Art Bell

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June 11, 1995 - Art Bell

01:13:25

Dreamland with Art Bell - Maryland UFO - The Govt and UFOs - George Knapp

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26:13

linda moulton howe

08:48

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		This hour of art by recording or rebroadcast at this time.
unidentified		Please do not call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas of the human experience not matched.
		Put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not met.
		And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		Sunday evening, and yes, once again, this is indeed Dreamland.
		Hi, everybody.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Great to be here this evening.
		It's beginning to be summertime in the high desert, probably running about 105 degrees out there, more like what we expect.
		Nice and cool in here, though.
		As usual, Linda Howe will be here from Philadelphia, update us on what's going on, and I understand there is quite a bit of activity.
		She is generally considered to be the world's expert on crop circles and animal mutilations.
		She'll be followed by George Knapp, who is a mainstream journalist who did a lot of...
		I'm going to give him credit for that.
		We're going to do a good general show on UFOs, and I know he's got a lot of information on Russian, we'll talk some bit about that.
		I want to welcome K-O-M-O Biggie up in Seattle, Washington, now carrying Dreamland full-time.
		1,000 on the dial in Seattle.
		I want to welcome WKNW in Sault Ste.
		Marie, Michigan.
		Welcome to the show.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's, let me see, about 50 feet in diameter, connected to another smaller circle by a straight line about 12 to 15 feet long.
		And I'm supposed to be getting those photographs next week from a photographer who went there and I talked to tonight just very briefly before we went on the air, who told me that the formation is still there, very clear, very clean in this smoggy or this marshy, boggy tattail.
		That was May 26th.
		On Thursday, June 1, a few days later, in a barley field in the far northeastern corner of Maryland, in a small area, the director of a local community school was puzzled to find three rectangles quite neatly carved in a barley field behind the school.
		Each rectangle was approximately 17 feet long and about 4 to 5 feet wide.
		In the same barley field, in approximately a 1 3rd square mile area, there were several other areas of downed barley, not like rectangles, as much as they were simply odd shapes with very complex lays of the plant stems.
		I've been there.
		We've collected plant samples.
		I was looking at things such as four layers of barley laid down in 90 degree angles on top of each other in four directions so that you had one layer to the ground going one direction and then over that was another layer of barley going at a 90 degree angle and above that was another layer of barley going yet another 90 degree angle and on top of that more barley going another.
		So it almost looked like a plaid, if you can imagine that.
		And we have seen this kind of complex layering also in the formations in England.
		And we are trying to find out, of course, what might be able to create these kinds of formations.
		And as of today, we are watching these fields in Maryland.
		We have already heard just preliminarily that the nodes are quite swollen in the plants collected from those formations with reoriented growth nodes, very similar to what we have found in England.
		But again, we are not certain of the cause.
		Now, one interesting note is May 31st through in that June 3rd, 4th period, there were no storms in this particular part of Maryland.
		There is no known source for the downed barley plants as of this date, and we are going to study the plants now for further physical data, and I'll report more when I know them.
		Now, exactly the same date that the strange barley, we'll call them downed plants because they aren't exactly formations as in England, were found in Maryland, on that same day in Sussex, England, northeast of Alfreston, a 250-foot-long formation was found extremely neatly cut into barley in Sussex.
		And this was referred to as looking like the Catherine's wheel, a symbol related to an alleged saint going back to 400 A.D. who was hurt on a wheel that had scythes coming out in four positions around it.
		And the woman, apparently in touching this wheel, she was supposed to have been hurt on this wheel.
		When she touched the wheel, it broke apart.
		And later the church declared her as a saint.
		Well, it's been known as Catherine's wheel since that period of time.
		And this formation in Sussex on June 1 looks like a Catherine's wheel for whatever reasons.
		Now, the very next night, on June 2nd, Tom and Kerry Borr of Gwen, England had traveled over to Knapp Hill in Wiltshire, spelled exactly like George Knapp's last name, K-N-A-P-P.
		They were camped out on Knapp Hill in Wiltshire looking towards what is now the famous Woodborough Hill, where many of us have watched in the night for any objects in the sky.
		Most of us have never seen anything, but on June 2nd, just a few days ago, Tom and Carrie Blower did see something unusual in the sky that reminded them of a white amber object that they videotaped two years ago, and their tape was also included in the sightings program.
		Now, I'm going to play for you an excerpt of this eyewitness testimony on June 2nd from Tom Borr, and then I'll tell you something more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that report now from Linda Howell.
unidentified		It was a bright, a very bright green light.
		It was big.
		Not like a traffic light, you see.
		Right?
		It was that kind of green.
		It was very bright.
		It was sort of dancing around in the sky.
		And at one point, it was like several white bits dropping off it, you know?
		Like, it looked like sparks.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		White sparks.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Coming off of the green color of a stocklight.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how big, if you put your hand out at an arm's length distance and you compared to the size of this green light, how would you compare it, say, to your fingernail or the end of your finger?
unidentified		Oh, it was like the size of a golf ball.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Like a moving golf ball.
unidentified		Yeah, that sort of size.
		Okay.
		It was big.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how did it move in the sky?
unidentified		It was just dancing around.
		It happened so quickly, it's difficult to sort of say exactly how.
		But it was making erratic maneuvers, I think, is the best way to describe it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Erratic?
unidentified		Yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Did it go both forward and backward and up and down, or did it...
unidentified		It was like going all over the place, you know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it was in what area?
unidentified		It was over West Field.
		You know East Field?
		Well, the hill that...
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Donald Pryor.
		That's West Field.
		And then you've got Woodborough Hill behind it.
		Right.
		It was over West Field, actually.
		And you saw this for about how long?
		Three minutes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It's a long time.
unidentified		Oh, two minutes, two minutes.
		Two or three minutes.
		What was really that?
		Quite a long time.
		I think it was between about two or three minutes.
		Okay, and was it moving close to the top of the wheat?
		Oh, no, it was quite high up in the field.
		It was over the field, but it was quite high up in the air.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And in terms of that field, it is planted with wheat this year?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Westfield is planted with wheat?
unidentified		No, Westfield was planted with rape, I believe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, with rape.
unidentified		Okay.
		Yeah.
		There was actually a circle in there at the time.
		There was a circle?
		Yeah, which had been made some weeks before.
		It was quite a scruffy one.
		And it was generally considered to be a hoax.
		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right, but just if that was Friday, then somewhere over Saturday and Sunday at some point near Apebury, the Catherine's wheel was formed, and you guys were in there on Monday.
unidentified		What was your reaction to the Catherine's Wheel when you saw it?
		When I pulled up and I got on top of that of our van, I've got a forward van.
		I got up on top of it and had a look, so I had a pretty good view of it.
