Art Bell

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Feb. 9, 1994 - Art Bell

02:19:35

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Romona and Art Triangle UFO Sighting - John Lear

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47:40

john lear

01:02:52

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One moment, John Lear.
		Before I get to John, and we have in uh radio the luxury of a lot of time, John is uh on the line and able to hear what I'm saying right now.
		And I guess I'm going to begin this show with my experience, so it's out of the way.
		And I'm going to relate this experience to you because it really, in some ways, accounts for why John is here on this particular morning.
		Because when I saw what I saw this last Sunday, I picked up the phone the moment I hit the house and called John Lear's house.
		Unfortunately, at that point, got a tape and related briefly my experience.
		And John called me the next day, and it was like a confession or something.
		I had to get hold of John.
		So here's what happened briefly this last Sunday, and I will neither, if I'm able, add to it or detract from it.
		I'm going to tell you the story just as it happened.
		On my way home to a little town to the west of Las Vegas, about 60 miles to the west, called Perrump, Nevada.
		And I was about a mile from home and on a street that runs from east-west, and I was traveling east to west to intersect with a street that runs north-south and would take me on the final leg home.
		It was about 11, it was between 11 and 11.30.
		I'm sorry, I didn't really note the time that carefully, but somewhere in that window between 11 and 11.30, I should suspect about 11.15 or 20 would be my best guess.
		And I was on this final street, and all of a sudden, you'll recall the moon was a bit fuller than it is now, so it was fairly well lit up.
		The weather conditions were calm.
		If there was a breeze, it was a very, very light breeze as to be insignificant.
		My wife caught something, I guess, out of the corner of her eye and turned around, looked out the back window and said, what in the hell is that?
		I said, I don't know.
		And I stopped the car and turned off the headlights and rolled down my window.
		And coming up from behind us, just off the driver's side, was something large.
		I would guesstimate it would be 100 feet across.
		Absolutely triangular.
		And I would guess it to be at about 150 feet in altitude.
		And it was coming up literally behind us.
		Its direction of travel was roughly east, southeast, and traveling towards the west-northwest.
		And it was lit.
		There were two white lights and one strobing red light, stroving at a rate faster than you would associate with normal aviation traffic.
		The object was moving very slowly.
		The word I would use to describe its movement was more floating.
		Certainly it was going at a rate that would not sustain conventional aircraft in flight.
		There just wouldn't be enough lift at that speed.
		So it was floating, and it literally floated right across the, or very nearly across the top of my car, just a little off to the driver's side.
		And I'll tell you, the sky was lit well enough that when I looked up at it, I was able to discern the substance of it.
		And it was black and solid and triangular.
		And it moved out and across my area very slowly, floated out across and continued to float in a west-northwesterly direction until I could see it literally going across the entire valley.
		And I was able to keep sight of it for, I don't know, maybe as much as three or four minutes somewhere in there.
		And then I finally lost sight of it.
		So I have absolutely no idea what I saw, except that it was large.
		It was precisely as I described to you.
		It wasn't a guess.
		It was not an indistinct light.
		This was without question a craft.
		The question is, was it a craft that our military has, that we don't know that they have, or was it from someplace else?
		I don't know.
		I would suspect the first before the second, but certainly either one is possible.
		So that was my experience.
		I'm 48 years old.
		I've never seen one of these things before.
		I didn't think I ever would see one, but I did.
		My wife was witness as well.
		I actually put her on the air the other morning for about 30 seconds just because I didn't want to be out there twisting slowly in the breeze by myself.
		And I'm still thinking about all this.
		So there it is.
		For what it is, for what it's worth, that's my story.
		And I swear to you, it is true.
		John Lear.
		John Lear is an airline captain.
		John has flown 160 different types of aircraft in over 50 different countries in all types of flying.
		Experimental test flying, production test flying, airline passenger flying, cargo hauling, movie work, stunt flying, aircraft ferrying, airdropping missions, racing, and secret missions of all kinds.
		Lear held 18 world speed records in the Learjet, including speed around the world, and holds the most FAA airman certificates issued to a single individual, which include the airline transport rating, flight instructor, ground instructor, navigator, flight engineer, flight dispatcher, airframe and power plant mechanic, control tower operator, and parachute rigger.
		He's been a commercial pilot for 30 years and has been flying for 35.
		He holds the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Award for Outstanding Airmanship presented in 1968.
		He's flown missions worldwide for various government agencies, flew in Southeast Asia between 1967 and 1973, and has flown extensively in Europe, the Middle East, Afghanistan, the Far East, and Africa.
	As a non-sked pilot, he has over 16,000 hours of flight time, of which over 12,000 hours are in jets.
	Lear's father, of course, was William P. Lear Sr., who not only helped develop the first car radio, the A-Track stereo, the automatic pilot for fighter aircraft, but who developed the Lear jet, one of the first and most successful of all business jet aircraft.
	Lear studied industrial design at the Arts Center College in Los Angeles and was a state Senate candidate in Nevada in 1980.
	He's written extensively about airplanes and other subjects and was Middle East correspondent for Combat Illustrated between 1975 and 1977 while stationed in Beirut.
	He is an amateur photographer and astronomer and has won several photography awards for pictures taken during his worldwide travels.
	In the early 70s, Lear owned and skippered the 12-meter America's Cup boat Soliloquy out of Marina Del Rey.
	Lear's interest in UFOs began after reading Bud Hopkins' book, Missing Time, and then a chance encounter with U.S. Air Force pilot who was at a base in England where an extraterrestrial craft landed in December of 1980.
	Ladies and gentlemen, John Lear.
	Good morning, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		All right, how you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you back.
		Thank you.
		I don't know where to start, John, except I'm sure you were listening and heard what I had to say.
		That is exactly as my experience occurred.
		I never thought I'd have one, John.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's still...
		It's...
		The audience has helped because they've kept talking about it, but it's just preying on my mind.
		Any idea what I saw?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, if I had to guess, based on all the stories I have heard, I would say that it's an A-12 Avenger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, one other fact, John, that I did leave out, and that was that it was very still.
		I've said on the air, you could hear a cricket a quarter mile away, and that was the case.
		It was very quiet.
		And as close as this doggone thing was to me, John, it did not make a sound.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a sound?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what kind of A-12 Avenger, what is that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		We have some very, very quiet airplanes.
		And like I say, I'm not saying what it was, just what I think it was.
		The A-12 Avenger is the airplane that was canceled.
		It was the Navy fighter bomber that was canceled about a year ago by the Pentagon because of cost overruns.
		It was being built by General Dynamics and McDonnell Douglas.
		And what happened is when the funds were withdrawn for this thing, unbeknownst to the public and everybody else, there was about 10 to 13 of this craft already in various stages of construction, most of them already built.
		So when they withdrew the funds to this craft, they asked Lockheed to get it in the air.
		And they took these, it was about 10 to 13 airplanes and worked on them.
		What they had to do is these were Navy airplanes ostensibly for a carrier and they had to, one of the overweight mechanisms was the wing folding mechanism and some other things in it and put engines in them and started flying.
		And they're extremely, extremely quiet.
		And they're the ones that are flying around.
		Now, one of the reasons why I say this is because if it had been anything strange, like something extraterrestrial, it's possible that it would have canceled your or put out your headlights or your engine or something like that, which is usually the way.
		Also, there wouldn't have been the white light on it, possibly the red light, but I don't know if anybody has seen a saucer with a flashing red light, no matter what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Other aspect it had, John, was it was flying too slow to be sustained in flight aerodynamically, as I understand it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it was, John, it was floating.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, now that's the one thing, because conventional craft do need lift, and although the Delta plan form does create quite a bit of lift, it does need a little bit of speed.
		So since I wasn't there and I don't know, I didn't see it, I'm not sure what it was.
		But it sure sounds like these A-12 Avengers, you know, one of the things they do, and I say they, is we, the public, don't get to know all those secrets.
		So one of the things they do is they play little tricks on us.
		They find out what we're doing, what the important people are doing, what Art Bell is doing on Sunday night, and fly out and intercept him and fly over him and get him to say that he saw an extraterrestrial craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, but Art Bell's not said that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And then when they're in the briefing room, they say, hey, man, guess what?
		Art Bell says he saw me fly, and I guess I'm an alien, huh?
		And that's their little joke that they play on the public.
		So I'm not saying that happened, but that's the little things that they like to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, my guess would have to be, I said it earlier in the week, if somebody pressed me against the wall and said, we want your best guess and out with it now or we're punching you, I'd have had to say, I thought that it might be some sort of military secret aircraft.
		That is my first guess.
		And there was nothing about it that would suggest, except that it's like it performed as nothing, John, I've ever Seen or that I've understood on earth could fly in the air too slow, too quiet, too close.
		It was so close.
		That was the thing about it, John.
		I could see all the substance of it.
		Not details, no windows, no markings, nothing like that.
		But I saw the black craft come over.
		You know, it was dark black, and the sky was lighter because it was near a full moon.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one thing that doesn't make sense is they don't like to fly those things on any night when there's any kind of a moon because it does let people see what they are.
		Also, the engines that we have, even though our technology base is about 30 years ahead of where the public thinks it is, we're kind of strapped to turbine and fan jet engines, and they do make some sound.
		So being that low and that close, it would seem that they would make a noise.
		But I'm going to have to stick with that it's a craft of ours.
		There's a lot of things they have.
		There's probably five or six airplanes that they have that the public doesn't know anything about.
		For instance, the F-19, which was built right along on the same assembly line as the F-117A, has been flying around for almost 12 years now.
		It's an AD fighter with a delta wing plan form, a very, very strange-looking aircraft, and the public doesn't know anything about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Frankly, John, I had not heard that many reports of triangular UFOs.
		I thought mine was unique, and I came on the air and reported it, and all of a sudden people started sending me newspaper articles and reports of triangular objects sighted up in the state of Washington, and on and on and on.
		My fax machine lit up.
		And so apparently there have been, and so did my telephone.
		So there have been quite a few sightings of that sort.
		And you would attribute most of them, do you think, John, to experimental U.S. aircraft?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, some of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some of them.
		Some of them.
		Are there any substantial reports that you know of, John, of alien craft or craft that appeared to be alien that were triangular?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, not that I've heard.
		They're mostly the flying wing type, huge flying wings or circular craft.
		But I haven't heard too much of the triangular type being what we think of as extraterrestrial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there was a program on Fox last night that I fortunately know that you saw because I called you.
		And as a matter of fact, my boss called me and said, hey, it's on.
		I switched over and I caught it.
		And the whole cast of characters was there.
		Linda Howe, she's on my Sunday Area 2000 show, George Knapp, same deal.
		Stanton Friedman, I noticed.
		Bob Lazar.
		There was a picture there of S-12 that was attributed to you.
		So the whole cast of characters, Bud Hopkins and on and on and on, all of them were on.
		It was an excellent show.
		What did you think of it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was very interesting.
		It's about two or three years old.
		And I remember when Sightings did that program, it was one of their first ones.
		They did do the interview with Bob Lazar, which was very interesting.
		And, of course, George Knapp and Linda Howe were on there.
		You know, George, when I first went on George Knapp's program on the record in 1987, you know, he, I clearly remember him very, very skeptical.
		You know, geez, John, you know, this is kind of hard to believe, you know, extraterrestrial craft at the test site.
		And after a couple years, he went, you know, got pretty involved in the research and then did those very, very well done programs that he did, the UFO's best evidence.
		And now he's out on the road.
		He does almost every UFO lecture on the lecture beat that there is.
		And he doesn't, it seems as though he remembers himself initiating the investigation into UFOs, but he doesn't remember that I was on his program and I originally started.
		Not that I care one way or the other, but it would be nice for him to say once in a while, John Lear was the one that originally piqued my interest and did the initial investigation on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, John, I would say you are the great granddaddy of researchers in the UFO field.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a lot of people before me, but as far as George Knapp is concerned, it would be nice for once in a while for him to say, you know, John Lear was the greatest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he may, John, what he may feel is, you know, he was a mainline sort of journalist, and he may feel that he was one of the first mainline journalists to really turn his head to this whole affair.
