Art Bell’s 1995 episode examines the Oklahoma City bombings, spotlighting KFOR Channel 4’s investigation into "John Doe No. 2," a Middle Eastern-looking suspect with a tattoo and seen near the April 19 blast in a brown pickup. Eyewitnesses, including FBI-interviewed victims, linked him to Tim McVeigh, though the FBI later withdrew alerts about similar vehicles. Mike, a private investigator, claims triple-sourced evidence—surveillance footage and photo lineups—was shared with the bureau, which neither confirmed nor denied it. Despite media silence from NBC/CNN and skepticism over Iraqi ties, Bell insists on uncovering truth over political narratives, framing the episode as a clash between justice and institutional opacity amid election-year distractions. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, and welcome to another edition of Coast to Coast AM Live Talk Radio Throughout the Night Time.
I said live, because we're here right now, while others recycle, regurgitate, repeat relentlessly.
We are here live, once again proving why talk radio is much better live than repeated.
Now, as you all know, for the last few days, my blood pressure has been high.
We've been following a story in Oklahoma City very closely, which was broken by Channel 4, KFOR television in Oklahoma City.
And my assumption must be this morning that some of you don't know what we're talking about.
And so I'm briefly going to take you through the chronology.
And then I've got a guest.
A very unusual, very interesting guest.
It began this way with a couple of people who sent me faxes, shocking faxes.
And I'm going to read you the content of one.
Dear Art, a lead story on Oklahoma City's KFOR News Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock, this is now a couple days ago, was a report revealing the identity of John Doe No. 2.
Reporter Gaina Davis has worked on this story since one week after the tragedy.
Davis presented witnesses who wished to remain shadowed, voices disguised, that sort of thing, who saw McVay and John Doe No. 2 several days before the attack.
One witness claims the pair drank beer at her bar in northwest Oklahoma City.
She says John Doe No. 2 spoke with an Iranian-Iraqi accent.
They spoke an Arab language of some sort to each other.
Further research by Channel 4 identified John Doe No. 2 through surveillance photos obtained by local businesses near northwest Pent and Penn, about two and a half blocks from where the AP Murray building used to be.
The report showed some three shots of John Doe No.
2, but scrambled his face as he has not yet been arrested or charged.
Research done by KFOR has revealed John Doe No.
2's name and nationality, but they didn't release it at the FBI's request.
The report did say the man was an Iraqi national who served in the Iraqi military during the Gulf War, desert storm, under Saddam Hussein.
The report also said the man is and has been under FBI surveillance and that he has a tattoo on his left arm.
Thought you'd like to know?
Well, that set off, as you might imagine, a firestorm of interest in the story on this program, certainly.
I got another fact saying essentially the same thing.
Then we began trying to do what to do, verify the story.
Through our program, excuse me, news director at WKY, our affiliate, WKY in Oklahoma City, we confirmed the essential details of the story, that it was essentially as we had heard that it was reported.
Then began a long questioning of why, in God's name, this story was not picked up by the parent network, by other networks and news outlets around the country.
And for two days, we've been wallowing in that great mystery.
Well, not that it's all going to be solved, but hang on, we've got a guest coming.
A little more chronology.
Meantime, my network, hard at work up from Oregon, also contacted the television station, spoke to several people at KFOR, and all of them, to the person, said, no.
Jaina will not, under any circumstances, do an interview.
At this point, what is a mother to do?
Well, a mother begins imagining all kinds of wild things, like it might be an FBI plant story.
It might.
It still might.
I don't know.
Then, tonight comes a fax, the following.
According to KFOR Channel 4 TV in Oklahoma City, they have identified John.
Excuse me.
I'm reading another copy of one of the original faxes I got.
This is the one that just came in.
It's entitled More on John Doe No. 2.
As a result of Wednesday's broadcast, a new witness has now come forward to KFOR.
This witness places John Doe number two four blocks from the bomb site seconds after the blast speeding away in the brown pickup truck.
The witness said she ran from her office after hearing the blast and was almost run down by the brown Chevy pickup.
She got a real clear view of the driver, John Doe number two.
She describes his look as very angry and full of hate.
After she learned of the bombing, she felt this man was involved.
This witness says she recognized the man in the KFOR report, even though his identity was hidden by computer graphics.
Since Wednesday, she has been with KFOR and has identified the pictures of John Doe number two that KFOR has.
The witness also said she had been interviewed by the FBI the day of the bombing, but when asked if she saw a tattoo on the upper left arm, she told the FBI no.
KFOR then showed some full-body pictures their reporter had taken of John Doe number two.
In one of them, he is wearing a tank top.
And when they zoomed into his upper left arm, you can clearly see the tattoo.
That's from Craig in Lawton Ogloma.
So there is everything as I had it up until a little before broadcast time.
And I've got, you know, a million other facts about this.
CNN was aware of the story, waiting for confirmation.
AP Wire Service and others waiting for confirmation.
ABC New York not aware but looking into it.
Local NBC affiliate was interested in another town, but they also are investigating and on and on and on.
So we seem to be the driving force behind this story now, going beyond KFOR.
Others, I understand, have touched on it as well, including Chuck Harter now and Lol Potty and some others.
So the story is now beginning to break out of the first stages.
There you've got a kind of a chronology.
And I thought, oh boy, this sounds like, really sounds like a plan.
I mean, what television station would not want their story told?
It's an important story.
Very important.
A half hour before airtime, I got a call from somebody who will, for our purposes, we will call Mike.
Not his real name, but we'll call him Mike.
He is a private investigator.
He says a contract employee of Channel 4 Television, KFOR.
And he's here to talk to us about all of this this morning.
So let me take a brief break.
And when we come back, the private investigator doing the work that no doubt in part, or maybe even in a large part, along with Jaina Davis, resulted in the story that now is beginning to catch fire.
In a moment, Mike.
unidentified
Mike.
Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
We were taking surveillance tape of his daily activities, see what he did, who he associated with, things of that nature.
Okay.
Once we, and we kind of stumbled onto him in a kind of ironic way.
But anyway, once we took the videotapes of this gentleman, we were looking at him, and Jaina Davis and myself were looking at the videotapes, and we kind of got a chill because of the look.
Our possible John Doe No. 2 has very striking features.
Very striking features.
And we thought, well, we'd have to go on with this.
We're trying to help in any way we can, help solve this crime if we can.
If not, we'd like to be told we're wasting our time and get on down the road because we both have other things to do if that not be the case.
Second thing I'd like to correct with you is you had mentioned an individual, a young lady, that went on camera in disguise where she had seen McVeigh and our John Doe number lookalike in a bar drinking beer.
Correct.
You were misinformed when they told you that McVeigh and this John Doe number two lookalike were observed speaking a foreign language together.
That is not correct.
The correct answer to that would be this John Doe number two lookalike asked the waitress a question of whether she was married.
