, which is paralleled by many other cases since then.
If I might back up a little bit, when you go and you investigate a case like this or any other, what kind of questions do you ask?
Have you learned to ask certain key questions that will help you determine fairly quickly what you've got on your hands?
unidentified
I guess the first thing we did was do a character reference check on Betty to see if she was of good repute.
And that worked out very well.
Had her fill out forms and interrogated her as regarding how much she could remember.
Basically, all she could remember consciously and her father could remember was she was in the kitchen and her children and parents were out in the living room and a bright orange, reddish-orange light flashed through the pantry window and the lights began blinking off and on and then went out.
And Betty's father rushed in to see what would happen and he went to the pantry window and saw a bright light out in the field and then saw these strange creatures coming toward the house.
They really weren't walking.
They were sort of floating up and down.
They stopped at the window and looked at him and that's the only thing he could remember.
And then they came right through the wall, through the door, and put Betty's family into a state, I guess for want of a better term, suspended animation, and convinced her to come with them out to a craft that was in the field, which she did.
They floated up into the craft and the smaller craft went up and entered a larger craft and she was given the typical physical examination, etc.
We put her under hypnosis, her daughter under hypnosis.
Her father didn't want anything to do with it, but they both relived complimentary accounts of what had happened.
We were interested in having her sit down with a psychiatrist and have a psychiatric evaluation, which she did.
She volunteered it, actually.
She is a very devout fundamentalist Christian, and this was no part of her belief system, and she thought she was going crazy when these memories surfaced.
So she actually asked if we could do this.
And of course, we were pleased because we were embarrassed to ask her if she would like to sit down with someone like that.
And she passed in flying colors, and she also took a lie detector test, as did her daughter.
When all is said and done, we were convinced, at least, that she and her daughter believed that this had happened to her.
And of course, since then, many of the abduction experiences that have been reported parallel many aspects of her account.
This was just the beginning, though.
We found that she had had abduction experiences way back in childhood as we continued to probe her background.
So there was a four books based on four what I call phase investigations between 1977 and 1994.
Okay, Ray, I want to stop you at this point in the investigation and tell you what's coming up.
You really already know about it.
I got a panicked call, and I mean panicked from Bud Hopkins Friday.
And he said that NOVA is coming out and doing a series on his work and that of John Mack at Harvard.
And basically, it's going to be a hit piece.
And it's going to basically try to rip to pieces the kind of work they've done, charging false memory syndrome, induced memories by the examiner, that sort of thing.
If somebody were to come and examine Betty's case with regard to the kind of examination done, would they find room to make those kind of charges or what kind of safety was used in the investigation?
unidentified
Well, no leading questions were asked under hypnosis.
Basically, we just let Betty relive the account and sort of provided some comfort to her when things got real rough.
But the basic thing is to not ask leading questions and just let the person relive the abduction account.
Now, Betty was like a blank blackboard.
I mean, she had no interest in unidentified flying objects, and UFO abductions were fairly unknown back then to most people.
So I thought she was a good case to investigate because she put a religious spin on her experience.
This is all she knew.
And she thought, well, this must be something to do with her religion, which I thought was great because she didn't interpret it as an extraterrestrial experience or something like that.
So it was like taking A child, really, and probing the mind of someone that really didn't have false memories.
You know, a UFO buff that read an awful lot of things about abductions, which, of course, really didn't exist in those days.
The Interrupted Journey had been published and so forth.
But again, she wasn't interested.
I think that no matter how vigorous UFO abduction research is, and the Yalagash abductions, I think we did an excellent job on in documenting that particular case, no matter what you do, there are going to be people out there that are equal in authority to Dr. John Mack, for example, who take the opposite side.
They don't believe it happened, and they start off with a premise it couldn't have happened, so they come up with alternate explanations for it, which is good.
But the problem with something like NOVA is, and they did this with the UFO phenomenon several years back, they will interview people, and they did Dr. Hynek, for example.
They will take things out of context as regarding what they said, and then they will put their own spin on it to come up with their own premise.
Oh, yes, I've got ten pages from Bud of exactly that sort of thing that they have apparently done.
He's extremely upset.
And John Mack, of course, doesn't need this either.
unidentified
No, he doesn't.
And what they should really do is have each person, you know, tell the audience about their research, what they've done, and so forth, and the pros and the cons, and then let them have it out with each other and have a rather sort of a refereed debate rather than sucking these people into something that they think is going to help their research and then finding out that what they're doing is sort of trying to slam the door on it.
I think the abduction experiences have become so well known through a number of TV programs and books like my own and Bud Hopkins and Doc, Dr. Mack and so forth, that someone out there, conservative science, whatever you want to call it, decides that something has to be done.
So they get, just like they did with the UFO phenomena several years ago, get some psychiatrists together and so forth and put them on Nova, which is a very respected program, and use that as a vehicle to try to squelch all this stuff.
Well, the tip-off, of course, is that it's driven by an agenda.
They have decided prior to the program exactly what kind of program they're going to do.
And by hook or crook, they're going to make it come out that way.
unidentified
It's a shame that Bud and John didn't realize that from the outset and try to get something on paper where they would, I don't know what they did, but make sure that what they wanted to say would be on TV.
Unfortunately, they'll editorialize it according to their whim.
Well, that's the problem with television, Ray, is that you can even take something in context and then bring on somebody else with another piece of tape directly behind that person, showing the first to be seemingly ridiculous.
Paraphysical, would that mean a visit of the fourth type in which there were actual physical contact or you were taken aboard a ship, or what does it mean?
unidentified
Well, basically, many of the UFO reports that we've been getting over the years involve some very strange, what you might call paranormal phenomena or abilities associated with them.
And many researchers don't know what to do with this stuff.
They're hardcore, nuts-and-bolt hypothesis researchers that feel that UFOs are hardware from another solar system.
And so a lot of this information just gets tossed out as frivolous or something that has nothing to do with the subject.
