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Aug. 28, 1994 - Art Bell

02:01:51

Dreamland with Art Bell - The Roswell Truth - Kevin Randle

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	... crash at Broswell.
	Widely thought to be the best documented proof of alien existence and visiting of this Earth.
	So we'll be speaking with him.
	I think you'll find it fascinating.
	However, first, we're going to go to Linda Howe in Philadelphia and get her weekly update.
	However, even before that, we're going to welcome a couple of new stations to the network.
	As we continue to grow, now carrying Greenland, WGNS-AM radio in Murfreesboro, Tennessee.
	And that's also Nashville.
	Murfreesboro and Nashville, Tennessee.
	And also KOFE-AM in St.
	Marie's, Idaho.
	KOFE-AM in St.
	Marie's, Idaho.
	Welcome.
	Good to have you both on board, and I hope you'll be contributing this evening and making some calls.
	This program, for the weeks we've been on the air, you'll be, I'm sure, happy to know, now is carried by 75 affiliates nationwide, as we continue to grow at an outstanding pace.
	So, now, all the way back to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and with her weekly report, Here is author, investigator, Linda Howe.
	Linda, good evening.
	Hi, Alex.
	Hi.
	Well, reports about several phenomena have crossed my desk this week.
	One is a news story from Waureka, Oklahoma, about a rancher there who discovered that 1,700 of his cattle disappeared between August 3rd and August 7th.
	Did you say 1,700? 1,700.
	Wow.
	The Jefferson County, Oklahoma Sheriff's Office has put a search out for 850 cows and 850 calves.
	The first theory was cattle rustling, but Sheriff Don Allen said it would take 25 trucks to haul away that many animals, and that would be obvious to residents in the small farm community of La Rica.
	I will keep following up on this mystery.
	The rancher so far does not want to talk.
	And perhaps understandably because apparently even the bank that holds the note on the animals have gone out and confirmed that the animals are missing.
	Everyone is puzzled and of course this poor rancher is facing a major financial crisis.
	Sure, I'm curious Linda, of those that you do interview or request interviews with that have had something like this happen, how many generally say, no I don't want to talk to you, go away?
	It can be in some cases, if I thought over the last 14 years, maybe 50-50.
	As many as 50% of the people that I talk to in interviews say they don't want to do anything publicly.
	Wow.
	So then we're missing no doubt a lot of very good stories.
	Yeah, the challenge is to get to the facts and to encourage people to come forth to discuss some of these phenomena because that may help us all to understand and I'm beginning to feel from the letters I'm getting from the Dreamland audience That more and more people are beginning to communicate that I think are really very, very credible and solid cases.
	And in this case too, animal disappearances have been reported in other regions of the United States and Canada, even England over the past couple of decades.
	Earlier this year in 1994, 200 dogs were reported missing from backyards in northern Georgia, and several hundred cats have disappeared from Falls Church, Virginia, Plano, Texas, parts of California, and Canada just in the past few years.
	And the intriguing question is, could any of these animals have been lifted up in beams of light as reported in some of the animal mutilation and UFO abduction cases?
	I don't know how we would prove it, but the question remains since there have been eyewitnesses to seeing animals lifted up in beams of light.
	Since last weekend's Dreamland when I interviewed investigator Gail Stalen about two more mutilations in Angel Fire, New Mexico east of Taos, There were three more odd animal deaths in northern New Mexico.
	Last Friday, rancher Max Cordova near Espinola discovered two of his 10-year-old cows dead with tongues cut out deep in the throat, udders removed and clean bloodless circles in the rectums cored out.
	That makes seven such similar cattle mutilations in the Taos, New Mexico area just since May.
	And in three of those, pathologist Dr. John Outschuler found evidence of high heat at the excision lines, hot enough to cook the hemoglobin.
	Mr. Cordova also found another cow last Saturday lying in a pasture, shaking from head to hoof, as he put it, and then it died, cause unknown.
	I contacted a veterinarian who did a necropsy on that animal and collected tissues from the mutilated cows for pathology examination and I'll report those results when we have them.
	Good.
	Reports from England are that the last big formation in Wiltshire near Avebury was a huge spider web laid out in a wheat field.
	And other images this summer have included scorpions, a beetle, a large eye, galaxy-like formations, and something that people have described as an infinity symbol.
	English newspapers and television have covered the mysterious formations with less ridicule and less emphasis on the hoax theory this year.
	And yet, in the United States, there has been no coverage about the continuing formations at all.
	And in the next month or so I hope to report from Dr. Levengood who has been getting plants from England to see again if we are finding that same pattern of biochemical and biophysical changes which cannot be helped.
	Why do you think something that is a story and making headlines there in this area wouldn't be touched by the media here?
	because that 1991 tabloid story about Doug and Dave being the answer to the crop circle
	mystery that was carried by all of our networks and CNN and Time and Newsweek and the New
	York Times and all of that accepted that those two old men were responsible for the mystery
	when it was very clear that since the phenomenon was worldwide, had been reported in up to
	20 some countries in 1990, I think it was, yeah, the year 1990 and going into 1991, those
	two men were not responsible for the entire phenomenon, but the media bought that story
	and once the media, quote, mainstream media has bought the hoax theory, then they don't
	go back to cover it.
	Well, isn't it worth asking, Linda, why we have these serious questions, formations, cattle mutilations, all the rest of it, that absolutely cannot be explained, and the media deals with those stories, and then along comes one hoax story, And they buy it hook, line, and sinker.
	Right, and it's like one of the ranchers in Alabama last year that I interviewed for my new documentary said to me, it's denial, Linda.
	Denial is a coping mechanism for people.
	It's much easier to deny it than it is to face the fact that some very strange kind of intelligence is interacting with our planet.
	I guess maybe that does explain it, Linda.
	And going from the standpoint that we are dealing with hard physical evidence in the crop circles, in the animal mutilations and even in the human abduction syndrome, There's also the hard physical science area that was involved with the impact on Jupiter.
	And last week in Europe, a group of astronomers, physicists, and other scientists met in Holland to discuss the latest updates about the comet collision.
	And one of the lead investigators, Dr. Heidi Hamel, she's an astronomer at MIT who specializes in high-speed satellite imaging and spectroscopy.
	And in fact, she was the one who was getting all those first images, and she's the one who took happily that big bottle of champagne right into the first television news conference to present it to Dr. Eugene Shoemaker and his wife and others.
	When they have the very first image of that big black circle at the bottom of Jupiter.
	And I talked with her Friday about what scientists have been learning so far in the wake of the spectacular explosions from the comet impact.
	Because even in that, there have been some mysteries that are yet not solved.
	And just a moment, I will hook up here and we will hear Dr. Hamilton.
	All right.
	She may be the one that for a while we called Heidi.
	We've had some tantalizing hints of interesting things on Jupiter.
	Some of the way that the material is spreading, particularly in ultraviolet wavelengths, is very interesting.
	We're seeing spreading in latitude, things migrating across the normal lines of latitude.
	You know, when you look at Jupiter, you see these bands.
	And, you know, normally the winds blow along the bands.
	So that's what we think of as the winds.
	But when we take some of this high-altitude material, it looks like it's just drifting across the bands.
	And that would suggest, what, no atmospheric motion at the upper?
	Well, it would suggest different atmospheric motion at those upper levels.
	It's not blowing, the winds aren't blowing the same way high up as they are deep down.
	And we didn't really have any way to measure that before.
	And now we're starting to think that we can actually see that motion happening,
	which is one of the things that we were all very excited about beforehand.
	We thought, you know, we might be able to do this and now we're starting to actually believe we really can.
	And how long do you think, at this point, are these brighter spots on the surface of Jupiter going to last?
	Will it be a permanent one?
	Well, that's a good question, and I don't think I can really answer that in any detail.
	We know the features are still there now.
	We just had some new data from the Hubble telescope come down yesterday, and you can very clearly see them.
	And we can see them in ground-based images, too.
	You don't need the Hubble to see them.
	So we know that this stuff is still hanging around in now, a month, more than a month afterwards.
	As to whether or not it's going to be permanent, we really don't know.
	We won't know that for a while.
	Maybe, you know, next year, if we see these things are fading rapidly, we'll be able to say, yeah, they're going to go away.
	It's pretty clear they're not forming a new red spot.
	Some people thought, oh, this is how the Great Red Spot was formed.
	But that doesn't seem to be true.
	We're not seeing giant new vortices or hurricanes forming at these latitudes.
	We're really seeing a band of material.
	So it's just a question of how long it takes that band to fade.
	It might take a year.
	I take two.
	And somebody with like a normal telescope, let's say a 4-inch dynoscope reflector or something like that, can they still see these intact places clearly?
	Someone with a small telescope who knows what to look for can probably still see them.
	It's a little bit harder than it was months ago, though, and here's why.
	A month ago, these features were very localized.
	They were spots.
	and it's easy to see a dark spot.
	But when you then take that spot and you spread it out as it's happening,
	its contrast drops quite a bit.
	And so if you don't know where to look, it's not as easy to see the spots.
	So it's a question of how familiar a person is with Jupiter.
	If they know where Jupiter normally does not have dark band here,
	then they know that's from the impact site.
	But it doesn't have these very obvious big dark splotches like it did a month ago.
	So the most outstanding remaining mystery is why was the substance black
	where these impacts were?
	Yeah, that's one of the questions.
	Another question that we're all still very curious about is how deep did these pieces really penetrate before they exploded?
	Well, that's something that was very interesting because that tells us a lot about the comet, it tells us a lot about Jupiter, and we really don't know the answer to that yet.
	We think it didn't penetrate down to the water cloud layer because we didn't see any Jovian
	water, just like we saw no comet water.
	At the meeting in Holland, we were talking about the fact that we did not see the bright
	flashes as these pieces went in, the meteor phase.
	Most of what we saw was the fireballs blowing out after the pieces had exploded.
	And the fact that we didn't see them on the way in suggests to many of us that they went relatively deep, below the ammonia cloud decks, which is really the top cloud layer that we see.
	invisible wavelengths. But we're not sure about that.
	And if it did go deep, then it would again be the question, why not see water?
	Yeah, that's right.
	So, our mysteries about Jupiter are still not all resolved, and at the end of September
	there will be another major scientific meeting in Baltimore.
	There might be more to report then.
	All right.
	Well, it would be interesting to know, A, how deep they really did go, and B, Richard Hoagland, who's been on the program, has speculated a number of times that the black spots were carbon, and they seem disinclined to be very interested in talking about the black spots.
	Have you noticed?
	He said that they have found some odd elements, like lithium, and some other really odd ones, which they're going to have more papers presented in September.
	But in terms of the identity of the black material, at least according to Heidi, so far, they do not know what it is.
	All right.
	Well, Linda, gee, a wonderful report, and I was hoping to get some follow-up, and I hope there'll be more on the collisions.
	I've been fascinated by that.
	Right.
	I plan to talk with her and Dr. Shoemaker again after the September meeting in Baltimore.
	All right.
	Wonderful.
	Linda Howe, as always.
	Oh, wait a minute.
	Wait a minute.
	Let's give out your address.
	I know a lot of people want to communicate to you, so give it out.
	I've been very grateful for the increasing number of letters, extraordinary stories from people, and I will continue to try to share some of these in future Dreamlands as we go with those who give me permission.
	You can write to Linda Howe at Post Office Box 538.
	In Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, spelled H-U-N-T-I-N-G, D as in dog, O-N, Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, and the zip code is 19006.
	All right, there you've got it, and we'll give that out again in the program.
	Linda, as always, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Right, Linda Howe, our reporter slash investigator in Philadelphia and frequently elsewhere.
	She travels around the world to look at this sort of phenomenon, and we will continue to have her on the program.
	All right, Dreamland continues in a moment with something a lot of people have been waiting for called Crash at Roswell.
	We're going to reach out to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, I hope, and find Kevin Randall.