She couldn't understand what he said.
She asked him to repeat it.
He repeated it.
He spoke with very broken English.
At no time.
Right.
She was from Southern California.
She knows Hispanic.
This gentleman kind of looks Hispanic.
It was not Hispanic.
And during the interview, she stated it was the same as she heard during news reports from the Gulf War.
Within minutes after the bombing, one of my investigators taped all the police radio traffic on scanners.
Within minutes after the bombing, and that was reported on Channel 4 also, they were looking for a brown Chevy pickup truck, tinted windows, bug shield, with at least two Middle Eastern-looking males.
I remember a report, maybe that's further downline, that two Pakistanis, I believe it was Pakistanis, were detained and questioned by the FBI for a period of time and then let go.
i don't like i recall having a lot of checks is somewhere they've got a A gentleman from Texas was questioned, detained, then released by the FBI.
Around here, it was kind of went crazy for a little bit because anybody that had dark skin and drove a brown, could have been a little car, was getting pulled over and questioned public hysteria.
We had multiple white witnesses that have been through lineups.
And you're talking, I did the lineups myself, you're talking pictures of at least 45 to 50 pictures, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, of various individuals.
These pictures, on their own, non-prejudiced, on camera, picked out our John Doe No.
All right, Mike, I want you to hold your story right there for us.
We've got to take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
You won't hear anything for a few minutes.
Don't let it worry you.
We're going to break here at the bottom of the hour.
My guest is somebody who calls himself Mike, a private investigator who worked with and continues to work with Janey Davis, the reporter who broke this incredible story from Oklahoma City.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
why is jaina not doing interviews now is it just her personal choice uh is she just doesn't want to do interviews in other words it's her story and it's your story i guess and um you would think that she would want to get it out and and get it out accurately and And I'll accept that as your reason for being here.
The big question in our mind is once this is resolved with a yes, it could be him, or yes, we've arrested him, or yes, we've cleared him, we've questioned him, then it's over.
It can go either way.
We're still kind of in the hanging stages.
As far as her personal reasons, or maybe it's the news channel reasons, I'm not in the decision-making part as to her personal or whatever it is.
I tell you, in my personal opinion, they're very credible.
In my professional opinion, they're excellent witnesses.
Just for instance, the young lady that was on the, I'm sure you haven't seen it, but the young lady that came on tonight's show at 10 o'clock show after the NBA playoff year, she came to the news channel, she saw it.
If you saw the picture of the John No.
2 look like, you would understand how she picked him out, even though his face was mosaiced out.
All right, then, several, it's hard to know which direction to go.
to go.
First, why, I guess my first question is, the FBI seemed inclined to pick up anybody early on who even, as you pointed out, remotely drove the sort of vehicle or whatever.
I imagine in the wisdom of the FBI that they're probably doing an in-depth investigation in which they feel it, you know, safe to maybe find out who his associates might be or what have you.
I think there's underlying factors here that you're still not made aware of and the public's still not made aware of it and won't be, that I, Gina, are aware of.
Now, what do you think, and this is just a guess, I'm sure, on your part, Mike, or maybe you know, KFOR is a reputable mainstream Channel 4 NBC news affiliate there in the city where the bombing took place.
KFYI Radio, CNN, and of course NBC Newsfeed, and there's also been calls by, and I won't name, but several high-ranking senators on the Hill have called.
And I wonder if some of the same forces are at work here in the media as are at work, or I suspected were at work in the FBI's hesitation to go out and arrest this man, and that is the media's reluctance to, in effect, say, oops.
All I can say from my experience in this is it takes a lot of nerve.
It takes both from an individual all the way up to a news channel, a news station.
KF4R TV in Oklahoma City, the NBC affiliate, just swept number one across the board in Oklahoma, in the Oklahoma City market.
So they're number one without a question and with definite definition and they're number one standing.
So it took a lot of nerve and the detail that had to go into this, the second sourcing, it's remarkable.
And the majority of the witnesses we have, both on camera and the ones that just are too scared to go even with their voices and face in disguise, a number of them have been interviewed by the FBI.
But you have to remember, most of the interviews came within hours or within a day or so of the bombing.
The first videotape I took of this John Doe No. 2 lookalike wasn't until April 24th, which is five days after the bombing.
So at that time, they wouldn't have the stills and the videos we provided to produce in a photo lineup.
Art, if I knew, I wouldn't tell you, nor I could I tell you, but I can tell you this, everything we give, every videotape we get, it is requested from us by the FBI, and we voluntarily turn it into the FBI.
I can assure you that we have not been told we're in the wrong.
All the FBI can neither confirm nor deny because it is an active investigation, and we question them no more on that.
Just something that needs to be, I need to let you know.
And as far as validity, as far as credibility, each photo lineup that we did with these individuals, each photo lineup was taped from the beginning, the moment we started talking to them, through the whole setup.
Can you characterize for me, now obviously, I mean, here you are delivering some very heavy information to the FBI.
Even though they're pretty stoic guys, I know quite a few agents myself, and they're pretty stoic, you must have been able to discern some sort of reaction from them from surprise to great interest to no interest to, we'll take this information only if we have to.
I mean, characterize for me, if you would, the way they communicated with you.
Basically, any contact you might have had with the FBI.
When I call, they're there.
I have no problems getting them on the phone.
When I leave a message or Dana leaves a message, they're back with us within 15, 20 minutes, probably max.
They're kind to us.
They're nice.
Anything we have, we give to them.
They ask if we have anything.
We'll tell them we're going to get this.
If, for instance, one of, we were asked if we could place our John Doe No. 2 lookalike with McVeigh at the onset, towards the beginning stages of the investigation.
We said, well, we'll let you know as we go.
Well, we called them up and said, we now have witnesses that can place John Doe No. 2 look-alike with McVeigh.
Basically, we contacted them and said, not only have we placed them with McVay, now we have placed them with inside, driving a Brown Chevy pickup by a credible witness that was within, as she put it, I believe, four to six feet, her face to his face, as he turned a corner driving that car, John Doe Dumber II lookalike did, and remembered the features of him.
And if you saw the man, if you saw the stills, if you saw the video, his features, you would not forget.
He is a very angry-looking man, and that is how she remembered him.
At the time of the bombing, my own attorney, my friends, people have business downtown.
At the time of the bombing, time stopped downtown.
People stopped the cars in the middle of the road with no movement.
Everybody kind of froze and kind of panicked to get out of buildings.
According to this eyewitness, credible, very credible eyewitness, the one that spotted him in the car, he was the only vehicle.
What stuck out in her mind is everybody has a bewildered, scared look coming out, and all vehicles stop traffic, okay?
He was the only vehicle, this vehicle that he was observed driving, or she spotted him driving, she identified him driving, was the only vehicle on the road moving and was going at a high rate of speed, was not looking at Wonderment, but was looking at her and made eye contact and kept eye contact as he came around the corner and was going at a high rate of speed.
