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Jan. 22, 1996 - Art Bell

01:22:10

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Viruses - Ken Goddard

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29:54

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now a quick facts.
		Art, we live in the Phoenix area, known as the Valley of the Sun, since 1960.
		Since then, the population, as most people know, has been growing at unbelievable rates.
		Yes, Phoenix.
		People are moving here from every corner of the country.
		They have a tendency to bring with them habits, lifestyles of wherever they came from.
		Some of them tend to bring things like plants not indigenous to the desert southwest in the earlier days.
		If you had sinus problems or asthma or allergy-related conditions, you were advised to move to Arizona.
		Now, even if you've never had sinus problems, allergies, asthma, people develop them when they move here.
		I think that it's greatly due to the fact that we have far too many people in this area, which ecologically was never designed to support the mass population.
		We've got polluted air, autoexhaust, new types of pollens never known before here.
		We've covered much of the desert with concrete, so it's hotter, more humid.
		We've altered our weather here.
		The desert is a delicate balance of nature.
		Can't survive this kind of abuse.
		People don't seem to get the fact that we're killing this once beautiful area.
		That's from Carol in Phoenix.
		Do you agree with that, Ken?
unidentified		Yeah, I love the desert.
		That was my first duty assignment of the Riverside and San Francisco County Sheriff's Department.
		I spent a lot of time out in the desert doing crime scene work.
		And early in the morning, I don't think there's anything more beautiful than the desert.
		It was so fragile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I agree.
unidentified		Destroyed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know where I am?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm in a little place called Perump, Nevada, about 65 miles west of Las Vegas.
unidentified		Ah, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Sirius Desert here.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And a lot of people look on my desert and they say, what a desolate no-man's nothing land.
unidentified		Oh, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have no idea.
		The place teems with life.
		It has its own ecology, and as you said, it's really delicate.
unidentified		Especially early in the morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, sir.
		Listen, I want to start taking calls in just a second here, and that's exactly what we're going to do.
		Attention audience.
unidentified		But first, this may seem silly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we've had a lot of fun with it, but there's a little possibility.
		I've had these people calling my show and sending me faxes, Ken, who claim to be immortal.
		Immortal.
		In our human future, or presently, is there even a remote possibility, Ken, of, in essence, immortality?
		In other words, there seem to be exceptions to almost everything.
		There are even prostitutes in Africa that don't get AIDS, that's what I'm saying.
unidentified		So could there be an exception?
		There's triggering mechanisms, genetics, that essentially affect the aging process, that stop our cells from repairing.
		Exactly.
		And that's another one of these interesting aspects of DNA that I think the more we understand it, the more in awe we're going to be of what that is.
		There may be a mechanism for turning that off.
		It may be a philosophical question of do we?
		Because what happens if we don't die?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess what I'm asking you is, it's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I'm asking you is, is it possible that of the five and three-quarter billion people that are out there right now, there's one or two or ten walking around who've had that switch thrown by nature somehow?
unidentified		I would be skeptical, and then I'm skeptical predominantly because I'm so used to the con game and my work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
unidentified		I'm really curious.
		It's possible that there's been a manipulation.
		I suspect the answer is no.
		I would love to be disproven because I'd love to see what that genetic switch is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't we all?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Now, how it's used is something else, again, that's why the fiction writers love to dwell on those things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as long as we're there for a second, if somebody was wandering around like that, there's one thing they'd know for sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is that if they were discovered, people like Ken Goddard and his opponent in every capital in the world would take them and do what we did to frogs in the ninth grade.
unidentified		There'd be that concern?
		There would be people that would be afraid, that would want that person destroyed.
		I mean, you'd have all these human emotions that would be unleashed.
		There'd be absolutely no reason for a person like that to wash their head up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me give out the numbers.
unidentified		Let me let everybody know who they're listening to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is Ken Goddard.
		He's a fascinating guy.
		He has a B.S. in biochemistry from the University of California at Riverside, M.S. in Criminalistics, California State, University L.A. And he is actually director of the Forensic Lab up in, and we're going to talk a little bit about forensic lab too in Ashland.
		They don't entirely get funded by the government, even though they are.
		Well, actually, I guess we'll ask them in a moment about that and then start taking calls.
		Here is the quick version of the telephone numbers if you've got any question generated by what we've done so far.
		First time callers to the program, area code 702-727-1222.
		The wildcard lines, multiple, your nickel, but let it rain till it's answered.
		Area code 702-727-1295.
		Toll-free west of the Rockies, it's 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		If you're east of the Rockies, doesn't matter where, it's 1-800-825-5033.
unidentified		And just before we take our first call, Ken, am I right about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are a government agency.
unidentified		Taxpayers pay everything.
		Oh, they pay everything?
		Absolutely.
		Well, except when they declare us unessential, I suppose, but they paid us then, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they're, huh?
unidentified		Yeah, we were shut down for three weeks.
		I understand, though, that you also get public donations?
		Through the Fish and Wildlife Foundation, we can get donations.
		We're not allowed to have donations sent directly to us.
		Oh, no kidding.
		About the conflict of interest situation.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They gave me a mailing address here if people wanted to make a donation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it okay to give that out?
unidentified		Sure.
		We would have to direct the money actually to the Fish and Wildlife Foundation in Washington, D.C. If you sent it to the Department of Interior, it would go there and would get to us eventually.
		We just can't take it directly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, in that case, I can't give out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody from your agency sent me an address in Eagle Point, Oregon.
unidentified		And I guess maybe that is not the right one, huh?
		No, the only people we could take the money from would be the Fish and Wildlife Foundation in Washington.
		Okay, this is for the avian care facility there?
		Yes, that's a completely separate entity.
		It is.
		Dr. Ralph Wanker.
		Okay, is it okay for them to send donations there?
		Oh, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		Well, I mean, we can't get the money, but I mean, they're welcome to donate to that entity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll tell you what, I won't even give an address.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll give an 800 number that they gave me here.
unidentified		Okay, and I'll provide you with an address position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's 1-800-460-7849.
		Again, 1-800-460-7849.
		That's a separate entity, and it cares for birds, right?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and so that's a good thing to be donating to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you want to give out an address, go ahead.
unidentified		Well, I don't have it here.
unidentified		It's the Fish Wildlife Foundation, Washington, D.C. That would get there, but I'll mail you an address once I get back to work for the Fish Wildlife Foundation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good enough.
		Let's take a few calls.
		Out east of the Rockies we go.
		You're on the air with Ken.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Dee.
unidentified		Where are you, sir?
		And Ken?
		I'm in the Detroit area.
		Good morning.
		Listening to WJR, but for the first time since you came on here, October 30th, Art, they've taken you off the air after the 4 o'clock news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After the 4 o'clock news, yeah, I know they made a shift there, and hopefully it'll shift back, but it's just a one-hour shift.
unidentified		Oh, so that is a temporary thing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'd have to give WJR a call.
unidentified		Okay, that's what I'll do.
		I just wanted to make you aware of that.
		Evidently, you are, and I wanted to thank you for a good show tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		I very much appreciate it.
		And Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hello there.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		Janesville, Wisconsin.
		Yes, sir.
		And I would like to know what I, as just one person in the world, can do to alleviate the problem of the spreading of the disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, in a lot of ways, that's a very good question from Wisconsin.
unidentified		What can any single individual do?
		The one issue is be thoughtful about, for example, if you travel to a foreign country, bringing things back that don't go through quarantine.
