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March 12, 1995 - Art Bell

01:56:07

Dreamland with Art Bell - The Hidden History of the Human Race - Michael Cremo

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	I'm Art Bell, the guy who's usually on in the morning, so it's hard to get rid of that habit.
	And in some cases, in fact, Greenland does air in the morning, as it is repeated across this nation.
	It's good to be here.
	As the opening told you, we discuss things that are not quite so easily put in a box every week, and that will be the case this week as well.
	It should be intriguing.
	Don't you want to know about the origins of the human race?
	Well, I do and have for a long time, and we've got a man with another theory this evening, Michael Cremo, and he'll be coming to us all the way from Florida.
	First, however, as we do every week, coming to us from Philadelphia once again, It is Linda Howe, home once again in Philadelphia.
	Linda, good evening.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi, how's everything?
	Well, it's been spring today, and I think there's some hope of getting out of all this water and winter that everybody's been coping with, and that's a good step.
	Well, everybody in California has the same wish with regard to water.
	That's right.
	And remember back in September I announced that my book, Glimpses of Other Realities, was going to be carried by Barnes & Noble?
	Yes.
	Well, dozens of our Dreamland listeners called in frustration to tell me the book wasn't in the Barnes & Noble system then, as I was told it would be.
	Recently, however, I had the pleasure of walking into a large Barnes & Noble bookstore in Philadelphia and discovering copies of Glimpses displayed on a shelf.
	So the book is finally and officially in the Barnes and Noble stores and system, and to our Dreamland listeners, if you can't find a shelf copy, all you have to do is order through the computer system.
	My goal in doing the books and documentaries has been to share with as large a general audience as possible the difficult and complex information about non-human interaction on our planet.
	So I'm grateful for this larger bookstore connection and hope all our listeners will encourage Barnes & Noble to keep carrying books like Blimps' as we try to deal with these difficult subjects.
	Hey Linda, I'm curious, how does it feel to go to a big bookstore and see your own books sitting there?
	Well, it was so, to use the phrase, it made my heart sing because I don't think anybody could possibly know how
	difficult the last 15 years of my life have been because I have chosen to explore these subjects.
	I'm certain that's true.
	But to see your own work there in a major bookstore must have been a serious thrill.
	It is, and I hope our listeners will continue to call on Barnes & Noble and their other bookstores, because the more that people ask for books like Limpses of Other Realities and Alien Harvest, the more we'll be able to sustain keeping those books in these bookstores.
	Now, this week I was also a guest on the NBC weekly television show, The Other Side, which in this case was a show about investigators of the paranormal.
	That program, The Other Side, is broadcast after the morning news show on NBC and is focusing on some of the same subjects that we cover in Dreamland, so I encourage our radio listeners to look for The Other Side in their TV guide.
	They asked me to come back, and when I know that next date, I'll let everybody know.
	Alright, so are you saying it's already aired?
	Yeah, it aired this past week, and I did not know precisely the date when we were on last Sunday, and it turned out that it was on that Wednesday, and I've gotten so many calls, and apparently they're going to try to do another show, and I'll for sure find out and let you guys know.
	Oh, please.
	Alright.
	Now this past week I also received a call from a retired police officer named Bill Hill who worked for 25 years in the Peoria, Illinois Police Department and then retired to Salmon, Idaho, a very remote wilderness area of northern Idaho.
	Mr. Hill owns some horses and had bought a new buckskin on January 12th.
	Two weeks later, on January 26th, he was shocked to find the horse dead and mutilated.
	He was very frustrated.
	He did not know that there were people like myself and Dr. Achula and others investigating cases like this and he finally contacted me this week because He, the law enforcement there, and the veterinarian who examined the horse are completely baffled.
	This is Mr. Hill's eyewitness account.
	When I saw the horse laying there, I saw a large wound in the side of his neck with blood on it.
	And the blood was still steaming.
	And the snow was still melting on the horse, so he was fairly warm.
	So I told her not to go near it, and I backtracked.
	I didn't go within 10, 15 feet of the horse.
	Could you see any tracks on that moist ground?
	Absolutely none.
	It was a fresh snow, and the other horses hadn't been down in that lower pasture, and there were no tracks down there, and there was no tracks when I walked up to it.
	So we went back to the phone, called the Sheriff's Department, and a deputy come out, and when he came out, we got our flashlights, We walked a little closer and at that time I also observed there was a large patch of skin off the belly towards the rear end and it was probably a foot to a foot and a half in diameter and it went around behind the base of the penis and there wasn't any skin on his penis either.
	So it was as if the hide had been removed, tied deep down to the surface of the muscle and that the surface hide of the penis was removed also.
	Right.
	It was just the stomach hadn't been penetrated.
	It hadn't gone into the stomach cavity or anything.
	It just took the outside layer of skin off there.
	So my first impression when I saw the hole was that somebody shot it from the highway.
	And he's a buckskin horse and an elk colored.
	During hunting season we have a lot of accidents where cattle and horses are shot or sometimes it's just vandalism.
	So when I saw the damage done to the horse, I thought it was strange that whoever, if somebody had shot it from a distance, that they would come up this close to our house and do what they did to the horse.
	This is only about 300 feet from my house.
	It's out in plain sight out in the pasture and it's right across, my neighbor right across the road from me.
	It's approximately the same distance.
	We live on a dead-end road, and the road ends about 300 feet up before where the horse was.
	So if anybody had been out there an hour before you arrived, which was broad daylight since the horse was still steaming, you would think that it would have been obvious for someone to be in that pasture with that horse.
	They would have had to walk several hundred feet in the open to walk up to this area.
	And if anybody would have been in our house or at the neighbor's home would have seen it, why, it would have been obvious.
	And they obviously spent some time down there skinning it and to take the skin off of it for the job that they did.
	So we walked, made a big circle around the area where the horse was.
	We walked into the neighbor's pasture between the highway and our place.
	The highway's about five, six hundred feet away.
	And we made a big loop all the way around and we walked down into a pasture behind us and we found no tracks at all, no evidence where anybody had been on the property at all.
	It probably had been snowing maybe an hour, two hours.
	There was a couple inches of snow on the ground.
	It was a wet snow and for the way that the blood was steaming coming out of the hole in the neck, it appeared very warm and the snow was still melting on the horse.
	When I looked at it, I didn't really realize it until I went up to the sheriff's office and got the pictures of it today.
	There was snow underneath the horse and there was snow in a place, in places where it couldn't, the horse couldn't have been laying there and it snowed over him.
	There had to have been snow on the ground where the horse was laid down.
	It was pretty obvious to us that he died right where he dropped.
	But the only wound that we could see was a hole in the neck.
	And this removal of the hide.
	Plus the removal of the hide.
	So my first thought was that it had been shot in the neck.
	And the head was taken to a veterinarian here.
	And they cut it off to examine it.
	And they x-rayed it and they could find no bullet fragments or wadding from a shotgun shell or anything inside it.
	And the veterinarian that autopsied it said that she'd never seen anything like it.
	That definitely wasn't a gunshot wound.
	It only went into the neck about two to three inches.
	And the x-ray didn't show any lead fragments or anything where a bullet would have done any damage or broken up inside the neck.
	And Mr. Hill also learned that the Salmon, Idaho Sheriff's Department received a report about a UFO in the area around the time of the horse's death in January.
	Oh, I was going to ask about that, and there it is, the connection.
	Yep.
	And I think that you can't stress enough the bizarre high strangeness of a horse found lying on two inches of snow with this kind of a hole in the neck with the hide in a very clean cut, only high, deep across
	the belly and picking the skin, even of the scrotum and the penis, very thinly, without any
	sign of any tracks anywhere in the entire pasture or around that horse, and with no signs
	of any fluid or any blood on the snow.
	Give me a guess.
	What do I think happened?
	Yep.
	Well, I think it fits into these other eyewitness reports that I have brought to Dreamland this
	past year.
	from people like Mr. McKnight in Oregon who encountered the mutilated animal out in Sand Springs and found a rancher there who was living in a trailer who described for him how he had seen glowing white glowing spheres in the sky come over the pasture send down beams of light had watched animals from the pasture rise in those beams of light And then when they were returned, they were either returned down the beam of light or were simply dropped from some kind of an object in the sky.
	And when they dropped, they were there, dead, with these excisions.
	Now that could explain what happened to this horse in Idaho.
	And that is what could explain these other cases where cows have been found on wet sandbars with no tracks around them either.
	How about why?
	Well, then we get into what I have been trying to investigate for the last decade or so.
	The motive, the intent behind some non-human intelligence interacting with the plant, animal, and human life on our planet.
	And as Bud Hopkins keeps walking into the same seeming motive in the human abduction syndrome,
	genetic harvesting, that is one area that the abductees themselves have said that in the few cases
	that have involved both abductions and animal mutilations, that they understand that there is a harvesting of genetic
	material by something off-planet to create some sort of hybrid species that is part life on
	our planet and part something else out there.
	And that still does not answer the bigger question, why?
	It doesn't.
	We're all trying to find out.
	At least it helps, I guess.
	All right, Linda, a lot of people want to contact you for various reasons,
	including your books, your publications, to write you letters, to fax you.
	So why don't you give us your fax number and your address?
	Thanks, Art.
