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March 12, 1995 - Art Bell

01:56:03

Dreamland with Art Bell - The Hidden History of the Human Race - Michael Cremo

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30:24

linda moulton howe

07:50

michael cremo

01:00:17

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell, the guy who's usually on in the morning, so it's hard to get rid of that habit.
		And in some cases, in fact, Dream Lamb does air in the morning, as it is repeated across this nation.
		It's good to be here.
		As the opening told you, we discuss things that are not quite so easily put in a box every week, and that will be the case this week as well.
		It should be intriguing.
		Don't you want to know about the origins of the human race?
		Well, I do and have for a long time, and we've got a man with another theory this evening, Michael Cremo, and he'll be coming to us all the way from Florida.
		First, however, as we do every week, coming to us from Philadelphia once again, it is Linda Howe, home once again in Philadelphia.
		Linda, good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, how's everything?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's been spring today, and I think there's some hope of getting out of all this water and winter that everybody's been coping with, and that's a good step.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, everybody in California has the same wish with regard to water.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And remember back in September I announced that my book Glimpses of Other Realities was going to be carried by Barnes and Noble?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, dozens of our Dreamland listeners called in frustration to tell me the book wasn't in the Barnes and Noble system then as I was told it would be.
		Recently, however, I had the pleasure of walking into a large Barnes and Noble bookstore in Philadelphia and discovering copies of glimpses displayed on a shelf.
		So the book is finally and officially in the Barnes and Noble stores and system.
		And to our Dreamland listeners, if you can't find a shelf copy, all you have to do is order through the computer system.
		My goal in doing the books and documentaries has been to share with as large a general audience as possible the difficult And complex information about non-human interaction on our planet.
		So I'm grateful for this larger bookstore connection and hope all our listeners will encourage Barnes and Noble to keep carrying books like Glimpses as we try to deal with this difficult subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Linda, I'm curious, how does it feel to go to a big bookstore and see your own books sitting there?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was so, to use the phrase, it made my heart sing because I don't think anybody could possibly know how difficult the last 15 years of my life have been because I have chosen to explore these subjects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm certain that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, to see your own work there in a major bookstore must have been a serious thrill.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It was.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It is, and I hope our listeners will continue to call on Barnes & Noble and their other bookstores, because the more that people ask for books like Glimpses of Other Realities and Alien Harvest, the more we'll be able to sustain keeping those books in these bookstores.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now this week, I was also a guest on the NBC weekly television show The Other Side, which in this case was a show about investigators of the paranormal.
		That program of The Other Side is broadcast after the morning news show on NBC and is focusing on some of the same subjects that we cover in Dreamland.
		So I encourage our radio listeners to look for The Other Side in their TV guide.
		They've asked me to come back and when I know that next date I'll let everybody know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so are you saying it's already aired?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it aired this past week and I did not know precisely the date when we were on last Sunday and it turned up that it was on that Wednesday and I've gotten so many calls and apparently they're going to try to do another show and I'll for sure find out and let you guys know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now this past week I also received a call from a retired police officer named Bill Hill who worked for 25 years in the Peoria, Illinois Police Department and then retired to Salmon, Idaho, a very remote wilderness area of northern Idaho.
		Mr. Hill owned some horses and had bought a new buckskin on January 12th.
		Two weeks later, on January 26th, he was shocked to find the horse dead and mutilated.
		He was very frustrated.
		He did not know that there were people like myself and Dr. Auchuler and others investigating cases like this, and he finally contacted me this week because he, the law enforcement there, and the veterinarian who examined the horse are completely baffled.
unidentified		this is mister health eyewitness account When I saw the horse laying there, I saw a large wound in the side of his neck with blood on it, and the blood was still steaming, and the snow was still melting on the horse, so he was fairly warm.
		So I told her not to go near it, and I backtracked.
		I didn't go within 10-15 feet of the horse.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Did you see any tracks on that moist ground?
unidentified		Absolutely none.
		It was a fresh snow.
		And the other horses hadn't been down in that lower pasture, and there were no tracks down there, and there was no tracks when I walked up to it.
		So we went back to the phone, called the Sheriff's Department, and a deputy come out.
		And when he came out, we got our flashlights, and we walked a little closer.
		And at that time, I also observed there was a large patch of skin off the belly towards the rear end.
		And it was probably a foot to a foot and a half in diameter, and it went around behind the base of the penis, and there wasn't any skin on his penis either.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So it was as if the hide had been removed, tied deep down to the surface of the muscle, and that the surface height of the penis was removed also.
unidentified		Right, it was just the stomach hadn't been penetrated.
		It hadn't gone into the stomach cavity or anything.
		It just took the outside layer of skin off there.
		So my first impression when I saw the hole was that somebody shot it from the highway.
		And he's a buckskin horse and an elk colored.
		And during hunting season, we have a lot of accidents where cattle and horses are shot, or sometimes it's just vandalism.
		So when I saw the damage done to the horse, I thought it was strange that whoever, if somebody had shot it from a distance, that they would come up this close to our house and do what they did to the horse.
		This is only about 300 feet from my house.
		It's out in plain sight out in the pasture, and it's right across, my neighbor right across the road from me.
		It's approximately the same distance.
		We live on a dead end road, and the road ends about 300 feet up before where the horse was.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So if anybody had been out there an hour before you arrived, which was broad daylight since the horse was still steaming, you would think that it would have been obvious for someone to be in that pasture with that horse.
unidentified		They would have had to walk several hundred feet in the open to walk up to this area.
		And if anybody would have been in our house or at the neighbor's home would have seen it, why it would have been obvious.
		And they obviously spent some time down there skinning it to take the skin off of it for the job that they did.
		So we made a big circle around the area where the horse was.
		We walked into the neighbor's pasture between the highway and our place, which the highway is about 500, 600 feet away.
		And we made a big loop all the way around and we walked down into a pasture behind us.
		And we found no tracks at all, no evidence where anybody had been on the property at all.
		It probably had been snowing maybe an hour or two hours.
		It was a couple inches of snow on the ground.
		It was a wet snow.
		And for the way that the blood was steaming, coming out of the hole on the neck, it appeared very warm.
		And the snow was still melting on the horse.
		When I looked at it, I didn't really realize it until I went up to the sheriff's office and got the pictures of it today.
		There was snow underneath the horse, and there was snow in a place, in places where the horse couldn't have been laying there, and it snowed over him.
		There had to have been snow on the ground where the horse was laid down.
		It was pretty obvious to us that he died right where he dropped.
		But the only wound that we could see was a hole in the neck.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And this removal of the hide.
unidentified		Plus the removal of the hide.
		So my first thought was that it had been shot in the neck.
		And the head was taken to a veterinarian here, and they cut it off to examine it.
		And they x-rayed it, and they could find no bullet fragments or wadding from a shotgun shell or anything inside it.
		And the veterinarian that autopsied it said that she'd never seen anything like it, and it definitely wasn't a gunshot wound.
		It only went into the neck about two to three inches.
		And the x-ray didn't show any lead fragments or anything where a bullet would Have done any damage or broken up inside the neck.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And Mr. Hill also learned that the Salmon, Idaho Sheriff's Department received a report about a UFO in the area around the time of the horse's death in January.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I was going to ask about that, and there it is, the connection.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		And I think that you can't stress enough the bizarre high strangeness of a horse found lying on two inches of snow with this kind of a hole in the neck with the hide in a very clean cut,
		only hide deep across the belly and picking the skin even of the scrotum and the penis very thinly without any sign of any tracks anywhere in the entire pasture or around that horse and with no signs of any fluid or any blood on the snow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give me a guess.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What do I think happened?
unidentified		Yep.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it fits into these other eyewitness reports that I have brought to Dreamland this past year from people like Mr. McKnight in Oregon, who encountered the mutilated animal out in Sand Springs and found a rancher there who was living in a trailer who described for him how he had seen glowing,
		white glowing spheres in the sky come over the pasture, send down beams of light, had watched animals from the pasture rise in those beams of light, and then when they were returned, they were either returned down the beam of light or were simply dropped from some kind of an object in the sky.
		And when they dropped, they were there dead with these excisions.
		Now that could explain what happened to this horse in Idaho.
		And that is what could explain these other cases where cows have been found on wet sandbars with no tracks around them either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about why?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, then we get into what I have been trying to investigate for the last decade or so, the motive, the intent behind some non-human intelligence interacting with the plant, animal, and human life on our planet.
