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Sept. 4, 1995 - Art Bell

02:47:45

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Fox TV Special Alien Autopsy - Bob Shell

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	Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you good morning.
	From the Pacific paradise of Tahiti, the Hawaiian Islands, our affiliates, our affiliate there KHBH and Honolulu, All the way to the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, presently threatened by a Category 4, maybe soon 5, hurricane.
	This is a bad one.
	And we'll be talking to the people in the Virgin Islands a little later this morning, as this big storm bears down on them.
	South into South America, north to the North Pole.
	This is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	Many of you will have seen the repeat, or maybe you even saw it for the first time.
	Uh, it was sort of a repeat by demand of the alien autopsy.
	The purported alien autopsy.
	Done on Fox.
	Well, I've done a little of my own homework.
	And I have found the man that Linda Moulton Howe talked about.
	Uh, on Dreamland Sunday.
	His name is Bob Schell.
	He's a photo analyst.
	He has done consulting work for the FBI once.
	Actually was in the CIA, he tells me, though it's certainly not relevant to this.
	And if it was, he couldn't tell us anyway, of course.
	But he's got some shocking news, actually on several aspects of the whole Roswell business.
	So I'm going to take care of a little bit of business first, and we're going to go, I think, to New York, Manhattan.
	We're going to talk directly with bob shell who was nice enough to get up at
	this time of the morning for us
	now let's go i think to manhattan I think that's where Bob is.
	Bob, actually, where are you?
	I'm in Washington, D.C.
	right at the moment.
	Oh boy, missed that one by a couple miles, huh?
	Washington, D.C.
	Well, that's even better.
	I was up here to do some other radio interviews.
	might we ask i was appeared to do some pretty other radio interviews
	i see who is bob shell
	bob shell i guess is a photo analyst how long have you been doing this bob
	well i've been involved in photography in one aspect or another for over thirty
	years now okay
	kodak uh... with regard now to the uh...
	uh... the alien autopsy thing uh... kodak
	uh... kodak went on fox and said
	went on fox instead there was a little square followed by a triangle this will
	there was a little square followed by a triangle this will date the film to
	date the film to either nineteen twenty seven forty seven or sixty seven
	either nineteen twenty seven forty seven or sixty seven regarding the
	regarding the manufacturer of the film
	manufacturer of the film there's a lot of new information since then and you're the
	there's a lot of new information since then and you're the guy who has got it
	guy who's got it yellow it's important to note that on the park program the
	yellow it's important to note that on the park program the the alien autopsy thing
	only correct person who's willing to talk to them on camera
	with larry kate who is in fact a salesperson
	not a technical person whatsoever okay in their hollywood office
	not to detract from mister kate just that's not what he is in other words he was not a photo analyst
	no and uh...
	the real photo analysts from kodak have not been willing to comment to anybody
	on camera yet but that's further down the road
	the decoding as you say indicates 1927, 1947, or 1967.
	After the 60s, they changed the coding system so it wouldn't indicate 87.
	But, the film base, the physical material that the film is made out of, was different in those different years.
	In 27, it was cellulose nitrate, a very highly flammable material, which they stopped using later on.
	In the 40s, it was a type of acetate called acetate propionate.
	And later after that, in the 50s, they switched to triacetate.
	All right, now let me just stop you there.
	It was my understanding that what they gave to Kodak for analysis was not actually imagery, but just part of the leader.
	Would that be correct?
	Well, Kodak has done no analysis whatsoever.
	Kodak has only done a physical examination, meaning that they just looked at a piece of film.
	Film or leader?
	Film.
	I'm not sure where this leader bit came from.
	Well, in other words, that portion which would be there prior to the first images appearing, actually appearing.
	Yeah, technically speaking, leader is film.
	Extra material spliced onto the film.
	Oh, I see, okay.
	This is a continuous piece of the roll of film.
	Alright.
	And they looked at that just to look at the edge marking.
	Anybody could look at the edge marking and see a triangle and a square.
	But that's not really in any analysis.
	Somehow you got an actual piece of the film, didn't you, with an image?
	Well, I've had several different pieces of the film.
	I have a piece in my possession at the moment.
	Uh-huh.
	But different pieces of the film are present in the hands of different analysts who are doing different things with them.
	All right.
	And my job was to try to determine if the film was actually from 1947.
	Right.
	And based on preliminary, and I say preliminary because I have not finished the test, Based on preliminary analysis, it is.
	Because it's the right chemical type of film base for 1947.
	And it corresponds, in all the other characteristics, to Kodak Super XX, which is the type of film the cameraman says it is, from 1947.
	Boy, that's big news, if it's true.
	Now, let me ask you this.
	Would it have... A lot of people say, well, fine.
	Maybe somebody saved some old 1947 film and exposed it here in the last several years or whatever.
	Would the film have had to have been exposed roughly in that time period?
	That's very critical.
	Well, there's several points to know about.
	One of them is that Super XX is a very high speed film.
	Very sensitive film.
	And the higher the speed of the film, the less shelf life it has.
	This film had a very short shelf life.
	We're looking for the most part here at images of very high quality.
	There's not a lot of fog.
	Fog is what builds up as film ages before it's exposed and processed.
	This film shows very low fog levels.
	This puts us within a fairly narrow window.
	I can't say that this film was absolutely exposed and processed in 1947.
	But I can say it was exposed and processed while it was still quite fresh, which in this case probably means a window of two, three years at the most.
	Well, that's very narrow.
	In other words, somebody could not have done this last year, say.
	It was not done recently.
	Okay.
	If, in fact, this is a hoax, it's a hoax that was done quite a few years ago.
	Uh-huh.
	Why not ask you?
	You have seen I guess the audience should now know, you have seen at least 20 minutes of the film that none of the rest of us have yet seen, including apparent scenes of the wreckage.
	Is that correct?
	Well, it's scenes of debris.
	There's no scenes that I have seen of the field where the thing crashed.
	Right, I understand.
	But I've seen films showing pieces of the wreckage on tables.
	Being lifted up and turned around at different angles and displayed for the camera.
	Wow.
	As told by that lady on the Fox show, she said she sat and played with the piece for several minutes.
	That sort of thing, I take it.
	Well, you know, it's interesting.
	I think the reason Fox did not show the film of the debris is because the debris does not look like the descriptions given by any of the witnesses.
	Okay.
	The I-beams, as you saw in the program that Jesse Marcel was describing, are fairly narrow, skinny little things that look like they're made out of balsa wood.
	Huh.
	The I-beams that we have in the film are fairly large.
	I'd say maybe two and a half inches tall, maybe three inches wide, obviously made of some quite strong metal, with the writing not painted on them in some color, but the writing is actually part of the metal and raised above the surface of the metal.
	Wow.
	And the writing looks nothing like the hieroglyphics that Marcel has described.
	Can you describe it?
	Yes, it looks like ancient Greek.
	Ancient Greek?
	It isn't, but I mean, it's that type of... it's letters.
	It looks like an alphabet, angular and circular.
	One person who's looked at the quote writing says he thinks it's a form of digital encoding, and it's digitally encoded information.
	Well now, nobody, nobody was doing that in 1947.
	Oh, no.
	Nobody was.
	But again, another person has looked at it and says it's ancient Phoenician, so.
	That's remarkable.
	We have to find out who knows what they're talking about here.
	Oh, that's absolutely remarkable.
	So, and, well, why in the world would you think, now, does Fox have possession of this film?
	Oh, yes.
	Why aren't they running it?
	What Fox says, Fox says the autopsy, which we've seen A small part of.
	They have this, I think it's about two and a half minutes long, of the pieces of the wreckage.
	And they also have what's been referred to as the tent scene.
	A scene of one of the aliens lying on a cot, or on top of a box, you can't really tell because it's dimly lighted.
	Right.
	That was shot the night of the crash in one of the tents under the light of emergency lanterns.
	And some technicians are working on the creature, but exactly what they're doing, it's very hard to determine because lighting is so poor.
	Well, gee, Bob, if this is a hoax, it's beginning to sound awfully elaborate.
	Oh, it is.
	If it's a hoax, it's elaborate and must have been extremely expensive to do.
	I mean, this is, we've got to keep it in perspective.
	This is not a trivial question.
	It's why I've borne in on it so hard.
	As they said, one good thing they said at the beginning of the Fox film was, if this film is real, then it's the biggest story of our lives.
	It is the biggest story of mankind.
	It means there are others.
	It means we have been visited.
	And so, why are the other networks, for example, Not picking up on it at this point.
	The reaction to the Fox show was absolutely stupendous.
	So much so they had to rerun it and I take it they're going to be even running more.
	They're going to be doing sequels.
	Sequels, right.
	What in the world is the matter with the rest of the networks?
	They can't use the film.
	Fox bought exclusive rights to it.
	So without the visual aid They're unwilling to do the story.
	Well, I'd say that there's not too much point in doing the story if you can only run a few image grabs, a few frame captures of still images from the film, which is all you can run if you aren't Fox.
	I see.
	The impact is somewhat lost.
	I suspect we will see the other networks and the other traditional news media catching on to this story at some point and starting to cover it.
	All right, here's another question for you, and there are going to be many from the audience, and yes, audience, you will be able to talk to Bob here in a bit.
	Bob, a lot of people have said to me, old film like that... Well, let me go back even further.
	People have said that color existed, and so there have been complaints of, well, why, they say, wasn't it in color?
	They had color then, they had the Wizard of Oz, and so why didn't they use color?
	Well, the cameraman's version of this As I understand it, this particular thing I have not confirmed with him directly, this is just my understanding, is that he was not taking what we would call the primary documentation.
	This film was more of a moving chronicle to show exactly the sequence of things and what was going on.
	Right.
	When he paused between rolls of film, his rolls of film were about 2 minutes and 40 seconds long.
	Right.
	He had to pause to reload the camera between those rolls.
	When he took that pause to reload, there was a still photographer who came in and was taking high-quality still images, some of which would have been in color.
	I see.
	That would have been the primary documentation supported by this 16mm film.
	And that was occurring in the interim as he reloaded?
	Right.
	Okay, but the question went to this.
	Would it have been normal To have used black and white film at that time for that kind of application?
	Color existed, but color had to be sent out for processing.
	For reasons of security, they wanted this film processed internally.
	And the only thing they were equipped to process internally easily was black and white.
	That makes sense.
	So that's one of the reasons that they didn't use color for this.
	The other reason being that the color films of those days were quite slow, required a whole lot more light, and he was working under marginal conditions for a lot of his filming, and would not have been able to use the existing color films because they just weren't fast enough, or sensitive enough.
	Have you seen anything... They referred, of course, you know, to the clock on the wall and said, yes, it was of the right period, and the telephone with the curly cord, yes, it was of the right period.
	Have you yet seen anything in the film that shoots a hole in the possible validity of it?
	I'm waiting for that.
	An expert like yourself to say, aha, here it's fake.
	There's no hole that proves it's fake.
	There are some things that send up cautionary flags.
	One of the things to me that sends up cautionary flags is that you don't see anybody's face in this film.
	No?
	The people performing the autopsy, which is really not an autopsy, it's really a dissection.
	Yes.
	People doing that are all wearing these suits.
	The man who's behind the window, who is obviously isolated from them, is still wearing a surgical mask for no obvious reason.
	Well, except that one might imagine that an alien creature from some other planet would have bacteria or germs that we now regard as level 4 You know, all the hot zone kind of stuff.
	In other words, something from somewhere else.
	So I can imagine, when we handle level four organisms, microorganisms now, we wear the equivalent of what we saw in that film.
	Yeah, but the other guy is behind a glass window outside of the isolation chamber.
	With a mask on.
	He's still wearing a mask.
	It's true.
	The only conceivable reason that I could think of him wearing that mask is to disguise his identity.
	Now, that may not be a red flag as far as the validity of the film, because it may be that the people at the time didn't want it to be recognizable.
	That could easily be, too.
	For security reasons, if the film fell into the wrong hands, they wanted to remain anonymous.
	What do you find the best argument for the film's validity?
	Of course, what you've already told us about when it was exposed and when the film... In other words, you're confirming it was 1947, 1949, somewhere in that area, not 1927, not 1967, correct?
	Right.
	So that's one big argument in its favor, and as far as I'm concerned, it's big news.
	What else would you find credible in the film?
	In the film itself, I find credible just the, it's hard to put into words, but the gut feeling of reality that it produces when you see the whole thing.
	It comes through a little bit less when you see clips of it on television, when you see the whole autopsy.
	You have a strong feeling, as these pathologists have said, that you're seeing an actual body of something being detected.
	What about the comments of Stan Winston?
	They were, I thought, rather weighty as well.
	He did Jurassic Park.
	He said, we couldn't do that today.
	And if we could find the guy who did, he ought to be working for us.
	Yeah.
	So I also found that rather convincing.
	I think Stan was more convincing than most of the other experts.
	As a matter of fact, yes.
	I gave his testimony at much higher weight than some of the others because he knows what he's talking about as far as faking stuff.
	As a matter of fact, if you want to see a state-of-the-art fake body, go to see the movie that's playing right now called Prophecy and then make a comparison because even though that is an expensive production and The dead angel that they have in the movie must have cost a bundle to manufacture.
	He still looks fake.
	As compared to what's in this film?
	Right, right.
	Alright, since you know a lot about photography, one of the chief criticisms made during the film was that the photographer kept going in and out of focus and one man expert claimed At critical moments, it would go out of focus.
	Now, we've got a break here at the bottom of the hour, but when I come back, we come back, I want to ask you about that and about lenses and focus and state-of-the-art at that time.
	So, stay right there.
	My guest is in Washington, D.C.
	He's Bob Schell.
	He's a photo analyst.
	He's actually examined real imagery from the film.
	He's got a lot to say about it.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	♪♪♪ ♪♪♪
	♪♪♪ You're listening to ArcBell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight, featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	It absolutely is.
	Top of the morning, everybody.
	My guest is Bob Schell from Washington, D.C.
	He is a photoanalyst.
	He's working on the purported autopsy of an alien, the Roswell autopsy.
	Or maybe it's not the Roswell autopsy, and we'll talk about that too in just a moment.
	Now back to Washington, D.C.
	and Bobshell.
	Bob?
	Yeah?
	Um, Bob, let's cover this criticism that I've heard a lot of people make, uh, even in the Fox piece, where they said, well, you know, every time you got close, uh, the camera would blur, and, uh, you wouldn't be able to, uh, see properly.
	Um, a camera of the kind used then Under the circumstances of being used by that cameraman, do you find that suspicious?
	Is it normal?
