Art Bell

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Oct. 29, 1995 - Art Bell

01:42:30

Dreamland with Art Bell - Black Helicopters - Ghost Investigators - Dave Ester and Sharon GIll

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33:14

linda moulton howe

06:35

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sea Grain Company.
		And back now to Philadelphia we go and to Linda Howe.
		Linda Howe, an investigative journalist.
		Let's see if I can get this right.
		An investigative journalist.
		I think for the sake of brevity, we'll hold it to that.
		Looking into crop circles, animal mutilations, that sort of thing.
		Right, Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And happy Halloween to you and all of our new affiliates and everyone who's out there.
		Remember, last week I interviewed Lassen County, California brand inspector J.D. Hemphill about the two cattle mutilations found on Susanville, California Ranch October 16th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And Susanville is in northeastern California, about halfway between Alturas and Reno, Nevada, where we've had so many UFO reports and strange sound reports and all kinds of things for the last two or three years.
		Well since my report, last Sunday, I have received communications from two different residents who have noticed unusual black helicopter activity after the mutilations and some as recently as this past Friday.
		One eyewitness account is from Phil Leroy, a large equipment operator who lives in Red Bluff, California, which is about 100 miles west of Susanville.
		Three nights after the two mutilated cows were found in Susanville, Mr. Leroy was out walking his dogs around midnight.
		The dogs suddenly had a peculiar reaction to something that Mr. Leroy could not see.
unidentified		And all of a sudden, both of them, the hare stands up on the back of their neck and they start growling and just barking under their breath.
		I call it under their breath.
		You know, they're not barking out loud.
		I'm trying to figure out what the heck's going on because I thought maybe there was some coyotes out here because we've got a coyote pack that runs the creek areas.
		So I'm sitting there and I can see something over, I don't know, it's 500, 600 yards from where I'm at.
		And it's a dark night.
		In other words, there's no full moon or anything.
		It was just inanimate light in the area.
		And I could see something moving up and down a little bit over there.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Meaning like a light?
unidentified		No, there was no light.
unidentified		This was just a dark spot moving up and down.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		A dark spot, meaning it was darker than the night sky?
unidentified		Right.
		And I go, what, you know, so by my eyes are becoming more accustomed to the being outside.
		And I could see that it was what looked to be a helicopter.
		Anyhow, the two, I'll say there was three of them all told.
		Two of them split off.
		One hung over here in the area that I first saw.
		They flew, the two of them flew off, they took off to, they split off the pod or the group.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Of three.
unidentified		I got the group of three.
		They split off and they came across the field between my house and the other house, which is about six, seven hundred feet between them.
		There's power lines that run down in front of it.
		They just cleared the power lines.
		Now, this is what is the weird part.
		They passed over me.
		They were 250 feet, less than 250 feet away, I would say.
		Or approximately, let's say approximately 250 feet away.
		Two helicopters, large helicopters, didn't make a sound other than and kicked up a gust of air.
		And my dogs went nuts.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What did the dogs do?
unidentified		They just growl and when the helicopters got right overhead, they spooked and ran back to the house.
		Have you ever seen your dogs do that to anything in the air before?
		No.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what was your own gut reaction to this?
unidentified		Something weird.
		Something me right here.
		Because I know enough about helicopters.
		I know that any helicopter operated in this airspace has a 500-foot ceiling limit.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how low were these?
unidentified		50 feet off the deck.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So they were 50 feet high and only 250 feet out from you, and you still could hear nothing but a whisper?
unidentified		Nothing but a whisper.
		There were no lights.
		There were no beacons.
		There was no marking.
		Federal law says they have to have safety beacons.
		They have to have a port, starboard lights, and a safety strobe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		He's had nothing.
unidentified		He said nothing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was the shape of this particular helicopter recognizable to you in any way?
unidentified		No.
		In fact, I've got a book right here that I've been going over.
		It's an aircraft identification book.
		And it has every known air vehicle in it.
		I know that they weren't Cobras.
		I know they weren't Apaches.
		I know they weren't Hobacks, which is a Russian Hoback.
		Yeah, I've been going over these silhouettes here trying to figure out if any of them were even close.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		As these passed by you, did you notice anything change as they went past you?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And did you watch them until they disappeared or what happened?
unidentified		They went past.
		They went over my head.
		They went south for about 150, 200 yards.
		stopped in midair, went to a hover position, a hover pattern, and hovered there for approximately 45 seconds.
		And then both birds nosed down and took off south at a high rate of speed.
		At the same time, I turned and looked back toward the mountains, and the other one was moving in the same direction.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And where they hovered, do you know what's there?
unidentified		Cattle.
		There's only a few head down in that pasture.
		It's definitely cattle.
		Where they were hovering over here behind us, behind me, there's another cattle ranch over there.
		I don't know if he's got any of his cattle down yet or where they were located at.
		But the area that they were first spotted in is they run cattle out there on pasture.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In Art, where the two black silent helicopters hovered for 45 seconds, it was over cattle owned by the same family who found the two mutilated cows at their Susanville pasture three days before on October 16th.
		This man watched these three air vehicles on October 19th.
		If the helicopters are U.S. government, they might be from Fort Bragg further west on the ocean.
		But why would they fly 50 feet off the ground and hover over cattle?
		And which helicopter design can now be 50 feet above someone and only make a whisper?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know there have been advances in that technology.
		The enduring question for me is why our government, which could get all the cattle it needs, would be interested.
		I understand an extraterrestrial connection that there could be that or that they might go down to a farmer's land and snatch up cattle or mutilate them, but I just don't understand why our government would.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And what is interesting to me as a journalist and an investigator of the animal mutilation phenomena over the last 15 years is when you go back into old newspaper records all the way back into the late 60s, into the early 70s and on,
		there has been an association, eyewitness association, about dark, silent, always the term is used, silent, helicopters in the air above pastures where animals have been found mutilated.
		These dark, silent helicopters turn up.
		That has been such a chronic association throughout these almost 40 years now that the worldwide animal mutilation phenomena has been reported that one sheriff in Colorado told me when I was working on the documentary A Strange Harvest that he and others in law enforcement had come to the conclusion that they were dealing with,
		he called it creatures not from this planet, and that he speculated that maybe these dark, silent helicopters that in some cases dissolved into clouds even, were some kind of camouflage being used by a non-human intelligence.
		Now this man is not trying to say that.
		He told me he thought that this was, that these acted certainly like helicopters, but he could not find a design anywhere that matched these particular ones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well if you'll excuse the expression, maybe these are morphing machines.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Morphing machines.
		Yeah, well if they are morphing machines, if there's anybody out there who knows any group or agency or industry in this country or other that can make such morphing helicopters, I would sure appreciate a call to my office tomorrow at Area Code 215-491-9840.
		Or you can write me at Post Office Box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
		That's box 538 Huntingdon H-U-N-T-I-N-G D is in Dog O N Valley T A zip code 19006.
		My fax number is area code 2154919842 and I would really genuinely like to hear anonymously off the record or anyone on the record who might have any information about this strange helicopter activity in California or any place else and how it might link to the animal mutilations.
		And for Dreamland listeners interested in the books and documentary productions that I have done on these various kinds of phenomena, I now have a toll-free number, 800-707-9993.
		That's 800-707-9993.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now, very quickly, Linda, I've got something I want you to hear.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I believe that I've got it queued up correctly.
		If not, we'll find out shortly.
		After Linda Howe's chilling Bigfoot sound, which I have had great deals of fun with, during this last week, a second Bigfoot scream was submitted to me.
		And it comes, of course, across the telephone.
		We're waiting for the tape.
		As Linda's did, I might add.
		But I thought this one also quite chilling and a good precursor to what we're doing, and I wanted to get Linda's reaction.
		So here it is, Bigfoot number two.
		There it was.
		What did you think of that one, Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Where is that one supposed to be from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to the caller, many years ago, he taped it from some sort of documentary on Bigfoot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it was, I thought, good.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's interesting in the sense that it has a kind of an odd sustained quality, but it is very different than that very, very high-pitched sound of the one recorded up in Snohomish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Either way, either one of them, I would like to keep quite a bit of distance.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have been getting even more extraordinary Bigfoot encounter reports, and there's one that I will try to share on Dreamland in the next couple of weeks that I think will be quite fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, we appreciate your report, as always.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a doll, and we'll see you again next week.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, happy Halloween.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Take care.
		That is probably the nation's foremost investigator into crop circles, animal mutilations, that sort of thing.
		Now, coming up next, Dave Esther, Sharon Gill, co-writers of Twilight Visitors.