		And as Bud Hopkins keeps walking into the same seeming motive in the human abduction syndrome, genetic harvesting, that is one area that the abductees themselves have said that in the few cases that have involved both abductions and animal mutilations,
		that they understand that there is a harvesting of genetic material by something off-planet to create some sort of hybrid species that is part life on our planet and part something else out there.
		And that still does not answer the bigger question, why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		We're all trying to find out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least it helps, I guess.
		All right, Linda, a lot of people want to contact you for various reasons, including your books, your publications, to write you letters to fax you.
		So why don't you give us your fax number and your address?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Art.
		I really, really do value the communication I'm getting from the Dreamland listeners.
		And I am Linda Howell at Post Office Box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
		That's an English spelling, H-U-N-T-I-N-G, D as in dog, O-N, Huntingdon Valley, P-A, zip code 19006.
		And my fax number is area code 215-491-9842.
		That is definitely the fax number.
		And again, post office box 538, Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, 19006.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
		All right.
		I'm sure you'll get a number of communications from all of this.
		Once again, fascinating.
		Thank you, Linda.
		Next week, Philadelphia?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I am going to be in Philadelphia this month before or till the end of the month, and then I'm going to be going to Tennessee, and I'll be doing reports from there, but I'll let you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I will be here next Sunday, and I agree with you that the forbidden history of man, which is what I think we're dealing with, is going to be one of the continually emerging subjects over the next few years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guess as well.
		Great.
		Thank you, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Linda Howell.
		Actually, it is the hidden history of the human race, but my guess is by the time we're done, we'll find out it is forbidden as well, as in forbidden knowledge.
		Michael Crimel, or is it Crimmel, we'll find out in just a second, has written a book called The Hidden History of the Human Race.
		And basically, I think he is going to suggest that our history as a human species is not as the scientist would have us believe.
		Perhaps not even close.
		He is a research associate with Bhaktivedanta, which is an institute that specializes in the history and philosophy of science.
		His persistent investigation during the eight years of writing his widely acclaimed Forbidden Archaeology has documented a major scientific cover-up.
		He's currently researching the companion volume to Forbidden Archaeology entitled The Descent of Man Revisited.
		It is a startling new explanation of human origins.
		So let's go, I believe, all the way to Florida and say, hello, Michael.
		I'm going to be cautious here and just say, Michael, how do we pronounce your last name properly, Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Cremo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cremo.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I had it right the first time.
		Very good.
		Michael, it's a very provocative title, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
		How wrong do we have it about our origins?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you listen to the current scientific establishment, they will tell you that human beings Like you and I have only been on this planet for about 100,000 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And before that, you would have had more ape-like ancestors.
		But what I did was look into the entire history of archaeology and anthropology, look at every discovery that's ever been made over the past 150 years.
		And what emerged from that study is that there is a huge mountain of evidence suggesting that human beings like ourselves have been on this planet literally for hundreds of millions of years.
		But this evidence has been suppressed, it's been forgotten, it's been ignored, and I think the people of this country need to know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do we start?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then you're saying that those who believe in evolution, scientific evolution as it has been laid out for us, those who believe in creation the way it's been laid out for us, both are wrong.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		In other words, I'll give you some examples of how this process of what we would call knowledge filtration has been going on for about 150 years.
		Now, I can give you examples going all the way back to the 19th century, all the way up to the present.
		Let's start with the present.
		In 1979, Mary Leakey, who is one of the most famous archaeologists of this century, she discovered in Africa, in a country called Tanzania, some human footprints.
		And every expert who has looked at these prints has said they are no different than the footprints that you or I might make if we were walking on a beach today.
		The unusual thing about these prints, however, is that they were found in rock that is 3.6 million years old.
		Now, I just told you the standard scientific doctrine is that human beings capable of making such prints have only been around for about 100,000 years.
		Somebody might say, well, maybe the ape men who lived at that time could have made those prints somehow.
		No, because the fossil foot bones from those ancient ape men are in the museums.
		They do not fit those prints because they had very long, curved toes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we know that the prints were made as long ago as you're saying they were?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		This is the information that is given to us by geologists.
		Now, you could always say, well, perhaps those dates are wrong.
		But what Richard Thompson, my co-author and I, did as part of our methodology was accept, for the sake of argument, the dates that scientists give to the data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, okay, that makes sense.
		Michael, we're at the bottom of the hour here, and we've got to pause.
		We've got a lot to do and a long way to go, so stay right where you are, and we'll be back to you in about four minutes.
		Michael Cremo is my guest.
		The Hidden History of the Human Race, his book, and we will probe.
unidentified		The Hidden History of the Human Race From the Kingdom of Nine, you're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely is.
		Good evening in Dreamland underway.
		The Hidden History of the Human Race.
		The entire human race.
		Michael Cremo, you're back on.
		Hi.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Michael, it seems to me that if the history is not what the creationists say, and if the history is not what the evolutionists say, scientists, then it seems to me there's a whole group of people out there, experts of all kinds, who would like to take you and grind you into little pieces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Am I about right?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I mean, this book, The Hidden History of the Human Race, has been causing shockwaves in the scientific community.
		We have Richard Leakey, for example.
		You know Richard Leakey.
		Indeed.
		He says your book is pure humbug.
		It's not deserved to be taken seriously by anyone but a fool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly the reaction I expected.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's exactly what you would expect from one of the architects of this whole paradigm.
		But on the other hand, we do have some more independent researchers who are really cheering us on.
		Virginia Steen McIntyre, a geologist who had the misfortune to discover some of these unusual things, says this book is a real eye-opener.
		And that even she herself didn't realize how much evidence there really is out there.
		So we're getting, as I said, a lot of positive reaction and a lot of negative reaction.
		And I think that's what you have to expect from a book like this, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've got a little sheet from you, and it suggests some myths that we suffer with, with traditional views, one of them being that we evolved from apes.
		That is indeed the traditional view, is it not?
		Ape became man?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		If you go to any natural history museum, you'll see those little displays, the little ape-like creature, and then a slightly bigger ape-man, and then a bigger one, and a bigger one, and finally a human being right towards the end at about 100,000 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's one of those textbooks.
		You look on the television specials, Walter, Cronkite, Carl Sagan, they'll all be saying that.
		They'll all be repeating the standard dogma.
		But the actual facts that scientists have uncovered over the past 150 years simply don't support that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's say Michael Cremo were to set up a demonstration, a little demonstration of the same exact thing, except following what you believe to be the case, during that whole span with all those little beings slowly becoming man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would Michael Cremo's display look like?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, we would have humans like us coexisting with these other creatures, just like today.
		You have human beings, you have apes, you have monkeys, and this will get us into a very interesting subject, but if you take very seriously the reports of the Sasquatch, the Bigfoot, the Yeti, it would appear that even today we are coexisting with some of these ape-man-like creatures.
		Now, we don't say there were no ape-men.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now, does that mean Sasquatch, in your view, is the caveman simply reduced in numbers but still barely here?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Could be a survival of the Neanderthals or the Homo erectus-type creatures.
		Now, I will say that in many cases, these creatures do seem to have some powers that ordinary animals don't.
		And this will get us into a whole other subject.
		But physically, the descriptions of these creatures appear to match the ape-man-like creatures we heard about from science.
		And I'll also say, now, you were mentioning I'm with the Bhaktivedanta Institute, which is the science studies branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and we get a lot of our inspiration from ancient writings of different civilizations, for example, India.
		And in some of those ancient writings, you do find descriptions of human civilizations going back hundreds of millions of years on this planet.
		You also find descriptions of very primitive ape-man-like creatures who use stone tools.
		And when you look at the evidence, it really appears that we have coexisted with these creatures and with apes and monkeys for as long, as far back as you would care to trace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be your theory that we all arrived on the planet in whatever manner our arrival together?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that is what the facts actually suggest.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And how we got here, that's a subject we intend to go into quite deeply in our next book, which we call Human Devolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Devolution.
		In what manner do you suggest we got here if we all arrived at the same time?
		How long ago?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's an interesting fact.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		The oldest artifact that we record in our book is 2.8 billion years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Billion with a B. I'm sorry, billion with a B?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Billion with a B. This is a grooved metallic spear that was found in South Africa by miners.
		They're mining near a town called Otostalen in South Africa, a mineral called pyrophylite.
		And when the miners go into these deposits, they're finding perfectly round metal spears.
		And this metal is very hard.
		It's so hard that you can't even scratch it with a steel point, which means it's about as hard as diamonds.
