Art Bell

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Jan. 9, 1994 - Art Bell

01:47:42

Area 2000 with Art Bell - Mark Davenport Time and Space

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22:45

clifford stone

08:25

linda moulton howe

11:08

mark davenport

57:20

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Welcome to another Area 2000, 8 o'clock Sunday night.
		This is the time.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		You're listening to a program dedicated to an examination of two major topics, UFOs and life after death.
		And we will consistently be doing that week after week.
		And as usual, we'll begin the program this morning.
		I guess I ought to tell you we've got a particularly interesting guest tonight.
		His name is Mark Davenport.
		And we're going to be getting to him right after our glimpse of yet another reality, which comes beaming all the way from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania with Linda Howe.
		So let us not waste any time.
		Get right underway.
		Linda, good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
		Well, the whole issue of are there intelligent life forms out there is a question that the Triad Research Conference is going to focus on in Sienne's Arizona on January 22nd and 22nd.
		Speakers Gedro, Professor John Mack from Harvard, Professor Jack Casher from the University of Nebraska, Yvonne Smith, a psychologist working with abductees in California, Sky Ambrose, an abductee who was on the front cover of one of the national newspaper magazines this past year, John Carpenter, the psychiatric hypnotherapist from Springfield who's been on Area 2000.
		Colin Andrews, a researcher of the cross circle mystery, and Michael Lindeman of the 2020 group in California.
		They are going to also provide an option for people attending that conference to, they call it Dine with the Researchers Banquet, in which people going to Phoenix, to this conference, will have an opportunity to sit with some of these people and talk more personally during dinner.
		They will have workshops for professionals and for people using hypnosis.
		That will be conducted by Professor Mack and John Carpenter.
		There will be a group meeting for the abduction syndrome experiencers with Yvonne Smith and Skye Ambrose.
		The conference will take place at the Sunburst Hotel and Conference Center in Scottsdale, Arizona, and the cost for the two-day event will be $50.
		For further information, people want to write this number down, they can call 417 Area Code 882-6847.
		That's coming up in about two weeks in Phoenix.
		Then for our Area 2000 listeners interested in Nellis Air Force Base's Area 51, there will be a public hearing on Monday, January 31 at 7 p.m. in Caliente in Nevada.
		The issue is whether the White Sides Mountain and Freedom Ridge above the military site should remain public land.
		The Air Force has stated that it needs to acquire the land to maintain public safety, quote unquote, without explaining what the danger is.
		Glenn Campbell, Secretary of the White Sides Mountain Defense Committee in Rafael, Nevada, would like to see everyone who opposes the Air Force acquisition of more public land to contact both the Caliente Area Bureau of Land Management, the manager there, and the state director of the Bureau of Land Management, and for everyone to attend the Caliempi hearing, again, January 31 at 7 p.m.
		Closing White Sands Mountain and Freedom Ridge would eliminate one of the few locations from which the public has been able to even try to keep an eye on whatever flies in and out of Area 51, including rumors of silver discs from an alien intelligence.
		How much the United States government knows and how long it has had knowledge about alien life forms interacting with our planet is one of the most controversial issues today.
		One man has single-handedly carried on a Freedom of Information Act battle with government agencies for several years trying to crack the secrecy.
		That man is Cooper Stone, a retired sergeant first class from the United States Army, who was based in Marsburg, Mexico.
		Sergeant Stone's interest in UFO phenomena was provoked during his military career during investigations of strange incidents he was either personally involved in or had knowledge about.
		Recently, Sergeant Stone sent documentation to his United States senators and representatives from New Mexico and to other U.S. Senators Sam Nunn and Edward Kennedy requesting that congressional hearings be organized about the issue of government suppression of information about alien life forms.
		Sergeant Stone feels strongly that the American public deserves truth about the interaction of this other intelligence, which he insists he and others have knowledge about.
		And in the following excerpts, he described for me some of his earliest discoveries in the late 1970s while in the military, including projects named Moondust and Blue Fly.
		Sergeant Stone says those projects involve the recovery of alien spacecraft and bodies.
		But so far, no government agency will confirm their existence.
		And now I'd like to play an excerpt from a man who has spent a good deal of his personal energy and money trying to get some kind of documentation to back up what he says he was exposed to during his years in the Army.
		This is Sergeant Stone.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		And what I found shocking was I knew about moon dust and blue fly back at that time.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Can you explain to our listeners what those projects are?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Project Moondust is the Air Force's overall field exploitation program for the recovery of downcorrupt based on.
unidentified		He is not a good head coach.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		You already try to be a head coach.
unidentified		I would hire him before I hired North Perth.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		I'm afraid if the Air Force's actual thing could go up and cover the type of agreement.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So what you're saying it could be satellites from, let's say, the Soviet Union that came down, or there was actually a category of unknown objects.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		And the objects of unknown origin, I find most fascinating because, if they were of Soviet origin, the Soviets would have been just as capable as we are to determine the point of impact that their state degree would have impacted the Earth.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		If we recovered that space and wave objects belonging to the Soviet Union and didn't return them, I'm sure that the Soviet Union would have fallen in official protest through the United Nations because we are a party to various UN resolutions and agreement on the return of space debris if it's a device the engineer battlefield.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So during your military duty, did you ever know for a fact or see documentation of an unknown object that fell under Private Moon dust and Private Moon Blue Flag that actually was, from your point of view, from somewhere else outside this planet?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm pretty sure we had several situations with that happen.
		I even have documentation on cases that go back into the 60s that to this day, the military, of the intelligence community, we're not talking about.
		We have a case in Pecksburg.
		I was at Lockman Air Force Base when they brought that in.
		I didn't get to see the object.
		It was covered with canvas.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		This is the one from Texburgh, Pennsylvania.
unidentified		In Pennsylvania.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		In Pennsylvania.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		It happened December 9th, 1965.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it was shaped a little bit like an acorn.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		It was shaped like an acorn.
		Everyone laughed at the way I tried to explain it.
		But to me, if you see these old fashioned concept graphics, which you mean centers, that's the best way I can identify it, seeing it under the cart, because they had it tied down tightly.
unidentified		Well, what was the either off the record or other stuff about it when you were in the military?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		I went ahead, and the individual that made it possible for me to see it was not a UFO death.
		He did not believe in UFOs.
		Due to the job that he had, he hardly be out there.
		So when he went out, his function only required him to be there maybe 15, 20 minutes.
		I got to stay in the car and parked outside of the fence line, but I could see the hangar where it went into real good from the fence line.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And this was it?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Which military installation?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Rufflin Airport Base at the time.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Which was located?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		It was located about 20 miles south of Columbus, Ohio.
unidentified		Okay.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Anyhow, when he went in there, his intent, he knew I had an interesting post, his intent was letting Seaton, and I'm sure he planned to come back out and say, see, it's a Soviet craft.
		We're going to return it to him.
		But that's not the way it came out.
		When he came out, he was white as a sheet.
		And I asked him if it was Soviet.
		And his response was, almost verbatim, was no, no, it wasn't Soviet.
		And I said, well, what was it?
		And he says, well, it's best we don't talk about it, but I'll tell you this.
		Every question you have about UFOs, the answer is underneath the canvas on the back of that trailer.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And that was from Texper, Kennedy.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Texper.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What other incidents in your military career would have brought you the closest that you could share with us and viewers that has convinced you that we're dealing with something that is not from this planet?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		The closest?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		What is incident?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Tell us about that.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		I know for a fact that there were some things that went on there.
		I know for a fact that there was official talk about identities being involved and being seen.
		I know for a fact that something set down there in the forest that was not just light reflection from the lighthouse.
		I believe some people are talking right now but still have a tendency of not wanting to talk about the enemy.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, where were you serving in the military in December of 1980 when the stranger...
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And stationed in Germany with this strange event taking place at Bentwater Air Force Base in England, how did you become involved in the investigation?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Once again, with my friend.
		Okay.
		He went ahead and picked me up on wee early morning hours of December 27th.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So this was unofficial as far as you were concerned?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		It was supposed to be unofficial, but I was supposed to be working that day.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		And I wound up not having to go to work since this was something I had an interest in, I could go with him.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And so you traveled from Germany to Bentwaters, England with this man?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		We went to England, but we also went to Lindsay Air Force Base.
		The stuff from the there were photographs, there was films, there was documentation.
		Now, who did the documentation, I'm not sure of.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what did you see in the documentation?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		The documentation was alluding to a vehicle sitting down there, that there was vehicle seen.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Also, some of the people who got to read the documentation was discussing about the entities.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And were you able to read any of this documentation, to see any of these photographs yourself?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		If that happened, I can't talk about it openly.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Can you describe from your conversations with other people your impressions of what was on those photographs?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I definitely believe that they had photographs of even the entity.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		And I also know that the tape recording that has been around within the UFO circle, that that is a very condensed version of a much longer conversation.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's try to talk about what you know from your experiences there in December of 1980.