		It is very nearly, as you well know, Halloween.
		And it is the time for ghost stories.
		Now, as many of you who have listened through the years are aware, my attitude about ghosts is a serious one.
		Because I do think they exist.
		And I think it is one avenue of exploration with regard to whether life after death exists.
		It's why we look into it.
		In a moment, Dave Ester and Sharon Gill.
unidentified		If you enjoy Dreamland's weekly news segments by Linda Moulton Howe, which features updates about mysterious phenomena, then you might want to know more about her books and documentaries.
		Linda Howe is an Emmy Award-winning television producer, writer, and researcher of Earth mysteries linked to non-human intelligences.
		Her books and videos provide scientific data and first-hand eyewitnesses.
		Linda Moulton Howe's two books, An Alien Harvest and Glimpses of Other Realities, are acclaimed for their quality, depth, photographs, and drawings.
		If you are interested in learning more about the mysterious animal mutilations, crop circles, UFO sightings, the human abduction syndrome, and government knowledge about these worldwide phenomena, you will enjoy these books and videos available directly from LMH Productions.
		You can dial 1-800-707-9993 to order.
		That's 1-800-707-9993.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, Dave Esther and Sharon Gill, apparently one of the wire services, one of the major ones, we'll find out here in a second, picked up a story about them, calling them ghost hunters, ghost riders, ghosts, well, I guess just people with a general interest in ghosts.
		And then ABC News Nightline, normally devoted to hard news, apparently invited them on the program, and they did a show there on ghosts.
		Their book is called Twilight Visitors, and let us see if we can connect with them both a feat.
		Let's try it.
		Dave and Sharon, are you there?
unidentified		Yeah, we are.
unidentified		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're located someplace up in Oregon.
unidentified		St. Helens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		St. Helens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What in the world got you two started on ghosts?
unidentified		Well, when we moved to the seaside, Oregon, on the Pacific coast, we moved into a house that was haunted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And after being there for a couple of years, we decided that the All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll help a lot.
unidentified		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
		So you moved into a haunted house.
		I mean, how do you know your house is haunted?
unidentified		The first night we were there, we were unloading the van and moving boxes into the house.
		And we'd moved in a short wave radio and placed it on top of a file cabinet in the den.
		The radio wasn't plugged in, and there was no batteries in it.
		Later that evening, we got ready to retire.
		It was close to midnight.
		And all of a sudden we started hearing music coming from the den.
		A waltzing Matilda.
		And it played like 12, 13 times.
		And we went in, it was coming from the shortwave radio, but it was still unplugged, and there's no batteries in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bad sign.
unidentified		Just the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Waltzing Matilda, huh?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, what I've always wondered about, Dave, now maybe you had an interest in ghosts before this, or was this the beginning of the interest?
unidentified		This is probably really the beginning.
		I grew up at a house that was haunted as a child, an old farmhouse that you could hear somebody walking up and down the stairs.
		But you really didn't think much of that.
		And then over the years, nothing has really happened until we moved to Seaside.
		And that's when really that lid came off the bucket.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I take it it's going to probably worsen from here, waltzing Matilda, even out of a dead radio.
		Oh, it gets bad, but, you know.
		Now, what I've always wondered about, since I've got a couple of real-life characters who have gone through this, I want to ask, in Poldergeist, in all of these other movies, nearly the worst has got to occur before people pack up and take off.
		Now, as for me, I guarantee you, ghosts in my house, first sign, maybe I put it off to a bit of bad digestion or something.
		Second sign, I'm out of there.
		So you guys obviously didn't take off.
		Now, I know you buy a house, you've got an obligation, but still in all, to have ghosts in your house seems to me would be something that would cause you to put up a for-sale sign and go somewhere else.
unidentified		Well, not really.
		If the energy that you pick up from the ghosts are positive, you don't feel threatened.
		And I think that's probably the key right there.
		We never felt threatened in our home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's important.
unidentified		Not at all.
		We would watch to see what was going to happen next.
		The noises would occur every night in the basement.
		We would go down the next day to see what had been moved.
		It sounded like the place was falling apart at night.
		In the morning, there wasn't a thing changed.
		And we never felt intimidated.
		It was more like a game to see what would happen next.
		And these are the kinds of stories that we've encountered over the last two years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, no offense, but in every movie I've ever seen, the basement is not the source of good things.
unidentified		Yeah, that's Hollywood version.
		And no disrespect for the stories that Brad Steiger has collected over the years, you know.
		But it appears the ghosts that we've encountered have all been happy ghosts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's pretty much, actually, that's fairly much the case with Brad Steiger.
		He takes the lighter view of things.
		Though you wouldn't go as far as to say all apparitions, all ghosts, are good.
unidentified		No, definitely not.
		The ones that we have encountered have all been of a positive nature.
		So positive that they're like members of people's families.
		When we go in to investigate something, we have been asked right off if we're there to exorcise because they don't want the entity disturbed.
		They want it left alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		First of all, I don't even understand the concept of a happy ghost.
		The way my idea of the spirit world is structured, generally when ghosts have appeared, it has been because of some trauma.
		Somebody has been murdered, somebody has died prematurely, somebody has died with everlasting love, very strong love at a very important moment.
		In other words, spirits seem to be trapped on earth not for happy reasons.
		So what then are you dealing with?
unidentified		Well, I think the ghosts that you're talking about that are trapped here, they may not be happy in that sense, but they are not angry ghosts.
		They are lost, confused, have unresolved issues that they're attempting to resolve.
		And in the process, they enjoy pranks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Poltergeists.
unidentified		Photographs, the footsteps in the hallway, the cupboards that open and close, the dishes that move around.
		You put your keys down, they're gone.
		You know, the adult pranks that you would expect of a photogeist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Spirits with too much time on their hands.
unidentified		They seem to be content where they are, as are the people they're with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very odd.
		Well, I know what you've done for your book is to collect a grand number of true ghost stories, or said to be true.
		And I guess the thing to do would be to have you give some of the best.
		I know, do you actually go and investigate them?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you do.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		We, as the ones that are as close to us as possible, we do like to go and talk to the people and share their experiences.
		And we take our equipment in and see what we can get.
		And the last two houses that we've investigated, we have picked up entities on film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On film?
unidentified		On film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that begins to get my interest.
		I have several pictures of ghosts as well.
		We have published them in the newsletter I just talked about a little while ago.
		And they are very good photographs, but I have not seen one.
		Did you get them on regular film or video or what?
unidentified		I got them on regular.
		One place it was 400 ASA, and another place it was 200 ASA color film.
		And they came out very well, very clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, describe what you've got on film.
		Boy, I'd like to have these photos.
		Describe what you see on film.
unidentified		The last one that we got looks like a tornado.
		The shape of a tornado.
		An energy vortex.
		Yeah.
		Funnel shape.
		Curving.
		And not only that, the funnel or the energy vortex actually casts a shadow on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jay, I wonder if that's when warm spirits and cold spirits come together.
unidentified		You sure can't see them with a human eye, but the film picked it up very clearly.
		The other one that we got was a mist.
		And the thing that was unusual about that one is that there was a mirror on the wall.
		And you can see the figure of a woman in the mirror.
		But in front of the mirror, all you can see is a mist with a pinkish tint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's really interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have these photos scanned into a computer format?
unidentified		Yes, I scanned them in, and I've been people who've requested an email.
unidentified		I've been sending copies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would really like a copy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you members of AOL?
unidentified		No, but we can send to your...
unidentified		Aw, so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you get to the other end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So maybe after the program, we can exchange phone numbers, and I will send you my ghost photograph as well.
unidentified		That would be great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we could just do a direct transfer.
unidentified		That'd be fine.
unidentified		And in fact, we can get some copies made and send them to YARC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'd be good, too.
unidentified		That way you can see the actual original.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can actually scan here as well.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		So, you've got photographs, But again, when you took them, none of this was apparent.
		What caused you to take the photographs?
		In other words, you must have felt something or known something was going on.
unidentified		I have to admit that this last place we went to, I definitely felt something behind me.
		It's an arts and crafts store in Scapoose, Oregon.
		And in going up the stairs to investigate where there had been a lot of noise and a lot of the owner had felt a lot of eerie sensations and heard creaking floorboards and various things.
		Going up the stairs, I had a very strong feeling something was behind me, so I began shooting pictures.
		I got to the top of the stairs, turned around, and just started shooting and picked up this, what looks like a tornado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any sense of why something would be visual to a camera and not the human eye?
unidentified		Yes, a lot of the studies, when you go into some research on that, is apparently these entities are visible in a different portion of electromagnetic spectrum than what we can see.
