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Sept. 12, 1993 - Art Bell

01:47:13

Area 2000 with Art Bell - Michael Sorez, Broad Discussions

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art bell

29:18

george knapp

06:42

linda moulton howe

14:21

michael sorez

47:13

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		The following program is made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m.
		and 5 p.m.
		at area code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at area code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening!
		Welcome to another Area 2000.
		Area code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening. Welcome to another Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		And as usual, we've got a full plate this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got our roving journalist, George Knapp, and way back in Philadelphia, this time at the airport, Linda Howe, just arriving back home with her glimpses of other realities.
		And then it'll be Dr. Michael D. Swords, and this morning's major subject, I guess, is going to be UFOs, but his education, his Uh, interest goes into the parasciences as well.
		So we're gonna be just moving all over the place this morning.
		Uh, this evening.
		You're never gonna be able to get that straight.
		Maybe in, uh, four or five years.
		At any rate, uh, good evening, everybody.
		We'll try and start it on the, uh, right note.
		Let's find out what's new in the world of UFOs this week, and what's coming up, and for that, of course, a roving journalist, George Knapp.
		George, good evening.
		Welcome to the program.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Well, this week we begin our UFO newscast with things that did not happen, which is sort of, as you know, the bane of what news is supposed to be, which is all too appropriate in this crazy field.
		The first thing that did not happen is communication with the Mars Observer.
		NASA says the craft is either orbiting Mars, spinning toward deep space, or blown up.
		Take your pick.
		It really doesn't matter much to those who were waiting for information from that probe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it now declared an absolute lost cause?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		I think you've got people who are still hanging on that think that something might snap to life and that they still may get some information, I think.
		You know, realistically, that's a pretty long shot.
		However, NASA has now appointed a team of experts to evaluate the possibility of another probe to the Red Planet, what it'll take, what the objective should be, and the ubiquitous Carl Sagan is on this panel, so we can almost rest assured, I think, that investigation of the Cydonia region, which is of primary interest, I think, to people interested in UFO and alien research, will not be a high priority on that next probe mission, assuming it ever happens at all.
		The second thing that did not happen is the big UFO event in New Mexico.
		As we have mentioned on previous programs, former government psychics ...had predicted a major event in New Mexico in the month of August.
		They stake their professional reputations on this prediction, and unless you and I are to admit something on the newswire, their prediction was wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George, you didn't say government psychics, did you?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, they did.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		They work for the government, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You elaborate on... I had no idea we had government psychics.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we do.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		I think your first guess on your first program was probably more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Psychics is not perhaps the best term, but remote viewers is the term I think that's used in defense circles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's what caught me.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Sure, they don't want to publicize it a great deal because that would be the sort of thing that would attract budget cutters looking for headlines.
		But yeah, they take it pretty seriously.
		Anyway, these folks had left government service and formed their own company in New Mexico.
		And that they stake their professional reputations on this prediction of a big UFO event, but there's been no UFO landing, no mass abductions, no spaceships zapping cacti, nothing.
		As we warned our listeners long ago, these types of UFO predictions come and go, and almost none of them amount to anything over the years.
		The real question in the wake of this is, why do these folks stick their necks out so far on such a prediction?
		What it means for the credibility of the ongoing remote viewer program run by the Department of Defense and And could this be another example of disinformation orchestrated by certain intelligence authorities to discredit or otherwise belittle UFO research in general?
		I'd be curious on Linda Howell's views on this stuff when you talk to her a little bit later.
		Art, we apparently have some pretty avid listeners in Clear Lake, California, and we'd like to say hello to them tonight.
		As we reported last week, Clear Lake is experiencing another wave of UFO sightings at present.
		It's nothing new, we're told, rather than say the same sort of weird lights and crafts have been seen there for almost 40 years.
		It's kind of comparable to Fife, Alabama, which has had these periodic UFO episodes for as long as anyone can remember in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, are there more of them lately, George?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is Clear Lake suddenly in the news?
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Only because the very efficient Angela Thompson has been following up the story and has been passing along the information to me.
		I think they have flaps every couple of years or so, and they're in the middle of one right now.
		The newspaper in Clear Lake has mentioned the program, Area 2000, in connection with its coverage of the UFO flap, and, hey, Clear Lake, give us a call and let us know what's going on up there.
		An update on the situation in Russia.
		As we have reported previously, we managed to obtain some material from alleged Russian UFO landing sites during our journey there earlier this year.
		The material, which consists of some strange glycerin-looking nodules, we got it from two so-called landing sites, UFO landing sites, in the middle of nowhere.
		Russian scientists we talked to were unable to figure out what the stuff was.
		We managed to, to put it subtly, retrieve some of this, get it out of the country.
		We sent it to a very respected University-connected lab here in the U.S.
		for analysis.
		I've not yet received the final written report, but did speak to the research team leader.
		The bottom line is, they don't know what it is either.
		This Russian doctor that we had spoken with had speculated he thought it might be some sort of cosmic feeding operation, and if you'll pardon the expression, some kind of like outer space sperm.
		However, the lab told us that whatever this stuff is, It does not appear to be biological.
		It's not a seed, as we know seeds.
		The mystery persists because the experts were unable to tell us what it is, where it came from, why it was found in two separate sites.
		There's a mile apart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will you get a chemical breakdown eventually?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I still hope so.
unidentified		I hope for it to be reproduced in nature.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		They are speculating that it might have something to do with lightning.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		When we get the final lab report on the material, we certainly will share it with our listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't want to tell us how you got it out of Russia?
unidentified		No, because I'm going to have to go back there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All righty.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		The story is about a UFO movie centered on Las Vegas scientist Bob Lazar, our crew.
		There has been considerable speculation about whether this matter was going to come to the big screen in UFO circles anyway.
		Lazar has outreached an agreement with New Line Cinema Uh, no word yet on when the cameras will roll.
		A side note for Lodara's many critics, she did not initiate this here.
		The movie seems to stand the test.
		In fact, in the past half century, all we've seen so far concerning her story, already it has become apparent that some people out there don't want the movies to be made.
		Some junior UFO investigators have been scouring the country looking for, in their words, dirt on Lodara, with the intention of sending that dirt on to the movie people and scuttling the project.
		Uh, lots of luck to us, but it isn't going to happen.
		The movie will.
		Finally, the initial reports from last week were true.
		The Clark County Library series of UFO lectures and films is sold out.
		In fact, all the tickets for two months worth of programs were gone in two days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		This happened despite, as you know, our continued ridicule from other media here in Las Vegas, blind skepticism from science, Concerning UFOs, I think there is an appreciation that regular people feel this topic is important.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Regular people want to know what's going on, and I think your program really fills an important niche in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And clearly, interest in it is growing quickly.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right.
		I had a chance to talk to Dr. John Mack of Harvard a couple of months ago, and he feels there's a quickening of the interest in this.
		Sure hope so.
		that the visitors, aliens or whatever, know may be responsible for something of the sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why our papers are in there.
		Well, that's excellent, George.
		That really does teach me that.
		Now that page, I think, is very...
		That page with the more legitimate...
		Researchers will begin to look into all of this and maybe we have a chance of really getting somewhere
		shortly.
george knapp ▲ ● ▼		Sure hope so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		all right george wonderful hearing from you as always Thank you.
		That's George Knapp.
		With a lot to say this morning, and of particular interest, those materials that he got out of Russia.
		And on another note that he mentioned, when we do get a little further into the program and get to a telephone segment, I too would like to ask if anybody in Clear Lake who can tap us up on what's going on over there would give us a call.
		I'm glad to know they're listening.
		Nice to hear they mentioned us in the Clear Lake newspaper.
		All right.
		Uh, time for a glimpse into another reality.
		That would be our Linda Howe, who, uh, I understand is at the airport, or near the airport, at an airport inn or something of that order, and, uh, is doing a lot of traveling, so I guess we'll find out what she's been up to right now.
		Glimpses of other realities, it comes from Linda Howe, now back in Philadelphia.
		Good evening, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I spent the day in Rye, New Hampshire, which is up near Portsmouth and Exeter.
		For those listening who are familiar with the Betty and Barney Hill abductions case, it was up in that area that that famous first abduction occurred.
		This was the annual New Hampshire MUFON conference.
		It occurs on a day, on a Sunday, has for the last three years, and this day there were nearly 600 people in the audience.
		It was one of our press attendants, which several people, including John Mack, one of the speakers,
		he and I at lunch were talking about the fact that the grassroot interest in the phenomena seems to be growing
		conference to conference.
		The general audience is getting larger.
		And today, the people who did speak were John Mack and Richard Hoagland,
		and I'll talk a little bit about what he had to say about Mars in a second,
		myself, Colin Andrews and Klopfer, both, and David Jacobs.
		Most of these people you've had on the program in the last couple of months.
		But I will start with a recap of what I think were some very important points that Dr. Maas made to set the day off in what everyone agreed was the focus of the conference and will continue to be probably the focus of Much of our work in the coming years, and Dr. Maas put it in those ways, other realities, glimpses of other realities is where we are headed with all of this phenomenon because it is not just simply the extraterrestrial biological entity that we're dealing with.
