Art Bell

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Sept. 19, 1993 - Art Bell

01:47:36

Area 2000 with Art Bell - George Knapp, Stan Friedman

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20:06

george knapp

18:02

stanton friedman

57:55

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects: UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening, and welcome to Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
		And my guest this evening, right after our report from George Knapp, is going to be Stanton Friedman, all the way from Canada, nuclear physicist, a lecturer, and a big name in UFO circles.
		And we will get to Ms. Friedman in just a very few moments.
		First, I want to tell you, Linda Howe is on her way back at this hour to Philadelphia.
		And so she's not going to be with us this morning.
		And we'll catch up with her next week.
		There's no way, apparently, to do it in the air or in flight, I guess.
		So we'll not hear from Linda this evening.
		But our roving journalist, George Knapp, is here, and he'll catch us up with what happened with the lectures that went on and the meetings that went on, what's new in the world of UFOs, and so let's do it.
		George, good evening.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Good to talk to you.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I'm here to tell you about the glamorous life of the UFO journalist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		So contrary to popular opinion, it's not just all well-aged airport hot dogs, you know.
		I just walked in the door, minus my lost luggage after a weekend trip to Springfield, Missouri for the annual Midwest UFO conference, which in my opinion is just about the best-run conference in this business.
		There's so much going on in the field of research, it's difficult to keep up with all of it.
		The day when UFOs merely meant elusive lights in the sky is long gone, and the phenomenon is sprouting off in several intriguing directions.
		Highlights from the conference include a rare occurrence by Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr.
		Marcel's father, as you know, Art, was the military intelligence officer who discovered the wreckage of an alleged alien craft near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.
		Marcel Jr. remembers the night his father brought pieces of this wreckage home.
		He described how light but tough the metal was, and he clearly remembers the odd writings and inscriptions on the metal, some sort of language that he had never seen before.
		It was a very persuasive statement from an unassuming man who actually held this material in his hands, and I know that this is something your guest tonight is certainly qualified to discuss.
		Abduction researcher Bud Hopkins, who was a guest on this program a few weeks ago, shared some of his latest findings as well, including the case of a missing seven-month-old fetus.
		One day this lady is pregnant.
		The next day, the fetus is gone seven months into the term.
		Attempts to fully document this case are underway, and Bud says he will keep us posted.
		I've had a chance to have an extended personal conversation with Bud concerning the Linda Cortiel abduction case, which occurred in New York City, has been getting a lot of attention, and which was witnessed by several people, including an important political figure.
		Bud's been hit with everything but the bathroom fixture by his detractors in the past couple of months, and I think the bathroom is exactly where a lot of this criticism belongs.
		They have been vicious, unfair, and personal attacks on him, probably, I think, because the debunkers, which Stan Friedman certainly knows intimately, realize the importance of this case.
		Hopkins is confident, though, he says, when all the evidence comes out, that he will prevail.
		Also on the abduction topic, a panel of abductees, ably guided by the conference organizer John Carpenter.
		They shared some very moving insights into their experiences.
		You know, it's difficult to hear these gut-wrenching stories and not be affected by them, at least on one kind of an emotional level.
		Some major crop formation news was unveiled this weekend.
		Linda Howe, who certainly sends her regrets about being unable to join us tonight, reported on some scientific tests conducted on seeds of plants found inside these crop formations in England.
		There are apparently clear, scientifically measurable differences in how these seeds grow in comparison with seeds found just outside the formations.
		They grow slower, at least that's my understanding, and they exhibit several genetic changes.
		We also know that significant changes in the soil have been measured there, as if the soil had been bombarded by high-energy physics, some sort of particles.
		That kind of evidence sort of rules out hoaxers.
		Premier crop researcher Colin Andrews also had some bad news for people who think the formations are all hoaxes.
		Andrews says that recent formations turned up on land owned by both Prince Charles and the British Prime Minister.
		Because of the people that they are, their land is patrolled and is even monitored by security cameras.
		However, no one saw anything about the formation of these crop circles.
		If it is hoaxers, they're awfully clever and awfully brave to go on land that is patrolled and is fairly secure.
		Andrews also reported on a first ever tight crop formation in England.
		A Star of David appeared in a field on the same day that Israel and the PLO signed their historic peace agreement.
		It's a weird coincidence.
		It gets really far out there, but then you have to ask yourself, could someone be trying to tell us something?
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		That's my comment.
		Wow.
		George, can I take you back one second?
		You were talking about New Mexico and the crash in New Mexico and the pieces.
		George, is there anybody who claims to have, or do you have any knowledge, that anybody still has any of these pieces?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Not to my knowledge.
		You really should put that question to Stan because I got a feeling from my conversations with him that he may be online to try to find some people who may have picked this stuff up.
		Of course, the military came in and tried to scoop up all of the material, according to the witness reports.
		There are even reports that some of the material was recovered by some people who lived in the area, and the military found out that they had squirreled it away, and they came and got it even days or weeks after the crash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there could still be Some in somebody's basement or attic somewhere.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I guess it's possible, sure.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		And I think actually, Stan, I hope I'm not giving away too much, is on the trail of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I certainly will ask.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for that tip.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Back to the conference.
		Between 500 and 600 people attended this event, and they certainly went away with plenty to think about.
		Most surprising to me of all was that the media response.
		On the first day of this conference, the Springfield newspaper had a front-page story about it, and some of its speakers, all three local TV stations, ran stories on it.
		Fox TV out of L.A. was also there taping interviews.
		They were even interested in talking to your roving reporter here.
		No jokes about saucer nuts or Elvis sightings or Bigfoot or any of that sort of thing, just straight stories about the material that was being presented.
		It was a nice change from some of the snide and childish things that we've been reading here in the Las Vegas media.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you know, George, before you finally make that comment, that is that they treated it well, you almost need to see the final aired report because a lot of times right at the end of something that looks serious from your perspective, having done the interview, will engender some sort of flippant little remark at the end.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Sure, the little happy talk from the anchor people, but that didn't happen in this case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		It was a real pleasant surprise.
		You know, the Las Vegas newspapers might want to take a message from this, you know, and get in touch with the interests of their own readers one of these days.
		This Las Vegas library lecture series that your guest tonight is coming out here for, you know, it's sold out in a couple of days.
		Linda Howe is also coming to town.
		There's a great deal of interest in this topic.
		People take it seriously on some sort of an innate sense, and you would think that the media would pay attention to what their readers and listeners are saying to them.
		Southwest Missouri was not only the site for this conference, it's also something of a UFO hotbed.
		Since the beginning of this year, there have been 70 UFO sightings reported in that area around Springfield, including 17 disc shapes.
		27 of those incidents involved multiple witnesses.
		Abduction reports in the area have virtually exploded, and there have been a few dozen reported cattle mutilations as well.
		It's almost like you can say the gang's all here.
		I put the question to John Carpenter, why such activity is so prevalent there.
		He admits a lot of it has to do with awareness.
		In other words, when the public becomes educated to look for such things, and as he and his team have done, they find them.
		And in that sense, it may be that there's a lot more of this sort of activity in the hometowns of our listeners all over the West here, just waiting to be uncovered.
		We add this caveat, of course.
		Just because someone sees lights in the sky doesn't mean it's an alien spaceship.
		90% of all sightings are misidentifications, and just about anyone would agree with that.
		And just because someone says they've been abducted doesn't make it so, and not every cow that's killed is killed by someone from Alpha Centauri or the Ninth Dimension.
		People interested in these types of phenomena certainly need to keep an open mind, tempered, though, with a healthy dose of skepticism.
		And by skepticism, I don't mean the distorted version of the word, which has come to mean basically it can't be true, therefore it isn't, no matter what evidence you have.
		One final comment, Art, regarding your guest last week, Dr. Michael Swords.
		We were certainly glad to have a man with his credentials on the show, but I can't let some of this just pass without comment.
		As you noted several times in last week's program, Dr. Swords is not really a researcher.
		He reviews the work of other researchers.
		He said two things which directly affect the work that I've been doing, which I take strong exception to.
		Number one, he said we've heard nothing out of Russia about UFOs except rumors, rumors about what their government knows, and that simply is not true.
		As we have mentioned before briefly on this program, we were in Russia a few months ago.
		We obtained several hundred pages of official government and military documents.
		We interviewed government, military, and scientific people, people who have a great deal of inside information about what Russia knew about UFOs and knows about UFOs.
		Solid information, not rumors.
		They take it very seriously, and they say we take it seriously too.
		Second thing is, Dr. Sword says there isn't much to this Area 51 stuff.
		It's all conventional aircraft, although it may be top-secret U.S. planes that people have been seeing.
		I think that may be true now, but I think there is a lot of testimony and other evidence to suggest that this was not always the case.
		And we're not merely talking about the Bob Lazar testimony.
		There's a lot of people who have given testimony about what they've seen out there.
		And while it may be planes or flares or whatever now, I'm not sure that was always the case.
		To my knowledge, though, in the four years I've been working on this story, Dr. Swords has never spoken to any of the witnesses or investigators.
		He's never been to Area 51.
		He has done no investigation whatsoever.
		And I think it's certainly okay to have an opinion on this or anything else.
		But if you're going to make the kind of definitive statement that he made last week, I think the audience deserves to know whether you know what you're talking about.
		It was still an interesting program.
		I hope you invite Dr. Swords back again sometime.
		Your guest tonight is a really interesting man.
		He and I, as you may have guessed, are had some very distinct disagreements about a lot of issues, but it's generally been kind of a healthy disagreement, which is the way it should be, as long as both sides are doing some honest research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, give me a couple of healthy directions to look then, George.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I might, where are your disagreements?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Lazar, basically.
		Lazar.
		Stan has had significant doubts about Lazar all the way along.
		He has done, I think in fairness to him, he has done a lot more research than just about any of the other people who've been down on Lazar and the Area 51 story.
		In fact, I'm certain that he's done more.
		A lot of people have taken shots at this area, but have based it on nothing more than gut hunches or scuttlebutt or whatever.
		Stan has actually tried to do some work.
