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June 9, 1995 - Art Bell

02:53:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Oklahoma City Bombings

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	Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995 on Art Bell.
	Music Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, or good morning, and welcome to another edition of Coast to Coast AM, live talk radio throughout the nighttime.
	I said live, because we're here right now, while others recycle, regurgitate, repeat, Relentlessly, we are here live once again proving why talk radio is much better live than repeated.
	Now, as you all know, for the last few days, my blood pressure has been high.
	We've been following a story in Oklahoma City very closely.
	Which was broken by Channel 4, KFOR Television in Oklahoma City.
	And my assumption must be this morning that some of you don't know what we're talking about.
	And so I'm briefly going to take you through the chronology.
	And then I've got a guest.
	A very unusual, a very interesting guest.
	It began this way with a couple of people who sent me faxes, shocking faxes.
	And I'm going to read you the content of one.
	Dear Art, a lead story on Oklahoma City's KFOR News Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock, this is now a couple days ago, was a report revealing the identity of John Doe No.
	2.
	Reporter Gina Davis has worked on this story since one week after the tragedy.
	Davis presented witnesses who wished to remain shadowed, voices disguised, that sort of thing.
	Who saw McVeigh and John Doe No.
	2 several days before the attack.
	One witness claims the pair drank beer at her bar in Northwest Oklahoma City.
	She says John Doe No.
	2 spoke with an Iranian-Iraqi accent.
	They spoke an Arab language of some sort to each other.
	Further research by Channel 4 identified John Doe No.
	2 through surveillance photos obtained by local businesses near Northwest Kent and Penn About two and a half blocks from the AP where the AP Murrow building used to be.
	The report showed some three shots of John Doe No.
	2, but scrambled his face as he has not yet been arrested or charged.
	Research done by KFOR has revealed John Doe No.
	2's name and nationality, but they didn't release it at the FBI's request.
	The report did say the man was an Iraqi national who served in the Iraqi military during the Gulf War desert storm under Saddam Hussein.
	The report also said the man is and has been under FBI surveillance, and that he has a tattoo on his left arm.
	Thought you'd like to know.
	Well, that set off, as you might imagine, a firestorm of interest in the story on this program, certainly.
	I got another fact saying essentially the same thing.
	Then we began trying to do what you do, verify the story.
	Through our program, excuse me, News Director at WKY, our affiliate WKY in Oklahoma City, we confirmed the essential details of the story.
	That it was essentially as we had heard that it was reported.
	Then began a long questioning of why in God's name this story was not picked up by the Parent Network, by other networks and news outlets around the country, and for two days we've been wallowing in that great mystery.
	Well, not that it's all going to be solved, but hang on, we've got a guest coming.
	A little more chronology.
	Meantime, my network, Hard At Work, from Oregon, also contacted the television station, spoke to several people at KFOR, and all of them, to the person, said, no.
	Jaina will not, under any circumstances, do an interview.
	At this point, what is a mother to do?
	Well, a mother begins imagining all kinds of wild things, like it might be an FBI plant story.
	It might.
	It still might.
	I don't know.
	Then, uh, tonight comes a fax.
	The following.
	According to KFOR Channel 4 TV in Oklahoma City, they have identified, uh, John, uh, excuse me.
	I'm reading another copy of one of the original faxes I got.
	This is the one that just came in.
	It's entitled More on John Doe Number Two.
	As a result of Wednesday's broadcast, a new witness has now come forward to KFOR.
	This witness places John Doe Number Two four blocks from the bomb site seconds after the blast speeding away in the brown pickup truck.
	The witness said she ran from her office after hearing the blast And was almost run down by the brown Chevy pickup.
	She got a real clear view of the driver John Doe number two.
	She describes his look as very angry and full of hate.
	After she learned of the bombing she felt this man was involved.
	This witness says she recognized the man in the KFOR report even though his identity was hidden by computer graphics.
	Since Wednesday She has been with KFOR and has identified the pictures of John Doe No.
	2 that KFOR has.
	The witness also said she had been interviewed by the FBI the day of the bombing.
	But when asked if she saw a tattoo on the upper left arm, she told the FBI, no.
	KFOR then showed some full body pictures their reporter had taken of John Doe No. 2.
	In one of them, he is wearing a tank top.
	And when they zoomed into his upper left arm, you can clearly see the tattoo.
	That's from Craig in Lawton, Oklahoma.
	So, there is everything as I had it up until a little before broadcast time.
	And I've got, you know, a million other faxes about this.
	A lot of other networks are now aware of it.
	CNN was aware of the story, waiting for confirmation.
	AP Wire Service and others waiting for confirmation.
	ABC New York, not aware, but looking into it.
	Local NBC affiliate was interested in another town, but they also are investigating, and on and on and on.
	So, we seem to be the driving force behind this story now.
	Going beyond KFOR.
	Others, I understand, have touched on it as well, including Chuck Carter, now, and Lopate and some others.
	So, the story is now beginning to break out of the first stages.
	There you've got a kind of a chronology.
	And I thought, oh boy, this sounds like Really sounds like a plan.
	I mean, what television station would not want their story told?
	It's an important story!
	Very important!
	A half hour before air time, I got a call from somebody who will, for our purposes, we will call Mike.
	Not his real name, but we'll call him Mike.
	He is a private investigator Uh, he says, a contract employee of Channel 4 Television KFOR.
	And he's here to talk to us about all of this this morning.
	So, uh, let me take a brief break.
	And when we come back, the private investigator doing the work that no doubt in part, or maybe even in a large part, along with Jayna Davis, resulted in the story that now is beginning to catch fire.
	In a moment, Mike.
	Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995 on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Art Bell.
	All right, now let me preface what you're about to hear only with one further item, and that is that Mike has contacted me.
	Now, I have no way of verifying that Mike is who he says he is.
	I will give you my personal assessment, having spoken to him, that I believe that he is.
	So, why don't you decide for yourself.
	Here we go.
	Mike, are you able to hear me?
	Yes, sir.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Mike.
	All right, have I, roughly, first of all, represented you properly as a contract employee of Channel 4 television, KFOR, a private investigator?
	I am a private investigator, correct.
	I am a subcontractor, not an employee.
	A subcontractor, all right.
	That would essentially be a contract employee.
	Correct.
	All right, Mike.
	Spill your guts!
	Look, first let me ask you, straight out, Is this an FBI plant story?
	Absolutely not, Art.
	Let me just clear the air how it could not be.
	Gina Davis and myself have been starting this investigation back shortly thereafter the bombing.
	Basically, after we gathered information, our primary surveillance tape, which we took, we went to the FBI.
	The FBI debriefed us and questioned us for about four and a half hours.
	We've turned everything over at that time, videotapes, names, addresses, everything.
	Can you tell us what, in essence, was on the tape?
	Now, remember, the larger audience in the nation has not seen the KFOR report, so what did you have that you turned over?
	Well, let me give you a little bit of history.
	First of all, once the bombing hit, it's our backyard.
	I live in Oklahoma City, as do many, many other people.
	There were people Some credible, some not credible, that were going to various news stations.
	We were contacted by some witnesses that had been contacted already and questioned by the FBI.
	They gave the FBI their information.
	It went at that.
	Some of the witnesses we found to be very credible, we investigated.
	We investigated some that were not credible.
	But the ones we found credible that we could at least second source everything, we continued to investigate.
	This led us to a group of individuals One individual in particular.
	It got narrowed down to at least one individual.
	Which we started doing surveillance.
	We started taking videotapes.
	We started to see this gentleman's daily activities.
	Or lack of daily activities.
	This was the person you were suspecting of being John Doe the number two?
	Correct.
	Alright.
	Correct.
	Alright, so you were actually... You were on the guy.
	You were taking videotapes.
	You were sitting somewhere and watching him.
	That sort of thing.
	Yes, sir.
	We were taking surveillance tape of his daily activities.
	What he did, who he associated with, things of that nature.
	Okay.
	Once we, and we kind of stumbled onto him in a kind of ironic way, but anyway, once we took the videotapes of this gentleman, we were looking at them, and Jaina Davis and myself were looking at the videotapes, and we kind of got a chill because of the look.
	Our possible John Doe number two has very striking features.
	Very striking features.
	And we thought, well, we have to go on with this.
	We're trying to help in any way we can, help solve this crime, if we can.
	If not, we'd like to be told we're wasting our time and get on down the road, because we both have other things to do if that not be the case.
	Oh, Mike, do these striking features resemble the FBI's composite?
	Yes, sir, they did.
	They did?
	Okay, okay.
	Especially from the nose, eyes, the brow area, and the forehead and the hair.
	Uh, space structure in general.
	It matched.
	Gotcha.
	Okay, uh, we turned him over to the FBI.
	Uh, my initial observation, the FBI came to us.
	Uh, we went to them, they came to us, interviewed us.
	When I initially put, first put the first video, uh, surveillance tape, we were interviewed by two agents.
	And both agents took double tapes and asked me to pause the videotape.
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, they questioned us in length and in depth for four and a half hours.
	Uh, what we knew of them, You know, why our witnesses, what have you.
	We've turned everything over to them.
	We have since hence continued to do surveillance on number two as of today.
	Or number two lookalike, I should say.
	Number two lookalike.
	As of today.
	We have continued to get surveillance tape.
	We have continued to turn everything over to the FBI.
	We're in continual contact with them.
	Of course, by nature of their job, they don't tell us anything.
	We don't expect them to, to be honest with you.
	We're here to help them if we can.
	I'm sure that would be true, yes.
	I'd like to correct a couple little things you mentioned in your brief little summary here at the beginning.
	Okay.
	During that summary, you said surveillance taken by, I'm sorry, surveillance taken by neighboring businesses off 10th and Pennsylvania.
	Yeah, that's what the facts said.
	That's incorrect.
	None of the video tape do we have was taken from any other video camera other than our own, including the FBI.
	None of them was taken from FBI surveillance tape.
	Okay, that includes everything in your report with Jayna, right?
	Correct.
	What's going on with KFOR?
	Correct.
	Alright.
	Second thing I'd like to correct with you is you'd mentioned an individual young lady that went on camera in disguise where she had seen McVeigh and our John Doe number look alike in a bar drinking beer.
	Correct.
	You were misinformed when they told you that McVeigh and this John Doe No.
	2 lookalike were observed speaking a foreign language together.
	That is not correct.
	Okay.
	The correct answer to that would be this John Doe No.
	2 lookalike asked the waitress a question of whether she was married.
	She couldn't understand what he said.
	She asked him to repeat it.
	He repeated it.
	He spoke with very broken English.
	Broken English?
	Right.
	She was from Southern California.
	She knows Hispanic.
	This gentleman kind of looks Hispanic.
	It was not Hispanic.
	And during the interview, she stated it was the same as she heard during news reports from the Gulf War.
	Okay.
	Okay, so that's how they came up with the preliminary thought that this might be an Iraqi or an Iranian or Middle Eastern type.
	No, actually it's not.
	Within minutes after the bombing, One of my investigators taped all the police radio traffic on the scanners.
	Within minutes after the bombing, and that was reported on Channel 4 also, they were looking for a brown Chevy pickup truck, tinted windows, bug shield.
	Yes.
	With at least two Middle Eastern looking males.
	Yes, sir.
	I recall that report distinctly.
	Okay, that was come directly from the FBI.
	We taped it.
	We have where police officers locally are asking Who, you know, do we know if this is good information?
	And it's right there on the report from a law enforcement official stating it was authorized by the FBI.
	Within a few hours after that, the APB out for the Middle Eastern Connection kind of died off.
	You know, inside law enforcement sources say the FBI, you know, told them specifically, pull the APB from Middle Eastern men off.
	Quit giving it away.
	Okay, quit asking for them.
	Alright, let me stop you there.
	I remember a report, maybe this is further down the line, that two Pakistanis, I believe it was Pakistanis, were detained and questioned by the FBI for a period of time and then let go.
	Now, do you recall that?
	I don't... I recall... I think it was down in Texas somewhere.
	They got him or something.
	The only one I do recall of Middle Eastern is here in Oklahoma City.
	In downtown Oklahoma City, they have a hotel.
	A gentleman from Texas was questioned, detained, then released by the FBI.
	They're around here.
	It was kind of a... Went crazy for a little bit because anybody that had dark skin and drove a brown... Could have been a little car was getting pulled over and questioned.
	Public hysteria.
	Right, I'm sure.
	Okay, um...
	How long, so this investigation by yourself and Jayna, did it begin roughly a week after the bombing or just right very shortly after the bombing?
	Is that when it all began, when you began work?
	It began within about, I would guess, probably within three days after the bombing.
	Three days?
	I would say roughly within three days.
	Alright, so you worked on this story from that period until when it aired, what was it, Wednesday?
	No, sir.
	We've worked on it continually through today, but it did not first air Wednesday.
	It aired some time back.
	It's been a continuing series of updates as far as the programs and the stories.
	Well, there must have been something about the story on Wednesday that lit everybody's fire.
	Maybe it was a culmination, or maybe it just built to some sort of crescendo or something, but it was as though KFOR broke it just the other day.
	Well, yes, and I'll tell you where that came from.
	I do not.
	I'm not employed by KO4.
	I'm not their employee.
	I'm speaking as their subcontractor, as myself, as the investigator.
	The story Wednesday broke when we've accumulated all this information.
	We have had multiple eyewitnesses, and my job as an investigator, I was trying to discredit them.
	I was trying to make sure it was a non-prejudiced Third party objective to get down to the truth.
	To be honest with you, if this isn't real, myself, nor Jane and Davis, nor any of the news channel would want anything to do with this.
	It's not a racial thing.
	It's a thing about the truth.
	I'm with you.
	That's what I want is the truth.
	Yeah.
	It's all for the truth, basically.
	So we had all this information.
	We had multiple eyewitnesses that have been through lineups and you're talking.
	I did the lineups myself.
	You're talking.
	pictures of at least 45 to 50 pictures, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, of
	various individuals.
	These pictures on their own, non-prejudiced, on camera, picked out our John Doe number
	two look-a-like on each occasion.
	And without hesitation.
	Out of how big a lineup?
	I would say a variation of up to 20 different people.
	All right, well that's pretty impressive.
	You're talking, somebody had made a comment on another talk show that some people think
	people of certain races all look the same.
	That is incorrect.
	We put faces, I even tried to trick some of them saying, you sure it's not this guy?
	You sure it's not this man?
	And they would always stick to their story.
	We found it credible, we could second source things.
	We basically, Gina did her package, took it where she needed to take it.
	All right, Mike, I want you to hold your story right there for us.
	We've got to take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
	You won't hear anything for a few minutes.
	Don't let it worry you.
	We're going to break here at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is somebody who calls himself Mike, a private investigator who worked with and continues to work with Janet Davis.
	The reporter who broke this incredible story from Oklahoma City will be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an ongoing presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
	The Coast to Coast AM presentation.
	Good morning from the high desert.
	My guest calls himself Mike for obvious reasons.
	We're not going to get his real name.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	Good morning from the high desert.
	My guest calls himself Mike for obvious reasons.
	We're not going to get his real name. I don't expect it.
	He is a private investigator who has been working with Janet Davis.
	He is a subcontract employee of Channel 4 Television KFOR, Oklahoma City.
	In other words, he's not really their employee, but is a private investigator who's been working on this case since within a few days of the explosion.
	We're getting the story now.
	Mikey, are you there?
	Yes, sir.
	I'm here.
	Good.
	All right.
	Now, back to it.
	Here you are.
