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Aug. 21, 1994 - Art Bell

02:00:11

Dreamland with Art Bell - Alien Abductions - Dr. Karla Turner

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25:45

dr karla turner

01:06:26

linda moulton howe

06:05

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not matched, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		It certainly is.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Welcome to another Dreamland.
		Sunday evening, I'm Ardell.
		My guest shortly is going to be Dr. Carla Turner, published with regard to the human abduction syndrome.
		A number of books, as a matter of fact, should be coming to us from Arkansas.
		First, though, as always, we're going to turn to Linda Moulton Howe.
		All the way back in Philadelphia, Linda kind of keeps watch on the UFO community, crop circles, animal mutilations, that sort of thing, the whole spectrum, the whole range.
		And she does so most times from Philadelphia, which is where I believe we're going to find her this evening.
		Linda, welcome to the program once again.
unidentified		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, this summer, one of the stories that I have touched on now two or three times has been the finding of mutilated animals in northern New Mexico.
		There were in May two steers on the Eli Hornich ranch in Angel Fire, New Mexico, which is east of Taos.
		And two of those steers were examined by both a veterinarian and pathologist Dr. John Auchuler in Denver, Colorado, who confirmed that all the excisions of tissue in both of those animals found the same day on May 14th had been cut with high heat.
		Since then, there have been other mutilated steers found July 24th and August 17th, and now by this weekend, the 13th animal has been found on the same ranch.
		And tonight I talked with Albuquerque investigator Gail Stalin, who spent this weekend on the ranch, went out to help collect tissue samples for me and for Dr. Alchour.
		And right now, I want to have our listeners hear her first-hand report, and then I'll give an update on another pathology exam after that.
		So here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And once again, this is our new sound system.
unidentified		This pool was laying north of the water towers, I'd say maybe a mile.
		So we walked to the site.
		It was by a little pond, and it was laid on its left side.
		The rectum looked like it had been poured out.
		The band just was kind of, it looked like it had been singed in a way.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was it darkened and smooth?
unidentified		Yes, it was darkened.
		So we went ahead and took samples of that area.
		We opened up the mouth and noticed that half of the tongue was missing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So we took samples of that, and how was that cut?
unidentified		Just in a straight cut.
		Vertical?
		Yeah, straight across.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And very, was it very smooth or it was pretty smooth.
unidentified		It didn't look like the buzzer's had been on it or anything because the mouth was closed.
		But the tongue was definitely removed part of it.
		I would say this apple was maybe 850 pounds.
		The penis was gone.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how was that removed?
unidentified		It looked like it had been poured out also.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Meaning, was it hide deep or deeper?
unidentified		Oh, it was deeper.
		It was deeper than just hide.
		Deep.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was it deeper?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Like, describe the kind of hole.
unidentified		I would say it was maybe eight inches round, and it was just a hole.
unidentified		Just a hole where it had been removed.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what could you see in the hole in the cavity of the body?
unidentified		Well, nothing, really.
		I mean, you could tell that it was gone.
		You could see part of the rib cage, I guess, was there.
		Some type of a bone.
		I know the hip bone was exposed.
		The buzzards seemed to have been kicking at that because it was torn tissue.
		You know, the hide was torn around the hip.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		But that appeared to be after these other excisions after the fact.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And were all the excisions in the rectal area and the penal area, were they dry?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was there fluid?
unidentified		They were dry.
		They were pretty well dry.
		It wasn't real moist until we cut into it.
		And the blood inside was a real watery, it looked like real watery down blood.
		It wasn't real thick.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and so you were trying to get some lung tissue and some internal tissue?
unidentified		Right, we were trying to get lung samples.
unidentified		The heart was real mushy.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Was only the heart mushy?
unidentified		No, there was the liver was kind of mushy.
		But the heart was just, oh, it looked bad.
		But the lungs were pretty clear.
		I didn't see any marbling in the lungs.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Which may have been, if there had been marbling, it could have suggested pneumonia or something.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		We didn't see that, but we went ahead and took samples of it anyway.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what about the ear and the eye?
unidentified		Okay, the ears were intact.
		The eye was gone.
		It looked like buzzards had been kicking at it, you know.
		So I couldn't really tell if the eye was missing due to anything other than the buzzard, you know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, was this the animal where there was a report from a neighbor of a large black helicopter over the animal?
unidentified		Not that I know.
unidentified		I didn't tell any of the neighbors.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Yeah, I think that two this week.
unidentified		so I really don't know which one this is because I didn't see the one earlier in the week.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it was the one on Wednesday because I talked with Eli about it.
		Okay.
		And this was uh there was a large black helicopter that was seen right over the area.
unidentified		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Um.
unidentified		And a lot of the townspeople have seen that.
		They've seen this helicopter.
		They're quite aware of the helicopter activity going on.
		Um and they also say, gee, you know, anytime we see the helicopters, we know Eli's going to have another one.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Anything special about this particular helicopter?
unidentified		I have been told that it's a bell-shaped helicopter.
		The front of it, the front end of it is glass.
		So it's probably an older one.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		A bell-shaped helicopter?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		How would you explain a bell-shaped helicopter?
unidentified		Well, that's what the people up there say it is.
		A few people told me that.
		That it was a bell-shaped.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Do they actually hear the sound of the helicopter associated with it?
unidentified		I asked them and they said yes, that they did hear it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And then we get back to the question of whether this is something that is government monitoring of frequencies that might be associated with whatever the phenomena is involved with mutilations, or is it something else altogether?
unidentified		Right.
		Yeah, I have no idea.
		The people are very concerned.
		Very, very concerned.
		There's been a lot of media coverage up there.
		I think they're getting tired of it, but they're concerned.
		They're glad that we're there to help.
		They really appreciate it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Has anybody in the area ever in the last month or two or three reported any unusual strange moving lights or beams of light in the area?
unidentified		Eli's branch hand said that he saw something on the other side of the mountains on the Cimaron side that looked like an orange basketball in the sky.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		When was this?
unidentified		This was back in May when we went out in May.
unidentified		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So that gives you a kind of overview of some of the activity that has been happening as recently as this weekend in northern New Mexico.
		That orange basketball description was probably one of the most common reports in the 70s when there were so many mutilations throughout the United States and Canada and other parts of the world.
		And I think it's also especially interesting that now we've had two this week, one right after the other, both males.
		And the July 24th mutilation I talked with Dr. Auchular about, that was about three weeks ago.
		And he said that he has been able to examine the tissue from that one.
		And again, he is finding what appears to be the suggestion of high heat.
		So we are going to try to keep at least building up the case files from a pathology and a veterinarian point of view on these animals that is at least separating them from normal disease and predator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Wow.
		What a story.
		All right.
		Linda, as usual, I want to be sure to get your address out to everybody because I know a lot of people in the audience try to want to communicate with you.
unidentified		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And I really do enjoy seeing these letters because they are giving me a kind of cross-section of what people who are listening to Dreamland around the United States are experiencing in their own lives, not only now, but some of the more interesting letters have been experiences by people going back to the 40s and 50s in which they have never ever told anyone before.
		And in some cases, those stories are totally, they appear to be uncontaminated by current literature.
		So my address, it's Linda Howe, and it's post office box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, spelled H-U-N-T-I-N-G.
		D is in Dog O N Valley, Pennsylvania, and the zip code is 19006.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I hope that if anybody has anything, they'll whip it right off to you.
		And I've got a couple of things headed your way as well, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And I am trying to make sure that we're covering a lot of waterfronts.
		I had mentioned last week about Jupiter, and I do intend to do an update.
		In fact, there was a meeting in Europe this week with one of the scientists from MIT that I'll be interviewing.
		And I wanted to keep up with the current headlines now.
		And since they haven't finished this meeting, I think that by next Sunday we should have an even better overview.
		And I'll still keep trying to update on what happens in northern New Mexico, crop circles, and all these other subjects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda Howe, thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And talk to you next week.
		That's Linda Howe.
		Amoya Sunner received an M.A. from the University of Nottingham, England, and a BhD in English from the University of North Texas.
		For over a decade, she taught college English and other professional work, including writing and editing.
		In 1988, she and her family were forcibly made aware, forcibly, of alien involvement in their lives.
		That came after a daytime sighting of the UFO by her husband, Casey, a computer specialist.
		With the help of Barbara Arthollik, I believe it is, an abduction researcher in Oklahoma, Dr. Turner explored the past and current alien encounters that came to her, including her husband, son, future daughter-in-law, and several close friends.
		The story of the first year of this investigation is presented in her first book, Into the Fringe, published in 1992 by the Berkeley Publishing Group.
		Working first with Mrs. Barthollick, and then later independently, Dr. Turner began to research other abduction Cases in her local area of north central Texas.
		Since then, the cases have come from many other areas around the country.
		Her latest research findings are presented in Taken, Inside the Alien Human Abduction Agenda, published in April of 1994 by KELT Works and available exclusively from them by writing to Post Office Boltz 32, Roland, Arkansas, 72135.
		In Taken, Dr. Turner presents eight detailed abduction accounts from women in Texas, Alabama, Tennessee, Florida, New York, and Puerto Rico, as well as an update on the events she and her husband have both experienced.
		Some of the little-known events discussed include medical, sexual, psychological, and metaphysical procedures.
		In addition to these alien contacts, several of the women also tell of surveillance, intrusion, even abductions by U.S. military personnel.
		The correlations of these accounts and the insights gleaned from their experiences make a powerful case for UFO and abduction researchers to expand the recognized parameters of the abduction phenomenon.
		They further call into serious question most of the theories that have been offered in explanation of this activity.
		And so now, to all the way to Arkansas and to Dr. Carla Turner.
		Dr. Turner, welcome to the program.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Art.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Nice to be with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
		Hold on just one second.
		I'm going to put you over here instead.
		Okay, we've got you over in another place.
		Dr. Turner, apparently all this began then with an experience you had.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, it began with an experience my husband had.
		As far as our coming to having to deal with this, being aware of ongoing activities that once we began to investigate, of course, like most people who've had these experiences, we learned that they went back to childhood.
		But being aware of what they were, that did begin really with a sighting in December of 1987 of a spherical metallic object over the courthouse in the town near Lynch that my husband had.