		We still have disagreements about the nature of his research and his findings.
		But as I said, I think that's really a fairly healthy thing for this kind of a field.
		He knows a lot about UFOs as much as anyone in the world.
		I think no one has worked harder to add credibility to the field.
		I look forward to hearing him tonight, and I look forward to hearing him here in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good enough, George.
		I really appreciate it.
		And filling in a little bit on the other side for Linda as well, in a way.
		We'll be back.
		All right.
		We'll see you next week, George.
		Thanks.
		Take care.
		That's George Knapp, our roving reporter who just managed to rove back barely in time from the Midwest to get on the show this morning.
		Linda did not.
		She's in the air, and she'll be with us next week.
		And now, from Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada, all the way to Canada, we're going to speak with Stanton T. Friedman.
		He is a nuclear physicist and lecturer.
		He received an M.S. degree in physics from the University of Chicago in 1956 and has had three distinct careers since then.
		For 14 years, he worked on the development of a wide variety of classified, advanced nuclear and space systems for such companies as General Electric, Westinghouse, General Motors.
		From 1970 to 1982, he lectured about and researched UFOs full time.
		Since 1982, he has combined lecturing, industrial consulting, and various research and communications activities.
		Overall, he's spoken at more than 600 colleges and to many dozens of professional groups in all 50 states, nine Canadian provinces, Germany, Finland, and England.
		He's appeared on hundreds of radio and TV shows across North America to include Night Line, Salway Josie Raphael, Unsolved Mysteries, a personal work, UFO Report, Sightings, Ron Reagan Jr., Sonata A.M., and many more.
		He's published more than 60 articles about UFOs and co-authored the August 1992 book, Crash at Torona, now in its third printing.
		Here is Stanton Friedman.
		Mr. Friedman, good evening.
unidentified		It's a pleasure to be on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a pleasure to have you, and we do have a remarkably good connection for this great distance.
unidentified		The telemetron.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as a matter of fact, it's a better connection than I've had with some people as time's owner two away, so I'm thankful.
unidentified		Mr. Edmond, I'm going to stay here right where we have birth with George.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, as you know, the fight from which my broadcasting and doing what Jason himself are area 51 and there was a big deal with Bird Missouri.
unidentified		I'm sure you well know the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And George indicated the two of you had some disagreement on the credibility of the Wazar story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are your comments?
unidentified		I think you have to separate the story into two parts.
unidentified		One is, is Bob Wazar telling the truth about himself?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And the other is, are there underground bases with alien vehicles there, or bases at least where vehicles are being researched?
unidentified		Right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And my focus has been on Lazar right from the word go, mainly because people were referring to him as a nuclear physicist.
		And since I am one, I constantly get asked, you know, what do you think about Lazar?
		Now, I don't like to express an opinion until I have done some research.
		And as I had told George back four years ago in 1989, when I first found out about Lazar and had agreed to meet with him, although he didn't show up when I came to Las Vegas for a mutual UFO network symposium in the summer of 89, as I told him then, I've had enough cases where people have misrepresented their credentials that if they're going to make extraordinary claims, we better check on the people.
		And that's what I did once I heard about Lazar.
		I saw him on television.
		He certainly comes across very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He does, and he seems, I am not a nuclear physicist, but to the layman, he seems very conversant with physics.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and so there wasn't anything that he said that obviously said, oh, this guy is throwing baloney here.
unidentified		So what I did was what I've done with a number of other people is try to check their credentials.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Scientists leave trails.
		They get degrees.
		They belong to professional groups.
		They publish papers.
		They have resumes.
		There's a whole long list of things.
unidentified		And this is the kind of checking I've done.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It has been claimed that Bob has master's degrees from MIT in physics and from Caltech in electronics, that he worked as a scientist for Los Alamos National Laboratory.
		Okay, that's three good places to start.
		Now, two other institutions of higher learning have been mentioned.
		He, to me, in the one phone conversation we had, where he promised to send me a resume, but incidentally never did.
		Now, resumes are useful because they tell you where.
		Who did he work for?
		You know, you can check that way.
		What groups does he belong to?
		All that thing.
		Anyway, he mentioned California State University Northridge, where ironically I will be speaking a few days after I'm in Vegas, and also Pierce Junior College, which is a junior college out in the San Fernando Valley, just northwest of Los Angeles.
		And so I checked all four schools.
		MIT, I checked both the alumni and the registrar's office, people who keep track of your college records.
		Now, the alumni office would only matter if you've got a degree, otherwise you're not an alumnus.
		But the registrar's office keeps track of everybody who ever went there at any time for any length of time.
		Neither one ever heard of him.
		Caltech, they never heard of him.
		In both schools, incidentally, I asked them, I said, well, do you get calls about people claiming to have attended and who never did?
		They said at least once a week.
		That's not an uncommon phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the aspect of this, though, that I'd like to bring up now is that he claims that all of his records of this sort, the ones you're mentioning, somehow have been erased, along with most of the records of his work at some of the facilities he claims he was at.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There's no question that the government can refuse to speak about what you did when you worked for them.
		But people have actually checked your books from these institutions.
		And incidentally, I did find a record for him, but not at either one of those places or at Cal State Northridge.
		I found that he had indeed taken courses at Pierce Junior College.
		Now, the chance of winding up at MIT starting at Pierce are essentially nil, but I've gone a step farther than that.
		I've checked with the high school that he attended.
		He took one science course, chemistry.
		He ranked in the bottom third of his high school class.
		Again, you don't go to MIT with that background.
		When he was up at the Alien, I don't know how Ross Fagans pronounced that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you did just right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The little alien, I think they call it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		When he was up there, two significant things, and I've got a tape of his presentation, or really he was responding to questions.
		When he was asked what year he got his degree, he hesitated and said, Well, 1982, I think.
		Well, nobody who's gotten a master's degree from MIT is going to hesitate about what year he got it in.
		Second, somebody asked him, and this is questions, the kind of questions that I've asked of his supporters there in Vegas, not only for a resume, but I'm more than 20 years older than Bob, and I can tell you who a lot of my professors were and what my textbooks were and their classmates.
		He gave the name of a professor of physics from Caltech who he was sure would remember him.
		Well, I tracked down that professor.
		He never taught at Caltech.
		He did teach at Pierce, and Bob apparently took some courses under him.
		But at the same time, when he was supposedly at MIT, now I also, so there's no evidence that he went to any of those places except Pierce.
		Now, beyond that, I checked with Los Alamos.
		I talked to the personnel office.
		I gave them two names.
		One I knew of a guy who worked there.
		I have professional dealings with Los Alamos on them.
		It's the Iraqi program.
		And they found my guy.
		They couldn't find Bob.
		But as I think George would agree, the phone book listing, which is put forth as proving that he worked there, does just the reverse.
		It proves he works for Kirk Mayer, which is a consulting outfit.
		It's sort of a job shop outfit.
		You work for them and you get seconded, as we say here in Canada, to the lab.
		It says K slash M next to his name.
		We found two people in Los Alamos who say that he was a technician out there, and I can buy that.
		The newspaper article about him and the jet car, and I don't doubt that he drove a jet car.
		I've talked to people who verified that as well as a newspaper article.
		But the newspaper article said he worked out at the Clinton D. Anderson, and it's probably a longer name than this, Maison Research Facility.
		It's slightly different from that.
		I checked out there.
		They didn't remember him, but that's not too surprising.
		It's a user facility, at least the popular often.
		A thousand people a year go through there.
		Groups from all over the world come.
		They use their rather special accelerators.
		You set up equipment, and eventually you get time on the machine.
		That would certainly put your name in the phone book if you were there long enough.
		So he doesn't belong to any professional groups, as far as we can tell.
		And I've checked the American Physical Society, the American Nuclear Society, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and there were a couple of others.
		But anyway, so there's no evidence at all from anybody that Bob ever attended MIT or Caltech or Cal State Northridge.
		The government wiping out his records, well, again, they don't go running and pick up all the yearbooks.
		Where are his copies of his diplomas?
		Where is a resume?
		You know, there's just no indication that he is a scientist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I find intriguing, Mr. Friedman, is that you, as an obviously very thorough researcher, you've just documented that, and George Knapp, also a very thorough researcher, both come to separate conclusions on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's quite remarkable.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, my kicker here is that it's like I'm more accustomed, I guess, to dealing with people who misrepresent themselves than George is, to some extent, because I go back a dozen years at finding fraudulent people whose claims included some truth.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There was a guy who claimed to be an aerospace engineer and suddenly shows up with the degree in physics, and I checked his employer, I checked the school that he supposedly got it from, and to make a long story short, I found that he wasn't telling the truth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you at least have to hold out the possibility, I suppose, that his claim would be accurate and somehow was erased, virtually erased.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't see how they could erase him outside of the government enclave.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But they would lie, that governments can keep secrets about what he might have done for them anywhere at any time.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you hold out, Mr. Friedman, that the government is covering up the UFO reality?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you see, there's no question about that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And in every lecture, and the one that I'll give there in Vegas on, what is it, October the 2nd at the West Charleston branch of the library, and I gather the tickets are all gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All gone, long gone.
unidentified		Yeah.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I will prove that there's a cosmic watergate.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		There's no, you see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold the cosmic watergate, Don.
		We've got to take a quick station identification.
		We'll be right back.
		Stanton Friedman, my guest from Canada.
		We'll get back to it in just a moment.
unidentified		We'll get back to it in just a moment.
		From Jackie Gonzal Pleasant downtown.
		This is KDW in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening from Las Vegas.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Area 2000.
		My guest is Stanton T. Friedman, author, lecturer, nuclear physicist, here all the way from, actually it's Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada.
		And so now back to him, Mr. Friedman, you still there?
unidentified		I'm still here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you'll be here in Las Vegas lecturing then?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's at the beginning of a tour that's going to last five weeks, 16 talks.
		I hope I'm up to it.
		I'm not as young as I used to be for this sort of thing.
		Lots of colleges, management clubs, even two planetarium lectures and a library conference or two.
