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Jan. 16, 1994 - Art Bell

01:35:15

Area 2000 with Art Bell - Dr John Altshuler - Animal Mutilations

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25:10

dr john altshuler

57:00

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh translated, we're going to talk about reincarnation and we have an incident in that area.
		Otherwise you would not have gone there in the first place.
		So you you would have heard that something was going on.
		I have no way of knowing how much you heard was going on, but clearly you went up there because you were personally interested, intrigued, wanted to find out more.
		And the way I look at this as I listen to you is that it frightened you or challenged you to the degree that you then turned around and blocked it out.
		Or in other words, you found more than you wanted to find.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can't say I found more than I wanted to find.
		I simply would put it another way, and that is that the intimidation and the fear effectively helped my memory last in detail.
		And I found what I found.
		Now, I can tell you, subsequent to that time, in the last few years, which only go back about four now, I have done additional studies that I am very cognizant of and I know very well.
		But to go back to 1967, I can't give you the details that I can from today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's probably one of the first examined animal mutilation cases in the country, and that's why I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that.
		And I'm glad I did.
		That's a remarkable thing to have done, Doctor.
		And so now I guess we can move forward a little bit.
		When did you come back to this whole, in other words, a number of years obviously elapsed when you not only didn't think about it, but actively blocked it out.
		And then at some point, you came back to it again.
		How did that happen?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		The period of time from that early situation to my getting back into investigational work was a period of 22 years.
		And during that period of time, I would vehemently deny or refuse to accept the notion that there was anything peculiar or possibly involved in extraterrestrial behavior that could account for anything that had happened on the Earth.
		Or I thought I was involved in.
		I just would say, hey, this is crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		22 years brings us to about 1989, and I think the beginning of your relationship with Linda Howe.
		Doctor, I must ID the radio station, so stand by just one moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		You're listening to Dr. Alchuler, who, by the way, is with us from his home in Englewood, Colorado, and we'll be right back to him.
unidentified		The End From Jackie Gonz Plaza downtown.
unidentified		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		It's Sunday evening.
		This is Area 2000.
		I'm Arthur.
		Dr. Al Schuler is my guest.
		He's done a lot of work in animal mutilation cases, a lot of modern work, and some a very long time ago, beginning with one of the first known examinations of a mutilated animal.
		On September 9th, 1967, now back to Anglewood, Colorado, and Dr. Alchuler.
		Doctor, we're back on the air again.
		Was I right?
		Is that about the beginning of your relationship with Linda Howe?
		Correct.
		I'm curious, how did Linda even know to come to you, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		She had heard, somewhat of a congruted tale, but without going into detail, she had heard that I, in fact, had been present to examine the horse lady in Alamosa 20 odd years before.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And that was really the beginning and the first relatively well-documented case of an animal death that had not been clearly ascribed to common or clearly explainable causes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So she came to you based on not too much more than a myth.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, she came to me having heard my name and having heard that I had been present.
		Yes.
		And she called me and she introduced herself as to her credentials and so on and what her interests were and I refused to see her, which was the right decision, I can tell you.
		Because at that time, my last desire was to be involved in any form of press, in any form, absolutely form.
		That was not my goal.
		I really like to remain in a low-profile situation and to do my work without fanfir, but just to do it quietly and to do it honestly and to report what I find.
		But anyway, she was persistent.
		And one day, she turned up in my driveway.
		Oh?
		And she said, look, I'd like to talk to you for a few minutes, just for a few minutes.
		And I felt obliged to be at least civil to her and invite her in my home, which I did.
		And we went down in the villarium in the house and sat down and began to talk.
		And we talked, I would guess, for about three or four hours.
		After a period of time, I felt a little bit more Comfortable with her, and was in fact convinced that Linda would not do anything to publicize anything that would be detrimental to me, to my work, my reputation, and so on.
		So I felt that I could trust her enough to be relatively candid, not completely so, but relatively calm, and relatively open, which I was.
		And at that time, we discussed the case in Alamosa in some depth.
		And after that, she had continued, in fact, she actually had made a television series several years before about the alien harvest kind of.
		She, I think, was well awarded for her work, which certainly deserved.
		She did an excellent job in it.
		And she was in the mode of continuing her investigation in the phenomenon.
		And therefore, asked if I would be of help to her if I could.
		And I decided in a quiet kind of way that I would try and see what I could do.
		And that's really how I got involved with her.
		And it began about four years ago, four and a half years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, how convinced are you that there is some or any connection between the animal mutilations, the ones you've examined, and the UFO controversy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or are you still very much in doubt about that and thinking about it?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you what I tell everyone.
		I will give you my findings.
		I will tell you objectively what I see.
		And then you are going to have to decide on your own what conclusion you come to.
		You have to decide completely on your own.
		In a situation where I am being questioned, as you have, to give an opinion publicly of what I believe and what the relationship may be with UFOs and cattle deaths and mutilation and so on, what I can tell you is that there are a number of findings that are very unusual.
		There are coincidental other situations that occur surrounding these deaths, which also are difficult, beliefs.
		And one can come to a logical conclusion in your own mind as to whether the relationship is a real one or not.
		I'm not about to tell you whether it is.
		That's up to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't blame you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And I can assure you that there are a number of findings that are really pretty unusual.
		They're pretty bizarre.
		And if we look at the findings that have occurred in these animals and found, there are a number of them that are very, very difficult to explain in terms of what we as people, enormously capable as we are in fact in that mode, are capable of doing.
		They're relatively well-known materials that simply would defy human capability.
		And the examples, or a number of them, would include, or I would include one, that these animals are found in a relatively trackless area.
		They're found out and found dead, you know, anywhere from 100 feet to several hundred yards or even miles from the nearest road or the nearest farmhouse or ranch home.
		And the animals are found without any track, vehicular tracks or human tracks of any kind.
		Even though the ground may be wet, it's difficult to understand how that happens, but it does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that typical, Doctor, more so than not, that they're found in every case?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I have checked in a number of cases where clearly the cause of death in the animal has been predator attack.
		I mean, it's obvious.
		It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Then there are other cases in which there simply is no explanation.
		The animals are found in a relatively, not absolute, but a relatively bloodless environment.
		An animal has a tremendous amount of blood, especially if you've got, if you have a cow or a bull, any of the cattle, the volume of blood is enormous.
		And to find them in a relatively bloodless field with the animals having been cut open is a very interesting event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing that a predator, as far as you know, could even do.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think, you know, a predator may drink blood for sure and tear the meat.
		But what a predator will do, as a rule, will be attracted to go to the soft portions of the animal, the underbelly, even the eye perhaps and so on, but they will tear the tissue.
		And generally the tissue will be quite ragged in the area of predator attack.
		It looks pretty clear to me that they gnaw and they tear.
unidentified		They don't make a bite with a sharp nerve.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't seem like a practical way to pass away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are there frequently more than one animal in these practical situations, whether way out in the middle of nowhere?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have there been multiple attacks, in other words, many dead animals, or typically one?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very commonly one or two, but there have been cases, for example, a case a number of years ago that Linda Howe described eloquently in her book, the Wyatt ranch where there were five animals that were almost around the hook, five of them, who were all dead, with similar kinds.
