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Aug. 14, 1994 - Art Bell
01:27:29
Dreamland with Art Bell - John Mack - Alien Abductions
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I don't know.
I'm going to go ahead and do it.
Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-TALK.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
1-800-618-TALK. First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222, or the wildcard
line at area code 702-727-1295, 727-1295, in the 702 area code. Now again, here's Art
Now again, here I am.
My guest is Harvard Professor John Mack, and we'll get back to him in just a moment.
I would say a million questions to ask.
We'll never have time for all of them.
I do promise you we will get the telephone lines open shortly, so stay right where you are.
Harvard Professor John Mack.
Dr. Mack.
Yes, sir.
Dr. Mack, we were talking about the way people are affected by this.
What about the generally deeply religious people?
How are they affected?
Well, sometimes, at first, like this one man that was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and initially he thought that these were demons, and the people in his community said that they were demons.
And then he realized that they were something else.
He wasn't quite sure what, but that it was some kind of actual beings or some kind of actual experience that was occurring in his life and that he had a relationship with these creatures and that this was something different than his religious training.
A lot of times when people are not familiar with the abduction syndrome, religious people will say, well, this is the work of the devil, that God would never appear in such a strange form of humanoid beings, and they get labeled as embodiment of demons.
There's no particular pattern of religious background associated with this or reaction
that's associated with different kinds of religious experience, which is one of the
reasons, by the way, why the phenomenon seems to me to be so real and so robust, because
it kind of takes precedence over people's religious experience.
In other words, it's not an expression of some kind of religious background.
It has its own shape and form which cuts across all religious backgrounds.
Is there any indication with all of your research about what these beings want or what the focus of their attention is during these abductions?
The difficulty with that question is that what they Then you're dealing with sort of alien psychology, but the pattern that tends to occur has to do with some kind of, I don't know what you would call it, but I guess reproductive joining with us, perhaps, is the best way.
but there's over and over and over again, there's a description of sperm being taken from men
over eggs from women, re-implantation of a fertilized egg
with something done to it through the alien principle, whatever this is,
then the fetus removed from the woman later on.
All of this again, and then finally the abductee being taken
to see these hybrid offspring in the craft.
So there's some kind of reproductive program here.
programs here.
Now again, I don't take this quite as literally as some of my colleagues do.
I don't know again in what reality this is occurring.
There is not a documented case of an actual pregnancy that was tested for and then found mysteriously to be removed.
There's no question that some physiological changes occur in women and they experience a fetus being taken, no question about that, and it's not simply their imagination, but I'm very leery about saying that any of these things occur literally in our reality.
As you said in the, what do you call it, the program notes at the beginning of your program, that even though things are strange, not necessarily in our reality. It doesn't make them any
less real.
That's right. But they're not necessarily real in the literal
physical terms. For example, nobody's actually got a picture of these hybrid beings or of
the aliens at all for that matter that's reliable. But to the abductees, and this is not a delusion,
their connection with these hybrid beings is very powerful.
In fact, one of the most poignant things that a person can go through who works with
abductees is to take them through the memory of being taken into the ship and confronted with
a hybrid being and told, this is yours, and they sort of know it's theirs because it sort
of looks like them, and then asked to hold this creature and to nurture it.
And they know that they have no control of when they'll ever see it again, and yet they
feel somehow they are supposed to bond with this creature or it won't do well. And it's
a very real and disturbing phenomenon.
A woman may weep on my couch when that is recalled.
So again, it has something to do with reproduction, obviously.
So that's one thing, but that's not the whole story.
Another very powerful part, and this is Again, there's a fair amount of controversy about this.
Another powerful part has to do with what might be called ecological messages.
A message comes through to the humans that you humans are treating the Earth as if you owned it.
As if it was here just for you to destroy, to exploit, as a kind of giant marketplace to be consumed, disposed of, and for the purpose of this one species that has developed the technology of agriculture and of city building and of mining and basically the power to Remove the surface of the Earth and its resources and destroy the Earth as a living system.
And over and over and over again, the communication comes to us from these beings, and it's powerfully felt by the abductees, this can't go on.
In other words, this is not yours to do this with.
Do you get the sense, Doctor, they are saying this to us as Our creators, or simply as concerned beings?
There's nothing to suggest that they... Often the abductees, and again this is quite controversial, and in UFO circles I'm sort of seen as kind of, you know, gone soft new age or something, but there's nothing soft or new age about this.
This is a hard-edged reality that is being smashed into the abductees with tremendous power in which this shakes them up And these are not people that are necessarily environmentalists,
they are often uneducated people who hadn't thought about these things.
One man said, but I'm just a simple person, what am I supposed to do about the earth?
And they said, well you've got to find a way because you love nature and you don't want
to see the earth destroyed.
And then he's become very active and concerned about this.
And another woman that got this message began teaching about ecology in the classroom and
getting other teachers to include that in their courses.
Another man who had a very powerful abduction experience at age nine which deeply filled
his mind with images of the destruction of the earth and he's become one of the most
Extraordinary businessman in terms of his commitment to the sustainability of the Earth's living system.
So it's a very real, very powerful part of this thing.
And often the abductees will, rather than saying this is directly from the Creator, will see the alien beings as emissaries from some divine source.
Intermediaries is often the word they use.
That they're closer to the source than we are.
described as, well, the one type they call directly light beams.
They're not all gray.
They're these taller, more luminous beams that they call light beams.
But even the little grays themselves are seen as being more closely connected
with the source of creation.
Wow.
I see.
That almost stops me.
Let me ask you this.
What about children versus adults?
In the cases that you have studied, how many have involved children?
They are particularly interesting, of course.
Yeah, I've seen about eight or ten children now who have this syndrome.
two of them under three, which by the way Art is one of the reasons why it's very difficult
to utilize any kind of fancy personality theory to explain the abduction story because it
would be difficult to apply such theories to children as young as two and a half.
When a little boy, as in the case of mine, says, Mommy, the arrows came, because you
know the big eyes often make the children think of owls, the owls came in the night
or Mommy, the little men came in the night and took me into the sky and you didn't stop
them, they say it with fear.
It's hard to attribute that to some kind of deep seated personality problem.
Sure is.
They don't have one yet.
Well, that's remarkable and I would guess it would take a very sensitive adult or parent
to discern what's happened to this child versus just the usual you had a bad dream, dear.
Yeah, but if the child over and over again points to the sky and says, I went up there last night and, you know, they took me up and the house went away, you know, and they say that very clearly and vividly, it doesn't sound like a nightmare.
No, it doesn't.
