Art Bell

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Oct. 8, 1995 - Art Bell

01:49:54

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Brad Steiger - Paranormal Topics

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27:43

brad steiger

01:01:09

linda moulton howe

09:13

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		Another Sunday night, another Dreamland.
		Good evening, everybody.
		I'm Marcelle.
		I'll give you a thumbnail sketch of what's coming up tonight.
		First, of course, the world's expert, well-acknowledged world's expert on crop circles, animal mutilations, and an extending field.
		That's Linda Howe.
		She'll be coming to us from Philadelphia.
		Then, a man who has written over 100 books, the latest of which is called The Awful Thing in the Attic.
		I thought they were generally in the cellar, but this one definitely is in the attic.
		We'll find out.
		Brad Steiger.
		A well-known Brad Steiger is going to be my guest.
		And so that's kind of a little bit of an idea of what's coming up.
		Let me take care of a couple of items right up front.
		We all know that information is what it's all about.
		And now, Linda, welcome to the show again.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I just got in about an hour ago from North Haven, Connecticut, where the Omega conference was held with Stanton Friedman and Jacques Belay from California, myself, and others, discussing a variety of phenomena, including the current humanoid autopsy controversy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And last night, there was considerable conversation about whether the cameraman died on August 3rd, 1995 in Los Angeles.
		A man that matches the name that Santilli had originally given researchers may have died.
		But I talked with Santilli's office as recently as Thursday, and they said that as far as they were concerned, the cameraman they're dealing with is alive and is under deep cover to protect himself and his family.
		So that issue is unresolved tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, that gave me a little heart jump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he's no doubt then still alive, or at least you're told.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they were telling me on Thursday and part of the conversation and trying to clarify is this man alive or not.
		I also talked with Bob Schell in Washington.
		And he had a very interesting comment to make about his own feelers into the intelligence community.
		He worked 30 years ago in the Central Intelligence Agency as a zoologist biologist on things that would be related to biochemical warfare, or at least the research into those matters.
		And he says with great firmness that he has not worked for the agency for 30 years, but many of these men do keep friendships with some of the people that they worked with.
		And I'm now going to play you an excerpt of one of his conversations recently with one of those colleagues who then referred him to yet another man actively in intelligence who has an extraordinary thing to say about the panels that we have seen in the debris footage that has the two six-fingered hands side by side in what is now referred to as
		the panels the boxes that the creatures were clutching to their chests, according to the cameraman, when they came on the scene to retrieve them.
		So now first is Bob Schell, and then I'm going to have some more comments and play another very brief audio of an extraordinary statement left on my message machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here comes Bob Schell, and he is an FBI photo consultant analyst.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead, Linda.
unidentified		So I called up my friend who is in intelligence, officially retired.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Can I just ask for a qualifier?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Does this friend work in the inner sanctum related to MJ-12 or any of the special projects in the Truman Administration?
unidentified		Not to my personal knowledge.
		Okay.
		Not to my personal knowledge.
		Do you mean that he may have?
		I doubt that he did.
		I know he knows a lot about this stuff.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I won't interrupt any further.
unidentified		I don't think he was ever officially involved in it.
		But anyway, I called him up when I first got into this and I said, Jim, let me tell you this story.
		I told him about the film.
		And he said, and I said, well, maybe it is.
		And he said, well, I figured it was a matter of time.
		And I said, Jim, am I getting myself in any personal danger by getting involved in it?
		He said, let me get back to you on that.
		So he called me back three days later after talking to some of his friends.
		He said, Bob, I don't think you have anything to worry about because if they had wanted this hushed up, Centillian the caramel and both would have been dead a week ago.
		He said that.
		Yeah.
		Okay.
		And so based on that assurance from him, I went ahead and got involved in it.
		And I have had no sign that anybody is monitoring me, following me.
		Nobody's threatened me.
		I see no intelligence involvement at all, which really surprises the hell out of me.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Anything else, any other information that's come to you from sources verifying it in some way?
unidentified		Only that I have talked to one man who was referred to me by my other friend.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		By Jim.
unidentified		Yeah, this man is an active intelligence officer, very high level, who says that he has personally seen one of those control panels, the things with the handprints, years ago, back in the 60s.
		And he said he was peripherally involved in a project that was attempting to reverse engineer them.
		And what they are is computers.
		And he said that after all the years of research they had done on them, they were no closer to understanding them than they were the first day they laid eyes on them.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the knots placed in the palm, at the ridges of the lower knuckles, at the tips of the fingers, and so forth, they impress one as having some kind of connection to whatever electrical field or nerve impulse there would be.
unidentified		What he said these things are is the way he put it to me was neuron-based computers.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Neuron-based.
unidentified		Yeah, not electronic, but biological base.
		Which is very curious because there's an article in this month's Discovery Magazine talking about building just such a thing.
		Our computer scientists are working in that direction.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, that is a very interesting and new concept, the idea of a neuron-based biological computer that would be personally keyed to each of the beings, tailor-made so that whatever their hands and their feels and their telepathic neuron connection to those panels would be would be their direction.
		And he also went on to say that there is the distinct possibility that each panel tailor-made for each being could not be cross-used by another being, or we couldn't activate them.
		And it may explain, Art, why in the cameraman statement he said that he called them the freaks at the crash site were screaming and clutching these boxes or panels so desperately to their chests.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that is incredible, Lynn.
unidentified		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the fact that we've been trying to back engineer in and that we haven't gotten much further now than where they began 50 years ago says something about the kind of technology involved in that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not surprised.
		That's an incredible report.
		Absolutely incredible.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it goes on because Zantilly had told me that in the autopsy on the being that we have not seen that is under the control of Volcker Spielberg in Germany, that the other humanoid had a sort of blemished and shriveled look to the skin, and Zantilli had almost, I guess he had just inferred that that was an older being.
		Well, Bob Schell, in talking about these panels and the individuation of the panels, he said that there is some possible indication that the autopsy that none of us have seen is actually the being that was dead at this crash site when they arrived on the morning of June 3rd.
		And that what the cameraman photographed in Fort Worth in July of 47, the two beings and the one that we've seen, that the one we've seen would be the wounded humanoid at the site June 3rd.
		That Spielberg has the autopsy on the first dead creature, which the cameraman said was put on ice in a truck and hauled off to Wright-Patterson.
		And the doctors who have seen the autopsy on this second one said it could have been preserved on ice and still had that fluid blood come out from the scalpel.
		Leaving two more for a third one to match the cameraman said he flew back two years later in 1949 to do an autopsy on another one, leaving in the Bob Schell scenario, one being still alive.
		And I now want to play for you a message that was left on my message machine after a Dreamland report that I did about two weeks ago.
		And until now, talking with Bob Schell, it didn't make sense.
		Now, I'm going to play it just for all of us to think about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		The government made contact in 1949 when they returned the alien that survived.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		The government made contact in 1949 when they returned the alien that survived.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An anonymous message, I take it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, now.
		Maybe Shell is right.
		Maybe there was a fourth surviving being that went back someplace and that the three autopsies accounted for by the cameraman would be the one dead at the scene, the one injured with the big leg wound, and the third that lived for two years.
		And I'm only putting that out as Bob Schell's hypothesis, but something new to consider as we're all trying to get to the bottom of the truth in all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this is amazing, Linda.
		You know, something that began as more people than not saying, we think hoax has been building and building and building and building.
		And the evidence we've been getting every week now has been toppling over to the side of this really did happen.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and one of the men in the audience in North Haven, who is a medical doctor, his entire profession, he saw the footage last night.
		We saw the unedited autopsy and debris footage.
		And he stood up and said that I know something about the Turner syndrome, which has been proposed as a genetic anomaly.
		And he said, I can assure you that there is nothing in this humanoid that would Match up to the Turner syndrome.
		And we've heard that before, but it was interesting to hear it repeated again from the audience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, give out all your information if you would, please.
		This is a remarkable report.
		I wish I'd taped it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
unidentified		We can go keep doing this more and more.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Like you, I have an 800 number now for people who would like information about my books and videos, and I can give that out.
unidentified		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		800-707-9993.
		Again, that's toll-free.
		800-707-9993.
		And for people who want to write to me, and you can ask for confidentiality, and I will always honor it.
		It is Post Office Box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
		The zip code is 19006.
		And again, it's Post Office Box 538.
		And the city is H U N T I N G D is in Dog O N Valley P A 19006.
		And my fax number is area code 2154919842.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, I want to advise you, I have received, just prior to airtime, one of the best stories with regard to Bigfoot a facts that I've ever received, and I'm going to forward this to you shortly.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Great, because one of the stories I'm working on is a collection of the Bigfoot eyewitness sightings that I've been receiving also since our Dreamland report.
unidentified		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got to run, but this will be on the way to you, and believe me, it's worth the wait.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'll be there shortly.
unidentified		Great.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Maybe I can do this next week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We'll look for a follow-up.
		Thank you, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		That's Linda Howe, as I said, acknowledged to be the world's expert on crop circles, animal mutilations, and deeply involved, as you can hear, in this autopsy business.