		And that may be fair to say.
		That's right.
		The other thing that I found significant that he said was that he investigated the mob, you know, here in Las Vegas for years and years and years.
		And the fear associated with investigating the mob, according to him, was almost nothing compared to the fear generated by the investigation of this UFO phenomenon.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's probably true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You concur with that, huh?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I never investigated the mob, but I knew Ned Day very well, and he's the one that gave George most of his contacts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm sure that would be so.
		But nevertheless, that's quite a statement to make, that the fear associated with this ultimately is even bigger than the fear associated with investigating the mob.
		John, we're going to take a break here at the bottom of the hour, and we'll come back and get into all of this a little deeper.
		Stay right where you are.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Great, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to Coast to Coast AM from Las Vegas.
		My guest is John Lear, subject UFOs.
		More in a moment.
		Here is my guest.
		Standard warning, if this kind of program disturbs you, by all means, take a hike, turn your radio off, and come back another day.
		And this does disturb and upset some people.
		It's a very sensitive topic.
		It's about UFOs, unidentified flying objects, or as some people call them, identified flying objects, and I think John is one of those.
		I just had an interesting call.
		John, I just had a call off The air from a source that I trust who said, Art, area 22, and I don't have any idea what that is, and the old area S4 or the area up right up around S4 or above S4 is now occupied by the Navy.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was always occupied by the Navy.
		As a matter of fact, that's where Lazarus checks came from, was Department of Naval Intelligence.
		As a matter of fact, the Navy has always been ahead of all of these projects.
		They've just used the U.S. Air Force as the whipping boy.
		When the Air Force recovered the saucers, the first ones in 1947, in fact, Admiral Hillencotter was appointed head of MJ-12, and the Navy took control of the whole program and always have been in charge of this program.
		They were head of both what is known old as Area 51, referred to as the Box, and S-4, which is near Papua Lake, in charge of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		John, we have many new affiliate radio stations here on the network since you've last been on.
		So a lot of people really don't know a whole lot about you one way or the other.
		I read your bio at the beginning, but they don't know a whole lot about you, and there is quite a story.
		So briefly, John, I'll tell you, as I saw this thing, when I saw this thing last Sunday, I had a full day to think about whether I really wanted to come on the air and talk about it or not.
		And I went back and forth arguing with myself during that period, trying to decide whether I would publicly admit this.
		And I'm still not fully certain I did the right thing because I've taken some heat because of it, John.
		So then this is what I'm relating to your decision working for a commercial airline company, coming out publicly with all of this UFO business.
		You might give my audience a little history about what happened when you did that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I got interested in UFOs, so to speak.
		I kind of had a little bit of interest because my dad used to talk about it quite a bit.
		But I wasn't all that interested until 1985 when I ran into a friend who I knew in Laos.
		I flew over in Southeast Asia for about six or seven years.
		This guy was one of the guys that flew in one of the covert programs over there called the Steve Canyon program.
		He was a Raven, for those of you who know who Ravens were.
		Anyway, many years later, he came to Knowledge Air Force Base transferring into the Guard, the Air Force Guard.
		And he called, gave me a call, came up to the house, and we were talking about one thing and another, and I asked him where all he'd been based.
		And one of the places he mentioned was Bentwaters.
		And Bentwaters is a United States Air Force Base in England, about 70 miles northwest of London.
		And most pilots have heard about a saucer that supposedly landed in December of 1980.
		And when he said Bentwaters, I said, oh, that's supposedly where that saucer landed.
		And he said, no, John, supposedly it did.
		He said, I didn't see it because I was confined to quarters, but I talked to the guys who did.
		And if you ever run into them, you know, just ask them about it.
		And he gave me their names.
		One was General Gordon Williams, one was Major Ted Conrad, and another was Lieutenant Colonel Chuck Halt.
		And although I didn't run into those guys, I ran into other people who had been there and had seen the saucer and the three aliens get out and walk up to General Gordon Williams.
		Well, anyway, this set me on an investigation.
		I thought I knew a lot about secret and covert programs, and it's been one of my big interests is figuring out what's really going on.
		And so I checked around for about two years, writing letters and talking to people and came up with the astounding revelation that, yes, it was true there were UFOs, that our government was dealing with extraterrestrials, unbeknownst to almost 100% of the public, and that it was real and going on.
		And for my efforts, there were several very nasty articles that were printed about me.
		I was called into the company that I worked for then.
		I was a senior captain with a major charter company located in the Midwest.
		And they called me in one day and they said, hey, is it true that you believe in flying sauce?
		I said, well, yeah, as a matter of fact, yes.
		They said, why?
		And I gave them briefly what I just told you.
		And they said, well, we can't have any captains that believe in that flying for us.
		You're fired.
		And they took my ID and I was out the door in 20 minutes from a company that I'd worked for for 10 years.
		So that certainly cost me dearly.
		I might say that I've flown some fun airplanes and had some fun after that.
		So it wasn't a total loss.
		I went on to fly the DC-8 for some different companies and really enjoyed myself.
		But that was basically what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, there have been a couple times during your long investigative years when I know that you've sort of shut down.
		For a time, you did no interviews at all.
		And I think perhaps you did one during that period with me.
		Other than that, you shut down completely.
		And I wonder if that was a result of this kind of pressure or you just felt you had gone as far as you could go or got discouraged over the whole thing or what led to that sort of shutdown for a while.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		What leads to that shutdown is it's so overwhelming, the truth of it all, the hugeness of it, the reality of it.
		When it hits you that it's all so real, sometimes you can't handle it.
		Like there have been several people that I've talked to at the test site that have worked up there, and there's very, very few of them that are in to the extent where they know about the government's dealing with the extraterrestrials.
		They'll quit the program and they'll say, I don't want anything more to do with it.
		I don't want to hear about it.
		I don't want to See anything.
		I want to retire and live out my life in peace.
		It just becomes so overwhelming what's going on.
		And that's essentially what happened to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yet you've come back.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I come back because I get phone.
		You know, you're out of it for two or three months or three or four months, and then you kind of wonder what's going on.
		You make a call and you hear about some neat new thing that's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it pulls you right back into it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Back into the deal, you know.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to deal briefly with the cover-up aspect of it.
		Everybody thinks there is a cover-up.
		If indeed all this is going on, there has to be a cover-up.
		Timothy Goode wrote Above Top Secret, the implication of it, and they covered it on the UFO report on Fox last night, a couple of presidents, people in high places have tried to get this out, but even presidents, according to this report last night, have been denied, and actually requests denied.
		Whoever knows about all this is keeping it very, very close indeed if a president of the United States can't pry it loose.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, the president of the United States does not have a very high security clearance.
		He's an elected official, and the people who run this have a tremendous disdain for both elected and appointed officials.
		Those people aren't in office long enough, first of all, to be vetted to get a security clearance, and most of them are not in, so they don't get it.
		So one of the misconceptions that people have is they think that top secret is a big clearance.
		They'll say, well, I know Colonel so-and-so in the Air Force, and he had a Top Secret clearance, and he didn't know anything about UFOs.
		Well, I'll tell you something about clearances.
		Top secret is the absolute lowest you can get.
		Above Top Secret, there are 28 levels of what they call Top Secret Crypto, and they're labeled Top Secret Crypto 1 through 28.
		And then above that, there's 10 levels of clearances, each one higher than the other, that are names, like Umbra and Ultra and Majestic, Majestic being the highest of all clearances.
		The President of the United States holds around, not exactly, but around Top Secret Crypto 17.
		They tell him basically what he needs to know.
		The President of the United States makes decisions on information that is fed to him by the CIA and NSA, DIA, and various other groups.
		He doesn't look at raw data that comes in.
		He gets summaries of information, and those people just feed him the information that they want him to make decisions on.
		And that's the only information he gets.
		He really doesn't have a need to know all this stuff, although as far as the extraterrestrials and UFOs, they tell him a little bit.
		They say, yeah, we have some saucers, and yes, we have some dealings, but that's about it.
		So basically, that's how it goes.
		The President of the United States does not have a need to know to run the day-to-day stuff.
		He's merely a figurehead as far as running our country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		This implies, then, an ongoing, literally, I guess, I hate to use the phrase because it's such a catchphrase, but a secret government, a government that transcends presidential administrations that come and go and holds some very important information always to itself.
		About right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
		And that was set up by President Truman in 1947.
		It was called the MJ-12.
		He initially appointed the 12 persons that were part of that secret government.
		They were various intelligence, military, and scientific personnel to basically study the recovered saucer and the implications of it.
		And then when Eisenhower was elected in 1952, he felt that the secret was so important that he gave essentially the teeth to MJ-12 to actually make the major decisions of the country based on what they had found out.
		And Eisenhower essentially regretted what he did in 1960.
		He made a talk, made a speech in which he said, beware of the military-industrial complex, which he himself had created by giving MJ-12 so much power.
		For those persons who believe or who don't believe that MJ-12 exists, my source I will release when that person dies.
		He's one of the top military figures of this country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He is going to have a long wait, do you suppose?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Elderly, it will not be a long wait.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And when he does pass away, I will tell you my source for the existence of MJ-12, which I believe to be the secret government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's going to be a big story, and I hope you'll break it here.
		Yeah, sure.
		Yeah, sure.
		Means a lot.
		John, there have been remarkable rumors, rumblings, and anger about this Mars mission.
		The one that just apparently, I say apparently, failed.
		Here we had a craft, a billion-dollar just-about craft, with no doubt very high-resolution equipment on board.
		I would think at least equivalent to our K-8 series of satellites, meaning we would have received incredible detailed photographs of Mars.
		And just before the orbit insertion burn, they lost contact.
		It either blew up or it transistor went belly up or whatever their latest story is.
		I don't know, but I would like your...
		What are you hearing?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was the same thing as the Hubble telescope failure.
		Neither event ever occurred.
		The Hubble telescope was looking at things which were, in effect, none of the public's business.
		So they just said that it failed.
		And that way they could look at things they need to do without the public saying, hey, you know, how about showing us?
		We paid for this thing.
		Let's see it.
		And NASA doesn't want to show us.
		So they say, oh, you know, it failed.
		Oh, we're sending out some astronauts in a few years to fix it.
		And then we'll be able to, you know, to show you.
		Same thing with the Mars Observer.
		They had some problems with the Mars Observer in that it was going to show some very high-resolution pictures of Mars, which we wanted to see, particularly the Sidonia region in which the so-called face on Mars exists,
		which NASA says is just a trick of light and shadows, but in fact it is a huge face over a kilometer long, for some reason carved in the surface of Mars, and according to Richard Hoagland, located quite near a city.
		It's my understanding from several good sources that yes, in fact, that city does exist.
		It's not occupied now, but there was obviously an intelligent race on Mars far in advance to us at one time.
		But anyway, the bottom line was this Mars Observer was going to give us some very good pictures, and Michael Malin was in charge of the private company selected by NASA to oversee these pictures and to categorize them and all that.
		Michael Malin said in the first six months that he was not going to release any pictures, that after that he would release a selected dozen pictures, and that after that all the pictures would go into computer and would not be available for the public to the public and no hard copies would be made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can they dare do that, John, or even suggest they're going to do that when it is taxpayer money that puts it up there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How can they do that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And so Congress started under pressure from several groups and a lot of people started saying, now wait a minute, we paid for this.
		We want to see more than a dozen pictures of Mars.
		And it got to be such a problem for NASA, they effectually, you know, in effect said, well, you know, okay, then BS.
		You're not going to see anything.
		And they picked a point where they were going to pressurize the fuel tanks for the insertion around Mars and had everything go dead after that.
		So when people would say, oh, yes, they pressurized the fuel tanks.
		Well, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that they pressurized the fuel tanks and something happened and it blew up.
		And so basically everybody's forgot about it.
		Pictures are coming down great, beautiful, high-resolution pictures of Mars.
		And the public is none the wiser.
		They buy it.
		They believe in NASA.
