Bob Shell, a Kodak and FBI/CIA-linked photo analyst, examines the 1995 Alien Autopsy Fox TV special’s unreleased footage—90 minutes of black-and-white film shot on 1947 Super XX stock, depicting Socorro crash debris (not Roswell) with intact I-beams bearing ancient Greek-like script. Shell dismisses hoax theories, noting low fog levels and destroyed nitrate rolls, while questioning Fox’s omissions, like missing stills and a "Truman"-labeled reel. A French team attempts colorization, but Shell’s skepticism lingers over inconsistencies, such as masked personnel and rapid organ removal in autopsies. Meanwhile, Hurricane Louis (1995) looms as a Category 4 storm, with St. Thomas bracing for 140 mph winds by September 4th, contrasting Hugo’s 1989 dry devastation. Shell’s FOIA requests and Bell’s urgency highlight the tension between suppressed evidence and public disclosure, leaving unresolved whether the film reveals extraterrestrial life or government secrets. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you good morning.
From the Pacific paradise of Tahiti, the Hawaiian Islands, our affiliates, our affiliate there, KHBH in Honolulu, all the way to the U.S. Virgin Islands, presently threatened by a Category 4, maybe soon five, hurricane.
Yeah, well, it's important to note that on the Fox program, the only Kodak person who was willing to talk to them on camera was Larry Cates, who is, in fact, a salesperson, not a technical person whatsoever.
One of them is that Super XX Is a very high-speed film, very sensitive film.
And the higher the speed of the film, the less shelf-life it has.
So this film had a very short shelf-life.
And we're looking for the most part here at images of very high quality.
There's not a lot of fog.
Fog is what builds up as film ages before it's exposed and processed.
This film shows very low fog levels.
And this puts us within a fairly narrow window.
I can't say that this film was absolutely exposed and processed in 1947, but I can say it was exposed and processed while it was still quite fresh, which in this case probably means a window of two, three years at the most.
You have seen, I guess the audience should now know, you have seen at least 20 minutes of the film that none of the rest of us have yet seen, including apparent scenes of the wreckage.
The I-beams, as you saw in the program that Jesse Marcel was describing, are fairly narrow, skinny little things that look like they were made out of balsa wood.
The I-beams that we have in the film are fairly large.
I'd say maybe two and a half inches tall, maybe three inches wide, obviously made of some quite strong metal with the writing not painted on them in some color, but the writing is actually part of the metal and raised above the surface of the metal.
Well, I'd say that there's not too much point in doing the story if you can only run a few image grabs, a few frame captures, or steal images from the film, which is all you can run if you aren't Fox.
Well, the cameraman's version of this, as I understand it, this particular thing I have not confirmed with him directly.
This is just my understanding, is that he was not taking what we would call the primary documentation.
This film was more of a moving chronicle to show exactly the sequence of things that was going on.
When he paused between rolls of film, his rolls of film were about two minutes and 40 seconds long.
He had to pause to reload the camera between those rolls.
When he took that pause to reload, there was a still photographer who came in and was taking high-quality still images, some of which would have been in color.
So that's one of the reasons that they didn't use color for this.
The other reason being that the color films of those days were quite slow, required a whole lot more light, and he was working under marginal conditions for a lot of his filming and would not have been able to use the existing color films because they just weren't fast enough, not sensitive enough.
Well, except that one might imagine that an alien, creature from some other planet, would have bacteria or germs that we now regard as level four, you know, all the hot zone kind of stuff.
In other words, something from somewhere else.
So I can imagine when we handle level four organisms, microorganisms now, we wear the equivalent of what we saw in that film.
In the film itself, I find credible just the, it's hard to put it to words, but the gut feeling of reality that it produces when you see the whole thing.
It comes through a little bit less when you see clips of it on television.
When you see the whole autopsy, you have a strong feeling, as these pathologists have said, that you're seeing an actual body of something being dissected.
I gave his testimony much higher weight than some of the others because he knows what he's talking about as far as faking something.
And as a matter of fact, if you want to see a state-of-the-art fake body, go to see the movie that's playing right now called Prophecy and then make a comparison because even though that is an expensive production and the dead angel that they have in the movie must have cost a bundle to manufacture, he still looks fake.
Since you know a lot about photography, one of the chief criticisms made during the film was that the photographer kept going in and out of focus, and one man expert claimed at critical moments it would go out of focus.
Now, we've got a break here at the bottom of the air, but when I come back, we come back, I want to ask you about that and about lenses and focus and state of the art at that time.
So stay right there.
My guest is in Washington, D.C. He's Bob Schell.
He's a photo analyst.
He's actually examined real imagery from the film.
He's got a lot to say about it.
We'll be right back.
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You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
Coast to Coast AM from September
4th, 1995.
Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
You're listening to Arch Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
Bob, let's cover this criticism that I've heard a lot of people make, even in the Fox piece, where they said, well, you know, every time you got close, the camera would blur and you wouldn't be able to see properly.
A camera of the kind used then, under the circumstances of being used by that cameraman, do you find that suspicious?
People will say, well, old film like that ought to have streaks.
And I'm not the expert you are in this area, but we've all seen it, the streaks and the little blurbs and white blobs that appear and all the rest of that.
Old and not always in the best of condition physically in the sense that some of the film is physically torn, the sprocket holes are chewed up and that sort of stuff.
And it's been a real devil of a problem to get some of it transferred to video because the film's physically so torn up.
The image is okay, but the edges of the film are frequently badly messed up.
Why do you think that Fox has not told us, I mean, the information you just gave us, for example, about a second autopsy where we're not out of focus, that's very important information.
The autopsy itself is about 18 minutes, the one that we've seen portions of.
The tenth scene, what Fox has is about two minutes of it.
The whole scene is about 14 minutes long.
And the first autopsy is about 12 minutes long.
In addition to that, there's something on the order of about 90 minutes worth of assorted footage that's all associated with this that varies from good quality through to mediocre through to absolutely awful quality.
And much of that is still in the process of being restored.
The most intriguing roll of film of all to me is one roll of film that has not been restored and put onto tape yet, but will be at some point.
