Art Bell

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Aug. 20, 1995 - Art Bell

01:24:44

Dreamland with Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe - Alien Autopsy Film - Robert Morningsky - Hopi Indians

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23:20

linda moulton howe

05:12

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		This Hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
unidentified		Please do not call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
		And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		Indeed, Sunday again, Dreamland on the air.
		It's going to be quite a program this evening.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Glad to be here.
		We've got yet another new station joining the Dreamland network.
		It is KZIM in Cape Girardeau, Missouri.
		That's KZIM, Cape Girardeau, Missouri.
		Home, of course, of Rush Limbaugh.
		Glad to have them on board.
		They also carry the regular program during the week.
unidentified		Now, Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me give you a thumbnail sketch of what's coming up.
		In a moment, I understand there is breaking news in England.
		Breaking news regarding the Roswell photographs.
		Where is Arrow Linda Howe?
		You guessed it, just outside London.
		She'll be with us in just a moment.
		And she has a guest with her, George Wingfield, who has now seen 30 minutes, 30 minutes of the autopsy film.
		So look out for that.
		Coming up following that, Robert Morningsky.
		Honored to have Robert Morningsky with us.
		And if we're lucky, Linda Howe will be right here.
		Linda, are you there?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Art.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Can you hear me clearly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, sometimes, Linda, I swear we get a better connection when you're in England than we do when you're in Philadelphia.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So is this clear tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Clear as a bell.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I want to say to our new Missouri listeners that the fourth annual Midwest UFO conference in Springfield, Missouri is on September 9th and 10th, and there is a number for tickets.
		This has been a wonderful conference.
		Susan Bedell has been an organizer there for the last three or four years.
		And if we can, I'd like to give a phone number for people who could contact Susan Bedell, because I think this is a very good conference worth attending.
		It's area code 417-882-6847 in Springfield, Missouri.
		And that will be September 9th and 10th.
		And it's good to know we've got another station in Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, where are you in England, actually?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In Peterborough, north of London, about an hour.
		Drove here to meet George Wingfield about halfway coming back from the Sheffield English conference, which was held this weekend by the British UFO Research Association, known as Bufora.
		And one of the main subjects was the controversial alleged autopsy of a non-human being first introduced to the public by Ray Santilli in London on May 5th.
		And with me is George Wingfield, an English researcher who spoke with us on Dreamland at the Seattle Mufon Conference and who has now been talking with Ray Santilli about new developments in this story.
		And he, George, attended this conference where Centilli screened a little more than 30 minutes of the black and white footage of both an autopsy and pieces of debris from what is now described as a crash site near Socorro, New Mexico, not Roswell.
		George, can you describe for us what you did see this weekend on film?
unidentified		Well, on film, I saw the autopsy sequence, which I'd already seen on May the 5th in London.
		And in addition to that, I also saw some of the debris, some of which bore hieroglyphics, and also a very strange-looking what appeared to be a control panel or some kind of setting which had the imprints of alien hands, if we accept these are six-fingered alien hands in the control panel.
		Very strange.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Meaning that there were depressions for six finger pads, two and two, so there were twelve finger pads altogether that you could see on the film?
unidentified		That's correct, yes.
		There were two hand prints, and these were six-fingered hands.
		Beyond the fingertips were what appeared to be buttons, which there were two rows of buttons in semicircular arcs beyond the fingertips.
		And there were a number of grooves.
		This is an odd-looking device, I must say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, George, Linda and I-beam talked about the beams.
unidentified		Yes, there was definitely something which looked like an I-beam, it was, of that sort of section.
unidentified		And there was sort of quite a wide band of hieroglyphics on that.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Because of this autopsy footage, you said this was now a clearer presentation of some of this footage.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was there anything about this now that struck you as being particularly impressive to you as being the autopsy of something that was not human?
unidentified		Well, I think seeing it the second time through, you noticed an awful lot of detail which you probably missed the first time through.
unidentified		The people who were viewing this the first time, I think some of them were shocked or really quite turned off by what they were looking at because most people are not familiar with autopsies and this is really in your face and I don't think there's much doubt about it that what was being autopsied was a corpse of some variety and not, as some people would have you believe, a plastic dummy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you able to hear me?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		May I ask George a couple of questions, Linda?
		Okay.
		George, the apparatus that you were describing, the control board, was this sort of a piece of wreckage or were you looking at a larger part of a craft?
		I don't quite understand.
unidentified		No, it was a piece of wreckage.
unidentified		it appeared to have been broken off, and it was part of some console, maybe, something of this kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the fact that it had those six finger depressions is interesting, Art, because I know that several years ago there was a man working in intelligence in the United States who told me that he had seen some kind of a console in film that had finger pad depressions.
		And I always had the idea that it was the four long-fingered hands that we've had described all these years.
		Perhaps the truth is that there is something about these six fingers that is a reality, and we've all been thought or been told that it was something other than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, this seems to be a big turnaround, and all of a sudden, I'm sensing that both of you now feel this footage is the real thing.
		Is that correct?
unidentified		Well, can I make my position clear?
		I think it's too early to make a definite decision on that, and I still hold back.
		I still sit on the fence until some more research has been done, and that the cameraman has been properly questioned about everything that went on and his story.
		Now, I do have the details of his story, which I'll go through here.
		It shouldn't take too long, but the detail is fascinating and rather shocking, in fact.
		And I'll also say that at this conference in Sheffield, Michael Hessman spoke, and he has put more research into this than any other UFO researcher.
		I've worked quite closely with him.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Michael Hessman is from Germany art and has been a publisher of several books and articles concerning the crop circles and other aspects of UFO research.
		And he has really gotten into the investigation of this race anti-level.
		Go ahead, Jorge.
unidentified		Michael Hessman recently, that is in July, went out to New Mexico and he did quite a lot of research, including a visit to the site which the cameraman clearly indicated was where this crash had occurred, which is, I think, approximately between 15 and 20 miles southwest of Socaro, New Mexico.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In the plains of St. Augustine.
unidentified		That's right, and it's off on the end of a dirt road, about 10 miles off the highway, down towards the south, from the road which leads from Socaro to Magdalena, for those of you who know that part of the world.
		I can say some more about this later, but let me just make Michael Hesselman's position clear.
		He spoke, he gave an absolutely brilliant lecture this afternoon in Sheffield, which had, you could have heard a pin drop because people hung on every word.
		And as I say, he's done a lot of research here.
		He said, this film may very well be authentic.
		I don't say this film is definitely the real thing.
		I only say that everything we checked out checked out in favor of it.
		Indications that it might be a hoax did not check out.
		We have more indications that it is the real thing than we have against it.
		And that is a remarkable statement.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what is it that the cameraman himself has released as his own story about how he came to film this remarkable footage?
unidentified		Let me just run roughly through the cameraman's story, and I'll put a few quotations in here because I have the words in front of me.
		The cameraman was in the military from 1942 to 1952.
		Despite having polio as a child, he managed to join the Army Air Force as a cameraman.
		He worked exclusively as a cameraman in an intelligence capacity, and he had top secret clearance.
		He filmed such things as part of the Manhattan Project and the testing of the Trinity site in New Mexico.