And according to her testimony, which was the whole interview, everything was taped from start to finish, so there's no question on what was spoken between whatever, you know, was what hit her is, why are you so angry?
And where are you going so fast?
And there's a problem here.
There's an obvious problem.
And that's what her own words, her own, you know, information she volunteered to us on her feelings.
That's not his real name, and he's the private investigator, a subcontractor, employee of Channel 4 television, KFOR, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
And he's here telling us about the story that he's been working on, he says, with Jaina, who is the reporter who broke all this in Oklahoma City.
It's a big story.
And in a lot of ways, we're just getting started.
I'm going to try and take care of the commercial continuity right here at the beginning so we can shoot straight through.
unidentified
Oh.
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Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
Governments won't do that.
And the reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
Absolutely not.
You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
My guest is Mike, a private investigator, a subcontract employee for Channel 4 Television, KFOR, the station that has broken the story about John Doe number two.
Last hour, we got a graphic description of how he's collected the evidence, the steps that Mike has gone through, and so here he is once again.
I assume that they're taking the information we give them and doing their own investigation and doing what they feel is right and what under the law they have to do.
All we have to go by is the APBs they've put out, the information they've put out.
There was the initial composite drawing of John Doe No. 2.
Then it was the secondary composite drawing of John Doe No.
2, and the looks changed a little bit.
Then we came up, or the FBI came up with the composite drawing of the profile, which, to me, makes a lot of sense because we have been able to confirm that there is actual surveillance tape from the buildings, the surrounding buildings.
You would state your reason for going public on this, or coming on the program with me, is because you are dumbfounded at the fact the FBI has not yet made any moves, or you want to force the issue, or...
The reason I went public with you is this simple fact.
We heard of comments made on the show with people not knowing or not in the know and making assumptions.
And if the story is going to be told to whatever extent it can be told, at least let the facts come out so you know firsthand so there is no questions.
I'm very careful.
I don't say anything I shouldn't say.
And to let you know, look, if people want to talk about it, it's America.
These are Americans that died in this building.
There were kids.
There were mothers, fathers.
That's right.
And bottom line is the truth has to come out, period.
And to be completely honest with you, if I'm on the right track and if I am on the wrong track, I put a lot of time, effort, sweat, fear.
You know, if this is true, if this gentleman we do have on surveillance tape ends up by some chance being John Doe No.
2, the fear factor just increased a thousand fold because we've been dealing with somebody at that point who could have done such a terrible atrocity to America and to America itself.
I'd be lying to you for the simple fact that, of course, we're fearful.
This is the worst terrorist attack on American soil in history.
And to think that a reporter and a PI, if it turns out our situation or our investigation be the investigation that breaks this thing, and our guy ends up being arrested for it, the FBI might have eventually got it, but they wouldn't have got it without us at this point, I don't feel.
So we would be kind of the catalyst causing the investigation.
And again, when you went to the FBI and you said, all right, we've done all this stuff, we've got the story, and you were feeding them information and had been, but you come to them at some point and say, we want to run the story or we're going to run the story, you've got a problem with it, they call you back 20 minutes later and say, no, go ahead and run it.
And they were also asked at that time if, look, are we on the wrong track because we don't want to wrongly accuse or initiate a federal investigation on an individual if we're on the wrong track?
We'd like to back off and, you know, I do surveillance for a living.
I'd rather get back and watch workers' comp surveillance or something.
I mean, it's, you know, much safer.
One, it's normal as far as normal everyday activities.
And this is out of the norm.
It's out of the norm both for Jaina, everybody at Channel 4, and myself.
We were kind of thrust in the middle of this, and being red-blooded Americans, we're not going to give up until we're told to back off, till we're told we're wrong, or until this gentleman's arrested, period.
They were, I'm sure, careful in the words they chose, but they basically had no objections with the story and to for us to do what we feel we had to do or for the news channel to do what they feel they had to do and they had no objections.
Okay, without asking you a lot about the person's identity, would it be your impression that if the person you suspect may be John Doe number two is John Doe No.
2, that there might be an international connection to the bombing?
Well, that would utterly and completely change the nature of the story.
And also, I might add, Mike, if that would be true, it would increase the danger, or certainly would have, for Jaina and for yourself, at least up until this moment.
Now, going public in the way you're going public actually may lessen the danger.
And that's neither here nor there as far as our motive.
Our motive is sincere in that we want to do what we want to do.
I personally know people, relatives of friends of mine, who have been pulled over in more than one state as of within 30 days because they look like John Noel No. 2 and questioned in detail in multiple states.
Yet, you know, there must be some method to the madness as far as the investigation.
And I'm not an FBI agent, nor could I be.
The fact is, you know, by them not questioning him up to this point, clearly to me, we must be on the right track to a point, you know, to a certain truth in what we're saying.
And again, you know, you can handle their questions the way you've handled mine.
When you get one you can't handle, just say, I'm sorry, I can't answer that, or whatever, and we will understand.
I mean, you're in a very tough position.
I sympathize with where you are in this investigation at this point, and I really want to thank you for coming on because this story has been driving me up a tree for days.
And if Art, if I can kind of interject something here, too, Bill, to let you know, the channel, the news channel, has had a lot of support from a lot of the families of the victim.
And they want to know the truth, period, here in Oklahoma.
Everybody wants to know the truth.
There's things that, you know, I can't say on the show, but some of the families of some of the victims are involved in certain aspects of this investigation that we're conducting.
So there's no doubt, you know, these people suffered a great loss, the families, and we really feel for them.
That's why we're so careful to, you know, second sourcing it isn't good enough.
We source things three times, four times, as many times as we can source them.
And Bill, I agree with you that you've got to be careful about the victims' families, but I'll bet one thing, Bill.
I bet they want to know the truth, don't you think?
unidentified
Well, we as Americans want to know the truth to the bottom line of this.
I mean, that was a sad, sad situation, and a lot of involvement in it was pointed fingers in all different directions, and the Americans were the last to be believed to be the ones to be doing it.
And now we're back to stage one when it originally forecasted of foreign involvement.
And we think, and I think anyway, and Mike seems to agree, that that could be the reason why, A, the FBI is very cautious about making any move, and B, why other media outlets have been so cautious about picking up on the story.
unidentified
Exactly.
And that's why I'm hoping that this guy's got all his ducks in a row and all his eyes dotted and his T's crossed before he makes his accusations that they got this guy.
Everything that I have not told any, I have not told you in any of this conversation, nothing that has not been made public record via Channel 4 News Channel.
And before it gets put public record, it is given to the FBI, and it doesn't go on the air without them being let know that they plan to take it on the air and give a blessing or a request not to put it on the air and to go from there.
