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Dec. 15, 1995 - Art Bell

02:45:12

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Harnessing the Power of the Sun - David Kagan

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	Welcome to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	The night featuring Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening and good morning, respectively, across these time zones stretching from the Tahitian and Hawaiian islands and visions of candy canes.
	All the way across to the Caribbean and U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	Gotta write that down.
	Down into South America and north, we believe, all the way to the pole.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	And yes, we're live.
	Talk radio all night long.
	We go at quick ticks this morning.
	My guest is going to be David Kagan.
	What a great surprise it was.
	As you know, I'm a great science fiction.
	I guess everybody knows that by now.
	Only we're going to mix a little science fiction with a little science facts.
	David wrote a book called Sunstroke that I had read some number of years ago.
	It was actually one of my favorites in the genre of the Andromeda strain.
	A genre, yes, but certainly a different kind of book.
	The thing about this book, though, is that this novel, you see, is based on the true-life $19.5 million alternative energy proposal prepared by NASA and the Department of Energy.
	The story explores the disastrous potential of this particular project.
	Someday it could certainly be fact, and we'll find out how far they're going with it, or intend to go with it, and exactly what it's all about.
	I can tell you this much.
	As you know, we need alternative energy very much, and some people work on cold fusion or zero-point energy, and various machines.
	Well, this is a real project to put a satellite in orbit, where, of course, without the dense atmosphere, while you can collect sunlight in a very, very efficient manner, And convert it to energy, then of course you've got a problem of how to get it down to the earth.
	You can't run a cable, so what you can do is send it by microwave.
	And that is how Sunstroke begins.
	He's written another book as well, and we will explore that.
	So it'll be a science fiction-laden, fun kind of morning.
	This morning, and I think you're going to enjoy it.
	it stay tuned because that is coming up next it uh... it really is pretty cool
	you know to read a book and be a fan of of an author a book for a long time and then suddenly get up a letter from him
	with another second Now I have two copies of Sunstroke.
	This one signed, I might add.
	You know, it's something that you've really enjoyed years ago, and then to get a letter and find out he's a fan of the show, has been listening to the show.
	That's David Kagan.
	Since 1986, Mr. Kagan has headed the SpectroScan Corporation, that being a consulting firm specializing in metallurgical testing and analysis of ferrous and non-ferrous alloys and comosite materials.
	The company employs various non-destructive inspection techniques including ultrasonics, radiography, and any current electrical conductivity.
	Kagan is a graduate of Northrop University with a Bachelor of Science degree in Metallurgical Engineering.
	He has been under contract with the Quality Control Research and Development Department at Northrop The California-based manufacturer of the Stealth B-2 bomber.
	That takes me back to the composite materials part.
	And the MX missile.
	Kagan has participated in the non-destructive testing programs for the F-5E and YF-17 jet fighter-interceptor projects at Edwards Air Force Base.
	A lot of you know where that is, about 75 miles northeast of L.A.
	Also served as consultant for the Materials Research Group at Rockwell International Space Division in Downey, California, for the Garrett Auxiliary Power Division in Tempe, Arizona, and for other firms and military bases throughout the state of Arizona.
	So, he's got the right background, that's for darn sure, and as I told you, I loved his book, Sunstroke, Here he is.
	David Kagan.
	David, are you there?
	Yes, Mr. Bell, and I want to thank you for having me on your coast-to-coast show.
	I'm real proud to be here with you tonight.
	Oh, well, we're happy to have you.
	Great.
	As I said, Sunstroke, you know, I read years ago and loved it.
	I just absolutely loved it.
	I don't know what it is about this kind of novel.
	If I were to ever write one, it would be of this genre, David.
	Terrific.
	What brought you Well, sir, a few years back in the late 1980s, I found out that the Energy Department and the Defense Department were going ahead with the development of the Solar Power Satellite Project.
	Now, this concept has been around for a while, but I was surprised and shocked to learn that they were going ahead with it.
	Now, how much of this is feasible?
	Let's start at the beginning.
	Let us say you put up a satellite.
	Yes.
	And it's got a gigantic collector on it.
	How much electricity could one reasonably hope to collect?
	Well, Mr. Bill, it all depends on the size of the silicon solar cell array.
	Right.
	Okay, so what this project is calling for is an enormous structure.
	This is the ultimate satellite that they are Considering, and going ahead with development now, it's going to be 3 miles wide, 6 miles long.
	Now, with a satellite having a solar cell array of that size, we're talking about 5,000 megawatts, 5 gigawatts, which is the equivalent to the output of 5 nuclear power plants.
	So this is the electrical output?
	Wow!
	That's a lot more than I thought they could get.
	Boy, I'll say it is.
	I'll say it is.
	This is what we're talking about now.
	The electrical output is directly proportional to the size of the solar cell array.
	So we'll have something like 5,000 megawatts.
	That's going to be the output for this satellite that is under development now.
	That's just incredible.
	Would this be Um, a geostationary satellite.
	Exactly.
	The reason, of course, as you well know, since you make use of communication satellites in the geostationary orbit... We're making use of several right now.
	Okay.
	You well understand, and for your listeners, I'll just elaborate a little bit more, is that, as you have mentioned over the air, The satellite in geosynchronous orbit will be exposed to basically perpetual sunlight on a 24-hour basis.
	And by the way, we ought to start by adding that another great science fiction writer, Arthur C. Clarke, prophesied the existence of what is now known as the Clarke Belt, which is a certain distance from Earth.
	And when you get out at a certain distance, the satellite, with respect to Earth, is traveling At exactly the same relative speed.
	That's right.
	It stays over one spot on Earth.
	Yes, it's in a fixed orbit.
	And yes, in that orbit it's exposed to perpetual sunlight, which means... Now I'm stopping you again, just before we get to that.
	The satellites that we're utilizing right now to get the signal everywhere, do not automatically, once you put them there, Stay exactly where they are.
	They stay within what is called a box.
	A little, uh, area.
	That's correct.
	And they're maintained in that area by firing, uh, little, um... Nitrogen gas, uh, propelled thrusters.
	Exactly.
	And they just sort of nudge them a little here and there and keep them within that box.
	That's right.
	And there's a constant monitoring process to keep them in that box.
	That's why we can point our dishes in one place.
	And there they are.
	Always.
	Yes.
	Yes, that's exactly the way it is.
	Okay.
	I will add, incidentally, at this time, that the solar-powered satellite, once it is deployed in orbit, will also have to be maintained within its own box, with the thrusters being fired from time to time, all under computer control, to keep it in a fixed orbit on a 24-hour basis, 365 days a year.
	And up there, the solar cells will be converting this sunlight, which is falling constantly on the gigantic array Directly into DC electricity.
	Now, these are conventional solar cells that we're talking about that the Energy Department, NASA, and the Defense Department will be installing on the solar cell array for the Solar Power Satellite.
	The reason is because they've been tested for many years.
	They're silicon cells.
	They're cheap, efficient, and reliable.
	And they will be converting sunlight up there directly to direct current electricity.
	Now, here's where it gets very interesting.
	The DC current will then be funneled into the satellite's microwave transmitter.
	Now, this is a structure that will be approximately the area of a football field.
	And inside it will be approximately 157,000 klystron tubes.
	Yes, that's right.
	Klystron's the same type of tubes that are used in conventional radar.
	And they will be converting directly this DC electricity into microwave energy.
	May I ask a question at this point?
	Sure.
	How much of a loss is there in that process?
	When you convert DC electricity gathered by the sun Into microwave energy, how much of a loss is there?
	Unfortunately, with the silicon cells that they will be making use of, they're talking about a 53.7% inefficiency rate, so that will be lost.
	However, because of the immense size of the array, the output of the satellite will still be tremendous.
	So, we convert the energy into microwave energy.
	Yes.
	Very much like the microwave energy comes from a microwave oven that cooks food, right?
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	Only, in this case, it'll be like a billion times more intense.
	Uh-huh.
	A billion times.
	Yes, sir.
	Up in space, it will be well over a billion times more intense than the interior of a microwave oven set on high.
	So the idea then is to beam that electricity in a microwave form or a beam down to Earth and receive it.
	Exactly.
	The microwave transmission beam from the satellite will be directed at what's called a rectenna and that's just a short term for receiving antenna.
	Now the antenna, the rectenna we're talking about that will receive the microwave beam from space We'll be on the order of approximately 8 by 10 miles in diameter.
	We're talking about a fairly large structure.
	And when the microwave beam hits, strikes the rectenna, the billions and billions of dipoles that would be built into the rectenna will instantly Convert the microwave beam back into useful, direct current electricity that'll be funneled directly into the utility power grid.
	And I assume there's a loss also associated with a reconversion.
	Unfortunately, there is.
	However, this time it's not as severe as in space solar cell conversion.
	We're just talking about a 17% loss in this case.
	Okay.
	Still in all, with the amount of power you're talking about, that is one whale of a microwave beam.
	Yes, you better believe it.
	Now, just very briefly, I will explain intensities here.
	The solar power satellite will generate a microwave beam at a power level of about 60 kilowatts per square meter.
	Now that's at an altitude of about 30,000 to 40,000 feet.
	We're talking about 60 kilowatts per square meter.
	Now is it any wonder that according to the Environmental Protection Agency, according to one of their studies that they ran on this project, on the impact, the terrestrial impact of the microwave beam of this intensity, they did stay quite flatly.
	I have the document right before me at this instant.
	That an aircraft passing through the beam at a height of 30 to 40,000 foot altitude, passing through 60 kilowatts per square meter, would cause the passengers aboard to be flash roasted alive, like a dinner popped in your microwave.
	This is stated by the government themselves.
	Oh, just like a dinner in a microwave, that's good.
	Then I would presume this would be obviously very restricted Precisely.
	It will be patrolled.
	There will be warnings given out by the FAA on an hourly basis.
	Let's just talk a moment, though.
	What's going to happen on the ground near the Rectenna?
	Now, we said at 30,000 to 40,000 foot altitude, we've got 60 kilowatts per square meter.
	At the ground level, at the focal point of the Rectenna, we've got 23 kilowatts per square meter.
	Wow.
	Now that's 23,000 watts per slightly larger than a square yard.
	Now this intensity is hot enough to bring one acre foot of water.
	That's one acre which is flooded with 12 inches of water.
	That's hot enough to bring an acre foot to boil.
	Oh my gosh.
	These are the intensities we're talking about.
	It's frightening.
	I Well it's a double-edged sword.
	when i actually got a uh... hold up the original uh... fifteen hundred page
	proposal for this project it horrified me i read this and i think my god i've got
	get this to the public well it's a double-edged sword it is energy
	that doesn't exactly pollutes uh... in the or or requires to store high-level
	nuclear That's absolutely correct.
	So, you know, there is a good side to this, but I have a million questions.
	For example, what effect Now, it will burn through, microwave its way through all levels of the atmosphere, from space right on down to the very bottom to Earth.
	That's correct.
	What effect will it have on the ionosphere, on the various levels of atmosphere, the weather?
	Lots of questions.
	We will go into this, I'll take it one point at a time.
	I'm very, very glad you asked this question.
	We will take it at one layer of the atmosphere at a time.
	Let's start with the ionosphere way up there.
	We're talking about the ionosphere extends, as you know, to well over 10,000 miles above the Earth.
	This is how radio stations bounce their signals at night.
	We bounce it off the ionosphere and back down to Earth, and that's how you can hear them long distances at night.
	Right, and you're going to be in big-time trouble.
	Yes, because it's been established by the EPA, by their own studies, that the terrestrial radio television communications within a 3,000 square mile radius of the REC Tennis site will be affected.
	They'll be impacted, perhaps severely.
	Stations will go off the air.
	What?
	And the way to get around that, according to their proposal, is a system of time schedules be arranged where stations will be allotted a certain amount of time in that radius to broadcast the rest of the time, which will be most of the 24-hour period.
	No broadcast will be possible.
	Now, this is pretty severe for... Oh, they can't do that!
	Well, sir, this is government.
	This is federal government, and as you well know, the Federal Communications Commission is part of our government, and they are the folks that are responsible for these restrictions.
	And, of course, they're going to be playing ball with the project.
	I'll tell you right now, people at NAB are not going to like this one bit.
	Absolutely not.
	They're going to be very upset.
	A lot of folks will be upset.
	I will be upset if I cannot hear you.
	I will be upset if you cannot hear me.
	I have no idea that it would have this effect.
	It is something that is being kept under wraps.
	It's a negative effect.
	Listen, David, we're at a break point.
	I've already heard enough to depress me AM radio down the tube zone.
	You've got to be kidding!
	You've really got to be kidding!
	But I have a feeling he is not.
	His name is David Kagan.
	He wrote Sunstroke.
	I guess you better enjoy AM radio while you can.
	You're listening to ArcBell Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	This is a test.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	Hey there.
	Try and imagine the output available from five nuclear power-generating plants coming from space, a satellite to Earth, on a beam of microwave.
	Science fiction?
	In the book, Sunstroke.
	Science fact?
	Yep.
	In the planning stages now.
