Art Bell

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Nov. 20, 1994 - Art Bell

01:55:50

Dreamland with Art Bell - Immanuel Velikovsky's Works - Dave Talbot

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21:27

dave talbot

01:09:37

linda moulton howe

08:18

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linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Deep into the world's oceans and into the ionosphere.
		⁇ The ionosphere is an electrically conducting set of layers of the Earth's atmosphere about 30 miles to up to 250 miles above the planet's surface in which atmospheric gases are ionized by solar radiation.
		It is also the ionosphere that Nikolai Kesla claimed that he was able to oscillate with some kind of strong focused energy back in the 1920s.
		This high-tech military device is called Project HARP, H-A-A-R-P, high-frequency active auroral research program.
		Aurora looks like it refers to aurora, and aurora usually is an electric discharge of ionized gas over the poles or the polar regions.
		The cost so far is estimated to be $30 million for a demonstration test scheduled for December 1994 next month to see if the computers can focus an electromagnetic beam into the ionosphere where the focus is desired.
		After that, several more millions of dollars are needed to evolve Project HAARP into what has been described as, quote, the most powerful such transmitter on Earth, unquote.
		What has several civilians in Alaska worry about, though, especially those residents who live in the Gokona, Alaska area where the transmitter has been built, is why they can't get specific answers from anyone about how such a military project was approved and funded with taxpayer dollars without anyone knowing,
		even those Gokona, Alaska residents who found out a few months ago when the Federal Aviation Administration began advising commercial pilots about how to avoid large amounts of intentional electromagnetic radiation that Project HAARP will generate and beam into the sky.
		Despite the protests of FAA engineers and Alaska bush pilots and ham radio operators, the final environmental impact statement from the federal government's EPA, Environmental Protection Agency, gave Project HAARP a green light for construction, which began last year and is now completed.
		It's ready to start experimenting with the ionosphere.
		But Anchorage resident Hamont radio operator and reporter Claire Zicker, who writes for Earth Island Journal, says communication to submarines might not be the whole story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here comes a report, folks.
unidentified		But in a congressional budget request, the Senate subcommittee report noted that they wanted to increase the money that they'd fund for HARP in 96.
unidentified		And the reason was so that they could allow Earth-penetrating tomography over most of the northern hemisphere, in effect, turning it into a powerful x-ray machine capable of scanning regions looking for hidden tunnels and stuff like that.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Over all of the North American hemisphere?
unidentified		You see how bizarre some of this starts to sound?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		My Lord, have you seen this with your own eyes?
unidentified		Yes, yes, I'll send you that, too.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, and you understand that tomography means being able to somehow see underneath the surface of the ground.
unidentified		That's all I mean, that's the only way I relate to that word, right?
unidentified		And what would happen for you and I, lay people, X-raying would be the thing we would relate to that's similar, although I'm sure this isn't radiation waves like a gamma ray.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, and has any of the congressional discussion on this project hard discussed the impact of these strong electromagnetic focused beams, bounce back or whatever, on biological systems?
unidentified		I have not found anything in the congressional stuff anywhere.
		We can barely get any of our elected legislators here to admit they know anything about it, yet I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 to 90 percent certain that Ted Stevens is getting some military monies for Alaska through this, and that may be as much as he knows.
		I'm not sure.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But in the last 12 months or so, you have not gotten any kind of a straightforward, articulated explanation for what HARP's whole agenda is.
unidentified		Correct.
		Correct.
		The best we've gotten is a February 1990 document that we generally refer to as the RFP document.
		It's the one that describes the kinds of things that are in the New York Island article.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And RFP stands for?
unidentified		Request for a proposal.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		It would be what I would go out to the various people that might try to build this thing.
unidentified		It would be the meeting where they all got together and they picked some bidders and what the bidders could do, that kind of thing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Who wrote that RFP and held the meeting?
unidentified		Air Force and Navy.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So it's an Air Force Navy sponsored project.
unidentified		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And...
unidentified		There's some among us that believe Los Alamos may be the real control point, but I can almost see that connection if you talk about Los Alamos relative to non-lethal weapons, which you could easily construe this to be one of, then I connect.
		But they've carefully avoided ever calling this a weapon.
		Or it would disrupt his communications according to the way they've laid it out.
		So the fact that you might be able to do more than that, you might be able to knock missiles out of the sky like if you did through the Eastland patents, You know, you start getting into that kind of scenario.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that it could be used to knock things out of the sky.
unidentified		Yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And was this transmitter in your Alaska area built in one year between last spring and now?
unidentified		Yes.
		The antenna field, they started leveling that a year ago, you know, laying in ravel pad, flattening it, and all that sort of thing.
		The antenna substructures, I drove by them in August and took a sneak drive in there and looked at it when I was out that direction on vacation.
		And I have since seen air photos in a local news magazine from that area of more or less completed antenna field where they've got the actual crossed dipoles out there now.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, how could they build all of this unless they were on some kind of federal land to begin with?
unidentified		They are.
		That's an old over-the-horizon radar site that got shut down when the Berlin Wall came out.
		Now, truly, this project, in every way, shape, and form that I understand what it's doing, has Star Wars written all over it.
		Truly, you could have used a device very similar to this to project power into space to maybe power a giant laser beam to knock something else out.
		You know, the concepts of getting the energy up there seem fairly simple.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So this may have been a continuation of an SDI project, but renamed and reconfigured because we are supposed to be out of a Cold War.
unidentified		Got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And art, as you know, since the Reagan administration in the 1980s, there have long been rumors that the Star Wars program is actually part of some kind of Earth secret war with an off-planet intelligence.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's the question we always have to keep raising.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have two big questions.
		One involves, I wonder what frequencies will be emitted by this HAARP project, both toward the ionosphere and apparently toward the Earth.
		This sounds like a dual mission.
		They said they're going to be looking for hidden tunnels, in effect, mapping the underground Earth.
		That's what I got out of it.
		And then also trying to affect the ionosphere.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, manipulating it, oscillating it, and by actually blasting holes in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wow.
		As a ham operator, I'm fascinated, and we will all be listening.
		And I promise you, Linda, we will be able to give you some input on what frequencies are in use.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And also, I think we should also address the issue of wildlife, because what's bothering these people is the same thing that should be bothering all of us who are taxpayers.
		This enormous project, and it may not be the only one on the surface of the earth.
		There may be some other transmitters constructed like this, perhaps to work in concert together, but what the whole overall agenda is is not clear.
		But this HARP site lies 140 miles north of the town of Cordova on Prince William Sound, which is on the northwest tip of Alaska's Wrangell St. Elias National Park.
		Since ordinary radar is known to be deadly to low-flying birds, HAARP's powerful radiation beam could pose a problem for migratory birds because the transmitter stands right in the pathway of what's called the critical Pacific flyway for some of the big birds.
		In addition, HAARP's ability to generate strong magnetic fields could conceivably interfere with the migration of birds, marine life, and arctic animals that are known to rely on the Earth's magnetic fields to navigate over long distances.
		As Claire, his name is Claire Zicker, who has been writing for Earth Island Journal, said, these are all unknowns and it may be that nothing will be known until they experiment, but what might be set in motion as a consequence of the experimentation.
		And one further question, which I'm hoping that listeners will actually write their congressional representatives in whatever state and ask about this Project HAARP.
		Because according to one DOD consultant named Robert Windsor, that even if HARP's beam were to be directed primarily at the ionosphere, people on the ground would still have reason to be concerned.
		On clear, damp nights when there's moisture in the air, downdrafts, temperature inversions, it can cause something that's like a ducting or a superrefracting that can send energy beams streaming back to the Earth with a, and this is the quote, a significant up to tenfold increase in field intensity from what may be being beamed to the ionosphere.
		It seems to me that this is an area of many unknowns and nothing has been answered and people who are living in Alaska who have tried to find out the details have been sort of given a runaround and this is being paid for by tax dollars and this is one area where in the United States of America we could at least maybe have a leverage point on where some of our money is going.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see if we can put a little pressure on and find out.
		That's fascinating, Linda.
		It's fascinating.
		All right.
		Where will you be next week?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I think I'm going to be reporting from Philadelphia again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's get your address and telephone number out.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
		It's Linda Howell at Post Office Box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, spelled H-U-N-T-I-N-G.
		D is in DOS O-N, Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
		The zip code is 19006.
		And I'm going to give out my fax number.
		It's area code 215-491-9842.
		And I look forward to correspondence from a Dreamland audience.
		You are giving me a tremendous amount of fascinating information, and I'm going to keep trying to report pieces of it as we continue in our evolution here of trying to find out greater truths.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, that's fascinating.
		A fascinating report.
		Thank you very much, and we'll talk to you next week.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Linda Howe, and that is fascinating.
		One, it just begs all kinds of questions, and that is what kind of effect they're trying to have on the ionosphere?
