Oct. 31, 1993 - Art Bell
01:48:39
Participants
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
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| Area 2000. | ||
| This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects: UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences. | ||
| To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606. | ||
| That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606. | ||
| And now, Area 2000. | ||
| On Halloween. | ||
| Good evening, everybody, and welcome to Area 2000. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| This week, George Knapp is traveling someplace or another and will not be with us. | ||
| We'll catch up with George Knapp last week. | ||
| Of course, we had two full hours of George last week. | ||
| And by the way, that was a very, very popular program. | ||
| An awful lot of people have called me about that particular program, and we'll have George back on again. | ||
| But this week, he's traveling. | ||
| However, with a glimpse into another reality, we do have with us from, I'm guessing, the San Francisco Bay Area this evening, Linda Howe. | ||
| And so let us begin with Linda. | ||
| And good evening, Linda. | ||
| Hi, yes, Art. | ||
| I am in San Francisco. | ||
| I have been one of the speakers at a conference here this weekend. | ||
| And with me is a colleague, Michael Lindemann, who is head of the 2020 group in California, a futurist who is interested in the various trends, sociologically, politically, and economically of the future. | ||
| And one of the subjects that he thinks plays an important role in what may be coming is, I implicate, implication of UFO phenomenon. | ||
| And I thought it would be interesting tonight to discuss with him a question that all of us are provoked by, and that is, why would the government of the United States have a policy of silence about the UFO phenomenon for at least 50 years if the alleged testimonies of people in military and government are true that we have been essentially covering up crash disks and alien bodies since the 1940s. | ||
| So I would like to introduce Michael Lindemann, who has a background in theology and in psychology, and who is now working on future trends to discuss this issue of a policy of silence. | ||
| And here is Michael Lindemann. | ||
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All right. | |
| Thank you, Lindem. | ||
| Hello, this is Michael Lindemann. | ||
| Michael, good evening. | ||
| I'm Art Bell, and this is a program called Area 2000. | ||
| You're with a group called the 2020. | ||
| Was it a foundation? | ||
| 2020 group is a private research organization, ART, and basically we're studying forces that shape the future. | ||
| And that includes a wide variety of forces. | ||
| But as a futurist, over the last four years, I've looked a great deal at the UFO controversy and have come to the conclusion that it is perhaps one of the largest and certainly one of the least recognized forces that will impinge upon our future, that is causing the human future to evolve in an unexpected direction. | ||
| Wow, that's quite a conclusion. | ||
| No, I'm pretty firm on that. | ||
| Okay, what do you base that on? | ||
| Well, I base that on a great many things, Art, but if we go back to the question that Linda posed, I think that what we see in the ongoing currency of government secrecy is a premonition that the reality of an alien presence on planet Earth would have profound and largely unpredictable social consequences. | ||
| I think it's the recognition of that likelihood, which is probably something they've thought about since at least the early 50s, if not earlier than that, that probably provokes the secrecy to this day. | ||
| And what they're seeing today is that they can no longer contain the secret in the way they used to. | ||
| The so-called UFO cover-up has actually evolved through several stages. | ||
| And today we see basically that the containment policy of secrecy is completely breached. | ||
| It's not working at all anymore. | ||
| So instead, we have a kind of a nuanced quasi-disclosure policy, which is actually very far from telling the truth, but it's a holding action. | ||
| You might say it's a damage control operation today. | ||
| Where do you see quasi-disclosure? | ||
| That was the term you used. | ||
| Where is there that? | ||
| In programs like mine? | ||
| I'm speaking now of the government. | ||
| Well, no, I don't, yeah, I don't think your program, I'm sure, is an effort to bring forward good, strong information as credibly as possible. | ||
| Yes, but we are part of the disclosure apparatus. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| So one of the things that comes up, and I think it's something that troubles many good, solid ufologists, Linda Howe, and I have discussed this. | ||
| I've discussed it with other colleagues as well, is are we giving comfort to the enemy, in effect? | ||
| Are we doing what they want us to do anyway? | ||
| And in a certain sense, we may be, because in a certain sense, we're creating a kind of a pillow for the general public to fall into. | ||
| This is very alarming stuff we talk about here. | ||
| It certainly is. | ||
| So then when you say jasse disclosure, what exactly do you mean? | ||
| Who is disclosing anything officially? | ||
| Well, it's very difficult to be certain of that, but I consider it a matter of rather considerable curiosity, for example, that after 31 years of dead silence, suddenly a great many Roswell people were willing to talk. | ||
| I'm not saying there's any conspiracy around that, but it's very interesting to me. | ||
| No, it is true, and a lot more about Roswell is suddenly coming forward. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And then there's the curious disclosure of MJ-12. | ||
| Now, MJ-12 came out of nowhere. | ||
| No one has yet claimed responsibility for it, and yet I would say the evidence is piling up that MJ-12 is actually a hoax, but it's a very important hoax. | ||
| I'm still open to the possibility that it's real, but frankly, it's about a 95% hoax there. | ||
| And the idea that it would come forward in a way that is extremely difficult to penetrate, that no one would lay claim to it, and that despite the likelihood it's a hoax, it is So carefully constructed that it has all the appearance of a genuine document, that has a signature on it of disinformation, very high level. | ||
| Someone is trying to perpetrate a conversation in our culture about this material. | ||
| Someone wants to nuance or spin the public understanding of this information. | ||
| And I think MJ-12 is a very good example of that. | ||
| Any other current examples that you'd cite? | ||
| In other words, the pathway being prepared, that sort of thing? | ||
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Well, it's unclear, again, where or whether there's a plan. | |
| But one thing's for sure, the amount of alien imagery in our culture is skyrocketing. | ||
| We see it in all different venues. | ||
| We see it in the straight press. | ||
| We see it on television, all kinds of specials, both fictional and documentary. | ||
| We see it to a mind-boggling degree in advertising. | ||
| There's a whole, in fact, a very strong undercurrent of abduction themes in all kinds, everything from television sitcoms to advertising for all kinds of different products, whether you're talking about hamburgers, telephones, airplanes, or anything else, we're seeing this undercurrent of thematic material about abduction. | ||
| This to me is absolutely extraordinary. | ||
| I search my soul asking the question, is this really a strong hook for selling hamburgers or Hondas? | ||
| And I say to myself, I don't know about that, but I do know this. | ||
| Today, and this is something that I show every single time I give a public talk, I throw up on the screen a cartoon. | ||
| It's a Ziggy cartoon. | ||
| You know, that little kind of doeboy, funny guy? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Okay, Ziggy is driving along the street. | ||
| It's after dark. | ||
| There's a billboard. | ||
| And on the billboard, there is a flying saucer, very clear, a line drawing, flying saucer. | ||
| Under it, a couple of lines come down that look like probably what you'd say, a beam of light. | ||
| And in the beam of light, five or six little stick figures kind of floating upwards, okay? | ||
| Oh, that's a pretty clear symbol. | ||
| You know what it means. | ||
| I know what it means. | ||
| Underneath, it says three words, next five miles. | ||
| Now, check it out. | ||
| I use that. | ||
| I believe that that is a Rorschach test of our culture. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| I believe that that is a symbolic test of a social experiment that has been wildly successful. | ||
| You know why? | ||
| Every single time I throw that up, I do it without a comment. | ||
| I just put it on the screen. | ||
| Well, of course, what happens is what you did. | ||
| People crack up. | ||
| And then I say to them, now check it out. | ||
| Why do you get this joke? | ||
| Why does this mean something? | ||
| Well, because our culture has been, as you point out, inundated with this kind of material. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Now, what is the real consequence of this? | ||
| The real consequence of it is that people have gotten so used to the idea that abduction is real that this extraordinarily bizarre abstraction in this cartoon doesn't phase them anymore. | ||
| And that, to me, is a monumental event. | ||
| What does the 2020 group do in trying to predict the future? | ||
| Do you look at social trends? | ||
| What generally do you study, whatever the subject would be, UFOs or anything else? | ||
| How do you approach trying to formulate what might be the future? | ||
| Well, of course, I use a wide variety of sources. | ||
| I use research that is conducted by other people. | ||
| I use news as it is reported in the straight press, both television and print. | ||
| I use my own field work. | ||
| And I have to compare notes constantly with the work of other people. | ||
| It really, futurism is an inexact science, and we don't predict the future. | ||
| What we do is we look at trends and try to determine their strength, try to determine their direction. | ||
| And we say, if we understand this trend, can we project its likely outcome? | ||
| So then with regard to the UFOs and all of what you've been describing so far this morning, you would take this then to be a very strong trend. | ||
| Very strong trend. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Do you draw any conclusions? | ||
| In other words, is this preparatory work? | ||
| And if so, do you draw any conclusions about when? | ||
| No, I don't draw any conclusions about when. | ||
| I'll tell you why, because as far as I can tell, there remains no political advantage at all to coming clean on this subject. | ||
| I think that the whole process is being pushed primarily by the alien intelligence, which remains utterly inscrutable. | ||
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We have no idea what these guys are up to. | |
| We don't know who they are, where they're from, or what they want. | ||
| But I do think that if there is an acceleration underway, and I have a sense there is, but I can't prove that, the acceleration is being driven entirely by the aliens. | ||
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The human sign has been foot-dragging as hard as ever. | |
| The cattle mids are actually caught in the rocket hardware. | ||
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Everything there is the fact that the aliens are here. | |
| And that's a fake view to what it's about. | ||
| At the hard place is that they've been lying about it for 45 years. | ||
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Okay? | |
| Now, people are very tired of being reminded that the government's lying to them. | ||
| It happens time and time again. | ||
| I happen to think the lies that have been told about the UFO phenomenon do not, by and large, represent bad people doing something bad. | ||
| I think these people were scared. | ||
| I think they did what they thought they had to do. | ||
| I think they formed very hard decisions around very hard information. | ||
| I think it really freaked them out. | ||
| But I also think today they're stuck with the very nasty fallout of the project. | ||
| What do you think the logic was as they sat around deciding that this information had to be kept from the public? | ||
