Art Bell

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Aug. 14, 1994 - Art Bell

01:27:25

Dreamland with Art Bell - John Mack - Alien Abductions

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15:14

john mack

59:36

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unidentified		From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now again, here I am.
		My guest is Harvard Professor John Mack, and we'll get back to him in just a moment.
		I would say a million questions to ask.
		We'll never have time for all of them.
		I do promise you we will get the telephone lines open shortly, so stay right where you are.
		Harvard Professor John Mack.
		Dr. Mack.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Mack, what about, we were talking about the way people are affected by this.
		What about the generally deeply religious people?
		How are they affected?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, sometimes at first, like this one man that was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and initially he thought that these were demons, and the people in his community said that they were demons.
		And then he realized that they were something else.
		He wasn't quite sure what, but that it was some kind of actual beings or some kind of actual experience that was occurring in his life, and that he had a relationship with these creatures, and that this was something different than his religious training.
		A lot of times when people are not familiar with the abduction syndrome, religious people will say, well, this is the work of the devil, that God would never appear in such a strange form of humanoid beings, and they get labeled as embodiment of demons.
		But people, there's no particular pattern of religious background associated with this or reaction that's associated with different kinds of religious experience, which is one of the reasons,
		by the way, why the phenomenon seems to me to be so real and so robust, because it kind of takes precedence over people's religious experience.
		In other words, it's not an expression of some kind of religious background.
		It has its own shape and form, which cuts across all religious backgrounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any indication with all of your research about what these beings want or what the focus of their attention is during these abductions?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		The difficulty with that question is that what they, I mean, then you're dealing with sort of alien psychology, but the pattern that tends to occur has to do with some kind of, I don't know what you would call it, but I guess reproductive joining with us, perhaps, is the best way.
		There's over and over and over again, there's a description of sperm being taken from men, ova, eggs from women, reimplantation of a fertilized egg with something done to it through the alien principle, whatever this is, then the fetus removed from the woman later on.
		All of this, again, and then finally the abductee being taken to see these hybrid offspring in the craft.
		So there's some kind of reproductive program here.
		Now, again, I don't take this quite as literally as some of my colleagues do.
		I don't know, again, in what reality this is occurring.
		There is not a documented case of an actual pregnancy that was tested for and then found mysteriously to be removed.
		There's no question there's some physiological changes occur in the women and they experience a fetus being taken.
		No question about that.
		And it's not simply their imagination.
		But I'm very leery about saying that any of these things occur literally in our reality.
		I mean, as you said in the, what do you call it, the program notes for the beginning of your program, even though things are strange and not necessarily in our reality, it doesn't make them any less real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		But they're not necessarily real in the literal physical terms.
		For example, nobody's actually got a picture of these hybrid beings or of the aliens at all, for that matter, that's reliable.
		But to the abductees, and this is not a delusion, their connection with these hybrid beings is very powerful.
		And in fact, one of the most poignant things that a person can go through who works with abductees is to take them through the memory of being taken into the ship and confronted with a hybrid being and told this is yours and they sort of know it's theirs because it sort of looks like them and then asked to hold this creature and to nurture it.
		And they know that they have no control of when they'll ever see it again and yet they feel somehow they are supposed to bond with this creature or it won't do well.
		And it's a very real and disturbing phenomenon.
		A woman may weep on my couch when that is recalled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So again, it has something to do with reproduction, obviously, all right?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		So that's one thing, but that's not the whole story.
		That another very powerful part, and this is, again, there's a fair amount of controversy about this.
		Another powerful part has to do with what might be called ecological messages.
		In other words, that a message comes through to the humans that you humans are treating the earth as if you owned it.
		As if it was here just for you to destroy, to exploit, as a kind of giant marketplace to be consumed, disposed of, and for the purpose of this one species that has developed the technology of agriculture and of city building and mining and basically the power to remove the surface
		of the earth and its resources and destroy the earth as a living system.
		And over and over and over again, the communication comes to us from these beings and it's powerfully felt by the abductees.
		This can't go on.
		In other words, this is not yours to do this with.
		Now...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you get the sense, Doctor, they are saying this to us as our creators or simply as concerned beings?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		There's nothing to suggest that they...
		This is a hard-edged reality that is being smashed into the abductees with tremendous power and which shakes them up enormously.
		And these are not people that necessarily environmentalists, very often uneducated people who hadn't thought about these things.
		And one man said, but I'm just a simple person.
		What am I supposed to do about the Earth?
		And they said, well, you've got to find a way because you love nature and you don't want to see the Earth destroyed.
		And then he's become very, very active and concerned about this.
		I mean, other women that got this message began teaching about ecology in the classroom and getting other teachers to include that in their courses.
		I mean, another man who had a very powerful abduction experience at age nine, which deeply filled his mind with images of the destruction of the Earth, and he's become one of the most extraordinary businessmen in terms of his commitment to the sustainability of the Earth's living system.
		So it's a very real, very powerful part of this thing.
		And often the abductees will, rather than saying this is directly from the Creator, will see the alien beings as emissaries from some divine source.
		Intermediaries is often the word they use.
		They're closer to the source than we are.
		They're often described as, well, one type they call directly light beings.
		They're not all greys.
		They're these taller, more luminous beings that they call light beings.
		But even the little greys themselves are seen as being more closely connected with the source of creation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		I see.
		That almost stops me.
		Let me ask you this.
		What about children versus adults?
		In the cases that you have studied, how many have involved children?
		They are particularly interesting, of course.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've seen about eight or ten children now who have this syndrome, two of them under three, which, by the way, is one of the reasons why it's very difficult to utilize any kind of fancy personality theory to explain the abduction story, because it would be difficult to apply such theories to children as young as two and a half.
		When a little boy, as in that case of mine, says, Mommy, the owls came, because the big eyes often make the children think of owls.
		The owls came in the night, or mommy, the little men came in the night and took me into the sky, and you didn't stop them.
		They say it with fear.
		It's hard to attribute that to some kind of, you know, deep-seated personality problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure is.
		They don't have one yet.
		Well, that's remarkable, and I would guess it would take a very sensitive adult or parent to discern what's happened to this child versus just the usual, you had a bad dream, dear.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but if the child over and over again points to the sky and says, I went up there last night, and, you know, they took me up, and the house went away, you know, and they say that very clearly and vividly, it doesn't sound like a nightmare.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Although I still think most parents would say, well, you just had a bad dream, dear.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, that may be.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it may be that the ones where the parents come to realize that this is something more than a bad dream, maybe the minority, there may be lots of cases out there, even in your radio audience, where the parents haven't realized what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
		Well, all right.
