Art Bell

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July 16, 1995 - Art Bell

01:40:10

Dreamland with Art Bell - Kevin Randle - Alien Abduction- The Afterlife - James R. Lewis

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39:55

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linda moulton howe

03:33

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		expert on crop circle and animal mutilation phenomena.
		And her studies extend in many directions.
		Item number two is item number two.
		I talk about people as though they're items.
		They are not.
		Kevin Randall will give us a short little report.
		He too has seen some of the Roswell footage that we talk so much about and so look forward to that.
		Then our main guest will be James R. Lewis who wrote the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
		That should be interesting indeed.
		Forward by Raymond Moody, Dr. Moody, who has also been on the program.
		And as you well know, one of my favorite subjects.
		Right now to Philadelphia, and as usual, here she is, Linda Howe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Roy, you really do have a lineup.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I do, yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, a month ago, if you remember, I played on Dreamland the sounds of the alleged Bigfoot in the Snohomish, Washington area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will never, never forget it, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, stand by because I'm going to let our listeners hear a little bit to it again because I've had a very interesting response from a woman up in Washington who, upon hearing what I'm just going to play here in a moment, contacted you and you forwarded the letter to me and I have talked with her and it's a very interesting interview.
		And it's current.
		Now what I'm going to play now is from the 70s after two people there saw long-haired primate-looking creatures over eight feet tall associated with these sounds.
unidentified		Here they come.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
		Linda, Linda, I should have, I was grabbing for a tape as you were about to do that, and I didn't make it in time.
		I tell you, that sound stands the hair on the back of my neck straight up.
		God, that's awful.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It's really something, and I'll make you a dub, I promise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, please, by all means, I want that sound.
		I mean, that's just, I'll use that on my Halloween show.
		My God, that's awful.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		After that broadcast, I received a letter that you fact from a 29-year-old woman in Forks, Washington who wrote, and this is a quote, I live in a fairly remote area of the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State here Forks, Washington, and about four miles inland from the coast.
		Shortly after moving here in the summer of 1993, I heard the same whale that you played on Dreamland.
		And several times since then, I have heard that same sound as well, meaning up to the current year.
		I have also seen numerous strange nocturnal moving lights since moving here to the Olympic Peninsula.
		Well, I called to talk to her about the Bigfoot sounds, and I also learned that she encountered in full consciousness, completely wide awake, in her father's home in Fort Washington, what was described from her point of view as a non-human-looking gray-colored being or beings.
		And I want you now to hear her story in an area where she has also heard these strange sounds.
		So here is our writer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
unidentified		For a while, I lived actually in the city of Fork before I moved out here at Hillary.
		And there were some unusual happenings, and I became frightened, and I went to stay with my father for a while.
		And while I was staying with my father, I had an abduction experience, and I quite clearly remember what is typically described as grave coming into my father's home.
		I was sitting on a chair, and I was dozing.
		And I suddenly, I felt a presence, or I heard something behind me.
		I don't know what eluded me, and I turned, and there was someone standing behind me.
		And at the moment, I mean, at that point, I didn't even know it was anything unusual.
		I thought there was an intruder in the house, because I didn't get a good look.
		And I ran for the front door to get out of the house, because I thought there was an intruder in that house.
		And between starting up toward the front door and getting to the front door, another one just appeared in front of the door, and I ran into it.
		I didn't really not touch it, you know.
		As you see, I just couldn't stop in time because I was getting full tilt.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It ran into something that was very solid.
unidentified		Oh yeah, it was a being standing there, just as solid as a person, except it was a human.
		And I turned around and there was another, another one.
		And anyway, there was a little scuffle, and the first one came over and touched my head or my neck with some device.
		And then I couldn't move.
		After that, I was totally I mean, I just couldn't move.
		In fact, I think I lost consciousness for a moment.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What did the one feel like that you ran into?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Trump's temperature and skin and all or clothing or whatever?
unidentified		No, it strange.
		I never thought of that.
		I think it was a little cooler than normal.
		I felt kind of trapped again.
		But it was actually it was like it was wearing some kind of protective something.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Any kind of visible clothes or Ms or anything?
unidentified		I think it it's hard to tell I was here yet, but I I think they were wearing clothing yet.
		That's the impression I had is that what I was seeing was clothing.
		It was like it was all covering them for tight to tell.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They wore like a leotard or something?
unidentified		I would almost compare it to um um what divers would wear.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Oh really?
unidentified		Um you know like some kind of clothing but it was like protective to.
		I'm not absolutely certain.
		I mean the skin.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Uh everything about the eyes.
unidentified		They were large and dark and um and I tried to avoid looking at in the eyes as much as possible.
		I think it seemed the smart thing to do.
		Uh how tall were they?
		Uh okay The first one and the one in front of the door were approximately my height, and I'm about 5'3.
		The one that I turned around and it was came about to my shoulders a little shorter.
		Yeah, it was substantially shorter.
		And during the whole experience, there appeared to be two kinds, the ones that were about my height and the ones that were about the height of my shoulder.
		The ones that were about my height appeared to be in charge, and the other ones weren't.
		Okay?
		And once you were paralyzed, what happened?
		When I was paralyzed, I was laying on the ground and I lost consciousness for a little bit.
		And then the next thing I remember is I was standing up behind the apron to his moving stand sitting in.
		And I looked across the room and this one beside the door, he was still standing beside the door, so I guess not too much time had passed.
		And he was looking at a stone, a stone little figurine of an elephant from a knick-knack milk.
		And this was really weird.
		He picked it up in his hand, but instead of moving his hand to get the different views he wanted, he stretched and bobbed his head, which was really weird.
		It was like a flood or something.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		He stretched and bobbed his head like around the object?
unidentified		Um, yeah, not totally around it.
		I mean, he moved his hand a little bit.
		He couldn't get to the back side of it that way, but he tended to move his head rather than his hand if he wanted to see like the side of it or something.
		Which was really weird.
		But, you know, he moved his hand some because, you know, he's not like he could stretch his neck all the way on the other side or anything.
		And then I walked into the kitchen.
		I was being escorted.
		And then I don't remember anything else until I was in a room.
		And I was either undressing or being undressed.
		I'm not sure which.
		I do remember dropping my cloak on the floor and staying on a table because I wanted to be annoying.
		And then one of them walked in the room and was just giving me a heck telling me I would behave myself and I would do as I was told, et cetera, et cetera.
		And then I walked out into a hallway and then there's a gap in memory again until I got to a room with a table on it, in it.
		And there was some small ones in there and there was some kind of medical experiment done.
		And I'm not entirely sure about that.
		I get a little confused about that.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So there's much more to this woman's story, clearly, but she has never done hypnosis.
		I think it's especially interesting that she describes seeing this being's head moving up and down around the object.
		Other abductees have described a kind of insect-like cocking of the head from side to side in other encounters, whether it be called by hypnosis or not.
		So that's another part of her story that I think matches what some other people have reported.
		And I think it's ironic that people like this woman are encountering face-to-face live non-human beings in 1995, or at least that's what they think that they're encountering, while controversy rages so much about the alleged 1947 autopsy film of alien beings taken that long ago from the Roswell crash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have news on that front, and I know that you are going to England.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When are you going to be there?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to leave on the 7th, and I'll be there at the 8th, and during that month, hopefully I can each Sunday keep giving back the best reports ranging from whatever's happening over there concerning the Santelli film to what's going on with Crop Circle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's excellent.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And then it's off to jolly Old England.
		Great.
		All right, Linda.
		Wonderful.
		Thank you for the report.
		We've got your commercial coming up.
		So they'll find out how to get a hold of everything.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Linda.
		Take care.
		Linda Howe, and she'll be back with us next week.
		And so that you might know a little bit about Linda Howe.
unidentified		If you enjoy Dreamlands, weekly news segments by Linda Moulton Howe, which features updates about mysterious phenomena, then you might want to know more about her books and documentaries.
