Art Bell

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July 17, 1994 - Art Bell

01:33:04

Dreamland with Art Bell - Robert Monroe - OBE's

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20:31

robert monroe

49:37

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		This is Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, everybody.
		This should be quite the program.
		As promised, we will have Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute here.
		What an honor that is.
		Dr. Monroe, actually Robert Monroe, just Robert Monroe, coming up next.
		He'll tell us about the Monroe Institute.
		Have you ever wondered about travel?
		Not the type you take on a domestic airline, but the type you might take from your own body.
		Robert Monroe did.
		He'll tell you about it coming up.
		You're listening to Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Well, good evening, everybody.
		The Monroe Institute travels from the body.
		The Monroe Institute was founded by Robert Monroe, a former broadcasting executive who began to undergo spontaneous experiences in 1958 that drastically altered his life.
		Unpredictably and without willing it, Mr. Monroe found himself leaving his physical body via a second body to explore locales unbounded by conventional concepts of time and space.
		He has documented these experiences in Journeys Out of the Body, a Double Day book in 1971, published in eight languages worldwide, and in Far Journeys, Doubleday 1985.
		The Monroe Institute had its origins in the research and development division of Interstate Industries Incorporated, which began investigating methods and techniques of accelerated learning in the late 1950s.
		That investigation led to some remarkable discoveries that dealt with the very nature of human consciousness.
		As a result, the basis of the research effort was expanded considerably.
		In 1971, the Institute was created to supplement that research effort.
		As a school, the Monroe Institute is composed of two divisions, and we will hear from spokesmen of both.
		The Education Division, which conducts classes and seminars and disseminates tapes and other materials in direct application of the methods it has developed.
		And the Research Division, which conducts ongoing studies in enhancement of human consciousness and the development of methods and techniques that may result in practical use thereof.
		And that is from a Monroe Institute pamphlet.
		And here all the way from Faber, Virginia, is Robert Monroe.
		Mr. Monroe, welcome to the program.
		It is an honor.
		Well, I'm glad to be here, sir.
		Gee, do we have more than one person on the phone line here?
		Because it's very weak.
		It's very weak?
		Very weak, yes.
unidentified		Well, we can take one out and see what happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're going to have to do that because I can't hear you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Is it better now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a little bit better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you now the only phone line on?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm the only phone line on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that is much, much better.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Much better.
		Anyway, welcome.
		It sure is an honor to have you here, Mr. Monroe.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know what's going to happen after all that meteor stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, isn't that quite the occurrence?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That was very, very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, if you would please take us all back and tell us how this began for you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's an odd thing because it was unexpected is the better way to put it.
		Back in 1956, my company was looking for some diversity type of things to do, so we got the idea that perhaps we could in turn help people learn during sleep.
		So being a specialist in sound, because of all of our company history, we in turn obviously began to use sound.
		First thing we found out in order to help people to get to sleep, we've got to get them to sleep.
		So what we did was develop some particular sound waveforms that helped people go easily into sleep.
		And then we were beginning to test that after that.
		I being one of the chief subjects, oh, that we started in 1956.
		And in 1958, I began to notice some odd effects of it.
		And it was a funny kind of vibration.
		That's what it felt like, except it wasn't a physical body vibration.
		And I went to my favorite doctors and so on, and they said, oh, no, you're fine.
		Don't worry.
		And so I finally had the courage to wait to see what this, instead of forcing myself out of this vibration, I finally said, well, if it's going to kill me, I'll let it kill me.
		I'll have to try it.
		So I stayed with it, and after about five minutes, it faded out.
		And so, therefore, I tolerated it when it went from, and it didn't happen every night, maybe once or twice a week or something like that.
		So I would wait till it completed, and then after it was through or faded out, well, then I'd go to sleep.
		And on one fateful night in September of 58, I was on a Friday night waiting for this to fade away so that I could go to sleep calmly.
		And in the midst of that, I began to think, well, tomorrow is Saturday, and being a sailplane pilot and member up in the New York area, I was thinking that a cold sun could come through and there'd be a nice beautiful ridge lift and thermals the next day, and on Saturday, and I'd be flying around in gliders and sailplanes.
		And as I was thinking how nice that would be in the sense of soaring power that there is in a thermal in a glider, all of a sudden I felt myself bumping against something.
		And I looked around, and to my surprise, I was on some type of flat surface.
		And I said, I wonder what this is.
		This is a strange kind of dream.
		I'm fully conscious.
		And then I looked around and I thought, well, here is a, this is a strange thing to dream.
		Here's the thing that looks like a fountain coming out of the floor, as it were.
		And then I suddenly, with a shock, realized that what I thought was the fountain was the chandelier in the bedroom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And so I turned with utter astonishment and rolled over, and in that bumping against the ceiling, I looked down, and there in the bed below, there I was in the bed below, and there was my wife lying in bed beside me.
		Except as I saw it at first, I didn't think that.
		I didn't recognize myself because here I was bouncing against the ceiling.
		So my first thought was, what a dream.
		I wonder who I'm dreaming is in my bed with my wife.
		And after a sudden little poster look, and I'm still against the ceiling, I realized the man in bed with my wife was I. So I frightened.
		I said, I'm dying.
		This is the dying process.
		And I'm not ready to die yet.
		So I fought my way vigorously, swimming down through the air, as it were, and somehow popped back in my body.
		And I sat up and looked around, and there's my wife soundly asleep.
		And I looked up, and there's the ceiling with a chandelier.
		And I obviously didn't get sleep that night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What an incredible experience.
		Now, you said that you were experimenting with some sounds or some audio in order to assist you with sleep.
		Can you amplify on that?
		What were you doing?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, this was a pattern that we had developed, but I hadn't done anything with it for over a year, and nobody else had anything remotely like this particular effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so it was not due to that, and whatever was occurring to you was utterly spontaneous?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It seems that way.
		In other words, we were looking for any types of possible answers, and that was when we thought, well, that would affect other people, because we had about 100 subjects that we had used in it, but it didn't affect anybody else anywhere, not even the semblance of it.
		So anyway, excuse me, the most important thing was that I was so sure that that was a beginning of a dying process, and I was terrified.
		And you can't imagine how terror-stricken one can be or panic-stricken, because every time after going to doctor and not finding still any interesting comment about it, I had great trouble of letting myself let that happen and finding that if I released or just let go a little bit when that took place, I would float out of my body.
		And each time I thought I was dying.
		So anyway, that went back into more physical exams, and I finally got the courage to go to a doctor, a psychiatrist friend in New York named Lewis Wohlberg.
		And he said, well, he says, I can tell you one thing.
		He says, I know that you're sane.
		I know you too well.
		So don't worry about any psychotic thing because you're not that tight.
		Well, I said, well, what'll I do?
		He says, I don't know.
		You can go into psychiatry and find it if you want.
		It might take a little while.
		And I said, well, I'll think about it.
		So anyway, after about 10 additional episodes, something like that, I finally realized that this floating out and floating around the room was not going to kill me because I could think a certain way and I'd get back in my physical body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until that moment, though, it must have been absolutely terrifying.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It was, and I could not, I couldn't get, being very much an engineering type, I couldn't find any common scientific answers for it.
		The only one was dualism, psychosis, and things like that.