		That's the whole point of a quarantine, to make sure there's nothing in these fruit, vegetables, or animals that could impact our own resident species, plant and animal.
		Lots of people try to smuggle things through, being afraid they'll be from them and they could cause immense damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're on the subject.
		I remember driving from Nevada and California or anywhere else into California.
		They used to have, and maybe they still do, a Laurentine stop at the California border.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they would ask you about fruits and vegetables and things like that.
unidentified		Foods like that.
unidentified		You can supply and things like that, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did that work?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it working?
unidentified		It worked.
		It doesn't mean that the little creatures don't get through every now and then.
		First of all, they'll tend to ask you, do you have any fruits and vegetables?
		And if you say no, they let you typically go through.
		And if you lied to them, you could bring one with you.
		It's kind of hard.
		Unless you're going to search every car, it's really hard to stop a little fly that's, what, 30 cycles of an inch long?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a perfect world, I guess they would be searching every car, wouldn't they?
unidentified		Well, I don't know about that.
		I don't want to live in a police state.
		Well, right, but I meant scientifically pure.
		Sure, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I didn't mean socially or politically pure.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Scientifically, you guys have some sort of a scientific instrument that would detect all these things.
		Yeah, I guess.
		We can't even make things that detect explosives reliably.
		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Tim Goddard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Are you coming to Portland all by yourself?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon?
		Are you going to Portland all by yourself?
		I am coming to Portland, well, no, not by myself.
unidentified		I'd like to see your cat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not bringing my cat to Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		You need to bring somebody to talk to him as an author.
unidentified		I'll just have to look at your book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Chris.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		I'm not going to take my cat to Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't even like taking my cat down the street while we're on the subject.
unidentified		Well, please, the listeners out there in the Portland area, do go see him.
unidentified		There's nothing worse for the old ego than to sit there surrounded by all your books, and nobody will get near you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that'd be awful.
unidentified		I know the experience all too well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		Do listeners.
		You mean they get.
		The author's dream is to be surrounded by hundreds of copies of your books, and you have this illusion that people will be climbing over each other to grab for the last one.
		I sat at a table in a shopping mall one of the first times I did it, surrounded by all those books, and for a half hour no one would come near me until finally a small chocolate at what I was doing up there.
		If I was really a writer, bless her little soul, I talked to her for a few minutes, encouraged her to be a writer, and adults finally came towards me.
		I learned to bring somebody with me to talk to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Well, I'll bring my little entrage.
		I'll bring my wife.
		She'll be there.
		My wife's a little bit.
unidentified		She won't put up for the table.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mine may not.
		Well, this is going to be my only time I'm ever doing it.
		All right, let's try one more quick call here for the bottom of the hour.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi there, Bill Boy, you're a hard guy to get through to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you got me anyway.
unidentified		Where are you?
		Okay, I'm in Springfield, Oregon.
		Yes, sir.
		And I've got a lot of family and friends that are in both county and state police up here.
		And boy, Ken Goddard, maybe 5% or less is what all of these conspiracy theorists are relating to.
		But by golly, I am glad you are down there because you guys are doing ballistics on all of these poachers and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute, sir.
		Wait a minute.
		He's explaining.
unidentified		What was it, Ken?
		Oh, we help the local folks around here, the local law enforcement folks.
		And it sounds like I'm talking to one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You may be listening.
		Now, both of you, hold on for a moment.
		We'll be right back.
		Actually, this theme music goes very well with the topic we're right in the middle of tonight with Ken.
		Can you name this bumper music?
unidentified		Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
		Two, one, two...
		Football deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Number to call 1-800-562-6438.
		I'll give it to you again.
		Write it down.
		1-800-50.
		Phone calls heavily now.
		Back with Ken Goddard.
		Are you there, Ken?
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's rock.
		East of the Rockies, Rockies, speaking of rocks, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		I'm calling from Murphy's Borough, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay, Mr. Goddard?
		Yes.
		Okay, I was listening to your show and your discussion on DNA and genetic research.
		Uh-huh.
		Okay, how far along down the road do you see one of my instructors at the university was talking about designing her babies?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
unidentified		People could just go into a lab and design their kids.
		How far along do you see that down the road?
		Or do we want to open that kind of Pandora's box at all?
		Looking at the way things are progressing, something in the neighborhood of 10 to 15 years is probably realistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it really?
unidentified		Yeah, I'm not sure that we want to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure we want to do that either.
		Kind of like you go down to a place, down to a sitting room outside a lab, and there's a little catalog, and you just sort of check off each thing.
		Oh, blue eyes.
unidentified		I think maybe this goes back to Christmas present stuff.
		My granddaughter, I've got a picture of her.
		She's an absolutely gorgeous little child, but she was a surprise how she turned out.
		And that was wonderful that she was.
		I don't know.
		Certainly if I had a choice, I wouldn't want her to have any diseases.
		I'd be greedy in that sense, that I wanted to protect her from everything.
		Well, you bring up a wonderful question.
		What do we do?
		Do we take advantage of the technology, and what does that do to us as humans?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yesterday when they announced this new definitive test for breast cancer, they said it raises some horrendous questions about whether people even ought to take the test.
unidentified		We haven't got the cure yet.
unidentified		Well, so there's that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, being forewarned is forearmed, I suppose, and you could have breasts and ovaries removed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have that option.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or you could just go for a close scrutiny and monitoring.
unidentified		Recognizing that just because the gene is there doesn't mean that that's going to trigger anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But beyond that, if with an 87% lifetime probability, you know, this information, if it gets to an insurance company, you're dead meat.
unidentified		That gets back to privacy issues we were talking about before.
		We've got to work these things out at a social level.
		How do we deal with all this information?
		And there's going to be a whole lot more available.
		Scientists are picking us apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, science is getting ahead of our social and political ability to deal with this stuff, isn't it?
unidentified		Scientists have always done that.
		We caused a lot of grief in our inspiration.
		I think we accomplished a lot of good, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a mixed bag.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, scientists need to be taught social consequences.
		That has to be part of the education.
		As scientists are, I think they are thoughtful, I think, a whole lot more than they used to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's like the manipulation, discovery of what we can do with plutonium, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's done great good, I suppose.
unidentified		It had great potential to do horrible harm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		That's right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I am in Phoenix.
		Phoenix?
		Oh, yeah, you bet.
		But originally I'm from Eugene, Oregon.
		Oh.
		Yes.
		And, you know, seeing that you, Mr. Goddard, are Dr. Goddard.
		Ken Goddard.
		Ken Flyde.
		All right, Ken, I'm Jeff.
		And I understand that being in Ashland, as you are, that possibly a lot of, I want to go back to the question you had before about devil worshiping.
		Uh-huh.
		Because I've heard some rumors, and I've lived in South America and in Texas and Arizona and Oregon.
		And I've heard them from each state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what are the rumors, sir?
unidentified		Well, the rumors are concerning, I guess, the occult, so to speak.
		What about it?
		Well, when I was in Scottsdale, Scottsdale, Arizona, before, about a year ago, I met a lady at a cafe, and I got talking to her, and she was telling me about how she had been just basically run out of Ashland, Oregon, because she had gotten some mysticism.
		And she got into it deeply.
		I'm pretty amazed about, because Ashland doesn't seem to be the type of city that runs anybody out there.
		No, exactly.
		That's a pretty mild.
		I used to play soccer there in high school and in tournaments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you going with this?
unidentified		Where I'm going with this is that at one point I was in eastern Oregon, northeastern Oregon, and I had a strange experience that isn't worth talking about because it takes too long.
unidentified		But back to this I was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		I'm not sure.