		Linda Howe is an Emmy Award-winning television producer, writer, and researcher of Earth mysteries linked to non-human intelligences.
		Her books and videos provide scientific data and first-hand eyewitnesses.
		Linda Moulton Howe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk to Kevin Randall, co-author of The Truth About the UFO crash at Roswell.
		And while we're on that track, you all should know, all the Dreamland people should know, that I am now in contact via the internet with Ray Santilli, the man who has the film from which the stills that are available on our bulletin board service and the internet and cyberspace generally are the five stills of the alien creature, the autopsy.
		And Ray sends me a message back saying simply I'd be happy to be a guest on your talk show and gives me his office telephone number in London.
		And we're going to call him tomorrow and we're going to get that all set up.
		Depending on the time difference, it may be on this show or on my regular syndicated show.
		But an interview with Race Antille is in the works.
		Also, you should know that I've got a forensic pathology report or a report on that movie as seen by a forensic pathologist named Dr. Milroy on the photographs that you're talking about.
		I'll try and fit that into the show someplace this evening, but it's very packed, and here's part of that pack right now.
		Kevin Randall.
		Kevin, hi.
		Hi, how are you?
		Where are you, Kevin?
unidentified		I'm in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
unidentified		But as you know, I do, and I think I can say this, I do a radio program on KTSM because they also carry Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And You have co-authored a book, right, Kevin?
unidentified		Well, I co-authored a book called The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell with Don Schmidt.
unidentified		I've also published another book called A History of UFO Crashes that just came out in May.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
unidentified		I probably ought to send you a copy, shouldn't I?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You really ought to, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have viewed part of the film, is that right?
unidentified		I have seen about eight or nine minutes of the film.
		I've seen part of the autopsy.
		I have seen them arranging debris in a tent or something like that.
		So I've seen parts of the film, and I've, of course, seen all the photographs that have been circulating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		I'd like your take on, You've seen them.
		Do they pretty well coincide with what you saw in the movie, or did you see a different segment?
unidentified		No, the photographs are clearly from the autopsy scene taken, I guess they claim in Dallas 30 days after the crash.
unidentified		The photographs are clearly from that segment of the film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
		Well, at least we have that established.
		Now, your view of what you saw.
unidentified		I think we have to look at this.
		First of all, we have no providence for the film.
		I mean, Ray Santelli has not told us who the photographer is, so we cannot verify that existence.
		And because of that, we have to treat the film as a hoax until it's proved authentic.
		Just the opposite of what we have to do in a court where the defendant is innocent until proven guilty.
		So prove the film authentic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I get Ray on the show, you would say I ought to press him on who did the filming.
unidentified		This is critical.
		We have got to have the photographer.
		Clearly, if the film is authentic, the government knows who he is.
		How many photographers could they have had?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		But we must have the photographers so that we can establish the provenance of the film.
unidentified		This is absolutely critical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Kevin, that difficulty for a second aside, then your view of the film.
unidentified		The film I found intriguing in one respect.
		The shape of the head, the placement of the ears, the size of the eyes all relate to the eyewitness testimony we picked up from Roswell.
		But the creature is much too robust from what we've been told.
		The hands have too many digits on them.
		Clearly, there's six digits on the hands, and they're very long, slender digits.
		And I think the one advantage I had over a number of other people is we could stop the film, go back and look at it again.
		We could freeze frame it.
		We could study it at our leisure, as opposed to when the people went over to England, they just showed them the autopsy, and there it was, and at the end of it.
		So I got a chance to look at the film, and I was intrigued by the long fingers.
		Now, I'm not a pathologist, so the autopsy, when they showed the creature laid open on the slab, the internal organs didn't look human, but I saw no intestines, I saw no stomach.
		But that only means that those organs may have been already removed so that I didn't see them, and the organs I saw, I don't recognize.
		It could be gallbladders and spleens and kidneys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That may be Dr. Milroy, the pathologist who viewed the film, suggested when he saw the skull apart that he did see a brain, though blurry, it clearly did not seem to be, he said, a human brain.
unidentified		Well, the interesting thing is I've talked to a number of doctors who have seen the stills, and they studied the stills, and they said the instrumentation by the body is not the instrumentation you'd expect at an autopsy.
		There was a Bunsen burner in one of the photographs, and there's some test tubes, and you would think these are not things that would be there at an autopsy.
		The instrumentation should be different.
		There was no scale hanging down.
		The table didn't look like a normal autopsy table.
		There were no drains or anything like that on it.
		So there's still some questions that have to be answered about this film.
		There's some intriguing aspects of it, but as I say, we've got to look at it with a skeptical eye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's do that.
		I'm going to be speaking, apparently, with Mr. Santilli.
		Other than who photographed it, what else would you most like to ask Ray if you could ask him a question?
unidentified		What I would like to do, I think what's critical is we get a number of experts in there, and you spoke of one, a pathologist, to see if the procedures are proper for an autopsy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, any other questions for Ray Santilli?
unidentified		I think we need to establish the precise date and the precise location of the crash, as identified from the materials.
		Is President Truman in the film?
		Those rumors have circulated around that Truman is in the film.
		He's part of the autopsy.
		He's on the debris field.
		Is he, in fact, in the film?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we'll ask.
unidentified		I would like to see, and of course it's not a question that you can ask, but I would like to see some of the film stock analyzed because I understand that Kodak can tell when the image was laid on the film.
unidentified		So if we have film from 1947, but the image was laid down in 1990, clearly we have a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend, listen, we're out of time.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I really appreciate your assessment of what you saw, and we'll stay in touch, Kevin.
unidentified		Okay, thank you much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Kevin Randall, co-author of The Truth About the UFO crash at Roswell.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Dreamland.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Talk is cheap, so get your money's worth.
		We're at Talk 102.
		Picture this.
		You're gliding along the river aboard the 8255-1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Board the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly is Sunday evening, Dreamland underway.
		I had Dr. James R. Lewis, who has written, among other things, I understand, the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
		And I think that'll be well worth our exploration.
		It is, as you well know, one of my favorite subjects.
		Also, just to add to, and I think he'll probably have some comment on the larger picture here, a fax that just came in.
		Highard, in the last 24 hours, there have been four, count them, small earthquakes centered about a mile north of Bellevue, Washington.
		Bellevue, of course, a Seattle suburb directly across, east across Lake Washington.
		These are quakes in the 2.7 to 3.1 range.
		However, as you know, there has been some recent concern about geologic activity near Mount Rainier, so I thought I would note that for you.
		Coming up in just one moment, as I promised, Dr. James R. Lewis, and we're going to begin talking about the subject of life after death.
		We all know that information is what it's all about, and for those of you who like looking over the edge, well, I've got some really hot news for you.
		It's called UFOFAC's World Report, and it's a hot monthly newsletter packed with just the kind of information you've been looking for.
		The latest hard data on UFO sightings, encounters, abductions, and more.
		Gleaning information from around the country and around the world, UFOFAC's newsletters put together by a staff of professional journalists.
		It's sent to you every month so you get the latest developments on this timely and elusive subject.
		For an introductory price of just $19.95 a year, you'll have access to all this phenomenal information distilled into an objective and concise newsletter.
		Dr. Raymond Moody, who has been a guest several times on this program, best-selling author of Life After Death, said of Dr. Lewis's book, read the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena, because the answers you seek may be somewhere in here.
		That's Dr. Moody.
		This is Dr. Lewis.
		Let's go to Dr. Lewis now and say, Dr. Lewis, welcome to the program.
		Are you there?
unidentified		Yes, I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
		Happy to have you.
		I think you're over in the Santa Barbara area.
		That's correct.
		All right, Dr. Lewis.
		I don't have a great bio on you, so before we get started, I've got information about you, but not about how you got from there to here.
		Can you give us a thumbnail sketch?
unidentified		Okay, well, when I finished school back in the late 80s, I went to graduate school in religious studies at the University of North Carolina.
