Emmanuel McLittle, founder of Destiny Magazine, recounts his rise from Detroit’s inner-city chaos—growing up in a violent, 14-sibling household, surviving the 1967 riots, and later earning degrees despite early dropout struggles—while rejecting reparations, interracial marriage, and liberal policies as solutions for black progress. He argues systemic racism is overstated, blaming generational dysfunction instead, and insists self-education, family stability, and divine intelligence behind human diversity are key to empowerment. Critics like Louis Farrakhan’s marches and welfare dependency fail his test of practicality, but he avoids conservative labels, framing his views as common-sense rebellion against liberal manipulation. Ultimately, McLittle’s unfiltered perspective challenges mainstream racial narratives, urging personal accountability over collective grievances. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be.
And welcome to another edition of Coast to Coast AM.
Live talk radio throughout the nighttime while others repeat, regurgitate, and recycle.
We're actually here live from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands in the west, all the way out east to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south, well into South America.
I know that to be true, north to the Pole.
This indeed is coast to coast a.m.
You know, working these hours, I confuse myself half the time about which day I'm talking about.
And I thought I had scheduled Emmanuel McLittle for Thursday.
Last night, I think I said he would be on tonight.
So, I called up Emmanuel and he said about same thing.
Anyway, he's here.
Emmanuel McLittle is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of something called Destiny Magazine.
Grew up on Detroit's West Side, so a lot of the hometown folk are going to be listening in Detroit.
Attended Mumford High School, getting by with poor reading skills, non-existent study habits, and a lackluster work ethic like millions of young black males.
He was programmed angry.
During his senior year in high school, Emmanuel and his wife, now 27 years, Sharon, became parents.
They married, both finished high school at a later time, a high school dropout.
Emmanuel eventually took a job as a security guard at Mercy College of Detroit.
Very pedestrian thus far.
While at Mercy, the school made tuition available to all full-time employees.
And here's where I think Emmanuel takes off.
Recognizing the opportunity, he found himself working to complete high school in the evenings while working during the day.
At 21 years of age, he began his freshman year at Mercy College and caught fire with a thirst for reading.
His favorite areas of interest were psychology, history, political science.
In two years, he earned an associate degree.
The, quote, taste of achievement, end quote, hooked him.
In just 18 additional months, and I'll tell you, it's like a drug, this high school dropout graduated with a 3.6 grade point average, a Bachelor of Arts degree in sociology.
The anger had been replaced with a drive to do something about the dark conditions in the very inner city he grew up in.
A couple of more years, he earned a master's degree in psychology from the University of Detroit.
By now, he was a different person altogether.
A candidate for U of D's doctoral program, he had additional schooling to support his growing family.
In the first job as a parole officer for the state of Michigan, a slow transformation.
A morphing, I guess, the morphing of Emmanuel.
His political ideals began to take shape.
Nothing would be the same after that.
And now, I guess, well, we're going to find out.
I wonder if he would label himself Emmanuel Little.
Yes, in the hills of Oregon, where I've lived for the last year and a half.
And it is a move that has attached itself to the rear end of this morphing that you're talking about.
Because it is another piece of my individuality that began way back in those years when I knew and began to progressively know that there was a reality out there different than what was in my head.
I sat as a young boy, and what I didn't know at the time was a confusing, sometimes angry, frequently unnourishing environment like millions of young black boys at seven or eight years of age.
And I found comfort watching Huff and Little Joe ride off into the sunset and sit around a huge fireplace with a living room that looked like all outdoors and speak about principles that I didn't hear spoken about in my home.
And a love for that outdoors, that distance, that freedom, that sense of family touched me as a child and never left me.
A confusion, typical problems between black male and black female in terms of my mother and father.
My mother was dominant in our household.
My father was less dominant and almost like one of the older brothers in a sense.
And I'm being this descriptive because later on I will be equally as descriptive in terms of talking about some of the dynamics that exist in black homes today and the connection and links between that kind of environment and what we see as a continuing, lagging problem with blacks being on the bottom rung of the ladder.
He was not around psychologically, provided little support in terms of growing, rendering, and developing young men, six of my brothers.
And as I said earlier, I found frequent and comfortable escape watching those things like Bonanza on TV that took me to another place.
And I think that was the genesis of my later years, finding particular enjoyment, not doing some of the things that some of my friends would do.
I enjoyed a ride 80 miles away into the country, and I enjoyed the hills and the quiet and the cow poop and the sense of serenity that I found, and it never left me.
And when I was able to decide what I was going to do in terms of where I was going to live, I found a place called Selma, Oregon, that provides a similar scenery and a similar feel to what I found very comfortable at six years old.
At that particular age, I didn't see color, nor did I see economic status.
What I saw was a dad and sons who talked about life, who had something to say to each other that was frequently not argumentative, who put their lives on the line for each other in terms of defending each other's ideals and principles.
There was a freedom there that I did not experience as a child.
And I'm suggesting to you and your audience that as I grew and finally become age-educated about what it means for whole happy development in a child, I can now suggest that all children have a sense of knowing about what is peaceful and what is happy and what is proper.
If you weren't angry at 13 years old and you didn't know how to sight at 14 and you didn't treat your girlfriend in a rough fashion, you were kind of like a punk where I grew up.
And so, yes, my resentment frequently was directed towards my father, who I knew had a kind of a lacking in the sense that he was 20 years older than my mother.
And I never saw anything loving in terms of their exchange with each other.
I saw arguments and verbal violence more often than I saw anything else.
And so I had a deep anger towards my parents because there was a sort of knowing inside of me, as there is in millions and millions of young blacks today, that there was some responsibility on their part for the difficulties that I experienced as a young man thrust into a world that was not very friendly.
Well, I want to mention that I talk to them by way of a 60-page glossy magazine every other month.
But the route that I took was one that I believe is offered to all of them.
And when I say them, I mean there are brothers and sisters sitting in Detroit that I haven't seen or spoken to in 20 years.
And this distance that exists between them and I is the result of my having moved in an entirely different and foreign direction as they.
And it began with reading and finding out that I wasn't so stupid and throwing off this sense of inferiority that comes with anger, hostility that young men develop.
And when I sat in a classroom with rather well-to-do white students at Mercy College, and I made the first discovery that I was not stupid, that I had some kind of understanding about life and other things that some of these students did not,
and that I needed to do nothing but get the mechanics, the reading, the study habits, the discipline to make it through the course material, to carry a decent sized load.