		They believe in their government.
		They don't believe their government would be above this kind of subterfuge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, there was a day when I was one of those people, and it wasn't very long ago.
		And I have been disappointed again and again with the FBI, with BATF.
		And so my cynical quotient, as I like to call it, has risen and risen and risen to the point where I just, I almost, John, I almost don't believe anything they say anymore.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a good friend that we all know, I won't mention his name, who's been very skeptical of some of my claims, like when the Humble blew up, this guy said, well, you know, those accidents do happen.
		And then when we lost the Titan IVs, well, these things do happen.
		We lost another KH-11.
		Well, you know, there are accidents.
		And I was back in the East Coast doing something.
		And I called in, and I said, hey, what's going on?
		He says, can you listen to CNN?
		And I said, no, why?
		He says, about the Mars Observer blowing up?
		I said, oh, yeah, it's just another one of those coincidences.
		He says, no, it's a conspiracy.
		And I said, now, wait a minute.
		Are you actually falling off the fence now?
		And he says, yes, I've fallen off the fence and I can't get up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're falling off the fence and I can't get up.
		I guess I feel a little bit the same way, John.
		I really did trust in our government for the most part not very long ago, as a matter of fact.
		And it's been a long series of disappointments.
		And I guess I'm a bit off the fence myself.
		And a lot of things about the failure of the Mars mission, for me, don't add up.
		They made noise first about the possibility of it blowing up, then they discounted that.
		Latest theory is we had a bad batch of transistors.
		Now, they claim this accounted also for the weather satellite, by the way, lost on the same day and one earlier mission.
		That doesn't add up.
		It just doesn't add up, John.
		If they had lost a previous craft because of one of these transistors, they'd have tested the hell out of them, run them up to 200 or 300 times the rated value, been very sure.
		In other words, it was a problem point to look at.
		And then on top of all that, there's a redundant system.
		So none of this really quite adds up, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but they got away with the Hubble telescope.
		They weren't sure whether the public was going to go for that.
		But when they got away with that, they figured, well, we could probably get away with some more.
		And basically, anything that's up there that is going to give information, they just say, well, it doesn't work.
		And essentially, the public buys it because there's nothing they can do about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, space is not a precise science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And accidents will happen covers a lot of ground.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And the way that they do it is most of that information, or all that information, is downlinked to an area near Fresno, and it goes through four or five different stations before it ever gets to JPL or Houston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your claim is they're receiving nice, high-resolution pictures of Mars right this minute.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No question about it.
		But the people at JPL and Houston honestly believe that they're not getting information because they are not part of the subterfuge.
		And they cannot be part of the subterfuge so that they can give completely honest information as far as they know.
		The guys that you see on TV, they don't know what's going on.
		And the reason is, is because they have to give totally believable stories to the public.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, John, hold that thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be right back with John Lear right after this.
unidentified		This is an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell from The Kingdom of Nigh.
unidentified		And now back to the best of Art Bell.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		17,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		17,000 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In 17,000 hours, one would think if they're up there, you would have been one of the guys who would have seen one of them.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you about flying.
		You're not sitting there looking out the window.
		You're looking at your instruments.
		Particularly when you're flying jet aircraft.
		Now at night, when it's more likely you're going to see something, you can't see outside because you've got the glow of the instruments inside, and you have to put your face up to get rid of all the cockpit reflections to do it.
		And it's just, it's something that doesn't happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then, unless it was close and bright, you probably wouldn't see it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, you really wouldn't.
		And the only time that I ever saw anything, and it's still interesting, these days, when I think about this incident, it never occurred to me.
		I was in a Learjet, it was in the afternoon, I was descending from over Palm Springs, I was on a flight from Wichita to Los Angeles.
		I was descending through about 18,000, no, I see, how high would I have been?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, John, John, John, John.
		I've never heard this story.
		So hold this story.
		We're now at the top of the hour.
		When we come back, we'll tell the story.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that is one I haven't heard.
		Apparently, John has seen something as he thinks back over it.
		We'll get to that right after the news at the top of the hour.
		Cheerio, everybody.
		Friday night turning into Saturday morning.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Here's John Lear.
		John, good morning again.
		Hi, Eric.
		John, if you would please, again, because we have a lot of new listeners, give us the basic medium-length Bob Lazar Story 1A.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the summer of 1988, I had given a few lectures at the Clark County Spring Mountain Library, and I got a call from a real estate appraiser asking for copies of my tapes and stuff I had written.
		And I had mentioned that I was out of it, that I'd taken a lot of abuse over this.
		And he said, well, if you ever get a, you know, if you ever decide to make copies of stuff, give me a call.
		I'm an appraiser, and at that time, I needed appraisal for my house.
		So we struck a deal where, you know, I'd give him the tapes for the appraisal.
		Well, he came up with a friend of his who he introduced as a scientist, Bob Lazar, who formerly worked for Los Alamos National Laboratories.
		And we got to talking, and this scientist thought that both me and the appraiser were nuts because we believed in flying saucers.
		And he said there was no possible way that this could be true because he had worked at Los Alamos on some very, very highly classified projects and that if such a thing was going on, that he would have known or heard about it.
		Well, over the past, or over the next three or four months, we got together and we gave this guy, the scientist, enough information that made him question whether or not it might be true.
		And enough information was given to him that he decided to find out whether it was true or not.
		And because of his high education status, he had two master's degrees, one in electrical engineering from Caltech and one in nuclear physics from MIT.
		And because of his personal friendship with Dr. Teller, who incidentally runs this program, he was the father of the H-BOM.
		He runs this saucer back engineering program.
		He was able to get up to the test site.
		He was hired as a senior physicist to replace another one who had been killed in an accident up there.
		And he saw for himself that in fact it was true.
		And what he saw was at a location that's just south of Area 51, Groom Lake, where a lot of the terrestrial secret projects go on, such as the F-117A and the F-19 and Aurora and those kind of projects,
		that the Navy does have a secret facility there that does, at least at that time, which was December of 1988 through March of 1989, nine extraterrestrial craft, of which he was allowed access to one of them, inside the middle section and the lower section.
		The middle section containing the seats and the anti-matter reactor, which powers the craft, and the lower section, which contained the gravity amplifiers.
		His job, which he selected out of a number of jobs that they offered him, he was only allowed to pick one, was the back engineering of the propulsion system.
		He came up to my house.
		Back engineering is taking a piece of equipment that's very far advanced and trying to figure out how it works.
		And it would be like if an SR-71, which is one of our highly formally classified spy planes, landed at a World War I airbase, what would they do with it?
		They'd try and figure out how it worked.
		And this is exactly what we tried to do with these extraterrestrial craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which, John, would be very much like giving somebody in 1910 a new Sony television.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right, and trying to figure out how it worked, what it did, and that kind of thing.
		Anyway, that was Bob's job.
		And during that time, he'd come up and tell a couple of his very close friends what was going on, what he saw that day, and what he was doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I have heard Bob Lazar, if we're lucky, he may call this morning.
		Any late word on that, John?
		Do you know if he's...
		Well, maybe sometime during the night he'll wake up and call us.
		At any rate, he's been on here before and has told us exactly what he did.
		The next interesting aspect of the story, when people like yourself and others set out to verify Bob's story, a number of rather interesting things occurred, didn't they?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, when people are brought into a very secret program like that, the first thing the government wants to do is protect themselves that if, should these people ever want to talk and go public with this information.
		They want to be sure that this person will not be credible.
		In other words, the first thing they do is wipe out all the records, wipe out their schooling, which they did with Bob.
		There's no trace that he ever went to MIT, no trace that he went to Caltech.
		But in their ingenious way of spreading disinformation, they left his attendance record at Northridge College, which would seem that, yes, he did take a couple of electrical engineering courses, but certainly not what he claimed to be.
		So those that are investigating said, yeah, yeah, he seems to be a very bright guy, but certainly not exactly what he claims to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, is there not also, I think I saw last night on UFL report, Bob Lazar's name appears, does it not, John, on a telephone list for Los Alamos?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it does.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And the detractors say, yeah, but he was just a cook there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A cook?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The bottom line is the guys that say, well, you know, you're just taking it on what Bob Lazar told you, and you have really no proof of it in that.
		And I say, yeah, except for March 21st, Bob, I was over at his house, and he said, hey, they're going to fly one of the extraterrestrial craft tomorrow night.
		Do you want to go see it?
		And I said, sure.
		So how do we do that?
		And he said, well, I know a place where we can drive, still be on legal land, BLM land, and we can watch it come out of Groom Lake.
		And so me and Bob and Gene drove up there in my motorhome, and we pulled into a place.
		I said, you know, when do they fly?
		And he said, just at sunset.
		And so we drove out there just at sunset, pulled up to park.
		I had a very powerful Celestron 8 telescope, which I was unloading from the motorhome.
		And sure enough, just after sunset, this thing comes up and starts flying around.
		And we all thought I had it right in the Celestron 8.
		There was no question that it was a disc.
		I saw it when it was descending back into Groomlike.
		It was orange in color.
		It was radiating something.
		I don't know what.
		I saw it for maybe 15 or 20 seconds.
		There was no doubt in my mind what it was.
		So for those detractors who say, well, you've just taken Bob's word, yes, I was.
		But he told me exactly when that thing would fly the day before.
		And that has to account for something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they're still flying those up there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I think two years ago they moved everything north.
		There's a secret strip on the border of Idaho and northern Nevada.
		They moved it out of there because there were just too many people watching what was going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they were having bus tours up there for a while.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and they've relocated just on the border up near Jackpot and relocated many of the personnel up there in Twin Falls, and they drive down to the area to do their work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, again, Linda Howe is every Sunday on my Sunday show, Area 2000.
		One of the things that she just recently did was went to England where they've been having a rash of two things.
		One, crop circles, and two, cattle mutilations.
		And the more I look into this cattle mutilation thing, the more I want to understand about it.
		These are surgical cuts, John.
		They have evidence that these kinds of cuts were made before we even had the sort of technology that it would take to do them.
		And they're inevitably incredibly clean sites where nothing is left behind.
		There's no evidence of any human presence.
		And yet these animals are missing portions of their anatomy that have been cleanly cut with no further trace, just a high-heat instrument of some type.
		What is going on?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		Certainly the cattle mutilations have been going on.
		The public has been aware of them since the late 60s.
		They're going on all over the place.
		It's not just cattle.
		For instance, in Nevada, about a year or two ago, we had, I think, hundreds of horses that were mutilated in northern Nevada, and the area was cordoned off by the military.
		Nobody was allowed to go in there.
		The story came out that they had been shot by a hunter.
		But in fact, they tried to prosecute two or three people and was thrown out for lack of evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember the story.
		I remember the story.
		And at the time, you're exactly right.
		It was some crazy person supposedly just shooting horses.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		But what was ridiculous was a reporter with the Reno Gazette wrote a story backing up the government contention that it was rifle shots that killed him.
		He never visited the site.
		He was never out there.
		He never got closer than 100 miles to the site.
		And yet he won a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting, if you can imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I recall some report of that as well.
unidentified		So, wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's got to be any idea what motivation there would be to be taking parts of animals?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		None at all.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was just pure speculation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it your view, then, that it is being done by the aliens?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think there's any question about that.
		Certainly we do have the technology to do those kind of cuts, but not with the precision that they are done, and certainly not in the field.
		We would certainly need huge power generating equipment to do that.
		And the people that have witnessed those things happen say that just a light comes down and then goes back almost immediately, and they go over there, and there's these very specific cuts all over the body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not something you would expect, they say, devil worshipers, certainly they wouldn't do precise cuts or have any reason or motive to.
		And I can't imagine the other suggested source of all this.
		Somebody called me and said, oh, it's the government.
		Our government doesn't have need to go out and steal farmers' cattle.
		If they want cattle, I'm sure they've got plenty of their own.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, and certainly they wouldn't leave the mutilations around to invite speculation.
		They do things more covertly than that.
		Kind of an interesting story, when I first met Linda Howe in 1987 at a conference for UFO researchers in Creststone, Colorado, I drove with her down to Roswell.