		There weren't a great number of teachings yet, regular university teaching jobs, and I just kind of found myself drifting into writing.
		And I was very fortunate.
		I got hooked up with a reference book company that allowed me to write very interesting encyclopedias.
		And I've written a series.
		I've done one on dreams.
		I've done one on astrology.
		And this one on afterlife.
		And in the fall, I have one coming out on angels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here we go again.
		Boy, we've done a lot on angels lately.
		So we'll talk about angels.
		Okay.
		But so you've done, you began with sort of hard, tough stuff, encyclopedia type work.
		And even, I noticed that even, well, it says encyclopedia of afterlife beliefs and fear.
		And it reads about like that.
		It just kind of moves through about everything.
unidentified		Right.
		Right.
		Yeah, and I took my background in religious studies, and a lot of the, what's central to a lot of religions is afterlife beliefs.
		So I brought that together with a lot of the contemporary interest in the afterlife, with the kind of near-death experiences that Raymond investigates and just tried to bring together everything.
		I think what's happened is that a lot of the population now, the baby boom generation, has reached a point in their lives where they're like over the hill, they're looking down the slope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		And as a consequence, there's a renewed interest in the afterlife.
unidentified		And if you go into any large bookstore now, you'll find quite a number of new, brand new books on the afterlife.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, we'll come back to the details, but as a man who has collated this great body of evidence and sounds very articulate and intelligent, I'm asking you honestly, are you convinced there is one?
unidentified		Well, I don't normally talk about my own beliefs, but yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's central, though.
		I mean, I understand that you compiled all this data.
		Did it add up, in your mind's eye, to evidence, sufficient evidence, that there is a life after this one?
unidentified		Yes, I'm firmly convinced that, you know, we survive the death of the body.
unidentified		Our consciousness, in some way, continues after the body dies and decomposes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, there's an interesting point.
		Our consciousness continues, is what you said.
		Now, in your studies of various religions, no doubt you've run into a lot of belief in reincarnation.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the way I'm troubled by my understanding of reincarnation, that souls are reincarnated, that people can be regressed hypnotically into past lives, or many claim even future lives.
		But the reincarnated soul is not exactly in the descriptions I've read conscious.
		In other words, that any probing for what may have gone on requires reducing the subject in question to almost an unconscious state to get to it.
		So where is the continuation of consciousness?
unidentified		Well, certainly not in memory.
		But I mean, I think that if I were to argue the reincarnation point of view, I would say...
		Well, I guess I look at the evidence From past life regression and some of the more serious stuff.
		I mean, it used to be when you looked at the old stuff, everyone seemed like that they were Cleopatra or some kind of prince or General or some kind of Patrick Henry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same problem, channeling.
unidentified		Yes.
		But I think if you look at what the Association of Past Life Therapies and Research, I think that's what they're called, the evidence they produce is that most of the people who they regress turn out to be just Joe the farmer or the barmaid or somebody.
		And their evidence is a lot more convincing to me than a lot of the flashier kinds of things.
		And I think that I guess I tend to believe in reincarnation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then my question stands, or then you agree with me.
		People say conscious, well, that we continue.
		To me, a continuation, and maybe it's just not enough depth of understanding on my part, but a continuation would entail a continuation of conscious awareness as we now understand it, and that doesn't seem to fit into the reincarnation philosophy.
unidentified		Well, just because we forget.
		I mean, if I were to ask you, you know, if I were to say, exactly one year ago, Art, what were you doing?
		Where were you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
unidentified		And you wouldn't be able to remember it, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have been there a year ago.
unidentified		You were there, and there's been a continuation of your consciousness since then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but I've been in a continuous physical life.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Well, you know, again, it's a question of...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could say a year ago, since I lead such a structured life, at this time I was doing this program.
		That's true.
		But if you were to ask me, what were you doing on your 45th birthday of your last life, there is no way I'm coming up with an answer.
		Well, I shouldn't say that.
		You might, or a hypnotist might, but I can't.
unidentified		Right, well, we have clues to what we may have done, you know, at various stages in this life.
		But again, the point is just because we don't remember it doesn't mean that we weren't there or that those memories aren't recoverable.
		I mean, they can take you into an operating room, cut off the top of your head, electrically stimulate part of your, the memory part of your brain, and you'll relive an experience that you've totally forgotten.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here's a parallel for you.
		See if this works.
		Do you have a computer?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so then there are programs that sit on your hard drive, inactive.
		And until you activate them, bring them alive, so to speak, they sit there, for all intents and purposes, dead.
		Yeah.
		Is that roughly the state?
unidentified		Yes, I would say that's a good parallel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then that's not as much as I had hoped for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, I viewed the afterlife as perhaps containing something more than dead cyberspace.
unidentified		Well, I mean, I think even people who believe in reincarnation feel that there is another realm beyond the physical where the soul remains for a greater or lesser period of time.
		That there is a heaven world beyond this one, too.
		And, you know, it's clear in a lot of the Indian traditions, I mean South Asian traditions, where we get, most of us get our reincarnation notions, the idea that you eventually reach a point where you don't reincarnate anymore.
		And then you're presumably hanging out in some heaven world or something like that.
		But not unlike Western notions of heaven world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let's talk about NDEs then, because they too seem to sort of in a way clash with all of this.
		In other words, people that have been to death's door or across it, or I don't know if you ever get across it unless you're dead, maybe you just get to the door.
		But the classic experience, the white light and the tunnel, and the other people who have died, your relatives, people you have loved.
		Now, what's happening there?
		Is that part of the road toward a reincarnated state, do you believe?
unidentified		Well, no, I mean, I think what the near-death experience is, and here again, I'm talking about my own beliefs, which I try not to talk about, but I believe that that's a foretaste of what will happen when you finally actually do die.
unidentified		And again, even a reincarnationist scheme, when you die in this lifetime, you don't immediately reincarnate into a new body, but you spend a greater or lesser time in a heaven world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, from the stories we get, there seems to be consciousness during this whole process.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		You know, and I would say that, you know, there are even memories from that time that you spend in that state.
		How you would access those memories, I'm not sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		huh um so then do you do you uh i'm It's like asking how high is the sky, but I'll probe anyway until you stop me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, our consciousness as we know it now, our reality, continues to be that reality through a near-death experience and presumably into it and or until we are reincarnated or not.
unidentified		Well, to tell you what I believe, I believe that when I die, I will go into a realm of light,
		communicate with people i knew from the past i will still be in a state of full consciousness or or even fuller consciousness there and interact and communicate with people and um in a kind of in a spiritual realm that's um
		a highly refined uh state that i i really don't i really don't know what what what my what i will see
art bell ▲ ● ▼		or anything like that well I you no doubt have interviewed people who have seen things stand by just one moment doctor we'll be right back to you we're speaking with Dr. James R. Lewis who's written along with other things the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena let's look very carefully into all of this right back here's something that kills toxins in the air helps you and your employees avoid things like headaches sinus and respiratory problems there are a zillion
		There are stories running around of people who have gone to the white light, into the tunnel and all the rest of that.
		To a lesser degree, there are stories not as well publicized, Doctor, of people who have gone to hell.
unidentified		Yes, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or maybe hell's door.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you looked into that at all?
unidentified		Well, to tell you the truth, I've never personally talked to anybody who's had that experience.
		And a couple of years ago, I asked Ray Moody about it.
		And he said, you know, I've never in all my years ever talked to anybody who's had that experience.
		And then he also said, he's a psychologist at the University of Connecticut, who's also done a lot of this kind of research.
		And he had never spoken to anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so it's difficult for me me to to comment on that all right um you wrote a chapter in this book on exorcism yeah now uh the reason I think that's important is because it's one more clue.
		I mean, obviously, if an individual is possessed, it is possessed of something that is either a soul gone or a power beyond.
