Art Bell

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Sept. 2, 1994 - Art Bell

02:48:27

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - John Lear - UFOs

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53:24

john lear

01:03:38

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning.
		And welcome to another edition, a Friday night, Saturday morning edition of Coast to Coast A.M. Live talk radio throughout the night time.
		Now the largest, fastest, growing all-night program in America.
		Period.
		It's good to be with you.
		I promised you John Lear this morning.
		And so it shall be.
		Put a little tweak in there, didn't I?
		All right, John Lear.
		It's been a long time since John has been on the program.
		John doesn't really do interviews to speak of.
		A lot of you don't know who John Lear is, so John Lear is an airline captain.
		He is that now.
		He's flown 160 different types of aircraft in over 50 different countries in all types of flying.
		Experimental test flying, production test flying, airline passenger flying, cargo hauling, movie work, stunt flying, aircraft ferrying, air dropping missions, air racing, and government secret missions of all kinds.
		Lear has held 18 world speed records in the Learjet, including speed around the world, and holds the most FAA airman certificates issued to a single individual, which include the airline transport rating, flight instructor, ground instructor, navigator, flight engineer, flight dispatcher, airframe and power plant mechanic, control tower operator, and parachute rigger.
		He has been a commercial pilot for 34 years, has been flying for 38 years.
		He holds the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Award for Outstanding Airmanship presented in 1968.
		He has flown missions worldwide for various government agencies.
		He flew in Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos between 1967 and 1973 and has flown extensively in Europe, the Middle East, Afghanistan, the Far East, and Africa.
		As a non-sked pilot, he has over 17,000 hours of flight time, of which over 13,000 hours are in jets.
		Lear's father was William P. Lear, Sr., who not only helped develop the first car radio, the 8-Track Stereo, and the automatic pilot for fighter aircraft, but who also developed, of course, the Lear jet, one of the first and most successful of all business jet aircraft.
		Lear studied the industrial, studied, rather, industrial design at the Arts Center College in Los Angeles, and was a state Senate candidate in Nevada in 1980.
		He has written extensively about airplanes and other subjects, was Middle East correspondent for Combat Illustrated between 1975 and 1977 while stationed in Beirut.
		He is an amateur photographer and astronomer, has won several photography awards for pictures taken during his worldwide travels.
		In the early 70s, John Lear owned and skippered the 12-meter America's Cup boat Soliloquy out of Marina Del Rey.
		His interest in UFOs began after reading Bud Hopkins' book, Missing Time, then a chance encounter with a U.S. Air Force pilot who was at a base in England where an extraterrestrial craft landed in December of 1980.
		In 1988, John met a government scientist who worked on a back-engineering program of recovered extraterrestrial flying saucers for the Department of Naval Intelligence at a secret base within the Nevada test site known only as S-4.
		This scientist not only explained how these craft traveled many times faster than the speed of light, but in March of 1989 took John to a remote desert location to watch the Navy test fly one of those extraterrestrial craft.
		John, who no longer gives lectures on the subject of UFOs and has no plans, incidentally, to write a book, is currently a DC-8 captain with a major cargo carrier, has four daughters, and lives in Las Vegas with his wife, Mera Lee.
		So that's a pretty full plate for anybody's life, I would say, and a little fuller than mine has been, certainly, and I think most.
		In just one moment, we'll get to John Lear, and I think you'll find him more than just a little fascinating.
		The End Now, ladies and gentlemen, here comes John Lear.
		John, well, wait a minute.
		Let me put you on hold there and bring you up here.
		John, it's been a long time since we've had you on the program.
		Welcome back.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
		Yeah, it sure has been.
		It's been, what, over a year?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least that long, John.
		And the network in that time has grown magnificently.
		I think we've gone from about 28 stations to about 120.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, we've come a long way, baby.
		Well, anyway, John, you've done a lot in your life, haven't you?
unidentified		Yeah, a little bit here and there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been awfully busy.
		I mean, this is quite a resume you've got, and that's a lot to do in a life.
		And then all of a sudden, at some point, you decided to mix into all of this, which is enough for about two people normally, and you got Involved in UFOs.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, involuntarily, I might add.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Involuntarily.
		Well, look, we'll get to that.
		You've done something kind of interesting.
		You've given me this timeline, and I do appreciate it.
		I would like to go back over the history a little bit with you, John, and pick your brain about what you know about the incidents that you have listed for me.
		Did modern UFO ufology really begin about 1947?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it really did with the Ken Arnold sightings.
		But now, there's been a lot that happened before that.
		There was a recovery, I think, in 1941, I think in Arizona.
		And there was a lot of activity during World War II.
		But really, modern ufology started in 1947 with the recovery, well, first with Ken Arnold sighting up in Seattle, I think it was, and then the recovery of the craft in Roswell, New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not familiar with the Arnold sighting.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Ken Arnold sightings was when he saw those nine discs flying through the air.
		He was out on a search and rescue mission.
		And he saw these discs, and when He landed, the reporters wanted to know what he saw, and he said, well, they look kind of like saucers, and that was the first coining of the term flying saucers.
		And this happened like in late June of 1947, and coincidentally, just like a week later, was this recovery of the craft in Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I say modern ufology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really, there have been sightings, I suppose, for as long as man has been around to record them, haven't there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, at least there's just hundreds of references in the Bible, and before that, Chinese and Indian records record saucers, you know, up to 4,000 or 5,000 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now to Roswell very quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I interviewed the author of the book The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell the other day, and he did a pretty good job of documenting what I guess is - would you say it is the best documentation of something that has happened?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it probably is, other than, of course, well, no, that's right, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		And I know you've looked at Roswell.
		I guess it's probably one of the first things that you studied when you jumped into all this.
		What kind of conclusions did you draw about it, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, at that time, 1985, when I first got in, I think then there was over 200 witnesses that were still alive that had either touched or loaded or seen the craft and the bodies.
		And a good portion of those people are still alive now.
		But there was just overwhelming evidence that this occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What actually supposedly happened?
		What is the best guess?
		Was there a collision?
		Did it blow up?
		Does anybody speculate about what happened to this craft?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		There's theories, and I don't think it's so much so important as one happened, the fact that it did happen.
		Now, some people say there was two craft, and one landed, and one crashed on the Magdalena Flats about 100 miles east of Roswell, and then there was a craft or portions of a craft that landed on the Braswell Ranch there near Corona.
		But whatever did happen, they certainly collected a large amount of debris, and there was a lot of people involved in this effort.
		But what was so interesting is the preparedness of the military to deal with this.
		There was no confusion.
		They knew exactly what to do.
		They knew exactly what they had, and that it must be kept a secret.
		And they were very well prepared for this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that would indicate to you, I guess, that they had some knowledge of what was going on or some interaction prior to that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They had advanced knowledge that there was a possibility that this could happen, and they were very well prepared for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Also in that same timeline, 1947, the original establishment of MJ-12 and the MJ-12 documents, which I've seen, John, do you view those as legitimate?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The information is legitimate, not necessarily the documents.
		President Truman certainly formed MJ-12 on September 24, 1947.
		There's enough evidence in government documents that he did have a meeting with certain people and did form this body, which, of course, has been in charge ever since.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the job of MJ-12?
		It had a charter, right?
		What was it supposed to do?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The charter of MJ-12 Was basically to research the craft, determine what it was made of, whether there was a threat to this country, and to determine what should be done to tell, if at all, the public about what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they kind of were the overseers of all this?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they were, and they are the overseers.
		The original twelve that were appointed by Truman, the last one that died, I think it was 1983, and then was Secretary of the Army, Gordon Gray.
		He was the last member.
		As to who is involved or a member of MJ-12 today, we can only speculate.
		I really don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, since That time, there must have been many members.
		In other words, people die, people retire, people get sick, all kinds of things.
		So if it's are you saying it's still in place today?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, MJ-12 certainly is in place.
		And they have re-you know, they would have had to replace the original 12.
		I don't think it would be more than 30 were probably ever involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People talk, John, about this current administration, the Clinton administration, and how open they've been with the nuclear, you know, the tests that were done, the awful things that were done.
		And they have hopes that they will also be open about UFOs and maybe tell us what's going on.
		What do you think?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Never.
		When I first got into what they call ufology, and I think it's a dumb name, but when I first got interested in this and realized the overwhelming impact of what was going on and the cover-up that had been in place for so many years, I got up on my soapbox and did lectures and said, hey, you've got to listen to me.
		There's something going on here that we should all be aware of.
		And then that was like 1985.
		Now in September of 1994, I believe that the government was correct to cover it up.
		And as short as three or four years ago, I still thought they were planning to gradually release the information so that the public would not panic, but accept this.
		And now I don't think they ever had any intention of doing that.
		And I don't think they have today.
		And as odd as it may sound, I kind of go along with it.
		I believe that the public does not have a need to know.
		They certainly don't have a right to know.
		There's so many aspects to this thing that would really disrupt public life as we know it that I don't think they had any intention of doing it.
		The only reason that they would maybe be forced to do it is if there was a crash or a landing that absolutely could possibly not be denied.
		And they have facilities and teams in place to prevent things like that ever happening.
		There have been saucers that have crashed very, very near to cities, and it's been completely covered up.
		They have teams that go out, and it's their business to be sure that the public never finds out.
		And if this includes relocating personnel or even terminating personnel that have seen this unauthorized, either accidental or on purpose, they go to that extent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do know this.
		There have been crashes here near us, John.
		I'm to the west of you, and you know what I'm near.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there have been crashes out here, and it's true.
		The public would never know.
		They get these areas quickly cordoned off, and you don't get anywhere near it.
		And, you know, it's wreckage, and it could be anything.
		And so who knows?
		If a saucer did come down, they could get control of it very quickly, just like that, couldn't they?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		I heard of one that landed, didn't crash, but landed just maybe a few miles outside of downtown Albuquerque.
		And these teams are located all over the United States.
		They're in underground facilities.
		They have helicopters.
		They have people who are technicians and heavy equipment operators who have passes and authority to go to any civilian or military base and drive right off with this heavy equipment.
		And their job is to go and keep this from being seen.
		And one of the first things they do is they have these portable walls that are put in place.
		And then they secure the area.
		If it's like near a freeway, what they can do is have a heavy truck purposely have a wreck right there to block the freeway several miles from the crash or the landing.
		They can also start fires.
		They do really interesting things to keep the people from seeing them.
		Anyway, they erected these portable walls around this thing, and everybody stood around trying to figure out what to do.
		I think it was there for about five hours, and then all of a sudden it just left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And nobody got out.
		There was no communication.
		And it just left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You know, we're very efficient in this country at doing this kind of thing, and I don't doubt that for a second.
		I've seen it myself.
		But, John, they come down all over the world.
		Or at least you would think they come down all over the world.
		So what about other countries less prepared to make it all a big secret?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		We go in, and with money, we say, you know, we need to have this craft, and here's so many millions of dollars.
		Be sure that nobody ever finds out about it.
		We had a recovery in Bolivia, one in Argentina, one in South Africa just a very few years ago, all over the world, except for Russia.
		We didn't have any control over those, and I don't know how that happened.
		I mean, I don't know what happened in Russia, if there was any crashes there, if there was any recoveries there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In 1948, the Aztec recovery, a possible EBE-1, what does all that mean, the Mantel incident?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Aztec recovery was a saucer crash in Aztec, New Mexico, and they recovered a few bodies from that one.
		It's not sure where they got their first live alien, but they were named EBE's Extraterrestrial Biological Entities by Dr. Detliff Bronck, who was one of the first members of MJ-12.
		At some point in that 47, 48, 49, they recovered their first live alien.
		The Mantel incident is separate from that.
		That was the P-51 crash piloted by Thomas Mantel over, I'm trying to think it was in Kentucky.
		And he got up to about 30,000 feet.
		He was on clear communication, and he said, I have it in sight.
		It's enormous, a thing of tremendous size.
		And then the next thing they knew, this P-51 crashed in the field.
		It was completely disintegrated.
		There are stories that Mantel's body was not in the crash, but I don't know for sure.
		But that was the Mantel incident, and that occurred in the same year as the Aztec recovery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many bodies totally do you think they've recovered?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		From between 50 to 100, representing at least five different civilizations.
		They're all on cryogenic storage.
		One of the interesting things here is in 1972, the only civilian that I know that ever got to see the bodies was Jackie Gleason.
		And he was a very big supporter of Nixon's.
		And they were out playing golf down there in Miami in 1972.
		And Jackie Gleason, as not many people know, was one of the tremendous interest in flying saucers.
		And he had one of the biggest civilian collections of books and memorabilia and pictures and stuff like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't know that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		In upstate New York, his house was built in the shape of a saucer, and he called it the mothership.
		Anyway, in a conversation with Nixon, he said, you know, was there any chance of getting to see the bodies?
		And Nixon said, yeah, sure.
		They finished their golf game.
		They went over and got in the presidential helicopter, and they went to Homestead Air Force Base, which was right near where they were playing, and golf, and he was shown the bodies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The reason we know this story is because...
		Hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll be right back.
		My guest is John Lear, commercial airline pilot, ufologist in semi-retirement, since he happens to be here with us this morning.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine.
		Toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time call at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		Beginning of a holiday weekend, a Friday night, now Saturday morning.
		My guest is John Lear, airline captain, and very much a believer in IFOs, identified flying objects.
		And we will get back to John in a moment.
unidentified		John in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, my guest, John Lear, who has flown in jet aircraft for many, many thousands of hours and pressed a little bit, now recalls one incident where he saw something or another.
		Anyway, John, when was it?
		What did you see?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was like 1966 or so, and I was descending in a Lear jet from, I was on a flight from Wichita to Los Angeles, and descending speed like 30,000 feet.