	We'll talk to David Kagan more about it in a moment.
	fascinating dot now to
	Hi, David.
	Yes, Mr. Barrow.
	Okay, so...
	Yes, we're talking about heating up the ionosphere, and what will happen specifically, this is a little on the technical side, but it's right up your alley here, is that these microwave heating effects of the ionosphere will result in losses, fading, and scintillation of all telecommunications electromagnetic signals.
	You mean like ham radio operators and broadcasters, and how dare they do this?
	That's exactly what it is, and it's very, very distressing to people when they find this out, which is being kept under wraps.
	It is something, of course, that the government does not want to publicize.
	I can well imagine it's distressing the hell out of me right now.
	The sunspot cycle right now is miserable enough for ham operators, and to heat the ionosphere and foul it up They better not.
	I'm in total agreement with you there.
	It may, however, be something we'll have to live with.
	But let's follow this highly intense microwave beam as it travels through the other regions of our atmosphere.
	We already see that the effects on the ionosphere will be severe.
	Now, what will happen when The microwave beam reaches the troposphere, which is where our weather originates.
	Right.
	Alright, so what's going to happen is that there will be a modification of cloud dynamics and precipitation within the troposphere.
	Now that might sound, on the minor side, until you think about it for a while, that a modification of cloud dynamics.
	What does that mean?
	Exactly.
	That our weather systems, which, as you know, they're formed in the troposphere as well as in the oceans, above the oceans, the water vapor there, creates a lot of our weather.
	But our weather ends up in the troposphere.
	That's where our clouds form that rain down on us.
	That's where the winds form, the jet streams within the troposphere.
	Oh, yes.
	And they're talking about heating it up.
	Great.
	Now, what that means precisely for us.
	For us mere mortals who live on the surface, as we can expect during the operation of a microwave-powered satellite from space, when that beam is in operation, and they're talking about a 24-hour basis, basically to be operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, there will be a buildup of heat in the localized region around the beam that will cause, according to my readings of the EPA studies, It will cause severe weather changes.
	As if we need anything more from what we've been experiencing.
	Alright, before we leave this aspect of it, David, there's a project going on up in, as you know, Alaska.
	I know you know, you must know about this project.
	Did you hear my interview about HAARP the other day?
	With Dr. Nick Bage, I certainly did.
	I certainly did.
	Alright, HAARP is sort of doing The reverse of what would be done in sunstroke.
	The effect would be the same, I presume, on the various levels of atmosphere.
	Yes.
	They're going to try to heat the ionosphere.
	Yes.
	Now, are they doing that in part to test what will occur should we go ahead with The satellite operation.
	I would say, Mr. Bell, there's a strong possibility this is the case in Alaska.
	I will tell you this.
	This is a certainty.
	This is a recorded fact.
	This can be checked.
	In 1983, that long ago, the Paris Arecibo, the Arecibo Radio Telescope Observatory in Arecibo, Puerto Rico, Which is the site of the largest radio telescope in the world.
	They made use of that optical, the instrument itself, to broadcast a high frequency, high
	intensity radio beam to the ionosphere to heat it in the first of a series of tests
	by the government to determine the aspects, the impact of a solar powered satellite microwave
	beam on the ionosphere.
	Now the Arecibo test was run at 1,100th the power of the most minimal setting power level
	of the solar powered satellite.
	However, it did impact the ionosphere to such an extent where yes, it did interfere with
	localized telecommunications broadcast.
	Now, what Dr. Baggage is talking about with the HAARP project, it is very similar to what was done in 1983 at Arecibo, Puerto Rico.
	And only I understand, because of the last few years, that the radio frequency technology has increased.
	It has been developed to a greater degree than it was in 1983 with the radio telescope there.
	And they may be achieving Okay, David, last night, I don't know if you got a chance to listen late in the show, we began early talking about the man at San Francisco General whose immune system has been destroyed.
	our satellite project okay david last night
	uh... i i don't know if you got a chance to listen uh...
	late in the show we began early talking about the man of san francisco
	general whose immune system
	yet has been destroyed it is being replaced with a bamboo
	uh... in objection of baboon uh... white uh... white cells that would uh... then grow
	into a baboon immune system for this human being
	Um, and baboons are, you know, immune to AIDS.
	Now, the scientists on ABC that were quoted on ABC last night began to say, after the fact, thank you very much, that, well, yes, This could be a slight wiper or, you know, there could be a danger that there would be something released to humanity that would affect all of humanity.
	And I kind of sat there saying, Hey, you know, somebody could have asked us before they went ahead with this.
	I mean, what if this should, uh, what if it does go wrong?
	Exactly.
	I agree with you a hundred percent.
	Nobody debated it.
	So same thing here with HAARP or with the solar powered satellite.
	Yes, they are just pressing with it, going ahead with it, and do you know why?
	Why?
	It's money.
	Money is involved.
	In the case of the Solar Power Satellite Project and HAARP, I really don't know what's involved as far as finances with HAARP, but in the Solar Power Satellite Project event, we're talking about billions of dollars, and who is receiving these billions of dollars from the federal government?
	Of course, the contractors.
	It's money.
	The defense industry lobby, the U.S.
	Defense Department is in on the SPS Solar Satellite Project, and it's money.
	Money makes the world go round.
	Money is what's responsible, partly, for the pressing of these projects on us, on the public, whether we want them or not, because these decisions, let's face it, they're made on higher levels than we're living on.
	Great sums of money are involved.
	Great power is involved.
	And, well, sure, we have elected officials.
	We go and we vote these officials in, but they're under terrific pressure themselves.
	You know, you really can't blame them too much until the next election, and if you're upset with these decisions, vote them out.
	Okay, but what we're talking about here is something that may easily affect all of mankind.
	In other words, either... That's right.
	Broadcasting, long-distance broadcasting, ham radio broadcasting, commercial broadcasting disappears in effect, or worse yet, the weather changes and we've already got a lot of suspicious activity going on with the weather right now.
	We certainly do.
	So for all I know, they're out there tampering, flipping Harp on and off now.
	Could very well be.
	We do not know until we can Eventually, I imagine, we may have access to the HAARP files, these solar power satellite files.
	Eventually.
	Maybe.
	In 50 years from now.
	But, in the meantime, we will have to put up with these projects, as far as I can see, for the time being.
	They are set.
	They are in progress.
	They are funded.
	They are going through.
	All we can do is try to learn as much as we can about them in order to protect ourselves and our families in the event of a malfunction.
	All right.
	Back now to the subject of your novel, Sunstroke.
	Now, if this satellite was put up in place, or when it is, as we all know, nothing ever goes wrong with satellites.
	That's not exactly the case.
	I know, right?
	As a matter of fact, I think it was a Chinese satellite that plowed into the ocean the other day.
	Yes, unfortunately.
	It's another one of their, either the Russian's ancient airing satellites or the Chinese.
	Ours very seldom, but once in a while, boy, we get a doozy.
	What one has to visualize is this intense microwave beam coming down to Earth, one that would fry people like a microwave oven if they threw Well, let's assume they've got a nice fence up and guards.
	Or if they were inadvertently drove onto the rectenna site or walked onto the rectenna site.
	Well, let's assume they've got a nice fence up and guards.
	Yes, that will be the case.
	Yes, of course.
	The problem is, should the satellite lose its thruster capability or they would lose control of the output of the
	microwave?
	Exactly.
	And the satellite began to wander a little bit.
	Right.
	Let's talk about this for a few minutes here.
	This is a subject that's very dear to me, one that I did investigate thoroughly for Sunstroke, the book, and one, a subject which the proposal By the Defense Department and the Energy Department and NASA has not answered to my satisfaction.
	Let's talk about just how safe a solar-powered satellite would be in orbit above us.
	Even if you didn't cook the ionosphere, ruin broadcasting, or change the weather, and it worked, how else might it be dangerous?
	Well, the Energy Department claims That the Solar Power Satellite has an inherently fail-safe system that, in an emergency, will automatically defocus the microwave power beam to a harmless level.
	And they call it a fail-safe system.
	Now, I know for a fact that you've seen the classic movie called Fail-Safe.
	Of course, many times.
	You've read the book by Eugene Burdick.
	And you'll understand why I shudder whenever I hear the term fail-safe.
	It usually means just the opposite.
	Very briefly, let's look at the satellite's fail-safe system.
	I'll be a little technical.
	I hope your listeners can bear with me.
	I will explain it in as simple terms as I can.
	The Energy Department says that each of these 157,000 klystron tubes within the satellite's microwave transmitter space, these klystron tubes will be phased Or, that means properly adjusted to provide a uniform power beam and to enable the beam to be aimed, to be directed at that rectenna.
	Now, they claim that each klystron, each individual klystron tube will be automatically adjusted to a high frequency pilot signal which will be continuously broadcast to the satellite By a ground-based radio transmitter installed in the rectenna, the receiving antenna on the ground.
	Now, they say if the satellite begins to wander for some reason, the thrusters don't work, they say if this occurs, this pilot signal will be lost, and the Klystrones will... Automatically shut down.
	Right, to a harmless power level.
	Now, sure, I'm sure that'll happen.
	The Solar Power Satellite is just too huge, too complex for the so-called fail-safe system to work.
	Now, what if an object in space, say a large meteoroid or a man-made object, collides with the Solar Power Satellite, causes it to drift, while at the same time knocks the fail-safe devices out of whack?
	Then what?
	Well, I can assure you people will die That's what will happen.
	And the land and water, the oceans, they'll all be devastated by intense heat.
	This is in some stroke.
	This is the crux of the book.
	This breakdown of the so-called fail-safe system occurs in some stroke.
	And this is what makes the book a thriller.
	This is what causes people to die in the book again and again.
	When the solar power satellite goes out of control, Yes sir.
	and aim microwave beam down at the earth at random
	people of course aircraft that will be get caught in this being from time to time
	and of course everybody aboard these craft horribly
	shirley some stroke here cooks you a lot about yes sir
	they are out people be roasted to death just like a dimension earlier a
	at the end of the cop in the microwave oven on high
	this may be utterly and totally unrelated but let me try it out on you
	We have a real phenomenon going on all over the world, this thing called crop circles.
	Yes, it is something.
	And despite the fact that Doug and Dave admitted having a chain and a board and faking some of them in England, they're occurring all over the world.
	And the analysis done on the wheat in these crop circles, shows that there is a molecular change that can only be duplicated in the laboratory by microwaving.
	You can actually take wheat, break it off, microwave it, put it in a microwave oven, cook it, and you get similar molecular changes as what they find in these crop circles.
	Now, Now, that leads to an obvious question about somebody with some sort of satellite up there.
	Yes, I'm so glad you brought this subject up, Mr. Bell.
	If you remember, of course, some stroke the novel, the first chapter begins with a crop field that is devastated by the microwave beam.
	And, yes, I do firmly believe that The tests of a solar power satellite concept that have been going on these last few years by the United States, by Japan, by Russia, by France in space, orbital tests, may very well be responsible for these crop circles that they have.
	These crop circles have mysteriously appeared and are in great profusion just during this last decade.
	Without ever anybody being caught out there making them.
	And besides, a board and a chain do not create the molecular changes That microwave do.
	That's right.
	So it occurred to me that gee whiz folks, maybe they're up there with satellites.
	The only thing is, everybody's gotta know, the even well-intended satellite energy system would not be the only obvious use for the ability to cook the ground, or water, or people, or anything below it.
	Obviously, It could be a weapon.
	Yes.
	And this is a subject that is very unpleasant, but one which I have found out to be true.
	And that for the past 11 years, the United States has been testing point-to-point microwave transmitters in space aboard the space shuttle.
	We have?
	Yes, sir.
	A limited space-to-ground test was conducted in April 1993, January 1994, and just last May.
	These tests involved a small, very small, solar-powered satellite, codenamed Spartan, which weighs 2,800 pounds.
	It's about the size of a very large air conditioner unit.
	Now, these tests are classified.
	You're kidding!
	This has been going on And the, uh, as I say, the, uh, the satellite, this small test satellite, codenamed Spartan, and the, uh, the current plans that are going now on the drawing boards at the Defense Department call for the construction of a large solar-powered satellite, which will be built alongside the new space station, which is about to get underway.
	This is how it will be done.
	The space station will be built.
	In orbit, on time, it will be ready and online in the year 2002.
	It will be done.
	At that time, components for a large solar-powered satellite will be hoisted into low orbit, constructed by astronauts, and lofted into a higher orbit for some very serious space-to-Earth tests.
	Now, by a large satellite, what I mean 10 megawatts of microwave energy will be produced by this satellite, which is enough to power about 10,000 homes on Earth.
	This is the power outage that they're talking about.
	And, as I did mention, tests of this system, various pieces, various portions, have been going on for 11 years.
	For instance, the April 93 test of the Spartan, It involved not only the Spartan satellite, which generated the microwave beam in space, but it involved a 30-centimeter diameter target satellite, which was attached to the Spartan by a tether.
	Now, this target satellite acted as a rectenna in space, and it did supply a certain amount of electricity directly to the space shuttle.