	How do you react to that?
	Well, I don't find it suspicious at all.
	In fact, I find it a piece of corroborating evidence.
	What Fox has not told everyone is that there are two autopsies on film.
	Two separate autopsies.
	You're right.
	I sure didn't hear that.
	Only one of which you have seen parts of.
	The first autopsy, the doctors or surgeons or pathologists or whatever they are, are not wearing the protective suits.
	They're only wearing face masks.
	Oh!
	And in the first autopsy, the film does not go out of focus in the close-ups.
	Oh my!
	Now the reason the film that we see goes out of focus in the close-ups is because the cameraman was wearing one of those suits also.
	And he couldn't focus the camera.
	Well, I've said to people that have called, Bob, look, you know, they criticize no color, they criticize the blurriness.
	I said, my feeling about this is, if it had been in perfect color and in perfect focus, people would have called and said, God, what a fake!
	You know, it's in color, they barely had color then, they had no automatic focus then, this thing ought to be out of focus.
	So, it's going to be criticized either way.
	Some people have already criticized it for being too good as it is.
	What they don't realize is that Fox is only showing you the best of it.
	Footage does vary in quality.
	Right.
	Well, that was another question.
	People will say, well, old film like that ought to have streaks.
	And I'm not the expert.
	You are in this area.
	But, you know, we've all seen it, the streaks and the little blurbs and white blobs that appear and all the rest of that.
	That comes from duplication and from repeated projection.
	This film has not been duplicated or projected.
	So it has no scratches from projection and it has no dust spots, which is what those blobs are, from being copied.
	So it was, in essence, really a pristine copy.
	Exactly.
	Old, and not always in the best of condition physically, in the sense that some of the film is physically torn, the sprocket holes are chewed up, and that sort of stuff.
	A real devil of a problem to get some of it transferred to video, because the film's physically so torn up.
	The image is okay, but the edges of the film are frequently badly messed up.
	Why do you think that Fox has not told us... I mean, the information you just gave us, for example, about a second autopsy, where we're not out of focus, that's very important information.
	Why has Fox not at least made reference to it?
	Because they don't have it.
	Uh-huh.
	That's why they haven't mentioned it.
	And this is film you have personally seen?
	The first autopsy, I have not myself seen yet.
	I have talked to quite a few people who have seen it, though.
	So I don't question that it exists.
	Alright.
	And yet you've seen an additional, what, 18 minutes in which you've seen what you call wreckage.
	The wreckage itself is only about two and a half minutes worth of film.
	About two and a half minutes.
	The autopsy itself is about 18 minutes, the one that we've seen portions of.
	The tenth scene, what Fox has is about two minutes of it.
	The whole scene is about 14 minutes long.
	And the first autopsy is about 12 minutes long.
	In addition to that, there's something on the order of about 90 minutes worth of assorted footage.
	It's all associated with this.
	It varies from good quality through to mediocre through to absolutely awful quality.
	Much of that is still in the process of being restored.
	The most intriguing roll of film of all, to me, is one roll of film that has not been restored and put onto tape yet, but will be at some point.
	The label of this roll of film says Truman.
	Oh, yes!
	The one in which Truman is supposedly present.
	The cameraman says Truman was there to inspect the crash himself.
	And should be on this roll of film.
	This roll of film has not yet been... Actually, what's wrong with it is it's stuck together.
	It hasn't been unstuck yet.
	Holy mackerel.
	Bob, here's a fax that just came in, and I'm going to deal with the question, then I'm going to let you deal with it.
	It says, please ask these questions.
	I'd like to know, as a tax-paying citizen, how he can justify to himself and others keeping the cameraman's identity and related info a secret.
	I assume here he's referring to Santilli.
	If Fox or a representative intercepted a package from Santilli addressed to Shell, this is a federal crime.
	I'd like to know why he hasn't reported it to the authorities.
	I don't know where she gets that.
	It's signed, Rebecca.
	Bob, I have the name Of the cameraman.
	And you do too, don't you?
	Of course.
	Now, my position on it, and I've had it for a few days, is this guy is in his 80s.
	And I'm just now 50.
	I can imagine that somebody in their 80s might well not want the world descending on them, which is exactly what would occur if his name gets out and it's going to get out.
	I'm just not going to be part of it.
	And so how do you feel about that?
	Well, I feel the same way, but the reason I'm not revealing his name is very simple.
	I promised not to.
	It was given to me in confidence, and for me to keep my position as an independent consultant, I have to keep confidences when they're given to me.
	If I violate one confidence, that's the end of my trust within the camera industry.
	I think that it's this man's This man's own struggle, I'm sure he's struggling now with his conscience about whether or not he should come forward.
	But if he doesn't want to, I'm not going to out him, and I'm going to be a little upset with whoever does, even given the importance of this story.
	I don't think we have any right to do that.
	I don't feel like that anyway.
	I would like you to take a few phone calls in the balance of this hour, if you wouldn't mind.
	No problem.
	Let's try it.
	Let's see what people have to say out there.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	Where are you calling from, sir?
	I'm calling from Memphis.
	Memphis, all right.
	Yes, there is quite a delay.
	It's kind of weird.
	Just turn your radio on.
	Oh, it's been on.
	All right.
	Okay, got a few questions about the film.
	I haven't been able to read it and haven't had the time yet to try digital enhancement to see what it says.
	I'm sure we will be able to read it once we do some tweaking around with it on the computer.
	Another question is about the clock.
	It's a good question.
	I think it's a good question.
	And since this is, I guess, supposedly a military site, why isn't the clock in a 24-hour clock where it goes 24 hours all the way around?
	All right.
	That's an interesting question.
	I wouldn't have the answer.
	No, I have no answer to that either, except that I have other photos from the same time period taken on military installations that show similar clocks.
	So that doesn't bother me, because obviously those clocks were used by the military.
	They may not have been the only ones used.
	There may have been 24-hour clocks used also.
	I'm beginning to get the distinct feeling that you feel as I do about this, Bob, and I can't be sure, but I lean toward thinking this film is authentic.
	How about you?
	Well, I'm not going to say that I'm giving it the thumbs up yet.
	My gut feeling is that it's the real thing.
	I have not established that to my own satisfaction yet.
	All right, I would say that's about my position.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hi.
	Hello, how are you doing tonight?
	Las Vegas, calling in.
	Yes, sir.
	KVG.
	KVG, you bet.
	I have a question.
	Turn your radio off, sir.
	Okay.
	Last Monday night, a caller misspoke and said that this alien had no nipples.
	It is untrue.
	There are nipples.
	They're very, very difficult to see, but they are there.
	It seemed like they were there, but very light color.
	That is still not a resolved question.
	Oh, really?
	Whether there are or are not nipples.
	What some people are interpreting as a nipple on the left side of the body.
	There's obviously no visible nipple on the right side of the body.
	On the left side of the body, it's been interpreted as a nipple.
	But I've looked at it.
	I've analyzed it on the computer.
	I've blown it up to giant size.
	I'm not sure what it is.
	It's an area where there's some difference in the skin, yes.
	But whether it's a nipple or whether it's a damaged area of skin or whether it's something else entirely, we just don't know yet.
	Okay.
	Thank you, sir.
	All right.
	Thank you very much for the call from Las Vegas.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell in Washington, D.C.
	Hello.
	Yeah.
	This is Ashland Morgan calling.
	The thing that really strikes me the most is something that somebody said, is that if this were a hoax, it would be an extremely expensive hoax.
	The thing that strikes me is that what kind of person would shell out that kind of money to give this kind of hoax?
	And not step forward and say, yes, it was me and I did it.
	It's a hoax.
	I'm a genius.
	Gee, I could even do better than that.
	What kind of person would shell out that kind of money in 1947 to 9, when the film was apparently exposed, and then hold on to it for all these years, thinking, gee, someday there's going to be a big alien controversy and I can make a lot of money?
	Yeah.
	That doesn't make any sense.
	I think the only people that could have done that back then would have been The government.
	I had a very heated debate with a friend the other day about this, and he brought up the point that, you know, there might be a reason for somebody trying to make the general populace believe that there's, you know, there's an extraterrestrial culture.
	and he said that the government might have a reason for wanting the American people to
	believe that there is an alien presence, either to scare them and to get some sort of control
	over them, or perhaps they already have contact, and they're starting to release these things
	to test the waters to see how the American people would react to such an alien race if
	there was.
	Just random thoughts out there.
	There is one suggestion that sort of makes sense about why the government would have
	faked a film like this.
	The suggestion was given to me by a former intelligence person who said that maybe this film was faked in 1947 to intentionally leak it to the Russians to scare the heck out of them to make them think we had access to this alien technology.
	That's an interesting scenario.
	And one cannot underestimate the government coming up with just about anything.
	You know, you told me at the beginning of the show you were CIA for a short time and that that is not relevant to this at all.
	But maybe you can comment on that aspect of it.
	In other words, having been on the inside Is that something that you would consider likely or not?
	I don't consider it likely.
	I consider it possible.
	I'd say it's fairly remote because I think there would be easier ways to scare the Russians in a more productive way.
	So I don't really know how likely that scenario is.
	I think it's pretty low on the likelihood scale at this point.
	Well, I would have to agree because we were at, obviously, the beginning of the nuclear age, and if you wanted to scare the Russians, We had some pretty real things to scare them with.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh, we didn't, seems to me, we wouldn't need alien autopsies.
	On the first time caller line, uh, welcome to the program.
	You're on the air with Bob.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you, ma'am?
	I'm in Houston.
	Houston, Texas.
	All right.
	Right.
	CNN did do a little, uh, thing on the Roswell thing yesterday.
	I saw it, but there was absolutely no reference to the film.
	Well, they showed some clips from the film.
	Oh, it did?
	Yes, sir, they sure did.
	They were a little bit larger looking and it showed the body with the eyes and all of that.
	And the main thrust of the whole broadcast was the fact that Roswell has become more or less a Yes.
	A money-making deal.
	Yes, well I certainly saw that, but I did not see... There were about three very brief scenes of the film itself.
	Were they stills or moving pictures?
	No, they seemed to be stills.
	I was not sitting down looking.
	I was just in the room and I glanced up and I saw it.
	but it looked like there was a splintered two or three still pictures up there.
	It could have been moving pictures.
	Maybe the door then is beginning to crack open.
	Bob, do you think that this film, ultimately, when all of it is out,
	will be strong enough to crack the door open and begin to make the American people, the people of the
	world, realize there may be something to all this?
	Honestly, I doubt it.
	Because the confirmed skeptic is not going to be convinced if one of these creatures walks up and offers a six-fingered
	handshake.
	Yeah.
	Well, I frequently said, Bob, that if somebody suddenly came forward with a film of some guy on the grassy knoll with a rifle and showing the trigger being squeezed and then a slow-mo of the bullet leaving the gun and hitting President Kennedy from the grassy knoll, people wouldn't believe it.
	I mean there are some things that have received... there's so much information out there that if somebody stood on a podium, short of the president, and said it is real, it's just one more piece of information.
	Right.
	My big hope about this film is that it will bring out a lot more eyewitnesses before they all die off, because there's still a lot of people out there who have not come forward.
	What would you think the government's Well, for example, so far, utter silence from our government.
	Now, there's a lot of ways of looking at this.
	Reza Antilli bought the film.
	But if this is really an authentic film, that means it's actually U.S.
	government property.
	And I don't see how you can copyright U.S.
	government property.
	You can't.
	But the problem is, for the government to come out and tell you you can't copyright it, they have to admit it's legit.
	It's theirs, yes.
	Catch-22.
	Yes, yes, indeed.
	If this is a legitimate film, having been on the inside once, Bob, what do you think the government's present position on it is?
	I mean, do you think they'll just keep their mouths shut, not say a word, let people chuckle and chortle, and let everybody wonder?
	Or will they eventually crack open?
	I would have once said, this kind of a secret never could have been kept.
	But I mean, recently we've got Hazel O'Leary coming forward saying we fed, you know, plutonium or whatever to kids.
	And that was kept secret all those years very well.
	We never knew about it.
	Would have been the scandal of the century.
	But Hazel O'Leary walked out on to a podium and said, yes, we did this.
	It was horrible, but we did it.
	They kept that secret.
	They kept quite a few things secret.
	Their current approach seems to be just to sort of let this thing work itself out in the public eye.
	I think they're taking a wait-and-see attitude.
	Before I got involved in this, I went to a very good friend of mine who's an ex-CIA person because I wanted to know if he thought I'd be incurring any real personal danger by getting involved in this.
	His comment was, no, they decided to let it out because if they hadn't wanted to let it out, Ray Santilli and the cameraman would both have disappeared and be dead weeks ago.
	Then this calls for a conjecture, of course, but why would you think they would make the decision to let it out?
	I'm not sure they made the decision to let it out, but I think that the fact that it's come out, they may have decided just to let this play itself out and see what happens, rather than to try to intervene and confiscate the film, which is far too late to try to do that.
	Oh, much too late.
	Or to come out with another cover story, and their cover stories have so far not gotten them very far.
	Nobody's believed in any of it.
	Well, to me, it's a little like the Furman tapes.
	They first said it's a saucer, Major Jesse Marcel.
	Then, what, 20 minutes, 40 minutes later, they said, oh no, it's a weather balloon.
	And that story was the one they stuck to for all those years.
	And here recently, they came out and said, wrong.
	It wasn't a weather balloon.
	We lied.
	We admit it.
	It was a weather balloon.
	It was a special balloon train or something to detect Russian nuclear testing or whatever.
	Sort of a, uh, it wasn't a balloon, it was a different kind of balloon story.
	And as of last week, they were thinking about releasing a new story, claiming it was a crashed B-26 carrying an A-bomb.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah.
	Now, there's another new one that I haven't heard of.
	Might we inquire where you found out about that?
	Well, actually, that was a cover story given to the perimeter guards at the time of the crash.
	You're kidding!
	No, that's what they were told they were guarding.
	The ones who weren't in close enough to actually see the saucer.
	Lies, lies, lies.
	Uh, Bob, hold on.
	Relax.
	Have a cup of coffee.
	We'll be back to you, uh, in just, uh, very few minutes.
	Alright?
	Uh, my guest is Bob Schell, a photo analyst.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	This is a remastered version of the original song. It's a bit longer and less catchy.
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired September 4th, 1995.
	Here again I am, live in the night time.
	Good morning everybody.
	I have, as a guest, he's been on one hour, Now we'll be on another.
	Bob Schell.
	He is the man referred to by Linda Moulton Howe on Sunday.
	He is a photoanalyst.