		And it looked good.
		It looked really neat.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it was flat?
unidentified		Eh?
		It was very flat?
		What, in the lake?
		Yeah.
		Yeah, pretty flat, but there was standing crop there as well, you know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, I understand that the weather was terrible in England.
unidentified		It was very wet.
unidentified		And it was rainy, and it was windy.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		When you looked at what you were seeing in the Catherine's wheel, given rainy, windy weather, what were your reactions to that?
unidentified		Well, it was just as good as anything I've ever seen, you know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And did that seem like that it would be possible?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't you think that the wind and the rain would have blown everything apart?
unidentified		Well, I don't know.
		I couldn't really say on that one.
		I mean, I would have thought that it would have been difficult to have made it in those conditions because it was raining quite heavily.
		Right.
		You know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But that's what I was trying to get at, that it sounds like it's a remarkable formation, especially in the light of such terrible weather.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		Yeah.
		Quite right.
		Yeah.
		Absolutely.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So, Art, inside of very gusty winds and rain, something that several people who have seen the Catherine's Wheel say was remarkably perfect was somehow made in and around approximately the same time that the blowers saw this odd green moving object not close to where the Catherine's wheel was made.
		But it's as if we have a lot of different phenomena occurring at the same time, all of which are quite unusual.
		And when they tried to get their camera out on June 2nd, and they had these two or three minutes in which to act, and they have been doing this on a weekend basis now for two years.
		This is not something new to them.
		They said they could not believe that their battery, which was new, showed that it was not functioning.
		They could not get the camera to function, and the entire three minutes was lost.
		They never got anything on tape.
		And as they described this, this glowing green light with white sparks coming off of it, it reminded me of that banana yellow cigar-shaped object that I and three other people saw in Pensacola, Florida a year ago and that I described on Dreamland that also seemed to have 4th of July sparkler kind of sparks emitting from it.
		I do not know what this kind of light is.
		I do not know what these objects are, but clearly these are phenomena that cannot be described as being normal aviation aircraft in the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Doug and Phoenix wrote what I told you.
		He said, I saw sightings on TV last night that showed some incredible home video of some crop circles being formed by a ball of light.
		The video was shot during the daytime just outside of Apebury, England.
		As the video was being filmed, two Army helicopters flew into the area.
		They saw the people who were doing the filming.
		One of the helicopters Went and hovered over the ball of light.
		The other flew over the photographers and tried to scare them off.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I understand that that has happened, that they were English Army helicopters, and who and why they were there is interesting.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And again, what are these strange balls of light that scores of people now have seen with their eyes and a few people have been able to get on videotape?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The videotape is certainly impressive.
		Linda, we're very short on time.
		Give us your address and contact.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I welcome communication on all kinds of subjects to Linda Howe, Post Office Box 538, and that's Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, spelled H-U-N-T-I-N-G.
		D is in dog O-N, Huntingdon Valley, P-A.
		The zip code is 19006, and my fax number is area code 215-4919842.
		For those of you who have asked about my books and videos, you can contact for information also at that address and phone number or check with your local bookstore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since they're in all the big bookstores now.
unidentified		We're trying.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		We're trying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda.
		Excellent.
		We will speak with you next week.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, a million.
		That's Linda Howe, and again, acknowledged to be the world's expert on crop circles and animal mutilations.
		George Knapp is just around the corner.
		All models come with a one-year warranty, including in a blur of speed into outer space.
		I watched through a 7x35 lens.
		I contacted the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, and he gives a number, and they reported that many people are reporting sightings like this in California and on up through the state of Washington, including one from a lady in El Toro.
		The center believes something is going on, and I do too.
		Keep up the good work.
		Carl in Fontana.
		Now, somebody I haven't talked to in a long time.
		His name is George Knapp.
		He's an investigative journalist.
		He's been in and out of various forms of investigative journalism, I guess, for years.
		I guess I'd rather let him tell you about it.
		Hi, George.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art?
unidentified		Great to be back on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's good to have you.
		George, you're probably better equipped than I am to speak of your career.
		It's been a really interesting career.
		When I first came to Las Vegas, I think you were the anchor person on Channel 8.
		That's what I recall.
		That's true.
		And so you might want to start a little before that and kind of carry us through who you are and where you've been, because, you know, I've got a lot of new affiliates and they don't know you.
unidentified		Well, I was with KLAS-TV here in Las Vegas for 10 years, general reporter, general assignment reporter, then investigative reporter, then anchorman.
		I left for three years to pursue the UFO stuff full-time, producing documentaries, and recently returned to KLAS in March, and I'm back as an anchor in one of our evening newscasts.
		I'm also doing investigative reporting and twice-weekly commentaries, but I've always kept a hand in the UFO stuff on many fronts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious, George, since you've been such a mainline journalist for so many years, when you began to look into the UFO business, I know you produced UFO's The Best Evidence, which is one of the best things ever done on the subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how did Channel 8 react then when all of this was thought of in not quite the friendly light that it is today?
unidentified		Well, there was some trepidation going in, but I think they had enough confidence in me to know that I would treat it seriously and fairly, and so they were very supportive.
		It's my other colleagues in journalism that didn't seem to care for us covering this.
		It's interesting.
		I've been chastised on an ongoing basis.
		It's really never stopped mainly by the newspapers, but other TV and radio stations here in Las Vegas as well.
		They just can't seem to stand the fact that someone would take this stuff seriously, so they have a lot of fun at my expense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I experienced the very same thing since I do a regular weekday show.
		And I've always let it just sort of run off my back like water off a duck's back.
		And I hope you've managed to do the same thing.
unidentified		Oh, of course.
		And a lot of it comes with the territory.
		You're in the public eye, so you can expect to take some shots.
		The problem, the thing that bothers me about it is that most of the people taking the shots have never done a whit of research into the topic.
		They haven't even driven down the road to Area 51 to check out what might be going on there.
		They have no idea of the breadth and depth of information that's available in the field for anyone who wants to take the trouble to look at it.
		You know, I've been featured in a couple of editorial cartoons in the local newspaper here, one that showed me with a butterfly net chasing a UFO.
		Another one that showed me as they had alien extraterrestrial hitmen coming to Earth to get me, and the two ETs were trying to decide which gasoline pump was me.
		The media columnist here in town had some fun.
		He said that people were rushing home to see my UFO reports nightly.