Now, my position on it, and I've had it for a few days, is this guy is in his 80s, and I'm just now 50.
I can imagine that somebody in their 80s might well not want the world descending on them, which is exactly what would occur if his name gets out, and it's going to get out.
There's something written under the danger sign, but I haven't been able to read it and haven't had the time yet to try digital enhancement to see what it says.
I'm sure we will be able to read it once we do some tweaking around with it on the computer.
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And another question is about the clock, and since this is, I guess, supposedly at a military site, why isn't the clock in a 24-hour clock where it goes 24 hours all the way around?
No, I have no answer to that either, except that I have other photos from the same time period taken on military installations that show similar clocks.
So that doesn't bother me because obviously those clocks were used by the military.
I'm beginning to get the distinct feeling that you feel as I do about this, Bob, and I can't be sure, but I lean toward thinking this film is authentic.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell in Washington, D.C. Hello.
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Yeah, this is Ashland, Oregon calling.
The thing that really strikes me the most is something that somebody said is that if this were a hoax, it would be an extremely expensive hoax.
And the thing that strikes me is that what kind of person would shell out that kind of money to give this kind of hoax and not step forward and say, yes, it was me and I did it.
What kind of person would shell out that kind of money in 1947-9 when the film was apparently exposed and then hold on to it for all these years thinking, gee, someday there's going to be a big alien controversy and I can make a lot of money?
Yeah, and it doesn't make any sense.
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I think the only people that could have done that back then would have been the government.
I had a very heated debate with a friend the other day about this, and he brought up the point that, you know, there might be a reason for somebody trying to make the general populace believe that there is an extraterrestrial culture.
And he said that the government might have a reason for wanting the American people to believe that there is an alien presence either to scare them and to get some sort of control over them,
or perhaps they already have contact and they're starting to release these things to test the waters to see how the American people would react to such an alien race if there was.
There is one suggestion that sort of makes sense about why the government would have faked a film like this.
The suggestion was given to me by a former intelligence person who said that maybe this film was faked in 47 to intentionally leak it to the Russians to scare the heck out of them to make them think we had access to this alien technology.
Well, I would have to agree because we were at, obviously, the beginning of the nuclear age, and if you wanted to scare the Russians, we had some pretty real things to scare them with.
We didn't, seems to me we wouldn't need alien autopsies.
On the first-time caller line, welcome to the program.
Well, maybe the door then is beginning to crack open.
Bob, do you think that this film, ultimately, when all of it is out, will be strong enough to crack the door open and begin to make the American people, people of the world, realize there may be something to all this?
Well, I frequently said, Bob, that if somebody suddenly came forward with a film of some guy on the grassy knoll with a rifle and showing the trigger being squeezed and then a slow-mo of the bullet leaving the gun and hitting President Kennedy from the grassy knoll, people wouldn't believe it.
I mean, there are some things that have received, there's so much information out there that if somebody stood on a podium short of the president and said it is real, it's just one more piece of information.
My big hope about this film is that it will bring out a lot more eyewitnesses before they all die off, because there's still a lot of people out there who have not come forward.
If this is a legitimate film, having been on the inside once, Bob, what do you think the government's present position on it is?
I mean, do you think they'll just keep their mouths shut, not say a word, let people chuckle and chortle, and let everybody wonder, or will they eventually crack open?
I would have once said this kind of a secret never could have been kept.
But, I mean, recently we've got Hazel O'Leary coming forward saying we fed, you know, plutonium or whatever to kids.
And that was kept secret all those years.
Very well.
We never knew about it.
Would have been the scandal of the century.
But Hazel O'Leary walked out to a podium and said, yes, we did this.
Their current approach seems to be just to sort of let this thing work itself out in the public arena and see what happens.
I think they're taking a wait-and-see attitude.
Before I got involved in this, I went to a very good friend of mine who's an ex-CIA person because I wanted to know if he thought I'd be incurring any real personal danger by getting involved in this.
And his comment was, no, they've decided To let it out, because if they hadn't wanted to let it out, Ray Santilli and the cameraman would both have disappeared and be dead weeks ago.
I'm not sure they made the decision to let it out, but I think that the fact that it has come out, they may have decided just to let this play itself out and see what happened.
Rather than to try to intervene and confiscate the film, which is far too late to try to do that.
I have, as a guest, he's been on one hour, now will be on another, Bob Schell.
He is the man referred to by Linda Moulton Howe on Sunday.
He is a photo analyst.
He has done consulting work for the FBI and other government agencies, was at one time in the CIA, has analyzed an actual piece of the visual footage of the purported crash at Roswell, or is it Roswell?
We have yet to get to that.
We're going to lay rather heavily on the phone lines this hour.
So in a moment, back to Bob Schell, who's in Washington, D.C. All right.
Because we have so many joining us at this hour, here once again from Washington, D.C. is a photo analyst whose name is Bob Schell.
Bob, if you were to give us a sort of a brief rundown, a resume of what you have done, who you have worked for, why you have expertise in this area, I would appreciate it.
Well, I've been involved heavily in photography for more than 30 years, and I make my living these days writing about photography and doing freelance photographic consulting for a large number of different clients, including some of the camera companies.
My original training is in zoology and photography, which gives me a double-edged sword with which to deal with this film.
The film itself has passed the what I call preliminary stage of proving itself to be a valid document produced in 1947 or within two or three years of 1947.
Let me challenge that with this facts, and maybe that'll give you an opening to launching into that.
It says, Art, your analyst has a couple of misconceptions.
One, he says, you cannot authenticate the age of a film by the age of the film stock because unexposed film can last many decades if it's kept in cold storage.
It would be a matter of locating stored film, which seems difficult, but I bet a thorough search would turn some up.
I've read that film left in the Arctic by one of the early expeditions was usable many years later.
Then, too, your expert is forgetting that Kodak never marketed a 16 millimeter nitrate film.
35 millimeter nitrate film was common until the late 40s, early 50s, but Kodak never sold nitrate 16 millimeter because the early acetates were good enough for that purpose.