And I decided that it was time to look at this and publish something on it.
Paraphysical basically means something that can behave as if it had mass and weight on one end of the spectrum, but on the other end of the spectrum doesn't seem to have either.
For example, you have UFOs that can take right-angle turns with no curved radius.
You have UFOs appear visually on radar at point A, and then suddenly sort of disappear And reappear at point B with no flight path between the somewhere, then come back from somewhere from another dimension or whatever.
Then you have UFOs that land and they exhibit mass and weight.
You have tripod marks, quadruphed marks.
Penetrometers indicate that there were tons sitting on those struts or whatever made the marks.
But you have a paradox here.
You have something that behaves as if it had mass and weight at some times, and other times it appears that it's weightless.
The falling leaf motion, for example, is almost like something that is almost lighter than air, wobbling and hovering on its axis, bobbing on the air like it, like a cork bobbing on the water.
But there are a lot of other things that are curious about the UFO.
You have not only them appearing and disappearing visually and on radar, you have their entities, like in the Andreasman case, pass through solid structures with ease, you know, through walls, through doors.
You have them, the entities appear as a ball of light and then become an entity and then disappear within the ball of light.
And these are reports now.
I'm saying if you take these things at face value.
What I'm doing is investigating that and saying that there's a lot of evidence for this.
I know Dr. Hynek and Dr. Valley were coming to this conclusion, and I thought that, you know, where are these people going?
Because they were sort of my idols, and I felt that this was nonsense.
But entities communicate with mental telepathy.
They create, and this is interesting, they seem to create and conduct abductions, not physical abductions, but you have these abductees, for example, taken from a car or bed or a field and see their bodies left behind.
And they undergo the same type of abduction experience as someone who has a physical abduction experience.
And even more strange is the fact that after being abducted and physically examined, well, I won't say physically examined, but examined in this state of being, they come back to their bodies and you have the same scars.
You explain that.
And then you have people who have had close encounters like that.
There are other types of phenomena that start up that they've never had experience with before, pulverized phenomena, OBEs, electrical sensitivity, seeing apparitions and so forth.
It almost seems there's a metaphenomena out there and that UFOs are part of it, just as OBEs and NDEs and all of this extrasensory phenomena or paranormal phenomena that are exhibited throughout the world.
So you have these paraphysical attributes of both UFOs and entities that I think demand attention.
If you're studying something, you don't leave out something because you don't like it or it doesn't fit your hypothesis.
And I decided to look at the paraphysical attributes of UFOs and entities.
And in doing so, I saw that there were tremendous similarities between the close encounter of the fourth kind of abduction experience, especially the OBEs abduction experiences, and the near-death experience.
That's exactly where we're going to pause right now, Ray.
My guest is Ray Fowler, and that's exactly where we're going to pick up.
Remarkable similarities, he said, between close encounters of the fourth kind and near-death experiences.
That should be very interesting.
As is most of what we do on Dreamland, I'm Art Bell from the High Desert.
There'll be more in a moment.
Stay right there.
Good evening, everybody.
I'm Mark Bell.
This is Dreamland.
I'm not playing the phone number bumper because we're not taking calls right now.
Due to the nature of this evening's show and the three separate hours that will yet all tie together, we're not, in all probability, until the last hour, I doubt we're going to take calls.
You've heard me talk about Raymond E. Fowler, and for a very long time, as many of you know, NDEs or near-death experiences have been of great fascination for me.
And I am very curious, Ray, what similarities you see between NDEs, and boy, there have been books in thousands of cases, even children, explaining to us what happens when you die.
What similarities are there between these NDEs and these close encounters of the fourth kind?
unidentified
Well, there are some close encounters of the fourth kind, which we call OBE abductions.
In other words, abductions taking a person out of the body state that are strikingly similar to the near-death experience.
Both, for example, are in an OBE state.
Both reportedly travel toward a bright light and are greeted by a loving being.
And during their experience with this loving being, they experience a oneness with reality.
And both sometimes are transformed into light themselves and experience communication by telepathy.
Both are sometimes taken to a spacecraft and brought to a world of light called home.
And both are very reluctant to leave the world of light when they're there and experience a sense of timelessness.
And both return knowing that love is fundamental and very important.
Both return with a concern for Earth's ecological state and seem to indicate that there's a symbiotic effect upon the entities, whether they be the UFO entities or the entities that are met at the end of the dark tunnel and the bright light.
So you have all these similarities, and that's from UFO Research, Dr. Kenneth Ring reports that he has a number of cases on a violent he called mixed motifs.
And these cases involve persons who experience what seems to be a UFO abduction during a near-death experience, just what I found on the other end of the spectrum.
And they report being on board the same type craft, the same type entities reported by abductees.
And so it's like he has this mountain of research that he's working with on NDEs, and I'm on the other end of the mountain, and we're sort of tunneling through there, and all of a sudden we bump into each other in the middle of this mountain of NDE and UFO research.
And I find it very startling, myself, when I found these similarities.
Well, you said they were concerned about our ecology, and you said there was a symbiotic relationship, and we're always looking for motive with regard to UFOs and abduction experiences.
Motive is very important.
Cattle mutilations, all the rest of it.
Whatever's going on.
Could it be, Ray, that our fate, or put more appropriately, their fate is in effect tied to ours, and so they have a natural concern?
unidentified
Well, what seems to be going on, and this is so far out that I hardly even dare talk about it, but if you take everything at face value, and we really haven't got that much time to go into detail, it would almost seem that those abduction experiences involving physical examinations and things like that may not be specifically genetic engineering at all.
It almost looks like we are being bred like we would breed a herd of cattle.
In other words, people being tested, examined, and so forth for something else that's coming.
In a nutshell, I would make an analogy like this, that we have a dragonfly larvaly, for example, that lives in a water dimension.
And later on it transforms into a dragonfly that lives in a totally different air dimension.
