Art Bell

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Nov. 14, 1993 - Art Bell

01:46:07

Area 2000 with Art Bell - George Knapp, Linda Howe, Walter Andrus MUFON

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Main voices

28:21

linda moulton howe

05:49

tom adams

06:08

walter andrus

51:31

Appearances

george knapp

04:13

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening, everybody, and welcome into Area 2000.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		And this is going to be an extremely interesting program this morning.
		George Knapp is back.
		We've got him.
		We've got glimpses into other realities.
		We're into another reality with Linda Howe all the way back in Philadelphia.
		And then I think you're really going to enjoy this morning.
		Walter H. Andrus Jr., who is the International Director of the Mutual UFO Network, Inc., will be with us.
		So it's going to be quite an evening, and I suppose we ought to go ahead and get started.
		So, here, roving who knows where, our roving journalist, George Knapp, is back.
		And here he is.
		George, good evening.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Arch.
		Good evening, listeners.
		The UFO flaps over Clear Lake, California, founded the thing that we have mentioned before in the program that crash and sightings began this spring.
		And since then, dozens of witnesses have reported seeing disc-shaped craft, balls of light, and other unexplained aerial phenomena.
		We've been told this week that videotape of one such craft has been captured, although we have yet to see the tape ourselves.
		What's more, witnesses are now seeing telltale helicopter traffic, as if the government or someone else is monitoring the UFO situation there.
		We've heard this sort of thing again and again around the country in places of considerable UFO activity or even animal mutilations.
		People start seeing UFOs or they report mutilation cases and then, bam, these unmarked helicopters start showing up in great numbers.
		Whoever it is behind it, they seem to have a heck of a lot of helicopters.
		Another perennial UFO hotspot, Missouri, is experiencing yet another UFO wave.
		Witnesses near Springfield are reporting the appearance of luminous, silent flying objects, triangular in shape with red lights on the top.
		Witnesses near Spiritup, Missouri have seen groups of luminous UFOs flying in a trapezoid formation.
		And residents of Dade County, Missouri have been seeing these glowing yellow cylinders flying around, something that's been described as akin to a fat flying sausage.
		Sightings also continue over Gulf Reese, Florida.
		Some fairly impressive photos of disc-shaped craft have been snapped during the past several weeks.
		These photos have been analyzed and appear to be genuine as far as we can tell that the craft are quite similar to the ones that were seen and photographed by the infamous Ed Walters.
		A lot of people have doubts about Ed Walters and his photos.
		In fact, your guest tonight, Walt Andris, could certainly address some of those questions.
		But these pictures would tend to corroborate, I think, what Walters has been saying.
		A couple of media notes.
		A feature film about UFOs is in production and is expected to be released in theaters early next year.
		A documentary film will be titled Beyond This Earth.
		At least two British TV networks are interested in producing UFO programs.
		Traditionally, Art, as you probably know, the government regulates the pressing team stayed away from the topic altogether.
		But in the past week, I've been contacted by two British networks about UFO projects being produced in conjunction with English researcher and author Timothy Goods.
		Also in the works here in the U.S., at least two syndicated UFO talk shows.
		One is being produced in New Orleans by renowned abductee Calvin Parker.
		The other is being put together in Los Angeles, hosted by Don Ecker.
		He's the research director for UFO Magazine.
		We don't yet know what markets these programs will be airing in, but both production teams hope for nationwide distribution.
		UFO Conference News, a big one scheduled for this month in Las Vegas, beginning November 28th at the Showboat Hotel.
		It lasts for a full week and features many of the best-known names in UFO research.
		The conference will also delve into topics not always given much credence in UFO circles, such as channeling.
		Angela Thompson of the Bigelow Foundation has further details if anyone's interested.
		And also this month, UFO conference East will be staged in New York City.
		The date's November 20th and 21st.
		Nearly two dozen speakers are scheduled, as well as a UFO march on the United Nations in protest of the alleged international UFO cover-up.
		A lot of people have mixed feelings about such protest actions.
		They worry that it affords the mainstream media yet another chance to poke fun at UFO nuts in funny hats carrying funny signs and that it might denigrate the quality research being conducted.
		That's something you might want to discuss with your guest tonight, Walt Andritz.
		I don't think there are many people in the world who know more about UFOs than he does, and I look forward to hearing the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about it, George?
		These protests that are going on, there was one at the White House, and now you're saying there's going to be one at the U.N. Is it a good idea?
		Is it productive or anti-almost anti.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I think that there is interest, as we've discussed before, Art, there is interest among serious people in Washington, D.C., for example, in getting to the bottom of the UFO cover-up.
		There is belief among members of Congress that it's real, that it's going on, that someone is lying to the public.
		I think this creates some political problems for people like that, that they are supporting sort of an ongoing behind-the-scenes investigation of the matter.
		And for it to come out now, when they don't really have the smoking gun, when they don't really have the evidence they need to nail the people who are behind the cover-up, I think it makes it less likely that they would stick with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's almost hard to even know what to demand when you don't have the evidence.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		George, wonderful.
		Thank you very much, and we'll look forward to your next report.
		All right, take care.
		That's George Knapp, and with quite a bit of information for us this evening, as a matter of fact.
		All right, you're listening to Area 2000 coming to you from Las Vegas.
		It is a weekly event.
		We're here beginning at 8 o'clock every Sunday evening.
		Now we're going to go all the way to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and somebody that you should know and shouldn't really need any introduction at all, nevertheless, with a glimpse into yet another reality from Philadelphia, here is Linda Howe.
		Linda, good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Arn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the program.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, George and I are sort of on a similar track in these newslets.
		He started off with a discussion about the unidentified helicopters in California.
		And the unidentified and often silent helicopter has been one of the very confusing aspects of strange phenomena in the past few decades.
		There have been reports of helicopters silent or noisy and unidentified over pastures where animals have been found mutilated or over the homes of people affected by the UFO abduction syndrome.
		A strong link between these mysterious helicopters and the animal mutilations began in the 1970s throughout the Midwest and eventually spread to most of the rest of the United States, including Alabama, this winter and past spring that I've reported here on earlier Area 2000 broadcasts.
		The helicopters can be of several varieties and colors and almost always without identifying marks.
		A friend and colleague of mine, Tom Adams in Paris, Texas, has researched the helicopter connections to animal mutilations and human abduction since the 1970s.
		Tonight, I asked him to update us on his research, and we began our discussion with an example of an eyewitness report that linked a mysterious helicopter to beings that did not look like typical humans.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was one case that occurred in 1976 in Montana in the area of Norris and Madison County, Montana, which again was, they had, well, between June and October had about 22 confirmed mutilations of livestock.
		And again, accompanied by numerous reports of helicopters, some unmarked, some jet black, many reported as silent.
		And during this time, there was a hunter from Bozeman, Montana, who was about 3 p.m. one day hunting in an area near North Montana.
		And he watched a black helicopter, without any discernible markings, fly overhead and land behind a hill.
		So he climbed the hill and saw about seven individuals apparently disembarking from the helicopter.
		He began to walk toward them and offered greetings, and he realized suddenly that these men appeared to be Oriental.
		He wasn't sure if they were Chinese, Japanese, or whatever.
		They certainly were not white male Caucasian.
		They appeared vaguely Oriental, and they were jabbering in some language that was indecipherable to him.
		They had slanted eyes and olive skin.
		They didn't have uniforms, just everyday street clothes.
		And suddenly, as they saw him approaching, they ran back to the helicopter and took off before he could reach them and find out who they were.
		And we've also been told that there were similar reports of Oriental appearing helicopter occupants in England.
		You don't have too many accounts of people actually seeing the occupants of these helicopters.
		And of course, as you know, and many people already know, in the history of the UFO phenomena, there have been reports in occupants.
		There have been reported expenses of Oriental.
unidentified		Great.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now, what about the traffic operations between helicopters in or around the vicinity where people have reported also seeing what would be considered a UFO?
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the primary cases is that of the Cash Landrum, Medicash, Dickie Landrum, and Colby Landrum, which occurred in September of 1980, north of Houston, Texas, where the three were encountered a large diamond-shaped object healing fire and smoke in a rural area.
		And of course, as many know, they went on to suffer physically from the after effects of this encounter, which apparently included some kind of radiation effect.
		But while they're reviewing this large diamond-shaped object, there were, the report has been 23 helicopters which appeared around the object, some of which were single-bladed, single-rotor helicopters, others were the big Chinook or flying banana-type helicopters.
		And of course, again, as is usually the case, all attempts to determine with any finality where the choppers are coming from have met with futility.
		There are some suggestions, of course.
		There aren't too many places that would have this many helicopters.
		And this kind of leads us to the possibility that they would be military.
		Because you have to ask who would have the manpower and the facilities and the logistical capabilities of operating a fleet of helicopters outside of the military and be able to do it with impunity.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So in that case, it might actually have been some kind of a military operation, either guiding strange diamond glowing objects in the sky or monitoring its activities.
		In the context of whether or not all helicopters could be military or terrestrial, there is Sheriff Lujeroda's famous quote from the documentary I did when he said that he and other investigators had become convinced that some of the helicopter activity they were trying to chase was actually,
		and this was his quote, creatures not from this planet here involved with the animal mutilations and using the helicopter appearance as a camouflage for their own work so that we would not pay attention to them.
		What is your comment about what Lu Giorato has had to say?
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		Helicopters over the years have been reported as silent.
		It has led a lot of people to think that perhaps we're not looking at helicopters at all.
		Maybe they are some kind of non-terrestrial craft in disguise, which of course makes sense.
		They would be able to move about without being noticed as readily as they would be if they were in their regular non-terrestrial configuration.