	I really, really do, uh, value the communication I'm getting from the Dreamland, uh, listeners.
	And I am Linda Howe at Post Office Box 538.
	in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, that's an English spelling, H-U-N-T-I-N-G-D as in dog, O-N,
	Huntingdon Valley, PA, zip code 19006, and my fax number is area code 215-491-9842.
	That is definitely the fax number, and again, post office box 538, Huntingdon Valley, PA, 19006.
	Excellent.
	Alright, um, I'm sure you'll get a number of communications from all of this.
	Once again, fascinating.
	Thank you, Linda.
	Next week, Philadelphia?
	Yeah, I am going to be in Philadelphia this month before, or until the end of the month, and then I'm going to be going to Tennessee, and I'll be doing reports from there, but I'll let you know.
	I will be here next Sunday, and I agree with you that the forbidden history of man, which is what I think we're dealing with, is going to be one of the continually emerging subjects over the next few years.
	My guess as well.
	Great.
	Thank you, Linda.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Linda Howe.
	Actually, it is the hidden history of the human race.
	But my guess is, by the time we're done, we'll find out it is forbidden as well, as in forbidden knowledge.
	Michael Cremo, or is it Cremo?
	We'll find out in just a second, has written a book called The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	And basically, I think he is going to suggest that our history as a human species is not as the scientists would have us believe.
	Perhaps not even close.
	He is a research associate with Bhaktivedanta, which is an institute that specializes in the history and philosophy of science.
	His persistent investigation during the eight years of writing his widely acclaimed forbidden archaeology has documented a major scientific cover-up.
	He's currently researching the companion volume to Forbidden Archaeology entitled The Descent of Man Revisited.
	It is a startling new explanation of human origins.
	So, let's go, I believe, all the way to Florida.
	And, uh, and say, hello, Michael.
	I'm gonna be, uh, I'm gonna be cautious here and just say, Michael, how do we pronounce your last name properly, Michael?
	Cremo.
	Cremo.
	That's right.
	So I had it right the first time.
	Uh, very good.
	Um, Michael, it's a very provocative title, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	How wrong do we have it about our origins?
	Well, if you listen to the current scientific establishment, they will tell you that human beings like you and I have only been on this planet for about 100,000 years.
	Right.
	And before that, you would have had more ape-like ancestors.
	But what I did was look into the entire history of archaeology and anthropology, look at every
	discovery that's ever been made over the past 150 years, and what emerged from that study
	is that there is a huge mountain of evidence suggesting that human beings like ourselves
	have been on this planet literally for hundreds of millions of years.
	But this evidence has been suppressed.
	It's been forgotten.
	It's been ignored.
	And I think the people of this country need to know about it.
	Oh, where do we start?
	Then you're saying that those who believe in evolution, scientific evolution as it has been laid out for us, those who believe in creation the way it's been laid out for us, both are wrong.
	That's right.
	In other words, I'll give you some examples of how this process of what we would call knowledge filtration has been going on for about 150 years.
	Now I can give you examples going all the way back to the 19th century, all the way up to the present.
	Let's start with the present.
	In 1979, Mary Leakey, who is one of the most famous archaeologists of this century, she discovered in Africa, in a country called Tanzania, some human footprints.
	And every expert who has looked at these prints has said they are no different than the footprints that you or I might make if we were walking on a beach today.
	The unusual thing about these prints, however, is that they were found in rock that is 3.6 million years old.
	Now, you know, I just told you the standard scientific doctrine is that human beings capable of making such prints have only been around for about 100,000 years.
	Yes.
	Somebody might say, well, maybe the ape men who lived at that time could have made those prints somehow.
	No, because the fossils fossil foot bones from those ancient ape men are in the
	museum.
	They do not fit those prints because they had very long curved toes.
	How do we know that the prints were made as long as you're saying they were?
	This is the information that is given to us by geologists.
	Now, you could always say, well, perhaps those dates are wrong, but what Richard Thompson, my co-author, and I did as part of our methodology was Uh, except for the sake of argument, the date that scientists give... All right, well, okay, that makes sense.
	Michael, we're at the bottom of the hour here, and we've got to pause.
	We've got a lot to do and a long way to go, so stay right where you are, and we'll be back to you in about four minutes.
	All right.
	Michael Cremo is my guest. The hidden history of the human race is his book and we will probe.
	From the kingdom of Nye, you're hearing Greenland with Art Bell.
	To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It absolutely is.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222 or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It absolutely is. Good evening and dreamland underway.
	Welcome to the hidden history of the human race, the entire human race.
	Michael Cremo, you're back on.
	Hi.
	Hi, Eric.
	Okay, Michael, it seems to me that if the history is not what the creationists say and if the history is not what Um, what evolutionists say, scientists, then it seems to me there's a whole group of people out there, experts of all kinds, who would like to take you and grind you into little pieces.
	Am I about right?
	Oh, I mean, this book, The Hidden History of the Human Race, has been causing shockwaves in the scientific community.
	We have Richard Leakey, for example.
	Do you know Richard Leakey?
	He says your book is pure humbug and does not deserve to be taken seriously by anyone but a fool.
	That's exactly the reaction I expected.
	And that's exactly what you would expect from one of the architects of this whole paradigm.
	But on the other hand, we do have some more independent researchers who are really cheering us on.
	Virginia Steen McIntyre, a geologist who had the misfortune to discover some of these unusual things, says this book is a real eye-opener, and that even she herself didn't realize how much evidence there really is out there.
	We're getting, as I said, a lot of positive reaction and a lot of negative reaction and I think that's what you have to expect from a book like this, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	Alright, I've got a little sheet from you and it suggests some myths that we suffer with, with traditional views, one of them being that we evolved from apes.
	That is indeed the traditional view, is it not?
	Ape became man.
	Yes, it is.
	If you go to any natural history museum and you'll see those little displays, the little ape-like creature, and then a slightly bigger ape-man, and then a bigger one, and a bigger one, and finally a human being right towards the end at about 100,000 years.
	That's right.
	That's what I'm noticing.
	You look on the television specials, Walter Cronkite, Carl Sagan, they'll all be saying that.
	They'll all be repeating.
	uh... the standard dogma but the actual fact that scientists have uncovered over the
	past hundred fifty years that we don't
	support that. Alright, well let's say Michael Cremo were to set up a
	demonstration a little demonstration of uh...
	uh... the same exact thing except following what you believe to be the
	Uh, during that whole span with all those little beings slowly becoming man, what would Michael Cremo's, uh, display look like?
	Well, we would have, uh, humans like us coexisting with these other creatures, just like today.
	You have human beings, you have a You have monkeys, and this will get us into a very interesting subject, but if you take very seriously the reports of the Sasquatch, the Bigfoot, the Yeti, it would appear that even today we are coexisting with some of these ape-man-like creatures.
	Now, we don't say that we're no ape-men.
	Alright, now, does that mean Sasquatch, in your view, is the caveman, simply reduced in numbers but still Barely here?
	Could be a survival of the Neanderthals or the Homo erectus type creatures.
	Now I will say that in many cases these creatures do seem to have some powers that ordinary animals don't.
	and uh... that will get us into a whole other subject but physically
	physically the descriptions of these creatures appear to match uh...
	the eight man like creatures we heard about from science
	and i'll also say now uh... you're mentioning i'm i'm uh... with the bhakti vedanta
	institute yes which is the science studies branch of the
	which is the science studies branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and
	international society for krishna consciousness and we get a lot of our inspiration from
	we get a lot of our inspiration from ancient writings of different civilizations, for
	ancient writings of you are mentioning I'm with the Bhaktivedanta Institute,
	example India. And in some of those ancient writings you do find descriptions of human civilizations
	going back hundreds of millions of years on this planet. You also find descriptions of very
	primitive ape man-like creatures who use stone tools. And when you look at the evidence it
	really appears that we have co-existed with these creatures and with apes and monkeys for as long,
	as far back as you would care Would it be your theory that we all arrived on the planet in whatever manner our arrival together?
	Yes, that is what the facts actually suggest.
	And how we got here, that's a subject we intend to go into quite deeply in our next book, which we call Human Devolution.
	Devolution.
	In what manner do you suggest we got here, if we all arrived at the same time?
	How long ago?
	Here's an interesting fact.
	The oldest artifact that we record in our book is 2.8 billion years old.
	Billion with a B?
	I'm sorry, Billion with a B?
	Billion with a B. This is a grooved metallic sphere that was found in South Africa by miners.
	They're mining near a town called Otostalen in South Africa, a mineral called pyrophyllite.
	And when the miners go into these deposits, they're finding perfectly round metal spheres.
	And this metal is very hard.
	It's so hard that you can't even scratch it with a steel point, which means it's about as hard as diamonds.
	And one of these spheres in particular had three parallel grooves going around its equator
	and no one has come up with a natural explanation for how these things could have been formed.
	Now a lot of them are kept in a natural history museum in a little town called Klerkstorp
	in South Africa and the Rolf Marx who was the curator there sent us some photographs
	of these objects which you can see some in our book.
	The mineral deposits in which these things are found, in which the miners found them
	are over two billion years old.
	Now so that's taking us back quite far.
	Sure is.
	According to your standard accounts, you wouldn't have, you would just have some maybe one-celled creatures living in the ocean at that time.