		It's going to be a busy time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My point was that with your belief that the government is covering up all of this with regard to UFOs, that in itself is so incredible that they could keep successfully such a secret that I just wonder why you're so hesitant to believe that a more minor matter like Bob Lazar couldn't be taken care of.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the kicker is, again, nothing I've said means that there aren't any saucers being held at Area 51.
		That's not what I'm saying.
		What I'm saying is if Bob isn't Telling the truth about himself.
		And you know, he's a very convincing kind of guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He is, of course.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, but let's face it, he went into a major bankruptcy, like $300,000, but other people owed him.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's how convincing he is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that too.
unidentified		That was back in 1986, I guess.
		He came to eat people out of a lot of money.
		Every con man is sincere, consequent woman, speak in trade.
		That isn't enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the fact that you had a bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean that it was through some sort of, or that it was a result of some sort of con or anything else.
		Let's talk a little bit about the cosmic Watergate.
		What is that, first of all?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a neat phrase.
		It shows you how old I am.
		I actually remember Watergate.
		I've been to 15 different archives, the various presidential libraries and the National Archives and the Library of Congress and a lot of other places where government documents are stored.
		I worked on classified programs for 14 years.
		I visited many facilities other than the ones at which I directly was employed.
		And so I have a pretty good handle.
		I wrote a lot of classified reports, as a matter of fact, on nuclear airplanes and nuclear rockets and nuclear power plants for space, and even did some looking at Soviet capabilities on what might be called intelligence work.
		I've got a pretty good handle on how security works.
		I had to help keep secrets.
		What I do in my lectures is prove that there is a cover-up by going through this little routine.
		A group of us called Citizens Against UFO Secrecy went after the CIA for their UFO information back in the late 70s.
		They said they didn't have any.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do too.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		We do not.
		We went to court eventually when they denied having any.
		And the judge asked them to do a search.
		And they came back with 900 pages of UFO materials.
		Now, it was clearly only the tip of the iceberg, and they have a long history of throw you a bone and hope you'll go away.
		The mind control worked, for example, first release was 400 pages.
		John Marks, the lawyer who went after that stuff, wound up with 40,000 pages.
		The first release was 1% of what he eventually got.
		Anyway, in the 900 pages, there was nothing above secret.
		Now, I've seen loads of formerly top secret material at almost all the archives, so that alone makes one suspicious.
		There were internal references to another 200 documents.
		They weren't there, which certainly makes one suspicious.
		But of most interest was the fact that they gave us a list of 57 UFO documents originating with other agencies and therefore releasable only by those other agencies.
		Army, Navy, Air Force, Defense Intelligence Agency, Department of State.
		Everybody's brother was collecting data on flying saucers.
		But the most interesting, at least on the surface, appeared to be, a list of 18 documents from the National Security Agency, the NSA.
		And I found that half of the people in my American lecture audiences have never heard of the NSA, but its annual black budget, it's the biggest of the intelligence agencies.
		A black budget is one not under congressional control.
		Its annual black budget has been seriously estimated as $10 billion.
		Now, that's the Washington Post and Tim Weiner, who is stuck two with surprises for investigative journalism.
		So these aren't top-of-the-head comments.
		Washington Post says they employ 160,000 people.
		Anyway, 18 UFO documents from the NSA.
		We naturally filed a Freedom of Information request for those.
		They get back a page and a half letter saying we can't tell you anything under public law.
		We can't release any information about sources and methods of intelligence work.
		We don't want those.
		We just want the UFO stuff.
		We can't give you anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Mr. Friedman, while we're on that subject, the Justice Department apparently has just successfully sealed the records away from public view and away from the Freedom of Information Act with regard to WACO.
		If they can do that with regard to WACO, it seems to me on a secret basis they can put anything they want away.
		And I just refuse to believe that this Freedom of Information Act accomplishes anything serious.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It gives you access to peripheral material.
		There's a list of exclusions that is a page-long list for each of the agencies, certainly the CIA and the FBI, because I have those lists, which include National Security and Privacy Act and all kinds of other things.
		Freedom of information is not the magic key, but it does give you some stuff that proves there's a cover-up.
		That was the point of my story, which I haven't finished yet.
		Namely, we then go after the 18 NSA UFO documents.
		They refuse to release them.
		We appeal.
		They deny.
		We go to court.
		Judge says do a search.
		This is first federal Judge Gerhard Gisel, who was later Oliver North's judge not too long ago.
		Anyway, ask them to do a search.
		They come back to court.
		We know about 18 NSA UFO documents.
		How many UFO documents did you find, gentlemen?
		239, Your Honor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		79 originate with other agencies, including 23 from the dear old CIA.
		That leaves 160.
		They got rid of four as being not really appropriate.
		Fine, we'll take the 156.
		Gentlemen, you're not hearing us.
		National Security, we can't give you anything.
		We're going around in crazy circles here, so we try a legal ploy.
		It's been done before.
		We ask that they submit the 156 NSA UFO documents to Judge Dissell so he can determine whether they are properly invoking national security.
		They absolutely refuse to show any, not one of those 156 NSA UFO documents to Judge Gissell.
		But they do provide him with a 21-page top-secret plus affidavit in chambers, in cameras, they say.
		Our lawyer doesn't get to see this document, justifying the withholding of the 156 NSA UFO documents.
unidentified		Wow.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		The judge was so impressed that he found in their favor they should not release the document, saying that the public interest in disclosure is far outweighed by the potential danger to the security of the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is incredible.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Should this information be released?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he put that on paper?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes.
		He not only put it on paper, but we even went a step farther.
		We appealed to the Federal Court of Appeals.
		Free judge tribunal normally takes two months.
		They got to look at the same darn affidavit, and they agreed with the lower court that information should not be released.
		We tried to go to the Supreme Court.
		They wouldn't hear the case.
		We filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the affidavit.
		We got it.
		And at every lecture, I turn the pages so people can see that it's 75% blacked out.
		There's no question about NSA withholding 156 UFO documents, even from a federal court judge who, minds you, had to get a special clearance to see the affidavit, which is top-secret plus.
		Now, we don't know what the plus is because that's blacked out.
		But there's a footnote to the story, which is kind of amusing.
		Naturally, I went after the CIA 23 UFO documents that the NSA found.
		They're supposed to respond within 10 working days to a freedom of information request.
		It took them 35 months to respond.
		I think that means they worked 15 minutes a day or something.
		But anyway, they agreed to release the first nine, which got me very excited until I looked at them.
		They were press abstracts, believe it or not, of Eastern European newspaper articles about flying sausages, which the Russians had the day they were published.
		Their own 14 documents on this small group that the NSA found, they refused to release.
		They tried to discourage me from appealing.
		I appealed anyway.
		Two years later, total of five years, they agreed to release tiny portions of three of the 14 documents.
		On a couple of those pages, you can read eight words.
		The security markings are blacked out.
		Exciting words like back reference, state, USSR.
unidentified		That's it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And there are some pages, it's kind of funny.
		These guys get a sense of humor.
		It says deny in total.
		They couldn't even find eight words to release.
		So anybody who says that there are no agencies of the United States government withholding any information about transfers and raising negatively or craft represents any kind.
unidentified		It simply made the joke.
		They make a woman who with the price.
		They're withholding the true book.
		So the title of information is not to always refince that people have been feeling for the fact.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But while it doesn't give you something, the chance does not give you access, and the government treats it, I won't say it as a joke, but the average time, for example, for mandatory classification review of documents at the Truman and Eisenhower Library by the National Security Council, the average time is running three years, and sometimes it takes six years to get a response.
		And you don't know what you're asking for.
		One of the funny things here is that you get a box of documents that say the Eisenhower Library, and there'll be three withdrawal sheets in it, on each of which are listed 12 different documents which have been withheld for reasons of national security.
		And the listing is so brief, memo, Joe Smith, Tom Jones, July 29th, two pages, top secret.
		Now, that doesn't tell you much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems to me, though, you have proven something very important, and that is that there is an overriding stated national security reason enough for a judge or a couple of few judges to agree not to let this information out, and that is significant.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think it's very significant, and I think for those people who are naive enough to think that governments can't keep secrets, that total black budget that I mentioned, and the book that I was talking about by the Pulitzer Prize-winning author is Blank Check, by Tim Weiner, now working for the New York Times, I guess, in the Washington, as a Washington reporter, investigative journalist.
		He documents a total annual black budget of $34 billion.
		That's an awful lot of money every year for projects that Congress doesn't control, about half for technology and half for intelligence.
		The Stealth Fighter, for example, was developed in a black program they built, what was it, 56 before they admitted the program even existed, having spent several billion dollars.
		And I stress this because I found that many Americans are terribly naive about secrecy.
		They forget that the Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb involved well over 50,000 people in one aspect or another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was held.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And it was held.
		I have talked to loads of old-timers, former military guys, and there's no question, especially from World War II-era people, that secrets could be kept, that there are projects about which we will never hear.
		The people who tell you that there are no secrets are people who aren't familiar with how the system operates.
		Or there's one thing that's taken advantage of, especially around Washington, ego.
		That is to say, if that was happening in this town, I would know about it, say some of these guys.
		And the government takes full advantage of the need to know concept.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm told presidents are only told what they need to know with regard to this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that accurate?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		We talked to a man who was responsible for the morning briefings of President Eisenhower for a considerable period of time at the beginning of his term in early 1953.
		And he said that I didn't have access to everything, especially when he took office.
		Part of that is for an obvious reason.
		Presidents are subjected to questions by journalists.
		They go to press conferences.
		There are times when if they knew something, they might not be able to lie appropriately.
		I mean, I'm not saying politicians can't lie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's a funny thing.
		Of all the presidents we've had, probably one of the most open presidents, no matter how you think of him politically, without a doubt, was Ronald Reagan.
		He's the kind of guy who'd say whatever came to his mind.
		It would just, boom, come out.
		And he made some references to UFOs during his administration, as did Jimmy Carter in the beginning, which, of course, then it didn't go anywhere.
		But Ronald Reagan made a number of interesting references with regard to an invasion in SDI and all the rest of it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Five different times he Made comments about if there were alien intruders, we and the Russians would work together.