		But to play the devil's advocate, there is a technology which might explain the existence of silent helicopters, active noise control, where you produce a sound to cancel out an already existing sound.
		And what you have essentially is you wind up with silence.
		So the technology is there, but again, the question has to be asked, as Muda Girotto asked many years ago, how many of these operations can be carried out with such impunity without anyone being caught or captured?
		That very fact itself lends some credibility to the idea that there's something a little bit more exotic going on here than just a military operation.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it's been going on for over 30 years in association with what people have described as looking like a helicopter.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And I remember when I was working on a strange harvest, the insurance guy in Denver who called me and said that he and his mother-in-law saw what they thought was a low-flying helicopter come over to their house west of Denver and suddenly turn into what looked like a square through which they could see the sky and continue to rise vertically upward and changed or metamorphosize into something that looked like a solid round disk.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was an interesting story.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		We don't have a lot of others like that, but of course if that one story is true, that again limits credibility to the exotic element of this.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That it could actually be a camouflage operation in some of these cases of an alien life form using a helicopter shape to confuse us and to keep us from understanding what's going on.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		Possibly.
		I also think it's conceivable that there may be more than one thing going on here, that there may indeed be an alien camouflage operation occurring, but also there still may be some kind of military or at least governmental operation wherein somebody are executing.
		And there are some indications that this may be the case, some indications that there are helicopters bodies in your base on certain military reservations.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And ours?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		In that whole issue of if there were military helicopters involved with boats flying over abductees' houses, being in pastures either before or after animal mutilation, would be who are they?
		How are they monitoring and tracking all of this?
		And is there any truth to what somebody in the military told me sometime back, unofficially and off the record, that there was in fact a system of teams that were tracking various frequencies of things that were identified as non-terrestrial with the idea of getting to locations both to monitor and to break up some incident like an abduction or a mutilation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What an incredible mystery this is, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		If anybody out there listening has any information about any of these aspects of abductions, mutilations, or government monitoring of frequencies that might be non-terrestrial in association with these unidentified and strange helicopters, I would certainly like to hear about it, and I know Tom Adams would too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do people contact you, Linda, if they have information?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I can be reached at post office box 538 Huntington Valley, spelled H-U-N-T-I-N-G, D is in DOG, O-N, Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania, and the zip code is 19006.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And if anyone has anything to report, please get in touch with me, and I will also share it with Tom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		All right.
		Well, that's, boy, that's something.
		I'm very curious myself about these helicopters, Linda, and I think there's good reason to be curious and try and pin it down because it is at least something we can follow toward trying to figure out what's going on here.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It is, Tom has said this himself many times.
		If we could literally get to the crux of the strange helicopter phenomenon and understood exactly what it was, which may be very clearly two things, our own military trying to monitor something that is another intelligence and the other intelligence camouflaging itself so that it can move around on the planet more easily, we might begin to get closer to understanding what is involved with our planet.
		And it has these helicopters or something that looks like helicopters have been reported now since at least 1973.
		They were dozens of reports back then.
		And they were reported with great regularity this winter in Spring, in Alabama.
unidentified		And most recently I understand that there's another helicopter in short, in front of us.
unidentified		So it was just because of my car and the car was in front of us.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I hope people report the stories because we know what's going on.
		So I hope I will hear from those of you out there who may have information about this.
		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda, we'll look forward to your report next week.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Linda.
		Linda Howe from Philadelphia, actually near Philadelphia.
		And if you have any reports for her of this nature, please do get in touch with her.
		That's Linda Howe, post office box 538.
		Huntingdon with a D, H-U-N-T-I-N-G-D-O-N Valley, Pennsylvania.
		Zip code 19006.
		And the information is power.
		So she could use some.
		And if you have reports, we'd very much appreciate it.
		Walter H. Andrus Jr.
		As one of the founding members of MUFON in 1969, Walter H. Andrus Jr. has been the international director of the Mutual UFO Network, Inc., since 1970, succeeding Dr. Alan Utke, I believe it is.
		He served on the staff of Skylook and the MUFON UFO Journal beginning in 1968.
		Walt is presently the associate editor.
		He's been editor or co-editor of the annual MUFON UFO Symposium proceedings since 1972.
		Born in Des Moines, Iowa, in 1920, Mr. Anders graduated from the Central Technical Institute in Kansas City, Missouri in 1940.
		He's a graduate of the U.S. Naval Electronics Technician Program during World War II, taught in their schools.
		Walt was formerly employed by Airlock as a station manager.
		1949 to 1975, he was employed by Motorola, Inc.
		in successive capacities as assistant plant manager, manager of quality control, and operations manager in their Quincy, Illinois Facility.
		In 1975, he transferred to the Seguin, Texas plant as a production manager.
		After a tenure of nearly 34 years with Motorola, Walt retired at the end of 1982 to devote full time to the management of the mutual UFO network.
		Even though being retired, he continues to provide consulting services to the Motorola-Saguin plants.
		Mr. Andrus has been interested in the UFO phenomenon since August 15, 1948, when he, his wife, and son had a daylight sighting of four UFOs flying in formation over downtown Phoenix, Arizona.
		And amateur radio operators since 1939.
		Walt's present call letters are W5VRN, Victor Radio Nancy.
		In addition to presenting slide illustration lectures in the USA, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, England, Italy, and Mexico, he's appeared on television in the USA, the United Kingdom, and more recently with Oprah Winfrey.
		Walk is vice chairman of the International Committee for UFO Research and is one of the founding members of the new Joint American-Soviet Aerial Anomaly Federation, or JASAAF, organized in 1991 to promote UFO research and cooperation between UFO organizations in the USA, similar organizations in the Russian Commonwealth of Independent States.
		So, all the way from Texas, here is Walter Andrus.
		Good evening, Walter.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you with us.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's my pleasure.
		Walt, it's hard to know where to start with you.
		There's so much I can ask.
		I guess I'm going to begin with the subject of the first two reports, or at least they both touched on it.
		What have you heard?
		What reports does Lufon have on this whole black helicopter thing?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, black helicopters have been prominent in many cases to identify each and every case out of the question.
		However, we have to study these for the very reason that, well, one of the identifications, if it's daytime, your Coast Guard helicopters are painted a dark blue.
		The Air Force may have a blue helicopter.
		The Army is using camouflaged or the olive grabby green helicopters.
		Coast Guard is blue.
		So this one we're identifying that, yes, these black helicopters have been seen.
		We've actually photographed them in daytime.
		They are not with license numbers and checks with registration.
		There's nothing related with the FAA.
		One of the agencies of the U.S. government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does this lead you to believe that this whole UFO phenomenon, or at least part of it, or maybe just part of it, is indeed connected with the government, that in some way or another, it is either all a government project or what do you believe about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly the helicopters would seem to suggest terrestrial origin and cooperation or knowledge or something.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't blame or even consider that the United States government is responsible for the UFOs that have been sighted for hundreds and thousands of years.
		We have nothing on the planet Earth that will fly and perform like a UFO.
		So if our government had them, we would be ahead of everyone on the planet Earth in space travel.
		But we don't have them, sorry to say.
		And the helicopters have been sane.
		We don't know their purposes entirely, but they're apparently trying to learn what is going on in different events.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I'm asking, Walt, is since they are helicopters, since helicopters probably are from Earth, unless they're some kind of change artists and can change shapes or change our impression of what we're seeing or something, it certainly suggests some sort of at least cooperation then between what you have firmly said is not of terrestrial origin and our government that definitely has some black helicopters.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't know if there's cooperation.
		Again, we work with facts.
		If we are speculating on a subject, well, I'll preface the comment accordingly.
		But we have to resolve the phenomena, and I think our government would like to know more than they know at present.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		Walt, we've got to take a brief break for a station identification.
		I understand you are an amateur radio operator.
		I am as well, Walt.
		You should know.
		My call is W6OBB.
		So welcome to the program as a fellow ham.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Walt, stand by.
		We're going to do a quick station identification.
		We'll be right back with more.
		You're listening to Area 2000 from Las Vegas.
unidentified		The End From Jackie Gonz Pleasa downtown.
		This is KDWN Las Vegas.
		KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, good evening.
		Reminding you that all of this happens not without substantial support.
		All of this area, and I speak now of the Area 2000 program, happens because the good people at the Bigelow Foundation are there.
		If you'd like to contact the Bigelow Foundation, your contact is Angela Thompson.
		She's a research coordinator there, and you can reach her at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		You might just want to thank them for their support of this program.
		The original concept was theirs, and it has worked like crazy.
		Very popular program.
		Again, Area Code 702-456-1606, the Big Little Foundation.
		Mr. Andrus, welcome back.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've got clear sailing now to the top of the hour, and I guess there are a whole bunch of things I would like to ask you.
		But first, there will be a lot of people in the audience, Walt, who have no idea what MUFON is, where it came from, why it is still in business, and what you guys do.
		So tell us about MUFON.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we'd be happy to, Art.
