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Oct. 29, 1995 - Art Bell

01:42:30

Dreamland with Art Bell - Black Helicopters - Ghost Investigators - Dave Ester and Sharon GIll

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	Sea Grain Company.
	And back now to Philadelphia we go, and to Linda Howe.
	Linda Howe, an investigative journalist.
	Let's see if I can get this right.
	An investigative journalist.
	I think, for the sake of brevity, we'll hold it to that.
	Looking into crop circles, animal mutilations, that sort of thing.
	Right, Linda?
	That's right.
	And happy Halloween to you and all of our new affiliates and everyone who's out there.
	Remember last week I interviewed Lassen County, California brand inspector J.D.
	Hemphill about the two cattle mutilations found on Susanville, California ranch October 16th.
	Yes.
	And Susanville is in Northeastern California, about halfway between Alturas and Reno, Nevada, where we've had so many UFO reports and strange sound reports and all kinds of things for the last two or three years.
	Well, since my report last Sunday, I have received communications from two different residents who have noticed unusual black helicopter activity after the mutilations.
	And some as recently as this past Friday.
	One eyewitness account is from Phil Leroy, a large equipment operator who lives in Red Forth, California, which is about 100 miles west of Susanville.
	Three nights after the two mutilated cows were found in Susanville, Mr. Leroy was out walking his dogs around midnight.
	The dogs suddenly had a peculiar reaction to something that Mr. Leroy could not see.
	And all of a sudden, both of them, the hair stands up on the back of their neck and they start growling and just barking under their breath.
	I call it under their breath.
	You know, they're not barking out loud.
	I'm trying to figure out what the heck's going on because I thought maybe there was some coyotes out here because we've got a coyote pack around the creek areas.
	So I'm sitting there and I can see something over, I don't know, it's 500, 600 yards.
	From where I'm at.
	And it's a dark night.
	In other words, there's no full moon or anything.
	It's just animate light in the area.
	And I can see something moving up and down a little bit over there.
	Meaning like a light?
	No, there was no light.
	This was just a dark spot moving up and down.
	A dark spot meaning it was darker than the night sky?
	Right.
	And I go, what?
	So my eyes are becoming more accustomed to being outside.
	And I could see that it was what looked to be a helicopter.
	And the two, actually the three of them all told, two of them split off.
	One hung over here in the area that I first saw.
	They flew The two of them flew off, they took off, they split off the pod, or the group.
	Of three.
	The group of three they split off, and they came across the field between my house and another house, which is about six, seven hundred feet between them.
	There's power lines that run down from it.
	They just cleared the power lines.
	Now, this is what is the weird part.
	They passed over me.
	They were less than 250 feet away, I would say.
	Or approximately, I'd say approximately 250 feet away.
	Two helicopters.
	Large helicopters.
	Didn't make a sound other than... I kicked up a gust of air.
	And my dogs went nuts.
	What did the dogs do?
	They're just growling.
	When the helicopters got right overhead, they spooked and ran back to the house.
	Have you ever seen your dogs do that to anything in the air before?
	No.
	And what was your own gut reaction to this?
	Something weird.
	Something ain't right here.
	Because I know enough about helicopters, I know that any helicopter operated And this airspace has a 500 foot ceiling limit.
	And how low were these?
	50 feet off the deck.
	So they were 50 feet high and only 250 feet out from you and you still could hear nothing but a whisper?
	Nothing but a whisper.
	There were no lights.
	There were no beacons.
	There was no marking on Federal law says they have to have safety beacons.
	They have to have a port, starboard lights, and a safety strobe.
	These had nothing?
	These had nothing.
	Was the shape of this particular helicopter recognizable to you in any way?
	No.
	In fact, I've got a book right here that I've been going over.
	It's an aircraft identification book.
	Mm-hmm.
	And it has every known air vehicle in it.
	I know that they weren't Cobras.
	I know they weren't Apaches.
	I know they weren't Hobacks, which is a Russian.
	Hobacks.
	Yeah, I've been going over these silhouettes here, trying to figure out, you know, if any of them were even close.
	Mm-hmm.
	If not.
	By you?
	Did you notice anything change as they went past you?
	And did you watch them until they disappeared or what happened?
	They went past.
	They went over my head.
	They went south for about 150, 200 yards.
	Stopped in midair.
	I went to a hover position, a hover pattern.
	And where they hovered, do you know what's there?
	Cattle.
	There's only a few head down in that pasture.
	bird's nose down and took off south at a high rate of speed.
	At the same time I turned and looked back toward the mound and the other one
	was moving in the same direction. And where they hovered, do you know what's there?
	Cattle. There's only a few head down in that pasture. It's definitely cattle. Mm-hmm.
	Where they were hovering over here behind us, behind me.
	There's another cattle ranch over there, I don't know if he's got any of his cattle down yet, or where they're located at.
	But the area that they were first spotted in is, they run cattle out there on pasture.
	And Art, where the two black silent helicopters hovered for 45 seconds, It was over cattle owned by the same family who found the two mutilated cows at their Susanville pasture three days before on October 16th.
	This man watched these three air vehicles on October 19th.
	If the helicopters are U.S.
	government, they might be from Fort Bragg further west on the ocean, but why would they fly 50 feet off the ground and hover over cattle And which helicopter design can now be 50 feet above someone and only make a whisper?
	Well, I know there have been advances in that technology.
	The enduring question for me is, why our government, which could get all the cattle it needs, would be interested.
	I understand an extraterrestrial connection.
	That there could be that, or that they might go down to a farmer's land and snatch up cattle or mutilate them, but I just don't understand why our government would.
	That's right, and what is interesting to me, as a journalist and an investigator of the animal mutilation phenomenon over the last 15 years, is when you go back into old newspaper records, all the way back into the late 60s, into the early 70s and on, There has been an association, an eyewitness association about dark, silent, always the term is used, silent helicopters in the air above pastures where animals have been found mutilated.
	These dark, silent helicopters turn up.
	That has been such a chronic association throughout these almost 40 years now that the worldwide animal mutilation phenomenon has been reported that one sheriff in Colorado told me when I was working on the documentary A Strange Harvest that he and others in law enforcement had come to the conclusion that they were dealing with, he called it, creatures not from this planet and that He speculated that maybe these dark, silent helicopters that in some cases dissolved into clouds even, were some kind of camouflage being used by a non-human intelligence.
	Now, this man is not trying to say that.
	He told me he thought that this was, that these acted certainly like helicopters, but he could not find a design anywhere that matched these particular ones.
	Well, if you'll excuse the expression, maybe these are morphine machines.
	Morphine machines!
	Yeah, well, if they are morphing machines, if there's anybody out there who knows any
	group or agency or industry in this country or others that can make such morphing helicopters,
	I would sure appreciate a call to my office tomorrow at area code 215-491-9840, or you
	can write me at post office box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
	That's Box 538, Huntingdon, H-U-N-T-I-N-G, D as in dog, O-N, Valley, P-A, Zip Code 19006.
	My fax number is area code 215-423-9000.
	Code 215.4.
	And I would really genuinely like to hear anonymously off the record or anyone on the record who might have any information about this strange helicopter activity in California or any place else and how it might link to the animal mutilations.
	And for Twinland listeners interested in the books and documentary productions that I have done on these various kinds of phenomena, I now have a toll-free number, 800-707-9993.
	That's 800-707-9993.
	All right.
	Now, very quickly, Linda, I've got something I want you to hear.
	That's 800-707-9993.
	Alright, now, very quickly, Linda, I've got something I want you to hear.
	Sure.
	Alright?
	I believe that I've got it cued up correctly.
	If not, we'll find out shortly.
	Um, after Linda Howe's, uh, chilling Bigfoot sound, which I have had great deals of fun with, um, during this last week, a second, uh, Bigfoot scream was submitted to me.
	And it comes, of course, across the telephone.
	We're waiting for the, uh, tape.
	Uh, as Linda's did, I might add.
	But I thought this one also quite chilling and a good precursor to what we're doing, and I wanted to get Linda's reaction.
	So here it is, Bigfoot number two.
	🎵BIGFOOT ROARS🎵 There it was.
	What did you think of that one, Linda?
	Where is that one supposed to be from?
	Well, according to the caller, many years ago he taped it from some sort of documentary on Bigfoot.
	But it was, I thought, good.
	Well, it's interesting in the sense that it has a Kind of an odd, sustained quality, but it is very different than that very, very high-pitched sound of the one recorded up in Snohomish.
	Either way, either one of them, I would like to keep quite a bit of distance.
	Well, I have been getting even more extraordinary Bigfoot encounter reports, and there's one that I will try to share on Dreamland in the next couple of weeks that I think will be quite fascinating.
	Excellent.
	Linda, we appreciate your report, as always.
	Thank you.
	You're a doll, and we'll see you again next week.
	Okay.
	Happy Halloween!
	Uh-huh.