		And that's why some films, which are more receptive to the higher frequencies, it will develop into.
		Because so many of the things that we, when we're there, I take the electromagnetic readings on a sensor to measure the GOS.
		And I get your normal background rate, and it'll be a 0.1, 0.3.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, is this a magnetometer?
unidentified		Uh-huh.
unidentified		It's very similar to what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's very impressive that you would get those readings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You remember the old Ghostbusters movie?
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were able to trap entities.
		Now, if you're able to measure a magnetic anomaly, you're proving, obviously, something is really going on.
		Something is really happening.
		It's a good backup to the photographic evidence.
		But might it be possible, to an effect, someday, do you think, actually trap an entity?
unidentified		I don't think so at this point.
		And that's because these entities that I can find, because the monitor will jump up to 3, 4.0, 5.0 from a background like 0.1, 0.2.
		And it's there for a while, and all of a sudden it just vanishes.
		It's gone.
		They move very quickly.
		And whether it's moved to a different location or whether it just simply has dissipated out, I don't know.
		But when it's there, it will remain like this one at the largest graph store for every 25 minutes.
		It remained atop a shelf in a box filled with brooms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, what kind of control work do you do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you take the same magnetometer and you put it in a home where there is no reported problem or ghost or anything else, and you run it and graph it for a few days, do you see jumps in magnetic anomaly?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't?
unidentified		No, you get your normal background spikes that you normally get, and almost always the spikes are under 1.0.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, by a factor of many hundreds of percent, it takes a jump.
unidentified		It really does.
unidentified		And the interesting thing is, Art, is that when you get to the center of the anomaly, as you go off to each edge, you maybe only have 12 inches, 15 inches, and it's back down to 0.1.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's a very, very physically small area of magnetic anomaly.
unidentified		Sometimes like the size of a basketball or football.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's really interesting.
unidentified		And they're not shapes like a human-type shape.
		They're just, I guess, for a better description, like a basketball or football inside.
		But you go all the way around them, and you move away 12, 15 inches, it drops right down to essentially zero, the background noise.
		And yet when you go right directly in center, it pops right up to, you know, 400, 500% increase.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything, I've heard many stories, of course, of I'll tell you what, we'll hold this for a break.
		But what I want to ask when I come back, you two, is about the reported chills or cold, even cold to the degree that somebody can see their breath.
		That kind of cold that goes along with the presence of whatever it is we're talking about here.
		Back to Dave Esther and Sharon Gill in Oregon, subjects of hauntings.
		All right, you two, what about this temperature thing?
		Have you measured anything or seen anything there?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		You know, if I regress it, just a minute, Art.
		Sure.
		When we go into a place to investigate, now, we're amateurs, okay?
		We learn all the time every time we do an investigation and we learn a little bit more.
		We take in with us the electromagnetic field meter.
		We take in a sound level meter for measuring your sub-audio ranges and then the higher end.
		We also take in a thermometer that will measure something of a digital readout because you do get a temperature drop or an increase in temperature whenever an entity is present.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Typically one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is there a typical?
unidentified		There isn't really a typical.
		I recall one story when we were down at the Liberty Theater in Astoria that have three ghosts that haunts them.
		And upstairs balcony, in one of the chairs with wooden arms, whenever someone sits in it, those arms get extremely hot.
		So there the temperature increases.
		And yet, down in the basement, when you're down there, and we go down there to change some infrared film, it got extremely cold.
		The point where you felt like the chills were coming on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Let's try this approach.
		When you're getting a high magnetometer reading, the entity is literally over or next to the machine, I would say, correct?
		That's correct.
		At that same point, are you measuring the temperature?
		And if so, how many degrees in differential have you noted?
unidentified		That I haven't done.
		We're so busy tracking the entity so Sherry can start taking pictures.
		Because whenever we get a high reading, then she starts snapping frames.
		And I guess it gets so exciting at that point that we just, we don't get everything down one time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of those people that will call you up and say, look, something's going on in my home, or we think there is a haunting, and you go and investigate, how many times do you find something versus, you know, it being a bust?
unidentified		I'm not certain that we've ever really found a bust.
		There was the one evening that we went down to Sellers Arts and Crafts, and it was real quiet.
		We didn't think, we didn't really pick up anything on the EMF, and I didn't figure I picked up anything on film.
		So we thought, well, we'll try again when the activity picks up.
		That was the night I got the picture of the NFE behind me.
		So, you know, I walked down those same stairs with the EMF meter, found absolutely nothing.
		It's kind of like they can come and go as they want.
		And I think the only time we can find them is when they want us to be found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When they want to be found.
unidentified		When they want to be found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they enjoy people like Dave and Sharon and, ah, some ghost investigators?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's have some fun here.
unidentified		I think sometimes they like attention.
		They're like you and I. Once in a while, you like to have attention given to you.
		But I think also we take an approach to our investigations of respect and reverence toward the entity also.
		Because I think if you're going in with the wrong attitude, it makes a difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
		Brad Steiger did talk about attitude once.
		You may have heard him on my show.
		I bet you did.
		Sure, yeah.
		You remember the story about the ghost with the bad attitude that lifted Brad and several other people up off the floor and let them drop?
		That came from a bad attitude on Brad's part.
		He insulted the ghost.
		All right, very good.
		We're going to talk about the nature of what it is we're facing here when we come back.
		You two rest.
		We've got top-of-the-hour news, and we'll be right back from an area near Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland.
		along the transportation and this station.
unidentified		Music From the Kingdom of Nine, you're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it certainly is.
		Back to Dave Esther and Sharon Gill.
		I don't want to call them ghostbusters because that's what it is tempting to call them, but they're not, because they don't bust ghosts.
		They just investigate them, find that most clients don't want them gone.
		So we'll get back to all that in a moment, talk about what a ghost really is.
		There is a man named John Hanley in Beaverton, Oregon, who runs a very successful home-based computer biz.
		So successful, in fact, that he was the subject of a covert ester and Sharon Gill.
		Are you two still there?
unidentified		We are.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I think one of the most important areas to look at first may be what really is a ghost.
		In other words, I'm a great investigator, and I'm sure you are too, about whether or not we have a life that comes after this one.
		It is probably one of mankind's biggest questions.
		And if there are ghosts, and if they are the remnants of or the soul of a departed person, then that is very important evidence toward that, you know, proving that afterlife.
		On the other hand, if these are fallen angels or some other form of entity that never once was human, it is something else again.
		Which, in your opinion, is it?
unidentified		From the experience that we've had, Art, on the last two years, the so-called ghosts that we work with or investigated and collected stories on have been, for the most part, the departed souls of those that have lived here.
		In fact, they've all been Earth.
		They've all born, raised, and then died here on this planet.
		And when they've died, they've had, for one reason or another, a reason to stay behind.
		Instead of going on toward the light or through the tunnel or whatever maze it is that they access into, they've stayed behind.
		And a lot of them that we've encountered from the stories and from our own investigations have been because of neither they're lost to confused, unresolved issues, or they're watching over someone until they feel it's time to go on.
		They're not, you know, they're not the fallen angels you hear about.
		They're not destructive.
		I guess you work with ghosts who are a lot like people.
		You have good ones and you have bad ones.
		For the most part, do you believe people are good, or the most part, do you believe people are bad?
		And I guess from that standpoint, it's how you kind of evaluate ghosts.
		When we go in, we don't make judgments.
		We're very afraid.
		We go there simply to observe, to document, and to learn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Larry, you tend to come down, both of you, on the side that ghosts or poltergeists are generally friendly or good.
		But you say there are indeed good and bad.
		Now, so many ghosts seem to be manifestations of some tragedy or tragic death.
		Wouldn't these many times be the scarier variety?
		It seems to me.
unidentified		I would think so.
unidentified		Now, sometimes it's difficult not to confuse maybe a ghost that's tormented with maybe residual energy left behind because of sorrow or pain that may be imprinted into the area, which you feel in the form of depressions or anxieties.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how do you delineate?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how do you know whether you're dealing with residual energy or an absolute entity?
unidentified		From our experience, but the only way you can tell is if you have polar dice events take place.
		If pranks are being played, or you notice unusual events taking place, where an imprint of residual energy is always there.
		It doesn't go away.
		And yet, if you have a poltergeist present, almost always it's like they go in cycles.
		There will be a period of time when there's no activity whatsoever, dead as a doornail.
		And then a little while later, it gets very, very active.
