George Knapp, investigative journalist turned UFO researcher, traces his career shift from 1987’s MJ-12 leaks and John Lear’s revelations, despite initial skepticism and backlash. He defends Bob Lazar’s credibility, citing Soviet satellite photos from 1988 showing saucer-like objects near Area 51’s alleged hangars, suggesting a deliberate cover-up. Knapp explores animal mutilations—like the 1989 Arkansas case with a square-cut cow and missing embryo sac—and links them to UFO sightings, dismissing fringe theories. Callers discuss time travel, abduction warnings, and Project Blue Book’s PR efforts, while Knapp speculates on androids or hybrid entities observing humanity without clear intent. Ultimately, the episode frames UFO phenomena as evidence of an unknown intelligence—whether extraterrestrial, interdimensional, or machine—interacting with Earth in ways science and religion struggle to explain. [Automatically generated summary]
This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
And now, Area 2000.
Good evening, everybody.
Welcome to Area 2000.
Good evening.
I'm Mark Bell.
It's going to be kind of a fun night tonight.
We're going to have our usual report from Angela Thompson, and we're going to reverse order this evening because our guest for the entire evening is going to be George Knapp.
And I've very much been looking forward to this.
He, of course, provides us with a regular report at the beginning of most of the Area 2000 shows.
He's been investigating the UFO phenomenon now for years and actually is considered to be one of the, in fact, I guess he is considered to be the leading journalist who's been looking into the UFO phenomenon.
So, I wish you, I bid you all a good evening on behalf of the Bigelow Foundation, and let's go all the way to Philadelphia for a glimpse at yet another reality.
Well, tonight, I thought what I'd do would be to give you an update on animal mutilation before you go into the full interview with George, which would be fun.
I have a very interesting mutilation update from a place called Vendor, Arkansas, which is about 50 miles southeast of Eureka Springs.
On Wednesday, September 1, about a month and a half ago, cattle farmer Mark Ewing checked all his cows, and they were well, including one of his two-year-old pregnant cows.
The next day, on September 2, Ewing went as usual to feed the herd, and the cows ran away from him as if spooked by something that he could not see.
And that night, there was a huge thunderstorm, and Mr. Ewing's daughter, Kathy Royce, who lived about 400 yards from her father's farmhouse, said that she heard a very strange sound like the roar of an ocean in that storm.
Then, on Saturday morning, September 4th, Mr. Ewing found 20 feet of his electrical wire missing from the fence that he kept around his cattle in the cattle pasture.
While trying to find the missing wire, he could see that his pregnant two-year-old cow was lying in an odd manner with her right legs folded under her and her left leg sticking straight out, he said, as if something dropped her straight down in her tracks.
Mr. Ewing had six dogs with him that ran ahead to the cow before he got there and they began sniffing her body.
Suddenly, all six dogs began barking and yelping as if frightened by something Mr. Ewing could not see.
All six dogs ran from the cow back to the house 200 yards away and remained agitated for the next three days.
And I thought of the charits in southern England when I was there in August that I reported earlier in Area 2000 where he had two steer mutilations and a couple of days in and around those mutilations, his cows went into a panic and stampeded against him and scared the English farmer.
Mr. Ewing said that before he could get to the cow with the dogs running past him, that he felt suddenly like he should not go to where the animal lay, and he turned around and he went back home without investigating the cow and said he didn't really understand his own actions.
And it took him about three and a half hours to decide that he had to go and look at the cow.
So about 6.30 or 7 o'clock in the evening on Saturday, September 4th, he did go and he was shocked at what he found.
The first thing that he noticed was that the unborn calf, a portion of its face, was protruding an inch or so from out of the vagina, but he could see that the cow and the calf were both dead.
There was a very similar case in Alabama earlier this year in January where the Fifth Police Department and others investigated a cow that was dead and mutilated.
The udder had been removed and the calf was also partially out of the vaginal opening and also dead and mutilated.
Well, Mr. Ewing, when he further checked, could see the typical, the jaw had been stripped on the left side, and there was a hole, a strange smell hole underneath the vaginal opening.
And he called the sheriff's office when the deputy came out and they had reported.
And when the deputy got there and it was morning on Sunday, the deputy wrote in his report that he was looking at cuts with sharp instruments on an animal in which the hole underneath the vaginal opening was a square.
And Mr. Ewing was surprised that it had changed shape from the night before because it had been round and smaller.
And when the deputy came, it was square and larger.
And they discovered that the calf was now completely removed, and yet they could find no evidence of the embryo sac, the umbilical cord, the calf.
There was no fluid, there was nothing.
And the pregnant cow was now, her stomach was flat abnormally so.
The deputy officially listed this as cut with a sharp instrument cuts that were smooth, and the deputy noted that there was an absence of blood in these excisions.
Now, they did check for bullets or stab wounds.
They did not find any, and while they were looking, They discovered that the tongue was removed in the throat, but that the eyes and the ears were completely in place.
There were no signs of struggle around the cow, even though the ground was damp from the rain.
It was as if the animal had simply dropped in her tracks.
One interesting thing that happened after they had found this animal was that Mr. Ewing's son-in-law, Mr. Royce, who lives nearby, a few nights later was coming home and saw a huge, unidentified, he said, ball of light that was lighting up the entire side of a mountain near their home.
From it, he could see two beams of light coming from the huge ball of light as if they were searchlights searching the ground from approximately treetop level.
The son-in-law said that the light, he saw it around 1 a.m. on September 19th, and that he watched it for at least 10 to 15 minutes, but no one else in his family was there to see this large light with these beams coming out of it.
Investigators in that Arkansas area have now checked with other neighbors to see if anyone has had any other mutilation reports or heard or saw anything unusual that first week or two in September.
And so far, no one has outside of the son-in-law and then Mr. Ewing's mutilation case.
But subsequent to this, there has been now a report, apparently, of a dog mutilation in that area.
And investigators are trying to see if they could get some photographs.
And I bring this up for any of the listeners in your own local areas who may have heard about any unusual happenings with animals.
I would appreciate being notified either through our bell in Area 2000 or directly to my address because this is the kind of phenomenon that you don't hear about in national news.
In this case, this very unusual story that has so many facets to it would not have reached me or anyone if one reporter in a very small newspaper did two or three lines about the fact that Mr. Ewing had lost his account.
