Dr. John Altshuler revisits his 1967 Alamosa, Colorado, animal mutilation case—bloodless fields, precise incisions, and cleanly stripped bones defying natural or human explanations—after blocking it for 22 years. He’s examined ~30-40 cases but notes authorities dismiss many as predator attacks without scrutiny, citing fear of ridicule or career risks. Unmarked helicopters are often reported near sites, though no direct government link is proven. Altshuler speculates on genetic research, cults, or agency experiments but avoids UFO claims, despite similarities to crop circles and human abduction tissue samples. His research ends with Area 2000’s shutdown (Feb 6, 2024) due to Bigelow Foundation funding cuts, leaving the phenomenon’s global scope—affecting cattle, deer, even sea life—unexplained but undeniably persistent. [Automatically generated summary]
Uh translated, we're going to talk about reincarnation and we have an incident in that area.
Otherwise you would not have gone there in the first place.
So you you would have heard that something was going on.
I have no way of knowing how much you heard was going on, but clearly you went up there because you were personally interested, intrigued, wanted to find out more.
And the way I look at this as I listen to you is that it frightened you or challenged you to the degree that you then turned around and blocked it out.
Or in other words, you found more than you wanted to find.
Well, I can't say I found more than I wanted to find.
I simply would put it another way, and that is that the intimidation and the fear effectively helped my memory last in detail.
And I found what I found.
Now, I can tell you, subsequent to that time, in the last few years, which only go back about four now, I have done additional studies that I am very cognizant of and I know very well.
But to go back to 1967, I can't give you the details that I can from today.
That's probably one of the first examined animal mutilation cases in the country, and that's why I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that.
And I'm glad I did.
That's a remarkable thing to have done, Doctor.
And so now I guess we can move forward a little bit.
When did you come back to this whole, in other words, a number of years obviously elapsed when you not only didn't think about it, but actively blocked it out.
And then at some point, you came back to it again.
The period of time from that early situation to my getting back into investigational work was a period of 22 years.
And during that period of time, I would vehemently deny or refuse to accept the notion that there was anything peculiar or possibly involved in extraterrestrial behavior that could account for anything that had happened on the Earth.
He's done a lot of work in animal mutilation cases, a lot of modern work, and some a very long time ago, beginning with one of the first known examinations of a mutilated animal.
On September 9th, 1967, now back to Anglewood, Colorado, and Dr. Alchuler.
Doctor, we're back on the air again.
Was I right?
Is that about the beginning of your relationship with Linda Howe?
Correct.
I'm curious, how did Linda even know to come to you, Doctor?
She had heard, somewhat of a congruted tale, but without going into detail, she had heard that I, in fact, had been present to examine the horse lady in Alamosa 20 odd years before.
And that was really the beginning and the first relatively well-documented case of an animal death that had not been clearly ascribed to common or clearly explainable causes.
Well, she came to me having heard my name and having heard that I had been present.
Yes.
And she called me and she introduced herself as to her credentials and so on and what her interests were and I refused to see her, which was the right decision, I can tell you.
Because at that time, my last desire was to be involved in any form of press, in any form, absolutely form.
That was not my goal.
I really like to remain in a low-profile situation and to do my work without fanfir, but just to do it quietly and to do it honestly and to report what I find.
But anyway, she was persistent.
And one day, she turned up in my driveway.
Oh?
And she said, look, I'd like to talk to you for a few minutes, just for a few minutes.
And I felt obliged to be at least civil to her and invite her in my home, which I did.
And we went down in the villarium in the house and sat down and began to talk.
And we talked, I would guess, for about three or four hours.
After a period of time, I felt a little bit more Comfortable with her, and was in fact convinced that Linda would not do anything to publicize anything that would be detrimental to me, to my work, my reputation, and so on.
So I felt that I could trust her enough to be relatively candid, not completely so, but relatively calm, and relatively open, which I was.
And at that time, we discussed the case in Alamosa in some depth.
And after that, she had continued, in fact, she actually had made a television series several years before about the alien harvest kind of.
She, I think, was well awarded for her work, which certainly deserved.
She did an excellent job in it.
And she was in the mode of continuing her investigation in the phenomenon.
And therefore, asked if I would be of help to her if I could.
And I decided in a quiet kind of way that I would try and see what I could do.
And that's really how I got involved with her.
And it began about four years ago, four and a half years ago.
And then you are going to have to decide on your own what conclusion you come to.
You have to decide completely on your own.