		Not that they were interested in aliens, but that they wanted to see if I would go bull goose loony right there on the set, my eyes bulging and foam coming out of my mouth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I could trade cartoons with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had one done of me that was really awful.
unidentified		Yeah, I remember seeing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm glad you got it.
unidentified		And unfair, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I thought so at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, and absolutely ballistic, but I'm feeling better about it now.
unidentified		So it's weird that people that really have no knowledge of the field at all automatically decide that anyone who's involved in it is nuts.
unidentified		And although there is a certain nut quotient in UFO research, there's a lot of serious people that do a good job and do good research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the answer is, and those who criticize and write these cartoons might bear in mind, They're easy shots to take, you know, and I think we're beginning to get to the point where the public sees them as that many times.
unidentified		Well, I hope so.
unidentified		You know, there was one that I did a series here in Las Vegas on alleged alien abductions, and the paper just really ripped me anew when they had the headline was something about they were kidnapped, emphasis on the nap by aliens, and they dubbed me the grand mullah in the church of stratospheric proctology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
unidentified		Which is pretty funny.
unidentified		Yeah, that is some humor in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And usually in 12 or 24 or 48 hours, you start to be able to begin to see the humor.
		George, UFO is the best evidence.
		If you were to try to describe that very thorough report to somebody who had never seen it, and you were to hit the high points, what would you say to them?
unidentified		Well, this was back in 1989, which according to my media colleagues, that was the year that I went insane.
		We produced a 10-part series and then a two-hour documentary for Channel 8.
		It really traced the development of ufology.
		It looked at the major issues in ufology, but the central focus of it and the part that drew the most attention was the look at Area 51, the allegations by former workers out there that we had had alien technology being tested in the desert.
		And the reaction to it was incredible.
		I mean, not a day goes by, even now, five years later, six years later, when I don't get someone who's just seen a bootlegged copy of the tape call me up to get an update on it.
		I've since produced some other tapes using the same topic, a three-part set that does much the same thing.
		It doesn't concentrate so much on Area 51, but looks at how ufology has been treated by science and journalism, examines the government cover-up, which I believe is still ongoing, and a lot of the main issues in ufology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The government just released some new information about some sort of craft that they actually have developed that I believe they use for surveillance.
		I don't think it's a manned craft, but it looks like a saucer.
		Have you heard anything about that?
unidentified		Well, I've heard probably just the bits and pieces as you have, but it's something that I think we all felt was coming for a long time.
		And when the government can build its own flying saucer-like craft, it gives it a new excuse for dismissing any legitimate UFO sightings around the country, around the world.
		It can say, well, that could be one of ours, and that may be the real reason that they built something to look like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's an interesting thought.
		The actual reason for the construction.
		I'm going to hopscotch all around here, George.
		Sure.
		Russia, I know that you were going to Russia, or were going to go to Russia, or did go to Russia, or what have you brought from Russia?
unidentified		Oh, just a tremendous amount of information.
		You know, we suspect the reason for the trip to Russia was we suspected that our government has studied UFOs secretly, takes them seriously behind closed doors, that they have infiltrated UFO research groups, that they've spied on UFO researchers, compiled dossiers on them, they've disseminated disinformation in order to muddy the waters about ufology, and they've shown no inclination to open the doors and tell us what they really know.
		In fact, even though the Cold War is over, they seem to be going in the other direction.
		That military mindset concerning national security and not letting the public know what's going on can probably best be demonstrated by what's happening up at Groom Lake.
		You know, the Cold War is over, and yet here they are seizing additional acreage around so people can't look down on a base that supposedly doesn't exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, traditionally people have been able to go up there and get in a certain perch and almost look down on the area.
unidentified		Sure, not anymore, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's really over now.
unidentified		Well, pretty much.
		There's another location where you can still see the base, but it's so far away it's of really no practical value.
		And it's interesting that we've signed the Open Skies Treaty, which allows any nation that signs it, any signatory, to fly over and take all the pictures they want.
		But the military has deemed that American citizens should not be allowed to take a look at the base that they say officially doesn't exist.
		It makes you wonder who they think the real enemy is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, surely the Russians get much better looks at it than we do.
		I mean, they have satellites that pass directly over their head.
		As a matter of fact, some of the better photographs have been Russian, haven't they?
unidentified		That's some of the stuff that we had back in 1989 that showed the base in all its splendor, the base that they won't officially acknowledge.
		Even just a couple of weeks ago in federal court here in Nevada, a judge ruled that the government doesn't have to reveal what the name of the base is.
		In fact, the military said we don't have a name for it.
		So what we brought back from Russia was just incredible.
		Assuming that our government was never going to tell what it knows, maybe the Russians, because of the tremendous political changes that had occurred over there, would do that.
		And we spent almost a year preparing for the trip, went over, contacted sources who had never spoken about this publicly before.
		We didn't want people who had spoken to hard copy or current affair and been on television over here in the States.
		We wanted people who were in a position to know but had never revealed what they did know, and that helped us a great deal.
		We brought back several hundred pages of previously classified documents from their Ministry of Defense that indicates the Russians have been studying UFOs at their highest levels of government and scientific establishments since the late 1940s, exactly what we suspected the Americans have done.
		We brought back numerous documents, still classified, that indicate that the Russians know a great deal about the American cover-up.
		They say that we've had 30 to 40 UFO listening posts set up around the world to monitor this activity.
		The Russians have documents concerning transmissions they intercepted between ground control and our space missions, in which astronauts had encounters with UFOs.
		Their cosmonauts, by the way, had the same kinds of encounters.
		It's just a treasure trove of information.
		I've just, in the last few months, finally got all of it translated and analyzed it, and it confirms most of the suspicions about what we have about what the American government knows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I can't remember what program it was, George, but there was one specific program that really shocked me.
		It documented the case of a UFO over a Russian missile silo.
		And it suggested in the report that the Russian missile silo had gone to activation, had become activated, and they were actually in a countdown mode.
		And this damn thing was going to launch, and there was a UFO hovering over it.
		After the incident, it didn't launch, according to the story, they tore the panels apart, they tore all the launch sequencing computers apart and all the rest of it, and could find no reason for what had occurred.
		Is that a true story?
unidentified		That is a true story.
		I have the original documents in my hand as we speak, the witness reports from more than two dozen military witnesses, most of them officers, who filed reports that were sent to the Ministry of Defense that described the incident.
		For a period of more than four hours, numerous UFOs were spotted dancing around over this ICVM base.
		They would appear, disappear, split in two, perform incredible maneuvers, changing shapes, changing colors.
		And these were reported, as I said, by numerous witnesses.
		Right before the UFOs disappeared, the launch control panel at the base lit up like the 4th of July, and someone or something entered the launch codes.
		In other words, these missiles were ready to go.
		Then, boom, the UFOs disappeared.
		The launch control panel went back to normal.
		The folks, some of the sources that we dealt with, are Colonel Boros Sokolov, who was the head of the Russian UFO study for a 10-year period, was sent in to investigate.
		They took the panel apart, found that there was nothing wrong.
		They'd never seen anything like it.