	Hi, Kevin, are you there?
	Yes, I am.
	Excellent.
	We've only got a couple of minutes before the bottom of the hour break, Kevin, so tell us something quickly about yourself.
	I think the important things to know is I used to be an Army helicopter pilot.
	I spent 12 years as an Air Force intelligence officer, and I've been investigating UFOs for about 20 years.
	So I've got a background in aviation and investigative work of one nature, and I could bring all that to bear on the investigation that Don Schmidt and I conducted to learn what exactly happened at Roswell in July of 1947.
	Well, we'll certainly get to that, but if you were in intelligence work, And you piloted helicopters.
	I'm really going to ask you about something up front here that has been a big matter of contention with our audience.
	What are these black helicopters that are flying around?
	Any idea, Kevin?
	I actually have no ideas at all.
	The stories seem to make no logical sense whatsoever.
	According to FAA regulations and all other regulations, if you have an aircraft, it has got to have a number on it, and it's got to be flown in accordance with FAA regulations, and these things seem to violate all those regulations.
	I just... I don't know what's going on.
	Do you get reports of them?
	In other words, I'm sure very much like we do here, you're in a circle of people that hears about this kind of stuff, and so do you also get reports of these black helicopters?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	People from all over.
	In fact, up in Portland, Oregon, I was working with John Kirby and Don Newman up there.
	And the first time we ever met with them, they told us a number of stories about black helicopters.
	And I confess, they just make no sense to me at all.
	Well, alright.
	I don't know what to do about that or say about that.
	It's just kind of an ongoing thing and a lot of people are, to use the street term, kind of freaked out about it.
	Kevin, and they feel these things are somehow flying around up there with, even though we don't have reports of harm coming to anybody, somehow people feel they're trying to do harm to them.
	All right, Kevin, stand by.
	We'll take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
	It'll be about four minutes, and we'll come back and find out if we can really get the truth about the UFO crash.
	At Roswell, which again is considered to be the incident here on Earth with perhaps the best documentation to prove that they really have or are here, have been here or are here.
	We'll be back.
	This is a pre-recorded, previously broadcast program.
	I have an eye on the area.
	You'll migrate.
	One, two, seven, go ahead.
	I'm going to go ahead and move.
	I have an eye on the area.
	You'll migrate.
	One, two, seven, go ahead.
	I'm going to go ahead and move.
	This is Houston.
	Say again, Kevin?
	Somebody had a bogey at that time.
	Roger.
	Seventy Control here again.
	The reference in that conversation was a bogey.
	It was Marvin who reported citing the bogey.
	This is Seventy Control in Houston.
	And this is Dreamland at 35 minutes into the flight and once again here is our guest Kevin Randall, author of The Truth About the Crash, The UFO Crash at Roswell.
	Kevin?
	Yes.
	Good, welcome back to the program.
	Thank you.
	All right Kevin, Just before we get started with regard to your story, recently Showtime had the movie on Roswell, which I saw, and I don't want to lead you into any review you don't want to give, but I sure would like to find out from you what you think about that movie.
	Well, it was based on the first book that Don Schmidt and I did, The UFO Crash at Roswell.
	So frankly, we liked it.
	You liked it?
	Yes.
	But we were prejudiced.
	In fact, both of us are in the film in cameo roles.
	Don plays a bartender.
	Oh, no kidding.
	That was you, huh?
	Yes, I was me.
	Yes, I do recall.
	I certainly do recall.
	way in the back arguing with the deputy and as you move in and out of the camera you can
	see me back there arguing with the deputy.
	No kidding that was you huh?
	Yes that was me.
	Yes I do recall, I certainly do recall.
	Is there anything about the film that you found distressing or inaccurate or blown up
	you know for the sake of cinematography?
	They did a very good job of trying to stick pretty much to the story.
	And, you know, as the director said a number of times, they were making a film.
	So you have to keep it in context of them making a film.
	When I first saw the script, I was a little bit bothered by the stuff from Dreamland Area 51.
	Uh, the animal mutilations, the human abductions, I thought this really has no relevance to the Roswell case.
	But in the context of the film, with Martin Sheen saying, um, telling, telling Jesse Marshall in the context of the film, uh, well then, none of it's true.
	Well, maybe some of it's true.
	And in the context of the disinformation put out by the government, I thought it worked very well.
	What about, uh, one thing that struck me in the film, uh, was the size of the debris field at Roswell.
	Uh, my gosh, for as far as the eye could see almost, uh, you know, there was debris.
	Was there that much debris at the original crash site?
	On the debris field, according to Jesse Marcel, the debris field continued for three quarters of a mile.
	Wow.
	It was two to three hundred feet wide and stretched for three quarters of a mile.
	And in fact, the reason the debris field is so large is because I said something to the director, so the next day I found myself walking way out into the desert, dropping debris here and there with a number of other people.
	And Paul Davis, the executive producer, suggested, well, maybe the director was getting even with you for shooting your mouth off.
	You should have told him the debris field wasn't large enough.
	Yes.
	Alright, let's back up a little bit and have you tell the story, the truth about what occurred at Roswell as best you've been able to determine it.
	And how did you determine what the truth was, by the way?
	A series of interviews, no doubt.
	Interviews with the eyewitnesses, people who were there.
	No longer are we relegated to having to deal with this on the basis of my father saw this and told me about it, my husband saw this and told me about it.
	We're now at the point where this is what I saw.
	So we have the first-hand witnesses of all of whom are named, or the majority of whom are named in the book.
	How many witnesses of that caliber were you able to find?
	We have found about a dozen people now who were on the debris field, I'm sorry, on the impact site where the craft and the bodies were found, who have talked to us about some aspect of it.
	Unfortunately, a number of them have since passed away since we had an opportunity to talk to them, but we do have that many.
	In fact, Don Ecker at UFO Magazine in California uh... just found another first-hand witness
	who corroborated some of the things that we published the book so no longer can
	people point to us and say well uh... the way you ask questions uh...
	your agenda had you lead these people into what you wanted to say
	Did I lead people into this?
	and a witness that we had no contact with when he first told the story who was found
	by someone else and now that we've been able to review what he said he tends to corroborate
	what the other first-hand witnesses had said as well.
	Have you spent any introspective time, Kevin, asking yourself that question, did I lead
	people into this, did I put ideas in their head or was I objective?
	That always runs through your mind, especially when you begin to get to the story as you
	wanted to hear it.
	I mean, we wanted to find the first-hand witnesses, people who see the craft of bodies, and when we began to find those people, the question was, are they telling us what we want to hear?
	That's right.
	Or are they telling us what they actually observed, and how can we corroborate this?
	And what it turns out is we kept a lot of the information to ourselves, uh... before the publication of the book
	for that very reason one of the first hand witnesses we identify mcphee
	mckinsey in the book uh... because he asked us not to use it his real name it
	because he values values his privacy but but he he'd let us he'd let us
	uh... down a number of roads that we have not gone before The crash site being, the impact site being much closer to Roswell.
	Not the debris field by Mack Brazel, but the impact site.
	The shape of the craft not being a classic flying saucer with a dome on it, but something more heel shaped.
	The number of bodies, what they looked like.
	He told us all this stuff, and it varied from the conventional wisdom.
	And we thought, well this is wonderful, this is what we want, but is this guy feeding us a lie?
	But we found corroborative testimony.
	Lewis Rickett, the NCOIC of the Counterintelligence Office at Roswell, corroborated the shape of the crash using the same words almost, that it was heel-shaped.
	That the drive they made from Roswell, he and a man that he identified as Sharon Cabot, made from the base at Roswell was about 45 minutes to the impact site.
	Not the two and a half to three hours it takes to get out to the debris field.
	So it's much closer to Roswell.
	Well, let me understand.
	The impact site versus the debris field.
	How much distance between the two?
	About 40 miles.
	40 miles?
	Based on what we've been able to determine.
	35 to 40 miles.
	Alright, well then that means the craft broke up in the air.
	The problem we have with that is that it looked like an intact craft was found on the impact site.
	We have a debris field, and the debris, the wide range of debris, you don't have the wide range of debris you'd have if the thing broke up in the air.
	You have some metallic debris, you have some wires, things like that.
	But if an airplane broke up in the air, you'd have a lot of other stuff.
	And you don't have that on the debris field.
	Yeah, but that was a gigantic debris field and how much of that kind of stuff could any craft lose and still be basically intact to impact anywhere else?
	Yeah, that's a very good question and we simply don't have the answer.
	uh... to that question what we know is we have a debris field that would
	describe by about the number of people mac bravo uh...
	telling his son is sometimes talking about that
	but we have general action for example told us about two distinct sites the one
	closer to ross over the brief field yes we have a number of witnesses leading
	up telling us those things
	There are questions we don't have the answers to because we don't, we haven't got to the internal workings of this thing.
	Alright, the creatures that they showed in the movie, how did they arrive at how to make those creatures look in the movie?
	I believe what they did in the movie was they took some of the testimony that came about in our, from our first book, Some of the things we've said in the work that we were putting together for the second book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, especially based on the eyewitness testimony we've since uncovered, took some of their cues from the abduction phenomenon in the current state of UFO literature and created a being that sort of fit all the descriptions.
	Um, but the beings found at Roswell, according to the eyewitnesses that we talked to, were much more human-looking than they were alien-looking.
	They're not the typical greys.
	The eyes, although larger than human eyes, still had pupils.
	The heads, although slightly larger than human heads, were slightly larger than they would be proportionate to the body.
	The bodies were extremely thin.
	The bones were very fragile, according to that.
	So some of the things that we have learned from our investigation were incorporated in it, but they also wanted to make the creatures look alien.
	More alien than they probably were.
	Alright, fine.
	Well, even so, Kevin, assuming that there were beings and they were recovered, Uh, we would not do autopsies and then cremate, uh, uh, the remains.
	We would obviously retain for all time, through some method or another, these bodies.
	So, someplace, now, today, those bodies must exist.
	I would, yes.
	The best information we have, and again, this is very speculative based on just a couple of people, is that they are in Nevada.
	Not at Greenland, not at Groom Lake or Area 51, but at a special location in the central areas of Nevada in the mountains.
	Really?
	As you know, what, 90% of the state of Nevada is government territory.
	Oh, we well know that.
	Yeah, and our understanding is that there was a special facility created in central
	Nevada in the mountains for the preservation of the bodies and a great deal of the debris
	recovered at Roswell.
	Gee, I feel honored.
	In the same state with the bodies, huh?
	Would that be some, I'm always looking for some way, Kevin, rather than reviewing what
	occurred all those years ago, fascinating as that is, to approach it today and try and
	I mean everybody wants to do that.
	That would be one way.
	That certainly would be one way.
	I think one of the other things we need to do, and I think Don Schmidt and I have done a fairly good job, and to give credit where credit is due, I think that Stanton Friedman, I think that Bill Moore have pretty well explored what happened at Roswell back in 1947.
	What we need to do now is find out what happened at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in 1947.
	Some of that work has been done, but there's a great deal more to be done, and learn what was going on in the UFO phenomenon From that point forward, and that may provide us the clues to get to where we want to go today.
	But we need to take the investigation out of New Mexico and move it into Ohio and other locations.
	Well, as there were witnesses with regard to what occurred in New Mexico, you would think there would also be witnesses, although probably more carefully warned.
	Uh, from, uh, from Ohio that you could interview and kind of track what's happened to these bodies and what happened in Ohio.
	And that's right, again, General Exxon told us that he was at the base when this happened, July of 1947.
	Later he became the base commander at Wright-Patterson in the mid-1960s.
	But he told us that one of the bodies had been taken to Denver because the Army's mortuary service was housed at Lowry Army Airfield at the time.
	Yes.
	and that it was experimented on there, obviously with an eye for the best way to preserve it
	without chemically altering the tissue samples or the blood the way we normally do when you
	embalm a body.