	So we think, and this is something that the standard scientists recognize, for example, William Howell, who's again one of the big anthropologists of this century, one of the architects of the current paradigm, When he read the Hidden History of the Human Race, he said, well, Michael, what you've done here is you've called into question not only our whole picture of human origins, but our whole picture of how life could have arisen on this planet.
	What you're suggesting is that no evolutionary idea that you could possibly think of could work.
	And that's a fact, so where we're headed is towards some kind of extraterrestrial.
	Oh, I was going to get to that.
	Well, are you believing then that some sort of extraterrestrial source is responsible for our creation, our placement here, and is still to this day watching over us?
	Well, I'll tell you what we're looking at.
	Right at the present moment, you've got three main theories of human origin.
	You've got, number one, the Darwinian idea that we evolve from some simple, one-celled creature.
	You could call that descent with modification, but starting with the simple things.
	and then gradually all the other plants and animals and finally the human beings come.
	Then you have the standard creationist idea, which is that God pops it all into being somehow right in the beginning.
	Then you have what I would call the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
	which places us as members of a kind of...
	of cosmic hierarchy and there are contacts between different planets and solar systems.
	Now from what we can see, my co-author and I, Richard Thompson, and drawing on some of our
	sources and these ancient Sanskrit writings, we're going to be taking elements from all
	three of those ideas and making a new synthesis. We think there's something Darwin had a little
	bit right, that there's some kind of descent with modification, but from what we can see,
	the descent is from higher beings, not on this planet, in other words not starting out with a
	one-celled creature, but starting out with some very powerful human-like creatures
	in this cosmic hierarchy.
	And there is some kind of process of descent with modification going on.
	Now, from that creationist account, which is the second main explanation, we would put some kind of god or supreme intelligence and designer at the top of the whole system, but he's not popping everything into existence at once.
	he's using a process which may involve extraterrestrial contacts as part of it, and the whole thing
	has been going on for hundreds of millions of years, so that if we want to untangle our
	history we may have to be dealing with all three of these.
	Isn't there some danger, though, in drawing from each one of the separate hypotheses that
	you will almost surely then get some part of it wrong?
	Well, we want to look at what the evidence actually suggests.
	And...
	And, of course, we could discuss that, but there is evidence for extraterrestrial contacts.
	There is evidence for some kind of supreme designing intelligence.
	Okay, Michael, let us say that it is so, that our beginnings were extraterrestrial in origin, and that there is some part of evolution that's in play as well.
	In other words, they started this, but we are Evolving or devolving, depending on how you look at it, and that's some sort of natural process.
	I'm not quite clear on the creator part of it.
	In other words, you feel there was some sort of creator even beyond our extraterrestrial parentage.
	In a higher spiritual dimension, starting the whole thing off.
	Right.
	A supreme intelligent being would be the source of what we would call a cosmic hierarchy of beings, which if you look at what people have thought and taught down through history, they pretty much have this hierarchy where you have human beings on the terrestrial level, more powerful types of beings, On a middle level, a celestial level, you might call it.
	If you go back to the time of the Egyptians, for example, they had their gods.
	The Romans, the Greeks, the Australian Aboriginals, the American Indians, they all had this hierarchy of human beings and then beings a little bit higher on the hierarchy with greater powers.
	Yes.
	What evidence is there for that?
	I think we get in, where that evidence comes from, the physical evidence that we can see is the sort of thing that Linda Howell was talking about.
	Ah, that's exactly where I was going.
	A little bit earlier.
	This is showing physical evidence for creatures a little bit higher up.
	Okay, is that, in your opinion, evidence then that those who created us of extraterrestrial origin continued to monitor not just us, but the animals and all of their creations here on Earth?
	Yes, this process of dissent with modification, as far as we can see, it involved a lot of Uh, a supreme being operating through these other creatures.
	You could call them extraterrestrials, angels, demigods, spirits, whatever you want to call them.
	But there is some process involved.
	It's not an instantaneous creation in the beginning.
	There is some kind of descent with modification going on.
	Some kind of, you could call it, consciously directed genetic engineering of some kind, but it's not the type
	that the scientists are currently telling us about because that's a purely random, accidental
	process.
	Michael, then who was Jesus?
	I think he would be one of the... if you look at what all cultures and traditions have said,
	in this cosmic hierarchy you find a level of compassionate beings who come from time
	to time from their higher level, wherever it is, to come and spread knowledge about
	these higher things to the people on this planet.
	So he was some sort of angel?
	Convenient word, or would you use another?
	Yeah, a compassionate being, Buddha, Christ.
	I mean, this is a very common theme in practically every culture and religion.
	Yes, this compassionate being, angel, whatever.
	Then what are all his teachings?
	How do you deal with those?
	How do you deal with the Bible?
	I'm going to ask you before my audience does.
	Oh, well I think in the Bible you definitely have the picture of this cosmic hierarchy.
	You have the supreme being on top.
	You have various categories of angels.
	You look in the first parts of Genesis, you have apparently some descriptions of some extraterrestrial contacts with Earth and even some of these beings mating with terrestrial humans.
	You know, seeing the daughters of the Earth as being fair and having them as wives.
	Okay, so you find support for all of this, then, in the Bible?
	Oh, and not just in the Bible.
	As I said, if you look through the Jewish Kabbalah, you'll also find this cosmic hierarchy.
	You'll find it in the ancient Sanskrit writings of India.
	If you look at the Egyptians, the Aztecs, the American Indians, the Australian Aboriginals, you will see basically the same pattern.
	And I think this is very significant that all of these people in different times, in
	different places, talking about the same pattern, the same cosmic hierarchy, what that tends
	to suggest is that they are contemplating something real.
	Now, they may be contemplating it from slightly different perspectives, but they're looking at the same thing, it would appear to me.
	Well, how could they have gotten it that wrong?
	I mean, Jesus viewed himself the Son of God.
	Oh, the Son of God, that's fine.
	That's fine?
	Yeah.
	I think he would have said, We're all sons of God.
	Of course, he's a very special one, being given so much power to teach about these things on this planet.
	Well, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would sort of take you on.
	I mean, an awful lot of what's in the Bible is very specific and would not at all jive with Michael Cremo, right?
	Oh, I'm sure there are those who will want to take a view like that.
	I'm sure there are others who will be able to appreciate the similarities between what you might find in one book of knowledge and another.
	Alright, Michael, do species come and go?
	In other words, do we have species that, in effect, exit the Earth as it is said dinosaurs have done?
	I think you argue with that, don't you?
	From what it appears to us, if you look at various sources, be it physical evidence, writings of different ancient civilizations, it would appear that No species really goes extinct.
	It will always be existing somewhere.
	Somewhere, either on this planet or perhaps in some other part of the universe.
	You did mention the dinosaurs.
	And it's quite interesting that although the standard scientific doctrine is that these creatures are extinct, there are people, even today, some very competent researchers, who say they appear to still be living in some parts of this planet.
	Where?
	For example, there have been sightings of dinosaur-like creatures in Africa.
	In the Congo region, there's quite a huge body of literature about that.
	Not very well known, but you have, for example, some French researchers have published a very massive book about these sightings.
	Alright, we're going to hold it right there, Michael.
	We're at the top of the hour, and we will soon get the telephone lines open.
	And, uh, I feel as though I ought to have a special dinosaur line, just in case anybody's got a line on a dinosaur out there.
	Fascinating.
	Uh, he suggests, indeed, they have been spotted possibly in the Congo.
	I had no idea.
	All right, we're gonna break, uh, here at the top of the hour, and we'll be back.
	Michael Cremo is my guest.
	His book, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	And, indeed, it is very different than I have imagined.
	We'll be back with more.
	You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
	This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
	Please do not call.
	From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
	Call Art Now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	I am here, and a very good evening to you all.
	This is Dreamland.
	My guest is Michael Cremo.
	Michael has an intriguing theory.
	Actually, he feels it's a lot more than theory, and we're going to get to some of the evidence here shortly.
	He's written a book called, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	And apparently, quite a hit it is.
	Some of the evidence coming up.
	And Michael, just before we get into the evidence aspect, I've got a couple of faxes here that I would like to ask you about.
	One is from a great faxer named Doc Barry down in Phoenix.
	And the question is, how does the immortal soul theory fit into the author's cosmic hierarchy theory?
	It fits in very well.
	That would be a big part of it, and I would say the physical evidence for that would come in the form of the medical reports, well-documented medical reports, of the outer body experiences, the near-death experiences, and also transmigration or reincarnation memories, such as those studied by Dr. Ian Stevenson, who is a psychiatrist at the University of Virginia.
	He's studied thousands of cases of small children who report past life memories.
	Now, children, they can't go to the library and make up a very elaborate past life story.
	These children tend to report very ordinary past lives, and he's been able to document the previous I do find children to be very credible in these areas.
	Alright, I hate to rush you, but we've got to do that.
	Here's another one.
	Is it possible that life has been brought to this planet numerous times, and like plants, we keep dying as a species?
