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July 3, 1994 - Art Bell
02:17:40
Dreamland with Art Bell - Michael Lindemann - Looks To The Future
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Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
It certainly is.
Hi, everybody.
It's Sunday evening, means another Dreamland.
This will be a good one.
My guest is Michael Paul Lindemann, head of the 20-20 group, who looks to the future.
Based on present trends, in other words, based on what's happening right now and what's going to happen then.
And he'll be along in short order.
First, I'd like to welcome a brand new affiliate to the program.
That would be 3WI.
What a great set of call letters.
3WI, Ian Brainerd.
Minnesota.
That's wonderful.
That's actually W-W-W-I, and they call it 3-W-I, and I think that's great.
Brainerd, Minnesota, welcome to the program.
You'll get the idea of what it's all about as we proceed.
There is live listener participation, so stand by, and in due course, we'll have the telephone lines open.
A regular feature of this program is a gal named Linda Moulton Howe, who you may recall last week had a death in the family, the passing of her father, and was not with us last week, is back this week in Philadelphia.
And so, without hesitation, let us go to Linda Moulton Howe in Philadelphia and find out how she is.
Linda, good evening.
Hi Art.
I really appreciate your acknowledgement of my father last week.
The funeral on Wednesday turned out to be a large assemblage of people and aviation from all over.
Uh, in Idaho and other parts of the country, because he had been very involved in, uh, the building of airports for private aviation, and it was, um, I know someplace, uh, he's out there now flying.
So, and is out of his pain, and I'm, for that, I'm grateful.
We are also today two weeks away and counting from the Shoemaker-Levy comet pieces.
That's right.
that are to begin, according to astronomers, piece by piece by piece plunging into
the gaseous, hydrogen gaseous surface of Jupiter.
And that should begin somewhere on July 16th.
So we will try to stay up with what's happening there.
And for that reason, I have Richard Hoagland coming on the program July 10th.
All right, and I will also try to stay up with some astronomer colleagues
to give a report that following Sunday.
And two weeks ago, on June 21st, Dennis Claiborne in Garnet, Kansas,
found his second mutilation since August on a farm in Garnet, Kansas,
about 60 miles outside of Kansas City, Kansas, Kansas City, Missouri,
where the two cities are across the river.
And just three or four days before he found those two mutilated animals, or the one mutilated animal that was following the August one, In Oregon, people were beginning to report to sheriff's deputies in Washington County, outside of Portland, a series of circles that were appearing along US Highway No.
26.
I just heard something about that, Linda.
I have received a photograph of it and from the Oregonian newspaper it says that in the waist-high wheat was a circle about 35 feet across.
It was ringed by a second circle of completely untouched wheat that was standing.
And that was surrounded by a ring.
And when you look at the picture, it is a flattened circle that is about 35 feet across,
surrounded by a larger ring.
And then in four different compass points, northeast, southwest, are four smaller circles
placed at those compass points outside of the circle and the ring.
And they were placed on the north side of a hill just high enough to be seen from Highway
US 26.
And there was a point where the Washington County Sheriff's deputies were having quite
a challenge trying to control traffic because literally hundreds of people were stopping
with camcorders and cameras to take pictures of this formation.
And there was one man, Chris Ullman, he said, how did they get the circle so precise in
the dark?
It would seem like you would need a light source.
This is quite a precise one and we're now waiting to see if anything...
More like this will occur in the United States.
So if there are any listeners in any area that have some access to going out to where there are any kind of food and cereal crop fields, we are now into that phase where we're trying to keep up with any formations that might be occurring someplace.
And this particular one, whether it was made by a human or something else, was on the outskirts of Portland, Oregon.
Linda, what would you recommend to people?
Because a lot of times when these crop circles form, there's just not enough time to get to it for scientific investigation, and before people like you do, the fields are trumped by busy bees, rubberneckers, and people who want to see, and it all gets fouled up.
Right.
Well, I'll tell you, right now, in fact, I'm happy to give my phone number on the air for this, because Dr. Levengood, the biophysicist in Michigan that I've been working with for the last four years, has been getting some plants from England, and is very interested in getting plants from any of these formations that might occur in Canada and the United States, and probably the fastest way is to get in touch with me.
So, before I go into a brief excerpt from an interview with a Kansas farmer about his most recent mutilation and helicopter activity in the area, I wonder why don't I just give my phone number and people could contact me who are listening wherever in the United States.
It's a gutsy thing to do, Linda.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I know.
Well, this is the only way I know to make this contact in terms of reports.
The number would be area code 215-491-9840.
And I will talk with people and we will see if there is some formation that does occur someplace.
We will try to work with Dr. Levengood to get plants to him, and so I would be the contact point.
Okay, Linda, but there are a lot of people listening, and so you better qualify it.
The only calls you want are ones that are connected to crop circles?
Crop circles, and I suppose it's within their area have heard about some recent mutilations
since they are occurring in a variety of isolated parts of the country right now.
I certainly could take a call on that too.
Alright, with those being the parameters, area code 215-491-9840, Linda Moulton Howell.
Okay Linda.
Now I'd like to share with you a portion of a conversation with farmer Dennis Claiborne
who lives in Garnett, Kansas.
He found one of his cows mutilated with the classic bloodless excisions of ear, eye, tongue,
genitals and rectum.
The first was August 31st.
The second was a young heifer, a little over a year old, found on June 21st in his farm
in Garnett, Kansas.
And when we pick up this particular part of the interview, I'm asking him about the comparison
between the two mutilations on his farm.
In the other one, how similar was the August 31st mutilation to this new young heifer this
The exact same mutilation.
There was no difference.
Everything was the same?
Yeah, the cut might have been just a little rougher of the heifer than it was the cow, but not that much.
And what about the color of the tissue?
Well, you can see in the photos that we're sending you that the tissue was extremely wide on the pepper.
Mm-hmm.
As if there was no blood in the capillary.
There wasn't no blood.
Nowhere.
Mm-hmm.
You can see.
And, uh, you didn't see, uh, signs of struggle or tracks around this heifer in the grass this time?
Which are what?
Any signs of struggle or tracks around the, uh, heifer?
Not around the heifer, just that ring in the grass.
Right, the ring in the grass.
Um, now, I understand that you have seen helicopter activity in and around this pasture, uh, recently?
Yeah, about two or three months ago, or something like that, a couple months ago, I called the Sheriff's Department, and they have a county right across, we're right on the county line, and asked if they had anything on a helicopter going down, and they said not at their knowledge at that time, they didn't know anything about it.
But you could sit up there behind the barn with working cattle and you could hear it running off in the distance,
perfect.
So you could hear the sound of the helicopter?
Yep.
But you didn't see it?
Never did see it.
And did you ever hear the sound of the helicopter at night?
This was at night.
It was at night?
Every time we flew it was at night.
And no running lights, no beams?
Nope.
And that of course has been one of the constant themes for the last 30 years of people hearing the sound of a
helicopter in a pasture area and not seeing anything, or seeing what looked like a beam of light coming out of
what people describe as looking like a helicopter, but in those cases they often are silent.
And that ring that he referred to around this most recent mutilation, I've seen the photos now,
and where the animal was found it was more like a half circle of trampled, the grass, the pasture grass was, I don't
even know if you could say trampled, but certainly laid down.
Not in the precise way of a crop circle, certainly.
But it is unusual that there is this sort of half circle of trampled grass around this mutilated heifer.
I must tell you, Linda, this phenomenon is driving me nuts.
And now we have the addition of the helicopters.
Right.
You have to ask this question.
Helicopters would at least lead one toward government involvement, or the question of government involvement.
And then you've got to sit back and say, now what the hell would our government have to go to some farmer's field to get a cow to cut up?
The answer is, the government would not need to do that.
That's right, and every law enforcement officer I've ever talked to since I first did a strange harvest 14 years ago has said this is not the way the government would operate.
They would simply buy the animals that they needed, take them on to some military place, and they would take whatever it was that they needed.
And I think it's also It's so important to report about seven years ago a man who as far as I know works for intelligence in the United States government told me without my being able to ever name him or the source but said that our government does monitor frequencies of what they consider to be non-human entities
And these frequencies that come from different vehicles or lights can be tracked and monitored and when they pick up these signals that certain teams are scrambled to areas in an effort to both monitor and possibly break up the action and he indicated to me that this was done both in areas where there were mutilation activity and where there were abduction reports.
Wow.
That's what I say to that.
Wow.
Uh, did he happen to tell you any of those frequencies?
No.
Uh, those are the kinds of things that when you get into details, uh, none of us really ever get, and that may or may not be wise on the part of, uh, some of the people in the government who have some assignments, uh, in some of this.
They're monitoring, and I think they monitor, uh, and I don't, I don't think the government has all the answers, Art.
I think that The government, like we, are trying to struggle with a phenomenon that is so complex and ever-changing that they themselves must study it.
That, then, would certainly make sense.
That's very intriguing, Linda.
And if you can find out any more, or if anybody out there knows any more about this... Call me.
Call Linda.
That's right.
All right, Linda, a fascinating report.
Thank you, and I will look forward to next week, and my best to Michael Lindemann, and hopefully I can talk with him soon, too.
I know you'll have a good conversation with him.
I know he wants you to give him a call.
All right.
So do that.
Thank you, Linda.
Take care.
Take care.
Linda Moulton Howell.
Wow, um, now that is the first that I have ever heard that suggested that there may be frequencies of operation of these craft and that they are monitored.
And when something is heard in a specific area, a team is dispatched.
All of a sudden, that would make some sense.
In just one moment, Michael Paul Lindemann.
Hi!
Michael Linneman was born in Milwaukee in the state of Wisconsin, home of our new affiliate tonight, 3WI, in 1949.
He became a conscientious objector as a university student during the Vietnam War, developing a lifelong interest in arms control, foreign affairs, and government policy.
He earned a BA degree in psychology from Antioch University, followed by two years of study at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley.
He later combined his political and psychological interests as an educator, social analyst, and futurist, first as executive director of the Peace Resource Center of Santa Barbara, then as founding director of the 20-20 Group, which is a private research organization studying forces that shape the future.
Since 1990, Michael Lindemann has earned national recognition for contribution to the studies of UFOs.
He first examined the UFO controversy in 1989 from the angle of its possible connection to covert weapons development and social policy.
Finding substantial evidence in support of UFO claims, he founded the Visitors Investigation Project to conduct and publish UFO research.
Through the 2020 Group, Michael Lindemann consults to the entertainment industry, news media, independent researchers, and private individuals on all aspects of the UFO subject, as well as other issues impacting the present and future conditions of human society.
He's a dynamic public speaker.
He's lectured and held seminars in just about every part of the United States.
He's a frequent guest on radio and TV of all sorts.
So here from Santa Barbara, California is Michael Lindemann.
Michael, hi!
Let's try it again.
Michael, how are you doing?
I'm fine.
Good to hear from you, Art.
Glad to have you back on the program.
For a lot of my listeners, Michael, they will never have heard you since we're on so many new affiliates.
So, I just guess I told them a little bit about you.
What is the 2020 Group and what are you doing now?
Well, as you said a minute ago, the 2020 Group is basically a private research and publishing organization, which I founded in 1989.
At the time I founded the organization, I really wasn't that interested in the UFO subject.
I had spent the previous entire decade of the 1980s primarily concerned with arms race issues.
The unprecedented military buildup here in this country and the saber-rattling between the U.S.
and Soviets during the first part of the 80s was of great concern to people all over the world, of course.
That changed, obviously, very, very dramatically at the end of the decade, which meant that I was switching my focus, looking around for What other kinds of subjects might actually, in effect, drive the social process here in the United States as well as other parts of the world?
I think it can safely be said that during the period following World War II, right on up to the end of the 80s, the arms race, the so-called Cold War, was the It's the single strongest influence upon social policy all over the world.
The prospect we might go to nuclear war.