And then when the case was investigated, it turns out that it has all of these highly strange facets to it.
So this is the only way we can keep up with this strange phenomenon on that.
Linda, you know, if you push aside the UFO connection for just a moment with all of these mutilations and you simply try to consider what terrestrial phenomenon or motive or persons might be doing this, what are you able to produce in terms of ideas about what might be doing this if it's not UFO related?
Well, this goes back to the documentary I did 14 years ago, A Strange Harvest, in which I talked with law enforcement about all sorts of things ranging from the satanic cult hypothesis to the possibility of the government carrying on some kind of an environmental contamination experiment.
When you get down to the fact that in the pathology examinations of tissues on now over 30 animals that we've been able to look at under a microscope and you find that the hemoglobin has been cooked at the excision sites, you know automatically you're separating out the cases from disease and from predator.
And when it comes to the issue of satanic cults, why would a satanic cult and even how would they have the resources to carry on a global, this is a worldwide phenomenon for 30 years at least going back to the 60s being able to get in and out of sandy sandbars and snow and wet ground without leaving a track and leave these animals in the strange,
bizarre fashion that I just described should happen in Arkansas in September and do so with some kind of equipment that could exercise tissue with high heat and smaller portable roadmaps that it would go about 500 pounds and these are taking the people to set up.
unidentified
And they demand large amounts of volume on size portable and not all of the laws.
Right from the very beginning of that horse in southern Colorado that made the newspapers globally as snippy the horse, when in fact it was a female horse named Lady, the reporter got the name wrong and the press wrong at the time,
but there had been so many sightings of strange lights, round discs, small, steady winged things that people said looked like little tiny airplanes zooming around in the San Luis Valley of southern Colorado, but they didn't know what they were,
that when this horse was found, stripped of flesh from the neck up, and no tracks around it in the dusty southern Colorado ground in September of 67, and that the closest tracks to the horse's body were about 100 yards away where the horse itself, you could see that the hoods had gone prancing around in some kind of a frantic circle, and there was evidence of heat on one of the bushes near this horse's body.
Everything was highly strange, never explained, and the headlines themselves said, quote unquote, did a UFO zap this horse in Colorado?
So right from the beginning, there was an association with odd things in the sky and these strange animal deaths.
And throughout the decades, there has always been some kind of a connection to orange lights or bizarre lights or what a lot of people have said look like the searchlights from helicopters coming down in pastures where they later found mutilated animals.
So when I began as a TV reporter working on this story 14 years ago and doing a documentary about it, first, I was not thinking in terms of the UFO phenomenon or anything that was non-terrestrial at the time.
I began with the idea that I was getting into some kind of an environmental contamination story.
No, I had no association with any of this high strangeness material at all in my life.
I was focused entirely in science and medicine and environmental issues, which I thought this was one issue.
But it was the interviews with the sheriffs and the deputies and the fellow journalists and the few veterinarians who would talk with me off the record who told me off the record all of their encounters with these bizarre, strange lights.
And when we talk on, again, I think on November 7th, I can go into that in more depth for you.
But I was a journalist working in science, medicine, the environment long before I did A Strange Harvest.
And A Strange Harvest was a documentary that I did 14 years ago.
And since then, I have done many other documentaries and done many other investigations on issues that have related to all kinds of other subjects.
But I think that these phenomenon of animal mutilations and human abductions, the quad circle phenomenon, all of this that I'm calling glimpses of other realities are something that we should be paying a great deal more attention to because the implications for our planet could be something in the future that we have underestimated.
That's Linda Howe and her glimpse into another reality.
And isn't that something?
I never realized that Linda came to her present field of interest and its relationship to UFOs through other scientific research.
And as I said that, I think that lends more credibility to what she's doing.
All right, onward.
George Knapp is an award-winning investigative reporter whose previous documentaries on the UFO topic are considered to be among the best ever produced.
His UFO investigations have been honored by UPI, that's United Press International, Associated Press, and the Fund for UFO Research.
In 1989, Knapp first broadcast allegations by controversial physicist Bob Lazar concerning secret programs in the Nevada desert.
Those allegations attracted worldwide attention.
Knapp earned a master's degree in communications from the University of the Pacific, where he also taught public speaking and coached the debate team.
He's taught communications and journalism at other colleges, including the University of California at Berkeley, Cal Poly Loyola University, and UNLV.
Currently, George is senior vice president at Altamira Communications in Las Vegas, Nevada, where he is producing a multi-part comprehensive UFO documentary series, including research obtained from his March 1993 fact-finding trip to Russia.
You all know him.
He does a report here weekly, and it's high time that we had him as a guest.
And yes, you will be able to ask George questions very shortly.
So let us go.
And strangely enough, I had to come from Perump, Nevada to Las Vegas to do the program.
George has gone from Las Vegas to where he's spending, I guess, the night in Perump, Nevada.
Well, it's jumped all over the map before I got into journalism, as you mentioned.
I did some teaching and debate coaching and things of that nature, ended up in Las Vegas almost in a whim and weaseled my way into television and into news.
Traditional, that would be a good way to describe my approach to news.
I mean, I did all the stories that investigative reporters do, worked a lot on organized crime stuff, a lot of political corruption and political coverage, the legislature, all of those sorts of things.
So I was very much grounded in the basics of journalism and had never really given any thought to UFOs until 1977.
Who, you know, he taught me a lot of what I know and taught me the basics about the ethics of journalism, and I learned a lot from him.
And it was coincidental is that because Ned was not interested in UFOs, is why I did get interested.
In 1987, a guy named John Lear came walking into the TV station, and John had been an important source of Ned's on a story about stealth technology.
Ned broke that story before any other reporter in the country had it, and I think John was partially responsible for the information that led to the story.
Well, John came into the station with the MJ-12 documents and a pile of other UFO-related material and was trying to sell Ned on getting interested in it.
And I think, you know, I have the same kind of attitude that most people have about UFOs in those days.
I mean, it's interesting, but show me something.
The MJ-12 documents were intriguing at that point.
I didn't know if they were real or not.
The other material that John opened up to me was even more interesting.
And I'll have to say this at this point, that John and I part ways on a great number of issues and controversies in the UFO area.