Although I still think most parents would say, well, you just had a bad dream, dear.
Well, that may be.
In other words, it may be that the ones where the parents come to realize that this is something more than a bad dream may be the minority.
There may be lots of cases out there, even in your radio audience, where the parents haven't realized what was going on.
Well, all right.
I would very much like to get to the telephones, which we'll do shortly.
But, Dr. Mack, I would like to... I guess I'd like to first ask you about your critics and what you would like to say to your critics.
You're in a very prestigious position.
You've really got your neck out.
What made you stick your neck out?
And now that it's out, how do you handle your critics?
Well, I get criticized from all sorts of directions.
I mean, the most serious critics are the ones that say that you can't prove this with physical evidence, therefore you can't claim that anything extraordinary is going on here.
And my answer to that is that we have to expand our notions of evidence.
It's my strong suit.
As I said earlier, is clinical diagnosis.
When you have thousands of people reporting in great detail very, very similar accounts, which they themselves are skeptical about.
They themselves have not, as the woman that we talked about earlier, have not read about this.
They are doubters and they're troubled when they hear that somebody else has had the experience.
It shocks them.
When you hear and the narratives are spoken about reluctantly, when you hear something like that, you know that you're dealing with something that occurred, something that happened to people.
That's not the way psychosis works or dreams work or displacements from other kinds of traumas.
This is... something happened.
Now... Alright, well if you... Doctor, if you were asked for evidence, physical evidence, to prove most psychiatric diagnosis, it would not be possible, would it?
That's right, and... but the thing about this that I've said over and over again, this simply cannot be.
In other words, in our world view, the universe cannot contain intelligences that behave like this.
We don't believe that there are other intelligences that Other than that, which is part of the human imagination.
So, when these beings show up as real and enter our physical world, and actually, in some occasions, people are witnessed to be missing during the abduction.
Children will find their parents missing, or parents will find their... Well, it works both ways.
Children find their parents missing, parents find their children missing, friends find each other gone.
I mean, there are not a lot of those well-documented, but there are some.
Or there are the whole variety of physical findings that we're familiar with of cuts and scoop marks and complex patterned ulcers and other lesions on people's bodies that follow the abduction experiences.
Those physical findings are important.
They wouldn't stand up by themselves medically, just on their own.
But when you combine them with the experiences, you've got a whole, and the fact that this occurs in such young children, And people are of sound mind.
You have a whole, and of course what tends to be forgotten is there's a very tight association with UFOs here.
In other words, the UFO may be observed in the community when the abductee hasn't seen it themselves.
In other words, I have cases where a neighbor says, you know, there was a funny looking craft over your house.
And the person says, oh my god, and they've had an abduction experience.
Or a famous case up our way where UFO was tracked by virtually all the media in a northeasterly direction and abductees reporting their experiences that coincided with the media tracking of the UFOs.
You've got to take this entire set of phenomena together if you're going to account for this.
Just to single out some sort of psychological aspect of the person Misses much of the phenomenon.
And my critics tend to do that.
In other words, they say, well, I'm just sort of gullible about believing these people.
Well, it's not a matter of believing them.
It's a matter of the fact that the most economical explanation of what the person is reporting is that they're telling the truth.
And even if the truth isn't supposed to be, the fact that something can't exist Doesn't keep it from happening.
Indeed.
Speaking of that, and keeping it from happening, I would think that one thing they would desperately want is to prevent it from occurring again if it scared them or they found it disagreeable, which I assume most do.
Is there a way, is there any way at all, to prevent it?
Well, Ann Druffle and Dr. Easel Brenman and North Carolina people have tried to develop ways of doing that.
My people have not been too successful with that.
One of the most curious things about this, and here again this is a controversial area within the UFO abduction researchers or investigators, shall we say, themselves, is that the phenomenon, in my experience, changes over time.
In other words, as the person goes deep into their experience and acknowledges the reality of it, and demand is in some cases a more reciprocal, more equal relationship with the alien beings.
The experience changes.
It becomes more reciprocal.
There is an exchange of information.
People often work alongside the aliens or they feel they're part of some evolutionary process in which this life is being planned for a future after human beings have destroyed the earth as a living system.
They feel they're part of some larger cosmic evolutionary process
and they themselves undergo some kind of spiritual change and they participate in this hybrid program much more
willingly and it becomes less of a traumatic kind of experience,
hard as that may be to believe.
Kind of like learning to love the bomb.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, I think that's one of the major questions here.
Is this simply like that?
In other words, it's an evil, but we've adapted to it.
Or is this in some way, by its very nature, a spiritually evolutionary kind of phenomenon?
Because a lot of people feel that it is.
Sounds like you believe that it is.
Do you advise?
I don't know.
I think that so many of the people, when they go deeply into their experience, stay with it.
and go through four, five, six, seven, eight sessions, they come to a place where there
is very great spiritual growth, deep love between them and the alien beings, which is
not just the Stockholm Syndrome where you sort of love your captors.
One of the men in my book, Peter, talked about a lost brotherhood.
We derive from a common source.
have talked about this, that they, we derive from a common source, we were separated, that's
maybe why they're humanoid, that they, that we grew separately in some kind of evolution
of beings or consciousness from some common divine source and that this, this is a coming
back together in the context of the ecological crisis on the planet.
Alright, we're about at the bottom of the hour, doctor, but is that what you encourage
when somebody wants to know how to handle it, do you encourage them to move in that
direction?
I don't encourage anything, but what I do allow the person to do is to have their experience.
In other words, to be with them, to hold the energy with them, to allow the trauma to unfold, and to go with them wherever they're going to go.
All right.
I have been accused of influencing people, for instance, and a woman that transcribed 2,200 pages of tapes of mine says there's not one sentence.
All right, Doctor, we've got to break off there.
Harvard professor John Mack right back.
With our film.
To participate in the program, call toll free 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255.
First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222, or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
And this is a very unusual opportunity for you to speak with Harvard professor Dr. John Mack.
And we're going to go to the telephones in just a moment, so if you're ready, I think we're ready.
Dr. Mack, are you there?
Good.
I have one question before we go to the telephones.
And it is.
We know about the abductions that people tell you about and many others about, because they come back to tell us.
But there are, in this country and others, many missing children, many missing adults.
Do you suppose, Dr. Mack, there are abductions where the person is not returned?
I don't think so.
I just don't think that's...
The way it works.
I haven't studied that, but my sense is that those are more human kidnappings.
With certain exceptions, like the Travis Walton case, which was made into this movie, Fire in the Sky, that he was gone for five or six days, but usually it's a matter of two or three hours.