		In a relatively bloodless area, without stacks, with very similar types of figures that were company babies, when coin out, aranches, sometimes different styles,
		the cookie cutter type of figures that could be bent, and it looked like the cookie cutter that was round, that they stamped in the tissue and made a rather sharply defined cut, particularly around certain parts of the body, more frequently the anogenital area.
unidentified		And these are consistent.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		The findings at the border of the tissue show rather clearly that there's been a cut at a sharp border with significant heat because the changes are very typical heat.
		There's no question about that.
		That is microscopically very clear.
		You can tell that clearly by looking at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, tissue samples or even organs removed.
		A little of this, I suppose, for some of the audience is going to get a little gory, but I've got to ask, what about the cause of death of the animal?
		Is that or is the tissue taking the apparent cause of death of the animal, or has there been any investigation into that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's really a very good question.
		I wish I could give you an answer.
		I can't.
		I can only tell you that the incisions that have been made in some of the animals clearly could cause death.
		For example, in the horse that had been killed up in Alamosa, the part of the animal that had been denuded from tissue was in the neck and what we refer to as the mediastinum, a portion of the chest.
		And that clearly would cause an animal to die.
		But it was in a bloodless area, bloodless field, which really, to me, remains probably the single most enigmatic aspect of the entire event.
		The fact that there just isn't blood.
		Crackless, you can say, well, maybe somebody is very, very good and can cover up their cracks, exiting from the scene of the crime, so to speak.
		But how they take blood away is really enigmatic.
		Another very unusual finding and one that is consistent and seems to present itself many times is the denudation of tissue from bone.
		In other words, the removal of tissue from part of the skeleton, leaving the skeleton white and clean.
		Now, this isn't easy to do.
		If you try and mimic this with our own capabilities, it isn't easy to do.
		It's very hard to do.
		I can assure you that I have personal experience in trying to remove flesh from bone tissue to obtain skeleton parts for the purpose of studying and learning bone anatomy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you imagine a process that could accomplish that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Not anything that can be done in a matter of a few hours.
		I just can't envision it.
		It's taken me weeks to do it.
		And I mean weeks, of boiling bone with lye and vaping and cleaning and fanning saw.
		It's really not easy to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Doctor.
		I recall when I was very young, I had a project in school.
		I decided I was going to get a bird and boil its flesh away and take in its bone structure as a project for school.
		And I boiled that poor dead bird for so many hours until my mom finally made me stop.
		So I'm in sympathy with that.
		It's very difficult.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And yet, we find these animals within a relatively few number of hours, excuse me, perfectly alive, then dead, with clean bonus bones.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		That is an enigma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's another good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever run into a situation where an animal has had a tissue sample taken and did not die?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I personally have not, but they have been reported that some animals have remained alive for a short period of time.
		Now, I think Linda Howe has more first-hand knowledge in this area than I do.
		I have been called almost, well, virtually exclusively, after the fact, after the animals have been dead.
		And I have not had personal experience with live animals that have, in fact, been so-called, mutilated, or killed.
		And I think Linda could tell you about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Perhaps you can speak, though, to the samples that have been taken.
		From a medical point of view, is there any sense to the samples that have been taken?
		Can you ascribe any sense to the areas that the samples have come from, the size of the samples, or anything else medically?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, the size of the samples are all still uniform, especially when it involves the anogenical area with the genital organs frequently removed.
		The tongue is not infrequently removed.
		The ear, sometimes the eye may be nucleated and removed.
		The skin and the flesh along the jawbone, especially the maxilla, the lower jaw, it can be cleaned of flesh and white, glistening white, clean, absolutely clean.
		Speculation.
		I have heard people continuously and seem to be curious in their asking, could this be some kind of genetic research?
		Are aliens removing the tissues and using them for research?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Using them for nutrition.
		If that were the intent, doctor, would those samples be typical of what you would want for that sort of research?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		That also is a very difficult question to answer.
		And the only reason I say that, not that I'm trying to be evasive, is that the genetic code, which has been described for many years, you know, 30 years anyway, Watson and Creek did that eloquently a long time ago.
		And there's been a great deal of additional information in the last number of years, especially in the last few, regarding changes in the code.
		But nonetheless, the genetic code is uniform for tissue, be it from the eye, the rectum, anogenital area, chest.
		It doesn't really matter.
		Besides these particular areas, I don't know.
		One of the things that has been published, and I assure you, not with my name on it, has been that the dissection has been so accurate that it's been able to dissect between individual cells.
		I have never seen any evidence of it.
		I've never seen it.
		I don't know how, if it were to be done, it'd be great.
		It'd be a very interesting thing for me to see.
		I've never seen it.
		And I think the people that have propagated this unusual bizarre capability are looking for a very easy way to explain, well, this clearly is being done by alien technology because we don't have the technology to do it.
		True, we don't have the technology to do it, to dissect between individual cells.
		But I've never seen that.
		Why specific organs are taken around the atrogenital areas, the tongue, and the iron cell?
		Why these, I don't really know.
		The question can come up over and over and over again.
		Why is this going on?
		There really are a number of factors that we have to consider.
		Number one, is it, in terms of what we know as people, as investigators, could this in fact be predator?
		Secondly, could it be cult behavior?
		Thirdly, could it be some form of investigation or research being carried on by federal agencies for whatever purpose?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think you dismissed the predator theory pretty well.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		But not every case.
		There are plenty of them that are, in fact, considered to be due to unknown causes, and therefore people conclude alien interventions that are in fact predatory.
		There are a lot of them that aren't, in fact, Petron.
		I went down those streets and looked over and learned from them that they would be hard.
unidentified		Then the ones are culturally agreeing.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I am continually in the cost of trying to learn more about cults because I know precious little about them.
		And there isn't that much known about them, except the fact that when cult sacrifices take place, they generally go for two areas from what I've been able to learn.
		One of them is the heart.
		And the second are the sex organs, because it gives courage and special prowess for the cultist to be able to be involved in feeding or crazing the blood of the animal that is to sacrifice.
		But it seems to me that if cult behavior were involved in these situations, that they would have to do it very quickly, and certainly by now they would have been caught, and they never have been.
		They've been caught for sure, but our involved is an animal death and an animal killed, and they have been caught for some time.
		I know that to do it about a year ago, I received a call from, I think it was an investigative government who called me about animals in the English.
		Because you know, we have very little evidence that the phenomena takes the case, but three years ago, we found a group of people that were, I think, completely chosen, but it's costly, and it's going to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of interest, in that case, it is documented.
		Um, what manner of mutilation was there?
		Were you committed to that, Noah?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Why wasn't he?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be interesting to know if the same shot incisions would be applied each for you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was no evidence of teeth in what's been about the cold, but he caused a heat set, that heat cloud, that he was called here because he was interested and he was curious about the mutilation and he was being What part of the side of the ocean had any relationship to what the CSV was human?
		And these were clear-cut mutilations with flood all over the place.