		First, let's start with what were the descriptions, even if they were secondhand, about the entities on the photographs?
		How were they depicted?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		The description was of entities that seemed to pop out of the ship with no opening being seen.
unidentified		Appearing to be coming through the wall, that they said?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Well, white bags, they would put it, flashball type.
		Flash, they were there.
		On top of them were coming up behind, where they couldn't see.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		A flash of light, and then a being would be there.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And how was the being itself described?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		They described them as being almost between a gray and a chalkish white.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Head description?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Pardon?
unidentified		Did they give a description of the head and the torso?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		They gave the description of the torso as being slender and also the head being rather large and out of proportion to the rest of the body.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Anything about eyes?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		The eyes were of, I can't remember where they in the documentation were referring to them as being like a pear-shaped, I got that wrong, a tear-shaped with the larger portions pointing inward toward the nose, huge black eyes.
unidentified		And any indication of size?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Between three and a half to four foot tall.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		How many of these sort of popped out of the flashes of light?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		The one report from which this stuff's being taken from, from what I get from that report, there was as many as five entities.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Did you, personally, were you able to talk with anybody who was there the night that those entities flashed into appearance around this object?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		I got to talk to some people who were personally there, but I can't talk about that.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		And here's the situation I think everyone needs to know, is that even if you get out and you start talking.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Meaning out of the military.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Out of the military.
		There's certain things you feel safe to talk about.
		There's other things that you don't feel real comfortable talking about because they're not concerned about what you might say.
		They're concerned more about what you can prove.
		And when it gets to the point of you getting to an area of being able to prove certain things, that's where they get concerned.
		And they have forms that you sign.
		For confidential secret top secret, you sign, let's call it standard form 419R, a standard form 312, which is a non-disclosure statement.
		They can do bad things to you if you go ahead and discuss that material.
		But not as bad as if you discuss sensitive compartmented information.
		The 312 is only about paging away.
		If you are privy to what's called sensitive compartmented information or extremely sensitive information, which falls under the special access program, then you sign what's called a standard form 4193.
		And it's roughly five to six pages in length.
		And what they can do to you there is much, much greater than what they can do to you merely breaking information that might be confidential, secret, or top secret.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		What is so threatening to the military and the government about UFO information?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		My personal viewpoint and belief is that they're concerned about the technology falling into the hands of some other country.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I know this was long, Art, but I feel that it is so important that the fear of the human being for a person who is born in a world of human being for a person who has become a parent that is not really important.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Some kind of recovered craft that was not considered to be from here, as well as some kind of non-human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Linda, earlier you mentioned the Freedom of Information Act, and I'd like to get briefly your view on that from this perspective.
		Recently there was some nuclear testing or revelations about nuclear testing on human beings.
		And Linda, none of that came to pass really until they wanted it to come to pass.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And wouldn't you think generally that you could submit Freedom of Information Act request after request, and until they're ready for you to get something, the odds of your getting it are kind of small?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Generally, I think that's true, especially in the alien life form category.
		I was told in 1983 that all the really sensitive information was buried in the Atomic Energy Commission files under the Manhattan Project, and all of that would still be Classified under a national security concern, and none of that would be released under FOIA requests.
		However, what Sergeant Soon has done is a very practical approach.
		He knew that there were certain projects like moonbucks and blue fly that he had seen, he said, with his own eyes, and that he knew they had to do with recovery of objects both unknown and other.
		And he decided that he would at least try with the data that he knew from his own service and from other colleagues in the military, that he would at least try with as much data as he had to access under the Freedom of Information Act.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, and there's always a possibility they will slip up and let something through.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, and he's gotten enough information that he felt that he at least had a responsibility to send the material to congressional representatives.
		And now the question is, will there be any response?
		He said that in the next few months, if he does get some kind of a response from the congressional representatives, he will let me know and we can share it on Area 2000.
		Further, I think his suggestion is one that I know other researchers have shared with audiences, and that is that all of us in the United States should have a more frequent dialogue with our representatives about subjects that do concern us, that is what is supposed to be the heart of the democracy.
		And in this whole issue of government knowledge and suppression over 50 years of information concerning something as important as alien interaction with our planet, perhaps if a lot of people wrote letters to their congressional representatives from all of the states that are hearing Area 2000 and hopefully other states in the country,
		it might begin to build up a pressure that would call for some kind of response.
		But on the other hand, I also know that we're dealing with subjects that are so difficult that sometimes I put myself in the shoes of whether it's a congressional person, an intelligence person, or whoever in the government.
		And I know that this is not an easy story to tell no matter what.
		So I do also have sympathy to a certain extent with what appears to have been a policy of silence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, excellent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as usual, it was a great report, tantalizing information, and we'll have to see where it goes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Next week, if one of my sources is available, I think what I'm going to do, since I think the Bentwater story is so important, that I may do even a further in-depth for some of our listeners who may not know about the Bentwaters, and I don't have time to go into it in great depth tonight, but I think that I will go in depth on that story, and if I can, I'll do that next week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bentwaters appears to be a serious enough incident that it launched a number of researchers I know into looking into all of this.
		It's apparently that solid.
		Linda, we'll look forward to hearing from you next week, same time, same station.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Bye-bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Linda Howe.
		And consistently fascinating reports.
		And now, Mark Davenport.
		He is a lifelong student of UFO phenomena, has researched UFOs and abductions intensively for 20 years.
		He studied chemical engineering at the University of Missouri at Rola, worked as a manufacturing engineer for a number of years before becoming a full-time freelance writer in 1985.
		He is the author of several books, including Visitors from Time, which we will discuss extensively this morning, The Secret of the UFOs, which is the first in-depth analysis of evidence that UFOs warped space-time.
		His articles have appeared in several popular magazines, including Analog Science Fiction, Science Fact, UFO Universe, and UFO Magazine.
		He lectures on and debates the subjects of UFOs and abductions.
		Edits works by other ufologists and has appeared on numerous radio and television programs.
unidentified		Editor, go back to the top left.
		Yes.
		And that's what happened.
		Back to the top.
		From Jackie Tong's Pleasant downtown, this is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For the entire Western United States, this is the Talk of the West, KDWN.
		Good evening, Area 2000 in progress.
		Mark Davenport on the telephone.
		Mark Davenport, hello there.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the program.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Glad to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have written a number of works and will talk to us, I guess, about a number of things that I've been very curious about.
		Of all the things that we look into, I think one of the most fascinating for me is time travel.
		And the title of one of your works is Visitors from Time.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you become convinced that that is what UFOs are in total or part?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I believe that UFOs represent a widespread different phenomena.
		I don't think that it's any one particular phenomenon that we're seeing here.
		I think we're seeing a very complex grouping of lots of different phenomena.
		But I think that after you separate out the hoaxes and the hallucinations and the misperceptions of common objects like airplanes and weather balloons and so forth, I think you're left with a lot of reports of things that we have trouble explaining.
		And I think that many of these are probably craft that are piloted and that utilize Some sort of a generator or some sort of machine, or possibly even this may be even done telekinetically, you know, with the mind, but somehow or other, these people are able to warp space-time in much the same way that a black hole might warp space-time.
		And that's how they arrive here from other places, not only other planets, but possibly other stars, other galaxies, other dimensions that coexist with ours, including even our own future or in our own past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think, again, you think it may be all of these together, they may be arriving from other actual times and other actual places, both?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, if you're actually able to warp space-time, and let me just lay this out a little bit here.
		You know, Einstein said back in 1905 that space and time are interdependent, and together they form a four-dimensional continuum that we call space-time, and the presence of matter warps the space-time continuum.
		He said that the greater the mass, the greater the curvature.
		And as we've found out since then, these black holes, they actually warp space-time so much that it turns inside out and time runs backwards there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it be possible, without actually entering a black hole, to simply skim the event horizon and experience this?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to Dr. Frank Tipler, he says that, yes, this could be done.
		He says that if you were able to bring a number of rotating black holes together, rotating neutron stars together somehow, you could actually build a working time machine.
		Now, Craftsman doesn't make any tools big enough to do that sort of work.
		I think that it's obvious that these people in these UFOs, their technology is so far advanced from ours that they make us look foolish sometimes.
		And I think that their technology is advanced enough that they have learned how to do this more easily than using things like neutron stars.
		I think they have learned enough about physics to be able to do it much more easily than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me back up with you a little bit.
		What is it?
		Is it any one thing or is it many things?