There may be cases where, I did hear of one case where a small airplane disappeared out
in the Bermuda Triangle area.
It didn't go into the water but it was taken up.
At least that was the recollection of people that studied it.
I don't think it's not well corroborated and I don't really believe that there is any evidence
that those are abduction cases.
This is the end of side one.
Please leave the cassette exactly where it is.
One last, last question, then we'll go to the phones.
If you were faced with an abduction yourself, Dr. Mack, with all you know about abductions, would you submit to it, given choice, or would you run like hell?
You know it's a strange thing where we're located in the culture.
I've never had an abduction experience and I think that this is so controversial and I think they're protecting me.
In one sense, I'd sort of like to know what it's like so I could authenticate it more easily for people.
On the other hand, I think probably my credibility would suffer, so I'm probably better off... So you might submit to it, but not tell anybody?
Yeah, I suppose.
If you admit you've had these experiences, then that's just another way of disqualifying you.
Oh, that's exactly right, doctor.
Let's try a few telephone calls, see what's out there.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Yes, Doctor, uh, do you have... I have a list of the doctors that were on that, uh, information, uh, default memory board.
Some of them are, uh, worked on Project Pandora, Slammer, and MKUltra and some others.
I was trying to find it to fax you.
All right, are you wanting a list of researchers, ma'am, is that it?
No, I have them.
You have them?
I have them.
I would imagine Dr. Mack does as well.
All right, thank you very much.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Harvard professor John Mack.
Hi.
Yes.
Hi, where are you, ma'am?
San Diego.
San Diego.
What is your question?
I wanted to ask him why it isn't possible to somehow either audio or videotape record people's bedrooms that have repeat experiences and maybe get something on tape or film.
A lot of people have tried to do that.
The question is why don't we have more audio tapes and videotapes?
People try to do that.
They will report some buzzing sound or beeping sound and then you listen to the audio tape.
I'm never quite convinced it's that clear, and videotapes.
There's one case that Bud Hopkins reports where they had a videotape running all night, and you see people.
is no videotape of the actual abduction, but you see somehow the videotape gets turned
off and you see the people before the abduction and then you see them in a somewhat different
relationship or coming back after the abduction, but you never see anything in between.
And one of the properties that this phenomenon has, the energy properties, is to affect all
kinds of tricks with electronic media.
I mean it would be, if they did not, they, whatever this they is, did not want to be
discovered, they would have no problem in incapacitating a video camera.
I mean, that would be... Child's play to them, sure.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Hi.
Hi.
Yes, sir.
Turn your radio off and tell us where you're calling from, please.
I'm calling from the St.
Louis area.
My name is Forrest Crawford.
Nice to hear you in St.
Louis, John.
How you doing?
Pretty good.
I've got a question relating to people who have experiences with aliens that are not fearful, for instance, of their experiences or
they come away with more than a traumatic rendition of that experience.
And then compared to someone else who has an experience, say, with the exact same kind
of aliens and the same taxonomian scenario happens, but then they are very fearful and
traumatized.
Basically, I am asking for you to comment on what you think attributes to that.
There I think that psychology or psychiatry might have something to offer.
For example, the last case in my book is the case of a man in his late thirties, a businessman, who has what I would call a very kind of advanced state of consciousness.
In other words, he's open to anything that's possible.
Someone has to be in control. He's a person that can let in experience.
And when he was nine years old, a huge UFO illuminated the car that his mother was driving.
They were coming back from the movies in upstate New York.
And there were two of his older sister, older brother, younger brother, I'm sorry, were in the car.
And everybody with him was frightened.
The mother was terrified, the sister was frightened, the little boy was frightened, and the mother sort of pushed him down, and he was all excited!
And he accepted this thing, and he felt there was a communication from the beings that were in the craft, and in the hypnosis session he was actually taken up into the craft and given all kinds of information about the future and what he was supposed to do.
There was nothing traumatic about it at all.
He was open, receptive, he had that kind of consciousness.
Whereas I think people that are more closed in themselves, more restricted in their minds,
more wanting to maintain control of everything around them are more likely to have a traumatic
experience.
It seems to be that there is some relationship between the evolution or state of consciousness
of the abductee and the nature of the experience.
It may be their paradigm could be causing their difference in reaction to the experiences.
Something like that.
Something in the state of mind, the receptivity, the openness.
I've known, for example, a woman who is a leader in understanding shamanism and consciousness change and evolutionary thinking whose abduction experiences from the beginning have been informational With luminous beings and not with the sort of tough little greys.
Alright, thank you very much.
Doctor, have you made any determination about how many different types of beings have been described to you?
To me, about five kinds, but there are people that have more information about that than I do.
Jim Harder, for instance, in the Berkeley area, knows many more types than I do.
I do.
He's been studying this for 20 years.
Linda Howe has described all kinds.
Mine have been restricted to the little greys, the more taller luminous beings, the reptilian looking ones, sometimes the praying mantis like creatures are seen, and then various The more human looking ones that work alongside the other beings on the ships.
But I mean, I'm not an alien demographer.
I understand.
On the toll free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Hello, where are you calling from, please?
I'm calling from Northern California, Art.
Yes, sir.
You have a great show tonight.
Thank you.
Yeah, I wanted to ask Dr. Mack if there's any similarities between the people that have been abducted That's a very good question and the fact that as far as we can tell there have not been any psychological characteristics found is again one of the pieces of evidence that we're dealing with something that isn't related to the
I don't know.
or personal background or conflicts of the individual.
There are people that have had very disrupted, unhappy lives or from working class families,
but there are also cases from very wealthy families, professional families, where there
have been very loving, intact families, as in the case of the businessman that I talked
about earlier, who was the last chapter in my book.
There is every type of profession represented, including psychiatrists, diplomats, and so
Thomas Bullard found more men in his survey.
Other people have found more women.
between male and female is there any uh... anything noticeable there
uh... depends uh...
uh...
comical and found more men and women survey of other people from more women
uh... it seems fairly equal i i think that the men may have somewhat more trouble reporting
their experiences because there's a a little bit more
shame connected with it.
A barrier, kind of a barrier.
Because to be so helpless, so passively unable to do anything is really terrible for women and men, but it's particularly shameful for men.
They don't often tell you about it.
That's right, because a man has a kind of a control thing, doesn't he?
A little more, yeah.
I mean, to be made helpless, have a cup put over the penis and sperm taken.