	He has done consulting work for the FBI and other government agencies.
	Was at one time in the CIA.
	Has analyzed an actual piece of the visual footage of the purported crash at Roswell.
	Or is it Roswell?
	We have yet to get to that.
	We're going to lay rather heavily on the phone lines this hour.
	So, in a moment, back to Bob Schell, who's in Washington, D.C.
	Sound of a jet taking off.
	All right.
	Because we have so many joining us at this hour, here once again from Washington, D.C., is a photo analyst whose name is Bob Schell.
	Bob, if you were to give us sort of a brief rundown, a resume, of what you have done, who you have worked for, why you have expertise in this area, I would appreciate it.
	Well, I've been involved heavily in photography for more than 30 years, and I make my living these days writing about photography and doing freelance photographic consulting for a large number of different clients including some of the
	camera companies.
	My original training is in zoology and photography which gives me a double edged sword with which
	to deal with this film.
	The film itself has passed what I call the preliminary stage of proving itself to be
	a valid document produced in 1947 or within two or three years of 1947.
	All right, let me challenge that with this fax, and maybe that'll give you an opening to launching into that.
	It says, Art, your analyst has a couple of misconceptions.
	One, he says, you cannot authenticate the age of a film by the age of the film stock, because unexposed film can last many decades if it's kept in cold storage.
	It would be a matter of locating stored film, which seems difficult, but I bet a thorough search would turn some up.
	I've read that film left in the Arctic by one of the early expeditions was usable many years later.
	Then, too, your expert is forgetting that Kodak never marketed a 16 millimeter nitrate film.
	35 millimeter nitrate film was common until the late 40s, early 50s, but Kodak never sold Nitrate 16 millimeter, because the early acetates were good enough for that purpose.
	Jim, in Portland.
	Well, now, the second part of that I'll deal with first.
	Alright.
	As far as nitrate, the information that Kodak did make nitrate 16 millimeter film came directly from Kodak.
	And it has come from several different sources at Kodak.
	I have no personal knowledge, I wasn't around in the 20's, but I would assume Kodak would know What they did, it didn't do.
	Good point.
	And they have on a number of occasions said that the film that they made in 27, 16mm and 35, would have been on nitrate base.
	Alright.
	So I'm relying on Kodak for that piece of information.
	If Kodak's wrong, then they're wrong.
	But that's really not terribly relevant to what we're talking about.
	Alright, now the possibility that a bunch of this was stored in the Arctic or the equivalent somewhere and held for all those years.
	Well, actually, somebody else had asked me a while back if it had been stored in an abandoned salt mine in cryogenic condition.
	And under those circumstances, maybe it would still be pretty good film today.
	The person who made this comment is right.
	Old film can be used.
	But the faster the speed of the film, the less Likely that is to work, because film is all gradually fogged and sits around by cosmic radiation.
	And the higher speed films are much more sensitive to cosmic radiation than the slower films.
	That radiation we're all bombarded with all the time?
	That's why the question about the salt mine.
	Oh, I see.
	That's the only place where you can store something and limit the exposure to cosmic radiation.
	But even at that, When you're dealing with a very sensitive film, which this was for its time, one of the fastest films made at the time, you're dealing with a situation where after just a few years, the film has built up enough cosmic radiation exposure to show measurable fogging, which this film does not show.
	Alright, and again, your work for this audience has, at least on a preliminary basis, We've pinned down the year, not to 27 or 67, but to 1947 or 1949, somewhere in that range.
	We've pinned down the year of manufacture of the film, rather precisely to 47.
	We cannot prove that the film was exposed and processed in 47, but we can establish within certain parameters that the film was Exposed and processed while it was still quite fresh.
	Well, if this news, or would have had to have been, you said, within a few years.
	Right.
	So, you know, that adds so much to the credibility of this whole thing.
	Then why in God's name hasn't Fox come to you to extend the story and the credibility of what they've got?
	Fox and I have had sort of a, I would say, rocky relationship on this From the beginning, I was quite surprised when I saw the TV special the first time, because I had been promised repeatedly that I would have a credit in the end credits of the film.
	And when I saw the program, it wasn't there.
	Fox has been pushing me to do things faster than I'm comfortable to do them.
	I see.
	They want 100% guarantee that this film is what it's claimed to be.
	And you weren't prepared to do that at that point?
	I couldn't do it at that point.
	Or may not even be able to do it right now.
	No, the time frame just wasn't realistic.
	I mean, if you do things correctly, it takes time.
	So I couldn't give them what they wanted, which is why I wasn't on the program.
	I may be on the follow-up program if by the time they do the follow-up I'm able to give them what they're after.
	This is completely off course for a second, but with the story they told about the crash, if we, for the sake of the argument here, assume this is a valid film and a valid story, I was so saddened at the way humans treated what seemed to be alien creatures, you know, rifle button ahead, that kind of thing, to get the box away.
	I guess I'm not surprised by it, but I was saddened by it.
	Did you have any reaction?
	Well, the first time I read the cameraman's transcribed statement, it made me physically sick.
	Because here are badly injured creatures crying out in pain, and they're being hit with rifle butts, and they're having what to them is obviously something very crucial, that they're clutching to themselves tightly, torn away from them by force.
	And we don't know with these boxes where they were clutching.
	Maybe these were life support systems of some sort.
	All we know is the short time after the one was hit with the rifle butt and it's metal box taken from it, that one died.
	Sad.
	That's a word I come up with is sad.
	And here we go again.
	I said in the earlier hour that I have the name of the cameraman.
	And here's the kind of response I get.
	Art, if you have the cameraman's name, You are now part of the cover-up, at least to maintain some credibility.
	You or someone else should verify that this name was in the armed services.
	My God, you know yourself how important it is.
	We all know the truth.
	Well, he was in the armed services.
	There's no question about that.
	The question is whether or not we pursue this guy and break his privacy, and it would be broken severely.
	He's in his 80s.
	I'm going to say it again.
	I am not going to out this guy.
	I'm not going to do it.
	He's got a right to his privacy, and I'm not going to be the one to break it.
	And Bob, you are respecting... You also have his name, and you're respecting that confidence as well, right?
	All I can say is, welcome to the conspiracy.
	You're part of it now.
	Yeah, thank you.
	No, I am respecting his privacy, because I've been asked to.
	And his story, and his name, and all the rest of this will be brought out, ultimately, in time.
	By the people who are involved in this project, if we're allowed to do things properly.
	I plan to interview the cameraman quite extensively face-to-face in a matter of about two weeks.
	And at that time, a lot of these questions people have been asking me to ask the cameraman will be asked.
	What do you want to know?
	If you had just two or three questions, main important ones you could pose to him, what would they be?
	Oh.
	That's a tough one because the list of questions runs into about five pages.
	I bet it does.
	Crucial questions about the camera equipment and the film itself will be first on my list.
	I'm sure people who are concerned more about the creature than about the film would want to know things like what color was the skin, what color was the blood, things you can't tell from black and white film.
	Of course.
	Oh, very good, very good point.
	It was obviously a darker colored blood.
	Uh, but that's all you could discern on a black and white film.
	The so-called eyewitnesses to the Roswell autopsies, and I'm talking here about the traditional Roswell story, claim that the creatures that they saw had clear, colorless fluid in their bodies, and no blood per se.
	You know what I'm hearing though, Bob, and maybe you know enough about the cameramen to know this, I've heard that he's made a statement that this was a crash on the plains of St.
	Augustine near Socorro somewhere, not Roswell.
	Have you heard that?
	Well, I can tell you with some authority that this film and this crash that the cameraman is talking about has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Roswell incident.
	That's what I thought.
	The traditional Roswell incident.
	This happened a month earlier and it happened about Ten miles southwest of Socorro, not on the plains of San Augustine, but on the other side of the mountain from those plains.
	Ten miles south of Socorro?
	About ten miles southwest of Socorro, in a small dry lake bed.
	And the dry lake bed has been visited recently, about a month ago, by a colleague of mine who verified that in fact there is a small dry lake bed there, even though it shows up on no maps.
	Not even on USGS maps.
	And that there's about a 50-foot diameter area where the crash was supposed to be, which has obviously been excavated at some time in the past and filled in with soil from somewhere else.
	Oh.
	Gee, you're telling us a lot of new stuff tonight.
	And again, for the later audience, there were a couple of other things that you suggested earlier that you knew that are not out publicly yet.
	You've seen 20 minutes, for example, of the film.
	That nobody else has seen, including pieces of debris.
	Is that a better word?
	Debris, wreckage, whatever.
	When the thing came down, first of all, the thing came down possibly not by accident.
	Possibly because we shot it down.
	Oh, stop there.
	The very large wound on the leg, which was the only very serious wound that I've discerned, and they talked about in Fox, they said That that might have been some sort of a missile or a projectile or something that would produce that kind of wound.
	So that would be consistent then with perhaps having shot it down?
	Well, the wound appears to be from the creature standing too close to an explosion of some sort.
	The wound goes all the way through the leg.
	It's a penetrating wound.
	It's an entry wound about three inches long and about two and a half inches tall on the outer side of the leg.
	There's this enormous chunk of flesh torn out from the inner side of the leg, which suggests an exit wound.
	Possibly a shrapnel piece from an explosion caused this wound.
	So we may have shot the damn thing down.
	Well, when the cameraman was first sent to the site, he was told he was going to photograph a Russian spy plane that had been shot down.
	And there's a fair amount of There's no reason to believe that that's what they thought it was until they got to the crash site.
	They thought they had downed a Russian spy plane flying over our nuclear facilities.
	And they got there, and lo and behold, it wasn't a Russian spy plane at all.
	It was something else quite different.
	Well, I've always thought, with regard to Major Marcel, an Army Air Corps experienced career guy, to not be able to tell the difference between a flying saucer, or a disk as he called And a weather balloon would be absolutely impossible.
	That's ridiculous from the start.
	He would have known a weather balloon.
	Sure.
	The debris that we have the film of, of this particular crash, did not come from the craft itself.
	The craft itself was completely intact.
	But there was a smaller dish on the bottom of the craft, possibly a communications dish, several feet in diameter, that was torn off in the crash.
	And all the debris that's shown on the film is pieces of this disk or dish that was torn off at the bottom of the craft during the crash.
	And nobody's seen this.
	Is Fox negotiating to get this, or do you think Fox at this point has blown the story up so big that somebody else will end up getting it?
	Well, Fox has this footage of the debris, and they chose not to use it.
	Because it doesn't tie into the rest of their story.
	They're trying to make this part of the Roswell Incident.
	I see.
	They're trying to make it all one single event.
	And the debris doesn't look right to do that.
	It just doesn't fit.
	We also have film of the boxes the creatures were holding when they were found.
	Really?
	Oh yes.
	My God!
	It's part of the same sequence.
	Why isn't this, well I guess it's public now, But why has this not been made public?
	It has been made public overseas.
	Some of the overseas documentaries actually use this footage.
	It's far too important for people not to know that all of this exists, and then you've told me there is even another canister of film, which is yet to be processed, which purports to show Truman.
	Is that correct?
	That's right.
	Well, that's what it says on the label of the box.
	Truman.
	In the extended footage, the little extra bonus they gave us last night, Don from Los Angeles wants to know, what about, they called it a crystal that they pulled out of the torso of this creature.
	Do you know anything about that?
	Have you looked carefully at that?
	Yes, I have looked carefully at that, because it's a very peculiar thing.
	I've single-framed that sequence.
	Probably dozens of times studying it because I have been present during autopsies and I have dissected pieces of cadavers and other creatures myself and I have no, and this is not a pun, I have no earthly idea what that thing is.
	I've never seen anything like it inside of a human body or any animal I've ever seen dissected.
	I'm told that that particular part is much clearer in the first autopsy, the autopsy we have not seen.
	There's more film of it also.
	And again, the first autopsy for this audience is clear, isn't it?
	In other words, you don't have... There's no out-of-focus sections because the cameraman wasn't wearing protective gear.
	And he was able to refocus for the close-ups of the first autopsy.
	The first autopsy, the doctors or pathologists or whatever they are, are not wearing the protective suits either.
	The blood.
	The blood, you said, obviously it's not color film, but with some care, you can look at a grayscale, can you not, and determine Something by the road of color of the blood?
	You know, I'm not a photo expert.
	You are.
	Well, there's a team of French researchers right at the moment who are attempting to use a very sophisticated computer program to colorize the film.
	The way this computer program works is you take things in the scene that you know the colors of and you plug that information into the computer and it extrapolates the colors of the other things from that.
	Oh, that's fascinating.
	It's not 100% accurate, but it It works fairly well.
	All right.
	Bob Schell, hold on.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Relax for a moment.
	Bob Schell, a photo analyst from Washington, D.C.
	He's done work for the FBI.
	He'll be back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	The Coast to Coast AM concert was held on September 4th, 1995 at the San Francisco International Music Center.
	The concert was held at the San Francisco International Music Center.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	In the middle of what we're usually in the middle of, whatever is going on, a repeat of the Fox television special.
	But the fact is, you don't know the half of it.
	Bob Schell knows at least half of it, maybe more.
	We're trying to dig and find out.
	There have been a lot of revelations this morning.
	a lot to digest and we'll get back to him in just a moment back now to bob shulman washington dc
	Bob, I know the Associated Press has interviewed you.
	I have no idea.
	It may turn up on some kind of a program, it may not.
	So Bob, the AP apparently interviewed you.
	What do you think they're going to do with that?
	Anything?
	I have no idea.
	It may turn up on some kind of a program.
	It may not.
	I've done quite a number of interviews since this whole thing blew open, and most of the
	better ones are still in the can somewhere.
	Hmm.
	Well, this one's not in the can, except our can, and it's live on the air.
	Now, here's a question from Paul in San Jose.
	Did you see, even so much as one second, what appeared to be any footage of a live creature?
	That is an unanswered question at this point, because we don't know if the creature in the tent footage is live or not.
	It may be.
	Because the lighting is iffy, It's hard to tell exactly what the technicians are doing.
	And some people who have looked at the footage have said that what they're doing is they're applying a bandage to a wound in the creature's side.
	Well, you don't put bandages on dead people.
	Right.
	So if that interpretation is correct, then the creature is alive, but probably comatose or unconscious for some other reason.
	It's not moving.
	Whether it's breathing or not would require careful frame-by-frame analysis of the film.
	Which I presume will be done?
	Oh yes, of course it will be done, yes.
	What is your relationship now with Mr. Santilli?
	You said your relationship with Fox is a little iffy at best.
	What about Mr. Santilli regarding any further analysis of the rest of what he's got?