		And you personally don't do a human dissection or something without having a lot of flood.
		That's not too government.
		I know that.
		If it is, I'd sure like to know how to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, probably not the cults then.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there may be a number of people, but what I'm really trying to come down to is how do you explain those that are not explainable?
		There are those that are killed by sacrifice.
		There are those that have been killed by electrocution.
		There are those animals that have been killed by predator, for sure.
		There are those animals that die of natural diseases by bloat and other infections or conditions that occur in cattle.
		What about those cases where none of these take place?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I take it then, in the last few years, you are frequently called when one of these comes up.
		You mentioned going once to Oklahoma.
		Do you generally get there far after the fact, too much after the fact, to come to good conclusions?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, sometimes it's very difficult.
		I can tell you there are a number of major problems involved with this entire investigational effort.
		The first one is that the ranchers and the farmers are rhetoric at best to tell anyone about this.
		It is an economic loss for these people, and you have to recognize that that is true, and that's a major factor for them.
		They're losing substantial amount of investment when they have an animal killed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm sure they have no interest in publicity over the matter at all.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		No interest in publicity.
		None, as a rule.
		They don't like to notify anybody, and when they do, they generally notify either one of two groups, either law enforcement group or veterinarians.
		Now, let us take the example of the law enforcement people.
		The law enforcement people come out and they say, well, you know, this animal is clearly killed by a predator.
		They are hesitant to look at any other circumstantial evidence that would suggest probably not predator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, any anything other than predator would probably necessitate some sort of further investigation.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		No, I will give you a case in court.
		I was called to see a case that was involved in a horse, actually, in a county north of Denver.
		The rancher called me, and I went to the College of Veterinary Medicine where the animal had been taken.
		I had a rather lengthy visit with the chairman of the department of the thought.
		And the only remains of that animal kept that I was allowed to see was the head.
		He brought the head out, and I examined the head, and I took tissue, and I found some interesting findings, which were including the finding of heat application at the margin of the jawbone, where tissue had been taken.
		And I asked the doctor, I said, could you tell me how you signed this case out after necropsy?
		And he said, well, this animal clearly died of volvulus, which is a condition where you get torsion or twisting of the bowel that can lead to bowel obstruction and can, in fact, lead to death.
		No question it can.
		And I said, well, would you mind showing me the slide so I could look at it?
		Because they're fairly typical when you have a valvulus and you have changes that are pretty indicative of that kind of catastrophic event in the bowel.
		And his reply to me was not unexpected.
		Well, we incinerated the animal.
		We didn't take him slide.
		And I said, well, why not?
		Because in my experience, I always take position, always, to try and establish what I see with my eyes in gross examination to substantiate the gross examination by the microscopic evaluation as well.
		And his reply to me was, we didn't need to.
		We saw that the animals died of falvulus, torsion of the bowels, and there was no need to take microscopic or take sections for microscopic evaluation.
		Now that would surprise me a little bit from a neophyte veterinary pathologist.
		But it shocked me coming from the chairman of the court.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you talk to somebody like that, do you, in essence, hear an echo of your own self in 1967?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Unquestioned.
		Absolutely.
		I think you hit the nail squarely on the guy that you're asking why.
		It's a threat.
		Let's face it.
		It is a threat to anyone who is in a position of either requiring continuation of tenure or in a position of balance where they could be ridiculed and criticized.
		And I can't blame them because it is, in fact, it is a pricing place to see situations where one could be threatened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that really hasn't changed, has it?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it changed a lot.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if it hasn't changed a lot, don't think I'd be good talking to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
		And, you know, I. But I'm talking now in terms of a doctor who might be encountering this for the first time.
		I would imagine his fears even today are going to be very, very much the same.
		So I suppose.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And they are, and I will tell you that the fear is unspoken.
		The fear is not shared in public.
		And the fear, in fact, is expressed in the deep recesses of their own minds and their own capabilities of hiding.
		And they do it very effectively.
		And I will tell you, I'm not going to give you a name, which I will not do, but I will tell you this.
		Several years ago, I was invited as a guest speaker in a major city outside of the state of Colorado to give a talk discussing this very matter.
		And I presented, we were all positions of the meeting.
		I presented the data.
		I was admittedly frightened.
		But I said, hey, you know, I've been invited to do this, and I'll do it.
		And I went.
		And I gave a paper, an hour paper, showing the slides, showing photographs, discussing the medical and technical findings, and allowing people to come to their own conclusions, but yet giving them the option of what their conclusion might be based on the information that I gave them.
		And at the end of the meeting, at the end of my presentation, which was, I think, just, if I remember correctly, just before lunch, I didn't have too many people come up to me.
		It kind of disappears into the woodwork with lunch and so on.
		That afternoon, we had a two and a half hour workshop.
		There were, I don't know, 12 or so, 10-minute workshops.
		And every doctor that presented a paper during that morning session had a workshop for two and a half hours.
		And I thought, boy, I really, I blew this one.
		And I figured that nobody would be in the workshop.
		And I thought, well, I'll go there and I'll just see one or two people.
		Well, I walked down there about 15 minutes before it was due to start.
		And there was a large crowd.
		And I got down towards the room that I had been assigned, and I could not get in the door.
		Got in the door, and it was just, there were, you know, there was no seating, and this was 15 minutes before it began.
		And at the end of the workshop, two and a half hours later, I cannot tell you, I can't begin to tell you, the number of physicians that came up to me and told me about their own experience.
		And it was a revelation for me.
		I felt more that I was among my colleagues there, rather than felt like a complete outcast by noontime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's remarkable.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think that, but yet I would defy you to find any physician who has had any experience to go into the doctor's lounge or surgery or anywhere else and say, guess what?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		This is what I believe, or this is what I saw, or this is what I've done I'd never do it and I don't know anybody of my colleagues any of them that would because it is a threat and I think you're a good way to end a career it leads to a lack of credibility and that's why I have persisted and I have been absolutely dogmatic in my own presentations of saying these are the data these are the findings you come to your own
art bell ▲ ● ▼		conclusions I'm not going to tell you what they are this is up to you and I do that tonight as I have done it every other time indeed and I don't blame you a bit um doctor we are at the top of an hour and we're going to do five minutes of news so I would ask that you relax for five minutes and we'll be right back to you right all right doctor take care Dr. Alchuler from Colorado animal mutilations the subject and
art bell ▲ ● ▼		this is some fascinating stuff we'll be back to it in just a moment you're listening to area 2000 from Las Vegas by Marth Bell the downtown this is KDWN Las Vegas 18 Network News I'm Sean Anderson President Clinton has returned to the U.S. from his eight-day six-nation European trip.
unidentified		His last stop was in Geneva, where he had extended talks with Syrian President Hafez Assad.
		Assad says he's offering Israel what he calls normal, peaceful relations in exchange for land.
		President Clinton is praising Assad for his overture.
		Crucial decisions will have to be made by Syria and Israel if this common objective is to be achieved.
		That is why President Assad has called for a peace of the brave.
		And it is why I join him now in endorsing that appeal.