		There appears to be other dimensional aspects to it.
		And in that context, he said that he's now studied 76 UFO abduction cases And has found an interesting evolution that he has been surprised in terms of the nature and complexity of the evolution of abductees themselves if they hang in there with him as a psychiatrist.
		That's his background.
		He's a psychologist at Harvard and working with hypnosis and has seen them go through terrific fear, terrific anger.
		Many people feel like that they have been raped.
		by some kind of a physical entity or being or taken against their will or all kinds of physical violations that manifest in terrible trauma.
		As he said, he has never in his years as a psychiatrist seen the kind of trauma that he has seen when he has worked with the abductees in hypnosis.
		And yet, he said that in many cases now, If they hang in there and they continue to work together, they seem to come to a point, some kind of a breakthrough, and they pass the fear, they pass the trauma, they end up with a new sense that the abduction experience is concerned with the evolution of their spiritual life in some way.
		And in that context, he has found, and this has shocked him as a psychiatrist, he said it was very difficult for him in the beginning when these episodes began coming out.
		And that would be an abductee who under hypnosis trying to deal with the abduction experience
		is being taken back to their birth trying to find out where these experiences begin
		and is suddenly apparently in another life.
		And in another life the same beings or beings that look like the ones that were involved
		in the abduction in this life are in what appears to be another life.
		And so Dr. Mack himself a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University who four years ago did
		not as he said know what he was getting into and has been finding his own curiosity provoked
		to the point he has studied and worked with 76 people is now finding that the whole idea
		of reincarnated cycles life to life is becoming part of his research and that the same alien
		are in these other lives too, that there's some connection between the alien beings and
		a particular abductee's current life.
		Now, what that is headed toward in terms of understanding the implications of all this
		for the human-alien interaction in the past, present, and future is a huge unknown, and
		I think that there will probably be more and more reports over the next year or two or
		three in this particular area, and I hope to be bringing more information about this
		kind of other aspect of a reality that also touches perhaps into the near-death experiences.
		That's something we don't know yet, but Ken Ring's work certainly suggests that there are parallels between what happens to a duckie and what happens at the moment of death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that is really fascinating, Linda.
		Do you think the two areas of study will somehow merge at some point?
		It sounds like it's possible.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, in my own research, I am exploring both all the time, and Dr. Mack and I and others, we see each other on a somewhat regular basis at conferences, and I think what will continue to happen is we will keep sharing our own research and our insights about all of this, and as we see something that seems to be another insight, I will certainly report it on Area 2000.
		The radio listeners and you and I and George and all of us, I feel like we're all learning together as we move along each week and we really are bringing glimpses of other realities because none of us know the answers and every week something new happens.
		The next speaker was Richard Hoagland and there were two hours of his particular focus of research about Mars and his I guess you would say almost 10 year mission to convince the world that there is an artificially constructed face up there that's a mile long and 1,500 feet high and that it was placed there according to his estimates based on a whole variety of research they've been doing.
		Way before the current cycle of Pennesapien here, let's say in the last 25 or 50,000 years.
		He's placing it back much further than that.
		And he explained that this work that he's been doing on the face on Mars and other structures has now been awarded a major scientific honor in Sweden just in the past week or two.
		Because we believe from the mathematical work that people like Torin in Washington, D.C.
		Errol Torin who works for the Defense Mapping Agency has been involved with research on the mathematical relationships on Mars.
		Mark Carlotto at the Analytical Sciences Corporation in Reddy, Massachusetts has been using computer enhancements to look at this space To look at other objects that are within about 10 miles of this space in a region called Cydonia that appear to be at least pyramidal looking.
		They look sort of like pyramids in these computer enhanced photographs.
		And because the mass, the angles, and the relationships between the face and these pyramid-like structures appear to have consistencies, patterns that repeat over and over and over again, It is reinforcing the idea that Hoagland introduced ten years ago or so in his book work, The Monuments on Mars, that it is artificially constructed and that it is very ancient, that it was something that was there once upon a time and left these huge, gigantic markers on the surface of Mars.
		And the big question is, why?
		Now, he personally stated at the conference today That he has sources that are suggesting, as George has talked about, that the orbiter is actually not in a failure mode but has continued to function on some kind of classified channel because they wanted to get pictures of this region and other regions of Mars secretly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, Linda, I've got to stop you here because somebody faxed me Something that I'm sitting on, and I don't know what to make of it.
		It appeared in a publication called the Weekly World News, September 14th edition.
		It purports to be a rather high-resolution picture of the phase on Mars, and it is absolutely startling.
		And I guess I'm going to have to figure a way to fax it to you or get it to you.
		It comes with a story.
		It says that this was taken on August 20th.
		This August 20th.
unidentified		Well, if it were anything else but the World Weekly News... You'd be ready.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear what you're saying.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Seriously.
		Look, these are problems.
		Problems in all those years.
		We always get leaks here and there, and Hoagland is saying that he's had what he considers to be firmer leaks than just speculation or the Weekly World News.
		that something actually is still functioning on Mars, but that the government does not want us to know anything
		yet until they've had a chance to analyze what's up there.
		Now, I suppose there are two possibilities.
		One is that it is not functioning and we'll never know and they're going to have to relaunch something.
		Or they are getting some kind of data and then somebody's going to have to come up with a
		scenario of how they would reintroduce this lost satellite orbiting
		around Mars so that they might reintroduce some data from a planet
		that we haven't been to since 1976.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Linda, they have been right along suggesting that, you know, they may regain contact, so they're leaving the door open.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that may actually reinforce what Richard Hoagland had to say today in New Hampshire about this new information, that it actually is functioning.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		He also suggested that in December, that there will be a NASA mission To repair the Hubble telescope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And he was indicating that he believed that the mission, the repair mission itself, is also a type of cover-up, that they actually are going to be using that telescope to focus on some kind of multiple asteroid-like objects that are supposed to be coming into the solar system right now and that they want to track on Hubble.
		But what we now have, since this is in September, it's not very long until we get to December.
		We've only got two or three months to see.
		How is information about Mars, the Hubble telescope, asteroids, how is it going to be handled?
		And is there something that is going to come out of all of this that will culminate maybe in the government finally telling us something straight about the whole alien connection?
		That's what I'm hoping will happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I heard the long review.
unidentified		Let me just give you one quick update and then I'll pass it on to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And that is, I got a call Friday before I left for New Hampshire from Dr. Lovingood.
		And we had had a chance to look at the black tissue around the wheat seeds from that enormous 445 foot formation in Trujillo.
		That I talked with you all about, about now three or four weeks ago when I was in England.
		That first night I got to Alston Barnes and this big, enormous, beautiful formation was laid out in that wheat field.
		And he's had a chance to look at what's called the electrical conductivity across the brass tissue of those seeds from inside the formation.
		And says they line up right down the line.
		With a very unusual pattern of electric conductivity and oscillation of this tissue that he has found in the Utica New York formation, the Kennewick Washington formation, and others in Canada, the United States, Australia, and England that fall into another pattern of other anomalous changes in the plant that Dr. Leavengood, a biophysicist, says cannot be helped.
		So, for those caught up in the politics of cynicism out there that are convinced that Doug and Dave, Jim Schnabel and Robert Irving must be making all of these, they're going to have to show Dr. Lovingood and the scientists how they are actually changing the fundamental micro-cyber structure of speed and wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely remarkable.
		Absolutely remarkable.
		I would like to understand a little more of what that means.
		In other words, is there other way, naturally or with what these hoaxsters were
		doing, that this change... it's hard even to know what to ask, and what, in his opinion, could
		have produced this change in the structure, molecular structure?
unidentified		Yeah.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		He did this experiment, devised it, because last year, actually going back 18 months ago,
		he had seen enough changes in the plant that included bending of nodes.
		Plants, wheat should be growing straight.
		And in the formations, and this has been repeated now in many countries for two years, in formations the node will be bent on the ground without cracking at the surface of the earth.
		But six or eight inches out to let's say the first or second growth node, all of a sudden the wheat is taking a 45 or 90 degree angle.
		It is something that cannot be hoaxed.
		It means that there's an actual change in the cell structure of the plant stem and the growth node for the stem to actually take off suddenly into a bend and to have many of those inside of a formation and none of those in the control bead outside.
		That's one particular demonstration of a dramatic change in the formation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's absolutely incredible.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		This is very consistent with his hypothesis was that was one of many changes But he said there's an intense energy that is interacting with the plants and the formations that is affecting the fundamental biochemistry and biophysics of the plants.
		And so he hypothesized, if it wasn't as intense as he was seeing in these other changes, he guessed that it was actually changing the microfibral level of the plant, which would mean down getting close to the cellular level.
		And that's where electrical conductivity would take place across this particular brack tissue.
		I see, so... Yeah, and this experiment was to say he knew how the electrical conductivity would work in control plants, so he said, what would I find out if I did this experiment on plants from the formations?
