Art Bell

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Sept. 12, 1993 - Art Bell

01:47:26

Area 2000 with Art Bell - Michael Sorez, Broad Discussions

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30:12

george knapp

06:34

linda moulton howe

14:25

michael sorez

47:12

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		The following program is made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening.
		Welcome to another Area 2000.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		And as usual, we've got a full plate this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got our roving journalist, George Knapp, and way back in Philadelphia, this time at the airport, Linda Howe, just arriving back home with her glimpses of other realities.
		And then it'll be Dr. Michael D. Swords, and this morning's major subject, I guess, is going to be UFOs.
		But his education, his interest goes into the parasciences as well.
		So we're going to be just moving all over the place this morning.
		This evening.
		Never going to be able to get that straight.
		Maybe in four or five years.
		At any rate, good evening, everybody.
		We'll try and start it on the right note.
		Let's find out what's new in the world of UFOs this week and what's coming up.
		And for that, of course, our roving journalist, George Knapp.
		George, good evening.
		Welcome to the program.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, this week we begin our UFO newscast with things that did not happen, which is sort of, as you know, the bane of what news is supposed to be, which is all too appropriate in this crazy field.
		The first thing that did not happen is communication with the Mars Observer.
		NASA says the craft is either orbiting Mars, spinning toward deep space, or blown up.
		Take your pick.
		It really doesn't matter much to those who were waiting for information from that probe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it now declared an absolute lost cause?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		I think you've got people who are still hanging on that think that something might snap to life and that they still may get some information.
		I think, you know, realistically, that's a pretty long shot.
		However, NASA has now appointed a team of experts to evaluate the possibility of another probe to the Red Planet, what it will take, what the objectives should be.
		And the ubiquitous Carl Fagan is on this panel, so we can almost rest assured, I think, that investigation of the Sidonia region, which is of primary interest, I think, to people interested in UFO and alien research, will not be a high priority on that next probe mission, assuming it ever happens at all.
		The second thing that did not happen is the big UFO event in New Mexico.
		As we have mentioned on previous programs, former government psychics had predicted a major event in New Mexico in the month of August.
		They staked their professional reputations on this prediction.
		And unless you and I already have missed something on the news wires, their prediction was wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, you didn't say government psychics, did you?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'll work for the government, yes.
		Do you elaborate on that?
		I had no idea we had government psychics.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I think the first guest on your first program was probably more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Psychics is not perhaps the best term, but remote viewers is the term I think that's used in defense circles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's what caught me.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Sure, they don't want to publicize it a great deal because that would be the sort of thing that would attract budget cutters looking for headlines.
		But yeah, they take it pretty seriously.
		Anyway, these folks had left government service and formed their own company in New Mexico and had to stake their professional reputations on this prediction of a big UFO event.
		But there's been no UFO landing, no mass abductions, no spaceships zapping cacti, nothing.
		As we warned our listeners long ago, these types of UFO predictions come and go, and almost none of them amount to anything over the years.
		The real question in the wake of this is, why did these folks stick their necks out so far on such a prediction?
		What it means for the credibility of the ongoing remote viewer program run by the Department of Defense, and could this be another example of disinformation orchestrated by certain intelligence authorities to discredit or otherwise belittle UFO research in general?
		I'd be curious on Linda Howell's views on this stuff when you talk to her a little bit later.
		Art, we apparently have some pretty avid listeners in Clear Lake, California, and we'd like to say hello to them tonight.
		As we reported last week, Clear Lake is experiencing another wave of UFO sightings at present.
		It's nothing new, we're told.
		Residents say the same sort of weird lights and craft have been seen there for almost 40 years.
		It's kind of comparable to Fife, Alabama, which has had these periodic UFO episodes for as long as anyone can remember in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, are there more of them lately, George?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is Clear Lake suddenly in the news?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Only because the very efficient Angela Thompson has been following up the story and has been passing along the information to me.
		I think they have flaps every couple of years or so, and they're in the middle of one right now.
		The newspaper in Clear Lake has mentioned the program, Area 2000, in connection with its coverage of the UFO flap.
		And hey, Clear Lake, give us a call and let us know what's going on up there.
		An update on the situation in Russia.
		As we have reported previously, we managed to obtain some material from alleged Russian UFO landing sites during our journey there earlier this year.
		The material, which consists of some strange glycerin-looking nodules, we got it from two so-called landing sites, UFO landing sites, in the middle of nowhere.
		Russian scientists we talked to were unable to figure out what the stuff was.
		We managed to, when it subtly retrieved some of this, get it out of the country.
		We sent it to a very respected university-connected lab here in the U.S. for analysis.
		I've not yet received the final written report, but did speak to the research team leader.
		The bottom line is they don't know what it is either.
		This Russian doctor that we had spoken with has speculated he thought it might be some sort of cosmic seeding operation, and if you'll pardon the expression, some kind of like outer space sperm.
		However, the lab told us that whatever this stuff is, it does not appear to be biological.
		It's not a seed as we know seeds.
		The mystery persists because the experts were unable to tell us what it is, where it came from, why it was found in two separate sites hundreds of miles apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will you get a chemical breakdown eventually?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll hopefully.
unidentified		I'll footprint by reparations that they went through in nature.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		They are speculating that it might have something to do with lightning.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		When we get the final lab reports on the material, we certainly will share it with our listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't want to tell us how you got it out of Russia?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		No, because I'm going to have to go back there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All righty.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Stories about a UFO movie centered on Las Vegas scientists Bob Lazar crew.
		There had been considerable speculation about whether this matter was going to come to the big screen in UFO football when he wrote Lazar has reached an agreement with New Line Cinema.
		No word yet on when the cameras will load.
		A side note for Lazar's many critics, she did not initiate this deer for movie people came to fun.
unidentified		In fact, the prospects be able to be disclosed concerning her story.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Already it has become apparent that some people out there don't want the movie to be made.
		Some junior UFO investigators have been scouring the country looking for, in their words, dirt on the with the intention of sending that dirt on to the movie people and scuttling the project.
		Bust of luck for those folks, but it isn't going to happen.
		The movie will.
		Finally, the initial report from last week was full.
		The Cartani library series of UFO lectures and films is sold out.
		In fact, all the tickets for two months' worth of programs were gone in two days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		This happens despite, as you know, Art, continued ridicule from other media here in Las Vegas, blind skepticism from science concerning UFOs.
		I think there is an appreciation that regular people feel this topic is important.
		Regular people want to know what's going on, and I think your program really fills an important niche in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And clearly, interest in it is growing quickly.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		It's exactly right.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I had a chance to talk to Dr. John Knapp at Harvard a couple of months ago, and he feels there's a quickening of the interest in this, and maybe even feels that the visitors, call them aliens or whatever, they may be responsible for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're picking up the phone for a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A fire take is going to hurt.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Well, that's excellent, George.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really just pleasant.
unidentified		That pain is just more legitimate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Researchers will begin to look into all of this, and maybe we have a chance of really getting somewhere shortly.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Sure, hope so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, George, wonderful hearing from you, as always.
		Thank you.
		That's George Knapp with a lot to say this morning and of particular interest, those materials that he got out of Russia.
		And on another note that he mentioned, when we do get a little further into the program and get to a telephone segment, I, too, would like to ask if anybody in Clear Lake who can catch us up on what's going on over there would give us a call.
		I'm glad to know they're listening.
		Nice to hear they mentioned us in the Clear Lake newspaper.
		All right, time for a glimpse into another reality.
		That would be our Linda Howe, who I understand is at the airport or near the airport at an airport inn or something of that order and is doing a lot of traveling.
		So I guess we'll find out what she's been up to right now.
		Glimpses of other realities.
		It comes from Linda Howe, now back in Philadelphia.
		Good evening, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Arth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I spent the day in Rye, New Hampshire, which is up near Portsmouth and Exeter.
		For those listening who are familiar with the Betty and Barney Hill abductions case, it was up in that area that that famous first abduction occurred.
		This was the annual New Hampshire Newfound Conference.
		It occurs on a day, on a Sunday, has for the last three years.
		And this day there were nearly 600 people in the audience.
		There was one of our guests attended, which several people, including John Mess, one of the speakers, he and I at lunch were talking about the fact that the grassroots interest in the phenomena seems to be growing conference to conference.
		The general audience is getting larger.
		And today, the people who did speak were John Mack and Richard Hoagland, and I'll talk a little bit about what he had to say about Mars in a second.
		Myself, Colin Andrews, Unclapper Bolt, and David Jacobs.
		Most of these people you've had on the program in the last couple of months.
		But I will start with a recap of what I think were some very important points that Dr. Math made to set the day off in what everyone agreed was the focus of the conference and will continue to be probably the focus of much of our work in the coming years.
