Jan. 30, 1994 - Art Bell
01:46:42
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| In the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. | ||
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and 5 p.m. | |
| at area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| That's Angela Thompson at area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| And now, Area 2000. | ||
| Good evening, everybody. | ||
| Welcome to Area 2000. | ||
| That's Angela Thompson at area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| And now, Area 2000. | ||
| Good evening, everybody. Welcome to Area 2000. | ||
| I'm Art Bell, and you're now listening to the next to the last of Area 2000. | ||
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unidentified
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Sad. | |
| Anyway, good evening. | ||
| I've got a special surprise for you this evening. | ||
| Linda Moulton Howe is in the studio with us. | ||
| She's actually here in Las Vegas. | ||
| Hi, Linda. | ||
| It's nice to be here, Art, and remember things evolve. | ||
| You're planning to go into dreamland with this, so it's not really so much a goodbye as it is sort of a twilight. | ||
| One thing is shifting into something else. | ||
| Exactly right, and we're looking forward to having you on dreamland as well. | ||
| Thanks, and I'm glad I was able to bring Glimpses of Other Realities to you and hand it into your hands. | ||
| The book is finally done. | ||
| It is here, and it is beautiful, and the cover is particularly nice. | ||
| Gosh, the cover is beautiful. | ||
| How did you come up with the cover, if I can start there? | ||
| Ron Russell is a very talented man in Denver, Colorado, and he has spent his life dealing with what I consider, and I think he does too, other realities in an art form, where he uses some specific kind of pigment that I don't really understand, but you have to put them in glass, or they're on glass, and they are lighted from behind. | ||
| And a year and a half ago, he gave me a transparency of one of his artworks and he says, Linda, I want to give this to you to use in whatever way you want. | ||
| And when I started working on this book, September 1 of 1992, his artwork just kept ringing in my head. | ||
| And I think, in terms of glimpses of other realities, that he had created something that was just almost destined for the cover of this book. | ||
| So, in other words, that was the one that you ended up using? | ||
| That's right. | ||
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Oh? | |
| That's right. | ||
| And he had given it to me a whole year and a half before the book was even born. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Well, let's talk about the book a little bit. | ||
| Tell us about the book. | ||
| What's in here? | ||
| Well, part of my own frustration of the last 14 years was trying to understand, starting with the physical bodies of animals that we've discussed on Area 2000 over the last few months, where there was this mystery of no blood, no tracks, all of the odd anomalies associated with animals. | ||
| When I began that, and was doing it purely from a journalist's point of view of focusing on What is this? | ||
| And what could be doing it? | ||
| And is there an environmental contamination? | ||
| And all those sort of practical questions that any journalist is confronted with. | ||
| And then finding myself being led from that to the abductions. | ||
| What the abductions gave insights back to the mutilation. | ||
| That leading to the whole idea that there are Might be more than one kind of an intelligence that's interacting with our planet. | ||
| What would that intelligence be? | ||
| What might it look like? | ||
| And all of the various drawings across the United States, Canada and other parts of the world, where people are drawing very similar types, not all the same, that reinforces the idea that maybe that there is either one or more intelligences interacting with our planet or There might be one, but that it has a variety of tasks and is capable of making different types of biological, we'll call them androids or some kind of worker bees, to do various tasks on this planet, designed perhaps for different kinds of physical... So then this book does what? | ||
| It follows your line of investigation all the way through? | ||
| Well, and even more so, I think now it's 14 years later, and after a while, it's just like anything, you begin to get more distance on it, and it gives you a little wider perspective. | ||
| I certainly don't have the answers to the major questions of who, what, or why, but what I am trying to do is to put into a cover a kind of distillation, a synthesis of the patterns The patterns are there if you start looking at them, and what I've tried to do with, there are 300 images in this book, 161 are in color, and after a while when you look at all of those images, and as the pages evolve, I think that it would be hard to come away from this book without at least saying, there must be something more | ||
| To all of these phenomena, just because the patterns themselves that are across the country, Canada, other countries of the world, something must be going on that we are missing as a species. | ||
| That's my whole motive for doing this book. | ||
| Would the book make a good case, Linda? | ||
| In other words, by the time you've gone through it, you've examined the evidence, lots of pictures, would you come to the conclusion that indeed there is something more? | ||
| Well, the people so far that have looked at the book have said one similar thing to me, | ||
| and this was basically in the final stages where you send a book out to people who know maybe something | ||
| and some who don't, and you get feedback before it's in this finished form. | ||
| And I think the consistent feedback to me was, we've never seen this much data in these pages compressed | ||
| before. | ||
| Now, that's part of also the motive for doing this, is that because of this unique position I found myself in | ||
| as a journalist who sort of stumbled into other phenomena that I did not know was there through these animals, | ||
| that I myself kept feeling a frustration as a journalist that even my colleagues would say, | ||
| there's nothing to any of this. | ||
| Why are you pursuing it? | ||
| And I would say, but have you looked at the laboratory reports? | ||
| Have you talked with scientists and medical people who are studying some of these phenomena, even if they're not doing it publicly? | ||
| And that's the one thing I've been trying to contribute. | ||
| Is there are scientific investigations whether it's in the crop circles or the animal mutilations or the human abductions. | ||
| There are scientists who are intrigued. | ||
| They are doing very valuable studies even if you don't know who they are. | ||
| And then I'm the journalist who I'm bringing back these patterns of discoveries, or at least trying to, and saying there is a pattern to phenomena here and we should at least try to look at it in its bigger context. | ||
| That's the one thing Glimpses of Other Realities, I hope it is doing. | ||
| It's giving a larger picture of what many times in the past has been reported as an isolated story. | ||
| Animal mutilation in Duluth, Minnesota. | ||
| But what people didn't know was that the same year there were mutilations in 23 states. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| I just opened the book randomly and I came upon a couple of pictures of mutilations. | ||
| So some of it is fairly rough stuff. | ||
| But if you want documentation... But very pristine. | ||
| You couldn't say... There's nothing glory about it. | ||
| Oh, no, no, no, no. | ||
| No, but this is real stuff. | ||
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That's right. | |
| I mean, these are real pictures. | ||
| And the book is filled with them. | ||
| And, for example, Crop circles. | ||
| Boy, there are some incredibly well-detailed pictures of crop circles in here. | ||
| Really well-detailed. | ||
| So everybody should know that's what they will get. | ||
| I'm kind of giving them a hint because we've got a big surprise for the audience, don't we? | ||
| Well, yes, and I want you to announce the surprise so that people will also understand that With the Crop Circles is the first presentation ever of the work of the biophysicist Dr. Levengood who we've had on Area 2000 and the work that he has done in which he concludes That there are fundamental changes in the biophysical and biochemical structure of the plant that cannot be hoaxed. | ||
| You can't change the molecular structure of a plant simply by walking on it. | ||
| Something is affecting the molecular structure. | ||
| As I recall, the only thing that he could get close with was microwave energy. | ||
| On one aspect of the change and that has to do with the cell pits. | ||
| He knows that some kind of an energy has to be affecting the plants or he couldn't have molecular structure changes in what was called the bract tissue. | ||
| This is very delicate tissue that encases the bottom of seeds like a weed or rye or something and because he has worked with seeds all of his life, It's that particular part of the plant that he has been concentrating on. | ||
| He's done work on the stems, too, but this tissue that shows that there is some kind of a fundamental change at a level that no one walking on it could affect is one of the most intriguing parts of the investigation right now. | ||
| So, people put their hands on this book as soon as they can. | ||
| Now, if somebody wanted to get this book, Linda, how would they get it? | ||
| They can order it from Linda Howe Productions, Post Office Box 538 in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. | ||
| Zip code 19006, the address I've given out, or you can go into any local bookstore and simply ask them to order Glimpses of Other Realities, and they can get it just as well that way. | ||
| It may take a little longer than Linda Howe Productions in Huntington Valley, but every bookstore in the United States It's a wonderful title, Linda. | ||
| Do you think that's what we're getting? | ||
| and several bookstores already are carrying it, like the Tattered Cover in Denver and | ||
| Oxford and Atlanta. | ||
| So it's just a question of going to the bookstore and telling them to order glimpses of other | ||
| realities. | ||
| And I will welcome everybody's feedback and I will try to answer the letters personally. | ||
| It's a wonderful title, Linda. | ||
| Do you think that's what we're getting? | ||
| Are we getting glimpses of other realities or in fact is it a reality in real time? | ||
| No, I personally feel that there is more complexity to this universe than we've been taught. | ||
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Thank you. | |
| Coming to the abductees, and they were probably the first to introduce this idea that we're in something like a radio station. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And that this earth and what we perceive to be this universe might be 91.3 on the dial. | ||
| But that 104.5 is just a tune of the dial over there. | ||
| The quantum physicists for at least 12 years, 15 years, quantum physicists mathematically have been saying that if they go into the atomic structure of let's say a linear accelerator and what it is that they keep discovering there, That it forces them to begin to conclude that there have to be other dimensions, even if we can't articulate them, draw them, photograph them, or touch them. | ||
| There's something about a mathematical structure that the universe itself seems to be forcing us to see. | ||
| And this also is one of the underlying themes of the book, Glimpses of Other Reality. | ||
| And so that's all we get of it. | ||
| If it's another dimension, we get a bit of a glimpse every now and then, somehow. | ||
| Yeah, and what if, this is a what if, because I don't know, but what if the whole phenomenon of ghosts and poltergeists could be, like sometimes we're listening to a radio station and another station suddenly is phasing into that station because we're in the stronger field of that particular broadcast for just a certain period of time on the road and then it goes out again. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| It's possible that ghosts are a reality, that poltergeist activity and various other things that people have seen over eons and have reported and other people have said, well it must be in the realm of hallucination or it gets put into mythology. | ||
| What if in this next century what we're going to begin to find is that these other radio stations have their own distinct reality just like the one we're living in and that Maybe. | ||
| There are other intelligences and other radio stations that know how to get into ours. | ||
| But right now, we don't know how to get into theirs. | ||
| All right. | ||
| For a second, let's assume that's true. | ||
| If there were other dimensions, or are other dimensions, and we're getting glimpses and we wanted more, what path of investigation would we most effectively follow, do you suppose? | ||
| Well, there are several things. | ||
