Art Bell

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Sept. 3, 1995 - Art Bell

01:23:33

Dreamland with Art Bell - Ancient Egypt - John Anthony West

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21:47

john anthony west

42:11

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not met, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		Good evening.
		Another Sunday.
		Another Dreamland.
		It's going to be a good one.
		Linda Howe is still in Britain.
		she's got new information on the santilli film the one to be repeated i might add with new footage here in the usa tomorrow night the one that purports to be of an alien Shredding very nearly.
		It's serious stuff, and she'll have a new report for us as well as a guest herself.
		That will be followed by John Anthony West, who is not an archaeologist, but an Egyptologist.
		And we've got all kinds of fascinating things to talk with him about.
		And so it's going to be a very, very interesting Dreamland, as would be the case with our newest affiliate, KVEG, in Las Vegas.
		Last-minute, apparent technical difficulties are going to prevent them from airing the program this week, but trust me, it will be on as should be next week.
		So there you've got it, and we'll get on to it all in a moment.
		I want to remind my audience of two very, very important things.
		One is our deadline for subscription to the newsletter.
		The deadline for ordering that newsletter is midnight Pacific time tonight, or when this program goes off the air.
		You don't, so that's it.
		I mean, if you want it, you've got to begin dialing now, and you've got to get through by the end of the program.
		To order the newsletter, simply call 1-800-917-4278.
		1-800-917-4278.
		In addition, I have new photographs available on our bulletin board as of right now.
		One is entitled Roof, R-O-O-F.G-I-F.
		It is a picture of something indescribable above a roof with a man standing on the roof.
		Download it.
		You tell me what it is.
		The second photograph is simply entitled Alien.gif.
		It is a photograph of an alien, apparently also in some sort of autopsy situation, it would appear.
		And the third is entitled Earth.gif.
		All brand new, all on our bulletin board.
		You can get into our bulletin board by calling area code 702-727-1709.
		702-727-1709.
		Linda Howe coming up in just one moment.
unidentified		And the first thing we try to find out is if the project really is from 1947, because I mean, I visit the major points, visit the connection to the UFO crash, and here the corro, which is the match what happened at June 1st, 1947.
		The first checking was with Kodak, and Kodak was informed about the geometric gear marking on the print, and Kodak Hollywood replied to Waitentile on June 28 of this year that the original negative stock was definitely manufactured in Rochester, New York in either 1947 or 1967.
		Now, to say for sure which of the two possibilities we have, you have to make a chemical analysis because in the 1950s, Toda changed the film material, the film stock, from what we had before, which was acetate propionate material, to triacetate and the double chemical terminate for safety film.
		And so the important thing was to check out the original material.
		So Ray Pentilly was willing to give a piece of the original 16 millimeter autopsy film with images on it to Bob Bell, a certified FBI photo technical consultant.
		And I just brought four days ago the summary, the full report by Bob Spell.
		And he came to the conclusion that it is definitely without a shadow of a doubt 1947 original film.
		And more than that, he wrote that you can use it only, you could use this type of film only for two years.
		So it must have been exposed between 1947 and 1949.
		Wow.
		And it would be impossible to take unexposed super double-edged film from 1947 and then expose it today and get any sort of usable image.
		So we can clearly exclude any photographic fake or photography.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me be clear, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you able to hear me all right?
unidentified		I hear you perfectly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fine.
		You're saying then the film was actually exposed.
		In other words, they gave a clip with imagery on it as opposed to just leader, and that proves with chemical analysis that it was exposed between 1947 and 1949.
		Is that correct?
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		This is absolutely correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One thing, Michael, that many people are asking about here in the States is that many of the old films of that kind have little lines and streaks and blurbs in them, and they did not notice that in this film.
unidentified		Because the film was never, never run through a projector.
		Actually, the cameraman developed it and kept it, and it never run through a projector.
		And another thing is, but of course, wait until he chemically cleaned the material before he projected it on beta cam material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		Well, that would answer that as well.
		This is beginning to look more and more like the real thing.
unidentified		I fully agree with you, and this is what we try to do.
		I'm an independent journalist and Europa researcher, and I started to contact race until in February when I thought about it the first time, and my intention was really to find out if this is true or not.
		And I was very skeptic after I saw the film the first time on May the 5th in the May the 5th viewing.
		And my intention was to verify or to check out the cameraman claim.
		And one part of it was that in July, I went to New Mexico and I tried to locate the crash site, the actual crash site, according to the description of the cameraman.
		And just to check him out, how good he knows the area, and to see if he finds any traces of any military operation, retrieval operations.
		And what happened is first I got a very vague description by Ray Santilli, then I asked Ray, who always was very cooperative, to call the cameraman and give me a more detailed description.
		And after about five hours, we finally reached the cameraman, and I called him back, and I got a very accurate description, and I followed the description.
		And it all pointed to an area southwest of the Corona, New Mexico.
		And after I reached the location, I found exactly what the cameraman described.
		And I called Wayston-Hilly again.
		And Waystant Hilly called the cameraman again.
		And through the teleconnection, I communicated with the cameraman and got landscape features verified, like a big rock gate, like a big boulder on the top of one of the hills around.
		And he said, the crash happened on the northern shore of a small dry lake bed.
		Actually, we found this small dry lake bed.
		And on the northern shore, we have an excavated and filled up area of about 50 to 60 feet in diameter.
		Clearly, somebody removed something and filled it up with soil from another area, which clearly has a different color, a different substance.
		You don't find bushes there.
		You don't find big stones in it.
		It clearly is an excavated area.
		I have a background in archaeology and anthropology, so I know what I'm talking about.
		And I will go back to this area when I come back to the USA and this fall.
		And we plan actually an archaeological dick.
		We want to find out the profile of the filled-up area, how deep it goes, if we find any tactile, because the cameraman said the object was so hot, but it turned sand into glass.
		Sand was actually melting.
		And we tried to find any tactile, and we tried to find traces of a military operation, skin cancer, whatever.
		Maybe we found something datable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Might we have the name of the FBI analyst one more time, please?
unidentified		Bob Sell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bob Schell.
unidentified		Bob Sell.
		And actually, he is also an editor of many major photo magazines all over the world.
		He is the author of 14 special books on photography, including the Canon Compendium and the most important book about Canon cameras.
		He is editor and photo-technical advisor of Cutterbag, Photopro, Outdoor Nature Photography, and many other photographic magazines.
		Actually, he started in the Smithsonian Institution in Washington working for them, and then he specialized on technical photography.
		He is a professional photographer, and he is, especially, the photo-technical advisor and photo technical advisor of the FBI and other government agencies in Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Michael, we're very short on time, but you have given us big news, and especially just the day before it is to be rebroadcast here with new footage.
		We don't know what kind of new footage, here in America on Fox.
		So I want to hear.
		I would like to thank you, especially for being there at 3 o'clock in the morning.
		And if you would put Linda on for us for just a moment, once again.
unidentified		Of course, and thank you very much, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Michael.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Linda, that's what I would call breaking news.
unidentified		Yes, I think so, and I think that things are going to continue to unravel and unfold in this story because while we were here in this weekend, we were receiving information, and I think it's going to continue over this week.