		And by the way, the wreckage photographs, I repeat the wreckage photographs to include, listen very carefully now, the panels that Linda just talked about, a very, very good resolution picture of those panels, and the bar with the glyph on it are available on our bulletin board service, which is open now and 24 hours a day.
		You're welcome to go in there and download one photograph, GIF file, actually, every day free of charge.
		That number is area code 702-727-1709.
		702-727-1709.
		Author of more than, I know it's unbelievable, but 100 books on the strange and unknown.
		Here he draws upon his 40 years as a psychic researcher to select the eeriest, spookiest, scariest, true stories from his own investigations and from his extensive files of the paranormal and Mrs. Mysterious.
		Tiger and his wife, Sherry, live in Forest City, Iowa with cats, ghosts, and Scandinavian pixies.
		We're going to have to find out what those are.
		But his latest book, which I do not have a copy of, by the way, is The Awful Thing in the Attic.
		But you can well imagine that with over 100 books under his belt, that's hard for me to imagine, 100 books under your belt.
		At any rate, Brad Steiger coming up right after the break.
		Let me just tell you very quickly that my book, The Art of Talk, is, hopefully you've got a pen and pencil there now.
		My book, The Art of Talk, is available to be ordered right now.
		We'll be shipping this week.
		Shipping this week if you order now.
		In addition, I poured my heart and soul into that book, and I think you're going to love it.
		It is of the highest quality.
		It's a hardcover book, and you can order it right now, throughout the night, if you can get through.
		The number is 1-800-864-7991.
		Take it down.
		1-800-864-7991.
		Now, when we come back, it's off to the strange world of Brad Steiger.
		This is something I've been waiting for some time to do.
		A large honor, indeed, to interview Brad Steiger.
		is next.
		Forget a And the world-famous Brad Steiger.
		Brad, welcome to the program first.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Pleasure to be with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brad, have you really written over 100 books?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		This book is number 134.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've written the first book in my whole life, which is just coming out, and it drained me and almost killed me.
unidentified		How do you do it?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		It's what I do.
		You know, it's my life.
		It's my energy.
unidentified		I'm surprised you have any life left after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a killer job for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		But you don't have a copy of the book.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I can't believe it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
		I have a copy of The Strange World of Brad Seiger, and In My Soul I Am Free, and that's it so far.
		So if you are so inclined, I would sure love to have an autographed version.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, you certainly will have one, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First of all, I guess a little background on Brad Seiger.
		How'd you get started with an interest in all of this?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I suppose I'd have to go back to the fact that I was reared in a haunted house.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And then I had a near-death experience at age 11.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And I guess a visitor from another world or dimension when I was five and put all those together.
		And I guess I had...
		People think I'm 112 years old, but you have to remember I began writing when I was 15.
		So people, even my contemporaries, will say, gee, I read your book in high school.
		Well, that's true, but I'm not that much older.
		I'll be 60 now in February.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Well, you don't sound it, number one, and you certainly don't write like it.
		Well, thank you.
		So I can understand why you began writing early.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I really had no choice, Art.
		When I was five, and I've told this in a number of books, but I had a close encounter with what today we commonly think of as an alien being.
		I didn't know if it was an elf, a fairy, or whatever.
		This happened just before I was five.
		Interestingly, just only recently, I met a woman who now lives in California who grew up in the neighboring Iowa town next to mine, who had an experience with the same being at the same time, and we knew it was probably the same, or at least a similar being, I should say, because she had an artist commission to paint this being.
		And when I walked into this art gallery, I was overcome because that was the being.
		I've had several artists try to replicate as I've described it, but this was absolutely the closest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do the best you can for us.
		What was this being?
		What did it look like?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I grew up on a farm.
		I'm a country boy.
		I've lived all over the world, New York, the West Coast, Arizona, but I'm still a country boy.
		I love it here in Iowa and the Midwest.
		So I'm used to seeing at that time at age five art.
		I was used to seeing my father in his coverall.
		So I was awakened.
		I wasn't awakened because I'm a night person now, you see.
		Your producer said, better take a nap.
		You up to be midnight.
		I said, I don't go to bed till 4.30.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's good.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So I'm a night person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And even as a child, as my mother said, I just could not sleep.
		I mean, it's just not part of my reality, I guess.
		So I would sit on the edge of my bed.
		And in those days, we didn't have electric lights yet.
		We didn't have radio.
		We didn't have TV, of course.
		But I would sit on the edge of my bed in our L-shaped house.
		I could look in the kitchen window at my parents, and I could just kind of hear them.
		So it's kind of like an early form of television.
		I'm sitting on the edge of my bed, listening to my parents.
		It's an October night, and I hear the washtub from the well, as I said, we did not yet have running water, being pulled over under the window.
		Now, I'm wondering why our massive collie dog isn't just raising all kinds of cane because a stranger.
		And remember now, I live in the country.
		I lived way out in the country.
		It's not like you live in town and you hear the neighbors next door.
		There are no neighbors next door.
		But when you hear someone at night, you know, no.
		So I hear the tub being drawn over, and then I see this smallish man, what I first thought was a kind of a helmet on, a very large helmet.
		And then I saw that that was his head.
		I mean, he had a very large head, and he was standing looking at my parents through the kitchen window.
		And then it's one of those things, we've all done it, you know, stared at the back of somebody's head and they finally turn around.
		I kept staring at the back of this person's head, this small man's head, or small being's head.
		I didn't know what.
		And then that being finally then seemed to sense that the watcher was being watched and turned to look at me.
		And of course, I will never, as long as I live, forget when he turned and I saw those kind of reptilian, to me, big snake eyes looking at me.
		Again, this was only from the light from the kitchen window that all I saw was this large, I couldn't really get color because, of course, it was at night, but very large head.
		I would say it seemed kind of yellowish gray or whatever in the light, looking at me with these very large eyes.
		And then the eyes kept getting, so it seemed to me as the young child now, the eyes kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger until that's all there was for me was those giant eyes.
		And then I awakened the next morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then somebody would be tempted to say you had a dream.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Someone could easily say that.
		If that was a dream art, it is the only dream I remember from my childhood.
		It's a dream that I remember with crystal clarity to the age of nearly 60.
		It's a dream that comes back to me very often.
		And then, of course, I had this woman who was the same age as I am that I met and did not know as a child growing up because she lived in the neighboring town.
		And she moved to California when she was rather young.
		And as I say, we met in this art gallery, but she had commissioned an artist to paint the being that came to her when she was a little girl in Iowa.
		And it was the same or, you know, similar being.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it on reflection after all these years that you believe you saw?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I feel I had these things happen to me for specific reasons.
		The near-death experience, this being, I feel, activated something within me.
		My Indian name, when I was adopted into the Seneca trime, is Hatyaswas, which means he who testifies.
		And I think I am in a large part with these books, Art.
		I think I am a testifier.
		Now, I was shown, because I have my near-death experience, this experience, I had giant questions answered for me before I was a teenager.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's move to that.
		11 years old, near-death.
		How did that happen?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		That happened in a very severe farm accident in which, I mean, the word was already out to prepare the funeral type of thing.
		That my father and my uncle decided they had nothing to lose.
		They were going to try to go all the way to Des Moines where they heard there might be someone who could put Patch Me together again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What happened to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell us?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		It's extremely gory.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I went through a piece of machinery That completely could have decapitated me, really scalped me, and crushed my skull.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So, again, this was on my parents' wedding anniversary.
		So, we were hurrying to get the chores and the work finished so we could go out to eat that night and celebrate their anniversary.
		And this is how they ended up celebrating.
		So, they decided to make a run.
		And again, I was in and out of the body.
		I went up to first a beautiful light.
		And then I realized that I was dying.
		And again, the classic, I'm too young to die.
		I'm 11 years old.
		And then I thought of my mother, you know, my mother, how's my mother going to receive this?
		And I was instantly beside her.
		I thought of my friends, and I was instantly beside each one of them.
		I was free of the limitations of time and space.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In pain?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		No pain.
		Absolutely no pain.
		Then, as I said, I was out of the body.
		If I came back to my body, I was farther and farther away from my body.
		It was harder to get back to my body.
		And I kept moving toward this light.
		And then I had a moment of panic when I realized I am dying.
		And I was shown something I cannot put into words.
		I've written 134 books, thousands of articles, and short stories.
		Words fail me.
		I was shown a series of geometric designs is the only thing I can say.
		Seeing those designs somehow told me there was a form, a meaning, a sense to life, and I was in a state of ecstasy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard anybody say that before.
		Geometric designs.
		Yeah, I've heard a lot of testimony about near-death, but never geometric designs.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I've lectured, and sometimes people in the audience, well, of course, there'll be just one or two that will say, I know what you're talking about, and I can't put it in words either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember those things, kaleidoscopes, when you were a kid and you would turn them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it that kind of a factor?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		The closest I've seen, my wife, Sherry, does a healing seminar using fractal geometry.
		And the fractals that she projects, and she has marvelous results in the audience with people being spontaneously healed with this, are the closest that I've seen to these designs.
		At any rate, then, I was told or given to understand that I was to go back on the body, into the body.
		I came back into the body just as they were about to operate.
		And I was a very husky 11-year-old boy.
		And I remember sitting up, pushing two interns against the wall.