	They wanted to preserve it as pristine as they possibly could without allowing it to
	decay.
	We have been told that one of the bodies went to MacDill, I think, Air Force Base in Florida
	and it had been preserved there.
	But you're absolutely correct.
	We have some witnesses at Wright Field and later Wright-Patterson Air Force Base who provided us with some clues.
	General Exxon told us some things that when he first told us them weren't that interesting.
	He mentioned that there would be groups of men coming in from Washington, D.C. to Wright-Patterson
	Air Force Base.
	He was responsible for getting them an airplane, and then they would go out and investigate
	a UFO sighting and would come back to Wright Field, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	We thought, well, that's curious, but not overly significant.
	Now with the discovery of the 4602nd, at that point it would have been the 1127th Air Activities Group, and Project Moondust, that information becomes extremely important because it's clear that the people Exxon was talking about were working with the 1127th Air Activities Group.
	So nobody knew that that group was at Wright-Patt?
	The group was not at Wright-Patterson.
	They were at Fort Belvoir, Virginia in the Washington, D.C.
	area.
	They came in to Wright-Patterson.
	He provided them with a Wright-Patterson Air Force airplane.
	He said they would come in to be enclosed on commercial airliners and then go out and investigate the UFO.
	So if you had a smart aleck reporter who tried to trace these guys back, he could trace them back to Wright-Patterson, home of Project Blue Book and everybody's happy.
	And that's where it would stop.
	All right, hold on just a moment, Kevin Randall.
	We'll be right back to you.
	All right, let us do a little of the original stuff and tell everybody, because there may be some out there who don't know.
	Back in 1947, what were the sequence of events roughly?
	What happened?
	What we believe happened, based again on eyewitness testimony, on the evening of July 4th, 1947,
	between 11.17 and 11.27 p.m., an object crashed just north of Roswell, New Mexico.
	Next day, the military is out there.
	They've cordoned the area and are picking up the craft and the bodies.
	Major Edwin Easley, the Provost Marshal of the 509th Bomb Group, told me it was an extraterrestrial spacecraft.
	Steve McKenzie told me that the object was heel-shaped, that there were five bodies.
	Lewis Rickett told me that the object was heel-shaped, and that some of the metal was extremely thin, but he couldn't bend it.
	They couldn't do anything to cut it.
	They recovered the craft, they recovered the bodies, took them to the Roswell Army Airfield.
	On the evening of July 5th, morning of July 6th, two airplanes left Roswell carrying the bodies.
	One went to Uh, Andrews Army Airfield, Andrews Air Force Base in Washington, D.C., so top-level people in the government could see the bodies.
	The other one went to Wright-Patterson, Wright Field at the time.
	They didn't put all the bodies on one airplane in case one of them crashed.
	Um, on Sunday, July 6th, now we run back into the conventional ways.
	A Mack Brazel finds the field of metallic debris on the morning of the 5th.
	On the morning of the 6th, he takes it into Roswell, takes some of the debris into Roswell, shows it to the Chavez County Sheriff, George Wilcox, who in turn called the 519th Bomb Group, and Jesse Marcel, and apparently Sharon W. Cabot, who was the commander of the counterintelligence office, was sent out to the debris field.
	They spent the day of the 7th out there, collected some of the debris, came back late at night.
	Marcel showed it to his wife and son.
	Who made that announcement?
	How high did that go?
	On July 8th, the Army announced, we captured a flying saucer on a ranch in the Roswell region.
	By 4 or 5 o'clock that afternoon, General Ramey at 8th Air Force Headquarters said,
	no, no, they made a mistake, it was merely a weather balloon.
	Who made that announcement? How high did that go?
	The, uh, uh, The, the original announcement that a UFO crashed?
	It went all the way to the President.
	I mean, the President knew.
	The President knew?
	There's no question.
	Edwin Easley, the Provost Marshal, told me one of the reasons he didn't like talking about this was because he promised the President he wouldn't talk about it.
	Now, I don't know whether Easley told the President personally, told Truman personally he wouldn't talk about it, or Truman's representative in New Mexico, but it's in essence the same thing.
	Easley felt that he had promised the President he would not talk about it.
	Wow.
	I had at one time, in my discussions with Easley, had told him that I knew General Thomas DuBose.
	And I said, do you know General DuBose?
	And he said, yes.
	And I said, if I had General DuBose call you and say it was okay to talk, would you feel more comfortable then?
	And he said, no.
	I didn't realize that what I needed to get was the President to call this guy and tell him it was okay to talk about it.
	I couldn't find a general officer high-ranking enough.
	All right, what about the other end of the scale?
	In the movie Roswell, it showed literally platoon after platoon of regular grunt-type GIs out there picking up debris like so many cigarette butts that you've got to pick up around, that I remember picking up around the barracks.
	And they were doing that, crawling on their hands and knees, and there was a ton of debris.
	Shouldn't there be a lot of low-ranking people who participated in that debris pickup that you could find and interview?
	Absolutely, and we've talked to many of them.
	We've probably talked to four dozen people who handled the metallic debris.
	Wow.
	That didn't see the craft, did not see the bodies, but handled metallic debris.
	So yes, there were a great number of them.
	Okay, well that's important.
	What do they say about the nature of the debris?
	Robert Smith, for example, who was a sergeant, helped load some of the debris on airplanes, said that he'd seen a foil sample of it, that when you watered it up into a ball and dropped it on the table, it would unfold itself.
	Yes, they showed that on the movie.
	And that's a very easy one to show because, I mean, it's something that's so unusual that that sticks in the mind.
	An awful lot of people talked about that one.
	Bill Brazell, the son of the man who founded Mac Brazell, played by Dwight Yoakam in the movie, He had a piece of that foil that he talked about, and he liked it too because it would unfold itself.
	Frankie Rowe, whose father was a firefighter in Roswell, when a state trooper brought a piece of debris by the firehouse, saw that kind of debris.
	Sally Taddolini, who was a neighbor of the Brazzles, saw the piece of debris that Bill Brazzles brought by, and she was impressed with it because she just spent all day ironing and thought it would be wonderful to have fabric that wouldn't wrinkle.
	uh... so i mean it is a large number of people from civilians to to low-ranking
	military people who saw the metallic debris and talked about what it was when
	you get to the craft of the bodies clearly that was much more important and that was
	a limited to uh... of of smaller number of people
	But there was a large number of people who saw the metallic debris.
	And the description we have from some of the people is that they lined them up across that debris field, shoulder-to-shoulder, as you saw in the movie, picking up the metallic debris, first sweeping it at double arm intervals, then at shoulder-to-shoulder, then finally on their hands and knees to make sure they picked up all the debris.
	Wow.
	In the movie, Major Marcells had more than just one of the pieces of foil.
	He had a piece of debris with some writing on it that looked like some sort of Egyptian hieroglyphics or something.
	It was hard to discern, but that's kind of what it looked like.
	Is that an accurate portrayal of what he had?
	I think a more accurate portrayal of what he had, according to his son, Jesse Jr., who was on the set with us, as a matter of fact.
	Oh, no kidding.
	After the movie Roswell, there was a short little thing they showed, and you see Jesse Jr.
	sitting in a chair out in the desert talking about that.
	Well, that was on the scene where they were filming the film.
	But according to him, the symbology was more of geometric shapes.
	Squares and circles and triangles and things like that.
	But he described it as being hieroglyphic-like.
	I think Mack Brazel told people that it was like Chinese writing.
	The Chinese symbol writing, of course.
	Alright, still just as strange.
	Kevin, I've got to ask you to hold on for a sec.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	We're going to do a little bit of news here at the top of the hour.
	And we'll be back.
	Radio is a wonderful land to be in.
	We have enough time to explore an issue the way it should be.
	Kevin Randall is my guest and we're talking about the truth about the UFO crash at Roswell.
	We apologize.
	Network-wide, we understand there was an interruption that lasted for, uh, some period of time.
	Some miss all over, uh, the network.
	And it is, of course, uh, the government, uh, not wanting you to hear what it is we have to say.
	No, just kidding.
	What it actually is, um, is severe thunderstorms in Vernon Valley, New Jersey.
	Which is where the master C-band uplink is, satellite uplink, and so I guess they're back there battling lightning bolts and trying to keep everything together.
	So if there is any interruption, then that's the reason for it.
	Vernon Valley, New Jersey is being presently inundated with rain and severe thunderstorms.
	In a moment, Kevin Randall once again.
	You have one, Randall.
	Kevin, are you there?
	Yes, I am.
	Good.
	Let's see.
	I guess everybody missed just a tiny bit of the show because of the thunderstorms back in New Jersey, Kevin.
	My personal opinion, it was Psycop doing it.
	I do sometimes wonder, I admit, Kevin.
	Uh, whether, uh, whether there is tampering about, uh, with this kind of program, uh, when you're dealing with the kind of information you're dealing with, but who knows?
	Uh, at any, at any rate, uh, Kevin, if you would review for everybody just a little bit, uh, I believe I believe that it occurred just prior to the hour, which would mean while you were detailing some of the events at Roswell, it went off, of course.
	Of course, naturally.
	As I say, the best evidence we have in its eyewitness testimony is that the crash took place between 11.17 and 11.27 p.m.
	on July 4th.
	July 5th, the military moves in, cordons off the area, recovers the craft, recovers five alien bodies.
	The same day, Mack Brazell finds his debris field.
	Sunday, July 6th, Mack Brazell comes in, alerts the Chavez County Sheriff, who in turn calls the Roswell Army Airfield Major Jesse A. Marcelle.
	And apparently, Captain Sheridan Cavett, who was in charge of the counterintelligence office, accompanied Brazell back out to the debris field.
	They spend these, July 7th there, Monday, July 7th there, Razzle, uh, leaves them on the field.
	Marcel eventually sends Cabot back to the base.
	He stays there until dusk, drives home, shows some of the debris, the metallic debris, to his wife and his son, and then takes it on into the base.
	On July 8th, the military announces they have a flying saucer.
	Uh, uh, Razzle on the airfield captures flying saucer and ranch in Roswell region.
	Three or four hours later, General Roger Ramey, commander of the 8th Air Force, announced, no, no, it's nothing more than a common radar target.
	The officers and men at Roswell overreacted to the historical times that they were in, and misidentified this fairly common weather balloon as a flying disk.
	And that pretty well shot down the story.
	Until Marcel surfaces in 1970, talking to friends, And in fact a woman who did a college thesis on it about having captured a flying saucer and then of course from that point the UFO researchers became involved with Bill Moore's book coming out I believe in 1980 detailing part of the Roswell case.
	And so how do you feel about it now?
	You've done all of these, I presume now it's years of investigation.
	What do you personally believe, Kevin?
	There is no doubt in my mind that what was recovered was an alien spacecraft.
	I based that on the eyewitness testimony given to me by Major Edwin Easley, for example.
	He was a Provost Marshal of Five Nights Bomb Group.
	Told me it was extraterrestrial.
	Also told the President that he wouldn't talk about it.
	It was something so important the President had to become involved in it.
	Jim Ragsdale, who was a A civilian living in the area happened to be camping out in that area the night the thing crashed.
	Was there the next day as the military came in and cordoned off the area.
	He saw the military coming so he got out.
	But he saw the crash, he saw the bodies.
	He thought they were dummies.
	He didn't think they were real people because they were too small.
	We talked to W. Curry Holden, Dr. Holden, who was the I'm chairman of the department of history and anthropology
	at Texas Tech University.
	Holden told me personally he was there, he'd seen it all, he'd seen the crafts, he'd seen
	the bodies just north of Roswell.
	So we have a wide range of testimony from very credible people including men who have
	PhDs to military officers to civilians who saw something and we've been able to talk
	to them and learn what they saw.
	Well that's remarkable.
	Just remarkable.
	Kevin, I would like to expose you to the audience, open the telephone lines, let them ask you questions.