		And that dies down and goes dormant.
		That's what's happened at the Earth and Craft Store.
		It has been very quiet for a long period of time.
		And now the activity is slowly picking up again.
		And that was why they called us last week to come in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, last week?
unidentified		Yes.
		Oh, yes.
		And it was just a couple of weeks ago that we were called to a historic house in Columbia City.
		And the people there said that the owners of the house had loved the place so much that they feel that the lady is there because she didn't want to leave.
		She wants to make sure that the house is cared for.
		And the caretakers have seen this woman at her wood stove in the kitchen in her white apron as she did every day of her life cooking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yet people accept this and live with it.
		Now, if I went into my kitchen and I saw a lady there cooking and I knew my wife was in bed, it would bother me a lot.
		I mean, really bother you.
		We can sit here and esoterically talk about these things, but if they actually happen to you, I just don't see how people could keep it together.
unidentified		They called this the Columbia City because the caretaker had gone upstairs to the bedroom to change the quilts on the big feather bed.
		And in doing so, found two imprints on the bed, as though two people had sat on the edge of the bed.
		They didn't panic.
		They called us to come and see what we could find.
		And then said, we hope you don't think we're nuts, but, and then told us what had been happening there.
		And they're very comfortable with it.
		There's no fear there whatsoever.
		Yeah, but we also had a story come to us from Ohio about a lady and her husband had moved in, I moved to Ohio from Seattle for a job transfer, and they built a new house.
		And while he was away on business in February of this year, it was freezing outside, very cold, and she was upstairs and she heard this child crying.
		And so she walked to the edge of the stairs and she seen this little 10 or 12-year-old girl.
		She was dressed in a blue dress and a white apron and white socks and black patent leather shoes, but she had no coat on.
		And so this lady called down and asked her if she wanted to have a coat, thinking it was maybe one of the neighbor's children or something.
		Sure.
		And the little girl just vanished.
		And the woman who contacted us said that she, you know, thought maybe she was losing a little bit, or maybe just having a hard day.
		And then a little while later, she was in the bedroom doing some work, and she heard this little girl crying again.
		So she ran back out to the banister of the stairs and looked down and there was this little girl.
		This time she walked down the stairs, walked up to the girl, and she put her hands out to give her a hug.
		And she was crying.
		And her hands went right through her and she vanished instantly.
		And this continued for a while.
		She thought she was going crazy.
		Added to this, the next time the apparition came, there was an old man dressed in kind of like the attire of the grapes of wrath, with a hammer slung to his side, an old hat he had in his hand.
		It was like a farm laborer of a Depression era.
		And they just kind of stood looking at her.
		And she'd have these visions of them.
		I call them visions because only she could see them.
		Once when she was going to a Christmas party, they were in the back seat, and her husband couldn't see just her.
		She started undergoing psychiatric treatments.
		So she's thinking maybe something was, she really was losing it.
		Well, sure.
		And she called because she'd gotten a copy of the book.
		She'd read it.
		And there were many stories in the book of very similar nature.
		And she realized that she hadn't been going crazy, that these were ghosts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's try this attack.
		You said generally you do not exorcise or attempt to remove these entities, correct?
		That's correct.
		In your description of ghosts in the first place, you describe them as confused, misdirected, Or on a mission, but not necessarily pleased about being earthbound and not having gone on to the light or whatever comes next.
		Would not an exorcism be a compassionate thing to do?
		In other words, when you exorcise a ghost, don't you send it off on the right path?
unidentified		Not if it doesn't want to go.
		You know, the belief systems of ghosts and the belief systems of we humans can be quite a bit different.
		You know, if someone lived, let's say they were a Chinese and they practiced the Buddhist or the Hindu belief system and they died, practicing some type of a Christian exorcism isn't going to make any difference to them because they don't accept that.
		You know, they leave when they want to leave.
		It's been our experience that a lot of times that when they're ready to go, they're ready to go, and just by talking to them, they'll leave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about the famous old movie The Exorcist?
		Based, by the way, I understand, on a true story from St. Louis or the St. Louis area.
		And there, of course, it became possession.
		Have you ever seen an entity move into, or have you investigated, a case of possession?
unidentified		No, we have not.
unidentified		Most of the stories that we've related to you in just the last few minutes are the types of things that we encounter on a daily basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		More the poltergeist kind of deal.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would imply a consciousness because a lot of the kind of things that you've been talking about seem to be practical joke type things, and that would imply that the entity has a sense of humor.
unidentified		Definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Emotions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Consciousness.
unidentified		You know, there are times when if you offend them, that the pranks become more severe than if you don't.
		If you're respectful for them, it seems that they're just, the pranks are like what you'd have from a seven or ten-year-old.
		Just little mischief things.
		Nothing damaging of any kind.
		Just things that are annoying.
		Liberty Theater is a real good example of what David was just expressing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Liberty Theater?
unidentified		Liberty Theater in Astoria.
		Okay.
		If you go in and talk about Paul, which the manager really doesn't like to do because she knows that something will happen if you talk about Paul, ABC News Nightling was in the theater with us.
		We did the filming for the show.
		Before we left the theater, the lady said, I know something's going to happen.
		I just don't know what.
		And sure enough, the next morning they went in and the butter container had exploded to a point where the top had flown off, which they never found, but it hit the chrome around the edge of the counter and bent it halfway up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
unidentified		So it was a real impact, but there was butter everywhere, and that had never happened before.
		And yet when NBC came out and did a story the next morning or the next afternoon when the manager opens up for the evening, the popcorn had already been popped for him.
		There's really no rhyme or reason.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, see, that's an entity with a sense of humor.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Now let's talk about this entity.
		As far as I know, his name was Paul.
		He was a pimp back in the 30s.
		And he had two ladies of the evenings that worked for him, Lily and Mary.
		And he threw one of them off the balcony when she wanted to get out of the business.
		And the other lady got her throat slit in the main theater downstairs.
		And yet these three still continue to haunt there.
		Paul has appeared to not only the manager, but some of the customers at times, and appears as a six-foot man dressed in white, very slim, with a Panama hat, a white tuxedo, and a devilish smile on his face.
		And as soon as you look at him, he grins, and he's gone instantly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll tell you a story in a moment, you two.
		Stand by.
		My guests, Dave Esther, Sharon Gill, the subject, ghosts.
		Right now, the subject is hard water.
		It comes, well, you'll see it on glasses when you try to wash them.
		We're talking about ghosts.
		And again, it is very important, and I take a very serious approach to this topic because I believe there is something to it, as I believe there is something to an afterlife.
		And this is one method, and I particularly enjoy these two because they're doing actual measurements and finding actual differences in magnetic flux fields, and they're finding it in photography and all the rest of it.
		It's a hands-on kind of thing.
		Dave and Sharon, is that the way you decided to follow this as a hands-on kind of operation?
unidentified		Yes.
		When we got into it, first of all, the idea of writing about ghosts and folk which takes place, I kind of got attracted into it.
		I started collecting the strap.
		Really curious.
		Because, like you said before, if a ghost is real of life after they tried to eliminate as much as we could that could be explained by, for example, if you're on medication and you've seen something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		You're sick.
		You know, something obviously that may be induced because of health or medication.
		But those stories where the individuals were not on a medication, they were not ill, they were sane, started to repeat themselves over and over again.
		So you developed a point of a common thread started running through all the stories.
		And that common thread kept saying, they're real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You mentioned a pimp and a couple of prostitutes.
		Here in the state of Nevada, where I live, prostitution is a legal business in many counties.
		My county happens to Be one of them, my county, Nye County.
		And there are two houses here, which I won't even bother to name, but they have been haunted for many years by a ghost named Harold.
		And why do you suppose, either one of you who wants to answer this, that this kind of business, I hope that isn't coming toward you.
		That this kind of business seems to draw that kind of entity to it.
		What is it about that business?
		Any ideas?
unidentified		Maybe it's not so much the business art as it is the energy that they feel there.
		It's been our experience that if you have a household with a lot of turmoil and distress or anger, resentments, they're going to draw in a gulch that feeds on that.
		And the repercussions that you get back are the more violent ones.
		If you have a family that's, I won't say normal, but has positive energy flow coming from it, whether it controls their feelings or emotions, they tend to draw in the entities that feel on that type of positiveness.
		And perhaps in those establishments you have there, there's some type of an energy feel that Harold enjoys being around.
		He feeds upon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When we come back here after the break at the bottom of the hour, I would like to ask, and in fact I will right now, both of you individually, has there been any time when you've been investigating something and it has scared the hell out of you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's just...