		He was kind of wandering around there.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Goodbye.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Really?
		Really?
		No kidding.
		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		my name is Steve.
		I'm in the Twin Cities.
		It's Cole.
		I have a comment for you and your guest, and then a question.
		Okay.
		I've been listening to you, Art, for about a month or so.
		I've been really impressed.
		And this guest is by far your best.
		Ken, you are really intelligent and articulate.
		And this is a great show.
		I have a question for you.
		You mentioned last week, Art, when you introduced Ken as a guest.
		You said that he would be talking about a virus in Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we spent a long time doing that.
unidentified		Yeah, you did.
		And this was concerning rabbits.
		Yes.
		I heard something about a virus in Australia a couple of weeks ago that was killing horses.
		I think it was eating their lungs.
		And the farmer that owned seven or nine horses that died also caught it.
		Also caught it and died.
		Do you know anything about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, this caller is exactly right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know whether you've heard about it, Ken.
unidentified		No, I have not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there was a disease that began killing horses, and the farmer, as the caller just said...
unidentified		It dissolved them, Ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dissolved them.
		And the farmer caught the same disease and was killed by it.
		Yeah.
unidentified		And just crossed over.
unidentified		That's one of the things that is going to happen every now and then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it going to happen more and more?
		Now, lately, the CDC seems to be saying, time and time again, if you listen to them carefully, look out.
		We're setting ourselves up.
		Something's coming.
		In other words, a new disease, new virus, new something.
		We're setting ourselves up for it.
unidentified		I think that's just predictable from the standpoint of the way history has worked.
unidentified		These things erupt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They occur.
unidentified		And every now and then, they're going to occur in a fairly devastating manner.
		We've got a lot of skills, a lot of capabilities to contain these things.
		And CDC is clearly one of them.
		How we use it, how thoughtful we are.
		But you get into things like the HIID or the Ebola and how you deal with a quarantine situation.
		This is population dynamics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, those are interesting words.
		Again, for those who did not hear it earlier, I'll force you to answer the same question because it's a real whiz-banger.
		If something got loose, like Ebola, or worse, air horn, and you had to do an operation clean sweep or decide whether you were going to, and there were thousands of people who would be taken out along with the virus.
		I take it a virus could be killed with a thermonuclear device, with an airburst fuel air device, burned up, in other words.
unidentified		Sure, of course.
unidentified		They're a biological entity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, General Schwartzkopf had to face such a decision during the Gulf War.
		He talked about it the other day.
		They knew exactly where these biological chemical facilities were in Iraq.
		And they came to the general and they said, General, our scientists believe that if we hit them with these weapons that generate high heat and light, we can destroy them effectively without infecting people.
		We believe it's true, but we're not sure what are your orders.
unidentified		And then we wonder why you ever got promoted to a general.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably asked himself that, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, he ordered them destroyed, and I guess, unless you want to look at the Gulf War syndrome, it was successful.
unidentified		One hopes it was, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
unidentified		Knowing some of the lethal types of disease vectors they had, the anthrax and things like that, you certainly want to destroy them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose the virus was loose, and since I got such good ratings news today, we'll pick Phoenix, okay?
unidentified		A couple million people in Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now it's a couple of million people.
unidentified		Same decision?
		It's a decision.
		Do you save the larger and sacrifice the smaller?
		I mean, this is a common decision at that level on all kinds of things.
		Do you look at individual people, their individual faces?
		Do you look at the remaining, what, 250 million people in the United States?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
unidentified		You want never to be put in that situation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you remember the movie.
		They threw pictures of the women and children down on the table.
		They threw down copies of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and they said, look here, these are U.S. citizens you're talking about.
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		And you've got to decide, do you set up something equivalent to martial law to try to stop the spread?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you not?
unidentified		Let's hope we're not put in those situations.
unidentified		Those are terrifying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how would you...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how would you even, you take Phoenix, for example, spread out sprawling city?
unidentified		Well, you're definitely a problem right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to try to create a military force that would be around it to contain it, forget it.
unidentified		You can't.
unidentified		And the natural human thing is to flee, to run from something that's threatening you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're damn right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the more scary they put up, the more people try to run.
unidentified		Yeah, absolutely.
		It's self-defeating.
		So we're talking elimination of the city.
		If that maybe is contained by a continent.
		Except people go on airplanes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we may have a chance to find out about that right now with this rabbit virus in Australia.
unidentified		Do you think it'll be contained to Australia?
unidentified		There's very reason to think it would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it wasn't contained on that little island.
unidentified		Well, yeah, if Ed was right, my chief scientist, his understanding was the mosquitoes, and there's a limit to how far a mosquito can go, even airborne.
		But I don't think the mosquito is going to make it.
		Oh, yeah, but what specific?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah?
unidentified		Well, maybe not.
		Certainly, maybe not.
		There's lots of other things.
		I mean, somebody who doesn't like rabbits here in the United States could get a hold of one and bring it with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, or then there's always this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These airplanes, I mean, how long does it take to fly from, say, Auckland to San Francisco?
unidentified		I went to Australia, and I think it was like a 16-hour flight.
unidentified		That's not very long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could a mosquito live For 16 hours?
unidentified		I would think so.
		It could?
		You got me.
		I assume there's a mosquito expert out there, but I assume they last a whole lot longer than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I do think I have you then.
		So that's my point.
		In other words, on an airplane, one mosquito, it's not wildly, you don't have to turn your imagination and let it go wild to imagine a mosquito might make it.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		Yeah, this, I mean, we're not in a pristine environment, you know, designed for humans.
		This is all very interactive, and it's not exactly a wilderness.
		We've resolved a lot of things, but there's a lot of things out there we don't understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hopefully it will not turn into a real wilderness from a human perspective.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Omaha.
		This is Lynn.
		Hi.
		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Lynn.
unidentified		Hi, I'm a little nervous.
		I've never called into a show.
		Oh, don't.
		I'm very easy to talk.
		You can ask anything you wish.
		Oh, okay.
		I've got to give you a little background first.
		In the early 80s, I was a street person in Phoenix.
		And since then, I've kind of changed my life around.
		And I'm doing very well living here in Omaha.
		And during the time that I was in Phoenix, I did plasma donation.
		And at one point, during this time, the people who ran the place asked us if anyone was willing to take an injection for $40.
		And they said it was sponsored by the United States government.
		Of what?
		I'm sorry?
		I'm sorry, what was the injection of?
		I'm not sure.
		They didn't tell us.
		Okay.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you volunteer?
unidentified		Yes, I did.
		$40 total.
		It's like a lot of money, Vic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, it must have been to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so what do you believe the results of that to be?
unidentified		Well, I do know for a fact that, like when they analyzed my blood later, had a different facility for plastic formation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		But a certain protein was a lot higher than what it ever had been before.
		It went right off the charts.
		And I'm wondering if you've ever heard anything about this experiment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got what a great question, though, in a way.
unidentified		Good question, yes.
		I can't, I'm not aware of any agency that would do anything like that.
		I would never want to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you ever hear something here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you ever hear of the Tuskegee experiments, kids?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know that your statement's operative.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to think we're more civilized and intelligent than a few other things.
unidentified		Maybe I'm being optimistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, I do believe also there was the announcement by a member of this administration that they said plutonium to some children and that sort of thing.
unidentified		Recently?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
unidentified		In the past.
		Oh, yes.