All the ways of preventing that, all the ways of regulating that, all the ways of negotiating it for better or worse, and all of the technology and industry that went into that.
That was the largest single thing in the whole social policy area.
Now, of course, that has changed dramatically, and I was asking what's next.
But at the same time I was saying, Why do we continue to build extremely arcane new weapon systems?
And so I put that, you know, question out to a bunch of people.
I said, okay, if the Soviet Union is no longer the big enemy, in fact, at that time the Soviet Union was fast becoming a non-entity, if there is no other entity of that magnitude which could threaten us, who then would be the rationale, the target, as it were, for all these new weapons?
Michael, it's an awfully good question, particularly in view of the fact that if you look at our current defense budget, while there are cuts, There's still a lot of money going into weapons development and who are we fighting potentially?
Exactly, who are we fighting potentially is a very important question.
Not only do we have a fairly large, very large defense budget out in the open art, the money that people all know about in the federal budget, but there is also much more importantly even the black budget about which very few people know.
And we may have occasion to speak of that later in the program, but I would like to mention to all of your listeners that if you have not yet heard or seen the book, Blank Check, by Timothy Weiner, I strongly recommend that you go out and get that book.
It's in softcover.
Blank Check, subtitled The Pentagon's Black Budget.
What about this theory, if you don't mind, Michael, that old habits die hard?
And I know that sounds laughable and silly, but we have a long tradition now of connection between the government and defense contractors and all the rest of it.
Jobs are at stake.
Lots of things I can think of might drive, other than a real national security need, weapons development.
You're quite right.
There's no question.
Part of it is momentum, Mark.
Part of it is momentum for the simple reason that these weapons systems ...are on a very, very long development curve.
And back when, for example, the alleged Aurora spy plane became a priority project, back in those days, the Soviet Union was very much a formidable enemy, and the idea of a new supersonic or super high-speed hypersonic plane was a very good idea, or at least a feasible idea.
Today, we have to say, maybe that plane is anachronistic, but I'm not so sure.
And we should bear in mind, too, That plane officially does not exist, and yet all of the major aerospace magazines in the English language say it does.
The U.S.
Geological Survey says it does, because they can track its movements on their seismographs.
Many professional plane spotters say it does.
This is a plane which officially doesn't exist.
In fact, the Air Force has said vehemently time and again, not only have we not built it, we don't know how, so please don't leave it alone.
Only a few weeks ago, CIA Director Woolsey said at a university in Kansas, asked by someone in the audience, what about the Aurora?
He said, not only does nothing called the Aurora exist, nothing like that in concept exists.
All right, listen, we've got to hold it right there, Michael.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
Sit tight for about four minutes.
We'll be right back to you.
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From the Kingdom of Narnia.
of nine. You're hearing Greenland with Art Bell. To participate in the program, call toll-free
1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255. First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222, or the wildcard line at
702-727-1295. This is the CBC Radio Network. He heads up the 20-20 group. His name is Michael
Lindemann, and we're talking about, at the moment, things military.
Our defense budget.
And he brings up an awfully good point.
If the threat is largely, underline that word, gone, then what are we doing spending billions and billions...
It's the tip of the hat to Mr. Sagan.
Now, dollars on new weapons systems.
We were discussing the Aurora.
Michael, you're back on the air.
Okay, Art.
Just complete that thought real quick.
Yes, the bottom line is that the CIA director says categorically it doesn't exist.
Everybody else who knows anything says categorically that it does exist.
That is to say, in the civilian sector, the military says flatly it doesn't exist.
So you've got this divide here where they say it doesn't exist.
Now just as a point of reference, we might note that in last week's New York Times, in the Sunday New York Times Magazine, there was an article about Dreamland, dear to your heart I'm sure, right up there at Area 51.
Yes.
And where the writer, almost tongue-in-cheek, pointed out that although we've got loads of photos of the place and everyone and his brother knows it's up there, the military still will tell you flat out it doesn't exist, it isn't there.
And this is, I think, something we have to understand, that these people lie for a living, and to them it isn't lies, it's policy.
So we have to understand that whenever we're talking about this subject, we're dealing with an area where deception is the rule of thumb, and... Michael, is a lie told in the cause of national defense a lie, or just national defense?
Well, it is still a lie, and I'll tell you, you know, but it is a lie with a rationale, or a lie with an excuse, as it were.
Ollie North trotted out his famous thing, we had to trade off, we had to trade off whether, which was more important, lives or lies, lives with a B, or lies, in defense of his Iran-Contra behavior.
Winston Churchill, when he was plotting with Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Hitler, said, In the wartime, the truth is so important that she must be guarded with a bodyguard of lies.
Now, this is the way policy is conducted, and I am not saying that it's always wrong.
I am simply saying it is something we must understand.
We must factor it in.
I'm not pointing a moralistic finger at these people.
I'm just saying facts are facts.
These people lie for a living.
Now, when it comes to When it comes to the UFO subject, of course, we're up against what is arguably the biggest secret in world history.
And there, of course, I think for all practical purposes, it is being conducted in a war mentality, though it is not necessarily a war issue.
But it is certainly being conducted with a war mentality, and so we have to assume that this lies in defensive policy, lies as policy, is very much the order of the day.
Have you concluded, Michael, that we are being visited?
My personal conclusion is absolutely yes.
I believe, I am absolutely convinced.
And what is the body of evidence that brought you to that conclusion?
Well, it is, I must say, it has been coming together incrementally, Art.
I wish I could point to a smoking gun.
I really can't.
I would like to say, however, that the new evidence or the recent Accumulation of evidence around the Roswell incident is extremely compelling, and we can now point to several excellent books on that subject.
One by Stanton Friedman called Crashed Corona, and two by Randall and Schmidt, the first one called UFO Crash at Roswell, and the new one this year called The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, which somewhat rewrites the timeline, but for all practical purposes the story is the same and has been pretty much the same since Bill Moore first published the Roswell Incident back in 1980, but today we have, you know, dozens of first-hand eyewitnesses and many, many other eyewitnesses, family people who have seen how their loved ones passed away babbling about Roswell and his deathbeds, for example.
We know that something extraordinary happened at Roswell, and it has all the earmarks of the most well-documented Legitimate UFO crash recovery in history.
Not the only one, but one which is virtually a lead pipe certainty.
And here we are, face to face, with one instance that proves the argument, as it were.
Now, if Roswell happened as we think it happened, then the military is in possession of a substantial amount Uh, uh, legitimate UFO wreckage, that is to say, machinery built by a non-human, technically advanced intelligence.
And they are prob- This made the ship- Rock 106.
...appeared, was shipped out under unusual circumstances and later disappeared, uh, never to be seen again.
Glenn Dennis says that he was told, also, if you speak a word of what you've seen or heard, someone will be picking your bones out of the sand.
Yeah, you know, it's easy to sit back academically when you're listening to this and saying, Why didn't they just blow it all out and, you know, let the story out and go to the president?
Well, that's a significant threat.
If you've ever had one made like that, you'll know, if not, you cannot imagine to kill you and your family and your children is not a trivial threat.
That is correct.
There was a young girl whose name at the moment escapes me, and perhaps I can bridge it up later on.
Her father was a fire officer.
down there and the fire department apparently had been called out to help
set up the cordon around the crash area.
Some small pieces of wreckage showed up at the fire department
for a short period of time and this young girl, 12 years old at the time,
Frankie... Frankie something, I forget her first name.
Frankie something, I forget her last name.
It says today, she has recently been interviewed, that she was told, she was approached by military officers
and she again, a 12 year old child, no concept of secrecy, no idea what's going on.
But she had seen a small piece of wreckage which behaved oddly.
When it was bent, it came back into its original shape without any creases.
She found that fascinating.
But she said that they said to her, you have never seen anything, you don't know anything.
She said, well, but I saw this thing.
They said, no, you didn't see that.
She said, yes, I did.
They said, you don't understand.
We can take you out in the desert and you'll never be seen again.
Now this is a 12-year-old child for crying out loud.
So what we're seeing here is that this has been treated as an issue of espionage, as an issue where there are no rules except the rule of expediency, the rule of get the job done, whatever it takes.
And I think we can say, in all honesty, whether we justify it or not, we have here cases of domestic terror, which was justified in the national interest.
People have been told, shut up or die.
And that tells us something about the seriousness of this issue.
You wonder how they allow people like me on the air?
Well, you know, I ask the same question about myself, and I'll tell you why.
The fact is that you have not broken any oaths.
You, as far as I know anyway, have not seen anything with your own eyes.
You are, as it were, a peddler of tall tales.
And in a certain sense, so am I. Now, please don't take that wrong.
I think what you're doing is extremely important.
I think it may help break the logjam.
Maybe they look at me and say, well, there's a guy helping to muddy the waters.
There's a guy with a million stories on the radio and people to sit back and say, oh yeah, right.
Exactly.
And there's a purpose to that.
Now, I will throw out the proposition, which I'm sure we will be able to explore this evening further, and that is that we are being desensitized.
There has been a strategy of what I call containment for going on now 47 years.
In which the principal priority was, at all costs, keep the secret.
What we see now, though, is that the containment is disintegrating.
People are telling their stories on deathbeds.
Deathbed testimony has a certain persuasiveness to it.
We have dozens and dozens of witnesses who say, I refuse any longer.
I have always kept my security vows and have considered them very important, but now we
have people saying, I'm sorry, this is more important.
So dang those vows, I'm going to talk.
We have, of course, hundreds of people saying that they are having these experiences, face-to-face
experiences.
We have, as Linda so eloquently reports week after week, we have these extraordinary mutilations,
and I for one second Linda 100% when she says that when you add up the evidence and ask
who could possibly be doing this, it boils down to it looks an awful lot like it must
be aliens.
Maybe we can get back to that.
But the point here is... Let me just stop you long enough to say, you know, her report tonight was particularly interesting.
I could never make the connection with the helicopters because that would mean government.
But her little story about frequencies monitored and units dispatched in areas of activity,
all of a sudden that made some sense, Michael.
Yes, I agree.
I, um, the black helicopters or the incidents of unmarked helicopters around the mutilation
events has always been one of the big puzzles.
And I think it still is, but I think Linda's on the right track.
Because it seems to me that it is extremely improbable that we, that is to say our military, or our people, whoever they are, Yes.
are conducting the mutilations per se.
And yet I am quite sure they must be extremely interested, perhaps even deeply concerned about this.
And yes, they would be monitoring this.
Now, there should be.
If we understand anything at all about alien propulsion, it seems to me that one thing that we're aware of
is that there are very, very strong and probably characteristic microwave signatures
associated with low-level UFO activity.
We have lots of evidence that that's the case.
Indeed, that may be directly involved in the creation of crop circles.
That remains to be proven, but it's a possibility.
In the case of the mutilations, if indeed a UFO must come close to the ground for a period of time in order that this event be perpetrated as it were, it is possible that that very peculiar and powerful microwave Signature would be traceable, and indeed, since we know that these events occur in concentrations, and quite often for reasons unknown, near major military bases.
For example, the wave of things that have happened in northern Alabama happens to be rather close to the Huntsville area, which is an absolute military hotbed, of course a major center for NASA as well.
So we see, for again, reasons unknown, that this happens a lot in areas where it would be feasible for the black helicopters to be scrambled in short order and to go see what's going on.
Wow.
So then you believe they're here.
You're probably, like everybody else, not quite sure.
Should I ask you about why?
Why do you think they're here, Michael?
What's your best guess?
Well, I can only give you a guess, as you say.
Let me start by saying that I am slowly gravitating toward what I would have to say, and with all due respect to myself and others, is the current lunatic fringe of serious UFO research, okay?
Which is what?
Which is the proposition that they've always been here, or they've been here one heck of a long time.
Let me back up on that a second and say that over time, the lunatic fringe of this research area has shifted a great deal.
It was only about 15 years ago, Art, when the concept of abduction was right out at the lunatic fringe.