	Our sponsors, the E.T.' I guess may not want to waste a perfectly good planet and
	have continued to recycle this place for millions of years Good theory
	Well the part I don't know that I could agree with every detail of it, but the part the first part that was
	uh... i don't know that i could agree with every detail of it but the part
	uh... the first part uh... that was mentioned that
	mentioned We've got multiple origins on this planet. We didn't come
	uh... we've got multiple origins on this planet uh... we didn't come just once
	just once it's an ongoing process That is something that I fully agree with and I think the
	it's an ongoing process i've got it something that i uh... fully aware that i think the evidence supports it
	evidence supports it especially if you look now the part
	especially if you look
	uh...
	down through history at what different people have uh...
	reported you get a lot of uh... evidence of extraterrestrial contacts different defense
	uh... human species on this planet
	And I think that's very well supported by the evidence.
	And that's a good place to break into evidence.
	If I were to ask you, Michael, what is your best evidence?
	What is the evidence that supports your theory that man, along with other creatures on the planet, have been around so long?
	Give me the best stuff you've got.
	What would you give me?
	Right.
	And I think we really have to pay this attention to the evidence because if we're going to an alternative explanation to the evolutionary doctrine that is now so dominant, we have to show that that theory is not supported by the evidence.
	Otherwise, why even talk about these alternatives?
	So, let's look at some discoveries that were made by some California gold miners back in the gold rush days.
	They were digging tunnels thousands of feet into solid rock in the sides of mountains.
	Now, I've talked with geologists in the state of California and they say that this rock in these mountains is at least 10 million and as much as 50 million years old.
	Now, inside these tunnels, these miners were finding human skeletons, they were finding obsidian spear points, they were finding all kinds of human artifacts.
	These were collected together by a man named J.D.
	Whitney, who was the state geologist of California at the time, and he wrote a massive book about them, which was published by Harvard University.
	In 1883.
	Now, my question is, why don't we hear about these anymore?
	Why aren't they on display in the museums?
	That's right.
	They were suppressed.
	The evidence was suppressed.
	There was a very powerful anthropologist named William H. Holmes in Washington, D.C.
	at the Smithsonian Institution, that institution that's still there on the Mall in Washington, D.C.
	And I might add, Michael, in the business, in my view, of distorting, or trying to, even recent history with respect to World War II.
	But that's another story.
	Oh, right.
	But you can see there's a whole history of how that distortion goes on.
	This is what Dr. Holmes of the Smithsonian Institution said to Whitney out in California.
	The exact quote's in our book, but this is a good rendition of it.
	He said, if Dr. Whitney had understood the theory of human evolution as we understand it today, then he would have hesitated to announce his conclusions, despite the imposing array of facts with which he was confronted.
	In other words, if the facts don't go along with the theory, then the facts have to go, and Dr. Whitney has to go, and the artifacts have to go.
	So there you had some very good evidence showing you had human beings up to 50 million years ago in California.
	Going back a little bit further, we had in 1862 a scientific magazine called The Geologist
	that told how in Macoupin County, Illinois, which is right here in the United States,
	90 feet deep below the ground in a layer of coal that was below two solid feet of slate
	rock an entire human skeleton, no different than ours, in other words, not an eight-man
	skeleton, but a skeleton no different than ours was found in the coal there.
	It just seems impossible that this could have happened, and I realize where you're going with respect to, then, the age of that being, obviously, but it seems impossible to me that the traditional scientific community could either suppress, ignore, or lie about evidence of this magnitude.
	Well, it does happen, and it's still happening today.
	We shouldn't be so surprised that evidence can be kept secret.
	For example, we find that governments, they can keep secrets.
	Well, you know, I know that's true, Michael.
	The origins of the human being, it's such an important question that you would think that even scientists with egos regarding previously established theories would not be blind to really significant evidence like a skeleton in coal.
	No, no, no.
	How are they able to just dismiss, and how can they call themselves scientists if they do?
	Well, I just gave you the example of William Holmes of the Smithsonian Institution just saying, just bluntly dismissing a huge body of evidence, human skeletons, tools, all kinds of things, you know, from California, just because It went against the idea of human evolution.
	Well, he's but one scientist.
	A lot of power, a lot of prestige, a lot of money is involved in all this.
	There are some of the big foundations like the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Institution are involved in this.
	Governments are involved in this.
	We see that basically this idea of Darwinian evolution is being enforced on the American education system by the full power of the United States government through its judicial system.
	In other words, the scientists have got the United States government suppressing this evidence and preventing it from being taught in the schools.
	So, to me, it's not at all surprising how a very powerful, elite group of people making use of every resource that they have can keep this evidence suppressed.
	And I could give you some very good examples of that that are going on even today.
	But still, it's incredible, Michael.
	Of course it is!
	That's why I wrote this book.
	It is incredible.
	It is shocking, and I think people need to know about it.
	But it is saying that all of these organizations and all of these scientists, instead of being devoted to a search for the truth, your charging are devoted to maintaining a cover-up.
	That's right.
	And this is going on in many areas.
	I can tell you a person that I know personally who was a victim of this kind of treatment.
	It's Virginia Steen McIntyre, a geologist who was working with the U.S.
	Geological Survey.
	Now, in the 1960s, some anthropologists went down to Mexico at a place called Huayapalaco, which is near Puebla, which is near Mexico City, and they uncovered some human artifacts there, some advanced stone tools.
	When the anthropologists dig up something like that, they want to know how old it is.
	So what they do is they call in a geologist.
	Right.
	Because the geologist can tell them how old the strata of the Earth were in which those things were found.
	So they called in Virginia Steen-McIntyre of the U.S.
	Geological Survey.
	Yes.
	And she and three of her colleagues You dated that site with four different methods and each of the methods gave an age of about 250,000 years which is unusual for two reasons.
	First of all, no human being should have been in existence 250,000 years ago, anatomically modern human beings like us.
	And what to speak of in Mexico, because the standard idea is that human beings didn't
	come over to the new world until about 20,000 years ago, when the Indians supposedly came
	over the Bering land bridge up in Alaska from Siberia and wandered down into America.
	So to have this evidence at 250,000 years in Mexico was shocking.
	Now the anthropologists, they were shocked because it would ruin their careers.
	They were expecting, oh, well, we'll get a date.
	So Virginia Steen MacIntyre, she decided she was going to stick with her dates.
	Now here's what happened to her.
	She couldn't get them published.
	She couldn't get the reports published.
	She was labeled a maverick and a publicity seeker in her profession.
	She lost the teaching position that she held at an American university.
	And finally, she was forced out of her job and she couldn't work as an archaeologist, I mean a geologist again.
	So what did she do?
	Change at all?
	What did she do?
	No, she still maintains.
	She is still sticking by her guns.
	She and I were both actually on a show called Sightings a couple of weeks ago.
	I know Sightings, of course.
	Right.
	And she's trying to get that message out.
	Now, this is one example of some very direct suppression that's going on.
	In another field, this Dr. John Mack, who's a psychiatrist at Harvard... He's been a guest on the program.
	Right.
	Now, here's what's happened to him recently.
	We've received some communication from his attorney.
	who have told us of course you know what he does he has investigated reports
	of alien abduction of people under hypnosis
	and harvard university has convened a secret
	academic committee uh... and the report that this committee is delivering
	has said that he is
	uh... acting irresponsibly as a scholar Really?
	And his attorneys say that this report will be used to attempt to take away his tenure and perhaps even to institute a malpractice suit against him.
	Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that.
	No, this is... It's like the Galileo case.
	All over again.
	So when we hear that science is an objective process... I take it that there is some procedure in place to give Professor Mack an opportunity to defend the legitimacy of his views and research, correct?
	That's correct.
	And what procedure is that?
	He has until, according to the communications I saw, he has until March 15th to offer a defense.
	And I think researchers around the country who are sympathetic to him are being asked to write to the administration of Harvard University in support of him.
	I'm so sorry to hear about that.
	I'm so sorry to hear about that.
	I thought we had taken a step forward and this sounds like one, maybe two to the rear.
	Yeah, Art.
	And this is, these are the things that convinced me that it isn't so hard to see why evidence that goes against the standard use can be suppressed in other areas as well.
	It's a pretty good example, all right, and I'm sorry to hear it.
	All right, I would like to begin taking some calls, if you would.
	Boy, that's really shocking news about Professor Mack.
	When did you get that news?
	This arrived in the mail a couple of months ago, here at our offices, and it was directed to my co-author, Richard Thompson, who is the author of a book called Alien Identities, which deals with UFO questions.
	Alright, let us begin taking a few calls, Michael.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Good evening.
	Good evening, Art Bell.
	This is Ed.
	I'm in Royal Oxford, California.
	Hello, Ed.
	A very good evening to you.
	I've been very interested.
	I've been following your program off of other stations and it got shifted off of KSFO.
	I picked you up in my car.
	I don't have a phone there.
	I can't get it in my house, but that's where I'm calling you from.
	I understand.
	My friend, I have something that perhaps you'll laugh, but about a year ago I came across a series of books Beginning in 1982, published by a credentialed person in Southern California who is a transcriber.
	The astounding thing about it is, and I'm shaken to even tell you this because I don't expect it to be believed, But there has been in print now since 1991 something called the New Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
	It is 760 odd pages in quotes.
	It's not a channel job.
	All right, can you give us a brief idea of what it is about?
	Yes, sir.