		How will that affect terrestrial communications?
		Could it possibly affect the ionosphere permanently in some way?
		And why, in God's name, would they be looking for hidden tunnels, trying to map them below the Earth?
		The whole thing is a little odd.
		Project HARP.
		We'll keep our eye on that one.
		In a moment, Dave Talbot is going to be here, and I think you're going to find what he has to say absolutely fascinating.
		Velikovsky's work became the exclusive subject of a journal called Tenzai, founded and published by our guest, Dave Talbot.
		Over the following two years, a 10-issue series, Emmanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered, helped to bring considerable international attention to the Velikovsky debate.
		The first issue became the number one bestseller on several college campuses and inspired stories in Reader's Digest, Analog, Time Magazine, Physics Today, Chemistry, Industrial Research, and World Medical Tribune and numerous other publications.
		In 1974, portions of the Pensee series were published by Doubleday, the nation's largest publisher, as the book Velikovsky Reconsidered.
		In addition to the well-publicized claims of worlds in collision, Velikovsky had, in a brief and unpublished outline, set forth an extraordinary idea.
		He suggested that in the earliest age remembered by man, the Earth was a satellite of the planet Saturn, a planet Velikovsky associated with a former golden age.
		He identified Saturn as the dying god of ancient lore, and he claimed that a disruption of Saturn was responsible for the mythical deluge.
		But over the last 25 years of his life, the details of his Saturn research remain sketchy, and nothing more than a few pages were ever published.
		In just a moment, we'll bring on Dave Talbot, and he'll talk about old myths, or is it old reality, Dilakowsky, and worlds in collision.
unidentified		Next on Dreamland.
		This is a pre-recorded, previously broadcast.
		You're Harry Freeman with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
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		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC, the RadioNet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there really a time when people on Earth looked up to see planets in close passes?
		Or perhaps even worse, in contention with Earth?
		Were planets that close?
		Was Earth a satellite of Saturn?
		Let's find out.
		Dave Talbot is my guest, and he comes to us, I think, from someplace up in Oregon.
		Dave, are you there?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I am indeed, sir.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		It's Beaverton, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Beaverton, Oregon.
		All right.
		Well, all right, I'm a little sketchy on your work and on that of Ms. Velikovsky, so catch us up.
		Help us.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we'll do.
		Velikovsky published a book called Worlds in Collision in 1950.
		It was a number one bestseller.
		It started a horrendous controversy that has gone through some ebb and flow over the past 45 years, but Velikovsky himself, who came to his study with a great deal of prestige academically, was wholly disgraced by the scientific community with that publication.
		Velikovsky had been a colleague of Albert Einstein's and other leading scholars internationally, but the scientific community was not able to endure Velikovsky's publishing a book of the sort, Worlds in Collision.
		In that book, Velikovsky argued that the solar system as a whole has been unstable in historical times.
		Most specifically, and what got Velikovsky in the worst trouble was his claim that the planet Venus only a few thousand years ago had coursed through the solar system as a comet-like body, and it nearly collided with the Earth on two occasions with devastating results.
		Particularly because Velikovsky used ancient historical sources, astronomical texts and mythological sources, the astronomical community and the scientific community believed that he had lost it, basically.
		And that was the beginning of a controversy that has continued.
		One thing that began in the early 70s was that a number of scholars took real, well, serious interest in the Velikovsky question and began pursuing independent lines of research to see just how solid were Velikovsky's basic ideas.
		That was the time that I got interested in Velikovsky.
		I was publishing a small journal called Ponce, and we decided to put out a special issue on the subject of Velikovsky, and the journal just exploded as a result of that, and it became a big seller around the world.
		It was called Immanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered, and that led then to a total of 10 Issues on the subject of Velikovsky.
		And as a result of that, quite a group of people did begin independent research.
		And this is a very big subject.
		I was one who began research with a very particular interest in Velikovsky's claims about the planet Saturn in the earliest remembered time.
		And I and others pursued the research rather quietly for many years.
		Now we feel that there has been a convergence of research in just the recent years and also very significant space age discovery that is dramatically supportive of Velikovsky's claims.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
		Pardon me?
		What are the discoveries that are supportive of his claim?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
		Well, number one, let's just take the Magellan probe of Venus.
		What we see on the planet Venus today is massive volcanism.
		We see continental scale lava flows where the normal impacting of meteors and so on over extended periods of time would, you would think, have created substantial scars on the surface.
		But in major areas of Venus, you find no impact craters at all.
		There's been an immense catastrophe planet-wide on Venus.
		There are many converging lines of evidence that are emphasized now from the Magellan probe and with leading physicists and astronomers debating each other as to how it could happen that this surface was so recently sculpted.
		You have the whole phenomenon of missing rivers and oceans on Mars.
		By some force, who knows what, water descended on the planet and then it boiled off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		That's an unknown phenomenon.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		It was not expected by astronomers and no one has produced an explanation that has gained any scientific consensus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Dave, what are we suggesting here, that planetary close calls or planetary close passes did these various catastrophic things to the surface of these planets?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that the idea?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		That's the basic idea, and that's a fundamental Velikovskyan idea, Art.
		I don't know if anybody in the history of science, let's say in the history of modern science, ever proposed such a thing, that the planetary system itself was unstable in historical times, that planets moved on irregular courses,
		that planets engaged each other in celestial combat, so to speak, and with devastating results, not just on the surfaces of the planets, but in Velikovsky's argument, mankind witnessed such cataclysms, civilizations were devastated, and a collective memory of those events was perpetuated in the form of ancient myths.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was about to ask about ancient myths.
		In other words, a lot of these planets were assigned myths because we had very close encounters with them.
		They have very large effects on the people on Earth.
		Is that correct?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		That's the fundamental claim of Velikovsky.
		I believe that completely.
		I pursued that area of research for many years.
		I feel that a definitive argument can be made that the ancient gods were planets or planetary in character, that all of mankind was obsessed with the behavior of the planets, and that the origins of ancient civilization,
		the origins of the great mythical and symbolic traditions, the first expressions of primitive religions, really all of the distinguishing attributes of civilizations themselves can be related to man's response to these celestial phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If locally it was so totally disruptive with the orbits perturbing all over the place and close calls or even hits, something had to come along and straighten all that out in view of the present alignments.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is a challenge for anyone working within the Velikovskyan tradition as to how to explain dynamically a transition from a catastrophic solar system to a very peaceful and quiet and very regular solar system.
		And there are physicists who are working diligently in that area.
		I have to emphasize, Art, I am not a physicist myself, and I have pretty much focused my own attention on the ancient records.
		But the question you ask is indeed a very valid question and is being actively discussed now.
		I do firmly believe from what I've been able to pick up on these issues theoretically that the answers are there, that we don't have to go outside of present understanding and so on to come to see how that kind of a transition was made.
		But the dramatic claim of all of the Velikovskyan researchers is that the solar system was only a few thousand years ago very unstable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely, because that would be the age of that myth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that was not long ago at all.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I would say, well, Velikovsky, let's start with his own thesis.
		He claims in 1500 B.C. there was a near collision of the Earth with a comet like Venus.
		And he also postulated a couple of subsequent catastrophes involving the planet Mars.
		There are issues among catastrophes relative to chronology and dating.
		I personally have my doubts about the more recent catastrophes claimed by Velikovsky.
		I tend to think that the catastrophes with which the ancient mythical traditions are concerned were immediately prehistoric.
		That means they occurred just prior to the rise of civilization.
		And the primary activity of the builders of civilization really was a reflection of these events in many, many different ways that we can talk about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me ask you this.
		I've had a couple of recent guests on Dreamland who have felt that there is one, perhaps two rogue planets that from time to time return and will come very close to Earth, causing a terrible catastrophe, a reversal, well, if not a reversal, at least a pole change on which we would move, the pole would move several degrees, and in other words, a polar shift.
		And I wonder if that fits into any of his theories, Vilikovsky.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I think it fits in at least within a general theoretical framework.
		Now, I'm not sure what the proponents that you're referring to are saying about these rogue planets, whether they're identified.
		I presume they're not identified with any known planet today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they are not.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		So that would be a distinction from the Velikovsky viewpoint, because Velikovsky argues very forcefully that certain specific planets are identified with specific types of catastrophes.
		The planet Mars, the planet Venus, and the planet Saturn in particular are related to very specific catastrophic episodes.
		But anyone who's arguing that planets roamed through the solar system at certain ancient periods and caused great catastrophe would be very close to a Velikovskyian idea, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, outside of our own solar system, you're suggesting there could be planets that are virtual roamers and that might at any time enter our solar system?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Art, I don't actually have any opinion on that particular issue because I myself focused on planetary mythology where the identities of the planets can be quite clearly and definitively established.
		So I've looked very extensively at the ancient mythology of the planet Saturn.
		There's a coherent story there, and I believe that story was in fact recorded around the world, and it is a quite incredible tale.
