Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

June 9, 1995 - Art Bell

02:53:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Oklahoma City Bombings

Participants

Main voices

01:15:40

private investigator mike

55:09

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell.
unidentified		Welcome to Arkbell Somewhere in Time, tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, and welcome to another edition of Coast to Coast AM Live Talk Radio Throughout the Night Time.
		I said live, because we're here right now, while others recycle, regurgitate, repeat relentlessly.
		We are here live, once again proving why talk radio is much better live than repeated.
		Now, as you all know, for the last few days, my blood pressure has been high.
		We've been following a story in Oklahoma City very closely, which was broken by Channel 4, KFOR television in Oklahoma City.
		And my assumption must be this morning that some of you don't know what we're talking about.
		And so I'm briefly going to take you through the chronology.
		And then I've got a guest.
		A very unusual, very interesting guest.
		It began this way with a couple of people who sent me faxes, shocking faxes.
		And I'm going to read you the content of one.
		Dear Art, a lead story on Oklahoma City's KFOR News Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock, this is now a couple days ago, was a report revealing the identity of John Doe No. 2.
		Reporter Gaina Davis has worked on this story since one week after the tragedy.
		Davis presented witnesses who wished to remain shadowed, voices disguised, that sort of thing, who saw McVay and John Doe No. 2 several days before the attack.
		One witness claims the pair drank beer at her bar in northwest Oklahoma City.
		She says John Doe No. 2 spoke with an Iranian-Iraqi accent.
		They spoke an Arab language of some sort to each other.
		Further research by Channel 4 identified John Doe No. 2 through surveillance photos obtained by local businesses near northwest Pent and Penn, about two and a half blocks from where the AP Murray building used to be.
		The report showed some three shots of John Doe No.
		2, but scrambled his face as he has not yet been arrested or charged.
		Research done by KFOR has revealed John Doe No.
		2's name and nationality, but they didn't release it at the FBI's request.
		The report did say the man was an Iraqi national who served in the Iraqi military during the Gulf War, desert storm, under Saddam Hussein.
		The report also said the man is and has been under FBI surveillance and that he has a tattoo on his left arm.
		Thought you'd like to know?
		Well, that set off, as you might imagine, a firestorm of interest in the story on this program, certainly.
		I got another fact saying essentially the same thing.
		Then we began trying to do what to do, verify the story.
		Through our program, excuse me, news director at WKY, our affiliate, WKY in Oklahoma City, we confirmed the essential details of the story, that it was essentially as we had heard that it was reported.
		Then began a long questioning of why, in God's name, this story was not picked up by the parent network, by other networks and news outlets around the country.
		And for two days, we've been wallowing in that great mystery.
		Well, not that it's all going to be solved, but hang on, we've got a guest coming.
		A little more chronology.
		Meantime, my network, hard at work up from Oregon, also contacted the television station, spoke to several people at KFOR, and all of them, to the person, said, no.
		Jaina will not, under any circumstances, do an interview.
		At this point, what is a mother to do?
		Well, a mother begins imagining all kinds of wild things, like it might be an FBI plant story.
		It might.
		It still might.
		I don't know.
		Then, tonight comes a fax, the following.
		According to KFOR Channel 4 TV in Oklahoma City, they have identified John.
		Excuse me.
		I'm reading another copy of one of the original faxes I got.
		This is the one that just came in.
		It's entitled More on John Doe No. 2.
		As a result of Wednesday's broadcast, a new witness has now come forward to KFOR.
		This witness places John Doe number two four blocks from the bomb site seconds after the blast speeding away in the brown pickup truck.
		The witness said she ran from her office after hearing the blast and was almost run down by the brown Chevy pickup.
		She got a real clear view of the driver, John Doe number two.
		She describes his look as very angry and full of hate.
		After she learned of the bombing, she felt this man was involved.
		This witness says she recognized the man in the KFOR report, even though his identity was hidden by computer graphics.
		Since Wednesday, she has been with KFOR and has identified the pictures of John Doe number two that KFOR has.
		The witness also said she had been interviewed by the FBI the day of the bombing, but when asked if she saw a tattoo on the upper left arm, she told the FBI no.
		KFOR then showed some full-body pictures their reporter had taken of John Doe number two.
		In one of them, he is wearing a tank top.
		And when they zoomed into his upper left arm, you can clearly see the tattoo.
		That's from Craig in Lawton Ogloma.
		So there is everything as I had it up until a little before broadcast time.
		And I've got, you know, a million other facts about this.
unidentified		A lot of other networks are now aware of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		CNN was aware of the story, waiting for confirmation.
		AP Wire Service and others waiting for confirmation.
		ABC New York not aware but looking into it.
		Local NBC affiliate was interested in another town, but they also are investigating and on and on and on.
		So we seem to be the driving force behind this story now, going beyond KFOR.
		Others, I understand, have touched on it as well, including Chuck Harter now and Lol Potty and some others.
		So the story is now beginning to break out of the first stages.
		There you've got a kind of a chronology.
		And I thought, oh boy, this sounds like, really sounds like a plan.
		I mean, what television station would not want their story told?
		It's an important story.
		Very important.
		A half hour before airtime, I got a call from somebody who will, for our purposes, we will call Mike.
		Not his real name, but we'll call him Mike.
		He is a private investigator.
		He says a contract employee of Channel 4 Television, KFOR.
		And he's here to talk to us about all of this this morning.
		So let me take a brief break.
		And when we come back, the private investigator doing the work that no doubt in part, or maybe even in a large part, along with Jaina Davis, resulted in the story that now is beginning to catch fire.
		In a moment, Mike.
unidentified		Mike.
unidentified		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now let me preface what you're about to hear only with one further item, and that is that Mike has contacted me.
		Now, I have no way of verifying that Mike is who he says he is.
		I will give you my personal assessment, having spoken to him, that I believe that he is.
		So, why don't you decide for yourself?
		Here we go.
		Mike, are you able to hear me?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Mike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, have I roughly, first of all, represented you properly as a contract employee of Channel 4 Television KFOR, a private investigator?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I am a private investigator, correct.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I am a subcontractor, not an employee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A subcontractor.
		All right.
		That would essentially be a contract employee.
		Correct.
		All right, Mike.
		Spill your guts.
		No, look, first let me ask you straight out, is this an FBI plant story?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not, Art.
		Let me just clear the air how it could not be.
		Jaina Davis and myself have been starting this investigation back shortly thereafter the bombing.
		Basically, after we gathered information, our primary surveillance tape, which we took, we went to the FBI.
		The FBI debriefed us and questioned us for about four and a half hours.
		We turned everything over at that time, videotapes, names, addresses, everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell us what, in essence, was on the tapes?
		Now, remember, the larger audience in the nation has not seen the KFOR report.
		So what did you have that you turned over?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you a little bit of history.
		First of all, once the bombing here, it's our backyard.
		I live in Oklahoma City, as do many, many other people.
		There were people, some credible, some not credible, that were going to various news stations.
		We were contacted by some witnesses that had been contacted already and questioned by the FBI.
		They gave the FBI their information.
		It went at that.
		Some of the witnesses we found to be very credible, we investigated.
		We investigated some that were not credible.
		But the ones we found credible that we could at least second source everything, we continued to investigate.
		Well, this led us to a group of individuals, one individual in particular.
		It got narrowed down to at least one individual, which we started doing surveillance.
		We started taking videotape.
		We started to see this gentleman's daily activities, or lack of daily activities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This was the person you were suspecting of being John Doe number two?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you were actually on the guy.
		You were taking videotapes.
		You were sitting somewhere and watching him, that sort of thing.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		We were taking surveillance tape of his daily activities, see what he did, who he associated with, things of that nature.
		Okay.
		Once we, and we kind of stumbled onto him in a kind of ironic way.
		But anyway, once we took the videotapes of this gentleman, we were looking at him, and Jaina Davis and myself were looking at the videotapes, and we kind of got a chill because of the look.
		Our possible John Doe No. 2 has very striking features.
		Very striking features.
		And we thought, well, we'd have to go on with this.
		We're trying to help in any way we can, help solve this crime if we can.
		If not, we'd like to be told we're wasting our time and get on down the road because we both have other things to do if that not be the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mike, did these striking features resemble the FBI's composite?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, they did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They did.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay, okay.
		Especially from the nose, eyes, the brow area, and the forehead and the hair.
		Space structure in general, it matched.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		We turned them over to the FBI.
		My initial observation, FBI came to us.
		We went to them.
		They came to us, interviewed us.
		When I initially first put the first video, a surveillance tape, we were interviewed by two agents.
		And both agents took double tapes and asked me to pause the videotape.
		Okay, they questioned us in length and in depth for four and a half hours.
		What we knew of them, you know, why, our witnesses, what have you.
		We've turned everything over to them.
		We have since hence continued to do surveillance on number two as of today.
		Or number two lookalike, I should say.
		Number two lookalike.
		As of today, we have continued to get surveillance tape.
		We have continued to turn everything over to the FBI.
		We're in continual contact with them.
		Of course, by nature of their job, they don't tell us anything.
		We don't expect them to, to be honest with you.
		We're here to help them if we can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that would be true, yes.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to correct a couple little things you mentioned in your brief little summary here at the beginning.
		Okay.
		During that summary, you said surveillance taken by I'm sorry, surveillance tape taken by neighboring businesses off Tanthan, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what the facts said.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That's incorrect.
		None of the videotape do we have was taken from any other video camera other than our own, including the FBI.
		And none of them was taken from FBI surveillance tapes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that includes everything in your report with Jada, right?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what's going on, KF4.
		Correct.
		All right.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Second thing I'd like to correct with you is you had mentioned an individual, a young lady, that went on camera in disguise where she had seen McVeigh and our John Doe number lookalike in a bar drinking beer.
		Correct.
		You were misinformed when they told you that McVeigh and this John Doe number two lookalike were observed speaking a foreign language together.
		That is not correct.
		The correct answer to that would be this John Doe number two lookalike asked the waitress a question of whether she was married.
		She couldn't understand what he said.
		She asked him to repeat it.
		He repeated it.
		He spoke with very broken English.
		At no time.
		Right.
		She was from Southern California.
		She knows Hispanic.
		This gentleman kind of looks Hispanic.
		It was not Hispanic.
		And during the interview, she stated it was the same as she heard during news reports from the Gulf War.
		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so that's how they came up with the preliminary thought that this might be an Iraqi or an Iranian or Middle Eastern type?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No, no, sir.
		Actually, it's not.
		Within minutes after the bombing, one of my investigators taped all the police radio traffic on scanners.
		Within minutes after the bombing, and that was reported on Channel 4 also, they were looking for a brown Chevy pickup truck, tinted windows, bug shield, with at least two Middle Eastern-looking males.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall that report distinctly.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that was coming directly from the FBI.
		We taped it.
		We have where police officers locally are asking, do we know if this is good information?
		And it's right there on the report from a law enforcement official stating it was authorized by the FBI.
		Within a few hours after that, the APB out for the Middle Eastern connection kind of died off.
		Inside law enforcement sources say the FBI told them specifically, pull the APB from the Middle Eastern men off.
		Quit giving it away.
		Quit asking for them.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me stop you there.
		I remember a report, maybe that's further downline, that two Pakistanis, I believe it was Pakistanis, were detained and questioned by the FBI for a period of time and then let go.
		Now, do you recall that?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		i don't like i recall having a lot of checks is somewhere they've got a A gentleman from Texas was questioned, detained, then released by the FBI.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Around here, it was kind of went crazy for a little bit because anybody that had dark skin and drove a brown, could have been a little car, was getting pulled over and questioned public hysteria.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, I'm sure.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long, so this investigation by yourself and Jaina, did it begin roughly a week after the bombing or just right very shortly after the bombing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that when it all began, when you began work?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It began within about, I would just, I'm guess, probably within three days after the bombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three days?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I would say roughly within three days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you worked on this story from that period until when it aired, what was it, Wednesday?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That was, no, sir.
		We've worked on it continually through today, but it did not first air Wednesday.
		It aired some time back.
		It's been a continuing series and updates as far as the programs and these stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there must have been something about the story on Wednesday that lit everybody's fire.
		Maybe it was a culmination, or maybe it just built to some sort of crescendo or something.
		But it was as though KFOR broke it just the other day.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, and I'll tell you where that came from.
		Of course, I'm not employed by KF4.
		I'm not their employee.
		I'm speaking as their subcontractor, as myself, okay, as the investigator.
		The story Wednesday broke when we've accumulated all this information.
		We have had multiple eyewitnesses that, in my job as an investigator, I was trying to discredit them.
		I was trying to make sure it was a non-prejudiced third-party objective to get down to the truth.
		To be honest with you, if this isn't real, myself nor Jana Davis nor any of the news channel would want anything to do with this.
		It's not a racial thing.
		It's a thing about the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I want is a truth.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's all for the truth, basically.
		So we had all this information.
		We had multiple white witnesses that have been through lineups.
		And you're talking, I did the lineups myself, you're talking pictures of at least 45 to 50 pictures, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, of various individuals.
		These pictures, on their own, non-prejudiced, on camera, picked out our John Doe No.
		2 lookalike on each occasion.
		And without hesitation...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out of how big a lineup?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I would say a variation of up to 20 different people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well that's pretty impressive.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And you're talking, somebody had made a comment on another talk show that, you know, some people think people of certain races all look the same.
		That is incorrect.
		We put faces, I even try to trick some of them to say, you sure it's not this guy?
		You know, you sure it's not this man?
		And they would always stick to their story.
		We found it credible, we could second source things.
		We basically, Janey did her package, took it where she needed to took it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike, I want you to hold your story right there for us.
		We've got to take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
		You won't hear anything for a few minutes.
		Don't let it worry you.
		We're going to break here at the bottom of the hour.
		My guest is somebody who calls himself Mike, a private investigator who worked with and continues to work with Janey Davis, the reporter who broke this incredible story from Oklahoma City.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
		Bye.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		The End
art bell ▲ ● ▼		why is jaina not doing interviews now is it just her personal choice uh is she just doesn't want to do interviews in other words it's her story and it's your story i guess and um you would think that she would want to get it out and and get it out accurately and And I'll accept that as your reason for being here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just asking, why isn't Jaina?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I do not really know.
		Jaina is still employed by the news channel.
		The story isn't completely over.
		We're kind of looking for a finish to the story.