		And on our way, we came down through Vaughan and Corona, where the first saucer crashed in 1947.
		And we were driving across that dirt road that goes from Corona over to the road that comes up from Roswell.
		I think it's 285.
		And it's this long dirt road, must be 40 or 50 miles long, and just bouncing along there.
		And we come along, and right next to the road, we see a dead cow.
		And I'm thinking, well, now this is really something.
		Here I am with the foremost investigator of cattle mutilations.
		And here we see a dead cow.
		So we got out and we looked at it and there was no classic mutilation cuts.
		There was a couple of holes, but nothing classic, like no eyes removed or anything.
		And I was kind of looking around, and then about 20 feet away, I saw another one.
		And I went over to that one, and then I got over to that one, and I looked about 40 feet away, and there's another one.
		And I, geez, I wonder what's going on.
		So I got up into the bed of the truck to look around, and to make a long story short, there were 35 dead cows right in the middle of this, you know, this little area in the middle of nowhere.
		So we got in the truck, and we drove to find the closest rancher, and we went down this road for maybe half an hour, found the closest ranch, and asked the rancher what the deal was.
		And he said, oh, yeah, he said that he gave us some name of a disease, and I forget what it was.
		He said, yeah, they died of this disease.
		So we went on our way, and Linda contacted a veterinary friend of hers and said, no, that's not possible.
		If that disease, if those cows had died from that disease, there would have been a quarantine within 100 miles of there.
		He said, man, I haven't heard of that.
		So we never did find out what the story was or whoever removed the cattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that's some story, though.
		I interviewed a couple of weeks ago Bud Hopkins.
		And Bud, of course, looks into these abduction cases very closely.
		And he said for a lot of years he was very fascinated with the UFO phenomenon.
		But as far as he was concerned, that's old news.
		In other words, he has simply come to the point where he's absolutely convinced, yes, we're being visited, and the only remaining area of interest is not whether to try to prove the sauces were out there, but figure out why these aliens are interested in human beings and why they're taking them.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you something about Bud Hopkins.
		When I first read Missing Time, which was his first book about this, I was really intrigued.
		Somewhere, something inside me told me this stuff is true.
		And at the time, I worked for this major charter company that I eventually got fired from.
		And I was flying flights from Las Vegas to Cleveland.
		And about that time, the book Communion by Whitley Strieber came out.
		And I remember going down to Walden Books, picking up that book, and taking it on the flight with me.
		And when I got to Cleveland, I started reading this thing.
		And I'm telling you, Art, the goosebumps started rising.
		For some reason, I knew that this stuff was true, and I couldn't turn the light out that night.
		And I got so intrigued over this stuff that I had to meet Bud Hopkins.
		So at that time, I was based in New York.
		I called him, he's in the phone book, and set up a meeting.
		I went down to Manhattan, where he lives, and spent maybe four or five hours with him.
		He shared some tapes of some of the abductees with me.
		And I'm telling you, it was frightening.
		We stopped about halfway through.
		I said, bud, how do you live with this?
		And he said, well, he said, you just get used to it.
		And I'm telling you, some of those abductee stories were absolutely horrifying.
		And that's what really got my interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		Then the same question applies that did to the cattle mutilations.
		John, any idea?
		What is your best guess as to why they are taking people, why they are interested in us?
		What is it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, the best guess would be based on what Bob Lazar read at the test site is that mankind is an experiment.
		People look to the sky and say, who are we?
		What are we?
		And people will say, well, no use to wonder, let's just get on with life and enjoy what we have.
		In fact, probably what we are is just an experiment.
		According to the documents that Bob read, the experiment has been going on for several hundred thousand years.
		They've made 65 separate corrections to a being that they made from whatever was on Earth at that time, mated or genetically engineered from something else they had to make us what we are today and what they refer to as containers.
		Now, what we contain wasn't specified.
		You could say it's blood enzymes, hormones, that kind of thing.
		But also there's fairly good evidence that the experiment involves the soul.
		And that they can experiment with the soul.
		They can remove it.
		They can put it in.
		They can save it, whatever they want.
		And that's my best guess.
		Well, those are the soul.
		But to what end the experiment is, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		These are the kinds of things that start to get my palms sweaty and remind me to warn the audience again, if they get upset, turn it off.
		You know, just go away.
		Last night on UFO report, and I really found that program enlightening, John.
		And I've never seen this before.
		At one point, they showed on camera quite a clear shot of an implant that was removed from a man's body.
		You saw that, didn't you?
		What was that, John?
		It was, I forget what they said that it was made of, trace metals, I remember that.
		And the main makeup was what?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Silica.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Fan.
unidentified		Silica.
unidentified		Silica.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was kind of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you make of that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, who knows?
		Maybe it's tracking equipment, very sophisticated tracking equipment.
		Maybe it's something that was infinitely more complex, but once it's taken out and viewed, it dissolves into silica.
		I certainly don't know.
		There have been implants that have been taken out of the brain or fallen out of the nose, other implants that look a little bit different.
		They're about the size of the BB.
		They're between 2 and 3 millimeters in diameter, and they have little wires sticking out from them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they actually can be sneezed out of the nose, can't they?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Apparently that's happened on several occasions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to admit something to you, John.
		I have, since I started doing the Area 2000 show, I've been interviewing some of the biggest people in this field without question.
		And as I've interviewed you over the years, an awful lot of what they have had to say sets off big-time alarm bells in my head.
		You know, a lot of what you said originally, John, I too thought you were maybe a little cracked.
		But as I've talked to these big people, John, it's echo after echo after echo of things that you've told me over the years.
		And it's all beginning to kind of come together, and it's a very discomforting feeling for me because I'm beginning to sort of lean toward the side of, uh-oh, you know, maybe all this is true.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Very well could be.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out some of this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the evidence does mount up.
		There's no question about it.
		And you've been out first with an awful lot of it.
		So much so that a lot of what I hear on this weekly show now are these are things, John, that you told me literally years ago.
		And years ago, they sounded bizarre, strange, hard to believe, and all of that.
		Today, they're beginning to seem very real to me.
		John, we're headed to the bottom of the hour for our break here.
		We'll come back in just a moment.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM from Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is John Lear, and we will get to the telephone shortly.
unidentified		Stay right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, John Lear.
		John, good morning.
		Hi, Ari.
		Just before I take my first call, another kind of sensitive area, John.
		For years, our media has depicted aliens as little fuzzy guys, for the most part, friendly guys, we've got to call home kind of guys, friend to children, all that sort of thing.
		You were the first one I know of over the years that said it ain't so necessarily.
		What would you say about that now?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, the only thing I can tell you about that is I have some really good contacts, not many, but very good contacts within the test site who are involved in this program.
		And I can tell you that none of them have anything positive to say about the extraterrestrial question.
		There's none of them.
		They talk about it in terms of black and ugly, in terms of dark and heavy, but nothing positive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you were to advise the average citizen, boom, boom, boom, boom, craft lands, door opens, whatever it is comes out, would you, A, go up and shake hands and say, as a member of the human race, welcome to Earth, or would you run like hell?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, my original advice was run like hell, but like Whitley Strieber said when he saw what I wrote, he said, where?
unidentified		Run away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Run where, exactly right.
		John, let's take a couple of calls, intersperse all this with some telephone calls.
		Here we go.
		Good morning on our east of the Rockies line.
		You're on the air.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Edmonton, Alberta, CJCA country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Edmonton, Alberta.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay, I've been very interested in this for many years because the performance capability of some of these things seems to have been captured on film and reported by very credible eyewitnesses.
		It defies almost any explanation to apply terms like anti-gravity or anti-matter conversion to these things because we know about those things.
		How these things move, we don't know.
		But the question I would have is, are there any actual government dealings with these aliens?
		And if so, why would they need to send a billion dollars to Mars since they could just maybe have our E.T. friends send us photographs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a legitimate question.
		Thank you.
		And John, what about it?
		In other words, if we have a close relationship with these people and some of their technology, what do we need with a billion dollars on the way to Mars?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		In fact, we do have a close relationship, ongoing dealings with the extraterrestrials.
		The reason for Apollo, Gemini, Mercury, the Shuttle, the Space Lab, Mars Observer, Viking, and all those are essentially for the public to let them think that, yes, we are interested in this stuff.
		No, we haven't found out anything, something for the public to focus on other than what's really going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		John, do you think the extraterrestrials could be using the human DNA structure or reproductive system to manifest themselves on the face of the earth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		To manifest themselves when?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the face of the earth.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I don't really understand that question.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Certainly they are using the DNA for something, but I don't know what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has been suggested, again, referring to the Fox program last night.
		I forget who it was who said it.
		It was suggested that their own DNA structure is weak and weakening, and that somehow they need something from us in our DNA or they need to refresh their own.
		I didn't quite get it, John, but something along those lines.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That was Linda Howell, and that's been a theory that has been floating around ever since I've been in.
		And the fact is, or one of the things that we think is going on or possibly going on, is that there is a race of extraterrestrials that are on the backside of a bell-shaped evolutionary curve.
		In other words, we think that evolution should always get better and better, but there's a point where it starts getting worse and worse.
		And there's certain things that they can't do and will never be able to do.
		So the theory is that they came to Earth to crossbreed with us so that they can get themselves on the front side of this bell-shaped evolutionary curve to get their race, so to speak, jump-started again.
		And the reasons for why they think this is because they're crossbreeding with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of American women.
		They'll be pregnant.
		They think they'll be pregnant for the first trimester, and then all of a sudden the fetus will be gone, and they don't know where it went.
		They have definitely confirmed as being pregnant, but the fetus is gone.
		And then some of them will be under regressive hypnosis and remember being in a craft and seeing what they are told is their child.
		And they'll see a child that looks part human, but also looks part alien.
		So that's where that theory comes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, I've talked to a number of people in the past weeks, John, that are confirming that as well, that a lot of fetuses simply disappear.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I've had some friends, close friends that have talked about this stuff, come up and say, you know, so-and-so was pregnant, and then last week we were in the apartment, and for some reason we had this very strange experience.
		The air conditioner was very cold, and we heard something, but we didn't know what it was.
		We went back to sleep.
		And then on the next visit with the doctor, the fetus is gone.
		There was no miscarriage, no discharge, nothing.
		It's just gone, period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air with John Lear in Las Vegas.
		Good morning.
unidentified		I'm from KVI, Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle, yes, sir.
unidentified		I was wondering, why haven't we over the years heard, so to speak, lifelong or credible politicians come out with a lot of this information?
unidentified		And why do you think the government's allowing you to?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are, that last one is particularly a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why haven't they shut you up yet, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, because they don't mess with people who are only dealing with hearsay information.
		The only people they are quite harsh with are the people who've had a clearance to know this stuff and then go out and talk.
		For instance, when Lazar came out, they manufactured felony pandering charges against him and made it stick.
		It was a BS deal, and he actually did get charged and had to plead guilty to him and just finished three years of probation.
		But that's what they do.
		I talked to several people at the test site about this, and he said, yeah, that's the way they work.
		You talk about this, and you're going to pay for it.
		But as far as people like myself, they're dealing with, I'm dealing with secondhand information, and if they did anything to me, it would just give credibility to the subject.
		So the best thing is to say nothing.
		As far as why politicians don't come out, they have nothing to gain.
		Politicians only do something if they have something to gain, and they certainly would have nothing to gain by promoting the extraterrestrial contact view or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about that, Color?
unidentified		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Good morning.
		Line one, you're on the air in Las Vegas with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, two quick questions.
		The first thing, arguments against these visitors would be that we have a press that uncovered Watergate, uncovered a lot of things that were done undercover.
		And I'd like to know that given all the years that this has been going on, why hasn't the press been able to uncover it?
		That's A. And B, how is it possible that given the, even if these craft were able to fly at the speed of light, given the vast amount of space between the stars and the hundreds of years that it would take to get to the planet Earth, how would they know, A, that man exists on this particular planet when man is basically new to this planet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Let's take them one at a time.