		On June the 2nd, 1947, he was ordered by General McMullen to take part in a special project, which was to film a crash that had occurred in New Mexico, and he was to go directly to it.
		He flew from Andrews Air Force Base now, Washington, with 16 other officers.
		He flew to Wright Field, where he picked up more men and more equipment, and he then flew on in a C-54 to Roswell, New Mexico.
		Immediately they got there, they put all their equipment in trucks and they drove out into the desert.
		And they drove for several hours towards Socaro, passing by the Apache Indian Reservation on the way.
		They then drove from Sicaro towards Magdalena and they turned 10 miles south on a dirt road until they got to a dry lake bed.
		This area was completely cordoned off by the military.
		And despite a command he received from General Tuhe in Washington, D.C., in addition to General McMullen, saying this was the crash of a Soviet spy plane, it was quite obvious this was not a spy plane.
		According to his account, there was a large disk on its back, and there was heat still radiating from the ground around it.
		There were debris and some with hieroglyphs on scattered in the area.
		There were strange beings, which he described as freaks, lying beside the craft.
		Now this is very similar to the Barney Barnett story, which appears in Stanton Friedman's book.
		Barney Barnett came across a disk somewhere on the plains of St. Augustine in the Scora area, and he saw a number of alien creatures lying beside it.
		So this is lining up with that particular story.
		He says, strange beings, obviously from another world.
		Large head, dark eyes, no hair, six digits.
		This, I'm quoting him now, this was made all the worse for the screams of the freaks, that's what he called them, that were lying by the vehicle.
		What in God's name they were, no one could tell.
		But one thing was for sure.
		They were circus freaks, creatures with no business here.
		That's his expression.
		Each had hold of A box which they kept hold of with both arms close to their chests and just lay there crying, holding these boxes.
		This is a very shocking account, and it's a brutal account, and I think we have to really think ourselves back to the 40s, where we'd just gone through a world war.
		This was the era of Auschwitz, the era of Hiroshima, and behavior towards things which are not apparently human was not exactly very sympathetic.
		He says the medical team was reluctant at first to go near the freaks, kills them the freaks.
		But if some were injured, they had no choice.
		He says, once my tent had been set up, I started drumming first the vehicle, then the debris.
		At about 6 a.m., it was deemed safe to move in.
		These creatures, according to his account, have been left lying there for goodness knows how long.
		I mean, it might have taken him anything up to 24 hours to get down from Washington.
		This makes it very hard to believe this story.
		I mean, when I first read this, I thought this account is totally incredible.
		I cannot believe what this man is saying.
		But anyway, read it through.
		I think the brutality is something which is totally possible in the circumstances.
		At about 6 a.m., it was deemed safe to move in.
		Again, the freaks were still crying, and when approached, they screamed even louder.
		They were protective of their boxes, but we managed to get one loose with a firm strike of the head of a freak with a rifle butt.
		These poor creatures, if we believe this account, these poor creatures have traveled halfway across the galaxy and they met with this total lack of hospitality and nothing short of utter brutality.
		And I think that in this account, it appears that two of them were actually killed by the military.
		The three freaks were dragged away and tied up with a rope and tape.
		Obviously, two of them died during this recovery operation.
		One of them was dead already from the crash, according to the account.
		One of them lived on because the third autopsy was done.
		Two autopsies were done in a military hospital in Fort Worth or Dallas in July, the first three days of July of 1947.
		And a further autopsy was done in May 1949, which seems to indicate that at least one of these creatures lived on for nearly two years.
		He says the craft and the debris were eventually put onto a flatbed truck and moved away and taken to Wright-Patterson, or Bright Field, as it was then known.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, listen to me.
		I want to stop you both right now, and I'm going to put you on hold for a moment.
		This is too important to leave.
		I have some things I must get done.
		Okay.
		So please, everybody, just wait where you are, and we'll be back to you.
		All right, good.
		You're listening to Dreamland.
		Big news coming from England.
		Linda Howe, George Wingfield are our present guests, and it's all about the Roswell autopsy, or more accurately, I guess, not the Roswell autopsy, but the New Mexico, I'll call it, autopsy.
		And we're getting a lot of new information here, so stay right with us here at the bottom of the hour, and we're going to come back and ask a couple of other very critical questions regarding this breaking news.
		This is the film, by the way, that is due to air worldwide on the 28th of August here in the U.S., we understand, by the Fox Network.
		So some pretty important information ahead of that broadcast.
		You're listening from the high desert to dreamland.
unidentified		The high desert to dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		BC.
unidentified		Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to Linda Howe and George Wingfield in just one moment.
		North American Trading has a straight-out simple offer for you.
		They'll send you a copy of a brand new Senate bill that ought to put a chill right down your spine.
		This is a real Senate bill introduced and about to be acted on that would establish a new form of money in this country.
		Actually, two of them.
		One for use inside the country, one for use outside the country.
		A lot of people suspect one reason for this may be a coming almost inevitable devaluation of our currency.
		So, I mean, get this Senate bill.
		Just call them, tell them, give them my name.
		They'll send you the bill.
		You can do it right now.
		The number is 1-800-877-9799.
		1-800-877-9799.
		North American Trading back to near London, England.
		Linda and George, we don't have a lot of time, but I want to ask a couple of very important questions.
		One is with regard to the photographer.
		Are there now indications he will come forward and say something?
unidentified		Well, the photographer has spoken to the Channel 4 TV people who are making this documentary, which is going to be shown on the 28th of August.
		And he has spoken to them.
		I'm not sure whether it's face-to-face or by telephone, but he will not appear in front of the cameras unless he actually gets a dispensation from the President.
		This is what he's demanded, which is not likely to be forthcoming.
		Well, however, I can say a few words about the Fox program, which you're likely to see on the 28th.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And before you do, George, I just want to make clear to our Dreamland listeners that what George was reading from was this cameraman now known as Jack B, period.
		The name Barnett apparently was not correct in those first releases.
		The cameraman's entire statement was read at the Sheffield Conference, and George Wingfield was quoting excerpts from this.
		And it's also important now to note that the cameraman himself is placing the location of the crash retrieval that he was involved in filming parts and the autopsies near Socorro and not the Brazil Ranch near Roswell, which raises the possibility that we're dealing with two different crashes or more and different bodies.
		And George, I'd like you to address that confusion as well.
unidentified		Well, this is very confusing, but the crash the cameraman refers to occurred on June the 1st, 1947.
		And we believe that whatever crashed at the Brashol Ranch crashed a bit later than that, possibly mid-June, possibly even July the 3rd, which has come to be about July the 2nd or 3rd, the established date in the literature.
		But these could have been two entirely separate incidents.
		But I simply don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I have one more question, then we've got to get out of here.
		It is the following.
		You have seen the film.
		The American public has not yet seen the film.
		When it is broadcast in America, and Linda, maybe you'll be qualified to speak on this, or both of you, how is it going to, in your opinion, affect the American public?
unidentified		Well, I can tell you what is going to be said in that film.
		The researchers, there's a lot of denial and prejudice against the idea that this could possibly have been an alien craft.
		And I think an awful lot of researchers, especially people who are not into the field of UFOs, will find some alternative solution.