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		No doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, then we will come back.
		Good.
		I mean, that's really good.
		That's healthy.
		And I can't imagine working in that field and not being scared.
		So we'll find out what it is that scared them the most and take your calls when we come back from an area near the infamous Dreamland.
		is Dreamland.
unidentified		From the Kingdom of Nive, we continue with your calls on Greenland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now once again, here I am.
		Good evening, everybody.
		This is Dreamland.
		Dave, Esther, and Sharon Gill are my guests.
		They've written a book called Twilight Visitors.
		It is a compilation of many, many ghost stories.
		And they are not ghostbusters, but ghost, well, buddies would be closer to it, I guess.
		And we'll get back to them in just one moment.
		Well, no, let's do it now.
		As a matter of fact, I've got several faxes in already, you two.
		And so let me hit you with some rapid-fire questions.
		From Phillipsburg, Pennsylvania, somebody wants to know about altered states.
		You know what a psychomantium is, I presume.
		Yeah.
		A sensory deprivation chamber.
		Would this kind of thing, in your opinion, lead to the likelihood of being able to make contact with entities?
		In other words, altered states.
unidentified		That's a good question.
		You know, when you get into the state that we're like over the shamans get into to access the higher regions of the mind, I can't answer.
		I really don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fair.
unidentified		I mean, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's fair.
		Have you ever recorded any phantom audio from a mic in an empty room?
		This one actually comes from my engineer up at the network, Brian.
		In other words, have you ever put a microphone in there?
		We all know that sometimes voices show up on tapes.
unidentified		Right, I haven't, but I've had reports in from people who have done that.
		I haven't asked for copies of the audio yet, but they have said they have captured on that.
		We do take a tape recorder with us.
		Most of the time, it's too noisy when we're there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you guys are making noise?
unidentified		No, normally the family or whoever's living there is so excited about the investigation, they just jabber on and on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Well, that would make sense.
		All right.
		Now, I asked you prior to the break, what has really truly scared you?
		And you might both want to respond individually or together.
		I don't know.
unidentified		We'll do it individually.
		Well, I can honestly say that the most hair raising experience I had was at the Liberty Theater in Astoria.
		And the manager told us that she would take us on a tour under the stage.
		Now, this building opened for their first opera in 1925, so it's quite old.
		And it's like stepping back in time when you go through the front doors.
		The air is different.
		The atmosphere is totally different, like you stepped into another dimension or something.
		And going under the stage, the walls are signed by people like Al Capone.
		It was quite a prominent theater in its time.
		And there were a lot of famous people that attended various shows.
		But going under the stage, it was not only Dark, it was eerie, the air was heavy.
		It was a real strange feeling, a place that the further down you went, the more you didn't feel like you wanted to be there.
		As you go further under the stage, there are tunnels that run like a maze under the town.
		It's like a town built on a town because the town has actually burned to the ground a couple of times.
		But it was a place that made me feel very uncomfortable, and I told Dave that I felt like we probably need to go back upstairs because it didn't make me feel good at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Dave?
unidentified		Mine also occurred in the same building.
		I had to take the camera down into what they call the ice room where they keep the ice machine.
		And that is the domain that Paul hangs out in.
		And one of the previous employees had blocked open the door with a five-gallon paint can, a bucket in actuality.
		And while she was getting the ice, Paul moved that five-gallon bucket and slammed the door shut on her and locked her in.
		There's no lights in that room.
		It's pitch black.
		And so that's the room I chose to go into because I had to change the infrared, which, as you know, has to be done in total blackness.
		And so I walked in at probably about 15 feet to the table and then I had the door closed and walked the table and I unloaded the infrared that was in there and loaded some more.
		And as I turned to leave, I literally felt a cold air, a breath of cold air on the back of my neck.
		My hair, the back of my neck, literally stood up, just like I'd see in the movies or something.
		And I was thinking, my gosh, this can't be happening.
		And it was everything I could do to keep from turning around because I did not want to know what was behind me.
		I couldn't see it, but I just didn't want to know.
		I walked as fast as I could to the door because it just really, it chilled me to the bones.
		And I've been to Vietnam.
		I've been around.
		That's the first time that I was literally frightened so deeply of something that I couldn't see.
		When ABC was out, we had a cinematographer with us who was a correspondent during the Vietnam War.
		And this man did not want to be left alone in any part of the theater.
		And they walked bravely in, but when we were ready to leave, they were firm believers that something was going on in that building.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are many stories.
		I too, thank you very much, was in Vietnam.
		And there are many stories about not just Vietnam, but most wars regarding hauntings.
		And again, of course, in wars, you tend to get people killed in great moments of stress of various kinds.
		And those sorts of deaths do lead to hauntings, don't they?
unidentified		Yes, they do.
		Well, exactly, when we say haunting, no, these people, like the story you have in the book about the Vietnam vet and his fallen comrades.
		And when each one, after a firefight, each one of them came back and made him promise to fulfill some obligation.
		And at a time, he didn't realize they were dead.
		They looked just like you and I did.
		And when he discovered they were dead, he took him 25 years to fulfill his commitment of his promises to them.
		There are times when these entities will appear in human form, just like they did in real life.
		And there are other times where you simply don't see them.
		They're a mist or a cloud or simply a feeling you get, sensation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That it's very confusing, and it makes you wonder whether you're dealing with sort of a remnant of a soul or remnant of something, a person, or you're actually dealing with their soul, which is trapped here on Earth.
		Or maybe a little bit of both.
		The whole area is fascinating and confusing.
		And let's take a few phone calls.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, is somebody speaking there?
unidentified		Oh, I didn't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I thought you were recording.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, turn your radio off, dear.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		David, turn it off for me, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, David, turn it off.
unidentified		I just think this program is absolutely fantastic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		You're welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Am I speaking to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		All of us.
unidentified		I'm in Texas at the moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Texas, all right?
unidentified		Yes.
		And I just came back from Europe.
		I lived there.
		I came back about two days ago, and my uncle died.
		And I'm a journalist, but I don't want to mention that.
		I don't know if it's on now or not.
		It's not, is it?
		I'm just getting screened, am I not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we don't screen calls here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Am I on the air?
unidentified		Okay, I didn't notice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when I say, when I picked up the line, I said you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an important cue line.
unidentified		I understand.
		Okay, fine.
		Anyway, ever since I was a child, I had these feelings.
		I could see spirits, for example, or people on the other side.
		And when I was a little girl, I remember waking up and seeing these people in my room.
		And of course, I went to my father and told my father, when you're three and a half years old, what father pays attention to a child that's three and a half and is watching a Dallas football game?
		So, and now this year, after I'm 40 now, so this year, I talked to my next door neighbor and I asked her, because I'd heard that she talked about these ghost stories and they were ghosts there, and I explained how these people looked like.
		And she told me, you couldn't know them because you didn't move in at the time when this man died.
		So evidently I saw the man, you know, that used to live there, not in the house, but the house next door as a child.
		And now it's 1995, and are you still there?
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Oh, okay, fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's 1995.
unidentified		It's fine, yeah.
		It's 1995, and of course, I can see the other side.
		It's very easy, but it's very difficult sometimes, too.
		It's like a television set.
		You turn it on and off, you turn the loudness, sometimes it's too loud, sometimes it's too less.
		But my uncle died three days ago, that's why I came back.
		And in Germany, he came to visit me.
		And he said to me goodbye, and he talked about my aunt, and then he left.
		And I had another miracle story.
		My nephew was also beaten with a baseball bat here in Texas.
		And anyway, the priest came in and said he was not going to live.
		I mean, the doctor said he wasn't going to live, and the priest said goodbye and so forth.
		And I prayed, and my message from the angels were, he's going to live, he's going to talk, and he's going to walk.
		Whereas the doctor said, he's not going to live.
		He's probably going to die in the next few days.
		He won't ever be able to talk or walk.
		And my message was, yes, he will.
		So I called my brother and told him my message because they know me.
		And anyway, after some time of saying that he's going to die, he's going to die, he's going to die.
		Two weeks ago, I talked to them again.
		And they said that he woke out, he got out of the coma.
		And the first things he said was, I visited my aunt in Germany.
		And as I was praying for him, I could feel him, and I could basically smell him in Germany.
		And I told him, well, John, you know what?
		You've got to go back to your body.
		It's not your time.
		Go back.
		And I didn't know this, but I found this out later.
		A friend of this died a week before.
		And these are young kids, okay?
		And I said to this boy, I said, well, God bless you.
		May you go to God's hands.