		We'd like a resolve.
		The big question in our mind is once this is resolved with a yes, it could be him, or yes, we've arrested him, or yes, we've cleared him, we've questioned him, then it's over.
		It can go either way.
		We're still kind of in the hanging stages.
		As far as her personal reasons, or maybe it's the news channel reasons, I'm not in the decision-making part as to her personal or whatever it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll accept that answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now as for your part in this, Mike, I take it that the powers that be, whoever they be, authorized you to do what you're doing right now.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, you could take that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I take it.
		All right.
		So the investigation's ongoing.
		This man is still in, to the best of your knowledge, and you should know, Oklahoma City.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		As of 5.30 this evening, yes, sir, he was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just hours ago?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many witnesses altogether, Mike, have identified this man the way you suggest he's been identified, you know, in large lineups?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'd say at least three that have been able to come on camera or willing to come on camera.
		Both, you know, unidentified, of course.
		There have been others that have not wanted to come on camera at all.
		And we, of course, protect their identity.
		Something I can touch back on your other question is why I believe, too, it just popped in my head.
		I'm sorry to go out of order here.
		No, it's quite all right.
		I believe part of the reason this is the news channel is getting, it's swamped and inundated with phone calls about this.
		But we, both Jaina, myself, and the news channel, we have a commitment to the witnesses.
		Nobody wants to take the story without being able to confirm it themselves.
		And we will absolutely not, any ones I have, I will not reveal, neither will Jaina to anybody other than the FBI.
		And I know there have been calls and questions on, well, we want to talk to this witness, this witness.
		We have guaranteed them their anonymity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		That I understand.
		And as I did with you with some information at the beginning of the program, I promised to keep it to myself, and I shall do so.
		I'm a man of my word, and I assume that Channel 4 is as well.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I can understand why they would protect these witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, you, Mike, have had a chance to really talk to these witnesses probably the way almost nobody else except perhaps the FBI has, I guess.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How credible are they, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I tell you, in my personal opinion, they're very credible.
		In my professional opinion, they're excellent witnesses.
		Just for instance, the young lady that was on the, I'm sure you haven't seen it, but the young lady that came on tonight's show at 10 o'clock show after the NBA playoff year, she came to the news channel, she saw it.
		If you saw the picture of the John No.
		2 look like, you would understand how she picked him out, even though his face was mosaiced out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you're verifying the second facts that I've got here about the lady who came to KFOR, another witness, and also has now identified.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And another witness who was also questioned by the FBI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then, several, it's hard to know which direction to go.
		to go.
		First, why, I guess my first question is, the FBI seemed inclined to pick up anybody early on who even, as you pointed out, remotely drove the sort of vehicle or whatever.
		So why haven't they picked this guy up?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Art, that's my question itself.
		I imagine in the wisdom of the FBI that they're probably doing an in-depth investigation in which they feel it, you know, safe to maybe find out who his associates might be or what have you.
		I think there's underlying factors here that you're still not made aware of and the public's still not made aware of it and won't be, that I, Gina, are aware of.
		So trust my judgment and there is reasoning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then let me ask something and you can react to it how you wish.
		In the beginning, in the first hours after the bombing, clearly the reports were that this was a foreign connection in all likelihood.
		You know, they'd seen some foreigners and everybody, of course, immediately suspected Iraq or Iran or some country like that behind it.
		And that's what the large news organizations went with.
		Then all of a sudden, the story took a different direction suddenly.
		And they all had, we all had, because I did some of that reporting, egg on our faces.
		And it was as though, oh boy, you know, we should be apologizing for even automatically suspecting foreign involvement like this.
		A lot of egg on a lot of faces.
		And the story took a whole new turn.
		Now, what you're reporting seems to point right back again to the possibility, at least, of foreign involvement.
		Could that account for the hesitation and so forth the FBI seems to be displaying now?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		In my opinion, I'd say my opinion is without a doubt.
		I mean, the gentleman that was arrested in London is an Oklahoma City native, and he was apologized.
		You know, the president apologized to him.
		So he's of Middle Eastern descent.
		So I would say they would, you know, in my opinion, they're going forward cautiously, and I don't blame them for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I understand the political pressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what do you think, and this is just a guess, I'm sure, on your part, Mike, or maybe you know, KFOR is a reputable mainstream Channel 4 NBC news affiliate there in the city where the bombing took place.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a big story, Mike.
		There's no question about it.
		And Channel 4 ran it, and then nobody else, nobody else picked it up, with the exception of this program early on, with questions.
		And to this moment, with some few exceptions, on the fringe, it still hasn't been picked up by the networks.
		Earlier in the day, when I spoke with the general manager of Channel 4, I said, I would presume you fed the network on this, didn't you?
		And he said, well, look, I just got back from a trip or something.
		So yes, I would certainly presume we did.
		Do you know whether they did feed the net?
		And can you answer why it hasn't been picked up?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I can't answer why.
		I can list you at least nine different media agencies that have this.
		I can list nine that I'm aware of that I could tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay, New York Times picked this up.
		AP Wire, UPI Radio Network, Dallas Morning News.
		Just tonight, WNBC, the NBC affiliate in New York City, ran the story.
		Arizona Republic picked it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Finally.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		KFYI Radio, CNN, and of course NBC Newsfeed, and there's also been calls by, and I won't name, but several high-ranking senators on the Hill have called.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So finally, it is beginning to break.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure did break slowly, Mike.
		Very interesting.
		And I wonder if some of the same forces are at work here in the media as are at work, or I suspected were at work in the FBI's hesitation to go out and arrest this man, and that is the media's reluctance to, in effect, say, oops.
		Follow me?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I follow you.
		All I can say from my experience in this is it takes a lot of nerve.
		It takes both from an individual all the way up to a news channel, a news station.
		KF4R TV in Oklahoma City, the NBC affiliate, just swept number one across the board in Oklahoma, in the Oklahoma City market.
		So they're number one without a question and with definite definition and they're number one standing.
		So it took a lot of nerve and the detail that had to go into this, the second sourcing, it's remarkable.
		And the majority of the witnesses we have, both on camera and the ones that just are too scared to go even with their voices and face in disguise, a number of them have been interviewed by the FBI.
		But you have to remember, most of the interviews came within hours or within a day or so of the bombing.
		The first videotape I took of this John Doe No. 2 lookalike wasn't until April 24th, which is five days after the bombing.
		So at that time, they wouldn't have the stills and the videos we provided to produce in a photo lineup.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does your John Doe No. 2 suspect know that he's under surveillance?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I assume not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does he act as though he knows?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		From the onset, he's a very suspicious individual.
		He appears to be soldier-like.
		He's very wary.
		He's very cautious where he goes.
		I assume he doesn't know he is under surveillance.
		We've been very careful with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there must be dual surveillance going on because you are surveilling as you say the FBI is.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I assume they are, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, wait a minute.
		You assume they are.
		Do you know for sure whether the FBI has this man under surveillance now?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Art, if I knew, I wouldn't tell you, nor I could I tell you, but I can tell you this, everything we give, every videotape we get, it is requested from us by the FBI, and we voluntarily turn it into the FBI.
		I can assure you that we have not been told we're in the wrong.
		All the FBI can neither confirm nor deny because it is an active investigation, and we question them no more on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike, hold on just a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back to you.
unidentified		Wow.
		Wow.
		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell Okay, Mike, we're back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're back, Mike.
		Are you there?
		Hello, Mike.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, apparently Mike is speaking to somebody else on the phone right now about exactly this.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
unidentified		Go ahead, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Mike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you there?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it you're getting communication from elsewhere.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I am, sir.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That's the story of my life, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do they want us to know?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Basically, where we're going.
		Just something that needs to be, I need to let you know.
		And as far as validity, as far as credibility, each photo lineup that we did with these individuals, each photo lineup was taped from the beginning, the moment we started talking to them, through the whole setup.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you've got videotaped even of these witnesses doing the identifiers.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		And we did not talk to these witnesses off camera to ensure credibility, to ensure the stability of the photo lineup, say, okay.
		And we taped it from the beginning to we left.
		Once they identified him, we even taped stowing the pictures, putting the pictures away completely from beginning to out the door.
		The camera was running full time, and that is being turned over to the FBI, too.
		There's no question of a tainted witness, a possibility of a tainted witness.
		And most of ours that I probably didn't tell you, I know I told you we double-sourced it, but Jaina and I triple-sourced it.
		Sometimes four and five times we would source something to make sure we're on track.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you characterize for me, now obviously, I mean, here you are delivering some very heavy information to the FBI.
		Even though they're pretty stoic guys, I know quite a few agents myself, and they're pretty stoic, you must have been able to discern some sort of reaction from them from surprise to great interest to no interest to, we'll take this information only if we have to.
		I mean, characterize for me, if you would, the way they communicated with you.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Basically, any contact you might have had with the FBI.
		When I call, they're there.
		I have no problems getting them on the phone.
		When I leave a message or Dana leaves a message, they're back with us within 15, 20 minutes, probably max.
		They're kind to us.
		They're nice.
		Anything we have, we give to them.
		They ask if we have anything.
		We'll tell them we're going to get this.
		If, for instance, one of, we were asked if we could place our John Doe No. 2 lookalike with McVeigh at the onset, towards the beginning stages of the investigation.
		We said, well, we'll let you know as we go.
		Well, we called them up and said, we now have witnesses that can place John Doe No. 2 look-alike with McVeigh.
		They were very interested.
		We turned it over to them.
		Now, as of today, we have a witness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do these involve the people in the restaurant?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it placed them together, or were there other locations?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		There's beer drinking establishments.
		There's other businesses that they were seeing.
		Some are on camera, some are off-camera for the fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Basically, we contacted them and said, not only have we placed them with McVay, now we have placed them with inside, driving a Brown Chevy pickup by a credible witness that was within, as she put it, I believe, four to six feet, her face to his face, as he turned a corner driving that car, John Doe Dumber II lookalike did, and remembered the features of him.
		And if you saw the man, if you saw the stills, if you saw the video, his features, you would not forget.
		He is a very angry-looking man, and that is how she remembered him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, she was almost hit by him, wasn't she?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, she was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so could those reactions on his face have been fright at almost hitting her?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		Let me tell you why, Art.
		At the time of the bombing, my own attorney, my friends, people have business downtown.
		At the time of the bombing, time stopped downtown.
		People stopped the cars in the middle of the road with no movement.
		Everybody kind of froze and kind of panicked to get out of buildings.
		According to this eyewitness, credible, very credible eyewitness, the one that spotted him in the car, he was the only vehicle.
		What stuck out in her mind is everybody has a bewildered, scared look coming out, and all vehicles stop traffic, okay?
		He was the only vehicle, this vehicle that he was observed driving, or she spotted him driving, she identified him driving, was the only vehicle on the road moving and was going at a high rate of speed, was not looking at Wonderment, but was looking at her and made eye contact and kept eye contact as he came around the corner and was going at a high rate of speed.
		And according to her testimony, which was the whole interview, everything was taped from start to finish, so there's no question on what was spoken between whatever, you know, was what hit her is, why are you so angry?
		And where are you going so fast?
		And there's a problem here.
		There's an obvious problem.
		And that's what her own words, her own, you know, information she volunteered to us on her feelings.
unidentified		Wow.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's where we're going to have to leave it for the top of the hour, Mike.
		Relax.
		You've got probably about seven or eight minutes.
		And if you want to do any communicating in that time with Jaina, I know you did tell us Jaina is listening to this right now, isn't she?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I assume she is.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I can't speak for Jaina R, but I assume she is.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you have any communicating to do, you've got about eight minutes to do it, and we'll be directly back to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		See you to talk to you then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, a private investigator, contract employee of Campo R TV Channel 4, Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back to you.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
		Be Bye.
		We'll be right back.
		worldwide humiliation.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in Time.
		Tonight's program originally aired June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a special guest.
		His name for the record is Mike.
		That's not his real name, and he's the private investigator, a subcontractor, employee of Channel 4 television, KFOR, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
		And he's here telling us about the story that he's been working on, he says, with Jaina, who is the reporter who broke all this in Oklahoma City.
		It's a big story.
		And in a lot of ways, we're just getting started.
		I'm going to try and take care of the commercial continuity right here at the beginning so we can shoot straight through.
unidentified		Oh.
		Coast at Coast AM is happy to announce that our website is now optimized for mobile device users, specifically for the iPhone and Android platforms.
		Now you'll be able to connect to most of the offerings of the Coast website on your phone in a quick and streamlined fashion.
		And if you're a Coast Insider, you'll have our great subscriber features right on your phone, including the ability to listen to live programs and stream previous shows.
		No special app is necessary to enjoy our new mobile site.
		Simply visit CoastToCoastAM.com on your iPhone or Android browser.
		Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast2Coast AM has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price, just 15 cents a day when you sign up for one year.
		The package includes podcasting, which offers the convenience of having shows downloaded automatically to your computer or MP3 player, and the iPhone app with live and on-demand programs.
		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		Just think, as a new subscriber, over 1,000 shows will be available for you to collect, enjoy, and listen to at your leisure.
		Plus, you'll get streamed and on-demand broadcasts of Art Bell, Summer In Time Shows, and two weekly classics.
		And as a member, you'll have access to our monthly live chat sessions with George Norrie and special guests.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit Coast2CoastAM.com to sign up today.
		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast2Coast AM with George Norrie.
		I argue with people about disclosure time and time again.
		I've told them governments are not going to come out willingly to tell us it's going to happen by mistake, it's going to happen by a whistleblower, but it's not going to be an organized thing.
		Governments won't do that.
		And the reason why they won't do it is because they do not want us to know.
		They think that they'll lose control of us if we know.
		If you actually truly believed that we were being visited by extraterrestrials and you had categorical proof that it was happening, do you think you would listen to some of the bull that government throws out all the time?
		Absolutely not.
		You'd look toward the heavens, you'd say there's got to be a better way, and you would start doing your own thing.
		And you would forget all about government control and everything else.
		So the bottom line is government will never, ever disclose the true facts of UFOs.
		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell Good morning, I'm Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		My guest is Mike, a private investigator, a subcontract employee for Channel 4 Television, KFOR, the station that has broken the story about John Doe number two.
		Last hour, we got a graphic description of how he's collected the evidence, the steps that Mike has gone through, and so here he is once again.
