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July 16, 1995 - Art Bell

01:40:54

Dreamland with Art Bell - Kevin Randle - Alien Abduction- The Afterlife - James R. Lewis

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	...expert on crop circle and animal mutilation phenomenon.
	And her studies extend in many directions.
	Item number two is... Item number two. I talk about people as though they're items.
	They are not.
	Kevin Randall will give us a short little report.
	He too has seen some of the Roswell footage that we talk so much about and so look forward to that.
	Then our main guest will be James R. Lewis, who wrote the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
	That should be interesting indeed.
	Forward by Raymond Moody, Dr. Moody, who has also been on the program, and as you well know, one of my favorite subjects.
	Right now, to Philadelphia, and as usual, here she is, Linda Howe.
	All right, hi!
	Hi, Linda.
	Boy, you really do have a lineup, don't you?
	Oh, I do, yes.
	A month ago, if you remember, I played on Dreamland the sounds of the alleged Bigfoot in the Snohomish, Washington area.
	I will never, never forget it, Linda.
	Well, stand by because I'm going to let our listeners hear a little bit to it again because I've had a very interesting response from a woman up in Washington who, upon hearing what I'm just going to play here in a moment, contacted you and you forwarded the letter to me and I have talked with her and it's a very interesting interview.
	And it's current.
	Now what I'm going to play now is from the 70s after two people there saw long-haired primate-looking creatures over 8 feet tall associated with these sounds.
	Here they come.
	There they are.
	Oh my God.
	Oh my god.
	Linda.
	Linda, I was grabbing for a tape as you were about to do that, and I didn't make it in time.
	I tell you, that sound stands the hair on the back of my neck straight up.
	Todd, that's awful.
	I'll make you a dub, I promise.
	Oh, please.
	By all means, I want that sound.
	I mean, that's just... I'll use that on my Halloween show.
	My God, that's awful.
	Well, after that broadcast, I received a letter that you faxed from a 29-year-old woman in Forks, Washington, who wrote, and this is a quote, I live in an apparently remote area of the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State, near Forks, Washington, and about four miles inland from the coast.
	Shortly after moving here in the summer of 1993, I heard the same wail that you played on Dreamland.
	And several times since then, I have heard that same sound as well, meaning up to the current year.
	I have also seen numerous strange nocturnal moving lights since moving here to the Olympic Peninsula.
	Well, I called to talk to her about the Bigfoot sounds, and I also learned that she encountered in full consciousness,
	completely wide awake in her father's home in Fort Washington, what was described from her point of
	view as a non-human looking gray colored being or beings.
	And I want you now to hear her story in an area where she has also heard these strange
	sounds.
	So here is our writer.
	All right.
	Very good.
	For a while I lived actually in the city of Fork before I moved out here.
	And there were some unusual happenings and I became frightened and I went to stay with
	my father for a while.
	And while I was staying with my father I had an abduction experience and I quite clearly
	remember what is typically described as gray coming into my father's home.
	I was sitting on a chair and I was dozing and I suddenly, I felt a presence or I heard something behind me.
	I don't know quite what alerted me and I turned and there was someone standing behind me.
	And at the moment, I mean, at that point, I didn't even know it was anything unusual.
	I thought it, I thought there was an intruder in the house, because I didn't get a good look.
	And I ran for the front door to get out of the house, because I thought there was an intruder in that house.
	And between starting up towards the front door and getting to the front door, another one just appeared in front of the door, and I ran into it.
	I didn't really want to touch it, you know?
	I couldn't stop in time because I was getting full tilt.
	So you ran into something that was very solid?
	Oh yeah, it was a being standing there, just as solid as a person, except it wasn't human.
	And I turned around and there was another one.
	And anyway, there was a little scuffle and the first one came over and touched my head or my neck with some device.
	And then I couldn't move.
	After that I was totally, I mean I just couldn't move. In fact, I think I lost consciousness for a moment.
	What did the one feel like that you ran into, in terms of temperature and skin and clothing or whatever?
	Well, it's strange. I never thought of that.
	I think it was a little cooler than normal.
	I almost felt kind of plastic-like.
	But it was like it was wearing some kind of protective something.
	Any kind of visible clothes or emblems or anything?
	I think it was just a little bit of a plastic.
	I think it's hard to tell.
	I was very upset.
	I think they were wearing clothing.
	That's the impression I had is that what I was seeing was clothing.
	But it was like it was all covering them so it's hard to tell.
	Was there like a leotard or something?
	I would almost compare it to what divers would wear.
	Um, you know, like some kind of coating, but it was like protective, too.
	I'm not absolutely certain.
	I mean, it's in the skin.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh, anything about the eyes?
	I mean, they were large and dark and, um, um, I tried to avoid looking at, in the eyes as much as possible.
	I didn't think it was a smart thing to do.
	Okay, the first one and the one in front of the door were approximately my height, and I'm about 5'3".
	The one that I turned around and saw, it came about to my shoulder a little shorter.
	Yeah, it was substantially shorter.
	And during the whole experience, they appeared to be too kind.
	ones that were about the height of my shoulder. The ones that were about my height appeared
	to be in charge and the other ones weren't. And once you were paralyzed, what happened?
	When I was paralyzed I was laying on the ground and I lost consciousness for a little bit.
	And then the next thing I remember is I was standing up behind you, Tara, and I was sitting
	in.
	And I looked across the room, and this one beside the door, he was still standing beside the door, so I guess not too much time had passed, and he was looking at a stone little figurine of an elephant from a knick-knack.
	And this was really weird.
	He picked it up in his hand, but instead of moving his hand to get the different things he wanted, he stretched and bobbed his head.
	Which was really weird.
	It was like a bug or something.
	Um, yeah, not totally around it.
	I mean, he moved his hand a little bit.
	He couldn't get to the back side of it that way, but he tended to move his head rather than his hand if he wanted to see, like, the side of it or something.
	Which was really weird.
	But, you know, he moved his hand some, because, you know, it's not like he could stretch his neck all the way on the other side or anything.
	And then I walked into the kitchen.
	I was being escorted, and then I don't remember anything else until I was in a room.
	Um, and I was either undressing or being undressed, I'm not sure which.
	I do remember dropping my clothes on the floor and sticking them on the table because I wanted to be annoying.
	Annoying?
	Yeah, right.
	And then one of them walked in the room and was just giving me,
	heck, telling me I would behave myself and I would do as I was told, etc., etc.
	And then I walked out into a hallway.
	And then there's a gap in memory again until I got to a room with a table on it.
	And there was some small ones in there.
	And there was some kind of medical experiment done, and I'm not entirely sure about that.
	I get a little confused about that.
	So, Art, there's much more to this woman's story, clearly, but she has never done hypnosis.
	I think it's especially interesting that she describes seeing this being's head moving up and down around the object.
	Other abductees have described a kind of insects like cocking of the head from side to side in other
	encounters whether we call by hypnosis or not. Yes. So that's another part of
	her story that I think matches what some other people have reported and I think it's
	ironic that people like this woman are encountering face-to-face live
	non-human beings in 1995 or at least that's what they think that they're
	encountering while controversy rages so much about the alleged 1947 autopsy
	film of alien beings taken that long ago from the Roswell crash.
	Well, um, I have news on that front, and I know that you are going to England.
	When are you going to be there?
	I'm gonna leave on the 7th and I'll be there at the 8th and during that month hopefully I can each Sunday keep giving back the best reports ranging from whatever is happening over there concerning the Santelli film to what's going on with Crop Circle.
	That's excellent.
	Well, you're going... I will be here for the next two Sundays, so... Okay.
	All right.
	And then it's off to jolly old England.
	Right.
	All right, Linda.
	Wonderful.
	Thank you for the report.
	We've got your commercial coming up, so they'll find out how to get a hold of everything.
	All right.
	Thanks.
	All right.
	Thank you, Linda.
	Take care.
	Linda Howe, and she'll be back with us next week.