		What convinces you that this whole UFO phenomenon is real, that we really are being visited?
		If I were to ask you for the best evidence that you have, or what convinced you, what would you say?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've gone far past that.
		The UFOs being real.
		I did a debate this year earlier in Kansas City where that's what we talked about.
		And we had a tremendous amount of evidence and masks here.
		We have not only things like burned circles of grass and soil that's been calcified and broken tree branches and scars on the people and pavement that's been lit on fire and,
		of course, thousands of photographs and thousands of feet of videotape and thousands of feet of film and so on and so forth, even including the implanted devices that have been removed from abductees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is the weight of a lot of evidence.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there is a tremendous amount of evidence to show that UFOs are real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, Mark, you are in right now Gulf Breeze, Florida, is that correct?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
		I'm on Pensacola Beach, right out on the Gulf.
		And we just came in from the beach.
		We were watching, sky watching, hoping to see one of the craft that they see here often.
		They've even named it here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		They call it Bubba.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bubba.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		Bubba.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And I've just gave a lecture here for the local Bufan group today.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And some of the people who attended the lecture have had as many as 180 sightings of a craft here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you have the opportunity, Mark, to see any photographs?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we saw some astounding videotape for a couple of hours last evening that the people here showed us, and some of it was quite dramatic.
		And they saw these things from a number of different locations.
		They were able to triangulate and find out how high the objects were and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does anybody in Gulf Breeze have any good reason for why Gulf Breeze is opposed to anywhere else?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's all speculation, of course.
		People have speculated many different reasons.
		One of the reasons why they appear to be here is a fellow named Defense.
unidentified		But Tom Kodelski comes out of nowhere, one of the leading stores in the league.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Now he'd trade him away and got out of the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's going on in that fire?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To me, what's strange about this?
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		He was here for now.
unidentified		Another one that just came out about three weeks ago, which I had an official game for effectively.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		It appears that Ed sees these more often than other people, and sometimes they seem to appear out of nowhere when he happens to be there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's been a lot of controversy surrounding him.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's your feeling regarding his credibility?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was unable to meet him when I was here.
		I was hoping to meet him, but he didn't come to the presentation, and I didn't get a chance to meet him.
		But I do know that some very good experts have studied some of the photographs that he has taken and have pronounced them genuine as much as they're able to do.
		Bruce McAbee has looked at these things and has said that he can't figure out how these things could have been faked.
		And of course, we have lots of other photographs here in this same area that were taken by other citizens here who some of them didn't even know Ed Walters, and they were taken with different cameras at different times, and they looked the same.
		And we also have a great deal of testimony from people that they have seen things here on a number of different occasions.
		I mentioned a while ago that one couple here, the Morrisons, have seen UFOs on 180 different occasions.
		Wow.
		And on most of those occasions, Ed Walters was not anywhere near.
		So, yes, I'm convinced that they are seeing some kind of anyone here.
		They could be some military craft that's highly secret and that we don't know about.
		They could be alien.
		They could be something else that we are unable to even conjecture what they are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a military base close enough to offer an explanation of that sort where the secret stuff goes on?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there's Eglin Air Force Base is close here.
		But that's the case.
		You'll find that in most of the country, there will be a military base close by just about any place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		All right, well, let us once again jump forward.
		In the little things we ought to talk about here, they've got a section where it talks about 100,000 mile per hour flight, 180 degree turns without sound or damage.
		Well, obviously if human biological animals went through that, they would be a puddle of biological soup.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Right, that's right, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how in the world could that ever be done?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, if these things have some kind of generator aboard or whatever it is, something that creates a field around the craft that warps space-time, then that craft is totally enveloped in that field so that it's carrying its own little private universe around with it.
		It's outside of our normal space-time.
		And it's sort of like the idea of a fly flying around inside your car, and you're traveling down the road at 70 miles an hour, or 65 if you want to be legal, and this fly is just buzzing around your car.
		It has no idea that you're going that fast because it's totally encased inside the car.
		When you slam on the brakes because someone turns in front of you, the fly still buzzes around, totally unconcerned about what's happening outside.
		Even though the air outside is rushing by at 65 miles per hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good analogy.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And I think that probably this is the same way with these craft.
		They're inside this little bubble, this little private universe that's outside of our normal space-time.
		And inside that, it could be that even though it appears to us they're traveling at, say, 20,000 miles per hour, they may actually, to them, they may be traveling at 20 miles per hour.
		And so when they appear to stop instantaneously in reverse direction and travel 20,000 miles an hour in the other direction, it could be that they're making a leisurely turn and going back at 20 miles per hour to them.
		See, time is relative.
		That's one of the things that Einstein tried to tell us a long time ago and that we're only just learning today, is that time is relative.
		Time is not what we think it is at all.
		In fact, it does not even exist as we think of it.
unidentified		It is an abstract principle.
unidentified		It is an abstract principle.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you really think about it when I look at the future, but the climate is so strong.
		That's not really the case at all.
		In fact, as early as 1980 in Other Worlds, Dr. Paul Davies pointed out that he said that there seems to be no strong reason for supposing that the flow of time is any more than an illusion produced by brain processes and the perception of rotation during dizziness.
		In other words, he's saying that the stream of time is an artifact of our own consciousness.
		And so that, and this is exactly what a lot of people who have been contacted who claim to have been taken up into these ships.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that makes it quite a mass delusion, then, doesn't it?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it does.
		It does.
		But according, now this is quantum physics.
		This is not some far-out new age idea.
		This is something that's coming from the cutting-edge people in our universities who are studying subatomic particles, and this is what they're finding out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, I once saw an intriguing movie about time in which it was kind of a romance, and I can't recall the name of it.
		I keep thinking of time after time, but that wasn't the one, in which a man thought himself, literally thought himself into the past.
		And what you have just described would seem possible if what you're saying is correct.
		That would seem possible that you could, with your own mind, if you knew how to do it, travel in time.
		How do you react to that?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I think it could be possible.
		I've recently been reading a book called The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot, in which he describes something similar to that.
		Dr. Fred Allen Wolfe has a book called Parallel Universes, in which he describes what quantum physicists are finding out about the nature of the universe and about time.
		And what they are finding out is that when they do studies with photons and studies with subatomic particles, the observer in their experiments actually flavors the experiment or actually determines what happens in the experiment.
		It's hard to describe, but they've done experiments to show that actually it is our own mental processes that are creating the outcome of some of these experiments.
		And so what they're extrapolating from that is that collectively and individually we actually create our own reality.
		And of course, if we are not the only beings in this universe, if there are others, then they're probably helping us and working with us and against us As far as that creation is concerned.
		Now, I know that's a pretty abstract way of thinking about things, but once again, this isn't something far-out new age.
		This is quantum physics.
		And what I've learned is that ufologists don't know about quantum physics.
		Physicists don't know about ufology.
		And the metaphysicians, the people who have been studying metaphysics and telling us for centuries that this is the way things are happening, don't know about either one of them and haven't until recently.
		And they seem to all be converging on this one point.
		And the point is that space-time can be warped, it can be distorted, it can be changed, it is elastic and linear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then it seems to me we could perhaps yield a very great deal by getting these groups together for sort of a let's talk about it sort of session.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has anybody done that or is that underway now?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, yeah, that is being done to more of an extent now than it was in the past.
		I, for instance, have started the newsletter called Contact Forum, and the whole point of the newsletter is to get people to communicate with one another.
		You know, we have in ufology we have a bunch of factions.
		We have channelers who say that they're getting information from somewhere out there, and they're telepathically receiving this information and writing it down, and they're sharing it with each other, with other channelers.
		But the Nuts and Bolt topologists, up until very, very recently, have not even looked at this information because they consider it to be unvalid because it's not, you know, they can't put it in a jar and put it on a shelf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, but you know, Mark, more and more with the people that I've interviewed, like yourself, in the last couple of months, I've found people turning to this same sort of area.
		So there's a movement underway in the UFO community, and not by everybody, but by now, I think, more significant numbers than ever.
		And you're about the fourth or fifth guest I've had that's talked about this sort of area.
		So you're beginning to get some company.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I think that's true, and we're finding that with the newsletter, we're finding that we're getting people from all different angles, people with different perspectives, to join the discussion and to listen to what other people have to say.
		We have people who consider themselves contactees, those who consider themselves abactees, and they're talking to therapists and to investigators and researchers, and sharing all these different viewpoints.
		And I think my idea, and the idea of Anne Meyer at Wildfire Press, when we started this, was to just shake the trees and let all the leaves come down.
		The ones that are truthful and the ones that aren't, and then we hope to end up with the truth in the end with that.