	Let me ask you this.
	Does your experience now with UFOs range beyond Roswell?
	Oh, absolutely.
	For the last five years, you mentioned how long we've been doing it.
	Don Schmidt and I have been conducting this investigation almost exclusively for five years.
	But prior to that, I spent a lot of time researching UFOs.
	I did a book called The UFO Casebook.
	Which details the history of the UFO phenomenon from Kenneth Arnold signing up to 1988 when the book had to be submitted.
	I've done some work on abductions and I in fact may have done work on the first abduction case where the family suggested the aliens had come into the house and that was the Pat Roach abduction from Utah in 1973.
	All right, very good.
	Well, let us go to the telephones.
	Let's talk to a few people out there.
	And so if you have questions about the UFO field in general, now is the time, folks.
	Jump on the lines on the toll-free line.
	You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Uh, yeah.
	That's David from Palm Desert.
	Hi, David.
	Uh, I was just curious.
	I missed the Roswell show.
	I just wondered if it was going to be out on videocassette or rebroadcast.
	Well, that's a good question.
	Uh, Kevin, it was done for, uh, Showtime, correct?
	Yes, it was.
	And, in fact, they just showed it for the last time Last night or this morning at 12.35.
	Oh boy.
	But it will come up again, as I understand it, in December on the Showtime Network.
	There are plans for it to be marketed on videocassette.
	And there's a possibility it may be shown theatrically in this country.
	They're discussing that now because the response was so positive to the film.
	Alright, but I assume because it was Showtime, there will not be a videocassette automatically available.
	Is that right?
	No, there are plans to market it as a videocassette.
	But it's not out there yet.
	But it's not out there yet, absolutely correct.
	Alright, fine.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hello, Mr. Randall.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I read your book about three months ago.
	I thought it was an outstanding book.
	Thank you.
	And I was wondering if you've seen the video by Nouriel Hayakawa.
	It's called The Grand Deception UFOs Area 51 in the U.S.
	Government.
	I'm familiar with the video, I haven't seen it yet.
	Okay, this was made in late 91 and according to him in the fall of 95 there's going to be a fake encounter with the aliens in our government trying to prove that the aliens are dangerous and they're going to attack us and that this is going to be, it's kind of a hoax to promote this one world government.
	Have you heard any theories on that?
	No, thank you.
	Well, I think that we have to take a look at the whole phenomenon.
	It's going to be very hard for anybody to fake a sighting for very long.
	There's so many people out there with knowledge in the field that if they try to fake something that it's going to be pretty clear pretty quickly what's going on and there'll be some discussions about it.
	I don't see what benefit our government or anybody's government would derive from that and we can always fall back and say, well, these things have been around for 47 years and they have not Overtly attacked us up to this point, so there's a body of evidence to suggest that we don't need to worry about that.
	Alright, now Representative Schiff in New Mexico is doing an investigation.
	And I wonder where you think that's headed and what we might be able to pry loose with that, Kevin.
	Well, from what Representative Schiff says, he's not looking into Roswell specifically, but looking into the government procedures, which is what the GAO would necessarily do.
	And I know that a number of people have been in communication with the GAO supplying them with information and data and suggesting where they should look.
	What I'm hoping is we will find some kind of documentation that will lead us in the right direction, and the GAO certainly has the powers to get to that documentation.
	We've tried to suggest places for them to look, and I know others have done the same thing.
	So with their clout, there may be something coming down that would suggest Something extremely unusual happened at Roswell.
	All right, very good.
	Back to the phones.
	First-time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hello there.
	No, you're not on the air.
	Let's go to another line.
	Toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Hi, this is Greg from Phoenix, Arizona.
	KFYI.
	Yes, Greg.
	Yeah, I was wondering if Kevin Randall might want to detail the differences between he and Stan Friedman on the details of the Roswell incident.
	I think the major difference between Stanton Friedman's theories and ours is Friedman subscribes to the idea there was a second craft and bodies found over on the plains of San Augustine.
	And we find the evidence suggesting that to be fairly weak.
	It's based almost exclusively on the testimony of, and not even the testimony, but the story told by Barney Barnett, the friend.
	And we have not had an opportunity to Interview Barnett.
	In fact, nobody did.
	He died before the story came out, so we must rely on second-hand testimony there.
	There has been no first-hand corroboration for an event on the planes.
	The one fellow who...
	Talked about first-hand corroboration.
	Gerald Anderson finally admitted that he lied about part of the story and actually created some documents to tend to corroborate his lying about this thing.
	So I think that's the major area where we differ and I think we also differ on the MJ-12 document.
	We believe that the document itself is a hoax and I think believe Yes, ma'am.
	Mr. Friedman believes that the document is authentic.
	So those are the major differences.
	We all agree that there was a crash of an alien craft.
	We agree there was a crash near Roswell, New Mexico, and we agree that bodies were recovered.
	All right, good enough.
	Back to the lines on the toll-free line.
	You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Hello?
	Hi, yes.
	Yes, ma'am, turn your radio off, please.
	Turn your radio off.
	Off.
	Hi, yes.
	I had a question for Kevin Randall.
	Sure, where are you calling from?
	This is Allison from KVI country.
	Okay, Allison.
	I was wondering if there were a sex, did they have any type of sex or how many were there that they found or anything like that?
	And if I could from Art sometime tonight get his BBS, how to get on his BBS?
	All right, thank you.
	Anything with regard to the gender of the beings?
	There were five of them, and we have absolutely nothing on the gender.
	Glenn Dennis, the Roswell mortician, had gotten some information from a nurse that he knew assigned at the Roswell base, and she participated in some of the preliminary autopsy work done at the base, and she said she noticed nothing, no overt sexual characteristics, if you will, She said that it's possible that the doctors who had done some of the work may have been able to distinguish between male and female, but she did not know, so the answer is we have no detailed knowledge on that.
	The answer is you have no answer right now.
	Exactly.
	All right, very good.
	Back to the telephone lines, toll free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Hello there.
	No, I guess not.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	I just wanted to ask, are you going to face any repercussions by talking about this?
	Am I?
	Yeah.
	No, I think that our theory has always been that the people who, for example, were involved in the recovery and were sworn to secrets or whatever, when they talk, They're certainly protected because if the government moves against them, it's a tacit admission that what they were saying was true.
	You can't prosecute somebody for inventing a tale of a flying saucer if there's nothing to it.
	And I think it's sort of the same thing with Don Schmidt and me.
	We are now very visible on that, and if there was any kind of a move against us, To suppress the information that would be a tacit admission that we were going down the right path Their best move at the moment is just to leave us alone There was a movie out a number of years ago where the reporter discovered a real-life vampire He told told a vampire.
	I'm going to tell the world you exist and the vampire said to him go ahead Nobody will believe you anyway And I think that's kinda where we are in the UFO phenomenon.
	The government's attitude is, we'll go ahead, nobody will believe you anyway.
	But eventually we will.
	Eventually, eventually we will convince people because what's happening now...
	And it's kind of what I predicted in the UFO Casebook, is we've moved into the libraries and the archives, and we're beginning to find the documentation to support what we've said.
	For example, we've always maintained there was a secret UFO investigation, not Project Project Blue Book.
	We can now prove that.
	In fact, Air Force Regulation 200-2, as published in August of 1953, says, if you read that as an intelligence officer, and you become involved in a UFO sighting in some fashion, a flight crew reports it to you, whatever, Your obligation is to report it to 4602nd Air Intelligence Service Squadron in Fort Belvoir, Virginia.
	You don't send it to Project Blue Book at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	And so what this does is demonstrate that there was another investigation going on.
	There apparently was coordination between Blue Book and this other investigation.
	But clearly the important cases were going somewhere else.
	We can now demonstrate that.
	Project Moonduct, which we can now demonstrate was a real government project, was involved in UFOs.
	It was also involved in the retrieval of returning space debris of Soviet origin or something
	of that nature.
	Clearly it had another more mundane mission.
	Can you tell us what that project was, Moondust?
	You keep talking about it.
	What did they do?
	Moondust was designed, according to the documentation, in 1953 to debrief captured flight crews.
	It evolved into a project whose one mission was to recover space debris of foreign origin
	or unknown origin, which clearly could mean extraterrestrial.
	UFOs are mentioned in some of the Moondust documents.
	And Moondust was run by the, get this, 4602nd Air Intelligence Service Squadron.
	Later the 1127th Air Activities Group.
	I mean it's the same unit, but Moondust is involved in that.
	That organization is also involved in UFO investigations.
	So Moondust clearly had a mission that revolved around UFOs.
	Now we know That when Senator Jeff Bingaman from New Mexico queried the Air Force about Moondust, the Air Force wrote back and said, now there was never such a project.
	Never existed.
	When we presented the documentation, actually Clifford Stone from Roswell gave the documentation to Bingaman who sent it to the Air Force, the Air Force wrote back, we'd like to amend our last statement.
	There was a project Moondust, but we never used it.
	We can now prove that Moondust went out a number of times.
	Oh, boy.
	So, what I'm saying is, we now have the documentation on our side.
	It's no longer we ufologists running around saying these crazy things about secret government projects and all this.
	We now have the documentation to prove it.
	And we have the lies told by the government documented as well.
	What do you think movies like Roswell and books like your book will eventually produce?
	Well, what we're hoping is the movie, because they followed as closely as they possibly could, keeping in mind it is a movie, the situation, it opens that door to a lot of people who have never heard of Roswell.
	What is Roswell?
	Well, the movie tells you pretty much what it is.
	It doesn't tell you how detailed the information is.
	Our book, because we were very careful in listing the sources, footnoting everything, giving a bibliography that has more than 200 items in it, The list of organizations that participated in the investigation provided us with information.
	All that information is detailed in the book so that when someone comes into this new, they realize the level of investigation.
	It's not Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall, sensationalists, decided that they were going to blow Roswell up into something to make money, but they had actually done a lot of research into it and come to these startling conclusions, if you will.
	So what we have to do is convince the media And convince the public this is an area of legitimacy.
	It's not the area of crackpots and drunks and that sort of thing.
	And I did a radio program just last week and someone called in with his UFO sighting and the host said, well, what were you drinking?
	And I thought, well, that's interesting because here we have the same problem we've always had.
	If you see a flying saucer, you must be drinking something.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Or you must be crazy.
	It's not that, well, gee, maybe you saw something extremely unusual in the sky and you're a sober citizen.
	But the immediate assumption is, what were you drinking?
	And I think what we've got to do is we've got to remove that.
	We've got to prove to people something happened at Roswell, which we can do.
	We have the New York Times, for crying out loud, mentioned the Roswell case on the front page of the July 9, 1947 edition.
	So we can prove something happened there, something crashed.
	We can prove there was a cover-up based on the testimony of many of the participants.
	General Thomas DuBose told us that the balloon was a cover story for General Ramey to get the reporter's office back.
	But he was not to discuss it with Ramey.
	It was a cover-up.
	We can prove that.
	Now, I believe, based on all the people we've talked to and the testimony we've taken, that we can get to the extraterrestrial answer.
	I mean, Edwin Easley told me it was extraterrestrial.
	Oh, that it would be so.
	I hope so, Kevin.
	Hold on, we're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to Dreamland.
	On a Sunday evening, this is Kevin Randall.
	He's talking about the truth about the UFO crash at Roswell.
	The Unknown, this is Dreamland on Talk Radio 102 FM. This is a pre-recorded, previously
	broadcast program. From the Kingdom of Nile, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with
	Art Bell.
	Call Art Now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	1-800-618-TALK. First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	727-1295.
	702-727-1222. Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295. 727-1295 in the 702 area
	code. Now again, here's Art Now again, here's our panel.
	It's widely thought to be the best documented occurrence here on Earth.
	That is to say, whatever it was that crashed at Roswell, New Mexico.
	That's what my guest is talking about this evening.
	His name is Kevin Randall, and he'll be back with more of it in just a moment.
