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Aug. 21, 1994 - Art Bell

02:00:15

Dreamland with Art Bell - Alien Abductions - Dr. Karla Turner

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	Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
	not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
	This is Dreamland.
	It certainly is.
	Good evening, everybody.
	Welcome to another Dreamland.
	Sunday evening?
	I'm Art Bell.
	My guest shortly is going to be Dr. Carla Turner, published with regard to the human abduction syndrome.
	A number of quotes, as a matter of fact, shall be coming to us from Arkansas.
	First, though, as always, we're going to turn to Linda Moulton Howe.
	All the way back in Philadelphia, Linda kind of keeps watch on the UFO community, crop circles, Animal mutilations, that sort of thing.
	The whole spectrum, the whole range.
	And she does so most times from Philadelphia, which is where I believe we're going to find her.
	Uh, this evening.
	Linda, welcome to the program once again.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Uh, so, you know, this summer, uh, one of the stories that I have, uh, touched on now two or three times has been, uh, the finding of mutilated animals in northern New Mexico.
	Uh, there were, in May, two steers on the Eli Hornage Ranch, uh, in Angel Fire, New Mexico, which is, uh, east of Taos.
	And two of those spears were examined by both a veterinarian and pathologist, Dr. John Outchuler in Denver, Colorado, who confirmed that all the excisions of tissue in both of those animals found the same day, on May 14th, had been cut with high heat.
	Since then, there have been other mutilated spears found July 24th and August 17th, and now by this weekend, the 13th animal has been found on the same ranch.
	Oh boy.
	And tonight, I talked with Albuquerque investigator Gail Stalin, who spent this weekend on the ranch, went out to help collect tissue samples for me and for Dr. Altshuler, And right now, I want to have our listeners hear her first-hand report, and then I'll give an update on another pathology exam after that.
	So, here we go.
	Alright, very good.
	And once again, this is our new sound system.
	north of the water towers I'd say maybe a mile. So we walked to the site it was by a little pond and it was
	laying on its left side. The rectum looked like it had been poured out. The edges was...well it was kind of...it looked
	like it had been sanched in a way. Was it darkened and smooth? Yes, it was
	darkened. So we went ahead and took samples of that area.
	We opened up the mouth and noticed that half of the tongue was missing.
	So we took samples of that and how was that cut?
	Just in a straight cut.
	Vertical?
	Yeah, straight across.
	And was it very smooth?
	It was pretty smooth.
	It didn't look like the buzzards had been on it or anything because the mouth was closed.
	But the tongue was definitely removed part of it.
	I would say this This bull was maybe 850 pounds.
	The penis was gone.
	And how was that removed?
	It looked like it had been poured out also.
	Meaning, was it high deep or deeper?
	Oh, it was deeper.
	It was deeper than just high deep.
	Was it deeper?
	Describe the kind of hole.
	Um, I would say it was maybe eight inches round.
	Um, and it was just a hole.
	Just a hole where it had been removed.
	And what could you see in the hole, in the cavity of the body?
	Well, nothing, really.
	I mean, you could tell that it was gone.
	You could see, um, part, part of, um, the ribcage, I guess, was there.
	Some type of a bone.
	I know the hip bone was exposed.
	The buzzards seem to have been picking at that because it was torn tissue.
	You know, the hide was torn around the hip.
	That's what it said.
	Appears to be after these other excisions.
	After the fact.
	Oh yeah.
	And was the, were all the excisions in the rectal area and the penile area, were they dry?
	Was there fluid?
	They were dry.
	They were pretty well dry.
	It wasn't real moist until we cut into it.
	And the blood inside was a real watery, it looked like real watery down blood.
	It wasn't real thick.
	Okay, and so you were trying to get some lung tissue and some internal tissue?
	Right, we were trying to get lung samples.
	The heart was real mushy.
	Was only the heart mushy?
	No, the liver was kind of mushy.
	that the heart was just, oh it looked bad.
	The lungs were pretty clear, I didn't see any marbling in the lungs.
	Which may have been, if there had been marbling it could have suggested pneumonia.
	Right, we didn't see that but we went ahead and took samples of it anyway.
	And what about the ear and the eye?
	Okay, the ears were intact, the eye was gone but it looked like buzzards had been picking at it, you know.
	So I couldn't really tell if the eye was missing due to anything other than the buzzards.
	Now, was this, uh, the animal where there was a report from a neighbor of a large black helicopter over the animal?
	Uh, not that I know of.
	I, I didn't talk to any of the neighbors.
	Okay.
	Uh, that must have been true that, you know, this week.
	So I really don't know which one this is because I didn't see the one earlier in the week.
	Then it was the one on Wednesday because I talked with Eli about it.
	Okay, this was the Wednesday bull.
	Okay, and this was a, there was a large black helicopter that was seen right over the area.
	Right, right.
	And a lot of the townspeople have seen it, they've seen this helicopter.
	They're quite aware of the helicopter activity going on.
	And they also say, Gee, you know, anytime we see the helicopters, we know Eli's gonna have another one.
	Anything special about this particular helicopter?
	I have been told that it's a bell-shaped helicopter.
	The front end of it is glass.
	So it's probably an older one.
	A bell-shaped helicopter?
	How would you explain a bell-shaped helicopter?
	Well, that's what the people up there say it is.
	Two people told me that, that it was a bell-shaped.
	Do they actually hear the sound of the helicopter associated with it?
	I asked them and they said yes, that they did hear it.
	And then we get back to the question of whether this is something that is government monitoring frequencies that might be associated with whatever the phenomena is involved with mutilations, or is it something else altogether?
	Right.
	You know, I have no idea.
	The people are very concerned.
	Very, very concerned.
	There's been a lot of media coverage up there.
	I think they're getting tired of it.
	They're glad that we're there to help.
	They really appreciate it.
	Has anybody in the area ever, in the last month or two or three, reported any unusual, strange moving lights or beams of light in that area?
	Eli's ranch hand.
	He said that he saw something on the other side of the mountains on the Cimarron side that looked like an orange basketball in the sky.
	When was this?
	This was back in May, when we went out in May.
	So that gives you a kind of overview of some of the activity that has been happening as recently as this weekend in northern New Mexico.
	That orange basketball description was probably one of the most common reports in the 70s when there were so many mutilations throughout the United States and Canada and other parts of the world.
	especially interesting that now we've had two this week, one right after the other,
	both males and the July 24th mutilation I talked with Dr. Atschler about,
	that was about three weeks ago, and he said that he has been able to examine the tissue from that one,
	and again he is finding what appears to be the suggestion of high heat.
	So we are going to try to keep at least building up the case files from a pathology
	and a veterinarian point of view on these animals that is at least separating them from normal disease and predators.
	Sure. Wow. What a story.
	All right, Linda, as usual, I want to be sure to get your address out to everybody because I know a lot of people in the audience try to and want to communicate with you.
	Right, and I really do enjoy seeing these letters because they are Giving me a kind of cross-section of what people who are listening to Dreamland around the United States are experiencing in their own lives, not only now, but some of the more interesting letters have been experiences by people going back to the 40s and 50s in which they have never ever told anyone before.
	And in some cases, those stories are totally, they appear to be uncontaminated by current literature.
	So, my address, it's Linda Howe, and it's post office box 538, in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, spelled H-U-N-T-I-N-G, D as in dog, O-N, Valley, Pennsylvania, and the zip code is 19006.
	1-9-0-0-6 Alright, alright.
	All right.
	Well, I hope that if anybody has anything, they'll whip it right off to you.
	And I've got a couple of things headed your way as well, Linda.
	All right.
	And I am trying to make sure that we're covering a lot of waterfronts.
	I had mentioned last week about Jupiter, and I do intend to do an update.
	In fact, there was a meeting in Europe this week with one of the scientists from MIT that I'll be interviewing.
	I wanted to keep up with the current headlines now, and since they haven't finished this meeting, I think that by next Sunday, we should have an even better overview, and I'll still keep trying to update on what happens in northern New Mexico, crop circles, and all these other subjects.
	Wonderful.
	Alright, Linda Howe, thank you.
	Thank you.
	And talk to you next week.
	That's Linda Howe.
	I want you to know, she received an MA from the University of Nottingham, England, and a PhD in English from the University of North Texas.
	For over a decade, she taught college English and other professional work, including writing and editing.
	In 1988, she and her family were forcibly made aware, forcibly, of alien involvement in their lives.
	That came after a daytime sighting of a UFO by her husband, Casey, a computer specialist.
	With the help of Barbara Bartholick, I believe it is, an abduction researcher in Oklahoma, Dr. Turner, explored the past and current alien encounters that came to her, including her husband, son, future daughter-in-law, and several close friends.
	The story of the first year of this investigation is presented in her first book, Into the Fringe, published in 1992 by the Berkeley Publishing Group.
	Working first with Mrs. Bartholick, And then later, independently, Dr. Turner began to research other abduction cases in her local area of North Central Texas.
	Since then, the cases have come from many other areas around the country.
	Her latest research findings are presented in Taken, inside the Alien Human Abduction Agenda, published in April of 1994 by Celt Works, and available exclusively from them by writing to Post Office Box 32, Rowland, Arkansas, 72135.
	In Taken, Dr. Turner presents eight detailed abduction accounts from women in Texas, Alabama, Tennessee, Florida, New York, and Puerto Rico, as well as an update on the events she and her husband have both experienced.
	Some of the little-known events discussed include medical, Sexual, psychological, and metaphysical procedures.
	In addition to these alien contacts, several of the women also tell of surveillance, intrusion, even abductions by U.S.
	military personnel.
	The correlations of these accounts and the insights gleaned from their experiences make a powerful case for UFO and abduction researchers to expand the recognized parameters of the abduction phenomenon.
	They further call into serious question most of the theories that have been offered in explanation of this activity.
	And so now, to all the way to Arkansas, and to Dr. Carla Turner.
	Dr. Turner, welcome to the program.
	Well, thank you, Art.
	Nice to be with you.
	Good to have you.
	Hold on just one second.
	I'm going to put you over here instead.
	Okay, we've got you over in another place.
	Dr. Turner, apparently all this began then with an experience you had.
	Well, actually it began with an experience my husband had.
	Um, as far as our coming to having to deal with this, being aware of ongoing activities that once we began to investigate, of course, like most people who've had these experiences, we learned that they went back to childhood.
	But being aware of what they were, that did begin really with a sighting in December of 1987 of a spherical metallic object over the courthouse in the town that I lived at, my husband had.
	And there was missing time when I went up on the hill to watch.
	How much of a description did he have of the object beyond spherical?
	This week's topic...
	...really wasn't part of the...
	...about or studied in any way.
	How much of a description did he have of the object beyond spherical?
	In other words, how close was it?
	He was...
	He saw it while he was driving home from the grocery store and he drove to our house and walked about half a block up
	a hill.