		And some of these, one of these spears in particular, had three parallel grooves going around its equator, and no one has come up with a natural explanation for how these things could have been formed.
		Now, a lot of them are kept in a natural history museum in a little town called Klerksdorp in South Africa, and Rolf Marx, who was the curator there, sent us some photographs of these objects, which you can see some in our book.
		But the mineral deposits in which these things are found, in which the miners found them, are over 2 billion years old.
		Now, so that's taking us back quite far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure is.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		According to your standard accounts, you wouldn't have it, you would just have some maybe one-celled creatures living in the ocean at that time.
		So we think, and this is something that the standard scientists recognize.
		For example, William Howells, who's again one of the big anthropologists of this century, one of the architects of the current paradigm, when he read the Hidden History of the Human Race, he said, well, Michael, what you've done here is you've called into question not only our whole picture of human origins, but our whole picture of how life could have arisen on this planet.
		What you're suggesting is that no evolutionary idea that you could possibly think of could work.
		And that's a fact.
		So where we're headed is towards some kind of extraterrestrial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, I was going to get to that.
		Well, are you believing then that some sort of extraterrestrial source is responsible for our creation, our placement here, and is still to this day watching over us?
		Is that...
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right at the present moment, you've got three main theories of human origins.
		You've got, number one, the Darwinian idea that we evolved from some simple one-celled creature.
		You could call that descent with modifications, but starting with the simple things.
		And then gradually all the other plants and animals, and finally the human beings come.
		Then you have the standard creationist idea, which is that God pops it all into being somehow right in the beginning.
		Then you have what I would call the extraterrestrial hypothesis, which places us as members of a kind of cosmic hierarchy, and there are contacts between different planets and solar systems.
		Now, from what we can see, my co-author and I, Richard Thompson, and drawing on some of our sources in these ancient Sanskrit writings, uh, we're going to be taking elements from all three of those ideas and making a new synthesis.
		We think there's something, and Darwin had a little bit right, that there's some kind of descent with modification, but from what we can see, the descent is from higher beings, not on this planet.
		In other words, not starting out with a one-cell creature, but starting out with some very powerful human-like creatures in this cosmic hierarchy.
		And there is some kind of process of descent with modification going on.
		Now, from that creationist account, which is the second main explanation, we would put some kind of God or supreme intelligence and designer at the top of the whole system, but he's not popping everything into existence at once.
		He's using a process which may involve extraterrestrial contacts as part of it.
		And the whole thing has been going on for hundreds of millions of years, so that if we want to untangle our history, we may have to be dealing with all three of these.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't there some danger, though, in drawing from each one of the separate hypothesis that you will almost surely then get some part of it wrong?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, we want to look at what the evidence actually suggests.
		And, of course, we could discuss that, but there is evidence for extraterrestrial contacts.
		There is evidence for some kind of supreme designing intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Michael, Michael.
		Let us say that it is so, that our beginnings were extraterrestrial in origin, and that there is some part of evolution that's in play as well.
		In other words, they started us, but we are evolving or devolving, depending on how you look at it.
		And that's some sort of natural process.
		I'm not quite clear on the creator part of it.
		In other words, you feel there was some sort of creator even beyond our extraterrestrial.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in a higher spiritual dimension, starting the whole thing off, right.
		And this supreme intelligent being would be the source of what we would call a cosmic hierarchy of beings.
		Which if you look at what people have thought and taught down through history, they pretty much have this hierarchy where you have human beings on the terrestrial level, more powerful types of beings on a middle level, a celestial level, you might call it.
		If you go back to the time of the Egyptians, for example, they had their gods.
		The Romans, the Greeks, the Australian Aboriginals, the American Indians, they all had this hierarchy of human beings and then beings a little bit higher on the hierarchy with greater powers.
		What evidence is there for that?
		I think we get in where that evidence comes from.
		The physical evidence that we can see is the sort of thing that Linda Howell was talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly where I was going.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		A little bit earlier.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		This is showing physical evidence for creatures a little bit higher up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, is that, in your opinion, evidence then, that those who created us of extraterrestrial origin continued to monitor not just us, but the animals and all of their creations here on Earth?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this process of descent with modification, as far as we can see, it involves a supreme being operating through these other creatures.
		You could call them extraterrestrials, angels, demigods, spirits, whatever you want to call them.
		But there is some process involved.
		It's not an instantaneous creation in the beginning.
		There is some kind of descent with modification going on, some kind of, you could call it consciously directed genetic engineering of some kind, but it's not the type that the scientists are currently telling us about because that's a purely random accidental process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, then who was Jesus?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think he would be one of the...
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		wherever it is, to come and spread knowledge about these higher things to the people on this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he was some sort of angel?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Convenient word, or would you use another?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a compassionate being, the Buddha's, the Christ.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		There have been, I mean, this is a very common theme in practically every culture and religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this compassionate being, angel, whatever.
		Then what are all his teachings?
		How do you deal with those?
		How do you deal with the Bible?
		I'm going to ask you before my audience does.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, I think in the Bible, you definitely have the picture of this cosmic hierarchy.
		You have the Supreme Being on top.
		You have various categories of angels.
		You look in the first parts of Genesis.
		You have apparently some descriptions of some extraterrestrial contacts with Earth and even some of these beings mating with terrestrial humans.
		You know, seeing the daughters of the earth as being fair and having them as wives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you find support for all of this then in the Bible?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, and not just in the Bible.
		As I said, if you look through the Jewish Kabbalah, you will also find this cosmic hierarchy.
		You'll find it in the ancient Sanskrit writings of India.
		If you look at the Egyptians, the Aztecs, the American Indians, the Australian Aboriginals, you will see basically the same pattern.
		And I think this is very significant, that all of these peoples in different times, in different places, talking about the same pattern, the same cosmic hierarchy.
		What that tends to suggest is that they are contemplating something real.
		You know, they may be contemplating it from slightly different perspectives, but they're looking at the same thing, it would appear to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how could they have gotten it that wrong?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, Jesus viewed himself the son of God.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, son of God is that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I think he would have said we're all sons of God.
		Of course, he's a very special one, being given so much power to teach about these things on this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would sort of take you on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, an awful lot of what's in the Bible is very specific and would not at all jive with Michael Cremo, right?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm sure there are those who will want to take a view like that.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there are others who will be able to appreciate the similarities between what you might find in one book of knowledge and another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael, do species come and go?
		In other words, do we have species that, in effect, exit the Earth as it is said dinosaurs have done?
		I think you argue with that, don't you?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		From what it appears to us, if you look at various sources, be it physical evidence, the writings of different ancient civilizations, it would appear that no species really goes extinct.
		It will always be existing somewhere, somewhere, either on this planet or perhaps in some other part of the universe.
		Now, you did mention the dinosaurs, and it's quite interesting that although the standard scientific doctrine is that these creatures are extinct, there are people, even today, some very competent researchers who say they appear to still be living in some parts of this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		For example, there have been sightings of dinosaur-like creatures in Africa, in the Congo region.
		There's quite a huge body of literature about that.
		Not very well known, but you have, for example, some French researchers have published a very massive book about these sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're going to hold it right there, Michael.
		We're at the top of the hour, and we will soon get the telephone lines open.
		And I feel as though I ought to have a special dinosaur line, just in case anybody's got a line on a dinosaur out there.
		Fascinating.
		He suggests, indeed, they have been spotted possibly in the Congo.
		I had no idea.
		All right, we're going to break here at the top of the hour, and we'll be back.
		Michael Cremo is my guest.
		His book, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
		And indeed, it is very different than I have imagined.
		We'll be back with more.
		You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		The CBC Radio Network.
		This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
		Please do not call.
		On the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now, toll-free, at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		702.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, I am here.
		And a very good evening to you all.
		This is Dreamland.
		My guest is Michael Cremo.
		Michael has an intriguing theory, or actually he feels it's a lot more than theory.
		And we're going to get to some of the evidence here shortly.
		He's written a book called The Hidden History of the Human Race.
		And apparently, quite a hit it is.
		Some of the evidence coming up.
		And Michael, just before we get into the evidence aspect, I've got a couple of facts here that I would like to ask you about.
		One is from a great factor named Doc Berry down in Phoenix.
		And the question is, how does the immortal soul theory fit into the author's cosmic hierarchy theory?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		It fits in very well.
		That would be a big part of it.