		And I would say to everyone, here is a good example of how everyone seems to be rushing to different areas of judgment, either for or against.
		And right now, more and more information seems to be supporting that there's something highly unusual about this film.
		And what none of us know is what exactly is this humanoid?
		Which crash did it come from?
		The cameraman himself in his own statement sent to Centilly says that he was taken to a site 10 miles southwest of Socorro, between Socorro and Magdalena, not at the Corona Roswell crash site.
		This is not saying that there's not a Corona Roswell site.
		What this is implying is more than one crash, more than one collection of bodies.
		And my guess is, are that over the next 12 months, at some point, more footage is going to be released, possibly of a completely different type of alien.
		We may be in the beginning of the cracking, of finally the cracking on this crash and retrieval stuff.
		But what is so odd to all of us is the first humanoid out in television and everything else has six fingers and six toes, and it doesn't match any of the other descriptions in government documents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed odd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, I've got to go, but I assume next week it will be from Italy, is that correct?
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Linda, I've got to get out of here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have a good flight.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for the big breaking news.
unidentified		Yeah, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, Linda, and to your guest as well, thank you.
		And that is news.
		We'll be back.
		You don't have to put up with it.
		What am I talking about?
		Hard, foul, water.
		That's right.
		Hard water gets into everything, fouls it up.
		You know what I mean?
		The white, scaly stuff that sticks through about everything, including even your hair, your skin.
		Yell.
unidentified		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you yell?
unidentified		The weather, the news, whatever.
		And people could hear this?
		Not at first, but then I started using a megaphone, a big one, people could hear for blocks.
		So what if people didn't want to hear what you were saying?
		Some people expressed that concern, so then I invented something for that.
		And that was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Earplug, but people preferred radio.
unidentified		So figure.
		Now it's everywhere in cars and elevators strapped to their heads.
		Music news, comedy, talk shows.
		I had the very first talk show yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, people would yell up at me from the sidewalk.
unidentified		We discussed every issue of the day.
unidentified		And I'd yell back, mind your own business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Entertaining, let me tell you, people loved it.
		Radio, putting the world in your...
		Go to your library, get some materials, study.
		When you're ready to order, call the people at Help Naturally.
		Here's the number.
		1-800-856-1119.
		Take it down.
		1-800-856-1119.
		Help Naturally now.
		For many years in this country, there has been a great debate about Barry Goldwater and whether he actually spoke to General LeMay with regard to UFOs and something held at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
		It's almost been an urban legend.
		Thanks to a friend of mine at KCMO in Kansas City, Mike Murphy, who just happened to have an interview with Barry Goldwater.
		We got Barry Goldwater's response to exactly that question.
		You need wonder no longer.
		Get close to your radio.
		It's a little difficult to hear.
		It was one of those interviews done with the tape recorder down in the middle of the table.
		But there is no mistaking who it is.
		I want you to listen to the following very carefully.
		An interview of Barry Goldwater.
		Listen to what he has to say about General LeMay.
unidentified		But there's all these conspiracy stories now that are coming out.
		And the greatest one of all, now I don't know whether this is folklore, whether this is true, but I've been a flying saucer fan since I was a little kid.
		I used to know Major Donald Kehoe.
		His mother used to live next door to us.
		So back in the 40s, he came out with Flying Saucers Are Real and all these books.
		So I'm a little kid, and I've been with this all my life.
		And maybe this is folklore, but the story is you tried to find something out about the Roswell crash.
		No, it's not true.
		I know that at Grant Pattersonsville, the Air Force had, and I have to assume it's still there, had a room I think they called the blue room of the green, and in which was assembled all the information that the Air Force had put together on UFOs.
		He said, I called my friend Kurt LeMay one day.
		And I said, what about this, Kurt?
		Can I see the stuff in there?
		Or he cussed me out in every poor little way.
		Do you remember what he said?
		I can't repeat it.
		He said, don't ever ask me that again, and don't ever talk about it to anybody.
		I don't want to hear you ever mention it.
		Now, I can't say, I won't sit here and say I believe in you, Bulls, but I can tell you this.
		There's about two billion planets in this universe that we know about.
		How many other universes are there?
		We don't know.
		Nobody can tell me that this is the only planet of two billion on which there are living things like people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well there you've got it.
		In the words of Barry Goldwater, no more an urban legend.
		Now you know he said it.
		Imagine that as a response to a U.S. senator from a U.S. Air Force general.
		Imagine that.
		John Anthony West is a writer and independent Egyptologist who has been studying and writing about ancient Egypt for nearly three decades.
		He is the foremost exponent of the symbolist school of Egyptology, which sees and demonstrates an ancient sacred science where modern academics see mainly just superstition.
		His work, redating the great Sphinx of Giza via geology, proving it must be at least 10,000 years old or older, was the subject of a 1993 NBC special, The Mystery of the Sphinx, hosted, you'll recall, perhaps, by Charleston Heston.
		Now, Charlton Heston, that was viewed by 30 million people.
		Now, this was one of the most successful documentaries ever shown, has escalated into a heated international scholarly controversy.
		He won an Emmy in 1993 for Best Research for his work on the video and the show itself, which was actually nominated for Best Documentary Program.
		The BBC subsequently produced its own version of that show For its prestigious and popular science series, Time Watch.
		Retitled Age of the Sphinx, the show recorded the second highest ratings of any Time Watch episode, generated still further controversy in the English press.
		His nonfiction books include Serpent in the Sky, The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt, a detailed examination of the symbolist interpretation of Egypt, The Traveler's Key to Ancient Egypt, and The Case for Astrology.
		He's also written a book of short stories, a novel, plays, a film.
		His essays and criticism have appeared in the New York Times.
		He is presently at work on a book devoted to his work on the Great Sphinx.
		Now, here is John Anthony West.
		John, welcome to the program.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hi, thank you, Art.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Pleasure to be on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in Athens, New York, I guess, eh?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		That's right, Athens, New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, how in the world did you get started or even interested in all of this?
unidentified		Well, it wasn't actually...
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I initially started out as a writer, novelist, playwright, screenwriter, and so on.
		Got very interested while I was living in Spain back in the early 60s in ancient science, ancient religion, mysticism, and so on.
		Had a novel published in England and got very friendly with my editor, who was a Cambridge-trained mathematician, turned publisher.
		And we were drinking at a pub one day, and the subject of astrology came up.
		And it was a subject I'd studied in some depth, but it wasn't my favorite subject.
		Anyway, the subject of astrology came up.
		He said, that's a lot of rubbish.
		And I said, well, actually, it isn't.
		There's a certain amount of evidence out there.
		And if you collected it direct and indirect, you'd actually have a case.
		And he said, well, is that really true?
		Let me see.
		So I brought some stuff in.
		And he said, well, gee, I'm not convinced, but this is interesting.
		Would you do a book on it?
		And I basically said, well, yeah, you pay me some money.
		I'll do a book on anything.
		Being flat-throat, like most writers at the time.
		And then all of a sudden I had to get professional about this interest.
