Art Bell

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July 3, 1994 - Art Bell

02:17:40

Dreamland with Art Bell - Michael Lindemann - Looks To The Future

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31:50

linda moulton howe

09:26

michael lindemann

01:12:29

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening of part of the mind as yet not matched, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		It certainly is.
		Hi, everybody.
		It's Sunday evening.
		Means another Dreamland.
unidentified		This will be a good one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Michael Paul Lindemann, head of the 2020 group, who looks to the future based on present trends.
		In other words, based on what's happening right now, what's going to happen then.
		And he'll be along in short order.
		First, I'd like to welcome a brand new affiliate to the program.
		That would be 3WI.
		After what a great set of call letters.
		3WI in Brainerd, Minnesota.
		That's wonderful.
unidentified		That's actually WWWI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they call it 3WI, and I think that's great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Brainerd, Minnesota, welcome to the program.
unidentified		You'll get the idea of what it's all about as we proceed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is live listener participation, so stand by, and in due course, we'll have the telephone lines open.
		A regular feature of this program is a gal named Linda Moulton Howe, who you may recall last week had a death in the family, the passing of her father, and was not with us last week, is back this week in Philadelphia.
		And so without hesitation, let us go to Linda Moulton Howe in Philadelphia and find out how she is.
		Linda, good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
		I really appreciate your acknowledgement of my father last week.
		The funeral on Wednesday turned out to be a large assemblage of people in aviation from all over in Idaho and other parts of the country because he had been very involved in the building of airports for private aviation.
		And it was, I know someplace he's out there now flying and is out of his pain and for that I'm grateful.
		We are also today two weeks away and counting from the Shoemaker-Levy comet pieces that are to begin according to astronomers piece by piece by piece plunging into the gaseous hydrogen gaseous surface of Jupiter and that should begin somewhere on July 16th so we will try to stay up with what's happening there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And for that reason I have Richard Hoagland coming on the program July 10th.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right and I will also try to stay up with some astronomer colleagues to give a report that following Sunday.
		And two weeks ago on June 21st Dennis Claiborne in Garnet, Kansas found his second mutilation since August on a farm in Garnet, Kansas, about 60 miles outside of Kansas City, Kansas, Kansas City, Missouri, where the two cities are across the river.
		And just three or four days before he found those two mutilated animals, or the one mutilated animal that was following the August one, in Oregon, people were beginning to report to sheriff's deputies in Washington County outside of Portland a series of circles that were appearing along U.S. Pighway number 26.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just heard something about that, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I have received a photograph of it, and from the Oregonian newspaper, it says that in the waist-high wheat was a circle about 35 feet across.
		It was ringed by a second circle of completely untouched wheat that was standing.
		And that was surrounded by a ring.
		And when you look at the picture, it is a flattened circle that is about 35 feet across, surrounded by a larger ring.
		And then in four different compass points, north, east, south, west, are four smaller circles placed at those compass points outside of the circle in the ring.
		And they were placed on the north side of a hill just high enough to be seen from Highway US 26.
		And there was a point where the Washington County Sheriff's Deputies were having quite a challenge trying to control traffic because literally hundreds of people were stopping with camcorders and cameras to take pictures of this formation.
		And there was one man, Chris Ullman.
		He said, how did they get the circle so precise in the dark?
		It would seem like you would need a light source.
		This is quite a precise one.
		And we're now all waiting to see if anything more like this will occur in the United States.
		So if there are any listeners in any area that have some access to going out to where there are any kind of food and cereal crop fields, we are now into that phase where we're trying to keep up with any formations that might be occurring someplace.
		And this particular one, whether it was made by a human or something else, was on the outskirts of Portland, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, what would you recommend to people?
		Because a lot of times when these crop circles form, there's just not enough time to get to it for scientific investigation.
		And before people like you do, the fields are trumped by, you know, busy bees, rubberneckers, and people who want to see, and it all gets fouled up.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, I'll tell you, right now, and in fact, I'm happy to give my phone number on the air for this because Dr. Levengood, the biophysicist in Michigan that I've been working with for the last four years, has been getting some plants from England and is very interested in getting plants from any of these formations that might occur in Canada and the United States.
		And probably the fastest way is to get in touch with me.
		So Before I go into a brief excerpt from an interview with a Kansas farmer about his most recent mutilation and helicopter activity in the area, I wonder, why don't I just give my phone number and people could contact me who are listening wherever in the United States?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a gutsy thing to do, Linda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		Well, this is the only way I know to make this contact in terms of report.
		So the number would be area code 215-491-9840.
		And I will talk with people and we will see if there is some formation that does occur someplace.
		We will try to work with Dr. Leavengood to get plants to him, and so I would be the contact point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Linda, but there are a lot of people listening, and so you better qualify it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only calls you want are ones that are connected to crop circles?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Crop circles, and I suppose if somebody also in their area heard about some recent mutilations, since they are occurring in a variety of isolated parts of the country right now, I certainly could take a call on that too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, with those being the parameters, area code 215-491-9840.
		Linda Moulton Howe.
		Okay, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'd like to share with you a portion of a conversation with farmer Dennis Claiborne, who lives in Garnett, Kansas.
		He found one of his cows mutilated with the classic bloodless excisions of ear, eye, tongue, genitals, and rectum.
		The first was August 31st.
		The second was a young heifer, a little over a year old, found on June 21st in his farm in Garnett, Kansas.
		And when we pick up this particular part of the interview, I'm asking him about the comparison between the two mutilations on his farm.
		In the other one, how similar was the August 31st mutilation to this new young heifer this week?
unidentified		It was the exact same mutilation.
unidentified		There was no difference.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Everything was the same?
unidentified		Yeah, the cut might have been just a little rougher on the heifer than it was the cow, but not that much.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what about the color of the tissue?
unidentified		Well, you can see in the photos that were sent in here that the tissue was extremely white on the heifer.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		As if there was no blood in the capillary.
unidentified		There wasn't no blood, nowhere.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And you didn't see signs of struggle or tracks around this heifer in the grass this time.
unidentified		Wait a while.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Any signs of struggle or tracks around the heifer?
unidentified		Not around the heifer, but just that ring in the grass.
unidentified		Right, the ring in the grass.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, I understand that you have seen helicopter activity in and around this pasture recently?
unidentified		Yeah, about two or three months ago, or something like that, a couple months ago.
		I called the Sheriff's Department in the other county right across the county line and asked them if they had anything on a helicopter going down.
		And they said not at their knowledge at that time.
		They didn't know anything about it.
		But you could sit up there behind the barn with working cattle and you could hear it running off in the distance.
		Perfect.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So you could hear the sound of a helicopter.
unidentified		Yep.
		But you didn't see it?
		Never did see it.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And did you ever hear the sound of a helicopter at night?
unidentified		This was at night.
		It was at night.
		Every time we've heard it was at night.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And no running lights, no beams.
unidentified		Nope.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And that, of course, has been one of the constant themes for the last 30 years of people hearing the sound of a helicopter in a pasture area and not seeing anything or seeing what looked like a beam of light coming out of what people describe as looking like a helicopter, but in those cases, they often are silent.
		And that ring that he referred to around this most recent mutilation, I've seen the photos now, and where the animal was found, it was more like a half circle of trampled the grass, the pasture grass was, I don't even know if you could say trampled, but certainly laid down, not in the precise way of a crop circle, certainly.
		But it is unusual that there is this sort of half circle of trampled grass around this mutilated heifer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I must tell you, Linda, this phenomenon is driving me nuts.
		And now we have the addition of the helicopters.
		And, you know, you have to ask this question.
		Helicopters would at least lead one toward government involvement or the question of government involvement.
		And then you've got to sit back and say, now, what the hell would our government have to go to some farmer's field to get a cow to cut up?
		The answer is the government would not need to do that.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And every law enforcement officer I've ever talked to since I first did a strange harvest 14 years ago has said this is not the way the government would operate.
		They would simply buy the animals that they needed, take them onto some military place, and they would take whatever it was that they needed.
		And I think it's also important to report about seven years ago, a man who, as far as I know, works for intelligence in the United States government told me without my being able to ever name him or the source, but said that our government does monitor frequencies of what they consider to be non-human entities.
		And these frequencies that come from different vehicles or lights can be tracked and monitored.
		And when they pick up these signals, that certain teams are scrambled to areas in an effort to both monitor and possibly break up the action.
		And he indicated to me that this was done both in areas where there were mutilation activity and where there were abduction reports.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I say to that.
		Wow.
		Did he happen to tell you any of those frequencies?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Those are the kinds of things that when you get into details, none of us really ever get, and that may or may not be wise on the part of uh some of the people in the government who have some assignments uh in some of this.
		They're monitoring, and I think they monitor in I don't I don't think the government has all the answers, Art.
		I think that uh the government like we are trying to uh struggle with a phenomenon that is so complex and ever-changing that they themselves must study it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That then would certainly make sense.
		That's very intriguing, Linda.
		And if you can find out any more or if anybody out there knows any more about this.
unidentified		Call me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Call Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, a fascinating report.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and I will look forward to next week.
		And my best to Michael Windeman, and hopefully I can talk with him soon, too.
		I know you'll have a good conversation with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know he wants you to give him a call.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, Linda Moulton Howe.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that is the first that I have ever heard that suggested, that there may be frequencies of operation of these craft and that they are monitored.
		And when something is heard in a specific area, a team is dispatched.
		All of a sudden, that would make some sense.
		In just one moment, Michael Paul Lindemann.
		Michael Lindemann was born in Milwaukee in the state of Wisconsin, home of our new affiliate tonight, 3WI, in 1949.
		He became a conscientious objector as a university student during the Vietnam War, developing a lifelong interest in arms control, foreign affairs, and government policy.
		He earned a BA degree in psychology from Antioch University, followed by two years of study at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley.
		He later combined his political and psychological interests as an educator, social analyst, and futurist, first as executive director of the Peace Resource Center of Santa Barbara, then as founding director of the 2020 Group, which is a private research organization studying forces that shape the future.
		Since 1990, Michael Lindemann has earned national recognition for contribution to the studies of UFOs.
		He first examined the UFO controversy in 1989 from the angle of its possible connection to covert weapons development and social policy.
		Finding substantial evidence in support of UFO claims, he founded the Visitors Investigation Project to conduct and publish UFO research.
		Through the 2020 group, Michael Lindeman consults to the entertainment industry, news media, independent researchers, and private individuals on all aspects of the UFO subject, as well as other issues impacting the present and future conditions of human society.
		He's a dynamic public speaker.
		He's lectured and held seminars in just about every part of the United States, is a frequent guest on radio and TV of all sorts.
		So here from Santa Barbara, California is Michael Lineman.
		Michael, hi.
		Let's see.
		Let's try it again.
		Michael, how are you doing?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
unidentified		Good to hear from you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad to have you back on the program.
		For a lot of my listeners, Michael, they will never have heard you since we're on so many new affiliates.
		So I just guess I told them a little bit about you.
		What is the 2020 Group and what are you doing now?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, as you said a minute ago, the 2020 Group is basically a private research and publishing organization which I founded in 1989.
		At the time, I founded the organization.
		I really wasn't that interested in the UFO subject.
		I had spent the previous entire decade of the 1980s primarily concerned with arms race issues.
		The unprecedented military buildup here in this country and the saber rattling between the U.S. and Soviets during the first part of the 80s was of great concern to people all over the world, of course.
		And that changed, obviously, very, very dramatically at the end of the decade, which meant that I was switching my focus, looking around for what other kinds of subjects might actually, in effect, drive the social process here in the United States as well as other parts of the world.