		Mike, are you there?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am, Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So here you are, this large collection of videotapes, of IDs, of witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you guys think you've got John Doe number two?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have an individual that definitely looks a lot like John Doe number two.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		There's no doubt about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you, how much can you tell us about this individual?
		And are you not afraid you'll spook him?
		Or do you want to?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		Absolutely not.
		I just want to, Any questions you have, I'd like to answer you.
		You might just throw them at me, and I don't know what I can answer until then.
		We have quite a bit of information.
		We know who he is.
		We know where he works.
		Like I say, we don't know if this is John Doe No. 2.
		That's where we like to get to the bottom and have him question, find out if he isn't.
		Fine, if he is, why hasn't he been arrested or questioned?
		And that's where we're at right now with the investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you guys are sitting there saying, look, we've sent all this stuff to the FBI.
unidentified		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they haven't, as far as you can tell, made any moves to collect this guy up and question him themselves.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if they have or not.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I assume that they're taking the information we give them and doing their own investigation and doing what they feel is right and what under the law they have to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Try this one out for size, Mike.
		In the beginning, they had the composite drawing of John Doe number two.
		They said there is a second person involved.
		Here is the composite photograph.
		Then, slowly as time went on, that began to fade and fade.
		And pretty soon we're hearing stories saying, well, authorities now think there may be no such thing as John Doe number two at all.
		There may be no John Doe number two, that this was, you know, a one-man band job.
		And I'm still hearing that, really.
		I've heard no renewal of interest other than there through you in Oklahoma City regarding the fact that John Doe No. 2 may even exist.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		I'm not sure if he does.
		All we have to go by is the APBs they've put out, the information they've put out.
		There was the initial composite drawing of John Doe No. 2.
		Then it was the secondary composite drawing of John Doe No.
		2, and the looks changed a little bit.
		Then we came up, or the FBI came up with the composite drawing of the profile, which, to me, makes a lot of sense because we have been able to confirm that there is actual surveillance tape from the buildings, the surrounding buildings.
		That's confirmed, and that has been reported.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen it?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, I haven't seen it.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And if I did, I couldn't tell you, actually, are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are there, without telling me what they are, is the only way I know to ask this question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mike, are there a lot of things that you know about this story that you can't tell me right now?
unidentified		Yes, it's definitely fair to say that.
unidentified		Um...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going public then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would state your reason for going public on this, or coming on the program with me, is because you are dumbfounded at the fact the FBI has not yet made any moves, or you want to force the issue, or...
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		The reason I went public with you is this simple fact.
		We heard of comments made on the show with people not knowing or not in the know and making assumptions.
		And if the story is going to be told to whatever extent it can be told, at least let the facts come out so you know firsthand so there is no questions.
		I'm very careful.
		I don't say anything I shouldn't say.
		And to let you know, look, if people want to talk about it, it's America.
		These are Americans that died in this building.
		There were kids.
		There were mothers, fathers.
		That's right.
		And bottom line is the truth has to come out, period.
		And to be completely honest with you, if I'm on the right track and if I am on the wrong track, I put a lot of time, effort, sweat, fear.
		You know, if this is true, if this gentleman we do have on surveillance tape ends up by some chance being John Doe No.
		2, the fear factor just increased a thousand fold because we've been dealing with somebody at that point who could have done such a terrible atrocity to America and to America itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you or has Jaina expressed fear for your own lives?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		You can't help but.
		If I told you no, I would be arrogant.
		I'd be lying to you for the simple fact that, of course, we're fearful.
		This is the worst terrorist attack on American soil in history.
		And to think that a reporter and a PI, if it turns out our situation or our investigation be the investigation that breaks this thing, and our guy ends up being arrested for it, the FBI might have eventually got it, but they wouldn't have got it without us at this point, I don't feel.
		So we would be kind of the catalyst causing the investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So as far as you know, the FBI wasn't onto this guy until you put him onto this guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that right?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		As far as I know, that's how we were led to believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, when you went to the FBI and you said, all right, we've done all this stuff, we've got the story, and you were feeding them information and had been, but you come to them at some point and say, we want to run the story or we're going to run the story, you've got a problem with it, they call you back 20 minutes later and say, no, go ahead and run it.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And they were also asked at that time if, look, are we on the wrong track because we don't want to wrongly accuse or initiate a federal investigation on an individual if we're on the wrong track?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, if we're on the wrong track, tell us that.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		We'd like to back off and, you know, I do surveillance for a living.
		I'd rather get back and watch workers' comp surveillance or something.
		I mean, it's, you know, much safer.
		One, it's normal as far as normal everyday activities.
		And this is out of the norm.
		It's out of the norm both for Jaina, everybody at Channel 4, and myself.
		We were kind of thrust in the middle of this, and being red-blooded Americans, we're not going to give up until we're told to back off, till we're told we're wrong, or until this gentleman's arrested, period.
		We are going to get a resolve on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then the FBI came back to you and, in essence, said, we're not going to tell you you're on the wrong track.
		We're not going to tell you you're on the right track.
		We're just going to not comment, or how did they come back?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Basically, their general term that they use, and I can't blame them for them at all, is they will neither confirm nor deny.
		They will neither confirm, they will neither deny there is or there isn't.
		They will neither confirm that they're using the tapes we're giving them.
		We can only assume.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, did they express any hesitation that you're going with the story, or Channel 4 is going with the story, might spook the guy?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Not by their words.
		Absolutely not.
		They were, I'm sure, careful in the words they chose, but they basically had no objections with the story and to for us to do what we feel we had to do or for the news channel to do what they feel they had to do and they had no objections.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, without asking you a lot about the person's identity, would it be your impression that if the person you suspect may be John Doe number two is John Doe No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		2, that there might be an international connection to the bombing?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was a yes.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That was a yes.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		My personal professional knowledge in this, if this individual we're videotaping, is involved, my opinion would be a yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would utterly and completely change the nature of the story.
		And also, I might add, Mike, if that would be true, it would increase the danger, or certainly would have, for Jaina and for yourself, at least up until this moment.
		Now, going public in the way you're going public actually may lessen the danger.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's occurred to both of you.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		Yes, without a doubt.
		Without a doubt.
		And that's neither here nor there as far as our motive.
		Our motive is sincere in that we want to do what we want to do.
		I personally know people, relatives of friends of mine, who have been pulled over in more than one state as of within 30 days because they look like John Noel No. 2 and questioned in detail in multiple states.
		Yet, you know, there must be some method to the madness as far as the investigation.
		And I'm not an FBI agent, nor could I be.
		The fact is, you know, by them not questioning him up to this point, clearly to me, we must be on the right track to a point, you know, to a certain truth in what we're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, I'm going to keep pushing, and when I push too far, you just let me know, and I'll back away.
		All right.
		You said if this John Doe number two is John Doe number two, that it would be an international connection.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To what nation?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'd rather not say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		That's where the line came.
		That's fine.
		What I would now like to do, Mike, is to let my audience get involved and ask you questions.
unidentified		Wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, you know, you can handle their questions the way you've handled mine.
		When you get one you can't handle, just say, I'm sorry, I can't answer that, or whatever, and we will understand.
		I mean, you're in a very tough position.
		I sympathize with where you are in this investigation at this point, and I really want to thank you for coming on because this story has been driving me up a tree for days.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That makes two of us heart, I'll tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and more days, I suspect, for you, my friend.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike.
		Let's try a few phone calls, see what happens.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Yeah, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		John Doe, number three, I believe, Mike.
unidentified		Good morning.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		My real name is Bill.
unidentified		I live in Portland, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Portland, all right.
unidentified		K-E-X.
		I tell you, this guy mentioned earlier a lot of nerve.
		Mike, I think you're falsely building the hopes of the families out there in Oklahoma City.
		I hope you got some good grounds to stand on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sir, if you were listening to the last hour, were you?
unidentified		I've been listening to the last 20 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The last 20 minutes.
		That's not enough.
		During the last hour, he described in some great detail the specific grounds he's built this on.
		They've got a lot of witnesses, or several witnesses, who have made detailed, big line-up IDs of this individual.
		So this is not a story wavering on matchsticks.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And if Art, if I can kind of interject something here, too, Bill, to let you know, the channel, the news channel, has had a lot of support from a lot of the families of the victim.
		And they want to know the truth, period, here in Oklahoma.
		Everybody wants to know the truth.
		There's things that, you know, I can't say on the show, but some of the families of some of the victims are involved in certain aspects of this investigation that we're conducting.
		So there's no doubt, you know, these people suffered a great loss, the families, and we really feel for them.
		That's why we're so careful to, you know, second sourcing it isn't good enough.
		We source things three times, four times, as many times as we can source them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Bill, I agree with you that you've got to be careful about the victims' families, but I'll bet one thing, Bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet they want to know the truth, don't you think?
unidentified		Well, we as Americans want to know the truth to the bottom line of this.
		I mean, that was a sad, sad situation, and a lot of involvement in it was pointed fingers in all different directions, and the Americans were the last to be believed to be the ones to be doing it.
		And now we're back to stage one when it originally forecasted of foreign involvement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we think, and I think anyway, and Mike seems to agree, that that could be the reason why, A, the FBI is very cautious about making any move, and B, why other media outlets have been so cautious about picking up on the story.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And that's why I'm hoping that this guy's got all his ducks in a row and all his eyes dotted and his T's crossed before he makes his accusations that they got this guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's actually not making an accusation, Bill.
		Thank you.
		You are turning this information, or have turned it over, to the FBI.
		And if there's any questioning to be done or arresting to be done, it will be the FBI that will do it, right, Mark?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
		Everything that I have not told any, I have not told you in any of this conversation, nothing that has not been made public record via Channel 4 News Channel.
		And before it gets put public record, it is given to the FBI, and it doesn't go on the air without them being let know that they plan to take it on the air and give a blessing or a request not to put it on the air and to go from there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm going to ask another one that's in questionable territory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything yet that Channel 4 has wanted to put on the air that the FBI asked them not to?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I really can't answer that, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because you don't have the knowledge or because you shouldn't?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Because I'd rather not, to be honest with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Ease to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Mike.
		Good morning.
		Oh, Art.
unidentified		This is Craig from Lawton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lawton, Oklahoma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Craig.
unidentified		Mike, are you aware of any of the accusations coming out of KPOC, out of Punka City, that the ATF may have had McVeigh under surveillance before the bombing?
		Have you heard anything about that?
		Running Cross?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Craig, I'd rather not even comment on that.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It's a completely different area here, and I'd rather not say whether if I even know anything about that.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, good work up there.
		Keep it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		And we may have time for one more before the bottom of the hour.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		My question is, does he know if there is a big American connection?
		In other words, was it an American and a foreign agent?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Yeah, that's good.
		Well, I guess the question's answered in a way.
		We already, or the FBI, I'm sure, already thinks they know about the American connection portion of it.
		What you're contending is that this individual, if he is John Doe number two, would mean an international connection.
		So would that mean, Mike, would you be willing to extend that and say that means it's some kind of joint operation?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, where we're at right now with it, as far as our investigation, what the FBI has, I don't know.
		Where we're at, you know, we're just to the point that we have enough eyewitnesses and people that we've been able to source a few times over to really nail him as far as eyewitnesses.
		You know, we have eyewitnesses that without a doubt that we're 100% we back or they back and I back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think you've got the right guy.
		The question is, would that represent a sort of a deal between the devils?
		Is that what you're suspecting?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We're not even at that point in the investigation, or for the simple matter that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll get right back to it after the bottom of the hour break.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
		Goodbye.
		Coast to Coast AM from June
		Goodbye.
		9, 1995.
		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an ongoing presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		My guest is a man named Mike, not his real name.
		He's a private investigator, subcontractor of Channel 4 Television, KFOR, working with Jaina Davis on the story.
		Since the bombing, they think they've got John Doe number two nailed.
		We'll talk to Mike again in a moment.
unidentified		We'll talk to Mike again in a moment.
		You're listening to Arc Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Mike.
		Mike, there are several factions that have come in.
		Here's one, for example, from Rick.
		I'd like to know if Mike has any idea whether John Doe No. 2 may be operating on his own or behalf of another government.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't answer that, Art.
		I really could, and I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I don't know the answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Still got a little feedback here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're getting feedback again.
		All right.
		What will help is if you get real close to that phone and speak up real loud.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay, how's that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Much better.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did Mike keep copies of the data that he gave to the FBI?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you can back up what you claim you've given the FBI with videotape?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Everything that I've told you that I have on videotape or that Jaina Davis gave to, you know, or she has on videotape, we have definitely backed that up a few times over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, from Rebecca in Houston.
		Art, the lack of interest on a national basis still makes me incredibly angry.
		As of last night, I heard the same Texas State Network talk show host refer to you, me I guess, as someone who fell hook, line, and sinker for a hoax.
		The nonchalance of the FBI is incredible.
		They certainly arrested McVay, detained the Michigan guys with less information than a team that they have on the Iraqi National.
		What about those fellows who like to drink that the FBI tracked all over the U.S. and detained?
		It boggles the mind to think they've not detained this fellow.
		This story still stinks.
		Rebecca Houston, is there something about this story to you, Mike, that stinks?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Rebecca, I tell you, I can't say anything stinks about it.
		This is my backyard here.
		And for the simple reason is I have faith in our government.
		I have faith in our federal law enforcement.
		And, you know, I do have faith.
		and I know they're going to do the right thing.
		I know the American people are going to find out who did this.
		It might be a while.
		I hope it's not, because if it's a while, you know, Jaina Davis and I are going to continue our investigation until he's either released, you know, cleared and released by the FBI, or arrested, or whatever.
		We're going to follow this to the end.
		So we want closure.
		We really want closure.
		We're doing it for the closure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mike, I know you can't speak officially for them, but would you say to this point, Channel 4 in Oklahoma City is standing by the details of their story as they have presented your investigation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're standing by it?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, 100%.
unidentified		All right, let's take some more calls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, this is Dave in Monterey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Dave.
unidentified		I just don't know where to begin.
		I think it's dangerously close to yelling fire in a crowded movie theater.
		Notoriously bad are these eyewitness accounts, and that's all that you're substantiating and basing this story on.
		How can you sit there and say that this note, this John Doe No.
		2, was in fact an Iraqi or whatever the news story was?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He hasn't said that.
		They're saying they've identified John Doe No.