		Would I see a change?
		And he has seen a consistent change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's some hot information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda Howe, where are you going to be next week?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And we're going to be moving around in the mid part of the country, going west, and by next I will be in Denver and I will give you a number there
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		where I will be and by then I'll also have some new information.
unidentified		Wonderful Linda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay you guys.
		As always, thank you.
		Sure.
		Linda Howe and her glimpses of other realities.
		And in a moment, Dr. Michael D. Swords.
		Stay right where you are.
		You're listening to Area 2000.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonsplezer Downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, everybody.
		This is Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Michael D. Zortz is a professor of natural science at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
		He graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 1962 with a BS degree in chemistry.
		Also holds an M.S.
unidentified		degree from Iowa State University in biochemistry, a Ph.D.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		from Case Western Reserve University.
		His major professional involvements are teaching and writing in the areas of general sciences and anomalous phenomena.
		His teaching centers about human biology, the history and philosophy of science, scientific methodology, and the parasciences, of which ufology or ufology is a member.
		His writings have concentrated mainly on topics in ufology, parapsychology, and cryptozoology, which we'll ask about, and several have been published in the MUFON UFO Journal.
		He has won his university's Teaching Excellence Award in 1978.
		Dr. Swords is a member of several professional and parascientific societies, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Association of University Professors, The Society for Scientific Exploration, and of course, the Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON.
		He serves as a MUFON consultant, and was in the same capacity for the Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization, the International 14 Organization, we'll ask about that too, and is a member of the advisory panel for the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained.
		He is a board member of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, And is the editor of Ufology's academic journal, the Journal of UFO Studies.
		Dr. Swords originally spoke at the MUFON 1986 UFO Symposium in East Lansing, Michigan, a talk for which the current presentation will be an extension.
		He has recently presented materials at the Abductions Conference of Tree 2, as well as the National Science Teachers Association.
		Dr. Swords, May be contacted at the Department of General Studies, Western Michigan University at Kalamazoo.
		And now, Dr. Swords.
		Dr. Swords, good evening.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Hello, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the way to Michigan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am fine and I hope you are as well.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's been interesting listening so far.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that caught my eye about you, Doctor, was I know that you mainly do research into other people's research as opposed Um, conducting your own.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not a case researcher.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, and one of the things that you said, and I'm going to enjoy this, is that you are not a yes-man for anybody's theory.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as a matter of fact, if, uh, if I was given the job of critiquing most of the things that had been talked about on the show so far tonight, I would have to touch a little bit on almost everything, if not quite a bit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
		Well, that's a good, healthy attitude.
		What did you happen to think of what Linda said about the molecular changes in the wheat?
		What doubt would you cast on that offered information?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that is a problem in all UFO research, and it has lopped on over into crop circles research, is that there are not many people actually doing tests So that you have a fellow like Dr. Leavengood, and I have no reason to suspect that Dr. Leavengood is not a very good scientist, but you have him do a piece of research.
		He's not actually on the site himself.
		He doesn't do his own sampling.
		Somebody else does that for him over there and then sends it back to Michigan.
		And then no one else except Dr. Leavengood, who to some degree is working at very long range, rechecks the information.
		So, something like Dr. Levengood's work could be brilliantly correct, but from the point of view of the academic community, since it's such an extraordinary thing, you'd want to have a researcher right on the south doing this stuff and then following in kind of a team research mode all the way through to the data, because it's a matter of trust, after all, whether everything was done properly all the way down the line.
		I don't really have that much negative to say about Leavengood's work.
		I think it's pretty interesting stuff.
		It just needs to be repeated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		well as you've looked into what all these other researchers uh... have been doing
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and i try to ask every guest i have the same question uh... are you personally convinced or do you mean toward
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		the uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		uh... the uh...
		the theory that the or or the fact that we are indeed being visited in other
		words is something really going on uh... in your view of you come to that personal conclusion
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		helping prevent question that that the ufo phenomena entails some
		very major mysteries which could very well be extraterrestrial
		produced But UFO phenomena at large, I think, is composed of mostly errors.
		And so when you... In other words, I don't think it's as robust a phenomena as people tend to want to make it to.
		I think that the UFO phenomenon has a lot of great cases in it, for which the most prominent
		hypothesis would be an extraterrestrial hypothesis.
		I think the abduction phenomena also have some great cases in it, but the vast majority
		of these things are very unconvincing, and a lot of the stuff that has accreted to UFO
		phenomena is, I think, erroneously stuck in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm wondering, as you look at the various researchers' work, for example, abductions
		you mentioned, how do you sift through, or what methodology do you use for trying to
		determine what has some credibility and, conversely, what does not?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the abductions thing is a very difficult thing to understand.
		You have two kinds of researchers, basically.
		You have researchers who become very personally involved with their clients, and God bless them for that, because these people are hurting, but at the same time that they do that, they don't really gain any information that you could count on as being
		objectively gained in some way.
		In other words, they're more like science counselors than they are researchers.
		We have other individuals who proceed according to sort of old-fashioned UFO research
		that go to the trouble of checking the people's backgrounds out
		and talking to other people who know them, trying to get some feeling for the observer credibility.
		So the first thing I do is I look at the research methodology of the researcher who's making the claims.
		And when a researcher who seems to be very thorough and also has done a good job of checking observer
		credibility comes out with a statement that these are the various facts
		that we have presented by the reporter, then I say, well, now that's probably a true anomaly,
		especially when it matches up with what other researchers are reporting.
		But for the people who...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much of that do you find versus the other?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, nowadays, I find rather small amounts of true, old-time UFO research on abduction cases.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Almost everybody wants to have sympathy and rapport, for very good reasons, with the people who have come to them and they can't bring themselves to really do the in-depth character background check so that you could really say that you knew whether this was a true case or a wannabe case or a case that's asking something else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then probably the best way to determine is to look into the alleged victim's Yes, I would at least lean towards concluding that they absolutely believe what they're saying to be true.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		If then the pattern in what they're saying seems to match other things that they would have no good reason for
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Knowing and matching then I would say this is very likely a good case. Doctor
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much regard do you have for aggressive hypnosis in these cases?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Think the death of hypnosis is capable of being a very good tool
		We've had some individuals who've used that, like Dick Haynes has a method of using that that I think is perfectly good.
		We have a lot of different kinds of hypnotists that have used the thing with different sorts of methods and they seem to come out with the same basic patterns, so I see no reason to suspect that hypnosis is throwing the work up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In some of your publications, you've written about something called the Wow Signal, and that intrigued me.
		I'm very much a radio person.
		What is the Wow Signal?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Wow Signal was something that came in during a very early search for extraterrestrial intelligence by the Ohio State University Radio Telescope.
		I've forgotten whether it was in the 60s or when, but it was pretty far back in time.
		And they were just doing automated sky scans And, uh, one evening, uh, as the thing passed across the sky, it got a tremendous burst of energy from a first place in space.
		This was not noticed until the next morning when a graduate student came in and looked at the readout and was so blown away, he wrote, wow, next to the thing.
		Alex, got it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Of course, they went back and they re-scanned the sky in that area to try to find out what it was that gave the signal.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		They were never able to pick it up again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know what the nature of the signal was?
		Was it just pure white noise energy?
		Was there any... The wow must have been because there was some pattern or something.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It was energy at a certain specific wavelength in the spectrum.
		I don't recall what the wavelength was right now, but the machine was scanning just certain narrow bands of the spectrum.
		This is not too much unlike what they've recently claimed for the big search that's gone on with Bill Carter and Carl Sagan and Frank Drake, where they think that they've picked up maybe 50 or 60 different of these one-time only signals out there and never been able to relocate them again, all in different parts of the sky, so no feasibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, with the current search going on, which they've renamed, I can't recall the new name for it, but I think it's funded to the tune of about $100 million, the report from those folks so far would be basically negative or nothing, nothing that would earn a wow.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		We'll have to see how much kind of a thing that they want to run on the politicians, who they're trying to get more money from, to see what spin they put on it.
		But I think intellectually, honestly, you'd have to say that their results are negative, but they're going to feature, I'm sure, the fact that they've got these one-time glitches or whatever it was.
		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try this one with you.
		Linda Howe was mentioning something we frequently talk about on this program, the possibility of parallel universes, and I was particularly intrigued with her mention of the possible tie-in between reincarnation parallel universes and this business with UFOs and abductions.
		Is there any possibility or is it much too much of a reach to imagine that one day there
		will be a kind of a merge that will occur where there is some sort of connection?
		What are your feelings?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, if one assumes that the so-called abduction phenomenon is not just one phenomenon but
		is in fact a lot of different things that are causing something that sort of looks the
		same on the surface, then you might be able to say, well, there's one part of this thing
		that looks like it's ET-based and there's one part of this thing that looks like it's,
		say, some kind of a peculiar human mental carnival and that there's maybe some other
		kind of thing that's much more paranormal.
		I don't see at this stage of our investigations, of our knowledge, how one would want to be too confident in making any claims in one of
		those areas.