	It's Randall, Kevin?
	Yeah.
	Okay, good.
	Tell everybody, Kevin, how they can get your book.
	Well, it's in the bookstores, of course.
	So if you get to the bookstore, you can do it that way.
	But it's also available through 1-800-462-6420.
	So they can call that toll-free number.
	Give us that number one more time, please.
	1-800-462-6420.
	And they can order it through that number as well.
	David, give us that number one more time, please.
	1-800-462-6420, and they can order it through that number as well.
	How much is it?
	It's $19.95, and I think there's $2 shipping and handling for ordering it that way.
	If you go to the bookstore, you might be able to con them out of a 10% discount or something like that, but it's $19.95.
	All right, very good.
	Back to the telephones now.
	Kevin Randall, the author of The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello there.
	Yeah, this is Steve from Washington.
	Hello, Steve.
	Yeah, I got two questions.
	Probably one for your guest.
	Why isn't there a possibility that that was a smaller craft that collided with the cog that size to take the brief deal?
	And number two is on your alien photo.
	Have you passed it off to a marine biologist?
	Because I believe that photo you have is of a devilfish or a skate.
	It's called a devilfish or a skate.
	Well, uh, look, the photo is soon going to be available to everybody.
	Marine biologists, you, everybody else.
	So, until we, until you see it, it's kind of a hard call, isn't it?
	Well, you described it, what you described, I just saw it at a seashell store up here.
	Okay.
	Very good.
	Well, then, uh, when we get the photo out, you can so declare it, sir.
	Okay.
	Alright?
	Alright, thank you.
	Alright, thank you.
	Uh, Kevin, um, any comments?
	Um...
	I get it.
	He was asking you about the possibility of another craft or a small... Yes, I know.
	And the thing is, we just don't have enough information.
	We've got a field of metallic debris.
	We've got an area, an impact site where craft and bodies were found.
	We don't know what else was picked up there.
	We're basing it on the eyewitness testimony of the people who were involved.
	Until we can get better data, it's very hard to guess exactly why we had such a large field of metallic debris.
	We know it was there because it was described by a number of people, including General Lexon, who flew over it sometime later.
	But we just don't have all the particulars at the moment.
	Is any of that debris available today?
	None of it is in private hands that we've been able to locate.
	Now, we've heard stories from people... Robert Smith, for example, said he knew a sergeant that had a small piece that he'd stuck in a pocket.
	And we've tried to trace that guy down and had no luck finding him.
	Um, there is metallic debris available.
	It came from the Yuba-Tuba sighting from September of 1957.
	And that is currently held in California.
	And a lot of work has been done on that.
	The Center for UFO Studies, for example, in their latest, I think it's the latest issue of the Journal of UFO Studies, details the, the, um, work done on the Yuba-Tuba sample over the last couple of
	decades, and the conclusions are drawn in very scientific terms about all the various
	testing done on it, and that the conclusions drawn, for example, by the Condon Committee
	that they showed that the metal samples were not completely pure just do not make sense in
	good scientific terms.
	So it's something that people ought to take a look at.
	So there is some metallic debris held in private hands that has been tested and suggests that
	That it was something not available on Earth.
	And then, of course, there's all sorts of other types of physical evidence.
	Landing trace cases, where the craft interacts with the environment, photo cases, radar cases, where there's some kind of indirect evidence provided.
	All right, Kevin.
	Back to the telephones now.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	When you were off the air, you were talking about, he was talking about the crash site and then the debris field being 40 miles away.
	That was the part that was blacked out when he had the thunderstorm.
	I was wondering if you could have him explain that further.
	Alright, fine.
	Kevin, you want to roll back over that one more time?
	Best evidence we have, again eyewitness testimony, there's an impact site close to Roswell, 30 miles away from the front gate, just off Highway 285 north out of Roswell.
	The debris field is much closer.
	To the Corona area, the area that Mack Brazel found.
	The debris field is approximately three quarters of a mile long and maybe two to three hundred feet wide filled with metallic debris.
	Now on the debris field we don't have the range of debris you'd expect if a craft had come apart, if an airplane had come apart.
	You'd have a wide range of debris but there only seems to be three or four different items that were found there.
	The wires, the fibers that were described by Bill Brazos is monofilament fishing line, but apparently were fiber optics.
	Some lightweight metal that had the density of balsa wood, and this lead foil or aluminum foil type stuff that when you watered it up it would unfold itself.
	On the impact shot we've got a craft that is heel shaped, about 25 feet long, maybe 15 to 20 feet wide, and five alien bodies.
	Yes.
	Yes, hello.
	Hello, sir.
	I'd like to ask Mr. Randall, what is the reluctance of the government about releasing information that we're not alone in this world?
	I mean, obviously, something like that would have an impact on the way all governments of the Earth Sure.
	Where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Bakersfield, California.
	Bakersfield.
	All right, Kanziara.
	Kevin, what about it?
	What about this reluctance?
	What do you attribute it to?
	Would it be the social disruption that would be caused?
	I think that's part of it.
	I think part of it is the natural inertia of the government to declassify anything that has been classified.
	I think part of it is studies done by the government that suggest that if we announced that there were alien civilizations, there would be some sort of a reaction by the people.
	I know that the Brookings Institution did a study in 1962 where they interviewed Representatives of various disciplines, such as anthropologists, economists, theologians.
	What would happen if there was a confrontation between people of Earth and an alien race?
	Right.
	Not necessarily face-to-face, but through radio astronomy, and they determined it would be disastrous for our society.
	We believe that the reason it was originally classified was they didn't know what they were dealing with.
	There's a line in the Roswell movie that I absolutely love, where they're sitting around talking about this, and one of the generals said, well, the people would think that we're not in control of the skies.
	And the Secretary of Defense says, and they'd be right.
	And so that may be part of it as well.
	But we also understand that when they were attempting to hide things, the government, the military, the government representatives went in and threatened people.
	Frankie Rowe, who was 12 at the time, was told that if she ever talked about what she'd seen, she'd be taken out in the desert and she wouldn't come home.
	Glenn Dennis, the Roswell mortician, was told they would be picking his bones out of the sand.
	The Chavis County Sheriff was told that not only would he be killed, but the entire family would be eliminated.
	So there was a large number of civil rights violations that were involved in this as well.
	And I just read a couple of interesting things that Ken Jeffries sent to me that dealt with the hiding of the fact that there may have been living American POWs left behind in Vietnam and Laos when the war ended in the early 70s.
	And that was one of the questions that came up.
	Why do they continue to hide this stuff?
	And Hodding Carter III, in an article that he did, said it makes no sense to continue to classify stuff when the Soviet Union has collapsed, that the Cold War has ended, and yet we continue to classify stuff and hold things classified that clearly have no relevance in the world today.
	Why do you think we're doing that?
	Do you think it's just... Nobody makes a decision.
	Nobody wants to decide this should be released and this shouldn't be released.
	We found evidence of a First Aid manual that talked about mouth-to-mouth resuscitation that had been classified during the Second World War, still being classified.
	For God's sake, we're so far beyond mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, it's unbelievable, yet that stuff is still classified.
	and it's costing us billions of dollars a year to hold this stuff in class
	at the levels of classification they're held at when they have absolutely no relevance and so if they're
	doing that with things that have no relevance what about the stuff
	that could have an impact on our civilization and our society like an
	announcement that there are uh... that we have been visited by beings from another
	planet Absolutely right.
	All right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Good evening.
	This is Mark from COGO in San Diego.
	Hi, Mark.
	I wanted to ask Kevin if he found any evidence of what, I guess, what Richard Hoagland would say is hyperdimensionality and any sort of double-inscribed tetrahedron.
	and if there could be any connection with the structures on the moon.
	All right, thank you.
	Are you familiar with the research of Richard Hogle?
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	There is, again, we have found absolutely no connections between Roswell and the structures on the moon or the face
	on Mars, which doesn't mean there aren't any.
	We just haven't found them and that's not an area that we've really gone into because it's very hard to draw those conclusions without some kind of additional information provided by what was found at Roswell.
	My belief is that there's a 95% probability that what was found at Roswell was extraterrestrial.
	Well, there's probably a 4% chance that it was an interdimensional type of craft.
	It's still extraterrestrial, if you will, but not the classic nuts and bolts explanation we would think.
	And then there's probably about a 1% chance that it's time travelers from the Earth's future.
	So, clearly we're dealing with something extremely unusual that has no basis in our society, but comes from outside.
	But I think the most logical explanation, based on the evidence that we have, is it's extraterrestrial, meaning interstellar, as opposed to interdimensional or something else.
	Alright, very good.
	Let's keep moving.
	There are a lot of people talking about this interdimensional business now.
	And it seems, frankly, as likely as it does that they, you know, come from someplace else to me.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Oh, yeah.
	Hi.
	I'm calling from KOP Eland.
	Yes, up in California.
	Yes, sir.
	OK.
	Now, this thing that happened in Albuquerque last night at the convention center, they're supposed to be, it was advertised as intergalactic reception, kind of sort of like, perhaps like If enough of us Earthlings would call forth them to come in.
	Now, this took place yesterday.
	Now, are you aware of this, Kevin?
	Yes, I was.
	Alright, what is this story?
	Well, it was just a gathering that they had in Albuquerque, and we thought we were going to have an opportunity to actually be there, and it just didn't work out for us, given everything else that was going on this week that we had to do.
	Um, but we were aware that there was that organization meeting going on in Albuquerque.
	Why, do you know, what were they formed for?
	What did they do?
	Uh, that I don't know.
	Huh.
	Odd.
	Um, alright, very good.
	Uh, let's keep moving here.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hello.
	Radio Free America.
	Hello.
	Uh, I've got two questions, Art.
	One would be, uh, what the witnesses described as the aliens to look like.
	And the other is, on the 48 hours piece that was talking about Roswell, the witness said that she had seen the form of the metal poured out like a liquid.
	My question is, how would something that is made of that molecular structure break up if it could form itself into a liquid?
	And I'll listen to your answer.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Very good.
	She said that it unfolded itself with a fluid motion, like water flowing.
	That's her description of how it unfolded itself.
	I don't think there was a suggestion that the metal actually turned into any kind of liquid.
	It was merely her perception of how it reformed itself.
	What was the other question?
	I'm sorry, he's gone now.
	Yeah, you don't remember either.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Usually I do better than that.
	I lost the first part listening to the second part.
	All right.
	I'm terribly sorry, caller.
	We both blew it off.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Martin up in Anchorage.
	Hi, Martin.
	Anchorage, Alaska, yes.
	Great, thanks.
	Yeah, I got about 50 questions.
	I'll narrow it to about two or three.
	The origin of these folks, I'd like you to give us your opinion on that.
	You touched on time travel.
	I think that, excuse me, that's an interesting aspect.
	And one that if they're not from our future, if they have the capacity to time travel, then just about anything is possible.
	I'd like you to comment on that.
	Also, Bob Lazar, what do you think of him?
	Let me leave you on the line, and Kevin, deal with what you remember.
	Well, I actually remember the other question.
	I know what they look like.
	That's right, that's right.
	The time travel aspect, I think, is one that is fascinating, but it leads to all kinds of additional problems, and I think that it's probably unlikely that that's what we're dealing with here, our time traveling.
	It's just one of the possibilities, and I think there's a very remote possibility that that's what we're dealing with here.
	What else would you like to know?
	Where do you think they would be from, then?
	There is nothing that we have that gives us a clue based on the evidence we got from Roswell and what the witnesses could tell us about it.
	The only clue that I've ever heard that suggests anything, of course, was the Betty Hill star map that suggested Theta 1, Theta 2, the reticuli.
	And I don't think that's a real good clue.
	It's an interesting clue, but I don't think it's a very good one.
	So we really don't know where they're from.
	The question becomes, if you can travel interstellar distances, does the length of the trip become
	relevant?
