Art Bell

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Oct. 17, 1993 - Art Bell

01:48:21

Area 2000 with Art Bell - Bud Hopkins Abductions

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18:14

budd hopkins

44:08

daniel drasin

08:30

george knapp

09:25

linda moulton howe

06:31

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		The following program is made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell, and it is going to be a very serious program this morning.
		It is, of course, every week, but this week, in addition to George, who is back, George Knapp, our roving journalist, and Linda Howe, who's got a special guest herself, we'll be having Bud Hopkins as our guest.
		And most of you should know Bud, Missing Time, Intruders, two bestseller list books to his credit, and a whole lot more.
		So, without any further wait, let's get started, shall we?
		To, I guess first, George Knapp, who's back after being on an airplane last week, lost in airspace someplace or another.
		Good evening, George.
unidentified		Welcome.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Art, and good evening, listeners.
		A lot of stuff to cover tonight.
		First of all, my apologies for not being with you last week, but I was winging my way back from an important UFO conference held in Connecticut at the time.
		I get a chance to attend about a dozen of these events each year, and at these things, you often hear speculation or predictions about big events.
		You know, something major is about to happen, that sort of thing.
		For the most part, as you know, our touch predictions fall flat.
		No alien landings, no government announcements, no end of the world kind of thing.
		But at this one, and in others I've attended recently, I've heard more and more pessimism from researchers whom I respect than ever before.
		I mean, solid, well-connected people are, quite frankly, scared, visibly, physically upset by something that they feel is about to happen.
		A few of these researchers have been told things but are unwilling to talk about it even in private conversations.
		Among those who work on this topic full-time, I think the feeling is almost universal that we're all in for some sort of a major jolt.
		And it's more than just kind of an end-of-the-millennium retrospection.
		It's a real and palpable perception based on informed sources in some cases, gut instinct, and the fact that the people I'm talking about work with this material every day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, when?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good question, you know, because we've all heard these sort of predictions before, and it doesn't seem like they ever come true.
		But I've never felt it quite like this, as I said, almost universal among the people whom I greatly respect.
		And I think Linda and Bud would certainly have probably better insight on that than I. It could be soon, and I'll tell you about that in just a second.
		I know Linda has heard the same sort of rumblings and has similar perceptions, and I'd really like to hear her thoughts on whether she's getting this same sort of feedback.
		And Bud absolutely has the same sort of thing, possibly from the abductees themselves.
		What could the big event be?
		I think much of the current attention that I heard back there is focused on an astronomical event slated for next July.
		Several asteroid chunks, you've heard this, Art, are going to slam into the planet Jupiter.
		Now, Jupiter is a big planet.
		That's an understatement.
		But these are also major league asteroids, and they're sort of almost in synchronicity.
		Even mainstream scientists say this is going to be a spectacular celestial event.
		Could it possibly affect Earth considering the vast distances between them and us?
		That would seem remote, but a lot of people are wondering if something is afoot.
		One of those is Richard Hoagland, known for his groundbreaking work about the so-called face on Mars.
		I had some lengthy conversations with Hoagland at this Connecticut conference.
		He is imbued with this same sense of foreboding about the future, especially as it relates to this pending Jupiter event.
		Now, Hoagland has extensive sources, as you know, within NASA.
		He isn't at all reluctant, though, in saying that something truly nasty is in the works.
		We'll see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but it is all foreboding.
		In other words, this could not be a good event.
		Everybody's concerned.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's pretty much.
		I mean, Colin Andrews, the Crop Circle researcher who has probably the most optimistic view on the whole alien-human interaction, even he feels that something big is coming.
		Saying it's universal, it's unanimous.
		I mean, I don't know any of these major researchers who don't feel the same thing that they're getting from different sources.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've got several major researchers this morning on the program, so we'll ask.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Good, I hope you do.
		Of more immediate interest is Richard Hoagland's information about this ill-fated Mars observer.
		Now, he's the guy that did the groundbreaking work on this.
		He has all kinds of sources within NASA, and he is convinced the loss of this craft was not accidental, which a lot of us suspect, that there was some sort of a hidden purpose behind the mission, which is certainly possible, and that the observer, he says, is going to spring back to life after the first of the year.
		That's his prediction.
		It's a long, complicated explanation about why it's going to happen, but if it does, you'll know where you heard it from Hoagland.
		And I understand Linda has a guest who may be able to shed light on this as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		On the subject of Mars and predictions, remember the predictions by these former government psychics.
		We talked about them a couple times on the program about this big event that was supposed to happen in August in New Mexico.
		Well, although nothing of the sort materialized, the folks who made this prediction now say the Mars Observer incident was directly related to their predicted event and that the New Mexico part of the story has been delayed by five or six weeks.
		The chief remote viewer who used to work for the military, a guy named Ed James, predicts that a very high authority whom he says is higher than President Clinton, not a whole lot of those going around, will make an announcement of some sort in the near future.
		Again, listener caution is advised when evaluating the credibility of predictions like this, but we will certainly keep you posted.
		The two-month-long Las Vegas Library UFO lecture series concluded last night with a talk from researcher Bill Moore, who has done a lot of good work on Roswell and MJ-12.
		We don't have the final crowd counts, but the library folks are elated with the public response to the series.
		Nearly every event drew a full house, and the district has already decided to do it again next year.
		I had two chances this week to address some of these library audiences, and for the most part, the questions were intelligent.
		The discussion was healthy.
		It's apparent that people are really hungry for credible information on this topic, and I think your show, Art, is evidence of that.
		I want to give congratulations to the library people for having the courage to put on a program like this, because you know how much skepticism there is in the local media, and luckily they didn't get bashed too badly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, George, I wonder if the general public, and maybe we'll find out this morning, has the same building sense of something imminent.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I sure feel that.
		You know, traveling around the country and doing stories and going to conferences, I really do feel it.
		And some of it you have to chalk up to general paranoia.
		And, you know, we've heard these predictions, as I mentioned, over and over again, but there's a building sense that I try to resist it as a journalist.
		You don't want to get into that sort of a framework, but you hear it again and again and again, and it sort of plays with your mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think you have that same feeling, or do you think you're being infected by those who say they have it?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I think the latter is the idea, is that I don't have that sense, but I'm getting it after hearing it again and again from people whom I greatly respect.
		A few weeks ago, we hinted on this program that we might have some definitive evidence concerning the Bob Lazar Area 51 alien technology story.
		Well, this week that evidence was made public for the first time during this library lecture, and this will mark the first time it's been broadcast anywhere.
		In a nutshell, this is it, Art.
		A few months ago, a company in California purchased some photos taken by a Soviet satellite in the summer of 1988.
		This is just a little bit before Bob Lazar started working, allegedly started working at S-4 Papus.
		Photos in question were targeted at Groom and Papua Lakes here in Nevada.
		Bob Lazar said he saw flying saucers, alien technology, stored and tested at Papu's Lake.
		A story which no one will confirm and which, as you know, a lot of people refuse to believe.
		Well, this photo, as amazing as it might sound, apparently caught a large, metallic, disc-shaped craft flying above Papua Lake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I've seen this thing.
		Some former NASA industry specialists have seen it.
		They have analyzed it.
		It is a big, fat, flying saucer on film above the area where Lazar said they were being flown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		That really does earn a wow.
		Do you have a copy of it, George?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do?
unidentified		And it'll blow you away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to see that, George.
		I'd be glad to show it to you.
		I would really like to see that.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Some additional blow-ups are being processed, which allegedly, and I say that only because I haven't seen this part of it myself, they show roads which lead into the hills that are adjacent to Papoose, where Bob said the hangars were, which stored the...
		Oh, none at all.
		None at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, is there any chance you can get this published in the local paper or better?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't own the photos.
		I've been shown them.
		I've been allowed to talk to it, but I don't own them.
		I think there are some corporate interests.
		As you know, Art, there's a movie company that wants to do some stuff on Bob, and they're the ones that forked over the money because this is an expensive proposition to come up with the photos and to get them analyzed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's really serious.
		When you said evidence, you weren't kidding.
		You say you've had this analyzed?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have had this analyzed by some former NASA people, and they are as mystified as anyone.
		They say what it appears to be is a flying saucer.
		Additional blow-ups, as I said, are being processed, and they allegedly show roads which lead into these hills adjacent to Papua and buses parked outside the area where Bob said he worked.
		Now, the reason this is really important is I have two congressional sources who've been up to that area and who have flown over Papua in the last couple of months, specifically looking for evidence of any kind of programs or hangars or anything else.
		There's nothing there.
		There is absolutely nothing there right now.
		And they've been told that there was nothing there in the past.
		Well, these photos, I think, will clearly demonstrate that there was something there before and that there has been some sort of a cover-up.
		And I hope someone in Congress gets mad at it because someone clearly is lying.
		I have a couple of other items, but I think it's probably more important to get onto your guest tonight because concerning him, he was also at this Connecticut event that I attended last week.
		And I tell you, this is a guy you can't get enough of.
		I've heard Bud probably 10 times.
		I've interviewed him.
		We've had numerous private conversations.
		I think he is probably the single most important figure in ufology today, a really good and honest man.
		I can't wait to hear it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's been wonderful, George, and somehow or another, I would very much like to get to see those.
		Are you going to get copies made yourself?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have the permission to do that.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I certainly would have permission to show them to you, Art, because I think it's important for you to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I will contact you.