		So what did you discover?
unidentified		Well, I have talked to a number of Catholic priests who have actually done exorcisms and also at least one conservative Christian minister who feels like he's done an exorcism.
unidentified		And I believe that what happens in those cases is that a disembodied spirit of some sort comes in and tries to get back into the physical by controlling another person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think this is a spirit of one who has been in the physical world, or do you believe this to be a spirit, the devil?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, so many exorcisms seem to involve the removal of a spirit that is, to our eyes, creating evil.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, I think that even if we say that in all those cases it's a case of a soul who was human trying to get back, that if that soul is willing to dominate another person, to override their will, to take over possession of their body, we're talking about a soul that's not very ethical.
		So that whether one wants to believe in a devil doing that or not, Jeff, interesting question, the ethics of possessing somebody else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One would think that everybody would strive for life and that holding, grabbing, and holding life, even if it happened to be in somebody else's body, might be argued as might be argued as ethical.
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		Well, I mean, if you were starving and there was a little child next to you and you took their food away, you know, so that you could live, you might say that there's a higher ethic that requires you to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I don't think that our ordinary people who crash in high places with lots of snow on mountains have ended up normal people with cannibalism.
unidentified		Well, cannibalism is one thing, and because you're eating the body of someone who passed on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right, of course.
unidentified		But, you know, if you are actually depriving somebody else of life so that you can have life, I mean, I think, again, one can always argue and say that that would be ethical according because we're all animals and that our primary goal is to survive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're at a break point here, but in fact, let's just break it off here.
		We'll come back, relax for about seven minutes or so, and we'll talk about exorcism some more.
		Very interesting topic, rarely touched on on this program.
		Dr. James R. Lewis is my guest.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		You're here in Dreamland with our bell.
		To participate in the program, call it 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		Which guy covers every code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1255.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what it is.
		Underway.
		I guess Dr. James has afterlife in the number that is examined evidence that would lead one to believe there is or is not average.
		He firmly believes there is.
		And we were about, you know, sort of in the middle of a bit of a discussion of exorcisms.
		And we'll get back to that in just a moment.
		The Alpine Air Purification Exorcisms.
		Did you study any particular exorcism?
		And everybody remembers the movie The Exorcist and all the things that went on, the head twisting and turning and the green pea soup and all the rest of it.
		What generally is an exorcism really like?
		And what symptoms would a typically afflicted person or possessed person demonstrate?
unidentified		Well, the interesting thing about exorcism is that you have the phenomenon of possession exorcism across the globe.
		It's not just something that's confined to the West.
		Yeah, that's very interesting, and I really hadn't had awareness of that until I really looked into it.
		And there's frequently some kind of struggle between the person doing the exorcism and the spirit who's doing the possession.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we all know what it would be like in our culture, say with the Catholic priest, and I know the church is very carefully investigates, very carefully investigates any case before they okay an extreme measure like an exorcism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do other cultures do, and is it successful?
unidentified		Well, structurally, not in terms of what's said, but in terms of structure, it's not totally dissimilar from Western exorcism.
		In China, you bring in your local Taoist priest traditionally who would address the spirit, would talk to it, and would demand that the spirit leave the person.
		Maybe at first they would try to persuade them, and then if they refuse, they would demand, and then there's like a fight between the will of the spirit and the will of the Taoist priest, and some of the familiar phenomena, even like objects around them,
		you know, falling off shelves or moving around the room, and the person will even get very, very heavy and the bed will sink down, which is recorded in Western exorcisms.
		And there's all this very dramatic kind of phenomena that are associated with these battle wills.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, how do we even get evidence of what goes on in an exorcism?
		For example, does the church not hold these records very carefully and closely?
		How do we ever get insight?
unidentified		Oh, I mean, there are plenty of exorcisms that are recorded.
		I mean, you can, there's a literature, there's an exorcism literature that you can go to a good library or a good university library and look up.
		And it's not just confined to the Catholic Church.
		I mean, there are even Protestant exorcism manuals.
		Now, most mainstream denominations look at that as superstition now and don't like to talk about that.
		But I have a good friend who's a Methodist minister, and he showed me a Methodist exorcism manual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		And, but, you know, the modern Methodist church has been so influenced by secularism that it kind of looks at that as antiquated superstition, and so it doesn't like to admit, well, I mean, of course they'll admit it, but they don't practice exorcism.
unidentified		I mean, I can't imagine a Methodist minister, contemporary Methodist minister, performing an exorcism, but apparently at one time, that was done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		My mother's husband, my stepdad, married for 30 years, died within the week.
		Within this week.
		In fact, she's listening right now.
		And I'm going to fold this into a question about communicating.
		Is it possible, Doctor, to communicate with those who have passed on?
unidentified		Well, again, certainly worldwide, that has been a belief that has crossed all cultural boundaries, all boundaries of area, all boundaries of religion.
unidentified		And very frequently people report talking to the deceased immediately after they're dead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or shortly thereafter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
unidentified		And that's some huge percentage of adult Americans, better than 50%, I knew this exact statistic at one time, reported that having an experience of someone who just after they died had come to them to communicate to them that I'm all right, don't worry.
		And then people many times report dream states in which it seems like someone that they knew who had passed on was communicating with them.
		And of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when we're asleep and we're dreaming, we're in an altered state.
unidentified		Yeah, correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I would assume that communication at that moment, if it is possible, would be ever so more possible.
unidentified		Yeah, yes.
		I think so.
		We're not as preoccupied with what we're doing in the outer world.
		We're in an inner world.
		So that if someone on the other side of life were wanting to approach us, it would seem like the dream state would be an ideal one to try to reach us in.
		And of course, there's the phenomenon of spiritualism, which began as A movement in middle of the 19th century in this country that was built around communication with the so-called dead.
		And the spiritualist services that I have seen, you know, we can always be skeptics, but they're very convincing to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am skeptical.
		But there was Houdini.
		Houdini was a great mystic.
		Houdini promised, said if there was any way it could be done, he'd do it.
		Yeah.
		There are those who claimed, have claimed recently, I'm in communication with one of them, that he communicated with Houdini.
		The best evidence so far has Houdini, in fact, made it back with word.
unidentified		This person that you were talking with?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I say I've got somebody who claims that he's communicated with Houdini.
		That little story aside, what's the best evidence?
		Has Houdini managed to get any message through, in your opinion, yet?
unidentified		Yes, I'm trying.
		I don't believe And there was some kind of agreed-upon, kind of coded message that he was to send to her.
		And so after he passed on, his wife went to all these various mediums and psychics.
		And again, if I remember correctly, none of them were able to satisfy her that they were in communication with her husband.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As of yet.
unidentified		Right.
		So that was the kind of experiment that a lot of spiritualists were interested in.
		There was, particularly the British, were very interested in trying to prove existence of life after death.
		And they made all kinds of agreements, like after I die, whoever dies first, the other will try to do it.
		Then we'll convince them by saying such, this, that, and the other.
		And I don't know.
		I mean, they went on and did all kinds of experiments.
		And it seems like that movement just kind of faded out.
		There were so many hoaxes involving mediums that it kind of clouded it all up.
		Yes, that it made the general public look skeptically on all mediums, even the ones who were at least attempting to be serious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I look very skeptically at the channeling business.
		My very own sister, Doctor, has been a channel.
		And I've told her, just as I'm going to tell you right now, I'm sorry, but I think it's a bunch of baloney.
		Now, maybe not, and maybe there's some seed of reality behind the whole concept of channeling.
		But in your studies, what do you conclude?
unidentified		Well, I've gone and listened to quite a few New Age channels, and whenever I do, I think of this very amusing thing that I heard this Swami say.
		The Swami said, if all of these channel entities are so such highly evolved beings, how come they never seem to be able to speak English right?
		Which is not to ridicule the whole phenomenon, but a lot of it strikes me as very carnival-like.
		And that's not to say that people can't be mediums or can't be channels for people on the other side because a part of me is inclined to think that they can.