		And I would say the physical evidence for that would come in the form of the medical reports, well-documented medical reports of the out-of-body experiences, The near-death experiences, and also transmigration or reincarnation memories, such as those studied by Dr. Ian Stevenson, who is a psychiatrist at the University of Virginia.
		He studied thousands of cases of small children who report past life memories.
		Now, children, they can't go to the library and make up a very elaborate past life story.
		These children tend to report very ordinary past lives, and he's been able to document the previous incarnation of these children in hundreds of cases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I too find children to be very credible in these areas.
		All right, I hate to rush you, but we've got to do that.
		Here's another one.
		Is it possible that life has been brought to this planet numerous times, and like plants hot, we keep dying as a species?
		Our sponsors, ETs, I guess, may not want to waste a perfectly good planet and have continued to recycle this place for millions of years.
		Good theory?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, the part, I don't know that I could agree with every detail of it, but the part, the first part that was mentioned, that we've got multiple origins on this planet.
		We didn't come just once.
		It's an ongoing process.
		That is something that I fully agree with, and I think the evidence supports it, especially if you look down through history at what different peoples have reported.
		You get a lot of evidence of different extraterrestrial contacts, different descents of human species on this planet.
		And I think that's very well supported by the evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's a good place to break into evidence.
		If I were to ask you, Michael, what is your best evidence?
		What is the evidence that supports your theory that man, along with other creatures on the planet, have been around so long?
		Give me the best stuff you've got.
		What would you give me?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And this is, and I think we really have to pay this attention to the evidence because if we're going to, it's an alternative explanation to the evolutionary doctrine that is now so dominant, we have to show that that theory is not supported by the evidence.
		Otherwise, why even talk about these alternatives?
		So let's look at some discoveries that were made by some California gold miners back in the gold rush days.
		They were digging tunnels thousands of feet into solid rock in the sides of mountains.
		Now, I've talked with geologists in the state of California, and they say that this rock in these mountains is at least 10 million and as much as 50 million years old.
		Now, inside these tunnels, these miners were finding human skeletons, they were finding obsidian spear points, they were finding all kinds of human artifacts.
		These were collected together by a man named J.D. Whitney, who was the state geologist of California at the time, and he wrote a massive book about them, which was published by Harvard University in 1883.
		Now, my question is, why don't we hear about these anymore?
		Why aren't they on display in the museums?
		They were suppressed.
		the evidence was suppressed.
		There was a very powerful anthropologist named William H. Holmes in Washington, D.C., at the Smithsonian Institution, that institution that's still there on the Mall in Washington, D.C. And here's what...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that's another story.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		But you can see there's a whole history of how that distortion goes on.
		So this is what Dr. Holmes of the Smithsonian Institution said to Whitney out in California.
		He said, he said, and the exact quotes in our book, but this is a good rendition of it.
		He said, if Dr. Whitney had understood the theory of human evolution as we understand it today, then he would have hesitated to announce his conclusions, despite the imposing array of facts with which he was confronted.
		In other words, the facts don't go along with the theory, then the facts have to go, and Dr. Whitney has to go, and the artifacts have to go.
		So there you had some very good evidence showing you had human beings up to 50 million years ago in California.
		Going back a little bit further, we had in 1862 a scientific magazine called The Geologist that told how in Makupin County, Illinois, which is right here in the United States,
		90 feet deep below the ground in coal, in a layer of coal that was below two solid feet of slate rock, an entire human skeleton no different than ours, in other words, not an eight-man skeleton, but a skeleton no different than ours was found in the coal there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just seems impossible that this could have happened, and I realize where you're going with respect to then the age of that being, obviously, but it seems impossible to me that the traditional scientific community could either suppress, ignore, or lie about evidence of this magnitude.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, it does happen, and it's still happening today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		we shouldn't be so surprised that evidence can be kept secret for example we find that government they can keep secret well you know i know that's true michael but the origins of the the human being it's such an important question that you would think that even scientists with egos regarding
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, how are they able to just dismiss, and how can they call themselves scientists if they do?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just gave you the example of this William Holmes of the Smithsonian Institution just saying, just bluntly dismissing a huge body of evidence, human skeletons, tools, all kinds of things, you know, from California, just because it went against the idea of human evolution.
		A lot of power, a lot of prestige, a lot of money is involved in all this.
		there are some of the big foundations like the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Institution are involved in this.
		We see that basically this idea of Darwinian evolution is being enforced on the American education system by the full power of the United States government through its judicial system.
		In other words, the scientists have got the United States government suppressing this evidence.
		Now, this is and preventing it from being taught in the schools.
		So to me, it's not at all surprising how a very powerful, elite group of people making use of every resource that they have can keep this evidence oppressed.
		And I could give you some very good examples of that that are going on even today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, still, it's incredible, Michael.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Of course it is.
		That's why I wrote this book.
		It is incredible.
		It is shocking, and I think people need to know about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it is saying that all of these organizations and all of these scientists, instead of being devoted to a search for the truth, you're charging are devoted to maintaining a cover-up.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And this is going on in many areas.
		I can tell you a person that I know personally who was a victim of this kind of treatment.
		It's Virginia Steen McIntyre, a geologist who was working with the U.S. Geological Survey.
		Now, in the 1960s, some anthropologists went down to Mexico at a place called Huayatlaco, which is near Puebla, which is just near Mexico City.
		And they uncovered some human artifacts there, some advanced stone tools.
		And when the anthropologists dig up something like that, they want to know how old it is.
		So what they do is they call in a geologist because the geologist can tell them how old the strata of the Earth were in which those things were found.
		So they called in Virginia Steen McIntyre of the U.S. Geological Survey.
		And she and three of her colleagues dated that site with four different methods.
		And each of the methods gave an age of about 250,000 years, which is unusual for two reasons.
		First of all, no human beings should have been in existence 250,000 years ago, anatomically modern human beings like us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And what to speak of in Mexico, because the standard idea is that human beings didn't come over to the New World until about 20,000 years ago, when the Indians supposedly came over the Bering land bridge up in Alaska from Siberia and wandered down into America.
		So to have this evidence at 250,000 years in Mexico was shocking.
		Now the anthropologists, they were shocked because it would ruin their careers.
		They were expecting, oh, well, we'll get a date.
		So Virginia Steve McIntyre, she decided she was going to stick with her dates.
		Now here's what happened to her.
		She couldn't get them published.
		She couldn't get the reports published.
		She was labeled a maverick and a publicity seeker in her profession.
		She lost the teaching position that she held at an American university.
		And finally, she was forced out of her job, and she couldn't work as an archaeologist, I mean, a geologist again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what did she do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Change it all?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		What did she do?
		No, she's still sticking by her guns.
		And she and I were both actually on a show called Sightings a couple of weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know Sightings, of course.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And she's trying to get that message out.
		Now, this is one example of some very direct suppression that's going on.
		In another field, this Dr. John Mack, who's a psychiatrist at Harvard City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's been a guest on the program.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Now, here's what's happened to him recently.
		We've received some communication from his attorneys who have told us that he's, of course, you know what he does.
		He has investigated reports of alien abductions of people under hypnosis.
		And Harvard University has convened a secret academic committee.
		And the report that this committee is delivering has said that he is acting irresponsibly as a scholar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And his attorneys say that this report will be used to attempt to take away his tenure and perhaps even to institute a malpractice suit against him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		No, this is like the Galileo case all over again.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		So when we hear that, well, science is an objective process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it that there is some procedure in place to give Professor Mack an opportunity to defend the legitimacy of his views and research, correct?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what procedure is that?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		He has until according to the communications I saw, he has until March 15th to offer a defense.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And I think researchers around the country who are sympathetic to him are being asked to write to the administration of Harvard University in support of him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm so sorry to hear about that.
		I'm so sorry to hear about that.
		I thought we had taken a step forward and this sounds like one maybe two to the rear.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Art.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And this is these are the things that convinced me that it isn't so hard to see why evidence that goes against the standard used can be suppressed in other areas as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a pretty good example, all right, and I'm sorry to hear it.
		All right.
		I would like to begin taking some calls, if you would.
		Boy, that's really shocking news about Professor Mack.
		When did you get that news?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		This arrived in the mail a couple of months ago here at our offices, and it was directed to my co-author, Richard Thompson, who is the author of a book called Alien Identities, which deals with UFO questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let us begin taking a few calls, Michael.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Art Bell.
		This is Ed.
		I'm in War Locksburg, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Ed.
unidentified		A very good evening to you.
		I've been very interested.
		I've been following your program off of other stations, and it got shifted off a KSFO.