		And it was a Roman Catholic hospital.
		And one of the nurses then began to speak to me in a very soothing voice.
		And I've always, I guess, related to the feminine principle.
		And she's managed to call me.
		And then I went to a beautiful place where they did the surgery, a beautiful valley filled with marvelous people and so forth who kind of kept me company until I returned to the body this time this day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you once again left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you came back, you actually became conscious, then once again unconscious.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it they gave you a general and under you went and away you went.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		The nun then managed to call me.
		My first audience for all of this art in my room was a child who was dying when I recovered consciousness in a couple days.
		And the nuns in this Roman Catholic hospital seemed to understand that I had been someplace, that I'd had this near-death experience.
		Of course, they didn't call it that then.
		And they asked me to speak to the parents.
		The child was already in kind of a comatose state, and to assure them, you know, that their child would be going to a beautiful place, that I had been there and I had seen it.
		And I was able to bring them comfort.
		And somehow at age 11, and that's what got me started.
		I realized if I shared these things, that it could bring people hope, inspiration, comfort, realization that there is more.
		We are souls inhabiting a fleshly body.
		There's more to us than even the most imaginative of us tend to believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I've heard, as a matter of fact, they even did a piece on this on 2020 or 60 Minutes, forget what it was, doesn't matter.
		They had a doctor say, well, we believe this area that people go to, or this light they see, is the brain which is dying from the outside in.
		And as the outside dies, you see this core of light, which is in fact the core of your brain, in an attempt to explain it medically.
		If you were standing in front of that doctor and listening to that, what would you say?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess one thing I would say is you haven't been there.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		It's fine to theorize about these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And you know, I had the most beautiful imitation rose sitting in front of me, but it's not real.
		We can imitate, we can replicate, but then there's the real.
		Then there is that which is transformative.
		There is that which tells us that what we really know in our hearts, that we are more than physical things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so that's how strongly you feel about it.
		You would just say, you haven't been there.
		It is real.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you understand.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I've really stopped arguing with people at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because there's no point.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		There's no point.
		I have had, you know, I certainly am a human being who enjoys, I don't like to say I told you so, and I try not to, but I've had over the years so many people laugh at me because I talk about UFOs, laugh at me because I talk about ghosts, who then, after they've had their experience, they return and they don't care who argues with them because they've seen.
		Now they know.
		They have experienced.
		So I taught college for a number of years and the bright young ladies in the department used to set me up with the scientists.
		So every lunch for me became a debating society.
		And when I was young and earnest, I did that.
		I debated, I debated, and tried to sway with intellect and knowledge and footnotes.
		Now I realize these are individual mystical experiences.
		And once you have had one, you cannot be dissuaded.
		You cannot be told.
		You don't care what someone thinks or someone believes or disbelieves because you know.
		It is that noetic sense of knowing.
		It's beyond reason.
		It must be beyond intellect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it must be a great comfort.
		Brad, hold on one moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is Brad Steiger.
		Stay right where you are.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I put that forth in my books in the late 60s.
		And at that time, people weren't ready.
		I mean, friends like J. Ellen Hynek and so forth said, man, you are really off the deep end.
		These are solid, clunk, clunk, physical.
		And, of course, Sherry was Ellen Hynek's manager right up to the very end, working with him.
		And he came very much to see the multi-dimensional, the paraphysical dimension.
		And like I say, I have chased these beings, if you will, all over the world.
		And what I have seen, what I have witnessed with my own eyes, and of course we know, we know, I think it was, I don't remember who it was, Arthur C. Clarke or someone who said that the science of an advanced generation would look like magic to us.
		So nothing I can say is dogmatic.
		So please understand that.
		It seems what I have seen with my own eyes and my own experience seems to be multidimensional or paraphysical more than it seems to be physical.
		But I'm not denying the physical.
		I would never do that.
		But I'm saying the bulk of what we see, I think, is multidimensional or paraphysical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're not going to have time for you to answer this completely right now, but I had on my program the other day an individual, and I've had faxes from individuals lately.
		And I know this sounds crazy, and it sounds like a TV series revisited, but they firmly, literally claim they are immortal.
		People who claim their aging process has halted.
		Is there such a thing in your view?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I think there are ascended masters who walk among us.
		I think the striving for immortality or reversing the aging process, I think at this point, I think I know to whom you're referring.
		I don't think it's happened yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		time will tell but i i don't think we're going to see these people being able to demonstrate what they hope to a lot of them are not interested in demonstrating anything at all and figure that uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		they'll end up being guinea pigs if they I was just curious.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, okay, maybe.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I would say that I think there may be such timeless beings walking among us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whoa, that was the question.
		All right.
		All right, Brad.
		Stand by.
		You've got several minutes, so just relax and we'll be right back to you.
		This, of course, from near the area there.
		Brad, welcome back.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		With that many books under your belt, I don't know where to begin, except having had the early childhood experiences that launched you into this, for those that just joined us at this hour, you must have studied quite a few haunted houses.
		Haunted houses have absolutely fascinated me all my life.
		What story would you relate or stories of the best cases of haunting that you've run into?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would probably have to.
		I'm not good at choosing the best when I've been involved with so many.
		I know you understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I would relate probably, you know, maybe kind of do a pastiche here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		What I've tried to do in this book, this current book, it is a collection of some of my favorite hauntings.
		And you've put your finger on something, though, Art.
		I think when we talk about haunted houses, no matter how scary, if we see a movie about haunted houses or ghosts, you know, on one level, they are telling us something very positive, that there is life after death, that something survives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So in the haunted houses, I really began with the whole idea, I mean, I was like a botanist.
		If I heard a rare flower was blooming in Brazil, then I went there to be there when the moon came up.
		So that was my attitude.
		I wanted to investigate as many as possible.
		And in those days, as I say, I was extremely intellectual.
		I mean, I was rationalizing and explaining away everything.
		And then I ran up against things that, you know, could not be explained by squirrels in the attic or knocking water pipes.
		I mean, things that really were on the ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So one of the houses we investigated, I'll start with this one.
		I find it one of the most dramatic because I was, along with several other 200-pound men, lifted into the air by this entity.
		This was a situation where a number of murders over the years had taken place in this house.
		I mean, generations apart, but there seems to somehow be vibrations or energies that exist.
		And some people may not know when they move in that a murder has been committed in their home.
		And somehow they end up replicating the terrible deed that was done before.
		Well, this happened to be the case with this house.
		And there had been a double murder in the garage.
		There had been a double murder in the basement.
		When we were called by the police and others to investigate, most of the phenomena were taking place in the basement.
		The woman would go down, turn on the faucets, and blood would come pouring out of the faucets.
		There seemed to be faces on the wall.
		There seemed to be things happening.
		But then this one back room in which the murder had taken place, both murders were of a jealous husband who came home and blew his wife and the lover away with a shotgun, even though it may have been a generation apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Most hauntings, Brad seem to be, I've noticed, because of unrequited love, because of a violent death, because of.
		What do you think happens?
		Is it that the soul is somehow unable to move on?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I still have to intellectualize things.
		You have to bear with me.
		I think there are varieties of hauntings.
		I used to, when someone said a soul waiting to move on, I thought, oh, no, come on.
		Now I see that that truly could be the case in some hauntings.
		I think when we're dealing with a ghost phenomenon, a ghost is like a photograph.
		A ghost is a photograph that somehow replicates itself in the environment.
		People say, why are these ghosts always built around terrible things that have happened?
		Well, they're not.
		There are happy ghosts.
		I've gone to places and I hear from people all the time who have a ghost that they consider like a member of the family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard that too.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		So again, there are happy ghosts, but the ones that we seem to hear about without question happen around violent death, as you said, of some nature, great emotion involved, and unfortunately, too often the emotion of hatred.
		So in this particular case, now did I answer your question?
		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you did, but you threw a kink in it when you talked about happy ghosts.
		Yeah, I too heard of them.
		So what does that add up to then?
		Does that add up to some souls who want to be here can be here otherwise?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I don't have any final answers.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I have to put them in categories, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I have to say that there are those in which it seems there is a malignant energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes I think the house itself hates people.
		I mean, I think there is an energy within a house.
		It may have nothing to do with the people involved, but somehow it poisons the people involved.
		For example, almost every major hotel, I don't know if you know this or not, I've run into this, has what they call the suicide room.
		Did you know that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard of the Ms. Powell Hotel here in Nevada?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		No, but that may be one, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is one.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is one.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Where suicides happen.
		Someone comes in, they feel depressed, they don't know, and then suddenly they feel encouraged, they feel motivated to do the act.
		So you know what I'm talking about.
		There seems to be residue of emotions in some places.
		In this particular house, I went into the back room with a psychic medium to try to get some impressions, and the door kept trying to close.
		Now, to close art, it had to move uphill because this is an old, old house.
		In the basement, you know, the floor was unlevel.
		So it had to move uphill, and then it had to, part of the cement kind of stopped it.
		So it normally, even if it did blow in the wind, it would be stopped by this little raising segment of the floor.
		But this would move itself and try to close and lock me into the room.
		Now, I had a friend of mine, a husky former Green Beret, whose buddy always goes with me, used to go in these cases.