	It starts with the premise that the spiritual progression in what is known as the multiverse, universe, planet, earth, everywhere, is now such that a direct revelation That can be put into plain English Instead of the language of correspondences that is used in the Bible Because at that time humanity and much else was in its infancy and had to be told like don't touch this radiator It was or else and no explanations The astounding thing is that it sets forth in quotes as I say gotta hurry here.
	Yeah, it sets forth a whole history of Of the human race, of humanity in general, its place, the extent and degree to which our guesswork has been nothing much more than that, and it confirms that we are a spliced job and probably 9th or 10th or 15th one down the line.
	All right, are you aware of this, Michael?
	I've heard similar things.
	I'm not aware of that exact book, no.
	All right, all I can say is you should share the source with us.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Uh, so please, uh, feel free to share the source.
	Facts or write to me.
	Let me know how to get hold of it, and we will do some investigation.
	That's all I can promise.
	Michael Cremo is my guest.
	The Hidden History of the Human Race, his book.
	We'll be right back.
	Now, Michael Cremo.
	Michael, here is yet another facts.
	Your guest's theory on the origin of man is nearly identical to the descriptions by Randolph Winters in his book on the Pleiadians.
	That's from Richard in... I'm sorry, from John in Richland, Washington.
	Now, Michael, does that sound familiar to you?
	Do you know about Randolph Winters?
	I'm not familiar with all the details of his idea.
	Um, what I will say is, uh, I think one of the characteristics of what I'm presenting is that it is not unique.
	You know, as I've said, it's something that you will find mentioned in channeled communications.
	You will find it mentioned in this idea of the cosmic hierarchy in, as I've said, practically every cultural and spiritual tradition that's ever existed.
	How much credibility do you give to channelers, Michael?
	Well, it all depends.
	Practically every communication that we have from higher dimensions you could say is in one way or other channeled.
	Now you may call it divine inspiration or the Holy Spirit speaking through someone,
	but I think channeling as a phenomenon, as a way of getting information from the higher
	levels in the hierarchy is a very well established fact.
	Now what may be coming through those channels I think we have to judge because sometimes
	you may be getting disinformation.
	I think this happens in many of the UFO communication...
	It happens in all related fields I'm sure.
	Right.
	Michael, I'm sure.
	Uh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Good evening.
	Good evening, um, I have just, I have two quick questions for you.
	Alright, where, where are you?
	Uh, Tacoma, Washington.
	Tacoma, alright, go ahead.
	Okay, um, earlier, uh, your guest said that, uh, We've been, as humans, existing on the Earth with all the creatures, including Bigfoot.
	Yes.
	And I was wondering what he thinks of some of the stories that I've heard about Bigfoot in connection with UFO sightings.
	All right.
	Yes, well, I was alluding to that before.
	I was saying that we can't consider these creatures simply to be Just sort of like big apes.
	They seem to have, some of them, have powers that go beyond what normal animals would be expected to have.
	And there is indeed quite a literature on reports of these creatures in connection... Well, as long as we're on the subject, Michael, you keep taunting me with that powers.
	They seem to have powers.
	For example?
	Well, it's very unusual that none of them have ever been captured.
	So you mean powers of eluding hunters?
	Right.
	Powers for eluding hunters.
	Also, having been sighted in connection with these UFO objects.
	Also, if you look at traditional accounts from the American Indians of these creatures, they tend to manifest some mystic powers, as do many of the other animals that may be mentioned.
	Okay, well, with respect to the UFOs, I guess it would make sense, Michael, that they would keep track of one species, or Bigfoot, Along with human beings who have been abducted and animals that we consistently hear are abducted for one reason or another.
	So if your theory, if one accepts your theory, then it would make sense that UFOs would monitor these creatures as much as they might monitor us, only there would be far fewer of them.
	Uh, so I guess all that would, uh, make some sense.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Hello, uh, this is Jack from Charleston, South Carolina.
	Hi, Jack.
	Hi, um, I wanted to ask your, uh, guest if he knows the air date of the sightings program that he said he, uh, uh, taped a couple of weeks ago.
	That's a good question.
	Oh, that show, I'm sorry, that show has already aired.
	It aired this past winter.
	I forget what day it aired.
	It's already been on the air.
	I will mention, however, that I'm now working as a consultant for one of the major networks for a television special.
	I can't reveal too much about it, but it'll be coming out in the fall.
	Also, I want to ask quickly, I went to tell someone in my house what you were already talking about, and it came back, you mentioned something not too bad about Professor Mack.
	Is that right, John Mack, the one who did Alien Investigation?
	What were you saying about him?
	Well, okay.
	I hate to have to go over it again, but basically, Harvard is challenging Dr. Mack's credentials and area of investigation.
	And there's going to be some hearings or something?
	Is that about right, Michael?
	That's right, yeah.
	The charge is that he's been acting irresponsibly as a scholar and suggesting that there may be actual Some actual truth behind these stories of alien abduction.
	So, there you are.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Good evening.
	Hello, this is Fritz von Phoenix.
	Yes, Fritz.
	Well, over and over again, there's one myth with the path of mankind for so many years, and I'm sure every one of you listening, the radio audience here, It's a way of it that the Yeti or the Abominable Snowman, Sasquatch or the Bigfoot definitely have the connection with UFO.
	In my opinion, they're all under the umbrella of the extraterrestrial presence and they were brought here to our planet for whatever reasons.
	Michael, can you accept that?
	Well, that is Michael's theory of how we got here.
	Well, I would say that we all have an extraterrestrial origin if we trace it back far enough.
	All of the creatures on this planet.
	And it may be quite a complex series of events that led to all of the creatures on this planet being placed here.
	I wonder why the extraterrestrials decided to put so many varieties of human beings here.
	Any thoughts on that?
	Well, it would appear that, now, from ancient Sanskrit writings, we learned that there are 400,000 human species scattered throughout the universe.
	So we may begin, and it would appear also from the UFO literature that there are many types of aliens.
	There are the standard gray, there's the so-called Nordic type, It would appear there you also have a variety.
	So, it doesn't surprise me that we may have been visited many times and that the human history may be much more complex than we've been led to imagine.
	Michael, when you stick with simple archaeology, when you simply challenge traditional scientific theories regarding how long we've been here and how we developed, It seems to me you're on one ground.
	That's right.
	When you jump to an explanation that involves extraterrestrials, then you put yourself in exactly the same position as Dr. Mack is now in, and it makes it much easier for the traditional scientific community to throw fertilizer on your whole theory.
	Yes?
	Well, they'll also try to object to even the archaeological evidence, as you were suggesting earlier.
	Well, I know, but they hardly even have to bother with that, Michael, given what you've given them.
	I mean, it makes it easy for them, doesn't it?
	There's another whole area of knowledge suppression going on, and that has to do with anything connected with the paranormal or the extraterrestrial or supernatural.
	That's true.
	Whatever you want to call it.
	Well, that's what I'm saying.
	And I think now what I want to do is directly confront the scientific community on those points, and I don't think I'm alone in this.
	We're seeing, for example, You have in existence today an international society for the study of subtle energy medicine, which is composed of about 1,200 medical professionals and biologists that are looking at subtle healing and subtle energy.
	In other words, if we're going to have an alternative explanation of human origins, the first thing that we have to show is that there is more to the human essence than can be explained by chemistry, biochemistry.
	Indeed, it's a very good point.
	point. Yes, sure. And you have the Institute for Noetic Sciences, you have many individual
	scholars who are courageously investigating these things.
	So I see that there is, and it may sound like a cliché to say it, but there is a
	paradigm shift underway and I think it's making a lot of progress.
	Well, I thought so too, but hearing about Professor Mack makes me wonder.
	And maybe you're underestimating the resistance that the traditional scientific community will put up.
	It will be stiff, it will be strong, and it will virtually ridicule Well, these are the standard tactics.
	The first line of defense is to try to ignore something.
	When you can no longer try to ignore something, then you ridicule it.
	And then if that doesn't work, then you get the heavier kinds of suppression.
	I think we have to look and see what happened in the case of communism, for example.
	Right up to the last minute, they were in charge.
	They were still in charge.
	There was so much going on underground and around the sides that eventually the system collapsed even though right up
	to the last minute You're saying
	traditional science Traditional science will collapse the way communism did all
	at once nearly with no warning to boom the fences come down Is that right because there are so many people who do not
	believe in it anymore?
	There are so many cracks in the consensus. There are so many independent scholars investigating these things and
	counter And as I said so many
	organized attempts by scholars Who are a little bit more independent to investigate these?
	So I think the combined weight of that will eventually bring about a collapse of the current
	paradigm, current consensus.
	All right.
	It's only been around for about two or three hundred years.
	I understand. All right, Michael, let's let's stay with the phones here.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Hello. Hello.
	Where where are you, sir?
	Sarasota, Florida.
	Excellent.
	Go ahead. You're on the air.
	OK.
	What comes to my mind, I admit, I missed about a half hour of your show here, but I'm thinking about
	a photograph I saw that claims to be a sandal print with a crest trilobite underneath,
	which predates most life forms on this planet by several million years.
	I love you.
	Yes, sir.