		But I would say this, that you can certainly imagine a cosmos that has reincarnation in
		it that has nothing to do with parallel realities in any sense other than kind of a loop through
		a disembodied spiritual existence.
		You don't have to have a Jacques Vallée and Magonian type parallel reality or something
		like that.
		And I would say that if you're going to try to speculate about people being involved in
		past lives, well, there better be a lot more evidence for this than what we've heard so
		far from Dr. Mack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let us return to an earlier time, maybe the beginning of the modern UFO phenomenon.
		And that, of course, is to 1947 and the Roswell business.
		I take it that there's been so much done on that since you study what others have done that you've looked at Roswell and the studies done on it very carefully.
		What have you concluded about that incident?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think that Roswell is the one other thing in UFO research other than abductions research that's really worth doing right now.
		From what I can tell from the Roswell research that's done by Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt,
		that case just continues to look stronger and stronger through time.
		It has fought off the challenges of maybe 20 different alternative hypotheses that people keep throwing out.
		The more witnesses that are dug up, instead of having the idea dissipate and fragment into a lot of nonsense,
		the story just seems to grow tighter.
		So I went into that Roswell thing thinking that it just couldn't possibly be true
		because it would change the whole nature of the space program and everything else.
		And I've been disabused of all that stuff by this stage.
		I think the Roswell case, along with the better abduction cases, are by far and away the most important thing you're doing right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, well then let's stick with Roswell for a moment.
		Can you run us through it a little bit?
		What is it that you find so convincing, as you've studied it, about Roswell?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the first thing is the fact that the initial witness who cracked the story was a man of such importance in the armed forces.
		A high level intelligence major who almost no matter what kind of a game you try to think up would be serving no good intelligence purpose in breaking the Roswell story the way he broke it.
		The second thing is that at this time There are probably between one and two dozen different first-hand witnesses to the metal pieces that were scattered around the Brasel Ranch.
		And their descriptions of the metal pieces, and also some of the other debris, they match perfectly.
		And the characteristics of this metal are two different kinds of it, especially the one that was the unbendable, unburnable kind, and the other that was the clumpable, but then it Then it would refold into its own shape.
		These are metal alloys that, if you look back as to what our metallurgy was in 1947, we couldn't do that stuff.
		So it gets to be pretty difficult to just wave off, say, 15 to 20 first-hand witnesses who are describing a couple of different metal forms that we couldn't make at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, after Roswell, there were some initial reports that seemed quite clear, early reports.
		Then, all of a sudden, we began to get the government involved, the weather balloon story and so forth.
		You must have looked at all that very carefully as well.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Those alternative reports, they have been tracked down with amazing efficiency by Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall to the point of First hand records for launching the balloon types and
		different sorts of missiles and all of these things.
		Not only do none of them match any of the described characteristics of the material,
		but all the known launches of anything have been accounted for.
		I think that's just all smoke screen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the part of the story that suggests there were alien beings there, that they were
art bell ▲ ● ▼		picked up and taken, I think, to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		All of that hold up?
		The alien beings part of the story is not as strong as the debris part of the story, but once you get the debris part of the story sort of established in your mind, it's a lot easier to buy into the craft occupants, especially since on one or two rare occasions a witness will talk some about both.
		So if that person was credible on the metals, that person is probably credible on the beings.
		Still, in terms of the so-called body site, because there are two different locations, a debris field in one area and then a body site much closer to the town of Roswell, that body site is still pretty much a work-in-progress research-wise.
		There are prime witnesses for that.
		I've been in the presence of a couple of these people.
		They are still holding on to their anonymity.
		I think one of them is about to be willing to come out and be quoted all over the place.
		But that's still a work in progress and that needs to be firmed up before too much is claimed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, well all this works very easily then into the government cover-up aspect of this, and there have been all kinds of documents over the years that have come out purporting to be government documents, briefing papers for Eisenhower, and all sorts of things, as you know, have come out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have you concluded as you've looked at this aspect of it, the government cover-up aspect?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		As far as the government cover-up of Roswell, I haven't been impressed with any of the documents that specifically claim to relate to that.
		But as far as government cover-up is concerned, that's just obvious.
		That's been obvious ever since David Jacobs wrote his history of UFO phenomena way back in the 70s.
		As soon as people got inside the Robertson panel information and also into the Condon
		Report information, which are the two major government elements that existed, one which
		ended up with the idea of completely debunking the UFO field forever because of national
		security reasons, and the other one was a so-called scientific study that was a debunking
		study from the beginning. As soon as those internal documents were revealed, it was obvious
		that you had nothing going on except the big cover-up, and we've done nothing but to indicate
		more of the same with all the FOIA documents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as a matter of national security, from what perspective?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a lot of reasons that it can be a matter of national security, but I'll
		give you the main one that the Robertson panel...
		The Robinson Panel was a CIA panel, for those who haven't heard about this, in 1952, very late in the year, actually early 1953, that was composed of five major scientists.
		They recommended actually a downplaying UFO phenomenon because, namely, during the previous summer, which was a big collapse, probably the second biggest of all time, The communication channels within the military were so clogged by citizens falling in that they considered it as having weakened the country's ability to respond to a real attack from the Soviet Union.
		And so they felt that if so-called UFO hysteria or enthusiasm or whatever you want to call it was allowed to just go unchecked, that they would continuously be vulnerable from say the Soviet Union messing with us and doing things
		to stimulate a lot of call agents walking the phone lines and then maybe be able to
		have a more successful attack come in after say a fake UFO wave of some kind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that something?
		Well, you know there are so many governments in the world and if we have decided to cover
		it all up or for the reasons you just suggested or even others, what about all the other governments
		in the world?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, it would be my opinion that our government was the only one fortunate enough to have
		a crash come down and ended up with something really amazing that it had to cover up for
		more reasons of concern for various social and economic institutions in the country and
		that would be the Roswell thing and the other countries wouldn't have to be bothered with
		something like that.
		Now some people say that Back in those days, in 1947, that would have been such a big thing that we would have had to have gone to the other major powers in the world and informed them at least somewhat and gotten a gentleman's agreement to keep the lid on the crash saucer thing.
		But as far as other governments were concerned, I don't know what their thinking process would have been.
		Certainly the Soviets would have had a somewhat similar concern to ours, with the voice in the Robertson panel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Sure, I'm sure they would have.
		We're now beginning, of course, with the Soviet Union breaking up and with Russia being so much more open.
		As you may have heard, George was actually able to get some materials out.
		That never could have been done previously.
		There should be a lot of new information coming from Russia and the other republics.
		Are we getting much?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		You keep hearing rumors of this, but I would caution listeners to remember that the Soviet Union, for a very long time, has had a record of having isolated researchers who were pretty much unchecked by anything but their own imagination to claim almost anything out in the boondocks.
		Unless we get some extremely good trustworthy information from research institutes that are backed by known scientists, I would not just automatically swallow any stuff that comes from the Soviet Union.
		Now, the other thing to say about that is, though, that Dr. Ames, from NASA Ames, which is someone that you may get on your program sometime, he's a very good scientist, he has made a link All right.
		One popular theory and one of my favorite subjects is time travel, and I noticed that you'd written something on UFOs as time travelers with a question mark after it.
		out of them, but to my knowledge that has not yet happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, one popular theory and one of my favorite subjects is time travel and I noticed
		that you'd written something on UFOs as time travelers with a question mark after it.
		It is at least as possible a theory when we're left with nothing but theories to imagine
		as any other.
		Could it be that what we regard as UFOs from elsewhere actually are from our future?
		Is that possible?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I, for Walt Andress in the Mufon Journal some time ago, I wrote actually a pair of papers, separated by a couple of years, to try to analyze whether that theory could make any sense or not.
		When you take a look at the shape It turns out kind of amusingly, to me at least, that that critter does look like something that you might expect due to what's called a neon shift, or a gene rate shift, so that our own human species might tend to look a little bit more like our own fetuses grown up, so to say.
		And so, I thought, well, that's kind of amazing that the biological part of this thing could actually make some sense, that it would be the same species, just in a future mode.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there anybody, Doctor, doing any work on computer projections, one might imagine, of how we might continue to evolve?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		No, and the reason why is that when you look at the thing in terms of the theory of evolution, it doesn't make any sense.
		We basically have stopped our evolution.
		Now, we're not going to change on the basis of just natural activity.
		Now, we might do genetic, genetic revisions here ourselves, but, and that would have to do with this shot.
		Oh boy, that's fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're, you're concluding we have stopped our, our evolution?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then, then what, now I'm pushed on time.
		I've got to do a newscast at the top of the hour.
		I would like to come back and Continue this with you, so relax for about five minutes.
		We'll do some news and come back to you, Doctor.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dr. Michael D. Swords from Michigan with us.
		More Area 2000 coming up.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		♪♪ From Jackie Gonsplas...
		♪♪ Good evening, everybody.
		Welcome back to Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to remind you if you have information on something involving UFOs, parapsychology, life after death, we would like to have you, encourage you, in fact, to contact the Bigelow Foundation.