		So I really think that's a good approach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the nuts and bolts work has been going on for a long time, Mark, and sometimes when you don't find something, you've got to figure you might be looking in the wrong place.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's one of the things that I told people at my presentation today, that back in the 70s, when I really got into this plot and heading, even before that, when I was 10 years old, I saw my first UFO.
		And at that time, that was in 1962.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I talk you into getting a little closer to the phone?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, can you hear me better now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's so much better.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		At that time, we had been studying these things for many years already, 15 or 17 years, and we still hadn't come up with any good answers.
		People had assumed that since they didn't seem to be from here, they must be from out there somewhere, but they didn't know where for sure.
		That was about the same time that Betty and Barney Hill were abducted in New Hampshire, and Betty asked her captors where they were from, and they showed her a star map.
		And Marjorie Fish, of course, compared the stars' positions in that map.
		Betty drew a representation of it under hypnosis, and Marjorie compared those with known star patterns.
		And she thought that maybe they came from the reticulum system, Zeta 1 or Zeta 2 reticuli.
		Well, that explained that particular sighting quite well, but it didn't answer a whole lot of the other questions.
		For instance, how is it that these people are able to interbreed with us as they appear to do?
		Why do so many of them look like this?
		How could there be so many, you know, Jacques Vallet has estimated that they may have landed here as many as 3 million times.
		And if they're all coming from 37 light years away at that other star system, how could that possibly be?
		And there are lots of other things that it didn't explain, like why do they come more often on Wednesdays than other days and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that so?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you study large statistical studies of these things, the large statistical segments of data, you find out that if you plot these on a graph, you find out that there are more seen on Wednesday than any other day.
		There are more seen on Tuesday and Thursday than there are on Monday and Friday, and so forth.
		And that wouldn't make any sense to me if they're coming from light years away.
		There probably aren't any Wednesdays in that other star system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but there may be a parallel reference of time of some sort.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's possible, too, but there are other things, like I mentioned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you share a few of the numbers with us?
		In other words, Wednesday, by how many?
		Or what percentage?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think it's enough to be significant.
		It's like it's a couple of more percents on Wednesday than on any other day.
		It's not a huge spike in the curve, but it is statistically significant.
		And we also go into other things, like they're seen more often in July, than in September, than another month, often on the 24th, than any other particular day of the month, and so forth.
		We also found in many cases the UFOs are seen in one particular state and not in neighboring states, as if they're observing state Boundaries.
		And some of these things indicate to me that these things might possibly be human-oriented.
		They might be from our own future, for instance.
		In those cases, they would have reason to observe our own times and our own calendars and our own state boundaries and our maps and so forth.
		They would be able to intervene with us.
clifford stone ▲ ● ▼		They would be able to walk in our gravity without problems.
unidentified		They would breathe our air without worrying about viruses and so forth.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		But people from other planets probably would not.
unidentified		They would be probably frightened to death to try to breathe our air for their environments and so forth.
		Sure.
		Mark, this is an anti-present, but it relates to time.
		Is there anybody in the United States knowing any serious work beyond the possibility of time travel?
		Is there anybody?
		Oh, yes, I think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about nuts and bolts work here.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, as a matter of fact, there's a certain man I met at Eureka Springs conference earlier this year.
		His name is Dr. David Cruni.
		And David is a field propulsion engineer.
		He is one of the people who is trying to duplicate the things that the UFOs do.
		And he told me after he read my hypothesis about warping space-time, he said, yes, that's what I'm talking about.
		And he said, our calculations show that there is no reason why, once we learn how to do this, we shouldn't be able to travel at literally a million times the speed of light.
		Because we're not actually traveling through the intervening space at all.
		We are stepping outside of normal space-time and stepping back into it at other coordinates.
		In a case like this, he said it would take much longer to get out of the Earth's atmosphere than it would to travel from here to, say, Alpha Hurry or a nearby star.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, I've got to ask, stay close to that telephone.
unidentified		important.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it...
		I've heard...
		Somebody else said it this way to me.
		That if you think of space as kind of a long ribbon, and you were to take that ribbon and double it back on itself and then jump from one point of the ribbon to the other, you would have traveled a very great distance literally instantaneously.
		Is that a good analogy?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		In fact, I've seen Bob Lazar use that same analogy with the dollar bill and place a pencil at one end and say now...
		Now, there are two ways to get to the other end.
		You can draw a line along the length of this bill, or you can fold the bill over and then turn the power off, and you're pointed at the other end instantaneously.
		And we believe that that's probably how this is done.
		Now, a lot of people who have been contacted and claim to have been taken aboard these ships say exactly that.
		They say that they have been trained, they have been taught what the nature of time is.
		And they say that the people use analogies.
		For instance, Leah Haley, who you may have heard of, was told that time, that space-time, you can think of it as a slinky.
		The child's toy looks like a spring.
		Think of it as looking like that and behaving like that, so that it's in looping rings all the time.
		And there are different dimensions, and each one is a different slinky, and they're kind of lined up together there.
		And there are places where they overlap.
		And you can go to those places and go into a different time, and you can travel backwards and forwards at different rates, different curvatures, and so forth, and then come back to your own dimension.
		And so that you're able to effectively travel, as I said, to fold space-time around you and then return to it at other coordinates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, you mentioned the fact there was research in this area going on.
		Do you know if anybody has actually had any sort of mentionable success at all?
		even private words given to you that you could share with us?
unidentified		Right.
		And the time that we did, I mentioned, is that we're going to talk about the fact that you guys are actually getting old care about.
		And this is a good example.
		I think that's a good example.
		He provides that nature being traveling before must be constructible if parallel worlds exist.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And then he says, assuming that the general theory of relativity is correct, then time machines and parallel universes must exist.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And he goes on to talk more about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, boy, I'd sure love to know how far it's been developed and what's been done.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, Carol Alley, Oleg, Jakubiewitz, and William Wicks verified the existence of backward through time travel at the University of Maryland in 1985.
		They performed some photon experiments.
		You may have heard of this, where they had an experimental setup where they had two slots, and they passed a photon through one or the other slots, and they didn't determine which one it was until after the very last nanosecond.
		And what they were trying to prove is that the photon was either a particle or a wave, so that it either went through one slot or the other.
		And what they found out is that it is both.
		And this presented a paradox to them, because in order to be both, then it had to travel backwards in time so that it could go through both slots at the same time.
		But nevertheless, this is what they found.
		And of course, it astonished them, and it has astonished a lot of the people who have since duplicated the same experiment and come up with the same results.
		And what it tells them is that the nature of time is not what we think it is at all.
		And that since These particles can apparently travel backwards in time, then anything can travel backwards in time once you are able to build a machine that's able to accomplish that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, here's a fairly standard question.
		If indeed it is possible, then the question is: well, then why haven't we been visited by many travelers in time?
		To which I can imagine your answer might be, we are being visited.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		I think we are being visited now.
		I think we have been visited throughout our history.
		And I think that our visitors were probably here before we were here.
		They may have even had something to do with our genesis, with our beginnings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you feel that their experiments, and I should tell you we're coming close to a break here at the top of the hour, but do you feel that their interest in us is genetic?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the interest of some of them is genetic because they've obviously taken lots of people aboard and subjected them to procedures that appear to have something to do with our genetics.
		They're taking sperm samples, they're taking eggs, they appear to be trying to interbreed with us.
		And so they're very interested in our reproduction and in our genetics.
		There could be lots of different reasons for this.
		As I mentioned before, if they're able to warp space-time, now this probably means that they can literally be coming here from millions of different places, different planets from everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Also different dimensions, including our own future and their own past.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mark, I've got to ask that you hold tight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a five-minute break here at the top of the hour, and we'll be right back to you.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fabulous interview.
		Mark Davenport.
		We're talking about visitors from time, and we're talking about time.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonz Pleaser downtown.
		This is KEWN, Las Vegas.
		AT Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Mark Davenport, all the way back to Gulf Breeze, Florida.
		And Mark Davenport, we're talking about time travel.
		We're talking about the secrets of the UFOs, how they do what they do, and much more.
		Mark, are you still there?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		Good.
		Fascinating stuff.
		I want to jump ahead to something, and then we're going to come back again to time travel.
		But I want to ask you about the men in black.
		I've been wanting to ask a number of guests about that, and I see that it's one of your categories of interest.
		So who are they?
		What do they do?
		Where are they from?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably a number of your listeners have had a UFO sighting.
		They've seen one of these things.
		Maybe they've been driving down a backcountry road in the middle of the night, and they saw one of these things and didn't know what it was.
		They went home, went to bed, never told a soul about it.
		And the next day, some men in black suits come and knock on their door, and they say, you didn't see a UFO last night.
		And besides, don't tell anybody.
		These are the men in black.