		Thank you, George.
		That's George Knapp, our roving journalist, and this morning he had some pretty serious news.
		And once again, what he just revealed was that there are Soviet photos, and this is big news, folks, Soviet photos taken of the Groom Lake, Papua Lake area, precisely where Bob Lazar said there were discs, purporting to show that there is, in fact, a disc in the photo.
		And the buses and the roads leading in and out and the facility itself that is not there now.
		That would be a very, very serious piece of evidence.
		George Knapp.
		Now, to Denver, Colorado, or Boulder, Colorado, I guess, more accurately, and Linda Howe this evening, and yet another glimpse into yet another reality, and her guest this morning, Dan Drayson.
		So let's go to Boulder, Colorado, and say good evening, folks.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I think one of the unusual features about tonight is that neither you nor George nor I had a chance to talk today about what we were going to discuss tonight.
		And yet, earlier this afternoon, I was in a place where some of the astronomers now meeting at the University of Colorado On a planetary conference, were, and I talked with two of them, one from Poland and one from France, and the issue, one of the issues, was this event next summer in which a comet-like body followed by asteroids is supposed to plunge into Jupiter.
		And I asked them, as astronomers, what they are expecting the consequence of this event to be, and their unanimous response was, well, there will be nothing in the solar system because Jupiter is so huge, and they used the analogy that it would be like throwing something into a huge feather pillow, as they said, and it will absorb whatever this is that's coming.
		That is the astronomer point of view today in Boulder at this large planetary conference.
		Whether or not there is any other information about this event next summer, I don't know.
		But obviously, we are coming up against a phenomenon that is real.
		It is physical.
		It was reported in science this week.
		It's been reported in various national news media.
		So between now and the middle of next summer, we can at least begin to gain more information about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How big?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any idea how large these objects are?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		No, the only description that I have heard is a comet-like body that is preceding a series of 17 or 19 asteroid-like, which would be rocky bodies.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Each one would be directed into the gaseous planet of Jupiter.
unidentified		Whether anything like this has happened before it, I don't know.
		Maybe no one knows for sure.
		But at least in terms of the scientists meeting here today, they never read.
		They are interested.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They were trying to monitor what happened.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They had, from just the conversation this afternoon, though, they're not expecting there to be any impact on the Earth, and they said that with some strength.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George talked about a strong sense of foreboding that seems either to be connected to that or separate from it.
		But he's getting it, he said, from just about everybody.
		Are you getting that same sense, Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I would not say foreboding as much as a sense from some of the abductees I know and other research colleagues.
		I think everybody has a sense that something major is going to happen in the next possible year.
		I don't know the details.
		I know that some of the abductees are talking about having a sense of something major happening, but whether or not it is going to be of some kind of a global catastrophic impact nature, which the Hoagland hypothesis would present,
		or it means that there may possibly be the beginning of the opening of this very difficult story, that we are not alone in the universe, that there are other intelligences, and we may be finally on the brink of encountering some of these intelligences in another way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, before we get to your guest, and I do want to ask you about what George said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you hear what he said about the Soviet photos of Papua Lake and the disc that he's got on, I guess, in a photograph?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And about the only thing one can say anymore is that with the kind of virtual reality that is capable on computers these days, it is so hard to know what the source of photographs are.
		People, unfortunately, can concoct many things and pass them off for money or fame or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Say that they are X, Y, or Z. The issue here, and George may have that, is that there needs to be some kind of substantial proof about what the source of the photograph is, how legitimate it is.
		And right now, until there's more information forthcoming, it sounds like this is a very sensational and dramatic looking photograph.
		And I hope that we will learn more about its source in the details.
		And this whole issue of other intelligences involved with our planet brings me to the subject that a friend of mine in Boulder has been involved with the research of the unusual Martian features for the last decade.
		He has worked with Richard Hoagland, the author and investigator of many of the anomalies on Mars, including that enormous mile-long, 1,500-foot high-face feature.
		And he was the editor of a book that has been out for a couple of years, Beautiful, called The Martian Enigmas by Mark Carlato, who specializes in digital imaging and has been doing a lot of the photograph work on the NASA frames.
		And for people who may not be aware, just very briefly, in the end of the 70s we had an orbiter that took two frames that showed a very unusual, what people more conservatively call an unusual Martian feature.
		And it looks like an enormous face, and there were other odd features around it.
		Richard Hoagland and others have speculated that this is the archaeological vestiges of what was once upon a time a civilization on Mars.
		With me is Dan Drayson, who has edited this book with Mark Carloto, has worked with Richard Hoagland, and has been involved with this whole issue.
		Is there any hard evidence to support the speculation that somebody somewhere is still receiving secret imaging from the Mars orbiter, or is it really dead in space, either orbiting completely turned off around Mars, or has it gone sailing off into space?
		And I'd like to introduce Dan Drayson, and we'll start off with the whole issue of is there any evidence to support the speculation that there are secret signals coming from the Mars Observer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dan, good evening.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, how do you do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just fine.
		Well, tell us what you can about the Explorer.
		We're all curious about it.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Well, nobody that I know of has any definitive evidence, at least none that they're willing to make public at this point in time.
		But the circumstantial evidence is quite intriguing, and the timing is quite intriguing.
		I don't know if you're familiar with Stan McDaniel, professor at Sonoma State University in California, who recently released a paper known now as the McDaniel Report, which has made quite a few waves both within NASA and around the whole Mars investigation.
		McDaniel's report essentially takes NASA to task very firmly for the false statements they've made to the public and to Congress over the past 15 or so years with regard to the Martian investigation.
		It also dissects the game plan for Mars Observer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, it tries to lay out a pattern of lies or deception over many years, not just with regard to this latest thing, but over many years.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Essentially, in a nutshell, NASA has claimed over the years to have photographs which disconfirm the existence of the Martian face and these other objects.
		They have claimed time and time again, and they have said this both publicly and in private correspondence with members of the public and members of Congress, they have claimed that this photograph exists, although they have never named this photograph, that each of the Viking photographs were numbered.
		They've never produced this photograph that they've claimed to have for 15 years, and recently have as good as admitted that it doesn't exist.
		Further, NASA have also claimed over the years to have exhaustively studied these objects and that the results of these exhaustive investigations have been that the top experts in the field consider these things to be nothing more than illusions and tricks of light and shadow.
		Well, as it turns out, there were no such investigations.
		The verdict that these were illusions were basically the personal opinions of a very few NASA geologists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a little puzzling.
		On the one hand, they're saying they don't exist.
		On the other hand, they're saying we investigated them and they're nothing.
		So there's something there.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course there's something.
		It's been a bit of a shellgame, actually.
		And one of my personal interests is in the whole psychology of belief, disbelief, propaganda, debunkery, and so forth.
		And I found this entire case to be a gold mine, sort of a textbook case of, in a way, people living in different worlds.
		You've got the independent investigation team, Dick Hoagland, and going way back to 1979, Vince DiPietro, Greg Molinar, then Mark Carlotto, Errol Torre, and myself, and several others.
		We have watched this thing develop from what was essentially a subjective impression of a face way back in the 70s when these photos first came in into quite a detailed and elaborate series of analyses of these pictures.
		Mathematical, fractal, cultural, these photographs.
		And there's more than two, by the way.
		There's probably a half dozen in total that are in question here.
		And this is an investigation which NASA basically does not acknowledge ever took place.
		The amount of energy expended in propaganda in place of science has been enormous here.
		Probably the best account of the history of this whole affair is in this document known as the McDaniel Report.
		One of the interesting things about the history of this report is that NASA received a copy of it probably a day and a half before the apparent loss of Mars Observer.
		And this particular edition of the report contained a bit of an expose on NASA's strategy.
		You see, Mars Observer was supposed to have gone into orbit, undergone its proper orbital adjustments and technical checkouts, and then start its photography sometime in November or December of this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was the Explorer, wasn't it?
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Mars Observer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That's what ART went out on August 21st and lost signal and studying all this speculation about whether or not the signal was really lost or if it is out in space somewhere.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Nice.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		What the McDaniel report pointed out was that NASA had recently published a revised edition of their protocols, which provided an unexplained week and a half to two weeks of time during which Mars Observer could have photographed these areas on Mars, sent back the photos, and then perhaps political decisions could have been made about what to do about them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're suggesting, then, that they got some early pictures before the orbital maneuvers, they found something shocking, and did something to the observer?
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		We're suggesting that they already know what's there, and that Mars Observed would have allowed them to get a much, much closer look than we've had the opportunity to have in the past, and that they wanted to have the first glimpse to themselves, so to speak, and then decide what to do about it.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		And this report, which made public for the first time NASA's apparent strategy, was received by NASA, I believe on the 20th and on the 21st, the spacecraft was lost, immediately after receiving its program instructions for orbital insertion.
unidentified		Now, the...
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you what my own opinion is after being involved in this study for over 10 years now.
		I think that we have, and in fact, I'm going to quote Sam McDaniel on this from the back page of his report.
		He says, whether the objects on Mars turn out to be alien artifacts or simply the most stupendous constellation of geological coincidences in history, eventually the human race must face these questions.
		When you really, really look into this material, not just superficially, but in depth, the history of the investigation lower upon layer upon layer of confirming evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so if we presume then that these are, as he suspects they might be, evidence of an alien race, then we have to imagine that NASA has concluded we would be so disturbed by that information that we'd all go crazy and wouldn't be able to handle it, and so they're keeping it secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that the probable motivation?