	I have had complete and full cooperation from Jason Tilly and the other people at his company Merlin.
	I've had no problems with them whatsoever.
	They've been very forthcoming with any information I ask for.
	Not able to always supply it as quickly as I would like because they've been so busy
	themselves because of dealing with people from all over the world calling every two
	seconds asking for stuff.
	But they have gone out of their way to try to be as cooperative as possible.
	Alright here are a couple of good questions.
	you've already answered but we need to answer it again Why was there no still photographer present at the autopsy?
	There was a still photographer present who was shooting while this motion picture cameraman was between roles.
	Because he was wearing this protective suit, it took him much longer to change the film in the camera than it normally would have.
	Right.
	And during that gap, the still cameraman was moving in and taking I think his greatest fear is of the IRS.
	three pictures some of which
	we assume we don't know it's for a fact that we have been some of these would
	have been color all right uh...
	here's another one uh... is to your knowledge the photographer afraid of the
	government is that one of the reasons he's not coming forward
	i think his greatest fear is of the iraq uh... because
	he insisted that the payment for the film be made to him in cash i see
	he said that he was passing most of the money to his daughter
	I think he doesn't want himself or his daughter to be hassled by the IRS.
	All right, good answer.
	Art, for those who complain about the quality of the film, let us not forget the cameraman said that the reason he held onto the film in the first place was because he knew that he had overexposed it and it was going to need to be processed in a particular way.
	Um, does that sound right to you, Bob?
	Well, he kept back these 22 rolls of film because they had problems of one sort or another and required hand processing.
	They were not overexposed.
	I don't know where that came from.
	Um, some of the, some of the scenes though, uh, do seem, uh, in video terms, I'm, you know, not too much into photography, but I certainly am into video.
	And they seem whited out to me.
	Well, the thing is that some of these rolls of film, the photographer intentionally exposed the film at a higher than normal rating.
	Uh huh.
	And processed it specially to push the film speed.
	I've got you.
	I've got you.
	And because he was hand processing rather than machine processing, this is done in sort of an oval shaped large tank that winds the film from one spool to another.
	Uh huh.
	By hand.
	The density variation within the roll is quite a bit.
	It'll go from very light to very dark within the same roll of film because of this fairly primitive way in which it was processed.
	Interesting.
	He goes on, and I think you agree with this, and the reason the government is not saying anything about it is because they can't.
	The entire UFO conspiracy has now reached such a boiling point that no lid can contain the contents of the pot.
	It's boiling over.
	And the less they say, the better off they'll be when they finally have to admit what's going on.
	Interesting.
	Would you agree with that?
	It makes sense, although I think that there is probably factional fighting within the government between factions that want everything to be released and put out on the table in front of us, and people who still want to keep it secret.
	Here's somebody asking, what is the difference between a dissection and an autopsy?
	I'm not sure I know myself.
	The dictionary definition of an autopsy is A dissection performed to determine the cause of death.
	And we're not dissecting these guys to figure out why they died.
	That's pretty obvious what they died from.
	The dissection is to get the internal organs out and into preservative situation fairly rapidly so that more detailed study can be done later.
	And according to the cameraman, these creatures, once they're dead, decompose much more rapidly than humans would.
	So that's one of the reasons that the sections are done fairly more quickly than a traditional autopsy would be done.
	They seem to be pulling out a lot of what appear to be non-connective tissue.
	Mush, gush, I don't know what you'd call it.
	It was pretty icky.
	Any comments on that?
	Well, what they're pulling out, in most cases, is not something that you can relate directly to any organ that would be inside of a human body.
	For example, in the Lower abdominal cavity, there are no long ropes of intestine.
	There's no large and small intestine.
	There's a large single organ which looks sort of like a large spongy mass that's removed.
	Right, correct.
	And below that there's two smaller things which may or may not be kidneys.
	They're taken out too quickly to really tell exactly if that's what they are.
	There's no sign that I can see from the angles I've seen looking into the cavity of any reproductive organs at all.
	Whether there are or not lungs, it's hard to determine in the chest cavity.
	There is what looks like a heart, and then there's a very large organ under that heart, which doesn't correspond to anything that we recognize.
	All right, then this.
	If the doctors in the first autopsy wore no protective suits, as in the second, were their faces ever visible, sufficiently visible, to be able to try to ID them?
	There's a good possibility that can be done.
	You know, people like the FBI have these computer programs that can do a make on a partial face.
	And if we know who we think they are, and can find an old picture of them with sufficient quality, we may be able to do this.
	We have the name of one of the doctors.
	Oh, you do?
	Right.
	In the first autopsy, there is a notepad or something that's held up to the camera that has It was written on an autopsy performed by Dr. Detlev Brock.
	Say the name again, please.
	Detlev Brock.
	B-R-O-N-K.
	Is he alive?
	No, he's dead.
	But he did exist.
	He did exist.
	We have confirmed that.
	Yeah.
	And he was a military pathologist who would have been at a high enough level of security clearance to be involved in something like this.
	My God, Bob, you've got so many details that Fox has not aired So many cooperating, important pieces of evidence that Fox has not aired.
	Why aren't they doing this?
	Well, in some cases, because they don't even know about it themselves, because they haven't really done a really in-depth research effort on the project.
	Alright, try this question.
	Could a hoaxter of today manufacture a film that would simulate the chemical makeup of the 47 film and fool somebody?
	If you own the film factory, you might, and I put that might in very large letters, you might be able to do that.
	But I place the odds of that very low.
	And we will have confirming corroborative testing by Kodak fairly soon that will do a chemical analysis of the film and compare it to their records of what they know the film of that date should have had in it.
	All right.
	These are proprietary records that no one else would have access to.
	I see.
	All right.
	Going back to the phones.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hi.
	Yes.
	Hi.
	How are you doing?
	All right.
	You know, I think it's that you can protect the identity of this photographer by setting up some kind of board of control that would look into this, an independent board, but would still protect his identity.
	I think this is important.
	But I had a couple of questions.
	Number one, you mentioned A B-26 cover story?
	Did you mean a B-29?
	That was the only atomic bomber at the time.
	I'm not an expert on aircraft.
	The person who told me the story said a B-26, but he may have misspoken.
	Yeah, that was a very small medium bomber.
	Yeah, he may have misspoken.
	You mentioned a chemical test on the film.
	What type of tests, spectroscopic tests or otherwise, that identify this as being consistent with the Super XX 1947?
	That's a good question.
	It's a destruct spectroscopic analysis.
	A small piece of the film is heated up and destroyed and then the byproducts are analyzed spectroscopically.
	Exactly.
	And Kodak does know what film of different vintages should look like when that's done to it.
	Ah, that's interesting.
	And also, could this film have been kept in an inert or cold atmosphere and then exposed many years later?
	Right, that was asked already.
	A cold atmosphere, yes, but you can't protect it from cosmic rays.
	It would still be fog.
	Thank you very much.
	All right, thank you.
	This plot is really, really, really thickening, and it seems to me, Bob, that at some point it's going to reach an absolute critical mass.
	Whether or not the networks have access to the film, which they don't, Fox has the rights.
	It seems like it's going to reach some sort of critical mass.
	Maybe I'm going to help that process.
	Maybe you are, too.
	I hope so.
	It has already done so outside of the U.S.
	For some reason, we've had very little coverage of this here in the U.S., whereas it's been covered quite extensively in England and major newspapers in Germany and France.
	I'm going to tell you one reason why I know why, because I do programs and have for years on these kinds of subjects, Bob.
	We are Judeo-Christian.
	The whole idea, the whole concept of aliens is challenging to many people's religious faith in this country.
	And that's one answer.
	I don't know what's the totality of the answer, but it's at least one answer.
	And I don't really understand that, because I've seen nothing in the Bible As I read it, it says that God created intelligent human creatures only once.
	Only once on this planet, but it says nothing about other planets.
	That's exactly right, and I react the same way.
	Nevertheless, some people are challenged to the point of real anger.
	I know this, Bob, because I've had the calls.
	I've talked to some of them.
	Indeed.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Kirby in Houston.
	Yes, sir.
	It appears to me as though this body that is in the film on Fox could possibly be one of these creatures that we hear about that's artificially matured like a human embryo.
	Does that seem reasonable to Bob?
	Well, that's really outside of my range of expertise, but it doesn't seem unreasonable.
	I've speculated that what we're seeing is a biological robot rather than a biological entity per se, something that's engineered because it has a simplified internal structure, seems to have no digestive organs.
	And the crystal.
	And the crystal, right.
	So you have to wonder, is this thing something that evolved somewhere or is this thing something that was built?
	Well, the Greys, we know, do have biologically engineered beings that they use in their tasks.
	I've experienced some mental telepathy from one of the Greys, and they indicated something along these lines.
	All right, well, thank you.
	I don't know about that, but I think you may be onto something here, Bob.
	It was, or it appeared to be, somewhat simplistic, and could have been sort of a half biological, half That's certainly a possibility.
	The one thing that bothers a lot of people, and especially bothers pathologists who look at the film, is the brain of this creature.
	Because it does not look like the brain of a highly advanced, highly intelligent creature.
	It's smooth.
	It doesn't have the furrows.
	That we associate with the increased surface area of the brain to increase intelligence.
	Uh-huh.
	Um... It was pretty large, though.
	It was a pretty large mass and, uh... It's large, but not overly large by human standards.
	I recall the pathologist, uh, saying that it was, uh, he thought it was distinctly non-human.
	Oh, it's definitely non-human.
	It's not as large as you would think it would be based on the size of the head.
	But if you watch the whole autopsy, you'll notice that when they saw through the skull, they have a heck of a time cutting through that skull.
	Skull is obviously a lot thicker and tougher than a human skull.
	There's so many questions.
	So many questions.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hi.
	Hey, good evening, gentlemen.
	Yes, hello.
	This is a professor, and I'm not angered.
	You know, you just made an earlier reference to some people that may be angry.
	Well, if you're not, then you're not one of those.
	I know.
	I have a deep Christian faith, but you know me, and you've gone back and forth on this thing since the very first night I called you, Art Bell.
	Yes, sir.
	Do you have a question for our guest?
	Well, I've just got an insight that I've held on to for about a week, and I haven't heard it.
	And the guest probably has, you know, since he's going to talk to the cameraman, he'll be able to ask this question more clearly.
	All right.
	And I'm sure it's a concern that Some people have come up with.
	They just haven't voiced it yet.
	I mean, I know deep down in our subconscious we thought this.
	These beings are awfully intelligent.
	Do you agree, Art?
	No, I have no way of knowing what their level of intelligence would be at all.
	Would you, Bob?
	No.
	They came in a highly sophisticated craft, but we don't know if they built the craft or not.
	I see.
	So maybe they're not that intelligent.
	Anyway, if they had any reasonable How do we say?
	Reconnaissance of the Earth?
	Then they could have, you know, we just had World War II and, you know, that was a very, very brutal war.
	Certainly if they had any reconnaissance of us, they would have known we were brutal individuals.
	Having known that, then it looks like there would have been some sort of contingency for a crash scenario on their part.
	You know, what to do in this situation should we crash?
	Should we be shot down?
	It seems to me that merely their Laying up against their ship, crying, clutching something, that would seem to me to be more of a, uh, not, uh, a primitive, you know, it seems very primitive to me.
	Alright, well... Shocked by the... Alright, look, look, caller, uh, Bob, here are two things, and maybe you'd want to comment on them.
	Uh, one, that was a damn sensitive area at that time.
	It's where we were doing our nuclear testing.
	Right.
	So, in all probability, anything overflying the area would have been running the risk of being shot down.
	Two, If they were doing reconnaissance, the thing they would be most interested in would be our development of nuclear technology.
	Wouldn't that seem logical?
	It does seem logical.
	That was the most sensitive installation in the entire United States at the time.
	So anything flying into that airspace would have been challenged on the radio for identification.
	Several times, and if no identification was forthcoming, if it kept coming into the sensitive area, it would have been shot down.
	That would have been our normal reaction.
	And again, the wound was consistent with some kind of very close-in blast.
	The leg wound that we saw.
	And it's quite possible that if we're dealing with creatures who are totally alien to us, they may not have even conceived of the idea that we would be that hostile.
	And been totally unprepared for it.
	Yeah, that's the sad part.
	That's the sad part.
	Just sort of a social question.
	You can ponder it if you want.
	We're at about the end of this hour.
	If a craft were to land today, similar creatures, similar, uh, clutching the boxes and all the rest of it, do you think we would treat them with greater deference today than we did then?
	Good question.
	I have this terrible feeling the answer to it is probably not.
	I sort of feel that way, too.
	And, uh, again... Basically, if it was the military who got there first.
	That's right.
	And again, would we hesitate to shoot down a craft if we could?
	I don't think so.
	I live out here near Area 51.
	You know what that is, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	Actually, I'm right next to it.
	And if something were to overfly it and be challenged, I can assure you it would be shot out of the air if we could.
	So, you know, a lot of years have passed, but I'm not sure that much has changed.
	Stay right where you are.
	We'll be right back with you.
	Bob Schell, a photo analyst who's done consulting work for the FBI and a lot of other government organizations, and has closely examined the new footage.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	This is a teaser for the original Coast to Coast AM game.
	The original Coast to Coast game was released in 1995.
	the the
	you're listening to work well somewhere in time like featuring a replay of coast to coast a m from september
	fourth nineteen ninety five
	If you're just joining us, I'm sorry.
	You've missed two very, very important hours.
	There's more to go.
	My guest is Bob Schell.
	He's in Washington, D.C.
	right now.
	He's done consulting work for the FBI, many other government agencies, was once in the CIA, has examined the film, the purported A crash film, we think from a crash near Socorro, New Mexico.
	Not Roswell.
	And, uh, there's just been all kinds of breaking news from Bob about this.
	One, that he's examined actual, uh, imagery, imagery film, and that he has determined that this film was indeed exposed, uh, in or near 1947.
	That's a big piece of news.
	Not 27, or 67, but 47.
	And a lot more about the first alien autopsy.
	One that is clear, not blurry.
	One that had doctors in face masks, not full spacesuits.
	All kinds of information.
	uh... this has been packed full of it and there's about to be more and we'll
	get back to bob shell in washington dc back out of our show in washington dc
	Bob, first of all, thank you for hanging in there.
	This is such important stuff.
	I know it's after four o'clock.
	Four o'clock in the morning back there, I guess.
	I didn't need any sleep anyway.
	Bob, in the Fox presentation, both the first and now the second, any time they took a full body picture of the purported alien, they put in this little digital scratch out where the genitalia would have been.