		There are some other good-sized men there.
		So I said, hold the door open.
		You know, don't let it close because we're trying to pick up impressions here.
		When I finally then, when we finished, I said, okay, the darn door wants to be locked or closed.
		Close it and lock it.
		Well, that was the wrong thing to say, and I said it with a little too much of an attitude.
		We went upstairs.
		We were just starting to pick up impressions in other parts of the house, and all of a sudden, bam, we hear in the basement.
		And then it sounds like King Kong coming up from those basement stairs, one by one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's where I'd be going.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		The door then from the basement throws itself open, and every one of us in the room were lifted into the air and then dropped.
		Just as if to say, watch your mouth, sonny.
		I had my friends, and they ran immediately down to the room that we had just locked, and the door had literally been thrown off its hinges.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		See, now, how did you manage to, at that point, even say where you were?
		I mean, my feet would be saying, get me out of here.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		In those places, Art, I have to dissociate myself.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I know, again, through meditation, through prayer, through other areas, and this can be carried too far, and my wife is certain that I don't carry it, but I can enter a mental state where I just shut off my emotions, my reactions, and so forth, and just kind of become a camera, you know, recording what I'm doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An observer.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I'm in the scene, but I'm observing the scene.
		And I think that's part of being a writer, too, because everything that happens to me, I know someday is Chris for my mill.
		Everything that happened to me.
		Someday I'm going to write about it.
		But again, I have to, and my wife is very good about saying, hey, no, no, you're not the Brad machine.
		Some of my friends have called me when I get into that.
		Oh, the Brad machine is taking over.
		So, you know, you're not the Brad machine now.
		You're back with us and so forth.
		But in those cases, I have to.
		Or like you say, I mean, I guess what it did for me, too, because I had intellectualized this so much, I realized here again, my massive intellect didn't help at all in that case.
		I mean, that door went flying off its hinges.
		Something came up, something you could not understand, something you couldn't put in the test tube, something you could put in the formula and explain away.
		There was an intelligence, there was a force, there was an energy in that house that didn't want to be messed with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many, obviously.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		It wanted to be respected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many of you respected?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many of you were lifted into the air?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Oh, let's see.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		It must have been three women and four or five men.
unidentified		Wow.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And each of us men were 200 pounders.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		All at once, my friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you had insulted this entity.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I had.
		Yes, I had.
		And I have learned to be circumspect since.
		I was young then.
		I was much younger then.
		Well, then the explorations of different houses, different areas.
		Again, you were talking, you know, how to, we said, I said I don't try to convince people anymore.
		There was this one, the house, again, originally the police asked us to investigate at the time because so many phenomena.
		This was a marvelous home, beautiful home in which a former local politician had lived.
		And when he passed away, his two maiden daughters lived there until their death.
		But several people had seen every night from the field in which the old stables had been, Papa would materialize, walk across the lawn and into the house, and then you could hear the daughters talking to Papa.
		I mean, he would come back each night to them, who now were getting up in years themselves.
		I suppose to them they simply went back in time, and it was Papa coming in from checking the horses and having a normal evening with them.
		So we investigated.
		The caretaker was very cooperative.
		The police officer who had put me onto the case, you know, was a good friend.
		He'd taken crop circle pictures for me.
		He'd taken from it.
		He was the eye in the sky, the traffic airplane cop.
unidentified		Yes, of course.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		The eye in the sky.
		So he was going to be with me.
		He was the one that had set that up.
		And I say he'd been very cooperative, providing me, flying different places, investigating UFOs.
		He suddenly had to be somewhere else that night.
		He was shifted in his duty roster, and a police officer took his place who thought we were all crazy.
		So he was with us during the day and thought, you know, he just never resisted a chance to give me the needle.
		So that night, we're standing out there, the place where Papa is supposed to materialize or has been seen.
		And right as clockwork, you see these like little sparkly lights starting to swirl.
		And the policeman says to me, what's that?
		I said, I don't see anything.
		Couldn't resist.
		It kept forming and forming until in front of us is this image, ghostly sparking image of a man.
		And the police officer is going out of his head because I keep saying, I don't see anything, officer.
		I couldn't resist because he's going to give me the needle all day.
		So just at the time he's pulling out a service revolver, I say, no, no, no, no, no.
		I said, I see it.
		I'm sorry.
		But I said, you kind of had it coming.
		He said, yeah, I guess I kind of did.
		But he says, what in hell are we seeing?
		That's the first time I've ever put my hand in a ghost.
		I couldn't resist because the image was so, so tangible, like a hologram being projected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure shooting at it would have been poorly advised.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Poorly advised.
		But I did stick my fingers into it, and it was a tingly, tingly, cold feeling.
		You know, like we feel the cold spot in haunted houses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of like I've got on my spine.
		And, Brad, hold me there for just a second.
		Oh, boy, if that doesn't raise the hackles on the back of your...
		Huh.
		Well, I'm going to take you now to another world, inside world, inside your body.
		These are called pycnoginals.
		The hand into an entity in a tingling feeling.
		Now, see, you must have been in the classic cigar mode because there's no way in the world that I'd put my hand inside any entity.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		But I have this insatiable curiosity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, obviously.
		Obviously.
		You're lucky to still be here from my point of view.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been told that by many people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, did you just hold your hand in there or pull it out or what?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I was respectful.
		I'd learned respect by that time, you see.
		And I just, but I just had to.
		I mean, it was such a, you know, where are you going to get an opportunity like this again?
		The majority of hauntings are sounds, they're feelings, they're moans, they're groans.
		You just sell them, you know, you get a really good materialization off that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The physical manifestations.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
		So again, it paid me no attention, which again, as I say, I have to put them into categories.
		This was like a strip of film art that was being reactivated and did the same thing every night.
		It walked then into the house, didn't open the door, but made the motion and walked through the closed door and was then moving about.
		You could see the light.
		It was illuminated, and you could see it moving from room to room in the house.
		Now, again, we had a number of police officers.
		Again, interestingly, a couple police officers came back after we had left and had the same experience.
unidentified		Did they burn rubber getting out of there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would have been my reaction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they make a report on this or how did they handle this officially?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		Again, as I say, the majority are situations where the police or someone has called us in to try to determine, do an exorcism if possible.
		To my knowledge, even though these are police officers who have read my books, who have made contact, who believe in a larger reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're probably, though, the last turn they make in trying to get away from.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
		Of course, of course.
		And again, that seems unfair on one level, but I understand that.
		I understand that because everyone wants to explain it.
		And first you go to your chief and say, you know, we have a haunting here.
		And he says, right, you've been working too hard.
		Maybe you better take some leave.
		So this was almost all done unofficial, but I can say I've done it with police captains, lieutenants, chiefs of entire areas in major cities across the United States, you know, but it's all done on the QT, unofficially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and this is going to be unofficial too, Brad.
		Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman died terrible physical deaths.
		O.J. Simpson's been acquitted of those murders.
		Nevertheless, they died terrible deaths.
		Would you expect that to be the kind of case, and I'm going to hold, there's a good hook.
		We're at the bottom of the arrow.
		But I'm going to ask you when we come back if you would expect that to be the kind of case that would produce after energy.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I'd be very pleased to answer that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		And you will when we come back.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Let me get it straight now.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Young woman is going to what is the music.
		Okay, just give me a minute now.
		Anyway, she goes to this particular office, and much as the case you related, suddenly when she goes there, it is not, she even looks out the window.
		It's not the campus of today.
		It's the campus of many years ago.
		A woman is sitting at the desk, smiles, a very tall woman, very elegant woman, stands up, walks toward her as if to say, may I help you?
		And I think it was in what is now one of the music rehearsal or practice rooms, was at one time then part of the administration.
		So finally then, she had, I mean, it was just, she was so convinced she had gone back in time when she described it.
		So eventually then, in a generations, a couple generations old yearbook, they found the woman that she had seen who was a faculty member and described as very statuesque.
		And it was the picture of the woman she had seen.
		They were able to trace it.
		They were able to go back.
		So here again, she had literally walked back in time.
		I've had other cases in hotel rooms where people, again, have walked onto another floor where obviously it's another time.
		It's a fascinating, fascinating area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it worth trying if somebody wanted to actually try to travel in time, I remember how it was done in Somewhere in Time, eliminated every possible reference to the current modern world and then went into a state of very strong concentration and in despair.
		And then finally, at the right moment, of course, he did travel in time.
		I wonder, do you think that is possible?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I think it is possible.
		Now, we did it through hypnosis.
		We did this live on television.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You did?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we did.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		ABC, if I may mention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You may?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		We, and I didn't realize this was going to happen.
		We had done a number of experiments in time travel and in out-of-body projection.
		We first went on one experiment on one show, which was live on TV, so there's nothing you can do, man, it's live.
		So you really, I mean, talk about pressure.
		So I sent the subject to the host who was taking over for the regular hosts to his home in Boston.
		Not only did the subject describe his home exactly, described and looked at the makes of the various utilities and so forth, but then all of a sudden it began to describe people coming in the front door.
		And a man thought his wife was alone home.
		During commercial, he called his wife because he says, those sounds like our friends from New Hampshire.