		I think it can safely be said that during the period following World War II, right on up to the end of the 80s, the arms race, the so-called Cold War, was the single strongest influence upon social policy all over the world.
		The prospect we might go to nuclear war.
		All the ways of preventing that, all the ways of regulating that, all the ways of negotiating it for better or worse, and all of the technology and industry that went into that.
		That was the largest single thing in the whole social policy area.
		Now, of course, that has changed dramatically, and I was asking what's next.
		But at the same time, I was saying, why do we continue to build extremely arcane new weapon systems?
		And so I put that question out to a bunch of people.
		And I said, okay, if the Soviet Union is no longer the big enemy, in fact, at that time, the Soviet Union was fast becoming a non-entity.
		If there is no other entity of that magnitude which could threaten us, who then would be the rationale, the target, as it were, for all these new weapons?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, it's an awfully good question, particularly in view of the fact that if you look at our current defense budget, while there are cuts, there's still a lot of money going into weapons development.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And who are we fighting potentially?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Who are we fighting potentially is a very important question.
		Not only do we have a fairly large defense budget out in the open, are it?
		The money that people all know about in the federal budget, but there is also, much more importantly even, the black budget about which very few people know.
		And we may have occasion to speak of that later in the program, but I would like to mention to all of your Listeners, that if you have not yet heard or seen the book Blank Check by Timothy Weiner, I strongly recommend that you go out and get that book.
		It's in a softcover.
		Blank Check, subtitled The Pentagon's Black Budget.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about this theory, if you don't mind, Michael, that old habits die hard?
		And I know that sounds laughable and silly, but we have a long tradition now of connection between the government and defense contractors and all the rest of it.
		Jobs are at stake.
		Lots of things I can think of might drive, other than a real national security need, weapons development.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You're quite right.
		There's no question.
		Part of it is momentum, Art.
		Part of it is momentum for the simple reason that these weapons systems are on a very, very long development curve.
		And back when, for example, the alleged Aurora spy plane became a priority project, back in those days, the Soviet Union was very much a formidable enemy.
		And the idea of a new supersonic or super high-speed hypersonic plane was a very good idea, or at least a feasible idea.
		Today, we have to say maybe that plane is anachronistic, but I'm not so sure.
		And we should bear in mind, too, that that plane officially does not exist, and yet all of the major aerospace books or magazines in the English language say it does.
		The U.S. Geological Survey says it does, because they can track its movements on their seismographs.
		Many professional plane spotters say it does.
		This is a plane which officially doesn't exist.
		In fact, the Air Force has said vehemently time and again, not only have we not built it, we don't know how, so please leave it alone.
		Only a few weeks ago, CIA Director Woolsey said at a university in Kansas, asked by someone in the audience, what about the Aurora?
		He said, not only does nothing called the Aurora exist, nothing like that in concept exists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, listen, we've got to hold it right there, Michael.
		At the bottom of the hour, sit tight for about four minutes.
		We'll be right back to you.
		This is Dreamland on the CBC Network.
unidentified		You are listening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take a listen.
unidentified		You'll get an earful.
		Talk radio, 102FM.
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michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Summer is here and it's about time.
unidentified		How about a CD that's tied to prime?
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unidentified		If you like your banking without a frown, do your banking at MCB, not out of town.
		And this is Jean-Anne Herneger.
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		The unexplained, the unusual, the unknown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Dreamland on Talk Radio 102 FM.
unidentified		The Dreamland on Talk Radio 102 FM.
		From the Kingdom of Nine, you're here in Dreamland with our Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He heads up the 2020 group.
		His name is Michael Lindemann.
		And we're talking about, at the moment, things military, our defense budget, and he brings up an awfully good point.
		If the threat is largely, underlying that word, gone, then what are we doing, spending billions and billions, tip of the hat to Mr. Sagan, of dollars on new weapons systems?
		We were discussing the Aurora.
		Michael, you're back on the air.
unidentified		Okay, Art.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Just complete that thought real quick.
		Yes, the bottom line is that the CIA director says categorically it doesn't exist.
		Everybody else who knows anything says categorically that it does exist.
		That is to say, in the civilian sector, the military says flatly it doesn't exist.
		So you've got this divide here where they say it doesn't exist.
		Now, just as a point of reference, we might note that in last week's New York Times, in the Sunday New York Times magazine, there was an article about Dreamland, dear to your heart, I'm sure, right up there at Area 51, where the writer, almost tongue-in-cheek, pointed out that although we've got loads of photos of the place and everyone and his brother knows it's up there, the military still will tell you flat out it doesn't exist.
		It isn't there.
		And this is, I think, something we have to understand, that these people lie for a living, and to them it isn't lies, policy.
		So we have to understand that whenever we're talking about this subject, we're dealing with an area where deception is the rule of thumb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Michael, is a lie told in the cause of national defense a lie or just national defense?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is still a lie, and I'll tell you, you know, but it is a lie with a rationale or a lie with an excuse, as it were.
		Ali North trotted out his famous thing.
		We had to trade off which was more important, lives or lies, lives with a B or lies, in defense of his Iran-Contra behavior.
		Winston Churchill, when he was plotting with Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Hitler, said in wartime, the truth is so important that she must be guarded with a bodyguard of lies.
		Now, this is the way policy is conducted, and I am not saying that it's always wrong.
		I am simply saying it is something we must understand.
		We must factor it in.
		I'm not pointing a moralistic finger at these people.
		I'm just saying facts are facts.
		These people lie for a living.
		Now, when it comes to the UFO subject, of course, we're up against what is arguably the biggest secret in world history.
		And there, of course, I think for all practical purposes, it is being conducted in a war mentality, though it is not necessarily a war issue.
		But it is certainly being conducted with a war mentality.
		And so we have to assume that this lies in defensive policy, lies as policy, is very much the order of the day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you concluded, Michael, that we are being visited?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		My personal conclusion is absolutely yes.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I believe I am absolutely convinced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what is the body of evidence that brought you to that conclusion?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is, I must say, it has been coming together incrementally, Art.
		I wish I could point to a smoking gun.
		I really can't.
		I would like to say, however, that the new evidence or the recent accumulation of evidence around the Roswell incident is extremely compelling.
		And we can now point to several excellent books on that subject.
		One by Stanton Friedman called Crash at Corona and two by Randall and Schmidt.
		The first one called UFO Crash at Roswell and the new one this year called The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, which somewhat rewrites the timeline.
		But for all practical purposes, the story is the same and has been pretty much the same since Bill Moore first published the Roswell Incident back in 1980.
		But today we have, you know, dozens of first-hand eyewitnesses and many, many other eyewitnesses, family people who have seen how their loved ones passed away babbling about Roswell in the deathbeds, for example.
		We know that something extraordinary happened at Roswell, and it has all the earmarks of the most well-documented, legitimate UFO crash recovery in history.
		Not the only one, but one which is virtually a lead pipe certainty.
		And here we are face to face with one instance that proves the argument, as it were.
		Now, if Roswell happened as we think it happened, then the military is in possession of a substantial amount of legitimate UFO wreckage, that is to say, machinery built by a non-human, technically advanced intelligence, and they are probably disappeared, was shipped out under unusual circumstances and later disappeared, never to be seen again.
		Glenn Dennis says that he was told, also, if you speak a word of what you've seen or heard, someone will be picking your bones out of the sand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, it's easy to sit back academically when you're listening to this and saying, well, then why didn't they just blow it all out and, you know, let the story out and go to the press and all the, well, that's a significant threat.
		If you've ever had one made like that, you'll know.
		If not, you cannot imagine to kill you and your family and your children is not a trivial threat.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
		There was a young girl whose name at the moment escapes me, and perhaps I can dredge it up later on.
		Her father was a fire officer down there, and the fire department apparently had been called out to help set up the cordon around the crash area.
		Some small pieces of wreckage showed up at the fire department for a short period of time, and this young girl, 12 years old at the time, Frankie Frankie something, I forget her first name.
unidentified		Oh, God.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Frankie something, I forget her last name, says today, she has recently been interviewed, that she was told, she was approached by military officers, and she, again, a 12-year-old child, no concept of secrecy, no idea what's going on, but she had seen a small piece of wreckage which behaved oddly.
		Um uh when it was bent it came back into its original shape without any creases.
		She found that fascinating.
		But she said that they said to her, you have never seen anything, you don't know anything.
		She said, well, but I saw this thing.
		And they said, no, you didn't see that.
		She said, yes, I did.
		They said, you don't understand.
		We can take you out in the desert and you'll never be seen again.
		Now, this is a 12-year-old child for crying out loud.
		So what we're seeing here is that this has been treated as an issue of espionage, as an issue where there are no rules except the rule of expediency, the rule of get the job done whatever it takes.
		And I think we can say, in all honesty, whether we justify it or not, we have here cases of domestic terror which was justified in the national interest.
		People have been told, shut up or die.
		And that tells us something about the seriousness of this issue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wonder how they allow people like me on the air.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, you wonder how they I ask the same question about myself, and I'll tell you why.
		The fact is that you have not broken any oaths.
		You, as far as I know anyway, have not seen anything with your own eyes.
		You are, as it were, a peddler of tall tales.
		And in a certain sense, so am I. Now, you know, please don't take that wrong.
		I think what you're doing is extremely important.
		I think it may help break the log jam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they look at me and say, well, there's a guy helping to muddy the waters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is a guy with a million stories on the radio and people to sit back and say, oh, yeah, right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And there's a purpose to that.
		Now, I will throw out the proposition, which I'm sure we will be able to explore this evening further, and that is that we are being desensitized.
		That there has been a strategy of what I call containment for going on now 47 years, in which the principal priority was, at all costs, keep the secret.
		What we see now, though, is that the containment is disintegrating.
		People are telling their stories on deathbeds.
		Deathbed testimony has a certain persuasiveness to it.
		We have dozens and dozens of witnesses who say, I refuse any longer.
		I have always kept my vows, my security vows, and considered them very important.
		But now we have people saying, I'm sorry, this is more important.
		So dang those vows, I'm going to talk.
		We have, of course, hundreds of people saying that they are having these experiences, face-to-face experiences.
		We have, as Linda so eloquently reports week after week, we have these extraordinary mutilations.
		And I, for one, second Linda 100% when she says that when you add up the evidence and ask who could possibly be doing this, it boils down to it looks an awful lot like it must be aliens.
		maybe we can get back to that.
		But the point here is...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could never make the connection with the helicopters because that would mean government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But her little story about frequencies monitored and units dispatched in areas of activity, all of a sudden that made some sense, Michael.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I agree.
		The black helicopters or the incidence of unmarked helicopters around the mutilation events has always been one of the big puzzles.
		And I think it still is, but I think Linda's on the right track.
		Because it seems to me that it is extremely improbable that we, that is to say our military or our people, whoever they are, are conducting the mutations per se.
		And yet I am quite sure they must be extremely interested, perhaps even deeply concerned about this.
		And yes, they would be monitoring this.
		Now, there should be.
		If we understand anything at all about alien propulsion, it seems to me that one thing that we're aware of is that there are very, very strong and probably characteristic microwave signatures associated with low-level UFO activity.
		We have lots of evidence that that's the case.
		Indeed, that may be directly involved in the creation of crop circles.
		That remains to be proven, but it's a possibility.
		In the case of the mutilations, if indeed a UFO must come close to the ground for a period of time in order that this event would be perpetrated, as it were, it is possible that that very peculiar and powerful microwave signature would be traceable.
		And indeed, since we know that these events occur in concentrations, and quite often for reasons unknown, near major military bases.
		For example, the wave of things that have happened in northern Alabama happens to be rather close to the Huntsville area, which is an absolute military hotbed, of course, a major center for NASA as well.