	What you're talking about is the Meister footprint discovered by Robert Meister in Utah.
	and uh... my co-author richard thompson went and visited mister mysterio
	uh... he's no longer living but at the time he was living and we obtained a photograph our own photographs of those
	footprints now that footprints were discovered in cambrian shale
	in utah and uh... that rock in which those uh... uh... sandal
	prints were found is roughly uh... six hundred million years old
	and as as uh... i've pointed out several times according to what
	scientific elite will tell us today human beings like us have only been around on this planet about a hundred
	thousand years as a matter of fact six hundred thousand six hundred
	million years ago they they would say there was no life
	something was wearing shoes on the on the on the surface of the earth at all
	maybe there was a good film marine creatures just like the new yorker
	Michael, what about... Those prints are there, and we did a computer analysis of them.
	We found that the shape of that print did not deviate in the slightest from a modern human shoe print.
	Michael, what about the possibility that that print was somehow, somehow put in that older rock in more recent times?
	How do you discount that possibility?
	Well, from the testimony of the person who discovered it, who said he was a rock Yes.
	collector and he was going through an area with one of those little geologist picks and
	he was breaking open, he was looking for trilobites, which are those little fossils of these little
	Sure.
	And he was breaking open solid pieces of this rock.
	So it couldn't, it was not something that somebody could have carved into a rock like this.
	Okay, I've got you.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi, where are you calling from please?
	This is Dave in Wichita.
	Hello Dave.
	I wondered if Michael had heard about the age of the Sphinx being at least 10,000 years old and that Some evidence in the Pernas, the ancient Indian writings, say that it's about 100,000 years old.
	All right, these Sphinx.
	Dave, I'm very familiar with that.
	You're talking about the work of Dr. Robert Shock, who is a geologist at Boston University.
	he analyzed the sphinx, the weathering of the sphinx, and determined that it was far
	older, many thousands of years older than current Egyptologists would say.
	I'll tell you about how this knowledge suppression factor operates.
	He wants to go back and conduct further studies, but the Antiquities Department, the government
	of Egypt, the department in charge of those monuments, will not let him go back right
	at the present moment.
	Now, the Egyptians themselves, if you look at the ancient Egyptian writings themselves, they have a list of pharaohs going back 400,000 years.
	The Babylonians also have king lists going back 400,000 years.
	Uh, so, this is, most people are not aware of these facts.
	Uh, you read in your standard textbooks about Egyptian history, it only goes back a few thousand years.
	Huh.
	Alright, uh, first time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Good evening.
	Hello?
	Are we on the air right now?
	Yes, we're on the air, sir.
	Yeah, I didn't mean to get on the air.
	I just wanted to find out... Alright, if you don't want to be on the air, I'm going to have to go to the next call.
	I just wanted to find out what time Dreamland is on.
	It's on right now.
	Yeah, but through the week.
	Dreamland is not on during the week.
	Only weekends?
	Yes, that's correct.
	What time?
	7 to 10.
	Saturday and Sunday.
	7 to 10 Pacific Time.
	Sunday.
	Not on Saturday?
	No.
	Okay.
	All right, thank you.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Yeah, good evening, Art.
	My name's Ed from Albuquerque.
	Yes, sir.
	I have a question to ask him.
	He's familiar with Scientific American Publications, isn't he?
	Yes, I am.
	About four years ago, there was an article that was written about the genetic study that was trying to correlate orangutans back to humans.
	And the study concluded that this wasn't feasible, but the genetic study put man all the way back 150,000 to 200,000 years ago, and the origin took place somewhere near Egypt.
	And this was a very, very precise scientific study, and when they were ready to release their findings, they found out that Japan had done exactly, almost identical, similar study.
	And the data, you know, was very, very comparable to one or the other.
	And it stated that they didn't know how man started and they were kind of tongue-in-cheek by calling it Eve as a starting of origin of man 150 to 200,000 years ago.
	And this was done in a very, very scientific genetic basis.
	Could you answer on that, please?
	Well, it's very interesting.
	What happened was that a couple of years later, that African Eve hypothesis was shot down because other scientists came and proved that the statistics that were used in those reports just did not work.
	All right, on that note, we've got a break right here.
	It is the top of the hour.
	Relax for a few moments, Michael.
	And welcome back to you.
	Michael Cremo is my guest.
	His book, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	And there's a lot.
	We'll be back.
	This is CBC. I talk.
	I talk.
	The End This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
	Please do not call.
	From the Kingdom of Nigh, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
	Call Art Now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	1-800-618-TALK. First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	727-1295.
	702-727-1222. Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295. 727-1295. In the 702 area
	code. Now again, here's Art Now again, here's Art Bell.
	The listeners to my regular weeknight program no doubt will appreciate this.
	Art, after listening to you and your guest and giving our warlike disposition not to get along with each other, Could Earth be your Dahmer Island?
	Fred Kogo.
	Yeah, sure it could, Fred.
	Dahmer Island is sort of an invention of mine, a place where criminals would be taken.
	Obviously, his theory that all of Earth is some sort of Dahmer Island, that we are prisoners from some other place or time.
	One never knows.
	Let me begin this hour.
	We're going to take care of our commercial content here.
	Now, Art, could you ask your guest if he's heard about the rock that was found in Death Valley by some rock hounds that when cut in half contained a ceramic diode.
	The rock was dated somewhere around 500,000 years ago.
	Michael?
	I've heard about it.
	I haven't been able to get any very detailed information about that.
	The clear implication of that would be either alien technology or technology once before developed by man, long forgotten, and now, of course, full circle.
	But it would suggest one of those two.
	Well, I think you're absolutely right there.
	The whole idea of cyclical time, things coming and going, is...
	An idea that I'm very much in favor of.
	Actually, if you look at Aristotle, back in the time of the Greeks, he had the same idea.
	He said, the great inventions of human civilization have been made time and time and time again in the course of cyclical time.
	Yes, you don't find that to be in competition with your hypothesis?
	Not at all.
	As a matter of fact, it tends to match up with it.
	What we find if you look at the entire history of archaeology and anthropology is that you've got a very bewildering mixture of advanced artifacts and simple things, human bones and ape-man-like bones all mixed up going back hundreds of millions of years.
	This is really what you would predict if there were a kind of cyclical pattern to this whole process that we're involved in.
	All right.
	Back to the phones.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Yes, sir.
	From the Tri-Cities.
	Tri-Cities, Washington.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	There's an anagram for some of these different... for these artifacts.
	Artifacts out of time or something like that.
	I've read several books about this.
	Oh, the gold chain found with two lumps of coal at either end.
	And like an art school in France where you could see where somebody had corrected, made correction lines and stuff.
	And they were normal people wearing trousers and shirts with buttons and stuff like that.
	I was wondering if he had heard about any of this.
	Yes, I have.
	Of course, that anagram you're talking about is OOP Arts, Out of Place Artifacts.
	And the Gold Chain, I've got a case of that in the book, The Hidden History of the Human Race.
	Michael, how do they generally dismiss what you're calling OOPs Art?
	How do they dismiss it?
	How do they dismiss Out of Place Artifacts?
	Yeah, that's right.
	I mean, do they call it fantasy, people at the time, or what?
	Well, in many cases, this has been so effectively suppressed that they hardly even know about it.
	Usually, they will try to say it's a hoax, it's intrusive somehow or other, it's slipped down from some higher level down to some lower level, which is why in our book Hidden History of the Human Race, we tend to concentrate on cases that are very well documented and where all these possible counter-explanations are dealt with.
	Alright, look, it really sounds like it's worth a read, and you haven't done it, so I will ask you to do it.
	Plug your book.
	How do people get a copy of the Hidden History of the Human Race?
	Well, it's available in bookstores, and if it's not in a bookstore, we have an 800 number.
	Let me give the number again.
	six one i think you can call during business hours during the week
	and order the book that way let me give the number again one eight hundred how
	much is the book uh... twenty two ninety five
	And it's a hardback.
	Very nice book.
	I've got it here.
	1-800-443-3361.
	And increasingly, it sounds like it's well worth the read.
	I'd like to say I've read it already, Michael, but I will now dive into it.
	You've intrigued me.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Hi there.
	Mr. Cremo, you mentioned technology, or we were talking about technology just a couple minutes ago.
	Do you have any detailed information or any kind of information about what different kinds of technologies were used by man in his more advanced stage as he was planted on the planet?
	From the reports that you get from many ancient writings, It would appear they had some very advanced technology.
	From the ancient Sanskrit writings of India you find what are called Vimanas or spaceships of various kinds.
	We've actually got reports from coal mines of polished stone walls being found in coal mines two miles
	deep underneath the ground.
	So from varieties of sources, whether we're talking about archaeology or ancient writings,
	it would appear that civilizations in the very, very distant past may have had technologies
	superior to those of today even.
	Okay, and those technologies, would you know if they were more tied in with the natural
	forces of the earth rather than an artificial type of technology?
	All right.
	That's good.
	In other words, were they in tune with the planet in some way that we were not or presently are not, Michael?
	Yes, even if you go back a little bit in recorded history to the times of the Greeks and the Romans and personalities like that, you'll find that many times they got their technologies from higher beings.
	They didn't build factories on this planet to build them, but they would communicate with higher beings and receive technologies, more advanced technologies from them.
	So that kind of technology exchange has a long history on our planet and may still be going on today for all we know.
	A faxed question for you, Michael.