		They are the mentors for this program and a great deal of research that is done generally in the UFOs.
		Life after death.
		You can contact the Bigelow Foundation at area code 702-456-1606.
		Your contact there, Angela Thompson.
		Area code 702-456-1606.
		contact their angela thompson
		area code seven oh two four five six one six zero six back now and we're in just a moment to michael doctor michael
unidentified		swords uh... who is somebody who looks into other people's uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		work and investigation
		And I've got a couple of questions continuing on evolution here.
		In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, you're welcome to get on the phone lines and line up to ask the doctor a question if you'd like.
		The local number of course is 383-8255.
		is 383-8255.
		Toll free from outside the state of Nevada.
		Our number is 1-800-338-8255.
		Take these down, please.
unidentified		1-800-338-8255.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The wildcard direct dial lines are area code 702-385-7214.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		is 1-800-338-8255. Take these down please. 1-800-338-8255.
unidentified		7214.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The wildcard direct dial lines are area code 702-385-7214. 7214. And finally, if you have
		never called at all, you're welcome of course on the first time caller line, which is area code
		702-385-7214.
		With that, back now to Kalamazoo, Michigan, and Dr. Swartz.
		Good evening again, Doctor.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were on the... You really stopped me when you said that our evolution has stopped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you conclude that?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Now that's actually something that biologists have known ever since the theory of natural selection has got so much evidence to support it because the way biological evolution proceeds is it only works when the offending characteristic, a characteristic that you don't want to have, It's a characteristic that will kill you prior to you being able to mate and pass on the genes that create that characteristic.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Or it's a characteristic that makes you so sexually unattractive that nobody wants to mate with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it is determined then by environmental considerations which are now stable?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing that stabilizes the thing is the fact that we have brains and we don't wait around anymore to die.
		The person with an appendix that gets ill has the appendix simply taken out.
		There's no evolutionary pressure for people with appendices to die anymore.
		The person who has a huge wart on his nose, nobody likes him, could have that wart removed if he wanted to.
		You know, it's that kind of thing.
		Our intelligence allows us to adapt to negative conditions immediately, rather than waiting around for the next generation to get lucky genetically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose there are stark environmental changes.
		The ozone dries up and blows away, the planet begins to heat.
		Some of the things suggested by the environmentalists.
		Would that then trigger some evolutionary modification in human beings?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Only if the catastrophe was so large that it destroyed our ability to technologically react to it.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		As long as we still have technology that would allow us to react to whatever this thing you're talking about is and preserve the life until it has a chance to mate, then it would have no effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The capacity is big enough that if it downs our technology again, we'll be back into the game of life then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		There are a lot of people who suggest that one of the motivations for the intervention by Extra-terrestrials would be connected to genetics and I'm sure you've looked into that aspect.
		What are your comments?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I have tried for years to get David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins off of that because it doesn't it does not make any sense whatsoever.
		And finally, I think I've secluded in getting Dr. Jacobs to change the way he talks about what he found.
		And he's talking now more about hybrids in the sense of changing human genes
		rather than trying to make alien genes to human genes, which is a theory that just doesn't make any sense at all.
		So if aliens are messing around with our genetics, they're simply messing around with our genetics to change
		us in some way, not to make us them.
		And that becomes very mysterious.
		It's a lot I would be bothering.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you, again, look into everybody else's work, and that's what you do,
		this question would be a good one.
		I've been looking into all this and interviewing people for years now, and I have noticed that ufologists seem to eat each other alive.
		I would like your comments on that and how damaging it is to the overall credibility of the investigators.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think that your observation about this being a mean street as far as research is concerned is unfortunately more than accurate.
		There are some people who do not engage in that kind of personality bashing, who somehow above it, but almost everybody manages to get down into
		this.
		The reason why I think that happens is that UFOs are something that the majority of people
		in the country seem so anxious to want to ignore or to ridicule or get rid of in some
		sort of way that the researchers in the field think that they have to be perfect.
		And as they try to be perfect, they end up taking some kind of extremist positions that
		will never allow themselves to admit that even some little part of what they've done
		is wrong.
		This ends up then when somebody comes back and tries to mention, perhaps even in a nice
		way, that some part of what they have done is wrong.
		It becomes very personal with them.
		I think the other reason why it happens all the time is that most of the folks who are
		doing research and did UFOs are amateurs, and I don't use that word in any particular
		I'm using the old English word of people who love what they're doing, but they're not doing
		the thing that's an academic style.
		And because of that it just creates an environment that maximizes all the tiniest little errors
		to the worst possible end and it really hurts the field getting any kind of credibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well and maybe adding to it all is disinformation.
		Is there or is there not in your opinion an active disinformation campaign by the government
		or any other agency or peoples?
		Is there a lot of disinformation, intentional disinformation out there?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well that's a tougher one to know because the people doing the disinformation, if they are, are professionals and they're very good at it.
		But there are known cases of UFO researchers themselves who have created disinformation for whatever crazy reasons they had going on in their head.
		Also, when you look at the Roswell investigation, there are hints in various places up and down the line that there's been some disinformation and some research blossom going on there.
		But if you're talking about the big guys in the Pentagon-shaped building and that outfit, that's harder to document because those people are good at what they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got to ask, what is cryptozoology?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I just wanted to know and then just down below it is something that really piques my interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's simply entitled, Disappearing Stars, and I have a man who calls me on my syndicated radio show and is doing research into precisely that, disappearing stars.
		He claims that stars at different moments actually do, for varying periods of time, disappear.
		What do you know about that?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, for one thing, there is a known astronomical phenomenon which causes the star It's a scene to dim out to us.
		These are extreme variable stars, and they go from a very high magnitude to a very low one.
		It's part of a cycle that probably signals the end of their life.
		But that's probably not the most interesting kind of disappearing star.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, this man is referring to ones that disappear and then, at the same intensity, later reappear, and he has a certain theory about that.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oscillating stars would in fact do that, and it would be a known It's a phenomenon that would be occurring probably near the end of a star's life as a variable, but the things that are more puzzling to standard science, anyway, are changes where you have a very accurate map.
		Everything else on this map looks like it couldn't be better, and yet here will be a rather prominent star sitting there, and we can't find it anymore.
		I would like to get to the telephones if I could.
		We have a lot of people who would like to talk to you, Doctor.
		Let's get to a few questions.
		Wild Card Line 3, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to get to the telephones if I could. We have a lot of people who would like to talk to you, Doctor.
		It's on the show. It's fine by me.
		All right. Good. Let's get to a few questions.
		Wild Card Line 3. Good evening. You're on the air in Las Vegas with Michael Swords. Dr. Michael Swords.
unidentified		Oh, and Michael Swords.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I've got kind of a two-part question.
		First, with the so-called technology that these aliens have, how come they're crashing on, you know, like Roswell?
		And the second part of the question is, are these people forcibly being told to keep quiet?
		Maybe, you know, due to threat of personal injury or scandal or that type of thing, Art?
		Now, I'll listen off the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure I have your second part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What people are you referring to, sir?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the people of Roswell.
		Oh, I see.
		The witnesses and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		That is a good question.
		Thank you.
		First of all, doctor, his question, if they have all this technology, why are they crashing?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, from what I can tell from looking at the literature of crashes, there's probably only been one crash.
		The second thing I would say is that We've got a lot of pretty clever technology, too, and we make all kinds of foul-ups.
		I would assume that Murphy will continue to live in outer space for time immemorial.
		The third thing is, it's suggested that the Roswell event occurred during a rather large, high-voltage thunderstorm.
		It could possibly be that this thing merged into that without really knowing that it could Electronics glitches in it by direct strike.
		But the fourth thing to really say is, well, why sit around and speculate when we don't know what their technology is?
		Let's just go with the empirical evidence.
		If we find it, the empirical evidence seems to indicate something very strange, perhaps.
		Now, as far as that other question was concerned about the people being threatened or threatened or not, there's a lot of evidence that people were threatened in Roswell.
		Well, you said there's a lot of evidence.
		Can you give an example of when you say there's evidence they were threatened?
		from your and my viewpoint as an American, like we wouldn't do that to the citizens.
		But they of course are now just angry at this statement like, but uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well you said there's a lot of evidence. Can you give an example of when you say there's
art bell ▲ ● ▼		evidence they were threatened? For example, what?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's say you could go to perhaps six or eight people down in the Roswell area right
		now.
		And ask them what had happened with their father and mother or themselves, if they're very much of an oldster still around, that caused them to have all this nervousness after this event was over.
		And they will tell you all, even though they don't know one another necessarily, that they got these similar messages from the government telling them that they were not supposed to talk to them or they were going to be harmed under their families.
		In the case of the parents of the children, or the people who are going to be taken away, and again and again.
		I mean, outrageous amount of stuff.
		As far as the military people are concerned, the military people mostly don't feel threatened.
		They just simply feel that they have made a personal duty vow, and that they're not going to break it.