		So that was the big problem because I couldn't find an appropriate answer.
		So after about the tenth time, I finally realized, well, this is not going to kill me.
		I'm not in the death process.
		Well, that made something else come up entirely worse.
		And that's curiosity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it did, yes.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		This is not going to kill you.
unidentified		What is it?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, so I began to experiment with it around the room and so on.
		And just I found I could only go a certain distance away from my physical body.
		And it was as if there were something holding me back.
		And I finally answered that because I realized what it was, the other part of the life's secrets, as it were.
		The thing that was holding me so heavily was that I had this very strong sensual sexual urge.
		And I, of course, obviously tried to wake my wife and had no luck there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that was binding you up?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It was keeping me close to my physical body because it was related to a physical drive.
		Anyway, I used the old gene autry principle on that finally to overcome My need to go beyond 30 feet from the body.
		And you probably don't know the Gene Autry technique, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir, I don't.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		No, you're too young.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Gene Autry had a thing where, in turn, he did a lot of, you know who I'm talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, he had a formula that was very, very effective for pre-puberty children who came to see his movies on Saturday afternoon and in a movie house, no TV.
		To make it very short, the technique was that in the movie he would meet a girl and then he would have his big fight with the bad guy and he would overcome the bad guy and after he overcame them he'd go to the girl and she'd say, oh, Gene, you're so wonderful.
		She'd look up with pursed lips at him.
		And Gene would look down and all the audience, and he learned this, how, who can tell, through the years.
		But all the girls were going, and all the boys are saying, oh, he ain't going to kiss her, is he?
		So what he did, learning that, he had a formula that fit his pictures.
		That what he did, he said to the girl, honey, I love you, and I'll get to you later.
		But first, I want to sing you a song.
		And so he picked up his guitar and started singing, and they rode off into the sunset, and everybody was satisfied.
		So my answer, finally getting down to that, was an easy answer.
		Fine, I'll say to this sexual drive of mine, I'll get to you later.
		But first, I want to do this other.
		Yeah.
		And sure enough, it worked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, you conquered it psychologically.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that released you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Then began a series of experiments, and I took this research team that I had and turned them loose and trying to find information about this.
		And we found that quite quickly that there was what was an underground, as it were, and we're talking back in the 50s or 59, 59, which was the area where all the you'd find the trance people and all types of mystical things and call it dreamland if you want.
		Well, anyway, after a long period of time, we found out the usual ones there, and I had meetings with the, that was right at the beginnings of parapsychology.
		And I went down and met with J.B. Rine, for example.
		I don't know whether you know the name or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, he was the leading figure in parapsychology in that era.
		I'm talking about 1960, I guess, 509.
		Anyway, to make it short, I met with him, and he said on a Saturday at Duke University, and he was very, he says, it's very, indeed, very interesting, but he says, it's not my department.
		And I said, well, what is your department?
		He says, oh, we work with cards.
		And I said, oh, thinking that I had a poker game the night before.
		And he explained how they have subjects testing subjects for psychic ability by having them read cards before they turned over and this kind of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, I'm familiar with that.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, anyway, so I left, and as I was going out the door, this research assistant and Dr. Ryan's opening the door to get me out, says, Mr. Monroe, I said, what?
		He says, don't worry about it.
		I says, what?
		Why?
		He says, I do it too.
		That was the first person I ever heard who had ever done anything like it.
		And then following up that, mind you, now the fear had faded away.
		And I was trying to do something about it.
		It was another question.
		So I had another friend, a psychologist, a named Foster Bradshaw.
		And I finally got the courage to talk to him about it.
		And he says, oh, that's nothing new.
		I says, well, I'm glad to hear that.
		He says, there's a very easy way to handle it.
		And I says, what do you mean?
		He says, oh, you go over to India.
		That's it, and you live in an ashram with a guru for about some time, and he'll tell you all.
		He'll get it all fixed up in your mind.
		And I said, well, thinking about my business and my home and my wife and two children.
		And I said, well, how long would this take?
		He says, well, that's not important how long it takes.
		Well, I said, how long do you think it's taken?
		And he says, well, oh, maybe 10 to 15 to 20 years.
		And I had my usual run with him.
		And I said, well, Brad, what would you do?
		And knowing he has a wife who had two grand pianos, and that's why he is an industrial psychologist in New York, mainstream things like that.
		I says, what would you do, Brad?
		He looked at me with this all-lofty smile and says, it's not my problem.
unidentified		It's yours.
unidentified		Yeah, nice answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much experimentation had you begun to do with this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, once you realized it wasn't going to kill you, as you continued to have these experiences, what did you try to do?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tried the very simple things, obviously, at first, and that is going through the walls in the house and out and around and stretching outward and going upward.
		Obviously, being a pilot in airplanes, it was interesting to go up and go and play in the clouds.
		Because I no longer had the fear.
		But I gradually began to expand it, and my main key in the early era was to get stuff I could verify, Such as go to some person's house and visit with them and try to make some kind of appearance or get information and bring it back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you able to do that?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Very much so.
		And to my very pleasant surprise, as a matter of fact, in several cases, I appeared as people perceived, not knowing that I was there.
		That's the point.
		I didn't announce that I was going to go visit them that particular evening or whatever, but I appeared as sort of a little bit of a swirling gray mist, and that's why they saw me, not as a physical person, but as a gray mist.
		Anyway, it's most important to recognize that it was fully a year of this type of experimentation before I myself was convinced of the reality of it.
		That it was not an hallucination or a wild dreaming state or whatever.
		It took a full year of this before I said, yes, this is real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As time went on, were you more easily able to attain the state where you would be able to travel out of body?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, very much.
		That's what all of this was.
		And then I got, as we moved into the early 60s on it, we began to do all different types of experimentation on going to the coast and back and everything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's remarkable.
		Mr. Monroe, hold on just a moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		We're interviewing Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute.
		This is Dreamland.
		Mr. Monroe, if you are there, we are now right at the top of the hour.
		And so we're going to pause for about five minutes and do the news and so forth and so on and come right back.
		So stay put, relax for a few minutes.
		We'll be right back to you, okay?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, great.
		Mr. Monroe, Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute, back in a moment as we talk about states of consciousness that perhaps can be achieved by you, perhaps by everybody, if only they knew how to do it.
		Talk about inexpensive travel.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		This is Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we will continue with your calls and begin your calls shortly.
		My guest is Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute, and he's been describing a very early experience or series of experiences he had with journeys out of the body.
		This is really, I guess, the genesis of the Monroe Institute, internationally famed for what it does.
		And Mr. Monroe, are you there?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think I'm here anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you are, although I suppose with you, one never knows for sure.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		No, they know for sure.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I've gotten past that now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell me, there's been a lot of scientific study, and some not so scientific, of the near-death experience.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you mentioned that you thought it might have been an NDE that you were having.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a relationship to the NDE?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Not in the sense that it's commonly been researched in recent years.
		It's a different kind of thing.
		We were very methodical.
		You've got to understand that simultaneously with all of this, I, in turn, was operating a company, and we moved out of the broadcasting program production.
		And instead of going to the West Coast, we moved down to where we had three radio stations down in Virginia and North Carolina.
		And we set up a facility here and began a very serious research.
		And the first thing that we found out was that conventional science did not have any means of measuring anything like this at all.
