Brad Steiger and Linda Moulton Howe debate the 1995 "humanoid autopsy" mystery, where a cameraman’s survival remains disputed despite conflicting reports—his office claims he’s alive under deep cover, while others suggest death. Bob Schell reveals CIA-linked "six-fingered neuron panels" from the 1960s, defying replication, and Steiger links them to multidimensional beings. Steiger recounts childhood encounters with reptilian-eyed entities and time-slip phenomena, like a woman meeting a verified past administrator. He dismisses literal apocalypse claims, framing global chaos as part of humanity’s spiritual evolution from Homo sapiens to Homo spiritus, urging meditation and discernment over blind trust in paranormal forces. [Automatically generated summary]
Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
Another Sunday night, another Dreamland.
Good evening, everybody.
I'm Marcelle.
I'll give you a thumbnail sketch of what's coming up tonight.
First, of course, the world's expert, well-acknowledged world's expert on crop circles, animal mutilations, and an extending field.
That's Linda Howe.
She'll be coming to us from Philadelphia.
Then, a man who has written over 100 books, the latest of which is called The Awful Thing in the Attic.
I thought they were generally in the cellar, but this one definitely is in the attic.
We'll find out.
Brad Steiger.
A well-known Brad Steiger is going to be my guest.
And so that's kind of a little bit of an idea of what's coming up.
Let me take care of a couple of items right up front.
We all know that information is what it's all about.
I just got in about an hour ago from North Haven, Connecticut, where the Omega conference was held with Stanton Friedman and Jacques Belay from California, myself, and others, discussing a variety of phenomena, including the current humanoid autopsy controversy.
And last night, there was considerable conversation about whether the cameraman died on August 3rd, 1995 in Los Angeles.
A man that matches the name that Santilli had originally given researchers may have died.
But I talked with Santilli's office as recently as Thursday, and they said that as far as they were concerned, the cameraman they're dealing with is alive and is under deep cover to protect himself and his family.
Yes, they were telling me on Thursday and part of the conversation and trying to clarify is this man alive or not.
I also talked with Bob Schell in Washington.
And he had a very interesting comment to make about his own feelers into the intelligence community.
He worked 30 years ago in the Central Intelligence Agency as a zoologist biologist on things that would be related to biochemical warfare, or at least the research into those matters.
And he says with great firmness that he has not worked for the agency for 30 years, but many of these men do keep friendships with some of the people that they worked with.
And I'm now going to play you an excerpt of one of his conversations recently with one of those colleagues who then referred him to yet another man actively in intelligence who has an extraordinary thing to say about the panels that we have seen in the debris footage that has the two six-fingered hands side by side in what is now referred to as
the panels the boxes that the creatures were clutching to their chests, according to the cameraman, when they came on the scene to retrieve them.
So now first is Bob Schell, and then I'm going to have some more comments and play another very brief audio of an extraordinary statement left on my message machine.
I don't think he was ever officially involved in it.
But anyway, I called him up when I first got into this and I said, Jim, let me tell you this story.
I told him about the film.
And he said, and I said, well, maybe it is.
And he said, well, I figured it was a matter of time.
And I said, Jim, am I getting myself in any personal danger by getting involved in it?
He said, let me get back to you on that.
So he called me back three days later after talking to some of his friends.
He said, Bob, I don't think you have anything to worry about because if they had wanted this hushed up, Centillian the caramel and both would have been dead a week ago.
He said that.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so based on that assurance from him, I went ahead and got involved in it.
And I have had no sign that anybody is monitoring me, following me.
Nobody's threatened me.
I see no intelligence involvement at all, which really surprises the hell out of me.
Yeah, this man is an active intelligence officer, very high level, who says that he has personally seen one of those control panels, the things with the handprints, years ago, back in the 60s.
And he said he was peripherally involved in a project that was attempting to reverse engineer them.
And what they are is computers.
And he said that after all the years of research they had done on them, they were no closer to understanding them than they were the first day they laid eyes on them.
And the knots placed in the palm, at the ridges of the lower knuckles, at the tips of the fingers, and so forth, they impress one as having some kind of connection to whatever electrical field or nerve impulse there would be.
unidentified
What he said these things are is the way he put it to me was neuron-based computers.
Now, that is a very interesting and new concept, the idea of a neuron-based biological computer that would be personally keyed to each of the beings, tailor-made so that whatever their hands and their feels and their telepathic neuron connection to those panels would be would be their direction.
And he also went on to say that there is the distinct possibility that each panel tailor-made for each being could not be cross-used by another being, or we couldn't activate them.
And it may explain, Art, why in the cameraman statement he said that he called them the freaks at the crash site were screaming and clutching these boxes or panels so desperately to their chests.
And the fact that we've been trying to back engineer in and that we haven't gotten much further now than where they began 50 years ago says something about the kind of technology involved in that.