		And the press was mystified by this.
		And one of the strange things was that each one was treated out of context.
		Nobody bothered to point out the fifth time that he'd already said this four times.
		He said it at the United Nations, for example.
		He said it to Gorbachev, said it at a conference in Chicago, said it at a high school in Maryland, Fieldson, I think it was, Alston, whatever it is, Maryland.
		Now, Reagan had his own sighting.
		I talked to the pilot while he was a governor in California.
		His pilot, who has, believe it or not, 30,000 hours as a pilot, which is an awful lot of hours.
		That's a huge number of hours of flying, saw it.
		Other guys on board the plane saw it, including Reagan.
		It was at night, a big object that was station keeping with them, and then took off at a very high speed.
		Reagan, on the other hand, don't be fooled.
		The black budget increased more during his time in office than during any other president's time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that's true.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So he was in favor of secrecy.
		And there are loads, that's another thing.
		There are loads of executive orders that are classified.
		A guy with the Congressional Research Service even wrote an article about the secret government complaining because these highly classified orders, which set national policy and things like Vietnam and other such things, involving tens of billions of dollars eventually, were still classified.
		So anybody who's listening, and of course people around Vegas, there are plenty of people there who've worked on classified programs and know about secrecy.
		So to get back to Bob Lazar for a moment, the question isn't, can the government keep secret all kinds of strange activities at Area 51?
		I don't have any qualms at all.
		I mean, I know that they can.
		That doesn't make his story legitimate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've been told by a number of people that they pick a certain type of person to work on these things so that if there ever is a problem, they can, in effect, either make them disappear or give out information about them that would be damaging to them and damage, therefore, the rest of whatever they might have to say.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Let me give you a parallel for Bob's story that the government wiped his records clean.
		One of the things that concerns me over the last year is I've seen more phony baloney stuff, and I even exclude Bob, go out around than I have in many years.
		One of the perpetrators, if you will, of some of the phony baloney stuff is a guy who has gone by at least four different names.
		The one he was on the movie with was Guy Kirkwood.
		Supposedly, and he's a handsome-looking, looks like a fighter pilot.
		He's close on the 60 now, I guess.
		Guy supposedly was an Air Force captain flying jets, F-86s, chasing UFOs, taking pictures of them in the early 1950s.
		That was his job.
		And he comes across, he goes to conferences, and he's been at this since the 60s, mate, telling this story.
		And he was on the Fox Network first show of the season.
		George and I were both on the same show.
		Kirkwood was never an Air Force pilot.
		He admitted that in the late 60s when confronted.
		We got a recent letter from the Air Force.
		His story was total baloney.
		He was not a captain in the Air Force, and he wasn't a pilot in the Air Force.
		And he elaborated, Linda Howe was with me at the time with eight other people, that he flew DC-8s for United, and he'd get us a copy of his DD-214 discharge paper, that is.
		And he also would get us a copy of his Airline Pilot Association certificate.
		Well, okay.
		He couldn't provide the DD-214 because it was in a box of papers which fell off the truck when they moved.
		Now, as any veteran will tell you, that's a crucial paper, and you can always get another copy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No.
		So that was a phony baloney story.
		But I checked a lot farther.
		I checked with the Airline Pilots Association.
		They have a United office.
		It's a union airline.
		You've got to belong to the Union to fly for them.
		Under all four names, they found no record of him.
		We have a tape of a show that he did in the late 60s when he was supposedly flying DC-8 for United when he says he was only rated for single-engine aircraft.
		We checked his FAA license.
		They have different levels of medical examination if you're a commercial pilot versus just a private pilot.
		He didn't have the right one, you know, where you get tested every six months or whatever it is instead of every year.
		Sure.
		The Air Force didn't have any people with no college background.
		He admitted publicly he hadn't been to college at all, who became captains.
		They had some warrant officer pilots.
		You could get by with two years, maybe.
		He said he attended, he graduated from some rather prestigious academy back east.
		He attended there for three months.
		And it goes on and on.
		But he's still taking people for rides.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is.
		Well, you know, that brings up, I guess, then the whole subject of the terrible fights that are going on in the UFO.
		Yeah, you're right.
		And researchers ripping at each other and ripping at each other, and if the central goal is to flush out the real information, it seems awfully damaging.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but you see, there are no qualifications to be, quote, a UFO researcher.
		You read two books, carry your briefcase, and it makes you an instant expert.
		That's why, at least George and my disagreement, we've had letters back and forth.
		I think we're both in it to find the truth.
		We share our information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		That's why I found your disagreement, again, on Bob Lazar to be so remarkable, because you're both very thorough, careful researchers.
		All right, Ms. Friedman, I want to ask you about the crash at Corona, briefly, if I might, because you may have heard George reference, sort of a tantalizing reference to the possibility you might be on to a piece of that.
		What can you tell us?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me back up and say I was the first to start investigating the so-called Roswell incident.
		My book is Crash at Corona, because the town closest, and there's no place right there, people said, well, what street do I get?
		Well, There's no street out in the boonies there.
		It's a little town called Corona, like the Cigar or the Toyota Corona or whatever.
		I started that investigation in 1978.
		We're always, of course, looking for pieces for new witnesses.
		As a matter of fact, I got a new story today.
		No indication of a piece.
		There have been all kinds of claims made that various and sundry people do have pieces or know where they are.
		I am aware of one situation where there is a possibility that the guy is telling the truth.
		He's temporarily relocated.
		I know where he is, so I haven't been unable to truly verify that, but we have made plans just in case of what kind of testing would be done.
		And people think it's easy to determine that something is of extraterrestrial origin.
		That isn't necessarily true at all.
		I mean, my college classmate Carl Sagan in a terrible article in Parade magazine back March 7th talked about finding some element that doesn't occur here.
		Well, that's nonsense.
		It's how it's made.
		It's what its properties are that may very well be different, and our analytical skills may not be that good.
		So you've got to plan to do a lot of different things and hope that you get lucky and find the characteristics which are outside the envelope, so to speak, of things we can make.
		Maybe strength at temperature, for example, certain kinds of electrical or magnetic properties.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Friedman, how likely is it that the physics of some other planet would be so different that some piece of anything that we would find would be unrecognizable in terms of the element table that we know?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, we expect physics to be the same everywhere, but if you go back 100 years on our planet, we didn't know about radioactivity, we didn't know about the nuclear world at all, and a whole bunch of other things.
		We could not, if you'd given somebody, smartest people in the world, even 50 years ago, a chip from one of today's desk computers, they couldn't have analyzed what was in it.
		Our analytical capabilities were simply inadequate to the task.
		If you took a cheap Timex wristwatch back 50 years, people had used it.
		They'd know it was telling time and that it worked by a battery, but could they have built another one?
		No way.
		Not at that time.
		So the physics is going to be the same, but there will be more of it and stuff we don't know.
		I mean, Friedman's law, immodestly proclaimed, technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way.
		The future is not an extrapolation of the past.
		You can know all about light bulbs.
		You'll never come up with a laser.
		It involves very different physics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You didn't know.
		That doesn't mean that it's impossible kind of thing.
		So the whole technological side, now, one good reason for thinking that there are samples of wreckage around.
		When Unsolved Mysteries did their first program on crashed saucers, and it's been repeated since, they had a woman on named Sappho Henderson.
		Her husband was a pilot based at Roswell, which was the home of the only atomic bombing group in the entire world, the 509th.
		Something not usually mentioned by the critics, you see, just a bunch of soldiers with nothing better to do.
		Baloney, they dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and out the Pacific.
		It was our front line of offense, if you will.
		Anyway, the guys from the 509th were handpicked, very special kind of people.
		And the wreckage, I started to say about Pappy Henderson, one of those people.
		Pappy didn't tell his wife Sappho.
		He's dead when we came into the picture.
		That's why I'm talking about his wife.
		She was on the show because he died in the mid-80s.
		Anyway, he told her in 1982 when he saw a newspaper article about this.
		The first book, The Roswell Incident, came out in 1980.
		I was a major contributor to that.
		Bill Moore and I did 95% of the research.
		Anyway, Pappy said after seeing this article in the paper that he'd always wanted to tell her, but he couldn't.
		It was classified, but if it's in the newspaper, now we can tell her.
		He flew some of that wreckage to Wright Field in Ohio, and he saw the body.
		Now, I had that story.
		I located Sappho, because the guy who had the story wouldn't tell me where she was, for Unsolved Mysteries.
		The show ran.
		After the show ran, a friend of hers told her that a mutual friend, a dentist named Krohnschroeder, old friend of Pappy's, not only had been told the story in the late 70s, and I talked to John and got this from him, but in 1979, and this was done on his honor as a former naval officer, never to talk about it, 1979, Pappy pulled a piece of the wreckage out of his pocket and handed it to John, or unfortunately took it back.
		But what I'm saying is GIs pick up souvenirs.
		And we know that the government sort of vacuumed the desert with the phrase that one of the neighbors used.
unidentified		I expect there are pieces out there.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I would very much like to know about them.
		As I say, we've got a plan in place.
		What kind of text the wind would have been?
unidentified		And it's not me, but you'd be at my team member in a detail that if anybody would then tell me about some wreckage, I'd be happy to hear it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Who knows anything about what happened?
unidentified		We know that there are hundreds of people involved.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, two crashes, one near Corona, one out in the plains of St. Augustine, which is roughly 150 miles west, out in the middle of nowhere, frankly.
		If anybody wants to reach me, they can call me.
		And I'm not, people say, what do you give out your numbers for?
unidentified		Don't you know there are a lot of nuts out there?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't hear from lots of nuts.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I get the wrong numbers occasionally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, at your own risk, go right ahead.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It's area code 506-457-0232.
		And I should stress that I'm four hours ahead of Vegas in the Atlantic time zone east of Maine and a mailing address.
		And this is for two purposes.
		If you have a story for me, it's easier for Americans to write through U.S. Post Office box.
		I live in Canada.
		I'm not hiding, and my number's a Canadian number.