In a situation where I am being questioned, as you have, to give an opinion publicly of what I believe and what the relationship may be with UFOs and cattle deaths and mutilation and so on, what I can tell you is that there are a number of findings that are very unusual.
There are coincidental other situations that occur surrounding these deaths, which also are difficult, beliefs.
And one can come to a logical conclusion in your own mind as to whether the relationship is a real one or not.
And I can assure you that there are a number of findings that are really pretty unusual.
They're pretty bizarre.
And if we look at the findings that have occurred in these animals and found, there are a number of them that are very, very difficult to explain in terms of what we as people, enormously capable as we are in fact in that mode, are capable of doing.
They're relatively well-known materials that simply would defy human capability.
And the examples, or a number of them, would include, or I would include one, that these animals are found in a relatively trackless area.
They're found out and found dead, you know, anywhere from 100 feet to several hundred yards or even miles from the nearest road or the nearest farmhouse or ranch home.
And the animals are found without any track, vehicular tracks or human tracks of any kind.
Even though the ground may be wet, it's difficult to understand how that happens, but it does.
I think, you know, a predator may drink blood for sure and tear the meat.
But what a predator will do, as a rule, will be attracted to go to the soft portions of the animal, the underbelly, even the eye perhaps and so on, but they will tear the tissue.
And generally the tissue will be quite ragged in the area of predator attack.
It looks pretty clear to me that they gnaw and they tear.
Well, it's very commonly one or two, but there have been cases, for example, a case a number of years ago that Linda Howe described eloquently in her book, the Wyatt ranch where there were five animals that were almost around the hook, five of them, who were all dead, with similar kinds.
In a relatively bloodless area, without stacks, with very similar types of figures that were company babies, when coin out, aranches, sometimes different styles,
the cookie cutter type of figures that could be bent, and it looked like the cookie cutter that was round, that they stamped in the tissue and made a rather sharply defined cut, particularly around certain parts of the body, more frequently the anogenital area.
The findings at the border of the tissue show rather clearly that there's been a cut at a sharp border with significant heat because the changes are very typical heat.
I can only tell you that the incisions that have been made in some of the animals clearly could cause death.
For example, in the horse that had been killed up in Alamosa, the part of the animal that had been denuded from tissue was in the neck and what we refer to as the mediastinum, a portion of the chest.
And that clearly would cause an animal to die.
But it was in a bloodless area, bloodless field, which really, to me, remains probably the single most enigmatic aspect of the entire event.
The fact that there just isn't blood.
Crackless, you can say, well, maybe somebody is very, very good and can cover up their cracks, exiting from the scene of the crime, so to speak.
But how they take blood away is really enigmatic.
Another very unusual finding and one that is consistent and seems to present itself many times is the denudation of tissue from bone.
In other words, the removal of tissue from part of the skeleton, leaving the skeleton white and clean.
Now, this isn't easy to do.
If you try and mimic this with our own capabilities, it isn't easy to do.
It's very hard to do.
I can assure you that I have personal experience in trying to remove flesh from bone tissue to obtain skeleton parts for the purpose of studying and learning bone anatomy.
Well, the size of the samples are all still uniform, especially when it involves the anogenical area with the genital organs frequently removed.
The tongue is not infrequently removed.
The ear, sometimes the eye may be nucleated and removed.
The skin and the flesh along the jawbone, especially the maxilla, the lower jaw, it can be cleaned of flesh and white, glistening white, clean, absolutely clean.
Speculation.
I have heard people continuously and seem to be curious in their asking, could this be some kind of genetic research?
Are aliens removing the tissues and using them for research?
And the only reason I say that, not that I'm trying to be evasive, is that the genetic code, which has been described for many years, you know, 30 years anyway, Watson and Creek did that eloquently a long time ago.
And there's been a great deal of additional information in the last number of years, especially in the last few, regarding changes in the code.
But nonetheless, the genetic code is uniform for tissue, be it from the eye, the rectum, anogenital area, chest.
It doesn't really matter.
Besides these particular areas, I don't know.
One of the things that has been published, and I assure you, not with my name on it, has been that the dissection has been so accurate that it's been able to dissect between individual cells.
I have never seen any evidence of it.
I've never seen it.
I don't know how, if it were to be done, it'd be great.
It'd be a very interesting thing for me to see.
I've never seen it.
And I think the people that have propagated this unusual bizarre capability are looking for a very easy way to explain, well, this clearly is being done by alien technology because we don't have the technology to do it.