		And Dr. Math put it in those ways, other realities, glimpses of other realities is where we are headed with all of this phenomenon because it is not just simply the extraterrestrial biological entity that we're dealing with.
		There appears to be other dimensional aspects of it.
		And in that context, he said that he's now studied 76 UFO abduction cases and has found an interesting evolution that he has been surprised in terms of the nature and complexity of the evolution of abductees themselves if they hang in there with him as a psychiatrist,
		that's his background at Power Center, and working with hypnosis and has seen them go through terrific fear, terrific anger.
		Many people feel like that they have been raped by some kind of a physical entity or being or taken against their will or all kinds of physical violations that manifest in terrible trauma.
		And he said he has never in his years as a psychiatrist seen the kind of trauma that he has seen when he has worked With the abductees in hypnosis.
		And yet, he said that in many cases now, if they hang in there and they continue to work together, they seem to come to a point, some kind of a breakthrough.
		And they pass the fear, they pass the trauma.
		They end up with a new sense that the abduction experience is concerned with the evolution of their spiritual life in some way.
		And in that context, he has found, and this has shocked him as a psychiatrist, he said it was very difficult for him in the beginning when these episodes began coming out.
		And that would be an abductee who, under hypnosis, trying to deal with the abduction experience, is being taken back to their birth, trying to find out where these experiences begin, and is suddenly, apparently, in another life.
		And in another life, the same beings or beings that look like the ones that were involved in the abduction in this life are in what appears to be another life.
		And so Dr. Mack himself, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, who four years ago did not, as he said, know what he was getting into and has been finding his own curiosity provoked to the point he has studied and worked with 76 people,
		is now finding that the whole idea of reincarnating cycles, life to life, is becoming part of his research and that the same alien beings are in these other lives too, that there's some connection between the alien beings and a particular abductee's current life.
		Now, what that is headed toward in terms of understanding the implications of all this for the human-alien interaction in the past, present, and future is a huge unknown, and I think that there will probably be more and more reports over the next year or two or three in this particular area, and I hope to be bringing more information about this kind of other aspect of a reality that also touches perhaps into the near-death experiences.
		That's something we don't know yet, but Ken Ring's work certainly suggests that there are parallels between what happens to abductees and what happens at the moment of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that is really fascinating, Linda.
		Do you think the two areas of study will somehow merge at some point?
		It sounds like it's possible.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, in my own research, I am exploring both all the time.
		And Dr. Mack and I and others, we see each other on a somewhat regular basis at conferences.
		And I think what will continue to happen is we will keep sharing our own research and our insights about all of this.
		And as we see something that seems to be another insight, I will certainly report it on Area 2000.
		And so the radio listeners and you and I and George and all of us, I feel like we're all learning together as we move along each week.
		And we really are bringing glimpses of other realities because none of us know the answers.
		And every week something new happens.
unidentified		The next speaker was Richard Hovland.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And there were two hours of his particular focus of research about Mars and his, I guess you would say, almost 10-year mission to convince the world that there is an artificially constructed face up there that's a mile long and 1,500
		feet high, and that it was placed there, according to his estimates, based on a whole variety of research they've been doing, way before the current cycle of Tennis Apian here, let's say in the last 25 or 50,000 years.
		He's placing it back much further than that.
		And he explained that this work that he's been doing on the face on Mars and other structures has now been awarded a major scientific honor in Sweden just in the past week or two because Sweden believes the mathematical work that people like Torren in Washington,
		D.C., Errol Torren, who works for the Defense Mapping Agency, has been involved with research on the mathematical relationships on Mars.
		Mark Carlato at the Analytical Sciences Corporation in Reading, Massachusetts, has been using computer enhancement to look at this space, to look at other objects that are within about 10 miles of this face in a region called Sidonia that appear to be at least pyramidal looking.
		They look sort of like pyramids in these computer enhanced photographs.
		And because the math, the angles, and the relationships between the face and these pyramid-like structures appear to have consistencies and patterns that repeat over and over and over again, it is reinforcing the idea that Hoagland introduced 10 years ago or so in his book work,
		The Monuments on Mars, that it is artificially constructed and that it is very ancient, that it was something that was there once upon a time and left these huge gigantic markers on the surface of Mars.
		And the big question is, why?
		Now, he personally stated at the conference today that he has sources that are suggesting, as George has talked about, that the orbiter is actually not in a failure mode, but has continued to function on some kind of classified channel because they wanted to get pictures of this region and other regions of Mars secretly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, I've got to stop you here because somebody faxed me something that I'm sitting on, and I don't know what to make of it.
		It appeared in a publication called the Weekly World News, September 14th edition.
		It purports to be a rather high-resolution picture of the phase on Mars, and it is absolutely startling.
		And I guess I'm going to have to figure a way to fax it to you or get it to you.
		It comes with a story.
		It says that this was taken on August 20th.
		This August 20th.
unidentified		Well, if it were anything else but the World Weekly News...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear what you're saying.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Seriously.
		What is a problem?
		Problems aren't news.
		We obviously get leaks here and there, and Hoagland is saying that he's had what he considers to be firmer leaks than just speculation or the weekly world news that something actually is still functioning on Mars, but that the government does not want us to know anything yet until they've had a chance to analyze what's up there.
		Now, I suppose there are two possibilities.
		One is that it is not functioning and we'll never know and they're going to have to relaunch something.
		Or they are getting some kind of data, and then somebody's going to have to come up with a scenario of how they would reintroduce this lost satellite orbiting around Mars so that they might reintroduce some data from a planet that we haven't been to since 1976.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Linda, they have been right along suggesting that they may regain contact, so they're leaving the door open.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that may actually reinforce what Richard Hoagland had to say today in New Hampshire about this new information, that it actually is functioning.
		He also suggested that in December that there will be a NASA mission to repair the Hubble telescope.
		And he was indicating that he believes that the mission, the repair mission itself is also a type of cover-up, that they actually are going to be using that telescope to focus on some kind of multiple asteroid-like objects that are supposed to be coming into the solar system right now and that they want to track on Hubble.
		But what we now have, since this is in September, it's not very long until we get to December, we've only got two or three months to see how is information about Mars, the Hubble telescope, asteroids, how is it going to be handled?
		And is there something that is going to come out of all of this that will culminate maybe in the government finally telling us something straight about the whole alien connection?
		That's what I'm hoping will happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll hope along with you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Let me just give you one quick update and then I'll pass it on to you.
		And that is, I got a call Friday before I left for New Hampshire from Dr. Lovington.
		And we had had a chance to book up our breast schedule around the wheat seed from that enormous 445-foot formation in Cherhill that I talked with you all about about now three or four weeks ago when I was in England.
		That first night I got to Alton Barnes, and this big, enormous, beautiful formation was laid out in that wheat field.
		And he's had a chance to look at what's called the electrical conductivity across the black tissue on those seeds from inside the formation and says they line up right down the line with a very unusual pattern of electric conductivity and oscillation of this tissue that he has found in the Utic and New York formation,
		the Kennewick-Washington formation, and others in Canada, the United States, Australia, and England that fall into another pattern of other anomalous changes in the plants that Dr. Leavengood, a biophysicist, says cannot be helped.
		So for those caught up in the politics of cynicism out there that are convinced that Doug and Dave, Jim Schnabel, and Robert Irving must be making all of these, they are going to have to show Dr. Leavengood and the sciences how they are actually changing the fundamental microfibral structure of speed and women.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's absolutely remarkable.
		Absolutely remarkable.
		I would like to understand a little more of what that means.
		In other words, is there any other way, naturally, or with what these hoaxsters were doing, that this change, it's hard to even know what to ask, Luna.
		And what, in his opinion, could have produced this change in the structure, molecular structure?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, he did this experiment, devised it, because last year, actually going back 18 months ago, he had seen enough changes in the plant that included bending of nodes.
		Plants, the wheat should be growing straight.
		And in the formations, and this has been repeated now in many countries for two years, in formations, the node will be bent on the ground without cracking at the surface of the earth.
		But six or eight inches out to the, let's say, the first or second growth node, all of a sudden, the weed is taking a 45 or 90 degree angle.
		It is something that cannot be hoaxed.
		It means that there's an actual change in the cell structure of the plant stem and the growth node for the stem to actually take off suddenly into a bend and to have many of those inside of a formation and none of those in the control view outside.
		That's one particular demonstration of a dramatic change in the formation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely incredible.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And this is very consistent with his hypothesis, was that was one of many changes that he said there's an intense, intense energy that is interacting with the plants in the formations that is affecting the fundamental biochemistry and biophysics of the plants.
		And so he hypothesized if it was as intense as he was seeing in these other changes, he guessed that it was actually changing the microfibril level of the plant, which would meet down getting close to the cellular level.
		And that's where electrical conductivity would take place across this particular bract tissue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		No, and so this experiment was to say he knew how the electrical conductivity would work in control plants.