The first case in my book is a man who, when he was 16, he and his friend were in a Nash Rambler, and they were sleeping.
came and they took him into a female being, took him into a pod and he described some
sort of, you know, in a somewhat macho way, a sexual encounter and then the information
that was given to him about the state of the earth and so forth.
But under hypnosis this turned out to be much more humiliating.
It was the more typical cup put over his penis and the female being in charge sort of watched
over this and said, you know, we're not here for sex and we're here to take your sperm
and he found it really quite humiliating.
So he modified the story when he told the story consciously, which again relates to
the question about hypnosis.
I mean here his conscious recall because he wanted to represent himself to himself and
to me in a more favorable light was less accurate in my view than what came out when he was
When he was relaxed under hypnosis and brought forth what was a much more typical account of being forced into this situation.
The diversity in the stories is in itself revealing, isn't it?
Yeah, and it tends to counter the notion that hypnosis is distorting, because the conscious ego did more distorting in that situation than hypnosis.
Exactly.
All right.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Good evening.
No, I guess you're not.
On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Hello.
Hello, yes.
Where are you calling from, sir?
Missoula.
Missoula, Montana.
All right.
Have you ever considered the possibility that these creatures are not aliens, but maybe they're from the future?
Oh, yes.
Thank you.
And the dimensional question.
You mentioned the possibility of other dimensions earlier.
What is your thinking on this?
Well, I think that it's a good question.
There's no reason to believe that entities, beings that have the technology to have UFOs that can flick on and off the radar screen, that can go 7,000 miles an hour in one direction, make a sharp right-angle turn with no skids.
In other words, they've overcome many ideas we have about gravity.
And that they can float people through walls, evidently, and there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't be able to move through time in some way.
That's certainly a possibility.
What was the other part of your question?
Well, he's gone now, but that was the basis of his question.
Could they be from the future, I believe he said, and I added other dimensions.
Yeah, the other dimension.
That was your question.
I mean this whole dimension thing is increasingly physicists are talking about string theory
and talk about a physicist Ron Bryan who sees in subatomic particles that you can't account
for all of them within the physics, the subatomic physics that we have in the four dimensional
universe, that we need additional dimensions and that Fred Allen Wolfe is a guy named Bonanza
Bernanski who's written a book about other dimensions that these beings could come from.
That was originally Jacques Vallée's idea that they exist in a parallel universe that
they pass into our universe so that they, again that would tend to go against trying
to locate that they're from this or that planet or this or that star in one or another galaxy
that it may be that they exist in some dimension that we don't even understand.
Atomic beings will often say, by the way, during their experiences, as they recall their
experiences, this is not occurring in space time as I know it and it's hard for them,
they find that very difficult to put into words but the message is consistent that this
is not happening in our space time universe to them, that one woman put it, all time dimensions
collapse into one time or something like that.
In other words, we don't have language for it, but that the altered state alters the sense, as they recall the experience, alters the sense of space and time.
And I think that's a much underappreciated fact.
In other words, we're too ready to try to see this thing literally as occurring in our physical universe, rather than expanding our notions of reality to other Other dimensions, other possible universes that are not simply our physical four-dimensional world.
Alright, well while we're on that subject, I interviewed Mr. Monroe from the Monroe Institute a few weeks ago, and he talks a great deal about out-of-body travel, which is clearly some sort of altered state, and I wonder if it has any relationship to either the altered states that we've been examining tonight, Or whether the process, the out-of-body process, also has some relationship to what we're discussing.
The argument against that, about what happens to those abused, is that the people are really gone.
It's not just an out-of-body experience, as he puts it, it's an out-of-the-house experience.
They're physically gone.
you physically gone, but I don't know that it's either or.
Sometimes people will experience themselves floating above their bodies or that they've
entered the ship but they're not sure the body is left and there may be gradations in
between, that there is a separation of consciousness and the body.
That has been the experience of a number of people now.
Again, all kinds of tricks of consciousness seem to occur in this phenomenon and it's
not just, I don't believe, and again much more research needs to be done, I don't believe
it's simply literally that the person is physically removed.
I think there is maybe something to be learned from the out of body studies, but I don't
know more about that.
I remember reading a long time ago, and I've been trying to find it, Carl Jung kind of
prophesied that there would be a big surgence of flying saucer sightings and contactees
and such.
And he attributed more to spiritual beings than he did to aliens.
Yeah, this was before the abduction syndrome had been identified, but he wrote about flying saucers and saw them as what he called a psychoid phenomenon, something which It exists in the psycho-spiritual realm but shows up in the
physical realm and is perceived by people.
In other words, it breaks down the barrier between the spiritual, the psychological,
and the physical.
It's a crossover phenomenon.
I think there's a lot to that.
I think one of the most extraordinary aspects of this, and I think one of the things that's
kind of gotten, going back to my critics, gotten people so mad is that there's kind
of a, we've created a kind of sacred barrier between the spiritual domain and the physical
domain as if they should never meet.
It's kind of like separation of church and state.
In fact, I've even been accused of breaking down the distinction of church and state and opening the doors to fascism by saying that this is both spiritual and physical at the same time.
This does that, it crosses that sacred barrier, something that should be in the unseen realm, should be in the spiritual realm, should be mythic, should be beings that are part of the imagination, or that we would study in departments of anthropology, but that it shows up in this hard-edged way in our physical world.
That's a crime against humanity from the standpoint of the Western worldview.
Do you think you're beginning to cross that barrier, Doctor, because of hard evidence in your research or because of a kind of desperation to explain the inexplicable?
I think that we simply don't have another way to think about it.
In other words, that you're dealing with something that does show up in the physical world.
I mean, we do have physical evidence.
It's not as good as the critics would like, but then, you know, I want to say something about that.
The critics keep demanding, you know, good physical evidence, but You know, I've had people admit that it wouldn't matter what physical evidence we have, they just wouldn't believe it because it can't be.
In other words, if a piece of a UFO were found in a field by a teenage boy, they'd examine the teenage boy, find him psychotic and unreliable, and destroy the pedigree.
They actually did find, you know, in crop formation in Germany, a plate that was dug up in the crop formation which had all the same symbols on it
that the crop formation itself had. And this plate has been studied, analyzed, found to
have metals in it that are peculiar and haven't been found anyplace else. And that has not
gotten the publicity that you would think that it had because it is the smoking gun, it is the
physical artifact that they're all asking for.
So what they do in that case is just not pay that much attention to it. I mean, that would be the
exact thing that they're asking for, that critics ask for, but if we're not ready for it, we just
It's like the you know meteorites in the scientists who discovered meteorites in Europe uh... repressed the evidence for thirty nine years because
he thought he would be ridiculed if he said that
objects could fall from the sky all right uh... doctor we're gonna pause there where the
top of the hour so rest for about six or seven minutes when we come back
we're going to tell people how to get your book all right Okay.