True, we don't have the technology to do it, to dissect between individual cells.
But I've never seen that.
Why specific organs are taken around the atrogenital areas, the tongue, and the iron cell?
Why these, I don't really know.
The question can come up over and over and over again.
Why is this going on?
There really are a number of factors that we have to consider.
Number one, is it, in terms of what we know as people, as investigators, could this in fact be predator?
Secondly, could it be cult behavior?
Thirdly, could it be some form of investigation or research being carried on by federal agencies for whatever purpose?
There are plenty of them that are, in fact, considered to be due to unknown causes, and therefore people conclude alien interventions that are in fact predatory.
There are a lot of them that aren't, in fact, Petron.
I went down those streets and looked over and learned from them that they would be hard.
I am continually in the cost of trying to learn more about cults because I know precious little about them.
And there isn't that much known about them, except the fact that when cult sacrifices take place, they generally go for two areas from what I've been able to learn.
One of them is the heart.
And the second are the sex organs, because it gives courage and special prowess for the cultist to be able to be involved in feeding or crazing the blood of the animal that is to sacrifice.
But it seems to me that if cult behavior were involved in these situations, that they would have to do it very quickly, and certainly by now they would have been caught, and they never have been.
They've been caught for sure, but our involved is an animal death and an animal killed, and they have been caught for some time.
I know that to do it about a year ago, I received a call from, I think it was an investigative government who called me about animals in the English.
Because you know, we have very little evidence that the phenomena takes the case, but three years ago, we found a group of people that were, I think, completely chosen, but it's costly, and it's going to go.
Well, there was no evidence of teeth in what's been about the cold, but he caused a heat set, that heat cloud, that he was called here because he was interested and he was curious about the mutilation and he was being What part of the side of the ocean had any relationship to what the CSV was human?
And these were clear-cut mutilations with flood all over the place.
And you personally don't do a human dissection or something without having a lot of flood.
I was called to see a case that was involved in a horse, actually, in a county north of Denver.
The rancher called me, and I went to the College of Veterinary Medicine where the animal had been taken.
I had a rather lengthy visit with the chairman of the department of the thought.
And the only remains of that animal kept that I was allowed to see was the head.
He brought the head out, and I examined the head, and I took tissue, and I found some interesting findings, which were including the finding of heat application at the margin of the jawbone, where tissue had been taken.
And I asked the doctor, I said, could you tell me how you signed this case out after necropsy?
And he said, well, this animal clearly died of volvulus, which is a condition where you get torsion or twisting of the bowel that can lead to bowel obstruction and can, in fact, lead to death.
No question it can.
And I said, well, would you mind showing me the slide so I could look at it?
Because they're fairly typical when you have a valvulus and you have changes that are pretty indicative of that kind of catastrophic event in the bowel.
And his reply to me was not unexpected.
Well, we incinerated the animal.
We didn't take him slide.
And I said, well, why not?
Because in my experience, I always take position, always, to try and establish what I see with my eyes in gross examination to substantiate the gross examination by the microscopic evaluation as well.
And his reply to me was, we didn't need to.
We saw that the animals died of falvulus, torsion of the bowels, and there was no need to take microscopic or take sections for microscopic evaluation.
Now that would surprise me a little bit from a neophyte veterinary pathologist.
But it shocked me coming from the chairman of the court.
I think you hit the nail squarely on the guy that you're asking why.
It's a threat.
Let's face it.
It is a threat to anyone who is in a position of either requiring continuation of tenure or in a position of balance where they could be ridiculed and criticized.
And I can't blame them because it is, in fact, it is a pricing place to see situations where one could be threatened.
And they are, and I will tell you that the fear is unspoken.
The fear is not shared in public.
And the fear, in fact, is expressed in the deep recesses of their own minds and their own capabilities of hiding.
And they do it very effectively.
And I will tell you, I'm not going to give you a name, which I will not do, but I will tell you this.
Several years ago, I was invited as a guest speaker in a major city outside of the state of Colorado to give a talk discussing this very matter.
And I presented, we were all positions of the meeting.
I presented the data.
I was admittedly frightened.
But I said, hey, you know, I've been invited to do this, and I'll do it.
And I went.
And I gave a paper, an hour paper, showing the slides, showing photographs, discussing the medical and technical findings, and allowing people to come to their own conclusions, but yet giving them the option of what their conclusion might be based on the information that I gave them.
And at the end of the meeting, at the end of my presentation, which was, I think, just, if I remember correctly, just before lunch, I didn't have too many people come up to me.