		And so you're going to be told that these corpses, which are seen in the autopsy, are the victims of nuclear testing, the victims of genetic engineering, the victims of germ warfare.
		All sorts of solutions of that kind are going to come up.
		And I don't buy any of them because, frankly, I mean, germ warfare, nuclear testing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't produce six fingers and six hands.
unidentified		No way, no way.
		And it doesn't enlarge your head and it doesn't make you look like that.
		These creatures are creatures.
		And as far as we know, they are definitely not latex dummies.
		There may be other explanations, but I don't buy any of the ones I've just mentioned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, we're out of time.
		I want to thank you both.
		It has been a very meaningful, important report ahead of the broadcast here in America.
		So thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I think, Art, we have to continue to keep an open mind on this.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		We may finally be seeing autopsy film from something that is non-human, but the question is, now with the cameraman story, placing it on the plains of St. Augustine outside of Socorro, we have yet an entirely new story here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, sir.
unidentified		Sonny Bonnet's story.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to thank you both.
		We've got to go.
		Thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Linda, next week, will you remain there?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I'll be reporting next Sunday, but I don't know from where.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Probably somewhere in England, and I'll call you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Thank you both, and good night from the high desert here in America.
		Now, this may all work very well together indeed.
		Let me give you a quote from Robert Morningsky, who is a Native American of the Hopi Nation.
		We are not alone.
		The astronomers are wrong.
		The scientists are wrong.
		They are here.
		We cannot see them because they hide.
		They hide in plain sight.
		We are their servants.
		We are their slaves.
		We are their property.
		We are theirs.
		Robert Morningsky.
		Robert Morningsky is considered to be an elder of the Hopi Indian Nation.
		When you hear him, he will sound like he came straight out of Harvard.
		And for all I know, he did.
		I've got a long, very long bio on him, and I'm not going to go into it.
		We'll let him tell us who he is.
		I've also got a photograph of him here, and one in full Indian garb.
		And I'll tell you, it's extremely impressive, and so I'm very proud to introduce to you, Robert Morningsky.
		Robert, are you there?
		Can you hear me?
unidentified		Yes, sir, I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
		Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you.
		Where are you?
		I'm in Phoenix, Arizona right now.
		I just returned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand you're also a Native American dancer, is that correct?
unidentified		That's my profession, yes.
		I'm actually called a powwow bum.
		I attend quite a few powwows, but I am a professional dancer.
		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Before we move on, I take it you have become familiar with the autopsies that we just talked about.
unidentified		Actually, yes, and I am absolutely fascinated because if you'll allow me a moment to describe where I have just returned from, which I think may surprise you and some of your listeners, let me first correct a misinterpretation here.
		I am not an elder of the Hopi Nation.
		I would not be presumptuous enough to claim that.
		I am, in fact, have been given honorary status as an elder in Australia from the Aborigines.
		So I do not want to mislead your listeners nor cause any disrespect to my people in the Hopi Nation.
		All right.
		I have just returned from an area called the Canyonlands in Utah.
		And actually what had happened is that approximately two years ago while on a vision quest with some individuals, I was instructing them and guiding them through the process, we entered the Canyonlands of Utah.
		And I don't want to get real specific, but while we were there, we discovered some walls with some ancient glyphs attributed to the Anasazi.
		And one of the most remarkable walls is one that in fact shows footprints, and it tells a story about six-toed ancient ones.
		And the implication, obviously, if they have six toes is that they have six fingers on their hand.
		And so obviously this ties in quite well with what is happening with this tape.
		These ancient stories told not only in Utah but in Arizona and New Mexico in the glyph, says that these very ancient ones, the six-toed people, have been here and have guided man's evolution and his development.
		Certainly, I think several of your listeners who are familiar with some of the ancient cultures, the Babylonian, the Mesopotamian, also realized that the numerical system was a base 12.
		And certainly, the inference is that if we contemporary human beings use a base 10 based on 10 digits of our hands, then certainly we can infer that the base 12 may very well have come from six-toed, six-fingered beings from the past.
		So I find this report absolutely, absolutely confirming some of our research, which actually deals with ancient cultures, but now uncovering in this film that we have some video evidence of 12-fingered, 12-toed individuals.
		So I'm fascinated.
		I love this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is remarkable.
		One other area that I know that you've looked into is crop circles.
		Now, Linda Howe is generally considered to be the world's expert on crop circles.
		And crop circles seem to be almost hieroglyphic in nature, or at least as indecipherable in many cases.
		And I wonder what you would have to say about crop circles.
		What have you discerned from what you have seen?
unidentified		Most of my information has come, believe it or not, from a gentleman named Colin Andrews, who I met in Australia a few years ago.
		I was not familiar with his work.
		I didn't know who he was.
		And we began to, he showed me some photographs and we began to go over them.
		And I was fascinated because many of the symbols are very, very akin to some of the ancient Hopi and the ancient Pueblo Indian glyphs.
		I'm going to go out on a limb here and I'm going to suggest that in fact the glyphs that, excuse me, the crop circles that have appeared in the last few years, at least those that I'm familiar with, that these crop circles are intended not so much to define or specifically spell out either a word or a mathematical formula, though certainly I'm convinced that the mathematics is there.
		But I believe that virtually everyone who looks at a photograph has some sort of an inner feeling that they recognize that there is something there.
		And I believe, I'm going to suggest that these crop circles are intended to evoke ancient memories.
		I believe that we are being sent signals designed to try to wake us up to our distant past.
		Certainly some of the crop circles appear to be coming from Mother Earth herself.
		And I'm not going to say that this is a written language she's trying to express.
		These are outbursts of internal energy essentially trying to warn we inhabitants that she's in pain, that she's having some difficulty.
		But by and large, the very elaborate designs I have seen, I really do believe are intended to evoke memories to make us remember, or at least try to get us to remember, that which we have forgotten.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There have been sightings of UFOs or unidentified objects above or near the formation of crop circles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what you seem to be suggesting is that it's not an external source like that, but the Earth itself.
unidentified		Well, actually, they're both.
		Actually, some of the simpler ones, the round ones, the simpler shapes, do come from other Earth.
		However, the more complex ones are being, I believe, manipulated and created by, I'm not sure I want to go out and say disks, but from a slightly further distance, and I believe that these are beings who were in contact with us thousands and thousands of years ago and are now trying to reawaken us to what is going on and hopefully ancient memories.
		As a matter of fact, I would suggest that, for example, the face on Mars and some of the monuments on the moon, which I don't know if they've been discovered or not.
		I'm going to suggest they, too, are intended, much like the monolith in the movie 2001, to cause us to recall.
		I would say across the board that a lot of the phenomena that occurs now is basically a wake-up call.
		Do you remember?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it that we are to remember, Robert?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do they want us to remember?
unidentified		In the Terra papers that I wrote actually back in college almost 30 years ago, what I was trying to suggest is that man's evolution, man's development, and even his creation have been manipulated and engineered by beings from the stars.
		Native America is replete with stories about star beings.
		Virtually every tribe, every nation has some sort of creation story that reveals the origin of man from star beings who descended to this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that, I guess, is where I should stop and ask you, what was your father's name?
unidentified		My father's name?