	From there, he had a vantage view of downtown, where the courthouse was, where this object was, and it was less than two miles away.
	Much less, probably.
	The object was hanging above the courthouse, stationary.
	There was no movement, no sound.
	It was glowing with lights, but it was a burnished metallic color, coppery colored.
	It seemed to be a total sphere, a complete sphere.
	And it was fairly large, given that it was that close, if it was as close as it appeared to be, which was right over the center of town.
	And he watched her trying to figure out what the object might be.
	It was a balloon or even a movie prop, as I mentioned in the book.
	We lived in an area near Dallas where movies were often made on location.
	And it really, that was all he thought he was seeing, but he watched it for what he consciously perceived to be less than 10 minutes, and when he turned around to walk back down the hill, because he'd given up on figuring it out, a significant amount of time had apparently passed he hadn't been aware of, and it was almost dark.
	Whereas it had been quite daylight when he'd gone up the hill.
	Wow.
	So then, how much time are we talking about?
	Um, probably 45 minutes or so.
	45 minutes?
	Yeah, probably.
	Somewhere around there.
	Depends on what time, um, we'd have to go back and look at, you know, measuring the times.
	We're just guessing because it was daylight when he went up there.
	It was almost dark when he turned around.
	So then how did he digest all this?
	He didn't.
	He told me about it.
	I wasn't with him.
	He told me about it.
	He wasn't overly excited.
	He was curious because he'd never seen anything like it.
	And he had no explanation.
	As I said, he didn't even think the word UFO.
	When he talked about it with me, that never was even mentioned.
	We assumed it was a movie prop and looked in the newspapers, treated it very ordinarily.
	But a couple of days later, he did have an unusual event.
	He found a scabbed over deep incision on the back of his leg and he got extremely angry about it for no apparent reason.
	He didn't know how he got it.
	It had not been there that he'd been aware of.
	at least very long because he just found it when it was scabbing and beginning to itch.
	It's a scab sometimes. No injury had been inflicted on him that he was aware of but
	he did get angry about the cut and we did not connect the two events. So just looking back
	you begin to see connections. Really we forgot about it at that point. Well did he have any
	desire to when he began to figure this out or connect the two and connect the whole experience
	did he then want to follow up maybe get hypnosis or try and dig into it and figure out what happened?
	Yes, but that was several months later.
	This was in December, right before Christmas of 1987.
	And as I said, when we didn't see anything in the paper about it, we forgot about it.
	A day or so later, he found a scar.
	He did not connect it with the event.
	And then we forgot all about it, totally.
	What happened was that we both began to develop intense stress symptoms, physical stress symptoms.
	And these led us, after they persisted and we couldn't understand why we were both having
	such physical symptoms, it led us to go into counseling to try to figure out what was wrong.
	Sure.
	And we each went to separate counselors because we worked in different cities.
	And my counselor taught me to do self-hypnosis to relax the physical symptoms I was having.
	His counselor didn't.
	They simply talked about Whatever they could come up with and after about three or four sessions the counselor told him that frankly he couldn't find a specific problem for them to work on.
	He couldn't tell him what the cause of his stress was.
	And it was at that point that I offered to show him how to do hypnosis so he could relax the symptoms.
	He was having a number of physical symptoms including numbness in the leg where he had had the cut on the back of his leg all the way down that entire leg to the foot would have pain and numbness and tingling.
	He had vision problems, headaches, stomach aches, back problems, just an extraordinary number of stress symptoms.
	So you decided then you were going to sort of teach him some process of self-hypnosis to try and relieve some of this.
	Strictly just what my therapist had taught me, and I had only been to him twice.
	So this wasn't like I was any adept at it, nor did I explore anything further than just wanting to relax the symptoms I was having.
	All right, Dr. Turner, hold on just a moment.
	We'll come right back to you.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	This is Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And it sounds like there's a lot more of this story and her follow-up research to here.
	Stay right there.
	Call Art Now toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	Call 1-800-618-TALK.
	727-1295.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	727-1295.
	The area code is 702.
	Now again, here's Art Bell.
	Now again, here I am.
	My guest is Dr. Carla Turner, here from rural Arkansas.
	She's published, is the author of Into the Fringe, and Taken, Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda.
	And we're talking to her about how all this began, which was an experience by her husband.
	Dr. Turner, you still there?
	Good.
	So there was your husband trying to relax himself in the techniques you taught him that have been taught to you.
	Where do we go from there?
	Very simple.
	He went into a fairly light trance quickly.
	He was testing himself for the state of the trance.
	The only question that he really needed to ask himself when he got there, after he was relaxed, I thought it might be a good idea to do what the therapist had done with me and that was to ask your subconscious to show you the cause of the stress.
	Sure.
	And he had mentally asked that question of himself and immediately had a strong, startled physical reaction and had apparently opened up a memory that he had never had any conscious thinking about at all.
	And he told me, in exclamatory tones, he saw a face.
	He described this very unusual face.
	And then, in amazement, he told me he saw this gigantic ship.
	And I didn't, you know, in the sky, a spacecraft.
	And he said it was huge.
	He said the size of a small town.
	It was this enormous craft.
	And there were a series of very strange things, including some non-human phone call that we received right when he said that.
	The phone rang, and I got this extraordinarily Uh, almost metallic or insectoid sounding chattering on the other end of the line at me and then it just went dead.
	And I brought him out of the trance.
	I didn't know what had happened.
	Yeah, I'm sure it was.
	That's really odd.
	And I contacted my therapist the next morning and said, you know, my husband remembered something very strange when he put himself in a trance last night.
	Would you talk to him?
	And I told him what he had remembered, and he just sort of scoffed at it and said, I don't know what it was, but I'm sure it wasn't Flying Sausage and Little Green Man.
	There aren't any such things.
	And it was a while.
	We couldn't find anybody.
	Actually, I contacted several people in the area for help.
	When nobody would respond, he went back deliberately into another trance state to see what that was about.
	He was extremely curious to know what the context was for these memories that he had suddenly had burst through a few nights before.
	And that's really how it all began.
	When he went back and looked, he recalled bits and pieces of what seemed to have been an abduction by non-human little creatures when he was only 11 months old on a trip in a car with his father.
	And he had never remembered this at all, anything about this ever.
	And his parents came from several states away to visit the next month, and we did have a chance to ask them about the situation, if he remembered it, without telling them, you know, what he had remembered.
	And it was confirmed in a number of ways that yes, the trip had been made under exactly those circumstances, in that area, at precisely that time.
	We pinpointed the day it happened, because it was a memorable event, because his father We're almost two hours later returning from a very short errand that they were supposed to run for business than they should have been and had no explanation.
	All right.
	This was in 1987 and this kind of launched you into an investigation of the entire phenomenon.
	Exactly.
	It launched us into looking into what had gone on in his past.
	In the process of the investigation with Barbara Barclay, I was also questioned about anomalous past events myself and turned up things I had consciously always remembered but never accounted for in any particular way.
	and we began looking into things in my past and then we began having a series of current
	encounters, intruders, whatever you would like to call it.
	People vary on how they feel about it, but we certainly felt intruded upon.
	And this involved my husband and myself and my son who lived in a different place.
	He was a graduate student in college, his fiancé and his roommate.
	And this was an ongoing series of intense events for well over a year before things finally calmed down.
	So this was affecting your entire family?
	Yes.
	In other words, they were having, and you, had had experiences?
	Yes, I had things that I had always remembered consciously, but I didn't know what they meant.
	And I think you'll find this story from any number of people who, once they wake up to
	a particular experience that seems to be a trigger.
	For instance, my husband did recall later under hypnosis what had happened in December
	of 1987 in the missing time period as he was watching this craft over the center of town.
	He remembered an abduction occurring.
	He remembered a series of physical events taking place in a very rushed and hurried
	atmosphere and he remembered at one point when this incision was made deep into his
	leg being told, now you will remember, it is time to remember.
	Dr. Turner, if this craft appeared over the center of town, that was the phrase you just
	used.
	That's exactly right, in the daytime.
	Then lots and lots of people should have seen it.
	Well, one of the things I know now that I certainly didn't know then after devoting
	several years of full-time effort to researching the entire subject.
	One of the things we know is that there are at least two kinds of sightings of craft.
	And there is one which seems more or less random and open where many people in an area will spot the craft from different vantage points wherever they are in the area.
	People along the freeway pulling over and watching crafts.
	There were flat sightings like that reported intermittently throughout this history.
	But there are also targeted sightings that target the perceptive ability of only one person or a small group of people in a large area.
	And this is very common, that even in some case reports we've looked into, there might be a group of people, say five or six, within a 20-foot radius of each other, and a craft appears that only three of those people are able to see.
	Oh boy.
	So then Kraft are able to do that, you believe.
	They're able to be seen by those they want to be seen by and nobody else.
	I have no doubt about it.
	It's not a matter of belief.
	I think it's proven.
	Yes.
	So you have proven by what means, Doctor?
	By report, as much as anything in this field is going to be proven.
	So maybe I should modify the term or at least define how I'm using it.
	To my satisfaction, I have a very short list of things I consider facts in this phenomenon because they are extremely hard to pin down.
	things change, perceptions are distorted and there's so much deception at the heart of
	the entire phenomenon and illusion there that pinning down any kind of fact is just almost
	impossible.
	But I think it's been confirmed to me at least by a number of investigated events that there
	are targeted sightings in which people are targeted for the sighting and the people with
	In fact, I had witnessed a version of this last December.
	My mother-in-law, my husband, and I were called by some other people in the county where we live now that they had had a sighting of a craft and when it moved away from their area, it moved in our general direction.
	And we went out onto the road to an open spot on the top of the mountain ridge where we live so we could see a great distance.
	And we watched the craft come in and traverse the horizon less than a mile from us.
	and we watched it all together talking about it as we watched it and when it was gone and we
	were recapping what we had seen we each had seen it with different colors doing different types of
	of expressions of color and light oh boy well that makes collection of data a little more
	difficult doesn't it Well, that's one of the points I was trying to make and take in that just about everything we took for granted has to be questioned in this field.
	We can't really accept at face value what objective perceptions honestly report, because they are manipulated to such a great degree.
	How much of a mix of the UFO phenomenon do you think there is beginning to be with the metaphysical, Doctor?
	Well, I think there's always been a great mix of it.
	Don't you?
	If you look back even to the contactee cases?
	Well, I do interview after interview with people like yourself week in and week out, and I have noticed, Doctor, much more of a movement toward the metaphysical in an attempt to explain all of this.
	Yes, I think there's a great deal of motivation toward that point of view both in the UFO community, factions of the research community promote this view very heavily.
	It's very difficult, though, for a hard scientist to swallow it.
	Nevertheless, people like Dr. Mack, who was with us last week, are beginning to move in this direction.