		I would very much like to get to the telephones, which we'll do shortly.
		But Dr. Mack, I guess I'd like to first ask you about your critics and what you would like to say to your critics.
		You're in a very prestigious position.
		You've really got your neck out.
		What made you stick your neck out?
		And now that it's out, how do you handle your critics?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I get criticized from all sorts of directions.
		I mean, the most serious critics are the ones that say that, well, you can't prove this with physical evidence, therefore you can't claim that anything extraordinary is going on here.
		And my answer to that is that we have to expand our notions of evidence.
		My strong suit, as I said earlier, is clinical diagnosis.
		When you have thousands of people reporting in great detail very, very similar accounts, which they themselves are skeptical about, they themselves have not, as the woman that we talked about earlier, have not read about this.
		They are doubters, and they're troubled when they hear that somebody else has had the experience.
		It shocks them.
		When you hear, and the narratives are spoken about reluctantly, when you hear something like that, you know that you're dealing with something that occurred, something that happened to people.
		That's not the way psychosis works, or dreams work, or displacements from other kind of traumas.
		This is something happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, Doctor, if you were asked for evidence, physical evidence, to prove most psychiatric diagnosis, it would not be possible, would it?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		But the thing about this that I've said over and over again, this simply cannot be.
		In other words, in our worldview, the universe cannot contain intelligences that behave like this.
		We don't believe that there are other intelligences other than that which is part of the human imagination.
		So when these beings show up as real and enter our physical world, and actually in some occasions, people are witnessed to be missing during the abductions.
		Children will find their parents missing or parents will find their, well, it works both ways.
		Children will find their parents missing, parents find the children missing, friends find each other gone.
		I mean, there are not a lot of those well-documented that, but there are some.
		Or there are the whole variety of physical findings that we're familiar with of cuts and scoop marks and complex patterned ulcers and other lesions on people's bodies that follow the abduction experiences.
		Those physical findings are important.
		They wouldn't stand up by themselves medically, just on their own.
		But when you combine them with the experiences, you've got a whole, and the fact that this occurs in such young children, and people are of sound mind, you have a whole, and of course what tends to be forgotten is there's a very tight association with UFOs here.
		In other words, the UFO may be observed in the community when the abductee hasn't seen it themselves.
		In other words, I have cases where a neighbor says, you know, there was a funny-looking craft over your house.
		And the person, oh, my God, and they've had an abduction experience.
		Or a famous case up our way where a UFO was tracked by virtually all the media in a northeasterly direction and abductees reporting their experiences that coincided with the media tracking of the UFOs.
		In other words, you've got to take this entire set of phenomena together if you're going to account for this.
		Just to single out some sort of psychological aspect of the person that misses much of the phenomenon.
		And my critics tend to do that.
		In other words, they say, well, I'm just sort of gullible about believing these people.
		Well, it's not a matter of believing them.
		It's a matter of the fact that the most economical explanation of what the person is reporting is that they're telling the truth.
		And even if the truth isn't supposed to be, the fact that something can't exist doesn't keep it from happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		Speaking of that and keeping it from happening, I would think that one thing they would desperately want is to prevent it from occurring again if it scared them or they found it disagreeable, which I assume most do.
		Is there a way, is there any way at all to prevent it?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, And Ruffel and Dr. Easel Brenman and North Carolina people have tried to develop ways of doing that.
		My people have not been too successful with that.
		And also, you know, one of the most curious things about this, and here again, this is a controversial area within the UFO abduction researchers or, you know, investigators, so we say, themselves, is that the phenomenon, in my experience, changes over time.
		In other words, as the person goes deep into their experience and acknowledges the reality of it and demands, as in some cases, a more reciprocal, more equal relationship with the alien beings, the experience changes.
		It becomes more reciprocal.
		There is an exchange of information.
		People often work alongside the aliens, or they feel they're part of some evolutionary process in which this life is being planned for a future after human beings have destroyed the Earth as a living system.
		In other words, they feel they're part of some larger cosmic evolutionary process, and they themselves undergo some kind of spiritual change, and they may participate in this hybrid program much more willingly, and it becomes less of a traumatic kind of experience, hard as that may be to believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of like learning To love the bomb.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I mean, I think that's one of the major questions here.
		Is this simply like that?
		In other words, it's an evil, but we've adapted to it.
		Or is this in some way, by its very nature, a spiritually evolutionary kind of phenomenon?
		Because a lot of people feel that it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like you believe that it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you advise?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I think that so many of the people, when they go deeply into their experience, stay with it, and go through four, five, six, seven, eight sessions, they come to a place where there's very great spiritual growth, deep love between them and the alien beings, which is not just the Stockholm syndrome where you sort of love your captors.
		One of the men in my book, Peter, talked about a lost brotherhood that we and a number of advocates have talked about this, that we derive from a common source.
		We were separated.
		That's maybe why they're humanoid, that we grew separately in some kind of evolution of beings or consciousness from some common divine source, and that this is a coming back together in the context of the ecological crisis on the planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're about at the bottom of the hour, Doctor.
		But is that what you encourage?
		When somebody wants to know how to handle it, do you encourage them to move in that direction?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I don't encourage anything.
		What I do allow the person to do is to have their experience.
		In other words, to be with them, to hold the energy with them, to allow the trauma to unfold, and to go with them wherever they're going to go.
		I have been accused of influencing people, for instance, and a woman that transcribed 2,200 pages of tapes of mine says there's not one sentence influenced anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, we've got to break off there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harvard professor John Mack, right back.
unidentified		With Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is a very unusual opportunity for you to speak with Dr. Harvard professor Dr. John Mack.
		And we're going to go to the telephones in just a moment.
		So if you're ready, I think we're ready.
		Dr. Mack, are you there?
		Yep.
		Good.
		I have one question before we go to the telephones.
		And it is, we know about the abductions that people tell you about and many others about because they come back to tell us.
		But there are, in this country and others, many missing children, many missing adults.
		Do you suppose, Dr. Mack, there are abductions where the person is not returned?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		I just don't think that's the way it works.
		I mean, I haven't studied that, but my sense is that those are more human kidnappings.
		I mean, the because with certain exceptions like the Travis Walton case, which was made into this movie, what is it, Fire in the Sky, that he was gone for five or six days.
		But usually it's a matter of two or three hours.
		It's not a long phenomenon.
		There may be cases where, you know, I did hear of one case where an airplane, a small airplane disappeared out in the Bermuda Triangle area.
		But I mean, you can't really, it didn't go into the water, but, you know, it was taken up.