All right, Dr. Mack, stay right there.
Professor, Harvard professor John Mack is my guest.
Fascinating session.
Still plenty of time to get in if you would like to.
We've got another hour to go.
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Back now to Harvard, Professor John Mack.
Professor Mack, what is the title of your book?
It's called Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens.
It's pretty straightforward.
Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens.
And where, I take it it is a compilation of a lot of the research?
Yeah, the first two chapters are overviews of the phenomenon as I and others have described it, both historically and in terms of what an actual abduction experience is like.
And then there are thirteen cases that I've seen that illustrate various aspects of the of the phenomenon, the cases tend to get more complex and
deeper into the meaning of the phenomenon as one goes through the book.
And the last chapter is kind of a blue sky look at what the whole thing might mean, what
its implications are for psychology, for the human future, for ecology, for our spiritual
development, that kind of thing, which is not factual necessarily but derives from the
cases themselves.
All right.
Who publishes?
Scribners.
And where can folks get it?
Well, I hope they can get it at any bookstore in their town.
If they can't, I hope they'll tell their book dealers to try to get it.
But it's fairly widely available.
I think so.
All right.
Very good.
I think anybody who's been abducted or is concerned about the phenomenon would certainly go out and get it.
I'm sure it's And I'd very much like to read it myself.
I have not yet, Dr. Mack.
Hi there.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Professor Mack.
Good evening.
This is Fritz from Phoenix Calling.
Yes, Fritz.
Mine is more like a statement.
In the early 40s, Dr. Wilhelm Reich, a scientist way ahead of his time, was researching cosmic energy.
He was finding an energy field called Organ Energy.
Now the government destroyed his life work, put the books away, put him in prison where Dr. Reich mysteriously died.
Now today, with the global shrinking constantly, the information is exchanged faster than ever.
We are on a higher level of understanding.
Now, Dr. Mech, the ball is in your court.
Run with it.
The reward will be unimaginable.
Do what Dr. Reich couldn't do.
Well, thank you.
I mean, it's not as if there isn't an awful lot of... Actually, what that interesting quote gets us into is the whole question of what is the resistance in this culture to accepting that something important is going on.
Mind you, that doesn't mean we understand it.
That doesn't mean we know what these energies are, or what these beings are, or what their ultimate purpose is.
But it seems to me that that it's worth looking at why this
creates so much controversy why on the one hand people deny it why they want to
find anything but those little i mean
you need to work threatening but but why is it threatening and how is it
threatening well the unknown is always threatening always a little frightening
but but what makes this more unknown than anything else i mean we
we've never really understood life itself or why we're here or what
death is like or what happens uh...
beyond uh... the the earth i mean it seems to me that if uh...
if we're connected with other intelligences in the universe that isn't
any more frightening than being uh...
totally uh... isolated on a universe which is what
you know it's nothing but energy and matter It seems to me that it would be a subject of fascination.
I just wonder why there is such a Well, what kind of answers do you come up with?
Is it religious-based?
Is it some other part of our social structure?
Where?
I think it has to do with what you were talking about earlier, the need to feel that we're somehow in control.
I sometimes call it the astrodome mentality, you know, that we can somehow wall ourselves off from nature and control nature.
and uh... that we're the top of the uh...
intelligence-picking order in the cosmos and and not only does this show that we're
not at the top that there's other intelligences probably far greater than our own in certain capacities anyway uh...
but they can also do with it what they will take us against our will and uh...
and uh...
show us that we're not in control i mean i i i i mean one could suggest doctor
there's not enough evidence uh... to support egotistical sort of narrow
you either women well in other words of
That we are alone, that we are the only intelligence.
That's an egotistical sort of protective sort of view, and there's really not enough evidence to support that either, and rarely do I hear it challenged that way.
I think that's well put.
In other words, the burden of proof is always put on somebody that says that there is other intelligence in the universe, whereas it seems to me it ought to be the other way around.
Well, or at least equally challenged.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know.
Attitude might be the healthiest one.
I know Lawrence Rockefeller.
I know Lawrence Rockefeller.
I've known him for a number of years.
I've known other members of his family.
I don't understand the question.
Well, I do, Dr. Mack.
Anytime Ms.
and been to meetings, you know, that he's, you know, that...
Well, I'll give you where that comes from.
I don't understand the question.
Well, I do, Dr. Mack.
Anytime Miss Rockefeller is mentioned, it's always with respect to a giant conspiracy theory.
And so I'm sure they're kind of wondering if you're not some sort of foot soldier
in this new one-world order business that they suspect Miss Rockefeller is wrapped up in.
Is that the idea?
Yeah, I'm sure it is.
So, what do you say to that?
Well, I mean, I just don't... I don't know of any such... I'm not familiar with any such conspiracy.
I mean, Mr. Rockefeller is somebody that has been interested in Human consciousness, human development, a very, uh, quite a progressive, uh, unusual thinker, but I don't know if he's been part of any, uh, I know he's interested in the UFO phenomenon, and I, but I don't know if any, uh, if he's been part of any kind of, uh, conspiracy.
All right, good.
On the, uh, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Hello, where are you calling from, please?
Hello there.
No, you're not.
On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Yes, I have two questions.
All right, where are you from?
Oregon.
Oregon, all right.
First of all, anecdotally, there's been talk about implants made by these beings into human, either in their ears or their nose.
I was wondering if the doctor has learned anything about that in his studies.
And the second question is... All right, you're on a portable phone, sir, and it sounds terrible.
Okay, is that better?
Yeah, that's better.
Okay, turned around.
Alright, implants and what else?
And also anecdotally, all of the abductions, at least what I hear about, come from people that are either in their cars on a lonely road at night or are in their bedrooms at night and never just off of a busy street corner or something like that.
What does the doctor say about that?
I'm going to try to answer the two questions together because they both have to do with the matter of subtlety, okay?
The implants, I mean there was a time when I was first starting out and I heard about these implants and then I got recovered a wiry object from the nose of a I think so.
I was working with and I heard of several other implants that have been found from,
like you say, from people's orifices or people's bodies.
And I thought, wow, this is going to give us that smoking gun.
It's going to prove that something bizarre is going on here and there will be some unusual
elements that will be found in strange combinations that are not found on earth and that kind
of thing.
Actually, that has not proven to be the case.
There have been several implants found following abduction, small objects that have been looked at carefully.
