Whatever Podcast - Andrew Wilson DEBATES Amouranth! CRASH OUT Kylie Update?! Woke College Feminists!

Nov. 10, 2025 - Whatever Podcast

07:48:34

Andrew Wilson DEBATES Amouranth! CRASH OUT Kylie Update?! Woke College Feminists! | Dating Talk #268

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	Welcome to the whatever dating talk podcast where we try to make sense of the modern dating hellscape.
	I'm your host, Brian Atlas.
	A few quick announcements before the show begins.
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	Oh, you know what?
	Hide.
	Oh, no, no, that is correct.
	Yeah, yeah, you can show it.
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	I thought I had it.
	We had a bump it today just because we have so much to get through.
	So $200 to read.
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	TTS is going to be $300 and up.
	That's via Streamlabs only.
	There's a moderation delay with the TTS, but we try to get those in within a minute or two.
	Also, via Streamlabs, you can mute a microphone, pop a ball of champagne, or if you're a real baller, real G, we have some crypto-only options, Ethereum, even some Bitcoin options.
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	Pull up another tab.
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	Check out my cat, I guess.
	There it is.
	Check out my cat.
	Check out my nonprofit movement, Big Labia Matter or BLM for short.
	All Labia Cam Matter until Big Labia Matter.
	Also, I ratioed Kanye West.
	So that's cool.
	If you can't catch the full shows, we have Eclipse channel.
	We also have a Discord, discord.gg slash whatever.
	We post our stream schedule, behind the scenes, hate mail research studies, a bunch of other stuff.
	If you're my Caucasian, you will join the Discord.
	Also, we have a little Crash Out Kylie update that we'll get into later on in the stream.
	And that's yeah, that's it.
	So without further ado, we're going to have the guests introduce themselves.
	So please tell us your name, age, occupation, where you're from, and education.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Hi, my name is Shona.
	I'm 18 years old.
	I'm a college student here at UC Santa Barbara, and I'm in my freshman year, and I'm from the Bay Area.
	All right, what are you studying?
	I'm studying psychological and brain sciences.
	Gotcha.
	All right, welcome.
	What about you?
	Hi, I'm Caitlin, also known as Amaranth.
	I am 31, and I am a live streamer and content creator from Houston.
	All right.
	Any college or anything like that, university?
	I went to school locally in Houston for costume design.
	For costume design.
	Yeah, before influencing.
	Gotcha.
	You get a degree, bachelor's.
	No, I couldn't even finish school.
	Yeah, it was like a trade program.
	Do you still do costume-related design?
	Occasionally, yeah.
	For cosplay conventions and stuff.
	Rock and roll.
	And you're from Texas, like grew up there.
	Yes, gotcha.
	Houston, all right.
	Rock and roll.
	What about you?
	My name is Nick Lee.
	I'm 36, and I guess I do social media work kind of behind the scenes mostly, supporting kind of what Kate does.
	And then I have some, well, I have a bachelor's degree in engineering finance.
	Gotcha.
	And where are you from?
	Texas, Houston.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Gotcha.
	All right.
	And you said you had a degree in, what was it again?
	It was finance.
	Finance.
	And then engineering.
	And what kind of engineering?
	Chemical.
	Chemical engineering.
	It's all chemical down there.
	Okay, gotcha.
	Before you got into some of the content stuff, what like were you working in briefly on Wall Street?
	Merrill Lynch during the financial crisis of 2009.
	Yeah.
	Right before, the summer right before they went under.
	So that was a very interesting experience.
	Then I did engineering after that, and it was mostly like designing ethylene cracking plants.
	Okay, gotcha.
	What about you?
	I'm Lola.
	I'm 20.
	I'm from Orange County, and I'm currently a student, a barista, and a nanny.
	Gotcha.
	What are you studying?
	Writing and literature.
	All right.
	And you're a sophomore, junior, junior.
	Okay.
	All right.
	What about you?
	I'm Willow.
	I'm 27 and I'm from Chicago.
	I work for a car dealership, but I'm also mainly the founder and owner of a community for women called Womanhood Unfiltered.
	So that's my main focus.
	All right.
	And any education, college?
	I went to the Art Institute, but I ended up dropping out, and I'm just kind of focused on what I do with my business.
	I graduated high school.
	That's about it.
	Okay.
	All right.
	What about you?
	My name is Melissa.
	I am 28 years old.
	I am originally from Baltimore.
	I've lived in Tampa for the past three years and I just moved to Denver.
	I got there on Tuesday, but I've also lived in many other states in the past few years.
	I am an IFBB professional bodybuilder, and I am an online coach for both athletes and lifestyle clients.
	And for school, I did not finish college.
	I probably had like one semester left.
	I'm debating finishing in some kind of science.
	Okay, and how long have you been doing the bodybuilding for?
	I have been a pro since 2020.
	My first show ever was when I was 17 in 2014.
	Can we get the most muscular?
	And then the double buy?
	Maybe a tricep.
	Can we get a little tricep?
	Oh, I gotta stand on.
	Here, let me.
	Maybe this angle.
	Can you do the other arm?
	Other.
	Yeah.
	I like this one better.
	Oh, it looks hot.
	Nice.
	You don't have good shadows here.
	Shoot.
	Cool, cool.
	Thank you for that.
	What about you?
	My name is Savannah.
	I'm 31.
	I'm originally from Nashville, but I live in San Diego now.
	I am an office administrator for San Diego Jewelry Buyers down in San Diego.
	And then I also run a Flowstar community in San Diego and promote for local shows.
	And yeah.
	Any education?
	Oh, yeah.
	I went to school in Middle Tennessee for health and nutrition.
	You got a bachelor's degree?
	Yeah, my bachelor's degree.
	Gotcha.
	All right.
	What about you?
	Hello.
	My name is Courtney.
	I'm 31.
	I'm from Salt Lake City, Utah.
	I'm an exotic cat trainer, specializing in savannah cats.
	They're a hybrid species between an African serval and a domestic house cat, if you did not know that.
	And I have a bachelor's degree in computer science.
	Those are the really big cats, right?
	They're not like tiger-sized, but I would say imagine a cheetah, but like half the size.
	They're a size of a medium dog.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Imagine a cheetah, but half the size.
	I mean, that's pretty big, I think.
	And did you say your education?
	Sorry, I might have missed that.
	Yes, I've completed a bachelor's degree in computer science.
	Yeah, I'm sorry.
	Okay.
	All right.
	What about you?
	Yeah, my name is Andrew Wilson.
	I'm the host of The Crucible.
	I'm a political pundit, a commentator.
	I do debates all around the world and conversations all around the world as well.
	Mostly via video.
	I don't like actually physically going around the world.
	But I do like having conversations.
	So that's who I am.
	Thank you all for having me.
	I'm happy to have this conversation today.
	All right.
	Welcome, everybody.
	We're going to go around the table once more.
	What's your current relationship status?
	If you're single, how long have you been single?
	And what's the longest relationship you've ever been in?
	I'm currently single.
	I've never been in a relationship before, but I mean, like, I'm talking to someone right now.
	Okay.
	How long have you been talking to them?
	Well, we're like hanging out before, but we've just been like talking more and spending more time together in the last few weeks.
	But it's been like since school started.
	Okay.
	So like just what, three, four weeks or something?
	Something like that, yeah.
	Okay.
	And when you say you're just talking, what does that entail?
	Just spending time together and hanging out, getting to know each other.
	Like going on dates or going to his dorm room or?
	Yeah, hanging out.
	Okay.
	What about you?
	I've been married to this guy for about 10 years.
	All right.
	Married.
	How long were you guys dating for?
	I think it was about a year and a half.
	Gotcha.
	So about together, almost 12 years.
	Yeah.
	Total.
	Does that sound like 14?
	Getting there.
	Getting there.
	And so you guys got married after, you said a year and a half or so?
	Yeah.
	Gotcha.
	And any other relationships before that for you?
	Just like dating for like six months at a time, but nothing serious.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Well, I imagine your answer is a bit the same.
	So married to her for 10 years.
	Yeah, that part of it's the same.
	I had kind of a wild 20 to 25, but so some other, any other long-term relationships?
	No, no.
	Like nothing past about dating around.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And how did you guys meet?
	Tinder back when it was a real before pay to win.
	In 2014, Payta Win.
	I like that.
	Before, yeah, that was like the, I think it came out in 2012-ish.
	So that's pretty early on.
	And, okay, so you dated for a year and a half.
	You met on Tinder.
	And have you guys ever, was it ever on again, off again at any points or pretty much just smooth on a straight through, you know?
	We've had some crazy fights, but it's always been an actual break.
	No breaks.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	All right.
	I'm sure I'll have some more questions as the show progresses, but what about you?
	I'm in a relationship, and my longest relationship was for two and a half years.
	Gotcha.
	How long has your current relationship been?
	A month and a half.
	So you were on the show previously.
	Were you in a relationship last time you were on the show?
	No, you asked me this question and I told you I was in a situationship.
	So it upgraded to a full relationship.
	Yep.
	Boyfriend?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	A month and a half.
	Who popped the question?
	Him.
	There was a mutual one.
	Kind of as a result of seeing the podcast, which is a little funny.
	Wow, you owe me something.
	I don't know.
	I was going to say.
	So you were on the show, you were in the situationship.
	Your guy you were seeing.
	He watched the show, I guess.
	I honestly don't even think so.
	Our other friends had watched the show, and I guess it had just come up in conversation.
	And I mentioned to him some joke that was like, hey, sorry, I kind of, it might have been obvious it was about you because our friends were watching it.
	And yeah, I told him that I said I was in a situationship and then, you know, snowballed to a conversation about that.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So thanks.
	Yeah.
	You're welcome.
	Wow.
	We're really, you know, people come on the whatever podcast and they find love.
	We've actually set up a lot of people have, you know, met through this.
	Anyways, what about you?
	I'm single.
	I've been single, like, outside of serious relationships for about three years.
	I've kind of dated around the past few months, but I did it for choice.
	And then dating is just like really bad in your 20s.
	It's like no fun.
	So I stay single.
	My longest relationship was four years.
	Four years.
	Is that the one that ended about three years ago?
	No, that one was like a year and a half ago.
	That relationship ended when I was about 21 or 22-ish.
	Gotcha.
	Who ended your longest relationship?
	It was kind of like a mutual thing between the both of us, but he more so was the last person to block, finally.
	But it was really, really toxic, like blocking, sending each other emails.
	He was an alcoholic, so he spent a lot of time.
	Like when he was sober, he'd never talk to me.
	Then he'd get like blackout drunk and call me every single day for like four years of my life.
	So it was a lot of fun.
	Good times.
	Oh, it's exciting.
	Good times.
	Love that.
	Yeah.
	And your most recent relationship, which you said was about three years ago, which you said was about a year?
	Yeah, that was like a little over a year, but after a year of hating, that was very finished that sentence.
	After a year of hating.
	After a year of hating each other, we actually became best friends.
	Oh.
	He knows.
	We're watching.
	I'm not going to say names, but he knows I'm on here today.
	He's watching.
	So hi, we love you.
	It's a good foundation for any friendship or prior hate.
	Yeah, block each other, take cats.
	What about you?
	I am single, and my last relationship, which was also my longest relationship, ended in 2021.
	We work together for almost two years.
	All right.
	Who broke up with who?
	I broke up with him.
	Gotcha.
	All right.
	Any particular reason?
	We didn't like each other.
	Didn't like each other?
	No.
	How long were you dating?
	Two years, almost.
	Didn't like each other, but dating for like a comfort thing.
	It was the kind of thing, like I was, I was doing my stuff, you know, like working, training, whatever.
	I think as I heard, he kept claiming to be, you know, in love with me, but would always tell me all these things he didn't like about me.
	So I thought about it and I was like, you think you love me, but you don't like me.
	And I think we should find people that we like.
	And I, yeah, I wanted relief from that.
	So.
	Okay.
	All right.
	What about you?
	I am single at the moment.
	My longest relationship, I would say usually they tap out after a year and a half or two years.
	My last relationship ended two years ago.
	And you say they tap out after, sorry, how long?
	A year?
	A year and a half to two years, yeah.
	When you say they tap out, like all of my relationships, like the longer ones I've had, they've usually lasted like a year and a half or two years.
	But your framing of tap out.
	Like that's like such an onslaught.
	It's just where things like fizzle out like remote, romantically and emotionally, where it's like this isn't working in that way.
	I've been able to maintain friendships with a couple of my exes.
	Okay.
	And like I have relationships with them still to this day in a friendship.
	Gotcha.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you've been single for two years.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And you said your longest would typically a year and a half, two years.
	Okay.
	Gotcha.
	What about you?
	Let's see.
	I'm currently in a relationship and we've been together for eight months.
	My longest would have to be my marriage, my failed marriage.
	That was five years.
	And yeah, we have a daughter.
	All right.
	So you're divorced, correct?
	Correct.
	All right.
	You were together six years, you said?
	Married?
	Okay.
	We were married two and a half days together for a total of five.
	Gotcha.
	And sorry, remind me your age again.
	31.
	31.
	Okay, gotcha.
	And how long have you been single for?
	Well, I currently belong to someone else.
	Oh, sorry, you're currently in a regional.
	I've been living together for eight months.
	Eight months, gotcha.
	Okay, sorry.
	I got my wires crossed there.
	All right.
	Who initiated the divorce?
	That would be me.
	Okay, does he pay you alimony?
	No, he passed away.
	Oh.
	Sorry to hear that.
	Okay.
	And you said you had one kid, right?
	Yeah, we have one daughter.
	And that's with your ex?
	Yeah, my.
	Past?
	Yes, my, yes, him.
	Okay, gotcha.
	All right.
	What about you?
	Yeah, I'm married.
	All right.
	Andrew is married.
	How long have you been married, Andrew?
	Long time?
	I don't fucking know.
	He forgot.
	It's been so long, he forgot.
	Been married forever.
	All right, rock and roll.
	Okay, cool.
	So that's everybody's relationship status.
	I did want to get into some of the notes here that I had.
	Just one moment while I get those pulled up.
	Kate, did you submit any notes or maybe you texted them?
	You said you wanted to talk about like stalkers?
	Yeah, yeah.
	You asked me if there's any problems that you're talking about.
	What was the story there?
	Oh, gosh.
	What year was it?
	Do you remember?
	Is that the last house?
	2018, 17.
	Somewhere around there.
	We had a guy from Estonia try to come and it seems like marry me because he had a ring that he said he got from his grandmother.
	And he sold everything he had in Estonia, including his house and his cat, to come find me in Texas and was live streaming the whole thing.
	Even had like a donation goal before he got to America of flight to Houston.
	And I reported it to Twitch, but he just kept making new accounts.
	And so in some ways, it was useful to keep tabs on him, but it was very unhinged behavior, psychotic.
	So that was a time.
	He did come to the house and try to get into the house.
	And he came back multiple times, so even after being arrested.
	Yikes.
	Okay, so you have a restraining order?
	I don't even know if they.
	We had a, it expires after like two years or something like that.
	But then like there's a crazy conversation that kind of starts where it's like he had a, from Estonia, he had actually a working visa for a company in Miami and he just didn't go.
	And then even after, you know, they kind of made him skip town because the police in Houston, they don't really know.
	They're just kind of like, okay, you can't come here anymore.
	And then he went back to Miami and apparently picked up the job anyways.
	So it's kind of like, I don't know what the hiring standards are, or I don't know what his skill set was, but they kind of just waited an extra couple of months and he just showed up.
	Yeah.
	And you guys have a break-in recently, too, or something I saw online.
	I didn't really see the whole details.
	But I mean, you guys, you're in Texas, right?
	You guys have firearms or I do.
	I have a lot of guns, yeah.
	A lot of guns.
	Okay, maybe you and Andrew.
	Andrew also has a lot of firearms.
	Have you ever had to shoot anybody?
	He did.
	Well, not prior to that moment.
	In fact, I always thought one guy might break in one day, but three is a hypothetical.
	I don't do anything with the cartel, so it should be fine.
	So I had a shotgun and a handgun, but because she was essentially being held hostage, shotgun was kind of out of the question.
	Gotcha.
	Andrew, it sounded like you had a question?
	Did you kill him?
	How many of them?
	No, no, it was three guys all wearing masks, hoodies.
	They seem like they'd done something before, but never a hostage because they mismanaged that pretty, thankfully, pretty badly.
	They all had guns, and one guy had this ridiculous, like, super-extended mag thing.
	I remember I kept bumping into tables and stuff with it.
	But they kind of, I mean, there's a complication there is that, like, she was in front of them, and they were marching her, you know, kind of to my location, but they didn't know I was there.
	And so for me, it was like, and it's not like in the movies, you can't, you can't take that hero shot in that situation.
	And so my whole gamble was that if I yelled, get down, would she actually drop or would she create enough distance that there would actually be a shot, right?
	And it was the, I joke about it now, but it's like, you know, if I yell get down, like half the time she'd probably say why.
	In that case, she dropped to the floor super low.
	And then unfortunately, all three of them lined up, and so I only had a shot of one.
	And so I fired.
	And then like what they don't tell you is that like in that situation, you know, your adrenaline peaks.
	Yeah.
	And so there's something called like auditory exclusion.
	And so like.
	Time slows down or speeds up.
	Yeah, yeah.
	For me, no sound.
	It's like in Saving Private Ryan, it's like the white noise thing.
	Because I remember firing, and then I was like, oh no, did I forget my safety?
	Did it jam?
	And I had to look at it and watch the bullet finish, you know, ejecting.
	I'm sorry.
	You're good.
	You're good.
	The bullet finished ejecting.
	And then, you know, I fired twice more.
	It was visual confirmation because I couldn't hear it, even though I'm the one closest to the gun.
	It's very common for hunters, too.
	Yeah.
	You'll fire the shot and never hear it go when your adrenaline's pumping.
	Hit him in the lower gut.
	He bled a lot, enough that his buddies had to drop him off at the hospital directly after.
	And then that was kind of the first lead.
	And then, you know, from there, it's association and all that.
	How many times you hit him?
	Just one time.
	I was definitely, I mean, I was very nervous, but also it's just like she's still in.
	Oh, yeah, it's fucking.
	I mean, that's terrible.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So I'm terrified.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And so, no, didn't one hit, can't tell if the other one, one of them like franged a bit, and then one just amiss.
	What were you using?
	It was a nine millimeter staccato CS and these guys had it like extended mag clocks.
	Glocks, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	We kept the bullet holes in the wall as a reminder.
	Just curious, were the black guys?
	You know, like one or two of them were like hard to, it's like some kind of mix or something, and then one, yeah.
	And then the driver was like Hispanic.
	Yeah, I read some Hispanic names when they arrested all of them.
	They're all like half something.
	Yeah.
	Why did they target you?
	Did they know who you guys were?
	Is that what it was?
	I don't know if they knew who I was on a fan level, but they definitely knew that I was worth a lot according to the crypto numbers that articles have posted online.
	Yeah, it's on two levels.
	You could say the tweet that we had made ourselves, but really it was like her kind of getting called out by Hassan's people, and then they kind of went crazy.
	And then the news articles wrote about that situation, but they like to hyperlink the previous article.
	And so that's how that thing went kind of hyper-viral, 100 million impressions.
	And then these guys, you know, were just like, had no idea who she was, just was like, oh, crypto.
	Like, you know, that's a thing we can, yeah.
	So what was their big plan?
	They were going to ransom her for crypto?
	That's the craziest part, right?
	It's not, Bitcoin is not actually untraceable.
	It's not a crazy thing.
	And so it makes no sense, but they were tunnel visioning so hard because like, so she, it was like, sorry, sorry, sorry.
	You're good.
	It was like taken, right?
	Like, because she calls me and then puts on speakerphone and is like, is that you?
	And I hear like a loud banging on the door.
	And I was like, that's not even the, that's not even the front door.
	That's the master bedroom door, right?
	And then like moments later, you know, they busted the door down.
	You hear it crash and they're in there yelling.
	And for us, historically, anytime there's a bump in the night or like an intrusion, it's actually like a swatting, right?
	And so my first instinct is never to grab the gun because that's kind of the way you get shot.
	Exactly.
	But luckily, they immediately were like, you know, where is it?
	Where is it?
	She's like, what are you talking about?
	Like, the crypto.
	And I was like, that's not the cops.
	And so that's when it kind of like.
	Are they looking for a physical drive?
	Yeah, they took my phone and we were browsing through the app.
	Do you think that that's my fault?
	It's just still on speakerphone.
	They're tunnel visioning so hard on finding the crypto app that I'm on speaker.
	The guy is looking through the phone, and I was like, he's going to say something to me, right?
	And I kind of like waited.
	And like, he just never noticed the call was running and it kept running.
	That was like my intel, like, you know, like, tell of like kind of what they were doing, you know, roughly where they were or whatever.
	Yeah.
	That is wild.
	Crazy.
	So did they, so the cops got them all.
	They all in jail now?
	Yeah, they're about to be tried.
	The driver flipped really hard because, you know, he's like kind of co-partied to that.
	And they're facing just to start two counts of 5 to 99 in Texas.
	What is that?
	5 to 99 years.
	Oh, 5 to 99.
	Robber army.
	Yeah, they don't mess around in Texas when it comes to the current.
	Aggravated pinnipping is what they used.
	Yeah.
	Well, good, man.
	I mean, I know you're not supposed to say this and stuff, but like, I'm glad you got the bastard.
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm usually the guy who lets the spider outside, but like in that moment, I would have probably done something.
	Oh, you have every right to defend yourself.
	They break into your home, dude.
	And so anybody here do OnlyFans or is it just you, Kate?
	I have one.
	Oh, you have an OF, okay.
	Yes.
	Not super active on it.
	Is it like bodybuilding stuff or is it like adult content stuff?
	It's essentially an extension of stuff that I would post on Instagram.
	I don't do no nudity or anything.
	No nudes.
	Okay.
	Don't like all the bodybuilders do that, basically.
	Yeah, I mean, my whole thing with it, it's like if I have it, like I like, and I feel like I should be more active on it and like just like utilize it, but I'm not really, I respect people who like do it, like for real and are like making bank on it.
	I don't like, like, it doesn't align with me, but like I have it, and I feel like I did it because there is this crossover between that stuff and the fitness bodybuilding world.
	And I'm like, well, you know, it makes sense.
	I might, like, if people are looking at me, I might as well make some money off of it.
	But it doesn't feel good to me.
	So I'm kind of in this limbo with it.
	Yeah.
	But yeah.
	Going back to you, though, Kate, so you got into OF pretty early on, right?
	2019-ish.
	2020.
	And were you doing like Patreon before that?
	Yeah, are there before OF kind of emerged as this really giant platform, was there, it was mostly people doing Patreon before that, right?
	Or was there something kind of like OF before OF or something?
	I think it was mainly Patreon, you're right.
	Mainly Patreon.
	And when did you start, like, you do like adult-type content?
	Is it semi-nude, nude?
	What do you post on there?
	It's kind of a mixture.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	It just really depends on like, I guess, what people are requesting.
	Okay, gotcha.
	And I've seen some things online.
	You mentioned also with this home invasion story that there were, I guess, some like news stories about like, whoa, she has this much crypto and she makes this much money.
	In terms of the home invasion, it sounded like they were after some like crypto hard drives or something.
	Did you have you disclosed how much crypto you have like publicly?
	We disclosed like how much we had at one point, but not like the current amount.
	What did you disclose previously?
	Or if you want, if you want to disclose current, that's fine too.
	It would have been equivalent to like in the tens of millions, but like it was more so of a like, hey, you know, this was crazy, but like not that we actualized it at the current price, which is way higher.
	Gotcha.
	If that makes sense.
	And it was an older tweet, too.
	Like, that's what I'm saying.
	Like, the article dug it up because it was from like a year and eight months ago or something like that.
	Gotcha.
	And then you've, Kate, you've also, I think, on some other podcast mentioned terms of your income from OnlyFans.
	It's quite substantial.
	From what I've seen, these are older interviews, maybe from a year or two ago.
	Is there an updated number in terms of total earnings?
	I haven't done the math to update it in a long time.
	Do you remember gross is eight-digit seven-handle?
	So in the 70-plus million range?
	Gross?
	70.
	Like 74, 75.
	Okay, gotcha.
	And in a year, in a like a one-year period, what's the most that you've made?
	I know it was really high during the COVID years, especially.
	It was running at over like $2 million a month.
	Okay.
	Just a hair shy of 30 in 22.
	Wow.
	And how much does Uncle Sam get?
	Yeah.
	It's always too much, but we do a lot of, or I do a lot of real estate things that do 100% bonus depreciation from the 16 Taxes and Jobs Act.
	And then also more recently, they just rolled a new one.
	So as little tax leakage as possible legally.
	Oh, I mean, good.
	That's what you're supposed to do, right?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I'm sure that that's a pretty high tax bracket.
	Yeah.
	But I mean, that's just from the OnlyFans.
	You're also a Twitch streamer.
	You also, I imagine, do other things too.
	I guess really quick, just finishing off on the OF thing.
	Most in one day.
	I don't think I've ever calculated that before.
	I think it's six figures.
	I think so.
	I don't know if there's a higher one, but there's a quarter million dollar day.
	Quarter mil.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And let's see.
	You also, I'm trying to remember.
	It wasn't like Belle Delphine.
	She did this bathwater thing.
	Didn't you do something similar?
	Yeah, my hots of water when the Hotsuba was really strong on Twitch.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And the beer.
	Oh, yeah.
	You had the beer.
	What's the there's a company that contacted me from Poland.
	I think it's like Yoni is the company.
	And they make beer that matches the profile of women's vagina yeast.
	They'll like you send in a sample and they'll replicate the agriculture amount.
	The agriculture?
	That's the word they use.
	It might have been a translation about like just recreate that profile.
	They like grew it is what they were describing.
	No, no, I know what you're talking about.
	They made beer out of your vagina yeast.
	They're like, we're going to grow it.
	We're going to take the sample and grow more based on the profile of the vagina yeast.
	You can make beer from that.
	There's a chick who makes sourdough with her yeast too.
	She went viral on TikTok from making bread literally.
	Yeah.
	Oh my gosh.
	What in the name of degeneracy is going on here?
	Wow.
	Damn, that's okay.
	You learn something new every day.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so.
	Can you bring me some non-vagina yeast beer, bro?
	I appreciate it.
	Why didn't you, you should have really brought us some as a gift, by the way.
	I feel a bit insulted.
	We should have.
	Do we have any products left?
	There's like a handful of bottles left.
	I'm not sure what to do with them.
	I'm just saying, it's just not really considerate of you guys.
	Sorry.
	I've forgotten that's not.
	I'm just messing.
	We need to do another run.
	There's limited.
	Oh, there's a limited supply.
	Yeah, it's probably sitting on some shelves somewhere.
	Oh, I'm sure.
	We have like three or four bottles, and that's it.
	We don't know what to do with the last few.
	Have you sold it?
	Sorry.
	The company did.
	We haven't sold anything.
	Yeah, they sold out real fast, and a lot of it was like, as you'd imagine, like YouTubers, TikTokers who wanted to do like a viral video.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Right.
	That only helps the marketing for that.
	Drinking vagina beer?
	There were things.
	I mean, they did smoking bongs with the hot tub water.
	So it's like, you know, it's kind of like we live in a society.
	How much did you make from the bathwater, hot tub water stuff?
	Six figures?
	Yeah, it was over six figures.
	I don't know that there was a final amount.
	All of that stuff is just marketing that actually pays you to market, and it was like approaching six figures.
	I think it was right under.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	Are you going to sell your bath filled water?
	You know what?
	I've contemplated it.
	I have contemplated it.
	It's in the works.
	Maybe we can link up to some sort of.
	I'll do a hot tub stream with you.
	Is that still the best?
	We can be bottling it on stream.
	Oh, there you go.
	There you go.
	Let's see.
	I had another question on this.
	Something.
	Oh, vagina yeast, but really?
	Like, that's it.
	Yeah.
	Apparently, it tastes really good, too.
	I've been told.
	They still do it, but just not for specific girls right now.
	I didn't try because it just, I don't know.
	I tried it.
	I kind of like it.
	Yeah, that might be a little more of it.
	If you drink your own vagina yeast beer, yeah, I could see where that could be a little.
	And then, hold on.
	Oh, I also recall you, you, I don't know if you still do this like ASMR stuff.
	Yeah.
	You still do that or not?
	I dabble.
	Dabble.
	Yeah.
	YouTube like deleted all my channels, including the ASMR channel, so they wouldn't tell me.
	Oh, it's just rant.
	You wake up one day.
	Yeah, literally.
	Okay.
	Damn, crazy.
	Are there no strikes?
	Now you're one of the larger streamers on Twitch, too, right?
	Yeah.
	So I don't know who.
	Is Hassan bigger than you are as far as live viewership?
	No.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I did a kick contract for two years and kind of like that.
	Yeah, I'd say Hassan's always been like more concurrent viewers.
	Yeah.
	Gotcha.
	Yeah, you moved to kick for a little bit.
	I did.
	Gotcha.
	Why the change back?
	The contract ended.
	End of the contract.
	Okay.
	Gotcha.
	All right.
	Twitch sucks.
	Twitch sucks and has terrible TOS and is awful.
	Right.
	Lots of things happen there.
	They're pretty bad.
	Well, I mean, it's bad for politics.
	I mean, I don't know about like boobie girls or whatever, but it's bad for politics.
	Oh, it's bad for e-girls, too.
	They're pecking on both.
	Yeah.
	In your notes, you said you wanted to speak on the morality of OnlyFans.
	What were your thoughts there?
	Oh, I was just wanting everyone's opinion, so I think it's fun to go around with like thoughts.
	Sure.
	Well, I assume since you do OnlyFans, you're probably in favor of sex work, I imagine.
	No issues there.
	Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with it.
	What about you?
	I don't have any major problem with sex work, and I don't think that we should stigmatize women who do it as much as we do.
	Okay, your thoughts?
	I mean, I kind of just go with the flow.
	I don't have an opinion.
	Just look at it.
	Sorry, you're good.
	I don't really have an opinion.
	It's kind of just maybe not the most favorable thing, but it's something that people are going to engage in either way.
	They can do some good, though, for people.
	Really quick before we dive into that topic, a question for you.
	So you've been with Kate for almost 12 years.
	When you first met her, I don't imagine you were doing any form of sex work, at least when you guys first met.
	I'm imagining about midway into the relationship, you do start either on Patreon or on OnlyFans.
	You do start getting involved, engaged in sex work.
	Was this like a mutual kind of push?
	How did you feel?
	Because I've heard some guys are like, I don't know how I feel about my girl doing this kind of stuff.
	So, what was when I guess that sort of came about very initially in the beginning?
	Did you have thoughts on that?
	I wasn't like it was a way more diluted version of it, I guess.
	Like, on Patreon, it's like you know, you might gate a bikini picture behind a paywall, right?
	Yeah, they were a lot more strict.
	I still remember it was like one of the cosplayers that she followed and looked up to, who was you know, kind of big at the time, she announced that she had made $8,000 a month on Patreon.
	And, like, at that point in time, still, like, cosplay and mostly online stuff, it's like an artist, starving artist like enclave.
	And so, like, 8,000 was all the money in the world.
	And I think you kind of just replicated some of the things, and like, you know, the bikinis aren't even as lewd or whatever.
	And so, for me, that was just like, I mean, this could have gone on Instagram, and so I had no problem with it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it kind of just, as it grew, it was kind of just like a mutual discussion per, I guess, level of like more not safer work you get.
	And then we just saw an opportunity.
	Indeed.
	And like, I don't, I don't collab with other guys on it, right?
	He's the only guy I've ever been with.
	So it's a lot of solo stuff.
	So it really came up as an issue.
	Okay, so you don't do external BG content?
	No.
	Do you guys do BG content together?
	No?
	Yeah.
	We've taken advantage of how the talk goes.
	And sometimes we'll do a TikTok or a story where there's an implication that there might be another person there and then they might even show up.
	But it never actually makes its way into the content.
	Okay.
	But you guys haven't actually done anything together on that.
	Okay.
	And has any of the OF stuff created any relationship issues at all?
	Any conflict?
	No.
	I don't think it's like not the OF stuff.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it's like it's more just, you know, working with your spouse is like a whole different ballgame.
	I don't think it's specific to OF.
	I think it's just more specific to, you know, us working together.
	And like, I joke that we're like, you know, married maybe 20 years because like, you know, what is the average person's, how much time does the average person spend with their spouse in a year, right?
	We're like, I think, what, within 40 feet of each other for the last 11 years?
	Yeah.
	That's got to be doubling up on, you know, how much time you spend together.
	Yeah, because he does like all the analytical parts of social media and the strategy and stuff like that.
	And I just, for the longest time, would just live stream and then I would film content.
	Do you have other people come in and film your scenes?
	Like for the other day.
	Yeah, we've had other girl photographers in the past, but now mostly just a tripod.
	Oh, gosh.
	It's time scaled back.
	During the heyday, we had like teams of people and then they would come up with everything, ideas and stuff.
	It was very professionalized, kind of like what you guys have here.
	It's like her getting run through a list of like possible topics, trending things, things that are working, and then her kind of checking off what she wanted to do.
	And then they would just film and they would like knock it all out in one day in a month.
	And then that was kind of the, yeah.
	But to be clear, sorry.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	There's you don't do any other male to female content?
	No.
	Just solo stuff.
	Yeah.
	Because I did, I don't want to do some RD before I came, and I did subscribe.
	And I was like, okay.
	And I thought I saw, because I can usually tell, but maybe it's just toy manufacturing.
	It's gotten very, very good.
	But I promise it was, it looked very real.
	Thank you.
	It's funny because the brand of that toy is called Real System.
	Did you just say that you subscribed to her?
	For RD.
	Oh, okay.
	Research and development.
	And then she had a sale.
	It's called Real C, you know, Asterisk CK.
	That's what those are called, yeah.
	Because they are hyper-realistic.
	So now it's $130 million and $15 million.
	Is that because of you?
	You put it over?
	Oh, that's what it's.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Real chicken.
	Yeah.
	Does it bother?
	Does it bother you at all, like, that there's thousands, tens of thousands, millions of men just being fucking degenerate gooners over your wife?
	Does that bother you at all?
	I guess I've always approached it from like, you know, who doesn't want to be potentially married to like an A-list, you know, a Hollywood star, right?
	And it's like, that happens whether she makes, you know, like any kind of content like that or not.
	You know, like it's unavoidable.
	And so it's almost just like if it's happening, you know, like somewhere, then does it really happen?
	Well, I mean, it definitely happens more, though.
	No, for sure.
	Like significantly more.
	So, yeah, that's, I guess that's the heart of the question.
	It's always hard for people, I think, to reconcile, myself included.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, if you're if your significant other is undressing for people to see, you know what I mean, and doing other things.
	I'm guessing that there's other scenes that you do, masturbatory, things like that.
	I'm guessing that that's like, it's got to be tough to watch, though, right?
	No?
	I think maybe like, I agree.
	If I was dating someone who was doing OF before I was kind of steeped in all the thing, I think so.
	But because of the way it kind of started, we were kind of on the thing together.
	Like every part of it was like, huh, is this something that we would do potentially?
	And if so, like for what, right?
	And I think when the decisions are made in that way, it's a little different.
	It feels like there was either of us could have basically been against it, and that probably would have been the end of it.
	But both of us were kind of on board, and then we could kind of tap out whenever we wanted to in theory.
	Are you going to have kids?
	We kind of decided when we were dating that we didn't want kids.
	Yeah.
	We spent a lot of time with my brother's three kids and that's kind of the way she gets the kids feel.
	Yeah.
	There's a lot of animals.
	The question that comes up, obviously, all the time, I'm sure you've heard it before, is like, what happens when little Johnny comes home and is like, I got beat up at school because, you know, people are like, look at your mom.
	And like, what's the navigational principle there?
	Even if you have kids that aren't yours but are around, that could happen to them too, right?
	Especially considering if people are breaking into your house, I'm guessing, and I hate even saying that, but I'm guessing you've been doxed all over the place like most of us have, right?
	So, I mean, that's a real possibility, right?
	So how do you navigate that?
	I have a variant perception on that.
	Like, when I hear it, it's kind of like, I don't know, like, I can see where that logic, you know, kind of comes from.
	And especially like if you say like, you know, like in the mid-2000s, little Johnny grew up and his mom was like one of the first online, you know, P-stars.
	That would be kind of a, I think that would be pretty bad, right?
	But like, I think going forward, the way I see it, OF became so ubiquitous.
	And then like, you know, it's still not like fully like, you know, like a P company studio production.
	Yeah.
	I actually think that like no one's going to care by that time it rolls around.
	But we already have those kids.
	Like we have reports of kids getting bullied over it.
	And then one kid, he, you know, he unlied to himself, right?
	Because of the incessant, like, kids are cruel, right?
	They can't help themselves.
	It's part of how they engage with the world, especially young men.
	You know, like you probably remember when you were in school, we're all assholes.
	So, I mean, I fully expect that that's not going to change, right?
	I think, I mean, this is probably a den view of society, but I think that like, you know, having financial resources is going to be way more important than like that social aspect because like especially now, like, I mean, sure, you can bully a kid for his mom doing OF, but you can bully a kid for anything or nothing at all.
	And incessantly, 24-7.
	Yeah, but it's like scalable, right?
	So if you're getting bullied for being fat, it's like, okay, you can lose weight, right?
	If you're getting bullied for being ugly, maybe you could do some things about that, which kids, behalf of bullying with men, for instance, is part of that, like, look, you need to get your shit together, right?
	In order to be part of the in-group.
	But you can't like take that part away, right?
	You can't take that.
	You could even be like, well, mom quit.
	Mom stopped doing it.
	And we don't care.
	They got the videos, right?
	In the information age.
	So I think isn't it like scalable that way?
	I actually think I feel worse for the people who are going to get bullied, whose mom didn't do OF because like, how hard is it to be like I found his mom's OF and she never did it?
	What do you mean?
	I mean, everyone uses a screen name.
	You just have to find someone who kind of similarly look like you know their mom potentially would at a younger age.
	You can like there's gonna be kids manufacturing that as a way to bully and so, like you know yeah, but there's still.
	You can still uh, hide behind the fact of the matter, right.
	So like, if it's the case that you're, you're saying like, but yeah, I got it, but the fact of the matter is, and when we're looking at AI, here's something that's interesting because you bring up a good point.
	I hadn't thought about this before.
	Like okay well, they could just make this shit up anyway.
	Right, I was in a discord call the other day with a zoomer I was talking to I don't remember some politics something, and he sent me an AI video and I had to take a double take at it.
	Like I thought at first it was real and I realized something important, which is that because of this age gap, I got great social skills.
	Zoomers didn't really get great social skills.
	They got different skills and one skill they have is when it's fake media, they can fucking tell in five seconds like it's crazy.
	They can just look at it and be like nope, that shit's fake.
	Look at this this this this, you can.
	They can tell that shit and it's because their brains have been wired towards that.
	And mine was not right.
	It was wired towards having social interactions, so that built a different skill set zoomers.
	They have a completely different way in which they engage with the world.
	So i'm not I guess i'm not all that convinced that even if AI advances, if your mind is being wired with the AI as it advances, it seems like you can tell way easier when it's bullshit.
	I definitely think there's an element of that.
	Like it's very bad for like Boomery people.
	Like I had a therapist show, you know, I don't know why he did it in the middle of the session he showed me an Elon Musk video that I was like I I didn't, I didn't know how to tell him that that's not Elon Musk saying the right thing, but like uh, on that note um, I would love to see the study where it's like you know able to tell that that's uh AI.
	But like, what is that person's position on the video?
	Because what i've found is that if you want to believe it, you're gonna buy the AI.
	And it's like kind of like a lot of times when you're neutral or you don't want to believe it, where you start looking at it Critically, and you'll see the seams.
	If you want to believe it, and that's the bullying part, right?
	If your kid wants to bully my kid, even if she never was on OF, boom, AI, there's a video.
	Look at that.
	And especially if your kid's popular, just point it around.
	Look, his mom's on OF, right?
	And that can happen to anyone's kids, whether their mom did or didn't do it.
	Yeah, it's kind of like that.
	But like I said, I agree, but you still have the fact on your side.
	And so it's at least something to give you vindication.
	Like, hey, this isn't even true, right?
	This is nonsense.
	I agree with you that you could do this with anything, but I think that you at least have a shield if you're like, no, that's all bullshit.
	My mom, you know, my mom is a dietitian in Chicago, okay?
	She's not, she's never done any of that.
	And I do think that their brains are wired a little different where they can tell, like, and they even, they even have the name, right?
	AI slop.
	That's AI slop.
	It's AI slop.
	That's AI garbage.
	They can tell in five seconds.
	It's because that technology, they're growing with it.
	And to us, we're being introduced to it, you know, rather than having it part of the relational, you know, now maybe you and I different because we're streamers.
	So you probably see AI slop all the time, right?
	Like constantly everywhere that you're looking.
	But for the average person, I don't think that's the case at all.
	I think that Zoomers are seeing a lot of it and they're messing with it and they're playing with it.
	They're playing with the music.
	They're playing with everything.
	But they seem like they can detect it pretty easy.
	And anytime you have like a generation which is interacting with a specific type of AI, or not AI, technology, it seems like they can spot when things are faked by that technology much easier.
	For now.
	For now.
	How will it be in 10 years?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	You know, I've been hearing that about AI for a long time.
	And, you know, I remember the old chatbots.
	You know, the old chatbots used to be able to search the internet and pull all kinds of stuff up too.
	I know that people are really kind of getting behind the old AI is going to take over the world thing.
	I'm pretty skeptical.
	We have to be clear between a functional generation with programs that can create pictures out of just, but it uses a data bank, if you will, of pictures that it can collab together and then produce a result that looks very real.
	But we must also understand in our generation is that AI is the highest form of plagiarism.
	It can only produce what has already been produced.
	And yes, it does like sew things together in a way that it makes it something that's different.
	But just like programming, like as a programmer too, it suggests code that's already been written.
	Jonna, did you have a question?
	Oh, no, no.
	I just had thoughts on something that was spoken about earlier regarding like bullying of the kids of OnlyFans models.
	And I think when it comes to a bullying issue, I don't think people should be told to like fix the thing that they're being bullied for, or like even on the parents' end.
	I think that has a lot more to do with the bully in general and that bullying itself should be countered.
	So if you have a bully who's going to incessantly bully a kid of an OnlyFans model to the point where like their life is severely negatively affected, regardless if they come across that kid or not, or there's no more OnlyFans models, that kid is still a bully and they're still going to find a target and relentlessly bully them for whatever.
	So I think that's where the issue should be countered rather than saying fix what you're being bullied for.
	Thing is, it's interesting.
	You have these conversations on bullying, especially, or things like this.
	If you wanted to improve the status of your social group or somebody wants to be a part of it or something like that, isn't there a certain amount of hazing that's just kind of intrinsic?
	Like there's a bit of hazing, which is just kind of always part of the process of human social activity.
	So if you're going to tell a woman, for instance, that she was really overweight in high school and like, you know, it's unhealthy, right?
	And maybe, you know, she's not the most pleasant person to be around because of it, you know, or something like this.
	How do you even approach that without it reaching the aspect of bullying?
	Like, what's the difference between marking you need to do this for self-improvement and not like it can't both be perceived as bullying?
	I don't think it's people in her school's job to like meanly make fun of her weight or anything.
	I think it's the job of people in her life, such as her family, if she's overweight, to like let her know about that and make sure she becomes healthy.
	Yeah, sure.
	But those people who are good.
	Yeah, but those people still want to be part of social groups because we're human beings, right?
	And we're pack animals.
	And if you want to be a part of a social group, they're going to have some kind of hazing ritual for you, no matter what.
	Well, you're talking more about like a clicky popular group.
	Not even a clicky popular group, just every group.
	Today in like schools, there's like normal people who aren't weird like that and who won't like reject you from the people.
	Well, it doesn't seem to be the case or we wouldn't be crying about bullying all the time all over the internet, everybody, right?
	Oh, I've been bullied at school.
	I'm bullied at school and bullied at school.
	And it's like, you get through the details.
	A lot of times it looks like regular social hazing to me.
	Now, I understand edge cases or extreme cases where it's just like incessant and they just won't lay off, right?
	Even when I was in high school, that was the case.
	But that sort of social hazing still happens.
	And to some degree, I think it's pretty healthy to have social hazing.
	It kind of puts people the direction that they're supposed to be, where they're supposed to go, the groups that are more in line with what their values or structures are, right?
	And isn't that part of the hazing process?
	Well, you just mentioned being in line with people's values because that's what friendship is based on.
	It's based on character.
	So if you were rejecting someone from your friend group or not being friends with someone because of their body shape, I think that's very superficial and beyond the scope of healthy social.
	Do you think so?
	Man, I'm not sure because like overt characteristics can tell you a lot about a person.
	Like for instance, let's take her for instance, right?
	There ain't no way that that didn't take you years of hard ass fucking work to do.
	There ain't no way, right?
	That took years and years.
	And by the way, the diet that like IFBB pro-bodybuilders have to go through, holy shit, it's so brutal.
	That's a lot of discipline.
	So people like that are probably not going to, you know, they might have people or IFBB, you know, pro-friends or things.
	But the value structure is kind of leaning towards I'm very disciplined.
	I'm very regimented.
	I'm very goal-oriented.
	And by the way, I can stick with something in order to get to the results of that thing.
	And so if other people, if they're like morbidly obese, for instance, right?
	That would be setting out the flags.
	Hey, I have completely different structured values than you do in the way that I live life.
	Right.
	And wouldn't that be a red flag for you and like your social group?
	Like, hey, maybe, maybe we should vet this person a little bit.
	And I think that that's healthy.
	I mean, I think I certainly agree that like overt, like your appearance can't, like, for example, in that example, can tell you a lot about a person.
	But I still think friendship goes a lot beyond that.
	Like, if you really had a genuine connection with this overweight person, then I think you could still certainly have a good friendship with you.
	I think we're saying the same thing, right?
	But you're talking about a connection barrier now, right?
	So how do you connect?
	It wouldn't barrier me from connecting a lot of normal people.
	Sure, sure.
	I'm not saying you specifically.
	I'm just talking about a connection barrier between social groups and other people.
	And it's like, look, it doesn't look like it's changed that much to me.
	Usually ugly kids hang out with ugly kids and good-looking kids hang out with good-looking kids and fat kids hang out with fat kids.
	I wouldn't say it's that binary.
	What's that?
	Well, it's not that clean, but you get what I'm saying, right?
	Like social groups seem to formulate around similar value structures.
	And so it's like.
	Well, that's not fully value structured.
	Can I say something about that?
	Well, I think it is because that's what the example is when you're talking about like somebody who's regimenting.
	Ugly kids hang out with ugly kids.
	Being ugly is not a value structure.
	No, no, that's not the value structure.
	The value structure is the tell of like how's this going to interact with my group structure and how's this going to interact with the way that I interact with other things.
	That's how people, now we don't do that.
	We don't think about these things, right?
	They're kind of intuitive.
	But that is how social paradigms work.
	We vet people based just even purely on looks.
	We do this.
	You're going to be way more likely, for instance, for a guy to pull over and change your tire if you're good looking.
	And that's if you're a guy or a girl, right?
	Rather than if you're obese, guy or a girl.
	And the reason is, why do you think that is?
	It's like, it seems like.
	Yeah, people judge based on appearance.
	But what I also want to add is, having just graduated high school and witnessing clicks and friend groups all around me, I want to say that the most long-lasting, healthy friendships or friend groups don't take those superficial external factors as seriously.
	There wasn't hazing in these groups?
	There was, but the groups that took that more seriously did not last as long, did not have as healthy of a group dynamic.
	They would talk about each other behind their back.
	Like, I mean, that's common.
	Friend groups and friendships that are not so based on those sorts of things are a lot healthier and better.
	And I also want to ask you a question.
	If you had a close friend who suddenly gained a lot of weight to the point of becoming overweight, would you suddenly distance yourself to them?
	Oh my God, we would be so mean to him.
	We would be just, I mean, we would be fucking horrible.
	But the thing is, it's like, I had a time where I gained a bunch of weight.
	People were fucking horrible to me.
	And the thing is, it's like, it's kind of good, right?
	It's kind of good.
	It's like, there's a motivating factor.
	Like, look, if you, I hate to bring this back to you again, right?
	But these like IFBV pros and these bodybuilders and shit, they are the meanest fucking people to each other.
	Oh, to each other.
	To each other.
	To each other.
	Yeah.
	They're the meanest fucking people to each other, right?
	But it's not malicious.
	It's a lot harder, yeah.
	It's not malicious.
	It's like it can be a lot of the time to other people.
	I know.
	From the outsider's perspective, if you were to see some of these people when they're working out and they're like, no, pop it up, you pussy.
	One more, you know, like, but there's a powerful motivator there that's not designed to be malicious.
	I want to throw in, but to people not on that level, I would say generally these bodybuilders are the kindest people.
	Put ourselves through in our minds and our close people through.
	We know what that's like.
	We like no one's worse to myself.
	And I completely believe that.
	But a high school bully who's relentlessly bullying someone for their weight to the point of effing up their mental health.
	What I'm saying is social hazing can draw those kinds of extremes.
	And therefore, that's why I believe in counting hazards.
	Yeah, social hazing and then bullying to the point of like someone's life are totally agree.
	I'd love to say something about that because I went through that horrendously growing up.
	So I actually got kicked out of school.
	I was put in a therapeutic day school.
	I self-harmed for 12 years.
	I was obese until 19.
	I was a binge eater and then I got diagnosed.
	I flip-flopped and went into anorexia for three years.
	So I lost a bunch of weight.
	It was over 330 pounds.
	But I got blackmailed, right?
	So I got blackmailed by two high school boys who like sent my photos around the school.
	And kids every day would come to school and tell me that I was fat and pick on me because I grew up with well water.
	And eventually I got kicked out because I was constantly suicidal.
	I was in and out of the mental hospital.
	And this was when cyberbullying became like a big thing.
	Like everybody was on MySpace.
	Everybody was on Facebook.
	Now I can say it has motivated me as a person now.
	When I was 13 to 16, I was cutting myself every day and I was on mental health pills and I never fit in.
	I was never accepted.
	And it's still to this day, like where I'm accepted now.
	I created that community.
	I started an online community that I run around the world with women.
	It's been hard for me to interject myself into society in a way that other people accept me, whether they see my arms or maybe I'm really high anxiety.
	And it caused, it took me years to love myself.
	Years and years and years to come to a place where I was like, I don't care what people think about me.
	I'm going to dress how I want.
	I'm going to listen to the music that I like.
	And so I think I do agree with what you're saying, where it does, it can be a motivator, but I really think it's.
	I don't even think, I think this can be misconstrued a bit.
	So when she said there's a difference between hazing and bullying them to the brink of like going to unalive themselves, I agree with that, right?
	I do think that there's social hazing, though.
	And I think that it is healthy, and I think that it is necessary.
	And it doesn't even always have to be super brutal.
	Like the way that women socially haze, usually I think that that's actually more brutal than the way that men do.
	Okay.
	I think it's way more brutal than men.
	It's like, usually look at each other and we're like, you fucking idiot.
	You're wearing the wrong shit.
	And we push each other and shove each other and do shit like that and whatever.