		And there are definite coherent images attached to the planet Venus around the world.
		And incidentally, those images are all the hieroglyphs in ancient languages for the comet.
		There is a massive amount of evidence to prove, I think, conclusively, that ancient star worshipers did remember Venus as a comet-like body in the sky.
		And in fact, it was the prototype of the comet.
		All the things that they thought about or feared about comets originated in that experience of the prototypical comet, which was Venus.
		And that's why all of those cometary hieroglyphs are from Mesoamerica to China to ancient Mesopotamia attached to the planet Venus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any idea that anything could occur in modern times or in the future that would relate to what he studied about in the recent past?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I myself, again, do not feel in a position to express an opinion on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess what I'm saying is, if things were recently unstable and are even more recently stable, then why shouldn't we believe they could again be unstable from whatever it is that stabilized us?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
		And it certainly suggests that the question is reasonable.
		It's only natural for people to ask that question.
		When the comet Shoemaker-Levy plows into Jupiter, everybody is asking that question.
		Could it happen here?
		And I think it's important for one to know that something of a cometary or cometary catastrophe sort did occur in the not-so-distant past.
		And that makes that question, could it happen here, much, much more interesting?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Also, I've not met anybody yet who could answer this for me, but I'll try you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shoemaker-Levy 9, if instead of coming as it did, Shoemaker-Levy 9 had been dead on course for Earth, could we have stopped it?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Boy, we would need a physicist on this program to answer that.
		My intuition says no.
		But I might just hasten to add, there are a number of people very close to the Velikovsky movement.
		I'll give an example, Dr. Victor Klube, dean of the Department of Astrophysics at Oxford University, who has, well, Dr. Klube himself has argued that only a few thousand years ago, major cometary catastrophes did affect the Earth.
		And he is arguing for a mobilization of international resources to find the means to fend off that kind of an intruder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		I think that's a very good idea.
		In addition, if Ilikovsky is even halfway correct, then there could be easily another major period of either planetary disruption or a return of a group of comets that have been gone for a long time or material that could certainly head toward Earth and kind of erase us.
		You bet.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I get asked that question a lot, and I guess I would have to say my personal feeling is one of some confidence that this is not imminent.
		I tend not to be a doomsday philosopher, but it's impossible to deny that events happening not all that long ago seem logically capable of happening again.
		And we have no way of saying, This is no way whatsoever of saying that there isn't an intruder out there, you know, with the Earth and its path at this very moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Velikovsky, again, how many years B.C. was he suggesting all this occurred?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, the great Venus catastrophe, he argued in Worlds in Collision, occurred around 1500 B.C. 1500 B.C. Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to imagine that any celestial event of that sort would be a one-time affair that would have occurred that recently, then stabilized without the possibility of recurrence.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know how you would go from a very stable planetary system to the type of unstable planetary motions that are indicated several thousand years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, to what does Velikovsky attribute the instability that he talks about not that long ago?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, now here's the problem when you're approaching something from a historical vantage point like this.
		It's one thing to say, now, look, everybody, we have a great deal of evidence available to us.
		This is evidence in the ground.
		It's ancient sources and texts.
		It's a consistent message from many diverse cultures.
		In no way were the claims of one culture being prompted by another culture on the other side of the world, but they're giving us the same message about planetary catastrophe.
		Now, it's one thing to begin assimilating that evidence and to see that there's a coherent message there and to say, well, we have to begin dealing with the fact that there is a coherent message here.
		They are talking about an overwhelming catastrophe, and they are assigning to Venus the cause of this catastrophe as a comet-like body of a very terrifying sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an absolutely terrifying thought.
		Dave, hold on just one moment.
		My guest is Dave Talbot.
		We'll get right back to him.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Many of you for this episode of Cometary Catastrophes and so on.
		That evidence doesn't answer the physics question.
		Therefore, it takes more than just those of us who are sifting through the historical material and so on to answer the questions.
		I have found that this has evolved into a lifelong research just to collate the various mythical traditions and to draw dependable conclusions from those.
		And I do believe you can do that, but it takes a great deal of work.
		The conclusions are really quite extraordinary, and they're quite profound.
		And I think they can even be convincing if we simply take the time to examine these themes one at a time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let us do that.
		What about right here on Earth?
		I mean, the dinosaurs were, now they are not.
		Does Volatovsky have an explanation for the dinosaur's exit?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't have a specific explanation for the dinosaur's exit because that was, of course, a considerable time prior to the Venus catastrophe and the Mars catastrophe episodes.
		But he argued in Earth and Upheaval that there have been major catastrophes going far, far back in time.
		And the extinction of the dinosaurs, now said to have involved a catastrophic event, is very Velikovsky and then found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		All right, Dave.
		Hold on.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		We're going to break for news.
		We'll be right back.
		Dave Talbot is my guest.
		Velikovsky reconsidered right here tonight.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Good morning.
		That's my regular syndicated show speaking out.
		Good evening, everybody.
		This is Dreamland, and I'm Ard Bell.
unidentified		This is Dreamland, and I'm Ard Bell.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Close to my own heart because in 1972, when I was really being introduced to Velikovsky's work, I began what has turned into a lifelong research project.
		And let me just give a quick background on that.
		Velikovsky had claimed that the planet Saturn and the planet Earth had once moved in very close proximity as part of some kind of a system that subsequently unraveled.
		That the planet Saturn was the mythical god of the Golden Age.
		And he spoke of Saturn having gone kind of nova or some kind of an explosion associated with the disruption of that primitive system.
		That disruption being recorded, among other things, mythically, as the Great Deluge.
		There was a large quantity of ice that reached the Earth as a result of that catastrophe and gave birth to the Great Deluge legend.
		That was just an outline of an idea, and Velikovsky never really drew out all the implications of that idea, and nothing was ever published officially by Velikovsky, but I found it extremely interesting, and it was kind of an open field to begin seeking out the evidences historically to see if something like that really could be substantiated.
		Now, the result of that was that I actually arrived at a very unified theory of ancient mythology.
		It's highly Velikovskyan, but it's not strictly Velikovsky.
		I did come to the conclusion that Velikovsky's Venus and Mars scenarios in the 1500 BC timeframe and then the 700 BC timeframe, that those have to be reconsidered and that there is actually something like a myth-making epoch in which the primary themes of myth originated.
		And this myth-making epoch was prior to the dawn of civilization.
		Now, the reason why I'm mentioning this point specifically is this myth-making epoch, I do now firmly believe, Can be regarded as the age in which all of the great mythical traditions originated, and that the most traumatic experiences in the history of mankind were involved in this period of time.
		It was a completely different natural order.
		The planet Saturn did, indeed, exactly as Velikovsky claims, dominate the sky at that time.
		Now, I found some really extraordinary things that I had never anticipated.
		One, for example, was that in a number of ancient languages, the words in those languages for sun, these are words that are translated as sun, such as the Greek helios, or the Latin Sol or the Assyrian Babylonian Shamash.
		Those words for sun were the names of the planet Saturn in those ancient languages.
		Now, that is an extraordinary idea that just makes absolutely no sense.
		But sense can be made of that if you allow a completely different interpretation to come in.
		Now, I eventually realized that the ancient sun gods that are at the center of many of the primitive rituals and so on at the beginning of civilization, those sun gods were the planet Saturn.
		And you cannot understand the story of those gods, such as the ancient Egyptian Atum Ra.
		You cannot comprehend those stories in terms of anything familiar to us today, in terms of anything we see in the sky today.
		The planets were the gods.
		The planet Saturn reigns in the beginning as the preeminent monarch celestially, the universal monarch, the ancient sun god.
		And there was at that time a spectacular configuration of planets in the sky.
		It stretched across the whole polar region of the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dave, is there any pictograph evidence of this?
		In other words, if people in ancient times could look into the sky and see Venus that close.
		Yes.
		I can understand.
		It would create the mythology you're talking about, but I don't think there would be a lot of pictograph recordings of that.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that that was a primary preoccupation, actually, of ancient star worshippers.
		The pictographs are everywhere.
		And I can tell you that I do not know of any recurring themes in the total body of pictographic evidence around the world.
		I do not know of a single theme that can be identified that answers to anything in our sky today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		not one actually well what can you point to that points to uh...
unidentified		uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		velikovsky's uh...
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Now, and it isn't going to be possible in the period of time that we have for me to kind of demonstrate a point conclusively, but I can kind of suggest some ways in which the evidence can be approached.
		And as time allows, I think people who get into this subject substantially and orient themselves to the various mythological themes, they will begin to pick up the integrity and the coherence of these themes.
		One is the idea of the ancient sun god.
		Well, pictures of the ancient sun god were drawn around the world.
		Now, that image, which involves a number of complexities, also occurs at very simple levels as well.
		It involves a circle, and inside the circle you have another circle or a star.