	And so that you might know a little bit about Linda Howe, If you enjoy Dreamland's weekly news segments by Linda Moulton Howe, which features updates about mysterious phenomena, then you might want to know more about her books and documentaries.
	Linda Howe is an Emmy Award-winning television producer, writer, and researcher of Earth mysteries linked to non-human intelligences.
	Her books and videos provide scientific data and first-hand eyewitnesses.
	Linda Moulton Howe... Talk to Kevin Randall, co-author of The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.
	Um, and while we're on that track, you all should know, all the Dreamland people should know, that I am now in contact via the internet with Ray Santilli, uh, the man who has the film from which the stills that are available on our bulletin board service and the internet and cyberspace generally are the five stills of the alien creature, the autopsy.
	And, uh, Ray sends me a message back saying, simply, I'd be happy to be a guest on your talk show and gives me his office telephone number in, uh, London.
	And, uh, we're going to call him, uh, tomorrow.
	And we're gonna get that all set up, uh, depending on the time difference.
	It may be on this show or on my regular syndicated show, but an interview with Ray Santilli is in the works.
	Also, you should know that I've got a, um, Forensic Pathology Report or a report on that movie as seen by a forensic pathologist named Dr. Milroy on the photographs that you're talking about.
	I'll try and fit that into the show someplace Uh, this evening, but it's very packed.
	And here's part of that pack right now.
	Uh, Kevin Randall.
	Kevin, hi.
	Hi, how are you?
	Where, where are you, Kevin?
	I'm in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
	Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
	But as you know, I do, I, and I think I can say this, I do a radio program on KTSM, because they also carry Dreamland.
	Right, you are.
	And, um, you, uh, have co-authored a book, right, uh, Kevin?
	Oh, I co-authored a book called The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell with Don Schmidt.
	Right.
	And I've also published another book called A History of UFO Crashes that just came out in May.
	Okay.
	I probably ought to send you a copy, shouldn't I?
	You really ought to, yes.
	You have viewed part of the film, is that right?
	I have seen about eight or nine minutes of the film.
	I've seen part of the autopsy.
	I have seen them arranging debris in a tent or something like that.
	So I've seen parts of the film, and I've of course seen all the photographs that have been circulating.
	Sure.
	I'd like your take on, first, the photographs.
	You've seen them.
	Do they pretty well coincide with what you saw in the movie, or did you see a different segment?
	No, the photographs are clearly from the autopsy scene taken, I guess, they claim, in Dallas 30 days after the crash.
	The photographs are clearly from that segment of the film.
	Okay, good.
	Well, at least we have that established.
	Now, your view of what you saw.
	I think we have to look at this.
	First of all, we have no providence for the film.
	I mean, Ray Santelli has not told us who the photographer is, so we cannot verify that existence.
	And because of that, we have to treat the film as a hoax until it's proved authentic.
	Just the opposite of what we have to do in a court where the defendant is innocent until proven guilty.
	We must prove the film authentic.
	If I get Ray on the show, you would say I ought to press him on who did the filming?
	This is critical.
	We have got to have the photographer.
	Clearly, if the film is authentic, the government knows who he is.
	How many photographers could they have had?
	That's right.
	But we must have the photographer so that we can establish the providence of the film.
	This is absolutely critical.
	Okay, Kevin.
	That difficulty for a second aside, Uh, then your view of the film.
	The film I found intriguing in one respect.
	The shape of the head, the placement of the ears, the size of the eyes all relate to the eyewitness testimony we picked up from Roswell.
	But the creature is much too robust from what we've been told.
	The hands have too many digits on them.
	Clearly there's six digits on the hands and they're very long slender digits.
	And I think the one advantage I had over a number of other people is we could stop the film, go back and look at it again, we could freeze frame it, we could study it at our leisure as opposed to when the people went over to England, they just showed them the autopsy and there it was and that's the end of it.
	So I got a chance to look at the film and I was intrigued by the long fingers.
	Now I'm not a pathologist, so the autopsy, when they showed the creature laid open on the slab, The internal organs didn't look human, because I saw no intestines, I saw no stomach.
	But that only means that those organs may have been already removed, so that I didn't see them, and the organs I saw, I don't recognize.
	It could have been gallbladders and spleens and kidneys.
	That may be Dr. Milroy, the pathologist who viewed the film, suggested when he saw the skull apart, that he did see a brain, though blurry, it clearly did not seem to be, he said, a human brain.
	Well the interesting thing is I've talked to a number of doctors who've seen the stills and they've studied the stills and they said the instrumentation by the body is not the instrumentation you'd expect at an autopsy.
	at an autopsy. There was a Bunsen burner in one of the photographs and there are some
	test tubes and you would think these are not things that would be there at an autopsy.
	The instrumentation should be different. There was no scale hanging down. The table didn�t
	look like a normal autopsy table. There were no grains or anything like that on it. So
	there are still some questions that have to be answered about this film. There are some
	intriguing aspects of it, but as I say, we�ve got to look at it with a skeptical eye.
	All right, well, let's do that.
	I'm going to be speaking apparently with Mr. Santilli.
	Other than who photographed it, what else would you most like to ask Ray if you could ask him?
	What I would like to do, I think what's critical is we get a number of experts in there, and you spoke of one, a pathologist, to see if the procedures are proper for an autopsy.
	But I mean, any other questions for Ray Santilli?
	I think we need to establish the precise date, the precise location of the crash, as identified from the materials.
	Is President Truman in the film?
	Those rumors have circulated around that Truman is in the film, he's part of the autopsy, he's on the debris field.
	Is he in fact in the film?
	Alright, we'll ask.
	I would like to see, and of course there's not a question that you can ask, but I would like to see some of the film
	stock analyzed because I understand that Kodak can tell when the image was
	laid on the film.
	So if we have film from 1947, but the image was laid down in 1990, clearly we have a problem.
	All right, my friend.
	Listen, we're out of time.
	Okay.
	But I really appreciate your assessment of what you saw, and we'll stay in touch, Kevin.
	Okay, thank you much.
	Right.
	Kevin Randall, co-author of The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Dreamland.
	and we'll be right back.
	Talk is cheap, so get your money's worth.
	We're Talk 102.
	Picture this, you're gliding along the river, aboard the... 8255, 1-800-618-8255.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Certainly is Sunday evening, Greenland underway ahead.
	727-1222 or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Certainly is Sunday evening Greenland underway.
	I had Dr. James R. Lewis who has written, among other things I understand,
	the encyclopedia of afterlife beliefs and phenomena.
	And I think that'll be well worth our exploration.
	It is, as you well know, one of my favorite subjects.
	Also, just to add to, and I think you'll probably have some comment on the larger picture here, a fax that just came in.
	Hi Art, in the last 24 hours, there have been four, count them, small earthquakes centered about a mile north of Bellevue, Washington.
	Bellevue, of course, a Seattle suburb directly across, east across Lake Washington.
	These are quakes in the 2.7 to 3.1 range.
	However, as you know, there has been some recent concern about geologic activity.
	Near Mount Rainier, so I thought I would note that for you.
	Coming up in just one moment, as I promised, Dr. James R. Lewis, and we're going to begin talking about the subject of life after death.
	We all know that information is what it's all about, and for those of you who like looking over the edge, well, I've got some really hot news for you.
	It's called UFO Facts World Report, and it's a hot monthly newsletter packed Just the kind of information you've been looking for.
	The latest hard data on UFO sightings, encounters, abductions, and more.
	Gleaning information from around the country and around the world, UFO Facts newsletters put together by a staff of professional journalists.
	It's sent to you every month so you get the latest developments on this timely and elusive subject.
	For an introductory price of just $19.95 a year, you'll have access to all this phenomenal information, distilled into an objective and concise newsletter.
	Dr. Raymond Moody, who has been a guest several times on this program, a best-selling author of Life After Death, said, of Dr. Lewis's book, read the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena, because the answers you seek may be somewhere in here.
	That's Dr. Moody.