Absolutely.
And today, as we all know, abduction is the centerpiece issue of UFO research.
And even the very conservative organizations, such as the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago,
which by any stretch is a conservative UFO research group, they're on the bandwagon with
abduction.
Today we have the most astounding abduction tales being taken very seriously by Harvard professors and so forth.
And so we have to say, well, this topic has come of age.
By the way, John Mack's going to be a guest on the program in the next few weeks.
Very good.
Very good.
Well, of course, as we probably know, most of your listeners, I hope, are aware of John Mack's quite remarkable new book.
I would like to say a word about that in a minute, but let me just finish this other thought.
Sure.
We've seen that line, the lunatic fringe line, as it were, change, shift over time.
Now, way back in the 60s, a guy named Eric Fondanican said, you know, he thinks that the so-called ancient astronauts have been here forever and maybe left traces of their passing, you know, centuries or millennia ago.
And in a certain sense, Fondanican caused it with his own biggest problem, because his research was sloppy, he made lots of mistakes in his basic statements and so forth, but it's quite possible that he was on to something very, very important.
And in the meantime, we've seen better scholarship out of people like Zechariah Sitchin.
And we are finding that one of the most prominent themes among abductees today is this theme they are being told time and time again, instructed about the ancient history of the world and how it is that we have had this long-running relationship with these others.
Now, we should say, too, that these others do not appear to be a single group.
This may have been a crossroads, you know, for this part of the galaxy from what we know.
We hear stories to the effect that this is a fascinating planet because it is replete with so many different life forms that it's somewhat of an anomaly in that respect.
Well, I don't know if any of that is true.
That's an interesting idea.
The idea, the fact is, however, that there are all over the world incidences of what
we call out-of-place artifacts and also out-of-place knowledge.
For example, why is it that the Sumerians 5,000 or 6,000 years ago knew the precise
dimensions and structure of the solar system?
This is something that we didn't know.
We didn't know about the planet Pluto, for example, until 1930.
We didn't know about Uranus and Neptune until the latter part of the 19th century.
And yet the Sumerians knew these planets.
They knew their size.
They knew their color.
They knew how long it took for these planets to go around the sun.
This is a fascinating fact.
They wrote it all down.
So we know it's true, even a diagram.
Michael, it argues two possibilities, really, it seems to me.
One, that we were visited long ago and given these technologies, or two, and I have a number of guests that have said this recently, that it's possible that there are periodic polar shifts, and that man on this planet comes and goes, and that there may have been prior civilizations.
Okay.
Prior civilizations, yes.
Even possibly...
Prior periods of exceedingly high technology.
Indeed, the new information about the Sphinx is most provocative in that regard.
Are you familiar with the latest information concerning the possible age of the Sphinx?
Please tell me.
Well, a man named John Anthony West a couple of years ago noted something most peculiar about the Sphinx.
He was looking at photographs of the Sphinx and he said, by golly, this thing was eroded with water, not wind.
Now, this makes it an anomaly in the whole area.
All the other structures around there, the giant pyramids of Giza and so forth, are all very clearly wind eroded, but water erosion looks very, very different.
And there's simply no doubt at all, from the standpoint of a geologist, that the Sphinx is eroded with water, the back part of it.
So the question is, how is it possible that the Sphinx could have been eroded with water?
When did it rain in Egypt?
And the bottom line there is, it hasn't rained any significant amount in Egypt for 10,000 years.
Now, this of course raises a firestorm with Egyptologists, because they have nailed down the age of the Sphinx, who built it, what it's for, and all of that.
Nonetheless, the geologists have come on board like gangbusters, because John Anthony West, who's no geologist at all, enlisted the aid of some geologists from various universities in the East, in the East Coast, and they went out there, very grudgingly at first, but they had a look and they said, by golly, this guy is absolutely right.
This bloody monument is eroded with water, and it's very apparent.
It's not an ambiguous matter.
So now, every geologist that has a look at it just drops his jaw to the floor and says, this is the most fantastic thing we've ever seen.
Bottom line, what does it mean?
The Sphinx can't be 5,000 or 4,000 years old, like people say.
It can't be an artifact of that dynasty that everyone pins it on.
It is something that was built Ten or twelve thousand years ago, long enough ago, Art, that rain, substantial amounts of rain, could have substantially eroded it before the rain stopped.
And that is an absolutely stunning Change in our whole view of that area.
It is.
Michael, hold on just one moment.
My guest, Michael Lindemann.
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Well, here's what it means.
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What else does it do?
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Matter of fact, it doesn't even have the clipper chip in it yet.
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Three.
My telephone will go three quarters of a mile.
I can go to neighbors' homes and all the rest of it.
I've got good geography here for that.
I'll grant you.
And if you have a lot of buildings, it may lessen somewhat.
But, uh, almost everybody I've talked to, uh, gets between, uh, gets right on up to a half mile or better.
Imagine that.
So you can take it to neighbors' homes, that sort of thing.
It's got all the features you would expect and demand of a portable telephone.
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In fact, the DX model even has an, uh, a very, very effective intercom in it.
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Back to Michael Lindemann.
Michael.
Yes, sir.
Um, so, then, what do you think is the most likely?
That we were visited, or that there was another civilization, or there have been many civilizations, or that there has simply been a rise and a decline back to the cave days, or... What do you think happened?
What I think, first of all, Art, is that we currently live in an extremely narrow worldview about our history, about our past.
We have some giant surprises ahead of us in terms of understanding our past.
Probably, high civilization goes back a lot further than we think in certain places.
But even so, it would appear that these high civilizations arose rather Inexplicably, at least according to our current understanding of how civilizations arise and how they flourish and how they pass their knowledge to succeeding civilizations.
I am currently of the opinion, and am desperately groping for data I might add, that probably there have been infusions of information from off-world sources or from sources that we would not call
human.
That this has probably happened periodically over time, and that that would account in some cases for the sudden
appearance of extraordinary civilizations in places that were not supportive of civilization prior.
Why then would that knowledge not have contributed to a general rise
rather than the possibility of there having been a highly technical civilization previously?
Well, you know, in some cases it did contribute to a general rise.
For example, we really trace a lot of what we call modern civilization today all the way back to Sumeria.
If Sumeria was one of the seed beds of this round, let us say, of civilization and technology,
an enormous amount of that has been passed down virtually unchanged through the Babylonians
and Assyrians and shared with the Egyptians and may even have filtered eastward toward
the Vedic cultures and certainly became the basis for the cultures of the Middle East
and from there on to the Minoan culture, the Greek culture and the Roman culture and from
there of course in a straight line to us.
There is no question that there has been a long path of more or less unbroken handing
But the question is, where in, you know, the devil did the Sumerians get their fantastic knowledge of astronomy, of agriculture, including irrigation?
Their codes of law, their codes of philosophy, their codes of... Alright, Michael, we've got to hold it there.
We're at the top of the hour.
Relax for about six minutes.
We'll be right back to you.
This is CBC.
We're sorry, but due to satellite transmission problems, we cannot direct you to the station.
This is talk radio 102 FM presents a previously recorded Art Bell Greenland program.
This is talk radio 102 FM presents a previously recorded Art Bell Greenland program.
From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Greenland with Art Bell.
Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-TALK.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
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Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
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First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
727-1295 in the 702 area code.
Now again, here's our bell.
Now again, here I am.
Michael Lindemann is my guest.
He's from the 2020 Group, which is an organization that looks at current trends and predicts future probabilities.
I guess that would be a good way to put it.
We're talking about the UFO phenomenon.
Uh, the visitations we're having and, uh, according to Michael, may have had for a very, very long time.
And we're going back to it right now.
We will begin to take calls shortly.
Uh, Michael, a couple of things that I want to cover with you.
Uh, you have a current project going on.
Um, what was it you told me about?
And, uh, I'm terribly sorry, I've forgotten.
Are you referring to the computer project?
No, no, no, no.
Just previous to that, you had mentioned a project by name.
I had mentioned a project by name?
Yes, you have.
You've stumped me.
Are you writing something currently?
Oh, no.
I was talking about Coming of Age in the Cosmic Neighborhood.
That's right.
There we go.
I'm sorry.
You got me a little bit confused there.
Coming of Age in the Cosmic Neighborhood is actually The name of a lecture that I am going to be giving in several places around the Southwest during the month of July.
Alright, where are you going to be and what is it all about?
Okay, I'm going to be, first of all, I'll be going to the MUFON, International MUFON Conference, July 8, 9, and 10.
For those people down in the Texas area that may want to go to the That'll be at the Hyatt Regency in Austin, Texas, July 8th, 9th, and 10th.
I'll be speaking down there.
And then I'll be speaking in Albuquerque, New Mexico, on the evening of Thursday, July 14th.
And I'll be speaking in Scottsdale, Arizona, right outside of Phoenix, on Saturday, July 16th.
In both Albuquerque and Scottsdale, I'll be delivering a lecture with lots and lots of slides and illustrations called, Coming of Age.
in the cosmic neighborhood and the catchy little punchline to that is we are not alone,
we are finding out and that changes everything.
So I'm trying to take a relatively upbeat attitude toward this.
We're facing a huge mystery, we're definitely facing a political dilemma to say the least.
And I think there are people inside the government who have taken this as one of the most serious
challenges to the social order that they have ever had to deal with.
It is very much on a par with serious warfare.
But that does not mean we are necessarily facing hostility.
What we are facing is high strangeness.
We are facing the unexpected.
We are facing the infusion of influences that we are not ready for.
And that can be problematic, but not necessarily a disaster in the end.
We have to get ready for this.
We have to grow up and face the music.
I think that is a huge challenge, I think it's exciting, and that's what I'm going to be talking about.
Alright, here's a what-if, Michael, and I'm curious how you would answer it.
If I came to you, and I was from the government, and I said, look, most of what you've talked about, well, some of it, you know, you're off, you don't have it quite right.
But the fact of the matter is, we are being visited.
We've been visited for a very, very long time.
The Clinton administration has decided that it wants to break word to the American public.
You, Michael Lindemann, have studied this sort of thing.
What do you recommend to us?
What exactly would you tell them?
I would tell them a couple of things.
First of all, I would say that the process of desensitization is probably a sound political strategy, and I do believe that they're pursuing that.
I don't believe that was a Clinton strategy.
I believe it's been in place for several administrations at least.
Um, but I would say, uh, yes, we must start telling people, um, that things have been going on.
And I believe we should start with some of the old cases.
We should start to acknowledge that we have not, that we have Solid information showing the fact that we have been visited.
This is going to be a hard pill to swallow for some people, but it's interesting that it may be less of a challenge than some people have predicted.
Well, after all, Michael, we did swallow the plutonium pill.
Yes, that deplorable pill.
It's true, and it may just be that people are so kind of, you know, kind of Just generally overwhelmed with the rigors of daily life that they're kind of going to yawn and go, oh yeah, right, aliens, no problem.
Now of course it's been, there has been a running supposition in government, and we know this from looking at the Robertson Panel Report from 1953, the CIA report about debunking the Brookings Institute reports that came out of the late 50s and early 60s, reports from NASA and so forth telling us unequivocally That the government has assumed that there would be some kind of very unpredictable social disorder if they simply said, well, by the way, we've got aliens and we can't catch them and we don't know who they are or what they want, thought you'd want to know, that that would probably precipitate a disaster which they were unwilling to take a risk on.
I understand that.
I think they're probably right.
But I think, too, we are very different people today than we were then.
I think that we now have a generation of adults who grew up with the space age.
We have a generation of adults who grew up with fantastic space movies, who've seen all kinds of stuff on Star Trek since it began back in the late 60s.
All this kind of thing has changed the picture enormously.
We also have a huge amount of information coming out.
and reported much more respectfully today than ever before.
Though there have been waves in the past of good reporting and big stories,
today it's really unprecedented.
The number of books, the number of quality television programs,
the number of reports in the newspapers and magazines, all this is changing the picture a tremendous amount.