	I wonder if, in other words, as we continue to investigate this entire phenomenon and we want to approach it through the metaphysical, how do we do that?
	Well, in just a moment when we have a break, I'll pull out a little statement that I had put together trying to deal with how do we approach this phenomenon?
	What are our options?
	And I'll share that with you after our next break.
	But one thing, we have, whatever one's approach may have been to this phenomenon in the past, there seems to have been such an acceleration of activity in all phases of it since the, I would say 1986 is just a starting point, although, you know, that's very vague.
	There's been such an intense increase in activity, I think it has chipped and hammered away at everyone's preconception about this phenomenon.
	How long do you think we have been visited on this Earth?
	Well, I can give you a personal opinion.
	I can't give you a statement based on data.
	Personally, I think it may well have been for centuries, if not more than that.
	In fact, jokingly or half-jokingly, talking with another person who's involved in this field a couple of days ago, I said, you know, maybe abductees isn't the correct term really for what we're going through.
	I said, sometimes it does seem like perhaps everyone has had these experiences and always have.
	Maybe it's just that something is triggering the species to begin waking up to how to perceive that this
	is going on and the waking up process hits individually one at a time and maybe we are seeing a
	massive movement toward that.
	Alright, how are you to know or how can you be sure or assure us that the experiences that
	you became aware of your own and of your husbands were not part of this great false memory syndrome
	that everybody is talking about? Well it's limited to what one recalls
	under hypnosis to begin with and then elaborates thereof as I understand it. Would you agree with that?
	Well, you...
	False memory?
	Uh-huh.
	The basis of false memory syndrome, as far as I have seen it presented, is that in hypnotic regressions, ideas are implanted and elaborated, and thereafter are counted as real.
	Yes, that's correct.
	Well, the things in my life that we began looking into, I had always remembered since the time they happened, very consciously.
	There was no hypnosis when I was, for instance, I remembered the first event before I was six years old.
	I remembered it when it happened.
	I remembered it the next morning.
	I remembered it thereafter.
	What event was that?
	Waking up in the middle of the night, or coming to consciousness, I won't say waking up, but coming to awareness, conscious awareness, in the middle of the backyard, in the middle of the night, by myself, as far as my family was not there, and this creature that was very tall, and very thin, and in my child's way of thinking, I called it a giant grasshopper, because it was very insectoid looking, had the hold of my arm, and was telling me it was my mother, and I was screaming back at it, no you're not.
	I had remembered that since it happened.
	That was not something that came up out of a hypnosis session.
	I had never even delved into it with hypnosis.
	Did you tell your real mother about that?
	Of course.
	Of course.
	And they dismissed it as I guess any parent would.
	Bad dream.
	As a bad dream.
	But I was very much aware of being awake and being in the backyard and this creature being beside me.
	That, for instance, had always been in my consciousness.
	Another incident that had happened in the 1970s, driving on a daytime trip.
	On the interstate, a strange, almost solid-looking black cloud-like object had swept horizontally from beside the interstate onto the road in front of me, stopped right over covering both lanes and hovered there, and I thought, you know, trying to make sense of it at 70 miles an hour, what an enormously dense black cloud of smoke, wonder where it came from, hope I don't hit anything when I drive through it.
	Sure.
	And remember bracing to go through this, and then the next thing I was aware of was seeing it in the rear-view mirror behind me, still on the road, I never had any memory of going through it.
	That I've always remembered.
	These were not things that came up out of hypnosis.
	So then your thinking is that everybody or almost everybody may have had these experiences?
	I would not rule it out, honestly.
	And although six years ago I would have absolutely denied that was a possibility, I can't deny it's a possibility now.
	I don't have any way of knowing.
	It may simply be that we are waking up to something that's been a condition of ours for eons.
	Something that's been going on for a long, long time.
	Right.
	We may be coming to new perceptive, in just, for metaphorical terms, a trichameralism of the psyche.
	We are a bicameral psyche right now in a number of ways.
	We may be developing a new set of perceptive abilities.
	that will take us to another stage of...
	Is that some sort of process of evolution, do you think?
	Certainly. It's a leap, a mutation, a natural process.
	You know, when it happens through generations, there's always one generation at least that's transitional.
	Mm-hmm.
	If not, you know, more.
	If not more.
	Right.
	Many believe that the process of evolution is so slow that no single generation could notice a change.
	But you're suggesting we may be one of those...
	What's the right word?
	I'm becoming lost here, but we're a transitional, that's the best way to put it.
	Right, that may be.
	There's other people who, there are other people whose ideas about evolution are that as long as, it may well go along slowly for the most part, and then there are unexplained quirky little leaps.
	Where it is fairly fast.
	For instance, the evolution of the Homo sapiens has some quirky little leaps in it that are not explained.
	Alright, well you're on a fascinating tangent.
	Hold on just a moment and we'll come back to you.
	Dr. Carla Turner is my guest.
	Do you think we're in some sort of transitional... What a fascinating concept.
	It's a new one.
	Some sort of transitional change.
	Fascinating.
	Never thought about it that way.
	We'll be right back.
	Are you there?
	Yes, I sure am.
	Good.
	Alright, so perhaps we are some sort of transitional generation and we're all slowly becoming aware of this.
	That would also, by the way, be validated by the interest in programs like this one.
	And it is amazing how much interest there is.
	Yes, there is.
	I studied this in the last few years.
	You know, I think I had a real advantage not knowing anything about the entire field or history of ufology when we were thrust right into the middle of it.
	and being able, having been trained through my academic work
	to assess and gather data, to analyze trends and historical perspective and context
	in different areas of activity, I was able to take in rather quickly
	through a great deal of work, the history, at least that was in print, of all the different studies
	and approaches to this field in a fairly short amount of time
	so I was able to get an overview.
	One of the things that stood out was this acceleration of change after a certain point
	in the modern time.
	There seemed to have been sort of a status quo for centuries.
	If you look at the work of Jacques Vallée and others who've delved into the legends, the myths,
	the religious lore, the historical records, in fact, from ages before ours and see that there were
	these intermittent accounts that fall within the realm of UFO phenomena,
	it was fairly static as far as the acceleration of activity until the modern age.
	And then we see certain kinds of activity beginning and then beginning massively
	and then those becoming more and more complex leading up to the massive numbers of people
	who I believe are telling the honest truth about what they think has happened to them,
	reporting honestly on events as they've perceived them, and the numbers are staggering.
	What do you think all this is headed toward, this increased awareness, even this evolutionary change?
	What is it headed toward?
	Well, again, I'm having to speak from a fairly educated opinion, but certainly no one in this field can claim to have any hard and fast answers from which to work, so we're all making guesses.
	But I think that if you look at studies that show species societies or groups in intense
	stress situations go through a metamorphosis.
	Often physically they will sicken and die.
	If they don't they have physical, I mean mental adaptation processes.
	They get pushed to react and respond in ways they haven't been forced to before simply
	because there was no need for it.
	And we may well be going through what is normal as far as evolutionary processes are occurred
	and just gaining these perceptive abilities that are now allowing us to see interactions
	and activity of a certain dimensional nature we weren't able to perceive.
	I guess what I was asking is at some point do you perceive that there may be a kind of a critical mass of awareness?
	I think that's theoretically possible, sure.
	I think it may be necessary if we're going to really encounter and confront and deal with this situation as we have it right now.
	Yes, I think most people, you get the feeling most people are asleep to the subject.
	But if there were, as I see growing in the past several years, numbers of people waking up in different ways.
	Then you begin to think, yes, this could have a critical mass effect.
	What would that, do you think, result in socially?
	If somehow we all began to become aware that, oh yes, not only have we been visited for hundreds of years, we're being visited now.
	It's occurring to many, if not most people.
	And it's not a visit.
	It's something quite different.
	Well, okay, let me take off down that road.
	What is it?
	My best opinion is that it is some form, metaphorically speaking, of farming.
	That we have a, some source, we are a source for certain somethings, qualities, or physical materials, or energetic energy patterns, I have no idea.
	Although all of those are possible given the data of the abduction report.
	Hopefully, um, we, we are not, uh, we are not as cows are to human, uh, beings.
	Well, hopefully, but realistically speaking, that's not out of the realm of the data possibility.
	Hmm.
	That if our cows begin to develop, say, self-consciousness, and they begin to perceive their situation more accurately, we would have a big problem on our hands.
	We would certainly have to change our methods of interacting with the cows.
	And when we see the changes that have accelerated in the past few years, ten years, in this phenomenon, you begin to wonder what's made them change from hundreds of years of fairly static procedures.
	Would you think that if that was the scenario that, if you'll excuse the expression, our creators intended for us to be self-aware or not?
	I think it may be one of those ironic accidents.
	And again, I'm theorizing.
	You're talking theory.
	I'm going to talk theory back.
	But I'm not going to talk any theory that goes greatly against the data as I know it.
	All right?
	Well, that's fair enough.
	All right.
	But we are at the top of the hour, so hold your response, if you would, please.
	We'll be back to Dr. Carla Turner, who's coming to us from rural Arkansas.
	And we'll talk more about abductions next.
	This is Dreamland.
	It's just not fitting.
	The boxes are very limited.
	One thing we have to be committed to is, I think, researching the widest possible body of data, instead of being very selective because of personal biases or personal preconceptions about what we're going to consider.
	But the problem is, when you put it in the box, you don't have a good fit.
	If what's going on here were known to someone, it would be worth the rest of the world's attention, certainly, to know what the answers might be.
	I don't have any.
	We were talking about theories a while ago.
	Certainly everybody's got a theory.
	I would like to comment on something you did say earlier, though, about perhaps these creatures might have been our creators.
	Yes.
	I think probably if we wanted to examine a variety of evidence types, including some of the more ancient records, we might find that they could be considered more correctly perhaps interloping farmers.
	Interloping farmers.
	Well, the way that we as a species, the human species, has taken over wild animals time and again, and domesticated them, and genetically altered them for our benefit.
	Well, that's true.
	While we certainly did not create cows, we could be considered their farmers, couldn't we?
	Exactly, and we've genetically manipulated them through the centuries, through selective breeding programs in the beginning, and then through more laboratory-type methods in the recent years.
	Alright, we use cows for food.
	While you don't rule that out with regard to how the aliens may be using us, what is your best guess, based on your research, as to what they're doing with us?
	Well, they're doing a variety of things with us, and this is what makes it hard, Art.
	We know they're taking certain kinds of substances from us.
	They take sperm.
	They take ova.
	They may well be taking fetuses, if we can trust the perceptions of the people who've reported this.
	They take body fluids.
	They add body fluids, add fluids to our system.
	They take flesh samples, hair samples.
	They take energy.
	In fact, one of the more common things that I began to run into when I was making connections with many other cases of abduction reports It was a phenomenon that some people call being vacuumed where you are in a totally normal physical energy state and then as if a switch were thrown and a vacuum sucks all your energy out you totally are without any energy.