	This is Dr. Lewis.
	Let's go to Dr. Lewis now and say, Dr. Lewis, welcome to the program.
	Are you there?
	Yes, I'm here.
	Good to have you.
	Happy to have you.
	I think you're Over in the Santa Barbara area?
	Yes, that's correct.
	All right, Dr. Lewis, I don't have a great bio on you, so before we get started, I've got information about you, but not about how you got from there to here.
	Can you give us a thumbnail sketch?
	Okay, well, when I finished school back in the late 80s, I went to graduate school in religious studies at the University of North Carolina.
	There weren't a great number of regular university teaching jobs and I just kind of found myself drifting into writing and I was very fortunate.
	I got hooked up with a reference book company that allowed me to write very interesting encyclopedias and I've written a series.
	I've done one on dreams.
	I've done one on astrology.
	and this one on afterlife and in the fall I have one coming out on angels.
	And here we go again. Well we've done a lot on angels lately and so we'll talk about angels.
	But so you've done you began with sort of hard tough stuff encyclopedia type work and
	even I noticed that even well it says encyclopedia of afterlife beliefs and
	and it reads about like that right it kind of moves through about everything right right yeah and then I
	I took my background in religious studies and a lot of the what's central to a lot of religions is
	afterlife beliefs so I brought that together with a lot of the contemporary interest in
	and in the afterlife with the kind of near death experiences
	that Raymond investigates and just tried to bring together everything. I think what's
	happened is that a lot of the population now, the baby boom generation has reached a
	point in their lives where they are like over the hill, they are looking down the slope.
	That's right.
	And as a consequence there is a renewed interest in the afterlife and if you go into any large
	bookstore now you will find quite a number of brand new books on the afterlife.
	Okay, well we will come back to the details but as a man who has collated all this, you
	I have a great body of evidence and it sounds very articulate and intelligent.
	I am asking you honestly, are you convinced there is one?
	Well, I don�t normally talk about my own beliefs, but yes.
	Well, it is central though.
	I understand that you compiled all this data, but did it add up in your mind�s eye to
	sufficient evidence that there is a life after this one.
	Yes.
	I'm firmly convinced that we survived the death of the body, our consciousness.
	in some way continues after the body dies and decomposes.
	Okay, there's an interesting point.
	Our consciousness continues, is what you said.
	Now, in your studies of various religions, no doubt you've run into a lot of belief in reincarnation.
	Yes.
	But the way I, I'm troubled by the, my understanding of reincarnation, uh, that souls are reincarnated, that people can be regressed hypnotically into past lives, or many claim even future lives.
	Yeah.
	But, the reincarnated soul is not exactly in the descriptions I've read conscious.
	In other words, I think that any probing for what may have gone on requires
	reducing the subject in question to almost an unconscious state to get to it.
	So where is the continuation of consciousness?
	Well, certainly not in memory.
	I mean I think that if I were to argue the reincarnation point of view, I would say...
	Do you?
	Well, I guess I look at the evidence from past life regression and some of the more
	serious stuff.
	It used to be when you looked at the old stuff, everyone seemed like they were Cleopatra or some kind of prince or general or some kind of Patrick Henry.
	Same problem channeling.
	But I think if you look at what the Association of Past Life Therapies and Research, I think that's what they're called.
	The evidence they produce is that most of the people who they regress turn out to be, you know, just Joe the farmer or the barmaid or somebody and their evidence is a lot more More convincing to me than a lot of the flashier kinds of things.
	I guess I tend to believe in incarnation and...
	Okay, then my question stands, or then you agree with me.
	People say consciousness is a form of art.
	conscious, well that we continue. To me a continuation, and maybe it's just not enough
	depth of understanding on my part, but a continuation would entail a continuation of conscious awareness
	as we now understand it and that doesn't seem to fit into the reincarnation philosophy.
	Well, just because we forget. I mean, if I were to ask you, if I were to say exactly
	one year ago Art, what were you doing? Where were you?
	You're right. And you wouldn't be able to remember it, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have been there a year
	ago.
	You were there and there has been a continuation of your consciousness.
	I know, but I've been in a continuous physical life.
	Yes.
	Well, you know, again, it's a question of... I mean, I really might answer it.
	I could say a year ago, since I lead such a structured life, at this time I was doing this program.
	Because that's true.
	But if you were to ask me, what were you doing on your 45th birthday of your last life, there's no way I'm coming up with an answer.
	Well, I shouldn't say that.
	You might, or a hypnotist might, but I can't.
	Well, we have clues to what we may have done at various stages in this life, but again, the point is just because we don't remember it doesn't mean that we weren't there or that those memories aren't recoverable.
	I mean, they can take you into an operating room, cut off the top of your head, electrically stimulate the memory part of your brain, And you'll relive an experience that you've totally forgotten.
	Okay, here's a parallel for you, see if this works.
	Do you have a computer?
	Yes.
	Alright, so then there are programs that sit on your hard drive, inactive.
	And until you activate them, bring them alive, so to speak, they sit there, for all intents and purposes, dead.
	Yes.
	Is that roughly the state?
	Yes, I would say that's a good parallel.
	Well, then that's not as much as I had hoped for.
	In other words, I viewed the afterlife as perhaps containing something more than dead cyberspace.
	Well, I mean, I think even people who believe in reincarnation feel that there is another realm beyond the physical where the soul remains for a greater or lesser period of time.
	That there is a heaven world beyond this one too.
	It's clear in a lot of the Indian traditions, I mean South Asian traditions, where most of us get our reincarnation notions, the idea that you eventually reach a point where you don't reincarnate anymore and then you're presumably hanging out in some heaven world or something like that.
	Unlike Western notions of having a world.
	Okay, well let's talk about NDEs then, because they too seem to, sort of in a way, clash with all of this.
	In other words, people that have been to death's door, or across it, or I don't know if you ever get across it unless you're dead, maybe you just get to the door, but the classic experience, the white light in the tunnel, and the other people who have died, your relatives, people you have loved.
	Yeah.
	Um, now, what's happening there?
	Is that, is that part of the road toward a reincarnated state, do you believe, or?
	Well, no, I mean, I think, I think with the near-death experience, Yes, and here again I'm talking about my own beliefs, which I try not to talk about.
	But I believe that that's a foretaste of what will happen when you finally actually do die.
	And again, even a reincarnationist scheme, when you die in this lifetime, you don't immediately
	reincarnate into a new body, but you spend a greater or lesser time in a heaven world.
	Okay, well, from the stories we get, there seems to be consciousness during this whole
	process.
	Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.
	And I would say that there are even memories from that time that you spend in that state,
	how you would access those memories, I'm not sure.
	So then, I know, it's like asking how high is the sky, but I'll probe anyway until you
	stop me.
	Okay.
	So, our consciousness as we know it now, our reality, continues to be that reality through
	a near-death experience and presumably into it and or until we are reincarnated or not?
	Well, um...
	To tell you what I believe, I believe that when I die I will go into a realm of light and communicate with people I knew from the past.
	I will still be in a state of full consciousness or even fuller consciousness there.
	and interact and communicate with people in a spiritual realm that is a highly refined state.
	I really don't know what I will see or anything like that.
	Well, you no doubt have interviewed people who have seen things.
	Stand by just one moment, doctor.
	We'll be right back to you.
	We're speaking with Dr. James R. Lewis, who's written along with other things the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
	Let's look very carefully into all of this.
	Right back.
	Here's something that kills toxins in the air.
	Helps you and your employees avoid things like headaches, sinus and respiratory problems.
	There are A zillion stories running around of people who have gone to the white light, into the tunnel, and all the rest of that.
	To a lesser degree, there are stories, not as well publicized, Doctor, of people who have gone to hell.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Or maybe hell's door.
	Yeah.
	And back.
	Have you looked into that at all?
	Well, to tell you the truth, I've never personally talked to anybody who's had that experience.
	A couple of years ago I asked Ray Moody about it and he said, you know, I've never in all my years ever talked to anybody who's had that experience.