		You know, my father died when I was young, and I did not know him.
		I was passed on and essentially adopted by another individual.
		That is one of the mysteries of my life.
		I did not know his name, in fact.
		I can only guess at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then your adopted father?
		His name.
		I read in the beginning of the Terra Papers that an individual, I guess I'm going to have to resort to that, had an encounter with what he thought were star people.
unidentified		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that person is?
unidentified		My adopted grandfather, we called him Dare Annie.
		D-A-R-E-A-N-Y Dare Any.
		is relatively fearless, foolish in the eyes of them.
		In the sense that he seemed to have no fear.
		He would confront situations where perhaps wiser people might walk away from a difficult situation.
		He would confront it fully.
		He had no fear of death.
		And a brave person can certainly be called foolish by some and may be admired and respected by others.
		Daring essentially meant he was willing to, not necessarily dare, but to accept virtually any challenge.
		He was not an unwise man.
		He always took calculated risks.
		And so I was very proud of him.
		But a lot of people do consider him, or did consider him a renegade, considered him a very foolish man at the same time, as I said, I'm very proud of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He told you stories, didn't he?
unidentified		Yes, he did.
		And curiously enough, I'll let your readers and you and other researchers make a judgment call, but the story that was passed on to me and that which I'm trying to again relate is that in August of 1947,
		less than a month after the famous Roswell crash, that there was another disc which came down in approximately the Four Corners area of New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado.
		And that there were six young men, my grandfather included, who were on a vision quest.
		They witnessed the falling of the disc and went to the crash site and while going through the wreckage they discovered a live being.
		They took him, the being, with them to their camp.
		And there, over the course of a few months, they were able to nurse him to reasonably good health and then began a communication between the six and his star being.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Robert, hold it right there.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is a Native American of the Hopi Nation.
		His name is Robert Morning Sky.
		More in a moment.
		Just about anybody who's anybody knows the way to make money is to have it.
		Yeah, but there's more.
		You've got to know how to invest it, when to invest it, timing it.
		It is your belief, and the belief of the Hopi Nation, is it not, that our earth, that which we walk on, is a living entity.
		Is that correct?
unidentified		That's correct, yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Living in the sense...
unidentified		Living in the very same sense as mankind.
		The arrogance, I believe, and I speak only for myself, but the arrogance of the civilized world and the civilized man suggests that life only is to be respected if it is similar to our own.
		Planet Earth, Mother Earth, is no different in its makeup than mankind.
		I mean, Mother Earth is neutrons, electrons, protons.
		I'm trying to give a scientific description here, and so is man.
		The difference is the way in which these minute particles are put together.
		Mother Earth simply has the particles constructed in a fashion that mankind simply refuses to acknowledge as life.
		I find man arrogant, even in the description a moment ago of the scentillotapes and what happened to those extraterrestrials.
		I mean, if we are going to treat beings from another place in that fashion, and then we treat Mother Earth in the fashion that we do, I find man highly arrogant in believing that he is the supreme being and refuses to acknowledge rocks, trees, plants, and animals as living entities.
		If I can explain, in the Hopi world there are figures that are called kachinas.
		We believe that they represent the essence, the soul, the spirit of everything which is around us.
		when they appear, for example, in the mesas or in the villages, they appear just as you and I do as human beings with a slightly different face, a slightly different head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Robert, I am...
		When we come back, I am going to read you what you are going to consider to be an extremely egotistical facts.
		And I want you to respond to it.
		So relax a few moments.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is Robert Morning Sky, a Native American of the Hopi Nation.
		and this from the high desert is dreamland East of the Rockies, you're on the air now with Robert Morning Sky.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, how you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		St. Louis, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to concur with Robert in terms of the earth being alive.
		And it is talked about in Christianity and Taoism.
		And if you're aware of Don Juan, he talked about exactly the same thing.
		And the main thing they concur on is that man gets his feet connected on the ground and is able to pull up energy through the ground.
		And consequently, this leads, as they say, from the mother to the father.
		And if you look to read, if you've ever heard of Edmund Bardo Zeckley, he interpreted a number of scene gospels.
		And the main thing that Christ talked about is through the mother, you reach the father.
		And he would go up and tell people to grab a tree.
		And consequently, energy would be coming up through the body.
		In Taoism, it goes into very great detail as to how to get your feet on the ground to get connected to the earth.
		And in Carlos Casanata talking about Don Juan, he said that the earth getting connected to it sued his whole being and taught him freedom.
		And when you talk about the earthly mother being the mother of the universe, that's not true.
		If you look at Taoism, they say it's Yin and Yang.
		Even in all religions, to talk about God as the unspeakable.
		The energy that comes forth from that is you look at Indian religion, it's Siva and Shakti, and it's an interplay between male and female or just opposite the creation.
		That is not the creator itself, that comes from the creator.
		And you can look at it, whether it's Hinduism or Vedanta or Christianity, that's all true.
		And you might, believe me, if you just look at these things, if you talk about appreciation of the Mother Earth, it's a matter in terms of all these religions.
		I can give you the name of the books and wherever you want to look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's all right.
unidentified		It's being connected to the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're going to have to hold it there.
unidentified		I take it, Robert, you concur generally with that.
		Yes, and again, I do want to clarify that I do not in any way wish to portray that the creator of the universe is a female.
		Again, let me clarify, it is the creator of earth and man that the Hoki say is a creator.
		The creator essence is given generally a masculine role, but in fact does have a female counterpart.
		There's a fine distinction in what I did say.
		But I do generally concur with what you have said.
		Absolutely.
		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Maybe we can squeeze one quick one in.
		You're on the air with Robert Morning Sky.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		California, Bert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, real quick.
unidentified		Mr. Morningsky, from what I understand, you're saying with the cycle that's about ready to happen, is that because of some malevolence on the part of mankind, or is it just a normal cycle of nature?
		I hate to attribute it to nature.
		I would simply say that it is a natural part of the rhythm of the existence in our universe, and that's very simplistic.
		I can't hesitate, but man is not causing it.
		Man just happens to be at that cusp where the change is going to occur.
		It is part of the natural rhythm of the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's something.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Robert Morning's guy, stay right there.
		He's our guest.
		And what a program it is.
		Dreamland.
		If you want to order our newsletter, get through.
		1-800-8.
unidentified		This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
		Please do not call.
		From the Kingdom of Nine.
		You're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely is.
		One more time, please, with emphasis, our newsletter that is going to have a remarkable photograph of a comet called Hailbob out beyond the orbit of Jupiter taken with a 90-inch telescope in the next newsletter.
		The newsletter price is getting ready to go up.
		At this moment, you may subscribe at the present price of $29.95.
		It's going to be going to $39.95.
		That is a one-year subscription.
		Don't let it go.
		Get on the phone now and keep at it until you get through.
		The number is 1-800-917-4278.
		1-800-917-4278.
		Still time to get the edition with the photograph of the comet.
		And in a moment, of what I promise you is going to be a remarkable segment with our guest, Robert Morningsky, the Native American of the Hopi Nation, because I have the person who sent the facts, Steve, from Santa Barbara, on the line.