		And there was missing time when he went up on the hill to watch, try to figure out what this object was before it made a decision.
unidentified		This week's customer, because it really wasn't part of the thing he felt we had thought about or studied in any way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of a description did he have of the object beyond spherical?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, how close was it?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		He saw it while he was driving home from the grocery store, and he drove to our house and walked about half a block up a hill.
		From there, he had a vantage view of downtown where the courthouse was, where this object was, and it was less than two miles away, much less, probably.
		The object was hanging above the courthouse, stationary.
		There was no movement, no sound.
		It was not glowing with light, but it was a burnished metallic color, coppery colored.
		It seemed to be a total sphere, complete sphere.
		And it was fairly large, given that it was that close, if it was as close as it appeared to be, which was right over the center of town.
		And he watched it trying to figure out what the object might be, a weather balloon or even a movie prop.
		As I mentioned in the book, we lived in an area near Dallas where movies were often made on location.
		And it really, that was all he thought he was seeing, but he watched it for what he consciously perceived to be less than 10 minutes.
		And when he turned around to walk back down the hill, because he'd given up on figuring it out, a significant amount of time had apparently passed he hadn't been aware of, and it was almost dark.
		Whereas it had been quite daylight when he had gone up the hill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then how much time are we talking about?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Probably 45 minutes or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		45 minutes?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, probably.
		Somewhere around there.
		Depends on what time we'd have to go back and look at, you know, measuring the times.
		We're just guessing because it was daylight when he went up there.
		It was almost dark when he turned around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then how did he digest all this?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		He didn't.
		He told me about it.
		I wasn't worthy.
		He told me about it.
		He wasn't overly excited.
		He was curious because he'd never seen anything like it.
		And he had no explanation.
		As I said, he didn't even think the word UFO.
		When he talked about it with me, that never was even mentioned.
		We assumed it was a movie prop and looked in the newspapers, treated it very ordinarily.
		But a couple of days later, he did have an unusual event.
		He found a scabbed over deep incision on the back of his leg, and he got extremely angry about it for no apparent reason.
		He didn't know how he got it.
		It had not been there that he'd been aware of at least very long because he just found it when it was scabbing and beginning to itch.
		It's a scab will cure sometimes.
		No injury had been inflicted on him that he was aware of, but he did get angry about the cut, and we did not connect the two events.
		So they're just looking back, you begin to see connections.
		Really, we forgot about it at that point on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, did he have any desire to, when he began to figure this out, or connect the two and connect the whole experience, did he then want to follow up, maybe get hypnosis, or try and dig into it and figure out what happened?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but that was several months later.
		This was in December, right before Christmas in 1987.
		And as I said, when we didn't see anything in the paper about it, we forgot about it.
		A day or so later, he found a scar.
		He did not connect it with the event.
		And then we forgot all about it totally.
		What happened was that we both began to develop intense stress symptoms, physical stress symptoms.
		And these led us, after they persisted and we couldn't understand why we were both having such physical symptoms, it led us to go into counseling to try to figure out what was wrong.
		And we each went to separate counselors because we worked in different cities.
		And my counselor taught me to do self-hypnosis to relax the physical symptoms I was having.
		His counselor didn't.
		They simply talked about whatever they could come up with.
		And after about three or four sessions, the counselor told him that, frankly, he couldn't find a specific problem for them to work on.
		He couldn't tell him what the cause of the stress was.
		And it was at that point that I offered to show him how to do hypnosis so he could relax the symptoms.
		He was having a number of physical symptoms, including numbness in the leg where he had had the cut on the back of his leg all the way down, that entire leg to the Foot would have pain and numbness and tingling.
		He had vision problems, headaches, stomach aches, back problems, just an extraordinary number of stress symptoms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you decided then you were going to sort of teach him some process of self-hypnosis to try and relieve some of this?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Strictly just what my therapist had taught me.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And I had only been to him twice, so this wasn't like I was any adept at it, nor did I explore anything further than just wanting to relax the symptoms I was having.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dr. Turner, hold on just a moment.
		We'll come right back to you.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		This is Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		And it sounds like there's a lot more of this story and her follow-up research to hear.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Stay right there.
		From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255 1-800-618-G-A-L-K.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 area code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now again, here I am.
		My guest is Dr. Carla Turner here from Rural, Arkansas.
		She's published, is the author of In the Fringe and Taken Inside the Alien Human Abduction Agenda.
		And we're talking to her about how all this began, which was an experience by her husband.
		Dr. Turner, you still there?
		Good.
		So there was your husband trying to relax himself in the techniques you taught him that have been taught to you.
		And where do we go from there?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Very simple.
		He went into a fairly light trance quickly.
		He was testing himself for the state of the trance.
		And the only question that he really needed to ask himself when he got there, after he was relaxed, I thought it might be a good idea to do what the therapist had done with me, and that was to ask your subconscious to show you the cause of the stress.
		And he mentally asked that question of himself and immediately had a strong, startled physical reaction and had apparently opened up a memory that he had never had any conscious inkling about at all.
		And he told me in exclamatory tones he saw a face.
		He described this very unusual face.
		And then in amazement, he told me he saw this gigantic ship.
		And I didn't, you know, in the sky, a spacecraft.
		And he said it was huge.
		He said the size of a small town.
		It was this enormous craft.
		And there were a series of very strange things, including some non-human phone call that we received right when he said that the phone rang.
		And I got this extraordinarily almost metallic or insectoid sounding chattering on the other end of the line at me, and then it just went dead.
		And I brought him out of the trance.
		I didn't know what had happened.
		This just was more than we could handle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm sure it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's really odd.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And I contacted my therapist the next morning and said, you know, my husband remembered something very strange when he put himself in a trance last night.
		Would you talk to him?
		And I told him what he had remembered, and he just sort of scoffed at it and said, I don't know what it was, but I'm sure it wasn't flying saucers and little green man.
		There aren't any such things.
		And it was a while.
		Apparently, we couldn't find anybody.
		Actually, I contacted several people in the area for help.
		And when nobody would respond, he went back deliberately into another trance state to see what that was about.
		He was extremely curious to know what the context was for these memories that he had suddenly had burst through a few nights before.
		And that's really how it all began.
		When he went back and looked, he recalled bits and pieces of what seemed to have been an abduction by non-human little creatures when he was only 11 months old on a trip in the car with his father.
		And he had never remembered this at all, anything about this ever.
		And his parents came from several states away to visit the next month, and we did have a chance to ask them about the situation as he remembered it without telling them what he had remembered.
		And it was confirmed in a number of ways that, yes, the trip had been made under exactly those circumstances in that area at precisely that time.
		We pinpointed the day it happened because it was a memorable event because his father and he were almost two hours later returning from a very short errand.
		They were supposed to run for business than they should have been and had no explanation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, this was in 1987, and this kind of launched you into an investigation of the entire phenomenon.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It launched us into looking into what had gone on in his past.
		In the process of the investigation with Barbara Barthlick, I was also questioned about anomalous past events myself and turned up things I had consciously always remembered but had never accounted for in any particular way.
		And we began looking into things in my past, and then we began having a series of current encounters, intruders, whatever you would like to call it.
		People vary on how they feel about it, but we certainly felt intruded upon.
		And this involved my husband and myself, and my son, who lived in a different place.
		He was a graduate student in college.
		His fiancé and his roommate.
		And this was an ongoing series of intense events for well over a year before things finally calmed down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this was affecting your entire family?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they were having, and you had had experiences?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I had things that I had always remembered consciously, but I didn't know what they meant.
		And I think you'll find this story from any number of people who, once they wake up to a particular experience, it seems to be a trigger.
		For instance, my husband did recall later under hypnosis what had happened in December of 1987 in the missing time period as he was watching this craft over the center of town.
		He remembered an abduction occurring.
		He remembered a series of physical events taking place in a very rushed and hurried atmosphere.
		And he remembered at one point When this incision was made deep into his leg, being told, now you will remember.
		It is time to remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Turner, if this craft appeared over the center of town, that was the phrase you just used.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right, in the daytime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then lots and lots of people should have seen it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things I know now that I certainly didn't know then, after devoting several years of full-time effort to researching the entire subject, one of the things we know are that there are at least two kinds of sightings of craft.
		And there is one which seems more or less random and open, where many people in an area will spot the craft from different points of vantage points wherever they are in the area.
		People along the freeway pulling over and watching craft.
		There were flat sightings like that reported intermittently throughout this history.
		But there are also targeted sightings that target the perceptive ability of only one person or a small group of people in a large area.
		And this is very common that even in some case reports we've looked into, there might be a group of people, say five or six, within a 20-foot radius of each other, and a craft appears that only three of those people are able to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
		So then craft are able to do that, you believe.
		They're able to be seen by those they want to be seen by and nobody else?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I have no doubt about it.
		It's not a matter of belief.
		I think it's proven.
		Yes.
		Also you have to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Proven by what means, Doctor?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		By report, as much as anything in this field is going to be proven, so maybe I should modify the term or at least define how I'm using it.
		To my satisfaction, I have a very short list of things I consider facts in this phenomenon because they are extremely hard to pin down.
		Things change, perceptions are distorted, and there's so much deception at the heart of the entire phenomenon, an illusion there, that pinning down any kind of fact is just almost impossible.
		But I think it's been confirmed to me at least by a number of investigated events that there are targeted sightings in which people are targeted for the sighting and the people with them are not.
		In fact, I had witnessed a version of this last December.
		My mother-in-law, my husband, and I were called by some other people in the county where we live now that they had had a sighting of a craft and it was moving.
		When it moved away from their area, it moved in our general direction.
		And we went out onto the road to an open spot on the top of the mountain ridge where we lived so we could see a great distance and we watched the craft come in and traverse the horizon less than a mile from us.
		And we watched it all together talking about it as we watched it.
		And when it was gone and we were recapping what we had seen, we each had seen it with different colors doing different types of expressions of color and light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that makes collection of data a little more difficult, doesn't it?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one of the points I was trying to make and take in, that just about everything we took for granted has to be questioned in this field.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		We can't really accept at face value what abductee perceptions honestly report because they are manipulated to such a great degree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of a mix of the UFO phenomenon do you think there is beginning to be with the metaphysical, doctor?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there's always been a great mix of it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Don't you, if you look back even to the contactee cases?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do interview after interview with people like yourself week in and week out, and I have noticed, Doctor, much more of a movement toward the metaphysical in an attempt to explain all of this.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think there's a great deal of motivation toward that point of view, both in the UFO community.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Factions of the research community promote this view very heavily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's very difficult, though, for a hard scientist to swallow it.