And that happened for me in the very, very first year.
Yes, there was prior to my having got to Mercy College.
Mercy College came as a result of a series of other things.
My wife and I were parents at 18 and 19 years old, and we live in the heart of Detroit's bowels, sort of like in its inner city.
If you know where the Detroit riot started in 1967, it was at a place called 12th in Claremont.
Well, we lived in that vicinity when we were first married because that is the place where you could get $50 a month apartments, sometimes it had leaky roofs and rather cheap rent.
And I had what I think to be somewhat of a revelation standing on my porch and watching the whores and the drug addicts walk down the street past my home.
And I stood on my porch one day and watched my sons who were one and two, three years old, playing in what should have been grass, but mud.
And I just had a sense at that very moment that I had to get out of here, that I had to take my children out of here.
And I had only one difficulty.
I had a value system that was very similar to the mentality that I was surrounded by.
And I had no money.
And I had nothing of value except a 1965 Bonneville that had more expensive speakers and skirts.
I don't know that you remember what skirts are, but I remember my Bonneville.
Anyway, there you are in Detroit, angry, but somehow, what I need to find out is, if you know, what happened to you that could happen to the people listening to you in Detroit and the other big cities, L.A., elsewhere, what is that thing?
Yeah, I remember, Emmanuel, when I was young and lived in the Northeast, and we would ride through on the train areas, really rough areas of the Bronx and so forth.
And I would look at the tenements there, and I would say, to myself, why would anybody stay there?
Why wouldn't they run away?
Why wouldn't they grab their family and every penny they could get their hands on and head for the hills?
I think they're getting worse because we worked too hard to heal the wound.
And the effort that we took to heal the wound actually tore it open again.
And there is a little concept that says that there is a point in which one individual or a group of people, a race of people, has to overlook those injuries and harms that took place to them collectively at some time in the past.
And for blacks, that did not happen.
There is a sense in America that blacks have to get back, that we have to have some kind of reparations, that we have to be arrogant and angry and hostile towards the descendants of white people who mistreated us.
And so, instead of taking the route that says in reality that there is a history in the human race where everybody has been somebody else's slave and that at some point the getting back has to stop and there has to be a leveling out of those feelings that demand revenge, you see.
And so now we are in a place and a political position where we can demand reparations.
We can demand a right to be racist ourselves.
We can demand that you accept our harshness and our anger and our hostility.
And in that state of mind, is it possible to know what the right amount of payback is?
The message of Destiny is that it actually provided a little relief for me in the beginning of my sort of journey to what I believed to be was a sort of reality that I discovered later on had been talking to me inside my head since the day I decided that the Bonneville had to go and that there was no other money for which me to escape where I was, the place that I was.
How to do what I did, and that choices, the choices that we make as individuals, are not a whole lot different than the choices that we make as a whole group, a whole race of people.
That when you choose wrong, the results will be wrong.
And that we have for too long chosen out of a sense of anger about slavery and have therefore gone into a direction that has created an environment in our neighborhoods, in our household, that is all wrong.
And this wrong is reflected in everything, nearly everything that we read, nearly everything that we listen to, nearly everything that we are attracted to in terms of music, in terms of the culture that surrounds the minds of our children.
No, there shouldn't be reparations for black people because if there should be reparations for black people, then what money is there going to be left to pay for the slavery that took place in the continent where we came from?
Who pays that reparations?
And who pays the reparations of all of the other races that have been slaves in the world before us?
And if you pay reparations, how do you factor in the fact that black Americans live at a much higher level than other blacks anywhere else in the world?
I heard a black man, and I'm sorry I don't remember where the other day, said, you know, sometimes I hear blacks talking about Africa as though they would wish to go back.
He said, let me tell you something.
I went over to Africa here recently, and he said, I looked at the people and how they lived, the way they lived, the sounds that were around me.
He said, I couldn't get my butt out of there fast enough.
There's no more way I'd want to live in Africa than the man in the moon.
Nor do all of those people who are constantly hurling attacks at America as being the most racist place on the planet.
You don't see those people taking advantage of Pan Am's discounts that will take you overseas every weekend.
And so one of the things that Destiny magazine attempts to do is to provide a language and a basis for understanding that if you bite the hand that gives you the best, the biggest, the tastiest meal you've ever had, then you are responsible for your own negative lot.
And this is what's happened to blacks in this country on a political, social, and a personal level.
We have bitten the hand of the nation that allows us to have blacks heading some of the larger cities in this nation.
And that we, amongst some of the wealthiest, and there would hardly be any basketball were it not for blacks.
And we are police chiefs and school board presidents and teachers and physicists and scientists.
scientists in numbers in America that is unmatched anywhere else.
But if I would allow that kind of criticism to put a boulder in the road of my dreams, I would be back there with him, slapping backs and playing Jin Rummy.
But I'm not, you see.
And I say it out of no anger and malice whatsoever.
No, I'm married to a very, very attractive black woman.
And culture has no real great value for me.
I have created my own culture.
And while I am still a black man, I allow nothing to hem me in in terms of how I shall act, what I shall wear, who I should be, where I should go.
I'm a free individual.
And I am suggesting in 60 pages every other month how not only can my brethren, my personal, my family, my racial brethren, my colleagues, the people that I left back in Detroit, how this can be shared and experienced.
And that as long as we think of ourselves as a group and not as individuals who happen to be a different color, then we will continue to live in a prison and continue to blame white folks for that prison.
I don't think anything is wrong with a mixed marriage for blacks in a perfect world.
But for blacks, in my view, and I understand this from sort of like my psychology background where I worked with my people for many, many years, 12 years.
And you'd have to be blind and a fool to not see that rather than racism, there are some deep pathological problems inside the black community that emanate not in corporate America, but within the confines of the homes where young black men and women grow up.
And that there is such emotional destruction that that is really the genesis for some of the crime, really the geneses for some of the violence that we see in 20% of the young men who are in prison now and there is a need for some extensive repair and the repair must include a father and a mother.
Usually let me finish this.
It would be much more healthy for young black children to see their mother and their father work through their own destinies and work through a life that is transcendent of hostility and hate and anger and failure.