	You've obviously studied the film that does not have that.
	Oh, yes.
	Why, first of all, is it necessary that Fox did that?
	If they had shown it, what would we have seen?
	Would it have been female genitalia or what?
	I have no earthly idea why Fox felt compelled to do that.
	None of the other television broadcasters anywhere else in the world scrambled the genitals.
	What have you, if you've analyzed any portion that showed that, have you been able to discern anything there?
	Or is it just a dark... No, there's nothing there that I think would have offended anyone.
	I can't imagine.
	What's there is what looks like a prepubescent human female genital.
	Basically just a slit.
	That's it, huh?
	Yeah.
	Alright, then this.
	Dear Art, it has been suggested that if there are genitalia, they are female.
	It's been suggested that one of the masses taken from her abdomen may have been a amniotic sac.
	The body looked pregnant to me.
	I'm confused that no one else has suggested pregnancy.
	The creature appears female only superficially.
	I don't believe that it has any sex at all.
	As far as the idea of pregnancy, None of the pathologists who have looked at the footage have thought that they saw any signs of anything resembling pregnancy.
	The puffed up abdomen is apparently just post-mortem bloating.
	Okay, you saw the, or you've talked to people who have seen the first autopsy, the one nobody else has seen.
	Were they bloated in a similar way, because you said... No.
	The answer is no?
	No.
	Oh my.
	That one has a flat abdomen.
	And you were saying that there was actually, or appeared to be, a bandage being put on one of them, indicating obviously, as I said, you don't put a bandage on a cadaver.
	That's the interpretation some people have made of the film.
	It's not my personal interpretation.
	I really don't know what they're doing.
	They're doing something to the side of the creature.
	All right, the phone lines are burning up, so let's try it again.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Can I cut my radio down?
	Yes, cut it down.
	Turn it off, actually, please.
	And then tell us from where you are calling.
	Hello?
	Where are you calling from?
	WAI, San Antonio.
	San Antonio, all right.
	There's something that fascinated me about what you're talking about.
	What I was wondering is the possibility that Okay, that is a very good question.
	In fact, it coincides with the facts I've got here, Bob.
	Hangar 18.
	You or your guests know all I've heard about Hangar 18.
	and for tomorrow to be but i love
	okay okay that is a very good question in fact it coincides with the facts i've
	got here bob uh... hanger eighteen
	uh... do uh... you or your guest no all i've heard about hanger eighteen i was
	given to understand the ship or a ship is at hanger eighteen or was and is
	intact don in wilmington north carolina
	Well, not according to the cameraman.
	According to the cameraman, the entire craft was taken to Wright-Patterson, and studied and stored there, and as far as he knows, it's still there.
	He has not commented about Hangar 18, and possibly has no personal knowledge about this part of the thing, this whole mythology that's been All right, I have.
	I always thought it was mythology, but I've got a tape of Mike Murphy at KCMO in Kansas City who interviewed Barry Goldwater.
	And in Barry Goldwater's voice, and I've played it several times in the last week, Barry Goldwater says he asked Kurt LeMay about Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, General LeMay.
	General LeMay replied to him In four-letter words that nobody can repeat, he said, don't you dare ever ask me about this again, ever.
	To me, that lends quite a bit of credit.
	I always thought that was some sort of urban legend, but I've got it in Goldwater's words.
	Yeah, well, when I was speaking about urban mythology, it doesn't mean it's necessarily not true, or that some parts of it are not true.
	It's just become ensconced as a myth.
	Mm-hmm.
	And repeated endlessly by people who tend to embellish it each time they repeat it.
	Might I ask you, in your field, Bob, I'm going to ask you for an assessment of your own reputation.
	How do your colleagues, are you regarded as a fairly mainstream photographic analyst?
	As far as I know, they may change their opinion after my involvement in this project.
	Prior to now, they've thought of me that way.
	Were you scared of this?
	Scared of being involved in it?
	Scared, yeah, from a career point of view.
	Yeah, I was, and I still have some reservations, but I'm too far into it now to pull out, and it's something that's personally very interesting to me.
	I'm excited by the possibilities, and especially excited by the possibility that it does turn out to be the real thing.
	It is a frightening thing to From a career point of view, for anybody to pursue Bob, I'm pursuing it because I can't not do it.
	And I've done this for years, and this to me, if it is true, and I'm leaning toward thinking it is, is the story of everybody's lifetime.
	I mean that we're not alone.
	It's such a big story that you just can't not do it.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Bob Shell.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	I'm calling from Seaside, Oregon.
	All right.
	And I had two thoughts, and I don't know, it's no more bizarre than the whole idea of what we've seen on the films.
	Has it been eliminated, any of the Nazi German experiments with humans and Mengele's work?
	I know that sounds bizarre, but what do you think?
	Well, I'm not clear on the question.
	Well, you know, in investigating that this is a humanoid type creature, we don't know if it's alien.
	We don't know a lot of things.
	But a lot of experiments have been done on humans and diseases and so forth and radiation and whatever.
	I just wondered if there's been any thought on could it have been created in some way here on Earth?
	All right.
	Well, my answer to that would be no, because while you might certainly damage a body with radiation, you're not going to cause it to grow six fingers and six toes, to the best of my knowledge.
	Would you agree with that, Bob?
	Well, it's a little bit outside of the realm of something I can comment on as an expert, but it doesn't seem likely to me.
	There have been these suggestions from the very beginning that this is a human suffering from some rare genetic disorders, but the particular combination of disorders you'd have to have to create something this bizarre is just mind-boggling.
	And then to have three of them with exactly the same set of genetic disorders is just Out of the question, I would think.
	The numbers would be big.
	In your work with the FBI, or any other government agency, have you had occasion to previously analyze film of a dissection or of medical things?
	Not in connection with any of the government agencies.
	I have done this sort of thing for some police departments and that sort of thing.
	I'm pretty familiar with what the internal organs of people are.
	I did all of the photography for a college level manual on anatomy and physiology, which is a dissection manual.
	In the process of doing the photography, I had to spend quite a lot of time in some very unpleasant places to take the pictures.
	I pretty much know what comes out of a body when you cut it open and start pulling things Kate, you obviously have contacts with government agencies.
	You probably have friends who are in the FBI.
	And if you don't want to answer this, don't.
	But I assume that you've had some private conversations with them about this.
	Quite a few private conversations.
	Without naming names, can you give us any idea of the content of those conversations, their reaction, what they said?
	Well, there's a tremendous amount of interest.
	In this.
	Because a lot of the people in various government agencies and government contracting agencies know that something is there.
	They've heard enough through the pipeline to know that there's something really going on.
	But they've been kept out of the loop.
	And they see this as a chance to find out what has been going on all this time.
	I'm hoping if the person doesn't I don't want to get too frightened.
	I'm hoping to talk to somebody this week who may have actually had hands-on experience with these boxes that were taken from the aliens.
	And again, for the late listeners, some of the film includes photographs of the boxes.
	You actually saw it?
	Did you see that?
	Oh, yes.
	You've seen the film of the boxes?
	And boxes is a bad term.
	Can you describe what you saw?
	What they are is, they look like they're about two and a half feet long, about a foot and a half in depth, and maybe two and a half inches in thickness.
	Uh-huh.
	And they have on the top surface, I'm assuming the top surface, they have the impression of two hands, two six-fingered hands.
	Really?
	With buttons in the palm and buttons in the fingertips.
	Plus two rows of buttons above the ends of the fingers.
	In other words, this is some sort of control that was designed for somebody with six fingers.
	Good Lord.
	It's a device of some sort, and the speculation is it's a computer of some sort.
	And the hand imprints are actually the input part of the device.
	Well, that would seem to blow right out the window.
	The speculation that this is, and I cannot recall the medical name for those who have, occasionally there's somebody born with six fingers or six toes, rarely on both hands and both feet, if ever, but that would blow that right away.
	In other words, the device was designed for somebody with six fingers.
	Right.
	It's called polydactyly.
	Oh, thank you.
	It's not as rare as some people think.
	But typically the sixth digit is not a functional digit.
	And from what I could see of the footage, and I know you've examined it far more closely than I have, would you describe the sixth digit as in proportion as opposed to a little stub or something?
	Oh yeah, it appears to be a fully functional digit.
	And the articulation of the hand itself is slightly different from a human hand.
	The digits appear to be roughly the same length, unlike ours where we have varying lengths in our fingers.
	And if you hold your hand in front of your face with your palm toward you, you will notice that your hand curves down toward your little finger.
	That's right.
	Where the fingers attach to the body of your hand.
	That's right.
	This is more straight across at that point.
	So if the hand is closed, the fingers tend to not move over toward the thumb as they do in a human hand, but to go straight toward the wrist.
	The way the hand is put together is deceptively human in first appearance, but when you look at it closely, it's not the same as our hand.
	This is so incredible.
	Do you feel as though all of this information, as the rest of it comes out, is going to finally blow this thing sky high, or is it going to be absorbed into a culture that has so much information in it now that it's just going to be lost Somehow in the noise level.
	Well, I hope that doesn't happen.
	I hope it does lead to more revelations and lead to bringing out some of these witnesses who have been afraid to come out and talk about what they saw and what they handled and what they worked with.
	Especially the scientists who have been involved for all these years in the reverse engineering project to try to figure out what this stuff was and what could be done with it.
	Do you think there's, this again is way out of your field, but do you think there's any evidence, as you look at say the last 20 years of the development of our technological culture, where you would see a leap point that might suggest something was successfully back-engineered and all of a sudden we had microchips for the transistor, or is there any point, as you look at the development of our technology, that would suggest a leap That might have come from somewhere else.
	I think the problem was that what we saw was so far ahead of what we had at the time that people really had no idea of what it was they were looking at.
	And whether they have yet figured out enough to make any use of any of the technology, I don't know.
	All right, let me tell you this.
	If I was ABC, CBS, or NBC, after hearing this show this morning, I'd be knocking real hard on your door.
	And that's probably going to occur, Bob.
	Are you going to be willing to talk to the big media?
	Well, so far they haven't come to me.
	I've had all the European media coming to me.
	The French came to me last week and let me do an interview for their television.
	I know, but after this... But if these guys come to me and want me to talk, of course I'll talk to them.
	You will talk, alright.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell in Washington, D.C.
	Yes, Art.
	Um, let me just lower my radio.
	Turn it off, please.
	Okay, one second.
	All right, um, first of all, look, there's no such thing as Martians.
	All right, so let's knock it off.
	Stop reading your comic books.
	Okay, just get back to the issues of the show.
	I mean, if... Nobody said they were Martians, sir.
	And then the only people are gonna... Sir, I repeat... ...are the Funny Farm.
	I mean, it's unbelievable, this nonsense.
	Now, don't stop at behavior.
	Act your age, for God's sake.
	Martians.
	You hear that, Bob?
	This is the kind of anger that I was talking about.
	Let me say that I would suggest psychoanalysis for the person who just called.
	Someone who's that angry about something has a real internal problem.
	Maybe this man is an abductee and is suffering from the consequences.
	I don't want to be mean to him, but I've had a lot of calls like that.
	I understand where they originate from and I understand the why of them and I think Bob it explains why the government is hesitant to come out and really admit this because it would just it would be socially horrendously disruptive not for Bob Shell and maybe not for Art Bell and maybe not for a lot of the callers but the kind of guy who just called us uh... would absolutely come apart
	One of the problems and one of the possible reasons for all this cover-up also is that the government doesn't really want to admit to us that there are people flying around out there who can come into our most sensitive areas at will and we can't do a darn thing about it.
	That we can't do anything about.
	They like control.
	Bob, hold on, we'll be right back to you.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	This is a tribute to the great American singer and musician, John Lennon.
	John Lennon was born in 1925 in New York City, New York.
	He was born in 1926 in New York City, New York.
	John Lennon was born in 1926 in New York City, New York.
	He was born in 1926 in New York City, New York.
	Tonight's program originally aired September 4th, Hello everybody, I'm Art Bell.
	My guest is Bob Schell.
	This is the final half hour and I'm going to devote it as much as possible to your calls.
	Bob Schell is a photo analyst, has done consulting work for the FBI and many other government agencies, has been in the CIA, did a short stint though not connected to any of this, and has examined the Roswell, now there I go again, the film that shows an autopsy that may have been Either Roswell or a crash that occurred near Sapporo, New Mexico.
	Now, with regard to the last very angry caller, I've got a pretty good answer, I think, that comes from Grants Pass, Oregon.
	And we'll get to that in just a second.
	Right now, let me take care of business, and then we'll fly through the final half hour of what has been three hours of very highly packed information about what I consider to be A darn important topic.
	We'll be right back.
	All right, here's a concept.
	I think the reason that many of the naysayers simply refuse to even consider that the film is real is because they are scared.
	It's a frightening concept to the fragile mind, but I've got news for them.
	If the unseen footage does indeed contain the images of crashed debris, another autopsy, and Truman, then that's it.
	Game over.
	The film is authentic.
	This is getting too big to be a hoax.
	The sheer amount of dollars needed to pull off one autopsy is one thing.
	But two autopsies, crashed debris, and Truman makeup?
	Come on.
	If these other images are indeed available to be authenticated, Then our lives are in for a big, big change.
	And I think the angry caller we had, Bob, was frightened of any such even possibility.
	Oh, I think a lot of people are.
	And so then I suppose the government experts must gather and say, what do we do?
	And I guess they're doing the only thing they can do is simply keep their mouths shut And sit back and watch how this develops.
	But if the rest of this comes out and is authenticated by people like yourself, as this first part appears to be, it's calling for a social comment, but I mean, do you think that the glue that holds us together will somehow come unglued or speculate?
	I doubt that the whole fabric of society will collapse, I think.
	Some people will collapse, and we'll have to be gradually eased into the implications that all this has on us.
	The primary implication, I would think, being that mankind and humans aren't really the top of the ladder.
	That there's other things above us in the ladder, in terms of intelligence and development and evolution and whatever else you want to talk about.
	Well, let me say this.
	The way this is developing, and I'm following the story, and if the story was beginning to lead me toward this being a fake, then at some point I would drop it, or I'd become disinterested, or I'd expose it as a fake, but the story is going just the other way.
	Are you inclined to agree with that?
	In other words, each new thing we find out, much of what you've told us tonight, leads us toward thinking it is genuine, To respond by saying, little man from Mars, give me a break, go back to regular programming, is just a closed mind, a frightened mind.
	Right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell in Washington, D.C.
	Hello.
	Hello, this is Clifford from Roswell.