		But nevertheless, people like Dr. Mack, who was with us last week, are beginning to move in this direction.
		And I wonder if there, in other words, as we continue to investigate this entire phenomenon and we want to approach it through the metaphysical, how do we do that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, in just a moment when we have a break, I'll pull out a little statement that I had put together trying to deal with how do we approach this phenomenon?
		What are our options?
		And I'll share that with you after our next break.
		But one thing, we have, whatever one's approach may have been to this phenomenon in the past, there seems to have been such an acceleration of activity in all phases of it since the, I would say 1986 was just a starting point, although that's very vague.
		There's been such an intense increase in activity.
		I think it has chipped and hammered away at everyone's preconceptions about this phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long do you think we have been visited on this earth?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can give you a personal opinion.
		I can't give you a statement based on data.
		Personally, I think it may well have been for centuries, if not more than that.
		In fact, jokingly, or half jokingly, talking with another person who's involved in this field a couple of days ago, I said, you know, maybe abductees isn't the correct term really for what we're going through.
		I said, sometimes it does seem like perhaps everyone has had these experiences and always have.
		Maybe it's just that something is triggering the species to begin waking up to how to perceive that this is going on.
		And the waking up process hits individually one at a time.
		And maybe we're seeing a massive movement toward that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you to know, or how can you be sure, or assure us, that the experiences that you became aware of your own and of your husband's were not part of this great false memory syndrome that everybody's talking about?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's limited to what one recalls under hypnosis to begin with and then elaborates thereof as I understand it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Would you agree with that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, false memory?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		The basis of false memory syndrome, as far as I have seen it presented, is that in hypnotic regressions, ideas are implanted and elaborated, but thereafter are counted as real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's correct.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, the things in my life that we began looking into, I had always remembered since the time they happened very consciously.
		There was no hypnosis when I was, for instance, I remembered the first event before I was six years old.
		I remembered it when it happened.
		I remembered it the next morning.
		I remembered it thereafter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What event was that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Waking up in the Middle of the night, or coming to consciousness, I won't say waking up, but coming to awareness, conscious awareness in the middle of the backyard in the middle of the night by myself as far as my family was not there.
		And this creature that was very tall and very thin, and in my child way of thinking, I called it a giant grasshopper because it was very insectoid looking, had hold of my arm and was telling me it was my mother, and I was screaming back at it, no, you're not.
		I had remembered that since it happened.
		That was not something that came up out of a hypnosis session.
		I had never even delved into it with hypnosis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you tell your real mother about that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		Of course.
		And they dismissed it, as I guess any parent would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bad dream.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		As a bad dream.
		But I was very much aware of being awake and being in the backyard and this creature being beside me.
		That, for instance, had always been in my consciousness.
		Another incident that had happened in the 1970s driving on a daytime trip on the interstate, a strange, almost solid-looking black cloud-like object had swept horizontally from beside the interstate onto the road in front of me, stopped right over covering both lanes, and hovered there.
		And I thought, you know, trying to make sense of it at 70 miles an hour, what an enormously dense black cloud of smoke.
		Wonder where it came from.
		Hope I don't hit anything when I drive through it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And remember bracing to go through this, and then the next thing I was aware of was seeing it in the rearview mirror behind me, still on the road, and never had any memory of going through it.
		That I've always remembered.
		These were not things that came up out of hypnosis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then your thinking is that everybody or almost everybody may have had these experiences?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I would not rule it out, honestly.
		And although six years ago I would have absolutely denied that was a possibility, I can't deny it's a possibility now.
		I don't have any way of knowing.
		It may simply be that we are waking up to something that's been a condition of ours for eons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something that's been going on for a long, long time.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		We may be coming to new perceptive, just for metaphorical times, a tricameralism of the psyche.
		We are a bicameral psyche right now in a number of ways.
		We may be developing a new set of perceptive abilities that will take us to another stage of perception.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that some sort of process of evolution, do you think?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, either a leap, a mutation, a natural process.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		You know, when it happens through the generations, there's always one generation at least that's transitional, if not, you know, more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If not more.
		Many believe that the process of evolution is so slow that no single generation could notice a change.
		But you're suggesting we may be one of those, what's the right word?
		I'm becoming lost here, but we're a transitional, that's the best way to put it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That may be.
		There are other people whose ideas about evolution are that as long as it may well go along slowly for the most part, and then there are unexplained quirky little leaps where it is fairly fast.
		For instance, the evolution of the Homo sapiens has some quirky little leaps in it that are not explained.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're on a fascinating tangent.
		Hold on just a moment, and we'll come back to you.
		Dr. Carla Turner is my guest.
		Do you think we're in some sort of a transitional, It's a new one.
		Some sort of transitional change.
		Fascinating.
		Never thought about it that way.
		We'll be right back.
		Are you there?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sure now.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So perhaps we are some sort of transitional generation, and we're all slowly becoming aware of this.
		That would also, by the way, be validated by the interest in programs like this one.
		And it is amazing how much interest there is.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there is.
		This is part of a lot of people's awareness as they study this in the last few years.
		You know, I think I had a real advantage not knowing anything about the entire field or history of ufology when we were thrust right into the middle of it.
		And being able, having been trained through my academic work to assess and gather data, to analyze trends and historical perspective and context in different areas of activity, I was able to take in rather quickly, through a great deal of work, the history, at least that was in print, of all the different studies and approaches to this field in a fairly short amount of time.
		So I was able to get an overview.
		And one of the things that stood out was this acceleration of change after a certain point in the modern time.
		There seemed to have been sort of a status quo for centuries.
		If you look at the work of Jacques Valley and others who've delved into the legends, the myths, the religious lore, the historical records, in fact, from ages before ours and see that there were these intermittent accounts that fall within the realm of the UFO phenomena, it was fairly static as far as the acceleration of activity until the modern age.
		And then we see certain kinds of activity beginning and then beginning massively and then those becoming more and more complex leading up to the massive numbers of people who I believe are telling the honest truth about what they think has happened to them, reporting honestly on events as they've perceived them, and the numbers are staggering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think all this is headed toward?
		This increased awareness, even this evolutionary change.
		What is it headed toward?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well again, I'm having to speak from a fairly educated opinion, but certainly no one in this field can claim to have any hard and fast answers from which to work.
		So we're all making guesses.
		But I think that if you look at studies that show species societies or groups in intense stress situations go through a metamorphosis, often physically they'll sicken and die.
		If they don't, they have physical, I mean, mental adaptation processes.
		They get pushed to react and respond in ways they haven't been forced to before simply because there was no need for it.
		And we may well be going through what is normal as far as evolutionary processes have occurred and just gaining these perceptive abilities that are now allowing us to see interactions and activity of a certain dimensional nature we weren't able to perceive before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess what I was asking is at some point do you perceive that there may be a kind of a critical mass of awareness?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I think that's theoretically possible, sure.
		I think it may be necessary if this were going to really encounter and confront and deal with this situation as we have it right now.
		Yes, I think most people we you get the feeling most people are asleep to the subject.
		But if there were, as I see growing in the past several years, numbers of people waking up in different ways, then you begin to think, yes, this could have a critical mass effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would that, do you think, result in socially if somehow we all began to become aware that, oh, yes, not only have we been visited for hundreds of years, we're being visited now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's occurring to many, if not most, people.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And it's not a visit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		It's something quite different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, let me take off down that road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		My best opinion is that it is some form, metaphorically speaking, of farming.
		That we have a source for certain something, qualities or physical materials, our energetic energy patterns.
		I have no idea.
		Although all of those are possible given the data of the abduction report.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hopefully we are not as cows are to human beings.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, hopefully, but realistically speaking, that's not out of the realm of the data possibility.
		That if our cows begin to develop, say, self-consciousness and they begin to perceive their situation more accurately, we would have a big problem on our hands.
		We would certainly have to change our methods of interacting with the cows.
		And when we see the changes that have accelerated in the past few years, 10 years, in this phenomenon, you begin to wonder what's made them change from hundreds of years of fairly static procedures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you think that if that was the scenario, that, if you'll excuse the expression, our creators intended for us to be self-aware or not?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I think it may be one of those ironic accidents.
		And again, I'm theorizing.
		You're talking theory.
		I'm going to talk theory back, but I'm not going to talk any theory that goes greatly against the data as I know it.
		All right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's fair enough.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are at the top of the hour, so hold your response, if you would, please.
		We'll be back to Dr. Carla Turner, who's coming to us from rural Arkansas.
		And we'll talk more about abductions.
		Next, this is Dreamland.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		It's just not fitting.
		The boxes are very limited.
		One thing we have to be committed to is, I think, researching the widest possible body of data instead of being very selective because of personal biases or personal preconceptions about what we're going to consider.
		But the problem is when you put it in the box, you don't have a good fit.
		If what's going on here were known to someone, it would be worth the rest of the world's attention, certainly, to know what the answers might be.
		I don't have any.
		We were talking about theories a while ago.
		Certainly everybody's got a theory.
		I would like to comment on something you did say earlier, though, about perhaps these creatures might have been our creators.
		Yes.
		I think probably if we wanted to examine a variety of evidence types, including some of the more ancient records, we might find that they could be considered more correctly perhaps interloping farmers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interloping farmers.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, the way that we as a species, the human species, has taken over wild animals time and again and domesticated them and genetically altered them for our benefit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		While we certainly did not create cows, we could be considered their farmers, couldn't we?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And we've genetically manipulated them through the centuries through selective breeding programs in the beginning and then through more laboratory type methods in the recent years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We use cows for food.
		While you don't rule that out with regard to how the aliens may be using us, what is your best guess, based on your research, as to what they're doing with us?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're doing a variety of things with us, and this is what makes it hard, Art.
		We know they're taking certain kinds of substances from us.
		They take sperm, they take ova, they may well be taking fetuses if we can trust the perceptions of the people who've reported this.
		They take body fluids, they add body fluid, add fluids to our system.
		They take flesh samples, hair samples.
		They take energy.