And I hypothesize, and this is just a summary statement, that perhaps the dragonflies are the entities and they're returning to care for and warn the larvae, us humans, that they are polluting the pond, the earth, so badly that the larvae's existence is in danger.
No more larvae, no more dragonflies.
And this would explain the abduction NDE similarities, the entity's great concern about Earth's ecology and its attempts to monitor and preserve the human form for the next plane of existence.
Ray, there was an article in the New Yorker magazine last month that said sperm counts are falling so precipitously that it is possible they could go to zero within one generation.
unidentified
Yeah, and you've got global warming reducing the amount of plankton, for example.
Plankton is at the low end of the food chain for all living things.
You've got radiation from ozone layered disruption.
You can go on and on and on and on.
You would think we wouldn't have to be told.
But if there is a symbiotic connection between them and us, and there is some prime directive which we have and NASA has, if we were to meet other life forms, or they have some prime directive where they only can do this or that, I don't know.
As a UFO investigator, I'm a reporter, and I report, and this is the first book that I've really speculated anything Like this, and I never thought I would get to the point where I'd even consider something like this, but it's starting to all fit together.
And again, I insist in the book, and if I talk to people, it's based on a what-if premise.
If OBEs, NDEs, and OBE abductions are real, valid experiences, and the reports coming from abductees are real, then this is what you come up with.
It's not what I wanted to come up with, but this is what I come up with.
Well, maybe that's bringing this NOVA kind of business at us now.
The fact that so many of you are following trails, bravely, I might add, that lead into writing books like this that are risky.
unidentified
Yeah, well, just the abduction experience, the physical abduction experience will probably be the only thing that's really dealt with on the NOVA program.
They probably wouldn't even consider dealing with the paraphysical side of the UFOs.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science at one time allowed parapsychology as a science.
And that only lasted a few years, and they now have dismissed that as a science.
So unfortunately, we've been programmed from childhood by conservative scientific method, I guess, and religion and philosophy and so forth is regarding what can and what can't be.
And it's just like a transponder on aircraft.
If an airplane doesn't have a transponder, you know, the control tower operators and the radar operators just don't bother with it.
You describe in your book death, the experience of death as the ultimate abduction.
What does that mean?
The ultimate abduction?
unidentified
Well, that would mean that death, in other words, would be the same as an OBE abduction, but you would stay instead of being sent back.
I mean, it would be the same thing as an NDE, but it would be the final abduction of this is true.
If the human form is growing what comes out of us when we have an out-of-the-body experience, for example, if the human form produces a humanoid form that exists in another dimension, then that essence, or whatever you want to call it, is taken in the OBE abduction, but it's very similar to what happens in the DNF experience.
Now, these people are sent back.
We don't know what happens, you know, the people that don't come back, but the similarities are so striking between them.
It would seem that there is a definite connection between them, and that at death, it would be similar to an OBE abduction, going through the same type of thing as an NDE, but you don't come back, unless I say it would be the ultimate abduction.
You know, the story got a little wild, as they tend to do with the license there, but it was very, very interesting in a bunch of young doctors taking each other with agreement to death's door, physical death, and then, of course, having all the facilities and the other doctors there to revive them to find out exactly what is on the other side.
Has anybody actually ever, that you know of, Ray, experimented with that kind of thing?
unidentified
Not that I know of.
It's never been made public that they did.
What is interesting in some of these abduction experiences is that these people are trained.
They're trained on consoles and things like that.
And you say, well, what are these people being trained for?
They certainly aren't being trained for something now.
Then you have a number of cases where the entities actually know when humans are going to die.
I mean, they told Betty, for example, her two sons are going to die.
And, you know, a few days later, they did.
And I remember her coming to my house feeling very, very depressed because something was on her mind in her subconscious.
And she didn't know what it was, but something terrible was going to happen.
And I can remember, I even recorded this.
She was crying and said that something terrible was going to happen.
And she had been, we've been working with her during the investigation.
And I tried to calm her down and said, well, it's just this investigation.
I think it's just getting to you.
And then she called me up about a day and a half later, and her two sons had died.
Well, under hypnosis, she was told this, relived an experience where she was told this, and it was there, but she didn't remember.
I have another report where someone was told that someone was going to, several reports where these entities during a UFO abduction experience were told that so-and-so was going to die or this person was going to die, and lo and behold, they did.
So again, you had this connection with death, or either that or precognition.
It's getting very, very strange, this whole thing.
And this paraphysical side, the other side of UFO research, is not getting too much attention.
And basically, because it's so bizarre, I mean, just the abduction phenomenon is so bizarre that a lot of people don't want to deal with it.
But when you get to this other side, which seems to be left out of the reports, it gets really bizarre.
And it's very hard to articulate, you know, myself to you and to your radio audience these things because they seem to be so far, far out.
What method of continuing investigation do you see occurring?
unidentified
Well, I'm hoping.
I'm hoping that people within UFO Research know me and for some reason have some respect for me.
They're going to think, you know, I've gone off the deep end, or they're going to say, hey, he's right.
We should start documenting some of this other stuff and see where it leads us to.
And this is science.
You have your peers review your work and say, well, let's look at some of these reports, and let's not ignore all of this stuff that's coming out, and let's see if what he says has any merit to it.
What I'm hoping it will be is a catalyst for the nuts and bolts hardware enthusiasts out there to say, hey, we're just looking at one part of this.
Let's look at the other side, too.
Otherwise, we aren't looking at the whole phenomenon.
It's like the blind man trying to describe an elephant.
And as you say, your colleagues are at the moment silent.
Do you think they are just absorbing what you have said or afraid to comment on it, period?
unidentified
Really don't know.
I'm just glad that the director of abduction research from UFO and on the board of directors with me put a nice blurb in my book, and it was complimentary.
And I thought that was good because he was chosen for that position because of his prestige in the area of abduction research.