		But when I look at the new age channeling business, I'm just...
		I mean, I went and saw this gentleman who claimed to channel, no kidding, dolphins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Channeled dolphins.
unidentified		Yes, and I mean, I'm sorry.
unidentified		Gee, Liz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, that's on the one side.
		But on the other side, Doctor, I have talked with so many real people.
		And you'll hear them this morning, this evening, I'm sure.
		I mean substantial people who have talked to people who have passed on.
		There was no doubt about it.
		You know, they can't perhaps convince us.
		They can tell us the story, but the stories are credible, and the people are credible.
		So something's going on.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I mean, I do think that there can be communication from the other side.
		I think that in many cases there's a lot of wishful thinking involved, and sometimes that's all that there is.
		But other times, I think too many people report it for it to be complete, to completely dismiss it.
		I do think that there are authentic examples of communications from the other side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I. Let's discuss for a second the other side.
		What is your best guess, the other side?
		In other words, is the other side another dimension?
		Is the other side a higher astral or a spiritual plane?
		Or what is it?
unidentified		Well, gosh, again, I don't normally talk about my own beliefs, but I guess I think personally, I think in terms of different planes or levels or dimensions of reality that are separated from each other by what we might call a different vibratory rate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this comes very close to, are you familiar with Dr. Monroe and the Monroe Institute?
		I've interviewed Dr. Monroe, and that is more or less what he believes.
		There are levels.
		Yeah, many levels.
		And you concur with that.
unidentified		That's the way I tend to view things in terms of a spectrum, if you will, of level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		Doctor, hold on just one moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is Dr. James R. Lewis, who has written, after all, the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomenon.
		We'll be right back.
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		Back briefly to the subject of UFOs.
		Don't forget, we have the five most incredible still photographs of the alleged Roswell autopsy that you've ever seen.
		They're on our bulletin board.
		It's open 24 hours a day, up to 28 baud rate at the telephone numbers, area code 702-727-1709.
		It is not the only source of information, though.
		UFO Facts is another.
		It is a newsletter which is just absolutely packed with the kind of info all of you I know are looking for.
		Hard data on UFO sightings, encounters, abductions, everything that's going on as it goes on.
		Gleaning information from all around the country and the world.
		UFO Facts newsletter is put together by a staff of very professional journalists.
		and sent to you every month so you know what's going on the phone number free to call a free phone number anyway 1-800-830-9830 back now to Dr. Lewis Dr. Lewis let me ask you we're moving through a lot of territory here before we get phone lines open is there magic is there magic as in o
		old voodoo as in certain practices by certain people and cultures around the world that claim to what to me anyway would be the ability to do magic it's a good word for it because it's way beyond my understanding well to sound like a broken record again the idea of basic idea of magic and a belief in magic is something
unidentified		that one finds across the globe in every culture and in every major religious tradition in the world and well look together your comments are very important you're saying of all these things that they are a commonality yes yes this is a universal human belief and it's only been since the the rise of a kind of a secular worldview in very
unidentified		recent centuries in the West that there's even a real serious possibility of doubting a lot of these traditional kinds of beliefs because traditionally people people believed in them and you know it was just natural to to believe that one's consciousness would continue after death for example do you believe it is possible for one person to put a curse on another in effect and
art bell ▲ ● ▼		uh even more important question i guess people can put curses on voodoo and so forth but uh in your opinion does it require the belief of the victim uh for that curse to be effective well you thought this was going to be an easy night yes yes yes well well again uh again i i rarely talk the personal of you although i i don't mind talking about this i just i just thought more i'd be talking more about beliefs and promoting the book but uh i'm happy to Well
unidentified		again, I rarely talk for personal over you, although I don't mind talking about this, I just thought I'd be talking more about beliefs and promoting the book, but I'm happy to...
unidentified		Look, we didn't promote the heck out of your book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because your book really does, after all I'm picking a lot of these subjects straight from your book.
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, I don't...
		A lot of the little accoutrements of magic that vary across from one culture to another, I mean, I don't think that those things are what's effective.
		Like some people believe that if you take a certain kind of a substance from the earth and say a certain verbal formula that that's effective.
		I think that to the extent that there is magic, I think it's in terms of the will of the individual magician...
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're at a break point.
		We've got a break here.
		And that's where we'll pick up because that provokes a wonderful question.
unidentified		We'll be back.
		This is Dreamland.
		Talk 102.
		The computer has spawned a new medium that blends text, sound, pictures, and video.
		I'm gym you're right you're right right and so that would make you much more uh careful much more fearful much more anxious yes and so uh uh certainly that is that is a that is a major factor in in traditional societies um I don't know,
		I mean, I guess where I tend to believe in magic is not in what we normally think of as magic, but more in terms of creative visualization.
		I mean, I think that the studies I've seen of people who are sick, for example, have something wrong with their foot, and if they visualize their foot being well, it gets better.
		Or if they, you know, are sending healing thoughts to somebody, that's much more difficult to measure.
		I think that somehow those thoughts have an impact.
		It's as if thoughts or ideations, it's almost like you send out an energy.
		It's hard for me to...
		I am saying that I believe, yes, that it's real.
		I don't think that you're going to have a magician whose will is powerful enough to imagine a train going off track and be able to affect a train.
		Maybe I'm wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let us, you'll like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let us imagine for a moment a future in which much of what you write about has been in effect proven.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
		Now comes a fact from Aaron and Carson C. Speaking of ethics, he says, as our technology advances to the point where mind, spirit, intellect, time, and space are more understood, may we face some real dilemmas?
		In other words, what happens when we discover the point in time when a human has an actual spirit, beginning intellect?
		What if possessions are aborted spirits trying with anger or confusion to get back to the corporeal world?
		Will there be class action suits on behalf of spirits that a new technology might allow us to communicate with that were deprived of a chance of life by an uncaring mother, doctor, and or society?
		There may be cosmic rules and regulations that we have violated.
		We may have to send all lawyers to the other side, beyond, etc., before we go much farther.
		That's Ramarin.
unidentified		Well, it reminds me of a joke.
unidentified		What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good stuff.
unidentified		Very good stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, it does imagine a future in which many things that are not now recognized are.
unidentified		Yes, well, it's funny you mentioned that right before you called, I was watching, my wife had the television on, I was watching sightings, and there was a law case in which a medium's testimony in a trial helped to convict somebody of murder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		And that raises all kinds of very strange questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you may recall in the O.J. Simpson trial, there was testimony about a dream that O.J. supposedly described to somebody that was supposed to be evidence in helping to convict him of those murders.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yes.
		I mean, when we start blurring these boundaries, it does raise all kinds.
		It makes the whole system much more complicated when we start admitting these kinds of realities.
		And as you say, maybe this is a new pioneer era for lawyers.
		Maybe we should.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Love.
		I do want you to promote your books.
		Now, you have just written a book on angels, and I...
		A lot of people that have been researching UFOs, researching the spirit world, suddenly, for some reason, have turned angels.
		And angels are suddenly all the rage.
		Yeah, all the rage.
		What's going on with angels?
unidentified		Well, it depends on the perspective you want to take on that.
		I mean, I think that most religious people have always believed that they were angels, but they hadn't really stressed them.
		I mean, if you look through the Bible, there are constant references to angels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		But when an angel does something, the people in the book say God did such and such and so-and-so.
		Even though they describe the angel as doing it, they always describe what the angel accomplishes to the Almighty.
		And the focus is never on the angel per se.
		And the focus on angels is, I think, from a traditional religious point of view, kind of problematic because you're taking the attention away from God and you're focusing it on God's agents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is indeed what you believe angels are, God's agents, not spirits that have once been earth-bound?
unidentified		Well, I think that there's a lot of confusion in contemporary angel literature.
unidentified		In tradition, angels were a separate order of creation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And that's very clear in the Western religious tradition.
		In the contemporary angel literature, that boundary gets not just confused, but it seems like it drops.