		So we see, for again, reasons unknown, that this happens a lot in areas where it would be feasible for the black helicopters to be scrambled in short order and to go see what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		So then you believe they're here.
		You're probably, like everybody else, not quite sure.
		Should I ask you about why?
		Why do you think they're here, Michael?
		What's your best guess?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I could only give you a guess, as you say.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Let me start by saying that I am slowly gravitating toward what I would have to say, and with all due respect to myself and others, is the current lunatic fringe of serious UFO research, okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is what?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Which is the proposition that they've always been here, or they've been here one heck of a long time.
		And let me back up on that a second and say that over time, the lunatic fringe of this research area has shifted a great deal.
		It was only about 15 years ago, Art, when the concept of abduction was right out at the lunatic fringe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And today, as we all know, abduction is the centerpiece issue of UFO research, and anyone, even the very conservative organizations, such as the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago, which, you know, by any stretch is a conservative UFO research group, they're on the bandwagon with abduction.
		Today we have the most astounding abduction tales being taken very seriously by Harvard professors and so forth.
		And so we have to say, well, this topic has come of age.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, John Mack is going to be a guest on the program in the next few weeks.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
		Very good.
		Well, of course, as we probably know, most of your listeners, I hope, are aware of John Mack's quite remarkable new book.
		I would like to say a word about that in a minute, but let me just finish this other thought.
unidentified		Sure.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		We've seen that line, the lunatic fringe line, as it were, change, shift over time.
		Now, way back in the 60s, a guy named Eric Von Doniken said, you know, he thinks that the so-called ancient astronauts have been here forever and maybe left traces of their passing, you know, centuries or millennia ago.
		And in a certain sense, Von Doniken was his own biggest problem because his research was sloppy.
		He made lots of mistakes in his basic statements and so forth.
		But it's quite possible that he was onto something very, very important.
		And in the meantime, we've seen better scholarship out of people like Zachariah Sitchin.
		And we are finding that one of the most prominent themes among abductees today is this theme.
		They are being told time and time again, instructed, about the ancient history of the world and how it is that we have had this long-running relationship with these others.
		Now, we should say, too, that these others do not appear to be a single group.
		There seem to have been, this may have been a crossroads for this part of the galaxy for what we know.
		We hear stories to the effect that this is a fascinating planet because it is replete with so many different life forms, that it's somewhat of an anomaly in that respect.
		Well, I don't know if any of that is true.
		It's an interesting idea.
		The fact is, however, that there are all over the world incidences of what we call out-of-place artifacts and also out-of-place knowledge.
		For example, why is it that the Sumerians 5,000 or 6,000 years ago knew the precise dimensions and structure of the solar system?
		This is something that we didn't know.
		We didn't know about the planet Pluto, for example, until 1930.
		We didn't know about Uranus and Neptune until the latter part of the 19th century.
		And yet the Sumerians knew these planets.
		They knew their size.
		They knew their color.
		They knew how long it took for these planets to go around the sun.
		This is a fascinating fact.
		They wrote it all down, so we know it's true, even at diagrams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, it argues two possibilities, really, it seems to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One, that we were visited long ago and given these technologies, or two, and I have a number of guests that have said this recently, that it's possible that there are periodic polar shifts and that man on this planet comes and goes, and that there may have been prior civilizations.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Okay, prior civilizations, yes, even possibly prior periods of exceedingly high technology.
		Indeed, the new information about the Sphinx is most provocative in that regard.
		Are you familiar with the latest information concerning the possible age of the Sphinx?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please tell me.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, a man named John Anthony West a couple of years ago noted something most peculiar about the Sphinx.
		He was looking at photographs of the Sphinx and he said, by golly, this thing was eroded with water, not wind.
		Now, this makes it an anomaly in the whole area.
		All the other structures around there, the giant pyramids of Giza and so forth, are all very clearly wind eroded, but water erosion looks very, very different.
		And there's simply no doubt at all, from the standpoint of a geologist, that the Sphinx is eroded with water, the back part of it.
		So the question is, how is it possible that the Sphinx could have been eroded with water?
		When did it rain in Egypt?
		And the bottom line there is it hasn't rained any significant amount in Egypt for 10,000 years.
		Now, this, of course, raises a firestorm with Egyptologists because they have nailed down the age of the Sphinx, who built it what it's for, and all of that.
		But nonetheless, the geologists have come on board like gangbusters because John Anthony West, who's no geologist at all, enlisted the aid of some geologists from various universities in the East and the East Coast, and they went out there very grudgingly at first, but they had a look and they said, by golly, this guy is absolutely right.
		This bloody monument is eroded with water, and it's very apparent.
		It's not an ambiguous matter.
		So now, every geologist that has a look at it just, you know, drops his shawt to the floor and says, this is the most fantastic thing we've ever seen.
		Bottom line, what does it mean?
		The Sphinx can't be 5,000 or 4,000 years old like people say.
		It can't be an artifact of that dynasty that everyone pins it on.
		It is something that was built 10,000 or 12,000 years ago, long enough ago, Art, that rain, substantial amounts of rain, could have substantially eroded it before the rain stopped.
		And that is an absolutely stunning change in our whole view of that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Michael, hold on just one moment.
		My guest, Michael Lindemann.
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		Back to Michael Linneman.
unidentified		Michael.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, what do you think is the most likely that we were visited or that there was another civilization or there have been many civilizations or that there has simply been a rise and a decline back to the cave days?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think happened?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		What I think, first of all, Art, is that we currently live in an extremely narrow worldview about our history, about our past.
		We have some giant surprises ahead of us in terms of understanding our past.
		Probably, high civilization goes back a lot further than we think in certain places.
		But even so, it would appear that these high civilizations arose rather inexplicably, at least according to our current understanding of how civilizations arise and how they flourish and how they pass their knowledge to succeeding civilizations.
		I am currently of the opinion, and am desperately groping for data, I might add, that probably there have been infusions of information from off-world sources or from sources that we would not call human.
		That this has probably happened periodically over time, and that that would account in some cases for the sudden appearance of extraordinary civilizations in places that were not supportive of civilization prior.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why then would that knowledge not have contributed to a general rise rather than the possibility of there having been a highly technical civilization previously?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, in some cases it did contribute to a general rise.
		For example, we really trace a lot of what we call modern civilization today all the way back to Sumeria.
		If Sumeria was one of the seed beds of this round, let us say, of civilization and technology, an enormous amount of that has been passed down virtually unchanged through the Babylonians and Assyrians and shared with the Egyptians and may even have filtered eastward toward the Vedic cultures and certainly became the basis for the cultures of the Middle East
		and from there on to the Minoan culture, the Greek culture, and the Roman culture and from there of course in a straight line to us.
		There is no question that there has been a long path of more or less unbroken handing down.
		But the question is where in the devil did the Sumerians get their fantastic knowledge of astronomy, of agriculture, including irrigation, their codes of law, their codes of philosophy, their codes of their current.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael, we've got to hold it there.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		Relax for about six minutes.
		We'll be right back to you.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		We're sorry, but due to satellite transmission problems, Talk Radio 102 FM presents a previously recorded Art Bell Greenland program.
		Music From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now, toll-free, at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now again, here I am.
		Michael Lindeman is my guest.
		He's from the 2020 Group, which is an organization that looks at current trends and predicts future probabilities.
		I guess that'd be a good way to put it.
		We're talking about the UFO phenomenon, the visitations we're having, and according to Michael, may have had for a very, very long time.
		And we're going back to it right now.
		We will begin to take calls shortly.
		Michael, a couple of things that I want to cover with you.
unidentified		You have a current project going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was it?
		You told me about all of it.
		And I'm terribly sorry.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I've forgotten.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Are you referring to the computer project?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		just previous to that you had mentioned a project by name.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I had mentioned a project.
unidentified		A project by name.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've stumped me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you writing something currently?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I was talking about coming of age in the cosmic neighborhood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		There we go.
		I'm sorry.
		You got me a little bit confused there.
		Coming of age in the cosmic neighborhood is actually the name of a lecture that I am going to be giving in several places around the southwest during the month of July.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you going to be, and what is it all about?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm going to be, first of all, I'll be going to the MUFON, International MUFON Conference, July 8, 9, and 10.
		For those of people down in the Texas area, they may want to go to the, that'll be at the Hyatt Regency in Austin, Texas, July 8, 9, and 10.
		I'll be speaking down there.
		And then I'll be speaking in Albuquerque, New Mexico on the evening of Thursday, July 14th.
		And I'll be speaking in Scottsdale, Arizona, right outside of Phoenix, on Saturday, July 16th.
		In both Albuquerque and Scottsdale, I'll be delivering a lecture with lots and lots of slides and illustrations called Coming of Age in the Cosmic Neighborhood.
		And the catchy little punchline to that is, we are not alone, we are finding out, and that changes everything.
		So I'm trying to take a relatively upbeat attitude toward this.
		We're facing a huge mystery.
		We're definitely facing a political dilemma, to say the least.
		I think there are people inside the government who have taken this as one of the most serious challenges to the social order that they have ever had to deal with.
		It is very much on a par with serious warfare.
		But that does not mean we are necessarily facing hostility.
		What we are facing is high strangeness.
		We are facing the unexpected.
		We are facing the infusion of influences that we are not ready for.
		And that can be problematic, but not necessarily a disaster in the end.
		We have to get ready for this.
		We have to grow up and face the music.
		I think that is a huge challenge.
		I think it's exciting, and that's what I'm going to be talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's a what-if, Michael, and I'm curious how you would answer it.
		If I came to you and I was from the government and I said, look, most of what you've talked about, well, some of it, you know, you're off.
		You don't have a point right.
		But the fact of the matter is, we are being visited.
		We've been visited for a very, very long time.
		The Clinton administration has decided that it wants to break word to the American public.
		You, Michael Lindemann, have studied this sort of thing.
		What do you recommend to us?
		What exactly would you tell them?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I would tell them a couple of things.
		First of all, I would say that the process of desensitization is probably a sound political strategy, and I do believe that they're pursuing that.
		I don't believe that was a Clinton strategy.
		I believe it's been in place for several administrations at least.
		But I would say, yes, we must start telling people that things have been going on.
		And I believe we should start with some of the old cases.
		We should start to acknowledge that we have solid information showing the fact that we have been visited.
		This is going to be a hard pill to swallow for some people, but it's interesting that it may be less of a challenge than some people have predicted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, after all, Michael, we did swallow the plutonium pill.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that deplorable pill.
		Quite true.
		It's true.
		And it may just be that people are so kind of, you know, kind of just generally overwhelmed with the rigors of daily life that they're kind of going to yawn and go, oh, yeah, right, aliens, no problem.
		Now, of course, it's been, there has been a running supposition in government, and we know this from looking at the Robertson panel report from 1953, the CIA report about debunking, the Brookings Institute reports that came out of the late 50s and early 60s,
		reports from NASA and so forth, telling us unequivocally that the government has assumed that there would be some kind of very unpredictable social disorder if they simply said, well, by the way, we've got aliens and we can't catch them and we don't know who they are or what they want, thought you'd want to know, that that would probably precipitate a disaster which they were unwilling to take a risk on.
		I understand that.
		I think they're probably right.
		But I think, too, we're very different people today than we were then.
		I think that we now have a generation of adults who grew up with the space age.
		We have a generation of adults who grew up with fantastic space movies, who've seen all kinds of stuff on Star Trek since it began back in the late 60s.
		All this kind of thing has changed the picture enormously.
		We also have a huge amount of information coming out and reported much more respectfully today than ever before.
