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Dec. 10, 1995 - Art Bell

01:36:51

Dreamland with Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe - Ingo Swann - NASA Scientist & Energy - Dr. Brian O' Leary

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	Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
	not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
	And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe, but don't see.
	This is Dreamland.
	It absolutely is.
	Good evening, everybody.
	Another Sunday evening, another Dreamland underway.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I've got an interesting show planned for you this evening.
	Linda Howe, an investigative journalist, an Emmy Award winning investigative journalist.
	You've produced TV documentaries and sort of investigated her way into the world of crop circles and animal mutilations.
	I am, you know, it's kind of a, it's a funny thing.
	I got a fax tonight.
	Regarding the very person that she's going to be interviewing, Engel Swan.
	And I'll read the portion of that here in a moment.
	It is a small world.
	So, Linda's coming up from Philadelphia, followed by scientist-astronaut Brian O'Leary.
	He'll be here from Maui, Hawaii.
	And I have good, very fond memories of Maui, where I once lived.
	For about six months.
	And so, that's on tap for this evening.
	A couple of notes... Yes, the remote viewing is only 15% reliable.
	I see the only class media this past week.
	Nobody knows the real story of remote viewing.
	The media has no idea what remote viewing is.
	The American public certainly has no idea.
	And so they're all getting off on this, ha ha, look at the government, spending, wasting money on psychic research.
	Well, it wasn't psychic research.
	It was threat analysis.
	of this kind of stuff by the Soviet Union.
	And if it was imperative at the time that that threat analysis be undertaken,
	everybody approved it from Congress.
	Congress would be regulated to many years in the progress of our project and everything.
	But from your point of view, how strong and reliable was remote viewing during those Cold War years?
	We had to aim for 65 percent in order to be competitive with the other conventional forms of intelligence gathering,
	and we did achieve that.
	You would achieve 65% accuracy?
	Oh yes.
	Or we wouldn't have been in business.
	Yes, we had to become competitive or compatible at least with these other conventional forms of intelligence gathering or we wouldn't have had a penny more.
	And if you could be that reliable Then why would there be at this point in the fall of 1995 the kind of release from the Central Intelligence Agency that has just come out that questions this and says it's only 15% reliable?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I can't.
	Nobody understands the work of the CIA, do they?
	No.
	No, I don't think anybody does, and I think that the CIA might not understand their workings a lot of the time too.
	I don't know, but I was completely stunned when I We'll send a copy of that release.
	And I think every other person that was involved with the project, you know, there were easily over 500 to 1,000 people, but it totally flunked us, too.
	So, I don't know.
	I mean, I've never been able to answer all the questions, and I certainly can't answer that, but I think that's the real reason we're on the surface here one of these days.
	But in this case, Some of the documents from 72, 74, and 75 have been declassified.
	And these are some of the 8 Martini things that Norm person referred to on the Nightline program.
	Well, could you explain for our Greenland audience what the 8 Martini is?
	The 8 Martini, the 8 Martini remote viewing event is one that is so Really astonishingly good that it breaks everybody's reality and they have to go out and drink it much to remember it.
	That's what it means.
	Did you ever have an ATV remote viewing?
	Oh yes.
	Can you give that again?
	Every time I've seen it happen with me or with other people it's so amazing each time it happens you never get used to it you know and it just blows your mind and they're really good ones.
	Uh, just blow you away.
	What would be one of your best?
	Oh, one of the best ones was probably the one that happened, one of those that happened in 1973.
	I said to the project at SRI that we would offer remote viewing as a forecasting non-sponsor, you know.
	So they shipped out a coordinate and there was a big to-do about it.
	And it turned out to be, I thought the coordinate was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
	I said, there's only water here.
	And so Dr. Puthoff, who was working with me, said, well, I mean,
	He said, well, there must be something around here.
	Look around and see what you can see.
	Some fur in the haze behind this sort of land sticking out towards the dwelling.
	There's a seashore.
	You want to go over there?
	Okay.
	So it turned out that this was an island.
	And I said, well, I can call it an island, but that's not enough data to show that this is, you know, that's just an average guess that there would be an island here.
	So we decided that I should draw the contour of the island.
	And we didn't have paper big enough in this locked room we were in, so we had to put a lot of sheets together as I was tracing the shoreline of this island.
	And it's almost a perfect match for the island, which is Fort Rowland Island in the South Atlantic.
	And then I put some buildings on it and everything, and they had some outhouses, which were sort of orange tents, and there was bird doo-doo everywhere, you know, the birds were the numbers in line, and so on and so on, and I said, you know, there's some kind of research going on here.
	Well it turned out not only was the Contours really recognizable at Mount Island in all
	respects, but that it happened to be a joint Soviet-French research installation.
	And when the gossip got out that their secret remote, secret research station had been penetrated
	by a psychic, they protested.
	The French and the Swords protested to Washington, unofficially.
	Yeah.
	That got into the gossip lights, too, so we were blown away.
	Well, how did they protest in writing to the President?
	I don't know how they protested, but the local fish board was lining up and said, oh boy, what a fish you've made here.
	But you were that accurate.
	Well, I mean, you know, if you look at it, you can say 65% very easily.
	And more, actually.
	And this is before our project got classified, even.
	That's been published in the public domain.
	So that was the first one that really blew us away.
	Not only because of the remote viewing and the quality of it, but because of the repercussions and the impact it caused.
	Because you were that accurate that two foreign nations would actually respond to Washington.
	That was a spontaneous thing.
	You can call that spontaneous R.V.
	It was definitely 65% or more efficient.
	And do you know what the result was?
	What?
	We got offered more money.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	That's the bottom line.
	Right.
	And it kept going on like that for at least 20 years.
	And it kept going on like that for...
	Well, for 18 years that I know of, actually.
	Well, isn't there a point where you were remote viewing at least one Soviet submarine and saw something that was like a disc behind it?
	Yes.
	That was so top secret that one.
	And as Howard Gump put it in his book out there.
	Right.
	That's how he got a hold of it.
	It just blew me away because I know what the tickets were on that one, you know.
	Yeah.
	Well, did you personally, I mean, can you feel it this day it was a UFO behind a submarine?
	Well, if you read Howard Blum's book, you'll see the whole thing.
	He got it all right, except that the table was rounded, not square.
	And there was all sorts of grass sitting there, and put-off was on my left, and this Treasury Stark General was on my right, and I was hunching away.
	They gave me the court, and I was hunching away.
	This is one of these big masked things that went on, you know, with witnesses, and the room was filled.
	And so I was doing my remote viewing, you know, on the teleconference thing and I stopped
	at my tracks and I looked at them and I was like, God.
	So I whispered over and how there and I said, how?
	I don't know what to do.
	I think that somebody shot down a UFO or UFO fired on him or something like that and put off with his tail as an egg, you know?
	All right, sure.
	And then he looked at me and he said, whispered back, he said, I'll cry and then go, it's your show.
	You do what you think you should do.
	So I just simply sketched out this picture of the UFO and this bus sitting on my right
	hand.
	He grabbed my shoulder and he said, what's that?
	And I said, sir, I think it's rather obvious.
	What's that?
	And he took that paper and he stood up and when he stood up everybody else stood up except
	me and put off.
	And they walked out of the room.
	All of them.
	So put off on it, went back to the hotel and I said, oh gosh, we've blown the program.
	So we went out and got drunk on margaritas and things like that and went back to SRI.
	So three days later, put us, got a call.
	The call said, okay, how much money do you want?
	Wow.
	Did you ever see anything like that disk again in any of the other remote viewing sessions you did?
	No, but, well, not for the sponsors, but, you know, we did a lot of playing around in private work and things like that.
	And you encountered the disks and into this issue of a non-human intelligence?
	This complicates this particular issue.
	I'll only say that I know we are not alone.
	Right.
	So our idea is from the master teacher and the inventor of remote viewing that he has a different view on the reliability and the ability for remote viewing to work with other intelligence gathering methods to find some things that they might not have found otherwise.
	Sometimes the flow of my program scares me.
	I don't know how we do it.
	In other words, we'll open up on some topic during the week, and there you will be with some following up right on DreamLine.
	That's incredible.
	Absolutely incredible.
	All right, Linda, as usual, we're way short on time, so let us have your address, contact number, fax numbers, date of birth, social security number, whatever.
	Okay.
	I just felt that this was really important, and it was very interesting to hear right from the inventors now tonight.
	Me, Linda Howe.
	My address is post office box 538 Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
	The zip code is 19006.
	And I do keep confidences on names for anybody who wants to communicate with me.
	My fax number is area code 215-419-840.
	And the 800 toll free number for information about my books and documentaries
	that have focused on investigations of the animal mutilation, crop circles,
	the human abduction syndrome, government knowledge, cover up, all of that.
	The number is 800-707-9993.
	That's 800-707-9993.
	And I always look forward to hearing from our viewers.
	There are some amazing stories out there.
	Well, you're still back in your TV days, unless they're staring at the grill over there.
	All right, Linda.
	Wonderful, a wonderful right on the money report, and boy, there's a lot to think about out there.
