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Jan. 16, 1994 - Art Bell
01:35:15
Area 2000 with Art Bell - Dr John Altshuler - Animal Mutilations
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art bell
25:22
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dr john altshuler
57:34
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Speaker Time Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Translated, we're going to talk about reincarnation and we have an incident in that area.
Otherwise, you would not have gone there in the first place.
So you would have heard that something was going on.
I have no way of knowing how much you heard was going on.
Well, I can't say I thought more than I wanted to find.
out more and I the way I look at this as I listen to you is that it frightens you
or challenge you to the degree that you then turned around and blocked it out or
in other words you found more than you wanted to find. Well I can't say I found more than I wanted to find. I simply
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
would put it another way and that is that the intimidation and the fear
has effectively helped my memory last in detail.
And...
And I found what I found.
Now, I can tell you, subsequent to that time, in the last few years, which only go back about four now, I have done additional studies that I am very cognizant of, and I know very well.
To go back to 1927.
I can't give you the detail that I can from today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
That's probably one of the first examined animal mutilation cases in the country and that's why I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that.
And I'm glad I did.
That's a remarkable thing to have done, Doctor.
And so now I guess we can move forward a little bit.
When did you come back to this whole, in other words, the number of years obviously elapsed when you Not only didn't think about it but actively blocked it out and then at some point you came back to it again.
How did that happen?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
The period of time from that early situation to my getting back into investigational work was a period of 22 years.
And during that period of time I would vehemently deny or refuse to accept the notion that there was anything
peculiar or possibly involved in extraterrestrial behavior that could account for
anything that had happened on the Earth.
I thought I was involved and I just would say, hey, this is crazy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Twenty-two years brings us to about 1989 and I think the beginning of your relationship
with Linda Howe.
We'll be right back to you.
You're listening to Dr. Altshuler, who by the way is with us from his home in Englewood,
Colorado, and we'll be right back to him.
unidentified
From Jackie Gons Pleasure downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Good evening.
It's Sunday evening.
This is Area 2000.
I'm Art Bell.
Dr. Al Tueller is my guest.
He's done a lot of work in animal mutilation cases.
A lot of modern work, and some a very long time ago, beginning with one of the first known examinations of a mutilated animal.
On September 9th, 1967, now back to Englewood, Colorado, and Dr. Altshuler.
Doctor, we're back on the air again.
Was I right?
Is that about the beginning of your relationship with Linda Howe?
Correct.
I'm curious, how did Linda even know to come to you, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
She had heard It's somewhat of a convoluted tale, but without going into detail.
She had heard that I, in fact, had been present to examine the horse lady in Alamoza twenty-odd years before.
And that was really the beginning and the first relatively well-documented case of an animal death that had not been clearly ascribed to Common or clearly explainable cause.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
So she came to you based on not too much more than a myth.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well she came to me having heard my name and having heard that I was, that I had been present.
Yeah.
And she called me and she introduced herself as to her credentials and so on and what her interests were and I refused to see her.
Which was the right decision, I can tell you.
Because at that time, my last desire was to be involved with any form of press.
In any form.
Absolutely in any form.
That was not my goal.
I really like to remain in a low profile situation and to do my work without fanfare, but just
to do it quietly and to do it honestly and to report what I find.
But anyway, she was persistent and one day she turned up at my driveway and she said,
look I'd like to talk to you for a few minutes, just for a few minutes.
And I thought it was wise to be civil to her and invite her into my home, which I did.
And we went down and the valerian in the house and sat down and began to talk.
And we talked, I would guess, for about three or four hours.
After a period of time, I felt a little bit more comfortable with her and was, in fact, convinced that Linda would not do anything to publicize anything that would be detrimental to me, to my work, My reputation and so on.
So I felt that I could trust her enough to be relatively candid, not completely so, but relatively so.
And relatively open, which I was.
And at that time, we discussed the case of Alamosa in some depth.
And after that, she had continued, in fact, she actually had She made a television series several years before about the alien harbor kind of thing.
She, I think, was well awarded for her work, which she certainly deserved.
She did an excellent job in it.
she was in the mode of continuing her investigation in the phenomenon and therefore asked if I
would be of help to her if I could and I decided in a quiet kind of way that I would try and
see what I could do and that's really how I got involved with her and it began about
art bell ▲ ● ▼
four years ago, four and a half years ago. Doctor, how convinced are you that there is
some or any connection between the animal mutilations, the ones you've examined, and
the UFO controversy or are you still very much in doubt about that and thinking about
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
it?
Thank you.
Well, I'll tell you what I, what I tell everyone.
I will give you my findings.
I will tell you objectively what I see.
And then you are going to have to decide on your own what conclusion you come to.
You have to decide completely on your own.
In a situation where I am being questioned, as you have, to give an opinion publicly of what I believe and what the relationship may be with UFOs and cattle and death and mutilation and so on, what I can tell you is that there are a number of findings that are very unusual.
There are coincidental other situations that occur surrounding these deaths which also are interesting to say the least.
And one can come to a logical conclusion in your own mind as to whether the relationship is a real one or not.
I'm not about to tell you whether it is.
That's up to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
No, I don't blame you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
And I can assure you that There are a number of findings that are really pretty unusual and pretty bizarre.
And if we look at the findings that have occurred in these animals that have been found, there are a number of them that are very, very difficult to explain in terms of what we as people, enormously capable, if we are in a scientific mode, are capable of doing.
They're relatively well-known materials That simply would defy human capability.
And the examples, or a number of them, would include one, that these animals are found in a relatively trackless area.
They're found out and found dead, you know, anywhere from a hundred feet to several hundred yards or even miles from the nearest road or the nearest A farmhouse, a ranch home, and the animals are found without any tracks, vehicular tracks, or human tracks of any kind.
Even though the ground may be wet, it's difficult to understand how that happens, but it does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Is that, um, is that typical, Doctor, um, more so than not, that they're found and tracked?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Never cease.
I have, I have, uh, checked a number of cases where clearly The cause of death in the animal has been predator attack.
I mean, just, it's obvious.
It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Then there are other cases in which there simply is no explanation.
The animals are found in a relatively, not absolute, but a relatively bloodless environment.
An animal has a tremendous amount of blood, especially if you have a cow or bull, any of the cattle, the volume of blood is enormous.
And to find them in a relatively bloodless field with the animals having been cut open is a very interesting event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Nothing that a predator, as far as you know, could even do.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, I think, you know, a predator may drink blood, for sure, and tear the meat.
But what a predator will do as a ruler will be in fact to go to the soft portions of the animal, the underbelly, even the eye perhaps and so on, but they will tear the tissue and generally the tissue will be quite ragged in the area of predator attack.
It was pretty clear to me that they saw and they saw.
unidentified
They don't hold the price of a sharp blade.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
It doesn't seem like a practical blade.
As a blade.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Doctor, are there frequently more than one animal in these practice situations where they're way out in the middle of nowhere?
Have there been multiple attacks?
In other words, many dead animals or typically one?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, it's very commonly one or two, but there have been cases.
For example, a case a number of years ago to Linda.
as described eloquently in your book, the Wyatt Ranch where there were five animals
who were almost, around the hood, five of them that were all dead with similar types
in a relatively floodless area without, with very similar types of incisional areas
that were sharply made with coiled out aranches sometimes with a spout or cookie cutter type of incision
to simply meant that it looked like a cookie cutter that was round with the stamp and the tissue
and made around a sharply defined cut particularly around certain parts of the body
more frequently the anogenital area and these are consistent.