	I did hear something.
	David, we're at the top of the hour.
	We've got a break.
	Hold on just a moment.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Author of Sunstroke, my guest is David Kagan.
	Is it science fiction, or is it real?
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 15, 1995.
	The Coast to Coast AM concert.
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired December 15th, 1995.
	My guest is David Kagan, author of Sunstroke.
	What is Sunstroke?
	It's a novel.
	Science fiction.
	I'm sorry to say, based on science reality.
	The proposed alternative energy idea prepared by NASA and the Department of Energy One, they are planning, apparently, to deploy this giant collector of energy in space that would be miles in size, collect energy directly from the Sun 24 hours a day, converting it to microwave energy and beaming it back to Earth.
	Now, sounds like a good idea, the output of five nuclear generators, till you begin to pick it apart a little bit.
	And of course, NASA and everybody saying nothing can go wrong.
	Nothing can go wrong.
	David Kagan has been in the aerospace industry now for years and years.
	We'll get to his qualifications again next hour, but he's well qualified to be speaking on the subject he's speaking to us about.
	And we're touching on HAARP.
	we're touching on a lot art what happens to an airplane that goes off course and
	flies into this beam Of course, we covered that in the last hour.
	Instant incineration.
	And what about birds?
	Also, if the direction of the beam is accidentally shifted to Pahrump, Nevada, you won't need to worry about amplitude modulation reception.
	This is not funny, Art.
	And then Art sent me a second fax and said, hey, you stole my questions.
	Well, Art, I just now got your fax.
	It's not here.
	It's in the other room.
	So I did not steal your questions, Art.
	They are the obvious.
	The one you do have, though, is about birds.
	And while you might restrict airspace, certainly, for airplanes to ensure passengers are not cooked like a TV dinner flying through this proposed beam, what about birds?
	David, wouldn't they sort of get fried?
	Yes, Mr. Bell.
	Unfortunately, very unfortunately, I might add, we can probably expect to be losing many dozens of species of different birds that are inadvertently caught in the microwave beam from space.
	This is most unfortunate.
	It will occur.
	It did happen in the Sunscrope novel.
	Seagulls got caught.
	Yes.
	We're roasted to death instantly.
	Most unfortunate, it will happen.
	All right.
	This device has far too much potential as a weapon to be overlooked by the military.
	Welcome to the age of directed energy weapons.
	What would be the effect?
	Should this be actually aimed, focused at a city or accuracy permitting a tank or an infantryman or a whole field of them?
	All right.
	This brings us to the topic, the next topic for our discussion tonight.
	Yes, we're going to talk about the Solar Power Satellite as a weapon system.
	And of course, our U.S.
	Defense Department has seriously considered the weapons potential of the Solar Power Satellite system.
	How could they not?
	Of course.
	It's the most obvious aspect of the entire system after energy generation.
	Now, let's recall what we've got.
	Ultimately, we will be building an enormous powerhouse satellite, three miles wide, six miles long.
	Let's take a look at what this structure in space can do to terrestrial population centers on Earth.
	Now, we know that the ground level The microwave power intensity will be 23 kilowatts per square meter.
	23,000 watts per square meter.
	Holy mackerel.
	We know it's enough to bring one acre foot of water to a boil in seconds.
	Now, of course... Human beings are mostly water, right?
	Yes, exactly.
	We are 97% water.
	And this microwave intensity is capable of inducing fatal heating of human tissue within moments.
	Bleeding, of course, to death.
	Now, this most horrifying aspect of the project, of course, has been described in U.S.
	Defense Department documents.
	The first symptom that a microwave victim will experience under this intensity is a bizarre clicking in the head.
	This is caused by Rapid expansion of brain tissues.
	The water is being evaporated out at a fantastically rapid rate.
	You're cooking.
	Exactly.
	I once, I used to do, David, I did microwave work for a lot of years.
	And I used to spend a lot of time on towers.
	Oh boy.
	And I can recall being about at the 130 foot level of a tower once, strapped in and doing some work on an antenna.
	And there I was working away, working away, and all of a sudden I noticed my leg was getting hot.
	It was getting warm.
	And I looked down, and I was standing right in, actually the lower part of my body was right in front of a microwave dish.
	And so obviously I had begun to cook.
	Yes, unfortunately, Mr. Bell.
	That's the state of affairs.
	And so that's the same process that would occur, except this would be coming from above, in far greater amounts, and you say the first thing you would feel is a clicking in your head.
	You would be hearing this strange clicking.
	It would increase in intensity to become a rapid beating in your head leading to what's basically according
	to these findings.
	Now I certainly hope human test subjects were not used.
	However, the clicking would lead to an intense pounding in the head
	which would be something like an intense sinus headache or a migraine and then you would
	this would lead to eye cataracts almost instantaneously.
	You would be blinded by these microwaves flooding space and then there you would experience extremely quickly a rapid heating of the vital organs of your body.
	What kind of timeline are we talking about here?
	I mean how many minutes?
	We're talking about hours.
	This would occur within basically a 30 second period.
	Oh.
	This quick.
	Oh.
	This rapidly.
	So yes The microwave beam from space could be used as a devastating terrestrial weapon.
	If you can picture this, the microwave beam diameter at the Earth's surface would be approximately 8 miles in diameter, the diameter of the rectenna, as a matter of fact.
	This is no mere coincidence.
	If you can picture the satellite microwave beam scraping a city Eight miles in diameter this beam would be traveling, affecting a region that size.
	People caught in the beam would experience the symptoms I just described within 30 seconds.
	They would die.
	And, naturally, this would be an extremely efficient weapon against population centers.
	Boy, it sure would.
	Right, but that's just one aspect Of the Solar Power Satellite as a weapon.
	Would it cook buildings?
	Well, no, sir.
	The Solar Power Satellite as a weapon would be far more effective than the so-called Neutron Bomb, which is the cleanest of all the bombs.
	And it was touted as, you know, a terrific, efficient atomic bomb because it did not destroy buildings, it killed people.
	However, it rendered the buildings uninhabitable for decades because of the radiation levels
	involved.
	So this wouldn't do that? This would cook all biological matter
	and anything with moisture in it would cook right out?
	Exactly. The buildings would be safe and intact.
	The buildings would not be ionized because we are not talking about ionizing
	radiation.
	Right.
	As opposed to all nuclear weapons.
	They are all ionizing radiation.
	We're talking about just pure electromagnetic radiation.
	High intensity radio frequencies.
	Just souped up versions of what you use to broadcast.
	It's the same exact principle.
	Alright, so that people understand how serious this is.
	Your novel, and it is a science fiction novel based on a real project.
	That's right.
	Apparently, They tried to stop you from publishing.
	Dr. Peter Glazer, is it?
	Yes.
	The man who developed the satellite project?
	Exactly.
	How did he try to stop you?
	Well, I will tell you that just prior to Sunstroke's publication date for the first edition, which was February 1993, just Two weeks before the official publication date, the senior editor of the Putnam Berkeley Group, Mr. John Talbot, who incidentally is the man who edited Sunstroke.
	Sunstroke is his baby.
	He called me that day to say that Dr. Peter Glazer, who is the man who first proposed the Solar Power Satellite project, and The company he's affiliated with, which is the Arthur D. Little Company, a Cambridge think tank.
	Now, Senior Editor John Talbot called me to say that Dr. Glazer and Arthur D. Little have contacted Berkeley, my publisher, directly, and that they're trying to suppress the publication of the book, of Sunstroke.
	Now, Dr. Glazer and Arthur D. Little's Attorneys threatened lawsuits against the Putnam Berkeley Group and myself.
	Really?
	Yes, that is an established fact.
	However, our attorneys correctly determined through the legal process that the Solar Power Satellite Project is public domain.
	So Dr. Glazer and Arthur D. Little were forced to back off because it's true.
	It is public domain.
	Well, I'm sure their concern was monetary loss.
	In other words, if the public realizes what could happen with this, and they get wind of it, and they decide they don't want it and put on pressure, funding might dry up.
	Who knows what could happen?
	That's precisely the case.
	Money, vast quantities of money, in fact billions, are involved here.
	There is great pressure put against my publisher, the Berkeley Publishing Group and myself.
	We persevered, and I'm happy to say that the power of the free press prevailed.
	We won.
	We won a hard-fought battle.
	We were sweating.
	We wanted that book out.
	Berkeley was behind me 100%, and we had to fight tooth and nail against the forces of Dr. Glazer and Arthur D. Little.
	Probably.
	It's like an iceberg.
	They were just at the tip of it.
	Who knows what lay behind beneath them.
	All right.
	Your book is about to become a movie, isn't it?
	That's right.
	I'm very happy to say, very, very happy that the Sunstroke Ocean Picture Rights were sold over the summer.
	And there's a story behind this.
	I'd like to elaborate on it just for a few moments.
	Sure.
	At one of my book signings last year, it took place at a Scribner's bookstore in Scottsdale, Arizona.
	It was there that I met a gentleman named Martin Wiley, who was very interested in the book.
	He came up, waited in line very patiently.
	This man is very intense.
	Very intense look to his eyes.
	He was very interested in the book.
	He asked me specific questions about the project, the True Life Solar Power Satellite project.
	He asked me specific questions about the publishing history of the book.
	At that time, it had gone through three editions already.
	He was very interested in that.
	This is something that most folks at my book signings just don't mention.
	He was interested.
	His name was Martin Wiley.
	I signed the book to him.
	Now, as it happened to be, He is the executive producer of Under Siege 2 Dark Territory starring Steven Seagal, one of my favorite motion pictures.
	I loved it.
	I saw the premiere of it here in Phoenix last summer.
	It's a terrific film.
	Martin Wiley loved Sunstroke and he contacted my agent, Nancy Love, in New York.
	So he was shopping you.
	He was coming down and he wanted to talk to you about a movie.
	He was in town, from what he told me, he was in town to meet with the director of the Arizona Film Commission to help out with some shootings, some local shootings for Under Siege 2.
	And he stopped by the store, it was nearby, it was convenient, and he saw the book signing going on, thought he'd better check it out.
	He really loved the book and got a hold of my agent last summer.
	He wanted to buy the motion picture rights.
	Since then, I have written a scene-by-scene breakdown of Sunstroke for a film for him.
	This is called The Treatment for a Screenplay.
	It's a scene-by-scene breakdown according to the book and within the somewhat limited framework Of even a major Hollywood production.
	It's a realistic, practical telling of Sunstroke to the film medium.
	Sunstroke envisions an accident where the satellite begins to go wild and begins to go across the land.
	But wouldn't another scenario be the military use of the technology?
	Yes.
	Make a great novel.
	Yes.
	It would be.
	Sunstroke does touch on that.
	The movie will touch on it a little bit more.
	There's a character in the book.
	His name is General Dean Stratton.
	In the book, he is the general who makes the decision in the Defense Department to utilize the Solar Power Satellite as a weapon.
	He will be featured in the film, as will the head of the Aerospace Corporation, North Space Industries.
	The man's name is Everett Knorr in the book.
	He is based, of course, on someone whom you do know, and you have had his son guest on your show numerous times.
	I'm talking about Bill Lear.
	Oh, yes.
	Everett Knorr, the character in the book, was based on Bill Lear.
	I'm a big fan of Mr. Lear and his accomplishments.
	I think he's a great character.
	I had to bring him to life in the book, but in order to protect the innocent, I changed his name to Everett Knorr.
	I see.
	Here's a fact in Art S. David.
	What a microwave beam like that would do to a nuclear warhead or missile flying through it?
	I'm glad that person asked that question because this is another important aspect of the Solar Powered Satellite as a weapon.
	Let's talk about the missile carrier.
	It would completely neutralize all electrical systems on board the missile, render it useless.
	It would prevent The uranium sources from coming into contact in the warhead itself.
	Oh my!
	Because they are not spring actuated, no sir.
	They are electrically actuated.
	So yes, it would completely neutralize a missile.
	This scenario will appear in the motion picture.
	Well, and that's part of Star Wars.
	Yes, it can be considered along the lines of Star Wars.
	However, it goes far beyond the simple primitive Star Wars concept in that One satellite can completely wipe out an enemy nation's communications facilities.
	Might I ask this?
	Could a single satellite of the type we're talking about be a true dual-purpose or even tri-purpose satellite?
	In other words, provide energy when needed and then be focused as a weapon should it be needed and Um, perhaps be used as part of a Star Wars strategy if it is needed.
	Yes, the answer to that question, of course, is yes.
	The solar-powered satellite can fulfill all of those functions.
	Oh my.
	Simultaneously, to a certain extent.
	If we consider the power being from space would be supplying the U.S.
	energy grid with electricity.
	And yes, in the event that, say, for instance, a third world dictator, another one, emerges And causes a global hot spot?
	Well, the solar power satellite can either be georbited... Could make it even hotter, quickly.
	Listen, we've got to break here at the bottom of the hour, David.
	We'll be right back to you.
	David Kagan is my guest.
	Stay right where you are.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	Coast to Coast is a music production from the 19th century.
	The band was formed in the early 19th century.