| What train of logic do you think they used in deciding that? | ||
| I believe there are at least five or six different reasons which all are kind of interlocking. | ||
| Reason number one, certainly, was that in 1947, if not sooner, in fact, probably during World War II, when they had the Foo Fighter phenomenon, which was very strong, and then the ghost rockets over Scandinavia and other places right after the war, especially in 1947, just after we had invented the atomic bomb, we had Jonathan Stalin on the scene, we had new technologies that destroyed radar and so forth. | ||
| I mean, we had entered a new era, and suddenly we got flying saucers literally littering the sky, but also littering the ground outside Roswell, New Mexico, and other places. | ||
| And suddenly we've got a very real question. | ||
| Are we being invaded from space? | ||
| Militarily speaking, that was absolutely the question of the day. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And the military was on high alert. | ||
| So, first of all, okay, here's about. | ||
| We just defeated the worst character of history. | ||
| We just invented these power. | ||
| Not on your life. | ||
| If we've got aliens, is there anything we can do about them? | ||
| Doesn't look like it. | ||
| Why circles around everything we've got? | ||
| Who are these guys? | ||
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Where are they from? | |
| What do they want? | ||
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Those three questions still bother us today, but they were really troubling back then. | |
| So that's problem number one. | ||
| We got an invasion. | ||
| Can't tell the people. | ||
| What can we tell them? | ||
| Yep, we'll be invaded from space. | ||
| Can't do a thing about it. | ||
| Sorry. | ||
| Very bad political problem there. | ||
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Yeah, I suppose. | |
| The second reason was that they thought that even if we didn't have to, even if we didn't have aliens in space, what we did have was we had a vast proliferation of stories of flying crosses, and they were really worried that it would cause public panic and pandemonium no matter what. | ||
| And so the CIA by 1952 was recommending to President Eisenhower that they institute a policy, official policy of debunking. | ||
| And the reason was not that they thought the aliens were actually a national security risk. | ||
| In fact, by 1952, they had actually lowered their estimation of the risk involved in the aliens themselves because the aliens were not showing overt hostility, but they did think that public interest in the subject was a terrible problem. | ||
| And so they actually said, we've got to get people to stop thinking about this. | ||
| And how they did it was a combination of denial and ridicule. | ||
| Now, the third reason for secrecy, without a doubt, was they really thought they might have a secret weapon on their hands here. | ||
| Now, if you, for example, if some very deep inside group knew that we had recovered alien wreckage from Roswell, I happen to think we did. | ||
| Many others do too. | ||
| So some inside group knows about this, and they're looking at an alien spacecraft. | ||
| They're looking at alien technology on board, and they think to themselves, wait a minute, isn't this what we want? | ||
| Don't we want the ultimate edge? | ||
| Is this the ultimate edge? | ||
| Have we got something here that no one else has got, no one else can get for a thousand years? | ||
| Is this it? | ||
| Is this the Pandora's box? | ||
| And are we going to keep that secret? | ||
| You bet your life we're going to keep that secret. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So I'm saying that there are a number of reasons. | ||
| We could trot out a few more, but you get the picture? | ||
| I do. | ||
| And I want to talk to you about the public panic aspect of it. | ||
| Now, with what's been going on in modern society, people like you talking to people like our audience, has the public panic aspect of it, should there be a revelation about all this, has that changed? | ||
| Would the public still panic? | ||
| Is it well, in your view, that they would be told or now, or should it be kept as deep and dark as ever? | ||
| I think we have to try our best to become more open to this possibility. | ||
| I think the real danger is sudden revelation of something totally unexpected. | ||
| People don't handle that well, never have. | ||
| All right. | ||
| I ask just about every researcher this, and you sound like you'd be a good candidate, if you had incontrovertible evidence that you could go on television and trot out, and suddenly it would all be open, out in the open, would you do it? | ||
| It would depend on the nature of the evidence. | ||
| If the evidence were the kind that had the overt appearance of something extremely hostile or extremely scary, I would have a lot of second thoughts about it, but I would want to move in the direction of revealing it as fast as possible. | ||
| Knowing that I had the smoking gun in my hands, I would do everything in my power to bring people along fast to where they could actually grasp it at a later date. | ||
| Now, if it were not very scary, very hostile kind of material, I would say, yes, let's bring it out. | ||
| I would. | ||
| And I think that there has been enough change, enough evolution of human awareness that we could probably get away with it. | ||
| But whenever it happens, it's risky. | ||
| I don't see any time in the foreseeable future when it wouldn't be risky, but it becomes increasingly untenable to stall for more time. | ||
| Risky for the American public, risky for the aliens, risky for our government that would be seen to be lying for many years, or risky to all of them? | ||
| I cannot speak at all for the aliens position, but I can speak to the idea that the government that has tried so hard to keep this under wraps has always perceived grave political risk in saying anything really legitimate about this. | ||
| I don't think those risks are substantially changed, although I think that I said, with the containment of the secrecy absolutely breached, there's a lot of effort to bring people along. | ||
| The risk is that people won't handle it well or that it will precipitate unpredictable changes. | ||
| This confronts so many of our basic belief structures. | ||
| We don't know what alien technology will do to our science. | ||
| We just don't know. | ||
| We certainly don't know what revelations of alien activity on this planet are going to do to our religious structures. | ||
| And I have a feeling it's going to do something pretty horrendous. | ||
| Not necessarily bad, but in the short run, it's going to look like a lot of cherished belief systems are being assaulted by something, you know, akin to... | ||
| Could produce violence. | ||
| Would produce violence. | ||
| I'm convinced of it. | ||
| I speak with people on this program every week and on related subjects on other programs. | ||
| And I'm telling you right now, if Jesus Christ came back, somebody would fill him full of lead. | ||
| People wouldn't, or he'd be thrown into an insane asylum. | ||
| And people just don't handle that kind of thing well, Michael. | ||
| When you challenge their belief systems, the usual response is anger. | ||
| I agree with you. | ||
| I think that that right there, you put your finger on the risk. | ||
| And that is why I say there is no time in the foreseeable future when we're going to be able to eliminate the risk. | ||
| But we also cannot eliminate the fact that this is happening. | ||
| And so what I feel we have to do is bring people along as fast as we can with the strongest, most credible, most balanced material we can find, and bring them along to where there will not be a huge surprise. | ||
| Because sooner or later, this is going to be in our face. | ||
| We don't have a choice about that. | ||
| We're only stalling for time right now. | ||
| Well, my guest this morning, following you, Michael, is Don Berliner, who wrote Crash at Corona. | ||
| So it should be an opportunity to look into what seemed to begin it all and is cited today as the best evidence, I suppose, that we're being visited. | ||
| By the way, do you agree with that, with all the new information coming out about the crash in New Mexico? | ||
| Is that about the best evidence? | ||
| Whenever I give a talk, I tell my audiences that I feel it is basically fundamentally important that they pick up one or another of the major Roswell books, and there have been several good ones lately, including the one that Don and Stan Friedman wrote, and just learn the basic chronology. | ||
| It is the most important single case we have. | ||
| I think it's also important to recognize that it's not the only case, that there are many, many other strong corroborating cases. | ||
| But Roswell sets the tone in so many ways because it has so many quality witnesses. | ||
| It has all of the features, all of the claims for the basic UFO phenomena are there. | ||
| The technology, the recovery, the bodies, the witnesses, and the cover-up, all in one huge, beautifully packaged picture. | ||
| And if we had no other case but that case, we would have enough to build something pretty strong. | ||
| Fascinating and fascinating getting all this from your perspective as somebody who looks at trends and toward the future. | ||
| And you see all of this increasing towards some, toward what, Michael, toward a revelation eventually? | ||
| And how do you picture it coming? | ||
| Will somebody come out with the President of the United States, trot out with a big primetime evening news address and tell the American people the truth suddenly? | ||
| Or how do you think it might occur? | ||
| Well, as I think I've already tried to intimate, I don't really think there's any political advantage in just trotting out the truth. | ||
| I think that remains. | ||
| Well, the government usually trots out the truth when they have to. | ||
| In other words, when somebody else is about to reveal something or it's going to break in the Washington Post or who knows what, they try to get out ahead of it. | ||
| Well, indeed. | ||
| And I think they, as I say, in some instances, with MJ-12 as a striking example, they have been trotting out pieces of quasi-truth. | ||
| The problem is, this is a very complicated subject at best. | ||
| It's highly ambiguous. | ||
| They can trot out a lot of stuff that ain't true, but that looks pretty interesting. | ||
| And so it's going to be difficult for anyone to know precisely when they're hearing the truth. | ||
| Well, that's it. | ||
| Short of, say, the president announcing something, Don, I've thought about this many times. | ||
| If you consider the Kennedy assassination, which has a million theories, just like the UFO business does, if Don Berliner or anybody else came out with yet another, you would purport it to be the truth, and you would have a film, and you would have trajectories showing how the bullet went and all the rest of it, it would be, Don, when all was said and done, still just one more theory thrown onto the pile. | ||
| And even if it were the absolute truth, it would be lost in the shuffle. | ||
| It could be lost in the shuffle. | ||
| That is correct. | ||
| Obviously, if it came from the lips of the President or the Secretary of Defense or somebody like that, it would carry all kinds of additional weight. | ||
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But I think what we have right now is a growing national conversation. | |
| Your show as an example, and alongside your show, literally hundreds, maybe thousands of other venues that are cropping up around the country and mostly in local markets that are bringing out this material. | ||
| We've got more credible research being put out in print and in television work than ever before, by far. | ||
| And so what we see here is a sort of a building momentum of information which helps the entire situation along. | ||
| I think I have a personal concern that people need to be brought into this gently because none of us handle this kind of surprise very well. | ||
| You've made that point yourself and you're absolutely right. | ||
| So again, we can't just pitch it to them and expect them to take it lying down. | ||
| It's not going to happen that way. | ||
| But bringing them along is very important. | ||
| All right, Don, we're woefully short on time here running over, but you would make a really good guest, and I would like to suggest to Angela Thompson that she contact you from the foundation and perhaps think of you as a guest. | ||