	Roswell, New Mexico.
	Yes, sir.
	I was wondering if you would ask the gentleman... You're on the air, so you ask him.
	Okay, when you see the photographer, Could you ask him if he knows of the Interplanetary Phenomena Unit of the Army, CIC?
	I'll be happy to ask him, yes.
	Okay, sir, I believe the colonel from White Sands that told him to go take the photographs was the project officer for this geographical location at that time.
	And I think they'll go a long way in showing that the information's probably still stored In what's called the Blue Room at Wright-Patterson.
	The one that Barry Goldwater asked about, right?
	Yes, sir.
	Because all that stuff went through the Project Coordination Officer at Moondust.
	Right.
	And they did the analysis.
	Right.
	All right, caller.
	Thank you.
	There is that, isn't there, Bob?
	Do you think there might be a way to press the government to open what's at Wright-Patterson?
	Well, one of the first things I did when I got the cameraman's statement and access to some information from the cameraman, which has not been made public yet, was to take the information provided by the cameraman and use it as the basis to file a large number of Freedom of Information Act requests.
	Oh, you have?
	Oh yes, and those are in the process of working their way through channels right at the moment.
	The question is whether they'll come back with big black blobs or... They may.
	But if they do, the blobs are sometimes as important as the stuff that's not blobs.
	It's true.
	Would you like to make any of that public now?
	No, I can't at this time.
	I want to wait until I get the information back because I don't want to... It's like a police officer investigating a crime.
	He always keeps a few details of the crime to himself so he can separate the good stuff from the bad stuff.
	Can you tell us whether this information that you got from the cameraman tends to Add credibility to the story or detract from it?
	Neither one.
	It's just details of... I guess you'd say it does add some credibility because it's details of names of people who were involved in the operation and that sort of stuff, which can be used to ask for their... Absolutely.
	Ask for their personal diaries for the dates in question, see where it says they were, their appointment books.
	That sort of stuff.
	Clearly, this whole story is now beginning to move toward more credibility, I think, because the trails are proving true trails.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Big Lake, Alaska.
	Big Lake, Alaska.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Well, you know what?
	What?
	I was just wondering what you thought about the possibility that this link could turn out to be like a 90-day wonder.
	I mean, I thought the fall of communism, as we knew it, was fairly earth-shattering, but a lot of the people I knew just didn't think it was that big a deal.
	No, it's a pretty good question, Bob.
	Whether this will be a big 90-day wonder, and we're all excited about it, and then in 90 days it will just fade and go away.
	Well, I suspect that the average person, you know, who gets up in the morning and eats breakfast and goes to work and does their job and comes home at the end of the day, it's not going to be directly They're still going to go to the same job and still do the
	same thing and all the rest of that.
	So in terms of the basic structure of society, I don't think it's going to change it radically,
	but the emotional aspect of society may change quite a bit.
	That's something we can't even guess at the implications at this point.
	On the wild card line, you're on the air with Bob Shull in Washington, D.C.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Wonderful interview.
	You're doing great with the questions.
	Where are you, ma'am?
	I'm the blind lady from San Antonio that requested that someone describe the body.
	Oh, yes.
	I was a photographer when I went blind.
	I'm fascinated with your guests.
	My question really doesn't have anything to do with photography, but since he's had such an opportunity to study the film, has he been able to see if anything about the eyes Before they started peeling away anything, could he determine what they looked like under the lid?
	Alright, good question.
	Thank you.
	First of all, with regard to what they peeled away, any comments on that, Bob?
	It's difficult to see, but they obviously pulled something, some black, it has kind of a biological There's two possibilities there.
	One possibility is that someone has suggested that this is something that our people put on the eyes to keep them from drying out prior to the autopsy.
	That is a valid suggestion, although I can't find anybody in the medical community who knows Use of a material that looks like what we're seeing in this film.
	Clearly the doctor seems to understand that it is just some sort of covering and just reaches down and plucks it off.
	Right.
	Now, it was suggested this was not the first autopsy.
	It was not chronologically.
	It was the second chronologically.
	Second chronologically.
	So it's quite possible he knew what it was because of the first autopsy.
	But it's also possible he knew what it was because he put it there.
	And that is yet to be resolved.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell in Washington, D.C.
	Hi.
	Where are you, please?
	I'm from Houston.
	Houston.
	Go ahead.
	Yeah, I watched the movie, too, and I think it is real.
	And I think the government could do something like that.
	It's getting to be where I'm starting to believe just about anything nowadays.
	It is true.
	Thank you.
	The government seems to be, nothing seems to be beyond The possibility with regard to our government, and you work in the government and with the government, and I guess you affirm that, don't you, Bob?
	Oh yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	You know, considering that the way that some of these visitors were sort of smacked around with rifle butts, I think we're kind of fortunate that their friends didn't come back and try to stage some sort of a rescue mission like we did with Scott O'Grady.
	Um, I would, I really would like to see some more information come out about these boxes and these laptops.
	They certainly sounded like laptops to me.
	And, you know, it would sure be nice if some of that technology could be brought into the computer world.
	Well, how do you know it hasn't?
	Exactly.
	One thing, as I was watching the film last night, it did seem kind of, it was a little bit hard to follow the flow of it because there was a lot of editing and all like that, but I did notice that the color, or at least the gray scale of the skin, seemed to change.
	It was sort of a whitish gray in the beginning and towards the end, the face anyway, seemed to be very much darker than that.
	And it sort of seemed to me that If this is a hoax, that was a real thoughtful touch.
	It just went a whole lot more credibility to the whole thing.
	Caller, where are you?
	Culver City, California.
	Alright, good.
	Thank you very much.
	Did you also notice that, Bob?
	What that is, is what I mentioned earlier, the density variation in the film because it was hand-processed.
	You have seen something we have not seen.
	You have seen The uninterrupted version.
	Now, Fox, of course, cut it up and made it dramatic and did interviews and sort of pieced it out, and a lot of people have complained about that.
	When you see the film in an uninterrupted version, as you have seen it, does it add credibility or detract credibility?
	Did Fox take things out that might make people say, gee, what a fake?
	Or when you see the whole film, are you more impressed?
	I think you're more impressed although watching the whole autopsy several times after a while it gets quite boring.
	Because it is an 18 minute sequence.
	I understand.
	Out of about an hour and 40 minute actual real time autopsy.
	So we know the actual time by the clock on the wall which is visible on and off throughout the film.
	That's right so you can time the How long it really took.
	you know i i was just wondering though if for the first time you were exposed to the entire autopsy
	instead of sort of the cut-up segments with the interviews with the stan
	winston very impressive and all the rest of it very well done
	for drama a lot of people call him blamed about the way fox did it
	and i wonder if they had seen the film without interruption whether they would
	have been more impressed uh...
	less impressed or i think i think it would depend on
	degree of uh...
	biological knowledge person here if you don't know what you're looking at it could be that
	impression anymore to keep the whole thing that it doesn't keep pieces of so then
	maybe fox was not so dumb to interrupt it and introduce uh... an expert of
	pathologists and all the rest of it that they did
	the fact that you watch the whole thing for someone who's not used to that kind
	of thing it's pretty gory and some people may have
	really been disturbed by watching the whole thing without all the cuts that they put into it
	a good very good point East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
	Hey, let me turn on my radio.
	All right.
	Turn it off, actually.
	How you doing?
	Good.
	I'm not an angry caller like that one person I called up.
	I'm a little skeptical.
	Why are the big stations, 5 or 7, how come they haven't had them on?
	5 or 7?
	Channel 5, I mean NBC or ABC.
	Well, I've been asking that.
	I would imagine after the program we're doing this morning, that indeed, The other networks are going to be approaching Mr. Shull.
	You know, one answer he gave earlier was that they don't have rights to the film.
	Fox bought rights to the film.
	They've got no right to show it without permission from Fox.
	And one can presume when Fox paid all the money, they're not going to be just handing out permission for everybody to broadcast.
	Yeah, but if you think of that big of a story, you'd think they would get the rights.
	I agree.
	I mean, I absolutely agree their news departments would be pursuing this.
	I also think, sir, that if there was a major hole that could be shot in this, NBC or ABC or one of the others, would do it and get Fox at the same time.
	Wouldn't you?
	Yeah, I would.
	It just seems like, you know, the thing looks like a doll when you first look at it.
	It's kind of hard to believe.
	You know, because I was reading one of those alien books, and I was reading two stories of this guy and his wife that got snatched up by an aircraft, and it was unbelievable to read something like that.
	You can't believe it.
	It's hard to... It is, it is, but of course this is fairly hard evidence.
	So that angry caller, he just better, you know, better watch himself, because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
	I think healthy skepticism is one thing, and there's nothing wrong with that, but that call was obviously I think you just should hang up on him, Mark.
	No, it was a frightened person, sir.
	I don't want to be mean to anybody.
	Here's one for you, Bob.
	Can you ask your guest if he knows if any blood or tissue samples were saved so possible DNA tests could be done today?
	Well, there's no way in the world I could know that.
	I assume that that would have been done.
	I mean, there's no point in going through this elaborate dissection if you're not going to save the stuff that you're dissecting.
	And so I would assume that large portions of the four bodies, there were four creatures total.
	Total of four?
	I would suspect that large portions, if not whole bodies, are in cryogenic storage somewhere and have been used over the years a little bit at the time as our technology advanced so we could tell things about them.
	And I'm sure that DNA sequencing, once that became available, would have been applied to tissue samples.
	All right.
	How about this one?
	With Mr. Schell's background in zoology, you do have one of those.
	That is part of your background, right?
	That's right.
	That's my original training.
	What can you say about the creature's eyes?
	These are eyes located in front of the face, giving a stereo view to judge depth to attack the victim.
	I'm not sure what all that means from Mike in Seattle, but what about the eyes?
	Well, he's right that hunters evolve stereoscopic vision and prey don't.
	That's a part of the evolutionary system and always has been.
	So you would assume that something with forward facing stereoscopic eyes evolved from a hunter creature initially.
	If these are evolved creatures.
	And we speculated earlier that they may not be.
	But the eyes are physically far larger than human eyes.
	They're golf ball sized.
	And the eye sockets are far larger.
	You're able to make those determinations by measurements of other relevant, the size of other relevant things in the room, the other human beings.
	Yeah, and by superimposing a human skull over the skull of this creature to see that the proportions are quite different and the eye sockets are proportionally much larger.
	Now the implication of that would probably be that these are creatures that If they are evolutionary development, they evolved somewhere with dimmer light than we have.
	Therefore, the larger eye.
	That would make sense.
	Yeah, that would make sense.
	And if these black coverings over their eyes are something that the creatures put there, then they might just be interplanetary Foster Grants.
	In other words, protection from our relative brightness.
	Right, exactly.
	If the planet is much brighter than where they come from, they need something like that.
	All right, look, this is a fast developing breaking story, and it sounds as though in the next few weeks and months you're going to have a lot of new information, Bob.
	Oh, yes.
	May I depend on bringing you back on again when that happens?
	Oh, sure.
	Be happy to.
	In the meantime, you're not hawking any books or selling any videotapes, are you?
	I'm not selling anything except my consulting service.
	Well, you are indeed A very brave man to come on to 5 o'clock in the morning with me, which it is coming up on now, where you are in Washington, D.C.
	Bob Schell, it has been a pleasure.
	I'm happy to be here.
	Truly a pleasure, and thank you very much.
	You're welcome.
	Have a good morning.
	All right, there you are, ladies and gentlemen.
	Nothing to hawk, nothing to gain.
	Just information.
	Lots of it.
	Three hours worth of it.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	This is a test.
	The principles of love are easy to understand, what you feel, feel until the end.
	The principles of love are learned in your mind, do what you want, do it until you find love.
	The principles of love are easy to understand, what you feel, feel until the end.
	The principles of love are learned in your mind, do what you want, do it until you find love.
	The principles of love are easy to understand, what you feel, feel until the end.
	The principles of love are easy to understand, what you feel, feel until the end.
	radio networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	Good morning, everybody, and welcome.
	If whatever radio station you're listening to does not carry the entire program, you might give them a call, and I always urge people to do this, and I'll do it again now.
	When you do, please be polite.
	We have a lot of very loyal fans of the program, and they get exorcised greatly many times when they call radio stations.
	So please, be nice if you do call, and I do urge you to call, and ask them to carry more of the program.
	But by all means, be polite when you do so.
	You seem to be a reasonable person when you call.
	All right, I'm going to run through some of the rest of the news.
	This hurricane sounds awful.
	I'm not sure if at this hour we're still on, but I am hereby opening my first time caller line to anybody in the Caribbean.
	Anybody in the Caribbean right now, and the Caribbean only.
	The U.S.
	Virgin Island chain, which appears to be directly in the way of this very, very large, very large and dangerous hurricane bearing down on them.
	I wish I could have done this earlier, and you can certainly depend that I'll be doing it tomorrow.
	Unfortunately, by tomorrow there may be no communication, short wave out of the islands.
	So if you're in the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, anywhere in the Caribbean, Please call me now at area code 702-727-1222.
	Everybody else, lay off, please.
	Caribbean only at area code 702-727-1222.
	layoff please caribbean only
	at area code seven oh two seven two seven one two
	to do again the caribbean only at seven oh two
	seven two seven one two to do
	hurricane louise may be the biggest hurricane in fifty or sixty
	years.
	It has sustained winds of 140 miles an hour.
	It has gusts to 160.
	It may be building.
	It's bearing down on the Caribbean.
	And so let us go to the Caribbean.
	Hello there, sir.
	Welcome to the program.
	Would you turn your radio off for us, please?
	Turn the radio off?
	Turn the radio off, yes.
	Okay, one second.
	All right.
	We're about to talk to the U.S.
	Caribbean, I think.
	Yes.
	How are you doing?
	I'm fine, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Taos, Virgin Islands, in an area we call Tutu.
	Okay.
	I'm hearing some noise there.
	Okay.
	It was the radio.
	We're going to turn it down.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Now, tell us, what do you know about the hurricane?
	What kind of preparations are going on there now?
	Well, everything is being taken care of.
	The Governor and all the other emergency agencies are being in readiness.
	They have already called off some of their working situations for tomorrow.
	As a matter of fact, I'm just waiting for one of the Red Cross personnel to come and get me to open one of the shelters.
	All the shelters will be open at 6.
	The winds here, you know, Quite breezy.
	We understand the storm is pounding Antigua right now with winds of over 70 to 100 miles per hour.
	And they haven't been hit directly as yet.
	And we are... Alright, a lot of people don't know about the geography in the Caribbean.