		In fact, one of the more common things that I began to run into when I was making connections with many other cases of abduction reports was a phenomenon that some people call being vacuumed, where you are in a totally normal physical energy state, and then as if a switch were thrown and a vacuum sucks all your energy out, you totally are without any energy.
		It's more than exhaustion.
		When it's happened to me, I couldn't even move my lips to talk.
		And it took 15, 20 minutes of recovery time to regain energy.
		So they certainly are taking energy in some way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've talked to a lot of people who call up who think they have been abducted or tampered with in some way.
		And they have awakened in the middle of the night to a paralyzed state.
		Is that a common report?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		It's a common report.
		They either wake up paralyzed or become that way soon after perceiving entities or a light in the room.
		Yes.
		But if it were all just happening in the bedroom, I think we'd have a very different phenomenon.
		You know, of course, from the other calls you've gotten that it happens to groups of people at the same time.
		It happens in the middle of the day, on the highway, in town, at parties.
		So we're not dealing with something that's easily explainable as a night phenomenon, but that does seem to be a very, very common occurrence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, your view is, what, that there's a genetic reason, perhaps, for all of this experimentation?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I think part of it may be, given the kinds of reports we have, that they are certainly doing something that's quite physical in both its aim and its procedures, that this is not a spiritual phenomenon primarily as some people would very much like it to be.
		The purpose of a spiritual phenomenon is not being served by a number of procedures that are reported over and over again in the abduction scenario.
		These are very physical concerns, brain operations, blood alterations, implants, for instance, which would really have nothing to do with a spiritual phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		What is the state of the research into these implants?
		I know that we have actually some physical samples of implants.
		What is the best available evidence?
		Do you know?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, very little, to tell you the truth.
		The best available evidence I've heard recently has concerned reports of analysis into a number of potential or alleged implant objects, but so far nothing has turned up that is easily explained.
		Some are completely terrestrial materials, but that still doesn't explain who made them or for what purpose.
		Others appear to be just anomalous in the sense that they can say what it isn't, but they can't really say what it is, nor in fact that it's extraterrestrial in origin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, is it necessarily extraterrestrial in origin?
		And I go back to my visit last week with Dr. Mack from Harvard.
		He said that, look, a lot of these implants that have been analyzed have turned out to be very terrestrial in terms of the materials in them.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Mack is not blind to the possibility that these creatures, whatever they are, may come from either another time or another dimension, but in fact, from this Earth, on some plane, from this very Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if that would be true, it would explain the materials being common to this Earth.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, if they had been interacting with our species for a long, long time, they would know very well the materials on this plane, or this Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, they would use them.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Wherever they come from, if they came from another planet, if they came from another dimension, if they came from a dimension parallel to ours on this planet, those are all possibilities because we don't have any answers.
		And they certainly behave as if they dimensional hop in a sense.
		They manipulate dimension.
		They manipulate time, there's no doubt about that.
		And their physical activities, as we've observed them, show they manipulate spatially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your book, Taken, you go into eight separate cases.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently all women.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this time around, I focused on eight different women's cases.
		I thought it gave, one of the points of doing this project was to give an adequate sampling of in-depth reports so that correlations and comparisons could be made.
		And I thought it was one more factor that was part of the correlation process that these cases all happened to be women.
		The book I'm working on now that should be available by December concerns one man's case.
		So I don't just work with women.
		I'm not going to leave that impression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		By the way, there are very few by number women who are UFO investigators or investigators in your field.
		Most of the people investigating in this field seem to be men.
		Have you noticed that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Of course, yes.
		And it's not been easy to be one of the few women in this field, I'll have to say that, although some people have made very good efforts toward me.
		But still, I think not only do I have that strike, perhaps, against me considering the numbers of women who aren't in this field, but also I have a strike in some people's eyes against me because I have had personal experiences that in some people's thinking is a contamination that means I shouldn't research.
		And I guess I could see their point of view, but I think on the other hand it gives me additional advantage in researching.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you really had the experience, and I went 48 years of my life, Dr. Turner, without seeing a UFO and then finally saw one almost a year ago, it compels you, and so I can easily understand why you would dive into this research.
		It's not easy.
		What have your colleagues said?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Academic colleagues?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Very little.
		In confidence, several have talked about personal sighting experiences, but never publicly.
		I left the area where I was teaching in 1991 was the last semester I taught in the spring, and I moved to another state, so I really haven't been in contact with them since then.
		What they may think about it now, I can't tell you.
		However, they are among the rest of the population in this abduction statistic field that there are people at the university level who have experiences, just like there are, in one case, probably the most extreme as far as deprivation I know, a case in the Ozark Mountains of a family so remote and so without access to what we would think of as contaminating material.
		They had no electricity, no television, no really contact, very menial labor, and the woman was totally illiterate and couldn't read.
		And yet her experiences parallel those of the college professors and the doctors and the artists and the housewives who also have this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said there were a number of things or at least a few things that you could nail down as certain about this entire phenomenon.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well there's certain things that I have now to my satisfaction I accept as fact rather than as theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are those?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well some of them include for instance the fact that we don't know there is no evidence it is a fact we do not know where these creatures come from or what in fact their true nature is.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		In other words I have not found any of the theories to explain their origin or their nature to be overwhelmingly proven by the data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try approaching it though from the other angle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you convinced, convinced, doctor, through your research that this is a hidden hand, that there are aliens no matter where they may come from, who are here?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have personally experienced it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		it's a matter of knowledge and experience with me, not even a conjecture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not even a question.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		No, no question.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		What they are, I cannot tell you, and I don't think anyone else can either, but they're not us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as to their purpose, all you're sure of is you don't know.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, on my list of facts, number two on the list is that at least some of these creatures are consummate liars and deceivers.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		This is a fact, there is no doubt, and the evidence goes back to the beginning of the contactee scenario, all the way through reports I've gotten in the last week from cases that are ongoing now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, give me a good example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What makes you believe they are consummate liars?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have made over the years to particular individuals a number of very specific predictions or warnings or scenarios that have never come to pass.
		Sometimes small events that they predict in the beginning of a list of warnings or predictions will occur, which makes the person who's received this list of predictions very take the list at a very credible level and prepare for these other things to happen and then they do not happen.
		Now this goes back to the early 50s as far as reports of interactions and communications from these creatures.
		They also have given a number of contradictory explanations to various abductees for the same procedures, are the same part of the agenda.
		For instance, and as I talk about this in Taken, one woman was shown at one point during some of her encounters a cloned copy of her body.
		It was inert.
		And well this happens in a number of cases.
		Many people have reported seeing inert human bodies, sometimes copies of themselves, sometimes not, just other bodies.
		And one case, Pat, was told that these bodies were for the resurrection.
		Now, throughout Pat's experiences, a religious symbology was employed with her because she had a very strong basic faith.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, is it your view that those who start out with a very strong religious faith attribute their experience to some sort of religious occurrence?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I think they may tend to, and I think that tendency is greatly amplified by the programming of the aliens themselves.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		They'll take on whatever guy's works, or follow whatever procedure really accomplishes their program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me take it from their point of view for a second.
		Why do you think that these beings are not connected to what we think of as traditional religion in some way?
		A lot of religious people will say, well, these are devils or they're angels or they're spirits, and this is not an area we should be even looking into.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, my personal answer would be that they do not behave in the reports we have from abduction accounts anything like, or very seldom anything like any of the reports of spirits and angels in our religious literature that these people use as the basis of their beliefs, for one thing.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		As I've said before, I have never yet found anywhere in the Bible where one of the angels' duties was a rectal probe on a six-year-old child.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		All right, now that's a starting place for questioning that.
		Secondly, the entire range of their procedures with us make that very suspect.
		The physical activities are numerous, and nothing like this seems related to a spiritual agenda if that's what they were pursuing.
		I will agree that they indoctrinate and program us throughout these encounters, if that's going to be effective with us, to take it on a spiritual level.
		For instance, with Pat, when they first abducted her entire family back in 1954, the creatures told her that she said, are you angels?
		And they said, yes, but not as you have been taught.
		But that works with Pat.
		In another case, with Lisa, she was also shown a clone of her body.
		And she was not told anything about a spiritual use for this when the resurrection, when Jesus returns, and we get our new bodies.
		No, she was told instead that this body, well, it was used in a sense to threaten or warn her that if she were not cooperative with the ongoing program of whatever it is they're doing with her, that she could be replaced by this body and no one would ever know the difference.
		Those are not consistent answers.
		i wonder how many of us have been replaced well in the next book that i'm uh getting ready to publish called masquerade of angels we're going to delve into exactly that question because the uh It is the title.
		It is, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what an intriguing title.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What made you pick that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope you'll get a chance to read this story and you'll probably see for yourself.
		It deals with one man's experiences, a psychic, practicing psychic, for more than 20 years, a man named Ted Rice, who began his work in Atlanta and is now in Louisiana, has lived in a number of places, and grew up in, intellectually and spiritually grew up into the spiritualist, metaphysical, what would be the precursor of the New Age movement very early on, very intensely, very actively.
		Dealt with what he thought were spirit guides for a number of years until he had a massive, very intense abduction experience by obviously not spirit creatures aboard a spacecraft along with a number of the neighbors down the street where he lived.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he did a quick reassessment?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		He did begin to look for some explanations.
		Nothing his spirit guides had ever given him had anything to do with this, had ever prepared him or discussed it, whatever.
		So we began a, this has gone on for several years now.
		The investigation into his lifelong series of events is probably more in-depth than any one investigation I've been involved in.
		And we've got a number of signed affidavits attesting to the veracity of the accounts.
		We've done hypnosis with a number of people after their conscious recollections have been recorded.
		The verification of these series of events is extraordinary.
		And among those, we have to deal with the question of cloning and replacement, and in fact, the nature of the human soul and what we may not have understood about it all along.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The nature of the human soul.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Because one of the things, I will not discount, one of the things that's on my list of facts is that These creatures show a very, for me, very disturbing interest in the human soul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very interesting, Doctor.
		I did a series of interviews with a friend of mine whose name is John Lear.
		Do you know that name?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've heard Mr. Lear speak on a couple of occasions back in the 80s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Lear, in latter interviews, and I'm going to do another one, I hope, with him soon, referred to the human body as a vessel for the soul.