As far as nitrate, the information that Kodak did make nitrate 16 millimeter film came directly from Kodak, and it has come from several different sources at Kodak.
I have no personal knowledge.
I wasn't around in the 20s.
But I would assume Kodak would know what they did and didn't do.
And they have on a number of occasions said that the film that they made in 27, 16 millimeter and 35, would have Been on nitrate base.
So I'm relying on Kodak for that piece of information.
If Kodak's wrong, then they're wrong.
But that's really not terribly relevant to what we're talking about.
Well, actually, somebody else had asked me a while back if it had been stored in an abandoned salt mine in cryogenic conditions.
And under those circumstances, maybe it would still be pretty good film today.
The person who made this comment is right.
Old film can be used, but the faster the speed of the film, the less likely that is to work, because film is all gradually fogged and sits around by cosmic radiation.
And the higher speed films are much more sensitive to cosmic radiation than the slower films.
That's the only place where you can store something and limit the exposure to cosmic radiation.
But even at that, when you're dealing with a very sensitive film, which this was for its time, it was one of the fastest films made at the time, you're dealing with a situation where after just a few years, the film has built up enough cosmic radiation exposure to show measurable fogging, which this film does not show.
All right, and again, your work for this audience has, at least on a preliminary basis, pinned down the year not to 27 or 67, but to 1947 or 1949, somewhere in that branch.
Now, we cannot prove that the film was exposed and processed in 47, but we can establish within certain parameters that the film was exposed and processed while it was still quite fresh.
So, you know, that adds so much to the credibility of this whole thing, then why in God's name hasn't Fox come to you to extend the story and the credibility of what they've got?
Fox and I have had a sort of a, I would say, rocky relationship on this from the beginning.
I was quite surprised when I saw the TV special the first time because I had been promised repeatedly that I would have a credit, in the end, credit to the film.
But I saw the program, it wasn't there.
Fox has been pushing me to do things faster that I'm comfortable to do them.
This is completely off course for a second, but with the story they told about the crash, if we, for the sake of the argument here, assume this is a valid film and a valid story, I was so saddened at the way humans treated what seemed to be alien creatures, you know, rifle button ahead, that kind of thing, to get the box away.
I guess I'm not surprised by it, but I was saddened by it.
Well, the first time I read the cameraman's transcribed statement, it made me physically sick.
Because here are our badly injured creatures crying out in pain, and they're being hit with rifle butts, and they're having what to them is obviously something very crucial, that they're clutching to themselves tightly, torn away from them by force.
And we don't know what these boxes were they were clutching.
Maybe these were life support systems of some sort.
All we know is that a short time after the one was hit with the rifle butt and its metal box taken from it, that one died.
No, I am respecting his privacy because I've been asked to.
And his story and his name and all of the rest of this will be brought out ultimately in time by the people who are involved in this project if we're allowed to do things properly.
I plan to interview the cameraman quite extensively, face-to-face, in a matter of about two weeks.
And at that time, a lot of these questions people have been asking me to ask the cameraman will be asked.
Crucial questions about the camera equipment and the film itself will be the first on my list.
I'm sure people who are concerned more about the creature than about the film would want to know things like what color was the skin, what color was the blood, things you can't tell from black and white film.
The so-called eyewitnesses to the Roswell autopsies, I'm talking here about the traditional Roswell story, claimed that the creatures that they saw had clear, colorless fluid in their bodies and no blood per se.
Well, I can tell you with some authority that this film and this crash that the cameraman is talking about has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Roswell incident.
About 10 miles southwest of Socorro and a small dry lake bed.
And the dry lake bed has been visited recently, about a month ago, by a colleague of mine who verified that in fact there is a small dry lake bed there, even though it shows up on no maps, not even on USGS maps, and that there's about a 50-foot diameter area where the crash was supposed to be, which has obviously been excavated at some time in the past and filled in with soil from somewhere else.
The very large wound on the leg, which was the only very serious wound that I've discerned, and they talked about in thoughts, they said that that might have been some sort of missile or a projectile or something that would produce that kind of wound.
So that would be consistent then with perhaps having shot it down?
Well, I've always thought with regard to Major Marcel, Army Air Corps, experienced career guy, to not be able to tell the difference between a flying saucer or disc, as he called it, and a weather balloon would be absolutely impossible.
In the extended footage, the little extra bonus they gave us last night, Don from Los Angeles Wants to know what about the they called it a crystal that they pulled out of the torso of this creature.
Yes, I have looked carefully at that because it's a very peculiar thing.
I've single-framed that sequence probably dozens of times studying it because I have been present during autopsies and I have dissected pieces of cadavers and other creatures myself.
And I have no, and this is not a plant, I have no earthly idea what that thing is.
I've never seen anything like it inside of a human body or any animal I've ever seen insected.
I'm told that that particular part is much clearer in the first autopsy, the autopsy we have not seen.
The blood, you said, obviously it's not color film, but with some care, you can look at a grayscale, can you not, and determine something by the relative color of the blood.
There's a team of French researchers right at the moment who are attempting to use a very sophisticated computer program to colorize the film.
The way this computer program works is you take things in the scene that you know the colors of, and you plug that information into the computer, and it extrapolates the colors of the other things from that.
I have had complete and full cooperation from Ray Santilli and the other people at his company, Merlin.
I've had no problems with them whatsoever.
They've been very forthcoming with any information I asked for.
Not able to always supply it as quickly as I would like because they've been so busy themselves because of dealing with people from all over the world calling every two seconds asking for stuff.
But they have gone out of their way to try to be as cooperative as possible.
There was a still photographer present who was shooting while this motion picture cameraman was between roles.
Because he was wearing this protective suit, it took him much longer to change the film in the camera than it normally would have.
And during that gap, the still cameraman was moving in and taking close-up, detailed documentary pictures, some of which we assume, we don't know this for a fact, but we assume some of these would have been in color.
Art, for those who complain about the quality of the film, let us not forget the cameraman said that the reason he held on to the film in the first place was because he knew that he had overexposed it and was going to need, it was going to need to be processed in a particular way.