	You say now it's beginning to hit Antigua.
	How far is Antigua from you?
	Antigua is probably 100 miles or more.
	Uh, when I checked the, um, the coordinates, uh, when they started receiving rains early, yes, I mean, late yesterday afternoon, uh, which would, uh, say, give the storm, I think, about 12 to 16 hours away from St.
	Thomas, Virgin Islands itself.
	So they are in the, uh, more east, southeastern Caribbean from us.
	We are about, uh, 70 miles from Puerto Rico.
	And if you remember St.
	Croix, who was hit so hard last time with the storm, they are 40 miles to the south from us.
	And they are receiving a little more stronger winds than we are at this present time.
	However, like I said, if the hurricane continues on its present track, how far will it pass from St.
	Thomas?
	We're going to be in the middle of it.
	You're going to be in the middle of it?
	Not the middle.
	The eye would not pass over us.
	But when I said mid, in its immediate gasp from the eye, we would be probably on the north side of the eye.
	The eye would probably pass south of us.
	Boy.
	I can give you a number of one of the radio stations that is doing a very good job, which is WSDA, and he can probably give you some of the other numbers of some of the other stations.
	That is our affiliate there?
	Yes.
	That's why I was listening to you on WSDA.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Tell us a little bit about the island of St.
	Thomas, the buildings that are on St.
	Thomas.
	Are they built to sustain hurricanes, many of them, or is there a lot of very shabby construction?
	What do you think?
	Oh, no, no.
	The building construction here is, as a matter of fact, very strong, much stronger than a lot of buildings I've seen pounded by hurricanes over the years in the American states.
	As a matter of fact, I do some building myself, and I know The homes are tied with steel from the building from in the foundation right up to the roof and that's why so many of the buildings continue to stand but with hurricane force wind they come in sort of like a tornado type.
	And there's nothing you really can do.
	It will rip your roof off.
	It would tear the trees down.
	It would push the telephone poles or electrical poles down on your home.
	And there's really nothing you can do about that.
	So what they do is just ask most people to stay indoors.
	There are shelters.
	There are some people who live in, you know, like trailer homes.
	They get pounded the most.
	But most, for our part, most of the buildings remain standing.
	but because we use galvanized on the roof the hurricane sometimes just tear them off
	and uh...
	a funny situation during the hugo uh...
	hurricane ripa hurricane clips and
	wood and steel that was bounded together and just twisted it up
	and uh... really there's nothing you really can do just stay low. Even with good
	construction are there a lot of people now trying to get out of the caribbean?
	well american airlines is uh...
	sending uh... flight direct to miami this morning as they announced
	They stopped flights.
	Some people have stopped flights.
	A lot of people.
	I haven't been to the airport.
	There's not a helter-skelter.
	People are preparing, you know.
	But the airlines are promising a flight to Kennedy and a flight to a Miami airport in the morning.
	American is one of the biggest airlines we have in here.
	I think we have a couple others.
	But all in all, like I said, most of the people are calmly indoors.
	Most people went shopping Friday yesterday.
	Most of the stores were open yesterday, even though it was Labor Day.
	I would like to commend all the people who came out to work yesterday so we could get our gas and oil.
	I would imagine now a lot of people are boarding up windows, that kind of thing.
	Yes, definitely.
	As a matter of fact, most of the people have already boarded up.
	There's still a lot of people who have not.
	Don't know what to do but the information coming on the radio is telling you exactly what to do.
	and the National Guard and the Red Cross and so on will be going around helping people
	out evacuating, people who have to be evacuated.
	So you know, some of the people haven't experienced it and so they kind of don't know what to
	do but the information coming on the radio is telling you exactly what to do.
	I think the Weather Channel is also giving some good information as to what to put in
	your pockets if you have to leave such as your money, your credit cards or whatever.
	Sure.
	You can, you know, go to a shelter if you have to leave because... I could swear I'm listening to you.
	I can almost hear the wind.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yes.
	And I'm indoors.
	And you're indoors?
	I'm indoors.
	That's right.
	The winds are blowing from the north at this present time.
	North, northeast.
	It's a pleasant breeze compared to the heat we've been feeling, you know.
	That is, as we said, when everybody was saying it's so hot, something's going to happen.
	Listen, my friend, I've got to go.
	What is your first name, please?
	This is Roy.
	Roy?
	Yes.
	Roy, I really want to thank you for giving us an update like this.
	All right.
	And the reason why I was up, I was sleeping and trying to get some sleep, and the Red Cross called, and I heard you said you were opening the lines.
	That's right.
	I just hung up the phone.
	From the people at the Red Cross.
	They said they're going to come pick me up.
	So I heard.
	So I said, let me call at least if I can get through.
	I can probably let some of the people know.
	So in other words, the Red Cross is about to evacuate you?
	No, no.
	I'm going to be a shelter manager.
	A shelter manager?
	Yeah.
	And so I'm going to go down and get the briefing and they will talk to me and tell me how to probably register people who have to come to the shelter.
	And, you know, if there are any other volunteers, we're short of some volunteers, you know, because at this time, most people are trying to help with their own families, you know.
	Roy, I've got to go, but I want to thank you, and we will pray for you.
	Thank you so much.
	I do the works all the time.
	Take care.
	Thank you very much.
	I will continue to hold this line open for the Caribbean.
	That line is now open exclusively for the Caribbean.
	And I'll tell you, I've got a fax here.
	This came in at 8 p.m.
	Pacific Time.
	Major breaking news at 8 o'clock this evening.
	KNXT AM Radio reports meteorologists are identifying Luis, the present hurricane in the Caribbean, as being the strongest in 50 years.
	Apparently it is aimed at Puerto Rico and or the U.S.
	Virgin Island area.
	Also, please, an update on Montserrat.
	I don't have that right now.
	But, uh, this hurricane is a bad one.
	On my Caribbean line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Yes.
	Turn your radio off for us, please.
	Yes, it's off.
	Right now, we are feeling the wind.
	It's just minutes after five.
	I haven't slept.
	I've been up all night from yesterday.
	Now, where are you?
	I live in Tutu.
	Tutu?
	Yeah, in St.
	Thomas, Virginia Island.
	St.
	Thomas, alright.
	What are you going to do?
	Are you going to stay in your home or leave?
	you could tell that the weather is coming.
	And last time I spoke to someone in Antigua, they say it was raining cats and dogs.
	What are you going to do?
	Are you going to stay in your home or leave?
	No, I'm going to stay here.
	I wasn't here for Hugo because my daughter born the day before Hugo.
	I wasn't here for Hugo.
	Oh, you were?
	So I have to check.
	So you stayed in your home for Hugo?
	I was in a hospital for Hugo.
	Oh, a hospital.
	Yes, I got my baby the day before Hugo.
	I have to stay for the whole week until it's finished.
	So this is my first time really battling a one like this, and I'm kind of scared, but I can handle it.
	What are the latest reports?
	Is this hurricane building and getting stronger, do they say?
	Well, right now we're moving at 9 miles per hour, and they say that the ice is still coming towards us between St.
	Thomas and St.
	Croix.
	I'm putting Rico to have a watch out right now.
	And it's on the barrel, the barrel millibar is right now at 94.2 so it's getting, the millibars are going back up.
	At last evening it was like 938 millibars, so it got right back up.
	So they say the stronger the millibars, the higher the wind goes.
	So they think it is strengthening?
	Yeah.
	Well, we will all pray for you.
	Yes, we do.
	We like that.
	Please be safe.
	Yeah, you too.
	Thank you.
	Bye.
	Bye.
	It's going to be a rough hurricane season, folks.
	Very rough.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art Bell.
	Yes.
	I'm Diana from Santa Rosa.
	Hi, Diana.
	And I thank you for bringing the world together.
	I'm from the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, from St.
	Thomas.
	Oh, you are?
	And I was living in St.
	Thomas when Hurricane Hugo went by, and I'm sure glad I'm not there now, except I do have a lot of family there.
	So my mother was removed from her home, and not because she had to be, but my brother wanted her to be with him.
	And so I spoke to him about 11.30 last night, I guess.
	Yes.
	You said the winds were beginning to pick up, and if it's going to be more dangerous than Hurricane Hugo, they're in for a killing.
	A real one, I know.
	Yeah, because Hurricane Hugo was pretty bad.
	Well, we are very, very fortunate to be able to bring the world together, as you put it.
	Oh, you sure did.
	That was real, and it was so strange.
	I heard you at 11 o'clock say you were going to be talking to the Virgin Islands.
	And I fell asleep and I just happened to wake up just before the first guy called.
	I kept my radio on and it must have been the vibrations that came through to me.
	And I just woke up when that first gentleman called by the name of Roy.
	And it was interesting to listen to them, but pretty spooky for them.
	I'll tell you, and I don't mean to exaggerate this or get over emotional about it, but I've been feeling this, ma'am, for some time.
	Things are changing.
	The weather patterns are changing, the storms are going to be a lot worse this year, and this, I'm sorry to say, is the first really serious example of it.
	Oh, you're not kidding, because, like, my mother, for instance, is 79 years old, and, you know, talking to her a couple days, or about a day and a half ago, she said that never in her life has she known so many hurricanes to be coming off of Africa like they're coming this year, and they're just one right after the other.
	I know.
	It's part of what I call the quickening.
	Yes, I know.
	I listen to you on a regular basis.
	So I agree with you.
	It's in the pattern of the quickening.
	I feel for you.
	Are you going to keep calling for as long as you can?
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, last night when I was calling my brother, I called for about two and a half hours before I got through because the line would ring once and then it would say all circuits were busy.
	Yes, I bet.
	And so I couldn't get through, so I finally got through when it was... When it begins to get like that, it's really strange.
	All circuits are busy going from here to there.
	But they can still manage to get out from there to here.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	And I remember, I'm telling you, when Hurricane Hugo came by, it's a very strange feeling to be on a little island and be totally isolated.
	I know.
	Because we didn't have, you know, at our house where I was living, we didn't have electricity for almost three months after that.
	So we never got to see TV or anything.
	And it was very hard living, you know, after that.
	You just totally cut off from the world, you know, and it's a very strange feeling.
	And WSDA stayed right on the air as long as they could, and everybody that had, you know, battery-operated radios, that was the only kind of communication to find out what was happening.
	Well, thank you very much.
	You're very welcome.
	You have a good morning, and that's why I keep preaching to people about battery-operated radios.
	Realize what you need until you need it, and then of course generally by then it's too late.
	But you need to have, I don't care where you are, Midwest, East Coast, Hurricane Country, Earthquake Country, you should have some kind of battery operated radio.
	You need to have the minimal survival items around the house.
	Water, a portable water.
	You need to have some sort of emergency medical kit.
	This is Not a guy in fatigues preaching to you about some great war that's coming.
	It's just that times are changing and things are quickening and prudent steps make sense.
	So take my advice and get yourself a decent radio, decent flashlight, decent emergency power.
	Do what you can do as you can do it.
	Be prepared.
	You know, the old Boy Scout thing.
	On my Caribbean line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is WSDA calling from St.
	Thomas, Virgin Islands.
	Yes, good morning, sir.
	Welcome.
	Could you, uh, put on... Let me put you on hold while I let you speak to, uh... Oh, wow.
	Are you actually... Are you actually at WSDA?
	Yes.
	Could you hold a minute?
	Let me transfer you to our news director.
	I can hold.
	Yes, please.
	Wow, what a rare opportunity.
	We're going to be speaking with the News Director of WSTA in St.
	Thomas.
	Hello there.
	Yes, hello.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Lee Carl.
	I'm the News Director of WSTA Radio.
	Hi, Lee.
	Stand by.
	Let me get you up on the regular line.
	Line 2.
	Alright, bring me up on that line.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Are you able to hear me?
	Hello.
	Okay, it looks like that line is not going to work.
	Yes, can you hear me?
	I hear you just fine.
	Okay.
	Stand by one, if you'll hold on just a second.
	Hold on.
	Indeed I will.
	As will the whole nation.
	Stand by one, if you'll hold on just a second.
	Hold on.
	Indeed I will.
	Alright, I'll tell you, we're getting fed back.
	I'll tell you what we're going to do.
	We're heading into a break here.
	We're having to take a break at the bottom of the hour, so I'm going to, we'll try and get this straightened out, and coming out of the break, assuming that he can hold on, and I believe he can, we've got the news director from WSTA, our affiliate in the Virgin Islands, which would appear now to be very nearly the target of one of the very worst hurricanes in 50 years to come through the Caribbean, and of course Head, if it continues in the direction it's heading now, toward the U.S.
	mainland.
	That would be quite some time yet.
	But first, the U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	When we come back from the break, we'll try and get all this straightened out for you, we'll get the news director from WSDA on the air.
	You're listening to live radio, because this radio station Care is enough to have live talk radio on.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast AM concert series.
	You're listening to ARC Bell, somewhere in town.
	bell somewhere in time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Costa C...
	Good morning.
	This is Live Talk Radio at its very best.
	My name is Art Bell.
	On the line with me is Lee Carl.
	He is the News Director of WSTA in St.
	Thomas in the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, our affiliate there.
	Normally, we're off the air at just about this hour.
	We are not off the air this morning.
	They're holding us over.
	And, Lee, good morning.
	Welcome to the program.
	Good morning, Art.
	I hear many listeners across the United States.
	Yes, you would appear to be in the path of this monster.
	What can you tell us, and what would you like to tell the people on St.
	Thomas?
	Well, actually we have a newscast that comes up at about 6.30.
	That's when we really do our report.
	But we have already gone on the air at 5 o'clock to put the 5 o'clock coordinates on.
	And as you know, those coordinates do say that it is heading toward our area.
	This is the way it shapes up so far.
	Antigua's been reporting about 75 mile an hour winds or more.
	St.
	Kitts and the telephone systems and power systems were down.
	We've been hearing from nationals who live in the Virgin Islands about what's happening to their islands.
	And of course we are expecting now winds just begin to pick up in St.
	Croix.
	St.
	Croix is to the south of us, about 40 miles, and those same winds will, about 140 knots, will move this way.
	By 12 noon today, the word is, preparations are being made.
	In fact, the governor made a decision after receiving the reports indicating that preparations in the Virgin Islands should be completed before 5 a.m.
	Tuesday, that's this morning, when the 50-mile-an-hour winds are expected to reach St.
	Croix and impact St.
	Thomas.
	According to the weather service, the onset of the 50-mile-an-hour winds for the territory expected around 12 noon today And at that time, all residents should remain indoors in shelters.