		Since their commanding officer is now dead, they can't find someone who will be able to relieve them of their vow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I presume for a moment all of this is true, the government is covering it up, they know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you, personally, had all of the evidence you needed, and you could have a news conference, and you could beyond any shadow of a doubt announce to the world that, oh yes, it's real, oh yes, they've been here, here's the proof, would you release it?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I might give... I have questions that have gone through my mind quite a bit, because there's about 12 or 15 different reasons why you might not want to leave it.
		Exactly.
		And all these things involve some pretty serious stuff about government reaction, people reaction, economic reaction, etc.
		to these things.
		And I might Possibly give the government one last chance to explain to me why I should release it.
		Try to get in contact with them and say this is something I've got.
		Of course I'd protect myself on that, but I might give them one last shot to And if they were to produce studies that showed you that
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the American people would react very poorly, that it would be disruptive of the entire social structure,
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that religion would be in danger of collapse and so forth, would that be enough?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		If they could prove that to me, I think I'd swallow it.
		But it's my belief that they can't prove that to me.
		Richard Hall has recently asked a bunch of us to write some essays on this exact topic,
		and I've gone down through the whole list of things, and I could see their reasoning for not wanting to release
		the information.
		I think right now we're at a stage where probably releasing the information would be the better thing to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have we been in a period of time with all of these motion pictures and all the rest of it And even this type of show, where we are in essence preparing the American people to receive that information without going off the deep end.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I left a yes or no on that.
		Shows like yours probably yes for most of the speakers on the show, but the no part is the abductions part.
		And unless people like John Mack are correct, and this is some kind of a benign thing, the Bud Hopkins-David Jacobs scenario, this thing being kind of horrible, is precisely the thing that would NOT want you to release information that this is real and it's going on and it's flux at any time and there'll be a defense against it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, um, and that brings up another good question.
		Um, with everything you've looked at, would you say this is in all likelihood something that is?
		As far as we're concerned, horrible if we knew about it, or is it basically benign?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's my guess that, and this is just a guess, and for goodness sakes, don't rate this as anything more important than one person's opinion, but the guess is that because human beings do not seem to have been deliberately harmed in some physical way, Now ideally there are some possible exceptions to that in some of the claimed cases, but I still think that some of that stuff is pretty loose as far as the claims.
		But I would say that the worst case scenario that I've seen so far
		would be of some self-centered group of individuals, EPs or whatever,
		that were using human emotions in some kind of a way, but did not intend any kind of a permanent harm to the host.
		And so because we have been able to live with the shadow of the atomic bomb
		hanging over our head, I'm not completely so sure that we've just lived with the shadow
		of this hanging over our head, knowing that we're going to get up in the morning
unidentified		and we're going to go back to sleep, and basically we're just going to discover
art bell ▲ ● ▼		some of what we've been doing after a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plus, I suppose the conjecture that if they have this technology and met us harm, we'd be harmed.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, unless for some reason they want some other kind of thing out of us first and then still would be looking for harm afterwards.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		There's always a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, line one, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Dr. Swords, who is in Michigan.
unidentified		Well, good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
unidentified		I heard it's very interesting that you brought that particular part up that wasn't exactly what I called about.
unidentified		I had a chance to talk to my grandmother a while back who remembers the night of the War of the Worlds radio show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I think the biggest answer to your question about why they don't tell anybody is look at the reaction to that.
unidentified		I mentioned that to you once before but the interesting part, the interesting information that I didn't have on that at that time was that people were killing themselves and killing their children because they really thought that Well, of course, if you ever heard that radio show, it was awful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they were zapping people, eating people, you know, people.
		It was not a benign visit.
		So that was then, and that is an interesting subject.
		I'll ask the doctor about it in a moment.
unidentified		The thing on that, though, that I want to elaborate on is that, yeah, maybe the times have changed and our technology has gotten a little bit better.
		But human nature is human nature.
		I mean, if I were out in the... And it seems really funny to me that the only people that really get a chance to experience this kind of stuff is silly Joe Bob, who lives, you know, out in Boosie Land.
		The thing that really, uh, gets me about... Well, uh... They... Human nature is human nature.
		He's gonna feel, uh... I need to protect myself.
		I've got a gun.
		Bang!
		Or, you know...
		Whatever else.
		I can't really tell you of very many people who are going to sit back with open arms and say, come on in, have some tea, tell me about where you're from, and that sort of thing.
		I think people are going to be really on the defensive.
		And as far as all the movies coming out in this radio show, I really think that these kind of things can desensitize people on a lot of issues, but I don't think this is one of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a specific question?
unidentified		Well, I would like him to comment on that.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We will do that.
		Thank you.
		Doctor, I guess he's saying that you can't be desensitized, really, on this issue, nor can you be prepared.
		And he points to that radio broadcast.
		Indeed, that was a big disaster.
		And I wonder if A decision, for example, in Washington to keep all this silent might be based on that catastrophe, which is probably one of the best studies of what human beings would think.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I'm perfectly aware of the Orson Welles broadcast situation, and in fact it appears in a couple of studies that were made by them to ask the questions about the response to just the general question of the meeting of extraterrestrials.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I think, with all due respect to Young-Hellman's facts on what went on in New Jersey along The extent of the damage there was basically automobile accidents and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a lot of suicide, people killing their children.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		My reading of the situation, I would say none of that, but let's be open and say little or none of that.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I don't believe that any of that went on.
unidentified		It's a live mix of people who are coming in and talking about this.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		We know of people all up and down the socioeconomic spectrum and through all the races.
		It's a wide mix of people who are coming in and talking about this.
		One of the guys who makes the rounds is Dr. John Salker from I believe South Dakota State University.
		Here's a guy who took a totally intellectual approach to the experience all the way through.
		I do think it's true that there is going to be a significant segment of the American people who are very anxiety prone.
		And you can't desensitize them to that.
		And that I think is right.
		But I think on the other hand, We have been, as I mentioned before, living under a threat that is at least as horrifying as this, namely the hydrogen bomb, for a couple of decades now.
		And somehow or other, although it's scarred us, we've managed to go about our business.
		So I think that the jury's out as to what the impact of this would be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor.
		Hold on just one second while I do a station ID and we'll be right back.
		You're listening To Area 2000, my guest this week is Michael D. Swords, Dr. Michael D. Swords.
		He looks into other people's research in these areas and is a fascinating individual, which you should know by now.
		If you would like to make a comment, the only line I have open is one local line that we
		just cleared at 383-8255 or 8255.
unidentified		From Jackie Gons' Plaza downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas.
unidentified		Good evening, this is Area 2000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the air every Sunday evening from 8 until 10 o'clock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Happy to be with you.
unidentified		Back in a moment to Dr. Swords.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no.
		Back right now to Dr. Swords.
		Doctor, you're back on the air again.
		And there are a bunch of people that want to speak with you, so let's keep moving through these calls.
		Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Swartz, who is in Michigan.
		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		This is Fred from Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Los Angeles.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Just a correction.
		The previous caller said there was mass panic.
		I guess it was a disaster in 1938 with the York-Wells show, but there was nobody killed.
		Like Dr. Swartz said, there were a few car accidents and a few handful of strokes.
		Some people got excited, but it was not a mass panic like everybody said.
		It is true that the government and the Air Force, way back in the Dr. Menzel's time, used this as a barometer.
		They said, well, there was this incident in New York, and then there was another copycat somewhere in Europe, in a Latin country, where they had also Orson Welles War, a copycat type war, people really went berserk.
		And so they used this as a barometer, and they said, hey, the people are not ready, etc., etc.
		Alright, do you have a specific question?
		Well, there's a film coming out now from Russia called Cosmic Dog Secret by a producer, I think, his name is Avinsky, where the Russian scientist and ufologist is exchanging information with our ufologist and a major is interviewed there where he will claim that the alleged two Russian soldiers standing guard were abducted and that also a UFO was shooting at a Are you aware of that film, Doctor?
		No, I'm not.
		I'm sorry.
		All right.
		aware of it but this film should come out very soon here and make the fickles. Are you aware of that
art bell ▲ ● ▼		film doctor? I'm not, I'm sorry. All right well he's not. I'll make the fickles eventually but
unidentified		the Russians are taking on now and trying to have the freedom of speech in some way
		they're behind in the UFO research but the more open-minded than we are they really are hungry
		for knowledge and they have less fear than we are. We have a coverage on here, an umbrella of fear
		because we've been so conditioned that the things about somehow Russian people embrace the EDP.
		contract.
		They need just more information.
		They're hungry for the information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thanks, Fitz.
		And that is a good subject.