		The closest thing was the biological and electrical science, and we got into those relatively early.
		But in going down to Virginia, then we did set up a research facility where we could indeed see if it was possible to measure other people in similar states.
		And in the beginning of that, we enlisted a PhD doctor, young friend, who's been a friend ever since, back in the 60s.
		And we began some very serious experimentation.
		And there's a man by the name of Charlie Tart.
		I don't know whether you've heard of Charlie or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you able to actually document any biological changes that occurred during this state?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		We began to match them up, and we found that, generally speaking, we'd also develop methods and techniques, but we had an average of about eight to ten subjects that we were using constantly in the 60s and 70s down in Virginia, in Richmond, and then in Charlottesville.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Incidentally, what brought us into Charlottesville is that we got into the cable business.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm very familiar with it.
		I guess we've been down similar roads.
		My background is in cable television and broadcasting.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And you know, even then, in the whole idea we were microwaving signals in, I thought, aha, someday that's what cable's going to be.
		It'll be satellite stuff.
		Anyway, to make it short, there was no means of measuring other than the conventional signals.
		And we found one of the things, there were two states that came out biologically, and be that I mean chemically and electrically.
		One of them was dreaming sleep, and that was when one was near the physical body.
		The second one was in stage four sleep, which is deep sleep, delta sleep.
		And that is when the major activity in what we coined the phrase and it became generic.
		We didn't like to call it the old phrase of astral traveling because it had too much of a mystical flavor.
		So we coined the term out-of-body, which has Now become generic, as you know.
		But what we found is that these extended distance type of activity all had to do with stage four sleep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I might, Mr. Monroe, how were you actually able to document that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If a person is there sleeping, how do you correlate the time of the out-of-body experience with a particular state of sleep?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was very simple.
		In the 60s, it became a lot simpler than it might seem at first.
		We took various type of body measurements, electrical measurements, and occasionally then we got into EEG patterns, but we did not have the equipment at that time to be able to do it properly.
		Anyway, what we found is that when a person was in one stage of sleep, our subjects who in turn became proficient, I might add, in performing this out-of-body, we took readings on them in these activities that they were doing and matched them up with the biological science of these two different stages of sleep.
		And this is where we began to get the connection that led us to really where we are now.
		But through those early periods, we did some of it.
		We did at UVA, for example, back in the early days in the 60s, and that's where we at least got the beginnings of working on an EEG pattern.
		Out of that, we attracted attention from various scientific people as a result of just simply word spreading that we were looking at something from a different point of view as against a strictly mystical approach to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How was the conventional scientific community reacting to your work then?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		They reacted with a great deal of skepticism until one and more of them began to experience the thing through the system that we were slowly, painfully developing.
		And it was kind of a thing that working on a means of getting past the hard rocks that I had encountered.
		And the first one, of course, is fear, and the second one is the reality of what it is.
		And it doesn't take nearly so much work to have people determine the reality.
		And we're not talking about college students, which are often the typical subjects.
		These are people that one way or another had heard about what we were doing and became interested in it, like a physicist and psychologist at all.
		And that was the beginning back in the 60s.
		And moving slowly through the 60s, we developed means of inducing these various states.
		And in inducing those states, we got it very simple.
		The first one was, and we gave them labels so they would be impartial in terms of states of consciousness.
		And the first one was very simple.
		We called it mind awake and body asleep.
		And this is what we call focus 10.
		And so we did establish these different types of states of consciousness that we could induce by using these various particular sound patterns.
		And so by the 70s, we had a we had spread simply because the word would get out among the scientific community, and those who were curious or had something similar happen to them were attracted to our work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are these the sounds that are now known as the hemisync tapes?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		The hemisphapes.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		In other words, hemisync.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hemi, as in hemisphere of the brain, I think.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And what these patterns we did find was that it's a special method that we didn't invent what's called the benaural beat, but we did indeed use that as a system of a means of getting these low-frequency vibrational patterns into the brain.
		In other words, the benaural beat, it puts, say, a 100 hertz signal in one ear, which you can hear, and a 104 hertz signal in the other ear, and the brain has to synthesize that 4 hertz differential.
		That's what a benaural beat is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you end up with a 4 hertz that the brain itself hears?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the brain itself has to synthesize that by that synchronization of the hemispheres.
		because one thing was the money here and the uh...
		the other thing with the opposite ear and the net differential And I said, we didn't invent that.
		It's just the actual waveforms are the ones that we put together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then is it the four hertz signal that the brain hears that actually enables or assists in attaining the state you're talking about?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a combination.
		We now use multiple combinations thereof.
		But that's how we first began, by getting these very simple combination patterns going.
		And in terms of where that got is quite an interesting story, but I'll bring you up through the years to give you an idea of where we are now.
		We have a 20-channel EEG system and an isolation booth where we have got a great deal of the RF out of it, and we use that in an awful lot of research.
		And I will turn you over to Skip Atwater and let him talk a little bit about the research patterns.
		That will help.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I would love that.
		And go right ahead.
		Coming is Skip Atwater.
		And Skip Atwater, are you there?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Skip, what division do you head up for Mr. Monroe at the end of the day?
unidentified		The research division that you mentioned earlier in your introduction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Fascinating stuff that you folks are doing.
		What can you tell us about the present state of your research.
		In other words, what all this has led to.
unidentified		Yes, the present-day research has really been due to the age of computers.
		All the work that Mr. Monroe had done over the two decades prior to the invention of the computer world and analysis is now being validated.
		He has always been a man ahead of his time, as it were.
		And the notions he had about what were going on, what was going on, are now being proven to be true by looking at the brainwave states through computerized electroencephalography, actually measuring brain waves with a brain mapping system that runs off a computer.
		Not the charts and the squiggly lines that we've all seen on drug commercials on TV and things like that, but actual computerized analysis of the brainwave state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are you actually able to chart?
		This is fascinating.
		What can you chart about the brain besides electrical activity?
unidentified		Well, we can see how the sound patterns originally invented by Mr. Monroe affect the change in the patterns of the brain, and those changes then have been identified over the years as being characteristic of states of consciousness.
unidentified		So you can actually see dissociative states of consciousness and transcendent states of consciousness as they're experienced by the people reflected in their brain states.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		That's a significant accomplishment.
		if somebody were there and uh...
		we were actually observing this underway what uh...
		how are you able to document this of using a computer uh...
		is it just In other words, getting a little bit technical with me, if you can, what exactly do you look at?
unidentified		What we do is watch an overall flowing pattern of brain waves.
		The brain waves are the result of electrical neuron firings in all levels of the brain and are reflected up on the scalp as activity of the brain.
		Not all things actually occur in the neocortex or that gray layer over the top of the brain.
		The brain is active electrically in regions down deep inside.
		So what you see as the pattern and activity on the top of the scalp where we put our electrodes is a result of all that activity in the brain.
		So it actually takes the computer to figure out all that information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		But that is, in essence, what an EEG does as well, is it not?
		In what way does the point you've come to differ from an EEG?
unidentified		Well, this is the state of the art of EEG work in terms of analysis.
		It's not just the squiggly line graphs.
		You can take and make a map of activity, a color topographic map, like you might see a weather map of the United States as the clouds pass over it and the weather fronts pass over it.
		You can see that same type of information passing over the scalp and over the surface of the brain.