		So he said, what would I find out if I did this experiment on plants from the formations?
		Would I see a change?
		And he has seen a consistent change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's some hot information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda Howe, where are you going to be next week?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to be moving around in the mid-part of the country going west.
		And by next Sunday, I will be in Denver.
		And I will give you a number there where I will be.
		And by then, I'll also have some new information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As always, thank you Linda Howe and her glimpses of other realities.
		And in a moment, Dr. Michael D. Swords.
		Stay right where you are.
		You're listening to Area 2000 from Jackie Dawn's Plaza downtown.
		This is KDWN Las Vegas.
		Good evening, everybody.
		This is Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Michael D. Swartz is a professor of natural science at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
		He graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 1962 with a B.S. degree in chemistry.
		Also holds an M.S. degree from Iowa State University in biochemistry.
		A BHD from State's Western Reserve University.
		His major professional involvements are teaching and writing in the areas of general sciences and anomalous phenomena.
		His teaching centers about human biology, the history and philosophy of science, scientific methodology, and the parasciences, of which ufoology or ufology is a member.
		His writings have concentrated mainly on topics in ufology, parapsychology, and cryptozoology, which we'll ask about, and several have been published in the MUFON UFO Journal.
		He has won his University's Teaching Excellence Award in 1978.
		Dr. Swords is a member of several professional and parascientific societies, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Association of University Professors, the Society for Scientific Exploration, and, of course, the Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON.
		He serves as a MUFON consultant and was in the same capacity for the Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization, the International 14 organization, we'll ask about that too, and is a member of the advisory panel for the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained.
		He is a board member of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies and is the editor of Ufology's academic journal, the Journal of UFO Studies.
		Dr. Swords originally spoke at the MUFON 1986 UFO Symposium in East Lansing, Michigan, a talk for which the current presentation will be an extension.
		He has recently presented materials at the Abductions Conference of Treat II, as well as the National Science Teachers Association.
		Dr. Swords may be contacted at the Department of General Studies, Western Michigan University at Kalamazoo.
		And now, Dr. Swords.
		Dr. Swords, good evening.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Hello, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the way to Michigan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am fine, and I hope you are as well.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's been interesting listening so far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that caught my eye about you, Doctor, was I know that you mainly do research into other people's research as opposed to conducting your own.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not a case researcher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one of the things that you said, and I'm going to enjoy this, is that you are not a yes man for anybody's theory.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as a matter of fact, if I was given the job of predecing most of the things that had been talked about on the show so far tonight, I would have to catch a little bit on almost everything, if not quite a bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
		Well, that's a good healthy attitude.
		What did you happen to think of what Linda said about the molecular changes in the wheat?
		What doubt would you cast on that offered information?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that is a problem in all UFO research, and it has lopped on over into crop circles research, is that there are not many people actually doing tests.
		So that you have a fellow like Dr. Levengood, and I have no reason to suspect that Dr. Leavengood is not a very good scientist, but you have him do a piece of research.
		He's not actually on the site himself.
		He doesn't do his own sampling.
		Somebody else does that for him over there and then sends it back to Michigan.
		And then no one else except Dr. Leavengood, who to some degree is working at very long range, rechecks the information.
		So something like Dr. Leavengood's work could be brilliantly correct.
		But from the point of view of the academic community, since it's such an extraordinary thing, you'd want to have a researcher right on the site doing this stuff and then following in kind of a team research mode all the way through to the data, because it's a matter of trust, after all, as to whether everything was done properly all the way down the line.
		I don't really have that much negative to say about Levinger's work.
		I think it's pretty interesting stuff.
		It just needs to be repeated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you've looked into what all these other researchers have been doing, and I try to ask every guest I have this same question, are you personally convinced or do you lean toward the theory or the fact that we are indeed being visited?
		In other words, is something really going on, in your view?
		Have you come to that personal conclusion?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I don't think there's any question that the UFO phenomena entails some very major mysteries which could very well be extraterrestrial produced.
		But the UFO phenomena at large, I think, is composed of mostly errors.
		And so when you, in other words, I don't think it's as robust a phenomena as people tend to want to make it, who kind of want to keep the excitement going in almost like a Saturday morning cartoon style.
		In the United States, folks are impatient and we want a miracle on the street corner every second.
		I think that the UFO phenomenon has a lot of great cases in it, for which the most prominent hypothesis would be an extraterrestrial hypothesis.
		I think the abduction Phenomena also has some great cases in it, but the vast majority of these things are very unconvincing, and a lot of the stuff that has accreted to UFO phenomena is, I think, erroneously stuck in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm wondering, as you look at the various researchers' work, for example, abductions you mentioned, how do you sift through or what methodology do you use for trying to determine what has some credibility and conversely what does not?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Now, the abductions thing is a very difficult thing to understand.
		But you have two kinds of researchers, basically.
		You have researchers who become very personally involved with their clients, and God bless them for that, because these people are hurting.
		But at the same time that they do that, they don't really gain any information that you could count on as objectively gained in some way.
		In other words, they're more like client councils than they are researchers.
		We have other individuals who proceed according to sort of old-fashioned UFO research that go to the trouble of checking the people's backgrounds out and talking to other people who know them, trying to get some feeling for the observer credibility.
		So the first thing I do is I look at the research methodology of the researcher who's making the claim.
		And when a researcher who seems to be very thorough and also has done a good job of checking observer credibility comes out with a statement that these are the various facts that each is presented by the reporter, then I say, well, that's probably a true anomaly, especially when it matches up with what other researchers are reporting.
		But for the people who...
		I find, unfortunately nowadays, I find rather small amounts of true old-time UFO research on abduction cases.
		Almost everybody wants to have sympathy and rapport for very good reasons with the people who have come to them, and they can't bring themselves to really do the in-depth character background checks so that you could really say that you knew whether this was a true case or a wannabe case or a case that's asking something else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then probably the best way to determine is to look into the alleged victim's background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if their background is solid, then you would lean toward concluding their story, maybe.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I would at least lean towards concluding that they absolutely believe what they're saying to be true.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		If then the pattern in what they're saying seems to match other things that they would have no good reason for knowing and matching, then I would say this is very likely a good case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, how much regard do you have for regressive hypnosis in these cases?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think regressive hypnosis is capable of being a very good tool.
		We've had some individuals who've used that, like Dick Haynes has a method of using that that I think is perfectly good.
		We have a lot of different kinds of hypnotists that have used the thing with different sorts of methods, and they seem to come out with the same basic pattern, so I see no reason to suspect that hypnosis is still in the workshop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In some of your publications, you've written about something called the WOW signal, and that intrigued me.
		I'm very much a radio person.
		What is the WOW signal?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		WOW signal was something that came in during a very early search for extraterrestrial intelligence by the Ohio State University Radio Telescope.
		I've forgotten whether it was in the 60s or when, but it was pretty far back in time.
		And one, and they were just doing automated sky scans, and one evening as the thing passed across the sky, it got a tremendous burst of energy from a certain place in space.
		It was not noticed until the next morning when a graduate student came in and looked at the readout and was so blown away he wrote wow next to the thing.
		That's how it got it.
		Of course, they went back and they rescanned the sky in that area to try to find out what it was that gave the signal.
		They were never able to pick it up again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know what the nature of the signal was?
		Was it just pure white noise energy?
		Was there any...
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It was energy at a certain specific wavelength in the spectrum.
		I don't recall what the wavelength was right now, but the machine was scanning just a certain narrow band of the spectrum.
		This is not too much unlike what they've recently claimed for the big search that's gone on with Jill Carter and Carl Sagan and Frank Drake, where they think that they've picked up maybe 50 or 60 different of these one-time only signals out there and never been able to relocate them again, all in different parts of the sky.
unidentified		So no feasibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, with the current search going on, which they've renamed, I can't recall the new name for it, but I think it's funded to the tune of about $100 million.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The report from those folks so far would be basically negative or nothing that would earn a wow.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll have to see how much kind of a thing that they want to run on the politicians who they're trying to get more money from.
		It doesn't see what spin they put on it.
		But I think intellectually, honestly, you'd have to say that their results are negative.
		But they're going to feature, I'm sure, the fact that they've got these one-time glitches or whatever it was in the signals from these various points in space to hold out as a carrot that this thing is probably worth continuing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		That's what I predict.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Let me try this one with you.
		Linda Howell was mentioning something we frequently talk about in this program, the possibility of parallel universes.
		And I was particularly intrigued with her mention of the possible tie-in between reincarnation, Parallel universes and this business with UFOs and abductions.
		Is there any possibility, or is it much too much of a reach to imagine that one day there will be a kind of a merge that will occur or there is some sort of connection?