		He sent another one.
		This time he sent a phone number, so I called it.
		Steve is here.
		The one of the more remarkable Robert, are you there?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		This facts, very interesting.
		Dear Art, Gordon Michael Scallion has stated in one of his newsletters, quote, shortly in 1996 or seven, a great gathering of elder and young heart-centered warriors shall convene in the southwest.
		Here, prophecies of old and new shall be revealed, brought forth by both women and men.
		Please ask your guest if he knows of any plans.
		When, where?
unidentified		Again, hesitantly, yes, I am aware.
		It is not appropriate for me to, and I believe most of your listeners will understand, this is their place, this is their circle, and it would certainly not be my place to announce or say where this would occur.
		This properly belongs to the elders who are holding the circle.
		So I can only say, yes, I do.
		I am aware, but it is not my place to speak of those things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The man who wrote the early facts, who you've mentioned now several times, Steve in Santa Barbara, the man who believes the earth is but an inert rock.
		I just happened to be able to get him on the line.
		Steve, you're on the air with Robert Morning Sky.
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, speak up good and loud for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get close to the phone and go ahead.
unidentified		How's it?
		Fine.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I took the facts.
unidentified		I think the facts pretty much contained a good sampling of what I had to rebut to what Mr. Morning Sky had said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why don't you do it yourself?
unidentified		Well, I will condense it real simply.
		Mr. Morningsky, I still say that you've presented no cogent argument to me in any form whatsoever that the Earth is alive.
		If you want to maintain that the Earth and the universe and atoms are somehow powered by mysterious forces that we do not yet understand and that life as we know it organisms fit within that, I'll accept that argument, but you've still presented nothing to me to say that the Earth is relative to a living organism in its ability to metabolize,
		to reproduce, and to survival, maintain its Survival and have its survival instinct based on active activity?
		I can only respond with two very brief comments.
		One, I suppose, what is at issue is the definition of what is living and alive.
		I do not believe that what we human beings have either put in encyclopedias or in dictionaries has a definition.
		I do not believe that that is appropriate.
		And secondly, I absolutely agree.
		I don't believe that there is anything I can ever say or do.
		I don't believe there's anything that you will ever see that would persuade you.
		And I respect that.
		And, you know, I am not here to convert.
		I believe that you have presented your position quite well.
		Hopefully, I have done the same.
		And the best that either one of us can do is to hope that listeners and whoever we speak to simply hear our story and then make a choice.
		Mr. Morris, sorry, you know, I kind of find it a little arrogant of you to assume that I have a very limited perception, that I couldn't possibly feel what you feel, the great mysterious power within this universe.
		I will vision quest with you anytime, anywhere in the world.
		You name the date and the place, and I'll fly there.
		I'm open to amazing possibilities.
		You don't know what's happened to me in my lifetime, so you certainly can't make conclusions about my perceptions.
		And if you want to say that, all you've done is, I feel, is present a suggestion that what we think of as life is not quite what it could or should be, that life contains more than what we think it is.
		And again, if that's what you think, say so, but don't say it's the same thing that makes me greater than a bowling ball.
		Because we're both a compilation of earthly materials, silicone, water, whatever matter you want to put into it.
		We're all atoms and molecules in the androns.
		But what is it that makes me greater than my bowling ball?
		What is it that gives me intelligence?
		What is it that gives me the ability to perceive my universe, register it, and communicate it with others of my type?
		And it's still, you presented nothing to say that the Earth is alive, merely that what we consider alive is much greater, that all the wonders of the universe are actually contained within living.
		And I still assert that you really are claiming that the Earth is speaking.
		You even said earlier that the Earth is hurting.
		Those were your words, and that probably the answer to why it's hurting is contained within your book that you're trying to self-inite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a matter of fact, Steve, that's a little unfair.
		I'm going to get him to promote his book because he hasn't even said a word about it.
		So I'm going to make him say a word about it in a moment, Steve.
		That comment was a little rough, I thought.
unidentified		Well, it's accurate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not accurate because he's not been peddling his book.
		I'm going to make him peddle it here in a little while.
		So as a matter of fact, while we're on the subject, we'll get to that.
		But would you like to respond one more time to Steve?
		If I were to respond to Steve, I would say it sounds to me like he is searching, like he is hurting.
		And I think that I share your view, Robert, and it's something that you feel at a very deep level or you don't, I guess.
unidentified		I want to thank Steve for presenting his thoughts and his perceptions and his reality.
		I will simply allow his statements to stand on their own and what I have said to stand on its own.
		I, again, do not believe that I will ever be able to show Steve what I would consider to be a truth.
		And I recognize that.
		I understand that.
		I choose not to participate in either a name-calling or a put-down of philosophies.
		I'm a storyteller.
		I'm simply presenting a story.
		If he chooses to reject it, that's quite all right.
		I'm not going to try and persuade him.
		If others can look around them and see what I see, that's quite all right, too.
		So I would say I would allow Steve's words to stand on their own, and I would allow my own words to stand on my own, and allow the rest of the world to make their own decisions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, his were presented with kind of a tinge of anger, perhaps in reaction to what he senses may be true, but just does not want to accept.
		People frequently react, I notice, in these arenas with anger.
		Now I'm going to do exactly what I just said I was going to do.
		And anyway, here's the facts.
		Art, be sure and get the information about his workshop lecture in the Seattle area that he's holding within a few weeks.
		He mentioned this, but I've not gotten any information, phone numbers or addresses or anything.
		Be sure you get it.
		So let's get it.
unidentified		Where are you going to be in Seattle and so forth?
		I have been very fortunate that I have been invited up to Seattle and Yelm, and I'll be in Mount Shasta all within the next couple of weeks.
		My appearance schedule, again, I've been very fortunate.
		I can only, at this point, since the list is quite lengthy, I do have a contact number that individuals can call either for existing lectures and workshops or if they would care to invite or ask for us to participate later on in the program or whenever I can certainly give you a contact number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, give it on the air.
unidentified		The contact number is in care of the Terra project.
		It's area code 6029966324.
		They can call that number.
		We can mail out the schedule.
		We are booked between here and the early part of next year.
		They can also get information on a book and some other information that we are publishing.
		And again, we're simply trying to present a story that is most certainly based in Native America, but I believe applies to the contemporary.
		I Do not choose to try to persuade anyone, but simply tell a story that hopefully it fits in with what they see is going on around them.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've written, I guess I'd call it a white paper.
		I don't know what you'd call it.
		It's called the Tara Papers.
		That's what you talk about.
		And how could a person get hold of that?
unidentified		They can contact us through that number, and we would be happy to send them information on the Tara Papers.
		And we actually have some subsequent papers and data that we make available.
		All right, and then is there a cost associated with it?
		We're asking the, essentially our cost to get this out is $10 for the Tara papers.
		And that's put into additional research.
		And we actually take people out into the field for them to see the glyphs, for them to see the circles.
		And we ask them simply to witness and then allow them to make a judgment call somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That number is area code 602-996-6324.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, should they call during the day, business hours, or 24 hours?
unidentified		The phone does function during normal business hours.
		Should they call after hours?
		And if there's one of the researchers in the office, they will answer.