And then you have on the other end of the spectrum Dr. Hynek of NDE Research approving the work, too.
But I've been in there so long, and I really don't care about reputation as long as I'm trying to do what I feel is honest and objective work, no matter where it leads.
Well, you certainly are the subject of many, many, many pages and books now by Ray Fowler.
And so I guess we would ask you to first describe, as best you can, your own words, the latter experience, the big experience that you consciously remember without the aid of hypnosis.
Well, for me, I believe that they represent more in our spiritual realm, even though they in the physical also.
Man is made of body, soul, and spirit, and we deal primarily with our physical being and once in a while with our emotional and soul part of our being.
But our spiritual part we somehow have eliminated.
And this is the whole person, body, soul, and spirit.
And I believe now we are coming to a point where the spirit, our spirit, is going to have to open up and recognize who we really are.
And these beings are coming to the forefront for us to realize who we really are.
Why, if that is the case, if there is a symbiotic relationship between wherever they are, another dimension or space or planet or whatever, and here, and that relationship is a critical one for them, as if we foul where we are, in some way they are fouled, then why take such a circumnavigating route to try and get the message to us through Betty, through anybody else?
Why not land on the White House lawn and simply let the message out?
How do you feel about all of this that has happened?
I mean, you've been with Betty now all this time, a very famous abduction case, and I'm sure you've talked to her for many, many hours in long moments and short moments about all of this.
What have you concluded?
unidentified
Well, originally, I've had several of my own abduction experiences before I met her.
And I am basically a nuts and bolts type person.
I had to admit to the physical reality of the phenomena when I saw and experienced what I did in 1967 also before I met her.
I had a lot of trouble in accepting the spiritual aspect of the phenomenon because I basically, my mind said it was very hard for me to understand.
This is for either one or both of you, but Christians who listen to the kind of show that I'm doing right now and the kind of thing that you're saying right now become greatly offended.
Generally become greatly offended and they say, these people are being fooled.
These beings or whatever it is they call them are certainly not from God.
They are, if anything, from the devil.
You're tampering with forces and things that you know not.
Well, I mean, you know, each person can make up their own mind, and I realize that the Christian, many of the Christian people have a view that they are demonic.
However, if they really studied the Word of God, they would see that also the good is visiting us.
I mean, the angelic beings are still speaking to mankind.
Well, the tall elders have white hair, very pale skin, pale blue eyes, high cheekbones, and they were in white robes, did not have any shoes on at all.
And the smaller ones, which they said were watchers, were about three to five feet tall, had very large heads, gray skin, and had very large black eyes.
I was later told by the elders that these gray watchers were their remote imaging surrogates, and they were connected to them through bioelectric mind projections.
And I think that the graves are being used by the elders, perhaps because of the pollution on earth or the ultraviolet light.
I think that they are using them to do the particular work of watching the earth and mankind because the watchers did say that they were caretakers of nature in all natural forms.
But there has been a lot of information collected by the medical field that is showing that there's a New Yorker magazine article, as I told Raymond, suggesting that the sperm count in man is dropping worldwide at a pace that, should it keep up, will go to zero within one generation.
And we see all the problems with the different viruses that is just running rampant and so forth.
So, I mean, there is so much that is involved here.
Also, the chemicals that have been used on our produce and everything, the ground is saturated by it, and that can be picked up in the DNA of people from all over the world.
It shows that what happens is the chemicals break down to estrogen, and it's causing a problem and possibly sterility in certain people.
The biopsies that are often, like scars, often seen on abductees, it may be that they are checking what is going on in our system due to pollution and nuclear waste being emptied in the water or air.
Well, what I'm curious about is how other Christians, your friends, your associates, so forth, reacted to your story, which is now world famous, and so everybody knows it.
Well, most of the people that we've come in contact with, Christians, they've been very nice.
I have hundreds of letters from other Christians that write to me and tell me about their experiences, but they dare not speak them out loud in the church or even sometimes to the minister.
And suddenly, when the whirring started, I turned around to look at him.
And as I did, he came out of himself.
He was in two places at one time, rushed to the door, stood there, and looked astonished, turned around, and went back into himself.
And we discussed it just a short period of time and then let it go.
Well, it was years later under regressive hypnosis.
We thought that was it.
And years later, under hypnosis, we realized, more information came out, that we were taken out of our bedroom and up into a craft.
And at that point, a very unusual thing happened where I turned into a light being and there were other light beings there.
And at that point, Bob was taken on another side of the craft, and I could see him.
There were two elders standing side by side on both sides of him.
And they took him into another room.
And this time, when we went under regressive hypnosis, Bob recalled certain information, and there were messages in that that he might be able to tell you.
Bob, did you recollect it roughly the way she has just explained it?
unidentified
Oh, yes, exactly.
Exactly.
I just thought it was a very strange incident until undergoing regressive hypnosis.
But the thing is, this was the particular incident that made me open my eyes to the spiritual aspect of the whole phenomenon because I did see Betty change into a, where the color just greened out of her and she became what I call white men, that was the form of a human being, but having no distinct features.
You can see almost through her and the others that were on the other side of the craft with her.
A 6.4 earthquake has just occurred in a remote region of the mid-Atlantic ocean.
The quake centered about 500 miles northwest of Ascension Island along the mid-Atlantic Ocean Ridge.
That's absolutely incredible, and it is a place there ought not to be an earthquake, but they just had it.
And they show it roughly between the jutting edge of South America and Africa.
It is a remarkable place for an earthquake to have occurred.
And by the way, the follow-up information on the 8.2 is that there were many people killed.
Dozens of people were killed.
And an island was just about flattened.
And the regular media began to finally catch up with that story about a day late and millions of dollars short.
Betty and Bob, back in a moment.
For the past several months, everybody check them out on the internet at www.maxinet.com forward slash UFOnews.
Hope you got that address.
They're hard to get.