		Israel is treating the Syrian offer as something not exactly new.
		Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin says Syria has indicated before that normalized relations are possible.
		The lawyer for figure skater Tanya Harding has issued a statement saying Harding, as he puts it, categorically denies all accusations that she was involved in the assault on rival skater Nancy Kerrigan.
		Harding's bodyguard and two other men have been arrested in connection with the case.
		The U.S. Olympic Committee met Sunday to discuss the Harding situation.
		USOC President Leroy Walker admits it's a tough case.
		We are troubled by this incident, which seems to smack of an abridgment of the fair play concept and unfortunately, seemingly, allegedly, has been perpetrated by individuals within that same sport.
		Walker says he hopes the committee will decide within a few days whether Harding should remain on the team.
		In Los Angeles, officials say they've been talking with two gunmen who are holding a county worker hostage in the downtown Hall of Records.
		The gunmen are suspected of being carjackers who had led police on a chase from Central California that left four people hurt.
		Will there be a Beatles reunion?
		Yeah, yeah, yeah, reports New Yorker magazine, which says the three surviving members of the group will get together in the studio next month.
		This is AP Network News.
		In pro football, the Dallas Cowboys advanced to the NFC Championship game with a playoff win over the Green Bay Packers.
		That story from Chuck Kelly.
		Ford Aikman threw three touchdown passes, and the Cowboys capitalized on a big turnover just before the half as Dallas beat Green Bay 27-17 at Texas Stadium.
		Leading 10-3, the Cowboys recovered a fumble kickoff just seconds before the break, and Aikman's six-yard touchdown pass to Jay Novicek made it 17-3 at intermission.
		Aikman's third touchdown pass of the day to Michael Irvin in the third quarter made it 24-3.
		And the Cowboys move on to meet San Francisco in the NFC title game right back at Texas Stadium next week.
		Chuck Kelly, Irving, Texas.
		It'll be Kansas City and Buffalo in the AFC Championship game.
		Quarterback Joe Montana drove the Kansas City Chiefs to three fourth-quarter touchdowns to give his team a 28-20 victory over the Houston Oilers.
		More than 2,000 workers at the General Motors Assembly Plant in Shreveport, Louisiana could be back at work in a couple of days after the company and union reached a tentative contract agreement.
		Employees had been on strike since January 11th, mainly over local job issues such as work speedups.
		Army scientists have identified newly returned American remains from the North Korean War.
		We get details from Associated Press correspondent Ken Gilio.
		The Army hasn't officially released the names, but sources say the remains are believed to be those of the pilot and three crewmen of an Air Force strategic bomber that was shot down near the Chinese border in April 1951.
		The investigation into their fate is raising new questions about North Korea's treatment of crew members who apparently survived shoot-down.
		The preliminary IDs were made at an Army lab in Hawaii.
		They must be reviewed and confirmed by Army leaders before a positive identification is declared.
		The four sets of remains are among 194 that North Korea has returned the past three years.
		Ken Jolio, Washington.
		Mexico's president is offering amnesty to rebels in the southern state of Chiapas, where there's been violence since New Year's Day.
		President Carlos Salinas de Gotari says the amnesty covers anyone who's taken part in the rebellion up until now.
		Mexico City, A.C. Bill Cormier, tells us President Salinas is not saying what would happen if the rebels don't surrender immediately.
		He hasn't made any threat.
		He went on TV and he said there's no reason whatsoever why the rebels should not return to their communities.
		However, he said that the federal government will in the next few days begin programs that will help the poor southern state of Chief.
		The rebels are upset over participation in North American free trade agreements.
		They say free trade will put corn and puppy profits.
		Forbes magazine says Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, Utah, and Texas, also Oregon, are the states that show the best prospects for job growth in the future.
		I'm Sean Anderson, AP Network News.
		I'm Sean Anderson, AP Network News.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		Welcome back to Area 2000.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		My guest from Colorado is Dr. Al Schuler, who's done a very great deal of work now since 1967, before anybody else really was doing it, on animal mutilations.
		And back now to Colorado and Dr. Al Schuler.
		Doctor, are you still there?
		Yeah, good.
		So, you had a lot of physicians come up to you after your presentation, or in the second portion of it, and talk with you.
		Did any of them, or I guess a number of them, you said, admitted similar findings?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		No, they were not involved in the animal death situation.
		They were simply involved in having expressed their own experiences, interpreting what I had told them about the possibility of UFO involvement.
		And they just simply talked about their own UFO experiences, unrelated to the animal situation completely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me jump forward a little bit and just ask you this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you had any experience with or looked into the human abduction aspect of this?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have to come through here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this or both of these areas in your view, the animal mutilations and the human abductions, are they both continuing valid areas of inquiry with regard to the possibility of the connection to UFOs?
		Or, in other words, have there been, obviously you've reached no firm conclusions or none you're willing to talk about.
		Will you continue this research?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I plan to continue the research, and what I really have pointed out earlier is that I am allowing people, the audience, you and others, to reach your own conclusions regarding the relationship between these events and the possibility of unknown factors, including full factors.
		I'm not expressing my own conclusions in this regard.
		That comes from mine and should not be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, yeah.
		Let me try this angle of attack.
		In the investigations that you've done of animal mutilations, how frequently have there been connected observations or reports of UFO activity?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I can't give you percentages, but out of the ones that have been clearly unexplained, that have not been, that have not been predator or tragic behavior or other natural causes, I would make an off-the-compet, probably somewhere around 50%.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		There have been a number of cases that have not been anything identified or anything unusual or unusual light, and other situations that have been spotted, unusual lights that are unexplained, the observation of unmarked helicopters and phones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a high percentage.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Why do you say it's a fairly high up?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
		Um...
		I'll flip it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying to decide where to go from here with you.
		I guess I will go here.
		A related field, Doctor, is this cropped circle phenomenon.
		And in that phenomenon, a number of researchers are discovering molecular changes in the crops that have been bent down in these crop circles associated with high heat, which they speculate may be produced by microwave energy, or that they are able to nearly or closely duplicate with microwave energy.
		Is there any indication at all that the sort of cuts that have been made or high heat that's been applied to the animals is of the same nature?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Your office, you've been doing some reading.
		The answer is, again, very difficult, and I can tell you very quickly why.
		If you take tissue that is alive in any animal, be it a cat, a dog, a human, a horse, a pig, it doesn't really matter.
		The changes that occur in the tissue due to heat are virtually the same.
		Now, whether it's due to heat created by microwaves, lasers, unknown cutting apparatuses, electricotery, it doesn't really matter.
		The changes are the same, and for anyone to come and say, this is definitely due to this particular instrument or technique is virtually impossible.
		You can, however, make some relatively good conclusions regarding burned areas.
		They're widespread, and supercision.
		You know that the heat has been applied by a rather widespread form of heating, for example, spilling of boiling oil or the flame from a burning house that burned down, that kind of thing.
		If you find a very precise line that is cut and sharp and demarcating and has the changes of high temperature, you would have to conclude that somehow it has been applied by either an apparatus or a pinpoint dedicated Blade or needle or beam that could, in fact, apply heat in a very precise fashion.