	In other words, is it as easy to travel 8 or 10 light years as it would be 100 light
	years or 200 light years?
	And if that's the case, then of course it could be from practically anywhere.
	If I was to speculate, I would speculate that probably within 40 light years of Earth, and
	there's a number of very good star systems around, or stars around, that are biologically
	like the sun that would suggest that's maybe where they're from but it's all very speculative.
	Yes, of course you have the wide testimony of people calling them greys and of course
	Bob Lazar's testimony saying that they're from Zeta Reticuli and all that of course.
	I think that the thing with the greys, the beings found at Roswell clearly were not greys.
	To get back to the other caller's question briefly is they were four and a half to five
	and a half feet tall, the head slightly larger than human heads, the heart slightly larger
	than human eyes but not big black orbs.
	The bones were very thin and fragile, described as bird-like.
	They were very thin individuals.
	They had no hair but they had the peach fuzz.
	There's a real quick description of what we've been told.
	All right.
	By our standards, then, that would make them very fragile beings, wouldn't it?
	They seem to be very fragile, yes.
	But again, without better information from the autopsy, I mean, we talked about the outward structures and what they look like.
	Still, somehow, it's nice to think of them as, by human standards, kind of glass-jawed.
	the internal structures and things like that.
	I think Len Springfield has done some work that suggested they had a big heart-lung pumping
	station that pumped the clear fluid through the bodies, but they didn't have the separate
	organs like we do for the heart and the lung.
	But we have very limited information on that.
	Still somehow it's nice to think of them as, by human standards, kind of glass-jawed.
	In other words, we could take one swipe at them and probably knock them across the room
	and break several bones.
	The question I like to speculate on is, if you're an alien race and you want to introduce
	yourself to another civilization, what is the most non-threatening way of doing it?
	And of course it's with a crashed ship and dead bodies, because it proves that you're fallible.
	And of course the problem with that theory is, well they tried it in New Mexico, it was covered up by the government, why didn't they try it somewhere else where it couldn't have been covered up by the government?
	You know, there's interesting areas to speculate in, but it doesn't really get us very far.
	So we're dealing with information specifically about the crashed craft and the bodies, and when we start doing some of the other work, we're getting into areas of speculation.
	All right, Kevin, very good.
	Back of the phone lines on the wildcard line.
	You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Good evening.
	My name is Steve, and I'm from San Diego Kogo Radio.
	Excellent, Steve.
	I wanted to ask you, How about the intimidation that seems to go hand-in-hand with these type of sightings with Roswell, and what was the level of government intimidation?
	And also, what level of administration, what level have people such as yourself advanced the cause to get this administration to open up the books or Freedom of Information Act?
	What we've done, the Freedom of Information Act, I just counted up the number of ones I've filed myself just yesterday because I was filing a couple more.
	Freedom of Information gets you to a point and then the government, if they don't want to answer, they say, well we have no documents, if you feel that this answer is not right you can appeal or we can either confirm or deny the existence of these documents and you have to appeal and you end up in a court.
	So they can pretty well shut you down if they don't want to talk to you about that.
	The intimidation, clearly, many of the civilians who had some knowledge of it were threatened by the government.
	If they talked about it, they would be killed.
	If Frankie Rowe, for example, was alone on that, she was 12 years old when this took place.
	The government came, the military people came to her house.
	Told her that if she ever talked about it, she'd be taken out in the desert now you can say well
	She was 12 years old. She misunderstood what was being said to her. She overreacted to it, but she's not alone
	There was Glenn Dennis who was 22 years old. There's the sheriff's family who remembered these events
	So there was a level of intimidation that was directed at the civilians
	The military people were reminded that they had taken various oaths that they were cleared for classified
	material And as if they talked about it, they could end up in jail.
	All right. What about you Kevin?
	I mean, you're writing about this, you're digging into it.
	At what point during the investigation did a couple of guys in suits come to you and say, all right, Kevin, cool it, you know, or you're going to be in the desert?
	Well, I always thought what the military would do is call me to active duty and say, here's the stuff.
	It's classified.
	You can't talk about it.
	Tough luck.
	And then Don would be out there by himself with me just saying, well, if I was you, I'd look at that sort of thing.
	But again, if they do that sort of thing, that it's a tacit admission that what we're doing is accurate and correct and the best move is to leave us alone.
	Uh, and that's exactly what they're doing.
	So time has taken care of a lot for them.
	Yeah, I think so.
	And again, this buoyantly orchestrated cover story that they started, and the curtain of ridicule that they've pushed down on UFO sighters, Works wonders for us.
	The Chicago Tribune, for example... No, we're going to have to hold it there, Kevin.
	We'll come back to that point.
	It does work wonders, there is no question.
	This is Dreamland on a Sunday evening.
	I'm Art Bell.
	More in a moment.
	So I am.
	All right.
	Is there anything that I have neglected thus far to ask you about that really is important to get out?
	I think one of the things we need to look at is the emergent theory that what was found at Roswell, specifically on the Mack-Brasel debris field, was nothing more extraordinary than a Project Mogul balloon.
	That seems to be the latest theory that surfaced in the last few weeks.
	What is a Project Mogul balloon?
	Project Mogul was a constant level balloon project designed specifically to put an instrument package up in the atmosphere.
	To monitor the Soviet experimentation with atomic weapons.
	And these were launched in June, some of them were launched in July of 1947.
	And the emerging theory by some is that what was founded by Brasel was nothing more extraordinary than this Project Mogul balloon.
	Well, what they've really done is reinvent the balloon explanation.
	They've ignored a large body of testimony to get to that point, accepted some testimony from three specific witnesses, Bessie Brazel Schreiber, Jason Callahan, and a fellow identified only as reluctant, but without good evidence to support it.
	But more importantly, the documentation available shows that They believe it was Balloon Launch No.
	9, but they cannot prove there was any Balloon Launch No.
	9.
	And there's some documentation that came out of Project Sign in the Cambridge Research Station, run by the Air Materiel Command, dated April of 1949, that also fails to mention any Balloon Launch No.
	9.
	So we've built a foundation for this Project Mogul Balloon on Uh, Will of the Wisps, if you will.
	There's no solid evidence that there was a Balloon Launch No.
	9 that would account for the Brasel Ranch, yet there are people who accept Balloon Launch No.
	9 as the explanation for at least the debris field that was found by Roswell, uh, found by Brasel.
	Alright, um, back to the phones.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Where are you, sir?
	Out of Seattle.
	Seattle, all right.
	Okay.
	My question is, I saw the movie and read the book.
	And in the movie, the Townsend character tells him that one of the occupants lived and passed on information.
	I want to know how much truth or fiction that they've been able to ascertain to that.
	And, well, let's just go with that.
	Alright, let's just go with that.
	Good.
	Kevin?
	We have some testimony, second hand, that one survived.
	And we put that information in the book because we thought it was important for people to hear that testimony that one may have survived the crash.
	We have since learned from another witness, an eyewitness, found by Don Ecker, that he believes one survived the crash.
	So we're getting a larger body of evidence that one survived.
	Presently, or to be grammatically correct, at the present, we believe that all were killed in the crash, but there is a growing body of testimony that suggests one may have survived, and we're looking into that.
	Alright, I've got a lot of faxes here.
	Here's one of them, Kevin.
	It's a two-part question.
	Two things bother me about the testimony of Steve McKenzie.
	He said he was an intelligence officer, a radar operator, and a key person at the crash site.
	From what I know of the military, people are pigeonholed into specific roles.
	How could McKenzie do all these things?
	Well, the readers misunderstood, probably because we didn't make it clear.
	McKenzie was not a radar operator.
	He was an intelligence Officer who had been sent to monitor the operation or monitor the radars at White Sand.
	And all he was doing was watching what was going on.
	He was not a radar operator.
	But when you move into the intelligence field, oftentimes people are put in a lot of different situations to monitor things and prepare reports.
	But the idea that McKenzie wasn't in fact a radar operator is something that others have questioned us on, and so it's clear from the book that we made a mistake in not clarifying that he was not a radar operator personally.
	All right, good.
	McKenzie said the military was monitoring strange objects on radar just prior to the crash.
	And he was ordered to watch the radar at all times.
	He said that even he had to rig a set of mirrors to watch the radar screen when he went to the bathroom.
	Seems to me like it would be really hard to see any detail on the radar screen from a distance through mirrors.
	Again, that's my fault.
	When McKenzie told me the story, what popped into my mind was the system of mirrors that was used in the movie Real Genius when they were trying to get the laser to bounce outside the house.
	Right.
	What he said was, And he's made this clear to me since then, many, many times.
	What he said was there was one mirror they put up because there was a warning light.
	If something happened in the radar room, the operator or somebody would flip the switch and a warning light would go on to show which screen was active and what was going on.
	And the mirror was set up so that they could see that warning light in case it came on.
	That was a mistake that I made and shouldn't be blamed on.
	Very good of you to admit it.
	This is from John in Portland.
	And finally, if the crash and cleanup had been going on for two days before the press release, if they wanted to keep it secret, why would they make the whole thing even more visible by issuing a press release that they had captured a flying disc?
	It seems that, according to the information we have, that the information was leaking out.
	Brazel had been into town.
	He talked about it to Frank Joyce.
	Joyce had put it on the radio.
	There were rumors flying around Roswell at this time, and what they were attempting to do was suppress those rumors.
	What they did was they set up a straw man.
	Yeah, we have a flying saucer.
	Three hours later, they said, we made a mistake.
	These clowns in Roswell aren't smart enough to tell the difference between a balloon and a real flying saucer and it killed the story right
	there.
	At that point the story was dead, nobody was questioning anything, everybody was laughing
	at the clowns in Roswell.
	It was a brilliantly conceived operation.
	I'm amazed that they actually thought of it, but if you take a look at what happened, it
	worked brilliantly and would still be working today if Jesse Marcel had not spoken to a
	number of people about handling pieces of a flying saucer.
	Alright, this is from Jeff in St.
	Louis.
	Would the citing information on Roswell be available to anybody under the Freedom of Information Act?
	In other words, how much would anybody who filed get?
	Once you mention the word Roswell, you've kind of given it away, what you're looking for, and you're dead in the water.
	You have to go at it in sort of a clever way, not suggesting you want Roswell.
	We have not found anything through Freedom of Information that would provide any documentable proof that Roswell took place.
	Although, I guess I should qualify that, there was a Freedom of Information Act request that went in against the FBI.
	And the FBI released a whole raft of documents, and hidden in the documents were that handwritten note by J. Edgar Hoover about the discs recovered and the Army not allowing the FBI to see them.
	So there was a hint there.
	We still don't know exactly what that means, but what we've done is, through Freedom of Information, is provide us with the information on Project Moondust.
	It's provided us with other links between Moondust and UFOs and things like that.
	So, the Freedom of Information works to a certain extent, but it doesn't give us all
	the answers we want.
	You've got to kind of approach it stealthily.
	Yes, and the other thing is to get the information, they say, now you have to be as clear as possible.
	and specific is what you want so they know where to look for the documentation.
	We requested specific things.
	For example, Jay West told us about a map that was at Holloman Air Force Base that supposedly
	showed two sites on it, the debris field and the impact site.
	And of course we put a fire request in at Holloman to get a hold of that map and they
	and we can't find any file.
	And if you perceive this answer as being non-responsive, then you can appeal it to the Air Force.
	They'll look at it.
	If they find the same way, then you're forced into court, and it costs you money.
	All right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hello.
	Hi. This is Ted from KVI.
	Just in relation to what you were talking about a little bit earlier, there was a couple of very interesting calls on the Laura Lee program.
	Last night you might want to call her and verify with, but to relate it, it was a couple of people that had connections with people in the service.