		Yeah, I'm sadly very much aware of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we talk about recent stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's 20 years from now.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if we were doing that kind of thing 20 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what the hell we're doing now.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I think we're in an era where we hold people accountable.
		I hope we are.
		We ought to be able to find things like this out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a government agency, so I assume that you are Very carefully regulated.
unidentified		I mean, what we do and say?
unidentified		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, not what you do and say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you do, not so much what you say, because you've been very open with us.
unidentified		Oh, I make fun of government employees.
unidentified		I have government bad guys, my books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, let me tell you where I'm leading here.
		In other words, there are certain things that can and can't be done, I'm sure, in your forensic lab.
		You can't begin to play with designer genes and start making this and that, and you can't allow it.
		Designer.
unidentified		I don't know there'd be anything to stop it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't design a regular.
unidentified		Right, but you can't design up by regulation viruses and set them loose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you're not at that level.
		But what about the private sector, Ken?
		What regulates that?
		Who says that some lab in Kansas City somewhere, privately funded, isn't doing something that would just scare the problem.
unidentified		I mean, even to regulate a laboratory, it's very hard to know what's going on in a lab.
		People have made illicit drugs in college chemistry labs while experiments are going on.
		I mean, you know, most things are white powders.
		That's a problem.
		You know, how much of a police state do you want us to be in where you've got, I don't know what, hundreds of thousands of FBI agents.
		My FBI buddies will whack me on the head going out looking for these things.
		We don't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Nashville, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
unidentified		Do I answer?
		Oh, okay.
		I wanted to make a couple of comments first, Mr. Goddard.
		Oh, I make fun of government employees.
		I have government bad guys, my books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, let me tell you where I'm leading here.
		In other words, there are certain things that can and can't be done, I'm sure, in your forensic lab.
		You can't begin to play with designer genes and start making this and that, and you can't allow it.
unidentified		I don't know if there'd be anything to stop it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't design a...
		I mean, you're not at that level.
		But what about the private sector, Ken?
		What regulates that?
		Who says that some lab in Kansas City somewhere, privately funded, isn't doing something that would just scare the problem.
unidentified		I mean, even to regulate a laboratory, it's very hard to know what's going on in a lab.
		People have made illicit drugs in college chemistry labs while regular experiments are going on.
		I mean, you know, most things are white powders.
		That's a problem.
		You know, how much of a police state do you want us to be in?
		Where you've got, what, hundreds of thousands of FBI agents, my FBI buddies will whack me on the head going out looking for these things.
		We don't do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Nashville, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
unidentified		Do I answer?
		Oh, okay.
		I wanted to make a couple of comments.
		First, Mr. Goddard.
		Yeah.
		I truly appreciate your intellectual view on life.
		It's not too often.
		I don't know how intellectual it is.
		I'm just enjoying life.
		Well, it's not too often somebody comes along and can have a good moral view and a scientific view at the same time.
		I'm sure you could understand the depth of the whole lean not unto thine own understanding.
		Oh, yeah.
		We try to take our work seriously, but not ourselves seriously.
		Yeah.
		I wanted to make a couple of comments.
		First, that guy that you hung up on with the whole occult thing, I don't know where he was going with it, but I'd like to give you my view on it.
		I think it's got a lot of, you know, it's got a, I've read quite a few books, you know, and there's a strong link between that and the New Age movement, you know.
		And it's pretty dangerous because the New Age movement, you know, it's a rather positive thinking thing, you know, and it's rather addictive to a lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but again, that is kind of off topic.
		And that's why, and he even wandered further than that.
		So I don't see how that necessarily applies to some.
unidentified		Well, I just wanted to make that small comment.
unidentified		The reason I started to call about an hour ago was the immortality thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		The immortality question.
		Is that a wonderful question?
		Do we?
		Don't we?
		First of all, I'm pretty convinced that nobody walking this earth is immortal.
		I don't think we've got the capability scientifically to turn the switch on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, sir.
		Wait a second.
		Wait a second, sir.
		Hold on.
		He says, Kim said, suppose we had the scientific capability to throw that switch.
unidentified		Should we do it?
		Oh, no, no, no.
		That goes right into the new age thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it doesn't.
unidentified		Well, that's playing God, man.
unidentified		That's like making perfect babies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that might be true.
		Yeah, I agree with that.
		This man and the previous man were trying to come at you from a religious point of view, Ken.
unidentified		Well, that's fine.
		Religion's important to our culture.
		We trip across religious cultural issues all the time and are working with the American Indians and the Eskimos.
		Well, where?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where does the kind of work that we've been talking about this morning cross the line, in your opinion, and become God's territory?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when are we treading?
unidentified		You just touched upon one there.
		Somewhere along the line, it's one thing to understand the genetics and the DNA.
		The moment we have the capability to alter it at the inception of a human, then we're playing God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but we're going to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we can do it, we will do it.
unidentified		Sure, we will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If Ken doesn't do it, then somebody else is going to do it somewhere.
unidentified		Yeah, it's going to be done for any number of probably good reasons that may have to do with wanting a child free of disease.
		And I go back to my granddaughter.
		I want her to be happy, healthy, and live forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But imagine how many of us there would be after a while, either if we became immortal or even anywhere near it free of disease.
unidentified		Yeah, then you've got a decision to reproduce.
		If you continue to reproduce, if you go.
		Well, the decision is to stop reproduction or else.
		Ah, Now, wait a minute.
		I got my granddaughter out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, we're at the top of the hour.
		How are you doing?
		Can you hang in?
unidentified		Sure.
unidentified		This is fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, there's more fun then I had for you.
		A copy of the Seattle Times Thursday, January 18th.
		And it is entitled, under the sports section, Fish and Wildlife, it says, I'm quoting the headline, Deadly Virus Sweeps Through Sheep Herds.
		A deadly flu virus that nearly wiped out a herd of southeastern Washington, bighorn sheep, two months ago, has now spread to the treatment facility and now other herds roaming the breaks.
		The virus called the, oh no, pasturolocyces or something is infecting and causing pneumonia in sheep at the treatment center in Caldwell, Idaho.
		They've recovered 74 sheep, 35 have died thus far of it.
		And so there it is, right in the middle of your field.
		Ken, have you heard of this?
unidentified		Yeah, I have.
		Something that folks may not be aware of is that we have a laboratory specifically designed to deal with these types of disease vectors.
		It's the Madison Health Lab in Madison, Wisconsin that was a part of the Fish and Wildlife Service and is now a part of the National Biological Service.
		They go after these things much the way we go after our crime scenes, trying to figure out what's happening, trying to contain control.
		They have one heck of a job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Containing control.
		Yeah.
		Key words, whether it's human viruses or animal viruses or...
unidentified		And it's a cold-hearted biz, isn't it?
unidentified		It has to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has to be.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what happened with AIDS?
unidentified		what happened with it, the sense that I'm aware of is that Oh, the control and contain part.
unidentified		It sounds like it broke loose from probably the green monkey and got into humans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a control and contain part.
		Again, they detected it early, remember?
		In San Francisco, patient one or zero, they call them whatever it is.
		Yeah.
		And where was the control and containment?
unidentified		Okay, infect past them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I don't think they had a sense of what they had at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		ArtGreat program.
		Here's a fact from Scott up in Oregon, where you are as a police officer in Oregon.
		I often deal with people that have poor hygiene skills or who, by choice, expose themselves to dangerous substances.
		I'm far more terrified of bringing home a dangerous virus or bacteria to my family than a bullet from a crook I might encounter.