		2 based on several independent witnesses picking him out of a substantial lineup.
unidentified		He's backing up K-4's statement that it was an Iraqi colonel in the Army.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now...
unidentified		I'd like him to address that point about being a colonel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's do that.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		As far as the statement of being a colonel, that was not made.
		What we have been able to confirm here in Oklahoma City, through our various information, it has been sourced at more than one individual.
		We source this through people in the knowledge.
		This was not sourced through eyewitnesses.
		This was sourced from people that would be in the know.
		This gentleman was in the Iraqi Army in Desert Storm, for a fact.
		That has been sourced.
		That was one of the things we sourced so thoroughly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you stand by that.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This man was in the Iraqi Army, and I had it that he fought in the war under Saddam Hussein against the United States.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		We have not confirmed rank.
		We do not know.
		We don't know exactly what his military occupational specialty was.
		We do not know.
		We just have confirmed, you know, from people that would be in the know, not somebody that overheard.
		But we've gone to sources and confirmed that he was definitely in the Iraqi Army military and did fight in Desert Storm.
		And he was one of, matter of fact, he was one of the ones that was captured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Mike, there have been a lot of people who have been after me with the same kind of rhetoric that this man just came after you with, that we're, you know, firing a theater, this is a big hoax, you heard Rebecca's facts, and I've been holding on to this story like red meat and pursuing it.
		And, again, I want to thank you for coming on the air and verifying so many aspects of it.
		Let me try this question.
		Mike, what is your opinion of the bomb or bombs theories?
		In other words, two blasts, ten seconds apart, Bob from Roswell, New Mexico.
		Have you touched on that aspect of it at all?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		To be honest with you, Art, I haven't even wanted to go that aspect for this simple reason.
		We're not doing the investigation to find out, you know, the details of it.
		We're just wanting to, you know, there is a missing, at least, you know, it was reported, the FBI has reported, their latest report was they're looking for three to five individuals.
		It's what they last reported here in Oklahoma City.
		And, you know, one of them being this John Doe number two, which, you know, that's the only track we're going on.
		We're not going anywhere else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So the audience then would be well advised to confine their questions to you to your investigation of who you'd believe to be John Doe number two, which is a totally non-trivial manner considering what we think we know about him.
		Wild Card Line 2, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning, Mike and Art.
		I'm in Las Vegas, Nevada, and I threw away my sketches of John Doe number two about three weeks ago when I heard that they had found and questioned the suspected John Doe number two and found that he just happened to be renting some other equipment or doing some other business at the rental place at the same time that McVay was renting the truck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about that, Mike?
unidentified		Do you know anything about that?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Are you trying to touch base there on a certain individual you can name, or you might have lost it.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		There's been so many sightings across the United States that...
unidentified		Well, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, Mike, if you have two phones up in...
unidentified		it would help a lot to hang one up excellent I'm getting to that right now Art getting to that right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What it does is it cuts down the volume that we managed to get on the air, and it's a little marginal anyway, so that'll help a lot if you hang that other one up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, to your knowledge, has the FBI taken the photograph of the person you believe is John Doe number two into the rental agency?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		To my knowledge, I do not know.
		I know that they have taken photographs and done photo lineups.
		Whether there be ones that we have provided them or ones from surveillance tapes, I do not know, but I know they have done photo lineups.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Mike.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		How you doing, gentlemen?
		I was wondering, I didn't hear Freeman at the beginning of the program.
		Was my information right that he was seen with McVay a few days?
		Was that confirmed a few days before the bombing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll tell you what we're going to do, caller.
		We'll go through all that again.
		If I can hold you, Mike, past the top of this next hour, a lot more stations join the network, and there are a lot of people who have joined in the middle of this, and they're going, what the hell are they talking about?
		This sounds important.
		And so we may have to retrench a little bit at the beginning Of the next hour.
		Can you handle that?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art Libertarian Nationalist Aurora, Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Mike, as artists stated a couple nights ago, the national media could cover itself on this by simply reporting it as KFOR has reported, you know, so on and so forth.
		I think their reluctance to touch this at all is what really smells to me.
		And I don't share your faith in our government.
		I think there's something a lot more to this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, yeah, let me rephrase what he said, Mike.
		In the beginning, right after the blast, oh my God, there were reports everywhere.
		CNN would say such and such a television station is reporting the following.
		And even I can understand, for example, NBC, CBS, NBC, CNN, they might all not be able to get the people out in the field to do and cover the investigative work that you've done and verify it all and get it on the air themselves.
		But that certainly has never stopped anybody from reporting what another major network, affiliate radio or television station has just reported.
		And it is odd to me and everybody else that this has been so quiet.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I just, like we were talking earlier, Art, the ones that I'm aware of, there's at least nine there that have showed interest.
		And by my being in the news station on a daily basis, there's calls coming in continually all day long.
		Whether these people are wanting to source information and wanting the station to divulge who they are and want to do their own investigation, the sources won't be revealed.
		Okay, look, that's where I think the problem is.
unidentified		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's say I'm Bernard Shaw from CNN, and I come to you and I say, look, Mike, we're a big network.
		We want to run with your story.
		We need to know what you know.
		We need to know about your sources.
		We will keep them as close to the chest as you have.
		I don't know what kind of promises you've made to your sources.
		Maybe you can tell us that, and maybe that's why you can't do it.
		But if I'm Bernie Shaw, what do you tell me?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It's this simple.
		Not only myself, but Gina Davis herself has guaranteed these people absolute no releasing of any of their information to anybody other than the FBI, period.
		And it's unconditional.
		We cannot waver from that.
		Our integrity and our word is all we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I commend you for standing on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then I all of a sudden think I do understand the hesitation of some of the major networks to go because you can't give them, you really can't give them what you've got, can you?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No, sir.
		They'd have to be going on our word.
		And there's been so much disinformation and misinformation out there from, you know, everything out there already that has been reported this, that, and the other.
		And, you know, there was the problem with the big report on arrests soon to be made out in eastern Oklahoma in a religious cult area of Ego Tam City.
		And that was all over the press.
		And there's just been so much misinformation out there.
		I personally, I believe they're just kind of getting a little skeptical and just watching what goes.
		You know, I don't blame them for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's see.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art Meister.
		Where are you, sir?
		This is Sky in New Orleans.
		Good morning, Mike.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		First off, I also would like to say I salute your fidelity to professionalism.
		That's good to hear in your line of work.
		Basically, mine's kind of a double question, but I'd like to know if, one, do they know how or do you know how McVay and this guy here first got their contact with each other and started seeing each other?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And secondly, the genesis of their relationship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you comment on that at all?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, I can't.
		At this point, I will tell you that is actively part of our investigation.
		We're trying to track that down.
		We're working diligently at it.
		And, you know, that's, of course, more detailed as far as the investigative standpoint and time-consuming than it was to do surveillance on this gentleman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's deeper background.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Well, now just on John Doe number two, are you aware, and not only any details, but are you or your people aware of him having any kind of contact to and from his home country since he's been watched?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		To be honest with you, I'd rather not even comment with that.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'd rather not comment on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Every time you say that, of course, everybody in the audience is going to be inclined to think that's kind of like saying, hey, here, read between lines a little bit.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And that's not why I'm saying it.
		I don't want to put any taint whatsoever towards this man's guilt or not.
		It's just this gentleman looks like number two.
		There's plenty of eyewitnesses, credible eyewitnesses.
		Many have been already interviewed by the FBI prior to them knowing who this gentleman was.
		You know, I'm not going to...
		It's not a thing of country to us.
		It's bottom line.
		I don't care if it's my next-door neighbor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where it goes doesn't matter.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It does not matter.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		The point is, is he or isn't he involved?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but Mike, you have international connections.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Mike, but you well understand that if there's an international connection, the entire complexion of this story changes drastically.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, it keeps me up at night.
		I mean, in Oklahoma, it's almost 3 o'clock in the morning.
		I mean, yes, it's a continual factor, and that's why we're so careful to multiple source what our investigation reveals for that factor, because I do not want to be involved in anything, and neither does the news channel nor Jaina Davis, that would resemble anything other than 100% factual information that we can prove.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure Jana's feeling a lot of pressure.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no doubt.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And she's such a tenacious reporter that she's a good team member to be on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time callers, area 702-727-1222.
		No, no, no.
		No name.
		No last name, sir.
		We're going to try this again.
		We don't allow last names on the air.
		So give us your first name and tell us where you're calling from.
unidentified		My name is Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		I'm calling from Kingman, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Mark.
unidentified		I grew up with Mike Fortier, who was Army Buddy with Tim McVay.
		And I was just wondering how he is connected in this, if you know anything that's going on with Tim as far as, you know, he hasn't been charged with anything yet.
		He's supposed to testify.
		I was just wondering how he plays in all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mike Fortier?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any comments at all, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Basically, as far as I can even comment on that, that I would be comfortable in doing is I did a little surveillance on Mr. Fortier when he was in town, confirmed he was in town.
		Where it went from there, basically he was back in Kingman, Arizona.
		I have not been able to, nor has Jane, connect our John Doe No. 2 lookalike to Mr. Fortier, if that's what you're asking.
		There's nothing in our investigation so far that has connected him to Mr. Fortier or even to Kingman, Arizona for that matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mike, let me ask you for a percentage.
		With all the investigative work you've done, this man that you say looks like a John Doe number two, from a personal point of view, what percentage of chance do you think it is that you really have John Doe number two?
		How high is the chance?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Put me on the spot here.
		I could tell you this, compared to everybody else that has been questioned as John Doe number two, the likeliness and the necessity there to me that he needs to be questioned is 100%.
		There is more leaning towards him.
		Even today it was broadcast on Channel 4, some surveillance tape taken.
		Everybody's been saying the actual John Doe number two has a tattoo on the upper left arm, which would coincide with the latest profile, which was the left side of his face.
		Okay?
		Which would make sense if he was on surveillance video.
		You'd get the left arm with the left side of the face if he was driving a vehicle, correct?
		So as of today, up until this point, our guy has worn nothing but long-sleeved shirts.
		So as of yesterday, actually, we finally got some good, ideable close-up videotape.
		That was put on the air of this gentleman's left arm, and it's clear as day, a tattoo.
		So, I mean, I'm 100% convinced that this gentleman has to be questioned and either cleared or charged, period.
		I am convinced of that 100%.
		Whether it's John Doe number two, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's say, just for the sake of it, that this guy's out there listening right now or watching Channel 4's reports, which I imagine he would be.
		I mean, he's got to know.
		He's got to know that he's the one and that the investigation's beginning to get awfully close and awfully warm, if not from the FBI, then from the media.
		And isn't that going to spook him?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We're the only media, or Channel 4 is the only media in town that knows who he is.
		That's it.
		I mean, there's no doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but Channel 4 is saying so, and you're here this morning saying so.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's, let's put it this way, Art.
		I assume, you know, we have him under surveillance.
		I assume if this guy packs up and wants to drive out and leave, I can assure you that if my investigators or myself sees that, there's going to be plenty of phone calls made to people to try to put a quick hiatus on it if it happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, in fact, of course, if he's under surveillance by the FBI, obviously, if he tried to flee, they'd too be on him.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		And if he's not guilty, why flee?
		And, you know, who knows?
		Who really knows on that?
		Can't get in his head.
		I wish I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that the FBI's in effect telling you to go ahead and broadcast, telling Channel 4 to go ahead and broadcast, might have been, from their point of view, a good idea because John Doe No. 2 suspect, if he did see the broadcast, would probably pack his bags and begin heading for parts unknown.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		You know, we're assuming this man has the television set.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you kind of have to know a little bit more of the investigation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If not, maybe he's got a radio, huh?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that could be.
		That could be.
		It's just, you know, there's a lot of factors in there that we can assume and interject in there that I don't know.
		I mean, to be honest with you, Art, this whole investigation, up to the point where it was breaking, made absolutely no sense.
		Then all of a sudden, it completely fell together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and that's where we'll pick up when we come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay put, we'll be right back.
unidentified		You'll listen to Art Bell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
		A replay of Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
		A replay of Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
		A replay of Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
		You're listening to Arkbell somewhere in time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk radio, live, uncensored, unscreened.
		And this morning we're doing something I think very important.
		As you know, for the last several days, we've been going round and round and round, following a couple of faxes that arrived here regarding a story on KFOR, New Channel 4, in Oklahoma City.
		And I'm going to now have to, and excuse the earlier audience will have to excuse me, as there are so many affiliates now joining that we've got to retrench just a little bit.
		I'll try and do it as quickly as possible.
		Basically, we got this facts, and here's how it started.
		Art, the lead story on Oklahoma City's KFOR News Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock, actually after the basketball game, this is in the initial night of the broadcast, was a report revealing the identity of John Doe, number two.
		Reporter Gaina Davis has worked on this story since one week after the tragedy.
		Davis presented witnesses who wished to remain shadowed with voice disguised who saw McVay and John Doe number two several days before the attack.
		One witness claims that the pair drank beer at her bar in northwest Oklahoma City.
		She says John Doe number two spoke with an Iranian or Iraqi accent.
		Actually, that's been corrected a little by my guest.
		That he had some sort of accent or was difficult to understand.
		And that they spoke an Arabic language.
		This also may not be so.
		Further research by Channel 4 identified John Doe number 2 through surveillance photos obtained by local businesses near 10th and Penn.
		This also is incorrect, but there are indeed surveillance photos, which of course is two and a half blocks from the AP Murrow building where it used to be.
		The report showed some three shots of John Doe number two.
		This is apparently now the Channel 4 story.
		It showed three shots of John Doe number two, but scrambled the face as he has not yet been arrested or charged.
		Research done by KFOR has revealed John Doe number two's name and nationality, but they did not release the name at the FBI's request.
		The report did say the man was an Iraqi national who served in the Iraqi military during the Gulf War, Desert Storm, under Saddam Hussein.
		The report also said the man is and has been under FBI surveillance and that he has a tattoo on his left arm.
		That was the facts.
		This morning, I received yet another facts, more on John Doe number two from KFOR.
		As a result of Wednesday night's broadcast, a new witness has come forward to KFOR.
		This witness places John Doe number two four blocks from the bomb site, seconds after the blast, speeding away in a brown pickup truck.
		The witness said she ran from her office after hearing the blast, was almost run down by the brown Chevy pickup.
		She got a real clear view of the driver, John Doe number two.
		She describes his look as a very angry look, full of hate.
		After she learned of the bombing, she felt this man was involved.
		This witness said she recognized the man in the KFOR report, even though his identity was hidden by computer graphic.