Yeah, and it goes on because Zantilly had told me that in the autopsy on the being that we have not seen that is under the control of Volcker Spielberg in Germany, that the other humanoid had a sort of blemished and shriveled look to the skin, and Zantilli had almost, I guess he had just inferred that that was an older being.
Well, Bob Schell, in talking about these panels and the individuation of the panels, he said that there is some possible indication that the autopsy that none of us have seen is actually the being that was dead at this crash site when they arrived on the morning of June 3rd.
And that what the cameraman photographed in Fort Worth in July of 47, the two beings and the one that we've seen, that the one we've seen would be the wounded humanoid at the site June 3rd.
That Spielberg has the autopsy on the first dead creature, which the cameraman said was put on ice in a truck and hauled off to Wright-Patterson.
And the doctors who have seen the autopsy on this second one said it could have been preserved on ice and still had that fluid blood come out from the scalpel.
Leaving two more for a third one to match the cameraman said he flew back two years later in 1949 to do an autopsy on another one, leaving in the Bob Schell scenario, one being still alive.
And I now want to play for you a message that was left on my message machine after a Dreamland report that I did about two weeks ago.
And until now, talking with Bob Schell, it didn't make sense.
Now, I'm going to play it just for all of us to think about.
Maybe there was a fourth surviving being that went back someplace and that the three autopsies accounted for by the cameraman would be the one dead at the scene, the one injured with the big leg wound, and the third that lived for two years.
And I'm only putting that out as Bob Schell's hypothesis, but something new to consider as we're all trying to get to the bottom of the truth in all this.
Linda, I want to advise you, I have received, just prior to airtime, one of the best stories with regard to Bigfoot a facts that I've ever received, and I'm going to forward this to you shortly.
Great, because one of the stories I'm working on is a collection of the Bigfoot eyewitness sightings that I've been receiving also since our Dreamland report.
That's Linda Howe, as I said, acknowledged to be the world's expert on crop circles, animal mutilations, and deeply involved, as you can hear, in this autopsy business.
And by the way, the wreckage photographs, I repeat the wreckage photographs to include, listen very carefully now, the panels that Linda just talked about, a very, very good resolution picture of those panels, and the bar with the glyph on it are available on our bulletin board service, which is open now and 24 hours a day.
You're welcome to go in there and download one photograph, GIF file, actually, every day free of charge.
That number is area code 702-727-1709.
702-727-1709.
Author of more than, I know it's unbelievable, but 100 books on the strange and unknown.
Here he draws upon his 40 years as a psychic researcher to select the eeriest, spookiest, scariest, true stories from his own investigations and from his extensive files of the paranormal and Mrs. Mysterious.
Tiger and his wife, Sherry, live in Forest City, Iowa with cats, ghosts, and Scandinavian pixies.
We're going to have to find out what those are.
But his latest book, which I do not have a copy of, by the way, is The Awful Thing in the Attic.
But you can well imagine that with over 100 books under his belt, that's hard for me to imagine, 100 books under your belt.
At any rate, Brad Steiger coming up right after the break.
Let me just tell you very quickly that my book, The Art of Talk, is, hopefully you've got a pen and pencil there now.
My book, The Art of Talk, is available to be ordered right now.
We'll be shipping this week.
Shipping this week if you order now.
In addition, I poured my heart and soul into that book, and I think you're going to love it.
It is of the highest quality.
It's a hardcover book, and you can order it right now, throughout the night, if you can get through.
The number is 1-800-864-7991.
Take it down.
1-800-864-7991.
Now, when we come back, it's off to the strange world of Brad Steiger.
This is something I've been waiting for some time to do.
When I was five, and I've told this in a number of books, but I had a close encounter with what today we commonly think of as an alien being.
I didn't know if it was an elf, a fairy, or whatever.
This happened just before I was five.
Interestingly, just only recently, I met a woman who now lives in California who grew up in the neighboring Iowa town next to mine, who had an experience with the same being at the same time, and we knew it was probably the same, or at least a similar being, I should say, because she had an artist commission to paint this being.
And when I walked into this art gallery, I was overcome because that was the being.
I've had several artists try to replicate as I've described it, but this was absolutely the closest.
And even as a child, as my mother said, I just could not sleep.
I mean, it's just not part of my reality, I guess.
So I would sit on the edge of my bed.
And in those days, we didn't have electric lights yet.
We didn't have radio.
We didn't have TV, of course.
But I would sit on the edge of my bed in our L-shaped house.
I could look in the kitchen window at my parents, and I could just kind of hear them.
So it's kind of like an early form of television.
I'm sitting on the edge of my bed, listening to my parents.
It's an October night, and I hear the washtub from the well, as I said, we did not yet have running water, being pulled over under the window.