And I believe that in order to do so, that has to include both members of what it takes to be a family, a black man and a black woman.
This is not anti-white.
This is not anti-interracial marriage.
It is pro the kind of building blocks that's needed to create an organism, a race, of health.
And I also consider it quite arrogant for human beings who did not create the color differences, which I believe to be rather beautiful from a panoramic point of view.
And we would be quite arrogant to attempt to get rid of them.
wouldn't we also be arrogant to prevent that change in other words as it occurs naturally whether it's black and brown or asian or white or whatever intermarrying I believe it's forced on us.
It is just now happening in the last 40 years that we have crossed each other's lines.
And don't get the impression that I am advocating that we don't deal with each other in different races.
I think it's quite possible for you and I to work in the same marketplace, that we do business together, that we be great friends, and that we sit and break bread together.
But it is my view that I should not mix with your wife, and that you should not mix with my sister.
That if you carry that mixing to its ultimate conclusion, then the races do disappear.
And it would be an odd thing for it to happen for human beings as well as for it to happen to trees or animals.
This great variety that existed, everything else on earth ought to exist in the human race as well.
And I am suspicious and have been suspicious for 20 years about this ongoing effort to get rid of it.
But what is to say that a black man and a white woman or the other way around or any other combination of colors and ethnicities can't mix and have as nurturing and loving a family?
I mean, if a man and a woman fall in love, regardless of anything, and they provide a nurturing home, I don't, I just, I don't see where the problem with that is.
I think that on an individual level, that people are able to come together and have that coming together not be reflected in the fact that they are different colors.
You name me a couple who makes the decision to marry each other and they are of different races.
And I say that if it's possible to strip away the psychological layers, that you will find the fact of that difference having too much of a factor in the decision to marry.
It's not possible.
A black man cannot ignore his wife's complexion if she's white.
Let's leave that for a second and talk about I did, it was toward the end of the O.J. Simpson trial, you know, when they had the famous Race is the Reason speech at the end by Cochrane.
And I talked to, for a couple of hours, black men down in Los Angeles.
Then I talked to black women in Los Angeles.
And I made a very important discovery.
I discovered there was an extreme anger on the part of black women toward any black man who, after having made it financially, you know, moving on up as it were, took on a white woman or a woman of another color.
Yes, because to black women, it represents abandonment.
If that man, and I disagree with you, they see it with poor black men who mix.
They hate it.
They hate it with a passion.
Because that is one more man that wasn't at home providing a model for his son that is one more man that one of them could not marry and they see something naturally wrong with their kind going to a different kind.
It is the ultimate to a black female in rejection.
It is the ultimate rejection.
And you must talk to a black female who speaks with you from the point of honesty, who will tell you that one of the reasons that O.J. Simpson is free today is because there was a resentment towards his wife that nobody ever spoke of.
People leave people for other people all the time.
But in the case of leaving, as you point out, a black woman for a white woman, as he made it, you know, financially, boy, oh boy, I took calls and I'm telling you there was some serious anger.
Well, in the 12 years that I did practice, I didn't get into a habit of saying you should do or you should not do.
A good therapist, and I since then don't believe in the powers of psychology anymore.
But a good therapist would simply show them the reality that they are trying to avoid in their own minds, and they will eventually tell you themselves that they shouldn't have done it.
I've heard it a thousand times, that the reason that we all get married in the same race is too often trivial and fickle and do not have enough of the deeper things that life is made out of.
Let's talk a little bit about the shadow government.
unidentified
Do you believe it's there?
Yeah, we've heard that term, you know, for so many years, and I thought it was this group in the Netherlands that sit behind smoked windows and make decisions like, you know, giant players of chess.
But it isn't.
We don't have the government anymore.
What we have is a loose coalition of bureaucracies, but we have no representation in that government.
So when I look at the Constitution, I see it as a really inspired and eternal document that has been sidestepped in almost every legal way possible.
So the process itself has been intentionally manipulated to facilitate a certain style of government.
And it's taken a while to set up, but I think it's set up now and it's working just the way they like it.
We need a systemic change in order to let the Republic be representative of the people again.
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's broadcast of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell was recorded on December 20, 1995.
Now, I'm beginning to hear a few similarities with what he's saying and what Louis Farrakhan says.
Louis Farrakhan is many things, but he is an intellectual.
He is interesting to listen to, and I'd love to interview him.
So in some ways, it's not like I'm interviewing Farrakhan here, but I do want to ask, Farrakhan says, if black people were given reparations, Emmanuel, in the form of money, that money would soon and quickly disappear non-productively.
What Farrakhan wants is in a way what I'm going to ask you whether you want, and that is he wants land, land in America.
He wants a place where black people in America can be by themselves.
I see myself at the total opposite end of the universe of Farrakhan's thinking.
I think we have all that we need in this country, and it is called not land, not money, but opportunity.
I think that living in the most prosperous place on the planet, having an opportunity to do whatever, live whatever, be whatever we want to be, is the great prize that all of the other groups in the world want, and they're streaming across a part of our border to try to experience it.
We already have it.
And I believe that American blacks are the recipients of a great gift.
And let me shock you a little bit more in my thinking that those slave ships that landed on the shores of parts of the African continent, in my view, while it was a harsh experience, it was a harsh ride.
It was a harsh 1 to 200 years of slavery.
But had it not occurred the blacks that you see having been lifted up by a tremendous tide would never have taken place.
And so if you are bothered at all about some of the things that I have said in the past, be bothered by this also, that I am grateful to the powers that be, that saw fit to put my ancestors on one of those boats.
Because I am an individual here.
I am all that I am inside.
And that goes so far beyond what color my skin is, that I am a man that has virtually no consciousness that I'm even black.
You seem to look at surface, and you hear some of the things coming from me, that you hear similar things coming from Louis Farrakhan, and you don't see anything except we're the same color and we sound similar.
don't seem to hear that it's two diametrically opposed hearts, minds, and souls, which you don't seem to attribute.
There are many, many intelligent people who see quite clearly that it is healthy for black children to have parents who look like them.
There is something wrong when men and women of the same race take years to ferret through some of the physical things that impede men from loving women's soul.
It is compounded when the races are also different, because I tell you, quite honestly, from having felt in the room with hundreds of couples, mixed couples generally are extremely more sexual.
And there is a lot of psychological sex embodied in the dissension, in the decision to interracially marry.