	Take care.
	That is probably the nation's foremost investigator in crop circles, animal mutilations, that sort of thing.
	Now, coming up next, Dave Esther, Sharon Gill, Uh, co-writers of Twilight Visitors.
	It is very nearly, as you well know, Halloween.
	And it is the time for ghost stories now.
	As many of you who have listened through the years are aware, my attitude about ghosts is a serious one.
	Because I do think they exist.
	And I think it is one avenue of exploration With regard to whether life after death exists.
	It's why we look into it.
	In a moment, Dave Esther and Sharon Gill.
	If you enjoyed Dreamlands weekly news segments by Linda Moulton Howe,
	which features updates about mysterious phenomena, then you might want to know more about her books and
	documentaries.
	Linda Howe is an Emmy Award-winning television producer, writer, and researcher of Earth mysteries linked to non-human intelligences.
	Her books and videos provide scientific data and first-hand eyewitnesses.
	Linda Moulton Howe's two books, An Alien Harvest and Glimpses of Other Realities, are acclaimed for their quality, depth, photographs and drawings.
	If you are interested in learning more about the mysterious animal mutilations, crop circles, UFO sightings, the human abduction syndrome, and government knowledge about these worldwide phenomena, you will enjoy these books and videos available directly from LMH Productions.
	You can dial 1-800-707-9993 to order.
	1-800-707-9993 to order.
	That's 1-800-707-9993.
	Now, Dave Esther and Sharon Gill, apparently, one of the wire services, one of the major ones,
	we'll find out here in a second, picked up a story about them calling them ghost hunters,
	ghost writers, ghosts, well, I guess just people with a general interest in ghosts.
	And then ABC News Nightline, normally devoted to hard news, Apparently invited them on the program, and they did a show there on ghosts.
	Their book is called Twilight Visitors, and let us see if we can connect with them both a feat.
	Let's try it.
	Dave and Sharon, are you there?
	Yeah, we are.
	Okay, good.
	You're located someplace up in Oregon.
	St.
	Helens.
	St.
	Helens.
	What in the world got you two started on ghosts?
	Uh, when we moved to Seaside, Oregon, from the Pacific Coast, we moved into a house that was haunted.
	And after being there for a couple years, we decided that... Dave, I'm gonna have to ask you to get good and close to the phone and speak up good and loud.
	Alright.
	Uh, that'll help a lot.
	Very good.
	Okay, good.
	So you moved into a haunted house.
	Yes.
	I mean, how do you know your house is haunted?
	The first night we were there we were unloading the van and moving boxes into the house and
	we moved in a short-wave radio and placed it on top of a file cabinet in the den. The
	radio wasn't plugged in and there were no batteries in it.
	Later that evening we got ready to retire, it was close to midnight and all of a
	sudden we started hearing music coming from the den. A waltzing Matilda. And it played like
	12 or 13 times. And we went in and it was coming from the short-wave radio but it was
	still unplugged and there were no batteries in it.
	Bad sign.
	It was just the beginning.
	Waltzing Matilda, huh?
	Yes.
	Interesting.
	See, what I've always wondered about, Dave, now maybe you had an interest in ghosts before this, or was this the beginning of the interest?
	This was probably really the beginning.
	I grew up in a house that was haunted as a child.
	An old farmhouse that you could hear somebody walking up and down the stairs.
	But you really didn't think much of that.
	And then over the years nothing has really happened until we moved to Seaside and that's
	when really the lid came off the bucket.
	Okay, well I take it it's going to probably worsen from here, waltzing Matilda even out
	of a dead radio.
	No, it gets bad.
	But you know, now what I've always wondered about since I've got a couple of real life
	characters who have gone through this I want to ask.
	In Poltergeist, in all of these other movies, nearly the worst has got to occur before people pack up and take off.
	Now, as for me, I guarantee you, Uh, ghosts in my house, first sign, maybe I put it off to a bit of bad digestion or something.
	Second sign, I'm out of there.
	So, you guys obviously didn't take off.
	Now I know you buy a house, you've got an obligation, but still in all, uh, to have ghosts in your house seems to me would be something that would cause you to put up a for sale sign and go somewhere else.
	Well, not really, if, you know, if the energy that you pick up from the ghosts Are positive.
	You don't feel threatened.
	I think that's probably the key right there.
	We never felt threatened in our home.
	Well, that's important.
	Not at all.
	We would watch to see what was going to happen next.
	The noises would occur every night in the basement.
	We would go down the next day to see what had been moved.
	It sounded like the place was falling apart at night.
	In the morning, there was nothing changed.
	And, uh, we never felt intimidated.
	Uh, it was more like a game to see what would happen next.
	And these are the kinds of stories that we've encountered over the last two years.
	Well, again, no offense, but in every movie I've ever seen, the basement is not the source of good things.
	Yeah, that's a Hollywood version.
	And no disrespect for the stories that Brad Sanger has collected over the years, you know, but the, it appears the ghosts that we've encountered have all been happy ghosts.
	Well, that's pretty much, actually, that's fairly much the case with Brad Steiger.
	He takes the lighter view of things.
	Though, you wouldn't go as far as to say all apparitions, all ghosts, are good.
	No.
	Definitely not.
	The ones that we have encountered have all been of a positive nature.
	So positive are that they're like members of people's families.
	When we go in to investigate something, we have been asked right off if we're there to exercise, because they don't want the entity disturbed.
	They want it left alone.
	That's interesting.
	First of all, I don't even understand the concept of a happy ghost.
	The way my idea of the spirit world is structured, generally when ghosts have appeared, It has been because of some trauma.
	Somebody has been murdered, somebody has died prematurely, somebody has died with everlasting love, very strong love at a very important moment.
	In other words, spirits seem to be trapped on earth not for happy reasons.
	So, what then are you dealing with?
	Well, I think the ghosts that you're talking about that are trapped here, they may not be happy in that sense.
	But they are not angry ghosts.
	They are lost, confused, have unresolved issues that they're attempting to resolve.
	And in the process, they enjoy pranks.
	Poltergeists.
	Poltergeists.
	The footsteps in the hallway, the cupboards that open and close, the dishes that move around.
	You put your keys down and they're gone.
	You know, the dope prank that you would expect of a poltergeist.
	Spirits with too much time on their hands.
	They seem to be content where they are, as are the people they're with.
	Ah, that's very odd.
	Well, I know what you've done for your book is to collect a grand number of true ghost stories, or said to be true.
	And I guess the thing to do would be to have you give some of the best.
	I know, do you actually go and investigate them?
	Oh yes.
	Oh you do?
	Oh yes.
	The ones that are as close to us as possible, we do like to go and talk to the people and I have several pictures of ghosts as well.
	we take our equipment in and see what we can get and the last two houses that we've investigated
	we have picked up entities on film. On film? On film. Now that begins to get my interest.
	I have several pictures of ghosts as well. We have published them in the newsletter I just
	talked about a little while ago and they are very good photographs but I have not seen one.
	Did you get them on regular film or video or what?
	I got them on regular.
	One place it was 400 ASA and another place it was 200 ASA color film.
	And they came out very well, very clear.
	Well, describe what you've got on.
	Boy, I'd like to have these photos.
	Describe what you see on film.
	The last one that we got looks like a tornado.
	The shape of a tornado.
	Energy vortex.
	Funnel shape.
	Curving.
	And not only that, the funnel, or the energy vortex, actually casts a shadow on the wall.
	Gee, I wonder if that's when warm spirits and cold spirits come together.
	You sure can't see him with the human eye, but the film picked it up very clearly.
	The other one that we got was a mist, and the thing that was unusual about that one is that there was a mirror on the wall, and you can see the figure of a woman in the mirror.
	But in front of the mirror, all you can see is a mist with a pinkish tint.
	Well, that's really interesting.
	Uh, do you, uh, do you have these photos scanned into a computer format?
	Yes, uh, I, I scanned them in, and I've been, people who've, uh, requested an email, I've been sent a copy.
	I, I would really like a copy.
	Um, are you members of AOL?
	No, but we can send to your... The problem with sending, I think, through the internet is it ends up in some sort of weird binary format when you get to the other end.
	So maybe after the program we can exchange phone numbers and I will send you my ghost photograph as well.
	That would be great.
	And we could just do a direct transfer.
	That'd be fine.
	And in fact, we can get some copies made and send them to you.
	That'd be good too.
	That way you can see the actual original.
	I can actually scan here as well.
	Okay.
	Alright, good.
	So, you've got photographs, but again, when you took them, none of this was apparent.
	What caused you to take the photographs?
	In other words, you must have felt something or known something was going on.
	I have to admit that the last place we went to I definitely felt something behind me.
	It's an arts and crafts store in Scappoose, Oregon.
	And in going up the stairs to investigate where there had been a lot of noise and the owner had felt a lot of eerie sensations and heard creaking floorboards and Various things.