		And sure enough, at that very moment, these friends had dropped by unexpectedly while we were projecting our subject there.
		They challenged us then on another show, and they had experts in the audience, to go back to Lincoln's Gettysburg address, to send our subject back there and describe.
		And there are a number of Lincoln scholars.
		So any detail, well, our subject came up with several details.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Incredible.
		Again, we're at the bottom of the arrow, but it brings up again the question, who's the ghost?
		Maybe exactly.
		Maybe we are.
		Thanks, Brad.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Stay right there.
unidentified		This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please do not call.
unidentified		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've made a deal with Mr. Steiger.
		30 more minutes, he's all mine.
		Half of the hour after the news, he's all yours.
		And we'll open the lines then.
		Hang tight, everybody.
		We'll get there.
		Tonight.
		All right, back down to the very much world-famous Brad Steiger.
		And Brad, we cut ourselves a little deal here.
		I absolutely love, I'm an animal lover.
		I love cats.
		And I guess your wife has authored, did she author or co-author with you a book on animals?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we have co-authored Strange Powers of Pets, more Strange Powers of Pets, and now the new one, The Mystery of Animal Intelligence.
		And she feels especially proud of this one because this was written for the teenage audience.
		It would be a selection of scholastic books, so the kids get that right in the school with their catalogs and so forth, or will be in bookstores as well, too.
		And this is all 100% scientific research, the mystery of animal intelligence.
		And then part of the deal, she will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, before you leave it, I want to understand a little bit about it.
		What is the premise?
		How does it approach trying to understand animal intelligence?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		What we're trying to do in this book is to gain a respect for animal intelligence.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		We have many recognized zoologists, biologists, and so forth who say that animals are strictly conditioned reflexes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Let me stop you right there.
		I talked to somebody not very long ago who said, you know, if I see a raccoon or a rabbit and I'm driving down the street, I swerve and I squoosh them every time I get a chance.
		You know, I thought when I heard that, Brad, if a person, to me, that's almost as much of a sin personally as killing a human being.
		Now, obviously it isn't, but the intentional, mindless taking of life.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how dare we?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how dare that person, you know, have such a callous attitude, careless attitude toward life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just for the fun of it.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So what this book is, again, is talking to those scientists, those zoologists, biologists, animal trainers, and so forth, with clear instances of a reasoning capacity, of animals using tools, animals doing things that other people, like this man you're talking about, would not think animals were capable of doing.
		So it's really a very rich book, and as I say, it was done specifically for the teenage or the educational market.
		And we were delighted.
		I mean, they started with a first printing of nearly $150,000 on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy shit.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So the schools, and this is what her, because again, she, you know, with her educational background and ministerial background, she was delighted that we're reaching the young people that way, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the title again?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		The Mystery of Animal Intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Mystery of Animal Intelligence, and how would people get that?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, it should be in all of the stores.
		Excuse me, it is a Torah book, and then the scholastic people are going to feature it in the, will be right in the schools where the kids can order it.
		So the parents can be on the lookout for it and see that their child order it.
		And then she has her book of inspiration called Seasons of the Soul.
		And that can be ordered at the same 800 number.
		Which is 800-777-3454.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm curious, your research, how do you decide, your time has to be very valuable in a lot of cases and mail and I'm sure pleas for help come your way.
		How do you decide what to pursue?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's so hard.
		And to be frank, I can't do it the way I used to, and I don't have...
		I've had to limit that to some degree.
		I put a lot of things on tape now for people.
		In the same way with the books, I'm trying to relate more.
		We dropped off the lecture circuit two years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's gruesome, isn't it?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, not to say that we won't do it again, Art, but you know, we were gone two, three weeks out of the month.
		We love people.
		We love people.
		And we love the seminar and lecture situation.
		But we really thought we kind of have to retreat.
		We kind of have to really focus on some of the books that we think are important to get out and really work our ministry that way.
		We still do work individually when the occasion arises, but I can't go to as many houses, haunted houses, as I used to, though.
		I mean, even if I'm sitting in the dental chair, someone will come in.
		I have this incredible thing happening in my house.
		You have to help me.
		And, you know, we'll always be and always want to be fuckers for humanity.
		I mean, we love people.
		We want to work with people as much as we can.
		But I'll just be frank.
		You know, I've had a limited in recent years with other demands on our time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Segue again.
		This is an area that I'm recently very curious about, and I used to laugh about a kind of, you know, all these tales about Bigfoot.
		You heard Linda Moulton Howe on Dreamland when you were our guests this last week.
		She has a tape of a scream of a creature, allegedly Bigfoot brat, and I have never, I mean, I've heard it four or five times now because I keep making her play it.
		It is the most blood-curdling, horrible, anti-human.
		I mean, it's just, is there a creature like, is there Bigfoot?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, there certainly is something because again, in my younger days, and I had some buddies who were, you know, rangers and experienced woodsmen and ex-Marines, and we would take up on a moment's notice, and we have gone all over.
		And I've heard him, and I've smelled him, and I've found the droppings, and I've picked up the hair, and we've been in situations where people, I mean, there are 30 men with 3030s and 30 opt 6s ready to go out.
		We found the dead cattle.
		We found the dogs that were broken in half.
		There's something there for a while, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that, again, it's multi-dimensional or paraphysical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something in, something out.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Something in, something out.
		Because, I mean, we've been in situations where nothing could have got away.
		And again, I've gone, whether it's Tennessee or California, I mean, it's all over, you know.
		And I've talked to people who literally go out every weekend, you know.
		In the South, they call them skunk apes.
		And, you know, they have their different names, whether it's Walk Walk or Bigfoot or Sasquatch.
		I mean, I remember friends in Canada sent me, I guess it became kind of a popular tune, Old Daddy Bigfoot, I think it was.
		Hit the charts for a while in Canada a few years back.
		I mean, there's something there.
		I'll tell you this story, which I've never put into print.
		When we were pursuing, we thought, I mean, this was in an area where whatever it was was creating havoc with the farmers and killing cattle and their dogs.
		We managed to get a clump of hair and we took it to a very well-accredited forensic scientist with a major university.
		When we came back to pick it up, the man was mad as blazes at us.
		And he said, Don't get me involved in this type of thing.
		And we said, Well, what do you mean?
		Yeah, we kind of explained to him what it was.
		He says, Yeah, yeah, right, Bigfoot.
		And well, what's the trouble?
		He says, Well, you're trying to get me involved in some divorce proceedings, aren't you?
		We said, What do you mean?
		We said, Well, this is, I mean, he says, it appears to be human or and human-like.
		I mean, and obviously you got this in somebody's bed, and now you're trying to bring them.
		So, I mean, he wouldn't even talk to us.
		But we were intrigued.
		In other words, it misled this top forensic scientist who does this for police departments all the time at one of the major universities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, wait, I'm a little unclear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was saying it was human-like.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		First, he said it was human hair.
		And then when we said, no, wait, wait, wait, we told you what it was.
		We told you where we found it because it was on a barbed wire fence is where we got it.
		But we knew it was because of the footprints of Bigfoot.
		And he said, this is human hair.
		What are you trying to pull on me?
		So that really baffled us.
		In other words, he thought it was human-like.
		I mean, so that threw another bizarre thing in it because it was long, it was coarse, but still, it convinced him that it was enough-like human that he thought he was being involved unknowingly in a divorce case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have talked many times of disappearances.
		I keep going back to movies, but I recently saw the Langoliers, which I guess the whole rest of the world saw some time ago.
		I haven't actually rented it.
		And again, it comes back to either a dimension or a time slip, or I'm not exactly sure what it is, but there are a lot of disappearances, Brad.
		They're very hard to account for.
		People who just suddenly, literally, blink out.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I have the chapter in my book, Men and Women Who Walk Through Doorways to Other Dimensions.
		In my book, Awful Thing in the Attic, because, as I said, that is one of my favorite topics.
		And a man here, Minnesota, I believe it was, sent me a remarkable case that I included there.
		And I think there's something here, if we follow it.
		He started out from his house one day walking in the field and then suddenly saw or was aware that it wasn't quite his field.
		And he looked around and it was not quite his normal environment.
		And the more he walked, he realized that it was so similar, but almost like an echo or a shadow of where he should walk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Now, again, I think we can link this in with the legends of the We People or the Elves.
		I think there is that Middle Earth.
		I mean, I get quote, quote, around Middle Earth, but that other dimension, that magic theater that is all around us.
		I think we can walk into those dimensions.
unidentified		Okay, and is it, do you wrap a lot of this into that Bigfoot lochness?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think so.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		The pictures, the photographs, like I say, we've had the droppings, we have the hair, we have the footprints, but we don't have the entity itself.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I remember years ago, are you familiar with the name Bernard Hebelmans or Ivan Sanderson?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am not.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, Bernard Hebelmans is the Belgian scientist who has written a number of books on cryptozoology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Ivan Sanderson was one of my mentors.
		He was a regular on the Gary Moore Morning Show.
		He was the zoologist that came on like people do, whether it's David Letterman or Johnny Carson.
		In an earlier time, it was Ivan T. Sanderson, who was a world-renowned, he was originally from Scotland.
		He was the zoologist.