		I picked you up in my car.
		I don't have a phone there, and I can't get it in my house, but that's where I'm calling you from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		My friend, I have something that perhaps you'll laugh.
		But about a year ago, I came across a series of books, beginning in 1982, published by a credentialed person in Southern California who is a transcriber.
		The astounding thing about it is, and I'm shaken to even tell you this because I don't expect it to be believed, but there has been in print now since 1991 something called the new revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
		It is 760-odd pages in quotes.
		It's not a channel job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, can you give us a brief idea of what it is about?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		It starts with the premise that the spiritual progression in what is known as the multiverse, universe, planet, earth, everywhere, is now such that a direct revelation can be put into plain English instead of the language of correspondences that is used in the Bible.
		Because at that time, humanity and much else was in its infancy and had to be told, like, don't touch this radiator.
		It was, or else, and no explanations.
		The astounding thing is that it sets forth, in quotes, as I say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotta hurry here.
unidentified		Yeah, it sets forth the whole history of the human race, of humanity in general, its place, the extent and degree to which our guesswork has been nothing much more than that.
unidentified		And it confirms that we are a spliced job and probably 9th or 10th or 15th one down the line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you aware of this, Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I've heard similar things.
		I'm not aware of that exact book.
		No.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all I can say is you should, sir, share the source with us.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		So please feel free to share the source, facts, or write to me.
		Let me know how to get hold of it, and we will do some investigation.
		That's all I can promise.
		Michael Cremo is my guest.
		The Hidden History of the Human Race is book.
		We'll be right back.
		Now, Michael Cremo.
		Michael, here is yet another facts.
		Your guest's theory on the origin of man is nearly identical to the descriptions by Randolph Winters in his book on the Pleiadians.
		That's from Richard in, I'm sorry, from John in Richland, Washington.
		Now, Michael, does that sound familiar to you?
		Do you know about Randolph Winters?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I'm not familiar with all the details of his idea.
		What I will say is I think one of the characteristics of what I'm presenting is that it is not unique.
		As I've said, it's something that you will find mentioned in channeled communications.
		You will find it mentioned in this idea of the cosmic hierarchy.
		And as I said, practically every cultural and spiritual tradition that's ever existed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much credibility do you give to channelers, Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, it all depends.
		Practically every communication that we have from higher dimensions, you could say, is in one way or other channeled.
		Now, you may call it divine inspiration or the Holy Spirit speaking through someone, but I think channeling as a phenomenon, as a way of getting information from the higher levels in the hierarchy is a very well-established fact.
		Now, what may be coming through those channels, I think we have to judge, because sometimes you may be getting disinformation.
		I think this happens in many of the UFO communication.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it happens in all related fields, I'm sure.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, I'm sure.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		I have two quick questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, where are you?
unidentified		Tacoma, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tacoma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Earlier your guests said that we've been, as humans, existing on the earth with all the creatures, including Bigfoot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I was wondering what he thinks of some of the stories that I've heard about Bigfoot in connection with UFO sightings.
unidentified		All right.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, I was alluding to that before.
		I was saying that we can't consider these creatures simply to be just sort of like big apes.
		They seem to have, some of them, have powers that go beyond what normal animals would be expected to have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there is indeed quite a literature on reports of these creatures in connection with They seem to have powers, for example.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very unusual that none of them have ever been captured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you mean powers of eluding hunters?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Powers for eluding hunters.
		Also having been sighted in connection with these UFO objects.
		Also, if you look at traditional accounts from the American Indians of these creatures, they tend to manifest some mystic powers, as do many of the other animals that may be mentioned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, with respect to the UFOs, I guess it would make sense, Michael, that they would keep track of one species or Bigfoot along with human beings who have been abducted and animals that we consistently hear are abducted for one reason or another.
		So if your theory, if one accepts your theory, then it would make sense that UFOs would monitor these creatures as much as they might monitor us, only there would be far fewer of them.
		So I guess all that would make some sense.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Jack from Charleston, South Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jack.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I wanted to ask your guest if he knows the air date of the sightings program that he said he taped a couple of weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
		That show has already aired.
		It aired this past winter.
		I forget what day it aired.
		It's already been on the air.
		I will mention, however, that I'm now working as a consultant for one of the major networks for a television special.
		I can't reveal too much about it, but it'll be coming out in the fall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Also, I want to ask quickly, I went to tell someone in my house what you were already talking about, and it came back.
		You mentioned something not too bad about Dr. Professor Mack.
		Is that John Mack, the one who did alien investigations?
		What were you saying about him?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
		I hate to have to go over it again, but basically, Harvard is challenging Dr. Mack's credentials and area of investigation, and there's going to be some hearings or something.
		Is that about right, Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the charge is that he's been acting irresponsibly as a scholar in suggesting that there may be some actual truth behind these stories of alien abduction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there you are.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello, this is Fritz von Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Fritz.
unidentified		Well, over and over again, there's one mystery that baffled mankind for so many years, and I'm sure every one of you listening, these radio audience here, is aware of it, that the Yeti or the Abominable Snowman, Sasquatch, or the Bigfoot definitely have a connection with UFO.
		In my opinion, they're all under the umbrella of the extraterrestrial presence, and they were brought here to our planet for whatever reasons.
		Michael, can you accept that?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is Michael's theory of an extraterrestrial origin if we trace it back far enough, all of the creatures on this planet.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And it may be quite a complex series of events that led to all of the creatures on this planet being placed here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder why the extraterrestrials decided to put so many varieties of human beings here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any thoughts on that?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would appear that now, from ancient Sanskrit writings, we learned that there are 400,000 human species scattered throughout the universe.
		So we may be getting, and it would appear also from the UFO literature that there are many types of aliens.
		There are the standard graves, there are the so-called Nordic type.
		It would appear there you also have a variety.
		So it doesn't surprise me that we may have been visited many times and that human history may be much more complex than we've been led to imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, when you stick with simple archaeology, when you simply challenge traditional scientific theories regarding how long we've been here and how we developed, it seems to me you're on one ground.
		When you jump to an explanation that involves extraterrestrials, then you put yourself in exactly the same position as Dr. Mack is now in, and it makes it much easier for the traditional scientific community to throw fertilizer on your whole theory.
		Yes?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, they'll also try to object to even the archaeological evidence as you were suggesting earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know, but they hardly even have to bother with that, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, given what you've given them, I mean, it makes it easy for them, doesn't it?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there's another whole area of knowledge suppression going on, and that has to do with anything connected with the paranormal or the extraterrestrial and supernatural, whatever you want to call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I'm saying.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And I think now what I want to do is directly confront the scientific community on those points.
		And I don't think I'm alone in this.
		We're seeing, for example, you have in existence today an international society for the study of subtle energy medicine, which is composed of about 1,200 medical professionals and biologists that are looking at subtle healing and subtle energies.
		In other words, if we're going to have an alternative explanation of human origins, the first thing that we have to show is that there is more to the human essence than can be explained by chemistry, biochemistry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, it's a very good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sure.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And you have the Institute for Noetic Sciences.
		You have many individual scholars who are courageously investigating these things.
		So I see that there is, and it may sound like a cliché to say it, but there is a paradigm shift underway.
		And I think it's making a lot of progress.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I thought so too, but hearing about Professor Mack makes me wonder.
		And maybe you're underestimating the resistance that the traditional scientific community will put up.
		It will be stiff, it will be strong, and it will virtually ridicule people like yourself and John Mack and others.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, these are the standard tactics.
		The first line of defense is to try to ignore something.
		When you can no longer try to ignore something, then you ridicule it.
		That's right.
		And then if that doesn't work, then you get the heavier kinds of suppression.
		I think we have to look and see, well, what happened in the case of communism, for example?
		Right up to the last minute, they were in charge.
		They were still in charge.
		But there was so much going on underground and around the sides that eventually the system collapsed, even though right up to the last minute it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying traditional science will collapse the way communism did all at once, nearly with no warning, joom, boom, the fences come down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that right?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Because there are so many people who do not believe in it anymore.
		There are so many cracks in the consensus.
		There are so many independent scholars investigating these things and counter, and as I said, so many organized attempts by scholars who are a little bit more independent to investigate these subjects.
		So I think the combined weight of that will eventually bring about a collapse of the current consensus.