		MUFON is the acronym for the Mutual UFO Network.
		We're organized on May 31st, 1969, and we'll be celebrating our 25th anniversary in 1994.
		Talking about anniversaries, my wife and I celebrate our 50th anniversary right there in your building in the beautiful glass-domed dining room at the Pleasant Hotel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, congratulations.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That was a year ago, and we just passed our 51st.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That's getting off the subject.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We did want to tie it in with your location there at KWDM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		KDWN.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		K-D-W-N.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		Going back to MUPON, we started May 31st, 1969.
		The reason was that there was a contract issued to the University of Colorado during 1968, extending 1969, by the United States Air Force under the charge to determine if UFOs deserved further scientific study.
		The charge first was going to be, do UFOs exist?
		And no one would take the contract because as the managers at the University of Colorado point out, yes, we have UFOs still in active towards that, but we're still close to contracts with the UFOs for scientific studies.
		And Dr. Edward U. Condon hit it up, and he attended, well, he did nothing toward investigating.
		I don't think he read any of the reports that his committee and team went out and interviewed people.
		He did go to a COOP UFO convention in New York City because he felt anybody believing UFOs was a COOP.
		So his report came out, and they called it scientific study.
		However, it's a little bit different than a conventional scientific study worked by in a lab for physics or chemistry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Attached to set your experiment, conduct your experiment, record the results, and then determine what did I learn.
		This makes the reports that the University of Colorado published quite unique in that the conclusions are in the first chapter.
		And he probably wrote that before the study was even done and criticized people for teachers for teaching studies UFOs.
		They shouldn't first book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		This is the contribution of the child of the Manhattan Project.
		He's head of the Bureau of Standards at the University of Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how do you account for an attitude like that?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, a preconceived opinion.
		And they probably should have never hired him.
		But his people worked real hard at the project, produced a big, thick book, and even in their book, 30% of the cases they treated, they classified them UFOs.
		So it's quite evident that Dr. Tondon didn't take the time to read the work of his own committee.
		It cost the Air Force about $650,000 to conduct the study, and they came out and made recommendations that they closed Project Blue Book by the United States Air Force.
		That was probably a good recommendation because people weren't reporting sightings, public, were not reporting sightings to the Air Force because of the ridicule that was involved in being told, let's say on 2 o'clock in the afternoon you were watching the planet Venus in the sky, and so people just refused to report them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you've been the collection point, Walt, for sightings for years and years and years and years.
		Are we getting more sightings, fewer sightings?
		What do your statistics tell you?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Our statistics show, Art, that we're not getting a lot more sightings, but we're getting higher quality sightings because people are more knowledgeable on the subject.
		Years ago, back in the 50s, a light in the sky was considered a UFO, something that unusual had moved.
		Well, we find that of the raw reports that we get from the public, that 80 to 90 percent can be explained as something mundane after a very thorough investigation that is sending an investigator out to interview the witnesses,
		go to the scene, get the facts, determine if there's any physical evidence, photographs, and so on, and then also try to determine what else could they have seen, just misunderstood what they were observing.
		It was, of course, a UFO, which simply stands for unidentified flying object.
		It was unknown to the first reporting, and they are very, very anxious to find out what did I see.
		It was confusing.
		80 to 9% of the reports can be explained as something mundane.
		One of the items that receives a lot of attention these days, especially if you have a clear evening across the United States, the space debris coming in puts on a tremendously beautiful show as rocket shells and debris burns up in the atmosphere.
		But it's always going in a straight line.
		People say, well, it should be coming down.
		Well, no, it comes in quite flat and burns up slowly in the atmosphere.
		And even when the last space shuttle passed over Texas, we got UFO reports at 3.15 in the morning.
		It put on a pretty fair show, but kind of a blue haze around the nose and an orange glow from the rear.
		But that was what we call an IFO, an identified flying object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		So we're interested in that 10 to 20% residue after a thorough investigation that represents what we call the real UFOs.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		To explain we call those IFOs or identified flying objects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You must collect pictures, photographs, videotapes, whatever sort of evidence people have.
		I'm sure they try to get it to you.
		Do you have big full files of videos and pictures, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we have most of our files, our documentaries and so on on UFOs.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		But in each of the individual cases where video is taken, we have those files.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you consider to be the best evidence, the best picture?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is the news people will ask this one question.
		What is the one case that proves beyond a question of doubt that we have UFOs?
		Well, the same answer applies to photographs.
		There isn't any one case that really proves the whole picture.
		It's a series of cases, multiple cases, where the evidence repeats itself.
		You have patterns developed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still, though, Walt, if I were to ask you, look, go to your files and bring me back the picture, the best picture, the greatest detail, or the one that you like best, what would you bring?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have more pictures right now on the Gulf Breeze, the Ed Walder sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		In quantity.
		They are much superior.
		You're still getting pictures.
		We'll have an article in the December issue of our MUFON UFO Journal on the sightings down at Pensacola Beach, Florida.
		They are daytime sightings.
		They're not very clear, but there's certainly something on video and also on still cameras.
		But the pictures Ed Walder took are very, very good, and I have more of those on a file than any other one.
		You see a lot of publicity on what they call the Billy Meyer pictures made in Switzerland.
		They are beautiful, but they're simply five different models suspended and posed for the benefit of Billy Meyer to photograph them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		They're good-looking pictures, but I wouldn't pull those to show you because they are not UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the Ed Walters situation in Florida?
		How do you personally look at that?
		Are you a believer that something really is happening there?
		Or do you tend to believe those who you remember the model that was found and all the rest of that, baloney?
		What do you think about Ed Walters?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, when I first heard about the pictures, our local committee in Pensacola, Florida, in Gulf Breeze, interviewed Ed.
		That was on January 7th, 1988.
		I took off the following week, went down because I wanted to meet Ed personally.
		Pictures can be fake.
		We know how it can be done.
		We know how we could actually simulate the photographs he has.
		But I want to know what is the credibility of the photographer.
		What kind of person is he?
		And the credibility of the photographer is even more important than the photograph itself.
		Is he credible?
		And I found Ed to be a very successful businessman, a builder of the finest homes in the Pensacola Gulf Breeze area.
		He's won awards from the State Builders Association.
		He's a businessman, very active in the Chamber of Commerce, the school system.
		He has everything going for him as an incredible person.
		And yes, we have conferences in him, and we support his state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what have you done?
		Do you have staff people or anybody that works for your organization that goes, actually goes to Florida and tries to get pictures or meets with Ed?
		What do you do now?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		So we cover the entire world.
		We have nearly 5,000 members, Art, and we try to cover every county in the United States.
		And so that was something like this break, our people around were seen.
		And our investigators knew who Ed was before he went forward publicly that he had made these pictures.
		Because we were already interviewing other people in the neighborhood in Gulf Bridge, Florida that were having the same similar sightings to what Ed Walters had, even before he had agreed to a public interview with our investigators.
		I've been down there four times.
		I went down the first time on January 15th in 1988.
		I've been back three times since then.
		But I was not fortunate enough to have seen something while I was there.
		Maybe I should have stayed up all night each night.
		I went down to take a look at the pictures.
		On one trip on March 4th, I went down when he made his first serial picture with a camera that we shipped down from here, sealed it.
		It was a little NIMSO 3D camera.
		When you take one picture, you get four images from the four different lenses on 35mm color.
		And he got an object that has multiple lights on it, entirely different than he had had previously with his old Polaroid.
		His old Polaroid that he used to show progress on homes he was building for people that were going to move to Florida or who wanted to see how their home was progressing.
		You can take a show how you can use that to take a double exposure, triple, quadruple, anything you'd like.
		Just don't pull the film out.
		It's got manual eject.
		But as soon as we showed him that the camera would do that, he went out and bought a brand new 600 LMS Polaroid, which has a motor eject for the film.
		The film is packaged in the cart.
		You probably have one of these cameras yourself.
		And there's no way you can host that, take a double exposure.
		He bought the camera on March 6th, 1988.
		And on March 7th, he got his first picture in the backyard of a UFO with that camera.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walt, let me ask you a question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You say with the mechanical eject, there's no way you can double expose, but suppose one simply removed the batteries that operate the mechanism for the mechanical eject or the automatic eject, then you could.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		uh uh You can't, let's see, you can make one picture.
		Of course, you have to set it up.
		I've been through his home looking for what route he might have used, if he did, to have a model with a black background to do a double exposure.
		Let's say you take your model against a black background, then walk outside and shoot again without removing that film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		And you have your background.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		So, but on this, you take your batteries out, but your camera probably wouldn't perform without.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's no way to independently disable the mechanical ejection of the Polaroid engineers looked at this, and I don't know how much time they spent on it.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		It took them two and a half months to come back and explain how you could disable the camera, take the film out that it's in a pack.