	Good.
	Thank you, Linda.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	That is, of course, Linda Howe, and generally, I think she is, she hates me to say this, but she is the leading investigative journalist, we'll put it that way, into crop circles and animal mutilations.
	All right, because, Dr. Ryan O'Leary.
	Doctor, are you there?
	Yes, hi Art, how are you doing?
	I'm very well indeed, thank you.
	I spent six months on Maui.
	It's a beautiful place to live.
	Yes it is and I just moved here a few months ago so I'm just getting acclimated and actually most of that time I've been on the mainland anyway going on a tour of my new book so I'm glad to be back here and glad to be relaxed and glad to be on a show with an intelligent interviewer for a change.
	That's very kind of you I take it you've heard the program.
	Oh, yes.
	Well, I was on Area 2000 a few years ago, so I remember the interview very well.
	Well, you're also able to hear it there in Hawaii.
	I don't know if you knew that or not, but it's on KHVH.
	No, I didn't know that.
	Oh, yes.
	You can hear it right there.
	At any rate, so you were an astronaut, eh?
	Yeah, that's not really... that's certainly an impressive credential.
	I was in the astronaut program in 1967 and 68, and that was just... of course, that was during the Apollo program.
	And I was appointed to go to Mars.
	I had just completed my PhD work at Berkeley about Mars, and I was selected as an astronaut to go to Mars, and then cut it out from the program, and when that happened, I resigned.
	Before you sort of disavow that, though, Well, you know what I'm interested in?
	Well, I don't know about relatively speaking, because my whole life has been intensive research over the last 10 to 15 years on the paranormal UFOs, free energy, and stuff like that.
	Oh, I know.
	We're going to fill the bulk of our... Okay, we're going to get to that, but what I want to ask you about is that magic moment, if you can remember back, way back when, when somebody notified you that you were actually going to go to Mars.
	Obviously then, you thought, hey, I'm gonna go to Mars.
	What was that like?
	Oh, it was exhilarating, and it was really quite a process to be selected, too.
	Alan Shepard was on the interview committee, and he said, would you submit to a hazardous two-year journey to Mars?
	And I kind of hemmed and hawed a little.
	I said, well, I think I would, but I don't know whether my wife would like it.
	Yes.
	Did you go home and ask?
	I'd like that for an answer.
	So then he said, you'd better want to.
	And I said, yes, yes, okay, that's fine.
	So you didn't go home and ask your wife first?
	Well, you see, of course, those were the days of the right stuff.
	I did crew cod.
	I was a fresh Ph.D.
	from Berkeley.
	Those were the good old days in Apollo.
	It was the time to be there.
	Because NASA in those days had a vision, a purpose, and a goal.
	What about now?
	No, I see a lot of these federal agencies, NASA, the Department of Energy, the DOD, the CIA, and all these secret agencies as being more and more bureaucratic dinosaurs.
	They really have to do with the realities that are unfolding around us.
	What do you think happened to our vision, Doctor?
	We did have a vision, I mean, Kennedy inspired it, we're going to the moon, and then we were going to go to Mars, and now, you know, We barely even can get excited about putting up a shuttle.
	I know.
	It's very sad.
	It's very sad to see the loss of vision.
	And I think it was because basically, well, Kennedy was murdered.
	And it was his vision, and so it just kind of floundered.
	It just kind of died.
	Other politicians like Johnson and Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon tried to stimulate some interest, but by then the peak interest had waned.
	There's so many things wrong with our country now, doctor, that not having a goal, not having a vision used to unify us as a country, and we just, you know, the biggest goal for most people now is to make it to Friday.
	Absolutely.
	I couldn't agree with you more.
	That's when I started to get out of my box when I was on the faculty.
	It was an interesting introduction.
	You said facilities at Cornell, Princeton.
	I was actually on the faculty.
	I was a professor in each of those universities.
	When I was at Princeton in 1979, I myself had a remote viewing experience.
	I heard the interview with Ingo Swann.
	It was most interesting.
	It just totally violated my paradigm at that time.
	I was in the physics department at Princeton being a proper, mainstream, materialistic physicist.
	Well, why don't you tell us about it?
	Are you willing to tell us about that?
	Sure, I'll tell you a little bit about it.
	I was sitting opposite a total stranger.
	It was the last day of a training or workshop.
	This one happened to be LifeSpring.
	It was my first experience at trying out some of these exercises to get a person into a state of blissful meditation.
	That kind of prepared me and got me into a state.
	I was sitting with a total stranger who gave me the name of a man, his age, and the fact that he was from Allentown, Pennsylvania.
	I was supposed to have this person guest.
	This woman, who was a total stranger, knew the man very well.
	So I started describing him, and I said he was a journalist and meteorologist, and he liked to spend a lot of time on Maui, and lost his wife by death, all of which happened to be true.
	So at that time, given my worldview at the time, my perspectives, I... Well, at first I was exhilarated, but when it was Monday morning and back to work as usual at Princeton, I recalled that my colleagues would love to chatter about claims to the paranormal being pure bunk.
	So I began to realize that, hey, these aren't the folks for me to share this information with.
	And somewhat ironically, right around that time, Robert John, who was the Dean of the School of Engineering at Princeton, started his experiments on psychokinesis in the basement of the engineering department.
	And he'd tell me what he was doing.
	And I didn't tell him what I was doing, but I was off to work, Sean.
	Are you at all privy, by the way, to any of the results you obtained in the area?
	explore these realms beyond normal materialistic science and that's what really started to
	open me up.
	Are you at all privy by the way to any of the results you obtained in that area?
	I've always been very interested in psychokinesis.
	Oh yes, yes and in fact that's another thing in your introduction I want to elaborate on
	a little bit is that I've done a trilogy of books and I call it my new science trilogy
	and the middle book is called The Second Coming of Science and I devote a whole chapter to
	the landmark research of Robert John and that's spelled J-H-N, Robert John and Brenda Dunn
	and their colleagues at Princeton University and their work basically started as building
	up a database.
	People's influences on random event generators.
	These are electronic boxes that spit out binary numbers.
	Zeros and ones.
	And they're designed to run randomly.
	The zeros and ones are generated like about a hundred per second randomly.
	And then an operator goes into the laboratory and attempts to influence the results one way or the other.
	And these are a number of different controlled trials where they would get results.
	And what they found was that virtually everybody That went into the laboratory.
	You don't have to be an Ingo Swann to do it.
	You and me and anybody else can actually influence the random event generator and have a somewhat repeatable pattern.
	To what degree?
	That's personalized.
	That is matched with a person's own identity.
	I understand.
	To what degree?
	What is the best they achieve, do you know?
	Well, you mean the Mind Over Matter effects, about one part in 5,000, but I can elaborate on that story and talk about filtering techniques to amplify effects to as much as one part in five.
	But at any rate, if you just take the data cumulatively, you find that in the trials where people attempt to influence the results, you do get results.
	And sometimes it's the opposite of intention, but the point is it's non-random.
	And so they've been doing these experiments now in Princeton for now 16 years, the same length of time that I've been exploring new science.
	Their results, I think, are very important.
	They provide the database you need, from a scientific perspective, to establish beyond any reasonable doubt that psychokinesis is real.
	That, in other words, we humans can, in fact, virtually all of us, can influence outcomes in the material world.
	And that's a very exciting result.
	We can influence outcomes.
	Can we influence Material objects.
	In other words, can we actually produce, as anybody documented, I know the Russians have worked heavily on it, physical movement of an object with the power of the mind.
	Oh yes, there have been a lot of experiments on that too.
	I myself haven't attended any of those, but probably the most dramatic demonstrations of that kind of thing that I've seen in my world travels.
	And by the way, my trilogy is based on my world travels photojournalistically.
	I've been around the world many times.
	Tomas Green Morton in Brazil.
	I visited him.
	He's written up in the Second Coming of Science.
	And he was able to bend spoons at a distance.
	He was able to materialize perfume from the back of his hand and roll down his fingers to his fingertips and form puddles on the table.
	And there was a case about the eight martini.
	Well, he had a fifth of rum.
	The more that he drank, the more he was able to do.
	Which is kind of the opposite of Sai Baba, who is another Very, very talented.
	He's an Indian Swami that's very well known.
	And I have now visited him privately and personally or with small groups on four occasions now over the last three years.
	And I've seen him manifest many, many things out of thin air.
	Doctor, that leads us down an interesting path.
	The influence of chemicals with regard to attaining some sort of altered state.
	Now, you mentioned alcohol.
	What about the What about the large group of drugs in the LSD family, that sort of hallucinogenic type thing?
	Well, I'm not too familiar with those experiments.
	I know folks like Terrence McKenna and others have looked at that.
	But I know that in some instances it can elevate one's psychic abilities.
	and by psychic abilities I mean any number of things like psychokinesis, teleportation, remote viewing, and all these
	other phenomena that involve the mind-matter interaction.
	Fascinating. That's a brave statement to make.
	A lot of people wouldn't make it.
	Now, would you say these things, and did you, when you were on the staff of these academic facilities?