		And I was headed westbound, and from my left to my right, I saw what I thought at the time was a NASA lifting body, that X-24 or one of those type things.
		Remember the one that the $6 million man crashed in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do, yes.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And that's what it looked like.
		And it went by, and I mentioned it to the co-pilot.
		When I landed, I distinctly remember calling Hank Beard, who was chief test pilot at Learjet, and I said, man, you'll never guess what I saw today.
		And he said, what?
		And I said, a lifting body passed me.
		And only after, you know, 25 or 30 years do I look back and say how ridiculous that was because under no stretch of the imagination would a lifting body be in the main approach corridor for the Los Angeles International Airport.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Heavens no.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know what I saw, but in all my thousands of hours, I guess that's the only strange thing I ever saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it, huh?
		All right.
		There is so much history to go through here, John.
		I guess let's jump up to a violent encounter, supposedly, between UFO humanoids and the U.S. military at Lumberton, Ohio.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there was two.
		There was one that happened in Cambodia and one that happened in Zini, Ohio.
		The one at Ziny, Ohio was an encounter between the occupants of an alien craft and a U.S. military detachment, and there was 11 American casualties and an unknown number of aliens.
		And one of the researchers met a guy who worked at the Off Limitary at Wright-Pat who claims to have seen bodies on litters arriving at the base during that timeframe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		you know as i go through the history it is interesting in in one respect all of these occurrences all of these witnesses all of these bodies um...
		How can that be?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's great.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They can keep a secret if they want to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's really true.
		And if anything, the revelations about the nuclear testing, I think, prove that.
		You know, I can't imagine how our government could have kept secret the fact that they were feeding radiation to children, that kind of thing.
		But they did.
		All right.
		You mentioned Cambodia, a firefight between U.S. military and small gray humanoids?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was in April of 1972.
		And what happened is Members of the U.S. Army Special Operations Group were involved in a firefight with the occupants of an identified alien craft.
		There were several alien casualties and a single human death, though several were burned by an unknown weapon.
		And what happened was this platoon happened on a group of aliens who were sorting human body parts into large bins and sealing them.
		A firefight ensued, and several of the aliens were killed through headshots because the suits that they were wearing were essentially bulletproof.
		And as the soldiers pulled back, several of the aliens quickly packed as much as they could, got in this craft, and it took off.
		The unit was interrogated originally by military personnel and then by civilians who were identified as representatives of magic.
		And they are part of the Majestic group that go out and help cover these things up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Looks like we're going to jump into the tough stuff early.
		Why, John, would they be packing up body parts?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, you got me.
		For every answer I've ever gotten in all this research, I get ten more questions posed.
		So if you're looking for answers...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you have not ruled out the possibility, have you, that we are, for them, food?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but it's kind of far out.
		I did make that statement once in an interview, and I've regretted it ever since because it sounds so outrageous.
		I'm not sure that that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really did sound outrageous then, but you know something?
		I've been interviewing a lot of ufologists, scientists, scholars, people who have said things that when they say them, John, they suddenly hearken back to some of the early interviews that I did with you, and I'll say to myself, sometimes out loud, I'll be damned.
		You know, I remember John said that, and a lot of people guffawed, and here we are.
		I mean, a lot of that stuff that you told me, John, has been coming back recently.
		And a lot of investigators, John, are beginning to go down some of the same roads you did.
		Back then, you were one of the only ones saying, look, these guys are not necessarily warm, fuzzy, nice people who wish us well.
		And you were almost alone then.
		But now, let me tell you, John, more people than not are beginning to join you in that view.
		At any rate, the Dulcie incident.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now the Dulcie incident I first heard about in 1986 or 1987 when I was invited to be part of a group of researchers who met at Crestone, Colorado, and we just traded information.
		And I was handed a letter by one of the guys who had gotten this letter from a person who lived in Las Vegas and said, why don't you research this?
		And it talked about this underground base, and it was founded so far out.
		But I met with this person, and she had known one of the officers who had worked inside this base and originally told about the massacre at Dulcie.
		I further heard a story by a guy named Paul Benowitz, who lived in Albuquerque, who was involved in this, and he told me about it also.
		And the story went that in 1979, we had 44 scientists who were being instructed by the aliens in some subject.
		I don't know what it was, but they were being instructed at Dulcie.
		And for some reason, it was agreed that our security force, our Delta force, would not carry conventional weapons at any time in this classroom or around this area.
		And for some reason, one of the officers walked in with a conventional sidearm, and the alien killed him outright.
		Now, how that was done, I don't know.
		But on the video, on the monitor, his compatriots, or the Delta Force, saw that he was killed, and they went down en masse to exact revenge.
		And it ended up that all 44 scientists and about 66 of the Delta Force were killed.
		It was just a complete massacre.
		So I just put this in the file.
		It was an interesting story.
		And it didn't come up again until Bob Lazar, who worked at S4, and we'll get into that later, read a report that documented this massacre.
		Now, the only thing different about the report that he read was that in the report he read, the massacre occurred somewhere around Area 51 at Groom Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any indication of how they were killed, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, just head wounds.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		In the report, it was said that they died of head wounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Head wounds.
		Again, that's a lot of relatives who are going to be requiring explanations and that sort of thing.
		How was it all explained?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, now remember, this is just speculation of how they handle it.
		We've realized now that most of the people that get in this program do not have relatives for one week or another.
		Either they're orphans or their family has passed away or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and it's essential that this kind of thing happen or kind of go this way because they don't want to have to take the time to explain away the death of a relative so the people who do these things are screened specially for this kind of work which includes not...
john lear ▲ ● ▼		very specially They can go to the family and say, look, we're going to give you an annual or monthly stipend, but this is national security, and it's for God and country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so here we mention this again.
		Yeah, so sign this, and it'll be done.
		yeah, I understand.
		Then, I think it was an incident that had a lot of influence on you, didn't it?
		Bentwaters in 1980.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Bentwaters occurred during three days in the end of December.
		We have a United States Air Force base about 70 miles northeast of London called Bentwaters.
		At that time, I think it still is, an A-10 base, the Warthog tank killer.
		And very strange things happened during those three days, culminating with the, it wasn't a landing, it was an appearance of a very weird aircraft witnessed by General.
		General Gordon Williams, who was the base commander, Major Ted Conrad, Colonel Chuck Halt, Larry Warren, and a few others.
		But at any rate, the incident did occur, but it was just a story.
		as far as I was concerned.
		Many pilots had heard it.
		And in 1985, I ran into a friend here in Las Vegas, an Air Force friend that I knew in Laos.
		And he was transferring from the regular Air Force to the Guard, and he came over to the house, and we started talking about stuff.
		And I mentioned, you know, I asked where he'd been based, and he mentioned Pentwaters.
		And I said, oh, that's supposedly where that saucer landed in 1980.
		He said, no, John, not supposedly.
		It did.
		He said, I didn't see it because I was confined to quarters, but I know the guys who did.
		And he said, I'll give you their names.
		And I said, wait a minute.
		You're telling me this stuff is real, that there are flying saucers?
		Because at this time, I had no real interest in this stuff.
		My interest was in spy planes, SR-71s, U-2s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		What about your dad, John?
		I know your dad had great abiding interest in all of this.
		Didn't any of that rub off on you, or was it self-ignited?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, because there was no proof.
		He was certain that they existed.
		And now that I look back, it's because of who his friends were.
		He was friends with General Vandenberg, who was first head of the CIA and original member of MJ-12.
		He was very, very close friends with Jimmy Doolittle, who was up to his eyeballs in this alien stuff.
		But, you know, he never let on to me, and it was just not a part of my interest.
		Sure, you know, everybody's interested in flying saucers, but unless you see one or have hard evidence, it's just not a part of your life.
		But in 1985, it became a part when Grapes said, yeah, it's true, it's going on.
		And that's what involuntarily, I might have, launched me into this research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so that was then really the beginning of your interest?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		In 1983, you have written second attempt at public disclosure, Linda Howe, MJ-12, and something about HBO.
		What does all that mean?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		This was when Linda Howe was contacted by MJ-12 in order to do a documentary, and they said that they would make available to her many, many thousands of feet of saucers and whatnot.
		And they wanted her to write a documentary that would be presented on HBO.
		And she contacted HBO, and HBO said, we'll do it, but before we air it, we want a filmed interview with the President, his Chief of Staff, and his National Security Council saying that this is true.
		And MJ-12 essentially led her on a round-robin, so to speak, of different bases and different facilities and all kinds of things for about eight months.
		At the end of which, it was just terminated.
		She never heard anything more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that must have been very frustrating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to have to ask her about that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		There was no more contact, and only a few years later did she run into somebody who was involved in that, and they said, I'm sorry it turned out the way it did, Linda, but we had no option.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		There was no further explanation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The stories she told me of where they took her, and the things she saw is just absolutely fascinating.
		And, of course, Linda Howe is very articulate, very knowledgeable, and keeps voluminous notes.
		So, you know, it wasn't just some story she was telling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, John, again, on the subject of Linda Howe, I talked to her earlier today, and she said she's going to be on the way to New Mexico.
		She's had enough.
		There's too much going on down there, so she's going to be on her way to New Mexico, and will be reporting to us from New Mexico.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, she was the leading authority on mutilation.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		She did that documentary for the ABC affiliate in Denver in 19, I think it was, what was it, 1980?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, I believe so.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And then her and I, after the Creststone meeting, drove down to Roswell.
		And oddly enough, here we are driving out in the middle of the desert, just about 15 miles north of where the first UFO crashed.
		And we're on this little teeny road.
		It's a dirt road about a million miles from nowhere.
		And I'm driving along in this truck, and we saw a dead cow.
		And I thought, well, here I am with the world's leading authority on cattle mutations, and we see a dead cow.
		So we get out there, and there was none of the classic cookie cutter incisions.
		But we started looking around, and we saw three others.
		And then we saw two others.
		And then I stood up on the bed of the truck, and I think we counted 34 cows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And so we went to, found the nearest ranch and asked the guy if he knew about the cows.
		And he said, yeah, he said they died of some disease.
		Well, Linda Howe checked in with a veterinarian on this, whatever the disease was, and I don't remember what it is now.
		But the veterinarian said, no way.
		He said, if that had been that disease, that place would have been cordoned off within 100 miles.
		Just a very odd, one of those unexplained diseases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and I've heard Linda Howell tell exactly the same story, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I guess that's the way it happened.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That was her experience, and that was like in 1986.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		She's still trying to get it out to the public today.
		And that's, what, well over a decade now.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then the Eisenhower briefing leaked to Hollywood producer and friend of Bill Moore.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was Jamie Shandra.
		And one day he received in the mail this film, which was undeveloped, which he had developed.
		And it was the Eisenhower briefing as we've come to know it.
		And it was supposedly the briefing that Eisenhower got when he became president on the alien situation.
		It told about the Roswell crash.
		It told what there.
		It told the original members of MJ-12 and what they planned to do with it.
		It's a very interesting document.
		Now, people say, and I say the information was definitely true, not necessarily that the document itself was a legitimate document.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or apparently.
		All right.
		Then you say 1985, My Interest Begins.
		Actually, it began a little earlier than that.
		what made you write that, John?
		Why 1985?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's when Greg Wilson came through Las Vegas and told you the story about that water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay, I see.
		Then 1986, and I remember this one very well.
		JAL 747 Captain is followed by UFO three times as big as an aircraft carrier, and I remember that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was an enormous, enormous craft, and it followed him for an hour.
		He was on his way from Keflovik, Iceland, to Anchorage, fuel stop in Anchorage, and then on to Japan.
		And about an hour out of Anchorage at 33,000 feet this night, this thing appears in front of the aircraft.
		And it was not a passenger flight, it was cargo, and so there's only three guys in the convent, but they all thought radar had it.
		Recurring to be sure it wasn't some gigantic reflection of some sort.
		They went down to 29,000 feet to see if it would follow them, and it did.
		And then after about an hour, it just left, and they landed, gave their FAA report.
		And other than a few comical news stories, they ignored by the press, specifically by Aviation Week and Space Technology, who is our premier aviation magazine, doesn't give it one word, not even a sentence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, for all your flying, John, and the one incident you have had that may have been something like that, you must talk to all kinds of other captains, lots of friends in the industry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they talk about this, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Not unless policy, cockpit etiquette bring this up, unless I've been with the crew for a long time and unless it seems appropriate.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		But you find out that maybe a third of the pilots have seen something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		This is where we pause.
		We've been doing sort of a historical look at UFOs, how John became involved, and we're just about up to modern.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		From Buck Bearing Coast to Coast AM with our bell.
		Much more than just a talk show.
		To participate in the program call toll-free.
		1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		And when we get the telephone lines open, that toll-free line will be restricted to people east of the Great Rocky Mountains.
		Good morning.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		My guest is John Lear, airline captain, IFO investigator in semi-retirement.
		And we'll get back to him in just a moment.
unidentified		The End.
unidentified		End.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you All right, back now to John Lear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're getting up toward the modern day here, but first, let us look at 1987 and particularly the Gulf Breeze sightings, because that's still going on, John.
		It's still going on.
		We're getting photographs.
		There have been recent photographs, one, which is a very picture.
		A lot of people are following up on that right now.
		And the same gentleman at Gulf Breeze continually seeing these craft.
		What is your assessment of what happened at Gulf Breeze?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I first heard about it in 1987 when the Channel 4, I believe it was down there, put out the documentary, and it had Ed Walter's film that he took out the back door of this craft hovering behind the tree line there, just over the tree line.
		And it was tremendously interesting.
		There was no doubt in my mind from the videotape that this thing occurred.
		But there were so many people jumped on it as a hoax, and they just did backflips to try and prove it was a hoax.