And sex is already a problem between men and women.
Because as fast as he can, a man has to learn for himself, for his wife, and for his children to learn to love his wife's soul and not her body.
I'm just saying, and I'll repeat what I said last hour, and then we'll get to phones because a lot of people want to talk to you.
But we both realize that most marriages begin with a mainly sexual or passionate attraction.
Then after months or years pass, one of two things happens.
Either they find their differences are irreconcilable and the original sexual attraction is gone, or they fall in a deeper, more mature love and understanding of each other.
The sex remains always to some degree, but they either become soulmates, as it were, and that takes over and continues the bond, or they get to the point where they are very different.
And to me, that could happen either in a mixed marriage or in a same-race marriage.
What you call irreconcilable differences is usually men who are not ready to realize that the reasons that he decided to marry this particular woman was frequently too many of the wrong reasons, and she was looking for love in the wrong place and discovered earlier than him that this wasn't it.
And love is absent.
So irreconcilable difference is a shallow way of describing what really takes place in the conflict between men and women.
Yo, sure, but look, all I'm trying to get through all of this fog is that these things that go right or go wrong can happen in a mixed marriage or a same-race marriage.
Yep, but I grew up and was born and raised on Sewer and Bangor and Hancock, all throughout Detroit.
Actually, I grew up quite like yourself.
A family of 10.
Father was self-employed.
We grew up actually in the nation of Islam.
We grew up with this influence.
And as I grew and I went to college in North Carolina, I realized that this Nation of Islam was not representative of Islam.
I started taking the course that Malcolm took.
I understood Malcolm as being similar to me.
He grew up in the streets.
He was a hustler.
He was a gangster, the whole ghetto subculture, what you see today.
Then he transcended to a nationalistic view.
Quite like yourself.
Even though you're very educated, you still aspise to these nationalistic views.
And as I researched and studied more and found out what Islam had to offer, I started to look at situations surrounding race.
And in the Quran, it says, God created man in the different nations and colors and tribes so that they may come to know one another, not so that they may despise one another.
Okay, America, in its attempt with man governing man, in its attempt, identifies people based on color identification.
So they have taught us well on how to take on these biases and understand, understand me well.
I don't subscribe to any tenets of racism.
I know Muslim men and women, black, white, Somalian, Korean, who are Muslim, and they live in harmony.
They raise their children in harmony simply because they follow a specific type of belief system.
Now this is what divides mankind and their beliefs.
So you still, even though you're educated and well educated, have you, you still subscribe to this belief system that America teaches all of us, which is secularism or this understanding.
And you look at the life choices that you made.
I've heard this program.
You took a program off of television as a youngster and it inspired you to sort of run away from your environment.
I understand that no matter where you live, it doesn't matter where you are, it's how you live.
God doesn't share his culture with me, but I think it is quite natural for me to identify, love, and want to procreate.
unidentified
But you're not operating on a natural ability.
You're operating on what you learned.
Learned behavior.
If you want to go back to something natural, seek what prophets had.
Seek what Moses taught.
And you ain't going to be able to find it unless you look at the Quran and you'll find human beings have not changed since the time of Adam, since the time of Noah.
You said, human beings, because you yourself said that you don't look to yourself as a race and you use your intellect and the ability that you have as an individual, but at the same time, you say that in mixed marriages, it won't work.
How can we say that?
How can we make a blanket statement like that if two individuals really care about each other and they're not, they love each other?
Because you have to look at behavior also.
This is why I agree with you about going back to family, marriage, and solving some of the problems that we face in society.
It's going to be an interesting ride this morning.
Emmanuel McLittle is my guest founder, publisher, editor-in-chief of Destiny magazine, and that kind of says it.
He came from Center Detroit, lives in Oregon now, and has many views that are very controversial.
And so it's going to be very interesting.
I am holding open my East of the Rockies line for people in inner city Detroit.
It should provide, I think, an interesting contrast.
I'm not looking for enemies at all, despite what Emmanuel may think of his.
I'm simply looking for people who would comment from that area which he came.
unidentified
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I get asked at so many places, do you really believe that we're being visited?
It's amazing how many people wonder about that.
The visitations have been happening since the beginning of time, haven't they?
Well, in that case, you're going to be thrilled to death.
Here they come.
All right, dear, thank you for your guest tonight.
His rational thinking and intelligent choices give me, as a white person, hope that all races may in the future see that we are not different in what we as human beings need in the form of acceptance, love, and belongingness.
At some point, no matter if you're black, white, or red, you need to give up being a professional victim, which your guest has definitely accomplished.
I'd be fortunate to rub shoulders with such a person.
I'd also like to thank your guest for helping me to not feel cheated for being cultureless in America and say thanks again, Art.
Your diversity never ceases to amaze me.
That is from Hawaii.
From Gary, the following comment.
Your guest is so far off that it is pathetic.
Emmanuel has made the assumption that race is synonymous with culture.
This view is horribly defective.
I am a Bavarian American, my girlfriend, African American.
We march through life in step.
In fact, she's listening to the show tonight, laughing at your guest.
I would ask your guest to demonstrate that Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas is of the same culture as Snoopy Dog Dog, or show me how Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams are in any way related to people such as Rodney King.
Or on the flip side, show me how I am of the same culture as Charles Manson or Ted Bundy or Hillbillies in Appalachia.
What's destroying minorities in general in America is their culture, not their race.
He is confusing something that he might have heard me say earlier, but it isn't worthy of comment.
And Bavarian married to African, I don't know what that means, and if it didn't make very much difference, the fact that there are different kinds of people, I'd like to ask that fact, the individual that wrote that facts, why it would even enter his mind to explain that they were different.
And, you know, had you any idea that you were going to somehow break out of the mold or get away from Detroit in a way which allowed yourself to be free-thinking, you know, it was almost impossible to do it there.
I can understand where you come from by going to Oregon, you know.
Well, I didn't come to Oregon right away.
I have gradually moved and I wasn't leaving blacks.
I was leaving pathology that I observed from my front porch, the crime, the hell, the stealing, the kind of things that no individual, regardless of color, wants to live around.
And let me tell you, one of the most threatening things, it seems to me, one of the most threatening things, especially to white liberals, is a black who's free thinking.
That's right.
Who thinks for himself.