He believes a lot of stuff that I don't necessarily think is supportable, but he was definitely instrumental in getting me going into the field and opened up his files.
And for that reason, I guess I'll owe him a debt of gratitude.
Anyway, it didn't take very long, didn't take long at all to realize after reviewing some of the material that was available, some of the books, some of the documents, some of the really credible people who were out there working on it, that there really is a body of information concerning UFOs and the alien presence, alien for want, lack of a better term, to indicate that it's real.
And I just couldn't believe after seeing some of the material that other mainstream journalists had not taken a fair and serious look at the topic.
It started with having John come on this little public affairs program I did called On the Record.
It's a show that, you know, you have a politician one week and somebody's trying to sell a book the next week.
And basically no one watches it.
You know, it's a small, dedicated audience.
Well, John came on, and all of a sudden my phone started lighting up.
I had him on again, and the public response was incredible.
People were obviously hungry for this sort of information.
And it occurred to me that this seems to touch something with the public pulse.
And the more I did on it, the more response I got from the public, which also made it curious to me why other mainstream journalists would not take a fair look at it, because, after all, ratings are part of the business.
And this is something I've observed doing shows on it over the years, George.
There is more interest in this than I think the average person can imagine.
Surely the anchors who laugh it off as the final story generally in a newscast, if there's something to be said, I don't think they understand how much real interest, significant interest, mainstream interest, there is out there.
Well, they wouldn't unless they did something serious on it because, you know, I travel around all over the world and there is an innate sense among regular people everywhere that this is real.
Now, they don't fully understand what it is, but they know something's going on.
Something's going on with the planet.
There's some kind of other intelligence that's interacting with us.
It's almost a subconscious kind of an understanding.
And people in the public eye, the news anchors who stop, they're going to have to get the message sooner or later because it's real.
It's out there, and regular people all over the world know it.
Well, I guess there was quite a bit of damage in one sense.
It damaged me with my colleagues who, and I've talked to Linda Howe about this before as well.
You know, you can do all the stories in the world about organized crime and corruption and things like that and win this award and get this person fired and do whatever.
But when you tackle something like this, suddenly you're not the same person anymore, and it's hard to figure out why.
With my colleagues, I think there was a lot of damage.
But with the people that counted, the viewing audience, the general public, it was a big fluff.
There were a lot of sny comments made at the newspapers here in Las Vegas.
He's a man who has, in a way, sacrificed a mainstream career to begin looking into something that all of you, I know, find fascinating, the world of UFOs.
With all of the investigation you've done from then when you began until now, are you, and I ask everybody this, are you convinced, absolutely convinced, that we are being visited?
Now, whether that is absolute truth, that everything that he said he saw is real and true and out there, I don't know.
I mean, even Bob will admit that there were some games played with his mind by these people, that the folks who are running this program are experts in disinformation, that they may have ulterior motives in dealing with it.
But I know that the story that Bob told me the first time I met him is the same story he's telling today.
A lot of it checks out.
Now, there are gaps.
There's no question about it.
Things which cannot be documented.
There are things in his story which do not make sense.
But there is too much information, too much circumstantial, too much corroborative information about what he has said that checks out to simply dismiss it.
I guess the fun thing, the cool thing to say in UFO circles these days is that it's all some sort of a disinformation plot, and a lot of people believe that Bob is part of that plot.
I can tell you flat out, categorically, that that is not the case.
Bob may have been used to some extent, but I believe that he is telling the truth about what he saw out there.
In general, like I said, it got cool to say it's all disinformation.
There was one very prominent UFO publication that sent some people out to the Rachel get-together a couple of months ago, and the article generally focused on Bob, the fact that he drove up in a Corvette and that he was wearing a white turtleneck and he had his latest female flame on his arm and he had a Hollywood hairdo, those sorts of things.
Of course, the mainstream press has been even nastier.
You know, it's amazing to me, after we did our stories, the series in 1989, everyone took potshots at it, but none of the other media here in Nevada were willing to send a reporter 80 miles up the road to check this stuff out.
It doesn't make any sense, especially the RJ, which has been the most vehement critic about this stuff.
The first time I ever heard or read the rumors about alien technology at Area 51, it was reported just as that.
A rumor in an RJ story about the military land seizure around Groom Lake.
It's interesting to me that they felt it was sufficiently interesting to throw it into a story that there's a rumor about alien technology, but Warner didn't find it sufficiently interesting to actually assign a reporter to it and check it out.
There's a little bulletin called the Secrecy in Government Bulletin that comes out.
It's published by the Federation of American Scientists, and they don't deal with the UFO topic so much, but they do deal with all kinds of government secrecy issues.
And one of the things their most recent issue got replaced is Star Wars production making upwards like the topic for Star Wars to get further front of a current article that talks about professional access programs.
They have actual written rules, written regulations that specify what can and cannot be done in disinformation campaigns.
And speaking of things I would like to see, tell the audience, again, if you would, please, about a picture that you had possession of for a while here.
Let me set it up this way, is that Bob Lazar, for those who don't know, had said that he worked at an area designated S4 on the Tapu's Dry Lake Bed, which is just a few miles south of the Groom Dry Lake Bed.
He said that there were hangars built into the side of a mountain adjacent to this dry lake bed, that inside these hangars were alien saucer discs, one of which he saw fly.
He says that the physics involved in the propulsion system is not of Earth origin.
And it's been one heck of a struggle to try to prove that what Bob is saying is true.
And I can tell you this, two people that I know with high-level security clearances have been to the Papua area in the last three months, and both say that they flew over this area.
There are no hangars, there are no saucers, there are no indications there has ever been anything there, if what Bob is saying is true.
NOAA's pilots referred to it as the box, because if you fly into that area, your butt is in trouble.
Anyway, it's been difficult to prove that there was anything ever going on there.
One of my sources who was out there was told there'd never been any programs at Papua, and in fact, that the dry lake bed was still so contaminated from radioactive tests years ago that nothing could go on there, which is just an absolute pack of baloney.
There aren't that many hotspots still out at the Nevada test site, and I now have documentation to prove that.
Anyway, a company in California associated with a movie studio that wants to produce a story about Bob Lazar's life and experiences at Papua sprung for Soviet satellite photos.
And they went back to 1988, bought this photo at a fairly exorbitant price to zero in on the Papua Lake area to see what they could see.