		No other equipment at the base was affected by whatever this was.
		They concluded that the UFOs, whatever they were, wherever they were from, were sending some sort of a message.
		A message such as, this may be your most powerful weapon system, but it doesn't impress us all that much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that message came through loud and clear.
		And, you know, I don't know a lot about the Russian chain of command, but I've heard that with regard to their nuclear materials, their command structure is much less independent than ours, and it takes a hell of a lot directly from Moscow to get something in a position where it could launch.
		So that's an incredible story.
		George, hold on one moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		That really is some story.
		You're listening to Dreamland.
		Many of you helped.
		We gave out phone numbers for Seacrane.
		You know, it's a brand new Seacrane Company catalog out, finally, 79 pages of what I call the Bible of radio.
		And we got 6,000 calls.
		It was all that we could handle, and a lot of people missed it.
		So if you want a catalog now, tonight is your last chance.
		It must be post-dated by tomorrow.
		Post-dated by tomorrow.
		But here's the deal.
		Here's the deal.
		You write them a letter or a postcard.
		Simply request a catalog, and for your trouble, you will get a free catalog, and you will get a free little coupon worth $3.20 toward the purchase of anything at all in the catalog.
		And they'll include that just for your asking.
		So send a postcard or a letter or something to the Crane Company.
		C-R-A-N-E, Crane Company, Fortuna, California, F-O-R-T-U-N-A.
		F-O-R-T-U-N-A, Fortuna, California.
		Zipcode 95540-2350.
		That's the Crane Company, Fortuna, California.
		Zipcode 95540-2350.
		And they've got the DL telephone right now in stock and almost out of stock.
		It is the digital portable telephone.
		It's all digital.
		It sounds as good as anybody's regular plug-in telephone.
		I guess it's the best telephone on the market right now, and we've really gone to a lot of trouble to test them all, and I don't know how I could live without mine.
		That's the Trope telephone.
		If you want one, call the Sea Crane Company early in the morning at 7.30 at 1-800-522-8863.
		Beginning at 7.30 in the morning at 1-800-522-8863.
		All right, George, a few minutes here before the top of the hour.
		I guess we're going to jump around a lot.
		You say there's a lot of information out of Russia.
		How do you think this will be received here?
		In other words, a lot of that information must kind of chop away at whatever government cover-up is going on here.
unidentified		Well, I'd have to agree with you, but thus far they've done pretty much what they always do.
		They ignore it.
		I mean, I guess they're hoping we'll just go away, which is not going to happen.
		So far, even though this information has been described by some ufologists as some of the most important stuff to come out in the last 20 years, the government thus far is keeping arm's length from this.
		I have passed this information along to some congressional investigators who found it very interesting.
		What will happen to it, I really don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you've got to wonder where they find the stone wall.
		And I also sometimes wonder, and I wonder if you do, since you're a major investigator in this area, George, are we useful idiots for the cover-up in a way?
		I wonder about that myself.
		In other words, we report on these things, and the waters with all the reports of UFOs get so muddied that it's almost like the government doesn't have to do a job.
		Sometimes I think we sit out here in our own way and do it for them.
		I try not to do that, and I'm sure that's the case with you, but there's a lot of information coming out, and the mere volume of information seems to kind of muddy things up.
unidentified		Exactly.
		You know, it's almost UFO overload these days.
		You've got shows like Sightings and Encounters and Unsolved Mysteries.
		You've got the X-Files, you've got the tabloid shows that do it, you've got a lot of radio shows, yours being the preeminent one that discuss these topics.
		And there's so much going on in the field, you can't possibly keep up with it.
		Even somebody like Linda or myself, who do it almost on a full-time basis, in that sense, it allows the government to stay off the hook.
		And I worry that the public, which the general public, gets so much of this stuff that they look at it like the movie of the week.
		Well, that was interesting.
		Now let's see what Letterman is doing.
		You know, switch the channel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or if finally NBC One Night comes on and there's a big story about a landing, you know, something really substantial, maybe people won't even be all that.
		I mean, of course it would be a big story, but not the story it once was.
		It's as though we're almost ready for it, isn't it?
unidentified		Well, a lot of people have said that over the years, speculated that there's some sort of a government program to condition us all for the alien reality, get us ready for the big announcements.
		And there were even studies done by the Brookings Institution back in 1960 for NASA that suggested that, you know, if you don't condition the public to deal with something like this, our social institutions would collapse.
		I've never seen any proof that there is an actual ongoing program, but I'll tell you, if there was one, this is exactly how things would be panning out.
		You'd have all this media, different kinds of television shows.
		You'd see aliens and commercials almost on a daily basis for all kinds of different products, aliens selling cars, aliens selling hamburgers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's true.
		It's really true.
		All right, George, relax a few moments.
		We'll do some news here at the top of the air and be right back.
		George Knapp, a journalist in Las Vegas, is our guest this evening, and there's a lot of interesting territory and your calls ahead.
		You're listening to Dreamland, which must mean it's Sunday.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk 102.
unidentified		See for the child.
		I've got 21 children on the Child Reach Plan.
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		I think it's a great organization.
		For two years, we've been searching for a humanitarian cause for Romada to sponsor.
		This is where our search ends, where there's a childcare agency called ChildReach doing their great work.
		Our children come from proud families, families that want to work more than anything.
		That's what makes ChildReach different.
		They work with the entire family, with the community, to get them standing on their own two feet.
		Composer Burt Bachrack, Ramada's president Steve Belmatte, and Catherine Hepburn have each been touched by the life-saving work ChildReach does for needy children overseas.
		To find out more about ChildReach sponsorship, call 1-800-652-1200.
		1-800-652-1200.
		And please do it now for the children.
		Time for the children.
		To clean or not to clean?
		When it comes to preserving old buildings, that is the question.
		I'm Jim Mitzner, and this is the pulse of the planet.
		We're listening to the sounds of workers scrubbing a century of dirt and grime off of New York City's famous Dakota Apartments.
		Kate Burns Ottevino is Director of Preservation for the architectural firm of Aaron Krantz and Exeter.
		When deciding whether or not to clean, you begin from just looking at the building overall for what are the patterns of how the building is dirtying.
		Is the way the building is dirtying indicative of a larger problem at work on the building, like faulty gutters or location to an exhaust pipe from another building?
		Then as you get closer to the surface, you begin to take samples of the dirt itself and the substrate that it's on, whether it's stone or brick, and you take those back to the laboratory and you look at them underneath a microscope to get a sense of what is the interface between the dirt and the substrate itself.
		At the same time, you look at what kind of natural state would the stone or the stucco be if it were in its original condition.
		On the Dakota apartments, we looked at components of the dirt itself, which turned out to be gypsum, fly ash, soot, dust, oil.