Now, I'm wondering why our massive collie dog isn't just raising all kinds of cane because a stranger.
And remember now, I live in the country.
I lived way out in the country.
It's not like you live in town and you hear the neighbors next door.
There are no neighbors next door.
But when you hear someone at night, you know, no.
So I hear the tub being drawn over, and then I see this smallish man, what I first thought was a kind of a helmet on, a very large helmet.
And then I saw that that was his head.
I mean, he had a very large head, and he was standing looking at my parents through the kitchen window.
And then it's one of those things, we've all done it, you know, stared at the back of somebody's head and they finally turn around.
I kept staring at the back of this person's head, this small man's head, or small being's head.
I didn't know what.
And then that being finally then seemed to sense that the watcher was being watched and turned to look at me.
And of course, I will never, as long as I live, forget when he turned and I saw those kind of reptilian, to me, big snake eyes looking at me.
Again, this was only from the light from the kitchen window that all I saw was this large, I couldn't really get color because, of course, it was at night, but very large head.
I would say it seemed kind of yellowish gray or whatever in the light, looking at me with these very large eyes.
And then the eyes kept getting, so it seemed to me as the young child now, the eyes kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger until that's all there was for me was those giant eyes.
If that was a dream art, it is the only dream I remember from my childhood.
It's a dream that I remember with crystal clarity to the age of nearly 60.
It's a dream that comes back to me very often.
And then, of course, I had this woman who was the same age as I am that I met and did not know as a child growing up because she lived in the neighboring town.
And she moved to California when she was rather young.
And as I say, we met in this art gallery, but she had commissioned an artist to paint the being that came to her when she was a little girl in Iowa.
I've lectured, and sometimes people in the audience, well, of course, there'll be just one or two that will say, I know what you're talking about, and I can't put it in words either.
The closest I've seen, my wife, Sherry, does a healing seminar using fractal geometry.
And the fractals that she projects, and she has marvelous results in the audience with people being spontaneously healed with this, are the closest that I've seen to these designs.
At any rate, then, I was told or given to understand that I was to go back on the body, into the body.
I came back into the body just as they were about to operate.
And I was a very husky 11-year-old boy.
And I remember sitting up, pushing two interns against the wall.
And it was a Roman Catholic hospital.
And one of the nurses then began to speak to me in a very soothing voice.
And I've always, I guess, related to the feminine principle.
And she's managed to call me.
And then I went to a beautiful place where they did the surgery, a beautiful valley filled with marvelous people and so forth who kind of kept me company until I returned to the body this time this day.
My first audience for all of this art in my room was a child who was dying when I recovered consciousness in a couple days.
And the nuns in this Roman Catholic hospital seemed to understand that I had been someplace, that I'd had this near-death experience.
Of course, they didn't call it that then.
And they asked me to speak to the parents.
The child was already in kind of a comatose state, and to assure them, you know, that their child would be going to a beautiful place, that I had been there and I had seen it.
And I was able to bring them comfort.
And somehow at age 11, and that's what got me started.
I realized if I shared these things, that it could bring people hope, inspiration, comfort, realization that there is more.
We are souls inhabiting a fleshly body.
There's more to us than even the most imaginative of us tend to believe.
I have had, you know, I certainly am a human being who enjoys, I don't like to say I told you so, and I try not to, but I've had over the years so many people laugh at me because I talk about UFOs, laugh at me because I talk about ghosts, who then, after they've had their experience, they return and they don't care who argues with them because they've seen.
Now they know.
They have experienced.
So I taught college for a number of years and the bright young ladies in the department used to set me up with the scientists.
So every lunch for me became a debating society.
And when I was young and earnest, I did that.
I debated, I debated, and tried to sway with intellect and knowledge and footnotes.
Now I realize these are individual mystical experiences.
And once you have had one, you cannot be dissuaded.
You cannot be told.
You don't care what someone thinks or someone believes or disbelieves because you know.
I mean, friends like J. Ellen Hynek and so forth said, man, you are really off the deep end.
These are solid, clunk, clunk, physical.
And, of course, Sherry was Ellen Hynek's manager right up to the very end, working with him.
And he came very much to see the multi-dimensional, the paraphysical dimension.
And like I say, I have chased these beings, if you will, all over the world.
And what I have seen, what I have witnessed with my own eyes, and of course we know, we know, I think it was, I don't remember who it was, Arthur C. Clarke or someone who said that the science of an advanced generation would look like magic to us.
So nothing I can say is dogmatic.
So please understand that.
It seems what I have seen with my own eyes and my own experience seems to be multidimensional or paraphysical more than it seems to be physical.
But I'm not denying the physical.
I would never do that.
But I'm saying the bulk of what we see, I think, is multidimensional or paraphysical.