It kind of disappears into the woodwork with lunch and so on.
That afternoon, we had a two and a half hour workshop.
There were, I don't know, 12 or so, 10-minute workshops.
And every doctor that presented a paper during that morning session had a workshop for two and a half hours.
And I thought, boy, I really, I blew this one.
And I figured that nobody would be in the workshop.
And I thought, well, I'll go there and I'll just see one or two people.
Well, I walked down there about 15 minutes before it was due to start.
And there was a large crowd.
And I got down towards the room that I had been assigned, and I could not get in the door.
Got in the door, and it was just, there were, you know, there was no seating, and this was 15 minutes before it began.
And at the end of the workshop, two and a half hours later, I cannot tell you, I can't begin to tell you, the number of physicians that came up to me and told me about their own experience.
And it was a revelation for me.
I felt more that I was among my colleagues there, rather than felt like a complete outcast by noontime.
I think that, but yet I would defy you to find any physician who has had any experience to go into the doctor's lounge or surgery or anywhere else and say, guess what?
This is what I believe, or this is what I saw, or this is what I've done I'd never do it and I don't know anybody of my colleagues any of them that would because it is a threat and I think you're a good way to end a career it leads to a lack of credibility and that's why I have persisted and I have been absolutely dogmatic in my own presentations of saying these are the data these are the findings you come to your own
conclusions I'm not going to tell you what they are this is up to you and I do that tonight as I have done it every other time indeed and I don't blame you a bit um doctor we are at the top of an hour and we're going to do five minutes of news so I would ask that you relax for five minutes and we'll be right back to you right all right doctor take care Dr. Alchuler from Colorado animal mutilations the subject and
this is some fascinating stuff we'll be back to it in just a moment you're listening to area 2000 from Las Vegas by Marth Bell the downtown this is KDWN Las Vegas 18 Network News I'm Sean Anderson President Clinton has returned to the U.S. from his eight-day six-nation European trip.
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His last stop was in Geneva, where he had extended talks with Syrian President Hafez Assad.
Assad says he's offering Israel what he calls normal, peaceful relations in exchange for land.
President Clinton is praising Assad for his overture.
Crucial decisions will have to be made by Syria and Israel if this common objective is to be achieved.
That is why President Assad has called for a peace of the brave.
And it is why I join him now in endorsing that appeal.
Israel is treating the Syrian offer as something not exactly new.
Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin says Syria has indicated before that normalized relations are possible.
The lawyer for figure skater Tanya Harding has issued a statement saying Harding, as he puts it, categorically denies all accusations that she was involved in the assault on rival skater Nancy Kerrigan.
Harding's bodyguard and two other men have been arrested in connection with the case.
The U.S. Olympic Committee met Sunday to discuss the Harding situation.
USOC President Leroy Walker admits it's a tough case.
We are troubled by this incident, which seems to smack of an abridgment of the fair play concept and unfortunately, seemingly, allegedly, has been perpetrated by individuals within that same sport.
Walker says he hopes the committee will decide within a few days whether Harding should remain on the team.
In Los Angeles, officials say they've been talking with two gunmen who are holding a county worker hostage in the downtown Hall of Records.
The gunmen are suspected of being carjackers who had led police on a chase from Central California that left four people hurt.
Will there be a Beatles reunion?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, reports New Yorker magazine, which says the three surviving members of the group will get together in the studio next month.
This is AP Network News.
In pro football, the Dallas Cowboys advanced to the NFC Championship game with a playoff win over the Green Bay Packers.
That story from Chuck Kelly.
Ford Aikman threw three touchdown passes, and the Cowboys capitalized on a big turnover just before the half as Dallas beat Green Bay 27-17 at Texas Stadium.
Leading 10-3, the Cowboys recovered a fumble kickoff just seconds before the break, and Aikman's six-yard touchdown pass to Jay Novicek made it 17-3 at intermission.
Aikman's third touchdown pass of the day to Michael Irvin in the third quarter made it 24-3.
And the Cowboys move on to meet San Francisco in the NFC title game right back at Texas Stadium next week.
Chuck Kelly, Irving, Texas.
It'll be Kansas City and Buffalo in the AFC Championship game.
Quarterback Joe Montana drove the Kansas City Chiefs to three fourth-quarter touchdowns to give his team a 28-20 victory over the Houston Oilers.