The findings at the border of the tissue show rather clearly that there has been
a cut at a sharp border with significant heat because the changes were very pivotal.
And there's no question about that.
That is microscopically very clear.
You can tell that clearly by looking at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, Doctor.
Tissue samples or even organs removed.
A little of this I suppose for some of the audience is going to get a little gory, but I've got to ask, What about the cause of death of the animal?
Is that, or is the tissue taking the apparent cause of death of the animal, or has there been any investigation into that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
That's really a very good question.
I wish I could give you an answer.
I can't.
I can only tell you that the incisions that have been made in some of the animals clearly could cause death.
For example, in the horn that had been killed up in Alamosa.
unidentified
Yes.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Part of the animal that had been denuded from tissue was in the neck and what we refer to as the mediastinum, a portion of the chest.
And that clearly would cause an animal to die.
But it was in a bloodless area, a bloodless field, which is really, to me, remains probably the single most enigmatic aspect of the entire event.
The fact that there just isn't blood.
Well, maybe somebody is very, very good and can come up and crack an accident from the scene of the crime, so to speak.
But how they take blood away is really enigmatic.
Another very unusual finding, and one that is consistent and seems to present itself many times, is the denudation of tissues In other words, the removal of tissue from part of the skeleton, leaving the skeleton white and clean.
Now, this isn't easy to do.
If you try and mimic this with our own capabilities, it isn't easy to do.
It's very hard to do.
I can assure you that I have personal experience in trying to remove flesh from bone tissue
to obtain skeleton parts for the purpose of studying and learning bone anatomy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Can you imagine a process that could accomplish that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Not and it can be done in a matter of a few hours. I just can't envision it. It's taken
me weeks to do it and I mean weeks of boiling bone with lye and scraping it and cleaning
it and sanding it and sawing it. It's really not easy to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes doctor I recall when I was very young I had a project in school. I decided I was
going to get a bird and boil its flesh away and take in its bone structure as a project
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
for school.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
And I boiled that poor dead bird for so many hours until my mom finally made me stop.
So I'm in sympathy with that.
It's very difficult.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
It is.
And yet, we find these animals within a relatively few number of hours, perfectly, excuse me, perfectly alive, then dead, with clean boning bones.
That is an enigma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Here's another good question.
Have you ever run into a situation where an animal has had a tissue sample taken and did not die?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I personally have not, but they have been reported that some animals have remained alive for a short period of time.
I think Linda Howe has more first-hand knowledge in this area than I do.
I have been called almost, well virtually exclusively, Uh, after the fact.
After the animals have been dead.
And I have not had personal experience with live animals that have, in fact, been so-called mutilated or killed.
And I think Linda could tell you about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right.
Perhaps you can speak, though, to the samples that have been taken from a medical point of view.
Is there any sense to the samples that have been taken?
Can you ascribe any sense to the areas that the samples have come from, the size of the samples, or anything else medically?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
The size of the samples, they're all still uniform, especially when it involves the inner genital area with the genital organs frequently removed.
The tongue is not as frequently removed.
The ear, sometimes the eye may be denucleated and removed.
The skin and the flesh along the jaw bone, especially the maxilla, the lower jaw, it can be cleaned of flesh and white, glistening white, clean, absolutely clean.
Speculation.
I have heard people continuously and seem to be curious And they're asking, could this be some kind of genetic research?
Are aliens removing tissues and using them for research?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Using them for nutrition?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
If that were the intent, Doctor, would those samples be typical of what you would want for that sort of research?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
That also is a very difficult question to answer.
And the only reason I say that, not that I'm trying to be evasive, Is that the genetic code, which has been described for many years, you know, 30 years anyway.
Watson and Crick did that eloquently a long time ago, and there's been a great deal of additional information in the last number of years, especially in the last few, regarding changes in the code, but nonetheless, the genetic code is uniform for tissue, be it from the eye, the rectum, anogenital area, It doesn't really matter.
All these particular areas, I don't know.
One of the things that has been published, and I assure you not with my name on it, has been that the dissection has been so accurate that it's been able to dissect between individual cells.
I have never seen any evidence of it.
I've never seen it.
I don't know how... If it were to be done, it'd be great.
It'd be a very interesting thing for me to see.
I've never seen it.
And I think the people that have propagated this unusual, bizarre capability are looking for a very easy way to explain, well, this clearly is being done by alien technology, because we don't have the technology to do it.
True, we don't have the technology to do it, to dissect between individual cells, but I've never seen that.
Why specific origins are taken around the intergenital area of the tongue and the iron throat?
Why these... I don't really know.
The questions can come up over and over and over again.
Why is this going on?
There really are a number of factors that we have to consider.
Number one, is it... In terms of what we know as people, I mean, that's the issue.
Could this, in fact, be predatory?
Secondly, could it be cult behavior?
Thirdly, could it be some form of investigation or research being carried on by federal agencies or whatever purpose?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, I think you dismissed predator theory pretty well.
But not the other case.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
There are plenty of them that are in fact considered to be due to unknown causes and therefore people conclude alien interventions that are in fact predators.
There are a lot of them that are, in fact, sex drives.
I went down to a seasonal moment, and it was crazy.
It was odd.
Then, the ones that cost me ages.
I am continually in the process of trying to learn more about cults, because I know precious little about them.
And there isn't that much known about them, except the fact that when cult sacrifice is played, They generally go for two areas, from what I've been able to learn.
One of them is the heart, and the second are the sexual organs, because it gives courage and sexual prowess for a cultist to be able to be involved in eating or drinking the blood of the animal that is to be sacrificed.
But it seems to me that if cultist behavior were involved in these situations, that They would have to do it very quickly, and certainly by now they would have been caught, but they never have been.
They've been caught for sure, but they are involved in animal death, and animal killing, and they have been caught many times.
I know that in England, about a year ago, I received a call from I see we've got a guest here from Scotland Yard who called me about animals in relation to this.
You know, we have very interesting events and interesting phenomena taking place, but three years ago we found a group of people that were, in fact, I think it's hard to believe it, killing these animals.
They were caught them, they were arrested them, and they're still in jail.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
As a matter of interest, in that case, since it is documented, what manner of mutilation was there?
Will you give me that knowledge?
It would be interesting to know if today's shot included the applied heat for use.
unidentified
Well, there was no evidence of heat from across the ocean.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
He called me and he said that he thought that he was called in because he was interested in hearing about the relationship between the sort of hot part of the side of the ocean and then the relationship to what he had seen in England.
And these were clear-cut relationships, blood all over the place.
And you virtually said, too, A human dissection or showing without having a lot of blood.
That's far enough for them that I know of.
If it is, I'd sure like to know how to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
So, probably not the cults then?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, you know, there may be a number of people, but what I'm really trying to come down to is how do you explain those that are not explainable?
There are those that are killed by sacrifice.
There are those that have been killed by electrocution.
There are those animals that have been killed by predators, for sure.
There are those animals that die of natural diseases, like bloating and other infections or conditions that occur in cats.
What about those cases where none of these take place?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes.
I take it then, in the last few years, you are frequently called when one of these comes up.
You mentioned going once to Oklahoma.