Well, the thing is that some of these roles of film, the photographer intentionally exposed the film at a higher than normal rating and processed it specially to push the film speed.
And because he was hand processing rather than the machine processing, this is done in sort of an oval-shaped large tank that winds the film from one spool to another by hand.
The density variation within the rolls is quite a bit.
It'll go from very light to very dark within the same roll of film because of this fairly primitive way in which it was processed.
It makes sense, although I think that there is probably factional fighting within the government between factions that want everything to be released and put out on the table in front of us and people who still want to keep it secret.
If the doctors in the first autopsy wore no protective suits, as in the second, were their faces ever visible, sufficiently visible to be able to try to ID them?
In the first autopsy, there is a notepad or something that's held up to the camera that has, it has written on an autopsy performed By Dr. Detlev Bronck.
Well, in some cases, because they don't even know about it themselves, because they haven't really done a really in-depth research effort on the project.
If you owned a film factory, you might, and I put that might in very large letters, you might be able to do that.
But I place the odds of that very low.
And we will have confirming corroborative testing by Kodak fairly soon that will do a chemical analysis of the film and compare it to their records of what they know that the film of that date should have had in it.
These are proprietary records that no one else would have access to.
You know, I think that you can protect the identity of this photographer by setting up some kind of board of control that would look into this, an independent board, but would still protect his identity.
It has already done so outside of the U.S. For some reason, we've had very little coverage of this here in the U.S., whereas it's been covered quite extensively in England, in major newspapers in Germany, in France.
And I don't really understand that because I've seen nothing in the Bible, as I read it, that says that God created intelligent human creatures only once.
Only once on this planet, but it says nothing about other planets.
It appears to me as though this body that is in the film on Fox could possibly be one of these creatures that we hear about that's artificially matured, like a human embryo.
Well, that's really outside of my range of expertise, but it doesn't seem unreasonable.
I've speculated that what we're seeing is a biological robot rather than a biological entity per se, something that's engineered because it has a simplified internal structure, seems to have no digestive organs.
I don't know about that, but I think you may be on to something here, Bob.
It was, or it appeared to be, somewhat simplistic and could have been sort of a half biological, half, I don't know the word mechanical, half technological device.
Anyway, if they had any reasonable, how do we say, reconnaissance of the Earth, then they could have, you know, we just had World War II, and, you know, that was a very, very brutal war.
Certainly, if they had any reconnaissance of us, they would have known we were brutal individuals.
Having known that, then it looks like there would have been some sort of contingency for a crash scenario on their part.
You know, what to do in this situation?
Should we crash?
Should we be shot down?
It seems to me that merely they're laying up against their ship, crying, clutching something.
That would seem to me to be more of a, not a primitive.
And it's quite possible that if we're dealing with creatures who are totally alien to us, they may not have even conceived of the idea that we would be that hostile and been totally unprepared for it.
If a craft were to land today, similar creatures, similar clutching the boxes and all the rest of it, do you think we would treat them with greater deference today than we did then?
And if something were to overfly it and be challenged, I can assure you, it would be shot out of the air if we could.
So, you know, a lot of years have passed, but I'm not sure that much has changed.
Bob, stay right where you are.
We'll be right back with you.
Bob Schell, a photo analyst who's done consulting work for the FBI and a lot of other government organizations, and has closely examined the new footage.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
listening to art bells somewhere inside the night featuring a replay of coast to coast a m from september 4th 1995 good morning if you're just joining us i'm sorry you've missed two very very important hours there's more to go my guest is bob shell he's in washington dc right now he's done consulting work for the fbi uh many other government agencies was once in the cia has examined the film,
the purported crash film, we think from a crash near Socorro, New Mexico, not Roswell.
And there's just been all kinds of breaking news from Bob about this.
One, that he's examined actual imagery, imagery film, and that he has determined that this film was indeed exposed in or near 1947.
That's a big piece of news, not 27 or 67, but 47.
And a lot more about the first alien autopsy, one that is clear, not blurry.
One that had doctors in face masks, not full spacesuits.
All kinds of information.
This has been packed full of it, and there's about to be more, and we'll get back to Bob Schell in Washington, D.C. in just a moment.
Back now to Bob Schell in Washington, D.C. Bob, first of all, thank you for hanging in there.
This is such important stuff.
I know it's after 4 o'clock in the morning back there, I guess.
Bob, in the Fox presentation, both the first and now the second, anytime they took a full-body picture of the purported alien, they put in this little digital scratch out where the genitalia would have been.
You've obviously studied the film that does not have that.
As far as the idea of pregnancy, none of the pathologists who have looked at the footage have thought that they saw any signs of anything resembling pregnancy.
The puffed up abdomen is apparently just post-mortem bloating.
And you were saying that there was actually, or appeared to be, a bandage being put on one of them, indicating, obviously, as I said, you don't put a bandage on a cadaver.
There's something that fascinated me about what you're talking about.
Well, I was wondering, is the possibility that that life support, supposedly the scientists would have known at that time, that's probably what it was that they were clinging to, could it be possibly secretly stored somewhere today behind lock keys?
I have, I always thought it was mythology, but I've got a tape of Mike Murphy at KCMO in Kansas City who interviewed Barry Goldwater.
And in Barry Goldwater's voice, and I've played it several times in the last week, Barry Goldwater says he asked Kurt LeMay about Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, General LeMay.
General LeMay replied to him in four-letter words that nobody can repeat and said, don't you dare ever ask me about this again, ever.
To me, that lends quite a bit of credit.
I always thought that was some sort of urban legend, but I've got it in Goldwater's words.
Well, you know, in investigating that this is a humanoid-type creature, we don't know if it's alien, we don't know a lot of things, but a lot of experiments have been done on humans and diseases and so forth and radiation or whatever.
I just wondered if there's been any thought on could it have been created in some way here on Earth.
Well, my answer to that would be no, because while you might certainly damage a body with radiation, you're not going to cause it to grow six fingers and six toes, to the best of my knowledge.
Well, there's a tremendous amount of interest in this because a lot of the people in various government agencies and government contracting agencies know that something is there.