We're not going to have time for you to answer this completely right now, but I had on my program the other day an individual, and I've had faxes from individuals lately.
And I know this sounds crazy, and it sounds like a TV series revisited, but they firmly, literally claim they are immortal.
time will tell but i i don't think we're going to see these people being able to demonstrate what they hope to a lot of them are not interested in demonstrating anything at all and figure that uh...
they'll end up being guinea pigs if they I was just curious.
With that many books under your belt, I don't know where to begin, except having had the early childhood experiences that launched you into this, for those that just joined us at this hour, you must have studied quite a few haunted houses.
Haunted houses have absolutely fascinated me all my life.
What story would you relate or stories of the best cases of haunting that you've run into?
What I've tried to do in this book, this current book, it is a collection of some of my favorite hauntings.
And you've put your finger on something, though, Art.
I think when we talk about haunted houses, no matter how scary, if we see a movie about haunted houses or ghosts, you know, on one level, they are telling us something very positive, that there is life after death, that something survives.
So one of the houses we investigated, I'll start with this one.
I find it one of the most dramatic because I was, along with several other 200-pound men, lifted into the air by this entity.
This was a situation where a number of murders over the years had taken place in this house.
I mean, generations apart, but there seems to somehow be vibrations or energies that exist.
And some people may not know when they move in that a murder has been committed in their home.
And somehow they end up replicating the terrible deed that was done before.
Well, this happened to be the case with this house.
And there had been a double murder in the garage.
There had been a double murder in the basement.
When we were called by the police and others to investigate, most of the phenomena were taking place in the basement.
The woman would go down, turn on the faucets, and blood would come pouring out of the faucets.
There seemed to be faces on the wall.
There seemed to be things happening.
But then this one back room in which the murder had taken place, both murders were of a jealous husband who came home and blew his wife and the lover away with a shotgun, even though it may have been a generation apart.
So again, there are happy ghosts, but the ones that we seem to hear about without question happen around violent death, as you said, of some nature, great emotion involved, and unfortunately, too often the emotion of hatred.
So in this particular case, now did I answer your question?
In those places, Art, I have to dissociate myself.
I mean, I know, again, through meditation, through prayer, through other areas, and this can be carried too far, and my wife is certain that I don't carry it, but I can enter a mental state where I just shut off my emotions, my reactions, and so forth, and just kind of become a camera, you know, recording what I'm doing.
And I think that's part of being a writer, too, because everything that happens to me, I know someday is Chris for my mill.
Everything that happened to me.
Someday I'm going to write about it.
But again, I have to, and my wife is very good about saying, hey, no, no, you're not the Brad machine.
Some of my friends have called me when I get into that.
Oh, the Brad machine is taking over.
So, you know, you're not the Brad machine now.
You're back with us and so forth.
But in those cases, I have to.
Or like you say, I mean, I guess what it did for me, too, because I had intellectualized this so much, I realized here again, my massive intellect didn't help at all in that case.
I mean, that door went flying off its hinges.
Something came up, something you could not understand, something you couldn't put in the test tube, something you could put in the formula and explain away.
There was an intelligence, there was a force, there was an energy in that house that didn't want to be messed with.
Well, then the explorations of different houses, different areas.
Again, you were talking, you know, how to, we said, I said I don't try to convince people anymore.
There was this one, the house, again, originally the police asked us to investigate at the time because so many phenomena.
This was a marvelous home, beautiful home in which a former local politician had lived.
And when he passed away, his two maiden daughters lived there until their death.
But several people had seen every night from the field in which the old stables had been, Papa would materialize, walk across the lawn and into the house, and then you could hear the daughters talking to Papa.
I mean, he would come back each night to them, who now were getting up in years themselves.
I suppose to them they simply went back in time, and it was Papa coming in from checking the horses and having a normal evening with them.
So we investigated.
The caretaker was very cooperative.
The police officer who had put me onto the case, you know, was a good friend.
He'd taken crop circle pictures for me.
He'd taken from it.
He was the eye in the sky, the traffic airplane cop.
And again, that seems unfair on one level, but I understand that.
I understand that because everyone wants to explain it.
And first you go to your chief and say, you know, we have a haunting here.
And he says, right, you've been working too hard.
Maybe you better take some leave.
So this was almost all done unofficial, but I can say I've done it with police captains, lieutenants, chiefs of entire areas in major cities across the United States, you know, but it's all done on the QT, unofficially.
Anyway, she goes to this particular office, and much as the case you related, suddenly when she goes there, it is not, she even looks out the window.
It's not the campus of today.
It's the campus of many years ago.
A woman is sitting at the desk, smiles, a very tall woman, very elegant woman, stands up, walks toward her as if to say, may I help you?
And I think it was in what is now one of the music rehearsal or practice rooms, was at one time then part of the administration.