		The question about the press was first, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, the United States press is more ignorant than the average individual.
		The gentleman caller cites Watergate.
		If he knew anything about Watergate, as a matter of fact, I use this example for people who say, well, why didn't the press, you know, they uncovered Watergate?
		And I say, really?
		What do you think they uncovered?
		And they said, well, there was these two reporters for the Washington Post that did it.
		And I said, who were the reporters?
		And they say, well, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.
		And I say, well, do you know what their backgrounds were?
		Well, they were just a couple of college kids.
		And I say, would you be surprised if I told you that Bob Woodward spent six years in naval intelligence working directly for Alexander Haig?
		Well, I didn't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I'd have to say, John.
		I didn't know that.
		You're just telling me that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Alexander Haig was deep throat, and he's the one that torpedoed Nixon.
		And although Nixon did have some shortcomings, you know, he was an effective fanbag on that thing because he wouldn't go along whatever it was.
		And I don't know what it was.
		But certainly that was nothing that the press uncovered.
		They were fed that information, and they were fed it by Haig to Woodward, who worked for Naval Intelligence.
		So the press has literally uncovered nothing.
		We could take example of the newspapers we have locally, the Las Vegas Sun and the Review Journal.
		We have some of the most ignorant reporters Working for them, who have absolutely uncovered nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's true.
		I think that a lot of press in this country has become very lazy.
		Very lazy indeed.
		And it depends on wire service reports.
		The days of serious investigative reporting really are pretty well behind us.
		The second question he had, John, is, and it's a legitimate one that a lot of people would want answered.
		We think we're limited by the speed of light, and we can't even really approach that right now, as far as I know.
		How in the world would these aliens travel the distances required to get here?
		How would they do it, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, if you're traveling in a linear direction, you are limited by the speed of light.
		But the way they travel enables them to travel hundreds of thousands of times faster than the speed of light.
		And the way they do it is based on the fact of the instantaneous propagation of gravity.
		Science, mainstream science, doesn't know it yet, but gravity is instantaneous.
		Space is a fabric.
		You can pull it this way and that.
		It's actually a substance, substance-like fabric.
		And you can pull it and stretch it in different ways.
		If you wanted to go, say, 22 light years from here, and you had a gravity source that could generate enough gravity, you could actually pull or retract a portion of space from 22 light years away, because it is instantaneous, and envelop your craft and then turn off the gravity generator and be 22 light years away in a matter of minutes or hours.
		And that's how they travel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is the folding.
		Is that a good analogy, the folding of space?
		And then you travel.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Folding, yes, that could be a good analogy.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		but actually you attract or pull space towards you, envelop your craft, and then you unite or coalesce with the space that's 22 light years away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then as I understand the time thing, that would mean that you have only aged the real amount of time that it took you to make this hop, but to those on the other end of the hop, they would have...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would have aged been long dead, I suppose.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, this is instantaneous travel.
		And instantaneous, I mean within hours.
		What you're talking about is traveling in a linear direction.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then in that case, you would have to be in some sort of subconscious...
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So the guy goes out into space, and he's only gone 30 years, and people back on Earth...
john lear ▲ ● ▼		The way that they do it now, yes.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Or the way that the extraterrestrials do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		Wildcard Line 3, you're on the air in Las Vegas with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		I thought that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		How far behind are we here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're about seven seconds behind, enough to confuse you terribly if you listen to it, so turn it off.
unidentified		I thought that.
unidentified		I'm calling from Phoenix, KTAR.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		The thing I want to say is I don't think that our government has close relations with aliens at all.
		I mean, if there was an alien spacecraft that actually approached Earth, they would see what a misery-loving world we are.
		They would just turn around and head back to wherever they came from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, sir, that implies that they're interested one way or the other in what kind of misery we're going through.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they might be interested in it, but I don't think they're going to make any kind of contact with us in our lifetime purposely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would ask you this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you care very much what kind of a life a cow has, or do you just eat hamburgers?
unidentified		No, I just eat cows.
unidentified		I cut them into bite-sized pieces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you don't really care what their life is like, whether they get fed on time, whether they feel miserable or anything else, right?
unidentified		Oh, no, I definitely.
unidentified		I don't eat meat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just a thought, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I understand that, but I really don't think that if there was alien life forms out there, they're even going to want to do anything with us right now, because I don't think that this planet is even ready for something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is a good question.
		Thank you.
		John, we've talked of this before, and I found your answer surprising, perhaps even almost shocking.
		I asked you whether we are in the process of being prepared for contact, and I think you've said that, yes, that may be the case.
		But you said, and now since then, others have also said, John, that if it's so, maybe we should not be told.
		We are not yet ready.
		Still believe that, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I think the caller is a prime example of that.
		He's not ready to listen to anything like that.
		And you must understand what the government is faced with.
		People say, well, why don't they tell us?
		Well, there's probably 1% of the population that would think it's really neat and understand what's going on, but 99% aren't interested and don't want to hear what's going on.
		So therein is the rub.
		You know, do we tell them or do we not tell them?
		And five years ago, I said, well, you know, it's our right to know.
		But starting about two years ago, I'm kind of on the government side.
		I don't believe people should be told because they have no reason to be told.
		There's nothing that they can do with the information.
		There's nothing that would improve their lives.
		There's certainly nothing they can contribute to the problem if indeed there is a problem.
		So the basic thing is I thought, you know, the government was getting ready to tell us, and I don't think they had ever any intention of telling us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's a pretty sensitive one, John.
		I know that you've worked for the CIA, or at least worked in operations that the CIA had a hand in.
		Is that fair?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I worked for different companies that had contracts with the CIA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Once that kind of information is known, over the years, John, because of your prominence in this field, there have been a lot of people who have said, not a lot, some have said that you are Part of the disinformation campaign, and you still, now, right now, are working for the CIA.
		And so, John, prove to me you're not.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, the fact is, I could be.
		But if I was, it would be to disinform the public.
		If it were disinforming them, my question is, what could be worse than what I'm saying now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good point.
		That's a good point.
		Or one might suggest that you make aspects of the story sometimes so outlandish that it may psychologically sort of have a reverse effect and people reject it because it gets so outlandish, and that in itself is a disinformation.
		I realize I can sit here and make any case at all, but you follow me, don't you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I'm not working for him, but yes, you do have good points.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air in Las Vegas with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		Good morning, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		I had this little ditty that kind of explains my cynicism towards government, not just ours.
		Them that gives them takes them.
		Them that makes them breaks them.
		And them that rules them, fools them.
		And I think this century that's exactly what our government certainly has turned into, the named and the unnamed rulers of our country that you've been talking about through what President Eisenhower did.
		My special interest is in time, time travel.
		And the speed of light, of course, is 186,000 miles a second.
		And I listened very carefully to what you said about the folding and bending, which I am not schooled.
		I'm not a physicist or whatsoever.
		I'm just interested.
		I was born in 1938, and I've been waiting all my life since I was a very small child.
		Don't ask me why, I don't know.
		For them, don't get me.
		I don't know how else to put it.
		Okay.
		No, I've never had any type of UFO experience or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's ask John about time.
		John, it's one of my favorite subjects too, maybe my favorite of all.
		I would like to know, as well as would everybody else, we all know that you and Bob Lazar are building a time machine, right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, that's absolutely false.
		I don't know how that rumor got started.
		And I think it may have been on your show.
		I alluded to the fact that it could be built.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, right.
		And then I think we had Bob Lazar on at the time, and he denied it.
		And I said, well, Bob, if you were building a time machine, would you tell us now?
		He said, no.
		And that's about all it takes for a rumor of that sort.
		You still believe, John, a time machine could be built?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but you have to have a tremendous source of power, of energy, something that we certainly don't have in present day.
		It's not that you can go down to Radio Shack or Sandy's Electronics and buy the kind of power that's necessary to build a time machine.
		I mean, it takes huge, inconceivable amounts of power.
		And we could get probably the rest of it together, but we don't have that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had Al Bielick on the program, and you'll recall he was involved with the Philadelphia experiment, or claims that he was.
		And that was the military, and they did have a huge amount of power.
		Does that Philadelphia experiment and what's been written about it seem like it could have been to you, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you something interesting about Al.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I've been very skeptical of his story, but I talked to some people who were just recently out at Block Island in the area where Al said a lot of this occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you what.
		John, we're at the top of the hour.
		Hold that on Al Belick because it's a good sort of cliffhanger, and we'll come back after the news and dive into it.
		John Lear is my guest.
		An interesting conclusion.
		To not rule out their existence, but state they are not a threat to national security doesn't make sense to me.
		If they exist, they certainly would be a potential threat.
unidentified		Yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, they got away with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Kansas City, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kansas City, Missouri, all right?
unidentified		Okay, what I'm going to say here has to do with the religion aspect, if that's okay with Mr. Lear.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Okay.
		Here's my opinion.
		This is just my opinion now, so this might not mean anything to you at all.
		But I am a Christian.
		And what I have gained from this is that this is my opinion, but UFOs have actually been built under the watchful eye of the Illuminati.
		Does that make any sense to you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've heard that before.
unidentified		What do you think about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Choose your words carefully.
unidentified		Huh?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
unidentified		For the reason to explain.
		Do you believe in the rapture?
		I don't mean to make this into a religious show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, please, please don't.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, John believes there is a connection between religion and UFOs.
unidentified		Can he please expound on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That you would not find agreeable and which he would rather not expound on, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, it's all the same to you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I do not want to expound on my religious views.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's kind of like when you say this, and I guess we had to cover it, John, but when you say this, it's like putting a box on the table that says, do not open this box, and then just leaving it there, and everybody who comes past will inevitably open the box.
		And so they want to open the box.
		I understand that.
		But perhaps some boxes are best left unopened.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
		I'm calling from the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area.
		Yes, sir.
		I can prove right now that what Mr. Lear is saying is the opposite of the truth because the U.S. government is not covering up information about the existence of extraterrestrial life.
		Government intelligence agencies have been spreading the rumor that aliens are among us to UFO researchers, and this has been documented by Jacques Folet in his book Revelations.
		For example, in 1983, the proven disinformation agent at Richard Doty at Kirtland Air Force Base invited Linda Howe to that Air Force Base and showed her these alleged secret documents claiming aliens among us.
		Then in 1985, Jacques Fillet and J. Allen Hyenek were invited to Norton Air Force Base by some generals there and told that aliens are among us.
		And I think it's all a lie, and I have a reason for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		Give that to us.
		You said you had proof, sir, so go ahead and lay it out.
unidentified		The proof is what I just told you, and if you just get Jacques Villais' book, Revelations, that proves that the government isn't hiding it.
		It's pushing it on UFO researchers.
		And the reason for this reverse psychology disinformation campaign was stated by Stanton Friedman when he said that a belief in alien life would cause people to lose their faith in the value of nation states and lead to the acceptance of world government, which is exactly what the power elite who control the government wants, since their multinational corporations have the most to gain from globalism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So there it is, John.
		He lays it out.
		It is something he's charging to lead us toward the one world government, that sort of thing.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly respect his opinion.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		And since I don't have any hardware, I'm certainly not going to be able to prove what I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, at one time, can you tell the story about element 115?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, element 115 is the power source for these extraterrestrial craft.
		We've been able to synthesize up to like 106.
		But there is an element on up the line that is 115.
		And by pumping protons into 115, it becomes 116, which immediately decays.
		And what the result of the decay is, is antimatter.
		And when antimatter is mixed with matter, it's 100% conversion of matter to energy, which is a very, very large explosion.
		And what they do is they control this explosion to create heat.
		And also out of this reaction, they pull off the gravity A wave without going into details, they use to propel themselves across the universe at speeds hundreds of times faster than the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At one time, and you tell as much of this story as you can, or tell me to go fly a kite, but you had your hands on some 115, didn't you?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Bob Lazar had his hands on some 115.
		We did some experiments which proved it was exactly what he said it was.
		And I believe it was the evening of the George Knapp.
		UFO is the best evidence.