If you think for one second that Clarence Thomas, who, while I love him, he's a good friend of mine, I would not have intermarried.
That's his own personal business.
I love him no less because he did.
But if you think for one second that his free thinking didn't scare the hell out of American liberals who have for years guided blacks in their thinking, guided them towards the failure and the hostility that we champion in nearly every program that you see on TV for blacks.
And yet they don't champion it for their own kids.
And so I say to you that I am used to, for 12 or 15 years now, whites who look at me and say, how dare you separate from your people?
How dare you think for yourself and be as you want to be and find appreciation in a white program like Bonanza as though it were not profitable for there to be values there.
Well, this is what happened to me.
And I'm fond of I've been calling shows for years talking about the fact that you don't sound much like this contrast that I was looking for.
Well, I want to introduce you to millions and millions of black Americans who have transcended that thinking, who read my magazine, who call and write my office on a daily basis.
If Destiny Magazine is to reach out and to teach people what you say you have learned, then it is exactly those people that you would want to be reaching, isn't it?
Okay, so now, Destiny Magazine, I take it, and I did ask you this earlier, is it not a way, don't you recall my asking, is Destiny not your way of reaching out to talk to the people that are in the situation you were in and in effect tell them how you did it?
You're the one who spent a lot of time talking about Detroit and the time you spent in Detroit and how you got out of there and why you went out of there and we talked about the first hour.
Well, you see, I don't want to get too psychological and talk to you about your personal relationship.
I'm just saying a decision that you made that I wouldn't make.
That's all I have to say about that.
I wouldn't do that.
But there is sometimes there are conflicts with people of the same race that should not be ran from, should be dealt with.
There even ought to be a struggle not to leave.
That there is something to learn about each individual during this struggle.
And the tendency to run away from it is a dead giveaway that there is something about yourself, not your mate, that you don't want to see.
And if life isn't about seeing and developing as a result of progressively more seeing, then it isn't anything.
So the reason that I wouldn't do it is because I think that marriage is the second opportunity for us to deal with parents, peers, all over again from a mature point of view.
You lady, if I live next door to you, and we were friends, I'm sure we could be.
That change, because you married outside your race.
Right, no.
unidentified
But I understand, but don't you feel, let me tell you that I have an 18-year-old son who is black, a 17-year-old daughter who is white, and we have a 12-year-old who is a little bit of everything.
And, you know, marriage at its best is work.
And I think that's true regardless of races involved.
What I would like to say is that our marriage has brought a tremendous amount of diversity into my life and to my husband's life.
And it has genuinely strengthened our marriage.
The work we've had to do around people's personal opinions and how we've dealt with that on an individual and together.
Our marriage has worked for going on 13 years now and it's strengthened it.
And the diversity that he's brought into my life, I am very, very thankful for.
And had I married a man of my own race, I wouldn't have that in my life.
And so the solution to educating and developing, which is the purpose of education, to develop young people into strong, whole, happy, and balanced adults, is not working.
So integrating schools isn't the thing.
And another shocker, neither is education.
We needed to learn how to make contact with the technology that is prevalent in our world.
We needed to read, we needed to write, we needed to add, subtract, and multiply.
But what makes human beings, human beings, begins long before a child gets to school.
And when a child doesn't get this ingredient that comes from a whole family or a particularly loving mother or a particularly loving father, then it's possible to go all the way to desertation time at doctorial school and be a fool.
If education was the solution to all of our problems in society, then we would be hard pressed to explain how the nation is in the mess that it's in in view of the fact that very educated, the best educated lawyers and lawmakers run our country.
Washington is full of them.
There is a Rhodes Scholar in the White House, but education didn't do it for him.
You see, something's wrong with our president.
He cannot see, he cannot even see that he's moving in the wrong direction.
He thinks he's moving in the right direction.
And his degrees didn't fix that.
So while I am a recipient myself of a lot of education, most of what I've learned in life had nothing to do with degrees and credentials and school books.
If we have been living in the time of wise men, wise men would have told us in the early 60s that to mix white and black children together does not necessarily ensure proper education.
That proper education can occur in an all-black classroom, in an all-white classroom, in a mixed classroom, in any kind of classroom.
It isn't the racial mixture in the classroom curriculum, whether or not the children are coming to school from homes prepared to learn.
Well, I think race relations are getting worse because this might be a little kajinxed, but in the 60s, we didn't do what many other groups who've come to this country and who were, in any instances, discriminated against.
There are some people that simply pulled their belts tight, ignored, walked around the discrimination, built their economies, built hospitals, built factories, became very independent, and wreaked discrimination and don't give a damn about who don't like them.
And instead of doing that, blacks were encouraged by a liberal elite who couldn't stand us then, hate us even worse now, to go into a very different direction and beat against the infrastructure of government as a way of addressing our problems.
It didn't work.
It was the wrong direction.
And now we still aren't there.
And we have $300 billion that sprinkle through our fingers every year.
And we still aren't there.
It was the wrong direction.
And if we had simply looked at racism for what it was, and I said it, facts to you, or I think I said something to you that racism doesn't have the power that we're all trying to pretend it does.
It doesn't have the power because if it does, there could be no Emmanuel McLittle's or Will Chamberlains or O.J. Simpens or Clarence Trump.
There could be none of us, you see.
So, and we're not extraordinary people.
We're just normal, ordinary, run-of-the-mill people who made it around what must have been some degree of racism.
I don't know how much racism I incurred because I never looked.
Art wouldn't necessarily be aware of the cap, but one of the things, gentlemen, I'd like to point out is, you know, I think you both got a little bit of sidetracked on some of the other issues here.
But in your magazine, Destiny, which I have occasionally read, unfortunately I'm not a regular reader.
I think I will become one.
The issue that really is important here, Art, I think, is how blacks who don't view liberal ideas and racism as the primary determinant of the outcome of their life can overcome that.
Emmanuel, if you were the welfare czar or the one who could change it in our lifetimes, as we've known it, as the president has not yet done, which he promised he would do, what would you do with welfare?
We do have enough wealth in this country to take care of obvious.
You know, I would want to see a 75-year-old woman who's blind and live alone and doesn't have any money and getting robbed every three or four days.
There's something that we can do.
I don't know that I would even give her welfare.
I would hope all of my hopes and aspirations has to do with the changing of people's hearts and minds.