		Now, that image of an orb or a star in front of or in the center of a larger circle is a universal pictograph of the ancient sun god.
		But that's only the beginning of the pictographic story because that image has many, many different associations.
		But I'll tell you something else.
		If you look, whether it's Mesoamerica or ancient Egypt or ancient Mesopotamia, that star in the center of the circle, which is the largest circle, is always the sun god itself.
		That star in the center is always Venus.
		Always.
		Now, that star, Venus, in the texts, in the mythological traditions, has a story to it.
		Let me just tell you what that story is.
		And we have to sort of fumble our way into this first because it is such a big subject, and it involves appearances or forms in the sky that we do not see today.
		And we have to sort of remember each step that we're reinterpreting ideas.
		We're reinterpreting language in terms of the literal meanings that these words had for the ancients.
		But that star in the center of the ancient sun god pictographically, it has in the mythical traditions a story.
		That sun god dies.
		When he dies, the golden age ends.
		This is true in ancient Mesopotamia, in Egypt, and throughout Mesoamerica.
		When God dies, when he dies, that star, pictographically in the center of the sun, becomes a flaming serpent or dragon, which is the ancient hieroglyph around the world, together with maybe four or five other hieroglyphs that are very prominent for the comet.
		The birth of the comet Venus is synchronous with, in the global mythological tradition, the death of the ancient sun god, who is Saturn.
		Now, whatever else one may think about these ideas, then you have to just gradually draw them out.
		It's a universal tradition, and it has not been previously detected by scholars.
		The reason it has not been previously detected by scholars is that they have tended to work in specialized realms.
		And when they have seen such anomalies as the name for the word translated, or Let's say the name for the sun, meaning actually the planet Saturn, they think they're dealing with a local anomaly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, what is that suggesting occurred?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That there was a pass close enough to us.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, let's see if we can answer this question first then.
		What was happening fundamentally at that time?
		We were part of a planetary system in which the planet Saturn loomed throughout the age, remembered mythically as the golden age.
		It loomed as an immense body in the sky.
		It was the ancient sun god, the central luminary of the sky, the universal monarch.
		Now, if you take any regions, ancient traditions of kingship, you trace the lines of kings historically backward, you eventually reach a mythical first king who is a very luminous figure, who is in fact the ancient sun god.
		And that god is the planet Saturn ruling the sky as the universal monarch, considered by every ancient culture as the prototype of kings.
		That's how powerful this entire experience was on the human imagination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suggesting then, what, that it was in an orbit almost similar to ours, very close to Earth?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now we have to get to a level of a little bit more specificity.
		Not only did this ancient sun god dominate the sky, it was motionless.
		It did not move.
		Now, as bizarre as it may seem, it does not matter which ancient culture you go to, that culture will place the ancient sun god at the stationary center of the sky.
		It is the pivot of the celestial revolutions.
		That means there is only one place in the sky that it could have occupied, and that's the North Celestial Pole.
		So, however it may have occurred dynamically, the axis of the Earth was magnetically or otherwise fixed on that large, immense orb of Saturn.
		Therefore, the tradition of the ancient central sun, the superior sun, the best sun, these were the ancient terms for that sun to distinguish it from the body we call sun today.
		And that body in the sky has a very specific history, and it can be reconstructed down to highly specific forms recorded around the world, these forms behaving in very specific ways.
		And the history of that sun god, including the birth of the great comet Venus, which was mythically that central animating star appearing in the center of Venus, that its going forth as the great comet Venus, was the exhalation or the departure of the sun god's own heart soul as a great comet, as the great fiery serpent dragon.
		And then there follows a period of incredible catastrophe, remembered as cosmic night, the wars of the gods, tremendous upheavals, and then a regeneration of the sky in a substantially transformed order.
		And this great comet Venus is just raging across the sky as this mother goddess figure with flaming, disheveled hair, or as a flaming serpent battling other powers in the sky.
		But that cometary figure was, before this episode, the star, Venus, seen in the center of the sun and worshipped around the world as the great mother.
		And that was the original identity of the planet Venus as the central luminous heart-soul of the original universal monarch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If that was the order of things, is there any suggestion what mixed up the order of things, turned it into a comet, realigned everything?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Is there any suggestion in Velikovsky about what The work started under an inspiration provided by Velikovsky.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Velikovsky never said that the ancient sun gods were the planet Saturn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this is...
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Very well substantiated.
		And the idea of the central sun, in fact, has been noted by comparative mythologists on many occasions, but they've noted it without explanation.
		And when they've noted it, they have not also noted that that figure involves a name that was the name of the planet Saturn.
		So I did take the research significantly beyond Velikovsky's seminal work.
		And it began then a lifelong study of what I regard as the myth-making epoch, a discrete period before the birth of civilization in which man experienced extremely catastrophic events.
		They were the most traumatic experiences ever for mankind, I believe.
		And at the same time, experienced celestial happenings and celestial events that were incredibly beautiful.
		And there was a yearning to return, for example, to Saturn's paradisal age, the yearning for paradise, the yearning for the golden age of Saturn.
		Remember that when Saturn is said to have ruled the world, that was an epoch of cosmic harmony.
		Every civilization really arose under the hope of recapturing Saturn's golden age.
		It's a really profound motive that you see expressed in all of the primary activities of the first civilizations, The hope to recapture the age of the universal monarch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would Earth have been like, Dave, with Saturn in that position?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not able to address myself the dynamic issues or the meteorological issues from any scientific vantage point.
		I can only talk about the apparent themes of a collective recollection.
		Now, the recollection is it was an age before seasons.
		It was an age before cosmic cycles.
		There was no clear distinction of day and night.
		So I have supposed that we were part of a primitive planetary system in which we were moving through some diffused gaseous envelope, perhaps extending out from Saturn, and so that we were not experiencing the normal cosmic cycles.
		There was more of a greenhouse effect, perhaps, and that general diffusion of light tended to subdue the normal, clear distinctions between day and night.
		But in a subsequent period, that idyllic setting on planet Earth is ruptured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you suggest idyllic, but by today's ecological standards, under those conditions, life as we know it might not even be possible.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Actually, that could be true.
		I can only say that there is an accord, a consensus of ancient mythical traditions.
		I believe that they occur among all the primary cultures.
		They remember a lost golden age, and they will say specifically about that age.
		It was a time without conflict, a time without war, a time without hunger.
		The earth blossomed continuously, an eternal spring, no seasons.
		And this age came to a catastrophic conclusion.
		Now, it's significant that that mythical theme does not stand alone.
		It stands right beside the theme of the former universal monarch, the sun god, who ruled the world while standing in one place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how does Kaiser set?
		Dave, how does that stand up with the biblical paradise on earth that at once we had?
		Is there a connection there?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		I think the Eden paradise is an expression of that same collective recollection.
		And the paradise theme will be found, as I said, among all of the ancient cultures, but it does not generally stand alone.
		There usually is a central luminary presiding over that paradise, and it turns out to be the very figure standing at the head of the line of kings, who is the universal monarch, who is the ancient sun god, which rules the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dave, we've got to hold it right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to take a break here at the bottom of the arrow.
unidentified		be back and open the telephone lines for dave talbot is talking about lukowski and more From the Kingdom of Nineveh, you're here in Greenland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
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		This is the CDC, the radio network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Worlds in collision, could they have been?
		Could the solar system have been aligned, as Dave Talbot?
		An extension of some of Velikovsky's work suggests.
		If you have questions, we'd be glad to try and answer them for you or engage in any discussion you would like.
		We'll give you the full...
		Dave, are you there?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I am indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dave, let me do just one thing.
		Let me give out a full set of numbers here.
		We're going to open the lines right now.
		The first time caller line, in case you have never called the program, is Area Code 702-727-1222.
		That's 702-727-1222.
		We have the wildcard line, several of those available at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		702-727-1295.
		And finally, for everybody east or west of the Rockies, toll-free, it's 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		Let the lines ring, please.
		Until they are answered, we will come to you as soon as it is your turn.
		Are you ready, Dave?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I am, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here they come.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, how are you doing, Dave?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Very good, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I was interested.
unidentified		I heard you talking about how Venus may have entered the solar system as a comet, and I was going to say that might explain why it rotates the sun in the opposite direction from the rest of our solar system.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the physicists who have expressed an interest in this subject, and there are some very well-trained, very competent engineers and physicists and astronomers with a strong interest in this subject, they do emphasize the anomalous rotation of Venus.
		It rotates reverse from the other planets and very, very slowly.
		That's one of a list of anomalies about Venus and so on that are very noteworthy and have gained a lot of attention from the Velikovsky.
unidentified		I've often wondered if there could be a series of planets on the opposite side of the Sun that rotate possibly in the same gravitational plane or maybe in another gravitational plane of the Sun.
		And maybe, as you know, different planes of the Sun rotate in opposite directions and at different speeds, I believe.