They've heard enough through the pipeline to know that there's something really going on.
But they've been kept out of the loop.
And they see this as a chance to find out what has been going on all this time.
I'm hoping if the person doesn't get too frightened, I'm hoping to talk to somebody this week who may have actually had hands-on experience with these boxes that were taken from the aliens.
What they are is they look like they're about two and a half feet long, about a foot and a half in depth, and maybe two and a half inches in thickness.
And they have on the top surface, I'm assuming the top surface, they have the impression of two hands, two six-fingered hands.
And from what I could see of the footage, and I know you've examined it far more closely than I have, would you describe the sixth digit as in proportion as opposed to a little stub or something?
Do you, this is so incredible, do you feel as though all of this information, as the rest of it comes out, is going to finally blow this thing sky high, or is it going to be absorbed into a culture that has so much information in it now that it's just going to be lost somehow in the noise level?
I hope it does lead to more revelations and lead to bringing out some of these witnesses who have been afraid to come out and talk about what they saw and what they handled and what they worked with, especially the scientists who've been involved for all these years in the reverse engineering project to try to figure out what this stuff was and what could be done with it.
Do you think there's, this again is way out of your field, but do you think there's any evidence as you look at say the last 20 years of the development of our technological culture where you would see a leap point that might suggest something was successfully back engineered and all of a sudden we had microchips or the transistor?
Or is there any point as you look at the development of our technology that would suggest a leap that might have come from somewhere else?
I think the problem was that what we saw was so far ahead of what we had at the time that people really had no idea of what it was they were looking at.
And whether they have yet figured out enough to make any use of any of the technology, I don't know.
Well, you know, I don't want to be mean to him, but I've had a lot of calls like that.
I understand where they originate from, and I understand the why of them.
And I think, Bob, it explains why the government is hesitant to come out and really admit this, because it would be socially, horrendously disruptive, not for Bob Schell, and maybe not for Art Bell, and maybe not for a lot of the callers, but the kind of guy who just called us would absolutely come apart.
One of the problems and one of the possible reasons for all this cover-up also is that the government doesn't really want to admit to us that there are people flying around out there who can come into our most sensitive areas at will and we can't do a darn thing about them.
This is the final half hour, and I'm going to devote it as much as possible to your calls.
Bob Schell is a photo analyst, has done consulting work for the FBI and many other government agencies, has been in the CIA, did a short stint, though not connected to any of this, and has examined the Roswell, now there I go again, the film that shows an autopsy that may have been either Roswell or a crash that occurred near Sapporo, New Mexico.
Now, with regard to the last very angry caller, I've got a pretty good answer, I think, that comes from Grants Pass, Oregon.
And we'll get to that in just a second.
Right now, let me take care of business, and then we'll fly through the final half hour of what has been three hours of very highly packed information about what I consider to be a darn important topic.
And so then I suppose the government experts must gather and say, what do we do?
And I guess they're doing the only thing they can do is simply keep their mouths shut and sit back and watch how this develops.
But if the rest of this comes out and is authenticated by people like yourself, as this first part appears to be, it's calling for a social comment, but I mean, do you think that the glue that holds us together will somehow come unglued?
The way this is developing, and I'm following the story, and if the story was beginning to lead me toward this being a fake, then at some point I would drop it or I'd become disinterested or I'd expose it as a fake.
But the story is going just the other way.
Are you inclined to agree with that?
In other words, each new thing we find out, much of what you've told us tonight, leads us toward thinking it is genuine.
You know, to respond by saying, little men from Mars, give me a break, go back to regular programming, is just a closed mind, a frightened mind.
Okay, sir, I believe the colonel from White Sands that told him to go take the photographs was the project officer for this geographical location at that time.
And I think they'll go a long way in showing that the information is probably still stored in what's called the blue room at the one that Barry Goldwater asked about, right?
Well, one of the first things I did when I got the cameraman's statement and access to some information from the cameraman, which has not been made public yet, was to take the information provided by the cameraman and use it as the basis to file a large number of Freedom of Information Act requests.
I was just wondering what you thought about the possibility that this thing could turn out to be like a 90-day wonder.
I mean, I thought the fall of communism, as we knew it, was fairly earth-shattering, but a lot of the people I knew just didn't think it was that big a deal.
No, it's a pretty good question, Bob, whether this will be a big 90-day wonder and we're all excited about it and then in 90 days it will just fade and go away.
Well, I suspect that the average person, you know, gets up in the morning and eats breakfast and goes to work and does their job and comes home at the end of the day is not going to be directly affected that much by it.
They're still going to go to the same job and still do the same thing and all the rest of that.
So in terms of the basic structure of society, I don't think it's going to change it radically, but the emotional aspect of society may change quite a bit.
And that's something we can't even guess at the implications of at this point.
I'm the blind lady from San Antonio that requested that someone describe the body.
And I was a photographer when I went blind.
I'm fascinated with your guest.
My question really doesn't have anything to do with photography, but since he's had such an opportunity to study the film, has he been able to see if anything about the eyes before they started peeling away anything?
Could he determine what they look like under the lid?
First of all, with regard to what they peeled away, any comments on that, Bob?
It's difficult to see, but they obviously pulled something, some black has kind of a biological feel to it because it's sort of, I don't want to say jelly-like, but jelly-like.
The one possibility someone has suggested is this is something that our people put on the eyes to keep them from drying out prior to the autopsy.
And that is a valid suggestion, although I can't find anybody in the medical community who knows of a use of a material that looks like what we're seeing in this film.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Bob Schell.
Hi.
unidentified
Hi.
You know, considering that the way that some of these visitors were sort of smacked around with rifle butts, I think we're kind of fortunate that their friends didn't come back and try to stage some sort of a rescue mission like we did with Scott O'Grady.
I really would like to see some more information come out about these boxes and these laptops.
They certainly sounded like laptops to me.
And it would sure be nice if some of that technology could be brought into the computer world.
One thing, as I was watching the film last night, it did seem kind of hard to follow the flow of it because there was a lot of editing and all like that.