	No one cares, right?
	But women do all kinds of like backbiting and rumor mongering and all sorts of things to shit test.
	And it can be, I understand that, right?
	But what I'm saying is that social hazing itself, I think that if you take the bullying aspect and you say, well, we have to eliminate social hazing because it can lead to bullying.
	I think that that's when you're going way too far.
	You're going outside of basic human interactions because we do kind of need to socially haze each other a bit.
	It's kind of necessary.
	I would like to add, I do kind of think that we are acting as if like we're talking about social hazing as if it's like the only way to push someone in the right direction.
	I've had very kind, very supportive friends tell me that something I was doing wasn't good for me and like really encourage me.
	And it has like, those have been things that have changed my life.
	Friends who did that, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, the social hazing comes before the friend comes.
	That's part of the social hazing process.
	That's where you're kind of developing the group dynamic, right?
	The social hazing happens before there's a friendship.
	Yeah, but if I meet someone that I don't like in some way or I, you know, their values don't align with mine, my goal isn't to change them.
	My goal is to find someone who I do want to be friends with.
	Yeah, I understand your goal may not be to change a person, right?
	But you probably have people that you find unpleasant to be around.
	Absolutely.
	Or you don't particularly care for their company or you don't like them very much.
	You don't like when they're around maybe friend groups that you have.
	And that's where social hazing comes in.
	It's the idea of like creating a rejection of space between you and other people because you don't want them either a part of your life or a part of the people around you's life because they're just unpleasant for you to be whether they're unpleasant or not has nothing to do with it.
	They're unpleasant for you.
	And that's kind of what social hazing is.
	I just think that we're completely capable of doing it in a way that isn't like mean.
	That's it.
	I don't, I think that.
	Yeah, I know that there's a big emphasis when you talk about this issue between men and women, where for women, there's a value structure that they have around, I call it the cult of be nice, right?
	Where it's like, be nice means everything.
	Men aren't really that way.
	They don't really give a shit about nice, really.
	It's not all that important to us.
	And so we talk about the issue in a totally different way, right?
	That's how we discuss the issue.
	But I don't think that women, even though they ascribe to be nice, that box of be nice.
	I don't think they actually are.
	I do not like the word nice.
	Yeah, I think kind can be kind.
	Kind, good.
	Yeah.
	But good is not equivalent to nice.
	That's not equivalent to nice.
	So it's hazing kind.
	It can be very kind, yes.
	Can be.
	It's not, it's well, it's developing yourself.
	No, it's not.
	It's called the gateway to bullying.
	You start there.
	That's right.
	Well, okay, well, then, I mean, speaking is a gateway to bullying then.
	Well, I would also say, social hazing is a lot more proximate because it's about judging others for something.
	Yeah, unfortunately, though, we make value judgments on things all day long and on people all day long.
	And that's good that we.
	I keep saying value judgments, but these are superficial judgments.
	No, no, no.
	I'm saying you make value judgments on people all the time, rightfully so.
	So, like, for instance, if it's really late at night and there's a homeless guy who has a needle and it's going into his arm, right?
	My guess is you don't stick around that area very long, right?
	Well, you're judging his values, aren't you?
	Okay, but then.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Aren't you?
	Yes, I am.
	Yes, you are.
	So you're making a value judgment.
	And so what I do is I put distance between me and that person.
	But the kind of social hazard.
	You're socially hazing.
	The kind of social hazing you're talking about seems to be more like unwarranted comments and like actually going out of your way to say something to that person, like, oh, you should lose weight kind of thing.
	You know, I'm not sure.
	That's the examples you were giving earlier.
	I'm not sure that it's unwarranted.
	I would consider what you just did there, where you're like, I'm not going to be anywhere around that to be a form of social hazing.
	I'm completely, I'll say I'm completely fine with that form of social hazing.
	Beyond that, I don't really agree with.
	Are you sure?
	Like, I think I can think of a lot of times where maybe there would be people around who you don't particularly care for, right?
	But maybe you're getting to know them.
	And as you're getting to know them, you know, maybe you guys, you're talking past each other a little bit, starts with a misunderstanding, and then maybe later on you become friends, right?
	The way that this is going, though, in the beginning, right?
	The reason you have misunderstandings and things like this is you're both kind of pressing each other.
	Now, you may be doing this on the undertone.
	Respectfully and maturely.
	Yeah.
	Maybe, or maybe not, right?
	It depends on the person.
	And respectfully and maturely is going to mean different things to different people.
	Like for men, respect means something totally different than it does to women.
	And so does meanness.
	Meanness means something totally different to men than it does women.
	Can we add context to this?
	Like, let's say there's a person in the street, they've got a needle from their arm.
	You know, it's like, I think we are all within our rights.
	If we don't know this person, we're going to like, sorry, like, it's not my, sure.
	Not my yard, not my problem.
	I'm going the other way.
	But you're not going to be able to do that.
	That's not bullying, though, or even hazing.
	I think hazing is like, okay, now my close friend just, you know, fell off the wagon.
	And what do I do as a person?
	Will I be nice and just pretend I didn't see anything?
	Or will I be kind and say, this is becoming a problem for Dr. Surrey?
	I don't believe that's social hazing anyway.
	Yeah, that's not.
	Just looking out for your friends.
	Hazing is like a totally different, like, like, if you think of like sororities and fraternities, hazing is like you kind of humiliate yourself.
	Yeah.
	It can be.
	Like, fuck with your friends.
	Like, just mess with your friends.
	Or if you have.
	I think you're just making a decision on how you want to position yourself.
	Okay, so do I make fun of my friend?
	That's it.
	Yeah.
	In order to get them to path.
	Sometimes.
	Like, sometimes, for instance, yeah, it can be very healthy to do.
	I'd say, wait, that seems like a fine balance versus like, let me just be straightforward with you.
	Look, sometimes it is the case, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, but sometimes saying, look, what you're doing is kind of silly.
	Doesn't work as well as you're a fucking idiot.
	And that's the truth.
	Sometimes saying, look, you know, maybe you should calm down doesn't work as well as you need to shut the fuck up.
	Sometimes that form of interaction actually works better to adjust behavior than the cult of be nice.
	And I think that I think, by the way, that women are just superficially nice most of the time anyway.
	Not actually nice.
	It's just a very superficial way that they engage.
	And I think that men are kind of more open and honest about how it is that the basic human interactions work.
	Like Your perception of me, if I was around my friend group, would be that we were really mean bastards.
	But we're really not.
	Like, I mean, we pick each other up.
	If someone's having problems, we make sure they have financial issues.
	We're going to take care of it.
	If they got, you know, social issues going on, we have their back, this and that.
	But we're going to call them all kinds of names and we're going to rib them.
	We're going to make fun of them.
	We're going to clown on them.
	And like, that, yeah, that's all part of the social interaction of people.
	Yeah, I think that's totally cool between close friends in a friend group.
	I just, I wouldn't say you should be like using that kind of language on maybe someone you don't know well.
	No, usually we do it within 20 minutes of someone you just met.
	You're like, hey, fucking idiot.
	Look what you just did.
	And they're like, you know, they give a lot.
	That's part of what social hazing is.
	Like, it's very common.
	It's very, very common for men to do this.
	Mr. Wilson, have you heard?
	I know you're a very well-educated man, well-read, well-spoken.
	One of the things.
	You're definitely not well-educated, but don't you have a like a degree in religious studies?
	And no?
	No.
	Okay, must have been wrong, Wilson.
	Okay.
	My RD was wrong.
	Chat GPT.
	If only I had an OnlyFans, you would have known all of this.
	I spend too much time R D V. This is me and my boyfriend.
	Anyways, but okay, so I must say you're going to melt down here.
	Okay, go ahead.
	What?
	May I get it?
	My point being is there's a famous 19th century author by the name of Charles Baudelaire, who created this beautiful essay on laughter, saying that it is actually satanic.
	Do to people like, for example, finding comedy of someone else's pain, someone who slips and falls, a lot of people who aren't involved will go and laugh at them and say oh, that's you know like, because it's just a, it's a guttural reaction um it's, and I think it's pertinent because it's when, when people laugh, it's either due to the madness of their own uh,
	superiority.
	or to the inferior inferiority of others.
	And I think that hazing is.
	I was just about to say, do you think children laughing is satanic?
	So that's this, is not this.
	I'm lost right now.
	There's a specific with a with a kid.
	With a kid it's a bit of a different story.
	They mimic, they learn, and so when they're expressing joy, it's joy tickle is is a bit different.
	You know, I used to think I used to think a lot of the things you like with kids, for instance, that kids just mimic, until I had them.
	They don't just mimic, they have their own little thoughts and they have their own little like.
	They're little human beings.
	That's true in development, I agree with that.
	But they're not just mimickers.
	They're not.
	We're not born blank slates.
	People have personalities ingrained in them and you can almost see it the day that they're born.
	You know, you can almost see, you can almost see it right away and uh, yeah.
	So I don't, I don't believe in blank slate theory.
	I don't think that that kids just mimic what they see and that's what they become.
	I think they have a personality associated With it and the environment correlates with that.
	And then from there, they become the human being they're going to become.
	And I would just, I would just point this out too: that like I was listening to a comedian this morning who was cracking me up.
	He was talking about our jokes, right?
	He was talking about our jokes.
	And of course, those are taboo.
	You can never make those.
	They're terrible, right?
	They're horrible.
	But he made this great point.
	And he said, you know, the reason that people made our jokes and laughed so hard about them, right?
	Everyone was laughing wasn't because they hated women.
	It's because when you think about all of the things that are funny, it's really shit that's fucking morbid and horrible.
	And the reason that we're laughing about it is because we're taking, we're making sense of the morbid world that we live in and we're giving it context in a way that we can kind of deal with it.
	And that's what the whole point of like the best jokes really are.
	And if you really think about it, now, I mean, maybe not you, maybe, maybe not you, maybe every unclean joke is terrible and you have no sense of humor.
	But the thing is, like most people, for most people, kind of like the more morbid the joke is, right?
	The funnier it can really be.
	And that's why he was saying, like, you know, you gotta, you gotta start drawing some lines here on what it is we can talk about, can't talk about, comes to our jokes.
	Or in this case, when it comes to social hazing, you're not allowed to do that because, well, after all, that could lead to bullying or it's a gateway.
	And it's like, that just, I think, ignores human interactions altogether.
	So anyway, I'm done with my task.
	I was going to say, first of all, I'm not against every unclean joke.
	I'm all for edgy, dark humor here and there.
	But when it comes to our jokes, there's a lot of people who aren't laughing at our jokes or making them because they're trying to make sense of the morbid world we live in.
	They're making these jokes because they don't care about what women are doing.
	What are they doing because they don't take it seriously?
	That's every joke.
	But that's kind of a bad thing.
	So then no morbid jokes because somebody could be taking it seriously?
	No jokes made in that insensitive manner.
	Right.
	No, nobody's allowed.
	Nobody's allowed anymore to laugh at insensitive jokes because you think they're insensitive, even though this is how we engage with the world.
	I'm saying no one should laugh at or make our jokes.
	I know.
	I know that you think that, but my argument to you is like, then why can they laugh at any insensitive joke?
	Who gets to decide which insensitive joke a person gets to laugh at and which one they don't?
	So, I mean, with an R joke, you're making reference to like women going through a traumatic experience and their consent being violated.
	And, you know, there's lots of people who are going to be able to do that.
	And when black people are talking about slavery and making jokes about that, right?
	This horrible thing that's terrible, right?
	What are they doing?
	They're contextualizing and they're laughing.
	When Blazing Saddles, when Blazing Saddles had a scene where it's like the sheriff is the N-word, right, with a ding and they were clowning on slavery and clowning on Jewish people and this type of thing.
	The whole point was trying to make sense of this like horrifically morbid world that we live in.
	And how else do we engage with it except to laugh about it?
	You can make sense of your own experiences or regarding like your own demographic, but to laugh at someone else's suffering when it's like so then no insensitive jokes allowed?
	Well, I would say the line that I would draw is like, okay, well, it's obviously not going to be a clear line.
	Yeah, it's not a clear line.
	When it comes to like, it's just kind of common sense, though.
	Like, it's, it's.
	It's not kind of common sense.
	Okay, well, you know, like, I find things funny that you don't find funny.
	And what makes it common sense that you're allowed to find them funny and I'm not.
	Okay, let's say I have a friend who like did something really stupid and like I make fun of them for that and that's like an edgy joke or whatever.
	Or whatever.
	Like your friends making fun of each other.
	That's like one type of edgy joke.
	And then when it comes to an R joke, that's something that there's a lot more to.
	There's a lot more like, that's a lot more to be serious.
	We understand.
	Do me a favor, scoot three inches that way, move your mic along with you.
	Halloween happened pretty recently.
	What do you think about people who dressed up as Charlie Kirk?
	I'm sure you've probably going to know about that, actually.
	Going to the very liberal college and university that you go to and being a confessed, pretty leftist person, you seem to, at least the last conversation we had, also with you, you guys seemed a bit not so displeased with the fact that Charlie Kirk was assassinated.
	I was very displeased.
	I made that very clear.
	Given this, given this, I'm sure there were people, college students, many leftists, who dressed up as Charlie Kirk with a fake wound to their neck as a Halloween costume.
	Do you think that's a good idea?
	Wait, would you find that humorous?
	I don't find that funny.
	I want to make sure you're consistent in your objection to humor.
	I don't find that funny because that's something that's like very serious and he just died.
	And I think that's disrespectful.
	And also, like, you kind of pointed to me, like, oh, people like you did that.
	I mean, I think there's a separate, a distinction that should be made between normal leftists and people like that.
	Well, I just want to ensure that when you're going to be policing dark humor, that you don't just, you know, you have a fair application of that which you're policing.
	Okay, you know what?
	I think when it comes to crimes, traumatizing events, like that's where I say it's kind of a weird zone.
	Okay, so a family guy makes like a 9-11 joke.
	No good.
	Too dark.
	I mean, I personally wouldn't make it.
	Again, I don't, even when I say like, I'm not a huge fan of this kind of joke, I don't go around like policing people and saying, hey, don't say that, don't say that.
	Yeah, but I just surround myself with people who have a better sense of humor.
	I get that.
	Because you can be funny with people.
	I understand that, like, for you personally, that's probably the case.
	But you would admit, I think, right, that there's tons of left-wing organizations that do.
	And they do de-platform people for making those jokes.
	And they do actually try to, you know, make it so that people become depersoned for life for making those jokes.
	I mean, I think that's like a free speech thing.
	And I wouldn't, I don't believe in depersoning or de-platforming people.
	Yeah, right.
	You can cancel people.
	That's not free speech.
	But I think it's the very idea that people advocate the idea that anything is so insensitive that it's just, you know, you're just not allowed to go after it.
	I agree.
	Like, look, some of that shit makes me mad.
	Like when the Charlie Kirk stuff happens, makes me mad.
	Makes me mad too.
	You know, and I'm like, look, what are you fucking doing, you piece of shit?
	Sure, that's terrible.
	That's awful.
	You know what I mean?
	But on the other hand.
	Why does that make you mad and not an R joke?
	But it making me mad doesn't mean that I don't understand that people like this who may be saying insensitive things or having sensitive jokes that offend my delicate sensibilities, right, aren't actually doing that because they're trying to make sense of the morbid, like the morbid stance of the world.
	Now, there's a difference between that.
	I don't think that's what's going on.
	There's a difference between that and like, the guy deserved it.
	That should have happened to him.
	You know, that's a different whole, that's a different thing altogether, I think.
	But even people who are doing it like that, they're not like trying to, that's not the process.
	that's not the thought process that's going on in people's heads a lot of people who are making how do you know what's going on in their heads because Because of the sheer amount of people who make jokes about Charlie Kirk out of like just like blatant disrespect and like, oh, I hate him, F him.
	Yeah, those people, but those people.
	Those are the majority of people who are.
	Those people are making the intent known.
	So like, for instance, somebody's making an R joke and they're like, yeah, those bitches deserved it.
	That's most of our joke makers.
	No, it's not.
	The thing is, is like, look, if that's the case, it's like maybe you have a leg to stand on there, right?
	But just like you would with the Charlie Kirk thing.
	But it's like just to make a joke, you know, in regard and it has the R word somewhere in it.
	You know what I mean?
	And people laugh and now it's just too insensitive or, you know, a racial joke or something like that.
	It's like, at some point, you got to stop the oversensitive, like being overly sensitive to these things.
	Because it takes away a useful tool people have for dealing with the world.
	You can make sense of the world and of events in much better ways.
	Just educate yourself for that.
	How do you know?
	Like, what makes you think that you get to know that?
	I understand these events and I understand these things without having to make these.
	How do you know that you can govern how people interact with the world with humor?
	Like, humor is very important.
	I'm not governing others.
	Yeah, humor is really intersubjective and it's really personalized.
	And the thing is, is like you can say an offensive thing to someone.
	You didn't even mean it to be offensive.
	But it's also not just about you and how you're using tools to make sense of things in the world.
	It's about everybody but you.
	It's about the nebulous whole.
	No, I'm saying it's about also having just respect for, for example, like women who've gone through that or people who, like 9-11 or Charlie Kirk.
	Like, I think it's good to just have respect and a certain level of sensitivity towards things like that.
	The same way the Charlie Kirk thing pissed you off, which I think it's really interesting that that bothers you, but then like our jokes don't.
	Do you see the distinction?
	If somebody saying, if somebody, didn't I already qualify this?
	Like somebody said, Charlie Kirk had that coming.
	Good.
	He deserved it.
	That's what people are saying.
	That's what people are doing.
	Somebody's saying, oh, she had it coming.
	She deserved it.
	No, they're not saying that.
	So do you think they're like, oh, that event was so shocking?
	Let me dress up as him for Halloween so I can process this shocking event.
	I think there's some people who didn't think that he had that coming and just were trying to be edgy.
	I think that's the case.
	I've talked to him.
	I could talk to him on TikTok.
	I didn't think that now there was also some of them who I fucking knew, okay, wanted, and they would tell me.
	They'd be like, yeah, I wish that guy would fucking die.
	Good.
	Do you notice how you can be a normal individual who just like sees what happens and processes it normally without dressing up as him and how that's maybe like a better thing?
	Yeah, I get it, but we have to have contextualization for things.
	Contextualize things normally and don't be a weird person.
	Well, there's no rude joy.
	So what's normal?
	Is trans normal?
	What?
	Is trans normal?
	Are trans people normal?
	Yeah, is being trans normal.
	I mean, it's not like, like, most people aren't trans, so I guess it's not.
	It's not normal.
	So we can't.
	So then I should process trans people the normal way by being like, well, it's not normal.
	Is that how I should do that?
	Okay, I'm struggling to understand how you're like.
	Well, I'm just saying.
	You make these appeals to normalcy.
	And if you make an appeal to normalcy, you're like appealing to, well, that's not normal.
	What you're doing is not normal.
	It's irregular.
	It's not normal.
	It's like, well, then you have to apply that to everything that's not normal.
	Okay, so are you saying like, how does someone process the existence of trans people, given that it's not a common thing?
	I think they use transition.
	You say, okay, you want to identify that way.
	I'm going to mind my own business.
	I think they use humor.
	That's what I think.
	I think most people use humor to process it for the more.
	I mean, most people don't make our jokes and dress up as Charlie Kirk and joke about that kind of thing.
	I agree.
	Most people don't do that.
	And I'm glad most people don't.
	But I do think that people make very morbid jokes about Charlie Kirk that don't mean him harm, just like I think they're not.
	And I don't think that's a good thing.
	I don't think it's good to make Charleston.
	I know you don't.
	But my point is, again, I know you don't think so, but I'm making the case that I do.
	A lot of people don't think so.
	Yeah, but that's nice.
	But I'm just saying, like.
	And that's a better society than if everyone works.
	How do you know that that's a better idea?
	It doesn't seem like curtailing what people can say is a better society.
	It's one based on less judgment and out of more respect for other people.
	Is that it?
	Is that what our highest value should be?
	Just less judgment on people?
	Because society's gotten pretty fucked up since we stopped judging people.
	It's gotten pretty fucked up.
	In case you didn't know, what age do you think you're going to be able to buy a house?
	Hopefully in my late 20s.
	Hopefully in your late 20s, maybe early.
	I don't know how my whole life planned out.
	I'm 18.
	Yeah, I know, but maybe your early 30s.
	Depends on the trajectory of my career.
	It gets worse and worse and worse every single year, right?
	Are we talking about the economy now?
	It's not just the economy.
	It's the entire judgment of society.
	The way in which we engage with society at large has now been put into this box of be nice.
	And it's like, you know, maybe, maybe if we were a little meaner, it'd be like, you know, no, fuck that.
	You shouldn't have to wait till you're 30 to buy a house, right?
	Now, fuck that.
	And fuck you.
	Or maybe you shouldn't have to be afraid of it.
	Or maybe you could look over and you could be like, ah, you know, maybe a lot of these SA cases actually would go down if it were the case that people interacted better with the environments that they were in, with the clothing that they wore and the people that they were around.
	Like, that makes fucking sense to people.
	It's like, well, that's too much.
	You can't say that.
	It's like, I think you can and should.
	You can say something without making a stupid joke about it.
	Yeah, but I mean, how that's processed by people is often through humor.
	That's my point.
	What do you find acceptable to joke about?
	Like, can black people joke about white people?
	Like, make racial jokes.
	Can you give me like a specific example and then I'll like say yes or like if I find that exception?
	Can I make a racist joke towards white people as an example?
	Can you as a white person?
	I can't think of one off the top of my head, but why don't you answer my question first?
	Is it okay?
	Like there's this concept of punching up.
	Can you call me a mayonnaise eater?
	Can a black person make like a racially insensitive joke towards whites?
	A joke?
	Yeah, they can.
	Can a white person?
	Oh, no, no.
	Are you saying if I think it's right or wrong?
	Or if they, what do you mean?
	Like, are you asking me, do I think should black comedians never direct any sort of joke, racially, racial jokes in the context like white towards white people?
	I mean, I don't think that's nearly as severe as like a R joke.
	But I'm not, again, I'm not here to say you should do this.
	Now, grant it's not as severe.
	Are you against black people making jokes about white people?
	Like racial jokes about white people?
	What is a racial joke you can make about a white person?
	Okay, can you make a sexist joke?
	Like towards women?
	Towards anybody, but sure, towards women.
	Well, yeah, you can make a sexist joke.
	Are there such things as sexist jokes?
	Are there such things as racist jokes?
	Yeah, I'm just curious, like, what a racist joke is towards white person.
	Because usually there's not as many judgments towards being white.
	Like, oh, you're white.
	For the sake of conversation, I'll go ahead and grant it, but you can still make a racist joke about white people.
	Are you asking me if I think that's right or wrong?
	First, I'm asking if it's possible.
	Well, purely because I struggle to think of an example of that kind of joke.
	I'm like, a little bit of a drug.
	Well, whether you can think of an example or not would be irrelevant.
	I don't need you to.
	I just don't know what that looks like, you know.
	Well, could you think of a racist joke towards a black person?
	Yes, because there's a lot more of like, there's a lot more connotations.
	How about just like a joke that involves the C-word or something?
	Are you asking me if I think that's right or wrong?
	I mean, I personally like, I think it's like not the best word to use.
	Okay, but should we preclude, or would you be in favor of precluding black comedians from making racist?
	Like policing them and saying like, hey, you should do that.
	You can't say that.
	Well, okay, in the same way that you say we shouldn't make rape jokes, right?
	You're totally.
	That has to do with like a whole crime.
	Again, I'm attaching the biggest.
	I understand it's different.
	I'm policing the highest point.
	You would agree that racism and rape are both bad things, right?
	Yes.
	And you might categorize.
	Racism towards white people today is not as bad as sexual, like full-on rape.
	How do we put that in?
	I'm willing to.
	How do you get to make these judgments?
	Who the fuck makes racism?
	Let me ask you a question, Andrew.
	If someone uses the C word on you, is that less harmful or more harmful than a woman getting?
	From now on, everything you say on this topic, listen, everything you say on this topic is going to offend me, so it's inappropriate for you to say.
	Again, I'm not policing other people.
	Okay, just ask the questions.
	Depends on someone's level of insecurity.
	I just want to hear the question.
	I'm not Cuban and Irish, and everybody always says that I'm white, but do I get personally offended by that?
	No, I don't.
	I don't care.
	And I've been sexually assaulted.
	Hold on, I'll make this super simple.
	I'll make this super simple.
	I don't understand the level of getting to decide on what's like so offensive for you or anything and like how racism is any worse than sexual assault because it's actually about the same.
	They're both crimes against somebody, their dignity, who they are as a person, their cultures.
	And like, at the end of the day, really just like surround yourself with people then that have the same interests as you do.
	Like, I'm super blunt, super witty.
	When I first meet a guy, I'm pretty rough off the bat.
	I want to know if he can joke and have fun and stuff.
	You would have to provide like a specific example.
	Like, if we're talking about racism, this can be anywhere from like very mild forms of racism to like full-on, like, let's, you know, like full-on slavery.
	Like, if slavery were to come back or something, we could probably make, you could probably make the argument that if slavery were to come back in totality and like chattel slavery, yeah.
	Okay.
	And, like, you know, how do you say that?
	Chattel.
	Chattel slavery.
	Chattel.
	That's totally my point of view.
	Like, what's the comparison now?
	Like, I would probably argue.
	I would probably argue, like, because I don't know why you're trying to bring this here.
	It's kind of irrelevant to the line of questioning.
	But, like, if we enslaved like a million people in this country, that would be worse than like one individual essay.
	So in any case, like, sort of, I guess when I'm talking about racism, like, you know, a racist joke, I don't even know why this is even.
	Yes, of course, like an actual act of committed rape.
	Yes, that's obviously worse than a racist joke.
	There's no dispute there.
	In any case, though, should black comedians, I'd like an answer to the question finally, should black comedians be precluded from making racist jokes in the direction of white people?
	When you say precluded, do you mean like policed, deplatformed?
	Because I don't believe in that kind of thing.
	Okay, you said people should not, should not make rape jokes.
	Right?
	Is that your position?
	I don't think it's a good thing.
	Again, I don't go to the market.
	Do you think it's not a good thing when black comedians make racist jokes about white people?
	It's not a great thing, but it's not as bad as the R jokes because, again, it's a different degree.
	Right.
	I understand.
	But again, I want to just say, I really do mind my own business when it comes to other people's policies.
	Let's really quickly get into shit.
	I don't police other jokes.
	So should any comedian, I guess, not make rape jokes.
	Oh, I mean, do I think it's a good or a bad thing?
	Because again, I don't believe in policing other people.
	Well, it's a bad thing.
	I think it's a bad thing.
	I think it's a bad thing they shouldn't do it.
	Yeah, sure.
	Okay, should black comedians then not make racist jokes about white people?
	It's not as bad.
	Sure, I grant it.
	It's a little more of a gray area.
	It's a little more of a gray area.
	Okay, should white comedians not make racist jokes about black people?
	I don't think it's a good thing because is it worse than racist jokes against white people?
	I think it's worse, yeah.
	Interesting.
	I mean, if there's like a whole like history of like oppression and marginalization there, it's like there's a lot more depth and layers to it.
	I have one chat coming through here.
	Claim donated $299.
	Thank you, man.
	$300.
	Brian, WTF, you trying to buy a plane?
	Andrew, you have been ruled.
	How do you circumcise a redneck?
	You kick his sister in the jaw.
	Okay.
	We have as a reminder, guys.
	We have Reed is 200.
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	Guys, if you're enjoying the stream, like the video, like the video.
	And eyes, thank you for the membership, man.
	Okay, a couple quick things.
	We have two other chats coming through, then we can continue on with the convo.
	All right.
	Adzils.
	Yo, Brian, your favorite.
	Britt is back.
	Andrew, welcome back at Salute Boys Need the Avengers to assemble before Christmas.
	Andrew, Cupil, and Jake on the big panel.
	Free facility Felicity, Michael Jackson, is king.
	He's at Adzils.
	How's Q doing?
	Have you had him on recently?
	It's been a while.
	It's been a while.
	But yeah, it'd be good to have him back on here.
	He's a nice kid.
	Good guy.
	My man, you're good looking, got drip, good shot with a gun and rocking the fedora like MJ.
	Smooth criminal.
	Can we get a hee?
	Yeah.
	But you decide to settle for an OF Muppet.
	Why are you talking shit about my homie K.
	I didn't do OF when we met?
	We decided to go into that together.
	And where do you think the drip came from?
	Hello?
	Do you think you had this before?
	But isn't that objectively worse in a way?
	No, he's not settling for like an OF Muppet or whatever.
	It was more of like a.
	It was more of going into a business opportunity together.
	Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.
	Like, wouldn't that in a way be where like if you had a wife and she wasn't engaged in prostitution and then you engaged with her in prostitution, I consider OF.
	Where's the prostitution?
	I consider it prostitution.
	Oh.
	Selling sex.
	Okay, well, I can consider anything to be a label.
	Yeah, I mean, yeah, but I think that there.
	Well, look, I'm just telling you how I consider it.
	I consider it prostitution.
	I think that sex works broadly falls under the category of prostitution.
	But if that's the case, it's like, if your wife wasn't engaged in prostitution, then was, right?
	That seems to me even more objectively worse than if she was a prostitute and then, you know, maybe later she wasn't or whatever.
	That almost seems objectively worse.
	Like almost you allowed the corruption to happen type of thing.
	I think that that's the intent of the chat anyway.
	Well, I think the part I think that I focus on is like the settle.
	And so it's like, yeah, I think anytime you feel like you're settling, that's like probably something you should consider again.
	But like, you know, that's the presupposition being made, right?
	Because if it's not settling and I'm okay with it, then what's the issue, I guess?
	Well, our marriage notes.
	If he doesn't want that, that's it.
	Yeah, that's true.
	But I think from the at least if you look at the social categories of morality, if you're talking about, you know, in this case, prostitution, that's usually going to be in one of the lower categories of morality.
	I'm going to consider that low on the moral scale for work or whatever it is that you're doing.
	So if that's the case, you're like, well, this person was not engaging in that immoral behavior before and with you.
	Now they are.
	They'd almost think like you assisted in the immoral behavior.
	Does that make more sense?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Or at least I just didn't weigh in strongly against enough, I guess, would be the thing.
	I mean, it started off as like kind of a compliment, and then it went to like, why'd you settle for this person?
	So it feels like he's just wanting to attack her because I don't think any of that characterization is particularly true.
	Yeah, well, I mean, it's commonplace for especially the Christian right to be pretty heavily against OnlyFans work and prostitution because they consider it categorized the same exact way.
	So, if that's the case, like that's part of their pushback in society is they don't want the normalization of it.
	That's the whole goal, right?
	No, I agree.
	I think it's terrible for like a normal circumstance.
	Most girls who do OF, they will not succeed and they just ruin any kind of social dynamic they would have had with a potential partner or like a workplace or anything.
	I think most of the time it's not good.
	I think the difference with us was we already had each other, we already were in a good financial spot before even starting social media in general, as most probably should be.
	But the criticism that you would hear most often there, because I've heard this a lot, right?
	Like, there are OF or sex workers or prostitutes who will come on the show and discuss their, you know, kind of like the inner workings and dynamics.
	And what I've noted is there are some who will say, like, look, I'm a success story.
	And that is true.
	Like, almost nobody's going to succeed at OF.
	That's true.
	Almost nobody's going to succeed as a podcaster.
	And almost nobody's going to succeed as a great welder either.
	Okay.
	Like, it's really hard to succeed as one of the kind of like cream of the crop.
	You probably know this from IFBV.
	There's lots of people around who are really strong and really buff, but they never, they just never get anywhere.
	It's like most of them, right?
	And the cream rises to the top, as they say.
	But I would just point this out: that one of the big criticisms that comes when sex workers say that is that they're just trying to pull the ladder up.
	So the idea is like, hey, it actually behooves me to say not to engage when you're 20 years, you know, or not in your case, 20 years, but like 10 years younger in sex work because now you become a competition, right?
	So you're pulling the ladder up by saying, well, you couldn't be successful at it.
	That would be the other criticism back.
	Sure, I've heard that.
	And I can definitely see that perspective, but it actually is just very unlikely just because of how saturated the market already is.
	I'm just giving you the criticism, but I actually do agree with you that it's like extremely unlikely that most women will succeed at it.
	And it's just baffling to me why so many still go into it.
	But I think another point to Mr. Wilson's point is that with you, remind me your name again.
	Nick.
	Nick.
	Okay, Nick.
	You've obviously protected Kate physically from physical harm and fended it off successfully.
	However, I think one of his points he was trying to make is that since you two started to date, it progressed and you both made the decision to start OnlyFans.
	However, did you do that with full consciousness that of the ramifications, like mental, spiritual ramifications that can affect a woman?
	That's, you know, just she got you got in at a brilliant time with Twitch, and that truly did send you off on a rocket ship.
	But that illustriousness comes at a cost.
	There's like things that it comes at a cost, yeah.
	I think that I would have felt more strongly about that if I was thinking of ever actually making real content like penetration or even like just doing scenes with other men, right?
	Because it was mostly solo and it's toys and it's not even real.
	It feels more like smoke and mirrors for profit.
	It feels more like acting to me than it does actual sex work, even though it clearly falls under the illusion of sex.
	Yeah, you're selling your body.
	In the end, that's the difference between actresses that star in big films and porn stars.
	It's that one's selling their body, the other ones are selling a story or a film or a product or a lingerie suite, even.
	But it still begs the question.
	By engaging in explicit content creation, you almost were, you were taken hostage.
	Okay, like it would.
	Wait, was I wrong?
	Did I miss the story?
	I thought you were taken hostage in your own home.
	Miss Kate.
	Not from the sex work.
	Yeah, that was like, I'm assuming they assumed, I mean, I don't know where they attributed the crypto coming from, but it wasn't actually that.
	We'd done, you know, like obviously the kick deal and this, you know, steak is sometimes a component.
	And so all of that is just very crypto-oriented.
	Yeah, it was from live streaming, like live streaming articles.
	It wasn't an article about OF or anything.
	Oh, okay.
	So I was attributing the fame there towards that.
	No, I would say that mostly came from Twitch, not even like OF, really.
	It came from, how can you say that?
	Because I streamed on Twitch for like over 12 hours for several years, like every day.
	Yeah, like at one point during her peak, we have some, I guess, closeness with some people who work with like XQC.
	And I was like stunned because at one point in like 21 and 22, she had more unique people coming into her stream a day.
	The difference is that they stayed like a minute, you know, whereas XQC had them stay an average of 50 minutes, right?
	And he was streaming to like hundreds of thousands of people, and then she had like 10,000.
	It's like her stream became a place where people checked in, and like it was like just a huge exposure generator, like, you know, over 100 to 300 million impressions monthly just from that site alone.
	And so it's definitely the fame.
	But like, not to sterilize it too much, but like for us, if you want to tell the actual story, it goes like Patreon didn't start off as a sexy site.
	Neither did OnlyFans.
	Or Twitch.
	Yeah.
	Or Twitch.
	Yeah, they're both mutual position sites, right?
	And so for Patreon, it was like, oh, okay, so you can sell some photos just like how cosplay people sell prints.
	Cool, right?
	And then when OnlyFans rolled around, it was literally, wait, that's a bigger platform with more users.
	And so we're going to do what we do now on Patreon on OnlyFans.
	And then like maybe within the next year, it became the porn star site.
	I hear you, but let's talk about the genesis of Amaranth, where it started off as a Twitch stream.
	And it, what happened?
	Progressively, did it become more scantily clad?
	Did it get more promiscuous?
	Did you start cosplaying more sex in more sexy costumes?
	And then it became less of an art and more of like, hey, look at my appearance.
	I actually think that a lot of my bikini streams were my most artistic moments because I would dress up as a pigeon and I would flap as I licked microphones and laughed to the bank.
	So I would say that's pretty powerful art.
	I'm pretty happy with it.
	So moving off that though, I want, since Andrew's back at the table, there was a moment there where there was some disagreement about the categorization or the term used prostitution.
	Willow, in your notes here, you write, you had a disagreement with Andrew calling sex workers prostitutes.
	And you write, sex workers have far more rights and access to their money.
	Prostitutes are more human trafficked.
	Do you want to elaborate a bit?
	Yeah, I've actually been waiting for this moment because I watch you guys a lot.
	This is more so Andrew's argument.
	It's your moment.
	I know.
	I'm ready, Andrew.
	I'm ready.
	Get me a beer for her moment.
	I got it.
	This comes mainly because I am also focused on starting a nonprofit.
	And a big focus on that is the exploitation of children and human trafficking.
	My best friend was a prostitute.
	She passed away when I was 18 years old from heroin, addiction, and prostitution.
	So I have first-hand experience with the diverse difference on how being prostituted, pimped out, especially on the streets directly, there's no choice.
	You don't have access to money.
	You're lucky if you eat, get to shower, get to sleep, all of that.
	You're put on drugs, you know, and then sex workers, it's a choice.
	You do what, an I-9 or whatever, and you pay taxes on your OnlyFans money.
	And like, you get to choose buying yachts and traveling the world and like eating food and having nice stuff.
	So I think there's a huge difference on like being a sex worker and OnlyFans model and having a choice.
	And then there's also that middleman of the escort where that person is still most of the time pimped or working for a business, but they have far more access to their money.
	And I just think that's the difference of like your rights as like a prostitute, being on the streets, working out of hotels and motels, and then also being online or being a stripper, too.
	You know, it's like most of those people have access to their money in prostitutes.
	So that's basically it.
	So I think, okay, so I listened to what you had to say, but here's my counter.
	Please give it to me.
	You're just redefining what prostitute is because you want to make a delineation because sex worker sounds, thank you, at least socially, less bad, less impactful.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	But that's really what you're doing.
	You're just creating, you're just redefining terms, even though, no, you're wrong.
	We're defined legally, too.
	They're defined legally.
	Like, they change those laws in most cities.
	They're defined legally.
	They protect prostitutes.
	Yeah, but prostitution is a universal term.
	It's not just a localized one.
	So whether or not we locally define it a different way than Venezuela or whatever, universalization of the term is not really in question.
	If you have sex with a man in exchange for money, you're a prostitute.
	Or if you do it in exchange for goods or in exchange for services, you're a prostitute.
	But most OnlyFans models do solo work.
	Like you do mostly solo work and only do work with your husband.
	So how could she be a, like, you know what I mean?
	Let me help you out.
	If a woman, right, goes up into a hotel room, okay, and she gets naked and a guy jerks off to her naked while she's playing with herself and he finishes, did she engage in prostitution or not?
	If he pays her, I would say yes, she did.
	Then your argument's moot here because most women these days don't go to hotels.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Your argument would be moot.
	If you consider that woman to be a prostitute, the only distinction here is a video screen.
	And so it's like, I don't know how you make that argument in good faith because you just contradicted yourself.
	If it's the case that a woman goes up to a hotel room, gets paid money and plays with herself until a man ejaculates and all you put between that is a barrier of a screen.
	How do you not still consider it prostitution?
	That makes no sense to me.
	Well, it's like my important distinction.
	So then OF is giving a percentage of money to a digital pimp.
	I mean, what's the distinction?
	I think it's mainly when it comes to that.
	But you can't just agree and then still want to redefine because it's like, what's the difference between the guy comes in, your black pimp comes in and runs security and he has a toothpick in his hand.
	You know, he looks like he's wearing a suit similar to this and he comes in and he has a toothpick in his mouth and he's like, he's like, hey, man, you know, I'm a pimp named Slickback and you've got to give me $30 of the $100 you just made because I was outside making sure nobody came in here and bothered you.
	And the prostitute gives him 30 bucks and out he goes.
	What's the difference between that and her just having 30% automatically deducted from what she made to the digital pimp?
	What the fuck is the difference?
	But how would you define prostitution?
	Because no one's defined the term.
	I did define it.
	I would consider prostitution to be sexual favors, right?
	Or selling sexual services in exchange for profit or goods or money or services.
	I mean, so like, hey, if, you know, I'll have sex with you if you give me this part in a play.
	I consider that prostitution.
	I can understand the argument because you're looking from currently and you're saying like with the technology available, this should be considered as that.
	I feel like a lot of the stigma and antiquity around the term is because of what it physically actually was.
	What I mean.
	I mean, like people actually, you know, like the woman who would become undesirable, she would be kind of downcast in society and then she would get like meager amounts of money and then be kind of physically, you know, like used by men.
	Can you explain how that was worse society?
	Like, how's that a worse society that there's a stigma?
	Oh, no, there's not, but it's like it seems like that's a better society.
	Put a distinction between uh playing Call of Duty and shooting someone, right?
	And you could argue that, like, there's an amount of that where it's like, well, you know, I'm pulling triggered someone else's.
	Now, wait a second.
	I got to take issue with this.
	So I understand what you're saying.
	You can, you can have like you can have the digital deed of like, I play Red Dead Redemption, and you know, I'll like lasso a chick and run her on the railroad tracks just to watch a train hit her because I think it's hilarious, right?
	There's a big distinction between that and real-time application.
	So I agree with you that nobody's actually getting hurt in Call of Duty.
	This is all fiction.
	This is all pixels on a screen, right?
	This type of thing.
	That's not the case here.
	Nobody's, this is not a digital display.
	This is a human display with the intent of creating a sexual environment so that men can basically be sexually gratified in exchange for resources.
	I don't know how you get around that exactly.
	For me, the point was actually just that, like, definitely real war violence.
	Would you call like video game war violence?
	I would say not, right?
	It's a representation, but like.
	But it doesn't meet the criteria because there would have to be something in material reality which was happening for there to be violence.
	So if I say cartoon violence, why do I have to caveat it with cartoon?
	Because we're talking about we're making the caveat because this is something not happening in objective reality.
	Sure, but then I feel like you lose some granularity with the term when you just throw that in the same.
	I mean, I can understand doing that.
	I don't see it that way because I think you actually just lose context, right?
	Like when you go, oh, she's not going to be able to do it.
	I think it adds context.
	Like, doesn't it add the most amount of context?
	Like, because you're being reductive, though.
	I think that it's reductive the other way.
	I think that you're parsing instead.
	And that's where the reduction is going.
	I think that it's actually, I think that my term much more broadly captures what it is that people are talking about when they're discussing prostitution.
	And I just, I don't understand why, why, like a corn star, for instance, the only distinction is that you're viewing it through the lens of a monitor versus in person.
	You're doing the exact same thing, though.
	How's that not prostitution?
	I really don't understand that.
	I think it just depends if you define it as like, is a male getting off to this or is she fucking somebody in the same room?
	Whether it's like masturbation says someone has a cuck fantasy or they just like to watch her.
	Okay.
	Is she with the guy in a physical space?
	I think that's how most people would define prostitution.
	So then by that definition, you would have to consider OF models who slept with men to be prostitutes.
	I could see that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And then you would also have to say that all corn stars were prostitutes, right?
	But do you see, though, how now we're only parsing out you with your particular type of content?
	That's not prostitution.
	Only all of this other type of content is.
	Doesn't that sound really convenient to parse it out that way?
	Like because it excludes me.
	I feel like it's still important, though, for like the individual.
	Like in the case she mentioned, where it's like some prostitutes, they don't have a choice who they sleep with.
	Right.
	Well, I consider that slavery.
	I don't even consider that to be prostitution.
	So if it's the case that you're being forced to sleep with men against your will, that's not prostitution.
	There's no intent there, right?
	That's sex slavery.
	That's a whole different ballgame, right?
	People who are human trafficked.
	Yeah, they're human trafficked.
	You don't need to call those people prostitutes because they're not.
	And I don't think we would.
	I don't think most people would be like, you were sold into sex slavery when you were 10.
	You were a prostitute.
	It doesn't even sound right, rolling off the tongue, right?
	So I think that we would put that in a different category of a sex slave, like a legitimate one.
	I'm not talking about the LARPing sex slave shit, but like that would be slavery.
	I don't think that fits the criteria.
	Prostitutes have agency.
	It is true that they do conventionally go to pimps and have less access to their money.
	They're paying them for protection.
	But there's many of them who do have access to their money.
	Who's paying their pimps for protection?
	Because most people are either pimped out by their abusive boyfriends or they are taken off the street.
	I mean, even here in California alone, like having a gorilla, but there's like three different distinctions.
	I'll give you some examples.
	And gorilla pimps, especially are the most I'll give you examples.
	I've had they abduct people, and most prostitutes don't get way $30 out of 100.
	Like you give the whole 100 and you're lucky to get a McDonald's cheeseburger and it's a little bit more.
	Well then, how could you make the how could?
	Then, how could you make the distinction that this relationship isn't a pimp, a pimp, prostitute relationship, if he, if he's, getting a massive portion of that money because they're married.
	In fact, because they're married and share assets, he's entitled to 100% of the money.
	So is that, does that mean that he's her pimp?
	Well, hang on, hang on, let me ask you, does that mean he's her pimp?
	Because in this case, there's sex work going on with his wife and he's entitled to 100 of the kids.
	In other words, he could legally, right now, drain all of her accounts right this second, or her him right and just leave tomorrow and spend all of it, and it's not illegal.
	So it's like how, how would that not make that the same relationship you're talking about again?
	Think it's just like subjective and by choice on, like who suggested it first, like how mutual that decision is.
	You know, because you can be in relationships where you're manipulated, you're gaslighted into it, you're convinced like hey, this is good.
	I feel like i'm being gaslit right now.
	Honestly, you're a hot woman and like you're capable of it.
	How's this not gaslight?
	Lighting, I mean isn't, isn't what's going on right now?
	You're trying to get me to accept a definition of prostitution that would be one ahistorical and b wouldn't actually encapsulate what it is that we're trying to talk about.
	What we're really discussing, which is women who are engaging in selling sex or sexual gratification to men and women uh, in exchange for goods services money, like that's what we're talking about when we're talking about a prostitute, and that matches with a much more historically accurate term.
	And, by the way, there have always been elite prostitutes who did have access to their money absolutely, escorts.
	Well, i'm talking in the historic term.
	Right, there's always been a historic term.
	Yeah, there is historic term.
	That's the, isn't it called the oldest profession?
	I agree with you what i'm saying about escorts and prostitutes.
	There's levels to this.
	There's like distinctive levels.
	To like a prostitute, sex slavery is underneath prostitutes, I agree.
	Then there's escorts, but hang on, more access, they dress higher.
	I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but I have to.
	I have to be a little bit nitpicky.
	I don't think that you're saying when you, when I hear you say this, it doesn't sound like there's levels of prostitution.
	There's granular difference between the types of prostitution you're engaged in.
	That's the difference, Difference.
	It's all prostitution.
	It's all under sex work.
	Hang on, hang on.
	This is the box of prostitution.
	Sex works a better descriptor of it.
	Sex work.
	No sex work falls under the box of prostitution.
	Yeah, and it's drum and bass, and there's rhythm and there's dubstep.
	It's like sex work.
	It's the genre.
	Read the definition.
	There's the sub-genre.
	Please go ahead.
	I'd love it.
	Yeah, so I just Googled the definition.
	This is from Oxford Dictionary.
	And just also off of Google, prostitute.
	A person, in particular, a woman, who engages in sexual activity for payment.
	Do you disagree with the definition?
	Well, like, if I record a video of myself right now masturbating online and then sold it to somebody, that wouldn't me be me to do it.
	Yes, it would.
	You'd be a prostitute.
	Under this definition?
	is where people get like what do you mean by engagement like physically or like yeah how's me I guess what I mean?
	Like a prostitute.
	Well, engagement would mean that you're either physically interacting with it, right?
	Or you're in some way socially interacting with it.
	But I would say it's much more physical than anything.
	But that doesn't mean touching.
	So like physical activity.
	Like, for instance, again, if it fits the criteria that if a guy's jerking off in a room while you're masturbating, you're not technically being, there's no touching going on.
	But I would definitely consider that, and so did you, to be prostitution.
	There's a risk that he could touch her.
	You know, like there's a chance because he is there.
	Well, whether performing that occurrence.
	I'm not sure that that's, again, I'm not sure how that would interact with the definition to make it not.
	Because the definition was made before the internet was.
	So they never perceived this concept of a man can jack off to a woman.
	They had Playboys.
	They had Playboys before the Internet.
	And they had pictures of nudie women before the Internet.
	Requesting a custom.
	I think that if you were engaged in Playboy, if you were completely nude in a Playboy or a hustler was even worse, right?
	Let's say hustler, then you can't even use the model aspect.
	And you have things shoved into yourself in a hustler magazine, which they often did.
	Yeah, I think that's prostitution.
	I think that definitely, like, you're getting money in exchange for you participating in the sexual gratification of other people with intent.
	So like, I think the difference between there could just be a really sexually attractive woman, I agree, that crazy dudes online are just going to fap to, right?
	Or not even crazy guys, maybe just really attracted.
	They're fapping to her, whatever, right?
	But she has no intent for that.
	That's not her intent.
	Her intent is not to make them do that.
	And that's the distinction.
	And it's like, it's very clear that the intent for the sex worker, I would say prostitute, is to do that.
	And so I think that's a distinction.
	I don't think it's that granular, really.
	So it depends on the intent of the woman.
	Yeah, it would depend on the intent of both.
	Both.
	So the man purchasing and the woman.
	Yeah, the woman's intent is to do that.
	Gotcha.
	Wait, I have a question.
	If there's like an influencer who like posts herself like clothes, let's say, and she gets money for being an influencer, and there's a guy on the other end of the, or like who watches her, or like consumes her content, who like gets off to her.
	Yeah, the intent of it.
	She receives money, even though he gets sexually gratified.
	Is the intent from her specifically to sexually gratify him in exchange for the money in her body?
	Yeah, it's always going to be like everything.
	That's what the difference between killing and murder is.
	He could have killed a man, rightfully so, by the way.
	But that's not murder.
	Even if he had killed him, that wouldn't be murder because of the intent difference.
	He wasn't intending on hurting somebody and killing them because in some way that meant something to him.
	He was intending rather to defend other people who couldn't defend themselves.
	And so now it falls under self-defense, right?
	Or falls under justifiable killing.
	Yeah, I mean, I don't fully disagree with your use of the term prostitution, but I think the reason why I would be more partial to using the term sex work is purely because throughout history in society, we've used the term prostitute to describe a woman who like or someone who performs a sexual activity physically with or like gives sex, physical sex.
	And I think that's not as bad or that is worse than the OnlyFans model does.
	We didn't just use it for penetrative sex.
	We used it for dancers.
	We used it for all sorts of people who engaged in sexual.
	We would call them prostitute dancing, prostitutes.
	Yeah, strippers.
	Strippers are definitely prostitutes.
	People would use the word stripper more for a stripper and prostitute.
	Well, hang on.
	In modernity, but you were asking about a historical standard.
	Okay, well, including modernity.
	Yeah, so I mean, a historical standard prostitute was actually much dighter than this, like anything that fell under sexual activity.
	And I would focus more on modernity and how it's the term's used in sexuality.
	Even in modernity, I think my term's more useful.
	And here's why.
	So I guess here's the distinction.
	I think that she wants the term distinguished because she wants to eliminate stigma.
	But I also think it's to help break barriers.
	It's to eliminate stigma.
	You have to have distinguishing factors.
	And especially in society and law, they have changed over the years on talking more on the human trafficking size or sex slavery to help create space.