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Certainly a possible motivation.
		We know, for example, that in 1960, a report entitled Proposed Studies on the Implications of Peaceful Space Activities for Human Affairs was delivered to the chairman of NASA's Committee on Long-Range Studies.
		It was prepared under contract.
		And the report outlines the need to investigate the possible social consequences of any discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence and also to consider whether such a discovery should be kept from the public in order to avoid political change, possible devastating effects on scientists due to the discoveries that many of their own most cherished theories could be at risk and so forth.
		Now, this certainly does not concur with scientific method as I learned it, and as most of us understand it.
		But we also know that science and politics are very much interwoven in the real world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dan, stand by just one moment, please.
		I've got to do a quick station identification.
		We'll be right back to Linda Howe and Dan Drayson.
		You're listening to Area 2000.
unidentified		Area 2000.
		From Jackie Gonzalez downtown.
		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell.
		We're running a little late.
		Today Hopkins, we'll get to him shortly.
		I've Zach Linda Howe and Dan Drayson in Boulder, Colorado.
		The subject is the Mars Observer Mission, what might be on Mars, and back to them.
		Folks, you're back on the air once again.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		The issue here was what possibly could be the motivation for a policy of government silence and all this, and is it just to prevent public panic, or is it to keep the social, financial, and other status flow in place?
		And if that is the reason, how are we going to move on with getting on to the fact that we're not alone in the universe?
		And here's Dan.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		That's a rather large question.
		I view this whole process, I tend to take a long view of the whole process.
		I mean, we live in a world that's balanced on the edge of great change, and particularly great changes of perspective in terms of our own self-image.
		Who are we in the universe?
		Did we evolve as sort of freakish creations on this isolated rock, or are we part of a much larger network of life?
		And this has implications in terms of our history.
		We're beginning to suspect, or some of us are, that someone stole our history.
		Where's our real history?
		Why has this been kept from us?
		People like Zachariah Sitchin and others are uncovering some very provocative evidence that perhaps the general belief that we're alone in the universe was perhaps a purposeful thing, and that many human institutions down through the centuries have evolved and had as their purpose, keeping us quarantined in a sense.
		And there are various opinions and perspectives on whether this is a good or a bad thing or just what happened.
		And I find this whole field fascinating, and I find my own process of discovery and self-questioning to be really rich.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the only other question I have with reference to the observer is, if they had a pretty good idea of what was there and that they didn't want us to see it, why spend the billion dollars and launch it in the first place?
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure they had any choice.
		And I'm also not sure that the forces within NASA and other institutions are all that monolithic.
		My impression is, and this is reinforced by having been exposed to many points of view in this field, that there are varying points of view within our institutions and within government.
		And that there are those who want the truth revealed, those who do not want the truth revealed, and many people in the middle.
		And that what's going on now is a process whereby all this is being sorted out and will obviously be shaken out in the next few years because the dam is going to break sooner or later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good enough, Dan.
		It's certainly been good speaking with you.
		And Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have anything more for us this evening?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I'm eager for you to transition on to Bud, who clearly is dealing with another aspect of this whole issue of are we involved with another intelligence on this planet?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what would the motives be for the UFO abduction syndrome and all of this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then to Bud we will go and I thank both you and Dan for being with us this evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thanks, Ars.
daniel drasin ▲ ● ▼		Thank you all.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		We'll have to be next Sunday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Both of you take care.
		Dan Drayson and Linda Howell and her glimpse into another reality and now.
		Very quickly, because we're short on time already, Bud Hopkins probably is, as George advertised, I would say, the leading ufologist right now in the nation.
		UFO investigator, author of Intruders, author of Missing Time.
		And he had his own sighting back a very long time ago in 1964, and that got him started.
		And that got him started investigating.
		And then finally himself writing, he founded the Intruders Foundation, a not-for-profit organization devoted to research and public expectation concerning UFO abduction phenomena.
		He has been a guest just about everywhere, including this program previously.
		But today's show, Good Morning America, Joan Rivers, my line, Oprah, Winfrey.
		He's been everywhere.
		2020, Larry King, Janet Jones, Night Watson, Salt Mysteries.
		Penn Magazine's kind of there.
		We had to knock it on the whiskers on forever.
		And instead, I'm just going to go directly all the way to New York and Bud Hopkins.
		Bud Hopkins, good evening.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Larry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we've got a good one.
		Excellent.
		Glad to have you.
		The audience needs to know a little history.
		I was supposed to connect with you down in Texas.
		Right.
unidentified		But we got all turned around, and you went the wrong day, and then we hit the wrong time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But here you are back in New York.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You've been able to listen to quite a bit this evening.
		Any reaction to what you've heard so far?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll start first with what George was saying about the sense of foreboding that many investigators have.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And I will add what I have to say and my feelings about this.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The first point about it is that after having conducted this investigation that we did through the separate organization, a poll looking into what percentage of the American people we think have had yet or such experiences, we found a stopping number of people who seem to have had these experiences.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		At the time, we came up with a rough guess of one in every 50 Americans.
unidentified		Higher than that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, what that means, of course, is that whatever is going on in Mars right here and now on this planet, right in Nevada and Nebraska and New York City and whatnot, there are abductions taking place as we speak.
		The numbers would imply that it has to be that frequent.
		So something absolutely enormous is going on on this planet.
		And the point is, in terms of the foreboding that people feel, a sense of something about to happen, rather than there being necessarily some single solitary event, what's been happening is that more and more and more people are coming to realize that this crazy stuff is actually going on.
		People are having these experiences.
		And the episode amassing itself, so really this can't be kept under wraps for much longer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When do you think?
		I guess we're talking about an astrological event in July.
		Next July is coming next July.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wasn't talking about the astrological event, which may or may not have much of an effect on us.
		I'm talking about the very fact that the evidence, as it comes together, supporting the idea of an alien intelligence operating within our world and affecting our lives in a very profound way, abducting people from childhood on, or some kind of ongoing genetic experiment, which implies the production of some sort of hybrid life form between them and us.
		This is so incredibly widespread that it simply, the days are numbered, really, in which we're going to be able to keep this thing secret.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would you think, Bud, that it would break open if that magic moment comes and all of this builds to some kind of climax?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How would you think it might come?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it can come in many different ways.
		I'm working on a case and had been for quite some time in which a very important political figure witnessed an abduction of someone floating 12 stories up in midair with three aliens underneath a UFO right in New York City at around 3.30 in the morning back in 1989.
		Now, I can just say that if this figure, this political figure, were to come forward and state for the public record what he's seen, it would have the same effect as if, to make a rough analogy, let's say Robert McEnmire, the former Secretary of Defense, came forward and announced officially that as Secretary of Defense he did see alien bodies and alien captured craft and so forth crashed UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it somebody that big?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
		And that's all I'm going to say about his identity.
		But the point is, if this were to happen, I mean, that would just be one way in which it could be made public.
		Another way, of course, is if we had other important figures.
		You see, this is so widespread that there have to be enormous numbers of military and government scientific individuals who are operating under some kind of vowel secrecy right now.
		There have to be because you can't keep something this large, this secret for this line.
unidentified		And if a trap could occur in the circus of sure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		A trap could occur in court where information could come tumbling out if people decided to come forward with what they know.
		There have been isolated cases.
		George has been looking into the whole situation, of course, with Bob and Saw and so forth.
		But there have been many, many other people who have come forward little by little, people around the world work and so forth.
unidentified		City FL General Public Carbox officers announced that they can't live with himself any longer, and they want to announce this to the public.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That could happen, that sort of thing, any day.
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your work with the puppies, what are you getting any sense from the puppies and from stories, or is there anything you can tell us that would also...
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, this slightly humorous note, maybe we need a little humor at this point.
		But if there's any universal law operating here, it's Murphy's Law, because things seem to go wrong with alien abductions, too.
		The meaning of this, I think, has to do with the fact that there are so many these events taking place that mistakes are bound to occur.
		And there also seems to be something sort of frantic about the alien activity as if they're speeding things up.
		I get reports very often from abductees implying that this hybrid program really isn't working properly.
		It isn't doing what they, they're not totally successful with it.
		And it's as if time is limited for them or something of that sort.
		So there's a kind of frantic nature.
		But on the human part of it, for instance, I was just working with a woman who had gone to bed wearing a T-shirt and some underpants.
		And when she woke up in the morning, she was wearing the T-shirt, some memory of an event during the night having been taken out of the house and an abduction.
		She was not wearing underpants, but in fact, on the bed table next to her were some other woman's underpants, not hers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Holy mackerel.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I had the same exact thing that happened to a woman in Florida.
		I went to bed wearing, again, some kind of night shirt and underpants and woke up with out them, and there were some other woman's underwear in the house.
		A woman in Ohio went to bed wearing her nightgown and woke up with a man's green t-shirt on.
		Clothes disappear.
		One woman woke up with another woman's earrings on the table next to her.
		This sort of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, but, but, when you redress these people, and I assume that you did.
		Yes.
		How could you resist?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you find out?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, that the person was taken into a ship, undressed.
		There was a series of surgical examinations and so forth.
		And often this whole presentation scene where they're shown a small strange style.
unidentified		They have to hold it.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		One of the various kinds of things that seem to happen in a very routine way.
		And then the person's taken back.