	You've got all of this material, videotape, all the rest of it, witnesses who have identified John Doe No.
	2, and then what?
	What do you do?
	Basically, Gina did her... We're getting a little feedback here.
	Gina did her package together, gave it over to who she had to give it to.
	Right.
	I'll tell you what.
	If you can, get real good and close to the phone and speak up good and loud.
	Okay, I'm right in it right now.
	Alright, that'll help a lot.
	Wonderful.
	Basically, Jayna Davis did her package, put everything together.
	We both together, her and I, checked and double-checked and sourced and resourced and banged our heads together, basically trying to go what to do.
	You know, people of power at her news channel decided, well, here's what'll happen.
	Let's go ahead and contact the FBI, which management at the news channel contacted the FBI, told them they were going to run with the story.
	And wanted them, you know, gave them time and let them know we're not out to hurt any investigation.
	It's just time for the truth to come out.
	Did they say, did they say basically, look, we're running with the story whether you guys think it's okay or not?
	Absolutely not.
	Absolutely not.
	What was said, and I was privy and I was in with the conversation, it was put like this.
	It was put, we're going to run the story unless you all give us reason why not to, or, you know, we don't want to impede your investigation.
	We want to help out on the situation.
	What do you want us to do?
	They said they would get back.
	Within probably 30 minutes of that conversation, they had no problem with us running the story.
	They did not tell us we were, you know, ludicrous, crazy, wrong.
	They said we, you know, basically gave the blessing to run the story.
	The story was ran that night.
	That was Wednesday night.
	That's when everything started breaking on the story.
	Alright, before we move on, let me ask you this.
	Why are you talking to me tonight?
	In other words, how is it you are allowed... Well, even better yet, let's go back a little further.
	Why is Jayna Davis not allowed, either not allowed to, or is refusing to do any interviews with anybody?
	I don't think it's a matter of refusing to or not being allowed to.
	I think it's a matter... We live here in this town.
	We want this to go.
	We want it to go right.
	The reason I'm calling you is I wanted to clear some things up.
	I have heard some comments made on your show last night, I believe.
	I have a list of the people that I'm aware of.
	I guess there were some questions on why isn't it going public?
	Why isn't it going national?
	It is going public.
	It is going national.
	Just for instance, WNBC, the NBC... Okay, but Mike, before we go on again, you haven't really exactly answered my question.
	The question is kind of, why is Jayna not doing interviews now?
	Is it just her personal choice?
	She just doesn't want to do interviews?
	In other words, it's her story, and it's your story, I guess.
	And you would think that she would want to get it out, and get it out accurately.
	And I'll accept that as your reason for being here.
	I'm just asking, why isn't Jayna?
	I do not really know.
	Jayna is still employed by the News Channel.
	The story isn't completely over.
	We're kind of looking for a finish to the story.
	We'd like a resolve.
	The big question in our mind is, once this is resolved with a yes, it could be him, or yes, we've arrested him, or yes, we've cleared him, we've questioned him, then it's over.
	It can go either way.
	We're still kind of in the hanging stages.
	As far as her personal reasons, or maybe it's the news channel reasons, I'm not in the decision-making part as to her personal or whatever.
	Alright, alright.
	I'll accept an answer.
	Now, as for your part in this, Mike, I take it that the powers that be, whoever they be, authorized you to do what you're doing right now?
	Yes, sir.
	You can take that.
	Alright, I take it.
	Alright, so the investigation is ongoing.
	This man is still in, to the best of your knowledge, and you should know, Oklahoma City.
	As of 5.30 this evening, yes sir.
	Just hours ago?
	Yes sir.
	How many witnesses altogether, Mike, have identified this man the way you suggest he's been identified, you know, in large lineups?
	I'd say at least three that have been able to come on camera or willing to come on camera.
	Unidentified, of course.
	There have been others that have not wanted to come on camera at all.
	We, of course, protect their identity.
	Something I can touch back on your other question.
	That's why I believe, too, it just popped in my head.
	Sorry to go out of order here.
	No, it's quite alright.
	I believe part of the reason this is, is the news channel is getting swamped and inundated with phone calls about this.
	Oh, bad.
	But, it's, we, both Jayna, myself, and the news channel, we have a commitment to the witnesses.
	Nobody wants to take the story without being able to confirm it themselves.
	And we will absolutely not, anyone I have, I will not reveal, neither will Jayna, to anybody other than the FBI.
	And I know there have been calls and questions on, well, we want to talk to this witness, this witness, we have guaranteed them their anonymity.
	I understand.
	Now, that I understand.
	And as I did with you with some information at the beginning of the program, I promise to keep it to myself and I shall do so.
	I'm a man of my word and I assume that Channel 4 is as well.
	Correct.
	So I can understand Why they would protect these witnesses.
	Now, you, Mike, have had a chance to really talk to these witnesses, probably the way almost nobody else except perhaps the FBI has, I guess.
	That's correct.
	How credible are they, Mike?
	I tell you, in my personal opinion, they're very credible.
	In my professional opinion, they're excellent witnesses.
	Um, just for instance, the young lady that was on the, I'm sure you haven't seen it, but the young lady that came on tonight's show at 10 o'clock show after the NBA playoff here, um, she came to the news channel, she saw it.
	Uh, if you saw the picture of the John NoNumberTwo lookalike, you would understand how she picked him out, even though his face was mosaicked out.
	Okay, so you're verifying the second fact that I've got here about the lady who came to KFOR, another witness, and also has now identified... Yes, sir.
	And another witness who was also questioned by the FBI.
	All right, then.
	Several.
	It's hard to know which direction to go.
	First, I guess my first question is, the FBI seemed inclined to pick up anybody early on who, even as you pointed out, remotely drove this sort of vehicle or whatever.
	So why haven't they picked this guy up?
	Art, that's my question itself.
	I imagine in the wisdom of the FBI that they're probably doing an in-depth investigation in which they feel it, you know, safe to maybe find out who his associates might be or what have you.
	I think, you know, there's underlying factors here that you're still not made aware of and the public's still not made aware of it and won't be, that I and Gina are aware of.
	So there, you know, trust my judgment and there is reasoning.
	All right, then let me ask something and you can react to it how you wish.
	In the beginning, in the first hours after the bombing, clearly the reports were that this was a foreign connection in all likelihood.
	You know, they'd seen some foreigners and everybody, of course, immediately suspected Iraq or Iran or some country like that behind it.
	And that's what the large news organizations went with.
	Then, all of a sudden, the story took a different direction suddenly.
	And they all had, we all had, because I did some of that reporting, egg on our faces.
	And it was as though, oh boy, you know, we should be apologizing for even automatically suspecting foreign involvement like this.
	A lot of egg on a lot of faces, and the story took a whole new turn.
	Now, what you're reporting seems to point right back again to the possibility, at least, of foreign involvement.
	Could that account for The hesitation and so forth, the FBI seems to be displaying now.
	In my opinion, I'd say, my opinion is without a doubt, I mean, the gentleman that was arrested in London is an Oklahoma City native, and he was apologized.
	You know, the President apologized to him, so he's of Middle Eastern descent.
	So I would say, you know, my opinion, they're going forward cautiously, and I don't blame them for that.
	Well, yeah, I understand the political pressure, Now, what do you think, and this is just a guess, I'm sure, on your part, Mike, or maybe you know, KFR is a reputable, mainstream, Channel 4 NBC News affiliate there in the city where the bombing took place.
	Yes, sir.
	This is a big story, Mike, there's no question about it, and Channel 4 ran it, and then nobody else, nobody else picked it up, with the exception of this program early on, With questions, and to this moment, with some few exceptions, on the fringe, it still hasn't been picked up by the networks.
	Earlier in the day, when I spoke with the General Manager of Channel 4, I said, I would presume you fed the network on this, didn't you?
	And he said, well look, I just got back from a trip or something, so yes, I would certainly presume we did.
	Do you know whether they did feed the net, and can you answer why it hasn't been picked up?
	I can't answer why.
	I can list you at least nine different media agencies that have this.
	I can list nine that I'm aware of that I could tell you.
	Tell me!
	Okay, New York Times picked this up.
	AP Wire, UPI Radio Network, Dallas Morning News.
	Just tonight, WNBC, the NBC affiliate in New York City, ran the story.
	The Arizona Republic picked it up.
	Finally!
	All right, so finally it is beginning to break.
	Yes, sir.
	It sure did break slowly, Mike.
	Very, very, very interesting.
	and i won't name but several high-ranking senators on the hill have called
	alright so finally it is beginning to break yes sir it sure did break slowly uh... there
	alike uh... very uh... very very interesting and i wonder if some of the same
	forces are at work here in the media as are at work I follow you.
	suspected work working in the fbi's hesitation but the rest is man that is
	uh...
	the the media's reluctance to in effect say loops
	bombing i follow you i i i
	the with the you know i all i can say from my experience in this is
	it takes it takes a lot of nerve it it takes
	both from an individual all the way up to news channel uh... new station you know care for tdl company the mcfay
	just swept number one across the board in oklahoma in oklahoma city market
	So they're number one without a question and with definite, you know, definition and they're number one standing.
	So it took a lot of nerve and the detail that had to go into this, the second sourcing, it's remarkable.
	And the majority of the witnesses we have, both, you know, on camera and the ones that just are too scared to go even with their voices and face, you know, in disguise, a number of them have been interviewed by the FBI.
	But you have to remember, most of the interviews came within hours or within a day or so of the bombing.
	The first videotape I took of this John Doe No.
	2 lookalike wasn't until April 24th, which is five days after the bombing.
	So at that time, You know, they wouldn't have the stills and the videos we provided to produce in a photo lineup.
	Does your John Doe number two suspect know that he's under surveillance?
	I have no idea.
	I assume not.
	Does he act as though he knows?
	From the onset, he's a very suspicious individual.
	He appears to be soldier-like.
	He's very wary.
	He's very He's cautious where he goes.
	I don't... I assume he doesn't know he is under surveillance.
	We've been very careful with that.
	Well, there must be dual surveillance going on because you are surveilling as you say the FBI is.
	I assume they are, yes.
	Well, now wait a minute.
	You assume they are.
	Do you know for sure whether the FBI has this man under surveillance now?
	Art, if I knew, I wouldn't tell you, nor could I tell you, but I can tell you this.
	Everything we give, every videotape we get, it is requested from us by the FBI, and we voluntarily turn it into the FBI.
	I can assure you that we have not been told we're in the wrong.
	All the FBI can neither confirm nor deny, because it is an active investigation, and we question them no more on that.
	All right, Mike.
	Hold on just a moment.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Wow.
	Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Ark Bells Somewhere in Time.
	Oh, my God.
	Okay, Mike, we're back.
	We're back, Mike.
	Are you there?
	Hello, Mike.
	Right, right.
	I'll tell them.
	All right, apparently Mike is speaking to somebody else on the phone right now about exactly this.
	I'm here.
	Go ahead, Art.
	Okay, Mike.
	Are you there?
	I'm here.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	I take it you're getting communication from elsewhere?
	I am, sir.
	That's the story of my life, I think.
	What do they want us to know?
	Basically where we're going.
	Just something that needs to be I need to let you know, and as far as validity, as far as credibility, each photo lineup that we did with these individuals, each photo lineup was taped from the beginning, the moment we started talking to them, through the whole setup.
	So you've got videotaped even of these witnesses doing the... Yes, sir.
	Oh, that's nice.
	Yes, sir.
	And we did not talk to these witnesses off camera to ensure credibility, to ensure that The stability of the photo line-up, you say?
	Okay.
	And we taped it from the beginning to we left.
	Once they identified him, we even taped stowing the pictures, putting the pictures away, completely from beginning to out the door.
	The camera was running full-time and that is being turned over to the FBI, too.
	There's no question of a tainted witness, a possibility of a tainted witness.
	And most of ours that I probably didn't tell you, I know I told you we double-sourced it, Jane and I triple sourced it.
	You know, sometimes four and five times we would source something to make sure we're on track.
	Can you characterize for me, now obviously, I mean here you are delivering some very heavy information to the FBI.
	Even though they're pretty stoic guys, I know quite a few agents myself and they're pretty stoic, you must have been able to discern some sort of reaction from them from surprise to great interest to no interest to we'll take this information only if we have to I mean characterize for me if you would the way they communicated with you basically are any contact you might have had with the FBI when I call they're there I have no problem getting them on the phone when I leave a message or Jane leaves a message they're back with us within 15-20 minutes probably max
	They're kind to us.
	They're nice.
	Anything we have, we give to them.
	They ask if we have anything.
	We'll tell them we're going to get this.
	For instance, we were asked if we could place our John Doe No.
	2 lookalike with McVeigh at the onset, towards the beginning stages of the investigation.
	We said, well, We'll let you know as we go.
	Well, we called them up and said, we now have witnesses that can place John Doe No.
	2 lookalike with McVeigh.
	They were very interested.
	We turned it over to them.
	Now, as of today, we have a witness.
	Do these involve the people in the restaurant?
	Well, there's... In other words, it placed them together, or were there other locations?
	There's other than the restaurant.
	There's a beer drinking establishment.
	There's other businesses that they were seeing.
	Some are on camera, some are off camera for the fear.
	I've got you.
	Okay.
	Basically, we contacted them and said, not only have we placed them with McVeigh, now we have placed them with, inside, driving a brown Chevy Pickup by a credible witness that was within, as she put it, I believe four to six feet, her face to his face, as he turned a corner driving that car, John Doe number two look-a-like did.
	And remember the features of him.
	And if you saw the man, if you saw the stills, if you saw the video, his features, you would not forget.
	He's a very angry-looking man, and that is how she remembered him.
	Well, she was almost hit by him, wasn't she?
	Yes, sir, she was.
	Well, so, uh, could those reactions on his face have been fright at almost hitting her?
	Absolutely not.
	Let me tell you why, Art.
	At the time of the bombing, my own attorney, my friends, people have business downtown.
	At the time of the bombing, Time stopped downtown.
	People stopped the cars in the middle of the road with no movement.
	Everybody kind of froze and kind of panicked to get out of buildings.
	According to this eyewitness, credible, very credible eyewitness, the one that spotted him in the car, he was the only vehicle.
	What stuck out in her mind is everybody has a bewildered, scared look coming out and all vehicles stop traffic.
	Okay.
	Um, he was the only vehicle, this vehicle that he was observed driving, or she spotted him driving, she identified him driving, was the only vehicle on the road moving and was going at a high rate of speed, was not looking at Wonderman, but was looking at her and made eye contact and kept eye contact as he came around the corner.
	Wow.
	And was going at a high rate of speed.
	And according to her testimony, which was The whole interview, everything was taped from start to finish, so there's no question on what was spoken between whatever.
	What hit her is, why are you so angry?
	Where are you going so fast?
	There's a problem here.
	There's an obvious problem.
	That's what her own words, her own information, she volunteered to us on her feelings.
	Wow.
	Alright, well, here's where we're going to have to leave it for the top of the hour, Mike.
	Relax, you've got probably about seven or eight minutes.
	And if you want to do any communicating in that time with Jaina, I know you did tell us Jaina is listening to this right now, isn't she?
	I assume she is.
	I can't speak for Jaina, but I assume she is.
	All right.
	Well, if you have any communicating to do, you've got about eight minutes to do it, and we'll be directly back to you.
	All right, Mike?
	Wonderful to see you.
	Talk to you then.
	All right.
	A private investigator, contract employee of Campo, our TV channel for Oklahoma City.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from june 9th 1995
	worldwide humiliation so
	worldwide humiliation.