		But in my opinion, it was not.
		It was a true thing.
		And Ed Walters just took a tremendous amount of flack over the years for showing this film and for saying the things he did.
		But I believe him 100%.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's not easy to get as an interviewee.
		i've tried to get in walters a few times and uh...
		he's uh...
		somewhat cantankerous and uh...
unidentified		not very interested uh...
		uh...
		From the Kingdom of Mind, you're here in coast to coast a.m. with Mark Bell on the CBC radio message.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		I am Mark Bell.
		My guest is John Lear, airline captain, believer in identified flying objects, IFOs.
		He says he knows what they are.
		We've done a two-hour review of UFOs since about 1945 or 2006, and John Lear's career and what he's done with UFOs.
		And John doesn't give many interviews.
		This is one of those rare times.
		So I suggest you stay planted.
		We're about to open the telephone lines.
		In fact, we are going to do that coming up now in just a moment.
		I want to remind you, the toll-free line For the remainder of this hour and possibly a little longer since we haven't even opened them yet.
		The toll-free line is restricted to those of you east of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies only.
		1-800-618-8255.
unidentified		1-800-618-8255.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, everybody.
		I'm Mart Bell.
		My guest is John Lear, the son of Bill Lear, who invented the 8-Track tape deck and invented the Lear jet, of course.
		John's father had an abiding interest in UFOs.
		John got one himself, but not because of his father's, interestingly.
		He did it on his own because of events that we've just documented over the last couple of hours.
		Now, back to John Lear.
		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Neil Armstrong, on the occasion of the anniversary of the Apollo mission to the moon, was at the White House about three weeks ago now, I guess, four weeks ago, something like that.
		Anyway, Neil Armstrong rarely does public appearances, rarely has anything to say, but when he does, wow.
		What he said, and I took this quote directly from the NBC Evening News, was as follows, quote, and he said this at the White House, quote, there are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
		There are places to go beyond belief, end quote, Neil Armstrong.
		What do you think he meant, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it sounds like a pretty prayerful statement.
		You know, both Neil and Buzz Aldrin and most of the astronauts all of them have seen something, and they've all seen incredible things.
		And they've been silenced by NASA.
		And over the years, you know, it kind of wears at them.
		They'd like to get it out, but they can't be as blatant as say, yes, I saw this and yes, I saw that.
unidentified		So I think that's basically what he's saying.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I've heard some of the astronauts come out very vociferously and say, listen to me carefully.
		There are no UFOs.
		Do you understand what I'm saying?
		No UFOs.
		And what they're saying is, no, there's no unidentified flying objects.
		They're all identified.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The astronauts, particularly the ones that went to the moon, the early astronauts, have all had big trouble, John.
		Psychological troubles, a lot of divorces, a lot of drinking, a lot of trouble, period.
		And one source of that trouble, one might speculate, is that they have knowledge that they can't talk about that's eating away at them.
		Could that be so?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Definitely.
		And that's one of the ways in which they keep this secret is through it's called pain, drugs, hypnosis, where when they tell you this stuff, they give you a briefing, and it involves pain, it involves drugs, it involves hypnosis, so that it doesn't bother you that much, but it doesn't always work on everybody.
		And they know they have this knowledge, and it's hard to know something with the ramifications of this kind of thing and not be able to be able to tell somebody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it would eat you alive, I suppose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, just before we go to the phones, you have said, and this really is very different than a lot of ufologists today, that you've come to the conclusion that while you were digging in earlier years so that the world might know, you now don't think we ought to know, or that we have a right to know, or that it would be good for us to know, or how do you explain that and why?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it has to do with religion.
		And no, people should not know this.
		This is something that, as irritating as it might be, it's none of their business.
		There's nothing they can do to influence or modify it in any way.
		It's best they just go on with their lives and pay their taxes, find something they enjoy, boating, sailing, growing lawn or something like that, and get on with their life.
		Because there's no reason to know this.
		And if they knew the true ramifications of this, it would bother them.
		It would eventually result in the breakdown of society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The breakdown of society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much do you know, John, without telling me what you know, how much do you still know that you haven't told?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Not very much.
		I've told you much of this stuff.
		You know, the stuff I'm not talking about is religious stuff.
		And if you think a while, you can figure out what it's all about.
		You know, it's I've told you most of the stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But maybe not all.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, not all, because there's a lot of sensitive, very sensitive stuff regarding religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let us take some calls, John.
		And I want to remind everybody, the toll-free line is East of the Rockies only at 1-800-6188-255.
		And let us venture forth.
		Hi there.
		On our East of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello, John.
unidentified		This is Cogo, San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Diego, yes, sir.
unidentified		All right, great Joe.
		Question.
		Sounds like if the U.S. has some of this technology that it really wouldn't be too big of a problem being confronted with other nations like Russia with their type of military.
		Do you think this type of technology can be implemented in such cases like war or anything like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about it, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it certainly can, and this may be the result of the breakdown of the Soviet Union.
		Maybe we told them what we got and which direction we want them to go in.
		I don't know that for a fact, but it's possible that happened.
		Our technology base is about 30 years of where everyone thinks it is.
		When you look at the space shuttle and all the satellites and the neat stuff we got Going, our technology base is 30 years ahead of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		30 years ahead of that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Just to give you an example of what I'm talking about, about 25 years ago, you read in the paper about talking rock technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And what that was was they put a rock in an anointed chamber and gave it a pulse like hello.
		And the rock absorbed the vibrations, and by measuring the vibrations, about a half a second later, measuring the vibrations, they could pull out the word hello.
		Well, in 25 or 30 years later, what they have now is a means to beam into a room and pulling off, measuring the vibrations that have been given any of the crystal structure like glass or windows or any like that, and pull out a conversation that was held seven days ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Wow.
		That's some technology.
		On our East of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you, sir?
unidentified		In Leavenworth, Kansas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Leavenworth.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Go ahead.
unidentified		I was wanting to talk about Project Blue Book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I was wanting to find out whether it's still being researched or if you've even heard of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, we've heard of it.
		John, any comments on Blue Book?
		It was, it is no more, or is it now going on below the surface?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was established in 1948 or 49, and it was brought to a halt in 1969 by the Condon Committee.
		And what they said is, based on all their research, flying saucers did not represent a threat to national security.
		Now, they didn't go as far to say as they didn't exist.
		What they said was they're not a threat.
		But Project actually, the actual project was called Grudge, the research of different sightings, and yes, that still goes on.
		Project Grudge is an active project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting conclusion.
		To not rule out their existence, but state they are not a threat to national security doesn't make sense to me.
		If they exist, they certainly would be a potential threat.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, they got away with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Kansas City, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kansas City, Missouri, all right?
unidentified		Okay, what I'm going to say here has to do with the religion aspect, if that's okay with Mr. Lear.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Okay, here's my opinion.
		This is just my opinion now, so this might not mean anything to you at all.
		But I am a Christian.
		And what I have gained from this is that this is just my opinion, but UFOs have actually been built under the watchful eye of the Illuminati.
		Does that make any sense to you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've heard that before.
unidentified		What do you think about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Choose your words carefully.
unidentified		Huh?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
unidentified		For the reason to explain.
		Do you believe in the rapture?
		At all, I don't mean to make this into a religious show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, please, please don't.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, John believes there is a connection between religion and UFOs.
unidentified		Can he please expound on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That you would not find agreeable and which he would rather not expound on, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, it's all the same to you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I do not want to expound on my religious views.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's kind of like when you say this, and I guess we had to cover it, John, but when you say this, it's like putting a box on the table that says, do not open this box, and then just leaving it there, and everybody who comes past will inevitably open the box.
		And so they want to open the box.
		I understand that.
		But perhaps some boxes are best left unopened.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I'm calling from the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I can prove right now that what Mr. Lear is saying is the opposite of the truth because the U.S. government is not covering up information about the existence of extraterrestrial life.
		Government intelligence agencies have been spreading the rumor that aliens are among us to UFO researchers, and this has been documented by Jacques Valet in his book, Revelations.
		For example, in 1983, the proven disinformation agent, Richard Doty at Kirtland Air Force Base, invited Linda Howe to that Air Force Base and showed her these alleged secret documents claiming aliens among us.
		Then in 1985, Jacques Fillet and J. Allen Hynek were invited to Norton Air Force Base by some generals there and told that aliens are among us.
		And I think it's all a lie, and I have a reason for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, give that to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said you had proof, sir, so go ahead and lay it out.
unidentified		The proof is what I just told you, and if you just get Jacques Villais' book, Revelations, that proves that the government isn't hiding it.
		It's pushing it on UFO researchers.
		And the reason for this reverse psychology disinformation campaign was stated by Stanton Friedman when he said that a belief in alien life would cause people to lose their faith in the value of nation-states and lead to the acceptance of world government, which is exactly what the power elite who control the government wants, since their multinational corporations have the most to gain from globalism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So there it is, John.
		He lays it out.
		It is something he's charging to lead us toward the one world government, that sort of thing.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly respect his opinion.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And since I don't have any hardware, I'm certainly not going to be able to prove what I say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, at one time, can you tell the story about Element 115?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Element 115 is the power source for these extraterrestrial craft.
		We've been able to synthesize up to like 106, but there is an element on up the line that is 115.
		And by pumping protons into 115, it becomes 116, which immediately decays.
		And what the result of the decay is, is antimatter.
		And when antimatter is mixed with matter, it's 100% conversion of matter to energy, which is a very, very large explosion.
unidentified		And what they do is they control this explosion to create heat.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And also out of this reaction, they pull off the gravity A wave without going into details, they use to propel themselves across the universe at speeds hundreds of times faster than the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At one time, and you tell as much of this story as you can or tell me to go fly a kite, but you had your hands on some 115, didn't you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Bob Lazar had his hands on some 115.
		We did some experiments which proved it was exactly what he said it was.
		And I believe it was the evening of the George Knapp.
		UFO's the best evidence.
		We kept very close watch on this stuff, but since we had it four or five months, we became a little careless and it was left out.
		And that night they broke into Bob's house and took it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you no longer have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's about as close as you've come to hardware.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Randy from Leavenworth, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Randy.
unidentified		I'm calling to ask Mr. Lear about the three different kinds of aliens.
		I did a subscribe to a newsletter, and it talks about all the government research, and the different types of ships are different aliens from different sectors in the universe.
		And there's the reptilian form, the insectoid, and the human type.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there may be a lot more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, how many are there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, opinion, and this is only my opinion, there's about 70 types that are visiting Earth at one time or another with various agendas.
		Some of them don't have anything to do with what's going on here.
		They're just coming down to take a look.
		But they're all different types.
		And some of them, if you had a chance to look at it, you would actually die of fright because they are so alien to what we are used to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's that, Color?
unidentified		That sounds good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks.
		You would die of fright.
		Are they able to appear to us in a form different than that which would cause us to die of fright?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Apparently, some of them can do that, but according to some of the abduction stories, they hide themselves.
		You can't get a look.
		You can see their shape, but you can't see their face.
		And that's prevalent if you've read John Mack's book.
		That's prevalent throughout all the abductions that they cannot see the face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had John Mack on the program about three weeks ago, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting guy, and I really enjoyed his book.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was more of the same, but it's interesting stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know about the incident in which some young lady apparently set him up?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I thought that was really disgraceful, but it's just media tactics.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't know what she gained by that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or what agenda or whose agenda she was serving by doing that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was just an unfortunate incident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I mean, here we've got a Harvard professor, lots of credibility, and he gets set up.
		I mean, that's just almost too much for even me.
		John, hang tight.
		We're bottom of the hour.
		We'll be back to you.
		John Lear is my guest.
		Pilot, pilot now, captain of an aircraft.
		We'll be back with more on UFOs.
unidentified		We'll be back with more on UFOs.
unidentified		From the Kingdom of My, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		I am Art Bell.
		My guest is John Lear, and we are talking about IFOs.
		In deference to John, identified flying objects.
		We'll get back to John in just a moment.
unidentified		John in the House.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you Now, back to your calls and John Lear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, are you there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you ready?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		All set.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here they come.
		On the east of the Rockies line, top of the morning, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Fort Worth, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fort Worth, Texas, okay.
unidentified		Now, Mr. Lear, you say there are things you don't want to talk about for religious purposes, but I wanted to tell a story that I believe is true.
		All the cosmonauts reported seeing these huge angelic-like beings with their arms crossed and a smile on their face like they knew something was going to happen.
		And that was before Chernobyl blew up.
		And John Glenn reports seeing something on Freedom 7 flight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it really is true.
		With regard to the angelic beings, John, I also remember that report.
		Do you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Now, when they had their arms crossed and they were smiling, they were smiling because Chernobyl was going to happen?
unidentified		Could be.
unidentified		Now Russia wants Bibles.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		What kind of an angel is that?
unidentified		Russia now wants Bibles in their schools.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right, ma'am, thank you.
		That's no guardian angel, is it, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I would like to have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder how she could conclude that it was because of Chernobyl.
		That's really strange.
		On the other hand, I recall you saying one thing to me, John, that has haunted me for years and haunts me today.
		We have had a number of guests on this radio program about life after death.
		Inevitably, in every warm and fuzzy life after death story, people rush toward the warm, inviting light.
		Down the tunnel, into the light.
		And once you said to me, John, don't go toward the light.
		It's a trick.
		Go toward the darkness.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, now remember, I qualified that by saying that's what Whitley Streeber told me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it still bugs me to this day, John, because what if I had to make that choice?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, right now I'm going towards the darkness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		Oh, boy, that really drives me crazy.
		On our toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		I'm calling from Kodiak, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kodiak, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, this is Dave.
		I've heard John talk about time travel, and I'm convinced that time travel is possible, and it's already happened.