		If there often mistakes, the person is put in the wrong bed, or the person's put her off the feet up on a pillow, and they have a front of the bed and they're in the cap downstairs.
unidentified		I'm sure you get monthly just working with the people.
		One man is driving a car.
		It's going to be a month to a group of workers.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		They unseat themselves with a different position.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The different man is driving the car.
unidentified		They have no recollection of how that happened.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In other words, people are put down in the wrong place with the wrong clothes or whatever it is, suggesting that there's a kind of an undue haste operating here.
		But it does, of course, give a very specific kind of physical evidence to these events.
		These are out-of-body experience.
		These are out-of-the-house experiences, as we like to say.
		But the alien haste, I think, signals something in a strange way.
		It signals that they're working too hard, too fast, against some kind of deadline would be the deduction we could make.
		And those all may be wrong deductions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here's a question for you, Bud.
		During these abductions, have there ever been cases where the person abducted is with several other people that they're able to then describe to you?
		Or is it a person always singly abducted without another human being ever being?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, in many, many cases, people are abducted in groups.
		I have two cases where there are seven people abducted simultaneously, all remembering the same story.
		John Carpenter just gave a lecture at the conference I spoke at in Houston yesterday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are these people, Go Bud, who don't know each other otherwise?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In these cases, these are families or people who do know one another.
		But one wonderful case, well, I'm working on two right now.
		We're trying to locate people we have names, and we have a name in one case and a physical description in another case of a stranger who was abducted along with the person I was working with.
		We're trying to locate these strangers.
		But there is a wonderful case where a woman in Boston, in the Boston area, was abducted, remembered an old lady with her in the craft, actually had a conversation with the old lady, and the old lady managed to tell her her name and where she was from, although all of this was forgotten until hypnotic regression was entered into.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Women in Boston then remembered the old lady's name and her hometown, and although this was an event that had happened seven years earlier, the town was a very small town in one of the Dakotas, as I remember.
		The town clerk was contacted.
		In fact, such a woman had lived there and had died.
		Unfortunately, it was not available.
		But there were some very interesting stories from her surviving sister about a very strange adventure that her sister had had, which was very terrifying to her.
		But the very fact that the woman in Boston was able to describe, get the name right, get the town right, and get the particular description, even of the kinds of clothes she wore, and the fact that she was an artist, because she had been able to tell the Boston woman that's in the craft, I think it goes a long way to establishing the reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does, Bud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you ever got two credible people in separate locations, both still alive, you would have something that just might be the key that opens up the whole business.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		See, that's one of the other interesting things, Art.
		There are so many areas where the evidence is just coming forward, not in little dribbles, but it's coming in quite a rush.
		In the conference that I just attended and spoke at in Houston, a young woman in the Houston area who is in the medical field presented an x-ray of a man who had actually tried to commit suicide, and the x-ray was done just routinely.
		He shot himself in the head, and the x-ray was taken for medical purposes to locate the bullet and so forth.
		The man is still living, although in evidently pretty terrible shape, and has been moved to a hospital in Mexico.
		He was a Mexican.
		But this x-ray showed a very unusual thing.
		There is an absolutely clear-cut spring-like object, which is evidently in the finus cavity right behind it, near the pituitary gland.
		It's a totally foreign object.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A spring-like object.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		A spring-like object.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It looks like, you know, the kind of spring you have in a ballpoint pen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It looks like that, although it's much smaller, but it's a very distinct metallic object.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, we don't know anything about what that is, but nobody is supposed to have something like that next to the pituitary gland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The suggestion is, of course, that we may have now another x-ray of an implant.
		This man is lingering from his suicide attempt with a bullet in his head.
		And the woman there in Houston is investigating this further and hoping that it's a horrible thing to say, but if the man doesn't survive, that an autopsy could be done and this object could be recovered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have they managed to attain that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if he passes away, will they be able to do anything?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, that's something that I leave to the medical people there.
		The problem, a lot of these things are not as easy to do just because of the proprieties involved and the ethics involved.
		But this is something that, I mean, this just turned up in a completely accidental way.
		And therefore, I should point out that head x-rays are not typically done.
		In other words, doctors do not like to routinely prescribe a full head x-ray.
		So it isn't as if we have literally millions of x-rays of heads the way we do of the rest of the body and the teeth and so forth.
		So the fact that this was done because of the suicide attempt and the bullet lodged in the skull, the head x-ray turned up what seems to be an implant.
		So, here we are again.
		When we talk about these breakthroughs, they are coming left, right, and center.
		And as I say, the evidence is simply accumulating at such a rapid rate that society is going to have to get itself together and decide, you know, we're going to have to decide how to affect this transition into a period where we are dealing quite consciously with the existence of a non-human intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about the number of abductions?
		You'd be the one to know, bud.
		I'm sure you get reports all that tonight.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I pick up at least two new cases every single day.
		And I would guess that we have in the United States, well, many, many millions.
		We might be dealing with five million abductions.
unidentified		If you have a second, I'd like to read you something.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I just read this letter today I received from a woman, and this is just so typical, and I thought it would be interesting for people to understand what would suggest an abduction.
		This is a woman who's 35 describing about an event that happened when she was 11 or 12.
		She said, my room had wooden louvered shutters at the bottom half of the windows.
		I always felt very exposed at night in my room and used to dress and undress in the bathroom.
		I lay awake now sometimes trying to force myself to remember more of this incident, but my mind won't let me.
		She wants to know why it bothers her after 23 years.
		I find that I cannot stand to see an exposed window at night and even make sure the mini blinds are all angled up so no light could shine down through them.
		She said she was asleep in bed at the age of 11 or 12 and awoke to see light coming down through the shutters.
		The light was most strong in the window directly above my head, but I could see it coming through another window too.
		It was dark outside.
		She said, I thought I heard what were voices barely buzzing at my hearing threshold.
		I was completely unable to move.
		Total paralysis.
		This could have been from intense fear, I suppose, but I remember not being able to move my head, my arms, legs.
		I could barely breathe.
		I remember desperately wanting to be able to run into my dad and mom's bedroom, but being unable to do so.
		I had the worst feeling of deep dread.
		Sometimes, even now when I'm trying to remember, I still get a sense of this numbing dread.
		I can feel my heart rate and respiration increase, and my muscles even get rigid with stress.
		I have a brief picture of silhouetted heads bobbing around in my room.
		I don't know where that image comes from, and it may be completely unrelated.
		I then remember being outside my house when it was barely getting light outside by an oak tree near my room.
		It's hard to piece this all together.
		Anyway, she just goes on to say at one point that she knows the difference between fantasy and reality and so forth, but she has this incredible fear.
		She said she watched the TV special featuring your friend who was abducted and had an implant.
		And I must admit that I had a strong reaction to the program.
		I tremble and I had to keep my teeth from chattering.
		Now, when you hear something like this, you know that this woman is suffering from a very real trauma.
		These are the effects that one runs into with post-traumatic stress disorder.
		And she's 35 years old and desperate to find out more about this event at the age of 11.
		She has other problems, too.
		These are the sorts of things that if any of our listeners recognize these in their own lives, that I would suggest that they get in touch with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if we talked about this before, Bud, but that was so traumatic that it forces me to again ask, how many of these people that have had experiences, don't you wonder, didn't make it through it with their sanity?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, might be in mental institutions today?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a case where I have certainly two cases, actually, where after the fact, in one case, the son of this particular person, the son happens to be a psychiatrist.
		In the other case, it was the wife of the particular person, wrote to me, and I've worked with them and so forth.
		But each one described the death, the suicide, of the first case, the father, in the other case, the husband, after a particularly terrifying, evidently a terrifying UFO experience.
		So there have been deaths.
		There have been people who have not made it.
		Now, this woman who incidentally, I just happened to get her a letter when I came back from my Houston trip, and I did phone her because I'm going to be speaking at a conference in Gulf Priest, Florida next week, and she lives in Florida, so I'm going to try to work with her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you literally got this letter tonight?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I read it maybe a half an hour ago.
		But the point is she seems very sane.
		She went into her background.
		It's a very, very intelligent, clearly written letter, as many of these letters are.
		These are not people who are, in any sense, strange.
		These are people who are suffering from a very real trauma, a series of traumas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much help can you give these people?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing that can be done, of course, once you get to know the individual and feel that he or she is stable and that there is a kind of safety net at home, that the person has friends they can talk to or relatives or a therapist or whatever, and so they're not totally alone, and you undertake the idea of hypnotic regression to look back into the experiences.
		There is a process that I think is a little bit like working a splinter out of the flesh, working the memories out, which might be very painful to extricate.
		But once they're out, once the splinter is out, the flesh can heal.
		The person feels a lot better because, first of all, the self-doubt disappears.
		That gnawing thing, I must be crazy, there's something the matter with me.
		How can I possibly have had this happen?
		And of course, the saddest thing about this is that as children, very often the child will run to mother or dad and say, the little men in the room, I couldn't move, so on.
		And we'll be told, you just had a bad dream, go right back in there and go back to sleep.
		So once the child, as now An adult is looking into this and can ventilate a lot of the fear and a lot of the anger, which is virtually inevitable, and can have that sense that there's nothing the matter with them.
		They're perfectly normal.
		It's just that they've acted in a strange way because they've had these terrible fears.
		The fear that this woman can't go by an open window and it's got to close at night.