	The United States of America is a global power.
	presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired June 9th, 1995.
	I've got a special guest.
	His name, for the record, uh, is Mike.
	That's not his real name.
	He's a private investigator, a subcontractor, employee of Channel 4 television, KFOR, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
	And he's here telling us about the story that he's been working on, he says, with Jaina.
	Who is the reporter who broke all this in Oklahoma City.
	It's a big story and in a lot of ways we're just getting started.
	I'm going to try and take care of the commercial continuity right here at the beginning so
	we can shoot straight through.
	Coaster Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device
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	Looking for the truth?
	You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
	I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
	Governments won't do that, and the reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
	They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
	If you actually truly believe that we were being visited by extraterrestrials, and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
	Absolutely not!
	You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
	And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
	So, the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
	Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Good morning, I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	My guest is Mike, a private investigator, a subcontract employee for Channel 4 television, KFOR, the station that has broken the story about John Doe No.
	2.
	Last hour, we got a graphic description of how he's collected the evidence, the steps that Mike has gone through, And, uh, so here he is once again.
	Mike, are you there?
	Yes, I am, Mark.
	So, um, so here you are, this large collection of videotapes, of IDs, of witnesses.
	In other words, you guys think you've got John Doe number two.
	Well, we, we, we have an individual that definitely looks a lot like John Doe number two.
	There's, there's no doubt about that.
	Can you, can you, how much can you tell us, uh, about this individual?
	And, and are you not afraid You'll spook him.
	Or do you want to?
	Absolutely not.
	Absolutely not.
	I just want to... Any questions you have, I'd like to answer you.
	You might just throw them at me and I don't know what I can answer until then.
	We have quite a bit of information.
	We know who he is.
	We know where he works.
	Like I say, we don't know if this is John Doe number two.
	That's where we like to get to the bottom and have him question, find out if he isn't.
	Fine.
	If he is, why hasn't he been arrested or questioned?
	And that's where we're at right now with the investigation.
	So in other words, you guys are sitting there saying, look, we fed all this stuff to the FBI.
	Correct.
	And they haven't, as far as you can tell, made any moves to collect this guy up and question him themselves.
	I don't know if they have or not.
	I assume they're You know, I assume that they're taking the information we give them and doing their own investigation and doing what they feel is right and what, you know, under the law they have to do.
	Alright, try this one out for size, Mike.
	In the beginning, they had the composite drawing of John Doe No.
	2.
	They said, there is a second person involved.
	Here is the composite photograph.
	Then, slowly as time went on, that began to fade and fade and pretty soon we're hearing stories saying, Well, authorities now think there may be no such thing as John Doe No.
	2.
	At all.
	There may be no John Doe No.
	2.
	That this was, you know, a one-man band job.
	And I'm still hearing that, really.
	I've heard no renewal of interest, other than there through you in Oklahoma City, regarding the fact that John Doe No.
	2 may even exist.
	That's correct.
	I'm not sure if he does.
	All we have to go by is the APBs they've put out, the information they've put out.
	There was the initial composite drawing of the John Doe No.
	2, then it was the secondary composite drawing of John Doe No.
	2, and the looks changed a little bit.
	Then we came up, or the FBI came up with the composite drawing of the profile, which To me, it makes a lot of sense because we have been able to confirm that there is actual surveillance tape from the buildings.
	The surrounding buildings.
	That's confirmed and that has been reported.
	Have you seen it?
	No sir, I haven't seen it.
	And if I did, I couldn't tell you actually, Art.
	Without telling me what they are, it's the only way I know to ask this question.
	Mike, are there a lot of things that you know about this story that you can't tell me right now?
	Yes, it's definitely fair to say that.
	You're going public then.
	You would state your reason for going public on this or coming on the program with me is because you are dumbfounded at the fact that the FBI has not yet made any moves or You want to force the issue?
	No sir, not at all.
	The reason I went public with you is this simple fact.
	We heard of comments made on the show with people not knowing or not in the know and making assumptions.
	If the story is going to be told to whatever extent it can be told, at least let the facts come out so you know first hand so there is no question.
	I'm very careful I don't say anything I shouldn't say.
	And to let you know, look, if people want to talk about it, it's America.
	These are Americans that died in this building.
	There were kids.
	That's right.
	There were mothers, fathers.
	That's right.
	And bottom line is the truth has to come out, period.
	And to be completely honest with you, if I'm on the right track, and if I'm on the wrong track, I put a lot of time, effort, sweat, fear, you know, and if this is true, If this gentleman we do have on surveillance tape ends up by some chance being John Doe number two, the fear factor just increased a thousand fold because we've been dealing with somebody at that point who could have done such a terrible atrocity to America itself.
	Has Gina expressed fear for your own lives?
	You can't help but, if I told you no I would be arrogant, I'd be lying to you for the simple fact that of course we're fearful.
	This is the worst terrorist attack on American soil in history.
	And to think that a reporter and a PI, if it turns out our situation or our investigation be the investigation that breaks this thing, and our guy ends up being arrested for it, The FBI might have eventually got it, but they wouldn't have got it without us at this point, I don't feel.
	So we would be kind of the catalyst causing the investigation.
	So as far as you know, the FBI wasn't on to this guy until you put them on to this guy, is that right?
	That is correct.
	As far as I know, that's how we were led to believe.
	And again, when you went to the FBI and you said, alright, we've got all this stuff, we've got the story, and you were feeding them information and had been, but you come to them at some point and say, we want to run the story or we're going to run the story, you've got a problem with it, they call you back 20 minutes later and say, no, go ahead and run it.
	Correct.
	And they were also asked at that time if, look, are we on the wrong track because we don't, you know, we don't want to wrongly accuse or Initiated a federal investigation on an individual if we're on the wrong track.
	So, in other words, if we're on the wrong track, tell us that.
	Right.
	We'd like to back off.
	And, you know, I do surveillance for a living.
	I'd rather get back and watch workers' comp surveillance or something.
	I mean, it's, you know, much safer, one.
	It's normal as far as normal everyday activities.
	And this is out of the norm.
	It's out of the norm both for Jaina, everybody at Channel 4, And myself.
	We were kind of thrust in the middle of this, and being, you know, red-blooded Americans, we're not going to give up until we're told to back off, until we're told we're wrong, or until this gentleman's arrested.
	Period.
	We are going to get a resolve on this.
	So then, the FBI came back to you and, in essence, said, we're not going to tell you you're on the wrong track, we're not going to tell you you're on the right track, we're just going to not comment, or how did they come back?
	Basically, there Their general term that they use, and I can't blame them for it at all, is they will neither confirm nor deny.
	They will neither confirm, they will neither deny there is or there isn't.
	They will neither confirm that they're using the tapes we're giving them.
	We can only assume.
	Okay, did they express any hesitation that you're going with the story, or Channel 4 is going with the story, might spook the guy?
	Not by their words, absolutely not.
	They were, I'm sure, careful in the words they chose, but they basically, they had no objections with the story, and for us to do what we feel we had to do, or for the news channel to do what they feel they had to do, and they had no objections.
	Okay, without asking you a lot about the person's identity, would it be your impression that if the person you suspect may be John Doe No.
	2 is John Doe No. 2, That there might be an international connection to the bombing?
	Yes, sir.
	That was a yes?
	That was a yes.
	My personal professional knowledge in this, if this individual we're videotaping is involved, my opinion would be a yes.
	Well, that would utterly and completely change the nature of the story, and also, I might add, Mike, if that would be true, it would increase The danger, or certainly would have for Jayna and for yourself, at least up until this moment now, going public in the way you're going public actually may lessen the danger.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm sure that's occurred to both of you.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, without a doubt.
	Without a doubt.
	And that's neither here nor there as far as their motive or motive is sincere.
	In that we want to do what we want to do.
	I personally know people, relatives of friends of mine, who have been pulled over in more than one state as of within 30 days because they look like John No.
	2 and questioned in detail in multiple states.
	Yet, you know, there must be some method to the madness as far as the investigation.
	And I'm not an FBI agent, nor could I be.
	The fact is, You know, by them not questioning him up to this point, clearly, to me, we must be on the right track to a point.
	You know, to a certain truth in what we're saying.
	All right, look, I'm going to keep pushing, and when I push too far, you just let me know, and I'll back away.
	All right.
	You said, if this John Doe No.
	2 is John Doe No.
	2, that it would be an international connection.
	Yes, sir.
	To what nation?
	I'd rather not say.
	Okay.
	That's fine.
	What I would now like to do, Mike, is to let my audience get involved and ask you questions.
	Wonderful.
	And again, you know, you can handle their questions the way you've handled mine.
	When you get one you can't handle, just say, I'm sorry, I can't answer that, or whatever, and we will understand.
	I mean, you're in a very tough position.
	I sympathize.
	With where you are in this investigation at this point, and I really want to thank you for coming on, because this story has been driving me up a tree for days.
	That makes two of us, Art, I'll tell you.
	Well, and more days, I suspect, for you, my friend.
	You bet, you bet.
	All right, Mike, let's try a few phone calls, see what happens.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Yeah, Art.
	Hello.
	John Doe, number three, I believe, Mike.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	My real name is Bill.
	I live in Portland, Oregon.
	Portland, all right.
	I tell you, this guy mentioned earlier a lot of nerves, Mike.
	I think you're falsely building the hopes of the families out there in Oklahoma City.
	I hope you've got some good grounds to stand on this.
	Well, sir, if you were listening to the last hour, were you?
	I've been listening to the last 20 minutes, at least.
	The last 20 minutes.
	That's not enough.
	During the last hour, he described in some great detail the specific grounds he's built this on.
	They've got a lot of witnesses, or several witnesses, who have made detailed, big line-up IDs of this individual.
	So this is not a story wavering on matchsticks.
	And if I can interject something here too, Bill, to let you know, we, the channel, the news channel, has had a lot of support from a lot of families of the victim.
	And they want to know the truth, period.
	Here in Oklahoma, everybody wants to know the truth.
	There's things that, you know, I can't say on the show, but some of the families of some of the victims are involved in certain aspects of this investigation that we're conducting.
	So, there's no doubt, you know, these people suffered a great loss, the families that we really feel for them.
	That's why we're so careful to, you know, Second sourcing it isn't good enough.
	We source things three times, four times, as many times as we can source them.
	And Bill, I agree with you that you've got to be careful about the victims' families, but I'll bet one thing, Bill, I bet they want to know the truth, don't you think?
	Well, we as Americans want to know the truth, is the bottom line of this.
	I mean, that was a sad, sad situation, and a lot of involvement in it was pointed fingers in all different directions, and the Americans were the last to be believed to be the ones to be doing it.
	And now we're back to stage one, when it originally was forecasted of foreign involvement.
	I agree.
	And we think, and I think anyway, and Mike seems to agree, that that could be the reason why A, the FBI is very cautious about making any move, and B, why other media outlets have been so cautious about picking up on the story.
	Exactly.
	And that's why I'm hoping that this guy's got all his ducks in a row and all his eyes
	dotted and his tees crossed before he makes his accusations that they got this guy.
	Well, he's actually not making an accusation, Bill.
	Thank you.
	You are turning this information, or have turned it over, to the FBI.
	If there's any questioning to be done, or arresting to be done, it will be the FBI that will do it, right Mike?
	That is correct.
	Everything that I have not told I have not told you Art, in any of this conversation, nothing that has not been made public record via Channel 4 News Channel.
	And before it gets put public record, it is given to the FBI and it doesn't go on the air without them letting know that they plan to take it on the air and give a blessing or a request not to put it on the air and to go from there.
	Alright, I'm going to ask another one that's in questionable territory.
	Is there anything yet that Channel 4 has wanted to put on the air that the FBI asked them not to?
	I really can't answer that, Art.
	Because you don't have the knowledge or because you shouldn't?
	Because I'd rather not.
	Ease to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Mike.
	Good morning.
	Art, this is Craig from Lutton.
	Lutton, Oklahoma.
	Yes, Craig.
	Mike, are you aware of any of the accusations coming out of KPOC, out of Ponca City, that the 80th may have had McVeigh under surveillance before the bombing?
	Lawson, have you heard anything about that?
	Craig, I'd rather not even comment on that.
	It's a completely different area here and, you know, I'd rather not say whether if I even know anything about that.
	Okay, well good work up there.
	Keep it up.
	All right.
	Thank you very much.
	And we may have time for one more before the bottom of the hour.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	My question is, does he know if there is a big American connection?
	In other words, was it an American and a foreign agent?
	All right.
	Yeah, that's good.
	Well, I guess the question is answered in a way.
	Uh, we already, or the FBI, I'm sure, already thinks they know about the American connection portion of it.
	What you're contending is that this, uh, this individual, if he is John Doe number two, would mean an international connection.
	So, would that mean, Mike, would you be willing to extend that and say that means it's some kind of joint operation?
	Well, where we're at right now, as far as our investigation, what the FBI has, I don't know.
	Um, where we're at, you know, we're just to the point that we have enough eyewitnesses and people that we've been able to source a few times over to really nail him as far as eyewitnesses.
	You know, we have eyewitnesses that without a doubt that we're 100% we back or they back and I back.
	So you think you've got the right guy?
	The question is, would that represent a sort of a A deal between the devils, is that what you're suspecting?
	We're not even at that point in the investigation, Art, for the simple matter that... Alright, Mike, hold that thought.
	We'll get right back to it after the bottom of the hour break.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an on-going presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
	This is a presentation of the Coast to Coast project.
	you You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an on-call presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	Good morning.
	My guest is a man named Mike, not his real name.
	He's a private investigator, subcontractor of Channel 4 television, KFOR, working with Jayna Davis on this story.
	Since the bombing, they think they've got John Doe number two nailed.
	we'll talk to mike again in a moment you're listening to our bills over in time on premier radio
	networks Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from
	June 9th, 1995.
	Music Back now to Mike Moore.
	Mike, there are several faxes that have come in.
	Here's one, for example, from Rick.
	I'd like to know if Mike has any idea whether John Doe No.
	2 may be operating on his own or behalf of another government.
	I couldn't answer that, Art.
	I really couldn't.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I don't know the answer.
	All right.
	Let's give him a little feedback here.
	We're getting feedback again.
	All right.
	What will help is if you get real close to that phone and speak up real loud.
	Okay.
	How's that?
	Much better.
	All right.
	Alright, um, did Mike keep copies of the data that he gave to the FBI?
	Absolutely.
	So in other words, uh, you can back up what you claim you've given the FBI with videotape?
	Absolutely.
	Everything that I've told you, that I have on videotape, or that Jayna Davis gave to, uh, you know, or she has on videotape, we have definitely backed that up.
	Alright.
	A few times over.
	Alright, from Rebecca in Houston.
	Art, the lack of interest on a national basis still makes me incredibly angry.
	As of last night, I heard the same Texas State Network talk show host refer to you, me I guess, as someone who fell hook, line, and sinker for a hoax.
	The nonchalance of the FBI is incredible.
	They certainly arrested McVeigh, detained the Michigan guys with less information than it seems that they have on the Iraqi national.
	What about those fellows who like to drink that the FBI tracked all over the U.S.
	and detained?
	It boggles the mind to think they've not detained this fellow.
	This story still stinks.
	Rebecca Houston, is there something about this story to you, Mike, that stinks?
	Rebecca, I tell you, I can't say anything stinks about it.
	This is my backyard here, and for the simple reason is I have faith in our government, I have faith in our federal law enforcement, and You know, I do have faith, and I know they're going to do the right thing.