		And that seems to be what I've been finding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the types of animals?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there one type of animal more than another that is generally found in this condition, or does it run the gauntlet?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		It runs a pretty good gauntlet, but the majority by far involve primarily cattle and horses.
		More cattle than anybody.
		But there have been pigs, there have been cows, steers of all types, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you think, on balance, that the incidences of this altogether are on the increase, on the decrease, or do you see a constant, fairly constant number of them?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a pretty substantial increase at various periods in the last 20 years.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And I would say now that it's actually about a year and a half ago, there was a marked increase, then it kind of dropped off a little bit, and I think it's picking up again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it appears cyclical.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Pretty much, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you getting any help now from other colleagues or are you still pretty much out there on your own?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		are you asking about getting Someone alone at the moment, although there are a number of veterinarians that seem to be beginning to have a little bit more of an open mind and an interest in investigational work regarding the mutilation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know this.
		The Bigelow Foundation, in an effort to get cooperation from veterinarians, has taken certain steps and is implementing a program to try to get better reporting on this, and that no doubt is going to help.
		And, of course, the other thing is the time factor from the time something like this is found until somebody like yourself gets to make an examination.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		The Bigelow Foundation is clearly highly supportive of the investigation.
		And I think it's the only research-oriented organization that is willing to support and help establish beyond a shadow of a doubt the unusual nature of these killings.
		I mean, the Bigelow Foundation has been very supportive and really, I think, instrumental to try and come to some rational and good conclusions.
		Nobody else seems to be willing to do it.
		And that's very encouraging to those of us that are somewhat involved with the Bigelow Foundation and Mr. Rigel himself.
unidentified		Yes, yes.
		Very great deal of good work in this area.
		I'm associated with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, I'm afraid of something.
unidentified		I'm afraid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Rable 2 right away and head towards the team.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I haven't gotten very much of that, but I think that may change in the future.
		At the present time, I've made several trips, not a great many.
		One of the biggest problems that faces me is the fact that I'm informed about these deaths days and in some cases weeks after the animals have been found.
		The most important thing that can really be done is to encourage people that have these things happen to them and to their animals is to notify me immediately to make the time lapse between identification of a dead animal and examination much shorter.
		That would be of great benefit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the hematology that's been done?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, with what blood there is available for you to look at, have you noticed any strange changes at all or anything remarkable about the blood?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I have not been able to do any immunologic studies on the blood because it's always too old.
		And the only findings are the ones that I alluded to at the very beginning of our talk tonight, and that is the finding of evidence of cook blood.
		And this is pretty consistent in the animals where the heat has been applied.
		You can find the areas of blood vessels with the typical changes of heat application to hemoglobin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But only in the localized area, in other words?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, only in the localized area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about other things at the site where the animals are found?
		Have you noted any other unusual occurrences or changes or things in the area where the animal is found?
		Anything other than the changes in the animal itself?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you what has been reported, and I haven't been at these areas long enough to witness this on my own.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		But reported has been the fact that animals that would normally be predators do not go anywhere near the carcasses of the animals that have been killed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's odd.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And that is unusual.
		They don't go and attack and eat the remains.
		They stay away.
		Even though the entire may be infested with coyotes and so on and other typical predators, they don't go near the animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's downright bizarre.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I should say, I mean, meat is meat, and I wonder what could be different about the carcass of an animal that has been affected, as you've described.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wish you would tell me.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very odd indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about any tracks, any indication of the presence of a human or alien or anything else around the animal?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is simply not there.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		There have been a number of reports where animals have been seen to be taken up off the ground and then dropped after death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		After death.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And these reports have primarily been as a result of hypnotic regression.
		But you have to remember one thing that's very important regarding hypnosis, and that is there are a tremendous number of myths that are associated with hypnotic regression.
		And the first one is that you can be made to do anything the hypnotherapist wants you to do.
		Absolutely wrong.
		You will never do anything that you don't want to do.
		Secondly, you're not in a trance.
		You're in a state of heightened awareness.
		You're aware of everything going on around you.
		And even more so than you are in complete conscious state.
		Thirdly, if the subject is particularly engrossed in the purpose of the hypnosis session, or if the subject is particularly fond of the hypnotherapist and a friend or somebody that they really trust and they want to plea, confabulation under hypnosis is clearly a possibility and can be done very effectively.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've heard that flights of fancy, actually, under hypnosis or telling the hypnotherapist what the hypnotherapist wants to hear.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And as a therapist, it takes some skill and training to be an effective and a good hypnotherapist to learn not to leave the subject and to avoid the pitfalls that would lead to confabulation.
		And these are not easy.
		But they're essential, especially when you get in the reports of somebody under hypnosis pain.
		I saw an animal that was raised up into a blue beam 5,000 feet above the ground and then suddenly dropped.
		You know, if you get that kind of information, one has to look at it with a bit of a jaunt of science there.
		You have to really consider that this may or may not be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, have the animal carcasses in the cases where there was allegedly it was dropped, are they typically in a condition you would expect a carcass to be in that was dropped from, say, 5,000 feet?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		They're not dropped.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I assume they're probably let down fairly quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		They're not multifractured carcasses with bones broken from head to toe.
		The reports that I'm aware of, and I'm aware of two of them, the animals have been dropped down, not just plunked, but have been dropped down.
		And in one case that I know during therapy, the witness actually saw killing and torturing of the animal and described it with some emotion in terms of torturing of the animal.
		And you know, I don't know whether we believe that or not.
		I mean, I've seen it page.
		No, it's possible.
		I'm not denying that it could well be true, but I'm not saying that I know for sure it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You mentioned black helicopters, and we have a lot of them here in Nevada.
		Many black unmarked helicopters zip about.
		And I see many of them in the little valley where I live, which is close to the test site, rather, what's called Area 51.
		I'm curious, this moves into the who's doing it category, and the one aspect we did not cover that you offered up was the possibility that our own government, for some unknown reason, is doing all of this.
		Have you seen any evidence that would lead you to that conclusion?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have to behave as a creature of logic.
		I think you would be the one that really should be interviewed by me regarding unmarked helicopters.
		You seem to know a lot more about it than I do.
		I will tell you frankly that if you look at the facts that we know, not that we speculate about, then one can come to a reasonable conclusion.
		And the facts are, first of all, that unmarked helicopters seem to predominate around these animal deaths for some unknown reason.
		Secondly, are these simply a figment of the imagination of subjects, or are these in fact realities?
		And if they the Air Force or the government or something of that type, because all aircraft in the United States have an end number that identifies them.
		And if they're unmarked, why they're marked without marking.
		They have no end number to identify them.
		And if so, what are they doing there?
		Are they investigating the mutilations that are being done, or are they, in fact, squeezing them?
		I spoke to an investigator just within the last two days or three days that told me that, again, there's been a tremendous number of sightings of helicopters, but in only one instance does he know, and he's been involved in a lot of them.
		In only one instance does he know about helicopters arriving prior to the time of the mutilation.
		They all seem to occur afterward.
		And I can't explain that either.