		It has to get the blinds down at the age of 35 with a whole family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really more like a phobia at this point, isn't it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, the phobia is, that's one of the most fascinating things, art, of the way phobias can often be explained away and can actually be lessened when the person realizes, as is often the case, the phobia is connected with the UFO experience.
		The actress Mayor Wittingham, who was in the film Intruders, called me and had me talk to a man she knew who thought he might have had these experiences.
		He had a terrible phobia of sharks when we discussed that.
		And I said, well, I imagine, trying to do a little eating, I said, I imagine you must, when you're afraid of sharks, you must think of that great big mouth with all those teeth.
		He said, no, no, I never think of that.
		I said, well, what do you think of when you think of sharks as being so scary?
		He said, it's their eyes and something about their skin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, their eyes, of course, sharks' eyes are just dead cold.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the point is, he realized the gray skin and the haunting eyes and the coldness when he began thinking about it associated with the alien.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It was nothing to do with teeth.
unidentified		No need to thought about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good place to stop, bud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a 9 o'clock newscast, and we'll be right back with you.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So stay right there.
		Bud Hopkins is my guest, and we will be opening the telephone lines.
		So stand by for that.
		You're listening to Area 2000 from Las Vegas.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		From Janke Gonzal Pleasure Downtown.
		This is KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, good evening, and welcome back to Area 2000.
		Bud Hopkins is my guest this evening.
		I want to remind everybody a couple of station keeping items here.
		The Bigelow Foundation is the one that makes all this possible.
		If you have questions, if you have a story, if you have somebody you would like to talk to about an experience in one of the areas that we discussed, please contact Angela Thompson, who is the research coordinator for the Bigelow Foundation, during the business week between 9 and 5 at area code 702-456-1606.
		702-456-1606.
		Angela Thompson.
		And let me also give you the telephone numbers if you would like to speak, a rare opportunity to speak to Bud Hopkins.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, our number is 383-8255.
		383-8255.
		If you're calling from out of state, please note one of these numbers.
		Toll-free, it's 1-800-338-8255.
		1-800-338-8255.
		The wildcard direct aisle lines are Area Code 702-385-7214.
		7214.
		Let them ring until they're answered.
		And finally, if you have never called at all, no matter where you are, we have a special line for you, Area Code 702-385-7213.
		Repeating that number, area code 702-385-7213.
		Now back to Bud Hopkins.
		Bud, are you still there?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll get phone calls here in a moment.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And how long are we going to go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we've got about 53 minutes or so to go.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I couldn't remember.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was a one-hour show, but I couldn't remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we're a two-hour show.
unidentified		Oh, great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And even that's not enough, MiniCon.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything else?
		You know what I wanted to ask you, Bud?
		What is your current area of fascination?
		In other words, as you've moved through investigating these abductions, what is the most fruitful area, the best area, do you think, of research?
		But what are you concentrating on right now?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to be giving a workshop on Saturday in GoFreeze on how parents can handle the issue of their children being abducted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a very important thing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And I have, of course, a projective test that I've developed.
		I have a wonderful videotape which was sent to me by a man who used a test on his daughter and videotaped a six-year-old.
		It's extremely moving.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you give a sense of how you would do that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean by a test?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, this is my projective test.
		The basic idea is if a child feels that, I mean, if the parents feel a child is having abduction experiences, and that would mean that the child is terrified, doesn't want to sleep in his or her room, and talks about monsters in the room with huge eyes.
		The child then described as maybe being taken outside.
		Perhaps the parents find the child outside.
		Physical marks, cuts, and these scoop marks and so forth on the child's body.
		All the sorts of things that would lead virtually anybody who knows about the patterns to suspect abduction.
		I've developed this test, and it's partly to help the child feel freer to talk about the experience.
		What the test is, and I present it in the framework of a game of fun.
		When I do it, I play with the child first, and we fool around.
		And this is a child anywhere between two and a half and let's say ten.
		And then I say, now this is a game, and see if you know who or what these people are.
		And I have ten cards with coloring book-style drawings of heads one on each card.
		And they go this way: Santa Claus, a Batman, a clown, a policeman, a little girl, a ninja turtle, then an alien head.
		Then a little boy, a witch, and a skeleton head.
		So the first thing, of course, is to see what the child, how the child reacts when they get to the alien head.
		And most amazing things happen.
		This little girl on the videotape, who at the age of six, as soon as she sees the head, just bursts into tears, hides her face in her father's arms, said she's terrified.
		That's the man from her dreams.
		She doesn't want to look at it.
		As this whole thing progresses, at one point, she asks her father, where did you get that?
		The picture of the alien.
		Her father has quite a bit of time trying to get her to talk about what her dreams are, she calls them dreams, of course, with this figure.
		And she said they come in and they take her out and put her in their car and take her away.
		And he said, what kind of car is it?
		And she said, it doesn't have any wheels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And she is in tears throughout this whole thing, totally terrified of looking at this thing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I have had...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, after seeing that on a videotape, for example, would you then call the parents?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, have been in touch with the parents.
		But, of course, this is a test that is mostly administered by a therapist that I have provided a copy of the test to.
		A number of people have them.
		I mean, there must be at least 100 of these out now.
		It's extremely effective.
		Now, the second part of the test is I'll ask the child to divide them into two piles, the good guys and the bad guys.
		And so once they do that, you can ask them, because the alien inevitably ends up with a bad pile, why do you like this one in the good pile?
		And then you turn to the alien pile and ask why you don't like that.
		And in this case, with a little girl, she couldn't even look at the picture.
		She kept turning it over and saying she just couldn't look at it.
		And she'd cry and so forth and so on.
		And the third part of the test is I'll ask the child to make up a story.
		I'll tell them I really love stories, and I bet you can make up a good story and a silly story or a scary story or a funny story.
		And I pick out the ninja turtle, whatever they liked, and we started with the story there.
		And then I take out the alien picture and have them make up a story.
		And of course, that, again, is a wonderful way to elicit real events.
		And it gives you a lot of insight into how to then go about helping the child cope with these experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		All right.
		There is a full bank of lines that would like to speak with you, Bud, so why don't we do it?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On our first-time caller line, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
		Good evening.
		Where are you calling from, please?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm calling from Nye County.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nye County.
		All right.
		Turn your radio off, please, sir.
		The radio off, please?
unidentified		Off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go right ahead.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm calling from Nye County, and I'm presently 35 years old, and I walked out when I was 17 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You walked out of what?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Are you familiar with the book Strangers Among Us?
		Oh, yeah, the walk-in things.
		Yes, I became a walk-in when I was 17 years old.
unidentified		And I've unfortunately have a difficult time trying to assert myself.
unidentified		It seems to me that our country, I know about MJ-12 and the activities going on.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It seems that there's a problem with our government.
		They don't seem to want to help us.
		And I hope to see that someday that that changes.
		Well, we certainly are working to hope that the government can change its policy about ridiculing people who have had UFO experiences.
		The official government policy comes down in its practical implications to one very simple idea.
		Anyone who says they've had abduction experiences or sightings for that matter are either lying, desperately mistaken, or somehow psychologically deluded.
		And this is, of course, a terrible thing.
		And I thank you for your comments, sir.
		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure, but even if let's say I were a business person or somebody with a pretty good career underway, and I had an abduction experience, frankly, Bud, I don't know that I'd relate it to anybody.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I advise people I work with, abductees, not to go public because there are hidden risks.
		As an example, one woman desperately wrote to me that she had gotten herself, after exploring her experiences, she had gotten herself involved in a divorce and a messy divorce with her husband.
		He was trying to get custody of the children on the grounds that she was insane because she believed she had been abducted by a UFO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he win?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I don't think he won.
		I had never met this person at all.
		It was just to think through letters.
		But one would never imagine in the middle of a relatively going marriage that something like that could happen, and then you can see that the husband could use even something like this in such a vicious way against his wife.
		There are all kinds of problems, and I've only had maybe 12 people or so of all the people I've worked with, maybe probably in the area of almost 500 people, I've probably had only about 12 willing to come forward and use their full names and describe their accounts.
		And I think that this is the interesting thing, in a way the terrible thing, even though those of us who have been looking into this for a long time, Linda and George and of course many of the other guests you've had on the program, we're in essence very much winning the war.
		The war against the skeptics who refuse to look at this, who refuse to think about it, or admit its possibility.
		We're winning the war, but in the meantime, the one battle that they have won is that they have managed to create such a climate of ridicule that witnesses are afraid to come forward and state their names, give their names in their positions, and tell what happened to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what that might mean in terms of how many have not come forward, Bud, versus those that have.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, it's only a tiny, tiny percentage of those that come forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be my guess.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Tiny percentage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard Line 3, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
		Good evening.
		Where are you calling from, please?
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		Tucson, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tucson, yes, sir.
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		I want to ask Bud a question.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Mm-hmm.
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		I'm going back now more than 50 years when I was about seven years old.
		And there was a phenomenon that happened then that was followed by some strange things later on.
		But basically what it was, I remember I was alone in the living room.
		I was about six or seven, and there was a Christmas tree with presents around it.
		And this is a memory that's persisted all my life.
		A ball of light came in the window.
		It must have been about the size of a volleyball or basketball.
		Came in the window, went around the living room.
		I washed it and went back out again.
		And sometimes I've asked myself, did this really happen?
		And there's nothing to say that it didn't.
		You know, it seems to be a very, very, extremely vivid recollection.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, the two situations here, you could have had an experience which we tend to associate with UFO experiences, conceivably even abductions, but there's also the phenomenon known as ball lightning.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Did you know anything about what the weather was doing at the time or whether this thing made any noise?