	One had been an actual member of the service and mentioned something about the black helicopters and he said that there's a An area somewhere down there in the southwest that they do
	specific training in regards to it and they are unmarked helicopters and they very frequently
	go abroad or through domestic places and cordon off various areas and do various exercises. All
	right. And the second call was in relation to kind of on a couple of different levels but
	dealing with the far-fetched the hollow earth theory or dealing with that
	there is an underground type of civilization or different cities and whatnot connecting
	like also with area 51 and some various tunnels and stuff going on. All right. But he
	related that there was is a...
	Alright, alright.
	Well, there are many of those.
	Kevin, what do you know about this tunnel business?
	There have been stories for years now about underground tunnels.
	and the government was kind of doing this type of thing, but they were, it was very
	bizarre kind of calls.
	All right, all right.
	Well, there are many of those.
	Kevin, what do you know about this tunnel business?
	There have been stories for years now about underground tunnels.
	Anything to it?
	Well, that and the hidden bases, I guess, is all part of that.
	I have seen no evidence that would convince me that this takes place.
	I'd like to see some better evidence.
	But, and until I do, you know, you have to kind of sit back and say, well, it's interesting.
	And if you prove that the UFOs, flying saucers, can get here from another planet and some of this stuff makes more sense because you don't have to leap that one hurdle to get here.
	But at this point, I'm afraid a bit skeptical on that.
	All right.
	From Greg in Seattle.
	Why weren't the archaeologists who were near the crash site presented in the movie?
	They didn't reference them in the movie.
	I think that was probably just it.
	There was only so much they could do in the movie.
	And, you know, frankly, I would have liked to see them do a lot more in the movie.
	Everybody I've talked to seems to wish the movie had been longer.
	All right.
	The end of the movie, Jesse, you remember the gentleman who met with Jesse Marcel in the Empty Hanger?
	That was the Townsend character, Martin Sheen, yes.
	Is there any indication that really occurred?
	No, that is like the reunion that Jesse Marcel was at.
	That was created to build a framework for the film and provide information in the film.
	Alright, well it is important to know where they took Dramatic License.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Alright, good.
	Let's go back to the phones.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, this is Brian up in Tacoma, Washington.
	Hello Brian.
	Hi, I'm just curious, this material they found at Roswell, did it have a radar cross section?
	I'm an air traffic controller, have been for 10 years, and I looked at Mount Rainier every night, and I've never seen anything.
	Nothing weird out of the ordinary, and I don't know any other controllers that have.
	I can go the same direction.
	I was an Army helicopter pilot.
	I don't know anybody who is an Army helicopter pilot who saw anything out of the ordinary.
	Although, to be perfectly honest, we did change the black helicopter in Cambodia once.
	But I don't think it has any relevance to the black helicopters we were talking about.
	One of the theories that have been postulated is what crashed at Roswell was really a flying wing, because the flying wing form has a very small radar cross-section.
	And that was the big secret at Roswell.
	Not that it was a flying wing, but because it detracted from radar.
	But I think our stealth technology kind of eliminates part of that problem.
	And the materials at Roswell, we describe them as metal, but they may not have had the same reflective capability of of of uh... real metal
	but but again mckinsey and others said that they had watched it object for a
	number of days on radar so we've got some problems
	we simply just don't have information on uh... so we have to speculate in various arenas
	All right, and this comes from Dan.
	I like this kind of question from Phoenix.
	Art, it is inconceivable to me that as large as a crash site was, that every piece of wreckage was recovered.
	No matter how many people policed the area, I'm sure something was missed.
	Most likely some things were buried and likely still are.
	How about going out there with bulldozers, digging up the place?
	Yes, I realize nearly 50 years have passed, but I'm sure it would be well worth the effort if the evidence is found.
	Well, first of all, we've already sort of done that.
	Clearly, stuff was missed because Bill Brazel found little bits and pieces of debris for the next couple of years and had a cigar box full of them that the military finally came and took away from him after he'd mentioned that he had them.
	We performed what would be the first scientific expedition to the debris field in 1989.
	We sunk more than 200 holes based on an archaeological grid system searching for any kind of material.
	We dug up the yucca plants that looked like they were 40 years old to see if there was anything trapped in the root system.
	We looked at the sinkholes.
	We looked in the caves.
	We looked all over.
	We found nothing.
	Does it mean there's nothing there?
	No, you have to go look.
	We have attempted to do that and we'd like to get back and do it again.
	The one thing we have to remember is this is a working ranch.
	We had to dodge the cattle and the sheep that were on the ranch because it's a working ranch and there's only certain times of the year we get access to the property to do so.
	What is the attitude of the present property owner?
	The property owner has been very cooperative but the one problem we ran into is Some kid trespassed on his property, not related to this at all, trespassed on the property, was riding his horse, fell off it, broke his arm, and then sued the property owner.
	Oh.
	And it cost the property owner $50,000.
	Of course.
	You know, this makes no sense to me at all.
	It's like the lady that scolded herself on the coffee in McDonald's and got $2 million.
	For God's sake, lady, it's hot coffee.
	You should have known that.
	But that sort of thing happens, so that inhibits what we can do.
	But the property owner has been very cooperative with us, as long as we don't interfere with the operations of the ranch.
	And we've been very careful to do that, to not to do that, not to interfere.
	And we've been very careful to leave nothing behind us when we leave, so we're not leaving garbage and trash around.
	Sure.
	All right.
	On the wild card line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Yes, sir.
	This is Greg from TEX, Portland, Oregon.
	Yes, Greg.
	I was wondering if your guest is familiar with the three books by Charles Strieber, Majestic, Communion, Transformation, and I wonder why I never hear any of the UFOlogists.
	My God, that would be Whitley Strieber.
	Yeah, Whitley Strieber, that's what it is.
	Well, first of all, Majestic was a work of fiction.
	And so we can eliminate that right there.
	And it's clearly a work of fiction and Streber makes no bones about the fact of being a work of fiction.
	The other two books deal with the abduction phenomenon.
	What Don and I have been doing for the last five years clearly is investigating the case at Roswell and staying away from the abduction phenomenon as much as we possibly can.
	There are others who are better versed in that.
	John Mack.
	About Hopkins, for example.
	Yeah, I had John Mack up on here a couple of weeks ago.
	There are a lot of people, Kevin, who feel the abduction thing is the best line of research to now follow to try to prove something.
	I take it you're more of a nuts and bolts kind of guy.
	Our feeling is, if we can establish Roswell took place, meaning it was an extraterrestrial spacecraft, then the work done by Bud Hopkins and John Mack follows that much easier.
	They don't have to leap that first hurdle of proving that UFOs are extraterrestrial.
	We've done that for them, and they can get on and do the work that they need to do, and we can find out what the hell is going on.
	Alright, good.
	Wild Card Line, make that toll-free line.
	You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Well, Art, I'm privileged.
	This is Tom in Mace, Arizona, KFYI.
	Hi, Tom.
	And I want to ask Kevin what sort of methods of propulsion he may suspect they use.
	It's certainly not conventional, Newtonian, you know, throw rocks and go the opposite direction.
	I really have no clues about the propulsion.
	We have No evidences for that at all.
	I do know that Marcel, when he had an opportunity to use a Geiger counter, could find no evidence of radioactivity.
	I also know that James Van Allen told me that if you move a spacecraft through space at near relativistic speeds, that you are in essence bombarding it with hydrogen atoms and the craft itself should become radioactive.
	There's no evidence that that happened.
	When we get into the idea of propulsion, we just simply don't know.
	So are you suggesting then that any craft that had moved through the kind of space it would have moved through to come here, would have at least produced something above, or should have produced something above background radiation levels?
	There should be, the craft itself should become irradiated as it moves through space at near relativistic speeds.
	Unless there's something else going on that we don't understand, and I assume that's what's happening, because very few cases is there any kind of radioactivity associated with the craft, whether it is the propulsion system or the fact it's been bombarded by the hydrogen atoms as it moves through space.
	Alright, this is going to have to be a quick answer.
	Chris in Everett, Washington wants to know about something reported in the LA Times regarding a UFO fired on by the military, allegedly.
	Have you heard of that?
	There's a number of cases where the military has fired on UFOs.
	I don't know whether it's a recent case or something.
	This was some time ago, supposedly in Los Angeles.
	So you don't know anything specifically about that.
	There was a case out of Cannon Air Force Base in New Mexico where two F-4s tried to intercept a UFO and they came back and landed at the base and were isolated on the flight line and apparently had all kinds of little tiny holes in them.
	Alright, hold it there.
	Hold it there, Kevin.
	We'll be back.
	This is Dreamland.
	Station for Central Illinois.
	This is Talk Radio 102 FM.
	From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
	Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
	727-1295.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295, 727-1295, in the 702 area code.
	Now again, here's Art Bell.
	Good evening, everybody.
	Talking about the truth, uh, with regard to the UFO crash at Boswell with Kevin Randall, co-author of a book by that same name.
	We'll get back to him in just a moment.
	If I gave up... At 1-800-400-1999.
	Do it between 8 in the morning and 8 at night, please, Mountain Time.
	9 9 Do it between 8 the morning and 8 at night, please Mountain
	Time 1 800 400 1 9 9 9
	And then there is one more item that I'm back on the air again
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Alright.
	Um, here's yet another fax, um, from, uh, St.
	Louis County.
	I have wondered for some time about the involvement of Secretary James Forrestal in the Roswell crash and investigation.
	Of course, Mr. Forrestal was the one in the movie who received the mental message from the one living alien through the glass.
	I recall that.
	He saw, according to the movie, that more were coming.
	Mr. Forrestal went from sanity to reportedly uncontrollably paranoid behavior.
	Um, that somebody was out to get him.
	In the movie, the twelve men sitting around the table discussed the plans of whether or not to tell the people.
	Mr. Forrestal seemed to express the feeling that we should all be told the truth.
	Is that roughly accurate?
	Well, what we know clearly is in July of 1947, the War Department and the Navy Department were combined into the Department of Defense, and Forrestal, who had been the Secretary of the Navy, became the first Secretary of Defense.
	He was in a position to know everything in 1947.
	He would have been told.
	We don't know how much else he may have known.
	Uh, from that point.
	So, again, if you remember in the movie, this was Townsend telling Marcel what was going on, and then Townsend said to Marcel, well then none of it's true.
	Well, maybe some of it's true.
	So what we're getting there is the idea that this disinformation has been fed into the public.
	Remember the general sitting around saying, well, we can tell them the real story from less than credible sources.
	Yes.
	We can plant stories.
	So they're showing that all of this is going on.
	So we just don't know exactly what Forrestal's involvement was or how much he knew.
	But clearly, he was one of the people at the top who should have known.
	And General Nixon, I think, even identified him as one of the people who knew.
	Alright, did his mental deterioration, was there a deterioration?
	The story is he committed suicide.
	That would suggest there was a mental deterioration, but we don't know what... We as laymen don't know exactly what caused that deterioration.
	All right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Salt Lake City, KCNR.
	KCNR.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	We're well aware of it.
	That's true of every telephone system, not just the 800 number.
	Well, yes, but that would make people angry because they'd be on hold for a long time, so we just go ahead and do it this way, sir.
	Anyway, sir, you are on the air now, so go ahead.
	I got a good line three times.
	Anyway sir, you are on the air now, so go ahead.
	Fine, I understand it.
	Uh, Mr. Randall?
	Yes?
	Couple of questions.
	One is, the radio announcer said that he knew things that he had determined not to talk about.
	Now, Frank Joyce, yes.
	In the movie.
	And also, what connection do you feel this has to the not-so-famous crash site on the plains of San Agustin?
	I think, first of all, Frank Joyce has said all along that Mack Brazell told him stuff and he doesn't want to put words in a dead man's mouth and won't tell us what Brazell may have told him in that first interview.
	So we just don't know.
	My personal opinion is there was no crash on the plane to San Agustin.
	That story came about because of the Barney Barnett testimonies offered from his friends and that they may have understood what he was talking about.