	He's a psychologist at the University of Connecticut.
	He's also done a lot of this kind of research and he had never spoken to anybody.
	And so it's difficult for me to comment on that.
	Alright.
	You wrote a chapter in this book on exorcism.
	Yeah.
	Now, the reason I think that's important is because it's one more clue.
	I mean, obviously, if an individual is possessed, it is possessed of something that is either a soul gone or a power beyond.
	Yeah.
	So what did you discover?
	Well, I have talked to a number of Catholic priests who have actually done exorcisms and also at least one conservative Christian minister who feels like he's done an exorcism and I believe that what happens in those cases is that a disembodied spirit of some sort comes in and tries to
	Get back into the physical by controlling another person Do you think this is a spirit of one who has been in the
	physical world or do you believe this to be a spirit?
	the devil Well, I mean so many exorcisms seem to involve the removal
	of a spirit that is to our eyes
	creating evil Yes.
	Well, I think that even if we say that in all those cases it's a case of a soul who was human trying to get back, that if that soul is willing to dominate another person to override their will, to take over possession of their body, we're talking about a soul that's not very ethical.
	So that whether one wants to believe in a devil doing that or not... Interesting question, the ethics of possessing somebody else.
	One would think that everybody would strive for life.
	And that holding, grabbing and holding life, even if it happened to be in somebody else's body, might be argued as Well, I mean if you were starving and there was a little
	child next to you and you took their food away so that you could live, you might say that
	there is a higher ethic that requires you to do that, but I don't think that our
	ordinary people who crash in high places with lots of snow and mountains have ended up normal
	people with cannibalism.
	Well, cannibalism is one thing because you're eating the body of someone who's passed on.
	You're right, of course.
	But, you know, if you are actually depriving somebody else of life so that you can have
	life.
	I mean I think again one can always argue and say that that would be ethical because we're all animals and our primary goal is to survive.
	In fact, let's just break it off here, and we'll come back, relax for about seven minutes or so, and we'll talk about exorcisms and more.
	Very interesting topic, rarely touched on on this program.
	Dr. James R. Lewis is my guest.
	This is Greenland.
	You're hearing Greenland with Art Bell.
	To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
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	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's exactly what it is, Sunday evening, Greenland underway.
	My guest is Dr. James R. Lewis.
	He has written the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
	That is examined evidence that would lead one to believe there is or is not afterlife.
	He firmly believes there is.
	and we were about, well sort of in the middle of a bit of a discussion of exorcism.
	And we'll get back to that in just a moment.
	The Alpine air purification, right, exorcisms.
	Did you study any particular exorcism?
	And everybody remembers the movie The Exorcist.
	And all the things that went on, the head twisting and turning and the green pea soup and all the rest of it.
	What generally is an exorcism really like and what symptoms would a typically afflicted person or possessed person
	demonstrate?
	Well, the interesting thing about exorcism is that you have the phenomenon of possession exorcism across the globe.
	It's not just something that's That's very interesting and I really hadn't had an awareness of that until I really looked into it.
	There is frequently some kind of struggle between the person doing the exorcism and the spirit who is doing the possession.
	Well, we all know what it would be like in our culture, say with a Catholic priest, and I know the church very carefully investigates any case before they okay an extreme measure like an exorcism.
	What do other cultures do, and is it successful?
	Well, structurally, not in terms of what's said, but in terms of structure, it's not totally dissimilar from Western exorcism.
	In China, you bring in a local Taoist priest, traditionally, who would address the spirit, would talk to it, and would demand that the spirit leave the person.
	Maybe at first they would try to persuade them.
	Then if they refuse they would demand and then there's like a fight between the will of the spirit and the will of the Taoist priest and some of the familiar phenomena even like objects around them you know falling off shelves or moving around the room and the person will even get very very heavy and the bed will sink down which is recorded in Western exorcisms and there's There's all this very dramatic kind of phenomena that are associated with this battle of wills.
	Doctor, how do we even get evidence of what goes on in an exorcism?
	For example, does the church not hold these records very carefully and closely?
	How do we ever get insight?
	Oh, I mean...
	There are plenty of exorcisms that are recorded.
	There's an exorcism literature that you can go to a good university library and look up.
	It's not just confined to the Catholic Church.
	I mean there are even Protestant exorcism manuals.
	Now most mainstream denominations look at that as superstition now
	and don't like to talk about that.
	But I have a good friend who is a Methodist minister and he showed me a Methodist exorcism manual.
	Really?
	Really.
	But the modern Methodist church has been so influenced by secularism that it kind of looks
	at that as antiquated superstition so it doesn't like to admit.
	Well of course they will admit it but they don't practice exorcism.
	I can't imagine a contemporary Methodist minister performing an exorcism but apparently at one
	time that was done.
	Alright, my mother's husband, my stepdad, married to her for 30 years, died within the
	week, within this week.
	Perhaps she's listening right now.
	And I'm going to fold this into a question about communicating.
	Is it possible, Doctor, to communicate with those who have passed on?
	Well, again, certainly worldwide, that has been a belief.
	That has crossed all cultural boundaries, all boundaries of area, all boundaries of religion.
	And very frequently people report talking to the deceased immediately after they're dead.
	Or shortly thereafter.
	Yes, that's right.
	And that's some huge percentage of adult Americans, better than 50%, I knew this exact statistic at one time, reported that having an experience of someone who just after they
	die had come to them to communicate to them that I'm alright,
	don't worry.
	And then people many times report dream states in which it seems like someone that they knew
	who passed on was communicating with them.
	And of course...
	Well, when we're asleep and we're dreaming, We're in an altered state, correct?
	And I would assume that communication at that moment, if it is possible, would be ever so more possible.
	Yes, I think so.
	We're not as preoccupied with what we're doing in the outer world.
	We're in an inner world, so that if someone on the other side of life were wanting to approach us, it would seem like the dream state would be an ideal one to try to reach at them.
	And of course there's the phenomenon of spiritualism which began as a movement in the middle of the 19th century in this country that was built around communication with the so-called dead.
	And the spiritualist services that I have seen Well, you know, we can always be skeptics, but they're very convincing to me.
	Well, I am skeptical, but there was Houdini.
	Houdini was a great mystic.
	Houdini promised, said if there was any way it could be done, he'd do it.
	Yeah.
	There are those who have claimed recently, I'm in communication with one of them, that he communicated with Houdini.
	The best evidence so far has Houdini, in fact, Uh, made it back with word.
	This person that you were talking with?
	Well, I say I've got somebody who claims that he's communicated with Houdini.
	That, that little story aside, what's the best evidence?
	Has Houdini managed to get any message through in your opinion yet?
	Uh, yeah, I'm trying.
	I don't believe, I believe that there was some sort of agreement that he made with his wife, if I remember the story correctly.
	And there was some kind of agreed upon, kind of coded message.
	That's right.
	That he was to send to her.
	And so after he passed on, his wife went to all these various mediums and psychics and Again, if I remember correctly, none of them were able to satisfy her that they were in communication with her husband.
	As of yet.
	Right.
	But that was the kind of experiment that a lot of spiritualists were interested in.
	Particularly the British were very interested in trying to prove existence of life after death and they made all kinds of agreements.
	I don't know.
	They went on and did all kinds of experiments and it seems like that movement just kind of faded out.
	that and the other.
	I don't know, they went on and did all kinds of experiments and it seems like that movement
	just kind of faded out.
	There were so many hoaxes involving me.
	They kind of...
	They clouded it all up?
	Yes, that it made the general public look skeptically on all mediums, even the ones who were at least attempting to be serious.
	I look very skeptically at the channeling business.
	My very own sister, Doctor, has been a channel.
	And I've told her, just as I'm going to tell you right now, I'm sorry, but I think it's a bunch of baloney now.
	Maybe not, and maybe there's some seed of reality behind the whole concept of channeling.
	But in your studies, what do you conclude?
	Well, I've gone and listened to quite a few New Age channels.