	Well, obviously not.
	It's just like the UFO phenomenon itself.
	The more you look at it, the more you realize there's something to it.
	And, uh, most scientists, uh, the people who call themselves scientists, uh, are so smug as to sit in their armchairs and, uh, deny evidence.
	That's very obvious.
	Well, you know, John... You have to go to some effort to, uh, to observe it, and in my case, uh, to go all the way to India and see Sai Baba and be able to get in to see him personally, which is in itself a miracle.
	Well, you know, uh, John Mack has spoken out at Harvard, and you know what happened to him to that.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, gosh, I'll tell you.
	I mean, I really feel for John.
	He's a good friend and a close colleague.
	And I, you know, I was at Princeton before I started to come out of the closet in these matters, fortunately.
	So I didn't have to suffer the heat that John Maccas had to suffer.
	But the positive thing, of course, about staying is that he can have a great deal of influence on further directions of research, and his research is very valuable and important.
	All right.
	Now, I'm going to get into a very sensitive area with regard to remote viewing.
	I had Major Danes on the other night and interviewed him.
	I'm sure you're familiar with the name.
	Oh, yes.
	SciTech.
	Yeah, that's SciTech.
	That's correct.
	And then I had another doctor on following him.
	Both of them said the same thing.
	Major Dames, only a very quick reference to it.
	But there's been some experimentation with remote viewing, and those in it say they have contact with non-human intelligence.
	What do you know about that?
	I don't know about the SciTech work, to be honest with you.
	I haven't researched that.
	No, not specifically.
	I just meant as a general rule.
	Have you also heard this?
	Well, I have kind of tangentially, but again, I'm not a real expert in remote viewing.
	I had my own remote viewing experience, which then triggered this whole new paradigm of science for me and made me just totally change my life.
	And that was my purpose of pointing that out, but I would check that out with Ingo Swann or some of the real experts in that area.
	Well, he clearly said, we are not alone.
	That's great.
	I think that that's another, then, thread, at least, of evidence.
	You can't, of course, give 100% certainty.
	Basically, it's interesting because a lot of people think that the claims I make are far out.
	But not really, because I'm a very, very cautious scientist, basically, and I seek the scientific method wherever possible to attack questions.
	Well, as a matter of fact, we've got to take a break, but when we come back, I will ask you how you attack the UFO field scientifically.
	I would like to know that, because...
	That's what we try to do here.
	Maybe that'll give us some leads.
	We'll be back to you, Dr. O'Leary, in just one moment.
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	I would think that, first of all, the scientific method is, of course, the method that's used now within the context of current science, which I think can tell us a lot more than we've given ourselves credit for.
	And certainly in the UFO phenomenon, such things as the ground traces and animal mutilations and multiple witness sightings.
	You know, all of the relatively hard evidence, I would say, is something that comes from the scientific method, more or less.
	Well, I mean, it's a collection of data.
	The problem now is the interpretation of the data.
	And that is, of course, where there are as many theories as there are investigators.
	And part of the problem there is that the UFO phenomenon obviously has such a high degree of weirdness that we have to be humble.
	It's sort of like the A coke bottle falls out of the sky and you're a bushman and what do you make of it?
	Or an aboriginal is walking through the bush and he sees a 747 flying overhead.
	he'll have his own mythology about what's going on but he won't have the foggiest notion of what's really
	going on besides certain threads of evidence that come out with such
	things as of course reverse engineering at area 51 and genetic
	engineering through the abduction phenomenon and so forth
	uh... the ecological crisis and mandate and various channel works and so forth
	all of those things are common threads of messages that seem to be coming
	forward but if we still don't really know what's going on the whole question and
	debate it was interesting i was just at a uh... briefing of the board of
	directors of the institute of noetic sciences and and steve grier of c-study
	and uh... jacques valet and i made presentations about all of this and
	although valet and and grier and other people might have various interpretations of what's going on we really don't
	know we we We do know one thing, and that is that we're dealing with dimensions beyond time and space.
	And obviously, when we get into those realms, it's very hard for us to develop some kind of coherent philosophy or theory.
	That's what makes it so laughable for folks like Carl Sagan, God bless him, to assert that the UFO phenomenon is just a Why do you think he does that?
	abductions and hallucinations and to just totally and summarily dismiss the evidence
	from crop circles and from the anomalies on Mars and so forth.
	Why do you think he does that?
	Do you think he has a specific agenda?
	I don't know, to be honest with you.
	I taught with him at Cornell.
	We were both professors of astronomy at Cornell way back in 1968, and I worked very closely with him.
	But that's before my own worldview shifted.
	That was before I, myself, considered it okay to look at UFO phenomena and related phenomena.
	But I can say one thing is that folks like Carl, There is a very strong ethic within what's called the scientific community to stay inside the box, to... and peer pressure and funding.
	Those are the two big variables that guide the research choices of scientists like Fagan.
	I know because I was there.
	I did it myself for many years.
	I was in the mainstream.
	So I know how that works.
	So in other words, for fear of losing some funding, you might not utter a sentence or a word you might otherwise utter.
	Oh, that's right.
	That's right.
	In other words, when it comes to belief systems, boy, there's been some really good research done on this, and we're really right up against it.
	I just, of course, finished my...
	I did a quick tour in my new book, Miracle in the Void, and I went all over the country, figure eights and doing whole life expos here and there and doing radio and television, and I really got a sense that what we're dealing with here is that many, many people have such strong beliefs that they don't want to hear about this stuff.
	And it's fascinating that people who call themselves scientists are among the worst offenders.
	Science, to me, is the quest for the truth.
	Through whatever means.
	Exploratory means, definitive, repeatable experiments, and so forth.
	So, what I've taken upon myself is to be like an Indiana Jones of science, if you will, and spend the last ten years as I have in this inexhaustible quest for the truth.
	How much heat have you taken over?
	This last tour I took a lot of heat, and we'll get to it later in the show, of course, but free energy is a concept that's coming along a lot more rapidly than many people will acknowledge, and this is really, in a sense, independent but somewhat overlapping with the UFO phenomenon.
	The people are producing energy devices now that produce virtually unlimited electricity, and this is popping up all over the world.
	Well, the UFO credibility rating, according to Gallup polls, as we know, is in about the 60% range, publicly, in America.
	The free energy credibility rating is much lower, even.
	And so, what we're doing here is, actually, we're creating a new paradigm.
	We're really in a, I think, in the middle of a scientific revolution.
	All right, Doctor.
	I'm going to have to ask you to hold it right there.
	We've got news coming in at the top of the hour.
	I want to ask you about zero-point energy.
	I also want to ask you when we come back, since you've got a PhD in astronomy, about Hale-Bopp, and we'll do that when we come back in a moment.
	And Dr. Brian O'Leary.
	Doctor, can you tell us anything at all about this comic, this Hale-Bopp?
	Well, no, Art.
	I wish I could.
	It sounds like some of our questions are mismatched, but that's okay.
	But I can make some recommendations of people for you to interview about that.
	You see, what happens to me is that if I focus on an area like free energy or zero-point energy or the UFO question or the face on Mars, I really focus on it for quite a while.
	I'm not as aware of all the breaking stories.
	All right, well, that one's breaking.
	There's a big one out there beyond the orbit of Jupiter, and it's going to miss us by quite a bit, 1 to 1.5 AU, somewhere in there.
	But it's a big one, I thought I would ask.
	Let us then go back to what you do talk about.
	I've got a fax here from Phoenix, Arizona.
	Please ask Dr. O'Leary what he thinks of Hoagland's Mars mission work, the face on Mars, the monuments of Mars.
	Okay, that I can address quite well because that's an area that I've been quite involved, heavily involved in the research.
	And by the way, I want to let your listeners know that Dick Hoagland is one of several researchers who have looked at this.
	In great detail and have published papers in the peer-reviewed literature.
	Yes.
	And there's also, of course, the McDaniel Report.
	So what I want to do is kind of just fill you all in on the status of research and so forth is that a number of years ago, Hoagland and others noticed that this very strange object that was photographed by the Viking orbiter in 1976 on the surface of Mars.
	This is an unmanned reconnaissance probe that was set up then.
	It took a picture of an object that looked like a large mesa that resembled a human face staring straight up into space.
	It's about a mile across and quite large and looks very sphinx-like, almost with a headdress.
	And when the scientists first looked at that, and I know these people very well because I was involved in the Mariner missions myself as a scientist at JPL and so forth, Uh, that these people, because the possibility that it might actually be an artifact...
	This was so totally alien to the world view of the scientists that were present.
	After a little nervous, self-conscious laughter, that looks like a face!
	They pronounced the object as being nothing but a pile of rocks.
	It just resembles a human face, just like sometimes you look up in the mountains around Greenland there and see faces and rocks.
	But as the sun changed its angle, Vince DiPietro, a researcher for Goddard Space Flight
	Center, and Greg Molinar noticed that there
	was a second picture in another orbit that showed the face at a different sun angle,
	and it was still very face-like.
	Yes.