		Linda Howe is in Europe.
		uh... a few weeks ago doctor and uh... there is or there does seem to be
		a very distinctly different attitude through europe and and i suppose in russia
		and elsewhere than there is in this country
		how do you account for the uh...
		i don't want to say unnatural interest but greater interest uh... in in america
		in in this subject uh... i
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		i think that we're not getting up a very
		uh... correct view of what the europeans and the russians
		really have in terms of interest after all what do you have you have a few ufo
		u.s. researchers going over there naturally the people they're meeting
		with are the people who are most interested in ufo's they're going to put on
		their most positive views on the thing especially the russians do that because
		the russians not only want to make linkages with the u.s. researchers but they
		also want us to uh...
		support their research because russia is so destitute for money
		the major institutions over there for the fairly good in terms of ufo research
		end up uh...
unidentified		every time and i understand it and don't hold it against them but they end up every time
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		asking you for money uh... at the end of their letters and uh... hard currency
		please yes indeed and i don't think that uh...
		I would say that if anything in Europe that there's much less interest in UFOs.
		The tendency of the people who study UFOs in several of those countries is to view the thing as a psycho-sociological phenomenon.
		In fact, that's the heartland of that particular theory about UFOs.
		I don't think, I would say that if there is a It's an unusual interest in the Soviet Union.
		It might be because they've just gone through so many decades of atheistic materialism and that this is a kind of a living substitute to that.
unidentified		But, uh, other than that, uh... Alright.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh, first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Swartz.
unidentified		Hello there.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		No, you're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line two, you're on the air with Dr. Swartz.
unidentified		Good evening.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, hello.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Art, I just want to tell you, I really like your show, I've been listening to it for years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Yeah, and I've got a couple of questions for the doctor.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		First, one is on abductions.
		And the question I have is, what does your research show as far as abductions through tangible items such as walls, canvas, tents, etc.?
		And the second is, have you done any research as far as in the Area 51 in Nevada?
		I've done some of my own research up in that area and it's been very I can't really say the word for it, but I've seen a lot of weird things up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, let's go to Area 51, if you would.
		It's just to the north of us here, and I wonder what sort of, you know, there's been a lot of documentation and research about this area.
		Some people speculate there are disks up there and so forth and so on.
		What have you learned about that?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		And as far as the more spectacular kinds of claims are concerned, I haven't yet been very
		impressed with those because of the very fragmentary nature of the information and to some degree
		the assertions that have been cast on some of the people delivering it.
		But in terms of there being a lot of weird stuff in the air over there, I don't think
		anybody doubts that.
		Aviation Week and Space Technology Magazine is constantly documenting very high performance
		envelope vehicles that are flying over Nevada and to me, if I take that as the baseline
		of my information and I look back through time, I think that what they're flying out
		there is spectacular but I don't think it's beyond the direction of the technology that
		you see just prior to that, the real good old-fashioned U.S.
		technical magic rather than extraterrestrial technical magic.
		I haven't seen anything yet in the Area 15 idea that would lead me to believe that we have to have UFOs and back-engineered
		alien technology out there, although I sure have heard the rumors, like everyone else has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it certainly might be the place to take it, if you had it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, what was your first question please?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		First question was on as far as abductions through tangible items such as houses and walls or tents, that kind of thing in remote areas.
		Getting back on as far as Area 51, Um, let me ask, Dr. Farris, if you had any observations as far as, uh, anything as far as pulses in the area, as far as, uh, like, uh, laser-type items.
		I've seen whole mountain ranges wetted up in that area.
		We're talking, uh, magnitude of, you know, 10 miles across in depth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, uh, Doctor?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've heard, uh, from some of the people on the aircraft side of the plane that, uh, that the engines of, uh, of the so-called Pulsarcraft... Yeah.
		...are, are so great that when you turn on, they light up the whole area around.
		So, at the moment, I don't think that it's, that it's not just happening, like, it's a laser effect.
		It's happening, like, at the beginning of the beginning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm gonna tell you, about two weeks ago, I'm 48 years old, Doctor.
		I've never seen a UFO.
		Two weeks ago, I saw something I absolutely could not explain.
		Though I think it might have been an experimental aircraft, on my way home, a large, triangular craft passed about 150 feet above me.
		It was actually lit up, it had what appeared to be anti-collision lights, two white lights, one red light at each point of the triangle, and that's what it was, Doctor.
		It was a perfect triangle.
		And at about an altitude of, I'd estimate, 150 feet, passed above me, making not even a sound.
		I had my automobile stopped.
		You could hear crickets a quarter mile away.
		I mean, there was no sound at all, and it just passed above me.
		Now, I live in a valley just adjacent to Area 51, and my presumption is I saw some sort of incredible experimental aircraft.
		I have no idea what it was, but it was low enough And slow enough, I would describe it almost as floating.
		But it absolutely simply is nothing that I know that we have.
		It was remarkable.
		Dr. Remarkable.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I'm impressed with that kind of a thing because, first of all, you're a credible witness seeing something fairly close.
		It's a good close encounter of the first kind report and it matches the pattern Well, I don't know what I saw.
		were researched so well by the Belgian government a few years back, it's almost precisely the
		same description that was given for the objects that appeared quite often over a several month
		period in Belgium.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know what I saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I was pressed to the wall, Doctor, I would say that I saw some sort of experimental aircraft.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		But most people feel that they have to... the crux of the thing is that if what you saw
		was the same kind of an object that was in Belgium, then the key thing is that the Belgian
		radar reports would show an extremely rapid direction and upward acceleration that should
		have produced more G-forces than a pilot could have taken.
		And this seems to be a little out of the performance envelope that we would expect from a current technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little out is putting it mildly, and I'm still thinking very hard about that encounter.
		I just thought I would take that moment to discuss it.
		Okay, line three, you're on the air with Dr. Swords in Michigan.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening.
		I think everything he gives me is one point to make believe people that there will be a life after death.
		And this is not true.
		All those people who believe in the UFO, those are the same people who talk all the time about Jesus and his mother.
		They see those people, they see Jesus and his mother in different kind of places, like in Nigeria, like in Poland, like in different... And this is absolutely not true.
		You need children to tell them those kind of stupid stories about life after death and about Jesus alive.
		and his mother lied, and you of all, and you make this propaganda now, like they grow like mushrooms after the
		rain, after the collapse by the Soviet Union.
		So they try to make people believe in more stupid ideas and more stupid lies. Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome.
		Now, in that man, doctor, I just left him on because I wanted to hear it, and I wanted you to hear it.
		There are a lot of people who react just like that man does to this information.
		They may make the best case for never releasing it.
		There's anger, hostility, and I have this feeling that if the information ever came out, that man would be on the warpath.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		That was a very quiet sound coming to me, and so all I could The way I get from that is that,
unidentified		some of the gentlemen, there were some people typically complaining about
unidentified		U.S. law and the Frank Faye and the Blessed Mary Virgin
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		and Frank Faye. Precisely.
		Like that. Yeah. What I would say is that we've always had
		a element in society that needed
		some very simplistic grounding, or they
		become somewhat unhinged.
		And things are going to happen when we walked on the moon.
		This kind of a person is either going to go into a state of denial that it never happened, or it's going to have some kind of a life crisis.
		The same thing is going to be true if Carl Sagan gets any extraterrestrial signals, if the Darwinian theory of evolution sounds like it's better, or whatever.
		So, we can't protect that element of the population against new things happening
		and I still don't think that it's safe.
		It's a useful reason to deny full information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, nevertheless, perhaps not.
		You know, is there any way of estimating what percentage of people
		in the population would react if that man...
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		If you were talking to a, uh, a psychologist that, uh, looked at statistical data, allow me to, uh, to reflect on something that might, uh, might cast some light on that, but it wouldn't be exactly the same thing.
		When you look at the way in which human nervous systems are speared, uh, you find that about 1% of the Human species is geared at such a high level that they can't even get their thought processes to go straight, and we end up calling them things like schizophrenia.
		If you boil that down to the next stage in the curve, we might say that there's between, say, five or six percent or so of the population that might be so highly wired that they're anxiety-prone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that adds up to a lot of people these days.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It does add up to a lot of people, but there's no way to There's no way to protect those people from the fact that life goes on.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		So I would say that you let life go on and you don't try to cushion things and hide them because if things get worse and then they do break, you've just made a bigger problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		Alright, Doctor.
		Good evening.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Swords on Area 2000.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Doctor.
		Hello.
		I have a question for you.
		Well, the question is, have you noticed or is there any research being done on what seems to have changed the physiognomy of the women of mainly Western Europe and North and South America?
		And I have some examples.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, go ahead with your examples.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, for instance, the arms of women since roughly the mid-70s have become very long And their hands are either very narrow with long fingers or large hands, thick fingers.
		The facial structure seems to have stabilized in a very angular dimension.
		The mouth has widened.
		The features are becoming very close set.
		And the length of the leg is becoming long and also its size is becoming very narrow, very slender.
		Where did this information come from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've got the same question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where'd you get this, sir?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this is just observation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Now, this seems to be the type of female which seems to be mainly in the, like I said, in North and South America and Western Europe.
		This seems to be becoming a very dominant feature, especially the legs and the arms.
		All right, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you concur with any of those observations?
		Oh, I'm afraid we're going to have to get Dr. Swartz back.
		All right, caller.
		I appreciate it.