	Going up the stairs, I had a very strong feeling something was behind me.
	So I began shooting pictures.
	I got to the top of a stair, turned around, and just started shooting and picked up this, what looked like a tornado.
	Do you have any sense of why something would be visual to a camera and not the human eye?
	Yes.
	A lot of studies, when you go into research on that, Uh, is apparently on these entities, uh, are visible in a different portion of electromagnetic, uh, spectrum than what we can see.
	That's why some films, which are more receptive to the higher frequencies, it will, uh... Well, that would make sense.
	...delve into.
	Mm-hmm.
	Because so many of the things that we, when we're there, I take, uh, the electromagnetic readings on a, uh, on a, uh, sensor to measure the gauss, and, you know, I get your normal background rate, And that'll be a .1, .3.
	Now, is this a magnetometer?
	Uh-huh.
	It's very similar to one.
	Yeah, that's very impressive that you would get those readings.
	You remember the old Ghostbusters movie?
	Uh-huh.
	They were able to trap entities.
	Now, if you're able to measure a magnetic anomaly, You're proving, obviously, something is really going on.
	Something is really happening.
	It's a good backup to the photographic evidence.
	But, might it be possible to, in effect, someday, do you think, actually trap an entity?
	I don't think so.
	At this point.
	And that's because these entities that I can find, the monitor will jump up to Uh, 3, 4.0, 5.0, from a background like 0.1, 0.2, and it's there for a while, and all of a sudden it just vanishes.
	It's gone.
	They move very quickly.
	And whether it's moved to a different location, or whether it just simply, you know, dissipated out, I don't know, but when it's there, it will remain like this one at the parts and crafts store, probably for 25 minutes, it remains atop a shelf, And a box filled with brooms.
	All right, what kind of control work do you do?
	If you take the same magnetometer and you put it in a home where there is no reported problem or ghost or anything else, and you run it and graph it for a few days, do you see jumps in magnetic anomaly?
	No.
	You don't?
	No, you get your normal background spike that you normally get.
	And almost always the spikes are under 1.0.
	So in other words, by a factor of Many hundreds of percent, it takes a jump.
	It really does.
	And the interesting thing is, Art, is that when you get to the center of the anomaly, as you go off each edge, you maybe only have 12 inches, 15 inches, and it's back down to 0.1.
	So it's a very, very physically small area of magnetic anomaly.
	Like the size of a basketball or a football.
	Oh, that's really interesting.
	And they're not shapes, like a human-type shape.
	They're just, I guess, a better description like a basketball or football inside.
	But you go all the way around them and you move away 12, 15 inches, it drops right down
	to essentially zero, the background noise.
	And yet when you go right directly in center, it pops right up to, you know, 400, 500 percent
	increase.
	Is there anything, I've heard many stories of course of, I'll tell you what, we'll hold
	this for a break, but what I want to ask when I come back, you two, is about the reported
	chills or cold.
	Even cold to the degree that somebody can see their breath.
	That kind of cold that goes along with the presence of whatever it is we're talking about here.
	Back to Dave Esther and Sharon Gill in Oregon.
	Subjects of hauntings.
	Alright, you two.
	What about this temperature thing?
	Have you measured anything or seen anything there?
	Absolutely.
	You know, if I... Grif, just a minute, all right?
	Sure.
	When we go into a place to investigate... Now, we're amateurs, okay?
	We learn all the time as we... Every time we do an investigation, we learn a little bit more.
	We take in with us the electromagnetic field meter.
	We take in a sound level meter for measuring your sub-audio.
	Sure.
	Typically what?
	and then the higher end.
	We also take in a thermometer that will measure some of our digital readout because you do
	get a temperature drop or an increase in temperature whenever an entity is present.
	Typically what?
	Or is there a typical?
	There isn't really a typical.
	I recall one story when we were down at the Liberty Theater in Astoria that had three
	ghosts that haunt them and upstairs balcony in one of the chairs with wooden arms whenever
	someone sits in it those arms get extremely hot.
	So there the temperature increases and yet down in the basement when you're down there
	and we go down there to change some infrared film it got extremely cold to the point where
	you felt like the chills were coming on.
	Oh Um, let's try this approach.
	When you're getting a high magnetometer reading, the entity is literally over or next to the machine, I would say, correct?
	That's correct.
	At that same point, are you measuring the temperature?
	And if so, how many degrees in differential have you noted?
	That I haven't done.
	We're so busy tracking the entity, so Sherry can start taking pictures.
	Because whenever we get a high reading, and she starts snapping frames.
	And I guess it gets so exciting at that point that we just, we don't get everything done at one time.
	Of those people that will call you up and say, look, something's going on in my home,
	or we think there is a haunting, and you go and investigate, how many times do you find something
	versus, you know, it being a bust?
	I'm not certain that we've ever really found a bust.
	There was the one evening that we went down to Sellers Arts and Crafts, and it was real quiet.
	We didn't really pick up anything on the EMS, and I didn't figure I picked up anything on film.
	So we thought, well, we'll try again when the activity picks up.
	Sure.
	That was the night I got the picture.
	Do you think they enjoy people like Dave and Sharon and some ghost investigators?
	with the mf meter found absolutely nothing it's kind of like they can come
	and go as they want and I think the one that we we can find them is when they
	want us to be found when they want to be found when they want to be found do you
	do you think they they enjoy people like Dave and Sharon and awesome ghost
	investigators let's have some fun here I think I think that sometimes they like
	attention They're like you and I. That's why you like to have attention given to you.
	But I think also we take an approach to our investigations of respect and reverence toward the entity also.
	Because I think if she's going in with the wrong attitude, it makes a difference.
	That's interesting.
	Brad Steiger did talk about attitude once.
	You may have heard him on my show.
	I bet you did.
	Sure, yeah.
	You remember the story about the ghost with the bad attitude that lifted Brad and several other people up off the floor and let them drop?
	Uh-huh.
	Um, that came from a bad attitude on Brad's part.
	He insulted the ghost.
	Alright, very good.
	We're going to talk about the nature of what it is we're facing here when we come back.
	You two rest.
	We've got top of the hour news and we'll be right back.
	From an area near Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
	The Department of Transportation and this station.
	From the Kingdom of Nine, you're hearing Greenland with Art Bell.
	To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Well, it certainly is.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222 or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Well it certainly is. Back to Dave Esther and Sharon Gill.
	I don't want to call them Ghostbusters, because that is not what it is.
	That's what it is, tempting to call them, but they're not, because they don't bust ghosts.
	They just investigate them, find that most clients don't want them gone.
	So we'll get back to all that in a moment, talk about what a ghost really is.
	There is a man named John Hanley in Beaverton, Oregon, who runs a very successful home-based computer biz.
	So successful, in fact, that he was the subject of a coverdaster and Sharon Gill.
	Are you two still there?
	We are.
	Good.
	All right.
	I think one of the most important areas to look at first, maybe, what really is a ghost?
	In other words, I'm a great investigator, and I'm sure you are too, about whether or not we have a life that comes after this one.
	It is probably one of mankind's biggest questions.
	And if there are ghosts, And if they are the remnants of, or the soul of, a departed person, then that is very important evidence toward that, you know, proving that afterlife.
	On the other hand, if these are fallen angels, or some other form of entity that never once was human, it is something else again.
	Which, in your opinion, is it?
	From the experience that we've had, Art, on the last two years, Uh, the so-called ghosts that we work with, or investigated, and collected stories on, have been, uh, for the most part, uh, that they've parted souls of those that have lived here.
	In fact, they've all been Earth, uh, they've all born, raised, and then died here on this planet.
	And when they've died, they've had, for one reason or another, a reason to stay behind.
	Instead of going on towards the light, or through the tunnel, Whatever maze it is that they access into, they've stayed behind, and a lot of them that we've encountered in the stories and from our own investigations have been because of either they're lost or confused, unresolved issues, or they're watching over someone until they feel it's time to go on.
	They're not the fallen angels you hear about.
	They're not destructive.
	You work with ghosts, they're a lot like people.
	You have good ones, and you have bad ones.
	For the most part, do you believe people are good, or for the most part, do you believe people are bad?
	And I guess from that standpoint, it's how you can evaluate ghosts.
	When we go in, we don't make judgments.
	We're very... We're very upfront.
	We go there simply to observe, to document, and to learn.
	Well, alright.
	You tend to come down, both of you, on the side that ghosts or poltergeists are generally friendly or good.
	But you say there are indeed good and bad.
	Now, so many ghosts seem to be manifestations of some tragedy or tragic death.
	Wouldn't these many times be the scarier variety, it seems to me?
	I would think so.
	Now, sometimes it's difficult not to confuse maybe a ghost that's tormented with maybe residual energy left behind because of sorrow or pain that may be imprinted into the area, which you feel in the form of depressions or anxieties.
	Well, how do you delineate?