	And so Dr. Mark Carlotto and I and others, using state-of-the-art image processing equipment,
	published in the peer-reviewed literature, places like Applied Optics and Journal
	of the British Interplanetary Society, some very provocative papers that
	suggest that these features, especially the face, could be artificial.
	And there are a number of reasons for that.
	One is that the three-dimensional structure of the face is very face-like.
	And so this caused a very interesting controversy.
	Some of us banded together and wanted to influence NASA's decision making on the Mars Observer mission, which was launched a few years ago, which would have provided much higher resolution pictures of the face, to have them target the face as a high priority.
	Well, as a matter of fact, my understanding is, Doctor, that they fought it tooth and nail.
	In other words, they specifically said they would not go back and look at it again.
	Odd, because they didn't have any other things that looked like faces on Mars.
	Yeah, there was a political process where they were in denial for a while, and then were provoked into saying, well, OK, we'll look at it.
	But then, you see, one of the ironies of this is, of course, when Mars Observer, two days out of orbit from Mars a couple of years ago, when it was coming into Mars, totally lost the signal.
	So we got nothing.
	Correct.
	And of course there have been allegations that perhaps NASA actually did get pictures but was covering them up.
	And other allegations that, well, maybe there's some alien activity around Mars because Phobos 2, the Soviet Union, also failed when it got to Mars.
	So there are a number of speculations, but that's the realm of speculation.
	The realm of solid research suggests very strongly that these objects are artificial constructions.
	And if they are, obviously this is an extremely important element in the whole search for extraterrestrial
	intelligence.
	And the fact that NASA has been stonewalling this through the years was very eloquently stated in a report by a
	professor emeritus of philosophy, Stanley McDaniel, at Sonoma State University.
	And he wrote what's called the McDaniel Report.
	And he looked at what scientists call, or philosophers call the epistemology, fancy word that basically means how do we
	know what we know, behind investigations into these features.
	And he became very surprised to find that the responsible outside investigations that some of us had carried out
	through the years, We're in the peer-reviewed literature.
	We're certainly far more solidly based scientifically than the allegations against and the ridicule, the obfuscation, the propaganda issued by NASA and by Carl Sagan on these things.
	Carl wrote an article in Parade Magazine.
	He seems to like to do that.
	In this particular one, a number of years ago, one of the pictures of the face appears to have been doctored from its original version, which really, you know, this really That gets me concerned because these are the people I used to work with and I thought scientists were totally honest in their approach to scientific questions.
	Richard Hoagland's work is based on something that he calls tetrahedral physics.
	Do you, uh, have you examined that?
	Have you looked at that?
	I haven't, to be honest with you.
	You know, each of these subjects could take a scientist months to do, so I have to make my choices, and it's very difficult to do so.
	I do know one thing is that Dick Hoagland, I admire his work a lot, and he's an excellent speaker, and I think he has a lot of very valid points to raise.
	However, sometimes arguments based on geometry or latitude and that kind of thing, I think need tighter criteria to pin it down, if you know what I mean.
	Alright, well then let us skip then quickly to the moon.
	He has said, has photographs, that he claims show shards and what he claims may even be old buildings or cities.
	on the moon. The photographs are very controversial. There are some folks that definitely defend
	that point of view and there are some others that don't.
	And so I think the jury is still out on that, just like the alien autopsy footage. Allegations
	like that I think take years of in-depth work and fortunately in the case of Mars that has
	already been done.
	Thanks to Stan McDaniel and also Dick Hoagland and Mark Carlotto and a number of other investigators.
	All of us worked together for a number of years to come up with the findings we did come up with.
	And they're all reported in my books, by the way, as well.
	All right.
	Let's skip, then, and jump.
	Shift the gears, yes.
	Well, that's really been my love over the last three years.
	About three years ago, I began to investigate this concept.
	I couldn't ignore it anymore.
	There were too many people reminding me of Nikola Tesla and various concepts, T. Henry Murray and these other...
	Uh, people in history that came up with devices that evidently produced more electricity than went into it.
	And uh, and of course my initial reaction was like, would be like any mainstream scientist.
	That smacks of perpetual motion, it makes no sense.
	Uh, that's bunk.
	And so I said, well, OK, I'm just going to spend some time at this.
	And so I first visited with Thomas Bearden, a very talented researcher, on these questions.
	And I began to find that 19th century physics, going into the 20th century, went in kind of a strange direction.
	Because a lot of physicists had forgotten what was called the scalar term, or a term in Maxwell's equations of electromagnetics, to kind of bring this down to Earth.
	Basically, I think what's going on here, and this is according to the most recent series of Harold Puthoff, Bernie Haish, and other people who have published some of these ideas in the peer-reviewed mainstream physics literature.
	So here we're talking about mainstream physics theories, not conjecture or even metaphysics.
	And what Puthoff and others have come up with, and what I've already come up with myself, virtually independently of that, as well as physicist and Apollo 14 astronaut Ed Mitchell and a number
	of other people, a number of us have been working on this question for a
	number of years and we're all coming together speaking the same language and it's really good news. And basically what
	it is, Art, is that the vacuum of space and all of time and space is
	flooded with an all-pervasive electromagnetic field called the zero-point field.
	And it's called the zero-point field because at absolute zero temperatures, when you think that all molecular motion and therefore all energy ceases to exist, the energy does in fact exist, but it is homogeneous and isotropic.
	It means it's the same everywhere and the same in all directions.
	And what that basically means is that it's virtually undetectable and untappable unless you start to do something like accelerate a charge, an electromagnetic charge, within that time-space matrix.
	So to make a long story reasonably short, people have been coming up with devices ever since the time of Faraday in the 19th century that have magnets that are located on wheels that are spun up.
	at a certain threshold RPM and lo and behold because of the acceleration
	Yes.
	in a circular motion of the magnets, they interact with the zero point field
	and create anomalous amounts of electricity.
	And these things have been observed in the laboratory for a number of years
	but now the technology for rotating magnetic wheels, cold fusion devices, which many of us believe is a form of
	zero point energy.
	Solid-state devices, a number of electrostatic devices, Tesla coils and so forth.
	What I discovered was that not only is the theory palatable, it's absolutely necessary.
	In other words, one has to hypothesize that this field does exist.
	And that these are the conditions for which you can tap that energy, and the energy is virtually unlimited.
	It basically, uh, I think another way of saying it is that it comes from dimensions beyond time and space, and totally floods all of time and space.
	Alright, Doctor?
	One cubic centimeter of it is enough to evaporate all the oceans on the Earth.
	Doctor, is the second law of thermodynamics invalid?
	Well, within the context, and again we talk about boxes, if you talk about, remember now, the laws of thermodynamics are based on systems that are in, quote, equilibrium.
	Okay, and non-equilibrium thermodynamics becomes very, very, a very sticky wicket for those that want the universe to be simple.
	And people like Elia Prigogine, who won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for Chaos Theory, his discovery of Chaos Theory, found that when systems are out of equilibrium, that there are conditions under which they can go through phase changes, or enormous shifts, in short amounts of time.
	And some of these ideas that Pritijna has come up with, John Archibald Wheeler, a Nobel laureate physicist, who also hypothesized the zero-point energy field, because a lot of the concepts of quantum theory must depend on the existence of the field.
	There's now an emerging consensus among those mainstream physicists who have chosen to look at the question that this field doesn't exist.
	And therefore, the underlying principle for a number of things like anti-gravity propulsion, non-linear, non-Newtonian motions that you see in the UFO phenomenon, And it just explains a whole host of different phenomena.
	But the good news about all of this is that it can also solve our energy crisis and stop the greenhouse effect.
	Alright, stop there for just a moment.
	We'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Dr. Brian O'Leary.
	We're talking energy.
	We'll be right back.
	Back to Maui, Hawaii and Dr. O'Leary.
	Doctor, you're saying Some of that was pretty technical stuff.
	Yes, I have to confess.
	What you're basically telling everybody is there is a way here on Earth or in space to draw on a source of energy that is literally everywhere.
	Have you seen such a mission, such a device demonstrated to actually produce more energy out than it takes in?
	Yes.
	And again, by that I mean it's like the second law of thermodynamics, which is a box that circumscribes a... In other words, the assumption is the system is in equilibrium.
	Well, likewise, these objects actually are objects that tend to interact with a zero-point field and extract a very tiny fraction of that energy.
	And so, in a way, in the larger sense, using a bigger box... And of course, Dreamland is about getting out of the box.
	That's right.
	In the bigger box concept, Then it's possible, because this is simply a previously unacknowledged source of energy that's been lying in potential.
	It's like a pythagore waiting to be tapped.
	But we just have to know how to do it.
	Well, I have seen a number of machines worldwide, and this has really astounded me, Art, I think.
	And now, you know, when I got into my third of my trilogy, Uh, this was three years ago and I got into this subject.
	I thought I was going to have an easy time of it and just go around and take pictures of inventors around the world and do a photojournalistic report, which is what my new book is all about.
	Uh, what happened to me was that I saw so many of these demonstrations.
	I saw one in India, Paramahansa Tiwari, for example.
	Uh, he has an end machine.