		You've got ten shots to a pack in tinfoil, and they'd have to go in there and take that out and then replace it and put it back on the camera.
		But interrupt the camera's stroke.
		And they say it took them a long time.
		These are polaroid engineers that were responsible for servicing the cameras.
		Whereas Ed, he was so sharp, he figured that out in one day.
		Believe that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's approach it from this angle then.
		Of all the cases that have come to MUFON, I don't know how many people ever ask you this, but I'm going to.
		What percentage of them does MUFON itself judge to be fake?
unidentified		Fakes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fakes.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Oh, fakes are somewhat rare, and we get them regularly, several a year.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		But fakes, it takes much work to figure out a fake as a real one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Because you have to be sure what you're doing, what you're saying, and how you arrive at that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I'm asking you more for a judgment, not so much what you've proven, but with regard to the material you get, what percentage do you think when you all get it at MOFON, you say, uh-uh, oh, no, this is questionable or, you know, it seems to us like it's fake?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have to separate those art.
		When a person makes a photograph of something unusual, and we get those once a week, they see something on film they can't explain.
		Now, to them, this could be a UFO.
		But we have to sit down and figure out what is it on that film that is quite unique and quite different.
		Some of them are just film defects.
		That's one of the items, but that's not considered a fake.
		This person was very sincere.
		They just developed a film, and here's something they didn't see when they made the picture.
		And we have one right now made in the Far East, where you've got a big temple there, daytime picture, a group of people going through some religious ceremonies, and really right across the picture are some little red dots, zigzag right across the picture.
		Now, we've got to figure out what in the camera would cause something like that, because it's not a UFO.
		So that person is simply asking, what do I have here?
unidentified		Sure.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		And we don't call that a hoax.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That's not a fake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, what I meant by that is things that would almost have to be intentional frauds.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		No, I wouldn't call it intentional fraud at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, not that.
		Not that.
		Yeah, not that it.
		I'm talking about things that you would privately, when you look at it, say, ah, baloney.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		A lot of these pictures, very easy.
		For instance, on the polarites, we've had it simply dust between the layers of the emulsion on the film.
		And it makes quite a unique little picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ed, there was a protest seeking information at the White House not long ago.
		And now there's about to be a protest regarding UFOs, we understand, at the United Nations.
		How do you view these protests?
		Is it positive or negative?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have not supported the one that occurred at the White House on July 5th this year, nor are we supporting the one that's going to take place next weekend in New York City, the Dodd-Hummersko Park area.
		They did receive a lot of publicity on the one this past year.
		The one before, this was the second one.
		The first one, no publicity whatsoever.
		But this isn't the way you can get action from Congress.
		We have other plans.
		We're doing things behind the scenes that could have positive results and get the proper attention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any idea what the Clinton administration attitude toward all this is?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		No, we haven't been able.
		Bill Clinton has been so busy with problems since he came into office that when people write to him about UFOs and he'll have an age simply say, well, we thank you for your interest in the subject and best wishes, and they have an answer.
		We don't know what Bill Clinton really thinks.
		Past presidents, we do know, and we'll be able to fill Tin Bill down one of these days, provided to get some of these other fathers behind him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ed, what president, which U.S. president do you think has had the most interest in trying to get into this?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, George Bush was head of the CIA, the director, and the CIA has been in the UFO since the 1947, 1948 era up to The present day.
		Therefore, he's probably more knowledgeable than any president.
		Even the president has to have a need to know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't know if he's controlled.
		I don't know, Walt.
		He was probably out of the loop.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, he could be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was just asked questions.
		Yeah, that was just a joke.
		But yes, he headed the CIA, and obviously he would have known.
		Do you think most presidents do know, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		No.
		For instance, Jimmy Carter made a promise, a campaign promise, that if he was elected, he would release all the UFO information because he'd had a personal sign back when he was a rotary governor down in Georgia before he became the governor of Georgia.
		Gerald Ford was responsible for getting an investigation started in Congress after the 1966 swamp gas sightings in Michigan, where his constituents pressured him.
		Ronald Reagan didn't talk about his personal UFO sightings until he only had two months left on his second term.
		And of course, he was not going to be, couldn't run for reelection, therefore it didn't hurt him.
		He even thought about Nancy and her astrologers and friends.
		Reagan on four occasions mentioned three times to Phoboshev that if the Earth was attacked from space, we would unite as Russians and Americans to defend ourselves.
		Now, he made that statement once later on to an AFL labor meeting in Chicago, another time to a group of high school students in Maryland.
		So he could have known more than NHCI.
		Jimmy Carter got real excited about UFOs after the motion pictures were made on the weekend, I should say, New Year's 1978, and they were shown between the football games on New Year's Day in this country.
		He went to NASA and suggested, you have to be able to reproduce.
		They said, oh, yes, we will, if you'll provide the sign answer.
		But they took Jimmy Carter inside Robert Fries, who headed up to NASA at that time, NASA, talked to him like a Dutch uncle, no doubt.
		I heard Jimmy Carter on the Larry King radio program about three months ago when Larry asked him about his personal sighting down in Georgia.
		And Jimmy Carter promptly recited to him.
		And one of our members in Virginia called in on the program and said, well, how about your campaign promise to release all the UFO material?
		And Jimmy says, well, we did.
		But the Air Force probably said, yes, sir, Mr. President.
		But before they released it, two lieutenants sat down with big black felt pens and marked out all the names of the witnesses, the dates and places, and just destroyed the whole file basically before they released it.
		They didn't tell Jimmy Carter they'd done this.
		They said we released it.
		And so they had.
		Now, so there, you can say, what does the person know?
		He has to have a need to know.
		And if he doesn't have a need to know, he probably hasn't been told.
		We know that Truman could have gotten involved way back in 1947 when he was president, possibly with what they call the MJ-12 documents.
		We're still trying to determine if they're legit.
		This was actually a briefing that Terry Truman was having made available to General Glen Eisenhower when he became president.
		And it was a report of what they call the MJ-12 Committee, 12 distinguished scientists of that day, about six scientists and six military and CIA people that were, each one was MJ-1 through 12.
		And the report covers the Rouseville crash and other events that occurred prior to January 1952.
		This report was sensibly prepared.
		But we're still trying to determine, is it authentic?
		It's a difficult job.
		A lot of money has been spent trying to check it out by going through archives of Eisenhower, Truman, and others to check out other possibilities and to confirm the format and so on.
		One of the problems is it's a hoax.
		That's probably easier to prove than trying to prove a truism.
		And that's where we're stumped right at the moment.
		So we can say if that one is true, then Truman was involved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many reports do you get?
		Do the reports come to you there in Texas, Walt?
		Or do they come through regional centers and then get filtered to Texas?
		Or how does the reporting system work?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reporting system works like this.
		Our investigators at the scene will go out and conduct the investigation, prepare a report, and turn that over to their, well, so the state section director, if that isn't the person that did the reporting.
		Then it goes to our state director to screen and determine if it's been filled out properly, that all the details are there.
		And they in turn forward it to a regional director.
		We have four regional directors, three in the United States and one in Canada.
		We call him the national director.
		And from there, he'll go through there and take excerpts from it to be used for a current case log in our monthly magazine, the Lufon UFO Journal.
		The report will go from the regional director to our deputy director of investigations, who is Ronald Johnson in Austin, Texas.
		He is the fireworking to receive it.
		There we put it in the computer in Austin, Texas.
		Another chap does that.
		Another regional file comes to Saguin, and we keep the hard file here.
		We have seven four-door file cabinets filled full of UFO siting reports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of material, Walt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has the government ever come to you?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that something I would think they would be very curious how much you know.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, they may be looking at this home conversation right now, but we really don't care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you would think with a collection center of data the way you have, if they're curious how close you guys are to having something.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, remember, based on the Project Blue Book, Project Sign, Project Sign was set up about 1947 after the Ken Farnow sighting and the crash at Roswell.
		Their reports came out and submitted to Hoyt Vandenberg, who was then chief of staff, that UFOs represented alien spacecraft visiting the planet Earth.
		Hoyt Vandenberg said topic talk and had all the reports destroyed, and he closed down Project Sign and set up Project Grudge.
		Project Grudge, which the name may imply, was set up to explain away all UFO study reports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, that didn't work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Walt.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Then they went to Project Bluebook.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're at the end of an hour, Walt, so relax for five minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll come back, and if you're up for it, we'll take some phone calls.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You're listening to Walt Andres, Jr.
		He is director of the International Director of the Mutual UFO Network.
		More in a moment.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonz Pleasant downtown.
		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
		AP Network News.
		I'm Sean Anderson.