		But at least that was the recollection of people that studied it.
		But I don't think it's not well corroborated.
		And I don't really believe that there's any evidence that those are abduction cases.
unidentified		This is the end of side one.
		Please leave the cassette exactly where it is.
		Flip it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One last, last question, then we'll go to the phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were faced with an abduction yourself, Dr. Mack, with all you know about abductions, would you submit to it given choice, or would you run like hell?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
		You know, it's a strange thing.
		I mean, where we're located in the culture, I mean, I've never had an abduction experience, and I think that this is so controversial, and I think they're protecting me.
		You know, I think, I mean, if I, in one sense, I'd sort of like to know what it's like so I could authenticate it more easily for people.
		On the other hand, I think probably my credibility would suffer, so I probably am better off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you might submit to it, but not tell anybody.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I suppose.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		If you admit you've had these experiences, then that's just another way of disqualifying you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's exactly right, Doctor.
		Let's try a few telephone calls, see what's out there.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mac.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, Dr. Zock, you have I had a list of the doctors that were on that information, default memory board.
		Some of them worked on Project Pandora, Slammer, and MK Ultra, and some others.
		I was trying to find you to fax you or to fax to the station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, are you wanting a list of researchers, ma'am?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that it?
unidentified		No, I have them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have them?
unidentified		I have them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine Dr. Mack does as well.
		All right, thank you very much.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Harvard Professor John Mack.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you, ma'am?
unidentified		I'm San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Diego.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your question?
unidentified		I wanted to ask him why it is possible to somehow either audio or videotape record people's bedrooms that have repeat experiences and maybe get something on tape or film.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people have tried to do that.
		Their question is, you know, why don't we have more audio tapes and videotapes?
		And people try to do that.
		And, you know, they will report some buzzing sound or beeping sound.
		And then you listen to the audio tape.
		And I'm never quite convinced it's that clear.
		And videotapes, there's one case that Bud Hopkins reports where they had a videotape running all night, and you see people, there's no videotape of the actual abduction,
		but you see somehow the videotape gets turned off and you see the people before the abduction, then you see them in a somewhat different relationship or coming back after the abduction, but you never see anything in between.
		And one of the properties that this phenomenon has, the energy properties, is to affect all kinds of tricks with electronic media.
		I mean, it would be, if they did not vary, whatever this very is, did not want to be discovered, they would have no problem in incapacitating a video camera.
		I mean, that would be child play.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Child's play to them, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mac.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off and tell us where you're calling from, please.
unidentified		I'm calling from the St. Louis area.
		My name is Forrest Crawford.
		Nice to hear you in St. Louis, John.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Pretty good.
unidentified		I've got a question relating to people who have experiences with aliens that are not fearful, for instance, of their experiences, or they come away with more than a traumatic rendition of that experience.
		And then compared to someone else who has an experience, say, with the exact same kind of aliens and the same taxonomy and scenario happens, but then they're very fearful and traumatized.
		Basically, I'm asking for you to comment on what do you think contributes to that.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		There I think that psychology or psychiatry might have something to offer.
		In other words, for example, the last case in my book is the case of a man in his late 30s, a businessman, who has what I would call a very kind of advanced state of consciousness.
		In other words, he's open to anything that's possible.
		He's not someone that has to be in control.
		He's a person that can let in experience.
		And when he was nine years old, a huge UFO illuminated the car that his mother was driving.
		They were coming back from the movies in upstate New York.
		And there were two of his older sister, older brother, younger brother, I'm sorry, were in the car.
		And everybody but him was frightened.
		The mother was terrified, the sister was frightened, the little boy was frightened, and the mother sort of pushed him down, and he was all excited.
		And he accepted this thing, and he felt there was a communication from the beings that were in the craft.
		And in the hypnosis session, he was actually taken up into the craft and given all kinds of information about the future and what he was supposed to do.
		There was nothing traumatic about it at all.
		He was open, receptive.
		He had that kind of consciousness.
		Whereas I think people that are more closed in themselves, more restricted in their minds, more wanting to maintain control of everything around them are more likely to have a traumatic experience.
		It seems to be that there's some relationship between the evolution or state of consciousness of the abductee and the nature of the experience.
unidentified		So it may be their paradigm could be causing their difference in reaction to the experiences.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Something like that.
		Now, there's something in the state of mind, the receptivity, the openness.
		I mean, I've known, for example, a woman who is a leader in understanding shamanism and consciousness change and evolutionary thinking, whose abduction experiences from the beginning have been informational with luminous beings and not with the sort of tough little grays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		Doctor, have you made any determination about how many different types of beings have been described to you?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		To me, about five kinds.
		But there are people that have more information about that than I do.
		Jim Harder, for instance, in the Berkeley area, he knows many more types than I do.
		He's been studying this for 20 years.
		Linda, Linda Howe has described all kinds.
		Mine have been restricted to the little grays, the more taller, luminous beings, the sort of reptilian-looking ones, sometimes preying mantis-like creatures are seen, and then various sort of more human-looking ones that work alongside the other beings on the ships.
		But I mean, I'm not an alien demographer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
		Hello, where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		From Northern California, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		You have a great show tonight.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to ask Dr. Mack if there's any similarities between the people that have been abducted significantly.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's a very good question.
		And the fact that there, as far as we can tell, is not, there have not been any psychological characteristics found is, again, one of the pieces of evidence that we're dealing with something that isn't related to the personality or personal background or conflicts of the individuals.
		There are people that have had very disrupted, unhappy lives or from working-class families, but there are also cases from very wealthy families, professional families where there have been very loving, intact families, as in the case of the businessman that I talked about earlier.
		It was the last chapter in my book.
		There's every type of profession represented, including psychiatrists, diplomats, writers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so it's very diverse.
		What about a mix between male and female?
		Is there Anything noticeable there?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends.
		Thomas Bullard found more men in his survey.
		Other people have found more women.
		It seems fairly equal.
		I think that the men may have somewhat more trouble reporting their experiences because there's a little bit more shame connected with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Barrier, kind of a barrier.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Because to be so helpless, so passively unable to do anything is really terrible for women and men, but it's particularly shameful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Traumatic notion.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		They don't often tell you about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, because man has a kind of a control thing, doesn't he?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		A little more, yeah.
		I mean, to be made helpless, have a cup put over the penis and sperm taken.
		The first case in my book is a man who, when he was 16, he and his friend were in a Nash Rambler and they were sleeping and the beings came and they took him into a woman,
		a female being, took him into a pod, and he described some sort of, you know, in a somewhat macho way, a sexual encounter and then the information that was given to him about the state of the earth and so forth.