		I opened those seals when I was 30 years old, and that, together with my birth date and the scriptures, unlocked the whole mystery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Don, time travel, time travel.
		We've talked about it before.
		It's one of my favorite subjects.
		Do you believe time travel to be possible?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No question about it.
		That is absolutely possible.
		You can go forward in time much easier than you can go back, but you can certainly go back in time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I once wondered, as have many people, and I'm going to make you tell me it's not true again, whether you and Mr. Lazar have thought of trying to construct something to traverse time.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, we've thought about it, but it's a big deal.
		I mean, you just can't go out and make this thing.
		You need a lot of equipment.
		So that's, you know, sheer speculation, and it'd be fun to try, but, you know, we don't have any of the stuff.
		But we certainly have talked about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just an idle question of curiosity, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had such a device.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Incidentally, we were going to go forward because that's a lot easier to do than going back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was going to be my question.
		Where would you go?
		Time-wise?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, all you have to do to go forward in time is create a strong gravitational field.
		And you more or less just stay there while all the rest of the world passes as time goes by.
		Then when you remove the gravitational field, you're wherever they were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		All right, on my East of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm San Antonio, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Antonio, Texas.
		All right.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		I've got a story about a friend, a dear friend of mine, I've known him about 12 years.
		He's a retired colonel, and I'm not going to lease his name for he never gave me permission to do so.
		But he relayed a story to me and my wife about his encounter with a spaceship.
		Now, he told me that he was on his way to West Texas, driving, I guess, toward El Paso.
		And he and his wife had seen this aircraft, but he said it wasn't an aircraft.
		It was a large disc.
		Said it went across his vehicle, came back, hovered, went vertical, up and down, then left and right, and then just left.
		And then he's an Air Force colonel, retired, and he's still an aviation.
		He flies private flights now.
		He said there's no way anyone can ever tell him that there doesn't exist alien.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you.
		Well, there's a story.
		It's true.
		Once you've seen one yourself, your attitude really changes, doesn't it, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it really does.
		But, you know, so few of us get to see those things.
		Now, for instance, I'd love to see one.
		I saw the one that Bob took me up to, and I saw that at night.
		Now, my wife, Marilee, who didn't believe in any of this before, as a matter of fact, you know, it almost came to, it almost split up our family because of my interest in this.
		She's from Mississippi, and she just didn't believe any of it.
		And here in 1986, I was on a flight to Frankfurt, and she and my daughter, Jackie, are out in the garden gardening.
		And about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and Jackie looks up and she says, hey, mom, look, a UFO.
		And they look up, and here's two of them at a very low altitude, less than a quarter of a mile away.
		They were going, I live right near Nellis Air Force Base.
		They were coming from Nellis and went around to the southern part of Sunrise.
		Now, that's an extremely rare sighting tooth in the daytime.
		And it really changed her opinion.
		Of course, she says, well, I saw him, but I still don't believe him.
		But she did see him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe that was the sighting that saved John Lear's marriage.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It definitely was the sighting that saved my marriage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really can understand that, John.
		And you know where I live out here, and you know what I'm close to.
		And I see things quite frequently, John, and I'm very hesitant to talk about them.
		Frankly, I had one major sighting of an aircraft I told you about, or a craft.
		I don't know if it was an aircraft.
		But I see other things, John, in the night sky a lot.
		And now there are those who say that activity up here has lessened or gone away or been moved.
		Can you tell me anything about that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, there certainly hasn't been a good sighting in, say, two years.
		And so there's a facility in northern Nevada where they do a lot of testing.
		Now, whether they do UFO testing, I don't know.
		But there is a major facility up there.
		There's also an increased activity down at Holloman, which seems to be just the new secret aircraft we've got.
		But yeah, there definitely doesn't seem to be as much testing as there used to be.
		Just after Bob and I started Talking about this, you used to be able to go up the test site and see all kinds of weird stuff, but there just aren't any sightings anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if it is the attention that's been given up there, and there's been a lot of it.
		There's a lot of people hanging up there.
		Of course, they're trying to get more property now and isolate the area.
		And there's a kind of a government grab going on for property, as you know, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I just don't really understand what the big deal is because, like, in 1980, there was at least 30 AAOs, which are air access-only areas in the United States, at which, you know, all this weird stuff went on.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, Groom Lake is just one of a number of facilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has been a pretty intense area, though.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's been a pretty intense area, and they are, I'm sure, they're going to get the land.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm sure.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And I've heard that the testing has been severely curtailed for the past year or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until they can, until, yeah, too many cameras, too many people.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Oh, just let me get my radio here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Get your radio.
unidentified		Yeah, I've got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		KVI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KVI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're holding this for East of the Rockies.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call and the try.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Bryce in Wichita.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hi, John.
unidentified		Glad to talk to you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Hey, how are you doing?
unidentified		Good.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's been a long time since I've been in Wichita.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet it has.
unidentified		I wondered, are you familiar with the writings of Renee Gunnan or Fitzgerald Schoon?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, what's that?
unidentified		Religious writings concerning metaphysical stuff.
		How about stuff like the Tibetan Book of the Dead?
		You said you go toward the dark light instead of the light.
		Are you familiar with, have you read that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but that's an interesting thing, a dark light.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I haven't heard that before.
unidentified		Yeah, you ought to read the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
		And I would recommend people like you to get in touch with people like, say, the Dalai Lama and talk to them about this kind of stuff and see what they think.
		Well, people that are realized or that have studied mystical or metaphysical stuff that are, you know, that are in that genre.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		John, you don't seem inclined to really be pursuing this much more.
		In other words, my assessment of you psychologically is that you have reached some kind of inner conclusion.
		And stop me if I'm wrong, and you're kind of settled about it now.
		Is that right?
unidentified		Settled or fatalistic?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fatalistic.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I never in my wildest dreams, when I started getting into this, had any remotest hope of finding out as much as I did.
		And when I found out as much as I did, it was very interesting, and in one way, extremely satisfying.
		But I didn't think that I'd find out much more than I did.
		So, you know, I continued on my life.
		And like I say, there's a lot of guys that just keep plugging along.
		I know.
		But I think I found out pretty much what's going on, and so I'm continuing my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And fatalistic is the right word.
		That's kind of ominous for a lot of us, of course.
		Laugh.
		All right, on the East of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah, this is Hayard.
		This is Kevin from KCMO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KCMO, Kansas City, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to ask John a question on the time travel, deal.
		I heard that you can only go so far forward in time and so far backward in time.
		Is that true?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I think you can go both ways as long as you want.
		And to the answer of the paradox, if you go back in time and kill your father, will you still be here?
		The answer is, yes, you will still be here because time is compartmentalized.
		Okay.
		You can go back and kill your father, but you'll still be here.
unidentified		Okay.
		That's all I wanted to say.
		I was curious about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Thank you very much.
		In other words, you will affect the local.
		All time is local.
		Is that right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That sounds like a good analogy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all time is local.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You will affect the immediate sphere or time that you commit this act in, but somehow time will bend back in on itself and everything will self-correct and you'll still be there somehow.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the East of the Rockies line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was wondering, will we be able to get a tape of tonight's program?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you coming from?
unidentified		Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oklahoma City.
		Yes, indeed, you will.
		And if you'll listen, I'll tell you how to do it, all right?
unidentified		Okay, I just wondered if you would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		I'd be glad to do it.
		Sure, if you want a tape of this program, the first two hours we spent on a very careful chronicling of UFO history, John's involvement in it, and all the rest of it, you can get a tape by calling right now, Area Code 503-664-7966.
		Let me give that again.
		Area code 503-664-7966.
		And on the east of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Erie, Pennsylvania.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air?
unidentified		The FLP.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		First of all, love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad.
		Outstanding.
		Glad you're enjoying it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		For Mr. Lear, I have a couple questions.
unidentified		First of all, are you familiar with Guardian?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You are?
unidentified		Guardian is legitimate?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
unidentified		Okay, you're a family.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I know he's a bachelor.
		I know that he's a good researcher.
		You know, I'm sure he's not faking all this.
		But, you know, other than that, yes, I am familiar with the case.
unidentified		Okay.
		Second of all, boy, I've been trying to get you all night.
		I'm kind of nervous now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, relax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just try to remember what you wanted to ask.
unidentified		I'm trying.
unidentified		Second of all, without getting very in-depth at all about religion, because I know that's a touchy subject, but do these civilizations, alleged civilizations, do they purport to be religious the way we're talking about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a reasonable question, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, do these beings themselves have a religious faith that we are aware of?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, in answer to your question, let me tell you what Whitley Stryber said about that when he was abducted, and he's absolutely, horrendously terrified, and he's screaming, and he's saying, oh, God, oh, God, help me, God, God, please help me.
		And the little grays are looking down, and very coolly they've said, why do you call for your God?
		There's only us up here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That will certainly serve as an answer, no question about it.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Art, this is Jim in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		St. Louis, yes.
unidentified		Mr. Lear, I want to thank you on behalf of everyone listening for coming on the show.
		Thoroughly entertaining.
		Well, thank you.
		You seem to be hitting everything right on.
		For people that call up, they've read a book or they are real religious.
		They obviously haven't been following some of the stuff covered on this show.
		The cover-up, the military involvement, politics, everything.
		You seem to be right on.
		I respect the fact that you don't want to go into the religion aspect because I've read a little bit, I think, of what you've outlined there in a couple of different books.
		But again, the astronauts, the whole thing of keeping quiet.
		People can't understand why the mill, why aren't they talking about this?
		And that this stuff really is happening.
		I'm getting announcements on our station here in KSD that say this is a warning.
		This is not the views of this station.
		It is shocking.
		It's very shocking.
		A lot of this is.
		Except my religious beliefs are simply I believe above all else, above anything else, that there is the God, God, the creator of all things.
		And why can these things be happening?
		God takes care of other elements of nature in accordance with the plan.
		Why can this not be somewhat along an overall plan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the plan, in other words, yeah.
		Yeah, okay.
		All right, sir.
unidentified		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen to the answer.
		Go ahead, John.
		what the question well the question was really he walked around at six ways from sunday but he's asking why you can't uh...
		there be of the god we all know and not we all know but many of us think is there uh...
		who's in control and who's just I'm not properly asking.
		In other words, why do God and UFOs and the aliens have to be mutually exclusive?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They don't, but let me tell you a story that Bob Lazar told me once.
		We're talking about the universe and the ramifications of it all, and he's telling me about the theory that the universe expands until it can't go any further, and then it starts contracting.
		And time reverses, and everything comes down to its original size, less than an atom size, and then starts spreading out the other direction, whereas things only exist that travel faster than speed of light.
		And so we came to the conclusion, now, whoever made that, that's God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whoever made that, that's God.
		Okay, well, I hope that serves as an answer to his question.
		You're on the air coast to coast AM with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Calling from Youngstown, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Youngstown, yes, sir.
unidentified		I have a copy of a videotape by Bob Lazar.
unidentified		I was wondering if Mr. Lear was familiar with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he sure is.
unidentified		And I was wondering if he could give us some comments about the other two areas of S4 that Mr. Lazar talks about, about the physics of time travel and the charged particle beams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've only got about a minute, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you do it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure whether it areas he's talking about.
		Yes, that they had both of those things there.
		Once, you know, I told you the stories where the hangar door was open.
		He walked into the craft to do some work.
		He was in there about two hours.
		And when he came out, it was exactly the same time as before he went in.
		And when he asked what the explanation was that, they said because the saucer's time shifted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We'll have to hold it there from Youngstown, Ohio.
		Thank you.
		John, we'll be right back to you.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Relax for a few minutes.
		You're listening to Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network.
		If this kind of information disturbs you, and it does many, reach over and turn your radio off.
		For everybody else, there will be more.
unidentified		For everybody else, there will be more.
		Bye.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine.
		Colle free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		And for the next 30 minutes, 30 minutes more, we're still going to restrict the toll-free line To east of the Rockies.
		We're going to give it another 30 minutes because of the length of the pre-interview before we got to the phone call.
		So 30 more minutes east of the Rockies on the 800 line.
unidentified		The Rockies on the 800 line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		John Lear is my guest pilot, experienced pilot, many thousands and thousands of hours in the air, and believer in IFOs, identified flying objects.
		John's coming back right now.
		John, there is a way people can get the videotape that the caller mentioned about Bob Lazar's experiences and his explanation of what these craft are and how they work.
		It is very educational.
		How do they get it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The right to Tri-Dot Corporation.
		Now, write the address down because there is no telephone number.
		If you call Las Vegas and ask for information, there is no telephone number.
		It's Tri-Dot, T-R-I-D-O-T, Tri-Dot Corporation, 1324 Southeastern.
		And that's in Las Vegas, Nevada, 89104.
		And it's $29.95.
		That's $29.95 plus $3 shipping and handling.
		And what you get is a 40-minute tape.
		It's called the Lazar Tape and Excerpts of the GovernmentGot Bible, which is a chronological account of government UFO activity details and Bob's experience working with recovered flying saucers for the Department of Naval Intelligence.
		It explains the propulsion, construction, and details of where the aliens are from, including what Dr. Keller has to say about Bob Lazar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		That's how to get it, everybody.
		And we'll repeat that address downline here somewhere.
		On our toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Memphis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Memphis, Tennessee, all right?
unidentified		Yes.
		Mr. Lear, it's a pleasure to speak with you.
		Thank you.
		On discussion of after-death experiences, would you please reconsider and go toward the bright light, the white light, not the dark?
		Sure.
		There's another body of work known as the Egyptian Book of the Dead, other Tibetan.
		And please research that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'd like to say something about the Bible, one of the most important books in the history of mankind.