| Bob Bigelow, the Bigelow Foundation and I, tonight we were talking about the whole I guess you might say challenging area of remote viewing which has been kicked around and I know the government has used it and other people are experimenting with it in terms of accessing things that are at a great distance. | ||
| Tell everybody what remote viewing actually is. | ||
| Well I have seen one of the famous remote viewers named Ingo Swann show me his own remote viewing work in New York last year and what you begin to realize is that it is, as he's tried to explain it, you're given a | ||
| coordinate, a latitude, a longitude. | ||
| That's all the remote viewer usually has. | ||
| Sometimes it may be a concealed photograph, but usually it's a coordinate. | ||
| And it has something to do with the way that, let's assume, and I'm not sure that anybody fully understands how this | ||
| works, but let's say that the planet has an electromagnetic grid | ||
| to it. | ||
| We may not be able to see it, but we might measure it, and that our brains are also acting on an electrical field, and there are measurable electromagnetic fields around the brain. | ||
| It may be that some people have an ability to interface their electrical brain field | ||
| in this electromagnetic field of the planet in such a way that with a coordinate, for | ||
| some reason, they can go to that place and they will get, and these again are impulses, | ||
| they are not visions, but they become, as he said, you go to the impulses before imagination | ||
| or you go to the impulses of thought that you get, like a quick intuitive flash, and | ||
| Would the remote viewer have to understand, in his or her own mind, what that coordinate means geographically? | ||
| Would you have to be... No. | ||
| No? | ||
| No. | ||
| That's not the way it works. | ||
| And why I answered with this is, you were asking, how might we access, let's say, another radio station that wasn't in this dimensional reality, if we didn't have the technology to get there? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, the mind, as far as we know, seems to operate outside of time and space. | ||
| It may be that this field that is both enigmatic and yet the remote viewers who do it say that it's really quite cut and dried to them. | ||
| It is something that they have a focus. | ||
| And their mind somehow goes, and they get impulses, and then they see, or they begin to draw things. | ||
| So it's not consciously directed. | ||
| In other words, it's just something, some ability the mind has. | ||
| Well, it's a receiving stimulus of some sort, and I really, because I'm not a remote viewer, and I'm not, you know, when you try to describe something you haven't experienced, it's difficult. | ||
| I can only report what another remote viewer has said to me. | ||
| But the whole idea of how do you access that which is the in the unseen? | ||
| Well, that's how remote viewing began in the Defense Department. | ||
| It's now, you know, the famous book... Can you tell us what's been documented? | ||
| there when Bloom in New York did the book talking about the Army | ||
| intelligence people in the Pentagon who were trying to use remote viewing to | ||
| access Soviet submarines. That is now a story that has been reported and | ||
| apparently there was for a period of time our government was trying to access | ||
| things under the sea using remote viewing and in some cases were quite | ||
| accurate. Okay when you say access what was somebody able to do? The remote | ||
| viewers sat there they gave him the coordinates yes he found the submarine | ||
| did he was he in the submarine? | ||
| Did he see what's going on? | ||
| Did he get signals or...? | ||
| The pages that I've seen from remote viewer notebooks, they're drawing sketches. | ||
| The whole time that they're getting these impulses in their brain, they're making sketches on a piece of paper. | ||
| Oh, pictures? | ||
| Some kind. | ||
| It's a... | ||
| Some are more abstract and some are more literal, and this gets into this issue that even if we could remote view, let's say, another dimensional reality, it still could be argued that it was still a subjective interpretation on a piece of paper until we got there. | ||
| But it may be that in the next 50 years, that what we're going to see is | ||
| what more serious consideration of how the mind might be able to interface with other realities. | ||
| Clearly, our intelligence agencies have used and experimented with a whole variety of mind over matter techniques | ||
| that's been documented since the 50s in a variety of books. | ||
| How that will relate to our investigating, We'll call it the unseen or other realities or even other | ||
| planets in this universe. | ||
| I don't know, but it is one possible technique without having to go there physically in some kind of a craft. | ||
| Okay, I don't want to pry secrets from you, but is this the direction the Bigelow Foundation may be going in to look at or investigate remote viewing? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I can't speak for the Bigelow Foundation. | ||
| I know that they're exploring a number of areas of research, but this is just one of those provocative subjects that it comes up because it seems to be one of those areas right now where people are experimenting. | ||
| I have a man who came to me three months ago. | ||
| He wanted me to participate in a program he's doing with Remeld viewers in which he wanted me to supply Whatever I wanted to from the phenomena, for example, that's in Glimpses of Other Realities, whether it was crop circles, animals, or something else. | ||
| So, I now have some photographs that no one knows, but me, what they are, unless they violated and opened up the sealed envelopes. | ||
| And I'm going to get a report back from remote viewers on what they interpret. | ||
| So I think what this is coming down to is that at the end of this century right now and glimpses of other realities is just one indication that we are definitely living on a planet in a universe that seems to be more complicated and has parts to it that we have not been able as a society, a global society, to discuss in a kind of open way that the universe may be different than we were taught. | ||
| Right. | ||
| We're in a revolution. | ||
| We're not alone. | ||
| There are other dimensions. | ||
| Quantum physicists are saying that. | ||
| In the next century, who knows? | ||
| We may actually access some other dimensional reality. | ||
| So then, with this book, somebody could follow all of your investigations? | ||
| And come to some of those same conclusions independently that you did now. | ||
| I don't know if they'll come to the same conclusions, but they will certainly be seen as volume one. | ||
| It's one of a volume two set, and I'm subtitling this. | ||
| And eyewitnesses. | ||
| In this volume, everything in it is first-hand testimony, photographs, scientific investigations, lab reports, documents, but it builds up over, I think, the chapters to at least a point of view that maybe even our most ancient past is somehow very relevant to what's happening today. | ||
| Um, so, it's $39.95. | ||
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$39.95. | |
| It's a big book. | ||
| I should tell you all, this is a big book. | ||
| Probably double the size of a normal book, or very nearly double. | ||
| And, uh, it is a compilation of a great deal of evidence. | ||
| A lot of it in pictures. | ||
| And, uh, I think it's well worth your time, and your $39.95. | ||
| You ought to get hold of it, and now I've got a big surprise for all of you. | ||
| For 50 lucky people out there, thanks to the Bigelow Foundation. | ||
| If you call the Bigelow Foundation at 9 o'clock in the morning, not before everybody, everybody starts calling early, 9 o'clock. | ||
| They won't give you a book before 9 o'clock. | ||
| If you call them in the morning, there are 50 books to be given to the first 50 callers. | ||
| That's really nice, isn't it, Linda? | ||
| That's a giveaway. | ||
| Yeah, I am grateful that they... | ||
| Bigelow Foundation is there and that they can do this because I would welcome feedback from those 50 people who get this book. | ||
| I really would like to know. | ||
| No, why don't we make that a condition? | ||
| These 50 lucky people are going to be required to feedback a little bit to Linda. | ||
| All right, that's a deal. | ||
| And the address again to give you feedback is Post Office Box 538 in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania and the zip code is 19006. | ||
| Well, that's great, and maybe we could have the Bigelow Foundation in the morning give that information to the winners as they win. | ||
| And it's in the book anyway. | ||
| Oh, it's in the book. | ||
| That's right. | ||
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Okay, great. | |
| How to contact the authors in the last page of the book. | ||
| All right, lucky folks. | ||
| The number to call in the morning at 9 o'clock, not before, is area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| Let me give that again. | ||
| Area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| That's the Bigelow Foundation. | ||
| And what you're vying for is one copy of Linda's brand new book, Glimpses of Other Realities. | ||
| And you had a segment set aside here, Linda. | ||
| Yeah, there were two things I was hoping Art to do tonight, and one was a quick update on that strange infrared satellite image that I talked about last Sunday. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And I thought I would share an excerpt from the Denver Post, Thursday, January 27th, just three days ago. | ||
| It is a large headline in the front section, and it says, Mystery Heat Source Sparks Wonder, Lights in the Sky, Strange Helicopters Puzzle, San Luis Valley. | ||
| It's like shades of 1967 all over again, when that horse was found stripped of flesh, people were reporting UFOs, there were all kinds of things going on in the San Luis Valley. | ||
| Well, it's happening again. | ||
| This particular newspaper story, written by Brad Smith for the Denver Post, starts out, a series of sightings of unidentified helicopters, mysterious flares, and falling green orbs of light in the night over the San Luis Valley, has some valley residents wondering what is going on. | ||
| Military authorities say they can't provide any answers to the mystery, but the chief investigator for the Rio Grande County Sheriff's Office speculated that a cruise missile might have crashed and the wreckage was secretly removed. | ||
| This is where sheriff's offices think when they're dealing with the strange, the unexpected, and possibly something from outer space. | ||
| It all began January 12th when a satellite linked to the North American Aerospace Defense Command in Colorado Springs picked up an intense heat source emanating from the San Luis Valley. | ||
| Such sightings were reported to the sheriff and they went out to investigate and they reported back that they could not find anything. | ||
| Quote, from what NORAD told us, the satellite would not have noticed anything that was not bigger than a three acre fire. | ||
| So whatever it was had to be larger than three acres and they found nothing. | ||
| At the same time that the sheriffs were out looking for this large gigantic fire or explosion, A woman driving out of Monta Vista at 625 in the evening on January 13th reported seeing, and this is her quote, a soft green light that looked like a soft ball falling out of the sky in the same area. | ||
| Her report was confirmed by another man who said the green ball appeared to hit the earth in the Rock Creek area, which is south of Monta Vista. | ||
| On January 16th, the man who saw the green ball of light, He said that he saw three B-52 bombers flying high above that area. | ||
| The three planes dived toward the Rock Creek site, flew over a low mountain called Greeny, and flew away. | ||
| The next night, the Sheriff's Office got calls from three different people who said they saw a blue flare in the Rock Creek area. | ||
| Four deputies in four-wheel drive vehicles went to the area, but could not find anything. | ||
| At night on January 18th, Sheriff's Deputy Mike James was patrolling in the Rock Creek area and saw three helicopters flying about 100 yards apart. | ||
| Because of the darkness, the deputy was unable to identify any of the helicopters. | ||
| The following night, an anonymous caller who said he lived south of Montevista told the Sheriff's Office he heard two large explosions coming from Rock Creek. | ||
| And the last report came January 21, when a resident of the Rock Creek area called the Sheriff's Office to report seeing a black helicopter flying overhead. | ||
| The resident did not see any markings, and it was gone by the time the deputy got there. | ||
| This is Absolutely. | ||
| Another example of exactly the same kind of phenomenon happening in a concentrated period of time. | ||
| Green fireballs. | ||
| Black helicopters, animal mutilations in the San Luis Valley, law enforcement going out after things that aren't there. | ||