		So that my dead uncle George, who comes and helps me, I start describing him as an angel.
		And then even in some of the popular movies, we see people dying, and we see them portrayed in heaven as having wings, Which was traditionally just described to angels and not departed human beings.
		But I think that the contemporary angel literature really collapses those boundaries.
		And so that any kind of visitation from the other side is thought of as being angelic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does this mean I might get wings?
		I mean, I've always said, I kind of always envisioned that.
		I like the wing part of it.
unidentified		Well, I don't know.
		I mean, I think the wings are symbolic.
		Symbolic of power and spiritual flight and all of that.
		I don't think that that's meant to be taking place literally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		Let's take a couple of calls for the fun of it.
		See what's going on here.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Is this up there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Santa Clara.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santa Cruz?
unidentified		Santa Clara.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santa Clara.
		Okay.
		Welcome to the show.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		You mean I'm talking to him now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on here.
unidentified		Oh, I've got a question.
		I want to know something about apparitions.
		This was about almost five, six months ago now.
		I was sitting up in bed watching TV and I fell asleep.
		And all of a sudden, I woke up, and along the edge of my bed was a little man about four feet long, and he had on brilliant colored red, green clothes.
		And I mean, I screamed.
		And I turned to pick up my phone.
		I was going to call 911.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		911, yeah.
unidentified		And when I looked back, he was gone.
unidentified		But I saw him plain as day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		How is that possible?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		It is.
		Actually, it leads us into an interesting area.
		Apparitions, generally.
		Doctor, I have several photographs that I believe to be photographs of real ghosts.
		And I solicit and I want those photographs, and anybody who'll send them to me is rewarded somehow or another.
		They'll get it in my book or whatever.
		But are there apparitions?
		Are there ghosts?
		And can they be indeed photographed?
		And what do you think that lady saw?
unidentified		Well, it's hard to tell what she saw because she was coming directly out of a dream state.
		And when you're in a dream state, you're already in an altered state of consciousness.
		And as you know, when you first wake up, you're still sort of back in a dream.
		And so I think that her consciousness was much more open when she woke up so that perhaps she could see something on the other side.
		Perhaps she saw something that was more mentally produced, like a dream image.
		As far as apparitions go, what, again, the kind of traditional spiritualist literature says is that by have you heard of ectoplasm?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh yes.
unidentified		That supposedly our bodies exude this certain energy and that people or entities on the other side, by lowering their vibration and by kind of taking building blocks of energy from the people in a room, that they can actually construct something that's visible to the naked eye, in just ordinary consciousness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe you have documented evidence of that?
unidentified		Well, I think that enough people have seen apparitions and enough credible people have seen apparitions that I tend to give it credence.
		I mean, what can I say?
		I have all this background in academia, but basically I'm a believer.
		I mean, I have a skeptical training as a skeptical scholar, but...
		Yes.
		But, you know, enough people have reported seeing things like that that I give it credibility.
		I haven't myself seen what I would call an apparition, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's try one more quick one.
		Easter the Rockies are on the air with Dr. Lewis.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		My name's Ren.
		I'm calling from Minneapolis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Minneapolis.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah, hi.
		You and Dr. Lewis are on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		I have a question.
		How do people get possessed?
		I mean, are they open to it in some way?
		Basically, I have this really irrational fear that that's going to happen to me.
		And I just, you know, how does it happen?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can you avoid it?
		It's a good question.
		I mean, can she put on some metal helmet or something and not be possessed?
		Or even more to the point, would an irrational fear of being possessed possibly be more likely to lead to it?
unidentified		I think what I have seen among contemporary psychologists who give possession some degree of serious attention, what they say is that the people who are most likely to be possessed are people who are very negative, who, you know, right off from the get-go don't feel very positive about this life, or people who are involved in some other kind of escapism like drugs.
unidentified		So that in some ways they have already taken a step back from this life, and that that allows a space, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A vacuum.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Asking for another spirit, entity, soul, whatever, to step into that vacuum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
		That might sell better than just say no.
		Doctor, stay right there.
		We'll be right back to you.
		You're listening to Dreamland.
		I'm Art Bell.
		North American Training.
unidentified		727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 area code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here I am, and my guest is Dr. James R. Lewis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of you, I bet, didn't know I was involved in Buddhism, but I was, and you're about to find out about it.
unidentified		Stay tuned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You also don't know that a bill has been introduced into the Senate, an actual Senate bill requiring the Treasury Department to replace our existing greenback with a new funding money, kind of colored money.
		I'm not looking forward to it.
		But there's more to the bill than just that.
		It will create a money used inside the country and another money that you use outside the country.
		Now, traditionally, two-tiered money systems have been created so that you might devalue the domestic currency while holding the value of the international currency up.
		So, here is the deal, simple deal, too.
		North American Trading will send you a free copy of this bill, no strings attached, because they're smart.
		They sell gold, see?
		And you see.
		And once you've read this bill and you realize what's going on, the moved gold will be natural.
		But for right now.
		Well, it's on the subject.
		Find out what's happening.
		From government cover-ups to the nuts and health conscious folks.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		If you could tell me the basis of the movie, I heard it was from the hospital in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Poldergeist or the Exorcist?
unidentified		Well, the Exorcist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Exorcist.
unidentified		What exactly?
unidentified		Now the question was garbled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you wanted to know the origin of the story, was that correct?
unidentified		Yes, I heard it was from the hospital in St. Louis.
		I honestly don't know.
		The information I looked at, nobody talked about where the story came from.
		I did come across the very interesting information that while they were making the movie The Exorcist, they had all kinds of very strange, bizarre phenomena occur on the set.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yeah, with like, you know, poltergeist type phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I'd never heard that.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, and the people who were making the movie actually got kind of spooked while they were doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've seen a lot of scary movies in my time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And maybe it was because it was the first of the genre.
unidentified		Maybe it was because the church was involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what it was, but I'll tell you this.
		It scared the hell out of me.
		The Exorcist really scared me deeply.
unidentified		Well, do you know, now this is something that's very interesting.
unidentified		Well, then every 20th frame had some kind of, like, a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a great hook.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Stay right there.
		Dr. Lewis is my guest.
		And every 20th frame had what?
		We'll find out in a moment.
unidentified		We'll find out in a moment.
		Talk 102.
		Everyone likes the summer, especially burglars.
		According to FBI statistics, over 26% of all home break-ins occur between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
		So when you go away, burglars go to work.
		That means you need more protection, the kind you can get with electronic monitoring.
		That's why you should call the world's number one security company, ADT Security Systems.
		Call ADT Now at 1-800-209-2443.
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		So don't let a burglar's work ruin your summer.
		Take advantage of ADT SummerSale and get two months of free monitoring.
		Call 1-800-209-2443.
		This money to time off runs soon.
		36-month monitoring a year and a telephone connection be required.
		Certain restrictions apply.
		Call ADT Now 1-800-209-2443.
		Cigarettes are the most heavily marketed consumer product in America.
		Tobacco companies spend more than $4.5 billion a year or $11 million a day to advertise their product.
		Advertising for tobacco products often is misleading and deceptive, especially for children.
		Tobacco advertising projects images of smoking as fun, sexy, glamorous, and macho, and most insidiously, helpful.
		Too bad they're not telling the truth.
		Smoking at Equal Opportunity Killer.
		Sponsored by the Illinois Coalition Against Tobacco.
		When you think about it, it's amazing how many numbers we know by heart.
		Like 911 or 98.6.
		Then there's 1492, 1776, and of course, 1995.
		But of all the numbers you know by heart, do you know the numbers important to your heart?
		Do you know your cholesterol numbers?
		There are different levels of good and bad cholesterol in all of us.
		To help reduce your risk of heart disease, it's important to know what your levels are.
		If it starts by finding out your total cholesterol number, add your HDL or good folks file number.
		So do you know what folks call it?
		If not, go to doctor.