		And those results were compared with fresh stone and fresh brick that had not weathered that had either been in storage or protected from the environment.
		What we found there was indeed that some areas of the masonry required cleaning and others didn't, but in order to give an overall effect to the building of home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's interesting to note when that occurs.
		The network lines all lit up.
		My fax machine went bananas.
		Everybody said the subject material is too sensitive.
		They'd cut you off.
unidentified		Well, I think people don't trust the government.
unidentified		Figured that the government was somehow behind it, and I don't rule that entirely out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what?
		I don't either.
		So let's see.
		What could we have missed?
		What could they have missed?
		The one thing that we were into that was damn sensitive.
		Let's try it again.
		Let's see if they cut us off again.
		The Russian, I would bet, George, that it was right as we were talking about this Russian launch sequence business.
		And again, the report was that something hovered over a Russian launch site, that the whole panel lit up.
		The thing went into a launch sequence, which it ought not be able to do.
		There were UFOs all over the area.
		And that's extremely frightening to me.
		I can't imagine how that could happen.
		They tore the whole panel apart.
		They didn't find a thing.
		And you verify that story is essentially correct, isn't it?
unidentified		That is true.
		According to the official Ministry of Defense documents that we brought back and had analyzed, numerous witnesses that described the UFOs over the base, we have the statement of the launch control officer who said that the panel, it wasn't just lit up from a power surge.
		Someone entered the actual launch codes of these missiles, and then as soon as the UFOs were gone.
		The launch control panel went back to normal.
		This is very similar to a series of events that happened here in the U.S. in 1975.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now's going to be my next question.
		Yeah, it's happened here as well.
		If they're going to cut us off, here we go.
		So it's actually happened right here.
unidentified		Exactly.
		According to documents that were squeezed out of the Pentagon through the Freedom of Information Act in 1975, UFOs were sighted over five bases in a two-week period along the U.S.-Canadian border.
		These are nuclear bases, and the same sort of thing happened.
		The launch control instructions came from somewhere, and the launch codes were changed.
		Our government is not saying a whole heck of a lot about that, but we know it happened, and it was real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the things that the government has always said, you remember Project Blue Book and all the rest of it, the end conclusion was always UFOs may exist, but they constitute no threat to national security.
unidentified		Well, that's just baloney, and we know from the government's own documents that what they're saying in private is different from what they say in public.
		There are numerous documents that refer to national security threats from UFOs, and we know from the experience of other governments around the world that they consider UFOs to be a national security matter.
		Even in England, I was there last summer to investigate the crop circle phenomenon.
		We interviewed some people from their Ministry of Defense, and they say that they monitor UFOs because of the potential national security implications.
		Now, they deny that they monitor crop circle activity, but admit that they do watch UFOs, which may be hovering around in the crop circle area.
		The Russian government obviously thinks that UFOs are a threat to security, or at least they're a concern about security.
		The French government admits that it's had the UFO study going on for years.
		The Belgian government has been investigating UFOs openly.
		It's only our government that seems to say that UFOs aren't a threat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you a good analogy or see if you think this is a good analogy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know about the recent Ebola breakout in Zaire.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was a 60-minute story about the monkey house thing in Reston, Virginia.
		Remember that?
		Yep.
		They had what they thought was airborne, human-killing Ebola virus out in Reston, Virginia.
		They didn't tell the public one damn word.
		I mean, this is something that could have conceivably spread across and killed everybody where 90% of the people in this country had it been real, and it almost was, and they didn't say one word.
		And if there is a matter of national security, national health, national concern, I can't think of a bigger one than that.
		And they didn't tell us until long after the events.
unidentified		Well, it's a military mentality that's been perpetuated since the beginning of the Cold War, maybe even before that.
		They regard us as not needing to know.
		And it's manifested itself in a lot of different ways over the years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, in some ways, I understand that.
		I mean, in other words, even though the Cold War is supposedly over, it's not exactly.
		And we are developing new aircraft.
		And how do you react if I were to say, well, we've got to have an area like Area 51 or an area like it, someplace where we do our secret testing?
		How do you react to a statement like that?
unidentified		Well, I agree completely.
		I mean, I think most of the work that's done out at Area 51 is valuable and important to national security, and they do need an area like that.
		But I think they could acknowledge the existence of the base.
		I mean, you know, their denial in federal court that they even have a name for the base is patently ridiculous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, we ought to at least be able to know what the Russians already know and have known for a long time.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, there have been a lot of reports that the nature of what's being done at Area 51 has changed.
		And a lot of the saucers, if they were there, have been moved.
		Do you know anything about that?
unidentified		I do.
		I've been in contact with some congressional personnel over the past couple of years who've been very helpful to me, people who have security clearances to go into that base.
		I can't give you their names on the condition that that was the condition given to me to get the information.
		I briefed two people in the past year and a half who have gone out to Area 51, looked around.
		In fact, they took helicopter flights over what's known as S-4, the area where Bob Lazar said saucers were housed in hangars built into the side of a mountain.
		If those hangars were there, and I believe that Bob is telling the truth, they're not there anymore.
		It's just rubble in the desert.
		There's no facility at all there.
		And it would make sense because if, in fact, there were these alien craft out there, once it hit television, thousands of people started trekking out into the desert to see whatever it was.
		A lot of folks go up there looking for UFOs.
		A lot of people look for advanced military aircraft.
		A lot of people just go up to have a good time.
		But so many people have been out there looking at that base that it would make sense that they would have to move something like the saucers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So where do you think they might have gone?
		Is there a best guess?
unidentified		A couple of stories that I've been told.
		You know, that the Nevada test site is a vast, uninhabitable region.
		There's places in there that very few people ever see.
		They could just house it in a number of different facilities out there, just stick it in the ground for a while until things cool down.
		Some have suggested to me that we have a National Security Agency facility in Pine Gap, Australia.
		That's been the subject of a lot of speculation.
		Some people suggest that maybe the saucers went with the stealth aircraft when they moved from Nevada a year and a half or two years ago to New Mexico.
		New Mexico, of course, has a long history of UFO activity, a lot of secret bases there.
		And perhaps when they moved the stealth wing, which was originally tested at Area 51, they could also have moved the saucers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's in a way sad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somehow I like thinking that it's right here next to me.
unidentified		Me too.
unidentified		It's an easy drive down the road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back when Area 2000 was going on and I was trekking between Las Vegas and Perump, I had my own sighting.
		It's the only one I've ever had in my life.
		My wife had it with me.
		You may have heard the story, George.
		It was a large triangular craft that did not fly, but floated above me.
		I was actually, I was almost home, about a mile from home, dead quiet, you know, out here in the country in front.
		My wife turned around and said, what the hell is that?
		I stopped the car, turned off the ignition.