| That happened also in 1957, and the green fireballs were what Lincoln LaPaz, a scientist in the 40s to the 50s, was assigned to study in a project that has now come out in public as being called Project Glean. | ||
| So, whether something now in 94 And I know Michael Lindeman is on tonight. | ||
| He is. | ||
| Hold that thought for just one moment. | ||
| Let me ID the radio station. | ||
| but the same kind of phenomena is now being reported and I will try to keep up on this story | ||
| because I think it's really quite significant. | ||
| It is. | ||
| And I know Michael Lindemann is on tonight. | ||
| He is. Hold that thought for just one moment. | ||
| Let me ID the radio station. We'll come right back. | ||
| All right. | ||
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From Jackie Gons' Plaza downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas. | |
| Good evening, everybody. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| This is Area 2000. | ||
| Linda Howe is here in the studio with us this evening, and I've just told you, and I'll tell you again about the big, big book giveaway beginning at 9 o'clock in the morning and going until we've given away 50 of her brand new books, Glimpses of Other Realities. | ||
| All right, Linda. | ||
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Indeed, we've got Michael Lindemann. | |
| Michael Lindemann coming up in just a moment, so go ahead. | ||
| I think he's got a way of introducing himself. | ||
| He's a dear friend and colleague, and he and I have spent many hours discussing how we're going to reply. | ||
| Is there so much angry denial about the possibility of another intelligence being involved with our planet in some way? | ||
| And when I was getting to the area of what's called an epilogue in a book, where you try at least to wrap up some of the thoughts and maybe leave readers with some kind of a launching off point, in my case, to the next book, Michael had written something for a presentation he was given, and he hadn't said it to me. | ||
| And I asked him, I said, I think that that is such a concise and focused summary for this moment right now. | ||
| Could I use this as your quote in my epilogue? | ||
| And I want to share with our listeners right now what I think is a very cogent and perceptive summary of the condition of our planet in relationship to this phenomenon. | ||
| This is from my friend Michael Linderman. | ||
| The inescapable profundity of the alien presence has become a source of social pathology in our time. | ||
| As a culture, we have not yet learned how to tell the truth about something so huge, so strange, and so unexpected. | ||
| Individuals who make an honest effort to deal with it often discover that their personal stability is at risk. | ||
| Consequently, the alien presence requires us all to grow, to become stronger and clearer, | ||
| and to help one another to find our way in gaining the new world. | ||
| So Michael, wherever you are, find words tonight with your own perception. | ||
| Santa Barbara, actually, is where he is, and we're about to go there. | ||
| But you're not getting out of the studio without signing that book for me. | ||
| All right. | ||
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Good deal. | |
| Here's the pen to use. | ||
| And that's right, folks. | ||
| I'm getting a book right now. | ||
| And if you want one, you're going to have to call at 9 o'clock in the morning. | ||
| The Bigelow Foundation at area code 702. | ||
| 4-5-6-1-6-0-6, and I think you'll find it indeed very rewarding. | ||
| This is a fabulous book. | ||
| There's a lot of documentation in it. | ||
| A lot of times people complain that authors writing in this area do a great deal of speculation and very little documentation, and this book is full of documentation. | ||
| So if you want to get a good glimpse of another reality and a wonderful book, then be on that telephone at 9 o'clock in the morning. | ||
| Michael Lindemann was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 1949. | ||
| He became a conscientious objector as a university student during the Vietnam War, developed a lifelong interest in arms control, foreign affairs, and government policy. | ||
| He earned a BA degree in psychology from Antioch University, followed by two years of study at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. | ||
| He later combined his political and psychological interests as an educator, social analyst, and futurist, first as executive director of the Peace Resource Center of Santa Barbara, then as founding director of the 2020 Group, which is a private research organization studying forces that shape the future. | ||
| Since 1990, Michael Lindemann has earned national recognition for contributions to the study of UFOs. | ||
| He first examined the UFO controversy in 1989 from the angle of its possible connection to covert weapons development and social policy, finding substantial evidence in support of UFO claims. | ||
| He founded the Visitors Investigation Project to conduct and publish UFO research. | ||
| He has been on many radio and television programs to Santa Barbara, California, and Michael Lindemann. | ||
| Good morning. | ||
| Good evening, rather, Michael. | ||
| Good evening, Art. | ||
| Welcome to the program. | ||
| Good to have you. | ||
| Glad to be here. | ||
| Well, where to start with you? | ||
| I guess perhaps you might want to comment on Linda's book, which no doubt you have not yet seen. | ||
| Do you have a copy? | ||
| Well, I haven't seen the final copy, but I have had the pleasure of reading it through. | ||
| In fact, I've read it through twice because Linda asked for comments from me, as she did from some other people. | ||
| So I have had the great pleasure of at least examining the text, and I can echo I really do think the book as a whole breaks new ground. | ||
| It is absolutely a magnificent book and although the pictures are wonderfully illustrative | ||
| of the strangeness and just kind of scope of this whole phenomenon, I really do think | ||
| the book as a whole breaks new ground. | ||
| I think it is going to stand as a real basic contribution to our understanding. | ||
| I just feel very proud of Linda and very glad to have played even a very small part in seeing | ||
| this thing through because it is a magnificent piece of work. | ||
| Well look, Linda's still here in the studio so after that rave review I thought I'd let her say at least hello to you and here she is, Linda. | ||
| Well, Michael is one of those colleagues in the world that is invaluable because I trust that he'll always be honest with me if I send him something. | ||
| And it is not easy material, and you need to have feedback from the outside world. | ||
| And I value Michael. | ||
| You hear me thank you, thank you so many times for the edits on this book. | ||
| And the other part of it is that his context has always been trying to deal with what are the bigger implications politically, socially, economically, religiously. | ||
| If you take this book and you take what's in there and you say, here is a tremendous amount, at least of evidentiary evidence. | ||
| If this is real, What are the implications for our planet, and how do we get past the point where we are now, that we're alone in the universe, to we're not alone, and his statement that I read from the epilogue, and that perspective that Michael is trying to share, I think is extremely valuable. | ||
| Well, that's exactly the road we're going to go down right now. | ||
| Onwards, Michael. | ||
| Linda, thank you. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Take care. | ||
| Take care. | ||
| See you, Michael. | ||
| Hi, Linda. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| All right, well there it is, and Michael, that's exactly the road we're going to go down right now, or at least to begin with. | ||
| If Linda's book, or a book like it, were to most of the scientific world, to make them stand up and take notice and virtually say, yes, there's enough documentation here that we've got a little more than smoke, maybe a little fire, there is something to this, what would the implications for society be? | ||
| The problem that we face is that the implications are subliminally frightening before we ever actually think them through. | ||
| And this has been true in science many times before. | ||
| Thomas Kuhn wrote this book called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, in which he put forward the concept of paradigm shift. | ||
| And that has become almost a cliché, this idea of paradigm shift. | ||
| But it is actually a brilliant description of No, you're going to have to explain it to me, Michael. | ||
| What is paradigm shift? | ||
| We live in a paradigm of social agreements. | ||
| A paradigm is a large framework of beliefs that comprise consensus reality. | ||
| You and I are in a consensus reality. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And within a consensus reality, there are certain things which are true by general agreement and certain things which are impossible by general agreement. | ||
| A kind of a grey zone where science and religion and psychology operate. | ||
| But the grey zone is actually not terribly risky. | ||
| The risks people take in science tend, frankly, to be very unrisky in terms of the structure of the paradigm. | ||
| Because when a paradigm begins to actually be challenged, when the whole basic structure of belief begins to be challenged, everything we call normal, everything we call stable, we call predictable, all of it becomes shaky and scary. | ||
| And no one wants to be in that position. | ||
| I just lived through the periphery of the Los Angeles earthquake a couple of weeks ago. | ||
| Give me an example here. | ||
| You know, when the ground is actually moving under your feet, you really aren't a happy camper. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| And when paradigm shift occurs, you're not a happy camper. | ||
| Everybody gets freaked out, and it's really very serious. | ||
| Now, this kind of thing doesn't happen very often, but Thomas Kuhn, in this brilliant little book, which has become an absolute classic. | ||
| It's not a very big book. | ||
| Heck, I think you can read it in about two hours. | ||
| This brilliant little book called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, he wrote it back in the fifties, and basically what he said was, when this happens, the job of the established authorities is to resist it with all their might. | ||
| They resist it with all their might. | ||
| And it is almost as if they are genetically wired to defend The consensus against the hordes of heathen who are going to overturn everything we call real. | ||
| I'm curious, Michael, has there ever been an experiment where they have taken people and convinced them that the aliens have landed or the aliens are here other than George Orwell's radio presentation? | ||
| Has there been a modern A parallel to that in which we've had an opportunity to observe exactly how a small body of people might react. | ||
| That's a really neat question and I wish I knew the answer. | ||
| Would you like to see an experiment of that sort? | ||
| Well, I think an experiment like that could be extremely valuable. | ||
| My sense is that some studies, some covert studies, have been done. | ||
| I have heard of studies, for example, that were done by the Battelle Memorial Institute back in the mid-50s, and they wanted to assess a number of different things. | ||
| They wanted to assess, first of all, the reliability of UFO witnesses, and they were quite stunned to discover That UFO witnesses tend to be extremely reliable. | ||
| If anything, they found out UFO witnesses can detect UFOs with their feet. | ||
| That was very alarming for them because they realized then that if there was a huge proliferation of UFO reports, the likelihood was there was a high degree of reliability there. | ||
| But Patel was also commissioned to do a number of more covert studies to assess how the society would react to some of these issues. | ||
| And because those studies have been sequestered ever since, I don't know anyone who can authoritatively say what was in | ||
| them. | ||
| But the assumption has been that they were not at all pleased by the way people would react. | ||
| Now, the one model that is touted constantly is the one you've already mentioned, which we have the Orwell broadcast in Halloween of 1938. | ||
| And it was, of course, it's hardly a scientific demonstration, but as a sort of a symbol of how people react, it was extremely impressive. | ||
| People don't Yes, we are. | ||
| No question about it. | ||
| And partly I just think that society does evolve on its own steam. | ||
| There have been a lot of sightings under the bridge since then, and a lot of information | ||
| and a lot of programs like the one we are doing right now. | ||
| I guess the question is, are we better prepared today than we were then? | ||
| Yes, we are. | ||
| No question about it. | ||
| Partly I just think that society does evolve on its own steam. | ||
| We have a certain fascination for this stuff. | ||
| To the extent that we are not viscerally threatened, I think we do actually want to know. | ||