	I know the American people are going to find out who did this.
	It might be a while.
	I hope it's not, because if it's a while, you know, Gina Davis and I are going to continue our investigation until he's either released, you know, cleared and released by the FBI, or arrested, or whatever.
	We're going to follow this to the end.
	So we want closure.
	We really want closure.
	We're doing it for the closure.
	Mike, I know you can't speak officially for them, but would you say, to this point, Channel 4 in Oklahoma City is standing by the details of their story as they have presented your investigation?
	They're standing by it?
	Absolutely, 100%.
	Alright, let's take some more calls.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Good morning.
	Hi, this is Dave in Monterey.
	Yes, Dave.
	Um, I just don't know where to begin.
	I think it's dangerously close to yelling fire in a crowded movie theater.
	Notoriously bad are these eyewitness accounts.
	And that's all that you're substantiating and basing this story on.
	How can you sit there and say that this John Doe No.
	2 was in fact a Iraqi or whatever the news story was?
	He hasn't said that.
	They're saying they've identified John Doe No. 2 Based on several independent witnesses picking him out of a substantial lineup.
	He's backing up K4's statement that it was an Iraqi colonel in the army.
	I'd like him to address that point about being a colonel.
	Alright, good.
	Let's do that.
	As far as the statement of being a colonel, that was not made.
	What we have been able to confirm here in Oklahoma City Through our various information.
	It has been sourced at more than one individual.
	We source this through people in the knowledge.
	This was not sourced through eyewitnesses.
	This was sourced from people that would be in the know.
	This gentleman was in the Iraqi Army in Desert Storm for a fact.
	That has been sourced.
	That was one of the things we sourced so thoroughly.
	All right, so you stand by that.
	Absolutely.
	This man was in the Iraqi Army, and I had it that he fought in the war under Saddam Hussein against the United States.
	Absolutely.
	We have not confirmed rank.
	We do not know.
	We don't know exactly what his military occupational specialty was.
	We do not know.
	We just have confirmed, you know, from people that would be in the know, not somebody that overheard, but we've gone to sources and confirmed that he was definitely in Well, Mike, there have been a lot of people who have been after me with the same kind of rhetoric that this man just came after you with, that were, you know, fire in the theater, this is a big hoax, you heard Rebecca's thoughts, and I've been holding onto this story like red meat.
	and pursuing it and uh... again i want to thank you for coming on the air
	and uh... verifying so many aspects of it uh... let me try this question of mike what is your opinion
	of the ball of the bomb or bombs theories in other words to blast ten seconds apart
	bob from roswell new mexico have you touched on that aspect of it that that
	all to be honest with you are tight i'd haven't even wanted to
	go that aspect for this simple reason we're we're not doing the
	investigation to find out you know that the details of it
	Um...
	We're just wanting to, you know, there is a missing, at least, you know, it was reported, the FBI's reported, their latest report was they're looking for three to five individuals.
	It's what they last reported here in Oklahoma City.
	And, you know, one of them being this John Doe No.
	2, which, you know, that's the only track we're going on.
	We're not going anywhere else.
	All right, so the audience then would be well advised to confine their questions to you, to your investigation of who you'd believe to be John Doe No.
	2, which is a totally non-trivial matter, considering what we think we know about him.
	Wild Card Line 2, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Mike and Art.
	I'm in Las Vegas, Nevada and I threw away my sketches of John Doe number two about three weeks ago when I heard that they had found and questioned the suspected John Doe number two and found that he just happened to be renting some other equipment or doing some other business at the rental place at the same time that McVeigh was renting the truck.
	All right.
	What about that, Mike?
	Do you know anything about that?
	Are you trying to touch base there on a certain individual you can name?
	There have been so many sightings across the United States.
	Mike, if you have two phones up, it would help a lot to hang one up.
	Excellent.
	I'm getting to that right now, Art.
	Okay, thank you.
	What it does is it cuts down the volume that we manage to get on the air, and it's a little marginal anyway, so that'll help a lot if you hang that other one up.
	In other words, to your knowledge, has the FBI taken the photograph of the person you believe is John Doe No.
	2 into the rental agency?
	To my knowledge, I do not know.
	I know that they have taken photographs and done photo lineups.
	Whether there be ones that we have provided them or ones from surveillance tapes, I do not know.
	But I know they have done photo lineups.
	All right.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Mike.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	How are you doing, gentlemen?
	I was wondering, I didn't hear from you at the beginning of the program, was the information right that he was seen with McVeigh a few days, was that confirmed, a few days before the bombing?
	Alright, I'll tell you what we're going to do, caller.
	We'll go through all that again.
	If I can hold your mic past the top of this next hour, a lot more stations join the network, and there are a lot of people who have joined in the middle of this, and they're going, what the hell are they talking about?
	This sounds important.
	And so we may have to retrench a little bit at the beginning of the next hour.
	Can you handle that?
	Yeah, no problem.
	Good.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hi.
	Good morning.
	Art Libertarian Nationalist, Aurora, Colorado.
	Yes, sir.
	Mike, as Art has stated a couple nights ago, the national media could cover itself on this by simply reporting it as KFOR, as reported, you know, so on and so forth.
	I think there are reluctance to touch this at all.
	Is what really smells to me.
	And, uh, I don't, uh, share your faith in our government.
	I think there's, uh, something a lot more to this thing.
	All right, well, um, yeah, let me rephrase what he said, Mike.
	Um, in the beginning, uh, right after the blast, uh, oh my God, there were reports everywhere.
	CNN would say such and such a television station is reporting the following.
	And even I can understand, for example, NBC, CBS, NBC, CNN, they might all not, you know, be able to get the people out in the field to do and cover the investigative work that you've done and verify it all and get it on the air themselves.
	But that certainly has never stopped anybody from reporting what another major network affiliate radio or television station has just reported.
	And it is odd to me and everybody else that this has been so quiet.
	I just, like we were talking earlier, one that I'm aware of, there's at least nine there that have showed interest, and by my being in the news station on a daily basis, there's calls coming in continually all day long.
	Whether these people are wanting to source information and wanting the station to divulge, You know, who they are and want to do their own investigation.
	The sources won't be revealed.
	Okay, look.
	That's where I think the problem is.
	I see.
	All right.
	Let's say I'm Bernard Shaw from CNN and I come to you and I say, look, Mike, we're a big network.
	We want to run with your story.
	We need to know what you know.
	We need to know about your sources.
	We will keep them as close to the chest as you have.
	I don't know what kind of promises you've made to your sources.
	Maybe you can tell us that, and maybe that's why you can't do it.
	But if I'm Bernie Shaw, what do you tell me?
	It's this simple.
	Not only myself, but Gina Davis herself has guaranteed these people absolute no releasing of any of their information to anybody other than the FBI.
	Period.
	And it's unconditional.
	We cannot waver from that.
	Our word is, you know, our integrity and our word is all we have.
	And I commend you for standing on that.
	And then I, all of a sudden, think I do understand the hesitation of some of the major networks to go because you can't give them, you really can't give them what you've got, can you?
	No, sir.
	They'd have to be going on our word.
	And there's been so much disinformation and misinformation out there from, you know, everything out there already that's been reported, this, that, and the other.
	You know, there was the problem with the big report on R.E.S.T.
	soon to be made out in eastern Oklahoma in a religious cult area of Eagle Hill City, and that was all over the press, and there's just been so much misinformation out there.
	I, personally, I believe they're just kind of getting a little skeptical and just watching what goes.
	You know, I don't blame them for that.
	All right.
	Let's see.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art Meister.
	Where are you, sir?
	This is Guy in New Orleans.
	Good morning, Mike.
	Good morning.
	First off, I also would like to say I salute your fidelity to professionalism.
	That's good to hear in your line of work.
	Basically, mine's kind of a double question, but I'd like to know if, one, do they know how or do you know how McVeigh and this guy here first got their, you know, contact with each other and started seeing each other?
	Alright, well let's take them one at a time.
	The genesis of their relationship, can you comment on that at all?
	No sir, I can't at this point.
	I will tell you that is actively part of our investigation.
	We're trying to track that down.
	We're working diligently at it.
	You know, that's of course more detailed.
	As far as the investigative standpoint and time-consuming than it was to do surveillance on this gentleman.
	Yeah, that's deeper background.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Well, now just on John Doe number two, are you aware, and I don't need any details, but are you or your people aware of him having any kind of contact to and from his home country since he's been watched?
	To be honest with you, I'd rather not even comment with that.
	I'd rather not comment on it.
	Well, okay.
	Every time you say that, of course, everybody in the audience is going to be inclined to think that's kind of like saying, hey, here, read between the lines a little bit.
	And that's not why I'm saying it.
	I don't want to put any taint whatsoever towards this man's guilt or not.
	It's just this gentleman looks like number two.
	There's plenty of eyewitnesses, credible eyewitnesses.
	Many have been already interviewed by the FBI prior to them knowing who this gentleman was.
	You know, I'm not going to... It's not a thing of nationality.
	It's not a thing of country to us.
	It's bottom line.
	I don't care if it's my next-door neighbor.
	Where it goes doesn't matter.
	It does not matter.
	The point is, is he or isn't he involved.
	Right, but Mike... Yes, Mike, but you well understand.
	That if there's an international connection, the entire complexion of this story changes drastically.
	Well, it keeps me up at night.
	I mean, it's in Oklahoma, it's almost 3 o'clock in the morning.
	I mean, yes, it's a continual factor, and that's why we're so careful to multiple source what our investigation reveals for that factor, because I do not want to be involved in anything, and neither does the news channel, nor Jayna Davis, that Would resemble anything other than 100% factual information that we could prove.
	I'm sure Jane is feeling a lot of pressure.
	Oh, no doubt.
	And she's such a tenacious reporter that she's a good team member to be on.
	All right.
	First time callers, area 702-727-1222.
	No, no, no.
	No name?
	No last name, sir.
	We're going to try this again.
	We don't allow last names on the air, so give us your first name and tell us where you're calling from.
	Okay.
	My name is Mark.
	Right.
	I'm calling from Kingman, Arizona.
	Yes, Mark.
	I grew up with Mike Fortier, who is an Army buddy with Tim McVeigh, and I'm just wondering how he is connected in this, if you know anything that's going on with him as far as, you know, he hasn't been charged with anything yet, he's supposed to testify.
	I'm just wondering how he plays in all this.
	Mike Fortier?
	Um, any comments at all, Mike?
	Uh, basically, as far as I can even comment on that, that I, you know, would be comfortable in doing is, um, I did a little survey on Mr. Fortier when he was in town, confirmed he was in town.
	Uh, where it went from there, basically, was back in Kingman, Arizona.
	I have not been able to, to, nor has JNA connect our John Doe No.
	2 look-alike to Mr. Fortier, if that's what you're asking.
	There's nothing in our investigation so far that has connected him to Mr. Fortier or even to Kingman, Arizona for that matter.
	Mike, let me ask you for a percentage.
	With all the investigative work you've done, this man that you say looks like John Doe No.
	2, from a personal point of view, what percentage of chance do you think it is that you really have John Doe No.
	2?
	How high Put me on the spot here.
	I can tell you this, compared to everybody else that has been questioned as John Doe Number 2, the likeliness and the necessity there, to me, that he needs to be questioned is 100%.
	There is more leaning towards him, even today it was broadcast on Channel 4, some surveillance tape taken, Everybody's been saying that the actual John Doe number two has a tattoo on the upper left arm.
	Yes.
	Which would coincide with the latest profile which was at the left side of his face.
	Okay?
	Which would make sense if he was on surveillance video.
	You'd get the left arm with the left side of the face if he was driving a vehicle, correct?
	Yes.
	So, as of today, up until this point, our guy has worn nothing but long-sleeved shirts.
	So, as of yesterday, actually.
	We finally got some good, ideable close-up videotape that was put on the air of this gentleman's left arm in this Clear as Day, a tattoo.
	So, I mean, I'm 100% convinced that this gentleman has to be questioned and either cleared or charged.
	Period.
	I am convinced of that 100%.
	Whether it's John Doe number two, I don't know.
	Let's say, just for For the sake of it, that this guy's out there listening right now, or watching Channel 4's reports, which I imagine he would be, um, I mean, he's gotta know!
	He's gotta know that he's the one, and that the investigation's beginning to get awfully close and awfully warm, if not from the FBI, then from the media, and isn't that gonna spook him?
	We're the only media, or they're Channel 4's the only media in town that knows who he is.
	That's it.
	I mean, there's no doubt about it.
	I know, I know, but Channel 4 is saying so, and you're here this morning saying so.
	Well, let's put it this way, Art.
	I assume, you know, we have them under surveillance.
	I assume if this guy packs up and wants to drive out and leave, I can assure you that if my investigators or myself sees that, there's going to be plenty of phone calls made to people to try to put a quick hiatus on it if it happens.
	And in fact, of course, if he's under surveillance by the FBI, obviously, if he tried to flee, they'd, too, be on him, like... Sure.
	And if he's not guilty, why flee?
	And, you know, who knows?
	Who really knows on that?
	Can't get in his head.
	I wish I could.
	Do you think that the FBI's, in effect, telling you to go ahead and broadcast, telling Channel 4 to go ahead and broadcast, might have been From their point of view, a good idea because John Doe number two suspect, if he did see the broadcast, would probably pack his bags and begin heading for parts unknown.
	You know, we're assuming this man has the television set.
	I mean, you kind of have to know a little bit more of the investigation.
	If not, maybe he's got a radio, huh?
	Yeah, that could be.
	That could be.
	It's just, you know, there's a lot of the factors in there that we can assume and interject in there that That I don't know.
	I mean, to be honest with you, Art, this whole investigation, up to the point where it was breaking, made absolutely no sense.
	Then, all of a sudden, it completely fell together.
	All right.
	And that's where we'll pick up when we come back.
	Stay put.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	tonight featuring a replay of coast to coast am from june ninth
	nineteen ninety-five the
	the the
	the you're listening to our film somewhere in time
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	Talk radio.
	Live.
	Uncensored.
	Unscreened.
	And this morning we're doing, um, something I think very important.
	As you know, for the last several days, we've been going round and round and round, following a couple of faxes that arrived here regarding a story on, um, KFOR News Channel 4 in Oklahoma City.
	And, um, you know, I'm going to now have to, and I excuse the earlier plea, the earlier audience will have to excuse me, As there are so many affiliates now joining that we've got to retrench just a little bit.
	I'll try and do it as quickly as possible.
	Basically, we got this faxed, and here's how it started.
	Art, the lead story on Oklahoma City's KFOR News Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock, actually after the basketball game, this is in the initial night of the broadcast, was a report revealing the identity of John Doe, number two.
	Reported Gina Davis, ...has worked on this story since one week after the tragedy.
	Davis presented witnesses who wish to remain shadowed with voice disguised who saw McVeigh and John Doe No.
	2 several days before the attack.
	One witness claims that the pair drank beer at a bar in northwest Oklahoma City.
	She says John Doe No.
	2 spoke with an Iranian Iraqi accent.
	Actually, that's been corrected a little by my guest.
	uh... that uh... that uh... he had some sort of accent it was difficult to understand and that they spoke in arabic language this also may not be so further research by channel four identified rondo number two through surveillance photos obtained by local businesses near tenth and ten this also is incorrect but there are indeed surveillance photos uh... which forces to an amplot from the april morrow building where it used to be the report showed some three shots of rondo number two This is apparently now the Channel 4 story.
	It showed three shots of John Doe No.