		That the aliens regard our bodies as a vessel for the soul.
		Have you heard him say that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I've not heard him say that, but I have heard a number of abductees who have reported being told that and having that lesson stressed to them by the aliens, and I think there is a reason for that.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, one of the things, not only in much of the alien contactee and channel material, but also in the New Age movement in general.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, I've got to hold you there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Stand by.
		We'll be right back.
		is dreamland.
unidentified		From the Kingdom of Nye, you're hearing Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell.
unidentified		Much more than just a talk show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dreamland.
unidentified		And to participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		That's 1-800-618-8255.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it is that.
		This is the Dreamland program.
		All the numbers you just heard, though, are just fine.
		My guest is Dr. Carla Turner.
		And she's written two books, working hard on a third now, the first two, one called Into the Fringe, and the other, Taken Inside the Alien Human Abduction Agenda.
		And frankly, that's what we've been talking a little bit about, is their agenda.
		And we're going to do more of it in just a moment.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Stay right where you are.
		It's not that often that I get a chance to tell you all about a product that is effective.
		If we begin taking phone calls, I promise.
		So if you want to get on the lines, Dr. Turner is going to be available to you in just a moment.
		Dr. Turner.
		Yes, sir.
		I want to finish up on the souls.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'd like to go back to what we were discussing about before the break, if I could, for just a minute.
		Yes.
		You were talking about John Lear saying that the bodies are containers or vessels for the souls as very different things.
		Going back to what we were talking about even earlier, if these interloping farmers had begun genetic manipulations with the species that they found here to bring it up to a more useful level for them, one of the things that they might have tried to do or might have done was to increase the level of intelligence in the species so that it could in fact pretty much tend its own farm.
		If you get my understanding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm afraid I do.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And then this being what they propose to do, the purpose of this, it inevitably having its own reactions thereafter in the species, what might have led up to the transition that we're maybe making to a new level of intelligence, an additional perceptive intelligence.
		And if that were the case and you knew that your cows were waking up in this manner, wouldn't it be one of the things you would want them to very much believe, something you would want to instill in them very deeply, to de-emphasize the value of their physical nature and physical existence?
		Wouldn't you, if this is a product you are using in some way, wouldn't you want it to not have placing, be placing a great emphasis on its physical nature?
		And one of the things that they very often do tell abductees and contactees is that the body is of no importance.
		It is just a container.
		Don't worry about it.
		Free yourself from it.
		They downplay our physical existence very greatly in part of their programming.
		And I think I can see a reason why they might be doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If they regarded us as we might regard cows who are slowly awakening, yes.
		Right.
		It's a very unsettling, disturbing thought, though, for an awful lot of people.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I know it is.
		It's for me, too.
		But when you start looking at the straight data, the real reports, not being censored and not being doctored in any way, you have to consider how do we account for all of this stuff.
		And we see over and over that they take from us, that they manipulate our understanding and screen our understanding of what they're doing with us, and they're doing a great deal of physical work with us, which seems to be also transgenerational.
		We've seen that, an ongoing genetic sort of program, perhaps.
		And if we were waking up to the fact of our being used, our being a resource, certainly they would not want us to be overly attached to our physical existence if they're using it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I do agree.
		All right, let's go to do this.
		Let's go to the audience and begin to take a few calls.
		You've given me a lot to digest.
		On our toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I am in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle.
unidentified		All right.
		Great show tonight.
		Great show.
		I really enjoy listening to the doctor.
		Now, you were saying that there's been reports of bodily fluids being taken.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Is that correct?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
unidentified		Now, what if, say I was abducted 20 years ago, what are the odds of me receiving a phone call from Mars Collect and somebody wanting child support?
unidentified		I mean, what, you know, if I have a son that's 20 years old on some other planet, what are the odds that I might meet him?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's a humorous way to look at it, but I don't think you have to worry about it.
		If you were going to meet him, they'd probably make sure it took place.
		I would like to say, however, that I am not at all convinced they are actually hybridizing and breeding the way that they have very strongly led us to believe.
		I think there may well be something else going on, and that is a cover story in effect.
unidentified		Great.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		So I wouldn't worry about any little babies out there as far as having living, breathing, individual, soul-like existence as we understand it.
		Now, certainly they do take our reproductive material and they're doing something with it.
		The evidence does indicate, in some ways, that they may well be using all that material to grow their little gray worker machines.
		Wow.
		Instead of making hybrid children as the point of their work, it may be a resource for their slave system, their machine system, their industrial equivalent, whatever you'd like to call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, Doctor, the grays, as we call them, you may regard as sort of worker bees?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly have, in my physical encounters with them, had a very strong and deep and clear impression that they were not soul-bearing creatures.
		People have reported over and over again that they don't seem alive, there's no emotion, there's no soul energy.
		And a number of these worker sorts that come in and do sort of routine procedures.
		Yes.
		And they are remarkably fetal.
		They're remarkably humanoid.
		They may be a genetically manipulated version Of the fetus grown and developed in certain ways as a dedicated program machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think, Doctor, this is way out in the speculative area, but do you think that we were supposed to become aware, or do you think that this growing awareness that we appear to have is an unexpected byproduct?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I think that it's likely it could be an unexpected byproduct.
		It may well be something that we would naturally have evolved to on our own without genetic intrusions at a much later time.
		It may be that there are other forces than human and alien who are also employed in the universe who may be helping in some way to wake us up.
		There's a lot of possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
unidentified		This is Jim in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jim.
unidentified		Dr. Turner, thanks for doing the show.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're awesome.
unidentified		Art, first of all, I had a question for you.
		I just was curious.
		I listened to the last couple of shows you've done last couple weeks, and you always seem to hint at a you always seem to ask your guests about the creator.
		What is your personal theory as to the creator bit?
		And as for your guest, Dr. Turner, what exactly are we talking about as far as the numbers go for this kind of phenomenon?
		And is it happening worldwide?
		I mean, outside of the country?
		And is there research being done in other countries?
		And also, I had a couple of theories that I wanted to run by.
		The implant thing, being of organic materials that aren't otherworldly, wouldn't that, isn't the best, I mean, I buy into the theory that that's just simply so that they're not detected.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I think that it works that way very often, yeah.
unidentified		Okay, and secondly, I was reading Dr. Jacobs' book, Secret Life, and I was trying to figure out if I was being abducted repeatedly and I had to put a stop to it.
		I mean, I was trying to think of ways that I would try to prevent this abduction experience from reoccurring.
		And I know that they don't seem to like, I mean, these beings, they don't seem to care for video cameras being around.
		They want to remain secret.
		Could you, like, perhaps handcuff yourself to your bed or something like that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		We've had a number of people try, I mean, people try a number of different ways to protect themselves at night.
		And of course, you've heard the story of the person who did use a video camera set up toward the bed.
		And when on nights nothing happened, it showed absolutely no activity.
		And then one night, looking at the tape from that night, what it showed was the person getting up out of bed, going over to the wall, and unplugging the video machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about getting the help of a third person, literally handcuffing yourself to the bed?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I have one person right now has reached that point where they have tried tying themselves to her husband or to the bed, and it doesn't seem to make any difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He asked a couple of other questions about the numbers and whether it's a worldwide phenomenon.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, Dave Jacobs, I know, probably reported, if you've heard him on interviews or at presentations he's given on the Roper poll a couple of years ago that based on their statistics, estimated that perhaps one in 40 Americans had reported details that would match up with this scenario.
		Jacobs has said in public and in private both that those numbers were actually much higher than that on the original poll statistics and that frankly they watered them down because they didn't think people would believe them.
		So we're talking about higher potential numbers than 1 in 40, perhaps 1 in 20 or 1 in 10.
		We don't really know.
		Because as we find out, when people do wake up and become aware of it, it's been going on throughout their lives without them being aware.
		How many other people are not aware yet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of people not aware, Doctor.
		And one phenomenon I've noticed from doing this kind of program is of many of those who are not aware, when they're confronted with the kind of information you've been giving tonight, they respond with outright anger.
		I mean they flat get angry.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And that's a fear reaction.
		Anyone who has a very, very strong reaction, either obsessively or in angry and denying terms, one wonders what motivation, because that is not a typical, normal, unaffected reaction.
		And I can understand it.
		I don't want this to be true either.
		And I certainly have not been, I don't know that I would have ever chosen to be aware of it, to tell you the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On our toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello.
		How are you?
		I'm Kimeon, calling from Portland, KEX.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		Hello.
		I just want to make a few calls.
		Great show tonight.
		Or a few comments.
		I feel that there are answers to these questions.
		Each weekend on Dreamland, we keep hearing, we don't have the answers, we don't have the answers.
		I had an experience in 1986, so similar to Dr. Turner's, I too in Las Vegas saw a craft in the middle of a busy intersection with my husband at that time, and no one else saw it.
		And I've often wondered if that's a phenomenon that other people have experienced.
		My life changed after that.
		I did much, much research, and a lot of my research has led me to books that involve people channeling information from beings through telepathy.
		Through telepathy, the same way that these abductors communicate through the abductees.
		I know a lot of people are skeptical when we mention channeling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm one of them.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm the other one because there is no possible way to verify anything that they give us, much less the source of the channeled material.
		I'm just a very skeptical person, I hope, by nature and by training both.
		If there is no way to confirm something, then it is certainly not an idea or a piece of information upon which I'm going to base any serious response.
unidentified		I understand.
		So many of us want to find this information through the regular, concrete way that we've done everything.
		And I really liked last week's show because I think we're really beginning to get it out there that we may have to go through different avenues.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		We may have to look through ways we're not used to.
unidentified		We may not have things that are concrete.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right, I think we are being pushed to that.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		Of course we are.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That's what we were talking about with perhaps the transition to a species with more perceptive abilities.
		Because we have to learn to see what is happening to us, to perceive its reality, before we can ever respond and decide what response is correct.
		It may well be that our response will be defensive.
		It may well be it's a response of accommodation.
		But we cannot tell from channel material that is unverifiable which way we should be preparing.
unidentified		Let me ask this.
		Many abductions have occurred, and I do believe that they are occurring, and I do believe there's a reason for this new awareness and this sudden awareness of these abductions.
		And they always say that the way that the abductors communicate is through telepathy.