		And I remember the late-night phone call I got, and Ivan says, you know, I have found it, lad.
		At last I have what I have searched my life, and Bernie is here with me, and they're in the northern part of Minnesota, and they found what they believed at last was the corpse of Bigfoot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Now, suddenly that became involved in one of the most incredible mysteries whatever happened.
		Now, I saw it not too long ago on Unsolved Mysteries, and there was someone portraying Ivan and Bernard, and again it ended up, they thought it was a mask from Planet of the Apes from Hollywood.
		But again, here we have two eminent zoologists who, the stink of the body, the feel of the body, but suddenly when other scientists came, here was this rubber dummy.
		Now, what happened to their theory is, and again, you know, not to get anybody in any type of trouble, but as someone told me that the person, or one of the people responsible, let's put it that way,
		because I don't want trouble for anybody, that the person felt that he'd actually shot a human being and arranged to dispose so that there would not be charges brought.
		Also, of course, it is unlawful to display a corpse.
		So this person may have felt that he was going to get nailed on two counts and did the switch.
		But I know that Ivan and Bernard and a few others eminent zoologists were in large sense discredited and in some sense never recovered.
		And it wasn't, Ivan didn't live long after that experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know Professor John Mack, I take it.
		Yes.
		John Mack has gone through tribulation recently with Harvard, which was attempted to or attempted to tamper a bit with his credentials.
		They were actually bringing him nearly up on charges for investigating the alien abduction or abduction syndrome.
		And I guess I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and put you out on the same sort of limb regarding people who claim they are taken.
		Brad, what do you think of this, these people that keep claiming that they have been taken into spaceships, they've been taken into the earth, they've been taken by alien beings or beings of some kind?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I think, again, I started writing about abductions in the 60s, long before it was popular, and I became very unpopular in research groups for writing about it.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		People felt I shouldn't deal with this, that it was nonsense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It makes people angry.
unidentified		Yes.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Now, of course, it's almost de rigueir, you know.
		I don't have too much patience with those who claim that, you know, 40 million people have been abducted.
		I think certainly that phenomenon is a very real one.
		I think most of the cases happen, again, on the mental level.
		I think in out-of-body type experiences.
		There are so many similarities between the abduction experience and some near-death experiences, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's true.
		But now I'll move you from there right into the hardware phase.
		This is from Rick and Reno.
		He says, Art, I don't know if you're aware of this, and I wasn't, but Brad co-wrote Al Belick's book, The Philadelphia Experiment and Other UFO Conspiracies.
		Actually, I think he probably did about 90% of the writing.
		And Rick would like to know how much credibility you attach to the Belick story.
		I've interviewed Al Belick, fascinating individual, a real story of hardware and time.
		So that kind of brings us full circle.
		What did you think of his story?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been very honest with this.
		When I did the Allende Allende letters in the 60s, and I wrote a book on the Philadelphia experiment then, it grew out of an article I wrote for Saga magazine.
		Remember that wonderful magazine?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And it brought me the most incredible mail of people who claimed to have had relatives on board, of people who claimed themselves to have been on board, of families who claimed they had relatives and institutions after the experiment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I have to say that something happened.
		Al at the time was the one who quietly provided me with a lot of the information and research.
		Now, Al over the year has become a friend.
		My wife and I were probably the only people other than two or three relatives at his mother's funeral, for example.
		We've loved this man, we've had him in our home.
		We were totally astonished when Al began to say that he was a participant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll leave it there.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		All I want to say is every time I think there is nothing to this story, someone in whom I put a great deal of credence comes up with another piece, another piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, something happened.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Something happened, and whether people so identify with it that they become absorbed or...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rest.
		We'll be back.
		And when we are, it's your turn.
unidentified		This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please do not call.
unidentified		Music Call Art Bell.
		Toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is my guest, the incredible, world-famous Brad Stein.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Psychologically, or who brought in discordant energies that really raised Kane.
		And I've had this happen with Phi Beta Kappas.
		I've had this happen with Dean's List A students who, again, thought intellectually they were superior to all this nonsense and just were almost psychologically destroyed.
unidentified		So I say don't play around with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose somebody said, all right, fine, I take it seriously.
		I want to try to examine this world as Brad Steiger and others have done.
		I want a serious approach to it.
		How do you then advise them?
		We're not going to party it up, but we do want to try a seance or we do want to try a Ouija board or something like that.
		Then what would you say?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, I'd be terribly arrogant if I said no one else should approach it that way but me and a few others.
		I would never say that because I think this enters into an area of what I call personal shamanism.
		I think that we all have these abilities.
		I think that we have the ability to reach out and touch higher intelligences.
		But this must be done again with prayer.
		Shaman friends of mine, you know, who fast before they try this, who fast go through a period of discipline, who go through prayer, I think it requires, I'm serious, I think it requires that same kind of attitude that you become ministers, so to speak, that you become priests, that you become shamans, that you really approach this area with that kind of seriousness and that kind of responsibility.
		And then you have every right as a sovereign entity for you to expand your universe as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just move carefully, cautiously.
		Move carefully.
		Very carefully.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		Hit and mute here.
		All right.
		Yeah, about symmetrical objects anything.
		I believe that's possible.
		I think they might be like mandalas.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Very much like.
		I did not at the age of 11 know mandala, but uh certainly I have seen some mandalas since that did resemble some of the Sufi art, some of even some Persian rugs, if you will, have come somewhat close.
		And I wondered if maybe some of those rugs were designed in an altered state of consciousness, you know?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
unidentified		I'm kind of a symmetrical being, you know, my right half and left side are, you know, they have, they do things like I'll get a pimple on my right cheek and a few days later it'll appear in the left cheek, same side, you know.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I've heard of people like that, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, so I am a symmetrical being?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
		Mr. Symmetrical?
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Boise, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boise, Idaho.
		All right.
		Brad, this also occurs to me.
		That's the reason that call resonates with me.
		I'll get a little skin mark on one side, then I'll get it in the same place on the other.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting, what physically could...
		I'm not a doctor.
		What could explain that?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Again, I think it is your innate desire to be in balance.
		And that's really the key.
		Maybe I didn't mean to sound pompous a minute ago when I said how seriously we should take it.
		But the key to all of this is, as my friend Sunbear would say, the medicine priest, walk in balance.
		We have to be in balance before we approach any of these spiritual disciplines or spiritual tasks.
		I think you may have within you, my friend, just an innate desire to be in balance, which expresses itself even in physical rashes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, did you hit that one on the head?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Stigger.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		My name is Larry.
unidentified		I'm calling from Abilene, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Larry.
unidentified		I just wanted to say something about the images, the concentric geometry.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		No, we're getting a lot on that.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Larry, let's hear it.
unidentified		Well, I've experienced something like that myself.
unidentified		By the way, I'm also a Seneca Indian.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		Okay.
		But I get images like that whenever I'm in a feverish state.
		And it only happens, not just the fever, but when I'm, say, when I'm sleeping and feverish.
		And I know exactly what you're talking about with those imaging.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And isn't that something so few people have responded and suddenly, look at the feedback we're getting tonight.
		People who have had that experience.
		I really appreciate your calling, all of you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I interviewed Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute.
		Mr. Monroe talks of, speaks of, multi-levels of ascension.
		Is that your view of things?
		Are there multiple levels of ascension?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, I think there almost have to be art.
		I've always avoided terminology like that.
		I try to keep everything as simple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But we have to use words.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		We have to use words.
		Certainly when you're in that non-verbal state, when all of this comes together in eternal now.
		But then you do have to try to translate it.
		And I think there have to be levels.
		Just as I believe in powers and principalities.
		I believe in hierarchies.
		I'm reluctant.
		There's one part of me, again, that mean, cold, intellectual part that doesn't want to.
		And then there's the part of me that experiences and explores that says, you have to.
		I mean, you have to somehow try to put it.
		Maybe you're dealing with the infinite, but you do have to put it in finite terms if you're going to communicate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, are we at, do you suppose, the lowest level?
		In other words, in our physical bodies, are we at the lowest level?
		Is everything up beyond us, or are there lower levels?
		Or what do you imagine?
		I know I'm asking for a lot of speculation.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		I think there are lower levels.
		I think it is a really nifty thing to be a human being.
		But I think so few of us recognize our potential.
		And what I try to do in my books, if I don't sound presumptuous, and I hope I don't, is to get people to explore their potentials.
		I don't care.
		I've been to lectures where people stand, someone stands up.
		I disagree with you.
		I said, but did I make you think?
		The person said, yes, you did.
		Then that's what I'm trying to do, is get people to explore their potentials, to realize that they can be so much more than they ever believed they can be.
		So I don't think we're at the lowest level.
		I think we're at a lower level than the higher beings around us.
		But I think we really are a transitional species.
		I really think we are the link between ape and angel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there.
		That's it.
		And from St. Paul, Minnesota, Lynn would like to know, Brad, whether, a big fan of yours, by the way, whether you have read a book called Nothing in this Book is True, but it's Exactly How Things Are by Bob Fazzell.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I don't think I've read that one, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because he discusses, you might want to.
		He discusses the same sort of geometric patterns that you've been talking about.
		Okay.
		So here it is.