The photo that I was shown shows, it's a flying saucer art.
I mean, there's no other way to describe it.
It's a big, fat flying saucer caught in the air flying over Papua Lake.
It was analyzed by some folks who formerly worked for NASA.
I am told that additional analysis is being done on the photos.
Additional photos are trying to be obtained.
And that not only this disc is caught in the air, but that there are roads leading into the area where Bob Lazar said hangars were, that black buses are parked outside.
And what it would suggest is Bob was telling the truth, and somebody has destroyed the hangars, moved the equipment, and tried to cover it up.
And I suspect that if the photos had been touched up and somebody wanted to prove that, it's a very simple matter because I know the date of the photo was taken, and anybody could go to the Russians if they want to pony up the box and get their own copy and see if it was phony.
Because that might be another way to confirm, George.
You could literally, if you have the name of the satellite, the Russian satellite that took the photograph, you could look at orbital tracks and determine that on that day and that time it was in that area.
It's interesting also that the Russians were taking regular photos of that area out there on an ongoing basis before May of 1989.
They'd do one a month, two a month, something like that.
After May of 1989, all of a sudden, the Russians started taking photos like crazy.
Now, along with the photos, they will give you a list of all the photos that they have, all the times and dates of when they took snapshots of that area.
And before May of 1989, they'd take one or two here and there.
After May of 1989, they were taking them basically every day.
What happened in May of 1989 is that was Bob Lazar's first appearance on KLAS-TV.
Well, it could be, but, you know, Bob had suggested that the Russians were in on that program at one point, that some kind of a discovery was made at some point, at least that's what we've been told, and the Russians were booted out.
Well, as Linda Howell has said to me in interviews, you know, you have to have a context in which to view this story.
People talk, documents leak, books are written.
But unless you have the proper context to evaluate it, it doesn't mean anything in a person's day-to-day life.
This is a non-secret secret.
I mean, enough people have talked about it.
There's enough information out there.
For example, a journalist like myself who wants to take the time to look at it can't help but come away persuaded that this is really going on, that there really is a cover-up on it.
Yeah, but isn't it a little like the Kennedy conspiracy in the sense that there actually is so much that's been said about it, so much, that if the truth suddenly came out, if George Knapp had the truth in his hand and he came out and had a big press conference and told the world, it would be just one more theory on the pile of theories.
And, you know, when we did the documentary, the best evidence, and the series actually that led to the documentary, it sort of brought things home for the local audience in a way that I don't think, like, for example, a national expose could do.
People see this stuff on television all the time.
They see the X-Files, they see unsolved mysteries, and they tend to, I think, equate some of these kinds of revelations with the movie of the week.
Well, that's very interesting, and then go back to wait up for Letterman or something.
The fact that they saw this on local news with personalities and reporters involved who were known to them, who had been in their living rooms and they knew lived among them, sort of made a difference.
And I think that had a lot to deal with with why that program had such an impact here.
I think a lot of the material in that is, I don't want to say passe, it's still interesting, but so much has gone under the bridge since then, and so much has changed, and so much new information has come to light that.
I work for the company called Alpamira, and they've basically given me the green light to produce what I hope will be the most comprehensive series of these UFO documentaries ever done.
I mean, soup to nuts, beginning with an overview of the whole phenomenon, all the different aspects of it, zeroing in on the cover-up issue in a more comprehensive way than has ever been done anywhere.
Abductions would be its own separate topic, the crop circles, the whole ball of wax, all in one big series.
We are currently editing the third of those programs, and I think it's about the best stuff I've ever done on this topic and maybe on anything, because it's important to put it in a format that people will take seriously.
We poke fun at some of the aspects of it as well, and I think that's only natural.
I'm really, really jazzed about this.
We've been working really hard.
We've been traveling all over, have interviews with basically all of the knowledgeable people in this field, to try to separate the wheat from the chaff.
We're leaving out some of the crazies, the zanies, the conspiracy buffs, and the zealots, and getting down to the heart of the matter.
We're going to market it on television as well as through a couple of other venues, but mainly through television.
We're constructing the programs in a way that if there was broadcast interest, and there already has been some, it wouldn't be hard to put it into that sort of a format.
But mainly it's to go directly into the homes, because I think it's the kind of thing that people should have in their homes.
It's that important.
It shouldn't be the kind of thing that you switch the channel and then you don't think about anymore.
And then the things are so packed, like your show, Art.
I mean, it's so packed, you've got to kind of listen to it more than once.
Well, I guess we would have called it basically psychic research years ago.
All of a sudden, the remote viewing term started coming into popular use a few years ago.
My own interest in it was really peaked with the trip to Russia.
You know, like I said, I'm more of a nuts and bolts guy.
Show me a document, show me a witness, that sort of thing, show me a craft, and tried to stay away from more of the esoteric topics, channeling, automatic writing, those things, because I didn't always see the direct connection to UFOs until this Russia trip.
We dealt with a general over there who reports directly to the Russian equivalent of Colin Powell.
His boss is the number one guy in the Russian Ministry of Defense, and he runs a program that, for want of a better term, it deals with remote viewing.
He prefers the term enhanced human potential.
It's kind of a roundabout way until it gets hooked up to UFOs, but he, in essence, teaches regular people, it says everyone has this ability to some extent, teaches regular people to tap into a universal conscience.
Call it the force, if you want, if you're a fan of George Lucas.
But by tapping into this thing, you get into contact with, he claims, and his disciples claim on a regular basis some sort of alien intelligence.
You also enhance your own intelligence and human abilities.
I saw training films used by the Russian Ministry of Defense, by the Russian military, by Russia's KGB and police agencies in which these techniques are applied, and it'll just knock your socks off.
For example, they would take some Navy cadets down into the bottom of a ship.
They leave them there for a couple of days in a window, bring them up to a map room, and then say, locate all the targets located within 50 miles of here, and they would do it with 70% accuracy.
We'd take Air Force cadets, put them in a plane, fly them over these fields where targets are camouflaged, and say, find the targets and tell us what's under the camouflage.
They would put them in a room and have them target practice with handguns, things of that nature, turn off all the lights, and then let them still be hitting the target.
That's what the Russians are saying, in that as part of this enhanced human conscious capability, you tap into this universal consciousness that other beings are tapped into as well.