		What are your feelings?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, if one assumes that the so-called abduction phenomenon is not just one phenomenon, but is in fact a lot of different things that are causing something that sort of looks the same on the surface, then you might be able to say,
		well, there's one part of this thing that looks like it's EP-based, and there's one part of this thing that looks like it's, say, some kind of a peculiar human mental carnival, and that there's maybe some other kind of thing that's much more paranormal.
		I don't see at this stage of our investigations, of our knowledge, how one would want to be too confident in making any claims in one of those areas.
		But I would say this, that you could certainly imagine a cosmos that has reincarnation in it that has nothing to do with parallel realities in any sense other than kind of a loop through a disembodied spiritual existence.
		You don't have to have a Jacques Valley and Magonian type parallel reality or something like that.
		And I would say that if you're going to try to speculate about E.T people being involved in past lives, well, there better be a lot more evidence for this than what we've heard so far from Dr. Mack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let us return to an earlier time, maybe the beginning of the modern UFO phenomenon.
		And that, of course, is the 1947 and the Roswell business.
		I take it that there's been so much done on that since you study what others have done that you've looked at Roswell and the studies done on it very carefully.
		What have you concluded about that incident?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think that Roswell is the one other thing in UFO research other than abductions research that's really worth doing right now.
		From what I can tell from the Roswell research that's done by Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, that case just continues to look stronger and stronger through time.
		It has fought off the challenges of maybe 20 different alternative hypotheses that people keep throwing out.
		The more witnesses that are dug up, instead of having the idea dissipate and fragment into a lot of nonsense, the story just seems to grow tighter.
		I went into that Roswell thing thinking that it just couldn't possibly be true because it would change the whole nature of the space program and everything else.
		And I've been disabused of all that stuff by this stage.
		I think the Roswell case, along with the better abduction cases, are by far and away the most important thing we're doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then let's stick with Roswell for a moment.
		Can you run us through it a little bit?
		What is it that you find so convincing as you've studied it about Roswell?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing is the fact that the initial witness who cracked the story was a man of such importance in the armed forces, a high-level intelligence major who almost no matter what kind of a game you try to think up would be serving no good intelligent purpose in breaking the Roswell story the way he broke it.
		The second thing is that at this time, there are probably between one and two dozen different first-hand witnesses to the metal pieces that were scattered around the Bravo Ranch.
		And their descriptions of the metal pieces and also some of the other debris, they match perfectly.
		And the characteristics of this metal, two different kinds of it, especially the one that was the unbendable, unburnable kind, and the other that was the clumpable, but then it would refold into its own shape.
		These are metal alloys that you look back as to what our metallurgy was in 1947.
		We couldn't do that stuff.
		So it gets to be pretty difficult to just wave off, say, 15 to 20 first-hand witnesses who are describing a couple of different metal forms that we couldn't make at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, after Roswell, there were some initial reports that seemed quite clear, early reports.
		Then all of a sudden, we began to get the government involved, the weather balloon story and so forth.
		You must have looked at all that very carefully as well.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Those alternative reports, they have been tracked down with amazing efficiency by Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall to the point of first-hand records for launchings of balloon types and of different sorts of missiles and all of these things.
		And not only do none of them match any of the described characteristics of the material, but all the known launches of anything have been accounted for.
		So I just think that's just all smokescreen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What about the part of the story that suggests there were alien beings there, that they were picked up and taken, I think, to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base?
		All of that hold up?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The alien beings part of the story is not as strong as the debris part of the story.
		But once you get the debris part of the story sort of established in your mind, it's a lot easier to buy into the craft occupants, especially since on one or two rare occasions, a witness will talk some about both.
		And so if that person was credible on the metals, that person is probably credible on the beings.
		Still, in terms of the so-called body site, because there are two different locations, a debris field in one area and then a body site much closer to the town of Roswell, that body site is still pretty much a work in progress research-wise.
		There are Prime witnesses for that.
		I've been in the presence of a couple of these people.
		They are still holding on to their anonymity.
		I think one of them is about to be willing to come out and be quoted all over the place.
		But that's still a work in progress, and that needs to be firmed up before too much is claimed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, all this works very easily then into the government cover-up aspect of this.
		And there have been all kinds of documents over the years that have come out purporting to be government documents, briefing papers for Eisenhower, and all sorts of things, as you know, have come out.
		What have you concluded as you've looked at this aspect of it, the government cover-up aspect?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		As far as the government cover-up of Roswell, I haven't been impressed with any of the documents that specifically claim to relate to that.
		But as far as government cover-up is concerned, that's just obvious.
		That's been obvious ever since David Jacobs wrote his history of the UFO phenomenon way back in the 70s.
		As soon as people got inside the Robertson panel information and also into the Condon Report information, into the two major government elements that existed.
		One, which ended up with the idea of completely debunking the UFO field forever because of national security reasons, and the other one was the so-called scientific study, which was a debunking study from the beginning.
		As soon as those internal documents were revealed, it was obvious that you had nothing going on except the big cover-up, and then we've done nothing but to indicate more of the same with all the FOIA documents and things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as a matter of national security, from what perspective?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of reasons that it can be a matter of national security, but I'll give you the main one that the Robertson panel suggested.
		The Robertson panel was a CIA panel, for listeners who haven't heard about this, in 1952, very late in the year, actually early 1953, that was composed of five major scientists.
		And they recommended actually a downplaying UFO phenomena because, namely, during the previous summer, which was a big flap, probably the second biggest of all time, the communication channels within the military were so clogged by citizens falling in that they considered it as having weakened the country's ability to respond to a real attack from the Soviet Union.
		And so they felt that if so-called UFO hysteria or enthusiasm or whatever you want to call it was allowed to just go unchecked, that they would continuously be vulnerable from, say, the Soviet Union messing with us and doing things to stimulate a lot of collagen and swapping the zone lines and then maybe be able to have a more successful attack come in after, say, a fake UFO wave of some kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there are so many governments in the world, and if we have decided to cover it all up, or for the reasons you just suggested, or even others, what about all the other governments in the world?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It would be my opinion that our government was the only one fortunate enough to have a crash come down and ended up with something really amazing that it had to cover up for more reasons of concern for various social and economic institutions in the country, and that would have been the Roswell thing.
		And the other countries wouldn't have to be bothered with something like that.
		Now, some people say that back in those days in 1947, that would have been such a big thing that we would have had to have gone to the other major powers in the world and informed them that we somewhat and gotten a gentleman's agreement to keep the lid on the crash saucer thing.
		But as far as other governments were concerned, I don't know what their thinking process would have been.
		Certainly the Soviets would have had a somewhat similar concern to ours with the voice of the Robertson panel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Sure.
		I'm sure they would have.
		We're now beginning, of course, with the Soviet Union breaking up and with Russia being so much more open.
		As you may have heard, you know, George was actually able to get some materials out.
		That never could have been done previously.
		There should be a lot of new information coming from Russia and the other republics.
		Are we getting much?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		You keep hearing rumors of this, but I would caution listeners to remember that the Soviet Union, for a very long time, has had a record of having isolated researchers who were pretty much unchecked by anything but their own imagination to claim almost anything out in the boondocks.
		And so unless we get some extremely good, trustworthy information from research institutes that are backed by known scientists, I would not just automatically swallow any stuff that comes from the Soviet Union.
		Now, the other thing to say about that is, though, that Dr. Haynes from NASA Ames, which is someone that you may get on your program sometime, he's a very good scientist.
		He has made a link with Soviet scientists who are interested in UFOs.
		And it's hoped that as this liaison becomes more firm, that we will get some genuinely good case research out of them.
		But to my knowledge, that has not yet happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One popular theory, and one of my favorite subjects is time travel.
		And I noticed that you'd written something on UFOs as time travelers with a question mark after it.
		It is at least as possible a theory when we're left with nothing but theories, to imagine as any other.
		Could it be that what we regard as UFOs from elsewhere actually are from our future?
		Is that possible?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		For Walt Andris in the Mufon Journal some time ago, I wrote actually a pair of papers separated by a couple of years to try to analyze whether that theory could make any sense or not.
		When you take a look at the shape of the typical euphonaut, it turns out kind of amusingly to me at least that that critter does look like something that you might expect due to what's called a neotin shift or a gene-like shift so that our own human species might tend to look a little bit more like our own fetuses grown up, to say.
		And so I thought, well, that's kind of amazing, that the biological part of this thing could actually make some sense, that it would be the same species just in a future mode.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anybody, Doctor, doing any work on computer projections, one might imagine, of how we might continue to evolve?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		No, and the reason why is that when you look at the thing in terms of the theory of evolution, it doesn't make any sense.
		We basically have stopped our evolution.
		Now, we're not going to change on the basis of just natural activity.
		Now, we might choose genetically reviewed here ourselves, and that would have to do with this shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's fascinating.
		You're concluding we have stopped our evolution.
		And then what...
		I've got to do a newscast at the top of the hour.