More than 2,000 workers at the General Motors Assembly Plant in Shreveport, Louisiana could be back at work in a couple of days after the company and union reached a tentative contract agreement.
Employees had been on strike since January 11th, mainly over local job issues such as work speedups.
Army scientists have identified newly returned American remains from the North Korean War.
We get details from Associated Press correspondent Ken Gilio.
The Army hasn't officially released the names, but sources say the remains are believed to be those of the pilot and three crewmen of an Air Force strategic bomber that was shot down near the Chinese border in April 1951.
The investigation into their fate is raising new questions about North Korea's treatment of crew members who apparently survived shoot-down.
The preliminary IDs were made at an Army lab in Hawaii.
They must be reviewed and confirmed by Army leaders before a positive identification is declared.
The four sets of remains are among 194 that North Korea has returned the past three years.
Ken Jolio, Washington.
Mexico's president is offering amnesty to rebels in the southern state of Chiapas, where there's been violence since New Year's Day.
President Carlos Salinas de Gotari says the amnesty covers anyone who's taken part in the rebellion up until now.
Mexico City, A.C. Bill Cormier, tells us President Salinas is not saying what would happen if the rebels don't surrender immediately.
He hasn't made any threat.
He went on TV and he said there's no reason whatsoever why the rebels should not return to their communities.
However, he said that the federal government will in the next few days begin programs that will help the poor southern state of Chief.
The rebels are upset over participation in North American free trade agreements.
They say free trade will put corn and puppy profits.
Forbes magazine says Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, Utah, and Texas, also Oregon, are the states that show the best prospects for job growth in the future.
My guest from Colorado is Dr. Al Schuler, who's done a very great deal of work now since 1967, before anybody else really was doing it, on animal mutilations.
And back now to Colorado and Dr. Al Schuler.
Doctor, are you still there?
Yeah, good.
So, you had a lot of physicians come up to you after your presentation, or in the second portion of it, and talk with you.
Did any of them, or I guess a number of them, you said, admitted similar findings?
Is this or both of these areas in your view, the animal mutilations and the human abductions, are they both continuing valid areas of inquiry with regard to the possibility of the connection to UFOs?
Or, in other words, have there been, obviously you've reached no firm conclusions or none you're willing to talk about.
I plan to continue the research, and what I really have pointed out earlier is that I am allowing people, the audience, you and others, to reach your own conclusions regarding the relationship between these events and the possibility of unknown factors, including full factors.
I'm not expressing my own conclusions in this regard.
I can't give you percentages, but out of the ones that have been clearly unexplained, that have not been, that have not been predator or tragic behavior or other natural causes, I would make an off-the-compet, probably somewhere around 50%.
There have been a number of cases that have not been anything identified or anything unusual or unusual light, and other situations that have been spotted, unusual lights that are unexplained, the observation of unmarked helicopters and phones.
I'm trying to decide where to go from here with you.
I guess I will go here.
A related field, Doctor, is this cropped circle phenomenon.
And in that phenomenon, a number of researchers are discovering molecular changes in the crops that have been bent down in these crop circles associated with high heat, which they speculate may be produced by microwave energy, or that they are able to nearly or closely duplicate with microwave energy.
Is there any indication at all that the sort of cuts that have been made or high heat that's been applied to the animals is of the same nature?
The answer is, again, very difficult, and I can tell you very quickly why.
If you take tissue that is alive in any animal, be it a cat, a dog, a human, a horse, a pig, it doesn't really matter.
The changes that occur in the tissue due to heat are virtually the same.
Now, whether it's due to heat created by microwaves, lasers, unknown cutting apparatuses, electricotery, it doesn't really matter.
The changes are the same, and for anyone to come and say, this is definitely due to this particular instrument or technique is virtually impossible.
You can, however, make some relatively good conclusions regarding burned areas.
They're widespread, and supercision.
You know that the heat has been applied by a rather widespread form of heating, for example, spilling of boiling oil or the flame from a burning house that burned down, that kind of thing.
If you find a very precise line that is cut and sharp and demarcating and has the changes of high temperature, you would have to conclude that somehow it has been applied by either an apparatus or a pinpoint dedicated Blade or needle or beam that could, in fact, apply heat in a very precise fashion.
Would you think, on balance, that the incidences of this altogether are on the increase, on the decrease, or do you see a constant, fairly constant number of them?
Well, there was a pretty substantial increase at various periods in the last 20 years.