And that in my future world, her family, her neighbors, would make the kind of sacrifice out of simple love for the woman that she could live very comfortably and very secure.
But we, not only do we not want to help our neighbors, we throw our parents away.
We throw our parents in places where they're beaten and abused.
I think that we all live in a culture called American culture, and that blacks have been encouraged to reject it.
And we've been encouraged to reject it, not because we genuinely hate it, but because this is another point that I've listened to you and I know that you disagree with, but I must say that I learned the lesson as early as 10 years old, living on a block where I didn't have the money to buy a bike, never had a bike until I got to be an adult.
But there was another kid on the same block who had a beautiful 10-speed.
I mean, I hadn't heard anything about a three-speed, but this guy had a 10-speed, beautiful red.
I wanted it.
And the inference that we sometimes hear that there is no one that wants to control the wealthiest, the most powerful, the most obviously gifted nation in the world is a fallacy.
There are people who want to change us.
There are people who want to manipulate, to deal with us, to put us down.
And I say Part of my reasons for being and doing what I do is I want to see large numbers of my kind racially on the right side of a great struggle that I believe is coming to this country.
I don't want us to be on the side of those people that I intuitively know hate our guts.
And we misconstrue who those people are.
We traditionally think that the haters of blacks are conservatives.
But the true haters are very, very Marxist in their thinking.
Say you graduate or you don't graduate, but you grow up, you have children, and you have no idea, except for maybe from your parents, maybe taught you a little bit here and there and what you saw around you.
But do you ever get educated when you get married, you have children, what to do with that child?
All the education covers everything, but it doesn't teach you how to raise a child.
And if you don't have it, in the first 12 years of life, you're out of the oven and almost done.
I can't tell you.
I wish I had three more hours to tell you the suffering, the psychologically skent knees, the hurting that I've done, the overcoming of certain blocks in my own mind, getting beyond my own troubles.
And it all came from having never experienced a whole happy environment.
And this is an embarrassing thing for black people to talk about.
I think that in the early 1900s there was for black America the same scenario that existed for Emmanuel standing on their porch on 12th and Claremount.
I had to make a decision and I wrestled with that decision for three days.
That car was the only thing that I had, and yet it was the only thing that I could sell, let go, and move and change my destiny.
We had a similar decision to make in the 1890s and 1900s.
And they were actually, the different routes were presented to us in the form of W.E.P. DeBose and Booker T. Washington.
One suggested that we overlook, that we get over our pain of slavery and begin to work hard to develop trade, to go to school, to become lawyers and doctors and build our own destiny and fortunes.
And another one suggested to us, let's start the NAACP so that they can collect funds from liberals and work to provide for us a means to beat against government in protest.
I think that translates to you wish I agreed with you a little more.
In other words, I am hearing what you're saying, and I am comprehending it.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with you fully, which you're feeling, I know.
But I think if you look back on the amount of time that I've spoken that I have spoken, we began at 11, we're two and a half hours into it now, I would bet that you had more airtime than I've had.
Mr. McLittle, I have read your magazine and enjoyed it.
Two issues you've brought up I feel very strongly about.
One I agree and the other I disagree with you.
First of all, when it comes to liberals, you couldn't be more right.
I feel that conservatives use their power and resources to empower big government and big business to continue exploiting people.
And liberals, on the other hand, find ways to pacify the serf class in America, otherwise known as the poor, to keep them from revolting against this system.
So I appreciate what you have to say, and I think you're quite right on.
However, when it comes to mixed-race marriages, I think you couldn't be more wrong.
I'm a member of a multicultural family.
I have Asians, Native Americans, and Afro-Americans and Caucasians.
My husband is Afro-American, and my children range from, we have four, blonde and blue-eyed to ebony black.
And we didn't marry because we have psychological problems we needed to work out.
And our marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it has or been as successful if our marriage was based solely on physical attraction.
And I feel that when people see us or meet us and are bothered by the choices we have made, it's because the fact that we are in attack.
Like you.
I don't know if this marriage until you've attacked it.
Everybody that's ever lived married their own kind.
You think that that's crazier than the opposite?
I mean, how do you explain that?
I'm trying to find how you're going to be able to do that.
unidentified
I'm explaining it by saying we have, oftentimes, we have limited choices.
Fortunately, I grew up in an area where I had a variety of choices and a variety of people I could get to know and interact with, and it broadened my horizon.
But it still happens in America, where we have one big part in America, and yet most people marry their own kind.
And you think that it's because they have limited choices?
unidentified
If most people engage in a certain activity, it doesn't condemn it, nor does it make it right.
In America, something's wrong with people who think we should be limited in our choices of our friendships, and marriage is based on skin color.
Oh.
period.
And as I was going to say, I think what dollars Well, I think you're trying to imply that there should be a limit on marriage, and marriage is preceded by friendship.
I correctly perceive that you have no desire for mixed marriages or see a good reason for them, but you do not condone the breakup of people who are, you know, trying to respect each other and make the best of whatever their situation is.
And the Executive Secretary of the Oregon Education Association.
That's his.
And he, as a labor union leader, is obviously a socialist.
He's the one who tutored me at the age of three and four in algebra and mathematics and phonetics because I was reading the Dick Jane and Spotted stuff because I was having trouble in school.
He's the one who told me that American education was woefully inadequate compared with European education.
He grew up in Germany.
Now, we went round and round about what was going on in America, vis-a-vis unions and socialism in general.
And I've come to discover that this socialist welfare state we have now is actually based on the model of plantation socialism.
And the thing about it is the divisions between us are not by color.
They're by who works in the big house and who is the field hand.
Everybody else who's not in the government, in other words.
I worship no way except in a small room in my home, sitting still.
But I think underneath all of the issues that we fight about is those of us who accept a false bogus notion that we climbed out of some pool of smot rather than the fact that there is an intelligence in the universe that created us.
I think that that difference is the greatest difference between us.
That we love or hate each other on this earth.
That underneath all of the wars where we seem to be fighting about things like economy and borders and territories, the truth, and I believe I've seen this in history, the truth is that there's always a side that has a view of our origin different than the other.
That to me is a greater difference underneath our consciousness because we talk enough about what we all know in our conscious mind, but there's so much stuff underneath there that we frequently don't say anything about.
And I think that, is there something bigger than us in the universe?
And are we different than animals?