Mike, are you aware of any of the accusations coming out of KPOC, out of Punka City, that the ATF may have had McVeigh under surveillance before the bombing?
Well, where we're at right now with it, as far as our investigation, what the FBI has, I don't know.
Where we're at, you know, we're just to the point that we have enough eyewitnesses and people that we've been able to source a few times over to really nail him as far as eyewitnesses.
You know, we have eyewitnesses that without a doubt that we're 100% we back or they back and I back.
Everything that I've told you that I have on videotape or that Jaina Davis gave to, you know, or she has on videotape, we have definitely backed that up a few times over.
Rebecca, I tell you, I can't say anything stinks about it.
This is my backyard here.
And for the simple reason is I have faith in our government.
I have faith in our federal law enforcement.
And, you know, I do have faith.
and I know they're going to do the right thing.
I know the American people are going to find out who did this.
It might be a while.
I hope it's not, because if it's a while, you know, Jaina Davis and I are going to continue our investigation until he's either released, you know, cleared and released by the FBI, or arrested, or whatever.
Mike, I know you can't speak officially for them, but would you say to this point, Channel 4 in Oklahoma City is standing by the details of their story as they have presented your investigation?
Well, Mike, there have been a lot of people who have been after me with the same kind of rhetoric that this man just came after you with, that we're, you know, firing a theater, this is a big hoax, you heard Rebecca's facts, and I've been holding on to this story like red meat and pursuing it.
And, again, I want to thank you for coming on the air and verifying so many aspects of it.
Let me try this question.
Mike, what is your opinion of the bomb or bombs theories?
In other words, two blasts, ten seconds apart, Bob from Roswell, New Mexico.
To be honest with you, Art, I haven't even wanted to go that aspect for this simple reason.
We're not doing the investigation to find out, you know, the details of it.
We're just wanting to, you know, there is a missing, at least, you know, it was reported, the FBI has reported, their latest report was they're looking for three to five individuals.
It's what they last reported here in Oklahoma City.
And, you know, one of them being this John Doe number two, which, you know, that's the only track we're going on.
So the audience then would be well advised to confine their questions to you to your investigation of who you'd believe to be John Doe number two, which is a totally non-trivial manner considering what we think we know about him.
Wild Card Line 2, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified
Hi.
Good morning, Mike and Art.
I'm in Las Vegas, Nevada, and I threw away my sketches of John Doe number two about three weeks ago when I heard that they had found and questioned the suspected John Doe number two and found that he just happened to be renting some other equipment or doing some other business at the rental place at the same time that McVay was renting the truck.
What it does is it cuts down the volume that we managed to get on the air, and it's a little marginal anyway, so that'll help a lot if you hang that other one up.
In other words, to your knowledge, has the FBI taken the photograph of the person you believe is John Doe number two into the rental agency?
All right, I'll tell you what we're going to do, caller.
We'll go through all that again.
If I can hold you, Mike, past the top of this next hour, a lot more stations join the network, and there are a lot of people who have joined in the middle of this, and they're going, what the hell are they talking about?
This sounds important.
And so we may have to retrench a little bit at the beginning Of the next hour.
Mike, as artists stated a couple nights ago, the national media could cover itself on this by simply reporting it as KFOR has reported, you know, so on and so forth.
I think their reluctance to touch this at all is what really smells to me.
And I don't share your faith in our government.
I think there's something a lot more to this thing.
In the beginning, right after the blast, oh my God, there were reports everywhere.
CNN would say such and such a television station is reporting the following.
And even I can understand, for example, NBC, CBS, NBC, CNN, they might all not be able to get the people out in the field to do and cover the investigative work that you've done and verify it all and get it on the air themselves.
But that certainly has never stopped anybody from reporting what another major network, affiliate radio or television station has just reported.
And it is odd to me and everybody else that this has been so quiet.
I just, like we were talking earlier, Art, the ones that I'm aware of, there's at least nine there that have showed interest.
And by my being in the news station on a daily basis, there's calls coming in continually all day long.
Whether these people are wanting to source information and wanting the station to divulge who they are and want to do their own investigation, the sources won't be revealed.
Not only myself, but Gina Davis herself has guaranteed these people absolute no releasing of any of their information to anybody other than the FBI, period.
And then I all of a sudden think I do understand the hesitation of some of the major networks to go because you can't give them, you really can't give them what you've got, can you?
And there's been so much disinformation and misinformation out there from, you know, everything out there already that has been reported this, that, and the other.
And, you know, there was the problem with the big report on arrests soon to be made out in eastern Oklahoma in a religious cult area of Ego Tam City.
And that was all over the press.
And there's just been so much misinformation out there.
I personally, I believe they're just kind of getting a little skeptical and just watching what goes.
First off, I also would like to say I salute your fidelity to professionalism.
That's good to hear in your line of work.
Basically, mine's kind of a double question, but I'd like to know if, one, do they know how or do you know how McVay and this guy here first got their contact with each other and started seeing each other?
At this point, I will tell you that is actively part of our investigation.
We're trying to track that down.
We're working diligently at it.
And, you know, that's, of course, more detailed as far as the investigative standpoint and time-consuming than it was to do surveillance on this gentleman.
Well, now just on John Doe number two, are you aware, and not only any details, but are you or your people aware of him having any kind of contact to and from his home country since he's been watched?
Every time you say that, of course, everybody in the audience is going to be inclined to think that's kind of like saying, hey, here, read between lines a little bit.
I mean, in Oklahoma, it's almost 3 o'clock in the morning.
I mean, yes, it's a continual factor, and that's why we're so careful to multiple source what our investigation reveals for that factor, because I do not want to be involved in anything, and neither does the news channel nor Jaina Davis, that would resemble anything other than 100% factual information that we can prove.
I grew up with Mike Fortier, who was Army Buddy with Tim McVay.
And I was just wondering how he is connected in this, if you know anything that's going on with Tim as far as, you know, he hasn't been charged with anything yet.
Basically, as far as I can even comment on that, that I would be comfortable in doing is I did a little surveillance on Mr. Fortier when he was in town, confirmed he was in town.
Where it went from there, basically he was back in Kingman, Arizona.
I have not been able to, nor has Jane, connect our John Doe No. 2 lookalike to Mr. Fortier, if that's what you're asking.
There's nothing in our investigation so far that has connected him to Mr. Fortier or even to Kingman, Arizona for that matter.
With all the investigative work you've done, this man that you say looks like a John Doe number two, from a personal point of view, what percentage of chance do you think it is that you really have John Doe number two?
I could tell you this, compared to everybody else that has been questioned as John Doe number two, the likeliness and the necessity there to me that he needs to be questioned is 100%.
There is more leaning towards him.
Even today it was broadcast on Channel 4, some surveillance tape taken.
Everybody's been saying the actual John Doe number two has a tattoo on the upper left arm, which would coincide with the latest profile, which was the left side of his face.