		If not, there is a message machine.
		They can leave their name and number.
		We will get in touch with them.
		Or if they leave their address, we will send them the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Robert, hold on.
		We'll be right back.
		You're right in the middle of Dreamland.
		On the air, huh?
unidentified		Yeah, I was talking with a telescope distributing place today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And asked them about the Comet 2, and they got information on it.
unidentified		And they said it was first detected in 93.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I'm hearing so many stories right now.
		I mean, it's called Hail Bop because it was just discovered by Hale and Bop.
unidentified		They said on the 23rd of July.
unidentified		Yeah, well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so what now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This telescope distributor is making claims that Hale and Bopp were not the first?
unidentified		Something to that effect.
unidentified		Let's see, the Daily Telegraph, they reported it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And Sky and Telescope is also supposed to report it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look, everybody's almost on it now.
unidentified		Okay, I was looking at Sky and Telescope and a copy of the most recent Daily Telegraph, and I didn't see anything.
unidentified		Which issues were they in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
		I don't have it.
		It was just, you know, this was on the wire services, so I would imagine it'll probably be whatever the next issue is.
unidentified		And they're saying it's just bigger than something that hasn't been detected that far away before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's say it's only a tenth the size that they're worried it might be.
unidentified		It would still be gigantic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And let's say that it misses the Earth, but heads toward the Earth's path.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may come close enough to the sun so that it will be the astronomical event of all time.
unidentified		Yeah, it'll do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it's Gordon Michael's second son.
unidentified		Time to sell comet builds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look, there'll be comet hats, comet t-shirts, endo-dee world t-shirts.
		You name it.
		Everybody will get going on this one soon.
		We just happen to be on it a little bit earlier than most.
unidentified		Okay?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call.
		Maybe we should be in comet t-shirts now.
		What would be a good slogan to put on a comet t-shirt?
		Unbelievable, huh?
unidentified		Well, actually, it is.
		I heard the same story on Rush Limbaugh late in the week last week.
		Mm-hmm.
		And he checked it out, and it was written as a satire in a magazine.
		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brinkley reported it on Sunday as a fact.
unidentified		Well, I like I said, Rush had pretty much the same reaction you did.
		And he got to the stores, or went to the stores, he said, and it was written.
		It was not true.
		It didn't actually happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, if that's true, then thank goodness.
		Because can our society have degenerated to that point?
		Thankfully, and hopefully, you're right, and it is not.
		But I can't say that I'm convinced by your call only because ABC and Brinkley reported it on Sunday.
		Had it been exposed as some sort of untrue story, you would think certainly by Sunday, ABC would have had that word.
unidentified		True.
		It makes you wonder about ABC, or makes me wonder about ABC.
		Oh, okay.
		Really, that's all I had.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you very much.
		And I don't know.
		I still kind of lean toward it being true.
		And you just can't imagine Brinkley would have reported that.
		Robert, here comes yet another caller.
		You're on the air east of the Rockies.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Yes, this is Mike from Lincoln, Katuck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Mike.
unidentified		Yes, you were speaking earlier about your step-grandfather, I believe, that had come across a crash site and actually found a being that they nursed back to health.
		What became of that?
		What happened to the creature and what was the relationship and how did that end up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the rest of the story.
unidentified		Good question.
		Thank you, yes.
		I mean, the purpose of my spending this year in going to the public and telling the story is that I think the timing is crucial.
		It is part of the ending of the cycle.
		The relationship was rather odd in that the star being in communicating, and it's a long story in how it occurred, but in communicating with my grandfather and the other five, essentially began to describe what I would call the warrior disciplines, the warrior ways of beings in the stars.
		And what my grandfather and his friends discovered was that many of the Native American warrior ways, for example the use of a vision quest, the use of something as Simple as a feather.
		Some of the techniques that were used in war were in fact born in the stars.
		And for my grandfather and the others, this was confirmation that all of the ancient legends that we were born in the stars and that our ways came down to us from the stars was confirmation to them.
		Now, if you then turn around and look at this being who my grandfather and the others called the Star Elder out of respect for his wisdom and certainly that he came from the stars, the star elder, the being, found himself in a primitive society.
		He found himself in a savage world.
		Now, if you were to land in the center of the deepest, darkest jungle and suddenly these primitives walk up to you and using stones they begin to play this little game called Nintendo.
		Certainly you're going to be astonished at where did you get this and how did you know?
		So there was surprise on both ends because a star being sees primitives practicing star ways and primitives see a star being confirming that their ways in fact are born in the stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well we don't have a lot of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what became of the creature?
unidentified		The star elder remained for a short period of time.
		He returned.
		I will say that he has returned at least twice since 1947.
		There is an ongoing relationship with a handful of Native Americans, and again, not wanting to get into depth, but he is alive.
		He is well, and continues to make contact when necessary because of the situation that occurs here on planet Earth and the ending of the cycle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The ending of the cycle.
		You know, I wish I didn't believe that.
		Somehow, I worry about the ending of the cycle.
		Robert, you seem to be prepared for it, rejoicing in it, and I wish I could adopt that same attitude, and maybe I need to study more.
		Robert, standby.
		We're breaking here at the top of the hour.
		Robert Morning Sky, a Native American of the Hopi Nation, is our guest.
		And we are honored to have him, as we are you.
unidentified		This, from the high desert, is dreamland.
		From the Kingdom of Nive, you're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely is, and I want to repeat this announcement.
		It's really a big one.
		We have a new image of the Halebop comet.
		And I want to thank Paul again in Houston for getting it to me.
		Thank you, Paul.
		The image was obtained, so that you know, from Kit Peake using a Stewart Observatory 90-inch telescope.
		A L'Oral 2K times 2K CCD was exposed for 30 seconds while the telescope tracked LBOP.
		It is a very serious image, and we want to give credit properly to Dave Harvey and Stewart Observatory.
		This image is now on our bulletin board, and you can get to it by calling area code 702 if you have a computer now.
		702-727-1709.
		702-727-1709.
		If you have a computer, it's called comet1.gif.
		Now, if you don't have a computer, it is, I can tell you, because I sent it personally by computer to the publisher who will have it in the next newsletter.
		Along, I might add, with the image of the crystal skull, Max, and a photograph of my studio, the one from which I'm transmitting at this very moment.
		You can get the newsletter.
		It's $29.95 a year, and how you could possibly wait any longer, I don't know.
		Every month it gets bigger and better.
		And we're going to keep putting this kind of information into it.
		The number to order the newsletter right now, and you just please keep trying, 1-800-917-4278.
		1-800-917-4278.
		It's called the Art Bell After Dark newsletter.
		And I think that would be certainly an appropriate title for it.
		All right.
		Let me again mention to you UFOFACs.
		Now, if you listen to this kind of material, and I know you do.
unidentified		I bet he would, actually.
		He's a very nice man.
		He probably is.
		So I just want to mention one other thing.
		It's got 300 photos in it.
		And it took us forever to put this thing together.
		Twelve countries and a lot of film, and I think that people might enjoy looking at it.
		And if anybody has some strange ritual facts or ideas or anything that could help me in my quest for sort of a universal field theory of ritualism and mythology, they can send it care of Llewellyn.