		I would like to come back and continue this with you.
		So relax for about five minutes.
		We'll do some news and come back to you, Doctor.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Dr. Michael D. Swords from Michigan with us.
		More Area 2000 coming up.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Music From Jackie Gong's Platform.
unidentified		Good evening, everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back to Area 2000.
unidentified		I'm Mark Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to remind you, if you have information on something involving UFOs, parapsychology, life after death, we would like to have you, encourage you, in fact, to contact the Bigelow Foundation.
		They are the mentors for this program and a great deal of research that is done generally in the UFOs, life after death.
		You can contact the Bigelow Foundation at area code 702-456-1606.
		Your contact there, Angela Thompson.
		Area code 702-456-1606.
		Back now, or in just a moment, to Dr. Michael Swords, who is somebody who looks into other people's work and investigation.
		And I've got a couple of questions continuing on evolution here.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, you're welcome to get on the phone lines and line up to ask the doctor a question if you'd like.
		The local number, of course, is 383-8255.
		383-8255.
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		Our number is 1-800-338-8255.
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		The wildcard directile lines are Area Code 702-385-7214, 7214.
		And finally, if you have never called at all, you're welcome, of course, on the first time caller line, which is Area Code 702-385-7213 or 7213.
		With that, back now to Kalamazoo, Michigan and Dr. Swartz.
		Good evening again, Doctor.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were on this.
		You really stopped me when you said that our evolution has stopped.
		How do you conclude that?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's actually something that biologists have known ever since the theory of natural selection has got so much evidence to support it, because the way biological evolution proceeds is it only works when the offending characteristic,
		a characteristic that you don't want to have, is a characteristic that will kill you prior to you being able to mate and pass on the genes that create that characteristic.
		Or it's a characteristic that makes you so sexually unattractive that nobody wants to mate with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is determined then by environmental considerations which are now stable?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing that stabilizes the thing is the fact that we have brains, and we don't wait around anymore to die.
		Instead, the person with an appendix that gets ill has the appendix simply taken out.
		There's no evolutionary pressure for people with appendices to die anymore.
		The person who has a huge wart on his nose and nobody likes him could have that wart removed if he wanted to.
		You know, it's that kind of thing.
		Our intelligence allows us to adapt to negative conditions immediately rather than waiting around for the next generation to get lucky genetically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose there are stark environmental changes.
		The ozone dries up and blows away.
		The planet begins to heat.
		One of the things suggested by, some of the things suggested by the environmentalists, would that then trigger some evolutionary modification in human beings?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Only if the catastrophe was so large that it destroyed our ability to technologically react to it.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		As long as we still have technology that would allow us to react to whatever this thing you're talking about is and preserve the life until it has a chance to mate, then it would have no effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The catastrophe is big enough that it downs our technology again.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		We'll be back into the game of life then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		There are a lot of people who suggest that one of the motivations for the intervention by extraterrestrials would be connected to genetics.
		And I'm sure you've looked into that aspect.
		What are your comments?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have tried for years to get David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins off of that because it does not make any sense whatsoever.
		And finally, I think I've succeeded in getting Dr. Jacobs to change the way he talks about what he found.
		And he's talking now more about hybrids in the sense of changing human genes rather than trying to mate alien genes to human genes, which is a theory that just doesn't make any sense at all.
		So if aliens are messing around with our genetics, they're simply messing around with our genetics to change us in some way, not to mate us with them.
		And that becomes very mysterious as to why they would be bothering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Since you again look into everybody else's work, and that's what you do, this question would be a good one.
		I've been looking into all this and interviewing people for years now, and I have noticed that ufologists seem to eat each other alive.
		And I would like your comments on that and how damaging it is to the overall credibility of the investigators.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think that your observation about this being a mean streak as far as research is concerned is unfortunately more than accurate.
		There are some people who do not engage in that kind of personality fashion, who somehow manage to stay above it.
		But almost everybody manages to get down into this.
		The reason why I think that happens is that UFOs are something that the majority of people in the country seem so anxious to want to ignore or to ridicule or get rid of in some sort of way that the researchers in the field think that they have to be perfect.
		And as they try to be perfect, they end up taking some kind of extremist positions that will never allow themselves to admit that even some little part of what they've done is wrong.
		This ends up then when somebody comes back and tries to mention, perhaps even in a nice way, that some part of what they have done is wrong, it becomes very personal with them.
		I think the other reason why it happens all the time is that most of the folks who are doing research and did UFOs are amateurs.
		And I don't use that word in any shortest sense.
		I'm using it in the old English word of people who love what they're doing, but they're not doing the thing that's an academic style.
		And because of that, it just creates an environment that maximizes all the tiniest little errors to the worst possible ends, and it really hurts the field getting any kind of credibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and maybe adding to it all is disinformation.
		Is there or is there not, in your opinion, an active disinformation campaign by the government or any other agency or peoples?
		Is there a lot of intentional disinformation out there?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a tougher one to know because the people doing the disinformation, if they are, are professionals and they're very good at it.
		But there are known cases of UFO researchers themselves who have created disinformation for whatever crazy reasons they had going on in their head.
		Also, when you look at the Roswell investigation, there are hints in various places up and down the line that there's been some disinformation and some research blocking going on there.
		But if you're talking about the big guys in the Pentagon-shaped building and that outfit, that's harder to document because those people are good at what they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to ask, what is cryptozoology?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Cryptozoology is, that means hidden animal forms.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		And so that's the group of people who's headed by Richard Greenwell in Tucson, Arizona, and Bill Berkrantz at Washington State, and Roy Mackle at Chicago, and that they look for the Lotman Monster and Bigfoot and Bomblesnillman, dinosaurs and hepatitis forms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I just wanted to know, and then just down below it is something that really piques my interest.
		It's simply entitled Disappearing Stars.
		And I have a man who calls me on my syndicated radio show and is doing research into precisely that, disappearing stars.
		He claims that stars at different moments actually do, for varying periods of time, disappear.
		What do you know about that?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, for one thing, there is a known astronomical phenomenon which causes a star to seem to dim out to us.
		These are extreme variable stars, and that they go from a very high magnitude to a very low one as part of a cycle that probably signals the end of their life.
		But that's probably not the most interesting kind of disappearing star.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, this man is referring to ones that disappear and then at the same intensity later reappear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he has a certain theory about that.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oscillating stars would, in fact, do that, and it would be a known phenomenon that would be occurring probably near the end of a star's life as a variable.
		But the things that are more puzzling to standard science, anyway, are cases where you brought a very accurate secular to everything else on his maps looks like it couldn't be better, and yet here will be a rather prominent star sitting there, and we can't find it anymore.
		So there seems to be a case of a star that really did just disappear.
		And what in the world could be going on there, no one knows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I would like to get to the telephones, if I could.
		We have a lot of people who'd like to talk to you, Doctor.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I'm in the show.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's fine by me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		Let's get to a few questions.
		Wildcard Line 3, good evening.
		You're on the air in Las Vegas with Michael Swords.
		Dr. Michael Swords.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, hello, Art and Michael Swords.
unidentified		I've got kind of a two-part question.
		First, with the so-called technology that these aliens have, how come they're crashing on, you know, like Roswell?
		And the second part of the question is: are these people forcibly being told to keep quiet, maybe, you know, due to threat of personal injury or scandal or that type of thing?
		Are it now always and off the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure.
		I have your second.
		The second part of it, what people are you referring to, sir?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the people of Roswell.
		Oh, I see.
		You're witnesses and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		That is a good question.
		Thank you.
		First of all, Doctor, his question, if they have all this technology, why are they crashing?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		From what I can tell from looking at the literature of crashes, it's probably only been one crash.
		The second thing I would say is that we've got a lot of pretty clever technology, too, and we make all kinds of foul-ups.
		I would assume that Murphy will continue to live in outer space for time immemorial.
		The third thing is it's suggested that the Roswell event occurred during a rather large high-voltage thunderstorm.
		It could possibly be that this thing merged into that without really knowing that it could get electronic glitches in it by a direct strike.
		But the fourth thing to really say is, well, why sit around and speculate when we don't know what their technology is?
		Let's just go with the empirical evidence.
		As we find this empirical evidence, seems to indicate something very strange crashed.
		Now, as far as that other selection was concerned about the people being threatened or threatened or not, there's a lot of evidence that people were threatened in Roswell, and especially the civilians, very severely threatened, kind of embarrassingly threatened from your and my viewpoint as an American.
		Like, we wouldn't do that to the citizens, but they, of course, are now just angry at this stage in life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you say there's a lot of evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you give an example when you say there's evidence they were threatened?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		For example, what?