		So if in fact this is occurring, so many people, Art has never had an abduction memory.
		I don't have an abduction memory, and yet I believe it's true.
		I believe it when someone says, I was there, I heard them communicate with me through telepathy.
		I have very, very close friends and myself.
		I have telepathic abilities, but I can't prove it.
		Just like the people who are on board can't prove they've been abducted.
		We have to start taking another viewpoint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I do agree, but Dr. Turner, I've got to admit, I'm one of the ones not very comfortable with the way you're laying it out.
		I don't know why.
		It's just, it kind of puts me on edge.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, I wish I could give you a beautiful picture.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I just don't have one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I'm not asking you to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just saying that my reaction to it, and I deal with this material all the time, my reaction is kind of an uncomfortable one.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		In what sense?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess in the way you're describing what you think their intentions toward us may be.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		If you're uncomfortable in that it doesn't fit what you know, or it's uncomfortable because it would imply something you wouldn't like.
		I don't understand.
		That's what I was asking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I guess it would imply something that I wouldn't like, that I'm just not comfortable with, that we are to them perhaps as cows are to us.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I'm not comfortable with it either, but reality is going to be what it is, whether we're comfortable or not.
		That's what we're trying to figure out.
		And then getting past the point of being uncomfortable or afraid or angry and all the other emotions abductees go through and people who come to understand this is true whether they've had it happen to them or not that they're aware of, you've got to get past that to the next stage.
		That's stage one.
		Stage two is now what do we do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'll bite.
		I like that.
		What do we do?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		We haven't all picked up enough yet to perceive it correctly.
		We are perceiving bits and pieces still, and we are so highly manipulated by these beings that the nature of it is deceptive and elusive, illusionary.
		And until we can see past that and learn techniques for penetrating that, we're not going to know how to respond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Jamie in Northeast Oregon listening to OK Gold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And my question tonight, well, basically, two things.
		The first one is in the evolutionary topic earlier tonight.
		Do you think that possibly, rather than evolutionary, that the awareness of this phenomenon is due to our technology now being so much more advanced than it has been in history, adding acceptance to the idea that we're not alone?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I wouldn't think it would be our technology.
		What do you think?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I certainly don't.
		I think, for instance, what I see is in individual responses to the phenomenon, I see people waking up to some of the illusions while they're still in the experience.
		They're not doing it through technology.
		This is a one-at-a-time thing that I'm seeing happen.
		And yet it has an effect, a ripple effect, through society's thinking and perceptions and acceptances.
		I don't think it's because our technology has perceived new things, but it has shown us at least that we're able, through other ways than the primitive five senses we know, to make perceptions.
		Now, if we suddenly develop, for instance, the visual ability to see the ultraviolet and the infrared spectrum with our own eyes.
		You know, that would be a change.
		That would be a transitional, a new phase, or a new level of our perceptive ability.
		That's what I'm talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Back to the phone.
		So a lot of people want to talk to you on the wildcard line.
		You're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Reading, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Dr. Turner, yes, I have had an experience like when your husband said that he was driving in the car with his parents or something?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		With his father.
unidentified		Yeah, and I don't know how to describe it, but I've had a really similar experience right down to the scar on the back of my leg.
unidentified		And I was wondering, aside from insatiable curiosity, is there any altruistic reasons you can give me for pursuing something like this and what I should do?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Reasons for pursuing the investigation of your own possible experiences?
		Yeah.
		Oh, right now, to be brutally honest, I don't really recommend anyone pursue them.
unidentified		Oh, God.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't.
		If they're giving you problems, if you're having emotional problems or relationship problems or physical stress symptoms because of repressed memories trying to surface, that's another thing.
		You may not have much of a choice except to go ahead and dive into it.
		But if it's just curiosity and at this stage, knowing right now that two things.
		One, we don't know what to do about it at this stage.
		So it's not like I can say, yes, once you find out, then you can go do this and change the situation.
		You can't do that.
		At this stage, we can't do that.
		The second thing is that if we are truly going through this transitional process and maybe coming to awarenesses, it will evolve in its own inevitability with you.
		And it won't be a choice of trying to find out.
		It will be an awareness of because you're taking in new perceptive information.
unidentified		Yeah.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		But if you're not being pushed, if you're not being stressed, I don't see what purpose will serve by doing this.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		You will change your life so dramatically with this knowledge.
unidentified		At least a lot better.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And you can never forget it once you have uncovered it.
		So if you're not prepared for a real alteration in your life, I don't see why you would want to pursue it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		So in Your view, unless there are psychological reasons, it could be more damaging to pursue it than to just leave it alone.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I won't say damaging, but I think frustrating as far as being, she said, now if I delve into it, give me reasons why I should know what I can do.
		We don't know what we can do yet.
		That's why it would be very frustrating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm remembering close encounters of the third kind when he began to make mounds of potatoes and became obsessed with it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Then you really don't have a choice.
		That's what I was telling her.
		If it reaches a point where something internal pushes her hard enough, she will make a breakthrough in some way, whether it's spontaneously or by feeling compelled to seek out an investigator or a hypnotist or whatever to try to get more information.
		Yeah, then that will happen because she has to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Dr. Turner, stand by.
		We'll come back to you.
		Break time.
		You're listening to Dreamland, kind of a disturbing one on the CBC radio network.
		Dr. Turner.
		Hi.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people want to talk to you, Dr. Turner, so I guess we better stay with the telephones.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To them we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
unidentified		Yes, this is Dee from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dee.
unidentified		I wanted to make a comment in regards to some experiences that I have had, and I have only remembered them as greens.
		But I know that they fit in too well with some other categories.
		Right.
		As far as the little gray men, I do agree with you that they are slaves in my experiences that I have had with them.
		But the people that rule over them are almost military.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there seems to be a lot of getting down to business with their procedures.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And from my experiences, it has almost been the perception that I hold some kind of rank there and I am, I guess, have a higher status than others.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I will tell you that there have been a number of abductees who have been told at some point in their experiences or made to believe that they too are working in some conjunction with the aliens and are special and have a higher rank.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		So that is not the first I've heard of that.
unidentified		And I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with being shown a laser weapons system that they have been giving the chemical formula for the gas.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I would have to see more specifically what you're talking about before I would know if there were any real correlations with it.
		But people are told about technology, are told about certain kinds of physics, mathematics are discussed, devices are described and explained.
		This too is part of the program.
		In fact, one of the most extraordinary things I think I remember hearing, not in a case I investigated, but that someone else had, involving three women abducted in the New Mexico area, taken to what they all three recalled as an underground facility of some sort where both non-human and human personnel were employed.
		And one of them, saying that she put on a certain type of outfit and went to a machine, I guess an equivalent of a computer console type setup, said she punched in her code and then began working.
		One of the other women, however, went through the typical on-the-table examination.
unidentified		So it's, you know, we don't know what happened.
unidentified		But the examination would possibly lead to an employment of some type.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was just an extraordinarily strange situation of three women abducted, two were examined, and one went to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you, ma'am.
		Dr. Turner, stay good and close to your telephone for us.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Again, on the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello, there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, I'm Carla from Northern California Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Oh, this is Sparky.
		Your guest there has lots of write-on ideas and researching.
		Dr. Turner, it is?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		It's probably been found out with all your research that Earth has a history of being sort of spiritually retarded.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I can't say that that's been the finding of my research, no.
unidentified		Well, with what I hear that, well, you're kind of getting the idea.
		I haven't been able to listen to the radio, so I'm not really, it don't really come into you, okay?
		So I'm lost that we're...
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, perhaps I misrepresented it.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		For our capabilities, for our natural capabilities, I think we are a fairly spiritual species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, circling back, we were not necessarily, in your view, meant to begin this awakening, to, in other words, realize what's going on with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That may be sort of a byproduct.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		It could be an unhappy result of something unforeseen from the manipulations they have been doing with us all along.
		Or again, it may simply be part of a natural process.
		Whatever stage we're at after their manipulations, we still continue to change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Bebby from St. Louis.
unidentified		And I had a question about if they are interloping farmers, then how do you explain the purpose for aliens showing women their hybrid babies and telling them to hold the child?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		There's a number of possibilities that could explain it.
		One female who had gone through this process was very clear when it was over about her assessment of why they were doing it.
		She felt it had very little at all to do with the actual well-being of the child, that it was more of an experiment or test type situation to elicit certain emotional responses from her for whatever purpose that they needed them or wanted to study them.
		She felt that it had very little to do with the baby.
		The responses of people to these so-called hybrid infants that they're shown and told belong to them in some way ranges from instant love and bonding to repulsion to bewilderment, to rejection.
		There's not an overwhelming sense across the board that these are really their children.
		There's that scenario being presented for them, but whether it's an accurate one or not, we don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's no sense of what they're trying to achieve with that kind of union.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can see a number of reasons they might want to, but again, we're theorizing to bond us in a certain subordinate position, to convince us on some level that this is a benevolent interference, to elicit more cooperation from us.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		If you're bonded by sharing offspring, that's a pretty close bond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		You're not always in equal relationships in that bond, however.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Certainly there would be reasons for that kind of approach in the setup from their point of view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		This is Jodi, K-O-H-Reno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jodi.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Doctor.
		Why is it, the last caller hit on it a little.
		Why is it that it's only the people reporting about the hybrid that you seem to doubt?
		And also, I'd like to know who is it that you think the Bible is referring to when it speaks of demons and angels?
unidentified		Thank you.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Great questions.
		I appreciate it.
		First off, I don't mean to imply that I doubt that part of the abductee story.
		I do not.
		I know for us, you know, very deeply that these people are telling the honest truth.
		And it's a matter of whether what they saw and thought they experienced is the actuality or if it is something else.
		One of the things I talk about in TAKEN and we'll be discussing in more detail in A Masquerade of Angels is a capability these creatures have called virtual, what I call virtual reality.
		I borrow the term, I admit that.
		Where scenarios are created for a particular targeted person that feel to all the senses as if it is actually occurring when in fact it is not.
		And we've had a couple of cases where it has been witnessed by people outside this targeted person's sphere of activity who have watched, in fact I talk about this in the first chapter of Taken, two people unaffected watching a third person going through an experience that to her was absolutely real and she was awake while it was happening and they were in the room with her, but what she was convinced happened was not perceivable to the people unaffected by the energy field that had coalesced around her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, demons and angels.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Demons and angels.