Okay?
Which would make sense if he was on surveillance video.
You'd get the left arm with the left side of the face if he was driving a vehicle, correct?
So as of today, up until this point, our guy has worn nothing but long-sleeved shirts.
So as of yesterday, actually, we finally got some good, ideable close-up videotape.
That was put on the air of this gentleman's left arm, and it's clear as day, a tattoo.
So, I mean, I'm 100% convinced that this gentleman has to be questioned and either cleared or charged, period.
Let's say, just for the sake of it, that this guy's out there listening right now or watching Channel 4's reports, which I imagine he would be.
I mean, he's got to know.
He's got to know that he's the one and that the investigation's beginning to get awfully close and awfully warm, if not from the FBI, then from the media.
I assume, you know, we have him under surveillance.
I assume if this guy packs up and wants to drive out and leave, I can assure you that if my investigators or myself sees that, there's going to be plenty of phone calls made to people to try to put a quick hiatus on it if it happens.
Do you think that the FBI's in effect telling you to go ahead and broadcast, telling Channel 4 to go ahead and broadcast, might have been, from their point of view, a good idea because John Doe No. 2 suspect, if he did see the broadcast, would probably pack his bags and begin heading for parts unknown.
And this morning we're doing something I think very important.
As you know, for the last several days, we've been going round and round and round, following a couple of faxes that arrived here regarding a story on KFOR, New Channel 4, in Oklahoma City.
And I'm going to now have to, and excuse the earlier audience will have to excuse me, as there are so many affiliates now joining that we've got to retrench just a little bit.
I'll try and do it as quickly as possible.
Basically, we got this facts, and here's how it started.
Art, the lead story on Oklahoma City's KFOR News Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock, actually after the basketball game, this is in the initial night of the broadcast, was a report revealing the identity of John Doe, number two.
Reporter Gaina Davis has worked on this story since one week after the tragedy.
Davis presented witnesses who wished to remain shadowed with voice disguised who saw McVay and John Doe number two several days before the attack.
One witness claims that the pair drank beer at her bar in northwest Oklahoma City.
She says John Doe number two spoke with an Iranian or Iraqi accent.
Actually, that's been corrected a little by my guest.
That he had some sort of accent or was difficult to understand.
And that they spoke an Arabic language.
This also may not be so.
Further research by Channel 4 identified John Doe number 2 through surveillance photos obtained by local businesses near 10th and Penn.
This also is incorrect, but there are indeed surveillance photos, which of course is two and a half blocks from the AP Murrow building where it used to be.
The report showed some three shots of John Doe number two.
This is apparently now the Channel 4 story.
It showed three shots of John Doe number two, but scrambled the face as he has not yet been arrested or charged.
Research done by KFOR has revealed John Doe number two's name and nationality, but they did not release the name at the FBI's request.
The report did say the man was an Iraqi national who served in the Iraqi military during the Gulf War, Desert Storm, under Saddam Hussein.
The report also said the man is and has been under FBI surveillance and that he has a tattoo on his left arm.
That was the facts.
This morning, I received yet another facts, more on John Doe number two from KFOR.
As a result of Wednesday night's broadcast, a new witness has come forward to KFOR.
This witness places John Doe number two four blocks from the bomb site, seconds after the blast, speeding away in a brown pickup truck.
The witness said she ran from her office after hearing the blast, was almost run down by the brown Chevy pickup.
She got a real clear view of the driver, John Doe number two.
She describes his look as a very angry look, full of hate.
After she learned of the bombing, she felt this man was involved.
This witness said she recognized the man in the KFOR report, even though his identity was hidden by computer graphic.
Since Wednesday, she's been with KFOR and has identified the picture of John Doe No. 2 that KFOR has.
The witness also said she's been interviewed by the FBI the day of the bombing, but when asked if she saw a tattoo on the upper left arm, she told the FBI no.
KFOR then showed some full-body pictures their reporter had taken of John Doe number two.
In one of them, he's wearing a tank top, and when they zoomed into his upper left arm, you can clearly see the tattoo.
Now, our network, in fact, I personally contacted the manager of KFOR television earlier in the day.
I sent him a facts listing all of our affiliate radio stations so that he might understand that I'm for real.
He was polite.
We talked.
I suggested he facts or call me so we could get an interview with Jana Davis, the reporter who broke this story.
He said it sounded interesting.
I see what he would do or could do, and I heard nothing.
Our network made many valiant attempts and talked to many people at KFOR television during the day.
Nobody was willing to do an interview.
Jana Davis is not willing to do an interview, and you may shortly understand why, or perhaps you won't.
Shortly before airtime, I connected with a person we're going to call Mike, who is a private investigator, a subcontract employee of Channel 4 Television, KFOR, in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, he says.
And he has been giving us as many details of the investigation as he's been able to.
And what I'm going to ask Mike to do now, or in a moment rather, is to kind of retrench and tell us again exactly what it is his investigation began with Janet Davis shortly after the bomb went off.
What that investigation has revealed about the man they believe is John Doe number two.
unidentified
All of that coming up in just a moment.
Looking for the truth?
You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
You know what?
We are a wall to them.
And I have a feeling that the wall is getting stronger.
And it's going to be very tough for them to bust through it.
But I want to warn people, because the global controllers realize power is slipping from their hands, they're going to really try to do whatever they can to try to get us back in line.
And like a Bucking Bronco, all we got to do is throw the New World Order off our back.
Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
The End Mike, again, we're back on the air and I'm sorry I have to retrench so much here, but we've got a brand new audience at this hour.
And so as I just capsulized, and believe me, it's only a capsule of what's occurred in the last two days, because I've been really just up a tree with this.
In other words, the witnesses that Channel 4 put on television, for example, in Shadow, I've got to run you back through this.
You sat them down with as many as 20 photographs in a lineup, and you had them pick out, using very careful methods, you had them pick out, and they did pick out this one photograph of this person you believe to be John Doe number two.
The FBI, and then you went to the FBI, I guess Channel 4 did, and you said you were in on those conversations and said, look, we want to go to air with this.
They said they had no objections to them airing the show or airing any of the pieces.
Before each piece is put on the air, the FBI is contacted and let know what it's going to be put and give them a chance to say, hey, don't put that on the air.
It might screw up an investigation or you guys are completely on the wrong track.
And one thing you have to realize here, your listeners have to realize, is the news station that's doing this, the ratings, Nielsen ratings just came in.
They swept it in Oklahoma City.
They're number one in every category at every time.
So you're dealing with the highest credibility as far as media in town.
And they have that reputation.
They are not going to put something that is not, you know, dead solid.
Having said what you just said about their credibility, it brings back the question, my God, this is the NBC affiliate radio station in the very city where the bombing occurred breaking a story, saying, look, here we think we have John Doe number two.
We think there's an international connection.
We think that he fought in the war against America.