		Well, anyway, like I said, I talked to my sister-in-law, and she told me, well, Anna, you just can't believe what happened here.
		And I said, what happened?
		Oh, gosh.
		Is he alive?
		What's wrong?
		She said, no.
		He woke out of the coma, and the first thing he said was, I visited Aunt Anna, and by the way, she was fighting terribly with my friend.
		And I said, I was fighting terribly with his friend?
		I said, no, no, no, wait a minute.
		I prayed for him.
		She said, no, but he saw that as an argument.
		And in a way, it was true.
		It probably looked like an argument because I told his friend to go because he wanted my nephew to stay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Listen, we've got to run to here, but thank you very much for the story.
		And here's what it makes me want to ask you two.
		You have taken pictures of ghosts or entities.
		Is it not possible that people like this lady, our brain is a fantastically complicated thing, making the best Pentium running right now look silly?
		We don't understand all about our brain.
		Is it not possible that some people like this lady are able to see what you can only occasionally catch in photographs?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		Yeah, there's probably many cases like hers recorded where a person is able to see into the spiritual realm.
		Their brains, their eyes are seeing into a frequency range that most of us aren't able to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
unidentified		And children, overall, at a young age, are able to see into the infrared range, where we as adults have grown so far past that that we've lost the ability.
unidentified		Animals, cats especially, react.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is true about cats.
		You two.
		Hold on just a moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		I have cats, and I can certainly confirm that.
		Cats are very sensitive to areas and things that we know nothing about.
		Can't hear, can't feel, can't see.
		I don't know what that says about cats, but I believe it to be true.
		Now, I also believe to be true essentially what that lady said, and they just affirmed, that there are people that can see things that have developed, in effect, an ability that the rest of us, through the noise of everyday living, have essentially simply forgotten about.
		We'll be right back.
		How many of you two still there?
unidentified		We are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are.
		All right, good.
		Here we go back to it again.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
unidentified		Hi, good morning, Art.
		I'm glad I finally got through.
		This is Bob of St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi, Bob.
unidentified		And I have a story from about 15 years ago.
		My mom had died when I was just before I graduated from high school, and she died on a Saturday.
		And on Monday morning was her wake.
		And I usually set my alarm for 7 o'clock at that time.
		And about 6.59, a voice rang out of my room.
		And I'm a very sound sleeper.
		And it really is hard for me to get up.
		And it said, Bob, wake up.
		and it was really loud and very distinct, and there was neither a female or a female.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did your guests get started this field?
		Larry, in Miami, Florida.
		Well, Larry, as usual, the answer was in the first part of the program, and it was because of their very own haunted house.
		At any rate, we're going to try and bear down hard on your calls this hour.
		Dave and Jaron, are you there?
unidentified		We are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Look, I would like to give you guys an opportunity to promote your book a little bit.
		If people wish to get Twilight visitors, how many ghost stories are in here?
unidentified		There are 70 ghost stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		70.
unidentified		And everyone's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And everyone's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would they get the book?
unidentified		They can call 1-800-WEIRD94.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1-800-WEIRD94.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a pretty good number.
unidentified		We thought so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it that you established it in 1994.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1-800-WEIRD94.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much is your book?
unidentified		$13.95.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very reasonable indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can you say, you say every one of these is true?
unidentified		They're allegedly true.
		The stories that they've been given to us are alleged to have happened to the individuals.
		And talking to the individuals, our feelings are that what has happened has happened to them.
		Because they get very serious.
		It's like the gentleman just called about that voice.
		Right.
		It's not something you forget.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		I know.
		To me, it is a very serious subject, and I treat it seriously.
		A lot of people use this for a good laugh tag line at the end of a newscast or something.
		This is a very serious subject to me, as a matter of fact.
		All right, let's go back to the lines.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
unidentified		Let me turn the radio down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do that.
unidentified		Tell us, where are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm calling from Pennsylvania.
		All right.
		When I was about 13, not quite 14 years old, we had moved into a new neighborhood.
		And after living there about two weeks, I was walking home.
		And I was going up a street on my way home.
		And there was a house to my left, single-story house.
		And the porch light was on.
		There were still curtains in the window.
		And I saw coming down the hill toward me what appeared to be a transparent lady.
		She had sort of a yellowish-green glow to her.
		And I remember her in exact detail, the hobble, how she hobbled as she walked, the type of dress she wore, how she wore her hair.
		And this woman walked around me in a circle three times, kind of hobbled.
		And I'm turning around, following her.
		And I'm in amazement.
		I'm thinking to myself, I wonder if this is what a ghost is supposed to be.
		Finally, the lady stops.
		She stares at me.
		She turns, hobbles up the hill, goes through the wall, and to the house.
		So the next day, I stop at my friend's house, and he's not there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you say goes through the wall?
unidentified		Went right through the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Now, the thing is, is that my friend's aunt's house was right across the street from this place.
		When I told her what I saw, she was ironing clothes at the time, and she looked at me and she gasped, and she said, you're just trying to scare me.
		And I said, what do you mean?
		And she said, oh, that's right.
		She said, Maddie died two weeks before you guys moved into the neighborhood.
		I described in complete detail the woman who had just died.
		Now, they hadn't settled the estate, and I kind of wondered for a long time why that might have happened, and I think I figured it out.
		Now, sometime after that, my younger brother fell in with some kids, and they got into trouble, and they broke into that house, and they stole some jewelry and stuff, and they were all caught, and it was all returned.
		The only thing I can think of is that maybe in wanting to protect her house, maybe she knew somehow or other that that was going to happen, or she feared it, or maybe she felt that I would tell other people what I had seen, and it would scare children away.
		But of course, I never said anything to anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, typical, you two?
unidentified		Yes, it is.
unidentified		It shows very much a protective, you know, when an older lady passes on, she still is very concerned about her possessions, her home, her things, until they're resolved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, in the near afterlife, our concerns are very much like they were here.
unidentified		Yeah, there are several stories we get where it's almost like when you die, you don't know you're dead.
unidentified		You know, you're still going on conducting your business as you would normally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be very confusing.
unidentified		I'm sure, because if you watch and read a lot, a lot of stories have been documented where someone's died and has communicated with someone, or there's been a multi-car accident, and one has come back and the other ones have not.
		And they all say the same thing.
		They didn't realize they were dead.
		They couldn't believe it, couldn't accept it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe because of the instant nature of it.
unidentified		I'm sure.
		You know, as far as passing through the house, you know, if they're an electromagnetic energy field, why not?
		There's so much we do not understand about energy, you know, pure energy, that there's no way that we can get a handle of so much of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me ask either one of you about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you say it is a good idea, doesn't matter, or a terrible idea to build a house on top of a graveyard?
unidentified		A terrible idea.
		I think you could probably expect about the worst.
		I know that out here in Oregon, a lot of places are built on Indian burial ground, sacred ground, and we don't know exactly where these places were, but the people whose homes are on this hollow ground do experience some very strange phenomena.
		Well, even worse than that, Noah, we had a nuclear plant built up here along the Columbia River by a major international company, and it was built on sacred Indian burial ground.
		They hid the fact.
		Besides the fault line, we'll talk about that.
		But they excavate the bones and artifacts and kept it hid from the public.
		That nuclear facility is no longer online.
		It was plagued from the day one that it was dealt with problems, substandard material.
		It just had nothing but problems.
		It only ran for a couple years before it was finally, you know.
		I mean, it was always the offline more than it was online.
		And, you know, I've never really given it much thought to your question there.
		Perhaps by being built on the sacred burial grounds, there's a lot of restless spirits who really resented what was being done.
		I mean, you never can tell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would seem a poor idea to me.
		And again, I'm going back to Poltergeist or Poltergeist II, I can't recall.
		but it was awful i remember the uh...
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would never have made it out of the swimming pool.
		My heart would have stopped in there.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, this is Fritz from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Fritz from Phoenix.
unidentified		Well, mine is more like a statement.
		It's very unfortunate that we, the Western civilization, focus on the other side only on a large scale on Halloween.
		That's with fun and customs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, but Fritz, you know I do it all the time.
unidentified		Well, but yes, the Ardell Show, but I'm talking the major part of our civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's a good point, Fritz.
unidentified		But yet, ghost spirits on the afterlife, the way I see it, should be and will be in years to come, and I'm talking after the earth changes, that the subject will be handled like a daily weather report, very respectfully, because it's here and we have to deal with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they'll change the name from Nightline to Night Spirit.
		I don't know.
		He does really make a good point.
		I consider this to be a very, very serious topic, and I take it seriously.