	Whenever I do, I think of this very amusing thing that I heard the Swami say.
	The Swami said, if all of these channeled entities are such highly evolved beings, how come they never seem to be able to speak English right?
	Which is not to ridicule the whole phenomenon, But a lot of it strikes me as very carnival like and that's not to say that people can't be mediums or channels for people on the other side because a part of me is inclined to think that they can but when I look at the new age channeling business I'm just
	I mean I went and saw this gentleman who claimed to channel dolphins.
	I mean, I'm sorry.
	You know, that's on the one side, but on the other side, Doctor, I have talked with so many real people, and you'll hear them this morning or this evening, I'm sure.
	I mean, substantial people who have talked to people who have passed on, and there was no doubt about it.
	You know, they can't perhaps convince us, they can tell us a story, but the stories
	are credible and the people are credible.
	So something is going on.
	Yeah, well I mean I do think that there can be communication from the other side.
	I think that in many cases there is a lot of wishful thinking involved and sometimes
	that's all that there is.
	But other times, I think too many people report it for it to be complete or to completely dismiss it.
	I do think that there are authentic examples of communications from the other side.
	So do I. Let's discuss for a second the other side.
	What is, your best guess, the other side?
	In other words, is the other side another Dimension, is the other side a higher astral or a spiritual plane or what is it?
	Well, gosh, again, I don't normally talk about my own belief, but I guess I think, personally, I think in terms of different planes or levels or dimensions of reality, Uh, that are separated from each other by what we might call a different vibratory rate.
	Okay, this comes very close to, are you familiar with Dr. Monroe?
	And the Monroe Institute.
	I've interviewed Dr. Monroe, and that is more or less what he believes.
	There are levels, many levels, and you concur with that.
	That's the way I tend to view things, in terms of a spectrum, if you will, of levels.
	Fascinating.
	Doctor, hold on just one moment.
	We'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Dr. James R. Lewis.
	Who has written, after all, the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
	We'll be right back.
	Many of you health-conscious folks know about antioxidants and their amazing health benefits.
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	Well now, there are new antioxidants on the market.
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	You'll want to remember that name if you're a health-conscious individual.
	Why?
	Well, according to Richard Passwater, Ph.D., and an authority in the field, you're being bombarded by something called free radicals, toxins, environmental and otherwise, that break down your cells and damaged tissue.
	They cause you to age faster, develop stiff joints, and wrinkles sooner than you ought to.
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	Back briefly to the subject of UFOs, don't forget we have the five most incredible still photographs of the alleged Roswell autopsy that you've ever seen.
	They're on our bulletin board.
	it's open twenty four hours a day up to twenty eight eight baud
	great at bob mcdonald phone numbers of area code seven oh two
	seven two seven one seven
	zero nine seven oh two seven two seven one seven zero nine it is not
	the only source of information though
	you will fax is another it is a
	it's a newsletter which is just absolutely with the kind of info all of you i know are looking for
	Hard data on UFO sightings, encounters, abductions, everything that's going on as it goes on.
	Gleaning information from all around the country and the world, UFO Facts Newsletter is put together by a staff of very professional journalists and sent to you every month so you know what's going on.
	The phone number, free to call, free phone number anyway, 1-800-830-9830.
	Anyway, 1-800-830-9830.
	Back now to Dr. Lewis.
	Dr. Lewis, let me ask you, we're moving through a lot of territory here before we get phone
	Thank you.
	Is there magic?
	Um...
	As in...
	Oh, voodoo.
	Um...
	As in practices by certain people and cultures around the world that claim to what, to me anyway, would be the ability to do It's a good word for it because it's way beyond my understanding.
	Well, to sound like a broken record, again, the basic idea of magic and a belief in magic is something that one finds across the globe, in every culture, in every major religious tradition in the world.
	Well, look, together your comments are very important.
	You are saying of all these things that they are commonality.
	Yes, yes, that this is a universal human belief and it has only been since the rise of a kind
	of secular world view in very recent centuries in the West that there is even a real serious
	possibility of doubting a lot of these traditional kinds of beliefs.
	Because traditionally, people believed in them.
	You know, it was just natural to believe that one's consciousness would continue after death, for example.
	Do you believe it is possible for one person to put a curse on another, in effect?
	And an even more important question, I guess people can put curses on, voodoo and so forth, but in your opinion, does it require the belief of the victim for that curse to be effective?
	You thought this was going to be an easy night?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	Well, again, I rarely talk the personal of it, although I don't mind talking about this.
	I just thought I'd be talking more about the beliefs and promoting the book.
	We can promote the heck out of your book.
	I don't think that those are the things that are effective.
	Like some people believe that if you take a certain kind of a substance from the earth and say a certain verbal formula that that's effective.
	To the extent that there is magic, I think it's in terms of the will of the individual magician.
	Okay, we're at a break point.
	We've got a break here and that's where we'll pick up because that provokes a wonderful question.
	We'll be back.
	This is Dreamland.
	Talk 102.
	Thank you.
	You're right, you're right.
	Right, and so that would make you much more... Terrible.
	Terrible, much more fearful, much more anxious.
	Yes.
	And so certainly that is a major factor in traditional societies.
	I don't know I mean I guess where I tend to believe in magic is not in what we normally think of as magic but more in terms of creative visualization.
	I mean I think that the studies I've seen of people who are sick for example have something wrong with their foot and if they visualize their foot being well it gets better. Or if they are sending healing thoughts to
	somebody, that is much more difficult to measure. I think that somehow those thoughts have an
	impact. It is as if thoughts or ideations, it is almost like you send out an energy. It is hard for me
	to...
	But you are saying it is real.
	I am saying that I believe that it is real. I don't think that you are saying that it
	You're going to have a magician whose will is powerful enough to imagine a train going off track and be able to affect the train.
	Maybe I'm wrong.
	You'll like this.
	Let us imagine for a moment a future in which much of what you write about has been in effect proven.
	Now comes a fact from Aaron in Carson City.
	Speaking of ethics, he says, as our technology advances to the point where mind, spirit, intellect, time and space are more understood, may we face some real dilemmas?
	In other words, what happens when we discover the point in time when a human has an actual spirit beginning intellect?
	What if possessions are aborted spirits trying with anger or confusion to get back to the corporeal world?
	Will there be class action suits on behalf of spirits?
	That a new technology might allow us to communicate with that we're deprived of a chance of life by an uncaring mother, doctor, and or society.
	There may be cosmic rules and regulations that we have violated.
	We may have to send all lawyers to the other side, beyond etc., before we go much farther.
	That's from Aaron.
	Well, it reminds me of a joke.
	What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
	A good start.
	A good start.
	Yeah, that's right.
	But I mean, it does imagine a future in which many things that are not now recognized are.
	Yes, well, it's funny you mention that.
	Right before you called, I was watching, my wife had the television on, I was watching sightings, and there was a law case in which A medium's testimony in a trial would help to convict somebody of murder.
	Wow.
	And that raises all kinds of very strange questions.
	Well, you may recall in the O.J.
	Simpson trial, there was testimony about a dream that O.J.
	supposedly described to somebody that was supposed to be evidence in helping to convict him of those murders.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I mean, when you start blurring these boundaries, It does raise all kinds of questions.
	I do want you to promote your books.
	Now, you have just written a book on angels, and here's a kind of a weird thing, Doctor, that I'll pass on to you.
	A lot of people that have been researching UFOs, researching the spirit world, suddenly, for some reason, have turned angels, and angels are suddenly All the rage!
	Yes.
	All the rage!
	What's going on with angels?
	Well, it depends on the perspective you want to take on that.
	I mean, I think that most religious people have always believed that they were angels, but they hadn't really stressed them.
	I mean, if you look through the Bible, There are constant references to angels, but when an angel does something, the people in the book say God did such and such and so and so.
	Even though they describe the angel as doing it, they always ascribe what the angel accomplishes to the Almighty.
	The focus is never on the angel per se.