		I answer all my letters, and I'd love to hear from people who are also involved in these kinds of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and so they would send it in care of the publisher.
		Correct.
		All right, off we go to a land you mentioned someplace in Louisiana.
		Hello there.
		You're on the air.
		Where are you calling from, actually?
unidentified		I'm calling from Chalmet, Louisiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		It's about two or three miles outside of New Orleans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
		Hold on.
		First of all, let me say I really enjoy your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		And I listen to you every Sunday night.
		Well, what station would pick you up in Laurel, Mississippi?
		Do you know offhand?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't even know where that is in Mississippi.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have stations there, but I, you know.
unidentified		You do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I sure do, but I'm not familiar with exactly where that is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it anywhere near...
unidentified		Okay, that's okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'll hear us.
unidentified		That's okay, because I just wanted to let my son know because he wanted to tune in too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		Okay, well, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you.
		I guess no specific question.
unidentified		Hey, your voice is heard everywhere.
unidentified		If that's not magic, I don't know what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is kind of magic, actually.
unidentified		It is.
		It's magic.
		A hundred years ago, they would have said it was unbelievable magic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd have burned me with you?
unidentified		Probably.
unidentified		I suspect we're kindred souls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Denny Sargent.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		My name is Diane.
		I'm calling from Maraga, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Diane.
unidentified		And my question is, Mr. Sargent, do you have any books or resources that you would recommend in addition to your own?
		Absolutely.
		I am by no means the greatest author in the world.
		As I said in the beginning of my book, I stand on the shoulders of giants.
		I would recommend Iliad, who's written numerous books on mythology.
		I'm going to give you some authors.
		I would recommend Carl Jung, especially his real basic book that's for everybody called Man and His Symbols.
		Oh, yes.
		Yeah, I'm sure you've recognized it.
		That was wonderful.
		Exactly.
		And I recommend, of course, blah, blah, blah.
		I'm losing my mind now.
		Joseph Campbell, and his video series is fabulous.
		And any of his works are fantastic.
		There's some other people like Eric Newman who people are not too familiar with.
		He wrote a book called The Great Mother, which is a survey of goddesses throughout history, which is fantastic.
		And this is a relatively new field.
		It's kind of a mixing of psychology and anthropology and history.
		And I'm trying to take it a step further into the field of ritual.
		It's relatively hard.
		I mean, global ritualism is my attempt, but it's not a particularly scholarly work.
		It's really for just average people.
		Most of it was off the top of my head just from years and years of reading and research and traveling.
		There's not a lot of, for example, there's not a lot of footnotes, historical footnotes in my book.
		All right, ma'am, there you go.
		All right, thank you very much.
		Thank you.
		Oh, good luck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, let's talk for a second.
		Do you know, for some reason, Danny, I have a lot of witches that listen to me, and I don't mean just on this program, you would imagine that, but on my other as well.
		And I'm constantly getting faxes from them.
		Now, is not witchcraft full of every sort of ritualism?
		It's rich in ritualism, is it not?
unidentified		I've met a number of witches.
		I've been to a number of pagan and witchcraft circles in America and pagan circles in all different countries around the world.
		And what witchcraft is, is, in spirit, it's a continuation of pre-Christian European paganism.
		Historically, there's not a lot of actual stuff that has been continually practiced.
		Most of it, what it is now, is a kind of revival of the faith of European paganism.
		But what you're finding is that a lot of witches and quote-unquote New Age people and a lot of people who are listening to your show, what they're doing is what I call eclectic ritualism.
		The whole second part of my book is called eclecticizing or eclectic ritual.
		And this is a movement that I'm seeing, and I think the witches personify that.
		Wicca or witchcraft personifies that really well.
		But I'm seeing it all through the spectrums of New Age, of Jungianism, of every kind of group that is looking for a kind of global vision of what is going on out there.
		I kind of coined the term eclectic ritualism, which is people, you know, people sampling Tibetan Buddhism, people going like yourself to Thai temples and getting some kind of feeling or experience, people going to Hopi ceremonies, people having some Hopi sage in their house and using that ritual, maybe having Tibetan prayer flags using those, maybe carrying a cross that their mother gave them.
		This is eclectic ritualism, and this, I think, to be honest with you, is the great unspoken movement that's sweeping through America right now.
		And I kind of put a label on it.
		And in global ritualism, I kind of addressed it.
		And I don't really claim to be unique, but I guess I have a lot of friends and a lot of context in many different levels.
		I know witches.
		I know many different kinds of Christians.
		I know a lot of New Age people.
		I know a lot of psychics.
		I know a lot of academics.
		I know a lot of psychologists.
		And they're all really doing the same kinds of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		And yoga classes are being held at my Lutheran church.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As I said, that's what's bothering me more than anything else, Denny, is that so many of these people are seeing and saying so many similar things that individually you can dismiss them.
		Collectively, you do so at your own peril.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Denny Sargent.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off.
		That's number one.
		Always turn your radio off.
		Tell us where you're calling from.
		Well, now he must have gone to turn his radio off.
unidentified		Well, just as a quick note, do you know what I think the greatest religious movement is right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's the World Wide Web.
		I do.
		Oh, Denny.
unidentified		Because religion means, the root of religion is the Greek word relagios, which means to relake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Having said that and not wanting to expand on it, Pauler, are you there?
		Hello, Caller.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're on the air, sir.
unidentified		Okay, hi, this is Mike, Detroit Lakes, Minnesota.
		In fact, the madness that you mentioned earlier will come to an end.
		But I also have to say that my heart, it hurts.
		It pains to think that there will be those, because they refuse to look around them, they cover their eyes with blinders, are not going To be able to see what is going on, and I can only suggest that the comet, the eclipse, and what is going to occur between now and its appearance, I would suggest that we just let it speak for itself.
		And if it doesn't seem to speak with the thunder, I would be surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's one other fact seems relevant.
		Art, would you please ask for your guest if he is aware of Terence McKenna's time wave?
		It is a map of time derived from the Chinese I Ching, or a book of changes, and claims the end of time to be December 21st, 2012, from Pam and Jeff in Eugene, Oregon.
unidentified		Thank you.
		No, I'm completely ignorant of that, and again, can only suggest that it is a major coincidence, or again, we just simply allow it to speak with me.
		Hello.
		Good evening, Mr. Cobb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Excuse me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		All right.
		I'd like to ask your guest if he made the comment that the creator of the universe is female because of the white buffalo that was born and it's born female.
		Correct?
		No, not exactly.
		What I said was that in the Hopi way, the creator of Earth and man is a female.
		In fact, the creator of the universe is Taiowa.
		It has several different names, but is in fact a male essence.
		And so just a slight distinguishing of what I said earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that help you, Color?
unidentified		No, well, my thought was going to be made this, but is your guest familiar with Jeremiah chapter 44, verse 15 through 27?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		And I'm afraid I can't give you an opportunity for him to become familiar at this moment.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Robert Morning Sky.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		East of the Rockies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where?
unidentified		Boston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're Boston.