		With a midweek showdown looming in the House of Representatives over the North American Free Trade Agreement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		H. Andrus Jr., back now to Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walt, are you still there?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		Walt, before the program, just before we get to calls here, prior to the program, I told you, and my audience is well aware of, a sighting that I had a couple of months ago.
		How does that stack up with a lot of the other sightings you're hearing about, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		It follows very definitely a pattern that we're seeing here.
		The objects that you started with triangular extensions, years ago that was not common.
		But with the sightings around the lower Hudson Valley region in New York State, the triangular or boomerang-shaped objects became very predominant.
		And that's what you were seeing there.
		The two white lights on the corner, sometimes they have three lights.
		The red strobe light was very unusual, I thought.
		That isn't reported near as often.
		But the white lights are.
		The sightings in Belgium in 1989 were the big triangular objects with three white lights on the three corners of the triangle.
		But the fact that it moved very slow or floated, as you pointed out, without sound puts it in the category of a UFO definitely, because we don't have any craft that can support itself in the air with half the benefits of power of that nature, as we know it, without making a lot of noise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, on top of that, no matter what sort of support it had aerodynamically, it was going too slowly.
		Aside from there being no sound, it was simply going too slowly to have supported itself in flight.
		I do guess we're doing some work with sound cancellation, currently, Wes.
unidentified		Tom mentioned that, but I'm not aware of it.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We have a lot of people as our members that are in the aerospace industry, since one of our deputy directors is John Schuster, our vice president.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		He's a director of Don Douglas over at the Space Center, and they're not aware of the thing that Tom Anderson mentioned, so I cannot confirm that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right, let's take a few calls.
		Wildcard Line 3, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Anders.
unidentified		Hi, my name is Mike in San Luis Obispo, California.
		How are you doing, Walt?
		Hi, Mike.
		Good evening.
		It's a pleasure to talk to you and a real opportunity to ask you a question that involves a little physics.
		I guess you're an engineer, so you'd be aware of the possibility that the aliens are operating outside Newtonian physical laws.
		For example, wouldn't faster-than-light travel make the aliens very old?
		And could you speculate on that?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, some people have made that statement.
		I used to argue with Dr. Hennig about that.
		The assumption is made sometimes that every time a UFO is seen over Las Vegas, Nevada, or Pyro, Nevada, that it came from some distant planet, appeared over Las Vegas and went back.
		They don't do that.
		They've been here for several hundred years, maybe several thousand years, and they're staying around the planet Earth.
		They aren't going back and forth, so we don't have to re-worry there about the speed of light and how fast they travel.
		Yes, they do things that are beyond our physical world.
		That is, they'll pass, somebody pass right through our current world and take human beings out with them through our colored world through a window.
		How that's done, we do not know, but people have seen it happen.
		And that certainly isn't our physical world, but they're taking someone like you and me and making it possible for us to do the same thing.
		That we cannot explain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Walt, let's keep moving, shall we?
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Walt Andrus Jr.
		Where are you calling from, please?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good evening, Norton.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		This is Bruce in Yume, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Bruce.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		AL7LS.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another ham.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes three.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I just like to pass on an experience I had when I lived in western Wyoming and then get the comments off the air from our guest On what his interpretation would be.
		But we in Mountain View, Wyoming, just south of Evanston.
		I lived there back in the mid-70s.
		And we had a series of cattle mutilations.
		And it was really funny because I'd just kid around with the people at work who was employed out there.
		And one night I was just about knocked out of bed by, you know, what I swore up and down were helicopters.
		Dead, you know, 3, 2 in the morning, something like that.
		And then the next day, my landlord, where I was staying, said, you know, hey, Rich, you want to come out and see one of these mutilated cows that we had?
unidentified		And sure enough, there it was.
tom adams ▲ ● ▼		But the thing was, was the helicopters and the point that, you know, there's never anything in the news about it, but just word of mouth and, you know, on ship work and like that.
		It was just all anybody could ever talk about.
		And we were taking shifts out, you know, watching fields and like that in the evenings.
		So I just passed that on, and that was probably in 76, 77 in southwestern Wyoming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any comments, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, this follows definitely the work that Linda Bowles and Howe you had on your program earlier.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Colorado had a lot of sightings in the same period, more so than Wyoming, probably because they're going to raise more cattle than Colorado rambling.
		So rambling is going to be scaled over a wide area so it's easy to monitor what's going on out there.
		But the heaviest cattle mutilations in the areas you're talking about occurred along the northern New Mexico and southern Colorado area.
		A big share of them, but Colorado was well covered at the same time it had some in Wyoming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if we look at the various permutations of the sorts of reports you get, I wonder what you consider to be the more interesting to follow now.
		You know, and I referred to the sightings, the abductions, the cattle mutilations, the crop circles.
		I wonder what aspect of the whole UFO phenomenon you think is the most intriguing at the moment?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have to look at what can we learn the most.
		We're trying to resolve four questions.
		But why do UFOs exist?
		And the evidence is overwhelming when you have tens of thousands of reports in your computer and in files.
		Two, how are they powered?
		And this is what our aerospace engineers and aerospace companies would like to know.
		Because the group that can design a craft that will fly like a UFO will be head and shoulders above anyone on the planet Earth in space travel.
		Third, where are they from?
		Well, we don't know.
		We can only say that of the nine planets in our solar system, we think there's only one that can sustain life as we know it.
		We think there's some intelligence here on the planet Earth.
		Sometimes we even question that.
		And fourth, what can we learn by studying these, shall we say, the pilots of these craft?
		Because they definitely seem to be far more advanced than our technology on the planet Earth.
		So that fourth one definitely has the greatest merit, and that is in some of the abduction teas that give the best clues what is taking place.
		I have all your tapes.
		I haven't played all of them from prior programs on how far Bud Hopkins has carried this or Dave Jacobs in the genetic engineering that's going on with humans and breeding half-breed children and so on.
		I feel that the purpose there is to sustain their species because it looks like they're very frail and weak.
		They cannot reproduce as we do.
		No genitals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have heard a lot of reports, Walt, that in encounters they are, in fact, almost always reportedly physically weak.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		And that's why they speculate that by mixing with humans, they're going to be able to build up the physical attributes of the aliens in such a way that otherwise they would just pass out of existence.
		It looks like they may be cloned, and when you clone anything, each time you lose a little bit.
		The creatures are very fragile bodies, large heads.
		Even their fingers are very, very thin, no thumb or a stub.
		Even their feet or the toes are starting to go together because they don't do a lot of walking and certainly don't have not entered the New York Marathon, which was conducted today.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So of the four things that MUFON is trying to learn, only one has really been settled, and you have settled it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do exist.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Very emphatically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Line one, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andrus Jr.
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		This is Fritz from Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		However, you have been a tremendous force in the UFO research, and you run a very respectable organization.
		But you also made a very big mistake, and you continue to make the mistake.
		In the early 80s, you and the late Lawrenson, the founder of APRO, and just about all the major UFO researchers, you drew the baby out with a bedwater.
		And I'm talking about the Billy Meyer complex case.
		Now, Walter, let me explain this for you in the audience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He mentioned Billy Meyer a little while ago.
unidentified		No, I know.
		When a planet, like us, goes through a cosmic awakening call, a three-way condition grasped by the alien words applied.
		That's from above, from below, and from within.
		Now, dranced souls are recycled.
		It may be sound, maybe metaphysical, but that's the way it is.
		They are drained, branched, and conditions for a planet.
		There is surface contact.
		Now, Billy Meyer was such a dranced soul.
		And he has his band of jobs very well for his abilities.
		I know well that this is a dawn in your eyes.
		Time will tell that the Billy Meyer case is real and the photos are real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Comments, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Our investigation today shows that they are simply five different models suspended from the limbs of a tree or bushes and photographs.
		Whenever we send investigators over to check Billy Meyer out, he won't talk to our investigators.
		He insists that he can't speak English, but we know better.
		We've heard him narrate five motion pictures, video pictures, using broken English.
		So, Well, as soon as the investigation started, all the pictures stopped.
unidentified		Well, the, I know you're up in age, I know, and I hope you're going to be around with us for a long, long time, but you will see the Billy Meyer case stands solid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that's a prediction.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Who are you, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, his name is Fritz, and he's from Los Angeles.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I knew he was L.A., but I didn't catch the name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Fritz is the name, and you're going to want to remember it.
		He's very active in these circles.
		All right, so you think, again, that the Billy Meyer case was just some models hanging from a tree branch?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, when you do photo analysis on these, it shows the model is up real close to the camera.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		When you do computer enhancement and break the whole picture down into pixels, if the object is real close to the camera, you get a sharp edge of the pixels around the edge of the object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		If it's at a greater distance where you have diffusion of the dust particles in the air, the edge of the object will be rough in a little pixel breakout.
		And it shows either being real close to the camera.
		His camera was jammed.