		It's just a flood of information.
		You say it, Gordon Michael Scallion says it, and all of a sudden we're flooded.
		Let's try a quick call, see if we have time.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Brad.
		Hi.
		I'm calling from California.
		Okay.
		And I met Brad in 1983 at a Dick Sutsman conference in Arizona.
		And he told me that, telling him some of the things that had happened to me, and he told me to write about it.
		And I am a writer, but I find that I always have a writing block when it comes to the abductions that I've had and other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question.
		Brad, when you're trying to apply, obviously you're successful with that many books.
		How do you find words to describe the indescribable?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the challenge.
		That's what writing is all about.
		It's translating the thought, that non-physical vibration In our brain to paper, and then that's only the half of it.
		It has to resonate with the same buzz in the people who read it.
		So, again, the people who are blocked, I kind of do a Zen thing.
		You know, I try to write at the same time every day, but I certainly, you know, put myself into a very relaxed state.
		I don't intimidate myself with that dark on white paper staring at me.
		And I just say, you know, I can do it.
		And I've got something to share.
		I've got something worthwhile.
		People, I love them.
		And, you know, if I'm excited about a subject, I just know there's someone out there who's excited.
		I've only written, the only model and guide I've ever had all these books are is I write a book that I would like to read.
		And that's been my guide from book one to book 134 now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So a little meditation on our part.
		All right, Brad.
		Sit tight.
		We'll be back to you right after the top of the hour.
		And we are going to have to take a break here, and I want to take one more opportunity, if I could, please.
		My publisher notified me that the first edition of my new book is going to be very shortly gone.
		I want to thank everybody who has gone crazy buying it.
		It's out shipping this week.
		If you would like a copy of my new book called The Art of Talk, which covers Dreamland topics, covers talk radio, covers my life.
		And by the way, we've got a photograph of a ghost in there.
		That's what I wanted to talk to you about.
		Photograph of a ghost.
		Boy, have I got a good one.
		It's in my book, and we'll talk about it when we come back.
		My book, if you'd like to order it, The Art of Talk, call now.
		1-800-864-7991.
		That's 1-800-864-7991.
unidentified		1-800-864-7991.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		World famous Brad Steiger, to get a copy of this program.
		I repeat now, to get a copy of this program, you may call 1-800-917-4278.
		1-800-917-4278.
		And I mentioned a photograph of a ghost in my book.
		I'm going to be asking, it is in my book.
		There are so many photographs in my book that it's hard to recall them all.
		But since we're talking about this area, I do have a very, very sharp photograph, the best I've ever seen of a ghost.
		Brad has many in his book.
		We'll talk to you about that in a moment.
		Again, the number to order my book before the first edition runs out, I can't believe that's occurring, is 1-800-864-7991.
		1-800-864-7991.
		Do I sound excited about it?
		I am.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brad Steiger.
		Hi, Brad.
		Hi.
		Your latest book is called The Awful Thing in the Attic.
		God, what a great title.
		It is a compilation, you say, of some of the best of the best.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, some of the things we've been talking about tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you have.
		Now, let me tell you, and then we'll give out the number for your book.
		But in the book that I am just now coming out with, I have a picture, Brad, a stonemason down in Arizona had done some work in about a hundred-year-old home down in Arizona.
		And he took a photograph.
		He was proud of his work.
		So when he was done, he took a photograph of the stonework.
		And I'm telling you, Brad, I've never seen anything like it in my life.
		And I've seen a lot of things portending to be ghosts.
		But this was clearly a kind of smoky, I would describe it as a smoky, semi-translucent being.
		I mean, no question about it.
		I mean, clear as it can be.
		I put it in my book, and every time I look at this photograph, it sends chills down my spine.
		This is a ghost.
		Yeah.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got some of my favorites in the book, as you might suspect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And then I have the handwriting of a ghost.
		The famous Borley rectory in England, called England's Most Haunted House for years.
		The entity began writing when one pastor or Episcopalian moved in and his wife seemed to really somehow activate the sympathy, a sort of a sympathical rapport with the entity, and began to write to Mary Ann, the priest pastor's wife.
		So one of the investigators of that famous case, Borley Regby Byrne, some years ago, but sent me specimens of that handwriting of a ghost.
		I've included that in the book as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do people get your latest?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, hopefully, as with all the others, it would be in their favorite bookstore.
		But if not, if I may give out an 800 number, you may.
		It is 800-777-3454.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a good number.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		1-800-777-3454.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they want to ask for...
		You know, how come you decided to call it that instead of the awful thing in the basement?
		Everybody knows that bad things are usually in the basement.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but in a house, in architecture, what is the attic?
		What does that represent?
		The mind.
		So the basement is the earthy part where maybe demons exist, but the demons that exist in the mind might be even more fierce than those that exist in the basement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't go as far as say that the better things are in the attic and the more evil, darker things are in the basement?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		That would be one level, but if we look at it architecturally, the attic would represent the psyche or the mind or the soul.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		So part of the book is also symbolical art of saying, you know, we have to keep our attic clean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to a couple of calls.
unidentified		Shirley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Brad Steiger.
		Hi.
		Hi.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Just a thought.
unidentified		You were talking about the geometric images earlier.
unidentified		And I was wondering if there might be any connection between them and crop circles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah.
		All right.
		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Abilene, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Abilene, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a good question, Brad.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		It is a good question.
		These were so colorful and so intricate.
		Now, I have seen some very intricate crop circles, but who can say?
		Who can say?
		Maybe this is the primum mobilium.
		You know, maybe that's what I touched, and maybe that's what's showing up in the crop circles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen images?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen images of crop circles that remind you of the shapes you saw?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		The only thing I've ever seen that reminds me, as I say, is these factal geometric designs, fractal geometry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's one that was inevitable.
		Hi Art, love the show.
		Calling my friends to let them know how to tune in.
		Now, please ask your guest who he believes Jesus was.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Jesus is whomever you wish him to be, whoever you want him.
unidentified		This is a powerful enemy in his past.
unidentified		To me, Jesus is our photograph of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's wonderful.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, hi.
		Brad, years ago, you wrote an introduction to a book written by Paul Twitchell called In My Soul, I Am Free.
		And for the listeners who don't know, Paul Twitchell is an out-of-body traveler, a la Robert Monroe.
		And I was wondering, since Paul Twitchell left the physical plane, I believe it was around 1971, if you could share some of your experiences with him.
		I have heard incredible things about this man who I even heard was able to change the local weather according to his wishes and several other phenomenal stories.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess you know from reading the introduction, I was present one of those times when he changed the weather.
unidentified		That's what I recall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I would like to hear about that myself.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, Paul Twitchell was the living eckmaster of Ekenkar.
		I was privileged to know him for a number of years.
		He was a fascinating fellow.
		He never pressured me at all to become an ekist or to join his particular movement.
		I guess he recognized me as a young scholar of the unknown, and we became friends on that level.
		We would meet just as friends in different cities in the United States, just to spend time.
		But I've always felt as though I'm walking through time, and I think Paul Twitchell is one of those who walked through time.
unidentified		Well, the lady said something about you were present when you were.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was present a number of times when, like a powerful shaman, I've seen shaman do it as well, but Paul Twitchell had that ability to seemingly reach up and arrange the thermostat the way he wanted to, to change from rain to sun or vice versa, depending upon.
		He was a remarkable man, and I really felt as though I was privileged to know him at a very important developmental time of my life.
		And I've included material about him in a couple new books that will be coming out, as a matter of fact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brad, I've got to ask you about something real serious.
		Very serious.
		I have been watching over many years now, and because of the nature of the work I do, you know, I'm on top of the news every day.
		I have never in my life seen as many volcanic eruptions, as many earthquakes, as many hurricanes.
		I believe we're down to P in the...
		And in all of record-keeping, Brad.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's never been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's going on?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was privileged some years ago.
		Some scientists brought me two semi-trader truckloads of material in which they had been studying with a staff of thousands.
		The weather, I put this together in a book called Roadmap of Time, which outlined everything that's happening now, but I guess it scared the heck out of everybody.
		It was the big seller in Britain, Europe, but it did nothing here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's scaring me.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I call it...
		The Nazis tried to steal this information in World War II.
		These two scientists in Chicago had staff of thousands put all this together.
		And their heirs brought me this material.
		I spent two years putting it together called The Roadmap of Time, which I thought was a tricky little title, too.
		But France and England loved it.
unidentified		Anyway, this is time cycle art.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		And we're entering a period of volcanism.
		Entering a period of volcanism and dramatic earth changes.
		And it's nothing that's happened because we're evil and nasty.
		It's just the roadmap of time.
		It's the calendar of time.
		It's just like winter comes for us here in the Midwest, not because of any particular thing we have done or haven't done.
		It's the season.
		This is the season for volcanism and storms and hurricanes, even before we started mucking it up with global warming and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brad, is there, as we understand it, and there are the Mayan calendar and people who feel there may be errors in the Mayan calendar and feel that literally the end of time is not far ahead?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I feel it's a transition.
		I'm the eternal cockeyed optimist.
		And I think we're on the very brink of those.
		I think we're going to see more and more people beginning to make quantum leaps.