Now, some of it gets very, very strange, and I have trouble in dealing with some of it, but I had to keep reminding myself just who I am dealing with here.
This is a top, top Russian general who reports directly to the top of their military.
They take it seriously.
They're training their troops and officers With these techniques, and it was just flat amazing.
Now, we have a program like that as well that is not as far along.
I know this because the man who, in essence, oversees its budget, is a friend of mine and is an important contact of mine.
He's also somebody that's very interested in UMOs.
The remote viewers that we have, employed by the United States government, working on the synagogue program, have also encountered aliens of beings, have had communications with alien beings and other kinds of entities themselves.
They have also had the same kinds of enhanced human capabilities where they could project their confidence around the world and people could be able to project forces.
I've always thought the brain has more capacity than we know about.
But now that the connection that they're finding, that is absolutely incredible.
And I wonder if it might be true that the condition that you put yourself in to be able to remotely view is the same condition that opens you to the possibility of this contact.
I know there is a physical regimen involved in this.
The Russians at least don't want their subjects to eat meat, but apparently, once you get involved in this training, you don't want to eat meat anyway.
There's no alcohol, no cigarettes, no drugs of any sort can be consumed.
But I guess after you're into it for a while, you don't want to do any of that stuff anyway.
I know that the difference between the American program and the Russian program is the Americans are dealing with people who already had demonstrated psychic abilities, whereas the Russians specifically went out and found average people who had no such experiences, or at least none they'd ever demonstrated before.
In essence, they want to prove that it's possible for everyone to do it.
And I'll tell you this, when we got back from Russia, I told my friend in Washington about my Russian contacts.
He knew that the program existed, but had no access to it.
We set up a meeting between Washington and their friends in Moscow, and now they have reached an agreement to have joint research on this program so that the Russians can share with us what we know and we can share with them what we got the evidence.
Well, there is a lot of it, but you've got to realize what they're coming out of.
You know, some of the ultimate debunkers over here in America have already been setting themselves up so they can dismiss anything that comes out of Russia by saying, well, those Russians are crazy.
They're all into psychic stuff and ghosts.
You can't believe anything they say because you believe them less than you believe the Americans.
And he actually went to Russia and debunked a button from a bunch of Russians who were claiming a remote viewing capability.
And I think there was one Russian who claimed that he could raise the blood pressure or heartbeat of an individual or change that individual's brain waves.
And as I watched that, I thought, you know, it is pretty simple to debunk.
It's easier to debunk, it seems to me, than to do almost anything else.
And it's sad, like I said, that these people would be blanketly dismissing anything that might come out of Russia before they even know what it is, but that's exactly what they're doing.
It's too bad that they have stolen the word skeptics and skepticism because it means a lot, something much different from how it's been twisted.
It's not that just you don't believe.
They refuse to believe, and it doesn't matter what evidence you could show them.
Well, I think that's where the phenomenon is heading.
In dealing with people like Bud Hopkins and Linda and Dr. John Mack of Harvard at sea, that seems to be where it is heading.
It seems like this other intelligence, whatever it is, wherever it's from, keeps raising the stakes.
Used to be just lights in the sky, and then it was craft, and then craft that landed, and then humanoid-like features.
And all of a sudden, we started having interaction, reported on sporadic bases, like Freddie and Barney Hill.
Now, the stakes have been up.
This is happening to a lot of people, a lot of people who are not making this stuff up.
A lot of people who really are physically missing, who have physical indications that something really happened to them, whose lives are messed up by what happens to them, and who tell their stories at great personal risk.
I really do believe that that is where the phenomenon is heading.
It's not our choice.
It's the choice of whoever's on the other side calling the shot.
But I suspect that, as you suggested when we first started talking about these, is that with such incredible technology these days to do this and that with graphics and computer technology that I'm not sure any picture of any nature would convince people that hypnotic regression as a tool.
I think it's very valuable.
A couple of points that Bud always makes is 25 to 30 percent of the cases he deals with, these people remember this information without hypnotic regression.
Obviously, there have been abuses over the years, but I've sat in on a couple of these sessions.
John Carpenter came out to Nevada at our behest several months ago and did some work with a Nevada family that's been going through absolute hell with some kind of an alien presence for a long time.
I watched his technique, and although the critics will say that hypnotists, hypnotherapists lead the witnesses to certain conclusions, it is completely the opposite of what Carpenter did.
He would, for example, use questions about assuming that it's a disc-shaped craft, he would ask the people, look around in the corners, tell me what you see in the corners as they're under hypnosis.
Well, that's the genuine confabulation incident.
If somebody was making this stuff up in their head, they would make something up that they would see in a corner.
The UFO abductee, who was in a disc-shaped craft, gets a puzzled look on their face, looks around, and can't see any corners.
That sort of a thing.
Every step that he took, at least in the sessions that I sat in, led the witnesses away from the standard scenario of an abduction as opposed to leading them toward it.
I mean, there's far too many witnesses who have seen anomalous aerial phenomena in association with the formation of these things.
In addition, the kinds of changes that are occurring in the plants and in the soil are things that I'm not quite sure we have the technology to do.
I also know from speaking with other researchers who are far more involved with this topic than I am, at least as far as the crop circles go, that there is intense government intelligence agency interest in this subject.
Several of these researchers have been approached, have been offered bribes, have been threatened, in essence, by people who want to be able to control the flow of information about the crop circles.
It seems like whatever intelligence is behind this phenomenon is sending a message that can't be easily brushed away by government intelligence agencies.
They're trying to send a message.
I don't think we understand exactly what it is yet.
Perhaps it's some sort of a subconscious level that can't be swept away like a document can or a witness can.
It'd be like trying to sweep away the crab nebula.
Well, it sounds very familiar with a lot of the cases that people like Bud Hopkins have been digging up.
What you are describing sounds very Close to a missing time experience where one minute you're somewhere and the next minute you're somewhere else.
A lot of times these happen in cars where people suddenly find themselves at their destination either really late or really early and don't remember how they got there.
Also, what you're describing is more than one experience, which, as we're learning more about this phenomenon, seems to be how it goes.
It's not chance encounters that people have.
People are followed.
Families are followed, often for generations, by whatever intelligence we're dealing with.
I sympathize with the weirdness of your experience.