	Do you think there's any indication that these extraterrestrial intelligences have guided or interfered with human history?
	Are you familiar with a book called The Gods of Eden by William Bramley?
	That is a very common hypothesis.
	I think you'll also find it in Zachariah Stitchin and others.
	Yes.
	Where I might disagree with some of these accounts is that been going on much longer than they would suppose. In many
	cases they tend to accept the standard idea of human evolution as it's printed in the
	textbooks and then say at some fairly recent point in time you have some alien
	intervention that resulted in our human species as we know it today with our advanced civilization.
	Could you give me a couple of examples of where you think they may have interfered in
	effect with human history?
	Oh, if you look at...
	The whole history of the human race, you'll see many accounts of divine interventions.
	Practically, the origin of every religion on this planet is attributed to some kind of intervention from some extraterrestrial source.
	Alright, well then, here's a hell of a question for you, Michael.
	If everything went to hell in a handbasket in Russia, Which, frankly, is very unstable right now with, as you know, at least 30,000 deliverable nuclear weapons.
	And somebody over there went out of their mind and did the unthinkable and launched their weapons against us.
	If there would ever be a moment for intervention, that would be it.
	Would you think the launch and the war would be successful, in other words, in ending the human race, or would there be intervention?
	It's a very good question, Art, and I think this is something that comes up all of the time.
	I think there's something pretty much of a cosmic paranoia when we're confronted either with the type of event that you've described or the fears of what different Kinds of alien beings might do.
	Michael, any... I would say this is where the cosmic hierarchy comes into being.
	Right, well let me add to it, Michael.
	Any species-threatening event.
	Let's say that Ebola Zaire became airborne and it threatened to end the species.
	Same question.
	Would there be intervention prior to a species-threatening event?
	In the case of any particular event, I couldn't say, but in general, in the ultimate sense, the forces in the cosmic hierarchy are at the top, good.
	They're well-wishers to us.
	In the end, in the final analysis, the powers of good that are watching over this whole hierarchy will prevail.
	And I think even now they are limiting the influence of elements in the hierarchy that may not be so benign.
	And I think this is something we can all take comfort in.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art Bell, this is Roy from Everett, Washington.
	Yes, sir.
	I'd like to ask Michael if he's seen any evidence of Atlanteans in his work.
	Ah, Atlantis!
	Yes, Michael, your view on that?
	Yes, of course, Atlantis is familiar to us from the ancient Greek writings as a sunken landmass that was previously inhabited by a race of People who had some advanced civilization.
	In the ancient Sanskrit writings with which I'm familiar, there are also descriptions of sunken landmasses that were previously inhabited.
	I think there's been some very good underwater archaeology done in the area of Bimini and the Bahamas.
	Where there do appear to be stone structures found deep in the ocean.
	So yes, I would be prepared to find evidence for sunken land masses that were once inhabited.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, your turn with Michael Cremo.
	Good evening.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
	Oshkosh.
	All right.
	Welcome to the show.
	My name's Renzo.
	Yes.
	How are you doing?
	Fine.
	Well, Michael, I was wondering, well, actually, I think that people feel that Bigfoot is connected to aliens because he's so hard to find.
	I was talking about that a little bit earlier.
	That's exactly what I suggested.
	Yes, and well, I would give you my theory that if the UFOs or the extraterrestrials, Michael, are keeping track of all of us, they've got plenty of opportunity to do that with human beings, with cattle, with many of the things we hear about being abducted, but perhaps few opportunities to interface with Bigfoot because there are I think arguably very few Bigfoot creatures, so obviously anything connected to a UFO and a Bigfoot would be not a great surprise.
	There would be very few of them they could monitor, wouldn't that be true?
	They appear to be rare, although you do get sightings around the world in varieties of locations, and even on the east coast of the United States.
	Well, I'm sure you do, but I mean, how many have you seen?
	I have not seen any myself.
	Same deal with me.
	So, at least they've got to be fairly rare.
	Right.
	Alright, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Yeah, I'm calling from COGO.
	Yes, sir.
	And, okay, Mr. Cremo.
	I want to understand, you're saying that extraterrestrials have been coming down and affecting the evolution of man or actually creating man?
	Very, very good question.
	As I was suggesting towards the beginning of the show, I think We are part of a cosmic hierarchy of beings, originally
	spiritual, and we have come down from an original position, original higher dimensional
	spiritual position, and we have been placed in a position in this hierarchy.
	The way that we have gotten here is that we have been given bodies by beings higher up
	in the hierarchy by a process of reproduction.
	In other words, these beings higher up in the hierarchy, from descriptions you find
	in various ancient writings and also from evidence that we can see today, have bodies
	made of more subtle elements than we do.
	Alright, I'm trying to listen.
	So by a process of reproduction.
	Yes, I'm trying to listen very carefully to what you're saying here, Michael.
	Are you saying that we were created by those beings?
	In most senses.
	Well, our bodies have been, in other words, there's a process of reproduction that's going on.
	If I could say one thing.
	See, the problem I have, okay, we have vestigial parts in our body like a tailbone, an appendix.
	I mean, useless stuff to us is homo sapiens.
	And another thing, too, If man's been around this long, why isn't there a fossil record of actual bodies back, you know, 500 million years ago?
	Well, but there is, according to Michael Cremo, right, Michael?
	Oh, that's right.
	You know, we were talking about that human skeleton found in the coal mine in Macoupin County, Illinois.
	We got in touch with the Illinois Geological Survey, and we asked them, well, how old is the coal in that mine?
	It's 300 million years old.
	We do have skeletons going back that far.
	As far as these similarities with other creatures, that might just be a good design process where
	you start with a template and then you simply modify it to get different creatures rather
	than building each one up from scratch.
	I think that's a very common thing in engineering and software, computer software.
	You don't try to invent the wheel every time but you start with some template or model
	And, uh, marry it slightly.
	So you might expect to find, uh, if, if, uh, you do have, uh, say, as the ancient Sanskrit writings say, 400,000 types of human beings.
	So we, we would simply then, in essence, be the Rembrandt, uh, work of some, um, greater intelligence, some, uh, extraterrestrial intelligence.
	We would have been the final grand work to date of that intelligence, correct?
	That may be giving too much credit.
	I'd say the higher... Okay, Michael, I'm sorry.
	We're at a break point.
	We'll be right back.
	This is CBC.
	This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
	Please do not call.
	This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
	Please do not call.
	Well, on May 13th, we're going on vacation.
	Huh.
	Going to Hong Kong, uh, China.
	Into, uh, Red China, if you'd like to come along on that side trip.
	Then, uh, Bangkok.
	And then back home.
	The whole thing will last about eight days.
	Uh, unfortunately, it is now on a space-available basis.
	Which means you call the number I give you.
	If there is any space left, or if they can find any, or if they have a cancellation, they will get you in.
	It's the name of the game.
	It's getting late.
	So, if you'd like to come along, I'll be there.
	My wife will be there.
	Bob and Sue Crane will be there.
	A lot of people are going to be there.
	If you'd like to come along, call 1-800-633-2732.
	That number is good at, oh, I think about 8 o'clock in the morning Pacific Coast time.
	is good at, oh I think about 8 o'clock in the morning Pacific Coast time. 1-800-633-2732.
	1-800-633-2732.
	My guest is Michael Cremo. His book and his theory, The Hidden History of the Human Race,
	actually, he represents it really as more than that, because he says he has evidence.
	Evidence of a man being far, far older than anybody else can guess.
	And we'll get millions of years, or even hundreds of millions of years, or even billions of years, and we'll get back to him in just a moment.
	The human race has been around for over several million or billion years.
	Would it be out of the realm of possibility that we achieved advanced space travel before?
	And if so, why would we not leave the planet in time of disaster and later return to rebuild and bring that same technology?
	Therefore, we should be more advanced.
	Roger.
	Uh, in Sparks, Nevada.
	He's saying, uh, why haven't we been back?
	In other words, if there was an earlier civilization that achieved space travel and went somewhere else, why have we not been back?
	Well, I'd say to Roger this has to do with the whole idea of cyclical time.
	As a matter of fact, from what we can see, and this appears to be even true geologically speaking, is that the Earth has in fact been through a series of devastations.
	We find this mentioned in many ancient writings, including the ancient Sanskrit writings of India.
	There are periodic devastations where advanced civilizations are wiped out.
	And then, after that, there has to be a process, again, an extraterrestrial process of bringing the humans and civilizations back to this planet again.
	And it just may be that right at the moment we're in a downswing in one of these vast cosmic time cycles where the level of civilization tends to be going down rather than up.
	Well, let me sort of back that up, Michael.
	I do a daily talk show that deals with events going on on a daily basis, politics, human behavior, and all the rest of it.
	And many times I have observed, and I feel many times, now I realize my observation span is very short.
	We are all mortal and we don't have a lot of time to look at the bigger picture.
	But a lot of times, Michael, it seems as though our social behavior is deteriorating, as though socially we are devolving, not evolving.
	Would you comment?
	According to the ancient Sanskrit writings, we are in what is called the Kali Yuga, which is, in this cycle of time, a period in which human behavior is predicted to devolve.
	So, I wouldn't be surprised, and I've noticed some of the same things that you have, in terms of these social trends over even short periods of time.