		What can I personally do to protect myself and my loved ones?
unidentified		If they're talking about giving artificial respiration, they have mouth devices which were issued so that we can do CPR on somebody and not pick up virus bacteria from them.
		That's a real issue if you have somebody bleeding and you've got a cut.
		If you're in a combative situation with someone, you're taking that risk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a general rule, Ken, is it better for a person to be isolated and not exposed to whatever is running around out there, or is it better for a person to be exposed, constantly getting colds and flu, and building in that way their immune system?
unidentified		Be exposed, no question.
		You want your immune system functioning fully.
		That is the best protection because your immune system's adaptive.
		Because I'm out here in the desert, and I don't, you know, since I work at home now, I don't see a lot of people, and I don't get colds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't get flu.
unidentified		Wait to get on the airplane going to Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate your letting me just dropping that in there.
		You're right, but I've been on airplanes.
		I went to the Far East.
		I went to Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong.
		Survived the trip without a cold or the flu.
unidentified		You may just have one hex of the immune system, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		All right, here's another one.
		Art, Great Show.
		If your guest goes out to investigate an animal mutilation event with a team and they find everything is true, as Linda Moltenhouse always mentioned, will they go silent like the government normally does?
unidentified		If everything is true, how do we define true?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let us say that you go to the site of an animal, a cattle mutilation, and there is no human explanation or even, let's say more to the point, you find that there is an extra human explanation, Ken, this is going to be a hard question.
unidentified		No, actually, it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll answer it.
		Would you release the information or would you go talk to your boss and say, look, boss, whoever your boss is, not who is your boss?
		Is your boss in Washington or here?
unidentified		No, my boss is in Portland, Portland, as a matter of fact.
		Okay, so would you go to your boss and say, look, what I've got, boss, what do we do?
		No, the first thing we would do, we would, first of all, probably be looking at each other and probably do a little bit of retesting.
		I'm assuming we found something of what might call high interest.
		I should explain it, you know, from my standpoint, I was told there's 50 billion stars out there in our galaxy and some 50 billion galaxies.
		You know, the chances of something else out there is incentive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're darn right.
unidentified		Yeah.
		We would do just like we do normally, which is we would type up a laboratory report and we would issue that report to the requesting agency, which would be the law enforcement agency out there in, let's say, Phoenix.
		It's their investigation.
		They're the only ones who can release that report.
		We would keep that report in our files.
		We don't purge files.
		We don't hide things away.
		And I imagine somewhere along the line, that case would be of interest to somebody.
		So you're saying you wouldn't hide it?
		We're not going to hide things.
		We're just not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		everybody in the government says that, Ken.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I'll tell you what.
		If this comes about, I'll go on your show.
		If they're going to remove us, they can remove both of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take us both out of.
unidentified		Yeah.
		It's, yeah, I understand the conspiracy thing, and I do understand the impact that an alien culture could have on ours.
		And you're talking kind of the same kind of situation that we are with the viruses and disease sectors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
unidentified		Indeed.
unidentified		Except we're talking, you know, this is emotional and psychological as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the difference is you sort of told me that in the case of a virus, you wouldn't make it public.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, in other words, it's your...
unidentified		You panic people.
unidentified		Yeah, and that's exactly what we're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, so then how is evidence of alien presence unlike a virus in that in the honest answer is it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		See, so maybe if I stopped to think about it.
		Yeah.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and when you get up there with your boss, he might say, now, listen here, Ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, but, you know, what we've got here is a panic situation.
unidentified		Sure.
		So you might not pick up phone call RFL at all.
		Huh.
		Maybe I...
		Pull you into that same emotional conflict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		Yes, you're on the air, sir.
		We don't just pre-screen calls.
unidentified		Where are you?
		Hello?
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you there?
unidentified		Last chance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess not.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Mark of Honolulu.
		I just wanted to add a little information to the stuff you were talking about, the horses in Australia.
		Oh, yes, please.
		Okay, it was about seven months ago.
		It was at a horse dut farm out a little ways from Brisbane on the northeast coast of Queensland.
		There were about nine horses that came down with this unknown virus.
		Was it a lung infection?
		Yeah, it was a lung infection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did I have it about right when I said it?
		Because I think I read it in a news release.
		It dissolved the lungs.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		And the guy that died from it, his name was Vic Rails.
		He's a famous horse trainer there.
		But his assistant, his lady friend, she hasn't come down with it yet, and she was as close to those animals as he was.
		And one other thing about the rabbits, too, because I'm from Australia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		The island was only about 50 kilometers off of the coast of South Australia where the CIRSO, which is a government laboratory department, were working on this rabbit virus.
		And so it got unleashed onto the mainland.
		And mind you, they had been using myxomatosis for a long time, but the rabbits had become immune to it.
		And they were actually not hundreds of thousands.
		I'm talking millions and millions of rabbits.
		Yeah.
		Severe damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there's no question about it.
		But if it can make it to 50 miles, then I speculated a mosquito can get on an airplane and make it here.
		Now, if all the rabbits here in the U.S. were to die, somebody might say, who cares?
unidentified		Well, it sounds like there may be a 1, 3, 5% population that are going to develop an immunity also.
		I haven't heard that part yet.
		Yeah, well, I don't know, but there were people up there and the health authorities and everything in Queensland, I know for sure because it was a big news item for several weeks, really did some heavy-duty stuff.
		They were going around in biological suits and all kinds of stuff, trying to figure out exactly what that was and how come it did jump species from the first infected amount of horses into the human trainers that died from it.
		That's scary.
		Yeah, it is scary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Thank you very much for the call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is frightening, and it's like Mother Nature is bad enough by herself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I'm worried about is these guys working in these labs, not like you, Ken.
unidentified		Well, we got a lab.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but putting together, and I just know what's going on, Ken.
		I mean, you look at what we were doing 40 years ago, the kind of experiments.
		If you simply come forward to today and imagine the kind of experiments going on genetically.
unidentified		Well, keep in mind that we allow people to patent these genetic designs, which is more of an incentive to experiment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Hold it right there.
		We'll be right back.
		A bit more of a commercial load right now.
unidentified		You're listening to CBC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You hear this music on my show almost every night.
unidentified		It's the awesome music of my favorite group, Crusoe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, hire optimists.
		Are tests in biochemistry that will confirm and identify the individual that the AIDS virus was contracted from?
		In other words, it is genetically specific.
		Please ask Ken, as a forensic scientist, if someone were to use their AIDS virus as a murder weapon, in other words, transmit it with the intent to kill, are there any statutes presently on the books that would allow for the individual to be actually charged with and convicted of murder?
unidentified		You're probably asking the wrong person, although I believe the answer is yes, that you can be charged with, if not murder, at least a high level of assault.
		If you know you have the AIDS virus and you assault transfer blood, terminal fluid, or whatever.
		I don't believe that's true in all states.
		You'd have to talk to the local law enforcement people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Or this one.
		Hire, please ask Ken if a virus can ever mutate to our advantage.
		In other words, instead of destroying a host, help a host, make it stronger in some way.
unidentified		Hmm.
		I don't know.
		That's a nice one.
		I'm trying to imagine what a virus would do to help us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sir.
unidentified		No, wait a minute.
		You're talking about genetic engineering here.
		Yes, sir.
		The viruses are a way of transferring the genetic material.
		There you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, don't they vector specifically with viruses to introduce genetic material?
		So in other words, let us extend this.