		And it's only been around for about 200 or 300 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		All right, Michael, let's stay with the phones here.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Sarasota, Florida.
unidentified		Excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, you're on the air.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		What comes to my mind, I admit I missed about a half hour of your show here, but I'm thinking about a photograph I saw that claims to be a sandal print with a crustrilobite underneath, which predates most life forms on this planet by several million years.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		What you're talking about is the Meister footprint discovered by Robert Meister in Utah.
		And my co-author, Richard Thompson, went and visited Mr. Meister.
		He's no longer living, but at the time he was living.
		And we obtained photographs, our own photographs of those footprints.
		Now, those footprints were discovered in Cambrian shale in Utah.
		And that rock in which those sandal prints were found is roughly 600 million years old.
		And as I've pointed out several times, according to what the scientific elite will tell us today, human beings like us have only been around on this planet about 100,000 years.
		As a matter of fact, 600 million years ago, they would say there was no life on the surface of the Earth at all.
		Maybe there would have been some marine creatures, just life in the ocean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, what about the shop?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Those prints are there, and we did a computer analysis of them.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		We found that the shape of that print did not deviate in the slightest from a modern human shoe print.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, what about the possibility that that print was somehow, somehow, put in that older rock in more recent times?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you discount that possibility?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, from the testimony of the person who discovered it, who said he was a rock collector, and he was going through an area with one of those little geologist picks, and he was breaking open, he was looking for trilobites, which are those little fossils of these little shellfish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And he was breaking open solid pieces of this rock.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		So it was not something that somebody could have carved into a rock like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I've got you.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi, where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is Dave in Wichita.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Dave.
unidentified		I wondered if Michael had heard about the age of the Sphinx being at least 10,000 years old and that some evidence in the Pernas, the ancient Indian writings, say that it's about 100,000 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, the Sphinx.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Dave, I'm very familiar with that.
		You're talking about the work of Dr. Robert Schock, who is a geologist at Boston University.
		He analyzed the Sphinx, the weathering of the Sphinx, and determined that it was far older, many thousands of years older, than current Egyptologists would say.
		And here's, I'll tell you about how this knowledge suppression factor operates.
		He wants to go back and conduct further studies, but the Antiquities Department, the government of Egypt, the department in charge of those monuments, will not let him go back right at the present moment.
		Now, the Egyptians themselves, if you look at the ancient Egyptian writings themselves, they have a list of pharaohs going back 400,000 years.
		The Babylonians also have king lists going back 400,000 years.
		So this is, most people are not aware of these facts.
		You read in your standard textbooks about Egyptian history, it only goes back a few thousand years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Good evening.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Are we on the air right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we're on the air, sir.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		Yeah, I didn't mean to get on the air.
unidentified		I just wanted to find out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, if we don't want to be on the air, I'm going to have to go to the next call.
unidentified		I just wanted to find out what times Dreamland is on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's on right now.
unidentified		Yeah, but through the week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dreamland is not on during the week.
unidentified		Only weekends?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's correct.
unidentified		What times?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		7 to 10.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Saturday and Sunday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		7 to 10 Pacific time, Sunday.
unidentified		Not on Saturday?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, good evening, Art.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		My name's Ed from Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I have a question to ask him.
		He's familiar with Scientific American publication, isn't he?
		Yes, I am.
		Yeah.
		About four years ago, there was an article that was written about the genetic study that was trying to correlate orangutans back to humans.
		And the study concluded that this wasn't feasible.
		But the genetic study put man all the way back 150,000 to 200,000 years ago, and the origin took place somewhere near Egypt.
		And this was a very, very precise scientific study.
		And when they were ready to release their findings, they found out that Japan had done exactly almost an identical, similar study.
		And the data was very, very comparable to one or the other.
		And it stated that they didn't know how man started.
		And they were kind of tongue-in-cheek by calling it Eve as a starting of origin of man.
		150 to 200,000 years ago.
		And this was done in a very, very scientific genetic basis.
		Could you answer on that, please?
		Well, it's very interesting.
		What happened was that a couple of years later, that African Eve hypothesis was shot down because other scientists came and proved that the statistics that were used in those reports just did not work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on that note, we've got a break right here.
		It is the top of the hour.
		Relax for a few moments, Michael, and we'll come back to you.
		Michael Cremo is my guest.
		His book, The Hidden History of the Human Race, and there's a lot.
		We'll be back.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		Hot talk?
		Hot talk?
		This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
		Please do not call.
		From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The listeners to my regular weeknight program, no doubt, will appreciate this, Art, after listening to you and your guest and given our warlike disposition not to get along with each other.
		Could Earth be your Dahmer Island?
		Fred Kogo, yeah, sure it could, Fred.
		Dahmer Island is sort of an invention of mine, a place where criminals would be taken.
		Obviously, his theory that all of Earth is some sort of Dahmer Island, that we are prisoners from some other place or time.
		One never knows.
		Let me begin this hour.
		we're going to take care of our commercial content here of the secret company so The rock was dated somewhere around 500,000 years ago.
		Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I've heard about it.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I haven't been able to get any very detailed information about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The clear implication of that would be either alien technology or technology once before developed by man, long forgotten, and now, of course, full circle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it would suggest one of those two.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you're absolutely right there.
		And the whole idea of cyclical time, things coming and going, is an idea that I'm very much in favor of.
		Actually, if you look at Aristotle back in the time of the Greeks, He had the same idea.
		He said the great inventions of human civilization have been made time and time and time again in the course of cyclical time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you don't find that to be in competition with your hypothesis?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
		As a matter of fact, it tends to match up with it.
		What we find, if you look at the entire history of archaeology and anthropology, is that you've got a very bewildering mixture of advanced artifacts and simple things, human bones and ape-man-like bones, all mixed up going back hundreds of millions of years.
		And this is really what you would predict if there were a kind of cyclical pattern to this whole process that we're involved in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back to the phones.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		From the Tri-Cities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tri-Cities, Washington, yes.
unidentified		Yes.
		There's an anagram for some of these different artifacts.
		Artifacts at a time or something like that.
		I've read several books about this.
		Oh, the gold chain found with two lumps of coal at either end.
		And like an art school in France where you could see where somebody had corrected, made correction lines and stuff.
		And there were normal people wearing trousers and shirts with buttons and stuff like that.
		I was wondering if he had heard about any of this.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have.
		Of course, that anagram you're talking about is OOP arts, out-of-place artifacts.
		And gold chain, I've got a case of that in the book, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, how do they generally dismiss what you're calling OOPS art?
		How do they dismiss it?
		As I said.
unidentified		How do they dismiss out-of-place artifacts?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, do they call it fantasy, people at the time, or what?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, in many cases, this has been so effectively suppressed that they hardly even know about it.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Usually, they will try to say it's a hoax, it's intrusive, somehow or other, it's slipped down from some higher level down to some lower level, which is why in our book, Hidden History of the Human Race, we tend to concentrate on cases that are very well documented and where all these possible counter-explanations are dealt with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, it really sounds like it's worth a read, and you haven't done it, so I will ask you to do it.
		Plug your book.
		How do people get a copy of the hidden history of the human race?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's available in bookstores, and if it's not in a bookstore, we have an 800 number, 1-800-443-3361, that you can call during business hours during the week and order the book that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me give the number again.
		1-800.
		How much is the book?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		$22.95.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's a hardback.
		Very nice book.
		I've got it here.
		1-800-443-3361.
		And increasingly, it sounds like it's well worth the read.
		I'd like to say I've read it already, Michael, but I will now dive into it.
		You've intrigued me.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, there.
		Mr. Cremo, you mentioned technology, or we were talking about technology just a couple minutes ago.
		Do you have any detailed information or any kind of information about what different kinds of technologies were used by man in his more advanced stage as he was planted on the planet?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		From the reports that you get from many ancient writings, it would appear they had some very advanced technologies.
		From the ancient Sanskrit writings of India, you find what are called Vimanas or spaceships of various kinds.
		We've actually got reports from coal mines of polished stone walls being found in coal mines two miles deep underneath the ground.
		So from varieties of sources, whether we're talking about archaeology or ancient writings, it would appear that civilizations in the very, very distant past may have had technologies superior to those of today even.
unidentified		Okay, and those technologies, would you know if they were more tied in with the natural forces of the Earth rather than an artificial type of technology?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, were they in tune with the planet in some way that we were not or presently are not, Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, even if you go back a little bit in recorded history to the times of the Greeks and the Romans and personalities like that, you'll find that many times they got their technologies from higher beings.
		They didn't build factories on this planet to build them, but they would communicate with higher beings and receive technologies, more advanced technologies, from them.
		So that kind of technology exchange has a long history on our planet.