		You cannot adjust the focus.
		Therefore, he would try to arrange the object to be at the focal length to get a good picture.
		If he got too close, it was out of focus, being too close to the camera, because he couldn't adjust the focus.
unidentified		Plus, you said that the camera is away right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you said the photographs stopped the moment the investigation began.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that kind of adds to the credibility of your organization and yourself that you just don't buy everything out of hand.
		Good evening.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Walt Andris.
		Hello there.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		You're on the air.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		I'm calling from Payette, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Payette, Idaho, all right?
		Payette.
		Right.
unidentified		And I'm Tay 6QT.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's another name.
unidentified		So I've known Walt for many years, and I represent him here in Idaho for MUPON.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		State Director.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		State Director in Idaho.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Walt.
		Good evening, Bob.
		Hey.
unidentified		I have mostly congratulations for your fine work there, Walt.
		And Arn, I have a question about the 50KW that you've got there in Las Vegas.
		I have a heck of a time reading it here.
		I wonder if you're on any channel besides 720, because it's real noisy here.
		I wonder if you have a directional array there that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're beginning to get on the edges of it, so that accounts for your difficulty in Idaho.
unidentified		Yeah, well, real good there.
		And one other thing there.
		Do you have a post office box or something like that?
		I'd like to send you a QSL card and also find out I heard you mention that you get on 75 meters, and I missed the frequency.
		I wonder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		I'll be on 75 meters tonight at about midnight or maybe 1 o'clock, somewhere in there.
		Very late.
		And on 3857.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		3857.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We have several amateur radio nets within the Mutual UFO network.
		The 40-meter net operates off the east coast every Saturday morning at 0800 Eastern Time.
		The thing that Bob is trying to start even back when he was on the West Coast, and Arch, you might be able to help too.
		We need a 75-meter net and a 40-meter net to cover the mountain states in California because our 40-meter net doesn't get out this far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd be glad to talk to you about the possibility of a net on the weekends on 75 meters, if that's something you'd like to follow up.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So there you have the frequency, and if you want to get a hold of me, you can send me materials at care of KDWN Radio.
		And the address is number one Main Street.
		Very simple address, number one Main Street.
		Yep.
		Las Vegas zip code 89101.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		I got it.
unidentified		You are sal, old boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
unidentified		All right, thanks.
		Good talking to you.
		And I get it all here, but the signal's pretty noisy, and I'm using a 160-meter delta loop to do that.
		My 80-meter zep won't even do it here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I'll tell you, we're limited to KWN right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Eventually, this program, no doubt, is going to syndicate, and maybe we'll get a station there in Idaho.
unidentified		I listened to you from Bakersfield, and they got a terrific signal in here on 1560.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, on the syndicated program.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
unidentified		K73s.
unidentified		God bless, fellas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Thanksgiving holidays.
		Greetings to you.
		I listened to, try to see if we could pick up KDWN here, and I got to hear WGN Chicago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, there you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what you'd be hearing, I'm sure, in Texas.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		It sounds like your football game was ending.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Walt.
		Line two, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andres.
unidentified		Good evening, Art and Walt.
unidentified		The reason that I'm calling is I live out here by an Ellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nellis Air Force Base, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, and I mean, I think that certainly the government knows about this, that UFOs do exist, but my only question is, why don't they disclose it to the public?
unidentified		Is it, I was asked a few people this question, and they think it would just change the whole order of the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's an awfully good question, actually.
		Thank you, ma'am.
		Wald, it is a good question.
		I can rephrase it and just say, why the cover-up?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		The cover-up started in 1947 with the crash of an object near about 70 miles northwest of Roswell, New Mexico.
		That was about a week and a half after the Kenneth Arnold sightings on June 24, 1947, near Mount Lee in the state of Washington.
		The cover-up started with the crash.
		A report was released to all the newspapers, radio stations, and those that had evening papers published it that evening.
		And the next morning it was rescinded by General Roger Ramey when he said all it was that they recovered was a robbery and weather balloon, the radar reflector.
		So that was a cover-up.
		And once you start the cover-up, that was 1947.
		This was 1993.
		And no one in our government is willing to come forward and admit that we're lying.
		We've gone through the Gary Powers U-2 flights over Russia, and they said that we were not doing that until Gary was shot down.
		That everybody knew it.
		We had Watergate, Rongate.
		Our government does lie to us or the words you like to use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's more apparent than ever now, I'm sorry to say.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		So once that started, they would kill the credibility of our government if they admit that they're lying about something as important as it affects every nation on the planet Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, once the lie began, they really had to maintain it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's like most lies that you tell, once you've told it, you've got to remember what you said.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's the difficulty telling lies.
		You've got to remember who you told what to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		All right.
		Back to the phones again.
		And on the first time, Carla Ryan, good evening.
		You're on the air with Ralph Andres.
		Hi, Ralph.
unidentified		Hi, Archer.
		My name is Dennis, and I'm from Santa Cruz, California.
		I listened to your program some of them very clearly out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		I have a general question for you.
		The question for both you and Walter is this.
		With supposedly crashed alien vehicles, one would think that their technology would be so sophisticated as to avoid crashes as we try to do here.
		Is it possible that we're actually taking physical action against the aliens?
		Or even more possible, is it possible that there's a conflict amongst aliens that happens to just be in our neighborhood?
		Could you comment on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walt, I'll let you try it.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
		We've been told that there are many different alien groups from different places, and it's conceivable that they don't get along, shall we say, the good guys and the bad guys, and that they may have destroyed one of their own craft.
		Their technology is certainly far more advanced than we have on the planet Earth, but even in quality control circles, they're not perfect.
		The one at Roswell, it's conceivably two of them collided during an electrical storm.
		The debris was found at Roswell, about 300 yards long, about 100 yards wide, and the crab was all in small pieces, whatever it was, and material there that is not known to the planet Earth people.
		Another craft was supposedly found 130 miles straight west on the St. Augustine Plains at the same time and recovered.
		And it was only damaged slightly.
		It had a big nick out of one edge, and there were four creatures there, two dead, one injured, and one still alive when the Army Air Force people arrived at the scene.
		We're still working on that one to confirm it.
		So if two of them did collide, and one landed 130 miles west, and the debris of the other one was just torn in shreds at Roswell.
		Now, that could happen.
		We've had aircraft crash and run into each other on the flight Earth frequently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walt of all the researchers that are out there, and there are many, many that I have interviewed, is there any researcher that you would consider to be, well, I guess there are several questions here.
		One is, do most of them belong to MUFON?
		And is there any researcher that you would consider to be doing the best work?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		The News UFO Network is the world's largest UFO investigative organization.
		And yet, not everybody belongs to it.
		There's a smaller group in Chicago called the J.L. Hayek Center for UFO Studies.
		Some of those people, it's a very small limited group.
		Some of them are members of MUFON and some are not.
		But to name, there are a lot of people doing tremendously good work in the field.
		Dr. Bruce McAbee was chairman of the Fund for UFO Research in Mount Linear, I should say, Linear, Maryland, Mount Linear.
		Richard Hall is now the chairman of that group.
		Both of them have done real fine work.
		You can go on and on.
		For instance, John Schufler, who is our deputy director, is one of the founding members of MUFON with McDonald Douglas.
		Our director of research for MUFON is the R ⁇ D director from McDonald Douglas in Burbank, California at their headquarters.
		And this goes on and on.
		We have 202 people on our board of consultants, all have doctorates in their individual fields.
		We have 398 research specials with master's degrees.
		So it shows that we have some very competent people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, it really does.
		That's extremely impressive.
		Walt, I've got to take a quick break here.
		At the bottom of the hour, an ID the radio station, stay right there.
		Walt Andrus, the International Director of MOOCON, is with us this evening.
		If you'd like to ask a question, the telephone numbers are coming up in just a moment.
		You're listening to Area 2000.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonzalez downtown.
unidentified		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, everybody.
		This is the largest organization and the head of it that we have with us this evening, and it is kind of an unusual opportunity for you to ask anything you'd like to know.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, 383-8255-8255.
		If you're calling from outside the state, several ways to get in.
		The toll-free line at 1-800-338-8255.
		The wildcard direct lines at Area Code 702-385-7214.
		And finally, if you have never called the program at all, you're welcome to use the first-time caller line at Area Code 702-385-7213.
		Walt, good evening.
		Are you still there?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We probably should put it at this stage of the game.
		We have your address where we can write to get all of Art Bell.
		But your listeners would like to know where they can write to contact the Mutual UFO Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or even call, Walt.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, let's give an address first if they would like to.
		We need investigators all over the world that can go out and interview people that have a sighting.
		For instance, Bob from Payette, Idaho called in, and he is our state director for Idaho.
		We have a state director for every state.