It is still.
The government is not likely to tell us about something that itself,
that the government itself does not fully understand.
It's not likely, is it?
No, it is not.
It is not likely at all, but I do think that if ever there was an opportunity, the Clinton administration represents a major break from the past in a way that the Bush administration certainly did not.
bush bush's political roots go way back to the early fifties when he was
involved with the with the cia's accord in covert ops and of course it's to
director in the mid seventies to install reagan of course in a little guard guy
and then from there on all the way back to nixon and and and those people
uh... really the last time we had a chance like this was the jimmy carter
administration of course jimmy carter said in nineteen seventy six but he
would tell everything and so we find out there uh... that was a campaign promise
We find out there that when he got into office, something dissuaded him because he made it very plain in his campaign talks that he would tell.
Why?
Because he'd had a sighting and he believes in UFOs.
So that changed when he got into office, and we have reason to believe that he, like other presidents, was briefed and told, I'm sorry, Mr. President, you really don't understand the nature of the situation.
It's well under control, but you're not in charge of this one, sir.
You'll just have to go with the program.
And I really think that that is the way it has been.
But now, in a way that we haven't seen before, I do believe that the Clinton administration is positioned, it could take this on, because in a very real sense it had nothing to do with it.
These people are a new breed, and they can say, look, we didn't make this problem.
And we want to handle it differently than it's been handled before, because we think the American people deserve the truth, and we think the American people can rise to the occasion.
And, indeed, the other side of the coin is that millions of Americans know this is real because it's disrupting their lives.
Because they are having the experiences, and they know they're being lied to by the officials, because they have grays in their living room, in their bedroom, for crying out loud.
They are worried about why their kids are getting abducted, and they want the government to say something.
These people aren't going to be surprised, they're going to be relieved that someone's finally telling them the truth.
So I think we're in a very interesting time, a very pregnant time.
It is still politically risky, but it is not impossible to start talking about this, and I hope we do.
When do you think we might give birth?
Oh, well, as you've already said, and I must agree with you, sad as it is,
I don't believe that we're going to see the political guts out of this administration.
I think this administration's got a lot of problems, you know, very bottom line issues like Whitewater, you know, really big, important stuff.
Yeah.
uh... and and and uh...
pollack's renewal uh... visual zones on the i mean you know really important issues that are clearly uh... of of world
shaking magnitude these things are going to uh... dissuade the part of the uh...
president i think from having a political cuts do anything of the kind we're
talking about the president make it impossible and if there are other ways to
go about it well i don't know michael on the other hand uh... i can
imagine he would look at it this way set up with whitewater and paula jones an
announcement about aliens would tend to sort of make everything else
talented insignificant maybe right that's an interesting strategy now here
is that there's something happening at last time i was on your show
uh...
I made mention of the fact that there's this thing called the Roswell Declaration.
And since you've got a bunch of new affiliates now, I want to say it again because the deal is still the way it was.
And by the way, the last time I was on your show, Art, I got 200 responses in the mail.
And that, I think, is a tribute to you and your show.
It was absolutely fantastic.
But here's the thing.
There is a piece of paper called the Roswell Declaration.
It is now being widely circulated around the country and in Europe, and we have just learned, I'm happy to say, that it will soon appear as a full-page spread in Omni magazine, which of course will present it to millions of people.
What is it?
The Roswell Declaration is basically a plea to the Clinton administration To release information about some of the great classic UFO cases.
Principally Roswell, but also some of the other cases.
To declassify certain information that would be in the public interest to come clean on this information and let people know what really happened.
How do people get a copy of it?
All they have to do is send me a self-addressed stamped envelope.
Send it to Michael Lindemann at 3463 State Street.
Box 264, Santa Barbara, California, 93105.
I'll give that address again in a minute, but if you'll just send me a self-addressed stamped envelope, I will send back to you immediately the Roswell Declaration.
It's self-explanatory.
Read it, sign it, maybe make copies of it first for your friends, and send it in to the address that is listed on the Declaration.
And you will be joining tens of thousands of people, all of this being collected now, And after Omni presents it, and after it's presented in a few other major news venues, it will all then be collated and sent as a single huge petition to the administration.
It will be sent to the president.
Yeah, okay.
Who's doing this, Michael?
Who's behind it?
Well, it began with the initiative of a single individual named Kent Jeffrey.
And this man really deserves a huge round of applause because he took this on by himself.
He wrote the declaration by himself with the help of other people.
Including the Mutual UFO Network, the Center for UFO Studies, and the Front for UFO Research.
They are now all co-signers of the declaration.
This is really a good idea.
Now, give the address again, please.
Please send a self-addressed stamped envelope to Michael Lindeman at 3463 State Street, Box 264, Santa Barbara, California, 93105.
And I will send you a declaration in the same day's mail.
Alright, and when they're done with it, where do they send it?
Do they send it back to you?
No, there is an address listed.
In fact, they can send it either to the Mutual UFO Network or to the Center for UFO Studies.
Those addresses are listed on the declaration.
Well, you know what, Michael?
It just might be true that if enough of these were signed and sent in, and it were actually in the hundreds of thousands or hopefully millions, that this administration might take note and actually use it as a reason to make an announcement.
It is possible, and it's very timely, too.
That there's going to be an absolutely first-rate movie about Roswell on the Showtime Network on Sunday, July 31st.
Now, I'm sad to say that that may cut a little bit into your audience, Art, because it's going to be broadcast, I think, during your show.
But I would like to say, not wanting to take one listener away from your show, This is a program, if you're going to be listening to Art Bell that night, then by golly, have your VCR running and get this thing on tape and watch it, because I have seen it.
I have already seen an advance copy of it, and I can tell you, this is one fine movie.
And it is a, you might say it's a fictionalized docudrama.
What is the name of it?
It's called Roswell.
Roswell.
And it tells the story.
And it is gripping.
It has some name stars.
Kyle MacLachlan is in the role of Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer out of Roswell
who first broke the story in 1977.
It has Martin Sheen as in it and some other well-known actors and actresses
are in the program.
It's first grade.
It was a big budget production for Showtime and they have stayed true to the facts.
Even though it is classified as fiction, the story is true.
It really then ought to put some oomph behind the Roswell Declaration, eh?
Well, we surely hope so.
And now it would appear, though there isn't a deal cut yet,
it now appears that there may be some.
Announcement concerning the Roswell Declaration in conjunction with Showtime.
Wow.
And we hope that happens.
Showtime seems to be taking well to that suggestion.
It's in negotiation or something.
I can't imagine that they have anything to lose by that.
Oh, Michael, that's very exciting.
All right, hold on just a moment.
We'll come right back to you, Michael.
That really is very exciting.
Michael Lindemann of the 20-20 Group in just a moment.
Important enough, I'm going to repeat this address.
All you need do is send a self-addressed stamped envelope.
No money, just a self-addressed stamped envelope to Michael Lindeman.
That's L-I-N-D-L-I-N-D.
L-I-N-D-E-R-M-A-N.
Are there two N's in that?
It's L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
There's no R in there.
Oh, thank you.
L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
Anything close will do.
And it's 3463 State Street, Box 264, 264, Santa Barbara, California.
Right?
And the zip code?
93105.
93105.
I'm getting all this because I know they'll ask for it.
All right.
Michael, I would like to begin to take a few telephone calls.
Are you up for it?
You bet.
All right.
Let's do it.
On the wild card line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hi.
Hello.
This is Fitz from Phoenix.
Fitz from Phoenix.
Gentlemen, the questions come up.
constantly, why are they here? What's the reason why they have so many studies over
the 46, 47 years? Obviously it's the cosmic connection. Now Michael, you have nothing
to lose, you have no credentials to use, you have a good reputation, but I must say this,
the UFO community actually has no leadership, there's no guidance, no coordination, no clearinghouse.
In short, it's staking around like the four-planned man and the elephant. Now the ETs over the
last 40 years have used various kinds of conditioning processes that mankind keeps refusing to use.
Michael, you mentioned a clearinghouse.
I want you to listen carefully on air because this is, and I promise this is not a setup.
Michael, you mentioned a clearing house.
There's no leadership, there's no clearing house, there's no central point.
It wasn't a setup, Michael.
You know, I made a comment about this a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about it before the program, and I know that you can't tell us too much about it, but whatever you can tell us, tell us.
What's going on?
Well, yeah, Fritz, I'm very cognizant of the problem that you've said.
I agree with it.
I and a number of other key people in the field, in fact people who are really quite senior to myself in terms of their contributions to UFO research, are currently in discussion about establishing some kind of an ongoing forum on a major online computer carrier that would allow people
who are online, people who have computers to participate in an ongoing way with high level,
high quality discussions with top researchers. And those researchers would be able
would be able to discuss amongst themselves in forums which are which which can be
to discuss amongst themselves in forums which can be broadcast publicly over the network,
broadcast publicly over the network over the computer network and then rebroadcast again in print or in other
over the computer network and then rebroadcast again in print or in other forms of
forms of secondary
secondary broadcast formats.
Broadcast formats, but the point would be that we would begin to have a
But the point would be that we would begin to have a discussions with top researchers and those researchers
concentrated online
Information sharing information Synthesizing process now this project has been in
development for more than six months It is still not ready for public disclosure. I have to be
rather reticent about it And and we are not at all ready to start
You know telling people how to subscribe, but I will say this I am now after recent developments
I am now confident that this project is going to come to fruition that it will involve a more or less
astounding array of high quality researchers when it comes online and
I'm very happy to have played a role in Causing this thing to occur and I would love to tell all
your listeners right now How they could just sign up and do it
Maybe next time.
Well, since you cannot, that was going to be my question.
The moment you can, will you come back on the program?
I sure will.
I would be delighted.
That's very exciting.
It's about time, and I don't know what else to say other than that.
It's about time.
On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hello.
Good evening.
This is Bill for Vancouver.
Hi, Bill.
K-E-S-N-K-V-I.
I'm lucky.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lindemann, I have a question for you.
Could you briefly tell me what is, since you know so much about weapons, what is this red mercury?
And also, would either one of you be interested in receiving photos from the newspapers, not only the Oregonian, but there's several community newspapers of Forest Grove, of the field, the circles and everything?
Oh yes, absolutely.
I would very much, I would like to receive anything you've got on the Prop Circle activity up there.
I would be very grateful.
Did you get my... Yeah.
Can I put that in when I send for a declaration?
Oh, you sure can.
I'd be delighted.
Thanks so much.
Okay, and Mr. Bell, could you please also say your P.O.
Box number on the air?
Alright, I'll give my address out.
Michael, we've only got just a very few seconds before the break.
Red Mercury, do you know what that is?
Frankly, I hate to sound stupid, but I don't know about Red Mercury.
Sorry, caller.
Well, that's all right.
Michael, we're at the bottom of the hour, so what I would like you to do is just sort of hold on for a moment.
We'll both look forward to those clippings.
I certainly will.
By the way, my address is Art Bell.
Post Office Box 4755.
Post Office Box 4755.
Pahrump, P-A-H-R-U-N-K.
Post Office Box 4755, Burrump, T-A-H-R-U-M-P, Burrump, Nevada, allow...
Up to 89041-4755.
You're listening to Greenland on the CBZ Radio Network.
We're listening to Dreamland on the CBZ radio network.
It's news for central Illinois.
This is Talk Radio 102 FM.
From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-TALK.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
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702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
727-1295 in the 702 area code.
Now again, here's our bell.
Now again, here I am.
Michael Lindemann is my guest.
Lots of news breaking this morning on this program, and a lot of it very welcome.
Don't forget the Roswell Declaration.
Send a self-addressed stamped envelope, please, to Michael Lindemann.
L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
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Box 264, Santa Barbara, California.
Zip code 93105.
93105.
And back now to Michael Lindman and your calls.
Michael, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Alright.
Are you ready for more?
Yes, I am.