	Our opinion is that Barney Barnett came in contact with the archaeologist led by Curry Holden.
	Barnett, in his capacity as a soil conservation engineer, would have been dealing with the archaeological and the anthropological communities.
	And at some point, he ran into this story, and it has been inadvertently changed into a story he heard from people, into one that he was a participant in.
	The evidence from the diary, for example, that his wife kept, puts him outside of the realm of It's implausible that he was directly involved.
	We don't believe there was an event on the plane to Santa Carta.
	We believe that was a mistake, an inadvertent mistake, not a conscious mistake, made by the original investigators.
	All right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall, top of the evening.
	Hello.
	Hello there, sir.
	Yes, you're on the air.
	Where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Ellingsburg, Washington.
	All right, go right ahead.
	I'd like to ask you if I may be standing corrected.
	1967 and 1968, or maybe 1966, 1967, Incut Bank, and Sunburst, Montana.
	Do you ever do any research on any of that?
	Uh, no, I have not.
	Okay, well then it's now worth bringing up to.
	I'm also a private investigator.
	I've been an investigator for about 36 to 37 years, okay?
	And I was just going to bring up some questions on some of the things that they had there on the UFOs that were supposedly landing there.
	All right, well, since we're not familiar with that particular incident, sir, I'm sorry.
	Right now we can't follow up on it, but we may have a guest who can shortly.
	Hello there on the wildcard line.
	You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hello, Art.
	This is Bill calling from Seattle.
	Hi, Bill.
	Hi there.
	I have two quick questions.
	First question is, I have talked with this subject to a skeptic uncle of mine, and he always asks me, well, how could the entire world government cover this phenomenon up?
	And my second question is, are people in Roswell still being threatened today?
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Part one is we don't know that the entire world governments are covering it up.
	It may be just our government who is in possession of the information.
	But it's a good question.
	Is there some kind of conspiracy among the government to keep this hushed up?
	Clearly!
	I think, Kevin, his question is more general, not just with respect to Roswell, but the whole UFO phenomenon.
	If it were real, how could all of these governments worldwide be covering it up?
	And then the answer is the Belgians, of course, were just out with the sightings there in the early part of this decade, talking about it.
	They may not be in possession of all the data our government is in possession of.
	And a lot of the government, the French government, takes a much More serious look at the UFO phenomenon.
	By the way, while we're on the subject, there was an Associated Press report in the last week or two, Kevin, that the Chinese government called for an investigation into the whole UFO phenomenon.
	Had you heard anything about that?
	No, I had not heard that.
	Alright, well I believe that that is accurate, and I'm going to try to find out more.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hello there.
	Are you there?
	Yes, I am.
	All right.
	Well, speak up.
	Where are you?
	I'm sorry.
	I'm Kevin Randall.
	I'm trying to... Turn your radio off, sir.
	It's off.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry.
	I was listening to the radio.
	It must be delayed.
	My question was, I understand when Jimmy Carter was president, He was trying to get some information on UFOs and a point blank said, sorry, you're not entitled to that information.
	We're not going to let you have it.
	And also Barry Goldwater tried to get some hang around in a Right there in Ohio.
	We don't care who you are.
	You're not allowed in here.
	We have to take it at different levels.
	First of all, Barry Goldwater requested the information of Curtis LeMay.
	Barry Goldwater was a major general in the Air Force Reserve.
	LeMay, of course, was a four-star general and told him he was entitled to the information.
	LeMay could make that stick.
	Carter was not told he couldn't have the information.
	I believe Carter was convinced that he shouldn't talk about the information.
	And that was why there was nothing more that came from Carter.
	But as the President, you have the power to get anywhere you want in the government.
	That was my understanding.
	That's why I was wondering when you mentioned, well, the government, who exactly are we talking about here that's withholding this information if someone as high up as the President is trying to gain access?
	I think the problem is, for example, the current President, Bill Clinton, probably has no desire to get this information because he's got other problems.
	Carter supposedly wanted to get the information, and it's my understanding that he did get it, and they convinced him it was best that he keep quiet.
	I don't know what they told him.
	That's our understanding.
	Now, he was questioned about that on a radio program in L.A.
	when he was out promoting his book after his presidency had ended, and that question came up.
	You were going to release all this information.
	You didn't do it.
	Why not?
	And his answer was supposedly because the investigation was ongoing, and he didn't want to release the information prematurely.
	That's my understanding of what he said, but he did get access to the information.
	Kevin, I always like to ask UFO investigators this, and I'm going to ask you.
	If you had the smoking gun, or laid your hands on the smoking gun, and all of a sudden, boom, boom, boom, knock on your door, a couple of guys in suits, look Mr. Randall.
	Yes, you've uncovered the truth, but look, we have study after study, Mr. Randall, that shows if you release this information with all it implies to the general public, there's going to be panic, there's going to be social disruption, a lot of our institutions are going to fall, and we're asking you, Mr. Randall, as a matter of national security, to keep your mouth shut.
	What are you going to do?
	I have, my first question is, prove it.
	That those events are going to happen.
	And my second question to them is, what happens if one lands tomorrow at the United Nations and you can no longer control the information?
	Isn't it better for me to provide the people with the answer that yes, one crashed in Roswell
	47 years ago, that UFOs do exist, and they sit back and they say, well it happened 47
	years ago, it hasn't affected my life, why should I panic?
	But if one lands there tomorrow, they no longer have that cushion.
	Isn't it better for me to continue on with my investigation and provide that cushion
	rather than leaving it in the hands of somebody else that may change everything tomorrow and
	may cause a disaster for our civilization?
	Okay, so in other words, you would question the studies that would show that disruption.
	Let me then try it one more way and then I'll give up and we'll go on with the call.
	Okay, Mr. Randall, you have the smoking gun, but we're here to tell you that if you go anywhere with it, if you talk to the media, if you keep going the way you're going, you are going to end up in the desert Not to ever be heard from again.
	I think you've now convinced me.
	Or better yet, how about you give me $10,000,000 and I've never heard the term flying saucer.
	Oh, Kevin.
	If you're going to take me out and kill me, then I might as well get some money out of the deal.
	I understand.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Yeah.
	There's a contradiction brought out in the evidence here.
	All right, where are you, sir?
	Maybe I'm just dense, I don't know.
	That's all right, where are you?
	Fairbanks.
	Fairbanks, Alaska, all right.
	Yeah, but all the debris that had broken into small pieces in the body supposedly appeared to be very fragile.
	Okay, it's been showed that these pieces were hard to cut, couldn't be cut, whatever.
	How come it could have busted into so many small pieces?
	And, you know, if the answer is, well, he was such impact and force, then why wasn't, well, in the bodies, um, why weren't they just so much squashed tomatoes?
	All right, all right, we'll tackle that.
	Well, I believe the answer to that would be there was a debris field and then supposedly a second site at which the main body of the craft with the bodies was found, correct?
	Yes.
	Yeah, that may explain it right there.
	Frankly, we don't have a good answer for that question.
	All we can do is report on the testimony that we've been given and look at that, and it may be that there was some kind of outer shell that was shed by this thing that accounts for the debris field, and the bodies themselves were protected in the vehicle or whatever that was found on the impact site.
	We just don't have a good answer for that.
	Alright, good.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Good evening.
	Good evening, Art.
	Dennis calling from Portland.
	Hi, Dennis.
	Good evening, Kevin.
	Good evening.
	I'd like to use this opportunity.
	I know you always, you continually investigate this case.
	I was wondering if you could update us on any new information or findings Since your two books and your lecture here in Portland.
	Well, I think one of the things we need to point out is John Efter from UFO Magazine found another first-hand witness and that tends to corroborate a lot of the material in the book and that's a major find.
	I agree, but what have you found or done?
	I found another witness named Leo Spear, who was an M.T.
	at Roswell in July of 1947.
	He's in the yearbook.
	We can document him there.
	Wow.
	What he did was, he was not involved in guarding the site, but he remembered his friends who were, and they'd come back in the barracks talking about this flying saucer that they had guarded, and he thought it was just a bunch of B.S.
	until he read about it in the newspaper.
	What Leo Spear has done is show the military involvement prior to July 8th through his testimony.
	So that is a find that we find significant as well.
	How's that, caller?
	Very good.
	Keep up the great work, Kevin.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	And on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Kim from Olympia.
	Olympia, Washington.
	Yes.
	A piece of information for you and a question.
	Alright.
	The information is on Dateline NBC on Tuesday.
	The Clementine people were on?
	Yes.
	And they've seen us formation in a crater on the moon.
	They have seen what?
	What they're calling ice?
	Yes, sir.
	A crystalline substance?
	Yes, sir.
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah.
	That is remarkable.
	Yeah, it is.
	Yeah, I've been trying to... That is absolutely remarkable, and for all the people who hopped and popped about Richard Hoagland, you might want to note this report.
	That'll be coming on this Tuesday?
	It was on last Tuesday.
	Last Tuesday, they found us.
	Can I confirm that?
	That was on because I saw it as well.
	Yeah.
	It was fascinating.
	Well, well, well.
	Alright, and you had a question?
	Yes, how long did the alien live for, the one that lived?
	Alright, good question.
	Our information, and again, it's very speculative, Is that the one that survived lived for a number of years after the event.
	A number of years.
	A number of years after the event, the one that survived.
	So again, the motion picture may have... The demise of the alien may have been a little early.
	May have been a little bit early.
	But it did die within a couple of years of the event.
	But as I say, that's very speculative information at this point.
	We do not have good, solid basis for it.
	All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	This is Cal from Los Angeles.
	Los Angeles, all right.
	Kevin, I wanted to ask you about holes in space.
	Are these interdimensional, or do they just go to other parts of the universe?
	You're referring to black holes?
	Yes, I have a calendar with a couple of individuals that All right.
	Thank you.
	Well, there has been speculation that if you could get near the event horizon of a black hole, you'd pop out in another dimension or another part of the universe.
	I've heard that as well.
	I simply don't have any good answers for that.
	All right.
	First time caller, Lauren, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
	Hey, Kevin, how you doing?
	Just fine, thank you.
	I had a couple of questions.
	One, I find it quite astonishing.
	Well, most people aren't aware of what's really going on here, and Kevin has done a lot of marvelous work here, but this is, what he is talking about is something that has been documented in multiple cultures for over 3,000 years, and I got a question that he's heard with this particular device, but this has been, I could place it back to Hebrews or Greek or Chaldean, Many, many, many, many different things of exactly what he's talking about.
	Events just like this happening many thousands of years ago.
	I mean, even before Christ was born, these events took place.
	I wanted to ask him, has he heard anything on the time resonifier?
	It's a device, a resonifier, something that picks up and locks on after, like when you're tuning an instrument or something, you hit a certain note and it picks the key.
	uh... by breaking it we got a part of the certain frequency there's supposedly
	a device has been created uh... called the time result of fire
	that you know everybody who's skeptical about this is what you left him like you
	could you drive ten years to come over here to what birth is about
	according to this instead of you know having warped warped warped warped
	alright listen sir i'm sorry sir you're going to have to hold it sir well he's not going to hold it
	alright are you familiar with that device kevin no i'm not All right.
	Kevin, now give the phone number on how to get your book, because we're out of time.
	Well, the best way to get the book is, of course, the local bookstore, but if you can't, you can call 1-800.
	462-6420 and they'll be able to get a copy of the book for you.
	All right.
	There's only enough time to say thank you, my friend, and we will do it again.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate the time.
	Take care.
	Kevin Randall, author of The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.
	That's going to do it.
	But remember, if you want a copy of this program or any other Dreamland program or the entire series,
	call Area Code 503-664-7966.
	24 hours a day, 503-664-7966.
	hours a day, 503-664-7966. Good night everybody.
	This has been Dreamliner, a program dedicated to an examination of areas of the human experience
	not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not that.
	Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
	Please join us again next week at this time for Dreamland.

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