	Uh, this was originally invented, uh, by the, the, uh, MIT, uh, former MIT man who's now in New Zealand, Bruce DePalma.
	Well, at any rate, Tiwari is the Chief Project Engineer of the largest nuclear power plant construction project in India, and is a very high-up government official there, is a PhD physicist, and has won all sorts of prizes.
	He's a brilliant man.
	And the Indian government allows him, in his off time, and he's going to have more off time in another year when he retires from the project, to develop free energy.
	And so he's developed his own end machine, actually a couple of them.
	And very dramatically demonstrated to me the concept by basically he accelerated a wheel with magnets on it to a certain threshold revolutions per minute and at that point enough excess energy was coming off so that you could unplug the motor.
	And then it runs as a generator, indefinitely generating electricity.
	Now the only thing is, the only hitch is in this particular machine, he has to turn it off after a while because it overheats.
	You see, we're not at the commercial prototype stage in some of these technologies, although that's beginning to happen rapidly too.
	And there are all sorts of professional organizations starting on this whole thing.
	This technology is much further along than you would ever imagine.
	Japan is the most likely place for it to be developed.
	We already are seeing investments by a number of Japanese corporations in this technology.
	Another person whom I visited, Shuji Inamata, Who is a PhD chemist who works at the Electrotechnical Laboratories at the Tsukuba Space Facility in Japan.
	All right, Doctor, we're going to have to hold it there for a moment.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Anyway, Doctor, listen, you've got a bunch of books, and you've got a brand new book I know, Miracle in the Void.
	It's beautiful.
	It's right in front of me.
	Why don't you tell people what they can get, how they can get it?
	What it costs, all that kind of stuff, telephone numbers, whatever you like.
	Plug away.
	Oh, that's great.
	I appreciate that, Art.
	Well, the Miracle in the Void, the subtitle is Free Energy, UFOs, and Other Scientific Revelations, and it's a number of things.
	It's about the coming energy revolution, free energy and what it means to our planet.
	It's about existing devices currently and secretly being developed worldwide.
	And this is based on my... Well, it's also, in a way, it's like your book a little bit.
	It's both a personal odyssey and a journalistic look at the state of the art.
	Based on my journey all over the world and visiting dozens of free energy inventors and theoreticians and other people.
	But it's also a concise examination between, as in the relationship between free energy and the UFO question.
	Well sure as hell isn't establishment stuff.
	No, it isn't.
	In fact, I find myself, if anything, and this is very sad, but very often ridiculed, for what I consider very detailed photojournalistic work.
	But then again, we're talking, you know, there's a great Bertrand Russell quote, I love this one, is that the resistance to a new idea is proportional to the square of its importance.
	And so, for example, let's take the question of energy, and then we'll get back to the
	books in a moment.
	Yes, fine.
	But in the question of energy, we're talking about a $2 trillion highly polluting energy
	infrastructure, mostly due to the burning of oil worldwide.
	We know we only have 40 years of oil left.
	20 years ago, I was a presidential candidate, Morris Udall's energy advisor and speechwriter for his presidential candidacy.
	And I also orchestrated hearings for the Interior Committee.
	and uh... subcommittee on energy in the environment and and this is twenty years ago in nineteen seventy five and during that time uh... we had an energy crisis we had a perception that we had uh... to develop alternative energy sources and at that time i was unaware of the zero point energy or free energy and uh... it was only over the last three years that i did my in-depth research which uh... resulted in miracle in the void so that that book is just out and uh...
	It's doing very well, by the way.
	It's been praised by people like Whitley Strieber and Tom Bearden, Bruce DePalma, and a number of other very well-known... Dennis Weaver, the actor.
	Oh, here, let me put in a plug.
	It says, Whitley said, and I had him on here a couple of weeks ago, Whitley said, I love this brilliantly conceived, wise, and wonderful book.
	That's quite a wonderful quote from Whitley.
	Yeah, I really appreciate that and you know he's a colleague along with many of the other people you interview and certainly Whitley, I agree with Whitley that we're dealing now with recovering lost memories of our essence.
	And that's part of what the UFO phenomenon is about, which makes it so important.
	The phenomenon of contact and the fact that it's happening in ways we may not have preconceived or formulated.
	And so I address that question in this book, as well as the question of the paradigm shift that will inevitably happen when we present free energy to our culture.
	And the Japanese are already doing that, and that's the point.
	And no matter what happens, all the haranguing and suppression that we've had here in America and the expatriation of inventors to other countries is shocking.
	And so my book talks about that.
	It talks about the suppression syndrome.
	It talks about the state of the art.
	And it talks about my own personal grieving process, in a way, because, you know, there are a lot of folks out there like Lone Eagle.
	God bless them.
	People let their fundamentalist beliefs sometimes run up against the stop here and obviously the government itself and Fagan and so forth.
	We can't put energy on that.
	We have to look at these technologies as they emerge.
	And they're obviously going to change the world so profoundly.
	And that's what really I got into as a personal experience.
	And I found that culturally, virtually everybody is suffering from a severe case of denial.
	and that their belief systems being violated is something that most people or many people
	find untenable.
	What very often happens, and this was my experience in my book tour around the country, is that
	when people get out of their denial, and there is a wonderful bumper sticker that says, the
	truth will set you free, but at first it will piss you off.
	What happens, and then I got into Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's research on death and dying,
	is that normal people need to grieve the old, and the grieving process involves a bunch
	of irrational emotions that people go through in order to finally accept the new.
	And I see this happening to me, I see it happening to all of us.
	That when our denial is through and we get into anger, then that's a normal progression in the grieving process.
	Alright, Doctor.
	I'll need to help one another through it.
	How did they get your book?
	Okay, yeah, let's get to the punchline here.
	Yes, you can get Miracle in the Void in the States for $25 postpaid by calling 800-842-8338.
	And I'll repeat that for you.
	by calling 800-842-8338.
	And I'll repeat that for you.
	That's 800-842-8338.
	And I'm also offering a special of my trilogy of books which really describes the full gamut of my explorations
	over the last ten years.
	And that includes my books Exploring Inner and Outer Space,
	The Second Coming of Science, and Miracle in the Void.
	And that can be obtained for $55 post-paid by calling the same 800 number,
	that is 800-842-8338.
	Very good.
	All right, I've got a bunch of people that would like to ask you questions, so let's take a couple.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	I'm calling from San Diego, my name's Chad.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm wondering if you're familiar with the work that Joe Newman's done.
	We don't have to go overseas to see over Unity devices.
	Joe's got one he's been working with for 30 years now.
	Yeah, he was on Johnny Carson with it or something.
	Yeah, several years ago.
	I've seen it and talked to him several times myself.
	And I've been building one up myself and having pretty good results with it myself.
	Sorry, anyway, I wondered if you had... Well, that's very good, and I, unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to visit with Joe Newman.
	I kind of made an arbitrary selection of inventors, and in fact, I went abroad for most of my... because I think there's more action offshore here in this particular question.
	Well, that's what he was saying, though, that you don't really have to go offshore, that Mr. Newman has claimed for I don't know how long now that he's got such a device.
	Yes, and there are a number of people out there, and what I did was I picked about, oh, 12 to 20 individuals that I really focused on, like, for example, the Canadian inventor John Hutchison, who's come up with a solid-state device, which I think is perhaps the archetype of a device that we're going to have in our homes that will replace our fuse boxes and circuit breakers and internal combustion engines.
	And this I think is going to happen very soon, like within a few years, because the Japanese, you see, while there have been developments here by folks like Joe Newman and all of the others, and I really give them tremendous credit for their pioneering work in the face of a very suppressive and non-supportive environment, But what's happening now abroad, and especially in Japan, is that people like Inamada, that I referred to earlier, he's being funded by Toshiba Corporation to develop a superconducting magnet system.
	And you see, this is now, what's happening right now is different from a few years ago, and that's what my explorations revealed to me, and what Miracle in the Void is all about, is that, hey, this technology is not only one that has been developed by isolated inventors here and there through the decades, But this is going like gangbusters, and some of us have even founded a professional organization called the International Association for New Science.
	And we've had now two symposia on new energy.
	And we're going to have a third one in Denver on April 27th to 29th.
	And we hope to have there, there's one device called the Patterson Fuel Cell, which is basically a cold fusion device, which is a whole different subject, but in a way related.
	Yes, in a way.
	Which produces over-unity electrical power.
	So these things are happening very fast.
	Doctor, I've got a question, and maybe it's a larger question.
	If these devices here, or in Japan, or in India, or wherever in the world they are, exist, And they really do what they say they do.
	This is a very capitalistic country.
	And somebody, surely somebody would come out and produce one and say, here it is.
	Put this box outside your home.
	Disconnect the power company.
	That's it.
	And they'd make themselves a multiple billionaire in the process.
	It is very strange art, but when you get into it, and of course that's what my book is about.
	In fact, I talked about one financier, one potential financier of the project, and most
	people in that world are waiting for commercial prototypes to become actually available.
	It's the chicken and the egg problem.
	Yeah, but all you'd have to do, doctor, is hook up one house, disconnect the power, and say, uh, invite the press in, and say, there it is.