We think all of this, and not one major network, NBC, CBS, and so forth, has yet picked it up.
And now you've got a list of those who have now picked up the story and it's beginning to grow.
Arizona Republic, KFYI Radio, CNN, NBC News FeedWire, and several, and I can't name them, but several high-ranking senators on the Hill have called and asked for copies of all this.
Well, I presume that she knew about it before you did it, and I was wondering if she was apprehensive about it, thought it was okay, or I can't talk to her.
I think it comes down to a question of, you know, you get so many people wanting something, and until people really know your motives and what the heck's going on, everybody's apprehensive.
You know, if this turns out to, no matter what happens here on our investigation, this is still the biggest crime story, you know, that there is right now.
And it's terrible, and it's the biggest story around, and everybody and their dog that's involved in media wants this story.
I was wanting to ask him, could he elaborate on the report I heard here about the second Middle Eastern man who was talking to McVeigh and John Doe number two and was seen by a couple of these different witnesses talk, and I believe this is where the Arabic came in.
These two were talking in Arabic with John Doe, John Doe number two, and this other man was talking in Arabic while McVay was standing near.
Now, it was reported that McVeigh and these two individuals were seen.
It was also reported on one occasion, and it was sourced more than once, and it just slipped my mind to even mention it, that McVeigh was seen speaking a foreign language, but the individual did not know what the language was and did not recognize the language.
It's fair to say that the only thing really fair to say, or to be honest with you, would be the fact that the guy we are looking at is of Iraqi dissent, period.
But what I mean is, when you refer then to there having been another individual, foreign individual, who spoke with what you suspect to be John Doe No.
First of all, I was wondering if Mike thought there was still possibly any significance to the date that the bombing happened, that it was on the anniversary of the Waco tragedy, or it was just coincidence.
Okay, and I was wondering if either you, Art, or Mike could possibly speculate on either those in the FBI or those above the FBI having a motive for delaying the truth of this information.
I know that they've kind of been milking it to anti-militia and gun control and stuff like that.
Yes, and we speculated, really I did, and Mike sort of agreed with me earlier that a lot of people may feel stung by this, the FBI with their thinking that it was foreign in the beginning, the media itself thinking it was foreign, and so they might be reluctant to come back to a story that might say, gee, maybe it was foreign.
And right now, the truth, as your investigation has shown, is leading in a very, very different direction than anything any of us have thought for a long time now.
And I think, again, that accounts for the reluctance on a lot of people's part to begin going down this path again.
As far as we're going on our investigation, Art, you just do the investigation and keep an unbiased, you know, objective view.
And then, you know, after a day, you're looking and you're looking at all your sources.
And as an investigator, I kind of have to step back once in a while and regroup in my thoughts and my thinking for this.
It's hard to imagine that if our John Doe No. 2 lookalike ends up being arrested and charged for this and say ultimately convicted for this.
I don't want to convict the man, but who's to say?
Then just the scope and the reality is just starting to set in, not only with myself, but with Gaina Davis, because we've been able to source so many things on this that we have to catch ourselves and really grab on and realize that we're, you know, either way this goes, if it goes by the wayside, it was a hell of an investigation, and we were very thorough, fine.
If it goes the way, you know, it looks to be going to me, then, you know, I just can't imagine the scope.
And, you know, I was trying to compare it to something, you know, relative to this.
And the only thing I can almost think of would be like the Bernstein Woodward-Watergate deal.
I mean, and I would think this is a hell of a lot higher in scope, you know, personally in my mind than that.
My luck never goes that way, but I would tell you, Art, we have discussed, you know, if that possibility, and we've already, if we would get anything out of it, we've already decided that we would split it evenly amongst the witnesses that came forward, period.
If that's the case, I mean, why hasn't he left up to this point?
I mean, the stories have been run on this thing since Wednesday.
I don't know.
You know, I really can't get in this man's mind.
I really wish I could.
There's things in this investigation I cannot say, but I can tell you for a fact that I have personally, when seen this gentleman, when he thought anybody was looking at him anywhere in public, he covers his face.
I think the scope of the investigation is wider than just him.
You know, when you think the last report was anywhere from three to five individuals, Or in their own investigation, possibly find the brains behind it, what have you, and go from there.
This is more ground that we've covered earlier, but your possible visitor at the door brought it to mind, and that is your safety and that of Jana's as well.
But in fact, if there are deep international connections to this story, in the early stages of your investigation, Mike, there certainly would have been great personal danger for the two of you, and I'm sure that occurred to you.
I can tell you, I know as of early in the morning, as of yesterday, early morning, till about 5.30 that I am personally aware of, he was in the Oklahoma City metro area, so that's all I can comment on that.
Well, the answer is obviously apparently not who you thought it might be.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified
Hello, Art, calling from San Diego.
Two quick questions.
First, Mike, KFOR-TV has a homepage on the World Wide web on the internet.
However, it has not been updated since May 29th.
Is there any chance that you know of that some of this material you've been generating, even the transcripts of the broadcast in question, will be put up there anytime soon for a worldwide audience?
There's been team coverages because Jaina can't cover every angle.
There's been other reporters covering other sections of it.
As far as the investigation on number two, it's basically been Jaina, myself, and another reporter named Brad Edwards, who's a very diligent and experienced reporter.
He's been working on it also.
But it has been a group effort.
I have employees, but to be completely honest with you, I want to keep my employees completely out of this and not put them in any possible harm way.
I want to give you a chance to respond to the people that are saying this is some big hoax and Channel 4 and you and Jaina and the whole group are doing nothing but perpetrating a hoax.
It's such a horrible, terrible allegation to make, and I don't believe it for one second.
I can assume, just like Woodward and Berdstein, way back when, with the Post, there must have been some pretty serious sit-downs between yourself, Jaina, and the management before this thing went to air, right?
I can tell you that within minutes after the bombing on April 19th, there was an all-points bulletin put out, which was broadcast on KF4R TV, for a brown pickup, late model, smoked windows, tinted windows, and a smoke-colored bug screen with at least two Middle Eastern-looking male occupants.
That went on for a few hours, then for some reason it was taken off the APB.
There were numerous, you know, over scanner traffic, you hear numerous people being pulled over in brown trucks.
It kind of disappeared after a day or so.
It kind of fell off the media.
Then it was kind of brought back into the picture when they originally, the media or the FBI originally started investigating Fortier and said his truck, that the cream-colored one, had ammonium nitrate in it, and then it was kind of thrust back into the picture.
So that made us wonder, and we went back and we went from there.
We don't know where the truck's at.
I personally don't.
I know Jaina doesn't know.
We can tell you with the new eyewitness that came forward in fear and was scared, but it was something she felt in her heart she had to do.
Audience needs to know this is a new witness they're hearing about right now, one who was damn near hit by this brown pickup truck, and she saw the driver, and she has now ID'd that driver, identified that driver to Mike and to KFOR as the suspect that all these other witnesses have confirmed is the suspect.