The only consolation I can give you is that there are a lot of other people who have gone through the same thing.
unidentified
Oh, I mean, it really don't bother me what happened.
You know, I'm starting to think about this new world order and all.
You know, I think that, you know, I'm starting to think that maybe, you know, they're trying to change our mind in order for these people to take over the universe and do a little out of time because they got plenty of time.
George, you know, there are a number of UFO researchers, and I won't name them, who seem to have almost branched out from the UFO phenomenon, perhaps through the cover-up aspect of it, into the New World Order business.
I try to keep an open mind on just about everything.
I don't want to shut something out just because it sounds weird.
Why they make the connection in a lot of cases is because they're profiteers or because they're right-wing fanatics, full-types, who are trying to draw attention to themselves, or they have a religious agenda that they want to pursue, or they just want attention.
I have seen no compelling evidence of any kind of a new world order threat.
I'm open to it if someone's got it.
You know, the trilateralists and the Council of Foreign Relations and the Bilderbergers and the Illuminati and the Jason Society, and you've got any number of conspiracy theories.
Some, at least a few of these researchers, have tried to tile them into, you know, the mother of all conspiracy theories, and they're all involved with the aliens.
I just don't see a compelling case for that.
Now, there may be some other political agenda that's going on.
I certainly believe that there is collaboration between certain governments on a UFO cover-up, but I don't see any plot to have the New World Order, the One World Government to put us all in concentration camps.
And I certainly don't see any evidence that we've got secret treaties with aliens.
There may have been communication at some point.
I find that entirely possible.
But aliens, if that's what you want to call them, don't need our permission, for example, to go ahead and abduct people because we couldn't stop them, but they wanted to.
I frequently ask my guests this, and I will ask it of you because it's such a good question.
If you had conclusive, incontrovertible evidence that they are here and you could prove it, I mean, you just could go on television and lay it out and prove it, would you do it?
But are there not, George, occasionally times, I mean, if you had this evidence and the government came to you and said, look, we know you're about to blow this, but listen, here are the reasons why you shouldn't, and laid out some,
no doubt, national security matters or laid out several studies to you that would show that psychologically the American public would not be ready for it and it would cause great social disruption.
I mean, I don't want to say absolutely, because there are a few absolute rights.
I guess they would have to make it off in case you have to remember dealing with the government, so they don't have a whole heck of a lot of credibility with me or with a lot of other people to begin with.
It would have to be an awfully persuasive case, and I would not say absolutely that I would not go along with it, though, no.
The same way as I was watching a thing on television the other day Where they were working with gorillas and stuff like this and with blinds and going in and taking samples and doing stuff like this.
And it might be the same way that they're just doing zoological research on us as another entity.
But the other part was you were talking about remote viewing.
What do you know about this guy by the name of Al Bielick that was talking about a lot of the same things that you're talking about?
I don't know a great deal about the Philadelphia Experiment or the Montauk Project.
Just tangential information.
I think it's an interesting topic, and it certainly has a UFO connection.
But if you're asking me, is Al Bielick a credible guy?
I have no indication of otherwise.
Whether or not the Montauk project is real or the Philadelphia experiment really happened, I really would be reluctant to say.
As far as the abduction question, the comparison to animal research, that's a fair comparison because what a lot of the abductees are reporting is, you know, the taking of physical samples, scoops of flesh, sperm and ovum samples, and that's the sort of thing that we do with less intelligent species.
But after speaking to folks like David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins and John Mack, it seems to be something else that they're looking for, some sort of an interaction with our species.
Something that we have that they can't duplicate in the laboratory.
A lot of people, John Carpenter included, have suggested it has something to do with the human soul.
You know, the abductees, a lot of them are reporting having hybrid...
I think John has picked up tidbits here and there from Bob Lazar and others and maybe has gone his own way with it.
But the discussion of the interest in the soul is not only new with John, Whitley Streeber has suggested that he felt the visitors were interested in the soul.
Dr. John Mack has said something similar, that we have something that they need and they want some sort of an ongoing relationship.
Perhaps even they're hoping that if we're going to kill ourselves, blow ourselves up, or poison our planet, that something human or humanoid, human-like will survive.
I am right now reading a fascinating book by a guy named Mark Davenport.
It's called Visitors from Time, The Secrets of the UFOs, in which this guy analyzes UFO sightings, UFO phenomenon over the years.
And it's a very persuasive case that the technology being exhibited by these craft is a time travel technology as opposed to just what we would call a propulsion system.
That's also fairly consistent with what Bob Lazar has said, that part of the research that was going on out there was dealing with time travel.
Good evening on the Wild Card Line 2, I guess it is.
You're on the air with George Knapp.
unidentified
Yes, good evening, Aunt, and good evening, Mr. Knapp.
Good evening.
I'm very reluctant to undergo a hypnosis, but I heard an occurrence which has terminated recurring dreams, and I would willingly undergo it to see if my interpretation was right.
Was there ever, time will not permit my relating the entire thing, was there ever a colony here on Earth in the accounts that you listened to upon occasion, which was abandoned, and there are descendants on the Earth here and now of that original colony from extraterrestrials.
And they are now returning and warning certain people of a coming catastrophe.
Bun Hopkins refers to these kinds of apocalyptic visions as alien editorials.
He's not entirely convinced that what the aliens are describing or in many cases graphically illustrating to the abductees is actually going to happen, as opposed to they're trying to give us a message that you better clean up your act.
As for the ancient civilization, of course I've heard it.
I wish I could answer your question about whether it's true or not, because it would answer a lot of the feelings.
unidentified
Well, I understand our experience, the atmosphere is now hostile to them, and they'll be suited when they come back, but nothing like the Calc Monato, an astronaut or an underwater or anything like that.
Well, you know, what we've been hearing, and I think what I discussed last week, Art, is that again and again there seems to be some kind of a growing sense of urgency as I travel around the country and speaking not only to researchers, but just members of the general public.
Abductees are getting messages.
Regular people have got a real uneasy sense that something is happening.
Clearly, there are changes occurring in our planet.
The crop circles, people like Colin Andrews, who are doing research on that, feel that whatever something or another thing happened.
unidentified
When I wanted further information, I assumed it was Mayo that was communicating with me, only the visor across the eyes, only a very narrow from temple to temple.