And I would say now that it's actually about a year and a half ago, there was a marked increase, then it kind of dropped off a little bit, and I think it's picking up again.
are you asking about getting Someone alone at the moment, although there are a number of veterinarians that seem to be beginning to have a little bit more of an open mind and an interest in investigational work regarding the mutilation.
The Bigelow Foundation, in an effort to get cooperation from veterinarians, has taken certain steps and is implementing a program to try to get better reporting on this, and that no doubt is going to help.
And, of course, the other thing is the time factor from the time something like this is found until somebody like yourself gets to make an examination.
The Bigelow Foundation is clearly highly supportive of the investigation.
And I think it's the only research-oriented organization that is willing to support and help establish beyond a shadow of a doubt the unusual nature of these killings.
I mean, the Bigelow Foundation has been very supportive and really, I think, instrumental to try and come to some rational and good conclusions.
Nobody else seems to be willing to do it.
And that's very encouraging to those of us that are somewhat involved with the Bigelow Foundation and Mr. Rigel himself.
I haven't gotten very much of that, but I think that may change in the future.
At the present time, I've made several trips, not a great many.
One of the biggest problems that faces me is the fact that I'm informed about these deaths days and in some cases weeks after the animals have been found.
The most important thing that can really be done is to encourage people that have these things happen to them and to their animals is to notify me immediately to make the time lapse between identification of a dead animal and examination much shorter.
In other words, with what blood there is available for you to look at, have you noticed any strange changes at all or anything remarkable about the blood?
Let me tell you what has been reported, and I haven't been at these areas long enough to witness this on my own.
But reported has been the fact that animals that would normally be predators do not go anywhere near the carcasses of the animals that have been killed.
Well, I should say, I mean, meat is meat, and I wonder what could be different about the carcass of an animal that has been affected, as you've described.
And these reports have primarily been as a result of hypnotic regression.
But you have to remember one thing that's very important regarding hypnosis, and that is there are a tremendous number of myths that are associated with hypnotic regression.
And the first one is that you can be made to do anything the hypnotherapist wants you to do.
Absolutely wrong.
You will never do anything that you don't want to do.
Secondly, you're not in a trance.
You're in a state of heightened awareness.
You're aware of everything going on around you.
And even more so than you are in complete conscious state.
Thirdly, if the subject is particularly engrossed in the purpose of the hypnosis session, or if the subject is particularly fond of the hypnotherapist and a friend or somebody that they really trust and they want to plea, confabulation under hypnosis is clearly a possibility and can be done very effectively.
And as a therapist, it takes some skill and training to be an effective and a good hypnotherapist to learn not to leave the subject and to avoid the pitfalls that would lead to confabulation.
And these are not easy.
But they're essential, especially when you get in the reports of somebody under hypnosis pain.
I saw an animal that was raised up into a blue beam 5,000 feet above the ground and then suddenly dropped.
You know, if you get that kind of information, one has to look at it with a bit of a jaunt of science there.
You have to really consider that this may or may not be true.
Well, have the animal carcasses in the cases where there was allegedly it was dropped, are they typically in a condition you would expect a carcass to be in that was dropped from, say, 5,000 feet?
They're not multifractured carcasses with bones broken from head to toe.
The reports that I'm aware of, and I'm aware of two of them, the animals have been dropped down, not just plunked, but have been dropped down.
And in one case that I know during therapy, the witness actually saw killing and torturing of the animal and described it with some emotion in terms of torturing of the animal.
And you know, I don't know whether we believe that or not.
I mean, I've seen it page.
No, it's possible.
I'm not denying that it could well be true, but I'm not saying that I know for sure it is.
You mentioned black helicopters, and we have a lot of them here in Nevada.
Many black unmarked helicopters zip about.
And I see many of them in the little valley where I live, which is close to the test site, rather, what's called Area 51.
I'm curious, this moves into the who's doing it category, and the one aspect we did not cover that you offered up was the possibility that our own government, for some unknown reason, is doing all of this.
Have you seen any evidence that would lead you to that conclusion?
I think you would be the one that really should be interviewed by me regarding unmarked helicopters.
You seem to know a lot more about it than I do.
I will tell you frankly that if you look at the facts that we know, not that we speculate about, then one can come to a reasonable conclusion.
And the facts are, first of all, that unmarked helicopters seem to predominate around these animal deaths for some unknown reason.
Secondly, are these simply a figment of the imagination of subjects, or are these in fact realities?
And if they the Air Force or the government or something of that type, because all aircraft in the United States have an end number that identifies them.
And if they're unmarked, why they're marked without marking.