	You know, the focus on angels is, I think from a traditional religious point of view, kind of problematic because you're taking the attention away from God and you're focusing it on God's agents.
	And that is indeed what you believe angels are, God's agents, not spirits that have once been earthbound?
	Well, I think that there's a lot of confusion in contemporary angel literature.
	In tradition, angels were a separate order of creation.
	That's very clear in the western religious tradition.
	In the contemporary angel literature, that boundary gets not just confused, but it seems like it drops.
	My dead uncle George, who comes and helps me, I start describing him as an angel.
	And even in some of the popular movies, we see people dying and we see them portrayed in heaven as having wings, which was traditionally just described as angels and not the part of human beings.
	But I think that the contemporary angel literature really collapses those boundaries.
	And so that any kind of visitation from the other side is thought of as being angelic.
	Does this mean I might get wings?
	I mean, I kind of always envisioned that.
	I like the wing part of it.
	Well, I don't know.
	I think the wings are symbolic.
	Symbolic of power and spiritual flight and all that.
	I don't think that's meant to be taken quite so literally.
	I see.
	Let's take a couple of calls for the fun of it and see what's going on here.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	Um, is this out there somewhere?
	Yes, it is.
	Where are you calling from?
	Uh, Santa Clara.
	Santa Cruz?
	Santa Clara.
	Santa Clara?
	Okay.
	Welcome to the show.
	Uh-huh.
	Go ahead.
	You mean I'm talking to him now?
	Yes, absolutely.
	You're on the air.
	You're on the air.
	Oh, I've got a question.
	I want to know something about apparitions.
	Uh, this was about, oh, five, six minutes ago now.
	I was sitting up in bed, watching TV, and I fell asleep.
	And all of a sudden I woke up and along the edge of my bed was a little man about four feet long and he had a brilliant colored red, green coat.
	And I mean, I started, I screamed and I turned to pick up my phone.
	I was going to call 9-1-1.
	9-1-1, yeah.
	And when I looked back, he was gone.
	But I saw him plain as day.
	All right.
	How is that possible?
	Well, all right.
	It is actually, it leads us into an interesting area.
	Apparitions generally.
	Doctor, I have several photographs that I believe to be photographs of real ghosts.
	I solicit and I want those photographs and anybody will send them to me as rewarded.
	Some how or another they will get it in my book or whatever.
	But are there apparitions, are there ghosts and can they be indeed photographed and what
	do you think that lady saw?
	Well it's hard to tell what she saw because she was coming directly out of a dream state
	and when you are in a dream state you are already in an altered state of consciousness
	and as you know when you first wake up you are still sort of back in a dream and so I
	think that her consciousness was much more open when she woke up so that perhaps she
	could see something on the other side.
	She saw something that was more mentally produced, like a dream image.
	As far as apparitions go, what again this kind of traditional spiritualist literature says is that by, have you heard of ectoplasm?
	Oh yes!
	that supposedly our bodies exceed a certain energy and that people or entities on the
	other side by lowering their vibration and by kind of taking building blocks of energy
	from the people in a room that they can actually construct something that is visible to the
	naked eye in just ordinary consciousness.
	Do you believe you have documented evidence of that?
	Well, I think that enough people have seen apparitions and enough I have all this background in academia but basically I'm a believer.
	I have a skeptical training as a skeptical scholar.
	What can I say I have all this background in academia but basically I am a believer.
	I mean I have a skeptical training as a skeptical scholar.
	As it should be.
	Yes, but you know enough people have reported seeing things like that that I give it credibility.
	I haven't myself seen what I would call an apparition.
	I have a question.
	How do people get possessed?
	Are they open to it in some way?
	I have a question.
	How do people get possessed?
	Are they open to it in some way?
	Basically I have this really irrational fear that that's going to happen to me.
	How does it happen?
	How can you avoid it?
	It's a good question.
	I mean, can she put on some metal helmet or something and not be possessed?
	Or even more to the point, would an irrational fear of being possessed possibly be more likely to lead to it?
	I think what I have seen among contemporary psychologists who give possession to some I don't think so.
	serious attention, what they say is that the people who are most likely to be possessed
	are people who are very negative, who right off from the get go don't feel very positive
	about this life, or people who are involved in some other kind of escapism like drugs.
	So in some ways they have already taken a step back from this life and that that allows
	us to have a space so to speak, a vacuum, for another spirit, entity, soul, whatever
	to step into that vacuum. You know what, that might sell better than
	just say no. Doctors, stay right there, we'll be right back to you. You're listening to
	Dreamland, I'm Art Bell. North American...
	727-1295, 727-1295, be the 702 area code.
	Now again, here's our bell.
	Here I am, and my guest is Dr. James R. Lewis.
	A lot of you, I bet, didn't know I was involved in Buddhism, but I was, and you're about to find out about it.
	Stay tuned.
	You also don't know that a bill has been introduced into the Senate.
	Uh, an actual Senate bill requiring the Treasury Department to, uh, replace our existing greenback with a new funny money.
	Kind of colored money.
	I'm not looking forward to it.
	But there's more to the bill than just that.
	It will create a money used inside the country and another money that you use outside the country.
	Now, traditionally, two-tiered money systems have been created so that you might devalue the domestic currency while holding the value of the international currency up.
	Ta-da!
	So, here's the deal.
	Simple deal, too.
	North American Trading will send you a free copy of this bill, no strings attached, because they're smart.
	They sell gold, see?
	And, um, you see.
	And, um, once you've read this bill and you realize what's going on, the, uh, moved gold will be natural.
	But for right now, I was wondering if you could tell me the basis of the movie.
	I heard it was from a hospital in St.
	Louis.
	I'm sorry, the Exorcist.
	Now the question was garbled.
	Yes, I heard it was from a hospital in St.
	The Lumbergeist or the Exorcist?
	The Exorcist.
	The Exorcist.
	What exactly...
	For now the question was garbled.
	Okay, you wanted to know the origin of the story, was that correct?
	Yes. I heard it was from a hospital in St. Louis.
	I honestly don't know.
	The information I looked at nobody talked about where the story came from.
	I did come across some very interesting information that while they were making the movie The Exorcist they had all kinds of Very strange, bizarre phenomena occur on the set.
	Really?
	Yeah, with like, you know, poltergeist type phenomena.
	Oh no, I've never heard that.
	Oh yeah, and the people who were making the movie actually got kind of spooked while they were doing it.
	Well, I've seen a lot of scary movies in my time.
	But, and maybe it was because it was, you know, the first of the genre.
	Maybe it was because the church was involved.
	I don't know what it was, but I'll tell you this.
	It scared the hell out of me.
	The exorcist really scared me deeply.
	Well, do you know, now this is something that's very interesting.
	Well then, every 20th frame had some kind of like a... Oh, oh, oh!
	That's a great hook!
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Still right there.
	Dr. Lewis is my guest.
	And every twentieth frame had what?
	Ha ha!
	We'll find out in a moment.
	We'll find out in a moment.
	Talk 102!
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	For more information, call this number.
	1-800-575-WELCOME.
	Your heart will thank you for it.
	Nothing beats a night out at the ballpark, especially when it means so much to the children of Central Illinois.
	Hi, this is Talk 102's Rich Drazier.
	And I'm Jack Kress.
	Join us this Monday evening at Piedmonachin Stadium as the Puritans take on the Burlington Bees.
	That should be a heck of a game, Rich.
	And an equally good opportunity, Jack, to support the Cokes for Kids campaign.
	Yep, just bring in a new or used children's coat with you to drop off at the front gate, and your donation will get you into the game for just a dollar.
	And it'll help the Salvation Army keep these urban area children nice and warm for the winter ahead.
	So, join us, won't you?
	Hey, good job, Jack.
	Yeah, thanks, Rich.
	You know, one thing's still bugging me.
	What's that?
	It's kind of warm for coach, isn't it?
	No, it's for the winner.
	Didn't you pay attention to what I just said?