I want to make a quick comment before you pick up the phone there.
The gentleman who called about Red Mercury, one of my friends was standing by here listening to the program and said, don't you remember about the Red Mercury business that was It basically has to do with the possible proliferation of illicit nuclear materials out of the former Soviet Union or the satellite Soviet states.
And I can't honestly, I really can't satisfy the caller's inquiry directly because I really have to confess ignorance as to the real details of the Red Mercury problem.
but I will say generally speaking that we have to be very careful when we
congratulate ourselves on getting past the Cold War. We're not anywhere near out of the woods yet
and I think this is really what the Red Mercury Scare is about. That there is a great deal of illicit
nuclear material floating around, a lot of it missing from the former Soviet states
and even a lot of it missing from our own nuclear situation.
And of course one of the big scares today is that nuclear material can get into the hands of
terrorism. The single most likely way that we would still have nuclear detonations on this planet
of a war type would be in the hands of terrorists.
And while we're on that subject, Michael, there's a little more breaking news.
Tomorrow morning, there is a historic and perhaps even troubling first.
The FBI opens their office in Moscow tomorrow morning.
And they do it Ostensibly to help with Russia's terrible crime problem and to investigate, I believe, the connection between the Russian Mafia
And the possibility of their getting hold of some nuclear weapons.
Were you aware of that, Michael?
Well, to be honest with you, I was not aware of the nuclear weapons issue, but I will say this.
It is a truism in today's world that small Easily portable nuclear weapons would be probably the most valuable black market item imaginable.
And that there are arsenals of such weapons in the former Soviet states which have not been guarded up to our specs.
Okay?
And yes, the FBI is interested in this.
We might even say desperately interested in this.
And yes, our own intelligence agencies.
And indeed, I think, in fairness, There's something I missed here Michael.
I thought the FBI was a domestic agency.
may not stem the flood.
There's something I missed here, Michael.
I thought the FBI was a domestic agency.
If I'm not mistaken, what we have here is something on the order of an advisory office.
I'm not sure about that.
But you're right.
The FBI is undoubtedly a domestic agency.
But then again, you know, these agencies cross the line.
The CIA will tell you every single time, you said, do you do any in-country... Absolutely not!
No, I shouldn't say not, but you know, that's a pile of baloney.
So, the fact is, these agencies go where they need to go.
And they really aren't governed that powerfully by any code of law.
Alright, just before we leave the subject, what about Korea?
It's big news.
They're building nuclear weapons, probably already have them.
Jimmy Carter just came back with almost a piece in our time, flap of the paper, and now it looks as though the crisis is kind of on the back shelf again.
Is it really?
Jimmy Carter came back and said the crisis is over.
Is it really over, Michael?
Well, of course, I'm not sure, but I will say this.
I don't believe that any legitimate state has anything to gain by threatening to use nuclear weapons.
Many states want to possess nuclear weapons as a hedge against their own social disorder.
North Korea is one of the final bastions of old-line communism.
As such, they are absolutely anachronistic, And the Pyongyang administration is looking at the prospect of a total social disaster if they lose their grip on the people.
It is a very good idea from their point of view to have weapons, but not to use them.
No legitimate state can afford to use weapons, not even one.
The only real use for those weapons today is going to be in the hands of terrorists, and of course that will eventually lead to nothing as well, but of course could cause an awful lot of commotion along the way.
But I think that's where the threat of the weapons comes from, is that these states need them to buttress their own legitimacy with their own people, and in that respect, no, the crisis is not over, because Korea, North Korea, is on the verge of a social catastrophe.
Right.
In other words, are they actually giving up the idea of nuclear weapons, ready to negotiate them away?
Or are they just stalling for time while the fuel rods they have cool?
They cannot yet extract plutonium from them and surely the one thing they needed was time.
Is that what Jimmy Carter and this administration have now given them?
Time?
Not necessarily.
They may have given them time, yes, but what is more important, what North Korea needs more than time is legitimacy.
North Korea needs to feel that it is not the odd man out in a world ringed by enemies.
And if North Korea can be made to feel, if for example there is a genuine detente between North and South Korea, if North Korea is welcomed into the fold of economically developing countries in the Far East, Then we may see a possibility where the North Koreans do not feel the need to develop nuclear weapons in the way they have felt.
And I would call that a step in the right direction.
I can't guarantee it'll happen, but I think that that is where the negotiations are headed.
All right.
On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hi.
Hello there.
Hello.
Hi.
Yes, ma'am, you're on the air.
Turn your radio off and tell us where you're calling from.
Um... Turn your radio off.
I just heard these numbers, this phone number, and I finally decided to call.
I just have one thing I'd like to know, and that is, why do we have to go through, the first time you You have to go through this process.
I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean.
Well, the first time call... Ma'am, we have this number to make it easier for people who are trying to get through the first time.
I see.
I don't.
Okay, do you have a question?
Not really.
Not tonight.
Thank you.
Apparently just wanted to see if she could get through on the wildcard line.
You're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hi.
Michael.
Yes.
Calling from Portland.
You were in town last week.
Yes, I was.
And that was a great lecture you gave with Randall and Schmidt.
Thank you.
I've promoted your book quite a bit, Six Viewpoints.
I consider it a quintessential book, along with Linda Howe's new book, Glimpses of Other Realities.
I'm flattered that you would compare my book with hers.
Hers is magnificent.
Now Michael, a few years ago you made a prediction that as ET information became analyzed, it would appear that the human race started independently around the globe.
It seems like you've been vindicated.
I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.
Try that question again.
He made a prediction a couple years ago that as a lot of this information became analyzed, that it would be believed that the human race evolved around the globe, not just in the one place as is commonly believed, But throughout the planet.
Oh, I see what you're getting at.
Okay, I see what you're getting at.
And information in certain science magazines kind of vindicates you that this indeed has come true.
Well, thank you.
That's actually a rather subtle point, and I thank you for bringing it up.
Actually, the argument is far from one.
It's an extremely complicated situation.
He's referring, Art, to some recent articles in Science and Nature and some other more arcane magazines from the latest research on the evolution from the species we call Homo erectus to the species we call Homo sapiens.
where indeed Homo erectus showed up around the planet, and whether or not Homo erectus
evolved into Homo sapiens in one location or in several different locations, which seems
rather less probable.
And yet there is some information suggesting that Homo erectus actually migrated to various
parts of the world out of Africa much earlier than previously thought, and at that stage
was able then in all these independent locations eventually to show up as Homo sapiens, which
would be an extraordinary thing to occur.
Well, it would because it would make the probability of life elsewhere greater, would it not?
In other words, let me get it straight.
Are you saying that it came from one central location and migrated to other locations, or that it developed along simultaneous lines at several points?
Well, it's actually both of what you said, but here's the thing.
There has long been a theory that our species evolved in Africa and then migrated to many parts of the world, or that there were successive waves of migrations, so that, for example, Homo erectus, a predecessor of ours, evolved in Africa and then moved out into various parts of the world, showed up in China, showed up in the steppes of Russia, and so forth.
And then the old theory continues that the Homo Erectus continued to evolve in Africa until it achieved the status of Homo Sapien, and then Homo Sapien moved out of Africa into other places, and eventually, when it showed up in China, when it showed up in the steppes of Russia and Western Europe and so forth, just killed off the native population of Homo Erectus.
Well, maybe, but maybe not.
New information suggests that Homo sapiens showed up in places like China much earlier than we thought, giving rise to the possibility that it evolved there.
And that is a whole new ball of wax.
That's very exciting.
Yeah, and what it says is that we, first of all, we really don't understand the evolutionary
curve that led to our species.
It would appear, for example, that Homo sapiens came on the scene rather suddenly, earlier
than we thought, and without what we normally would call enough time to get to our very
advanced, say if you want to call us advanced, but we're certainly advanced over Homo erectus.
The question is how did that jump occur?
Now, there are people who say it occurred not as a natural consequence of evolution
here on this planet, but as a process that was pushed by the intrusion of alien geneticists,
if you will, genetic science from off-world.
Now, that, again, I come back to this concept, we're talking now, we're way out on the
lunatic fringe of UFO research, I admit that.
I think that we have very little evidence in support of this, but at the same time,
we have huge conundrums that have no easy answer.
Is it possible that Homo sapiens is, at least in part, the product of genetic engineering
And the answer there is, well, doggone it, just maybe the answer is yes.
And we have to take that seriously.
Now, for example, we go back to the Sumerians, as I talked earlier.
I'll tell you something, Mike.
A hundred years ago, we'd have burned you for that.
Yes, yes.
Indeed.
And, you know, a hundred years from now, they might burn us for that.
They might.
We are facing a very, there's a very serious religious challenge here, Art.
Alright, there are also a million calls, Michael.
We've got to get to them.
On the wild card line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hi.
Yes, KFBR Fairbanks.
Fairbanks, Alaska.
Yes, sir.
Yes, I'm wondering if maybe the sphinx that eroded during the great flood of Noah's day, and if maybe or not the The people are being prepared for what the Bible calls a strong delusion, where when the Christians are raptured, perhaps people will be told that UFOs took them.
All right.
Thank you.
Want to tackle that one, Michael?
Well, I will say this.
Not only the Christian religious tradition, but other religious traditions around the world point to this time, or a time very near this time, As a time of tremendous upheaval and tremendous change.
It is one of the great curiosities of prophecy from around the world.
Yes.
That this is a time that the prophets pointed to.
And it is possible to interpret the rapture that is described in John's Revelation as possibly an alien event or a UFO event.
Now I realize the Christians don't want to interpret it that way.
But I will say that we may see some extraordinary occurrences in the years ahead, and for some people of religious conviction, it will have the appearance of the fulfillment of prophecy.
Boy, all right.
On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
Kevin, KEX Portland.
Portland, yes.
Yeah, Mike, I heard when Art described your biography that you went to Divinity School at Berkeley.
That's correct.
And I was just wondering, like the last caller, a little bit more on your perception of how this relates with, you know, I don't know what religion you are or anything else, but how this relates with your morality or Yeah, if you could just delve into that a little bit.
Alright, or your theological background.
What kind of clash has occurred for you there personally, Michael?
Well, I must tell you in all honesty, it has not confronted my personal theology very much.
I would like to say on behalf of all people of religious conviction, But I don't, whatever we may learn about the truth or the activity of alien intelligence, it will not, in my view anyway, challenge one bit
The basic suppositions of a divine creation or a divine creator.
I have my own personal convictions about that.
I have not heard a single thing anywhere in the UFO research data file that has challenged that for me.
However, I do think we have some belief systems on this planet which are going to be sorely challenged.
And we're going to have to be very, very careful In how we interpret these events.
We're going to have to, you know, first of all we have to recognize that if there is a God, and I personally believe there is, then the only God that makes sense to me is a God whose imagination is vastly larger than my own.
And the possibilities that that God may bring forward are possibilities which dwarf my capacity for understanding.
I do not want to stand up and say, that can't be because my God would never do such a thing.
Michael, could we be chasing our Creator?
Aha!
We could be, in a sense.
But I want to be very careful about that, too, because, you know, if we went to another planet that had only primitive lifeforms or no lifeforms, one of the things that we might think of doing would be to see if we could get life to grow on that planet.
We're talking now about going to the planet Mars, which is supposed to be a dead planet, although there may be evidence to the contrary.
If we went to that planet, we would set about to terraform that planet.
That's already in the written plans, Art.
If we went to Mars, we would try to make that planet a living planet, after our own image.
It is not the least bit inconceivable that other beings far in advance of ourselves came here and did the same thing, but that would not obviate the question of God.
It would only say that we are part of a very large community of intelligent beings who
are very much like us and run experiments like we do and may have moral issues like
we do as well.
All right, Michael, hold on just one moment.
We'll come right back to you, and when we do, I'm going to ask you about the next, to
me, obvious question with regard to Mr. Richard Hoagland.