		But under hypnosis, this turned out to be much more humiliating.
		It was the more typical cup put over his penis, and the female being in charge sort of watched over this and said, you know, we're not here for sex, and we're here to take your sperm, and he found it really quite humiliating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So he modified the story when he told it.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		When he told the story consciously, which again relates to the question about hypnosis, I mean, here, his conscious recall, because he wanted to represent himself to himself and to me in a more favorable light, was less accurate, in my view, than what came out when he was relaxed under hypnosis and brought forth what was a much more typical account of being forced into this situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The diversity in the stories is in itself revealing, isn't it?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and it tends to counter the notion that hypnosis is distorting because the conscious ego did more distorting in that situation than hypnosis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		All right, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
		Good evening.
		No, I guess you're not.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, sir?
unidentified		Missoula.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Missoula, Montana.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Have you ever considered the possibility that these creatures are not aliens, but maybe they're from the future?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, thank you.
		And the dimensional question, you mentioned the possibility of other dimensions earlier.
		What is your thinking on this?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that it's a good question.
		There's no reason to believe that entities, beings, that have the technology to have UFOs that can flick on and off the radar screen, that can go 7,000 miles an hour in one direction, make a sharp right-angled turn, and with no skid, in other words, they've overcome many ideas we have about gravity, and that they can float people through walls, evidently.
		And there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't be able to move through time in some way.
		That's certainly a possibility.
		So what was the other part of your question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's gone now, but that was the basis of his question.
		Could they be from the future, I believe he said?
		And I added other dimensions.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the other dimension.
		That was your question.
		Yeah.
		I mean, this whole dimension thing is, I mean, increasingly physicists are talking, you know, we talk about string theory and talk about, you know, there's a physicist, Ron Bryan, who sees in subatomic particles that you can't account for all of them within the physics, the subatomic physics that we have in the four-dimensional universe, that we need additional dimensions.
		And that there, Fred Allen Wolf has, there's a guy named Vernansky who's written a book about other dimensions that these beings could come from.
		That was originally Jacques Velet's idea, that they exist in a parallel universe, that they pass into our universe.
		Again, that would tend to go against trying to locate that they're from this or that planet or this or that star in one or another galaxy, that it may be that they exist in some dimension that we don't even understand.
		Abductees will often say, by the way, during their experiences, as they recall their experiences, this is not occurring in space-time as I know it.
		And it's hard for them to, they become, they find that very difficult to put into words, but the message is consistent, that this is not happening in our space-time universe to them.
		That one woman put it, all time dimensions collapse into one time, or something like that.
		In other words, that we don't have language for it, but that the altered state alters the sense, as they recall the experience, alters the sense of space and time.
		And I think that's a much underappreciated fact.
		We're too ready to try to see this thing literally as occurring in our physical universe rather than expanding our notions of reality to other dimensions, other possible universes that are not simply our physical four-dimensional.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, while we're on that subject, I interviewed Mr. Monroe from the Monroe Institute a few weeks ago, and he talks a great deal about out-of-body travel, which is clearly some sort of altered state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I wonder if it has any relationship to either the altered states that we've been examining tonight or whether the process, the out-of-body process, also has Some relationship to what we're discussing.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		The argument against that that Bud Hopkins and others have used is that the people are really gone.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it's not just an out-of-body experience, as he puts it, it's an out-of-the-house experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're physically gone.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		They're physically gone.
		But I don't know that it's either or.
		Sometimes people will experience themselves floating above their bodies or that they've entered the ship, but they're not sure the body is left.
		And there may be gradations in between, that there is a separation of consciousness and the body.
		That has been the experience of a number of people.
		Now, again, all kinds of tricks of consciousness seem to occur in this phenomenon.
		And it's not just, I don't believe, and again, much more research needs to be done.
		I don't believe it's simply literally that the person is physically removed.
		I think there may be something to be learned from the out-of-body, you know, out-of-body studies.
		But I don't know more about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
		Good evening.
		Where are you calling from now?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		This is Bryce and Wichita Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Bryce.
unidentified		Hi.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Mack.
unidentified		It's a pleasure to talk with you.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I remember reading a long time ago, and I've been trying to find it, Carl Jung kind of prophesied that there'd be a big surgence of flying saucer sightings and contactees and such.
		And he attributed more to spiritual beings than he did to aliens.
		Yeah, he wrote a book.
		This was before the abduction syndrome had been identified, but he wrote about flying saucers and saw them as what he calls psychoid phenomenon, something which exists in the psycho-spiritual realm but shows up in the physical realm and is perceived by people.
		It breaks down the barrier between the spiritual, the psychological, and the physical.
		It's a crossover phenomenon.
		And I think there's a lot to that.
		I think one of the most extraordinary aspects of this, and I think one of the things that's kind of gotten, going back to my critics, we've gotten people so mad is that there's kind of a, we've created a kind of sacred barrier between the spiritual domain and the physical domain, as if they should never meet.
		It's just kind of like separation of church and state.
		In fact, I've even been accused of breaking down the distinction of church and state and opening the doors to fascism by my saying that this is both spiritual and physical at the same time.
		In other words, that this does that, it crosses that sacred barrier of something that should be in the unseen realm, should be in the spiritual realm, should be mythic, should be beings that are part of the imagination or that we would study in departments of anthropology, but that it shows up in this hard-edged way in our physical world, that's a crime against humanity from the standpoint of the Western worldview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think you're beginning to cross that barrier, Doctor, because of hard evidence in your research or because of a kind of desperation to explain the inexplicable?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I think that we simply don't have another way to think about it.
		In other words, that you're dealing with something that does show up in the physical world.
		I mean, we do have physical evidence.
		It's not as good as the critics would like.
		But then, you know, I want to say something about that.
		You know, critics keep demanding, you know, good physical evidence.
		But, you know, I've had people admit that they just wouldn't matter what physical evidence we had.
		They just wouldn't believe it because it can't be.
		In other words, that if a piece of a UFO were found in a field by a teenage boy, they'd examine the teenage boy, find him psychotic and unreliable, and destroy the pedigree.
		They actually did find, you know, in the crop formation in Germany, a plate that was dug up in the crop formation, which had all the same symbols on it that the crop formation itself had.
		And this plate has been studied, analyzed, found to have metals in it that are peculiar and haven't been found anyplace else.
		And that has not gotten the publicity that you would think that it had, because it is the smoking gun.
		It is the physical artifact that they're all asking for.
		So what they do in that case is just not pay that much attention to it.