		And by analyzing those changing patterns, based on known concepts of brain activity, you can see the states of consciousness change as people move through them in response to the Hemisync system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When somebody achieves this state and is, in fact, traveling as Mr. Monroe has, what changes do you document?
unidentified		People usually start out with what we call the alpha state, where in the back of the head there is high amplitude alphas.
		They're just laying there resting before moving into this state.
		That pattern changes as they move into what the sleep researchers call stage 4 sleep and what the consciousness researchers would call a dissociative state of consciousness or dissociating from the physical awareness of the body.
		That results in a high amplitude delta frequency happening right on the top of the head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		All right.
		That's quite incredible.
		And so where do you go from here in your research?
		As you're going to, I'm sure, continue to try to document this.
		What is ahead for the Institute?
unidentified		Well, the first task five years ago when all this became a feasible thing to do to actually map the activity of the brain as it responded to the stimulus of the Hemison process was to improve the tapes by measuring the population of people and then changing those patterns slightly and improving the process that Mr. Monroe had discovered some years previously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		I want to ask you a question.
		Do we have more than one telephone online now?
unidentified		Right now there is, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Could we, I'm sorry to ask, but would it be possible to have just one phone at a time online?
		It's reducing the audio too far.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold on and I'll get off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, by all means, come back.
unidentified		Is that a little better now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's quite a bit better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, thank you.
unidentified		All right.
		The situation has kind of progressed from there, and now we are able to record the brainwaves of people who have specific talents, talents like Mr. Monroe's for traveling out of his body.
		But included in that are other human talents like a concert pianist or an architect or a noted author or computer programmer.
		And by mapping the patterns of those, we are trying to develop sounds that might be able to pass these talents on to other people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Wow.
		Now that's quite a line of research to be following.
		How are you able to, and I'm really wandering around here because I really don't know what I'm talking about.
		So excuse the ignorance, But how are you able to map, for example, somebody with a great computer talent or somebody who's a concert pianist, and what differences are you able to note between that individual and anybody else?
unidentified		Yes, that's ongoing research.
		What we've tried to get them to do is to perform their talent while being mapped, while being recorded.
		We would record a baseline recording when they're not performing their particular art and then make a recording while they're performing their art.
		And if we can get five, six, twelve pianists that can play the piano just exquisitely and we notice a commonality between that pattern that differs from the general population while they do that, then we have identified a specific state of consciousness that would enhance being a concert piano.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you have documented this?
unidentified		In some talents, yes.
unidentified		It's hard to collect data on all these things, but there are some talents that we have been able to identify.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And are you able to see similar activity in a specific part of the brain with regard to a very talented person, or does it vary according to what the talent is?
unidentified		Both according to the talent and according to the person.
		This is the brain, each one of our brains is not identical.
		They are anatomically different.
		As we grow from infancy through adulthood, the folds and increases and changes in our brain are all different.
		Fortunately, there are some common patterns, and it's ferreting out those common patterns over hundreds and hundreds of subjects that is our task.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		That's quite a task you've undertaken.
		And I suppose when we get to the practical applications, we get into the educational division.
		Is that correct?
unidentified		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I would like to ask that you hold on just one moment.
		We'll come right back to you.
		And we are interviewing actually a number of individuals from the Monroe Institute.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And once again, F. Holmes Atwater, who is a researcher for the Monroe Institute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And are you there?
unidentified		Yes, I'm still here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		We've got only a couple of moments before the bottom of the hour.
		But how much of your research now is able to be translated into educational help for people who want to know more about this?
		In other words, how much of what you have done has become practical application?
unidentified		Yes, that's a really good question.
		And because we want to be of practical use to people, to do research or to do work in this area and never develop any practical application would just be fruitless.
		And we have developed a lot of practical applications over the years that have proven now over three decades to be of benefit to people.
		We have a number of brochures and literature about the use of our techniques with professional people, dentists, lawyers, therapists, educators who use the Hemisphere technique in their own profession, as well as individuals on their own personal voyages through consciousness who look into this technique for themselves to see if this works for themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, there is help for, there's certainly help for individuals.
		Is it in the area of well, I'll tell you what, we're at the bottom of the hour.
		Let's hold up just a moment.
		We'll come right back to you.
		And this, of course, is Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
		Journeys out of the body.
		We're discussing them and what practical implications knowledge of these things might have for all of us.
		We'll be back.
unidentified		We'll be back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody, welcome back.
		I am Art Bell.
		We're interviewing Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute and company, most recently F. Holmes Atwater, who heads the research division at the Monroe Institute.
		And back now to the group.
		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, is this still David?
unidentified		Would you like to talk to Robert again for just a minute?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead and put him on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, David.
unidentified		Ark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I wanted to get our placement very accurate.
		We were very covert up until 1969, 69, 70, simply for the reason that I was operating very conventional businesses.
		And I was very concerned when Journey's Out of the Body agreed to it, simply because I thought, oh, this will affect my stockholders and so on and my company.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Interestingly enough, they didn't read those kind of books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there was not a problem then?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Not a problem.
		It was very interesting.
		So we were still very private, as it were, in our work that we were doing up until the mid-70s when Eslen, I don't know if you know about Eslin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I do, yes.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, heard about our work and invited us to conduct a workshop up on Big Sur.
		And we thought, oh, this will give us a whole bunch of new subjects to test with the material that we have.
		So we agreed to it.
		And we went up and did a workshop, and they immediately invited us to go to San Francisco and do another one the next weekend.
		And we had never thought of doing anything like that.
		So we originally said, oh, we've got to give this a name.
		So we call it the M50000 program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		M5000.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		The reason that if we had 5,000 different subjects that we could test, we would have a wonderful base for data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it didn't work quite like that, but what happened was that we began to get calls from other people as a result of that about other programs, doing this query over in other ways and other places.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And I'll turn you now over to Dave Mulvey, and he'll tell you Exactly what happened, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, wonderful.
		Thank you.
		Dave Mulvey coming up.
		He heads the educational portion of the Monroe Institute.
unidentified		Well, not head exactly, but I am one of the trainers for the educational programs at the Institute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, David.
		Now, you take the science and you apply it.
		How do you do that?
unidentified		Well, that's correct.
		We have four basic programs.
		Well, one is a basic introductory program for people, and then we have three graduate programs.
		And we use this Hemi-Sync technology to give people a set of mental tools.
		There's an understandable conception, perhaps a misconception out there oftentimes, that the programs are about the out-of-body experience.
		That's what Mr. Monroe is so well noted for.
		However, the programs are much more detailed than that and much more about a personal exploration of oneself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, why might I come to you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What trouble might I have or a symptom might I have that I might want to explore or help with all of you?
unidentified		Okay, generally I wouldn't say that people come necessarily with problems or symptoms, but more of a curiosity, a sense of wanting to know more about themselves, about their relationship to life and the physical side of themselves.
		And, of course, many people have at least an understanding or a glimmer of the non-physical side of themselves.
		So it's the curious who come here to find out more about who they are.
		And what we like to do is give them these tools that then they can take out and apply not only in terms of exploration of consciousness, but also in terms of day-to-day practical tools that they can use to enhance their memory, to keep focused in a business meeting, for example, or to tap into a greater problem with part of themselves for creative problem solving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So concentration exercises.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Use the HemiSync signals to help people get into specific brainwave states so that they can then learn to implant certain types of tools or encodings that they can then take out into their day-to-day lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How well does it work?
unidentified		It works very well.