		I don't know what demons and angels meant to the people who wrote about them originally.
		I'm not in their mindset or in their frame of reference to know what they specifically meant by it themselves.
		I just know we give it a lot of different interpretations now.
		These creatures have capabilities that seem supernatural to us, but they would not perhaps seem that way if we had equivalent technology or if we had equivalent perceptive capabilities.
		I don't know if that's why we've always put these creatures perhaps on a supernatural plane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, she said, what do you think the Bible was talking about when it mentions demons?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		It could have been talking about creatures like this in some instances, in some cases.
		I don't really know.
		I think that makes sense given some other things that are recorded not only in the Bible, but in other world religious documents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air.
		Good evening.
		Good evening.
unidentified		This is Fritz from Phoenix Calling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Fritz.
unidentified		Dr. Tornell, when would the medical profession that does abductive research, like yourself and many, many other doctors out there, psychiatrists, realize that the abduction scenario must be turned around in a positive direction?
		You can't stop it.
		You know it's going to continue.
		Get the fear out of the program.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I agree with you entirely.
		There are two things going on in the abduction field right now as far as I can tell.
		And one is abductee therapy, which is the major activity going on in the field, which is exactly what you say, helping people who need the help learn better how to cope with the scenario that they cannot change.
		That's therapy.
		I agree.
		I don't do therapy.
		I'm doing research.
		That's a totally different thing with a different goal and a different approach.
		But certainly, yes, you have to learn to cope.
		However, I would point this out also.
		It is the minority, as far as I can tell, of abductees who actually need medically trained mental health professionals to assist them in coping.
		Most of us have had this since our early childhood.
		We have already found coping mechanisms or we wouldn't have reached adulthood, same with.
		It is the minority or it is at very temporary times that people go through so much stress or so much discomfort that they need professional help.
		For the most part, we cope very well, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's funny.
		I'm trying to analyze my own feelings, Dr. Turner, about why this scenario, I guess the way you've laid it out, disturbs me so.
		And he was talking about fear.
		I guess a little bit of this, to me, if this is true, I feel a little bit of that fear.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		I have felt it myself, and I don't know anyone involved in this, even if they think it's the most wonderful thing that happened, has not felt some fear at some point.
		All I can say is that fear does you no good.
		You have to get it out of your system the sooner the better.
		Fear impedes you from having the ability to assess things in a rational manner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That it does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That it does, just as anger will also accomplish that once.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		However, anger is a positively motivating emotion compared to fear.
		If you have to put an intense emotion into one or the other, I suggest anger.
		It helps you focus.
		It does help even your logic focusing unless you're just in a rage.
		Whereas fear incapacitates your ability to react rationally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does, it's true.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
		No, you're not.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Hi.
unidentified		Radio Free America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Dr. Turner, are you familiar with the term Nephilim?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		No, yes, I am in the works of Stitchin and in some references to possible ancient or to ancient.
unidentified		It's only in the Bible twice, in Genesis and in Numbers.
		And it refers to a race that was on the earth before the flood and then after the flood.
		And a lot of biblical scholars believe that angels at the time, before the flood of Noah, had intercourse with women.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I'm familiar with that scenario.
unidentified		And what is your belief that this is what could be happening?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be a partially or somewhat or a totally correct account of things that occurred.
		I'm not ruling that out.
		The level of its accuracy is something that's open to debate, I certainly think.
		Perhaps that's a metaphorical way of accounting for a species coming in with the capability to genetically alter us so that we become a different race and we become in a metaphorical sense their offspring.
		I can see that as a possibility as much as it being a literal story or as much as it being a bewildered writer's attempt to, or group's attempt to account for a phenomenon they couldn't otherwise explain.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Turner, who would you say is doing research that you most particularly admire right now of all the people in the field?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		In abduction work?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the field generally, but since you're working with abductions, that would be a good area.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly have a great deal of admiration for the woman who opened your program.
		I think Linda Howe is doing absolutely as accurate a work as one could ask.
		And certainly she's branched out from cattle mutilations to dealing with many other phases, including the abduction phenomena.
		I find we have a great deal of our own opinions about this based on what we've seen and dealt with, very much along the same line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the cattle mutilations are absolutely related?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
		I just don't understand the exact nature of the relationship.
		I really don't.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi, this is John, KBI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, John.
unidentified		Question.
		I want to believe in what's going on, but I have one really kind of nagging question.
		I live in a housing development, okay?
		What if the guy next to me is being abducted and I'm not?
		Why don't I see things external to my house?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		You could be turned off while these things are happening.
		For one thing, that would be the simplest explanation.
		People are turned off in the same bed with an abductee, much less next door.
		If it's necessary for you not to see it, you won't see it.
unidentified		So this could happen on a citywide scale?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		It happens in the heart of cities.
		It happens in small towns.
		It happens on the roads.
		It happens in public facilities.
unidentified		And there was a lady that called earlier who said that she was in Las Vegas and only her and her husband saw a UFO in an intersection.
unidentified		Can that happen?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, exactly.
		Of course it happens.
		It happens over and over again.
		That's what I was saying, that there are at least two types of sightings reports.
		One is a random where anyone in the vicinity by accident can observe it, and the other is where it's targeted and only the selected person or group can see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's ask this, Doctor.
		What about any specific numbers?
		Are there more men than women abducted or women than men?
		Are any areas more likely than others?
		Is there anything you can pin down as you start to look at all these reports?
		Not a thing.
		No more abductions in this country than in France.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I would not think so.
		There is the research going on in various areas in Europe very intensely and seriously, if quietly and sometimes not so quietly.
		There is research going on in China, in Russia, in the former Soviet Union.
		There's research going on intensely in Japan.
		There's ongoing research in South America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would think the cultural differences would make a great deal of difference in how many are reported.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's where the difference come in on the question of men and women both.
		People who have run statistics on their own cases like Jacobs and Hopkins and others, I think find a fairly even split between the sexes, fairly even.
		We find it in all ages, from cases like in my husband's case of 11 months old or even younger up to people becoming aware of it for the first time in their 60s and then finding out it had been there all along.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to ask about children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A number of researchers concentrate on children because they feel the possibility of coming up with evidence that is believable might be greater working with very young children who haven't been exposed to programs like this, for example.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're being exposed to them from a very early age.
		They're being exposed to programming by the abductors, not by the media.
		Programming begins, I think, immediately with these recurrent abduction patterns.
		So yes, they're getting programmed just not from us.
		Which brings me back to one of the things on my list of facts.
		And this is fact number three, during encounters, the human's perceptions are controlled, and so are the conscious memories in a number of ways.
		Also controlled are the human's perception of pain, the lack thereof, feelings of physical, sometimes sexual pleasure, emotional responses.
		We know from the data of the reports over and over again, these are controlled, not just monitored, but manipulated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dr. Turner, stand by.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We've got one more segment to go.
		It's Sunday evening, and so, of course, this is Dreamland.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		stay right where you are.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		This is a pre-recorded, previously broadcast program.
unidentified		This is a pre-recorded, previously broadcast program.
		Call Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nine.
		Toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or use the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. on the CBC for Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, it's not.
		It's Dreamland, but the numbers are good.
		Good evening, everybody.
		My guest is Dr. Carla Turner.
		And the subject, of course, is abductions.
		And Dr. Turner, I'd like to ask you, what about, we haven't touched on this yet, what about the supposed great government cover-up?
		Is it your view that our government knows what's going on?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		It's my experience that there are government agencies of some sort involved in gathering information about this phenomenon as far as the abductions are concerned.
		I can at least tell you that from first-hand experience.
		And I think the research of people in other aspects of this field have pretty much confirmed through a number of methods and means that there is government knowledge of something going on and some extent of involvement in studying it.
		A number of cases that I'm personally acquainted with and have investigated in some instances have had evidence and memory of, as well as other kinds of evidence of, interrogations by apparently human military personnel of some sort about this subject, normally in an abductee type situation.
		Normally when they are compelled to go to a certain place to meet and be taken by these personnel and then to be questioned in an altered state of some sort before being returned.
		Sometimes they're threatened, sometimes they're not, but the subject of the questioning is what we are experiencing in these encounters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Back to the phones.
		And on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Yeah, so I'm calling from Southern Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I know a lot about the subject of UFOs, and I know quite a bit.
		I can tell you this.
		I think the only way that we'll be able to find out about what is really going on is we change our concept as regards the world of our environment.
		You know, a fundamental change in the way we see things.
		And I also wanted to add that I'm sure your guest probably knows about this, that certain mushrooms that contain tryptamines and psilocybins can also create, I don't know if you call it a, I guess you would call it a hallucination.
		The same sort of that UFOs produce.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some sort of altered state, Doctor?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That may be true.
		I know that there are altered perceptions from certain hallucinogens, yes.
		However, in abduction phenomena, we have evidence that is more than simply what a person thinks they saw or maybe hallucinated.
		We have external types of evidence, after effects from these events that are very physical and external to the person.
		So we have evidence that at least in some cases, these are physical phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
		Good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Matt and Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Matt.
unidentified		Dr. Turner, we talked about it just briefly.
unidentified		I wanted to know what you found out in your research about underground bases, what takes place in these places if they do exist.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		If they do exist, if the reports are of a reality rather than of a staged or illusory scenario of some sort, and that's always a possibility without further external confirmation either way.
		I take that as a given.
		But the reports themselves, whatever their nature, talk about various kinds of activities in apparently underground facilities.
		Often they have both human personnel, either scientific or military, or both, and then non-human creatures of various kinds in conjunction there with them.
		Sometimes these seem to be more or less military type stations or bases.
		Some are reported to be research type facilities, and others are reported to be what the people sort of refer to as processing plants in which very horrific scenarios are reported involving mutilations of humans.
		And this is something that goes into the more lurid side of the material.
		But nonetheless, it comes from a number of different cases and reports, not just the few that people may know about.
		And it often has come from people who are what I call UFO virgins who really have had little or no exposure to this material and certainly wouldn't know who John Lear was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Dr. John Mack last week and others who've been on this program have said that there's a strong message that comes from the aliens or whoever they are about ecology, about our ecosystem.
		What do you know about that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That's accurate.