They have no end number to identify them.
And if so, what are they doing there?
Are they investigating the mutilations that are being done, or are they, in fact, squeezing them?
I spoke to an investigator just within the last two days or three days that told me that, again, there's been a tremendous number of sightings of helicopters, but in only one instance does he know, and he's been involved in a lot of them.
In only one instance does he know about helicopters arriving prior to the time of the mutilation.
They all seem to occur afterward.
And I can't explain that either.
The question that you have alluded to is, are these helicopters, in fact, part of a military plot or a governmental behavior to do these mutilations?
And if so, why are they doing them?
Well, there are a number of different explanations.
One of them is, yes, the government is doing them.
My question to you is, why?
Why in the middle of the field?
The government owns a lot of property.
Why couldn't they take animals and do their chemical warfare investigation and so on in a fence-off area rather than inciting the wrath and the anger and the loss by part of the ranchers?
I think the government has incredible technology of which the public at large are unaware.
But it really seems problematic for me to envision government personnel being able to kill an animal without blood, with sharp detection, with the typical burn pattern, with demudation of bone, the findings that are so typical, and yet I cannot see how we can do it.
Maybe the government does something that I don't know about, and very likely they may.
And to me, the other thing that has been proposed, and I've heard this said, and I haven't said it, this isn't my thought, but I've heard it said time and time again, that the government is doing this because there is a reality of UFOs, and because they recognize the reality of it, they are trying to confuse the public by launching unmarked helicopters to raise questions, to try and muddy the waters with information that isn't true.
Now, I feel that if I were to be asked, and I would tell anybody this theory, if I were to be asked, well, do you really believe that UFOs exist?
My answer to you is very simple.
If you were to take every grain of sand in every beach in the entire world, think of how many grains of sand in one cup.
But if you were to take it out of every beach in the entire world, that you would not have the number of heavenly bodies in the universe by counting every grain.
Well, if it were nutritional, one would imagine they'd take the entire carcass or they would excise that nutritional aspect of it, not mutilate it the way you're telling me it's occurring.
I have seen a number of subjects with these scoop-like marks on their ankles and their lower extremities.
And I have so far only had one person who said to me that they'd be willing to have me excise it surgically to examine it and see if I could find any unusual findings in it.
And I haven't done it because she has not volunteered, in reality, just, you know, I'll give you piece of tissue.
I don't really know that she would.
But nonetheless, I have never examined the biopsy of the scoop area on the skin of a human.
So I really can't answer that with any expertise.
I simply don't know.
my suspicion from looking at them and looking at them carefully is that one would find that the covering the epithelium or the covering over the area of scoop excision would not be abnormal the only abnormality that i would Hello?
I thought you were...
No.
The only abnormality that I can envision would possibly occur would be a thinning of the tissue directly underneath the lining, which is either what we refer to as the papillary or reticular dermis.
But I don't know because I've never seen it.
It would be a very interesting thing to do, and I would like to do it.
The most common aspect of them is the heat or the type of incision or the missing blood, and that that's the most common thread that runs through them?
If I were to do this under my name, I would write the book in a completely honest and objective fashion, which is the way I'm writing it.
I'm not going to make speculation.
I'm not going to do anything dramatic.
I'm certainly not going to appeal to the nuttiness of a lot of people that are involved in the field.
If you don't believe me, that is probably the greatest and the most serious threat, I think, to the entire area of making any effort to credit the entire UFO business, is that it attracts a lot of crackpots.
A lot of people are determined to become publicly known and to develop notoriety, and they do indeed accomplish that goal, and they do it at the expense of everybody who tries to do serious research.
And if I go ahead and finish writing it, which I'm really planning on doing, it will be a book of, hopefully, of credibility, honesty, and objectivity.
I will present data that is irreputable.
You cannot deny certain things that I will publish.
I will have the proof of what I publish and welcome anybody to see it.
So I don't think I can be criticized for being honest and telling the truth.
Would you like consultation with other people who have perhaps also quietly for years done the same sort of thing?
Because one could guess there are quite a number of people like that since there have been so many incidents.
Perhaps not people that have followed it and become involved as you have, but people who have done singular or even multiple examinations and have simply kept their mouths shut.
Without asking you for specifics, because when I asked my question, it would be obvious why you would not give them, but is there anything that you have encountered that you would be hesitant to or would not even talk about here?
I had a feeling there might be.
Is this something that would be contained in the book or something that you will hold on to?