Do you generally get there far after the fact, too much after the fact to come to good conclusions?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Sometimes it's very difficult.
I can tell you there are a number of major problems involved with this entire investigational effort.
The first one is that the ranchers and the farmers are reticent, at best, to tell anyone about this.
It is an economic loss for these people, and you have to recognize that that is true, and that's a major factor for them.
They're losing substantial amount of investment when they have an animal killed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
And I'm sure they have no interest in publicity over the matter at all.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
No interest in publicity.
None.
As a rule.
They don't like to notify anybody, and when they do, they generally notify either one of two groups.
Either law enforcement groups, or veterinarians.
Now, let us take the example of the law enforcement people.
The law enforcement people come out and they say, well, you know, this animal was clearly killed by a predator.
They are hesitant to look at any other circumstantial evidence that would suggest probably not predator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, of course, anything other than predator would probably necessitate some sort of further investigation.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Now, I will give you a case in point.
I was called to see a case that was involved in a horse, actually, in a county north of Denver.
The rancher called me, and I went to the College of Veterinary Medicine, where the animal had been taken.
I had a rather lengthy visit with the chairman of the Department of Pathology, and The only remains of that animal that was kept, that I was allowed to see, was the head.
He brought the head out, and I examined the head, and I took tissue, and I found some interesting findings, which were including the finding of heat application at the margin of the jawbone, where tissue had been taken.
And I asked the doctor, I said, could you tell me how you signed this case out after necrosis?
And he said, well, this animal clearly died of baldness, which is a condition where you get torsion or twisting of the bowel that can lead to bowel obstruction and can, in fact, lead to death.
No question it can.
And I said, well, would you mind showing me this slide so I could look at it?
Because that's really typical when you have a baldness and you have changes that are pretty indicative of that kind of catastrophic event in the bowel.
And his reply to me was not unexpected.
Well, we incinerated the animal.
We didn't take it in mind.
And I said, well, why not?
Because, in my experience, I always take the decision, always, to try and establish what I see with my eyes in gross examination to substantiate the gross examination by microscopic evaluation as well.
And his reply to me was, we didn't need to.
We saw that the animals died of bulbulence, coercion of the bowel, and there was no need to take microscopic tissues or take sections for microscopic evaluation.
Now that would surprise me a little bit from a neophyte veterinary pathologist.
But it's a shock coming from the chairman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
When you talk to somebody like that, do you Do you, in essence, hear an echo of your own self in 1967?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
It's a threat.
Look, let's face it.
I think you hit the nail really on the head.
I think you're absolutely right.
It's a threat. Look, let's face it.
It is a threat to anyone who is in a position of either requiring continuation of tenure
or in a position of balance, whether he could be re-elected.
Well, it's changed a lot.
And I can't blame them because it is in fact a...
it is a frightening place to be in situations where one can be trapped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
And that really hasn't changed, has it?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, it's changed a lot. I mean, if it hadn't changed a lot,
don't think I'd be here talking to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, that's true.
And, you know, I... But I'm talking now in terms of a doctor who might be encountering this for the first time.
I would imagine his fears, even today, are going to be very, very much the same.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
So, I suppose... They are, and I will tell you that the fear is unfocused.
The fear is not shared in public.
And the fear, in fact, is requested In the deep recesses of their own minds and their own capabilities of hiding.
And they do it very effectively.
And I will tell you, I'm not going to give you a name, which I will not do, but I will tell you this.
Several years ago, I was invited as a guest speaker in a major city outside of Colorado to give a talk discussing this very matter.
And I presented, they were all physicians, I presented the data.
I was admittedly frightened.
But I said, hey, you know, I've been invited to do this, and I'll do it.
And I went.
And I gave a paper, an hour paper, showing the slides, showing photographs, discussing the medical and technical findings, and allowing people to come to their own conclusions, but yet giving them the option of what their conclusions might be based on the information that I gave them.
And at the end of the meeting, at the end of my presentation, which was I think just, if I remember correctly, just before lunch, I didn't have too many people come up and kind of disappeared into the woodwork.
That afternoon we had a two-and-a-half-hour workshop.
There were, I don't know, twelve or so ten-may workshops.
And every doctor that presented a paper during that morning session had a workshop for two and a half hours.
And I thought, boy, I really blew this one.
And I figured that nobody would be in the workshop.
And I thought, well, I'll go there and I'll just see one or two people.
Well, I walked down there about 15 minutes before it was due to start, and there was a large crowd.
And I got down towards the room that I had been assigned, and I could not get in the door.
Got in the door and there was no seating.
This was 15 minutes before it began.
And at the end of the worship, two and a half hours later, I cannot tell you, I can't begin to tell you, the number of physicians that came up to me and told me about their own experience.
And it was a revelation for me.
I felt more than I was among my colleagues did, rather than felt like a complete outcast by noontime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, that's remarkable.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I think that, but yet I would defy you to find any physician who has had any experience to go into the doctor's lounge in surgery or anywhere else and say, guess what?
This is what I believe, or this is what I saw, or this is what I've done.
I'd never do it.
And I don't know anybody of my colleagues, any of them that would.
Because it is a threat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
And I think... Sure, a good way to end a career.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, it leads to a lack of credibility.
And that's why I have persisted, and I have been absolutely dogmatic in my own presentations, of saying, these are the data.
These are the findings.
You come to your own conclusions.
I'm not going to tell you what they are.
This is up to you.
And I do that tonight as I have done it every other time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Indeed, and I don't blame you a bit.
Doctor, we are at the top of an hour, and we're going to do five minutes of news, so I would ask that you relax for five minutes and we'll be right back to you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, Doctor.
unidentified
Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Dr. Al Schuler from Colorado.
Animal mutilations the subject.
And, uh, this is some fascinating stuff.
We'll be back to it in just a moment.
You're listening to Area 2000 from Las Vegas.
I'm Art Bell.
The Downtown.
unidentified
In the downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
KDWN News.
I'm Sean Anderson.
President Clinton has returned to the U.S.
from his eight-day, six-nation European trip.
His last stop was in Geneva, where he had extended talks with Syrian President Hafez Assad.
Assad says he's offering Israel what he calls normal, peaceful relations in exchange for land.
President Clinton is praising Assad for his overture.
Crucial decisions will have to be made by Syria and Israel if this common objective is to be achieved.
That is why President Assad has called for a peace of the brave.
And it is why I join him now in endorsing that appeal.
Israel is treating the Syrian offer as something not exactly new.
Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin says Syria has indicated before that normalized relations are possible.
Lawyer for figure skater Tonya Harding has issued a statement saying Harding, as he puts it, ...categorically denies all accusations that she was involved in the assault on rival skater Nancy Kerrigan.
Harding's bodyguard and two other men have been arrested in connection with the case.
The U.S.
Olympic Committee met Sunday to discuss the Harding situation.
USOC President Leroy Walker admits it's a tough case.
We are troubled by this incident which seems to smack of an abridgment of the fair play concept.
And unfortunately, seemingly, allegedly, has been perpetrated by individuals within that same sport.
Walker says he hopes the committee will decide within a few days whether Harding should remain on the team.
In Los Angeles, officials say they've been talking with two gunmen who are holding a county worker hostage in the downtown Hall of Records.
The gunmen are suspected of being carjackers who had led police on a chase from Central California that left four people hurt.