| You'd make a good full evening guest. | ||
| Well, thank you very much. | ||
| I'd be very happy to do that. | ||
| All right, Michael, we've got a scoot, and you may want to put Linda on one more time, but please let's follow up on that. | ||
| I'd like to have you as a guest. | ||
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All right, I will see to it that we get that information to you. | |
| And here's Linda. | ||
| All right, thank you, Michael Linda. | ||
| Hi. | ||
| Hi, Linda. | ||
| Boy, he'd make a great guest. | ||
| Well, I think so, too. | ||
| I've always thought that. | ||
| Michael and I have had long and complex discussions for the last four years on a lot of these issues. | ||
| And next Sunday, I believe, I'm on the docket for you to log questions to me about some of these facts and eyewitnesses that are global and are supporting the at least circumstantial evidence that something else is involved with our planet. | ||
| And I think this current interview that you've just done with Michael Lindeman underscores the difficulty that the government has in getting this out and that some of us who are writing and producing television shows may, in the long run, be the people who are helping them tell the story that they can't tell easily. | ||
| Okay, Linda, I will look forward to speaking with you, as everybody else will, next week as a guest. | ||
| And I want to thank you for being here this morning and bringing Michael Linterman. | ||
| He was really fascinating. | ||
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All right. | |
| Well, thanks. | ||
| And I know that Don Berwiner also has deep knowledge about the Roswell incident. | ||
| So that's the dynamic. | ||
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All right. | |
| Number 50. | ||
| Just one moment, John Berliner. | ||
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War! | |
| War! | ||
| From Jackie Gonz Plaza downtown. | ||
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This is KDWN, Las Vegas. | |
| Good evening, everybody. | ||
| You're listening to Area 2000. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| And now, John Berliner, a staff writer for the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, between 1965 and 1998, a member of the Executive Committee and National Board of the Fund for UFO Research since 1987. | ||
| He wrote, or co-wrote, I guess, or wrote, Crash at Corona, published by Paragon House in 1992. | ||
| He is a full-time self-employed aviation and science writer since 1969, with 20 books, hundreds of magazine articles published on American and European aviation history, sporting aviation, space, and science. | ||
| And Don Berliner comes to us from Alexandria, Virginia, so to the state of Virginia we go. | ||
| Mr. Berliner, good evening. | ||
| Good evening to you, Art. | ||
| Welcome to the program. | ||
| This is all the information that I have on you, but I guess you wrote Crash at Corona, correct? | ||
| Yeah, Stan Friedman did the investigation, and I wrote the book. | ||
| And you wrote the book. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| I guess let's begin there, if we can, Don. | ||
| It is, by so many people that I've had on this program, considered to be, without a doubt, the best evidence, and there's a lot of new information coming forth now. | ||
| What would you say about it, having written that book? | ||
| Well, certainly the case is the most thoroughly investigated, and it's the most thoroughly supported. | ||
| More impressive witnesses who were involved in a variety of aspects of the case than in any other case, anything remotely comparable. | ||
| It's not the perfect case. | ||
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There is no such thing, I suppose. | |
| If we had a body or if we had a big pile of wreckage, I guess that would make it perfect. | ||
| But short of that, it's as close as we have gotten so far to what we've all been chasing after for a very long time. | ||
| Let me just diverge for a moment. | ||
| You heard, I'm sure, Michael Lindemann, and he works on trends and where we're headed with this whole thing. | ||
| I wonder if you generally concur with what he had to say regarding the public's eventual knowing or knowledge of everything that's going on. | ||
| In general, yeah, I agree with some parts of what he said, disagree with other parts, but eventually this has to come out, whether it comes out by the government voluntarily releasing the information or whether the government's forced into doing it or whether it comes out as a result of some major change in alien behavior. | ||
| That's anybody's guess. | ||
| You are convinced the government does know and is covering all this up? | ||
| Close to 100% convinced. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| As close as is needed to keep going in this. | ||
| What's done it for you? | ||
| Is it writing the book on Corona? | ||
| Oh, no. | ||
| I've been in the game for quite a while. | ||
| I go back to the mid-60s with NICAP. | ||
| Prior to that, I worked on newspapers and covered UFO stories. | ||
| Oh, back in the early 50s, I'm trying to, that's a long time, trying to get this clear in my own mind. | ||
| I was involved in investigating reports and tracking this, that, and the other. | ||
| So it's come gradually. | ||
| You've studied UFO history, particularly 1944 to 1952, I guess. | ||
| How do you compare that period of time with today or with the last few years? | ||
| Oh, very, very different. | ||
| In the early days, the late 40s, early 50s, most sighting reports involved daylight observations where the witness or witnesses were able to produce considerable information on shape, color, detail, maneuvers, that sort of thing. | ||
| Today, we get, by and large, funny lights in the night sky, which are next to worthless. | ||
| The subject was frequently on the front page of the paper. | ||
| This is not the case anymore. | ||
| In fact, sightings are a minor part of it anymore. | ||
| The focus seems to have moved toward the abduction phenomenon. | ||
| Yeah, very definitely. | ||
| Very definitely. | ||
| And another big change is that there's considerable interest among scientifically trained people. | ||
| In the case of abductions, interest in the mental health community, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. | ||
| By the way, while we're on that subject, and I'll try and dig it out, there is an Associated Press report this morning on exactly that topic, and I'm trying to figure out what I might have done with it. | ||
| I'll try and locate it, but it's out this morning showing that people who have seen UFOs and have been tested are psychologically no more impaired than anybody else. | ||
| Interesting, I like the test. | ||
| I'll see what I can do. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But back to this idea of comparing the early days with today, I don't see much in the flow of similarity, frankly. | ||
| There was far more public interest in the subject many, many years ago. | ||
| They say it was on the front pages, it was on the radio, on television when television became common. | ||
| Today, most of the coverage we see is unfortunately under the heading of entertainment because there is not all that much breaking news on the subject, gradual trends, gradual development, but hardly any spectacular sightings that produce news coverage, that warrant news coverage. | ||
| And so with abductions, they're so complicated and they are so emotional and so personal, they're very difficult to cover. | ||
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And so the terrible person are wearing poor Landy. | |
| And so. | ||
| All right, let's go backwards. | ||
| You wrote the book, Crash Corona. | ||
| Tell me a little bit about that crash. | ||
| What impresses you so much and everybody else about it? | ||
| And what's new in terms of people coming forward? | ||
| What impresses me is the witnesses. | ||
| After that, this is how you have in the great majority of UFO incidents, whether they're conventional sightings or crashes and retrievals or whatever. | ||
| Neither you nor I was there when it happened, so all we have is the testimony of people who claim to have been there and seen something very unusual. | ||
| In the case of the crash near Corona, New Mexico in 47, it's the number of witnesses, the caliber of those witnesses, the behavior of the witnesses. | ||
| All right, how many were there? | ||
| Witnesses? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Oh, boy, I don't. | ||
| Oh, over a dozen first-hand witnesses and more than that many second-hand witnesses. | ||
| I've heard claims of hundreds, four, five, six hundred. | ||
| I don't believe anything of the sort. | ||
| And you don't need that many. | ||
| We've had that many witnesses to UFO sightings, and it really didn't make a whole lot of difference. | ||
| How much did the witnesses actually see? | ||
| When we say witnesses, are we talking about people who saw the crash itself, saw the pieces on the ground, saw the alien bodies that some people have talked about? | ||
| What kind of witness testimony are we talking about here? | ||
| We're talking about people who saw and handled wreckage and can describe it in detail. | ||
| We're talking about people who say they were involved in SGIs, in creating a rough, loading it on military aircraft, members of crews that flew this stuff out from Roswell Army Airfield, | ||
| including pilots of the transport airplane, people who were involved in the cover-up, people who claim to have seen the remains at other bases. | ||
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After Randolph Cup. | |
| Oh, well, after battle, we'll have a work of battle. | ||
| There never has been since, Roswell, an incident of similar seriousness, has there? | ||
| There have been a lot of rumors. | ||
| Len Springfield from Cincinnati, Ohio is the keeper of the archives of that sort of thing, and he's got dozens of reports from people who talk about other crashes. | ||
| However, with the exception of the crash near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in 1965, I'm not aware that any of the others has been investigated to any great extent or has been substantiated. | ||
| They remain very interesting rumors. | ||
| It's quite possible that if people put the same kind of effort into one of those additional cases that we put into the New Mexico business, it would rate right up there with it. | ||
| But it hasn't been done, to my knowledge. | ||
| And so this particular thing in 1947 pretty much stands alone in its detail and believability and strengthening. | ||
| All right. | ||
| How much of that story of Roswell do you buy? | ||
| For example, do you buy the fact that there were bodies? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We've gotten testimony from enough people who claim to have seen them, who described them the same way, and who had reason to be where they were. | ||
| The whole thing seems perfectly logical. | ||
| Yeah, I accept these stories. | ||
| I wouldn't shoot myself if they were proven wrong. | ||
| But by and large, I find them acceptable. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Do you have any idea where those bodies are? | ||
| Certainly they've been preserved one way or the other. | ||
| Where are they? | ||
| Haven't the faintest idea. | ||
| There have been lots of stories over the years of bodies being seen in storage at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| But that doesn't mean they're still there, assuming they were there. | ||
| It shouldn't be all that difficult to move them at night. | ||
| And so... | ||
| How much evidence is there that what crashed in New Mexico was not some sort of secret government something or another, but indeed something secret, something that they then transported, but something other than alien? | ||
| Well, you have to look at the possibilities, and that's very important. | ||
| You can't just accept this because it's so darn colorful and exciting. | ||
| You have to challenge the assumption that aliens were involved. | ||
| And so you've got to look at what else it might have been. | ||
| All right, when you challenge it, how well does the alien theory hold up? | ||
| Far better than any of the others. | ||
| In other words, if you just start picking away at the details that I'm sure even you chronicled in Crash at Corona and start picking away and picking away, how many things can you dismiss from a debunker's point of view? | ||