His discovery is not just on Mars now, but on the moon as well with some remarkable photographs.
Back now to Michael Lindeman.
Michael.
Yes, sir.
Richard Hoagland.
I've been in close contact with him lately.
Some incredible discoveries on the Moon.
I know that you have a computer.
I don't know if you've seen any of the GIF pictures of the Moon's structures yet, but if you have, what are your comments?
Well, I had the pleasure of seeing Richard's presentation in Los Angeles a few weeks ago.
I've seen his photos.
I want to say, first of all, I think Richard is a real pathfinder.
He's a real groundbreaker.
I don't agree with everything he says, but I have respect for the way, for his courage in bringing forward these ideas.
I think his basic concepts about the face on Mars are pretty well established.
I was slow to agree with that, but I will say there's a report that your listeners should read that really nails it down in a way that to me is indisputable and that's a report called the McDaniel Report.
It was published by North Atlantic Books out of Berkeley in 1993.
It is very important and your readers should read it because it establishes that NASA knows that there is something up on Mars and that
the high probability is that that is an artificial construct which suggests the possibility that a
humanoid type of life form Richard Hogan's analysis there of course is is is no
I Don't have the the detail that some of the other photos
have got But there are some structures there that really oughtn't to
got, but there are some structures there that really oughtn't to be there.
be there and it takes somebody like Richard to explain why they shouldn't be there
And it takes somebody like Richard to explain why they shouldn't be there.
And that has to do with the way erosion occurs on the moon I don't have the detail that some of the other photos have
And that has to do with the way erosion occurs on the moon.
All the surfaces of the moon are of basically two kinds.
Either relatively new impact features, basically from the impact of meteoroids that cause craters,
and for a time those features are rather jagged.
But over time, because of the constant rain of small meteoroids, you get a wearing down,
and all of the older features of the moon are extremely smooth, undulating features.
In that picture, a couple of extraordinarily odd, out-of-place things.
And here again we have this concept of out-of-place things.
Things that oughtn't to be there.
Less than a minute now.
Okay.
What we're talking about, especially the one most impressive to me, and I think to others, is the so-called shard.
A tower of rock which rises straight off the surface of the moon to a height of almost five miles?
That's right.
We've never built anything that big, Art.
We have no idea how, and the thing, if it's... if it is a thing, as it appears to be in several photographs taken from several different spacecraft at several different times, if it's really there, then it is most, most...
Unusual.
It shouldn't be there.
And we have to ask, where in the world did such a thing come from?
And why?
And why?
All right.
Stand by.
We'll come back to you right after the break at the top of the hour and try to get to more calls this next hour.
My guest, Michael Lindemann.
You're listening to Dreamland on the CBC Radio Network.
What you think during our local talk radio programming, call Star 100.
But due to satellite transmission problems, Top Radio 102 FM presents a previously recorded
Art Bell Dreamland program.
From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-TALK.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
1-800-618-TALK First time callers, area code 702-727-1222
702-727-1222 Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295
727-1295 in the 702 area code Now again, here's Art Bell
Now, again, I'm here, so is Michael Lindemann.
Here's the facts.
Art, great show, thanks to both you and Michael.
ETs, UFOs, really, Art?
I told you, the Bible is full of this info.
And, of course, the rapture will simply be a massive beam me up Scotty.
And under the category of Ask and Ye Shall Receive, with regard to Red Mercury, somebody sent me an entire article that's going to bear some examination, entitled Red Mercury.
Is there a pure fusion bomb for sale?
And so I'm going to do a little reading on that, several pages here.
Three pages.
My fax limit, by the way.
And several more faxes.
Without time to get to them, we'll kind of try and fit them in as we go.
Michael, are you there?
Yes, sir.
Good.
I think that we ought to pay a lot of attention to the telephones this hour, if we can.
So let's try it.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Yes sir, did this happen?
So let's try it on...
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Yes, sir.
This is... I'm from Wisconsin, Milwaukee.
In Milwaukee, all right.
And one night, everybody in Milwaukee saw this one UFO going over.
I was playing a joke, but me and some friends of mine were given some papers.
Do you remember Stephen Schwartz's experiments at the Navy?
When did you see this UFO?
72 or 73, I think.
All right.
And you say everybody in Milwaukee saw it, wasn't it?
Yes, they were all talking about it on the air.
And I remembered how Dr. Heinemann, Hi, Nick.
Tell us how to judge how far it was by our thumb.
All right.
By holding your thumb up, I guess.
Michael, there have been a lot of sightings like this, like the one she talked about in Milwaukee, where massive numbers of people have seen something.
Is that part of the great body of evidence that leads us toward the inescapable conclusion that they are here?
Well, Art, I would have to say it is.
You know, it's very interesting.
First of all, for this caller to just know, I was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Sad to say, I left in 1967 and didn't hear about the great Milwaukee UFO sighting of 1972.
So if she has any newspaper clips, I'd love to have them.
But I would like to point out that that period, 1972-1973, was an absolute peak period for UFO and alien contact experiences all over the country.
And some very classic cases occurred roughly between 1972 and 1975.
For example, the fantastic abduction case in Pascagoula, Mississippi, which occurred in, I believe, 1973.
The Travis Walton abduction which occurred in 1975.
Lots and lots of other events which occurred all around the country.
Of course, Linda Howe would point out that that period of time was a very hot time for abductions around the country.
The mid-70s was one of the peak periods for that.
So, yes, we see, this is one of the aggravating things about the phenomenon, that it seems to come in waves.
And we've seen some classic waves and that was part of one of those waves.
Are we in a peak or a valley now?
Well, as regards sightings of of craft, the classic sightings type, according to the
Center for UFO Studies, were in a valley, oddly enough. However, it would appear that the phenomenon
is changing and that the nature of contact is changing. We are no longer seeing as many lights
in the sky, but we're seeing a lot more grays in the bedroom. That's a very different kind of
encounter. And I think it says something, we can't prove this, but I'll just go on. They have to do
something.
But second of all, I think the aliens have something to do with it.
They are modulating a process.
And I think that they have shown us lots and lots of lights in the sky for a couple of decades.
You know, back in the 60s, it was very unpopular to even mention that there might be somebody on board, for crying out loud.
You know, you were a bit of a lunatic, even in UFO research, if you said, well, what about the people who are driving the thing?
And that has of course changed a lot, but it wasn't until the mid-70s that we started
to get comfortable with that.
And now of course come mid-80s we're comfortable with the idea, well comfortable is not quite
the right word, but at least we're getting used to the idea that there may indeed be
beings who are coming and meeting us, experimenting with us if you will.
We are conversant with the idea.
In other words, because of all the programs, sightings, contact, the one coming on Roswell, programs like that, we're beginning to get to be conversant with regard to the idea.
That is correct.
Alright, wildcard line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann, hi.
Good evening, John from Richland.
Richland, Washington, yes, John.
The facts on red mercury, I just sent you that.
Oh, great, thank you.
Um, what I wanted to say was, uh, it's a cheap man's way of making, uh, neutron bombs.
And this stuff really does exist.
But I'd like to ask, uh, Mr. Lindeman a question in that regard, is that, uh, Do you think that some of this weapons development is still based on some, perhaps, malevolent intentions on the visitors from wherever they may be?
It is a good question.
It's kind of a natural extension of what you were saying earlier, Michael.
Yes, it is.
Why are we developing all this weaponry?
Right.
And if they're warm, fuzzy little guys...
Well, let me not, let me not, let me not be saying they're warm, fuzzy little guys.
I didn't say that, and I'm not sure that's true.
I would say there's a diversity of types probably present, and that some of them don't pose a threat, but some of them possibly do pose a threat.
Certainly back in the 1940s and early 50s, our government, that is to say the secret faction that was dealing with this information, was quite convinced that we were dealing with some kind of an invasion, and they wondered if there was a military response.
They tried a few tests to see if there was a military response, and they quickly learned that if we approached the subject in a military fashion, we would get blown out of the sky.
There was really no contest.
Recently, a military man said to me that they stopped interpreting it as a military problem quite a long time ago for the simple reason that there is no military response.
That does not mean there isn't a military problem.
But it does mean that we are not properly positioned to take a military action which actually gets results we want.
And therefore it's a different problem.
Therefore it's a getting used to it problem.
It's a handling the social perceptions problem.
It's a perhaps a diplomatic problem.
There are people who think we're in diplomatic contact.
I can't prove that but I have heard some stories which I think may be true.
So we're faced here with what do you do if you are up against overwhelming odds?
If you are not only the military of some, you know, little third world republic, but you are actually, you know, you are the combined military of all the superpowers on earth, you have all the guns and all the money, and you know there isn't a clue, there isn't a chance.
Well, I know this.
I wouldn't go up to Michael Tyson and threaten to punch his lights out.
And I guess it's very similar.
You don't take a military attitude towards somebody who can... That's right, who laughs at you and then squashes you down like a bug.
That's exactly it.
Exactly, that's the problem.
Now, there is no sign... This is my personal interpretation of all available data that I have seen.
There is no sign...
of an intention to take over the planet.
There is no sign of overt hostility, but there are clear signs.
But if we initiate hostilities, we learn right quick who's in charge.
Yep.
All right.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Where are you calling from, please?
Grants Pass.
Grants Pass, Oregon.
Yes.
I personally think that aliens are a lot of garbage and the reason being that the human mind,
I see as the most powerful tool in the universe.
And because of its power, it can create or conjure up or any number of ways you want to express it,
these phenomenon.
Now, the other thing is that in addition to that,
I see that man has always been in the universe, on the earth.
And because of that, there have been many cultures, there have been many civilizations
and quite possibly these artifacts and phenomenon that we've been finding
are a result of these past civilizations.
Alright, what about it, Michael?
Monsters from the Id?
Well, I didn't interpret him as saying only monsters from the IT.
I think that's one possibility.
Basically, if we look at all the data, I think there are three broad possibilities.
First of all, we have an absolutely extraordinary degree of human delusion.
Delusion in people who test normal, who test intelligent, who test non-pathological.
Yes.
That's one possibility.
Possibility number two.
Some governmental or quasi-governmental entity is in possession of an extraordinary array of absolutely bizarre technologies, and they're using them with a vengeance all over the place with no visible agenda.
But that's a second possibility.
Third possibility is aliens.
Any way you slice it, we've got a serious problem here.
Neither one of those possibilities is trivial.
We have to find out what it is, and to treat it with a completely open mind, we have to accept that some cases may fall in any one of those boxes.
But I will say this.
On balance, I believe data shows that the best probability is that some cases are alien.
All right.
And I will stand on that.
All right.
On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Where are you calling from?
Michael, let me turn down my radio here.
Right.
All right.
Thank you.
Please do that.
Turn it off and also tell us where... I'm calling from Seattle.
Seattle.
All right.
Okay.
I got a couple of questions here.
Can I shoot with them?
Shoot with him, yes.
Okay, um, first of all, that Roswell thing, that declaration, my phone might be bugged, by the way, because of that.
I hope you understand that.
Okay, Michael?
No problem.
Um, I told the person about it that has to write to you.
He needs to know, he has to tell you what he saw.
No, he doesn't have to tell me anything.
He just asked for the declaration.
Just ask for the declaration.
He can tell me if he wants to, but I don't, he doesn't have to tell me anything.
Send a self address stamp envelope and that's all you need do, ma'am.
Okay, then the second thing I needed to tell is there was a woman from, I've had a long time trying to get through to you, there's a woman Yeah, I don't know if I can get her phone number or if I can just report that on the phone here.
Well, do you mean the crop circles that have been reported in the Portland area over the last couple of weeks?
The recent reports?
Yeah, it's because in Wisconsin, back in, oh, I think it was about 89 or They were having a lot of crop circles in their land too and they sounded dignified like this former caller that just called and thought it was a bunch of croc that there were D.U.F.O.s.
It was a small town and a lot of dignified folks.
Yes, we are.