		And in doing the research for that book on astrology called The Case of Astrology, originally my first nonfiction book, published in 70 or 68 or something like that, I came across the work, the Egyptological work of R. A. Schwaler-DeLubitz,
		a French philosopher with the unpronounceable name, and just stopped what I was doing and spent a year in the British Museum researching Schwaler, who at that time hadn't been translated out of French, included a chapter, which really didn't belong in the astrology book that had interested me so much, on Schwaler's symbolist Egypt in that first astrology book.
		And then that generated a lot more interest because, as I said, Schwaler hadn't been translated at the time.
		And so publishers came to me and said, well, would you do a book on Schwaler and this interpretation of Egypt?
		Well, that interested me more than the astrology, actually.
		And I said, you bet.
		And, you know, another five years to get professional in that, study my classical Egyptology as well.
		And then that sort of took over.
		And most of the last 25 years, one way or another, have been devoted to Egypt, with, you know, some time in between to get some stories and plays written and things of that sort.
		But mostly Egypt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I take it your view of the age of Egypt is very different than that of the traditional geologists or Egyptologists.
		Is that correct?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes and no.
		Dynastic Egypt, the Egypt that everyone knows about, of the temples and the tombs and so on, no, that basically arises around 3000 BC when the Egyptologists and the archaeologists say it arose.
		However, the Sphinx, and it's complicated, but the present pyramid actually almost certainly dates from when they're supposed to date, about 2,500 BC.
		However, they are built, they either replace, or in one case, certainly are superimposed upon earlier structures.
unidentified		And the strength, of course, which is central to this whole investigation, dates almost certainly from this hour of Art Bell is recorded and rebroadcast at this time,
		Oh, it's a little car.
		Oh, no.
		Talk with Art Bell.
		First time callers to Dreamland, dialed 702-727-1222.
		This is Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		My guest is John Anthony West.
		We'll be back to him in just a moment.
		The deal is almost over.
		If you would like to get in on Eupho Facts now to our guest, John Anthony West.
		John?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
		John, give us a little primer.
		Those of us who don't know a lot about it, what is the sphinx?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		What is the sphinx of this gigantic statue, 240 feet long?
		I think it's the largest statue on Earth, 66 feet high, carved out of solid bedrock, out of the limestone.
		It's the body of a lion and the head of a human being, usually assumed to be male, but maybe not.
		Well, could be female.
		And there it is, a titanic statue.
		Hard to imagine anybody doesn't actually know, hasn't seen pictures of the Sphinx, what it signifies, what it's meant to represent, big arguments about the ancient Egyptians themselves never.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you lean towards?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mine, particularly in the work that's come out in the last couple of years, not just our work, but work of Robert Boval, a Belgian engineer who's done all of this interesting astronomical work around the pyramids and Sphinx, and our dating, It seems to put us back probably around 10,000 B.C., unless it's the processional cycle before that.
unidentified		But it's...
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the body of the lion, hard to imagine that that's not the sign of Leo.
		And the head of human being, some people think it represents the cusp between Leo and Virgo.
		Another way of looking at it is that it represents the axis of Leo and Aquarius.
unidentified		I'm more inclined to that myself.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		But even without the astronomical, astrological interpretation, symbolically it would seem to represent the lion is in all, the great cat is always a symbol in every culture in the Mayans and the Indians, so and in India, the tiger and the Mayans, the jaguar.
		The great cat is always a solar symbol and seems to represent the manifest power of the sun.
		And the human head would seem to be the ability of the physical to become spiritual, in other words, to unite again with the celestial or divine source.
		And so that seems symbolically the Sphinx could be that it was a kind of a metaphysical teaching in and of itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, there is where I want to interrupt you for a second.
		That was evident.
		As we have evidence of the Egyptians remaining today, is there anything to indicate that the Egyptians recorded anything from any previous civilizations as we are now digging into and trying to record what we can find out about the Egyptians?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, depending on how you look at things, you see, the Egyptians themselves never recorded history.
		I mean, it's a very peculiar thing that we know as much as we do about Egypt from all of those temples and films and so on, and yet there's virtually not a shred of history.
		Mostly, the Egyptians are concerned with what my friend Graham Hancock in Fingerprints of the Gods calls the science of immortality.
		I mean, the Egyptians weren't really interested in facts the way that we are.
		The Egyptians were interested, basically, in the meaning of our human existence, which is, from their point of view, the return to the source.
		And so what Graham calls the science of immortality is what all of those temples and all of those tombs are dedicated to.
		So by inference, there are kind of hints and mentions of earlier times that kind of surface through the text if you read them carefully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's what I was leading to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As we record today on computers, today on paper, and the Egyptians recorded on stone or into stone and on tablets, is there the possibility that a previous civilization of some sort did not record as we understand recording, but was more of a metaphysical kind of civilization that may have communicated directly without words as we know them?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's also possible, but I think more likely is that they didn't give a damn about what we call facts.
		I mean, it doesn't really matter.
		You know, who cares about history?
		What matters is what you do with your own life, this moment, on a day-to-day basis.
		And I'm inclined to think that that was more their focus, although they did write into things, and this is this newest work, just in the last five years, Robert Voval and other people are doing this work.
		They wrote it in myth and in symbol and in astronomy, basically.
		I mean, things are astronomically aligned.
		And one of the ways in which we're able now, not just our work is geological, but the Ms. Voval's work, which is astronomical, showing that temples and pyramids and so on were aligned very, very precisely to certain stars and star systems and constellations at certain periods of time.
		And there's still more work coming out.
		I mean, it's all breaking now.
		It's funny.
		We were talking earlier how things are suddenly happening in such a barrage that you can't keep up with them.
		Whereas 20 years ago, it'd be a bit here and a bit there, and you always wondered what was found and what wasn't.
		All of a sudden, there's a ton of information coming through.
		And now, with the astronomy, it's getting clear that if you read the old texts correctly, what looked like funny stories and myths being told, if you read it correctly, you see that very often there's quite precise scientific information, often astronomical information.
		But to what end, why that astronomical information was so important to them, that to me is one of the big $64,000 questions out there.
		Why should this very slow shift around the zodiac have been of such paramount importance to the ancients?
		In other words, why should they build a pyramid in such a way that it's aligned precisely to the cardinal points and drill a shaft?
		I mean, I can't imagine how much work it takes to build one of these shafts that go through the whole core body of the pyramid.
		Hundreds of feet, exactly, precisely aligned to zero in on the stars making up the belt of Orion at 2450 BC.
		Why should they do such a thing?
		Obviously, it's some real significance to them.
		In other words, they've got to know something that we don't know, and it seems to me...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's already a faxed question for you, actually.
		Here I have some.
		Edgar Casey spoke of a tomb located beneath the feet of the Sphinx.
		Edgar said that it contained the Atlantean Library.
		I wonder if you could shine any light on that.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I can shine a lot of light on that.
		It's not a tomb, actually.
		It's a chamber.
		And there is such a chamber there.
		Our seismograph found it, and using a much less precise method of investigation, the Japanese team before us also found some sort of an anomaly there.