	The band is based in the city of San Francisco, California.
	The band is the first of the band's five-piece band.
	It was founded on December 15th, 1951.
	The band is a musical collaboration of the band's four members.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	Okay, here I am once again.
	A solar-powered satellite actually being planned for eventual deployment with our shuttle.
	Something that would collect energy, beam it back to Earth in the form of microwaves to be collected by resonant antennas on the ground.
	And they say nothing can go wrong.
	And I'm sure they say it wouldn't be a weapon, but How many of us believe that?
	Hold up your hands out there.
	we'll get back to david kagan and his books on stroke and we're going to go
	beyond here in a few moments and then yes we'll get the lines open
	all right uh... david are you there Yes, Mr. Bell, I'm right here.
	Okay.
	Art, your guest presents a contradictory premise.
	If the sunlight is geostationary over a receiving site on the ground, It cannot be in sunlight 24 hours a day, because the Earth and the receiving site turn.
	Please explain.
	Very briefly, a satellite in geosynchronous orbit, whether it's a gigantic solar power satellite, or whether it's an RCA ComSat communication satellite, when it's in geosynchronous fixed orbit, it's exposed to sunlight.
	24 hours a day, there's no question about it, for the simple fact that these satellites are located above the equator of South America.
	It's true.
	In that region, which we're talking about, which is 22,300 miles above that area, they are exposed to sunlight 24 hours a day, regardless Of ground conditions, whether it's night or day on Earth, makes no difference.
	These satellites are constantly exposed to sunlight, as you mentioned at the beginning of the program.
	It's because such a satellite in geostationary orbit, the speed, its velocity in space precisely
	matches the orbital speed of the Earth, which is at that altitude, 3580 miles an hour.
	Let's try this one out.
	Why do we need to go to space to harness electricity?
	Can that not be done here on Earth?
	As you know, they're experimenting with cold fusion.
	All these other processes, zero-point energy they talk about.
	And fusion.
	And fusion, right, right.
	Exactly.
	These terrestrial-based methods of generating power that you just mentioned are experimental.
	They break even point, for instance, for the fusion experiments going on currently in the United States and in Russia.
	Has not been achieved yet.
	They've come really close.
	In other words, they've come really close to matching the amount of energy that's put into the project, that's put into these devices, these reactors, but not quite.
	They have not really generated yet energy You hear a lot about it, but I have yet to see an actual demonstration.
	We'll get a lot of argument about that, Nicole, about Mr. Newman and a lot of people.
	Right.
	Let's talk real briefly about ground-based solar collectors.
	These are terrific.
	We live in the Great Southwest.
	We live in a wonderful desert region of the U.S., which is exposed to, I believe, we have far more Days of sunlight than anywhere else in the country.
	We're proud of it here in Arizona.
	I tell you, I love the sun.
	Well, same here.
	I've got solar panels on my roof.
	Great.
	That's terrific.
	And we've got a solar hot water heater, and it's powered by the rays of the sun.
	But at night, the water goes cold because no sunlight will reach That's right.
	These blackened panels, no sunlight will reach your solar cells.
	Right.
	The best I can do is charge a battery.
	Right.
	So the solar powered satellite being exposed perpetually to 24 hours a day where there's sunlight, you know, right then and there we see, yeah, it's real practical to have something exposed all the time to sunlight.
	There is no night in that area of space that we're talking about, geosync orbit.
	There are no clouds.
	Occasionally, for instance, today it got cloudy here in Phoenix.
	And not much sun came down.
	It was cold.
	All of a sudden we went from very warm temperatures, which are abnormally warm I might add, to cool winter weather.
	So these are the reasons why it's far more productive, as you've said, in space to locate a solar collector.
	There's no comparison between ground-based... Would we see anything, if you were near this beam, Or observing it, would you actually see anything, or would it be to the eye invisible?
	I'm glad you asked that question, Mr. Bell, because, as I mentioned earlier in the show, the Solar Power Satellite microwave beam is basically just radar, only it's souped up, far more intense than normal radar.
	Now, I've had the exceptional experience of being at Luke Air Force Base, which is located just about 20 miles from here in Tolson, Arizona, And Luke maintains an array of ground-based radar units, of course.
	This is a major Air Force base.
	Sure.
	And now I've been there at night on an inspection tour of their T-38s, their trainer jets.
	I've been called in to do some troubleshooting, do some ultrasonic testing.
	And during the nighttime hours, I've been fortunate enough to observe their large, very large array of radar units.
	And at night, the elements glow. They glow an ionized, gaseous blue color
	because the air around them is ionized.
	Is ionized, yes.
	Right. Now at night, in regards to the receiving antenna, the rectenna for a solar-powered
	satellite, if you are observing the rectenna area at night, you will see a considerable
	bluish glow as the air molecules become ionized.
	That would make sense.
	That would make sense, but there would not in the actual beam itself.
	The beam will be invisible.
	Just as ordinary radio or television transmission beams are invisible.
	Alright, but what about clouds?
	Now, clouds are moisture-laden.
	Yes, they are.
	Right?
	So, on a cloudy day, this beam coming down through the clouds would do what?
	The beam will dissipate the molecules of the clouds, and that gets back to what we were talking about earlier about cloud dynamics, modifying cloud dynamics.
	It will dissipate the cloud.
	The intensity we're talking about will dissipate the water molecules within the cloud.
	And, however, you will see In the daylight hours, if it is an overcast day, you will see a break-up of the clouds by the microwave beam.
	Now, this is an established fact.
	This did occur just during that Arecibo radio telescope facility test, ionospheric test that was conducted in 1983, and it probably occurred in Alaska with the HAARP project.
	Well, the HAARP project, which there were ground-based observers that were able to report the fact to the press, it would have been observed.
	Now, as far as we know, microwaves are invisible.
	You look at your oven, you turn it on, you don't see anything in there.
	But, what will be visible in regards to the Solar Power Satellite will be the structure itself in space.
	These specular reflections, these are the incident sunlight reflections that will occur just from sunlight reflecting off the enormous solar cell arrays.
	It will be to such an extent that each one of these ultimate sized satellites will produce the equivalent in light output to a quarter moon.
	Oh, you're kidding!
	It'll be as bright as a quarter moon?
	This is established.
	This is all in the documents that are available in certain quarters.
	This has been written up.
	Something that bright will interfere with optical astronomy.
	This has been written up.
	Oh, I'm sure it would, yes, certainly, of course.
	The astronomers and such got all upset about this incident, specular sunlight reflection.
	Now, do you remember, circa 1959 to 1961, the echo balloons that were inflated in space?
	I do, yes.
	Okay, did you see them?
	Did you see how bright they were when they passed overhead?
	Okay.
	A solar-powered satellite will be many, many times brighter than an echo balloon.
	For the simple fact that it's a much larger echo balloon, the final size that they did inflate was 100 feet in diameter.
	That's enormous.
	That was a sensational feat.
	Imagine something just like that, at the flick of a button, expanding to 100 feet.
	It was sent up on a small scout rocket to an altitude of approximately 100 miles above the Earth.
	Very small package inflated to a hundred feet.
	That's sensational.
	This would be miles and miles.
	Yes, we're talking about three miles wide by six miles long.
	Yes, you will be able to see the Solar Power Satellite project up there.
	It will be reflecting the sunlight at night.
	During the daytime it will be as just visible, is approximately 12 times the magnitude of
	the planet Venus.
	Now I personally have seen Venus, the planet Venus, low on the horizon, at 4pm, 4pm, 4 o'clock
	in the afternoon, in bright sunlight, if you know where to look.
	Now this thing will be 12 times brighter than Venus during the day.
	You will be able to see it even during the day.
	During the day?
	Really?
	Yes, that's an established fact.
	Many experiments have been done to substantiate this.
	The EPA is very interested in all aspects of terrestrial impact.
	And this is one of them.
	What are the psychological effects of seeing a structure in space during daylight hours, and at night the thing will be as bright as a quarter moon?
	Tonight is the last quarter phase of the moon.
	So if it's clear, you could go outside right now, look at the moon, and imagine it would be that bright.
	Precisely.
	It will cast a shadow.
	It will interfere with optical astronomy.
	Professor Fred Hoyle, he is the plumeum professor at Cambridge University in England.
	He has written about this subject.
	He is against the satellite project.
	Because it will interfere with optical astronomy.
	And this is a bugaboo.
	As Professor Roy explained it, there's only about 63 days, 63 nights during the year that astronomers are able to make decent observations of the skies because of the atmospheric disturbances going on, because of clouds, because of the moon itself.
	Now, the satellite is going to cut down on those days.
	It's going to be bad for optical astronomy.
	Sure, we've got the Hubble Space Telescope up there, but even it may be impacted by a solar-powered satellite in orbit.
	Indeed.
	Just an idle curiosity question.
	If you had a fully operating satellite system, and you were to direct its energy at something like a hurricane, Yes.
	What would be the likely result?
	From my readings, from my studying of the EPA solar power satellite terrestrial impact, there is a possibility that the microwave beam intensity at full power could possibly break up a hurricane to a certain extent.
	However, the opposite is also possible, isn't it?
	In other words, a hurricane Yes, there is a disagreement on meteorologists as to the exact precise effect of a microwave power beam on hurricanes.
	On the one hand, it could break up the water molecules Making up the cloud systems.
	On the other hand, as you say, these hurricanes do feed on terrestrial heat.
	Now, the... If it actually were to reach the water below it, it would in fact boil the water.
	Yes, and produce far more heat.
	What blows me away, David, is that we are proceeding with these projects, whether it's this, or whether it's somebody's immune system, and we do it Without asking.
	I mean, the people don't debate these things.
	They just, you know, on high, decide to do them.
	That's exactly the state of affairs.
	It's unfortunate, as we said earlier, but what are we going to do about it?
	As I did mention, the best thing is for us to arm ourselves with information, with raw data on these projects.
	Find out what they are, what's going on at this time with these State-of-the-art and cutting-edge projects that are sometimes beyond our capability to control.
	These projects, these biological experiments, the HAARP project and the Solar Power Satellite project, they are basically beyond our control at this time.
	They are going on regardless of whether we want them or not.
	Our only recourse is during elections.
	To our elected representatives, if they don't play ball with us, if they don't want to tell us about it, well then, out they go.
	That's what we're basically limited to.
	All right, let's talk for a second about your second book, your next book, actually.
	Doomwatch, it's called, right?
	That's correct.
	What is Doomwatch about?
	Doomwatch very basically recounts a five-day crisis that begins when a top-secret government experiment Conducted at a restricted Air Force Base, in this case it's Edwards, near Boron, California, it goes awry.
	Now let's just talk very briefly about what this experiment is that goes awry.
	Alright.
	As you're well aware of, atmospheric scientists at UCLA and UC Irvine, they're exploring the idea and proposing a strategy to the government at this time of injecting into the stratosphere Two exotic gases.
	These are chemicals based on the propane, ethane, and pentane molecules.
	And they're proposing that these exotic gases be released into the atmosphere to combine with the chlorofluorocarbons, which the CFCs, everybody knows, is stripping away the ozone.
	Yes, these exotic gases would combine with the CFCs to produce Supposedly, according to their studies, an extremely weak and environmentally safe solution of hydrochloric acid that would destroy the CFCs up there.
	And strengthen the ozone.
	Yes.
	According to their theory, once the CFCs are destroyed, are removed from the upper stratosphere where the ozone molecules are, where the CFCs are attacking them, once the CFCs are destroyed or brought down to earth in the form of Hydrochloric acid then the ozone molecules be free to reproduce themselves very simply up there and this would boost our ozone layer.
	Now this is what they propose.
	Now this project is very controversial.
	This is not just science fiction.
	This is absolute reality.
	See, that's why I like your kind of... The kind of science fiction I like is based on science reality.
	Or, you know, it's just a step or two ahead.
	And that's what you seem to write about.
	Now, I've heard about the project to try and restore the ozone layer.
	They were going to send up jets or airplanes or something.
	These exotic gases by KC-135 tanker jets.
	Exactly.
	They're planning on launching at least a hundred of them all at once over a test area where the ozone has been depleted.
	Now, Doomwatch, which is based on this project, the area that they choose to release the gases is near Edwards Air Force Base, which is by Boron, California, where there is, unfortunately, a deterioration of the ozone layer above that region.
	In the book, they release the jets over that area.
	Now, in reality, this project is very controversial because other researchers have calculated that there's a chance, a good one, that the release of these exotic gases could actually backfire and accelerate ozone depletion.
	This is what happens in Doomwatch.
	In Doomwatch, The KC-135 tanker jets are launched, aloft, they release, discharge the exotic gases into the atmosphere of a boron California near Edwards.
	Everything seems to go pretty well for a few minutes, but then an uncontrollable chain reaction occurs that produces a lethal acid rain.
	The first victims in the book are an old man, three one-way children.
	They are caught in the lethal acid rain.
	They die very quickly.
	However, the crisis escalates to nightmarish proportions when this chain reaction spreads and begins boiling away the rest of the ozone above the United States during a period of violent activity on the sun.