		And that's based primarily on people's subjective reports, mind you.
		We do get a lot of feedback from participants who come to the program, and we get letters and calls back of people who talk about how these tools enhance their lives in all kinds of ways, and sometimes ways that they might not be prepared for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do people come to you for a weekend or a week or a month, or how does that work?
unidentified		Yes.
		Most of our programs here in Virginia, all of our programs here in Virginia, are five-day to five and a half-day residential programs where they come and they are here immersed in the process.
		We also do weekend workshops.
		We've just started doing this, weekend workshops out at various places around the country.
		We've done several in Chicago.
		I had a couple take place in California.
		I have one coming up in August in California.
		And if I might, could I give our phone number for people who might be interested in getting some more information about the programs?
		Of course.
		Detailed information?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
unidentified		Okay, our phone number here, it's area code 804, number 361-1252.
		And we have people standing by even now, and also there is a message machine if they call after office hours.
		So if people are interested in getting some more literature about the programs, about the Institute, we would certainly welcome their calls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
		Wonderful.
		All right.
		Well, I hope you get a lot of calls.
		Again, these would be people who would like to explore more of their inner self.
		Is that about right?
		More of their inner self or physical self or both?
unidentified		It's both.
		We also have plenty of tape exercises, cassette tapes, that people can listen to at home in addition to the programs that we have.
		So that's the outreach of our educational division.
		And some of the physically related tape exercises are a part of a whole series that we call QN Plus or H plus for short.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had somebody in Cresswell, Oregon, who had a question for Mr. Monroe, but maybe you'd be the one to answer it, though.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why the Focus 21 on UP Hemi-Sync tapes are not offered for sale in your catalog?
unidentified		Okay, that's a good question and a frequently asked question.
		Just to familiarize your listeners who might not be familiar with the various focus states, if I could, I'd do a quick review that in our programs, we start, Mr. Monroe already mentioned the focus 10, which is a basic state we call mind awake, body asleep.
		Beyond that, we have a focus 12, which is a state of expanded awareness.
		Once someone has learned to detune the physical senses, yet maintain consciousness, then they can start expanding and experiencing beyond those physical senses.
		We have another focus level called 15, which is a state of no time, is the label we use for that.
		And then focus 21, which your caller referred to, we call a bridge to other energy systems, to other non-physical realms where people can perhaps visit or gather information or get in touch with larger parts of themselves, or perhaps some people consider them things outside themselves.
		The question was, why are those tapes, the advanced tapes, not available to the general public?
		That's right.
		Yes.
		And we have several reasons for that.
		One of them is that we really feel like at these higher focus levels, these powerful focus levels, that it's most appropriate that people listen to them in the context of programs that we offer with the support of a training staff.
		It's not that we feel that people might have bad experiences, but they might have very powerful experiences that it would be helpful for them to have some counseling or the possibility to help them integrate these very powerful experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything dangerous about achieving any of these states specifically dangerous?
unidentified		No, nothing at all specifically dangerous about it.
unidentified		We just feel that it's appropriate for them to have preparation and an understanding of what they're likely to experience in these sorts of states so that they are prepared for the sort of things they might encounter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do the states that you help people achieve differ in any way from traditional meditation techniques?
unidentified		I'm not sure necessarily, Art, that they do.
		What we have attempted to do is to give them very neutral labels like focus 10, focus 12, focus 15.
		And we picked those numbers specifically to have no kind of loading on them, you know, like no lucky sevens or 13s or anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		But numbers that would be as neutral as possible so that no matter what discipline someone comes from, be it Zen meditation or some form of Hinduism or yoga or whatever, that they could work within their own system and yet use this hemisphenc technology to augment their inner journey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, David, is it the case that one might take several different roads to get to the same destination?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		And one of the things that I feel really strongly about, and one of the reasons I'm very comfortable in working with the process here, is that it is that kind of neutral process where we have literally had people from all walks of life, doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists.
		We've had priests, we've had nuns, we've had swamis and rabbis and even one fundamentalist minister who have come through the program and felt that there is nothing within this process that has to conflict with their belief system.
		That's not to say that they might not have experiences that give them something to think about, but we don't say that we have the answers.
		What we feel like we are doing are providing people the tools so that they can develop their own answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wonderful.
		If you would put Mr. Monroe back, we'll go through some questions, and I'm sure we'll have you back on as the questions come up.
unidentified		Excellent.
		All right.
		Mr. Monroe is coming back on in just a moment.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will take this moment to do a quick break.
		We'll be right back.
		And when we come back, once again, Robert Monroe.
		Back to it, we are.
		And Robert Monroe, are you there?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a couple of questions before we open the phone lines.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		In your latest book, Ultimate Journey, you discuss the park, a place where people are sometimes taken after they die to acclimate to their new state and decide their next move.
		How could one go about reaching the park on their own, either out of body or after death?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me give you, I'll make it short as much as I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Our pattern has been odd, but it's standard.
		Where a need among the people who know us arises, we produce something that is effective.
		We have, for example, an emergency treatment thing that's used in hospitals during surgery.
		Tremendously effective.
		And right at the present time, a major study is being done at the University of California at Davis regarding that particular thing that's been so effective for the last five years.
		And finally, it's going to get an official report on it.
		That's one of the things.
		We have one for stroke recovery, for example.
		And it's only because if a person needs it that we have it.
		Then this pattern in Ultimate Journey, have you read it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
		And I don't have to go into great detail, but for the public a little bit.
		Right.
		One of the things that we had neglected was that we had happily, because we were operating so heavily in areas beyond physical life, we did not get to the issue of death itself particularly.
		And so what happened, very simply, is that as in so many cases, in my own case, the need outweighs anything else.
		And three years ago, my wife, Nancy, contracted breast cancer.
		And as a result, I, in my typical demand way, said, well, let's provide a system whereby I can be sure that she goes to a place, if she passes on and dies, that I would be able to find her and be with her.
		Item came out then that I had, as you read in the book, I discovered that all the way back in the 60s, I had been escorted to a place called the Park, which is a way station for people after they died so they can cool off from the trauma, as it were, of dying and figure out what they want to do next.
		Anyways, from that and researching that and also with the areas of people who I knew had already died, we set up a program called Lifeline, which Dave may have described to you, but which in essence is one to in turn help get totally familiar with the process of moving from focus 23,
		which is right after physical death, up to what we call focus 27, which is this park.
		We didn't invent the park.
		It's been there for millennia, I found out to my great surprise.
		But anyway, we've had, as of now, we've had three years, roughly 400 people have participated in this particular program, and they have made, during the program only and during the program, each of those 400 people have made five runs retrieving someone out of Focus 23 who was bewildered during shock and escorting them up to this Way Station Park where they can cool off.
		Each of them has done it five times.
		How many does that make, those documented runs?
		A total of 2,000.
unidentified		Wow.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Big stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big stuff.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And they do in turn, and there is a, we have a postgraduate study on that going where we are verifying the data of the person who had just died and try to get information that can be verified.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It's quite difficult because it's out of time, if you understand what I mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Somebody has been wandering around in 23 and gotten to not knowing what to do and bewildered for maybe 100 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		Well, that leads me to this.