| And, of course, we have a popular culture that's loaded with aliens and spaceships and so forth and so forth, all of which is probably very useful. | ||
| More than that, perhaps, there are intimations of a somewhat structured effort to bring us along. | ||
| Now, the truth is, I'm not aware of a single smoking gun that we can actually trot out and say, see, the CIA did this, or the NSA, or somebody did that, or the President ordered that this be done. | ||
| We would love to know that, because many people assume it's happening. | ||
| I myself am rather convinced it's happening, but boy, it sure is hard to show it. | ||
| If you were to take, this is going to try and get you to answer a question you may not want to answer, but if you were to take a hundred average U.S. | ||
| citizens right now and subject them to the seeming reality of an alien presence, whether it was a landing or however you did it, what by percentage reactions do you think in a modern group you might expect to get? | ||
| It will depend on several things. | ||
| I ask that question just about myself, Art. | ||
| As much information as I have on this subject, I say to myself, if I'm truly honest, what would happen if I were sitting in my living room and a gray walked through the door, or through the wall, as they sometimes do. | ||
| I think I would be extremely alarmed, quite frankly, and that's despite all my information. | ||
| Um, I think that we have a very low tolerance for strangeness. | ||
| Now, that's not true of everybody, but I don't think I'm, you know, I don't think I'm particularly wimpy. | ||
| I really don't. | ||
| Yes, if we're on a close-in personal level, I think you're absolutely right. | ||
| But let me tell you something, Michael. | ||
| I deal with current events and news on my syndicated program every night. | ||
| I've done so for eight years. | ||
| The news has become almost, it's almost to the point where the American The citizen who's listening to the media is, I don't want to say burned out, but close. | ||
| It's as though every day the news tops itself with some spectacular, I call them head shakers, in which somebody goes in and blows up a whole bunch of people with an assault rifle or something. | ||
| In other words, the news, we're almost numb. | ||
| And if it were to suddenly come over the radio that the aliens have landed, I think that people would be able to take that sort of news delivered in that manner, but not the kind of thing that you just set up, not the scenario you set up. | ||
| If a gray walks through the wall, I think I'd react just the way you suggested you would. | ||
| Yeah, and I think you're right. | ||
| If it came across on the radio or the television as news, If a person were looking around and their immediate reality were unchanged, but the news was saying we got aliens on the White House lawn, or whatever nonsense they came up with, I think the initial reaction would be a lot of curiosity, a lot of wonder, a lot of... Everybody would turn on CNN to see it. | ||
| I think you're right. | ||
| Instead of cowering someplace, or becoming psychotic, or some other outlandish reaction. | ||
| I think you're right. | ||
| I think you're probably right about that. | ||
| The question would be, what next? | ||
| If saucers started to appear overhead, that might change things dramatically. | ||
| That would be a different story. | ||
| So that tells us, perhaps, just this little conversation, if it is an orchestrated thing, if there is a government cover-up, and if at some point they decide to make it public, I think you and I just decided the way they would do it. | ||
| Well, possibly. | ||
| It has occurred to me that they might actually do something like that to sort of break it to as gently as it were. | ||
| I think we have a real problem, though, because we know now that it's possible to show us on film absolutely anything. | ||
| In fact, we have such impressive powers of illusion now. I think in Las Vegas people know | ||
| this better than practically anywhere else in the world. The kind of stage magic which turns up | ||
| there gives a strong indication of what is possible when a guy like David Copperfield | ||
| literally jumps off the stage and starts flying around the room and you think, oh this | ||
| guy can't fly, but hey that There he is. | ||
| Well, there's still a lot of people, Michael, that think we never went to the moon. | ||
| The whole thing was done in a studio. | ||
| Absolutely right. | ||
| People do that. | ||
| Well, you know, my rejoinder to that is yes, and there are people who will tell you with shaking their fists that the world still is flat. | ||
| You know, the fact is, humans can believe anything, and some of the things they believe are truly outlandish, and this makes our job, when we're dealing with other realities, as Linda points out, it makes our job actually that much more complex. | ||
| I think we're right at the edge of having to admit that we are neither particularly well-prepared biologically, nor are we well-educated to take this jump. | ||
| And we really are going to have to stretch to do this. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Suppose you were, Michael, in the government, well aware that we've had contact for quite a while. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And the government wants to reveal it. | ||
| They say, listen, Michael, we want you to tell us the best way to do this with the least disruption. | ||
| Tell us your plan. | ||
| How do we reveal this to the American people? | ||
| What would you do? | ||
| Because they're probably going to come to somebody just like you. | ||
| Oh, boy! | ||
| It's a perfectly fair question, and I'm thinking here, holy Moses, this guy's got some tough questions. | ||
| What do you do, sit up all night thinking of me? | ||
| It's a very fair question. | ||
| What would we do? | ||
| Well, I think we would have to, first of all, ask people to sit tight for some very important information, and then walk them through Some historical background. | ||
| I think that's very important. | ||
| I think what happens right away is there's a breakdown in confidence. | ||
| And what the people want is confidence that whoever is talking to them actually has the quote-unquote answer. | ||
| Now that's going to be very tough. | ||
| And that has been a tough problem from the get-go, which is why I think the government has not done exactly what you say. | ||
| And why, frankly, I am not confident that they're going to any time soon. | ||
| Well, we do have the example, though, Michael, of the plutonium admissions. | ||
| I mean, we gave shots to American citizens of plutonium. | ||
| That's pretty incredible. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Now, the problem there, or let's say, the way they're getting away with this right now is they're able to say, yeah, but it wasn't us, and yeah, it's over, and yeah, after all, though it was morally disgusting, And medically unconscionable, maybe the damage wasn't so bad. | ||
| Now those are pitiful kind of excuses, but the fact is that the Clinton administration can get away with this because they remain above it. | ||
| They're above the fray. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So why not UFOs the same way? | ||
| Let me give you an example. | ||
| Representative Schiff in Albuquerque, it was front page Albuquerque News, is trying to get the GAO to reopen the investigation of Roswell, and in fact it looks like he may get it reopened. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Schiff thinks there's a cover-up. | ||
| I was in Schiff's office the other day talking with his aide, Mary Martinek, and Schiff, just for his own personal attitude, doesn't really think there's a UFO involved here. | ||
| What he's convinced of What is it? | ||
| There's a cover-up. | ||
| There's a cover-up. | ||
| Well, you see, cover-up is becoming almost, you know, like politically correct stuff to go after. | ||
| And I think Schiff had a lot of persuasion from his constituency. | ||
| I mean, down there in Albuquerque, every second person, you know, believes in Roswell or knows somebody who knows who was there, practically. | ||
| So it is interesting and very favorable that he's doing this. | ||
| I will be as interested as anyone, as interested as you, to see what the GAO actually turns up. | ||
| But frankly, I am not hopeful. | ||
| As I continue to look at the position the government would be in with this stuff, it seems to me that they are going to hold out as long as they can. | ||
| If the alien presence itself, if the activity of alien intelligence remains as ambiguous as it is at present, I do not expect our government to talk about it openly. | ||
| But that would be, I thought, well, there's a way they could begin opening up, sort of slowly, and say, well, yes, we're releasing some documents, or maybe Schiff manages to get hold of some documents, and it starts to look like Roswell really was something. | ||
| That would be a way to start releasing information. | ||
| Well, I agree. | ||
| I think Roswell is the ideal venue to do this, and if anyone's going to do it, this is a good way to do it. | ||
| I think we have to acknowledge where the real problems lie. | ||
| We live in a world today which is extremely shaky and many, many people are turning to very rigid belief systems to sort of protect themselves against the basic uncertainty of life. | ||
| What we see, above all, is a split between sort of rationalism on the one side and religious fundamentalism on the other. | ||
| And I think our government knows that where the real problem lies is in a very large and growing group of believers, not just Christians, but believers literally worldwide from various religious persuasions, who will see this as the absolute proof of the end time, and that is a formula for disaster. | ||
| I would think there would be a big difference, Michael, between two revelations, on the one aliens arriving in little saucers or something else from zeta | ||
| reticuli, another place, without any connection to our beginnings. On the other hand, | ||
| if it turns out that they would arrive and they are our genetic parents, | ||
| then it seems to me you've got something that if you reveal it is going to cause a complete breakdown. | ||
| Well... | ||
| Or nearly a complete breakdown. It would challenge every religious person out there. | ||
| I think the genetic connection or the possibility that we are actually related to these guys | ||
| is actually becoming one of the central issues of this whole business. | ||
| That'd bring the house down. | ||
| Well yeah, and of course that, as you've already pointed out, is a far cry from the possibility that one little saucer crashed in 1947. | ||
| I think that the people who are the true custodians of this UFO information may very well know or strongly suspect that that is the bottom line. | ||
| The bottom line is that we have a long-standing relationship with these guys. | ||
| It may even be genetically, but very likely culturally related to them in some way. | ||
| And it is. | ||
| It's a minefield. | ||
| Oh, look, I can tell you this. | ||
| If little guys landed and they claimed to be our genetic parents, and it seemed to rule out the possibility of the Creator as we understand and think of the Creator, there would be an army of people with guns that would fill the little green guys so full of lead, you wouldn't be able to tell what they were anymore. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| Um, and I think the all indications are that the aliens are in no hurry to reveal themselves and that that has been the only saving grace in our government's position. | ||
| That, that, that it happens, that there is a synchronicity. | ||
| I dare say not an agreement. | ||
| Some people say, oh, they're in cahoots. | ||
| Well, I'm not at all sure about that. | ||
| But let's say that there is a similarity of objective or a similarity of position in this one instance. | ||
| The aliens Well, if it's in the aliens' hands, then we really don't know. | ||
| not revealing themselves overtly, at least not in an organized way. | ||
| And the government is in no hurry to bring this out, as long as the aliens don't push the envelope. | ||
| I really do think that the timetable is in the aliens' hands. | ||
|
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Ha ha ha. | |
| Um, okay, what is the timetable, Michael? | ||
| Well, if it's in the aliens' hands, then we really don't know. | ||
| Now, we hear all kinds of guesses, and, you know, you hear them from the psychics, | ||
| you hear them from the channelers, you hear them from the abductees, | ||
| who are rather consistent in the things they're saying. | ||
| You hear it from ancient prophecy, you hear it from, you know, from... It's amazing. | ||
| It's coming from every corner of the company, that we are in the time zone. | ||
| We have entered the time zone. | ||
| Our lifetimes, Michael? | ||
| Our lifetimes? | ||
| A lifetime before the end of the decade. | ||
| That's really exciting. | ||
| That is the pronouncement you hear time and time again. | ||