Seemed to be an energy emanating from him.
That there was no time he had to communicate with others, and that was it.
Well, it's hard to separate it because, again, I try to be the blank slate and listen to what people say and try to separate truth from fiction, but I keep hearing it over and over again from people whose opinions I really respect.
So whether or not I feel it myself or whether I've just heard it so many times, I don't know.
I'm reluctant to give too much credence to these predictions because as you and I have spoken many times, we hear them over and over again, and it just doesn't seem like any of them come true.
What about the proposition, George, that they're getting us ready for this information, that all these programs on television, and they are abundant these days about this sort of thing, are preparing us mentally?
Well, I know that there have been a couple of times when they have seen these odd aerial things flying over the circles, whether or not they've seen one actually made.
I haven't seen that tape.
I know I've seen a video of it.
unidentified
Yeah, look into the crop circles segment that they have them in search of, and toward the end there, they say that they caught one being made and that they're analyzing the film footage.
No, they didn't suggest because they didn't want to say anything until they knew for sure.
Also, you were asking earlier about what UFOs and the New World government had in common.
Yes.
Well, this is just a theory.
I don't know for sure, but supposedly a lot of people believe that Christ came from, since the Virgin Mary was, they think she was implanted by an alien.
And since the New World government is supposed to be just before the recoming of Christ, so I think there's something there.
I know, but I'll tell you right now, George, if the saucer came down and they walked out and they weren't in front of the White House or some other relatively safe area, somebody would fill them for a left.
I have never been approached to make a documentary on it.
I did include a segment on the Billy Meyer case in the original UFO's The Best Evidence.
I'm intrigued by the case.
I think I look at some of the photos that occurred at the latter stages of Meyer's experiences, and they look completely phony.
I look at some of the photos that were taken in the beginning, some photos that are supported by multiple independent witnesses who said that they saw these things too, and I'm very intrigued.
I suspect it's like a lot of other UFO cases.
Billy Meyer might have been onto something, was getting some genuine information, had some genuine contact, started drawing attention, and drew the attention of intelligence agencies or others who wanted to discredit him.
Now, we heard over and over again this story about a model that was found in a barn.
I don't know that anyone has actually ever seen that model, but you heard that story over and over again.
unidentified
Well, those are the defectors from the group, and how can one armed man create all those four or five different variations of UFOs?
Well, he had, in those days, eight millimeter footage.
I mean, the man is honest.
Of course, the mud's going to fly in the UFO researchers' face when the time comes because the million pillar markets is not going to go away, and eventually, a worldwide distribution of his information will come forward.
I'm not, you know, But the other thing I want to talk to you about is that I saw something two years ago down at the Salton Sea, and it was right where they have their bombing area down there.
And we were out camping out there for about four or five days.
And at nighttime, we saw these two objects go through the sky so slowly, and there was no sound of an engine or anything.
And we could see lights on them.
It appeared like there were some kind of windows or something.
And, you know, I saw it first, and I pointed it out to these other friends that were camping, and we watched this thing for about 15 minutes, and there was just two of them, and they just went slowly across the sky, and they were close enough where there was no wind, so we should have been able to hear their engines or something.
And I thought that maybe that was something like what you saw.
It's an interesting dichotomy that even ufologists will admit that 9 out of 10 UFO sightings are probably misidentifications of explainable phenomenon.
But it's also true that 9 out of 10 UFOs are never reported at all.
And the simple fact is that there's no one to report them to.
Of course, UFO organizations will take those reports, but the vast majority of people, even here in America, are not part of those organizations who wouldn't know how to contact one if they wanted to.
Police agencies don't take the reports.
The Air Force claims that it stopped in 1969 taking reports.
So you can call to your airport and they'll keep you on the line to find out if you're a nut, but they don't take down the information.
So it's just, in essence, most of that information is lost forever.
The first question, Blue Book was the name of the third official, at least publicly known, study launched by the U.S. military into the UFO mystery.
Although study is probably not a good term to use for Blue Book, in essence, and everyone associated with it, including its first director, said that it was little more than a public relations exercise aimed at dismissing or explaining away UFO sightings.
The first two projects which preceded Blue Brook, Project Sign and Project Grudge, were a little bit different.
Project Sign was conducted in total secrecy.
It concluded that UFOs were real and probably extraterrestrial.
That recommendation was rejected by the head of the Air Force.
Project Grudge then concluded UFOs weren't worth studying.
That was followed by Project Blue Brook.
In 1969, Project Blue Brook ended when the military, in essence, announced that because of studies it had done, there appeared to be no threat from UFOs and that further study would be a waste of time.
We also know for a fact, because of the Air Force's own internal documents, that there is an ongoing study that was even underway at the time of Project Blue Book.
Any cases involving national security, like UFOs over ICDM bases, went somewhere else.
That somewhere else is still unknown to us, but it's probably still going on in that way.
As for the Mothman Prophecies, I haven't read it.
There's a guy named John Keel who wrote it.
It's about some incredible experiences.
I'm trying to remember the town, but it's a town back east, Virginia, West Virginia, somewhere like that, that was basically inundated with UFO sightings, with strange aerial phenomenon, with people reporting seeing humanoid-type figures with wings flying around.
As I said, I have not read it.
It certainly is well known in UFO circles, but that's about all I know about it.
I want to just say thank you for having a show like this.
I think more information should be brought out to the general public.
And I have a question for Mr. Knapp.
In all my readings and study that I've done on this subject, I probably started on the Betty and Barney Hill situation or not abduction, but back in the 50s, and worked my way recently through about 25, 30 books in the last two years.
However, the question is, getting back to the human spirit and the soul, what I've gathered is that they've asked a lot about that teeth that one of the things they admire about the human race is our individuality.
It seems like it, and what's been described by the various witnesses, it's almost like a hive mentality.
I'm not sure that, you know, the aliens, what we perceive to be aliens, what's most commonly reported in America, at least, as the aliens are the real aliens.
It's just the bug-eyed, big-headed grays that are reported most often almost in a lot of ways seem to be androids or some kind of machines that are directed by other intelligences, often humanoid-type intelligences that look just like us.
or to do the dirty work to go down and collect the samples and other interactions.
But the fact that there were a specific question about them being interested in the visualities of other interactions with the rest of the community, to go down to the other areas.