	Now, as you know, as all of your listeners know, The ozone layer above us protects us from deadly ultraviolet and other radiations from the sun.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	We'll pick it up and go to the phones in this next hour.
	My guest is David Kagan.
	He wrote Sunstroke.
	It'll be a movie shortly.
	His next book is Doomwatch.
	And we'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM concert.
	The concert was held on December 15th, 1995 at the San Francisco International Music Center.
	you You're listening to ArcBell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	My guest is David Kagan.
	He's written one of my favorite science fiction books of all time.
	It's called Sunstroke.
	He's got another book coming out shortly called Do Much.
	Both of them, worrisomely, based on real projects, planned now, Under way.
	One has a kind of inverse relationship to the HAARP project in Alaska.
	It would collect from the Sun, in space, from geosynchronous orbit, a platform of solar collectors, literally miles in size, and then translate that energy into microwave and beam it back to Earth.
	We've been discussing the implications of this The output of that, by the way, would be equivalent to about five nuclear generating plants.
	So that gives you an idea of the size of the project.
	It would burn its way through various layers of atmosphere with some kind of disconcerting results.
	Ruining AM radio, shortwave.
	It would be light.
	It would disturb the astronomers and the possibilities for a weapons systems For the military, it would be absolutely irresistible.
	This would be a beam weapon, literally cooking anything below it, as you would cook a piece of meat in a microwave oven.
	Just one more item, so that you know who you're talking to.
	David Kagan has headed the SpectroScan Corporation, a consulting firm specializing in metallurgical testing analysis of ferrous and non-ferrous alloys.
	...and composite materials.
	He is a graduate of Northrop University with a Bachelor of Science degree in Metallurgical Engineering.
	Has been under contract with the Quality Control Research and Development Department at Northrop.
	You know Northrop.
	The California-based manufacturer of the stealth P-2 bomber and the MX missile.
	Has participated in the non-destructive testing programs For the F-5E and YF-17 jet fighter interceptor projects at Edwards, 75 miles north of Los Angeles, has served as consultant for the Materials Research Group at Rockwell International Space Division in Downey, California, and so forth.
	So, I wanted you to know who you're talking to.
	It is indeed a science fiction novel, Sunstroke.
	However, definitely one of my personal favorites, and it's worth a serious discussion here, unfortunately, because they actually are planning to do it.
	So, in a moment, we'll take care of a little bit of business.
	back to david kagan and we will begin to take your call back to david uh... david kagan uh...
	David, where is it you're located?
	Down in Arizona somewhere?
	Yes, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona.
	Phoenix.
	In the Great Southwest.
	Yes, oh, the Great Southwest.
	Oh, I love it, love it.
	So do I, and you're right, we've got plenty of sun here.
	We sure do.
	Ann in Gig Harbor, Washington, says following New York, with this and so many other scientific projects now being undertaken both secretly and simply quietly out of the public scrutiny, It appears that nobody could put our situation more accurately and succinctly than God did.
	He said, remember, he said, quote, gee, I'm quoting God, quote, your wise men will become fools, end quote.
	Very appropriate.
	I thought so too.
	Dear Art, please ask David, what would happen if the microwave happened to hit either a civilian nuclear power plant If the beam would hit a power plant, probably that would not be good, huh?
	No, that would not be good, because primarily we're talking about microwaves interfering at a nuclear power plant with all electrical systems within the plant itself.
	Now, that takes into account Their water cooling system for the reactor core itself.
	Now, as you well know, and you've talked about it on your show numerous times regarding to... It would boil that away, wouldn't it?
	Yes.
	It would completely boil the cooling water away, and that would allow the chain reaction within the nuclear core to go critical.
	I've got you.
	Alright, here's another really good one, too.
	Simple question.
	Anybody that's ever put metal in their microwave oven has found out real quickly how long it takes to burn out a klystron tube and overload the power transformer.
	Can a large focused beam reflect enough energy back at the source to destroy the satellite?
	In other words, presumably you could create, or could you not, an SWR standing wave so high that the tubes would self-destruct Yes, that is a good possibility.
	And that the, in reference to the solar power satellite itself, that yes, the microwave intensity at such an extent, it is so All right.
	Let us take, David, a couple of calls.
	Let's see what we've got waiting out there for us.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	All right.
	I think you just almost answered my question, David.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Ocean View, Hawaii.
	Oh, okay.
	What is your question?
	Or what was it?
	If something is so obviously big, why couldn't it be shot down?
	And the follow-up question would be, would such solar satellite have any offensive capabilities?
	Could it be shot down?
	I would presume the answer to that one would be yes.
	It could probably be shot down, couldn't it, David?
	Absolutely.
	Mr. Bill, it's one of the problems with this project as viewed by the Defense Department, and this is why they wish to keep the project basically under wraps as best as they can to a certain extent, is because, yes, it would be a target.
	And even though the satellite that we're talking about is so large that, yes, A sat, an anti-satellite device, could be deployed by an enemy nation against the satellite.
	And yes, it could cause it to go awry.
	It could cause the satellite to be, how should we say, compromised.
	David, the sound you heard, you heard a little clicking sound there.
	That was a disconnect sound.
	So, I'm well familiar with them.
	It's happened to me before.
	Should we get disconnected, hang up and I will call you back immediately.
	The phone company has been mistreating me terribly lately, and that sound is a precursor to trouble.
	All right, I should be warned.
	Yeah, you should be warned.
	That's right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	Been great to hear this show, I'll tell you that.
	Well, I'm glad you've enjoyed it.
	Where are you?
	Out of St.
	Louis.
	St.
	Louis.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, you did get a little bit of one of my questions answered, too, because I was wondering if you had some sort of a steered feedback to overload the system.
	Of course, I do believe you have a possibility of defeating it temporarily with something like a chaff field like we used against the Germans, and maybe, you know, some sort of reflector to help shield you if you're beneath it.
	But I was thinking with something as powerful as this, you could defocus it as much as maybe even a hundred times and still have enough radiation there to be fatal to people on the ground.
	In other words, you could probably cover better than 250 miles square, you know, like something the size of Kansas, maybe.
	And another thing I was thinking, that the way he was talking, maybe we ought to have a 30,000 foot tall antenna because we'd more than double our efficiency.
	It's an interesting point.
	It's an interesting point.
	Thank you.
	David, how well are they going to be able to focus this beam on the ground?
	And is he correct when he suggests that the higher the antenna, the less the loss?
	To a certain extent in regards to the second question, the higher the antenna, the less the loss.
	However, what we're talking about initially is the solar satellite being used to generate electricity.
	Now, in our scenario, and in the Defense Department's scenario, that yes, the solar satellite would be used most of the time to generate efficient electricity from space.
	Right.
	That, in order, that depends, however, the efficiency.
	Let's talk about that.
	That is totally dependent on the rectenna, the receiving antenna, being located as close to the ground as possible to uh... you counteract any of the uh... the inefficient uh...
	feedback and a lot of current that would occur should be written to be higher up
	at the ground policy that this is the problem
	and in regards to using a chaffee field uh... against the germans now
	the colliery is correct in uh...
	the proper analysis that the solar
	power satellites microwave beam is that such a great intensity yet the interview
	hit beneath such a field such a reflector
	the microwave from the team
	would impinge on each other contingent all reflected and eventually would
	would reach unfortunately uh... so so even if you were shielded in other words
	directly above you uh... there would be reflections that would be occurring
	from every angle that's correct
	Absolutely correct.
	There's no way of escaping it, basically.
	Sure, if you see, Mr. Bell, if you see a bright, unblinking, fixed light in the night sky above you, just be advised, seek shelter in a basement or cellar.
	Stay there until further notice.
	Maybe, maybe, you will survive.
	Are you referring to if this satellite were to be orbiting?
	That's correct.
	You know, for all we know, they have some.
	What do we have up there now?
	Do you have any access to information that says... I mean, I have firm suspicions, David, that there are satellites in orbit carrying things that we don't even want to know about.
	That's right.
	We don't want to know about, and we can't know about, except to a certain extent, I do have some contacts in aerospace.
	I do know what's going on at this time.
	And yes, there are a number A number of blacked out military payloads that have been locked into orbit over these many years that the space shuttle has been in operation since 1981.
	That absolutely makes sense, David.
	I don't know how many times I've heard this is a secret mission deploying a secret satellite.
	Usually they will say for intelligence gathering purposes.
	Exactly.
	But who knows?
	Now, may I make one mention?
	At this time, there is a new kind, you might say perverted, space race that's going on at this very moment now.
	The United States, as you know, Russia, Japan and France are all racing each other at this time to be the first to deploy a solar power satellite in space for obvious reasons.
	Now, Japan... Now, when you say solar power, let's not confuse things.
	You mean a satellite Designed to collect and transmit power back to Earth, not just a satellite that is solar powered, correct?
	That's right.
	And you're saying Japan is going after this, and France?
	I know this for a fact, sir.
	Yes, Japan has been testing point-to-point microwave transmitters in space for several years now, as reported by Professor Hiroshi Matsumoto of the Coyote University's Radio Atmospheric Science Center near Tokyo, Japan.
	These tests that they've been conducted will culminate in a very spectacular experiment next year
	in which a satellite will be deployed by the Japanese that will be capable of producing 18 megawatts of microwave
	energy.
	Now, that's 18,000 watts.
	Right.
	Which is a tremendous amount of power that will be generated in space and beamed to Earth for their own purposes.
	Now, there's a difference.
	I can see, for example, that they could transfer by microwave energy with very little loss in space, or from point to point in space.
	Yes.
	But when you're trying to blaze this thing through the atmosphere, Then all kinds of things come into play.
	That's correct.
	Atmospheric attenuation and loss of signal through something very simply called the inverse square law in physics.
	These all come to play to decrease the efficiency of a space-to-Earth transmission beam of microwaves.
	However, the only way to get around these natural barriers is what the U.S.
	is considering and will be building.
	An enormous version of this, these point-to-point microwave generation space.
	An enormous version, the one we're talking about tonight, three miles wide, six miles long.
	Okay, the only other law I know of that comes to play here is one that I've been familiar with ever since I began playing with electronics, and that was written by a guy named Murphy.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	Murphy's Law will always come into play.
	I love Murphy's Law.
	If anything can go wrong, it will.
	That's correct.
	That's what happens in Sunstroke.
	That's what happens in Doomwatch.
	It is the current state of affairs.
	We'll have to live with it.
	Maybe.
	Maybe.
	Maybe we won't be around to live with it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	Yeah.
	My name's Jim.
	I'm from Fayetteville, Arkansas.
	Fayetteville, Arkansas.
	Hi, Jim.
	You're going to have to speak up good and loud for us.
	Okay.
	There's something that I saw personally back in the mid-80s.
	I lived near an Air Force base.
	I don't know how you're going to comment on that.
	It doesn't sound like it applies to what you're talking about, does it, David?
	No, sir.
	Not a ball of light.
	I came down and landed somewhere in the town.
	I would like to have him comment on that.
	All right.
	You can comment on it if you want.
	I don't know how you're going to comment on that.
	It doesn't sound like it applies to what you're talking about, does it, David?
	No, sir.
	Not a ball of light.
	However, I will tell you something real interesting.
	My brother and I, we own some property near Daitlin, Arizona.
	We built a house there a while back and it's in the boondocks.
	It's near Dateland, Arizona, which is really, really in the middle of the desert, middle of nowhere.
	There are no power lines.
	There are no telephone poles in order to communicate.
	You have to go cellular, and even there, sometimes you're out of luck.
	Sure.
	Now, in this region, we spent some summers there, building a little summer vacation home there, and at night, at night, we did detect, and I tried photographing it, but it was a little too dim at the time.
	Right.
	There are what's called cosmic ray bursts.
	Now, they vary in intensity, and they have come What is a Cosmic Ray Burst?
	What is a Cosmic Ray Burst?
	There's a point of contention among NASA physicists, and however, they do agree that these cosmic
	ray bursts are caused by possibly flare stars, which are outside our solar system, stars
	that occasionally flare up from time to time and produce a great burst of light.
	...of ionizing radiation.
	But by the time it reaches our solar system, the Earth, and passes through the atmosphere, all the energy capability it has is ionizing the air molecules in the upper regions of the atmosphere.
	It causes sometimes a bright burst of light.
	I have seen this myself.
	I have brought it to the attention of Luke Air Force Base specialists.
	They have confirmed it, that yes, these occur from time to time.
	Usually visible on bright, starry nights in the southwest, you probably may see them yourself one of these nights.
	So these could be mistaken for UFOs?
	Certainly.
	Absolutely.
	And I'm sure a lot of the reports are exactly of that sort of thing.
	Sure.
	Besides atmospheric re-entries of satellites and certain Spacecraft components that do re-enter and disintegrate and produce great bright light.
	There are these cosmic ray bursts.
	They are apparently a natural source of radiation that impacts the Earth's atmosphere and produces these displays on occasion from time to time.
	You just have to be out there at the right time.
	However, I will say that NASA takes them seriously enough.