		The New Testament, like much of the Old Testament, is in many places a greatly altered version of the original accounts on which it is based.
		In addition, probably less than 5% of all that Jesus and his original followers taught is found in the Bible.
		Many of these changes and deletions to the New Testament were made by special church councils.
		The editing process began as early as 325 A.D. during the First Council of Micaiah and continued well into the 12th century.
		For example, the Second Synod Church Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D. deleted from the Bible Jesus' reference to reincarnation, an important concept.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I just wanted to be sure that I got that on, about the bright light, not the dark light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, why the dark light?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Why going there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, because according to Whitley, if you go to the bright light, you have made a conscious choice of which direction to go.
		And supposedly, according to him, at that point, if you go to the white light, the graves or whoever's in charge of this thing can decide what to do with you.
		Now, they can either send you back into another body or they can put you in the black box.
		Now, the reason that I wouldn't choose the white light is I don't want to spend what Whitley says is anywhere from 12 to 40,000 years in the black box.
		He was in there, and he says it's a very frightening experience.
		Now, I don't mind being by myself.
		I could probably spend a couple years by myself, but I'm not sure whether I could spend 40,000 years.
		Whereas if you go towards the dark, you come right back into a terrestrial body, and you can continue on with whatever body you got into.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Dear John and Art, this comes from Santa Barbara.
		Do you think there are any off-planet guys who are trying to help rescue us from this prison?
		Any hope for the future?
		Annie, Santa Barbara?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Possibly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Possibly.
		All right.
		Tantalizingly, just possible.
		Also, this question, John, the Philadelphia experiment.
		Do you believe it really happened?
		Is there any connection between it and the UFOs?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, obviously something happened during the Philadelphia experiment.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Now, whether that boat actually disappeared or not, I don't know, but there's enough evidence that something very, very strange happened during that time due to the government's research into magnetism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and one more facts.
		This is from Lawrenceville, Georgia.
		Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO.
		He was given a top-secret clearance.
		Thus, he was shut down when he became president.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he filed his report in 1969 when he ran for president.
		One of his platforms was, I believe in UFOs because I personally see one, and if I am elected president, I will see that all information about UFOs is turned over to the public.
		Naturally, when he became president, we didn't hear one word, and that's because the presidents are briefed to a certain extent on the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On our toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Yes, I'm in Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Yes.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		I was listening to your comment about Delta.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Delta forces, yes.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I believe some of the things you say, but I think you might have your units wrong.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		What?
		How did I have one?
unidentified		For one thing, I don't think 66 people were killed from Delta.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		How many people?
unidentified		I don't believe anyone was killed from Delta.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		But there would have been...
unidentified		yeah, I would say so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would you say it is, Color?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What what group was it?
unidentified		Uh that I don't know, but they come out of the Delta community.
		Um it would just be noticed right here in Fort Brad.
		There's too many people.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Now he's he's uh he may be partially right because uh uh he obviously uh was in the community, but there are certain parts of Delta which are unknown to other parts.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So it's possible that you're correct and that it was just a secret, very secret portion of Delta Court.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you, caller.
		John, from the state of Washington, is there any possibility that some of these aliens could come from beneath the Earth instead of from outer space?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, most definitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you give much credence to the dimensional theories, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I didn't used to, but there seems to be a body of evidence now that there is some kind of extra-dimensional creatures appearing here and there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You're on the air coast to coast a.m. with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Kansas City, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I just got a question.
		Is Mr. Lear ever read anything?
		The Betty Andreessen story and her beliefs?
		It kind of pertains to the religious aspect?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I read both books.
		And, you know, what more can I say?
		She definitely is very religious, and she had a very religious experience during her abduction.
		I think that whoever they are who pick us up catered to those specific beliefs.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, that was basically my question.
		I didn't know if your beliefs followed along those lines because they were sort of similar to the lights and putting people back in the bodies and that sort of thing.
		And I was just curious if you knew about that and if you had any thoughts on it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's been some time since I read the Edration Affair, but she did have a very interesting experience.
unidentified		Right.
		Yeah, I read the newest one, The Watch.
		It's called Watchers by Ray Fowler, and it was pretty interesting.
		I'd recommend it to anybody out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to be interviewing Ray Fowler again pretty soon on Dreamland, incidentally, Colin.
unidentified		Oh, that'd be really great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		We've had him before, and I was neglectful.
		Let me do this now.
		We have a new affiliate beginning this morning.
		It is KKARAM in Omaha, Nebraska.
		So I would like to officially welcome Omaha, Nebraska to the network.
		And let's keep moving here.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Art.
unidentified		Bob in Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, go ahead.
unidentified		And in 1952, I read a book by a man named Guzzev called All in Everything.
		And there he talked about the spaceship Karna going all over the place.
		Then I went to Europe to work with a Guzzov group.
		But in 1955, we weren't on the air with commercial television in London.
		And we had a couple there, and I can't remember their name.
		But we had a half-hour show, and the man who was interviewing them was really trying to break them down that they were ponies, which he couldn't, of course.
		After that, I invited them home.
		We went to dinner, went to my place, and we talked about Guzjev in his book.
		And these people were very authentic.
		And I do remember the name.
		They were a married couple.
		And we went to a few of the group meetings in London then.
		This was back in 1955, 56.
		And these were all what I call good, wholesome people, not phony, baloney type people.
		And of course, I lost touch with them then.
		But I wonder if he's familiar, Johnny, you're familiar with Gurdjieff's book, All in Everything?
		Where he talks about Karnik, the good chip Karnik, I'm not catching the last name.
		With Gurdjieff, man named Gurdjieff.
		He has groups that are working.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say the name slowly, Bob.
unidentified		Gurdjieff, G-U-R-D-J-I-E-F-F.
		Georgius Ivanovich Gurdjieff.
		And he wrote the book way back in the 40s called All in Everything.
		And as I said, then subsequently when I was with this couple in London, and I don't remember their name, but I remember going to several groups, and this was back in the 50s.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I vaguely remember that book, but I don't know enough about it to make any comment on it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But he talked way back then about spaceships.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right, Bob.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		We appreciate it.
		I guess not enough knowledge to really be commenting about it.
		You're on the air coast to coast AM with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you coming from, please?
unidentified		This is Tim from KST in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		How are you doing?
		I want to know if you could tell me anything more about the alien picture, and could you tell Mr. Lear about that experience that you had?
		And could you possibly tell me the internet number and how I could get that off the internet when you finally do send that up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I will.
		Thank you.
		Yeah, he's right.
		John, I have a young man who has what he believes is an alien creature, the body of an alien creature, which is now dried.
		It's pretty good size.
		It's very hard to describe, John.
		I've got very good 35mm photographs of it, and I've got a videotape of it as well.
		I'm getting them scanned and put up on the Internet probably by the middle of next week.
		The thing looks...
		It's pretty good size.
		It's a couple of feet tall, two or three feet tall, and it is very, very weird.
		Now, without seeing it, it would be impossible for you to comment, but it supposedly came from Puerto Rico, where there's been quite a bit of UFO activity, hasn't there?
		Yeah, yeah.
		And so I will show you that photograph when I get a chance, John, and then you'll be able to comment.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, interesting.
unidentified		I'd like to see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		It's just something I'm working on right now.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is John from Kansas City, Missouri.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, John.
unidentified		Well, basically, what I was calling about is just to throw out another theory here, as these things do happen, is essentially, you know, like, first off, I don't really buy that some alien creatures are really buying, using people as food because a simple fact would be easier to kidnap a group of people to and then breed them as cattle, would it not?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about are we being bred as cattle?
unidentified		Who knows?
		Maybe we are.
		Well, anyways, some of the other things, like you said, like when they encountered them in Cambodia and the special forces had a firefight with them, it would be a very good place to collect human bodies to study the anatomy because you wouldn't have to worry about taking them and then probably bringing them back and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
unidentified		Yeah.
		And truthfully, why are they so interested in this place?
		I mean, truthfully, we're in the neck of the wood, so to speak, in our galaxy, and what is so interesting for us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why us is the question, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Why what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why us?
		Why are they interested in us?
		I could almost answer that.
		I mean, when you look at the Earth, it's a hustle and bustle of activity and growth and beings and intelligence, and it's a contrast to everything around it, right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, my opinion is, it's not that they came here looking down and say, oh, yeah, that's a neat place.
		Let's go down and visit.
		I think they created the whole thing, and that's their interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they have an intense interest in following their handiwork.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, their handiwork being the breeding of the human race over 200,000 years in which they made 65 separate corrections to make us what we are today, which they refer to as containers.
		You know, I doubt if the experiment is over.
		I think that it's continuing on.
		Each of these separate corrections, they have to, you know, when they bring in the new model, they have to recall the old model.
		And they do that with mass plagues, floods, gyroscopic precessions of the Earth, which I might mention, all this EPA and BLM and stuff about, you know, carefully burying our trash.
		You know, every 23,000 years, this Earth rotates on its axis and takes up a different rotation, and it essentially cleans everything out.
		So why are we so worried?
		We're about 1,000 years overdue for this rotation.
		So why are we worried about all this trash?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about a polar reverse?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just rotated because it used to take me seven minutes to drive to the dump, but now it takes three hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time for the big cleaning.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's all going to be done for us.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		We don't have to worry about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Calling from Bakersfield, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're holding this for East of the Rockies, sir, for about five more minutes.
		Thank you very much for the call, though.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Wonderful show.
		Sunshine here.
		I think that was Betty and Barney Hill, wasn't it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, he said 1955.
unidentified		Oh, well, I didn't know when their book came out, Betty and Barney Hill.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was after 63.
unidentified		Oh, I see.
		Okay, my mistake.
		But anyway, they did allude to the time travel too, or the time span too, I believe, didn't they?
		I mean, they were in there for some time, and yet when they came out, it was lost to them.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they had that same experience.
unidentified		Yeah, wonderful show.
unidentified		Thanks for having us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thanks for making the call, and good morning.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
		That was it, I guess, John.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, I'm calling from near Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Actually east of the mountains, about 500 feet from the Monzano test range.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
unidentified		Sandia Bay.
		I had a sighting here about two years ago in Bay.
		Since then, I've talked to three of my neighbors who have had similar sightings, a retired school teacher and a real estate agent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not having some of that famous New Mexico Towels hum right now, are you?
unidentified		No, I do hear strange noises once in a while, and they sound like a diesel truck in the distance or machinery clanging around, but some of it I think I'm hearing construction going on on the base.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Now, was your sightings within the Montzana weapons storage area, Coyote Canyon?
unidentified		Well, I was on the highway driving home, and this was a large orange-glowing sphere that went over my car, and it was heading due south into that area.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, there's been a lot of reports.
		As a matter of fact, when I first got into this, Paul Benowitz had just lived in the Four Hills section there, and he set up in 1980 a videotape which ran 24 hours a day.
		He'd change it every eight hours, and he got some spectacular photos of dome-shaped objects taking off from the Montbeno-up and storage area.
unidentified		Well, I sometimes wonder if they're saying that there's less action going on up in Nevada.
unidentified		Maybe some of it's moved here.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Either they or Holloman.
unidentified		I've also got two acquaintances.
		They don't know each other, but they have told me that they were involved.
		One worked for the contractor, and the other worked for somebody in the architectural design firm that built all these underground bunkers back in the early 80s out there.
		And they said that these bunkers were as big as football fields, solid concrete, they were huge, and of course nobody knew what they were being built for.
		No runways.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I had a friend that went in one of those things, and he says that there was nothing in there, but he said it was absolutely enormous.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		But there was nothing in there at the time he went in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Caller, thanks.
unidentified		Can I ask one more question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very quickly.
unidentified		Do you think that anything will come of this Roswell investigation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And yes, Representative Schiff, of course, is off and running on the investigation, as you know, John.
		Yeah.
		Do you think anything will come of it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Zero?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, because it's a cover-up.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They're not going to let some congressman go in there and find out what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I suppose at the levels all this moves, a congressperson is not much.
		All right, John, I'd like you to hold on.
		We've got a break here at the bottom of the hour, so relax for a few minutes.
		We'll be back to you.
		My guest is John Lear, pilot, airline captain, and believer in IFOs, identified flying objects.
		That's the nature of the discussion this morning.
		It may disturb you.
		If it does, turn it off.
		If you want a copy of the entire program, you can call beginning right now, area code 503-664-7966.
unidentified		www.fema.org
		From the Kingdom of Night, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the CBC Radio Network.
		Now, once again, here's Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, and I want to repeat, we spent the first two hours of the program, if you didn't get it, doing a pretty thorough examination of the history of UFOs and the beginning of John's involvement.
		And if you want a copy of this program, the way to get it, get your pencil, please, is to call area code 503-664-7966.
		503-664-7966.
		Now, once again, back to John Lear.
		John, are you there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lots of people want to talk to you, so back to the phones.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KWN, go right ahead.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, ma'am.
unidentified		It's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and go ahead.
unidentified		Mr. Lear?
		Yes.
		A few callers back, a lady called asking you about the Bible, and you told her something that Jesus said about reincarnation.
		What did he say about that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		He believed in it, and he tried to tell us that it was true, but it was taken out of the Bible by these council of churches.
unidentified		He did believe in it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		Really?
		Really?
		However, it was taken out.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it sure was.
unidentified		If I told that to somebody, how could I prove it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You could get the Bill Bramley's book, The Gods of Eden.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I think he discusses it in there.
unidentified		What's the name of the book?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The Gods of Eden.
unidentified		The Gods of Eden.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		He goes into it at great length.
unidentified		And what is that author's name again?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Bramley.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		B-R-A-M-L-E-Y, I think.
unidentified		Can I get that in a bookstore, I wonder?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I think you can order it in a bookstore, yeah.
unidentified		Well, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call, ma'am.