		Suppose suddenly some little virus were to mutate by itself and go in there and turn that aging switch we were talking about.
unidentified		You ought to be a fiction writer.
		This is good.
		Oh, I like that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that not...
		What a cool question.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		I was curious if you were aware that those figures that you gave on infectious diseases being up 58%.
		87%, yes, well, actually, if you subtract the number of AIDS, people with AIDS, it drops down to 22%.
		At least that's what I've heard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, well, no, I heard the exact opposite, that the AIDS people accounted for 22% of the total figure, the total increase.
		So it's still horrifying no matter which way you look at it.
		But the fact of the matter is, AIDS is here, and it is, and the totality of the increase in disease, infectious disease deaths is up 87%.
unidentified		That's a non-trivial number.
		If nothing else, regardless of how someone might feel about the AIDS virus and the related sexual activities, this is something that we need to stop just because we don't know where it's going.
		Collar, anything else?
		Yes, I was wondering if Ken was aware of, or if he's heard of MHC, major histocompatibility complex.
		No, I'm sorry, I don't.
		What do I think?
		It's an array of immune system genes.
		Supposedly, women can smell a difference in men according to these genes.
		You got me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you got me on that one, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard anything like that.
unidentified		Save perhaps the use of some specific cologne.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Ding-dongs, Mr. Bell.
		This is Pete in Portland.
		Hello, Pete.
		Yes.
		Ken, from physics, you remember conservation laws like conservation of angular momentum.
		Oh, yes, I know that.
		Things like that.
		Correct me if I'm wrong, aren't new conservation laws, the virtual ones, being discovered for the soft sciences, such as, well, in biology, the conservation of genetic information, the thing that causes a DNA molecule to try to get longer, but also shut genes it doesn't any longer need string as copies and so forth?
		Yeah, this is part of the intriguing part that my sense is the more I've learned about DNA, the more in wonder you become.
		It's such an intriguing, I mean, the word elegant is the only word that really comes to mind that seems to adjust that stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Elegant, that's a good part.
unidentified		Now let me put something to you.
		There are three basic strategies that we see in the growth level for conservation of genetic information.
		One of them is niche overwhelm that plants do.
		They spread their genetic material over acres.
		They try to command their resources, grow as fast as they can, put every other type of genetic information in the shade.
		We emulate that in agriculture.
		We slash and burn, and we plant what we want in the new acres, in the sterilized acres.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen, to both of you, this is a good call.
		Hold on, both of you.
		We're going to take a break and must here at the bottom of the hour, and I'll hold both of you over.
		If a caller, is that agreeable to you?
unidentified		Well, you betcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Stay right there, and we'll be right back.
		We're talking about viruses, nature, and man, what we're doing on the planet, and all the rest of that with Ken Goddard, who's the director of the National Fish and Wildlife Forensic Lab up in Oregon.
		right back.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our National Fish and Wildlife Forensics Lab up in Ashland, Oregon.
		He is our guest, and here he is again, and here is Pete.
		Pete in Portland, thank you for holding on.
		You're back on the air.
unidentified		Okay.
		The conservation of genetic information.
		The first strategy is that we emulate plants with agriculture.
		The second one is where we come from.
		We emulate our ancestors by migratory exploitation of patches of an environment, coming back around next season to re-exploit them since they've recovered.
		You have the American Indian and the buffalo, the wolf pack and the reindeer herd, things like that.
		Okay, the third and most important strategy, I suppose, is that of making a sealed-off ecology, kind of like the biosphere, that's highly controlled as opposed to the chaotic greater ecology from which it arose.
		And that is the strategy of social insects, of the beehive, the termite mound, and the antnest.
		And it requires a ruthless central control.
		So ruthless that only one set of genes can be permitted to be sent on into the future.
		And every component part of that system must have its will bent to that one purpose, by chemical means, by fair or foul.
		And when we emulate that strategy, we call it city building.
		We call it civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		Now, listen, there's a lot of evil that is created, a lot of suffering, let's say.
		And it's no surprise that we have to do it because it's the one strategy that can get us what we and every other creature on this planet need.
		And that is, quickly, technology to get genetic information off this crusty blue teardrop before some cosmic slushball or one of a million other things annihilates all of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Well, do you agree with that, or do you think that...
		I want to fight back.
		I'd rather go as a human.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		All right.
		Good answer.
		And I'm now going to bring up something that's really odd.
		I don't know how to address this with you except to tell you I know it's true.
		In the New Yorker magazine, the new issue of the New Yorker magazine, there is an article saying that sperm counts, male sperm counts, human, worldwide, are going down at a rate they have never seen before.
		And if you were to project the rate of decline would go to zero in our lifetime.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		You sure wouldn't think it by seeing the population explosion, but okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, for now, okay.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, that would certainly do the trick, and it wouldn't take very long.
unidentified		Well, I mean, the theory is that we've got built-in mechanisms to control population, the Mother Nature variations, some of which are diseased, maybe the internal ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe the ultraviolet.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whatever.
unidentified		Shouldn't we be reasonably concerned about something like this?
		I think there's a bunch of things we need to be concerned about.
		I don't want to live my life in paranoia.
		I may change my mind after being on the show this evening.
		I think we've got to go forward as humans.
		We've got to live our lives as best we can.
		I think it's good that we're cognizant of these things.
		There's a lot of things that we may not be able to do much about other than just social awareness, carbochlorocarbons, things of that sort.
		There's some things we can do if we recognize there are problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're up in Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the biggest battles we've ever had was over the spotted owl.
unidentified		Oh, sure.
unidentified		A very emotional one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very emotional one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's cost a lot of jobs, and a lot of tempers have been lost over this, and people got socked in the nose over it.
unidentified		And a few owls got nailed to Parkstyne, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've heard that.
		What is your position on the whole spotted owl thing?
		Were they really threatened?
		Are they really threatened?
		Are the measures they've taken justified, in your opinion?
unidentified		Well, let me add an added part to this whole thing, which...
		Oh, yeah, that's sure.
		They know how to find me here.
		There's an interesting twist to all that, which is the barred owl.
		The barred owl is a bigger, faster, stronger owl, sort of a turbo owl, if you will.
		And if we do nothing, absolutely nothing as humans, the barred owl is probably going to drive this bod owl into extinction by mating with it and creating hybrids or just simply driving it out into the territory.
		So one of the interesting questions, should we be out there as the little wildlife law enforcement officers that are shotguns, shooting every bar dowl we can to protect one endangered species and thereby create another one?
		Well, actually, there is a little politician in you, isn't there?
		A basic question, right?
		Okay, let's think.
		I tried.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are the measures taken justified, in your opinion?
unidentified		The owl isn't the issue.
		The issue is the nature of the habitat.
		The owl is simply an indicator species.
		That's the crucial issue, that the sense of the forest habitat decline is really the crucial problem.
		So in other words, they use the owl to protect the habitat.
		The owl is a canary in the mine shaft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your answer is sort of yes.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		And you're right.
		It's a sort of answer.
		Whether the owl itself is crucial, whether a hybrid, you know, barred owl, spot owl is really a better owl to have out there, you know, that's more of a philosophical biology splitter joiner question.
		But I don't think there's any question at all that we're causing damage to our habitat.
		And that's something we have to worry about as humans because that's our fishbowl.
		That's where we live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi, Mike Phoenix.
		Yes, sir.
		I just watching Species, the climax of species here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't seen it yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm dying to see it.
unidentified		It is worthwhile.
		It's exciting.
		I just had a couple of comments.