All right, back now to Betty and Bob, Luca, and hi to you both again.
And Bob, I think you were saying you saw your wife turn into pure light.
unidentified
Right, and I'm going to run through this rather quickly.
What happened was she was on the opposite side of the craft, and she had joined a group of people with these light beings.
And it looked to me like they were playing a game, throwing back geometrical form, rolling up into a wall of light, and so forth.
The next thing I knew, a door had opened behind me, and there were two tall beings that took me into a room and began to impart information to me.
First off, I was told that the people on the other side were going through a learning process to advance their knowledge on another plane, that I was not there because I was not advanced enough spiritually, and I'll fully agree to that.
That it was a privilege for me even to be there.
Now, from this point, I was given information regarding the Spirit.
I was told, and again, this is a very brief version, that the Spirit transcends time and dimensions.
The ultimate goal is to come closer and closer to the Creator.
That our life experience is recorded from birth to death, including our deepest feelings and emotions, as well as our physical activities.
That illness, sorrow, and distress actually serve a purpose in the larger order of things that is not readily apparent to those of us on this plane of existence.
And that evil, and this was a surprise, that evil, although the negative aspect on the earthly plane, is necessary and again serves a purpose.
Now, this might be oversimplifying it, but basically we're all given a free will by the Creator.
And we, all of us, have the ability to do good or evil.
It's our choice.
Now, here's another thing that I was told that we are, mankind are advancing rapidly as far as technology, but are developing far behind spiritually.
And they said that we are developing things that are harmful to ourselves, as well as our home planet.
And one thing that comes to mind, I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with, is Project HAARP.
As a matter of fact, I did the show I did Friday night, Saturday morning was with Dr. Nick Begich, and we spent five hours on Project HARP.
So, yes.
unidentified
Okay, I have one question regarding Project HARP.
Now, they're playing with the ionosphere, and if they are wrong, if they misjudge and destroy the ionosphere, that can adversely affect every human being on Earth.
My question is, what gives them or any government the right to even think of experimenting with this?
Well, I think it is something to do also with the HAP project, even though they say no, it isn't.
I think that the extremely low frequencies they're sending out are getting into the electromagnetic sphere that surrounds our Earth.
And already a portion of the Antarctica has broken away some time ago.
So, I mean, and I think the scalar waves caused by this are probably entering the magnetic poles and going down into the core and causing a lot of the eruptions on the Earth.
Well, let me tell you, Dr. Begich said that he has got a document which says that NASA was able to detect a symbiotic relationship during the large Alaskan earthquake in the ionosphere.
Now, when you think that one over a little bit, and then you begin considering shooting a hole in or heating up the ionosphere, I don't know if it sounds like such a good idea.
No, it causes a lot of strange storms and also a lot of electrical storms where people are seeing bright lights and so forth.
I think this is being caused not by the UFO phenomena, but because of the HAAP project.
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Also, they mentioned that with Project HAARP, they could use it to bounce X-rays off the ionosphere into the Earth to see if enemy countries are hiding below the surface of the Earth nuclear weapons and so forth.
My question again is what happens to the people that happen to be standing between the surface of the Earth and the ionosphere?
Well, you would think that as we get closer to Project HARP cranking up the really big power, or other conditions worsen, the incidence of rings or messages from those people that talk to you would increase.
In other words, they would become increasingly concerned as we keep going in the wrong direction.
unidentified
That's right.
I think that has been happening by the number of new people that you see entering the phenomena that are finally coming forth and telling your stories that are well documented by credible people.
Yes, they do, because they can't talk to anyone else.
And I have thousands of letters.
So does Ray Fowler have boxes and boxes of letters from people all over the world describing their encounters and experiences which they cannot talk to their family or their clergy or anyone.
They feel as if they'd be ridiculed.
And because we have experienced these things, they have written to us and told us about them.
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At least it tips that off their chest.
Many of these people are highly credible.
They can be doctors, psychiatrists, the military.
I've spoken personally to people from every branch of the military, Air Force, Marines, Army that have had experiences and so forth, and they can't really put their name to a statement because for obvious reasons, there goes pension, jail, whatever.
Even sometimes with everybody in the cockpit having seen it, and they still will not report it.
And I cannot say I believe them.
Now, Raymond Fowler is doing a lot of research that is beginning to go down a kind of a different avenue that melds together the physical abduction experience with NDEs or near-death experiences with many similarities.
What sort of challenge did you go through mentally, Betty, trying to fit all this together, your devout Christianity, with this experience that would seem for many to conflict with it?
I had a very difficult time at first, especially because of family and friends, they being Christian also.
But it was happening to me.
I had to face it, and as I said, it was difficult.
And I, of course, went to the Word of God and looked upon Jesus' words that he said, greater things shalt thou do than I have done.
And it's hard to imagine how we could have greater things happening to us than that, what our Lord has gone through.
Also, a lot of the Christians feeling that this phenomena is demonistic, they must realize the opposite side is still there, which is the angelic host.
Without some change in direction, do you have any idea how long it will be before some catastrophic event sort of does a reset the way you do when you push a reset button on your computer?
All the troubles that have been happening all over the world, it already has begun.
Yes, these last times and troubless times.
But I don't feel as if the end is going to happen like many people have been predicting in the year 2000 because our calendars are just not that accurate.
And not only that, it is all the people and family involved with the individual that might be going through a terrible time.
It might be those people, it's their time to pray for them or look after them.
It may not only be the person that is suffering, but those around them that have lessons to learn from this.
And love especially, love is the greatest of all.
And what is so sad today, there are so many children and adult children that have their parents in rest homes where really they should take that responsibility themselves.
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Well, one of the things I think with our whole society in particular is people over the years have forgotten how things have gotten too easy and people have forgotten how to be responsible for themselves and their actions.
