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Oct. 27, 2021 - Viva & Barnes

01:33:58

Sidebar with Chase Hughes - Viva & Barnes LIVE!

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	Two seconds early, people.
	We are early, therefore on time.
	I believe it was Mike Tyson who said that everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face.
	Everyone's got a plan until they find a fat, disgusting tick in their dog's face.
	I'm picking up the kids from school today, and one of the kids is petting the dog and then immediately starts freaking out because she saw what looked like a bot fly sticking out of Winston's face.
	It was covered in some fur, and it was a big, fat, disgusting, parasitic tick.
	And we immediately drove down to the vet for them to remove it, and now we have the tick in a vial upstairs, which is ironic because it's a vial tick in a vial.
	And we're trying to decide whether or not to...
	Well, we're trying to see if there's a place that will test for Lyme disease, because if there isn't, we're going to set it on fire and burn it and send it to hell.
	So, that's what happened this afternoon, and then, which is why we had to do this at 7.30, I was asked to give the opening statement of a municipal candidate in the Westmount elections, the Westmount municipal elections, because due to current regulations, the individual could not give their own speech and attend indoors at Municipal Hall.
	And I had to be sure not to say what I really thought, because I could not let my own hang-ups and issues become...
	The subject of the evening.
	So I gave this individual's two-minute intro and then I blitzed back home on my bike to do this.
	This is going to be an amazing stream, people.
	They're all amazing.
	They're all amazing sidebars.
	And whenever I say this, I feel bad because it's almost as though it compares it to a previous sidebar.
	Each sidebar is like a child of sorts.
	You can't compare them because they are all unique and beautiful in their own way.
	We've got Chase Hughes from the Behavior Panel.
	Body language.
	They don't go by body language experts.
	They go by behavioral manipulators.
	Okay, I'm joking.
	That's not really what they go by.
	But we got Chase Hughes.
	You probably all know him.
	We already had a sidebar with Scott Rouse.
	And this is another member of the team.
	And man, I've been watching Eric Hunley's interviews with Chase and a bunch of their stuff.
	It's amazing stuff, and we're going to get into some amazing stuff tonight.
	So, without further ado, I'm going to bring in...
	No, I'll bring in Robert first, because then...
	Robert, how are you doing?
	Good, and let me know if it's working in here.
	I can always move, if need be.
	You're smooth and moving.
	Now I'm going to bring in Chase, but then I'm going to swap him into the middle.
	Look at that.
	Voila, there we go.
	Chase, you've been a lawyer sandwiched.
	All right.
	High five, guys.
	There you go.
	Well, kind of.
	Okay, so Chase, I mean, I think everybody out there knows who you are by now, but in the event that they don't, the elevator pitch before we start getting into the early childhood questions, then leading into the professional stuff that everyone out there is dying to know.
	Elevator pitch.
	Who are you?
	What do you do?
	And why do you do it?
	Thanks for having me on, guys.
	My name is Chase Hughes.
	I did 20 years in the U.S. military and became obsessed, absolutely obsessed, with human behavior.
	And I wound up writing, somehow, the number one best-selling book in behavior profiling, body language, and then persuasion and influence.
	And I kind of became obsessed with how much a person could be made to do in a short amount of time, narrowly focused on interrogation.
	And people all over the world how to do this stuff.
	Now, is it Ellipsis?
	That's the introduction of you going into the bar and describing what you're seeing?
	Yeah.
	That is one of the best introductions I've ever read to a persuasion book.
	Did you know you were going to write?
	I mean, when did that become second nature to where you walk in and you're assessing boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, 15 things at once?
	I think it was...
	I don't think it was a cliff.
	I think it was just kind of a slope to where just one day I started responding to behavior instead of knowing what I was looking at.
	So I could see the behavior profile unconsciously at that some point.
	I had practiced it enough to where it was what they call unconscious competence.
	And I think that was the big turning point for me when I didn't really see it anymore on purpose.
	Let's actually, two basic questions.
	If I may ask, how old are you?
	I just turned, or I'm 40 this year.
	Okay, you look very young.
	But you say 20 years in intelligence, and that has to put you at about 40. Childhood, where are you from?
	Where were you born and raised?
	Siblings, what did your parents do?
	And then how did you get into intelligence?
	I was born and...
	Kind of raised in Arkansas and moved to Texas when I was little and kind of got shipped to a little military academy when I was 11 years old.
	I was a rambunctious kid and then joined the Navy when I was 17 as essentially a high school dropout.
	I went to University of Hawaii for psychology and graduated Harvard with neuroscience degree stuff.
	By the way, was the military school voluntary or involuntary?
	It was involuntary, but I actually enjoyed it.
	I think I needed the structure at some point.
	That's how Trump described it.
	Trump said that he wasn't eager to go, but after he went, he actually enjoyed the experience and it was very educational for his whole life.
	Yeah, it's a great place to have been.
	Not a great place to be.
	Now, you say you were shipped there, so that's not because your parents were in the military.
	This was because at the age of 11, either your mother or your father or both made the decision that behaviorally you needed some behavioral readjustments?
	I did.