| Complicated question. | ||
| The alternative explanations that I'm aware of concern balloons, airplanes, and rockets. | ||
| None of these things was made of materials that remotely resemble what people said was found on the sheep ranch near Corona. | ||
| Not a slight difference, a great difference. | ||
| Plus, and there was always a possibility that some advanced aircraft or weapon of some sort was made of some new type of material, but it also would have included conventional materials and parts, rivets, bolts, nuts, screws, whatever. | ||
| Nothing of the sort has ever been reported among the wreckage that was found. | ||
| I have also heard rumors, Don, that there is existing in private hands pieces of wreckage. | ||
| Have you heard that? | ||
| Oh, sure. | ||
| I'd be surprised if that weren't the case. | ||
| We keep trying to follow up on leads and as yet have gotten nowhere, but there are lots of stories. | ||
| And let's face it, it fits in with human nature. | ||
| If I had been one of the GIs assigned to help clean up the sheep ranch after the crash, I certainly would have tried to pocket something. | ||
| If I had been clever enough, I might have gotten away with it. | ||
| And that would be somewhere today. | ||
| We've heard from a number of people who have reasonable stories about seeing scraps of material long after the crash. | ||
| But as yet, we haven't found any. | ||
| All right, I promised you this story. | ||
| This cleared the wire literally a couple of hours ago. | ||
| I thought you might find it interesting along with the audience. | ||
| A new study says people who think they've seen a UFO or space alien are no crazier than the rest of us. | ||
| Researchers found that UFO reporters scored no worse than others on tests of psychological health, intelligence, and fantasy proneness. | ||
| Study co-author Patricia Cross of Carlton University in Ottawa says they appeared to be, quote, very normal, end quote. | ||
| Cross reports the work in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology. | ||
| The finding does not mean these people actually spotted a UFO or space alien. | ||
| Cross thinks many misrepresented unfamiliar sights or experiences and were influenced by a prior belief in visits by space aliens. | ||
| But she says the findings contradict the idea that these people have wild imaginations and are easily swayed into believing the unbelievable. | ||
| Fascinating. | ||
| Well, we're done. | ||
| Maybe you could facts that, a copy of that to me. | ||
| I would be glad to do it. | ||
| I don't know if I have your fax number here or not. | ||
| I don't think so. | ||
| Okay, I'll give it to you off the air. | ||
| All right. | ||
| So there you are. | ||
| And I must tell you, Don, and maybe you can comment on this. | ||
| I had my own sighting. | ||
| I'm 48 years old. | ||
| Never saw a thing like it in my life, Don. | ||
| One night on the way home from work, my wife on a very lonely country road, I live about 65 miles west of Las Vegas. | ||
| As we were approaching home or near home, she said, what the hell is that? | ||
| And looked over my shoulder. | ||
| I was driving. | ||
| I said, I don't know. | ||
| And I stopped the car, turned off the engine, totally quiet. | ||
| You could only hear crickets, Don, a quarter of a mile away. | ||
| That tells you how quiet it was. | ||
| Here comes this gigantic, triangular, very dark shape about 150 feet above me, not high at all, with lights on, white lights on two sides and a strobing red light on the front of the triangle. | ||
| It was close enough to me, there was a moon out, that I could see it perfectly. | ||
| I could actually make out the mass, the black mass of this thing. | ||
| And it was going slowly, could not have been supported in aerodynamic flight at that speed. | ||
| I would describe it as floating, floated just almost directly over my car and kept going out across the valley. | ||
| It was totally silent, not even the sound of rushing air, and could not have been flying as we understand flying. | ||
| And it was big, 100, maybe 150 feet from one edge of the triangle to the other. | ||
| It was monstrous. | ||
| I've never seen anything like it in my life, Don. | ||
| We live close to Area 51. | ||
| We're just one valley over, so it might have been government experimental, but I'll guarantee it's technology that I'm not aware of. | ||
| It certainly doesn't fit anything I know about the science of aerodynamics. | ||
| But we got a lot of reports from that general area of quite peculiar flying things. | ||
| Well, if it is ours, A, I'm glad we have it, very glad. | ||
| B, it's technology that hasn't even been hinted at because this thing was large and quiet. | ||
| And I'm telling you, Don, I've never seen anything like it in my life, and I don't expect to ever again, but it was quite an experience. | ||
| I can imagine. | ||
| And my wife saw it as well. | ||
| So there you have it. | ||
| We have something, or they have something. | ||
| What do you know about our technology? | ||
| Since you write about aviation, what do we have? | ||
| I don't know how we would make one of those, frankly. | ||
| But just because I don't know doesn't mean that the people in charge of making things like that don't know. | ||
| After all, the most advanced airplanes that are generally known to the public are Lockheed's SR-71 Blackbird spy plane, which has been retired and is 25-28-year-old technology, and Lockheed's stealth fighter, which has been around for quite a few years. | ||
| So we have to have more advanced types of aircraft. | ||
| And I don't know what we've learned in the past couple of decades that has been kept secret. | ||
| Well, is it your view that we are privy to some alien technology? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I don't see any evidence of it. | ||
| I will not go so far as to assume that this strange thing you saw was not developed by one of the aerospace companies strictly on its own. | ||
| They've done some pretty good work over the years. | ||
| It might be the result of acquired technology, but without some evidence, I won't go that far. | ||
| Well, what did, you know, if there was a crash at Corona, what did we learn from that, do you suppose? | ||
| In other words, we must have had the pieces and parts and bodies and this and that, so presumably we'd try to reverse engineer or learn whatever we could learn from it. | ||
| Oh, sure. | ||
| And people have been looking at major advances in technology whose origins are a bit misty and could have come from that. | ||
| Obviously, nobody's going to include on his patent application that he started with a chunk of alien spacecraft. | ||
| And so he's got to cover it up with some kind of acute story. | ||
| But you can never cover up anything completely. | ||
| And so there are a number of things being looked at as possibly having come out of the wreckage. | ||
| Relatively simple things. | ||
| When you get into really high-tech stuff, you're over my head. | ||
| And it would take somebody with real scientific knowledge to look at that. | ||
| But consider something like Velcro. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| It appeared not long after the crash. | ||
| Now, it's credited to a Swiss who said he was walking his dog in the woods and noticed how the burrs clung to his trousers and the dog's coat, and he invented Velcro. | ||
| That may be true. | ||
| And it may not be true because a number of the reports of people who claim to have seen the bodies say that their uniforms were held together without common devices, buttons, zippers, etc. | ||
| It's a possibility that deserves to be looked at, and it is being looked at. | ||
| Really? | ||
| So Velcro could actually be technology from elsewhere. | ||
| Could be. | ||
| Not saying it is. | ||
| I don't want the listeners. | ||
| I understand. | ||
| I never considered that. | ||
| I don't know where the patent payments would go, but maybe it's the aliens and bank accounts. | ||
| Anyway, another possibility is the transistor. | ||
| Oh, yes. | ||
| Certainly the transistor marked a change in our whole science, in our whole future, and has allowed almost all of the advances since. | ||
| Oh, we'd still be playing around with radios having vacuum tubes if it weren't for the transistor and what it led to. | ||
| And there is reason to be suspicious of the development of the transistor. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Semiconductor technology, why? | ||
| Well, according to a history of Bell Labs, and that's where the transistor supposedly was invented, it appeared rather suddenly. | ||
| I've seen a reference in one Encyclopedia of Science, I forget the exact name of it, where they said the transistor didn't say it was invented at Beldaz, they said it was discovered. | ||
| Well, you discover something that's already in existence. | ||
| You invent something brand new. | ||
| It's true. | ||
| And so, and it, again, like Velcro, it emerged shortly after the crash. | ||
| Oh, I believe in December 1947, which is just a few months after the Corona crash. | ||
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So intriguing. | |
| No proof and not very solid evidence for that matter, but enough, I think, to warrant investigation. | ||
| Was the, and this is, I guess, a technical question. | ||
| You may not be able to answer it, but it's a good one. | ||
| Was semiconductor technology at that point a logical leap from the place where we were? | ||
| Or is it, in fact, an illogical leap? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| You're over my head there. | ||
| It's a very good question, though. | ||
| And I don't know that you can answer the same question with regard to Velcro, but certainly with the transistor, it seems to me somebody who's familiar with technical history and I know something about it could tell us whether that's a logical or illogical technological leap. | ||
| Good question. | ||
| Maybe a listener knows something. | ||
| Perhaps so. | ||
| So at any rate, given all the evidence that you've studied and all your study, you are absolutely convinced this is real? | ||
| They say almost 100% convinced. | ||
| 100% only when I have a piece of the thing in my hand. | ||
| But short of that, yeah. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| What about a modern piece of evidence, something a little more modern? | ||
| What about all the sightings, for example, in Florida? | ||
| Is there anything of modern significance, the abduction phenomenon, somebody you may have talked to that would be of great modern significance? | ||
| What would you cite as the best current evidence? | ||
| I think we have to go back to the way we looked at things during the heyday of daylight sightings. | ||
| No one sighting meant that much. | ||
| No one abduction case means that much. | ||
| It's the great stack of them that mean something. | ||
| Any one case can be discounted, I suppose. | ||
| But when you've got hundreds of them that all say approximately the same thing, then you've got something of great consequence. | ||
| Is it your view that all of this is benign or in some way malevolent? | ||
| Have you made that decision yourself yet? | ||
| I haven't. | ||
| No. | ||
| I don't see any particular evidence of evil intent. | ||
| And there again, this is something we used to talk about back in the great days of fighting. | ||
| There were several cases of pilots, military pilots, being lost on attempted intercepts of UFOs. | ||
| Some people took this as proof that they were bad guys. | ||
| I never thought that way. | ||
| All right, Don, I'm going to ask you to rest, just sit down and rest for five minutes, and we'll do a newscast and come back and open the telephones and let some people talk with you. | ||
| How's that? | ||
| Don Berliner is my guest. | ||
| Stay right there, Don. | ||
| We'll be back. | ||
| You're listening to Area 2000, an occurrence on Sunday evening each, beginning at 8 o'clock, 8 till 10 o'clock each Sunday. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| There's more with Don Berliner in a moment. | ||
| From Jackie Don's Pleasant Downtown. | ||
| This is KDWN Las Vegas. | ||
|
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KDWN Las Vegas. | |
| Good evening. | ||
| Welcome back to Area 2000. | ||
| My name is Art Bell. | ||
| And I want to remind all of you that what you're listening to is provided by the Bigelow Foundation. | ||
| And that's a non-trivial matter. | ||