Will there be a Beatles reunion?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, reports New Yorker Magazine, which says the three surviving members of the group will get together in the studio next month.
This is AP Network News.
In pro football, the Dallas Cowboys advance to the NFC Championship game with a playoff win Over the Green Bay Packers.
That story from Chuck Kelley.
Troy Aikman threw three touchdown passes and the Cowboys capitalized on a big turnover
just before the half as Dallas beat Green Bay 27-17 at Texas Stadium.
Leading 10-3, the Cowboys recovered a fumble kickoff just seconds before the break.
And Aikman's six-yard touchdown pass to Jay Novacek made it 17-3 at intermission.
Aikman's third touchdown pass of the day to Michael Irvin in the third quarter made it
24-3 and the Cowboys move on to meet San Francisco in the NFC title game right back at Texas
stadium next week.
Chuck Kelly, Irving, Texas.
It'll be Kansas City and Buffalo in the AFC championship game.
Quarterback Joe Montana drove the Kansas City Chiefs to three fourth quarter touchdowns
to give his team a 28-20 victory over the Houston Oilers.
More than 2,000 workers at the General Motors assembly plant in Shreveport, Louisiana could
be back at work in a couple of days after the company and union reached a tentative
contract agreement.
Employees have been on strike since January 11th, mainly over local job issues such as work speed-ups.
Army scientists have identified newly returned American remains from the North Korean War.
We get details from Associated Press correspondent Ken Giglio.
The Army hasn't officially released the names, but sources say the remains are believed to be those of the pilot and three crewmen of an Air Force strategic bomber that was shot down near the Chinese border in April 1951.
The investigation into their fate is raising new questions about North Korea's treatment of crew members who apparently survived shootdowns.
Preliminary IDs were made at an Army lab in Hawaii.
They must be reviewed and confirmed by Army leaders before a positive identification is declared.
The four sets of remains are among 194 that North Korea has returned the past three years.
Mexico's president is offering amnesty to rebels in the southern state of Chiapas where there's been violence since New Year's Day.
President Carlos Salinas de Gotari says the amnesty covers anyone who's taken part in the rebellion up until now.
Mexico City.
Bill Cormier tells us President Salinas is not saying what would happen if the rebels don't surrender immediately.
He hasn't made any threat.
He went on TV and he said there's no reason whatsoever why the rebels should not return to their communities.
However, he said that the federal government will in the next few days begin programs that will help the poor southern state of Chiapas.
Rebels are upset over Mexico's participation in the North American Free Trade Agreement.
They say duty-free trade will hurt both foreign and country crops.
Forbes Magazine says Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, Utah, and Texas, also Oregon, are the states that show the best prospects for job growth in the future.
I'm Sean Anderson, AP Network News.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Good evening.
Welcome back to Area 2000.
I'm Art Bell.
My guest from Colorado is Dr. Altshuler, who's done a very great deal of work now, uh, since 1967, before anybody else really was doing it, on animal mutilations.
And back now to Colorado and Dr. Altshuler.
Doctor, are you still there?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Good.
So, you had a lot of physicians come up to you after your presentation, or in the second portion of it, and talk with you.
Did any of them, or I guess a number of them, you said, admitted similar findings?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
No, not... They were not involved in the animal death situation.
They were simply involved in having expressed their own experiences Interpreting what I had told them about the possibility of UFO involvement.
And they just simply told me about their own UFO experience.
Unrelated to the animal situation completely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, let me jump forward a little bit and just ask you this.
Have you had any experience with or looked into the human abduction aspect of this?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, I have to come to your death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Is this... are both of these areas, in your view, the animal mutilations and the human abductions,
are they both continuing valid areas of inquiry?
With regard to the possibility of the connection to UFOs or In other words, have there been obviously you've reached no firm conclusions or none you're willing to talk about Will you continue this research?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I plan to continue the research and What I really have pointed out earlier is that I am allowing People, the audience, you and others, to reach your own conclusions regarding the relationship between the event and the possibility of unknown factors, including UFO factors.
I'm not expressing my own conclusions in this regard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Those are mine and should not be All right, let me try this angle of attack.
In the investigations that you've done of animal mutilations, how frequently have there been connected observations or reports of UFO activity?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I can't give you percentages, but out of the ones that have been clearly unexplained, that have not been predator or or other natural causes, I would make an off and tough guess of probably somewhere around 50%.
There have been a number of cases where there's not been anything identified or anything unusual, no unusual light, and other situations where there have been spotted unusual lights that are unexplained, the observation of unmarked helicopters and so on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
That's a high percentage.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
High, you say it's a fairly high, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Um...
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
...
art bell ▲ ● ▼
...
I'm trying to decide where to go from here with you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
I guess I will go here.
A related field, Doctor, is this crop circle phenomenon.
And in that phenomenon, a number of researchers are discovering molecular changes in the crops that have been bent down in these crop circles associated with high heat, which they speculate may be produced by microwave energy.
Or that they are able to nearly or closely duplicate with microwave energy.
Is there any indication at all that the sort of cuts that have been made or high heat that's been applied to the animals is of the same nature?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, you've obviously been doing some reading.
The answer is, again, very difficult and I can tell you very quickly why.
If you take tissue that is alive, In any animal, be it a cat, a dog, a human, a horse, a pig, doesn't really matter.
The changes that occur in the tissue due to heat are virtually the same.
Now, whether it's due to heat created by microwaves, lasers, unknown cutting apparatuses, electrocauteries, doesn't really matter.
The changes were the same and for anyone to come and say this is definitely due to this particular instrument or technique is virtually impossible.
You can, however, make some relatively good conclusions regarding burned areas.
They're widespread and superficial.
You know that the heat has been applied by rather widespread form of heating.
For example, spilling of boiling oil or Or the flames from a burning house that burned down.
That kind of thing.
If you find a very precise line that is cut and sharp and demarked and has the changes of high temperature, you would have to conclude that somehow it has been applied by either an apparatus or a pinpoint dedicated blade or needle or A beam that could in fact apply heat in a very precise fashion and that seems to be what I've been finding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
What about the types of animals?
Is there one type of animal more than another that is generally found in this condition or does it run the gauntlet?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I think it runs a pretty good gauntlet but the majority by far involve primarily cattle and horses.
More cattle than anything.
But there have been pigs, there have been cows, steers of all types, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Would you think, on balance, that the incidences of this all together are on the increase, on the decrease, or do you see a constant, fairly constant number of them?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, there's a pretty substantial increase at various periods in the last 20 years, and I would say now that it's Actually, about a year and a half ago there was a marked increase and then it kind of dropped off a little bit and I think it's picking up again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
So it appears cyclical?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Pretty much, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Are you getting any help now from other colleagues or are you still pretty much out there on your own?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Are you asking if I'm getting technical trouble?
I'm somewhat alone at the moment, although there are a number of my areas that seem to be beginning to have a little bit more of an open mind and an interest in investigation or work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well I know this the Bigelow Foundation in an effort to get cooperation from veterinarians has taken certain steps and is implementing a program to try to get better reporting on this and that no doubt is going to help and of course the other thing is the time factor from the time something like this is found Until somebody like yourself gets to make an examination.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
The Bigelow Foundation is clearly highly supportive of the investigation.
And I think it's the only research-oriented organization that is willing to support and help establish, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the unusual nature of these killings.
I mean, the Bigelow Foundation has been very supportive and really I think instrumental to try and come to some rational and good conclusions.