| But I do not wish to associate my name with that as a prediction. | ||
| Only as a report of what others are saying. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Hang tough. | ||
| We've got news at the top of the hour. | ||
| We'll be right back. | ||
| My guest is Michael Lindemann. | ||
| There's more coming. | ||
| Stay right where you are. | ||
|
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From Jackie Gons' Plaza downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas. | |
| Good evening, everybody. | ||
|
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Welcome back to the second to the last Area 2000, the series. | |
| We will begin beginning February 27th. | ||
| A brand new series of programs, this time syndicated to be called Dreamland. | ||
| And we're all very much looking forward to the beginning of that. | ||
| I want to remind everybody that Linda Howe's book is going to be up for grabs in the morning, beginning at 9 o'clock, 9 a.m. | ||
| sharp. | ||
| And if you call the Bigelow Foundation and you're one of the first 50, you walk away with a $39.95 beautiful copy of Glimpses of Other Realities by Linda Howe. | ||
| The number to call at 9 a.m. | ||
| and not before is area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| That's area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| Please be careful with your dialing. | ||
| 06 that's area code 702 4 5 6 1 6 0 6 please be careful with your dialing back now | ||
| to Michael Linneman Michael Welcome back | ||
| I'm back. | ||
| Good to be here. | ||
| Yes, it's good to have you. | ||
| You really are a fun guest. | ||
| And by the way, I would love to have you on Dreamland, which is going to be a syndicated version. | ||
| Oh, I'm looking forward to that. | ||
| Arvind, congratulations on the new show. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| So, where are we? | ||
| Government cover-up. | ||
| You are convinced, Michael, are you not, there is a government cover-up? | ||
| I'm absolutely convinced. | ||
| In fact, it's one of the few things I think we can be absolutely dead sure of. | ||
| All right, that leads me then to say, how? | ||
| How are we dead sure of that? | ||
| Well, we certainly have a great deal of documentary evidence demonstrating that there has been, from at least 1947, a great many sightings of craft and various kinds of recoveries of wreckage and so forth. | ||
| The Air Force has been quite forthright about this. | ||
| If we look only at the most simplistic reporting, which came out of Blue Book, we can say unequivocally that the Air Force knows that UFOs exist, and yet the language which has come from the Air Force and from the government generally has persuaded our public that UFOs amount to nothing, Our utmost fuzzy lights in the sky mean nothing, and that anyone who sees a UFO is either a crackpot or a person of low IQ or low morality. | ||
| So we've got this language in our culture that UFOs are simply an off-limits subject. | ||
| Now that was an extremely carefully constructed pattern of disinformation, and the real construction of that disinformation began In the wake of Roswell, but it was formalized into policy in 1953. | ||
| We know this for a fact. | ||
| We have the documents. | ||
| When the Robertson Panel Report, commissioned by the CIA, reported to President Eisenhower that the public interest in UFOs was the biggest part of the problem, they wrote in their report that the President should institute a policy of debunking, and it was set in motion from that day forward. | ||
| debunking the tame policy of government under that term. | ||
| And that meant enroll educators and entertainers to help bring the message forward, | ||
| create movies and other images that helped create the proper flavor, which | ||
| is a flavor of absurdity and ridiculousness and triviality. | ||
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And that has persuaded a whole generation of people. | |
| Yeah? | ||
| I think you'd be extremely impressed with the quality of this effort when I recognized myself to be a victim of this, of the success of this operation, that I could live 44 years as a ramblin' veteran on any number of types of patients and be absolutely unaware that there was anything to this subject. | ||
| Shocked the daylights out of me when I first figured it out in 1989. | ||
| And I know that there are millions of people across this country and across the world who are still in that position of denial because they've been trained from birth that this is the way it should be. | ||
| And believe me, that is a cover-up. | ||
| Who do you think knows the truth? | ||
| Does President Clinton, every time he stands up in front of us, know what's going on? | ||
| Does he know all this is happening? | ||
| I mean, who knows? | ||
| We have indications that every president since Truman has been briefed to an extent, but I have no reason to believe that Clinton is particularly well briefed. | ||
| I would imagine, and this is only a supposition, that President Bush was much better briefed because there are indications he was in on the secret from very early on, from the early to mid-fifties perhaps, and particularly because he served briefly as director of the CIA And had other strong connections to the intelligence community, he would have that kind. | ||
| Okay, what I'm trying to get to is where is this held, do you think? | ||
| It is held in compartments throughout the military intelligence and the civilian intelligence community, but it is so highly compartmentalized that I do not believe more than a handful of people in this country really have direct access to all the information. | ||
| We instituted, in the wake of World War II, a new kind of institutional secrecy. | ||
| The compartmentalization of top-secret material so that need-to-know became a kind of lock and key mechanism. | ||
| And even if you held the highest top-secret clearance that we have, Art, there would be many secrets to which you were simply not Well, the big war cry, Michael, has always been, look, our government is lousy at keeping secrets. | ||
| But I think the recent revelations about the plutonium and all the rest of that put that one in the dirt. | ||
| Because in fact, they did keep that horrible little secret until they decided to release it. | ||
| Quite frankly, one of the best pieces of disinformation they ever put out on it was that the government can't keep a secret. | ||
| That's just one of the wonderful ways the public is persuaded. | ||
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The public doesn't have proof. | |
| I think we just have proof that they can keep a secret. | ||
|
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We absolutely can keep a secret. | |
| And I don't think... I'd like to try to have another proof that they can keep a secret, which I think would give me a lot of peace of mind, but we won't. | ||
| Just last November, we commemorated the 30th anniversary of the death of President Kennedy. | ||
| And millions of words, once again, were written on the tragedy of that day. | ||
| And what we will show, once again, is that the prevailing wisdom The death of President Kennedy is just plain absurd. | ||
| We have lived 30 years from that day in the greatest tragedy in American history, and we do not know the truth. | ||
| Now, everyone listening probably has their pet theory, and some of those theories may well be true, but the fact is that the public conversation about President Kennedy's death remains absolutely confused and murky and unclear. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| It is shot through with disinformation. | ||
| If you don't think we can keep it secret, ask yourself, why have we never learned what actually happened? | ||
| Well, that is a mission of disinformation, isn't it? | ||
| In other words, they pile on. | ||
| For example, with Kennedy, if somebody stepped forward and had a dress down and said, here's the absolute truth, here it is. | ||
| You know, one of the answers is, it'd be to render a theory. | ||
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I was absolutely right about the beauty of this information. | |
| You know, what if the Church would put it like this? | ||
| When the Countess and President arrived at that point in time, okay, the man, of course, as the leader of the Third World War, who knew that the stakes were high, and I think that those are exactly the stakes we're talking about, and they are the stakes with respect to the UFO question, if indeed our supposition | ||
| is correct that UFOs have the capacity in their very existence | ||
| to topple what we mean by consensus reality, by God those are high stakes, and yes they will tell every kind of lie | ||
| imaginable. | ||
| Well, one way I think I would do it if I were in the disinformation game would be, Michael, I'd stage some incredibly, | ||
| seemingly viable incident and I would let the world focus attention on it for a | ||
| little while and then I would show it to be a hoax. | ||
| And then, worldwide, people would throw up their hands. | ||
| And they'd say, boy, what a bunch of junk, and they'd mentally dismiss it. | ||
| That's how I, uh, that's the way the government has been able to label the Davidians as crook people, and, uh, and just, uh, allow the Americans to mentally dismiss it, a bunch of crazy crook people. | ||
| Uh, they can lay labels on things, and that kind of disinformation, uh, campaign would be very very uh terrible. | ||
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That's very interesting. | |
| I mean, we could possibly have done the same thing I've done in 1993. | ||
| We're going too far in the middle. | ||
| But it takes a professional paperback of knowledge to look at the phenomenon and realize that | ||
| those two jokers couldn't possibly have done it. | ||
| And yet, we do know that there have been some hoaxes and even they have done some hoaxes | ||
| but some people more clever than they have done other hoaxes, which are quite impressive. | ||
| The fact is, the press wanted desperately to blow this thing away because it was just a very nagging mystery, and they jumped on this flimsy, foolish story with glee, and they festooned it across the English-speaking world. | ||
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I saw it in papers literally from all over the country, front-page stuff. | |
| My lord, we would kill to get that kind of a story about a genuine UFO. | ||
| You know, front out two drunken jokers who say they've made a few crop circles and you get everyone writing front page stories. | ||
| It's unbelievable. | ||
| But the fact is that the press, if I may say so, meaning no disrespect to the press, but the press is in effect a tool of consensus reality. | ||
| That is very much their job. | ||
| And we saw a perfect example, but I think we can do that with UFOs and actually it poses a danger because I think we can use it as a manipulative tool if the government feels that they need to put some sort of a spin on UFOs for political advantage. | ||
| I have been warning in my lectures that that is one of the great dangers of dealing with this subject on the confused level | ||
| that it is. | ||
| Alright, so now let me hit you with a really rough one, Michael. | ||
| Suppose that I represented the government entity that knew all this was going on. | ||
| And because of the work you do, I came to you and I said, look, the reality is, yes, | ||
| we're in contact, yes, they are our genetic ancestors. | ||
| And I'm sure you would agree, Michael, wouldn't you, that that information cannot get out | ||
| right now, that it would be very, very damaging and there would be worldwide strife and we'd | ||
| likely, in all likelihood, end up with anarchy. | ||
| Therefore, we would like to enlist you to help us. | ||
| What would you do if you got such an offer? | ||
| Of course, that was the dilemma that was posed very well, I thought, in that television program, Intruders, on the CBS network in 1992. | ||
| Same idea. | ||
| And as a matter of fact, some real live UFO investigators have been approached in very much that way. | ||
| Jacques Vallée is one of them, who has actually been approached in more or less that way. | ||
| To be perfectly honest, I think I would turn the offer down, Art, and I don't think I'd have a terribly hard time doing it. | ||
| And I'll tell you why. | ||
| Because I think that at bottom, it's an extremely cynical offer. | ||
| I think our government is absolutely optimistic. | ||
| But here, let me convince you. | ||
| We do have contact with these aliens. | ||
| We're proceeding. | ||
| There will come a time when we can tell, but not right now. | ||
| It would be dangerous for them. | ||
| Dangerous for us. | ||
| Many people would die. | ||
| There might be riots. | ||
| Mr. Lindemann, we really need your help. | ||
| All of those are suppositions, and yes, indeed, there may be some risks involved. | ||
| However, I think where a government has failed miserably is in giving people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually capable of dealing with this. | ||
| Sooner or later, they're going to have to try it. | ||