		We kept very close watch on this stuff, but since we had it four or five months, we became a little careless and it was left out.
		And that night they broke into Bob's house and took it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you no longer have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that's about as close as you've come to hardware.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		No, you're not.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Randy from Leavenworth, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Randy.
unidentified		I'm calling to ask Mr. Lear about the three different kinds of aliens.
		I did a subscribe to a newsletter, and it talks about all the government research, and the different types of ships are different aliens from different sectors in the universe.
		And there's the reptilian form, the insectoid, and the human type.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there may be a lot more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, how many are there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, in opinion, and this is only my opinion, there's about 70 types that are visiting Earth at one time or another with various agendas.
		Some of them don't have anything to do with what's going on here.
		They're just coming down to take a look.
		But they're all different types.
		And some of them, if you had a chance to look at it, you would actually die of fright because they are so alien to what we are used to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's that, Color?
unidentified		That sounds good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks.
		You would die of fright.
		Are they able to appear to us in a form different than that which would cause us to die of fright?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Apparently, some of them can do that, but according to some of the abduction stories, they hide themselves.
		You can't get a look.
		You can see their shape, but you can't see their face.
		And that's prevalent if you've read John Mack's book.
		That's prevalent throughout all the abductions.
		They cannot see the face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had John Mack on the program about three weeks ago, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting guy, and I really enjoyed his book.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was more of the same, but it's interesting stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know about the incident in which some young lady apparently set him up?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I thought that was really disgraceful, but it's just media tactics.
		You know, I don't know what she gained by that.
		You know, it just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or what agenda or whose agenda she was serving by doing that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was just an unfortunate incident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I mean, here we've got a Harvard professor, lots of credibility, and he gets set up.
		I mean, that's just almost too much for even me.
		John, hang tight.
		We're bottom of the hour.
		We'll be back to you.
		John Lear is my guest.
		Pilot, pilot now, captain of an aircraft.
		We'll be back with more on UFOs.
unidentified		People like you to get in touch with people like, say, the Dalai Lama and talk to them about this kind of stuff and see what they think.
		Well, all right.
		People that are realized or that have studied mystical or metaphysical stuff that are, you know, that are in that genre.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		John, you don't seem inclined to really be pursuing this much more.
		In other words, my assessment of you psychologically is that you have reached some kind of inner conclusion.
		And stop me if I'm wrong, and you're kind of settled about it now.
		Is that right?
unidentified		Settled or fatalistic?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fatalistic.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I never in my wildest dreams, when I started getting into this, had any remotest hope of finding out as much as I did.
		And when I found out as much as I did, it was very interesting, and it was, in one way, extremely satisfying.
		But I didn't think that I'd find out much more than I did.
		So, you know, I continued on my life.
		And like I say, there's a lot of guys that just keep plugging along.
		I know.
		But I think I found out pretty much what's going on, and so I'm continuing my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And fatalistic is the right word.
		That's kind of ominous for a lot of us, of course.
		Laugh.
		All right, on the East of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Hayard.
unidentified		This is Kevin from KCMO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KCMO, Kansas City, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to ask John a question on the time travel, deal.
		I heard that you can only go so far forward in time and so far backward in time.
		Is that true?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I think you can go both ways as long as you want.
		And to the answer of the paradox, if you go back in time and kill your father, will you still be here?
		The answer is, yes, you will still be here because time is compartmentalized.
		Okay.
		You can go back and kill your father, but you'll still be here.
unidentified		Okay.
		That's all I wanted to know.
		I was curious about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Thank you very much.
		In other words, you will affect the local...
		Is that right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That sounds like a good analogy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all time is local.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You will affect the immediate sphere or time that you commit this act in, but somehow time will bend back in on itself and everything will self-correct and you'll still be there somehow.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the East of the Rockies line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was wondering, will we be able to get a tape of tonight's program?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Oklahoma City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oklahoma City.
		Yes, indeed, you will.
		And if you'll listen, I'll tell you how to do it, all right?
unidentified		Okay, I just wondered if you would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		I'd be glad to do it.
		Sure, if you want a tape of this program, the first two hours we spent on a very careful chronicling of UFO history, John's involvement in it, and all the rest of it, you can get a tape by calling right now, Area Code 503-664-7966.
		Let me give that again.
		Area code 503-664-7966.
		And on the east of the Rockies line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		Erie, Pennsylvania.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air?
unidentified		On the FLP.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
		First of all, love it.
		Outstanding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad you're enjoying it.
unidentified		Okay.
		For Mr. Lear, I have a couple questions.
		First of all, are you familiar with Guardian?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You are?
unidentified		Guardian is legitimate?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't know.
unidentified		Okay, you're a good guy.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I know he's a bachelor.
		I know that he's a good researcher.
		You know, I'm sure he's not baking all this.
		But, you know, other than that, yes, I am familiar with the case.
unidentified		Okay.
		Second of all, boy, I've been trying to get through all night.
		I'm kind of nervous now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, relax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just try to remember what you wanted to ask.
unidentified		I'm trying.
unidentified		Second of all, without getting very in-depth at all about religion, because I know that's a touchy subject, but do these civilizations, alleged civilization, do they purport to be religious the way we thought?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a reasonable question, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, do these beings themselves have a religious faith that we are aware of?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, in answer to your question, let me tell you what Whitley Stryber said about that when he was abducted, and he's absolutely, horrendously terrified, and he's screaming, and he's saying, oh, God, oh, God, help me, God, God, please help me.
		And the little grays are looking down, and very coolly they said, why do you call for your God?
		There's only us up here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That will certainly serve as an answer, no question about it.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Jim in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		St. Louis, yes.
unidentified		Mr. Lear, I want to thank you on behalf of everyone listening for coming on the show.
unidentified		Thoroughly entertaining.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
unidentified		You seem to be hitting everything right on.
		For people that call up, they've read a book or they're real religious.
		They obviously haven't been following some of the stuff covered on the show.
		The cover-up, the military involvement, politics, everything.
		You seem to be right on.
		I respect the fact that you don't want to go into the religion aspect because I've read a little bit, I think, of what you've outlined there in a couple of different books.
		But again, the astronauts, the whole thing of keeping quiet.
		People can't understand why the mill, why aren't they talking about this?
		And that this stuff really is happening.
		I'm getting announcements on our station here in KSD that say this is a warning.
		This is not the views of this station.
		It is shocking.
		It's very shocking.
		A lot of this is.
		Except my religious beliefs are simply I believe above all else, above anything else, that there is the God, God, the creator of all things.
		And why can these things that be happening, God takes care of other elements of nature in accordance with the plan?
		Why can this not be somewhat along an overall plan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the plan.
		In other words, yeah.
		Yeah.
		Okay.
		All right, sir.
		Hold on.
		Listen to the answer.
		Go ahead, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		What's the question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question was, really, he walked around at six ways from Sunday, but he's asking, why can't there be the God we all know, and not we all know, but many of us think is there, who's in control and who's just.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me tell you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not properly asking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, why do God and UFOs and the aliens have to be mutually exclusive?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		They don't, but let me tell you a story that Bob Lazar told me once.
		We're talking about the universe and the ramifications of it all, and he's telling me about the theory that the universe expands until it can't go any further, and then it starts contracting.
		And time reverses, and everything comes down to its original size, less than an atom size, and then starts spreading out the other direction, whereas things only exist that travel faster than speed of light.
		And so we came to the conclusion, now, whoever made that, that's God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whoever made that, that's God.
		Okay, well, I hope that serves as an answer to his question.
		You're on the air coast to coast A.M. with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Calling from Youngstown, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Youngstown, yes, sir.
unidentified		I have a copy of a videotape by Bob Lazar.
unidentified		I was wondering if Mr. Lear was familiar with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he sure is.
unidentified		And I was wondering if he could give us some comments about the other two areas of S4 that Mr. Lazar talks about, about the physics of time travel and the charged particle beams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've only got about a minute, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you do it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure whether areas he's talking about.
		Yes, that they had both of those things there.
		Once, you know, I told you the stories where the hangar door was open.
		He walked into the craft to do some work, and he was in there about two hours.
		And when he came out, it was exactly the same time as before he went in.
		And when he asked what the explanation was that, they said because the saucer's time shifted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We'll have to hold it there from Youngstown, Ohio.
		Thank you.
		John, we'll be right back to you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Relax for a few minutes.
		You're listening to Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network.
		If this kind of information disturbs you, and it does many, reach over and turn your radio off.
		For everybody else, there will be more.
unidentified		Music.
		People, not phony, baloney type people.
		And of course, I lost touch with them then, but I wonder if he's familiar.
		John, are you familiar with Gurdjieff's book, All in Everything?
		Where he talks about Karnik, the Gucci of Karnik, but I'm not catching the last name.
		With Gurjev.
		Man named Gurzev.
		He has groups that are working.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say the name slowly, Bob.
unidentified		Gurdjev, G-U-R-D-J-I-E-F-F, Georgius Ivanovich Gurdyv.
		And he wrote the book way back in the 40s called All in Everything.
		And as I said, then subsequently when I was with this couple in London, and I don't remember their name, but I remember going to several groups, and this was back in the 50s.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I vaguely remember that book, but I don't know enough about it to make any comment on it.
unidentified		Right.
		But he talked way back then about spaceships.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right, Bob.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		We appreciate it.
		I guess not enough knowledge to really be commenting about it.
		You're on the air coast to coast AM with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is Tim from KST in St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		How you doing?
		I want to know if you could tell me anything more about the alien picture, and could you tell Mr. Lear about that experience that you had?
		And could you possibly tell me the internet number and how I could get that off the internet when you finally do send that up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I will.
		Thank you.
		Yeah, he's right.
		John, I have a young man who has what he believes is an alien creature, the body of an alien creature, which is now dried.
		It's pretty good size.
		It's very hard to describe, John.
		I've got very good 35 millimeter photographs of it, and I've got a videotape of it as well.
		I'm getting them scanned and put up on the internet probably by the middle of next week.
		The thing looks, the closest I can come, John, is it almost looks bat-like, but it's not a bat.
		It's pretty good size.
		It's a couple of feet tall, two or three feet tall, and it is very, very weird.
		Now, without seeing it, it would be impossible for you to comment, but it supposedly came from Puerto Rico, where there's been quite a bit of UFO activity, hasn't there?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so I will show you that photograph when I get a chance, John, and then you'll be able to comment.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, interesting.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		It's just something I'm working on right now.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is John from Kansas City, Missouri.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, John.
unidentified		Well, basically, what I was calling about is just to throw out another theory here, as these things do happen, is essentially, you know, like, first off, I don't really buy bad sun alien creatures really buying, using people as food because the simple fact would be easier to kidnap a group of people to then breed them as cattle, would it not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Are we being bred as cattle?
unidentified		Who knows?
		Maybe we are.
		Well, anyways, some of the other things, like you said, like when we encountered them in Cambodia and the Special Forces had a firefight with them, It would be a very good place to collect human bodies to study the anatomy because you wouldn't have to worry about taking them and then probably bringing them back and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
unidentified		Yeah.
		And truthfully, why are they so interested in this place?
		I mean, truthfully, we're in the neck of the wood, so to speak, in our galaxy, and what is so interesting for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why us is the question, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Why what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why us?
		Why are they interested in us?
		I could almost answer that.
		I mean, when you look at the Earth, it's a hustle and bustle of activity and growth and beings and intelligence, and it's a contrast to everything around it, right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, my opinion is, is it's not that they came here looking down and say, oh, yeah, that's a neat place.
		Let's go down and visit.
		I think they created the whole thing, and that's their interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they have an intense interest in following their handiwork.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, their handiwork being the breeding of the human race over 200,000 years in which they made 65 separate corrections to make us what we are today, which they refer to as containers.
		You know, I doubt if the experiment is over.
		I think that, you know, it's continuing on.
		Each of these separate corrections, they have to, you know, when they bring in the new model, they have to recall the old model.
		And they do that with mass plagues, floods, gyroscopic precessions of the Earth, which I might mention, all this EPA and BLM and stuff about, you know, carefully burying our trash.