	They're considering deploying A series of approximately 23 ground-based arrays to detect this radiation.
	Some of them may very well be located near where you are, sir, in Pahrumpa, Nevada.
	Oh, that sounds great to hear.
	David, stand by.
	David Kagan, author of Sunstroke.
	And soon, Doomwatch is my guest, and he will return.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from december fifteenth
	nineteen ninety five and
	and and
	premier radio networks presents our goals somewhere in time Tonight's program originally aired December 15th, 1995.
	Haven't you ever wondered when the Defense Department announces the launching of a satellite?
	A classified mission.
	Haven't you ever wondered what it is?
	Haven't you ever wondered when the space shuttle missions, those controlled by the military for deployment again, of satellites That do classified jobs.
	Haven't you ever wondered what those jobs are?
	We're talking with David Kagan.
	He wrote Sunstroke.
	About... About a real project, actually.
	Science fiction, yes.
	But based on a true-life $19.5 million alternative energy proposal, prepared by NASA and the Department of Energy.
	We'll be back to him in a moment.
	David, are you there?
	I certainly am.
	All right.
	Here comes some more questions from the audience.
	Great.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	Me?
	That's you.
	Oh, OK.
	Just great.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Socorro, New Mexico.
	Socorro.
	Oh, the famous alternate crash site.
	Yes.
	Well, that's right.
	However, that's not why I'm calling.
	That's quite all right.
	I'll save that for another night.
	I stayed up to call because I was involved in this project in the early 1980s.
	I work here at the radio observatory and in the early 1980s the project was given to us for us to determine what effect it might have on radio astronomy.
	We had several of our staff scientists work on it and we just came up with a bunch of bag of worms.
	I wasn't involved in the scientific end as much as I was preparing the report.
	But one of the biggest concerns that they came up with is that occasionally these satellites, of course, will fall in the Earth's shadow.
	And when they are re-illuminated by the sun, these klystrons, of course, will heat back up and the frequency stability will be terrible.
	So they'll be sweeping this energy over the entire spectrum.
	As well as the pointing will just randomly be searching around until the pilot frequency comes back up.
	So in a sense, the fiction that Mr. Kagan is writing about is actually reality of these things were ever employed.
	Because every time they cool down and then warm up as they go in and out of the Earth's shadow, they'll just randomly be squirting energy all over the place until they Until they find their dipole array again.
	Well, one would presume the pilot would, as the scientists say, be fail-safe.
	And would prevent it from fully turning on and focusing until everything was ready.
	But do we trust that that would occur?
	Thank you very much, Caller.
	I don't necessarily trust that that will occur.
	David, my complaint last night is like my complaint tonight.
	I wish that the American public could debate these things a little bit.
	These things that could conceivably affect all of mankind.
	Yes, ideally it would be best if we had a, for instance, a televised forum where representatives of the U.S.
	government would debate the merits of these black projects with the American public.
	But no, that's not the case, right now anyway, and we'll just have to put up and bear with
	these projects as they come.
	Wonderful.
	Just one other thing, Mr. Bell.
	In reference to the Arkansas collar, he mentioned about a ball of light.
	What springs to mind is ball lightning.
	There's also another possible explanation for his sighting.
	Sure.
	It could have been anything.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Excellent program tonight.
	Thank you.
	Where are you?
	Austin, Texas.
	Austin.
	All right.
	A couple of questions.
	First of all, I'm sure David is aware that these CFC gases, chloro-carbons, are actually much heavier than ambient atmospheric air.
	And that there is no CFC gases up at altitude.
	And in fact, if you take a can of Freon and put some in a balloon, tie the balloon, it will sink to the floor rather than rise as it would if it had helium in it.
	So my question has to do with them spraying those gases from the aircraft.
	Ostensibly, or the excuse that they're giving is to go up there and gobble up the CFCs, but there are no CFCs up there damaging the ozone.
	That, of course, is a great controversy, but... So what are they up to, is the first question.
	All right.
	Hold on.
	Stop there.
	David, do you agree with that premise regarding CFCs?
	Well, unfortunately, there's too much that's been documented on chlorofluorocarbon And their presence for these last 100 years, their presence up in the stratosphere, and their interaction with ozone molecules has been greatly documented by the government, by NASA, by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and by the European Ozone Stratospheric Experiment that was conducted two years ago.
	Caller, I do think he's correct about that.
	I believe they've done the measurements many times over now, so I too have always been in some doubt about CFCs and destruction of the ozone and all the rest of it, but it's pretty well documented.
	Yes, that is the course of affairs.
	There's too much written on the subject.
	There's been too many studies.
	There's been too many hundreds of billions of dollars spent.
	On studies by numerous governments across the country to dispute it at this time.
	All right, so let's leave that one alone.
	We'll have to agree to disagree.
	Your next question is?
	Yes, one of the stated purposes of HAARP, the project in Alaska, another black project the government has underway, is the actual altering of the ionosphere.
	They even admit that that is the purpose of it.
	Well, they say it's heating the ionosphere.
	Yes, turning it into a plasma.
	Which is essentially what this satellite would do as well, wouldn't it?
	That's correct.
	The intensity involved would cause the atmospheric gases to be ionized.
	That is, it would strip away electrons from the atoms themselves, composing our atmosphere, causing them to become charged and turn them into a hot gas, which is the classic definition of a plasma.
	Now, see, this is our Earth, too.
	Now, earlier in the program, you said one of the least effects would be it would ruin AM broadcasting at night.
	Yes.
	It would destroy, no doubt, most of the shortwave spectrum.
	Yes, and interfere also with television broadcast.
	Oh, with television, too!
	Yes.
	Yes, they're right there in the electromagnetic spectrum, and they would all be severely impacted.
	Well, then they'd have a revolution on their hands.
	Take away television.
	That'd be the end.
	Well, yes, that probably would be the case, except for one thing, is that, well, this is a project that will come about, and it's being funded.
	Let me ask you this.
	How close are they to actually beginning to put hardware together to do this, David?
	At this point in time, we're still talking about tests, both small scale leading up to large scale. Now the
	large scale test, as I mentioned about earlier in the program, will involve basically a
	solar power microwave satellite that can generate up to 10,000 kilowatts of power to a
	point on the earth, which is equivalent to, you know, a thousand homes.
	If I were a betting man, I would bet that HAARP would be a project to determine exactly
	what effects the heating of the ionosphere would have without having to go to space and
	fire something this direction.
	Instead, fire it from Earth into the ionosphere, having roughly the same effect on the ionosphere.
	And from that, they would then say, well, yeah, we go ahead or we don't go ahead with the reverse process.
	That's correct.
	As I mentioned earlier, I strongly believe That HAARP is based on the Arecibo Radio Telescope Observatory test that were conducted in 1983 at Arecibo, Puerto Rico.
	And when they did that, when they turned on the power there, what happened?
	The ionosphere was heated up to a great extent.
	It did not plasmify.
	It did not turn into hot ionized gas.
	The power levels were a little too low for that.
	However, they did determine that it did impact That it could be done.
	Harp is probably another version of that air-stable test, only more magnified, more powerful.
	Do you happen to know what the specific effect on the radio spectrum was?
	As far as I know, it caused a great damping of the signals, loss of the signals.
	Dampening, yeah.
	The signals were lost.
	They were unintelligible.
	It was basically, they were hashed up.
	Was it a process of absorption?
	Yes, absorption was part of the process.
	Also, scintillation was involved.
	Great time, big time scattering of radio waves.
	I do not object to scientific progress.
	Whether it's baboon white cells in a human, or it's satellites bringing power down from the sun.
	I mean, I'm I'm a progressive person, I even love everything connected about this kind of thing, but I just have this nagging, horrible feeling that they are totally oblivious to the fact that we all live on this planet, and one of these things, if not thought out, could cook our butts.
	That's right.
	That's the problem that we're talking about.
	Exactly.
	All right, let's go back to the phones.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Let me grab my radio here.
	Oh, grab that radio.
	Yes, sir.
	I just have a short comment for you.
	Sure, where are you?
	I'm in Wenatchee, Washington.
	All right.
	I don't know if you're familiar with the games in City 2000, but they have one of those power plants.
	They have a power plant with a microwave that juts down and one of the The disasters that can happen as it misfires and destroys your entire city.
	So I just wanted to make that quick comment.
	Great, thank you.
	Interesting piece of information.
	It's worked its way into entertainment.
	What's next?
	Well, it seems like anything that can be imagined is almost underway.
	And anything that can be imagined can be done.
	And you're only a jump or two ahead of the actual construction of the hardware to do what we're talking about tonight.
	That's right.
	So that's what I think people ought to bear in mind.
	They think it's far out.
	It's not that far out, and it's not that far away.
	Certainly not.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art, KUBC Los Angeles.
	Yes, sir.
	Mr. Kagan, in southwest Texas, there's an optical Phenomena they see, they call them Marfa Lights.
	They're slow moving lights they see in the horizon.
	Have you ever heard of that or have any idea what that might be?
	It's a possibility.
	It's what I said earlier.
	It could be cosmic ray phenomena that are impacting our atmosphere at this time.
	Or it could be ball lightning.
	Those are two possible explanations.
	The only thing that would argue against that is why in that specific area of Texas?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	There is a possibility that the atmosphere over that area is charged.
	Okay.
	Good answer.
	Could be.
	And it is conducting these bursts.
	It's conducting the electrical charges that are formed when the cosmic ray bursts hit the atmosphere and or it is actually inducing ball lightning phenomena.
	Thank you, sir.
	All right, thank you.
	My pleasure.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with David Kagan.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	I can barely hear you, sir.
	Pump up the volume.
	OK, well, I have to.
	You'll have to get into that phone and talk real loud.
	OK.
	This is Joe in Phoenix.
	Yes.
	I kind of had a question towards David there.
	I was kind of interested in the subject, and where could I get more information?
	I'm glad you asked that question, sir.
	I would greatly enjoy corresponding with all of your listeners out there, and I would like to provide them with a free, up-to-the-minute report on the Solar Power Satellite Project and on other government projects.
	Yes, I would greatly enjoy corresponding and sending real information to your listeners.
	Free of charge?
	Free of charge.
	Oh, you don't know what you're getting into, David.
	Oh, you don't know what you're getting into.
	All right, fine.
	Fine.
	When might we see Sunstroke, David, as a motion picture?
	How long?
	Approximately a year and a half.
	About a year and a half.
	Yes, we're in the developmental stage right now.
	As soon as everyone returns from holiday vacations, which will be the first part of this year, 1996, the coming year, January, I will be meeting with Mr. Martin Wiley, the executive producer, and a hotshot script writer he's bringing in.
	We will be hammering out the actual screenplay for the motion picture, and then production will begin.
	David, it has been a grand pleasure and honor to have you as a guest, and I now have two of your books and an honored signed book.
	I want to give you a quick chance, if they want a copy of your book, well, they can really get it in any bookstore.
	That's right.
	That's right, Mr. Belstow.
	Strokes available in every bookstore across the country.
	How many copies sold so far?
	As far as I know, it's been in the hundreds of thousands.
	I'm sure it has.
	And I was one of those.
	I really appreciate that.
	I had a very enjoyable and very informative time tonight.
	It was a great pleasure and an honor, and I'm very proud to be on your coast-to-coast show.
	I had a great time, and I learned an awful lot about talk radio and how important it is.
	Oh, it is.
	David, thank you.
	Thank you, Mr. Bell.
	And good night.
	That's David Kagan, and that was interesting.
	His book, Sunstroke, I read it years ago, and then suddenly I got a letter from him, and I went, phew!
	So, I thought we would do that this evening.
	Based on real technology that you just know they're messing around with up there now.
	You just know it.
	All right, we're going to break here at the top of the hour.
	The only other thing I would like to add is, along with all your other Christmas shopping ideas, I would like you to include, if you would, a copy of my book, which is now selling like crazy.
	We're probably two-thirds now of the way through the second printing.
	There may not even be a third.
	I'm not sure yet.
	It is not going to be in paperback.
	It is not going to be in bookstores.
	And it is going to be pretty rare.
	It's called The Art of Talk.
	It is a compilation of 11 years of behind-the-scenes talk radio and the most blatantly honest look at myself and my life and what I've done and what's happened behind the scenes that anybody has ever written.
	It has ticked off more people than I can count.
	If you would like a copy of it for Christmas, they can get it to you that quick.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 15, 1995.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AMX-3.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	Good morning, everybody.
	In a moment, we dive into two-way talk radio.
	I'll update the news quickly.
	We'll spend the next two hours intimately together.
	together the news
	there is not much happening in bosnia The word is go.
	The weather says oh no.
	Actually nothing has moved, landed in Tuzla for two days now.
	Forecast more of the same.
	There is a system keeping low clouds, fog, whatever you want to call it, down to ground level and no airplanes can even see the airport there.
	So The word is, what the military always has, hurry up and wait.
	All over Europe, men and equipment bottle up and wait.
	The alternatives, if this weather continues, are not good.
	Fly into Sarajevo, then drive 900 to 1000 miles into Tuzla.
	Not good.
	I'd rather wait for the weather.