		Turn our information called that stop.
		1-800-575-1.
		Your heart will thank you for it.
		And my husband.
		All Education Program.
		Nothing beats a night out at the ballpark, especially when it means so much to the children of Central Illinois.
		Hi, this is Talk 102's Rich Stranger.
		And I'm Jack Crabtree.
		Join us this Monday evening at Pete Vanakin Stadium as the Pure A2s take on the Blue Links and Bees.
		That should be a heck of a game, Rich.
		And an equally good opportunity, Jack, to support the Coastal Kids campaign.
		Yep, just bring in a newer used children's scope with you to drop off at the point gate, and your donation will get you into the game for just a dollar.
		And it'll help the Salvation Army keep preserving area children nice and warm for the winner ahead.
		So join us, won't you?
		Hey, good job, Jack.
		Yeah, thanks, Rich.
		You know, one thing's still bugging me.
		What's that?
		It's kind of warm for coach, isn't it?
		No, it's for the winner.
		Didn't you pay attention to what I just said?
		Huh?
		What, you talking to me?
		This Monday is Coach for Kids Night, as the Chiefs host Burlington.
		Join Talk 102, the Salvation Army Children's Hospital of Illinois, and the Teoria Chiefs in supporting this outstanding program.
		Remember, bring a child's coat when you are used to the game.
		Coach for Kids, proudly supported by Talk 102.
		Good evening, and here's the Talk 102 forecast for central Illinois.
		Tonight, a 30% chance of showers and thunderstorms.
		We'll have an overnight low of 72 degrees.
	Tomorrow, a 40% chance of storms.
	A high on Monday is expected to be around 90.
	And on Tuesday, partly sunny, hot, and humid with a high near 95 degrees.
	At 8:33, it is 80 degrees.
	Keep listening.
	More Dreamland is coming up here on Talk 102.
	This is Talk 102.
	Think of us as food for the mind.
	Think of us as food for the mind.
	Nick Hour of Monte Bell is recording and rebroadcast at this time.
	you can look at From the Kingdom of Nine, you're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
	To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	First-time crawlers, area code 702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dreamland in the nighttime from the high desert.
		Dr. James R. Lewis is my guest, author of the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
		We'll get back to him in just a moment.
unidentified		Absolutely fresh flowers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I guess you got to, you know, there are stories that you have to retell because it's the only way to properly impart the information.
		And several years ago, Dexter Yard, a flower farmer, came to me.
		I was doing a radio show and said, look, I'm a flower farmer.
		I don't, you know, I don't sell to people.
		I sell to wholesalers.
		What would you think of the idea of advertising and seeing if we could sell directly from my farm to the people?
		I said, yeah, sure.
		You know, sounds pretty interesting.
		Send me a typical shipment, would you?
		And he did.
		And here came this gigantic shipment of flowers in a big triangular box.
		Man, I was pulling flowers out of there and pulling them out.
		And I thought, yeah, right.
		I mean, this is really typical shipment.
		So I ordered one under an assumed name to a different address.
		Lo and behold, here comes the same size shipment.
		And boy, I said, you're going to make a lot of money.
		And he has.
		They're miniature carnations.
		That's the history of how it began.
		And what he'll do is you call, you're calling directly to the flower farm.
		He'll go out and cut flowers, put them together, and ship them out anywhere in the U.S. of A by FedEx.
		Means you call today and they deliver tomorrow, just like that.
		And you'll knock somebody's socks right off.
		Comes with a little personalized written handwritten card from you and flower preservative.
		Total price, $39.95, including delivery.
		$39.95.
		Birthdays, anniversaries.
		Can't go wrong.
		The number is 1-800-562-6438.
		1-800-562-6438.
		Now, every 20th frame, Dr. Lewis, of the Exorcist, what about that?
unidentified		Well, remember when they used to, in movies, they would flash up like popcorn or Coke or something for just a fraction of a second that you couldn't see or you couldn't see consciously?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Subliminal advertising.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They passed laws against that.
unidentified		Yeah, they passed laws against that.
		But before those laws were passed, they made The Exorcist.
		And so The Exorcist is one of the few movies in which you find that.
		But every, from what I heard, every 20th frame had some horrible picture, like a skull or something.
		And that's one of the reasons why that movie is so eerie.
		If you compare it with later kind of Exorcist movies, the later ones, even though they're maybe heavier in certain ways, they just don't scare the socks off you like the original.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my God, that's a really fascinating story.
		I had no idea, and I did.
		I sat in mortal fear watching that.
unidentified		A lot of people have nightmares after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll bet they did.
		Oh, that's really interesting.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. James R. Lewis.
		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hi.
		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm calling from St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		St. Louis, yes, sir.
unidentified		Great show, Art, Mr. Lewis, as usual.
		For what it's worth, the events in the Exorcist were based on events that happened at St. Louis University Hospital.
		Oh, it was a teenage boy instead of a teenage girl.
		Uh-huh.
		We'll throw that out just for information.
		Where would one look up the particulars on those?
		I thought on one of the afternoon tabloid shows.
		Oh, copy or one of those deals.
		But St. Louis University has a well-respected Catholic theology seminary there.
		So I just go to the theology department and ask around about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a good start.
		That's had something.
		Thank you very much.
		St. Louis, Missouri.
		Art Bell and guest.
		This is a facts.
		Dave from Redwood City says, Robert Monroe was definitely on the right track.
		I've had some of the same experiences.
		The power of will is awesome, but only if your will is allowed.
		Rudolph Steiner best explains it.
		The theory of dimensions, belief systems, and vibrational frequencies is the key to the whole process.
		And Doctor, it sounds to me like that's about the same place or belief system you've developed as a result of all of this.
		Is that correct?
unidentified		Well, it depends on what you...
unidentified		And I think that that's what the out-of-body experience people have found, that that's the power that drives, that allows you to have access to other realms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, pretty close to the Monroe doctrine, we'll say.
		All right, west of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		well, I probably got the wrong line name because I'm in Wichita, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right.
		You're west of the Rock.
		You're east of the Rockies, and you're on the west of the Rockies line, so I've got to move on here.
		I'll go to the real east of the Rockies line.
		You're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, is this Dr. Lewis?
		Yes.
		Hi, is this Outlook?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And I was just wondering, the, I don't know how much information you have about satellites, but when we look up in the sky, we see they almost look like planets when they move different directions throughout the sky.
		Sure.
		And I was just wondering if satellites can go in different directions or...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not related to what my guest is talking about, but what we call polar orbiters are constantly on different tracks as they crisscross the Earth.
		So the answer to that is yes, and you will see them going in different directions.
		When they make right-hand turns, get concerned.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I think they gave up just as we came to them.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, hello.
unidentified		How are you doing today, Ark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, sir.
unidentified		Great.
		I wanted to ask the doctor.
		Well, actually, I want to give a story to Netflix.
		One night I'm sitting there watching TV, and it's about 3 o'clock in the morning, and a commercial comes on, and so I turn my head to ignore the commercial, you know.
		And I look out into the other room, and it was dark in the other room, and then coming past my door was a spirit, you know.
		And it was darker than the room was, so it had a complete outline.
		And it had like a Holocaust robe on, where it completely covered the head up.
		And you could see the face, the facial features on it, and you could see the robe.
		And it was floating a couple, you know, say four or five inches off the ground.
		It was floating, just going in a straight line past the door.
		And then the very next day, I went over with this friend of mine, over to this other guy's house, who he introduced me to.
		And this guy starts telling me about this book called Durantha.
		And I want to ask the doctor, first of all, he's familiar with people seeing this type of ghost.
		I mean, the Holocaust robe is kind of strange because I always picture the ghost as being a white figure floating up by the ceiling, not something, you know, floating on the floor, you know, darker than the room was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is an interesting line.
		Doctor, people who see entities or ghosts or spirits, do you find that as you study cases like that, that they say their expectations are met of what that entity ought to look like, or that it was completely outside what they could have even imagined?