| The government does not have an easy way out, and all you're really telling me here is that they are looking for another way to buy more time. | ||
| If the government did come to me, that would be my signal that I'm actually Rattling their cage and quite frankly art. | ||
| That's fine with me. | ||
| I think American people Deserve to know and are capable of taking it. | ||
| I have much more faith. | ||
| All right, then All right, then let's move on suppose you refused it as you just suggested you would yes Would you what would you then do would you go to the press and you would you tell your story? | ||
| Would you blow the whole thing wide open? | ||
| Well, I'm not sure if I'm not sure if that would actually work, because clearly, if they came to me in that fashion, they would know that they had perfect deniability. | ||
| So I don't think I would have any grand leverage at that point. | ||
| Well, you would have, though, a lot of hard information, and how could you continue doing what you're doing without telling that story? | ||
| Oh, I would probably tell that story, yes, but not with any great hopes of toppling the government or making a huge splash. | ||
| I could make up that story right now. | ||
| Suppose I said, fine, you go public with this, and A, nobody is going to believe you, and B, we're going to ruin you. | ||
| Actually, that would be highly believable. | ||
| That they could ruin me is beyond dispute. | ||
| If they choose to, yes. | ||
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If they could do that. | |
| Would that stop you? | ||
| Would that stop me from staggering on camera? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Yeah, it probably would. | ||
| That's a good answer. | ||
| I think what we're really after here, Art, is simply continuing the education process. | ||
| I believe that the people are meant, in this nation at least, to lead the government, not the other way around. | ||
| In a national security state, which regrettably we have become, The government takes upon itself to lead the people, but that's backwards, and it is not meant to be. | ||
| I really do believe that education is the answer. | ||
| Thomas Jefferson said exactly that. | ||
| He said, if the people are not well informed enough to make good decisions, then by God, inform them. | ||
| Do not make their decisions for them. | ||
| Well, this is a little off topic, but not far, um, because it relates to where we're headed, Michael. | ||
| A lot of people think we're headed for a police state, virtually a police state. | ||
| And, uh, the indications are that we have gun control bearing down hard on us at the moment. | ||
| We have crime that's so far out of control that the government, uh, uh, just about must respond. | ||
| Where is this going? | ||
| If you look down the road, uh, with present trends continuing unabated, where are we going, Michael? | ||
| Well, I happen to feel that most of the efforts of our government are genuinely well-meant. | ||
| And though I don't want to sound too partisan, I actually have high hopes that President Clinton will continue along the path of demonstrating that he is actually a man of genuine intelligence and goodwill. | ||
| By no means a perfect politician. | ||
| I don't think that he exists. | ||
| But I think we do have a chance of doing better than we've been doing. | ||
| I do not, frankly, subscribe to the notion that we're headed for a police state. | ||
| I do, however, know for certain that we are headed for a world of grave instability and even the best government faced with instability on a grand scale becomes extremely defensive, paranoid, and sometimes dangerous. | ||
| We're not immune to that. | ||
| I think that the American people, in terms of growing up, have to recognize that all around the world Societies are being shaken to their roots. | ||
| My Lord, we just saw the second greatest superpower on the planet disintegrate. | ||
| And if we think we're immune, we're dead wrong, and we're putting ourselves in grave danger. | ||
| But I would not pin it on the government to say that they're the problem, and they're the enemy. | ||
| Not at all. | ||
| They're being reactive, Michael, but the present trends in society, particularly with violent crime, are horrendous and the government's going to be forced to respond to that and it's going to be with uh... over possibly uh... in some occasions with some point i mean we could have cities out of control uh... you could imagine that uh... in fact uh... some of our inner cities right now michael are almost out of control their sort of uh... of anarchy or almost anarchy i agree with that now the question is you know uh... is is is the government | ||
| To blame, or is there any way the government can actually respond? | ||
| I happen to think the government does not have a lot of options, and actually they look very insecure and very inadequate to the task. | ||
| We're in for some very tough times here, Art, and yes, to some degree, the government will probably be tempted to crack down very, very harsh. | ||
| But I think the real difference is here, in terms of philosophy or worldview, Is the government populated by people who are genuinely evil and kind of power mongers, or is it populated instead with quite ordinary, average people who have chosen the path of government as their job? | ||
| And who are faced with horrendous challenges. | ||
| Yes, that generally would be my view. | ||
| I choose the latter view. | ||
| That does not actually make for a prettier picture in the short run. | ||
| We must face the fact that things are going to get very, very dicey. | ||
| And if you throw aliens in that, it's crazy. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Okay, now I want to do that. | ||
| I want to throw aliens into it. | ||
| At some point, in a disintegrating social structure, would the revelation of an alien presence be Possibly unifying if things were really rough? | ||
| My belief is that they will hope against hope that that will be its function. | ||
| And that makes their job of handling the aliens so very, very delicate. | ||
| Because aliens can either tip us over the cliff, or they can be the linchpin that pulses together. | ||
| And I do believe that if the story actually comes from the government, it will be a calculated effort to unify behind this enormous new reality. That's the only thing I can imagine | ||
| that they would try to do. | ||
| Would you suppose we'd be unifying because of the information or because of a perceived threat? | ||
| Well, I don't... I think the threat angle is going to be handled... have to be handled very, very carefully. | ||
| If they simply told the bald-faced truth about, for example, our military capability as against the aliens, that is a formula for disaster, because our military capability is zero. | ||
| We have no capability against them. | ||
| And we've known that for 40 years, which is probably the biggest nightmare we've got, in terms of telling a good story. | ||
| But the question is, is there a military threat? | ||
| And the answer may well be there isn't. | ||
| There have been several assessments down the years, starting back with the Robertson Panel Report, where they have said, and they've said this several times since, there does not appear to be a military threat. | ||
| And therefore, the question is, are we actually not threatened by destruction so much as we are threatened by strangeness? | ||
| We are threatened by beliefs that don't hold up against this. | ||
| The reason I mention this is several times during his presidency, Ronald Reagan referred to the possibility that humanity or the world would be unified because of some external threat or alien threat. | ||
| He did say that. | ||
| In fact, I think he said it at least five times in various public venues. | ||
| And people have held that up and said, isn't it puzzling that Reagan would say such a thing? | ||
| Well, maybe it is, maybe it is not. | ||
| It might have just been a figure of speech. | ||
| The fact is we don't know if there was any grand design behind this. | ||
| But I think the sentiment does speak to a probable reality. | ||
| We are in this position where if we remain As divided as we are, we are going to slowly self-destruct, and there are many people who know that. | ||
| And there are some people who think that the real interest of the aliens in this planet is to see what the silly old humans are going to do. | ||
| That maybe this is just a fascinating little corner of the universe right now, because these humans, with really great capability and great promise, are right on the edge of not being able to make up their mind whether they want to live or die. | ||
| I really do think that that's one way of typifying the condition on this planet. | ||
| And maybe there are aliens who are just here to get their licks while they're getting good. | ||
| Maybe there are some who are standing by to see if they can lend a hand or step in if it gets absolutely catastrophic. | ||
| But all of that is wild supposition. | ||
| The fact is, if we look only at the human situation, we are right on the edge. | ||
| Between being able to move into the 21st century with terrific momentum and terrific promise, or kind of teetering off the cliff and just going... Kind of like the Bills in the second half. | ||
|
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Right! | |
| Right! | ||
| You know, bombing ourselves back to the Stone Age, as it were. | ||
| I think anyone in government today has taken on the most thankless, difficult task they possibly can. | ||
|
unidentified
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It's a nightmare. | |
| Would you... | ||
| Would you, if you were in government, would you want to have it? | ||
| Would you want to be deciding what to do about all this? | ||
| I suppose you would, actually. | ||
| You spend all your time thinking about the future and about this sort of thing, so... My presumption is that you would want the task if it were given to you. | ||
| My philosophy of politics would have to be to trust the people to rise to the occasion. | ||
| I do not believe we have any other viable I cannot say that strongly enough, and that is why I am absolutely in favor of full disclosure. | ||
| It must be done with wisdom and with care. | ||
| You can't just throw it like a cream pie. | ||
| But we cannot afford to allow people to languish in non-information, disinformation, and just sort of wild misapprehension about what's occurring. | ||
| People know things are going on, Art, and the longer we don't tell them, the less trust they will have. | ||
| Our trust in government today is at an all-time low. | ||
| It is, yeah. | ||
| Frankly, that mistrust is absolutely appropriate and well-deserved. | ||
| Government has no right to expect the people to trust them the way they have been behaving. | ||
| But at any moment, a government can say, all right, clean slate, we're going to start again to trust the people. | ||
| And because we will trust the people, the people can decide whether to trust us. | ||
| I don't think we have any other choice. | ||
| It's going to get very ugly if they don't take that step. | ||
| Present trends noted. | ||
| Are we, in your opinion, headed to the end of this century? | ||
| You gave two possibilities. | ||
| One that we go over and we learn and we progress and we prosper. | ||
| And the other that we fall down and fail at the last moment. | ||
| What would you have to predict right now? | ||
| Truth is, it's a It's a toss-up. | ||
| All my indicators are that it is absolutely a toss-up, but I am, you might say, wired for optimism. | ||
| I do believe we will pull it out, but by the skin of our teeth. | ||
| It's going to be very scary, and there's going to be a lot of damage. | ||
| It's going to be a close one. | ||
| Alright, Michael Lindemann, hold on for a moment while we ID. | ||
| Be right back to you. | ||
|
unidentified
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From Jackie Gons Pleasure Downtown, this is KDWA. | |
| Fascinating discussion this morning. | ||
| This evening. | ||
| Sorry about that. | ||
| I work five days a week, same morning, hard to say evening, one day a week. | ||
| Michael Lindemann is my guest. | ||
| He looks into the future, and he's doing that for us this evening. | ||
| Michael, are you there? | ||
| Sure, sir. | ||
|
unidentified
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Good. | |
| Well, at least you're optimistic about it. | ||
| I'm happy to hear that. | ||
| An awful lot of the people that I've talked to that have gone down the road you and I just went are not that optimistic. | ||
| And some of them predict very dire, terrible things. | ||
| I will choose to hope that's not true and that you're right. | ||
| Do you really conclude that, based on present trends, if you only had to read our future, based on present trends, would you be optimistic, or is your optimism born of the fact that there will be a miracle, we'll pull ourselves out, just general optimism? | ||
| No, I don't, I'm not, I'm not counting on miracles. | ||
| I really do think it's up to us. | ||