		But if you want to contact me by mail to tell me your story, give me some clues.
		And if you want free information, send a self-addressed stamped envelope.
		You'll get a 990-word article on the Cosmic Watergate, among other things.
		Send it to Stan Friedman, Post Office Box 958, Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Maine, and that's M-E, not M-A.
		04730.
		Self-addressed stamped envelope for free information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the zip code again, please?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		04730.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But you won't find me by calling information in Holton because I don't live in Maine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, and I suppose people do that occasionally and say, look, he's hiding.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And also, people have told me that they heard that the CIA chased me out of the country.
unidentified		I see.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		The FBI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sentin Friedman, stand by while we do the news here at the top of the hour, and we will come back, and perhaps you will be willing to take some phone calls.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Stay right there.
		My guest is Stenton Friedman.
		This is Area 2000 from Las Vegas.
		I'm Art Bell, and there'll be more right after the 9 o'clock news.
unidentified		The End From Jackie Gonz Plaza downtown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is KDWN Las Vegas.
unidentified		KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning again.
unidentified		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's make it.
		I'm never going to get that right.
		This is Area 2000 from Las Vegas.
		I'm Art Bell.
		My guest is Stanton Friedman.
		He's with us all the way from Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada.
		Subject UFOs, of course.
		And we're going to get to the telephone lines here in just a moment.
		If you have a question for Mr. Friedman, here are the ways to contact us.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, the number is 383-8255 or 8255.
		Toll-free outside the state, 1-800-338-8255.
		The wildcard direct lines are Area Code 702-385-7214.
		And if you have never called the program at all, we have a first-time caller line, which is Area Code 702-385-7213 or 7213.
		And we'll get to the phones in just a moment.
		Mr. Friedman, are you still there?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		There are a couple of other questions I certainly have for you.
		There's a lot of researchers now that are talking about the possibility of other dimensions as a source of these visits as opposed to travel from another planet.
		And I wonder how you feel about those theories.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Having worked on nuclear fusion and nuclear fission propulsion systems, I recognize that one possible means of coming here, although I haven't the faintest idea of how to do it, is to warp space and time.
		It isn't necessary, though.
		Fusion propulsion, fusion is what goes on in the sun, is capable of getting us to the stars with a little help from some cosmic freeloading, such as we use in all our planetary probes, you know, using the gravitational field of one planet taking over to the next planet.
unidentified		The even theory needs to react on another dimension as the source.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		By the way, it's simply a frimming, and I think some aliens originate, say, in a planet around either Zeta 1 or Zeta 2 reticuli.
unidentified		Two stars in the constellation of reticulum, we've got to go below the equator to see them.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		They're only 37 light years away, which is just down the street.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And they're only about a 20th of a light year apart, which is like 100 times closer to each other.
unidentified		The other than the first star the sun is to the next star.
		And they're billion years earlier than the sun.
		That's better than the only campaign.
		But think like Hemington then, whether they work face in time or use a fusion or something totally unknown, which is the most likely propulsion system.
		It doesn't really change the face, it doesn't look.
		The other dimensions is a kind of compound.
		And a lot of astronomers fall into that box or into that trap.
		They don't know how to get here from there.
		That's nothing about which they have any professional knowledge at all.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So if there were such things, they'd have to go through another dimension, and I don't buy it yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		On another subject, very quickly, and then we'll get the phone lines open.
		The recent Mars Observer mission.
		Boy, there's an awful lot of rumor going on about it, and I wonder what manner of it has reached you or what you can tell us about it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, I got called by a Seattle radio station saying that charges had been made by Richard Hoagland and others that NASA destroyed it to avoid showing them pictures of Mars, and I think that's hogwash.
		I think one has to recognize, if you look back over the history of a space project, there have been loads of failures, things that didn't work.
		Go back to the Roswell days.
		Loads of the 60 or so V-2 rockets that were brought over from Germany didn't work when they were fired.
		They fizzled.
		Our first attempt to put a satellite up went dead on the pad.
		I mean, that's putting it very kindly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're buying the explanation as given?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'm not sure that they know what has happened, but I see no reason to say that it wasn't a foul-up, a mistake.
		Something went wrong.
		What I'm saying is I don't know whether the thing blew up or just went out of commission.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but you think, in other words, natural causes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I think, yeah, natural causes is a strange way to put it if it's a bad transistor.
		But yeah, I think so.
		And I think it's utterly nonsensical to suggest that NASA would sabotage the whole program to avoid doing something which wasn't going to be done for many months.
		It would take three months to circularize the orbit, and they'd do the low-resolution photos first, then the high-resolution.
		I'm not saying that NASA doesn't keep secrets.
		That's not what I'm saying.
		I'm saying I see no evidence whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That this is one of them.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One last question.
		I can't help this, since you're a nuclear physicist.
		The prospect of time travel, Mr. Friedman.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You know, we use those words kind of glibly, time travel, but one of the craziest things about the world as it is is that, as part of what Einstein suggested and has been verified many times since, part of relativity, is that as you get close to the speed of light, which is only 670 million miles an hour, to give you something to compare it to, as you get close to the speed of light, time slows down for the things moving that fast.
		So if you want to go to Zeta Reticuli 37 light years away at 99.9% of the speed of light, it would only take 20 months pilot time.
		Now, if you crank up the engine and go, you know, put her in six gear and go 99.99% of the speed of light, it would only take six months pilot time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, does that include acceleration and deceleration?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, it takes only a year at 1G to get to the speed of light.
		At 2G is half a year.
		So what I'm saying is that's effectively many times faster than the speed of light.
		You go out and come back and marry your granddaughter's best friend and repeat the process.
		It's the gift of immortality.
		For those biblically inclined, that's probably how Methuselah lived 900 years.
		That's good physics.
		It may be lousy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there are a lot of people who would like to ask you questions.
		Our lines are loaded, so let's see what we've got out there.
		Good evening.
		On the first time, call our line.
		You're on the air with Sentin Friedman in Las Vegas.
		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Oceanside.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oceanside, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, go ahead.
unidentified		Hi, Mr. Freeman.
unidentified		I have a question.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		Yeah, the civilian sector is really, really going after the UFOs, crop circles, animal mutations, and abductions.
		Why is it that the government part of this whole thing, especially the Air Force, you know, they had their program for investigating this stuff.
		Why have they totally shut down and you never hear anything about what the government is doing?
		I'll hang up and listen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's recognize that the Air Force Project Blue Book was an unwitting and perhaps very unwitting cover operation for much of its existence.
		It was officially closed down in 1969 as a result of a memo from an Air Force General, Carol Bolander.
		And in Bolander's memo, there's a very provocative statement.
		And this quote will come with anybody who sent that self-addressed envelope.
		You'll get the exact quote.
		He said, reports of UFOs which could affect national security are made in accordance with Joint Army, Navy, Air Force Publication 146 or Air Force Manual 55-11 and are not part of the Blue Book system.
		He repeated that two paragraphs later.
		He said if we close Blue Book, the public won't have a place to report UFO sightings.
		But as previously noted, reports which could affect national security will continue to be made in accordance with established procedures, those two documents.
		When you get those two documents, you find that Blue Book wasn't even on the distribution list for them.
		So the Air Force good data on UFOs never was part of the Blue Book scene and never was made public.
		And people, again, tend to forget that we have a huge organization, the Air Defense Command, that's gone through various names, but North American Air Defense Command, Aerospace Defense Command.
		Anyway, all their data about uncorrelated targets is born classified.
		People put out weekly reports on those.
		They don't say how many times they scrambled jets.
		That data's always been classified.
		So the reason we don't hear about what the government is doing is because what they're doing about flying saucers is classified.
		And some of it, well, in a Canadian document that was top secret at the time it was written, been declassified, I think by mistake, 1950, they said flying saucers are the most classified subject in the United States, even more so than the H-bomb.
		So there's an enormous difference between public reports of things in the sky or landings or whatever and the reports that could affect national security.
		For example, flights down the runway at a sack base where nuclear weapons are stored.
		I would say they could affect national security.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You betcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What, Mr. Friedman, does your government in Canada?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm American, so I've got two governments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, but you're living there, so I suppose technically it's your government in a way.
		What is Canada doing since you're there?
		Does it treat all this identically to the United States?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, not quite.
		On several different levels, there are significant differences.
		One, it is part of the joint Army, Navy, Air Force Publication 146.
		The Air Space Defense Command is a joint Canadian-American project.
		Canada is a bigger country physically than the United States.
		It used to be thought if the Russians were going to attack, they'd be attacking across the top.
		So the Dew line and all that early warning stuff.
unidentified		And so they're part of that on a classified level.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		They do something that isn't done in the United States.
		The National Research Council collects reports of U.S. Unfortunately, they knew nothing with them other than label them as media and non-meteor, and they're only interested in the media.
		There's a lot of good stuff, in other words, In the official files that nobody looks at.
		There isn't quite the same sense of official ridicule.
		I just got Friday a letter in response to a Freedom of Information request for some Air Force office.
		They responded sending along a copy of a 1987 release, which was just a dupe of what they put out when Blue Book was closed in 1969, saying the same outrageous things that were said then.
		One of them, they said out of 12,000 some sightings, only 700 remained unidentified.
		Now, suppose you tried 12,000 drugs to find a cure for AIDS.
		If you found 700 that worked, would you say only 700, therefore there are no cures for AIDS?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it is really exposing the intent in the end statement in the report.
		There's no question about it.
		Ms. Friedman, one other subject.
		Linda Howe, who you're very familiar with, looks very carefully at crop circles and the crop circle phenomenon as well as some other things.
		What do you think of this crop circle business?
		Any comment?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's an exciting, intriguing mystery.
		The question is how much of a connection there is with flying saucers.
		I resist putting all the mysteries in the same box and shaking them up.
		I don't know what's causing them.
		I would like to know.
		I think we tend to lose sight because of the beauty and majesty and frequency of the Crop Circle reports of the fact that there are more than 4,000 physical trace cases directly associated with flying saucers from 65 countries.