		You had that question on what is the ultimate outcome of someone that's HIV positive?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		From what I understand, about half of the people, maybe 55%, will ultimately get full-blown AIDS.
		About 20% to 25% will get the ARC.
		They'll eventually die along 20-year deaths with AIDS-related complexes.
		And then there's about 20%, it seems, and the numbers are going down there a little bit, but it seems to be studying out at about 20% will carry HIV positive, but they'll be asymptomatic.
		Which may be, we need to find out why their immune systems can do that.
		That may be our key.
		I hope I'm one of those that will be asymptomatic.
		I'm not HIV positive.
		I have checked that out.
		But I wanted to just comment hard, keep up the good work, and glad to hear that there's a lot of people here in Phoenix that support your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's incredible.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		I appreciate it.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Ken.
		Yes.
		one question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right where are you calling from?
unidentified		Oh this is Matt from Eugene, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Oh okay.
unidentified		Okay Ken how much time and effort does your department spend on tracking down and investigation of the poaching of deer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Oh okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have 2009.
unidentified		Ken Goddard is the director of the fish and a National Fish and Wildlife Forensics Lab up in Ashland, Oregon.
		He is our guest and here he is again and here is Pete.
		Pete Portland, thank you for holding on.
		You're back on the air.
		Okay.
		The conservation of genetic information, the first strategy, we emulate plants with agriculture.
		The second one is where we come from.
		We emulate our ancestors by migratory exploitation of patches of an environment, coming back around next season to re-exploit them since they've recovered.
		You have the American Indian and the buffalo, the wolf pack and the reindeer herd, things like that.
		Okay, the third and most important strategy, I suppose, is that of making a sealed-off ecology, kind of like the biosphere, that's highly controlled as opposed to the chaotic greater ecology from which it arose.
		And that is the strategy of social insects, of the beehive, the termite mouth, and the antnest.
		And it requires a ruthless central control.
		So ruthless that only one set of genes can be permitted to hang on into the future.
		And every component part of that system must have its will bent to that one purpose, by chemical means, by fair or foul.
		And when we emulate that strategy, we call it city building.
		We call it civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
unidentified		Now, listen, there's a lot of evil that is created, a lot of suffering, let's say.
		And it's no surprise that we have to do it because it's the one strategy that can get us what we and every other creature on this planet need.
		And that is, quickly, technology to get genetic information off this crusty blue teardrop before some cosmic slushball or one of a million other things annihilates all of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Well, do you agree with that?
		Or do you think that they don't intend on being a drone, first of all?
		I want to fight back.
		I'd rather go as a human.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		All right.
		Good answer.
		And I'm now going to bring up something that's really odd.
		I don't know how to address this with you except to tell you I know it's true.
		In the New Yorker magazine, the new issue of the New Yorker magazine, there is an article saying that sperm counts, male sperm counts, human, worldwide, are going down at a rate they have never seen before.
		And if you were to project the rate of decline would go to zero in our lifetime.
		Oh, really?
		Yeah.
unidentified		You sure wouldn't think it by seeing the population explosion, but okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, for now, okay.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, that would certainly do the trick, and it wouldn't take very long.
unidentified		Well, I mean, the theory is that we've got built-in mechanisms to control population, the mother nature variations, some of which are diseased, maybe the system of internal ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe the ultraviolet.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whatever.
unidentified		Shouldn't we be reasonably concerned about something like this?
		I think there's a bunch of things we need to be concerned about.
		I don't want to live my life in paranoia.
		I may change my mind after being on the show this evening.
		I think we've got to go forward as humans.
		We've got to live our lives as best we can.
		I think it's good that we're cognizant of these things.
		There's a lot of things that we may not do much about other than just social awareness.
		Carbochluorocarbons.
		Things of that sort.
		There's some things we can do if we recognize there are a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're up in Oregon.
		One of the biggest battles we've ever had was over the spotted owl.
		Oh, sure.
unidentified		A very emotional one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very emotional one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's cost a lot of jobs, and a lot of tempers have been lost over this, and people got socked in the nose over it.
unidentified		And a few owls got nailed to Parkestine, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've heard that.
		What is your position on the whole spotted owl thing?
		Were they really threatened?
		Are they really threatened?
		Are the measures they've taken justified, in your opinion?
unidentified		Well, let me add an added part to this whole thing, which...
		Oh, yeah, that's sure.
		They know how to find me here.
		There's an interesting twist to all that, which is the barred owl.
		The barred owl is a bigger, faster, stronger owl, sort of a turbo owl, if you will.
		And if we do nothing, absolutely nothing as humans, the barred owl is probably going to drive the spot owl to extinction either by mating with it and creating hybrids or just simply driving to the territory.
		So one of the interesting questions, should we be out there as federal wildlife law enforcement officers with our shotguns, shooting every barred owl we can to protect one endangered species and thereby create another one?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, there is a little politician in you, isn't there?
unidentified		Abasic question, right?
unidentified		Okay, let me get, I tried.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are the measures taken justified, in your opinion?
unidentified		The owl isn't the issue.
		The issue is the nature of the habitat.
		The owl is simply an indicator species.
		That's the crucial issue, that the sense of the forest Habitat decline is really the crucial problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, they use the owl to protect the habitat.
unidentified		Yeah, the owl is a canary in the mind, Chad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, your answer is sort of yes.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		You're right, it's a sort of answer.
		Whether the owl itself is crucial, whether a hybrid barred owl, spot owl is really a better owl to have out there, you know, that's more of a philosophical biology splitter joiner question.
		But I don't think there's any question at all that we're causing damage to our habitat.
		And that's something we have to worry about as humans because that's our fishbowl.
		That's where we live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller align.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hi, Mike Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi, I just am watching species, the climax to species here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't seen it yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm dying to see it.
unidentified		It is worthwhile.
		It's exciting.
		I just had a couple of comments.
		You had that question on what is the ultimate outcome of someone that's HIV positive?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		From what I understand, about half of the people, maybe 55%, will ultimately get full-blown AIDS.
		About 20% to 25% will get the ARC.
		They'll eventually die along 20-year deaths with AIDS-related complexes.
		And then there's about 20%, it seems, and the numbers are going down there a little bit, but it seems to be studying out at about 20% will carry HIV positive, but they'll be asymptomatic.
		Which may be, we need to find out why their immune systems can do that.
		That may be our keep.
		I hope I'm one of those that will be asymptomatic.
		I'm not HIV positive.
		I have checked that out.
		But I wanted to just comment, all right, keep up the good work, and glad to hear that there's a lot of people here in Phoenix that support your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's incredible.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		I appreciate it.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		One question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, where are you calling from?
unidentified		Oh, this is Matt from Eugene, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Okay, Ken, how much time and effort does your department spend on tracking down and investigation of the poaching of deer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		We have 220 special agents out there throughout the United States.
		I would guess between duck waterfowl hunting and deer, that's probably two-thirds to three-quarters of the work, not counting the state fishing game people.
		We support all those folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's a big percentage.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Minnesota.
		All right.
		I was wondering if Mr. Goddard could tell me anything about whirling disease and also...
		Yeah, with the trout, and also what are the chances of it making it over here to Minnesota.
		I can't hang out too long.
		I've got to go, so I'll just...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm not a fisheries biologist.
		I don't know the nature of the vector involved.
		I might want to answer that.