On balance, as you two look at humankind's progression or deterioration, depending on how you look at it, are we beginning to correct the path we're on or do you think, and I've used this metaphor so many times, that like the airplane that's halfway across the Atlantic, it goes past the point of no return, do you think the little red light in the cockpit that says point of no return has already come on?
unidentified
my wife and I, I think, differ on this.
As mankind as a whole, I don't think that we're going to make it.
I think small numbers will.
But I really don't.
As mankind as a whole, no, I think that we're too greedy.
Well, I feel that there will be many that will show that love, that will find the truth and the light and the Lord, and will help so many different people.
And in the UFO phenomenon, there are many people that are feeling the reason for their abduction or encounter is because in the latter days that they will come together and they will be able to help others.
I believe also that, like Bob said, the greed is there.
And this is why a lot of governments all over the world, they're interested in the military, power, power, power.
Well, there's going to be changes, that's for certain.
But there are also people, now a lot of people feel, you know, the breakdown of the government and everything, but this would be a terrible thing because there are some good people in government.
It's just that the general populace has got to get more involved.
And I know a lot of people feel as if, well, what's the use of voting?
You know, we can't do anything about it because a lot of them already have their men in place and everything for what they want to do with the one-worlders and so forth.
Yeah, well, I've been a television producer for a long time, and one of the programs that I produced that a lot of people listening might know is UFO Report Sightings on Fox.
And prior to that, my work had been in nonfiction documentaries focused partially on environmental problems and medicine and science, which is how I got into trying to find out what was happening to all of the animals worldwide in the unusual animal deaths called animal mutilation.
I never, ever would have thought that about 16 years into the future from my first investigation in Colorado of what was happening to the animals, that I would be sitting here today looking at such an enormous and wide variety of subjects, which I'm willing to talk about any of it with you tonight that you'd like in this third hour.
But I thought, since I normally am not at third hour, that I would at least give this audience an update on some things that have been happening this past week and a story like I usually do at the talk.
It relates to what Ray Fowler and Betty Andreessen, Luca said.
It is that they feel that the reason or the motivation for the abductions and possibly the mutilations and the seemingly genetic experimentation that's going on.
I mean, we're always looking for motivation here and why.
That these beings, whoever they are, are from another dimension as opposed to another planet, physical planet.
They're from another dimension.
And that our fate and our earth, now in great trouble, is symbiotically related to theirs.
And certainly if that's true, it would go to the motivation for all the medical experiments for trying to understand what's going on with the animals and the human beings that are now on Earth and what we are doing to ourselves.
In my first book, An Alien Harvest, I suggested based on abduction cases that involved animal mutilations and humans being taken someplace anyway by beings that were trying to explain what they were doing, that it appeared to be coming down to a survival issue.
And since then, there have been many more cases implying that that is what the crux of the problem is, someone's survival out there.
And there is a new book out called Cosmic Voyage by Courtney Brown.
He is a professor of political science at Emory University in Atlanta.
And it is a remarkable book.
Somewhere in the future, you and I want to sign some combination, or we should interview him.
His book is based on using the discipline of remote viewing.
And the text basically is a discovery that who is involved with our planet are time travelers from the future who have a major survival problem.
And that this genetic harvesting now is for their present, which would be a distant future, and that we're all somehow all tied together.
And I find this especially interesting.
People can argue all they want to about remote viewing.
The fact is that something extraordinary is happening on the planet.
Things are interacting with humans and plants and animals.
And in even military encounters where I have transcripts of interviews, even if they have not been made public, this issue of something coming from another time, which could be also called another dimension, is one of the prevalent themes.
And I think that probably our government, as they have begun to discover some of this over time, probably felt that the term UFO and extraterrestrials was far more comprehensible to the world than travelers from a distant future.
And that may be another part of this story that they haven't wanted anyone to discuss.
But, you know, we are all discussing it, and we are getting to the end of this century, and I think that people are ready to hear this.
Well, we all know that the government has, in fact, an ongoing, I guess, program with remote viewing.
Now, they may have their own specific national security reasons for it, or maybe they have made discoveries that they have not even hinted at yet in this whole program.
Yeah, and it's like so many things that our government does.
I really am not in a mode to attack them because in some ways I have great sympathy for people who have been writing this very difficult story and have felt that to at least keep people in the public innocent of all of this so that there would not be panic.
I mean, that's been the most common explanation.
But it's getting to a point where their reasons for doing what they do, for example, like putting out perhaps to muddy the waters around remote viewing, that Central Intelligence Agency report that it was only 15% effective a few months ago,
that may be a way of diffusing public attention to remote viewing when, in fact, remote viewing may be a tool that our government uses on a regular basis.
They just don't want people to realize how important and powerful a tool it is.
And this past week, there were new reports of cattle mutilations again back in Geraldine and Albertville, Alabama, where there were several cases in 1993, and I went down to do the documentary Strange Harvest, 1993.
We were able to get grass and tissue samples from a cow and a calf just a few days ago, and in a couple of weeks, I'll give an update about what we find.
And last Thursday, while I was talking on the phone with photographer Eddie DiSconde from the El Vicero newspaper in Puerto Rico, he got a call about another attack in Canoganus, where I was in January.
Yeah, this is really bizarre, and it gets even stranger.
Outside, four rabbits in a cage were dead.
The male had three puncture holes on his chest in the formation of a triangle.
The other three female rabbits had more random punctures.
And then the part of the cage had been violently torn apart.
According to Condé, who went to photograph the animals, none of the holes bled.
These attacks do not make any sense.
He and I talked about what would take a leg from each parakeet and leave the birds alive in the bottom of the cage.
What would kill animals only to take biopsy punches of tissue over and over and over again?
And then the question that everybody asks, and no one knows for certain, is there any connection between the animal death in Puerto Rico and UFOs?
Well, photographer Eddie Condi told me that back in November in a city called Vega Baja, northwest of San Juan, a seven-year-old girl was standing in the front yard of her house when she saw what she called a flying saucer, the sky.