		It may still be going on today for all we know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Faxed question for you, Michael.
		Do you think there's any indication that these extraterrestrial intelligences have guided or interfered with human history?
		Are you familiar with the book called The Gods of Eden by William Bramley?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That is a very common hypothesis.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I think you'll also find it in Zachariah Sitchin and others.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Where I might disagree with some of these accounts is that it's been going on much longer than they would suppose.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		In many cases, they tend to accept the standard idea of human evolution as it's printed in the textbooks and then say at some fairly recent point in time you have some alien intervention That resulted in our human species as we know it today with our advanced civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could you give me a couple of examples of where you think they may have interfered, in effect, with human history?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, if you look at the whole history of the human race, you'll see many accounts of divine interventions.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Practically, the origin of every religion on this planet is attributed to some kind of intervention from some extraterrestrial source.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well then, here's a hell of a question for you, Michael.
		If everything went to hell in a handbasket in Russia, which frankly is very unstable right now, with, as you know, at least 30,000 deliverable nuclear weapons, and somebody over there went out of their mind and did the unthinkable and launched their weapons against us, if there would ever be a moment for intervention, that would be it.
		Would you think the launch and the war would be successful?
		In other words, in ending the human race, or would there be intervention?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		It's a very good question, Art.
unidentified		Yes.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		And I think this is something that comes up all of the time.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I think there's something pretty much of a cosmic paranoia when we're confronted either with the type of event that you've described or the fears of what different kinds of alien beings might do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, anything.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		But I would say this is where the cosmic hierarchy comes into being.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, well, let me add to it, Michael.
		Any species-threatening event.
		Let's say that Ebola Zaire became airborne and it threatened to end the species.
		Same question.
		Would there be intervention prior to a species-threatening event?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		In the case of any particular event, I couldn't say, but in general, in the ultimate sense, the forces in the cosmic hierarchy are at the top good.
		They're well-wishers to us.
		And in the end, in the final analysis, the powers of good that are watching over this whole hierarchy will prevail.
		And I think even now they are limiting the influence of elements in the hierarchy that may not be so benign.
		And I think this is something we can all take comfort in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Arkville.
unidentified		This is Roy from Everett, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I'd like to ask Michael if he's seen any evidence of Atlanteans in his work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, Atlantis.
		Yes, Michael.
		Your view on that?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course, Atlantis is familiar to us from the ancient Greek writings as a sunken landmass that was previously inhabited by a race of people who had some advanced civilization.
		In the ancient Sanskrit writings with which I'm familiar, there are also descriptions of sunken landmasses that were previously inhabited.
		I think there's been some very good underwater archaeology done in the area of Bimini and the Bahamas, where there do appear to be stone structures deep down, deep in the ocean.
		So yes, I would be prepared to find evidence for sunken landmasses that were once inhabited.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, your turn with Michael Cremo.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oshkosh.
		All right.
		Welcome to the show.
unidentified		My name's Renzel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		How are you doing?
		Why?
		Well, Michael, I was wondering, I was talking about that a little bit earlier.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly what I suggested.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and well, I would give you my theory that if the UFOs or the extraterrestrials, Michael, are keeping track of all of us, they've got plenty of opportunity to do that with human beings, with cattle, with many of the things we hear about being abducted, but perhaps few opportunities to interface with Bigfoot because there are, I think arguably, very few Bigfoot creatures.
		So, obviously, anything connected to a UFO and a Bigfoot would be not a great surprise.
		There would be very few of them they could monitor.
		Wouldn't that be true?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		They appear to be rare, although you do get sightings around the world in varieties of locations, and even on the east coast of the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure you do, but I mean, how many have you seen?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I have not seen any myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same deal with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So at least they've got to be fairly rare.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		All right.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm calling from Cogo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, yes, sir.
unidentified		And, okay, Mr. Cremo?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		From what I understand, okay, you're saying that, all right, extraterrestrials have been coming down and affecting the evolution of man or actually creating man?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Very, very good question.
		It's a, as I was suggesting towards the beginning of the show, I think we are part of a cosmic hierarchy of beings, originally spiritual, originally spiritual, and we've come down from an original position, original higher dimensional spiritual position, and we've been placed in a position in this hierarchy.
		And the way that we've gotten here is that we've been given bodies by beings higher up in the hierarchy by a process of reproduction.
		In other words, these Beings higher up in the hierarchy, from descriptions you find in various ancient writings and also from evidence that we can see today, have bodies made of more subtle elements than we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, by a process of reproduction, I'm trying to listen very, very carefully to what you're saying here, Michael.
		Are you saying that we were created by those beings?
		In most senses.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, our bodies have been, in other words, there's a process of reproduction that's going on.
unidentified		If I could say one thing, see, the problem I have, okay, we have vestrital parts in our body, like a tailbone, an appendix.
		I mean, useless stuff to us as Homo sapiens.
		And another thing, too, if man's been around this long, you know, why isn't there a fossil record of actual bodies back, you know, 500 million years ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but there is, according to Michael Cremo, right, Michael?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's, you know, we were talking about that human skeleton found in the coal mine in Lacoupin County, Illinois.
		We got in touch with the Illinois Geological Survey, and we asked them, well, how old is the coal in that mine?
		And it's over, you know, it's 300 million years old.
		So we do have skeletons going back that far.
		And as far as these similarities with other creatures, that might just be a good design process where you start with a template and then you simply modify it to get different creatures rather than building each one up from scratch.
		I think that's a very common thing in engineering and software, computer software.
		You don't try to invent the wheel every time, but you start with some template or model and vary it slightly.
		So you might expect to find if you do have, say as the ancient Sanskrit writings say, 400,000 types of human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we would simply then, in essence, be the Rembrandt work of some greater intelligence, some extraterrestrial intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We would have been the final grand work to date of that intelligence, correct?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		that may be giving too much credit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd say the higher the higher.
		We're at a breakpoint.
		We'll be right back.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		This Hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
		Please do not cough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, on May 13th, we're going on vacation.
		Going to Hong Kong, China, into Red China if you'd like to come along on that side trip, then Bangkok, and then back home.
		The whole thing will last about eight days.
		Unfortunately, it is now on a space-available basis, which means you call the number I give you if there is any space left, or if they can find any, or if they have a cancellation, they will get you in.
		It's the name of the game.
		It's getting late.
		So if you would like to come along, I'll be there.
		My wife will be there.
		Bob and Sue Crane will be there.
		A lot of people are going to be there.
		If you'd like to come along, call 1-800-633-2732.
		That number is good at, oh, I think about 8 o'clock in the morning Pacific Coast Time.
		1-800-633-2732.
		My guest is Michael Cremo.
		His book and his theory, The Hidden History of the Human Race, actually, he represents it really as more than that because he says he has evidence.
		Evidence of man being far, far older than anybody else can guess.
		And we'll get millions of years, or even hundreds of millions of years, or even billions of years, and we'll get back to them in just a moment.
		The human race has been around for over several million or billion years.
		Would it be out of the realm of possibility that we achieved advanced space travel before?
		And if so, why would we not leave the planet in time of disaster and later return to rebuild and bring that same technology?
		Therefore, we should be more advanced.
		Roger.
		In Sparks, Nevada.
		He's saying, why haven't we been back?
		In other words, if there was an earlier civilization that achieved space travel and went somewhere else, why have we not been back?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd say to Roger, this has to do with the whole idea of cyclical time.
		As a matter of fact, from what we can see, and this appears to be even true geologically speaking, is that the Earth has, in fact, been through a series of devastations.
		We find this mentioned in many ancient writings, including the ancient Sanskrit writings of India.
		There are periodic devastations where advanced civilizations are wiped out.
		And then after that, there has to be a process, again, an extraterrestrial process of bringing the humans and civilizations back to this planet again.
		And it just may be that right at the moment we're in a downswing in one of these vast cosmic time cycles where the level of civilization tends to be going down rather than up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me sort of back that up, Michael.
		I do a daily talk show that deals with events going on on a daily basis, politics, human behavior, and all the rest of it.
		And many times I have observed, and I feel many times, now I realize my observation span is very short.
		We are all mortal, and we don't have a lot of time to look at the bigger picture.
		But a lot of times, Michael, it seems as though our Social behavior is deteriorating as though socially we are devolving, not evolving.
		Would you comment?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		According to the ancient Sanskrit writings, we are in what is called the Kali Yuga, which is in this cycle of time, a period in which human behavior is predicted to devolve.
unidentified		Devolves.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		So I wouldn't be surprised, and I've noticed some of the same things that you have in terms of these social trends over even short periods of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that we have a long enough span to really make a valid observation.