| They're arranging for all this. | ||
| They arrange for guests. | ||
| They sponsor the program with a grant. | ||
| And that's why we're here. | ||
| If you'd like to contact the Bigelow Foundation, would like something investigated, or you'd like to make a comment on the program, contact Angela Thompson, please. | ||
| She's your contact at the Bigelow Foundation. | ||
| Angela Thompson, Area Code 702-456-1606. | ||
| And it probably wouldn't hurt just to call and thank them for doing this. | ||
| That's area code 702-456-1606 if you enjoy the program. | ||
| My guest is Don Berliner. | ||
| If you have a comment or a question, here are the relevant telephone numbers in the Las Vegas metropolitan area. | ||
| The number is 383-8255. | ||
| 383-8255. | ||
| Out of state, toll free. | ||
| It's 1-800-338-8255. | ||
| 1-800-338-8255. | ||
| Then we have the wild card direct aisle lines. | ||
| Let them ring until they're answered. | ||
| Area code 702-385-7214-7214. | ||
| And finally, if you have never called at all, the first time caller line at area code 702-385-7213, 7213. | ||
| Back to our guest now, Don Berliner. | ||
| Don, are you still there? | ||
| I am. | ||
| Are you ready for your public? | ||
| I guess so. | ||
| One quick question first, Don. | ||
| You've written Crash at Corona. | ||
| What might be next for you? | ||
| Are you working on anything now, or do you plan another? | ||
| Not working on anything on UFOs at the moment. | ||
| But my agent has some little ideas he's trying to sell. | ||
| I'm back doing aviation stuff right now. | ||
| I see. | ||
| All right, fine. | ||
| Well, it makes you well qualified to comment on things that do fly. | ||
| All right, let's see what we've got on the telephone. | ||
| On our first-time caller line, you're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| Hello, Art, Don. | ||
| My name is Mike. | ||
| I'm calling from San Luis Obispo, California. | ||
| And I am kind of playing tick up with a lot of the evidence that's coming out. | ||
| I've been reading since my own lost time experiences and sightings. | ||
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And I'd like to ask Don a kind of a critical question. | |
| And I'll just ask my question and then let you answer on the air. | ||
| Okay. | ||
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First, is the evidence that you know of substantial enough to suggest that the events described in Whitley Strubber's Communion or other books are real in the common sense? | |
| And what are the scientific theories that make this possible? | ||
| And could you just comment on the roundroom experience? | ||
| All right, let's see what we can do with all that. | ||
| Okay, as far as the legitimacy of Whitley Streeber's experiences, as described primarily in his first book, Communion, they fit in pretty well with what hundreds and hundreds of other people have described. | ||
| And so, yeah, I would assume that this probably did happen to him. | ||
| Now, most of his writings on the subject are wrapped up in his own philosophy, his own attempts To explain what was going on, and that's strictly Whitley. | ||
| But his descriptions of his experiences fit in very neatly with other people's descriptions of their experiences. | ||
| So either they're all genuine or they're all something else. | ||
| And so I tend to think that he probably experienced what he described. | ||
| And of course, he's far more capable of describing things than the great majority of people. | ||
| He asked about theories that validate it. | ||
| Well, I don't think there are any. | ||
| I think all this stuff is outside our theories, our scientific theories. | ||
| And that's one of the puzzling and one of the fascinating aspects of it. | ||
| This is something very, very new and different. | ||
| All right, and finally, what in the world is the round room? | ||
| I've never heard of that. | ||
| That makes two of us. | ||
| Oh. | ||
| I don't know what that is. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Very good. | ||
| Line one, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
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Hi, this is Mike in Las Vegas. | |
| Hi, Mike. | ||
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And I'd like to ask you, Art, when you'll be having your guest back on who spoke about the Philadelphia experiment. | |
| And secondly, I'd like to ask Don if anyone has ever reported encountering female aliens. | ||
| Thanks. | ||
| Okay, thank you. | ||
| I'll answer the first question. | ||
| Al Bielick will be back on. | ||
| I don't yet know when. | ||
| I had him on my syndicated program in the early morning some time ago, and we'll have him on again. | ||
| Your turn, Don. | ||
| Female aliens. | ||
| I'm losing my mind. | ||
| Female aliens. | ||
| Female aliens. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| Quite a few reports of female aliens. | ||
| Some of the reports indicate that the witness didn't know why he or she considered them female, but was convinced they were female. | ||
| But in some cases, they were female-shaped. | ||
| Other cases, it wasn't clear why they seemed to be female. | ||
| But that certainly is part of it. | ||
| Would it be your view, Don, that there are aliens on Earth now? | ||
| Some people suggest that. | ||
| I've never seen any. | ||
| You mean this idea that they're living among us? | ||
| That's right. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| How in the world do you tell? | ||
| I mean, I've had some odd neighbors. | ||
| If they were clever enough, we would never be aware of it. | ||
| And so I think it's a very tough question to deal with. | ||
| I assume that they are continuing their abduction activities, which means there are probably a number of groups of them landed in various farmers' fields around the country right now. | ||
| But as far as aliens who look exactly like people, right there, you've eliminated any mechanism for detecting them. | ||
| That's a very good point. | ||
| Well, good evening. | ||
| It would have been good evening. | ||
| Let's see. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner in Las Vegas. | ||
| Where are you, please? | ||
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I'm calling from Oceanside, California. | |
| Oceanside, yes, sir. | ||
|
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Hi, Mr. Berliner. | |
| Hi, Art. | ||
| Say, for the most part, whenever I hear people talking about things dealing with aliens and visits from outer space, it's always when will the government release the information or how is the government going to do it and things like that. | ||
| How about the possibility of an alien spacecraft just planes coming out of the sky and exposing themselves to some great population center? | ||
| Coming down at, say, the White House, something like that. | ||
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Or anywhere. | |
| Instead of always waiting for the government to reveal some knowledge about spacecraft. | ||
| Well, since we don't have any way of encouraging aliens to do that, and it's obviously very much up to them, we just got to sit back and wait for something to happen. | ||
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Well, it sort of sounds when, you know, for the most part, people seem to think that the government is controlling alien access to Earth. | |
| I think that people feel the government is controlling access to government-held information. | ||
| But not, I don't think the government has a whole lot of control over the alien. | ||
| You don't see evidence of it. | ||
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So what do you think of the possibility of, say, instead of relying on the government, what do you think of the possibility of a spacecraft one day... | |
| Let me rephrase it for Don and listen on the air, please. | ||
| Don, let's try it from this point of view. | ||
| What do you think might happen if an alien spacecraft actually did come down and just hang above a city where it was obvious, nobody could deny it, everybody covered it, CNN rushed over, there it is, an alien spacecraft? | ||
| How do you think that our society, the world, would react? | ||
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Oh, boy. | |
| By asking that question, you're giving me far more credit than I deserve. | ||
| I think some people would insist that it wasn't happening. | ||
| I think some people would panic. | ||
| And I think other people would find it a very interesting event. | ||
| And if it did not appear to be directly threatening to them, probably wouldn't bother the majority of people. | ||
| People become blasé pretty quickly. | ||
| Well, they do, but I think that story would run for a while. | ||
| Actually, Don, it would be, I suppose, the story of all time, wouldn't it? | ||
| Well, it depends. | ||
| If the whole story were that this huge craft hovered over Los Angeles for an hour and let itself be televised, etc., and then flew away, Then the implications wouldn't be all that great. | ||
| However, it landed on second base during the third game of the World Series and a bunch of hideous-looking creatures got out. | ||
| We've got a problem. | ||
| Well, unless people thought they were playing for the Phillies. | ||
| But it could be very, very frightening. | ||
| And so it all depends on what happens, not the mere fact that something significant happens. | ||
| And so the reaction could range all the way from near boredom after the first few minutes to utter terror. | ||
| Utter terror. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Line two, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| The alien tunneling in the Earth, do you know or do you have anything? | ||
| Oh, that is a good question. | ||
| Yes, a lot of people have talked, Don, about alien tunneling and that there are mazes of tunnels that run underground, in some cases, from one state to another. | ||
| What have you heard about that? | ||
| Nothing that impressed me. | ||
| I'd like to see some evidence of it. | ||
| You know, there are lots of theories, but any theory that isn't backed up by something doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. | ||
| And so I don't know who these theories come from and if there is anything to support the theories. | ||
| I'm not aware of anything. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And everybody always wants to know where is all the dirt gone that was taken from these tunnels and all the rest of it. | ||
| So that's not one of the things you give a lot of credence to. | ||
| Oh, not at all. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Wildcard Line 3, you're on the air with Don Berliner in Las Vegas. | ||
| Where are you calling from, please? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm calling from Lake Tahoe. | |
| Lake Tahoe, all right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| And I have an interesting story about sighted aircraft. | ||
| My great-great-grandfather lived in Hillsburg, California, and he sighted an airship in 1897. | ||
| And they didn't know what to really call it or how to explain it. | ||
| And he was afraid to report it to the authorities or newspaper because he was afraid he'd be accused of inventing the machine. | ||
| And it emitted a very bright light, such as an arc lamp. | ||
| And it was sighted in San Francisco around the Cal Palace and up and down the west coast, you know, the Pacific coast. | ||
| When was this, actually? | ||
|
unidentified
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1897. | |
| And it was reported. | ||
| I don't have it with me right now. | ||
| It's in my home in Yuba City. | ||
| I'm Nancy from Yuba City. | ||
| Remember Art? | ||
| Yes, Nancy. | ||
| The worst place in the whole U.S. to live. | ||
| Yuba City is what they say. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Anyway, it was sighted at night. | |
| I don't know that it was a balloon. | ||
| I don't know why people would be flying a hot air balloon at night. | ||
| It was in the newspaper, the Healsburg Tribune. | ||
| And I think it was around November and December of those months that they cited it. | ||
| And they explained that it preambulated through the sky. | ||
| Don, what, all right, let me take it from there, Nancy. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Don, what about UFO studies prior to the mid-40s? | ||
| As you go on back, incidents like the one that she just described or others, is there a lot of history prior to the mid-40s? | ||