But I did notice that the color, or at least the gray scale of the skin, seemed to change.
It was sort of a whitish gray in the beginning, and towards the end, the face anyways seemed to be very much darker than that.
And it sort of seems to me that if this is a hoax, that was a real thoughtful touch.
It just lent a whole lot more credibility to the whole thing.
No, I was just wondering, though, if for the first time you were exposed to the entire autopsy, instead of sort of the cut-up segments with the interviews with Stan Winston, very impressive and all the rest of it, very well done, for drama.
a lot of people complained about the way fox did it um and i wonder if they had seen the film without interruption whether they would have been more impressed less impressed or i think i think it would depend on the degree of um of biological knowledge the person has because
So then maybe Fox was not so dumb to interrupt it and introduce an expert, a pathologist, and all the rest of it that they did.
I also think, sir, that if there was a major hole that could be shot in this, NBC or ABC or one of the others would do it and get Fox at the same time.
Wouldn't you?
unidentified
Yeah, I would.
It just seems like, you know, the thing looks like a doll.
When you first look at it, it's kind of hard to believe.
You know, because I was reading one of those alien books and I was reading true stories of this guy and his wife that got snatched up by an aircraft and it was unbelievable to read something like that.
can't believe it.
It's hard to...
So that angry caller, he just better, you know, well, better watch himself because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I would suspect that large portions, if not whole bodies, are in cryogenic storage somewhere and have been used over the years a little bit at the time as our technology advanced so we could tell things about them.
And I'm sure the DNA sequencing, once that became available, would have been applied to tissue samples.
Well, he's right that hunters evolve stereoscopic vision and prey don't.
That's a part of the evolutionary system and always has been.
So you would assume that something with forward-facing stereoscopic eyes evolved from a hunter creature initially, if these are evolved creatures, and we speculated earlier that they may not be.
But the eyes are physically far larger than human eyes.
You're able to make those determinations by measurements of other relevant, the size of other relevant things in the room, the other human beings in the room.
And by superimposing a human skull over the skull of this creature to see that the proportions are quite different and the eye sockets are proportionally much larger.
Now, the implication of that would probably be that these are creatures that, if they are evolutionary development, evolved somewhere with dimmer light than we have.
All right, look, this is a fast developing-breaking story, and it sounds as though in the next few weeks and months, you're going to have a lot of new information, Bob.
Oh, yes.
May I depend on bringing you back on again when that happens?
Well, you are indeed a very brave man to come on to 5 o'clock in the morning with me, which it is coming up on now where you are in Washington, D.C. Bob Schell, it has been a pleasure.
If whatever radio station you're listening to does not carry the entire program, you might give them a call, and I always urge people to do this, and I'll do it again now.
When you do, please be polite.
We have a lot of very, very, what's the right word, loyal fans of the program, and they get exorcised greatly many times when they call radio stations.
So please be nice if you do call.
And I do urge you to call and ask them to carry more of the program.
But by all means, be polite when you do so.
Seem to be a reasonable person when you call.
All right, I'm going to run through some of the rest of the news.
This hurricane sounds awful.
I'm not sure if at this hour we're still on, but I am hereby opening my first time caller line to anybody in the Caribbean.
Anybody in the Caribbean right now and the Caribbean only.
The U.S. Virgin Island chain, which appears to be directly in the way of this very, very large, very large and dangerous hurricane bearing down on them.
I wish I could have done this earlier, and you can certainly depend that I'll be doing it tomorrow.
Unfortunately, by tomorrow, there may be no communication short of a short wave out of the islands.
So if you're in the U.S. Virgin Islands, anywhere in the Caribbean, please call me now at Area Code 702-727-1222.
All right, a lot of people don't know about the geography in the Caribbean.
You say now it's beginning to hit Antigua.
How far is Antigua from you?
unidentified
Antigua is from us probably 100 miles or more.
When I check the coordinates, they started receiving rains early yesterday afternoon, which would give a storm, I think, about 12 to 16 hours away from St. Thomas, Virgin Islands itself.
So they are in the more east-southeastern Caribbean from us.
We are about 70 miles from Puerto Rico.
And if you remember St. Croix, who was hit so hard last time with the storm, they are 40 miles to the south from us.
I understand they are receiving a little more stronger winds than we are at this present time.
I can give you a number of one of the radio stations that is doing a very good job, which is WSTA, and he can probably give you some of the other numbers of some of the other stations.
Tell us a little bit about the island of St. Thomas, the buildings that are on St. Thomas.
Are they built to sustain hurricanes, many of them?
Or is there a lot of very shabby construction?
What do you think?
unidentified
Oh, no, no.
The building construction here is, as a matter of fact, very strong, much stronger than a lot of buildings I've seen pounded by hurricane over the years in the American States.
Because as a matter of fact, I do some building myself and I know the homes are tied with steel from the building in the foundation right up to the roof.
And that's why so many of the buildings continue to stand.
But with hurricane force winds, they come in sort of like a tornado type.
And there's nothing you really can do.
It will rip your roof off.
It would tear the trees down.
It would push the telephone poles or electrical poles down on your home.
And there's really nothing you can do about that.
So what they do is just ask most people to stay indoors, their shelters.
There are some people who live in, you know, like trailer homes.
They get pounded the most.
But most for our part, most of the buildings remain standing.
But because we use galvanized on the roof, the hurricanes sometimes just tear them off.
A funny situation during the Hugo, a hurricane rip, hurricane clips and wood and steel that was bounded together and just twisted it up.
And really there's nothing you really can do, just still.
I would imagine now a lot of people are boarding up windows, that kind of thing.
unidentified
Yes, definitely.
As a matter of fact, most of the people have already boarded up.
There's still a lot of people who haven't done much yet because some can't do much for themselves.
There's a lot of ladies and well, the National Guard and the Red Cross and so on will be going around helping people out, evacuating people who have to be evacuated.
So some of the people haven't experienced it and so they kind of don't know what to do.
But the information coming on the radio is telling you exactly what to do.
I think the weather channel is also giving some good information as to what to put in your pockets if you have to leave, such as your money, you know, your credit cards or whatever.