		The question that you have alluded to is, are these helicopters, in fact, part of a military plot or a governmental behavior to do these mutilations?
		And if so, why are they doing them?
		Well, there are a number of different explanations.
		One of them is, yes, the government is doing them.
		My question to you is, why?
		Why in the middle of the field?
		The government owns a lot of property.
		Why couldn't they take animals and do their chemical warfare investigation and so on in a fence-off area rather than inciting the wrath and the anger and the loss by part of the ranchers?
		It doesn't make any sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, darn, Doctor.
		I was going to ask you that.
		It doesn't make any sense.
		No, that's right.
		They have access to all the animals you'd imagine they would want.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Secondly, does the government have the technology to do all of these?
unidentified		If so, why don't we know about it?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think the government has incredible technology of which the public at large are unaware.
		But it really seems problematic for me to envision government personnel being able to kill an animal without blood, with sharp detection, with the typical burn pattern, with demudation of bone, the findings that are so typical, and yet I cannot see how we can do it.
		Maybe the government does something that I don't know about, and very likely they may.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even again, presuming they have the technological means, why is an awfully big question.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And to me, the other thing that has been proposed, and I've heard this said, and I haven't said it, this isn't my thought, but I've heard it said time and time again, that the government is doing this because there is a reality of UFOs, and because they recognize the reality of it, they are trying to confuse the public by launching unmarked helicopters to raise questions, to try and muddy the waters with information that isn't true.
		Now, I feel that if I were to be asked, and I would tell anybody this theory, if I were to be asked, well, do you really believe that UFOs exist?
		My answer to you is very simple.
		If you were to take every grain of sand in every beach in the entire world, think of how many grains of sand in one cup.
		But if you were to take it out of every beach in the entire world, that you would not have the number of heavenly bodies in the universe by counting every grain.
		And I think that could be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the pure mathematics, and I've heard Charles Sagan expand on this, sure.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		How can you rationally say we are the only forms of intelligent life in the entire universe?
		I think that's just, that just really is not a practical statement.
		Now, if one says, well, are UFOs coming down, are extraterrestrials and aliens coming down and killing animals and doing these things, I don't know.
		I'm not going to say they are, and I certainly am not going to say they aren't.
		I really don't know.
		And why?
		I don't know that either.
		We hear that it may be from genetic research.
		Who knows?
		They say it may be nutritional.
		Who knows?
		I don't.
		But I think those are plausible explanations that people come up with simply to try and find some reason to explain the unexplainable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it were nutritional, one would imagine they'd take the entire carcass or they would excise that nutritional aspect of it, not mutilate it the way you're telling me it's occurring.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me clarify your comment in terms of what I look at in my interpretation.
		Why would they take the meat and take the entire carcass?
		If they really need a nutritional basis from animals, they seem to thrive on taking fluid because there's no blood around.
		And maybe it's the blood that they alter in some way.
		I don't really know.
		And if that is true, what better animal would there be than a large animal and a large reservoir of them?
		Cattle would be number one on the list, in my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, again, to the human abductions for a moment.
		There have been a lot of cases, or I guess some number of cases, of human abductions in which scoop-type samples have also been taken.
		And do you see any similarity, or have you even studied these cases for similarities to what you've seen done with animals?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I have seen a number of subjects with these scoop-like marks on their ankles and their lower extremities.
		And I have so far only had one person who said to me that they'd be willing to have me excise it surgically to examine it and see if I could find any unusual findings in it.
		And I haven't done it because she has not volunteered, in reality, just, you know, I'll give you piece of tissue.
		I don't really know that she would.
		But nonetheless, I have never examined the biopsy of the scoop area on the skin of a human.
		So I really can't answer that with any expertise.
		I simply don't know.
		my suspicion from looking at them and looking at them carefully is that one would find that the covering the epithelium or the covering over the area of scoop excision would not be abnormal the only abnormality that i would Hello?
		I thought you were...
		No.
		The only abnormality that I can envision would possibly occur would be a thinning of the tissue directly underneath the lining, which is either what we refer to as the papillary or reticular dermis.
		But I don't know because I've never seen it.
		It would be a very interesting thing to do, and I would like to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, we're going to quickly identify the stationer at the bottom of the hour.
		Stand by just one second.
		Good evening, everybody.
		My guest is Dr. Al Shula, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		Thank you.
		From Jackie Gonz Plaza downtown.
		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is on a Sunday evening.
		This is Area 2000.
		You're listening to Dr. Al Schuler from Colorado, who's done a number of examinations.
		One could find out just how many right now, of mutilated animals.
		Doctor, I've been remiss in not asking.
		In the years that you have become active, I presume since 1989 In contact by Linda Howe.
		How many of these mutilations have you encountered?
		Have you examined?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think somewhere in the 30 range.
		I haven't really made a count, but it's somewhere in there, 30 to 40.
		30 to 40.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The most common aspect of them is the heat or the type of incision or the missing blood, and that that's the most common thread that runs through them?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I would say that is, yes.
		Now, out of all these that have done, not all of them have, in fact, been unexplained.
		I mean, a number of them have shown no changes whatsoever.
		So it's not uniformly that they're all typical.
		You know, a fair number of them are, but some aren't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anything at all being published in this area, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, not really.
		I'm currently writing a technical book to do that.
		And it's a labor of intensity and a lot of work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about doing that, again, from the aspect of your career, your ongoing career?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		If I were to do this under my name, I would write the book in a completely honest and objective fashion, which is the way I'm writing it.
		I'm not going to make speculation.
		I'm not going to do anything dramatic.
		I'm certainly not going to appeal to the nuttiness of a lot of people that are involved in the field.
		If you don't believe me, that is probably the greatest and the most serious threat, I think, to the entire area of making any effort to credit the entire UFO business, is that it attracts a lot of crackpots.
		A lot of people are determined to become publicly known and to develop notoriety, and they do indeed accomplish that goal, and they do it at the expense of everybody who tries to do serious research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a very serious problem.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		It's an incredibly serious problem.
		And if I go ahead and finish writing it, which I'm really planning on doing, it will be a book of, hopefully, of credibility, honesty, and objectivity.
		I will present data that is irreputable.
		You cannot deny certain things that I will publish.
		I will have the proof of what I publish and welcome anybody to see it.
		So I don't think I can be criticized for being honest and telling the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think I can be criticized for jumping to conclusions.
unidentified		I'm not going to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what kind of a response, you know what you're writing, what kind of a response would you expect from the scientific world from your publication?
		Do you expect it to generate more research and consultation?
		Do you think it'll bring a flood of that?
		Or do you think they will simply absorb it and move on?
		Or what kind of reaction do you think you'll get?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I really don't know.
		I would hope that the former would hope that it would inspire other investigators to be involved and to help.
		That would be my turn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you like consultation with other people who have perhaps also quietly for years done the same sort of thing?
		Because one could guess there are quite a number of people like that since there have been so many incidents.
		Perhaps not people that have followed it and become involved as you have, but people who have done singular or even multiple examinations and have simply kept their mouths shut.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Have you, other than this program that you're going off, done any more like this if you have been on audio television otherwise?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you find people do come to you after these sorts of appearances?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		I haven't yet.