		But our seismograph, we had a chance to do some pretty detailed work, show that there's very definitely a pretty substantial chamber, about 9 by 12 meters.
		That's what, 45 feet by, no, 40 feet, something like that by 30 feet, something of the sort, under about 15 feet of bedrock between the paws of the sink, exactly where Casey said it was.
		Now, our next big move is, I mean, this is part of our video.
		The whole world wants to know what's in that chamber, including us.
		But so far, we haven't been able to get permission to go look into it.
		And, I mean, really, we wouldn't do that.
		I mean, we're not archaeologists.
		We're geologists, renegades, basically.
		But, you know, at least a team of archaeologists, either theirs or ours, could look into that.
		And prior to looking, all you have to do is drill a hole through the bedrock and kick in a fiber optic camera and see if there's something there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is somebody going to get an opportunity, do you think?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, we hope so.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		You can imagine that, I mean, we're basically, we're upsetting the whole apple cart of ancient history, and so the people who make a living selling apples aren't too happy to have us around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, you know, it's solid stuff.
		We're dealing with highly credentialed geophysicists and geologists, and it's all done according to standard operating procedure.
		And, of course, it's very public now.
		Millions of people have seen this, and everybody wants to know what's in that chamber.
		So I'm kind of hoping that we can get, if not necessarily, some allies over there, at least people who recognize that we really are doing things according to standard operating procedure.
		And if there's something in there we'd like to know, and it's of interest not just to us, but to them as well, and to the whole world.
		And so we'll see.
		But in fact, with or without the library of Atlantis in that chamber, we're in fact quite certain that if we can get back there with our seismographs and all of our equipment, and there's a whole bunch of there now, dating techniques where you can use the isotopic dating, you can date stone in a somewhat analogous way to the way you date organic material with carbon dating.
		Whether or not that technique is good enough to give you thousands of years rather than geological billions of years, we don't know yet either.
		But the point is that there's a lot.
		Even just a couple of months over there, it wouldn't even be very expensive to mount such an expedition.
		We're sure we'd come up with a lot of very, very interesting information.
		And as I said, the chamber is there exactly where Casey said it was.
		And curiously enough, some of those nasty reviews that came up following our show said that Wes is completely discredited because he mentions Edgar Casey.
		The fact that Casey, in fact, predicted the chamber right where there is a chamber.
		I mean, Casey is bringing this information, I mean, then called, what, mediumship, but now called transchanneling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I follow Gordon Michael Scallion.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And very closely, he's been on the program many times, and he receives many of the same sorts of criticisms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, his predictions are eerily correct.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yep, some of them, 80-some odd percent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a pretty good batting average.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Is it really as good as that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's really as good as that, yep.
		And Casey predicted it.
		You say it is there.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, I mean, there's no, again, you know, the seismographs don't channel.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		No argue with the seismographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
		All right.
		If we should find, now this is all way into speculation, but suppose we found the Library of Atlantis.
		What would you imagine it might contain?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		God, I can't imagine.
		I mean, let's face it, if it were in a language, almost certainly we wouldn't know that language unless it's some early form of hieroglyph or something like that.
		I mean, nobody knows who invented the Egyptian hieroglyphs or where they stemmed from or whatever.
		So if they're written, if they're written, we're in serious trouble because somebody's got to go around and decipher them.
		I would rather hope that it would be some sort of mathematical or technological something or another that would reveal itself by measure and geometry and number because that would, you know, that might not tell us a history, let's say, or a story of what there was, but it might reveal to us in the more universal language, the language of mathematics and geometry, something of that past civilization.
		But from my point of view, anything that was demonstrably and provably of that kind of antiquity would simply be what's needed to blow the whole, to blow the cover, I'd say, of the whole Church of Progress,
		which is one of my chief interests, really, is great if we had the actual history of Atlantis, but as far as I'm concerned, one of the most important things is simply to blow up once and for all the arrogance of modern humanity that thinks it can get away with the stuff it's doing to this planet, to individuals and to people under the guise of science and scholarship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you then say that?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		That could be discredited.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		That would be a very good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, yes, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if it contained that kind of information, John, I don't know how cynical you are, but do you think it would be allowed out?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't know.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		It depends.
unidentified		You see, a lot of people say this because you...
unidentified		And it is on the leading edge of technology for that particular period of time.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you know the thing the way I do, you know, I mean, it's not as though it's there in public view.
		For example, you can shut down the pyramid, which in fact has been done periods of time over the last few years, for months at a time, not let anybody in, do all kinds of stuff in secret, and God knows what they'd ever find, because that they could conceal.
		The thing's not so easy.
		I mean, if they've got a team out there and they're going to drill holes, they're in public view of the whole wide world, including all of my pals or the camel drivers and the guards and people around.
		And, you know, it's not a big deal to drill a hole and stick a fiber off the camera in there.
		But I'm inclined to think that if they were doing anything secretly, there's a good chance that maybe we'd find out.
unidentified		Otherwise, yeah, otherwise they might well not tell anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, if it was information that was basically telling us we're going down the same end road that others have gone down previously, very quickly headed that way, there would be a very strong, strong force which would not want to change direction radically, but continue down the same profitable road we're on right now for those who are making the great profit.
		Hold on one moment, John, and I'll be back with you in just one moment.
		This is Dreamland.
		If you feel about the tomb of Ramses, is there something new or some new discovery surrounding the tomb, John?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, this is yes and no.
		I mean, obviously, this is a major tomb of the sons of Ramesses II, who was the great hero of the new kingdom.
		Supposedly, I think, 50 or 60 of his sons, he was a very prolific individual, that Ramesses.
		I mean, it's one of the great ironies of modern history that, or of modern advertising, that Ramesses, who had supposedly, I think, 66 wives and 190 children, had a condom named after him.
		But there's not as an avenue for you.
		Anyway, Ramesses, this is a huge tomb.
		I mean, it gives you interesting the Valley of the Kings, where they honeycombed every inch of this over the course of 100 years, suddenly divulges what seems to be the biggest, one of the biggest tombs ever discovered.
		What they find in there, in other words, if everything's been rifled, then no.
		I mean, interesting, historically, here you have a great tomb that, you know, with inscriptions on the walls, presumably, it's not going to teach them anything new.
		If they come in, if they come, if they find any bit or piece of it that's unplundered, well, then they might come up with all kinds of marvelous, who knows, gold, jewelry, and things of that sort, you know, similar to perhaps common tomb.
		They don't seem to think that there's much chance of that, from what I understand.
		From my point of view, even if they found that, well, that's more of the same and it's very interesting historically.
		It doesn't teach us anything new.
		To me, the interesting thing would be a text on astronomy or a text on mathematics or something like that.
		Well, who knows?
		I mean, you know, things are coming up all the time.
		So it's certainly a major discovery and something of intense interest, but I'd be surprised if it took our knowledge of Egypt any deeper or further that aspect of things, particularly the depth rather than the extent that interests me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John.
		Hold on.
		We'll be right back to you.
		Rest for about four moments.
		When we come back, we're going to open the phone lines.
		So get ready.
		Questions about Egypt or earlier civilizations?
unidentified		they come next.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Simply pass it to you as the network passed it to me.