		These are cases where people see a saucer on or near the ground, and after it leaves, one finds the equivalent of burned circles, burned marks, swirled vegetation, etc.
		Nothing nearly as exotic as the crop circles.
		And in 24%, something over 1,000 of these cases, beings are seen.
		So these are really the close encounters of the second kind, not the crop circles.
		The crop circles are an intriguing mystery, which may indeed be produced, but I think by aliens, but they could be produced by our own intelligence services.
		I often think of the scenario, you know, there are a lot of reports, and Linda has mentioned some of them, about lights, small lights circling around the crop circle formation.
		Yes.
		And I keep thinking that, gee, I'll bet the aliens sent them down to figure out what are these idiot earthlings doing now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard Line 3, good evening.
		You're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I just need to turn on my radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn it off, actually.
unidentified		Okay, it's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		My question to Mr. Friedman, has he heard of any pilots that have suffered a psychosis from testing that new technology?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Thank you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's separate the question.
		Certainly, there are loads of pilots who have had UFO sightings.
		Dr. Richard Hames, who is retired from NASA Ames Research Lab up in the Bay San Francisco area, has collected more than 3,500 cases of pilot sightings.
		So there's lots of them, and some of them are very good, multiple witness, long duration, electromagnetic effects, compasses, swirling, you know, the whole business.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any physical effects?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, that's what I'm trying to think about other than the psychological problem.
		Well, I'll give you an example.
		A pilot told me that he had a sighting when he was flying an airplane, a helicopter rather, in Vietnam.
		It circled around their helicopter several times, quite spectacular, and he reported it.
		And then the big shot high-ranking officer comes to him a couple days later and said, you didn't see anything the other day, did you?
unidentified		Yes, I did.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I reported.
		You didn't hear me.
		You didn't see anything the other day, did you?
		And they go back and forth, and finally he gets the picture.
		You like flying?
		Yes, sir.
		You didn't see anything, did you?
		And of course, he finally said no.
		Psychological trauma from that.
		But in terms of physiological effects directly associated with observing a flying saucer, not that I'm aware of offhand, bright lights, but I wouldn't call those.
		And fear, there's a famous Iranian jet case where all the offensive systems went off on the F-4 aircraft, American plane, Iranian pilot, chasing a UFO not far from Tehran back in the 70s.
		And I can imagine if all your systems go off, all the electrical systems, there's a strong fear take off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there would be.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but in terms of, you know, just directly because of seeing the saucer, I don't know of it.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line one, you're on the air with Santon Friedman in Las Vegas.
unidentified		Good evening.
		Yes, good evening, Art.
		Good evening, Mr. Friedman.
		I just, I think what that last gentleman was referring to was on a show that was on this last week called The X-Files.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I didn't see it.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		We don't get it up here, unfortunately.
unidentified		Well, what they're saying is with Art Flying Faucet, that the people that fly that are supposed to have ill effect to them.
unidentified		That's apparently the case they had made.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting thought, but I don't know of any evidence for that.
unidentified		And I don't know how you'd find it either.
		May I ask, are you familiar with a document called, I don't even know if it's a document, it's copyrighted 1989.
		And it's called The Secret Government, The Origin, Identity, and Purpose of MJ-12.
		And it was written by a gentleman named Melton William Cooper.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would disagree with calling him a gentleman, but yes.
unidentified		That was my second question because he apparently has references to you in the document.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is under the category of here we go again.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the kicker here is Mr. Cooper tells a great story.
		He's apparently a very good speaker, an evangelical type, I mean, powerful speaker, and I don't deny, I'm not knocking speakers since I'm one myself.
		But in his book, Behold a Horse, I read over the sections dealing with me.
		And for example, I am accused of being a CIA employee.
		And I will categorically state that I have never worked for, with, associated with the CIA or any other government agency, except when I was in college for two weeks in 1952, I worked for the post office, delivering mail in Linden, New Jersey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Colmer, thank you.
		Yes, but if you were a CIA employer, Mr. Friedman, I know I couldn't say that.
		Well, that's right.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		He even misquotes, Cooper even misquotes me greatly about what I said about nuclear airplanes.
		He has me saying it was the size of a basketball and produced hydrogen.
		And the ones I worked on were certainly much larger than that and didn't produce hydrogen, and I never said that.
		Mr. Cooper has claimed he was on the briefing team for the Commander-in-Chief of the Pacific Fleet, which is an interesting claim considering that he was a hydraulics mechanic in the Air Force, switched to the Navy, was an E-6, which is not a high rating, has no college background.
		To say that the Navy in the 70s couldn't find anybody with a better background than that to be part of the briefing team is unimaginable.
		I gave him a list of names of the commander, the sink pack, whatever it's called, commanders, except I sort of mixed them up in order, and he couldn't even pick out the name of the one who was in charge at the time he claims he was there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Friedman, if Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat can shake hands, shouldn't there come a time when all of you UFO investigators get together for the cause and try and reconcile your information and disagree some kind of summit or something?
unidentified		Well, you know, there ought to be some rules of the game.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I agree with that.
unidentified		And there have been people who have disagreed not only John and I, but people have been rapting in the middle of the day.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But of course, before it's appropriate for your show, but really your former ablation experiences were like near-death experiences or like the birth experience, really the other end of that system.
		And Al and I strongly disagreed about that.
		We never said bad words about each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, while we're on the subject of George, I have him on the line, Ms. Friedman.
		George, you're on the line with Stan Friedman.
		Hi, George.
		George, turn your radio off.
		Gotcha.
		You would, and go ahead.
		You're both on the line.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Stan, some of the differences we have, Art, for the benefit of your listeners, Stan had regaled us with how much he had checked into Bob Lazar's background.
		What he did not tell you is that basically he had followed up research that we had already done.
		The fact that there were no records at MIT or Caltech or Los Alamos regarding Bob was the starting point of this mystery.
		I mean, I had already checked that stuff out basically when Stan got involved in it.
		Stan has had a very definite opinion about Bob basically from the beginning, and I think he expressed it fairly well to your listeners earlier when he said Bob is not a nuclear physicist, which the central question to me is not whether Bob has been in a professional organization of physicists or national academic organizations or whatever.
		The central question to me is always, did Bob work on flying saucers or not?
		The question for me boils down to, did he work on classified projects at Los Alamos?
		Because if that were true, it's at least conceivable he could have been brought into classified projects elsewhere.
		Concerning the lab, the Los Alamos National Lab, Stan, and I have it in writing from him, has said, well, Bob may have worked at the Mason facility at Los Alamos, and there are no classified projects that have ever been conducted at Mason.
		That is simply not true.
		The lab has said in writing to me that there are classified projects there.
		What's more, I have four people who worked with Bob at the lab who said that he was, in fact, working on classified projects.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		As a technician, George?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		As a technician slash physicist, I don't really think that the labels matter so much as the question of whether or not he could have been taken from those kind of programs into additional classified programs.
		Now, if he worked there on classified projects, he had to have some sort of a security clearance.
		The plain and simple fact is there are no records of him having a classified security clearance anywhere.
		Even Stan, in writing, had said if Bob were at the lab, even working for Kirchmire, he would have had to have a clearance.
		Every government agency that I have contacted, and there have been several over the years, have denied having any records on Bob.
		In fact, one person that Stan has contacted himself in regard to Bob's bankruptcy, either Stan or some of the people who are working with Stan, confirmed for Stan that Bob was, in fact, working on classified projects.
		Now, some people showed up in Los Alamos with people that asking questions of people that Lazar knew.
		The questions began with this.
		We're looking for dirt on Bob Lazar.
		That's sort of a pejorative money for investigation.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't know why that connected with me.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, I got some feedback that indicated somebody was blaming that on me, and it had nothing to do with me.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me put it this way, Stan, is that in the communications that you and I have had, especially concerning the bankruptcy, which I think, you know, sometimes you go too far, not necessarily you, but investigators, in the sense of how much you can invade a person's privacy.
		As Art was alluding to earlier, because a person has had a bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad person.
		One of the people that was contacted concerning Bob's bankruptcy, one of his major creditors that was listed on the bankruptcy, was a guy who had very bad opinions about Bob and who said bad things about him.
		But one of the things that this same person said was, even though Bob owed him money, was that, yeah, I remember he worked on classified projects.
		My question is, where are Bob's records concerning that security clearance?
		Because the lab denies having them.
		All these government agencies deny having them.
		A second point.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask something.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's go on for just a second.
		Concerning his high school records, you called his high school, and I thought it was very interesting the comments that they gave to you, because if they gave them to you, they were clearly violating all kinds of privacy statutes.
		I called them after you did.
		They categorically denied giving you or anyone else the information that you have claimed or got from them.
		And if they did, they broke the law.
		I've asked Bob to go ahead and request his high school record.
unidentified		Good.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		He has done that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, both of you, hold on just one second.
		We'll be right back.
		You're listening to Area 2000 at the moment.
		George Knapp and Stanton Friedman.
		We'll be right back.
		From Jackie Gonzalez Downtown.
		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Area 2000 continuing on a Sunday evening.
		I'm Art Bell.
		With me on the telephone, George Knapp and Stanton Treatment.
		And you're both back on the air again.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		In addition, Stan, to the high school thing, which they categorically deny telling you or anyone else what you have claimed, and I'm going to get that in writing from them.
		One of the other points that you raised, you had gone to Los Alamos, gave a lecture, and you told me in a letter that someone had come up to you out of the crowd and said that Bob Lazar was a con man.
		Well, I know who that person is.
		I've contacted them.
		I've talked to them.
		And the way they tell the story is they came out of the crowd and were talking to you about Bob sort of after your lecture.
		And they said their version of the story is they said, well, you must believe that Bob's a con man, to which you responded, yeah, that's a good term.
		Not their term, your term.
		But the way you communicated it to me is someone comes out of the audience and says, Bob is con man.
		My point goes back to what I had said in my earlier part of this broadcast, is we have disagreements about Bob.
		That's fine as long as the disagreements are based on honest research and honest differences of opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my observation for both of you is that you both conclude that nobody can find his records.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The difference seems to be in your conclusion about why.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, the question I have here, if Bob has degrees from MIT and Caltech, where is there any evidence of that at all?