	It's more than exhaustion.
	When it happened to me I couldn't even move my lips to talk and it took 15-20 minutes of recovery time to regain energy.
	So they certainly are taking energy in some way.
	Alright, I've talked to a lot of people who call up who think they have been abducted or tampered with in some way and they have awakened in the middle of the night to a paralyzed state.
	Is that a common report?
	Sure, it's a common report.
	They either wake up paralyzed or become that way soon after perceiving entities are alive in the room.
	Yes.
	But if it were all just happening in the bedroom, I think we'd have a very different phenomenon.
	You know, of course, from the other calls you've gotten, that it happens to groups of people at the same time.
	It happens in the middle of the day, on the highway, in town, at parties.
	So we're not dealing with something that's easily explainable as a night phenomenon, but that does seem to be a very, very common occurrence.
	Um, and again, your view is, what, that there's a genetic reason perhaps for all of this experimentation?
	I think part of it may be given the kinds of reports we have that they are certainly
	doing something that is quite physical in both its aim and its procedures, that this
	is not a spiritual phenomenon primarily as some people would very much like it to be.
	The purpose of a spiritual phenomenon is not being served by a number of procedures that
	are reported over and over again in the abduction scenario.
	These are very physical concerns, brain operations, blood alterations, implants for instance,
	which would really have nothing to do with a spiritual phenomenon.
	That's true.
	What is the state of the research into these implants?
	I know that we have actually some physical samples of implants.
	What is the best available evidence, do you know?
	Oh, very little to tell you the truth.
	The best available evidence I've heard recently has concerned reports of analysis into a number of potential or alleged implant objects, but so far nothing has turned up that is easily explained.
	Some are completely terrestrial materials, but that still doesn't explain who made them or for what purpose.
	Others appear to be just anomalous in the sense that they can say what it isn't, but they can't really say what it is, nor, in fact, that it's extraterrestrial in origin.
	All right.
	Is it necessarily extraterrestrial in origin?
	And I go back to my visit last week with Dr. Mack from Harvard.
	He said that, look, a lot of these implants that have been analyzed have turned out to be very terrestrial in terms of the materials in them.
	Exactly.
	Dr. Mack is not A blind to the possibility that these creatures, whatever they are, may come from either another time or another dimension, but in fact, from this Earth.
	On some plane, from this very Earth.
	And if that would be true, it would explain the materials being common to this Earth.
	Certainly, if they had been interacting with our species for a long, long time, they would know very well the materials on this plane.
	Wherever they come from, if they came from another planet, if they came from another dimension, if they came from a dimension parallel to ours on this planet, those are all possibilities because we don't have any answers.
	certainly behave as if they dimensional hop in a sense and manipulate dimension
	they manipulate time there's no doubt about that and their physical
	activities as we've observed them show they manipulate spatially.
	All right in your book Taken you go into eight separate cases apparently
	all women. Yeah this time around I focused on eight different women's cases
	I thought it gave one of the points of doing this project was to give an adequate sampling of in-depth reports so that correlations and comparisons could be made.
	And I thought it was one more factor that was part of the correlation process that these cases all happened to be women.
	The book I'm working on now that should be available by December concerns one man's case.
	So I don't just work with women.
	I'm not going to leave that impression.
	All right.
	By the way, there are very few, by number, women who are UFO investigators or investigators in your field.
	Most of the people investigating in this field seem to be men.
	Have you noticed that?
	Of course.
	Yes.
	And it's not been easy to be one of the few women in this field, I'll have to say that, although some people have made very good efforts toward me, but still I think not only do I have that strike perhaps against me considering the numbers of women who aren't in this field, but also I have a strike in some people's eyes against me because I have had personal experiences that in some people's thinking is a contamination that means I shouldn't research.
	And I guess I could see the point of view, but I think, on the other hand, it gives me additional advantage in research.
	Well, if you really had the experience, and I went 48 years of my life, Dr. Turner, without seeing a UFO, and then finally saw one almost a year ago, it compels you, and so I can easily understand why you would dive into this research.
	It's not easy.
	What have your colleagues said?
	Academic colleagues?
	Yes, that's right.
	Very little.
	In confidence, several have talked about personal sighting experiences but never publicly.
	I left the area where I was teaching in 1991, which was the last semester I taught in the spring, and I moved to another state so I really haven't been in contact with them since then.
	What they may think about it now, I can't tell you.
	However, they are among the rest of the population in this abduction statistic field that there are people at the university level who have experiences just like there are in one case, probably the most extreme as far as deprivation I know, a case in the Ozark Mountains of a family so remote and so without access to what we would think of as contaminating material.
	They had no electricity, no television, no and no one really contact very menial labor and the woman
	was totally illiterate and couldn't read and yet her experiences parallel those of the college
	professors and the doctors and the artists and the housewives who also have this. You said
	there were a number of things or at least a few things that you could nail down as certain about this
	entire phenomenon.
	Well there are certain things that I have, to my satisfaction, I accept as fact rather than as theory.
	What are those?
	Well, some of them include, for instance, the fact that we don't know, there is no evidence,
	it is a fact we do not know where these creatures come from or what in fact their true nature is.
	In other words, I have not found any of the theories to explain
	their origin or their nature to be overwhelmingly proven by the data.
	Let me try approaching it, though, from the other angle.
	Are you convinced, convinced, doctor, through your research, that this is a hidden hand, that there are aliens, no matter where they may come from, who are here?
	Yes, I have personally experienced it.
	It's a matter of knowledge and experience with me, not even a conjecture.
	Not even a question?
	No, no question.
	What they are, I cannot tell you and I don't think anyone else can either, but they're not us.
	And as to their purpose, all you're sure of is you don't know.
	Well, on my list of facts, number two on the list is that at least some of these creatures are consummate liars and
	deceivers.
	This is a fact, there is no doubt, and the evidence goes back to the beginning of the Contactee scenario,
	all the way through reports I've gotten in the last week from cases that are ongoing now.
	Alright, give me a good example.
	What makes you believe they are consummate liars?
	Well, they have made, over the years, to particular individuals, a number of very specific predictions or warnings or scenarios that have never come to pass.
	Sometimes small events that they predict in the beginning of a list of warnings or predictions will occur, which makes the person who's received this list of predictions take the list at a very credible level and prepare for these other things to happen and then they do not happen.
	Now this goes back to the early 50s as far as reports of interactions and communications from these creatures.
	They also have given a number of contradictory explanations to various abductees as far as the same procedures are the same part of the agenda.
	For instance, and as I talk about this in Taken, one woman was shown at one point during some of her encounters a cloned copy of her body.
	It was inert.
	Now this happens in a number of cases.
	Many people have reported seeing inert human bodies.
	Sometimes copies of themselves, sometimes not.
	Just other bodies.
	And one case, Pat was told that these bodies were for the resurrection.
	Now throughout Pat's experiences, a religious symbology was employed with her.
	Because it was, she had a very strong basic faith.
	By the way, is it your view that those who start out with a very strong religious faith attribute their experience to some sort of religious occurrence?
	I think they may tend to, and I think that tendency is greatly amplified by the programming of the aliens themselves.
	They'll take on whatever guide works, follow whatever procedure really accomplishes their program.
	Let me take it from their point of view for a second.
	Why do you think That these beings are not connected to what we think of as traditional religion in some way.
	A lot of religious people will say, well, these are devils, or they're angels, or they're spirits.
	And this is not an area we should be even looking into.
	Well, my personal answer would be that they do not behave in the reports we have from abduction accounts anything like, or very seldom anything like, any of the reports of spirits and angels in religious literature that these people use as the basis of their beliefs, for one thing.
	As I've said before, I have never yet found anywhere in the Bible where one of the angels' duties was a rectal probe on a six-year-old child.
	Yeah, good point.
	That's a good point.
	That's a starting place for questioning that.
	Secondly, the entire range of their procedures would make that very suspect.
	The physical activities are numerous and nothing like this seems related to a spiritual agenda if that's what they were pursuing.
	I will agree that they indoctrinate and program us throughout these encounters if that is
	going to be effective with us to take it on a spiritual level.
	For instance with Pat when they first abducted her entire family back in 1954 the creatures
	told her that she said are you angels and they said yes but not as you have been taught.
	In another case, with Lisa, she was also shown a carbon, a clone of her body.
	And she was not told anything about a spiritual use for this when the resurrection, when Jesus returns and we get our new bodies.
	No, she was told instead that this body, well it was used in a sense to threaten or warn her that if she were not cooperative with the ongoing program of whatever it is they're doing with her, that she could be replaced by this body and no one would ever know the difference.
	Those are not consistent answers.
	I wonder how many of us have been replaced?
	Well, in the next book that I'm getting ready to publish called Masquerade of Angels, we're going to delve into exactly that question because the... Oh, that is the title of your book, the working title, Masquerade of Angels?
	It is the title.
	It is, yes.
	Oh, what an intriguing title.
	What made you pick that?
	Well, I hope you'll get a chance to read this story and you'll probably see for yourself.
	It deals with one man's experiences, a psychic, practicing psychic for more than 20 years,
	a man named Ted Rice who began his work in Atlanta and is now in Louisiana and has lived
	a number of places.
	He grew up intellectually and spiritually into the spiritualist metaphysical, what would
	be the precursor of the New Age movement very early on, very intensely, very actively.
	He dealt with what he thought were spirit guides for a number of years until he had
	a massive, very intense abduction experience by obviously not spirit creatures aboard a
	spacecraft along with a number of the neighbors down the street where he lived.
	So he did a quick reassessment?
	He did begin to look for some explanations.
	Nothing his spirit guides had ever given him had anything to do with it, had ever prepared him or discussed it, whatever.
	So we began, this has gone on for several years now, the investigation into his Lifelong series of events is probably more in depth than any one investigation I've been involved in and we've got a number of signed affidavits attesting to the veracity of the accounts.
	We've done hypnosis with a number of people after their conscious recollections have been recorded.
	The verification of these series of events is extraordinary and among those we have to deal with the question of cloning and replacement and in fact the nature of the human soul.
	and what we may not have understood about it all along.
	The nature of the human soul.
	Exactly.
	Because one of the things, I will not discount, one of the things that's on my list of facts is that
	these creatures show a very, for me, very disturbing interest in the human soul.
	That's very interesting, Doctor.
	I did a series of interviews with a friend of mine whose name is John Lear.
	Do you know that name?
	Yes, I've heard Mr. Lear speak on a couple of occasions back in the 80s.
	Mr. Lear, in latter interviews, and I'm going to do another one, I hope, with him soon, referred to the human body as a vessel for the soul.
	Uh, that the, uh, the aliens regard our bodies as a vessel for the soul.
	Have you heard him say that?