	2, but scrambled the face as he has not yet been arrested or charged.
	Research done by KFOR has revealed John Doe No.
	2's name and nationality, but they did not release the name at the FBI's request.
	The report did say the man was an Iraqi national who served in the Iraqi military during the Gulf War.
	Desert Storm, under Saddam Hussein.
	The report also said the man is and has been under FBI surveillance and that he has a tattoo on his left arm.
	That was the facts.
	This morning, I received yet another fact.
	More on John Doe number two from KFOR.
	As a result of Wednesday night's broadcast, a new witness has come forward to KFOR.
	This witness places John Doe number two four blocks from the bomb site Seconds after the blast, speeding away in a brown pickup truck.
	The witness said she ran from her office after hearing the blast, was almost run down by the brown Chevy pickup.
	She's got a real clear, she got a real clear view of the driver, John Doe number two.
	She describes his look as a very angry look, full of hate.
	After she learned of the bombing, she felt this man was involved.
	This witness said she recognized the man in the KFOR report even though his identity was hidden by computer graphic.
	Since Wednesday she's been with KFOR and has identified the picture of John Doe number two that KFOR has.
	The witness also said she's been interviewed by the FBI the day of the bombing but when asked if she saw a tattoo on the upper left arm she told the FBI no.
	KFOR then showed Some full-body pictures their reporter had taken of John Doe number two.
	In one of them, he's wearing a tank top.
	And when they zoomed into his upper left arm, you can clearly see the tattoo.
	Now, our network, in fact, I personally contacted the manager of KFOR television earlier in the day.
	I sent him a fax listing all of our affiliate radio stations so that he might understand that I'm for real.
	He was polite.
	We talked.
	I suggested he fax or call me so we could get an interview with Janet Davis, the reporter who broke this story.
	He said it sounded interesting.
	I see what he would do, or could do, and I heard nothing.
	Our network made many valiant attempts and talked to many people at KFO, our television, during the day.
	Nobody was willing to do an interview.
	Janet Davis is not willing to do an interview, and you may shortly understand why, or perhaps you won't.
	Shortly before airtime, I connected with a person we're going to call Mike, who is a private investigator, a subcontract employee of Channel 4 television, KFOR, in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, he says.
	And He has been giving us as many details of the investigation as he's been able to.
	And what I'm going to ask Mike to do now, or in a moment rather, is to kind of retrench and tell us again exactly what it is his investigation began with Janet Davis shortly after the bomb went off.
	What that investigation has revealed about the man they believe is John Doe number two.
	all of that coming up in just a moment looking for the truth
	You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
	You know what?
	We are a wall to them.
	And I have a feeling that the wall is getting stronger.
	And it's going to be very tough for them to bust through it.
	But I want to warn people.
	Because the global controllers realize power is slipping from their hands, they're going to really try to do whatever they can to try to get us back in line.
	And like a buck and bronco, all we've got to do is throw the new world order off our back.
	now we take you back to the light of june ninth nineteen ninety five
	on our girls somewhere in time mike again of but we're back on the air and
	on track to retrench so much here but we've got a brand new audience at this
	hour and so as i just helped capsulized And believe me, it's only a capsule of what's occurred in the last two days, because I've been really just up a tree with this.
	If you would please, you're an investigator.
	You've been working with a private investigator.
	Mike is not your real name.
	Correct.
	I wouldn't expect you to give your real name.
	You've been working with Jenna Davis since the beginning of this.
	By the way, I haven't even asked you this yet.
	Um, how did you and Jaina get together on this?
	Can you, can you talk about that at all?
	In other words, how did you join forces?
	Well, actually, uh, I've done work for, for, uh, I own a detective agency, of course, here in Oklahoma City.
	And I've done work for Channel 4 on, uh, for the last four years.
	So, uh, there's always been that, uh, business relationship there.
	And Jaina is a personal friend of my wife and I, and, and, uh, we've worked other stories together.
	We just kind of, you know, she's tenacious, I'm tenacious, and that's what it takes on a case like this, and it was just natural.
	All right, that's a perfect answer, and I appreciate it.
	Now, Mike, if you would, capitalize for us how you came to the point where you are right now on my program this morning.
	In other words, all this investigation, what have you done?
	Basically, we've taken some information as checkout leads, as people call the news channel up.
	We've tried to confirm, you know, tried to I've got to run you back through this.
	we did a lot of badly a lot of uh... thing you know that i think that we
	could definitely a newer you know
	learn were false and we stuck with what we could prove it what we could confirm
	in triple source in and you know source more than one uh...
	in other words the witnesses that channel of four put on television for
	example in shadow uh... i've got a run you back through this you sat them
	down with
	uh... as many as twenty photographs in a lineup and you have them pick out
	uh... using very careful methods are you have them pick out and they did pick out this one photograph of this person
	you believe to be john doe number two
	They picked this out, right?
	More than one, actually.
	We showed them approximately, depending on the witnesses, but on average we showed 40 to 50 pictures.
	And out of 40 to 50 pictures, there were only approximately six of those which were of our John Doe number two look-a-like.
	So, the odds of them Not picking him were greater than the odds of them picking him.
	Of course.
	So, um, you know, every one of the witnesses picked him out.
	You're pretty confident, uh, then about that aspect of it.
	In other words, this is, this is the same guy each one of the witnesses picked out, right?
	Absolutely.
	Uh huh.
	Um, so, so now you think you're on the track of John Doe number two.
	John Doe number two, uh, you verify, have verified for us Was a member of the Iraqi Army, is that correct?
	Yes, sir, that is correct.
	A member of the army who fought against U.S.
	forces in Desert Storm?
	Correct.
	And you have gathered all of this video information, and I presume some stills, and you've been doing surveillance on this John Doe No.
	2, and you've given all of this stuff to the FBI?
	Yes, sir.
	The FBI, and then you went to the FBI, I guess Channel 4 did, and you said you were in on those conversations and said, look, we want to go to air with this.
	We want to broadcast this.
	You guys have any problem with it?
	Correct.
	And they said?
	They said do it.
	They said they had no objections to them airing the show or airing any of the pieces.
	Before each piece is put on the air, the FBI is contacted and let know what is going to be put.
	You know, give them a chance to say, hey, don't put that on the air.
	It might screw up an investigation or you guys are completely on the wrong track.
	And one thing you have to realize, your listeners have to realize is the news station that's doing this, you know, the ratings, Nielsen Ratings just came in.
	They swept it in Oklahoma City.
	They're number one in every category at every time.
	So you're dealing with the highest credibility as far as media in town.
	And they have that reputation.
	They are not going to put something that is not, you know, dead solid.
	That is, if they don't feel and back 100%.
	Okay then, Mike, again, and we've got to retrench this one too, having said what you just said about their credibility, it brings back the question, my God, this is the NBC affiliate radio station in the very city where the bombing occurred, breaking a story, saying, look, here we think we have John Doe number two, uh... we think there's an international connection we think that he fought uh... in the war against america we think all of this and uh... and not one uh... major network nbc cbs and what has yet picked it up or anything now you're you've got a list of those who have now picked up the story and it's beginning to grow read that list again who who's picked it up now okay let me grab my list here but the one that i'm aware of that have actually have copies
	Or the transcript, or have copies of the pieces.
	First is New York Times, AP Wire, UPI Radio Network, Dallas Morning News, and as of tonight, WNBC, the NBC affiliate in New York City, ran the story.
	Right.
	Arizona Republic, KFYI Radio, CNN, NBC News Feedwire, And several, and I can't name them, but several high-ranking senators on the Hill have called and asked for copies of all this.
	How many of the organizations that you name, that you know of, have actually run the story?
	I'm not aware of the... I know WNBC did for certain.
	You have to realize, Art, we're still doing our end of the investigation.
	I'm not the news guy, I'm the PI guy.
	I'm out there in the field just making sure, you know, in the craziness that's starting to snowball effect, starting to hit here, you know, we keep, Jane and I keep where we're at as far as the investigation.
	Don't lose sight of it.
	I personally, I don't care.
	I hope everybody gets it and wants it because the truth needs to come out.
	One.
	Two, this is America.
	Freedom of the press.
	Everybody has a right to know, because everybody in that building that died, the families that lost their loved ones, they're all Americans.
	They didn't just blow up part of Oklahoma City, they blew up part of the United States.
	They sure did.
	It's a crime against the people of the United States, period.
	No matter what city it was, heaven forbid this never happened again.
	I wouldn't wish this on any city.
	We'd be there to investigate it.
	It just so happened that it was in our backyard.
	How much investigation, how many hours do you think you put in on this so far, Mike?
	Easily, easily 12 to 18 hours a day.
	Wow.
	Since about the third day of the bombing.
	Has Jane been with you through most of it or have you been on your own a lot?
	We do everything as a team.
	She does her news end of it, putting the package together.
	I help her with the facts on the scripts and what have you.
	We're a team.
	She knows This is one case where the right hand definitely knows what the left hand's doing.
	If I'm doing my investigations on my own, she knows where I'm at, what I'm doing.
	I know where she's at, what she's doing.
	We coordinate everything.
	We do everything together as a team, you know, when possible.
	We interview everybody together.
	There's never a question, and there's always a third party, like a cameraman or another individual there to witness, and it's always on film.
	Alright, Mike, for the late audience, I need to ask again.
	I know that you obviously communicate frequently with Gina.
	What is her attitude about your doing this this morning?
	I didn't ask her, Art, and you're assuming I've talked to her since.
	That's true.
	Well, I presume that she knew about it before you did it, and I was wondering if she was apprehensive about it, thought it was okay, or... I can't talk to you.
	No comment on that, okay.
	No comment at all.
	I'm going to repeat the question I asked earlier as best as you can explain it.
	Why is Jana refusing interviews?
	No one said she's refusing them.
	I think it comes down to a question of, you know, you get so many people wanting something and until people really know your motives and what the heck's going on, everybody's apprehensive.
	You know, if this turns out, no matter what happens here, On our investigation.
	This is still the biggest crime story, you know, that there is right now.
	And it's terrible, and it's the biggest story around, and everybody and their dog that's involved in the media wants this story.
	You're right, and I'm glad to be getting it this morning, Mike.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hello.
	Yes, this is Kevin from Oklahoma City.
	Kevin, from Oklahoma City.
	Yes, Kevin, speak up good and loud.
	The fellow with the phone number.
	Yes.
	I was wanting to ask him, could he, you know, elaborate on the report I heard here about the second Middle Eastern man who
	was talking to McVeigh and John Doe number two and was seen by a lot of a
	couple of these different witnesses talk and I believe this is where the
	Arabic came in these two were talking in Arabic with John Doe John Doe number
	two and 2 and this other man was talking in Arabic while McVeigh was standing near.
	Okay, in other words, that raises the prospect of John Doe No.
	3.
	Right.
	Alright, Mike?
	Well, let's clear something up.
	Let's go ahead and clear something up.
	There was a second Middle Eastern-looking man.
	Oh!
	Individual.
	Individual.
	Okay, let's just leave it as individual.
	Seen with John Doe No.
	2 and McVeigh.
	Now, it was reported that McVeigh and these two individuals were seen It was also reported on one occasion, and it was sourced more than once, and it just slipped my mind to even mention it, that McVeigh was seen speaking a foreign language, but the individual did not know what the language was and did not recognize the language.
	Did they characterize it as Arabic sounding?
	I don't recall how she characterized it.
	I think she didn't recognize the language, period.
	You know, that's all I can say and be honest with you.
	So do you think, Mike, then obviously there is a John Doe number three?
	Well, one of the latest reports, I don't know if it's the last report, I think it's three in the morning here, my mind is getting weak, but one of the latest reports from the FBI was the fact that they were looking for three to five individuals, possibly.
	So there's really no telling how many people are actually involved in this thing.
	It's kind of scary to even try to put it together, to be honest with you.
	Well, the further you go, Mike, the more foreign it seems to get.
	Is that a fair statement?
	It's fair to say that the only thing really fair to say, Art, to be honest with you, would be the fact that the guy we are looking at is of Iraqi descent, period.
	Right, but what I mean is, when you refer then to there having been another individual, foreign individual, Who spoke with what you suspect to be John Doe number two, that was definitely in a foreign language.
	And you must have thought of Commie also, then.
	He was also, uh, McVeigh was also seen speaking in a foreign language.
	She just could not pick out the language.
	That's incredible.
	Um, alright, uh, first time caller line, you're on the air with Mike, hello.
	Hello, this is Joanne from Hillsboro, Oregon, listening on KEX.
	Yes, Joanne.
	And I had, uh, like a two-part question.
	Alright.
	Uh, the first of all, I was wondering if Mike thought there was still Possibly any significance to the date that the bombing happened, that it was on the anniversary of the Waco tragedy, or was it just coincidence?
	Anything on the date?
	Well, you know, it's all I hear is coincidence.
	I mean, our investigation, the date has absolutely nothing to do with it.
	Whether it had been that day, Christmas Eve, it's tempting to take that date and assume that there's a reason for that date, and there might be.
	But you don't know?
	We don't know.
	We have nothing in our investigation that, you know, there's nothing.
	As far as we're concerned, so far, the guy we have under surveillance, we've found absolutely no tie to any Waco guy.
	So there you are, ma'am.
	Okay, and I was wondering if either you, Art, or Mike could possibly speculate on either those in the FBI or those above the FBI having a motive for delaying the truth of this information.
	I know that they've kind of been milking it to Yes, and we speculated, really I did, and Mike sort of agreed with me earlier that a lot of people may feel stung by this.
	The FBI with their thinking that it was foreign in the beginning.
	uh... the media itself thinking it was foreign and uh... so they might be reluctant to come back to a story that might say gee, maybe it was foreign.
	Fair to say, Mike?
	Fair to say.
	I definitely would not speculate on anything as far as that goes.
	Alright, stay right where you are.
	30 more minutes and we'll be done.
	Mike, a P.I.
	on the job in Oklahoma City, back in a moment.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
	I'm going to play it again.
	Tonight's program originally aired June 9th, 1995.
	Good morning.
	My guest is a man named Mike.
	Not his real name.
	A private investigator.
	Working, he says, with Jayna Davis on the crime story of the decade.
	There's no question about it.
	In a moment, we'll get back to him.
	He's putting a good cloture on this week of talk radio.
	What a story it is!
	The audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM has a new name!
	Coast Insider.
	You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
	The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
	You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
	That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
	If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
	Visit coasttocoastam.com to sign up.
	Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	All right, back now to Oklahoma City, and Mike, are you there?
	I'm here.
	Well, first of all, you're a real trooper, you know, for staying up this way with us.
	Uh, this really, really needed to get out, Mike, and I guess that's one of the reasons you're here.
	We all want the truth.
	Correct.
	Correct.
	And right now, uh, the truth, as your investigation has shown, is leading in a very, very different direction than anything any of us have thought for a long time now.
	And I think, again, that accounts for the reluctance on a lot of people's part to begin going down this path again, but your evidence seems strong.
	I'll tell you, it's beyond strong.
	As far as we're going on our investigation, Art, you just do the investigation and keep an unbiased, you know, objective view.
	And then, you know, after a day, you're looking and you're looking at all your sources.
	And as an investigator, I kind of have to step back once in a while and regroup in my thoughts and my thinking for this.
	It's hard to imagine that if our John Doe No.
	2 lookalike Ends up being arrested and charged for this, and ultimately convicted for this.
	I don't want to convict the man, but who's to say?
	The scope and the reality is just starting to set in, not only with myself, but with Jaina Davis, because we've been able to source so many things on this that we have to catch ourselves and really grab on and realize that we're...