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		No, it was completely silent.
		And it was completely round and glowing.
		And I thought at first that it had entered in a broken part of the window.
		But when I looked later on, the window was solid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, what was the weather at the time outside?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know?
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		I don't recall, but it was not in a place where you'd expect that.
		It was in a place called Holly Drive in a canyon near Hollywood.
		And it was not a place where one would expect that kind of phenomenon to happen.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, those are the only two alternatives I can think of for what you've just described.
		And if you associate it with other experiences that might relate to the abduction of phenomena, then I would suggest looking into them.
		But, of course, if it's sort of just an isolated event, it...
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		I'll be extremely brief.
		One was as if time stopped.
		I was walking in the desert, and it was as if something had shifted.
		I've never been able to put it into words very well, but it's as if something had shifted and something strange had happened, and it was like a frisson, like a chill all of a sudden.
		And you look back and you say, what the heck was that?
		And another one was an extremely bright flashing light, and this was only about five or six years ago, where I had thought I was laying in bed and everything was extremely quiet.
		It was like the other phenomenon, a complete lack of sound.
		Yeah.
		And an extremely bright flash that filled the room.
		And I remember waiting because I thought there's going to be an explosion.
		So it repeated itself in about 10 minutes, and I walked out and back, and I didn't hear a sound.
		Everything seemed normal.
		But I don't particularly connect it with anything.
		I feel that I shouldn't really try to interpret it in any way.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		All right, you say you walked out the back?
unidentified		Or looked out the back?
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		I walked out and back.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I wish you got dressed.
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		And the one thing that I remember distinctly was that, and this is a recollection later on, that there was a complete lack of sound.
		I didn't hear anything.
		Well, no animals, no birds, no planes, or anything.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's also something that's commonly reported.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would say if all of this leaves you pretty uneasy, then it's probably worth looking into.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by that, he probably means finding somebody who can help you out with being regressed.
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not really that uncomfortable with it.
wildcard in tuscon ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just not something that's ever particularly frightened me at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Collar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it seems to happen, though, multiple times to people, not just once, but multiple times.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It begins in childhood.
		It's as if the person is a kind of, as it were, a tagged animal and on it goes.
		And the person is picked up many, many times in their childhood.
		Now, this is just a very interesting thing.
		Again, this is something I found out tonight in one of my cases, but I have several cases where, as small children, people remember having been abducted, and at the end of the abduction, having been given a small object almost like a reward.
		And in one case, with one little boy, it was a kind of rather rare geode-like mineral formation.
		Very strange that there's actually something that is available and sold in stores and sell minerals and crystals and so forth.
		This little boy had a collection of three or four, and finally, when his mother found them, he told her that the little men gave them to him if he was good.
		And this is a little boy at the time, six years old.
		He had no access to a store where he could have bought these things.
		The mother gave them to me on the ground she didn't even want them in the house with her.
		She was very upset by them.
		But I just picked up another case where a little girl, again, I mean, she's now an adult, but she remembered being given, every time something happened, three marbles, and they had strange inscriptions on them, little raised characters, and she loved to hold these, and they were very frightening to her, but very somehow appealing at the same time.
		There are so many sub-patterns within the abduction phenomenon, but this would suggest, again, their knowledge of how to control children by rewards and, you know, I suppose the carrot and the stick together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, again, speaking now, for the person who might be out there and have had these experiences, and the phones are all lit up, so I assume many have, but, you know, vague feelings of unease or even a fairly serious uneasiness with events that have occurred in your life, are you fairly sure that a person would be better off exploring them and finding out what they are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or could it be that when you found out it was something really kind of on the negative side, an abduction or multiple abduction experiences, it might be more of a negative?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, you see, every case involves a very distinct human being who's had some kind of experience.
		And as in any other of life's problems, everyone is different in how they respond to, let's say, a buried trauma or whatever.
		And there are times when you don't, it doesn't seem to be a good idea to pursue it, and there are times when you feel like, again, it's worth working out the splinter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, as a researcher, do you make that judgment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you hear the story, are there times, Bud, where you think it better not to tell them?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I try to make the decision with that person.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In other words, we do this as a kind of a joint process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		This is why I try to do a very solid, long interview before I do any kind of regressive hypnosis.
		There are just too many things to consider.
		And we have a little kit which is mailed out.
		It's an eight-page brochure, really, about when to do this and when not to to look into your experiences.
		And this is available again through the Intruders Foundation through IF.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how do they get hold of it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, they could write to just the letters IF, and it's box 30233.
		30233.
		New York, New York.
		And the zip is 111-10011.
		And we will send this out free of charge to anybody who feels that they've had this experience and wants some information about whether or not they should look into it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's great.
		That's IF, which stands for the Phil Trudis Foundation.
		Truders Foundation box 30233, New York, New York, 10011.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Line one, good evening.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
unidentified		Yes, the last time I spoke to Mr. Hopkins on this program, he said it was preposterous to think that people who claimed to be abducted by aliens were actually victims of government mind control.
		But consider the fact that for years the government has had a technology that can use microwaves to place people in a hypnotic trance from a remote distance and then project any kind of image or thought into their minds.
		So someone could be zapped from a van sitting on their street without noticing anything unusual before that.
		And so I think that anyone who understands the UFO movement will realize that it's part of the New Age movement, which is working to create an occult world religion, which would be very useful to a world government in controlling the public by superstition and religion.
		So what do you think?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I suppose what you say is possible.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I think it's, again, I would have to say I think it's preposterous, but I think it's possible.
unidentified		Thank you for coming again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's determined to think that it's government control.
unidentified		We have too many situations of UFOs connected with abductions, so with these experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		On the first floor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Card Line 3, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening.
		This subject is all about just people who have been captured, or it can be about one that had led on the ground, and the person went over to investigate after had left.
		Well, no, that's right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I'm interested in all kinds of things.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Tell me your experience.
unidentified		Okay, out in the desert in 1959, when we were on a motorcycle run, we was laying out a run, and there was two of us.
		And he went out, his chain broke, and I was pulling him, and it got dark, real dark, no moon.
		And he was lighting bushes of fire so we could run from one bush to the next.
		And I was riding him.
		We left his behind.
		And all of a sudden, a light came down out of the sky, and I saw him running, and I looked up, and I took off running.
		And this round object landed on the ground, and we could hear it tinking around on the ground.
		We were hiding in an outcropping of rocks.
		And after this object left, we stayed behind the rocks until it grew light.
		And it was one cold night, and it was about 30 miles away from Edwards Air Force Base.
		Okay, we went over there to investigate, and both our motorcycles were standing side by side with a clutch lever to brake lever.
		So they had picked his up and put it next to mine.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, did you see how they did that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		If you were watching that?
unidentified		No, we didn't.
unidentified		We were hiding behind an outcropping of rocks.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Did you kind of peek out to see what they were doing?
unidentified		No, no, we were afraid to put our head up because we didn't know if they had some sort of gun.
unidentified		We didn't know what they were doing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you one question.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever have dreams about that after that?
unidentified		No.
		In fact, I haven't, but we've been keeping in touch.
		But what happened, see, we called, he called.
		I was afraid.
		We told all our buddies the next day at the motorcycle meeting that we didn't want to put them in there.
		But we had taken this thing, it melted on a sand into glass.
		This thing was so hot.
		And in daylight, it cooled off, and we took a bunch of chunks of this stuff.
		Well, he got all involved, my buddy, and he called the Air Force and told him where it was.
		Well, the Air Force annexed this place, stripped it to the ground, and he tried and tried and tried.
		But I told him, just keep your mash up, boy, because you're not going to get nowhere.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Did he save any of that market?
unidentified		No, I had a chunk, and he came to me about two months ago and asked for a chunk of it.
		I have a little chunk of it now for proof actually for a must have pepper-found wood market in there.
		Well, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, call it, hold it, hold it.
unidentified		Bert, would you like to solicit something here?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I was thinking, yeah, if he could leave his phone number off the air, he'd put him on hold, he could talk to him tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You willing to do that, caller?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Information.
unidentified		Sure, I'm willing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then what I'm going to do is I'm going to put you both on hold, do a station identification, get the number, and we'll be right back, all right?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, both of you stand by, and we're going to do a quick station identification here.
unidentified		From Jackie Gons Plaza downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
unidentified		KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we got that done.
		Good evening, everybody.
		You're listening to Area 2000.
		My guest is Bud Hopkins, and we just made a transaction there, and we got the number, and Bud Hopkins now has it.
		Back now to Bud Hopkins.
		Bud, are you there?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll be interested in the follow-up on that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anytime there is physical evidence, it's pretty exciting.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Makes a difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that something that what would you do if you got hold of that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you managed to get a hold of a piece of that, what would you do with it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have an abductee who happens to be a top-flight chemist who works in an extraordinarily well-equipped commercial laboratory.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And I will send material to him and see what he has to say about it.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Get it analyzed.
		All right.
		Line two, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins in Las Vegas.
unidentified		Good evening, gentlemen.
		Thank you very much for taking my call.
		Great program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad you're enjoying it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		I just have a question for Mr. Hopkins.
unidentified		When these people say that they have been, quote, astral projecting, unquote, have any of these people been able to describe any, like, Martian terrain or Jovian atmosphere or anything that's remotely scientifically able to be confirmed?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I haven't used the term astroprojection, and it's not a term that I feel is applicable to the FO experience.