| Oh, sure. | ||
| In fact, the first recognized wave of sightings was exactly what Nancy was talking about. | ||
| There were reports from coast to coast of what became known as the 1897 airships. | ||
| Not all that much similarity to modern UFOs or flying saucers, except that they were just as mysterious. | ||
| A lot of the reports were obviously phony, created by unscrupulous newspaper reporters, but it appears that there was also something substantial going on that could not be explained by existing lighter-than-aircraft. | ||
| There is almost no lighter-than-aircraft flown in this country. | ||
| Is there enough evidence, in your opinion, to suggest that the UFO phenomenon, as we understand it, has been going on nearly forever, as long as we've been recording events? | ||
| Well, I won't go that far. | ||
| You go much more than 100 years back, and it's really hard to tell because the reports are very vague, hardly any specific bits of information. | ||
| You obviously can't go back and re-interview the witnesses. | ||
| They're all dead. | ||
| Language has changed. | ||
| But there were reports of very peculiar things in the sky 100, 150 years ago. | ||
| Before that, it gets all things murky. | ||
| And it's intriguing, it makes good reading, but it's of no particular scientific value. | ||
| But certainly starting with the 1897 airship wave, which was from coast to coast, something was going on, something as yet unexplained. | ||
| An intriguing area of study. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Intriguing. | ||
| But, of course, no video cameras back then and much less evidence, so it's difficult, but nevertheless, an intriguing area. | ||
| On the first time, caller line, you're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| Yes, good evening. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This is Bob from Las Vegas. | |
| Hi, Bob. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And I enjoyed the book written by Stan Friedman and Don Berliner. | |
| I thought it was quite well done. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| I'm particularly interested in the resolution of the question of where the main crash site is, whether it's somewhere between Corona or in the vicinity of Corona or whether it's in the plains of San Agustin. | ||
| With the credibility of one of the characters in the book, Gerald Anderson, being questioned by several writers, I'm also wondering whether there's a disagreement now between you and Stan about adhering to the plains of San Agustin as the main crash site. | ||
| No, we never considered it the main crash site. | ||
| The way we express it in the book and the way we still see it is there probably were two crashes, separate crashes. | ||
| The great amount of evidence and testimony is for the crash in Corona, near Corona, to the east, in the eastern part of New Mexico. | ||
| The crash in the plains of San Agustin, which is in western New Mexico, the main witness, the main eyewitness, is no longer considered reliable by the care of Anderson. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Was there another witness? | |
| Yes. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Enough other evidence to make us feel there was a crash there. | ||
| It's just that we cannot rely on the details provided by Anderson. | ||
| And so the primary crash, as far as reliability and witnesses and such are concerned, is the crash near Corona. | ||
| And we're still looking for more witnesses to the San Agustin crash, but it does appear that there was one. | ||
| And they probably happened at about the same time and probably were related in some way. | ||
| Whether it was a mid-air collision or what, we don't know. | ||
| But the more substantial event was the one near Corona. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I see. | |
| Were you able to come to any satisfactory conclusion about how or why Mr. Anderson may have given false information if in fact he did? | ||
| No, no. | ||
| You never pin those things down, unfortunately. | ||
| It's not that we think that none of his information is good, but because of his subsequent behavior, we just can't rely on it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I don't know whether the audience is familiar with that. | |
| You may wish to comment on that. | ||
| Well, Gerald Anderson claimed to have been with a group of relatives when they stumbled across an intact craft and three bodies and one live one about 150 miles west of the crash site near Corona at about the same time, early July of 47. | ||
| And he went into great detail describing the bodies and the behavior of the live one and the craft and the damage to it and what it looked like in the damaged area and on and on and on and when the military arrived and what they did. | ||
| And he may well have been there, but he has done and said some things that bother us. | ||
| And so I have written a special preface to the paperback edition, which may or may not be published now, in which we state this clearly, that we unfortunately can't rely on him anymore. | ||
| And that's life. | ||
| This does happen. | ||
| You never can pin down a single witness. | ||
| You can never prove that a witness is telling the truth. | ||
| And so you have to go on your best instincts. | ||
| And in this case, we were wrong. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, thank you very much. | |
| I appreciate it. | ||
| Thank you, Caller. | ||
| Don, if I were in the disinformation business or I wanted to quiet all this down, I think what I would do is I would create a very believable UFO incident, something that really seemed solid. | ||
| And then a little time later, I think I would prove that it was a complete fraud. | ||
| And most of the public, in their minds anyway, would suddenly go, ah, yep, see, nothing to it, really. | ||
| I mean, it would really be a service to the disinformation folks. | ||
| Yeah, but it could also be very difficult to prove that it was a fraud. | ||
| This is certainly the case with the main MJ-12 document, the Eisenhower briefing paper. | ||
| No one has ever proven that it's a hoax, even though a lot of people assume this. | ||
| What is your view? | ||
| That it's almost certainly genuine. | ||
| It may have been jimmied up. | ||
| There may have been some cutting and pasting involved. | ||
| It's certainly incomplete. | ||
| But either it's genuine or it is so close to the real thing that you could hardly tell the two of them apart because it makes sense. | ||
| It fits what reasonably would have been done. | ||
| And there's no way to prove, at this stage of the game at least, that it's genuine because the few people who would know are not going to talk. | ||
| And so far, no one's proven that it's a hoax. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Wild Card Line 3, you're on the air with Don Berliner in Las Vegas. | ||
| Hi. | ||
| Yeah, hi. | ||
| I'm going to take this answer off the air. | ||
| I heard an interview out of Denver with a forensic investigator. | ||
| And he said that microscopic examination of the physical scars inflicted on the abductees appear the same geometric design as the crepsicles. | ||
| And two, he cautioned that aliens conduct deliberate misinformation. | ||
| Nothing they say can be trusted. | ||
| And they wish to discredit all the reports. | ||
| Now this fellow, if you know him, was a Mr. Daryl Sim. | ||
| And just tell me if you know him, then I'll hang up. | ||
| I don't know him, and I have a great question about what he's saying. | ||
| He says aliens are conducting disinformation. | ||
| Well, when they answer, when they answer, he was one for one, and he's got about 200 people that he's working with, and he's an anesthesiologist, hypnotherapist, or whatever. | ||
| It's a mouthful, isn't it? | ||
| Yeah, and he's doing a lot with them. | ||
| And if they ask people us questions, say, what are you doing with us? | ||
| And so on. | ||
| And You can't believe anything they say. | ||
| Yeah, I'll go along with that. | ||
| The answers that people get are generally nonsense. | ||
| Totally. | ||
| But whether that's disinformation or not, we have no way of knowing because we don't know how to think. | ||
| All right, man, we're going to have to scoop. | ||
| Where are you? | ||
| And the two metric design. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| That I haven't heard about. | ||
| But there's such a wide variety of designs and crop formations that you could find something just about anywhere to match one of them. | ||
| Crop formation? | ||
| That's a good question. | ||
| Don, hang on just one second while I ID the station here. | ||
| Don Berliner is my guest. | ||
| This is Area 2000. | ||
| From Jackie Gonz Pleasant downtown. | ||
| This is KDWN, Las Vegas. | ||
| Sunday night and Area 2000. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| My guest is Don Berliner from Alexandria, Virginia. | ||
| He is an aviation science writer. | ||
| The subject this morning is UFOs. | ||
| Back to Don Berliner. | ||
| Don, are you still there? | ||
| I am. | ||
| Good. | ||
| What about crop circles, Don? | ||
| Linda Howe and others are looking into both crop circles and animal mutilations. | ||
| Does all of this in your mind figure into the rest of the phenomenon? | ||
| I don't see any connection yet between crop circles and UFOs. | ||
| Well, there are frequent sightings of UFOs in the area of crop circles. | ||
| But not very good sightings and pretty vague reports, actually. | ||
| And, of course, there are sightings, lots of places where they don't have crop circles. | ||
| But as I say, I don't see a connection. | ||
| There could be coincidence. | ||
| However, I consider the crop formations, since they are much more than circles, to be an independent mystery at this stage. | ||
| Absolutely fascinating. | ||
| Certainly not all hoaxes. | ||
| Right. | ||
| But what's going on is anybody's guess. | ||
| If it's a form of communication, it's a pretty terrible one because nothing's been communicated. | ||
| But it's very, very intriguing. | ||
| All right, what about the animal mutilations? | ||
| They seem to kind of go together, and they are very specific, Don. | ||
| There are cuts made with high heat instruments. | ||
| Very precise stuff. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Organs removed. | |
| Incredible things. | ||
| We can see no other explanation. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, Lindo's up top on that. | |
| I'm not. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I don't seem much of a fan of work. | |
| But Gwenber has been. | ||
| There are sightings in the same general area, but not very good sightings and not sightings that have produced much information. | ||
| And so until there's better evidence, I can't say that there is a connection. | ||
| But again, it's a fascinating mystery unto itself. | ||
| It is, indeed. | ||
| Line three, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good evening. | |
| You know, I don't know any aliens, but since the 60s, I've seen an awful lot of strange people act in strange ways that I would prefer to believe that they're aliens and that the human race has degenerated to that point. | ||
| And I think you're reaching. | ||
| I think we are degenerating, but I don't know that I'd blame it on the aliens. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But you asked a question before about the research and the discovery of semiconductors. | |
| Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That was done through hard research. | |
| They researched many materials before they came upon the crystal, silica crystal, which has a particular atomic structure which has four holes in it, positives and negatives. | ||
| All right, well, you're suggesting then that the leap to semiconductor technology was logical and well researched. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It was come about exactly like Edison came about through much experimentation. | |
| As to transistors, the first I know of transistors was in 1947 when my cousin, who never finished high school, as a matter of fact, he never attended high school, but he's some sort of an electrical genius, and he built a radio that worked underground in the subway in New York, and he used transistors, which came from Japan at the time. | ||
| All right, do you have a question for Mr. Perliner? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, I just really wanted to pull you in on that semiconductor information. | |
| All right, thank you. | ||