	75 mile an hour winds will begin to affect the territory at 4 p.m.
	today.
	Art, I'm reading from an official communique from Government House and from Governor Roy Snyder.
	The Red Cross has begun preparing shelters for evacuation process.
	Shelters on St.
	Croix will be open at 4 a.m., that's this morning already, for those voluntarily choosing to evacuate their homes.
	St.
	Thomas shelters are open at 6 o'clock this morning, that's 25 minutes or so away.
	And on St.
	John, the shelters are open at 7 a.m.
	Of course, for those of you who don't know the Caribbean and know the American Virgin Islands, St.
	John is our smaller island, more pristine.
	But there are a number of residents there, of course, and they're listening right now, as well as St.
	Croix and all of the islands.
	Okay, so you are, or WSDA is, heard throughout the islands?
	Yes, it is.
	As a matter of fact, during Hurricane Hugo, We were the only facility on the air.
	All the other stations had gone down because of towers falling down and generators and a number of other items.
	I don't think anybody voluntarily decided not to be on the air.
	I think the storm just wiped them out in 1989.
	We were able to stay on the air.
	We were lucky and we continued to report even though we were down in power.
	We were the only voice in the area for that time.
	We don't think that'll be the case this time.
	We think The other stations are well prepared, and the government seems a lot more prepared than we were in 1989.
	Lee, let me ask you this.
	I asked an earlier native caller about construction.
	Now, throughout the islands, is it sort of scattered?
	In other words, is all construction hurricane-ready, or are there a lot of shanty areas that will simply be flattened?
	What is likely to occur if you get hit with 140-mile-an-hour winds?
	I think most people who learned the lesson of Hurricane Hugo and previous hurricanes redid their houses with hurricane hooks and the like.
	There are still some old houses, we don't call them shanties, we just call them old style houses that are still there and undoubtedly if they're not protected in some way they will go.
	There are areas here where People live in mobile homes, too.
	That's another problem that the officials were talking about.
	The downtown area, Art, if you're... I know you're going to ask this question.
	What does it look like right now?
	What does it feel like?
	Yes.
	There's a clammy feeling out there.
	That kind of high humidity.
	A calmness with a wisp of a wind blowing through the downtown area.
	There's nobody down there.
	The windows are boarded up.
	The stores are boarded up.
	Many people have bought sandbags so that the water can't get into the stores and the homes.
	And of course, the stores have been absolutely cleaned out.
	The shelves have been cleaned out.
	Major stores have decided they're closed today, but I just got a notice here that some of the major stores will remain open until about 12 noon today for last-minute preparation.
	We learned our lessons.
	It would appear so, and it's good advice to those to the west of you.
	I suppose, who have yet to experience this, and if it continues on its present track.
	What, by the way, is the forecast?
	Is it forecast to continue moving generally west, or what do they say?
	West-north-west was the last.
	In fact, I'll read it for you, if I may do that.
	You may, please.
	The center of Louis was located near latitude 17.4 north, longitude 61.4 west, or about 35 miles northeast of Antigua, and 65 miles north of Guadalupe.
	Louis has slowed now to 9 miles an hour, traveling in the westerly direction.
	And here's the part that really disturbs us a little bit.
	The gradual turn to the west-northwest is expected later today.
	That means the turn toward us.
	Yes.
	The maximum sustained winds are 140 miles an hour.
	What about, uh, do they say anything with regard to whether they feel it will strengthen, maintain, or what's it doing?
	Well, they did not say that, but let me read what it says here.
	The maximum sustained winds are 140 miles an hour with higher gusts.
	Louis remains a powerful category 4 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale, similar to Hurricane Hugo in 1980.
	Little significant change in strength is likely during the next 24 hours.
	Our feeling is, knowing tracking storms before, we've had four or five of them through here, and Hugo was the best lesson we ever had, that if it hits a landmass area, it tends to degrade the storm itself, dissipate it somewhat.
	Yes.
	Then as it gets back out over the Caribbean Sea, which is a warm sea, it builds back up again.
	So that gives you a general idea.
	Now here's another Well, part of it that you, that we watch here, because many times we've had storms come right up to our doorstep and turn away, but the winds associated with it that extend out, the hurricane force winds extend outward to 125 miles, the tropical storm force winds extend out to 200 miles, outer rain bands from the hurricane are continuing to spread over the Lourdes Islands, that's us of course, and Antigua reported gusts of 76 miles an hour,
	And the core of the hurricane with sustained hurricane force winds should spread over the northern leeward islands.
	The minimum central pressure, by the way, is 942 millibars or 27.82 inches.
	Wow!
	Here's something that would shake us up, too, because our waterfront is being worked on recently.
	Storm tides of 6 to 9 feet with higher values in exposed coves can be expected.
	And rainfall totals 10 to 12 inches.
	What's interesting, Art, is that Hurricane Hugo was a dry hurricane by standards.
	This does not appear to be.
	It's going to dump some heavy, heavy rain on us.
	Virgin Islanders always say we need the rain, but maybe not that much.
	Maybe not that much.
	What about the terrain on the islands, if you get that much?
	For example, how high Above sea level, does the island rise?
	Well, I'm going to use the figure here.
	I'm sure some purists will correct me, but it's 1,585 feet above sea level is the highest point.
	That's mountaintop.
	And the water comes down through those areas that have been kind of set aside so that it takes it down to the sea.
	And in the old days, the water would run off.
	But remember, there's been a lot of construction.
	Things have changed.
	So some flooding does take place, and some But for the most part, people who build homes on the side of the hills have taken that into consideration.
	And by and large, those homes remain pretty solid.
	But anybody, obviously, in a mobile home or a flimsy structure had better get to a shelter.
	I think that's what the government is saying.
	Governor Snyder and the rest of the people of Ipema are telling people.
	For instance, I have a directive here.
	Commissioner of the Department of Property and Procurement, Alvin Davis, directs all drivers of special education vehicles to report to the department's motor pool on St.
	Thomas and St.
	Croix.
	Department of Public Works on St.
	John immediately.
	Education food service workers are asked to report to work.
	And a long list of items of that nature, so that those people would be available.
	We have a long list, too, of shelters that are available.
	Most of them are in schools.
	Some large school complexes.
	I know that you're not an expert on this, but we've all been watching the Caribbean and the Atlantic very carefully, and I have never in my life seen, in my life anyway, seen such a lineup of storms.
	set aside for the shelters leon i know that you're not an expert on this but
	uh... we've been all been watching the caribbean uh... and the atlantic very
	carefully and i have never in my life seen in my life anyway seen such a lineup of storms
	is it reasonable to suggest that the weather seems to be getting more severe
	I I think you're right, and there's been a lot of speculation here by storm experts, and in Miami, that the change in the desert and Africa has contributed to that.
	There's been a change in the overall global warming, if you may use that.
	And that has changed the picture.
	We can remember in the early days, we'd get a tropical depression storm, and all of a sudden it would be gone, and that was it.
	In fact, interestingly enough here in the Virgin Islands, we have a Hurricane Thanksgiving Day at the end of the season, and a day before that, at the beginning of the season, to pray that a hurricane will not hit us.
	And Supplication Day.
	We will all be praying for you.
	And I mean that, and I want to thank you, and I suppose there's a high probability of communications going down rather rapidly as it closes in on you.
	I would think, though, Art, I want to just say this, that where that may have happened before, I think the lessons we learned at Hugo have shored up a lot of those areas.
	Well, when I said communications going down, I meant telephone communications.
	And lines probably will go down.
	Well, the governor assured us that he has satellite communication telephones.
	You know, those little ones up there.
	He'll be able to contact people in the states and let them know.
	Washington and the like.
	He's already indicated that he's talked to the FEMA people.
	In fact, have you got just a moment to hear the governor for a second?
	I do, absolutely.
	Go right ahead.
	Okay, let me do this.
	I would love to.
	This would be the governor of the U.S.
	Virgin Islands.
	This is a statement the Governor made earlier today.
	Alright.
	And he had his people and he was trying to make sure that everyone knew exactly what was happening.
	Let's see if we can get this on for you.
	Alright.
	He had his people and he was trying to make sure that everyone knew exactly what was happening.
	The President reads.
	The Honorable William J. Dickson, President of the United States, the White House.
	Him, it's the President.
	Following the conversation with your Director of FEMA, Mr. James Lee Wick, and having received the most recent weather report at 11 a.m.
	Tuesday, September 4th, I am sending this letter in support of immediate response of an emergency declaration if Hurricane Leith hits the United States Virgin Islands.
	The force of the hurricane winds at more than 140 miles per hour The tropical storm-force winds extend outward 200 miles, which suggests a heavy blow on the island if it continues on the same course.
	The Director of FEMA has assured me that the Mobile Emergency Response Team is on the alert, and he is preparing his agency for expeditious assistance through the territory.
	All agencies of all governments, including our National Guard, preparedness and carrying out their functions as per our
	emergency plan awaiting the arrival of the storm. On behalf of all the
	people of the Virgin Islands, I wish to thank you in advance for your
	expedition's declaration. Emergency with the appropriate assistance
	would be needed. Roy Schneider, Governor of the Virgin Islands.
	That was a letter the Governor sent to President Clinton asking the
	for the declaration of emergency and also telling the people of the Virgin
	Islands that his agencies were in place and that the thing the the storm itself
	as it comes to us we were we are prepared.
	Lee, I want to thank you for sharing this with all of America and Godspeed to you.
	Thanks very much, Art.
	Take care.
	And we'll keep listening.
	Take care.
	we'll be uh...
	alright i think we're up to date now from the u s Virgin Islands, and so I will open all lines for everybody once again.
	I feel as though I've been through the ringer with everything we've done this morning.
	This has been quite some morning, and again, it's the reason why you have live talk radio in the nighttime.
	There is frequently breaking news Uh, they're frequently, uh, in other parts of the world.
	For example, in the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, it's now coming up on 6 o'clock in the morning.
	And, uh, we appreciate the words.
	We appreciate, uh, the call.
	Uh, Lee, we certainly appreciate what you told us and your fellow islanders.
	And as I said, I wish you Godspeed.
	This is a very, very serious, very dangerous hurricane.
	On the wild card line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yes.
	Hello.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	I'm sorry.
	Excuse me.
	That's all right.
	This is Charles calling from Berkeley, and this is a spectacular night.
	I can't believe this.
	To go from three hours of bobshell to one of the largest storms in recent history.
	This is almost like Gordon Michael Scallion's prophecies coming true.
	I mean, I'm not even one I think that back in the 40s and the 50s, there could have been a credible argument for some concern about social disorder.
	take me and bring me out right now but one day i want to play you know if i can at one limited
	the call for more than where it was that the guy was panicking yes i think
	that back in the forties and fifties
	there could have been a credible argument for some concern about uh... social disorder
	people had a much more simplistic belief system in those days i thought i i
	tend to think uh... if you look at the genre of science fiction movies
	and written materials they always
	of showed alien visitation as being some sort of evil invasion type of thing, that sort of thing.
	However, in today's culture, it's very different.
	You know, you have E.T.
	and R2-D2 and all that kind of thing.
	It's seen in a much more benign light, and I think the vast majority of the population would tend to see this in a more positive way.
	However, the one reason that I could see where military intelligence people and folks of that ilk would still want to covet this information, if such is true, Is because, think of this, if they have even a small bit of remnants of some kind of craft, you know, bits of burned metal, or for that matter, you know, just a chunk of a spacecraft with its propulsion system intact, etc., imagine the military potential.
	In other words, this is technology that would be coveted.
	Well, and try, and they would attempt to back an engineer, and may already have done so.
	What I would say is this, sir, I thought Bob Shell was right on the money when he said, Look, the government is not going to talk about something that it cannot control.
	Absolutely correct.
	We like to think that we are in control of our skies, the space above the United States, certainly our land, and our immediate atmosphere, and to not be in control is something the military just could never admit.
	Or think of one other possibility.
	I agree with you, but in parallel to that, also consider that this is like a trump card.
	They want to keep up their sleeve.
	In other words, if there were ever Well, all I would say is this.
	confrontation every recruit require uh... technological prowess beyond what we currently have
	already shown publicly this would be like the ultimate trump art they have to try
	and keep gravitational propulsion system or whatever
	uh... this is the kind of thing that they would want to admit to until they
	really had to expose it for some sort of crucial need well all i would say is
	this at this point with the amount of evidence that is built
	because of the fox show because of bob shell uh... even perhaps more importantly bob shell
	And all the rest of it now, anybody who would laugh and chuckle and chortle at this, I don't know about them.
	I really don't know about them anymore.
	I know there are a lot of people who do, but it seems to me at this stage, it only reveals a very myopic way of thinking to continue to laugh.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Well, I'm glad you got it.
	Where are you?
	Florida.
	Yes, sir.
	Boy, he was something, wasn't he?
	I'm still skeptical, but he made a lot of good points.
	I think that what he had to say, informationally, went far beyond the Santilli What I wanted to ask him, maybe you would know, is if they ever show any footage of them actually dissecting the hands or the feet.
	Oh, it would have been a good question.
	Because what I've seen on Fox so far really doesn't go past what they would do in a normal autopsy.
	Oh, you're correct.
	And you would have to imagine that they would have dissected literally everything.
	Right, exactly.
	I have something else to report.
	Sure.
	Where are you in Florida, by the way?
	In Cape Cod.
	All right.
	Okay, you're not on the air anymore.
	I'm getting you very faintly on the station.
	I don't even know where it's coming from.
	I am a Christian, okay, but this stuff doesn't anger me at all or even threaten me in any way.
	I don't think it has anything to do with Jesus in any way.
	Well, then maybe you can tell me from your perspective why it does threaten some Christians.
	That's exactly what I was going to do.
	All right, go ahead, quickly.
	Okay, there is a passage in the Bible that incidentally is the one that, in my opinion, does rule out reincarnation.
	It's a passage where Jesus says, it is appointed for each man to die but once.
	Now, you can see a connection with reincarnation there.
	I asked the minister how that connected to aliens, and he said, well, if God created life somewhere else, that would mean that Jesus would have to go there, become mortal, and die on the cross the same as he did here, and then he would have to die mortally.
	And that, as far as he said, is the scriptural basis for it.
	I don't know if I agree with that or not, but... Well, I appreciate your open-minded attitude at any rate, and Look, we're out of show, we're out of time, we're out of everything, so you're the guy from Florida that gets to tell everybody goodnight, America.
	Goodnight, America.
	That's it, folks.
	Take me and ring me out from this one.
	Have a good night.
	We'll be back tomorrow at the appointed time, whatever that is.

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