| However, I do think that there is, first of all, a gigantic resilience in the basic forms | ||
| of life on this planet, including human life. | ||
| People discover when they are in their worst condition just how much they can take, and | ||
| it is constantly amazing what people can take. | ||
| But what I think we must recognize is the amount of destruction that can come from our | ||
| unwillingness to get serious, the amount of destruction is truly awesome, and it is coming. | ||
| All the trends are very ugly. | ||
| So we must, you know, sit up, take stock, pay attention, and get down to business. | ||
| Would you like to see a great public uprising demanding to know the answer on UFOs? | ||
| If that could be generated, would you think it's a good idea? | ||
| Yes, I would. | ||
| I think symbolically it's extremely important, and I think it can actually happen. | ||
| In a certain sense it is occurring, and it's occurring at a very small scale now, but it's beginning to build. | ||
| But I think it goes further than that. | ||
| I think that the idea of revealing the truth about the alien presence is extremely important, but I think, too, we have to reveal the truth about a great many other things. | ||
| Our government has become so used to operating in a caretaker and paternalistic capacity | ||
| that they have forgotten how to actually follow the lead of the people. | ||
| We have to redo the American constitutional framework. | ||
| We don't need a new constitution. | ||
| I think it's very important for people to understand that our constitution is just fine, | ||
| but we have to get back to doing it the way it was written. | ||
| As for the alien business, I do think that it's going to strongly restructure, above | ||
| all, our religious beliefs. | ||
| And it's going to take a tremendous amount of wisdom and patience and forbearance to get through that little upheaval. | ||
| It's going to be quite nasty. | ||
| Well, I just can't imagine how you would get around that. | ||
| There would be people who would respond with anger and violence and every manner of disruptive behavior you can conjure up. | ||
| I just know it because I talk to these people all the time. | ||
| You're absolutely right. | ||
| That's the best we can hope for, Art, and I don't think... The question is, how long can you put it off, and is that your only option, putting it off, putting it off? | ||
| As a matter of fact, I do believe that our government has seen it that way. | ||
| That that is why we've heard nothing, because they see no option between putting it off, on the one hand, and that kind of uncontrollable chaos on the other. | ||
| So, I think people have to recognize that they have the capacity Yes, I agree with you. | ||
| And I agree that's the direction it would go. | ||
| the path of least resistance into their fear, into their reactivity, then things get extremely | ||
| ugly right away. | ||
| And that is what makes this subject so troublesome. | ||
| Yes, I agree with you. | ||
| And I agree that's the direction it would go. | ||
| So then I conclude a reasonable person could be talked into continuing this until some | ||
| way could be devised to do it in some way that wouldn't disrupt everything. | ||
| That is right. | ||
| And that is exactly what has been done. | ||
| But I think there has been, however, forward movement in the fact that human beings can be gradually acclimatized to practically anything. | ||
| And I think that that is the state we are currently in. | ||
| Although, if you threw it at us right away like a live grenade, you know, there'd be violence in every direction, as it is coming out, step by step, little by little, we are laying the groundwork for more complete revelations in the future. | ||
| And that is why I, who speak, you know, with a certain amount of criticism about the government and about the government handling of things, I regard myself, Art, as loyal opposition. | ||
| I believe I am serving a function which is in a certain relationship to the government's function of resisting revelations. | ||
| I'm saying, look, we must reveal, we must reveal this is real, and what we get is a dynamic tension which moves the social conversation forward. | ||
| And I do believe that that is happening all over the country. | ||
| But what we must do to make it work is To up-level the credibility of the UFO argument itself, so that we have more people of the quality of a Linda Howe, for example, who does the extraordinary fieldwork and brings a very high degree of integrity and rational effort to the subject. | ||
| Alright, you've read her book. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yes. | |
| How do you think it's going to be greeted, since it represents a lot of documentation, how's it going to be greeted in the scientific community, do you think? | ||
| Well, um, it's interesting because one of the people that you showed it to was an eminent scientist who took it very, very seriously. | ||
| He was not at all predisposed to believe this stuff, but when he looked at it, he said, uh, my lord, this is, you know, this is very impressive and it's very depressing, he said, in effect. | ||
| That wasn't the exact word, but he said, this gives me the impression of a very unfriendly universe. | ||
| Well, but I think what that points up is that it is profoundly impressive and will indeed cause people to stop and look and assess. | ||
| Now Linda was quite shocked as a matter of fact when this man, I believe, I don't want to be out of line here, but I think it was Fred Allen Wolf who did that, Linda was quite I was dismayed, actually, that Dr. Wolf's assessment was that this demonstrated, you know, a kind of a malignant kind of force operating in the world. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| But I think we have to recognize that the material is viscerally very, very agitating. | ||
| I mean, it's difficult stuff, even if the agency that is actually causing it is benign. | ||
| We know so little. | ||
| We are so new at this. | ||
| Barely out of the cradle on this one. | ||
| But if you look at her book carefully, and you read the documentation, I understand how he came to that conclusion. | ||
| There are things that are very difficult for us. | ||
| Sexual organs removed from animals. | ||
| I don't need to go through the list. | ||
| You know what it is. | ||
| And a lot of it does seem, frankly, very disturbing. | ||
| I mean, would friends do that? | ||
| Not necessarily, but again, If we look at what we have done in the name of testing, you know, a popular cosmetic, not to mention what we've done in the name of feeding ourselves and one another, we would have to say that the aliens have nothing on us in terms of butchery, in terms of grotesque behavior, in terms of what would appear to be gratuitous grossities. | ||
| Humans have written a book on that subject and we must never forget that, that nothing we have seen, not the worst possible thing we have seen, from the presumed alien side is any worse than average day-to-day human behavior. | ||
| But if it does turn out to be negative, and if there was a revelation, and it was a negative revelation, that we had something to fear, that we represented basically food or something awful like that to them, then wouldn't we get a war of the worlds sort of reaction? | ||
| Yes, we would. | ||
| And I think we have to be very, very careful not to jump to those conclusions. | ||
| I think that we Frankly, I don't think that's what's going on. | ||
| Now, the perception of that is easily put out, and there will be demagogues. | ||
| I mean, this is the kind of thing that a fanatic of any kind grabs onto and says, you know, waves it in people's face and says, you see, they're here to eat you, or they're here to carve up your children in small chunks. | ||
| That kind of nonsense. | ||
| And there will certainly be people who do that. | ||
| There are people who are doing it now. | ||
| I really don't believe the evidence suggests that at all. | ||
| I think what the evidence suggests is a profound mystery which requires that we be much more conscious and much more discerning, much more sophisticated to even grasp the nature of what we're looking at. | ||
| If we would accept this as a challenge to grow rather than as a reason to fear, we would be miles ahead, and God willing we will do that. | ||
| Well, God willing we will. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| If I were to ask you for the date by which all of this might occur, or consciousness, the dawn of consciousness about the presence, might finally collectively reach some crescendo and everybody says, aha, yes, it is true, there is something to this, they are here, that kind of a slow building revelation, you think that might occur before the turn of the century? | ||
| Well, I can only offer a guess. | ||
| What I say is there's a tremendous momentum occurring. | ||
| And all the people who are, you might say, casting prophecies seem to be in general agreement that we have reached that period of time when something has to give, it has to happen. | ||
| So I would say yes, by the end of this decade we are going to know a lot more than we know now. | ||
| Well then it's going to be a very exciting time to be alive, isn't it? | ||
| Kidding. | ||
| Yeah, absolutely right. | ||
| Although you also have to imagine, Michael, what about this question? | ||
| Each generation, particularly the ones that usher in a new century, probably start saying exactly this sort of thing as you approach the millennium. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| Millennial expectations are... I mean, the human mind is capable of a great deal of fabrication. | ||
| Oh, yes. | ||
| Grandiose suppositions kind of run off the tongue like water. | ||
| Whenever I make a serious statement like that, I have to back up and say, hey, you know, I could be completely full of it, or let's face it, you know, and none of us should get up on our high horse and say it's going to happen, you know, on August 10th, 1995, or any kind of nonsense like that. | ||
| In other words, don't sell the house and get ready to greet the visitors. | ||
| That is correct. | ||
| But we have to look at trends and probabilities. | ||
| I think the trends are strong. | ||
| I think the probabilities are relatively high. | ||
| Uh, but, right. | ||
| If you're talking about changing your bank accounts or something, you know, hold your horses. | ||
| All right, what I would like to do is open the telephone lines, Michael. | ||
| Would you be up for that? | ||
| Certainly. | ||
| All right, it's a short segment. | ||
| Stand by just one second, Michael. | ||
| Michael Lineman is my guest. | ||
| He's a futurist, and he's a fascinating guy. | ||
| If you'd like to speak with him, let's do it. | ||
| In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, the number is 383. | ||
|
unidentified
|
8255. | |
| 8255. | ||
| If you're calling from outside the state, our toll-free number is 1-800-338-8255. | ||
| 8255. | ||
| The wildcard lines, area code 702-385-7214. | ||
| Outside the state, our toll-free number is 1-800-338-8255. | ||
| 8255. | ||
| The rile card lines, area code 702-385-7214. | ||
| And then, of course, finally, if you have never called the program, | ||
| we have a first-time caller line at area code 702-385-7213, 7213. | ||
| And if you're ready, Michael Lineman, are you ready? | ||
|
unidentified
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Yes. | |
| All right, here they come. | ||
| Rile card line 3, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Michael Lineman. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good evening. | |
| Good evening, Mike. | ||
| How are you? | ||
| Hello. | ||
| I find your conversation about paradigm shifting rather fascinating this evening. | ||
| Michael, um... | ||
| I was wondering if you're familiar with some of the writings of Carl Jung on this subject | ||
| and also French astrophysicist Jacques Vallée. | ||
| Yes, I am. | ||
|
unidentified
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How do you feel about, you know, with Jung's feeling that it's this transition period going | |
| into a new age and it's actually psychic phenomena that we're experiencing and Vallée, who | ||
| you're aware of, thought it was some sort of paradigm shifting mind control type thing | ||
| done by those who oversee the world. | ||
| Right, well, now you've raised a very interesting question. | ||
| Valet is one of several people who has suggested that all of this represents what he calls a control system, and that the control system is actually being operated by the beings we call alien. | ||
| He's not at all convinced, by the way, that those beings are flesh and fluid creatures like ourselves, but they may be operating at a different level of reality. | ||
| He's very open to the concept of extra-dimensional beings, parallel universes and so forth, and Once you start talking about that, you get into a realm where the language of Jung may be virtually, you know, just a modification on the same theme. | ||
| We have only lately begun to become familiar and comfortable with the concept of parallel universes and other dimensions. | ||