		You know, every 23,000 years, this Earth rotates on its axis and takes up a different rotation and essentially cleans everything out.
		So why are we so worried?
		We're about 1,000 years overdue for this rotation.
		So why are we worried about all this trash?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about a polar reverse?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just irritated because it used to take me seven minutes to drive to the dump, but now it takes three hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time for the big cleaning.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's all going to be done for us.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		We don't have to worry about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Calling from Bakersfield, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're holding this for East of the Rockies, sir, for about five more minutes.
		Thank you very much for the call, though.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Wonderful show of sunshine here.
		I think that was Betty and Barney Hill, wasn't it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, he said 1955.
unidentified		Oh, well, I didn't know when their book came out.
unidentified		Betty and Barney Hill.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It was after 63.
unidentified		Oh, I see.
		Okay, my mistake.
		But anyway, they did allude to the time travel or the time stand too, I believe, didn't they?
		I mean, they were in there for some time, and yet when they came out, it was lost to them.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they had that same experience.
unidentified		Yeah, wonderful show.
unidentified		Thanks for having us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thanks for making the call and good morning.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
		That was it, I guess, John.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, I'm calling from near Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Actually in east of the mountains, about 500 feet from the Manzano test range.
		Uh-huh.
		Sandia Bays.
		I had a sighting here about two years ago in Bay.
		Since then, I've talked to three of my neighbors who have had similar sightings, a retired school teacher and a real estate agent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not having some of that famous New Mexico towels hum right now, are you?
unidentified		No, I do hear strange noises once in a while, and they sound like a diesel truck in the distance or machinery clanging around, but some of it I think I'm hearing construction going on on the base.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Now, was your sightings within the Monzano weapons storage area, Coyote Canyon?
unidentified		Well, I was on the highway driving home, and this was a large orange-glowing sphere that went over my car, and it was heading due south into that area.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, there's been a lot of reports.
		As a matter of fact, when I first got into this, Paul Benowitz had just lived in the Four Hills section there, and he set up in 1980 a videotape which ran 24 hours a day.
		He'd change it every eight hours, and he got some spectacular photos of dome-shaped objects taking off from the Montana weapons storage area.
unidentified		Well, I sometimes wonder if they're saying that there's less action going on up in Nevada.
unidentified		Maybe some of it's moved here.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Either they or Holloman.
unidentified		I've also got two acquaintances.
		They don't know each other, but they have told me that they were involved.
		One worked for the contractor, and the other worked for somebody in the architectural design firm that built all these underground bunkers back in the early 80s out there.
		And they said that these bunkers were as big as football fields, solid concrete, they were huge, and of course nobody knew what they were being built for.
		Yeah, no runways.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I had a friend that went in one of those things, and he says that there was nothing in there, but he said it was absolutely enormous.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		But there was nothing in there at the time he went in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Caller, thanks.
unidentified		Can I ask one more question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, very quickly.
unidentified		Do you think that anything will come of this Roswell investigation?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yes, Representative Schiff, of course, is off and running on the investigation, as you know, John.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think anything will come of it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Zero?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, because it's a cover-up.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You're not going to let some congressman go in there and find out what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I suppose at the levels all this moves, a congressperson is not much.
		All right, John, I'd like you to hold on.
		We've got a break here at the bottom of the hour, so relax for a few minutes.
		We'll be back to you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is John Lear, pilot, airline captain, and believer in IFOs, identified flying objects.
		That's the nature of the discussion this morning.
		It may disturb you.
		If it does, turn it off.
		If you want a copy of the entire program, you can call beginning right now, area code 503-664-7966.
unidentified		They will ever know.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Which certainly can be done and very easily if you have the technology, but I'll have to disagree with you on time travel.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You can certainly go forward in time and you can come back.
unidentified		Well, I'm sure you can go forward, but I doubt very seriously you'll be able to come back.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, okay, well, we disagree on that.
unidentified		It's just on common sense, though.
unidentified		I mean, I don't understand how you think you can come back to a time that you can go forward unless you're talking about this gravitational thing where you hold off and you're just thinking you go forward in time and you're never leaving the time that you're letting your time stand still while you're gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Everett, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everett, all right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		John, when I get my time machine, I'll come and pick you up and take a ride.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think, John, in your life that you will do that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do not?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Why is that such a quick no?
		I mean, if you had a chance, an opportunity, with Bob Lazar and others and lots of funding, would you endeavor to do it?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I think, well, with lots of funding.
		No, there's very complex machinery.
		I don't think it can be done.
		I'm 52.
		I'm going to retire here at 60, and I hope to have, you know, maybe a couple of years of tending my lawn.
		But certainly there's nothing I want to go back and see or go forward.
		It's an interesting concept.
		It certainly can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning, Art Cliff in Glenville, Arizona, KFYI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I was wondering if John might have privileged information that might give us a clue to our future.
unidentified		Have we been told anything that might tell us where we're headed?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I will tell you this, that in my brief career as a ufologist, I've made several predictions, two or three of them, and they've all turned out false.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		So I may be a good researcher, but I'm a terrible prophet.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		All right, John.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much from Arizona and, of course, KFYI.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Oh, this is fantastic.
unidentified		John, I'm an old fighter pilot from Korea, and we used to fly the old F-86s.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, my favorite one, Dee's.
unidentified		E-Mile, okay.
unidentified		They were Pratt Whitney and we do the Rolls-Royce engine.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And the only time I ever got involved with your company was when I bought my own jet, and it was a Lear jet.
		Anyway, we had a flame out at about 35,000 feet one time coming over Kansas City.
		No, I think it was Cincinnati.
		And my pilot came back, and we get up there, and we said we had to break it down to 25,000 feet.
		And we kicked her up again, and she flew like a real trooper.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
unidentified		Interesting as hell, yeah.
unidentified		Anyway, the reason I wanted to call and get my, I'm calling from San Diego, the home of the tail hook maniacs.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		We're all a bunch of cowboys out here.
		But some of us are really curious about things.
		And you know about Thorne?
		Rip Thorne.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Which one is that?
unidentified		Well, he's a physicist, a cosmologist out here.
		And we were wondering about what the heck is going on.
		We built the, we were involved in the accelerator up there at Stanford.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
		And we took a whack at things.
		And, my God, I've got a million things to tell you.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're right in the middle of the action down there in San Diego because that's where the Navy has a lot of their operations.
		And I could tell you some real weird stories about stuff that goes on down there.
		But you are right in the center of operations.
		I doubt if you could ever penetrate it, but if you could, you'd see a lot of real interesting stuff.
unidentified		Well, here's what we got.
		We're looking at times 10 to the minus 33rd, and we're looking at, instead of black holes, we're looking at wormholes.
		And this is a concept that Thorne has been preaching for about 10 years, and of course, I think he's a wacko.
		And it's a viable concept.
		A wormhole.
		And you know that we've got a black hole in our vicinity.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Supposedly every galaxy has its own black hole.
		And as far as wormholes, I don't think that's how it works.
		But go ahead.
unidentified		Well, it has to do with the space-time continuum.
		And listen to Thorne.
		Of course, Thorne's an old buddy of mine.
		And at first, it's inconceivable.
		If you look at the space-time continuum, it is a viable concept.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that what he's trying to do is figure out how they can get from place to place without violating the speed of light.
		And because they don't have access to the real information of how it works, they invent stuff like wormholes.
		But the way it works is called the instantaneous propagation of gravity.
		Science doesn't know it yet, but gravity is instantaneous, and there's two forms of it, A and B. And basically, to travel hundreds of times faster than the speed of light, what you do is generate a very powerful beam of gravity and pull space towards you.
		Space is actually a fabric.
		It can be pulled this way and that.
		We think of it as a nothing.
		We think it is something that has just one hydrogen atom per square meter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, in a sense, then, you're not really traveling through the space to get from A to B. You are jumping across an area.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		You are pulling space towards you and coalescing or uniting with space that's maybe hundreds of light years away.
		But that's why they invent wormholes, because they know that it can be done.
		They're just trying to figure out a way that it can be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think I know the concept of a black hole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the difference between a black hole and a wormhole, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, a black hole is just a very intense, a collapsed star which is not letting any light.
		It is so dense that it doesn't let light go through it.
		Wormhole is a completely different thing.
		Wormhole is what they're speculating is how to get from point A to point B very fast without violating the principle of the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe it can be violated?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I don't mean by the method you just described, but I mean in actual speed travel no i don't think you can go faster than the speed of light in a linear direction you have to do it some other way all right on the uh toll-free line you're on the air with john leer good morning oh good morning all right good morning john you know listening to you today i'm susan from moscow mills and um moscow mills where i don't know missouri all right kiss yes um you know in the fear that some people have of what john
unidentified		talking about, they must understand that whatever experience that we have as humans or humanoids or whatever, it's a very good experience.
		And obviously, whoever and whatever has created us and whatever use that we have for them, we have use for ourselves, too.
		And there's such, I mean, there's so much love and joy in life, opposed to the diversity, which there's plenty of that, too.
		But the mind that was given to us and the spirituality that we have needs to be used.
		And I think that's what he's talking about when he says, go on and live your life even though you have more information.
		That's right.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You get to do what you want.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You get to make your life and have fun and do whatever you want.
unidentified		Right.
		Can you tell me if there's, in the other dimensions of what you're talking about in the 70 or so groups, do they show any sign of their own spirituality?
		I'm not talking about religion here at all, but of a separate spirituality or more intense spirituality or just different?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't have an answer to that.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Well, thanks a lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call.
		And it'll have to be fast, but we'll do one more here.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hello.
unidentified		I was wondering, if Mr. Lear has ever read people such as Charles Ford and H.P. Lovecraft and people like that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, what's the name?
unidentified		Charles Ford.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Charles Ford and Lovecraft?
unidentified		Yeah.
		No.
		Oh, what is it?
		Charles Ford?
		Charles Ford, yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've read a lot of his books.
unidentified		Yeah, that's what I meant.
		It just seems that when you talked about it, I would like you to expand upon it a little bit.
		It's when you referred to that somehow humans were considered to be containers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vessels, even.
		I've heard that word.
		Where are you calling from, ma'am?
unidentified		I'm in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, you've said it before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vessels, containers for the soul?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're speculating it for the soul.
		It wasn't described in the documents that Bob read exactly what we were containers of.
		We could be containers of hormones, enzymes, or whatever.
		My own speculation is that we are containers of soul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it's a good one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I hope we do contain souls.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		You can never destroy the soul.
		It goes on forever and ever and ever.
		And some people are able to recall past experiences.
		But most people are not.
		You're not supposed to be able to recall.
		But in fact, the soul goes on forever.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On that note, Vessels, all of you, containers, we are going to have to pause for Mortal News at the top of the hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be back with John Lear and more from the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting comment.
		I hope it's not, too.
		Wild Card Line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to ask John Lear a question, but I really doubt that he can do anything but deny it.
		John, how long have you been involved in the occult?
		Never, as far as I know.
		You're saying that most of the information in the books that you read are not occult books?
		No.
		No, because I read a book about 10 years ago called The Cosmic Trigger, Final Secret of the Illuminatus, and how they were going to duplicate the second coming of Christ with the alien deal that people would believe that they were going to be saved by aliens.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, I understand what he's saying.
		I'm sure a lot of the religious folks out there think you've got three sixes somewhere tattooed under your hairline.
		Huh, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Under that gray hair.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, what about Air America?
		You did...
		Can you talk about that at all?
unidentified		Sure.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		I worked for CASSI, which was Continental Air Services, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Continental Airlines.
		We did the same work as Air America, but we were not a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA, which Air America was.
		We did all the same stuff.
		But no, I did not work for Air America.
		I worked for CASSI.
		And those that are familiar with the operations in Southeast Asia will know exactly what I'm talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not going to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to bring some up, but I'm not going to do it.
unidentified		Go ahead.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Iran-Contra.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to talk about that?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		What's there to talk about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You transported, or were about to transport, some material to Iran, yes?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Arms and ammunition from Israel to Iran, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you ran some of the early weapons that Israel cut loose on our word, is that correct?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I never made a flight.