Nobody else seems to be willing to do it.
And that's very encouraging to those of us that are somewhat involved with the Bigelow Foundation and Mr. Bigelow himself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes, yes.
A very great deal of good work you've been doing.
unidentified
Do you think you would have been associated with this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
In other words, would you have experienced something that you're able to right away and head towards the scene?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I haven't done very much of that, but I think that may change in the future.
At the present time, I've made several tests, not a great many.
One of the biggest problems that What faces me is the fact that I'm informed about these deaths days and in some cases weeks after the animals have been found.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
The most important thing that can really be done is to encourage people that have these things happen to them and to their animals is to notify me immediately to make the time lapse between identification of a dead animal and examination much shorter.
That would be of great benefit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
What about the hematology that's been done?
In other words, with what blood there is available for you to look at, have there been any, have you noticed any strange changes at all that you, or anything remarkable about the blood?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I have not been able to do any immunologic studies on the blood because it's always too old.
And The only findings are the ones that I alluded to at the very beginning of our talk tonight.
And that is the finding of evidence of cooked blood.
And this is pretty consistent in the animals where the heat has been applied.
You can find the areas of blood vessels with the typical changes of heat application to hemoglobin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
But only in the localized area, in other words?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Absolutely, only in the localized area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
What about other things at the site where the animals are found?
Have you noted any other unusual occurrences or changes or things in the area where the animals found?
Anything other than the changes in the animal itself?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Let me tell you what has been reported.
And I haven't been at these areas long enough to witness this on my own.
But reported has been the fact that animals That would normally be predators.
Do not go anywhere near the carcasses of the animals that have been killed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Oh, that's odd.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
And that is unusual.
They don't go and attack and eat their maize.
They stay away.
Even though the entire maybe infested with coyotes and so on and other typical predators, they don't go near the animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Oh, that's downright bizarre.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, I should say, I mean, uh, Meat is meat, and I wonder what could be different about the carcass of an animal that has been affected, as you've described.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I wish you would tell me.
I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Very odd, indeed.
What about any tracks, any indication of the presence of a human or alien or anything else around the animal?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, they're simply not there.
There have been a number of reports where animals have been seen to be taken up off the ground and then dropped after death.
After death.
And these reports have primarily been as a result of hypnotic regressions.
But you have to remember one thing that's very important regarding hypnosis and that is There are a tremendous number of myths that are associated with hypnotic regression.
And the first one is that you can be made to do anything the hypnotherapist wants you to do.
Absolutely wrong.
You will never do anything that you don't want to do.
And secondly, you're not in a trance.
You're in a state of heightened awareness.
You're aware of everything going on around you.
And even more so than you are in a complete conscious state.
Thirdly, if the subject is particularly engrossed in the purpose of the hypnosis session or if the subject is particularly fond of the hypnotherapist and a friend or somebody that they really trust and they want to please, confabulation under hypnosis is clearly a possibility and
Can be done very effectively.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes, I've heard that flights of fancy actually under hypnosis or telling the hypnotherapist what the hypnotherapist wants to hear.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Absolutely, and as a therapist it takes some skill and training to be an effective and a good hypnotherapist.
To learn not to lead the suspect and to avoid the pitfalls that would lead to confabulation.
And these are not easy.
But they're essential, especially when you get in the reports of somebody under hypnosis saying, I saw an animal that was raised up into a blue beam 5,000 feet above the ground and then suddenly dropped.
You know, if you get that kind of information, you're going to have to look at it with a bit of a jaw of a scientist.
You have to really consider that this may or may not be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, have the animal carcasses in the cases where there was, uh, allegedly, uh, it was dropped, um, are they typically in a condition you would expect a carcass to be in that was dropped from, say, 5,000 feet?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
They're not dropped.
I assume they're probably let down fairly slowly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
They're not, uh, multi-fractured carcasses with bones broken from head to toe.
Uh, the reports that I'm aware of, and I'm aware of two of them, The animals have been dropped down, not just plucked, but have been dropped down.
And in one case that I know during therapy, the witness actually saw killing and torturing of the animal and described it with some emotion in terms of torturing of the animal.
And, you know, I don't know whether to believe that or not.
I mean, I've seen it taped.
You know, it's possible.
I'm not denying that it could well be true, but I'm not saying that I know for sure it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right.
You mentioned black helicopters, and we have a lot of them here in Nevada.
Many black, unmarked helicopters that zip about.
and I see many of them in the little valley where I live, which is close to the test site,
not, or rather, what's called Area 51.
And I'm curious, this moves into the who's doing it category, and the one aspect we did not cover
that you offered up was the possibility that our own government, for some unknown reason,
is doing all of this.
Have you seen any evidence that would lead you to that conclusion?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I have to behave as a creature of logic.
I think you would be the one that really should be interviewed by me regarding unmarked helicopters.
You seem to know a lot more about it than I do.
I will tell you frankly that if you look at the fact that we know, not that we speculate about, then one can come to a reasonable conclusion.
And the facts are, first of all, that unmarked helicopters seem to predominate around These animal deaths for some unknown reason.
Secondly, are these simply a figment of the imagination of subjects, or are these in fact reality?
The Air Force, or the government, or something of that type, because all aircraft in the United States have an N number that identifies them, and if they're unmarked, why, they're They're marked without markings.
They have no end number to identify them.
And if so, what are they doing there?
Are they investigating the mutilations that are being done, or are they in fact doing them?
I spoke to an investigator just within the last two days, or three days, that told me that, again, there's been a tremendous number of sightings of helicopters, In only one instance does he know, and he's been involved in a lot of them, in only one instance does he know about helicopters arriving prior to the time of the mutilation.
They all seem to occur afterwards.
And I, you know, I can't explain that either.
The question that you have alluded to is, are these helicopters in fact part of a military plot or a governmental behavior to do these mutilations and if so why are they
doing them? Well there are a number of different explanations. One of them is yes the
government is doing them. My question to you is why? Why in the middle of a field? The government
holds a lot of property. Why couldn't they take animals and do their chemical warfare
investigation and so on in a fenced off area rather than inciting the wrath and the anger and
the loss by part of the ranchers?
It doesn't make any sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, darn, Doctor.
I was going to ask you that.
It doesn't make any sense.
No, that's right.
They have access to all the animals you can imagine they would want.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Secondly, does the government have the technology to do all of this?
And if so, why don't we know about it?
I think the government has incredible technology which the public at large are unaware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Right.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
But it really seems It's problematic for me to envision government personnel being able to kill an animal without blood, with sharp detection, with the typical burn pattern, with the mutation of bone, the findings that are so typical, and yet I cannot see how we can do it.
Maybe the government does something that I don't know about, and very likely they may.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
But even again, presuming they have the technological means, why is an awfully big question.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
And to me, the other thing that has been proposed, and I've heard this said, and I haven't said it, this isn't my fault, but I've heard it said time and time again, that the government is doing this because there is a reality of UFOs, and because they recognize the reality of it, they are trying to confuse the public by launching unmarked helicopters to raise questions, to try and muddy the waters with information that isn't true.
I feel that if we were, if I was to be asked, and I wouldn't tell anybody this theory, if I were to be asked, well, do you really believe that UFOs exist?
My answer to you is very simple.