		They're very enigmatic characters who do all sorts of strange things like this.
		Generally, they threaten people.
		They want any evidence that you may have, especially photographs or pieces of metal or anything like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but the key is these are men in black, human-appearing men?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, they appear, usually they appear to be strange in some way.
		Sometimes they don't appear to have any pores in their skin, and their skin is not the right color for flesh.
		Sometimes they're wearing sunglasses and hats pulled down low and collars pulled up high so that they're as if they're trying to cover up their real appearance.
		Sometimes they appear to have trouble breathing, as if their atmosphere is not right, and so forth.
		But generally, they appear humanoid.
		They have two arms, two legs, two eyes, and so forth.
		But they're almost always dressed in black.
		And they almost always have the same sort of a pattern.
		They try to tell people not to talk about their sighting, and they try to convince people that they didn't even have a sighting, and if there is any evidence, they try to take it away.
		Now, what I'm contending in my book is that if these people, if these men in black are connected with the phenomenon, with seeing the UFOs, if the UFOs are from another planet, it doesn't really make sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know if it makes sense to me anyway, because if somebody knocked on my door, strange-looking, trying to convince me I didn't see what I was sure I saw, that would instead reinforce my belief that I saw what I saw.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would think so, but apparently what they try to do is intimidate these witnesses into not talking about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that might work.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and my hypothesis is that possibly some of these things are from our own future, and because of that, when people see them and they're trying not to be seen, then they can find out about that, and they can go back into time, and they can convince people not to talk about their sightings so that it doesn't create paradoxes.
		You know, the old paradox about what if you go back into time and you make sure that your grandfather and grandmother never met one another?
		What happened to you?
		Would you cease to exist?
		Well, we're not really sure if, according to quantum physics, there are parallel universes, so it could be that you only ceased to exist in that one particular universe that you did that action.
		But we don't really know what paradoxes could happen.
		And so if people do develop the ability to travel through time, and some people claim that we already have done that, then there's going to have to be some sort of control.
		There'll have to be some sort of, call it a cosmic police force, if you will, that will have to go back and fix the things that people mess up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, is there not also the theory that time is somewhat elastic?
		In other words, if you were to go and do something that would cause a change or a paradox to occur, that even though there would be a temporary disruption, The flow would return anyway.
		In other words, maybe the couple divorced, and then the marriage between the two people that were supposed to be married to produce you would occur.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I have heard that in science fiction, but I've seen no evidence to support that from either physics or metaphysics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so then the standard scientific theory then is a paradox could be a catastrophic event.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Could be, yes.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And in fact, if you'll remember Alfred Bielick, who claims that the Philadelphia experiment, I'm sure you've heard of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have interviewed Al Bielick.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		He says that this ship, the USS Eldridge, was transported inadvertently from 1943 to 1983.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		In that story, and of course this is a very bizarre, far-out story, but Bielick is not the only person who claims that it did happen that way.
		According to him, the reason that they had to go smash the equipment aboard this Eldridge is so that a wormhole that they had inadvertently created between 1943 and 1983 could be destroyed so they wouldn't swallow everything up.
		They didn't know what the consequences of this might be if they didn't stop it, nip it in the bud, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any view, by the way, on the credibility of all that?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, Belick is the first to admit that since he has been brainwashed following the secret government project, that he's not sure if his memories are correct or not.
		Preston Nichols, who wrote the Montauk Project, which is about the other end of this, the 1953 end, he will tell you the same thing.
		He's not really sure if the memories are correct or not.
		But there are several people now who are coming forward to say that, yes, something like this did happen.
		There was something wrong with time.
		People were messing around with time.
		They were also messing around with things like mind control and some really bizarre technology.
		So I think that something strange did happen.
		We don't know if it happened just as Belick said or not, but something did happen, and time was involved with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to talk about the government cover-up a little bit, but I want to preface my question about the government cover-up with the following.
		Recently, our government began revealing to us something that I think almost no American would have believed, and that is that our own government gave shots with radioactive material, plutonium, very poisonous material, injected American citizens.
		Now, I hear all the time, Mark, people saying, well, the government could not possibly cover up.
		It's not efficient enough.
		Rumors would get out.
		The government could never cover up this whole UFO business.
		But in fact, we have recent evidence that they've covered up something incredible.
		So why not?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have two answers to that.
		First of all, the government didn't cover up the UFOs.
		We've known about it all along.
		You and I know about it, and so does a good portion of the population.
		So they haven't covered it up.
		It's not a secret.
		It's only a secret to people who don't want to believe in UFOs.
		The second, and of course, the Roswell crash has now been almost 100% proven.
		There are hundreds of witnesses.
		And so it really isn't a secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And even though it's sort of an open secret, the fact of the matter is they still don't admit it, and they still laugh it off, and they still deride people who say the kind of things you're saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there is a cover-up that continues, even though everybody knows it.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely.
		But it's interesting, you know, the U-2 spy plane did not exist, according to the government, years after the thing was flown and even been captured.
		The SR-71 Blackbird did not exist officially.
		And in fact, Area 51 does not exist officially.
		If you try to delve into the official records and find out about that area in Nevada where these planes were developed and where now we're talking about the Aurora plane that's a Mach 7 or something like that is supposedly being developed, they don't even admit that the facility exists.
		So it is a standard government procedure to lie about things like this.
		It's a standard procedure.
		And of course, you're talking about the people who are injected with radiation.
		it's common knowledge that the c_i_a_ for years uh...
		gave people l_s_d_ they have uh...
		our government has uh...
		Yes, we didn't know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We didn't know it.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And God only knows what it is that they're keeping from us that they don't want us to know.
		The government is very good at keeping secrets.
		The Manhattan Project, for instance, was kept a secret.
		And we have all sorts of technology of weaponry that is a secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I don't think they have any problem with keeping this a secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And even, as you point out, when it's openly known, they don't admit it.
		I lived for many years on the island of Okinawa, out in the Pacific, and every single day and night, many times, KC-135 tankers would take off and refuel B-52s that were en route to Vietnam.
		Now, every day, the Okinawan press, the television stations, would go out and they would actually film the 135s taking off.
		And they would go on the air with it the next day.
		This went on for years.
		And they would get a military spokesman who, while he was denying it, saying, absolutely not, they're not on the island, the video of the 135 taking off would be on the screen.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's true.
		That's the standard procedure.
		That's the way governments work.
		That's the way military works.
		And anyone who's ever been involved in any intelligence agency will tell you that that's one of the first lessons that they learn: is that if you deny things often enough, people will believe the denial, and that's the objective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, precisely.
		What is it, Linda Cortill?
		Or is it Linda Cortil, I guess, Tyler?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		That's not her real name.
		Bud Hopkins gave her that name to protect her true identity.
		Cortila, I think, is the way he pronounced it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cortila.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is her character?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		That's a fascinating case.
		She was supposedly abducted from her 12th-story Manhattan apartments by being taken through the closed window of her apartment and levitated to a hovering flying saucer outside.
		There were other witnesses to this.
		There was a woman on the Brooklyn Bridge who was, her car was stopped and she saw this.
		There were two security men who were taking some kind of government VIP to a Gila port for transport, and their car stalled, apparently, and they saw this happen.
		And at first, Bud Hopkins did not realize this.
		When the girl came to him and told him that she'd had this abduction experience, he kind of filed it away with all the other hundreds that he gets and didn't think that it was anything too unusual until he had these other independent witnesses come and tell him about a similar experience.
		And when he started putting the dates together, he found that they matched.
		So this made it very, very important, not just because there were multiple witnesses, but because one of them was a very important government official.
		And the interesting part about this to me is that Bud has been criticized for accepting some of the testimony in this for the reason that there is a dock that should be in view of the apartments.
		It's a dock where workers, I think it's a newspaper, a place where newspapers are made.
		And these workers should have been out on the dock at that time and they should have been able to see this thing.
		If my hypothesis is correct, it could be that one of these UFOs could be right in front of your eyes.
		And if it's encased in this field, enveloped in it, it could be invisible.
		Under certain conditions, it could be invisible.
		So that the people who were in other directions and who were at different, at further distances or nearer distances may have been able to see something there, whereas the dock workers may have seen nothing.
		Recently, Bob Lazar, who says that he was employed to reverse engineer these things, he was asked a question up at the little alien there near you.
		If you had one of these things and you had this gravity field around it, and you had the field to such an extent it was strong enough that you could actually bend light around it, could it become invisible?
		And he said, yes, it is.
		He says, if you're underneath the thing and you're looking directly up at it, you see the sky above it.
		He says that he's seen this from actual experience.
		So it could be that something like that did happen.