		Art, it says, just a reminder about the newsletter deadline.
		Sunday's Dreamland, now, in other words, is going to be the last time that people can order the October issue of the newsletter.
		Just as, well, that doesn't relate, that was coast.
		Remember, the issue will contain the photo of Halebop, the comet, a photo of Max, the crystal skull, and a large color photo of your studio, my studio, and a dynamite interview with Dr. John Mack from Harvard regarding alien abduction syndrome, among many other interesting items.
		Also, our subscription price increase goes into effect December 1st.
		In other words, call now.
		Now, my guess would be, it's just a guess, I don't guarantee it, that throughout the night tonight, they will take orders for the newsletter, but I guarantee you when dawn breaks, that's it.
		They couldn't get them into the computer before morning, so I'm making an assumption here.
		I would be dialing right now.
		Our newsletter is $29.95 per year.
		And you can get it by calling right now, as fast as your little fingers can move, 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		Now, back to our guest, John Anthony West.
		And John, I've got one question for you, and then we'll go to the phones.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The question is the following.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is man evolving or devolving?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		I cannot say that I can answer it with assurance.
		All I can do is give you my opinion.
		In one sense, I would say evolving in the sense that the processes of life are organic and universal.
		In other words, everything is born, goes through, you know, becomes an infant and then a toddler and then a child and then adolescence and then maturity and then finescence and death and renewal and so on.
		So I would think that what applies to the individual applies to the race and applies to the planet, the galaxy, and so on.
		Now, is a healthy six-year-old who becomes a drugged adolescent evolving or devolving or simply not taking advantage of opportunities That are presented.
		I think with us, we're in a big fix.
		When you look at ancient civilizations, the further back you go, I mean, this is these people didn't think the way we do.
		I mean, they didn't have our kind of terrible problems.
		They lived in a different level of serenity and accomplishments than ourselves.
		I mean, we're very, very clever, but incredibly destructive and obviously in a state of tremendous chaos.
		And my guess would be that we're kind of juvenile delinquents.
		So in one sense, we have capacities that maybe the ancients didn't have, but we've bought those capacities and are now in a terrible pickle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question, of course, is, even if we are evolving, is it towards some sort of terrible destination that the very same one that previous civilizations have gone to?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hard to say.
		You know, look, we're now just in the process of, I think, demonstrating that there was, for lack of a better word, call it Atlantis.
		I mean, there was a high civilization that went down.
		Now, why it went down, that it went down cataclysmically, I think that's pretty well demonstrated in two books in particular recently.
		By Graham Hancock, Fingerprints of the Gods, that's big bestseller in England and Canada and doing very well over here.
		It came out about a month ago.
		And that collects all of the information about when and where and how this happened.
		And then another book by two Canadian researchers, Rand and Rose Blemas, called When the Sky Fell, which is out in Canada and will be out here shortly, quite impressed.
		And they basically take the work of Charles Hapgood, who was a historian of science who developed a theory called crustal shift, which, without going into a long song and dance, explained geologically and physically or geophysically what was responsible for this terrific cataclysm around the time Plato said it happened, about 9,600 BC.
		And this was a theory that basically fell through the cracks.
		I mean, nobody paid much attention to it.
		Though Hapsbud somehow or another got into an interesting correspondence with Einstein at the time, shortly before Einstein's death.
		And Einstein thought that this was very plausible, difficult to prove, but, you know, that it was a well-argued theory.
		And even with Einstein's imprimatur upon it, it simply fell through the cracks.
		And the Flenhouse book, when the sky fell, takes Hapscud's work, and then there's been a tremendous amount of implementation of that theory over the course of the last 20 or 30 years.
		And it sounds ridiculous to say it, that the Atlantis, described at great length by Plato and his Timaeus, is actually what's now Antarctica, but it isn't, it sounds crazy, but it's not at all crazy.
		And my own geologists, and I'm in contact with all bunches, lots of geologists, who say, well, look, this is difficult to prove at the moment, but it really isn't, you know, this is not implausible.
		And the theory accounts for a number of things that are otherwise inexplicable, like the mammoth extinctions around 11,000 BC and so on.
		So I think, and then of course there's our famous chamber between the paws of the sinks, I'd almost bet odds on that within the next four or five years we really do have, we have stuff so sure that there were these civilizations, or at least a civilization back around 10,000 BC, that it really gets accepted, you know, even by its most bitter opponents at the moment.
		And then what do Isaiah do about that?
		I mean, that went down certainly in a great theological cataclysm.
		Now, the legends, if you look into the mythology, this is one piece of the puzzle, all the old myths and legends and so on.
		Now, a lot of them talk about, Bible included, Old Testament, that, you know, through man's iniquity and, you know, evil and blah, blah, blah and sin, that the whole thing went kaput and so forth and so on.
		Now, okay, you look at this from a rationalist point of view, it looks absurd.
		However, from a totally other point of view, there's some very interesting work being done now by some very brainy guys at Princeton and other universities.
		There's the next, an organization called the SSE, the Society for Scientific Exploration.
		And Chalk, my geologist and myself, gave a lecture there, one of the presentations at a recent meeting.
		But these people are interested in, they're looking into, using very hard-nosed scientific methods, things like psychokinesis and telepathy and so on.
		And they're finding out using very delicate instrumentation that it is in fact possible and provable that you can influence effectively the throw of the dice by will and by thinking.
		Now, by extension, I mean, this is a very delicate scientific experiment, you know, that shows itself up in very minute statistics, but the implications are enormous.
		In other words, of how we think and how we feel and how we behave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be your view that these talents, psychic talents, are long forgotten or now developing?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Maybe both.
		Certainly we don't, as a general rule, have them, but there's lots of anthropological work about the older and more so-called, to use the word in quotes, I wouldn't use it that way, primitive, the civilizations and the societies and the tribes, the aborigines and the bushmen of Africa and so on, they seem to have these capacities still.
		And I mean, to them it's nothing very special.
		They just have them.
		We've lost them.
		Maybe we're in the process of reconnecting.
		Yeah, well, it looks that way.
		In other words, a lot of this stuff is hard to judge.
		I mean, now everybody you know, everyone around, you know, your local friendly neighborhood trans channeler is summoning up themes and the Pleiades and stuff like that.
		Now, I mean, I don't know how to take that with a grain of salt or how, you know, I just don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		I'm a little iffy on channeling.
		John.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I don't know either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go to the phone here and see what we've got.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Anthony West.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
		Where are you?
		This is Mike.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to kiss you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Mike.
unidentified		I'd like to ask your guest if he's familiar with Richard Hoagland and some of his series.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very much so.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
		Really?
		Really?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		We all know each other.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you view Richard's work?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In so many ways, particularly with the Sidonia region of Mars, how do you view that?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's been a ton of work done on Richard's work.
		My feeling is that obviously, I think Richard would be the first one to say so, the final proof of the pudding is going to be another Mars shot that actually, with better photographs that says yes or no.