	I've not heard him say that, but I've heard a number of abductees who have reported being told that and having that lesson stressed to them by the aliens, and I think there is a reason for that.
	Certainly, um, one of the things, not only in much of the alien contactee and channel material, but also in the New Age movement in general.
	All right.
	Doctor, I've got to hold you there.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Stand by.
	We'll be right back.
	is Dreamland.
	From the Kingdom of Nigh, you're hearing Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Much more than just a talk show.
	To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255. That's 1-800-618-8255. This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Well, it is that.
	This is the Dreamland program.
	All the numbers you just heard, though, are just fine.
	My guest is Dr. Carla Turner, and she's written two books, working hard on a third now.
	The first two, one called Into the Fringe, and the other, Taken, Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda.
	And frankly, that's what we've been talking a little bit about is their agenda.
	And we're going to do more of it in just a moment.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Stay right where you are.
	It's not that often that I get a chance to tell you all about a product that is effective.
	When we begin taking phone calls, I promise.
	So if you want to get on the lines, Dr. Turner is going to be available to you in just a moment.
	Dr. Turner.
	Yes, sir.
	I want to finish up on the souls.
	Yes, I'd like to go back to what we were discussing about before the break, if I could for just a minute.
	Yes.
	You were talking about John Lear saying that the bodies are containers or vessels for the soul.
	That's right.
	That's very different things.
	Going back to what we were talking about even earlier, if these interloping farmers had begun genetic manipulations with the species that they found here, to bring it up to a more useful level for them. One of the
	things that they might have tried to do or might have done was to increase the level of intelligence in the species so
	that it could in fact pretty much tend its own farm.
	If you get my understanding.
	I'm afraid I do.
	All right.
	And then this being what they proposed to do, the purpose of this is inevitably having its own reactions thereafter in the species, what might have led up to the transition that we're maybe making to a new level of intelligence, an additional perceptive intelligence.
	And if that were the case, and you knew that your cows were waking up, in this manner, wouldn't it be one of the things you would
	want them to very much believe, something you would want to instill in them very deeply to
	deemphasize the value of their physical nature and physical existence?
	Yes.
	Wouldn't you, if this is a product you are using in some way, wouldn't you want it to
	not have placing, be placing a great emphasis on its physical nature?
	And one of the things that they very often do tell abductees and contactees is that the
	body is of no importance, it is just a container, don't worry about it, free yourself from it.
	They downplay our physical existence very greatly in part of their programming.
	And I think I can see a reason why they might be doing that.
	If they regarded us as we might regard cows who are slowly awakening, yes.
	Right.
	It's a very unsettling, disturbing thought, though, for an awful lot of people.
	I know it is.
	It's for me, too.
	But when you start looking at the straight data, the real reports, not being censored and not being doctored in any way, you have to consider how do we account for all of this stuff.
	And we see over and over that they take from us, that they manipulate our understanding and screen our understanding of what they're
	doing with us and they're doing a great deal of physical work with us which seems to
	be also transgenerational.
	We've seen that as an ongoing genetic sort of program perhaps and if we were waking up
	to the fact of our being used, our being a resource, certainly they would not want us
	to be overly attached to our physical existence if they're using it.
	No, I do agree.
	All right, let's... I've got to do this.
	Let's go to the audience and begin to take a few calls.
	You've given me a lot to digest.
	On our toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Where are you, sir?
	I am in Seattle.
	Seattle, all right.
	Great show tonight.
	Thank you.
	Great show.
	I really enjoy listening to the doctor.
	Now, you were saying that There's been reports of bodily fluids being taken.
	Yes.
	Is that correct?
	Yes, that's right.
	Now, what if, say I was abducted 20 years ago, what are the odds of me receiving a phone call from Mars, collect, and somebody wanting child support?
	I mean, what, you know, if I have a son that's 20 years old on some other planet, what are the odds that I might meet him?
	Well, I think that's a humorous way to look at it, but I don't think you have to worry about it.
	If you were going to meet him, they'd probably make sure it took place.
	I would like to say, however, that I am not at all convinced they are actually hybridizing and breeding the way that they have very strongly led us to believe.
	I think there may well be something else going on, and that is a cover story, in effect.
	Great!
	So I wouldn't worry about any little babies out there as far as having living, breathing, individual soul-like existence as we understand it now.
	Certainly they do take our reproductive material and they're doing something with it.
	The evidence does indicate in some ways that they may well be using all that material to grow their little gray worker machine.
	Wow!
	Instead of making hybrid children as the point of their work. It may be a resource
	for their slave system, their machine system, their industrial equivalent, whatever you'd like to
	call it. All right, thank you. So, Dr. The Greys, as we call them, you may regard as sort of
	worker bees? Well, I certainly have, in my physical encounters with them, had a very strong and
	deep and clear impression that they They were not soul-bearing creatures.
	People have reported over and over again that they don't seem alive, there's no emotion, there's no soul energy.
	And a number of these worker sorts that come in and do sort of routine procedures, yes.
	And they are remarkably fetal, they're remarkably humanoid.
	They may be a genetically manipulated version of the fetus grown and developed in certain ways as a dedicated program machine.
	Do you think, doctor, this is way out in the speculative area, but do you think that we were supposed to become aware or do you think that this growing awareness that we appear to have is an unexpected byproduct?
	I think that it's likely it could be an unexpected byproduct.
	It may well be something that we would naturally have evolved to on our own without genetic intrusions at a much later time.
	It may be that there are other forces than human and alien who are also employed in the universe who may be helping in some way to wake us up.
	There are a lot of possibilities.
	On the wild card line, you are on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	Good evening, Art.
	This is Jim in St. Louis.
	Hi, Jim.
	Dr. Turner, thanks for doing the show.
	You're very welcome.
	Art, first of all, I had a question for you.
	I just was curious.
	I listened to the last couple of shows you've done last week and you always seem to ask
	your guests about the Creator.
	What is your personal theory as to the creator bit?
	As for your guest, Dr. Turner, what exactly are we talking about as far as the numbers go for this kind of phenomenon?
	Is it happening worldwide, outside of the country?
	Is there research being done in other countries?
	Also, I had a couple of theories that I wanted to run by you.
	The implant thing, being of organic materials that aren't otherworldly, isn't the best?
	I mean, I buy into the theory that that's just simply because they're not detected.
	I think it works that way very often, yes.
	Okay, and secondly, I was reading Dr. Jacobs' book, Secret Life, and I was trying to figure
	out if I was being abducted repeatedly and I had to put a stop to it.
	I was trying to think of ways that I would try to prevent this abduction experience from
	reoccurring.
	Right, I get the point.
	I know that they don't seem to like, I mean these beings, they don't seem to care for video cameras being around.
	They want to remain secret.
	Could you like perhaps handcuff yourself to your bed or something like that?
	We've had a number of people try, I mean people try a number of different ways to Of course you've heard the story of the person who did use a video camera set up toward the bed and when on nights nothing happened it showed absolutely no activity and then one night looking at the tape from that night what it showed was the person getting up out of bed going over to the wall and unplugging the video machine.
	What about getting the help of a third person, literally handcuffing yourself to the bed?
	One person right now has reached that point where they have tried tying themselves to her husband or to the bed and it doesn't seem to make any difference.
	Alright, he asked a couple of other questions about the numbers and whether it's a worldwide phenomenon.
	Well, Dave Jacobs I know probably reported, if you've heard him on interviews or at presentations he's given on the Roper poll a couple of years ago, that based on their statistics, estimated that perhaps 1 in 40 Americans had reported details that would match up with this scenario.
	Um, Jacobs has said in public and in private both that those numbers were actually much higher than that on the original poll statistics, and that frankly they watered them down because they didn't think people would believe them.
	So, we're talking about higher potential numbers than 1 in 40, or perhaps 1 in 20, or 1 in 10, we don't really know.
	Because, as we find out when people do wake up and become aware of it, it's been going on throughout their lives without them being aware.
	How many other people are not aware yet?
	There are a lot of people not aware, Doctor, and one phenomenon I've noticed from doing this kind of program is, of many of those who are not aware, when they're confronted with the kind of information you've been giving tonight, they respond with outright anger.
	I mean, they flat get angry.
	Absolutely, and that's a fear reaction.
	Anyone who has a very, very strong reaction, either obsessively or in angry and denying terms, One wonders what motivation, because that is not a typical, normal, unaffected reaction.
	And I can understand it.
	I don't want this to be true either, and I certainly have not been... I don't know that I would have ever chosen to be aware of it, to tell you the truth.
	All right.
	On our toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	Hello.
	How are you?
	Fine.
	Kimian calling from Portland, KEX.
	Yes, ma'am.
	Hello.
	I just want to make a few calls.
	Great show tonight, or a few comments.
	I feel that there are answers to these questions.
	Each weekend on Dreamland we keep hearing, we don't have the answers, we don't have the answers.
	I had an experience in 1986 so similar to Dr. Turner's.
	I too in Las Vegas saw a craft in the middle of a busy intersection with my husband at that time and no one else saw it.
	And I've often wondered if that's a phenomenon that other people have experienced.
	My life changed after that.
	I did much, much research.
	And a lot of my research has led me to books that involve people channeling information from beings through telepathy.
	Through telepathy, the same way that these abductors communicate through the abductees.
	I know a lot of people are skeptical when we mention channeling.
	I'm one of them.
	I'm another one because there's no possible way to verify anything that they give us, much less the source of the channeled material.
	I'm just a very skeptical person, I hope, by nature and by training both.
	If there is no way to confirm something, then it is certainly not a thing.
	I understand.
	So many of us want to find this information through the regular concrete way that we have
	done everything.
	I really liked last week's show because I think we are really beginning to get it out
	there that we may have to go through different avenues.
	We may have to look through ways we are not used to.
	I think we are being pushed to that.
	Of course we are.
	It is just what we were talking about with perhaps the transition to a species with more
	perceptive abilities.
	We have to learn to see what is happening to us, to perceive its reality before we can
	Let me ask this.
	and decide what response is correct.
	And it may well be that our response will be defensive.
	It may well be a thought-responsive accommodation.
	We cannot, but we cannot tell from channel material that is unverifiable
	which way we should be preparing.
	Let me ask this.
	Many, many abductions have occurred, and I do believe that they are occurring,
	and I do believe there's a reason for this new awareness and this sudden awareness of these abductions.
	And they always say that the way that the abductors communicate is through telepathy.
	So if, in fact, this is occurring, so many people...
	Art has never had an abduction memory.
	I don't have an abduction memory, and yet I believe it's true.
	I believe it when someone says, there.
	I heard them communicate with me through telepathy.
	I have very, very close friends and myself.
	I have telepathic abilities, but I can't prove it, just like the people who are on board can't prove they've been abducted.
	We have to start taking another viewpoint.