So finally then, she had, I mean, it was just, she was so convinced she had gone back in time when she described it.
So eventually then, in a generations, a couple generations old yearbook, they found the woman that she had seen who was a faculty member and described as very statuesque.
And it was the picture of the woman she had seen.
They were able to trace it.
They were able to go back.
So here again, she had literally walked back in time.
I've had other cases in hotel rooms where people, again, have walked onto another floor where obviously it's another time.
Is it worth trying if somebody wanted to actually try to travel in time, I remember how it was done in Somewhere in Time, eliminated every possible reference to the current modern world and then went into a state of very strong concentration and in despair.
And then finally, at the right moment, of course, he did travel in time.
We, and I didn't realize this was going to happen.
We had done a number of experiments in time travel and in out-of-body projection.
We first went on one experiment on one show, which was live on TV, so there's nothing you can do, man, it's live.
So you really, I mean, talk about pressure.
So I sent the subject to the host who was taking over for the regular hosts to his home in Boston.
Not only did the subject describe his home exactly, described and looked at the makes of the various utilities and so forth, but then all of a sudden it began to describe people coming in the front door.
And a man thought his wife was alone home.
During commercial, he called his wife because he says, those sounds like our friends from New Hampshire.
And sure enough, at that very moment, these friends had dropped by unexpectedly while we were projecting our subject there.
They challenged us then on another show, and they had experts in the audience, to go back to Lincoln's Gettysburg address, to send our subject back there and describe.
And there are a number of Lincoln scholars.
So any detail, well, our subject came up with several details.
Yes, we have co-authored Strange Powers of Pets, more Strange Powers of Pets, and now the new one, The Mystery of Animal Intelligence.
And she feels especially proud of this one because this was written for the teenage audience.
It would be a selection of scholastic books, so the kids get that right in the school with their catalogs and so forth, or will be in bookstores as well, too.
And this is all 100% scientific research, the mystery of animal intelligence.
I talked to somebody not very long ago who said, you know, if I see a raccoon or a rabbit and I'm driving down the street, I swerve and I squoosh them every time I get a chance.
You know, I thought when I heard that, Brad, if a person, to me, that's almost as much of a sin personally as killing a human being.
Now, obviously it isn't, but the intentional, mindless taking of life.
So what this book is, again, is talking to those scientists, those zoologists, biologists, animal trainers, and so forth, with clear instances of a reasoning capacity, of animals using tools, animals doing things that other people, like this man you're talking about, would not think animals were capable of doing.
So it's really a very rich book, and as I say, it was done specifically for the teenage or the educational market.
And we were delighted.
I mean, they started with a first printing of nearly $150,000 on it.
So the schools, and this is what her, because again, she, you know, with her educational background and ministerial background, she was delighted that we're reaching the young people that way, too.
Excuse me, it is a Torah book, and then the scholastic people are going to feature it in the, will be right in the schools where the kids can order it.
So the parents can be on the lookout for it and see that their child order it.
And then she has her book of inspiration called Seasons of the Soul.
This is an area that I'm recently very curious about, and I used to laugh about a kind of, you know, all these tales about Bigfoot.
You heard Linda Moulton Howe on Dreamland when you were our guests this last week.
She has a tape of a scream of a creature, allegedly Bigfoot brat, and I have never, I mean, I've heard it four or five times now because I keep making her play it.
It is the most blood-curdling, horrible, anti-human.
I mean, it's just, is there a creature like, is there Bigfoot?
Well, there certainly is something because again, in my younger days, and I had some buddies who were, you know, rangers and experienced woodsmen and ex-Marines, and we would take up on a moment's notice, and we have gone all over.
And I've heard him, and I've smelled him, and I've found the droppings, and I've picked up the hair, and we've been in situations where people, I mean, there are 30 men with 3030s and 30 opt 6s ready to go out.
We found the dead cattle.
We found the dogs that were broken in half.
There's something there for a while, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that, again, it's multi-dimensional or paraphysical.
Because, I mean, we've been in situations where nothing could have got away.
And again, I've gone, whether it's Tennessee or California, I mean, it's all over, you know.
And I've talked to people who literally go out every weekend, you know.
In the South, they call them skunk apes.
And, you know, they have their different names, whether it's Walk Walk or Bigfoot or Sasquatch.
I mean, I remember friends in Canada sent me, I guess it became kind of a popular tune, Old Daddy Bigfoot, I think it was.
Hit the charts for a while in Canada a few years back.
I mean, there's something there.
I'll tell you this story, which I've never put into print.
When we were pursuing, we thought, I mean, this was in an area where whatever it was was creating havoc with the farmers and killing cattle and their dogs.
We managed to get a clump of hair and we took it to a very well-accredited forensic scientist with a major university.
When we came back to pick it up, the man was mad as blazes at us.