		Or maybe not at different speeds, but they rotate in opposite directions and they Rotate separately.
		Okay, Chris?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		This is, I'm sorry to say, outside completely my own area of expertise.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		All those subjects are very fascinating to me, but I just have to defer to people who are really expert in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right, very good.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Yes, sir.
		Where are you?
		I'm in Burden, Kansas.
		All right.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air, sir.
unidentified		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I read Velikovsky in the early 70s, and at that time, just from my understanding of Velikovsky, I made some predictions myself that have subsequently been proven by science, like the hole in the center of the galaxy.
		One of the predictions that I involved was that the solar system travels through the galactical plane.
		And a couple of weeks ago, on Art Bell's message from Mary, he described a wave coming across.
		Well, this would fit into the prediction that I made about the galactical plane having a wave.
		Do you know anything about this, and has your studies led you to believe anything in this scripture?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I'm all ears when anyone starts talking about that, but they'll have to teach me on this subject.
		I have no training in these areas.
		I've been so completely preoccupied with sifting through the ancient material and reconstructing the primary things around the world that I have not had the time, except for more incidental discourse with astronomers and physicists that are pursuing the Velikovskyan areas of research.
		It would be nice to sort of have a Velikovskian physicist, for example, sitting alongside me here because these questions are very fascinating.
		And I'm sorry, I just, I have nothing that I could say to add to your comments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, sir.
		Hello.
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, turn your radio off.
unidentified		Oh, ma'am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, where are you calling from?
unidentified		I'm calling from San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		I'd like to find out about Zachariah Fiction books, if that has any corroboration with what this gentleman has to say.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		No, I think we're actually working in completely different fields of research.
		My own emphasis has been on planetary mythology.
		I've gone back and I have looked into all of the themes relative to ancient planets and celestial bodies.
		I personally concluded that the great themes of myth do have a very direct relationship to a spectacular planetary configuration in the sky.
		I believe that configuration can be reconstructed down to a surprising level of detail and that the story is truly coherent or consistent from one culture to another once you recognize the original meanings of the symbols.
		And that this is all very literal, that they drew pictures and they told stories about great celestial forms.
		The character of these forms can be identified from a study of the languages themselves and that you can see there's a coherent story there.
		It's just that we've tried to interpret that story by reference to our sky today.
		And none of the story or none of the aspects of the story make any sense in reference to our sky today.
		Now, Sitkin is really coming from a completely different vantage point.
		And I really don't have an opinion other than this.
		I do feel that his approach to Mesopotamian gods that I did observe in a, and I cannot recall the name of this particular book, I did feel that he was not representing the contexts in which those figures are actually presented in historical sources.
		He was not representing those contexts properly.
		But beyond that, I don't have anything to observe on that.
unidentified		Well, his theory is that he got this information by decoding ancient records way, way back, maybe 30,000 years ago.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And so that's why I wondered if you had read about that or knew about that.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		No, again, that's really outside my Bailiwood, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Good evening.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		This is Fritz Kolphenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Dave, have you ever given thoughts how Velikovsky came up with his writing system with Denis?
		Perhaps he was focused on by some outside intelligence.
		What do you think?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, he was also a great scholar.
		We have to give him credit for that because he moved toward his thesis about the planet Denis through a series of steps.
		He was pursuing study of the time of Moses and became fascinated by the plagues of Egypt.
		And he concluded that there was a great natural event that occurred and could explain those plagues.
		And he began to look deeper, began to notice parallels in other lands, began to realize that there was no body in this world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's all fine.
		Well, Dave, what the caller is asking is whether there is some suggestion or any suggestion in his work that extraterrestrials influenced it.
		Is that right, Fritz?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		All right.
		No, I think actually there is, to the contrary, evidence that he worked through a systematic set of findings to draw his conclusions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the answer is no.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I really don't think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I just wanted to comment on the extraterrestrial aspect of the last caller.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		That Simiasi in the Doi Meyer contact in Switzerland talked about a great event that occurred where basically the the magnetic fields of our solar system were disrupted and there was a all the planets changed position.
		And this happened sometime between 12,000 BC and the best that I can tell around 2024 BC.
		And she also talked at the same time about a special relationship that we had with Saturn.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		So I just wanted to point that out in terms of the E.T. involvement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		In other words, Dave, if you're working from known mythology, some of these folks are coming from a different direction, but the story seems very similar.
		And it would seem to me that in your work, you might want to investigate some of these avenues that would tend to corroborate what Vilikovsky said.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I will indeed consider any relevant information that is passed on to me.
		And I do have an interest personally in these other subjects and will always try to keep an open mind on them.
		The area of my own research has been on historical material, as I've said.
		So I just find these other dimensions fascinating and would like to know more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in pictographs or even in mythology, Dave, there's a great deal suggested about extraterrestrial visits or visitors from elsewhere in very ancient times.
		And so maybe there is some sort of connection.
		On the first time, call our line.
		You're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Dick.
		I'm calling from Reno.
		Yes, Dick.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		We have not been able to receive you tonight because this lousy station, KOH, has preempted your program with the football game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, don't say they're lousy.
unidentified		Well, they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, sir, they're a very good radio station, and they will carry the program after the game.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I would like to suggest that you bet on KNX because of the skip.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		KNX comes up here very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm well aware of KNX.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		It's a station, and it's a much better station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, KNX doesn't do talk, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do news.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		No, I know.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		We listen to it most of the time, except when you're on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Anyhow, this station has many problems, technical, and they have the worst conceivable local commercials you can imagine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, if I were you, I would be very careful about slamming your local affiliate, or you may end up with none at all.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, none would be better than this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
		Thank you.
		And again, I would be very careful about doing that, or you're going to end up with no affiliate at all.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, I'm Andrew.
unidentified		I'm calling from Laguna Beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Andrew.
unidentified		Hi, Dave.
unidentified		I really enjoyed this show, and I've read Belatovsky's work.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
unidentified		And I've been to Egypt and in the Valley of the Kings and to some of the older tombs.
unidentified		And it is amazing, the murals, the astronomical murals surrounding some of these ancient tombs.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		My big question is, in your theory, you have a Saturn being in the north.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		How would the southern hemispheric landmasses view it?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, they wouldn't say, actually, and it is interesting that the traditions nevertheless seem to be present.
		For example, there is the myth of the stationary sun among the Inca.
		Now, one of the great experts on Mesoamerican and South American mythology, Zilenuto, noticed that that myth was really the myth of the polar sun god.
		But it must have been carried down south of the equator and so on by migration over time.
		You even see the same indications of myths of the central sun and so on in associations with the axis and pivot of the turning sky among the Aborigines of Australia.
		There's a great deal of evidence to suggest that what was seen in the northern hemisphere and gave birth to these legends did disperse around the world.
unidentified		And it would be so big, it would be visible to the north, even from the southern hemisphere country.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I'm saying that they wouldn't have seen it from the southern hemisphere.
		The accounts, the mythology, the symbolism would have originated in that hemisphere where it was visible, but there was apparently substantial migration southward of those images and symbols.
		For example, at Cusco, I think, in Peru, the temple to the former superior sun god has an opening to the north, which was noted by Zelia Nutoll in her pioneering work on the origins of civilization.
		And she claimed that that myth of the former polar luminary was carried southward.
		In other words, the myth originated in the northern hemisphere.
		This is why we have such extraordinary parallels in the myths of this ancient sun god, the cultural hero and so on, from Alaska to Peru.
unidentified		Is this the same then Venus perturbation that Velikovsky talks about in 1500 BC associated with the Jewish people leaving Egypt and the polar shift that caused the Red Sea to split and the amount of carbon dioxide in the air leading to the creation of manna?
		What he considered to be a reaction between lightning and the carbon in the sky.
		Could you elaborate?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's just talk about Velikovsky's idea.
		And I really have to, for Velikovsky's sake, distinguish certain things that I've talked about from his work.
		Velikovsky claimed that the great plagues of Egypt, the plagues of the Exodus and so on, were connected with an overwhelming Venus catastrophe.
		and the Earth was completely shrouded in the great cometary tale of Venus.
		He claimed that out of that gaseous envelope there was a congealing of hydrocarbons or carbohydrates, I should say, of an edible sort, and that that material descending on the earth was the source of manna in the Exodus account.
unidentified		And directly associated with Moses and the migration through the desert.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and he claimed that there was an event remembered as the parting of the Red Sea that was caused by the tidal forces of Venus and the plagues of Egypt, the great wind and the earthquake and so on, and perhaps even the descent of vermin were related to this Venus cometary catastrophe.
		Now, I'm in a little bit of an ambiguous position here because my own research led a little in a different direction, and I tended to reinterpret some of these things in a non-Velikovskyan way.
		Well, Velikovsky in the fundamental sense, but not Velikovsky in the specific sense that he was interpreting those stories.