		Though there have been waves in the past of good reporting and big stories, today it's really unprecedented.
		The number of books, the number of quality television programs, the number of reports in the newspapers and magazines, all this is changing the picture a tremendous amount.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is still.
		The government is not likely to tell us about something that itself, that the government itself does not fully understand.
		It's not likely, is it?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		No, it is not.
		It is not likely at all.
		But I do think that if ever there was an opportunity, the Clinton administration represents a major break from the past in a way that the Bush administration certainly did not.
		Bush's political roots go way back to the early 50s when he was involved with the CIA in covert ops and, of course, as CIA director in the mid-70s.
		Reagan, of course, an old guard guy, and then from there on all the way back through Nixon and those people.
		Really, the last time we had a chance like this was the Jimmy Carter administration.
		And of course, Jimmy Carter said in 1976 that he would tell everything.
		And so we find out there, that was a campaign promise.
		We find out there that when he got into office, something dissuaded him because he made it very plain In his campaign talks, that he would tell.
unidentified		Why?
unidentified		Because he'd had a sighting and he believes in UFOs.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		So that changed when he got into office, and we have reason to believe that he, like other presidents, was briefed and told, I'm sorry, Mr. President, you really don't understand the nature of the situation.
		It's well under control, but you're not in charge of this one, sir.
		You'll just have to go with the program.
		And I really think that that is the way it has been.
		But now, in a way that we haven't seen before, I do believe that the Clinton administration is positioned.
		It could take this on because in a very real sense, it had nothing to do with it.
		These people are a new breed, and they could say, look, we didn't make this problem, and we want to handle it differently than it's been handled before, because we think the American people deserve the truth, and we think the American people can rise to the occasion.
		And indeed, the other side of the coin is that millions of Americans know this is real because it's disrupting their lives.
		Because they are having the experiences, and they know they're being lied to by the officials because they have grays in their living room, in their bedroom, for crying out loud.
		They are worried about why their kids are getting abducted, and they want the government to say something.
		These people aren't going to be surprised.
		They're going to be relieved that someone's finally telling them the truth.
		So I think we're in a very interesting time, a very pregnant time.
		It is still politically risky, but it is not impossible to start talking about this, and I hope we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When do you think we might give birth?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, as you've already said, and I must agree with you, sad as it is, I don't believe that we're going to see the political guts out of this administration.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I think this administration's got a lot of problems, you know, very bottom-line issues like Whitewater, you know, really big, important stuff.
unidentified		And Paula, what's her name, who officials?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Paula Jones.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Paula Jones, yeah.
		I mean, you know, really important issues that are clearly of world-shaking magnitude.
		These things are going to dissuade the president, I think, from having the political guts to do anything of the kind we're talking about.
		But that doesn't make it impossible.
		And I think there are other ways to go about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know, Michael.
		On the other hand, I could imagine he would look at it this way.
		Fed up with Whitewater and Paula Jones, an announcement about aliens would tend to sort of make everything else pale into insignificance.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You may be right.
		That's an interesting strategy.
		Now, here's something happening.
		Last time I was on your show, I made mention of the fact that there's this thing called the Roswell Declaration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And it says you've got a bunch of new affiliates now.
		I want to say it again because the deal is still the way it was.
		And by the way, the last time I was on your show, Art, I got 200 responses in the mail.
		And that, I think, is a tribute to you and your show.
		It was absolutely fantastic.
		But here's the thing.
		There's a piece of paper called the Roswell Declaration.
		It is now being widely circulated around the country and in Europe.
		And we have just learned, I'm happy to say, that it will soon appear as a full-page spread in Omni magazine, which, of course, will present it to millions of people.
		The Roswell Declaration is basically a plea to the Clinton administration to release information about some of the great classic UFO cases, principally Roswell, but also some of the other cases, to declassify certain information that would be in the public interest to come clean on this information and let people know what really happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do people get a copy of it?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		All they have to do is send me a self-addressed stamped envelope.
		Send it to Michael Lindemann at 3463 State Street, box 264, Santa Barbara, California, 93105.
		I'll give that address again in a minute.
		But if you'll just send me a self-addressed stamped envelope, I will send back to you immediately the Roswell Declaration.
		It's self-explanatory.
		Read it, sign it, maybe make copies of it first for your friends, and send it into the address that is listed on the declaration.
		And you will be joining tens of thousands of people, all of this being collected now, and after Omni presents it, and after it's presented in a few other major news venues, it will all then be collated and sent as a single huge petition to the administration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It will be sent to the president.
		Okay, who's doing this, Michael?
		Who's behind it?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, it began with the initiative of a single individual named Kent Jeffrey.
		And this man really deserves a huge round of applause because he took this on by himself.
		He wrote the declaration by himself with the help of other people.
		Including the Mutual UFO Network, the Center for UFO Studies, and the Fund for UFO Research.
		They are now all co-signers of the Declaration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is really a good idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, give the address again, please.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Please send a self-address stamped envelope to Michael Lindemann at 3463 State Street, box 264, Santa Barbara, California, 93105.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And I will send you a declaration in the same day's mail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and when they're done with it, where do they send it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they send it back to you?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		No, there is an address listed.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		In fact, they can send it either to the Mutual UFO Network or to the Center for UFO Studies, and those addresses are listed on the declaration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what, Michael?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just might be true that if enough of these were signed and sent in, and it were actually in the hundreds of thousands or hopefully millions, that this administration might take note and actually use it as a reason to make an announcement.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		It is possible, and it's very timely, too, that there's going to be an absolutely first-rate movie about Roswell on the Showtime Network on Sunday, July 31st.
		Now, I'm sad to say that that may cut a little bit into your audience, Art, because it's going to be broadcast, I think, during your show.
		But I would like to say, not wanting to take one listener away from your show, this is a program.
		If you're going to be listening to Art Bell that night, then by golly, have your VCR running and get this thing on tape and watch it because I have seen it.
		I have already seen an advanced copy of it, and I can tell you, this is one fine movie.
		And it is a, you might say it's a fictionalized docudrama.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the name of it?
		It's called Roswell.
		Roswell.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And it tells the story.
		And it is gripping.
		It has some name stars.
		Kyle McLaughlin is in the role of Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer out of Roswell who first broke the story in 1977.
		It has Martin Sheen is in it, and some other well-known actors and actresses are in the program.
		It's first-rate.
		It was a big budget production for Showtime, and they've stayed true to the facts.
		Even though it is classified as fiction, the story is true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really then ought to put some oops behind the Roswell Declaration, eh?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, we surely hope so.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And now it would appear, though there isn't a deal cut yet, it now appears that there may be some announcement concerning the Roswell Declaration in conjunction with Showtime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And we hope that happens.
		Showtime seems to be taking well to that suggestion.
		It's in negotiation or something.
		I can't imagine that they have anything to lose by that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Michael, that's very exciting.
		All right, hold on just a moment.
		We'll come right back to you, Michael.
		That really is very exciting.
		Michael Lindeman of the 2020 group in just a moment.
		Often enough, I'm going to repeat this address.
		All you need to do is send a self-addressed stamped envelope.
		No money.
		Just a self-addressed stamped envelope to Michael Lindeman.
		That's L-I-N-D L-I-N-D-E-R-M-A-N.
		Boy, I hope, or are there two?
		Are there two N's in that?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		It's L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		There's no R in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
		Okay.
		Anything close will do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's 3463 State Street, box 264264, Santa Barbara, California.
		Right?
		And the zip code?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		93105.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		93105.
		I'm getting all this because I know they'll ask for it.
		All right.
		Michael, I would like to begin to take a few telephone calls.
		Are you up for it?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's do it.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air with Michael Lineman.
		Hi.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Hello Lauderdale.
unidentified		This is Fritz from Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fitz from Phoenix.
unidentified		Gentlemen, the questions come up constantly.
		Why are they here?
		What's the reason why there are so many settings over the 46, 47 years?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, it's the cosmic connection.
unidentified		Now, Michael, you have nothing to lose.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You have no credentials to use.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You have a good reputation.
unidentified		But I must say this.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		The UFO community actually has no leadership.
unidentified		There's no guidance, no coordination, no clearinghouse.
		In short, it's staggering around like the four-plant man and the elephant.
		Now, the ETs over the last 40 years have used various brands of conditioning processes, but mankind keeps refusing their calling cards.
		And the media is to blame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fritz, I want you to listen carefully on air because I promise this is not a setup.
		Michael, you mentioned a clearinghouse.
		There's no leadership.
		There's no clearinghouse.
unidentified		There's no central point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't a setup, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I made a comment about this a couple of weeks ago.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we talked about it before the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I know that you can't tell us too much about it, but whatever you can tell us, tell us what's going on.
unidentified		Well, yeah.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Fritz, I'm very cognizant of the problem that you've said.
		I agree with it.
		I and a number of other key people in the field, in fact people who are really quite senior to myself in terms of their contributions to UFO research, are currently in discussion about establishing some kind of an ongoing forum on a major online computer carrier that would allow people who are online,
		people who have computers, to participate in an ongoing way with high-level, high-quality discussions with top researchers.
		And those researchers would be able to discuss amongst themselves in forums which can be broadcast publicly over the network, over the computer network, and then rebroadcast again in print or in other forms of secondary broadcast formats.
		But the point would be that we would begin to have a concentrated online information sharing, information synthesizing process.
		Now this project has been in development for more than six months.
		It is still not ready for public disclosure.
		I have to be rather reticent about it.
		And we are not at all ready to start telling people how to subscribe.
		But I will say this.
		I am now, after recent developments, I am now confident that this project is going to come to fruition, that it will involve a more or less astounding array of high-quality researchers when it comes online.
		And I'm very happy to have played a role in causing this thing to occur.
		And I would love to tell all your listeners right now how they can just sign up and do it.
		Maybe next time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, since you cannot, that was going to be my question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The moment you can, will you come back on the program?
unidentified		I sure will.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I would be delighted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very exciting.
		It's about time.
		And I don't know what else to say other than that.
		It's about time.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindeman.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		This is Bill from Vancouver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Bill.
unidentified		KEXMKVII.
unidentified		I'm lucky.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Mr. Lindemann, I have a question for you.
		Could you briefly tell me what is, since you know so much about weapons, what is this red mercury?
		And also, would either one of you be interested in receiving photos from the newspapers, not only the Oregonian, but there are several community newspapers of Forest Grove of the field, the circles now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, absolutely.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I would very much, I would like to receive anything you've got on the prop circle activity up there.
		I would be very grateful.
		Did you get my...
unidentified		I'd be delighted.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Thanks so much.
unidentified		Okay, and Mr. Bell, could you please also say your P.O. box number on the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll give my address out.
		Michael, we've only got just a very few seconds before the break.
		Red mercury, do you know what that is?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Frankly, I hate to sound stupid, but I don't know about red mercury.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Very hard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's all right.
		Michael, we're at the bottom of the hour, so what I would like you to do is just sort of hold on for a moment.
		We'll both look forward to those clippings.
		I certainly will.
		By the way, my address is Art Bell.
		Post Office Box 4755.
		Post Office Box 4755.
unidentified		Perump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		P-A-H-R-U-N-K.
unidentified		Perump, Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't laugh, football, 89041-4755.
		You're listening to Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
		for Central Illinois.
		This is Talk Radio 102 FM.
unidentified		Talk Radio 102 FM From the Kingdom of Nive, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now, toll-free, at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's our bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now again, here I am.
		Michael Lindeman is my guest.
		Lots of news breaking this morning on this program, and a lot of it very welcome.
		Don't forget the Roswell Declaration.
		Send a self-addressed stamped envelope, please, to Michael Lindeman, L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N, 3463 State Street, box 264, Santa Barbara, California.