If you were to take every grain of sand in every beach in the entire world, think of how many grains of sand in one cup, but if you were to take it on every beach in the entire world, That you would not have the number of heavenly bodies in the universe by counting every grain.
And I think that could be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
So the pure mathematics, and I've heard Carl Sagan expand on this.
Sure.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
How can you rationally say we are the only forms of intelligent life in the entire universe?
I think that's just, that's just really not a practical statement.
Now, if one says, well, are UFOs coming down and are extraterrestrials and aliens coming down and killing our animals and doing these things?
I don't know.
I'm not going to say they are, and I certainly am not going to say they aren't.
I really don't know.
And why?
I don't know that either.
We hear that it may be for genetic research.
Who knows?
They say it may be nutritional.
Who knows?
I don't.
But I think those are plausible explanations that people come up with simply to try and find some reason.
To explain the unexplainable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, if it were nutritional, one would imagine they'd take the entire carcass or they would excise that nutritional aspect of it, not mutilate it the way you're telling me it's occurring.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, let me clarify your comment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Okay.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Because of what I look at in my interpretation.
Why would they take the meat?
and take the entire carcass. If they really need a nutritional basis from animals,
they seem to thrive on taking fluid because there's no blood around. And maybe it's the
blood that they alter in some way. I don't really know. And if that is true, what better animal would
there be than a large animal in a large reservoir of them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Cattle would be number one on the list, in my opinion. Okay, again, to the human abductions for a
moment, there have been a lot of cases, or I guess some number of cases, of human abductions
in which scoop type samples have also been taken. And do you see any similarity or have
you even studied these cases for similarities to what you've seen done with
animals?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I have seen a number of subjects with the scoop Like marks on their ankles and their lower extremities.
And I have so far only had one person who said to me that they'd be willing to have me excise it surgically to examine it and see if I could find any unusual findings in it.
And I haven't done it because she has not vouched in reality.
Just, you know, I'll give you a piece of tissue.
I don't really know that she would.
But nonetheless, I have never examined The biopsy of a scooped area on the skin of a human.
So I really can't answer that with any expertise.
I simply don't know.
My suspicion from looking at them and looking at them carefully is that one would find that the covering, the epithelium or the covering over the area of scooped excision would not be abnormal.
The only abnormality that I can envision would possibly occur would be a thinning of the tissue directly underneath the lining, which is either what we refer to as the papillary or reticular dermis.
But I don't know, because I've never seen it.
It would be a very interesting thing to do, and I would like to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Indeed.
All right.
Doctor, we're going to quickly identify the station here at the bottom of the hour.
Stand by just one second.
Good evening, everybody.
My guest is Dr. Al Shuler, and we'll be right back.
unidentified
From Jackie Gons' Plaza downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
It is on a Sunday evening.
This is Area 2000.
You're listening to Dr. Al Shuler from Colorado, who's done a number of examinations.
We're going to find out just how many right now.
Of mutilated animals.
Doctor, um, I've been remiss in not asking, uh, in the years that you have become active, uh, I presume since 1989 and contact by Linda Howe, how many of these, uh, mutilations have you, uh, encountered?
Have you examined?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I think somewhere in the, in the 30 range.
I, I haven't really made a count, but it's somewhere in there.
30 to 40.
unidentified
30 to 40?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
The most common aspect of them is the heat, or the type of incision, or the missing blood, and that's the most common thread that runs through them?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I would say that is, yes.
Now, out of all these that I've done, not all of them have in fact been unexplained.
I mean, a number of them have shown no changes whatsoever.
So it's not uniformly that they're all typical.
You know, a fair number of them are, but some aren't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Is there anything at all being published in this area, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, not really.
I'm currently writing a technical book to do this, and it's a labor of intensity.
It's a lot of work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
How do you feel about doing that again from the aspect of your career, your ongoing career?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
If I were to do this under my name, I would write the book in a completely honest and objective fashion, which is the way I'm writing it.
I'm not going to make speculation.
I'm not going to do anything dramatic.
I'm certainly not going to Appealed to the nothingness of a lot of people that are involved in the field.
You don't believe me.
That is probably the greatest and the most serious threat, I think, to the entire area of making any effort to spread it to the entire UFO business.
Is that it attracts a lot of crackpots.
A lot of people are determined to become publicly known and to develop notoriety And they do indeed accomplish that goal.
And they do it at the expense of everybody who tries to do serious research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yes, you're right.
It's a very serious problem.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
It's an incredibly serious problem.
And if I go ahead and finish writing it, which I'm really planning on doing, it will be a book of, hopefully, Credibility, honesty and objectivity.
I will present data that is irrefutable.
You cannot deny certain things that I will publish.
I will have the proof of what I publish and welcome anybody to see it.
So, I don't think I can be criticized for being honest and telling the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Indeed.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I think I can be criticized for jumping to conclusions.
I'm not going to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, what kind of a response, you know what you're writing, what kind of a response would you expect from the scientific world from your publication?
Do you expect it to generate more research and consultation?
Do you think it'll bring a flood of that?
Or do you think they will simply absorb it and move on?
What kind of reaction do you think you'll get?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I really don't know.
I would hope, the former, would hope that it would inspire other investors to be involved and to help.
That would be my opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Would you like consultation with other people who have perhaps also quietly for years done the same sort of thing?
Because one could guess there are quite a number of people like that since there have been so many incidents.
Perhaps not people that have followed it and become involved as you have, but people who have done singular or even multiple examinations and have simply kept their mouths shut.
unidentified
I would welcome it.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Have you, uh, other than this program that you're now on, uh, have you done any, uh, public work like this?
unidentified
Have you appeared on any of your television shows, uh, otherwise?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
No.
Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Yeah, but have you said to her, uh, that people do come to you, um, after these sorts of appearances?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Not really.
I have the answer.
And I would like to have some incredible people approach me and be willing to help.
I think it would be very good scientifically and I certainly think this scientific endeavor
by more than one investigator would give a lot more freedom to all of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Without asking you for specifics because when I ask my questions
it would be obvious why you would not give them, but is there anything that you have encountered
that you would be hesitant to or would not even talk about here?
Alright.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
I had a feeling there might be.
Is this something that would be contained in the book or something that you will hold on to?
unidentified
I'll hold on to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, alright, I guess I'll just have to let you hold on to it.
I probably shouldn't have asked the question.
Now I'm dying of curiosity.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I like your comment on my private life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Do you continue to consult closely with Linda Howe?
What I would like to do, Doctor, if I can, is open some telephone lines and perhaps try a few questions from the audience.
Would you be up for that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Sure.
unidentified
All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Let's do that then.
In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, our number is 383-8255-8255.
Total free outside the state, it's...
The wildcard direct dial lines are area code 702-385-7214-7214.
And finally, if you have never called the program at all, you are of course welcome at area code 702-385-7213.
702 385 721 472 14 and finally if you have never called the program at all you
are of course welcome at area code 702 385 721 3 my guest is dr. Altschuler and
he's in Colorado and if you would like to ask a question we are at your
disposal Wild Card Line 3, you're on the air with Dr. Al Shuler.
unidentified
Yes, I'm particularly interested in whether there's a signature to the cooking of the blood, the burn marks, the cutting tools that might have been used.
In all of the earthly technology, Not really.