		Well, let's say you could go to perhaps six or eight people down in the Roswell area right now and ask them what had happened with their father and mother or themselves, if they're very much of an oldster still around,
		that caused them to have all this nervousness after this event was over, and they will tell you all, even though they don't know one another necessarily, that they got these similar messages from the government telling them that they were not supposed to talk to them or there was going to be harm done to their family, and in the case of the parents to the children, or the people are going to be taken away, and they're never standing in.
		I mean, outrageous bounding stuff.
		As far as the military people are concerned, the military people mostly don't feel threatened.
		They just simply feel that they have made a personal duty vow and that they're not going to break it.
		And that since their commanding officer is now dead, why you safely can't find someone who will be able to relieve them of their vow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Presume for a moment all of this is true.
		The government is covering it up.
		They know.
		If you personally had all of the evidence you needed and you could have a news conference and you could beyond any shadow of a doubt announce to the world that, oh, yes, it's real.
		Oh, yes, they've been here.
		Here's the proof.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Would you release it?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I might give that question that bombs through my mind quite a bit because there's about 12 or 15 different reasons why you might not want to release it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		And all these things have involved some pretty serious stuff about government reaction, per-people reaction, economic reaction, etc., to these things.
		And I might possibly give the government one last chance to explain to me why I should release it.
		Try to get in contact with them and say, this is something I've got.
		Of course, I'd protect myself on that, but I might give them one last shot to try to explain to me why I shouldn't be doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if they were to produce studies that showed you that the American people would black birds poorly, that it would be disruptive of the entire social structure, that religion would be in danger of collapse and so forth, would that be enough?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		If they could prove that to me, I think I'd swallow it.
		But it's my belief that they can't prove that to me.
		Richard Hall has recently asked a bunch of us to write some essays on this exact topic, and I've gone down through the whole list of things, and I could see their reasoning for not wanting to release the information.
		I think right now we're at a stage where probably releasing the information would be the better thing to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have we been in a period of time with all of these motion pictures and all the rest of it, and even this type of show, where we are in efforts preparing the American people to receive that information without going off the deep end?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Unless yes and no on that.
		Shows like yours probably yes for most of the speakers on the show, but the no part is the abductions part.
		And unless people like John Mack are correct and this is some kind of a benign thing, the Bud Hopkins, David, Jacobs scenario of this thing being kind of horrible is precisely the thing that would not want you to release information that this is real and it's going on and you can get plucked at any time and there'll be a defense against it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Then that brings up another good question.
		With everything you've looked at, would you say this is in all likelihood something that is, as far as we're concerned, horrible if we knew about it, or is it basically benign?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's my guess that, and this is just a guess, and for goodness sakes, don't rate this as anything more important than one person's opinion.
		But the guess is that because human beings do not seem to have been deliberately harmed in some physical way, Now, admittedly, there are some possible exceptions to that in some of the claimed cases, but I still think that some of that stuff is pretty loose as far as the claims.
		But I would say that the worst case scenario that I see so far would be of some self-centered group of individuals, EPs or whatever, that were using human emotions in some kind of a way, but did not intend any kind of a permanent harm to the host.
		And so because we have been able to live with the shadow of the atomic bomb hanging over our head, I'm not clearly so sure that we could live with the shadow of this hanging over our head, knowing that we're going to get up in the morning and take a number of a new after a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, plus I suppose the conjecture that if they have this technology and meant us harm, we'd be harmed.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, unless for some reason they want some other kind of thing out of us first and then still would be looking for harm afterwards.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		There's always a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Line one, good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Swords, who is in Michigan.
unidentified		Well, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Heard, it's very interesting that you brought that particular part up.
unidentified		It wasn't exactly what I called about, but I had a chance to talk to my grandmother a while back who remembers the night of the War of the Worlds radio show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I think the biggest answer to your question about why they don't tell anybody is look at the reaction to that.
unidentified		I mentioned that to you once before, but the interesting information that I didn't have on that at that time was that people were killing themselves and killing their children because they really thought that these beings were visiting Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, if you ever heard that radio show, it was awful.
		I mean, they were zapping people, eating people.
		It was not a benign visit.
		So that was then, and that is an interesting subject.
		I'll ask the doctor about it in a moment.
unidentified		The thing on that, though, that I want to elaborate on is that, yeah, maybe the times have changed and our technology has gotten a little bit better.
		But human nature is human nature.
		I mean, if I were out in the, and it seems really funny to me that the only people that really get a chance to experience this kind of stuff is Billy Joe Bob, who lives, you know, out in Boofu land.
		The thing that really drops me about say human nature is human nature.
		He's going to feel, I need to protect myself.
		I've got a gun, bang, or, you know, whatever else.
		I can't really tell you of very many people who are going to sit back with open arms and say, come on in, have some tea, tell me about where you're from, and that sort of thing.
		I think people are going to be really on the defensive.
		And as far as, you know, all the movies coming out in this radio show, I really think that these kind of things can desensitize people on a lot of issues, but I don't think this is one of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, do you have a specific question?
unidentified		Well, I would like him to comment on that.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We will do that.
		Thank you.
		Doctor, I guess he's saying that you can't be desensitized really on this issue, nor can you be prepared.
		And he points to that radio broadcast.
		Indeed, that was a big disaster.
		And I wonder if a decision, for example, in Washington to keep all this silent might be based on that catastrophe, which is possibly one of the best studies of what human beings would think.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The government's perfectly aware of the Orson Welles broadcast situation, and in fact, it figures in a couple of studies that were made by them to ask questions about the response to just the general question of the meaning of extraterrestrials.
		I think with all due respect that the young gentleman's facts on what went on in New Jersey are wrong.
		The extent of the damage there were basically automobile accidents and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a lot of suicide, people killing their children.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		My reading of the situation, there was, I would say none of that, but let's be open and say little or none of that.
		I don't believe that any of that went on.
		In terms of what kind of people are done, you can all these Billy Joe Bob out in Code Dunk.
		We know of people all up and down the socioeconomic spectrum and through all the races.
		And it's a wide mix of people who are coming in and talking about this.
		One of the guys who makes the rounds is Dr. John Tudd, who is from, I believe, South Dakota State University.
		And here's a guy who took almost a totally intellectual approach.
		He's a great experience all the way through.
		I do think it's true that there is going to be a significant segment of the American people who are very anxiety prone.
		And you can't desensitize them to that.
		And that I think is right.
		But I think, on the other hand, we have been, as I mentioned before, living under a threat that is at least as horrifying as this, namely the hydrogen bomb, for a couple of decades now.
		And somehow or other, although it sparred us, we've managed to go about our business.
		So I think that the theory's out as to what the impact of this would be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, hold on just one second while I do a station ID and we'll be right back.
		You're listening to Area 2000.
		My guest this week is Michael D. Swartz.
		Dr. Michael D. Swartz.
		He looks into other people's research in these areas and is a fascinating individual, which you should know by now.
		If you would like to make a comment, the only line I have open is one local line that we just cleared at 383-8255 or 8255.
unidentified		War.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From Jankee Gonz Pleaser downtown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is KDWN Las Vegas.
unidentified		KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		This is Area 2000 on the air every Sunday evening from 8 until 10 o'clock.
		Happy to be with you.
unidentified		Back in a moment to Dr. Swords.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no.
		Back right now to Dr. Swords.
		Doctor, you're back on the air again.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there are a bunch of people that want to speak with you, so let's keep moving through these calls.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Swords, who is in Michigan.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is Fitz from Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Los Angeles, all right.
unidentified		Just correction.
		The previous caller said there was mass panic.
		Yes, it was a disaster in 1938 for the Orton Wellshore, but there was nobody killed.
		Like Dr. Swartz said, there were a few accidents and a few handful of strokes.
		Some people got excited, but it was not a mass panic like everybody said.
		But it is true that the government and the Air Force, way back in Dr. Menfel's time, used this as a barometer.
		They said, well, there was this incident in New York, and then there was another copycat somewhere in Europe, in a Latin country, where they had also Orthodox War, a copycat type, well, people will be in Berserk.
		And so they used this as a barometer, and they said, hey, the people are not ready, et cetera, et cetera.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a specific question?
unidentified		So there's a film coming out now from Russia called Cosmic Dutch Secret by a producer, his name is Avinsky, where the Russian scientists and ufologists exchanging information with our ufologists.
		And a major is interviewed there where he will claim that alleged two Russian soldiers standing guard were abducted and that also a UFO was shooting at an antenna on a radar station.
		I don't know if that the search is aware of it, but this film should come out very soon here and make the sickles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you aware of that film, Doctor?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I'm not, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Billy's not.
unidentified		Well, it will make the sickles eventually, but the Russians are testing on now and finds they have the freedom of speech in some way that they're hiding your research.
		But the more open-minded than we are, they really are hungry for knowledge, and they have less fear than we are.
		We have a coverage on fear, an umbrella of fear, because we've been so conditioned that we think of somehow Russian people embrace the ET contact.
		They're not just more information.
		They're hungry for the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks, Fritz.