		There's another case that Bud's working on right now, the so-called Washburn family in Australia, where a man was taking photographs of his family on the beach, and they disappeared.
		And during their disappearance, apparently they were abducted for a period of a couple of hours.
		Meanwhile, nobody on the beach noticed anything, even though the father was down there frozen in time with his finger on the shutter of the camera.
		And so, once again, you have a situation where nobody really saw anything, and nevertheless, the abduction did occur.
		So it could be that it isn't so much that they are invisible, that they appear to be invisible because you could see right from behind the craft.
		It could be right in front of the craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there seems to be a strong fear that one way or the other, gravity is a factor in the propulsion system of these craft, or if it's time travel, again, that large magnetic fields are produced.
		There should be large amounts of electromagnetic radiation occurring in the vicinity of these craft or in the path of their travel.
		And one would imagine that that could be detected and measured.
		And if that could be done, I'm leading you down a big road here, Mark.
		Why couldn't a person put together some sort of device that would warn of large electromagnetic radiation, almost an alarm?
		Does that make any sense?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, euphologists have been doing that since probably the 60s.
		They have been building these little magnetometers and having them on their front porches.
		And whenever the things go crazy, they go out and look for UFOs, and often they see them.
		So as far as that's concerned, yes, there are electromagnetic fluctuations that occur in the vicinity of these things.
		Now, some of the points that I've tried to make is that UFOs appear to have the ability to emit electromagnetic radiation of all different frequencies, from the lowest wavelength of radio waves up through microwaves, infrared, the whole total visible spectrum, ultraviolet, X-rays, gamma rays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they shift through it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do they shift through those spectrums, or are they in all spectrum simultaneously?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, at times they shift from one to the other.
		At times, they're radiating different spectrums at once.
		It's kind of an electromagnetic soup of all different sorts of things.
		But it appears to me that it could be that almost all of this radiation, you see, electromagnetic waves, whether it be radio waves or gamma rays or anything in between, are exactly the same except for the wavelength.
		In other words, the frequency, the distance between one sine wave peak and the next.
		And so if these things are surrounded by this field that warps space-time, then They could have just simple heat being radiated from them, and as it goes through that field, the field itself could have a Doppler effect on it.
		It could actually change the wavelength of that so that it's a different frequency.
		So that sometimes when we see these things at night and they're glowing so brightly, we're seeing all kinds of different colored light displays and so forth.
		It could be that we're seeing nothing more than the heat that is subject to a Doppler effect from all of these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, absolutely fascinating.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Of course, we have also measured all different frequencies of radiation.
		There have been many cases where people have been sunburned.
		You may remember the Cash Landrum affair down in Texas where the percipients, they not only had ultraviolet, they were sunburned, but they also appeared to be subjected to either gamma rays or X-rays, some kind of hard radiation.
		They had radiation sickness and were hospitalized off and on for a period of years after that.
		There have been other cases where people have been subjected to extreme heat.
		There were a couple of centuries atop a fort in, I believe it was Brazil, back in the 50s, too.
		They had stripped their clothes off.
		They were screaming because they were on fire.
		They were so hot, which could either be large doses of either infrared or microwaves.
		There have been many cases where radio waves have been detected.
		When one of these things is near, you can have a radio and throughout all bands of the radio, there's nothing that's static.
		There have been cases where even gamma rays apparently have been detected.
		Some of the gun camera films aboard the Air Force planes that chase these things, even though they never open the shutters on the gun cameras, all the film approach inside.
		And so all frequencies of radiation have been detected.
		Now, how do they do that?
		Do they have some kind of transmitter in there that transmits all frequencies?
		And it's a wry.
		So I think that's probably what we're seeing is some kind of a Doppler effect coming through that field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a large magnetic field, a very large and powerful magnetic field, would probably radiate on most frequencies, wouldn't it?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Oh, not necessarily.
		And also, if we had television, it's the common theory that GFOs are nothing but big magnets.
		They are riding on the Earth's magnetic lines of force.
		You know, you've seen the demonstration where you take a piece of paper, put a magnet under it, and sprinkle iron filings on it.
		You can see these little lines of force on the paper.
		And the Earth has, it's just a big magnet, the North and South Pole, and it has these lines of force.
		For a long time, people thought that these things were magnets, and they were traveling along those lines.
unidentified		And the reason they were spinning boats, were electromagnetic, currently.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		So the field, it's been calculated how strong the field would have to be to do that.
		And in order to do that, you know, when these things stop cars, for instance, on the highway, the magnetic field would have to be so strong that it would not only leave residual magnetism, it would not only leave a signature in the metal, but it would also bend the metal itself.
		It would blow out all the circuits in all the radios, and incidentally it would blow out the fuses in power grids that were nearby and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Almost like the EMF effect.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and we have not found that to be the case.
		We've measured the cars that have been subjected to this and found that the magnetic signature is no different from another make and model that's the same.
		We have also found that the cars can start by themselves after they've been stopped.
		And this is more common than most people realize.
		In some cases, the drivers, you know, they're driving along this back road at 3 o'clock in the morning, and if they see this light, and it starts to worry them, and pretty soon the light comes down and lands in front of them.
		Their headlights dim and they go out and their engine dies and then the whole car is dead, and there they sit with their mouth open looking at a UFO in the middle of the road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps a stupid question, but is there any difference between those people with modern cars and computer ignition systems versus the older?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't think any studies have been done about that, but I know that this is still happening.
		It was happening in the 50s and it's happening now, so I would assume that probably that doesn't really have that much of an effect.
		But what we find is these people, they sit there for a period of, they're not sure, maybe a few minutes or even an hour or so.
		And then when the UFO leaves, the car starts running by itself.
		And sometimes if they're not paying attention, they can be in danger of having a wreck.
		They have to grab a hold of the steering wheel quickly because the car starts going down the road again.
		And we've had the same thing happen with the power grid.
		There were cases in Argentina where UFOs overflew a city and all the lights in the city went out.
		And as the UFO left, the lights came back on, which is fine, except the power company officials never could figure out how that would happen because the power grid was designed in such a way that once it went out, it had to be restarted manually from several different locations by technicians.
		And of course, the technicians weren't even aware of it yet.
		Now, the same thing happened in Kuwait a long time before Desert Storm.
		There was a case where a UFO flew over some automatic oil pumping equipment, the type that was destroyed during the Gulf War.
		Stuff is designed so that it cannot come back on by itself for safety purposes.
		You know, if a pipe ruptures or something like that, you don't want the equipment to come back on and pump the oil out on the ground.
		But nevertheless, it stopped while the UFOs were there, and it started up by itself without any help from any technicians.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then again, a question.
		Back to the power companies.
		Mark, I'm a ham radio operator, so I know something about this.
		During solar eruptions, severe solar eruptions, power companies experienced surges in long lines that sometimes Will kill power.
		So, in other words, the energy from the sun during that eruption is sufficient to actually disrupt power companies.
		The kind of radiation that you're talking about is so tremendous that presumably, if you were to look at power company anomalies, you might be able to come up with something.
		What about that?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that may be true.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		In some cases, the disruption could occur because of radiation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, they keep fairly careful records, don't they?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		No, I can't speak for them.
		I'm sure that every power company is different.
		But I can say that I believe that most of these interruptions are not occurring because of large doses of radiation.
		I think they're probably occurring because a field that's warping space-time is coming in the vicinity of a trunk line.
		And I think that it's just, it's kind of like time is different inside that field.
		And if the field comes into contact with the line, then the electricity flowing through the line is flowing at a different rate than it normally does.
		So it slowed down tremendously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So to us, it disappears.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		The lights go out.
		There is electricity flowing, but it's flowing very sluggishly.
		Instead of flowing like water, it's flowing like honey or molasses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold that thought, Mark, for just a second while I ID the radio station.
unidentified		From Jane Gonz Pleaser downtown.
unidentified		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With Area 2000 for a Sunday evening, I'm Mark Belt.
		Good evening.
		My guest is Mark Davenport.
		We're talking about time, visitors from time, UFOs, how they travel, how they do what they do, and what might be.
		All right, Mark, are you still there?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway, I was just, my comment about that, Mark, was just that it might be a fertile area of research for somebody to start looking into power company surge records or for any anomalies, particularly the wire system, because we've noticed something like that.
unidentified		So I think that's true.
unidentified		So we set up a worldwide or even a nationwide work of...
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I would say fairly accurate to a central computer somewhere so that we can actually track the movements of these things as they, you know, apparently they create a temporal anomaly.
		Probably a good place to put these spots would be in the houses of the abductees who say that they're being taken nightly or weekly or so forth.