I think when you're referring to a signature, you're referring to some identification of the procedure.
have there been any studies along that line that you may have done?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, thank you. Any type of signature, doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Not really. I think when you're referring to signature, you're referring to some identification
of the procedure. There certainly are signatures in that sense by human technology, for example,
doing what we refer to as loop procedures that are relatively new in the last five years or so
for removal of tissue in gynecologic practice.
because...
It's pretty typical what you see.
Again, you get application of heat and very typical kind of findings.
Some of these are precisely the kind of findings that you find in the animals that have been dissected.
The laser that is used in human surgery a great deal today, in fact very very commonly, has a signature of its own in terms of changes that are identified microscopically and these are not found in the animal.
These changes are very different because it's a different kind of heat and it's over a shorter period of time apparently and at a significantly higher temperature very likely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Also, I wanted to follow up.
You mentioned that you took photographs of the original 1967 incident that got you involved in all this, and then did not have them developed.
That alluded to the fact that years later, you may have retrieved them.
Is that the case?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
So you have those photographs now?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I do.
Yes, I do have them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Um, would they be something you'd publish with your book?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Very likely, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, very good.
Uh, good evening.
On the first time, call our line.
unidentified
You're on the air with the... Oh, sorry about that, Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Wild Card Line 3, you're on the air with Doctor Auschwitz.
unidentified
Hi!
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Hello there.
Where are you calling from?
unidentified
I'm calling from Reno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Reno, okay.
unidentified
Right.
My question has to do, um, he mentioned that the, uh, predators left the animals alone that had been mutilated.
My question has to do with what about insects?
Do they come in and cover boats?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
That's a good question, actually.
Yes, Dr. Hurst, thank you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Thank you.
Yes, what about Bradford?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Bradford is both degrees.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
No bias, no mask, always.
So what kind of mask is it?
Well, it doesn't mean to count on a lot of any specific adjustments that we've made.
We've used air-locked kits and kits that are protective, and that even after looking at
it, it's protective.
We've tried to make it a little bit more protective, and I've tried to make it a little bit more
protective.
I can't do it.
Well, I didn't find a lot of them.
by his end, not by large animals.
He was a credible, positive, and living witness of large animal predatory systems
and trips from the queen to her.
unidentified
By the way, Dr. Moore, the workings of the university, so...
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, I didn't quite know that.
I found... I've had a look at this, at least I say what it says,
and debate on whether to really talk about mutilation for simple animal care.
I'm not really sure.
I haven't come up with a title yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Good evening on the first time caller line.
You're on the air with Dr. Alex Shuler.
unidentified
Yeah, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Where are you, sir?
unidentified
I'm in Henderson, and my question has to do with the helicopters.
That apparently monitor the sightings or the mutilations.
It is my understanding that they may be controlled by the Navy as opposed to the United States Air Force.
Do you have any comment or any insight into that, please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, thank you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I've heard the same thing.
Oh, you have?
Yes.
But I really don't know.
I'll tell you, I think really That Linda Howe probably would know more about this and be able to comment on it with greater expertise and knowledge than I. I know several people that have particularly sighted these helicopters, and there's one individual in the Alamosa area, actually, who's been very involved and who I've been in touch with a great deal, who has seen a lot of them.
He has mentioned to me that they're primarily Navy.
And I think they may well be.
unidentified
I don't know.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
They may be military.
I don't know who they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
There never has been any contact with anybody in these helicopters or known landing of one in the area of one of these mutilations.
Has there, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Not contact, but I do know ranchers that have shot.
In fact, I've met ranchers that have shot at the helicopter and have heard their bullets hit the helicopter.
So they know they've hit them, but they've never crashed and Gee, that's quite an action to take.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
I mean, one would presume, even without a tail number, that it's a terrestrial origin of the craft, and pull out your gun and start firing it at the thing is quite incredible.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Oh, you know, the ranchers were very upset about this.
Back in the early 70s, when there were quite a few of the mutilations taking place in Los Alamos County down in Colorado, the ranchers would shoot at any airplane that flew by.
Oh, boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, that brings on another question, Doctor, before I let it slide.
That is, the frequency of these incidences with regard to geographic location.
Now, obviously, there's more farming in the Midwest and West, and cattle ranching and so forth, but is there any one particular area more frequently Plagued with this sort of thing than another?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
As you mentioned earlier, there seems to be a typical phenomenon regarding these events.
There also happens to be a geographic frequency that occurs at different times.
For example, Colorado was very heavily affected Uh, 20 years ago.
unidentified
Idaho, state of Washington, state of Oregon, Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, these various countries come to mind.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
That was going to be next.
when I was going to be next because they've been wise sensitive pandemic I have had a
number of about
of that. That's...
Very good.
Good evening.
On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Altschuler.
Where are you calling from, please?
Uh, Yucaipa, California by San Bernardino.
unidentified
Yucaipa.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
All right.
Turn your radio off.
All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, very good. Good evening on the first time caller line. You're on the air with dr. Altshuler. Where are you
calling from, please?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
You type of California by Sam where do you know you type?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, turn your radio off It's off.
All right, good.
Go ahead.
unidentified
Yes, my question to the doctor is, under hypnosis, did he discover that any persons or agencies who may have influenced his decision to remain silent, too, have you been ever contacted by the MIB?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, thank you.
The first question I like.
Was there anything in the hypnosis sessions, Doctor, that you went through that would indicate any outside influence?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Not really.
Let me... Well, I will just tell you very briefly that I've had...
Really, three episodes that have been fairly widely set apart in terms of time over the last four years.
And I needn't really tell you who the hypnotherapists were, but I know that you recognize the names if I were to say them.
Nonetheless, I will tell you that the experiences for me were not pleasant.
They were, I would say, to put it mildly, It was traumatic enough for me that I swore I'd never do it again.
I don't really recall, in fact I recall everything that happened during the sessions, but not any outside influences.
I will answer the second question by not answering it.
Don't mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Believe them intrigued.
Line 2, good evening.
You're on the air with Dr. Autschuler.
unidentified
Yeah, as an avid outdoorsman, I go hunting in Southern Nevada quite often on the central part.
Is it only the cattle that seem to be mutilated, or could it be deer also?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Okay, well we haven't in fact answered that, but listen on the air.
Doctor, again, it's been quite a range of animals, though more frequently cattle and horses.
Is that about right?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Correct.
But deer have certainly been involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Good evening.
Is there any strange smell or odor connected to these?
I think it is.
Good evening, you're on the air with Dr. Altshuler in Las Vegas. Where are you calling from, please?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Apolopo, Apolopo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Nowhere at all.
Line 3, you're on the air with Dr. Altshuler. Good evening.
unidentified
Good evening. Is there any strange smell or odor connected to these?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
I guess that's a reasonable question.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I think it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
How about that, doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
No, not really. As a matter of fact, the peculiarity is really the lack of odor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Hmm.
A lack of odor.
And usually you're finding these animals sometime after the incident.
How would you medically account for that?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I really cannot because the animals that the case that I did examine that was Pretty obviously Predator had a significant odor to it.
I can assure you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
So there was a normal deterioration.
Well for there not to be an odor, and I'm not a doctor, you would have to presume that a normal deterioration after death was not occurring.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well that may be a valid conclusion.
I think that I have not examined enough animals at this site to really tell you from my own experience, but this is what I've heard, and I can only repeat that, but that's not first-hand evidence for me.
Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right.
Good evening.
You're on the air with Dr. Al Shuler in Las Vegas.