		Since Wednesday, she's been with KFOR and has identified the picture of John Doe No. 2 that KFOR has.
		The witness also said she's been interviewed by the FBI the day of the bombing, but when asked if she saw a tattoo on the upper left arm, she told the FBI no.
		KFOR then showed some full-body pictures their reporter had taken of John Doe number two.
		In one of them, he's wearing a tank top, and when they zoomed into his upper left arm, you can clearly see the tattoo.
		Now, our network, in fact, I personally contacted the manager of KFOR television earlier in the day.
		I sent him a facts listing all of our affiliate radio stations so that he might understand that I'm for real.
		He was polite.
		We talked.
		I suggested he facts or call me so we could get an interview with Jana Davis, the reporter who broke this story.
		He said it sounded interesting.
		I see what he would do or could do, and I heard nothing.
		Our network made many valiant attempts and talked to many people at KFOR television during the day.
		Nobody was willing to do an interview.
		Jana Davis is not willing to do an interview, and you may shortly understand why, or perhaps you won't.
		Shortly before airtime, I connected with a person we're going to call Mike, who is a private investigator, a subcontract employee of Channel 4 Television, KFOR, in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, he says.
		And he has been giving us as many details of the investigation as he's been able to.
		And what I'm going to ask Mike to do now, or in a moment rather, is to kind of retrench and tell us again exactly what it is his investigation began with Janet Davis shortly after the bomb went off.
		What that investigation has revealed about the man they believe is John Doe number two.
unidentified		All of that coming up in just a moment.
		Looking for the truth?
		You'll find it on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie.
		You know what?
		We are a wall to them.
		And I have a feeling that the wall is getting stronger.
		And it's going to be very tough for them to bust through it.
		But I want to warn people, because the global controllers realize power is slipping from their hands, they're going to really try to do whatever they can to try to get us back in line.
		And like a Bucking Bronco, all we got to do is throw the New World Order off our back.
		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The End Mike, again, we're back on the air and I'm sorry I have to retrench so much here, but we've got a brand new audience at this hour.
		And so as I just capsulized, and believe me, it's only a capsule of what's occurred in the last two days, because I've been really just up a tree with this.
		If you would please, you're an investigator.
		You've been working with a private investigator.
		Mike is not your real name.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't expect you to give your real name.
		You've been working with Jaina Davis since the beginning of this.
		By the way, I haven't even asked you this yet.
		How did you and Jaina get together on this?
		Can you talk about that at all?
		In other words, how did you join forces?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I've done work for detective agency, of course, here in Oklahoma City.
		And I've done work for Channel 4 for the last four years.
		So there's always been that business relationship there.
		And Jaina is a personal friend of my wife and I. And we've worked other stories together.
		And we just kind of, you know, she's tenacious, I'm tenacious, and that's what it takes on a case like this.
		And it was just natural.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's a perfect answer.
		And I appreciate it.
		Now, Mike, if you would capsulize for us how you came to the point where you are right now on my program this morning.
		In other words, all this investigation.
		What have you done?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Basically, we've taken some information, as checked out leads, as people call the news channel up.
		We've tried to confirm, you know, tried to see if they're good leads or not.
		We did add a lot of bad leads, a lot of bad things that we could definitely learn were false.
		And we stuck with what we could prove and what we could confirm and triple source and source more than once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the witnesses that Channel 4 put on television, for example, in Shadow, I've got to run you back through this.
		You sat them down with as many as 20 photographs in a lineup, and you had them pick out, using very careful methods, you had them pick out, and they did pick out this one photograph of this person you believe to be John Doe number two.
		They picked this out, right?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		More than one, actually.
		We showed them approximately, depending on the witnesses, but on average we showed 40 to 50 pictures.
		And out of 40 to 50 pictures, there were only approximately six of those which were of our John Doe number two lookalike.
		So the odds of them not picking him were greater than the odds of them picking him.
unidentified		Of course.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, every one of the witnesses picked him out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're pretty confident then about that aspect of it.
		In other words, this is the same guy.
		Each one of the witnesses picked out, right?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So now you think you're on the track of John Doe number two.
		John Doe number two, you have verified for us, was a member of the Iraqi Army.
		Is that correct?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, that is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A member of the army who fought against U.S. forces in Desert Storm.
		Correct.
		And you have gathered all of this video information, and I presume some stills, and you've been doing surveillance on this John Doe No.
		2, and you've given all of this stuff to the FBI.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The FBI, and then you went to the FBI, I guess Channel 4 did, and you said you were in on those conversations and said, look, we want to go to air with this.
		We want to broadcast this.
		You guys have any problem with it?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
unidentified		And they said, they said, do it.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		They said they had no objections to them airing the show or airing any of the pieces.
		Before each piece is put on the air, the FBI is contacted and let know what it's going to be put and give them a chance to say, hey, don't put that on the air.
		It might screw up an investigation or you guys are completely on the wrong track.
		And one thing you have to realize here, your listeners have to realize, is the news station that's doing this, the ratings, Nielsen ratings just came in.
		They swept it in Oklahoma City.
		They're number one in every category at every time.
		So you're dealing with the highest credibility as far as media in town.
		And they have that reputation.
		They are not going to put something that is not, you know, dead solid.
		They don't feel in back 100%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay then, Mike.
		Again, and we've got to retrench this one too.
		Having said what you just said about their credibility, it brings back the question, my God, this is the NBC affiliate radio station in the very city where the bombing occurred breaking a story, saying, look, here we think we have John Doe number two.
		We think there's an international connection.
		We think that he fought in the war against America.
		We think all of this, and not one major network, NBC, CBS, and so forth, has yet picked it up.
		And now you've got a list of those who have now picked up the story and it's beginning to grow.
		Read that list again.
		Who's picked it up now?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me grab my list here.
		But the ones that I'm aware of that have actually have copies or the transcript or have copies of the pieces.
		First is New York Times, AP Wire, UPI Radio Network, Dallas Morning News, and as of tonight, WNBC, the NBC affiliate New York City, ran the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Arizona Republic, KFYI Radio, CNN, NBC News FeedWire, and several, and I can't name them, but several high-ranking senators on the Hill have called and asked for copies of all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many of the organizations that you named that you know of have actually run the story?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'm not aware of the I know I know WNBC did for certain.
		You have to realize, Art, we're still doing our end of the investigation.
		I'm not the news guy.
		I'm the PI guy.
		So I'm out there in the field just making sure, you know, in the craziness is that it's starting to snowball effects, starting to hit here.
		You know, we keep, Jane and I keep where we're at as far as the investigation.
		Don't lose sight of it.
		I personally, I don't care.
		I hope everybody gets it and wants it because the truth needs to come out.
		One, two, This is America, freedom of the press.
		Everybody has a right to know because everybody in that building that died, the families that lost their loved ones, they're all Americans.
		And they didn't just blow up part of Oklahoma City.
		They blew up part of the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They sure did.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And it's a crime against the people of the United States, period.
		And no matter what city it was, Art, I don't, you know, heaven forbid this ever happened again.
		Or, you know, I wouldn't wish this on any city.
		We'd be there to investigate it.
		It just so happened that it was in our backyard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much investigation, how many hours do you think you put in on this so far, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Easily, easily 12 to 18 hours a day since about the third day of the bombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has Jaina been with you through most of it, or have you been on your own a lot?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We do everything as a team.
		She does her news end of it, putting the patch together.
		I help her with the facts on the scripts and what have you.
		We're a team.
		She knows this is one case where the right hand definitely knows what the left hand's doing.
		If I'm doing my investigations on my own, she knows where I'm at, what I'm doing.
		I know where she's at, what she's doing.
		We coordinate everything.
		We do everything together as a team, you know, when possible.
		We interview everybody together.
		There's never a question, and there's always a third party, like a cameraman or another individual there to witness, and it's always on film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike, for the late audience, I need to ask again.
		I know that you've obviously communicated frequently with Jaina.
		What is her attitude about your doing this this morning?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Didn't ask her art, and you're assuming I've talked to her since.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		Well, I presume that she knew about it before you did it, and I was wondering if she was apprehensive about it, thought it was okay, or I can't talk to her.
		No comment on that, okay.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No comment at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm going to repeat the question I asked earlier, as best as you can explain it.
		Why is Jana refusing interviews?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No one says she's refusing them.
		I think it comes down to a question of, you know, you get so many people wanting something, and until people really know your motives and what the heck's going on, everybody's apprehensive.
		You know, if this turns out to, no matter what happens here on our investigation, this is still the biggest crime story, you know, that there is right now.
		And it's terrible, and it's the biggest story around, and everybody and their dog that's involved in media wants this story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're right, and I'm glad to be getting it this morning, Mike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, so this is Kevin from Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin, from Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Kevin, speak up good and loud.
unidentified		The fellow with the phone number.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I was wanting to ask him, could he elaborate on the report I heard here about the second Middle Eastern man who was talking to McVeigh and John Doe number two and was seen by a couple of these different witnesses talk, and I believe this is where the Arabic came in.
unidentified		These two were talking in Arabic with John Doe, John Doe number two, and this other man was talking in Arabic while McVay was standing near.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, in other words, that raises the prospect of John Doe number three.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's clear something.
		Let's go ahead and clear something up.
		There was a second Middle Eastern-looking man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Individual.
		Individual.
		Okay, let's just leave it as individual.
		Seen with John Doe number two and McVeigh.
		Now, it was reported that McVeigh and these two individuals were seen.
		It was also reported on one occasion, and it was sourced more than once, and it just slipped my mind to even mention it, that McVeigh was seen speaking a foreign language, but the individual did not know what the language was and did not recognize the language.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they characterize it as Arabic sounding?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I don't recall how she characterized it.
		I think she didn't recognize the language, period.
		So that's all I can say and be honest with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do you think, Mike, then obviously there is a John Doe number three?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the latest reports, I don't know if it's the last report, you've got to think it's 3 in the morning here.
		My mind is getting weak.
		But one of the latest reports from the FBI was the fact that they were looking for three to five individuals, possibly.
		So there's really no telling how many people are actually involved in this thing.
		It's kind of scary to even try to put it together, to be honest with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the further you go, Mike, the more foreign it seems to get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a fair statement?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It's fair to say that the only thing really fair to say, or to be honest with you, would be the fact that the guy we are looking at is of Iraqi dissent, period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		But what I mean is, when you refer then to there having been another individual, foreign individual, who spoke with what you suspect to be John Doe No.
		2, that was definitely in a foreign language.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And you must not have Kami also then.
		McVeigh was also seen speaking in a foreign language.
		She just could not pick out the language.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
		All right.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Mike.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, this is Joanne from Pillsboro, Oregon, listening on KEX.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Joanne.
unidentified		And I had like a two-part question.
		All right.
		First of all, I was wondering if Mike thought there was still possibly any significance to the date that the bombing happened, that it was on the anniversary of the Waco tragedy, or it was just coincidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything on the date?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		You know, all I hear is coincidence.
		I mean, our investigation, the date has absolutely nothing to do with it, whether it have been that day, Christmas Eve.
		It's tempting to take that date and assume that there's a reason for that date, and there might be, but we don't know.
		We have nothing in our investigation that, you know, there's nothing.
		As far as we're concerned, so far, the guy we have under surveillance, we've found absolutely no tie to any Waco's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To date, yeah, so there you are now.
unidentified		Okay, and I was wondering if either you, Art, or Mike could possibly speculate on either those in the FBI or those above the FBI having a motive for delaying the truth of this information.
unidentified		I know that they've kind of been milking it to anti-militia and gun control and stuff like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes, and we speculated, really I did, and Mike sort of agreed with me earlier that a lot of people may feel stung by this, the FBI with their thinking that it was foreign in the beginning, the media itself thinking it was foreign, and so they might be reluctant to come back to a story that might say, gee, maybe it was foreign.
		Fair to say, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Fair to say.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I definitely would not speculate on anything as far as that goes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, stay right where you are.
		30 more minutes and we'll be done.
		Mike, a PI, on the job in Oklahoma City.
		Back in a moment.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
		Goodbye.
		Music
		Music Music
		Music Music Music
		Music
		Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell somewhere in Time.
		Donuts program originally aired June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		My guest is a man named Mike.
		Not his real name.
		A private investigator.
		Working, he says, with Jaina Davis on the crime story of the decade.
		There's no question about it.
		In a moment, we'll get back to him.
		He's putting a good cloture on this week of talk radio.
		What a story it is.
unidentified		What a story it is.
		Streamlink, the audio subscription service of Coast to Coast AM, has a new name, Coast Insider.
		You'll still get all the same great features for the same low price.
		The package includes podcasting, which automatically downloads shows for you, and the iPhone app.
		You'll also get our amazing download library of three full years of shows.
		That's over a thousand shows for you to collect and enjoy.
		If you're a fan of Coast, you won't want to be without Coast Insider.
		Visit CoastofCoastAM.com to sign up.
		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Mike, are you there?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, you're a real trooper, you know, for staying up this way with us.
		This really, really needed to get out, Mike, and I guess that's one of the reasons you're here.
		We all want the truth.
unidentified		Correct, correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And right now, the truth, as your investigation has shown, is leading in a very, very different direction than anything any of us have thought for a long time now.
		And I think, again, that accounts for the reluctance on a lot of people's part to begin going down this path again.
		But your evidence seems strong.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I tell you, it's beyond strong.
		As far as we're going on our investigation, Art, you just do the investigation and keep an unbiased, you know, objective view.
		And then, you know, after a day, you're looking and you're looking at all your sources.
		And as an investigator, I kind of have to step back once in a while and regroup in my thoughts and my thinking for this.
		It's hard to imagine that if our John Doe No. 2 lookalike ends up being arrested and charged for this and say ultimately convicted for this.
		I don't want to convict the man, but who's to say?
		Then just the scope and the reality is just starting to set in, not only with myself, but with Gaina Davis, because we've been able to source so many things on this that we have to catch ourselves and really grab on and realize that we're, you know, either way this goes, if it goes by the wayside, it was a hell of an investigation, and we were very thorough, fine.
		If it goes the way, you know, it looks to be going to me, then, you know, I just can't imagine the scope.
		And, you know, I was trying to compare it to something, you know, relative to this.
		And the only thing I can almost think of would be like the Bernstein Woodward-Watergate deal.
		I mean, and I would think this is a hell of a lot higher in scope, you know, personally in my mind than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, Mike, in its own way, every bit as big.