		Until that happens, the evidence is now, and there have been a lot of very highly qualified people who've been working on this, the evidence is good enough that as far as I'm concerned, the burden of disproof is upon the opponent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With that kind of strong statement in mind, don't you find it a little curious that NASA continually resists a closer examination of Sidonia, even if there is another Mars shot, as you put it.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't find that the least bit surprising.
		I'd be surprised if it were the opposite.
		In other words, the establishment is always and invariably, I mean, the history of everything is an establishment that doesn't want to change its mind for a variety of very interesting and deplorable psychological reasons.
		So the fact that it gets out there at all is sort of amazing.
		I mean, I'm quite frankly, I'm astonished.
		We're talking about the Santilli show before.
		In a way, I'm amazed that it comes out into the open because, you know, it's quite clear that when all of this stuff went on in Roswell, I mean, anybody who thinks that the government, I mean, my immediate reaction on anything put out by the government is that it's not true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm sorry to say I agree with that.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		And so the fact that they let this stuff out, given, you know, if the government is willing to do radiation tests on 20,000 of our own citizens who didn't do anything, they're capable of anything.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		So in a way, it's sort of surprising that it gets out there at all because, you know, who thinks this is a democracy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John, back to another call.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on with John Anthony West.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Boise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boise, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all right, go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, I made a statement earlier about the Egyptians not keeping track of history, and I think that was an inaccurate statement because it was either the first or second Caesar, and they did hieroglyphs on in one of the hieroglyph picturals about him going up into the heavens aboard a spaceship.
		I want to know if he heard of this or the first of the second Caesar?
		Yeah.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Now, went up into the heavens in a spaceship?
unidentified		Yeah.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		No, wait, hold on.
		One, if it's the first of the second Caesar, we're talking about Egypt.
		I mean, there's almost no Egypt left because under the Romans, there's no independent Egypt.
		The civilization of Egypt was still going on.
unidentified		No, maybe it was the Pharaoh then.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but they're not.
		It's an interesting point, actually, because the Pharaoh after death, his soul goes, the exact languages, his soul becomes a star and travels across the sky in the company of Ra, who's basically the sun, in his boat of millions of years.
		Now, if you take this literally that he went up there in a spaceship, you can do it that way.
		But you see, the hieroglyphs themselves, translation is rather difficult.
		Now, do they mean that symbolically?
		In other words, that his spiritual body went up there, or do they mean it literally that it went up there?
unidentified		As you say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, as we imagine our spiritual selves to travel.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I would say, and look, the more, I mean, if you asked me that question 10 years ago, I'd have said, well, I just don't buy the actual, the physical side of things.
		They're not talking about spaceships, they're talking about spiritual bodies.
		I still actually believe that.
		But the evidence for extraterrestrial life, as far as I'm concerned, gets better and better.
		So that the same words that I would have said 10 years ago are definitely spiritual, I would now say, well, gee, not so sure anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, from Mike in Seattle, please ask your guests to comment on the city of Thebes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These people live near the pyramids, make a living by grave robbing and hacking statues to pieces and selling them about the world.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		No, that's not the pyramid.
		I think what you're probably talking about, the city of Thebes, is a little village called Gourna, or Kurna, which is near the Valley of the Kings in Luxor, which is the other side of Thebes, T-A-T-B-E-S, is the ancient Greek name for what's now Luxor.
		And if that's what they're talking about, yes, those guys over the course of the 20th century had access to, they built their houses over old tombs and foraging about came up with all kinds of, they had secret passageways and they found old tombs that, in fact, the Egyptologists hadn't discovered.
		Basically, back then, Egyptology was a grave robbing anyway.
		And so they were chopping bits and things off and selling them on the antiquities markets and so on.
		And if that's what you're talking about, the city of Thebes, that's the little village of Corna near the Valley of the Kings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John, hold on right back to you.
		Many of you out there don't know there is a new Senate bill right now.
		A new Senate bill, a real one, not a modern American myth.
		Though discussion about the new money has been that for quite a while, this, I'm sorry to say, is real.
		a bill that will uh...
		create a new money now to john anthony here's a fax john art
		Some studies of Egypt claim that by using the dimensions of the passages of the Great Pyramid, the stream of time can be revealed.
		It was reported that by using the royal qubit as a measure, events in the past, like the birth of Christ, World War I, were in fact foretold.
		and that the measurements will point to the...
unidentified		...sees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's from Mike in San Jose.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Okay, yes.
		Very familiar with the prophecies.
		I must say it's the sort of thing that's kind of hard to disprove because you can figure around the numbers and come up with all sorts of things.
		My gut sense of the whole business is that I cannot for the life of me imagine why the ancient Egyptians should be interested in foretelling World War I or World War II or who wins the Super Bowl.
		You know, what about the Buddhists and India and China and all the rest of it?
		It simply doesn't seem, you know, what about Egyptian history?
		They don't seem to have the birth of Muhammad in there or the British conquest of Egypt.
		It just, it seems to me a very Eurocentric way of looking at the pyramid to do something that I don't think the pyramid was designed to do.
		But as I said, I'm willing enough to be proved wrong, but by jiggling around with those passages, it really is one of those instances where you can make the numbers do anything you want.
		And at the same time, the numbers are very significant in the pyramid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, very simply, what were the pyramids designed to do?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Jaha.
		Well, again, since they never told us, we have to deduce it.
		Now, my sense of it is that these really are gigantic technological spiritual instruments.
		I think that they are designed to facilitate getting into certain states of higher consciousness, which is, I think, quite frankly, what I think we're on this earth for.
		I mean, we're what Schwale de Lubitch worked out what I call the symbolist interpretation of Egypt, which is my basic interest.
		We haven't got around to talking much about what all of this knowledge means and where it leads us, but my sense is that what Egypt was talking about was the attainment of a higher state of consciousness that is, in effect, not subject to time or design.
		And I think that the pyramid, not just the Great Pyramid, but the other pyramids on the Giza Plateau and the Dark Shore, are in some way or another designed to put people who've done their homework and are suitably prepared into an altered state of consciousness where they actually have these experiences.
		And I know myself, well can I just...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you may.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Mostly my living comes out of leading trips to Egypt.
		And we always do a meditation session in the king's chamber of the Great Pyramid.
		And there are very few people who come out of that unmoved.
		And I've been in there on a number of occasions with people who were deeply skeptical and didn't want to know, and they were moved too.
		In other words, they were not prepared.
		You know, lots of people go in there expecting something brilliant, and then they get something brilliant or unusual, and that's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
		If you get people in there who are determined not to experience anything, and they come out, you know, shaken and moved, well, that's something else altogether.
		So I think that the purpose of the pyramids is, when the Egyptians talk about, you know, the pharaoh, that question that came at me just before of going in a spaceship to the stars, well, I don't think it's a spaceship so much, a physical spaceship.
		I really do believe that the pyramids are designed in order to give us access to these higher consciousness, spiritual states symbolized by the stars.
unidentified		All right, we're at our breakpoint here, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My interruption, and I'm sorry I interrupted you, was to ask you whether that higher state of consciousness had any parallels to what Mr. Monroe at the Monroe Institute has been teaching for so long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we'll take that up when we get back.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		How long will we be, by the way?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got about seven minutes.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Oh, great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		This is CBC.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Mexico and so on, mainly Mexico, are certainly newer than the ones in Egypt, and they use a very different geometry and mathematics, and yet there are numerical relationships.