		Have a good morning.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Radio Free America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Lear, I believe in the Bible and like to talk to you about the nephilum and how that could correlate into these things that you and Art have been describing and also the fact that Linda Howe reported on these cattle mutilations that maggots on flies wouldn't touch the carcasses for days.
		Now that's something that seems a bit unnatural to me.
		And I'd like to ask you, throughout the Bible, there is a conflict of good and evil.
		And these things that you guys are describing do not sound very good to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not warm and fuzzy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They would not be my idea of warm and fuzzy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, why do you think so many people, so many ufologists and people in the various associated fields want to present them always as warm and fuzzy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I think that because we couldn't imagine an advanced society not being warm and fuzzy.
		We figure, well, shoot, you know, after all that civilization thousands of years ahead of us, they certainly must have worked out their problems and just want to come down and help us and cure cancer and AIDS and help us get to, you know, cure our food problem and all the rest of it.
		I mean, certainly reinforced by Steven Spielberg and his close encounters and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it is true.
		John, a few quick ones for you by facts from Alaska.
		A quick question for John, a paraphrase.
		The sheep know the voice of their master.
		Will we know?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I don't know enough about it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I know that's a quote, but I just can't put it together in time to give a decent answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can wonder, though, or I can, I guess, try and help him out here.
		The sheep, us, know the voice of their master.
		Will we know when that voice comes that they are our master?
		I guess is the question.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No comment.
unidentified		No comment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, if it's not too late in the show, could you ask John about my guess concerning cattle mutilations?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remember, I guessed the mutilations were to garner the components of a medium used to proliferate recombinant DNA research.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, yeah, that's speculation, what it's all about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dear John, since 1988, that year to the present, around, round balls of light have been hovering above my house day and night.
		This is not a hoax.
		I've been videotaping these round balls of light during the night hours hovering above my house within only a half block at the very most.
		Since 1989, I've been videotaping them, and I've got these videotapes.
		What would you suggest somebody with evidence of this sort does?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		There's not much you can do.
unidentified		Who's going to listen to you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I know a few people that have that phenomenon over there, and I don't know what they are, but they are.
		But they are.
		They certainly are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is John implying that the God of our Bible was created by aliens?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You're not going to get me into that now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		We'll just drop that one and go back to the phones.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Art in Spokane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
unidentified		And I wanted to ask John what he thought of the possibility that the deaths at Dulcie were somehow related to the introduction or the further introduction of the AIDS virus into population, and also what his feelings are about the government being somehow involved in the development of the AIDS virus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, yeah, AIDS, what do you think about AIDS?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I've said before, there's no question in my mind that the government developed it.
		The specific doctor, the Navy doctor that actually did the research, I believe his name was R.M. Donner.
		And, yeah, we made it.
		What it was for, I don't know.
		Some people say it was to eliminate or decrease the population, but certainly there ought to be better ways to do it because AIDS takes a long time to effect, and also it causes a lot of suffering.
		I think our hospitals would be overtaxed before it would start reducing the population.
		So when people say, well, it's just the government trying to reduce the population, possibly, but you think even they would be able to figure out a quicker way to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know that there was congressional testimony.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's on the record, John, an inquiry of some scientists about whether such a thing could be created that would produce or suppress the human immune system.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've got a copy of that, and that's what they got their initial $10 million funding to create that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that much is at least on the record.
		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm KOGO, San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
unidentified		John, I had some questions about one of the guests you had on earlier wrote the Montauk books, Preston Nichols.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Preston Nichols.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had him on the program, yes.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And I wondered if your guests could make any references to some of the things he said in his books, like the alien treaties or things like that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I didn't follow the Montauk books too closely.
		I did listen to Preston Nichols several times.
		All I can say is specifically, yes, there is an alien treaty.
		But other than that, unless you have a more specific question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I guess he just wanted a general reference, whether you were familiar with it, whether you agreed with it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we certainly do have a treaty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, one more stab at this, John.
		This comes from Veronica in Wichita.
		I'm a Christian, but not so arrogant a Christian to believe that we are the only form of life God created.
		As the Bible says, in my father's house there are many mansions.
		Were it not so, wouldn't he have told us?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, somebody had to create everybody, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody did it.
		Some entity, some something did it.
		I think most of us believe that a power far greater than ourselves had something to do with this.
		It's just too complex.
		All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Okay, hi, good morning.
		I'd like to say that just out of common sense, and it's one entity and stuff like that, there probably is, even if there is one entity, I'm not saying there probably is, but even if there is, and I go through life and have to go see Human Judgment Day, I'm going to appeal to a higher court because he's got peers.
		I mean, it would have to be that.
		But anyway, on this time travel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
		Time travel, the way you're looking at it, I think time travel back in the past, there's no way.
		You can see time from back in the past, but you'll never be able to travel it.
		You'll only see the light from it.
		And as far as in the future, you might be able to do that too, but you'll never be able to come back to your own time.
		Just on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, Juan, what are you basing these comments?
unidentified		Well, it's just like, okay, let's say the extraterrestrials.
unidentified		Okay, you'd be a fool to think that we're the only ones in the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are switching topics, aren't you?
unidentified		I'm going to explain that by this.
		Okay, it's like planets and other galaxies, we can look at them right now, and what we're looking at isn't right now.
		It's time from way back when.
		We're looking at light from way back when.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
unidentified		So there may be inhabitants on what we're seeing.
		And we just, you know, the only way we're ever going to know is to be able to travel faster and speed of light.
		That's the only way we'll ever know.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Which certainly can be done very easily if you have the technology.
		But I'll have to disagree with you on time travel.
		You can certainly go forward in time and you can come back.
unidentified		Well, I'm sure you can go forward, but I doubt very seriously you'll be able to come back.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, okay, well, we disagree on that.
unidentified		It's just on common sense, though.
unidentified		I mean, I don't understand how you think you can come back to a time that you can go forward unless you're talking about this gravitational thing where you hold off and you're just thinking you go forward in time and you're never leaving the time that you're letting your time stand still while you're gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Everett, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everett, all right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		John, when I get my time machine, I'll come and pick you up and we'll take a ride.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think, John, in your life that you will do that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do not?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is that such a quick no?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you had a chance, an opportunity, with Bob Lazar and others and lots of funding, would you endeavor to do it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I think with lots of funding.
		No, there's very complex machinery.
		I don't think it can be done.
		I'm 52.
		I'm going to retire here at 60, and I hope to have, you know, maybe a couple of years of tending my lawn.
		But certainly there's nothing I want to go back and see or go forward.
		It's an interesting concept.
		It certainly can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning, Art Cliff in Glenville, Arizona, KFYA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was wondering if John might have privileged information that might give us a clue to our future.
unidentified		Have we been told anything that might tell us where we're headed?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I will tell you this, that in my brief career as a ufologist, I've state several predictions, two or three of them, and they've all turned out false.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So I may be a good researcher, but I'm a terrible prophet.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John.
		All right.
		Thank you very much from Arizona and, of course, KFYI.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Oh, this is fantastic.
unidentified		John, I'm an old fighter pilot from Korea, and we used to fly the old F-86s.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, my favorite one, Ease?
unidentified		Demile?
		Okay.
		They were Pratt Whitney and we knew the Rolls-Royce engine.
		Yeah.
		And the only time I ever got involved with your company was when I bought my own jet, and it was a Lear jet.
		Anyway, we had a flame out at about 35,000 feet one time coming over Kansas City.
		No, I think it was Cincinnati.
		And my pilot came back, and we got up there, and we said we had to break it down to 25,000 feet.
		And we kicked her up again, and she flew like a real trooper.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, interesting.
unidentified		Oh, interesting as hell, yeah.
unidentified		Anyway, the reason I wanted to call and get my, I'm calling from San Diego, the home of the tail hook maniacs.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		We're all a bunch of cowboys out here.
		But some of us are really curious about things.
		And do you know about Thorne?
		Rip Thorne?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, which one is that?
unidentified		Well, he's a physicist, a cosmologist out here.
		And we were wondering about what the heck is going on.
		We've built the, we were involved in the accelerator up there at Stanford.
		Yeah.
		Yeah, and we took a whack at things.
		And, my God, I've got a million things to tell you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're right in the middle of the action down there in San Diego because that's where the Navy has a lot of their operations.
		And I could tell you some real weird stories about stuff that goes on down there.
		But you are right in the center of operations.
		I doubt if you could ever penetrate it, but if you could, you'd see a lot of real interesting stuff.
unidentified		Well, here's what we got.
		We're looking at times 10 to the minus 33rd, and we're looking at, instead of black holes, we're looking at wormholes.
		And this is a concept that Thornton has been preaching for about 10 years, and of course I think he's a wacko.
		And it's a viable concept.
		A wormhole.
		And you know that we've got a black hole in our vicinity.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Supposedly every galaxy has its own black hole.
		And as far as wormholes, I don't think that's how it works.
		But go ahead.
unidentified		Well, it has to do with the space-time continuum.
		And I listened to Thorne.
		Of course, Thorne's an old buddy of mine.
		And at first, it's inconceivable.
		If you look at the space-time continuum, it is a viable concept.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that what he's trying to do is figure out how they can get from place to place without violating the speed of light.
		And because they don't have access to the real information of how it works, they invent stuff like wormholes.
		But the way it works is called the instantaneous propagation of gravity.
		Science doesn't know it yet, but gravity is instantaneous, and there's two forms of it, A and B. And basically, to travel hundreds of times faster than the speed of light, what you do is generate a very powerful beam of gravity and pull space towards you.
		Space is actually a fabric.
		It can be pulled this way and that.
unidentified		We think of it as a nothing.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		We think it is something that has just one hydrogen atom per square meter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, in a sense then, you're not really traveling through the space to get from A to B. You are jumping across an area.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		You are pulling space towards you and coalescing or uniting with space that's maybe hundreds of light years away.
		But that's why they invent wormholes, because they know that it can be done.
		They're just trying to figure out a way that it can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I know the concept of a black hole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the difference between a black hole and a wormhole, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, a black hole is just a very intense collapsed star which is not letting any light.
		It is so dense that it doesn't let light go through it.
		Wormhole is a completely different thing.
		Wormhole is what they're speculating is how to get from point A to point B very fast without violating the principle of the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe it can be violated?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I don't mean by the method you just described, but I mean in actual speed travel.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think you can go faster than the speed of light in a linear direction.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You have to do it some other way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Oh, good morning.
		All right.
		Good morning, John.
		You know, listening to you today, I'm Susan from Moscow Mills.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Moscow Mills, where?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Idol.
unidentified		Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Missouri, all right.
unidentified		KSD, yes.
		yes.
		You know, in the fear that some people have of what John is talking about, they must understand that whatever experience that we have as humans or humanoids or whatever, it's a very good experience.
		And obviously, whoever and whatever has created us, and whatever use that we have for them, we have use for ourselves too.
		And that there's such, I mean, there's so much love and joy in life, opposed to the diversity, which there's plenty of that too.
		But the mind has to, the mind that was given to us and the spirituality that we have needs to be used.
		And I think that's what he's talking about when he says, go on and live your life, even though you have more information.
		That's right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You get to do what you want.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You get to make your life and have fun and do whatever you want.
unidentified		Right.
		Can you tell me if there's in the other dimensions of what you're talking about in the 70 or so groups, do they show any sign of their own spirituality?
		I'm not talking about religion here at all, but of a separate spirituality or a more intense spirituality or just different?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't have an answer to that.
unidentified		Okay, well, thanks a lot.
unidentified		Thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call, and it'll have to be fast, but we'll do one more here.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, hello.
unidentified		I was wondering if Mr. Lear has ever read people such as Charles Ford and H. V. Lovecraft and people like that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, what's the name?
unidentified		Charles Ford.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Charles Ford and Lovecraft?
unidentified		Yeah.
		No.
		Oh, what are you doing?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Charles Ford?
unidentified		Charles Ford, yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've read a lot of his stuff.
unidentified		Yeah, that's what I meant.
unidentified		It just seems that when you talked about, and one thing that I'd like you to expound upon a little bit is when you refer to that somehow humans were considered to be containers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vessels, even.
		I've heard that word.
		Where are you calling from, man?
unidentified		I'm in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Francisco.
		All right.
		John, you've said it before.
		Vessels, containers for the soul?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're speculating for the soul.
		It wasn't described in the documents that Bob read exactly what we were containers of.
		We could be containers of hormones, enzymes, or whatever.
		My own speculation is that we are containers of soul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it's a good one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I hope we do contain souls.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You can never destroy the soul.
		It goes on forever and ever and ever.
		And some people are able to recall past experiences, but most people are not.
		You're not supposed to be able to recall.
		But in fact, the soul goes on forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On that note, vessels, all of you, containers, we are going to have to pause for Mortal News at the top of the hour.
		We'll be back with John Lear and more from the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		CBC Radio Network
		From the Kingdom of Nye, you're hearing Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		Much more than just a talk show.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is, and I thought a bit of the Dreamland theme might be appropriate.
		We do that show Sunday evenings, 7 to 10.
		Topics, always just like this.
		One of these days we're going to snag John for Dreamland as well.
		John Lear is my guest, pilot, IFO investigator in sort of semi-retirement now.
		Back to him in a moment.
unidentified		Back to him.
unidentified		Back to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John Lear is my guest.
		Back now to John and your questions.
		John, are you there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yep, right here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, ByFax from Portland, Oregon, Sylvia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please ask your guest, who does the briefing of presidents when they come into office on the supposed national security aspects of IFOs?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Would be MJ-12.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		MJ-12, which still operates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who's been making the decisions over the years on the continuity of our government's policy toward IFOs?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		MJ-12.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who decides what the president should know?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		MJ-12.