		And as Fritz points out, the rest of the nation focuses in on, you know, Halloween one time a year, perhaps.
unidentified		There's a holiday setting for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And not really so much on the aspect that we cover, the real aspect of entities or ghosts or whatever they are, but sort of the dress up and go get candy aspect or the let's go look at the fireworks.
		Well, that'd be for July.
		But getting my holidays mixed up here.
		But the mask and the candy business and all the rest of it instead of this aspect.
unidentified		Well, you know, there is a different aspect of it over in the Orient, you know, where they honor their ancestors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And there are many of the Eastern folks over there, Asians, that, you know, believe their ancestors are there with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I lived on the island of Okinawa, and there is an interesting custom they have, which I got to participate in once, where at a certain time of the year, you go to a cave or a location and you reverently clean the bones of your dead ancestors.
		And that makes me ask again about the link between the place of burial and the entities.
		In other words, try not to build on top of a graveyard of some sort.
		Is it generally true that entities stay close to what was their body?
unidentified		But that's hard to tell because when you become a spirit, you know, you're outside of the realm of space and time you have it.
		You operate in a different environment.
		And whether they can be next to their bones and instantly they can be, you know, a thousand miles away, we really don't know because there are so many that do come and go as transients, always in motion.
		But yet around graveyards there is a lot of activities.
		And whether these are just the new ones that have come and haven't quite gained the knowledge they need to continue on, or whether they, because the graveyard is close to where their home and families are, they stay behind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's hard to really know which.
unidentified		It's almost like talking about aliens.
unidentified		You know, you have the different races you hear about, and some are good, some are bad, some are helpful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Dave, I'm not even sure, then, Sharon, that there is a difference between what we're calling aliens and what you're calling ghosts.
unidentified		In some cases, there may not be.
		They're on-seen entities or on-seen.
		The Twilight visitors who come and go.
		Some are helpful.
		And some, depending upon how they're helping you, some will call our guardian angel or guardian spirit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, might it not, though, depend on your perspective as an individual?
		Let us say you have an experience and you see an entity.
		Some people might come away from that and say, I saw an alien.
		I saw something not of Earth.
		And another person might come back and say, well, I saw a ghost.
		Or I saw Aunt Mary or my grandmother or whatever.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		It is all a matter of a person's perspective.
		Because we have stories of very protective entities who've taken care of children.
		And yet some people would label them as guardian angels.
		And yet you have others, like this energy vortex was sending you a picture of?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I mean, my goodness, how can a ghost be like a funnel cloud?
		I mean, you can understand a mislike cloud or something, or fog, because that's been portrayed quite often, but a spin, a twirling funnel shape.
		Now, in the Liberty theater, we captured on film there a reverse spin vortex, where the spin was reverse of how it normally would be.
		And it was like the letter U. It went down, over, and then back up again.
		Where this one we captured just last week starts from the floor and goes toward the ceiling, kind of bends along the way, but there's also a shadow that's cast from it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you have a photographic expert look at these, what do they say?
unidentified		Well, the first, when they look at it, the first reaction is that it's a chemical problem or a developing problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Well, then we show them the negative.
		And you don't have, it's not characteristic of a chemical stain.
		Okay, it's right in the film itself.
		And you can see both the vortex, you can see the shadow.
		Where in a normal chemical stain from developing, it's quite apparent if you look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you two.
		Hold on just a moment.
		We will be right back to you.
		Dave Esther, Sharon Gill are my guests.
		They have written Twilight Visitors, a compilation of 70 true ghost stories.
		We'll be right back.
		If you feel the desire to control your own work hours, your work environment, be your own boss, choose your own work companions, then maybe you need to start your own business.
		Now, briefly, before the bottom of the hour, back to Dave and Sharon.
		Okay, you two, you're back on the air again.
		Okay.
		I'm glad that you are doing what you're doing.
		Very glad because there are not enough people documenting this kind of thing.
		It's one of the reasons we put out the newsletter we do.
		You know, you talk about them on the radio, and it's great.
		It's the theater of the mind, and we can, you know, tell people about these things.
		But once you've laid your eyes on a photograph or had an actual experience, it's a whole new realm, isn't it?
unidentified		It really is.
unidentified		And we really enjoy your newsletter, you know, because when you can visually observe an image, there's no doubt About what it is that you're looking at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if there is, there certainly is less doubt.
		I mean, words are one thing.
		Photographs, magnetometer readings, there's something else again.
		And it's a particular area of interest to me because I want to know myself, as you two do, I'm sure, whether this life is it, and then it's the worms crawl in and the worms crawl out, or whether it doesn't matter and your spirit goes someplace else.
unidentified		We both firmly believe that life goes on.
		It goes back to the law of physics.
		You know, no energy can be destroyed.
		Only transformed.
		And so, and, you know, we've, in the 70 stories we've collected, the first, we're working on our second book, collecting stories.
		We've probably got as many stories right now as we have in the first book.
		But they're more in-depth stories.
		We're getting a lot of people contributing stories to us off the internet.
		Sending a story through the email.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll get your email address on the air.
		We're at the half-hour mark.
		This is Dreamland.
		All right.
		Back now to Dave and Sharon.
		Are you there?
		We are.
		Art, could you ask your guests whether they think it is possible that certain locations on Earth are innately paranormally energized apart from any human influences past or present?
unidentified		Yes, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, energy, I don't know what you'd call them, energy points?
unidentified		Yeah, grid points, energy points.
		Now that you've got your famous ones like Sedona, you know, where is reputed to be, you know, a healing capital, an energy dispersion point.
		There's quite a few of those places that just naturally radiates the energy of a very positive force.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do like staying on the positive side of this, don't you?
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
		You can see all kinds of Freddy Krueger movies on TV.
		We don't do those kinds of stories.
		We do the kind of stories that you can sit and tell around a campfire and enjoy getting scared.
		Well, that's interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do enjoy.
		Have you studied at all why human beings enjoy scaring themselves so much?
		I wonder about it.
unidentified		I know, but I've got a letter, Art.
		This is from a funeral director back in Pennsylvania.
		Oh.
		And he said, just in part, he says, I'm just glad that someone finally took me seriously.
		I don't know if you have any idea what the burden of disbelief can do to a person's life.
		He'd seen a, actually he'd heard a ghost, and no one would believe him.
		And being a funeral director, your first impressions would be, why would that be strange?
		Right.
		At least I'd feel that way.
		And yet to him it was.
		And by being able to tell me a story, he actually felt better at it because someone took him seriously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's cathartic, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would think funeral directors would be particularly plagued or blessed, depending on how you look at it.
unidentified		Well, there's one area in one of the towns that is located next to a funeral home, a neighborhood, and we've gotten three different stories from that neighborhood over a different period of time.
		From each house, you can throw a stone to the other houses.
		Right.
		And it's just above a funeral home.
		And we often wonder whether or not the entities and apparitions that have come to those people have come from the funeral home or just that's a coincidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		Is there any difference?
		This is kind of a wild question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
		In the hauntings that occur in cases where bodies are buried somewhere versus cremation?
unidentified		I don't think so.
		That's just my personal opinion.
		Because whether you burn a body or whether it decays back to the earth, the energy, the essence made up of that individual, is transformed at death into whatever energy fields that exist.
		So you cannot destroy the energy, matter.
		You can only transform it to a different form.
		So it's actually only the body that dies away.
		And not the essence of the soul or the spirit doesn't die.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if the spirit remains sometimes near the body, as in the case of a graveyard, would the spirit remain near the ashes in the case of an urn?
unidentified		It could very well, because perhaps it's a resting place for memories.
		And perhaps that's all they are to the ghost, are memories of who they once were.
		That may be.
		Now, we did hear a tale about an inn in Long Beach, Washington, where there's a lot of ghostly activity, and the owner, the previous owner's urn, with his ashes, still sits on the bar.
		That one we have yet to follow up on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I'm sure.
		What do you do, by the way, on that score?
		I mean, people read your books, and then I take it, they contact you, and they want you to come and investigate.
		What kind of criterion do you use in trying to decide, you know, we're going to take a trip to Pittsburgh and take a look at this house or whatever?
unidentified		A lot of times we try to line up sightings in a general area that we're going to go to.
		Often times it's a story, how compelling is it?
		In our book, in the last three chapters, we talk about how to do your own ghost hunting, type of film to use, type of equipment you can use, hopefully to help others who want to explore the unknown to start out with.
		And even if you can't buy some type of electromagnetic meter, you can start out with a compass.