		You discussed the concept of time being a physical, earthly phenomenon.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Accepted as a condition of entry.
		I gather this that lives, times, and events are happening simultaneously.
		This is a very confusing concept.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		And it's very, very surprising how we are locked into certain things that are peculiar to time space.
		And time is one of the key ones.
		And when you get up into these other states of being, you've got to realize that time is not, you can go backwards and go forwards.
		And in your own personal life and in other lives, you are locked into, we think, 1994.
		But it isn't so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it is not so.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It is not so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think of lucid dreaming as a springboard to having an OBE?
		And also, where do dreams fit into the picture?
		Do they?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll pose the real thing that's getting more and more our theme.
		And that is that lucid dreaming is the equivalent we found out over the years, did that a long time ago, is the equivalent of our focus 15.
		Lucid dreamer can evaporate the dream, and there he is.
		He's in the equivalent of our focus 15, which is a nice place to play in terms of no time because you can then move that time around in other areas.
		How to do dreams thing?
		The one thing that we've come, we are, we call it a process of converting unknowns into knowns or converting beliefs into knowns.
		They are not particularly important unless you can do so.
		Well, one of the things is that the important thing is that we have grown to know that what we are is far more than this one single life.
		And we are totally in a form of consciousness that is very local, as it were.
		And the dreams that are interpreted as are the means of our total self attempting to get signals down to this conscious self here.
		And that's why sometimes they're very wild and sometimes they're very funny and sometimes they're just pure information.
		But that seems to be the direction that we feel that humankind has to go is to begin to get past this discriminator circuit and that's what we are doing and get into that knowledge of that totality of what we are and that it's being done.
		We're not the only people doing it, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, you've done very important work.
		It's known internationally.
		I want to ask you a hard question.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When your time comes and you pass, what will happen to the Monroe Institute and will the work continue?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That is very specifically has been set up to do that.
		There's much too many people involved in it, not just here, but as you said, worldwide.
		I can give you a number of illustrations, but it is being set up so that it will have a support system to continue well into the 21st century.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's wonderful to hear, and I know a lot of people have wondered about it.
		If we could, Mr. Monroe, very quickly, let's try and begin to take a couple of calls here.
		On our toll-free line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
		Hello.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Seattle, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, do you have a question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't have a lot of time here for you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
unidentified		I would like to know where Mr. Monroe first learned about this technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've kind of covered that, I would say, but Mr. Monroe, a quick answer?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Quick answer.
		Where I learned about it, I found about it the hard way.
		I'm the monkey that fell out of the tree, if you want to put it that way.
		And I had to figure a way to get back up into the tree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So really, through a personal experience that began all by itself, you set out on a quest to learn what was happening to you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, out of necessity, as a matter of fact.
		And one of the most surprising things that has come up, has indeed come up in recent years, that back in those early days, I had an exquisite amount of help.
		And even today, I cannot assure anyone exactly where that help came from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One has to wonder, Mr. Monroe, how many people worldwide are going through exactly what you went through, perhaps without the support system that you luckily had nearby.
		Mr. Monroe, we're going to break here for the news at the top of the hour and come back and open up the phone lines.
		How are you?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
		Robert Monroe from the Monroe Institute, a very unique opportunity to talk with a researcher who has been there.
		We'll be back.
unidentified		We'll be back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On a Sunday evening, particularly appropriate, I think, this evening, the name of our program derived from its physical adjacency to that area known as Dreamland.
		But with dual application in the interview of Robert Monroe, who doesn't give that many interviews, it is a great pleasure, and we are going to get phone lines open this hour and let you ask quite a few more questions.
		In that hope, let me go ahead and take care of a little commercial obligation right now.
		And in just a moment, Robert Monroe.
		Once again, Robert Monroe.
		Mr. Monroe?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, it sure is a pleasure to have you on here.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's fun for me because I can open up a lot of things and don't have to be nearly so formal.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Remember, radio is my old business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's a wonder.
		I love radio.
		Mr. Monroe, somebody just sent me a fax, and they're asking about two things.
		One, in your travels, do you have any insight on two questions?
		One is, have you ever met with a being or met a being that is not human?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, you have?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And let's put it this way, it is indeed limited.
		But the thing that I discovered not unrecently is that we are a curiosity to other beings.
		Also, they have no particular desire to dominate us or something like that.
		We are a nice experimental species, as it were, not much more than that.
		That's my impression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the other is, do you have any better understanding, because of all this, of our Creator or a God?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I have very much that.
		One of the things that I had it all the time and didn't realize it, that is that this Earth life system is a created process and a creative process.
		And I can, as an engineer, go look at the leaf on a tree and see the design of it and what it aimed to do.
		And that is, it's a transducer, as it were, and it can stand all sorts of winds and everything else.
		And when it's through for the year, it drops off.
		That's really a very scientific, creative thing from my point of view, but it is creative.
		And then in working on this further, one of the things that was so utterly fascinating to me that there are portions of this focus 27, this is beyond time and space, believe me, it's the last vestige of active human thought.
		But there, I was astounded to discover that there is some type of energy field there that lets the human mind be a creator and create carbon life.
		I was astounded to discover that.
		Moreover, one of my part of my contract, I guess it was, for the help that I have received, is the idea that going back and looking at the source of this creative process, and I got as far as what I called the emitter, or lack of making a common term, and the creator or creative process is behind that.
		And there is an aperture through which one can go, but not until they're complete, as the people waiting, or people, not quite the word, the beings waiting to go through there, massive things, they pass some of this information along to me.
		And yes, that's one of the things that in turn has certainly come very much to my knowing, and that is that I know, as I sit here, how our civilization is restrained in terms of anything that's non-physical.
		We don't know anything about it in any way, shape, or form.
		And the options that are available to us, we are no longer physical here.
		Instead of being, one of them, of course, is being the human addict and go back and live another life because you get addicted to being human.
		But there are so many other opportunities or options along that spectrum of energy.
		And one of them is to go and, I'll put it in the crude way, I try to make it in things, ways that we can understand it now.
		And that is to shake the hands of the Creator and say, well, he did a great job.
		Not prostrating in adoration, but just to say, you're a real smart one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		All right, Mr. Monroe, let's go to the phones.
		Every one of them is locked up and wants to talk to you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's do it.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello there.
		This is FitzCalling.
		When Shirley McLane's five-hour television special out on the Limb was aired way back in January of 87, some of her highlights was astro projection.
		It did make a lot of waves.
		Of course, her book with the same title did make the radio and television interview circuit years before that.
		And many, many millions of people were exposed to the OOP subject.
		Now, Robert, we need another catalyst to push the subject to the people's attention.
		After all, they could join the Cosmic College for free.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		Well, we have not made a big point of being widely known yet.
		We did a flight study to indicate how many people, users, have been used as a method that we have available and put forth out of demand, but not out of advertising.
		And we figure that there have been a little over 2.5 million users of these various types of exercises on tape that we put out through the years.
		And these are a means of beginning to do the very things that you're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, I recall he mentioned Shirley McWain.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, another thing, that reminds me, I got very amused that in Shirley's movie, in her picture, I think she was the one that went into a bookstore looking for something, and right in front of her eyes was my book, Far Journeys, I think it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That was very funny, and I thought, huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She alluded to the possibility or claim that she had traveled toward the moon away from the Earth.