		My sense of it is that both stem, there's not a direct connection, I think, between Egypt and that earlier Mayan or Pre-Mayan civilization, but I think both probably stem from a common source,
		which I think is that Atlantean civilization that went down around 10,000 BC, because there are enough parallels in the way that they use geometry and mathematics to make me think that the same order of knowledge is there, but not a direct connection.
		In other words, the ancient Egyptians didn't go over and colonize Mexico and then subsequently built their pyramids in a totally different way, even though they're pyramids.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One more, and then back to the phone.
		Please ask your guest how he views the work of Zachariah Sitchin.
		It seems very relevant to his area of expertise.
unidentified		That's from Portland.
unidentified		Okay.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's sort of relevant.
		I think Sitchin is definitely on to something with, I mean, particularly in dating the pyramids and the Sphinx as older and so on.
		His extraterrestrial contact theory, I think, probably has something to it too.
		However, See, I'm not a Sumeriologist, I'm an Assyriologist.
		So when he's talking about Sumeria and Assyria, I'm not in a position to argue.
		However, when he's talking about Egypt, it seems to me, without going into specifics here, we don't have enough time on a radio show.
		It seems to me that he's making the data conform to what he wants it to say.
		Beyond that, he's effectively what I call a galactic materialist.
		In other words, the beings from outer space, as it were, are just smarter and even more malignant people than ourselves and have colonized us to be slaves for them.
		And there is no higher consciousness.
		There is no meaning.
		There is no destiny.
		And quite frankly, though I respect his work in many ways, I find his philosophy and his conclusions repellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps so, but is it not consistent with history that the strong, the intelligent, those with technology enslave the weak, one way or the other?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yes and no.
		For a while, yes.
		Ultimately, I'm not so sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe there is no ultimately, but in any given way.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		For the time being, yeah, but sometimes there are periods where really it isn't just masters and slaves.
		You know, there are certain periods, ancient Egypt, at least for quite a long period of time, Buddhist Asia, for at least a few hundred years.
		There are periods of real civilization where it isn't all dog eat dogs.
unidentified		All right.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Not many, but they're there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Anthony West.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, all right.
		This is Karen in Houston.
		How are you and John?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hello, how are you?
unidentified		Fine, fine.
unidentified		I've got a little response to your question about the evolution of mankind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		All right, speaking from personal experience, I think that can be gauged, and again, it has to be on the individual basis, on the level of answer given to questions asked.
		And when you continually have answers coming to questions that, you know, are just sort of not in the norm, then you go, wow, okay.
		And if it's forward progress, then that's great.
		I can give you an example out again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
unidentified		All right.
		I had a family member in whom I was talking rather deeply with about a family problem.
		And in order to get a dramatic response from him, a yes or a no, a very direct response, I had to word a question I had to ask about another family member and say it in such a way that I would get the right response, you know, from the heart is what I was looking for.
		And so I had to be a bit abrupt and curt, but I said it.
		And then the person sat very calmly, but this dark brown-eyed person, his eyes flashed blue.
		And then he was very calm and serene, and then instead of getting a very verbal answer back, he was very quiet and got up and walked out of the room and came back, and his whole personality had changed.
		I've never seen this happen before where the brown eyes turned blue, but I knew there was something that was emitted there in response.
		And so several days later, I happened to pick up a book about Nicola Tesla's life.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		And in the heart of the book, I opened it and I just happen to open it right straight to the heart of the book, the middle of the book.
		And he has a chapter in there on observations on the eyes.
		And I'm reading through this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excuse me, dear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you relate this to my guest?
unidentified		Okay, the evolution of things from the spirit and all this, okay.
unidentified		Nicola Tesla had an associate who said that even in the broadest of daylight, that once the intellect is triggered and you go straight to what it would be the heart of the soul and the mind, that there would be a, for an instant, even in brightest day, you will see a flash of energy in the eyes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you.
		Crystal Gale sang about brown eyes turning blue too.
		Any response to that?
		Make anything out of that more than I did?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		No, it was very interesting, but it's not actually germane to the question of evolution, or has there been or hasn't there been?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's interesting in the sense that there are moments of higher consciousness, and if that reflects in eyes that are brown turning blue, well, so be it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are there?
		Do you think that arguably there are more moments now of increased consciousness or fewer?
		And our great technological civilization, boy, we've got cellular phones, television, we've got the internet, we've got the web, we've got all of this.
		Is this masking it and hiding it and causing us to not raise our level of consciousness as we should in quiet contemplation and obscuring a message that we ought to be getting right now?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Good question, Laura.
		Actually, yes and no, I would say.
		The technology in and of itself is deadening.
		In other words, anything that does something for you that you don't do yourself, you know, a power mower doesn't build up muscle, but a push mower does.
		Anything that the machine does for you is something you're not doing yourself.
		On the other hand, suddenly there is access to the whole world of knowledge, stuff that absolutely, I mean, a hundred years ago, things weren't available at all.
		I mean, you just couldn't find them.
		Now a press of a button puts you in touch with a whole world of stuff that simply wasn't available before.
		So in other words, if technology is understood as not a means, an end in itself, but a means toward an end, I mean, I'm from being sort of really a neoluddite myself 30 years ago, I've now become pretty technophiliac in the sense that, I mean, I really think that the stuff is there to be used, and if it's used intelligently, it does open means of doing things.
		It doesn't, still, anything that's of any value is something that you have to do yourself.
		No machine will teach you to play the violin or do a martial art.
		So anything that's of value.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not saying good or evil, you're saying both.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying actually neither.
		In other words, it's a means toward an end.
		If it's used intelligently, it facilitates things.
		But if it's simply something, if it's, I mean, obviously, what communicated is what counts.
		If rubbish is communicated, well, then that's what you're going to get.
		I mean, what does it say?
		What is it?
		Garbage in, garbage out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what they say.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		But nevertheless, as a means of accessing information, it's brilliant.
		However, information is just information.
		It's not understanding, and understanding isn't wisdom.
		The machine isn't going to give you wisdom.
		Only study and work and lots of stuff is going to give you wisdom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go back to Volans.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with John Anthony West.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, hi.
		You know, in The Secrets of The Great Pyramid, he discusses in that book that once the pyramids were faced with granite stone and perhaps coated with a gold film and topped with a crystal.
		And I just wonder if your guest has any information on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, by the way?
unidentified		California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		California, all right.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hold on a minute.
		Secrets of the Great Pyramid.
		Peter Tompkins' book?
unidentified		Yes.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I don't know who he's talking about there that says one, it wasn't faced with granite, it's faced with limestone.
		That's anyway, the Great Pyramid.
		Nobody's sure that it's thought.
		That's the very top of it, the Pyramidian, as it's called, had a coating of electrum, which is an amalgam of gold and silver.
		Yes.
unidentified		Now, the question was, would that, what?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Repeat the question again.
unidentified		Well, I just wondered if you had any information on that.
unidentified		I guess the assumption was that it was at one time some form of radio, for lack of a better word, radio transmitter.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hard to say.