	So I think it's about stigma.
	And I think that what it is, is it's an attempt to reduce stigma around activities, which I think, and most people, I think even agree with me, should be stigmatized.
	And so we don't want to change the definition to make it less impactful because it makes you feel better.
	No, I do think OnlyFans like, and like, I'm not against OnlyFans, but I do believe stigma should stay because, again, a big focus of what I do is about protecting and not exploiting children.
	And I think especially with social media today, like, especially young girls, like they're being horrifically brainwashed into being convinced that this is the only way that they're going to survive or that using their bodies online and becoming TikTok famous is like the only answer for women.
	And then porn is like so easily accessible for men now that it's destroyed their capacity to be emotionally available to want connections.
	Look, I totally understand.
	Say for example for you, like if you went out of your way and you knew that every single man you were like selling content to was like a married man and like you actively knew those things, I would personally have problems with that because most married men have porn addictions.
	It's destroying their families.
	They have children.
	Most don't.
	Oh, most married men.
	That's not what I meant.
	If a married man, sorry, I said that right.
	If a married man is like subscribed to a bunch of OnlyFans model, he's not going to be a message.
	It's going to hurt his marriage.
	Yeah.
	And I think doing things with intent, like who you're selling stuff to, if you have the knowledge, like to know that like you're even flying out, you know, to do stuff or make content with someone who's in a relationship and keeping secrets, I think having like a mutual balance and agreement, I'm like understanding how like even though you don't intend to like harm a 16 year old boy with your content, it could pop up on his Instagram.
	It could be very harmful to young children and to relationships.
	And so when you're operating in these worlds, doing those things with as much intent as possible and like providing a safe service is like the most important thing, you know.
	Like even escorts, like a lot of the times like they are treated far better than the low and bottom bottom barrel versions of prostitutes.
	Like they are.
	They're still prostitutes.
	They are sex workers.
	They're escorts.
	But don't you think sex workers?
	Hold on.
	Let me okay.
	Let me read that.
	I would agree and disagree about it, but that's just my personal opinion.
	That's the dictionary definition of prostitute.
	Do you disagree with that definition?
	No, I don't.
	So an escort engages in sexual activity for payment?
	Yes or no?
	Yes, but I don't think that's a good idea.
	So they're prostitutes.
	I don't like that definition sex worker.
	I just think I use the terms differently.
	I see what you're saying, but for me, it's just, it's very important to use the terms.
	What is the actual, so I understand that there's, you know, some women can be, have pimps and some, there's varying degrees of.
	Well, escorts do have pimps when they're like businesses.
	Stop.
	Okay.
	Interrupting.
	God damn.
	Jeez, I'll just be quiet.
	No, you can discuss, but allow me to at least finish my thought before you want to blurt out more of your whatever.
	So I already lost my train of thought.
	You were saying prostitutes.
	There's different levels.
	There's a lot of distinction between prostitute and escort.
	This is why we don't want people interrupting.
	There can be pimps.
	There can be this.
	So yeah, there's varying levels of, I guess, willfulness when it comes to perhaps even both escorts and prostitutes.
	But if we're talking about a prostitute who doesn't have a pimp, like do you acknowledge a prostitute cannot have a pimp?
	Yeah.
	Into the mic, please.
	Yeah, sorry.
	I'm just getting really stressed.
	I'm just, I'm starting to have anxiety.
	I'm not trying to be like that.
	I'm just starting to feel stress.
	Okay, can a prostitute not have a pimp?
	Yes.
	Can a prostitute do prostitution consensually?
	No, and I meant no for the first one.
	Sorry, I'm getting stressed out.
	I don't seem ready to just prostitute all prostitutes have pimps?
	Yes, all prostitutes do have pimps.
	So wait, only so if you're so if there is no pimp, then you immediately fall into the category of escort?
	Escorts are more higher class prostitutes.
	They go out with higher class men.
	They wear different clothes.
	They get higher more.
	Some escorts get to go to like events and they get paid to pretend to be somebody and all sorts of things.
	Escorts aren't just like sex workers in hotels and stuff.
	But that's what I guess I don't understand.
	Maybe you can help me out.
	If like, let's say you're walking down the street, like some guy's just walking down the street and this chick who has no pimp at all is like, hey, baby, I'll give you a blowjob for 50 bucks.
	And he gives her the 50 bucks and gets the blowjob, right?
	And then she just keeps the money.
	There's no pimp.
	Under your definition, she wouldn't be a prostitute.
	You'd be a sex worker or a hooker?
	A hook?
	Yeah, hook.
	Because she's hooking.
	Yeah, hooking.
	Yeah, yeah, because you get to keep the bottom of the barrel, but you don't have a prostitute.
	You make that by toy.
	You're a pimp.
	You make that by choice.
	But that's not prostitution to you?
	It's sex work.
	And I think that we're getting the disconnect because I, like, your umbrella for it all is prostitution.
	My umbrella for the definition is sex work.
	Like we're only disagreeing with disagreement.
	Yeah, but I think that the semantic disagreement is just based around stigma, don't you?
	Like the idea is, again, you just want a reduction in stigma.
	And so you haven't, I would consider it to be an ahistoric standard.
	But that's what I think is going on.
	I think that the distinction definition is you want a reduction in stigma.
	And I think it's actually good to stigmatize this stuff.
	And so I'm not going to call it.
	And I see this language, kind of like this language thing happen oftentimes when I'm dealing with people who are either more progressive left.
	I'm not saying you are, but I do see it a lot where they'll kind of try to redefine things and the understandings of things to make them less impactful than what they actually are in order to destigmatize behaviors that really don't align with people's values very well.
	And then those become like cusswords.
	Like saying prostitute becomes a swear.
	It's like it's not, though.
	It's a descriptive, it's a descriptor for an activity that's actually happening.
	Now you can have whatever definition you want.
	That's fine, right?
	Like you can have a definition that doesn't agree with a dictionary definition and that's fine.
	And I even think your definition is consistent with what it is that you're talking about, right?
	So definitionally, it's fine.
	I just think that the idea that we that lowering stigma by just calling prostitution sex work when it's prostitution is just that.
	And that's where I think the disconnect actually is.
	I can agree.
	I think the reason I focus on that so heavily is again, I'm starting a nonprofit for this stuff.
	And the point is creating a safe space of like destigmatizing the suffering of what some people are going through.
	It's like if you put an OnlyFans model on somebody who's like literally like being slaved away in a motel for their life and like was kidnapped, like those are two different things.
	And when you're focused on trying to create safe spaces, I just think that's a bad example because I think even definitionally you would agree with me.
	That's slavery.
	Double them up.
	They're so good.
	It's so good doubled, I'm telling you.
	How much?
	It's six.
	I'm going to go one way.
	All right.
	What is that?
	So, really quick, really quick, four terms, if you can define them.
	Prostitute, whore, escort, hooker.
	Did you say prostitute, whore, escort hooker?
	Four terms.
	How do you define those four terms?
	Yeah, a prostitute would be somebody with a pimp who gives up their money.
	A hooker would be somebody with no pimp who has a little bit more choice, but they're more bottom of the barrel.
	Maybe they're on the streets.
	A whore, I'm not the biggest fan of that term, but that's just somebody who sleeps around by choice, I guess.
	You know what I mean?
	It's like, what's it's like?
	No money.
	I thought that was a slut.
	Yeah, I guess.
	I mean, totally.
	I've never really considered the horror term.
	Should that be even lower?
	Is that like the bottom?
	Yeah, I guess I've never really considered the whore term of sex work.
	It's just been slut or whore in like my generation.
	It's like the same.
	Can I ask you a question?
	Can a woman be convicted of the crime of prostitution without having a pimp?
	Oh, yeah.
	I totally.
	So then a woman can be a prostitute.
	But that's illegal legally.
	They don't have as many umbrella terms for it.
	So yes, when you're getting charged with a crime, that is what it's like.
	I won't linger on this definition stuff.
	So if OF girls don't get arrested for prostitution, doing only stuff like in their room, not meeting up with people, then does the law define it legally as prostitution still?
	That's a good question.
	I'm actually not sure that it does or doesn't.
	No, because it's legal.
	Right.
	It's legal.
	Yeah, this is legal.
	So, but I think if it was illegal, then the law would, right?
	It would define it under prostitution.
	Right.
	But then the law is defining it as not prostitution then.
	Well, no, it's just defining it as legal.
	It's not making the definition of prostitution or not prostitution one way or the other.
	It's just saying it's illegal activity.
	It's illegal, right?
	Well, it depends on the state, yeah, but generally speaking, it is, yes.
	But so in the states, I guess, where it is illegal, but OnlyFans is legal, which is all the states, it's a different, it's a the government is presupposing a different definition, right?
	Yeah, but they do that with porn too.
	Or yeah, literally pornography, too.
	So like, oh, now you're getting paid.
	You're so like, let's say that you had a guy who was like cruising to pick a chick up and sleep with her.
	Okay.
	And he and for money.
	He's looking for a prostitute.
	You would agree that that's a prostitute.
	If he like pulls up and he's like, hey, baby, hop in.
	I'll give you $100 and we'll have sex together.
	That's prostitution at the very least, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But why wouldn't it be prostitution if he pulls up and he's like, hey, baby, I'm going to give you $100 and we're going to have sex and I'm going to film it.
	And like now it's not.
	Like, you see how absurd that is?
	Yeah.
	So the thing is, is like that would still be prostitution, even though under the law, it might be legal.
	Do you see what I mean?
	I would say your intent part would play in.
	And I don't think it would be because the intent part, right?
	The intent was not, you know, in theory, because if they're just saying that to get a lot of money, the intent part is to have sex for money.
	Well, to make content, right?
	Well, to make profit off of it, but ultimately, the woman is selling sex in exchange for money.
	She's prostituting.
	You lose more by trying to put them all in a category versus like, you know, just saying what they are.
	Like even adding an E in front of it.
	Like, you know, if you wanted to say E prostitution, like that's way more like descriptive and granular.
	Like, I know exactly what you're trying to say, right?
	Where you say prostitution, I have to think, like, wait, okay, that's it.
	I actually, so I agree in a sense.
	And the last thing I'll say on it, Brian, I would just say that I would put this definition under the idea of it's all prostitution.
	And then within the confines of that, there's e-prostitution, there's escorting, there's stripping, there's this.
	And I do think that that captures the idea fairly well.
	Like, if I'm like, that chick's a prostitute, right?
	And you say, well, what?
	Does somebody pick her up and pay her to have sex with her?
	And you go, no, she takes her clothes off online and masturbates.
	I don't think that they're going to argue.
	Like, I think you're going to be like, oh, okay, yeah, she's a prostitute.
	That's what I think.
	Since it came up briefly, we won't linger on it long, but the topic did come up earlier, really quick on Charlie Kirk.
	We had you on the show.
	We had you on the show, Lola, shortly after that.
	Did you guys have any further thoughts on that topic?
	No further thoughts since then.
	I mean, overall, I don't agree with a lot of his rhetoric, but I respect, like, I mean, I respect anyone having the ability to share their political thoughts, and I condemn the fact that he was assassinated.
	Yeah, I mean, I think that her and I seem to be very on the same page.
	There seemed to be a bit of a misconception that I was like celebrating his death by any means.
	So, I wanted to clarify that last show as well.
	I did say that I won't be making like any claims on my personal beliefs there.
	You did, I think, try to compare him to Adolphus.
	I was mustache man.
	No, in the moment as well, I think I was very clear that it wasn't a comparison, but rather a clarifying question for the argument you were making.
	What was the clarifying question?
	Well, I was trying to understand that, because the conversation ended up, I found the better wording, which was I was trying to understand if you think that there's a threshold for evil someone can hit in order to deserve some treatment like that.
	Assassination.
	Sure.
	And my argument was never whether or not Charlie Kirk had hit that threshold or not.
	I just wanted to understand if you thought that that existed.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	So, the example that I used was the most extreme personification of evil I could find, not someone that I thought was similar to him.
	Right, but in the context of having a conversation about Charlie Kirk, it seems like you were attempting to bolster your position by saying, Well, but hold on, Brian, you perhaps would be in favor of assassination under X circumstance.
	In this case, you cited to Adolph Mustache Man.
	Sure, yeah.
	So, it seemed like you were doing a sort of, well, perhaps in our day and age, Charlie Kirk was, you know, espousing, at least from your perspective, certain rhetoric that you might deem to be radical or deeply offensive or even harmful.
	And thus, you can perhaps understand why someone might feel justified in the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I'm not sure.
	Do you feel like it was justified?
	Do I personally believe it was justified?
	Yeah.
	I'm not, maybe you wouldn't do it, but you feel like you can see why somebody would.
	See, that's a complicated, complicated question.
	I personally am very anti-violence in every regard.
	I don't think anyone should kill anyone.
	But like, it's like the same kind of question.
	If you were to ask me, like, someone with psychosis accidentally kill someone else in a psychotic episode, do I understand why they did it?
	Yeah.
	Do I think that they were justified?
	No.
	Like, that's why I don't think that that question really can be asked in the circumstance.
	Like, I guess to some extent, I can get in his head.
	Like, if this guy told me explicitly what he was thinking in the moment, yeah, I mean, if it's communicated, sure, I understand where his head was at.
	It doesn't matter if I think that he was like in the right or not.
	I just don't think people should be killing people.
	Okay.
	But you do you understand?
	Do you see the motivation for it?
	Because it's I you mentioned like somebody has a psychotic episode and they're just batch hit crazy, right?
	But when we're talking about political violence, I think we're talking about something different where the motivation is to either create like well suppress the individual in question.
	So, you know, if Charlie Kirk had massive levels of influence, so let's suppress that in a quite physically violent sort of way.
	But then also like these sort of cascading effects from there in terms of the chilling effect and the suppression of, oh, okay, if I'm a conservative, if I have like milquetoast, sort of mostly mainstream conservative opinion in the United States, this opens me up to killing, violence, assassination by liberals, leftists, Democrats, so forth.
	Yeah, well, I mean, again, I don't think anyone should be killing anyone.
	I don't think anyone should have killed Charlie Kirk.
	And I also don't necessarily, I think that, you know, the motivations could be things that we don't necessarily understand.
	Like, it doesn't have to be that they're trying to suppress them.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Go ahead.
	I was going to give different examples, but I think we're on the same page.
	Okay.
	And just then what about, I get that you think, hey, killing bad, violence, bad.
	What about the rejoicing, though?
	Of course, some people might say, okay, the violence is terrible, but some people do were rejoicing.
	They might not have ever themselves wanted to commit this crime, but they rejoiced in it.
	They were happy about it.
	Reveled.
	They reveled it.
	They reveled.
	Do you think that that's justified?
	I think that justified is a complicated word there.
	Do I think it's moral?
	No, but can I understand the fact that people, I mean, genuinely over all of his years on the internet, he, from my perspective, really, really was not, I think that he did promote harm for a number of people.
	I think that a number of people felt threatened by his beliefs.
	I think that a lot of his debates could fall under the category of harassment at a certain point.
	Harassment?
	Yeah, I've seen a lot of his debates in which he is telling people that they are making up their experiences because they don't align with his beliefs or that.
	How's that harassment, though?
	Well, I've seen him say that people are making up hate crimes and that that kind of thing doesn't actually happen to them.
	I just think that how's that harassment though?
	I think that it can, it is, I suppose it wasn't the right word.
	My point is it's hateful.
	I do believe that it's hateful.
	What specifically is hateful?
	Trying to put down people, belittle them, accuse them of lying, all in order to prove a point on your end.
	I don't think it's good faith.
	I don't think that it's a good faith debater.
	I don't think his intention really was to hear perspectives.
	I think a lot of his debates, he was making a conscious effort to back people into a position.
	Well, hang on.
	I got to get a little pushback here because some parts of a debate, the important parts, in fact, are to reduce a person's positions down and often to find out if they're lying.
	Like, because people lie during debates all the time.
	Yeah.
	And reducing their position will often expose that, right?
	So I'm not sure that having an assumption a person may be lying to you based on the details they're giving you that sounds suspect and you begin to probe those details and then you find inconsistencies and find out they're full of shit.
	I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
	I don't see how that's hateful.
	Well, I think there's a difference between probing for the sake of curiosity and then deeming something untrue without proper evidence.
	I have like what was an example of where Charlie Kirk did that?
	Because he was a very good faith debater.
	Kirk was a good faith.
	I think we can have different definitions of good faith.
	But, I mean, like, one specific thing that comes to mind was...
	No, well, let's start with this.
	What is good...
	What does good faith mean to you?
	I'll give you my definition real quick.
	Sure.
	Okay, so to me, good faith is that you're advocating the positions you actually believe in and you're arguing those positions.
	That's good faith.
	Sure.
	And you're willing to also change your mind based on new evidence for your positions, I also think that, or concede points.
	I think that that's also maybe a part of good faith.
	Yeah.
	I would agree with you on this definition, and I would probably add that if I would consider it bad faith if there's any intention to make someone look stupid at the expense of I don't see how that has anything to do with anything.
	I do think that's something that making somebody look stupid, right, if they're engaging in a debate with you is part of rhetoric.
	That goes all the way back to Socrates, Plato.
	Socrates was a blood sport debater, and so, you know, like so was his, his, he had minions, and they would go out in the streets and debate with people, including the aristocracy, and they made him look really fucking stupid.
	I think she means like personal attacks.
	Yeah, my point.
	I said a personal attack can actually be appropriate in a debate.
	Like an ad hominem kind of thing.
	Well, that's not an ad hom.
	An ad hom is not actually a personal attack.
	An ad hom is when you make a personal attack instead of addressing the argument.
	So like, let me give you an example.
	Let's say you're arguing with a woman and you're an aggressive debater.
	Okay.
	And you say.
	You would know.
	Sorry.
	Yeah.
	And you say, you say, no, that's not true because of X, Y, and Z, you stupid bitch, right?
	That's not an ad hom.
	That's an insult.
	I'd say it's a personal attack and not good faith.
	There's nothing.
	Well, there's nothing bad faith if you think they're a stupid bitch.
	If you call someone a stupid bitch, like you might think it's look, and this is the problem with people who don't really study debate, but I'll explain it to you, right?
	It is in fact the case that an ad hom is only when you're not addressing the argument and are deferring instead to a personal attack.
	So if I were to say, shut up, you stupid bitch, I don't care.
	That's a fucking ad hom, right?
	But if I said, no, you're wrong because actually what's going on is A, B, C, and D in this refute your argument, you stupid bitch.
	That's not an ad hom.
	That's actually just part of rhetoric.
	That's the distinction between a classic fallacious move, which is an ad hominem, and a non-fallacious move, which is personal insults are part of rhetoric.
	I mean, I still believe political discourse should be conducted with some level of maturity.
	I totally understand.
	And that's look, that's reasonable.
	It's reasonable for you to say, I want parameters around debate and things like that.
	I'm just letting you know that in the future, you could use that to your advantage.
	You could tell someone, hey, X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah, refute your argument, you dick.
	You haven't actually done that.
	I think you just don't.
	You just don't like the concept of respect that much, which is fine.
	Wait, wait, wait, hold on.
	What did I do that was disrespectful to you?
	You didn't say you did anything disrespectful to me.
	You're like, oh, disrespectful jokes are totally cool.
	Like, oh, disrespect during a political debate.
	Respect is earned.
	It's not something that's given.
	It's earned.
	And the thing is, I think that I have to earn it from people as much as they have to earn it from me.
	And I'm just trying to be completely open and honest with you in this conversation about what it is that I think and why it is that I think those things.
	So what about that is disrespectful or even advocating.
	If you had called me like a stupid bitch at some point in this conversation so far, then I would find that disrespectful.
	But he was making a distinction.
	Yeah.
	No, I wasn't calling you anything.
	No, I'm not saying you anything.
	Andrew wasn't making an advocation to call people a stupid bit.
	No, no, no.
	I was just giving an example.
	He was saying if he did, that it wouldn't be the example you gave where he said, well, here's my argument, X, Y, Z. You stupid, you know, be odd.
	Yeah, oftentimes people will.
	I just wouldn't, I wouldn't call that super good faith.
	That's all.
	No, but he's not making an advocation that he would do that.
	He would say stupid bitch.
	He's saying if he did, it wouldn't be an ad hom.
	Okay, okay.
	As long as you as long as you.
	It just distinguishes between the idea of rhetoric, which rhetoric is anything which is convincing.
	It's not logical argumentation.
	I just think someone who operates in good faith doesn't use that sort of language.
	Well, good faith, bad faith is not part of debate discourse at all, actually.
	That's a term that we like to use and throw around for people who are usually just saying shit we disagree with.
	Honestly, it doesn't mean much.
	That's why I just say in my terms, like I think a person I'm arguing with who's good faith is just actually advocating what they believe.
	For the most part, that's enough for me.
	That's an important part.
	Because most of the time, people will switch, like fucking chameleons, what they think based on who they're arguing and what it is that they're arguing about.
	And I think that that really is what's encapsulating bad faith more than anything.
	Like, I would rather have a person going, you're a fucking piece of shit and this and that, as long as I knew what they actually thought, you know, because then I can argue with you, but I can't argue with you if you're a fucking relie and a snake and you just constantly switch positions in the middle of a debate.
	And then I'm like, you know, I can't pin down anything that you believe.
	So I really think good faith is really that.
	I agree.
	Clay donated $299.
	Thank you, Clay.
	You have a table full of whores.
	That's not true.
	not true paid for their time how much does cuban bruce lee make the girl he pretends to care about Okay, you got to admit, Cuban Bruce Lee is fucking funny.
	That's pretty funny.
	It never crosses a line for me.
	Yeah.
	Isn't there only like one person who does OnlyFans here anyway?
	Fucking Cuban Bruce Lee is the funniest shit ever.
	That was good.
	Yeah, I do enjoy a good Cuban cigar.
	You see how mean men are to each other all the time?
	Like, I wouldn't even be upset with that guy if he said to my face.
	It's just funny.
	But Clayn, I mean, I don't know if there was consensus on the exact definition of whore, but I'm actually not sure if any of the women here meet the whore definition.
	So not legally, right?
	Something like that.
	Something like that.
	Well, moving off of that, going to Shona, some of your show notes that you provided.
	You wanted to hear that.
	You wanted to hear about Andrew's philosophy against feminism.
	Maybe that goes into like force doctrine stuff.
	Oh, yeah, I wanted to hear about that in particular.
	Oh, no.
	I'm just like, I'm infected with the woke virus.
	I need to be enlightened.
	You're not going to like it.
	I need to be enlightened, Andrew.
	Please help me out.
	Yeah, so, well, let's just start with.
	Can I tell you what I think feminism is?
	Can you tell me about force doctrine first?
	Or would you like to caveat?
	I think I need to caveat it with what I think feminism is.
	I think feminism is an egalitarian movement which is designed to dismantle patriarchy.
	That's what I think feminism is.
	Equal rights kind of thing.
	No.
	The egalitarian would match the equal rights, but you're missing the dismantling patriarchy aspect.
	I think that feminism has a stated goal of dismantling patriarchal systems because it uses a lens of an oppressor-oppressed class.
	And if you're an oppressed class who are you oppressed by, well, in the case of all women being oppressed, who else could they be oppressed by except men?
	And men are the patriarchy.
	I mean, when I talk about, when I like think about like feminism and look at today's world, I don't think men are oppressing women and that the system we live in, especially like legally, is patriarchal.
	I think there's people with patriarchal ideas.
	And what do we need feminism for?
	Well, I mean, when I think of feminism, I just think of like encouraging women to pursue what they want to pursue, whether that's in a professional space.
	So why do we need feminism then?
	Because there's a lot of women who maybe feel like they can't.
	They feel like they shouldn't do a certain thing.
	And who's the oppressor here?
	Who's oppressing them into believing?
	I'm not saying anyone's the oppressor.
	So then feminism to you is just an advocation that women should just do what they want.
	Yeah, that's it.
	Yeah, I mean, I think there's like feminists who say like, oh, we live in such a patriarchy and we're so oppressed.
	And then there's feminists who say like, who just support women just like pursuing their goals, reaching their fullest potential and being women should strive for all goals, right?
	Like, you can have bad goals that women shouldn't pursue.
	You would agree with that.
	I mean, I mean, when it comes to like me evaluating other people's goals, pursue whatever goal you want to pursue so long as you're not causing active harm to anyone.
	Okay, so you have an active harm principle.
	So the active harm principle is like, do as thou wilt as long as it harms nobody else.
	Yeah.
	That's impossible, though.
	Directly.
	Yeah, but this is the problem with a harm principle in general.
	Well, most people don't have goals that are harming people.
	Like most women aren't trying to pursue people.
	People don't generally set out to harm people, but I think that people can have goals that harm people, whether they set out to harm them.
	The goals I'm talking about are personal and professional goals mostly.
	Yeah.
	Like this is my life goal.
	This is what I want to do.
	This is my purpose.
	Would you then consider someone who is putting out content that might be racy?
	That if a 16-year-old boy came across it, it would be harmful to him.
	That could harm him, yeah.
	Yeah, could harm him.
	But I mean, also that like pivots into my whole like beliefs on the sex work debate.
	I want to stay focused on this.
	Well, okay, so I'll just, I guess I'll try to make it easy for you.
	So I think patriarchy itself is the stated goal of deconstruction from feminism.
	I do think that they want to deconstruct the patriarchy, and they're trying to move women into egalitarian positions with men.
	And that's why the patriarchy has to be deconstructed.
	I mean, when I think of feminism, I think of like a broad range of movements.
	You have like the first wave of feminism, modern feminism.
	It encompasses a lot of different degrees of beliefs, which is why I wanted to hear more about the whole force doctrine thing.
	Well, force doctrine is just advocating that men have a monopoly on force.
	And so since men have a monopoly on force, women are always going to have to appeal to a patriarchal system to enforce their rights.
	And so no matter what happens, you end up with circularity.
	Men have the monopoly on force.
	Women will always have to appeal to men for force.
	Therefore, it's true feminism and dismantling of patriarchy is never possible because they're always appealing to the patriarchy in order to enforce their rights.
	So, I mean, when I hear you say that, what I immediately think is like you're drawing a sort of legitimacy from the fact that men have greater strength, greater capacity for force and violence.
	They have the monopoly on force, right?
	They do have the legitimacy from your worldview, not mine.
	But it's your worldview that gives them the legitimacy.
	I mean, I'm not the one advocating for force doctrine.
	Do you believe in God?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I'm not Christian.
	You're not a Christian.
	So what kind of God do you believe in?
	I'm Hindu.
	You're Hindu?
	Like practicing Hindu?
	Yes.
	Why is that so funny?
	Well, okay, that's fine.
	I'm just curious, like, why you pursue that?
	So, well, because Hinduism and harm reductionism isn't exactly synonymous, which means that you have a distinction principle here.
	I don't like draw my political views based on my religion completely.
	Really?
	Don't you draw your political views from your morals?
	I mean, yeah.
	And where do you get your morals except from your religion?
	I mean, I don't get all my morals from religion.
	Where do you get them from?
	I think there's some sort of notion of objective, like universally understood morals that go beyond religion.
	I also believe in like separation of like.
	Well, that's just subjective morality.
	You're just talking about preference.
	So you get your morals from things you prefer.
	Like things I prefer more moral than things I prefer.
	That's like how I think people should be treated.
	Anyways.
	Well, that's important.
	And the reason that that's important, that we're figuring out where you draw your morality from.
	I would also say I'm not like super devout to where religions like heavily have.
	I understand.
	So then we got preference.
	But if it just comes down to preference, then every man's preference is equal to your preference, everybody's preferences.
	Why is it not legitimate for men to collectivize and utilize force for the purposes of upping their station in society?
	And that's what I was going to touch on.
	Because when you say, like, okay, men have a monopoly on force, women need to appeal to men to gain their rights.
	It's circular.
	You're like drawing legitimacy for men from their monopoly on force.
	And when I see you, like, kind of equate strength and legitimacy, it's like it's kind of a dangerous, slippery slope.
	Because then I think about it, I think about it this way.
	What other legitimacy is there?
	Listen, listen.
	I think about it this way.
	When you draw legitimacy from strength, it's like, okay, pedophiles could collectively overpower little children.
	That's right.
	And then it seems to like almost force doctrine to me would seem to justify that.
	Then you're suddenly justifying every tyrannical invading force throughout history, including Russia invading Ukraine, World War II Nazism.
	It's a very well, or you're justifying the opposite.
	You're justifying the overthrowing of the Nazism and justifying the overthrowing of pedophilic cults or justifying the overthrowing of said evil deed.
	Force doctrine would do both.
	But that doesn't really negate the fact that what you're doing is you're just always appealing to men again for your rights.
	So when you talk about how men have a monopoly on force, you're talking about like, okay, men are like physically, biologically stronger.
	Well, because that's like what you mean.
	Look, I'll defer to the IFBB pro.
	Okay.
	I'm guessing that physically she's one of the like most females are not stronger than the average male that you may be, but in comparison to IFBB pro males, she's not.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You're making most of them are stronger on average, right?
	But what I'm saying is that just on average, and it's not minuscule.
	Like, no offense, right?
	But I'm guessing that there's hormone replacement and all sorts of things that goes on that assist with you being able to really get jacked the way that you are, right?
	Okay, for sure.
	So the thing is, is like men are also doing that in the IFBB and they get much stronger.
	And it's not a slight distinction in strength.
	You're talking about, hang on, you're talking about 50 to 75% strength differential.
	That is fucking huge.
	That's like fighting with a gorilla.
	That's like fighting with a gorilla from a man's perspective.
	I agree.
	Men are collectively a lot like biologically physically strong.
	Much, much physically stronger than the average woman.
	What I was going to say is like when you talk about force and you think about today, okay, let's say you have a 5'2 woman who has access to military-grade weaponry in a missile program.
	And then you have a 180-pound six-foot, whatever man, super strong, who just has like a handgun.
	Force today, it can be like remote and can be mechanical and is not purely biological.
	She could physically, using force, overpower him.
	And who's in charge?
	Who's in charge of all of this industry and builds all of these weapons and uses all these way on and uses all these weapons and designs all these weapons?
	I mean, women are equally capable of being weapons engineers.
	I think it's more of an intellectual accomplishment.
	How come they're not then?
	Because, I mean, throughout history, women have not been, had not been encouraged to enter those kinds of spaces.
	But like, if you put a woman into that field today and a man into that field, I think they could both be perfectly successful at it.
	Let me just ask you a question.
	Have you ever fired a gun?
	No.
	No.
	Never, right?
	I've never fired a gun.
	No.
	No.
	Are you aware that they actually require a decent amount of physical strength to handle properly?
	Sure.
	I've heard about that.
	I mean, okay.
	And the bigger the gun, the more physical strength is required.
	And the other problem is, is that you have to carry lots of ammo.
	And that requires a lot of physical strength.
	And you have to carry a bunch of gear to feed yourself.
	And then you have to carry bulletproof vests that you're wearing so that when you get shot, right, you don't have to do it.
	But I think if you gain it.
	Hang on, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
	And the problem is, we know this from hundreds of years of military collected data, not just here, but in every nation on planet Earth, that women consistently have to have the standards lowered for them on average so that they can, in any way, shape, or form, keep up with men in those roles.
	What that tells us collectively is this, they're not as good in them.
	Men have a huge advantage in all aspects, including weapons, including drone pilots, even drone piloting.
	They have advantages in just being able to build things quicker.
	Almost everything about them is designed as the super predator of the earth.
	Not predatory in the way that they victimize, but predatory in the way that they can quickly kill almost anything they want to with very little resistance from anything that exists.
	Because of that, I'm sorry, but you're never going to be able to equalize force between a sex that's 50% on average weaker than them, no matter what technological advances you think you're going to make.
	But it is the case that in that scenario, a woman could physically using that kind of force overpower the man.
	It is hypothetically.
	You're talking about the highest grade of the world.
	It could be hypothetically, like I'm willing to grant that you could have a logical possibility where women have like a fucking, I don't know, dystopian technological future where they invent all of the technology and enforce all of their right through machinery.
	Okay, I'm willing to grant that.
	But the thing is, is like that's not going to happen.
	And it's not the case now.
	And it's not going to be the case in our lifetime or the lifetime of your mom or your mom's mom or even your mom's mom.
	So right now, at least, the case is that you have to appeal to men for force.
	And so feminism as a dismantling of patriarchy is not possible because you're appealing to the very thing you're trying to dismantle always to dismantle it.
	But it's also interesting because when I think about political movements throughout history in this country that have been super effective, they've done so through social organization, protests, political pressure, cultural influence, things that have nothing to do with force.
	Because those are appealing to the government, the people in power.
	Those can be affected by the people who are not.
	And what does the government use?
	The government has access to force, but these movements have still been successful.
	Because men have allowed them to be.
	But in places where men don't allow them to be, they're not.
	Can I give you the entirety of the Middle East and Asia?
	What happens to your little political movements there?
	Well, I'm talking about what's happening in the world.
	What happens to your little political movements in Afghanistan?
	Do your little political movements with the holding of the little sign saying, I don't want to wear this really hot fucking burqa in the 100-degree sun, and they come out and cut their fucking head off.
	How do they do over there?
	They don't do so good.
	How come?
	It's because men allow you to keep those signs up.
	Men allow you to protest.
	Men are the ones who give the allowance for you to do fucking anything on planet Earth.
	And my proof is half of planet Earth where men said, no, fuck that.
	And you know what women can do about it?
	Nothing.
	They can't do anything about it.
	But in the democratic country we live in, those are valuable.
	I'll rely on men allowing you to have a democracy.
	I think you're thinking that women were able to get rights to vote just because of their protests.
	But no, it's actually because they needed votes since so many men were at war or dying in war.
	Like women weren't allowed to vote until the moment.
	I'm also just curious at that point.
	Hold on, let her finish.
	Yeah, women just weren't allowed to be educated or vote until the men decided we need women to enter the economy.
	We need women to enter the voting pool so we can win more because men are dying in these wars.
	See, there's a lot of truth to that with what industrialization did and industrialists did with wanting to get women to have cheaper labor enter into the workforce.
	But ultimately, the interesting part here is that all of this just proves force doctrine.
	The truth is, is that if men collectivize for rights, they can get them because we can kill other men.
	We have a monopoly on force.
	We can kill men.
	We can take our rights.
	Let me give you the Revolutionary War as an example of this.
	We don't like our conditions.
	We fucking kill you and make new conditions.
	That's what men are capable of doing.
	In the historic record, when I looked, I never found, not one time, a single instance of women being able to collectivize and use force to take anything from men ever.
	I've never once found it.
	And I looked hard.
	I wanted to see if there was even one example.
	There's not one.
	Can you think of a single time ever in history, the history that you know about, where women have collectivized and used force to take anything from men?
	Not force.
	And so if that's the case and men have a monopoly on force, you're always going to have to appeal to them to not use it on you.
	Because here's the dirty truth, and it's brutal.
	And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to lie to you.
	Because I have the standard of half the world to look at, I know that if men collectivize in the West and decide to put women in little cages, there's not a shit they can do about it.
	So they really have to appeal to the benevolence of men, and all they do is demonize them.
	And that's fucking crazy to me.
	So, I mean, again, like when I mentioned earlier how that kind of justifies like any tyrannical invading force, do you think the justification, it's a description.
	The less powerful party in that situation should just appease to the oppressor or the invading force.
	The thing is, is that you're going to, well, here's the thing.
	Let me ask you this.
	If you have somebody who's larger than you are, right, and can beat you up, do you talk shit to them?
	No, not as.
	Why not?
	So they don't beat me up.
	don't beat you up right there should still be some kind of hang on hang on is Is that a form of appeasement?
	Well, I just distanced myself from this person.
	So it's not a form of appeasement?
	Hang on, hang on.
	Answer the question I asked first.
	Is it a form of appeasement when someone's much larger than you, so you don't talk shit to them because you don't want to get beat up?
	Is that appeasing?
	I mean, you're not really doing anything in the world.
	Right, it's not appeasement then.
	Sure.
	So when we're talking about this, that's not appeasement.
	If you bring in a third party in that situation, I think they have a responsibility to call out the person who's the same.
	Well, I think that the case is, is that if you aggravate, if you aggravate the sex who is responsible for your fucking rights and then they take them away, well, that's just like going up to the six foot four guy as me, right, who's 280 pounds and going, fuck you, I'm going to do what I want.
	And then when he smashes my face, does it matter if I give him my moral objection?
	If I'm like, that's really immoral that you just did that, he's going to be like, that's nice.
	They don't give a shit about my moral objection.
	They're going to beat my fucking head in.
	And the thing is, is like, okay, since that's an objective reality, the objective reality here for women is exactly the same.
	If you decide to continue the agitation of men, if women collectively do that, men are capable of taking everything from women, and the reverse isn't true.
	Okay, when I think about what you're saying in the context of the world we live in today, a society that's advanced a lot more than that intellectually is not just this caveman primitive.
	I beat you up, you listen to me, you appease to me kind of way.
	Because it's very like, it's very Stone Age, actually.
	It's very interesting.
	It's funny to me that this weird appeal to natural.
	The problem that you have is you have what's called a normalcy bias.
	See, you were raised in this world, and in this world, the one that you currently live in, it is the case that we're all very civil to each other.
	We're all very nice, and we're governed by laws, and we're governed by this, and we're governed by that.
	And if there's a zombie apocalypse tomorrow, the misogynist who's down the road, who's the fucking gun holder with the bunker, you're going to be bashing on his fucking door, say, please let me in.
	This is fucking crazy.
	What do I do?
	And I don't blame you for that because I'm going to do the same shit.
	I'm going to run over and be like, what the fuck do I do, man?
	There's zombies everywhere.
	This is fucking crazy.
	When the curtain goes down, society right now, the benefits that women have are incredible, and you have no idea how beneficial it is to you, that how good men really are to keep a society like this going.
	They're extraordinarily benevolent in what they do.
	It's insane.
	And to think that, like, we can look at half the world where they are technologically advanced in China.
	Okay?
	Yes, they are.
	I mean, they're almost surpassing us as a superpower.
	They're super advanced in Japan.
	They're super advanced in the Middle East and many of the nations.
	And they go like that, and women have no rights.
	And so it's like...
	Wait, at that point, why do you even gender force doctrine?
	shouldn't you suddenly exclude every like disabled elderly or frail man and include every super strong buff woman well we're talking just make it based on strength at that point yeah Yeah, do you understand, though, what collective force would mean between the sexes?
	So collective force between sexes actually means something.
	Like a 50-year-old man is still very fucking dangerous to a 20-year-old woman who's strong.
	To a 20-year-old woman who's strong, a 60-year-old man is still a significant threat to them.
	I mean, it could be the case that if they weren't aware of the fact that he was really strong and he was really frail on a wheelchair.
	Women get overpowered by their 11-year-old sons.
	That's how bad it is.
	It's not a joke.
	A woman could overpower a really old, frail man.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, some.
	But the thing is, it's like based around, you're talking about based around collective action.
	And when you're talking about collective action, it doesn't matter how many outliers you point to.
	Oh, there's a guy over there who's in a wheelchair.
	Oh, there's a dude over there who can't lift anything.
	Oh, there's a dude over there who can't use a gun.
	I agree.
	Those examples are there.
	But collective action is usually done uniformly between a collective.
	But then in that case, don't you think there's a sort of like injustice within this force doctrine idea?
	What's the injustice?
	It's a description.
	It's not a prescription.
	Suddenly, every strong woman doesn't get to include it.
	It's woman, not women, not strong women.
	Oh my gosh.
	Wait, really quick, just on what Andrew said, I just want to make sure that you understand that.
	And it's a descriptor, not a description.
	Andrew's not saying, yes, we should.
	He's not saying, yes, we should do this.
	We should subjugate women.
	That's not his argument.
	He's just saying this is, not what should be, not what ought to be.
	Yeah, this is.
	How come those Middle Eastern men in wheelchairs have rights and the strong women in the Middle East don't?
	Monopoly on force.
	But what I would say is.
	So hang on, collective.
	The collective still is what matters.
	And that's an injustice.
	Well, justice.
	Right.
	How do you ground justice?
	If you don't ground it in God, isn't it just preference?
	Like morality?
	Yeah, what do legitimacy?
	Tell me what justice.
	Now, listen, this is, I'm not trying to make this a trick question, and I'm going to just caveat this with this.
	Explaining what justice is, it's like the hardest concept in the world.
	So I'm not going to hold you to this, right?
	Instead, I'm just going to say, okay, you can try to ground justice.
	We're talking about justice, like, I mean, like when I'm talking about justice in the context of like rights, I think, I mean, in that case.
	You don't have rights.
	There are no rights.
	They're made up.
	Do you not believe in the concept of rights?
	No, they're made up.
	Where do they come from?
	Point to one.
	The government?
	They're like, okay, I would define rights.
	The government gives you rights?
	In this country, yeah.
	Well, no, no, no, just period.
	Can I define rights?
	Yeah.
	Protections given to individuals in society.
	Oh, given?
	They're given to you?
	They're legally enforced.
	And what makes it a right if it's given to you?
	It can be taken away.
	Yeah, it can.
	That sounds like you have a right then.
	Sounds like you have force.
	Sounds like somebody uses force in order to collectivize to make sure that you can do or not do something.
	That's not really a right.
	That's not like the justice in rights, when you say, I have the right to speak, you have the right to speak.
	Regret speech.
	Yeah, that's a right.
	Yeah, it's a right.
	As long as somebody says you have it.
	How do you feel about the Constitution?
	As long as someone says you have it, that's it.
	That's the only way you have rights.
	You don't have rights.
	Rights don't exist.
	They're concepts.
	They're made up.
	Just because something's awarded or given to someone, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
	Where does it exist?
	Where does a right exist?
	Can you point to one?
	Can you touch it?
	Can you taste it?
	Can you smell it?
	So if you can't physically or tangibly interact with something, it doesn't exist.
	Where does it exist?
	Where does, okay, well, like, love is a real thing.
	You can't touch or taste it.
	Isn't love just a combination of chemicals in your body that give you a reaction?
	I mean, do you only believe in tangible concepts?
	That's interesting.
	Well, no, I'm looking at your worldview.
	Okay, I'll look at your worldview.
	I'm grounded in something more like real.
	Okay, what?
	What is it grounded in?
	If someone tried to kill you, then they would be arrested because it's just grounded in the law, so everything in the Middle East is fine because it's lawful.
	I didn't say it was fine.
	Okay, well, then what is it grounded in?
	I'm just talking about the practical application of rights.
	If someone violates your rights.
	Yeah, but what is it grounded in?
	What do you ground rights in other than you like them?
	The law?
	So then if you take rights away via the law, that would be justified, right?
	No, you shouldn't take rights away.
	How do you ground rights in the law?
	But then if I say, well, I'm going to use the law to take your rights away, the very grounding you're using, that's bad, but the other way it's good.
	What?
	I think we're getting confused here.
	No, I'm not.
	But I mean, like, I think the confusion is going from, like, you're saying that I have rights because the Constitution says so.
	It feels like a moral thing to have.
	Well, who decided that was a moral thing to have?
	Men in charge.
	And why did they do that?
	Because it was beneficial to them and their families and their comrades.
	What is a country?
	It's just a big tribe.
	I would say rights are awarded by virtue of being nationalistic.
	By who?
	What do you mean?
	Well, there's all sorts of people.
	By collective society.
	And so if collective society decides to take those away, why are they actually being immoral?
	Well, collective society would never decide to take them away.
	Except in half the fucking planet, which I can point to right now.
	It's because in those countries, the men have decided this doesn't benefit us anymore.
	Yeah, so tell me.
	So tell me, if half, if here we democratically, if I democratically voted or convinced enough people to democratically vote to get rid of democracy, what did I do wrong?
	Democratically voted to get rid of democracy?
	What did I do wrong?
	Oh, you can vote for whatever you want.
	Right.
	But if I democratically vote to remove democracy and rights from everybody, tell me why that's actually wrong other than, hang on, other than your preference.
	There could never be a situation in which you can vote in a democracy to remove democracy, could there?
	Yes, you could do it right now.
	Oh, by voting for Trump?
	Yeah.
	Don't you think he's a tyrant trying to take away your rights?
	Well, I mean, yeah, so yeah, you can use democracy.
	Wait, don't you like not even believe in like full-on democracy?
	Don't like some sort of different people.
	Don't pivot.
	I'm just curious.
	That's bad faith.
	So the thing is, let's move back to good faith.
	What do you ground rights in other than your preference?
	Just things you prefer.
	What would it actually be grounded in?
	You can't ground it in the law.
	When you say grounded in, what do you mean by that?
	Well, so if you say, I'm going to ground my belief in the law, that means that's what the justification is, is the law.
	But if you make the justification that the law is what's correct, then if I change the law, then it's still correct.
	Are you asking me how should we decide what right?
	No, I'm asking how you ground it.
	The thing in which you create the justification for it existing in the first place.
	What is the justification for a right other than you prefer that thing?
	That people in society should be treated a certain way.
	And that's not a personal preference.
	That's a collective preference in this country for me.
	So it's preference.
	Sure.
	Okay, so then it's preference.
	So your personal preference right now aligns with most people's preference.
	Hang on.
	But there's something.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I'll let you do an internal critique back, I promise.
	If it's the case that your preferences align with other people's preferences and that creates your justification, then if my preferences align with other people's preferences, we're equally justified, right?
	And that's just having different interests within a democracy.
	Sure.
	Well, then if that's the case, then if men collectivize and their preferences outweigh women's and they take all your fucking rights away, tell me what they're actually doing wrong.
	Well, that's democratic.
	Why is that wrong other than your preference, though?
	It's not, right?
	I mean, it's not constitutional.
	And the Constitution is a collective of preference.
	Yeah, that we, like, yeah.
	Yeah.
	So then if that's the case, if everything just boils down to what you prefer, then the second men decide to prefer, hang on, the second men decide to and prefer to stuff your asses in cages, then they're equally justified.
	You keep talking.
	Hang on, hang on.
	How would they not be equally justified if they're just using the same standard you are, preference?
	Because when you keep, you keep attaching personal preference to what I'm saying and thinking, but don't you believe there's some kind of like, I mean, based on like reason, like rationality, like I don't want to use the word objective, but universally we have like, I mean, you could look across religions, across cultures, across cultures.
	There's like universal understandings of maybe people should be treated this way.
	This thing is the right thing.
	This thing is the wrong thing.
	Even like in a secular context.
	Can I tell you about a little island off the coast?
	I'm talking about patterns.
	Called Papua New Guinea.
	Let me explain about this little island.
	Are we working in exceptions?
	Well, okay, I'm just saying, like, listen, before, I'm not going to bring that up, even though it's hilarious to do.
	I'm just going to point this out.
	Your argument is circular.
	You're saying me and the collective prefer this thing, and that's what makes it justified.
	And I say, okay, that's pretty.
	That's not even about preference.
	It's like universal understandings that benefit people.
	Are universal standards unchanging?
	Mostly, I'd say.
	They're unchanging?
	They can change, but like a lot of people.
	Okay, then they're not unchanging.
	Unchanging means can't change.
	I'd say there are plenty that don't change.
	Okay, can't.
	I'm not asking about do or don't.
	I'm asking about can or can't.
	Are universal preferences unchanging?
	That means cannot change.
	I would say the most universal preferences can't change.
	They can't?
	They often don't.
	What?
	Okay, like for, let me give you an example.
	If you have a law that says don't kill people, like throughout history, that law has been enforced.
	Except in Somalia.
	Is there a law in Somalia that says you can't kill people?
	Yeah, there's anarchy.
	There's no government.
	So most countries let's say people.
	Wait, you said can't.
	Can't.
	Can't's a definitive.
	It means cannot.
	Okay, I'm talking about a pattern here, a trend here.
	Yeah, I'm talking about a trend here, too.
	So Somalia is the trend.
	So the trend.
	It's one country.
	No, the trend is just preference.
	If you can point to majority of countries and majority of the countries.
	The majority of countries, women have no fucking rights.
	Do they?
	In most countries?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Was there anything else you wanted to add to that?
	So the universal preference must be that you don't have any fucking rights.
	In those countries, are they democratic?
	No.
	What do they need to do?
	Do you think if they suddenly were democratic, then that could change?
	That in those countries, suddenly women could gain access to rights?
	No, no, no, Iraq is democratic now.
	And I know about the whole woman's rights thing there.
	In Afghanistan, if you gave women, if you gave, like, if you implemented democracy.
	Who?
	Well, I mean, who?
	If men suddenly gave women the rights.
	Oh, if men suddenly gave women rights, that's crazy.
	When they're only really incentivized, that's crazy.
	If men gave women rights, the women could do stuff.
	I'm fucking razzle-dazzled by this argument.
	No one ever said men were physically weaker or had less of monopoly.
	Well, I'm just saying, you're just saying to me that if men happen to give women the right to be afraid of the people.
	Agreeing with you this whole time that men are stronger and men can physically overcome the rights.
	That's not what we're talking about.
	We're talking about if men gave women the right to vote right now.
	Well, so that's a pivot from what I'm saying.
	It's not.
	You said if men in Afghanistan suddenly gave women the right to vote, things would sure change.
	Yeah, no shit.
	No shit.
	I'm talking about universal understandings, and you're drawing this back to force doctrine.
	Okay, I was saying.
	You, I thought we were talking about force doctrine.
	Oh, what is it?
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	I love a good argument.
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	Sorry that your friend passed, man.
	Anyway, yeah, back to this.
	It sounds like everything you say just reinforces force.
	When I was talking about universal understanding, excuse me, you're saying, like, oh, in a lot of countries, there's like, they're like, women don't have rights.
	Continue, continue.
	I was saying that if you suddenly gave everyone the right to vote in a lot of these countries where women don't have rights, then maybe women would not be as oppressed.
	Wait, say that again?
	I want to make sure I got that right.
	We were talking about universal understandings and like morals, right?
	And then you mentioned like, oh, well, in a lot of countries, like majority of countries, women don't have rights.
	And I said, well, that has a lot to do with the fact that those countries are undemocratic and controlled by men.
	If they suddenly were democratic, that would change.
	Based on the fact that most people would look out more for women, which is universal understanding.
	Who would have to make them democratic?
	What I'm trying to prove right now at this point is that there are a concept of universal understandings and morals.
	There's not.
	Otherwise, why don't we all have the same ones?
	Do you notice how, like, across religions, there's often like certain values that are preached?
	That there's like similarities there.
	Sure.
	Across cultures, there's similarities in what people will believe.
	And like in different countries, there's like commonalities of certain laws that will be passed.
	That's what I'm calling universal understandings and morality.
	Okay, that's great.
	But these aren't.
	Do you agree with me?
	These aren't shared concepts, though.
	But they're shared.
	I just gave an example of how they can be shared across so many people.
	And you said, yeah, yeah, cool.
	I agree with you, but I actually disagree with you.
	Yeah, no, I'm just disagreeing with you.
	But you just said, mm-hmm.
	Yeah, I agree with you that it is true that you could make the argument that there's some shared concepts of morality across people groups.
	That's what I'm saying.
	Okay, cool.
	But really quickly.
	But it doesn't matter because all people groups don't share morals.
	And I'm saying based on those commonalities, that's what rights often are.
	Commonalities can change based on the preferences of people groups.
	What is universally accepted good behavior now was not 300 years ago.