		I think we are in the process of evolving from Homo sapiens to Homo spiritus, thinking man to spiritual man.
		And, you know, regretfully, in every quantum evolutionary leap forward, we will pray that as many people will be open to this and prepare for this as possible.
		We know that some people will resist.
		Some people perhaps will not be prepared for that transition.
		But we do have an opportunity.
		I don't think we're coming to the end of the world.
		I think we're coming to a dramatic transitional phase.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly something.
		Economically, politically, socially, every area you look at right now, I have sort of summed it up by calling it the quickening.
		It feels like a quickening.
		Things are.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		That's a good term, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're moving faster and faster and faster, and it's headed towards something.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, that's a very good term.
		The number one thing, aspect, question, comment that I get in the hundreds of letters I get every week is expressing what you have just said, my friend.
		That time is accelerating, that people know they're supposed to be doing something.
		The number one thing I get at is, what is my purpose?
		What is my mission?
		And again, I'm not trying to be coy, but I have dealt with this in so many books, and I do refer them to certain books where I do try to show people techniques and exercises whereby they can hopefully achieve greater insight into their mission and purpose in life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So more spiritualism?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well that's...
		I think we are here for that reason.
		I think this is schoolhouse earth and I think we are here given opportunities for graduation and progression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yet, more and more these days, Brad, there seems to be evidence of the opposite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, someone takes a wrong turn down an alley, and children are shot by gangs who have nothing better to do.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		This is all part of this unrest.
		And as I said, these scientists had studied every aspect of human endeavor, including sociological eruptions, including political unrest, including all of these things.
		I don't think I've ever been so disappointed.
		I've been so blessed to have so many of my books achieve, you know, hundreds of thousands, million copies, and so forth.
		This book did nothing.
		I think it's one of the most important.
		And I'm not bragging because I edited it.
		I took this material.
		I'm not taking credit for any of this material.
		I was privileged to put it together.
		And as I say, I got permission from France, from England, for her.
		Oh, can we quote this?
		Can we quote that?
		There were maps and diagrams and charts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just disappeared.
		Here's something that I want to ask you that I've been wondering about myself.
		I have had great success, Brad.
		You have had great success in your field.
		Are there quiet moments where you wonder and ponder why and why you're so successful, whether something special has been given to you or whether you owe something because of it?
		I think every person who achieves some level of success has serious moments of pondering why.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		All the time.
		All the time.
		I felt I was, when I died at age 11, I came back an older.
		I mean, I felt that I had the responsibility to share this, to share this good news that we are more than physical things, that we are spiritual beings, that we have an opportunity to help others.
		I think the bottom line is sharing and being one with others.
		The oneness is the important thing to me.
		And again, I feel blessed.
		And I feel that people say, my goodness, why do you keep going?
		Why do you keep doing this?
		Why do you keep...
		I can't share enough.
		I'm just...
		She had near-death experiences, children.
		She is an ordained Protestant minister.
		And I guess we are both just on fire with the zeal of sharing.
		This is our mission.
		See, we look upon it as a mission or a ministry, but I think people will agree.
		And I get wonderful letters saying, we're so happy, you're so objective.
		You don't push, you just present.
		And that's what I try to do, because if I sit down beside someone who says, I have the only answer, I have the only way, I know I'm going to get off that bus.
		I mean, I'm not going to go on a bus trip with someone who has all the answers, the only way, the only purpose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those people worry me as well.
		Stand by, Brad.
		We'll be right back.
		A little bit of business, then we'll be right back.
		Back now, a couple minutes for the bottom of the air.
		Are you there, Brad?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I am here, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see if we can get a couple calls in.
unidentified		Come on.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
		Let me do that.
		Okay, now you're on the air, I think.
		Hello.
		Hello, where are you?
unidentified		I'm from Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Illinois.
		All right.
		Hello, Art.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Mr. Steiger, you mentioned a Mr. Sun Bear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Who I believe established the Bear Tribe Medicine Society.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
unidentified		Who believes that a cycle of civilization is coming to a close.
unidentified		And you are familiar with the Hopi prophecies of a day of purification.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Most certainly.
unidentified		And the coming of the Blue Star Kachina.
		And there is a strong belief amongst the Hopi Indians and other Indian tribes that this tail pot could be a fulfillment of their prophecy.
		Oh, exactly.
		I am just researching.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you've picked up a tribal accent there.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I was trying to figure out which one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought so too, Brad.
		There is a big comet on the way called Hailbot.
		You know about it?
		Could it be this blue star?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, again.
		My wife is half Chippewa, as well as being Swedish and French.
		And she has worked with shaman and medicine people of many tribes, as have I. And I love these people, and I feel of one with them.
		I feel these things are very much symbolical.
		I feel that we are in that time of great purification.
		Excuse me, purification is what I choose.
		Not the end of the world, but another time of purification in which, you know, and I always hate to be doomsday at all, but as I say, perhaps not everyone is going to make it through.
		But a time of purification my wife and I feel is coming.
		And maybe this comet will herald it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, maybe it will herald it in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		More of Brad Steiger and Dreamland in just a moment.
unidentified		The End Let's say exaggerated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I presume that you try to be very careful about exactly that when you're relating accounts, for example, in the awful thing in the attic.
		Exactly.
		All right, very good.
		Somebody's been waiting a long time here.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
		Hi.
unidentified		No problem with the list of call.
unidentified		My name is Jack, calling from LF Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Jack.
unidentified		How are you talking, Mr. Steiger?
		Yeah, I have, I'm wondering if you're familiarity with an author by Brant, the R-A-N-D-T, Kyle from Berkeley, California, published The War in Heaven, 1989, his own press called S.R. Press.
		He, like yourself, has an attention toward, addresses the importance of attention in manifestation and how it empowers the manifestation.
		And that perhaps there might be, rather than a field of daisies at the edge of the cliff beyond that, in empowering manifestations and the cultural symbols that we pay attention to.
		And aside from rather than the idea of perceiving conflict as empowering the dark side, rather than acknowledging that there is a war in heaven and that this time of transformation might be a final contest, that this is that he names it the invisible college,
		that which would further our race and help us to transform and what he calls a group of spirits or manifestations called the elementals that have hung around too long and begun to pervert and seed, harvest human attention throughout the world.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely right.
		You've read enough of my books to know that I have dealt with exactly that topic and that theme very often and very much believe that there is a war in heaven, if you choose to put it in those terms, that there are powers and principalities, and that we as human beings may indeed be the prize, and the prize of war, so to speak.
		The spoils of war, if you really want to be denigrating, I guess, to some people's ego.
		And so I very much believe that.
		A British author, you said something about a staggering amount, Art.
		He has written a book called The Dark Gods, in which he refers to the steiger effect, which I, well, in one of my books, I say, you know, again, how we deal with negativity is to confront it, always being cautious and so forth, but how we must drive it back.
		So I definitely don't think I'm familiar with this particular book.
		Again, please forgive me because people send me books and things.
		I love it, but sometimes I can't always keep up.
		But certainly the caller is right.
		My wife and I have dealt with that particular theme in a number of our books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it is a war, and we are the prize.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seems like we ought to be rooting for one side or the other, eh?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, and that's the ticklish part, because by their works you shall know them.
		But again, as my wife always says so well, how does the negative, the dark side, present itself?
		It will never present us as ugly monsters.
		It's always going to be the seductive, beautiful things that they will throw at us to delude us and seduce us.
		Well, it requires balance.
		It requires discipline and discernment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Try this on for size.
		I'll let it haunt you the way it has haunted me.
		All right, by the way.
		There is a friend of mine, the son of Bill Lear, John Lear.
		I'm sure you've heard the name.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On one of my programs years ago, he said something that I'll never forget.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He said, Art, it is my feeling, or I've been told, let me get this straight, that when you die or have a near-death experience, the light is a trick and you should go to the darkness.
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		I could not accept that from my personal experience, Art, but I would translate what John said, because I know John.
		We are certainly acquaintances.
		I would interpret that as continual vigilance.
		As I said, discipline, discernment, and we must be vigilant always.
		One of my books, I guess, that I resonate with in terms of the title is One with the Light, which as we speak is being made into a pilot film for hopefully, we'll sell it, there'll be a series, which deals with the near-death experience, but also the entire aspect of what it tells us about ourselves, about what we really are and who we really are, and how to utilize this energy.
		So certainly, I would not say go to the darkness.
		I would say learn to discern and discriminate who the players are.
		As I've often said, when some people have said, oh, I want to go for a ride in a UFO, and if the UFO lands, I will get in it and go off to this.
		I said, well, before you do, ask to see the driver's license.
		I mean, you want to know who you're getting board with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Brad Steiger.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Utica, New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Utica, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, man.
unidentified		I wanted to ask Mr. Steiger his opinion on meditation or transcendental meditation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I guess that's, we've been talking a lot about that.
		In other words, that is the path to the greater understanding, is it not?
brad steiger ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly meditation.
		Transcendental meditation may refer to a particular kind.
		I am not conversant enough.
		My friend John White has written a whole entire book about transcendental meditation.
		But meditation itself, I think, is the discipline, Paramahansa Yogananda Self-Realization Fellowship that I resonate very much with.

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