They saw these vessels and they saw circles in their croplands.
All right, thank you.
Yes, we're very well aware of the Portland crop circles, aren't we, Michael?
Yes, we are.
But I think it's important to note, first of all, the crop circles have been occurring
in this country in quite a few different states from time to time over the last number of
years.
It's not just an English phenomenon, of course.
Now, we also have to say that we now know from the English experience that some crop
circles, including some of the very unusual, large, highly ornate crop formations, are
hoaxes.
It is possible to hoax some of these, but it is also not.
Next to impossible according to our best information to hoax some of the features of a genuine circle such as the work of Dr. WC 11 good out of pine landia labs the work that he's done showing the changes in the in the Cell pit structure showing changes in growth rates showing in germination rate various changes even changes in the electromagnetic behavior of the of the mature of the plant materials Saying that this is the stuff that can't be hoaxed it takes real work to test this stuff Now, that testing has not been done, to my knowledge, on the Oregon material, but Linda mentioned earlier that she's trying to get some samples.
It would be important to find that out.
I'm sure it's on the way.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Art, how you doing?
Just fine.
Where are you, sir?
Albuquerque.
Mike from Albuquerque.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lindemann.
Yes, sir.
My father was reading to me from a book by a man named George Andrews this afternoon, and in the book it states that in one particular county in Pennsylvania in the 1970s, in one year period, there was over 130 UFO sightings where there was an association with Bigfoot.
Are you familiar with any of this?
Well, I confess I'm not familiar with the Pennsylvania sightings, but I am very definitely familiar with claims of Bigfoot in association with some UFO sightings.
Bigfoot, of course, is another of these extremely strange anomalous occurrences.
There's good evidence that there is such a thing as Bigfoot, the Sasquatch up in the Seattle and Northwest area there, and of course other manifestations of the same phenomenon in other parts of the world, other parts of the country.
Native Americans have been reporting this for hundreds of years.
There are a few cases, and Linda Howe is someone who's brought some of these cases forward, where there have been sightings of a seemingly Bigfoot-type character in association even with the cattle mutilation phenomenon.
So there may be a link.
I can't prove it, but I think so.
Okay, are you familiar with the work of Dr. Grover Kranz?
Can't say I am.
Okay, he's an anthropologist, professor of anthropology at the University of Washington.
Right.
And he has amassed, he's been studying the Sasquatch Phenomena for a long time, and it seems now that there's several scientists that are no longer looking at the Sasquatch Phenomena as a, let's prove its existence, you know, an anthropological standpoint.
It's now being studied in a zoological standpoint.
Right.
What is it?
I mean, that's a rhetorical question.
They know it's there, but now the question is what is it?
Yeah, the biggest piece of evidence is the dermal ridges.
Right.
Are the fingerprints on the feet.
That'd be virtually impossible to fake.
And they're finding them left and right.
I was curious if you, you know, if There was a large connection.
All right.
Thank you.
And you do find there to be a connection?
Well, no.
What I would like to say is, since Bigfoot is a little outside my range of personal study, I would only say that there have been some researchers who have established a possible connection.
I don't rule it out.
I think it's a very provocative possibility.
All right.
Well, since we've asked about that, how about Loch Ness?
Oh, sure, and after that, let's bring in... Well, I mean, there has been serious scientific inquiry in Loch Ness, and they've had readings.
I don't want to make light of Loch Ness.
I personally would be thrilled to bits if the Loch Ness monster exists, and there's a darn good chance it does.
Not only there, but in Lake Champlain, and the Ogopogo, and some lake up in, I don't know, British Columbia, or wherever it is.
It is absolutely likely, Art, that there are lots of bizarre life forms on this planet that we haven't found.
Every now and then something washes up on a beach on some shore of some ocean we find with a whole new class of whale or a whole new class of squid or some other creature we've never seen before.
Eels a hundred feet long.
It's quite possible.
I'm not sure, however, that there is any established connection between Loch Ness and UFOs.
All right.
On the wild card line, you're on the air with Michael Linneman.
Hello, where are you?
Yes, this is Dan from the University District in Seattle.
Hi, Dan.
Hi.
And, Michael, it's been a few months since I've talked to you, but I was the one who called asking questions about the Reptilians a few months ago, and you were very kind and gracious in giving me your time on that information.
I'm wondering, have you ever exchanged information with Mark McCandless?
Yes, in fact, we had an interesting exchange on this very show a couple of months ago.
I must have missed it then, because I was very, um... Well, actually, Conor, that's what led to the McCandless appearance on this program.
I see, okay.
Yeah, I thought he had a lot to say, and I'll go ahead and hang up, and I wonder if you could just say a few words about his information on UFO technology.
All right, we'll do that.
Michael, hold on just one moment.
Michael Lindemann is my guest.
We'll be right back.
For those of you who are having a hard time hearing it or straining to hear it on some distant radio station, my advice would be to call your local radio affiliate, the local radio station in your area, and inquire about Dreamland.
And toward that end, if you would like assistance, let me give you our network telephone number.
And they will give you assistance in trying to get Dreamland on your radio station.
It is area code 503-664-8829.
Hi Tom.
Do not call it now, call it beginning Tuesday during the business week.
That's area code 503-664-8829.
Michael are you there?
Yes sir.
Not a lot of time before the bottom of the hour.
Let's try a quick call on the toll free line.
You're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hello.
Yes this is Tom from San Diego KOGO.
Hi Tom.
Hi.
I am an ESP researcher and of course I'd like to have a couple questions with Mr. Liderman.
Edgar Cayce speaks of the future contact with UFOs and ESP research indicates that there is going to be Sizeable earth activity in the near future.
How does this coincide with your 2020 predictions of what we are going to be living through in the next five years with the rings of fire that are very active right now?
Alright, big earth movements, predictions by people like Casey, true.
Well, what I can say is that there is no geological precedent that we know of for the kind of Earth changes that have been predicted by some people.
For example, Gordon Michael Scallion, who firmly believes that the western third of the United States will simply be inundated.
That's right.
In any position to say these people are right or wrong, what I will say is that the probability that they're right is extremely low unless something absolutely unprecedented occurs on this planet.
Which is, of course, what they're predicting.
That is exactly what they're predicting.
I have to work from known information, known trends, and I would have to say that in my view, The likelihood of Earth changes on that scale is extremely small.
On the other hand, we know that the West Coast is a sitting duck for major earthquakes.
No question.
I live in Santa Barbara.
I'm going to move.
I tell you, I think this area is in for some serious seismic activity.
All right, Michael.
Very quickly, about a minute left, UFO Technologies going back a call.
He wanted your comment on Mark McCandlish and some of what he has to say.
Actually, I'd like to comment on that in some length, so let's do it after the break, but I will say very briefly, Mark has alerted me to two important things.
Number one, that it is quite probable that our government is in possession of what he refers to as alien replication vehicles, if we can say more about that, and he has alerted me to a new generation of lighter-than-aircraft that we have built, which have nothing to do with alien technology, but which are mistaken for UFOs, and in particular for the very large Diamond, or not diamond, but triangular shaped UFO sighted in the western states.
It may very well be that this is a lighter than air conventional technology.
I would believe that because it certainly would fit the one sighting that I've had.
We will also give you the address again.
Get a pencil for the Roswell Declaration when we come back.
So get a pencil and a piece of paper and get ready.
This is the CBC Radio Network in Dreamland.
You're listening to Dreamland on Talk Radio 102 FM.
you you
From the Kingdom of Nine, you're hearing Greenland with Art Bell.
To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255.
First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
Call free 1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
This is the CBC, your radio network.
It certainly is.
Tell you what, a couple things.
One, we're going to restrict our toll-free line to east of the Rocky Mountains for the next 25 minutes of the program.
Remember, only those of you east of the Rocky Mountains on the toll-free line at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255, east of the Rockies only.
Now, in addition, I do wanna get this out again, very, very important, the Roswell Declaration,
to get it, to sign it, to be part of it, all you've gotta do is send a self-addressed
stamped envelope, no money, self-addressed stamped envelope to Michael Lindeman, 3463 State Street,
Box 264, Santa Barbara, California.
Santa Barbara, California.
Zip code 9-3-1-0-5.
93-1-0-5.
Is that right, Michael?
That's correct.
Alright, good.
Here's a fact that just came in.
When Michael Lindemann mentioned the newly discovered age of the Sphinx, he must have been referring to the show broadcast a few months ago called The Mystery of the Sphinx.
In the show, it was also reported that a new chamber had been discovered at the base of the Sphinx, as had been predicted by Casey.
Unfortunately, the process of getting permission to open that chamber was being met with resistance from the Egyptian bureaucracy.
Please ask Michael if he has any information on whether there's been any progress in this area.
Well, I'm glad your listener is informed.
Everything he said is true.
Unfortunately, I do not have an update.
I am in touch with some people who are monitoring that situation very closely, and I would like to check with them and perhaps comment on that next time you and I talk, Art.
You could even pass it along to your audience if I'm not on the program.
But right now, I'm not aware of any progress, and the person who faxed it is absolutely correct.
The Egyptian government is Very much resisting this.
Now there's a reason for this.
It's not just a question of whether you just go digging in Egyptian soil without permission.
That could... I mean, in fact, the Egyptian government may be receiving pressure from other governments much more powerful than itself.
Because if they open that chamber and break loose a library of information that is more than 10,000 years old, there is no telling how many sacred cows will get butchered over that.
All right, well, we'll stay in touch on that issue.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hello.
Hello, Mr. Lindemann.
This is Todd in SeaTac.
You've made repeated reference to Zacharias Sitchin and his work, The Twelfth Planet, where he states that the ancient Sumerian tablets, of which they've found thousands, state that the Nephilim, as they're called, came to Earth and genetically engineered Homo sapien from Homo erectus.
How do you feel about Mr. Sitchin's statements?
And the accuracy of them as compared to the Sumerian tablets?
Well, first of all, you're asking me, can I read Sumerian and can I interpret the huge amount of Sumerian information in the manner of Mr. Sitchin?
The fact is, I cannot.
And very few people on Earth can.
So, the fact is that very few people actually challenge Mr. Sitchin on the level of his scholarship.
They certainly challenge his conclusions because they're They're outrageous.
We can say that without any, you know, without any quibble.
But the fact is that Mr. Sitchin is among a handful of people qualified to interpret this material.
And I find his interpretation most fascinating.
But I really can't comment on it more than that.
All right.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Where are you calling from?
St.
Louis.
St.
Louis.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Lindemann.
Yes, sir.
During your talks, you mentioned the continuity of government program.
Yes.
I have a question.
Your partner, Ralph Steiner, in a radio show on the Pacifica station of Berkeley a few years ago, Well, if it were happening, I would say that would be a very cover-up-able kind of fact, okay?
bizarre. Could this be a major reason for the continuing cover-up?
Well, if it were happening, I would say that would be a very cover-up-able kind of fact,
okay? Now, I can't say it's happening, but I will say that certainly the United States
has built enormous underground bases. Whether there are aliens in them or not remains to
be seen. However, I would like to point out a new book that will not necessarily be well-known
to your listening audience that I think is very important.
It's called Taken, and it And it's subtitled, Inside the Alien-Human Abduction Agenda.
It is by a woman named Karla Turner, and by the way, Karla would make a fine guest for a future show.
Karla is a PhD professor, herself an abductee, as is her husband.
She has written a book about eight people, six of whom believe there were human beings In some cooperative fashion with alien abductors.
This, of course, is an extraordinary claim, but Carla is no fool.
Michael, can you get me contact information?
I sure can.
All right, good.
Good, we'll look forward to it.
She sounds good.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lineman.
Where are you calling from, please?
Hello?
Yes, where are you, sir?
I have a question for your guest.
This harks back to a comment that someone else had made earlier in the show regarding the differences of opinion, let's say, among the UFO research community.
Recently, I read Jacques Belly's book, Revelation, in which There's virtually no one in the ufology research area that doesn't come away with a bloody nose.