David Pritchard, MIT, has examined one.
But they haven't been shown to contain any unusual combinations of elements.
Again, whatever is at work here is not handiness, a smoking gun.
It's a subtle phenomenon.
Applies to the other question as well.
That you don't have a situation, and he's quite correct, where you and I are walking along the street, a UFO hovers over the street 100, 200 yards away, and zap!
Several pedestrians walking along are floated up in the sky before us and all of downtown Boston, Las Vegas or whatever.
That does not happen.
He's quite correct.
It happens.
Usually there have been cases where more than one person has been taken.
There was a quite well-known case in Nebraska where several people were taken to an amusement park.
It's not always cars.
It's not always from the bedroom.
There's been children that Bud Hopkins has described taken from schoolyards.
The one woman I've talked with myself has taken off a snowmobile in a field.
There are unusual situations, but they tend to be relatively difficult to get vivid documentation of the abduction itself.
It tends to occur with a certain amount of disguise.
I answer the two questions together because I think it points to the fact that the phenomenon has a good deal of subtlety.
That's good answer.
On the toll free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
I don't know another reason for that.
I think where it's there, there's evidence for it.
There's a lot that can't be explained, but it's not as if a fleet of UFOs
came down over Washington and just floated up to Congress or something.
All right, very good.
That's a good answer.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Where are you calling from, please?
Hello there.
No, you're not.
On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Hello.
Hi there.
Where are you, ma'am?
This is Karen from San Diego.
Okay.
I'd like to ask Dr. Mack if anybody he has worked with has experienced something called sleep paralysis.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Yep.
Is that pretty common with people who have been abducted?
Well, sleep paralysis is associated often with a syndrome called narcolepsy, where the person's body is paralyzed or they suddenly fall asleep unexpectedly.
They can't stay awake.
In certain instances, these individuals do have some aspects that look like sleep paralysis,
in other words, that they wake up and they can't move.
But there's a whole set of other phenomena that go along with that.
In other words, in these situations, you have these little beings with the dark eyes around the bed
that are consistently described.
The person is experienced as being floated down the hall, through the wall, up into the sky.
There are many procedures done in the UFO and these stories are quite consistently told.
I talked with Dr. Antz in the St. Louis...
Louis area who is an expert in sleep paralysis and I spoke with him about this and I have spoken with other experts who actually study sleep paralysis and they say that it doesn't contain all the dimensions that are found in the abduction syndrome.
So it's one, and often we find that, you know, that somebody will take one aspect of this whole syndrome and say, well, maybe that's what it's about, you know.
UFOs are sort of room-like, so maybe this is a recollection of a birth experience or something of that kind.
Take one aspect and then make a whole theory out of it.
All right.
On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Where are you calling from, please?
I'm calling from Seattle.
Seattle, yes, ma'am.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Dr. Mack.
Hi.
Hi.
Hey, this whole thing is totally weird, right?
But I was just wondering, I want to ask Dr. Mack, what is, if you can pinpoint the single most weird thing I think it's the capacity of these beings, whatever they
are, to create all kinds of confusing theatrical elements.
As people describe on the ship, suddenly a part of the ship will turn into a theater
or a forest, or they'll find themselves walking down long corridors.
The capacity of this intelligence, whatever it is, to manufacture experiences for people
which we cannot tell in what dimension they are, what reality they are, and there's a
The inside of a ship can turn into something much larger, much smaller.
It's the degree to which this seems to be able to play with space, time, physical reality that I find extraordinary.
Dr. Mack, this may be off topic, or there may be a relationship.
A lot of people doing research into near-death experiences.
A lot of testimony from physicians saying, well, look, this whole story about going down a long, dark corridor toward a point of light and all the rest of it, ...is easily explainable as the brain dies, the synapses start dying from the outside toward the center, and therefore the light is toward the center.
And they try to explain it in that manner.
One, do you see any relationship between NDE and the possibility of another dimension with regard to these aliens?
And how do you...
How do you feel about that physical explanation of the phenomenon?
Well, I think it would be hard to... I mean, Michael Sebum, who's a cardiologist who's studied the near-death experiences, has several cases where people who were otherwise in a coma have actually been able to have their consciousness floated above The operating table reported what the surgeons were wearing, reported what was on the instruments, in the anesthesia instruments, in the OR, or they could even see what was going on down the corridor with relatives of theirs.
The near-death experience has a whole lot of elements to it which are difficult to explain purely in terms of the phenomenon of the dying brain.
I mean, the consistency with which people report complex, extremely powerful, vivid encounters with light and with relatives and with beings down this tunnel, which they experience all together in a reality, I don't know, I mean, why would the dying brain I guess I'm reaching out looking for some commonality in these varying described altered states.
have much other evidence of a dying brain creating that kind of complex and replicable
experience.
So I don't know.
I mean I...
I guess I'm reaching out looking for some commonality in these varying described altered
states.
I wonder if there is any commonality in them.
Well I think that they all involve the question of whether there can be a consciousness separated
from the body or the brain or whether there can be experiences that are not simply explainable
in the ordinary physiological way.
There's what Dr. Stanislav Goff calls transpersonal experiences, where our nature, our being, Dr. Mack, what do you think, as you look down the research road, will finally put this thing in a box so that we can understand it?
Will anything ever do that?
Will it be physical evidence, or do you think that these alternative areas of research Well, that's a very good question.
I think we need to study how this shows up in other countries, how widespread it is.
I think if we create an atmosphere in which people feel free to speak up, to report their
experiences increasingly where abductees are not so afraid as they are now that they are
going to lose their jobs or be humiliated, that will help because we will have more cases.
I would like to see many more clinicians, psychiatrists come into this. I am increasingly
getting letters from psychiatrists and psychologists who have cases and who are beginning to recognize
this and not try to put people into particular pigeon holes.
I think we need to establish once and for all that if that can be done that there is no
obvious psychological explanation for this by doing careful personality assessments. Some of
that has been done.
I would think by the time a clinician comes to you, for example, he would be sort of at
his last hope.
In other words, he would have reached out to every other conventional psychiatric road that he could and then be coming to you as a final desperate move.
Is that typical?
Well, I often do see clinicians who begin to suspect that they can't explain their cases, but until recently it was more likely to be that the person themselves would leave a psychologist that was trying to put them into a particular category.
Very often, because there is this sexual reproductive aspect to the encounter, a lot of times the mental health professional will be looking for a The history of sexual abuse, which can be doubly harmful because it not only is barking up the wrong tree sometimes, but it also will tend to sow distrust between family members unnecessarily.