		And I would like to have some credible people approach me and be willing to help.
		I think it would be a very good time physically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without asking you for specifics, because when I asked my question, it would be obvious why you would not give them, but is there anything that you have encountered that you would be hesitant to or would not even talk about here?
		I had a feeling there might be.
		Is this something that would be contained in the book or something that you will hold on to?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, hold on to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Before I could be higher or 5,000.
		Well, all right, I guess I'll just have to let you hold on to this question.
		Probably shouldn't have asked a question.
		Now I'm dying of curiosity.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		So I could call me on my private line and we can talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you continue to consult closely with Linda Haunt?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I would like to do, Doctor, if I can, is open some telephone lines and perhaps try a few questions from the audience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you be up to that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's do that then.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, our number is 383-8255-8255.
		Toll-free outside the state, it's 1-800-338-8255.
		The wildcard direct dial lines are Area Code 702-385-7214-7214.
		And finally, if you have never called the program at all, you are, of course, welcome at Area Code 702-385-7213.
		My guest is Dr. Al Schuler, and he's in Colorado.
		And if you would like to ask a question, we are at your disposal.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air with Dr. Al Schuler.
unidentified		Yes, I'm particularly interested in whether there's a signature to the cooking of the blood, the burn marks, the cutting tools that might have been used.
		In all of the earthly technology, whatever tools are used, I would assume would have some kind of signature.
		Could you comment on that, please?
		So there have been any studies along that line that you may have done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any type of signature, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		I think when you're referring to signature, you're referring to some identification of the procedure.
		There certainly are signatures in that sense by human technology, for example, doing what we refer to as loop procedures that are relatively new in the last five years or so for removal of tissue in gynecologic practice.
		It's pretty typical what you see.
		Again, you get application of heat and very typical kind of findings.
		Some of these are precisely the kind of findings that you find in the animals that have been dissected.
		Laser that is used in human surgery a great deal today, in fact, very, very commonly, has a signature of its own in terms of changes that are identified microscopically, and these are not found in the animal.
		These changes are very different because it's a different kind of heat, and it's over a shorter period of time, apparently, and at a significantly higher temperature, very likely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Also, I wanted to follow up.
		You mentioned that you took photographs of the original 1967 incident that got you involved in all this, and then did not have them developed, but alluded to the fact that years later you may have retrieved them.
		Is that the case?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you have those photographs now?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I do.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do have them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would they be something you'd publish with your book?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Very likely, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Good evening on the first-time caller line.
		You're on the air with the...
		No.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air with Dr. Osherler.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		I'm calling from Reno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reno, okay.
unidentified		My question has to do, he mentioned that the predators left the animals alone that had been mutilated.
		My question has to do with what about insects?
		Do they come in and cover the anime?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question, actually.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Doctor, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, what about that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		No buy, no mess.
		No, no mess.
		No, no mess.
		I'm debating whether to really talk about mutilations or simple animal death.
		I'm not really sure.
		I haven't come up with a title yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Al Schuler.
unidentified		Yeah, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Henderson.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Henderson.
unidentified		And my question has to do with the helicopters that apparently monitor the sightings or the mutilization.
		It is my understanding that they may be controlled by the Navy as opposed to the United States Air Force.
		Do you have any comment or any insight into that, please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I've heard the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you have?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		But I really don't know.
		I'll tell you, I think really that Linda Howe probably would know more about this and be able to comment on it with greater expertise and knowledge than I. I know several people that have particularly sighted these helicopters, and there's one individual in the Alamosa area, actually, who's been very involved and who I've been in touch with a great deal, who has seen a lot of them.
		And he has mentioned to me that they're primarily Navy.
		And I think they may well be.
		I don't know.
		They may be military.
		I don't know who they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There never has been any contact with anybody in these helicopters or known landing of one in the area of one of these mutilations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has there, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Not contact, but I do know ranchers that have shot.
		In fact, I've met ranchers that have shot at the helicopter and have heard their bullets hit the helicopter.
		So they know they've hit them, but they've never crashed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, that's quite an action to take.
		I mean, one would presume, even without a tail number, that it's a terrestrial origin of the craft.
		And to pull out your gun and start firing at the thing is quite incredible.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the ranchers are very upset about this.
		Back in the early 70s, when there were quite a few of the mutilations taking place in Los Angeles County down in Colorado, the ranchers would shoot at any airplane that flew by.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
		Well, that brings on another question, Doctor, before I let it slide.
		That is the frequency of these incidences with regard to geographic locations.
		Now, obviously, there's more farming in the Midwest and West and cattle ranching and so forth.
		But is there any one particular area more frequently plagued with this sort of thing than another?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		You mentioned earlier there seems to be a cyclical phenomenon regarding events.
		There also happens to be a geographic frequency that occurs at different times.
		For example, Colorado was very heavily affected 20 years ago.
		Idaho, State of Oregon, one of the things that we have to mine statement unions only mid-country boards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was going to be next.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		They've been widespread to the pandemic.
		I have had a number of spectrums that have been sent to me from British Columbia and from Alberta, Canada.
		They have been reported all over the world, all over Europe, Asia.
		It's a pandemic of phenomena.
		It is just limited to Colorado, I assure you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Very good.
		Good evening.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Auchuler.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		UKIP in California by San Bernardino.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ucaipe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, turn your radio off.
unidentified		All right.
		All right.
		That's all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes, my question to the doctor is, under hypnosis, did he discover that any persons or agencies who may have influenced his decision to remain silent?
		Two, have you been ever contacted by the MIV?
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		The first question I like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there anything in the hypnosis sessions, Doctor, that you went through that would indicate any outside influence?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
unidentified		Let the...
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		And I needn't really tell you who the hypotherapists were, but I know that you'd recognize the names if I were to say them.
		Nonetheless, I will tell you that the experiences for me were not pleasant.
		They were, I would say, to put it mildly, traumatic enough for me that I swear I'd never do it again.
		I don't really recall, in fact, I recall everything that happened during the sessions, but not any outside interviews.
		We'll answer the second question by not asking for that.
		That's quite all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll leave them intrigued.
		Line two, good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Auchuler.
unidentified		Yeah, as an outdoorsman, I go hunting in southern Nevada quite often, the central part.
unidentified		Is it only the cattle that seem to be mutilated, or could it be deer also?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, we have in effect answered that, but listen on the air.
		Doctor, again, it's been quite a range of animals, though more frequently cattle and horses.
		Is that about right?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		But deer have clearly been involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Deer have clearly been involved.
		All right, fine.
		Let's keep moving.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Al Schuler in Las Vegas.
		Where are you calling from, please?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Popolopo, Popolopo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nowhere at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line three, you're on the air with Dr. Al Schuler.
unidentified		Good evening.
		Good evening.
		Is there any strange smell or odor connected to these?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess that's a reasonable question.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about that, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		No, not really.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, the peculiarity is really the lack of odor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lack of odor.
		And usually you're finding these animals sometime after the incident.