	In other words, how do you know whether you're dealing with residual energy or an absolute entity?
	From our experience, the only way you can tell is if you have poltergeist events take place.
	If pranks are being played, you notice unusual events taking place, where an imprint of residual energy is always there.
	It doesn't go away.
	And yet, if you have a poltergeist present, Almost always they go in cycles.
	There'll be a period of time when there's no activity whatsoever.
	Dead as a doornail.
	And then a little while later it gets very, very active.
	And that dies down and goes dormant.
	That's what's happened at the Erickson Craft Store.
	It has been very quiet for a long period of time.
	And now the activity is slowly picking up again.
	That was why they called us last week to come in.
	Oh, last week?
	Yes.
	Oh, yes.
	And it was just a couple of weeks ago that we were called to a historic house in Columbia City.
	And the people there said that the owners of the house had loved the place so much that they feel that the lady is there.
	Because she didn't want to leave.
	She wants to make sure that the house is cared for.
	And the caretakers have seen this woman at her wood stove in the kitchen, in her white apron, as she did every day of her life, cooking.
	And yet people accept this and live with it.
	Now, if I went into my kitchen and I saw a lady there cooking, and I knew my wife was in bed, it would bother me a lot.
	Um, I mean really, Bobby, we can sit here and esoterically talk about these things, but if they actually happened to you, I just don't see how people could keep it together.
	Uh, they called us to Columbia City because the caretaker had gone upstairs to the bedroom to change the quilts on the big feather bed, and in doing so, found two imprints on the bed, as though two people had sat on the edge of the bed. They didn't panic. They called us
	to come and see what we could find.
	And then said, we hope you don't think we're nuts. But, and then told us what had been happening
	there and they're very comfortable with it. There's no fear there whatsoever.
	Yeah, but we also had a story come to us from Ohio, about a lady who'd moved, her husband had moved in.
	I moved to Ohio from, uh, Seattle for a job transfer and they built a new house.
	Uh, and, well, he was away on business, uh, in February of this year.
	Uh, they, uh, it was freezing outside, very cold, and she was upstairs and she heard this child crying.
	And so she walked to the edge of the stairs and she seen this little 10 or 12 year old girl.
	She was red dressed in a blue dress and a white apron and white socks and black patent
	leather shoes but she had no coat on.
	And so this lady called down and asked her if she wanted to have a coat thinking it was
	maybe one of the neighbors children or something.
	And the little girl just vanished.
	And this woman who contacted us said that she thought maybe she was losing a little
	bit or maybe she was just having a hard day.
	And a little while later she was in the bedroom doing some work and she heard this little
	So she ran back out to the banister, the stairs, and looked down, and there was a little girl.
	This time she walked down the stairs, walked up to the girl, and she put her hands out to give her a hug, and she was crying.
	And her hands went right through her, and she vanished instantly.
	And this continued for a while.
	She thought she was going crazy.
	Added to this, the next time the operation came, There was an old man, dressed in kind of like the attire of the Grapes of Wrath, with a hammer flung to his side and an old hat he had in his hand.
	It was like a farm laborer of a Depression era.
	And they just kind of stood looking at her.
	And she'd have these visions of them.
	I call them visions because only she could see them.
	Once when she was going to a Christmas party, they were in the back seat.
	And her husband couldn't see them, just her.
	He started undergoing psychiatric treatment, so to think it may be something was, she really
	was hallucinating.
	Well sure.
	And she called, because she'd gotten a copy of the book, she'd read it, and there were
	many stories in the book of very similar nature, and she realized that she had been going crazy,
	that these were ghosts.
	Alright, let's try this attack.
	You said generally you do not exorcise or attempt to remove these entities, correct?
	That's correct.
	In your description of ghosts in the first place, you describe them as confused, misdirected, or on a mission, but not necessarily pleased about being earthbound and not having gone on to the light or whatever comes next.
	Would not an exorcism be a compassionate thing to do?
	In other words, When you exorcise a ghost, don't you send it off on the right path?
	Not if it doesn't want to go.
	You know, the belief systems of ghosts and the belief systems of humans can be quite a bit different.
	You know, if someone lived, let's say they were a Chinese, and they practiced the Buddhist or the Hindu belief system, and they died, Well, what about the famous old movie, The Exorcist?
	Based, by the way, I understand, on a true story from St.
	Louis, or the St.
	them because they don't accept that.
	They leave when they want to leave.
	It's been our experience that when they are ready to go, they are ready to go and just
	by talking to them they will leave.
	What about the famous old movie, The Exorcist?
	Based by the way I understand on a true story from St.
	Louis or the St. Louis area.
	of course uh... it became possession Have you ever seen an entity move into or have you investigated a case of possession?
	No, we have not.
	Most of the stories are related to you in just the last few minutes.
	Other types of things that we encounter on a daily basis.
	More of the poltergeist kind of deal?
	Yes.
	Well, it would imply a consciousness because a lot of the kind of things that you've been talking about seem to be practical joke type things, and that would imply that the entity has a sense of humor.
	Definitely.
	Emotions.
	Consciousness.
	There are times when, if you offend them, that the pranks become more severe than if you don't.
	If you're respectful for them, it seems that the pranks are like what you'd have from a 7 or 10 year old.
	Just little mischief things.
	Nothing of damaging of any kind.
	Just things that are annoying.
	Liberty Theater is a real good example of what David was just expressing.
	Liberty Theater?
	Liberty Theater in Astoria.
	If you go in and talk about Paul, which the manager really doesn't like to do because she knows that something will happen if you talk about Paul.
	ABC News Nightline was in the theater with us.
	We did the filming for the show before we left the theater.
	The lady said, I know something's going to happen.
	I just don't know what.
	Sure enough, the next morning they went in and the butter container had exploded to a
	point where the top had flown off, which they never found, but it hit the chrome around
	the edge of the counter and bent it halfway up.
	Oh brother.
	So it was a real impact, but there was butter everywhere and that had never happened before.
	And yet when NBC came out and did a story the next morning, or the next afternoon when
	the manager opened up for the evening, the popcorn had already been popped for them.
	There's really no rhyme or reason.
	See, that's an entity with a sense of humor.
	Yeah.
	Now, let's talk about this entity.
	As far as I know, his name was Paul.
	He was a pimp back in the 30s.
	He had two ladies in the evenings that worked for him, Lily and Mary.
	He threw one of them off the balcony when she wanted to get out of the business.
	The other lady got her throat slit.
	Alright, I'll tell you a story in a moment.
	together downstairs.
	And yet these three still continue to haunt there.
	Paul has appeared to not only the manager but some of the customers at times and appears
	as a six foot man dressed in white, very slim, with a Panama hat, white tuxedo and a devilish
	smile on his face.
	And as soon as you look at him he grins and he's gone instantly.
	All right, I'll tell you a story in a moment.
	You two stand by.
	My guests, Dave Esther, Sharon Gill, the subject, ghosts.
	Right now, the subject is hard water.
	It comes, well, you'll see it on glasses when you try to wash them.
	We're talking about ghosts, and again, it is very important, and I take a very serious approach to this topic, because I believe there is something to it, as I believe there is something to an afterlife.
	And this is one method, and I particularly enjoy these two, because they're doing actual measurements, and finding actual differences in magnetic flux fields, and they're finding it in photography and all the rest of it.
	It's a hands-on kind of thing.
	Dave and Sharon, is that the way you decided to follow this, as a hands-on kind of operation?
	Yes, when we got into it, first of all, the idea of writing about ghosts and folks taking place, I kind of got attracted to it.
	So I started collecting the stories.
	We got curious.
	They said, like you said before, if a ghost is real, tell me.
	Of life after death.
	We tried to eliminate as much as we could that could be explained by, for example, if you're on medication and you've seen something.
	Right.
	Or you're sick.
	You know, something obviously that may be induced because of health or But those stories where the individuals were not on
	medication, they were not ill, they were not sane, started to repeat themselves over and over
	again.
	So you develop a point of a common thread that started running through all the stories.
	And that common thread kept saying, they're real.
	You mentioned a pimp and a couple of prostitutes.
	Here in the state of Nevada where I live, prostitution is a legal business in many counties.
	My county happens to be one of them.
	My county, Nye County.
	And there are two houses here, which I won't even bother to name, but they have been haunted for many years by a ghost named Harold.
	And why do you suppose, either one of you who wants to answer this, that this kind of business I hope that isn't coming toward you.
	That this kind of business seems to draw that kind of entity to it.
	What is it about that business?
	Any ideas?
	Maybe it's not as much the business art as it is the energy that they feel there.
	It's been our experience that if you have a household with a lot of turmoil, distress, anger, resentment, you're going to draw in a ghost that feeds on that.
	And the repercussions that you get back are the more violent ones.
	If you have a family that's, I won't say normal, but has positive energy flow coming from it, where they control their feelings, their emotions, they tend to draw in the entities that feel that type of positiveness.