		And that is a good subject.
		Linda Howe was in Europe a few weeks ago, Doctor, and there is, or there does seem to be, a very distinctly different attitude through Europe, and I suppose in Russia and elsewhere, than there is in this country.
		How do you account for the, I don't want to say unnatural interest, but greater interest in America in this subject?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think that we're not getting a very correct view of what the Europeans and the Russians really have in terms of interest.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		After all, what do you have?
unidentified		You have a few U.S. researchers going over there.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Naturally, the people they're meeting with are the people who are most interested in UFOs.
		They're going to put on their most positive views on the thing, especially the Russians do that because the Russians not only want to make linkages with the U.S. researchers, but they also want us to help support their research because Russia is so destitute for money.
		The major institutions over there at the Soviet Union for real vote research ends up every time, and I understand this, and they voted against them, but they end up every time asking you for money at the end of their letters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hard currency pleas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		And I don't think that I would say that if anything, in Europe, that there's much less interest in UFOs, that the tendency of the people who study UFOs in several of those countries is to view the thing as a psychosociological phenomenon.
		In fact, that's the heartland of that particular theory about UFOs.
		I don't think, I would say that if there is an unusual interest in the Soviet Union, it might be because they've just gone through so many decades of atheistic imperialism and that this is kind of a religion substitution for them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But other than that, I think the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Swords.
		Hello there.
		Line two, you're on the air with Dr. Swords.
unidentified		Good evening.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Hello.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I just want to tell you I really like your show, Wynnette.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I've been listening for years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yeah.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		And I've got a couple questions for the doctor.
		First, one is on abductions.
		And the question I have is, what does your research show far as abductions through tensible items far as walls, canvas, tents, etc.?
		And the second is, have you done any research far as an area 51 in Nevada?
		I've done some of my own research up in that area, and it's been very, I can't really say the word for it, but I've seen a lot of weird things up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, let's go to Area 51, if you would.
		It's just to the north of us here.
		And I wonder what sort of, you know, there's been a lot of documentation and research about this area.
		Some people speculate there are disks up there and so forth and so on.
		What have you learned about that?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		As far as the more spectacular kinds of claims are concerned, I haven't yet been very impressed with those because of the very fragmentary nature of the information and to some degree the aspersions that have been cast on some of the people delivering it.
		But in terms of there being a lot of weird stuff in the air over there, I don't think anybody doubts that.
		Aviation Space Technology Magazine is constantly documenting very high performance envelope vehicles that are flying over Nevada.
		And To me, if I take that as the baseline of my information and I look back through time, I think that what they're flying out there is spectacular, but I don't think it's beyond the direction of the technology that you see just prior to that, that real good old-fashioned U.S. technical magic rather than extraterrestrial technical magic.
		So I haven't seen anything yet in the Area 15 idea that would lead me to believe that we have to have UFOs and back-engineered alien technology out there, although I've heard the rumors like everyone else has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it certainly might be the place to take it if you had it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, what was your first question, please?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		First question was on far as abductions through tangible items such as houses and walls or tents, that kind of thing in remote areas.
		Getting back on as far as Area 51, I want to ask Dr. Farris if you had any observations as far as anything as far as pulses in the area, as far as like laser-type items.
		I've seen whole mountain ranges lighted up in that area with a fucking magnitude of 10 miles across in depth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've heard from some of the people on the aircraft side of the front that the engines of the so-called pulsar craft are so great that when they turn on, that they light up the whole area around.
		So, again, I think that it's not just sounding like it's a laser effect.
		It's nothing like it's a significant of a big engine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm going to tell you, about two weeks ago, I'm 48 years old, Doctor.
		I've never seen a UFO.
		Two weeks ago, I saw something I absolutely could not explain, though I think it might have been an experimental aircraft.
		On my way home, a large triangular craft passed about 150 feet above me.
		It was actually lit up.
		It had what appeared to be anti-collision lights, two white lights, one red light at each point of the triangle, and that's what it was, Doctor.
		It was a perfect triangle, and at about an altitude of, I'd estimate 150 feet, passed above me, making not even a sound.
		I had my automobile stop.
		You could hear crickets a quarter mile away.
		I mean, there was no sound at all.
		And it just passed above me.
		Now, I live in a valley just adjacent to Area 51, and my presumption is I saw some sort of incredible experimental aircraft.
		I have no idea what it was, but it was low enough and slow enough, I would describe it almost as floating, that it absolutely simply is nothing that I know that we have.
		It was remarkable, Doctor, remarkable.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Now, I'm impressed with that kind of a thing because, first of all, if you're a credible witness seeing something fairly close, it's a good close encounter of a first-kind report, and it matches the pattern of the so-called Belgian triangles that were researched so well by the Belgian government a few years back.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's almost precisely the same description that was given for the objects that appeared quite often over a several-month period in Belgium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know what I saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I was pressed to the wall, Doctor, I would say that I saw some sort of experimental aircraft.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Most people feel that they have to the crux of the thing is that if what you saw was the same kind of an object that was in Belgium, then the key thing is that the Belgian radar reports,
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		which show an extremely rapid direction and upward acceleration that should have produced more g-forces than a pilot could have taken, and do seem to be a little out of the performance envelope that we would expect from a current technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little out is putting it oddly, and I'm still thinking very hard about that encounter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just thought I would take that moment to.
unidentified		Mr. Assmann.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, line three, you're on the air with Dr. Swords in Michigan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening.
		I think everything gives me one point to make believe people that there will be alive after death.
		And this is not true.
		All those people who believe in the UFO, those are the same people who talk all the time about Jesus and his mother.
		They have seen those people, they see Jesus and his mother in different kinds of places, like in Siguria, like in Poland, like in Libya.
		And this is absolutely not true.
		You need children to tell them those kind of stupid stories about life after death and about Jesus' life and his mother alive and you of all.
		And you make it a propaganda now, like in Tegru, like mushrooms after the rain, after the corruption by the Soviet Union.
		So they try to make people believe in both stupid ideas and both stupid lies.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
		Now, in that man, Doctor, I just left him on because I wanted to hear it, and I wanted you to hear it.
		There are a lot of people who react, just like that man does, to this information.
		They may make the best case for never releasing it.
		There's anger, hostility, and I have this feeling that if the information ever came out, that man would be on the warpath.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was a very quiet sound coming to me, and so all I could get from that is that this is a gentleman who was completely located complaining about pleasant Mary Virgin things like that.
		Yeah, what I would say is that we've always had an element in society that needed some very simplistic grounding or they become somewhat unhinged.
		And things are going to happen.
		When we walk on the moon, this kind of a person is either going to go into a state of denial that it never happened or it's going to have some kind of a life crisis.
		The same thing is going to be true if Carol Sagan gets any extraterrestrial signals, if the Darwinian theory of evolution sounds like it's better, or whatever.
		So we can't protect that element of the population against new things happening, and I still don't think that it's a useful reason to deny full information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, nevertheless, perhaps not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, is there any way of estimating what percentage of people in the population would react as that man seemed to be?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The problem is if you were talking to a psychologist that looked at statistical data, allow me to reflect on something that might shast some light on that, but it wouldn't do exactly the same thing.
		When you look at the way in which human nervous systems are geared, you find that about 1% of the human species is geared at such a high level that they can't even get their thought processes to go straight, and we end up calling them things like schizophrenia.
		If you boil that down to the next stage of the curve, you might say that there's between, say, 5 or 6% or so of the population that might be so highly wired that they're anxiety-prone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that adds up to a lot of people these days.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It does add up to a lot of people, but there's no way to protect that group of people from the fact that life goes on.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		And so I would say that you let life go on and you don't try to cushion things and hide them because if things get worse and then they do break, you've just made a bigger problem.
unidentified		Gee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor.
		Good evening.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Swords on Area 2000.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Doctor.
		Hello.
		I have a question for you, and well, the question is, have you noticed or is there any research being done on what seems to have changed the physiognomy of the women of mainly Western Europe and North and South America?
unidentified		And I have some examples.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, go ahead with your example.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, for instance, the arms of women since roughly the mid-70s have become very long, and their hands are either very narrow with long fingers or large hands, thick fingers.
		The facial structure seems to have stabilized in a very angular dimension, and the mouth has widened.
		The features are becoming very close-set, and the length of the leg is becoming long, and also its sides is becoming very narrow, very slender.
		Where does this information come from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've got the same question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where did you get this, sir?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		This is just observation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Now, this seems to be the type of female, which seems to be mainly in the U.S., like I said, in North and South America and Western Europe, this seems to be becoming a very dominant feature, especially the legs and the arms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Doctor, do you concur with any of those observations?
		Oh, I'm afraid we're going to have to get Dr. Swords back.
		All right, caller, I appreciate it.