	Example: if that guy pissed me off 300 years ago, I could challenge him to a duel.
	They're relatively unchanging.
	If that guy pissed me off 300 years ago, I could challenge him to a duel, go outside, he would take his top hat off, we'd both pull out guns, try to blow each other's fucking brains out.
	Now, is that a universal moral right now?
	No, it's fucking not.
	So the thing is, is like, look, universal preferences change constantly.
	Or I could challenge him to a duel.
	Yeah, constantly.
	What did you say?
	300 years ago?
	Constantly.
	Women voting is brand new.
	That never happened before.
	That's not even a thing that ever really happened.
	Well, what I'm saying.
	No, no, no.
	What you're saying is absurd.
	Not really.
	Universal constants for morals change constantly.
	They're not unchanging.
	Not only are they not unchanging, we can 100% expect the intuitions of people in the next hundred years are going to drastically change.
	And I don't think that invalidates.
	Hold that thought for just a moment.
	Hold the thought.
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	Ooh.
	So I guess.
	Maybe we can finish this.
	Yeah, no, I was just saying at a given point in time, forget like 300 years ago, because I think just because I'll just go ahead and grant everything that you're saying.
	Does any of that in any way refute force doctrine?
	I think it draws, it draws like, this is a little more prescriptive, and I'm aware of that, but it draws like where I would, how I would give rights into something that's ultimately affected by the rights.
	And who would you have give those rights and enforce them?
	Humans in general.
	Oh, you'd have humans in general do it?
	What do you mean?
	Like, what if men didn't like the rights that you were prescribing?
	I'm talking about, okay, in like a democratic country.
	In a democratic country, what happens if men don't like the rights?
	You think if, well, I mean, I think we live in a system in this country set up today that would, that's able to.
	And can the system fail?
	And can men collectively use action in order to take the system back with that pesky thing called the second event.
	That's a pretty drawn-out hypothetical, I think.
	Is it?
	Because this whole nation was founded in doing just that.
	So you think today that it's possible that men could just collectivize and just overcome it?
	I 100% they could and can and always have been able to.
	The government's designed in such a way that we allow for that.
	So the United States is going to last forever?
	I think it's going to last a pretty long time.
	I don't think.
	Forever?
	That's an interesting question.
	No, of course not.
	Men can't, listen, force doctrine saying this.
	Men can collectivize whenever they want to take the rights away from women.
	And I'm sorry that there's a lot of women who just rationally don't understand that that's the case.
	Hang on.
	Let me just finish what it is.
	And then you can attack it.
	But let me at least get it out.
	Okay.
	Women can't appeal to that same thing.
	They cannot collectively take rights away from men.
	They can't.
	And they've never done it once.
	Anywhere in human history have I ever found women collectivizing and using force to take rights from men.
	Since that's the case, they're always appealing to men for those rights.
	I don't know a way around that.
	And every example you give seemingly to me just confirms that that's the case.
	Wait, what about democracy?
	We have a democracy.
	You have a democracy because men enforce the democracy.
	And the second men don't enforce the democracy, into the fucking cages you go.
	So my whole qualm with that idea is purely that it just, like, okay, it draws legitimacy from strength, and it doesn't really take into account regard for personality.
	Here's the word concept.
	It's a word concept fallacy, right?
	So hang on.
	Can I just say one thing?
	Yes.
	If your whole argument or idea with force doctrine is purely men can physically overpower women at any point, yeah, they can.
	Nope, that's not the argument.
	The argument is that they can collectively enforce their will and women can't with force.
	That's what it means.
	That's kind of synonymical with what I said.
	It's not because you missed this part.
	Women will always have to appeal to men and men will never have to appeal to women for their rights.
	Men can change the conditionals of their own rights with force and women have to appeal to men, change rights for them.
	So therefore, women will always have to appeal to men for their rights.
	And if men collectively say you ain't got none, you don't.
	And if women collectively say men don't, we do.
	But you want to know why that kind of thing doesn't happen today is because people get it.
	It happens all over the world.
	What are you talking about?
	Like most of the world, this is what happens.
	Okay, for example, in this country, the reason that doesn't happen today is because in a lot of like more like countries such as this one, there's some sort of regard for humanity and morality and a more advanced thing.
	And also you appealing to men being benevolent and moral.
	Did you know that?
	You see, where you're making the same argument that I make.
	Men must really be benevolent because what you're appealing to right now is that there's such a sense of morality in society that men will never grab all the fucking women off the street and put them in cattle carts and send them to breeding camps, even though they could.
	That sure seems awful fucking nice of men.
	That sure seems really fucking benevolent of men.
	I don't think that that's benevolent.
	I think that's like the lowest bar of human decency that they're not keeping slaves.
	You know what's really funny about that argument?
	A woman said this to me once, and I thought about it for a second, and I realized something really important, right?
	That when you have power over the most vulnerable in society, in this case, children, you fucking abort them.
	And so the thing is, like, I do think that we're pretty benevolent.
	I think that like a million and a half aborted babies a year is pretty fucking malevolent.
	And I think that when you have the power over life and death, you fucking kill.
	And when we have the power and we do collectively over life and death, we liberate.
	And I do think that that's benevolent.
	And I think that that's part of men's nature.
	And I do think that you have to appeal to us for all of your rights.
	And that what you guys always think is just like fucking fantasy.
	And I don't understand it.
	Do you think humans should have the obligation to like, I don't know, have like human decency, though?
	Do I, from a Christian worldview?
	Yes.
	Yes, I appeal to Christ Jesus.
	And I do think that there are, that God gives commands in which we're supposed to engage with the world.
	And I think men follow those commands.
	And that's one of the reasons men are so benevolent.
	Do you notice?
	Do you would you agree that there's a lot of different people with a lot of different worldviews who would also believe in the idea of human decency?
	Yeah, well, I guess all you'd need to really show me is all this human decency in the rest of the world because outside of Christian nations, I don't really see that.
	I mean, I hope we agree on outside of Christian nations.
	I don't see any of this supposed benevolence and this supposed universalization.
	I see the opposite.
	Outside of Christian nations, what I see is subjugation and torture and madness and insanity and fucking, that's what I see.
	I don't know what you see outside of Christ, but that's what I see.
	So I think we could both agree that human decency should be taken into account.
	Well, I think that what makes humans decent is Christianity, and I think that...
	I mean, I'm not Christian, and I...
	I know.
	I know, and that's why the justification that you give for all of your rights is preference, which gives me the equal right based on my preference to take your rights away.
	That's what's insane.
	Go ahead.
	I'm sorry.
	Can I ask, if 51% of the world right now said we should keep all women as slaves, right?
	Does that, that doesn't make it moral in your mind, right?
	No.
	Because you don't think it's preference.
	Do you base it?
	No, I don't think it's moral because in Christian ethics, the enslavement of another human being is abhorrent.
	Yes.
	In Christian ethics, the subjugation of women is abhorrent.
	That doesn't mean that there's not a hierarchical and patriarchal structure and that in a marriage, a woman is supposed to submit to the head.
	I do believe that fully.
	But that doesn't mean that I believe for a second that men have any conceptualization or Christian ethics that they can abuse or harm or do horrible things to women.
	That's fucking way beyond the pale of Christian ethics.
	Okay.
	The criticism of force doctrine is showing you guys your view.
	That just under pure preference, if it's the case that morals are just all preference, that if men decide and they prefer one day that you're just fucking chattel there to breed our kids and there's nothing you can do about it and they all prefer that collectively, you may not like that, but you don't really have a justification to do anything about it because your entire justification for why they shouldn't is just that you fucking prefer that they don't.
	Human decency.
	Well, that's just universal preference.
	I never made the claim that morals are preference.
	I was not a preference.
	And where do you then justify your morality?
	In my opinion, it's about the best for a society.
	And I don't think there's any objectivism to that.
	I don't think that we can objectively say this is what will lead to the best outcome for preference.
	No, it's not.
	It's based on education.
	It's based on knowledge.
	It is in part, I guess.
	And it's your preference that we should value those things.
	Yeah, I guess the smallest percentage of you literally agreed with me earlier that universal understanding.
	Everything that you are saying right now that we should value, your only justification for why we should value it is because you prefer it.
	Okay, so if in a hypothetical world, if the Bible said that murder was okay, would you personally believe that murder is okay?
	No.
	Okay.
	Well, but here's why.
	Sure.
	No, no, keep going.
	Yeah, here's why.
	So I have a different form of epistemology, right?
	Well, okay, I'll reframe the words where I draw knowledge.
	Okay.
	So I think the truth is written on your heart.
	These are the universals that we're agreeing to.
	I think that the truth of morality is written on people's hearts as the Bible says it is.
	Okay.
	The problem is when people say, no, it's not, it's actually grounded in preference.
	And you can't say it's grounded in the heart unless you believe in God.
	And so if that's the case, it's like, well, then if it's just preference, then the only thing Muslims are doing wrong in their country by outlawing feminism, right, and doing all the subjugation, doing all the shit that you don't like, is just that you don't prefer it.
	If you can give me a reason why, other than I just don't prefer that they do that, and people agree with me, then I actually want to hear it.
	I think it is overall harmful for the society.
	But that's just preference again.
	Harm is a subjective metric based on your preference.
	So you don't think that harm can be quantified?
	No.
	How could it be?
	You don't think that you could ever objectively say something is more harmful than that.
	Harm itself is subjective.
	The idea of what is harm is subjective.
	Like there is gray area, but I do think that there are some pretty clear cases where I could say this is more harmful than this thing.
	No, no, you wait, wait, no.
	Other than grounding that in your preference, you actually can't.
	You can't.
	Not necessarily.
	You can't.
	In a country where young girls are forced to marry men who are far older than them and are forced to do things in that.
	Do you prefer that they don't do that?
	Well, I'd say there's some sort of objective harm there because they have no agency.
	Wait, objective harm?
	I'm going to tell you the difference between objective and subjective.
	Objective.
	Okay.
	That means universally understood.
	No.
	Commonly understood.
	No.
	Or regarded as preferences.
	No.
	Objective means not dependent on a mind.
	Subjective means dependent on a mind.
	How about I say universally regarded or deemed or understood?
	You can say what.
	Yeah, you can say that your preferences are universally regarded.
	But usually not a whole when a lot of people collectively.
	Okay, you can continue, actually.
	Well, no, I agree that you can say that you have universally shared preferences with people.
	I agree with that.
	But so what?
	Still preference.
	All you guys are doing is just consistently asserting the same thing over.
	I'll use the word universal instead of objective.
	Universal preferences, though?
	What else would they be?
	I just don't think that these are preferences.
	How could they be anything but preferences?
	What do you think that a society's goal is?
	To what?
	I think from your view.
	No, from your view.
	Well, my view is that I would want to institute a social goal where people are moving towards Christ Jesus.
	But from your view, society has no fucking goal.
	What is the goal other than what you prefer?
	For its citizens to be happy?
	That's a preference.
	Preference.
	Those are things you prefer.
	Those are things that I prefer.
	Tell me an independent reason other than you and your preference why those are good things.
	You'd prefer Jesus Christ is in everyone's life.
	So that's a preference.
	So my preferences again.
	So it's just what I prefer again.
	So if it's just my preferences versus your preferences.
	Well, what I'm saying is that you can't claim that morality should be based off the Bible and not our preferences.
	I'm not making the claim that it should.
	Well, you're saying that yours should be, but ours shouldn't be based off of our preferences.
	Just say for a second that I agree.
	Me wanting to institute like biblical values is just a preference.
	Okay.
	So, what have we established now?
	What do we establish now?
	You personally are basing your morals off of the Bible, right?
	Sure.
	Those are your preferences.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Great.
	If you're valid.
	And yours are.
	What I'm saying is.
	Mine and yours are not my preferences.
	But by your definition.
	Can they not be your preferences?
	By your definition, we're both going off preferences.
	So why are mine less valid than yours?
	Even though I see that.
	That's the beautiful thing.
	They're not.
	So if it's the case that a bunch of people share the same collective intuition that I do and my preference to fucking enslave all women, then tell me why they're wrong.
	What?
	Because hang on.
	I want you to listen to what I just said.
	Yes.
	If you got a preference and I got a preference, she got a preference and her got a preference, is her preference better than yours?
	I think that preferences can be harmful for society.
	That's nice.
	That's nice.
	That's not my.
	Repeat my question.
	Are her preferences better than mine?
	Are they?
	I truly do believe some preferences are better than others.
	Yes.
	Is that your preference?
	You love this word.
	I don't think it actually means anything.
	Like, it can be a preference.
	Okay, sure.
	If things which you prefer.
	Sure.
	Honestly, let's meet in the middle ground.
	It's a preference.
	Why does that make it any less valid?
	Preferences are important.
	Totally agree.
	And some are more valid than others.
	That is awesome.
	So then it is the case then that if we all just have preferences.
	No, some are more valid than others.
	Okay.
	What makes them that other than your preference?
	I do not think the betterment of society is a preference.
	Well, okay, what else is it?
	What are you meaning?
	Okay, here's what I mean.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Here's what I mean.
	Yes.
	What else could what you want for society being more valuable than what he wants be anything other than a preference?
	That's what I mean.
	Okay, if he wants the downfall for society and I want society to thrive.
	Yeah.
	I personally do think I personally think sounds like a preference.
	Just sounding like, from my point of view, the jetter evil sounds a lot like what I prefer.
	What I'm saying to you is that you are more than welcome to call it a preference.
	I honestly don't care.
	I know that.
	My question is: what else is it?
	If it's not a preference, I do believe that genuinely the goal of society, it's not a preference, but like our goal is to, but it's like the way that human nature is.
	What is a goal?
	Or just nature.
	Let's use any other preferences.
	Is it a goal of movement to discuss any other species?
	Okay.
	They exist because they procreate, because they have the goal to survive, because they eat, because they hunt.
	We all have that goal instilled in us, not because we grew up and decided this is who we are and this is what we prefer.
	It's because it is human nature.
	It's biological nature.
	You want your society to succeed.
	You want to procreate.
	You want to be healthy.
	You want to eat.
	Okay, so help me out here.
	Yes.
	So it's part of human nature that we want to eat.
	Yes.
	We want to shit.
	We want to collectivize.
	We want to do all those things, right?
	Yes.
	Is it also violence part of human nature?
	I think it is more taught than anything.
	I would like, obviously, to some degree, yes.
	But I do think that violence is not a problem.
	So if men collectivize in order to utilize violence to throw all women in little cages to do whatever they want, make them their little playthings.
	Can you tell me outside of why you don't prefer that and a collective of people who agree with you who don't prefer that, that's actually wrong?
	We've agreed that, have we agreed at this point that it is biological human nature to want to survive, to want the betterment for your society?
	Yeah, but okay, sure.
	Okay.
	I think that is bad for society.
	So what?
	So you, me stating, so me stating, like, let's say I'm hardwired to drink this beer.
	Sure.
	Right?
	I'm hardwired to because it's fucking delicious, okay?
	And my Irish heritage demandeth it.
	Okay.
	So I must drink the beer.
	And then I don't.
	I just don't.
	I just decide, yeah, I don't want to do that.
	Okay.
	Did I do something wrong?
	No.
	Okay, so I can go against my nature and I'm not doing anything.
	Are you saying that?
	I can go against my nature and I'm not doing anything wrong.
	Are you biologically engineered as a species?
	You just said if I was biologically engineered to drink the beer and chose not to, I'm not doing anything wrong.
	Okay.
	I do not think that the beer in it doesn't, it has no positive enforcement on anything.
	It doesn't matter.
	It doesn't hold weight.
	Yeah, but positive enforcement is just preference again.
	No, we have agreed.
	No, no, no.
	You've agreed on your preferences.
	You and I agreed on a middle ground that biologically, it is not preference.
	We are instilled with the desire for our societies to what if we, what if we no longer prefer to do what we biologically desire?
	I think that's negative.
	I think that's a bad thing.
	Because I don't think that preference is.
	Yeah, okay, sure.
	Wait.
	So if men biologically desire to subjugate women, it's not a bad thing to do.
	No, I'm, oh my God.
	I'm saying that biologically, which that isn't true, right?
	Do you think that's true?
	Do you think that biologically men are societies and collectives are infected?
	You can make an evolutionary argument that men are definitely biologically wired to subjugate women.
	I don't think so.
	I think that, like, a great example is the fact that the countries that we see thriving the most are the ones with closer to equal rights.
	Well, you see, when you see the word thrive, you know what you mean by that?
	Yeah, bud.
	What do you think you mean by thrive?
	What do you think I mean?
	That people who have your shared preferences are doing good according to your preferences.
	Okay.
	I really do hate to come back to this point.
	I can't wait till you do.
	We've agreed.
	We've come to the conclusion together as a family that the goal of human nature is to survive.
	No, Wait, wait.
	Me saying there's a nature that humanity has and you saying goal, those have to be separated.
	I'm more than inclined to change my whole thing.
	I understand why I'm coming.
	Goal is to change human nature.
	I can understand this.
	Okay, so I will change my wording there.
	Okay.
	Humanity has a biological instinct, right, to survive, to be healthy.
	And I would argue now at the level of, I guess, that this can't be explained by like nature and other animals and species because we have more complex brains.
	But we follow what and them?
	The things we prefer?
	I don't necessarily think that everything comes back to our preferences.
	Here's the thing: is it your preference to be healthy?
	Well, what if it wasn't?
	It wouldn't matter because I think that your preferences come before or come after our biological need to survive.
	What?
	I think our biological need to survive comes before.
	If I want to unalive myself, if I just like want, if I'm like in horrible, ghastly pain, you agree with me, my instinct is to survive.
	Yes.
	Should I go against that instinct?
	No, I think that your biological instincts come first.
	So if I have like a terminal illness and they say, look, man, this is going to eat you from the inside out, you're going to be punished for the next three years and just tortured horribly by this illness, or we can give you this shot of morphine, right?
	My biological instinct is that I want to survive, but I go ahead and go against that nature because I don't want to be in pain anymore.
	Well, it's also a biological instinct to avoid pain.
	And you know that you're not going to survive past that.
	So which one is it?
	But which one takes precedent except the one you prefer?
	I can't control what decision any person makes.
	I think that in that situation, I'd probably kill myself by the way.
	Let's try this this way.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	When people collect, do you believe that there's some objective standard for morality?
	I'm going to say yes.
	Okay.
	I'm not going to regret saying yes.
	That means that you believe that morality is not based on people's minds, but it exists absent people's minds.
	That's what objective means.
	Subjective would mean that it's based only on people's minds.
	Do you think morality is based on people's minds and their brains and what they think?
	Or do you think that it exists somewhere outside of that?
	Okay, we've now reached the point where you're defining subjective as anything that isn't a natural fact.
	Are we on the same page as that?
	I'm genuinely asking.
	No, I'm defining objective as requiring objective not requiring mind.
	Subjective, right, requires mind.
	Can I have an example of something that's objective and also not a natural fact?
	A tree.
	That is a natural fact.
	Yeah, but that's not what I said.
	Think about what I'm saying to you.
	I'm thinking about it.
	Does a tree existing require any minds?
	No.
	Then a tree objectively exists.
	It is a natural fact that it exists.
	Hang on.
	So that's objective.
	It objectively exists.
	Yeah.
	Do morals exist like the tree exists?
	No.
	Then they're subjective.
	No.
	Well, okay.
	Then they're subjective.
	Do you understand the subject?
	Are they subjective then?
	Hang on, hang on.
	Are they subjective then?
	I don't think so.
	I don't think that proves anything.
	Then can you tell me how they exist like the tree exists?
	I don't think it has to exist like a tree.
	That's a weird example.
	Only if you want subjective.
	Don't say objective then.
	My claim is that there is a middle ground between objective and between natural fact and subjective.
	You cannot give me a single thing that isn't a natural fact or subjective.
	Is that true?
	How do you know something's a natural fact?
	Based in science.
	And how do you interpret science?
	Is it with your mind?
	Sure.
	Okay, so then this thing that you've interpreted subjectively, you can determine is objectively real, even if you don't exist, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, well then what the fuck are you talking about?
	I just, okay.
	I don't agree with your definition of objective and subjective.
	May I?
	Then what the fuck does it mean?
	You're just describing you are using objective synonymous with the words natural fact, natural law, something based in science.
	Not natural law and not natural fact.
	First of all, when I say objective, I mean it exists in material reality without your mind.
	Okay.
	Okay, so a social construction.
	Does that require your mind?
	Hang on.
	Does a social construction require your mind?
	Is the government a social construction?
	Yes.
	Okay, is the school a social construction?
	Yes.
	Is a tree a social construction?
	No.
	Then that's the end of the fucking debate.
	Okay, so then I used the terms right, didn't I?
	Well, I'm happy.
	Then I used the terms right, didn't I?
	Didn't I?
	We disagree on the definition.
	How can you definitely just agree?
	By your definition.
	By your definition, I am more than happy to agree that we're even talking about.
	Go ahead.
	It's like whatever we were talking about was subjective.
	Yeah, maybe can I help here?
	So, Andrew, as it relates to preferences, preferences, preferences, preferences.
	What, in your view, is the step beyond justification outside of preference, which means there are an objective standard that you appeal to that's not you, right?
	And that's the grounding foundation for which you're appealing to.
	So, like earlier, she said the law, right?
	That's a subjective standard, but she's appealing to something.
	I just think that anything that you appeal to for rights is just going to be things you prefer.
	And I think that collectively it's going to be things other people prefer and that those preferences can change.
	And since those preferences can change, if it's the case that I have a preference to do bad thing, you have a preference to do good thing.
	Why am I wrong and you're right?
	We've been over this.
	You've asked me this exact question worded differently.
	But I just want to let you know that you never answered it.
	I did.
	We have been over my entire take that I think that we are biologically instilled for the betterment of society.
	That's what we're striving for.
	It is, you know, just a house.
	What if we don't want to go?
	What if we have shared preferences against things that we have biology for?
	Like, for instance, birth control is bad?
	No, what?
	Yeah, so I mean, you have biologically, you're wired to drop eggs.
	Should we stop that?
	Do you think that we should we stop that?
	Do you think that we should?
	Is that because you have a preference that we don't stop that?
	Would you like for me to respond or do you want to keep going?
	You're just going to ramble, but go ahead.
	I do want to actually hear it.
	I do want to actually hear it.
	Like to say, is I don't think that we as a society are currently in a position where we have to procreate for our survival.
	I think if we were, then birth control probably would be bad because it would mean like the extinction of our society or whatever.
	Oh my god, I love you.
	The birth rate, can you tell me if we're reproducing at a rate to sustain society?
	As I mean, that's just not something I know.
	I would guess so.
	Would you like for me to tell you?
	I would love it.
	We are way under replacement rate, and humans are not replacing.
	So, by your logic, we should get rid of birth control until we get at least, yes, South Korea will be extinct.
	Their birth rate is so fucking good.
	Are we talking about South Korea?
	Hang on.
	The United States is dropping rapidly, too.
	And so, the thing is, is like, yes, actually, we could lead to a massive reduction in human beings.
	So, if that's the case, if you say, we have trouble reproducing, no, that's why we don't need birth control.
	Then that would mean we should get rid of birth control, right?
	Aren't there countries that are very much reproducing?
	Not very many.
	There's a few.
	No.
	China's the ones with the values that you guys are debating.
	Isn't China in trying to go down?
	Well, China killed like half its children.
	Yeah, I just, I mean, I do.
	With the one child policy.
	Well, I've killed a lot of people in effect.
	I could see this actually becoming a thing where men take away women's rights who are deciding to do the fuck men trend and that will lead to less babies being born if they're like banned men, men suck, fuck them.
	So then if that's biologically what your imperative is, then we should go against that, right?
	Well, no, because I'm not agreeing with her, but I'm saying by your logic, you have to.
	So maybe I can simplify this like the simplest way possible.
	Like you're talking to Four.
	does morality come from anything but you i mean no because morality is subjective therefore it only exists within the mind Then what else could it be?
	What else could, if it's subjective, what else could be moral except things that you prefer and other people share a preference for?
	I just, this is going back in circles.
	Do you realize what I'm going to answer this with and how we're going to go back to the world?
	That humans are engineered.
	We have had this conversation.
	But even if they're engineered and we can go against our engineering with preference, that would still be moral under this subjective worldview.
	So like, I don't get it.
	I actually don't get it at this point.
	It just seems like, it seems like, remember how we were talking about good faith?
	Yes.
	Like, you should really abandon this position because it's completely fucking incoherent.
	Ultimately, you're just talking about preferences, things you prefer.
	A preference is not something that is biologically engineered into you.
	Should we do everything that's biologically engineered in us?
	No, but my point is.
	Well, then what are you talking about?
	Who cares then?
	You're saying that you should follow preferences to not do things that we're biologically engineered to do?
	I think we're more complex than saying we're animals who need to follow our baseline instincts.
	We don't have to follow baseline instincts, but how can if morality only comes from you, what else could it be besides shit that you just like and prefer?
	What else could it even be?
	Things that are biologically instilled in us.
	That we can go against, and that's fine.
	Yeah, the biological thing is really what's good for you and your family.
	Now we call that society because we have gotten to the point where we no longer have tribes.
	We have big ass countries.
	So now we call it society because it's huge.
	But it's still what is good for me if you're in power and you decide that.
	That's the only thing that matters.
	What is good for that particular person who holds the power?
	I disagree with that.
	That is not my view at all.
	By matter, it means that's what's going to happen.
	Not matter.
	What should?
	What's the ideal?
	What's the utopia?
	It's what's reality.
	Yeah, I'm not arguing in idealistic terms.
	Okay.
	Arguments against Andrew's position are like how the world should be, which is subjective, right?
	He's talking about reality, what is.
	What is.
	Which is objective.
	So the idea here is like, it's pretty simple.
	All of your morality, if you say it's subjectively based, the only real coherent answer you can have is that like things you prefer and things that she prefers and she prefers collectively are moral because you all prefer them.
	The problem, and here's why that has to be the case.
	It has to be the case because otherwise you have to give me a standard that's unchanging, that's objective, that you can appeal to, that would say that whatever you prefer to do is wrong, and you can't.
	So it has to be things that you just fucking like.
	I mean, what else?
	I don't know what else your morals could be.
	You know exactly what I will answer this way.
	Yeah, but you saying that you're engineered to do things that if you prefer to go against is still moral.
	It's still preference again.
	It's always just a reduction of preference.
	All right, but I'll give you guys each another 30 seconds.
	My final thought is just if I don't prefer the betterment of society and I personally prefer for 30 people to die, I think that's negative.
	I don't understand why you're disagreeing with that.
	This is fantastic.
	I think that if X happens, that that's negative because I think so.
	I see.
	You don't prefer any of that.
	Got it.
	Final thoughts?
	Yeah.
	Good talk.
	I have like a new question.
	It's a little different.
	It's different than that.
	I prefer to go have a force.
	I was just curious.
	A girl can dream.
	Think about it.
	Oh, it was just basically like he explained force doctrine.
	I was curious about the prescriptive side of that.
	Because men have a monopoly on force.
	should they be awarded more privileges.
	You should all be fucking grateful men don't do it.
	That's the prescriptive sign.
	Okay.
	That's the prescriptive side.
	I'm always grateful that men don't do that shit.
	All right, please.
	Zeus, thank you for the super chat.
	Please have everyone say woman and the plural form of that word to the Chicago girl.
	You're arguing it for a distinction without a difference.
	It's all prostitution, just different variations of the same thing.
	I guess.
	Okay.
	No, no, sorry.
	I feel like I was pretty clear on why I have differences on variations and the distinctions of what those variations were.
	But again, like I have the respect, like he has the right to have his opinion.
	I have a different umbrella term for it.
	He has a different umbrella term for it.
	But I did have distinction on the levels of what is different.
	So between each.
	Sure.
	Zeus here, he is asking to have, apparently some people will say women instead of woman.
	So he just wants to do a little test.
	Okay.
	You just say woman.
	Singular word woman, plural women.
	You just said the same.
	That was the exact same word you just said.
	Okay, well, do it again.
	I would spell them differently.
	Wait, no, no, no, but do it again.
	Say it again.
	Okay, I am a woman.
	These are women.
	Okay, is that the same?
	All right, we can go around the table if you guys want.
	Just woman, women.
	Oh, that's a good idea.
	Women, women.
	Woman, women.
	Woman, women.
	All right.
	This should be a permanent side.
	Zeus, thank you for that.
	Appreciate it.
	We're going to get into switch topics here.
	I'm going to try to bring it back a little bit to dating here.
	Courtney, you said that women should call the man they date master.
	Your words, not mine.
	That's you, Courtney, over there.
	Kate seemed like she had a reaction.
	I mean, if they want, right?
	If they're into that, I guess.
	So, Courtney, explain the master thing.
	I think it's important for women to recognize in a relationship who's leading the relationship.
	And also, above that, it's not just about leading, it's more about peacekeeping.
	It's kind of choosing, surrendering as a superpower.
	So I see it as a way, because I consider myself a non-traditional woman.
	So it's not just about it's it's not like I need to be specifically in a mold of to who I am as a woman.
	I believe for me to be fulfilled, I must pursue my passions, my happiness, my liberties,
	Yet also have the discernment to yield and let and and this is, and I believe a lot of women would be a lot happier in their relationships and be and and be more feminine when they can refer to their significant partner as master and even if yeah so, and if master,
	I think I call him master sometimes, just sometimes.
	It's actually a very honor, it's like a formal honorific that they used in the, in the.
	How do you say 16th, 16th to the 18th century with 16th, or wait, the 16th to 18th?
	I'm talking about the 16th to 18th century.
	Are you talking about something else?
	When you call when little master, when you're saying master, it's like a little little master, young master, like young master, like person, like you would usually follow it with their names.
	It was very often as a used as a formal honorific, and I just see it as being resuscitated in a relationship.
	What's your orientation?
	Are you straight?
	Are you bi?
	I'm heterosexual.
	Heterosexual.
	So if Felicity was a man, I guess, how would you say master to her if she was your boyfriend or whatever?
	It's like, hi, master.
	That sounds like a weird sex thing.
	Okay.
	So I guess going around the table, opening it up to the panel.
	How would you all say master?
	so uh she she says it would definitely be a sex thing So Courtney says, women should call the man they date master.
	Would you call your boyfriend master if he wanted that?
	Hell no.
	Hell no.
	Kate?
	I actually don't have that big of a problem with it because he'll ask for something.
	It's like, can you give me a water?
	I'm like, yes, master.
	And I just hand it to him.
	It's not always sarcastic.
	Sometimes it's just playful.
	Do you want Kate to call you Master?
	No opinion.
	Once in a while it'd be nice.
	I guess everyone.
	Okay.
	Everybody.
	That already happens.
	Lola, would you call your boyfriend, your new boyfriend, I guess, a master?
	I would not.
	And you wouldn't want me to.
	Okay.
	What about you?
	Would you?
	Absolutely.
	And I have.
	Oh, there you go.
	but not what if it's not even like don't get it twisted maybe it's not even it's not a sexual thing right this is like just uh this is a formal honorific I think you can see it makes it sexual.
	You can see it not, but I think of it as one of the highest degrees of respect you can take.
	It is a very short.
	What I was going to say is I would the only my next boyfriend, someone that I date, is going to be someone that I respect enough that they are the dominant in the relationship, in which case, yes.
	But I wouldn't be with someone that I don't view with that kind of respect.
	So I agree.
	But you don't, but they don't own you, right?
	No, he doesn't own me.
	Master almost denotes that you're some sort of property.
	It's respect.
	Yeah.
	Not ownership.
	I don't really understand that line either.
	The line of ownership.
	Well, if someone's your master, it's like they're like, you have to listen to everything they say.
	Like you're almost their property.
	No, I don't know.
	Chosen master.
	Yeah, the idea here is like it's the same problem I have where people will say like with the R wording the wife thing, right?
	So this is.
	Well, so the idea is like if your wife wakes you up with sex or you wake your wife up with sex, is it R?
	Right?
	Is that what it is?
	And like kind of the feminist trope is like, yeah.
	Yes, it is.
	And it's like, that's really fucking stupid.
	And the reason it's really stupid is because like if your wife goes and spends your money and you didn't consent, is she stealing from you?
	And it's like, no, she's not.
	You know, there's the idea, I've always thought the idea in marriage of one flesh, that's what it actually means, right?
	And so like you being obedient to your husband, isn't that like being obedient to you?
	Isn't that what the idea is there?
	No, I think there's like a concept of personal individual agency that you can exercise in a relationship.
	Like you can be your own person in a relationship.
	You're not getting rid of the agency.
	If you're one flesh, if you're a union, right?
	You're sharing everything.
	You're sharing both of you.
	But hang on.
	You're sharing body.
	You're sharing mind.
	You're sharing money.
	You're sharing everything.
	That's what the whole point of marriage is.
	And if that's not the point, then what the fuck is the point?
	Wait, in that case, doesn't the man also have to take into account and listen to the woman a lot?
	taken to account yes but the thing is to some degree like why is he more yeah because because Because when there was a hostage situation, he shot a fuck.
	That's why.
	And the thing is...
	He said duck and I ducked.
	And like, let me just, like, let's just, let's just lay it out, right?
	Because when the thump in the night went, he fucking answered with the gun.
	And the thing is, is because of that, the protection of your rights, even inside of your home, actually are deferred to the man.
	And so, yeah, you should probably listen to him.
	That's probably a good idea.
	Well, I don't know about master because that has some loading behind it.
	But like, you call a judge your honor, you know?
	And like, what did he fucking do to deserve your honor that your husband didn't do to deserve your honor?
	Right.
	It sure sounds like saying.
	But at the end of the day, if you really don't want to listen to anything the person says, don't be with him.
	Yeah.
	Like, if you, why do you call a judge your honor?
	It's like because it's a very common respect.
	Because it's an honorific that you're supposed to respect my station.
	But if you call a judge your honor, but you can't call your husband your honor.
	You can.
	People can do whatever they want.
	I know, but if you refuse, if you refuse, right, you're giving the judge more respect than your own husband.
	and it's like that to me just sounds counterintuitive so if you call a judge your honor and you don't call your husband your master you're i did Did I say master?
	Well, that's why we were.
	I said your honor.
	Well, you may not like, by default, call him that, but what if he like asked if you could?
	Would you oblige if you respected him?
	Or would you like, no, fuck you.
	How dare you?
	Or like how about this?
	Like in the Bible, the view is Lord, right?
	Like Sarah called Abraham Lord.
	And so the question is, like, if you say your honor to a judge, your honor, you're giving him this really high honorific.
	You're saying your station is above mine.
	That's why they sit at those high benches.
	And that's why they have a gavel.
	They're going to fucking judge your ass.
	I think that's like more of a traditional, just like in the context of like the legal system.
	But why is that tradition there?
	It's to show the distinction in station.
	Your station is down fucking there.
	I get to judge this.
	I get to rule on this.
	And you're going to do what you're fucking told.
	And so the thing is, is like you're going to, you'll cast your fate to them and say that it's okay that they affect society with their judgment, but not your own fucking husband.
	And that to me has always been crazy.
	That's just crazy.
	I mean, what I would say is like, just because I wouldn't be comfortable calling the guy I'm with master, it doesn't mean I wouldn't show him respect in other people.
	You say master.
	Well, that's right.
	Well, you keep, you keep on.
	I literally said to you, you don't have to use a loaded historic term.
	Okay.
	You don't have to be like, look, you know, because master infers slave.
	I get that.
	You can even abandon that.
	That's what I mean.
	But like, your honor, lord, you know, things like that.
	The bow.
	Yeah, something like this.
	Yeah, any of these things that don't have the same that you would call complete fucking strangers.
	You'd call complete fucking strangers that, but not your husband.
	That makes me think like that you don't really respect the person much or that you don't respect someone just because you don't use, like, it's not really common to necessarily use that kind of title in a relationship.
	Yeah, but that just brings it back to the original question, right?
	Like, why do you say it to a judge?
	Why do you say your honor?
	Because it's like the common term that's just used in that legal context.
	It's because he's in judgment and you're deferring your fate to him.
	And so I would think that if it's the case that you, you know, you stand in judgment of your own husband, right?
	That and you defer your fate to them.
	They're the one who has to go to the bump in the night.
	They're the one who has to give you the fucking seat on the lifeboat.
	They're the one who has to fucking sacrifice for you.
	Then like an honorific doesn't seem that bad to me.
	That seems really reasonable.
	If you two are at an decision as to the tiebreaker, who gets to make that decision?
	Who sounds like you've been watching me too much?
	What tiebreaker?
	Wait, what are you talking about?
	I didn't fully hear your question.
	In an argument or a disagreement, he wants one thing, she wants one thing.
	You've talked it through.
	They still want their respective things.
	Who's the tiebreaker?
	The man or the woman?
	They're equally valid in their.
	How do you so?
	Who do you defer to?
	How do we there's only two?
	You just like, you just have conflict resolving abilities then.
	Or if you can't, if you really can't resolve it, it's not bad.
	Yeah, how do you resolve the conflict if neither one of you, if neither one of you, you're at an impasse?
	It's an impasse.
	You can't negotiate an impasse or it wouldn't be an impasse.
	Like, there's no compromise here.
	You feel very strongly on one end, and he feels very strongly on the other end, right?
	Who gets deferred to here?
	Well, no one.
	There's no other third party here.
	Sounds like they just break up.
	What do you think?
	But if it's usually I defer to him because he's more stubborn than I am, but then later, if it's something that I really care about, we'll come to a compromise after he feels bad for being so stubborn.
	If it's a conflict that's not that deep, you can just forget about it.
	But some things have to happen.
	Do you see how you consistently change the framing so as to not answer the question that I'm asking?
	I did answer it.
	I'm not going to help you.
	Hang on.
	I'm going to ask you.
	I'm going to ask you again, and this time I'm going to give you context for every word I'm saying.
	Impasse cannot find a way around.
	Impasse cannot find a way around.
	You can usually find a way around a bit of a bad thing.
	Impasse means you cannot find a way around.
	Let's say you're fully aware of that.
	Let me ask you this.
	Can I ask you one question?
	How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning?
	If I didn't eat breakfast this morning, I feel fine.
	I didn't eat breakfast this morning.
	What do you mean?
	Wait, I don't know what the pass is.
	Let's go with my example.
	So let's say you're at an impasse, and your boyfriend and you.
	You good?
	Yep.
	Sorry.
	I think he's taking a little moment.
	Okay.
	I'm collecting myself.
	It's a face palm, but Mike Paul.
	Yeah, no, I get that.
	So what if your boyfriend has a job to go to Antarctica for his new job?
	It's paying about above the same, but maybe a little bit better than what he's doing.
	And I want to stay here.
	And you want to stay here.
	Oh, then we can move on.
	Honestly, Antarctica.
	Yeah, it's just a breakup.
	Then we would break up.
	She doesn't like it.
	Andrew, would you?
	Would you understand?
	Like, if a girl doesn't want to move to Antarctica, I'm going to be totally honest.
	You break up then.
	I believe 100%.
	If there's an impasse, you break up.
	That if I came home tonight, if I just caught a red eye, I walked into my house.
	I told my wife, we're moving to Antarctica and I don't want you to ask any questions.
	I think that she would do it.
	That's great.
	What about you guys?
	Would you move to Antarctica for Kate?
	He wants a beach house.
	I don't think that would be.
	For her.
	For you, I would.
	I don't know, because you have a lot of things that you like that are like not in Antarctica.
	That's a tough one, right?
	But like.
	If the circumstances made sense or whatever.
	There'd be a compromise, but I think she'd be there like six months.
	And then, Kate, would you move to Antarctica for your husband?
	If it really depended on it, like say I wasn't an influencer and it was just him making the money, then yeah.
	What if he came home?
	Now, mind you, this is a man who literally shot another man to make sure that you didn't expire.
	He came home one day.
	He didn't say shit.
	He was just like, listen, I need you to not ask any questions about this.
	I need you to just trust me.
	We're getting in the car.
	We're going to fucking Antarctica tonight.
	Don't say a fucking word.
	Just go.
	Would you do it?
	Oh, hell yeah.
	See?
	That's great.
	That's the person who's going to be aware of that.
	But that's the, well, there's nothing.
	And what I'm saying is like, that's the deference of an honorific.
	That's the honorific.
	It's not just your honor.
	It's that.
	That's the honorific.
	The fact that she would do it.
	And it's like, the fact that if I just say the word impasse to you, you just pretend like you can't have one.
	You're just like, no, you can't have it.
	No matter what.
	You can negotiate your way out of everything.
	I already made it clear.
	I already made it clear.
	If there was an impasse of that sort, I'd break up.
	She's a strong, independent woman who don't need no man.
	That's the kind of woman that we're thrown in cages and they don't be.
	That's right.
	I want to get married.
	The cages.
	Do you know me?
	Wait, you had a, sorry, your question for Courtney, what is it?
	No, no, no.
	She was just saying I'm a strong, independent who doesn't need a man.
	I want to get married one day, and she doesn't know me, and she's like trying to attach these labels.
	Yeah, I do.
	It's about compromise.
	That's my point.
	I was only using that as a facetious way of saying that, a hyperbolic way, of saying that when women don't understand the way of like the art of just surrendering, which I think is a superpower, it's just compromising.
	Surrendering is not compromise.
	Isn't compromise kind of meeting in the middle of the moment?
	One person, compromise, surrendering is just one, surrendering specifically is one part of the contention and yielding that over to the opposite.
	So make a compromise.
	Completely and utterly.
	If we make a compromise, we come to a conclusion that we're both.
	I think that's the most caring, compassionate thing that women can do is letting, like, that's not compromise, though.
	is surrendering to the decision, forfeiting the decision.
	Why shouldn't men surrender?
	This is, again, another, like, you're seeing it from your point of view, a man you love and respect and wants the best interest for you.
	Yeah, you're going to surrender to him because you know that he will do what is best for both of you.
	She's looking at it as like this guy just started dating in a relationship kind of thing.
	Am I going to surrender to him?
	I don't know if that's what he wants the best for me.
	Like, that's what it's like.
	Because anyone who trusts the other person knows that they've always made good decisions.
	They've always looked out for the best of you.
	Yeah, you would surrender to them because they have a good path forward.
	It's like a kid and a parent who has a good parent.
	But don't you think he's a good person?
	Woman is a kid, though.
	Don't you think?
	A woman knows what's going on.
	Right, but I'm saying like if a kid has a good parent and the parent has never put them in a bad situation, it's understandable that the parent would want the kid to surrender and the kid probably should for the better of women are treated with kids in this analogy.
	It's just an analogy of someone who loves and cares for you.
	Wait.
	It's not that kid.
	It's serious.
	It's a family member who loves and cares for you.
	It's just giving the idea of like somebody who is dependent or physically dependent or in some way dependent on the person.
	You shouldn't get married to a person if you're going to refuse to depend on them.
	That's the whole point.
	Well, yeah, in a marriage, both people depend on each other.
	of course and so the so the thing is is like one of the biggest there was some remember that old country song It was like, I think that pride's the chief cause of the decline of the number of husbands and wives.
	I don't remember who wrote this.
	Someone in chat will tell me.
	Send it this fucking super chat.
	Tell me that it'll drive me crazy until I remember who sang the song.
	But the point is, is it's like, well, that's what it sounds like from you is just pride.
	It's just pure pride.
	It's not pride.
	I'm not going to, if there's an impasse, we're going to fucking compromise because I have a pants suit on.
	And it's like.
	No, no, no.
	You know, it's not always necessary.
	That's all my takes about what I'm saying.
	Like, for example, in a situation, your husband wants to move somewhere for a job.
	You want to stay somewhere for a job.
	That's not about saying, I'm going to have all this pride.
	It's about also thinking about what's good for yourself, your own personal life goals, and just like not basing your whole life around this other person.
	Why don't you trust your mansion?
	Then why get married?
	Yeah, why aren't you?
	Because in this situation, you know that you want to stay in this place and you know that's good for you.
	That's the environment you want to be in.
	More than you want to be with this person that you trust and respect.
	Sure, it can be.
	Sorry, can I also mention on you right now?
	On your kid and on the kid and parent example, an adult would not listen to their parents.
	If my mom called me right now and said, hey, I think you should drop out of school.
	I think that's what's best for you.
	I probably wouldn't listen to that because I'm an adult.
	That's the main difference between that example and my excuse.
	Are you married to your mom?
	No, but you did make, or someone here made the claim that you're not going to be able to do that.
	You always have the choice when you're an adult to leave your parents, right?
	Though I think less and less people are, and they probably should more, but you always have the choice as an adult to leave your parents, right?
	A marriage is supposed to be forever.
	Sure.
	So like if that's the case, why would you want to intertwine yourself with someone forever that you don't trust enough to, when they say this is important to me, to yield to them?
	I am always going to trust myself above anyone else because I'm a very competent.
	Don't get married.
	I'm a very competent adult.
	No, I think that there's a difference as well between leaning on someone and depending on them.
	I think it's perfectly normal to lean on your partner and for them to help you and for you guys to, it should, you know, be helpful for both parties there.
	But I also, I do believe that no one person should ever be fully depending on someone else for their well-being, for their decision-making, for their path in life.
	I think you should trust yourself and I think you should be competent enough to make those decisions for yourself.
	You know, this is pretty funny, right?
	It's like when you're talking about depending here in this context, if you, why get married if you don't want to be able to depend on the person for those things, for those very things?
	Like, for instance, I'm a fucking slob.
	Like, I just am.
	Okay.
	I'm a slob.
	I'm a smoker, right?
	And I smoke in my little fucking man cave, right?
	And I'll consistently look down and the genie has come through and cleaned everything in front of me.
	Sometimes even while I'm live streaming, right, this genie just comes through and just and it's all gone.
	And I'm like, this is fucking amazing.
	It's my wife, right?
	And every single comfort that I can imagine, right?
	She predicts on my behalf.
	You know what I've noticed over the years?
	Totally fucking depend on her for it.
	100%, right?
	Depend on her for it to the point where I don't even really think about it much anymore.
	And it's like, I wouldn't ever want to lose that dependency.
	Why would I ever want to lose that dependency?
	And the thing is, is that if you can outsource, if you can outsource heavy decisions because you know that those decisions overall are going to be the best for you and your family, what's wrong with depending on that?
	That seems really wise.
	I think a primary difference between you and me is I would not like to marry someone for what they can offer me.
	I would like to marry someone that I love.
	I think that a very healthy relationship could exist in the world.
	Then why not just be their friend?
	A relationship looks different than a friendship.
	You guys behave differently.
	What's the difference in your view, except you're fucking them?
	Sometimes you spend more time with that person.
	You live with that person.
	You can spend tons of time with a friend and live with a friend.
	I usually have said so many times to my, I have a few friends I love.
	I will not be in a relationship with someone unless they make me feel that way.
	I think she means romantic attraction.
	Right.
	When you're dating someone out of love, what do you like to have?
	What's the number one thing that you need, everybody needs in a loving, romantic relationship?
	Number one, compromise.
	Aunt Wrong, aunt wrong.
	No, no, none of that's correct.
	It's not trust.
	It's not compromise.
	It's the peace.
	I dish.
	I disagree with it.
	Peace in harmony.
	I think it's a benefit, honestly.
	For you guys on the end, I'm curious to invert that.
	Okay, I just want to say that that was a very prostitute-like thing to say.
	I'm just saying.
	Not beneficial, like super transactional.
	I mean, like you said, where you benefit from having a wife who is good at clean because you're not, right?
	Historically, it's not really, it's not really.
	No, that's not the only one.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, historically, throughout, you know, the humanity, people have married, they have tied, they've aligned houses for benefit, whether it's land.
	That's true, nobility does.
	Like anything.
	And for women, they might be like, I want a father for my kids.
	So they might get married to have that sense of stability rather than a baby daddy, right?
	Yeah, well, generally, like the historic standard, even though I don't like her much, Leela Rose points this out pretty well.
	Even though I disagree with like 90% of her views, she did get this right.
	And I went through and researched it out.
	She's pretty much right.
	It used to be when peasants got married.
	You're talking about the nobility alignment, a house and stuff like that.
	Totally fair.
	But when peasants got married, it was like they usually worked a small plot of land together, the husband and the wife.
	They really actually worked the small plot together.
	If you were a Smith, your wife usually would actually take care of small forge issues, take care of the kids, take care of this, take care of that.
	If you were a tradesman, something like this.
	If you were a farmer, same thing.
	She would exist in that capacity, right?
	As a helpmate.
	It was a helpmate situation.
	The reason that it was so important that it was the man who was in charge is because of the security aspect, right?
	You have brigadiers and bandits and you have things that'll kill you.
	You have literal fucking wolves at the door.
	Right?
	You have three men who will break into your fucking house and grab your wife and try to steal your Bitcoin.
	You got to shoot one.
	That aspect actually hasn't changed.
	Like that aspect of keeping the wolves at bay, that has not changed.
	And so that motherfucker gets the big piece of chicken.
	And that fucking guy gets the higher end of the respect pole because when push comes to shove, you expect him, if you're being held hostage, to kill a motherfucker.
	And your husband did.
	And so it's like, yeah, he gets the big piece of chicken, right?
	That's the way it has to work.
	Yeah.
	And that's still benefit.
	All those biological things, like being packed animals, you know, it's like at the end of the day, we are benefiting from being with one another, you know, and that's good.
	It's not transactional.
	It's not transactional.
	It's not a bad way.
	And that's the way it's.
	That's actually the truth.
	And like, that's the form of dependency that's good.
	It's good dependency.
	Like, how would you have done better on your own when that happened?
	I don't know.
	I'd be dead.
	You'd be dead.
	Like, why shouldn't you depend on that?
	That's fucking, that's like, that seems like basic common sense, you know?
	Seems like basic common sense.
	I think that if he were in her shoes, and this is intended with like zero disrespect at all, but I do think that if you had been in her exact shoes at the time, you also wouldn't have stood a chance against three armed men when you didn't have a firearm on you as she was.
	I'm guessing.
	Do you think that she would have handled the situation as good as him?
	No.
	Would you?
	No.
	No.
	And by the way, on top of that, how are you with guns in comparison to your husband?
	I'm great at shooting them once they're already like set up all the magazines.
	Once he loads your magazines, because your fingers hurt.
	Yeah, and he can't get you.
	The second you get to the center of the magazine, you go, fuck, fuck, fuck, right?
	So he loads it, he takes it, he cocks it.
	That's hard too.
	Right.
	Like the gun would have to already be.
	And then he has to put it down, and then you pick it up, and then you boy, you're a fucking marksman then, aren't you?
	I know, right?
	Yeah.
	It's like, that's the common American story, and that's the common story between men and women that feminists like to fucking lie about.
	They like to lie about that shit.
	Miss has never used a gun, but knows that women can.
	And, you know, I don't know what your history is there, too.
	But when it comes to violence, she has to outsource it to men.
	And you always will have to.
	And that's why they get the big piece of fucking chicken.
	They get the honorific.
	And they get to make the biggest decisions.
	Does that mean in daily life that you don't compromise?
	Of course not.
	Of course you compromise.
	There's all sorts of things I compromise on.
	Look, I want that bedroom.
	That would be a lot better for the girls.
	Okay, well, let's, but you know what?
	Actually, you're right about that.
	So let's make sure that that's for the girls.
	But on the other hand, if it comes down to, hey, this is a big decision.
	It means a lot to me.