	Either way this goes, if it goes by the wayside, it was a hell of an investigation, and we were very thorough.
	Fine.
	If it goes the way, you know, it looks to be going to me, then, you know, I just can't imagine the scope and, you know, I was trying to compare it to something, you know, relative to this, and the only thing I can almost think of would be like the Bernstein-Woodward-Watergate deal.
	And I would think this is a hell of a lot higher in scope, you know, personally, in my mind, than that.
	I would agree.
	It is, Mike, in its own way, every bit as big.
	Now, I'm going to mention this, and I wonder if it's occurred to you, Mike, I'd heard there was a $2 million reward leading to the arrest and conviction of, or something like that, of John Doe No.
	2.
	Are you aware of that?
	We're aware of that, correct.
	That hasn't crossed our mind.
	Would that end up being a million for Jayna and a million for Mike?
	Actually, I wouldn't even fathom it.
	My luck never goes that way, but I would tell you.
	Art, we have discussed, you know, if that possibility, and we've already, if we would get anything out of it, we've already decided that we would split it evenly amongst the witnesses that came forward.
	Period.
	And that would be that.
	Uh-huh.
	There might be some, have you already, have you made the witnesses aware of that?
	Yes sir, we have.
	I'll tell you what, I take that back.
	We made one witness.
	One witness.
	We got real close with one witness.
	One of the primary witnesses that just put us on the road to this direction.
	And we've made that person aware that, look, you know, if this breaks, it's yours.
	The other ones, they have no idea.
	And I, to be honest, would rather keep them out of that knowledge.
	Well, you just, you want to try to be sure, I suppose, that you don't have a monetary consideration for testimony.
	Absolutely not.
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hello.
	Oh, hi, Art.
	Hey, this is Jimmy on KRAE in Cheyenne.
	Cheyenne, Wyoming.
	Yes, sir.
	I want to ask three quick questions.
	All right.
	If this is the guy, why is he still there?
	Two, if this is the guy, how come the FBI hasn't picked him up yet?
	And three, who stole the 3,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from that farm store a couple weeks ago?
	Alright, um, well let's see, if this is the guy, why is he still there?
	Any guesses, Mike?
	In other words, why hasn't he split for the Hills?
	If that's the case, I mean, why hasn't he left up to this point?
	I mean, uh, the stories have been run on this thing since Wednesday.
	I don't know.
	You know, I really can't get in this man's mind.
	I really wish I could.
	I, uh, there's, there's things in this investigation I cannot say, but I can tell you for a fact that I have personally, when seeing this gentleman, when he thought anybody was looking at him anywhere in public, he covers his face.
	I mean, I don't know.
	I can't get into his mind.
	Man, I wish I could.
	Alright, why hasn't the FBI moved?
	Pick him up.
	Best guess.
	I don't know.
	I think the scope of the investigation is wider than just him.
	You know, when you think the last report was anywhere from three to five individuals... So, in other words, they might be waiting for him to...
	To make contact and lead them further down the trail.
	Or, in their own investigation, possibly find the brains behind it, what have you, and go from there.
	That's all I can think of.
	Alright, and caller, the last question was about a shipment of ammonium nitrate.
	Alright, somebody stole 3,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from a farm store in Oklahoma about two weeks ago, I think.
	About two weeks ago, alright.
	Well, that's after the event.
	I'm aware of the report of it.
	I don't know.
	I mean, as in, you know, my only opinion on that, as in any... Hold on.
	Right.
	Hold it.
	Never mind.
	Sorry.
	I thought I heard somebody at my front door.
	I had me worried there.
	My opinion, as in any other crime or what have you that has happened in the past, Um, you know, I, I don't know.
	Maybe, you know, it's a, maybe it's an idea I gave somebody, some sick individual or group of individuals.
	I have no idea.
	All right.
	I'm going to, this is more ground that we've covered earlier, but your, your, your possible visitor at the door brought it to mind and that is your safety and that of Jane's as well.
	It is my dog at the window.
	Okay.
	That's good.
	I'm glad to hear it.
	But, but in fact, if there are deep international connections to this story, In the early stages of your investigation, Mike, there certainly would have been great personal danger for the two of you, and I'm sure that occurred to you.
	Oh, it has, and we discussed it.
	We feel that since it's come out on TV, if there turns out to be, I think we've helped make it more broad and more aware.
	And I think we've helped our chances on safety by coming out, to be completely honest with you personally.
	Yes, oh, I couldn't agree more.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Mike.
	Good evening, Art.
	Good evening, where are you?
	I'm calling from Wichita.
	Wichita, Kansas, alright.
	Yes, and I'd like to find out if Mike knows this person that they think is number two.
	Would he have been out of the area today at all?
	that he knows that uh... like i i'm saying this team
	or traveling or another another problem in other words was he out of uh...
	oklahoma city uh...
	you're talking about the day that is just past last twenty four hours yet to fit
	yesterday any comment i can tell you i know as of early in morning
	as of yesterday early morning to about all five thirty that i am personally
	aware of uh... he was in oklahoma city metro area so that's all i i can
	Up until about 5.30?
	That's, that's when I personally pulled off surveillance.
	Okay, just wondered, um, had a visitor in the shop where I work yesterday and, um... Alright, ma'am, well the answer is, uh, obviously, uh, apparently, uh, not who you thought it might be.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	KFOR calling from San Diego.
	Two quick questions.
	First, Mike, KFOR TV has a homepage on the World Wide Web on the Internet.
	However, it has not been updated since May 29th.
	Is there any chance that you know of that some of this material you've been generating, even the transcripts of the broadcast in question, will be put up there anytime soon for a World Wide audience?
	I, to be honest with you, that's out of my realm.
	I have no idea.
	I'm just a little lonely P.I.
	that does the surveillance and investigation.
	As far as the news end, I don't handle any of that.
	Mike, has it basically been you and Jayna, or do you have people that work for you?
	Has it been even a further group effort than we're aware of?
	Oh, it's been a complete news channel effort.
	There's been team coverage, because Jayna can't cover every angle.
	There's been other reporters covering.
	Other sections of it.
	As far as the investigation on number two, it's basically been Jane and myself and another reporter named Brad Edwards, who's a very diligent and experienced reporter.
	He's been working on it also.
	But it has been a group effort.
	I have employees, but to be completely honest with you, I want to keep my employees completely out of this and not put them in any possible harm way.
	I want to give you a chance to respond to the people that are saying This is some big hoax in Channel 4 and you and Jayna and the whole group are doing nothing but perpetrating a hoax.
	It's such a horrible, terrible allegation to make and I don't believe it for one second.
	But what would you say to them, Mike?
	I would put it this way.
	It's our backyard.
	There would be absolutely nothing for myself or the news channel to gain if it was anything but 100% something we would stand by.
	They're already the number one news channel in this area.
	Why would they do a hoax?
	They're already at number one.
	And why would they put all this at risk?
	Their reputation would be at risk.
	I can assume, just like Woodward and Bernstein way back when, with The Post, there must have been some pretty serious sit-downs between yourself, Jayna, and the management before this thing went to air, right?
	These still go on daily.
	It's a We do our checks.
	I know management does their own checks.
	I do my personal checks.
	Jayna does her own.
	It is a team effort, and everybody is 100%.
	I mean, News Channel 4 stands behind Jayna, our investigation, the story, 100%.
	They're not taking anything back, right?
	Absolutely not, because everything has been checked so thoroughly before it ever got to that point.
	There's so much of this art that you don't even know.
	I know.
	And if it breaks, it's...
	You've just heard a fraction of it, and the most interesting part is still what I can't tell you.
	I imagine that easily.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	I'm Fred.
	Well, where are you calling from?
	San Antonio.
	All right.
	I'm curious about the status of the brown pickup truck.
	Do you know where it is, Mike?
	All right.
	Can you tell the story of the brown pickup truck, and then tell us what you know, Mike, about where it might be now?
	Certainly.
	I can tell you that within minutes after the bombing on April 19th, there was an All Points Bulletin put out, which was broadcast on KFOR-TV, for a brown pickup, late model, smoked windows, tinted windows, and a smoke-colored bug screen, with at least two Middle Eastern-looking male occupants.
	That went on for a few hours, then for some reason it was taken off the APB.
	There were numerous, you know, over scanner traffic, you hear numerous people being pulled over in brown trucks.
	It kind of disappeared after a day or so.
	It kind of fell off the media.
	Then it was kind of brought back into the picture when they originally, the media, or the FBI originally started investigating Fortier and said his truck, that cream colored one, had ammonium nitrate in it.
	And then it was kind of thrust back into the picture.
	So that made us wonder, and we went back, and we went from there.
	We don't know where the truck's at.
	I personally don't.
	I know Jayna doesn't.
	No.
	We can tell you with the new eyewitness that came forward in fear, and was scared, but knew it was something she felt in her heart she had to do.
	Audience needs to know this is a new witness they're hearing about right now.
	One who was damn near hit by this brown pickup truck, and she saw the driver.
	And she has now ID'd that driver, identified that driver, to Mike and to KFOR as the suspect that all these other witnesses have confirmed is the suspect.
	Correct, Mike?
	Correct.
	And she came forward after the Wednesday, the initial airing on where KFOR decided to go ahead and put the pictures up, but mosaic the face out.
	She recognized him by hair and said, that looks like the hair.
	Before we ever did the line-up, Gina did an in-depth probably hour and a half interview with the woman where she described this guy to detail with this as well before ever seeing the pictures.
	And then when the pictures came out, she picked out six out of probably 40, I think 45 to 50 photos, six of which were of our number two look alike.
	The others were which of different American, Middle Eastern looking men, you know, various men.
	And she picked the six of this guy out.
	Uh, one of which, the strongest resemblance you might recall are the most strongest, uh, the most current, uh, composite drawing was that left side profile.
	Right.
	Well, in my surveillance video, I have a perfect left side profile of this number two lookalike, and if you superimpose one image, uh, if you superimpose the still shot from the video to the composite drawing as Gina has done, it is, it is, it is eerie.
	The outline, the nose, the brow, and if you recall on the profile, if you look at John Doe No.
	2's ears, they're kind of slanted and lower to the left.
	Almost the way Alfred Hitchcock used to walk into the shadow of his own image.
	Right, and he has offset ears that are odd on the composite.
	It is an eerie, eerie likeness.
	It's something you have to see.
	And again, for the audience, your presence with me this morning is because of the talk on this station On this network, I should say, over the last couple of days, and the powers that be have consented in your being here, correct?
	Correct.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Oh, thank you for taking my call.
	Let me get my radio.
	Yes, please.
	Where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Oakland.
	Okay, you're going to have to speak up good and loud.
	Okay.
	First of all, I heard a couple of callers called into CNN.
	Has anyone called you and told you that?
	And asked about it and gave your name and said that they heard it on your show.
	And they were asking if CNN had heard anything.
	In fact, there were two callers that called.
	Well, now they've heard a lot more, haven't they?
	Of course.
	And the only other thing, Art, I want to say to you, and please take this from my heart because I worry about you because you're so important to us.
	One thing that you might think about Is this terrorist bill that just passed, and the way that they're claiming people are malicious, please be careful because we do need you.
	And I don't really want to ask any questions, but to our audience, please don't get emotional and let the regular course of the law take its way because we need this man.
	Thank you, Mark.
	Well, thank you.
	There is no other way for it to occur, and what Mike is trying to do is to assist the course of law Taking its proper course, right, Mike?
	That is it.
	We just want to get to the truth.
	In other words, you've turned everything, everything over to the FBI.
	There's a good question.
	Is there anything you've held back at all?
	Absolutely not.
	Absolutely not.
	Matter of fact, we have turned absolutely everything that we can't see.
	If we see something that, well, there could be a tie, we keep it in our packet.
	We might not get to use it.
	We still turn it over to them, even though it might not have been on TV.
	And there's quite a bit that has not been on You've alluded to how much bigger the story is and all that we don't know and that you're unable to tell us.
	Can you tell me this?
	that they have our share of people on that they can call it anytime and they
	have a lot you alluded to how much bigger the story is a little and and all
	that we don't know and that you're unable to tell us
	can you tell me this when in your best estimation will some of these larger events begin to be public
	i will tell you this if number two is taken if number two look-alike is taken into
	question for questioning or arrested they will be put public that
	All right, um, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Yes, who is this?
	Art Bell.
	Art?
	Yes.
	How can you, I, you, be, when you're out talking on the TV?
	Listen, ma'am, I don't have much time here, so, um... Well, I want to tell you that this private detective is telling the truth.
	Oh, I'm quite certain he is, ma'am.
	Uh, because...
	I heard this the day after, not the private detective, but about the... Uh, okay.
	You want to hear this?
	I've been trying to get you since after the day of the bombing.
	You're going to have to do this very quickly.
	Please go ahead.
	I got it, okay.
	I was channel hopping, you know?
	It was, uh, 3... It was, no, 1.30.
	We're running out of... I found Pat Robinson.
	Never watched him.
	I stopped at the channel.
	Alright, I've got to go.
	I'm sorry.
	She's just not making her point quickly enough.
	Uh, Mike.
	We're running out of time here, and I just don't know how to thank you.
	It's been a very difficult several days for me, and I can only imagine many weeks now for yourself and for Gina.
	Is there anything you want to tell everybody out there as we wind this up?
	Yes, I do.
	Basically, just to remember, it's not a country issue.
	It's not a nationality issue.
	It's an issue of a crime.
	We're not.
	For people not to look at it as, you know, somebody from another country possibly, you know, could be involved in this.
	It's not that.
	It's just about justice, period.
	And no matter who might be, like I said earlier, Art, if it was my neighbor, it wouldn't matter to me.
	I mean, it's nothing but about the truth.
	And I wanted to come on the show because some comments were made and some things were being made that were untrue.
	And I thought, well, If you're going to go ahead and talk about it, you might as well talk about the truth, because that's how things get twisted out.
	And you're the only talk show that we've talked in depth, you know, period, about.
	And I think your listeners would appreciate that.
	I do appreciate it.
	We're going to stay on this story.
	It's obvious you're going to stay on this story.
	And Mike, I'll stay in touch with you.
	When more breaks, we'll talk with you again.
	Wonderful.
	Thank you, Mike.
	Thank you for your time.
	Good morning.
	You're listening to Ark Bells Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	This is a remastered version of the original song. It's a bit more difficult to hear the original version of the song.
	I'm sorry.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	A lot to digest, huh folks?
	That was some three hours.
	I will take comments on what's been heard.
	You're welcome to say whatever you like.
	This being an unscreened talk show, you know, within legal bounds and no bad language and all that, but beyond that, you may comment as you will on the previous three hours, and I am sure that you will have comments.
	It provided some satisfaction for me in being able to Draw some sort of culture and understanding of what we've been talking about for the last several days.
	It raises incredible issues.
	The possibilities are tremendous.
	It's a gigantic story, and I think you've just heard as much as there is to hear on it.
	Render your own judgments.
	Now, some other news, and then we'll get the phone lines open again here.
	I thought you should hear this.
	Came in in the last half hour.
	Hi, Art.
	I know it's a bit off subject, but I thought you ought to be interested.
	I just talked to my wife, who is working at the moment.
	She is a 9-1-1 dispatcher.
	I know the job, sir.
	They have been receiving numerous calls from people in the vicinity of Reno, Nevada, all reporting an object streaking through the sky, possibly impacting in the Hallelujah Junction area near the Nevada-California border.