		So I think out of respect for Velikovsky, we need to acknowledge that it was he who claimed that Manna had descended from a cometary tale.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What you're saying is you don't buy that, and that's where you differ with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that about right?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've not been convinced of that, let's put it this way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't have to tiptoe around things, Dave.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'll avoid that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, there.
		No, you're not.
		On the second wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello, there.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Yes, I have.
		Pardon?
		Go ahead.
		Well, um.
		I have over 700 replies from an ad in the newspaper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For what?
unidentified		Pardon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For what?
unidentified		Could you hold on just a second?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Goodbye.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Good evening.
		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off.
unidentified		I have done that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		From Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From Phoenix.
unidentified		All right, go ahead.
		My question is, if Velikovsky was such a renowned scholar before he published this work, what happened that the tables turned that he was then vilified for not being a good scholar?
		How did it not get turned around that people took the work more seriously rather than degrading the scientists?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What vilified him, Dave?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, he claimed certain things that the scientific community as a whole felt were completely incredible.
		And they would never believe that only a few thousand years ago planets were moving on such erratic courses.
		They would never believe that ancient mythology, a completely discredited source, could provide you a level of evidence on which you could challenge the foundations of modern science.
		Science has always assumed in considering the planets that those bodies have moved on the same courses for many, many millions of years.
		And entire schools of science have actually been founded on those premises.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, it would seem to me to support the biblical version of things, Dave.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you do agree with that.
		Now, as you know, the Bible claims that creation is not very old, that things were very different not very long ago, cosmically, just a few thousand years.
		And this would tend to support that.
		Isn't that correct?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think Velikovsky believed that he was supporting that kind of literal interpretation of the Old Testament and so on.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, whether or not he did think that they thought that that's what Velikovsky was doing, in a sense, he was throwing his weight behind those kind of literal interpretations of the Old Testament.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on that note, we've got a pause.
		Top of the hour.
		You're listening to Dreamland from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to Havana Dave Talbot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		we were talking about the vilification of uh uh veloskovsky uh and when did that I do think that that was one of the reasons, and they said so explicitly.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I think there were other reasons as well.
		I think every leading scientist of the day was entrenched in a work that had existed by inertia for many, many decades, and life's work was invested in those theoretical frameworks.
		Textbooks were written.
		Classes were taught with these theoretical frameworks leading the way.
		Velikovsky was proposing to remove the rug entirely, and they just felt that that was completely untenable, and it was just too preposterous to even take the time to read.
		So the denunciations of Veliovsky generally were written by scientists who had not even read his book.
		That's how horrendous that controversy really was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		There's a lot of it going on today, too.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello, good evening.
unidentified		This is Eugene, speaking from Phil Kell, Northern California.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		I had a question concerning Velikovsky's theory of reverse polarity.
unidentified		did he allege it was caused by a large body moving close to the Earth?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he did uh as I recall and I I believe that he he suggested that an electrical discharge passing between the comet Venus and the planet Earth was involved in uh a reversal of polarity and and uh he he suggested also a tilting of the axis of the earth, in fact a tipping over of the earth.
unidentified		Okay, was this a phenomena caused by uh a large comet or was it a a potential um scenario that could uh occur again?
unidentified		Did you predict it may have happened?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess as Art himself was emphasizing, if it happened once, why couldn't it happen again?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I don't have any reason to say that it will happen again, but I couldn't say that it never will.
unidentified		Okay, I had one other question that's sort of related.
		There was an abduction in Tascaliga, Mississippi on October the 11th, 1973.
		I don't hear much about that abduction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it did they find it was fraudulent or okay, well that would be out of the scope of my guest, right, Dave?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		No, I would not have anything I could say on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A large electrical discharge that caused a reversal of the poles.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Earth, according to Velikovsky, on a very close passage of the comet Venus, was seriously disturbed on its axis.
		The axis tilted and perhaps turned over.
		Velikovsky also suggests that the direction of the Earth's rotation has changed more than once as a result of cosmic catastrophes, that the sun once rose in the west.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have said it before, and I will say it again.
		If all this occurred in the very recent past, cosmically, then there's every reason to believe that it could easily occur again, and that would coincide with some of the predictions made by Nostradamus and others about what's going to occur around the year 2000.
		I'm sure you don't want to touch that with a ten-flip panel.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of doomsday predictions.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm not a doomed day myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just that what you're saying fits into it.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but I should hasten to add that much of the doomsday psychology is rooted in the past.
		It's rooted in a collective memory of overwhelming catastrophe.
		And generally, as the calendar reaches round numbers...
		I know exactly what you're saying, and I'm not going to dispute the theoretical possibility of catastrophes happening again.
		And I think we just have to leave it as an open question.
		We do not know of anything at this moment such as a cometary intruder.
		But what did happen in the past certainly could happen again.
unidentified		That's right.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to ask your guest if he knows anything about Bodes law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About West Bode's law.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a subject of rather continuous discussion among the physicists and so on involved in the Velikovsky issue, but I would not be able to address it myself.
		And incidentally, Arch, if it's okay with you and it's the appropriate juncture, I should mention this symposium coming up in just a few days.
		It's an international symposium in the Portland area with scholars from around the world, and it will include people who can address Bode's Law and other major dynamic issues raised by Velikovsky's work.
		Dr. Victor Klube will be present.
		He's the head of the Department of Astrophysics at Oxford University.
		The very well-known astronomer Tom Vance Landern, the anthropologist, head of the Department of Anthropology at Drew University, Roger Westcott, former president of the American Linguistics Association, a leading classicist with an excellent reputation around the world, a professor of classics at Bard College, Bill Mullen, will be present.
		Dr. Vine Deloria, perhaps the most popular Native American writer in the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the theme?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		And the theme is Belikovsky, Ancient Myth, and Modern Science.
		Now, what I am able to bring to this discussion is the ancient mythology.
		What really rounds out a discussion such as this is having a physicist, an engineer, an astronomer, a geologist, an archaeologist, an anthropologist, a mythologist, and a historian all sitting together and comparing notes because it has really happened that over the past 20 years,
		some real leaders in the scholarly community coming from many different types of education and training are drawing converging conclusions that are supportive of Velikovsky.
		This is a breakthrough kind of international event happening in the Portland area the 25th to 27th of November.
		And because of the calendar, and this is so imminent at the moment, if it's appropriate, I'd like to give a phone number.
		Particularly people on the West Coast, I think they can find a way to get here for that event and have an interest in the Velikovsky subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead and give the phone number.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		It's 503-643-5863.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		And please call between 10 o'clock in the morning and 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and we'll give you full details on the symposium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, area code 503-643-5863.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and that's for information on the symposium 25th to 27th of this month.
		So it's only days away, but it is going to be an event that will get a great deal of attention, and the scholars are coming to this event with impeccable credentials.
		And they're not all Velikovskyans in any strict sense at all.
		They are all, I believe, catastrophists and believe that major catastrophes have occurred in remarkably recent times.
		And it's a great gathering of scholars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
		Hi, Art and Dave.
		This is Al from Joshua Creek, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		And I'd like to ask Dave a question.
		In your research, Dave, were you able to find that the mythology of all religions today came from astronomy, astrology, and also the 12 signs of the zodiac?
		Well, the 12 signs of the zodiac, I personally believe, are laid, sir.
		But the astronomical or celestial origins of the great myths of the world, I have no doubt of that.
		The first expressions of the religions were intimately tied to these great mythical traditions.
		The religions were entirely cosmic in their original orientations.
		And I mentioned earlier the myth of the original superior sun god.
		And those religions venerated or worshipped that ancient celestial power around the world.
		There really is no question on that, and I'd be happy to talk further on that if there's any specific questions that anybody has in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what would be the best example you could give us of that tracing celestial power?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's pretty ancient Egyptians because they are so ancient and they're so well expressive of the origins of civilization and the profound orientation to the sky.
		The original sun god Atum Ra is remembered as having presided over a golden age.
		He is remembered as the prototype of kings in the sky, organizing a celestial kingdom that became the model, the exemplary kingdom in the sky that was the model for the kingdom on earth.
		But that figure eventually fades into the background.
		The end of the age of Atum Ra really is characterized by overwhelming catastrophes and wars of the gods.
		Now, that myth is really universal.
		You see the same thing in the age of Kronos, for example, which is remembered as a golden age, and Kronos was the prototype of kings in the sky.
		The end of the age of Kronos meant the birth of catastrophe, the wars of the gods, the clash of the titans, and so on.
		Well, Kronos was, of course, the Greek name of the planet Saturn.
		A Greek ostracon also identified the Egyptian sun god Ra as the planet Saturn.
		Now, there are a whole series of interrelationships here.
		It takes time to draw these out, but you do eventually see that there is an incredibly coherent story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, to the phone lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Dave in Wichita.
unidentified		I was wondering if Dave has studied any of the ancient Eastern philosophies in regard to the advent of celestial catastrophes on Earth.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Now, there was, of course, a pervasive myth across India of the ancient central light of heaven, Brahma.