| I appreciate it, and that does help. | ||
| I guess maybe it was a logical progression. | ||
| Well, there is considerable reason to suspect the origins of the transistor. | ||
| Why, Don? | ||
| Give us a few of those inputs. | ||
| Some off-the-record comments by people in the intelligence community, for instance. | ||
| Oh. | ||
| Who say that's one of the things that came out of a crash? | ||
| You can't go into court with information like that, obviously, but it keeps you investigating. | ||
| That brings up another question, Don. | ||
| If the government is keeping all of this secret, then surely a lot of government intelligence people don't know about this because other guests that I've had on the program say they give lectures, and inevitably some people from the government, even the CIA, will show up for the lectures as interested as anybody else. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Well, highly classified stuff is handled on a need-to-know basis. | ||
| There's something like 700,000 people in this country cleared for top secret. | ||
| You don't tell every one of them everything. | ||
| When you're dealing with very sensitive stuff, you limit it to people who need the information in order to do their jobs. | ||
| It's what's called compartmented information. | ||
| And so just because some CIA People or some Air Force intelligence people are not in on this doesn't mean that it's not there. | ||
| And even if they are in on it, they wouldn't be able to say so. | ||
| Right, but presumably they wouldn't attend a lecture of that sort because they would already know the real stuff. | ||
| Well, maybe they want to find out what the private community has learned recently. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| That is true. | ||
| Good evening on the first-time caller line. | ||
| You're on the air in Las Vegas with Don Berliner. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good evening, Art. | |
| Good evening, Don. | ||
| Hi, where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm right here in Las Vegas. | |
| All right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I have a series of two questions here. | |
| My first question has two parts. | ||
| And in contact with aliens, whether it be through direct contact in a civilized or peaceful manner, could they possibly be considered our enemies? | ||
| And the second part of that question, in contact with aliens in a traumatic or frightening experience, such as an abduction or a possible biological testing, could they be considered our enemies? | ||
| And the second question, do all supposed aliens in all documented cases or reported cases for that matter, look like the traditional big head, big eyes, human-like body? | ||
| Or are there other types that are out there? | ||
| All right. | ||
| Those are a couple of good questions. | ||
| On the matter of their being friends or enemies, they seem to control contact or meetings or communication. | ||
| And the feeling that subductees come away with is that they're neither friends nor enemies. | ||
| They treat humans like laboratory animals. | ||
| They have no apparent feeling toward them one way or the other. | ||
| They're using them for something and sending them back where they came from. | ||
| So I don't know that you could call them friends or enemies. | ||
| As far as the types, the most common type is the little big-headed gray fellas. | ||
| But there are other types described frequently. | ||
| Some that look pretty much like humans. | ||
| Some that are kind of halfway between the human types and the little gray guys. | ||
| And occasionally something else, some really weird ones. | ||
| So what this means, we don't know. | ||
| They could all come from the same place. | ||
| They could come from different places. | ||
| They could all actually be the same. | ||
| But the witnesses, who are certainly not clear of mind when all this is going on, could just get odd impressions. | ||
| We're dealing with fuzzy information, unfortunately. | ||
| Okay, let's see where to here, I guess. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| Where are you calling from, Bill? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mount Shasta. | |
| Mount Shasta. | ||
|
unidentified
|
California? | |
| Yes. | ||
| It's a mighty high place. | ||
| It's not as grand as that face on Mars. | ||
| What could you say about that, sir? | ||
| All right. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| The face on Mars, Mr. Berliner, a lot of talk about that. | ||
| The NASA space probe, as you know, lost. | ||
| A lot of people suspicious. | ||
| What do you have to say? | ||
| Well, the pictures that were sent back years ago are certainly interesting. | ||
| Not to NASA, though. | ||
| They seem to want to try to avoid investigating it further. | ||
| Well, I think they're afraid of being laughed at, just like most UFO witnesses and most abductees. | ||
| They're afraid of negative public reaction. | ||
| And, of course, we don't really know what's going on in closed-door meetings at NASA. | ||
| But I say the initial photographs were very intriguing. | ||
| It's quite unfortunate that the Mars Observer quit working. | ||
| Unfortunate, so then you do attribute it to a technical malfunction? | ||
| I had no reason not to, and certainly this sort of thing has happened before. | ||
| In fact, it's becoming frighteningly common right now. | ||
| I don't know whether NASA is making a plea for more funding or they're showing the effects of less funding than perhaps they should have gotten. | ||
| But until I have some reason to think that there's some monkey business going on, I'm not going to jump to that conclusion. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Wildcard Line 3, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| Yes, sir. | ||
|
unidentified
|
How are you doing? | |
| Fine. | ||
| Where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Here in Las Vegas. | |
| All right, go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I had two questions. | |
| In the world, there's only two places, or actually two cultures, that created pyramids, the Egyptians and the Aztec Indians out of Mexico. | ||
| How about Steve Wynn? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, Steve Wynn, now. | |
| Or rather, the Luxor guy. | ||
| Yeah, the Luxor guy, right? | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, my question would be, supposedly, it's been reported that inside the pyramids, especially in Egypt, that there are paintings on the walls, or many paintings on the walls, of alien spacecraft, little guys coming out and supposedly communicating with the Egyptians. | |
| And my question, I guess, would be, at the time, the Egyptians were supposedly the most technologically advanced culture on the Earth at that time. | ||
| And I guess I kind of wonder, did that possibly, if that happened, play a part in our traditional technology that we have today? | ||
| All right. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| The ancient astronauts, I guess. | ||
| Well, again, some very interesting information, some questions that need to be answered. | ||
| But I think there's been far too great a tendency to jump to conclusions. | ||
| The works of Erich von Doniken exposed a lot of information, but unfortunately were analyzed by the author in a highly unscientific way. | ||
| And so the questions remain. | ||
| I don't know anything about paintings inside the pyramids of Egypt. | ||
| That's something new to me. | ||
| But There are ancient wall paintings and caves and that sort of thing that can be interpreted as spacecraft and aliens and whatnot. | ||
| We have in this area, Don, an area called the Valley of Fire, which I've been to. | ||
| And there are some drawings on the side of some rock canyon areas there that really do look like, I mean, we're talking about stick people here with what appear to be helmets and all the rest of it. | ||
| And if you were to press to say what they were, it's a man in a helmet. | ||
| Oh, yeah, there are a lot of things like that that look very much like they could have been ancient man's interpretation of some strange things he'd seen. | ||
| But how do you check it out? | ||
| That's the problem. | ||
| It sure is. | ||
| No way to get additional information. | ||
| And there is insufficient information contained in these paintings. | ||
| And so we're stuck until somebody comes up with something new. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Line three, you're on the air in Las Vegas with Don Billiner. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good evening. | |
| Hi, I'm in Las Vegas. | ||
| Yes, sir. | ||
|
unidentified
|
In Revelation, it says that whenever the false prophet and the Antichrist get together, that they cause fire to flame down from heaven. | |
| And by this means they'll deceive many. | ||
| That kind of tells me that they're going to have the ability to maybe have laser beams burn up part of a city or something at will. | ||
| But I'm looking for deception. | ||
| And it's not going to interfere with my faith no matter what they do. | ||
| And this is one of your opinion on that. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| I won't get into religious matters. | ||
| They're too sticky. | ||
| And so people are welcome to interpret religious writings as they wish. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Don, would it be your view? | |
| A lot of people suggest that the aliens, in effect, are our creators. | ||
| Would you lean toward that view? | ||
| No, it's certainly a possibility. | ||
| But again, where's the evidence of it? | ||
| They don't look all that much like us. | ||
| And there are general similarities, yeah. | ||
| Well, a body, a body. | ||
| Two arms, two legs, a head on top. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| But there are some major differences, certainly. | ||
| And so it's an intriguing possibility. | ||
| A lot of people suggest the aliens are here for some sort of genetic renewal or experiment or something that we can, in effect, do something for them or have something they need. | ||
| Well, certainly the stories we get from abductees point to great interest on the part of the aliens in the human reproductive process. | ||
| But interpreting this is pretty tough. | ||
| We don't know why they're doing it. | ||
| We don't know if the reasons they give are the truth because we've seen enough evidence of them giving ridiculous explanations and obviously incorrect explanations for things. | ||
| You are to be applauded for not leaping with so many of the rest to conclusions about all this, Don. | ||
| I'd say it. | ||
| We've done that. | ||
| In my three or four years working full-time for NICAP back in the 60s, I saw an awful lot of people lose their effectiveness by jumping to conclusions and then losing sight of the difference between theory and fact. | ||
| Precisely. | ||
| Wild Card Line 3, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, this is Leota from Tempe, Arizona. | |
| Tempe, Arizona. | ||
| Hi there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi. | |
| This is mainly sort of a confirmation for the sighting that you saw. | ||
| A group called the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrials went down to Mexico the first part of February this year. | ||
| And they were out in the desert at about 11.45. | ||
| They saw this light. | ||
| They signaled it. | ||
| And it came closer. | ||
| And it was your triangle. | ||
| Trying my triangle. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh-huh. | |
| Don, it's a strange thing. | ||
| I had never heard, to me, they were always saucers or oblong or cigar-shaped. | ||
| And I'd never heard of a triangle. | ||
| And then I saw a triangle, and I've received nothing but reports of triangle sightings ever since. | ||
| It's incredible. | ||
| Well, a lot of the UFOs seen in Russia a couple of years ago and chased by Soviet, then Soviet Air Force fighters were described as triangular. | ||
| So it's not that rare, but over the years they haven't been common. | ||
| It's like buying a new car and then seeing others just like it everywhere. | ||
| Everybody bought the same thing. | ||
| Same phenomenon, yes. | ||
| Anything else, ma'am? | ||
| Ma'am, anything else? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, I just wanted you to know you're not alone. | |
| This thing was 300 feet across. | ||
| Oh, boy. | ||