		Now, I'm going to mention this, and I wonder if it's occurred to you, Mike.
		I'd heard there was a $2 million reward leading to the arrest and conviction of, or something like that, of John Doe number two.
		Are you aware of that?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We're aware of that, correct.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It hasn't crossed our minds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that end up being a million for Jaina and a million for Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I wouldn't even fandom it.
		My luck never goes that way, but I would tell you, Art, we have discussed, you know, if that possibility, and we've already, if we would get anything out of it, we've already decided that we would split it evenly amongst the witnesses that came forward, period.
		And that would be that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There might be some, have you already, have you made the witnesses aware of that?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I tell you what, I take that back.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We've made one witness awareness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One witness awareness.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We've gotten real close with one witness and one of the primary witnesses that just put us on the road to this direction.
		And we've made that person aware that, look, you know, if this breaks, it's yours.
		The other ones, they have no idea.
		And to be honest, I'd rather keep them out of that knowledge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you just want to try to be sure, I suppose, that you don't have a monetary consideration for testimony.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, hi, Ark.
unidentified		Hey, this is Jimmy on K-R-A-E in Cheyenne.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cheyenne, Wyoming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I want to ask three quick questions.
		All right.
		Okay, one, if this is the guy, why is he still there?
		Two, if this is the guy, how come the FBI hasn't picked him up yet?
		And three, who stole the 3,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from that farm store a couple weeks ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, let's see.
		If this is the guy, why is he still there?
		Any guesses, Mike?
		In other words, why hasn't he split for the hills?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		If that's the case, I mean, why hasn't he left up to this point?
		I mean, the stories have been run on this thing since Wednesday.
		I don't know.
		You know, I really can't get in this man's mind.
		I really wish I could.
		There's things in this investigation I cannot say, but I can tell you for a fact that I have personally, when seen this gentleman, when he thought anybody was looking at him anywhere in public, he covers his face.
		I mean, I don't know.
		I can't get into his mind.
		Man, I wish I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, why hasn't the FBI moved, picked him up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Best guess?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I think the scope of the investigation is wider than just him.
		You know, when you think the last report was anywhere from three to five individuals, Or in their own investigation, possibly find the brains behind it, what have you, and go from there.
		That's all I can think on that.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And caller, the last question was about a shipment of ammonium nitrate.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Somebody stole 3,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from a farm store in Oklahoma about two weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About two weeks ago.
		All right.
		Well, that's after the event.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I'm aware of the report of it.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		i don't know i mean as and you know my only opinion on that as any All right.
unidentified		Hold me.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Never mind.
		Sorry.
		I thought I heard something at my front door.
		It had me worried there.
		My opinion, as in any other crime or what have you that has happened in the past, you know, I don't know.
		Maybe, you know, maybe it's an idea.
		It gave somebody some sick individual or group of individuals.
		I have no idea.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is more ground that we've covered earlier, but your possible visitor at the door brought it to mind, and that is your safety and that of Jana's as well.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It is my dog at the window.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		My goodness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's good.
		Glad to hear it.
		But in fact, if there are deep international connections to this story, in the early stages of your investigation, Mike, there certainly would have been great personal danger for the two of you, and I'm sure that occurred to you.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it has, and we discussed it.
		We feel that since it's come out on TV, if there turns out to be, I think we've helped our, you know, helped make it more broad and more aware.
		And I think we've helped our chances on safety by coming out, to be completely honest with you, personally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, oh, I couldn't agree more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First-time caller line, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Wichita.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wichita, Kansas, all right?
unidentified		Yes, and I'd like to find out if Mike knows this person that they think is number two.
		Would he have been out of the area today at all that he knows of?
		Like I'm saying visiting or traveling or visiting what you're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, was he out of Oklahoma City?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about the day that has just passed, last 24 hours?
unidentified		Yes, just yesterday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any comment?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I can tell you, I know as of early in the morning, as of yesterday, early morning, till about 5.30 that I am personally aware of, he was in the Oklahoma City metro area, so that's all I can comment on that.
unidentified		Up until about 5.30?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		That's when I personally pulled off surveillance.
unidentified		Okay, just wondered, had a visitor in the shop where I work yesterday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, ma'am.
		Well, the answer is obviously apparently not who you thought it might be.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hello, Art, calling from San Diego.
		Two quick questions.
		First, Mike, KFOR-TV has a homepage on the World Wide web on the internet.
		However, it has not been updated since May 29th.
		Is there any chance that you know of that some of this material you've been generating, even the transcripts of the broadcast in question, will be put up there anytime soon for a worldwide audience?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		To be honest with you, that's out of my realm.
		I have no idea.
		I'm just a little lonely PI that does the surveillance and investigation.
		As far as the news end, I don't handle any of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mike, has it basically been you and Jaina, or do you have people that work for you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has it been even a further group effort than we're aware of?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It's been a complete news channel effort.
		There's been team coverages because Jaina can't cover every angle.
		There's been other reporters covering other sections of it.
		As far as the investigation on number two, it's basically been Jaina, myself, and another reporter named Brad Edwards, who's a very diligent and experienced reporter.
		He's been working on it also.
		But it has been a group effort.
		I have employees, but to be completely honest with you, I want to keep my employees completely out of this and not put them in any possible harm way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In harm's way, yeah.
		I want to give you a chance to respond to the people that are saying this is some big hoax and Channel 4 and you and Jaina and the whole group are doing nothing but perpetrating a hoax.
		It's such a horrible, terrible allegation to make, and I don't believe it for one second.
		But what would you say to them, Mike?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I would put it this way.
		It's our backyard.
		There would be absolutely nothing for myself or the news channel to gain if it was anything but 100% something we would stand by.
		They're already the number one news channel in this area.
		Why would they do a hoax?
		They're already at number one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And why would they put all this at risk?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Their reputation would be at risk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can assume, just like Woodward and Berdstein, way back when, with the Post, there must have been some pretty serious sit-downs between yourself, Jaina, and the management before this thing went to air, right?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Art, these still go on daily.
		We do our checks.
		I know management does their own checks.
		I do my personal checks.
		Jaina does her own.
		It is a team effort, and everybody is 100%.
		I mean, News Channel 4 stands behind Jaina, our investigation, the story, 100%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're not taking anything back, right?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not, because everything has been checked so thoroughly before it ever got to that point.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		There's so much of this art that you don't even know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And once it, if it breaks, you just heard a fraction of it, and the most interesting part is still what I can't tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I imagine that easily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello?
		Hello.
		I'm Fred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, where are you calling from?
unidentified		San Antonio.
		All right.
		I'm curious about the status of the Brown pickup truck.
		Do you know where it is, Mike?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell the story of the Brown pickup truck and then tell us what you know, Mike, about where it might be now?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
		I can tell you that within minutes after the bombing on April 19th, there was an all-points bulletin put out, which was broadcast on KF4R TV, for a brown pickup, late model, smoked windows, tinted windows, and a smoke-colored bug screen with at least two Middle Eastern-looking male occupants.
		That went on for a few hours, then for some reason it was taken off the APB.
		There were numerous, you know, over scanner traffic, you hear numerous people being pulled over in brown trucks.
		It kind of disappeared after a day or so.
		It kind of fell off the media.
		Then it was kind of brought back into the picture when they originally, the media or the FBI originally started investigating Fortier and said his truck, that the cream-colored one, had ammonium nitrate in it, and then it was kind of thrust back into the picture.
		So that made us wonder, and we went back and we went from there.
		We don't know where the truck's at.
		I personally don't.
		I know Jaina doesn't know.
		We can tell you with the new eyewitness that came forward in fear and was scared, but it was something she felt in her heart she had to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Audience needs to know this is a new witness they're hearing about right now, one who was damn near hit by this brown pickup truck, and she saw the driver, and she has now ID'd that driver, identified that driver to Mike and to KFOR as the suspect that all these other witnesses have confirmed is the suspect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct, Mike?
unidentified		Correct.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		And she came forward after the Wednesday, the initial airing on where KFOR decided to go ahead and put the pictures up, but mosaic the face out.
		She recognized him by hair and said, that looks like the hair.
		And before we ever did the lineup, Gina did an in-depth, probably hour and a half interview with the woman where she described this guy to detail.
		This is well before ever seeing the pictures.
		And then when the pictures came out, she picked out six out of probably 40, I think it's 45 to 50 photos, six of which were of our number two look alike.
		The others were which of different American, Middle Eastern looking men, you know, various men.
unidentified		And she picked the six of this guy out.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		One of which the strongest resemblance you might recall are the most strongest, the most current composite drawing was that left side profile.
		Well, in my surveillance video, I have a perfect left side profile of this number two lookalike.
		And if you superimpose one image, if you superimpose the steel shot from the video to the composite drawing, as Jaina has done, it is eerie.
		The outline, the nose, the brow.
		And if you recall on the profile, if you look at John Doe number two's ears, they're kind of slanted and lower to the left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Almost the way Alfred Hitchcock used to walk into the shadow of his own image.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Right, and he has offset ears are odd on the composite.
		It is an eerie, eerie likeness.
		It's something you have to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, for the audience, your presence with me this morning is because of the talk on this station, on this network, I should say, over the last couple of days and the powers that be have consented in your being here, correct?
unidentified		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Oh, thank you for taking my call.
unidentified		Let me get my radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		I'm calling from Oakland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you're going to have to speak up good and loud.
unidentified		Okay.
		First of all, I heard a couple of callers called into CNN.
		Has anyone called you and told you that?
		And asked about it and gave your name and said that they heard it on your show.
		And they were asking if CNN had heard anything.
		In fact, there were two callers that called in CNN.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now they've heard a lot more, haven't they?
unidentified		Of course.
		And the only other thing I want to say to you, and please take this from my heart because I worry about you because you're so important to us.
		One thing that you might think about is this terrorist bill that just passed and the way that they're claiming people are malicious, please be careful because we do need you.
		And I don't really want to ask any questions, but to our audience, please don't get emotional and let the regular course of the law take its way because we need this man.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		There is no other way for it to occur.
		And what Mike is trying to do is to assist the course of the law taking its proper course, right, Mike?
unidentified		That is it.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		We just want to get to the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you've turned everything, everything, over to the FBI.
		There's a good question.
		Is there anything you've held back at all?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		Absolutely not.
		Matter of fact, we have turned absolutely everything that we can't see.
		If we see something that, well, there could be a tie, we keep it in our packet.
		We might not get to use it.
		We still turn it over to them, even though it might not have been on TV.
		And there's quite a bit that has not been put on the show public yet that they do have.
		So we're cooperating 100%.
		They have our assurances on that.
		They can call us anytime and they have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you've alluded to how much bigger the story is and all that we don't know and that you're unable to tell us.
		Can you tell me this?
		When, in your best estimation, will some of these larger events begin to be public?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		I will tell you this.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		If number two is taken, if number two lookalike is taken into for questioning or arrested, they will be put public then.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Mike.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		Yes, who is this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Art Bell.
unidentified		Art?
		Yes.
		How can you, when you're not talking on the team?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, ma'am, I don't have much time here, so.
unidentified		I want to tell you that this private detective is telling the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm quite certain he is, ma'am.
unidentified		Because I heard this the day after, not the private detective, but about the okay, you want to hear this?
unidentified		I've been trying to get you since after the day of the bombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to have to do this very quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please go ahead.
unidentified		I'm going okay.
		I was channel hopping.
		You know, it was 3, it was now 1.30.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're running out of time.
unidentified		I found Pat Robinson.
		Never watch him.
		I stopped at the channel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've got to go.
		I'm sorry.
		She's just not making her point quickly enough.
		Mike, we're running out of time here, and I just, I don't know how to thank you.
		It's been a very difficult several days for me, and I can only imagine many weeks now for yourself and for Gina.
		Is there anything you want to tell everybody out there as we wind this up?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
		Basically, just to remember, it's not a country issue.
		It's not a nationality issue.
		It's an issue of a crime.
		We're not for people not to look at it as somebody from another country possibly could be involved in this.
		It's not that.
		It's just about justice, period.
		And no matter who might be, like I said earlier, Art, if it was my neighbor, it wouldn't matter to me.
		I mean, it's nothing but about the truth.
		And I wanted to come on the show because some comments were made and some things were being made that were untrue.
		And I thought, well, if you're going to go ahead and talk about it, you might as well talk about the truth because that's how things get twisted out.
		And you're the only talk show that we've talked in depth, you know, period, about.
		And your listeners would appreciate that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do appreciate it.
		We're going to stay on this story.
		It's obvious.
		You're going to stay on this story.
		And, Mike, I'll stay in touch with you.
		When more breaks, we'll talk with you again.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Mike.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for your time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time.
		Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
		The End
		The End You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks tonight, an ongoing presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot to digest, huh, folks?
		That was some three hours.
		I will take comments on what's been heard.
unidentified		You're welcome to say whatever you like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This being an unscreened talk show, you know, within legal bounds and no bad language and all that, but beyond that, you may comment as you will on the previous three hours, and I'm sure that you will have comments.
		It provided some satisfaction for me in being able to draw some sort of closure and understanding of what we've been talking about for the last several days.
		It raises incredible issues.
		The possibilities are tremendous.
		It's a gigantic story, and I think you've just heard as much as there is to hear on it.
		Render your own judgments.
		Now, some other news, and then we'll get the phone lines open again here.
		I thought you should hear this.
		Came in in the last half hour.
		Hi, Art.
		I know it's a bit off subject, but I thought you ought to be interested.
		I just talked to my wife, who is working at the moment.
		She is a 911 dispatcher.
		I know the job, sir.
		They have been receiving numerous calls from people in the vicinity of Reno, Nevada, all reporting an object streaking through the sky, possibly impacting in the Hallelujah Junction area near the Nevada-California border.
		The calls she received were from points all around the Reno area, including Geiger Grade, Mount Rose, areas in Lassen County.
		It was described as meteor-like, and two of the reports claimed a yellow flash as it disappeared over the mountains.
		I was wondering if any of your other listeners in the Reno area have seen an object like this, and if so, could they relate what they observed over the air?
		That's from Jim in Reno.
		Thank you, Jim.
		And so there it is.
		It's out.
		Otherwise, the news of the day is probably, in many respects, less than we have just given you in the last three hours.
		Captain O'Grady, of course, it's wonderful that he's back.