		Mr. Monroe, there are limitations that we believe we face physically with travel to other planetary systems with regard to the speed of light and all the rest of it.
		I'm sure you're well aware of that.
		Might out-of-body experiences be a way ultimately to travel where otherwise we may never go?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		We did a great deal of that in the mid-70s.
		And these were engineers and physicists, principally.
		And oh, we saw all the stuff on the moon before our shuttles and stuff got there.
		We went out to Mars and out beyond that.
		The trouble is, we found that we got nervous about going beyond the solar system, knowing how we might get back.
		We might get lost, until we found out it was very simple.
		All we had to do is to think back to our physical body, even though we may be 100 light years away, and we'd have no problem at all getting back.
		You didn't even know, and you say, well, where have you been?
		Out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe NASA should be talking to the Monroe Institute.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've had some NASA people through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you have?
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell, it's this time out of Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Oh, my God.
		I finally got through.
		This is incredible.
		I've had eye-to-body experiences, I think, starting back when I was about 13.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		They were nightmares and things like that.
		And as I progressed through my life, I remember about 17, I got more severe, and then got away from home.
		And then in my late 20s, it got extremely severe.
		And, you know, I didn't know the ride-you-body experience that there were nightmares and something, you know, freaky.
		And then all of a sudden, I started having control over it and kind of enjoying it.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Good for you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Good for you.
unidentified		And then, all of a sudden, just like you were just saying earlier about that actress, I walked into a bookstore and lo and behold, I never been there before.
		I didn't know what I went in there for.
		There was your walk in front of my eyes.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh, very good.
unidentified		And I started studying it, and I started practicing it.
		Good for you.
		And I never felt so good spiritually or physically after I'd go out of my body and then come back.
		And then I started, over a period of time, losing the power.
		I don't know what I was doing wrong.
		I just felt there was, I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain.
		There was something very weird.
		I was experimenting with it.
		I actually did two experiments unscientifically, of course, just a truck driver, but proved it to other people that I actually got out of my body, went by them, and did things, and could see things while I was supposedly asleep, which I wasn't.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I can tell you one that I had to do out of desperation to be sure somebody understood it years and years ago.
		I went and I pinched this woman in her side.
		It left a bruise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
		Oh, my.
		And so then there are, it is possible to have physical manifestations during an out-of-body experience.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		What I was doing, I discovered years later, was that I was not pinching her physical body.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I was pinching this other body.
unidentified		Oh.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		You see, and that's what left the bruise on the physical.
		But it was so astonishing because I didn't think I pinched her that hard at all.
		It was right just above her, around her waist, up above her hips.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very discreet of you, sir.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Discreet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Mr. John.
unidentified		Let me turn down my radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		So remember to do that, everybody, right away, please.
		We have a delay system.
unidentified		Okay, I have a question for Robert Monroe.
		Yes.
		I read his book, both of his books, in fact.
		I read Journeys Out of the Body and also Far Journeys.
		And Mr. Monroe, I have a question for you.
		In your book, Journeys Out of the Body, you talk about this one incident where you go to, you have the intent of visiting this one person at this house.
		You give his initials as E.W. Yeah.
		And you, before you do this, you end up going to this garage.
		And after that, you wonder why you ended up there instead of visiting this one person.
		And later, you visit this area.
		And you find out that there were these power primaries near the garage.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing is that...
unidentified		And suppose, and you said they had a fairly high voltage?
		Yes.
		And then in the book, you say, do electric fields attract the second body?
		And is this the medium through which it travels?
		And I thought that was kind of interesting.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've just learned, of course, that it's not electromagnetic, that's for sure.
		We've become very acutely aware of an energy field that our science knows nothing about because of the simple reason it can't measure it.
		And you are using this right now.
		In other words, Skip was talking about brain wave patterns, but these are generated by this other energy field.
		And they're the effect.
		And the causative factor is this other energy field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there is no relationship to the electromagnetic effect.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		No, not as such.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		We tested that very thoroughly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, good evening.
unidentified		This is Brian from KLPE Country down here in Medford.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Brian, you have a question?
unidentified		Yes, I'm just curious if he answered one of them partially.
		I had two of them, and then you were talking about documented proof of this experience happening.
		And so if you have someone pinching a woman, has there been scientific studies done with that that they have documented?
		And second, if you're out there Somewhere, and something happens to your physical body, what happens to you out there then?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it depends on how much it happens.
		One of the things that gets you back to your physical body, you're out having a wonderful time doing all these things, and you get an urge, a signal to come back.
		And in the early times, you've concerned, oh, something's going wrong, the building's on fire where my body is, and all this kind of thing.
		And you know what?
		The most common thing that pulls you back is the fact that your bladder is full.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that'll pull you back and motivate you all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He also asked about documentation of physical effects.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		We have those.
		We don't make a consistent practice of it, but they occur quite naturally in what we do.
		And we have quite a long line of them in terms of that.
		But you see, again, we're dealing with an energy that cannot be measured scientifically.
		So you can only measure the effects of the energy.
		You understand the difference?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
unidentified		Mr. Bell.
		Hello, Mr. Monroe.
		Hello.
		You know, I think you'd probably use...if I said this in the past, you'd probably think I've had several, quite a few experiences with astro projection, in which case, other people actually experienced my being there.
		They didn't know it was me, and I never told them in advance that I was going to do what I did.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		As long as you did not tell them in advance, that's a very important key.
unidentified		Okay, but now it was incredible when I found out later, and another friend that I had told that I did this, was on the phone with us.
		The three of us were on the phone, and it came, it sort of unfolded.
		But what I wanted to ask you, and Art had Richard Hoagland on, and I asked him when he was on about the Viking lander on Mars and how specific questions about the arm that was supposedly jammed.
		And I actually had the experience that I went in 1978 to Mars and found that the arm was jammed and that I unjammed it.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Hey, that's very good.
unidentified		But I haven't to this day, and it seemed like Richard Hoagland didn't came up with a very logical explanation of what happened, and he explained it over the air.
		So it may have just been my imagination.
		But I have very real experiences with it.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
unidentified		And it was an incredible experience.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you the most common illustration of this other energy field, of which we have a part and we manipulate a part, but we don't know we're doing it.
		And that is that you will maybe of an evening say, well, I ought to call Bill tonight.
		And five minutes after you think of that, the phone rings and it says, oh, Joe, this is Bill.
		Well, I thought I'd just give you a ring.
		And how many thousand times a day that happens in the human, this human civilization?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, is that precognition or did you cause Bill to call you?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		You caused him to call.
		You were thinking in his energy field and you imprinted him.
		And I must have had that happen, oh, at least 500 times in the last 50 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in the last 50 years, how frequently have you sat down and wondered about the ethics of that?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question, isn't it?
		And the other part of that question that you immediately say, well, that's one of the things you see that's omitted within our culture and our civilization.
		And it's done a lot, lot more than we consciously think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Makes one wonder how much action is really willful.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is Dave in Spokane, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hi, Dave.
unidentified		Again, well, I said when we were talking with Mr. Hoagland that my expertise wasn't in that area, it was more in this area, and here we are.