		I mean, that would be the exact thing that they're asking for, the critics asked for.
		But, you know, if we're not ready for it, it's like the meteorites.
		The scientist who discovered meteorites in Europe repressed the evidence for 39 years because he thought he would be ridiculed if he said that objects could fall from the sky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Doctor, we're going to pause there.
		We're at the top of the hour, so rest for about six to seven minutes.
		When we come back, we're going to tell people how to get your book, all right?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dr. Mack, stay right there.
		Professor, Harvard Professor John Mack is my guest.
		Fascinating session.
		Still plenty of time to get in.
		If you would like to, we've got another hour to go.
		You're listening to a Sunday evening dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now, toll-free, at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, once again, here I am.
		My guest is Harvard Professor John Mack, and we're talking about human abductions by aliens.
		And we'll get back to Dr. Mack in just a moment.
		Would also like to tell everybody out there, you can get a copy of tonight's Dreamland program or any Dreamland program in the entire series by calling Area Code 503-664-7966.
		Let me give that to you one more time.
		To obtain a copy of this program or any Dreamland segment, you can call Area Code 503-664-7966.
		Back now to Harvard Professor John Mack.
		Professor Mack, what is the title of your book?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		It's called Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Pretty straightforward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where, I take it it is a compilation of a lot of the research.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the first two chapters are overviews of the phenomenon as I and others have described it, both historically and in terms of what an actual abduction experience is like.
		And then there are 13 cases that I've seen that illustrate various aspects of the phenomenon.
		The cases tend to get more complex and deeper into the meaning of the phenomenon as one goes through the book.
		And the last chapter is kind of a blue sky look at what the whole thing might mean, what its implications are for psychology, for the human future, for ecology, for our spiritual development, that kind of thing, which is not factual necessarily, but derives from the cases themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who publishes?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Scribner's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where can folks get it?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope they can get it in any bookstore in their town.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		If they can't, I hope they'll tell their book dealers to try to get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's fairly widely available.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Very good.
		I think anybody who's been abducted or is concerned about the phenomenon would certainly go out and get it.
		I'm sure it's, and I'd very much like to read it myself.
		I have not yet, Dr. Mack.
		Hi there.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Professor Mack.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		This is Fritz from Phoenix Calling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Fritz.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Mine is more like a statement.
		In the early 40s, Dr. Wilhelm Reich, a scientist way ahead of its time, was researching cosmic energy.
		He was finding an energy field called organ energy.
		Now, the government destroyed his life work, put the books away, put him in prison where Dr. Reich mysteriously died.
		Now today, with the global shrinking constantly, the information is exchanged faster than ever.
		We are on a higher level of understanding.
		Now, Dr. Meck, the ball is in your court.
		Run with it.
		The reward will be unimaginable.
		Do what Dr. Reich couldn't do.
		Well, thank you.
		I mean, it's not as if there isn't an awful lot of...
		Mind you, that doesn't mean we understand it.
		That doesn't mean we know what these energies are or what these beings are or what their ultimate purpose is.
		it seems to me that that it's worth looking at why this creates so much controversy why on the one hand people deny it why they want to find anything but those what Well, the unknown is always threatening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Always a little frightening.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		But what makes this more unknown than anything else?
		I mean, we've never really understood life itself or why we're here or what death is like or what happens beyond the Earth.
		I mean, it seems to me that if we're connected with other intelligences in the universe, that isn't any more frightening than being totally isolated in a dead universe, which is what is nothing but energy and matter.
		I mean, it seems to me that it would be a subject of fascination.
		I just wonder why there is such a terrific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what kind of answers do you come up with?
		Is it religious-based?
		Is it some other part of our social structure?
		Where?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I think it has to do with what you were talking about earlier, the need to feel that we're somehow in control.
		I sometimes call it the astrodome mentality, you know, that we can somehow wall ourselves off from nature and control nature and that we're the top of the intelligence pecking order in the cosmos.
		And not only does this show that we're not at the top, that there's other intelligences probably far greater than our own in certain capacities anyway, but they can also do with us what they will, take us against our will, and show us that we're not in control.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe one could suggest, Doctor, there's not enough evidence to support that egotistical sort of narrow view either.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in other words, that we are alone, that we are the only intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an egotistical sort of protective sort of view, and there's really not enough evidence to support that either, and rarely do I hear it challenged that way.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I think that's well put.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the burden of proof is always put on somebody that says that there is other intelligence in the universe, whereas that seems to me it ought to be the other way around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, or at least equally challenged.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I think that an I don't know attitude might be the healthiest one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Professor John Mack High.
unidentified		I would like Dr. Mack to describe the circumstances of how he first became associated with financier Lawrence Rockefeller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		How about that?
		Are you wrapped up with Rocky?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I know Lawrence Rockefeller.
		I mean, I've known him for a number of years through known other members of his family.
		He's been interested in work that I've done and been to meetings.
		You know, that he's, you know, that's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you where that goes.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do, Dr. Mack.
		Anytime Mr. Rockefeller is mentioned, it's always with respect to a giant conspiracy theory.
		And so I'm sure they're kind of wondering if you're not some sort of foot soldier in this new one-world order business that they suspect Mr. Rockefeller is wrapped up in.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Is that the idea?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm sure it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what do you say to that?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I just don't know of any such, I'm not familiar with any such conspiracy.
		I mean, Mr. Rockefeller is somebody that has been interested in human consciousness, human development, quite a progressive, unusual thinker, but I don't know of his being part of any.
		I know he's interested in the UFO phenomenon, but I don't know of any of his being part of any kind of conspiracy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mac.
unidentified		Yes, I have two questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, where are you?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Oregon.
unidentified		Oregon, all right.
		First of all, anecdotally, there's been talk about implants made by these beings into human affectees either in their ears or their nose.
		I was wondering if the doctor has learned anything about that in his studies.
		And the second question is...
		Okay, is that better?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, better.
unidentified		Okay, turned around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, implants and what else?
unidentified		And also, anecdotally, all of the abductions, at least what I hear about, come from people that are either in their cars on a lonely road at night or are in their bedrooms at night and never just off of a busy street corner or something like that.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		What does the doctor say about that?
		I'm going to try to answer the two questions together because they both have to do with the matter of subtlety.
		The implants, I mean, there was a time when I was first starting out, and I heard with this, it was about five years ago, and I heard about these implants, and then I got, recovered a wiry object from the nose of a woman I was working with, and I heard of several other implants that had been found from, like you say, from people's orifices of people's bodies.
		And I thought, wow, this is going to give us that smoking gun.
		It's going to prove that something bizarre is going on here.