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My guest is Dr. Al Schuler, and he's in Colorado.
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Yes, I'm particularly interested in whether there's a signature to the cooking of the blood, the burn marks, the cutting tools that might have been used.
In all of the earthly technology, whatever tools are used, I would assume would have some kind of signature.
Could you comment on that, please?
So there have been any studies along that line that you may have done.
I think when you're referring to signature, you're referring to some identification of the procedure.
There certainly are signatures in that sense by human technology, for example, doing what we refer to as loop procedures that are relatively new in the last five years or so for removal of tissue in gynecologic practice.
It's pretty typical what you see.
Again, you get application of heat and very typical kind of findings.
Some of these are precisely the kind of findings that you find in the animals that have been dissected.
Laser that is used in human surgery a great deal today, in fact, very, very commonly, has a signature of its own in terms of changes that are identified microscopically, and these are not found in the animal.
These changes are very different because it's a different kind of heat, and it's over a shorter period of time, apparently, and at a significantly higher temperature, very likely.
You mentioned that you took photographs of the original 1967 incident that got you involved in all this, and then did not have them developed, but alluded to the fact that years later you may have retrieved them.
I'll tell you, I think really that Linda Howe probably would know more about this and be able to comment on it with greater expertise and knowledge than I. I know several people that have particularly sighted these helicopters, and there's one individual in the Alamosa area, actually, who's been very involved and who I've been in touch with a great deal, who has seen a lot of them.
And he has mentioned to me that they're primarily Navy.
Well, you know, the ranchers are very upset about this.
Back in the early 70s, when there were quite a few of the mutilations taking place in Los Angeles County down in Colorado, the ranchers would shoot at any airplane that flew by.
I really cannot because the animals that the case that I did examine that was pretty obviously predator had a significant odor to it, I can assure you.
I think that I have not examined enough animals at the site to really tell you from my own experience, but this is what I've heard, and I can only repeat that, but that's not first-hand evidence for me.
And I really would have to defer to Linda's expertise because she knows she has kept a little bit more of an inventory record of the unusual mutilations than I have.
But as I recall talking to her some time ago, that there was an incident or several of them of the animals.
But I'd like to, I'm wondering, when he mentions the lack of odor on these animals and also the fact that a great deal of the blood is missing, I'm assuming he's saying it's missing when they take these parts.
But what I'd like to know is, has anyone ever gone ahead and cut one of the animals up and taken pieces of the carcasses and taken them quite a distance away from where they were found and left them where they could readily be eaten by predators just to see if they would be eaten by predators?
Well, I haven't personally tried it, but I will tell you the following tale.
I don't know of anybody that has taken the animals after they've been found dead and moved them to another area that is known to be loaded with predators to see if they come near the animal.
I don't know anybody that's ever done that.
And that really is not a bad idea.
I think that's certainly a thing that should be done.
However, I know of one of the more recent mutilations that took place in Colorado in the Alamos area with cattle.
It was in a ranch where this particular rancher has now lost seven cows, which has been an expensive and devastating event for him.
And the last one, there were coyotes that came within, I don't know what the radio, I can't give you the exact feet, but very close to the carcass.
Maybe 20 or 30 people would not go to the carcass itself.
And they had seen the coyotes and they'd seen them come up and then stop and not be close to us.
And again, I am quoting Linda, and I wish that she would be able to be on the program along with me because it would be very valuable to have her input and hear her expertise.
And I think she knows of some cases where human mutilation or human death, I would rather say, have taken place under bizarre, unusual, similar circumstances.
Now, in terms of your comment of have there been any other things that have occurred to humans that are really not explained, it really comes in the area of three things.
One is the Gutmark.
And I'm not talking about the psychological effects of abduction and so on, but this has been eloquently explained by a number of other people, investigators, that have done a lot of work in the abduction area.
The second one is the area in which people have had, quote, implants.
And There have been a number of, I would like to say, claims of implants.
And I saw a presentation by a noted author in the area of UFO work who he was confused to have had an implant.
And when he showed this plant scan on the screen, I couldn't see it.
It could have easily been a part of a bone that was a little bit thickened.
I wasn't convinced that he had an implant at all, but he claimed, he swore upon God he did.
There have been a lot of people that have claimed that have had implants that have had noseplases following the event of implantation of an implant.
That's Dr. Outschuler, I guess it is, and from Colorado.
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The Bigelow Foundation has announced it will cease funding the program as of February 6th.
Therefore, that will be the last Area 2000.
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