		Zip code 93105-93105.
		And back now to Michael Lindman and your calls.
		Michael, are you there?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you ready for more?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
		I want to make a quick comment before you pick up a phone there.
		The gentleman who called about red mercury, one of my friends was standing by here listening to the program and said, don't you remember about the red mercury business that basically has to do with the possible proliferation of illicit nuclear materials out of the former Soviet Union or the satellite Soviet states.
		And I can't honestly, I really can't satisfy the caller's inquiry directly because I really have to confess ignorance as to the real details of the red mercury problem.
		But I will say, generally speaking, that we have to be very careful when we congratulate ourselves on getting past the Cold War.
		We're not anywhere near out of the woods yet, and I think this is really what the Red Mercury scare is about, that there is a great deal of illicit nuclear material floating around, a lot of it missing from the former Soviet states, and even a lot of it missing from our own nuclear situation.
		And of course, one of the big scares today is that nuclear material can get into the hands of terrorism.
		The single most likely way that we would still have nuclear detonations on this planet of a war type would be in the hands of terrorists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And while we're on that subject, Michael, there's a little more breaking news.
		Tomorrow morning, there is a historic and perhaps even troubling first.
		The FBI opens their office in Moscow tomorrow morning.
		And they do it ostensibly to help with Russia's terrible crime problem and to investigate, I believe, the connection between the Russian mafia and the possibility of their getting hold of some nuclear weapons.
		Were you aware of that, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, to be honest with you, I was not aware of the nuclear weapons issue, but I will say this.
		It is a truism in today's world that small, easily portable nuclear weapons would be probably the most valuable black market item imaginable, and that there are arsenals of such weapons in the former Soviet states which have not been guarded up to our suspects.
		And yes, the FBI is interested in this.
		We might even say desperately interested in this.
		And yes, our own intelligence agencies.
		And indeed, I think, in fairness, the governments of the former Soviet states are extremely concerned about this, but the concern alone may not stem the flood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's something I missed here, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought the FBI was a domestic agency.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		If I'm not mistaken, what we have here is something on the order of an advisory office.
		I'm not sure about that.
		But you're right.
		The FBI is undoubtedly a domestic agency.
		But then again, you know, these agencies cross the line.
		The CIA will tell you every single time, if you said, do you do any in-country agencies?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I should say not, but you know, that's a pile of baloney.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		So the fact is, these agencies go where they need to go.
unidentified		And they really aren't governed that powerfully by any code of law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, just before we leave the subject, what about Korea?
		It's big news.
		They're building nuclear weapons.
		Probably already have them.
		Jimmy Carter just came back with almost a piece in our time slap of the paper.
		And now it looks as though the crisis is kind of on the back shelf again.
		Is it really Jimmy Carter came back?
		It says the crisis is over.
		Is it really over, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, I'm not sure, but I will say this.
		I don't believe that any legitimate state has anything to gain by threatening to use nuclear weapons.
		Many states want to possess nuclear weapons as a hedge against their own social disorder.
		North Korea is one of the final bastions of old-line communism.
		As such, they are absolutely anachronistic, and the Pyongyang administration Is looking at the prospect of a total social disaster if they lose their grip on the people.
		It is a very good idea from their point of view to have weapons, but not to use them.
		No legitimate state can afford to use weapons, not even one.
		The only real use for those weapons today is going to be in the hands of terrorists.
		And of course, that will eventually lead to nothing as well, but of course could cause an awful lot of commotion along the way.
		But I think that's where the threat of the weapons comes from, is that these states need them to buttress their own legitimacy with their own people.
		And in that respect, no, the crisis is not over because Korea, North Korea, is on the verge of a social catastrophe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		In other words, are they actually giving up the idea of nuclear weapons, ready to negotiate them away?
		Or are they just stalling for time while the fuel rods they have cool?
		They cannot yet extract plutonium from them.
		And surely the one thing they needed was time.
		Is that what Jimmy Carter and this administration have now given them time?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Not necessarily.
		They may have given them time, yes, but what is more important, what North Korea needs more than time is legitimacy.
		North Korea needs to feel that it is not the odd man out in a world ringed by enemies.
		And if North Korea can be made to feel, if, for example, there is a genuine detente between North and South Korea, if North Korea is welcomed into the fold of economically developing countries in the Far East, then we may see a possibility where the North Koreans do not feel the need to develop nuclear weapons in the way they have felt.
		And I would call that a step in the right direction.
		I can't guarantee it'll happen, but I think that that is where the negotiations are headed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
		Yes, ma'am.
		You're on the air.
		Turn your radio off and tell us where you're calling from.
		Turn your radio off.
unidentified		Hawthorne, Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hawthorne.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, go ahead.
unidentified		Well, I just heard these numbers, this phone number, and I finally decided to call them.
unidentified		I just have one thing I'd like to know, and that is, why do we have to go through the first time you make a phone call, why do you have to go through this process?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean.
unidentified		Well, the first time call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ma'am, we have this number to make it easier for people who are trying to get through the first time.
unidentified		I see.
unidentified		I have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, do you have a question?
unidentified		Not really.
unidentified		Not tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Apparently just wanted to see if she could get through.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Hi.
unidentified		Michael?
		Yes.
		Calling from Portland.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You were in town last week.
		Yes, I was.
		And that was a great lecture you gave with Randall and Schmidt.
		Thank you.
		I've promoted your book quite a bit, six viewpoints.
		I consider it a quintessential book, along with Linda Howe's new book, Glimpses of Other Realities.
		I'm flattered that you would compare my book with hers.
		Hers is magnificent.
		Now, Michael, a few years ago, you made a prediction that as E.T. information became analyzed, it would appear that the human race started independently around the globe.
unidentified		It seems like you've been vindicated.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.
		Try that question again.
		You made a prediction a couple years ago that as a lot of this information became analyzed, that it would be believed that the human race evolved around the globe, not just in the one place, as is commonly believed, but throughout the planet.
		Oh, I see what you're getting at.
		Okay, I see what you're getting at.
		And information in certain science magazines kind of vindicates you that this indeed has come true.
		Well, thank you.
		That's actually a rather subtle point, and I thank you for bringing it up.
		Actually, the argument is far from one.
		It's an extremely complicated situation.
		He's referring to some recent articles in Science and Nature and some other more arcane magazines from the latest research on the evolution from the species we call Homo erectus to the species we call Homo sapiens and where indeed Homo erectus showed up around the planet and whether or not Homo erectus evolved into Homo sapiens in one location or in several different locations, which seems rather less probable.
		And yet there is some information suggesting that Homo erectus actually migrated to various parts of the world out of Africa much earlier than previously thought, and at that stage was able then in all these independent locations eventually to show up as Homo sapiens, which would be an extraordinary thing to occur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would, because it would make the probability of life elsewhere greater, would it not?
		In other words, let me get it straight.
		Are you saying that it came from one central location and migrated to other locations, or that it developed along simultaneous lines at several points?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's actually both of what you said.
		But here's the thing.
		There has long been a theory that our species evolved in Africa and then migrated to many parts of the world.
		Or that there were successive waves of migrations so that, for example, Homo erectus, a predecessor of ours, evolved in Africa and then moved out into various parts of the world, showed up in China, showed up in the steppes of Russia and so forth.
		Then the theory, the old theory continues that the Homo erectus continued to evolve in Africa until it achieved the status of Homo sapiens, and then Homo sapien moved out of Africa into other places and eventually, when it showed up in China, when it showed up in the steppes of Russia and Western Europe and so forth, just killed off the native population of Homo erectus.
unidentified		Well, maybe, but maybe not.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		New information suggests that Homo sapiens showed up in places like China much earlier than we thought, giving rise to the possibility that it evolved there.
unidentified		And that Is a whole new ball of wax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's very exciting.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and what it says is that we, first of all, we really don't understand the evolutionary curve that led to our species.
		It would appear, for example, that Homo sapiens came on the scene rather suddenly, earlier than we thought, and without what we normally would call enough time to get to our very advanced, say if you want to call us advanced, but we're certainly advanced over Homo erectus.
		The question is, how did that jump occur?
		Now, there are people who say it occurred not as a natural consequence of evolution here on this planet, but as a process that was pushed by the intrusion of alien geneticists, if you will, genetic science from off-world.
		Now, that, again, I come back to this concept.
		We're talking now.
		We're way out of the lunatic fringe of view of our research.
		I admit that.
		I think that we have very little evidence in support of this.
		But at the same time, we have huge conundrums that have no easy answer.
		Is it possible that Homo sapiens is, at least in part, the product of genetic engineering?
		And the answer there is, well, dog on it, just maybe the answer is yes.
		And we have to take that seriously.
		Now, for example, if we go back to the Sumerians, as I talked earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you something, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		100 years ago, we'd have burned you for that.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, indeed.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, 100 years from now, they might burn us for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They might.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		We are facing a very, there's a very serious religious challenge here, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there are also a million calls, Michael.
		We've got to get to them.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, KFBR Fairbanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fairbanks, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes, I'm wondering if maybe this thinks that he wrote it during the Great Flood of Noah's Day.
unidentified		And if maybe or not the people are being prepared for what the Bible calls a strong delusion, where when the Christians are raptured, perhaps people will be told that UFOs took them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		Want to tackle that one, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I will say this.
		Not only the Christian religious tradition, but other religious traditions around the world point to this time, or a time very near this time, as a time of tremendous upheaval and tremendous change.
		It is one of the great curiosities of prophecy from around the world that this is a time that the prophets pointed to.
		And it is possible to interpret the rapture that is described in John's Revelation as possibly an alien event or a UFO event.
		Now, I realize the Christians don't want to interpret it that way or some previously.
		I'm not taking issue with that.
		But I will say that we may see some extraordinary occurrences in the years ahead.
		And for some people of religious conviction, it will have the appearance of the fulfillment of prophecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy.
		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Kevin, KEX, Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Portland, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, Mike, I heard when Art described your biography that you went to divinity school at Berkeley.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
unidentified		And I was just wondering, like the last caller, a little bit more on your perception of how this relates with, you know, I don't know what religion you are or anything else, but how this relates with your morality or if you could just delve into that a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, or your theological background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of clash has occurred for you there personally, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I must tell you, in all honesty, it has not confronted my personal theology very much.
		I would like to say on behalf of all people of religious conviction that I don't, whatever we may learn about the truth or the activity of alien intelligence, it will not, in my view anyway, challenge one bit the basic suppositions of a divine creation or a divine creator.
		I have my own personal convictions about that, and I have not heard a single thing anywhere in the UFO research data file that has challenged that for me.
		However, I do think we have some belief systems on this planet which are going to be sorely challenged.
		And we're going to have to be very, very careful in how we interpret these events.
		We're going to have to, you know, first of all, we have to recognize that if there is a God, and I personally believe there is, then the only God that makes sense to me is a God whose imagination is vastly larger than my own.
		And the possibilities that that God may bring forward are possibilities which dwarf my capacity for understanding.
		And I do not want to stand up and say, that can't be because my God would never do such a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, could we be chasing our Creator?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Aha, we could be, in a sense.
		But I want to be very careful about that, too, because, you know, if we, Art, went to another planet that had only primitive life forms or no life forms, one of the things that we might think of doing would be to see if we could get life to grow on that planet.
		If we are talking now about going to the planet Mars, which is supposed to be a dead planet, although there may be evidence to the contrary, if we went to that planet, we would set about to terraform that planet.
		That's already in the written plans.
		If we went to Mars, we would try to make that planet a living planet after our own image.
		It is not the least bit inconceivable that other beings far in advance of ourselves came here and did the same thing.