So you have to use the fact that you have to learn, I feel you have to adapt back to your first mother or your first family for interaction or play.
A lot of the FSPs remember being asked to play with these other strange-looking hybrid beings because that's not something that these others seem to understand.
Well, the individuality point is exhibited in a lot of the stories told by the FSPs.
The MUFON UFO Journal keeps up with not only the conferences, always has a monthly list of them, as well as pretty serious, incredible research that's going on in the field.
UFO Magazine, published out of L.A., always keeps up with that stuff.
They're very credible as well.
There's a service called the UFO News Clipping Service that not only lists a lot of conferences, but also gives you news from around the world relating to UFOs and other related topics, but from newspapers all over the world reported in the mainstream press.
I tried to call Richard Hoagland today because he seems to be tuned into this as much, if not more, than anyone, and was unable to get a hold of him to get the latest on that.
He has some very high-level sources within NASA, and I think I mentioned last week, he is convinced that this thing is going to turn itself back on in January or February, that it's still out there, that it's sending back pictures.
The other side of the coin, you've got people like Ed Dames, the guy who had predicted this big event in New Mexico that we've talked about several times, who has just received an issue of the New Mexico MUFO news at an extensive interview with Dames, who said that whatever happened up there to the Mars observer was directly related to the event that he had predicted was going to happen that has now been delayed, that the Martians or whoever is living up there were directly sabotaging.
I don't know if this issue by somebody or is there somebody who is right.
I really don't know.
I suspect from dealing personally with NASA that it is not out of the question that sabotage could have been on purpose, that not by NASA itself, but perhaps people within NASA who did not want the Sidonia region photographed, or if it was going to be photographed, didn't want the photographs made public.
I know it for a fact in dealing with them that they want nothing to do with anything that sounds like they are looking for Martians or ETs.
That's one of the reasons they changed the name of SETI to Hermes.
I know that they are uncooperative with researchers who are looking into the UFO angle.
I know that although a lot of them are very much interested in the face on Mars in the Sidonia region, they just don't want to admit it because they don't want to seem like WACO.
In fact, the news that I hear is that the House and Senate Conference Committee that killed it has given it $1 million in essence to phase itself out, which is an absolute tragedy.
You know, it's just politicians trying to throw the public a bone to show that they're cutting government waste when, in essence, they're spending so much money on other ridiculous projects that throwing a little bit of money to answer the fundamental questions of where we are in the universe,
whether or not we're alone, I mean, which even somebody like Carl Sagan would admit is the most fundamental question of our time and which would be the biggest scientific discovery in human history if contact were ever made.
It's a small price to pay for such big possible returns, and I'm really bothered by it.
I think it's like a lot of other things in the UFO field that it's a mixture of stuff that can be supported and stuff that's a lot of speculation, and it's important for the reader to know the difference between the two.
I can't tell you page for page what's true and what's not because I don't know.
I have access to all that information.
unidentified
Well, was there a place called Paradox out in Nevada?
Kid on line three, you're on the air with George Knapp.
unidentified
Okay.
I have a little quote here for you.
There is no proof.
There are no authorities whatever.
No president, academy, court of law, Congress, or Senate on this earth has the power or the knowledge to decide what will be the knowledge of tomorrow.
That was Wilhelm Reich.
But you were talking about a case of evidence for extraterrestrials.
I think a lot of people have to get an idea of perspective of their place in our universe by sheer numbers.
For example, our galaxy, the Milky Way galaxy, is just a couple hundred thousand light years in diameter.
And we're in what they call a local group of galaxies, which is 300 million light years in diameter.
Now, outside of this local group of galaxies, which is about 20 galaxies, there's a big void of space.
But then you come across these galaxy clusters, which are clusters of the galaxies, like the Virgo cluster.
Well, you can, but you can, you can, there's always a counter argument for the world being I mean, we have spacecraft that clearly show us the world is not flat.
unidentified
Yeah, that's true.
But still, when you think about the perspective and the shape of a sphere, and if you put it on a flat screen, it looks round.
But actually, that's flat.
No, get away from that.
I think what happens is people lose their perspective of our place in the universe by sheer numbers, because all we are on Earth is just not even the focus of the solar system here.
And the Milky Way galaxy is on the suburbs of our local group.
And our sun is in the suburbs of the Milky Way galaxy.
So by sheer numbers, there has to be trillions and trillions and trillions of stars out there.
So by sheer numbers alone, the evidence is overwhelming.
And do you think that the galactic void, do you think that there's like an area that you come to towards, say like you have all these other galaxy clusters?
Do you think there's a finite, you know, in other words, once you step out of the realm of these galaxy clusters, that there's an end to like the universe?
Let me put it this way, is that it's often the cliche you hear the most in UFO circles is there's so many planets, so many galaxies, there have to be light down there, which is a good point, and it's people like Mark.
Thank you.
Thank you.
unidentified
If you're unaware that the third international state is a special occasion.
The third international state is a special occasion.
The third international state is a special occasion.
They can be from anywhere or nowhere, anytime or no time.
So to suggest they are merely extraterrestrial, I think, is missing the larger picture, which I hope and believe is going to turn out to be far more wondrous than we could imagine at this point.
And I have a number of questions, but I'll limit it to one this week.
George, have you been on, I think it's Highway 93 On the way towards searchlights from Vegas, and they've got this, I believe it's called an ELF, extremely low-frequency transmitter set up antenna system that communicates with submarines.
My question concerns this: UFO sightings, light and always seems to be the common denominator.
Of course, you know, for visitors to sight something, you've got to have light.
Have you ever investigated or heard anything about why that ELF station, you've probably seen it when it was stroving at night over, you know, like a mile long, why those strobes were there on a system that's really designed to communicate with submarines underwater, you know, some thousands of miles away.
I tuned in a little late, and I heard George talking about when he was back in the Midwest, and he wanted to get his bearings straight on what the local opinion might be, you know, regarding their religion and everything.
And I'm not here to preach or anything else, but I would just think it would be a mighty dangerous thing to have a world without religion.
I can't argue with that, and I don't think anything that we're talking about is inconsistent with religion.
I think a lot of what the aliens or these visitors have communicated to abductees and others they've communicated with is that their own religious beliefs are not all that inconsistent with religion.