		Brahma was remembered as the light achieved the center and rose and sat no more and presided over a golden age.
		Now, that age of perfection ended in a sweeping catastrophe.
		And it's really a myth that corresponds perfectly with the myths of other ages, with the myths of golden ages around the world.
unidentified		I guess right now we're at the bottom of the Iron Age, and assuming that, well, there's seven ages that all get wiped out cosmically by the Earth tilting on its axis.
unidentified		And I was wondering if the, there's three of them that have been destroyed by comets, they say, and so I was wondering what the other four could have been destroyed by, perhaps Saturn.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you have to be really careful when it comes to these systems and so on that evolve later.
		What happens with tribal merging is that you get a great number of traditions of catastrophe being assimilated in various chronicles and so on, and then various philosophies and systems of analysis emerging in which they pull together the different threads.
		Well, there's a lot of duplication going on in that.
		And you don't generally find a coherent from one culture to another when it comes to these elaborated systems of how many ages have there been, how many catastrophes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but should there not be, David, aside from the cultural differences and the perspectives, the stories or the mythology should be very similar.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the stories are similar, but they're also duplicated to an incredible extent.
		I mean, the same mythical figures, for example, will exist by the hundreds in certain regions of the world.
		You see, there's an ancient mythical figure that I would call the warrior hero, for example.
		He can be identified through systematic analysis as having been originally inspired by the behavior of the planet Mars.
		Now, that figure, the warrior hero, emerges in later times as a kind of trickster figure that just populates mythology by the thousands.
		And that's because every ancient tribe remembered this figure.
		This figure was very active.
		He is always a consort of the mother goddess who turns out on analysis to have been the planet Venus.
		But what did that mean?
		I mean, these aspects of the story require quite fine analysis, but that there was a figure remembered by all of these ancient tribes as the great ancestral warrior hero is really significant.
		You look at details of that story down to many, many fascinating parts and so on, that they would occur around the world is just too remarkable.
		This is the warrior hero prince who consorts with the daughter of a great king.
		Now, why?
		Where did such a story come from?
		Well, I believe you can actually answer that by going to the earliest expressions of those myths.
		And you see that the myths originated in a spectacular celestial Epoch, I mean, an epoch of celestial figures behaving in very specific ways.
		The planet Saturn is at the heart of that story.
		The planet Venus is intimately involved in that story, as I suggested earlier.
		And the planet Mars is, in fact, the most active figure of all, which is why he populates the mythscape so dominantly in later times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Good evening.
		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, I'm calling from San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I just wanted to please state again about Sitchin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you call earlier, sir?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
unidentified		The lady called up and tried to say something.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I think Sitchin is kind of related to Mr. Tablet's idea because he talked about a period of 3,600 years where an extra planet in the solar system closes in and some of the things that are explained by it, such as the asteroid belt, which was a result of an earlier collision with one of the moons of this planet.
		And if I do a little quick math, since your author said that the things that Delikovsky talked about occurred at 1500 BC, it should be coming back about 2100.
		Oops.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I made exactly the same connection, Caller.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		So I thought it would be good to talk about it.
unidentified		And the second thing I wanted to ask is he's planning on publishing his own ideas pretty soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about that, Dave?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I published a book called The Saturn Myth in 1980.
		It was published by Doubleday, and I have a series of volumes.
		This work has expanded substantially in the last five to seven years, and it will be some time before I can bring those to completion.
		But I'm with the group right now that is in production on two video documentaries.
		One is called Velikovsky, and the other is called In Saturn's Shadow.
		And that second documentary does highlight the Saturn research.
		So I'm hoping that through a series of video documentaries, we will be able to save some time in bridging the communications gap here to get a general story out to people, and then that the published material would follow that.
		But this is a field in which the interest has been very high now by scholars who have been pursuing the historical material.
		And I think there is an incredible story that is going to come out in the next few years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you expect there to be discoveries in modern astronomy or science, any other field of science, which will begin to verify Velikovsky?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I really do.
		And I think anybody who would take a fair look at the direction of space age discovery would have to say that the image of the solar system presented by modern science today is much more Velikovskyian in appearance than it ever was in the vicinity of 1950 when Velikovsky published Worlds in Collision.
		I mean, everything that we have learned about the planets as the result of space age discovery has emphasized recent geological activity.
unidentified		All right, Dave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On that note, we've got a pause here at the bottom of the hour.
		Dave Talbot is my guest.
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dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's a facts in from Mike in Olympia, art and guest.
		I have extensively researched the pole shift theory due to be triggered by the conjunction on May 5th, 2000.
		Part of my research led me to Villikowski.
		I missed an hour of the show, so I don't know if this was brought up or not.
		What do you think of the 55-2000 possibility?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, you're mentioning that right now is the first I've ever heard of that.
		And I would just have to group that with other predictions of doomsday events that they're just so completely outside my own area of expertise.
		Well, it is Zelikovsky, and it's just a Zelikovskyan idea, certainly.
		I mean, it has that motif to it, and I'd be interested in seeing when people have something to suggest relative to an anticipated disaster and so on.
		I'd be interested in seeing the nature of the reasoning.
		I do think we have to apply normal rules of logic and demonstration and not fall into the trap of just simply speculating on a subject randomly.
		And we do see a lot of that when it comes to this type of subject.
		So personally, I'm very reluctant to make statements relative to anticipated disasters.
		That the solar system has been unstable in very recent times is enough of a warning to us.
		And beyond that, I think that we have to speak with some evidence in hand and so on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, from Al at the University of Arizona, I'd like to ask Dave if he's looked into historical India because they understood astronomy to be to a very high degree.
		India is also where the Greeks learned science.
		This was during Alexander the Great.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have looked into the great myths of India extensively, and yes, there was a burgeoning astronomy in India.
		It did tend to come later.
		I think most scholars would say that the birthplace of astronomy was in Mesopotamia, and they would say as well that the Greeks picked up a great deal of learning on astronomical matters from the Babylonians and so on.
		But the ancient mythical traditions of India, I do feel, speak with the same voice about the ancient Golden Age, the catastrophic conclusion of that age.
		You see the same figures of the mother goddess and the warrior hero very active in subsequent epics and so on.
		And these stories can be reconstructed down to very, very finite details, I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		I was caught unaware.
		I've been trying for so long.
		I was about, well, I'm going to get this naked in a moment.
		Three things I'd like for you to touch on.
		First of all, Venus, the name Venus, and the root word meaning like Lucifer in its connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's take these one at a time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything there, Dave?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there probably are a lot of old Indo-European roots related to Venus.
		One of the interesting associations of Venus is as the old hair star and the bearded star.
		You have the bearded Venus, Venus Barbata, the bearded Ishtar, the bearded Aphrodite, and so on, which is particularly incongruous in view of the female character of that personality.
		And yet it is very dominant.
		The word Venus itself has been connected with an ancient Indo-European root meaning beard or lock of hair.
		Now, in the ancient lexicon of the comet, the beard and the lock of hair is the foremost hieroglyph for the comet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've got to keep these short, Dave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your second question, Colin?
unidentified		Also about the idea of the 12th planet and how the Sumerians based their numbers on 12.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I don't have anything to add to that.
unidentified		Second thing is perhaps we were in a binary system in which two stars orbited each other, and the asteroid belt came from where they canceled out, and the object could no longer hold itself under its own attraction.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		The thesis that I intend to argue very forcefully for will have Jupiter and Saturn as part of an ancient binary, and the Earth was inseparably tied to that system.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see where to go.
unidentified		Let's go here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Yes, thanks for taking my call tonight.
		Jamie, program director of OK Gold in Northeast Oregon.
		Yes, sir.
		We've got, I've got a question, and I'm sorry I missed part of the show tonight, but did you touch on anything that had to do with the, you do a lot of the mythological studies.
		Yes.
		Did you touch on anything that had to do with the pyramids in Egypt?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm very interested in pyramids as a global phenomenon because the pyramid as a symbolic form does not have any reference to anything that we experience in the sky today, and yet there are surprisingly similar forms.
		And yes, the pyramid does figure very prominently in my own research, but I would then have, to make sense of that, I would have to begin talking about the world mountain or cosmic mountain.
		And on every continent, really, the pyramid was a symbol of what was remembered as the world mountain.
		But that's a subject that is hard to approach without covering other ground first.
unidentified		So you didn't actually cover a lot of maybe what the universe used to look like, and the pyramid somehow tied into that?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		The pyramid does tie in very directly with what I believe that the solar system once looked like.
		We experienced the cosmic mountain, even Mount Olympus and Mount Zion, but every cosmic mountain of every ancient culture was a phenomenon experienced.
		It was seen.
		It was a visible stream of literal material stretching between the earth and a body in the polar sky.