		Well, if he doesn't, then that means he's intentionally, I guess is the word, misrepresenting his background.
		Well, that means there aren't saucers out at Area 51, and I've never said that there weren't out there.
		I don't know whether there are or aren't.
		But why should it be up to me to prove that he has degrees from two of the most prestigious universities in the country?
		And why would anybody accept the notion that they can go, that the government can wipe out his yearbook pictures, his memory of what went on there, any indication that he was there?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I'll put it this way again.
		I think the central question is not whether Bob went to a school or not, if he is lying about his educational background.
		And I have admitted, Stan, even in your presence and in public appearances, that I find this to be the weakest part of Bob's story.
		I've never caught him in a lie.
		I've never caught him in an inconsistency, but I have been bothered by the lack of documentation on that.
		But Bob would not be the first person who has exaggerated his educational background in whatever field.
		The question to me is not whether he went to Caltech or MIT.
		The question is not whether he, what he did or what classified project he worked on at Los Alamos.
		The question to me is, did he work on flying saucers?
		And if he worked on classified projects at Los Alamos, which at least four people who work there now have told me is a fact, it is conceivable to me that he could have been taken into other kinds of classified projects here in Nevada.
		And that's a central question.
		Not whether he's a real physicist, not whether he, what school he went to, did he work on this program.
		The fact is that what Bob's story tells us is confirmed by many, many other witnesses who I have interviewed over the years, who are still talking to me.
		In fact, the story is consistent.
		The facts are consistent.
		That is a central question, not what school he went to.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		But, George, his credibility is the central question, it seems to me.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a central question to you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a major part of the story simply because there have been over the years so many other people who mix truth and fiction.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I know, and you should be intimately familiar with them, Stan.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I will raise the name of Gerald Anderson, the primary new witness in your book, Crash at Corona, a person who you based a great deal of your book on concerning the Roswell crash, and who turns out to be basically bogus.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Not quite, George.
		That's a long story.
		And I don't know whether you've seen the papers I've written about, in effect, the crash without Gerald Anderson, and it wasn't the crash at Corona.
		Well, okay, that's the title of the book, but it's the other crash that he was concerned with.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I gave you a plug there, by the way.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I understood.
		Appreciate the plug.
		I wish only the publisher was alive and well in some books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, to the both of you, I say again, wouldn't it be valuable somehow to get some of this scrapping out of the way between researchers for the sake of the whole subject?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I agree, Art, as well.
		And Stan and I have gone around on this a little bit.
		We haven't talked in a little while.
		I think it's generally healthy.
		I don't think it's healthy when there is deception or not really a fair shake given in the research.
		Now, maybe Stan is not responsible for some of the things that I'm talking about, but I know that some of the people who are asking questions about Lazar are reporting directly to him.
		They've represented themselves as Bob's friends.
		You know, one guy showed up at Bob's high school, so I'm his buddy.
		I'm trying to get his records to help him.
		The high school kicked him out, which is what they should have done.
		They refused to give out information about Bob's high school records to him, and I seriously doubt that they gave him the stance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about it, Stan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you had people out knocking on doors for you?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I have not.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Now, I will add something that I had wanted to talk to George for the last two weeks about was to get him to get Bob to write the high school for his records.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm delighted.
unidentified		That's what I wanted to ask you about two weeks ago, George.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, let's leave it there.
		And thank you, George, for calling in.
		I wanted to get some more of that on the air.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead and talk to you later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care, George.
		So there you go, Stanton.
		Again, it seems as though both of you agree that the records are missing.
		You simply come to different conclusions about what it means.
		Let's keep moving.
		Wildcard Line 3, you're on the air in Las Vegas with Stanton Friedman.
		Good evening.
tony in palm springs ▲ ● ▼		Yes, good.
		I hope you can clear this up.
		In the 60s on television, I heard an ad-lib conversation between Ed McMahon and Johnny Carson.
		And he, Ed McMahon, said he was stationed at that base and that he was in a bus going on leave with all the other fellows.
		And they came upon Wolf's confusion.
		And I've forgotten whether he said he saw, I'm sure he didn't say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What base was this at?
tony in palm springs ▲ ● ▼		Janet Marshall?
		Yes.
		And the lights of the traffic jam and so on.
		And the next day, he didn't get out of the boat.
		The next day, he and his friends went back to take pictures.
		And they were taking pictures of this giant crater.
		And I don't believe they mentioned anything about, this is so long ago, did they mention anything about debris?
		But the military came and took the film away from us.
		Now, he wasn't joking, and it was just a conversation between guests coming on, and he just was shaking his head and said, I don't know what was going on.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Now, did he use the term flying saucer, or you have to?
tony in palm springs ▲ ● ▼		They were talking about that subject, and I understand that in the 60s, that's the first I'd ever heard of such a thing.
		And they were talking about flying saucers, apparently.
		I'd forgotten how the whole thing started even.
		It was so long ago.
		But he did say, yes, I was stationed there, and we came upon this in the bus and saw it.
		And then they went back the next day, and there was a giant crater in the earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tony, where are you now?
tony in palm springs ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Palm Springs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Palm Springs.
		All right, thank you.
		Any.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no report of a crater associated with either the corona or the planes of St. Augustine crashes.
		No crates.
		As a matter of fact, one of the things that mystified, George mentioned, Jesse Martel Jr., who spoke at the Springfield conference.
		Jesse's a medical doctor, a pilot, serves on military aircraft accident investigative teams.
		His description of the wreckage is very important because he himself was shot down, as a matter of fact.
		He's familiar with wreckage.
		But one of the things that mystified his father, who was the intelligence officer for the only atomic bombing group in the world at the time, when he came across all this wreckage that led to it by the rancher out near Corona, was that there wasn't a crater.
		Here's this stuff strewn across an area three-quarters of a mile long and a few hundred yards wide.
		And there's no crater, so it had to be some kind of an airborne explosion of some sort, but no crater, no crater at the other place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's odd.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what that story refers to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe she caught that on the Carson show on satellite, you know, and she, during one of the commercial breaks, they made a comment.
		She may have caught it that way.
		Line two, good evening.
		You're on the air with Sentin Friedman.
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Friedman claims that the MJ-12 documents are authentic, but articles published in the Skeptical Inquirer magazine claims that the MJ-12 documents are authentic.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Hardly, hardly.
		I have responded to those articles.
		Anybody who sends for a free list of materials of one of the documents on there is a 108-page report.
		As a matter of fact, I even collected $1,000 from the man who wrote the two articles in The Skeptical Inquirer about MJ-12 for proving him wrong about the type on one of the Majestic 12 documents.
		For our reader's information, in 1984, December, a man received a roll of film on which were two sets of eight negatives each of a top-secret magic M-A-J I scene, not G. I's only document, a briefing for President-elect Eisenhower, dated 18 November 1952.
		So he was a president-elect.
		That was before he was inaugurated, after he was elected, which had claimed that the government established in 1947, President Truman established a group called Operation Majestic 12 to deal with the crash flying saucers and recovered near Roswell, New Mexico.
		And it listed the members of the group, and it's a whole long involved story, which is discussed.
unidentified		So you claim that the alleged memorandum from President Truman to Secretary of Defense Forrestal of September 1947 was not typed on a typewriter model that didn't exist in 1947.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And I also pointed out that the date on there, one of those obscure little details, September 24th, 1947, period, this period after the date.
		And the word September is slightly lower than the numbers.
		The numbers are higher, if you will.
		And they were clearly done in a different typewriter from the date.
		And that typeface matches that on a memo from one of the people who were mentioned in the memo, Dr. Vannevar Bush, who was the top scientific person in the country during World War II and for some time afterward.
		He was over the atomic bomb project, for example.
unidentified		Well, what about the alleged signature of Harry Truman on the 47th document that is shown to be an exact duplicate of one of Truman's papers, which is an impossibility because no two signatures of an individual are ever exactly?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a matter of fact, Even that quote, which is given in the article from a book by a man named Osborne on question documents, which is listed as 1978, it was actually written before 1910 and was dealing with trace forgeries, which were a major problem before we had Xerox machines.
		Even the quote, two lines later, says, that book says, that you can have identical signatures.
		And Truman certainly wrote his name a lot.
		After the 1948 election, which he won to some people's great surprise, he wrote thank-you notes, and he wrote a letter to his sister saying that he was signing about $500 an hour.
		Now, nobody has established that there are no other pairs of signatures that are identical.
		The expert, Osborne, that you can get identical signatures, but not consecutively.
		So, you know, there is no substance to those articles.
		They're dealt with at considerable length in several of my papers.
		And as I say, I got paid $1,000 for proving the skeptic wrong about the types on the third document, the Cutler Twining memo.
		So it's easy to be a debunker.
		There are three basic rules.
		Don't bother me with the facts.
		My mind's made up.
		What the public doesn't know, I'm not going to tell them.
		And if you can't attack the data, attack the people.
		And this works extremely well in all fields.
		You don't need to know anything.
unidentified		Well, how do you explain that the dates used on the 1952 Eisenhower briefing document are written in this strange and mistaken style that William Moore used in his own course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, stop all it there.
		Thank you.
		Go ahead and respond to that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, the date format in the briefing is indeed a little unusual.
		18 November, 1952.
		It's the comma that bothers some people.
		I have found that identical format used by two directors of the CIA, and they're members of MJ-12 in around the same time frame.
		It's not that unusual a date format.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Let's hold it there then, Sam.
		We've got a first-time caller here.
		Where are you calling from, please?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from Berkeley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're on the air, and do you want an address?
		Is that it?
		Okay, stay off the air.
		No, you're on the air, and you have no choice.
		If you want to ask a question, you're going to have to be on the air, or I'm going to have to disconnect.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I do have a couple of questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead and ask them.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, go ahead, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
unidentified		Well, I don't know if it has anything to do with UFOs or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wanted an address, is the note I got.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's where I like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want an address for my guest?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		All right.