	And perhaps in those establishments you have there, there's some type of an energy feel that Harold enjoys being around.
	He feeds upon.
	uh... when we come back here after the break one of the hour
	i would like to ask in fact i will right now uh... both of you individually
	has there been any time when you've been investigating something
	has scared the hell out of you no that's that's a just just give me a quick yes or no
	right now Absolutely.
	Oh yeah.
	I have no doubt about it.
	All right, well then we will come back.
	Good.
	I mean, that's really good.
	That's healthy.
	And I can't imagine working in that field and not being scared.
	So we'll find out what it is that scared them the most.
	And take your calls when we come back.
	From an area near the infamous Dreamland, this is Dreamland.
	From the Kingdom of Nigh, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
	Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1222.
	727-1295 in the 702 area code.
	Now again, here's Art Bell.
	Now, once again, here I am.
	Good, uh, evening, everybody.
	This is Dreamland.
	Dave, Esther, and Sharon Gill are my guests.
	They've written a book called Twilight Visitors.
	It is a compilation of many, many ghost stories.
	And they are not Ghostbusters, but Ghost... well, buddies would be closer to it, I guess.
	And we'll get back to them in just one moment.
	Um, well, no, let's do it now.
	As a matter of fact, I've got several faxes in already, you two.
	And, uh, so let me hit you with some rapid-fire questions from Phillipsburg, Pennsylvania.
	Somebody wants to know about altered states.
	You know what a, uh, psychomantium is, I presume?
	Yes.
	A sensory deprivation chamber.
	Would this kind of thing, in your opinion, lead to the likelihood of being able to make contact with entities?
	In other words, altered states.
	That's a good question.
	You know, when you get into the state that we're ashamed to get into, to access the higher regions of the mind, I can't answer.
	I really don't know.
	That's fair.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Okay, that's fair.
	Have you ever recorded any phantom audio from a mic in an empty room?
	This one actually comes from my engineer up at the network, Brian.
	In other words, have you ever put a microphone in there?
	We all know that sometimes voices show up on tapes.
	Right, I haven't, but I've had reports in from people who have done that.
	I haven't asked for copies of the audio yet, but they have said they have captured on that.
	We do take a tape recorder with us.
	Most of the time, it's too noisy when we're there.
	In other words, you guys are making noise?
	No, normally the family or whoever's living there is so excited about the investigation.
	They just jabber on and on.
	I see.
	Well, that would make sense.
	All right.
	Now, I asked you prior to the break, what has really, truly scared you?
	And you might both want to respond individually or together.
	I don't know.
	What would individually?
	Well, I can honestly say that the most terrifying experience I had was at the Liberty Theater in Astoria.
	And the manager told us that she would take us on a tour under the stage.
	Now this building opened for their first opera in 1925, so it's quite old.
	And it's like stepping back in time when you go through the front doors.
	The air is different, the atmosphere is totally different, like you've stepped into another dimension or something.
	And going under the stage, The walls are signed by people like Al Capone.
	It was quite a prominent theater in its time and there were a lot of famous people that attended various shows.
	But going under the stage, it was not only dark, it was eerie.
	The air was heavy.
	It was a real strange feeling, a place that the further down you went, the more you didn't feel like you wanted to be there.
	As you go further under the stage, there are tunnels that run like a maze under the town.
	It's like a town built on a town, because the town has actually burned to the ground a couple of times.
	It was a place that made me feel very uncomfortable, and I told Dave that I felt like we probably need to go back upstairs, because it didn't make me feel good at all.
	Okay, Dave?
	Mine also occurred in the same building.
	I had to take the camera down into what they call the ice room, where they keep the ice machine, and that is the domain that Paul hangs out in.
	And one of the previous employees had blocked open the door with a 5-gallon paint can, a bucket in actuality, and while she was getting the ice, Paul moved that 5-gallon bucket and slammed the door shut on her and locked her in.
	There's no lights in that room.
	It's pitch black.
	And so that's the room I chose to go into because I had to change the infrared, which, as you know, has to be done in total blackness.
	And so I walked in at probably about 15 feet to the table and then I had the door closed and walked to the table and I unloaded the infrared that was in there and loaded some more.
	And as I turned to leave, I literally felt a cold air, a breath of cold air on the back of my neck.
	My hair on the back of my neck literally stood up, just like you'd see in the movies or something.
	And I was thinking, my gosh, this can't be happening.
	And I, it was everything I could do to keep from turning around because I did not want to know what was behind me.
	I couldn't see it, but I didn't want to, I just didn't want to know.
	I walked as fast as I could to the door because it just really, it chilled me to the bones.
	And I've, I've been to Vietnam.
	I've been, I've been around.
	That's the first time that I was literally frightened so deeply of something that I, I couldn't see.
	When ABC was out, we had a cinematographer with us who was a correspondent during the Vietnam War.
	And this man did not want to be left alone in any part of the theater.
	And they walked bravely in, but when we were ready to leave, they were firm believers that something was going on in that building.
	Well, there are many stories.
	I, too, thank you very much, was in Vietnam.
	And there are many stories about not just Vietnam, but most wars, regarding hauntings.
	And again, of course, in wars, you tend to get people killed in great moments of stress of various kinds.
	And those sorts of deaths do lead to hauntings, don't they?
	Yes, they do.
	Well, exactly.
	When we say haunting, Now these people, like the story you have in the book about the Vietnam Vet and his fallen comrades.
	And when each one, after the firefight, each one of them came back and made him a promise to fulfill some obligation.
	At a time he didn't realize they were dead.
	So they looked just like, you know, united.
	And when he discovered they were dead, it took him 25 years to fulfill his commitment of his promises to them.
	There are times when these entities will appear in human form, just like they did in real life.
	And there are other times where you simply don't see them.
	They're mist, or a cloud, or simply a feeling you get.
	Sensation.
	It's very confusing, and it makes you wonder whether you're dealing with sort of a remnant of a soul, or remnant of something, a person.
	or you're actually dealing with their soul which is trapped here on earth
	or maybe a little bit of both. The whole area is fascinating
	and confusing and let's take a few phone calls.
	West of the Rockies you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
	Hello. Hi.
	Hello.
	Hi, is somebody speaking?
	Oh, I didn't know.
	Yes.
	I thought you were recording.
	No, turn your radio off, dear.
	Yes.
	David, turn it off for me, please.
	Yes, David, turn it off.
	I just think this program is absolutely fantastic.
	Thank you.
	You're welcome.
	Am I speaking to... All of us.
	Where are you?
	All of us.
	I'm in Texas at the moment.
	Texas, all right.
	Yes.
	And I just came back from Europe.
	I live there.
	I came back about two days ago, and my uncle died.
	I'm a journalist, but I don't want to mention that.
	I don't know if it's on now or not.
	It's not, is it?
	I'm just getting screened, am I not?
	No, we don't screen calls here.
	You're on the air.
	Oh, am I on the air?
	Okay, I didn't notice.
	Well, when I picked up the line, I said you're on the air.
	Oh, I see.
	That's an important cue.
	I understand.
	Okay, fine.
	Anyway, ever since I was a child, I had these feelings.
	I could see spirits, for example, or people on the other side.
	And when I was a little girl, I remember waking up and seeing these people in my room.
	And of course, I went to my father and told my father, when you're three and a half years old, what father pays attention to a child at three and a half and is watching a Dallas football game?
	Neither.
	So, and now this year, after I'm 40 now, so this year, I talked to my next door neighbor and I asked her because I'd heard that she told she talked about these ghost stories and there were ghosts there and I explained how these people looked like and she told me you couldn't know them because um you didn't move in at the time when this man died so evidently I saw the man you know that used to live there not in the house but the house next door as a child and now it's 1995 and um are you still there?
	Hello?
	Yes.
	Oh, okay, fine.
	It's 1995.
	It's fine, uh-huh.
	It's 1995, and, uh, of course, I can see the other side.
	It's very easy, but it's very difficult sometimes, too.
	It's like a television set.
	You turn it on and off.
	You turn the loudness.
	Sometimes it's too loud.
	Sometimes it's too less.
	But my uncle died, uh, three days ago.
	That's why I came back.
	And in Germany, he came to visit me.
	And, uh, he said to me goodbye, and he talked about my aunt, and then he left.
	And I had another miracle story.
	My nephew was also beaten with a baseball bat here in Texas.
	And anyway, the priest came in and said he was not going to live.
	I mean, the doctor said he wasn't going to live, and the priest said goodbye and so forth.
	And I prayed, and my message from the angels were, he's going to live, he's going to talk, and he's going to walk.
	Where the doctor said, he's not going to live, He's probably going to die in the next few days.
	He won't ever be able to talk or walk.
	And my message was, yes, he will.
	So, I called my brother and told him my message, because they know me.
	And, um, anyway, after some time of saying that he's going to die, he's going to die, he's going to die, um, two weeks ago, I talked to them again.