And then she said she saw a red light come out of it and it struck her arm causing pain.
Condé interviewed the family and said the little girl still has bumps on her arm where she said the light hurt her skin.
The next day, 14 of the family's chickens were all found dead with puncture wounds.
Everyone in Puerto Rico is asking the same question that I and others have asked for a long time.
Who or what is killing and mutilating animals on this planet and why and what is this chupacabrous creature that some people have seen up close and personal and it doesn't really fit much of anything as much as I've tried to match it up to primates that exist.
Primate monkeys have tails except for the chimp, but this doesn't seem to sound like ant that has wraparound eyes that one woman eight feet away said look like.
Solid, dark, gray jello, very liquidy and wet looking big wraparound eyes.
Linda, what do the have there been postmortems on these chickens, autopsies, looking into any chemical any chemical, anything induced or blood taken out, or what do we know?
Yes, I talked with Dr. Carlos Soto on Friday at great length.
He has had several animals brought to his veterinarian clinic, and he said that two of the strangest were one was a guinea hen.
That when he laid it on its back, it had this three-pronged triangular-shaped puncture wound, just like what they found on the big male rabbit Thursday.
And it was on the breast of the guinea hen.
And this was interesting.
When he opened up the bird in knee crossing, he said in the chest, separate from the three triangular punches, there were four holes that did not seem to correspond with any surface trauma where the bird's feathers or skin were.
He couldn't find bruises or punctures, and he still doesn't know how these four holes were made.
He also clarified that on the birds that he has examined, the puncture holes have gone right through the feathers, the skin, the muscle tissue, and in some cases, even down deeper into bone.
This was exactly the description in Canary Islands off the coast of Africa back in the 70s.
It costs money, a lot of more money, to do toxicology and chemistry.
And unfortunately, no one there has any additional funds to do anything.
This Dr. Sotto has examined the animals that people have brought to him because he's very curious.
He would like to understand when he has something.
He did send some tissue to Dorado, which is a laboratory on the north side of the island.
But as I understand it, no one, including Dr. Sotto, has been getting reports back from Dorado.
And Dorado has also sent some tissue to Roche and Ames labs in the United States.
If those lab reports have come back to someone and exist, I haven't been able to find anyone who knows the data.
And what it boils down to is a veterinarian, a very conscientious man, who has seen enough animals and says there is something highly unusual, and he does not know how to match up any natural explanation with what he has been seeing.
I know that in the past you've been involved with foundations that give grants for study in these kinds of areas domestically in this country and look at some cattle mutilations, that sort of thing.
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Yeah, about one year in 94, John Alchiller and I had a grant.
Okay, well, so there's no chance that money could be directed toward getting samples sent to a place where we could be damn sure we'd get a good report.
Well, that's what I and some others have been hoping.
We do need another larger research grant in order to do this effectively, and I don't know if it is going to come into place, but that's exactly what we have been hoping would happen.
And when I was in Puerto Rico for those 10 days, it was an effort to see if we could, in fact, build stronger bridges between what's happening there and our efforts in the United States to research more scientifically and medically.
And we are trying to get hair samples, tissue samples, and grass samples from Puerto Rico now, even if some of us are just paying it for it ourselves.
So it is a challenge in all of this to have the funds to do all this correctly.
And in Puerto Rico, they have a serious problem of funding.
Yes, and the Department of Agriculture has put out its own request to certain people in the University of Puerto Rico Medical Center.
There are political people like the mayors of some of the cities that have been affected.
The civil defense is very involved on the island.
But when you meet and talk with those people, and remembering that Puerto Rico is an island which essentially does not have many resources, those people are in the same situation that I and others who try to do our work on our own and we are not officially funded, quote unquote, by a legislature or a government to do it.
They're in the same position, and they do the best they can.
And that's where we really do need some kind of a more organized and financed effort to stake out almost on that island and see what more we can learn from the professional.
And if the story that we might be dealing with beings coming from a future timeline who have a serious survival problem, and they've come back to gather genetic material from this planet, to watch over this planet, whatever the scenario, then it's possible that everything that is happening is for a good and better reason than we can imagine.
But back in the 1970s, when animal mutilations were occurring worldwide on a regular basis, including the vampire of Mocha in Puerto Rico, again, it was there 27 years ago, there was a rash of unusual killings in the home of Washington area where Bigfoot had also been seen since.
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And even prints have been seen and cast made of this.
Recently, we had an encounter in March 1977 that illustrates how the UFO phenomena can camouflage itself with the sound of a helicopter that turns into a UFO or can use holographic-like images to frighten people or perhaps, as in Betty Lucas' experience, to inspire her.
Remember the Phoenix bird metaphor that we've had a lot of discussions with her about, and whether it was holographic or placed in her mind, it was not real in the sense that we would say that we could touch the floor, but it seemed to be trying to teach her something, wouldn't you agree?
And this appears to be part of this phenomenon, which always stuns, confuses, and completely disorients humans at the time.
And later, they realized, and in this case with this man, that these beings did something to frighten this man, perhaps to keep him away from them, but he was not hurt.
Now, the man prefers to remain anonymous, but gave me permission to replay excerpts of our conversation on Dreamland.
His story began around 3 o'clock in the afternoon when he was cutting underbrush from the swampy forest behind his house.
From nowhere, a small being appeared dressed in a sparkly, metallic blue bodysuit.
The eyewitness thought that the being looked like a four-foot-tall old man with pale skin that appeared to be scarred, like burn scars.
And Scott Hopkins and others have had drawings from abductees who have drawn the surface of some of the beings that they've encountered as looking like it was pocked with scars.
Now, what follows on tape is the eyewitness's account of what happens next.
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Yeah, so Hicks steps in right.
And it's like it gets all blurry.
And it's like he's doing a, it's like he's vibrating.
It's like his features are contorted.