		And there'll be some unusual elements that will be found in strange combinations that are not found on Earth and that kind of thing.
		Well, actually, that has not proven to be the case.
		There have been several implants found following abduction, small objects that have been looked at carefully.
		David Pritchard, MIT, has examined one.
		But they haven't been shown to contain any unusual combinations of elements.
		Again, whatever is at work here is not handing us a smoking gun.
		It's a subtle phenomenon.
		And I think that applies to the other question as well.
		That you don't have a situation, and he's quite correct, where you and I are walking along the street, a UFO hovers over the street 100, 200 yards away, and zap, several pedestrians walking along are floated up in the sky before us and all of downtown Boston, Las Vegas, or whatever.
		That does not happen.
		He's quite correct.
		It happens.
		Usually there have been cases where more than one person has been taken.
		It's a quite well-known case in Nebraska where several people were taken from an amusement park.
		It's not always cars.
		It's not always from the bedroom.
		There's been children that Bud Hopkins has described taken from schoolyards.
		One woman I've talked with myself was taken off a snowmobile in the field.
		I mean, there are unusual situations, but they tend to be relatively difficult to get a vivid documentation of the abduction itself.
		In other words, it tends to occur with a certain amount of disguise.
		And I answer the two questions together because I think it points to the fact that the phenomenon has a good deal of subtlety.
		In other words, it doesn't satisfy us in the kind of gross material way we want.
		And I don't know the reason for that.
		I think it's there.
		There's evidence for it.
		There's a lot that can't be explained.
		But it's not as if a fleet of UFOs came down over Washington and just floated up to Congress or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Very good.
		That's a good answer.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
		Where are you calling from, please?
		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mac.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, ma'am?
unidentified		This is Carolyn from San Diego.
		Okay.
		I'd like to ask Dr. Mack if anybody he has worked with has experienced something called sleep paralysis.
		Do you know what I'm talking about?
		Yep.
		Is that pretty common with people who've been abducted?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, this sleep paralysis is Associated often with a syndrome called narcolepsy, where the person is body is paralyzed or they suddenly fall asleep unexpectedly, they can't stay awake.
		And you know, in certain instances, these individuals do have some aspects that look like sleep paralysis, that they wake up and they can't move, but there's a whole set of other phenomena that go along with that.
		In other words, in these situations, you have these little beings with the dark eyes around the bed that are consistently described, the person whose experiences being floated down the hall, through the wall, up into the sky, procedures done in the UFO, and these stories quite consistently told.
		And I've talked, there's a Dr. Anch in the St. Louis area who's an expert on sleep paralysis, and I spoke with him about this, and I have spoken with other experts who actually study sleep paralysis, and they say that it doesn't contain all the dimensions that are found in the abduction syndrome.
		So it's one, often we find that, you know, that somebody will take one aspect of this whole syndrome and say, well, maybe that's what it's about.
		You know, for example, that UFOs are sort of room-like, so maybe this is a recollection of a birth experience or something of that kind.
		Or is it take one aspect and then make a whole theory out of it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Calling from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle, yes, ma'am.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Dr. Mack.
		Hi.
		Hi.
		Hey, this whole thing is totally weird, right?
		But I was just wondering, I want to ask Dr. Mack, what is, if you can pinpoint the single most weird thing that stands out in your mind about this whole abduction phenomenon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		The single most weird thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The weirdest aspect or strangest aspect of it, I suppose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seems the whole thing is strange, but is there anything that stands out?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's the capacity of these beings, whatever they are, to create all kinds of confusing theatrical elements.
		As people describe on the ship, suddenly a part of the ship will turn into a theater or a forest, or they'll find themselves walking down long corridors.
		That the capacity of this intelligence, whatever it is, to manufacture experiences for people, which we cannot tell whether they, in what dimension they are, what reality they are.
		The inside of a ship can turn into something much larger, much smaller.
		It's the degree to which this seems to be able to play with space, time, physical reality that I find extraordinary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Mack, this may be off-topic, or there may be a relationship.
		A lot of people doing research into near-death experiences, a lot of testimony from physicians saying, well, look, this whole story about going down a long dark corridor toward a point of light and all the rest of it is easily explainable as the brain dies, the synapses start dying from the outside toward the center, and therefore the light is toward the center.
		And they try to explain it in that manner.
		One, do you see any relationship between NDE and the possibility of another dimension with regard to these aliens?
		And how do you feel about that physical explanation of the phenomenon?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it would be hard to...
		reported what the surgeons were wearing, reported what was on the instruments in the anesthesia instruments in the OR, or they could even see what was going on down the corridor with relatives of theirs.
		I mean, the near-death experience has a whole lot of elements to it, which are difficult to explain purely in terms of the phenomenon of the dying brain.
		And I mean, the consistency with which people report complex, extremely powerful, vivid encounters with light and with relatives and with beings down this tunnel, which they experience as altogether in a reality, I don't know.
		It's just why would the dying brain necessarily throw off that kind of experience?
		We don't know, we don't have much other evidence of a dying brain creating that kind of complex and replicable experience.
		So I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess I'm reaching out looking for some commonality in these varying described altered states.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if there is any commonality in them.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that they all involve the question of whether there can be a consciousness separated from the body or the brain or whether there can be experiences that are not simply explainable in the ordinary physiological way.
		There's what Dr. Stanislav-Groff calls transpersonal experiences where our nature or our being or our existence can travel outside of our brains or outside of our present limits of reality.
		I mean, I think it has that element in common.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Mack, what do you think, as you look down the research road, will finally put this thing in a box so that we can understand it.
		Will anything ever do that?
		Will it be physical evidence?
		Or do you think that these alternative areas of research will finally prove to be the key to unlock all this?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, that's a very good question.
		I think we need to study how this shows up in other countries, how widespread it is.
		I think if we create an atmosphere in which people feel free to speak up, to report their experiences increasingly, where abductees are not so afraid as they are now that they're going to lose their jobs or be humiliated, that will help because we'll have more cases.
		I think if I'd like to see many more clinicians, psychiatrists come into this.
		I'm increasingly getting letters from psychiatrists and psychologists who have cases and who are beginning to recognize this and not try to put people into particular pigeonholes.
		I think we need to establish once and for all that if that can be done, that there is no obvious psychological explanation for this by doing careful personality assessments.
		Some of that has been done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would think by the time a clinician comes to you, for example, he would be sort of at his last hope.
		In other words, he would have reached out to every other conventional psychiatric road that he could and then be coming to you as a final desperate move.
		Is that typical?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I often do see clinicians who begin to suspect that they can't explain their cases.