		Another good place to put them would be in the aircraft that actually are sent to scramble to chase these things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		That you could actually determine by doing this if you had enough of these in enough places, you could probably tie them together and use them just like a radar network.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		You should be able to see a path as these things cross.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's an awfully good idea.
		A lot of people are doing abduction research now.
		I've found that UFO researchers who have started at the beginning many years ago come to a point where they settle their mind that the UFOs are real.
		Then they begin to move into abduction research.
		And most of them seem to say that's where they think we should be concentrating now on the abductees.
		Do you agree with that?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I think so, absolutely, because it kind of reminds me of our SETI program, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, where we were spending millions of dollars to look clear out to the edge of the universe in hopes of finding signs of intelligent life by decoding radio signals.
		Meanwhile, UFOs are landing by the hundreds of thousands in people's backyards.
		And I think we were kind of looking in the wrong place there.
		And I think maybe we're doing that when we take soil samples and things like that.
		Now, I do this.
		I'm not trying to run this down.
		But I do think that maybe we're concentrating too much on the effects of these things rather than the cause.
		And I do think that it's extremely important that we study the abductions and what's going on.
		And I also, I'll go a little bit further and say I think it's very important that we listen to what these people are being told by these visitors.
		Now, back in the 50s, you'll remember there were the contactees like George Adansky and Harold Binger and the rest of them.
		And they said that they were taken aboard these craft and shown lots of things and told that we need to love each other and we need to stop with the nuclear business and that we need to not pollute our planet.
		These utopian ideas.
		And of course they were laughed at by most of the population and everybody thought they were nuts.
		And now we're finding out that we're in a situation here where if we keep up the way we've been going for the last few decades, if we keep it up much longer, we're not going to be able to survive on this planet.
		And so maybe what these people were being told, maybe they weren't nuts.
		Maybe they were contacted and maybe they were being told these things legitimately because now, since we didn't listen to contactees, that was about the time back in the 60s when the abduction started in full force.
		And now we're finding, you know, I've asked all the abductees that I've asked, which is the last 30 or so that I've talked to, I've asked them three questions.
		Do you consider yourself an environmentalist?
		In other words, are you concerned about what we're doing to our planet?
		Do you consider yourself a human rights advocate?
		Does it bother you what we're doing to minorities and so forth?
		Do you consider yourself an anti-nuclear advocate?
		And without exception, every single one of them has said yes immediately to all three of those questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Recent converts, Mark, or had always been that way?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be That they're selected because of their ideas, or it could be that their ideas are a result of programming.
		You know, David Jacobs talks about the anatomy of an abduction scenario where people are taken aboard and they're subjected to examinations.
		And one of the things that's done is there's this staring procedure where the so-called alien gets two inches away from their face and stares deeply into their eyes.
		And while this is going on, a lot of them report that they feel like information is being sort of sucked out of their brain, and other information is being put in there, injected into their brain.
		And consequently, after the abduction is over, a lot of these people are changed.
		They're changed spiritually.
		They become more spiritual.
		They appear to begin to have some sorts of psychic powers and so forth.
		You know, more ESP and things like that.
		And also, it appears that they're actually changing our attitudes about each other and about our planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let me lead you down a road.
		Would you suggest, would you agree that it is true that abductees frequently are abducted many times, or that even over a series of period of a lifetime, or even beyond, to the relatives of the abductees?
		Is that true?
unidentified		Yes.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Almost invariably we find when someone is an abductee, if you delve deeply enough into their family history, you'll find out that in most cases they were abducted from the time they were infants or children, and in most cases you'll find someone else in the family, the mother or the son or someone else who was also abducted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that being the case, Mark, it occurs to me that you could literally send a message to the aliens, perhaps through an abductee.
		And I wonder if that's occurred to you, and if it has, or it hasn't, I'd like to ask anyway.
		If you could send a message to the aliens, what would it be?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is being done now.
		There's a man named Darrell Sims who is the, I think he's the Houston MUFON director, and this is one of his main projects is to, he puts abductees under hypnosis and gives them post-hypnotic suggestions so that the next time they're abducted,
		they will awaken during the process and they will give a message to their captors, and they will also be able to remember things that normally they couldn't remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be darned.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And his message is, Daryl sent me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Daryl sent me?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, now my message would probably be different than that.
		I would probably say something like, what in the universe are you doing?
		Why are you doing this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or provide coordinates and times for a contact?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		But, of course, why they're doing this is, you know, that's their reason, not ours.
		And if they wanted us to know, I'm sure they would have told us a long time ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it may also well be that a post-hypnotic suggestion is as nothing compared to whatever technology they're utilizing.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could be.
		You know, as I said before, if my hypothesis is correct, they could be coming from literally millions of different places.
		And each one of them may have a different agenda.
		In fact, each individual aboard each craft may have their own personal agenda.
		So it's hard to ascribe human logic to them.
		It's hard to say that they all have a collective agenda, even though there does seem to be some sort of grand plan.
		There are a lot of people who they believe that they have some sort of mission to perform and that they're doing what they're supposed to do and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, I live in a little town called Terrump, Nevada, which is about 65 miles west of Las Vegas, and just a hop, skip, and a mountain from the infamous Area 51.
		And I can tell you, a lot of things are seen in the valley where I live, and I mean a lot of things from there on up north.
		And the attitude of the people where I live is, we see them, we don't talk about them.
		Well, I saw one.
		I saw a large, triangular, silent craft that passed over me at about 150 feet.
		It was very low, Mark, and very silent, going too slow for normal aerodynamic flight and utterly silent.
		I could hear crickets at a quarter mile, and I couldn't hear this one.
unidentified		This occurred several miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I've seen other seven.
unidentified		You know, that nice point in their professional.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's really quite a simple craft, and I'm curious about it.
unidentified		I think I'm going to open it here.
		Photos of craft of all different shapes.
		Generally, the shape is something to do with spheres, either with the spherical or different shapes or some variation in oak lake or a 408 or something like that.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		And I think the reason for that is because that's an efficient shape to use with a field, because fields are usually that shape.
		I have heard many instances of these triangular craft.
		As a matter of fact, Michael Lindeman and Ralph Steiner were there in Antelope Valley and saw a craft very similar to what you described.
		A huge, huge triangular thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This was huge.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Turned slowly on several different axes, as if it could rotate in any direction and then kind of floated away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way I described it, as floating.
		Not flying, floating.
		Now, it did no unusual movements, and it just, I watched it, oh, I don't know, for a good three or four minutes, just float right across the valley.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's been seen in that area by many, many people.
		As far as why it's shaped like that, I have no idea, really.
		And of course, I don't know who built it.
		There's a lot of government stuff in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Could be something of our own.
		if Lazar and others are telling the truth about the fact that we are reverse engineering these things, then it's very possible that we could have figured out how they work and how to get them to stay in the air, and we could have built our own.
		Or it could be that these are simply from some different place.
		As I said, once again, millions of different places they could be coming from.
		Or as Carl Sagan would say, billions of different places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you, by the way, do you have any...
		He, of course, has kind of turned, as it were.
		And what do you think about Mr. Sagan?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, Mr. Sagan is a brilliant man, or Dr. Sagan, I guess it is.
		Yes.
		He is a brilliant man.
		As a matter of fact, I credited him in the acknowledgments in my first book, which is called Dear Mr. President, 100 Earth-Saving Letters, because he was one of the people who convinced the world that we should not use nuclear weapons because of nuclear winter.
		And he has a brilliant mind, and so because of that, I know that he knows enough of the evidence about UFOs not to make a ridiculous conclusion that he made in his Parade magazine article that they are hallucinations.
		So I think he probably has an agenda why he did that.
		He has a reason for doing that.
		It could be that he is employed by the government.
unidentified		It could be that he thinks it's for the best.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		For some personal reason, I don't know.
		But I totally disagree.
		I agree with his article and everything, up to the point where he makes that conclusion.
		And, of course, that's utterly fallacious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you think that he might feel that it's getting close now and the social impact of a revelation or perhaps even support from somebody of his stature would be very harmful?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, if that were the case, then he probably should just not write an article.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying to be kind.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		But I do think that the government cover-up is rapidly breaking apart, and I think part of the reason for that is that I don't really think that our government intended to keep this a secret forever.
		And I think it isn't that they wanted us not to know anything about it.
		I think it's that they didn't want us to know too much too soon.
		And I think that they have changed now from a policy of complete cover-up to a policy of education.
		And I think you're seeing that now in all forms of media, you will see little hints now and again that these things are coming, that we all need to be prepared for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think we're contributing to that right now.
		Yes, of course.
		Mark, I would like to open my phone lines, if you wouldn't mind.
		We don't have a lot of time left, but I'd love to subject you to a couple of questions.
		Would you be willing?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, I'd be glad to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's do it then.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, 383-8255.