Roy, I really want to thank you for giving us an update like this.
unidentified
All right.
And the reason why I was up, I was sleeping and trying to get some sleep, and the Red Cross called, and I heard you said you were opening the lines that you were.
That's right.
I just hang up a phone from the people at the Red Cross.
They said, don't come pick me up.
So I heard, so I said, let me call at least if I can get through.
And so I'm going to go down and get the briefing, and they will talk to me and tell me how to probably register people who have to come to the shelter.
And, you know, if there are any other volunteers, we'll shout some volunteers, you know, because at this time, most people are trying to help with their own families.
I will continue to hold this line open for the Caribbean.
That line is now open exclusively for the Caribbean.
And I'll tell you, I've got a Facts here.
This came in at 8 p.m. Pacific time.
Major breaking news at 8 o'clock this evening, KNXT AM Radio reports meteorologists are identifying Luis, the present hurricane in the Caribbean, as being the strongest in 50 years.
Apparently, it is aimed at Puerto Rico and or the U.S. Virgin Island area.
Well, we are very, very fortunate to be able to bring the world together, as you put it.
unidentified
Oh, you sure did.
That was real, and it was so strange.
I heard you at 11 o'clock say you were going to be talking to the Virgin Islands, and I fell asleep, and I just happened to wake up just before the first guy called.
I kept my radio on, and it must have been the vibrations came through to me.
And I just woke up when that first gentleman called by the name of Roy, and it was interesting to listen to them, but pretty spooky for them.
I'll tell you, and I don't mean to exaggerate this or get over-emotional about it, but I've been feeling this, ma'am, for some time.
Things are changing.
The weather patterns are changing.
The storms are going to be a lot worse this year.
And this, I'm sorry to say, is the first really serious example of it.
unidentified
Oh, you're not kidding, because, like, my mother, for instance, is 79 years old.
And, you know, talking to her a couple days, or about a day and a half ago, she said that never in her life has she known so many hurricanes to be coming off of Africa like they're coming this year, and they're just one right after the other.
Are you going to keep calling for as long as you can?
unidentified
Oh, yeah.
Well, last night when I was calling my brother, I called for about two and a half hours before I got through because the line would ring once and then it would say all circuits were busy.
When it begins to get like that, it's really strange.
All circuits are busy going from here to there, but they can still manage to get out from there to here.
unidentified
Exactly.
And I remember, I'm telling you, when Hurricane Hugo came by, it's a very strange feeling to be on a little island and be totally isolated.
Because we didn't have, you know, at our house where I was living, we didn't have electricity for almost three months after that.
So we never got to see TV or anything.
And it was very hard living, you know, after that because, you know, you're just totally cut off from the world, you know, and it's a very strange feeling.
And WSDA stayed right on the air as long as they could.
And everybody that had, you know, battery-operated radios, that was the only kind of communication to find out what was happening.
Have a good morning, and that's why I keep preaching to people about battery-operated radios.
You don't realize what you need until you need it, and then, of course, generally by then it's too late.
But you need to have, I don't care where you are, Midwest, East Coast, hurricane country, earthquake country, you should have some kind of battery-operated radio.
You need to have the minimal survival items around the house, water, a portable water.
You need to have some sort of emergency medical kit.
This is not a guy in fatigues preaching to you about some great war that's coming.
It's just that times are changing.
And things are quickening.
And prudent steps make sense.
So take my advice and get yourself a decent radio, decent flashlight, decent emergency power.
Do what you can do as you can do it.
Be prepared.
You know, the old Boy Scout thing.
On my Caribbean line, you're on the air.
Good morning.
unidentified
Good morning.
This is WSTA calling from St. Thomas, Virgin Islands.
We're having to take a break at the bottom of the hour.
So I'm going to, we'll try and get this straightened out.
And coming out of the break, assuming that he can hold on, and I believe he can, we've got the news director from WSTA, our affiliate in the Virgin Islands, which would appear now to be very nearly the target of one of the very worst hurricanes in 50 years to come through the Caribbean and, of course, head if it continues in the direction it's heading now toward the U.S. mainland.
That would be quite some time yet.
But first, the U.S. Virgin Islands.
When we come back from the break, we'll try and get all this straightened out for you.
We'll get the news director from WSDA on the air.
You're listening to live radio because this radio station cares enough to have live talk radio on.
I'm Art Bell.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
Coast to Coast AM from September
4th, 1995.
Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time, tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from September 4th, 1995.
The hurricane, let's see, the 5 a.m. center of Louis was located near latitude 17.4 north, longitude 61.4 west, or about 35 miles northeast of Antigua and 65 miles north of Guadeloupe.
Louis has slowed now to 9 miles an hour, traveling in the westerly direction.
And here's the part that really disturbs us a little bit.
The gradual turn to the west-northwest is expected later today.
What about, do they say anything with regard to whether they feel it will strengthen, maintain, or what's it doing?
unidentified
Well, they did not say that, but let me read what it says here.
The maximum sustained winds are 140 miles an hour with higher gusts.
Louis remains a powerful category 4 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpskin scale, similar to Hurricane Hugo in 1980.
Little significant change in strength is likely during the next 24 hours.
Our feeling is, knowing, tracking storms before, we've had four or five of them through here, and Hugo was the best lesson we ever had, that if it hits a landmass area, it tends to degrade the storm itself, dissipate it somewhat.
And then as it gets back out over the Caribbean Sea, which is a warm sea, it builds back up again.
So that gives you a general idea.
Now, here's another part of it that we watch here, because many times we've had storms come right up to our doorstep and turn away.
But the winds associated with it that extend out, the hurricane force winds extend outward to 125 miles.
The tropical storm force winds extend out to 200 miles.
Outer rain bands from the hurricane are continuing to spread over the Leeward Islands.
That's us, of course.
And Antigua reported gusts of 76 miles an hour.
And the core of the hurricane with sustained hurricane force winds should spread over the northern Leeward Islands.
The minimum central pressure, by the way, is 942 millibars or 27.82 inches.
Wow.