	Huh?
	What?
	You talking to me?
	This Monday, it's Coach for Kids Night, as the Chiefs host Burlington.
	Join Talk 102, the Salvation Army Children's Hospital of Illinois, and the Peoria Chiefs in supporting this outstanding program.
	Remember, bring a child's coat, new or used, to the game.
	Coats for Kids.
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	Good evening and here's the Talk 102 forecast for Central Illinois.
	Tonight, a 30% chance of showers and thunderstorms.
	We'll have an overnight low of 72 degrees.
	Tomorrow, a 40% chance of storms.
	A high on Monday is expected to be around 90, and on Tuesday, partly sunny, hot, and humid, with a high near 95 degrees.
	At 833, it is 80 degrees.
	Keep listening.
	More of Dreamland is coming up here on Talk 102.
	This is Talk 102.
	Think of us as food for the mind.
	This hour of our show is recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
	I'm a snake, you know.
	From the kingdom of Nod, you're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
	To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	1-800-618-8255. First time callers, area code 702-727-1222 or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Dreamland in the nighttime from the high desert.
	Dr. James R. Lewis is my guest, author of the Encyclopedia of Afterlife Beliefs and Phenomena.
	We'll get back to him in just a moment.
	Absolutely fresh flowers.
	Boy, I guess you gotta, you know, there are stories that you have to retell because it's the only way to properly impart the information.
	And, uh, several years ago, Dexter Yard, a flower farmer, came to me.
	I was doing a radio show and said, Look, I'm a flower farmer.
	I don't, you know, I don't sell to people.
	I sell to wholesalers.
	What would you think of the idea of advertising and seeing if we could sell directly from my farm to the people?
	I said, yeah, sure.
	You know, sounds pretty interesting.
	Send me a typical shipment, would you?
	And he did.
	And here came this gigantic shipment of flowers in a big triangular box.
	Man, I was pulling flowers out of there and pulling them out.
	And I thought, yeah, right.
	I mean, this is really typical shipment.
	So I ordered one under an assumed name to a different address.
	Lo and behold, here comes the same size shipment.
	And boy, I said, you're going to make a lot of money.
	And he has.
	They're miniature carnations.
	That's the history of how it began.
	And, um, what he'll do is, you call, you're calling directly to the flower farm, he'll go out and cut flowers, put them together, and ship them out anywhere in the U.S.
	of A. by FedEx, means you call today, and they deliver tomorrow, just like that, and you'll knock somebody's socks right off.
	Comes with a little personalized, written, handwritten card from you, and flower preservative.
	Total price, $39.95, including delivery.
	3995, birthdays, anniversaries, you can't go wrong.
	The number is 1-800-562-6438.
	One, eight hundred, five, six, two, six, four, three, eight.
	1-800-562-6438.
	One, eight hundred, five, six, two, six, four, three, eight.
	Now, every twentieth frame, Dr. Lewis, of the Exorcist, what about that?
	Well, remember when they used to, in movies, they would flash up like popcorn or Coke or something
	just a fraction of a second that you couldn't see or you couldn't see consciously.
	Subliminal advertising.
	They passed laws against that.
	Yes, they passed laws against that.
	But before those laws were passed, they made the exorcist.
	No kidding!
	So the Exorcist is one of the few movies in which you find that.
	No kidding.
	From what I heard, every 20th frame had some horrible picture like a skull or something
	and that's one of the reasons why that movie is so eerie.
	If you compare it with later kind of Exorcist movies, the later ones even though they are
	maybe heavier in certain ways, they just don't scare the socks off you like the original.
	Oh my God, that's a really fascinating story.
	I had no idea, and I did.
	I sat in mortal fear watching that movie.
	A lot of people have nightmares after that.
	I'll bet they did.
	Oh, that's really interesting.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. James R. Lewis.
	Hi.
	Hi, where are you sir?
	I'm going from St.
	Louis.
	Great show art, Mr. Lewis, as usual.
	For what it's worth, the events in The Exorcist were based on events that happened at St.
	Louis University Hospital.
	It was a teenage boy instead of a teenage girl.
	Where would one look up the particulars on that?
	I'll tell you what, I thought on one of the afternoon tabloid shows.
	St.
	Louis University has a well-respected Catholic theology seminary there.
	I'd just go to the theology department and ask around about it.
	Boy, that's a good start.
	Thank you very much, St.
	Louis, Missouri.
	I have had some of the same experiences.
	The power of will is awesome, but only if your will is allowed.
	Rudolph Steiner best explains it, the theory of dimensions, belief systems and vibrational
	frequencies is the key to the whole process.
	Doctor it sounds to me like that is about the same place or belief system you have developed
	as a result of all of this, is that correct?
	Well, it depends.
	You said a whole lot of things there, but the will can guide the consciousness into other dimensions, if you will.
	I think that's what the out-of-body experience people have found.
	That's the power that allows you to have access to other realms.
	But again, pretty close to the Monroe Doctrine, we'll say.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you, sir?
	Well, I've probably got the wrong line, man, because I'm in Wichita, Kansas.
	You're right.
	You're east of the Rockies, and you're on the west of the Rockies line, so I've got to move on here.
	I'll go to the real east of the Rockies line.
	You're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Is this Dr. Lewis?
	Yes.
	Hi.
	Is this our fellow?
	Yes, it is.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
	All right.
	And I was just wondering, I don't know how much information you have about satellites, but when we look up in the sky we see, they almost look like planets when they move different directions throughout the sky.
	Sure.
	And, uh, I was just wondering if satellites can go different directions, or... Okay, the answer is yes, sir.
	It's not related to what my guest is talking about, but, um, what we call polar orbiters, uh, are constantly on different tracks as they crisscross, uh, the Earth.
	So the answer to that is yes, and you will see them going in different directions.
	When they make right-hand turns, get concerned.
	Um, east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hello.
	No, I think they gave up just as we came to them.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hello.
	Oh, hello.
	How are you doing today, Art?
	Fine, sir.
	Great.
	I wanted to ask you, uh, ask the doctor, uh, well, actually, I want to give you a story to ask.
	Uh, one night, I'm, uh, sitting there watching TV, and, uh, yeah, it's about 3 o'clock in the morning, and a commercial comes on, and, uh, so I turn my head to ignore the commercial, you know, and, uh, I look out into the other room, and it was dark in the other room, And then coming past my door was a spirit, you know, and it was darker than the room was, so it had a complete outline.
	and it had like a holocaust robe on where it completely covered the head up and you
	could see the face, the facial features on it and you could see the robe and it was floating
	a couple of inches off the ground and it was floating just going in a straight line past
	the door.
	And then the very next day I went over to this other guy's house who he introduced me
	to and this guy starts telling me about this book called Duranta and I wanted to ask the
	doctor first of all if he is familiar with people seeing this type of ghost.
	I mean, you know, the Holocaust robe is kind of strange, because I always pictured a ghost as being a white figure floating up by the ceiling, not something, you know, floating on the floor, you know, darker than the room was.
	It is, it is an interesting, uh, line, uh, doctor.
	People who see entities or ghosts or spirits, do you find that as you study cases like that, that they say their expectations are met of what that entity ought to look like, or that it was completely outside what they could have even imagined?
	It's an important question.
	Well, I think the answer to that is mixed, because I think that The experience of seeing so-called ghosts is not a simple phenomenon because sometimes I think people do simply project and see something that's not there.
	You understand the implication of the question.
	In other words, if they see what they expect to see, then obviously the chances they made it up in their own mind are greater.
	And then in other cases I think that the person is actually seeing something of a spiritual
	or quasi-spiritual nature.
	Something real.
	Something real.
	I mean that is again talking about my personal belief system tonight.
	Well that is fine because you are a guy who has studied all of this more than we have.
	And I think that what you are saying is that when you see something that does not meet
	your expectations, that the world is not going to be a better place.
	It reinforces the sense that it may actually be a real experience.
	You're darn right.