And she came forward after the Wednesday, the initial airing on where KFOR decided to go ahead and put the pictures up, but mosaic the face out.
She recognized him by hair and said, that looks like the hair.
And before we ever did the lineup, Gina did an in-depth, probably hour and a half interview with the woman where she described this guy to detail.
This is well before ever seeing the pictures.
And then when the pictures came out, she picked out six out of probably 40, I think it's 45 to 50 photos, six of which were of our number two look alike.
The others were which of different American, Middle Eastern looking men, you know, various men.
And again, for the audience, your presence with me this morning is because of the talk on this station, on this network, I should say, over the last couple of days and the powers that be have consented in your being here, correct?
And the only other thing I want to say to you, and please take this from my heart because I worry about you because you're so important to us.
One thing that you might think about is this terrorist bill that just passed and the way that they're claiming people are malicious, please be careful because we do need you.
And I don't really want to ask any questions, but to our audience, please don't get emotional and let the regular course of the law take its way because we need this man.
Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
The End
The End You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks tonight, an ongoing presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
This being an unscreened talk show, you know, within legal bounds and no bad language and all that, but beyond that, you may comment as you will on the previous three hours, and I'm sure that you will have comments.
It provided some satisfaction for me in being able to draw some sort of closure and understanding of what we've been talking about for the last several days.
It raises incredible issues.
The possibilities are tremendous.
It's a gigantic story, and I think you've just heard as much as there is to hear on it.
Render your own judgments.
Now, some other news, and then we'll get the phone lines open again here.
I thought you should hear this.
Came in in the last half hour.
Hi, Art.
I know it's a bit off subject, but I thought you ought to be interested.
I just talked to my wife, who is working at the moment.
She is a 911 dispatcher.
I know the job, sir.
They have been receiving numerous calls from people in the vicinity of Reno, Nevada, all reporting an object streaking through the sky, possibly impacting in the Hallelujah Junction area near the Nevada-California border.
The calls she received were from points all around the Reno area, including Geiger Grade, Mount Rose, areas in Lassen County.
It was described as meteor-like, and two of the reports claimed a yellow flash as it disappeared over the mountains.
I was wondering if any of your other listeners in the Reno area have seen an object like this, and if so, could they relate what they observed over the air?
That's from Jim in Reno.
Thank you, Jim.
And so there it is.
It's out.
Otherwise, the news of the day is probably, in many respects, less than we have just given you in the last three hours.
Captain O'Grady, of course, it's wonderful that he's back.
And the story of how Captain O'Grady was able to hide from the enemy is nothing short of incredible.
And irrespective of a lot of questions about why his plane was hit by a missile, which, by the way, cut his airplane in half.
He ejected from the front half of the airplane after the missile cut the aircraft, the F-16, literally in half.
And he landed, parachuted in, and he hid in some underbrush, ate bugs, drank rainwater, covered himself with dirt, watched five armed Bosnian Serbs come by him within minutes,
and then successfully hid out for six days, moved only between 12 and 4 in the morning, carefully planned his radio transmissions.
We'll go to the White House to meet the President Monday.
The president will, I'm sure, wring every ounce of good publicity out of this.
The president needs it.
Newt is in New Hampshire, as I suggested he was.
Is he a candidate?
Nobody knows.
Is he running?
Nobody knows.
Will he say no, not exactly?
Says he's not running, says he's not not running either, so, you know, who knows?
Newt Gingrich in New Hampshire.
The Chinese are very upset with Taiwan because of the visit of Taiwan's president.
Oh, the Chinese are really upset.
They said, quote, a belligerent act, a wanton wound inflicted on China, almost calling it an act of war.
Basically, our State Department said, oh, come on.
I mean, back to the Chinese said, oh, come on.
You know, it was just a private visit, not a state visit, even if Taiwanese TV portrayed it as a state visit.
It was not.
So there's more in the news, but what we've had on in the last three hours is so large in its scope that I think that you're going to probably want to comment on that, and I'm going to allow you to do so.
I'm going to hold some more of this material for the remainder of the show.
We're getting a late start on just open lines, and so start we shall.
unidentified
*Rainful Screams*
Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Art Bell's Somewhere in Time Wildcard line, you're on the air.
Yeah, I was wondering if John Doe number two is legitimate, do you think the government would put him in the witness protection program and like rat out all his buddies, maybe in the militia?
Well, first of all, they have not yet revealed the name of the individual.
If you listen to what he said is they have many witnesses, now yet another witness who has identified this man as being John Doe number two, but nobody's revealed this man's name.
Only the description, but it matches, if you listen carefully, the FBI composite photograph.
unidentified
And the tattoo, the accent, and the photograph, don't you think that would be enough to where if somebody in Oklahoma saw somebody that fed that description, they might be asked to stock them?
Well, I would imagine that anybody fitting the description of somebody who might have done the bombing in Oklahoma City has been under damn careful scrutiny.
That would probably apply to anybody who generally fit the description, and certainly did apply, especially in the early days after the bombing.
If you heard him describe it, I mean, there were stopping cars with people who even generally fit the description early on.
East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
Good morning.
unidentified
Hey, I don't suppose you saw that new on Steve Span tonight.
I'd love to see them both in a forum where they...
Well, we'll see.
Either way, I'm going to look forward to it.
And as I said, try and catch Newt Gingrich Sunday on Meet the Press.
He's a very bright guy.
Now, maybe he'll fall down on his, you know, and won't live up to his billing.
But I would say to all of you who want to know about Gingrich, watch him on Meet the Press this Sunday and watch him under pressure and see how he does.
And I will be too.
And we'll see what we think.
I just happen to think Gingrich is a very, very bright guy who would be up to campaigning President Clinton and would take him on and, frankly, chew him up and spit him out.
Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified
Hi.
This is Charlie, Liberal in California.
Yes.
You know, I look at the Republican field and I get excited.
Considering you guys think Bill Clinton's so weak, it is an absolutely pathetic field, an absolutely pathetic field.
And then you've got somebody like Newt Gingrich, who has higher negatives, by the way, than Pat Buchanan.
There would be no way that an Iraqi operative could get into America undetected.
Oh, well, you know, the borders are like barriers of solid steel.
So it's unimaginable that an Iraqi operative could make it across our borders.
So I guess you're right, Charles, that certainly rules out the possibility there could have been any contact between an American and an Iraqi operative.
Now, here's the point that people are making to me, which I think makes some sense.
The reason I voted for Perot last time and the reason I support Buchanan has a lot to do with what I perceive as happening to the American economy and the American social fabric as a result of loss of good jobs.
I'd like to modify that sometime, but we probably don't have the time.
But I agree with the basic principle that if you've got a one-factory town and you move that factory into Indonesia, you're going to have social problems in that town in no time.