		We both got out, and we looked, and coming up from behind us, and it was almost a full moon, here's this gigantic triangular craft.
		I'd guessed 150 feet from one point of the triangle to the other, jet black against the moon and the light, the back lighting, a strobing red light in front, two white lights on the back ends of the triangle.
		It didn't fly, George.
		It wasn't flying.
		Flight takes speed, you know, for aerodynamic lift.
		This thing floated above us just silently, about 150 feet.
		And, George, we stood there and we watched it float out across the Prump Valley.
		And, you know, the hairs on the back of my neck were standing up.
		It's the only setting I've had.
		Then, the next week, some lady sent me a newspaper clipping from the Prump paper saying that a number of people had seen this craft, but that Nellis Air Force Base said, well, there was a secret mission which did overfly the Brump Valley.
		This was in the paper.
		And that it was a C-130 aircraft.
		What an insult.
		I've flown in C-130s.
		They're noisy as hell, George.
		It would have rattled my teeth at 150 feet.
		This was no C-130, and that story was an insult.
unidentified		Well, I've heard similar stories about nearly identical craft from all over the world.
		Belgians were seeing that.
		Russians have seen that triangular craft.
		The Hudson Valley and New York area has seen that triangular craft.
		I was in Alabama a year and a half ago.
		I have witnesses on videotape who have described the same thing floating along, completely silent, huge craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, same thing has been seen all over the world.
		In fact, I get a lot of reports from out in your area, Art, not only about UFO sightings, but about these mystery booms that feels like underground tremors.
		Recently did a report about residents in St. George, Utah.
		That area had been feeling these underground tremors.
		It was cracking the windows in their homes, cracking their walls.
		They thought someone was doing underground blasting.
		As it turns out, we did some analysis of the recordings that these people had done of the sound, and it's of sonic origin.
		So after we did the reports about these sonic tremors being caused in St. George, I started getting calls about the same thing in the Perump Valley area.
		I don't know what they're flying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, listen, you're dead right.
		Something's going on.
		I've got a friend across town, ham radio operator.
		I'm one, so he's a friend of mine.
		His name is Jerry, and that's all I'll give, not his last name.
		But everything was fine until he built a porch.
		He built a porch, George, and in doing so had to sink, you know, I'm not a carpenter, but big things into the ground to support the porch.
		And he began to get a hum at night that was vibrating his entire house that was so damn loud that he couldn't sleep.
		He had the power company out there.
		He had everybody he could think of out there.
		He had to end up tearing down the porch because this was somehow translating this hum into the rest of the house.
		Have you heard of that kind of thing?
unidentified		I sure have.
		I think the most famous one is in the Taos, New Mexico region.
		It's been going on for a couple of years.
		Some residents can't hear it, and they think the other ones who are hearing it are crazy, but it's been detected using scientific equipment, and the military, of course, denies having any knowledge of what's causing it, but it keeps going on, and it drives people crazy.
		The same thing was occurring at the same time in the southern Utah area when I went up there to do these recent reports about the mystery booms.
		Some people were not hearing the booms, but they were hearing this underground hum, and it kept them awake at night.
		They couldn't sleep.
		And your area is the third one I've been hearing it about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, what do you think?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something, the hum, something underground, obviously?
unidentified		I'm not sure as what it sounds like, but what?
		What would do it that could travel that far underground?
		Again, the military denies any knowledge.
		There have been some congressional inquiries in New Mexico that have gone absolutely nowhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know that undersea sounds of particularly very low sounds whales make, they travel, they say, even thousands of miles.
		But I wasn't sure the same was true of the ground.
		Does the ground conduct sound the way water does?
unidentified		You've got me, Art.
unidentified		Scientifically, I'm not all that great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something's going on.
		All right, hold on just a moment.
		George Knapp is my guest.
		We're going to get phone lines open here in just a moment, and I will give you a rendition of the numbers.
		If you are health conscious, you should know about antioxidants.
		If you don't, then listen to me.
		Vitamin C is an antioxidant.
		UCLA scientists say that vitamin C can help avoid cancer, strokes, heart attacks, increase your life expectancy, an average of, say, five years.
		And there are some new antioxidants on the market right now that are 20 times the power of vitamin C. So if that's true of vitamin C, the antioxidant value can do that.
		Imagine what, yes, it's a silly name.
		Pycnogenols.
		That's 1-800-877-9799.
		Now be sure and ask for the tape on currency devaluation.
		1-800-877-9799.
		Once again, George Knapp.
		George, this is an intriguing question.
		Let's see what you do with it.
		UFOs, all sorts of phenomenon that have been going on for a long time now.
		Do you think if we're ever to get to an ultimate answer, it will be through science or, more likely, through some sort of intuitive or political,
		in other words, whether there will be a political revelation, whether science will prove the existence of them, or whether these people who call themselves psychics and sensitives and remote viewers and that group will be the final answer.
unidentified		Well, I withhold judgment on the remote viewing and psychic approach to it.
		There's some intriguing research going on in that area, but I'm not an expert.
		I think probably the answer would have to come through science.
		UFOs are not the property of any government, and even though governments can try to institute cover-ups, the UFOs have for 45 years defied that.
		They fly in the skies, and there's nothing we can do about it.
		Obviously, they don't seem to be, they don't care one way or another whether we know about them or not.
		I mean, although there has been an increasing activity, they haven't landed on the White House lawn.
		I see no indication that the government is going to come clean on it.
		Perhaps shows like yours and perhaps some of the things that I've done are doing the government's work for it, in essence, informing the public, because they can't.
		I think the government has painted itself into a corner and it really doesn't know how to get out of it.
		I've also been told by congressional investigators that when and if this all comes spilling out, that people are going to go to jail because obviously a lot of money has been spent perpetuating the cover-up.
		Probably a lot of money has been taken from legitimate black budget projects and put into this stuff.
		So it's entirely likely that maybe the cover-up is perpetuated because people are covering their butts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One place it hasn't been working so well that is a cover-up is Mexico.
		I've had a lot of guests on the sightings in Mexico.
		George, hundreds of thousands of people have been seeing serious UFOs.
		And I've got some of the photographs in Mexico.
		Are you aware of that story?
unidentified		Oh, I am.
		It's incredible.
		The footage that keeps coming out of Mexico is incredible.
		And it wasn't just a one-time event.
		It keeps going on and on and on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
unidentified		But it gets absolutely no serious coverage here.
		It's as if it's not really happening.
		Why that is, I don't know, but it's going to take Dan Rather, Brokal Jennings.
		When the Mexico sighting story hits one of the national newscasts or hits the front page of the New York Times, which probably seems unlikely, that's when people are going to pay attention to it.