| But one thing's for sure, when Linda Howe says, other realities, she is opening up the door to all of that. | ||
| And we are, I think, looking at more than a 3D event here, an event that is simply physical like ourselves. | ||
| No, we're really dealing at a realm where the human mind is challenged to rethink itself entirely. | ||
| And all bets are off as to just exactly what the limits of reality may be. | ||
| This is the thing that's the hardest of all. | ||
| We're very used to, you know, thinking in terms of I agree. | ||
|
unidentified
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I experienced something this fall. | |
| Linda Howe was talking about green balls of light flashing across the sky in January in Colorado. | ||
| There was a large sighting in Salt Lake City. | ||
| I'm surprised it didn't make the news back in September. | ||
| and I was up in Park City, Utah and they saw it for miles coming across the mountains and | ||
| it was sighted by numerous people and also by the planetarium in Salt Lake City. | ||
| I felt it was just a weird feeling after seeing it because it didn't look like anything that | ||
| was of a meteor or anything of that nature. | ||
| Well, events like that are being reported all over the world and of course with as little | ||
| to go on as what you've just reported, we'd say on the one hand it was profoundly impressive | ||
| but on the other hand profoundly mysterious. | ||
| We don't know what it was, but we have to accept the possibility that we're right at | ||
| the edge of redefining reality and that is what we mean by paradigm shift because reality, | ||
| the way we've structured it and agreed about it, that doesn't work anymore. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Unfortunately, with paradigm shifts, there's also a lot of social turmoil that goes on, and it's just a shame that we're going to have to go through it. | |
| All right, Collar, we've got to leave it there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Thank you. | |
| Good evening. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| That was a good call. | ||
| All right, on the first time, Collar Lyon, you're on the air with Michael Lindemann. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi, Art. | |
| Good to hear from you in Waking Hours. | ||
| Where are you in Waking Hours? | ||
| Where are you calling from? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm calling from Carmel, California. | |
| I just picked up your show right now. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
In fact, I went looking for you when I went to the Union Plaza Hotel when I went to Las Vegas and couldn't find you at all. | |
| Well, we're here. | ||
| Trust me. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm sure your guest is most astute and really quite a bit on the ball, but it really doesn't matter if aliens are here or if they're not. | |
| What's the difference? | ||
| If they're here, they're already having an influence. | ||
| If they're not, then there is no influence for them to be had. | ||
| It all sounds like this bunch of long-winded talking to me. | ||
| Well, it's nice that you think I'm astute, but long-winded. | ||
| Okay, fine. | ||
| Actually, I think it matters quite a lot, because if aliens are not here, then we have what Carl Sagan calls a mass hallucination, which means that humans on a very large scale are imagining something quite coherent and quite distressing. | ||
| That has no external trigger. | ||
| Now, that in itself would prove to be at least a psychological phenomenon of great interest, if not great importance. | ||
| However, I do think the evidence is overwhelmingly strong that we have, in fact, an alien presence here, and quite frankly, the implications of that are very, very important, as we've been discussing. | ||
| If you're not convinced of that, then perhaps we would have to go a few more rounds with you, but it is not trivial. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Excuse me, Michael? | |
| You did mention the psychological impact of the belief that there are aliens already here and present and contributing to our society. | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| Well, if they're here, that's great. | ||
| We should find out who they are and get them to spill all the beans that they've got, you know, to tell. | ||
| Well, it's good that you, perhaps maybe they could Give us the final clue to perhaps fusion for unlimited power. | ||
| Well, one would hope that they can teach us a great deal. | ||
| If they are benign and willing to come forth, then perhaps you're right, and that'll be the upshot. | ||
| Unfortunately, there are some other... You seem to be very well adjusted with the possibility that this could happen. | ||
| Yeah, but these are non-trivial events that you're talking about, Caller. | ||
| You suggested it wouldn't matter. | ||
| If any of the things you just described were to occur, it would matter a lot, wouldn't it? | ||
|
unidentified
|
It doesn't matter at all, because if they're here, And they're having an impact and an influence on our society and our well-being and our level of understanding, then we're lucky. | |
| If they're not here, and it's just a mystery or a made-up thing that is mostly made up of psychological impact, as Michael says, well then it's just something that's generated and created by people's imagination. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Thank you very much for the call. | ||
| It's a remarkably well-adjusted point of view, isn't it? | ||
| Either that or pretty heavy-duty denial. | ||
| I'm not sure which one, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt. | ||
| You know, I have found that a lot of people, as we've discussed, respond with anger. | ||
| And I suppose what we might have just heard was a bit of controlled anger and denial? | ||
| Well, I don't want to analyze the guy. | ||
| Sort of a who cares? | ||
| There was kind of an internal contradiction in what he was saying. | ||
| I don't think it takes any proof at all to say that this would be important. | ||
| I mean, for example, if we go to the furthest extreme of what we talked about earlier, that we are actually someone else's lab experiment, I think that that has highly disruptive possibilities. | ||
| And the fact is, it's just barely possible that that may be. | ||
| Or we're in somebody else's pantry. | ||
| Yeah, right. | ||
| Line two, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Michael Lindemann. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Michael Linderman, I got three things, two of them to do with UFO. | |
| January 30th, 834 p.m., we had a mild quake here in Las Vegas, or motion. | ||
| The water in the toilet was moving, and the lamps were moving, and my little iron thingy that I have near my bed moved. | ||
| That was at 834, and when that happens, to that extent, usually they have a five Uh, at least a five in L.A. | ||
| Okay, on to the UFOs. | ||
| Uh, the Groswell incident is a very, very definite piece of information that should have been followed on by everybody that is in the scientific community and also, uh, don't forget there was ten to fifteen students, uh, on an outing. | ||
| Uh, looking for butterflies, or whatever it was, and found the UFOs first, and they were all, uh, shooed away. | ||
| Plus the other people that service the, uh, military, like carrying the UFOs off, supposedly, and so on, all of those people are beginning to die off, and I think that that Roswell incident should really be investigated with extreme vigor to whoever can afford it. | ||
| Do you think so? | ||
| I absolutely do think so, and I'm also happy to say that good work has been done. | ||
| Now, there will be a new book by Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt very soon on the Roswell Incident, which will break new ground. | ||
| I strongly recommend your eyes peeled for it. | ||
| In April, approximately, it will be out. | ||
| In July, approximately, the Showtime Network will air a two-hour special on Roswell, which I strongly urge people to be on the lookout for. | ||
| I've seen some of the advance footage, and I'm very impressed. | ||
| Do you know what the name of it is going to be? | ||
| I think it's just going to be called Roswell. | ||
| Roswell. | ||
| And I think people should know that it is a somewhat fictionalized scenario, but based very, very closely on known evidence. | ||
| Now, as for the fact that witnesses are dying off, you're quite right, caller, but there are more today still. | ||
| More than 30 living eyewitnesses, first-hand eyewitnesses to the wreckage and or the bodies. | ||
| And what we're trying to do now is arrange a way that these people can speak with impunity to the Congress. | ||
| Now, I'm also very encouraged by the work of Representative Stephen Schiff from the Albuquerque District of New Mexico, who has asked the Government Accounting Office to look into the allegations that the Pentagon has told of information on Roswell. | ||
| The GAO's first foray against the Pentagon Do you remember, Michael, when the whole Watergate thing unwound? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Is it not possible that this story could unwind much the same way and the foot in the door The break-in in the building, in effect, is Roswell. | ||
| Yes, that is just possible. | ||
| If there were any one case that could do it, Roswell would be it, no question. | ||
| And I have great hope that Roswell could do it. | ||
| Oh, by the way, I don't want to let this one get away. | ||
| There were connections and stories about Bobby Ray Inman, who was appointed nominee to be the defense secretary, and comments he had made About flying saucers. | ||
| And I'm curious how you view his very strange, very strange press conference dropping out. | ||
| You know, it's a mystery. | ||
| What can I say? | ||
| I thought his appointment was strange. | ||
| I was most interested to see what would come out in hearings, because Inman does have A reputation as something of a loose cannon, actually. | ||
| He's a quirky kind of character, although he's very well-connected. | ||
| It's hard to know why exactly, except that maybe his very deep, covert connection to some of these extraordinary realities gave him the impression that the heat he might take in the Senate during the confirmation would just be very, very Difficult and embarrassing. | ||
| And he took, in effect, the easy way out by making himself look like a fool. | ||
| But that's a guess. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| The man's mind is extremely twisted. | ||
| Alright, we're woefully short on time. | ||
| Let me try to get one more in here. | ||
| On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Michael Linneman. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Art. | |
| This is Fluff from Bonanza. | ||
| I have a question. | ||
| In Revelation it describes an evil force coming before Jesus, and I was just wondering what | ||
| the tradition is that UFO technology might be the vehicle for this evil force. | ||
| Alright, Michael? | ||
| Well, we're going to have to contend with a variety of prophecies of that sort. | ||
| Not only Christian prophecies, but prophecies from other traditions, which interestingly all seem to come to focus during this period of time. | ||
| I have no opinion on the ultimate truth of revelations. | ||
| What I do know is that many people are likely to see it in the way you have described it. | ||
| However, if I had to make a guess of my own, I would say, let us not assume that this is a sign of the end time. | ||
| I rather suspect it is not a sign of the end time, but rather a sign that we humans are, as we have done many times in the past, we are looking at a new A new take on reality. | ||
| Now this has happened before, and we've survived it before, and it has always had religious implications. | ||
| But for those of the faithful who need some reassurance, I personally feel, it's only my own testament if you will, That nothing that is happening today with respect to the UFO phenomenon, nothing at all, Mike, is going to change our basic relationship to deity. | ||
| All right, we've got to hold it there, Michael. | ||
| Our time is way up. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| You've been a pleasure to interview again, and I would like to interview you yet again on Dreamland coming up. | ||
| I look forward to it. | ||
| Michael Lindemann, thank you. | ||
| And I want to remind everybody, call tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. | ||
| to get a copy of Linda Howe's new book, Free of Charge. | ||
| It's normally going to cost you $39.95. | ||
| $39.95, but the first 50 people to call the Foundation will get a free copy at area code 702-456-1606, area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| Remember, to get Dreamland in your hometown, contact your radio station, whatever your local radio station is, even here in Las Vegas, and tell them you want them to carry Dreamland. | ||
| Take care until next week, everybody. | ||
| The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation. |
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