	And, uh, they said that, uh, He got out of the coma, and the first thing he said was, I visited my aunt in Germany.
	And as I was praying for him, I could feel him and I could basically smell him in Germany.
	And I told him, well, John, you know what?
	You've got to go back to your body.
	It's not your time.
	Go back.
	And I didn't know this, but I found this out later.
	A friend of his died a week before.
	And these are young kids, okay?
	And, uh, I said to this boy, I said, well, God bless you, may you go to God's hands.
	Well, anyway, like I said, I talked to my, my, um, my sister-in-law, and she told me, well, Anna, you just can't believe what happened here.
	And I said, what happened?
	Oh, gosh, is he alive?
	What's wrong?
	She said, no, he woke out of the coma, and the first thing he said was, I visited Aunt Anna, and by the way, she was fighting terribly with my, with my friend.
	And I said, I was fighting terribly with his friend.
	I said, no, no, no, wait a minute.
	I prayed for him.
	She said, no, but he thought it was an argument.
	And in a way, it was true.
	It probably looked like an argument because I told his friend to go because he wanted him.
	He wanted my nephew to stay.
	All right.
	Listen, we've got to run there, but thank you very much for the story.
	And here's what it makes me want to ask you to.
	You have taken pictures of ghosts or entities.
	Is it not possible that people like this lady, our brain is a fantastically complicated thing, making the best Pentium running right now look silly.
	We don't understand all about our brain.
	Is it not possible that some people like this lady are able to see what you can only occasionally catch in photographs?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, there are probably many cases like hers recorded where a person is able to see into
	the spiritual realm.
	Their brains, their eyes are able to see into a frequency range that most of us aren't able
	to.
	Exactly.
	And children overall at a young age are able to see into the infrared range where we as
	adults have grown so far past that that we've lost the ability.
	Animals, cats, essentially react.
	It is true about cats.
	Hold on just a moment, we'll be right back to you.
	I have cats and I can certainly confirm that.
	Cats are very sensitive to areas and things that we know nothing about.
	Can't hear, can't feel, can't see.
	I don't know what that says about cats, but I believe it to be true.
	Now, I also believe to be true, essentially what that lady said, and they just affirmed, that there are people that can see things That have developed, in effect, an ability that the rest of us, through the noise of everyday living, have essentially simply forgotten about.
	We'll be right back.
	How many of you two still there?
	We sure are!
	Alright, good.
	Here we go back to it again.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
	Hi, good morning, Art.
	I'm glad I finally got through.
	This is Bob at St.
	Louis.
	Yes, hi, Bob.
	And I have a story from about 15 years ago.
	My mom had died just before I graduated from high school.
	And she died on a Saturday.
	And on Monday morning was her wake.
	And I usually set my alarm for 7 o'clock at that time.
	And about 6.59, a voice rang out in my room.
	And I'm a very sound sleeper, and it really is hard for me to get up.
	And it said, Bob, wake up.
	And it was really loud.
	And very distinct, and it was neither a female or... Gerard, as usual, a really good program.
	How did your guests get started in this field?
	Larry in Miami, Florida.
	Well, Larry, as usual, the answer was in the first part of the program, and it was because of their very own haunted house.
	At any rate, we're gonna try and bear down hard on your calls this hour.
	Dave and Jaren, are you there?
	We are.
	Alright.
	Look, I would like to give you guys an opportunity to promote your book a little bit.
	If people wish to get Twilight Visitors, how many ghost stories are in here?
	There are 70 ghost stories.
	70?
	And everyone's true.
	And everyone's true.
	How would they get the book?
	They can call 1-800-WEIRD-94.
	1-800-WEIRD-94.
	That's a pretty good number.
	We thought so.
	I take it that you established it in 1994.
	Yes.
	1-800-WEIRD-94.
	How much is your book?
	$13.95.
	Very reasonable indeed.
	How can you say, you say every one of these is true?
	They're allegedly true.
	The stories that have been given to us are alleged It's a very serious subject and I treat it seriously.
	Our feelings as individuals, our feelings are what has happened, has happened to them.
	They get very serious.
	It's like the gentleman you called about that voice.
	It's not something you forget.
	Oh no, I know.
	To me it is a very serious subject and I treat it seriously.
	A lot of people use this for a good laugh tagline at the end of a newscast or something.
	This is a very serious subject to me as a matter of fact.
	All right, let's go back to the lines.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	Let me turn the radio down.
	Thank you.
	Tell us, where are you?
	Yes, sir.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm calling from Pennsylvania.
	All right.
	When I was about 13, not quite 14 years old, we had moved into a new neighborhood.
	And after living there about two weeks, I was walking home, and I was going up the I don't know.
	way home and there was a house to my left, a single story house and the porch light was
	on and there were still curtains in the window.
	I saw coming down the hill toward me what appeared to be a transparent lady, she had
	sort of a yellowish green glow to her.
	I remember her in exact detail, the hobble, how she hobbled as she walked, the type of
	dress she wore, how she wore her hair.
	This woman walked around me in a circle three times, kind of horrible.
	And I'm turning around, following her, and I'm in amazement.
	I'm thinking to myself, I wonder if this is what a ghost is supposed to be.
	Finally, the lady stops.
	She stares at me.
	She turns, hobbles up the hill, goes through the wall, into the house.
	So, the next day, I stop at my friend's house.
	He's not there, but stands there.
	Wait a minute.
	Did you say goes through the wall?
	Went right through the wall.
	Okay.
	Now, the thing is that my friend's aunt's house was right across the street from this place.
	When I told her what I saw, she was ironing clothes at the time, and she looked at me and she gasped, and she said, you're just trying to scare me.
	And I said, what do you mean?
	And she said, oh, that's right.
	She said, Maddie died two weeks before you guys moved into the neighborhood.
	I described in complete detail the woman who had just died.
	Now, they hadn't settled the estate.
	And I kind of wondered for a long time why that might have happened, and I think I figured it out.
	Now, sometime after that, my younger brother fell in with some kids, and they got into trouble, and they broke into that house, and they stole some jewelry and stuff, and they were all caught, and it was all returned.
	The only thing I can think of is that maybe in wanting to protect her house, maybe she knew somehow or other that that was going to happen, or she feared it, and maybe she felt that I would tell other people what I had seen, and it would scare children away.
	But of course I never said anything to anybody.
	Interesting.
	Again, typical?
	You too?
	Yes, it is.
	It shows very much a protective, you know, when an older lady passes on, she's still very concerned about her possessions, her home, her things, until the result.
	In other words, in the near afterlife, our concerns are very much like they were here.
	Yeah, there's several stories we get where it's almost like when you die, you don't know you're dead.
	You know, you're still going on conducting your business as you would normally.
	That would be very confusing.
	I'm sure, because if you watch and read a lot, a lot of stories have been documented where someone has died and has communicated with someone, or there's been a motor car accident, and one has come back and the other ones have not, and they all say the same thing, they didn't realize they were dead.
	They couldn't believe it, couldn't accept it.
	Maybe because of the, uh, the instant nature of it.
	I'm sure.
	You know, as far as passing through the house, you know, if they're an electromagnetic energy field, why not?
	There's so much we do not understand about energy, uh, pure energy, that there's no way that we can get a handle on so much of this.
	Alright, let me ask either one of you about this.
	Would you say it is a good idea, doesn't matter, or a terrible idea to build a house on top of a graveyard?
	That's a terrible idea.
	I think you could probably expect about the worst.
	I know that out here in Oregon a lot of places are built on Indian burial ground, sacred ground, and we don't know exactly where these places were.
	But the people whose homes are on this hallowed ground do experience some very strange phenomena.
	Well, even worse than that, Noah, we had a nuclear plant built along the Columbia River.
	Oh, no.
	By a major international company, and it was built on sacred Indian burial ground.
	Oh, no.
	They excavate the bones and artifacts and kept it hid from the public.
	That nuclear facility is no longer online.
	It was plagued from the day one that it was built with problems, substandard material,
	it just had nothing but problems.
	It only ran for a couple of years before it was finally, you know, I mean it was always
	the offline one, it was online and you know I never really gave it much thought to your
	Perhaps by being built on the sacred burial grounds, there's a lot of restless spirits who really resented what was being done.
	I mean, you never can tell.
	Well, it would seem a poor idea to me.
	And again, I'm going back to Poltergeist or Poltergeist 2, I can't recall.
	But it was awful.
	I remember that one scene in the swimming pool Yeah.
	I would never have made it out of the swimming pool.
	My heart would have stopped in there.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Fritz from Phoenix.
	Hello, Fritz from Phoenix.
	Well, mine is more like a statement.
	It's very unfortunate that we, the Western civilization, focus on the other side.
	Only on a large scale on Halloween.
	That's with fun and custom.
	Ah, but Fritz, you know I do it all the time.