		But that would not obviate the question of God.
		It would only say that we are part of a very large community of intelligent beings who are very much like us and run experiments like we do and may have moral issues like we do as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael, hold on just one moment.
		We'll come right back to you.
		And when we do, I'm going to ask you about the next, to me, obvious question with regard to Mr. Richard Hoagland, his discoveries not just on Mars now, but on the moon as well with some remarkable photographs.
		But back now to Michael Lennon.
		Michael.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard Hoagland, I've been in close contact with him lately.
		Some incredible discoveries on the moon.
		I know that you have a computer.
		I don't know if you've seen any of the gift pictures of the moon structures yet, but if you have, what are your comments?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had the pleasure of seeing Richard's presentation in Los Angeles a few weeks ago.
		I've Seen his photos.
		I want to say, first of all, I think Richard is a real pathfinder.
		He's a real groundbreaker.
		I don't agree with everything he says, but I have respect for his courage in bringing forward these ideas.
		I think his basic concepts about the face on Mars are pretty well established.
		And I was slow to agree with that, but I will say there's a report that your listeners should read that really nails it down in a way that to me is indisputable, and that's a report called the McDaniel Report.
		It was published by North Atlantic Books out of Berkeley in 1993.
		It is very important, and your readers should read it, because it establishes that NASA knows that there is something up on Mars, and that the high probability is that that is an artificial construct which suggests the possibility that a humanoid type of life form Richard Holgum's analysis there,
		course is is is uh no I don't have the detail that some of the other photos have got, but there are some structures there that really oughtn't to be there, and it takes somebody like Richard to explain why they shouldn't be there, and that has to do with the way erosion occurs on the moon.
		All the surfaces of the moon are of basically two kinds.
		Either relatively new impact features, basically from the impact of meteoroids that cause craters, and for a time, those features are rather jagged.
		But over time, because of the constant rain of small meteoroids, you get a wearing down, and all of the older features of the moon are extremely smooth, undulating features.
		In that picture, a couple of extraordinarily odd, out-of-place things.
		And here again, we have this concept of out-of-place things, things that oughtn't to be there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Less than a minute now.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, we're talking about especially the one most impressive to me, and I think to others, is the so-called shard, a tower of rock which rises straight off the surface of the moon to a height of almost five miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		We've never built anything that big, Art.
		We have no idea how.
		And the thing, if it is a thing, as it appears to be in several photographs taken from several different spacecraft at several different times, if it's really there, then it is most, most unusual.
		It shouldn't be there.
		And we have to ask, where in the world does such a thing come from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And why.
		All right, stand by.
		We'll come back to you right after the break at the top of the hour and try to get to more calls this next hour.
		My guest, Michael Lindemann, you're listening to Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		What you think during our local talk radio programming, call Star 102 there.
		But due to satellite transmission problems, Talk Radio 102 FM presents a previously recorded Arc Bell Dreamland program.
		The Arc Bell Dreamers From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now, toll-free, at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295 in the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now again, I'm here.
		So is Michael Lindemann.
		Here's a facts.
		Art great show.
		Thanks to both you and Michael.
		E.T.s.
		UFOs.
		Really art.
		I told you the Bible is full of this info.
		And of course, the rapture will simply be a massive beam-me-up Scotty.
		And under the category of ask and ye shall receive with regard to red mercury, somebody sent me an entire article that's going to bear some examination entitled Red Mercury.
		Is there a pure fusion bomb for sale?
		And so I'm going to do a little reading on that several pages here.
		Three pages, my fax limit, by the way.
		And several more faxes.
		Without time to get to them, we'll kind of try and fit them in as we go.
		Michael, are you there?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		I think that we ought to pay a lot of attention to the telephones this hour, if we can.
		So let's try it.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Linneman.
unidentified		Good evening.
		Yes, sir.
		Did this happen?
		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So let's try it.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lineman.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Yes, sir, did it?
		I'm from Wisconsin in Milwaukee.
		And one night, everybody in Milwaukee saw this one UFO going over the city.
		It was like it was playing a joke, but me and some friends of mine were given some papers.
		Do you remember Stephen Schwartz's experiments with the Navy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When did you see this UFO?
unidentified		72 or 73, I think.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you say everybody in Milwaukee saw it, was it?
unidentified		And because I remembered how Dr. Heinemann, Heinek told us how to judge how far it was by our thumb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		By holding your thumb up, I guess, huh?
		Michael, there have been a lot of sightings like this, like the one she talked about in Milwaukee, where massive numbers of people have seen something.
		Is that part of the great body of evidence that leads us toward the inescapable conclusion that they are here?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, I would have to say it is.
		You know, it's very interesting, first of all, for this caller just to know.
		I was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
		Sad to say, I left in 1970, in 1967, and didn't hear about the great Milwaukee UFO sighting of 1972.
		So if she has any newspaper clips, I'd love to have them.
		But I would like to point out that that period, 1972, 1973, was an absolute peak period for UFO and alien contact experiences all over the country.
		And some very classic cases occurred roughly between 1972 and 1975.
		For example, the fantastic abduction case in Pascavoula, Mississippi, which occurred in, I believe, 1973.
		The Travis Walton abduction, which occurred in 1975.
		Lots and lots of other events which occurred all around the country.
		Of course, Linda Howe would point out that that period of time was a very hot time for abductions around the country.
		The mid-70s is one of the peak periods for that.
		So, yes, we see, this is one of the aggravating things about the phenomenon, that it seems to come in waves.
		And we've seen some classic waves, and that was part of one of those waves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we in a peak or a valley now?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, as regards sightings of craft, the classic sightings type, according to the Center for UFO Studies, we're in a valley, oddly enough.
		However, it would appear that the phenomenon is changing and that the nature of contact is changing.
		We are no longer seeing as many lights in the sky, but we're seeing a lot more grays, a lot more grays in the bedroom.
		That's a very different kind of encounter.
		And I think it says something.
		We can't prove this, but I'll just go on.
unidentified		Okay.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		They have to do something.
		But second of all, I think the aliens have something to do with it.
		They are modulating a process.
		And I think that they have shown us lots and lots of lights in the sky for a couple of decades.
		You know, back in the 60s, it was very unpopular to even mention that there might be somebody on board for crying out loud.
		You know, you were a bit of a lunatic, even in UFO researcher.
		You said, well, what about the people who are driving the thing?
		And that has, of course, changed a lot.
		But it wasn't until the mid-70s that we started to get comfortable with that.
		And now, of course, come mid-80s, we're comfortable with the idea, well, comfortable is not quite the right word, but at least we're getting used to the idea that there may indeed be beings who are coming and meeting us, experimenting with us, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are conversant with the idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, because of all the programs, sightings, contact, the one coming on Roswell, programs like that, we're beginning to get to be conversant with regard to the idea.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Good evening, John from Richland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richland, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, John.
unidentified		The facts on Red Mercury, I just sent you that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		What I wanted to say was it's a cheap man's way of making neutron bombs, and the stuff really does exist.
		But I'd like to ask Mr. Lindemann a question in that regard.
		Is that do you think that some of this weapons development is still based on some perhaps malevolent intentions on the visitors from wherever they may be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of a natural extension of what you were saying earlier, Michael.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why are we developing all this weaponry?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if they're warm, fuzzy little guys.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me not be up as saying they're warm, fuzzy little guys.
		I didn't say that, and I'm not sure that's true.
		I would say there's a diversity of types probably present, and that some of them don't pose a threat, but some of them possibly do pose a threat.
		Certainly back in the 1940s and early 50s, our government, that is to say the secret faction that was dealing with this information, was quite convinced that we were dealing with some kind of an invasion, and they wondered if there was a military response.
		They tried a few tests to see if there was a military response, and they quickly learned that if we approached the subject in a military fashion, we would get blown out of the sky.
		There was really no contest.
		Recently, a military man said to me that they stopped interpreting it as a military problem quite a long time ago for the simple reason that there is no military response.
		That does not mean there isn't a military problem, but it does mean that we are not properly positioned to take a military action which actually gets results we want.
		And therefore, it's a different problem.
		Therefore, it's a getting used to it problem.
		It's a handling the social perceptions problem.
		It's perhaps a diplomatic problem.
		There are people who think we're in diplomatic contact.
		I can't prove that, but I have heard some stories which I think may be true.
		So we're faced here with what do you do if you are up against overwhelming odds?
		If you are not only the military of some little third world republic, but you are actually, you are the combined military of all the superpowers on earth.
		You have all the guns and all the money, and you know there isn't a clue.
		There isn't a chance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know this.
		I wouldn't go up to Michael Tyson and threaten to punch his lights out.
		And I guess it's very similar.
		You don't take a military attitude towards somebody who can.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That's right, who laughs at you and then squashes you down like a bug.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That's right, exactly.
		That's the problem.
		Now, there is no sign, this is my personal interpretation of all available data that I have seen.
		There is no sign of an intention to take over the planet.
		There is no sign of overt hostility, but there are clear signs that if we initiate hostilities, we learn right quick who's in charge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindeman.
		Good evening.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Transpass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Transpass, Oregon, yes.
unidentified		I personally think that aliens are a lot of garbage.
		And the reason being that the human mind I see is the most powerful tool in the universe.
		And because of its power, it can create or conjure up or any number of ways you want to express it these phenomena.
		Now, the other thing is that in addition to that, I see that man has always been in the universe, on the earth, and because of that,
		there have been many cultures, there have been many civilizations, and quite possibly these artifacts and phenomena that we've been finding are a result of these past civilizations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What about it, Michael?
		Monsters from the id?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I didn't interpret him as saying only monsters from the id.
		I think that's one possibility.
		Basically, if we look at all the data, I think there are three broad possibilities.
		First of all, we have an absolutely extraordinary degree of human delusion.
		Delusion in people who test normal, who test intelligence, who test non-pathological.
		That's one possibility.
		Possibility number two, some governmental or quasi-governmental entity is in possession of an extraordinary array of absolutely bizarre technologies, and they're using them with a vengeance all over the place with no visible agenda.
		But that's a second possibility.
		Third possibility is aliens.
		Any way you slice it, we've got a serious problem here.
		Neither one of those possibilities is trivial.
		We have to find out what it is.
		And to treat it with a completely open mind, we have to accept that some cases may fall in any one of those boxes.
		But I will say this.
		On balance, I believe data shows that the best probability is that some cases are alien.
		And I will stand on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Good evening.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Michael, let me turn down my radio here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Thank you.
		Please do that.
		Turn it off.
		And also tell us.
unidentified		I'm calling from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle, all right.
unidentified		Okay, I got a couple of questions here.
unidentified		Can I shoot with them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shoot with them, yes.
unidentified		Okay, first of all, that Roswell thing, that declaration.
		My phone might be bugged, by the way, because of that.
		I hope you understand that, okay, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		No problem.
unidentified		All right.
		I told the person about it that has to write to you.
		He needs to know if he has to tell you what he saw.
		No, he doesn't have to tell me anything.
		He just asked for the declaration.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Just ask for the declaration.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		He can tell me if he wants to, but he doesn't have to tell me anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just send a self-address, stamp envelope, and that's all you need to do, ma'am.
unidentified		Okay, then the second thing I needed to tell is there was a woman from Portland.
		I've had a long time trying to get through to you.
		There's a woman from Portland that saw some circles in the land.
		And I don't know if I can get her phone number or if I can just report that on the phone here.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you mean that the crop circles that have been reported in the Portland area over the last couple of weeks, the recent reports?
unidentified		Yes, because in Wisconsin, back in, oh, I think it was about 89 or 1990, they were having a lot of crop circles in their land, too.