		And the story of how Captain O'Grady was able to hide from the enemy is nothing short of incredible.
		And irrespective of a lot of questions about why his plane was hit by a missile, which, by the way, cut his airplane in half.
		He ejected from the front half of the airplane after the missile cut the aircraft, the F-16, literally in half.
		And he landed, parachuted in, and he hid in some underbrush, ate bugs, drank rainwater, covered himself with dirt, watched five armed Bosnian Serbs come by him within minutes,
		and then successfully hid out for six days, moved only between 12 and 4 in the morning, carefully planned his radio transmissions.
		We'll go to the White House to meet the President Monday.
		The president will, I'm sure, wring every ounce of good publicity out of this.
		The president needs it.
		Newt is in New Hampshire, as I suggested he was.
		Is he a candidate?
		Nobody knows.
		Is he running?
		Nobody knows.
		Will he say no, not exactly?
		Says he's not running, says he's not not running either, so, you know, who knows?
		Newt Gingrich in New Hampshire.
		The Chinese are very upset with Taiwan because of the visit of Taiwan's president.
		Oh, the Chinese are really upset.
		They said, quote, a belligerent act, a wanton wound inflicted on China, almost calling it an act of war.
		Basically, our State Department said, oh, come on.
		I mean, back to the Chinese said, oh, come on.
		You know, it was just a private visit, not a state visit, even if Taiwanese TV portrayed it as a state visit.
		It was not.
		So there's more in the news, but what we've had on in the last three hours is so large in its scope that I think that you're going to probably want to comment on that, and I'm going to allow you to do so.
		I'm going to hold some more of this material for the remainder of the show.
		We're getting a late start on just open lines, and so start we shall.
unidentified		Rainful Screams
		Now we take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell's Somewhere in Time Wildcard line, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Art.
unidentified		I'm calling from KES Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I was wondering if John Doe number two is legitimate, do you think the government would put him in the witness protection program and like rat out all his buddies, maybe in the militia?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, how am I going to know the answer to a question like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
unidentified		Well, okay, it's just something to think about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art Belt?
		This is Eugene from Morgan Hills.
		Now, there was one important thing overlooked.
		Why is the identity or a general description of this guy being revealed by this press man which would obviously put his life in danger?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, they have not yet revealed the name of the individual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you listen to what he said is they have many witnesses, now yet another witness who has identified this man as being John Doe number two, but nobody's revealed this man's name.
unidentified		Only description.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only the description, but it matches, if you listen carefully, the FBI composite photograph.
unidentified		And the tattoo, the accent, and the photograph, don't you think that would be enough to where if somebody in Oklahoma saw somebody that fed that description, they might be asked to stock them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Be after the what?
unidentified		Stalk them, hunt them down and shoot them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would imagine that anybody fitting the description of somebody who might have done the bombing in Oklahoma City has been under damn careful scrutiny.
		That would probably apply to anybody who generally fit the description, and certainly did apply, especially in the early days after the bombing.
		If you heard him describe it, I mean, there were stopping cars with people who even generally fit the description early on.
		East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hey, I don't suppose you saw that new on Steve Span tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, I did not.
unidentified		Yeah, it's his first speech from New Hampshire.
		And he did say that it will not be a debate.
		Him and Clinton will meet somewhere and exchange ideas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now that's what I told the facts, sir, that it wasn't going to be a debate.
		But somehow, of course, it's getting twisted around to where it is going to be a debate now, supposedly reported by NBC, blah, blah, blah.
		So, I don't know.
		I think you're probably right.
		I tend toward leaning toward your version of the story, sir.
unidentified		Well, Clinton wants to get this meeting at a senior citizens rally.
unidentified		That could get pretty ugly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that'd be all right.
		That'd be all right.
		I'd love to see them both in a forum where they...
		Well, we'll see.
		Either way, I'm going to look forward to it.
		And as I said, try and catch Newt Gingrich Sunday on Meet the Press.
		He's a very bright guy.
		Now, maybe he'll fall down on his, you know, and won't live up to his billing.
		But I would say to all of you who want to know about Gingrich, watch him on Meet the Press this Sunday and watch him under pressure and see how he does.
		And I will be too.
		And we'll see what we think.
		I just happen to think Gingrich is a very, very bright guy who would be up to campaigning President Clinton and would take him on and, frankly, chew him up and spit him out.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		This is Charlie, Liberal in California.
		Yes.
		You know, I look at the Republican field and I get excited.
		Considering you guys think Bill Clinton's so weak, it is an absolutely pathetic field, an absolutely pathetic field.
		And then you've got somebody like Newt Gingrich, who has higher negatives, by the way, than Pat Buchanan.
		Oh, you're absolutely correct.
		And imagine that he could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, Charles.
unidentified		And in his own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		However, Charles, let me stop you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Newt Gingrich is a very intelligent, quick, good debater.
unidentified		I'll say what he is saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you agree with that?
unidentified		I've never seen him in an actual debate.
		So I don't know about that, but I'll tell you this much.
		He has no problems saying what he thinks, which I think puts him in a lot of trouble politically.
		For example, when he said a few weeks ago that he would have no problem cutting Medicare by one-third.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the things that I admire about him is that he does say what he thinks.
unidentified		Yeah, which will get you, which in a political election is something you don't want to do.
unidentified		I think that he would not match up well with Bill Clinton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Never really say what you think of a political campaign.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must lie to win, right?
unidentified		Well, I'm saying you have to do whatever you need to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The end justifies the election, right?
unidentified		But I mean, you look at it.
		You've got Dole, who's basically another George Bush.
		It's an absolutely, I think you guys, Bill Clinton is going to need to make a mistake as it is in order for a Republican to electricity.
		Well, Charles, I wouldn't rule that one out.
		And also on this thing with the bombing, I don't know.
		I think there might be a slight chance that there's something international, but I don't know.
		You look at, I just can't see.
		Maybe you can help me on this.
		How would the Iraqis make contact with the militias and help me with that?
		How would that work exactly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, all right, Charles.
		I'll try and help you with that.
		How would they do that?
		Well, let us imagine how could that be done.
		Gosh, that would sure be impossible, wouldn't it?
		There would be no way that an Iraqi operative could get into America undetected.
		Oh, well, you know, the borders are like barriers of solid steel.
		So it's unimaginable that an Iraqi operative could make it across our borders.
		So I guess you're right, Charles, that certainly rules out the possibility there could have been any contact between an American and an Iraqi operative.
		Gosh, Charles, you make such profound arguments.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, thanks, Art.
unidentified		This is Mike and Madison Cullen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Mike.
unidentified		I've been arguing with my coworkers all week about this new thing.
		In fact, I think Janet probably sent you a fact.
		At least she told me she did, but I didn't hear it.
		But on this new thing, now, first of all, I'm a Buchanan supporter, just like you.
		Now, let me ask you, Art, why did you support Buchanan?
		What do you see in Buchanan that makes you feel like he's the best choice?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Honesty.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if I were listing, you know, in order of reasons or things that I like about Buchanan, top of the list is he's honest.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		And how do you feel about his stand on NATA and GATT?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I agreed with his, I supported NAFTA.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did not support GATT.
unidentified		Okay.
		Now, here's the point that people are making to me, which I think makes some sense.
		The reason I voted for Perot last time and the reason I support Buchanan has a lot to do with what I perceive as happening to the American economy and the American social fabric as a result of loss of good jobs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Put it in a nutshell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are supporting isolationism.
unidentified		Well, okay, for purposes of this discussion right now, I'm going to say yes, I am, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's fair.
unidentified		I'd like to modify that sometime, but we probably don't have the time.
		But I agree with the basic principle that if you've got a one-factory town and you move that factory into Indonesia, you're going to have social problems in that town in no time.
		And that's the point Buchanan makes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You now, as president, all right, for a second?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For the sake of the conversation.
		That little factory we're talking about that might go to wherever, Bangkok or to Taiwan or wherever it's going to go, Mexico, wherever.
		The factory is getting ready to move, and you're president.
		What do you do?
unidentified		Well, I think I know where you're leading with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, it's a fair question.
unidentified		It's a fair question, and I think you can't do anything.
unidentified		I think that you can't just prohibit a factory from moving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		You know, okay, and I see your point there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, the alternative point is don't encourage the factory to move.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm with you there, and these little closed government organizations that seem to be encouraging American factories to move elsewhere ought to be shot in the can.
unidentified		Right.
		Well, you see, the business-as-usual climate in Washington is not going to change significantly under Newt.
		And what I mean by that is we've got to take into account the media blitz that's going to occur if Newt runs for president.
		They're going to link him as strongly as they possibly can with the multinational corporations, with GoPAC.
		They're going to smear him to death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		And he is a brilliant man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, sir.
		Look, you're absolutely right.
		But do you doubt for one second that if Pat Buchanan, with political miracles on his side, caught fire, became was nominated, became the nominee, they'd do a job on Pat Buchanan that would curl your hair?
unidentified		I think you're absolutely right on that.
		But what I fear will happen is that as soon as Newt decides to run, Ross Perot is going to be able to get up on a stump and proclaim, look, all the things I said talked about in the last election have occurred.
		I'm right.
		And here we've got two internationalists running for president.
		The American people do not have a choice.
		They have no protection against this plan which means trashing their economy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, I've got to go.
		It was a very good call.
		You're absolutely correct.
		I'm sure that that would be Perot's reaction.
		The end result might be we'd have three running and another likely 43% victory.
		It could easily occur, sir.
		Could easily occur.
		God, what a nightmare, huh?
		So I don't know.
		All I say is watch the man, Gingrich, Sunday.
		See what you think of him yourself.
		We're in a long period now of comparing and looking at men and trying to make decisions, and that's what this is all about.
		So that's an opportunity to see him.
		See him for yourself.
		See what you think.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, it's Joe from San Carlinia.
		Our corrective wrong national.
		When they say Iraqi national, I looked him up in a dictionary, and according to it, it means he's under the protection of the said country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why don't we call him an Iraqi expatriate?
		Would that be better?
		Actually, if you want to know the truth, I don't know what his status is, so I don't know.
unidentified		People who are involved in the World Trade Center, you know, they had worked with our government over in Pakistan.
		You know, I guess I came out there in trial, and they were called nationals.
		Now, is this the same situation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, sir.
		I'm going to satisfy you and not argue with you about it and just say they identified him, according to the KFOR broadcast, as the suspect they believed to be John Doe, number two, as an Iraqi, a former Iraqi soldier who fought on the side of Saddam Hussein in the Desert Storm War.
		Now, what we call him, you call him anything you want.
		That is as much of the definition as I have been led to understand is the case.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, this is the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's number one.
unidentified		Yeah, this is the shadow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Calling from where?
unidentified		Shadow.
		Citrus Heights, California.
		Okay.
		Yeah, you heard of the now I'm going to be just joking with you a little bit, but you got to understand that some people think how ridiculous this Iraqi thing is.
		For example, have you seen the TV show Mark and Mindy?
		Oh, yeah.
		I'm sure you have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Long ago.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		And anyway, you know, Mark was from Orc.
		So some people might think, oh, gee, if he can if he can stretch this to Iraq, okay, perhaps this guy is actually a space alien from the planet Orc.
		And, you know, and this sort of, you know, there's, you know, there's no proof that he's actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He faded down somehow.
		How did that happen?
		Oh, this hit.
		Sometimes you just can't control this hit.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning to you, sir.
unidentified		Where are you?
		My name is Rick.
		I'm calling from Palos Verdes, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Rick.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Listen, I've heard the host show, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I've got something very important to share with you.
unidentified		I heard the lady also from Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And you know, remember I told you about this gentleman out here, the former FBI agent, Mr. Gunderson?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Oh, yes.
		Uh-huh.
unidentified		I know this is very important in that same article art of May the 15th in the spotlight.
		Yes.
		There's a bulletin and here's a quote from Mr. Gunderson which he got from a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, please don't quote us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just give us a sense of what he said.
unidentified		It's from a federal criminal investigator who is working on the bombing of Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, okay.
unidentified		And this gentleman stated that he stated that the bombing was enhanced reflection wave detonation with a duplex charge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Yeah.
		Enhanced reflection detonation.
		That's right.
		That means that it was in effect a shape charge.
		And I've seen diagrams of what it took to shape that charge.
		And we had a lot of discussions about how very little it takes, and if you know what you're doing, how you can essentially shape a charge of those large canisters full of that stuff wrapped with the cord that was, in effect, the detonator and all the rest of it.
		And it was how you laid them out.
		We went through that, and I don't want to rehash it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Rick from Lincoln, Nebraska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's Lincoln?
unidentified		Oh, fine, fine.
		A little wet, but isn't everybody?
		Are we still on the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope so.
unidentified		Okay, we're off here, so it's too bad, because I enjoy listening to you.
		I guess what I want to talk to you about, I've seen on TV they always show that picture of McVay.
		As far as I know, that's the only known photograph of him since his arrest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was video of him, you'll recall, on the transfer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, when they transferred him, yeah.
unidentified		And it just dawned on me at the time when I seen that the other day for the umpteenth time that it kind of reminded me of Oswald a bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of Oswald?
		Well, all right, thank you.
		I think the whole situation, in some ways, is reminiscent of that, and probably as time grows and mythology grows, if we don't ever get to the bottom of all this, it will begin resembling it in even yet more ways.
		Last call, everybody.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		You're listening to Art Bell Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9, 1995.
		All the leaves are brown and the sky is gray.
		I've been for a while on a winter day.
		If I didn't tell her, I'd believe...
		...
		Midnight after waiting, send your camel to bed.
		Shadows painting our faces.
		Crazy the romance in our head.
		Heavens holding our hands.
		Shine is just for us.
		You're listening to Arch Bell Somewhere in Time on Premiere Radio Networks.
		Tonight, an oncore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 9th, 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From America's high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		The cactus is our friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And no matter what I've done, as my weekend begins, I try to launch it with Maria Moldauer.
		It just reminds me of the beautiful, peaceful place in which I live.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Foxes ranging all over the place from this art.
		Thanks for wasting the entire night on a government attempt to switch the focus as to the culpability from the Oklahoma City bombing away from the government to a collection of Patsys.
		You'll probably censore this one just like you did my box of last night.
		If so, maybe we should call you G-Man.
		Government man, for those not to know, signed Ichabod from Como.
		You can't get to me, Ichabod.
		Not this morning.
		Not even from Seattle.
		Because I'm determined to feel good.