And he said, Don't get me involved in this type of thing.
And we said, Well, what do you mean?
Yeah, we kind of explained to him what it was.
He says, Yeah, yeah, right, Bigfoot.
And well, what's the trouble?
He says, Well, you're trying to get me involved in some divorce proceedings, aren't you?
We said, What do you mean?
We said, Well, this is, I mean, he says, it appears to be human or and human-like.
I mean, and obviously you got this in somebody's bed, and now you're trying to bring them.
So, I mean, he wouldn't even talk to us.
But we were intrigued.
In other words, it misled this top forensic scientist who does this for police departments all the time at one of the major universities.
And then when we said, no, wait, wait, wait, we told you what it was.
We told you where we found it because it was on a barbed wire fence is where we got it.
But we knew it was because of the footprints of Bigfoot.
And he said, this is human hair.
What are you trying to pull on me?
So that really baffled us.
In other words, he thought it was human-like.
I mean, so that threw another bizarre thing in it because it was long, it was coarse, but still, it convinced him that it was enough-like human that he thought he was being involved unknowingly in a divorce case.
He was the zoologist that came on like people do, whether it's David Letterman or Johnny Carson.
In an earlier time, it was Ivan T. Sanderson, who was a world-renowned, he was originally from Scotland.
He was the zoologist.
And I remember the late-night phone call I got, and Ivan says, you know, I have found it, lad.
At last I have what I have searched my life, and Bernie is here with me, and they're in the northern part of Minnesota, and they found what they believed at last was the corpse of Bigfoot.
Now, suddenly that became involved in one of the most incredible mysteries whatever happened.
Now, I saw it not too long ago on Unsolved Mysteries, and there was someone portraying Ivan and Bernard, and again it ended up, they thought it was a mask from Planet of the Apes from Hollywood.
But again, here we have two eminent zoologists who, the stink of the body, the feel of the body, but suddenly when other scientists came, here was this rubber dummy.
Now, what happened to their theory is, and again, you know, not to get anybody in any type of trouble, but as someone told me that the person, or one of the people responsible, let's put it that way,
because I don't want trouble for anybody, that the person felt that he'd actually shot a human being and arranged to dispose so that there would not be charges brought.
Also, of course, it is unlawful to display a corpse.
So this person may have felt that he was going to get nailed on two counts and did the switch.
But I know that Ivan and Bernard and a few others eminent zoologists were in large sense discredited and in some sense never recovered.
And it wasn't, Ivan didn't live long after that experience.
John Mack has gone through tribulation recently with Harvard, which was attempted to or attempted to tamper a bit with his credentials.
They were actually bringing him nearly up on charges for investigating the alien abduction or abduction syndrome.
And I guess I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and put you out on the same sort of limb regarding people who claim they are taken.
Brad, what do you think of this, these people that keep claiming that they have been taken into spaceships, they've been taken into the earth, they've been taken by alien beings or beings of some kind?
I think, again, I started writing about abductions in the 60s, long before it was popular, and I became very unpopular in research groups for writing about it.
People felt I shouldn't deal with this, that it was nonsense.
But now I'll move you from there right into the hardware phase.
This is from Rick and Reno.
He says, Art, I don't know if you're aware of this, and I wasn't, but Brad co-wrote Al Belick's book, The Philadelphia Experiment and Other UFO Conspiracies.
Actually, I think he probably did about 90% of the writing.
And Rick would like to know how much credibility you attach to the Belick story.
I've interviewed Al Belick, fascinating individual, a real story of hardware and time.
When I did the Allende Allende letters in the 60s, and I wrote a book on the Philadelphia experiment then, it grew out of an article I wrote for Saga magazine.
And it brought me the most incredible mail of people who claimed to have had relatives on board, of people who claimed themselves to have been on board, of families who claimed they had relatives and institutions after the experiment.
All I want to say is every time I think there is nothing to this story, someone in whom I put a great deal of credence comes up with another piece, another piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
Psychologically, or who brought in discordant energies that really raised Kane.
And I've had this happen with Phi Beta Kappas.
I've had this happen with Dean's List A students who, again, thought intellectually they were superior to all this nonsense and just were almost psychologically destroyed.
Well, again, I'd be terribly arrogant if I said no one else should approach it that way but me and a few others.
I would never say that because I think this enters into an area of what I call personal shamanism.
I think that we all have these abilities.
I think that we have the ability to reach out and touch higher intelligences.
But this must be done again with prayer.
Shaman friends of mine, you know, who fast before they try this, who fast go through a period of discipline, who go through prayer, I think it requires, I'm serious, I think it requires that same kind of attitude that you become ministers, so to speak, that you become priests, that you become shamans, that you really approach this area with that kind of seriousness and that kind of responsibility.