Where are you calling from, please?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
San Diego.
All right.
Go ahead, sir.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Yeah.
unidentified
Well, I was wondering if any of these mutilations have happened to any sea animals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
That is a wonderful question.
Thank you.
Doctor, what about that sea animal?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I've asked the same question, and I have been told by Linda Howe that there have been such reports.
I don't know of them, and they haven't been brought to my attention, but I understand that there have been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Fascinating.
So there's really, although there are certain concentrations, there's no specific area of concentration.
In other words, in the sea, on land?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Not really, and I really would have to defer to Linda's expertise, because she knows, she has kept a little bit more of a of an inventory record of the unusual mutilations that I have.
But as I recall talking to her some time ago that there was an incident or several of them of the animals, but I just can't give you any particular.
I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right.
Line one, you're on the air with Dr. Altshuler.
Good evening.
unidentified
Yes, I'd like to ask the doctor, first of all, how does he spell his name?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right.
I can help you out there, or he can help you out.
Do you have a question that goes beyond that?
unidentified
Yes, I do.
But I'd like to... I'm wondering, when he mentions the lack of odor on these animals, and also the fact that a great deal of the blood is missing.
I'm assuming he's saying it's missing when they take these parts.
But what I'd like to know is, has anyone ever gone ahead and cut one of the animals up and taken pieces of the carcasses
and taken them quite a distance away from where they were found and left them where they could readily be eaten by
predators just to see if they would be eaten by predators?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
We'll ask that and spell his name for you, ma'am.
Thank you.
Let me give it, if I'm wrong, doctor, correct me.
It's John H. Miller initial H, last name A-L-T as in Tom, S-H-U-L-E-R.
Is that correct?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, doctor.
Now, with regard to her question, It is so odd that predators have not approached the carcass.
Have you tried anything of that sort?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Well, I haven't personally tried it, but I will tell you the following tale.
I don't know of anybody that has taken the animals after they've been found dead and moved them to another area that is known to be loaded with predators to see if they come near the animal.
I don't know anybody that's ever done that.
That really is not a bad idea.
I think that's certainly a thing that should be done.
However, I know of one of the more recent mutilations that took place in Colorado in the Alamos area of cattle.
It was in a ranch where this particular rancher has now lost seven cows, which has been an expensive and devastating event for him.
As the last one, there were coyotes that came within, I don't know what the range, I can't see with these back feet, but very close to the carcass.
Maybe 20 or 30 people would not go to the carcass itself.
And they had seen the coyotes, seen them come up, and then stopped.
And not as many closer.
Why?
I don't know.
But that's been an observation by folks who told me about it.
And I think he's really honest.
I think he knows.
He knows the ranchers really quite well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, that's really bizarre and deserves more investigation.
No question about that.
Good evening.
On the first time color line, you're on the air with Dr. Altshuler.
unidentified
Yes, hi.
I'll tell you, I think that the government is doing it.
And the reason I say that is because I know that they had UFOs because I was stationed at that way proving ground.
And there's a mountain there called Dean Mountain, and I used to see the UFOs go down behind Dean Mountain.
And one night, a friend of mine and I were out at about midnight on a motorcycle, and we went up to the top of Dean Mountain and looked down into the valley where the UFO had just gone into, and there was nothing there.
So that tells me that somewhere down there in that valley, That valley opened up and swallowed that UFO.
And that was right on a military base.
So you can't tell me that the military does not have UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
I wouldn't tell you that.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
I know you wouldn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Where are you calling from?
unidentified
California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Alright, well do you have any questions for the doctor?
unidentified
No, I don't really have heard about these mutilations for years, but has anything like that been done to humans?
art bell ▲ ● ▼
All right, thank you.
Well, in a sense, I guess the answer would be yes.
We've already commented on some of the scoop marks that have been observed on people who claim to be abducted.
Is there anything beyond scoop marks that is to be observed, Doctor, about human abductions?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
Yes, there are.
I'd like to just have one quick editorial comment on the lady's comment.
I think one of the questions that has come to her mind is, if mutilations have occurred to humans, have they resulted in human death?
Because that's more frequently what one would think of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Well, have we found any in the middle of fields, Doctor?
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
No, not to my knowledge, but I understand, and again, I am quoting Linda, and I wish That she would be able to be on the program along with me because it would be very valuable to have her input and hear her expertise.
And I think she knows of some cases where human mutilation or human death, I would rather say, have taken place under bizarre, unusual, similar circumstances.
Now in terms of your comment of have there been any other things that have occurred to humans that are really not explained, It really comes in this area of three things.
One is the goop mind.
And I'm not talking about the psychological effects of abduction and so on, but this has been eloquently explained by a number of other people and investigators that have done a lot of work in the abduction area.
The second one is the area in which people have had, quote, implants.
And There have been a number of, I would like to say, claims of implants, and I saw a presentation by a noted author in the area of UFO work, whose name is in fact who had an implant, and when he showed this cat scan on the screen, I couldn't see it.
I could have easily been part of a bone that was a little bit thickened.
Sure.
I couldn't, I wasn't convinced that he had an implant at all, but he claimed, he swore up and down he did.
There have been a lot of people that have claimed that have had implants, that have had nose bleeds the following, following the event of implantation of an implant.
Who knows what for?
Nobody really knows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
Doctor, we are utterly out of time.
unidentified
Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
You have been a pleasure to interview.
And, um, I would hope that perhaps at some future date I might do it again, perhaps with Linda Howe.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
That would be very nice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
I'd look forward to that.
Doctor, thank you.
dr john altshuler ▲ ● ▼
All right, well, thank you, and have a good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
You too, sir.
Um, that's, uh, Dr., uh, Altshuler, Altshuler, I guess it is, and, uh, from Colorado.
And I want to repeat this announcement now.
All good things must come to an end.
And so it is, sadly, with Area 2000.
The Bigelow Foundation has announced it will cease funding the program as of February 6th.
Therefore, that will be the last Area 2000.
The reason for the series ending at this point is a concern that guests of the same caliber are increasingly difficult to find.
If you'd like to express your feelings to the Foundation on this announcement, please call the Bigelow Foundation.
At area code 702-456-1606 or write the Bigelow Foundation at 4640 Southeastern Las Vegas, Nevada.
We are thinking very hard about syndicating another program, not Area 2000.
We would rename it.
If you have interest in getting such a program on your radio station, please contact the CBC Radio Network.
Their number is area code 503-664-8829.
Repeating the number for the CBC Radio Network.
We're thinking of syndicating it there.
Area code 503-664-8829.
I'm Art Bell.
I'm Art Bell, thank you for being here and good night.
unidentified
The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼
The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m.
and 5 p.m.
Area code 702-456-1606.
Ask for Angela Thompson.
That's area code 702-456-1606.
1606. Ask for Angela Thompson. That's area code 702-456-1606.
And be with us next Sunday evening at 8 for another edition of Area 2000.
unidentified
From Jackie Gonsplaza, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
And the following program is sponsored and paid for by the Stardust Hotel and Casino.
It's time to go live to the nation's number one racing sportsbook
at the fabulous Stardust on the Las Vegas Strip.
Welcome to the Stardust Line, a presentation of the Stardust Hotel and Casino and KDON Radio.
This week and every week, tune in to the Stardust Line for lively commentary, fresh insights, and exciting guests from the world of race and sports.
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