		But until recently, it was more likely to be that the person themselves would leave a psychologist that was trying to put them into a particular category.
		Very often, because there is this sexual reproductive aspect to the encounter, a lot of times the mental health professional will be looking for a history of sexual abuse, which can be doubly harmful because it not only is barking up the wrong tree sometimes,
		but it also will tend to sow distrust between family members unnecessarily.
		So that can be a particular problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Dr. Mack, hold on.
		We'll be back to you.
		We're at the half hour mark.
		You're listening to Dreamland.
		My guest is Harvard Professor John Mack.
		Remember to get a copy of this program or any other Dreamland program.
		Call area code 503-664-7966, 24 hours a day.
unidentified		Call area code 503-664-7966, 24 hours a day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Freeline, you're on the air with Dr. Mack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		I'm calling from KBI in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		Dr. Mack, has any abductee that you've ever discussed abduction with ever told you that a medical doctor has advised them that they, during a skull x-ray or isotope scan, had had laser surgery on their skull without?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I've certainly had situations where somebody had, say, an implant in the nose, or like one man who had a very major kind of cut in his nose following an abduction, and then it healed up in a couple of days.
		And a man looked in his nose and said, there must be some extraordinary surgery went on here.
		You know, I mean, this was healed up so fast.
		Or people will be asked, have you had any surgery, in other cases, have you had any surgery done to your nose or to your mouth?
unidentified		I had this kind of question asked me in 1976 during the isotope scan, and I had no skin scar, but I was shown an incision that the doctor claimed was a, or shown, you know, the isotope scan thing on the whatever those white things was during the scan.
		That I had the size of about a half dollar circle on my right skull.
		And I told him I'd never had any skull surgery.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Have you had experiences?
unidentified		I've had a lot of experiences.
unidentified		I'm afraid I'm an absolute.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if you are yours, but I certainly wouldn't have.
unidentified		I've seen a man of light, I've had miracles, you know, where I've...
		On January the 1st of 1957, he awakens me in my apartment.
		I had a child dying in children's hospital and another child down with a coupe, and I was sleeping in the living room.
		He was 6'8 because he touched the door jamb, and he filled the whole apartment with light.
		Obviously, I recognized him because I said to him, I can't go with you now.
		Can't you see my children are both sick?
		He just disappeared, and my ex-husband, my former spouse, jumped up and asked me how I turned on and off the lights in the entire apartment.
		And I said I didn't.
		And I told him about the man of light.
		He thought I was crazy.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I was referring to earlier as the taller, luminous beings that some people have experience with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it you don't think that these aliens are dangerous to us, that they're basically benign, Doctor?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't know.
		I mean, you know, one of the difficulties for us human beings is we tend to be rather species-centered, you know, in a kind of egotistical way.
		We were talking about that earlier.
		And I think it might be that they are, from our point of view, neither benign nor malignant.
		It may be that we are in some way so radically out of balance with nature that this involves, as one of the abductees put it, some kind of cosmic correction which we find unpleasant and which is inconsiderate from the human point of view.
		But when you consider the fact that human beings are the cause of the elimination of countless living species every day That we live and breathe, I mean, eliminate completely other species, the fact that we would be in some ways inconvenienced by another force that's involved in some sort of cosmic correction is hardly of great moment
		compared to the destruction that we bring on the earth in any given day.
		It's a fear as opposed to other species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, it brings on this question.
		Would it be your view that our industrial society has gone the wrong route in development?
		In other words, in developing ourselves the way we have industrially.
		Have we done it the wrong way?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't, it's a little hard for me to get into this sort of kind of pious quarterbacking kind of role.
		I mean, but when you think about it, there is something a little bit bizarre about, you know, if you step back, and I think one of the things that studying this phenomenon has allowed me to do is to kind of step back and look at ourselves a little more objectively.
		And the idea that one species should appropriate to itself the entire earth and divide it up into sections and call those countries and lands and claim that we own it.
		I mean, that's, you know, native peoples haven't been quite as territorial as we are, but it is rather strange that this species should treat this earth that way.
		I mean, and you can say, well, it's natural because we've had the ability to do it, but it evidently is, whatever is the right and the wrong of it, it is creating some kind of a ripple which is extending beyond the earth.
		And that's, again, the way I was raised, that would be a very hard thing to believe, that anything that we did to the earth could have an effect beyond the earth and bring forth some kind of reaction.
		But that seems to be what's going on.
		In other words, it seems that these beings or these species or whatever it is, the various alien beings are coming to the earth in response to the that's what they say.
		I mean, it's what they communicate telepathically in response to the fact that we seem to have taken it upon ourselves to destroy the earth itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On our wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Mac.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		San Jose, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Jose, all right?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		John, I sent the videotape of my daughter to Bud Hopkins of her taking the Hopkins image recognition test.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And last time I talked to Bud, he said he was going to forward that on to you.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard that.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I saw that.
unidentified		I was just wanting your feelings on that, and I wanted to see if you can give some advice to parents that are going through this.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, yeah, I mean, I was very moved by the tape.
		He showed that at a conference, actually, and then I thought privately with him.
		Yeah, I mean, I saw the reaction of the child when that image appeared.
		I mean, she really became very upset when the alien picture.
		For the audience that doesn't know what he's referring to, Bud Hopkins has developed 10 cards which have pictures of typical things that kids would know.
		You know, a boy, a girl, a fireman, a witch, a skeleton, a Batman, a ninja turtle, etc.
		and an alien.
		And it's very dramatic when you show kids these pictures, they recognize them and go along merrily.
		And then when you show them the, you have the beach or you show them the alien card and they recoil and suddenly they express intense emotion, become very distressed, want to cling to their parents and point and say, that's the one.
		In other words, that's the one that takes them up into the ship.
		And when you see that, you have a lot of trouble attributing this to the imagination.
		And I think that the advice to parents I would give is don't dismiss the child who tells you that they've been taken in the night by strange beings up into a planet, or into the sky rather, or into a ship.
		Listen to them.
		Don't tell them it's a nightmare or it's a dream.
		Talk to them and take it seriously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, is this how your daughter reacted to this test?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How is she now?
unidentified		She's still having bad dreams.
		She calls it bad dreams.
		She's still having visitations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of advice do you offer somebody like that, Doctor?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, I don't know his community.
unidentified		What community are you in?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, he's in San Jose.
		He's gone now.
		San Jose.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, again, it depends.
		I don't know in San Jose who the pediatricians or child psychiatrists or other child mental health people are and who might be open to taking this seriously.