And then you have every right as a sovereign entity for you to expand your universe as well.
I did not at the age of 11 know mandala, but uh certainly I have seen some mandalas since that did resemble some of the Sufi art, some of even some Persian rugs, if you will, have come somewhat close.
And I wondered if maybe some of those rugs were designed in an altered state of consciousness, you know?
unidentified
Yeah, yeah.
I'm kind of a symmetrical being, you know, my right half and left side are, you know, they have, they do things like I'll get a pimple on my right cheek and a few days later it'll appear in the left cheek, same side, you know.
I think it is a really nifty thing to be a human being.
But I think so few of us recognize our potential.
And what I try to do in my books, if I don't sound presumptuous, and I hope I don't, is to get people to explore their potentials.
I don't care.
I've been to lectures where people stand, someone stands up.
I disagree with you.
I said, but did I make you think?
The person said, yes, you did.
Then that's what I'm trying to do, is get people to explore their potentials, to realize that they can be so much more than they ever believed they can be.
So I don't think we're at the lowest level.
I think we're at a lower level than the higher beings around us.
But I think we really are a transitional species.
I really think we are the link between ape and angel.
And from St. Paul, Minnesota, Lynn would like to know, Brad, whether, a big fan of yours, by the way, whether you have read a book called Nothing in this Book is True, but it's Exactly How Things Are by Bob Fazzell.
Now, let me tell you, and then we'll give out the number for your book.
But in the book that I am just now coming out with, I have a picture, Brad, a stonemason down in Arizona had done some work in about a hundred-year-old home down in Arizona.
And he took a photograph.
He was proud of his work.
So when he was done, he took a photograph of the stonework.
And I'm telling you, Brad, I've never seen anything like it in my life.
And I've seen a lot of things portending to be ghosts.
But this was clearly a kind of smoky, I would describe it as a smoky, semi-translucent being.
I mean, no question about it.
I mean, clear as it can be.
I put it in my book, and every time I look at this photograph, it sends chills down my spine.
The famous Borley rectory in England, called England's Most Haunted House for years.
The entity began writing when one pastor or Episcopalian moved in and his wife seemed to really somehow activate the sympathy, a sort of a sympathical rapport with the entity, and began to write to Mary Ann, the priest pastor's wife.
So one of the investigators of that famous case, Borley Regby Byrne, some years ago, but sent me specimens of that handwriting of a ghost.
Yes, but in a house, in architecture, what is the attic?
What does that represent?
The mind.
So the basement is the earthy part where maybe demons exist, but the demons that exist in the mind might be even more fierce than those that exist in the basement.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
Hi.
unidentified
Yes, hi.
Brad, years ago, you wrote an introduction to a book written by Paul Twitchell called In My Soul, I Am Free.
And for the listeners who don't know, Paul Twitchell is an out-of-body traveler, a la Robert Monroe.
And I was wondering, since Paul Twitchell left the physical plane, I believe it was around 1971, if you could share some of your experiences with him.
I have heard incredible things about this man who I even heard was able to change the local weather according to his wishes and several other phenomenal stories.
Well, I was present a number of times when, like a powerful shaman, I've seen shaman do it as well, but Paul Twitchell had that ability to seemingly reach up and arrange the thermostat the way he wanted to, to change from rain to sun or vice versa, depending upon.
He was a remarkable man, and I really felt as though I was privileged to know him at a very important developmental time of my life.
And I've included material about him in a couple new books that will be coming out, as a matter of fact.
Some scientists brought me two semi-trader truckloads of material in which they had been studying with a staff of thousands.
The weather, I put this together in a book called Roadmap of Time, which outlined everything that's happening now, but I guess it scared the heck out of everybody.
It was the big seller in Britain, Europe, but it did nothing here.
Brad, is there, as we understand it, and there are the Mayan calendar and people who feel there may be errors in the Mayan calendar and feel that literally the end of time is not far ahead?
I think we're going to see more and more people beginning to make quantum leaps.
I think we are in the process of evolving from Homo sapiens to Homo spiritus, thinking man to spiritual man.
And, you know, regretfully, in every quantum evolutionary leap forward, we will pray that as many people will be open to this and prepare for this as possible.
We know that some people will resist.
Some people perhaps will not be prepared for that transition.
But we do have an opportunity.
I don't think we're coming to the end of the world.
I think we're coming to a dramatic transitional phase.
The number one thing, aspect, question, comment that I get in the hundreds of letters I get every week is expressing what you have just said, my friend.
That time is accelerating, that people know they're supposed to be doing something.
The number one thing I get at is, what is my purpose?
What is my mission?
And again, I'm not trying to be coy, but I have dealt with this in so many books, and I do refer them to certain books where I do try to show people techniques and exercises whereby they can hopefully achieve greater insight into their mission and purpose in life.