	You need to follow my lead and you need to not ask any questions.
	That's what I get.
	And man, that's the way.
	Would you agree that in dating, both women and men can have certain preferences?
	For example, a woman could have the preference to not want to call her man master, and that's fine.
	Yeah, but again, the reason I feel like you keep deferring back to mastery, even though I excuse that.
	It's an example.
	Forget about that.
	Yeah, women and men can both have preferences.
	They can.
	They can have preferences.
	Maybe they align.
	Maybe they align, right?
	But really, would you get rid of a great man who was willing to do all those great things because he wanted an honorific?
	Like, he wanted you to honor him in some way.
	I mean, would I have figured this out late into the relationship?
	Like, I'm curious.
	Like, if we were first starting to get to.
	Well, if you get married to him, you should probably have some sort of, you should put him on some sort of platform like you would put the judge you call your honor, yes.
	He would know by now that I wouldn't be the kind of person who would do that if we had gone to the point to be married.
	So, how is that not just incentive for men to not marry you?
	Well, I don't think most women who prefer to not want to use an honorific on their husband are going to have trouble getting married.
	If you're not using an honorific, it's acting as though the honorific is there.
	The same way you would behave in a fucking courtroom when it came down to it, the time it came down to it, where the judge is going to say such and you're going to obey.
	I wouldn't say that would be you acting as though the honorific was real, whether you said your honor or fucking not.
	Like acting like super obedient and like demure and submissive.
	In certain situations where you need to be demure and you need to be submissive, yes.
	If I'm dating someone, it's going to be like I'm going to act authentically right now.
	Talking about dating, talking about marriage.
	If I'm marrying someone, it's going to be because I know they like me for who I am authentically.
	Wait, can we invert that real fast for you guys?
	Is there a possibility, like, you know, you can pick exactly however you want this person to be, that there's a man that you would, you know, in that previous example, like there's a big decision, you feel one way, he feels the other, right?
	Like, that you would defer to him.
	Is that man even like possible?
	Wait, what do you mean?
	Like, he's good for you in every way, right?
	Yeah.
	That you would be willing in that moment when push comes to shove for the decision, right?
	Like, you feel one way, he feels the other, that you would defer to him.
	I mean, it would depend on what I'm deferring to him to.
	The question is contradictory.
	I would never be a man who is perfect for me who would ask me to stock.
	So, if the answer is no.
	No, no, no.
	So, hang on.
	So, hang on.
	No, he asked the person.
	But the man would not be perfect from the question.
	The answer is no.
	I don't think I'm ready to answer it.
	I'm not asking for a second move to Antarctica.
	No, no, no.
	I'm sorry.
	If I was asked to move to Antarctica, that is giving up my life goals.
	My life goals happen here.
	So the answer is no.
	Yeah, because that man is.
	I told you the answer is no.
	That man is incapable of existing.
	That's a degree of the conflict.
	Like, in certain situations, I would, of course, be willing to cede something.
	You can make this guy perfect.
	Like, anything that you could ever possibly want.
	I could not make him perfect if he's asking for her.
	Yeah, if he's asking her to do any fucking thing.
	No, it's not.
	He can't make it.
	We're talking about extreme life decisions.
	I think that compromise also means sometimes giving in to what your partner is.
	Fine, then don't.
	I'll tell you what, then don't.
	Then he's talking about the money.
	We're talking about huge life decisions.
	Get married and don't defer to him for a huge life decision.
	But also, don't expect him to put his life on the line when three men break into your fucking house and have you hostage.
	No, no, no.
	Don't expect that either.
	Because I would do that for him as well.
	If I was the one holding the gun, I would start shooting.
	You don't have the capacity to do it.
	You have to be capable of shooting a gun.
	I don't think that you're.
	Look, I don't think that you're capable the same way he is.
	Do you believe that I'm capable of being a citizen?
	I don't think you're capable the same way he is.
	He is not.
	My social security will always be deferred to him.
	That was not my question.
	Okay, I'll tell you.
	That's not true.
	Let's say that they're not.
	No, you know what?
	Actually, no, I don't think you're capable of it.
	Tell me how you load a gun.
	I don't know.
	I think that I'm not capable of it.
	Then you're not fucking capable of it.
	You're currently in this state right now as we speak.
	No.
	If I learned to be able to do it, I'm physically capable.
	Then you're not capable of it.
	Okay.
	I just think there's also a different person.
	That doesn't mean she's an employee.
	Yeah, I also think that I'm.
	I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
	Go on.
	I think there's a for a lot of people, there's always exceptions, but women a lot of times will process adrenaline and trauma quickly.
	They're more likely to run than they are to fight.
	If they can.
	Which is why it's fucking smart.
	I don't know if.
	Or submit, right?
	So you have, you have fight, flight, but you also have to.
	That's what I did.
	I ran.
	I ran to him.
	Yeah, I don't know on like a wide-scale thing.
	I know for me personally, I do fight.
	That is my immediate.
	Yeah, well, when three men break in and they have fucking Glocks with 30-round match, you may fight in shit.
	And if he were in that circumstance as well, I'm sorry.
	He wasn't that circumstances.
	He shot them.
	He shot the fucking gun.
	He was holding the gun.
	They didn't know where he was.
	They didn't have him hostage.
	If he was not the one holding the gun, if he was alone in that game.
	I think the woman is here to explain to you that if the situation was reversed, he'd be fucked.
	Yeah, because he's not likely to run.
	He's like likely to fight, but he can't in that moment.
	He'd probably just be dead.
	For me, I'm thinking, where can I run to him?
	And luckily, his response is to fight.
	So that's when the marriage works out.
	Wait, just on this really quick.
	So when this happened, you said you ran in fear to him.
	Yeah.
	I think, you know, I understand a little bit what you're saying, but I think that there's a different component here too, a different angle that we can examine.
	I would argue, just, you know, we're talking about dating that in the event that men won't judge women harshly when women display cowardice.
	So even in instances where you say, well, I would do the same thing, maybe that's true.
	Maybe that's true.
	However, if you were to not do that and you were to run away in a cowardly fashion, your boyfriend or husband would not lose attraction for you, there wouldn't be a negative judgment.
	However, and I don't know if it's the case for you, but I would argue the vast majority of women, if men acted in the same way that women did, where, and I don't think you did anything wrong, by the way, but if men acted in the same way women did, they were cowards.
	They were scared.
	They ran.
	If a husband ran to his wife, oh my God.
	Home invasion.
	Regardless of the outcome.
	She wouldn't be very appreciative, would she, Brian?
	Regardless of the outcome of the home invasion, whether, you know, the woman dispatches the home invaders, women will intrinsically get the ick.
	If the man's a coward, the man doesn't rise to the occasion.
	I think a lot of women are going to, either consciously or subconsciously, they're going to lose attraction.
	There's going to be an assessment.
	But Brian, she's about to tell you she's the exception to that, actually.
	Yes, she is.
	It's a fucking like clockwork.
	It's like clockwork.
	I can predict everything you're going to say before you ever say it.
	What can I say?
	For me, I would have preferred, like, let's say we reverse the situation, right?
	And I'm in the bedroom, they storm in, and then she's hiding somewhere.
	I'd actually, whether I live or die, preferred for her to stay hidden.
	Like, I mean, I think that's just a better, you know, because you have to have some like reasonably likelihood of success.
	Otherwise, it's just a second person dead.
	That literally makes sense what he's saying.
	Can I actually say in the circumstance?
	Hang on one second.
	Let me just point this out, right?
	Hold on.
	What he just gave you was great male pragmatism, right?
	And it's why we're so good at this and why women are so fucking terrible at it.
	I would prefer that you just went ahead and kill me while this person stayed hidden because I think her chances are so low of saving me from this, right?
	That it's fucking stupid for her to pop her head out because if she does, she's just going to die and then there's going to be two of us dead.
	Great male pragmatism.
	Yeah, so what I would say.
	Not what you see.
	Now we see in the majority of these situations from women, which is why she ran to him.
	What I would like to say is.
	I have one question for you.
	One question for you on my statement.
	Yes.
	There's this scene from, I'm going to get some heat for this, but just for R ⁇ D, like she said, research and development.
	I've been watching Sex in the City.
	And there was just for research.
	Research herpses, there's actually a lot of interesting...
	There's a...
	Just don't just stop.
	No, don't worry.
	No, no, no, just that, just...
	No, but there's a scene.
	There's a scene.
	And one of the female leads, one of the female, maybe not the lead, one of the female main characters or whatever.
	What's her name, Brian?
	Yeah.
	What's her name, Brian?
	It was Charlotte.
	Oh, you knew it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	So Charlotte was dating this guy who, I mean, they were sleeping together, so he wasn't gay, but he was acting in a sort of gay, effeminate way.
	And, you know, she was really attracted.
	He was a good-looking guy.
	She was attracted to him.
	But there was one, and she was on the fence about his kind of effeminate nature.
	But there was one breaking moment where like a little mouse or rat scurried across the kitchen and he jumped on a chair like this.
	Oh my God.
	And she just, she knew right then and there it was ove like she couldn't date a guy like that.
	So my question to you is, you say you don't, you wouldn't care.
	You say you wouldn't care.
	You're telling me if you were dating a guy and he saw a spider and he jumped and hid and, oh my God, and screamed.
	It would be funny.
	Like the same way it would be funny if I jumped on a chair and laughed.
	She wouldn't think that.
	I would think what I wanted to say.
	No, I would not.
	Your ovaries would shut up and fucking die.
	Nobody would jump out of your mouth and commit suicide in front of you.
	That's what would happen.
	Ovaries would beat each other to death with their bare feet.
	You are more than welcome to not believe me on this.
	I don't.
	Not only do I not believe you, but like, come on.
	Come on.
	Like, because even your peers would be like, what a bitch.
	Your friend group would say, what a bitch.
	That doesn't matter the interception, though, of course, right?
	I don't know.
	I can't speak on other women's behalf, but I know many women.
	Your last boyfriend, was he bigger and stronger than you?
	I'm sorry.
	Well, your last boyfriend, was he bigger?
	Yes.
	How much bigger?
	How do I like measure that?
	Your height versus his?
	The last person I dated was 6'2 ⁇ , the person I'm currently dating.
	Oh, he was 6'2?
	Was he somewhat muscular?
	Sure.
	Oh, that's interesting.
	You were attracted to this 6'2 ⁇ , muscular man.
	I remember how before when you said we're hardwired for what we're hardwired for?
	Sure.
	This 6-foot-two muscular man, why do you think you were attracted to him?
	Was it because he was big and strong and buffalo?
	No, he wasn't.
	It wasn't.
	No.
	It just happened to be that he was 6'2 and muscular.
	Genuinely is.
	Yeah.
	That's insane.
	How many of you women happen to find the guy with the perfect personality happens to be 6'2 ⁇ and muscular?
	That's crazy.
	It had nothing to do with his physical characteristics.
	Broke up with him and he looked the same the whole time.
	Yeah, you can break up.
	You can break up with him, sure.
	But the point is, is like the guy before him, was he five foot fucking six and bald?
	He was, I think, five seven and had the forehead that was like a forehead that was his entire life.
	And how long were you with him?
	Two years.
	And how long were you with the last boyfriend?
	Two and a half.
	So every time, it's funny.
	I'm just saying, it's funny to me that many times I hear women talk about how it is that, no, if this guy acts like a fucking pussy, I don't mind at all.
	It's fine.
	I would think it was funny.
	It's cutesy, actually.
	And then you ask him about the characteristics of their boyfriend, right?
	And here's what you find out.
	They're tall and they're muscular and they absolutely would never do that in a million fucking years.
	Jump.
	Would your six foot two muscular boyfriend go, hang on?
	Would he jump up on a chair and go, oh my God, a rat?
	Would he?
	The truth.
	My ex-boyfriend?
	Yeah, would he?
	Like, probably not.
	Yeah, probably not.
	But also, isn't that a good thing?
	This is one of the most feminine men I know.
	I'm sorry, with love.
	He's probably watching this.
	We're great friends.
	But he's very feminine.
	He's like a very feminine man.
	Okay.
	He's not tough by any means.
	But he ain't going to jump up on the fucking chair and say, oh, a rat.
	I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
	I don't think logically he would.
	Okay.
	I just think it's interesting that you said that the trait you value most in a relationship was trust.
	Compromise.
	Okay, it was compromise.
	Okay, I thought yours was trust.
	So yours was trust.
	Okay.
	Then is that still the deciding factor for you in a successful relationship?
	I think there are many deciding factors.
	You have to choose one.
	If I had to choose one, I'd say compromise, but it really is on equal par to a lot of other things.
	That's just an effect.
	That's just one means to an end for what?
	Compromise is one tool in the tool belt of your utilities to achieve what?
	A happy, healthy relationship?
	Happiness or peace.
	One of those two, right?
	Like, that's what I had said before: is the most important deciding factor of a relationship is peace.
	When you're not able to use the tools in your tool belt to accomplish said end effect, whether yours is happiness or peace, I mean, they're kind of the same thing for me.
	Then I think that is a failure on this.
	But you don't advocate for compromise.
	You're advocating to not use the tool in your tool belt to lead to a happier relationship.
	That's our shit.
	She had nuance with her position.
	It wasn't simply compromised.
	Her nuance was attempt to compromise.
	And then if it doesn't.
	It wasn't.
	It was.
	That's true.
	If we get to the time where it's a massive decision and there is an impasse where debate no longer works, where discussion no longer works, where rather than throw the relationship in the toilet, she'll yield and she'll go ahead and go with the person that she trusts, who's her husband, which is what she's supposed to do.
	That is very different than saying, I refuse to compromise.
	That's saying only in the situations where, like, look, this matters so much to him that he's unwilling to.
	I need to trust that.
	But in a situation where something matters so much to her that she's unwilling to, why does it not matter?
	Because there has to be a tiebreaker because there's only two of them.
	So it just goes to the menu.
	There's only two of you.
	So it just, it just defaults to the business.
	Look, you can have a relationship where you can defer to the woman for those choices, but those relationships tend to not work out.
	I disagree with that.
	I don't think they should be definitely aware of that.
	Hang on, I don't care what you disagree with.
	What we see from data itself is that women want assertive men with good leadership capabilities.
	If that's the case, if you have good leadership capabilities, if you're unwilling to compromise, then that means that you must have some really good fucking reason for it.
	So, if she's unwilling to compromise, then she must have really good reason for it.
	Women don't generally exert the same type of leadership abilities as men.
	I guess generally, but again, I mean, you're just claiming that this is how relationships should function without.
	Well, I'm not saying that you couldn't do it the opposite way.
	I'm only giving you the fact that if you do do it the opposite way, they generally don't work out as well as the other way.
	Well, I don't think that it works out well either way.
	Guys, I'm sorry.
	I do have to move, move it on to the next topic.
	Robert Tanner, hey, Brian, from Robert Tanner.
	Been a while into the stream.
	Glad to be back.
	Did the panel submit to the government when they forced a shutdown and caused us to obey restrictions?
	Yeah.
	It's a good question there.
	A bit of obedience there, wasn't there?
	Couple quick things, guys.
	Hope you're enjoying the stream.
	Just a reminder, Rita's 200 TTS 300 Venmo Cash App.
	That's whatever pod.
	And by the way, can we take a second to just say we've put on a really good show tonight?
	Interesting conversations.
	Send in those big fat super chats.
	We have to have them.
	It's necessary.
	We need cracking of the bottle.
	We do.
	Another champagne.
	If Klain is still in the chat, we can definitely do it.
	Some quick shout-outs.
	Rachel Wilson on Venmo with the 20.
	Thank you, Rachel.
	That is Andrew Wilson's wife.
	Thank you, Rachel.
	Good to have you in the chat.
	Adtia, thank for the 10.
	India, thank you for the 5.
	Travis, thank you for the 20.
	Troy, thank for the 10.
	MC Rocker, thank you for the 25.
	Appreciate it, guys.
	Also, let's pull up Twitch.
	Guys, ooh, Nick was fast with it.
	Well done, Nick.
	Twitch.tv/slash whatever.
	Guys, if you have Amazon Prime, you want that, you know, you have the two-day shipping.
	All you have to do, you link your Twitch account to your Amazon Prime, your Amazon Prime to your Twitch account.
	Every single month, you get a, well, you have to pay for the Amazon Prime, but you get a free Twitch Prime sub that you can use for any streamer.
	Every single month you can do it.
	We don't even have to be live.
	You can just, you know, go to our channel.
	We're offline.
	You can drop a Prime.
	It's a quick, free, easy way to support the show every single month.
	Drop us some Prime sub.
	If you're watching on YouTube, we have like 11,000 concurrent on YouTube.
	So open up a Twitch tab, twitch.tv/slash whatever.
	Drop us a follow, drop us a Prime sub if you have one.
	If you're enjoying the stream, guys, I don't do sponsorships.
	I'm not doing sponsor, any really any sponsorships.
	So we're viewer supported.
	So we need, if you guys want us to put on more shows, show some support.
	So drop us a follow, drop us a Prime sub.
	Really appreciate it.
	Guys, Elsa shot.whatever.com.
	Get some merch.
	We're selling the Jazz Cups, excuse me.
	We're selling the Jazz Cups.
	They don't make these anymore, by the way.
	Okay, this is how, and by the way, this is how, I don't know if I'm autistic or something.
	I am so, I am so determined, so stubborn to have exactly these cups.
	I contacted Solo, the company that makes these, and I was like, hey, could you print me a case, which is a thousand cups?
	And they're like, no, we don't, we work bulk.
	We need, it's like a 60 case minimum.
	By the way, 60 cases is 60,000 cups.
	And I was like, how much is it?
	They're like, it's a couple thousand bucks, man.
	I was like, fuck it, do that shit.
	So I have 60 cases, 60,000 of these cups.
	Oh my gosh.
	Just so I can.
	And by the way, it takes me probably a year to go through, more than a year to go through one case.
	So I'd have to be doing the show for 60 years to finish all these cups.
	I'm a fucking madman, but I don't know where I'm going with that.
	But anyways, I've stored some at my parents' house.
	They're not happy with it.
	And there's like 30 cases, and it's actually a nightmare.
	But anyways, it's for the vision.
	It's for the, yeah, guys, help me out here.
	Pull it back up, Nick.
	I'm trying to get rid of them.
	I'm trying to fucking empty the stock.
	They were expensive.
	So you can get a sleeve.
	You can get a case.
	Also, go back.
	Go back.
	We're selling the Picklehaba.
	Picklehaba.
	Scroll down.
	Madison's Picklehaba.
	Felicity.
	Felicity.
	There's like different variations.
	We have like six or seven of them in the studio.
	Madison used to have one.
	We're selling three of them.
	So, anyways, you can support via shop.whatever.
	Also, don't join our Discord.
	Oh, really quick.
	Pull up Discord.
	Yeah, that's fine.
	Discord.gg/slash whatever.
	If you're enjoying the stream, like the video.
	Also, guys, debateuniversity.com.
	If you want to learn how to become a master debater like Andrew Wilson over here, you got to check out his program, DebateUniversity.
	Excuse me, dot com, what the heck?com.
	You won't know how to proceed in life.
	Not around the holidays.
	I mean, you're going to have to.
	Oh, boy.
	Yeah.
	You're going to have your bring back.
	Yeah, you're going to have your stupid liberal friends over.
	You're going to have your dumb liberal parents around.
	You're going to have your stupid liberal sister.
	You want to make sure that you smash their faces in verbally, of course, around that Thanksgiving dinner.
	The best way that you can do that is to buy the course.
	And you should do that, yes.
	Andrew does raise a good point.
	Thanksgiving time, Christmas.
	You're sitting down with the family.
	Many a familial relationship has completely degraded due to eggnog and fucking turkey and just getting political.
	And Brian, if they're going to fucking hate you the next day, you might as well win.
	Exactly.
	DebateUniversity.com.
	So when you do have that Thanksgiving debate with your fucking aunt, you smoke the shit out of her and completely scorch dirt that way.
	Make sure she doesn't talk to you until next Thanksgiving.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Get disowned by your parents.
	Get debateuniversity.com.
	We're doing maybe that's too far.
	Okay.
	No, no, no.
	If it's a progressive aunt, you know, get disowned.
	But just do it.
	Do it with style.
	Do it with style.
	All right.
	Discord, guys, discord.gg/slash whatever.
	Just for the sake of time, I don't know if we'll, at the end, time, time allowing, I'll get into the Crash Out Kylie update.
	If you guys don't recall, Andrew had a heated debate with Crash Out Kylie, and then she's lost her mind online.
	She got Belle's palsy and blames it on us.
	And then she's making up all these lies like she was.
	Digitally essayed.
	Well, that's crazy.
	Digitally essayed.
	But she's claiming she was dishonestly lured to.
	She didn't know what she's getting into.
	Nick, just click that photo at the yeah, yeah, yeah.
	She claims we were dishonest and she didn't know what she's getting into.
	Hi, Kylie.
	Hope you're doing well.
	Would like to have you on our podcast for a debate on feminism.
	I don't know how that could be.
	I don't know if she thought we were, I don't know, you know, whatever.
	Anyways, that was for a 1v1 debate, different from the dating podcast.
	But I was too mean.
	Smoky Man.
	We could refer to the legal definition of essay if you prefer.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Digital essay legally means something very differently than what she meant.
	Holy shit.
	And by the way, can I just point this out?
	She threatened to sue Brian because she lost a debate.
	She threatened to sue him.
	Oh, yeah.
	She lost a debate.
	Yes.
	I've never seen anything like this.
	This was like this, even Desiree wasn't that fucking crazy.
	Well, actually, Desiree also sent me legal threats.
	Never mind.
	Desiree was that crazy.
	Desiree is definitely that crazy.
	And Priscilla, by the way.
	The two women who happened to assault me.
	The girl.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's crazy.
	Anyways, one sexually assaulted me and then the other one literally tried to physically assault me.
	It's wild.
	It's what uh Nick, go back to the Discord really quick.
	If you guys want to see discord.gg/slash whatever, pull that pull up that.
	Yeah, just go for the by the way, I post all my legal threats.
	I post my legal threats.
	It's you see it there in the whatever legal threats.
	You don't have to go to it, but it's there if you want.
	I post a lot on the Discord, by the way, guys.
	Behind the scenes, legal, all this stuff.
	So join the Discord, discord.gg/slash whatever.
	If speaking of legal threats, if you want to see all the ridiculous fucking oh, cease and desist, blah blah blah.
	You know, look, if it's if it's valid, you know, whatever.
	But all the most of it's just bogus, what's the term?
	Frivolous, frivolous, frit, frivolous, frivolous, nonsense.
	I also have to shill for just a quick second.
	DebateCon.
	DebateCon.
	It's coming up the 15th, 16th.
	Two headline debates over there.
	We've already sold, I think, over 200 tickets.
	There's not very many left.
	Strongly suggest you get over there.
	It's going to be a blast.
	You can get those tickets on modern day debate.
	And yeah, it's going to be a blast, guys.
	So I hope to see all of you there.
	It's in Nashville, Tennessee.
	I also have to shill for Kate for Amaranth.
	No, you don't.
	Don't worry about it.
	She, tomorrow, she, after the debate that you have scheduled.
	By the way, speaking of which, more shilling.
	Andrew Wilson has a debate tomorrow.
	Tomorrow, approximately 3 p.m. Pacific, round two with Naima.
	Naima from Jubilee.
	Round two, that's going to be big, guys.
	Do not fucking dumb.
	Do not lie.
	What do you mean?
	No, be nice, Andrew.
	Come on, be nice.
	Anyways, I got it.
	I'm going to do a, I'm going to show for Amaranth here.
	You know, after she, after that debate, there's going to be a hot tub in the whatever studio, and there's going to be ear microphones for ASMR.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	I didn't bring it.
	You should have told me ahead of time.
	Could have brought them.
	Oh, you still, do you still do the ear ASMR?
	I don't lick them anymore.
	Is it like against the TLS?
	Yeah, it is.
	That's good because I got really tired of doing that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You know what?
	Tripped me out.
	So I never, when I first started streaming, I had no idea what this ASMR shit was.
	And somebody sent it to me.
	And I was like, what the fuck is this?
	Like, why does anybody watch this shit?
	This is the craziest thing.
	And then I started thinking about it.
	And then side by side, I put up the sound the predator makes with the ASMR, and it was fucking identical.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	So like the ear liquors all over Twitch.
	I put it, you put up the predator, just the predator mouth going, you know, the sound it makes sounds fucking identical.
	Actually, you know what?
	But Brian, do you know how ironic that is?
	The predator sound is the same sound.
	Just saying.
	There's something there.
	There's something there.
	There's definitely something.
	I haven't like an alien fetish.
	No, I'm not sure, but I think that there's a play on words there that I want to dive into that I don't quite have figured out, but you know.
	Thank you, David.
	Yeah, it's hey, by the way, I'm on the diet and I'm I refuse to do Ozempic, raw dogging the diet.
	Actually, you know what?
	What do you mean?
	I've lost a ton of weight.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what you're talking about there.
	Yeah, I lost 10 pounds.
	You know, it's coming off.
	You know what, though?
	Brainstorm.
	Look, the camera adds 100 pounds.
	It adds 100 pounds.
	It adds 100 pounds and it makes me look way less muscular than I actually am.
	I actually was thinking, though, we should do a dating talk panel hot tub stream.
	Oh, no.
	Not with you, Andrew.
	Not with me.
	I don't even want to be in that shit because you're suggesting it.
	What do you mean?
	I'll have Kate host it.
	Felicity will do and then it'll be a hot tub dating talk stream.
	Would you be a prostitute at that point?
	No, what?
	No.
	Because it's sexual activity.
	No, hold on.
	Look.
	Then he'd be a pimp.
	It's different.
	No, no.
	No, no.
	Hang on.
	Hang on, Aeon.
	It is different.
	He would be a pimp.
	Yeah.
	You got me that.
	would be a pimp yeah i think it's different because because uh you know you would be people go in hot tubs and that's not inherently why don't you just Why don't you just put on the pimp hat, Brian?
	Like, that's what you're saying.
	By the way, let's get him on the back.
	Without the.
	Oh, he's letting the hair down.
	Wait, you got to do slow-mo, like, you know, wave.
	Oh, shit.
	I swear to God, you're exactly what I envisioned an Asian pimp would look like.
	I'm just going to point that out, okay?
	Oh, shit.
	That is crazy.
	Oh, me so funny.
	How did you get his voice lines?
	That's insane.
	That's crazy.
	Whoa.
	Okay, so anyways, here, moving on to some new topics here.
	I would never.
	Moving on to some new topics.
	Continuing, though, with Courtney's notes, Courtney, you say women's highest good isn't bearing children.
	It's the same as a man's, which is self-sacrifice.
	I mean, childbirth could be a little more.
	Let me add a little bit here because you wrote some more.
	You say you disagree vehemently.
	Did I say that right?
	Vehemently.
	Vehemently.
	Wait, Vehemently.
	Women should, you disagree that women should be at home barefoot and pregnant.
	She should find her purpose with alignment of the man she chooses to date.
	It is this reason you disagree that a woman's greatest joy is rearing children.
	It first is beholden to her husband, herself, then children, or God, husband, children herself, or husband, children herself, if that is what her man chooses for her.
	I think it's, I may have been a little bit of word vomit there, but I do believe that in essence, self-sacrifice people, it's like self-sacrifice.
	In essence, it's about not just going and making a sandwich, going and making him a sandwich that makes a woman the most obedient type of helpmate.
	I believe, you know, not all women can bear children and not all men want or want children.
	And I think that that doesn't make people less at all.
	I think what makes people valuable to society is when they can emulate what self-sacrifice looks like, whether it's self-sacrifice to your work, to your spouse, to your, you know, if you can have children, children, to education, to something philanthropic, you know, is there any higher value a woman who can have children have for self-sacrifice than having children?
	So, I mean, the same thing can be posed to a man.
	If a man is with you.
	you pose it to a man.
	Okay.
	I'm going to answer your question first, but then I'd like to reverse it.
	But with a woman that is fertile, is...
	What's a higher sacrifice she could make than having children?
	I believe it's going to be as the helpmate of the man to serve as, like I said, like I believe that she should call him master in a relationship, meaning that she surrenders.
	If she truly loves this person, think about what surrendering, what that means.
	That means you're at peace, that you trust this person, that you trust this person with your life.
	That, you know, a lot of people, we want to think, we want to fight, we want to argue, we want to, like, be upset and offended by something.
	Wait, really quick, just as a clarification, because I don't know if it's even worth getting into this, I might just move it on, but you're not anti-natalist, correct?
	No.
	No, it's just.
	She's giving an order of hierarchy, which makes sense.
	She's saying, husband, that's the.
	She's not God-believing, I suppose.
	So, so otherwise.
	Yeah, so it goes, well, right, but wouldn't it be God, right?
	And then husband, then children.
	That's the hierarchy.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That makes sense.
	Okay.
	I'm going to come back to some of your other notes, Courtney.
	I'm going to try to get some of the other panelists in.
	Let's see.
	We have Sav.
	Your dating experience has been a roller coaster.
	Last relationship ended in calling off an engagement.
	You called it off, or?
	He called it off.
	Okay, he called it off.
	You say your ex-fiancé proposed to you with a hat?
	Yeah, so we were at a music festival.
	He went by captain.
	I knew the proposal.
	That hat?
	No, it was a captain's hat because he went by captain, and so is his way of proposing in his mind.
	Oh, in his mind, presenting me a captain's hat saying you're my co-captain was his way of proposing.
	I also had anticipated that there would be a ring.
	I didn't know about the hat.
	But yeah, we were at a music festival and he proposed with a hat.
	And then he took it back two days later.
	At the festival after sleep deprivation and party favors and seeing me interact with my best friend to affectionately, I don't know.
	I was excited.
	Was your best friend a man?
	Yeah, he flew across the country to be there to support.
	And I was.
	So your best friend happened to be a man.
	Yeah, and he said you were.
	Yeah, you were affectionate after you proposed to me.
	Two days later, he said, well, he decided that I was a witch who had manipulated him into proposing to me with my seductive power.
	And he no longer agreed to wanting to.
	Are you a witch?
	Well, no, hang on.
	Do we have a duck?
	I have some questions.
	So maybe that's the post hoc justification.
	By the way, are you into witchcraft?
	No, I don't practice.
	I mean, I have like my own rituals that I do.
	That sounds like practicing.
	I guess.
	Usually if I do ritual things, I'm practicing them, right?
	I mean, just practicing like scripting things and writing things that I want to achieve almost as a manifestation.
	Yeah, like affirmations and manifestation and choosing manifestations.
	Choosing times that are like under a full moon.
	I'll release things that are.
	I guess it's witchy.
	A little bit.
	You're trying to manifest things under a full moon.
	It's a little bit witchy, but here's the thing.
	It's like, okay, so you are indeed a witch.
	Okay.
	And out flies your supportive bestist buddy who happens to have a penis.
	Yeah.
	After this guy proposed to you.
	And he thought you were a little too affectionate with him.
	And was he right?
	Were you too affectionate with him?
	I mean, I was hugging him and spending time with him, catching up, but I don't know.
	In Mortal Kombat, that was called a brutality.
	To his perspective and to his friend's perspective, I guess that I was.
	His friend?
	His friend thought you were a little too.
	I guess there were conversations being had about my friend being there, having problems with my friend being there, having problems with me being so close and affectionate and wanting to spend time with him.
	Now, let me ask the ultimate question, the truth now.
	Yeah.
	This best friend that you flew out, have you ever slept with him before?
	No, absolutely not.
	From the beginning of our relationship, we established that we wanted to just be friends.
	Made out with him?
	No.
	Nothing?
	No.
	Are you still friends with him?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	You said that your dating experience has been a roller coaster.
	I mean, no offense.
	I mean, this seems like pretty milquetoast.
	Like, okay, proposed, but there was like jealousy.
	When you say, like, when you say roller coaster, like, what is the number one example you could provide like of the craziest roller coaster?
	I don't know.
	I dated somebody who was like, I'm not sure what he was diagnosed with because he tried to deny all of his diagnoses, but it was very toxic and he was threatening to take his own life in front of me and just various things to try to manipulate me into, I don't even know, whatever position or thing he decided for the day.
	Toxic abusive, got it.
	Moving to Willow.
	You've said you've been with some alcoholics.
	One of your exes used to pee on the bathroom floor.
	Yeah, that was like one of his most common things when he would blackout drink.
	I would like know to check the bathroom outside the door.
	And if the light was off and he was in there for too long, there was more than likely going to be urine on the floor.
	Okay.
	So you wrote something about mama's credit card boy.
	What?
	Mama's credit card boy?
	Yeah, I dated like my one rich guy in my life and he was just like absolutely horrendous.
	Like he never trimmed his nails.
	He never covered his food with tin foil and put it in the fridge.
	He was dirty.
	He was mean.
	He's just like very spoiled.
	And like it was very predominant that like he knew that like he had money and he could just go like get whatever he wanted and like his phone wasn't loading fast enough, tried to smash it or like throwing a vape across the room because it wasn't working and just very like.
	Gotcha.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Final note from you, Willow.
	You said feminism and how being a feminist includes respecting men and truly acting as if you respect women.
	Yeah, I think like when it comes to feminism, it's about not just having a place for women.
	It's also about having a place for like everyone as a whole.
	And because like I'm a big fan of Roma's army and that's a big part of like what I watch a lot and people that I engage with on social media.
	It would have been nice if she had shown up for that debate.
	I wish she was here today for that, but I do.
	Well, she's an anti-I'm an ant technically an anti-feminist feminist.
	I don't believe, I don't agree with how modern feminism is today.
	I think that having a space for men's emotions, creating safe spaces for men to exist and to also like be vulnerable and like, you know, just create safety and accept that like men can be treated just as poorly as women can.
	Women do use their places of like, like how we could hit a man and it can be a whole or they can hit us and they will go to jail, you know, and like you can turn around and beat your husband for years.
	And what is he?
	There's like a, you know, the P word and like nobody like ever tends to believe them.
	And I think like having spaces for men is just as important as spaces for women.
	You guys are just as valuable.
	So.
	All right.
	Here we're going to do before we get into some of the notes from some of the other panelists.
	Asmund Gold TV here ask everyone to rate their own looks.
	Is that actually Asmen Gold TV?
	Probably.
	Yeah.
	Probably not that.
	Ask everyone to rate their own looks on a scale of one to ten.
	You can't pick seven.
	Own looks, physical looks, scale of one to ten.
	I'm curious, based on what?
	Like societal beauty standards?
	Whatever, whatever you want to use.
	Well, I'm just curious because there's like no, there's no such thing as objective, right?
	So like societal beauty standards are also.
	I don't rate myself.
	I mean, I'm like, I'm like comfortable with.
	Okay, look, I'll say I'm comfortable with how I look.
	Obviously, societally, I'm not going to be like what the most people might find most conventionally attractive.
	And someone might rate me super low.
	If somebody said that you were a three, can you tell me, would you disagree with them?
	Well, they might truly, I might truly really not be their preference, right?
	I know.
	Everything's made up of preferences.
	Would you disagree with them?
	Well, I think I look better than they think I look.
	Great.
	Whatever that number is.
	I just don't have that.
	Give us that.
	Whatever that number is.
	Hang on.
	Whatever that number is.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Whatever that number is that you disagree with them and you think you are, then give us that one.
	But I don't know what number I think I am.
	Well, I mean, you disagreed with him if he said you were a three.
	So you know you're not that number.
	So whatever the number is that you think you're not.
	No, I don't think.
	Hang on, Whatever number you think you are that made you disagree with him when he said you were a three, tell us what that is.
	I mean, when I think about this number, it's like it's always like this kind of question is always based on societal beauty standards because I can say I'm completely comfortable with.
	Which many of which are universal.
	Right, but I thought we said there's no such thing as like objective or universal.
	So universal morality is different.
	Okay, I mean, I can talk about universal like as in societal beauty standards.
	Okay, but so beauty, it's not, it's not objective in like a strict philosophical sense.
	It's not subjective.
	Can you not interrupt?
	Shut.
	Oh my God.
	Go on.
	So it's not objective in a strict philosophical sense, but it's not purely subjective either.
	It's not just in the eye of the balder.
	So I think it's at least partially grounded in objective, measurable things.
	Okay, so that's what I was saying earlier.
	If I'm considering how like across society, how like people would rate me, like, I don't know, maybe like a 6.5.
	I don't know.
	That's my guess.
	Don't closer.
	I'll give you a number.
	But you can't pick seven, but you pick 6.5.
	Well, it says 10.
	So if you had to pick 6 or you had to pick 8.
	I'll pick a 6 purely because, I mean, I don't know.
	Yeah.
	Kate, what about you?
	10.
	Love it.
	Eight.
	Closer to the mics if you can, guys.
	We heard it.
	10.
	10.
	You don't think you're an eight.
	No, no, no, no.
	You're 10.
	I really do think I'm an eight.
	Like, we're just saying looks only, right?
	Like, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I think it's fine.
	What?
	All right.
	But you think he's.
	He's pretending to be humble for.
	You have a thing for Asian guys.
	I mean, I get it.
	What?
	Okay, Mr. Watch's sex in the city.
	Hey, look, there's a lot of real, like, relatable, you know, stuff.
	RD, just say RD.
	There was research.
	But, Andrew, that's kind of not mean to say, you know?
	I'm not mean.
	I'm not being mean.
	He's being nice.
	Yeah, what do you think?
	Do you think he's higher than an eight or lower?
	You know, compared to like the norms of beauty standard?
	No, of course not.
	He's like, you know, fucking shitbag like you.
	What are we all?
	Fives?
	No, I'm less than that.
	I'm like four or three.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Here, let's just say.
	Let's let everybody answer first, though, before we get into the 10.
	But.
	Sorry, bud.
	Eight.
	Eight, okay.
	I definitely don't fit into societal beauty standard norms, so I'm going to say nine.
	I mean, I there was even a comment.
	I would have said 11, but I think I'm beautiful.
	I'm just saying that because what she's saying about like norms, I'm not normal.
	There's how comfortable you feel with yourself, and then there's like how other people are going to regard you.
	There's a distinction if we're considering how other people are going to regard me.
	I'm not normal looking.
	But I'm going to give myself.
	Is that confusing, Andrew?
	What about like just facial attractiveness?
	Like, so you're talking about like because you do bodybuilding, right?
	Right.
	But that really doesn't change like face face.
	I'll give my face a 10.
	Okay.
	What about you?
	I would say a nine.
	Okay.
	What about you?
	One.
	Okay.
	Come on.
	Really?
	I just reject societal beauty standards.
	All right.
	I'm going to go have a cigarette.
	This is the most ridiculous numbers I've ever heard.
	This is actually really bad.
	Andrew, this is the worst.
	The worst I've ever seen.
	Why would I not be able to say I think I'm a nine?
	Because you're not.
	Fuck, it's not even in any fucking conceivable universe in anywhere that there's alien lives.
	So I agree.
	She's nine.
	It's not even possible.
	How would you ever rate yourself as a nine?
	This is the most beautiful fucking women on planet Earth or a nine.
	What?
	Where do these fucking delusional shook come?
	I gotta have a smoke.
	All right.
	I don't understand why I'm not allowed to believe something that I'm.
	It's all kinds of shit that ain't true.
	People do it all the time.
	Okay, but I confidently see something in myself.
	Is the question how I am viewed by society or how I view myself?
	Because I've shouldn't that be somewhat grounded in, yes, how like, so beauty would be something to some degree external to you.
	Like your physical appearance, absent mirrors and smartphones, that is something interpreted by externalities, other people.
	Okay.
	So here, maybe we can ask a different question then.
	So, okay, you think this, you think you're a nine.
	Going around the table, whatever your rating is, what do you think if you're in a room with a cross-section of 100,000 men, what do you think they would rate you on average?
	I guess starting with you.
	And then we'll go that way.
	Me?
	No, you.
	Me?
	Yes, you.
	Oh, my God.
	Okay.
	Okay, so the question is: is cross-section 100,000 men?
	The average rating of the average rating that they would rate me.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Do you want to repeat it one more time?
	No.
	Not particularly.
	Do you want to answer the question, please?
	A one.
	At that rate, I would say.
	That's just a troll answer.
	Okay, what about you?
	I would say a six.
	A six.
	Okay, what about you?
	Into the mic, please.
	Nine.
	Nine, okay.
	I still think I'm an eight.
	Well, that doesn't really answer the question.
	You would still think you're an eight.
	Like based on what they would rate you an eight.
	So yeah.
	They would rate you a three, but you would still think you're an eight.
	No, I would still think they would rate me an eight.
	I've like have lost a ton of weight.
	I do like, even though I'm a little more baggy, I actually have a pretty general preferred body type.
	I do have plenty of men who come up to me in places and find me attractive and message me and I have followings on social media and I don't understand why like, just because I'm covered up, like I have a very preferred curvy body type.
	My personality is enjoyable, even though I haven't gotten to show that in almost six hours on this podcast, but I'm a pretty cool person.
	So, person like looks wise, personality wise, like education wise, background wise yeah, I would be an eight, but I'm not Angelina, so why would your personality and your education matter?
	I'm just I'm just adding that in and I am still on the point.
	Yeah, I would think I would be an eight in most men's eyes if they were all, like a hundred men rated me.
	Yeah, I would.
	Can we?
	You mentioned Like related to looks, you have a more curvy body.
	Can we break down the looks rating, your own looks rating, face, and then body?
	Yeah, I do have a nice, I mean, I don't think my face is pretty terrible.
	Like, I have a pretty nice face.
	I've always, if anything, had a nice face going for me more than anything else.
	So, I don't understand.
	Like, if you're not attracted to my face, that's fine.
	But it tends to be actually that, or like my breasts, or my waistline tends to be what men, most men prefer about me: my face or like my body type.
	Okay.
	So, if you had to rate your face and rate your body separately, what would you, what would the rating be?
	I wouldn't rate them differently.
	Well, you said your looks are eight, so is the face eight, body eight?
	I would still, yeah, they're both eights.
	Yeah, I but is it like body nine, face seven, or both eight?
	Both eight, both eight.
	Okay, what about you, Lola?
	Ten a hundred thousand men are in a room.
	You think the average rating you'll get is a ten?
	I'm gonna be, you're gonna hate my answer.
	Um, I truly do think that I have a very warped perception of how I look.
	I don't think that I really have any grasp of how other people view me, and I personally don't have any interest in knowing.
	So, when I say 10, that is because I think that any number could be equally as likely.
	I wouldn't be surprised if they all said one.
	I also wouldn't be surprised if they all said 10.
	I truly have very little idea of how I'm perceived, and I'm perfectly okay with that.
	So, if I'm gonna take a shot in the dark, I'm gonna guess the one that I do personally believe myself to be, even if I don't know other people's perspectives.
	So, you couldn't like you, you think one would be just as likely as five if we're talking like statistically.
	I guess five is the most likely because it'll average out to it.
	I don't know.
	Well, so you can't, it sounds like you can make a determination because you said, well, it could be 10, it could be one.
	I wouldn't be surprised if every person in that room said 10.
	I wouldn't be surprised if every person in that room said one.
	How?
	Wait, that doesn't even make sense.
	I think that my beauty standards are wildly different than everyone else I interact with.
	What are your beauty standards?
	You're gonna hate it.
	Okay, go ahead.
	I think that there are very few features that I would ever look at and find unattractive.
	I think it's more based on facial balance.
	I think that people can have features that don't work well together, but I don't think that there's any inherent feature that makes someone uglier.
	It just is if it doesn't work with their other features.
	If they're fat, that I don't think that I'm in my, I don't think that it's wrong if that affects other people's beauty standards.
	For me, I personally don't find it unattractive.
	How many fat people you've been with?
	Morbid Leopie's the truth.
	The amount of more Leopie's people I've ever known in my life are maybe two, and they are far out of my age range to date.
	You've never met anybody's fat in your own age range.
	Come on, genuinely, I do not.
	I can't think of people who have ever been close in my life.
	Yeah, just like decoding all the bullshit is going to take forever.
	It really, I mean, it really is.
	Mystery, I know you're listening.
	Mr. Enigmatic, just do the raid.
	Just do the raid over to whatever.
	Go to sleep.
	We have a debate tomorrow.
	Just do the fucking raid.
	I already know, you poor guy.
	Just go to sleep.
	Just go to sleep.
	Okay.
	What about you?
	100,000 women, what do you think they raid?
	In the West, probably a six.
	I'd go down.
	What about in Asia's a strong eight?
	But are you Korean, Japanese?
	Oh, I'm Taiwanese.
	Taiwanese.
	Okay.
	See, that makes more sense.
	That's more reasonable.
	That's rational.
	Okay.
	Kate?
	I would say if it's compared to other influencers, probably like an eight, maybe a seven, even.
	But if you compared me to just 100 average women in a Texan Walmart, 11.
	Okay.
	Yeah, the thing is, though, is that like it's hard to beat you up on a beauty standard because you're one of the most famous Twitch streamers, sex workers, whatever.
	Like the value, the net worth of value.
	It's very difficult to be like, oh, $30 million fucking dollars worth of men seem to uphold that as a beauty standard.
	So it's really hard to disagree with that, but I mean, man.
	Yeah.
	Some of these answers were really fucking bad.
	What about you?
	I think 100 men would rate me.
	100,000.
	100,000 men would rate me like either a six or a seven, and I'll say six.
	Wow, I'm okay.
	There are some little high estimates, I think.
	I guess my question, why don't average-looking women just say they're average-looking?
	I'm average.
	You know, they say, you're an average-looking woman.
	I'm average.
	Why can't women say that?
	I think they perceive their value too much from society as being attractive, one.
	And the other one is nowadays, but especially with social media, they are gaslit to believe they're more attractive than they are by desperate coomers in their comments or DMs.
	Sure.
	And, you know, there's this concept of Dunning-Kruger.
	It typically applies more so to people's self-assessment of their own intelligence.
	So people typically, as you tend to get a bit more stupider, stupider.
	Stupider.
	As you get stupider.
	Girls go to Jupiter.
	Jupiter.
	You tend to start to overestimate your own intelligence.
	And I actually think this is somewhat related also to attractiveness.
	I think people have a tendency to overestimate their own attractiveness in the same sort of way that the sort of cognitive bias that is observed with the Dunning-Kruger effect as it relates to intelligence.
	But I guess to the 10, the 8, the 9, the 9.
	Well, you gave a troll answer.
	What if we, instead of using a number, if we could use an adjective?
	Do you think you are beautiful?
	Yes.
	Do you think you are beautiful?
	Absolutely.
	Do you think you're beautiful?
	Yes.
	Absolutely.
	Okay.
	Are you gorgeous?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Are you stunning?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Not every day.
	Okay, sure.
	Okay, and I have one more.
	Are you coping?
	I don't care if I'm pretty.
	No, the answer.
	Are you coping?
	No, there's nothing wrong with you.
	Can you elaborate what you mean by that?
	You don't know what coping is?
	Well, like, I know what coping mechanisms are.
	I just don't know what you mean by like that in comparison to this statement is all.
	Oh, well, I mean, that sounds like cope.
	Are you coping?
	I don't think so.
	Are you coping?
	I don't think so.
	Okay.
	I have a different metric.
	I was thinking about this the entire plane ride down.
	Like, how can I rephrase this question?
	And I think I have the best fucking way to phrase this.
	So I'm going to try it this way.
	So have you ever heard the like, wouldn't look twice at her?
	Who's ever heard that?
	Anybody?
	Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So I say if a guy would look twice, you're a two.
	So every time he would look, right, that ups your score, right?
	So that's what I think.
	So based on that, how many times, if a guy was passing by, would he look, look, look?
	That's not fair because how many times does Gorlock get re-looked at, you know?
	Is that why she's a 10?
	Well, hang on.
	I think that people purposely try to look away from Gorlock.
	That's what I think.
	They like wouldn't look twice, literally as Gorlock.
	You look and they go, oh my God, I don't ever want to look again.
	So that's my rebuttal.
	So based on, based on 1 to 10, based on that criteria, what's your number?
	I was just going to say, I don't look at someone, I perceive a 10 out of 10 10 times.
	What's your number?
	Higher than 10, they won't stop looking sometimes.
	5, 6.
	10.
	Women look at you six times?
	They're like, well, dang.
	Well, it depends.
	You're saying like that?
	Yeah.
	That's beautiful, though.
	That's what that looks like when they're like, they just can't keep their eyes off you, right?
	Okay, how about when I first met you?
	Sure, okay.
	How would you have rated yourself then?
	Probably eight, nine.
	Yeah, okay.
	All right.
	Yeah, I'm not saying they're spastic.
	I'm just saying, like, they can't keep their eyes off.
	They just keep looking, you know?
	Like, all right.
	Ten.
	I'd still say, but I can't say seven, but I would probably pick that.
	I'd drop it down.
	But I would give myself about an eight still just because, regardless of what you think, in Chicago, I'm an attractive woman there, okay?
	And it's not about, listen, harmonious.
	Nobody's saying any woman here is not attractive.
	That's not what's being stated.
	Not at all.
	I'm not saying, like, I've watched this show enough to know that, like, I would never say I'm a 10 because I'm not an Angelina Jolie.
	I'm not a Carrie Broadshaw from Sexuality.
	Well, she's not a 10.
	Okay, let's not.
	Well, but see, that's a subjective thing because in my mind, I think Carrie Bradshaw is a fucking, excuse my language, a smoke show.
	I think she's a 10.
	She's incredible looking at sex in the city.
	Yeah, and I don't have that kind of fashion.
	Her curls?
	Her curls?
	I would kill to have curls like her.
	She is gorgeous.
	Do you agree with me that Sarah Jessica Parker is ugly as shit, though?
	Calling.
	You have all these gorgeous Callie names.
	Like, hey, would you agree that Sarah Jessica Parker is fucking objectively ugly?
	No, I think she's gorgeous.
	She's not ugly, Andrew.
	She's fucking ugly.
	That chick is an Ugo.
	No, she was always an Ugo.
	But she's like a six.
	No way.
	Bro. Carrie Bradshaw?
	I'm being nice.
	Sarah Jessica Parker.
	Sarah.
	That's good.
	Yeah, yeah.
	See, he looked up the image.
	He knows.
	Show the image of Sarah Jessica Parker.
	Jesse Rays is a 10, so don't get that.
	Oh, it's so bad.
	Well, so she's like in her 50s or some shit.
	No, I mean, in her prime, she was Ugo.
	No, she's not an ugly woman.
	She was an ugly woman.
	She's not an ugly woman.
	She's like average-ish-looking.
	She has the nose of the wicked witch of the west, bro.
	Carrie Bradshaw?
	Sarah Jessica Parker?
	Yeah, the chick would suck all the oxygen out of the room by sitting in it.
	She's so bad.
	People pay to have a nose like that.
	I don't know.
	Maybe it's just that people find different things attractive.
	Could that be it?
	I don't know who we're talking about.
	Who's this woman?
	Don't worry about it.
	Don't worry about it.
	I just, again, my question is, why can't just average-looking women just say that they're average-looking?
	Because average doesn't mean anything in this context.
	It does.
	No.
	Yes, it's a good idea.
	Okay, if you want to round up 100,000 men and have them rate us, then sure we can find an average.
	But other than that, we're guessing.