		Like I say, the first airplane in got shot down.
		The Mossad, who was running the operation, didn't want to send the 707th in, which I was flying.
		So they canceled the operation.
		Later, I think it was like six or eight months later, they ran it with another airline that was out of, oh, somewhere like NASA or NASA or someplace like that, and ran it from the Persian Gulf, like Dubai or one of those countries, directly into the Gulf.
		into iran so they didn't have to go around another country like like we did turkey we had to go through turkish airspace and the deal was that we Would drop every other load or give Turkey every other load that went in in permission for flying over their airspace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Just thought I'd get that out.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Yeah, I'd like to ask him a little more about that security that the government has that doesn't allow the president to know very much.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, uh-huh.
unidentified		What was that called again?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just described how security works.
		The lowest clearance is top secret, and then there's thirty-eight levels above that.
		But the President of the United States only has like a number seventeen level.
		And there's not enough time to clear him, nor is there any reason to clear him.
		Well, what what sort of uh is this some sort of government agency that that this security and it got out of control.
		They ran the whole operation.
		People who think we have a democracy, even a republic, are badly mistaken.
		We don't.
		But we hear it enough that we have a free country.
		You know, the bigger the lie, the more people believe it.
		But in fact, it's not true.
		MJ-12 runs the whole thing.
unidentified		Okay, one last thing, Ark.
		Could you give the number, or not the number, the address to your network?
		I'll take it off on the address to the network.
		What do you mean?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, what do you mean, sir?
unidentified		The address to the network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean to write to me?
unidentified		Yeah, to the network, yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the network is in a separate place than I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to?
unidentified		In Oregon, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yo, in Oregon.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I'd like to see about advertising on your program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, contact me by fax.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		And that's area code 702-727-8499.
		That's my fax number, 8499.
		If you want to contact the network directly, it's area code 503-664-8829-8829.
		And if you want a tape of this program, as long as I'm going nuts with numbers here, it's area code 503-664-7966.
		John, we're in the number mode.
		Why don't you give the address for the Lazar tape?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, the Lazar tape is Tri-Dot Corporation.
		That's T-R-I-D-O-T Corporation, and it's 1324 Southeastern.
		And it's Las Vegas, Nevada, 89104.
		Don't look for the number because it's not in the book.
		It's $29.95 plus $3 in shipping and handling for the Lazar tape, where he describes his experiences with the back engineering on the Sodrum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Vancouver, Canada calling.
		Great show.
		Hello, John.
		I don't really know too much about UFOs, so this might be a real basic question, but can you tell me about navigation of these craft and what they would be built of?
		What kind of compounds are?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		It's my understanding that the material that they're made out of is more or less a grown material.
		They've been able to compact and compact the atom to such a tight state that it's almost indestructible.
		We've seen that many times where a saucer will crash into sand and be at a 45-degree angle impact, but there's little or no damage at all.
		As far as the navigation, I don't know how that works.
		I just know how the propulsion works.
unidentified		Okay, well, best of luck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, you remember, first of all, did you happen to catch the movie Roswell on Showtime?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure, the producer was a friend of mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, what was your assessment of the movie?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it good?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was pretty good.
		Each time they make a movie, they get a little closer and a little closer to the truth.
		I didn't like the way that they portrayed the alien as some poor lady, you know, reaching out.
		And it didn't look all that realistic.
		But, you know, it was better than this stuff before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in that movie and in descriptions of Roswell, there is a number of witnesses, John, who say that a piece of material from one of those craft was held, and they showed it in Roswell, and you could crumple it up, and it would spring right back out again.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that similar to the material that you described a little while ago?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		As the construction?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Some of it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Some of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you can imagine, I suppose, various parts of it.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're all different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Let's go here.
		On the wild card line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Greg from N'Kiske, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nakiskey, Alaska, yes, sir.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Anyways, I missed the first couple hours because King United doesn't play those until after you're over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		So this may have already been answered, but I got three short questions for John.
		Number one, are you a member of the Trilateral Commission?
		No.
		How about the Council on Foreign Relations?
		No.
		How about a member of the Masons?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Of what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Masons.
unidentified		The Masons?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but what is it?
unidentified		Oh, the Masonic Lodge?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the Masonic.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, but I can tell you that I have certainly been accused of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about the CIA, John?
		Let's cover them all.
		KGB.
		NSA.
unidentified		No?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm just a poor old airline pilot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, caller.
unidentified		Okay, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		McKisky, Alaska.
		Well, that covers most of the alphabet agencies anyway.
		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Not a lot of time.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Guard.
		Good morning, Tom.
		Morning.
		About a couple, two, three months ago, my wife and I were looking at the telescope.
		We had a really good view.
		And in the outer layer of the moon, there was like a blue half moon.
		But there also looked to be sort of like a craft that was, I never taught, But is that really possible?
		Or do you think maybe that was more like a reflection of maybe the sun or, you know, of the picture we've got?
		Because it was, you know, more like a sauce.
		It was like a softer shape, but it was really like an orange type with a little bit of light.
		Not a whole lot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		possible a very good friend of mine one morning was So stay right where you are.
		We'll be right back to you.
		You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		The CBC Radio Network It's a favorite, famous 200-inch Hale telescope.
		You know, Dr. Hale, it's interesting.
		He never saw his telescope become a reality, but he was led by an invisible dwarf who apparently inspired him, told him where to build it, and that sort of thing.
		I have two questions.
		First of all, What does your guest think of George Adamski, who is also a local fellow here?
		He was apparently the father of the UFO culture.
		And also, does he have any information on a hypersonic vehicle called Aurora, which is apparently a top-secret thing coming out of a base in northern Scotland?
		We have a lot of sonic booms here on Wednesdays and Thursdays, and we've been hearing that this is coming from this Aurora vehicle, which does something strange over the San Diego area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it there.
		Let's get a response.
		John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, George Adamski reported everything exactly as it happened.
		He was reported to be a hoaxer, but no, all that stuff happened to him.
		The photos were analyzed by friends of mine who had very good analyzing equipment, and it was true.
		There was one picture of him looking outside of a saucer, and that was true.
		Hale had a very interesting background.
		There was an alien that talked to that guy and led him in some of his research endeavors, and he has a very, very interesting history.
		The Aurora is a Mach 15 airplane operating out of somewhere in the United States, but also goes into Macrahanish, which is in northern Scotland.
unidentified		I see.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that is one of our top secret, one of our six top secret airplanes.
unidentified		How high does that fly, do you know?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		285,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And at Mach 15?
unidentified		Yeah.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		People say Mach 7 or 8, but it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's Mach 7.
		Mach 15.
		Wow.
		Tol C Line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, this is Dana and Eugene.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KPMW Country.
unidentified		Yeah, when I lived in Redmond, Washington, I was over to Friends of a Friend's House.
		And there was an Army intelligence guy who his dad worked with for a lot of years.
		And this guy sent him, like, just a thousand of page document.
		He was supposedly on the run from the government because they were trying to hunt him down.
		And he sent like six of these papers out.
		And one of the things he said was that Roswell, and he was giving, I mean, case file numbers, everything, anything you could possibly want on it.
		I just barely saw the document.
		But we just sat around and talked about it one night.
		He said at Roswell, they recovered the bodies.
		One of them was alive.
		His name was something like Emu or Enu or something like that.
		They had like two separate brains, one on the left side, one on the right side.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
unidentified		They ate human flesh.
		Oh, you know that, but yeah, go ahead.
		And just, you know, he went into the whole cover, but I mean, he detailed everything from, you know, different fighter pilots, their names, their vehicle identification number, everything, you know, just hundreds of documents on that.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That would be great to get those documents, wouldn't it?
unidentified		Oh, I wish I knew the guy.
		I mean, that was the only time I ever talked to the guy.
		I moved like a week after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, a brain on the left and a brain on the right?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was called bifurcated brain system.
		They were completely independent and separated by a ridge bone.
		Now, why that was, I don't know, but I remember reading the autopsy report on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, you have an autopsy?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the stuff that Stringfield put out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		All right.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Lewis over in Chico.
		John, about two years ago, I had an opportunity while I was back east to run into an intelligence officer.
		I won't give his branch of service because I certainly don't want to get him in trouble.
		But he worked out of one of our top command units back on the East Coast.
		And he told me that, now this is what he said, that the aliens that supposedly that our government's dealing with are in a non-interference type of pact.
		And that there were other aliens who were interfering.
		And he said there was actually three levels of government in this country.
		And they're all vying for positions of power.
		And they're kind of all in like a standoff to each other because, you know, different groups of these supposed aliens have upped the ante.
		You know, it's just kind of like here on Earth, you know, Bosnia.
		You know, somebody gets an AK-47, then the next guy gets a nuclear bomb.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree with that, and I think your friend was right.
unidentified		He also said, though, that the ones that, you know, were, you know, they kind of kept an overall picture of the thing.
		He said that most of the abductions were not being carried out by aliens, but they were being carried out by the government, and it was for use for later, you know, they were programming people.
		They would go out and find people who would be susceptible to this.
		He said they had special editions of films that were very subliminal, and they would get like a control who would make friends with certain individuals, and they would go over to the guy's house, you know, and show him a special copy of E.T., except the guy's not knowing he's watching a special copy of E.T. and they would program these people up to a point where they would either give them a hypnotic experience or they would actually,
		and I thought this kind of amusing, but he said they actually hired dwarfs and would dress them up and have a whole theater set up to be like a ship and give these people a physical experience so that even if they took them out and they got out to a psychiatrist or a hypnotist who was not even believing in this, when he would put them under, that he would get the reading back from them that they actually believed what they went under, what they were doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, kind of a mission impossible sort of thing.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That's true, and it's been detailed by Martin Cannon, the government abductions.
		And yeah, they do pretend they're aliens.
		I don't think it's the predominant form of production of abductions.
		But yes, the government is certainly doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of research now, John, into the abduction phenomenon.
		A lot of the researchers have sort of left the sighting mode, and they think the way to pursue this now is through the abduction phenomenon.
		Do you agree with that, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		That would be hard to do, but I'm just going to sit and watch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the toll-free line, you're on the air with John Lear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Rich in Anchorage, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Rich.
unidentified		I guess you could call me one of them fat, dumb, and lazy Americans because I just got turned onto your program a little while ago, so I'm learning.
unidentified		But I was wondering if you could explain to me what MJ-12 actually is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we did earlier, but we will again, John?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		MJ-12 was the government, the secret review body that was put together by President Truman in 1947 to review and decide what to do about the alien threat, if any.
		It was given teeth by President Eisenhower when he got in and regretted by President Eisenhower when he got out.
		He said beware of the military industrial complex, which MJ-12 essentially run.
		For the people who don't believe that MJ-12 exists, my source for the existence of MJ-12 was Jimmy Doolittle.
		And since he's passed away now, I don't mind saying that that was my source.
		He confirmed to me that it did exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with John Lear.
unidentified		Oh, good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Dan the Man, AWN Live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, real quick, because we're almost out of time.
unidentified		Okay, what I wanted to say was that Dr. Frank Spranges, have you heard of him?
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Okay, well, I'll try to, would you ever have him on your Dreamland?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, I have not had him on Dreamland.
unidentified		Okay, well, he would be a very interesting person to have.
unidentified		He says that one-third of the fallen angels, you know, the one that came from heaven, are part of the UFO phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, on that note, we're going to have to close out.
		John, we're out of time.
		We've done it again.
		Made it all the way through.
		Great, Art.
		And, you know, as long as you are around and I'm around, John, I'm sure there'll be another show in our future.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine, anytime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's a pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's always a pleasure, my friend.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		John, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
john lear ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good night.
unidentified		If you've missed any part of tonight's interview with John Lear on UFOs and you'd like to have a copy on tape, dial toll-free 1-800-917-4278 and ask for tape number 980115C.
unidentified		The cost is $33.50 for all five hours without the commercial.

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