| And when it turned, this straight part, you know, the triangle part, there was a bank of lights that went on. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Thanks for the report. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Bye-bye. | |
| Right. | ||
| Bye-bye. | ||
| There's another report. | ||
| They're constant, Don. | ||
| Reports just keep coming. | ||
| And as you have suggested, the number of reports, even if you just miss some percentage of them, is very strong evidence when taken in total. | ||
| Especially when you face up to the fact that the great majority of sightings are never reported. | ||
| We're just getting a few percent of the total. | ||
| I would imagine that percent is slowly rising as acceptance of it all seems greater, wouldn't you imagine? | ||
| I don't know that acceptance is any greater. | ||
| Gallup polls over the years have shown roughly about the same percentage of acceptance. | ||
| But I think people are simply afraid of ridicule. | ||
| And whether there is ridicule there or not doesn't matter. | ||
| If they're afraid of it, that's what counts. | ||
| And now, with no well-known private organizations in the field and no admitted government interest, people don't know how to report sightings. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| All right, Don, let's keep moving. | ||
| A lot of people want to talk to you. | ||
| Good evening on the first time caller line. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Good evening, Don and Art. | |
| Hi, you're hard to hear, sir, so you have to. | ||
| I said, good evening, Don and Art. | ||
| Yes, good evening. | ||
| You're a little hard to hear, but go ahead. | ||
| Okay, well, my question is, what do you believe is the method of attaching equipment or joining material on these ships, since there are no nuts or both? | ||
| That's one question. | ||
| It's a good one, too. | ||
| And the other one is, what does the government do when they have a new design of an aircraft, the first thing they do along with it? | ||
| You should know that. | ||
| You're an aircraft man. | ||
| And if you can't answer that, I'll tell you what it is. | ||
| Okay, as far as joining parts together, I have no idea. | ||
| The descriptions I've gotten from people who say they handled wreckage suggest that it would be very difficult for us to try to make anything out of that kind of material. | ||
| No way to drill holes in it, to put rivets through it. | ||
| Maybe there's some way to chemically bond it. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| But I've never heard anything about how parts were joined together. | ||
| John, I don't want to hold any other college up, but I'll give you a hint. | ||
|
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Yeah, how about optically? | |
| I don't know how that would work. | ||
|
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It worked. | |
| Good. | ||
|
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The other thing is, the other question I had is on when the government builds a New York craft, what happens? | |
| It builds a central alongside of it, right? | ||
| Frequently. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| No, most of the time when they build a New York craft. | ||
| You are there in those. | ||
| Yeah, you invest the data, click the line, click the line at, and invest the data, and there's a similar attention. | ||
| And, and, you know, that's what, that's what, that's what, that's what. | ||
| Yeah, thank you for my favorite. | ||
| Dan, is that how you classify yourself, by the way? | ||
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Are you an investigator? | |
| Not primarily. | ||
| I'm a writer and reporter. | ||
| I've done some investigating, but I say in the case of the book, Stan Friedman did the great bulk of the investigating. | ||
| And, well, I would not describe myself that way. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Let's see. | ||
| Line three. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
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Yes, good evening, Arch. | |
| Hello. | ||
|
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Good evening. | |
| I just have two questions, and it's hard to answer it. | ||
| First of all, I think, just very briefly, I think this is from Vegas, Las Vegas, obviously, North Las Vegas. | ||
| But anyway, I think that the UFOs are real, and I think we have been genetically sort of inbred, breaded, maybe thousands of years ago, and I don't think that we would be so speeded up in our technology. | ||
| That's my thoughts today. | ||
| But I want to ask two questions, and I'll let you answer that on the air. | ||
| One, we haven't gone back to the moon. | ||
| They tell us it's too expensive. | ||
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Now, I've asked this before, but I don't know whether we have a big rock out there. | |
| And I was wondering, number one, are there some cases maybe or some type of alien activity on the moon? | ||
| And number two, for years people who have seen a UFO, supposedly, they have a blackout, you know, naturally, like they see a light and then they don't remember an hour or two. | ||
| They're put under hypnosis, policemen, people that don't have maybe emotional instability, and then they have seen definitely something being examined, you know, and then an ugly-looking humanoid type of people, and maybe it's shock, but there's so much similarities. | ||
| I'd like to know what you think of that and the moon question, and let's keep up space research. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| All right, thank you for the call. | ||
| Okay, as far as the moon is concerned, NASA is having enough trouble getting money for its existing programs. | ||
| They have plans to go back to the moon. | ||
| They have plans for permanent installations on the moon to do research. | ||
| But the big problem is the cost right now. | ||
| And so Congress is not in the mood for funding elaborate scientific efforts. | ||
| They killed the superconducting super collider the other day. | ||
| And so I don't think there's anything more than economic problems to blame there. | ||
| As far as other bases on the moon, I am not aware of any evidence of this. | ||
| The second question was what? | ||
| I didn't write it down. | ||
| Let's see, I guess it was just a... | ||
| I may have missed the last question myself, Don. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| Both getting older. | ||
| Yeah, we're getting old. | ||
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That's for sure. | |
| Good evening. | ||
| On the first time, call our line. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
|
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I have two quick questions, and I'll listen on the radio. | |
| All right. | ||
| Are you the author of the Bermuda Triangle book? | ||
| I am not. | ||
|
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Tipper for Hunter, I guess? | |
| No, no, no. | ||
| That's Berlin. | ||
|
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Oh, I'm sorry. | |
| Okay, I screwed that one up altogether. | ||
| Okay, second question. | ||
| We're all getting old. | ||
|
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I'm sorry. | |
| Earlier, Al Buelick was mentioned, and I wondered if you had done any research or writing about the Philadelphia experiment. | ||
| I just understood that you said you're not really a researcher, but I wondered what you knew about that. | ||
| I've never looked into it because I have enough to do just keeping track of all this UFO stuff. | ||
|
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Okay, well, I'm sorry about that other question. | |
| No problem. | ||
| Thank you very much for the call. | ||
| Line one, you're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| Hi, Eric. | ||
|
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How are you doing? | |
| Fine. | ||
|
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It's been a question that I've been saving for you, and now I'm going to let it loose. | |
| We live very close to Groom Lake, and it's where you live, it's close to the... | ||
| If you look out tonight, when you go after your show, look out, and there's the ring around the moon, and those clouds are up pretty high. | ||
| And there's a beam of light from the Luxor. | ||
| And also, you must also think That the best way to hide something is in plain sight. | ||
| I have very been mulling this over: that the light from that Luxor, that whatever candle power it is, I know it's enormous. | ||
| A signal, sir? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| What's the Luxor? | ||
| The Luxor is probably the largest pyramid outside of Egypt, or maybe the largest period, that's just been built here in Las Vegas. | ||
| It is a new hotel casino. | ||
| It's pretty odd, Don. | ||
| I'll tell you, it's a light that comes right out of the very top of it, Don, a brilliant light that goes right up to the clouds. | ||
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Can you see that in Perump, Art? | |
| Well, barely. | ||
| Yes, you can see it, depending on the conditions. | ||
|
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Right. | |
| So you think they're hiding something in plain sight? | ||
|
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I think so. | |
| All right. | ||
| Well, Don can obviously not have a comment on that. | ||
|
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What do you think, Art? | |
| Mine is, who the hell knows? | ||
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You're just like me, but come on. | |
| Who knows? | ||
| That's it. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| So that echoes your comments, Don. | ||
| Who knows about these things? | ||
| We're very short on time. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Don Berliner in Las Vegas. | ||
| Where are you calling from, please? | ||
| Hello there. | ||
| No, you're not. | ||
| They missed it. | ||
| Line two, you're on the air with Don Berliner. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
|
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Oh. | |
| Hello. | ||
| Oh. | ||
| Yes, you're on the air, sir. | ||
|
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I'm trying to investigate something concerning the caverns in the Grand Canyon that were written about by Smithsonian and the Phoenix Gazette. | |
| Had you ever heard of anything connected to the Egyptians with that? | ||
| All right, we're way out of time here, Don. | ||
| And way out of our territory. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| So, obviously, then no comments. | ||
| I don't know anything about it. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Don, it has been a very good interview. | ||
| And again, I enjoy your caution on all of these things, and I share it. | ||
| Is there anything you'd like to tell everybody out there? | ||
| Do you have any cons, for example, do you want to be contacted by anybody for any reason? | ||
| Well, if people want to contact the friends to you, if they're interested in what we're up to and like to participate in any way, they're welcome to write to us at post office shop 277, Mount Rainier, Maryland. | ||
| That's R-A-I-N-I-E-R, Maryland, 20712. | ||
| And we'll send you information and go from there. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Lots of people left on the lines, but not lots of time. | ||
| So, Don, I'm going to simply say thank you. | ||
| Thank you very much for the interview. | ||
| And I'm not going to have a chance to get your fax number off the air here. | ||
| Somebody else steps right in, but I will contact you, Don, and get your fax number. | ||
| I'd be glad to send you this Associated Press story. | ||
| Okay, if it doesn't run in tomorrow's Washington Post. | ||
| It may, because I just heard it on the Associated Press News at 9 o'clock. | ||
| So, my guess is it's going to run all over the place. | ||
| All right, so if you need it, let me know. | ||
| I'll give you a call. | ||
| Don Berliner, thank you. | ||
| Thank you, Archie. | ||
| There he is, Don Berliner, aviation science writer, and yet another guest from the Bigelow Foundation and Area 2000. | ||
|
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Good evening. | |
| The preceding program was sponsored by the Big Love Foundation. | ||
|
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Plaza, this is KDWN, Las Vegas. |
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