		It's kind of shooting from the hip, but it does look that way at times, Michael, as though we are devolving.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Hi.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Hi, this is Steve from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Steve.
unidentified		And I was just wondering if the human race was supposed to be around for millions of years, that wouldn't we be more advanced now than we are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a very good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And, Michael, to add to what he just said, why has most of the technological development come so quickly here in the last 50 years, let's say?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so, Steve, I think we have become conditioned to what I would call the linear progressive time sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Where we think that everything goes from the simple to the more complex without a break.
		In other words, if it was older, it must be simpler, and if it's newer, it's more advanced, and in the future, things are going to become more and more advanced.
		This idea of cyclical time that I was talking about may be a more accurate reflection of what happens over the long term in human history.
		And as I was suggesting just a moment ago, we may be in a little bit of a downswing right at the moment.
		Now, as far as what you were mentioning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, socially, Michael, it seems like socially we may be in a downswing, but technologically, we appear to be chugging right along, and that's a fairly recent development.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The last 50 years technologically, it's really taken off.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, one way to look at this is that previously, a lot of the things that we do now with machines were previously done directly by people.
		In other words, they had the ability to see things at a distance.
		Now, some people appear to have that even today as one of the extrasensory powers.
		Now, we may be duplicating that now that people are no longer able to exercise these powers through their physical organisms, we may be trying to duplicate them through technology.
		And that may not be an improvement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seems as though the powers we have, for example, to precognition is a good example.
		I've had one example of it myself, Michael, an experience of precognition.
		I definitely knew an event was coming.
		There's no question about it.
		Only one in my whole life.
		I've talked to other people who have had similar events.
		Is this a talent once held, now only occasionally to rise to the surface, or is it a talent we are now developing for the future?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		It appears to be, if you look at the broad sweep of human history, even as it's recorded in our history books, that these powers were apparently much more common in previous ages.
		And if you look towards the beings that are a little bit higher up in the cosmic hierarchy in human beings, they seem to have these powers to a degree that we can only imagine.
		So it would appear that now we are in a condition where these powers, which are natural on one level, have become weakened.
		But they could be developed again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
		Good evening.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Roy and Everett.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everett, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Roy.
unidentified		That's right.
		I'd like to ask Michael Cremo if he believes that the mammals of the sea were brought from outer space.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The mammals of the sea.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Roy, I think all the living things on this planet have an extraterrestrial origin ultimately.
		And this is an idea that, well, the ancient Greeks had as well.
		For example, you had Plato talking about forms, ideal forms of all creatures originally existing on some higher dimension, and they're projected somehow down to this dimension and given physical form.
		So I think we've got to look off of this planet for the origin of all the species, whether we're talking about the mammals in the oceans or the ones walking around on the land.
		And I think there are all kinds of extraterrestrial contacts that have taken place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me throw a little monkey wrench maybe in all of this.
		Michael, how would you account for new species?
		Not only do some species, according to scientists, become extinct, but there are new species that appear on the planet.
		Now, are these carried down by our extraterrestrial friends, or are they just a product of nature and the evolution of mammals and all matter on this earth?
		In other words, how did these new species get here?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		On the wider cosmic scale, from the information that I've gathered from various sources, including the ancient writings of various countries, including the Sanskrit writings of India, is that there is a fixed number of species numbering in the millions on the universal level.
		And these may be imported to the earth that we know on different time scales.
		In other words, somewhere, all of the species are always existing, but at any particular time and place, only some of them may be visible to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And through what means do they arrive here?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes by extraterrestrial means, sometimes by, you might call it intra-dimensional means.
		It gets you to a whole area.
		We may not even be able to penetrate all the regions of this earth.
		That is something that we've heard down through history.
		For example, the Hopi Indians say that they come up from four different levels below the Earth.
		In other words, there's some subterranean regions there that normally human beings and animals can't penetrate.
		So there may be dimensions even to this Earth that we're not able to penetrate.
		And perhaps some of these creatures enter and leave the world of our experience from these nearby regions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dimensional portals.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, my name is Nick.
unidentified		Yes, Nick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Nick.
unidentified		Well, Michael, I tend to disagree with you.
		I think it's obvious that evolution happened by itself.
		Look at dogs and cats and what's a hyena.
		You know what I'm saying?
		There's no animal.
		There's no plant.
		I would say that plants and animals evolved from one being that I would call God.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		We might have a disagreement if we see what the process is.
		If you're talking about, because I would agree with you that there's God at the top of the hierarchy, and there's a process of descent with modification by which from one generation to another, all the creatures that were familiar with on this earth, including ourselves, have been produced.
		Now, but that's not the kind of evolution that you'll find described in the Bible, the Darwinian textbook.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Darwinian or the Bible.
		So it argues with both.
		And I take it, Caller, you're uncomfortable with that.
unidentified		Well, I'm looking at the sex contract right now by Helen E. Fisher.
unidentified		Have you read that?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		I haven't.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		If you could tell me about it, I'd be like to hear it.
unidentified		Well, it's very informative.
		I like it a lot.
		It's kind of feminist view of how evolution went.
		But it's really about sex as it went and how we evolved.
		But it basically, what I think is that if you look at chimpanzees and gorillas and orangutans, in the regions they are today, you would see that the orangutans are near Asians and the chimpanzees tend to be more like white people and gorillas more like black people.
		And if you look at, say, Asians today and Indians, American Indians, and then look at Eskimos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never heard it quite suggested that way.
		That's very interesting.
		How would you respond to that, Michael?
		That there appears to be that connection to some of the major racial variations on the earth today.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I don't accept that we have come from monkeys or orangutans or gorillas.
		The fossil evidence, the actual physical evidence that we document in our book, The Hidden History of the Human Race, shows that simply we've coexisted with these creatures for millions and millions of years.
		There's no physical evidence at all that we've evolved from them.
		So right from the start, I would have to respectfully disagree with the hypothesis being presented.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am curious, Michael, see if you can answer this straight out.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you find more fanatical resistance to your hypothical, or I guess you could even suggest the evidence of the evolution of the human being?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you find more exception to it from the scientific or religious community?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		It's very interesting that I've been finding that I've been able to go all over the world, and I have been, I've been able to make these presentations to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, the question again, from which camp do you think you find more stringent objection, scientific or religious?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		The most objection I have been finding is from those who are in the mainstream scientific establishment.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		That is where the most opposition that I have encountered has been coming from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine that would be true because at least your theories involve a concept of creation that the religious folks might be able to be more comfortable with than the scientific people.
		I see.
		All right, first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Joe up in Reno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Joe.
unidentified		And it's a pleasure to call you, Art.
		I listen in every now and then whenever I can.
		And I have a thought on this.
		You know, we're electrochemical devices.
		We're perfect androids, biochemical computers, if you really look at us in a big picture.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		And the electro being the spirit, the android, the movement, the device that moves around is the chemical.
		Who knows where it goes in stores, maybe in the ozone layer or whatever, but you could see how things could be, spirits could be implanted or beings could come into us through something like that.
		It's a very tangible and logical way.
		And I wondered if Mr. Cremo had had any experience in dealing with it in that logic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It may be the last answer we have time for.
		Go ahead, Michael.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Joe.
		I think you mentioned something that's very important.
		It seems like if we want a good metaphor for the entire universe and our place in it, it may be like a virtual reality system on a computer.
		Now, if you know how those operate, that means you take somebody who's outside the computer and you hook up different devices to their senses, like you put little What they call iPhones over their eyes.
		They're all video monitors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		So that it creates the sense of being involved in the computer world, even though they're outside of it.
		So, in one sense, you could say that the person is being implanted into the virtual reality system inside the computer.
		So, I think you're mentioning soul, and I think what we really are is we are souls who have been implanted by some system into a virtual reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that is where we're going to have to end it, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly, because we're out of time, where can they get your book?
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		The book is available by an 800 number, 1-800-443-3361.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		It's also available at Barnes & Noble and other book chains.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the program.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Art, it's been a pleasure for me as well.
michael cremo ▲ ● ▼		Hope we get to talk again sometime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		my friend.
		That's Michael Cremo and his version of the Hidden History of the Human Race.
		To get a copy of this program, call 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		Thank you all, and we'll see you again next Sunday at 7 Pacific time.
		From the high desert, good night, everybody.
		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not matched.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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