		We have representatives in foreign countries, so we cover the plant earth quite well, but there's still a lot of open places where we need help.
		The address here is either right, the mutual UFO network or the acronym MUFON, M-U-F-O-N.
		The address is 103.
		I'll repeat, 103, Old Town.
		One word, Old Town, and then Road.
		The city of Saginaw is spelled S-D-G-U-I-N, Saguen, Texas.
		And our zip code is 78155.
		We get mail as far away as Russia with this UFO, Saguen, Texas, with a conference zip code.
		We get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess they know you're going by now.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		What about a telephone environment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If somebody were to have a sighting, there's something really urgent was appearing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a way to pass?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, siding.
		Call here your site 210-379-9216.
		That's the number we're on right now, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Area code 210-379-9216.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We have two lines in here, but it'll switch over to either one of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Excellent.
		On the first-time caller line, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andres.
		Hello there.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Let me turn off my radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Yes, we have a delay here.
		Where are you, Mr.?
		Walt Andres.
		I'm in Sacramento.
		Sacramento.
		And I'm a first-time caller.
		I listen to your program during the weekdays.
		And I have a friend, which Mr. Andrews is probably familiar with, William Frederick Hamilton III.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know, Bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm his friend Maxie.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		And what I'd like to ask you about is the Brian Scott case back in the 70s.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		If you're familiar with Bill's work on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I went through the whole thing with Bill, and I have personal knowledge.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Has Bill told you about Jimmy Colorado and the documentation on the case?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this case, part of the requirement on it was two trips to Tiwanaca to Bolivia in 1976 and then 1977.
		And there was a party of 16 people that were witnessed on the second trip, and it was professionally filmed.
		And they have 5,000 feet of professional color film.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Who has this, Marcy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The man that has the proprietary rights named Jim Frazier, they have 400 hours of tape material and 35 rows of film, color film, that were taken on the second trip.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		And what is this show?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never seen the professional film myself.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		I've seen some of the slides.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		A lot of the slides have a peculiar vignetting on them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had a phenomena where the battery packs were zapped, and he went to his backups, and the backup battery packs were zapped on the professional camera.
		And so he used a 35 millimeter, which was mechanical.
		But the whole case was extremely paranormal, psychokinetic, just wild things that went on that were, you know, defying descriptions.
		And I don't know whether I've had any lengthy conversation with Bill on this, but it was an extremely well-documented case.
		I went one time and I had a set of prepared questions, which I double-blinded and didn't let Bill see any of.
		Kept the folder closed until we had the appointment and we were sitting in the living room, placed myself well away from anybody else, had the contactee in a projection state, and then began to ask him the first question, and I said in regard to, and he cut me off and said in regard to the Sarsen Stones and the transport thereof, a verbatim recital of the topical content of the first question having to do with Stonehenge, which is one of the elements in this case.
		But I'd just like to point out if you're interested in the individual's name, I can mail you some information on the individual that has the documentation in Colorado.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Please do, because I'm not aware of this at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, please send it along.
		And Walt, what about connections of this kind?
		How does it mix in, or does it mix in, in your estimation, with the UFOs?
		All these reports of psychokinetic activity, of people being contacted mentally, of time travel, of all these other areas that are very mysterious themselves.
		Do you see connections to the UFO phenomena?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We're not blind to periphery material that's going on, but most of our emphasis is on, shall we call, the nuts and bolts scientific aspects of UFOs because they very definitely are a materialistic craft.
		They can land and leave physical evidence.
		You can go up and tap on them.
		They're metallic in nature, some of them.
		So we've somewhat confined ourselves to the craft and the beings as comparable to humans, to some type of aircraft that we would like to duplicate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're coming.
		I spend very little time on things that he's mentioning.
		All right.
		That was what I was curious about.
		Line three, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Anders.
unidentified		Well, a couple of questions, guys.
unidentified		How you doing, by the way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're both fine.
unidentified		Good.
unidentified		Number one, it sounded like your last answer, you might not be able to help me with this question, but George Knapp, when he was on, he spoke about a thing called remote viewing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Okay, I wonder maybe if the guest can maybe comment on that, if he knows anything about that.
unidentified		And there was a special on the pyramid, and I guess they speculated they used the heavy they moved the heavy stones with air generated by sound pressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Air generated by sound pressure?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we can move stones with that today.
unidentified		No, there was a special on the pyramids on the networks this week.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		You mean that one of the Sphinx?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		And they speculated that the way they manipulated the stones was with, I guess it was sound pressure, the air generated by it.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the air factor came in when they were looking deterioration on the face of the wrong.
		And they thought that in a lower area, it looked like, and kind of surprised the investigators, that you had water erosion that takes the six months or agent that was originally considered.
		But going back to remote viewing, we're going to have a fellow named Ed Deems will speak at a Groufon International Symposium in Austin, Texas, July 8th, 9th, and 10th next year.
		And he is the president of SciTech, which is a firm that obtains contracts to do studies through remote viewing a group of people that can take a subject or even it's been used trying to read files in Russia, and they've been trying to do the same thing in our confidential files.
		But it's a whole field in itself, and our interest there is that we would like to utilize their help, you say, and develop a high percentage of accuracy and credibility to use some of the information they provided.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you are interested then in this field, at least from that point of view, very definitely.
		All right.
		On the first time caller line, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andrus.
unidentified		Yes.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to find out.
unidentified		I have heard on an earlier or another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to Coast to Coast A.M. Try the Wildcard line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dial one, Area 702-385-7214.
unidentified		It occurred in November of 92 in Long Island, New York.
unidentified		I'd like to know what he knows about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		November of 92 in Long Island.
		Know anything about that, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, a fellow named John Ford claims that there was a price there, but we have his videotape and information he has available, but it certainly doesn't prove anything.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		And I'm afraid that he's got very, very excited about nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It actually does my right wood, Walt, to hear you, when it's necessary, not hesitate to suggest that something is not productive or that you didn't think much of it.
		To me, that adds to your credibility and means that you're objectively looking at all this.
		And that must be hard to remain objective all the time.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		I call myself an objective skeptic.
		I don't see everything people tell me.
		But if I can check it out from several independent sources that come up with the same information, then we'll accept it.
		That's one of the problems we're having with the Bob Lazar material there in Las Vegas.
		We hope that, and here's where George Knapp has been doing some beautiful work in following this.
		And therefore while it appears he was going to get some other people to come forward that work up there and to confirm what Bob said, that so far it hasn't been possible.
		So Bob Lazar is still in the gray basket, and we're still looking at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Good.
		Line three.
		Hold on, please.
		I'm coming to you out of turn.
		I think it's line one.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andres.
unidentified		Good evening.
		I'd like to ask Walt Andres in particular and about MUFON in general if in their research they put a stock in the work of Nikola Tesla and Wilhelm Reich and what kind of a relationship, if any, they have with the International Tesla Society.
		And I'll take my intro off here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tesla and the society in any connection to MUFON, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
		It is a field all in itself, and they have an organization, society, that's worked on Tesla's, studied Tesla's work.
		And it's certainly admirable for things he did in his time because he was far more advanced than others in the field.
		The Willem Wright Rainmakers and his horizont energy, we take a dim view on that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm the first-time caller line with Walt Andres in Texas.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, you're on there?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I'm calling from Palm Springs, and I have a question for your guest.
unidentified		Abductees have seen markings on the UFOs, and I think it's all the abductees in Europe have seen the same type of markings.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		They look to me, from pictures I've seen of them, as Egyptian-type hieroglyphics.
		Has any effort been made to try to translate that?
		It might be cool if we could ever come up with an idea of what they say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a really good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that is what they look like, Egyptian hieroglyphics.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
unidentified		That's my impression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Walt, how about it?
		Has there ever been an effort?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Jesse Marcel Jr., who saw the debris that was picked up at Roswell when his dad brought home and dumped on the kitchen floor for his mother himself to see.
		It had symbols, and he's drawn them to the best of his knowledge, but of course, he was only 11 years old at the time, and now we're in 1993, and the event occurred in 1947.
		The letters have been shown, have appeared when abductees have been aboard craft, but those have been kept reasonably quiet.