		Certainly it was once, I mean, it had a perfect coating of limestone.
		The top of it may well have had gold or silver or crystal, some people think.
		Nobody knows.
		There's no evidence.
		It's gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about a broader definition as conductor of some sort of energy?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that, you know, as I said, I mean, it is, in my understanding, it's hard to imagine, particularly when you're inside the thing.
		I mean, it doesn't feel like a temple and it doesn't feel like a tomb.
		It feels like an absolutely fabulous technological instrument of some sort that has a tremendous emotional impact.
		You see, if you go inside any of our technology, it's pretty impressive, but it doesn't move you.
		And you get inside the pyramid, you feel like you're in the inside of a symphony.
		It's very difficult to describe.
		And I mean, everybody has this sense.
		So, yes, it's an instrument.
		Transmitter, a transducer, a condenser.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Receiver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		A receiver?
		Who knows?
		But it has this profound effect.
		And when you go into that king's chamber or any of the other chambers and go quiet and get into a meditative state, you can't do it when there are a whole bunch of people around, like listening to the box when you're in the middle of the Super Bowl.
		When you go in there and you really listen, you get hit with something inexplicable.
		And almost everybody gets hit.
		I think the only way you don't get hit is if you're dead inside.
		If you're really dead, you probably do get hit.
		Because that was what they were used for.
		But so yes, they're instruments.
		Whether or not they're, you know, in the sense of our radio transmitter or something like that, who knows?
		But they certainly serve some kind of incredible technological function that we don't really understand.
		That was just beginning to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John, hold it right there.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now to my guest, we've only got about a minute before the bottom of the hour, so a quick question from somewhere out east of the Rockies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Yes, I'm in Montana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're on the air with John Anthony West.
unidentified		Yeah, John, this is Transformer from Montana.
		I get the scallion newsletter, and recently he had a thing about the pyramid being a time machine.
		It was a large crystal bird in the main gallery that was moved up and down to tune it.
		And I thought I'd ask what's your impression of this rod, all right?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Hard to say, actually.
		I mean, you know, in a sense, I would agree it is some sort of a time machine, but it depends on what sense you mean.
		A crystal that's movable, you don't know about a crystal there.
		Is it there?
		Was it there?
		Impossible to say.
		You know, I simply can't.
		There's no answer to questions like that until, from my point of view, until you can actually demonstrate that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, your sense is, though, that I think you said in the next three or four year time period there will be great new discoveries?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm pretty sure there will be, actually, Art.
		I mean, just even our work is, you know, is very, in a way, even though it kind of blows all of history out the window, it's very orthodox.
		It's geology and geophysics and, you know, very hard-noted science.
		And, of course, if we find the object, if we get into that chamber between the parts of the things, and we actually find something that the opposition cannot deny, that in and of itself blows all of history out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Blows all of history out.
		All right.
		Well, there's a good line to hang on.
		We are at the breakpoint.
		You've got about four minutes.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		This is Dreamland.
		We're at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 area code.
		Now again, ears are fell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only number not given there was the east of the Rockies number anywhere.
		This is 1-800-825-5033.
		That's 1-800-825-5033.
		The 818CS radio by Sanjean is arguably the best radio for the money.
		You can spend about $300 more and get a marginal improvement, but for the money, if you want X3, 1-800-522-8863, back to our guest now, an Egyptologist, Nee West.
		John, just before we take any more calls, I assume you haven't done it, so I'm going to try and make you do it here.
		You've probably got books.
		I know you've got a book.
		You've got videotapes.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if somebody wants more info or wants to order your book or videotapes, how do they do it?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm glad you asked that question, Mark, because I didn't want to inject it into the thing and sound as though I were promoting myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		However, yeah, sure, of course they're available.
		Best way to do it is there's an 800 number, which is 800-508-0558.
		That's 800-508-0558.
		And ask for operator A, and then they know where the call comes from.
		And there you can get either of my books, A Serpent in the Sky, which is symbolists Egypt, everything that we've been talking about.
		The case for astrology, which is all of the evidence that says there really is something to it.
		And the video, of course, which is something I won the Emmy for with Charlton Heston.
		And this is the expanded version, which is an hour and a half, which has a lot of the much more speculative stuff that we couldn't get on network television.
		That has the Mars stuff with Richard Hoagland and the Edgar Casey stuff.
		And a lot of things that weren't on the one-hour show.
		And then if you want information about my trip, say that's what you want, and they'll put you onto where you get the trip information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much, John, is the videotape?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Videotape is, I think, I'm not sure.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		It's either $24.95 or $29.95.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		One of the other, what's the buster?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They can find out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1-800-1-800-508-0558 operator A as in alpha.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I hope you get lots of orders.
unidentified		Oh, I hope so too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies?
		No, I think east.
		You're on with John Anthony West.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		We're Mark from Collinsville on satellite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Collinsville, Illinois, all right?
unidentified		Yes, great guest.
		John, I've had your book for a couple years, and my prize possession, I don't loan it out.
		And I wish you would have elaborated more on the Tonetaru in there, but it's a great book.
		You said you were interested in astrology.
		And that one previous caller mentioned section.
		Now, you're right on one thing about his...
		And Art mentioned earlier about Halba.
		And word has it from some people that work on the Hubble that this thing is a planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where'd you get that, please?
unidentified		What, Comet, you mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This caller said that somebody working with the Hubble has indicated this is a planet.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Where'd you get that?
		What you're calling a comet?
		Yes, sir.
		Yeah.
unidentified		I can call in a couple of nights and give you a recording.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And maybe take it further.
		But that is the word from one person that's working on the Hubble.
		All right.
		And they said this thing is 3,000 miles across something.
		Now, it seems like something, you know, like Haley's Comet, that comes through every, I don't know how often.
		Wouldn't something this big had come through before?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		We have to sort of think about Zechariah's section again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are present estimates of 2,000 to 3,000-year repetition.
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's not, you know, it's not impossible.
		I mean, Pluto is whatever it is, 360 some odd years, and they never would have discovered Pluto without, you know, without fairly major telescopes.
		So, yes, I mean, that's not the part of...
		In other words, that's there to be demonstrated.
		I mean, I can't say yes or no myself.
		Really, as far as Sitchin is concerned, it's his materialistic philosophy that I'm opposed to, plus the fact that when it gets to Egypt, he's fudging sometimes.
		I mean, he's taking data, and it's not difficult to do this in scholarship, and unless you're really deeply involved with the subject, it looks as though it's bona fide.
		And if you know the text that he's talking about well enough, you can say, well, no, he's twisting it to make it do such and such.
		Delikovsky does the same sort of thing.
		But of course, so do the absolutely orthodox people.
		They're doing it all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about John Anthony West?
john anthony west ▲ ● ▼		I try not to, but if somebody comes up and says, well, yes, you're fudging it here or you're making it conform to your own presentations, I'm usually prepared to argue it out because I'm very conscious of how easy it is to do that.
		I try not to.
		But, you know, everybody, it's ridiculous.

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