		The FO experience, the abduction experience, is quite physical.
		The person is taken out of wherever they were.
unidentified		Right, so it's not an out-of-body experience.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not an out-of-the-house experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, thank you.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		But they're taken into a craft, and the experience generally takes place completely inside a kind of closed space.
		People describe it as being like a doctor's office or a lab or something, extremely clean and so forth.
		Now, in terms of there are some reports of people who feel that they have seen other worlds within this experience.
		We don't know whether that's actually true or whether imagery is being shown to them.
		There are many cases where it would seem an abductee is shown some kind of situation, imagery, some kind of disaster, whatnot, which we think is kind of an alien projective test to see if people, how people react emotionally.
		But in terms of the actual projection issue is not really applicable here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's keep moving.
		On the first time.
		Caller line, you would have been on the air.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins in Las Vegas.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Riverside County, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, go right ahead.
unidentified		Yes.
		Mr. Hopkins, if I could ask you a question about, well, it's not exactly missing time.
		I have had experiences during the night when I've had too much water to drink and I have to go potty.
		I always check my watch just to see what time it is.
		For the heck of it.
		Sometimes it says one o'clock.
		Okay, I go back to bed.
		Next time I get up, look at my watch, like an hour or two later.
		It's one o'clock.
		The secondhand's still knowing.
		There's nothing wrong with a watch.
		It is not missing time.
		What on earth is it?
		It has happened many, many times.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, from this distance, it's very hard to know exactly what's going on.
		We'd have to sit and talk about other kinds of experiences and other things you might have noticed.
		Does this ever happen to your watch during the day?
unidentified		No, no, no, not during the day at all.
		I have seen UFOs, and I've had witnesses with me when it has occurred.
		I had those pop marks, one on my inside of my cat, one on my ankle.
		When I was a child in Texas, we were visiting, and the doctor didn't know where it came from, and it just oozed and oozed until finally it took like six months to heal.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's unusual.
unidentified		And left these embedded scars in my cat and on my one ankle that looks just like these scars you speak of, the scoop marks.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, when you have these experiences at night, is there any sense that you have dreams connected with them?
unidentified		No.
		No.
		And I have never remembered anything like abductions.
		I actually have, like I said, I have seen UFOs, and I've sat there and watched them for as long as five minutes on one, about three minutes with the girl down at the market, the box girl we've watched right across the street.
		I really don't know what, Patman, It's gone on throughout the years, just odd things that have occurred since I was a child.
		But this one thing has gotten me puzzled because when you talk of missing time, this is like time doesn't go anywhere.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, if I assume that you get out of bed to go to the bathroom and it's one o'clock, that when you come back from the bathroom, you probably look at the clock again, right?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, correct.
unidentified		It's a couple hours later.
		You know, I don't just get right out of bed again at one o'clock.
		It's usually like a couple hours later, and I'm looking at my watch, and here it still says one o'clock.
		And I said, I was just here at one o'clock.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a digital clock in the house?
unidentified		No, this is my watch.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might be interesting to put another clock in there and see if the other clock is doing the same thing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Digital clock.
unidentified		All right.
		Okay.
		Thank you very much.
		Thank you.
		Bye-bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, really, really a good idea.
		Two clocks.
		Have you ever tried something like this before?
		Have you heard a similar story to that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a lot of anomalies around clocks for some reason in these cases.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I recently was aware that there was an abduction in someone's apartment, and the clocks in the bedroom were flashing as if they had electricity had failed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And yet there was no power outage in the rest of the house, and none of the other clocks are doing no power outage anywhere around in the neighborhood.
		Just the bedroom from which the person was evidently taken.
		This sort of thing happens frequently.
		There's no way that one can imagine that electricity could be interrupted on just certain outlets in one room when those outlets are connected to a circuit that continues into another room with no interruption of service.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		But is there any indication that the time that people spend away from wherever the area from which they've been abducted, is it linear time or is there some indication that for an apparent large amount of time spent in the abduction, hardly any time has passed?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a very few cases like that.
		We do hear of that occasionally, but it's generally what we get is a very literal kind of situation.
		The person is gone for two hours, say, and generally has a range of memory that approaches when we take normal memory and put it together with what comes out under hypnosis.
		You generally begin to account, it would seem, for the time, for the full amount of time they were gone.
		But we do have a few cases where someone, there was a very famous South American case, I believe the place was BD Dura.
unidentified		But what's the good old friend?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		His detachment of infantry had encamped, and he was gone for something like 20 minutes and came back, and he had a five days' growth of beard and so forth and so on.
		And the sense was that an enormous amount of time had gone by.
		There are very few stories of this nature, which are, of course, very interesting and very puzzling, but they're very far from the norm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		A lot of people want to talk to you, Bud.
		Good evening.
		On the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Reading.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reading, California.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
		I'm a first-time caller.
		I'm a second-time listener.
		I was in Ely, Nevada on April 17th of 87.
		I was in a place that was working for Nevada Department of Forestry out of the prison system.
		I was out in the desert.
		It was a clear day.
		And to this day, I don't know if I'll cry when I tell you this, but there was something that was about 100 yards away from me in the desert.
		And it was making no noise at all.
		And it was flying at a slow rate of speed.
		It was a light tan color with like tiger stripes going across it.
		It made no noise at all.
		It stopped.
		It sat there.
		And then took off again.
		And I just shook.
		I didn't know what I've seen to this day.
		My father's been listening to you for a long time, and he told me maybe I should call you and ask what it was that I seen because it's bothered me since.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in what way has it bother you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		You just were curious, or you felt kind of upset by it?
unidentified		Well, yeah, because I never really gave UFOs a thought until I seen this.
		When I had told the camp and some of the guards there, they told me not to say anything.
		And later the next day, there was these huge planes, like the ones that carry all the army troops.
		They flew in formation three in a row, back and forth across the desert, and they were flying low enough and slow enough to where I was standing on a hilltop with some friends of mine, and we could see into the cockpits, and you could see all the way through, and there was nobody in the cockpits flying these planes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		That's a very interesting story.
		We do get situations like that.
unidentified		Did the planes make a tremendous roaring noise after they left?
		Yeah.
		They didn't even rub it up.
		They made no noise.
		After they got like 100 yards away, then there was a loud rumbling noise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Well, what I see made no noise, and it was only so far away.
unidentified		I probably could have ran to it, but we were only allowed to go only so far out of the boundary.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Tell me one thing.
		Have you dreamed about this afterwards?
unidentified		Oh, yes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, what happens in the dream?
unidentified		I just wake up, and I'm sweating everywhere, and I don't understand why.
		I know I had a problem when I was there afterwards.
		We lived like 27 to a mobile home, and you're not allowed outside the mobile home anytime at night.
		And I found myself out in the middle of the yard.
		And I woke up, and I was there, and I got so scared because I knew I was not supposed to be out there.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, I think this should be looked into.
		And again, if you have that address that we gave, write to me, and tell me when you do, what's the closest big city to where you are in California?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reading, California.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll get it on the Atlas and then see who we can refer you to.
		But I think you ought to look into it.
		I think it'd be very important to me.
unidentified		A lot of other things I've seen out there, but I was told again, not to say anything.
unidentified		I wasn't even supposed to mention anything to anybody else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Tyler, thank you.
		And please contact Bud.
		You want to give that address one more time?
		It is.
		Okay.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's just write to me at F box 30233.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		New York, New York, 10011.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Very good.
		Let's keep moving, Bud.
		We're out there and use it for the phone.
unidentified		Line three, you're on the air with Beth Hopkins in Las Vegas.
unidentified		Texas Bob, San Jose, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Jose.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		Just a real quick comment.
		McDonald's paper, McDaniels' paper, referred to by Greesen, defines a very pragmatic methodology with which to prove or disprove Hoagland's Mars structures hypothesis.
		And it's kind of pertinent here.
		McDaniels also, in the same paper, compares Napp's ignorance to the Catholic Church's condemnation of Copernicus' astronomy and mathematics.
		And it kind of goes hand in hand with some of the things that people are, Mr. Hopkins certainly is having experiences with that are being denied by the government.
		I have two questions for you, Mr. Hopkins, and then I'll take them off the air.
		With reference to your paper, Ethical Implications of UFO Abduction Phenomena, and Lear's Public Statements of Alien Farming Human and Animal Body Parts for Sustenance, how do you see his story?
		And my second question is, why would someone of your stature bother to acknowledge someone as inconsequential as Philip Klass?
		And I'll take my answers off the air.
		All right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I appreciate the sentiment there.
		First of all, John Lear is a man I've known a long time, and I feel a genuine affection to John, although I must say I do not feel that the evidence has ever surfaced that would support the aliens using us as food, so to speak.
		Those issues, I think, just simply have gotten blown up out of rumors or whatever.
		I've worked with so many abductees for so many years, it's now 18 years.
		I've never run into this event, this kind of thing, ever.
		So it's not an issue that I think John's worries here are, let's say, vastly overblown.
		And I'm glad you mentioned that paper that I've written, which was published in IUR years ago, called What They're Doing to Us.
		But I still feel that that's an important paper, and I think it states my feelings pretty much down to the present time, although I wrote that thing six or seven years ago.
		But in terms of answering nameless people, like I think you mentioned a nameless person a minute ago, the reason I, you know, my feeling is that people like this particular individual should simply be frozen out of the dialogue.