		So it rises along the world axis.
		It appears as the axle of the turning sky.
		It's very literal.
		It's very visible.
		And I think it's an inescapable concept once you see the concurrence of the myths around the world.
		You can explore that myth in great detail and see that it was not just regarded as a mountain, but as a stream of life, a luminous river of fire, the north wind or south wind welling up beneath the land of the gods, which was the entire preoccupation of ancient man.
		And then that's why the words for mountain will merge with the words for north wind or south wind.
		It just depends on the nature of the respective languages, which means below.
		And it will mean also pillar.
		Wind and water, basically, are the concepts.
		And it's the wind, river, mountain, pillar.
		Etymologically, the words are inseparably tied to each other in more than one language.
		And that's because mythically they were attaching different symbols to the same celestial phenomenon.
unidentified		Wow, what can I say?
		Sounds huge.
		Thanks for taking my call.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for making it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sounds like it'd take another program to do all that.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		There are many details which we'll do better to circumvent right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Yes, Symphony Biohazard here from KDI Country.
unidentified		I have some dates of planetary alignment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I think that's the May 5th date, 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that one of them?
unidentified		What date?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May 5th of 2000.
unidentified		I have June 19th, 2001.
		that's closest, but I've got also October 4th, 1995, and June 15th, 1996.
		And a question to you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Have you seen Generations yet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, not yet.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, he just mentioned the concept of alignment, and there is an ancient mythical concept that is very crucial here.
		It's fundamental to the entire reconstruction that I'm offering, and that is the myth of the Great Conjunction.
		The myth is that the planets stood in line during the mythical Golden Age.
		There was an alignment or conjunction of planets of a different sort than we see today.
		Today it's a very tentative and ephemeral alignment and very remote from us.
		But the planetary system that I am proposing we experienced so dramatically just a few thousand years ago involved a sustained conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter.
		The two bodies were moving on synchronous orbit, so we could not even see Jupiter.
		This is why when that planetary system broke down, Jupiter emerged as the sun god reborn, the sun god regenerated.
		Jupiter is in all of the dominant astronomical traditions the child of Saturn for reasons that make no sense to us today.
		And when Kronos is overthrown, it is by Zeus, who is Jupiter.
		When Saturn gives way to a successor, that successor is Jupiter.
		But you can pursue that identification throughout the ancient astronomies, and you see essentially the same story of the Golden Age giving way to catastrophe and a new figure then looming subsequently who is identified with Jupiter.
		There's no reason looking out at the distant stars and so on, or planets, why we would conjure these kind of ideas out of nothing about the planets.
		There's some concrete experience involved in all of this.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We've got to continue.
		On the toll-free line, on the air with Dave Talbot.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, I'm a religious study student at the University of Arizona, Tucson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I'd like Mr. Talbot to clarify a statement he had made earlier.
unidentified		It was about primitive religions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, turn your radio off, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure.
unidentified		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About primitive religions.
unidentified		Okay.
		Yes, go ahead, Dave.
		I was curious that he had made a statement saying that primitive religions, and he cited Egyptian solar religions, seeing that they were merely based on astronomical phenomenon or myths associated with astronomical phenomena.
		And yet in my studies, I've been taught that primitive religions really are based on the worship of nature or anthropomorphic nature.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		We have to distinguish here between primitive religions in the sense that I was using it and in the sense that you use it.
		You mean like modern primitive tribes and so on.
		I see modern primitive tribes as simply giving us very distant echoes of ancient beliefs.
		I was using primitive in the sense of the first recorded or the first known religions that can be identified from historical sources.
		Those religions were incredibly preoccupied with cosmic themes.
		And I suggested that this ancient sun god figure, who is explicitly identified in the astronomical traditions as the planet Saturn, not the sun, that this figure is at the center of these ancient rituals and rites.
		That civilization itself seems to have been born out of those rituals, reenacting a former time, the golden age of Saturn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so then modern, for example, early American Indian culture would only show you brief echoes of this much older myth.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly so, I believe.
		But the preoccupation with things in the sky was literal, and it was complete.
		And even the technologies of the early civilizations can be shown to have a very interesting connection with those earlier rituals.
		I mean, where did the wheel come from, for example?
		There was a wheel being used in rites and rituals around the world before man ever harnessed the wheel for any practical purpose.
		That wheel was cosmic in its mythical context.
		They turned praying wheels and various calendar wheels and other wheels on the walls of temples before they ever used a wheel for a practical purpose.
		That was their reenactment locally of the turning of the cosmic wheel in the sky.
		Now, who holds the cosmic wheel in the sky?
		Well, look at the ancient myths of the planet Saturn in many cultures.
		You will see him holding the cosmic wheel.
		That was a visible apparition in the sky.
		It towered over man.
		Every ancient city, every ancient temple was a replica of that great wheel, which is why they were originally conceived as wheels.
		There's an incredibly large story to be told on all of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dave.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Hi.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		I'm calling from Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can barely hear you talking to your phone.
unidentified		Can you hear me now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's much better.
unidentified		Okay, I'm calling from Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I was wanting to ask him what, well, what was the significance of the sun then?
unidentified		What did the sun itself serve as?
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have any doubt that the sun was present, but it wasn't the subject of the myths.
		What the myths were focused on was an evolving, spectacular configuration in the sky.
		It was immense.
		It was extremely close to the Earth.
		It was catastrophic.
		The fate of man hung in the balance.
		The reason why I say the body we call sun was there is that that configuration of planets involved a spectacular crescent on Saturn.
		Now, as the axis of the earth was turning, that crescent revolved visually around the polar center.
		And that gave the ancient daily cycle, the relationship of that crescent to the archaic cycle of Day and night is very clearly established.
		That crescent pointed west, so to speak, and was descending as the sky darkened and that configuration grew bright.
		It was directly below as the configuration was most spectacular and bright.
		Then, as the crescent rose to the right, the sky surrounding it was brightening, and so the configuration faded.
		And as the crescent was above, that was the period of diminished light of that spectacular configuration.
		And I throw this out as a test for anyone, investigate ancient symbols of the crescent and its relationship to the daily cycle.
		That symbolism will make no sense in terms of any behavior of our little crescent moon today or anything of that sort.
		You will see a direct relationship between the positions of that crescent, and it might be just depicted as a pure crescent, or it might be presented as the horns of a bull or the twin peaks of a great cosmic mountain or a ship sailing around the sky.
		The positions of that crescent form in relationship to the daily cycle are those positions that would be predicted by any theory that puts the planet Saturn at the pole, illuminated by the sun so that the Earthbound observer saw a crescent on that body turning as the Earth's axis turned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very little amount of time here, Dave.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, I'm calling from Eastern Oregon.
unidentified		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And my question was, in your research, did you find anything relating to the Star of Bethlehem?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good question, actually.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		That really is a good question, but unfortunately, no.
		I just never reached that particular subject.
		And my suspicion is that most everything that is stated in that regard is speculative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dave Talbot.
		Good evening.
		Yeah.
unidentified		I need Linda Howell's full address.
unidentified		I have a ton of stuff to give her on the heart on the heart stuff.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Yes, May.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Did you get that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we gave that earlier in the program, sir.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		I didn't get it all.
unidentified		I got P.O. Box 538 Huntingdon, and I just need the rest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's Huntingdon, Pennsylvania.
		Yeah, it's in Pennsylvania.
		Huntingdon Beach, I believe it is.
		Let's see.
		Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania.
		And the zip code is 19006.
unidentified		Oh, great.
unidentified		I got a ton of stuff for her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, there you go.
		Thank you.
		Thank you.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Well, Dave, once again, do you want to quickly give us the information without going through all the speakers on International Symposium, Portland, Oregon, at the Holiday Inn, Portland South, the 25th to 27th of this month.
		Here's the number to call for information.
		503-643-5863.
		Some 20 to 25 speakers from around the world will address the Velikovsky issue.
		You'll see some very spectacular fireworks at this symposium, and it's going to emerge as a very, well, a landmark event, let's say.
		Anybody with an interest in the Velikovsky subject, I think, will find it extremely fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it certainly brushes up against what a lot of our other guests have had to say, but more about the future than the past, Dave.
		But maybe that's how we learn about the future, is studying the past.
		Indeed.
		Dave, I want to thank you for being on the program.
		It's been a pleasure having you, and we'll have you back again sometime.
dave talbot ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I hope so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dave Talbot, thank you very much for appearing with us on Dreamland.
		Now, I want to remind everybody that next week, Dr. Raymond Moody is going to be our guest, and I know he's a big favorite.
		Dr. Moody's seen just about on every television program dealing with anything that relates to his work at all.
		Most recently, the Ancient Prophecies television program.
		And I guess this is my last opportunity, and I mean my last opportunity, to urge you to call and get our newsletter after dark.
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		For everybody at the network, thank you and good night.
		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not half.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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