		Madison Health Lab would be one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know what it is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never even heard of whirling disease.
unidentified		If my memory serves me, I hate to do this on the air because I'm not sure I'm right.
unidentified		I believe it's with the balance of the fish not being able to maintain itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they start whirling around and spinning.
unidentified		But that's been a long time since I've read about it.
unidentified		There's got to be somebody out there who knows about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another interesting thing that I've heard recently, Ken, for what it's worth, is that fish that are normally in the South Atlantic, you know, the Caribbean and down in the warmer waters, are massively showing up in the colder waters to the north, and nobody can figure out why.
unidentified		You're describing a tremendous number of interesting puzzles.
unidentified		We ought to get you into the service.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I specialize in these.
		I really have to pay attention to them, and there could be a lot of reasons, I suppose, for that.
		I don't know what they are.
		I just read the report.
unidentified		Yeah, you want to get somebody in, if I can say the words, Washington office, who has a broader scale of knowledge on some of these things.
		We have a scientific authority, a tremendously good scientist, whom you talk into being on the show.
		I think you get a broader sense of answers.
		I tend to be narrowly focused in what I know or think I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we'll talk about that.
		Believe me, we'll talk about that.
		East of the Rockies, you're on here with Ken Goddard.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Hi, Ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm from St. Louis.
		Yes.
		I understand that biological warfare includes man-made viruses.
		So why would A. Very bola be exempt from being man-made viruses?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, good question.
		Thank you.
		They're not necessarily, are they?
unidentified		I don't know you can say they're exempt.
unidentified		The sense I have, and this is strictly my own sense or opinion, is that the complexity is probably beyond us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to ask you earlier when you made that same statement, have we ever, is it a true statement to say we have never cured a virus?
		I actually never cured a virus.
		I don't know.
		Cured.
		Even the common cold.
unidentified		Well, yeah, because the virus is really a pretty simple creature.
unidentified		It's a kind of protein sheath with some genetic material in the middle that attaches on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you think of one we've cured?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		I don't know how you define the term.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In any mammal.
		Yeah.
		So I guess the answer is no.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Hello.
		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tennessee, turn your radio off, please.
		Ken Goddard.
		Hello.
		All right.
		Well, we're going to have to leave the line.
		We can't survive that way.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yeah, how are you doing, Morgan said?
		Hi, David.
		How you doing, Ken?
		Just fine.
		I don't know why that guy asked about the MHC complex, if that really has to do with interleucing 1 and 2.
		If it had anything to do with firmarones, you know, for the 5-carbon isoprene grouping extract.
		This sounds like a biochemist here.
		We need to get him on here.
		My brain's just trying to unravel anyway.
		But yeah, what I wanted to ask you about, for the retrovirus like AIDS, AVT is a reverse transcriptidate drug.
		Now, you'd know more about how it targets the polymerase.
		No, I wouldn't.
		I have a forensic scientist who only, you know, I'm like art.
		I read a bunch of stuff.
		I don't necessarily understand all I read.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you're trying to ask a question that would require a doctor, a physician, scientist here.
unidentified		Yeah, I thought you might have a little more insight because of biochemistry.
		My biochemistry is back in 1968, I'm afraid.
		I'm not sure.
		We'd have to start all over again.
		Okay, well, I wanted to ask you, because this is just something I had, a weird idea.
		I'm a pharmacologist, uh-huh.
		But anyway, I always thought that maybe that we might find a viroid or a bacterial phage that would attack the HIV virus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
unidentified		And that might be our drug of the future.
		I just wanted to see what you thought of it.
		I didn't know what you were saying.
		What I remember a studying of all that, it sounds like it's something that could happen.
		Not what prevents it from happening, I haven't the slightest clue.
		How many people out there do know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many viruses do we know about 10 in history that have, in essence, burned themselves out?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ebola, for example, burns quickly and then burns out as long as it's not a densely populated area.
unidentified		Well, I was wondering, did they ever find the sources?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not to my knowledge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		You know, whether it burned out or went to a stable state in a host waiting for another better host.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like it's always sitting there waiting, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, that would be the unnerving part, I think, is determining what its, what would you call it, dormant host might be.
unidentified		There's some scary crime machine work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's exactly right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is Rick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Rick.
unidentified		Hey, I had a question or a topic to bring up.
		I read several months ago that the way some things are introduced into our United States here is because of the spraters and shipping that comes across.
		They let's say dock in Hong Kong, and then what they theorize is that how the swine flu got here is that attaches itself like the barnacles of ships and then they bring it across to the colours.
		Although keep in mind, we seem to be getting the we keep getting the new variations that come across from Asia.
		So you kind of suspect that there's the old human transport as well.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I flew.
		Everybody flies every day.
		We get plane after plane from Hong Kong and Tokyo and Bangkok and far eastern points.
		And so, sure.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
		Yeah, we know that they're finding new ones in Asia, new swine flu variants, if you will.
		And those are the ones they're trying to make, what, inoculations against.
		I see.
		So it's certainly something to keep us alert.
		It sounds like it's one of those unending things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it does.
		What factors would be at work, for example, in China?
		Is it hygiene?
		Is it the number of people?
		China, of course, is peopled.
unidentified		My understanding is it's close interaction with the swine.
		I was in China for a while, as foolish as it may sound, a diplomat.
		You were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't see that on your bio.
unidentified		Well, it was sort of a strange deal.
		I was sent there to help evaluate whether China and Taiwan could enforce the Endangered Species Act, but I'm not sure that our views were going to be very tremendous.
		But I did get to see a lot of China.
		It was fascinating.
		I did see a lot of people in close round with swine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I, too, was in China last year, went up into communist China, and the density of the population there, unbelievable.
		Yeah.
		Unbelievable.
		And if something were to ever become loose there, that certainly could be generated there.
		It could certainly move very quickly through an awful lot of people in that country.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And as you indicated, you have Hong Kong, Singapore, a major airline contact point.
		We just, you know, as people, we move about.
		It's hard to contain something that would be contagious, you know, like a flu butter.
		I don't know how you do it.
		You see the face mask in Asia a lot.
		That's certainly a reasonable attempt.
		We don't do that much here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're doggone, right?
		And I'll tell you a story in a moment.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Ken Goddard.
		Where are you calling from, please?
		Rochester, New York.
		Rochester.
		Hi there.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello hi.
unidentified		I'm sorry, I didn't.
unidentified		We lost you about an hour ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They start their morning show back here.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		But the reason I'm calling is I wanted to know the publisher for your book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ken, who is your publisher?
unidentified		Oh, for the Tor Forge.
		Tor is a science fiction publisher who has an open mind, and they decided to do some mystery thriller types.
		Okay.
		They're fun to work with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what was the name again?
unidentified		Prey and Wildfire are the Wildfire Tour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, the publisher.
unidentified		Oh, it's Tor Tor, T-O-R.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		T-O-R, Tor.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Take care.
		And all right, I'll give you a choice, Ken.
		It's really late.
unidentified		I'm starting to fade out, and I think I do owe the government a full eight hours of being awake tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think you do, too.
		We all want our money's worth here.
		Yeah.
		So, off to work, you off to bed, and then off to work.
		And, Ken, it has been a sincere pleasure having you on.
unidentified		I thoroughly enjoyed myself.
unidentified		I hope you'll invite me back sometime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Depending on other topics.
		Depend on it, Ken.
		Thank you, my friend.
		Sleep tight.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Ken Goddard.
		Whoa, what a guest.
		What a show.
		If you want copies of it, you can call 1-800-917-4278.
		I'll give you that one more time.
		Beginning right now, it's a four-hour program.
		1-800-917-4278.

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