		Well, you're on our West of the Rockies line, so thanks for the shot.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Robert Morning Sky.
unidentified		Hello, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here, turn your radio off, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And please also tell us.
unidentified		Yes, I'm calling from Memphis, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		First time caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, first of all, I think Robert and his grandfather both are right on the money.
		Thank you.
		And I have to ask you, though, have there been any, let's say, a meeting of the minds, so to speak, between the medicine man and that being?
		I'm not sure what you mean by meeting of the minds.
		The being that was on the, in the Hopai Nation, did he talk or communicate with the medicine man?
		Yes.
		Well, I don't want to imply that all medicine men, but a handful and literally less than a dozen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that is indeed remarkable.
		All right.
		A lot of people trying to get hold of you, so we'll just keep moving.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Robert Morning Sky.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Madison, Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Thank you very much for having him on, Art.
		Sure.
		Robert, you know, we in the Western tradition have been raised with pretty much pitiful preparedness for the upcoming events.
		I mean, the meek shall inherit the earth is about all we've got to rest on.
		And I'm wondering, number one, do Hopis believe in reincarnation?
		And if so, what do Hopis believe they should be doing to prepare for this versus what can the rest of us do to get ready for this besides maybe go and live in the woods and try to be self-sufficient?
		Okay.
		Again, I do not want to speak for the Hopi nation.
		That is not appropriate.
		But again, in drawing from Hopi tradition, reincarnation, as I believe most people speak of it, says that in essence, what you do in this life dictates what will occur or what your life will be like when you return to this planet in the future.
		The difficulty with that concept is that the Hopi do not generally believe that reincarnation demands a return to this planet.
		In fact, you could end up on a far distant star.
		You could end up on a planet in another galaxy, perhaps in another universe.
		The simplest explanation of Hopi transmigration, the changing of planes of existence, simply says that if you are a chief on this earthly plane, that in going through the door to the next existence, that you will be a chief in that plane.
		So in that regard, yes, what you do here does dictate what you will do there.
		Whether you will be punished or elevated in essence depends on your wisdom as opposed to an outside agency judging.
		I'm sorry, and the second part of the question was what does, I'm sorry, what was it?
		It has to do with what we can do to prepare.
		For example, I wonder whether all the Hopi will be gathering at the Third Mesa and where are all of us lousy white folks supposed to go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no.
unidentified		I would never use the terminology, lousy white folk.
		But, you know, curiously, there is a story that in this end cycle that there will be a messenger who returns from the heavens.
		He is known as Bahana, and in fact is known as the White Brothers.
		Some literally interpret this as a white-skinned brother.
		But again, in referring back to the White Buffalo, I would say that this is the pure essence of a brother and can only speak for myself and say this is the presence of a star being.
		I'm not sure I can attribute this to the star elder that my grandfather's familiar with, but certainly it could be the precursor to the visit of another star being.
		I would only suggest that in order to expand one's awareness, one has to toss away the blinders.
		If I can take a moment and hopefully in this analogy explain it better.
		If you see a bear, you may ask one individual, what do you see?
		And this individual will say that this is a gentle, compassionate beast of nature.
		And if you were to ask another being, another person, they would say, well, this is a nasty, rotten, evil carnivore.
		Now, the question that I would suggest is, which is the truth, capital T-H-E.
		Is it the gentle beast?
		Is it the carnivore?
		I can only, and very briefly suggest, one individual's truth is that it is a gentle beast of nature.
		The other individual's truth is that it is a carnivore.
		What I am going to suggest is the truth is the bear, which has no, it does not care what others choose to label it or see it as.
		It simply is.
		And in the workshops we conduct and when we take people out on the quest, what we are trying to say is you need to set aside all your experiences, all your judgments, all your learning, and simply open your eyes to the bear.
		And you will see that at times it is gentle, and at times it is not.
		We need to, in the workshops I've been approached and say, oh, we need to learn, we need to gain greater wisdom.
		I am going to suggest that in fact we do not need to learn, but to unlearn that which we have been saddled with.
		We need to open our eyes instead of to blindly accept what is described as in front of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Robert, I want to ask you a question myself.
		It's about the nature of our soul.
		Obviously, the Hobi believe as we believe there is a soul, something that lives beyond the physical body.
		From your description, it sounded like reincarnation, but not quite.
		You seem to believe there's a big cosmic bowl of soup, sort of containing not just multicultures, but multi-species, and that one might come back, as you said, on a very distant, very distant star.
		Is that right?
unidentified		That's correct, sir.
		I can only suggest, and it's probably dangerous in a very brief period of time, to say that there is out there an essence of which we have been born, whether one chooses to call it God or some other title, I leave that to the individual.
		But I can only suggest that we choose, and in our workshops we talk about Earth 101.
		We have chosen to experience life on this plane.
		Some of us choose to be males, some choose to be females, some choose to be doctors, lawyers, attorneys.
		I mean, there are numerous things.
		But it is much like a university.
		We have chosen to be in this place to learn what we feel we need.
		Having completed that course, it may be necessary to repeat the course.
		It may be necessary, having been a male doctor, to return and now become a female doctor.
		I don't believe punishment has anything to do with it, karma that has turned against us.
		I think it is a learning process that we do have a connection far out there, and this is our learning process.
		This is our Earth 101.
		And perhaps at some point, the only way that we can understand peace or wisdom or awareness is if, in fact, we live and taste a life where there is madness, where there is chaos, where we are, in fact, murderers and rapists and cruel, vicious beings.
		Perhaps some of us actually need to experience that in order to learn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the taste is certainly strong in my mouth.
		Hold on just one moment.
		Robert Morning Sky, we are honored to have him as a guest, the Native American of the Hopi Nation.
		We'll take more calls in a moment.
		Minnie!
unidentified		Of course, Central Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pardon me for the Amendment.
		I wish I didn't have to hear all this baloney.
		But I hope you get something out of this program, and I'm glad you called.
unidentified		Can I ask you one more thing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		This idea of what is time, couldn't it simply be described as a form of knowing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, or perhaps consciousness is the perception of time, Doctor?
dr chet snow ▲ ● ▼		Yes, definitely.
		I think that time is a layer of consciousness.
		It's a degree of consciousness.
		And since we're, I feel, here all about learning in some way or another, we are here, in fact, to learn about time as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good answer.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Snow.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Terry from Monterey, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Monterey, beautiful place, yes.
unidentified		Very much so.
unidentified		Doctor, when one has what one would call deja vu, those moments where you think, I have seen this before, or even moments where you can consciously remember seeing something that you know is going to happen and then it does shortly in your life, is that a part of future progression?
dr chet snow ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is, or the deja vu often is a, in a sense, a past experience coming back, an echo of somewhere you may have been already and you recognize it again.
dr chet snow ▲ ● ▼		The kind of precognition, which is the second form, frequently comes when your mind, which at different levels of consciousness can go outside of linear time, shoots forward to present to you an event or a feeling, an emotion, or sometimes even a face of an individual that will be an important player in your learning process in your life.
unidentified		Okay, so then we generally should look upon that as something that we should think about.
dr chet snow ▲ ● ▼		I think it's something that you ought to take into consideration.
dr chet snow ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't change everything because you had such an experience because sometimes the mind plays tricks on us.

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