And each of us have decided that on our owns individually, and we cling to or divide from each other in many instances based on that unconscious question.
Culture is what people eat and the way they think and the way they dress and where they go to church and what...
This tendency towards indoctrinating people to believe.
And I think I'm not trying to take all of the responsibility for where blacks are in the world today.
But there was a lot of it that came from manipulating liberals.
And liberals is a nice word for what these people who cannot live without controlling other people has done to this group.
And there's one thing that might be a little bit different in terms of my way of speaking.
What I don't see, and I'm happy that I don't see it amongst my people, is we do commit serious crimes against each other and whites, but we are not committing the biggest crimes.
We're not in any of those planning sessions that take place behind closed doors in the UN and Switzerland and The Hague and on some of those submarines where more meetings are held than you can shake a stick at.
And we are not amongst those people who want to manipulate an entire world into a form that is politically expedient for a very few people.
Yes, and blacks is merely a tool to make it happen in the United States.
And our instability is no coincidence.
Nobody that loves his country will allow just an area of TV alone to have transmitted those messages that have been transmitted to the minds, especially baby boomers like you and I, Art, and our child.
Nobody could allow that to happen unless they had bad designs on the country.
I'm of the generation or the offspring of those interracial marriages, and I was curious as to your opinion on basically where we fall into this whole race category.
Well, I can't speak specifically about you, you understand, but I do know that anybody with a willingness to read and research knows that during the 60s, a lot of the marriages and the sexual exchange that took place between radical blacks and feminist whites had nothing to do with love or concern for
the offspring that is now in their mid-20s.
And these groupings is only one example of what I mean when I say that there is a getting together by different races that is as devious and as dishonest as devious can get.
unidentified
Well, see, that says, or it has the implications that my whole existence is.
Yeah, and this is where I think you're dead wrong, Emmanuel.
There are some marriages that were based, as you suggest.
There are also interracial marriages that are based on nothing more than any other marriage is based on, and that is mutual attraction, friendship, love, and eventual maturing of that love, or a breakup, whichever way it goes.
unidentified
Let me ask you this, Mr. McLeod.
Do you think that over the course of time that we should, I guess, evolve away from individual racism, like races, and be as one as a human race?
I mean, I had someone ask me when I was applying for college what race I categorized myself under.
And I looked at the man, honestly, said human.
And he told me not to get smart with them.
He was very offended.
And yes, it is a smart comment, but it is also a very true comment.
And I don't categorize myself as being black or white.
You make a good point, and I can't tell you what my view would be in a world where we have transcended, God hope, that we do transcend, because we are much more than our skin colors.
Okay, but what you seem to say is that it'd be okay if eventually someday those differences occur naturally, but you are not willing to take that path to get there.
Let's talk a little bit about the shadow government.
Do you believe it's there?
unidentified
Yeah, we've heard that term, you know, for so many years, and I thought it was this group in the Netherlands that sit behind smoked windows and make decisions like, you know, giant players of chess.
But it isn't.
We don't have the government anymore.
What we have is a loose coalition of bureaucracies, but we have no representation in that government.
So when I look at the Constitution, I see it as a really inspired and eternal document that has been sidestepped in almost every legal way possible.
So the process itself has been intentionally manipulated to facilitate a certain style of government.
And it's taken a while to set up, but I think it's set up now and it's working just the way they like it.
We need a systemic change in order to let the Republic be representative of the people again.
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Tonight's broadcast of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell was recorded on December 20, 1995.
He is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Destiny Magazine.
We'll tell you at the end of the hour here, once again, how to get a copy of that if you would like it.
We'll give out the 800 numbers or get a pencil ready.
Right now, he's back on the air with Charlie.
Both of you are back on the air again.
unidentified
Well, I was simply saying that conservative policy has simply been devastating to black people, certainly devastating.
And the worst part of it has been their interference in the criminal justice system.
When you have conservatives cutting out inner-city programs and saying, let's build more prisons, well, those prisons are putting black people in those prisons.
And they talk about let's be less lenient with the laws.
Those black people, a young black person that commits a crime right now, can expect to do a lot more time rather than any type of rehabilitation type program.
Those are the conservatives who are locking up black people, and it amounts basically to a return to slavery.
So I'm sure a lot of conservatives are pretty well at that.
It is mostly black judges sentencing young black men to prison.
You need to check your facts.
unidentified
Well, you need to check the fact of who's setting the law.
A judge does not make the law.
A judge only goes by the law.
The people that are sitting making the laws are the white guys with the power going, okay, politically, I think it would be better for me if some kid robbed the liquor store for me to give him, say, eight years rather than two years.
You know, your kind of such cowards that you're not strong enough to wreak the havoc that you want to wreak on this country because you resent its president.
It's because it sucks me when I see President Clinton.
unidentified
It's not about giving anybody anything, but it's because we understand that there has to be a ladder in society and that some people in society have a head start over other people.
Not because they're smarter, not because they're better, but because of who they are and where they were born.
And let's face it, a white guy born to a rich family, no matter how intelligent he is, is going to have a head start over a black person born in the ghetto surrounded by drugs.
How do we explain intelligent black people who came from the ghetto?
unidentified
I think there are just as many intelligent black people born in the ghetto as there are white people born in a rich family.
Unfortunately, you have so many factors around you when you are in the ghetto, such as drugs, such as gangs, it's very difficult even for an average person to break out of that.
Blacks by the millions are learning something that liberals haven't caught on that we're learning yet.
And we're changing our minds quietly all over this country.
And we see you, my friend, for what you are.
And no, I don't take this personally.
I'm talking about liberalism.
I'm not talking about an individual.
But you are being seen, and you're so blind that you don't know that the bloods and the crips and the gangsters, the blacks that are in jail, we've had 30 years of watching you manipulate us.
We see you cruelly.
unidentified
Well, I think unfortunately, whether you're talking about extremism from a white extremist such as Tom Metzeker or an extremist like yourself, I don't think that you can speak for the majority of black people.
That bio is four or five pages, and you might be reading a line or two that mentions where I currently live.
Well, there's no stress ended at all.
What I'm happy to see is the number of people that are what I call perceptive, a tool that we need in these very, very slick 90s where so much of what's wrong is being presented as though it were good.
And it's over the heads of a lot of people.