Everyone from John Leary to Bill Cooper to Major Kehoe, everybody else.
Millie is considered the preeminent ufologist in the world today, and yet reading his book, Revelations, you come away His basic thesis is that much of the value about UFOs and abductions and so forth is part true.
There's something going on out there, but much of it is generated by the military intelligence complex.
And they've so well infiltrated and co-opted The research efforts that it's hard to tell anymore who's telling the truth, what's manufactured.
That's true.
Alright, I get the message.
Can I comment on that?
Yeah, please go right ahead.
It's a good one.
And by the way, some of the people he mentioned are not at the center of the scientific community investigating this phenomenon.
Go ahead, Michael.
Alright.
Bottom line, I have great respect for Jacques Vallée.
Jacques Vallée is an important, you might say, and almost a dissident voice in UFO research today, but he operates at an almost unique level of subtlety.
And for that reason, he cannot be ignored, even if he is making statements that make everybody angry, and he does that on a regular basis.
But the fact is that Dr. Vallee is basically saying our analysis tends to be too simplistic, too linear, too western-scientistic.
We are trying too hard to squeeze a round peg in a square hole.
This ufology business is not a bunch of aliens that look approximately like us driving around in Toyota spacecraft.
It isn't like that at all, he said.
It's much more complicated, much more subtle.
And he's right.
I'm convinced he's right.
Now that does not mean that everything he says is right.
I think Dr. Vallee takes pot shots sometimes because he's aggravated at the stupidity of some ufologists.
So I would say read his book.
With respect, but also take it with a grain of salt, Revelations in particular is a book flawed by a number of simple factual inaccuracies, which he has had the graciousness to cop to on a few occasions.
But Dr. Vallee, if nothing else, has done us a service by saying, look, It isn't all that simple.
Guess again.
And he's also pointed out that there may be a control system operating in which the aliens themselves are manipulating our perception of who they are.
And the caller also pointed out the military has made such a hodgepodge out of the various situations that it's hard to tell.
Who's telling the truth and who isn't?
There's no question that that statement is true.
Indeed, that is the very nature of disinformation.
Jacques Pollet is right when he says that the whole field is loaded from top to bottom with deception.
That deception is coming from at least three places.
Place number one, our own military, our own government structure, which has had a huge stake in all of this deception.
Number two, the aliens are foisting deception on us without a doubt.
And third of all, of course, each and every one of us personally is prone to self-deception.
This is an easy place to get completely screwed up and deluded, and we have to stop every couple of minutes and say, wait a minute, maybe I'm dead wrong.
Well, all of that together creates an awfully large noise level, doesn't it?
You bet.
A very large noise level.
The signal is a very hard one to find, and you really have to hold out.
I always say to my audiences, please, do not jump to the ready answer.
You need, above all in this field, a high tolerance for ambiguity.
We don't have the answer.
All right.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Linneman.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
This is Linda from Maple Valley, Washington.
Yes.
My question is, for Michael, is it possible that this wave is because it takes them such a long time to get here and get back, and what does he think about different dimensions?
Well, the question of dimensions is an important one.
It raises all kinds of philosophical as well as physical science level questions that I'm not prepared to answer.
Is it possible that they're flitting in and out of dimensions?
Sure, it's just as possible that they're doing that.
As it is that they're traveling through time, which I regard as a possibility, or that they're using some sort of hyperdrive.
I mean, for heaven's sakes, for the last 25 years, we've been hearing that the Star Trek people have something that they call warp, and indeed, if we were ever going to really travel around the stars, we would need something like that.
Jules Verne, a hundred years ago, said we'd be flying through the skies, or, you know, traveling in submarines under the ice caps.
He was right, as it happens, but that was a hundred years ago.
Are we going to come up with this technology?
Maybe.
Have they come up with it?
Quite probably.
Does it take them a really long time to come from Star A to here?
I doubt it.
I don't think we would see the numbers we see if it was really a matter of them traveling years and years and years to get here.
I think that is extremely improbable.
There must be some other way to do it.
All right, Michael.
Hold on just a sec.
We'll be right back to you.
Michael Lindemann is my guest.
Still time to get in if you would like to play, if you would like to try.
I know the lines are awfully clogged, but be patient.
You will get through.
Absolutely.
Where are you calling from?
Yes, sir.
Okay, here we go again.
Short on time now.
You're on the air with Michael Lineman.
Where are you calling from, please?
No, you're not.
We'll go here to the wildcard line.
You're on the air with Michael Linneman.
Hello.
Hi, Eric.
This is Matt in Portland.
Hi, Matt.
Hi, Michael.
Great show, Art.
Thank you.
Dan from the University District asked Michael, I guess, on another occasion about the reptiles.
I'd just like to get Michael's input on that.
All right.
I'm sorry, about the what?
The reptiles.
Oh.
Well, there are several kinds of aliens often described.
The most commonly described in this country, of course, is the grays, the slightly built gray characters with the large black eyes.
The humanoid type, the type that look essentially like us, is the next most often reported, and the third most often reported are so-called reptilians.
Humanoid-type beings that have reptilian-type features, that is, perhaps scaly skin or skin of a greenish tone, a very muscular build, large claws in some cases, large teeth, odd facial features.
Do these beings exist?
Well, I would say the answer is I don't know, but the reports are very, very frequent.
And so if these people who are reporting them aren't crazy, then we have to assume it's possible that they could exist.
They would be my least favorite.
If you're talking about ones to meet up with, I'm not wild about reptiles anyway.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hello.
Yes, why should we know that aliens do actually exist?
Where are you, sir?
Okay, well, I guess we just missed that one.
On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Hello, this is Mike Cullen from Seattle.
Hi, Mike.
I'm a MUFON member up here and we're busily getting out these Roswell declarations also.
Great!
And I just wanted to throw in an idea.
What we're doing is not only sending them to MUFON headquarters, we're sending a copy, duplicate copy, to each one of our representatives.
And I wanted to, if possible, give out my phone number Because anybody in Washington State who wants to call me, I'll pay the postage and send a copy of a blank declaration to them.
I'm sorry, caller.
Without checking it out, I can't just let you get out a phone number.
Okay.
I'm terribly sorry.
Let me just tell you what.
If they want to come to the MUFON meeting at the Bothell Library next...
On July 16th they can get a copy there.
That's fine.
That's good.
Let me just comment real quickly that part of the overall strategy is that when there is a cutoff date, which is sometime in the late fall, I don't know exactly when, at that time all of the declarations that have been received are going to be compiled.
And they will be divided out according to congressional districts, so that copies of the declaration will be sent.
The number that were sent from any district will be sent to that district representative, and the entire thing will also be sent to key members of the administration, including the president and the vice president.
So, you're in effect, caller, you're doing something that's a little redundant, but I think it should be done.
I think your representatives should know, and I applaud your effort.
All right, good.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann.
Good evening.
Well, goodness gracious, I finally got on.
Yes, where are you?
I got pushed redialed.
Where are you, sir?
I'm in Spokane, Washington.
All right.
And we're kind of remiss because we don't have any sightings around here very much.
All we had was somebody shooting the hell out of about 21 people at the Air Force Base, and then about four days later, a B-52 crashed at the same place, and nobody mentioned a thing about it.
Well, on the other hand, I think this is fascinating, and I... Well, yes, sir.
On my regular program, my syndicated program, we talked a great deal about what happened up there.
Good.
I missed it.
Yes, you did.
I wish you were on more in this genre every night instead of more toward the political thing, but that's another... Well, now, wait a minute.
You just complained about lack of coverage, and I just told you we covered it, and now you're saying you want this stuff back?
No, you shouldn't have covered it.
The media should have.
I see.
Anyway, do you have a question?
You're a special entity.
I don't have a question so much as I'm just in total awe of what's going on.
Most of my experiences are spiritual in nature and gosh, this opens up a whole new area of bewilderment to me.
What can we expect in the future?
I mean, is this the strange goings-on in the sky that we're not supposed to look at that's described in the Bible, or what?
Alright, there's a good question.
There's a good question.
Well, I think we touched on that earlier.
There are, of course, many prophecies from the Bible as well as other scriptures around the world.
Indicating this is a very special time.
There may be events that occur over the next couple of years that have the appearance of the fulfillment of prophecy.
I believe we are going to gradually, we are, as I said earlier, coming of age in the cosmic neighborhood.
We are learning that we are part.
Of a very broad, very diverse neighborhood of cosmic intelligences.
Many of these beings do not look like us.
Some seem to look rather like us, but we're just getting to know the neighbors.
And we, in fact, are the new kids on the block.
It's going to be a very interesting time.
Yes, it will.
On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Michael Lindman.
Hello, where are you calling from, please?
Southern California?
Yes, sir.
Hi, um, I had two questions.
The first one is about the planet Jupiter and the impact of the comet, uh, Levy-Shumaker that's supposed to be... Shumaker-Levy 9.
Right.
Uh, the remnants of it.
Yes, good question.
And, uh, of course, you know, what, what sort of activity may we expect to see from here on Earth or up in the sky?
Alright, thanks, thank you.
We're gonna have to hold it there.
We're so short on time.
Shumaker-Levy 9, the impact of the pieces.
Well, as Linda said earlier, the impact will begin approximately July 16th.
This is considered to be the greatest astronomical event of the century.
Every telescope that is available on Earth will be looking at it.
And, of course, we also have the Galileo spacecraft out near Jupiter right now that is going to try its best to take a look at it.
Part of the problem is that the events are occurring on the backside of Jupiter with respect to our vantage point.
However, interestingly, the impact points are only approximately 10 minutes away from the horizon, because Jupiter turns very fast.
So they're hoping that they're going to see very large amounts of residual light and other manifestations of energy.
They are calling these impacts the largest explosions that have ever occurred in recorded
history inside of our solar system.
Now, what will that mean on our planet?
It ranges from, depending on who you ask, it ranges from, it won't mean anything at
all except a darn good astronomical event, out to predictions by some people who may
be a little bit shrill in their notions, that this could have very large, even catastrophic
events.
That it could precipitate, for example, earth changes.
People think that this may be a trigger.
I, frankly, strongly doubt that scenario.
So do I. So do I, Michael.
Do you think it's a big snowball, or is it a hunk of iron?
You mean what's coming in?
Yeah.
Um, well, according to our best estimate, it's closer to a snowball than a hunk of iron.
Alright, well.
Alright, we're so short on time.
Michael, uh, the Roswell Declaration, so important.
One more time, give everybody, uh, please, your address so they can get it.
Right.
Send, uh, a stamped-address-self envelope to... I'd say that again.
A stamped, self-addressed envelope.
There we go.
To Michael Lindeman, that's L-I-N-D-E-M-A-N-N.
The address is 3463 State Street, Box 264, Santa Barbara, California, 93105.
And when you get the declaration, I would appreciate it if you would read it, sign it, send it in to the address on the declaration.
But even better yet, when you get it, if you know people who might want a copy, make copies first, hand them out, and then sign it and send it in.
So you not only don't object to making copies... Please, don't do it!
And what about people who will make copies and then fax it to other people?
Is that legitimate as well?
I see no problem with that.
Make sure that they get both sides, however, it's a two-sided document.
All right.
Michael, we're out of time.
That's it.
Another wonderful appearance on the program, and of course, we will have you back again.
Thank you so much, Art.
It's been a blast.
And if you get a chance to supply me with contact information on Carla Turner, I'd sure love it.
I will do that.
Michael, thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Take care.
Michael Lindemann, and I'm sorry, everybody, there is never enough time on this program.
There is never enough time.
If you would like a copy of this program or any...
Dreamland program.
Uh, the number to call is area code 503-664-7966.
Once again, and you can call it 24 hours a day, the magic number is area code 503-664-7966.
They will get you a copy of any Dreamland program we've done since the inception.
Thank you all.
Good night.
This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not that.
Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
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