	If we actually did the experiment where we had 100 or 1,000 men in a room and they were being reasonable with their rate, you know, they weren't being fucking dickheads, giving you a one or whatever.
	Would you accept their, like, would you change your own rating?
	Would you accept their rating of you?
	Of my own perception of myself?
	No.
	But if you asked me the question, like, if 100,000 men were in a room and rated you, and then we actually did that, yeah, I would accept that as the answer to that question.
	Would it influence your own self-perception?
	No.
	To have that many people arrive at an average?
	No.
	Okay, all right.
	That's interesting.
	I'm just curious for, I guess, these fucking stunners right here, these full.
	I mean, hold on, really quick.
	Stunning.
	Really quick, rate me.
	And I won't be offended.
	You can, just my looks, though.
	Just my looks.
	Right, man.
	Two.
	Not you, Andrew.
	Six.
	Okay.
	Four.
	Four.
	I'd give you a six or seven.
	Six or seven.
	Six.
	Six.
	So just to be clear, y'all, I would, y'all would be settling for me.
	Like, you would be doing me, you would be doing me a favor.
	Just to be clear, you'd be doing me a favor.
	Don't like, I mean, on my level of like what I would find attractive in a man and rate you, I still like, for me personally, average is like five to eight.
	Just because I gave myself an eight doesn't mean that I don't think that's like an average rating.
	There's like, you know, it's not like mid-range.
	I don't think like I'm as beautiful as she is, but also I don't think her beauty takes like away from mine.
	You know what I mean?
	And for you, it's like you are still an attractive person and I wouldn't.
	I understand.
	I don't think you're like hair and shit.
	You got a thick beard.
	Like most men don't even have hair.
	Like you're above average.
	Can I ask you a question though?
	Yeah, of course.
	Can you describe what an ugly woman looks like?
	I don't really know how to describe that because I don't believe there's things that you can.
	Could you describe what an ugly woman looks like?
	Not off the top of my head.
	Could you describe what an ugly woman looks like?
	I could.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Well, someone mentioned like someone mentioned like imbalanced features.
	That is like biologically, you know, unattractive to have very imbalanced features.
	Probably like dull skin looks like she doesn't take care of herself.
	I think that I was just going to say obesity is unattractive.
	For me, a big thing is you can, you mentioned this earlier.
	You can tell someone's things that they care about about themselves by the way that they take care of themselves.
	Oh my God, no, dude.
	What are you doing?
	Oh, no.
	Holy fuck, what are you fucking doing?
	I'm sorry, I messed this up.
	Bro.
	How do I stream back?
	All right.
	Oof.
	So back to this.
	Let me sit.
	Let me sit.
	Back to this.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I think imbalanced features and signs that someone doesn't take care of themselves from the inside.
	Yeah.
	Like, for instance, things going against me.
	Old.
	Got a gut.
	Don't really work out too much.
	I do now, but not as much as I should.
	I smoke.
	All those things would be signs of unattractiveness.
	Makes sense, right?
	I mean, I like nicotine too, but yes.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Well, nicotine is different than smoking.
	That's true.
	Yeah, yeah.
	What's that?
	I smoke a little bit.
	You smoke too, okay?
	I quit the vapes, but I smoke.
	Yeah, but you get the point, right?
	Like, it makes sense to me.
	So using those standards, are you able to apply those standards to the women who are sitting next to you and say that you disagree with their rating of themselves?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And do you?
	I'm not going to do it.
	I know.
	I know.
	I'm not asking you to.
	I know that we're in the box of be nice.
	And I'm just saying.
	This is purely like without knowing personally.
	Look, I get it.
	I'm not trying to get you in the box if you're mean.
	I'm not trying to.
	I'm just trying to demonstrate that, like, even amongst yourselves, you don't even agree with the ratings of the people who are saying the ratings.
	Like, in your head, in your head, as the ratings are going on, just raise your hand.
	And if I'm full of it, go ahead.
	You don't have to raise your hand.
	But when a woman gave a rating based on what they think society would rate her as, right?
	Raise your hand if you disagreed with any of them.
	Are you asking everyone?
	Everyone.
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, it makes me think that there might be a wee bit of delusion going on.
	That's all I'm saying.
	That's all I'm saying.
	My only disagreement was, though, just hers because I don't think she's the one.
	I mean, it's like, just feel like I just don't think she should be giving herself that.
	Well, that's the distinction between humility.
	That's like the only one.
	Other than that, I think everybody was really on point with how they're.
	I mean, I think she's Jesse Ray's twin.
	Like, and I think Jesse Ray's is gorgeous.
	She's a singer.
	And I think she literally looks exactly like she could be Jesse Reyes' twin.
	And she's like a really.
	Can you tell me a famous person who's a 10 that you think?
	A famous woman who you think is a 10?
	Into the mic, please.
	I'm sorry.
	Give me.
	I'm really trying to recall names.
	Do you tell me a famous person who you think is a nine?
	A woman.
	Is Megan Fox a nine?
	Sure, she's a 10.
	Okay.
	So you're one point down from Megan Fox.
	I've just been in enough experience that that's just been something that has been when you say men break their necks.
	Like the factor of how many times they look at you, that gives you your rating.
	I've been in experiences.
	I was just in a club the other night where we had to ask a guy to stop looking at me.
	Yeah, we did.
	And I'm sorry that you don't believe that that's my experience.
	No, I think I muddied the water, Andrew.
	That thing.
	Now she's going to use this one time.
	One time.
	No, it's not one time.
	It's multiple.
	You can't conflate sexual attention.
	You cannot conflate intense sexual attention from, frankly, a small proportion of men and then map that on to what that all men are going to put you in some category of being amongst like basically, model tier level looks, super model tier.
	Looks like he's right.
	Like I dismiss what I asked.
	Right, I always try different things like, I'm always trying different questions, I'm always trying different methods to try to like, draw the truth out of people, and it's just how my mind works, right?
	So yeah, ignore the uh, the double take.
	I thought it was clever, but you're right, it did.
	It did just muddy the water.
	Well, and I guess, just because a guy, by the way, if guys, a guy calls you beautiful or whatever, that doesn't mean like you're in the same way that like, if your mom yeah, they want to, they want to fuck right, like your mom's like oh, my god, you're so handsome, you're so beautiful, like that doesn't mean you say my mom fucking lies to me.
	Yeah yes yes, it just fucking hurt my feelings Brian, she just told me I was handsome today.
	So, who's a good boy?
	You're a very handsome boy.
	Is he lying?
	Yes.
	Fuck.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But, again, can you think of a female celebrity who you think is a nine?
	I'm just trying to think.
	How about a male celebrity who's a nine?
	Um, nine out of ten, nine out of ten.
	Male celebrity, male celebrity, I don't know.
	I would say maybe like Glenn Powell, um anybody else who the um?
	Ryan Gosling?
	Um, I see, Glenn Powell, Ryan Gosling, another nine.
	Um, you know what?
	Ryan Gosling's perfect.
	So just to be clear, your self-assessment of your own physical attractiveness puts you on equival.
	Obviously he's a male.
	There's difference.
	But Glenn wait nick, google Glenn Powell image.
	Search it please.
	Your, Your league is Ryan Gosling and Glenn Powell.
	You can just stare at me or you can.
	No, I mean.
	That's your league?
	I guess I've dated men that are as attractive as them.
	When you say dated, what do you mean dated?
	Like a long-term relationship with a man that was as attractive as those men.
	You dated men who were just as attractive as Ryan Gosling.
	Yes, I am.
	And Glenn Powell, Nick, do you have a photo of Glenn Powell?
	So, and also like the body too, like the that physically fit, like top 1% male.
	Yes, I have dated men like that.
	I don't.
	I'm not trying to be rude.
	Like, I'm, look, I'm just, I'm aware.
	I'm overweight right now.
	I'm chubby.
	My dear, you're overweight.
	I'm aware of that.
	How could you be a nine?
	Because I'm not always overweight.
	Just because I'm you're currently overweight.
	You said I'm currently a nine.
	Okay.
	Well, I understand.
	But how are you a nine?
	I understand.
	When I said after, that was my own belief in my, what I, how I see myself, whenever we went to the point of if it was 100,000 men voting me, I said a six.
	I'm sorry.
	I also would like to jump in.
	I want to say, and I, again, I don't know how to word these in ways that don't seem personal.
	I would argue you're more attractive than Glenn Powell and less attractive than Ryan Reynolds or Ryan Gosling, right?
	Well, my point is more attractive than Glenn Powell, yes.
	Genuinely, 100% IPI, promise you.
	Now, what I'm saying here is I wouldn't rate both of them at other numbers than nines, right?
	And that's not relevant to the conversation, but she rated them both at nine.
	All of our standards are different.
	We're all looking at the same pictures and seeing different things.
	Like, I personally don't think that Glenn Powell's body is the most attractive body that I can't.
	Give me the nine.
	I didn't say it was the most attractive.
	I'll tell you what.
	I'll just grant this for a second.
	Who's the nine for you?
	Of men?
	That we can pull up.
	I do think that Ryan Gosling does land at a nine.
	What about Glenn Powell?
	Glenn Powell, I would say, probably around six.
	Okay, now he wants to power a five.
	Now give us a new name that's not either of them that you would rate a nine.
	That I would rate a nine?
	Could be a singer.
	It could be whoever.
	Harry Styles, I guess.
	Harry Styles.
	I find him to be very attractive.
	Glenn Powell.
	This has been an argument with my friends for a long time.
	I think Glenn Powell is not very attractive.
	I can say that he's societally very attractive, but he's not attractive to me.
	And the celebrity I would think of would probably not be attractive to other people, like my ideal.
	Yeah, I mean, many one, Santa.
	Well, you can't see him right now, but like he's probably not everyone's 10.
	This is just like, I do genuinely wholeheartedly believe she is out of Glenn Powell's league.
	Makes sense.
	She would be sed link for Glenn Powell.
	I don't, well, looks-wise, yes.
	So what about body?
	Just strictly body.
	So, okay, maybe you're doing a face assessment.
	So, again, I'm not trying to be insulted.
	Like, I'm fucking overweight.
	I'm a fatty.
	I get it.
	She's overweight.
	At least in the photos that we saw of Glenn Powell, the guy's like top 1% in terms of body.
	I personally don't find his body type very physically attractive, but that's just a me thing.
	He's physically fit.
	Yeah, I think that being fit is a good thing.
	Yeah, but I don't think that that...
	What constitutes male attractiveness as it relates to body?
	Well, can you pull up the pictures again and I can really reevaluate?
	Because I think too much muscle definition isn't really my thing personally.
	He's not a bodybuilder.
	Maybe I didn't take a very good look at it.
	I don't look up photos of him on my spare time.
	You pulled it up.
	There was a shirtless picture of him chiseled as fuck.
	What constitutes like a attractive male body to you?
	Like more towards fat versus fit?
	I tend to lean toward leaner.
	I do, I find muscle attractive.
	I think too much muscle is unattractive.
	I think that these are all Glenn Powell features.
	Can you?
	I'm sorry.
	I would love for you to pull him back up.
	I got a tiny glimpse at the shirtless photo.
	You know what's actually interesting?
	When we make this discussion about body, you know, we're talking objective-subjective or universal.
	You know, there's really compelling arguments as to the subjectivity of like facial attractiveness.
	That's much more nuanced, and there's much more cultural differences.
	However, when it comes to assessments, at least of male peak physical attractiveness as assessed by women, and again, look, I don't, I actually think women prefer the like super bodybuilder, like maybe for fitness girls, they like the like full-on, super gigantic bodybuilder types.
	Not all of them, not all of them, not all of them.
	I think it's there's like very clear universality.
	Women will continually move towards physical fitness as it relates to body attractiveness.
	So, this doesn't mean like super giant, but if he's got a certain degree of muscle definition and fitness, that's I think it tells you about abilities and like where your discipline lies.
	Like it tells you more about their mind when you can see how someone takes care of themselves.
	I would argue in extreme cases it does.
	Like if someone you know who looks like you, I can make assumptions about your lifestyle, right?
	But I do definitely think that people can have very similar lifestyles and still look relatively different.
	Again, the extremes obviously do show things about yourself.
	They're not really going to be looking relatively different if one's in the gym every two days and the other one's not.
	Yeah, that's the extreme.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	That's not the extreme.
	I do think that we're talking about, we're talking about people who just have like they're basically taking care of themselves and then those who aren't.
	And it is the case that you can have what's called skinny fat.
	We all know exactly what fucking skinny fat is.
	Okay.
	There's no muscle tone.
	There's no nothing, right?
	They're skinny, but yeah, it's squishy.
	And so the thing is, is like it is the case objectively.
	If you have women rate men, right?
	Especially on body type.
	They all, Brian's absolutely right about this.
	And there's actual data on this from dating apps.
	If the man is moved towards the lean side, not necessarily the bodybuilder, he's right about that too.
	They don't have to be huge.
	But if they move towards the lean side, especially if they have a flat stomach and they have good muscle tone, there's almost universal agreement, then that's better than dad bod.
	Sure.
	Yeah, I mean, like, there are general preferences.
	I didn't argue that.
	But I mean, okay, I have a question for you, and like in a very genuine sense.
	Do you think that you could take a good guess at how often I am in the gym?
	And I promise you, I won't be offended.
	Not that often.
	At least not if you're doing strength training.
	Not that often.
	Not if I'm doing strength training?
	Do you mean if my goal is to gain muscle, I'm not in the gym very often?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Would you like to know if you're right?
	Yeah.
	I wouldn't say so.
	Well, you wouldn't say so to any truth, though.
	When you say I wouldn't say so, can I just ask you this?
	Yes.
	How many fucking times are you in the gym doing strength training?
	Doing strength training?
	As of the last two weeks, not so much.
	I've been working 40 hours a day.
	However, you could have just said, Andrew.
	No, no, no, but I am going to argue.
	Andrew, you know, I'm going to argue.
	I am going to argue with you that in the past two weeks, my body has not changed significantly.
	That's true.
	Which makes me think before those two weeks.
	I would love to finish what I was saying.
	It would be really great.
	Yeah, I know you wouldn't have to do that.
	I need some concessions.
	So here's the conversation we're going to have.
	Over the summer.
	I can't wait to hear the conversation we're going to have.
	For three months consecutively, I was in the gym at least every other day.
	Genuinely without any faults.
	I looked the exact same as I do now.
	What does that mean?
	Doing what?
	Doesn't mean anything.
	So when you do that, it depends on the cardiac day.
	Do we want to talk about my push days, my pull days, my leg days, or my cardio days?
	Which one?
	Let's talk about your strength days.
	Which is three of the four categories.
	Yes, and how often were you in there doing strength training?
	Three days out of a week.
	And what did that look like?
	I mean, my leg days, I was doing the leg presses.
	I don't know the names of the machine that I can describe.
	You don't know the names.
	Don't take your gym life real serious.
	You're wearing cargo pants, and we've seen the upper half of your body.
	I'm asking the question of Andrew, do you think I work out?
	First off, women don't put on upper body musculature.
	That's my point.
	You can't tell.
	Yeah, but men don't give a fuck about your arm.
	No, I'm not claiming that it looks better or worse.
	I'm claiming that it's not representative of lifestyle.
	I feel like I can tell.
	Actually, I do feel like I can kind of tell if a woman is doing strength training or not by definition.
	And yeah, I don't think you are.
	Or if you are not.
	I think that during the times in my life when I was doing significantly more strength training than I am now, and I'm not saying that I was ever buff.
	I wasn't.
	I'm not even talking about buff.
	I'm talking about shape.
	There's body shapes.
	There were times in my life that I genuinely was significantly more active than I am now.
	I was genuinely strength training.
	I was dieted.
	I was paying attention to protein.
	Who does that?
	Anyways, I looked the same as I do now.
	Don't map on men's.
	You're doing this thing that's really common.
	Women think about the things that they're attracted to in men, and then they map that on to what they think men are attracted to.
	So you're saying, well, I'm in the gym and I'm doing push and pull and I'm working your upper body.
	Men don't give a fuck about like upper body muscle definition.
	I don't care.
	It's not an attraction trigger for men.
	I don't care.
	We're talking about looks.
	No, the argument was whether or not looks are representative of lifestyle.
	I'm not arguing whether or not it's attractive.
	I think they are.
	I don't care about that.
	Hang on, if they're not, then what is your first assumption when you see someone who's fat?
	Genuinely, unless it is an extreme length, I do not make assumptions.
	When I mean fat, I don't mean you got a gut.
	I mean you're fat.
	If it is to an extreme length, yeah, you can make these assumptions.
	They're like 40 pounds overweight, 30 pounds overweight.
	They're not 100 pounds overweight.
	I don't actually know pre-assumptions.
	No.
	I don't really know what 40 pounds looks like in practice.
	I can't picture that.
	I think women need to wake up.
	Women need to wake up.
	Is he 40 pounds overweight?
	Is that what you're trying to tell me?
	I'm 40 pounds overweight for sure.
	Okay, yeah.
	I should be 40 pounds less.
	Okay.
	Then I guess if someone's 40 pounds overweight, I would make a lifestyle judgment.
	Funny how that works.
	Well, I didn't make a claim before because I said I couldn't picture it.
	Now I can picture it so I can make sure that.
	I keep picturing it.
	Love it.
	I think women need a wake-up call and realize that they're not nearly as attractive as they think they are.
	As they think they are, Nick, you'll pull up the Discord here in just a moment.
	I also think if we lined up every woman on earth and put her next to her male looks equivalent, 99% of women would be completely mortified.
	I think there's no makeup, especially the average woman doesn't realize she's average.
	Thus, the average woman does not want to date the average man, even though that is her lead.
	Can I give a great example of this?
	Okay, so, and again, none of this is designed to be mean.
	All we're trying to do is talk about when it comes to dating or when it comes to relationships, that people often have, especially women, a much greater kind of idea about themselves than they should.
	And that's just because all women get male attention all the time.
	And it doesn't really matter how fucking ugly they are or how fat they are.
	They get male attention.
	They do.
	So the thing is, is like, I know what my DMs look like.
	I don't even want to know what her DMs look like.
	Okay.
	But I can fucking tell you that she has three secretaries.
	Okay.
	So the thing is, is like, and you probably need a secretary.
	And all of you probably need a secretary to go through all of your DMs, right?
	That's how it works.
	Not a secretary, but like, yeah, there's like a lot of people.
	Yeah, there's a fucking lot, okay?
	But that's not you.
	That's every fucking woman.
	And it's not every.
	Not every woman has.
	No, it's every woman.
	I'm telling you.
	Everyone who posts actively as a person who's not a person who's not.
	Yes, if you pass, if you're posting, is it a guess over here?
	She literally has three people.
	Yeah, it was a guess.
	Okay.
	I'm just basing it on popularity, right?
	Versus, yeah, I'm pretty good at it at this point.
	So don't you think more?
	Hang on, hang on.
	Let me finish what I'm saying.
	Go ahead.
	To the viewer out there who's watching this right now, I'm going to tell you a bunch of things that they think that aren't fucking true at all.
	Okay.
	None of you look on that screen like you look when I'm looking at you.
	None of you.
	None of you look anything like that.
	There's enhancement due to the lighting, due to the makeup, due to everything that makes you very photogenic above and beyond what you actually look like in person.
	Now, I know how that sounds, but hang on.
	Let me finish.
	Let me finish.
	None of you, right?
	I, though, I actually do look about the same, right?
	Whether you're looking at me there or here, I look about the same.
	Brian?
	I think you look better in person.
	Maybe.
	I might actually look better here.
	I feel like I might look better in person.
	But the thing is, is like, I'm telling you, the makeup and everything else does a huge number.
	And then there's the clothing.
	So I wear what's comfortable, right?
	Not what makes me look great.
	I wear what's comfortable.
	Women, they tend to wear and they spend hours making sure that their clothing presents them in the best light possible.
	Okay.
	Let me ask you this.
	And I'm going to hope to God you guys tell me the truth.
	But I'm going to hope.
	How long did it take you to pick your outfit for today's show?
	10 minutes.
	Okay.
	That might be true.
	You?
	10 minutes, but it took longer to actually make it wearable because it was really the fact.
	How much time did you spend on your makeup?
	20.
	20.
	Nope.
	Groups.
	Oh, gosh.
	God damn.
	I'm so sorry.
	It was like trying to creep through a tiny little space.
	And then, and then how much time did you spend on your makeup?
	Probably about 40 minutes.
	Don't toss that.
	How much time did you spend on your makeup?
	15 or 15 on picking the suit after the color recommendation.
	How much time did you spend on your makeup?
	I'm not wearing makeup.
	Yeah, none.
	I promise you I'm not.
	Okay.
	And then clothes you just threw on whatever?
	I picked a shirt out of the back of my car so I wouldn't have to stop home.
	Okay.
	I just have mascara on and like lip gloss.
	Like literally, I don't wear makeup at all.
	Got it.
	And then he didn't make any selection for clothing.
	This I picked out sooner.
	I went through a few outfits, but I wanted to be a little more modest.
	And again, I have self-harm scars, so I was in between on, like, I just wanted to.
	How much time?
	Well, I live in Chicago, so I packed my outfit like two weeks ago.
	How much time did you spend picking it, though?
	Probably like 30 minutes to an hour because I again went through a few outfits.
	I spent like 40 minutes on my makeup and like less than five on picking out my outfit, which is unusual.
	I usually am more picky with what I wear, but I was running out the door.
	Yeah, and then over here.
	10 minutes on my makeup, and probably I went through a few different outfit choices in my head over the past few days contemplating, but this morning I wanted to go with something that was comfortable, 10-minute choice.
	And then here.
	No makeup, and my boyfriend chose my dress.
	Okay, got it.
	The point is, though, is like I spent exactly 30 seconds picking my fucking outfit and then ran out the door and came over here.
	Right.
	I combed my hair.
	That was it.
	It took about one minute.
	Right.
	The distinction is, is that I guess what I'm trying to demonstrate is that it's not just the idea that everything is photogenic and enhanced and there's makeup involved and there's outfit selection involved.
	There's also augmentation that's usually involved.
	Women have all sorts of augmentations that they give themselves constantly: boob enhancements, butt enhancements, liposuction, all kinds of shit, right?
	Men don't do any of that.
	And I feel like if none of that is present to equalize, right?
	That generally, I actually don't know that women in modernity are the fairer sex.
	And I don't, I'm not actually confident that it is the case that this kind of like overwhelming sense that they have that they're just gorgeous, all of them seem to think so, is justified or founded.
	I mean, a woman can feel like fleeing.
	Okay.
	I think most women, Andrew, related, related to dating, this assessment, right?
	Most women, I think, are trying to date well above what their looks, their prospects, and their personalities warrant.
	If we have a 31-year-old, and again, I'm not saying this to be mean.
	I'm just, it's the truth.
	We have a 31-year-old woman who's overweight who thinks her league is Ryan Gosling.
	I'm surprised nobody else here finds that insane.
	I'm not even talking about his status.
	I'm not talking about his personality.
	I'm not talking about his fame.
	Just on his looks, the guy is physically fit.
	The guy's physically fit.
	Just on that basis alone, you should be like, I'm overweight.
	There's no way I'm in Ryan Gosling's league.
	But even if we're looking at totality, we're looking at you combine body with facial attractiveness.
	That's crazy to me.
	And then there's that, I forgot that other guy, Drew, or whatever the fuck.
	But Brian, is that because someone who would look like a Ryan Gosling would have sex with him?
	Isn't that what?
	Isn't that why the sense comes in of like they can women can have sex with a guy that looks like Ryan Gosling, even if Ryan Gosling's way out of their league, but they can't net him?
	Confirmation bias.
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, you shouldn't confuse sexual, like sexual interest with relationship interest.
	Like just because he'll dick you down doesn't mean he's going to wipe you up.
	Because Ryan Gosling's there and you're there.
	And that's good enough.
	So it's like, right.
	But then, like, you're also equating some value in there when you say relationship because there's probably some guy who's probably retarded, not very bright, not very good family who looks like him because all he knows is brawn and workout and has all his bro science mechanics who probably would wipe a girl up like that.
	It's possible.
	Yeah.
	But it's not, it's not, it's not a lot of people.
	It's not the average, though, for sure.
	It's not the like, it's not likely.
	Wait, wait, I have something to say because earlier you were talking about like how long women spend on like how they look.
	And like, this is a conversation I've had with Brian once, but like, don't men like spend a lot of time in the gym also to be perceived as more attractive?
	Well, or like do stereo.
	The motivations, I'll agree with you that there's a big motivation for men to go to the gym so that they look good for the opposite sex.
	But what I found is when men start really persistently going to the gym, they actually start doing it after a while to beat themselves.
	They want to get to that next tier of I can, oh man, I got on the hundreds on the barbells from the 90s, right?
	They actually start looking at it for a different form of motivation once they hit a peak or once they hit like a certain level where they're like, okay, I look good, but I'm going to keep going because I want to challenge myself.
	And they don't do the augmentations.
	Like there's no, they don't, where are all the men with the nose jobs?
	Where are all the men with the butt padding?
	They're just nowhere.
	They don't do all the augmentations.
	The best that you get out of a man is a beard.
	I also just want to say, and you're probably going to disagree with this, but like I can give a personal example.
	I started putting effort into my appearance years ago when I was super insecure because I wanted to be perceived by other people a certain way.
	And I started to detach from that.
	And now, I mean, again, men won't believe this, but like when I put effort into my appearance, I want to feel good about how I look.
	And it's not a good idea.
	I understand.
	Look, look, I don't dispute that that's the case, okay?
	I'm just saying you have some advantages right now that you're not going to have in 20 years.
	The biggest advantage is that you're fucking 18, right?
	It's a huge advantage.
	You don't have all the same worries that women who are 20 years your senior have, right?
	And they have a lot of worries.
	Their metabolism begins to slow down.
	It becomes much more difficult for them to bounce back from even basic things like a night out drinking with the friends, right?
	Stuff like that.
	Like you have every advantage right now.
	You can go pound all the fucking booze with the girlfriends all night long, wake up the next day, your hangover's gone by 12 o'clock.
	Wait, I get really hungover.
	By 12 o'clock, it's gone.
	You go and you eat the fucking breakfast at the hangover shack or whatever, and you're basically fine in a day, right?
	But again, 20 years your senior, not the case.
	Burning off fat, not easy.
	Like you're a bodybuilder.
	Every year, it's just a little bit fucking hard or a lot harder than the year before, right?
	Yeah, I mean.
	Sorry.
	I mean, there's things that we do very specifically with diet nutrition and other compounds that it doesn't make it easy to do.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you gotta work hard and understand how it works, but yeah, it's a science.
	I mean, you have to look at blood work, even someone totally natural.
	You have to look at blood.
	But as you age, it gets more difficult, right?
	Yeah, you have to look at your hormones.
	Yeah, it gets more difficult.
	And it's like, so you have some advantages that people, that, that women aren't going to have, you know, 20 years your senior.
	And this is the point, right?
	This is the entire point: the fact that women will assign themselves at 35 the same value and beauty standards that you have right now at 18 is what Brian's alluding to.
	He's like, just how?
	How do we get to that?
	How do we get to this form of self-delusion?
	The way I see it is like you can acknowledge that society or like 100,000 men are going to view you a certain way and still really like how you look and not in a way that's deluded.
	You can genuinely be comfortable and secure and like look the way you want to.
	Like again, for my personal example, I gave a number like that society would assign me, but like I wouldn't want to look like society's 10.
	Like I like it's interesting because the beauty choices that you make though tend to line up interestingly enough.
	They tend to line up interestingly enough with societal standards for beauty, don't they?
	For instance, I can give you an example.
	You have long hair.
	Because I also like how long hair looks.
	Sure.
	But isn't it convenient that also men like how long hair looks?
	And perhaps you do makeup to make your eyes look bigger.
	Isn't it convenient that men also like when women's eyes look it's like almost everything you would do to make yourself look more attractive to yourself happens to also be things that the opposite sex finds attractive.
	You know what's interesting about that is like a lot of men actually don't like the fact that I wear makeup and they find that makes me like less attractive because they like natural women.
	A lot?
	Or like a lot of men just a lot?
	A lot of men prefer natural.
	Yeah.
	Who's turned you down for a date because they're like too much makeup?
	Well, I don't ask for to go on dates.
	I know.
	Who's ever?
	Yeah, but men aren't avoiding you because you have too much makeup on.
	What I'm saying is.
	Yeah, hang on.
	Are men avoiding you because you have too much makeup on?
	No.
	No.
	But I'm sure there's men out there who would not like to do it.
	So really quick on this.
	You said that, well, what's wrong with viewing yourself in this confident way?
	What's wrong with viewing yourself as a 10.
	Except the delusion.
	Hold on, hold on.
	Hold on.
	God damn.
	Holy shit.
	Quiet.
	Go ahead.
	In order for there to be a 10, does there have to be a 9?
	Yeah, I mean, I would.
	Does there need to be an 8?
	Does there need to be a 7?
	Does there mean 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1?
	So this idea that, but it's how I feel about myself, that's great.
	But when we're using the 10.
	I wouldn't use a scale in that context.
	Right, but if we're using the 10 metric, if you say you're a 10, that would imply somewhere out there exists a 1, exists a 2, exists a 3, etc., etc.
	That's why I wouldn't use a scale in the context of like evaluating how you feel about yourself and not in society.
	What if we asked the question this way, just out of curiosity?
	If you had 100,000 men who were rating you and you average them and it was only three that you got three and it was not beautiful, beautiful, gorgeous, right?
	Would every woman here put themselves in the beautiful category?
	Out of just three.
	You just have three.
	You just have not beautiful, beautiful, and then gorgeous.
	That's it.
	Wouldn't you do not beautiful, average, and then gorgeous?
	Wouldn't that make more sense?
	Sure.
	Let's do four.
	Not beautiful, average, or beautiful, or gorgeous.
	Where do all of you fall there?
	Gorgeous.
	Average?
	I don't know.
	Average?
	Maybe.
	So does that seem like five?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	I already said, like, according to society.
	Yeah, that's all I'm saying.
	Yeah, I said that earlier.
	Does that change your guys's answers at all?
	No?
	Would you put yourself at gorgeous?
	Yes.
	Gorgeous?
	I'd say beautiful.
	Beautiful.
	I mean, okay, I have my own perception of myself.
	Sure.
	And then the perception of, you know, when I walk into a place, like I get, I am a spectacle.
	And I don't know if, I guess it's because my body, I don't.
	Well, it looks different.
	My friends tell me I'm pretty.
	You know, like.
	Sure.
	I've gotten gorgeous.
	I would call myself beautiful.
	Okay.
	You, same thing, like beautiful, gorgeous, right?
	I would say beautiful.
	Okay.
	So that's fair.
	The thing is about this, I guess maybe that drives me crazy because I've been on so many of these panels talking to different women about this.
	You know that guy, like the gym rat, or even he's not a gym rat.
	He's just like an arrogant fuck who's always in front of the mirror and he's always like fucking lifting and he's always primping and looking at himself and shit.
	Like just an egocentric fuck, right?
	Women seem like they hate that guy.
	And most women I talk to, they are that guy.
	They're doing the same shit.
	They're like in front of the fucking mirror and they're primping and they put on all the little makeup and they fucking, they do all the shit in order to give the best foot forward appearance possible.
	And it's like, is that ego?
	I hope that all men think they're beautiful.
	You know what?
	Here, we'll do something super simple here.
	Nick, pull up the Discord, please, and you're going to scroll up to right below the Evangeline Lily.
	Okay?
	The girl with the other girl outside.
	And we're going to look at all these photos.
	Because people say, you know, it's very, beauty is very subjective.
	Very subjective.
	Make it bigger if you can.
	I think if you click on it, you should.
	All right.
	And then can you mouse wheel, scroll up a little bit?
	There you go.
	Scroll down a little bit.
	We don't need all that palm.
	I'm just curious, like, which woman's more attractive?
	The one on the left.
	How about you?
	What do you think?
	I don't find either of them very attractive, but probably the left.
	Okay.
	I would say the left.
	I agree.
	Left.
	Yeah.
	Oh, okay.
	I mean, people often fight me on this one.
	I guess that's good.
	But I think if I show Every man on earth this picture?
	99.99999% of them would pick the woman on the left.
	Perhaps this would be a pleasure.
	I think 100%.
	Perhaps.
	Perhaps this wouldn't establish, from your guys' view, an objective component to beauty, but it would establish universal, a universal.
	So what are the things that we're at least as compared to another?
	Yeah, so that means there's some kind of standard there.
	What is it about the woman on the left where so many people can agree that she's more attractive?
	We have some more photos, though.
	Let's see the rest.
	For me, it's like her nose.
	Just the next one.
	We're just going to go next to next to next.
	We have Sidney Sweeney here.
	Which woman is more attractive?
	And by the way, we'll go ahead.
	Sidney Sweeney.
	Left or right?
	Left.
	Which one is more attractive?
	Left.
	It's left.
	Well, I feel weird asking it, dude.
	Or white, actually, that makes sense.
	That's not even a question.
	Left?
	Yeah.
	Just same for all you guys?
	I'm imposed.
	I'm imposed that.
	It's cultural, cultural, normal.
	Wait, so you agree?
	Tell me which culture.
	I rebel against.
	It's not.
	Yeah, which culture would prefer.
	I've been feeling like they have to be nice to everyone all the time or else God would like them in their place.
	I don't understand.
	Which culture?
	Which culture?
	Yeah, which culture would prefer the chick on the right?
	You said it's culturally different, and you said you agree.
	Which culture is the one on the right, the smoke show?
	like she's actually like a native american maybe even like um i i forget the alaskan like term So does that mean you have to be beautiful if you're of a certain ethnicity now?
	Well, I'm just curious if that would mean like if, from where?
	If we are from American standards, pressing upon people that this is what Hollywood's standard of beauty is?
	Wait, hold on.
	This doesn't even make sense.
	This is I can't hold on, I can you have a preference?
	Wait wait, I still have a preference I can.
	He's been too Americanized.
	Yeah, it's in the.
	I can look, I am white, I am white.
	I can look at a white woman and think she's ugly, and I can look at a Latina, a Black, an Asian woman and think she's beautiful.
	So this, I don't understand this idea.
	Surface level, interpretation of the comment.
	Ever I there can, there can be beauty's pretty surface level.
	It's on the surface, I understand, but it's it's still quite a complicated.
	I don't think it's that complicated.
	I'm sorry I'm not the one who used that wording.
	I guess I wouldn't 100% agree.
	There is like a yeah, a standpoint that I would come from there.
	But how about this one?
	Let's do the next one Nick, do you think that?
	Like, let's just say for a second, let's just say that you were you.
	You were like raised in the middle of the Amazon jungle okay where, like I don't know, chicks put rings on their neck and shit and like, extend their necks and the giraffneck thing.
	You know what I mean.
	This, this is all you had ever experienced.
	Okay, and one day those two women show up, which one do you think the tribal men would prefer to have sexual intercourse with?
	Just intuitively intuitively, they have about the same size neck.
	I don't think that we're intuitive, I don't think that we're born thinking that people who look like Sidney Sweeney.
	So I just want, I just want your official answer is you're not sure that they would prefer to sleep with Sidney Sweeney?
	Yes, that is my official answer.
	Okay let's, let's do the next one Nick yeah, I agree with you.
	Yeah because, because you're both, how about this one left or right?
	Which woman is more attractive?
	The right, pretty symmetrical.
	It sounds like you're going to say something.
	No, no, no.
	I mean, there's a very obvious answer, but what's the obvious answer?
	I think the woman on the right is more attractive.
	Yeah, so what were you going to say?
	Did I just earn that?
	You did.
	Guys, let her speak.
	No, it's all right.
	It's honestly, it's a discussion we already had when I was here last time, and I don't know how interesting it'll be.
	Well, just really quickly.
	I do find it interesting that it is very intentional that the attractive example is always a white woman.
	Just wait.
	We'll get to that.
	I get this criticism, but I understand what you're saying.
	So you're saying, well, Brian, hold on.
	It's unfair that you're being selective in your here.
	You're picking an ugly colored woman or woman of color.
	I don't know if that's offended, whatever.
	Versus like a beautiful white woman.
	That's like you're kind of being racist or whatever.
	Well, I'm not even saying that it's being racist, but I do definitely think that it goes to show that a lot of people do find white people more attractive.
	Well, unless.
	Well, if you have a different example, I will stand correct.
	Just really quick before we get into the next thing, everybody, was it the woman on the left or the right?
	Anybody, what do you think?
	I think we're, again, pressing our own normative, like white normative agendas, too.
	What does that mean?
	White normative?
	It sounds like childhood trauma to me.
	I'm not sure.
	It means that she thinks that it's culturally relative, and some cultures would actually find the woman on the left to be more attractive than the one on the right based on cultural standards.
	I mean, for example, I don't think women who wear makeup are particularly very pretty.
	I think they're just compensating for their own insecurities.
	But yeah, here.
	So you can't make a determination.
	pull up the photo again you can't make a determination that the woman i have an opinion but i think it's What's your opinion?
	I think it's neither here nor there, though.
	You were able to do what the other woman on the street is.
	Well, it's at least here or there.
	Oh, actually, I'm just saying that.
	If you called your husband, what would he say?
	He's the master.
	You have to defer to his opinion to the right.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I mean, he grew up in America.
	So what can you go back?
	So what's your, I guess, what's your criticism, though, about the quote, white normativity or whatever?
	What is that?
	Yeah, we're pressing our own standards of beauty, and this is what, this is the privilege we get being so media-centric in America that we can now determine what is beautiful.
	But consider when we're in the Renaissance, it's like fat people were actually looked up as like that's bullshit.
	What do you mean?
	Total bullshit.
	Well, there weren't very many fat people in the Renaissance.
	But they looked at beautiful nonetheless because the royals are the only ones who had pictures painted of them.
	And they were the ones who could afford to eat.
	Here, but just to be fair, because there's this criticism, O'Brien, you're comparing a beautiful white woman to whatever.
	Nick, let's go into the next.
	And I know this is AI, but I can sit here and say the black woman is clearly, it's AI, obviously, clearly more attractive than the white woman next.
	No, just go to it.
	Okay.
	Next.
	Make a smaller, please.
	Okay, the black woman is clearly, clearly more attractive.
	In my white, heteronormative, fucking bullshit, whatever society, white normativity.
	Yeah, the black woman is more beautiful than the white woman.
	What do you have to say to that?
	Unless you're breeding for big noses, perhaps, so you can smell better.
	You maybe don't know what to do.
	Okay, don't give me a troll answer.
	Don't give me a troll answer.
	Give me a real answer.
	I mean, obviously, I grew up in America.
	I'm going to think, right?
	By the way, pull it back up.
	You really are pressing me for an answer, but I think beauty is still subjective.
	Wait, but hold on, hold on.
	Is this my white normativity that is making me say that the black woman on the right is more attractive than the white woman on the left?
	Is that my whiteboard?
	I think that's your cultural upbringing.
	Yeah, I think that can easily change if this was more about having perhaps mountainous features resulted in me determining that the black woman maybe mountainous features will actually be better if you're even surviving pull up the next one, Nick.
	I can continue.
	Continue, go ahead.
	Well, I don't know if you're just giving me troll answers at this point.
	Hallie Berry, way more attractive than the white woman on the left.
	Let's see the next one.
	There's got to be a culture that loves the white woman on the left, though, right?
	She looks like she's missing gentle.
	Stacey Dash, a beautiful black woman, is more beautiful than that white woman.
	So this is, look, that.
	One has professional photography.
	The other one looks like it's snapshot from the 80s.
	We also, I guess.
	I'm not sure that you could professional that out.
	Here, just say maybe if she was sitting there, skip down to the guys.
	Maybe.
	Maybe.
	How about this?
	Let's go to guys.
	Jonah Hill.
	Or you know what?
	Just exile that entirely.
	A black man more attractive than a white man.
	Scroll down, though.
	Oh, Brad Pitt, I think he's more attractive than that Latino man.
	And then in this case, there's a white woman who's more attractive than a black woman.
	So, I mean, look.
	Congratulations.
	No.
	I find Jonah Hill more attractive.
	Because she told me to ran away from you.
	I knew it wasn't worth saying.
	You're such a coper.
	He's just copering.
	Jonah Hill is more attractive than Michael B. Jordan.
	I think in that specific photo, yes.
	So you're racist.
	That's insane.
	So you're just saying you're racist.
	I never claimed that Brian was racist.
	I did say, however, that he showed a tendency to find white women more attractive until the time of the year.
	It sounds like he was not financial.
	Yeah, now you're defined white man.
	No, no, no.
	But I think that many images back to back to back that are trying to prove that these white women are more attractive than like it would have been different if there was one photo of two white women.
	And then I pointed it out and you said, wait, no, I can give you these examples.
	So I stopped talking because I understand.
	Well, yeah, but I could find also like an ugly white woman and a beautiful white woman.
	Sure.
	Who do you think you have a better chance with?
	Jonah Hill or Michael?
	Realistically, neither.
	Okay, that's not the question.
	If you were going to decide that, say, you were in a room with them and you had to make a decision, but you knew they had to be.
	Had to be Jonah.
	You knew they had to make the answer.
	Yeah, of course, Jonah Hill.
	Well, because I know how society perceives them.
	I can understand that.
	So I know that Jonah Hill probably.
	Because he's fat.
	Yes, I understand.
	No, it's not per se.
	It's just how all societies would perceive it.
	All societal women would be like, oh, I have a way better chance with the fat guy.
	What I am saying is that I personally don't find it less attractive, but I agree with you that there is like a general consensus that most people would find that less attractive.
	I understand.
	Final thing here.
	I'm going to try to move this along.
	Do you think you'll be better looking in 10 years' time?
	If Jonah Hill were here, he would agree with me.
	I think women are most beautiful around 27, 28.
	Okay, what about in 20 years, 38?
	Then no.
	Kate, you're 31, better looking in 10 years' time, 41.
	No.
	And then, Kate, were you better looking at 21 10 years ago versus now?
	I don't know.
	I feel like he should answer that.
	Because my perception could be warped from the amount of time.
	You're so fucked, dude.
	You're so fucked right now.
	I can't wait.
	Scoot to the table a little bit.
	Don't lie, bro.
	Don't lie.
	I don't know if you're lying.
	So what with that?
	21 when you first met me?
	No, I'll be honest here.
	No, I definitely think.
	Well, so no, that's tough.
	Self-talk.
	25 better.
	That's fair.
	That's fair.
	Oh, boy.
	That's going to be a long time.
	I feel like you weaseled your way out of that.
	You know, I do.
	So I'm better than 21, though.
	Well, because when she was 21, she was extremely poor.
	Like, everything was from Walmart.
	Like, I'm not even exaggerating a little bit, right?
	Like, and she, you know, I would say she was when I was 21.
	Like I was very thin.
	Sure.
	Super thin.
	Okay.
	Better looking in, I guess.
	Actually, no.
	We can't let you get away.
	From your perspective, better looking at 21 or 31.
	Oh, I definitely think 31 than 21.
	Okay.
	For you, better.
	Do you think you'll be better looking in 10 years' time?
	Hopefully the same, but probably less.
	Probably the same.
	And then better looking now or better looking at 26?
	26.
	You're 20 better looking at 30?
	Yeah.
	40?
	Yes.
	50?
	Yes.
	60?
	Yes.
	70?
	Yes.
	80?
	Yes.
	Well, you look better in your casket.
	Real fine.
	100?
	No, I'm serious.
	Would you, if after you were prepared by the- Like if I were a skeleton?
	No, in your casket, after the- So I'm already, I'm dead.
	dead but they've gone ahead and they've like you know they've done what undertakers do to make your cheeks rosy and things like that you're gonna be are you gonna look better then than you do right now Maybe if they do a good job.
	I can't take it, man.
	I can't.
	Will I be more attractive to the general consensus?
	No.
	I can acknowledge that.
	No, no, no.
	No, I'm stunned.
	If I was older than I am now.
	It's crazy that people are out here farming these answers when I'm the only one with an OF.
	I don't understand.
	I don't know.
	It's like, what is the game?
	I really do genuinely.
	I will be dead.
	No, you might be alive at 100.
	I'm not making it that far.
	Yeah.
	You don't know what I do.
	What do you do?
	What do you do?
	No.
	I mean, if I make it to, I truly, I don't think that I will be more attractive.
	They're different words.
	I want to specify that.
	I do not think I'll be more attractive in 10 years.
	I think it is beautiful to age.
	I think wrinkles are beautiful.
	I think what about you?
	I would be probably about the same in 10 years, but 10 years ago, I think I actually was worse looking because I was obese most of my life.
	And then I didn't hit my prime until like, like, honestly, like last year or anything, I've been like at my healthiest.
	I work out the most.
	I take care of myself the most now.
	So, okay, so you'll be better looking at 37 versus now 27.
	What about 20 years, 47?
	No, I think I'll definitely be declining by then.
	And then 27 versus 18, better looking now?
	Yes.
	Yeah, I was not good looking.
	You're 28, better looking at 38.
	Yeah, so I'm going to work some peptide magic.
	Somewhat?
	Some peptide magic.
	48, 20 years?
	No.
	And then, were you better looking at 18 or better looking now?
	No.
	By the way, do you post like, when did you start bodybuilding?
	At what age?
	When I was 16.
	Oh, 16.
	Okay.
	So by the time you were like 18 or 20, were you already pretty?
	I mean, I started lifting when I was 12.
	Okay.
	I was always pretty.
	Are you natty?
	Not now.
	When did you start taking PEDs?
	PEDs?
	In 2020.
	So after like, I started body, I did my first show in 2014.
	And then the year before I turned pro is when I started PEDs.
	Really quick question on the PED.
	Yeah.
	Does it, Nick knows what?
	Does it grow things like down there?
	It can.
	Like a giant big clit.
	It really depends on the person.
	I haven't had issues with it.
	I mean, definitely more swelling when on gear.
	Swelling.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But look, I've been very lucky.
	Like, I, although the internet might say otherwise, I have a very feminine face in bodybuilding.
	Okay.
	And you just, you have to be smart with your protocols.
	But they change your voice too, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I found a video from when I, the year, but right before I started PEDs, and I'm like talking to my dog, my voice is, I can't go that high now.
	I have, oh, wow.
	I have Annabar voice for sure.
	Do you, does that distress you at all?
	Like the voice changes?
	Not even a little bit.
	Nothing at all.
	Like, I, I mean, people are like, oh, like, you destroyed your voice to get that physique.
	Like, it's not worth it.
	Maybe not to you, but I'm doing very well at my craft.
	And I've been very, I think, intelligent in my protocols.
	And yeah, I have no.
	Okay, I will say, my upper body, I love the way I look and it's really cool.
	And I'm doing something very specific.
	But when I'm 38, by that time, I will reduce this.
	I want to be able to wear like a freaking laser or something.
	Okay.
	But I am completely confident in my ability to manipulate and control through science.
	Okay.
	But yeah.
	Can you do like the Hulk Hogan and then like, yeah, brother.
	No one.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	Sorry.
	That was ridiculous ass.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Better looking in 10 years for you?
	No, I don't think so.
	Okay, and you're 31, better looking at 21?
	Probably, yeah.
	Okay.
	You're 31, right?
	31.
	Were you better looking?
	Better looking at 41?
	Will you be better looking at 41?
	Yeah.
	51?
	Yeah.
	Yes, all the way through.
	71.
	Yes, I'll be.
	81.
	I just prefer organic.
	And I think 91.
	Natural people.
	You know what I mean?
	101?
	Okay, no, no.
	At that point, I'll say no.
	But just to be clear, so you're 31.
	You think you'll be better looking at 51 than you are now at 31?
	Yeah.
	There's a lot of very good-looking 50-year-olds.
	My goodness.
	But I mean, I hope to be on that echelon, however, like compared to now, maybe, but you know what?
	I'm going to love myself nonetheless.
	If you're one right now, what will you be when you're 50?
	Oh my gosh.
	What remember will you go to?
	How about this?
	Wait, now I'm confused.
	Were you better looking 10 years ago at 21?
	I don't think so.
	Better looking now.
	Okay, well, you know, we're a little fun segment here.
	We've AI aged advanced all of you.
	So we're going to pull that up super quick.
	We have a message.
	Hold on.
	Felicity, can I have you read this?
	To Taylor Lyft and Chair Six, your physique is incredible.
	You've worked hard and it's paid off.
	Thank you.
	Chepsky, thank you for that, man.
	Appreciate the message.
	And then we have one more from JM Bain.
	If you can read this one, changed my mind.
	The lift of adulthood when you can sign contacts, join the military, own firearms, drink alcohol, drive a car, et cetera, should be raised to 25 because that's when the brain finishes maturing.
	Interesting.
	Thank you for the message.
	Nick, go ahead.
	We're going to pull up all the age advancements right now.
	Oh.
	Okay.
	I think you look adorable.
	Next.
	Thanks.
	Oh, hell yeah.
	Yeah, you're going to age beautifully.
	Damn.
	He's going to look exactly the same.
	Watch.
	He's going to look exactly the same.
	Next.
	Whoops.
	Oh, sexy.
	I like it.
	Looking like a mafia.
	It's actually an awesome picture of you.
	Dude, you're about to fucking break the board, bro.
	We'll be breaking boards at 80.
	Let's go.
	Aw.
	You said that's like maybe 71, 81 there.
	I think she's a cutie patootie.
	All right, love it.
	Next.
	I really like this segment.
	I really liked it last time, too.
	Yeah, it's fun.
	It's cute.
	Next.
	You're still going to be buff.
	You're still going to be jacked.
	Oh, wait, wait.
	Do we have the other thing, Nick, really quick since we're on her?
	The dating thing?
	No, no, no.
	The cartoon?
	Oh, yeah, I do.
	Give me one second.
	Oh, I saw that.
	Did you cartoon us?
	I'll give you a second.
	You got it here really quick?
	Oh, that's awesome.
	I like it.
	And then, yeah, the other one, too.
	Yeah.
	Suck.
	I like those.
	Thank you.
	There you go.
	There you go.
	We'll send it to you if you want.
	And then you're, let me know when you're back.
	You're good?
	Okay.
	Not pleased.
	Okay.
	I don't understand why we're not happy about this.
	Okay, next.
	Dude, we're all going to age adorably.
	I look like a dude.
	No, you don't.
	Wait, no, it's because your hair's pulled back.
	It's just because my hair is pulled back.
	They gave you a receding hairline.
	Next.
	Okay.
	I think they were cross-eyed in it.
	Oh, wow.
	Noah.
	Wait, pull that one back up.
	What do you mean?
	I look like my old man.
	The middle one looks like Russell Crow.
	You're going to age very well.
	You have darker blue eyes, Andrew.
	They like gave you ice gray eyes that are quite striking.
	I like that the microphone becomes part of your face in the last one.
	That is true.
	Do you think I'll get the old man voice where you're like, oh, when you talk?
	I hope so.
	That's how I'm going to do it.
	I'm probably going to get the old man voice for sure.
	Oh, boy.
	I don't understand these fucking kids.
	Next.
	Damn.
	You're going to age adorably.
	What do you mean?
	Yeah.
	Nice.
	The white here with both of us looking like that in the fucking 40s.
	Imagine that shit.
	Okay.
	I will be remiss.
	I have to ask, and this is only because the fucking chat keeps getting flooded with it until I ask they won't shut the fuck up about it.
	You're not a T, right?