So that can be a particular problem.
Alright, alright.
Dr. Mack, hold on.
We'll be back to you.
We're at the half hour mark.
You're listening to Dreamland.
My guest is Harvard professor John Mack.
Remember to get a copy of this program or any other Dreamland program.
Call area code 503-664-7966 24 hours a day.
Freeline, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Where are you calling from, please?
I'm calling from KBI in Seattle.
Yes, ma'am.
Dr. Mack, has any abductee that you've ever discussed abduction with ever told you that a medical doctor has advised them that they, during a skull x-ray or isotope scan, had had laser surgery on their skull?
I've certainly had a situation where somebody had, say, an implant in the nose, or one man a major kind of cut in his nose following an abduction
and then it healed up in a couple of days and a man looked in his nose and said,
there must be some extraordinary surgery went on here, you know, I mean, that this was healed up so fast.
Or people would be asked, have you had any surgery, in other cases, have you had any surgery done to your nose
or to your mouth?
I had this kind of question asked me in 1976 during the isotope scan
and I had no skin scarred, but I was shown an incision that the doctor claimed was a,
or shown, you know, the isotope scan thing on the, whatever those light things was during the scan,
that I had the size of about a half dollar circle on my right skull
and I told him I've never had any skull surgery.
Have you had experiences?
I've had a lot of experiences.
I'm afraid I'm an abductee.
Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if you are or you aren't, but I certainly... I've seen a man of light.
I've had miracles.
You know where I've... Alright, she's saying she's seen a man of light.
Yeah.
On January the 1st of 1957, he awakened me in my apartment.
I had a child dying in Children's Hospital and another child down with the croup and I was sleeping in the living room.
He was 6'8".
Because he touched the door jamb, and he filled the whole apartment with light.
Obviously, I recognized him, because I said to him, I can't go with you now.
Can't you see my children are both sick?
He just disappeared, and my ex-husband, my former spouse, jumped up and asked me how I turned on and off the lights in the entire apartment, and I said I didn't, and I told him about the man of light.
He thought I was crazy.
Well, that's what I was referring to earlier, the tall or luminous beings that some people have experience with.
Yeah.
I take it you don't think that these aliens are dangerous to us, that they're basically benign, Doctor?
No, I don't know.
I mean, you know, one of the difficulties for us human beings is we tend to be rather species-centered, you know, and kind of egotistical.
We were talking about that earlier.
I think it might be that they are, from our point of view, neither benign nor malignant.
It may be that we are in some way so radically out of balance with nature that this involves, as one of the abductees put it, some kind of cosmic correction, which we find unpleasant and which is inconsiderate from the human point of view.
When you consider the fact that human beings are the cause of the elimination of countless living species every day that we live and breathe, I mean eliminate completely other species, the fact that we would be in some ways inconvenienced by another force that's involved in some sort of cosmic correction is hardly You know, it's a great moment compared to the destruction that we bring on the earth in any given day, you know, to other species.
Doctor, it brings on this question.
Would it be your view that our industrial society has gone the wrong route in development, in other words, in developing ourselves Well, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't, it's a little hard for me to get into this sort of pious quarterbacking kind of role.
I mean, but when you think about it, there is something a little bit bizarre about, if you step back, and I think one of the things that studying this phenomenon has allowed me to do is to kind of step back and look at ourselves a little more objectively, and the idea that one species should Appropriate to itself the entire earth and divide it up into sections and call those countries and lands and claim that we own it.
I mean, that's, you know, native peoples haven't been quite as territorial as we are, but it is rather strange that this species should treat this earth that way.
I mean, and you can say, well, it's natural because we've had the ability to do it, but it evidently is whatever Whatever is the right and the wrong of it, it is creating some kind of a ripple which is extending beyond the Earth.
And that's, again, the way I was raised, that would be a very hard thing to believe, that anything that we did to the Earth could have an effect beyond the Earth and bring forth some kind of reaction.
But that seems to be what's going on.
You're on the air with Dr. Mack.
Where are you calling from, please?
San Jose, California.
and beings are coming to the earth in response to the...
that's what they say, I mean, it's what they communicate telepathically in response to the
fact that we seem to have taken it upon ourselves to destroy the earth itself.
All right, on our wild card line, you're on the air with Dr.
Mack, where are you calling from please?
San Jose, California.
San Jose, all right.
Yeah.
John, I sent a videotape of my daughter to Bud Hopkins of her taking the Hopkins image
recognition test.
Oh yeah.
Last time I talked to Bud he said he was going to forward that on to you.
Yeah, I heard that.
I saw that.
I was just wanting your feelings on that and I wanted to see if you could give some advice to parents that are going through this.
Yeah, I mean, I was very moved by the tape.
He showed that at a conference, actually, and then I saw it privately with him.
Yeah, I mean, I saw the reaction of the child when that image appeared.
I mean, she really became very upset when the alien picture... For the audience that doesn't know what he's referring to, Uh, Bud Hopkins has developed, as an artist, has developed ten cards which have pictures of typical things that kids would know.
You know, a boy, a girl, a fireman, a witch, a skeleton, a batman, a ninja turtle, etc.
and an alien.
And, uh, it's very dramatic when you show kids these pictures.
They recognize them and go along merrily.
And then when you show them the abductee children, you show them the alien card and Recoil and suddenly they express an intense emotion, become very distressed, want to cling to their parents and point and say, that's the one.
In other words, that's the one that takes them up into the ship.
And when you see that, you have a lot of trouble attributing this to the imagination.
And I think that the advice to parents I would give is don't dismiss the child who tells you that they've been taken in the night by strange beings up into a Yes.
How is she now?
She's still having bad dreams.
She calls it bad dreams.
to them. Don't tell them it's a nightmare or it's a dream.
Talk to them and take it seriously.
Sir, is this how your daughter reacted to this test?
Yes.
It is. How is she now?
She's still having bad dreams. She calls it bad dreams. She's still having hesitation.
All right. I thank you.
What kind of advice do you offer somebody like that, Doctor?
Well, again, I don't know his community.
What community are you in?
I'm sorry, he's in San Jose.
He's gone now.
San Jose.
Well, again, it depends.
I don't know in San Jose who the pediatricians or child psychiatrists or other child mental health people are and who might be open to taking this seriously.
I have an experience in Cambridge where I It was a child psychiatrist I referred a three-year-old boy to who was having abduction experiences and I wanted him to be open and to take it seriously and he examined this little boy and concluded that he was a healthy little boy except for these experiences.
but because he had no place in his world view for such a matter,
he proceeded to grill the family about other kinds of trauma,
abuse within the family, and it really upset the family.