	All right, I do agree, but Dr. Turner, I've got to admit, I'm one of the ones not very comfortable with The way you're laying it out, I don't know why, it just kind of puts me on edge.
	I wish I could give you a beautiful picture, I just don't have one.
	No, I'm not asking you to do that.
	I'm just saying that my reaction to it, and I deal with this material all the time, my reaction is kind of an uncomfortable one.
	In what sense?
	I guess in the way you're describing what you think their intentions toward us may be.
	You're uncomfortable in that it doesn't fit what you know, or it's uncomfortable because it would imply something you wouldn't like.
	I don't understand.
	That's what I was asking.
	Yeah, I guess it would imply something that I wouldn't like, that I'm just not comfortable with, that we are to them perhaps as cows are to us.
	I'm not comfortable with it either, but reality is going to be what it is whether we're comfortable or not.
	That's what we're trying to figure out.
	And then getting past the point of being uncomfortable or afraid or angry and all the other emotions abductees go through and people who come to understand this is true whether they've had it happen to them or not that they're aware of, you've got to get past that to the next stage.
	That's stage one.
	Stage two is now what do we do?
	Okay, I'll bite.
	I like that.
	What do we do?
	I don't know.
	We haven't all hooked up enough yet to perceive it correctly.
	We are perceiving bits and pieces still and we are so highly manipulated by these beings that the nature of it is deceptive and elusive, illusionary.
	And until we can see past that and learn techniques I think for penetrating that we're not going to know how to respond.
	All right.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	Yeah, this is Jamie in Northeast Oregon listening to OK Go.
	Yes.
	And my question tonight, well, basically two things.
	The first one is in the evolutionary topic earlier tonight.
	Do you think that possibly rather than evolutionary, that the awareness I certainly don't.
	I think the awareness of this phenomenon is due to our technology now being so much more
	advanced than it has been in history, adding acceptance to the idea that we are not alone.
	I wouldn't think it would be our technology.
	What do you think?
	I certainly don't.
	For instance, what I see is an individual response to the phenomenon.
	I see people waking up to some of the illusions while they are still in the experience.
	They are not doing it through technology.
	This is a one at a time thing that I am seeing happen and yet it has a ripple effect through
	society's thinking and perceptions and acceptances.
	I don't think it's because our technology has perceived new things, but it has shown us at least that we're able, through other ways than the primitive five senses we know, to make perceptions.
	Now if we suddenly develop, for instance, the visual ability to see the ultraviolet and the infrared spectrum with our own eyes, Yeah.
	You know, that would be a change.
	That would be a transitional, a new phase or a new level of our perceptive ability.
	That's what I'm talking about.
	All right.
	All right.
	Back to the phone.
	So a lot of people want to talk to you on the wildcard line.
	You're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	Redding, California.
	Okay.
	Dr. Turner, I have had an experience like when your husband said that he was driving in the car And with his parents or something?
	With his father.
	Yeah, and I... I don't know how to describe it, but I've had a really similar experience right down to the scar on the back of my leg.
	And I was wondering, aside from insatiable curiosity, if there are any, like, altruistic reasons you can give me for pursuing something like this and what I should do?
	Reasons for pursuing the investigation of your own possible experiences?
	Yeah.
	Oh, um...
	Right now, to be brutally honest, I don't really recommend...
	No, I don't.
	If they're giving you problems, if you're having emotional problems, or relationship problems, or physical stress symptoms because every pressed memory is trying to surface, that's another thing.
	You may not have much of a choice except to go ahead and dive into it.
	But if it's just curiosity, and at this stage, knowing right now that... Two things.
	One, we don't know what to do about it at this stage.
	So it's not like I can say, yes, once you find out, then you can go do this and change the situation.
	You can't do that.
	At this stage we can't do that.
	The second thing is that if we are truly going through this transitional process and maybe coming to awareness, it will evolve in its own inevitability with you and it won't be a choice of trying to find out.
	It will be an awareness because you're taking in new perceptive information.
	Yeah, but if you're not being pushed, if you're not being stressed, I don't see what purpose will serve by doing it.
	You will change your life so dramatically with this knowledge if you uncover it now.
	I'd sleep a lot better.
	Right, and you can never forget it once you have uncovered it, so if you're not prepared for a real alteration in your life, I don't see why you would want to pursue it.
	Alright, thank you.
	So, in your view, unless there are psychological reasons Uh, it could be more damaging to pursue it than to just leave it alone.
	I won't say damaging, but I think frustrating.
	As far as being, she said, now if I delve into it, give me reasons why I should know what I can do.
	We don't know what we can do yet.
	That's why it would be very frustrating.
	Well, I'm remembering Close Encounters of the Third Kind when it began to make mounds of potatoes and became obsessed with it.
	Right.
	Then you really don't have a choice.
	That's what I was telling her.
	If it reaches a point where something internal pushes her, Hard enough.
	She will make a breakthrough in some way.
	Whether it's spontaneously or by feeling compelled to seek out an investigator or a hypnotist or whatever to try to get more information.
	And that will happen because she has to do it.
	Alright, Dr. Turner, stand by.
	We'll come back to you.
	Break time.
	You're listening to Dreamland, kind of a disturbing one, on the CBC Radio Network.
	Dr. Turner, hi.
	Hi.
	Alright, um, a lot of people want to talk to you, Dr. Turner, so I guess we better stay with the telephones.
	That's fine.
	To them we go, and the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
	Yes, this is Dee from Seattle.
	Hi Dee.
	I wanted to make a comment in regards to some experiences that I have had and I only remember them as greens.
	But I know that they fit in too well with some other categories.
	Right.
	As far as the little grey men, I do agree with you that they are slaves.
	I don't know.
	my experiences that I have had with them but the people that rule over them are almost military.
	Yeah there seems to be a lot of getting down to business with their procedures.
	Right and from my experiences it has almost been the perception that I hold some kind of rank
	there and I am I guess have a higher status than others.
	Well I will tell you that there have been a number of abductees who have been told at some
	point in their experiences are made to believe that they too are working in some conjunction
	with the aliens and are special and have a higher rank.
	So that is not the first I've heard of that.
	And I was wondering if anyone has had any experience of being shown a laser weapons system that they have been given the chemical formula for the gas?
	I would have to see more specifically what you're talking about before I would know if there were any real correlations with it, but people are told about technology, are told about certain kinds of physics, mathematics are discussed, devices are described and explained.
	This too is part of the program.
	In fact, one of the most extraordinary things I think I remember hearing, not in a case
	I investigated but that someone else had, involving three women abducted in the New
	Mexico area, taken to what they all three recalled as an underground facility of some
	sort where both non-human and human personnel were employed.
	And one of them saying that she put on a certain type of outfit and went to a machine, I guess
	an equivalent of a computer console type setup, said she punched in her code and then began
	working.
	One of the other women, however, went through the typical on-the-table examination.
	So, it's, you know, we don't know.
	Or perhaps the examination would possibly lead to an employment of some type.
	Well, but it was just an extraordinarily strange situation if three women abducted, two were examined, and one went to work.
	All right.
	Thank you, ma'am.
	Dr. Turner, stay good and close to your telephone for us.
	All right.
	Again, on the wild card line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
	Good evening.
	Hello there.
	Hello.
	Hi, I'm calling from Northern California, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	Oh, this is Sparky.
	Your guest there has lots of ride-on ideas and researching.
	Dr. Turner, it is?
	Yes, sir.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's probably been found out with all your research that Earth has a history of being sort of spiritually retarded.
	I can't say that that's been the finding of my research, no.
	Well, with what I hear, that, well, you're kind of getting the idea.
	I haven't been able to listen to the radio, so I'm not really, it don't really come in too good.
	Okay, so I'm lost that we're... Alright, well perhaps I misrepresented it.
	For our capabilities, for our natural capabilities, I think we are a fairly spiritual species.
	And again, circling back, we were not necessarily, in your view, meant to begin this awakening, to, in other words, realize what's going on to us, with us.
	That may be sort of a byproduct.
	Right.
	It could be an unhappy result of something unforeseen from the manipulations they have been doing with us all along.
	Or again, it may simply be part of a natural process.
	Whatever stage we're at after their manipulations, we still continue to change.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Debbie from St.
	Louis.
	Hi Debbie.
	I had a question about if they are interloping farmers, Then how do you explain the purpose for aliens showing women their hybrid babies and telling them to hold the child?
	Right.
	There's a number of possibilities that could explain it.
	One female who had gone through this process was very clear when it was over about her assessment of why they were doing it.
	She felt it had very little at all to do with the actual well-being of the child.
	That it was more of an experiment or test type situation to elicit certain emotional responses from her for whatever purpose that they needed them or wanted to study them.
	She felt that it had very little to do with the baby.
	The responses of people to these so-called hybrid infants that they're shown and told belong to them in some way ranges from instant love and bonding to repulsion to bewilderment to rejection.
	There's not an overwhelming sense across the board that these are really their children.
	There's that scenario being presented for them, but whether it's an accurate one or not, we don't know.
	So there's no sense of what they're trying to achieve with that kind of union?
	Well, I can see a number of reasons they might want to, but again, we're theorizing to bond us in a certain subordinate position, to convince us on some level that this is a benevolent interference.
	Um, to elicit more, uh, cooperation from it.
	If you're bonded by sharing offspring, that's a pretty close bond.
	It sure is.
	Uh, you're not always in equal relationships in that bond, however.
	Um, certainly there would be, you know, reasons for that kind of approach in the, in the setup, from their point of view.
	All right.
	On the, uh, wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	Good evening.
	This is Jody, KOH, Reno.
	Hi, Jody.
	Hi.
	Why is it, um, the last caller hit on it a little.
	Why is it that it's only the people reporting about the hybrid that you seem to doubt?
	And also, I'd like to know, who is it that you think the Bible is referring to when it speaks of demons and angels?
	Thank you.
	Great questions.
	I appreciate it.
	First off, I don't mean to imply that I doubt that part of Betsy's story.
	I do not.
	I know very deeply that these people are telling the honest truth, and it's a matter of Whether what they saw and thought they experienced is the actuality or if it is something else.
	One of the things I talk about in Taken and we'll be discussing in more detail in Masquerade of Angels is a capability these creatures have called virtual, what I call virtual reality.
	I borrow the term, I admit that.
	Where scenarios are created for a particular targeted person that feel to all the senses as if it is actually occurring when in fact it is not.
	And we've had a couple of cases where it has been witnessed by people outside this targeted person's sphere of activity who have watched.
	In fact, I talk about this in the first chapter of Taken.
	Two people unaffected watching a third person going through an experience that to her was absolutely real and she was awake while it was happening and they were in the room with her, but what she was convinced happened was not I don't know what demons and angels meant to the people who wrote about them originally.
	I'm not in their mindset or in their frame of reference to know what they specifically meant by themselves.