	Not a what?
	A T.
	No.
	Oh, cool.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Bro.
	The chat won't shut the fuck.
	Okay, now you know.
	Instagram's favorite.
	She is a woman.
	Female.
	I can prove it.
	Right?
	We all get banned.
	She's going to whip out the giant clip.
	That's what she's going to do.
	Oh, my God.
	Because of the.
	Just put ones in the fucking chat.
	I asked.
	Just, I did.
	Okay, so just put the ones in.
	I did.
	Oh, and then we've gender swapped all of you.
	So.
	Oh.
	Yeah.
	You got that?
	Whoa.
	So the question is: would you date the male version of you?
	His features look all warped and stuff because of the filter.
	Yeah, but you've got to use your imagination.
	You got to suspend disbelief a little bit.
	It's AI, you know.
	He's got a bad choice.
	He's going to squint and decide.
	Be charitable with it.
	Yeah, maybe.
	Sure.
	He's decent looking.
	Okay, next.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	There you go.
	What's with the beard, though?
	You don't think I'd be masculine?
	Just a ginger without the beard.
	Oh, yeah, the beard needed to be mad.
	I think the AI knows you're not a redhead.
	I think that that's what it is.
	AI knows you got a redhead.
	If you weren't married, would.
	I think it's pretty cute, actually.
	Next.
	Oh, whoa, whoa, okay.
	Oh, she's calm down.
	Damn.
	Holy shit.
	Calm down.
	I probably would not.
	You should have seen the way that Brian looked right then.
	He was, wow.
	I mean, I saw this light sparkle in his eye for a second.
	So, no, you don't like Asian?
	Not as much.
	Oh, sorry.
	Not as much.
	Yeah.
	Next.
	Huh.
	A san what is that?
	I would date him.
	He's cute.
	Wait, he's really fine.
	Hello.
	Would you date him?
	That's like my type.
	Okay.
	Next.
	Aww.
	I wouldn't date him.
	I think he's cute, but he's not my type at all.
	Wait, you would or wouldn't?
	I wouldn't.
	No, just because he's too dorky.
	He's going to be thumping about some Protestant Bible stuff by the way.
	Why is my photo so butchered?
	I feel like it was like bad from the start.
	Yeah, I don't know why it made you feel that.
	Because it didn't look like that in the video.
	He's going to tell you that his interpretation is that you can have female pastors.
	I guarantee it.
	I guarantee it.
	My hair is just horrible.
	I like guys with long hair, like Dreds.
	Specifically, Dreads.
	Oh.
	Oh, hey.
	You're catching my trip.
	I mean, he's hot.
	I feel like the base.
	I would accept that.
	What the fuck is wrong with his side of his head?
	I mean, I can't suspend disbelief that much, bro.
	He's like, it literally looks like he's been boxing for way too long.
	He probably has my type of stuff.
	Yeah, yeah.
	He's got some serious problems.
	Tito or tease, if he got his side of his face bashed in, maybe.
	He's beautiful, though.
	Thank you.
	Next.
	Yeah, I would date him.
	He does look like that one guy, Glenn, or whatever.
	I think that guy's more attractive than Glenn Powell.
	Okay.
	Next.
	I feel like I've seen this person before.
	Would you date the male version of you?
	Sure.
	Why does he have a stigma?
	There's like, see the eye?
	It's like, what the fuck is wrong with him?
	One eye is bigger than the other.
	Well, no, it's just like one's looking at another person besides the one he's looking at.
	Next.
	Okay.
	She's really cute.
	It gave you lipstick.
	Looks like the sex.
	The one on the right.
	Well, I needed the makeup.
	Let's be real.
	Next.
	Yikes.
	Whoa.
	What do you mean?
	Whoa.
	I don't understand your taste.
	Yeah, I'd date her.
	She's cute.
	What do you mean?
	That's from the podcast.
	That's not from the show.
	Well, it's not from this episode, but why they don't want to redo it every can someone render the AI version of my female self blonde and then I can reassess.
	Then I can reassess.
	You need a blonde woman.
	You got to be blonde.
	Okay.
	We're going to finish off the notes, try to get things.
	Let's see.
	Did you want to do the dating segment?
	Dating?
	Remember, we were going to pull up Instagrams.
	Yes, thank you.
	We'll do that super quick.
	Okay, so I'm going to show you two Twitch streamers, two male Twitch streamers.
	Oh, I shouldn't have said that.
	Ah, shit.
	It's okay.
	We can still do it, but whatever.
	It doesn't really matter that much.
	The question is, and if you're in a relationship, you could be a good sport and answer, but if you're, you know, you're in a relationship, you don't have to answer.
	But you can.
	Would you date the following person?
	So scroll up a little bit.
	Scroll up.
	So click the photo with the axe.
	Okay.
	X out of that.
	He looks well adjusted.
	Scroll up.
	Scroll up.
	Just scroll up.
	So this guy's Zach.
	His name's Zach.
	He's a good guy.
	Good guy.
	Good man.
	Good guy.
	Plays video games a lot.
	Yeah, he does play a lot of video games.
	A lot of video games.
	He does have that axe, though, so he could protect you.
	Going around the table, I'm trying to set, he's my, you know, he's my homie, so I'm trying to set him up with a lady friend.
	Would you date?
	No.
	No, you wouldn't date him.
	Well, he doesn't run from rats, so I say yes.
	He's not a roach.
	He doesn't run for the rats, remember?
	Yeah.
	So, coexists.
	I guess I could ask you.
	I mean, if you're a girl, probably not.
	Or gay, I guess.
	No.
	What about you?
	Yeah, I think so.
	You date him?
	Okay.
	Oh, really?
	Love is blind.
	I have a boyfriend.
	Oh, right.
	Sorry.
	Sorry.
	It's for the fun of the game.
	She would date everybody.
	Remember?
	Would you date him?
	I don't know.
	He'd have to be like, have an interesting personality.
	He does have an interesting personality.
	He showers regularly, right?
	Debatable.
	That's debatable.
	I should have asked that first.
	That's like my one thing.
	It's like he looks cute, but I just didn't know if he was clean.
	He looks cute.
	So if he showers, though.
	But if he's clean, well, yes.
	He's clean.
	When you're a woman, you have to be with men who take care of this.
	Well, let's assume he is clean.
	Would you date him?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	All right.
	There we go.
	Would you date him?
	No.
	You don't want to just crush that guy.
	Oh, my God.
	Brian, I want to be dominated.
	You want to be dominated.
	I do.
	Tall order.
	He just looked me up and down.
	I did.
	Whoa.
	No.
	I was just like, I feel like.
	How much do you, is it appropriate to ask how much you weigh?
	I feel like normally that's rude to ask a woman, but I feel like for a bodybuilder, it's kind of okay.
	Yeah, no, it's fine.
	How much do you weigh?
	160.
	My last check-in, it was like 168.
	168?
	Yeah.
	Or the body fat of.
	I don't know.
	Probably like 16 or something.
	You want to be dominated.
	So, like, you want to be ravaged?
	Yes.
	Ravished?
	Radish?
	Ravish?
	You were ravished.
	Ravished.
	Radish?
	I don't know.
	Ravaged.
	Can you eat that on your diet?
	Radishes, yeah.
	Radishes.
	I'm guessing it's mostly meat-based.
	So do you, question though, would you date a non-bodybuilder?
	Yeah.
	Yes, it'd have to be- But like, you could outlift them.
	How do you do that?
	No, I would by non-bodybuilder still someone who's extremely fit and disciplined in all areas.
	Okay.
	Not necessarily.
	Like lifting.
	So they could be athletic.
	They have to be athletic.
	Have to know how to take care of themselves.
	Have to have the discipline of a bodybuilder, but applied across the board to different areas of their life.
	But what if you still squat more than them?
	Is that a problem?
	Like what if your legs are bigger than theirs?
	They won't be.
	Wait.
	She won't date anyone with smaller legs.
	Oh, you're saying it's hard to find a guy who has legs bigger than yours.
	Is that what you're saying?
	Oh, no, you're saying the opposite.
	I'm saying my pool for who I'm interested in is very small.
	So their legs have to be bigger than yours.
	They would be if I'm interested.
	Well, yeah, okay.
	Yeah.
	What about arms?
	Arms have to be bigger than yours?
	Because like you got some eyes bigger.
	You got some big arms, which I love them for the purpose that they have, but I don't want to keep them forever.
	That one guy could have arms probably equivalent to the size of mine.
	I feel like that's probably be bigger, yes.
	But so I feel like with the muscle mommy girls or whatever, I don't know if you take the muscle mommy.
	What the fuck is that?
	I'm muscle mommy.
	I don't, like, I think that the term is gross.
	Like, I.
	No, I think it's gross too, but people use it around.
	What is it?
	A muscle, muscular, muscle.
	Like fit chicks.
	They call themselves muscle mommies.
	I just, I feel like I'm.
	You know how girls have daddy?
	It's a Zoomer thing.
	I personally, I think the daddy thing is kind of weird.
	It's like a domination.
	They don't think the master is a bitch.
	Where's the nuke?
	Where is it?
	What?
	Oh, the nuke?
	The nuke.
	Here, hold on.
	Send it.
	Yes.
	Send the nuke.
	Muscle mommy.
	Good lord.
	Destroyed.
	But basically, I'm a very dominant person.
	But in a relationship, yes.
	Yes.
	Like, just be my master, you know?
	To go back there.
	She's a high bar for what's worthy of master, you know?
	Because I've heard these dudes who are like, I want you to like squish my head with your thumbs.
	That kind of weird shit.
	So gross.
	Okay.
	You wouldn't want that.
	No.
	Okay.
	No.
	So not Asmund or Zach.
	You wouldn't date Zach.
	No, I'm sure he's a sweet guy.
	What if he started getting his squat up there?
	Like, would you maybe?
	Like, if he was ripped or whatever?
	Could I?
	Okay.
	Sorry, Zach.
	What about you?
	Would you date Zach?
	I didn't see Zach.
	Can I?
	Oh, was she away?
	I was in the bathroom.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, sure.
	Show really quick.
	Would you date him?
	Probably not.
	Would you date him?
	If you were single?
	If I was single.
	Yeah.
	Only if he's attuned with Anyxia.
	What's that?
	It's a wild joke.
	Oh, okay.
	This is a good one.
	What does that mean?
	What does that mean?
	It's part of World of Warcraft.
	He's a World of Warcraft.
	He's a World of Warcraft streamer, and it's an RPG.
	So I'm MMORPG.
	All right.
	And then one more guy we have to show you.
	I'm trying to get this guy set up.
	He's had some issues.
	He's had legal issues with one of his exes, and he's been through the ringer.
	This next guy I'm about to show you.
	Really been through the ringer.
	I'm trying to set him up with maybe one of the nice gals on the panel tonight.
	So I'm going to show you, and you tell me if you're interested, and I'll get you guys set up.
	Pull it up.
	All right.
	Scroll up.
	Scroll up.
	All right.
	So his name's Felix.
	His name's Felix.
	Great guy, nice guy.
	You know, he does abuse his ADHD medication a little bit, but he's a great guy.
	Very nice, very friendly.
	And he's like a handsome guy.
	He's not bad looking, you know?
	Anyways, so the question is: would you date him?
	He's better than the last one, but still no.
	Still, still no.
	Why do you make the face when you say that?
	That's kind of rude.
	I just like his style.
	He looks like very much like a gamer boy.
	He just stays in day all day.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, true.
	Yeah, it's not really my time.
	But he's like good looking.
	I might have at one point before I saw what he likes to wear.
	His personal clothing style.
	He likes to wear clothes like somebody either jizzed on him or like a bird shat on him.
	So that made me really question his sense of judgment.
	So for that reason, though.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	X. Felix wears clothes that were shat on by birds.
	But like not actual birds.
	Like your runway.
	Yeah, it's like at least he actually has birds that shit on him, right?
	It's not like choosing to get fake clothes that look like it happened.
	It's weird.
	What about you?
	Would you date him?
	Yeah, if I liked his personality.
	Okay.
	Would you date him?
	No, he looks like a T-Mu Justin Bieber.
	T-Mu Justin Bieber.
	Would you date him?
	Brutal now.
	Would you date him?
	Yeah, but am I going to have to deal with the legal stuff with it?
	No, okay.
	No, no, no.
	Yeah.
	Would you date him?
	I'm demisexual, so there's a chance.
	Okay.
	All right.
	I'll try to get you guys set up after the show.
	What the fuck is a demisexual?
	What is that?
	You're sapiosexual, demisexual.
	Yeah, but what?
	Okay, let me explain.
	I just wanted to do that as contrast.
	A demisexual is emotional-driven attraction, and then sapiosexual is intellectual-driven attraction.
	It's very simple.
	I'm a sapiosexual, so I don't, I typically don't care what people look like, but I can't vibe with guys who like can't talk about opinions, can't talk, aren't intelligent, like, and I'm more likely to be like, I'm a this sexual on that sex.
	Come on, like, have witty banter, like, that gets me going more than like somebody having a lot of muscle or like a lot of people.
	Yeah, I know, the really hot guys that doesn't do it for me.
	So, really witty banners from the ugly fuckers that do it.
	I don't like men who feel like they can over like take over me or like I wouldn't be able to like, because I've been in a lot of abusive relationships, so that I don't have a desire to be with a man who's like super big.
	Because if things did get bad one day, I don't ever want to experience what I do.
	What if he is extremely intelligent?
	I don't know.
	Again, I still like, I actually am talking to someone very briefly who is like much bigger, but he is so smart.
	But like, the thought of like a big part of why I never even want to hang out with this person was like, What if he did?
	Like, I said no, and then try to like attack me or something, you know?
	Because I'm a jerk.
	So it sounds like unconventional answers typically stem from trauma of some sort or low self-esteem or something.
	Here, we're going to blast through these.
	Going around the table, what would you want the minimum yearly income to be for your future husband?
	Assuming that I make at least this much, six figures.
	Okay, what about great?
	I answered.
	Wait, wait, hang on a second.
	I'm sorry, before we get to you.
	Okay.
	Assuming you make the same amount, let's assume you don't.
	Then I would lower the threshold, but I would also have to evaluate how much I'm making.
	You're making nothing.
	Oh.
	Then I wouldn't even try and date.
	I would focus on trying to make some money.
	Yeah, but assuming.
	This is so far removed from who I am and like my goals.
	Yeah, I get it.
	But assuming you weren't making anything, you found the love of your life, how much would you want him to be making?
	Sure, like 60 to 80,000.
	Okay.
	It also depends on where you're living, I guess.
	Yeah.
	Then like 80,000.
	Okay.
	But I'd try and work.
	What about you?
	I answered this for my pre-influencer self living in Texas with the middle class, like lower middle class parents.
	So I said 60,000.
	It doesn't matter to me.
	Yeah, it doesn't matter to me.
	Never matters to him.
	Doesn't matter to me.
	So you date a guy who works at McDonald's?
	Yes.
	Like marry him when you're 30?
	Sure.
	I wouldn't be bothered by how much he was making.
	I might be bothered if he was miserable working there or if they were overworking him or if he didn't have any really real big goals with his life.
	What about you?
	I don't have a preference as long as at least it's full time and like our combined because I'm 50-50.
	So as long as our combined incomes are reasonably supportive, I don't want to have to support a man again.
	Unless we're married and say something happens and like he needs me to take care of him.
	I don't want to ever enter a relationship again like being like the one who like buys everything from my partner and like they go to me for everything.
	You know what I mean?
	I want to be mutually exchanged.
	All right.
	What about you?
	I said 250.
	Okay.
	250,000.
	Holy shit.
	That's a lot of money.
	Yeah.
	What about you?
	50K.
	What about you?
	I go off the triple A's.
	Attitude, aptitude, and assets.
	I mean, alignment.
	How much would your husband make?
	It's kind of a trick question.
	Oh, okay.
	He's an artist, so it's not at like a moment.
	So nothing.
	If he asked you to marry him today, though, would you say yes?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	You said you had some disagreements with the show.
	You just said yes.
	What are those?
	Or did we already get into those, maybe?
	Um, I don't remember getting into those.
	Let's see.
	Okay, before we go, uh, go into mine.
	Can I get some more water, please?
	Sorry.
	Uh-oh.
	I'm parched.
	Here we go.
	Is that all the notes?
	Okay.
	Hello?
	Okay, well, sorry to be holding up the show, folks.
	Oh, you're, it's not just, she has to go and get the water.
	You need to wait to actually drink.
	I was just wanting some time to figure it out.
	But yeah, I guess so.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	oh boy um i i do apologize but can we go back to uh force doctrine for a little bit I didn't get a chance to weigh in there.
	Is that an issue with the show, though?
	Okay, fine.
	I mean, if it's not the show, then okay.
	How about, you know, I see oftentimes with the show repeal the 19th Amendment.
	Well, that's not my position or mine.
	Alrighty.
	Sorry, my bad.
	Well, I'm not.
	It is kind of mine, but for different reasons than it's most people's.
	Okay.
	What's an actual thing, though?
	Moving off of that?
	Okay, not that one.
	Let's see.
	The highest good for a woman is to bear children.
	i know we went over that but okay okay fine fine um um smoky man bad That's usually a good place to start.
	I'm sorry.
	Smoky man, bad.
	Here, how about this?
	You said in your notes.
	That one's good.
	A lot of men aren't worthy to submit to, and you believe it's because women have become too entitled.
	Yeah, okay, thank you for that.
	I needed that.
	Yeah, I think that nowadays we have a disparity of quality of quality of dating.
	And this goes for both sides, like the male and the female.
	Where females are looking for a specific type of person, and it's all like vanity metrics.
	Like it's going to be like height or income or these various things.
	And whereas with men, they're concerned that here, let me help out.
	I'll just move on.
	You said you were married, now you're divorced.
	Your longest relationship of five years, one night on Valentine's Day, at the end of your marriage, you told him you could be, I think you said to him, you could be anyone in the world right now as he was performing cunnilingus.
	What?
	So your husband, what the fuck?
	You said you could be anyone in the world right now.
	What the fuck is that?
	What do you mean?
	I think I sort of understand what you mean.
	I mean, I think it's a terrible thing to say, but I think I see what yeah.
	Like you're saying, like, he's like interchangeable.
	Is that kind of what?
	Yeah.
	I mean, this was during my first marriage.
	I started my relationship when I was 23, and I was still trying to figure out my self, but we were still together.
	Were you trying to find yourself?
	Well, no, I wasn't trying to find myself, but I think what I'm trying to say is I was still a fledgling trying to learn and grow.
	And this person, you know, it's difficult when it's like, oh, for your anniversary, they buy you DoorDash for the anniversary dinner.
	And it's like brought to the house.
	And it's supposed to be like this romantic thing.
	And you might be able to go above and beyond and provide them a homemade meal with like steak, like waggy steak and lobster and things like that.
	And have it not be reciprocated is tough to.
	Hang on, help me out here.
	You cooked him home cooked meals and he got DoorDash for your anniversary.
	Yes.
	Was the DoorDash good?
	I mean, it was cold.
	It was puko de peppo.
	Could he cook?
	He could cook.
	He was very good at cooking.
	It was a cost.
	What does this have to do with you could be anyone in the world right now?
	My point being is that was towards the end.
	That was the end of our relationship because that was on Valentine's.
	Can you clarify what you mean when you said you could be anyone in the world right now?
	That was me saying that I was feeling disgruntled in our relationship romantically.
	And I was.
	Okay.
	It means that you didn't give a shit about him, right?
	Isn't that what it means?
	Like, if you could be anybody right now, you're just interchangeable with fucking Chuck right across the, doesn't that mean I don't really give a shit about you?
	I would say that that's my take on what I thought at the time was being kind.
	But you know, even though it was brutally honest, I think it's better to tell somebody that you're disgruntled versus, you know, commit adultery.
	Yeah, sure.
	But what you were saying was I don't give a shit about you.
	No, that is your words.
	You're creating a straw man to make my while you're doing it.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, how do you give a shit about someone when you're like, you could be Chuck?
	Because that's what I'm saying.
	You could be Fred.
	You could just be whoever.
	I mean, I had said that again because like I was.
	You wanted him to know that you cared a lot less about him than he thought, right?
	I just was trying to say that I was like falling out of love and that I don't understand enough.
	So you cared a lot less about him.
	This was while he was going down.
	While he was, you could be anybody in the world right now.
	I just, I was not feeling.
	I'm not down on women, by the way.
	This is like, this is like guys that come to my messages on OnlyFans being like, my girlfriend just broke up with me in this way and they're so sad looking for words of encouragement and asking for motivational videos just to cope.
	Like this is that kind of story.
	That's heartbreaking.
	Well, it gets worse.
	So wait, what?
	It gets worse?
	It gets worse.
	Oh, no.
	So a couple days afterwards, you say that you guys got into an argument and you called him a tool.
	He got drunk and pointed a firearm at you while your six-month infant was in the same room and said, this is a tool for you to use.
	The infant said that?
	Or he said that?
	I don't think the infant said it, Brian.
	Sorry, I miss my partial.
	He said that to me after we had both said some awful things to each other.
	Mind you, I'm sending you these DM messages as a very short brief of what I had experienced.
	Sure.
	No, I'm sure there's a lot.
	You said that that marked the end of your marriage.
	And then two years later, he did this guy.
	Hang on real quick.
	This just occurred to me.
	This is your ex-husband, right?
	He's my ex-husband.
	Yeah.
	Did he by chance die by suicide?
	He, it was an assisted suicide.
	Wait, assisted?
	Are you?
	Wait.
	I mean, what do you mean, assisted?
	Means that he got into a confrontation with an officer.
	Because he wanted to die?
	But is it because he wanted to die?
	Because he wanted to die, yes.
	Why did he want to die?
	That's a good question.
	But that's the sad part because you don't think it's because his wife said that he was an interchangeable widget with everybody on planet Earth while he was trying to sexually pleasure her?
	You don't think that that would be a contributing factor?
	I don't need your help.
	I don't need your help.
	You don't think that that's a contributing factor?
	So, I'm sorry, are you putting everything on the screen?
	No, I'm just asking.
	I'm just asking you, like, this sounds kind of miserable to me.
	You know, I can sit here and defend my honor, but the thing is, is by doing that, it's also hurting his honor.
	And I know that his family will be watching this, and this is part of it.
	And also, my daughter might be watching this in the future.
	Okay, I understand, but why did he do it?
	Like, how do you know why anybody decides to opt out of life?
	Well, I mean, if you were close to him for how many years after you were divorced, did he do this?
	Two.
	Not very long.
	No, it's not very long.
	And so, hence why his family, you know, barred me from the funeral.
	I suppose.
	Well, it's all coming together.
	Responsibility on me.
	Why would they do that?
	I'm not them, so I wouldn't, I couldn't even.
	Why do you think that they would do that?
	I would believe that they blame me for it.
	Why?
	Why would they blame me for it?
	What reasons did they have for blaming you?
	You don't usually come up with reasons to blame a person for somebody else's death that are completely unfounded.
	What did they think?
	Again, there is like transgressions that had happened.
	It's like, are we overlooking the firearm aspects?
	Not saying that he's not mentally ill.
	I'm just pointing out, I'm asking you a question, which is, why did his family think it's your fault?
	That's a public record that had happened.
	know but why does his family think it's your fault um that we like so i had divorced him because of the domestic violence and And then two years after that, we had divorced and I was getting nothing from child support.
	Two years after that, I mean, he's a principal solutions architect at Amazon, was doing 250K easy.
	And he wasn't paying you.
	So what happened then?
	So then I decided to date other people.
	Okay.
	And move on with my life.
	And then not child support.
	You didn't take him to court for child support?
	No.
	No?
	No.
	No.
	So why do they blame you then?
	Hmm.
	Could it be that there was history of trauma that he had?
	Why did they blame you, though?
	Because, oh, yes.
	So, okay, there was a text message the morning of the fateful day that said, you don't have cancer.
	You are the cancer.
	Who doesn't have cancer?
	My ex-husband.
	So you said that he didn't have cancer.
	He was the cancer?
	Yes.
	Oh.
	And so his family, so his family believes that you were a contributing factor to his death, the guy that you said was an interchangeable widget along with anybody else who was around when he was going down on you.
	And then the day of his death, you called him a cancer.
	Wait, did he have cancer?
	He stated that he did to his family and his friends.
	But you said he didn't.
	Did he?
	He did not.
	Oh, but you stated that he was the cancer.
	But I stated, I said mean things.
	Did you say anything else to him the fateful day?
	That was it.
	No.
	And then the day before that, did you say anything mean?
	Not to that degree, no.
	But you still said other mean things?
	I wouldn't, no, I don't, I didn't speak to him that way.
	So, I mean, it sounds like his family has pretty good cause to think you might have been a contributing factor.
	So then he's suicided by cop.
	How do they know he's suicided by cop?
	How did they know that it was suicide?
	Because when...
	Did he leave a note?
	There was no note.
	He called a bunch of people and said that his daughter would, that he thinks that this is the best choice because he thinks his daughter would be better off without him.
	Oh.
	And who would his daughter be better off with?
	Not anybody.
	Oh.
	I mean, he is irreplaceable in that sense.
	He is irreplaceable.
	So the day that this guy calls all of his friends and leaves a verbal diary behind that he's going to kill himself happened to be the day that you said that he was a cancer.
	No, I think, again, we are overlooking the mental health aspect of this situation.
	Well, if you thought he was mentally ill, why would you say shit like that to him?
	I didn't know that he was that mentally ill.
	Oh, really?
	The guy who pointed a gun at you?
	You didn't know he was that mentally ill.
	Interesting.
	I didn't know that.
	I know that really is usually mentally stable men who point guns at their wives in front of their infants.
	But I had divorced them for a specific reason of the firearm charge.
	And then after that.
	Doesn't sound like a stable man.
	I don't know why you would send him a message calling him a cancer.
	He was going through a lot.
	Well, he was.
	He was going through a lot.
	He was going through a lot.
	And then you triggered the breaking point, and he fucking killed himself, right?
	That's unbelievable.
	Well, it is unbelievable.
	It's unbelievable.
	It's unbelievable that I have to draw the details out and is being invasive when it's very clear that there was some shit that happened.
	It's not your fault.
	How the fuck do you know?
	What do you mean?
	Well, from what she's told us.
	And what she's told us is that she drove the guy to fucking kill himself.
	No, she did not.
	Yes, she did.
	People don't decide to kill themselves over one.
	No, because what she's describing, ladies, a pattern of behavior.
	She said I was mean a couple days before, mean a couple days before.
	The whole family blames her.
	That's so much worse.
	The whole family blames her.
	No, yeah, because people know her.
	I know, there's no reason.
	She just called him a fucking cancer the day he happened to kill himself.
	I've had people treat me so much worse than that.
	You're not a man, and your value of yourself is not you providing for your family and being a father and being a husband.
	Like a lot of men have this sense of purpose in their life.
	And I'm sorry, if they choose to kill themselves over the fact that they treated someone poorly, therefore they retaliated, then that is their own fault.
	It's really funny how quickly the sisterhood comes into effect.
	No, it's not sisterhood.
	It's common fucking sense.
	Did you ever think that perhaps a person who felt responsible might do their best to be evasive about the details of things?
	Hang on, stop.
	Let me finish.
	All right.
	And then you can respond.
	Go on.
	That the details of the things, if we had the totality of them, may look very bad for them if they gave them to us.
	And so that's why they're particularly evasive when you ask them specific questions about circumstances.
	Doesn't that stand a reason?
	Or hang on, or do I sound like an unreasonable lunatic to you right now?
	I can understand if that were the circumstance.
	Did you let me finish the interrogation before you weigh in then?
	Okay, go on.
	Great.
	I'm sorry for your loss.
	Great.
	So, well, it doesn't sound like it's much of a loss.
	She said that he could have been anyone.
	What did she lose?
	Just because you don't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone who abused you, doesn't mean that you don't call because he lied about having cancer.
	How do you know that?
	What are you doing?
	Because she says so.
	If she is lying, then that is going to weigh on her conscience.
	But it doesn't benefit anyone here to try and call her a liar.
	I don't think you're lying.
	Instantly dive in on the sisterhood without having any facts.
	If she were a man, I would be saying the same shit.
	Without having any of the facts as I'm trying to get the facts, you could just wait until we got the facts and then made the assessment judge, but you couldn't help yourself had to come in on the sisterhood.
	I couldn't help myself.
	I couldn't help myself because this is an insane way to treat a person.
	How did I treat her?
	You're accusing her of lying on something that you don't know anything about.
	She's been through something.
	You hit the establishment first and made me demanded that I give you an assessment based on what I heard I did.
	You didn't even let me finish.
	You didn't even let me finish the questioning because you were so butthurt.
	Yes, I am.
	She was giving details about something she could be responsible for.
	No, you are accusing her of something.
	I'm not mad that you're asking her questions, but I am mad that you're accusing her of the person.
	I don't care what you're.
	I didn't listen.
	Based on only what I've heard, you asked for my assessment, I gave it.
	And you're more than welcome to, and I'm allowed to disagree.
	And I'm not feeling that.
	Can we at least wait until we get the details?
	Sure.
	Great.
	So, anyway, back to this.
	What else did you say to this guy over the previous three weeks?
	Was there massive fights going on?
	What was going on?
	There was no massive fights.
	He was going in, sorry, excuse me, in out of rehab.
	So he was struggling with.
	What was he going in and out of rehab for?
	With alcohol.
	Oh.
	So he's going in rehab.
	He was struggling.
	He was struggling.
	Why did you call him a cancer that day?
	I said, you don't have cancer.
	You are the cancer.
	Yeah, why did you say that, though?
	What did he do?
	He was not, he was not supporting our daughter, not supporting our daughter.
	So he wasn't giving you money.
	I wasn't getting anything, and I was having her the whole 100% of the time.
	So why this guy is going to retire to rehab and trying to kick alcohol, which is one of the worst addictions on planet Earth.
	And it can kill you.
	Actually, if you cold turkey from alcohol, it'll fucking kill you.
	Because you weren't getting any money from him, you called him a cancer.
	Is that right?
	I think that it was not like directly as a response to that.
	He had said something degenerate towards me, and we were bickering.
	And that's when I had said that.
	This guy who's going through rehab.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Said something, sent something to me.
	What did he say?
	I think I don't recall the exact details.
	Well, it must not have been that important.
	Perhaps.
	But it was something that I had snapped at him for.
	That I was sick and tired of the lies because I didn't know what was his, what was our reality together.
	Now, I never met you before.
	I didn't know anything about your story, your tale.
	I've never seen anything, but there was a reason that I guessed it was a suicide.
	What reason do you think that I guessed that and was basically right?
	What reason would I have to believe just as a guess, and it was an easy one, that this guy committed suicide?
	That I initiated the divorce?
	I don't know.
	I'm not sure.
	Well, I'll just tell you my assessment just from having talked with you for listening.
	So I talked to thousands of women, right?
	But My guess, and you can tell me if I'm way off base, but have you been diagnosed with mental illnesses yourself?
	Me?
	No.
	None?
	No.
	You take no psychotrophic drugs?
	I do not.
	You take nothing?
	No.
	Okay.
	Well, then I'm wrong.
	I was right in the assessment on the suicide.
	Just saying, I'll leave it there.
	Well, consider that men's suicide rates have just gone up.
	Usually they go up because they're like veterans or they're homeless.
	Sometimes it's directly contributed because they're addicts, but oftentimes it's when they're addicts and they're going through a divorce and there's a lot of demands being placed on them while they're trying to get their shit together.
	That's where we get the contributions to these suicides.
	And you can state, you can put the entire argument on me, but I'm not putting the entire argument on you.
	I'm just pointing out this was a suicide and was right.
	In aura, where you think that it has to be due to my like bipolar?
	You think I'm like schizophrenic?
	Nope.
	I don't know what the diagnosis is.
	What's been your expert, anecdotal expertise on it?
	Anecdotal is right.
	So it's just like when you have like a elongated, when you have elongated speech with people, you start to realize certain patterns of how people talk.
	And especially if you talk to different sexes, when they display mental illness with men, it's usually aggressive.
	It's usually aggressive almost every single time I've seen it.
	They snap, they do things like this, and you can pull it out of them pretty quick.
	With women, it's usually they, you can see it usually when they can't collect their thoughts, they can't make coherent sentences, they become easily distracted, things like this.
	Usually that's a sign of things like, well, I don't know, BPD and other, just a shot in the dark, you know what I mean?
	But that's just been my experience.
	It just didn't surprise me that you, the second you said that he was giving you cunnelingus and you said that he could have been anybody, I had a gut feeling he died by suicide.
	I just had a gut feeling.
	So because I was feeling unhappy in the marriage, I chose to leave a marriage that was a danger, a threat to my daughter and I. After I said some words that I was just kind of on that day, I had no idea.
	Look, there's two sides to every story.
	There's two sides.
	We can sit here and be pedantic on this, but the fact of the matter is you don't know the whole story.
	You don't know what he went through when he was an adolescent.
	But I did guess that he committed suicide correctly, didn't I?
	The essays he had to undergo through as a little boy.
	It's very, it's the people's lives.
	That's exactly what you say to a guy who's experienced SA and was an alcoholic and had all kinds of resettles.
	He's got fucking cancer the day he died.
	He has family.
	He has three other brothers.
	He's got sisters.
	It's like, you put all of it on me.
	Do all of them blame you?
	Do they blame you for it?
	No, not all of them do.
	I think it's pretty split, but it's his brothers are.
	Wait, they barred you from going to the funeral.
	Yeah.
	Well, the thing is, is it's the dad that's the most upset.
	And he's not going to tolerate someone that's going to, like, that could cause disruption at their funeral.
	I think it was perhaps like looking back, like the better decision, even though it hurt me.
	I'm still processing what I could have done better as his wife.
	And, you know, maybe not say why he's going to become that he could have been anybody.
	And so words carry so much impact.
	And so, if anything, they do.
	You know, I was 26, 27 at the time, and I'm appalled how much these words can hurt people when I was just under the same.
	Yes, I'm appalled at the consequences of my ramifications.
	And if there's a way that I could take it back, I would knowing what I know now.
	But you don't sound very appalled.
	You just said it's not on me.
	I would like other people to.
	I mean, what can I do now?
	It's sad.
	It's upset.
	Like this whole conversation was brought up in a very combative way.
	You know, I didn't even get to bring it up in my own tone.
	It was just kind of, this is how it was.
	Courtney and Courtney, it's like, Courtney, let me just, you know, paint you in this bad light.
	And it's like, okay, paint me in this bad light.
	There's, I just hope that at the end that people can understand how much impact words have.
	And that, and then they don't block people, especially if they're truly hurting like that.
	Hang on, what do you mean not block people?
	Wait, really quick, before you answer that, in what light would you wish to be painted in while your husband is attempting to give you sexual pleasure where you are?
	You say you could be anyone in the world right now, at least as it relates to that, what light would you like to be painted?
	I already said this, but I will say it again.
	I think that when someone is kind, they're going to say things that hurt, versus do something like cheat and commit adultery.
	I mean, perhaps there was a better way I could have spoken that truth of feeling unattended for and ungratified but we weren't having sex.
	It's not like we were having sex and like oh, it was just one time.
	It's like we were in a very long dry spell.
	We had a we.
	All we did was we played video games together as our way of bonding.
	It's like we didn't really want to leave the house.
	We had like um, this very much agoraphobic like, did not, aversion to like to going out.
	We, we loved each other's company.
	So I thought, and so I felt, that we had maximum trust.
	Just for the whole panel.
	I mean uh, we were gonna order some pizza.
	Does anybody want some pizza?
	Yeah um oh, for me right, I gotta, I do.
	Well no, but I do have.
	I do have to roll soon because I have debate tomorrow and I gotta get some.
	I gotta get some shut eye okay uh, yeah.
	So you want to stay for the pizza?
	At least i'll stay for the pizza, of course, of course.
	Um, if you put pineapple on that fucking pizza, you're going over that balcony.
	Pepperoni anybody?
	Like vegetarian or anything.
	I can't have beef.
	Beef, just beef.
	I can have any other meat.
	Pepperoni is fine then yeah, pepperoni is usually a mix of pork and beef, is it?
	Yeah um, it's pork.
	And how about this?
	We'll do, how do I know?
	One pepperoni, one olive, that's fine.
	Sausage, like cheese, is fine.
	Anything, literally anything, but one olive, one pepperoni, all right, we'll get some food for everybody.
	I'm sure you guys are a little uh bit on the hungry, Hungry side.
	We have a super chat here from Nasho Nabo.
	Yeah, totally going to weigh on the conscious of someone smiling, telling the story of pushing someone over the edge while scoffing at her involvement in the end.
	Chair seven is evil.
	Chair four, wait, chair seven or chair seven is evil.
	Chair four, oppositional defiant disorder.
	The entire family thinks she's at fault, but C4 believes her over the entire family.
	So he's referencing the conversation here.
	Because it's an uncomfortable conversation.
	He's saying chair four wanted to jump in because it made her uncomfortable, which I understand.
	Made her uncomfortable.
	She wanted to jump in on the defense.
	Sisterhood always does this.
	I'm very used to it.
	It's not, from my perspective, it's just a normal Tuesday, right?
	So I'm not upset about it.
	That's the way it always works.
	But that's what he's saying.
	He's saying that you jumped in.
	You were combative because you didn't like what you were hearing.
	So you jumped in in order to cause a defense.
	It's very, very common.
	I was combative because I think that it was a disgusting way to handle the conversation.
	Yeah, I know.
	Women always think that everything is a disgusting way to do anything when you're trying to get to something that's factual.
	We are more than welcome to disagree.
	And I disagree.
	And I'm welcome to it.
	Like you just said.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Finishing up some of the final notes.
	Let's do Melissa.
	You got some notes.
	What did I say?
	Okay.
	Uh-oh.
	So you said in your notes, you haven't had a boyfriend since 2021.
	Haven't really dated anyone consistently since.
	You've been on dates.
	You've had some short-term hookups, something unique.
	The last couple years, you often do acid when you go on dates.
	Yeah.
	Do.
	Acid.
	Any other, any little scooting to the table a little bit, just so we can.
	What is the deal with bodybuilders and psychedelics, man?
	They go fucking nuts for psycho.
	They don't fucking sense things.
	They go fucking wild for psychedelics.
	You said that you any other drug use or just the acid?
	I mean, not on date.
	Like I don't have done.
	Well, you're not tripping on acid right now, or your pupils would be fucking the size of the dev star.
	I forgot it.
	Yeah.
	You should have taken acid on the Blood Ever podcast.
	That would have been a good thing.
	I actually texted my best friend this morning.
	I was like, I forgot the acid.
	Oh, great.
	Shoot.
	Well, you said that aside from the fact it's fun, it helps you engage very deeply and enjoy conversation, even if you're not romantically interested in the person.
	So if you are romantically interested in the person, you don't take the acid.
	No, that's not necessarily fun.
	Oh, okay.
	And I don't, oh, well, I haven't.
	You're like, damn, this person's boring.
	Are you micro-dosing or you take a full tap of acid?
	No, like a quarter job.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So you're not, so you're like quartering.
	So you're quarter tripping.
	Yeah.
	You're quarter tripping.
	Okay.
	You really have fun, but like no one knows besides me.
	You said you were hooking up with twins.
	Yeah, I was.
	And one of them turned out to be married.
	Yes.
	When you say twins, two guys?
	Yes.
	You did a devil's threesome?
	One time we had a threesome.
	Were you threw yourself?
	Did the twins do stuff with each other?
	No.
	Oh, okay.
	Wait, have you had more than one threesome?
	Or like with different groups of people or whatever?
	I had one in college.
	In college, okay.
	Wait, was it the Trend Twins?
	You know how many times?
	They do live in Florida, though.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	You said you got a super gay matching tattoo with a guy you were seeing for only two weeks right before you moved out of state and then you ended things with him over the phone a few weeks later.
	Yes.
	It was an 11.
	And it says 11 too, so when we hold hands in the car, it's 11.
	11.
	How gay is that?
	Max and I have avocado tattoos matching, but he has the nut one in it.
	So it's like, I was like he would fill me up or whatever.
	Yeah, and I had that.
	Watch.
	Sorry.
	Don't be matching tattoos with your exes.
	I don't know.
	I think mine's yours is way cuter than mine.
	Wait, so just to be clear, do you?
	Did I hear that right?
	Yeah, can you?
	Yeah.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Can you explain this again?
	Can you repeat that again?
	We both have a half of the avocado, but he has the nut in the avocado.
	And the seed.
	Yeah, the seed.
	Okay.
	Yeah, same thing.
	But you call it the nut.
	But the joke was that, like, he always told me it was more lovey-dovey, but everybody always took it super sexual, so he just kind of ran with that.
	It's pretty fucking super sexual.
	I mean, you like to sleep.
	He has the nut and is filling you up.
	I mean, what the fuck?
	Oh, I hope my partner is filling me up, so or else I probably don't want to be with them.
	So romantic.
	Or else I'm going to have to take care of it myself.
	Send the nuke.
	Send the nuke again.
	Please send the nuke.
	Yeah, I like dark humor, so it worked out for me.
	And we sounds like one of those you had to be there.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	Good times.
	Okay.
	Matching.
	Do you guys have matching tattoos?
	We don't have any tattoos.
	No tattoos.
	No tattoos.
	Okay.
	Oh, oh, my goodness.
	This guy is on fire.
	Robert Tanner donated one thing.
	Thank you, man.
	Thank you, Robert.
	You're fucking champagne with your pizza.
	Thanks, Brian.
	And Andrew, appreciate you guys.
	Yo, Robert Tanner, thank you, man.
	You're fucking legend.
	I'll wait to pop it for a few minutes and we'll wait for the pizza.
	But thank you, man.
	That's very, very kind of you.
	Mr. Tanner, nice to see you again.
	Oh, I guess.
	Yeah, take that T1.
	Oh, what the heck?
	We are donated $69.
	Watson saying is the women have zero empathy about a puppy's story.
	All they only care about her not looking like a bad guy.
	So much emotional intelligence.
	I guess this is a good moment to say that I'm.
	We're going to be doing a roast session in a little bit.
	I had.
	So the roast is going to be $69 TTS.
	Or if you have a QA, you can do QA, roast.
	We'll do $69.
	You're going to get roasted so hard on the pimp suit, dude.
	I'm okay with that.
	You're going to get roasted soon.
	You might get compliments.
	He might get compliments.
	You look sharp, Andrew.
	Are you going to start wearing a pimp hat?
	Yes.
	For the fuzzy, a fuzzy like Halloween costume.
	Let's see here.
	Finishing off Melissa's notes.
	The matching tattoo.
	You know what?
	I tell you one story.
	What's that?
	Uh-oh.
	Don't worry about it.
	Wait, no, no, no.
	What you just said?
	The one story?
	There's a story on.
	What's the story?
	It's a blowjob story.
	Oh, I didn't even.
	Yeah, okay.
	We can do that.
	Well, I'll see.
	I'll see when I get back to it.
	We're going to do a couple things from the questionnaire.
	There's a lot.
	We're definitely not going to do everything.
	But really quick, 24.
	Women are the primary victims of war, not men.
	You say both are victims.
	Yeah.
	But you do acknowledge that.
	In different ways.
	Sure, but you acknowledge that, at least when it comes to war, men are more the victims than women.
	I mean, I think they're affected in different ways, but do you mean like death count?
	Because they fight in the war somewhere?
	No.
	More like this.
	Here would be my argument: you can get over trauma.
	You can't get over death.
	That would be my argument.
	So, therefore, men are more victims in war than women are.
	I mean, yeah, I think you'd also have to look at the war.
	Like, when I think about what's going on in Sudan or Sudan right now, like, I'd say women are, in a way, like, very much victims.
	As much as going on in Sudan.
	Like there's a lot of like mass rape and torture.
	Yeah, that's true, but men are still primarily the ones dying.
	I mean, it's kind of okay.
	So let's say on one hand, you're saying, like, okay, a man is more likely to get shot there.
	A woman's more likely to get assaulted, then watch her whole family get assaulted, then watch her man.
	Do you agree with me that that's kind of hard to tell?
	Do you agree with me that that's highly traumatic?
	Yeah.
	Do you agree with me, though, that I'd rather die than have to go through that, if I'm being honest?
	Oh, really?
	Than to watch my children get assaulted and killed.
	I mean, well, the thing is, is that while that does happen, that's not the commonality.
	And so the thing is, is like in warfare, if you agree with me that trauma is something that you can adhere to and something that you can deal with and something that many people can even place behind them, then even if it's traumatic for one.
	Someone has to acknowledge that many people can't fully.
	Like you mentioned veterans killing themselves.
	Many can't, but when you say many, that it like, how many are we talking?
	Well, it's not just trauma.
	Like, war affects you permanently.
	In other words, like economically, you know.
	That sounds like it's all trauma, though.
	In a way, yeah.
	So it's like you can move away from trauma.
	You can't move away from fucking death.
	Okay, men probably die more often in wars.
	Yeah, so then if you can, if one can be healed from and one can't, then how is one not worse than the other?
	I mean, again, I don't think, I mean, a woman can heal from that trauma, but like a lot of people are not.
	But men can't heal from the trauma of death.
	Do we agree?
	Is it?
	Yeah, I think it is.
	I think it's a very traumatic thing to die.
	You're actively facing like death.
	Okay, I thought you meant like lasting trauma, like something that you experience.
	I mean, it lasts as long as you're alive to experience that death.
	And so it's like, you can't get over that because you're fucking dead.
	So it seems to me like if the argument is like, well, women get a lot of trauma.
	You want me to say that men die more often in wars than women?
	No, that's not what I'm after.
	We already agree that that's true.
	What I'm after is that the primary victim, if you have a victim-non-victim relationship, the idea here is that trauma for women is victimization.
	I agree.
	But that's something that can be at least dealt with.
	Death is permanent.
	So if death is permanent, how could you not be the primary victim if you die?
	Oh, wait, also, when you say like men are dying a lot more often, you're talking about like people who are like fighting.
	No, I mean, just overwhelmingly, they die more.
	They even die more often in support roles.
	Let's be real.
	Because they're the ones who are building the power lines.
	They're the ones who are digging the ditches.
	They're the ones who are doing all that shit.
	Well, I'm talking about war, right?
	Even in war.
	Even in war, the support roles.
	Even in war, the support roles are going to be men dying still, even as opposed to women in support roles.
	Are men like targeted more in wars?
	Well, it's not just a matter of targeting.
	They just have more dangerous jobs.
	Okay, well, yeah, men have more dangerous jobs than women.
	Sure.
	So they're going to die more.
	If that's the case, then women can heal from trauma.
	Like, if I gave you the percentage of women who die in wars, it's extremely small.
	I mean, we can pull it up, in fact.
	Okay, I guess what I'm saying is, like, I don't, women aren't in like, would you say women are like in a much better position when it comes to war?
	Yes.
	Because you can heal from trauma.
	You can't heal from death.
	But you can't always heal from trauma.
	But you, but you have you always have a chance to heal from trauma.
	You have no chance to heal from death.
	Okay.
	I agree with that.
	Yeah.
	But what I'm still saying is women are so affected by war that it like you can say there's a difference, but like you would have to acknowledge like both are severely affected.
	Yeah, but we're looking for the primary.
	So if out of two.
	Okay, as long as women's suffering during war is not dismissed, especially when they also are subject to certain kinds of suffering.
	Not at all.
	It's not dismissed at all.
	When they're subject to certain kinds of suffering in certain cases, like Sudan, that's like really horrible.
	I mean, you still have to be a three-year-old.
	Even then, let's say a woman has to watch her entire family get killed in front of her.
	I still think that that's preferable to her being one of the members of her family killed in front of her because that's a permanent condition and the trauma is something which can at least be dealt with.
	So you would agree that there's at least some women who go through that situation who can deal with that trauma long term, though it affects them horribly.
	I agree.
	They at least have a chance.
	If they're fucking hang on, but if they're dead, they don't.
	They don't even have the chance.
	I mean, the way I almost see it is like, if you're alive in that circumstance, it's so torturous.
	It's torturous.
	But you have a chance to heal from it or you have a chance to deal with it.
	You have at least a chance to do that.
	If you're dead, that chance, gone.
	I don't think any woman's going to heal from like all her children dying.
	Listen, do you think that women haven't seen that in war before and went on to continue with life clear up until an old age?
	Because they have.
	And yes, the trauma's with them.
	It's horrible, but they at least have that chance.
	The dead don't have a chance because they're dead.
	So I think that that would be the primary victim, right?
	Okay, by the metric of death tool, then yeah, men are affected worse, but both are severely badly affected.
	Well, so we acknowledge that terrible things do happen to women during wartime.
	It's not just roses and daisies for women, although for many it is.
	For prime example, here would be, I know, I don't think war is ever roses and daisies.
	Hold on.
	So for example, in Ukraine, all the men had to stay.
	They were barred, even men who weren't actively even in the military.
	From leaving.
	All the men had to stay physically prevented from leaving.
	All the women, if they were so inclined, could leave.
	And many of these women, where did they go?
	They went west, United Kingdom, Stockholm, Italy, wherever.
	Got refugees.
	They went to the United States.
	They went to Miami.
	Within two weeks of the Ukraine war breaking out, you had Ukrainian women who were in Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden, and they were in the hottest nightclubs there partying and getting fucked by hot Swedish dudes.
	Explain to me how the Ukrainian women in the Ukrainian conflict have it worse than the Ukrainian men.
	I never said they had it worse.
	So who's the primary victim of war, at least as it relates to the Ukrainian war?
	Well, in that case, men.
	In that case, men.
	Many women, and this isn't just related to the Ukraine conflict, many women have the option to flee.
	Okay, so what you're saying is in certain situations, women will have an advantage in most of the world.
	I would also say you can point to Sudan.
	I can point to 99% of wars that have ever occurred.
	Men have had it worse.
	What is a male life worth to you?
	Well, what is the calculus for you?
	Because you're saying, okay, well, the worst outcome for women would be like torture or rape or something, right?
	So then how many men would you be willing to let die to prevent one rape?
	Zero.
	I wouldn't want anyone.
	I said, I already said.
	Did you allow one man to die to prevent one rape?
	No.
	I wouldn't allow a man to die.
	I never said women's suffering was worse than men's.
	Did I?
	I mean, then why are you, I'm not sure why you're arguing.
	When I said, I mean, look, I wasn't aware of the statistic that men experienced.
	What if we took it this way?
	Would you let one man die to prevent 10 rapes?
	That's a really, that's a tough question.
	15?
	It's like that's a tough question.
	I'd say it is a tough question.
	They're on similar levels.
	If they're on similar levels, then that would mean that there would need to be at least 15 rapes for every one man dead for the women to be afraid of the people.
	I mean, it's kind of hard to quantify that.
	That would mean, though, the entailment of that would mean it would be at least, at the very least, 15 rapes per every man dead that would be necessary for women to be the primary victims in that conflict.
	Women were the primary victims.
	So then.
	Even in my original, like, this is a topic I'm going to be honest, I'm not very educated on.
	Even in my original paper, I never said that women were the primary victims.
	I just said I'm asking you, based on the information you have now, would you say men are the primary victims of war?
	Well, in terms of death, yeah.
	Well, not just in terms of death, but yeah, okay.
	But not by, okay.
	I would still say women suffer severely to the point where don't disagree that women suffer.