	Brokaw, Tom, is also stuck at Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany.
	And, uh, he has been on the aircraft, going in, one of the first aircraft going into Tuzla.
	And, uh, he's not been able to get in either, so, uh, the nightly report is, uh, from, Mr. Brokaw is coming from, uh, Germany.
	The budget.
	Talks turned ugly, broke off, government begins partial shutdown, or did so at midnight tonight, today.
	It's not gonna be a big deal until Monday.
	Republicans accuse the President of using phony economic assumptions in his proposal.
	The President says the Republicans' budget is just all wrong.
	Anyway, they'll begin to lay off the non-essential, or is it non-emergency workers?
	I really like non-emergency myself.
	Because the clear implication is that when they get the budget straightened out and they bring the workers back, the emergency resumes.
	I can't get away from that.
	Anyway, if they get laid off, I think it's just going to be a big Christmas present for them.
	Because, as you recall, they get paid.
	Working or not, they get paid.
	Now, when you get laid off, how many of you get paid?
	I got laid off once from IT&T.
	And I recall very well, they didn't pay me.
	So a little extra Christmas time off with pay.
	Might not sound so bad to government workers, I am sure.
	Bad news on the drug war.
	Oh, this is really awful news.
	I mean, really awful.
	Try and imagine this.
	I think it's every three years we do a big survey.
	University of Michigan does it.
	And this is the third survey in a row.
	Smoking And drug use are way up among teenagers.
	Now when I say way up, listen to the numbers.
	1 in 3 high school seniors smoke cigarettes.
	It's up 20% since 1991.
	20% since 1991.
	650 8,000 8th graders smoke cigarettes, up 33% since 1991.
	50% or one of every two students, all students, now admit using illegal or illicit drugs of some sort
	before finishing high school.
	Now, that's the good news.
	Here comes the bad news.
	Marijuana use is up 58% since 1991.
	58% since 1991. Now I said 58% 544,000 8th graders admit to using marijuana now
	now.
	Since last surveyed, that is an increase of 158%.
	Holy mackerel!
	Now, in the 80s, we had a sharp decline in drug use among young people.
	It is now up.
	Not just marginally up, not just a little bit up, But it is up alarmingly.
	It is up at absolutely epidemic levels.
	Very perplexing indeed.
	Could it be related to the quickening or something like that?
	I don't know.
	But it is indeed quite perplexing.
	Whitewater.
	The nine o'clock in the morning deadline came and went and nobody from the White House turned over a blessed thing.
	So the Whitewater Committee quickly voted to fight, in other words, to fight the White House.
	The full Senate will likely follow in voting.
	And then we have big trouble.
	It'll go straight to the courts and we will have a constitutional crisis As we had during Watergate.
	So there you are.
	That's where Whitewater is, and surely it is going to the courts.
	Surely, as in Whitewater, it will be delayed until after the election, and then, I'm sure just like Whitewater, it will begin breaking day by day by day.
	My God, there's a lot of parallels.
	The Army investigating its ranks for Nazis, white supremacists, skinheads.
	They are finding connections between the Army and members of militia at Fort Carson, Colorado, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, Fort Benning, Georgia, Fort Devens, Massachusetts.
	That's kind of worrisome too, huh?
	And then there was yesterday's story that you may still wish to comment on, because it sure has not left me.
	It involves the poor 38-year-old man who received the baboon white cells.
	He's got AIDS, and he's dying, and it's awful.
	And so they destroyed, with radiation, his entire immune system, what was left of it.
	Gone now.
	And they injected him with White cells from a baboon.
	The hope is the baboon white cells will multiply and create, literally, a new immune system inside the human being, a baboon one, one that can fight and will fight AIDS.
	Now, he would remain HIV positive, just wouldn't get AIDS.
	Interesting, interesting media observation.
	During the program, yesterday morning, ABC News ran, and I confirmed, so that I'm not called crazy, by going to call after call after call after call, that there were a number of scientists, medical people, who said, this, yes, does represent a threat, or a possible threat, to all of mankind.
	Now, that definitely aired last night, I guarantee.
	But today, the only news about this man was that he is doing well, and his condition is reasonable, and they will not know for several months what is going to happen here.
	And that is the only news.
	Were there any scientists interviewed by anybody who said anything at all about what we heard last night?
	No.
	It's like the curtain came down on that part of the news.
	It is one of the most interesting aspects of the American media that I think I have observed in all my years and that is that somehow a piece of news can come out and even if it is absolutely true the next day it's gone just like that.
	Just like it evaporated into thin air.
	This from Rose in Mesa, Arizona Art, regarding baboon to human bone marrow transplant, yes Art, you're right about funny little feeling in the back of your head.
	I doubt if many animal rights groups will take this on since they tend to object to animals in research on moral and ethical grounds.
	Few have the guts to object on medical grounds.
	They said animal research hurts animals.
	Unfortunately, it also maims and kills humans in many instances.
	The Salk polio vaccine was derived from monkey kidney tissue.
	Later on, Sabin produced a live weakened polio vaccine also derived from monkey kidney tissue.
	It was an unfortunate choice since monkeys are known to harbor more than 60 viruses, some of them dangerous to humans.
	The SV40 virus from monkey kidney cells has been detected in patients who died of brain cancer.
	One of the herpes viruses is an inconvenience to monkeys
	but fatal to man. Some scientists fear that a virus originally found in monkey kidney tissue might be linked to
	multiple sclerosis.
	I won't bore you at this time with the lengthy list of medicines and procedures that have been
	discovered without animal research. Animal research retards
	true science by giving misleading results.
	So, thank you.
	So, there you are, and part of the story now, well, there were two things that bugged me.
	One, if there really was a risk to all of mankind, nobody bothered to ask us.
	Nobody allowed us to debate it.
	Perhaps they consider that we are not sufficiently well-informed to engage in a debate that nevertheless involves our possible future.
	That's point one that bothers me.
	The second point is that the story, as it broke yesterday morning, quickly sort of evaporated and became nothing more than a condition report on the man uh... during the main news uh... today only in america now i think we are ready let us begin open line talk radio anything that's on your mind is fair game east of the rockies you're on the air uh... this is the art bell for president campaign headquarters in oklahoma city
	Oh, no, you don't.
	No, if nominated, I refuse to run.
	Well, you know, another one said, if nominated, I won't run.
	If elected, I won't serve.
	That's right.
	My staff that we've put together for you, we realize that there is a possibility that you can save America from your talk show.
	I'm convinced that if America is spared from going down the drain like all other great nations, it'll be the conservative talk show host that saves this country.
	So keep up the good work.
	Thank you.
	There's a possibility that you might be able to do a better job as president.
	Well, no, then leave me alone.
	If you think I can do a good job from here, leave me alone.
	I like what I'm doing.
	I don't want to be a victim of the Peter Principle, which, as you know, Says people will eventually be elevated to a position for which they are not qualified.
	Well, nevertheless, we're evaluating, our staff is evaluating whether to try to get you the Republican nomination or run you as an Independent, and we'll let you know what our plans are.
	What did you think of my slogan for the campaign I sent you two or three weeks ago?
	I won't give you that last word, so don't bleep me, but it went, uh, it went, don't re-elect that... Oh, yeah, no, no, no, don't say it, I remember it, yes.
	Don't re-elect that bleep, vote for Art.
	Yes, that's right.
	Now, also, what did you think about the suggestion for the name for your baby girl?
	I thought it was great.
	Yeah.
	You know, I just thought Ramona might surprise you someday with a little baby girl.
	It would be a surprise, sir.
	And Clarice would love that.
	It would be a surprise, and you think I... I have no comment about that.
	Goodbye, sir, before you get me in any more trouble.
	Goodbye, there in Oklahoma City.
	Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, And I think you have a really great show on a very broad variety of subjects.
	It is that.
	And reasons why I called was a couple of nights ago you were talking about free energy.
	Oh yes.
	And there is a patent number that I'd like to give you.
	Because it doesn't exist in the patent office anymore.
	Well then, what does it mean?
	Well, the reason being is this is many of these projects that were done... I've got one too.
	It's 1346782J-11.
	That also does not exist.
	See, I just pulled a number out of the air, sir.
	to to and it was by at john w uh... elk
	easy k l i m in nineteen seventy five
	see i just pulled a number out of the air sir i mean what does it mean to have
	a patent number does not exist this patent was in actual fact granted
	and what did this machine do that this this is
	This is called a magnetic distribution generator.
	A magnetic distribution generator.
	Right.
	And actually I have a copy of the original patent.
	And we tried to find the original patent in the patent office.
	Have you made one of these machines?
	I'm in the process of making one.
	I see.
	And this machine no doubt generates free energy, right?
	When you get the machine done, will you call us?
	Yes, as a matter of fact, I've been trying to get a fax number.
	I'd like to fax you a copy of it.
	Oh, really?
	Yes.
	Alright, my fax number, are you prepared?
	Yes, sir.
	Area code 702-727-8499.
	No, no, no, no, no!
	Sorry.
	Numbers count.
	8-4-9-9.
	9-9.
	Yes.
	Okay, it'll be up to you in a shortly.
	Alright, I'll be looking forward to it.
	Thank you.
	Maybe I'll build one.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Ah, good evening, or rather good morning, Art.
	I've been trying all evening to get you.
	Well, you've got me.
	I've worked into the early morning hours.
	Where are you?
	Actually, I'm in Alberta.
	Alberta, Canada.
	Yeah, and I'm calling... I listen to KGA.
	In Spokane?
	Yeah.
	Sounds like you have a very hollow sound.
	Are you on a speakerphone?
	No.
	I've extended the second line away from my main line.
	Maybe it's weaker, is it?
	Well, no, it's quite strong.
	It just sounds like you're in a concert hall or something.
	No, I'm not singing tonight.
	I'm doing a lot of listening.
	I wanted to relate a little story.
	The interview you did with David Keegan was very interesting to me because of an incident that happened on November the 12th while I was visiting La Habra, California.
	I was watching a movie in the evening and it was interrupted.
	Rather unprofessionally, with a unedited news slip.
	And the news slip had to do with a announcer reporting an orbital laser firing over Santa Barbara, California, setting forest fires.
	And it had shown it was a high altitude Photography and it was on, it was not still, it was live action and it was a newscaster and it set about 12 or say 8 to 10 fires around Santa Barbara and I thought to well this is slipped out of place and they would rerun it
	At least at the proper interval when the commercials came on.
	And yet it was another one of those news stories that disappeared, right?
	It disappeared.
	It never came back on.
	And yet it occurred to me that the FBI had placed orbital lasers, or was proposing orbital lasers, And, uh, it's occurred to me that this was more like a test rather than a malfunction that he had reported.
	I've got you.
	All right.
	Well, let me tell you something about news coverage.
	Um, one thing that occurs and one way these stories occur, these wild stories, for example, there was a night when they reported an 8.5 earthquake.
	It was reported on Reuters, AP audio and wire service.
	It was reported on all kinds of mainstream press.
	Zillions of people called in and said they heard it.
	You know what?
	It was wrong.
	There was no 8.5 earthquake.
	There was an 8.0 the following week in the same area, coincidentally.
	But there was no 8.5 earthquake.
	They got it wrong.
	They just flat out got it wrong.
	And maybe through pack journalism, by following each other, I have no idea.
	But they had it wrong, and they reported it that way for the balance of the night.
	And then the next day, they just, when they figured out that it was wrong, they dropped it.
	You never heard another word about it.
	Well, that makes Art Bell, who notices things like 8.5 earthquakes, look like a fool.
	Because I began to discuss it.
	Well, the next day, there was no word about it.
	Not one word.
	We had previously recorded an 8.5 earthquake.
	Actually, it was 6.4 or whatever it was.
	And we had reported that in error.
	Did they say anything like that?
	No.
	They got it wrong, and when they realized they were wrong, they simply stopped reporting it.
	So, that accounts for some of the disappearing stories.
	Not all, but some.
	They know damn well they've got it wrong, but do they apologize?
	Do they run a retraction?
	Do they run a follow-up?
	No.
	They just simply stop reporting it.
	And you're left out there twisting slowly in the wind.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995.
	I just told my dad, God I love you.
	I'm gonna love you, you dreamers, keep coming.
	Keep coming.
	I'm gonna love you, you dreamers, keep coming.
	Keep coming.
	Tonight, tonight we're gonna make love.
	That's all I can say.
	You should see the facts I've got in my hand.
	It better be a lie.
	Come and show me some affection You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from December 15th, 1995
	Oh man, this better be a lie That's all I can say, you should see the facts I've got in
	my hand, it better be a lie But it looks like the real thing
	I guess I'm gonna have to find out I'm going to read you this fax.
	It's from Mike Miller, who says he's my KBC board op, down in Los Angeles.
	Reference, the KBCKMPC Christmas party.
	Now, he says, all the brass was here, great Hollywood party, blah, blah, blah.
	All the higher-ups in programming wished you were here.
	Stop.
	It's like a telegram, huh?
	Then he goes on to say, Shannon Dougherty was distraught over your absence.