		Bud Hopkins has been doing a study on this to use as kind of a check measure against different abductees that come up with the same printing.
		It's not legible.
		We haven't known to figure out what they say.
		But when different abductees can draw the same symbols that they've seen aboard a craft, and this has never been published, this is another test factor to determine their credibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it hasn't gone past that stage right now because...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is similar reports?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Probably about ten that I'm aware of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ten.
		Well, that's pretty impressive.
		That's pretty impressive.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		But it's got five questions that he asks about abductees when it comes to where they claim they have hybrid children.
		And he has five test questions there that have never been published.
		I'm aware what they are.
		But this is another way of measuring when a lady says this is how it happened, blah, blah, blah, and spells up the details that others have given at a prior time.
		We have to have things like this because once it's published in a book and becomes public domain, anyone can fake it or hoax it and claim this is what they saw aboard the craft.
		And so the fact it's not published means that it can be used as a test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you are clearly the international organization, Walt, and you get reports from all over the world, it's reasonable to ask you where most of them come from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, do we get more reports per capita in the U.S. or in the Soviet, or what used to be the Soviet Union, or what part of the world seems to lead in sightings, or are they generally spread about?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		They are spread about.
		They've had sightings in every nation on the planet Earth, in every country.
		The real problem in those is the language barrier.
		Someone has to translate it into a common language.
		The reports, therefore, for a while we didn't get anything out of China, but now it's opened up.
		And Russia has been very, very open here lately.
		They've had enough internal problems, but prior to go back 10, 20, 30 years ago, it was difficult to get things out of Russia.
		So we couldn't say that they have more reports there or less reports because we didn't have access to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, have you caught up, though?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any KGB file or file in Russia that has been turned over to you since the decline of communism?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Probably the best work has been done by your own George Knapp.
		He and his partner went to Russia in March of this year and brought back about 400 reports, which they are in the process of having translated now.
		So that was probably the most current.
		We're getting some, but some are quite old in the work of, well, as early as 1957, we got the first book out of Russia that Felix Ziegel, Dr. Ziegel, put together of reports, early reports in the 50s in Russia.
		And they are identical to what we were reporting in the United States.
		So by trying to cover up UFOs here, we didn't kid the Russians because they had the same kind of sightings over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		All right, let's keep moving.
		Lots of people.
		Line two.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andres.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Mr. Andrews.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you're hard to hear, so get good and close to your telephone.
unidentified		Okay, Mr. Andrews, I'd like to know, does your organization have any follow-up on the face that was pictured on the surface of Mars from the lunar orbiter?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the face on Mars, Walt?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, those pictures are made by the Viking probe in 1976, and they look very interesting.
		We thought maybe we'd have it pinned down once and for all with the new Mars Observer and making photographs this year.
		But as we realize now, apparently they've had technical difficulties and they are not transmitting pictures back.
		Right now, we'll have to wait, I'm afraid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a certain percentage of researchers and others interested, Walt, who think that the high-quality photographic capability is exactly why the Mars Observer sort of mysteriously malfunctioned, and they don't believe it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does MUFON conclude about that?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, the jury is still out as far as we're concerned.
		I've heard these conspiracies, and even a friend Richard Hoagland has made some statements that even people at NASA were responsible for the failure intentionally.
		But we have too many people in our organization that work at high levels, NASA and the aerospace industry, that do not concur.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're so level-headed, and you seem to debunk as much as you do confirm, or maybe even a little more debunking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are we to know, and this is a hard question, Walt, take it with good humor, that you are not, in essence, sort of a continuation of Project Blue Book and a disseminator of disinformation yourself?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		You have the right to pose the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		But some of us have worked too many hours and years and years and years trying to resolve the greatest scientific enigma of the space age to spend our time putting out disinformation.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		We're trying to sort out the weak from the chaff and do it from a scientific viewpoint, such a way that we have something to support it, and we have documentation to support what we're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, if that was what you were doing, this is precisely the answer you would give me, right, Walt?
		And so that may give you some idea of how it is people feel when they're constantly accused of that.
		There actually is no defense.
		Line three, good evening.
		You're on the air with Walt Andres.
unidentified		Yes, good evening.
		I'm calling from Vegas, Hart, and Mr. Andres.
		I just want to ask two questions that hang up and you can answer it.
		You know, let me just say this.
		We have a telescope above the Earth that's taking pictures of billions of stars, maybe millions of light years away or millions of stars, and we have not heard any reports of them.
		I wonder, number one, if that is the big telescope that had a malfunction with this glass or whatever, or the mirror.
		I'm wondering if you suspect that they're hiding some pictures of other planets, perhaps, or some information with UFOs.
		I wonder what your guess is on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you a little bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Hubble has astigmatism problem, and they're going to have a mission here shortly to fix the Hubble, in effect.
unidentified		You haven't heard anything because of the malfunction, I guess.
		My next question, just as you go by, is there was an incident in 1980, believe it or not, in England, I think it was a British base or an American base there, where they recorded sounds of UFOs and lights and everything.
		I don't know if you remember that case.
		It was recorded on that visual paper recording, and they say it was quite accurate.
		Let me know what you think about that, and away I will zoom away up above.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Off with you then, sir.
		I'm trying to recall.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		I can report on that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		This is what they call the Bentwaters case in 1980, December of 1980, that occurred outside of the combined base of U.S. and England.
		We have the tape that Wallace Halt, the commander, made at the time.
		We have his letter, his report to the Minister of Defense, and also that's how we got the letter because our Air Force said they destroyed their copy, but they did release the one that he wrote to MOD in England because it was a U.S.-English base, and so he reported both places.
		HALT is out of the service now, and that is there, we've talked to several people that were at the scene, and it looks like a very interesting case, but there's still some conflict.
		So to some people, it would be a solid case.
		To us, the jury is still out, because there are quite a few discrepancies in the reports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Walt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate that assessment of Bentwater's.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Something really happened there, but we want to find out what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening from Jackie Gonzalez Plaza Hotel.
		You're on the air with Walt Andrus.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you're not.
		Line one, you're on the air with Walt Andrus.
		Good evening.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art and Walt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of mysteries, I guess, that probably will never be solved, but the indications are pretty strong that there has been space travelers coming by Earth for a long time,
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		because when you consider the, I guess there's some type of an airport in Chile or in South America that's visible from space, the monolith on Easter Island and some of the big stones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're kind of pressed for time here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a specific question, sir?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Is it possible that we could be another dimension out there that we can't quite perceive?
		That there could be some crossover between ours and theirs in some way that could explain some of these things?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Actually, that's a good question.
		Thank you.
		Yes.
		A lot of people have talked about another dimension.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Different dimensions that these people may be in.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Some say that they're in a parallel dimension to ourselves, traveling alongside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Others that they're in reverse and we're passing them.
		We don't have the answers to that by any means.
		That's just one of the hypotheses, and there are many to try to explain our so-called space travelers, our entities or aliens that are visiting on the planet Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you don't dismiss it, and you follow, I guess, people who are interested in this Aspect of it, of other dimensions, or the possibility that it is a parallel universe of some sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seems, Walt, as likely, frankly, as a scenario that they come from another physical place, you know, in space and time.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		That certainly has merit because we don't claim to know the answers as you well know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you really don't.
		And I think, as I said earlier, that adds to your credibility.
		We've just got enough time for you to blast out your address one more time quickly.
		Why don't we do it?
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Write to us at the Mutual UFO Network or the acronym MUFON.
		The address is 103.
		Now I'll repeat it.
		103 Old Town, which is one word, Old Town Road.
		The city is Saguina spelled S-E-G-U-I-N, Saguen, Texas.
		Our zip code is 78155.
		And the phone number here is area code 210-379-9216.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Walt, it has been a distinct pleasure to have you on the program, and we're just flat out of time, so I'll just be able to say thank you.
walter andrus ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, and it's my pleasure to be on Area 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Walt Andrus, take care.
		And everybody else, take care.
		Sorry, we're out of time.
		See you next week.
unidentified		Bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
		Area code 702-456-1606.
		Ask for Angela Thompson.
		That's Area Code 702-456-1606.

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