	Never disagree with that.
	I think that's fair enough then.
	Right, but you wrote both are victims.
	So that is.
	Both are victims in war.
	Yes, of course.
	Women do suffer during wartime.
	That's all I'm saying.
	But are they both equally victims?
	Well, now that we've had this conversation, like we've established death is like the worst thing that can happen to you.
	Do you think that?
	I mean, again, like personally.
	Like under most circumstances, you do, right?
	Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to look at it from a super personally biased POV.
	Yeah.
	But under most circumstances.
	I would view being drafted as being a victim.
	Like, would you say it's a victim when a child gets taken from its home?
	Like, if the guy does, if it's an involuntary draft, then I would say it's a victim.
	Well, all drafts are involuntary.
	You have to draft, right?
	That's no point.
	So, and I mean, you make a good point here.
	And, you know, I brought this up earlier when we were talking about force doctrine, right?
	It's the idea that men and who has to sign up for the draft here.
	I don't agree with the draft.
	Yeah, but who has to sign up for it here?
	Well, men have to sign up for it, but I still don't.
	Do women?
	No.
	Yeah.
	Do you know why?
	Because men are physically stronger than women.
	It's because the United States government has done nothing but test battlefield capabilities since.
	When's the last time they implemented the draft?
	It was in the Vietnam War.
	That's a while ago.
	Slavery was a while ago.
	Does that no longer matter?
	Yeah.
	Does that not have an impact on black Americans?
	But worse is like, it wasn't that long ago.
	You know, it was during my dad's lifetime.
	So it wasn't that long ago.
	It's not like we're talking about ancient history here.
	And it could be re-implemented.
	And men still have to sign up for it and women don't.
	And the reason is because the U.S. government and governments around the world, when they have any type of conscription, they look at the entire history and the competence of who on the battlefield could actually do the job.
	And they always come down to men.
	Well, I agree.
	Men are victims of the draft.
	When I said both, also I was thinking about how there are certain types of suffering that only women will be able to experience during war.
	Like my head went to like in Gaza, women who are pregnant, they don't have access to the medical care that is needed for that kind of situation.
	And like women who are breastfeeding in that situation literally are drawing from their own nutritional storage to the point where they're like becoming malnourished themselves.
	And that's just an example of something I thought of that would only directly affect women during war.
	But obviously by every other metric, men experience die more.
	Sure, I think I'd be willing to grant that.
	And also, women are subject to rape a lot more than men.
	But continue.
	Sorry.
	Yeah.
	Women have unique issues that they face in all kinds of facets of life.
	I just think it's an interesting thing to push on.
	You saying that would be aching to me saying, you know what?
	When women go through the struggles of like pregnancy, you know, when I'm sitting by my future girlfriend wife's bedside and she's squeezing my hand really hard when she's pushing uh, pushing a child out of her vagina, that's maybe ripping her apart a little bit.
	Poor Andrew's hand, poor Andrew's hand was squeezed really hard and it was bruised for a couple days.
	But and he's the primary, actually most, most of it was my wife swearing at the mid midwife and calling her a fucking incompetent idiot, which I thought was funny.
	No, you idiot.
	I was like yes, it'd be like us men, us men saying, well you, us men are the I wouldn't say as it relates to pregnancy.
	I wouldn't categorize it under like a victimization, but I'll say suffering.
	I think women suffer from physical pain and there's probably stress related to pregnancy.
	That would be like me saying men are the primary sufferers of pregnancy because they're, they have to witness their wives being in pain and their, their wife squeezes their hand really hard when they're, she's giving birth, or something.
	A little confused on what that has to do with what I said.
	Well, he's making, he's just trying to make it the, the analogy it's, so it works something like this, I suffer watching all of the pain that my wife is in when she's pregnant, and I suffer having to watch her give birth, and it does damage to her right.
	It's very traumatic, and so the thing is though, is like, but which is more traumatic her giving birth or me having to witness it?
	Her giving birth, right?
	And so the analogy that he's drawing is like, which is more traumatic?
	The fact that you have to witness your husband's death or you die?
	Right, he's trying to draw the parody.
	Death was like the worst thing.
	Yeah, I get it.
	I already got with that point.
	All right, i'm gonna blast through these.
	The pizza should be here soon.
	Uh, let's see, women do not have I don't know if women do not have equal rights to men in the Usa.
	Lola, you agree with that statement?
	Why is that?
	Um sorry, before I make a bold claim, I want to make sure this is something that I do genuinely still agree with, because this is something we discussed last time.
	Uh well, you circled it today, so I did, and then there have been, you know, eight or so hours since of discussion.
	We've changed your mind on that, I guess, even though we didn't really talk about rights too much.
	Well, I do think that there was an important discussion about, um defining rights but yeah again, that one's not too fresh in my mind.
	Um well yeah, if we're talking about social constructs, sure.
	So if we're talking like government given rights, like laws and stuff then uh no, I don't agree with that statement.
	Um, if we're talking, are they treated equally in society?
	Uh, what government given rights, i'm sorry.
	What government given rights?
	I think she says that government given rights, government given rights I, I think we are equal under the law.
	Okay oh okay yeah, what social rights?
	Um, I think socially, women are assumed to be less competent.
	Um, I think some things.
	Um i'm, I mean, i've been in Plenty of situations where my gender doesn't necessarily play a role in the conversation being had, yet.
	Like, I don't think that women are socially viewed as being incompetent at nursing, for instance.
	They're not usually socially viewed that way.
	They're not usually socially viewed as being incompetent as being kindergarten teachers.
	Yeah, not at everything.
	They're only at the things that men are actually more competent at, right?
	No, because I also don't think that they're more competent at mediums.
	I'm not an example of a thing that women are viewed as being more incompetent at than men.
	That isn't a thing that, well, men are better at math than women.
	Based on what?
	Pull it up.
	You'll see.
	Is it going to be the edges?
	Yes, they're better at math, unfortunately.
	How is this quantified?
	Well, actually, this is easily testable, just like IQ is easily testable.
	Okay, so you take a sample size, however, and that represents the entire gender.
	Yes.
	Actually, yes.
	In this particular case, yes, you can quantify that men are better at mathematics than women.
	Yes.
	I don't necessarily think so.
	I think you can say a man is more likely to be better at math than a woman, but I don't think that it's fair to be treated as if it's something you can't possibly be competent in, which is something that's not.
	But my point isn't whether or not it is the case that women can be viewed as less competent than men in a field.
	I asked you, what field is it that men are not better at that women are viewed as being incompetent in that they're actually better at than men?
	What?
	Okay, sure.
	In that case, nothing.
	I can add something.
	Right?
	Nothing.
	Could I have a moment?
	Sure.
	I don't know.
	I think that I have been viewed as less competent in nearly every school subject by different people.
	That's not what I asked.
	And I don't think that's something that women are.
	What I asked is: what socially are women viewed at being less competent in that men aren't actually more competent in?
	Any history subject I've taken in school?
	What?
	Men are far better.
	There's way more historians that are men than women.
	Way more.
	Okay, so I'm going to ask you now: is your claim going to be in regard, like in whatever I say that men are just better at everything?
	No, my claim will only be that in the subjects that men, or not just the subjects, but occupations that men are better in than women on average are going to be the occupations that you can point to that women are seen as less competent than men in.
	And I think that that's a rightful social assumption because men are generally better in those fields.
	And the fields that women are generally better at than men, they're not.
	I think occupations are more densely packed with men for other reasons other than competence.
	Like what?
	Oh, Brian and I have already been here.
	Women are strongly encouraged not to be educated, and that's only something that's been combated for them.
	They're strongly encouraged to be educated.
	Very, very recently.
	That is something that's been combated.
	How recently?
	I would say within the last fucking 30 years.
	No, the last 30 years.
	They've been running campaigns that women need to go to college the last 30 years.
	Why do you think that's really quick?
	Just one quick stat here.
	Since it's either 1979, 1980, women have been going to college more than men.
	So women who graduated in 1980 are now 65 and they're retired.
	So that's an entire workforce generation of you've had women who have been participating in college graduates.
	And much better educated.
	Graduating with degrees from college since the 1980s.
	You guys just made the argument that the Vietnam War wasn't that long ago, but the 1970s, it's suddenly like stale old history.
	You said 10 years ago.
	I do think that within the last 10 years is when it has become more socially pushed that women should be educated.
	I'll just go ahead and grant it, right?
	They're still not going into STEM fields.
	I disagree with that.
	I think there's more women in the world.
	I also can stay.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Yes.
	STEM fields.
	Med school, STEM.
	Well, here's the thing.
	Even if I grant that medical is, we have to take STEM fields as all STEM fields.
	Yeah.
	Okay, but it's a very important part of STEM.
	Science, technology, engineering, mathematics.
	That's what's going to be.
	They're not going into those.
	They're not going into those fields.
	Why?
	Because they have no interest in them.
	Yeah, I think another big part of it.
	If it's not true, then why is it that they're actually decreasing their participation in STEM?
	Why?
	Women?
	Yeah.
	I truly don't know what to tell.
	I'm sure that you have some stats to, you know, like these aren't stats which are particularly controversial.
	It's either you're going in to get a degree in STEM or you ain't.
	Okay, sure.
	From my perspective, I mean, I can only speak on anecdotal what I've experienced.
	I'm a college student right now.
	The majority of men I am friends with are not STEM majors.
	The majority of women I'm friends with are STEM majors.
	Yeah, fucking right.
	Yeah, fuck.
	I'm sorry.
	I do feel the need to point out that every time.
	What a crock of fucking horseshoe.
	Every time something doesn't align with what you believe.
	What the fuck of fucking horseshit I've ever heard.
	The men, the women that you know are all going into STEM.
	What are the fields that men are going into?
	Poli-sci.
	I have friends in Econ.
	I have friends in English.
	I have friends in writing and literature.
	Which are women going into that are STEM fields?
	My brilliant roommate is a biology major.
	She's double majoring in biology and history with a, I don't know what her minor is.
	I have more female friends in biology.
	I have a female friend in chemistry.
	I have some female friends in writing and literature.
	You know what?
	I'll even grant all this too, even though I think you're full of shit.
	You're more than what are you going in for?
	Writing and literature.
	Ah, and what are you going in for?
	Psychological and brain science.
	I guess she's pre-med.
	I was in photojournalism.
	Ah.
	Interesting.
	College?
	I didn't.
	Into my content.
	But what were you going for?
	Kinesiology and Dietetics.
	Okay.
	Health and nutrition.
	Okay.
	Computer science.
	Uh-huh.
	So.
	So, one.
	It's just not.
	There's one.
	I'm going into STEM.
	I'm doing the med.
	I'm trying to go to med school.
	Supposed to be psychiatrists.
	Yeah, but that didn't work in your favor.
	That is not a STEM field.
	That did not work.
	Psychiatry has to work.
	Yeah, you just heard what I said.
	Psychology is not a STEM field.
	It's a pseudo-scientific nonsense.
	Psychiatry.
	It's about understanding psychiatric medication, which is heavily.
	What is it called?
	Psychiatry?
	Oh, you said you're going in to be a psychiatrist.
	Or some other kind of doctor.
	I'm still open to other specialties.
	But right now, what are you in for?
	My major?
	Yeah.
	Psychological and brain sciences, which is a BS.
	Do you know what pre-med school is?
	You have to take a major such as this to eventually get into med school.
	Let's tell this to my chem professor.
	Yeah, this is unbelievable.
	By the way, it's common sense.
	It seems to be there's like a pretty crazy gender ratio.
	I think it's like 55, 45.
	So it might actually parse just because of the gender ratio.
	No, but it can't be possible that I'm telling the truth.
	I still don't believe it.
	I just don't believe it.
	Okay, I do think that it is important to.
	Sorry, my major, it's a bachelor's of science.
	It's a bachelor in bullshit.
	I'm required to.
	It's a fucking psychology degree.
	Bachelor of bullshit.
	Okay, can I say something?
	Yeah, you can say whatever you want.
	I'm supposed to take science classes.
	I have to take a chemistry sequence this year, a biology sequence the next year, physics sequence the next year.
	All right, let me ask you a question.
	You're a second year?
	I'm a first year.
	Oh, you're a first year.
	You just started.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	What year are you?
	I'm a third year.
	And your literature?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I think historically you are correct, but we might be seeing a new future with all the independent women.
	Who knows?
	No.
	They're all in the middle.
	They ain't seeing a new future.
	They're not going into STEM fields.
	They're not doing it.
	No, I think mostly women, a lot of them tend to want to do more nurturing things in life, whether it's professionally or just personally.
	So some don't join the career field because they became mothers.
	They drop out of their family.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So a lot of women.
	But I'm just talking specifically about STEM versus non-STEM when it comes to men and women.
	Absolutely.
	And they're just not going into STEM fields.
	Is medicine STEM?
	Yes.
	Is psychiatry medicine?
	No.
	Yes.
	Mediators are doctors.
	They have MDs.
	They go to medical science.
	The thing is, it's like study all the same stuff.
	They're doing.
	Here's the thing, right?
	It's like...
	They're prescribing medication.
	I agree that they're doing prescriptions for medication, right?
	But as far as me considering psychiatry not quackery, just like psychology, I still consider them both quackery.
	I consider them pseudo-scientific persons.
	That's an opinion, though.
	Like, what does the internet say?
	Why don't we just say that?
	It's like actual statistics of that.
	I think medical and psychiatry, psychology, even, and teaching doctors.
	Yeah, I know.
	And teaching.
	I think those are all nurturing careers, so it's still not STEM.
	It's not like plain math.
	It's not like computer science.
	I feel like those statistics are still less female.
	Yeah, I just, yeah, I still consider even psychiatry based.
	Unless specifically, like there's it's specifically about neuroscience and you're mapping out the brain or something like that.
	You have to study medications and how they affect the brain.
	I'm sorry, I do have to move on just for the sake of time.
	Really quick, Savannah, you had circled that too.
	Women do not have equal rights to men in the USA.
	Why did you say that?
	Well, my perspective and what I was thinking is that women not having a choice of abortion in some states.
	That was where, and it just comes down to not being able to have bodily autonomy.
	So besides that, anything else?
	No, not necessarily.
	I actually don't even understand that one.
	Like, women can't have abortions, but neither can men.
	Sounds like equal rights to me.
	Yeah, but men aren't being told that they...
	Can men have abortions?
	No, but they could have vasectomies and they're not being forced into that.
	Can women have their ovaries fried?
	Can they have hysterectomies?
	Are they allowed to have their tubes tied?
	Yes, they are.
	So the thing is, like, men can't have abortions.
	Women can't have abortions.
	Sounds equal.
	What's unequal about that?
	Okay.
	This is like gay marriage.
	Yeah, they're always like, well, two men can't get married, you know, or two women can't get married.
	Who could marry a woman?
	It's like, it's so bizarre to me because I always think on the equality thing, it's like, how is it if you have men who can't have abortions and women are not allowed to have abortions, how's that not equal?
	Somebody explain that to me?
	From what I, how I was thinking about it, is that men are able to make health decisions about their health and the things that are happening to their body.
	But it's just like straight men can't marry men and gay men can't marry men.
	That's equal.
	If men can't get abortions, women can't get abortions.
	That's equal.
	Like, that's what I've never understood the argument for equality either.
	Okay.
	I just never have.
	If it's in gay marriage, same shit.
	Yeah.
	Well, I can't marry a man.
	It's like, I can't either.
	I think because we're talking about equal rights, that would have to, that relates to a comparison between men and women.
	So you would have to assert that men possess a right that women don't.
	In this case, women possess a right in certain states that men don't.
	Obviously, though, men, either men can you would have to have either men can prevent women from getting abortions or men can force women to get abortions, neither of which is the case.
	Neither of which is the case.
	So it sounds like it's equal right to me.
	Like even if it was the other way around, you could say if abortion is legal, okay, well then I guess men could get abortions and women could get abortions, but it it would be equal the opposite way too, right?
	Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
	All right.
	Women are oppressed in the USA, to which Lola, you said you think women are oppressed in the USA.
	Savannah, you think women are oppressed in the USA?
	Courtney, you think women are oppressed in the USA?
	We'll start with Courtney.
	Courtney, why is that?
	I think since antiquity, women have not been able to be represented fully.
	And so when first wave feminism came by and granted us the ability to have equal property rights after marriage, it's like that enabled women to be able to divorce.
	And because the only other two reasons for divorce under marital law was wait, wait, wait, hold on.
	I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just for the sake of moving things along properly, the statement is women are, not women were.
	So you're talking about historical inequalities that you believe exist.
	So now it's women currently oppressed in the United States.
	Okay, okay.
	My apologies.
	Yeah, I believe that this is kind of a more metaphysical standpoint, but I think that women are oppressed by their birth clock by not by taking up.
	I'm just saying there's a lot of pressure on women.
	How's that a metaphysical claim?
	And how would that be a oppression?
	But most importantly, how is it a metaphysical claim?
	That would be.
	Wouldn't that be an ontological claim?
	She's watching too much of your stuff, Andrew, and she's heard you say metaphysical.
	Yeah, but that's a, I mean, you're just talking about being here, right?
	I'm looking for the word, but it's not a direct physical oppression.
	So, okay.
	It's like an oppression of nature.
	I'm trying, it's an oppression that women are so pressurized to find that partner before they're 35.
	It puts a lot of pressure on us.
	And I also believe because of that, women oppress each other because we are in competition by the time we're 35.
	It creates a very chaotic landscape for dating.
	So then, who are they oppressed by?
	By other women.
	I don't know.
	No, it sounds like they're oppressed by nature and their own desires.
	Yeah, that literally sounds like you're just saying we have a biological clock that functions.
	If we want to have children, we have to do it within the confines of that biological clock.
	And so that creates like competition, maybe?
	I don't think that's the government oppressing anyone.
	No.
	Yeah, I'm not saying the government.
	It just says, are women oppressed?
	Well, that was women of the world.
	Oppressed usually means like is somebody oppressing them.
	Yeah, there's an implication there.
	There's a bit of an implication there.
	Okay, so also, Savannah, you also circled that.
	How are women oppressed?
	After listening to the conversation here today, talking about how men have allowed women to have what they have from their benevolence, I think that I wouldn't circle that after hearing your opinion because it changed how I feel considering that.
	Yeah, I do agree with you after considering it.
	Good.
	Okay.
	And then, Lola, how are women oppressed in the USA?
	The same answer as my other one.
	Looked down upon.
	What I said before in response to the risk.
	They're looked down upon.
	Looked down upon, taken less seriously, less opportunity.
	Less opportunity?
	It's the same conversation we just had.
	I think that if women are taken less seriously, then they're less likely to be offered opportunities.
	In DEI America, huh?
	Yes, in DEI America.
	It's crazy.
	DEI America is purely performative.
	It's not how companies actually operate.
	It's for show.
	I see.
	So help me out here when we're talking about oppression, when you say social oppression.
	Sure.
	I mean, again, I don't even think that oppression is necessarily the word that I would directly go for.
	But I do.
	Where would you go for?
	I would probably default to looked down on.
	So not oppressed.
	Sure, but I mean, my assumption of the question was that this would fit the category.
	Okay.
	I don't see how.
	Okay, fair enough.
	All right.
	Let's see.
	One sec.
	Hold on.
	And wait.
	We're going to skip there.
	There was one here that I thought was interesting, but I cannot find it.
	There's also other questions on the left.
	No, we're not going to do those.
	Here, I'll just do a few from here.
	Shona, you say men should provide and protect.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you have a sort of traditional gender expectation on men?
	I won't like, again, I don't believe in police.
	Yeah.
	I don't believe in like policing men on what they should do.
	Like as a man.
	But your own preference.
	Yeah, I'd prefer a man who would provide and protect.
	Or no, not provide, not financially, like support me fully, but I'd say protect more so.
	Protect.
	Okay.
	Appealing men to men for force?
	Just pointing that out.
	But when you say protect you, do you mean like, for example, he should observe the sidewalk rule?
	So he should walk closer to, you know, the cars are barreling down.
	He should walk closer to where, so he could, I guess, in some hypothetical, you know, he gets hit by the car instead of you.
	Well, those aren't even examples I would like think of that come to mind.
	I think it's just more like instinctually just like having that attitude.
	Okay.
	But you will keep your last name or hyphenate in marriage.
	And what about your children?
	Will they hyphenate?
	I'd probably hyphenate and they'd probably have his last name.
	But like also within a relationship with a man, like obviously there's certain expectations of like from that men have for women to be like feminine and stuff like that.
	And I guess like that's the woman's role in that dynamic in my personal preference, like dating life.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	Hmm.
	Okay.
	Is there anything else that I find interesting on the questionnaire?
	Past should not matter.
	We'll just do that.
	Past should not matter to which, let's see.
	Lola, you agree.
	Hold on.
	Melissa, you agree.
	Savannah, you agree.
	Courtney, you agree.
	Past should not matter as it relates to body count.
	I guess to make things simple, going around the table, past should not matter.
	Starting with Courtney, then, I guess, what's your body count?
	I think in today's era, woman promiscuity is looked down upon and it can have real-world consequences.
	So I will not be answering that.
	What do you mean by real-world consequences?
	Real-world consequences.
	In the biblical days, it used to be by any women promiscuity, they were killed.
	And today's in modernity.
	And yes, in modernity, it's not that way.
	I'm working my way to that.
	Thank you.
	It's that people might not accept you for a job.
	People may not date you.
	It's even appearing on this podcast that poses that risk.
	It's like it's of judgment.
	It's reputation disparaging.
	Judge me.
	All right.
	What's your body count?
	It seems like you'll be a good sport and answer the question.
	Into the mic?
	Into the mic.
	I'm going to be honest.
	From like 18 to like 22, I don't know.
	I hooked up with friends a lot.
	Lost count?
	Yeah.
	But since 2021, it's been like seven.
	Okay.
	What do you think it was before 2021, though?
	I was having fun.
	It was like, I don't know, the friends that I went out with and stuff.
	It was ballpark.
	Oh, oh, the number.
	Oh.
	Total.
	Let's just ballpark the total.
	30.
	Okay.
	What about you?
	I've lost count too, but I would say in the ballpark of 30.
	Ballpark 30?
	Probably like 13-ish.
	13-ish, okay.
	Four.
	17 and 19.
	17 and 17.
	Four.
	Okay.
	It's an asterisk.
	All right.
	What about you?
	One.
	We got married very early.
	One, okay.
	Felicity, what about you?
	Two.
	Doesn't it bother you that your husband?
	He's a little bit lady.
	No, I kind of find it flattering that he settled down for me.
	Okay, there you go.
	All right.
	And Shona, BC?
	Oh, body count?
	Yeah.
	Zero.
	All right.
	Good times.
	Good times.
	You think the guy who you're currently dating could be the one?
	I'm not dating him.
	We're just seeing each other.
	Like, getting to know each other.
	Like, doesn't dating imply relationship?
	No, no, I don't think so.
	I think so.
	We've not even gone on a date yet.
	I don't know.
	Some people view dating as like exclusivity, but I don't know.
	Just depends on you, I guess.
	Okay.
	I think dating is a strong term, but maybe, maybe in the future.
	I don't think I'm going to be ready for a relationship for a long time.
	To meet up and see each other.
	We've not had dates so far.
	But you're seeing each other.
	You're hanging out.
	It's not a situationship.
	We're just talking right now.
	If you meet up with a friend, it's a play date.
	If you meet up with a lover.
	Potential lover that is also a play date.
	Okay, I mean, by that standard and sure.
	I don't know.
	Just getting to know him.
	I don't know him.
	Like, we're not that close or like close to being in a relationship yet, which is where I'm drawing the distinction.
	But maybe one day, who knows?
	All right.
	I'm going to let some of the roast session come through.
	Chore XD donated $69.
	Thank you, Cha.
	Wonderful stream tonight, boys.
	World-class interrogations, as always.
	Was expecting to see Amaranth being dismantled tonight, but oddly found the two of them to be quite pleasant.
	Still hate sex work.
	Any response there?
	You didn't say.
	I hate it too.
	I just like the money from it.
	Wait, sorry, repeat that.
	I hate sex work too.
	I just like the money from it a lot.
	I don't, you know, enjoy the concept of people feeling like they have to.
	Yeah, this is.
	No, this is an AP.
	Yeah.
	It's an AP Chrono diamond out.
	Yeah.
	There you go.
	We have Cha again.
	Chore XD donated $69.
	I hate to bring it back to Chair 7's story, but I have to ask, did you withhold your daughter from your ex-husband?
	Did he actively seek contact with her that you put a stop to?
	No, I did not withhold our daughter from her father.
	I think he's irreplaceable.
	Wait, I forgot if I did.
	Was he paying you alimony?
	Did I ask that?
	He was not.
	No.
	John Sport?
	He was not paying child support or alimony, you know.
	Thank you, Vader.
	Thank you, Chao.
	Women can't even give us that one thing where it's like clearly war is like worse for men.
	They won't even give us like one intersectional, like, wow, this is a dimension of intersectionality where men suffer more.
	No, even in war, women are the victims.
	More so than men.
	Who said that?
	I think Earlier, I said both are victims.
	I never said women were suffering more.
	And then, after having a conversation about it, I said by the metrics I was explaining to that men do suffer more during war.
	But you're saying that I never ceded that point.
	But you know what you're doing here is imagine a girl like it's jumped, you know, that jumped walking down the street at night, stranger danger, and you know, graped.
	And I say to you, you know what?
	Yeah, that's bad, but one time a girl grabbed my ass and I was essayed.
	Seems a bit dismissive of the severity of the victimization of the woman.
	And I'm prepared to say here that a woman who's been like stranger raped, that's way more severe than like the one or two times some girl grabbed my ass.
	It was, I was technically sexually assaulted.
	Obviously, what's your point?
	Well, it's this sort of diminishing thing you're doing.
	Did I diminish men's suffering during war when I said that men suffer more during war?
	What about this dimension of female victimization?
	Well, we both said that we should take women's suffering into account all while like establishing that men die more during war and that's the worst thing that you're doing.
	Right, but why then I literally agreed with your guys's points and you're trying to say that I didn't.
	Like it's really interesting.
	Well, no, I think I think it is interesting.
	I'm trying to like talk and have a conversation in good faith when I said it's a com it's a topic that I wasn't very educated on.
	I wasn't aware of the statistic that men died at much higher rates.
	And once you weren't, you don't need a statistics.
	You don't need a study.
	I wasn't aware of the fact.
	It's just not something I thought about much before.
	Just to be clear, you weren't aware of the fact, as it relates to warfare, that more men die than women?
	Until tonight?
	I never really thought of that.
	Until tonight.
	All I wrote down, all I wrote down on the paper, to be clear, was both our victims.
	But when we've had a conversation about who suffer more, I literally said, okay, I agree with what you're saying.
	Men do suffer more.
	But hold on.
	And you're trying to say that I didn't.
	I don't understand.
	Until November 9th.
	I said my mind was changed and you're like out here.
	Hold on.
	Until November 9th of 2025, you didn't know that men die more in war than women?
	It's not something that I ever thought about.
	I didn't think about the death toll when I was writing, when I was answering that question.
	I just thought about like all different kinds of suffering.
	And Andrew changed her mind.
	Ender changed your mind.
	So.
	What is there to be confused about?
	I mean, he thinks it's common sense.
	Have you not been exposed to like even any sort of like animal or non-fictional war stories, like even in high school or elementary school, junior high school, you never took like a, they didn't teach you about World War I, World War II.
	Of course, I know about World War II.
	Like, was it women who were getting trench foot?
	Was it women who were getting mustard gassed?
	When I wrote down both are victims.
	Have you ever seen a historical photo of World War I or World War II?
	Yes, I have.
	When the men have their eyes bandaged or sorry, when you see photos of like, you know, bandaged eyes, is it like a bunch of like Tiffany's and Tracy's or is it some John's?
	And there's probably photos of women going through horrible things during war as well.
	Again, all I wrote down is both men and women were victims during war.
	I wasn't even necessarily thinking strictly about like murder during war.
	I was thinking about all different kinds of suffering that both experienced.
	But when we started to compare it, I literally made that.
	I think it's just the desire to be like fair to everyone and politically correct that a lot of women have these days.
	When they see, like, they don't want to be like impartial to like someone else who's suffering, even though a statistic might say something.
	It's just how they are.
	It's okay.
	It's just reality.
	But you agree that men are the primary victims?
	I said that like 30 times and I'll find you.
	It's crazy.
	Kate, do you have any hot takes as it relates to dating?
	I feel like, you know, we didn't get too many notes from you, so I'm just curious if you got any.
	What are your hot takes, you know?
	Well, I actually do think that body count and history can matter a lot because it can tell you a person's sense of judgment.
	If they make good decisions on who they're dating, and if they just callously give away their affection to everyone, you have to wonder how much it's worth, you know, like their time and everything.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Anything else?
	Or if anything comes up?
	Do you have anything?
	Yeah, you got an interesting thing.
	She's dating more than I have.
	She's convinced me of this.
	It's not quite dating, but it's like spoiling kids.
	I think I've always thought it was bad.
	And then she was like, well, for a girl, it's actually not that bad.
	For a guy, it is.
	And I thought about it, and I was like, actually, I think that tracks.
	She spoils our niece.
	And, you know, she was explaining it to me.
	And it was just like, now she won't be impressed by money or all that.
	It'll just be actually if she clicks with that person.
	Yeah, she won't be like going the guy who has a nice car, the first guy she sees, because it's like, oh, yeah, my family already has it, whatever.
	Versus, like, we don't spoil the nephews because we want them to learn hard work.
	Yeah.
	Got it.
	Cool.
	We're going to let some more chats come through.
	Charles, thank you, man.
	Charles Sterling donated $69.
	543 in World War II, 8 in the Vietnam War, 13 in the Gulf War, and 166 in Operations Iraqi and Enduring Freedom.
	Tens of millions died in wars and conflicts since 1945.
	True.
	It's true.
	Thank you, Charles.
	Appreciate your message.
	We have Vader Senpai.
	Vader underscore Senpai donated $69.
	Also, morality is objective.
	The universe doesn't care about your feel fields.
	Deus Valt.
	God bless you, Andrew and Brian.
	Y'all are doing the world a great service.
	Vader Senpai, appreciate it.
	By the way, Andrew is coming back.
	The pizza's here.
	Guys, get a roast in here at the end of the show.
	The message nine four donated sixty nine dollars death is not the only trauma men face in war that is true Injury to death ratios are usually around five to one.
	Any trauma you can point to a woman facing one can easily point to a man losing limb.
	Getting PTSD, etc.
	That is true.
	That is true.
	Thank you, Krogis.
	Appreciate it, man.
	Justin, Justin Martin's donated $69.
	Chair 6, you may want to stick around and come back tomorrow.
	Andrew may need your help with a jar.
	Ah.
	That was a big one.
	That was a bingo.
	That's number one.
	Thank you, Justin.
	Appreciate it.
	We have Mr. Meow.
	And Meow donated $69.
	Chair 1 needs to understand that the exceptions don't make the rule.
	With her view on victimhood of war.
	The kinds of suffering I described that women can go through during war are not exceptions necessary.
	Anyone else want any?
	Okay.
	You don't want no pizza?
	No pizza?
	Fasting kids.
	Your macros, you're tracking your macros.
	Fasting kids.
	Oh, I remember the story about.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	We'll get into it.
	Did you know?
	You don't have to.
	I'll just have one after the show.
	Thank you then.
	We can talk about that later.
	Let's see here.
	Thank you, Mr. Meow.
	We have based Thor.
	Thank you, man.
	Based Thor donated $69.
	Chair one, just shut up and look pretty.
	Chair two, three hundred and four.
	Come dumpster chair three, cuck pimp, chair four, stupidasso, chair five, or not a nate, a three at best, chair six, big muscle, labia, chair seven, put away dat food, chair eight, evil bish.
	What does that mean?
	Stupid dasso.
	I don't know what the one about me means.
	Okay, all right.
	Vado underscore senpai donated $69.
	You've noticed when men and women debate, men typically debate from a top-down overview of reality where women tend to debate from within themselves.
	It's always about them.
	They are the center of reality.
	Anyone want to respond?
	None of the women wanna agree.
	I'm the center of reality.
	Well, there you go.
	All right.
	We have Robert.
	Another one.
	Double.
	I'll have to double fist it.
	Robert Tanner donated $1,001.
	I feel like I'm an answer.
	Let me know if I can help more Brian.
	Also, looking at you, Andrew.
	Thanks, you guys, for all you do.
	Let me know if I can help more Brian.
	You know, I think we need a little hat trick here.
	Just why you already.
	Wait.
	He did that.
	No, he already did the hat trick.
	I mean, you could do a triple double champagne.
	Wait, triple, double?
	No, it would just be triple.
	I sorry, it's been a while since I took math class.
	We need a triple champagne with the pizza, I guess.
	Can I get another champagne bottle, please?
	Thank you, Robert Tanner.
	You're a brave and a decent man.
	He's a pioneer.
	He's a fucking legend.
	Your friendly chatter donated $69.
	Greetings.
	Young airmen here.
	Miss, during times of war, our job is to make sure the innocent men, women, and children don't get hurt.
	Feminism doesn't exist in war, only your safety and freedom, mom.
	You really so polite about it.
	I like the greetings.
	Thank you for.
	Sorry, I'm trying to figure out the champagne bottle here.
	That was your friendly chatter.
	Thank you for that, man.
	And then this is for Shona.
	Happily curious guy donated $70.
	Shona, how?
	Why?
	Do you refute Shiva Puranu et al., Hindu doctrines, dictating in Hindu marriage, Dharmic Viva?
	Man has absolute, ultimate, and irrefutable authority in the marriage, and not the woman.
	Because the Shiva Piranha does not, like, dictate everything in Hinduism.
	What does?
	It's not one of those, like, religions that has, like, I mean, today at least, a lot of rigid laws and rules.
	Like, you could acknowledge across different religions, there's like more liberal forms of every religion.
	That's kind of what I follow, right?
	Not every Christian strictly follows all the Ten Commandments.
	Why didn't they $69?
	Amaranth, is this the same husband that in 2022 you told the internet abused you and stole your finances?
	Like that was tongue-in-cheek.
	We've been together 11 years, so it has to be right.
	We have Charles Sterling.
	She was away at the table when that came up.
	We have Charles Sterling Charles Sterling donated $69.
	Andrew, good to see you again.
	W for Brian and W for Andrew, R.I.P. Charlie Kirk.
	Does anybody want champagne?
	Same.
	I'll pour it down.
	Yeah, if you can pour it.
	Put your cups over, guys.
	Anyone want more pizza?
	Anyone want more pizza?
	You can fill it up.
	Iron Man Underscore 960 donated $69.
	This is for PTSD is permanent.
	Sorry, Andrew.
	It is not something you can put behind you.
	But men are hit harder with it in war than women.
	Ask a Vietnam veteran if he still has nightmares.
	Welcome Viet Vet home.
	Look, perhaps that's true, but it is something which you can live with, something which you can cope with, and you can put much of it at least behind you.
	Dealing with trauma, you could say that about any trauma.
	You could say any trauma is with you forever.
	Fine, I'll concede that point.
	It just doesn't hurt my argument at all.
	The truth is that it's still better to be fucking alive than dead.
	And so if that's the case, and you can at least deal with post-traumatic stress disorder and learn to cope with it and put at least most of it behind you or deal with it in life.
	How's that not a superior position to death?
	Don't Taiwanese people, they can handle their liquor?
	Do you want to just want to shoot from?
	I don't really drink that much anymore.
	Do you want to pass your cup down?
	Oh, yeah.
	I think it's right there.
	Andrew, if you want to get it.
	I was getting it.
	I was getting Brian some for Kate.
	Yeah, sure.
	We'll fill it for Kate.
	All right.
	We have some more coming through here.
	We have JC.
	Thank you, man.
	Appreciate it.
	JC donated $69.
	The most entitled gross and lying woman is chair four.
	That's even with the internet's puppy star who spoils her niece with nasty money.
	Teaching her well for sure.
	That's hard.
	Oh, I know.
	Do you want to respond?
	There you go.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	Anybody?
	I have no problem with people thinking that about me.
	Can you get some, Andrew?
	Oh, you're just going to drink from this, right?
	Oh, you poured it all out.
	Did you pour some for you?
	I guess we'll do a double cheers for Robert.
	No, there's still some.
	There's still some in there.
	Cheers, Robert Tanner.
	Salu.
	Thank you.
	I feel so left out.
	Wait, hold on.
	It was Clain who sent in the first champagne pop, wasn't it?
	Clain?
	The Twitch guy, right?
	Robert Tanner.
	Hold on, Robert Tanner.
	You asked if there's anything you could do, Robert Tanner.
	You said, let me know if I can help more, Brian.
	Do the hat-trick.
	Do the hat-trick.
	Here, where is it?
	Lavandovsky for that!
	If you want, if you want.
	You don't have to.
	Finest performances.
	Adoni Elaha, he donated $69.
	Chair number five, based legend.
	What does that mean?
	That's you?
	Yeah, but what is base legend?
	Chair five just means you're awesome.
	It means you're awesome.
	They like you.
	They love you.
	Thank you.
	Maybe you are the shit.
	I had a lot of homies watching tonight.
	We have just a few notes from Melissa to get through.
	So final call, guys, on the roasts.
	We're going to get this wrapped up.
	We're going to get this wrapped up in 10-15 minutes.
	10-15 minutes.
	I got to, man.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I forgot enough sleep.
	I mean, we're pretty much there.
	Ladies and gentlemen, I just wanted to point all of this out.
	Thank all of you for this wonderful conversation this evening.
	Thank you to the entire whatever staff and the whatever audience for hosting me.
	I have a debate in the morning.
	10 minutes, Andrews.
	I got it.
	I got you.
	I have to, bro.
	But I have a debate in the morning, right?
	I'll be back here for that tomorrow.
	I appreciated everybody and all the conversation.
	I really appreciate it, guys.
	Thank you for coming, Andrew.
	Of course.
	Thank you for coming.
	We'll see you.
	We'll see you tomorrow.
	Have a great night, guys.
	Nice chatting with you.
	Thank you, bye.
	All right, guys.
	We're almost wrapped.
	10 minutes, 10, 15 minutes.
	We just have a few more notes to get through.
	Also, I hate Spyro.
	I hate him.
	Oh, Spyro.
	He actually, anyway.
	He's Greek, so he's worthless.
	Oh, shit.
	Mr. Plight, Felicity, if you can take the seat.
	Speaking from a veteran experience, women are kept away from the meat grinder that is war while young boys do horrific things to others.
	Do we do a Jake cameo really quick?
	You want to do a quick cameo?
	Little cameo from Jake.
	He's in the studio.
	You might as well quick cameo.
	Here, take that seat just for a sec while we get the Jake Rattlesnake cameo.
	There he is in all his Australian glory.
	What's up, Kerr?
	There he is, reality-based.
	Boom.
	Good to see you, man.
	Good to see you.
	Hope you've been doing well, man.
	Did I finish?
	Oh, go watch Blackhawk Down and saving Private Rhine and think about having to do that daily as your friends die.
	Mr. Plight, thank you for that.
	Appreciate it.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, guys.
	$69 TTS.
	Get it in.
	Oh, my goodness.
	This guy is.
	He is on fire.
	Robert Tanner is on fire.
	Oh, my goodness.
	He's a brave and a decent man.
	He's a pioneer.
	One more champagne.
	By the way.
	Robert Tanner donated $1,001.
	Here you go, guys.
	Enjoy the night.
	Thanks again, Brian and Andrew, as well as the panel.
	Brian and Andrew, reach out, love to support more.
	Thank you, man.
	Robert Tanner, your fucking legend.
	Thank you so much, man.
	Really appreciate it.
	Is there a champion?
	Is there?
	Maybe check on the side.
	Check on the side.
	There should be.
	There should be.
	Yo, Robert Tanner, you're a legend.
	Thank you, man.
	Really appreciate it.
	We have.
	Oh, I already did this one, right?
	Iron Man on this call.
	Did I just do this one?
	$160 donated $69.
	$69.
	This is different.
	And I am a vet with PTSD from the war I served.
	I am in therapy with the Vietnam vets we have group every Monday.
	I promise you, IT does not get easier from seeing it with them.
	I am not taking away.
	Okay.
	Andrew says, okay.
	Yeah, well, I mean, like, how do you argue with that?
	Obviously, there's PTSD victims too.
	Okay.
	All right.
	We have finishing off the show with Melissa's notes.
	You said that you don't know if it's appropriate, but there's a story that's exemplary of what it's like getting with a bodybuilder lol.
	Recently, you hooked up with this.
	Let's have.
	Do you want to tell the story?
	Do you want to tell the story?
	I hooked up with this guy who I've hooked up with a few times over the past few years.
	And I don't know if anyone's going to get this.
	We smoked beforehand.
	I had cotton mouth.
	I wanted to go down on him.
	And so he went to put coconut oil on his dick.
	And I was like, that's way too many fats.
	So you have to watch the macros.
	And I had no idea that I said anything weird until he was like, he's not a bodybuilder.
	He was like, are you kidding?
	I was like, what?
	I already ate for the day.
	That's it.
	Why'd he just have you spit?
	I heard it's a good source of cotton mouth.
	I don't need some water.
	He just got diddy with it with the baby oil.
	Should have gone diddy with it with the baby oil.
	Should have.
	What's the class?
	What?
	Just not in your mouth.
	Yeah, I mean, look, I took one for the team.
	This one.
	This one.
	I think it was like a 30-minute window on calories.
	It was a bit.
	All right, Jake, pound this entire bottle of champagne.
	Oh, he's actually.
	Jake.
	Not the whole thing.
	I gotta be responsible.
	There you go.
	Oh, my question was: so it was coconut oil, right?
	But what about his because I hear that's a good source of protein, the seed, right?
	But you would have to finish the deed before you get this.
	You don't do that.
	That's just the deed before you get the seed.
	Yeah, it's a common sense.
	That's nice.
	Oh, you're just saying, would I. Would like a that's I would imagine that has more protein than it does fat, which is lower in calories.
	Do you know the macro split on I don't.
	I don't know the macro split on cum.
	No, I don't.
	Oh, what annoying.
	I'm sure it varies with diet, though.
	You know?
	Oh, yep.
	But you fulfilled your macros for the day.
	So you said that things you look for in a man, you say ambitious, goal-oriented, secure with himself, receptive to communication, able to teach you something, present alternate perspective to your own.
	Okay.
	Apparently, you appear dominant, but really you want someone who's capable of dominating you.
	Yeah, the only way you're letting your guard down is if you can call the shots and make you feel protected.
	Okay.
	You think constant texting is ridiculous?
	You don't like the expectation of constant availability.
	Sure.
	You couldn't care less if a guy likes other girls' pictures, like on Instagram or whatever.
	Okay.
	And I was just looking up topics and stating my opinion on them because you asked.
	Okay.
	Let's see here.
	You say it's a waste of bandwidth to revolve your life around finding a partner.
	However, it's important to be open to the unexpected.
	Okay.
	I think that's pretty much it for the notes.
	Was there anything you wanted to add?
	Okay.
	How much of a gorilla do you really need?
	You must need a.
	No, it's not even.
	I'm actually more attracted to intelligence than anything.
	But it has to be a little bit more.
	So you want it to dominate you intelligently?
	Dominate you intellectually.
	Intellectually and physically, yes.
	So you need a gorilla.
	Sorry.
	Is Jake in there?
	Because Jake's fit.
	He's a fighter.
	He's really fit.
	He does Thai.
	Kickboxing or boxing?
	A little bit of dumb shit at kickboxing.
	Okay.
	Boxing.
	Would you, I mean, do you like Australian guys?
	I do.
	Yeah.
	Oh, Jake.
	Let's talk.
	At the end of the show, I'm coming in clutch as a wingman here.
	Thank you, Rob.
	What do you think, though?
	I think it's a good thing.
	Jake is attractive when I know of him so far.
	Are you single, Jake?
	I'm single.
	Oh.
	Have you won Death by Snoosnu?
	What does that mean?
	It's like this futurama.
	The futurama characters, they encountered this like Amazonian tribe of alien women who are like gigantic, super ripped.
	And they kill the men by having sex with them because they're so like crushed their pelvis.
	If it's my fate, then let it be.
	Okay.
	Anyway.
	Guys, Davey, topics you want to hit on super quick?
	I don't know.
	I'm not sure what you guys have hit on already.
	Yeah, I think we talked about a lot.
	We talked about how Australian women are just these bogan degenerates.
	You guys talked about that?
	That's true.
	I just made that up at the end there.
	Just kidding.
	Australian women are.
	Do you like Australian women?
	No, they're the worst.
	They're the worst.
	That's why he's here.
	You know, exactly.
	So I had to get out.
	You know, actually, I've met some Australian gals and they've been quite nice.
	Not gonna lie.
	Maybe I gotta say that.
	Everyone's got this perception of them that they're like beach girls, surfer girls, you know, beach bums, but it's just not the case, you know?
	A lot of them are sort of like rednecks, but Australian.
	No, really, but they yap.
	You know, they're yapping.
	They're yappers.
	Like, me and my friends have this rule: like, when we're overseas, we can always tell Australian girls from a distance because of the way that they yap.
	Interesting.
	Interesting.
	Any final thoughts from any of the other panelists before we wrap this up?
	Final thoughts?
	Final thoughts?
	Did I get everybody's notes?
	Final thoughts?
	We ever did World War I or World War II years?
	Oh.
	Name three countries.
	Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia.
	Three countries, like just any?
	Yeah, just three countries.
	Okay.
	You can't repeat from the previous.
	Okay.
	China, South Africa, and Ukraine.
	Into the mic, into the mic.
	Peru, Japan, United States.
	Would you be down to arm wrestle Jake right now?
	Yeah.
	Wait, yes?
	Wait, wait.
	Let's clear the.
	I'm going to be going.
	Oh, we're literally about to wrap.
	But I didn't.
	I just figured we were.
	Are we wrapping it up in the next yeah?
	Like five minutes?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Oh, my.
	Okay.
	Final thoughts there?
	No?
	Okay, cool.
	Let me see if there's any chats that came through.
	We'll let them come through.
	And then.
	Okay, we have this one.
	Thank you, Pro Shoghi.
	I appreciate it.
	Pro Shotty donated $69.
	I had to subscribe tonight because it was so badass.
	But I will say I did join a call with Amaranth for advice and she gave real feedback.
	I had issues with dating and she was real about it.
	Love y'all.
	Aw, that's actually one of the biggest requests, not just like on stream, but like on the OF side too, is just guys coming and wanting some positive words and advice when they're going through hard times.
	Kind of like there's one guy who was going through Huster's University and he was trying to find his place in life.
	He was talking about the inner circle to me.
	And he was just like, can you just tell me that I can do it?
	That I'm not going to be a failure in life.
	So like, yeah, it happens.
	A lot of people do ask for advice.
	What'd you tell him?
	Said you can do it, King.
	How do you know, though?
	What if he can't do it?
	Well, what does that help, though?
	His life will be better if he thinks he can, either way.
	If it helps him get through the, you know, get through the tough spot in life, you know?
	Yeah.
	Oh, did we finish three name three countries?
	Oh, you said ones that weren't named already, right?
	I'll just try it.
	Japan, Argentina, and I'm not good at history.
	Like, geography stuff.
	China, whatever.
	Fiji.
	Geography is not my thing.
	Fiji, the Maldives, Madagascar.
	See, where's the country?
	Russia, Egypt, New Zealand.
	Estonia, Zimbabwe, Djibouti.
	Estonia said.
	Anyway, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon.
	Okay.
	We have this from JC.
	JC donated $69.
	It was asked earlier while she was gone.
	But Amaranth, why did you stay with your abuser?
	Or was the wild crying show months back just fake?
	My crying is never fake.
	All right.
	Those are real intense moments of turmoil in relationships.
	Difference between us, though, is I'm always live, at least historically.
	So, you know, emotions happen, but, you know, marriage is in just cheery.
	I did.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That was cool.
	Yeah.
	I mean, wouldn't wish for it, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Do you wish he died?
	Yes.
	I would have too.
	Yeah.
	Well, then the, I guess the concern is I've had this interaction with this person.
	I've inflicted damage to them.
	Are they going to be vindictive?
	Will they try to seek out revenge?
	And it's going to be.
	I mean, that would be my thought, anyways.
	I asked the inspector that, and he said, which doesn't really give me much comfort, but it's nice to know, I guess.
	It's like, he said, statistically, that never happens.
	He's been doing it 21 years or something like that.
	Yeah, because I asked him, like, if one of these guys eventually, you know, are they going to.
	And he's like, we've never seen that in Houston and all that.
	That makes sense.
	I imagine it's rare.
	It's like, hey, you're committing a crime.
	The other guy got the jump on you.
	So, all right.
	Let's see here.
	I think that's pretty much it for the chats.
	If one trickles through, I'll be sure to get it.
	But I do want to say, or we need to do the final things.
	Okay, guys.
	Final things.
	Like the video if you enjoyed the stream.
	If you want to become a master debater, debateuniversity.com.
	Felicity, why don't you just stand in the back somewhere so you can wave or something?
	Yeah.
	Let's see.
	Oh, let's do the pull up Twitch super quick.
	Guys, twitch.tv/slash whatever.
	If you're still watching over there on Twitch, it's our secondary platform.
	We simulcast on there, twitch.tv slash whatever.
	Drop us a follow, drop us a prime sub just here at the end of the stream if you enjoyed the stream.
	Oh, Cajun, it's bugged, boys.
	Thank you for the prime Cajun.
	Really appreciate it.
	Okay, guys.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	So, GG to the panel.
	Last call, hit the like button, please, on your way out.
	Also, please leave a nice comment once the live ends.
	Helps with the algorithm.
	Thank you for tuning in tonight.
	You could have been anywhere in the world, but you're here with me.
	I appreciate that.
	Thank you to everyone.
	You guys were very generous tonight.
	Thank you, guys.
	Thank you to everyone who super chats, donates, supports the show.
	We're going to be live again tomorrow.
	Tomorrow, Andrew's going to be debating Naima from Jubilee round two.
	It's going to be big, guys.
	Gonna be big.
	A lot of people are going to be tuning in for that.
	It's going to be wild.
	It's going to be insane.
	She's going to lose.
	We're aiming to go live approximately 3 p.m., but you know, sometimes it's 5, 10 minutes later.
	So tomorrow, 3 p.m. Pacific here, live on the whatever podcast.
	Lastly, any girls who want to be on the show, if you want to be on the show, you can DM out whatever on Instagram.
	If you can make it to Santa Barbara 07s in the chat, I want to see 07s in the chat.
	Thank you guys so much.
	Thank you for tuning in.
	Thank you to the wonderful panel.
	You guys were dope.
	It was one of the funner shows we've had this year.
	So you guys were wonderful.
	Thank you guys.
	Another some heated moments there after the show.
	It's all it's all water under the bridge.
	You guys were wonderful.
	I know, again, we had disagreements, but I take none of it personally.
	Neither does Andrew, by the way.
	So thank you guys so much for coming.
	Appreciate it.
	And I just want to make sure I'm not screwing anybody over who sent in the chat.
	Nope, that's it.
	Okay.
	07s in the chat.
	I said that.
	Leave a nice comment, guys, once the stream ends.
	All right, guys, good night.

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