		And to elaborate on that, within the MJ-12 intelligence community, there's a great disdain for elected and appointed officials, which is why the President or the Congress or any other appointed officials don't know very much.
		Security clearances work like this.
		The lowest security clearance you can get is top secret.
		Above that, there's 28 levels of which is called top secret crypto, and they run through 1 through 28, 28 being the highest.
		Above that, there's 10 names, like Umbra, Amber, Ultra, the top being Majestic.
		Now, the President of the United States has a clearance about top secret crypto of 17.
		He doesn't know very much.
		He doesn't need to know very much.
		He's kind of a figurehead.
		So they tell him, you know, a little bit.
		They tell him probably that there's recovered vehicles and that they maybe have a dead body or so, but he doesn't know the whole story.
		He doesn't need to know the whole story to perform his job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		John, this, and then we'll go back to the phones from San Clemente, California.
		Art, I heard that a nuclear explosion can actually destroy a soul.
		And I heard Mark McCandlish say there is a death ray that can eliminate the soul.
		Does John know if the soul can die or be destroyed?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, it's my understanding that it can't.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That it cannot.
		All right.
		I suppose a nuke would shake it up, at least.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm calling from Medford, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Medford, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's your question?
unidentified		I know quite a bit about the UFO subject, and I've taken note of the fact that these beings seem to be quite interested in the human soul.
		I think Whitley Schriber said that he doesn't believe that any human being on Earth really knows what these beings are and what they really represent.
		Also, for your information, you know when a moth goes to the light, you can grab it, and it makes it easier to grab and do whatever you want with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you like that analogy, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That sounds good to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The moths go toward the light, huh?
		And they're grabbed or they fry themselves.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Mike from Kent C on KCMO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Mike.
unidentified		Hi.
		I have a few problems with some things you said, Mr. Lear.
		Scientific, but I want to address the biblical issue first.
		You indicated that the Bible had been changed at the time of Constantine, is that correct?
		Right.
		Are you aware that the patriarchs in the early part of the second century in their letters and apologetics had already included almost all the verses of the New Testament in their letters?
		This is more than a hundred years before Constantine.
		And so that we can find almost all the New Testament just in their letters of writing to each other in the apologetics.
		And that there has been a copy of the whole book of Mark found in Egypt, dated at the 125 after Christ, after A.D. And when they calculate how long it would have taken to get that deep into Egypt, it would have existed before the turn of the century.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now the changes that I'm talking about are 325 A.D. during the first council of Nicaea.
unidentified		I know the date, and I'm saying that almost the complete New Testament is already found in the writings of what we call the patriarchs, some of them which were disciples of John, in the first part of the second century.
		And so if we already have the New Testament in letters written back and forth, plus we have a whole book of Mark found in around 120, our Gallagher's date of 125 A.D., then you have even secular historians agreeing that Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke in the Acts, is a first-rate historian and had to have been there.
		And so I'm wondering where you come up with this conclusion.
		I've heard this theory before and questioned people about it, and they insist on it.
		But then when you present them with the fact that the New Testament can be recovered from documents before the time they say they were changed, they just kind of go on and don't discuss it anymore.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, they may be recovered, but they're not in the King James Version.
unidentified		Well, that has nothing to do with the reliability.
		When you do textual analysis, it's not based on when the King James is written.
		It's based on the number of manuscripts and how old they are and how much they change over a period of time.
		Even for the Old Testament, we even have the Dead Sea Scrolls, a good part of the book of Isaiah recovered that we find has changed very little with what we have today.
		I'm just saying your conclusions, you say you do careful research, and apparently you didn't know that the New Testament was known and can be found in manuscripts older than before Constantine was ever born.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm just saying that they didn't make it to the King James Version and most people have access to it.
unidentified		So these manuscripts still exist and we can compare them to the King James Version.
		Now, as for science, I'm always upset when people talk about science, but ignore the fact that when they start talking about things that are supernatural, they still include it science.
		And I'm going to give you one example.
		When you talk about time travel, one of our most basic laws is conservation of energy and matter.
		Now, if someone comes from another time into this time dimension and brings their matter with them, they have added matter and broken the law of conservation of energy and matter.
		By definition, when something breaks our natural laws, we call it supernatural.
		But everybody seems to want to bring it under the umbrella of science instead of call it what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is what?
unidentified		Okay, so we're supernatural.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So where are we wrong here?
unidentified		Excuse me?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Where are we wrong?
unidentified		Where are you wrong?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you just said that.
unidentified		Well, I admit you're dealing with the supernatural.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That I'm dealing with a supernatural?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I guess it's a semantic argument.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He wants it called the supernatural instead of science.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sounds good to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		On the toll-free line, good morning.
		You're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Yeah, the heartbeat sound in the ocean is government work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's gone?
unidentified		It's government work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's government work.
unidentified		I'll explain that in a second, but I just want to say something to John Lear.
		John, everyone around here said he worked for Air America, and I don't want to go into that.
		About the sonar sound, three sentences.
		Thanks to Congressman Sam Farr, a sonar device that might have threatened the environment has been indefinitely delayed.
		The Scripps Institute of Oceanography and the Defense Department's Advanced Research Projects Agency have stopped the project's development in order to conduct an EIS.
		The $35 million device, part of the Acoustic Thermometry of Ocean Climate ATOC program, would be placed off the coast of Point Sur in the Monterey National Marine Sanctuary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I'm aware of the fact that they have plans, but it hasn't been done yet.
unidentified		Wait, the device relies on the transmission of sonar bursts, blah, blah, blah.
		Well, I've heard the thing over the radio, and that sounds like a heartbeat.
		It goes boom, badoom, boom, badoom, boom, badoom.
		Well, Sam Farr, the congressman, thinks he stopped it.
		Well, 20 miles north of where they were going to place it, a couple of divers heard exactly the same thing.
		They just went on with it.
		It's a big deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks.
		Well, again, I say, as far as I know, they have not yet begun that project.
		It's been halted, and so I have great doubts that that's what they're hearing.
		But time will tell.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Well, Mr. Lear, Your aviation credentials are certainly impeccable, to say the least.
		But like the previous scholar said, your science discussion is kind of strange, to say the least.
		It doesn't seem to hold a lot of water with any present scientific theory.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, just tell me specifically where I went wrong.
unidentified		Well, the discussion of element 115 is all based on a non-existent element.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's existent because I held it, I touched it, I did experiments with it.
unidentified		And this is a stable, non-radioactive element.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
unidentified		Okay, well, let's suppose that's true, and I can't say anything different than that.
		I would like to say also, you mentioned the book The Gods of Eden.
		There has recently been released on the Internet an excellent, in my opinion, review of this book that says that it's pretty much based on L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology.
		What do you think of that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so, because I studied scientific biology for a very short time, and I don't think there's any correlation there.
unidentified		Well, thanks a lot for your time, and I've been keeping up with your information since about 1988, and I hope it's not all over but the screaming.
unidentified		Thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		That's an interesting comment.
		I hope it's not, too.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to ask John Lear a question, but I really doubt that he can do anything but deny it.
		John, how long have you been involved in the occult?
		Never, as far as I know.
		You're saying that most of the information in the books that you read are not occult books?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		No, because I read a book about ten years ago called The Cosmic Trigger, Final Secrets of the Illuminatas, and how they were going to duplicate the second coming of Christ with the alien deal that people would believe that they were going to be saved by aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		John, I understand what he's saying.
		I'm sure a lot of the religious folks out there think you've got three sixes somewhere tattooed under your hairline, huh, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Under that gray hair.
unidentified		Yeah, I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, what about Air America?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You did, can you talk about that at all?
unidentified		Sure.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I worked for CASI, which was Continental Air Services Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Continental Airlines.
		We did the same work as Air America, but we were not a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA, which Air America was.
		We did all the same stuff, but no, I did not work for Air America.
		I worked for Cassie.
		And those that are familiar with the operations in Southeast Asia will know exactly what I'm talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to bring some up, but I'm going to.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Iran-Contra.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to talk about that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		What's there to talk about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You transported or were about to transport some material to Iran, yes?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Arms and ammunition from Israel to Iran, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you ran some of the early weapons that Israel cut loose on our word, is that correct?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we didn't.
		I never made a flight.
		Like I say, the first airplane in got shot down.
		And Mossad, who was running the operation, didn't want to send the 707th in, which I was flying.
		So they canceled the operation.
		Later, I think it was like six or eight months later, they ran it with another airline that was out of, oh, somewhere like NASA or Nassau or someplace like that, and ran it from the Persian Gulf, like Dubai or one of those countries, directly into Iran.
		So they didn't have to go around another country like we did, Turkey.
		We had to go through Turkish airspace.
		And the deal was that we would drop every other load or give Turkey every other load that went in in permission for flying over their airspace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Just thought I'd get that out.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Where are you coming from, please?
unidentified		Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to ask him a little more about that security that the government has that doesn't allow the president to know very much.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		What was that called again?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just described how security works.
		The lowest clearance is top secret, and then there's 38 levels above that.
		But the President of the United States only has like a number 17 level.
		And There's not enough time to clear him, nor is there any reason to clear him.
unidentified		What sort of is this some sort of government agency that this security you had mentioned some name?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		MJ-12 was created by President Truman, and it more or less got out of hand in 1952 when President Eisenhower came in.
		Being a military man, he gave more teeth and more power to MJ-12, and it got out of control.
		They ran the whole operation.
		People who think we have a democracy, even a republic, are badly mistaken.
		We don't.
		But we hear it enough that we have a free country.
		You know, the bigger the lie, the more people believe it.
		But in fact, it's not true.
		MJ-12 runs the whole thing.
unidentified		Okay, one last thing, Ark.
		Could you give the number, or not the number, the address to your network?
		I'll take it off on the address to the network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean, sir?
		I'm sorry.
		What do you mean, sir?
unidentified		The address to the network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean to write to me?
unidentified		Yeah, to the network, yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the network is in a separate place than I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to?
unidentified		In Oregon, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yo, in Oregon.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I'd like to see about advertising on your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, contact me by fax.
unidentified		All right, thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		And that's area code 702-727-8499.
		That's my fax number, 8499.
		If you want to contact the network directly, it's area code 503-664-8829-8829.
		And if you want a tape of this program, as long as I'm going nuts with numbers here, it's area code 503-664-7966.
		John, we're in the number mode.
		Why don't you give the address for the Lazar tape?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, the Lazar tape is Tri-Dot Corporation.
		That's T-R-I-D-O-T Corporation, and it's 1324 Southeastern, and it's Las Vegas, Nevada, 89104.
		Don't look for the number because it's not in the book.
		It's $29.95 plus $3 in shipping and handling for the Lazar tape, where he describes his experiences with the back engineering on the Sodom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Vancouver, Canada calling.
		Great show.
		Hello, John.
		I don't really know too much about UFOs, so this might be a real basic question, but can you tell me about navigation of these crafts and what they'd be built of?
		What kind of compounds are...
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They've been able to compact the atoms to such a tight state that it's almost indestructible.
		We've seen that many times where a saucer will crash into sand and be at a 45-degree angle impact, but there's little or no damage at all.
		As far as the navigation, I don't know how that works.
		I just know how the propulsion works.
unidentified		Okay, well, best of luck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, you remember, first of all, did you happen to catch the movie Roswell on Showtime?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure, the producer was a friend of mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what was your assessment of the movie?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it good?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was pretty good.
		Each time they make a movie, they get a little closer and a little closer to the truth.
		I didn't like the way that they portrayed the alien as some poor lady reaching out, and it didn't look all that realistic.
		But, you know, it was better than this stuff before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in that movie and in descriptions of Roswell, there is a number of witnesses, John, who say that a piece of material from one of those craft was held, and they showed it in Roswell, and you could crumple it up, and it would spring right back out again.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that similar to the material that you described a little while ago?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		As the construction?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Some of it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Some of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you could imagine, I suppose, various parts of it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're all different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Let's go here.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Greg from Nickiske, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nickiskey, Alaska, yes, sir.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Anyways, I missed the first couple hours because Kenya and I doesn't play those until after you're over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		So this may have already been answered, but I've got three short questions for John.
unidentified		Number one, are you a member of the Trilateral Commission?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		How about the Council on Foreign Relations?
		No.
		How about a member of the Masons?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Of what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Masons.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but what is it?
unidentified		Oh, the Masonic Lodge?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the Masonic.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but I can tell you that I have certainly been accused of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about the CIA, John?
		Let's cover them all.
		KGB.
		NSA.
		No?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm just a poor old airline pilot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, caller?
unidentified		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		McKisky, Alaska.
		Well, that covers most of the alphabet agencies anyway.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Not a lot of time.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
		Good morning, Tom.
		Good morning.
		About a couple, two, three months ago, my wife and I were looking at a telescope.
		We had a really good view.
		And in the outer layer of the moon, there was like a blue half moon.
		But there also looked to be sort of like a craft that was...
		I never talked...
		But is that really possible?
		Or do you think maybe that was more like a reflection of maybe the sun or, you know, of the picture we've got?
		Because it was, you know, more like a saucer.
		It was like a saucer shape, but it was really like an orange type with a little bit of light.
		Not a whole lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not possible, a very good friend of mine one morning was So stay right where you are.
		We'll be right back to you.
		You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		CBC Radio Network
		Call Art Bell.
		In the Kingdom of Nine, toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. on the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's the granddaddy of ufology.
		I wonder if he minds that.
		John, do you mind that description, your granddaddy of ufology?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I just became a grandfather to a beautiful little girl, Alexandra Lear Stimonatis Tasso, my older daughter.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That was May 4th, and she's about four months old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Congratulations, John.
		Stay put.
		We'll be right back to you, the granddaddy of ufology, and he doesn't mind.