	And we're getting very much closer to that day, uh, and uh, so look for it in the news.
	So far there's been pretty much a media blackout.
	So you're saying it is going to happen?
	Oh yes, but the problem is now, I've always heard that these free energy devices and so forth, if they were to ever become available, that they would wreak havoc with the economy.
	cause all kinds of economic problems. Is there any reality to that?
	Of course. Doctor?
	Yeah, oh absolutely and that's an excellent question.
	In fact, I made a technical presentation to my cousin in Albuquerque, who is the president of the largest bank there,
	and he was in absolute agreement with the technical feasibility of it
	and the fact that we may be able to have it technically within, let's say, five years.
	Especially if the Japanese develop it as they are.
	But, he said that America's economy is designed to not be able to allow for anything that revolutionary for at least 20 years.
	Well, so then, whatever the... Doctor, hold on.
	If I had one then, let's go back to what I said a little while ago.
	And I was able to demonstrate that it worked.
	With one house.
	Just one house.
	Would the government guys, dressed in black, come and kill me?
	No, I don't think so.
	See, I think the genie's out of the bottle, and that's what part of my research for Miracle in the Void was all about, was I found that there were just untold hundreds of inventors worldwide, many of whom are coming up with research devices that are like preludes to commercial prototypes.
	And two or three people have already come up with commercial prototypes.
	So we're right on the verge of an explosive technological revolution here.
	And so the real question is economics, and I think that's an excellent question.
	I know, but the problem, doctor, is that people are killed every day for hundreds or even in the low thousands of dollars.
	We're talking about literally trillions of dollars here.
	That's correct.
	So what that means from my point of view is, you see, I looked at the ecological questions too, and there's some very alarming news about the Earth.
	One of it is the possibility that we're already into the greenhouse effect, and that's what's causing a lot of the local weather and climate dreams that are beginning to take place.
	Do you believe that?
	were the case, then we're going to have to convert from a fossil fuel economy, energy
	economy worldwide. You know, we have tripled our oil consumption since 1975 when I worked
	with Mo Udall, and that's not good for the earth. And I think most of us at some level
	realize that. So in a way it forces the issue of economics, politics, and all sorts of things.
	It's like a Pandora's box.
	It's like the UFO question, and that's why I studied the two questions in my new book in parallel, because I see the two are very related, not only in terms of technology, but in terms of the influence on us philosophically, economically, spiritually, and so forth.
	Alright, alright.
	Let's try to get one more in here.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Bob in Wichita.
	In Wichita, yes Bob.
	When I was in California, Bruce DuPont was on the radio on KPFK with Roy of Hollywood, and I got to talk to Bruce, and I sent for the literature, which cost $20 at that time, and I'm fairly Well, first, in reading and all that stuff, and some comments, and I could not decipher what the text was supposed to mean.
	Part of that is, I guess, the problem of science and translating the concept of science to the general public.
	I do everything I can, and I know you do too, Art, to interpret scientific information so it's understandable to the layperson.
	Well, all right, but I asked you earlier to give us an explanation of how this works, and you did to some degree, but I didn't quite understand still how How do we get around the second law of thermodynamics?
	The way to get around it is, first of all, think of the system as a larger system, and that there's a concept here than anything involved in the laws of thermodynamics.
	And then that makes it not a law, but a law under only certain circumstances.
	And that includes equilibrium, thermodynamic equilibrium, which is a condition which simply doesn't apply to the universe as a whole.
	Well, that makes it more like a regulation than a law.
	Yeah, it's a regulation under a limited set of circumstances.
	It's a limiting case of reality, just like Newton's laws are a limiting case of reality.
	And so, yeah, it applies over a range of circumstances here on the Earth, but it doesn't hold the whole universe in its grip.
	And a number of Nobel laureates have pointed that out, the explication of that second law.
	So it's no big deal.
	It's just that we haven't been aware of this energy source primarily because it behaves the same in all directions and the same at all points.
	So it's very similar to the problem of trying to weigh a beaker of water underneath the surface of the ocean.
	There's a good parallel.
	That's a very good parallel.
	Doctors, stand by.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	Relax.
	You've got about seven minutes.
	My guest is Dr. Brian O'Leary.
	From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
	Any numbers for us to learn more about susceptibility?
	I'm sorry, I didn't catch your question.
	I think he's asking about remote viewing, is that correct?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, he's wondering if you've got any information or contact numbers Off the cuff, no.
	My books do go into it, and I do have a bibliography and a set of references in all of my books, in my trilogy of books, and I do talk about remote viewing in there.
	Besides that, I think that I would check in with people like Ingo Swann.
	Okay.
	One more question, if that's okay.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	And I listen to your program a lot.
	First of all, you've got excellent taste in music.
	And a couple of years ago, maybe about ten years ago, I wrote a letter to NASA telling them that I had discovered a solar system between the Milky Way and Andromeda.
	And I told them what was there, how many planets were in that solar system.
	Five years later, they write to me and tell me that they have found them.
	But my thing, what I got from my school was they were pretty upset with me because I went without their permission to write these letters.
	All right.
	I don't know what to make out of all that.
	Well, I think anybody with new ideas, whether they turn out to be proven or not, or let's say corroborated by others, and that's part of the scientific method, by the way, is that if somebody has an idea and it's confirmed by somebody else, then that becomes very powerful.
	And that's why when I describe what I consider to be a truth, I really mean it.
	It has plenty of evidence from many, many different directions, just like in the UFO phenomenon.
	I would say just go with the idea and present it to various people and if it's corroborated.
	But any authority figure that tries to put you down, I wouldn't let that get in my way.
	I haven't so far.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	Going once, flies gone.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art Bell.
	Great show.
	Thank you.
	Just one question for your guest or comment.
	The industry would be really happy to have a free energy device because it would help reduce their costs quite significantly.
	And although I can see the utility industry going against that, there's many, many industries that would be in favor of it.
	For example, the automobile industry, and they just could use a lot of energy.
	Maybe you could comment.
	I'll hang up.
	Alright, thank you.
	Yeah, it's the eternal question.
	I don't understand it either.
	Well, while you understand there are a lot of energy producing industries that would probably come and run you off the road and make you go over a cliff or something if you really had something, there are enough other industries and people with money and entrepreneurs and people who want to get rich that somehow these devices would make it.
	Yes, well, I'm very optimistic about this start.
	I think that they will, and I think that they will be made in Japan.
	I would love this country to wake up.
	Why not here?
	Because, for whatever reason, and this has been going on, as we know, for a number of years, and it's getting worse and worse as time goes on.
	And, you know, we began the show, Art, with talking about the good old Apollo days, when we had goals and visions, and we united in common purpose.
	And right now we have two very big cosmic questions that are on our platter.
	One is the question of extraterrestrial or interdimensional intelligence.
	And the other is the question of supplanting our polluting energy infrastructure and creating a clean Earth through the use of some of these new energy technologies.
	By the way, do you have a favorite of the two theories?
	These beings, assuming for the sake of our discussion they exist.
	Well, I think it's both.
	I think it's both of the above.
	It seems like there's enough information that that is so.
	through space? Well I think it's both I think it's both of the above it seems like there's
	enough information that that it's so and I think that also inter-dimensionality is a concept which
	is getting more and more popular among even mainstream physicists who are positing that that
	is absolutely necessary to unify the known physical laws but then put on top of that the
	phenomena of consciousness and psychokinesis and so forth and then we're really are coming up with
	a unified field theory that that makes sense and so I think that that's part of what I'm very
	excited about is unifying all the sciences.
	All right, Doctor.
	Here's the facts.
	Art, of course this is why the Feds raided and sanitized the home and lab of Tesla.
	He was probably 50 years ahead of everybody else in developing free energy, a thousand years ahead of where the government and energy companies wanted him to be.
	You agree?
	Doctor?
	Yeah, well, the Tesla question was, I mean, the history of Tesla consumes many books.
	I'm not a Tesla scholar, so once again, I don't want to claim any special knowledge about this, but it's pretty obvious that Tesla was developing some technologies that were way out there,
	including free energy.
	And J.P. Morgan, who funded him, owned all the copper mines around.
	And at that point, Morgan was running ahead with Edison's grid system,
	which ironically was based on Tesla's AC, or alternating current invention.
	So it's kind of a long story, a long history, but Tesla was pretty suppressed, basically.
	And that's what has happened to all the inventors since then.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Ohio.
	Yes, sir.
	And the question I had was, Has he met Dennis Lee, and has he had any experience with any of his prototypes?
	Dennis Lee?
	Yes, I have met Dennis a couple of times.
	Actually, I met him in Las Vegas, of all places, about three weeks ago at the Whole Life Expo there.
	He was also speaking there.
	And he's a good man, and he's all part of this overall effort to create energy sources that make a lot of sense ecologically for the Earth in the long run.
	So he's one of the many people involved in this.
	Have you seen any of his prototypes?
	No, I haven't personally visited him or seen his prototypes.