	I just know we give it a lot of different interpretations now.
	These creatures have capabilities that seem supernatural to us, but they would not perhaps
	seem that way if we had equivalent technology or if we had equivalent perceptive capabilities.
	I don't know if that's why we've always put these creatures perhaps on a supernatural
	plane.
	Well, she said, what do you think the Bible was talking about when it mentions demons
	It could have been talking about creatures like this in some instances, in some cases.
	I don't really know.
	I think that makes sense, given some other things that are recorded not only in the Bible, but in other world religious documents.
	Alright, on the toll-free line, you're on the air.
	Good evening.
	Good evening, this is Rich from Phoenix Calling.
	Hi, Rich.
	Dr. Turner, when will the medical profession that does abductee research, like yourself and many, many other doctors out there, psychiatrists, realize that the abduction scenario must be turned around in a positive direction?
	You can't stop it.
	You know it's going to continue.
	Get the fear out of the program.
	I agree with you entirely.
	There are two things going on in the abduction field right now, as far as I can tell, and one is abductee therapy.
	which is the major activity going on in the field, which is exactly what you say, helping
	people who need the help learn better how to cope with the scenario that they cannot
	change.
	That's therapy.
	I agree.
	I don't do therapy.
	I'm doing research.
	That's a totally different thing with a different goal and a different approach.
	But certainly, yes, you have to learn to cope.
	However, I would point this out also.
	It is the minority, as far as I can tell, of abductees who actually need medically trained
	mental health professionals to assist them in coping.
	Most of us have had this since our early childhood.
	We have already found coping mechanisms that we wouldn't have reached adulthood sanely.
	It is the minority or is it very temporary times that people go through so much stress
	or so much discomfort that they need professional help.
	For the most part we cope very well, thank you.
	It's funny, I'm trying to analyze my own feelings Dr.
	Turner about why this scenario, I guess the way you laid it out, disturbs me so.
	And he was talking about fear.
	I guess a little bit of this, to me, if this is true, I feel a little bit of that fear.
	I understand.
	I have felt it myself and I don't know anyone involved in this, even if they think it's the most wonderful thing that happened, has not felt some fear at some point.
	All I can say is that fear does you no good.
	You have to get it out of your system the sooner the better.
	Fear impedes you from having the ability to assess things in a rational manner or in an intuitive manner.
	That it does.
	That it does.
	Just as anger will also accomplish that on you.
	However, anger is a positively motivating emotion compared to fear.
	If you have to put an intense emotion into one or the other, I suggest anger.
	It helps you focus.
	It does help even your logic focusing, unless you're just in a rage.
	Well, exactly.
	Fear incapacitates your ability to react rationally.
	It does.
	It's true.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	No, you're not.
	On the wild card line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Hi.
	Radio Free America.
	Yes.
	Dr. Turner, are you familiar with the term Nephilim?
	Yes, I am, in the works of Fitton and in some references to possible ancient, or to ancient documents.
	Actually, it only happens, it's only in the Bible twice.
	In Genesis and in Numbers.
	And it refers to a race It was on the earth before the flood and then after the flood.
	And a lot of biblical scholars believe that angels at the time before the flood of Noah had intercourse with women.
	I'm familiar with that scenario.
	And what is your belief that this is what could be happening?
	Well it could be a partially or somewhat or a totally correct account of things that occurred.
	I'm not ruling that out.
	The level of its accuracy is something that's open to debate I certainly think.
	Perhaps that's a metaphorical way of accounting for a species coming in with the capability to genetically alter us so that we become a different race and we become in a metaphorical sense their offspring.
	I can see that as a possibility as much as it being a literal story or as much as it being a bewildered group's attempt to account for a phenomenon they couldn't otherwise explain.
	I don't know.
	Dr. Turner, who would you say is doing research that you most particularly admire right now of all the people in the field?
	In abduction work?
	Well, in the field generally, but since you're working with abductions, that would be a good area.
	Well, I certainly have a great deal of admiration for the woman who opened your program.
	I think Linda Howe is doing absolutely as accurate a work as one could ask.
	And certainly she's branched out from cattle mutilations to dealing with many other phases, including the abduction phenomena.
	I find we have a great deal of our own opinions about this based on what we've seen and
	dealt with very much along the same lines.
	Do you think that cattle mutilations are absolutely related?
	Yes, I do.
	I just don't understand the exact nature of the relationship.
	I really don't.
	All right.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr.
	Carla Turner.
	Good evening.
	Hi, this is John KBI.
	Hello, John.
	Question.
	I want to believe in what's going on, but I have one really kind of nagging question.
	I live in a housing development.
	What if the guy next to me is being abducted and I'm not?
	Why don't I see things external to my house?
	You could be turned off while these things are happening.
	For one thing, that would be the simplest explanation.
	People are turned off in the same bed with an abductee, much less next door.
	If it's necessary for you not to see it, you won't see it.
	So this could happen on a citywide scale?
	Of course.
	It happens in the heart of cities.
	It happens in small towns.
	It happens on the roads.
	And there was a lady that called earlier who said that she was in Las Vegas and only her and her husband saw a UFO in an intersection.
	Can that happen?
	Yes, of course it happens.
	It happens over and over again.
	That's what I was saying.
	There are at least two types of sightings reports.
	One is a random where anyone in the vicinity by accident can observe it and the other is where it's targeted and only the selected person or group can see it.
	Alright, let's ask this doctor.
	What about Any specific numbers?
	Are there more men than women abducted?
	Or women than men?
	Are any areas more likely than others?
	Is there anything you can pin down as you start to look at all these reports?
	Not a thing.
	Not a thing?
	Not a thing.
	No more abductions in this country than in France?
	I would not think so.
	There is research going on in various areas in Europe, very intensely and seriously, if quietly, and sometimes not so quietly.
	There's research going on in China, in Russia, in the former Soviet Union.
	There's research going on intensely in Japan.
	There's ongoing research in South America.
	I would think the cultural differences would make a great deal of difference in how many are reported.
	Yes, that's where the difference comes in on the question of men and women both.
	People who have run statistics on their own cases, like Jacob, San Hopkins and others, I think find a fairly even split between the sexes.
	Fairly even.
	We find it in all ages, from cases like in my husband's case of 11 months old, or even younger, up to people becoming aware of it for the first time in their 60s.
	And then finding out it had been there all along.
	I was going to ask about children.
	A number of researchers concentrate on children because they feel the possibility of coming up with evidence that is believable might be greater working with very young children who haven't been exposed to programs like this, for example.
	Well, they're being exposed to them from a very early age.
	They're being exposed to programming by the abductors, not by the media.
	Programming begins, I think, immediately with these recurrent abduction patterns.
	So, yes, they're getting programmed.
	It's not from us.
	Which brings me back to one of the things on my list of facts, and this is fact number three.
	During encounters, the human's perceptions are controlled, and so are the conscious memories in a number of ways.
	Also controlled are the human's perception of pain, All right, Dr. Turner, stand by.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We've got one more segment to go.
	It's Sunday evening, and so, of course, this is Dreamland.
	I'm Art Bell.
	of the reports over and over again. These are controlled, not just monitored, but manipulated.
	All right, Dr. Turner, stand by. We're at the bottom of the hour. We've got one more segment to
	go. It's Sunday evening, and so, of course, this is Dreamland.
	I'm Art Belk. Stay right where you are.
	This is a pre-recorded, previously broadcast program.
	Call Art Bell.
	In the Kingdom of Nine.
	Toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	In the kingdom of nine toll-free at 1-800-618-8255 1-800-618-TALK
	First time callers 702-727-1222 702-727-1222
	Or use the wildcard line at 702-727-1295 This is Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network
	Well, no, it's not.
	It's Dreamland, but the numbers are good.
	Good evening, everybody.
	My guest is Dr. Carla Turner.
	And the subject, of course, is abductions.
	And Dr. Turner, I'd like to ask you, What about, we haven't touched on this yet, what about the supposed great government cover-up?
	Is it your view that our government knows what's going on?
	It's my experience that there are government agencies of some sort involved in gathering information about this phenomenon.
	As far as the abductions are concerned, I can at least tell you that from first-hand experience.
	And I think the research of people in other aspects of this field have pretty much confirmed through A number of methods and means that there is government knowledge of something going on and some extent of involvement in studying it.
	A number of cases that I'm personally acquainted with and have investigated in some instances have had evidence and memory of as well as other kinds of evidence of interrogations by apparently human military personnel of some sort about this subject.
	In an abductee type situation, normally when they are compelled to go to a certain place to meet and be taken by these personnel and then to be questioned in an altered state of some sort before being returned.
	Sometimes they're threatened, sometimes they're not, but the subject of the questioning is what we are experiencing in these encounters.
	Alright, very good.
	Back to the phones.
	And on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
	Good evening.
	Yeah, so I'm calling from Southern Oregon.
	Yes, sir.
	I know a lot about the subject of UFOs, and I know quite a bit.
	I can tell you this.
	I think the only way that we'll be able to find out about what is really going on as we change our concept as regards the world of our environment, you know, a fundamental change in the way we see things.
	And I also wanted to add that I'm sure your guest probably knows about this, but certain mushrooms that contain tryptamines and psilocybin can also create... I don't know if you call it a... I guess you would call it a hallucination.
	The same sort of... Altered state?
	That UFOs produce.
	Yes, alright.
	Some sort of altered state, doctor?
	That may be true.
	I know that there are altered perceptions from certain hallucinogens, yes.
	However, in abduction phenomena we have evidence that is more than simply what a person thinks they saw or maybe hallucinated.
	We have external types of evidence after effects from these events that are very physical and external to the person.
	So we have evidence that at least in some cases these are physical phenomena.
	All right.
	On the wild card line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
	Good evening.
	Hi, Eric.
	Matt in Portland.
	Yes, Matt.
	Dr. Turner, you talked about it just briefly.
	I wanted to know what you found out in your research about the underground bases, what takes place in these Uh huh.
	If they do exist.
	If the reports are of a reality rather than of a staged or illusory scenario of some sort.
	And that's always a possibility without further external confirmation either way.
	Alright, I take that as a given.
	But the reports themselves, whatever their nature, talk about various kinds of activities in apparently underground facilities.
	Often they have both human personnel, either scientific or military or both, and then non-human creatures of various kinds in conjunction there with them.
	Sometimes these seem to be more or less military-type stations or bases.
	Some are reported to be research-type facilities.
	And others are reported to be what the people sort of refer to as processing plants in which very horrific scenarios are reported involving mutilations of humans and this is something that goes into the more lurid side of the material but nonetheless it comes from a number of different cases and reports, not just the few that people may know about, and it often has come from people who are what I call UFO virgins, who really have had little or no exposure to this material and certainly wouldn't know who John Lear was.
	Alright, Dr. John Mack last week and others who have been on this program.