And that's when I got puzzles.
And of course, this all happened in seconds.
And it's like he's standing there vibrating almost like you're doing a jitterbuck or something, vibrating away.
And down through the trees comes another guy.
And this other guy, while he's coming down, it sounds like a hive of bees.
And he's got a metallic blue uniform on.
And if you was back in that woods, you'd wonder, how did those guys get down?
Because those big trees, the limbs would actually overlap each other in places.
You know what I'm saying?
It looked like this thing was inside some kind of a tunnel of air.
And looking back on it, it looked like a...
In other words, I feel like there was something maybe a mile up in the sky that has technology to make a wind tunnel.
And these things go up and down the side of a wind tunnel.
Because when the second guy comes down, like they say coming down, they sound just like the height of a knees.
And so coming from the south headed north, there's a noise.
I thought it was kind of like a, in some ways, like a real smooth sounding helicopter.
It had a kind of a high-pitched whang to it.
So it gets up to practically above our heads and the motor cuts.
I hear some popping sounds.
And I look up and here's the flying saucer and it's dropping like a ton of lead.
And I'm thinking that thing is crashing.
And I think that before this point, I didn't have any fear.
Anyway, that thing is dropping.
And it probably gets to about, I don't know, 20 or 30 feet above these big fir trees out there.
And it lets out a noise and it goes like that.
And the wind from that thing, when it hits up, it stopped in the air there, above the treetops.
And the wind from it, when it did that, it was flipping these big fir trees back and forth so violently that I thought the tops was going to snap on them and fall down on us.
I mean, these trees are swept around violently.
And my clothes are flopping back and forth, and my hair was flying all around.
And that thing up there, you can hear air coming out of it, and you could hear kind of like a bearing on the outside.
And to me, it kind of reminded me of a train going along a track.
I could hear it clickety click, clickety, click, clickety, click.
And now that flying softer is over my head, and they're probably, you know, I'd estimate maybe 50, 60 feet away.
It's over my head, and it's over their head.
And it's up there hovering.
How big?
Well, in diameter, I'd say 50, 60, 70, 80 feet, something like that.
Okay.
And at that treetop?
Well, it's probably 20 to 30 feet above the tops of the tallest tree there, but it's up there, and it's like they're staring over at me.
And it's like I'm standing still, and it's almost like I'm scared to even swallow.
And I'm thinking if I stand real still, maybe they didn't even see me.
And anyway, somewhere in this situation, and this really sounds like a VS, it's like over there away these specks collected together.
And it's like they collected together in the shape of a wolf with horns and a long tail.
And these specks collected together, and they move towards me real fast, and it's like I couldn't even duck.
And it's like when they get to me, it's like I got an electric shock, which really makes it sound like a BS shark.
No.
I know it does.
No?
No, it doesn't.
You saw the color of the sparkle or the glue, can you describe the color of what it was that suddenly formed in the air out of which this wolf with the after the tail came?
Well, it's like it didn't have any color.
I would to me it's like probably in the old days when you would watch a black and white television.
It's it's uh you mean it had a black and or like an x-ray look to it?
Uh well I don't feel like it was a real animal, but I mean it's but it was like you were seeing a picture form in the air and then come at you.
To me it was kind of like it was transparent, like like specks collected together.
I can't even explain it.
And so this object or this this we'll call it these particles form into this image.
It's coming towards you.
Yeah, it's like it's it's it's on me.
I mean, it's like they collected and it was me.
That's all I can say.
Okay, and then what happened?
Yeah.
It seems to me like when this took place, it's like I felt like it was being laughed at.
So Art, I have never heard a better description of both the camouflage of sound and then what appears to be some kind of either a projected image, in this case it seemed to be outside of his mind and projected at him,
that has been described in the literature, but seemed to be used in this case both to either keep him away and at the same time convey information that they were making fun of him.
A wolf with horns and a tail is like some of the mythological characters of history in a funny, strange way.
He took photographs of strange, he said, very strange tracks and prints in that swamp.
He said that at the time that this man was reporting to the sheriff's office the fact that not only was this happening out there, but the whole series of animal mutilations, which I'll get to in a minute.
But he said people all over that valley were calling the sheriff's office reporting all kinds of odd lights and odd sounds and encounters with strange things.
And I think that this man is describing exactly what happened to him, and it underscores that this phenomenon, whether it comes from the future, another dimension, another solar system in this galaxy or another galaxy beyond,
that its way of communicating with itself and the way that translates to us is very different and that these uses of holographic images, almost theatrical images, it was in the Betty Andresen case, now Betty Andresen Luca, that kind of theatrical, metaphorical production was very much a part of that case also.
And here comes a Bigfoot, eight foot tall, four inch long, solid black hair, doesn't even look at him and just goes striding right by him, standing there as numb as can be, and continues right behind those beings.
Now, the man who worked with the sheriff's office told me tonight, and this is a part, this man who did not know, he said that he took photographs of deer that were found hanging with excisions of the rectum and genitals and other parts were found hanging on trees in that foot area back in 77.
One of our listeners this year, I have never done this interview yet, and he was an elderly gentleman who sent me a drawing, also from the 70s, and said that he had been out hunting and that he saw a sort of hairy, big, primate-looking creature carrying a deer in its arms and watched it put the deer over a branch on a tree.
There is a colleague of mine in Illinois who has been studying this for a long time, and he has photographs Of a plaster of Paris footprints left in many parts of this country that range from the so-called three-foot, which I think is more consistent with the Yeti over in the other part of the world in the Mount Everest area, to deep prints.
I mean, they're huge, they're long, obviously it's something that's heavy and deep, and that would have to be a physical creature that would leave those tracks.
But how do you reconcile that with the rancher in Montana in 1976 who shot with a 30-yard six rifle at an eight-foot-tall, hairy creature that he said looked like a big primate standing in front of him, and when he shot, that creature disappeared in a flash of light?