		Toll-free outside the state, 1-800-338-8255.
		Wildcard lines, area code, 702-385-7214.
		And first time callers, 702-385-7213.
		Wildcard Line 3, good evening.
		You're on the air with Mark Davenport.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Fritz.
unidentified		Mark, I haven't had a chance to read your book yet, but it seems to me you've done your homework.
		You mentioned David Ferning, Time Travel, and Conducte.
		Now, let's go to the best source of it.
		What do you think of the Billy Meyer conduct case?
		I'm sure you have your mind extended on this case.
		What is your opinion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Fritz, listen to the radio, please.
		He loves to ask everybody about the Billy Meyer case.
		Mark, what about it?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, a lot of people who have studied Billy Meyer's photographs have been baffled by how he could fake them.
		and I think possibly the reason for that is maybe they aren't faked.
		Some pretty high-powered photographic experts have failed to show how he could have faked these things, especially since the man only has one arm and he doesn't have...
		It will cost about $50,000 a piece.
		So if he's doing this with a Polaroid camera and one arm by himself with very little funds, then he's more of a genius than we know.
		So I think that we should take a very serious look at these.
		I think they could well be genuine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fine, Mark.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Let me make one interesting point about Meyer.
		He has said that the reason that his photographs are clear is that he is taking them at a time when he is instructed.
		You can take them now.
		And he has tried to take photographs when he's not instructed to, and they don't turn out.
		And I think maybe the reason for that is the field around these scraps is being manipulated so that he can take good photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Mark Davenport.
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Bell, I would like to ask Mr. Davenport if he believes that these sightings of UFOs or these entities have anything to do with biblical beings like angels or demons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Religious ties, Mark?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there is very definitely a spiritual component to these things.
		I think they've been around, as I said, probably as long as we have.
		And I think that what we're seeing now could be the basis of many of our religions, also our ancient myths and so forth.
		And I think that it's very possible that the angels of the Bible could be the exact same thing that we're seeing now.
		And we call them euphonauts or visitors or you know, the Bible is full of classic UFO sightings and abductions.
		We have Ezekiel, for instance.
		We have Enoch.
		Well, that Enoch, that book was that's a park of full.
		But we have Elijah and Elisha that were taken up into these into something.
		We have the Pillar of Cloud by day and the Pillar of Fire by night that led people through the desert.
		We have the Star of Bethlehem and all sorts of instances of things that could be interpreted as classic UFO sightings and classic abductions.
		We have Saul's vision on the road to Damascus.
		So I think it's very possible that these things are connected.
		And who knows?
		Maybe these UFOs are messengers from God.
		Who's to say they're not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who's to say they're not?
		That's right.
		Line one, good evening.
		You're on the air with Mark Davenport.
unidentified		Even Mark Rosewinner has been said that we're forecast that June 5th, 1995, they're supposed to make contact.
unidentified		What do you think of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I've heard all sorts of dates since the 60s.
		I've been hearing dates when they're supposed to do this or they're supposed to do that, and almost universally they don't.
		I think there may be a lot of reasons for this.
		For one thing, most of these dates come, they're channeled information, and usually all this information is subject to the interpretation of the channel so that the information is not coming, for instance, it's not coming to us in English.
		It's coming in thoughts, and we have to interpret whatever it is that we're receiving.
		And even assuming that the information is correct, the interpretation may be wrong.
		And of course, we also know that these people aboard these craft are notorious for lying to us about lots of things, including times and dates.
		You know, a lot of people have sold everything they had and gone up and sat on top of a mountain at a certain date and a certain time waiting for the saucers to come pick them up, and they were still sitting there the next morning wondering, what in the heck am I going to do now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty cruel joke.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I wouldn't pay much attention to those dates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening, Wildcard Line 3.
		You're on the air with Mark Davenport.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Evening, Mark.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine, sir.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm calling from Idaho.
		Okay.
		I wanted to ask Mark what he felt about some of the stuff that I've been hearing.
		I listened to, when I was in Salt Lake City, K-Talk Radio, and they had this woman out in New Mexico who's publishing these journals called the Phoenix Journals.
		And I wonder what you felt about those and the validity of some of the stuff that's coming out through those journals.
		Are you familiar with them?
		Yeah, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen on the air, sir.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, go ahead.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have read some of those things.
		Once again, I would kind of take it with a grain of salt because even though I think the channeled information needs to be looked at seriously and studied scientifically, I do think that the great bulk of it usually does not come to pass.
		There are all sorts of predictions about things that will happen.
		For instance, the photon belt, I think, was a big scare last year, or maybe the year before, where we were supposed to be coming into a period where the Earth would be, the sky would be light all the time and electricity wouldn't work anymore.
		You know, there are all kinds of things like this that are predicted and nothing ever happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you think the motive would be to confuse?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if you send a bunch of people up to the mountaintop waiting for the saucers to land and they don't land, the tendency of people is to just laugh it off, of course, and laugh at the person who went and laugh at the whole idea, and it makes the whole thing a little more laughable and more easily concealed.
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		Well, I prefer to think that people are not able to interpret the information that they're picking up on.
		You know, there are a lot of people who are clairvoyant or audient and so forth, and they're able to pick up on information, and sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they don't.
		And they're the first to tell you that it's not really an exact science.
		There's not always a good interpretation.
		And I think that there is information there, whether it's coming from the collective and conscious or whether it's coming from ETs or whether it's coming from something else, from spirits or whatever.
		There is information there, but interpreting it and turning it into words and actual predictions is very, very difficult.
		And I think that that's probably more of the problem rather than deliberate deceit.
		I can't see any reason for that because if they wanted to conceal themselves, they could probably just not say anything, and it would probably work just as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're so short on time here.
		We could do hours here.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Mark Adamsport.
unidentified		Where are you coming from?
		I'm coming from the front.
		I saw something about it.
		It's a Thanksgiving ago.
		It was really through my mind.
		I was traveling to the front.
		I was traveling to the front.
		That's the first Thanksgiving.
		This is on a Wednesday.
		I was going past Edwards Air Force Base about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
		I looked up ahead of me and I saw up in the sky what I thought was a large crow or raven, something like that, black, kind of moving around in the air.
		And I was driving a 90-arrow-so advanced, which has a high windshield.
		And so as I got closer to this thing, I realized there was something in front of it.
		It was like a black line in the sky.
		I thought it was a plane pulling a target.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we've got to hurry here.
unidentified		And so anyway, these things drifted across the road, and then they just stopped dead in the air.
		And one was a plane, a black plane that looked something like a stealth fighter.
		And this black line was in front of it.
		And this plane just stopped Dead in the air.
		There was no motion, no heat, waves, no noise, no nothing.
		And then the black line circled around behind the black plane and tilted on its axis.
		And another black plane appeared.
		I guess I was looking at it from a different angle.
		I just sat there totally still with no engine noise, no nothing.
		And I saw off the throttle.
		I had my window down a little bit, and I heard no engine noise at all.
		They were just set in the sky, totally motionless.
		And as I drove under them, I tried to catch them in my rearview mirror, and they just disappeared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you for the story.
		Mark, that sounds different then, but with some of the same components of what I saw.
		And this would clearly indicate the kind of technology that either we've developed and we're much further ahead than we thought, or they have given us.
		Is it your view that we have their technology?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I think that some elements of the U.S. government know one heck of a lot more about the technology than they're telling us because I think as early as 1947 when one of these things crashed near Corona and it was the people from Roswell Army Airfield recovered the debris and the object.
		I think since that time we've been studying these things very closely and trying to duplicate them and it's very possible that we could have had some success at that.
		There are a lot of stories that we have been given technology in exchange for other things.
		It's possible that that could have happened.
		It would, as we said at the first of the program, it would follow the general modus operandi of our government.
		That's just exactly how the military works.
		It keeps things secret as long as it can to keep them out of the hands of the enemy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mark, we are out of time.
		We're out of time.
		I have to stop.
		I have no choice.
		But what I am going to ask is that you hold on the line for a moment because I want to talk to you about doing another show.
		So would you be kind enough to do that?
mark davenport ▲ ● ▼		I would be glad to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a wonderful interview, and this was not enough.
		Stay right where you are, Mark Davenport.
		Thank you all.
		Thank you, everybody.
		I'm sorry that we don't have more time.
		We could, and I guarantee you we will do hours on this subject.
		This was Area 2000.
		I'm sorry, time's up.
		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
		Area code 702-456-1606.
		Ask for Angela Thompson.
		That's Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And be with us next Sunday evening at 8 for another edition of Area 2000.
unidentified		Plaza Downtown.
unidentified		This is KDWN Las Vegas.

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