		Many people are given messages or information about upcoming destruction or crisis situations on the planet.
		Some are shown scenarios as holographic future events of great physical destruction or other kinds of chaotic situations.
		Yes, that is reinforced with these scenarios, these visions and scenarios, very often.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What about sending a message to the aliens?
		Does that sound crazy to you?
		In other words, if you've got somebody who's repeatedly being abducted, what about the possibility of sending a message with them?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		To the aliens?
		Well, if one were to, if we assume that the interaction is designed on the aliens' part for them to try to elicit certain information from us, they're totally in control of the situation, first off.
		They're after certain things, certain procedures or certain exchanges of information, if you will.
		You're not there as a voluntary cooperating party who has any input into what's going to go on.
		They control what happens.
		So you can't go in with a message from someone and expect them to pay any attention to it.
		It just doesn't seem to have happened.
		One researcher down in Houston, Daryl Sims, has been working with a rather intriguing idea, though, of implanting post-hypnotic suggestions in people whose cases are currently intense that are set to go off at a subconscious level the next time the person is abducted so that they will do something extraordinary to try to break the scenario up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm glad somebody's working on that.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Carla Turner.
		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from Eastern Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And my question is, these people, these abductees, do they ever report being able to feel these beings?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Do they have a physical body that you can touch and feel?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		In many cases.
		Now, that varies.
		There are some reports and some scenarios, and I myself have had one like this, where the beings have been with me and we've had telepathic communication, but they appeared physically almost translucent.
		I could almost see through them, and this has been reported a number of other times.
		At other times, they physically are quite there and they touch you physically and they can do things to you physically, at least physical marks.
		Yes, they have felt texture.
		My husband, for instance, described in his initial encounter at 11 months, when the creature, the smaller creature that had come to fetch him from the car, held him to carry him.
		He was only 11 months old, carried him to the craft to transport him to the larger one.
		He could feel the texture and the solidity of the being that was holding him.
		When he was aboard the larger craft and a different type of creature was with him examining him closely, he even reached up and recalled touching inside the creature's mouth.
		This was not one of the little greys with the non-functional mouth.
		It had a mouth of a certain sort that has also been reported before and had an interior material that he said felt almost spongy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, how odd.
		All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Yeah, I had a comment based on an earlier caller's question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And that was in regards to the angels part.
		I'd done a little bit of research myself, and the references I've gotten biblically has been like they've been referred to as stars, lightning flashes, storm systems, beings, and whatnot.
		So it's kind of like anything, well, and by the literal definition of the term, it's messenger.
		So an angel or a demon is if someone perceives that they're getting some message from something or somebody, based on their own perspective, if they have a positive or a negative reaction to it, that will become an angel or a demon.
		If you remember, I can remember a couple instances, but nothing specific, but it was like they telepathically communicated to whoever they were speaking to, and one of the first comments that was communicated was fear not, type of a thing, like don't stress out over the situation and just kind of go with whatever's happening.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And that's one of the very most common initial communications during an abduction, especially the bedroom encounters, is the creature communicate, do not be afraid.
unidentified		And another thing that you were saying about how people, you can be in an area and some people will see something and other people won't.
		Right.
		There was a phenomenon I heard of and related to, what was it called, geophysics or geophysical warfare.
		It was actually a whole scenario that was researched by the government.
		But they had found out there was a natural phenomenon in the south of Germany.
		In the late summertime, there was a type of field that kind of inhabited an entire valley, and the whole valley kind of became lethargic and lazy.
		And it wasn't exactly, you know, they would try to do things or something, but they just kind of became listless and kind of relaxed and couldn't really motivate themselves.
		So like there's natural phenomena seeming to go on without any particular cause.
		But if someone has kind of researched this type of thing, they might be able to manipulate it down to a level where, you know, they can just kind of tune into a certain frequency.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it also may be one of the functions of the implant.
		Some people, well, we don't know what they are, so people hypothesize.
		And some think they're monitoring and tracking devices.
		Others think that they are devices to monitor some bodily system or function.
		We have some evidence also that they are used to control in a number of ways the person in whom you're implanted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, we have one last break.
		Hold on just a moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is Dr. Carla Turner.
		This is Dreamland.
		Do you remember the time when you...
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been quite a program.
		You pull no punches, and if information about this subject is negative, I've noticed you're not hesitant to present it.
		Do you think a lot of researchers hesitate to do that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
		I think that even admittedly they do.
		For one thing, there are some people whose concerns also include getting as much general acceptance by the mainstream scientific, medical, educational communities as they can, and you cannot hit them with this full force, with all of the raw data they feel.
		They try to make it more palatable so that they can bring the person or the group into this more gently, more slowly, where it becomes more acceptable, and they can learn to at least open up and think about these subjects.
		I can understand that.
		Also, it is a frightening situation sometimes if what we see is taken at face value.
		The trouble is right now we just don't know if it should be taken at face value.
		With virtual reality capabilities, any number of things can be presented for our pseudo-experience that are not actually there.
		So we're dealing still on a very primitive level with what in this is real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I ask this of a number of researchers, and I will ask you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Given a choice, if you were about to be abducted, doctor, and you had the opportunity to do it, would you run like hell or would you sort of lay back and just experience what was about to happen to you.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		If I had a choice to experience it or not, that's right.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, I will say no until I have more understanding of what this is involving, of what the purpose is, what my part in it is, and what it's going to be ultimately used for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
unidentified		Good evening.
		Hi, Art.
		This is Jim Manchiko.
		Wilson to KPE.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		I had an off-the-wall question.
		Has the guest ever looked into whether the abductions are with people that are healthy genetically, like have no health problems in their family and so forth?
		Or does it matter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about that, doctor?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't seem to really matter.
		It seems to pretty much a cross-section the way most of the general population runs.
		People with health problems, people who are inordinately healthy, people who develop health problems afterwards, people who are cured of health problems afterwards, people with handicaps, people with mental disabilities.
		It doesn't seem to matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have there been records of cures after abductions?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly.
		Yes.
		Of different kinds of either illnesses or chronic conditions or diseases.
		But as often as there have been cures, there have been reports of physical harm or after effects on the person after the abduction.
		Sometimes very serious, sometimes not so serious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, the problem for any scientist is this whole damn thing is so random.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's so random.
		You keep trying to put your finger on something.
		Well, they're more from here or more of this type or they're looking for this or they're looking for that.
		But it seems to be utterly random.
		How frustrating.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		And even more frustrating when we count on certain things that we take for granted in everything else we deal with is when you realize that also we may none of us have ever actually seen.
		I mean, this is possible.
		We have never actually seen what these things really look like, given their capabilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Back up at Anchorage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anchorage, Alaska, yes.
unidentified		I'm pretty sure that what they're actually doing is taking samples and maybe growing their own species cloning.
unidentified		What do you think about that?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		It's within the realm of possibilities, but it wouldn't explain all of the things that they do.
		I would have to see how all of the data would fit into that scenario.
		It would have to be more specifically explained to me before I could comment really intelligently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
unidentified		Hello, where are you?
		This is Mark calling from Cogo in San Diego.
		Yes, Mark.
		Hi, Dr. Turner.
		I wanted to talk about an off-the-wall possibility, and that's the possibility that perhaps maybe the, I don't know why I say spiritual, but perhaps the mental powers of the collective intelligence of all the people are perhaps creating this, that they're bringing it into being?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a theory that I've heard expressed before.
		I mean, maybe it is off the wall.
		I think that we would have to then redefine what we call bringing into being because these things are photographed, videotaped, leave landing traces, permanent ones, are on radar.
		They have a real physicality.
		If we're creating that, then we might as well call ourselves gods, huh?
unidentified		I wanted to ask a question about what you said.
		You said that you thought the beings were more concerned with the physical rather than the spiritual or mental.
		Could you explain that in more detail?
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I think their agenda, unfortunately, is not a primarily spiritual program as they would have us think sometimes and as we would ourselves like to believe sometimes.
		That they are here simply for, say, assisting us through an inevitable transition phase of some catastrophe or assisting us to make the transition psychically and spiritually to the next dimension or level.
		Things like this are reported very frequently.
		I don't think that explanation is covered by, or covers the data in the very physical procedures that are as much a part of this as anything else that these beings do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, this is out of left field.
		But I do a lot of on-air programs.
		And I've noticed that I'm getting a lot of calls from people who feel something is impending.
		Something's going to happen.
		Something big is coming.
		Kind of an unsettled, nonspecific, something's coming sort of feeling.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is being fostered, I think, massively.
		I'm not sure who's doing all the fostering, although some of the alien groups, if there are various groups, and we can theorize there may well be, are promoting this idea very heavily.
		Also, some of the people with military backgrounds who talk about and research in this field have pointed toward that as well.
		They may well have information from some sources we're not privy to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Turner.
		Good evening.
unidentified		How are you doing?
unidentified		I have a few questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		I just wanted to state my opinion.
unidentified		I think DFOs are along the same line as parapsychology and stuff like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't have a lot of time.
unidentified		Okay, well, I think it's on the same line as parapsychology, Mahar Baba, and astrology and astral bodies, auroras, tarot cards, witchcraft and magic.
		I'm sorry, this is a sudden surprise.
		I've been trying for about an hour to get through.
		I think that this kind of stuff that she's talking about and represents just pretty much sets the stage for what's to come.
		I don't think, if I may say, Satan wants a world that doesn't believe in religion.
		I think he wants a world that believes in supernaturalism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		I'm sorry, but we're going to have to stop it there.
		Dr. Turner, we are out of time.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm terribly sorry.
		We're going to have to do this again.
		You've been a very good guest.
		While it's been unsettling, it's been fascinating, and I would like to know that you would come back and do it again.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		I would very much like to.
		There's so much material we didn't even get close to talking about, and I would love to do it again at any point.
		May I add one thing about my book?
		Sure.
		It is not now just exclusively available from us, although I'd be happy to take any individual orders.
		But many bookstores, especially the ones that carry this material routinely, can get it from a number of distributors nationalwide now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Dr. Turner.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
dr karla turner ▲ ● ▼		Enjoyed it greatly, Arnie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Anybody who wants a copy of this program or any Dreamland program can get it by dialing 24 hours a day, 503-664-7966.
		503-664-7966.
		Good night, everybody.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not matched.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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