I hope we're getting to the time when we can accept this, even though we don't understand it and it's mysterious
and it's not supposed to be, at least accept it for what it is and not try to
continuously disturb people by trying to make it something else.
Force it to be something else.
I guess it's our inclination to do that because it frightens us in a way.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. John Mack.
Hi.
Hi.
This is Jim in St.
Louis.
Yes, Jim.
Dr. Mack, I had a couple of questions for you regarding, I believe it was last year, in 1993, there was an idea put forth by Richard Hoagland, a series of meetings.
A summit, if you will, of people doing real research who had amassed lots of information, data, good stuff, numbers.
You came on 48 hours a while back and talked about other dimensions, whereas he has earned the Angstrom Medal for his work in the physics of other dimensionality, and he has raised the charge that repeatedly, consistently, you have, starting with the, I guess it was in late 93, You have decided to shun, uh, to turn away and deny any of the, uh, any of the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, information that they have amassed.
You have stated categorically at one meeting, um, to the other researchers, um, we will never really know, um, and there will never be any hard evidence.
It's also, I think I understand that you were given a grant of $100,000 as well as John Greer by the same person.
And it seems to me, it sounds as though, um, you seem to, somebody is playing politics here, and a short time thereafter, you were politicking against these summit meetings of people with, uh, to doing hard research.
You alright?
I mean, it's simply not true.
I mean, I, I have nothing against doing hard research.
Uh, Richard Hoagland's work is on the faces on Mars, the face on Mars, it doesn't have to do with the abduction story.
I think that the abduction story is elusive, in other words, I think that That to get physical evidence that's going to give us that smoking gun that's going to prove that this exists in our world as we know it, I think it's going to be very difficult.
I'm not against that.
I think it's important to amass as much physical evidence as we can.
It's just simply what the man is saying is not true.
I have not politicked against getting the physical evidence.
I think the physical evidence is extremely important.
It's just very difficult to get hard evidence around the abduction story, and I think that We have to be careful not to call something hard evidence when we're not sure.
All right.
I'd like to ask researchers this question, Dr. Mack.
If you had the smoking gun that you've been talking about that we all want, how hard would you think about the advisability of making it public before you did so?
Well, it depends who makes it public.
I mean, again, you know, what would be a smoking gun?
What would satisfy?
You know, the debunkers say we have to have a physical artifact off of a UFO.
Well, we may not get that.
But if, what I was describing earlier, which was this object that was found in Germany
in the earth, which replicated in its symbols the actual shape of the crop formation.
Now, for that to be acceptable, the pedigree of the object has to be impeccable.
In other words, it has to be studied, it has to be clear that it wasn't made by somebody,
and that would take a great deal of time.
But that object seemed very promising.
It was shown on the television program, Encounters, and it's been studied in Germany,
and yet it's gotten very little attention.
I mean, I think that this thing is gonna move, not just with the physical evidence,
because there's a great deal of resistance to accepting the whole phenomenon,
but also to the state of consciousness of the culture, and there's a willingness of the culture
to acknowledge that something's going on.
I mean, the crop formations is a good example.
I mean, some of them are extraordinarily subtle and interesting and complex and involve this strange laying down of the wheat in Very irregular patterns with the wheat stalks burned and swollen in exactly the same place, all of them.
And yet in spite of these, they can be complex symbols which have fractal-like formations in them and extraordinary beauty.
And yet the British public, for instance, where the most complex ones have been found, is told constantly that this is a hoax and it's not real, and yet the evidence seems, from people like Colin Andrews and George Wingfield, that the evidence is overwhelming, that there's some mysterious intelligence at work here.
But we're not ready to accept it.
So I think that this field will progress as much through our openness to accepting it, the shift in our consciousness around such phenomena, as it will in terms of the physical evidence.
They'll go together.
All right, and then there is this.
For a second, working with the theory there may be a parallel universe, that is, another place in space and time, occupied by beings who are actually on our same physical Earth, but just in a different place or time or dimension.
There would not be a surprise, would there, that any physical recovered object would have properties similar to those on this Earth, because, in fact, it came from this Earth.
Yeah, and I mean, and if, for example, the implants, I mean, so you're gonna, if you, if you're assuming that these beings do in fact exist, and that they, in some form, and that they do in fact do physical things, or place particles in the body, it wouldn't be surprising if these objects were compatible with the body tissues, and that they would not be something that couldn't Be in the human body that would be rejected by the human body or that they if they wanted to disguise themselves, they wouldn't necessarily offer us something that could be readily analyzed as strange and bizarre and that kind of thing.
I mean, it's I mean, the whole thing is very elusive.
It's very complex.
It is mysterious.
It is subtle.
And, you know, we're going to the way I see it is we're going to have to stretch to meet it as much as it's going to end us.
Tell me something, if you could do it all over again, and not take this road, and not begin investigating these things, would you avoid the road?
No, I wouldn't.
I think it's the most interesting story going on on the planet right now, and I guess I often wonder why more people don't jump in.
I suppose it's because it is so elusive, and it doesn't Conform to the requirements of the physical sciences in a way that satisfies people.
It cuts across disciplines.
And yet, I mean, if we are in fact being reached by some other kind of intelligence, I mean, what could be more interesting than that?
What could indeed?
Doctor, we're out of time.
Tell us one more time the name of your book and generally where we can get it.
Oh, the book also.
I wanted, there's something else I wanted to do.
The book is called Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens.
It's in most bookstores.
Also, I would like to hear from people if they want to write to me, if they're still on the line after all this.
All right, quickly give us an address.
Write to me at John Max, Cambridge Hospital, 1493 Cambridge Street, Cambridge, Mass. 02139.
And they should say if they're right, if they want information, that they heard me on this program, so we know that.
All right, give the address once more.
Okay.
It's Dr. John Mack, M.A.C.K., the Cambridge Hospital, 1493 Cambridge Street, Cambridge, Mass., 02139.
Doctor, it has been a pleasure having you on, and I hope that we can do it again.
Yeah, good.
Thanks, Art.
Thanks, John.
Bye-bye.
That's Dr. John Mack.
and uh... i'm sorry we are absolutely out of time only enough time for me to tell you Um, that we would, of course, love to have you order a copy of this program, a very informative program with Dr. Mack, or any other Dreamland program that we have aired in the entire series.
You can do so 24 hours a day by calling Area Code 503-664-7966.
503-664-7966.
Thank you, and good night.
This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human
experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
Please join us again next week at this time for Dreamland.
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