And as I said, these scientists had studied every aspect of human endeavor, including sociological eruptions, including political unrest, including all of these things.
I don't think I've ever been so disappointed.
I've been so blessed to have so many of my books achieve, you know, hundreds of thousands, million copies, and so forth.
This book did nothing.
I think it's one of the most important.
And I'm not bragging because I edited it.
I took this material.
I'm not taking credit for any of this material.
I was privileged to put it together.
And as I say, I got permission from France, from England, for her.
Here's something that I want to ask you that I've been wondering about myself.
I have had great success, Brad.
You have had great success in your field.
Are there quiet moments where you wonder and ponder why and why you're so successful, whether something special has been given to you or whether you owe something because of it?
I think every person who achieves some level of success has serious moments of pondering why.
I felt I was, when I died at age 11, I came back an older.
I mean, I felt that I had the responsibility to share this, to share this good news that we are more than physical things, that we are spiritual beings, that we have an opportunity to help others.
I think the bottom line is sharing and being one with others.
The oneness is the important thing to me.
And again, I feel blessed.
And I feel that people say, my goodness, why do you keep going?
Why do you keep doing this?
Why do you keep...
I can't share enough.
I'm just...
She had near-death experiences, children.
She is an ordained Protestant minister.
And I guess we are both just on fire with the zeal of sharing.
This is our mission.
See, we look upon it as a mission or a ministry, but I think people will agree.
And I get wonderful letters saying, we're so happy, you're so objective.
You don't push, you just present.
And that's what I try to do, because if I sit down beside someone who says, I have the only answer, I have the only way, I know I'm going to get off that bus.
I mean, I'm not going to go on a bus trip with someone who has all the answers, the only way, the only purpose.
My wife is half Chippewa, as well as being Swedish and French.
And she has worked with shaman and medicine people of many tribes, as have I. And I love these people, and I feel of one with them.
I feel these things are very much symbolical.
I feel that we are in that time of great purification.
Excuse me, purification is what I choose.
Not the end of the world, but another time of purification in which, you know, and I always hate to be doomsday at all, but as I say, perhaps not everyone is going to make it through.
But a time of purification my wife and I feel is coming.
Yeah, I have, I'm wondering if you're familiarity with an author by Brant, the R-A-N-D-T, Kyle from Berkeley, California, published The War in Heaven, 1989, his own press called S.R. Press.
He, like yourself, has an attention toward, addresses the importance of attention in manifestation and how it empowers the manifestation.
And that perhaps there might be, rather than a field of daisies at the edge of the cliff beyond that, in empowering manifestations and the cultural symbols that we pay attention to.
And aside from rather than the idea of perceiving conflict as empowering the dark side, rather than acknowledging that there is a war in heaven and that this time of transformation might be a final contest, that this is that he names it the invisible college,
that which would further our race and help us to transform and what he calls a group of spirits or manifestations called the elementals that have hung around too long and begun to pervert and seed, harvest human attention throughout the world.
You've read enough of my books to know that I have dealt with exactly that topic and that theme very often and very much believe that there is a war in heaven, if you choose to put it in those terms, that there are powers and principalities, and that we as human beings may indeed be the prize, and the prize of war, so to speak.
The spoils of war, if you really want to be denigrating, I guess, to some people's ego.
And so I very much believe that.
A British author, you said something about a staggering amount, Art.
He has written a book called The Dark Gods, in which he refers to the steiger effect, which I, well, in one of my books, I say, you know, again, how we deal with negativity is to confront it, always being cautious and so forth, but how we must drive it back.
So I definitely don't think I'm familiar with this particular book.
Again, please forgive me because people send me books and things.
I love it, but sometimes I can't always keep up.
But certainly the caller is right.
My wife and I have dealt with that particular theme in a number of our books.
On one of my programs years ago, he said something that I'll never forget.
He said, Art, it is my feeling, or I've been told, let me get this straight, that when you die or have a near-death experience, the light is a trick and you should go to the darkness.
I could not accept that from my personal experience, Art, but I would translate what John said, because I know John.
We are certainly acquaintances.
I would interpret that as continual vigilance.
As I said, discipline, discernment, and we must be vigilant always.
One of my books, I guess, that I resonate with in terms of the title is One with the Light, which as we speak is being made into a pilot film for hopefully, we'll sell it, there'll be a series, which deals with the near-death experience, but also the entire aspect of what it tells us about ourselves, about what we really are and who we really are, and how to utilize this energy.
So certainly, I would not say go to the darkness.
I would say learn to discern and discriminate who the players are.
As I've often said, when some people have said, oh, I want to go for a ride in a UFO, and if the UFO lands, I will get in it and go off to this.
I said, well, before you do, ask to see the driver's license.
I mean, you want to know who you're getting board with.