		And they sounded dignified, like this former caller that just called and saw that was a bunch of crack, that there were DUFOs.
		It was a small town and a lot of dignified folks.
		And they saw these vessels and they saw circles in their crop lands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we're very well aware of the Portland crop circles, aren't we, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we are.
		But I think it's important to note, first of all, the crop circles have been occurring in this country in quite a few different states from time to time over the last number of years.
		It's not just an English phenomenon, of course.
		Now, we also have to say that we now know from the English experience that some crop circles, including some of the very unusual, large, highly ornate crop formations, are hoaxes.
		It is possible to hoax some of these, but it is also next to impossible, according to our best information, to hoax some of the features of a genuine circle, such as the work of Dr. W.C. Levengood out of Pine Landia Labs, the work that he's done showing the changes in the cell pit structure,
		showing changes in growth rates, and germination rate, various changes, even changes in the electromagnetic behavior of the plant materials, saying that this is the stuff that can't be hoaxed.
		It takes real work to test this stuff.
		Now, that testing has not been done, to my knowledge, on the Oregon material, but Linda mentioned earlier that she's trying to get some samples.
		It would be important to find that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		I'm sure it's on the way.
		On the 20th.
		203 line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Art, how you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Albuquerque.
unidentified		Mike from Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Mr. Lindemann.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		My father was reading to me from a book by a man named George Andrews this afternoon.
		And in the book, it states that in one particular county in Pennsylvania in the 1970s, in a one-year period, there was over 130 UFO sightings where there was an association with Bigfoot.
		Are you familiar with any of this?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I confess I'm not familiar with the Pennsylvania sightings, but I am very definitely familiar with claims of Bigfoot in association with some UFO sightings.
		Bigfoot, of course, is another of these extremely strange anomalous occurrences.
		There's good evidence that there is such a thing as Bigfoot, the Sasquatch up in the Seattle and Northwest area there, and, of course, other manifestations of the same phenomenon in other parts of the world, other parts of the country.
		Native Americans have been reporting this for hundreds of years.
		There are a few cases, and Linda Howe is someone who's brought some of these cases forward, where there have been sightings of a seemingly Bigfoot-type character in association even with the cattle mutilation phenomenon.
		So there may be a link.
		I can't prove it, but I think so.
unidentified		Okay, are you familiar with the work of Dr. Grover Krantz?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Can't say I am.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
		He's an anthropologist, professor of anthropology at the University of Washington.
		Right.
		And he has a mass, he's been studying the Sasquatch phenomena for a long time.
		And it seems now that there's several scientists that are no longer looking at the Sasquatch phenomena as let's prove its existence, you know, an anthropological standpoint.
		It's now being studied in a zoological standpoint.
		Right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
unidentified		Well, the.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's a rhetorical question.
		Of course, it's not.
		Well, they know it's there, but now the question is, what is it?
unidentified		Yeah, the biggest piece of evidence is the dermal ridges.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Are the fingerprints on the feet?
		That'd be virtually impossible to fake.
		And they're finding them left and right.
		I was curious if you, you know, if there was a large connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		And you do find there to be a connection.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, what I would like to say is that since Bigfoot is a little outside my range of personal study, I would only say that there have been some researchers who have established a possible connection.
		I don't rule it out.
		I think it's a very provocative possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, since we've asked about that, how about Loch Ness?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		And after that, let's bring in.
		Let's bring in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there has been serious scientific inquiry in Loch Ness, and they've had readings.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I don't want To make light of Loch Ness, I personally would be thrilled to bits if the Loch Ness monster exists, and there's a darn good chance it does, not only there, but in Lake Champlain and the Ogopogo and some lake up in, I don't know, British Columbia or wherever it is.
		It is absolutely likely, Art, that there are lots of bizarre life forms on this planet that we haven't found.
		Every now and then something washes up on a beach on some shore of some ocean.
		We find we've with it a whole new class of whale or a whole new class of squid or some other creature we've never seen before, eels 100 feet long.
		It's quite possible.
		I'm not sure, however, that there is any established connection between lock nests and UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air with Michael Lineman.
		Hello, where are you?
unidentified		Yes, this is Dan from the University District in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dan.
unidentified		Hi.
		And Michael, it's been a few months since I've talked to you, but I was the one who called asking questions about the reptilians a few months ago, and you were very kind and gracious in giving me your time on that information.
		I'm wondering, have you ever exchanged information with Mark McCandlish?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, in fact, we had an interesting exchange on this very show a couple of months ago.
unidentified		I must have missed it then, because I was very fascinated by the message.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, Caller, that's what led to the McCandlish appearance on this program.
unidentified		I see, okay.
unidentified		Yeah, I thought he had a lot to say, and I'll go ahead and hang up, and I wonder if you could just say a few words about his information on UFO technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we'll do that.
		Michael, hold on just one moment.
		Michael Lindemann is my guest.
		We'll be right back.
		For those of you who are having a hard time hearing it or straining to hear it on some distant radio station, my advice would be to call your local radio affiliate, the local radio station in your area, and inquire about Dreamland.
		And toward that end, if you would like assistance, let me give you our network telephone number, and they will give you assistance in trying to get Dreamland on your radio station.
		It is Area Code 503-664-8829.
		Now, do not call it now.
		Call it beginning Tuesday during the business week.
		That's Area Code 503-664-8829.
		Michael, are you there?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a lot of time before the bottom of the hour.
		Let's try a quick call on the toll-free line.
		You're on the air with Michael Lineman.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, this is Tom from San Diego KOGO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Tom.
unidentified		Hi.
		I am an ESP researcher, and of course, I'd like to have a couple questions with Mr. Liberman.
		Edgar Casey speaks of the future contact with UFOs, and ESP research indicates that there is going to be sizable earth activity in the near future.
		How does this coincide with your 2020 predictions of what we are going to be living through in the next five years with the rings of fire that are very active right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big earth movements, predictions by people like Casey, true?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I can say is that there is no geological precedent that we know of for the kind of earth changes that have been predicted by some people.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		For example, Gordon Michael Scallion, who firmly believes that the western third of the United States will simply be inundated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I am not in any position to say these people are right or wrong.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		What I will say is that the probability that they're right is extremely low unless something absolutely unprecedented occurs on this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is, of course, what they're predicting.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That is exactly what they're predicting.
		I have to work from known information, known trends, and I would have to say that in my view, the likelihood of earth changes on that scale is extremely small.
		On the other hand, we know that the West Coast is a sitting duck for major earthquakes.
		No question.
		I live in Santa Barbara.
		I'm going to move.
		I tell you, I think this area is in for some serious seismic activity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael, very quickly, about a minute left.
		UFO Technologies, going back a call.
		He wanted your comment on Mark McCandlish and some of what he has to say.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I'd like to comment on that in some length, so let's do it after the break.
		But I will say very briefly, Mark has alerted me to two important things.
		Number one, that it is quite probable that our government is in possession of what he refers to as alien replication vehicles.
		We can say more about that.
		And he has alerted me to a new generation of lighter-than-aircraft that we have built, which have nothing to do with alien technology, but which are mistaken for UFOs, and in particular for the very large diamond, or not diamond, but triangular-shaped UFOs sighted in the western states.
		It may very well be that this is a lighter-than-air conventional technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would believe that because it certainly would fit the one sighting that I've had.
		We will also give you the address again.
		Get a pencil for the Roswell Declaration when we come back.
unidentified		So get a pencil and a piece of paper and get ready.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is the CBC Radio Network in Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to Dreamland on Talk Radio 102 FM.
unidentified		Dreamland on Talk Radio From the Kingdom of Nine.
		You're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free, 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
		Tell you what, a couple things.
		One, we're going to restrict our toll-free line to east of the Rocky Mountains for the next 25 minutes of the program.
		Remember, only those of you east of the Rocky Mountains on the toll-free line at 1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies only.
		Now, in addition, I do want to get this out again.
		Very, very important.
		The Roswell Declaration, to get it, to sign it, to be part of it, all you've got to do is send a self-addressed stamped envelope, no money, self-addressed stamped envelope, to Michael Lindeman, 3463 State Street, box 264, Santa Barbara, California.
		Zip code 93105-93105.
		Is that right, Michael?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Here's a fact that just came in.
		When Michael Lindemann mentioned the newly discovered age of the Sphinx, he must have been referring to the show broadcast a few months ago called The Mystery of the Sphinx.
		In the show, it was also reported that a new chamber had been discovered at the base of the Sphinx, as had been predicted by Casey.
		Unfortunately, the process of getting permission to open that chamber was being met with resistance from the Egyptian bureaucracy.
		Please ask Michael if he has any information on whether there's been any progress in this area.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm glad your listeners informed.
		That is everything he said is true.
		Unfortunately, I do not have an update.
		I am in touch with some people who are monitoring that situation very closely, and I would like to check with them and perhaps comment on that next time you and I talk, Art.
		And you could even pass it along to your audience if I'm not on the program.
		But right now, I'm not aware of any progress, and the person who faxed it is absolutely correct.
unidentified		The Egyptian government is very much resisting this.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's a reason for this.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		It's not just a question of whether you just go digging in Egyptian soil without permission.
unidentified		Either it could...
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Because if they open that chamber and break loose a library of information that is more than 10,000 years old, there is no telling how many sacred cows will get butchered over that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, we'll stay in touch on that issue.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Lindemann.
		This is Todd in C-Tech.
		You've made repeated reference to Zachariah Sitchin and his work, The Twelfth Planet, where he states that the ancient Sumerian tablets, of which they've found thousands, state that the Nephilim, as they're called, came to Earth and genetically engineered Homo sapiens from Homo erectus.
		How do you feel about Mr. Sitchin's statements and the accuracy of them as compared to the Sumerian tablets?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, you're asking me, can I read Sumerian and can I interpret the huge amount of Sumerian information in the manner of Mr. Sitchin?
		The fact is I cannot.
		And very few people on earth can.
		So the fact is that very few people actually challenge Mr. Sitchin on the level of his scholarship.
		They certainly challenge his conclusions because they're outrageous.
		We can say that without any, you know, without any quibble.
		But the fact is that Mr. Sitchin is among a handful of people qualified to interpret this material.
		And I find his interpretation most fascinating.
unidentified		But I really can't comment on it more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindeman.
		Good evening.
		Where are you calling from?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		St. Louis, yes, sir.
unidentified		Mr. Lindeman.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		During your talks, you mentioned the continuity of government program.
		Yes.
		I have a question.
		Your partner, Ralph Steiner, in a radio show on the Pacifica station of Berkeley a few years ago showed military-alien collaboration similar to Bottle of Czar.
		Could this be a major reason for the continuing cover-up?
		Well, if it were happening, I would say that would be a very cover-uppable kind of fact, okay?
		Now, I can't say it's happening, but I will say that certainly the United States has built enormous underground bases.
		Whether there are aliens in them or not remains to be seen.
		However, I would like to point out a new book that will not necessarily be well known to your listening audience that I think is very important.
		It's called Taken, and it's subtitled Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda.
		It is by a woman named Carla Turner.
		And by the way, Carla would make a fine guest for a future show.
		Carla is a Ph.D. professor, herself an abductee, as is her husband.
		She has written a book about eight people, six of whom believe there were human beings working in some cooperative fashion with alien abductors.
		This, of course, is an extraordinary claim, but Carla is no fool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, can you get me contact information?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I sure can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Good.
		Well, look forward to it.
		She sounds good.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lineman.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, where are you, sir?
unidentified		Oh, around North Carolina, listening on WCRYO, UCAP arena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
unidentified		I have a question for your guest.