		Go ahead, Stan.
		Give it out again.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Okay, send a self-address stamped envelope for free information to Sam Friedman Post Office Box 958 Holton, H-O-U-L-T-O-N, Maine, M-E, 04730.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And a phone number are 506-457-0232.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've got it.
		Good.
		Let's keep moving.
		Line three, good evening.
		You're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
unidentified		Good evening.
		I had a couple of questions concerning the topics on the show.
		One's UFO question, one physics.
		I'd like to see your opinion of your opinion of the Pope diary story and of Alabel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm glad you asked about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's start with the...
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I read the story with interest, obviously, because if it's a legitimate story, it's very important.
		It's pretty dynamic stuff, to say the least, as you know.
		I at best put it in my gray basket.
		The world isn't black or white in my viewpoint.
		It's maybe most of the time, it's gray.
		And I was struck that the tone of many parts of the article reflected that what I see in Weekly World News, where we have authorities say it was 100% authentic, but they didn't mention the authorities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What?
		Did you see the face in Mars picture from the weekly?
		Yeah, there's a good example.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		How about Hillary Clinton holding an alien baby, too?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was good.
unidentified		Yeah.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		So it's with that authoritative sense, and I have trouble, you know, cleaning room and finding the Pope's diary in a little used room at the Vatican.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I want something much more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but you're parts of that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		You know, forget the alien invaders routine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you're following up on this, aren't you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You sent it to the Vatican.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I've got a guy who was going to the Vatican, a scientist, an outstanding scientist, as a matter of fact, and was interested in UFOs.
		And so I'm hoping that he will get a chance to check it out.
		There is a name given in it.
		I forget Giuseppe D'Angelo, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something like that.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And we're going to check on that as the first place to start.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Well, we'll look for a follow-up to that.
		And I've now forgotten the second part of his question.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I've forgotten it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that makes two of us.
		Well, maybe it'll occur to me here.
		Wildcard line three, you're on the air with Satan Friedman.
		Good evening.
		Good evening.
		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Francisco.
		Turn your radio off, please.
		I did.
		All right, good.
		Go right ahead.
unidentified		I'd like to ask Professor Friedman.
		Mr. Mr. Friedman.
		I'm of the opinion that mathematically, when you consider everything, it's inevitable that there are extraterrestrials in the area.
		But if theoretically, it seems to me that these people would have a vested interest in traveling in shrinking time.
		In other words, in order to be here, it makes sense that they would have to be living in the future.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand that.
unidentified		Why do you say that?
unidentified		Because theoretically, you can't go past.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand that.
		I don't understand that.
		If you're coming from 37 light years away and you're capable of going close to the speed of light, it doesn't take that long to get here.
unidentified		But all you can do is shrink time down to a minute fraction.
unidentified		But still, any amount of time, by the nature of time, they still have to be in the future.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand that at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't either.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I can't get any physics around that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you, Caller, for the try.
		Anyway, line three, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman in Las Vegas, Heights.
unidentified		Hey, I recently, one of my friends told me really vaguely about a case called Guardian.
unidentified		And I was going to embellish on that, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Guardian.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a strange situation in Ontario, Canada, where there were witnesses that came forth about a sighting, or at least a videotape came forward with all kinds of strange, what do I call it, conspirational kind of paperwork.
		And then a witness was found whose description of a saucer coming down visible from their farm out in a rural area matched this videotape.
		And the confusion is that, you know, the tape was sent anonymously and the name, the guy's name used, or the person's name, I don't know if it was man or woman, was Guardian.
		And so Unsolved Mysteries and one of the other news magazine sort of shows showed the footage.
		I've talked to one of the major researchers, Dr. Bruce McAbee, an optical physicist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And a guest on my show a couple of weeks ago.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I consider Bruce one of the top researchers in the world, frankly, and a man of complete integrity.
		He's very impressed with the footage and how difficult it would be to fake it.
		And nobody, I haven't heard anybody say that they were impressed with the Guardian material.
		So it's got this strange situation of interesting footage in lousy stories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, glad to get your comment.
		On the first time, caller line, you're on the air in the spent treatment.
		Good evening.
		Good evening.
		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm calling from Palm Springs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, turn your radio off.
unidentified		Yes, I will.
unidentified		Just please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Everybody remember to do that.
		We have a delay system.
unidentified		Pleasure.
unidentified		I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I wanted to ask him about men in black.
		These are people who appear to those who have had UFO experiences, perhaps the day after or a few hours after.
		Sometimes they wear Air Force uniforms.
		Sometimes they simply are in black suits.
		And does he believe they exist?
		And who are they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We've heard much about the men in black, Mr. Friedman.
		What do you know about them?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I had a men in black experience.
		I think the notion has been way overstated by a man named John Keel, who made a big deal about men in black experiences.
		But in all my years of listening to people tell me about their sightings, and I've been interested for 30, what, 35 years and lecturing for 26, so I hear a lot of stories.
		I think I've had two legitimate men in black stories, and I don't know who these guys are.
		My story, which some people would play up into something big, I was at a conference in Oklahoma City.
		People heard me the first day of Saturday.
		They called where I was staying, asked if they could take me out to lunch the next day.
		I said, fine.
		They show up in a big black Cadillac, and they were all wearing black suits.
		And we had a very pleasant lunch, and it turns out they always rent black Cadillacs.
		They always wear black suits, and they took me back, and nothing happened of any strangeness at all, other than somebody might have made a lot of imagination about that story.
		So I don't rate it high on the list of significant aspects of the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Time is short.
		Line one, you're on the air in Las Vegas with Stanton Friedman, who's up in Canada.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hi, good evening, Mr. Friedman.
		Hi.
		In your capacity as an interesting signature, and putting aside your differences as far as processing out of touch with that, I wonder if you could comment on his explanation about Armet 115 and its use as an energy source for producing extremely strong gravity fields.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Interesting theoretical construct.
		I have no reason for saying anybody here on this planet has ever handled any 115.
		We've certainly never made any.
		We Earthlings.
		Most of the story really comes out of a Scientific American article back several years ago where it is talked about the existence of stable elements with very high atomic numbers.
		And there's been some changes in ideas about that since.
		So it's one of those things that uses a lot of fancy language.
		But again, I've never found any physicist who says that he buys the notion in my gray basket at best, I guess I would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your gray basket must be very full.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It's overloaded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		All right.
		Good evening.
		On the first time, call our line.
		You're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
		Where are you calling from, please?
		I'm calling from Eugene, Oregon.
		All right.
		Turn your radio off, sir, and go ahead.
unidentified		Turn the radio off, Ralph.
		Turn your radio off, sir.
		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we going to get it off?
unidentified		It's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly, Mr. Friedman, by the way, I've met some of the people that you've spoken about at some of the various meetings.
unidentified		And comment particularly about the men and brackets.
		Are you familiar with Blue Brass's book in 1956?
		Of course.
		Yes, Roy knew too much about flying saucers for the listeners that haven't heard of it.
		Would you speak momentarily about that, sir?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Just as I said earlier, I don't consider this an important part of the story, that some people have been threatened, sometimes by phonies, people trying to get information.
		There are some UFO investigators, as George and Knapp and I would certainly agree, who resort to all kinds of tactics, intimidation or otherwise.
		But I can't make a big deal out of the they knew too much.
		And there's been several other articles that dealt with this sort of thing.
		But Gray was a great collector, not so much an investigator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Line two, good evening.
		You're On the air with Stanton Friedman.
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
unidentified		I've got a question for Mr. Freeman.
		Bob Lazar, there is a tape out by a company here, and they want quite a bit of money for a video.
		It was on one of your shows last year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		The Bob Lazar story.
		It's quite expensive, and I'm kind of a skeptic on it.
		Can you elaborate on that?
		Is it worth getting, or is it a lot of hearsay?
		I'll listen off the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen it, first of all?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have seen it.
		And I was actually, I kind of enjoyed parts of it because Bob comes across well.
		He's not holier than now.
		He's not an elitist.
		He doesn't talk down the people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, he's very retiring in a lot of ways.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And I appreciate that.
		I mean, I like to communicate in terms people can understand, not to try to sell myself as somebody who can use $10 words.
		So I appreciate all that.
		On the other hand, I must say that I didn't find the tape from my putting on my physics hat as opposed to my ufological hat, I didn't find his explanation for how the thing works very convincingly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The gravity amplifiers.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, using element 115.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, the folding of space, which is one of the same things you mentioned a little earlier.
unidentified		Yeah, and that so that all you've got to do is accelerate protons.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a big deal, not a little deal.
		And he said the things weren't connected, which I couldn't make any sense out of.
		So, again, it's gray basket.
		There's no way to verify that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've hardly got any time left, and too many people who want to talk to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly, line three, you're on the air with Stanton Friedman.
unidentified		I'm thinking of Al Bielick.
unidentified		How did it work?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		That was it.
		Very quickly, because we're about out of time.
		Al Bielick.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Let's listen to Al Bielick.
		I do not think he was reborn as a different person than that he got a Ph.D. from Harvard as Cameron in 1939.
		I think it's a bony baloney story.
unidentified		You don't think?
unidentified		Amphibrians.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, you know, we've just made it in a plan.
		We could go into this ambassador for hours, but we can't.
		So I'm going to thank you as a guest, and you've been a great one.
		I've got to say that.
		It's been very kind of with you, and I've enjoyed it very much.
unidentified		My pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So hopefully someday you'll come back, and we'll do it again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious, would you like the opportunity to be on the hour with Sam Lazar?
unidentified		Sure.
		I agreed to meet him four years ago.
		He wasn't there.
		Well, maybe we can get that on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Start Friedman, thank you.
unidentified		Hi, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, and I'm afraid everybody rattles if the clock is the clap.
unidentified		We've got to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll be back once again next Sunday evening at 8 o'clock with more Area 2000, 8 to 10 o'clock right here.
		I'm our ball.
		Good evening.
		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
		Area Code 702-456-1606.
		Ask for Angela Thompson.
		That's Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And be with us next Sunday evening at 8 for another edition of Area 2000.

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