	Well, I'm not sure that we have a long enough span to really make a valid observation.
	It's kind of shooting from the hip, but it does look that way at times, Michael, as though we are devolving.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Steve from Seattle.
	Yes, Steve.
	And I was just wondering if the human race was supposed to be around for millions of years, that wouldn't we be more advanced now?
	And we are?
	It's a very good point.
	And, Michael, to add to what he just said, why has most of the technological development come so quickly here in the last 50 years, let's say?
	Okay, so, Steve, I think we have become conditioned to what I would call the linear
	progressive time sense.
	Yes, of course.
	Where we think that everything goes from the simple to the more complex without a break.
	In other words, if it was older, it must be simpler, and if it's newer, it's more advanced.
	And in the future, things are going to become more and more advanced.
	This idea of cyclical time that I was talking about may be a more accurate reflection of what happens over the long term in human history.
	And as I was suggesting just a moment ago, we may be in a little bit of a downswing right at the moment.
	Now, as far as what you were mentioning, Art... Well, socially, Michael, it seems like socially we may be in a down swing, but technologically, we appear to be chugging right along, and that's a fairly recent development.
	The last 50 years, technologically, it's really taken off.
	Well, one way to look at this is that previously, a lot of the things that we do now with machines were previously done directly by people. In other words,
	they had the ability to see things at a distance. Now some people appear to have that even
	today as one of the extra sensory powers. Now we may be duplicating that. Now that people are
	no longer able to exercise these powers through their physical organisms, we may be
	trying to duplicate them through technology. And that may not be an improvement. It seems as
	though the powers we have, for example, to... Precognition is a good example. I don't know
	if we have the power to do that I've had one example of it myself, Michael, an experience of precognition.
	I definitely knew an event was coming.
	There's no question about it.
	Only one in my whole life.
	I've talked to other people who have had similar events.
	Is this a talent once held, now only occasionally to rise to the surface, or is it a talent
	we are now developing for the future?
	It appears to be, if you look at the broad sweep of human history, even as it's recorded
	in our history books, that these powers were apparently much more common in previous ages.
	And if you look towards the beings that are a little bit higher up in the higher cosmic hierarchy in human beings, they seem to have these powers to a degree that we can only imagine.
	So, it would appear that now we are in a condition where Uh, these powers which are natural on one level have become, uh, weakened.
	But they could be developed again.
	Okay.
	Uh, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Good evening.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	This is Roy and Everett.
	Everett, Washington.
	Hi, Roy.
	That's right.
	I'd like to ask Michael Cremo, if he believes that the mammals of the sea were brought from outer space.
	Alright, alright.
	The mammals of the sea.
	Roy, I think all the living things on this planet have an extraterrestrial origin, ultimately.
	And this is an idea that Well, the ancient Greeks had as well.
	For example, you have Plato talking about forms, ideal forms of all creatures originally existing on some higher dimension, and they're projected somehow down to this dimension in given physical form.
	So I think we've got to look off of this planet for the origin of all the species, whether we're talking about the mammals in the Oceans are the ones walking around on the land, and I think there are all kinds of extraterrestrial contacts that have taken place.
	Okay, let me throw a little monkey wrench maybe in all of this.
	Okay.
	Michael, how would you account for new species?
	Not only do some species, according to scientists, become extinct, but there are new species that appear on the planet.
	Now, are these carried down by Are extraterrestrial friends, or are they just a product of nature and the evolution of mammals and all matter on this earth?
	In other words, how did these new species get here?
	On the wider cosmic scale, from the information that I've gathered from various sources, including the ancient writings of various countries including the Sanskrit writings of India is that
	there is a fixed number of species numbering in the millions on the universal level
	and these may be
	Imported To the earth that we know
	on different time scales In other words somewhere
	Somewhere all of the species are always existing But at any particular time and place only some of them may
	be visible to us And, Drew, what means do they arrive here?
	Sometimes by extraterrestrial means, sometimes by, you might call it, intradimensional means.
	It gets you into a whole area.
	We may not even be able to penetrate all the regions of this Earth.
	That is something that we've heard down through history.
	For example, the Hopi Indians say that they've come up from four different levels below the Earth.
	In other words, there's some subterranean regions there that normally human beings and animals can't penetrate.
	So there may be dimensions even to the Earth that we're not able to penetrate, and perhaps some of these creatures enter and leave the world of our experience from these nearby regions.
	Dimensional portals.
	Right.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	My name is Nick.
	Yes, Nick.
	I live in Rockton, Illinois.
	Yes, Nick.
	Well, Michael, I tend to disagree with you.
	I think it's obvious that evolution happened by itself.
	Look at dogs and cats and what's a hyena?
	You know what I'm saying?
	There's no animal, there's no plant.
	I would say that plants and animals evolved from one being that I would call God.
	We might not have a disagreement if we see what the process is.
	If you're talking about, because I would agree with you that there's God at the top of the hierarchy and there's a process of dissent with modification by which From one generation to another, all the creatures that we're familiar with on this earth, including ourselves, have been produced.
	But that's not the kind of evolution that you'll find described in the Darwinian textbooks.
	Oh, Darwinian, or the Bible.
	So it argues with both.
	And I take it, Caller, you're uncomfortable with that?
	Well, I'm looking at the sex contract right now by Helen E. Fisher.
	Have you read that?
	I haven't.
	If you could tell me about it, I'd like to hear it.
	Well, it's very informative.
	I like it a lot.
	It's kind of a feminist view of how evolution went.
	But it's really about sex as it went and how we evolved.
	But basically, what I think is that if you look at chimpanzees and gorillas and orangutans, In the regions they are today, you would see that the rain tangs are near Asians, and the chimpanzees tend to be more like white people, and gorillas more like black people.
	And if you look at, say, Asians today, and Indians, American Indians, and then look at Eskimos.
	Well, I've never heard it quite suggested that way.
	That's very interesting.
	What how would you respond to that uh michael that there appears to be that connection to uh, some of the major?
	racial variations on the earth today
	Well, first of all, uh, I don't accept that We have come from monkeys or orangutans
	or uh
	You know gorillas the The fossil evidence, you know, the actual physical evidence that we document in our book, The Hidden History of Human Race, shows that simply we've coexisted with these creatures for millions and millions of years.
	There's no physical evidence at all that we've evolved from them.
	So, right from the start, I would have to respectfully disagree with the hypothesis being presented.
	I am curious, Michael, see if you can answer this straight out.
	Okay.
	Do you find more fanatical resistance to your hypothetical, or I guess you could even suggest the evidence of the evolution of the human being, do you find More exception to it from the scientific or religious community?
	You know, it's very interesting that I've been finding that I've been able to go all over the world, and I have been.
	I've been able to make these presentations to... I've been on Christian radio shows and television radio shows, and I find they're very receptive to the fact that I disagree with Darwinian evolution.
	Okay, the question again, from which camp do you think you find more stringent objections, scientific or religious?
	The most objection I have been finding is from those who are in the mainstream scientific establishment.
	That is where the most opposition that I have encountered has been coming from.
	I would imagine that would be true because at least your theories involve a concept of creation that religious folks might be able to be more comfortable with than the scientific people.
	I see.
	All right.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Cremo.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Joe up in Reno.
	Hi, Joe.
	And it's a pleasure to call you, Art.
	I listen in every now and then whenever I can.
	Thank you.
	I have a thought on this.
	You know, we're electrochemical devices.
	We're perfect androids.
	Biochemical computers, if you really look at us in a big picture.
	Sure.
	And the electro, being the spirit, the android, the movement, the device that moves around is the chemical.
	It may be the last answer we have time for.
	Go ahead, Michael.
	Yes, Joe.
	ozone layer or whatever, but you could see how spirits could be implanted or beings could
	come into us through something like that.
	It's a very tangible and logical way.
	I wondered if Mr. Cremo had had any experience in dealing with it in that logic.
	All right.
	It may be the last answer we have time for.
	Go ahead, Michael.
	Yes, Joe.
	I think you mentioned something that's very important.
	It seems like if we want a good metaphor for the entire universe and our place in it, it
	may be like a virtual reality system on a computer.
	Now, if you know how those operate, that means you take somebody who's outside the computer
	and you hook up different devices to their senses, like you put little what they call
	iPhones over their eyes, small video monitors.
	That's right.
	It creates the sense of being involved in the computer world even though they're outside
	of it.
	In one sense, you could say that the person is being implanted into the virtual reality
	system inside the computer.
	I think you're mentioning soul.
	I think what we really are is we are souls who have been implanted by some system into
	a virtual reality.
	All right, that is where we're going to have to end it, Michael.
	Very quickly, because we're out of time, where can they get your book?
	The book is available by an 800 number, 1-800-443-3361.
	It's also available at Barnes & Noble and other book chains.
	All right, Michael, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the program.
	Art, it's been a pleasure for me as well.
	Hope we get to talk again sometime.
	Thank you, my friend.
	That's Michael Cremo and his version of the hidden history of the human race.
	To get a copy of this program, call 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	Thank you all, and we'll see you again next Sunday at 7 Pacific Time.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	Thank you all and we'll see you again next Sunday at 7 Pacific time.
	From the high desert, good night everybody.
	This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
	not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not act.
	Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
	Please join us again next week at this time for Dreamland.

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