		And anyway, so he thinks that I'm I am, Ichabod.
		I'm CIA.
		Didn't you know that?
unidentified		I know your dad is a song.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never, never, never bothered to deny that.
		No Sherman-esque statements from me about not being in the CIA.
		If you want to think it, Ichabod, be my guest.
		And then this art, I've always felt that there was something funny about the Oklahoma bombing.
		It seemed to me that they were quick to blame the militia.
		You may be on to something with this, and I hope you keep it on until the truth comes out.
		We at least owe that to the people that were killed and injured on that day.
		Sandy from Cogoland, that's San Diego.
		So, that's the range.
		If you'd like to make a comment of your own, that's why we have something called the telephone.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Oh, I'm so shocked to have gotten through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, pray?
unidentified		I'm in Merced, California, KYOS.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		K-Y-O-S.
unidentified		Yes, ma'am.
		Fascinating program this morning.
		I have a couple questions.
		Will tonight's program be rerun tomorrow night, do you suppose?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, tonight's program will be rerun on Sunday night, Monday morning.
unidentified		Oh, good.
		And do you have any stations?
		I want to phone some people to listen to this.
		In Washington State, around Vancouver or Longview, Kelso areas?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, sure, we do.
		We have KO.
		Well, we have KVI.
		It's kind of a strange setup.
		We have between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock, we have KVI in Seattle, 570 on the dial.
		And then beginning at 1 o'clock in the morning, we have KOMO, 50,000-watt radio station, 1,000 on the dial in Seattle.
		And that can be heard right on down to the Mexican border.
		So that pretty much ought to cover it.
unidentified		Okay.
		I have one question.
		What do you mean by wildcard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's just something to call those lines.
		Now, I lived in Las Vegas for the better part of a decade.
		And you understand the reference to wildcard and Las Vegas and gaming and all the rest of it.
unidentified		Not really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't know what a wildcard is when you play poker?
unidentified		I guess it means anything.
		Am I wrong?
		I don't know.
		I'm not much of a card player.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, then I'm not sure exactly how to explain it.
		It just means it's just a name.
		It's just a name.
		It was kind of a takeoff on gaming, gambling.
unidentified		Well, who can call on WildCard is what I want to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anybody who wants to take a chance to get in.
unidentified		Oh.
unidentified		That's what I guess, but I just wasn't sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you did well.
unidentified		Okay, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thank you for the call, and have a good morning.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, this is Luke from St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Luke.
unidentified		You were talking about the coming presidential election a few minutes ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
unidentified		I think it's a shame in this age of fast communications that we still let these two political clubs get together and pick for us Tweedledee and Tweedledum to vote for.
		And in addition, let Tweedledee and Tweedledum tell us who we're going to get for vice president when in the Constitution, I believe if you look very closely, you'll see that we are entitled to vote for the president and the vice president.
		Well, you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, I mean, the parties nominate them, and through the party process, and frequently by choice of the candidate, you know, they submit the name for vice president.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He goes through the nomination process just like the presidential candidate does.
unidentified		Oh, yes, I understand that.
		But I think we should have nationwide primaries where each state, if you win a state, you get one vote, so that they don't have to campaign at five to seven major states and population centers to get elected because then they're the president of New York, Texas, California, and the other populous states, Illinois, whatever they are.
		But if we had a method for electing our president, vice president, that would be a popular vote, no electoral college, I think that we'd be a lot better off rather than letting clubs get together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, two clubs.
		Well, you know, they are just the ones that happen to be supported, sir.
		There is nothing that stops you or anybody else from getting another club together.
		And indeed, Mr. Rossbrow did, in essence, almost exactly that, or, you know, you can run without club altogether.
		I mean, that's why they call it America.
		At least part of the reason.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Oh, hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
unidentified		I'm going to turn my phone off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, don't turn your phone off, or we can't talk.
unidentified		That's good.
unidentified		You've got me excited.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Woodinville, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Woodenville, yes, indeed.
unidentified		And I was wanting to bring up the question as to why the FBI allowed them to come out public with their information but then did not vie to back them up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, first of all, it's fair to say that even the FBI, we would hope, still does, and I believe does, respect the First Amendment.
		Secondly, if you listen, Mike said that they laid it out for the FBI, and the FBI said we can't confirm or deny it, but you go ahead with your report.
		We're not saying don't run it.
		So you can either draw conclusions from that or not.
unidentified		Well, in other words, they could go ahead and publish it, but they just were hanging out in the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The FBI didn't either endorse or say don't run it or, you know, took really no position at all.
		But I guess, you know, you could read between lines if you were a reporter and you laid it out and they said go ahead, you could then, I suppose, think many things.
		You could think, well, either they're saying run it because it's true or because they think it might help flush somebody out of the position they're in or make them reveal themselves or pack their bags and take off for Bonus Arris or whatever.
		You know, who knows?
		I'm sorry.
		I don't have those answers.
unidentified		Well, the fact that it's not, that, you know, that it's not being picked up by the general publications.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're now beginning to see, apparently we're beginning to see that it is starting to be picked up.
		So maybe we're at the beginning of the damn breaking.
		I don't know.
unidentified		It just seems like most other things come out just really, really fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're so.
unidentified		This would be almost like that the general media, the controlled media, has been told to, you know, lay off of this and for some reason, either to discredit this or maybe to maybe the only ones that would come out in that case would be, quote, like the talk show hosts and another effort to discredit them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, in the end, all I would say is life is such a damn mystery, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to run, ma'am.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call, and have a very good morning.
unidentified		Squad Thank you.
		Take you back to the night of June 9th, 1995, on Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
		Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Joe in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Joe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
unidentified		I'm the Newt fan and interactive media guy here.
		yes sir uh...
		first of all uh...
		newt gingrich uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		being the newt fan i have to say No, but I don't broadcast it anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, except now.
unidentified		Yes, that's right.
		I'm broadcasting.
		But listen, he's going to run.
		There's no doubt about it.
		But at least he's going to find out.
		This is brilliant, the strategy to try to get him side by side with Clinton because he'll see right away how he's going to play nationally and see how his polls go when he's side by side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure you're listening to the reports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard the word debate used?
unidentified		Well, you know, people in reporting it, but no, not debate.
		I've heard Newt say it's not a debate.
		He just wants talk Medicare.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we could hope it would turn into a debate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, if it did, now that would be something to behold.
unidentified		Oh, yes, it would.
		And I think something is going to happen.
		They just got to find some sort of neutral ground, and they'll talk about Medicare.
		But first of all, if he runs, which I think he will, he's going to win.
		There's no doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you know, I share that view with you, but we are in a distinct minority.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I read the polls like everybody else does.
unidentified		Here's why, though.
		Here's why all these Republicans are saying no.
		It's because they like him where he is.
		And half of them say that straight out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That accounts for about half.
unidentified		But here's why.
		But here's what's going to happen is as these things get vetoed, as Bob Dole drops the ball, people are going to say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
		We like Newt what he's doing, but as it moves higher up, it's just getting, we like the, first of all, the polls are very high for every one of the items of the Contract of America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		60, 70, 80.
unidentified		And when they connect, they make the connection that the guys higher up are stopping it, and Newt's the one responsible for getting it going, I think that we'll see a change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to record what you've said almost as a prediction.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we'll see how it comes out.
unidentified		All right, Art.
		All right.
		You said something about the internet earlier this week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, oh yeah.
unidentified		Can I say a quick word on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I'm glad you don't want to see regulation, but first of all, it's impossible to regulate it.
		You can't.
		It's like regulating a phone call.
		They would have to go snip the wires.
		There's no way.
		It's kind of like the gun control, only much worse, in that, you know, I just cut you off for a second to demonstrate there is a way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I can throw a switch and boom, you're gone.
		You know, there's lots of people with lots of switches, so it can be done.
		Don't say what we should say is it shouldn't be done.
unidentified		They would have to snip the borders.
unidentified		I mean, even if they went and confiscated hard drives all over the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, look, I've got to hold it at that point.
		My demonstration was it can be done.
		Whether it should be done, that's, of course, of a different color.
		But, I mean, there are going to be some rules.
		You can't use the internet to conspire to commit a crime any more than you can use telephones to conspire to commit a crime or anything else.
		So that much regulation is in order, of course.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Arville.
		This is Charles.
		I'm in Honolulu.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Charles.
unidentified		How you doing?
		Art, I have a question.
		You know, we were talking about the guy from Iraq, I suppose.
		Doesn't he have a, how did he get a visa to get from Iraq to America?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, sir, you're asking me a question I don't have the answer to.
		I will tell you this.
		I believe that at the very beginning of the Desert Storm War, we dropped a lot of leaflets behind the lines of the Iraqi soldiers telling them, yes, telling them to throw up their hands, throw down their weapons, and give up.
		And we made certain promises.
		And I believe on that basis, a number of Iraqi soldiers have indeed made their way to the U.S. as immigrants.
		So I don't know that that's the answer to the question.
		It's just my guess.
unidentified		Right.
		Yeah, I remember dropping the leaflets part of SciOps.
		And that's pretty interesting.
		The other question that I had was yesterday, I guess a couple days ago on your show, we were talking about the reason that the government had allowed the news media to broadcast about the down pilot in Bosnia.
		And we said that we, and I found it hard to believe that they would even let something like that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that makes two of us.
		And it's not just that it was let out, sir.
		The Pentagon made public the information that they were getting the signal, and it was, to me, I know.
unidentified		That's amazing.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean rescued.
		It's just, yeah, I agree with this caller.
		Nothing short of amazing.
		Nothing short of amazing.
		Now, the one aspect of it that I haven't not compared, and I haven't looked carefully at, is he was rescued about 20 miles from Bihach, not more than about five miles from where he came down.
		Or maybe it was even closer than that.
		Maybe it was 500 feet.
		I can't remember.
		It's very close.
		And I'm trying to recall exactly where the Pentagon had specified they were getting their signals.
		Now, maybe that was intentionally to mislead the Serbs with regard to where the signals were coming from.
		So I would need to carefully compare what they originally said.
		And I don't know that I can do that anymore.
		And maybe one of you can.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
unidentified		I'm going to try for two hours to get on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now you've made it.
unidentified		Yeah, Call.
		My name is Joe.
		I'm calling from San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Joe.
unidentified		Hey, Vision here.
		I noticed I've been listening.
		Every time some of these people call in and talk about this fellow, Ted L. Gunderson, you cut him off the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, I just, when it gets to allegations that are not established yet.
unidentified		Well, I read that article too.
		These men are talking about the spotlight.
		Well, this guy Ichabod's accusing me of you of being a government agent.
		If I think if you don't have this guy Gunderson on her, that you are a government agent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, fine.
unidentified		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think it too.
		You know, I don't care.
		I don't care.
		You're going to tell me if I don't have some guess on, I'm a government agent?
		I don't care.
		You want to think it?
		Think it.
		Think I'm CIA.
		Above top secret.
		Level 47.3.
unidentified		You know, think it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And ask me if I care what you think.
		If you want to think I'm a government agent or if Ichabod wants to think I'm a government agent, fun.
		Imagine I am.
		And imagine I'm sitting here with voice prints of everything you just said.
		Imagine.
		I sound like John Lennon.
		West of the Rockies on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		My name's Marie and I'm from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Marie from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
unidentified		I'm doing fine.
unidentified		What I called about was starting Sunday here at Como Country, they're going to start caring Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you for saying that.
		I would have forgotten.
		Beginning this Sunday, Dreamland switches in its entirety to K-O-M-O, 1,000 on the radio dial, 50,000 watts, 7 o'clock Sunday evening.
		I think it's, is it going to be 7?
unidentified		Pardon me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I say, is it going to be on at 7 o'clock?
unidentified		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you just told the world.
unidentified		Well, thank you.
unidentified		Thank you, dear, for mentioning it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's going to be George Knapp.
		Don't miss Dreamland this coming Sunday.
		George Knapp, the reporter who broke the whole thing about Area 51 in the first place, produced UFOs, the best evidence.
		George Knapp, who knows a lot about what has gone down in Russia, will be our guest on Dreamland.
		And yes, Dreamland switches in its entirety to KOMO Seattle beginning this Sunday.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you?
unidentified		Second Reynolds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the show.
unidentified		I wanted to ask you, last night was a bit of a discussion about the American flag and how people burning it, the possibility of passing legislation against it.
unidentified		And of course, you had a kind of common sense solution that people wouldn't allow it to be done anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe that, yes.
unidentified		Let me ask you this.
unidentified		What's the proper procedure or protocol for dealing with a flag that you drop on the ground?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if a flag is tattered, if a flag is tattered or if a flag is in disrepair, then it is properly destroyed using that exact method.
		And so I very well understand your point, sir.
		But the acts are not the same, are they?
		That is, burning the flag in protest or because you're angry or whatever, and burning it because it is in some manner been tattered or defaced.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		This is Christopher.
unidentified		I'm calling from Dawson Creek, D.C. Dawson Creek, British Columbia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell everybody where Dawson Creek is.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Dawson Creek is mile zero of the Alaska Highway.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It's about 1,000 kilometers north of Vancouver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About 1,000 miles north of Vancouver?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		No, 1,000 kilometers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kilometers.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		It's about 600 miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're, in other words, I went through Dawson Creek.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I've been up and down the Alcan Trail three times.
unidentified		Oh, wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I did it back when it was real gravel.
unidentified		Oh, really?
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, so I know where you are up there in the middle of nowhere.
unidentified		What's going on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's going on?
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Anyways, what I was calling about is to just let you know that I can pick you up every night on KOMO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that's because KO, this is what I'm trying to tell everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KOMO goes from the Mexican border probably to the North Pole.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Oh, that's phenomenal.
		Like, pretty well every night I listen to you, and I just love your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's good to know that you're up there in Dawson Creek listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I hope when January and February comes along, you'll call us from Dawson Creek and tell us how cold it's getting.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I will when it's like minus 40 Fahrenheit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's exactly right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, from Dawson Creek in British Columbia, you're going to get to tell the world this morning good night because we're out of time.
private investigator mike ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good night, everyone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, everyone.
		I guess that says it.
		Dawson Creek, look it up on a map.
		All right, everybody, that's it.
		What a night.
		If you're able to stay tuned for the repeat next two hours, don't miss it on a bet.
		See you Sunday on Dreamland, Monday night, Tuesday morning, back with the syndicated program.

▲