		Why that hasn't happened, I don't know, because, as you mentioned, it keeps happening on a frequent basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That many people to see it.
		We'll be right back.
		George Knapp is my guest.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		Dreamland.
		Issues and ideals.
		Conversation and controversy.
		You have it all on Talk 102.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		UFOs takes.
		He nevertheless continues, as do we.
		If you have questions and would like to ask George a question, he's been into this investigation now for years.
		Here are the phone numbers, and we're going to open the lines.
		If you have never called the program at all, first-time callers can reach us at Area Code 702-727-122.
		702-727-1222.
		The wildcard lines, Area Code 702-727-1295.
		Or 1295.
		Toll free west of the Rockies.
		It's 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies, anywhere out east of the Rockies, it's 1-800-825-5033.
		Again, 1-800-825-5033 east of the Rockies.
		George, are you there?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's go to the phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you say?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here we go.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Knapp.
		Good evening.
		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Knapp.
		Hi.
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Provo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Provo, Utah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was interested when your guest mentioned there was some things going on down in St. George.
		I have family down there, and I hadn't heard of anything.
		Is this the first time anything has been going on down there in St. George?
		No, it's been going on for approximately the last eight months or so.
		Sometimes the events happen three, four, five times a day.
		It's not every day, but it will start.
		Whoever is doing it doesn't work weekends.
		It's strictly a Monday through Friday phenomenon.
		I think it's within about a 40-mile radius around the Damaron Valley is what's been described to me.
		Okay.
		One other question.
		I need to know the number of any local UFO groups around here.
		Do you have that kind of information?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, let's translate that a little bit.
		George, if you saw something and you wanted to report it, who would you call?
unidentified		Well, I mean, they have the National UFO hotline.
		I think it's based in Seattle.
		I don't have the number at my fingertips, but that gets the information to some folks who can run with it and do something.
		It seems like a lot of people who get UFO information call me or folks like Linda Howe.
		I'd certainly like to hear any kind of reports that people have.
		Linda is always interested in hearing that information, and the folks with MUFON and that national UFO hotline are all good leads.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you may want to be careful here, but is there a number or a way to contact you?
unidentified		Oh, they're welcome to call me at the station or write to me at the station.
unidentified		If everyone wants to get a pencil ready, I'll give you the number there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's hold off then.
		Everybody, go get your pencil ready, and we'll do that in a moment.
		East of the Rockies, you're on with George Schnapp.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		Yeah, this is Mark Tonsville, Illinois, on satellite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, George, what do you think about Richard Hoagland's work, and where do you think it's going to go?
		And, you know, he came out with that four-hour tape at that conference in Ohio, and it seemed like it didn't go anywhere.
		And that was one hell of a tape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure was, and it was one hell of an address in Ohio, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Familiar with Richard Hoagland's work at all, George?
unidentified		I sure am.
		In fact, I was at a conference in Los Angeles yesterday at which Mr. Hoagland was speaking, and some of the stuff that he's doing right now about the Clementine mission to take photos of the moon is absolutely amazing.
		Someone has leaked some of those photos to Hoagland, which indicate clear artificial structures on the moon.
		Where it's going to go, I don't know.
		I think the work that he's done about Mars is very important.
		It's very dramatic.
		And although it caused a tidal wave in UFO circles, it doesn't seem to have gone too much further out of that.
		It's a similar story with our Russian material.
		You know, documented proof from a world power, a world government saying that UFOs are real and they're here and they're not ours and they're not the Russians.
		And it doesn't seem to make much of an impact outside this little universe of ufology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is true.
		Richard did a story.
		As you know, he thinks there are some very tall, crystalline-like structures on the moon.
		And he did a story about the disappearance of one of our satellites.
		And he believes that it collided as it was coming down with one of these structures.
		And his technical explanation of the way the signal disappeared almost demanded that what he suggested occurred, the way the signal disappeared.
		Have you heard him describe that?
unidentified		I have not.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's quite remarkable.
		In other words, when a spacecraft turns away or the antenna is somehow oriented in a different direction suddenly, the signal, or if it were to explode, the signal would disappear in certain milliseconds.
		They'd actually be able to hear it occurring.
		But the way it apparently collided with this thing, the signal was just instantly gone, as though the antenna suddenly was whipped around, and I'm sure that it was.
		It was a very, very interesting story.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Knapp.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with George Knapp.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		Well, we're missing them.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		Fresno, California.
		Okay.
		My name is Wilma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, go ahead.
unidentified		And in 1970, February 7th, we were going to Nevada to celebrate our anniversary.
		And on the way, out in the desert, nothing was ever, it wasn't built up then.
		And on the way, it was on the left-hand side.
		It was 2 o'clock in the morning.
		I told my husband, what in the devil is the water tower doing out here?
		There's nothing around.
		It was shaped like a bullet, full legs, four legs.
		And we come back two days later, it wasn't there.
		And then about five years ago, here my son called me out, Mom, come look.
		And going over with what I seen, what you've seen, Art.
		That big triangular.
		No sound, no nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, where.
unidentified		No slow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, where are you located again?
unidentified		Fresno, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fresno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this was actually over Fresno?
unidentified		It was over our house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Over your house.
unidentified		And I didn't cut.
		I told my son, I says, I'm not going to call the police.
		What for?
		And he's seen a light.
		He said it was on top of the, I live near Christmas Tree Lane.
		And he said he's seen a light on top of the cedar trees.
		And then the light took off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, it's a good question.
		George, how many people who see things like this do you think report them?
		Percentage-wise, I wonder how many actually get reported to any agency?
unidentified		I have statistics on that.
		You know, it's an odd dichotomy.
		90% of UFO sightings are misidentifications of explainable phenomena, but it's also true that 9 out of 10 sightings aren't reported at all.
		And it's easy to understand why.
		If you call the police in almost any town, and I'm a big fan of police, but if you call the police, they'll keep you on the line long enough to find out if you're crazy.
		But they don't take the report seriously.
		The same is true of the military.
		If you call a base like Nellis, they say, we're not interested.
		They'll even give out a UFO hotline number to send people down the road.
		It's interesting that Nellis here in Nevada has never had a UFO sighting, according to a spokesperson that I interviewed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Which would make it probably the only military base in the country that hasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that interesting?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Knapp.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Ed in Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, Ed?
unidentified		Beg pardon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Albuquerque, all right.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to ask him about Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		You made a comment about the stealth fighter.
		Is Area 51 out by Tonopaw, or is that in some other area?
		Because the stealth were tested at Tonopaw.
		Well, the stealth were transferred to Tonopaw when they became operational.
		Tonopaw is on the other side of the Nevada test site range.
		That's correct.
		In other words, they started out in Area 51.