		I had an experience in Cambridge where there was a child psychiatrist I referred a three-year-old boy to who was having abduction experiences.
		And I wanted him to be open and to take it seriously.
		And he examined this little boy and concluded that he was a healthy little boy except for these experiences.
		But because he had no place in his worldview for such a matter, he proceeded to grill the family about other kinds of trauma, abuse within the family, and it really upset the family.
		I hope we're getting to the time when we can accept this, even though we don't understand it and it's mysterious and it's not supposed to be, at least accept it for what it is and not try to continuously disturb people by trying to make it something else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Force it to be something else.
		I guess it's our inclination to do that because it frightens us in a way.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Dr. John Mack.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Jim in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Jim.
unidentified		Dr. Mack, I had a couple questions for you regarding, I believe it was last year, 93, there was an idea put forth by Richard Hoagland, a series of meetings, a summit, if you will, of people doing real research who had amassed lots of information, data, good stuff, numbers.
		You came on 48 Hours a while back and talked about other dimensions, whereas he has earned the Angstrom Medal for his work in the physics of other dimensionality.
		And he has raised the charge that repeatedly, consistently, you have, starting with the, I guess it was in late 93, you have decided to shun, to turn away and deny any of the information that they have amassed.
		You had stated categorically at one meeting to the other researchers, we will never really know and there will never be any hard evidence.
		It's also, I think I understand that you were given a grant of $100,000 as well as John Greer by the same person.
		And it seems to me, it sounds as though you seem that somebody is playing politics here.
		And a short time thereafter, you were politicking against these summit meetings of people to doing hard research.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's simply not true.
		I mean, I have nothing against doing hard research.
		Richard Hoagland's work is on the faces on Mars, the face on Mars.
		It doesn't have to do with the abduction story.
		I think that the abduction story is elusive.
		I think that to get physical evidence that's going to give us that smoking gun that's going to prove that this exists in our world as we know it, I think it's going to be very difficult.
		I'm not against that.
		I think it's important to amass as much physical evidence as we can.
		It's just simply what the man is saying is not true.
		I have not politic against getting the physical evidence.
		I think the physical evidence is extremely important.
		It's just very difficult to get hard evidence around the abduction stories.
		And I think that we have to be careful not to call something hard evidence when we're not sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'd like to ask researchers this question, Dr. Mack.
		If you had the smoking gun that you've been talking about that we all want, how hard would you think about the advisability of making it public before you did so?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends who makes it public.
		I mean, again, you know, what would be a smoking gun?
		What would satisfy?
		I mean, you know, the debunkers say, well, we have to have a physical artifact off of the UFO.
		Well, we may not get that.
		But if what I was describing earlier, which was this object that was found in Germany in the earth, which replicated in its symbols the actual shape of the crop formation.
		Now, for that to be acceptable, the pedigree of the object has to be impeccable.
		In other words, it has to be studied.
		It has to be clear that it wasn't made by somebody.
		And that would take a great deal of time.
		But that object seems very promising.
		It was shown on the television program Encounters, and it's been studied in Germany, and yet it's gotten very little attention.
		I think this thing is going to move not just with the physical evidence, because there's a great deal of resistance to accepting the whole phenomenon, but also to the state of consciousness of the culture, the willingness of the culture to acknowledge that something's going on.
		I mean, the crop formations is a good example.
		I mean, some of them are extraordinarily subtle and interesting and complex and involve this strange laying down of the wheat in very regular patterns with the wheat stalks burned and swollen at exactly the same place, all of them.
		And yet, in spite of these, they can be complex symbols which have fractal-like formations in them and extraordinary beauty.
		And yet, the British public, for instance, where the most complex ones have been found, is told constantly that this is a hoax and it's not real.
		And yet the evidence seems from people like Colin Andrews and George Wingfield that the evidence is overwhelming that there's some mysterious intelligence at work here.
		But we're not ready to accept it.
		So I think that this field will progress as much through our openness to accepting it, the shift in our consciousness around such phenomena, as it will in terms of the physical evidence.
		They'll go together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and then there is this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For a second, working with the theory there may be a parallel universe, that is another place in space and time, occupied by beings who are actually on our same physical earth, but just in a different place or time or dimension, there would not be a surprise, would there, that any physical recovered object would have properties similar to those on this earth because, in fact, it came from this earth.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I mean, and if, for example, the implants, I mean, you're going to, if you're assuming that these beings do in fact exist and that they in some form and that they do in fact do physical things or place particles in the body,
		it wouldn't be surprising if these objects were compatible with the body tissues, that they would not be something that couldn't be in the human body, that would be rejected by the human body, or that if they wanted to disguise themselves, they wouldn't necessarily offer us something that could be readily analyzed as strange and bizarre and that kind of thing.
		I mean, the whole thing is very elusive.
		It's very complex.
		It is mysterious.
		It is subtle.
		And, you know, we're going to the way I see it is we're going to have to stretch to meet it as much as it's going to hand us any easy answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you could do it all over again and Not take this road and not begin investigating these things, would you avoid the road?
john mack ▲ ● ▼		No, I wouldn't.
		I mean, I think it's the most interesting story going on on the planet right now.
		And I guess I often wonder why more people don't jump in.
		I suppose it's because it is so elusive, and it doesn't conform to the requirements of the physical sciences in a way that satisfies people.
		It cuts across disciplines.
		And yet, I mean, if we are, in fact, being reached by some other kind of intelligence, I mean, what could be more interesting than that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What could indeed?
		Doctor, we're out of time.
		Tell us one more time the name of your book and generally where we can get it.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the book also.
		There's something else I wanted to do.
		The book is called Abduction, Human Encounters with Aliens.
		It's in most bookstores.
		Also, I would like to hear from people if they want to write to me, if they're still on the line after all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, quickly give us an address.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Write to me at John Mack, Cambridge Hospital, 1493 Cambridge Street, Cambridge Mass, 02139.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		And they should say if they write that if they want information or that they heard me on this program, so we know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, give the address once more.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		It's Dr. John Mack, M-A-C-K, the Cambridge Hospital, 1493 Cambridge Street, Cambridge Mass, 02139.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, it has been a pleasure having you on, and I hope that we can do it again.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, good.
john mack ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, John.
		Bye-bye.
		That's Dr. John Mack.
		And I am sorry, we are absolutely out of time.
		Only enough time for me to tell you that we would, of course, love to have you order a copy of this program, a very informative program with Dr. Mack or any other Dreamland program that we have aired in the entire series.
		You can do so 24 hours a day by calling area code 503-664-7966.
		503-664-7966.
		Thank you, and good night.
unidentified		Squeak
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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