		This harks back to a comment that someone else had made earlier in the show regarding the differences of opinion, let's say, among the UFO research community.
		Recently, I read Jacques Vallée's book, Revelations, in which he...
		Everyone from John Lear to Bill Cooper to Major Kehoe, everybody else.
		Vali is considered the preeminent ufoologist in the world today.
		And yet reading his book, Revelations, you come away, his basic thesis is that much of the ballihoo about UFOs and abductions and so forth is part true.
		There's something going on out there, but much of it is generated by the military intelligence complex.
		And they've so well infiltrated and co-opted the research efforts that it's hard to tell anymore who's telling the truth, what's manufactured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, I get the message.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Can you comment on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, please go right.
		It's a good one.
		And by the way, some of the people he mentioned are not at the center of the scientific community investigating this phenomenon.
unidentified		That is true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Michael.
unidentified		All right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Bottom line, I have great respect for Jacques Valley.
		Jacques Valley is an important, you might say, an almost a dissident voice in the UFO research today, but he operates at an almost unique level of subtlety.
		And for that reason, he cannot be ignored, even if he is making statements that make everybody angry.
		And he does that on a regular basis.
		But the fact is that Dr. Valais is basically saying our analysis tends to be too simplistic, too linear, too Western scientistic.
		We are trying too hard to squeeze a round peg in a square hole.
		This ufology business is not a bunch of aliens that look approximately like us driving around in Toyota spacecraft.
		It isn't like that at all, he says.
		It's much more complicated, much more subtle.
		And he's right.
		I'm convinced he's right.
		Now, that does not mean that everything he says is right.
		I think Dr. Vallet takes pot shots, sometimes because he's aggravated at the stupidity of some ufologists.
		So I would say read his book with respect, but also take it with a grain of salt.
		Revelations in particular is a book flawed by a number of simple factual inaccuracies, which he has had the graciousness to cop to on a few occasions.
		But Dr. Valley, if nothing else, has done us a service by saying, look, it isn't all that simple.
		Guess again.
		And he's also pointed out that there may be a control system operating in which the aliens themselves are manipulating our perception of who they are.
		And the caller also pointed out that the military has made such a hodgepodge out of the various situations that it's hard to tell who's telling the truth and who isn't.
		There's no question that that statement is true.
		Indeed, that is the very nature of disinformation.
		Jacques Polly is right when he says that the whole field is loaded from top to bottom with deception.
		That deception is coming from at least three places.
		Place number one, our own military, our own government structure, which has had a huge stake in all of this deception.
		Number two, the aliens are foisting deception on us without a doubt.
		And third of all, of course, each and every one of us personally is prone to self-deception.
		This is an easy place to get completely screwed up and deluded, and we have to stop every couple of minutes and say, wait a minute, maybe I'm dead wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all of that together creates an awfully large noise level, doesn't it?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
		A very large noise level.
		The signal is a very hard one to find, and you really have to hold out.
		I always say to my audiences, please do not jump to the ready answer.
		You need, above all, in this field, a high tolerance for ambiguity.
		We don't have the answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Linda from Apple Valley, Washington.
		Yes.
		My question is, for Michael, is it possible that this wave is because it takes them such a long time to get here and get back?
		And what does he think about different dimensions?
		All right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question of dimensions is an important one.
		It raises all kinds of philosophical as well as physical science level questions that I'm not prepared to answer.
		Is it possible that they're flitting in and out of dimensions?
		Sure, it's just as possible that they're doing that as it is that they're traveling through time, which I regard as a possibility, or that they're using some sort of hyperdrive.
		I mean, for heaven's sakes, for the last 25 years, we've been hearing that the Star Trek people have something that they call warp.
		And indeed, if we were ever going to really travel around the stars, we would need something like that.
		Jules Verne, 100 years ago, said we'd be flying through the skies or, you know, traveling in submarines under the ice caps.
		He was right, as it happens, but that was 100 years ago.
		Now, are we going to come up with this technology?
unidentified		Maybe.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Have they come up with it?
		Quite probably.
		Does it take them a really long time to come from star A to here?
		I doubt it.
		I don't think we would see the numbers we see if it was really a matter of them traveling years and years and years to get here.
		I think that is extremely improbable.
		There must be some other way to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael.
		Hold on just a sec.
		We'll be right back to you.
		Michael Linneman is my guest.
		Still time to get in if you would like to try.
		I know the lines are awfully clogged, but be patient.
		You will get through.
		Alex Linneman, where are you calling from?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here we go again.
		Short on time now.
		You're on the air with Michael Linneman.
		Where are you calling from, please?
		No, you're not.
		We'll go here to the wildcard line.
		You're on the air with Michael Linneman.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Eric.
unidentified		This is Matt from Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Matt.
unidentified		Hi, Michael.
unidentified		Great show, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Dan from the University District asked Michael, I guess, on another occasion about the reptiles.
unidentified		I'd just like to get Michael's input on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael.
		I'm sorry about the what?
		The reptiles.
unidentified		Oh.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are several kinds of aliens often described.
		The most commonly described in this country, of course, is the grays, the slightly built gray characters with the large black eyes.
		The humanoid type, the type that looks essentially like us, is the next most often reported.
		And then the third most often reported are so-called reptilians.
		Humanoid type beings that have reptilian-type features.
		That is, perhaps scaly skin or skin of a greenish tone, a very muscular build, large claws in some cases, large teeth, odd facial features.
		Do these beings exist?
		Well, I would say the answer is I don't know, but the reports are very, very frequent.
		And so if these people who are reporting them aren't crazy, then we have to assume it's possible that they could exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would be my least favorite if you're talking about ones to meet up with.
		I'm not wild about reptiles anyway.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, why should we know that aliens do actually exist?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
		Okay, well, I guess we just missed that one.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
unidentified		Hello, this is Mike Culling from Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Mike.
unidentified		I'm a MUFON member up here, and we're busily getting out these Roswell Declarations also.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Great.
unidentified		And I just wanted to throw in an idea.
		What we're doing is not only selling the MUFON headquarters, we're sending a copy, duplicate copy to each one of our representatives.
		And I wanted to, if possible, give out my Phone number because anybody in Washington State who wants to call me, I'll pay the postage and send a copy of a blank declaration to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without checking it out, I can't just let you give out a phone number.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm terribly sorry.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Let me just think about it.
unidentified		Well, I'll tell you what, if they want to come to the MUFON meeting at the Bothow Library next T on July 16th, they can get a copy there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
		Let me just comment real quickly that part of the overall strategy is that when there is a cutoff date, which is sometime in the late fall, I don't know exactly when, at that time, all of the declarations that have been received are going to be compiled, and they will be divided out according to congressional districts so that copies of the declaration will be sent.
		The number that were sent from any district will be sent to that district representative, and the entire thing will also be sent to key members of the administration, including the president and the vice president.
		So, in effect, caller, you're doing something that's a little redundant, but I think it should be done.
		I think your representatives should know, and I applaud your effort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
		Good evening.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, goodness gracious, I finally got on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, where are you?
unidentified		That pushed pre-dial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Spokane, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		And we're kind of remiss because we don't have any sightings around here very much.
		All we had was somebody shooting the hell out of about 21 people at the Air Force Base, and then about four days later, a B-52 crashed at the same place, and nobody mentioned a thing about it.
		On the other hand, I think this is fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, sir, on my regular program, my syndicated program, we talked a great deal about what happened up there.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Good.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I missed it.
unidentified		Yes, you did.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I wish you were on more in this genre every night instead of more toward the political thing, but that's another thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You just complained about lack of coverage, and I just told him we covered it, and now you're saying you want this.
unidentified		I'm not saying you covered it.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		No, you shouldn't have covered it.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		The media should have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, do you have a question?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You're a special entity.
		I don't have a question so much as I'm just in total awe at what's going on.
		Most of my experiences are spiritual in nature.
		And, gosh, this opens up a whole new area of bewilderment to me.
		What can we expect in the future?
		I mean, is this the strange goings-on in the sky that we're not supposed to look at that described in the Bible or what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there is a good question.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		Well, I think we touched on that earlier.
		There are, of course, many prophecies from the Bible as well as other scriptures around the world indicating this is a very special time.
		There may be events that occur over the next couple of years that have the appearance of the fulfillment of prophecy.
		I believe we are going to gradually, we are, as I said earlier, coming of age in the cosmic neighborhood.
		We are learning that we are part of a very broad, very diverse neighborhood of cosmic intelligences.
		Many of these beings do not look like us.
		Some seem to look rather like us, but we're just getting to know the neighbors, and we, in fact, are the new kids on the block.
		It's going to be a very interesting time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it will.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindman.
		Hello, where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Southern California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi.
		I had two questions.
		The first one is about the planet Jupiter and the impact of the comet Levy Schumacher that's supposed to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shoemaker-Levy 9, right.
		The remnants of it.
		Yes, good question.
unidentified		And, of course, you know, what sort of activity may we expect to see from here on Earth or up in the sky?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		We're going to have to hold it there.
		We're so short on time.
		Shoemaker-Levy 9, the impact of the pieces.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, as Linda said earlier, the impact will begin approximately July 16th.
		This is considered to be the greatest astronomical event of the century.
		Every telescope that is available on Earth will be looking at it.
		And, of course, we also have the Galileo spacecraft out near Jupiter right now that is going to try its best to take a look at it.
		Part of the problem is that the events are occurring on the backside of Jupiter with respect to our vantage point.
		However, interestingly, the impact points are only approximately 10 minutes away from the horizon because Jupiter turns very fast.
		So they're hoping that they're going to see very large amounts of residual light and other manifestations of energy.
		They are calling these impacts the largest explosions that have ever occurred in recorded history inside of our solar system.
		Now, what will that mean on our planet?
		It ranges from, depending on who you ask, it ranges from, it won't mean anything at all except a darn good astronomical event, out to predictions by some people who may be a little bit shrill in their notions that this could have very large, even catastrophic events, that it could precipitate, for example, earth changes.
		People think that this may be a trigger.
		I, frankly, strongly doubt that scenario.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I, Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it's a big snowball or is it a hunk of iron?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		You mean what's coming in?
unidentified		Yeah.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to our best estimates, it's closer to a snowball than a hunk of iron.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, all right.
		We're so short on time.
		Michael, the Roswell Declaration, so important.
		One more time, give everybody, please, your address so they can get it.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Send a stamped address self-envelope to, say that again, Ace.
		A stamped self-addressed envelope.
		There we go.
		To Michael Lindemann.
		That's L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
		The address is 3463 State Street, Box 264, Santa Barbara, California, 93105.
		And when you get the declaration, I would appreciate it if you would read it, sign it, send it in to the address on the declaration.
		But even better yet, when you get it, if you know people who might want a copy, make copies first, hand them out, and then sign it and send it in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you not only don't object to making copies, please encourage it.
		And what about people who will make copies and then fax it to other people?
		Is that legitimate as well?
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		I see no problem with that.
		Make sure that they get both sides.
		However, it's a two-sided document.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Michael, we're out of time.
		That's it.
		Another wonderful appearance on the program.
		And, of course, we will have you back again.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much, Art.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		It's been a blast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you get a chance to supply me with contact information on Carla Turner, I'd sure love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will do that.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Happy to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael, thank you.
michael lindemann ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Michael Lindemann, and I'm sorry, everybody.
		There is never enough time on this program.
		There is never enough time.
		If you would like a copy of this program or any Dreamland program, the number to call is Area Code 503-664-7966.
		Once again, and you can call it 24 hours a day, the magic number is Area Code 503-664-7966.
		They will get you a copy of any Dreamland program we've done since the inception.
		Thank you all.
		Good night.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not backed.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

▲