		It's an important question.
unidentified		Well, I think the answer to that is mixed, because I think that the experience of seeing so-called ghosts ranges is not a simple phenomenon because sometimes I think people do simply project and see something that's not there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You understand the implication of the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if they see what they expect to see, then obviously the chances they made it up in their own mind are great.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And, you know, and then in other cases, you know, I think that the person is actually seeing something of a spiritual or quasi-spiritual nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something real.
unidentified		Something real.
unidentified		I mean, that's, again, talking about my personal belief system tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's fine because your guy has studied all of this more than we have.
unidentified		And I think that, you know, what you were saying is that when you see something that doesn't meet your expectations, it reinforces the sense that it may actually be a real experience.
		john right if you don't if you don't see casper the friendly ghost instead see someone in a black robe it's like Right.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Well, that's kind of what I concluded from the question.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		I am calling from Liberal, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Liberal, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		This is Dorothy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course it is.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
		Doctor.
		I'm certainly calling her Taylor Cornerwell, the man.
		Yes.
		There was a book written about her called In Search of the Soul.
		I cannot for the life of me remember who wrote it, but she had agreed to be hypnotized by a hypnotist in California somewhere.
		And the book is utterly fascinating where they wanted to know how she wrote these books that she wrote that were so, we were right there with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, ma'am, as we get the answer to your question, I'm friends with and know personally Taylor Caldwell's husband, who survives, of course, and is in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, would you like to comment?
unidentified		Well, what I was going to say is back on her regression, where they recorded everything, that she actually dwelled in another solar system besides having other earthly lives.
unidentified		And many of the books that she wrote were with regards to her own life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And, Doctor, there are a lot of people who claim in regressions that, in fact, they regress to a place or to a life that was not on this earth.
		Have you run into that?
unidentified		That's not what I would call universal, but it's something that you find reasonably regularly.
unidentified		And, you know, the people say that they had an incarnation on another world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That seems to be so outside What somebody would normally imagine, that it's a good example, I think, of adding to the credibility of this whole field of study.
		It just is not something you would expect to emanate from somebody's imagination.
		They would relate to things of this world, not of another.
unidentified		And it's interesting that you find even a few cases of that back in the 19th century, where they, you know, people will start talking about a lifetime they had on a different planet.
		There's even a few recorded 19th century cases of that in the Spiritism, which is a French variant on spiritualism.
		And unlike American spiritualists who denied reincarnation, the Spiritists believed in reincarnation.
		And some of the Spiritists claimed that they could remember lives on other planets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that something embraced by the Native American belief system?
unidentified		Well, I don't think that Native Americans would talk in terms of other planets.
unidentified		I think that they would conceptualize it differently in terms of other realms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Their association would be more closer to the Earth.
		Stand by, Doctor.
		I'll be right back to you.
		If you have scaling in your pipes, you've got problems.
		If you've got scaling, you've got a mineral deposit, it's not good for anything.
		But you know that.
		I mean, your car, when you wash it, you get the white spots.
		Your pipes are caking up.
		Your water heater is costing you more money.
		All around, it's a bad, bad situation, and I know that you know that.
		And a lot of people have been down the road of trying to do something with, you know, hauling chemicals to treat the water somehow or another.
		It's enough to drive you crazy.
		There is a way to handle it.
		It's magnetics, and it really does work.
		I have it here in the house, or I wouldn't advertise it.
		I know it works.
		Magnetics does condition water.
		I know it seems impossible, but believe me, it does.
		And when it's done, and it takes a few days to take hold of running your water, your water's great.
		It's better for everything.
		Your skin doesn't itch, hair, food, clothes, appliances, you know, you name it.
		Even your pool.
		The cost is $400 to $600, depending now on the size of your home.
		Best of all, it comes with a 90-day money-back guarantee.
		Check it out.
		If it is not what I say, you get your money back.
		Call them toll-free.
		GMX.
		It's 1-800-4060GMX.
		That's 1-800-4060GMX.
		And now briefly, pycnoginals.
		These are antioxidants.
		Vitamin C is an antioxidant, and the scientists at UCLA have determined that the antioxidant value of vitamin C will help avoid cancer, strokes, heart attacks, may increase life expectancy, an average of five years.
		That's a lot of time.
		Well, there are new, more powerful antioxidants now on the market than vitamin C. Pycnoginols are about 20 times the antioxidant value of vitamin C. Well, so what?
		Don't say that, because antioxidants battle inside your body something called free radicals that destroy cells, damage tissue, cause you to age faster, give you stiff joints, all kinds of things.
		So, if you would like pycnogenals and you want a big battle to go on, and believe me, you do, and destroy these free radicals inside your own body, well, go research it at your library, but when you want pycnoginals, which you will when you know, call 1-800-856-1119.
		Now, these particular pycnoginals, the ones advertised here, are pharmaceutical grade.
		They're made from 95% pure grapeseed extract.
		The number is 1-800-856-1119.
		Back now to Dr. Lewis.
		How are you holding up, Doctor?
unidentified		Well, I'm still here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably not the easiest two and a half hours you've ever done.
unidentified		Oh, no, you're a very good interviewer.
		I've been on radio programs where I'm discussing the cult issue because I don't believe that cults brainwash people, and I get in arguments, and those kind of shows are much more draining.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Joanne the Witch from San Aga.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're a witch?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
unidentified		I'm a practicing Wiccan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're a good witch, right?
unidentified		Well, that's what they say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, now, let's.
		What does that mean?
		Well, I don't care.
		First of all, I don't care what they say.
		What do you say?
unidentified		Oh, well, I don't put it in terms of good and bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
unidentified		No.
		Well, I'd say it's good.
		I don't think in terms of white or black.
		But it's a nature-worshiping religion, and that's pretty much the basis of it.
		And I'd like to thank Dr. Lewis for his very positive comments about Wicca itself.
		You're quite welcome.
		And I've heard about the reincarnation, and that's a big part of Wicca also.
		And how much background do you have as far as the study of witchcraft in general?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question, Denny.
unidentified		Have you ever heard of a fellow by the name of Aiden Kelly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, she's gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		I used to work with one of the people who founded one of the witchcraft traditions, and that's kind of complex to explain traditions.
		But I used to attend his circle on a regular basis, and I'd also go with him to larger neo-pagan festivals.
		and so I would say my direct contact with the movement has been, at one time in my life, was very extensive.
		I haven't really done much in that area for quite a few years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was the nature of your study academic, or did it become for you personal?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, did you begin to enter the realm?
unidentified		Well, I mean, I practiced it as, when I would attend the gatherings, I would participate in it in the same way one would participate in a church service, although Wiccans may or may not like that comparison.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I may be dealing with a warlock here.
unidentified		Well, I'm not.
unidentified		It originally meant someone who squealed on other people, so contemporary witches, male witches, would not...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		would not claim the title warlock no what would they claim they would say they're a witch and you know it's within the neo-pagan movement witch is used for both male and female wow fascinating all right first time caller line you're on the air with dr. Lewis hello yes uh turn your radio off that's first going the other room yeah all right I wanted to ask have you ever included three
		different types of spirits all right I'll I'll leave it at that I don't I don't deal with people leave their radios on East of the Rockies you're on the air with Dr. Lewis hello this is Bob from Wheeling West Virginia hi Bob okay and I think you need to be a little bit kinder to the people calling into your show well you think I'm mean well a little bit I mean I've heard you hang up once and people you should at least you know like yeah there are certain rules Bob
		to the show no no radios on in the background that sort of thing and I do adhere strictly to those rules do you have a question I just wanted to tell you now be a little bit nicer okay well I guess I'm a mean mean guy but to effectively run a show there are certain rules I lay them down if people don't adhere to them then I guess I'll just have to be viewed as mean and live with that west of the Rockies you're on the air with Dr. Lewis hi hi is this the dreamscape

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