		We're going to have to find out if he concurs with any of that.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Take a look at the beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take a look at the beach?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Now, the next time you look, we'll say, at movies from, say, roughly 1960 to date when they show Crowd scenes, or women at the beach, etc.
		Not the actresses, but just general women, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
		It's becoming real striking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never even heard such a thing suggested before.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Try it.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Try it and see, and you'll begin to notice certain features are becoming standard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you think that's just something you're noticing, or do you think it's actually some sort of, you know, real change that's going on?
unidentified		From what I've seen, it seems to be a genuine genetic change.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's not, I'm not talking surgical alteration either.
		Because who in their right mind would have, for instance, the muscles in their calves reduced?
		And how would you narrow someone's hand without cutting away so much musculature that you couldn't close your hands?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good point, caller.
		Very good point.
		And doctor, we've got you back now.
		I still have this caller, same caller on the line.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he's, again, he's saying he's noticing all of these changes in women.
		Do you concur with any of that at all?
		Thank you, caller.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm afraid I don't.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I was saying before the gremlins got to the works of the phone company here, I don't know what you make of that, because I watch women just as much as anyone else, I suppose, and I haven't noticed except perhaps if he's sitting around watching the shapes of actresses and models, which could possibly be changing to the fashion of some sort.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line 2, good evening, you're on the air with Dr. Swords, who's in Michigan.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Sorry?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is Sam against the Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we're only allowed to make one call.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, well thank you then for the call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And good evening, out of state, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Swords, who's in Michigan.
unidentified		Yes, when do you think the government will reveal to the American people that they're actually UFOs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question. Dear Barbara, Doctor, any comment on that?
		When might they reveal it?
		Or what might provoke them to reveal it?
		Or can they be pushed into it?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		All of us that are interested in the Roswell case are constantly trying to think of something productive along those lines all the time.
		I certainly don't believe that marching with tickets out in front of the White House asking for Bill Clinton to come seen is going to do it.
		I think, in fact, if anything, that's a negative way of going about things because it puts it into an unserious light, I think, in most people's minds and actually causes negative pressure.
		If there were another couple of major breaks of the security people, Then perhaps the combination of what's already known on Roswell and say a current guardian of the black box that contains this stuff would come through with something.
		But if you don't have a major leak of some kind, I don't see any incentive for the government.
		Absolutely, and that's what it would seem to add up to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there may be more on social side that dictates you wouldn't reveal it unless you had to.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It's been stated by some experts in the past that if you've got a situation that has nothing on the positive side,
		except shock and the curiosity of a few American citizens, and you've got a whole lot potentially on the negative side,
		you don't run these risks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, and that's what it would seem to add up to.
		Line 3, you're on the air with Dr. Swords.
		Yes, good evening.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Is that me?
		That's you.
		Okay, thank you.
		I was on my way home, and I heard this discussion, and it must have been at least 20 years ago.
		It might have been a little longer than that.
		I remember my husband came home with a book, and it was called Chariots of the Gods.
		Has the doctor ever heard of this book?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I suspect so.
		Thank you.
		Doctor, what about that, Chariots of the Gods?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, she's talking about her stringer's mate, Eric Von Daniken, a multi-millionaire, of course.
		Eric Von Daniken actually did the concept of ancient astronauts a disservice.
		There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea that he could have had extraterrestrial visitations to ancient times, and that these particular visitations would have affected the cultures in terms of the making of their buildings, or more likely, the sculpting of their mythology.
		But since Erich von Däniken played so fast and loose with the facts and made such horrendous errors and howling zingers all throughout his book, he took what was a potentially respectable theory and completely ran the entire scholarly community off of it.
		At one time, even Carl Sagan, prior to von Daniken's input, had broached a chariot of
		the gods type hypothesis in a famous search for extraterrestrial intelligence textbook
		that he wrote.
		And of course, Carl Sagan wouldn't be caught dead up doing anything about that now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Big flap going on now about Mars, about the Explorer, the loss of the Explorer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What feedback are you getting on that, Doctor?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		The feedback that I'm getting is that NASA just screwed up.
		And that we set back a couple of years ago and yucked it up and called the Soviets a
		bunch of goons for pushing the wrong button on their Fobos probe.
		And now we've apparently made a, not a computer error, but a mechanical error, in that there's some sort of a, of a transistor that has been known to have failed in a couple of other spaceships before, that was also put back into this thing, and that if it failed again, like it has failed before, we would have lost contact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, that though, it seems so unlikely.
		If you had a transistor that had failed in one craft, surely you would put it through its paces.
		You'd already experienced a large financial loss as a result of it.
		Why would you put it in yet another craft?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		It started failing the rings on that shuttle before we let one blow up too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good point.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		We're capable of any amount of stupidity because the organization is so big that it doesn't do good
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		crap about pieces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right. Good evening.
		You're on the air with Dr. Michael Swords, who is in Michigan.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Apparently not.
		Line 2, you're on the air with Dr. Swords.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Yeah, uh, uh, about that, the World News thing, those are hoaxes.
unidentified		Those pictures on there, they just want to sell, you know, one shot out of it.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		They're all hoaxes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me.
		I'm very well aware of their reputation.
		Right, I understand.
unidentified		Thank you.
unidentified		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Dr. Michael B. Swords, who is in Michigan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		Montana, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Montana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Um, yes.
		I just wanted to say that, um, I really think they should disclose any information that they have on UFOs.
		I feel like I should have a right to know, and I want to know.
		And I feel like, I don't know, maybe it would do some good for a lot of people if they knew that there was something more than, or something bigger than us, than this Beyond this planet.
		Something to strive for, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess that has to be balanced against what the doctor said about what the reaction would be among, say, 5% of the population or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it sounds as though you're looking forward to it.
unidentified		Yeah, and I think that 95% should outweigh that 5%.
unidentified		I think most people would welcome it, and it would do wonders for, I don't know, I guess just our whole outlook on things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, very good.
		Thank you, ma'am.
		Just a comment, Doctor.
		She thinks the 95% would benefit far more than the 5% that would go around the corner.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Of course, we don't know about 95% or 5%.
		We don't know what people are thinking.
		But the government has already tried to play that mind game, too, and see how that came out.
		And what the Brookings Institute said in their report to NASA was that when a superior culture and an inferior culture intimately meet, And so there's a genuine sharing of information between them.
		The inferior culture almost always dies in terms of a self-ordaining kind of a culture and becomes just an appendix sucking in whatever it gets from its now big brother and doesn't any further develop on its own.
		So that as Carl Jung, the famous Swedish psychologist, supposed to have gotten this information about talking to
		an Amazonian shaman.
		The Amazonian shaman said, Back to young, you have stolen all our dreams.
		And so the happy thought of us having this wonderful new possibility out there might
		well be very negative as far as independent development of the human race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line three, you're on the air with...
unidentified		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing well, sir.
unidentified		Uh, need more time for these.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		But anyway, real quick, I'm just curious, I've been trying to get that shuttle off the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is now off the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it did successfully launch.
unidentified		Oh, finally, yeah.
unidentified		I was just curious if that had anything to do with screw-ups or they were just pressured by people from the unknown that they didn't want it to launch or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it's up there.
unidentified		Ah, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out of state very quickly as we run out of time for Dr. Michael Swords in Michigan.
unidentified		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Line one, good evening.
unidentified		Good evening, Art and Doctor.
		I'll try to make this fast because I know time is running out.
		First of all, Doctor, have you ever heard of Noah Fredericks, who is a biblical and UFO researcher?
		And then I have a second part to the question.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		I have not.
unidentified		Okay.
		He basically believes that UFOs have been around even before biblical Uh, time and history, and my question is to do with the finger formation of alien descriptions.
		If you ran every description on a computer, do you know how many, or if many came up with six fingers?
		And the reason I'm asking, the other day when I was doing my own physical research, I found that in 1 Chronicles 20th chapter, verse 6, They mention a being with six fingers and six toes, that he's of large stature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, I'm sorry, time is just about gone.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, any response?
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Well, the UFO humanoids are almost always described as having either four or five fingers, if not ten.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Thorne, we really could use a whole lot more time for this subject.
		We only get, however, two hours.
		And as I do with most of my guests, particularly since you look into everybody else's research, I would like to have you back sometime.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it has been a distinct pleasure, and you're an easy interview, and I thank you.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're welcome.
michael sorez ▲ ● ▼		Love to be a part of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a good evening, sir.
		Dr. Michael A. Smith.
		And I'm afraid that's it, everybody.
		We operate as close as we can.
		Uh, to, uh, to what's going on here, to the plant again, so that's gonna do it.
		Remember, if you have any information at all, uh, that you would like checked out, anything you would like looked into, the Bigelow Foundation has the ability and has the resources to accomplish that, and I urge you to call them.
		Their number is coming up now, and we'll see you again next week at 8 o'clock.
		The preceding program was made possible by a grant from the Bigelow Foundation.
		This has been Area 2000, a program that introduces our listeners to the scientific approach for discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation, please call during the week between 9 a.m.
		and 5 p.m.
		Area code 702-45616 I don't know.

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