	This had better not be true.
	this had better not be true if shannon dowdy was distraught at my not being there
	I am destroyed at not being there, so all I can say is this had better be some kind of board-op kind of joke.
	That would kill me.
	That would kill me.
	That would do me in.
	An opportunity to have gone, let's see, to a Hollywood party, mixed it up with the execs at KMPC and KBC, and, but more importantly, to have met Shannon Dowerty in person.
	I mean, a person could be suicidal over something like that.
	Art, the quickening, will continue to gather momentum as humankind continues to break the laws of nature.
	Humans are the only living things that allow their weak to survive.
	Boy, you know that's true.
	Human beings are the only things that allow their weak to survive.
	You can turn that around and suggest we are the only ones with the power and the intellect to decide to allow our weak to survive.
	The other point may be more powerful, but it's hard to contemplate.
	It's very interesting.
	That's from Paul listening to Cafe B in Omaha.
	But this first one, this key, I won't be able to take it.
	It's going to ruin the rest of my weekend if this is a true story.
	So, I intend, I have to find out, would the board op at KABC, if it is who I think it is, please call my network and leave a hot number, a hotline number, so I can call you up on the air and find out and and and grind you down and find out if this is really true this better not be true specially the part about shannon dowdy how could you send me something like this especially after the fact
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yeah, Howard.
	How are you doing this morning?
	Oh, well, I was all right until this arrived.
	Oh, that was kind of interesting.
	Anyway, this is Dave from Kansas City.
	I think you had the facts last night at the beginning of the show about the immunologist at our school of pharmacy?
	Yes.
	And yeah, he did state very specifically that there could be viral genetic mutations.
	And that was his main concern.
	Oh, mine too, after I heard it.
	And I would just like to be asked about this sort of thing.
	I have a feeling that between last night's program and this morning's program, David Kagan, that they are doing all kinds of things in the medical and scientific community that are beginning to border on earth-changing or Mankind changing slate wiping kind of events or possibilities without asking us whether or not we think it's a good idea.
	Tonight was another good example of that.
	For six months we debated this.
	Once a month we have what we call medical ethics.
	The nursing school, the school of medicine, everyone is available to come and ask questions.
	We have a guest speaker.
	We debated this for six months.
	The FDA approved this six months ago.
	But at that time we thought there is, and I don't know the probability, but there is a chance that there is a viral strain that could come from this that we don't know of yet to the general public.
	And that was the debate.
	Shouldn't the general public be in on this debate, not just the medical community?
	Apparently the answer was no.
	Yeah, because there was a lot of money involved.
	All right, sir.
	I've got to run.
	Thank you very much.
	You say that was a moral debate, huh?
	Well, you say that it was settled by the money argument?
	The moral debate was settled by the money argument?
	Should we inform the public of what we're about to do here, or the dangers of what we're about to do here?
	There's an awful lot going on they're not telling us about.
	I don't like it.
	Cold War is over.
	Sort of.
	And, um, we should try and figure out a way to get more honesty, more openness from government.
	Particularly when something is not absolutely locked up into national security.
	Alright?
	Medical experiments, um, The AIDS virus, and I'm all for fighting it, it's a horrible disease.
	Or energy, to replace the forms of energy we have now, which we've got to work on.
	All of these things, I am not against them, I simply want to be informed about them.
	Is that a reasonable position to take?
	I'm not against them necessarily, I simply want to understand them, and have a chance to consider it, and talk with all of you about it, And have it laid out in so that we understand.
	I mean, look, all of life is a risk.
	There are risks involved in many bold ventures.
	But we're not collectively that dumb.
	And I think we can know.
	Sounds like a plea, doesn't it?
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good morning, Art.
	Hello.
	Another fascinating show, I have to admit.
	Yes.
	And also, I appreciate your sarcasm.
	It's greatly needed at times during your show.
	As far as us being confronted or asked about anything, the last 40 years, when have we been asked about any major... Okay, but the last 40 years have been wrapped into the Cold War.
	Things are, after all, changing.
	I mean, we're staging what we're going to do in Bosnia from Hungary.
	Well, that's true.
	Think hard about that.
	Right, so things have changed.
	That's very true.
	The comment I wanted to make, have you seen the new trailers out for the movie Independence Day?
	That's going to be released?
	No.
	Fascinating.
	It's about an alien takeover of the entire world.
	I got a better one.
	What's that?
	There was a Showtime movie scheduled called Martial Law.
	Right.
	I heard you speak about it.
	They cancelled it for a later date?
	Yes, indeed they did.
	Well, they showed clips of it earlier this evening, and the spaceships are supposedly huge, and there's nine of them that hover over major populated cities throughout the world and take over.
	So it looks completely fascinating.
	Uh, I didn't get the release date on it, but, uh, looks like something we'll be interested in, uh, seeing here in the future.
	Motherships, I'm sure, right?
	I'm sure.
	Have a good evening.
	Yes, thank you very much.
	They're never fatherships.
	Never fatherships.
	Why not?
	Why always motherships, huh?
	Seems sexist to me.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air, top of the morning.
	Hey, Art.
	Hello.
	This is Tom in Eugene, Oregon.
	Hi, Tom.
	Yeah, I just kind of had a question I wanted you to ponder for a minute.
	Okay.
	Why do you have so many liberals that call your show?
	I mean, you've got Charlene San Diego, and then you've got The Socialist, Doc Democrat, and several others.
	I don't know.
	Uh, Magnetic Anomaly.
	What do I know?
	It's Open Line Talk Radio, sir.
	I don't control who calls the show.
	I just give out the numbers.
	I don't screen the calls.
	Your question, I have no answer for it.
	Whoever calls, calls.
	Are you a liberal?
	No.
	You're not?
	No.
	Are you a conservative?
	You're getting real warm.
	Warm?
	Yeah.
	I'm a libertarian.
	You're a libertarian.
	Well, why do I have so many libertarians that call?
	I have no answer for that.
	Well, I have no answer for your question.
	I don't know.
	Everybody calls.
	It's an open, it's unscreened, it's whatever it is.
	Any given night.
	Who knows?
	Okay.
	One last question.
	Yes.
	I'm probably one of three people in your audience who didn't see the alien autopsy.
	And what I was wondering was this.
	Yes?
	Somebody mentioned to me that in the showing of it, when they removed organs.
	Yes.
	That there wasn't really any of this snipping away of tissue.
	No, I would describe it more as, you know when you make, when you pop open a can of real thick soup?
	Yeah.
	And you cook it up right, it's real thick, and you kind of got to scoop it out with a spoon?
	It's like that.
	Well, wouldn't you think if you were dealing with a live body you would have Little chunks and, you know.
	Yeah, I mean tissue that you would have to cook.
	Meaty pieces and noodles.
	Yeah, but that's my point.
	Wouldn't you think if you were... I don't know, sir.
	Look, we're possibly dealing with a manufactured biological entity or an alien or something that is supposedly from someplace else.
	So, you know, if, let's say that the alien autopsy, and I've seen it, they'd open it up And there had been lungs and kidneys and livers, and then what would people have said?
	They'd have said, oh, come on!
	It's human!
	Can't you see the organs?
	Yeah, but I was... I mean, I didn't see it because I was more of a critic of it, because... Well, how can you be a good critic of it without seeing it?
	I guess you can't, but... Oh, that's an irretrievably good point.
	Take a look at it, borrow it from a friend, watch it, and then call back.
	Sorry for the soup analogy, I could not resist.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Yes, I have a request of all of the folks out there that consider themselves conservatives, would like a good opportunity to vote for a conservative for president next November, but are not registered in the Republican Party.
	Please register Republican.
	You can go back to whatever you're doing after the primaries in your state.
	But please, vote for a conservative in the primaries so we can get something besides a Bob Dole running against something like a Bill Clinton.
	At least give us a choice next November.
	But now's the time to act.
	It's not going to happen.
	Well, let's see what happens.
	We're not over the hood yet.
	Let me tell you the way it's going.
	I'll give you the truth, whether you want it or not.
	Look at Iowa, or New Hampshire, which is where the formation of our nominee is going to come.
	Originally, Bob Dole was in some trouble, even in Iowa.
	He has pulled his machine together.
	He has solidified at 40%.
	Buchanan's fallen way down into single digits.
	I would say that Mr. Graham's numbers have been cut about in half.
	Ditto what's going on in New Hampshire.
	Buchanan might be a little better, but not much better.
	I'm telling you, the nominee's going to be dull, and Clinton is going to beat him.
	How's that for depression?
	I really, really hope and pray that you are wrong.
	We've got a conservative jihad going here, and I don't want to see a sneak attack smashed.
	A conservative jihad.
	The person that we ought to be nominating to run against Clinton is Gingrich, but his numbers are low and so forth and so on.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	I understand how you feel.
	I share your feelings, but I'm pragmatic, maybe even manic-depressive about it.
	I clearly see what's going on.
	I'm pretty well connected politically to know how the machines are running, what the numbers are like, and I'm telling you what's going to happen.
	And I wish and I hope you can have, and I would not deny you that, but I don't share it with you.
	I'm sorry.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing okay.
	I heard some opinion about Bosnia.
	What's your opinion?
	Okay, now, in a sense, I really don't feel that we need to be in Bosnia.
	Well, we're going.
	Well, I know that they're held up because of the weather in Germany.
	Yeah, so it's too late.
	I mean, we're going.
	You know, I understand that.
	In a way, we do need to be there, but in a way, we really don't.
	I mean, that really has no concern of the United States.
	I mean, the United States, they go a lot into places they don't belong.
	In a way, it's good to be there, because this world should be all democratic.
	What?
	I mean, they eliminated communism.
	No, no, they haven't.
	No, in the Soviet Union so much.
	Now, they've got communism in China.
	Oh, they certainly do.
	I was there.
	I saw it.
	I know.
	It's definitely communist.
	Still Cuba, still North Korea.
	Well, that'll be till Vietnam.
	I mean, there's still communism.
	You know, I understand that.
	But I really don't feel that we should have our troops over there.
	I mean, I was in the Army for a long time.
	I was a staff sergeant.
	I saw a lot.
	I mean, I did a lot of tours all over.
	I've been to a lot of different countries.
	I was in a range of battalions for two years and about seven days.
	That was enough for me.
	But I really don't feel we need to be there.
	All right, sir.
	I've got that.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	I don't either.
	But it is now past that stage.
	And matter of fact, our forces are bottlenecking now in Germany.
	Hungary.
	Just waiting for the weather to clear.
	If it doesn't, then they're really gonna go through hell.
	And hell means landing in Sarajevo, and then trying to make it to Tuzla, and that area, by ground.
	About a thousand miles.
	Through snow, and slush, and freezing cold, and bad, bad idea.
	I vote for waiting for the weather to clear.
	I mean, the peace, after all.
	Uh, if it is a real piece, should hold, shouldn't it?
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Hey, this is Mike from the Cahow Control Room in Denver.
	Cahow?
	Oh, Mike, uh, you must be my board op there, huh?
	I am your board op here.
	Well, son of a gun.
	Uh, in Denver, Cahow, big station.
	Tell them what frequency you're on.
	News Talk 63 KHOW 630 on your AM dial.
	Probably about 5,000 watts, right?
	Yes, 5,000 watts exactly.
	That's a big signal on 630.
	On 630 it is.
	Well, glad to have you.
	Art, I've got a secret to let you in on.
	Really?
	I'm 20 years old.
	That means I've been getting up in the middle of the night and going to the bathroom for 18 years now.
	I have never once forgotten to look and make sure to put the toilet seat up before I went to the bathroom.
	Why it is that women can get up and forget to put the toilet seat down and fall in, I don't understand.
	I have never fallen in.
	Not once, but if you've actually been getting up totally every day for 18 years, you may have problems.
	Not every day.
	I'm just saying, I've never accidentally peed on the toilet seat and gone, whoops, the next morning when I woke up.
	And realize what happened.
	I've never ever forgotten to put the toilet seat up, you know?
	I just don't understand how they can do that.
	I have never fallen in.
	I would say that never.
	And I guess it can be done if you stagger in totally asleep.
	I can imagine it could occur.
	You'd have to be pretty asleep, I imagine.
	Well, a lot of times you are.
	I mean, have you not ever sort of been in bed, and it's like you're asleep, right?
	Yeah.
	But you know you need to make a trip, fairly urgently, and yet you're asleep, and you're asleep and you don't want to do it, and then finally you sort of do it, and I suppose it could occur that a person... Yeah, I've just never been that groggy myself.
	Definitely would wake you up.
	That would wake me up, by golly.
	Hey, am I close enough to the five o'clock hour to get the honors?
	Well, Alexi, you're in Denver, so it is almost five o'clock.
	You absolutely get the honors.
	So my board operator from Denver, KHAL Radio, gets the honors tonight.
	You know how to say it.
	Good night, America, from KHAL in Denver.
	Thank you, my friend.
	That will do it.
	We'll be here, Greenland, with Greenland on Sunday, at whatever time your local affiliates carries it.
	Then back with a regular syndicated show, Monday night,

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