		That's John Lear, and he'll be back in just a moment.
		you Once again, here's John Lear.
		Hi, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Final portion now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From Omaha, Nebraska, somebody wants to know, John, isn't it possible the aliens are lying to us?
unidentified		Yes.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You know, they've been, several documents said that they are deceptive.
		And I was going to tell the previous caller that a friend of mine had seen, was looking up one morning ready to go fly, and he saw a saucer 1 20th the size of the moon just go across it.
		And while we were talking here, I had a reference that I was going to read, but I can't find it, a NASA technical document that documents about 600 different types of weird phenomena that was observed on the moon between the year 1600 and now as far as blinking lights, flashing lights, weird shadows, all kinds of stuff.
		And I just can't find it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, if you run across it, we'll do it.
		Matt in Portland wants to know, among other things, about a secret Earth war.
		Linda Howe spoke about a secret earth war.
		Does that make any sense to you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, she was saying that somebody had, you know, they have these secret vaults where they hold high-level discussions that are soundproofed and monitored and swept all The time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And somebody had stepped out, opened the door, and as somebody went in, they said, well, how's Earth's secret war going?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, what he was referring to is the conflict we have with the grave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Got to ask you about one more thing.
		I've done a series of interviews, John.
		I don't know whether you heard any of them with Richard Hoagland.
		Yeah.
		And Richard, did you hear some of that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't, but I just got his tape, his two new tapes of the structure on the moon that stands something like six or seven miles high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's very interesting, and I ordered the photographs myself from NASA, and I'm looking forward to them arriving within the next few days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Yeah, I have a lot of the pictures.
		I also have the videotapes.
		The presentation was very captivating, and you would think that it would be breaking in the news, but not so far, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, really.
		They're just not interested.
		And as far as his work on Mars, I told him that Bob Lazar had seen in his briefing the Sidonia region, photos that weren't accessible to the public, and there was definite doors and windows and construction on those pyramids in the Sidonia region.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm Bob from KE Exponent, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good, Bob.
unidentified		I've got a couple questions for John.
unidentified		One is, is he familiar with Bill Meyer?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Billy Meyer over in Switzerland?
		Right.
		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		When he talks in some of his contact papers about the Pleiades being the oldest group of visitors on the earth, and they're actually from the same ancestors as we are, the question I have is, they also believe in reincarnation, and they don't really believe in religion as such, but more as creation.
		And they believe in the good in man and whatnot.
		The question I have is they don't like us dealing with the graves because they seem to think that they are a negative life for us.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard that.
unidentified		And why apparently they came and offered their help to the American leadership at one time or another, and it wasn't accepted.
		Well, I'm just kind of wondering, is that just because they weren't offering technology?
		They were just offering help?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Weapons.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		We wanted weapons, and the Grays offered to give us the weapons, and the Palladians did not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		John, I want you to give some advice to the young ufologists out there.
		A lot of people are absolutely lit afire by all of this, and they're going to travel down the same road that you traveled down.
		And you've now reached a point where you've said you're fatalistic about it, and the best thing we can all do is go out and live our lives and enjoy our lives.
		What would you say to the young ufologists out there, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, they're not going to pay any more attention to that than I did when people told me that, you know, when I first started getting into it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know, but we should try.
		We really should try.
		I mean, if you were to sit down with somebody who's just starting into all this, what would you say to him?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Good luck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good luck?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't try to stop him?
unidentified		No.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, because I know that the lure of information, of finding out things, of stuff, is just too powerful.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		There's just no way that you could stop anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's good and realistic anyway, John.
		Thanks.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're doing okay.
unidentified		Okay, this is Dave from Grand City.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, I've got a question for him.
		My question is that out of all the things I've heard him said tonight, how could anything be possible?
		I mean, I'm a big Star Trek fan, and everything that he talks about seems to come in there.
		How does that all happen?
		And could it be possible that someday we could travel like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Why not?
		John, do you think that is in mankind's future?
		In other words, is there going to be a federation?
		Is there going to be an Earth that goes outward?
		Is that where we're headed?
		Or do you think not?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
		First of all, I think the cleaning out of the Petri dish is going to come pretty soon?
		Well, not pretty soon, but whenever it comes.
		You know, the Star Trek was based on that, well, I guess I'm right.
		I was going to say based on that we were first, but that's not what it was based on.
		Caden Roddenberry was supposedly one of three Hollywood producers that was given special information to use in his series.
		Now, since that I've read where he denies that, but who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who knows?
		All right, but you think on balance we're going to be pretty much earthbound.
		We're not.
		And then there's the Petri dish.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Enjoy your lives, folks.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		How's it going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going okay.
unidentified		Great.
		I was wondering.
		I live in Thinks, Arizona.
		A few years back, a bunch of my friends and I, we were out in the front yard and we saw a great green light beam going across the sky and it was solid and it had a beginning and it had an end to it like water coming out of a hose when you first turn it on and shut it off.
		Like a big plasma beam going through the sky and it was a good like 30 to 40 feet in diameter and that lasted a good three, four miles going through the sky.
		It was like a big arc.
		And I was wondering if he had any knowledge of what that might be.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, that's the first description I've heard of.
		There's unusual phenomena.
		I've heard a lot of different stuff, but that's the first one I've heard of that kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, me too.
		That's an interesting one, though.
		All right, on the wild card line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, all right.
unidentified		This is Matt in Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Matt.
unidentified		Made it through.
		John, I wanted to ask you a question very quickly.
		You spoke of William Bramley's book, Gods of Eden, where he describes the humans have been manipulated throughout history by extraterrestrials.
		And what I wanted to know is if you've had any information indicating that possibly the New World Order push is being orchestrated by these beings?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The Order of What?
unidentified		The New World Order.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		New World Order.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I don't have any opinion on that.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Art, who's your guest on Dreamlab this week?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest coming this week is going to be Dr. Bruce Goldberg, author of The Search for Grace.
unidentified		Sounds interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's going to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, sir.
		Bye-bye.
		Let's see.
		Very quickly, we'll go to the toll-free line.
		You're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, this is Philip calling from Champaign, Illinois.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you don't, Philip.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning.
		I'm calling from the Kingdom of Valleys Center, which is in Southern California at the base of Mount Palomar.
		Welcome.
		Famous 200-inch Hale telescope.
		You know, Dr. Hale, it's interesting.
		He never saw his telescope become a reality, but he was led by an invisible dwarf who apparently inspired him, told him where to build it, and that sort of thing.
		I have two questions.
		First of all, what does your guest think of George Adamski, who is also a local fellow here?
		He was apparently the father of the UFO culture.
		And also, does he have any information on a hypersonic vehicle called Aurora, which is apparently a top-secret thing coming out of a base in northern Scotland?
		We have a lot of sonic booms here on Wednesdays and Thursdays, and we've been hearing that this is coming from this Aurora vehicle, which does something strange over the San Diego area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it there.
		Let's get a response.
		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, George Adamski reported everything exactly as it happened.
		He was reported to be a hoaxer, but no, all that stuff happened to him.
		The photos were analyzed by friends of mine who had very good analyzing equipment, and it was true.
		There was one picture of him looking outside of a saucer, and that was true.
		Hale had a very interesting background.
		There was an alien that talked to that guy and led him in some of his research endeavors.
		And he has a very, very interesting history.
		The Aurora is a Mach 15 airplane operating out of somewhere in the United States, but also goes into McRhanish, which is in northern Scotland.
unidentified		I see.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that is one of our top secret, one of our six top-secret airplanes.
unidentified		How high does that fly, do you know?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		285,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And at Mach 15?
unidentified		Yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		People say Mach 7 or 8, but it's not.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's Mach 7.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mach 15.
		Wow.
		Toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, this is Dana and Eugene.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KBMW Country.
unidentified		Yeah, when I lived in Redmond, Washington, I was over to a friend's house.
		And there was an Army intelligence guy who his dad worked with for a lot of years.
		And this guy sent him, like, just a thousands of page document.
		He was supposedly on the run from the government because they were trying to hunt him down.
		And he sent like six of these papers out.
		And one of the things he said was that Roswell, and he was giving, I mean, case file numbers, everything, anything you could possibly want on it.
		I just barely saw the document.
		But we just sat around and talked about it one night.
		He said at Roswell, they recovered the bodies.
		One of them was alive.
		His name was something like Emu or Enu or something like that.
		They had like two separate brains, one on the left side, one on the right side.
		That's correct.
		They ate human flesh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sorry.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I didn't know that.
unidentified		But, yeah, go ahead.
unidentified		And just, you know, he went into the whole cover, but I mean, he detailed everything from, you know, different fighter pilots, their names, their vehicle identification number, everything, you know, just hundreds of documents on that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It would be great to get those documents, wouldn't it?
unidentified		Oh, I wish I knew the guy.
		I mean, that was the only time I ever talked to the guy.
		I moved like a week after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, a brain on the left and a brain on the right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was called bifurcated brain system.
		They were completely independent and separated by a ridge bone.
		Now, why that was, I don't know, but I remember reading the autopsy report on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, you have an autopsy?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the stuff that Stringfield put out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Lewis over in Chico.
		John, about two years ago, I had an opportunity while I was back east to run into an intelligence officer.
		I won't give his branch service because I certainly don't want to get him in trouble.
		But he worked out of one of our top command units back on the East Coast.
		And he told me that, now this is what he said, that the aliens that supposedly that our government's dealing with are in a non-interference type of pact.
		And that there were other aliens who were interfering.
		And he said there was actually three levels of government in this country.
		And they're all vying for positions of power.
		And they're kind of all in like a standoff to each other because, you know, different groups of these supposed aliens have upped the ante.
		You know, it's just kind of like here on Earth, you know, Bosnia.
		You know, somebody gets an AK-47, and the next guy gets a nuclear bomb.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree with that, and I think your friend was right.
unidentified		He also said, though, that the ones that they kind of kept an overall picture of the thing.
		He said that most of the abductions were not being carried out by aliens, but they were being carried out by the government, and it was for use for later, you know, they were programming people.
		They would go out and find people who would be susceptible to this.
		He said they had special editions of films that were very subliminal, and they would get like a control who would make friends with certain individuals.
		And they would go over to the guy's house, you know, and show him a special copy of E.T., except the guy's not knowing he's watching a special copy of E.T. and they would program these people up to a point where they would either give them a hypnotic experience or they would actually,
		and I thought this was kind of amusing, but he said they actually hired dwarfs and would dress them up and have a whole theater set up to be like a ship and give these people a physical experience so that even if they took them out and they got out to a psychiatrist or a hypnotist who was not even believing in this, when he would put them under, that he would get the reading back from them that they actually believed what they went under.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, kind of a mission impossible sort of stuff.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's true, and it's been detailed by Martin Cannon, the government abductions.
		And yeah, they do pretend they're aliens.
		I don't think it's the predominant form of production of abductions.
		But yes, the government is certainly doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of research now, John, into the abduction phenomenon.
		A lot of the researchers have sort of left the sighting mode, and they think the way to pursue this now is through the abduction phenomenon.
		Do you agree with that, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That'd be hard to do, but I'm just going to sit and watch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Rich in Anchorage, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Rich.
unidentified		I guess you could call me one of them fat, dumb, and lazy Americans because I just got turned onto your program a little while ago, so I'm learning.
unidentified		But I was wondering if you could explain to me what MJ-12 actually is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did earlier, but we will again, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		MJ-12 was the government, the secret review body that was put together by President Truman in 1947 to review and decide what to do about the alien threat, if any.
		It was given teeth by President Eisenhower when he got in and regretted by President Eisenhower when he got out.
		He said, beware of the military-industrial complex, which MJ-12 essentially run.
		For the people who don't believe that MJ-12 exists, my source for the existence of MJ-12 was Jimmy Doolittle.
		And since he's passed away now, I don't mind saying that that was my source.
		He confirmed to me that it did exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on there with John Lear.
unidentified		Oh, good morning.
		All right.
		This is Dan the Man, AWN Live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, real quick, because we're almost out of time.
unidentified		Okay, what I wanted to say was that Dr. Frank Stranges, have you heard of him?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Okay, well, I'll try to.
unidentified		Would you ever have him on your Dreamland?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I have not had him on Dreamland.
unidentified		Okay, well, he would be a very interesting person to have.
unidentified		He says that one-third of the fallen angels, you know, the that came from heaven, are part of the UFO phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on that note, we're going to have to close out.
		John, we're out of time.
		We've done it again.
		Made it all the way through.
		Great art.
		And, you know, as long as you are around and I'm around, John, I'm sure there'll be another show in our future.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine, anytime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's a pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's always a pleasure, my friend.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, everybody.
		We are utterly out of time.
		As you know, I'm ruled by the clock.
		It is the nature of things.
		And I would like to tell you one more time how to get a copy of this program.
		Because I know a lot of you tuned in late.
		A lot of you would like to archive a program of this sort with somebody like John Lear, and I can surely understand that.
		So, here's how to do it.
		You can call right now.
		We have a vastly improved tape delivery system for you all.
		They'll get it to you within a few days, they tell me.
		MasterCard and Visa work just fine.
		The number to call, and you can do it throughout the weekend.
		You can call it right now if you're able to get through otherwise throughout the weekend.
		Area code 503-664-7966.
		Once again, area code 503-664-7966.
		You'll tell them you want the program with John Lear.
		It has been a pleasure.
		This whole week of talk radio has been a pleasure.
		Dreamland comes up on Sunday.
		I'll be here, back here with the syndicated program.
		Monday night, Tuesday morning.
		So, for the live portion, you'll get more in some areas, some stations.
		But that's it for the live portion.
		And this week of Coast to Coast AM.
		Behalf of everybody at the network, thank you.

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