But your audience, very intelligent audience, they see things that I sometimes worry, boy, do people see that?
And people hear what Tom Broke all tried to do today.
And man, I'm happy lately that so many people see what I see.
We stand a chance against those people who some of us want to deny exist.
And what my argument with you has been all night is that that can be the very same situation with a black man and a white woman, white woman, black man, or brown or any other color, Asian, whatever.
These same forces come to bear and the same reasons for initial marriage.
I don't deny that, that there may be an added complication, but the same process over years occurs, and either it matures into a real love, or it does not.
It's a sort of a coded speech called understanding, common sense, that has been ripped from the psyche of most Americans, not by somebody who did it by accident.
unidentified
I agree.
I totally agree with what you say.
But what I have to contain myself with Art is that he tries to rip you apart.
My guest, Emmanuel McLittle, founder, publisher, editor-in-chief, big guy at Destiny Magazine.
And we'll get back to him in a moment.
unidentified
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Now, we take you back to the past on Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
Listen, there's one thing I wasn't quite sure until tonight, but there's one thing I'm convinced of for sure, and that Art Bell has the best show ever.
This program is the most exciting that I've ever heard, far or none.
You've heard me say several times that there comes a period when difficulty and all of the fantasies that we went into the decision to select some of our mates is stripped away six, eight, nine, ten, twelve years for some people.
A difficulty arises that is painful, confusing, and sometimes puts in us a fight response.
And usually we run away from a pain that we don't want to face.
It is exactly the pain that we need to face that gives us a boost into that second layer of maturity that is in everyone if we would just stay.
And there are other things in life that does it, you know, basic training.
There's a lot of things that does it.
But one thing for sure that does the most for men and women to reach this level of maturity and perceptiveness is weathering that storm.
And if I've done anything right in my life, I'm married to my wife for 28 years, February 16th.
And it has been stormy.
But recently, there is a friendship growing that I wouldn't exchange for anything.
unidentified
Boy, that's really refreshing.
You know, you listen to all the talk shows, you listen to these psychologists that come on the air.
The attitude is, basically, if you got a problem, then ditch the guy.
If you don't feel like the relationship is working, then ditch them.
And that seems to be the attitude.
I've been married for 29 years.
My wife got a lot of money, and now she's decided to get a divorce.
And I talk to psychologists, whoever I can talk to, and they all just say, well, if she wants a divorce, there's nothing you can do about it.
And it really, I understand the reason for the court systems and whatever from the no-fall divorce, but you talk about the basics of the family, the ability to greet those issues and to learn who you are.
And I think that even more than any racial kinds of difficulties, I think the no-fall divorce has really, really hurt that problem.
I call it no blame or irresponsible divorce is the way I call it.
And if you loved her, make sure that if she separates from you, she doesn't do it with a firm knowledge that you loved in a way that she cannot duplicate.
She won't die a happy death, my friend.
I'm not saying to wish that honor, but don't yourself give up on it.
Something may have happened to her.
We're not inside each other's minds.
We can't make judgments about.
You can't even make a judgment about your wife.
I don't know your particular situation, but follow her to work.
Get on the freeway and get behind her.
29 years, don't let it go so easy.
Make your wife know that there's a love, deep love for her in your own self.
I am so pleased to hear from a man, a human being, and a black that seems to have a lot of rationale.
And it seems like you've been paying attention.
And you know what I'd give the credit to is actual raw experience.
And that you're giving this back to your race, letting them know that it's the internal combustion, that they must do it, that our handouts, and I've been so sick of this, Emmanuel, I've called and talked until I'm blue in the face.
You can't keep giving handouts and demand a person to be responsible.
You cannot spoil children and expect them to be obedient.
Because the stress that comes up through the trunk of a tree and stretches its limbs out to be huge is similar to the same kind of stress that's in human beings.
And if you don't let that stress force you to create ways to get your own food, your own housing, so many other things in the wonderful psyche that God has given us never happens, never grows.
unidentified
Absolutely not.
It takes oppression and resistance.
The men should know because they go to a gym and they work out on equipment to force pressure against the muscle.
Emmanuel, one great argument going on in this country right now about social services involves exactly how we get people off welfare.
And everybody wants to change welfare, hates it the way it is, understands the damage, the profound damage it is doing.
But we're a nation now, particularly in the black community, but whites too, filled with single-family households, mom, two, or three or fourteen kids, whatever.
And when we, whether it's now or two years from now, take mom off AFDC or welfare, there are infants ranging down to newborns nearly who will suffer as a result of that.
So we're having a great fight about how we achieve this.
Well it would be nice if the mentality that split our families and destroyed that structure of our society would admit it and show us all the connection between storm of families and an eventual policy that would allow you to take people off welfare within 18 months,
but absent any acknowledgement that something went wrong and ripped our families apart and now, having created these dependent people who could never, like a pet animal, never go out and see for themselves.
Something is gone.
I have a problem, a little problem.
And I'm in a dichotomy about it because if I had the pen, I'd sign the legislation tomorrow that in two years there is no more welfare.
And yet I know and have come in contact and sat in a closed room with people who never function again in life.
If there is a pot that you and I put our money in, you and I ought to agree mostly on where we ought to spend it.
And too many people, if there is anything close to freedom in America, it has to be connected with what we do with our money.
And too many people who put their money in this pot don't want it to go to where it's going.
And eventually, those people have as much right to withdraw their money from where it's being used as those people who believe they have a right to receive it.
And it is a double standard that has so angered whites.
I'll tell you, when I was a psychologist, hostility was my specialty.
And you know what happens to a hostility that you forbid a whole race of people from expressing?
Do you know how angry whites are, and particularly white men?
Liberals have got that right.
But part of the reason is that they're never allowed to vent it.
They're never allowed to say that they're angry about what has gone on in the black community.
And they're angry that such a 12% of the people has tilted the country on one side to the point where we're taking in water in our bowels, so to speak.
That's a right to be angry.
unidentified
Well, I'm not white.
You know, what would you think if Indians, you know, had a million man march?
And they have people who champion that ignorance as if it was something great.
And as long as we are a society that surrounds ourselves with a hypnotic kind of championing of ignorance, then you will always be able to control the masses.
And let no one tell you, let no one make you doubt that it's accidental.
unidentified
Oh, I don't.
And I think that hopefully that with your help and others that art can get beyond the veil.