		Unless a man is going to be, first of all, truthful, and he's not truthful, he has deliberately lied, and also, unless someone is going to be a gentleman and treat people as human beings with rights and so forth,
		and if one's going to try to be a journalist, which he doesn't try to do, for instance, he wrote an entire book attacking about seven or eight people, me very centrally, without interviewing any of us, because obviously it's a terrible thing to get facts in the way of your opinions.
		And so if that's the kind of person you are, from the point of view of serious investigators in this, I think you're absolutely right.
		We shouldn't pay any attention to them.
		And I want to make one very simple point here.
		What you were saying about the analogy with, of course, the Copernican revolution, the interesting thing is that I feel I'm the open person when it comes to belief systems.
		And it is the skeptic in the traditional scientific sense of visibility UFOs, people like Carl Sagan, who have the very narrow, rigid belief system.
		Because when somebody tells me an event such as the one we've just heard from the man's report about the desert and so forth, I have three options.
		That the man is a liar, that the man has totally made it up.
		The second one is that he's deluded and somehow didn't happen, but he thinks it did.
		Or the third is he's telling me the truth.
		It really happened.
		I have three options.
		And I lean very strongly to the third in the case of what he was saying because of the genuine emotion I was picking up in his voice.
		But the true believers, these people with very radical narrow beliefs, such as the professional scientists like Carl Sagan, who I must say is a very nice man personally, but has this narrow range, he's only limited to the first two options.
		He doesn't have the breadth to accept the possibility of the third.
		And therefore, his belief system is a narrower belief system, obviously.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Than yours and mine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Wildcard Line 3, good evening.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins, who's in New York.
		Where are you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Dave.
unidentified		I'm located in Mohawk Valley between Quincy and Portola.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		And in reference to the last caller where he said something about these humans are being used for human food.
		And in reference to that, I did catch the interview many times with John Lear.
		And he did not ever mention about them being used for human feud.
		What he did reference to is like enzymes and stuff like that.
		So I did kind of take reference to that.
		I think the previous caller had its information wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		Line one, good evening.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins in Las Vegas.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art?
		Fine.
		I have a piece of information I read.
		I don't know if you're familiar with this, by Milton William Cooper on the MJ-12.
		And I was going to ask a question.
		It tells about this was a man R. sorry, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, he left the line.
		Whoever he was.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins in Las Vegas.
unidentified		All right, sir.
		Hello?
		Yep.
		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Okay, well, you know, listening on the waiting for the phone, I got disrupted here.
unidentified		How are you, Bud Hopkins?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		Okay, now, I've kind of been with you for the last 18 years or so, but you kind of feel like the aliens are some type of evil type of force.
		But have you been much, just like Earth, there's good and there's bad, there's been a war on in heaven for quite some time.
		Have you been aware?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I just want to say, I'm not getting into disputes as to whether aliens are gods or devils, which is a kind of theological framework people kind of stuff them into.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		They're neither one.
unidentified		They're one or the other, yes.
		Oh, no.
		They are, yeah.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have a different theological point of view, and I think it's probably going to be fruitless to continue this.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Okay, no, no, we'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.
unidentified		Oh, sure, okay, surely.
		But you've been doing good work and trying to find out what exactly what's going on, because it's been like a cosmic watergate against our United Friends of Space, Shirley, that the Earth is being healed by their presence, the Hubby Telescope, the white star that's coming from the Mars, the Mars mission.
		Now, this is getting down to Earth, right?
		You can see that Richard Hoogan is with.
		Hello?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm there, yeah.
unidentified		Well, the United Nations, are you aware of the 1992 February 27th at the United Nations for Richard Hoigan's presentation that he done at the Hartsford Library?
		You are aware of that, yeah?
		Okay, now you're aware of that, and you still are.
		Well, why cannot everybody that wants to know the truth, I mean, this Mars mission, it was the most important event, and once again, the government in control of the planet, whether they're Russians or Americans or Chinese or whatnot, silly mortals, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right, Colin.
		Thank you.
		We're going to hold it there.
		But I want to ask you about how you deal with people who bring up the religious connection, how you deal with the whole subject of religion as it mixes in with this.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's, of course, a very difficult situation.
		And I found myself once dealing with a young girl, 13, who had been abducted the night before, along with her mother and her sister.
		They'd have identical experiences.
		They remembered the whole thing in great detail the next morning.
		And the 13-year-old was a born-again Christian who wanted to be a missionary and so forth and was in tears and absolutely terrified by what had happened and felt that her religion had been challenged.
		And she prayed to God to save this when she was on the table and these experiments were being done to her.
		And I found myself in a position of trying to defend her faith by saying that, of course, at the time of Copernicus, the word, the belief was that if this was to be understood that the earth was not the center of the universe, then that all religion was over with.
		And I said, of course, that belief has been accepted that we're not the center of the universe and religion is thriving.
		And I also pointed out that there must have been other times in her life when she prayed and her prayers were not answered.
		And that if that has ever happened to her, then she would have to realize that maybe there's some theological reasons for all this has happened, and that perhaps the theologians of no religion will make sense somehow of the presence of another life form, which is different from ours.
		I think that the religious people of the world are just going to have to face this and try to reconcile this new information with their religious beliefs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins in Las Vegas.
		Bud's in New York.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, sir.
unidentified		Do you ever share information from adeptees with government officials?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Do I?
		Yeah.
		Well, let's put it this way, not knowingly, in the sense that I don't have any government officials knocking on my door asking for information.
		But I would say that what I'm doing this very moment, as you and I are speaking, is sharing information, I should certainly hope, with government agents, because I hope there's somebody listening in to get a little bit of enlightenment on this subject who works for the government.
		I was giving a talk just recently in Connecticut, and a woman came over and said, there are several government agents in the audience.
		And I said, good, I wish there were 50 of them in the audience.
		They need to hear what I have to say.
unidentified		Why do they need to hear what you say when they should have most of the information?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, because obviously not everybody in the government, probably only a very, very tiny few in the government, which is my guess on this, because need to know is the way these things operate, really know what's going on, and the rest are quite confused.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And people in the government who don't know about the reality of this could be of use in helping the government, help push the government towards a greater attitude of openness.
unidentified		So you're saying it's like all top secret information that doesn't go down to lower levels?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, you can have a CIA operative, I'm sure.
		I've read enough about how this works.
		You can have a CIA operative who knows everything that's going on in Cuba and not a darn thing that's going on in Poland because no one is going to tell him because he doesn't have a need to know what's going on in Poland.
		He's just as ignorant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everything is in little compartments.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		What can we just tell us where this works?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And I'm certain that with the UFO material, it has been very highly restricted to just very, very narrow ranges.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, we have more people coming forward.
unidentified		Okay.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for raising the point.
unidentified		Thank you.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess that is true, isn't it?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		And so do you get a lot of interest?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you ever had government people walk up to you, Bud, and ask you questions about this?
unidentified		Well, as I say, not in any formal official way, Lord knows.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		You know, I suppose the government, probably, some branch they have, knows quite a lot about what I do that I'm not aware of.
		But I have had a NASA scientist come to me as an abductee on a personal private level asking to have the experience, personal experiences looked into through regressive hypnosis.
		I had a full colonel in the Army who has quite an important job and extremely high clearance as an abductee.
		I've worked with him, and on it goes.
		So there's absolutely no reason to think, with the phenomenon as widespread as it is, that there aren't people in the Senate and, Lord knows, perhaps the Cabinet, the Supreme Court, other people who are also abductees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will you ever make public this person you talked about earlier, a political type person?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will that ever become public?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, my profound hope is that he comes forward himself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you urging him to do that?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And he is very aware of the implications of the situation, absolutely, yes.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line two, thanks for waiting so long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi.
		Hi there, Bud.
		I talked to you one time, Bud, when you were here at the library, and I didn't get the chance to finish my story because the lady came up about her child, which seemed very significant, and I backed off.
		But did you ever hear about the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation up in Busby, the whole side scene, the sunshauses?
		Well, it's possible.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I've heard about it, and it doesn't register right now.
		I hear about so many things and so many cases.
		I mean, I know there have been many such reports in other areas.
		But do you have something to tell us about that particular?
unidentified		About 1970s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going to have to be fast, ma'am.
unidentified		Pardon me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, it's going to have to be fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're running out of time.
unidentified		Two years later, I went up and was doing business in Murphy, and the Indians all told me about, you know, they went out on their cars to sit and watch the parachute drops over that area, and they had great big B-29s and everything running out there with the...
		We saw three flying saucers over every one of the airplanes.
		The whole tribe saw them.
		It was about 1970s.
		Huh.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for relating that.
		Sorry we didn't have more time.
		Bud, we don't have more time.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has been, again, wonderful, and I'm sure we'll connect again.
		But I will try and get your address out one more time here.
		It's F-I-F-Box 30233, New York, New York, 10011.
		And, Bud, anything in particular that you want to hear about?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, if people feel that they may have had this sort of experience, abduction experiences, and it's causing them a little anxiety and trouble, and they would like to get some information about whether or not they should explore it and how to go about it, those are the people I'd like to hear from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, as always, Bud, it's been a pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's been my pleasure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it for Area 2000 this week.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
		Area Code 702-456-1606.
		Ask for Angela Thompson.
		That's Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And be with us next Sunday evening at 8 for another edition of Area 2000.

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