	Have said that there's a strong message that comes from the aliens, or whoever they are, about ecology, about our ecosystem.
	What do you know about that?
	That's accurate.
	Many people are given messages or information about upcoming destruction or crisis situations on the planet.
	Some are shown scenarios as holographic future events of great physical destruction or other kinds of chaotic situations.
	Yes, that is reinforced with these scenarios, these visions and scenarios very often.
	All right.
	What about sending a message to the aliens?
	Does that sound crazy to you?
	In other words, if you've got somebody who's repeatedly being abducted Uh, what about the possibility of sending a message with them?
	To the aliens?
	Uh-huh.
	Well, if one were to, if we assume that the interaction is designed on the aliens' part for them to try to elicit certain information from us, They're after certain things, certain procedures or certain exchanges of information, if you will.
	You're not there as a voluntary, cooperating party who has any input into what's going to go on.
	They control what happens.
	So, you can't go in with a message from someone and expect them to pay any attention to it.
	It just doesn't seem to have happened.
	One researcher down in Houston, Daryl Sims, has been working with a rather intriguing idea, though.
	I've been planning post-hypnotic suggestions in people whose cases are currently intense that are set to go off at a subconscious level the next time the person is abducted so that they will do something extraordinary to try to break the scenario up.
	I'm glad somebody's working on that.
	Good.
	Alright.
	Yeah.
	Alright.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	I'm calling from Eastern Oregon.
	Yes, ma'am.
	And my question is These people, these abductees, do they ever report being able to feel these beings?
	Do they have a physical body that you can touch and feel?
	Absolutely.
	In many cases.
	Now that varies.
	There are some reports and some scenarios and I myself have had one like this where the beings have been with me and we've had telepathic communication but they appeared physically almost translucent.
	I could almost I don't know.
	them and this has been reported a number of other times.
	At other times they physically are quite there and they touch you physically and they can
	do things to you physically with at least physical marks.
	Yes, they have felt texture.
	My husband for instance described in his initial encounter at 11 months when the creature,
	the smaller creature that had come to fetch him from the car held him to carry him.
	He was only 11 months old.
	Carried him to the craft to transport him to the larger one.
	He could feel the texture and the solidity of the being that was holding him.
	When he was aboard the larger craft and a different type of creature was with him examining
	him closely, he even reached up and recalled touching inside the creature's mouth.
	This was not one of the little greys with the non-functional mouth.
	It had a mouth of a certain sort that has also been reported before and had an interior
	material that he said felt almost spongy.
	Oh, how odd.
	All right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	Good evening.
	Yeah, I had a comment based on an earlier caller's question.
	All right, sir.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Seattle.
	All right.
	And I was in regards to the angels part.
	I've done a little bit of research myself and the references I've gotten biblically has been like they've been referred to as stars, lightning flashes, storm systems, beings and whatnot.
	So it's kind of like anything that well and by the literal definition of the term it's messenger.
	So an angel or a demon is if someone perceives that they're getting some message from something or somebody based on their own perspective if they have a positive or negative reaction to it that will become
	an angel or a demon.
	If you remember I can remember a couple instances but nothing specific but it was like
	they telepathically communicated to whoever they were speaking to and one of the first comments
	that was communicated was fear not type of a thing like don't stress out over the situation
	and just kind of go with whatever is happening you know.
	And that's one of the very most common initial communications during an abduction, especially the bedroom encounter, is the creature communicates, do not be afraid.
	And another thing that you were saying about how people, you could be in an area and some people will see something and other people won't.
	Right.
	There was a phenomenon I heard of and related to, what was it called?
	Geophysics.
	Our geophysical warfare was actually a whole scenario that was researched by the government, but they had found out there was a natural phenomenon in the south of Germany.
	In the late summertime, there was a type of field that kind of inhabited an entire valley, and the whole valley kind of became lethargic and lazy.
	And it wasn't exactly, you know, they would try to do things or something, but they just kind of became listless.
	Kind of relaxed and couldn't really motivate themselves.
	So like, there's natural phenomena seeming to go on without any particular cause, but if someone has kind of researched this type of thing, they might be able to manipulate it down to a level where, you know, they can just kind of tune into a certain frequency.
	Well, it also may be one of the functions of the implants.
	Some people, well, we don't know what they are, so people hypothesize, and some think they're monitoring and tracking devices, others think that they are All right.
	Doctor, we have one last break.
	Hold on just a moment.
	We'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Dr. Carla Turner.
	This is Dreamland.
	Also that they are used to control in a number of ways the person with him in him their implant. All right, doctor
	We have one last break. Hold on just a moment. We'll be right back to you. My guest is dr. Carla Turner
	This is dreamland. Do you remember the time when you hi there? Dr. Turner? Hello. It's been quite a program
	You pull no punches Yes, I do.
	If information about this subject is negative, I've noticed you're not hesitant to present
	it.
	Do you think a lot of researchers hesitate to do that?
	Yes, I do.
	I think that even admittedly they do.
	For one thing, there are some people whose concerns also include getting as much general
	acceptance by the mainstream scientific, medical, educational communities as they can and you
	You cannot hit them with this full force with all of the raw data they feel.
	They try to make it more palatable so that they can bring the person or the group into this more gently, more slowly, where it becomes more acceptable.
	I can understand that.
	Also, it is a frightening situation sometimes if what we see is taken at face value.
	The trouble is right now, we just don't know if it should be taken at face value.
	With virtual reality capabilities, any number of things can be presented far I asked this of a number of researchers, and I will ask you.
	there so we're dealing still on a very primitive level with what in this is
	real. I asked this of a number of researchers and I will ask you given a
	choice if you were about to be abducted doctor and you had the opportunity to do
	it would you run like hell or would you sort of lay back and just experience
	what was about to happen to you?
	If I had a choice to experience it or not?
	That's right.
	Certainly I will say no until I have more understanding of what this is involving, of what the purpose is, what my part in it is, and what it's going to be ultimately used for.
	All right.
	On the wild card line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Jim and Chico.
	I'm listening to KPAY.
	Hi there.
	I had an off-the-wall question.
	Um, has the guest ever looked into whether the abductions are with people that are healthy genetically, like have no health problems in their family and so forth, or does it matter?
	It is a good question.
	What about that, Doctor?
	It doesn't seem to really matter.
	most of the general population runs. People with health problems, people who are inordinately
	healthy, people who develop health problems afterwards, people who are cured of health
	problems afterwards, people with handicaps, people with mental disabilities. It doesn't
	seem to matter. Have there been records of cures after abductions?
	Oh, certainly. Yes, of different kinds of either illnesses or chronic
	conditions or diseases, but as often as there have been cures, there have been reports of physical harm
	or after effects on the person after the abduction.
	Sometimes very serious, sometimes not so serious.
	See, the problem for any scientist is this whole damn thing is so random.
	Exactly.
	It's so random.
	You keep trying to put your finger on something.
	Well, they're more from here, or more of this type, or they're looking for this, or they're looking for that.
	But it seems to be utterly random.
	How frustrating.
	And even more frustrating when we count on certain things that we take for granted and everything else we deal with, is when you realize that also we may none of us have ever actually seen.
	I mean, this is possible.
	We have never actually seen what these things really look like, given their capabilities.
	Right.
	Right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	I'm pretty sure that what they're actually doing is taking samples and maybe growing their own species, cloning.
	What do you think about that?
	It's within the realm of possibilities, but it wouldn't explain all of the things that they do.
	I would have to see how all of the data would fit into that scenario.
	It would have to be more specifically explained to me before I could comment really intelligently.
	All right, wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Hello, where are you?
	This is Mark calling from Cogo in San Diego.
	Yes, Mark.
	Hi, Dr. Turner.
	I wanted to talk about an off-the-wall possibility, and that's the possibility that perhaps maybe the I don't want to say spiritual, but perhaps the mental powers of the collective intelligence of all the people are perhaps creating this or that they're bringing it into being?
	Well, that's a theory that I've heard expressed before.
	I mean, maybe it is off the wall.
	I think that we would have to then redefine what we call bringing into being I want to ask a question about what you said.
	You said that you thought the beings were more concerned with the physical rather than the spiritual or mental.
	Could you explain that in more detail?
	Unfortunately is not a primarily spiritual program as they would have us think sometimes and as we would ourselves like to believe sometimes.
	That they are here simply for say assisting us through an inevitable transition phase of some catastrophe or assisting us to make the transition psychically and spiritually to the next dimension or level.
	Things like this are reported very frequently.
	I don't think that explanation is covered by, or covers the data in the very
	physical procedures that are as much a part of this as anything else that these beings do. All
	right doctor this is out of left field but I do a lot of on-air programs and I've noticed that I'm
	getting a lot of calls from people who feel something is impending, something is, something's
	going to happen.
	Something big is coming.
	Kind of an unsettled, non-specific, something's coming sort of feeling.
	Yeah, this is being fostered, I think, massively.
	I'm not sure who's doing all the fostering, although some of the alien groups, if there are various groups, and we can theorize there may well be, are promoting this idea very heavily.
	Also, some of the people with military backgrounds who talk about and research in this field have pointed toward that as well.
	They may well have information from some sources we're not privy to.
	All right.
	On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
	Good evening.
	How are you doing?
	I have a few questions.
	All right.
	Go ahead.
	I just wanted to state my opinion.
	The UFOs are along the same line as parapsychology and stuff like that.
	Roger, we don't have a lot of time, so... Okay, well I think it's on the same line as parapsychology, mahabhava and astrology and astral bodies, auroras, tarot cards, witchcraft and magic.
	I'm sorry, this is a sudden surprise.
	I've been trying for about an hour to get through.
	I think that this kind of stuff that she's talking about and represents just...
	pretty much sets the stage for what's to come. I don't think, if I may say, Satan wants a world
	that doesn't believe in religion. I think he wants a world that believes in supernaturalism.
	All right, sir.
	I'm sorry, but we're going to have to stop it there.
	Dr. Turner, we are out of time.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm terribly sorry.
	We're going to have to do this again.
	You've been a very good guest.
	While it's been unsettling, it's been fascinating, and I would like to know that you would come back and do it again.
	I would very much like to.
	There's so much material we didn't even get close to talking about, and I would love to do it again at any point.
	May I add one thing about my book?
	Sure.
	It is not now just exclusively take any individual orders, but many bookstores, especially
	the ones that carry this material routinely can get it from a number of distributors
	nationwide now.
	Thank you, Dr. Turner.
	You're very welcome.
	Enjoyed it greatly, Art.
	Take care.
	Anybody who wants a copy of this program or any Dreamland program can get it by dialing 24 hours a day 503-664-7966.
	503-664-7966.
	503-664-7966. 503-664-7966. Good night, everybody.
	This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor
	neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not that.
	Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
	Please join us again next week at this time for Dreamland.

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