		Initial testing was conducted at Area 51 and perhaps other locations as well in Nevada, but once it became an operational fighter wing, they were based at Tonopaw.
		No, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were an operational fighter wing.
unidentified		I know that for a fact.
		They were still being tested.
		A6s were conveying them and everything.
		Well, I have to disagree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, they were an operational fighter wing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall reading that in the newspaper.
unidentified		Well, this is before, this was when they still said they didn't even exist at Tonopa.
		Well, that's probably, it could be.
		I was observing them when they didn't exist.
		But I was just wondering where Area 51 was.
		It's on the other side of the test site range.
		It's east of Tonopa.
		It's east of Tonopa.
		As far north as Tonopa?
		I believe so.
		It's almost a direct line across Tonopa.
		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with George Knapp.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off.
unidentified		I sure did.
unidentified		This is Wendy from Vancouver, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Wendy.
unidentified		And I had a question for your guest.
		I was wondering if he could tell me when he thinks the government is going to acknowledge the existence of UFOs.
		I don't think that they'll ever do it.
		I think the only way that they would do it is if they were forced by some event, an event from whatever the intelligence is that's behind the UFO phenomenon or indisputable proof that's garnered by people in the private sector.
		Because as we mentioned, I think they've done a lot of sneaky stuff that would get them in a lot of trouble.
		I think it's also possible that maybe they have a reason for not coming clean with us.
		Maybe there really is some dark side to this.
		Maybe we really would panic in the streets if the whole truth came out.
		And it may also be that the government, although they have more information than us, they don't have the complete picture themselves.
		It seems to me, especially within the last 10 years, like we've almost been in a constant barrage of UFO movies, UFO sightings, reportings.
		It seems to me like it's almost a desensitizing process.
		So that was my question.
		Well, I'd agree with you, and Art and I discussed it a little bit earlier, that whether or not there really is a program like that, it sure seems like it.
		And you know, the more research I've done into this, the more sympathetic I become to the government's position.
		I mean, I don't appreciate some of the tactics that they've used over the years, but it could very well be they're in possession of some really sensitive information about a phenomenon that really would disrupt society, that would really shake us right to our bones, our roots or whatever, and they don't know what to do with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would think this would be a matter of gigantic international contention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if there are weapons possibilities in the technology, and you have to imagine there would be, there would be a big race between the U.S. and any other power to get hold of and develop that technology.
unidentified		Well, I agree completely.
		In fact, the Russian sources that we interviewed, the Colonel Sokolov, who was the head of this 10-year nationwide UFO study by the Russian military, told us specifically that they were studying UFOs not to solve some cosmic mystery, but for practical reasons.
		They knew that UFOs could do things that our planes could not do, maneuver, appear on radar, disappear.
		And if they could solve that technology by studying them, that they would basically get a jump on us in stealth technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, gee, maybe then our government meant by UFOs are no threat to national security, that they are no threat to national security as long as we have the technology.
unidentified		Well, I agree completely with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, George.
		We'll be right back.
		George Knapp is my guest.
		Again, the East of the Rockies line is 1-800.
		George, are you there?
		Yes.
		All right.
		As much as we can, let's keep answering these.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with George Knapp.
		Good evening.
		Hello there.
unidentified		Having trouble with East of the Rockies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are?
unidentified		Well, we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently so.
		Are you there?
		Well, I guess not.
		Let's try it over here.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Oh, oh, oh, George, we're not having trouble.
		This is my fault.
		It's my fault.
		Is there anybody on the West of the Rockies line?
unidentified		Hello?
		Hi, yes.
		Hi, Art and George.
		I was wondering, have you ever made a connection between UFO sightings and nature occurrences that have been happening lately, like large hail falling and floods and psychic predictions that they say that there are going to be a lot of changes in the United States and around the world?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm really glad you asked.
		George, I know everybody always talks about it, does nothing about it, but the weather this year is arguably stranger than it ever has been.
		Giant reports of hail everywhere, high winds.
		We've had them here in the desert.
		We get high winds, but I mean, it's been a crazy year.
unidentified		That's true.
		I don't know that we can tie it into the UFO phenomenon, though.
		I mean, some people have tried.
		I just haven't seen any convincing evidence.
		There are individual cases of where UFOs have been sighted in areas where earthquakes have occurred and strange weather occurrences have been reported, but a direct connection I haven't seen.
		I know that it sure does seem weird since I haven't been following weather patterns and don't really have data on the frequency of earthquakes and volcanoes dating back over a number of years.
		I don't know if it's any worse than normal or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air with Georgia now.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		I have a question for Georgian.
		And I'd like to just tell Ark that I did see also when I lived in Tonopah.
		I lived.
		Sorry, I lived there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, turn your radio off, sir.
unidentified		Turn your radio down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, turn it off.
		Ah.
		Otherwise, it'll confuse you.
unidentified		Mr. Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Oh, good to talk to you, sir.
		I saw the same thing that you saw over by Peru, only I saw it right above Tonopa when I lived there.
		It was a little bit different than what you described, though.
		It was a big triangular.
		It was at night and there was no moon.
		It was a big triangular shape flying right over town, going north.
		I was on the north side of town going into town at the time.
		And it had a bunch of red and white lights on it.
		I don't know how many, but it was triangular shape.
		And it seemed to be flanked by a couple of what I was thinking were escort planes.
		And I don't know why, but I was thinking T-38s or trainers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's hold it right there.
		We don't have a lot of time.
		George, many times, UFOs, crop circles, all the rest of this sort of thing seem to be accompanied by reports of U.S. aircraft, fighter aircraft, Or helicopters.
unidentified		Well, that's true.
		It's not only in the U.S., but as Linda mentioned earlier, it happened in Britain as well.
		Almost as if our military is monitoring whatever is going on.
		No question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would imply, though, not just a national effort, but a full international effort.
unidentified		True.
		And it's not necessarily, as I just stated, it's not necessarily that the U.S. is monitoring it.
		I mean, it could be in some of these cases that it is an advanced weapon system that we just haven't heard about yet that they're flying along with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had to assign probabilities, do you think we're being visited?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it more likely we're being visited, George, or just observing our own nation's best efforts?
unidentified		I think a large number of UFO reports are advanced weapon systems.
		However, there is nothing officially on the books about any gigantic flying triangle, and I've asked congressional people about that directly.
		If there is, they don't know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll hold it right there, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		That I was at, besides the judge and his entourage, to collect $9.25.
		A two-year trespass case over $9.25 over a runaway cow.
		Now, Mr. Dwyer writes, after this example, people like Dick Bass describe their aches and pains in dealing with the federal government.
		It's wrong to mash their grievances in with the militia people and their talk of civil war.
		Those who want smaller government don't have to apologize.
		It is scandal to suggest otherwise.

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