All right, the alternative point is don't encourage the factory to move.
Now, I'm with you there, and these little closed government organizations that seem to be encouraging American factories to move elsewhere ought to be shot in the can.
unidentified
Right.
Well, you see, the business-as-usual climate in Washington is not going to change significantly under Newt.
And what I mean by that is we've got to take into account the media blitz that's going to occur if Newt runs for president.
They're going to link him as strongly as they possibly can with the multinational corporations, with GoPAC.
But do you doubt for one second that if Pat Buchanan, with political miracles on his side, caught fire, became was nominated, became the nominee, they'd do a job on Pat Buchanan that would curl your hair?
unidentified
I think you're absolutely right on that.
But what I fear will happen is that as soon as Newt decides to run, Ross Perot is going to be able to get up on a stump and proclaim, look, all the things I said talked about in the last election have occurred.
I'm right.
And here we've got two internationalists running for president.
The American people do not have a choice.
They have no protection against this plan which means trashing their economy.
I'm going to satisfy you and not argue with you about it and just say they identified him, according to the KFOR broadcast, as the suspect they believed to be John Doe, number two, as an Iraqi, a former Iraqi soldier who fought on the side of Saddam Hussein in the Desert Storm War.
Now, what we call him, you call him anything you want.
That is as much of the definition as I have been led to understand is the case.
Yeah, you heard of the now I'm going to be just joking with you a little bit, but you got to understand that some people think how ridiculous this Iraqi thing is.
For example, have you seen the TV show Mark and Mindy?
And I've seen diagrams of what it took to shape that charge.
And we had a lot of discussions about how very little it takes, and if you know what you're doing, how you can essentially shape a charge of those large canisters full of that stuff wrapped with the cord that was, in effect, the detonator and all the rest of it.
And it was how you laid them out.
We went through that, and I don't want to rehash it.
I think the whole situation, in some ways, is reminiscent of that, and probably as time grows and mythology grows, if we don't ever get to the bottom of all this, it will begin resembling it in even yet more ways.
Last call, everybody.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
All the leaves are brown and the sky is gray.
I've been for a while on a winter day.
If I didn't tell her, I'd believe...
...
Midnight after waiting, send your camel to bed.
Shadows painting our faces.
Crazy the romance in our head.
Heavens holding our hands.
Shine is just for us.
You're listening to Arch Bell Somewhere in Time on Premiere Radio Networks.
Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
And no matter what I've done, as my weekend begins, I try to launch it with Maria Moldauer.
It just reminds me of the beautiful, peaceful place in which I live.
Good morning, everybody.
Foxes ranging all over the place from this art.
Thanks for wasting the entire night on a government attempt to switch the focus as to the culpability from the Oklahoma City bombing away from the government to a collection of Patsys.
You'll probably censore this one just like you did my box of last night.
If so, maybe we should call you G-Man.
Government man, for those not to know, signed Ichabod from Como.
I think it's a shame in this age of fast communications that we still let these two political clubs get together and pick for us Tweedledee and Tweedledum to vote for.
And in addition, let Tweedledee and Tweedledum tell us who we're going to get for vice president when in the Constitution, I believe if you look very closely, you'll see that we are entitled to vote for the president and the vice president.
I mean, you know, I mean, the parties nominate them, and through the party process, and frequently by choice of the candidate, you know, they submit the name for vice president.
He goes through the nomination process just like the presidential candidate does.
unidentified
Oh, yes, I understand that.
But I think we should have nationwide primaries where each state, if you win a state, you get one vote, so that they don't have to campaign at five to seven major states and population centers to get elected because then they're the president of New York, Texas, California, and the other populous states, Illinois, whatever they are.
But if we had a method for electing our president, vice president, that would be a popular vote, no electoral college, I think that we'd be a lot better off rather than letting clubs get together.
And I was wanting to bring up the question as to why the FBI allowed them to come out public with their information but then did not vie to back them up.
The FBI didn't either endorse or say don't run it or, you know, took really no position at all.
But I guess, you know, you could read between lines if you were a reporter and you laid it out and they said go ahead, you could then, I suppose, think many things.
You could think, well, either they're saying run it because it's true or because they think it might help flush somebody out of the position they're in or make them reveal themselves or pack their bags and take off for Bonus Arris or whatever.
You know, who knows?
I'm sorry.
I don't have those answers.
unidentified
Well, the fact that it's not, that, you know, that it's not being picked up by the general publications.
This would be almost like that the general media, the controlled media, has been told to, you know, lay off of this and for some reason, either to discredit this or maybe to maybe the only ones that would come out in that case would be, quote, like the talk show hosts and another effort to discredit them.
being the newt fan i have to say No, but I don't broadcast it anyway.
Well, except now.
unidentified
Yes, that's right.
I'm broadcasting.
But listen, he's going to run.
There's no doubt about it.
But at least he's going to find out.
This is brilliant, the strategy to try to get him side by side with Clinton because he'll see right away how he's going to play nationally and see how his polls go when he's side by side.
But here's what's going to happen is as these things get vetoed, as Bob Dole drops the ball, people are going to say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
We like Newt what he's doing, but as it moves higher up, it's just getting, we like the, first of all, the polls are very high for every one of the items of the Contract of America.
And when they connect, they make the connection that the guys higher up are stopping it, and Newt's the one responsible for getting it going, I think that we'll see a change.
Sir, sir, you're asking me a question I don't have the answer to.
I will tell you this.
I believe that at the very beginning of the Desert Storm War, we dropped a lot of leaflets behind the lines of the Iraqi soldiers telling them, yes, telling them to throw up their hands, throw down their weapons, and give up.
And we made certain promises.
And I believe on that basis, a number of Iraqi soldiers have indeed made their way to the U.S. as immigrants.
So I don't know that that's the answer to the question.
It's just my guess.
unidentified
Right.
Yeah, I remember dropping the leaflets part of SciOps.
And that's pretty interesting.
The other question that I had was yesterday, I guess a couple days ago on your show, we were talking about the reason that the government had allowed the news media to broadcast about the down pilot in Bosnia.
And we said that we, and I found it hard to believe that they would even let something like that out.
Now, the one aspect of it that I haven't not compared, and I haven't looked carefully at, is he was rescued about 20 miles from Bihach, not more than about five miles from where he came down.
Or maybe it was even closer than that.
Maybe it was 500 feet.
I can't remember.
It's very close.
And I'm trying to recall exactly where the Pentagon had specified they were getting their signals.
Now, maybe that was intentionally to mislead the Serbs with regard to where the signals were coming from.
So I would need to carefully compare what they originally said.
I wanted to ask you, last night was a bit of a discussion about the American flag and how people burning it, the possibility of passing legislation against it.
And of course, you had a kind of common sense solution that people wouldn't allow it to be done anyway.