Here's something that would shake us up, too, because our waterfront is being worked on recently.
Storm tides of 6 to 9 feet with higher values in exposed coves can be expected, and rainfall totals 10 to 12 inches.
What's interesting, Art, is that Hurricane Hugo was a dry hurricane by standards.
This does not appear to be.
It's going to dump some heavy, heavy rain on us.
Virgin Islanders always say we need the rain, but maybe not that much.
But anybody, obviously, in a mobile home or a flimsy structure had better get to a shelter.
unidentified
I think that's what the government is saying, Governor Snyder and the rest of the people of IPMA are telling people.
For instance, I have a directive here, Commissioner of the Department of Property and Procurement, Alvin Davis, directs all drivers of special education vehicles to report to the department's motor pool on St. Thomas and St. Croix, Department of Public Works on St. John immediately.
Education food service workers are asked to report to work.
And a long list of items of that nature so that those people would be available.
We have a long list, too, of shelters that are available.
Most of them are in schools.
Some large school complexes such as St. Anne's Church and Assembly of God, Niske Moravian, a Shadow of the Madia High School in St. Croix Central High School, and a number of locations there too are, of course, set aside for these shelters.
Lee, I know that you're not an expert on this, but we've all been watching the Caribbean and the Atlantic very carefully, and I have never in my life, seen, in my life anyway, seen such a lineup of storms.
Is it reasonable to suggest that the weather seems to be getting more severe?
unidentified
I think you're right, and there's been a lot of speculation here by storm experts and in Miami that the change in the desert in Africa has contributed to that.
There's been a change in the overall global warming, if you may use that, and that has changed the picture.
We can remember in the early days, we'd get a tropical depression storm, and all of a sudden it would be gone, and that was it.
In fact, interestingly enough, here in the Virgin Islands, we have a Hurricane Thanksgiving Day at the end of the season, and a day before that, at the beginning of the season, to pray that a hurricane will not hit us.
We'll all be praying for you, and I mean that, and I want to thank you, and I suppose there's a high probability of communications going down rather rapidly as it closes in on you.
unidentified
I would think, though, Art, I want to just say this, that where that may have happened before, I think the lessons we learned at Hugo have shored up a lot of those areas.
Well, when I said communications going down, I meant telephone communications and lines probably will go down.
unidentified
Well, the governor assured us that he has satellite communication telephones, you know, those little ones that he'll be able to contact people in the States and let them know, Washington and the like.
He's already indicated that he's talked to the FEMA people.
In fact, have you got just a moment to hear the governor for a second?
He had his people, and he was trying to make sure that everyone knew exactly what was happening.
The President reads.
The Honorable William Gickson, President of the United States, the White House.
Dear Mr. President, following the conversation with your Director of FEMA, Mr. James Lee Witt, and having received the most recent weather report at 11 a.m.
Tuesday, September 4th, I am sending this letter in support of immediate response of an emergency declaration if Hurricane Lee hits the United States Virgin Islands.
The force of the hurricane winds are more than 140 miles per hour.
The tropical storm force winds extend outward 200 miles, which suggests a heavy blow on the island if it continues on the same course.
The Director of FEMA has assured me that the Mobile Emergency Response Team is on the alert and he is preparing his agency for expedition assistance to the territory.
All agencies of our government, including our National Guard, is in preparedness and carrying out their functions as per our emergency plan, waiting the arrival of the storm.
On behalf of all of the people of the Virgin Islands, I wish to thank you in advance for your expeditious declaration emergency with the appropriate assistance would be needed.
Voice there, the governor of the Virgin Islands.
That was a letter the governor sent to President Clinton asking for the declaration of emergency and also telling the people of the Virgin Islands that his agencies were in place and that the storm itself, as it comes to us, we are prepared.
But one thing I wanted to say, aside from that one lunatic that called from Oregon, wherever it was, the guy who was panicking, I think that back in the 40s and the 50s, there could have been a credible argument for some concern about social disorder.
People had a much more simplistic belief system in those days, I tend to think.
If you look at the genre of science fiction movies and written materials, they always sort of showed alien visitations being some sort of evil invasion type of thing, that sort of thing.
However, in today's culture, it's very different.
You know, you have ET and R2D2 and all that kind of thing.
It's seen in a much more benign light.
And I think the vast majority of the population would tend to see this in a more positive way.
However, the one reason that I could see where military intelligence people and folks of that ill would still want to covet this information, if such is true, is because think of this.
If they have even a small bit of remnants of some kind of craft, you know, bits of burned metal, or for that matter, even just a chunk of a spacecraft with its propulsion system intact, etc., imagine the military potential.
In other words, this is technology that would be coveted.
We like to think that we are in control of our skies, the space above the United States, certainly our land, and our immediate atmosphere, and to not be in control is something the military just could never admit.
I agree with you, but in parallel to that, also consider that this is like a Trump card they want to keep up their sleeve.
In other words, if there were ever another major military confrontation that would require technological prowess beyond what we currently have already shown publicly, this would be like the ultimate Trump card.
If we had some sort of anti-gravitational propulsion system or whatever, this is the kind of thing that they wouldn't want to admit to until they really had to expose it for some sort of crucial need.
At this point, with the amount of evidence that is built because of the Fox show, because of Bob Schell, even perhaps more importantly, Bob Schell, and all the rest of it now, anybody who would laugh and chuckle and chortle at this, I don't know about them.
I really don't know about them anymore.
I know there are a lot of people who do, but it seems to me at this stage, it only reveals a very myopic way of thinking to continue to laugh.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
unidentified
Hey, all right.
About the 25th time the phone ring finally picked up.
Okay, there is a passage in the Bible that incidentally is the one that, in my opinion, does rule out reincarnation.
It's a passage where Jesus says, it is appointed for each man to die but once.
Now, you can see a connection with reincarnation there.
I asked the minister how that connected to aliens, and he said, well, if God created life somewhere else, that would mean that Jesus would have to go there, become mortal, and die on the cross the same as he did here, and then he would have to die more than once.
And that, as far as he said, is the scriptural basis for it.