	No, I have visited Troy Reed in Oklahoma and a number of other American inventors, some of whom did not want to be reported in my book at all, which initially surprised me.
	But then I later discovered, yes, if anybody wants to be discreet in this country, that's the way you have to be.
	And that's one of the reasons why Japan is moving ahead of us.
	Now I'm told that the government is very active in discouraging these free energy devices.
	I'm even told that people have been been put in jail like Dennis Lee and people have been sabotaged.
	There have been innumerable suppression tactics and techniques used against many of these people.
	And it's very sad. A lot of the brightest and best inventors have become expatriated
	because they found no atmosphere conducive to doing research here.
	For example, Bruce De Palma, the inventor of the end machine, former MIT faculty member and free energy inventor, is now in New Zealand.
	He had to leave the country, pretty much, because there really was no support for his work here.
	There are a number of other people, Pons and Fleshman, who developed cold fusion at the University of Utah in 1989.
	They're now in the south of France.
	Uh, doing their research, being funded by a Japanese consortium.
	Well, that's absolutely depressing.
	As an American, I find that depressing.
	Yes, and that's why I think a show like this is a great way to start to get the word out and say, hey, we've been asleep.
	And yes, there have been media blackouts on this.
	I know that, and many of the rest of us do, too, but we have to network and get this into the system.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Yeah, this is Fritz from Phoenix.
	Hi, Fritz.
	Doctor, do you recall back in September 89, there was a tremendous UFO landing in Voronezh in Russia?
	Back there in September on a playground where the children saw the UFO land and the evidence came out.
	Yeah, I read the news reports.
	I haven't done any detailed investigation of that incident.
	And, of course, the whole eastern block of UFO researchers went over there to check it out.
	And when the media asked the researchers how they can be so certain it was a UFO landing, the answer was, yes, we did it with bi-location.
	So, bi-location is the Russian word for Yeah, that's a very good point, and I noticed that in the news clipping, and indeed, yes, the Eastern Bloc countries have been doing research on these kinds of things for a lot longer.
	On the other hand, there's so much leapfrogging going on in research in general, in the areas of consciousness, not only remote viewing, but things like the power of prayer, or of being able to Being able to amplify mind over matter effects, such as Bob John discovered at Princeton, to be much larger.
	There was a group called Fendrift that came up with some results that were very great.
	In other words, the ultimate technology from all of this is being able to create our own material reality.
	Let me ask this question, Doctor.
	Do you think, ultimately, With the Earth's problems, ecologically and so forth, that our answer will come from the hard sciences, or do you think it will come from the parapsychological world?
	How about that?
	Well, I think it's certainly not the hard sciences such as we know them and have limited them.
	Although there are some hard scientists now that are going out on a limb, I'm one of them.
	It's quite a journey.
	It's a bridging journey.
	So I think it's both of the above.
	I think that the UFO phenomenon is leading to the unraveling of the greatest mystery of our time.
	And I also, I don't want to divert, but I also remind me, Art, that I want to share with you some up-to-date information about what's called the Starlight Coalition, which is a group that's attempting to get the government to release UFO information ASAP.
	Well, it would sure be fun to have you and Dr. Sagan on the same show.
	Oh yeah, that would be most welcome!
	Would you enjoy that?
	Yeah, I'd be very pleased to.
	I don't know whether he would be.
	It'd be a fiery session.
	That should be fun.
	Anyway, you said the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Yes, good evening, Eric.
	This is Rick from Springfield, Illinois, and I have to agree with your guess.
	I think your show is very important.
	I followed you from three states in the last six months, and I've been able to catch you
	wherever I've moved from.
	Thank you.
	You've been talking about a paradigm shift and I think that Richard Hoagland is working on an incredible paradigm shift.
	He's trying to get a privately planned mission to go to the moon, an unmanned mission to the moon.
	His theories are about that the objects on the moon were to be, you know, in people's living rooms on pay-per-view.
	That would create a paradigm shift, and I was just wondering what your thoughts are on that.
	Alright, Doctor?
	Yeah, I would say that Hoagland's scenario is one of many, many parallel scenarios, any one of which might trigger the others.
	All right.
	That's so exciting about our time.
	All right.
	And I don't know whether I necessarily support that as the initial triggering event, but we are in for a paradigm shift, and I, boy, my trilogy of books amply describe that.
	The evidence is just so abundant.
	I think that's the good news.
	The bad news is that this chaotic transitional period It's very queasy.
	It's almost like we inhabit these two realities at once.
	All right.
	Hold it right there for a moment.
	We'll be right back to you.
	For several months now, we have been literally preaching to Dr. O'Leary.
	Back to the phone lines for a second.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	Goodbye, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary, hello.
	Yes, I'm calling from San Diego.
	San Diego, yes sir.
	Yes, can you expand on the themes of what Neil Armstrong spoke about a few years back about the universe?
	And can you tell us about the new comet?
	I would, well, we already asked about the comet, but with regard to Neil Armstrong, Dr. O'Leary, he has made so many statements What do you make of Neil Armstrong?
	I don't know.
	I didn't know Neil too well in the program, to be honest with you.
	that will boggle our mind and he said these kind of things at the White House
	from an astronaut who's been there. What do you make of Neil Armstrong? I don't
	know I didn't know Neil too well in the program to be honest with you and I Art
	and I did know Buzz Aldrin and Buzz you know it's there's a question there I
	The only thing that I can say is that a number of us recently, and I want to give you some up-to-date news that's more than just a quote from Armstrong, which I think is very related to this, and I did want to talk about this, it's really important, is that a number of us have founded and formed what's called the Starlight Coalition.
	Uh, and also a congressional initiative.
	And the idea is to, to, um, uh, bring forward those credible witnesses, whether they be astronauts, uh, former military or current military and intelligence people who have had UFO experiences or eyewitnessed events.
	And what we would like to do is to urge the President, well we have done already, to issue an executive order granting immunity against prosecution for violating secrecy oaths.
	Oh boy, is that ever a good idea?
	We're at the bottom of the hour so hang tight, we'll come back and talk about exactly that.
	My guest is Dr. Brian O'Leary.
	Astronaut Scientist.
	He'll be back with us.
	You mentioned Buzz Aldrin.
	You got to speak to some astronauts.
	You were at least within the program.
	There must have been a time when you guys went out and had a few martinis, if not eight.
	And was there ever a time that one of them who had been there told you anything about seeing things that they would not otherwise talk about?
	Doctor?
	Are you there?
	Oh!
	The doctor seems not to be there.
	Well, it's an interesting point to have lost him, isn't it?
	Doctor, are you there?
	Well, as usual, it looks like we've lost the doctor.
	So, we're going to have to try to get him back on the line.
	Be patient, everybody.
	This is a fairly normal occurrence.
	Uh, every now and then, um, the phone company simply dumps us, and I don't know what causes that.
	I have no way of knowing what causes that, but we'll try to get him back.
	Usually it's when we're, uh, ready to talk about something very critical like this.
	makes one a little suspicious.
	It's Christmas time from Kusk.
	G.M.H.
	Remember, you get a signed copy of my book at Kusk G.M.X.
	We're just about there.
	We'll take care of the rest of the commercial messaging right now.
	Back to Maui, Hawaii, I trust.
	Doctor, are you there?
	Yes, I am, Art.
	I'm glad to be back.
	Before we get back into where you were headed, you were in the Apollo program.
	There had to have been times when you and Buzz Aldrin, or you and any other astronaut who did make it into space, got to sit down and have a few martinis or ten together.
	Did they ever?
	Well, it didn't happen to me.
	I wish it had, of course.
	But in a way, maybe it's good because it means I'm being just totally honest that there really is nothing that I know that they told me.
	It's interesting because, you know, I mentioned just before the break that this group called the Starlight Coalition, which was convened by Lawrence Rockefeller and Stephen Greer, Apollo 14 astronaut Ed Mitchell, And a number of other people, and the committee asked me on their behalf to write the astronauts that I knew, and to ask them, just point blank, directly, in a friendly way, did you see anything?
	Yes.
	And so far I have 10 out of 10 very stern no answers.
	Well, that's not unexpected.
	And it doesn't mean that... My guess, I'll give you a guess, is that some people probably saw something and some didn't.
	And the ones that didn't weren't debriefed, and they're still probably in denial, as scientists, as most scientists are, about the whole UFO phenomenon.
	Because of cultural things.
	Culturally, we're so diversified, it's really amazing.
	All right, here's one from Los Angeles, and the same from San Francisco.
	They're both the same.
	Larry, listening to KSVO in San Francisco, and Tom from L.A.
	wants to know, Art, please, quit pussyfooting around.
	There are two obvious questions I'd like answered about this free energy thing, and I'm willing to buy the books to find out.
	One, where can I get the blueprints for one of these things?
	Two, where can I see one working?
	Okay, well, yeah, the book does give several names of several organizations that are taking care of these things.
	I can give you a number.
	It's in Colorado.
	It's called the International Association for New Science.
	And we're planning a symposium April 27th to 29th.
	There are some actual devices demonstrated and people coming to present their results.
	Alright, what is that number please?