	The calls she received were from points all around the Reno area, including Geiger Grade, Mount Rose, areas in Lassen County.
	It was described as meteor-like, and two of the reports claimed a yellow flash as it disappeared over the mountains.
	I was wondering if any of your other listeners in the Reno area have seen an object like this, and if so, could they relate what they observed over the air?
	That's from Jim in Reno.
	Thank you, Jim.
	And so there it is.
	It's out.
	Otherwise, the news of the day is probably, in many respects, less than we have just given you in the last three hours.
	Captain O'Grady, of course, it's wonderful that he's back.
	And the story of how Captain O'Grady was able to hide from the enemy is nothing short of incredible.
	And irrespective of A lot of questions about why his plane was hit by a missile, which, by the way, cut his airplane in half.
	He ejected from the front half of the airplane after the missile cut the aircraft, the F-16, literally in half.
	And, uh, he landed, um, uh, parachuted, uh, in, and he, uh, he hid in some underbrush.
	Ate bugs, drank rainwater, uh, covered himself with dirt, Watched five armed Bosnian Serbs come by him within, uh, minutes.
	And then, uh, successfully, uh, hit out for six days.
	Moved only between twelve and four in the morning.
	Carefully, uh, planned his radio transmissions.
	We'll go to the White House to meet the President Monday.
	The President will, I'm sure, ring every ounce of good publicity out of this.
	The President needs it.
	Is he in New Hampshire, as I suggested he was?
	Is he a candidate?
	Nobody knows.
	Is he running?
	Nobody knows.
	Will he say?
	No, not exactly.
	Says he's not running.
	Says he's not not running either.
	So, you know, who knows?
	Uh, Newt Gingrich in New Hampshire.
	The Chinese are very upset with Taiwan because of the visit of Taiwan's president.
	Oh, the Chinese are really upset.
	They said, quote, a belligerent act A wanton wound inflicted on China, almost calling it an act of war.
	Basically, our State Department said, oh, come on.
	I mean, back to the training, he said, oh, come on.
	You know, it was just a private visit, not a state visit, even if Taiwanese TV portrayed it as a state visit.
	It was not.
	There's more in the news, but what we've had on in the last three hours is so large in its scope that I think that you're going to probably want to comment on that, and I'm going to allow you to do so.
	I'm going to hold some more of this material for the remainder of the show.
	uh... we're getting a late start on just open lines and so start we shall
	now we take you back to the night of june ninth nineteen ninety five
	on our bills somewhere in time uh...
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air, good morning.
	Yeah, good morning, Art.
	I'm calling from KEX Portland.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I was wondering if John Doe Number two is legitimate.
	Do you think the government would put him in the witness protection program and like rat out all his buddies?
	Maybe in the militia?
	Well, you know, how am I going to know the answer to a question like that?
	I have no idea.
	Well, okay.
	It's just something to think about.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	All right.
	This is Eugene from Morgan Hill.
	Now, there was one important thing overlooked.
	Uh, why is the identity or general description of this guy being revealed by this press man that obviously put his life in danger?
	Well, first of all, they have not yet revealed the name of the individual.
	All they've, if you listen to what he said, is they have many witnesses, now yet another witness, who has identified this man as being John Doe number two.
	But nobody's revealed this man's name.
	Only description.
	That's only the description, but it matches, if you listen carefully, the FBI composite photograph.
	And the tattoo, the accent in the photograph, don't you think that would be enough to where if somebody in Oklahoma saw somebody that set that description, they might be asked to stalk them?
	Be asked to what?
	Stalk them.
	Hunt them down and shoot them.
	Well, I would imagine that anybody fitting the description of somebody who might have done the bombing in Oklahoma City has been under damn careful scrutiny.
	That would probably apply to anybody who generally fit the description, and certainly did apply, especially in the early days after the bombing.
	If you heard him describe it, I mean, there were stopping cars with people who even generally fit the description.
	Early on, east of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hey, I don't suppose you saw that news on C-SPAN tonight?
	Um, no sir, I did not.
	Yeah, it was his first speech from, uh, New Hampshire.
	And he did say that it will not be a debate.
	Him and Clinton will still meet somewhere and exchange ideas.
	Well, now that's, you know, that's what I told the, um, the faxer, that it wasn't going to be a debate.
	Somehow, of course, it's getting twisted around to where it is going to be a debate now, supposedly reported by NBC, blah, blah, blah.
	So I don't know.
	I think you're probably right.
	I tend toward leaning toward your version of the story, sir.
	Well, Clinton wants to get this meeting at a senior citizens rally.
	That could get pretty ugly.
	Well, that'd be all right.
	That'd be alright.
	I'd love to see them both in a forum where they... It'd be a setup.
	Well, we'll see.
	Either way, I'm going to look forward to it.
	And as I said, try and catch Newt Gingrich on Sunday on Meet the Press.
	He's a very bright guy.
	Now, maybe he'll fall down on his... He won't live up to his billing.
	But I would say to all of you who want to know about Gingrich, watch him on Meet the Press this Sunday.
	And watch him under pressure and see how he does, and I will be too, and we'll, you know, we'll see what we think.
	I just happen to think Ingrid is a very, very bright guy who would be up to campaigning President Clinton and would take him on and frankly chew him up and spit him out.
	Bob Cartline, you're on the air, hi.
	This is Charlie, liberal in California.
	Yes.
	You know, I look at the Republican field and I get excited.
	Considering you guys think Bill Clinton's so weak, it is an absolutely pathetic field.
	An absolutely pathetic field.
	And then you've got somebody like Newt Gingrich, who has higher negatives, by the way, than Pat Buchanan.
	Oh, you're absolutely correct.
	Imagine that he could... However, Charles... However, Charles, let me stop you.
	Newt Gingrich is a very intelligent, quick, Good debater.
	Do you agree with that?
	I've never seen him in an actual debate.
	I don't know about that, but I'll tell you this much.
	He has no problem saying what he thinks, which I think puts him in Put him in a lot of trouble politically.
	For example, when he said a few weeks ago that he had no problem cutting Medicare by one-third.
	Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the things that I admire about him is that he does say what he thinks.
	Yeah, which in a political election is something you don't want to do.
	I think that he would not match up well with Bill Clinton.
	Never really say what you think of political campaign.
	You must lie to win, right?
	Well, I'm saying you have to do whatever you need to do to win.
	The end justifies the election, right?
	But I mean, you look at it, you've got Dole, who's basically another George Bush, and it's just an absolutely... I think Bill Clinton is going to need to make a mistake, as it is, in order for a Republican to win.
	Well, Charles, I wouldn't rule that one out.
	On this thing with the bombing, I don't know, I think there might be a slight chance that there's something international, but I don't know.
	I just can't see.
	Maybe you can help me on this.
	How would the Iraqis make contact with the militias?
	How would that work exactly?
	all of the well uh... alright rosa mall trying to help you with that how would
	they do that will let us imagine how could that be done gosh that would sure be impossible with it
	there would be no way that in iraqi operative
	could get uh... into america undetected all Oh, well, you know, the borders are like barriers of solid steel, so it's unimaginable that an Iraqi operative could make it across our borders.
	So I guess you're right, Charles, that certainly rules out the possibility there could have been any contact between an American and an Iraqi operative.
	Gosh, Charles, you make such profound arguments.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hey, thanks, Art.
	This is Mike and Madison Cullen.
	Hi, Mike.
	I've been arguing with my co-workers all week about this new thing.
	In fact, I think Janet probably sent you a fax where she told me to do it, but I didn't hear it.
	On this new thing, now, first of all, I'm a Buchanan supporter, just like you.
	Yeah, okay.
	Now, let me ask you, Art, why did you support Buchanan?
	What do you see in Buchanan that makes you feel like he's the best choice?
	Honesty.
	Okay.
	I mean, if you are listing, you know, in order of reasons or things that I like about Buchanan, top of the list is he's honest.
	Okay.
	And how do you feel about his stand on NAFTA and GAF?
	Well, I agreed with his... I supported NAFTA.
	Okay.
	I did not support GAF.
	Okay.
	Now, here's the point that people are making to me, which I think makes some sense.
	The reason I voted for parole last time and the reason I support Buchanan has a lot to do with what I perceive is happening to the American economy and the American social fabric as a result of loss of good jobs.
	Put in a nutshell, you are supporting isolationism.
	Well, okay, for purposes of this discussion right now, I'm going to say yes, I am.
	Okay?
	Well, I think it's fair.
	I'd like to modify that sometime, but we probably don't have the time.
	But I agree with the basic principle that if you've got a one-factory town, and you move that factory into Indonesia, you're going to have social problems in that town in no time.
	And that's the point Buchanan makes.
	All right, you now, as president.
	All right, for a second.
	Yeah.
	For the sake of the conversation.
	That little factory we're talking about?
	Well, I think I know where you're leading with this.
	It's a fair question, and I think you can't do anything.
	to go mexico wherever uh... factories get ready to move
	and your president what do you do
	i think i know where you're leading with the or is it is a fair question i mean
	it is a fair question and and and i think you can't do anything
	i think that you know you can't just prohibit a factory from moving
	that's right you know okay and i think you're quite fair
	The alternative point is don't encourage the factory to move.
	Now, I'm with you there, and these little quasi-government organizations that seem to be encouraging American factories to move elsewhere ought to be shot in the can.
	Right.
	Well, you see, the business-as-usual climate in Washington is not going to change significantly under Newt, and what I mean by that is We've got to take into account the media blitz that's going to occur if Newt runs for president.
	They're going to link him as strongly as they possibly can with the multinational corporations, with GOPAC.
	They're going to smear him to death.
	I know.
	And he is a brilliant man.
	I know, sir.
	You're absolutely right, but do you doubt for one second that if Pat Buchanan, with political miracles on his side, caught fire, became I think you're absolutely right on that.
	they do a job on Pat Buchanan that would curl your hair. I think I think you're
	absolutely right on that but but what I what I fear will happen is that as soon
	as Newt decides to run, Ross Perot is going to be able to get up on a stump and
	proclaim, look all the things I said about talked about in the last election
	have occurred.
	I'm right.
	And here we've got two internationalists running for president.
	The American people do not have a choice.
	They have no protection against this plan which seems to be trashing their economy.
	Look, I've got to go.
	It was a very good call.
	You're absolutely correct.
	I'm sure that that would be Perot's reaction.
	The end result might be we'd have three running.
	And another likely 43% victory.
	It could easily occur, sir.
	Could easily occur.
	God, what a nightmare, huh?
	So I don't know.
	All I say is watch the man, Gingrich, Sunday.
	See what you think of him yourself.
	We're in a long period now of comparing and looking at men and trying to make decisions and that's what this is all about.
	So that's an opportunity to see him.
	See him for yourself.
	See what you think.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Yeah, hi, Joe from San Clemente.
	Our country is a national, when I say Iraqi national, I looked it up in a dictionary, and according to it, it means you've got the protection of the fed country.
	Well, why don't we call them an Iraqi expatriate?
	Would that be better?
	Actually, if you want to know the truth, I don't know what his status is, so I don't know what's going on.
	Well, the people who are involved with the World Trade Center, You know, they had worked with our government over in Pakistan.
	I guess they came out there to trial, and they were called national.
	Is this the same situation?
	Well, all right, sir.
	I'm going to satisfy you and not argue with you about it and just say they identified him, according to Mike, according to the KFOR broadcast, as the suspect they believe to be John Doe No.
	2.
	As an Iraqi The former Iraqi soldier who fought on the side of Saddam Hussein in the Desert Storm War.
	Now, what we call him, you call him anything you want.
	That is, as much of the definition as I have been led to understand, is the case.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Yes, this is the... Turn your radio off, please.
	That's number one.
	Yeah, this is the shadow.
	Calling from where?
	Shut up.
	Citrus Heights, California.
	Okay.
	Yeah, you heard of the... Now, I'm just joking with you a little bit, but you've got to understand that some people think how ridiculous this Iraqi thing is.
	For example, you've seen the TV show, Mork & Mindy?
	Oh, yes.
	I'm sure you have.
	Long ago.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And anyway, you know, Mork was from Oaxaca.
	Some people might think, oh, gee, if you can stretch this to Iraq, okay, Perhaps this guy is actually a space alien from the planet Orchid.
	You know, there's no proof that he's... Ah, he faded down somehow.
	How did that happen?
	Oh, I like this hint.
	Sometimes you just can't control this hint.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Yeah, good morning, Art.
	Good morning to you, sir.
	Where are you?
	My name is Rick.
	I'm calling from Palos Verdes, California.
	Hi, Rick.
	Listen, I've heard the whole show, okay?
	Yes, sir.
	And I've got something very important to share with you.
	I heard the lady, also, from Oklahoma City.
	Yes, sir.
	And, uh, you know, remember I told you about this gentleman out here, the former FBI agent, Mr. Gunderson?
	Yeah.
	Oh, yes.
	Uh-huh.
	All right, now, this is very important.
	In that same article, Art, of May the 15th in the Spotlight... Yes?
	There's a bulletin, and here's a quote from Mr. Gunderson, which he got from, uh, No, please, please don't.
	No, sir, please don't quote us.
	Just give us a sense of what he said.
	It's from a federal criminal investigator who is working on a bombing of Oklahoma City.
	Yeah, oh, okay.
	And this gentleman stated that the bombing was an enhanced reflection wave detonation with a duplex charge.
	All right, thank you.
	Enhanced reflection detonation.
	That's right.
	That means that it was, in effect, a shaped charge.
	And I've seen diagrams of what it took to shape that charge.
	We had a lot of discussions about how very little it takes, and if you know what you're doing, how you can essentially shape a charge of those large canisters full of that stuff, wrapped with the cord that was, in effect, the detonator and all the rest of it.
	And it was how you laid them out.
	We went through that, and I don't want to rehash it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning, Arthur.
	Rick from Lincoln, Nebraska.
	Hello, Rick.
	How are you doing?
	How's Lincoln?
	Oh, fine, fine.
	A little wet, but isn't everybody?
	Are we still on the air?
	Oh, well, I hope so.
	Okay, we're off air.
	Too bad, because I enjoy listening to you.
	I guess what I want to talk to you about, I've seen on TV, they always show that picture of McVeigh.
	As far as I know, that's the only known photograph of him since well it was video of him you'll recall on
	uh... under arrest for and when they transferred a meal
	i did don on the at time when i think that the other day for that
	i'm keen time that it reminded me of our water bed
	of our well-liked or a thank you i think the whole situation
	in in some ways is reminiscent of that and probably as time grows in the
	apology grows if we don't ever get to the bottom of all this people begin
	Last call, everybody!
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	All the leaves are brown, and the sky is gray.
	I've been 401 on a winter's day.
	If I didn't tell her, I could live forever.
	Coast to Coast AM, June 9th, 1995.
	Midnight at the oasis, send your camel to bed.
	Shadows painting our faces, tracing the romance in our heads.
	Heaven's holding our heads, we've been shining just for us.
	You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
	From America's high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Cactus is our friend.
	And no matter what I've done, as my weekend begins, I try to launch it with Maria Moldauer.
	It just reminds me of the beautiful, Peaceful place in which I live.
	Good morning everybody.
	Faxes ranging all over the place from this art.
	Thanks for wasting the entire night on a government attempt to switch the focus as to the culpability from the Oklahoma City bombing away from the government to a collection of patsies.
	You'll probably censor this one, just like you did my backs of last night.
	If so, maybe we should call you G-Man.
	Government man, for those not to know, signed Ichabod from Como.