	If you don't see Casper the Friendly Ghost, but instead see someone in a black robe, it's like... A holocaust robe, as you said, or whatever.
	Right.
	Right.
	All right.
	All right.
	Well, that's kind of what I concluded from the question.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Where are you calling from?
	I am calling from Liberal, Kansas.
	Liberal, Kansas.
	Yes, indeed.
	This is Dorothy.
	Of course it is.
	Oh, what? Um, doctor.
	I'm searching for a replacement.
	You have a friend of mine, the mayor of Willamette?
	Yes.
	There was a book written about her called In Search of the Soul.
	I cannot for the life of me remember who wrote it, but she had agreed to be hypnotized by a hypnotist in California
	somewhere.
	And the book is utterly fascinating.
	They wanted to know how she wrote these books that she wrote that were so... You were right there with them.
	By the way, ma'am, as we get the answer to your question, I'm friends with, and know personally, Taylor Caldwell's A husband who survives, of course, and is in Las Vegas.
	Doctor, would you like to comment?
	Well, what I was going to say is, back on her regression, where they recorded everything, that she actually dwelled in another solar system, besides having other earthly lives.
	And many of the books that she wrote were in regards to her own life.
	Right, and Doctor, there are a lot of people who claim in regressions That in fact they regressed to a place or to a life that was not on this earth.
	Have you run into that?
	It's not what I would call universal, but it's something that you find reasonably regularly.
	And you know that people say that they had an incarnation on another world.
	That seems to be so outside what somebody would normally imagine that it's a good example,
	I think, of adding to the credibility of this whole field of study.
	It just is not something you would expect to emanate from somebody's imagination.
	They would relate to things of this world, not of another.
	And it's interesting that you find even a few cases of that back in the 19th century
	where people will start talking about a lifetime they had on a different planet.
	There's even a few few recorded 19th century cases of that in the Spiritism which is a French variant on spiritualism and unlike American spiritualists who denied reincarnation the Spiritists believed in reincarnation.
	And some of the Spiritists claim that they could remember lives on other planets.
	Is that something embraced by the Native American belief system?
	Well I don't think that Native Americans would talk in terms of other planets.
	I think that they would conceptualize it differently in terms of other If you have scaling in your pipes, you've got problems.
	If you've got scaling, you've got mineral deposit.
	stand by doctor i'll be right back to you if you have scaling in your pipes
	you've got problems uh... if you've got scaling you've got mineral deposit it's
	not good for anything uh... but you know that
	I mean, your car, when you wash it, you get the white spots.
	You've got, uh, your pipes are caking up.
	Your water heater, uh, is costing you more money.
	All around, it's a bad, bad situation.
	And I know that you know that.
	And a lot of people have been down the road of trying to do something with, you know, hauling chemicals to, uh, Uh, to treat the water somehow or another.
	It's enough to drive you crazy.
	There is a way to handle it.
	It's magnetics, and it really does work.
	I have it here in the house, or I wouldn't advertise it.
	I know it works.
	Magnetics does condition water.
	I know it seems impossible, but believe me, it does.
	And when it's done, and it takes a few days to take hold of running your water, um, Your water's great.
	It's better for everything.
	Your skin doesn't itch, hair, food, clothes, appliances, you name it.
	Even your pool.
	The cost is $400 to $600, depending now on the size of your home.
	Best of all, it comes with a 90-day money-back guarantee.
	Check it out.
	If it is not what I say, you get your money back.
	Call them toll-free.
	GMX.
	It's 1-800-4060.
	G-M-X.
	That's 1-800-4060-G-M-X.
	And now, briefly, pycnogenols.
	These are antioxidants.
	Vitamin C is an antioxidant, and the scientists at UCLA have determined that the antioxidant value of vitamin C will help avoid cancer, strokes, heart attacks, may increase life expectancy an average of five years.
	That's a lot of time.
	Well, uh, there are new, more powerful antioxidants now on the market than vitamin C. Pycnogenols are about 20 times the antioxidant value of vitamin C. Well, so what?
	Don't say that, because antioxidants battle inside your body something called free radicals that destroy cells, damage tissue, cause you to age faster, give you stiff joints, all kinds of things.
	So, if you would like Pycnogenols and you want a big battle to go on, and believe me, you do, and destroy these free radicals inside your own body, Well, go research it at your library, but when you want pycnogenols, which you will when you know, call 1-800-856-1119.
	Now these particular pycnogenols, the ones advertised here, are pharmaceutical grade.
	They're made from 95% pure grapeseed extract.
	The number is 1-800-856-1119.
	Back now to Dr. Lewis.
	How are you holding up, doctor?
	Well, I'm still here.
	Probably not the easiest two and a half hours you've ever done.
	Oh, no, you're a very good interviewer.
	I've been on radio programs where I'm discussing the cult issue because I don't believe that cult brainwash people and I get in arguments and those kind of shows are much more draining.
	Uh-huh.
	All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Joanne the Witch from San Diego.
	Oh, you're a witch.
	Yes, I am.
	I'm a practicing wiccan.
	And you're a good witch, right?
	Well, that's what they say.
	Now, what does that mean?
	Well, uh... I don't care what they say.
	What do you say?
	Oh, well, I don't put it in terms of good and bad.
	No?
	No.
	Uh... Well, I'd say it's good.
	Of course you would.
	I don't think in terms of white or black.
	But it's a nature worshipping religion and that's pretty much the basis of it.
	And I'd like to thank Dr. Lewis for his very positive comments about Wicca itself.
	You're quite welcome.
	And I've heard about the reincarnation and that's a big part of Wicca also.
	How much background do you have as far as the study of witchcraft in general?
	Have you ever heard of a fellow by the name of Aiden Kelly?
	Well she's gone.
	Oh okay.
	I used to work with one of the people who founded one of the witchcraft traditions and
	it's kind of complex to explain traditions but I used to attend his circle on a regular
	basis and I'd also go with him to larger neo-pagan festivals.
	I would say my direct contact with the movement, at one time my life was very extensive.
	I haven't really done much in that area for quite a few years.
	Was the nature of your study academic or did it become for you personal?
	In other words, did you begin to enter the realm?
	Well I mean I practiced it as when I would attend the gatherings I would participate in it in the same way one would participate in a church service although Wiccans may or may not like that comparison.
	I may be dealing with a warlock here.
	Well, warlock originally meant someone who squealed on other people so contemporary male
	witches would not claim the title warlock.
	No, what would they claim?
	They would say they are a witch.
	The Neopagan movement is used for both male and female.
	Fascinating.
	All right.
	First time caller line.
	You're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Turn your radio off.
	That's first.
	I wanted to ask, have you ever investigated three different types of spirits?
	All right.
	I'll leave it at that.
	I don't deal with people who leave their radios on.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hello.
	This is Bob from Wheeling, West Virginia.
	Hi, Bob.
	I think you need to be a little bit kinder to the people calling into your show.
	Well, you think I'm mean?
	Well, a little bit.
	I mean, I've heard you hang up on some people you should leave.
	You know, like... Yeah, there are certain rules, Bob, to the show.
	No, uh, no radios on in the background, that sort of thing.
	And, uh, I do adhere strictly to those rules.
	Do you have a question?
	Uh, no, I just wanted to tell you, you know, be a little bit nicer.
	Okay, well I guess I'm a mean, uh, mean, mean guy.
	But to effectively run a show, uh, there are certain rules I lay them down.
	If people don't adhere to them, then I guess I'll just have to be viewed as mean and live with that.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.
	Hi.
	Hi, is this the Dreamscape?
	Dreamscape?
	No, this is Dreamland.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	Where are you?
	I'm Tony Kinney.
	I'm in Mayford, Minnesota.
	Okay, and do you have a question?
	No, I'd just like to comment about the people who happened to see small men, like those people who saw them before.
	I'm not understanding you, sir.
	I'm sorry.
	Those people who, that woman who called in before and talked about Okay, well I'm sorry.
	We have to move on.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Lewis.

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