		How would you medically account for that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I really cannot because the animals that the case that I did examine that was pretty obviously predator had a significant odor to it, I can assure you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there was a normal deterioration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, for there not to be an odor, and I'm not a doctor, you would have to presume that a normal deterioration after death was not occurring.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, that may be a valid conclusion.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I think that I have not examined enough animals at the site to really tell you from my own experience, but this is what I've heard, and I can only repeat that, but that's not first-hand evidence for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Outschuler in Las Vegas.
		Where are you calling from, please?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, sir.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Well, I was wondering if any of these mutilations have happened to any sea animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a wonderful question.
		Thank you.
		Doctor, what about that?
		Sea animals?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I've asked the same question, and I have been told by Linda Howe that there have been such reports.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I don't know of them, and they haven't been brought to my attention, but I understand that there have been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		So there's really, though there are certain concentrations, there is...
		In other words, in the sea, on land?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		And I really would have to defer to Linda's expertise because she knows she has kept a little bit more of an inventory record of the unusual mutilations than I have.
		But as I recall talking to her some time ago, that there was an incident or several of them of the animals.
		But I just can't give you any particulars.
		I don't really know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Line one, you're on the air with Dr. Outfluor.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Yes, I'd like to ask the doctor first of all, how does he spell his name?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I can help you out there, or he can help you out.
		Do you have a question that goes beyond that?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
		But I'd like to, I'm wondering, when he mentions the lack of odor on these animals and also the fact that a great deal of the blood is missing, I'm assuming he's saying it's missing when they take these parts.
		But what I'd like to know is, has anyone ever gone ahead and cut one of the animals up and taken pieces of the carcasses and taken them quite a distance away from where they were found and left them where they could readily be eaten by predators just to see if they would be eaten by predators?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We'll ask that and spell his name for you, ma'am.
		Thank you.
		Let me give it if I'm wrong, Doctor.
		Correct me.
		It's John H. Miller initial H, last name A-L-T is in Tom, S-H-U-L-E-R.
		Is that correct?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor.
		Now, with regard to her question, it is so odd that predators have not approached the carcass.
		Have you tried anything of that sort?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I haven't personally tried it, but I will tell you the following tale.
		I don't know of anybody that has taken the animals after they've been found dead and moved them to another area that is known to be loaded with predators to see if they come near the animal.
		I don't know anybody that's ever done that.
		And that really is not a bad idea.
		I think that's certainly a thing that should be done.
		However, I know of one of the more recent mutilations that took place in Colorado in the Alamos area with cattle.
		It was in a ranch where this particular rancher has now lost seven cows, which has been an expensive and devastating event for him.
		And the last one, there were coyotes that came within, I don't know what the radio, I can't give you the exact feet, but very close to the carcass.
		Maybe 20 or 30 people would not go to the carcass itself.
		And they had seen the coyotes and they'd seen them come up and then stop and not be close to us.
		Why, I don't know.
		But that's been an observation by Chris.
		He told me about it.
		And I think he's really honest.
		And I think he knows the ranchers quite well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's really bizarre and deserves more investigation.
		No question about that.
		Good evening.
		On the first time, call our line, you're on the air with Dr. Al Shore.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
		I'll tell you, I think that the government is doing it.
		And the reason I say that is because I know that they have UFOs because I was stationed at Doug Way Proving Grounds.
		And there's a mountain there called D Mountain.
		And I used to see the UFOs go down behind Dean Mountain.
		And one night, a friend of mine and I were out at about midnight on a motorcycle.
		And we went up to the top of D Mountain and looked down into the valley where the UFO had just gone into.
		And there was nothing there.
		So that tells me that somewhere down there in that valley, that valley opened up and swallowed that UFO.
		And that was right on a military base.
		So you can't tell me that the military does not have UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't tell you that, man.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I know you wouldn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you coming from?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		I would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you coming from?
unidentified		California.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you have any questions for the doctor?
unidentified		No, I don't really have heard about these mutilations for years, but has anything like that been done to humans?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Well, in a sense, I guess the answer would be yes.
		We've already commented on some of the scoop marks that have been observed on people who have claimed to be abducted.
		Is there anything beyond scoop marks that is to be observed, Doctor, about human abductions?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there are.
		I'd like to just have one quick editorial comment on the lady's comment.
		I think one of the questions that has come to her mind is if mutilations have occurred to humans, have they resulted in human death?
		Because that's more frequently what one would think of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, have we found any in the middle of the fields, Dr. Linda?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		No, not to my knowledge, but I understand.
		And again, I am quoting Linda, and I wish that she would be able to be on the program along with me because it would be very valuable to have her input and hear her expertise.
		And I think she knows of some cases where human mutilation or human death, I would rather say, have taken place under bizarre, unusual, similar circumstances.
		Now, in terms of your comment of have there been any other things that have occurred to humans that are really not explained, it really comes in the area of three things.
		One is the Gutmark.
		And I'm not talking about the psychological effects of abduction and so on, but this has been eloquently explained by a number of other people, investigators, that have done a lot of work in the abduction area.
		The second one is the area in which people have had, quote, implants.
		And There have been a number of, I would like to say, claims of implants.
		And I saw a presentation by a noted author in the area of UFO work who he was confused to have had an implant.
		And when he showed this plant scan on the screen, I couldn't see it.
		It could have easily been a part of a bone that was a little bit thickened.
		I wasn't convinced that he had an implant at all, but he claimed, he swore upon God he did.
		There have been a lot of people that have claimed that have had implants that have had noseplases following the event of implantation of an implant.
		Who knows what for?
		Nobody really knows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, we are utterly out of time.
		Okay.
		You have been a pleasure to interview, and I would hope that perhaps at some future date I might do it again, perhaps with Linda Howe.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Okay, very nice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd look forward to that, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, and have a good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You too, sir.
		That's Dr. Outschuler, I guess it is, and from Colorado.
		And I want to repeat this announcement now.
		All good things must come to an end.
		And so it is, sadly, with Area 2000.
		The Bigelow Foundation has announced it will cease funding the program as of February 6th.
		Therefore, that will be the last Area 2000.
		The reason for the series ending at this point is a concern that guests of the same caliber are increasingly difficult to find.
		If you'd like to express your feelings to the Foundation on this announcement, please call the Bigelow Foundation at area code 702-456-1606 or write the Bigelow Foundation at 4640 Southeastern Las Vegas, Nevada.
		We are thinking very hard about syndicating another program, not Area 2000.
		We would rename it.
		If you have interest in getting such a program on your radio station, please contact the CBC Radio Network.
		Their number is Area Code 503-664-8829.
		Repeating the number for the CBC Radio Network.
		We're thinking of syndicating it there.
		Area code 503-664-8829.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Thank you for being here, and good night.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
		Area Code 702-456-1606.
		Ask for Angela Thompson.
		That's Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And be with us next Sunday evening at 8 for another edition of Area 2000.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonz Plaza, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
		720 Kings!
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		Welcome to the Stardust Line, a presentation of the Stardust Hotel and Casino and Kdon Radio.
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