	You can't get to me, Ichabod.
	Not this morning.
	Not even from Seattle.
	Because I'm determined to feel good.
	And anyway, uh, so he thinks that I'm, uh, I am Ichabod.
	I'm, I'm CIA.
	Didn't you know that?
	I've never, never, never bothered to deny that.
	No Sherman-esque statements from me about not being in the CIA.
	If you want to thank Ichabod, be my guest.
	And then there's Art.
	I've always felt that there was something funny about the Oklahoma bombing.
	It seemed to me that they were quick to blame the militia.
	You may be on to something with this, and I hope you keep it on until the truth comes out.
	We at least owe that to the people that were killed and injured on that day.
	Sandy from Kogoland.
	That's San Diego.
	So, that's the range.
	If you'd like to make a comment of your own, that's why we have something called the telephone.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Oh, I'm so shocked to have gotten two.
	I understand.
	Where are you, pray tell?
	I'm in Merced, California, KYOS.
	KYOS, yes ma'am.
	Fascinating program this morning.
	I have a couple questions.
	Will tonight's program be rerun tomorrow night, do you suppose?
	No, tonight's program will be rerun on Sunday night, Monday morning.
	Oh, good.
	And do you have any stations?
	I want to phone some people to listen to this.
	In Washington State, around Vancouver, Longview, Kelso areas?
	Well, sure we do.
	We have KVI.
	It's kind of a strange setup.
	Between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock, we have KVI in Seattle, 570 on the dial.
	And then, beginning at 1 o'clock in the morning, we have KOMO.
	50,000 watt radio station, 1,000 on the dial in Seattle, and that can be heard right on down to the Mexican border, so that pretty much ought to cover it.
	Okay.
	I have one question.
	What do you mean by wildcard?
	Well, you know, it's just something to call those lines.
	Now, I lived in Las Vegas for the better part of a decade, and you understand the reference to wildcard and Las Vegas and gaming and all the rest of it.
	Not really.
	You don't?
	You don't know what a wild card is when you play poker?
	I guess it means anything.
	Am I wrong?
	I don't know.
	I'm not much of a card player.
	Well, okay, then I'm not sure exactly how to explain it.
	It just means, it's just a name.
	It's just a name.
	It was kind of a take off on gaming, gambling.
	Well, who can call on wild card is what I want to know.
	Anybody who wants to take a chance to get in.
	Oh.
	That's what I guessed, but I just wasn't sure.
	Alright, well, you did well.
	Okay, thank you very much.
	Thank you for the call and have a good morning.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Luke from St.
	Louis.
	Hi, Luke.
	You were talking about the coming presidential election a few minutes ago.
	Oh, yes, indeed.
	I think it's a shame in this age of fast communications that We still let these two political clubs get together and pick for us Twiddle-D and Twiddle-Dum to vote for.
	And in addition, let Twiddle-D and Twiddle-Dum tell us who we're going to get for Vice President when in the Constitution.
	I believe if you look very closely, you'll see that we are entitled to vote for the President and the Vice President.
	Well, you are!
	I mean, the parties nominate them, and through the party process, And frequently by choice of the candidate.
	You know, they submit the name for vice president, he goes through the nomination process just like the presidential candidate does.
	Oh yes, I understand that.
	But I think we should have nationwide primaries where each state, if you win a state, you get one vote.
	So that they don't have to campaign in five to seven major states for election centers to get elected because then they're the president of New York, Texas, California, the other popular states, Illinois, whatever they are.
	But if we had a method for electing our President and Vice President that would be a popular vote, no electoral college, I think that we'd be a lot better off rather than let these two clubs get together.
	Yeah, well, two clubs.
	Well, you know, they are just the ones that happen to be supported, sir.
	There is nothing that stops you or anybody else from getting Another club together.
	And indeed, Mr. Ross Perot did in essence almost exactly that.
	Or, you know, you can run without club altogether.
	I mean, that's why they call it America.
	At least part of the reason.
	First-time caller line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Oh, hi.
	Hi.
	How are you?
	Let me turn my phone off.
	Well, don't turn your phone off or we can't talk.
	That's good.
	You got me excited.
	Well, I understand.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Woodinville, Washington.
	Woodinville.
	Yes, indeed.
	And I was wanting to bring up the question as to why the FBI allowed them to come out public with their information, but then did not buy to back them up.
	Well, first of all, it's fair to say that Even the FBI, we would hope, still does, and I believe does, respect the First Amendment.
	Secondly, if you listen, Mike said that they laid it out for the FBI, and the FBI said, we can't confirm or deny it, but you know, you go ahead with your report, we're not saying don't run it.
	So, you know, you can either draw conclusions from that, or not.
	Well, in other words, they could go ahead and publish it, but they were just hanging out in the air.
	The FBI didn't either endorse or say don't run it or, you know, took really no position at all.
	But I guess, you know, you could read between the lines if you were a reporter and you laid it out and they said go ahead.
	You could then, I suppose, think many things.
	You could think Well, either they're saying run it because it's true, or because they think it might help flush somebody out of the position they're in, or make them reveal themselves, or pack their bags and take off for Buenos Aires, or whatever.
	You know, who knows?
	I'm sorry, I don't have those answers.
	Well, the fact that it's not, you know, that it's not being picked up by the general publications... Well, we're now beginning to see, apparently we're beginning to see that it is starting to be picked up.
	Maybe we're at the beginning of the dam breaking, I don't know.
	It just seems like, you know, most other things come out just really, really fast.
	Oh, you're so correct.
	This would be almost like that the general media, the controlled media, has been told to, you know, lay off of this and for some reason either to discredit this or maybe to Uh, maybe the only ones that would come out of that case would be, quote, like the talk show hosts in another effort to discredit them.
	Well, you know, in the end, all I would say is life is such a damn mystery, isn't it?
	I've got to run, ma'am.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much for the call and have a very good morning.
	Take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995 on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	I'm going to be talking about the story of the man who was the first man to walk on the moon.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi Art, this is Joe in San Francisco.
	Hi Joe, how you doing?
	I'm the Newt fan and interactive media guy here.
	Yes sir.
	First of all, Newt Gingrich Being the Newt fan, I have to say.
	I can imagine you wear a lot of camouflage clothing as you walk the streets of San Fran, huh?
	No, but I don't broadcast it anyway.
	Well, except now.
	Yes, that's right.
	I'm broadcasting.
	But listen, he's going to run.
	There's no doubt about it.
	But he's going to find out.
	This is brilliant, the strategy to try to get him side-by-side with Clinton, because he'll see right away how he's going to play.
	Well, I'm sure you're listening to the reports.
	Have you heard the word debate used?
	Well, you know, people in reporting it, but no, not debate.
	I've heard Newt say it's not a debate.
	He just wants to talk Medicare.
	Well, we could hope it would turn into a debate.
	Now, if it did, that would be something to behold.
	Oh, yes, it would.
	And I think something is going to happen.
	They've just got to find some sort of neutral ground and they'll talk about Medicare.
	First of all, if he runs, which I think he will, he's going to win.
	There's no doubt about it.
	Well, as you know, I share that view with you, but we are in a distinct minority.
	Now, I read the polls like everybody else does.
	Here's why, though.
	Here's why all these Republicans are saying no.
	It's because they like him where he is.
	And half of them say that.
	That accounts for about half, or I agree.
	But here's what's going to happen.
	As these things get vetoed, as Bob Dole drops the ball, people are going to say, wait a minute, wait a minute, we like what he's doing, but As it moves higher up, it's just getting, we like the, first of all, the polls are very high for every one of the items in the Contract America.
	60, 70, 80, and when they connect, they make the connection, that the guys higher up are stopping it, and Newt's the one responsible for getting it going, I think that we'll see a change.
	Alright, alright, I'm going to record what you've said almost as a prediction.
	Okay.
	And we'll see how it comes out.
	Alright, Art.
	Alright?
	You said something about the internet earlier this week?
	Yes, oh yes.
	Can I say a quick word on that?
	Yes.
	I'm glad you don't want to see regulation, but first of all, it's impossible to regulate it.
	You can't.
	It's like regulating a phone call.
	They would have to go snip the wire.
	There's no way.
	It's kind of like the gun control, only much worse.
	I just cut you off for a second to demonstrate there is a way.
	I mean, I can throw a switch and boom, you're gone.
	You know, there's lots of people with lots of switches, so it can be done.
	What we should say is it shouldn't be done.
	They would have to snip the borders.
	I mean, even if they went and confiscated hard drives all over the country... All right, well, look, I've got a hold of it at that point.
	My demonstration was it can be done.
	Whether it should be done, that's, of course, of a different color.
	I mean, there are going to be some rules.
	You can't use the Internet to conspire to commit a crime any more than you can use telephones to conspire to commit a crime, or anything else.
	So that much regulation is in order, of course.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art Bell.
	This is Charles.
	I'm in Honolulu.
	Hello, Charles.
	How you doing?
	Fine.
	I have a question.
	You know, we were talking about the guy from Iraq, I suppose.
	How did he get a visa to get from Iraq to America?
	Sir, you're asking me a question I don't have the answer to.
	I will tell you this.
	I believe that at the very beginning of the Desert Storm War, we dropped a lot of leaflets behind the lines of the Iraqi soldiers telling them to throw up their hands, throw down their weapons, and give up.
	And we made certain promises.
	And I believe on that basis, a number of Iraqi soldiers have indeed made their way to the U.S.
	as immigrants.
	So, I don't know that that's the answer to the question.
	It's just my guess.
	Right.
	Yeah, I remember dropping them, the leaflets, part of SIA, and that's pretty interesting.
	The other question that I had was, yesterday, or I guess a couple days ago on your show, we were talking about the reason that the government had allowed the news media to broadcast about The downed pilot in Bosnia.
	Yes.
	And I found it hard to believe that they would even let something like that out.
	Well, that makes two of us.
	And it's not just that it was let out, sir.
	The Pentagon made public the information that they were getting this signal.
	And it was to me... He was captured.
	I know.
	It was... Which is amazing.
	I know.
	You mean rescued.
	It's just... I agree with this caller.
	Nothing short of amazing.
	Nothing short of amazing.
	Now, the one aspect of it that I have not compared, and I haven't looked carefully at, is he was rescued about 20 miles from Bihach, not more than about five miles from where he came down.
	Or maybe it was even closer than that.
	Maybe it was 500 feet.
	I can't remember.
	It's very close.
	And I'm trying to recall exactly where the Pentagon had specified they were getting their signals.
	Now, maybe that was intentionally to mislead The Serbs, with regard to where the signals were coming from.
	So I would need to carefully compare what they originally said, and I don't know that I can do that anymore.
	Maybe one of you can.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Yeah, good morning.
	I've been trying for two hours to get on here.
	Well, now you've made it.
	Yeah, my name is Joe.
	I'm calling from San Diego.
	Hi, Joe.
	Hey, listen here.
	I notice, I've been listening every time some of these people call in.
	Talk about this fella, Ted L. Gunderson.
	You cut him off the air.
	Well, no, I just... when it gets to allegations that are not established yet... Well, I read that article, too.
	These men are talking about the spotlight and the... Yeah, I know what... Look, I get the spotlight, sir, so I know what's in the spotlight.
	Well, this guy Ichabod's accusing me of you being a government agent.
	I think if you don't have this guy Gunderson on it, that you are a government agent.
	All right, well, fine.
	Go ahead.
	You think it, too.
	You know, I don't care.
	I don't care.
	You're going to tell me if I don't have some guess on I'm a government agent?
	I don't care.
	You want to think it?
	Think it!
	Think I'm CIA.
	Above Top Secret.
	Level 47.3.
	You know?
	Think it.
	And ask me if I care what you think.
	If you want to think I'm a government agent, or if Ichabod wants to think I'm a government agent, I'm fun.
	Imagine I am.
	And imagine I'm sitting here with voice prints of everything you just said.
	Imagine.
	I sound like John Lennon.
	West of the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Hello there.
	My name is Marie, and I'm from Seattle.
	Hi, Marie from Seattle.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing fine.
	What I called about was starting Sunday here at Como Country, they're going to start carrying Dreamland.
	Oh, thank you for saying that.
	I would have forgotten.
	Beginning this Sunday, Dreamland switches in its entirety to KOMO.
	1,000 on the radio dial.
	50,000 watts.
	7 o'clock Sunday evening.
	I think it's... Is it going to be 7?
	Pardon me?
	I say, is it going to be on at 7 o'clock?
	Yes, it is.
	All right.
	Well, then you just told the world.
	Well, thank you.
	Thank you, dear, for mentioning it.
	And it's going to be George Knapp.
	Don't miss Dreamland this coming Sunday.
	George Knapp, the reporter who broke the whole thing about Area 51 in the first place, produced UFOs, the best evidence.
	George Knapp, who knows a lot about what's going on down in Russia, will be our guest on Dreamland.
	And yes, Dreamland switches in its entirety to K-O-M-O, Seattle, beginning this Sunday.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	How you doing, Art?
	Okay, where are you?
	Sacramento.
	Welcome to the show.
	I wanted to ask you, last night was a bit of a discussion about the American flag and how people are burning it, the possibility of passing legislation against it, and then of course you had a kind of common sense solution that people wouldn't allow it to be done anyway.
	I believe that, yes.
	Let me ask you this, what's the proper procedure or protocol for dealing with a flag that you drop on the ground?
	uh...
	you've heard it and what you've got well if they don't like his pattern of the people that look like
	a lot like a shattered
	or if a flag is in disrepair then it is properly destroyed
	uh... using uh... that exact method And so I very well understand your point, sir.
	But the acts are not the same, are they?
	That is, burning the flag in protest or because you're angry or whatever, and burning it because it has in some manner been tattered or defaced.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Christopher.
	I'm calling from Dawson Creek, D.C.
	Dawson Creek, British Columbia.
	Tell everybody where Dawson Creek is.
	Dawson Creek is mile zero of the Alaska Highway.
	It's about a thousand kilometers north of Vancouver.
	About a thousand miles north of Vancouver.
	No, a thousand kilometers.
	Kilometers.
	So you're about six hundred miles.
	Yeah, you're, in other words, I went through Dawson Creek.
	Oh, really?
	Oh, I've been up and down the Alcan Trail three times.
	Oh, wow.
	And I did it back when it was real gravel.
	Oh, really?
	Wow.
	Anyway, so I know where you are up there in the middle of nowhere.
	Oh, wow.
	What's going on?
	Anyways, what I was calling about is to just let you know that I can pick you up every night on KOMO.
	Oh, well, that's because K, that's what I'm trying to tell everybody, K.O.
	Moe goes from the Mexican border, probably to the North Pole.
	Wow.
	Oh, that's phenomenal.
	Like, pretty well every night I listen to you and I just love your program.
	Well, it's good to know that you're up there in Dawson Creek listening.
	Yeah.
	And I hope, I hope when January and February comes along, you'll call us from Dawson Creek And tell us how cold it's getting tonight.
	Oh, I will, when it's like minus 40 Fahrenheit.
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	Listen, um, from Dawson Creek, uh, in British Columbia, you're gonna get to tell the world of this morning goodnight, because we're out of time, so... Oh, goodnight, everyone.
	Goodnight, everyone.
	I guess that says it.
	Dawson Creek.
	Look it up on a map.
	Alright, everybody, that's it.
	What a night.
	If you're able to stay tuned for the repeat next two hours, don't miss it on a bet.
	See you Sunday on Dreamland.
	Monday night, Tuesday morning, back with the syndicated program.

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