	It's area code 97048236.
	3-7-3-1, and that's where you can see them actually demonstrated.
	Well, it's an organization called the International Association for New Science.
	It's an organization that I co-founded.
	And it's out of Fort Collins, Colorado.
	And we will be hosting this meeting in Denver, April 27th to 29th.
	Okay.
	And that would be a great meeting to come to.
	And the other thing is to just, yes, buy my books because they give you all the information you need to go to the resources that you need to get into this field more in depth.
	All right.
	And the number to buy your book again is 1-800- Yes, 1-800-842-8338.
	That's 1-800-842-8338.
	And I'll say that again, it's 1-800-842-8338.
	Miracle in the Void is the latest of my new science trilogy and that's available for $25
	post-paid if you call that number and you'll get it by Christmas.
	Or the whole trilogy of books, my new science trilogy, which includes my other books, Exploring Inner and Outer Space, The Second Coming of Science, and Miracle in the Void, which is really a compilation of ten years of I'm curious about something, Doctor.
	and scientific journeys in layman's language to all of these realms of UFOdom and based
	on Mars and crop circles and...
	I'm curious about something, Doctor.
	If I were to go to NASA and I were to ask NASA about Dr. O'Leary, who's over on Maui,
	what do you think NASA would say?
	Oh, yeah, I'm sure they'd make snide remarks, but it doesn't really matter anymore because
	I see NASA as kind of a decadent bureaucracy working on problems that are relatively trivial
	compared to what we need to do to save this planet.
	In other words, you see them about the same way Richard Hoagland does.
	East of the Rockies?
	Pretty much, yeah.
	I agree with him in that respect, yes.
	Okay, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Yes, this is Doug in Spring Valley and I have two questions and a comment.
	Yes.
	Okay, two questions.
	Is this power system related to the Tesla system that was supposedly wireless power transmission?
	Okay, go ahead.
	Yeah, well that's basically true and Tesla came up with one design and there have been just literally hundreds of different designs of the kinds of systems that can pluck this energy out of the vacuum.
	So some of it is transmission, that was in Tesla's time.
	But now I think we need to bring the context up to date and talk about it in terms of contemporary inventions that are coming along.
	And that includes solid state devices, cold fusion devices, rotating magnet devices, and certain Tesla devices.
	Will these devices be encumbered by patents, or will it be possible, since they've been tried and tested around the world, that it'll be more of an open market?
	Good question.
	Very good question.
	Will they be encumbered?
	It's protected by the patent system, but unfortunately the patent system has been very biased against these kinds of developments in this country, so it's been extremely difficult To successfully consummate a patent in this field, in this country, and not run the risk of either having your device confiscated by the Department of Defense, such as what happened with Adam Trombley, or to have the patent law make it such that a big boy could buy you out, make a minor modification, and then run with the money.
	That's part of what's happening here.
	There's a lot of greed and competitiveness And that's bottling up the system.
	It's like there's a big log jam here.
	All right.
	Bringing forward free energy, whereas Japan is moving right ahead with it.
	Yeah, that's a good and bad answer.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Yes, doctor.
	Calling from Vancouver, Washington.
	Hi.
	Good evening.
	I just wanted to know whether this free energy is the same type of energy that was talked about as I believe it is, and that's an excellent question because I work with Chi or Ki, an Aikido, the Japanese call it Ki.
	Aikido is a wonderful technique to learn how to do things like bend metal, bend spoons and that sort of thing, and I even teach that in workshops.
	That's a great question because in a way that's the lead in between free energy and consciousness because free energy or zero point energy I think what's happening is that our human bodies can interact with the zero point field to produce what we call life energy or key energy and of course that's been directly measured in the laboratory and it's well established not only in the Chinese and Japanese traditions But it's actually a provable, scientific, psychokinetic reality.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	This is Dave in Illinois.
	Hi, Dave.
	Hi.
	You did an interview roughly a month ago with Wayne Green.
	That's right.
	And he seems to publicize a lot of these things.
	I was wondering if there was any connection between your guest tonight and Wayne.
	Well, do you know of Wayne Green?
	Yes, I know of him, and we exchange our magazines, and I respect, or not magazines, my books for his magazine and his books, and I respect his work a lot.
	I think that we're all like pioneers, sometimes lonely, attempting to bring in a new paradigm, because, boy, do we ever need it.
	We need it for the Earth.
	As I said before, you know, I think Wayne's ideas are truly revolutionary and a number of other people.
	The government, such as it is now, is not really helping us move into this new era.
	It needs vision and needs leadership and we, at the very least in terms of science and technology, need a free energy research and development laboratory.
	Well, we are truly rudderless in the... What was it they had with Bush, President Bush, the vision thing?
	Do the wild thing.
	It's 702-727-1295.
	Okay, first time caller line.
	You're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	How you doing?
	I'm doing fine.
	All right.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Minneapolis.
	Okay.
	I talked to you a couple weeks back when we did those compass readings.
	Yes.
	The reason I'm calling is because I heard something disturbing from a friend of mine today.
	He has a A close connection to someone who's part of the group that just got laid off from the Area 51.
	Yes.
	Location down there.
	Yes.
	And what he told me is that this person was so disturbed at what was going on and being laid off and everything that they shared some bits of information with him.
	And what he told me was that they were not doing anything involving UFOs or with aliens, that they had no aliens down there.
	And what is going on there is for the last 20 years they've been genetically altering human beings.
	I.G.
	pilots.
	Okay, hold on a moment, sir.
	That is an interesting point.
	This whole business about genetics.
	I assume, Dr. O'Leary, that you have seen the purported alien autopsy.
	Yes, yes I have.
	Could that, rather than being a space creature, be a genetically altered creature, do you suppose?
	That's a possibility.
	I certainly wouldn't eliminate that by any means.
	You know, we're really dealing with a very exotic phenomenon here, and obviously if you start to get into the data, the abduction data and so forth, you come up with A very strong thread, common thread of genetic engineering that we as a species may have been genetically engineered.
	Now, this seems to violate our scientific, materialistic, and religious worldviews, but it seems to make sense.
	And it could be consistent with our spiritual and scientific tradition if we just hypothesize that we have a soul.
	And that that soul is what's really important and that we embody in these bodies which are physically, just basically genetically engineered.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello.
	Yes, I'd like to ask Dr. O'Leary if there's any connection with free energy and molecular nanotechnology.
	How are the two connected?
	All right, where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Joshua Tree.
	Joshua Tree, all right.
	In California, nanotechnology, does that have application to the free energy It might.
	I'm somewhat familiar with Eric Drexler's work and I respect him as a colleague and a person that I had worked with in the past who has proposed nanotechnology.
	I think that that's just another way of saying that these are technologies based on very minuscule scales and indeed free energy has to do with interactions with this zero point field which is really the What the 19th century physicists call the ether, or that which precedes the manifestation of matter and energy,
	And there have been a lot of words used for this.
	Nanotechnology, I'm sure, would come into play with this, just like quantum theory.
	Quantum physics now, I think, is going to be useful in pointing out that, yes, not only is the zero-point field real, but the quantum theory itself and some of the paradoxes within it can be reconciled.
	And you ask an excellent question, and that's worth researching.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, without much time, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	Yes, Bakersfield.
	Hi, Art, I just wanted to ask, did you get my tape in the mail?
	I did, yes.
	I sent it from Bakersfield, yes.
	Yes, thank you very much.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary.
	Hello?
	Hello, where are you?
	I'm in Lexington.
	Lexington, Kentucky.
	Do you have a question?
	Do you have a question there, hun?
	I'm turning down my radio.
	Well, I was thinking about the nanotechnology thing.
	Yes?
	And I was thinking...
	Well, when are they going to head that out?
	Doctor, the question is, when will nanotechnology start to become a physical reality?
	Do you have any thoughts on that?
	Well, again, I'm not an expert in this field, but my guess is that all of these technologies that are being discussed will fuse into a whole new science that will include nanotechnology, Free energy, the interaction of consciousness with the environment so that we can create our own realities and interdimensionality.
	These are all things that are knocking on our door.
	And so it's more than just one area.
	These are all areas that I think will come together to form a new science just as we come into the new millennium.
	All right.
	Maybe time for one quick one.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. O'Leary in Maui.
	Hi.
	Love to talk to you.
	This has been the most awesome week And Dr. O'Leary just topped it off.
	I cannot even believe it.
	This is Jack calling from Redding.
	Redding.
	Alright, Jack.
	Thank you, Jack.
	No problem.
	All right, Jack, I guess that's it.
	Just a compliment.
	Very nice.
	Doctor, we are way out of time.
	I'm going to give the number to get your book, your latest book, of course, Miracle in the Void, and your other materials.
	1-800-THANK-YOU, and good night, Doctor.
	That's Dr. Brian O'Leary, astronaut scientist with a very long academic set of credentials.
	And all I can say to Lone Eagle is, you should be ashamed of yourself, Lone Eagle, after hearing all of this.
	I did not hear a lot of establishment there, and I just don't know how Lone Eagle did.
	That refers to an earlier fax.

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