		It's good to know that you're not alone.
		It's good to know that I'm not a kook, because I've been doing this.
		I'm 50.
		I've been doing this since I was about five.
		And the entire gamut, I've probably got a million things I could say to you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I would like for you to do if you've gone that far, or anyone else going that far, by all means, drop us a note.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		We would indeed like to hear about it.
unidentified		Well, I certainly would.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And we would certainly appreciate it.
		And write to our staff psychologist, Darlie Miller.
		And all you have to do is Route 1, Box 175, Faber, Virginia, 22938.
		Route 1, Box 175, Faber, F-A-B, is in Boy E-R, Virginia, 22938.
unidentified		F-A-B-E-R.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Faber.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Faber, I would say Faber.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Faber, yeah, but they like it.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		In Virginia, they call it FABER.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		I have one question for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly.
unidentified		Very quickly, have you ever been to a place where it was totally dark?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and I'll hold that answer, Mr. Monroe, and we'll be right back with you.
		This is Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network, half-hour mark.
		My guest is Robert Monroe.
		There's more.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Back in the 70s, that was the equivalent of that type of reading.
		And it was electromagnetic, but we do not perceive the aura as such.
		But you can perceive, believe me, you can perceive other energies of people, but it doesn't come out as an aura, it comes out as the radiation.
		And you can't see it.
		You feel it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		On the 12-free line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Santa Barbara, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santa Barbara.
unidentified		I had an experience a couple of years ago where I was sitting outside in the morning about 4 o'clock, wide awake, and I started going up through space, out into space, past the moon.
unidentified		It was extremely exhilarating.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is, isn't it?
unidentified		Being totally free, just floating.
		I went out to a point where I could recognize all the stars and the constellations.
		Then I got to the point where I couldn't recognize anything.
		I looked back and I couldn't see our sun anymore.
		I kept going to a point, and I really started getting frightened then.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we got into that.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And that's why I say we finally figured out how to cure that fear of being not where you knowing where you are.
unidentified		Right, I finally got to, came to a planet, and I was coming down to the surface of a planet, and there were hundreds of people in my mind, you know, looking at different knowledge that I had, anything that I knew, just, you know, having conversations.
		And I came down to a particular place on the planet, and an old man came out, and he essentially came into my mind, told all the other people to leave.
		And I asked him where I was, and I said that he told me where I was, you know, on this planet where humans lived.
		And I asked him, why was I there and how did I get there?
		And he said, well, you're from a penal colony, and I'll send you back.
		I don't know how to get back.
		And so he sent me back.
		And this took all about 15 minutes.
		But I was wide awake.
		When I got back, I was just shaking.
		My whole body was shaking.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I can appreciate that.
		You see, that's the thing.
		I went through some very many different phases of that type of thing.
		That's why, being very much too left-brained, perhaps, I in turn have to get these into a form where we say, well, first experience it, and then after that, get your left brain in to analyze it and control it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, again, referring for a second to the near-death experience, there are so many parallels, there are a number of doctors now who say that the classic vision that people have, that is, of a very bright light with surrounding darkness, is merely a product of the dying synapses of the brain, that the synapses will die from the out moving inward, and that that's what that white light is.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		That's as good a definition as any.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		What we call focus 22 is that, is that tunnel?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that tunnel?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and this is how we commonly identify it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Incidentally, speaking of this one time thing, I enjoy so much the name of your series, your program called Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		We better change it a little bit.
		Maybe I can help you change it.
		Add some nice wild stuff.
		But I wanted to let you know because it relates to a little bit of what we're talking about.
		We have a new series for use in residences and in hospitals and hospices called Going Home.
		And it is designed for a person with a terminal illness or injury.
		And we just put that out within the last two months.
		And what it is, is designed to help not only that terminal subject decide what to go, where to go after he or she dies, and what to do by giving them a guided tour, as it were, and then giving them the option to do whatever they want to do.
		Most importantly, that's half of this series.
		The other half of that series, the series, is for the support group, the family, friends, and loved ones, and the caregivers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		So that they need the help to understand this too.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And it's got the support of psychologists and caregivers all over the United States and Europe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you say that somebody who knows roughly that they are going to die, that they are going to pass on, is a fortunate person?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that be a fortunate person, or would it be better not to know?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I very much believe in the, I believe it's not enough, I should put it in the no category, that we should have a choice in dying.
		Absolutely.
		I think that the individual, because so many, we have discovered them already through the research that we did for this new thing.
		And that is that many, many people have a death wish, and it's not, you can't stop that death wish.
		They'll get a stroke, and then they'll get cancer or whatever it is.
		And that reason for that can't be detected because once you meet them after they've got the process underway, and they don't know this until you, some do, but they don't really consciously know it, it's because they've completed what they came to do.
		And having completed it, there's no sense in hanging around.
		And it's that simple.
		I had a very dear friend who did exactly that.
		And no one knew why he would have a stroke and then after that was taken care of pretty well.
		Then he then developed abdominal cancer.
		And until I met him after he did, I didn't see any reason why he was.
		But he had done what he had done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was ready.
unidentified		He was ready.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		And there's no sense in hanging around.
		His grandchildren are all fine.
		Everything's in good shape and whatever.
		And he completed what he wanted to do.
		And so he just simply died.
		You can't stop a person in that case, don't you see?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, I do.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		You can put him on life support or whatever, and you can keep his body working, but he's gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Robert Monroe.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Phoenix.
unidentified		Henry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Henry.
unidentified		This is fantastic.
		I wanted to ask a question about the vibration you felt, sir, originally.
		Is that like an inner electrical, like a finer electrical feeling than you would get from a household current?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, quite accelerating.
		Yeah, it felt that way to me initially, and I have long since discovered that it was not electrical at all, because I even had a test at that time to see what it was, and it was not even showing a mechanical vibration, neither that nor an electrical one.
		So what else was it?
		You see, our science could not measure it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, Mr. Monroe, you would tell people, do not fear death?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I think that's the point is that it's a terrible thing to fear it that much.
		Because when you're ready, and it may well be that that's what we do with our going home.
		We help people become aware of the opportunities that exist beyond physical death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, will we ever come to a full understanding of the process of life and process of death?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we ever meant to know, do you think?
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		The point is, you see, you are growing a new personality, and there is this discriminator circuit that holds all this back till your personality, your intellect, your intelligence itself develops.
		And once that develops, then fine, it's all open.
		It's absurdly easy.
		That's what your dreamland is, don't you think?
		Yes, sir, I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, we're out of time.
		I want to give your phone number.
		I know there's a million people.
		The lines are still clogged.
		They have questions.
		It's area code 804-361-1252.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and they can call that during the day tomorrow also.
unidentified		Okay.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		Or all during the week, as far as that's concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One more time, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give us your address, please.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		I'll make it real simple.
		The Monroe Institute, Faber, Virginia.
		Yes, like the pencil, you know, S-A-B-E-R, Virginia, 22938.
		Sir, 2293-9749.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir, it has been a pleasure having you on the program.
		I would love to do it again sometime.
		We're just out of time, and I've got to go.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		It did get going, didn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it did get going, didn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Monroe, thank you.
robert monroe ▲ ● ▼		My pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute to order copies of this program or any other Dreamland program, area code 503-664-7966.
		It has been a pleasure.

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