	Well, but yes, the Art Vowel Show, but I'm talking the major part of our civilization.
	It is true.
	No, that's a good point, Fritz.
	But yet, ghost spirits from the afterlife, the way I see it, shall be and will be in years to come, and I'm talking after the Earth changes, that the subject will be handled like a daily weather report.
	Very respectful, because it's here and we have to deal with it.
	Maybe they'll change the name from Nightline to Night Spirit.
	I don't know.
	He does really make a good point.
	I consider this to be a very, very serious topic, and I take it seriously.
	And as Fritz points out, the rest of the nation focuses in on, you know, Halloween one time a year, perhaps.
	It's like a little holiday setting for them.
	Yeah.
	Not really so much on the aspect that we cover, the real aspect of entities or ghosts or whatever they are.
	But sort of the dress up and go get candy aspect, or the let's go look at the fireworks.
	Well, that'd be for July.
	But getting my holidays mixed up here.
	But the mask and the candy business and all the rest of it, instead of this aspect.
	Well, you know, there's a different aspect of it over in the Orient.
	You know where they are, their ancestors?
	Yes.
	And there are many of the Eastern folks over there, Asians, that believe their ancestors are there with them.
	Well, I lived on the island of Okinawa, and there is an interesting custom they have, which I got to participate in once, where at a certain time of the year, you go to a cave or a location and you reverently clean the bones of your dead ancestors.
	Um, and that makes me ask again about the link between the place of burial and the entities.
	In other words, try not to build on top of a graveyard of some sort.
	Is it generally true that entities stay close to what was their body?
	That's hard to tell because when you become a spirit you are outside of the realm of space
	and time we have it.
	You operate in a different environment and whether they can be next to their bones and
	instantly they can be a thousand miles away we really don't know because there are so
	many that do come and go as transients and always in motion.
	But yet around graveyards there are a lot of activities and whether these are just new
	ones that have come and haven't quite gained the knowledge they need to continue on or
	whether they because the graveyard is close to where their homes and families are.
	They stay behind.
	So it's hard to really know which?
	It really... It's almost like talking about aliens.
	Yeah.
	You know, you have the different races that you hear about.
	And, you know, some are good, some are bad, some are helpful.
	Well, Dave, I'm not even sure, and Sharon, that there is a difference between what we're calling aliens and what you're calling ghosts.
	In some cases, there may not be.
	They're on-scene entities.
	They're on-scene.
	They're twilight visitors.
	You come and go.
	Some are helpful.
	And some, depending upon how they're helping you, some will call a guardian angel or guardian spirit.
	Well, might it not, though, depend on your perspective as an individual?
	Let us say you have an experience and you see an entity.
	Some people might come away from that and say, I saw an alien.
	I saw something not of Earth.
	And another person might come back and say, well, I saw a ghost or I saw Aunt Mary.
	Absolutely.
	It is all a matter of a person's perspective because we have stories of very protective entities who have taken care of children and yet some people would label them as guardian angels.
	And yet you have others, like this energy vortex I was showing you a picture of?
	Yes, sir.
	I mean, my goodness, how can a ghost be like a funnel cloud?
	I mean, you can understand a mist-like cloud or something, or fog, because that's been portrayed quite often, but a spin, a swirling funnel shape.
	Now in the Liberty Theater, we captured on film there, a reverse spin vortex.
	where the spin was reverse of how it normally would be.
	And it was in like the letter U.
	It went down, over, and then back up again.
	Where this one we captured just last week starts from the floor and goes toward the ceiling,
	kind of bends along the way, but there's also a shadow that's cast from it.
	When you have a photographic expert look at these, what do they say?
	Well, the first reaction is that it's a chemical problem or a development problem.
	Yes.
	And then we show them the negatives.
	And you don't have, it's not characteristic of a chemical stain.
	It's right in the film itself.
	And you can see both the vortex and you can see the shadow.
	Where a normal chemical stain from developing It's quite apparent if you look at it.
	All right, you two.
	Hold on just a moment.
	We will be right back to you.
	Dave Esther, Sharon Gill are my guests.
	They have written Twilight Visitors, a compilation of 70 true ghost stories.
	We'll be right back.
	If you feel the desire to control your own work hours, your work environment, be your own boss, choose your own work companions, Then maybe you need to start your own business.
	Now briefly, before the bottom of the hour, back to Dave and Sharon.
	Okay, you two, you're back on the air again.
	Okay.
	I'm glad that you are doing what you're doing.
	Um, very glad, because there are not enough people documenting this kind of thing.
	It's one of the reasons we put out the newsletter we do.
	You know, you talk about them on the radio, and it's great, it's the theater of the mind, and we can, you know, tell people about these things, but once you've laid your eyes on a photograph, or had an actual experience, it's a whole new realm, isn't it?
	It really is, and we really enjoy your newsletter, you know?
	Because when you can visually observe an image, there's no doubt about what it is you're looking at.
	Well, if there is, there certainly is less doubt.
	I mean, words are one thing.
	Photographs, magnetometer readings, they're something else again.
	And it's a particular area of interest to me, because I want to know, myself, as you two do, I'm sure, whether this life is it, and then it's the worms crawl in and the worms crawl out, Or whether it doesn't matter and your spirit goes someplace else.
	We both firmly believe that life goes on.
	It goes back to the law of physics.
	You know, no energy can be destroyed.
	It's only transformed.
	And so, and you know, in the 70 stories we've collected, we're working on our second book.
	All right.
	Back now to Dave and Sharon.
	about as many stories right now as we have in the first book, but they are more in depth
	stories.
	We are getting a lot of people contributing stories to us off the internet, sending us
	stories through the email.
	All right, well we will get your email address on the air.
	We are at the half hour mark.
	This is Dreamland.
	Back now to Dave and Sharon.
	Are you there?
	We are.
	All right, well, Art, could you ask your guests whether they think it is possible that certain
	locations on earth are innately paranormally energized apart from any human influences
	past or present?
	you.
	Yes, absolutely.
	In other words, energy, I don't know what you'd call them, energy points?
	Yeah, grid points, energy points.
	Now you've got your famous ones like Sedona, you know, where it is reputed to be, you know, You do like staying on the positive side of this, don't you?
	Oh, absolutely.
	You can see all kinds of Freddy Krueger movies on TV.
	We don't do those kind of stories.
	We do the kind of stories that you can sit and tell around a campfire.
	Well, that's interesting.
	I do enjoy it.
	Have you studied at all why human beings enjoy scaring themselves so much?
	I wonder about it.
	I've got a letter, Art.
	This is from a funeral director back in Pennsylvania.
	I'm just glad that someone finally took me seriously.
	I don't know if you have any idea what the burden of disbelief can do to a person's life.
	He'd seen a, actually he'd heard a ghost, and no one would believe him, and being a film director, your first impression would be, why would that be strange?
	Right, well sure.
	I'd feel that way, and yet to him it was, and by being able to tell me his story, he actually felt better at it because someone took him seriously.
	Well it's cathartic, sure.
	I would think funeral directors would be particularly plagued or blessed, depending on how you look at it.
	Well, there's one area in one of the towns that is located next to a funeral home, a neighborhood, and we've gotten three different stories from that neighborhood over three, over a different period of time.
	From each house you could throw a stone to the other houses.
	Right.
	And just above a funeral home.
	And we often wonder whether or not the entities and apparitions that come to those people have come from the funeral home or just that's a coincidence.
	Interesting.
	Is there any difference, this is kind of a wild question, but I'm going to ask it anyway, in the hauntings that occur in cases where bodies are buried somewhere versus cremations.
	I don't think so.
	That's just my personal opinion.
	Because whether you burn a body or whether it decays back to the earth, the energy, the essence that made up that individual is transformed at death into whatever energy feels that exists.
	You cannot destroy the energy matter.
	You can only transform it into a different form.
	So it's actually only the body that dies away.
	And not the essence of the soul or the spirit doesn't die.
	Well, if the spirit remains sometimes near the body, as in the case of a graveyard, would the spirit remain near the ashes in the case of an urn?
	It could very well, because perhaps it's a resting place for memories.
	And perhaps that's all they are physically, for memories of who they once were.
	That may be.
	Now, we did hear a tale about an inn in Long Beach, Washington.
	Well, I'm sure.
	What do you do, by the way, on that score?
	I mean, people read your books and then I take it they contact you and they want you to come and investigate.
	we have yet to follow up on carlo i'm sure what do you do by the way on that score i
	mean people read your books and then i take it they contact you
	and they want you to come and investigate what what kind of criteria do you use
	in trying to decide you know we're going to take a trip to pittsburgh in
	and take a look at this house or whatever A lot of times we try to line up sightings in a general area that we're going to go to.
	Oftentimes the story is, how compelling is it?
	In our book, in the last three chapters, we talk about how to do your own ghost hunting type of film to use, what type of equipment you can use, hopefully to help others who want to explore the unknown to start out with.