		Essentially, the same thing will work for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if there is a sudden magnetic flux, the compass is going to be overwhelmed from its normal north pole look-see, and it's going to point in a new direction.
unidentified		Yeah, and depending upon how much it points, is how strong the field is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And not bad in the sense also that it would show you the direction of the magnetic radiation.
unidentified		Yeah, and so you actually can home in, track it down, which is the same thing I do with the magnetic meter.
		You have to keep moving around to pick up a field and then home in on it.
		You do the same thing with a compass.
		And we talked about the type of films you can use to buy, and which are some are better than others.
		and the cameras themselves really doesn't make any difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've had the one lady who Let's say somebody wants to go ghost hunting.
		Would they be better with higher ASA film?
		Or what seems to work better in catching the image?
unidentified		The higher the ASA they can go, the better.
		Now, we've tried as high as 3,200 ASA, black and white.
		Right.
		And I believe it was neither the 3,200 or the 1600 that we captured an image in the Liberty theater.
		But Sharon also has captured it on ASA 400.
		We used infrared, and we've captured sometimes we've captured on that.
		But infrared is real difficult to work with, and it's real difficult to get processed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's go back to the phones.
		I did want to get that cleared up.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, how's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Willoughby, Ohio.
		This is Les.
		Okay.
		And I wanted to say this is really an interesting program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I have actually two questions for you.
		Or one question and one story.
		I would really like to find a ghost.
		Seriously.
		I mean, I might be crazy, but I really would like to do that.
		How do you go about finding someplace that's haunted?
		In our experience, we've just started talking to people about our own experiences.
		And overall, I can honestly say that just about everyone we've talked to have had some type of experience.
		And we have made contact with people who have activity in their homes at the present time.
		And when we tell them what we do, they invite us to come into their home and see what we can find.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's because you guys write books about it, and so you get contacts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But what about this fellow?
unidentified		Actually, that was how we got started on our first book, was speaking of our own experiences with other people.
		And I always say just go out and start asking people, friends and neighbors and relatives that you have in the area that you're in, if they've had any type of unusual experiences or paranormal events have occurred in their home.
		And a lot of times older buildings will have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there you are, Caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, ask friends.
unidentified		All right.
		Well, the only thing that I've ever had that would be, quote unquote, a paranormal experience has happened to me three times.
		When my brother died, when my two, my grandmother died and my grandfather died.
		Each time when they died and I was asleep, I woke up immediately at the time that they died.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		knowing something or?
unidentified		I didn't know that they were at the time until I found out, you know, usually half an hour to 45 minutes later, someone would call me from the hospital and say, you know, so-and-so just died, you know, half an hour ago, 45 minutes ago.
unidentified		And so I really would like to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so that's good advice then for anybody.
unidentified		Yes, it is.
		I just know when you start it, have an open mind and don't be judgmental.
		Don't judge what you observe because we may not understand why they're performing it or why they're doing it.
		It's like when you go overseas.
		You can't judge the culture that you visit by your own standards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, isn't that so?
unidentified		You know, and that's one of the first things you have to learn.
		And I think they can sense that.
		If you're not coming in a judgmental attitude, but an openness to understand, I think it opens the doors for you.
		I really do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then you also stressed attitude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, be respectful, be reverential, do not insult the entity.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		The same way if you walk into, for example, the Alamo in San Antonio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		There's no signs that's required.
		But you walk in there, and that's probably one of the most reverential places I've ever been in.
		You can hear a pin drop inside.
		And there are, you know, 40, 50 people in there.
		But everybody feels that reverence is there, respecting what has occurred there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dave and Sharon on Dreamland.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I'm calling from Seattle, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		And Dave and Sharon, I thought I might let you know that I was in the basement of your 12th Avenue home in Seaside just today.
		Oh.
		Don't want it.
		And I, did you know that there were children actually, were children haunting the basement?
		Yeah, we had children down there.
		Okay.
		Yeah.
		And I do apologize if you get a call from the new resident because we were just going to Seaside, had stayed only three blocks from your house, had drove to Cannon Beach, picked up your book, and found it interesting, went back to Seaside just to look at the house, found the new residents outside that do not know that it was haunted.
		And we showed them the book, their jaw dropped.
		They said, yes, that is our basement.
		So they took us downstairs.
		It's now a child's room.
		Oh, perfect.
		Yeah, and they have not had any culturegeist activity there whatsoever.
		But maybe they haven't heard of it, or maybe it's calmed down, or maybe if there's a child with the children, I don't know if that would make a difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or maybe the entities left when Dave and Sharon did.
unidentified		No, actually they did.
		And we do have pictures in the book of the people who moved in after us.
		They took pictures on Halloween night of their grandchildren dressed up, and they do have a film around them, a mist.
		We did see those pictures in the book, yes.
		We do.
		And she has a story in there about having a low child's voice respond back to my question of whether my daughter was down in the basement.
		Yes.
		You know, it was just as real.
		It was a real low girl's voice.
		We found this all very interesting because we picked up your book, read half of it, turned to our bell tonight, and then heard you.
		But we'd also like to say that we followed some of your stories, and we followed them all the way up to Astoria, where we did go to the Liberty Theater.
		And I do have to agree with you, And I have one question about the theater.
		I do feel things.
		And when I went into the theater, I felt three separate entities.
		And I was very scared.
		But the theater people were very nice and let us even sit in the seat where Lily was killed.
		I felt great anger in the room for us being there, and I left.
		Went upstairs and did feel something that I guess was Mary.
		I felt her about the point in the book that you said she'd be halfway up the ramp, but I had not read that yet in your book.
		And then when I read it, I realized that that was where you felt it, too.
		We went back to take a picture of the bathroom, because we did take a picture of the theater.
		I was with my boyfriend.
		He asked that we go back.
		We went back and I didn't feel her in the bathroom this time, but I did feel her behind me, and I did sort of hear voices.
		I'm wondering if there ever were voices heard from the entities that are in the Liberty Theater.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		There are.
		Oh, there are.
		Yeah, they've heard voices.
		they haven't seen uh...
		i believe it the fact that he's all three of them and they've heard voices at different times but it's Definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can just feel it, all right.
		I know the feeling.
		I have never, you know, I've seen one UFO.
		I've never seen a ghost.
		I have never seen an entity of any sort, but I would love to.
		So I'm in the category of that one man who called.
		And I am, I suppose, curious enough to follow up if there are any haunted houses out there or anybody who regularly gets a visit from a ghost.
		I would love to be contacted.
		All right.
		I want to remind everybody as well, tomorrow night on my regular syndicated program, we do something utterly different.
		It's called Ghost to Ghost.
		It, too, is a very, very serious approach to this whole matter of entities and ghosts.
		We do it every Halloween.
		It is not a joke show.
		It's not a fun show.
		I'm not going to be putting in a bunch of little sound effects and all the rest of it.
		We take a very serious, I take and expect you to take a very serious approach to these matters.
		They are serious because I believe they are real.
		So if you're interested, don't forget tomorrow night, Ghost to Ghost AM.
		That's about as much humor as you're probably going to find in it.
		It is, however, frightening.
		And for some reason, we human beings really enjoy scaring the hell out of each other.
		So it's a great opportunity for that.
		You guys, I want to give you a chance.
		The moments are closing.
		Twilight Visitors is the name of your book.
		Ghost Tales, 70 of them right now.
		How do they get the book one more time?
unidentified		They will call 1-800-WEIRD94.
unidentified		And we'd also like, if any of the listeners have stories, we'd like, you know, if they'd like to share them with us, we'd be more than happy to consider them in our next book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, and where would they send them?
unidentified		They can send them to post office box 976, St. Helens, S-H-E-L-E-N-S, Oregon.
unidentified		And the zip is 97051.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
unidentified		Or if they're on email, they can email me the story at StarWest as one word at a1.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		StarWest at a1.com.
		Right.
		Well, it has been a pleasure having you both on, and I like the approach you take to the topic.
		It's a good hands-on hardware kind of approach, and we will do another show, all right?
unidentified		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you both, and good night from the high desert.
		No, there you are.
		Dave Esther, Sharon Gill, Twilight Visitors.
		Now, again, I want to say this because it is deadline time right now.
		If you want our newsletter where you will continually see this kind of thing documented, I'm very intent on that so that you don't have to just believe what I'm telling you.
		You can see for yourself.
		Art Bell after dark, the newsletter.
		It's got to be ordered before the sun comes up in the morning.
		It's not after dark then, you see.
		The deadline is now 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278 from the high desert near Dreamland.
		Good night.
		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not matched.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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