		We're going to have to find out if he concurs with any of that.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Take a look at the beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take a look at the beach.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The next time you look, well, say, at movies from, say, roughly 1960 to date, when they show crowd scenes or women at the beach, et cetera, not the actresses, but just general women, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's becoming real striking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never even heard such a thing suggested before.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Try it.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Try it and see, and you'll begin to notice certain features are becoming standard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you think that's just something you're noticing, or do you think it's actually some sort of, you know, real change that's gone on?
unidentified		Well, from what I've seen, it seems to be a genuine genetic change.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I'm not talking surgical alteration either.
		Because who in their right mind would have, for instance, the muscles in their calves reduced?
		And how would you narrow someone's hand without cutting away so much musculature that you couldn't close your hand?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good point, Caller.
		Very good point.
		And, Doctor, we've got you back now.
		I saw this caller, the same caller on the line.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he's, again, he's saying that he's noticing all of these changes in women.
		Do you concur with any of that at all?
		Thank you, Caller.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm afraid I don't.
		I was saying before the gremlins got into the works of the phone company here, I don't know what you make of that because I watch women just as much as anyone else, I suppose.
		And I haven't noticed, except perhaps, if he's sitting around watching the shapes of actresses and models, which could possibly be changing to the fashion of some sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Line two, good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Swords, who's in Michigan.
		Dart?
unidentified		Yes.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is Sam against Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're only allowed to make one call.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I understand that, all right, everyone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, thank you then for the call.
		And good evening.
		Out of state, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Swords, who's in Michigan.
unidentified		Chris, when do you think the government will reveal to the American people that there are actually UFOs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		Good bubbling.
		Doctor, any comment on that?
		When might they reveal it, or what might provoke them to reveal it?
		Or can they be pushed into it?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, all of us that are interested in the Roswell case are constantly trying to think of something productive along those lines all the time.
		I certainly don't believe that marching with tickets out in front of the White House asking for Bill Clinton to come teen is going to do it.
		I think, in fact, if anything, that's a negative way of going about things because it puts it into kind of a non-serious light, I think, in most people's mind and actually causes negative pressure.
		If there were another couple of major breaks of the security people, then perhaps the combination of what's already known on Roswell and, say, a current guardian of the black box that contains this stuff would come through with something.
		But if you don't have a major meeting of some kind, I don't see any incentive for the government to make any major documentary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there may be more on the social side that dictates you wouldn't reveal it unless you had to, I suppose.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It has been stated by some experts in the past that if you've got a situation that has essentially nothing on the positive side except sobbing the curiosity of a few American citizens, then you've got a whole lot potentially on the negative side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't run any risk.
		Absolutely, and that's what it would seem to add up to.
		Line three, you're on the air with Dr. Swords.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Is that me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you.
		I was on my way home, and I heard this discussion, and it must have been at least 20 years ago.
		It might have been a little longer than that.
		I remember my husband came home with a book, and it was called Chariots of the Gods.
		Has the doctor ever heard of this book?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I suspect so.
		Thank you.
		Doctor, what about that?
		Chariots of the Gods?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's talking about a thing that's made Eric von Daniken, a multi-millionaire, of course.
		Eric von Daniken actually did the concept of ancient astronauts a disservice.
		There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea that you could have had extraterrestrial visitations of ancient times and that these particular visitations would have affected the cultures in terms of the making of their buildings or, more likely, the sculpting of their mythology.
		But since Eric von Daniken played so fast in the loose with the facts and made such horrendous errors and howling zingers throughout his books, he took what was a potentially respectable theory and completely ran the entire scholarly community off of it.
		At one time, even Carl Sagan, prior to Von Danikin's input, even Carl Sagan had broached a chariots of the gods type hypothesis and a famous search for extraterrestrial intelligence textbook that he wrote.
		And of course, Carl Sagan wouldn't be caught dead uttering anything about that now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big flap going on now about Mars, about the Explorer, the loss of the Explorer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What feedback are you getting on that, Doctor?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The feedback that I'm getting is that NASA just screwed up.
		And that we sat back a couple of years ago and left it up and called the Soviets a bunch of goons for pushing the wrong button on their Phobos probe.
		And now we've apparently made not a computer error, but a mechanical error.
		And that there's some sort of a transistor that has been known to have failed in a couple of other space before that was also put back into this thing.
		And if it failed again, like it has failed before, we would have lost contact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That, though, it seems so unlikely.
		If you had a transistor that had failed in one craft, surely you would put it through its paces.
		You'd already experienced a large financial loss as a result of it.
		Why would you put it in yet another craft?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It started failing the rings on that shuttle before we let one blow up, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		We're capable of any amount of stupidity because the organization is so big that it doesn't keep big traffic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Michael Swords, who is in Michigan.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently not.
		Line two, you're on the air with Dr. Swords.
		Good evening.
unidentified		It's about that, the World News thing.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Those are hoaxes, those pictures on there.
unidentified		They just want to sell, you know, one shot out of the bag of Derby.
unidentified		They're all hoaxes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me.
		I'm very well aware of their reputation.
		The only question for the doctor?
unidentified		Well, we'll fail up a week of a weird world.
unidentified		We're wolf.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Dr. Michael B. Swords, who is in Michigan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Santa Ana, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santa Ana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes.
		I just wanted to say that I really think they should disclose any information that they have on UFOs.
		I feel like I should have the right to know, and I want to know.
		And I feel like, I don't know, maybe it would do some good for a lot of people if they knew that there was something more than or something bigger than us beyond this planet.
		Something to strive for, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess that has to be balanced against what the doctor said about what the reaction would be among, say, 5% of the population or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it sounds as though you're looking forward to it.
unidentified		Yeah, and I think that the 95% should outweigh that 5%.
unidentified		I think most people would welcome it, and it would do wonders for, I don't know, I guess just our whole outlook on things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Thank you, ma'am.
		Just a comment, Doctor.
		She thinks the 95% would benefit far more than the 5% that would go around the corner.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Of course, we don't know about 95% or 5%.
		We don't know what people are thinking, but the government has already tried to play that mind game, too, and see how that came out.
		And what the Brookings Institute said in their report to NAFA was that when a superior culture and an inferior culture intimately meet, and so that there's a genuine sharing of information between them,
		the inferior culture almost always dies in terms of a self-ordaining kind of a culture and becomes just an appendix sucking in whatever it gets from its now big brother and doesn't any further develop on its own.
		So that as Carl Jung, the famous Swedish Swiss psychologist, was supposed to have gotten this information while talking to an Amazonian shaman, the Amazonian shaman said back to Jung, you have stolen all our dreams.
		And so the happy thought of us having this wonderful new possibility out there might well be very negative as far as the independent development of the human race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line three, you're on the air with me.
unidentified		Eric, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing well, sir.
unidentified		Need more time for these shows, but anyway, real quick.
		I'm just curious that been trying to get that shuttle off the ground.
		Is that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is now off the ground.
unidentified		Well, it did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it did successfully launch.
unidentified		Oh, finally, yeah.
unidentified		I was just curious if that had anything to do with that screw-ups, or they were just pressured by people from the unknown that they didn't want it to launch or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it's up, sir.
unidentified		Ah, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Out of state very quickly as we run out of time for Dr. Michael Fords in Michigan.
		Good evening.
		Line one, good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Art and Doctor.
		I'll try to make this fast, but I know time is running out.
		First of all, Doctor, have you ever heard of Noah Fredericks, who is a biblical and UFO researcher?
		And then I have a second part for the question.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I have not.
unidentified		Okay.
		He basically believes that UFOs have been around even before biblical time in history.
		And my question is to do with the finger formation of alien descriptions.
		If you ran every description on a computer, do you know how many or if many came up with six fingers?
		And the reason I'm asking, the other day when I was doing my own biblical research, I found that in 1 Chronicles 20th chapter, verse 6, they mention a being with six fingers and six toes.
		He's of large stature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm sorry.
		Time just about gone.
		Doctor, any response?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, humanoids are almost always described as having under four or five fingers and not dead.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Sores, we really could use a whole lot more time for this subject.
		We only get, however, two hours.
		And as I do with most of my guests, particularly you, since you look into everybody else's research, I would like to have you back sometime.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it has been a distinct pleasure, and you're an easy interview, and I thank you.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the affordable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, good evening, sir.
unidentified		Dr. Michael.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, thank you.
		I'm afraid that in everybody, we operate as close as we can to what's going on here at your plant, so that's going to do it.
		Remember, if you have any information at all that you would like check out, anything you would like to look into, the Bigelow Foundation has the ability and has the resources to accomplish that, and I urge you to call them.
		Their number is coming up now, and we'll see you again next week at 8 o'clock.
		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects.
		UFO for near-birth and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.
		Area code 702-456-1606.
		Ask for Angela Thompson.
		That's Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And be with us next Sunday evening at 8 for another edition of Area 2000.

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