	And even if you can't buy some type of electromagnetic meter, you can start out with a compass.
	Essentially the same thing will work for that.
	In other words, if there is a sudden magnetic flux, the compass is going to be overwhelmed from its normal North Pole look-see, and it's going to point in a new direction.
	Yeah, and depending on how much it points is how strong the field is.
	And not bad in the sense also that it would show you the direction of the magnetic radiation.
	Yeah, and you can actually home in and track it down, which is the same thing I do with a magnetic meter.
	You have to keep moving around until you pick up a field and then home in on it.
	You can do the same thing with a compass.
	And we talked about the type of films you can use to buy, and which are some are better than others.
	And the cameras themselves really doesn't make any difference.
	We've had the one lady who... Well, let me stop you on that point.
	Let's say somebody wants to go ghost hunting.
	Would they be better with the higher ASA film?
	Or what seems to work better in catching the image?
	The higher the ASA they can go, the better.
	Now, we've tried a pie of 3200 ASA black and white.
	Right.
	And, uh, I believe it was the 3200 or the 1600 that we captured an image in the Liberty Theater.
	But Sharon also has captured it on ASA 400.
	Uh, we used infrared.
	We've captured sometimes.
	We've captured on that.
	But, uh, infrared is real difficult to work with.
	Mm-hmm.
	And it's real difficult to get processed.
	All right.
	Let's go back to the phones.
	I did want to get that cleared up.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
	Hi.
	Hey, how's it going?
	Okay, where are you, sir?
	I'm in Willoughby, Ohio.
	This is Les.
	Okay.
	And I wanted to say, this is really an interesting program.
	Thank you.
	I have actually two questions for you.
	One question and one story.
	I would really like to find a ghost.
	Seriously.
	I mean, I might be crazy, but I really would like to do that.
	How do you go about finding some place that's haunted?
	In our experience, we just started talking to people about our own experiences.
	And overall, I can honestly say that just about everyone we've talked to has had some type of experience.
	And we have made contact with people who have activity in their homes at the present time, and when we tell them what we do, they invite us to come.
	Well, that's because you guys write books about it, so you get contacts.
	But what about this fellow?
	Actually, that was how we got started on our first book, was speaking of our own experiences with other people.
	I would say just go out and start asking people, friends and neighbors and relatives that you have in the area that you're in, if they've had any type of unusual experiences or paranormal events have occurred in their home.
	And a lot of times, older buildings will have it.
	All right, there you are, caller.
	In other words, ask friends.
	All right, well, the only thing that I've ever had that would be quote-unquote a paranormal experience is, it happened to me three times.
	When my brother died, when my two, my grandmother died and my grandfather died.
	Each time when they died and I was asleep, I woke up immediately at the time that they died.
	Knowing something?
	At the time until I found out usually half an hour to 45 minutes later someone would call me from the hospital and say, you know, so-and-so just died half an hour ago, 45 minutes ago.
	So I'd really like to pursue it.
	I've got you.
	So that's good advice then for anybody?
	Yes it is.
	When you start it, have an open mind and don't be judgmental.
	Don't judge what you observe because we may not understand why they're performing or why they're doing it.
	It's like when you go overseas.
	You can't judge the culture that you visit by your own standards.
	Boy, isn't that so?
	And that's one of the first things you have to learn.
	And I think they can sense that.
	If you're not coming in on a judgmental attitude, but an openness to understand, I think it opens the doors for you.
	I really do.
	And then you also stressed attitude.
	In other words, be respectful, be reverential, do not insult the entity.
	Absolutely.
	The same way if you walked into, for example, the Alamo in San Antonio.
	Yes.
	You know, there's no sign to be quieter.
	But you walk in there, and that's probably one of the most reverential places I've ever been in.
	You can hear a pin drop inside.
	And there are, you know, 40, 50 people in there.
	But everybody feels that reverence is there, respecting what had occurred there.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon on Dreamland.
	Hi.
	Hi, I'm calling from Seattle, Washington.
	Yes, ma'am.
	And Dave and Sharon, I thought I might let you know that I was in the basement of your 12th Avenue home in Seaside just today.
	Oh!
	And I, um, did you know that there were children actually, it was children haunting the basement?
	Yeah, we had children down there.
	Okay, yeah, um, and I do apologize if you get a call from the new resident.
	We were just going to Seaside, had stayed only three blocks from your house, had drove
	to Cannon Beach, picked up your book and found it interesting.
	Went back to Seaside just to look at the house, the new residence outside.
	They do not know that it was haunted.
	We showed them the book, their jaw dropped.
	They said, yes, that is our basement.
	So they took us downstairs.
	It's now a child's room.
	And they have not had any culture guide activity there whatsoever.
	But maybe if they haven't heard of it, or maybe it's calmed down, or maybe if there's a child with the children, I don't know if that would make a difference.
	Or maybe the entities left when Dave and Sharon did.
	No, actually they didn't.
	And when you have pictures of the people who moved in after us, they took pictures on Halloween night of their grandchildren dressed up, and they do have a film around them, a We did see those pictures in the book.
	And the story in there about having a low child's voice responds back to my question
	of whether my daughter was down in the basement.
	It was a real low girl's voice.
	We found this all very interesting because we picked up your book, read half of it, turned
	to our bell tonight and then heard you.
	But we'd also like to say that we followed some of your stories and we followed them
	all the way up to Astoria where we did go to the Liberty Theater.
	And I do have to agree with you, and I have one question about the theater.
	I do feel things.
	When I went into the theater I felt three separate entities and I was very scared but the theater people were very nice and let us even sit in the seat where Lily was killed.
	I felt great anger in the room for us being there and I left.
	I went upstairs and did feel something that I guess was Mary.
	I felt her about the point in the book that you said she'd be halfway up the ramp but I had not read that yet in your book and then when I read it I realized that That was where you felt it, too.
	We went back to take a picture of the bathroom, because we did take a picture of the theater.
	I was with my boyfriend.
	He asked that we go back.
	We went back, and I didn't feel her in the bathroom this time, but I did feel her behind me, and I did sort of hear voices.
	I'm wondering if there ever were voices heard from the entities that are in the Liberty Theater.
	No, right?
	There sure are.
	Oh, there are?
	Yeah, they've heard voices.
	They haven't seen, I believe, in fact they've seen all three of them, and they've heard voices at different times.
	But it's spooky when you go in there.
	Definitely.
	You can just feel it, alright?
	I know the feeling.
	I have never, you know, I've seen one UFO.
	I have never seen a ghost.
	I have never seen an entity of any sort.
	But I would love to.
	So I'm in the category of that one man who called.
	And I am, I suppose, curious enough to Follow-up, if there are any haunted houses out there, or anybody who regularly gets a visit from a ghost, I would love to be contacted.
	Alright, I want to remind everybody as well, tomorrow night on my regular syndicated program, we do something utterly different.
	It's called Ghost to Ghost.
	It too is a very, very serious approach to this whole matter of entities and ghosts.
	We do it every Halloween.
	It is not a joke show.
	It's not a fun show.
	I'm not going to be putting in a bunch of little sound effects and all the rest of it.
	We take a very serious, I take and expect you to take a very serious approach to these matters.
	They are serious because I believe they are real.
	So if you're interested, don't forget tomorrow night.
	Ghost to Ghost AM.
	That's about as much humor as you're probably going to find in it.
	It is, however, frightening.
	And for some reason, we human beings really enjoy scaring the hell out of each other.
	So it's a great opportunity for that.
	You guys, I want to give you a chance.
	The moments are closing.
	Twilight Visitors is the name of your book.
	Ghost Tales, 70 of them right now.
	How do they get the book?
	One more time.
	They will call 1-800-WEIRD-94.
	And we'd also like, if any of the listeners have stories, we'd like, you know, If they'd like to share them with us, we'd be more than happy to consider them in our next book.
	Oh, and where would they send them?
	They can send them to Post Office Box 976, St.
	Helens, Oregon, and the zip is 97051.
	Wonderful.
	Or if they're on e-mail, they can e-mail me the story at As one word, at A1.com.
	StarWest at A1.com.
	Right.
	Well, it has been a pleasure having you both on, and I like the approach you take to the topic.
	It's a good hands-on hardware kind of approach, and we will do another show, all right?
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you both, and good night from the high desert.
	Well, there you are.
	Dave Esther, Sharon Gill, Twilight Visitors.
	Now, again, I want to say this because it is deadline time right now.
	If you want our newsletter where you will continually see this kind of thing, Documented.
	I'm very intent on that, so that you don't have to just believe what I'm telling you.
	You can see for yourself.
	Art Bell, after dark.
	The newsletter.
	It's got to be ordered before the sun comes up in the morning.
	It's not after dark then, you see.
	The deadline is now 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278 from the high desert near Dreamland.
	Good night!
	This has been Dreamland.
	A program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not back.
	Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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