	I did.
	What could you have possibly done at 11 years old to justify that severe of a sanction?
	I couldn't.
	I was a good kid.
	I just couldn't pass any classes, so it was mostly an academic struggle.
	I was living in Houston and then shipped off to a military school in Mexico, Missouri, called Missouri Military Academy.
	So it wasn't something that you still need to assert the Fifth Amendment for?
	Correct.
	I've got to ask you these questions now.
	Is it full-time school?
	Like you're there for eight months or six months, day in and day out?
	Yeah.
	Well, spring break and Christmas, you go home.
	What did you think of your parents making you do that?
	I thought it was a huge mistake at first.
	And then I started developing a lot of camaraderie there.
	And I think the self-discipline aspect of it imbued this sense of pride very quickly.
	And I enjoyed that.
	Make your bed.
	Get up early.
	Started when I was 11. Wow.
	Now, what did your parents do?
	What were their careers, professions, occupations?
	So, my dad worked in the trucking industry.
	And he was the president of a trailer, like a giant dump trailer manufacturing company.
	And my mom stayed at home.
	And did her damnedest to take care of me.
	Any siblings, brothers, sisters?
	I've got a sister, yeah.
	I have a younger sister.
	You go into this school at 11, and you come out, is it, you do this for a full five years, or did you do this for one or two years and then go back to regular school?
	No, it was kind of a full-time deal.
	Now, I didn't know you could get into the Navy at 17. Your mom and dad actually have to sign basically a permission slip.
	I turned 18 on a ship, on a Navy ship.
	Now, was it a surprise?
	I had an uncle in the Navy.
	He was on nuclear submarines, all that jazz.
	And he loved it.
	But I always thought, man, you're out in the sea, you're in this tiny little space.
	What was that like?
	I did quite a bit of time at sea and I miss it every day of my entire life.
	I miss being what we call underway.
	So I miss being out there.
	You've never seen so many stars.
	I don't care where you've been where there's like, oh, it's a rural area and there's like not a lot of city lights.
	There's nothing like the middle of the ocean where like the nearest land is a thousand miles away.
	I miss that a lot and I miss the people a lot for sure.
	Chase, effectively, I'm understanding this.
	You're 40 years old.
	You have spent more of your life in intelligence and military stuff than you have not.
	You've effectively never left.
	You're 11 years old to present.
	Correct.
	Correct.
	Training intelligence people.
	Now, when did you start getting into intelligence itself and to everything that relates to understanding the mind, the brain, persuasion, body language, hypnosis, etc.?
	So I started learning body language.
	I was stationed in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and a girl in a bar in Waikiki Beach, the bar was called Kelly O 'Neill's.
	I hope it's still there.
	I don't know.
	But it had turned me down.
	So I asked her out and she said, no, thanks.
	So I go home that night and I Google how to tell when girls like you.
	And I printed off this massive stack of paperwork and got deeply involved with body language because I think I had social anxiety back then.
	And learning that I could see behind the mask that people wear, the fears, the insecurities, and all that kind of stuff, it made me realize, oh, they're just as screwed up as I am.
	So it made everybody a lot more approachable.
	So it was addicting.
	And then one of my best friends in the world, his name is Craig Wiberly, was killed on the attack on the USS Cole, the terror attack in the Gulf of Yemen.
	And they cited intelligence failures and operative failures, training failures.
	And I thought, well, they need to learn this stuff.
	And then I wound up going to these recruiting schools and Jason Bourne kind of schools.
	No BS.
	The schools were like, oh, you need a firm handshake, look people in the eye, use their name, touch them on the shoulder.
	And that was the extent of what our government had.
	And I thought, this is why my friend died.
	And I wanted to spend the rest of my life fixing that and making that more powerful and turning it from something that's a sales technique into something that's a weapon.
	The bar story was when you got interested in it.
	How old were you at the time?
	I think I was 18. Okay, so this is before you decide to go study.
	What do you say?
	You said you studied psychology at the Hawaii University.
	Hawaii Pacific, yeah.
	Okay.
	And then you get into this aspect of intelligence upon graduation.
	No, no, no.
	It was kind of a gradual process that started moving forward after a while.
	A lot of non-disclosure stuff.
	But in the end, my first job was chipping paint on ships.
	The ship is made of steel and it's rusting all the time.
	So you're scraping and sanding and painting.
	And I thought, I do not want to do this forever.
	I would much rather teach this cool thing that I'm passionate about.
	So that's kind of how that started.
	Does that Top Gun song ever work?
	Was that ever an approach in the bar?
	Or was that just left to cinema lore?
	I'm just randomly curious.
	I think that was cinema lore.
	I've never seen it.
	Maybe that only happens in the Officers Club.
	I didn't have access to that.
	All right, Chase, so look, not to oversimplify, you get into this to learn how to pick up women in bars.
	You then get interested in the study.
	You see how it can be used to, manipulate's always a very negative way of putting it, but to persuade.
	You see how you can do this to persuade.
	You're in the military.
	How much do you read?
	How much of an expertise do you need to get before the military starts to recognize you as anything of sort of an authority to bring you in for those purposes?
	I taught one course for fun.
	And there happened to be a powerful person in the room that brought me into that stuff.
	And within a year, I was teaching courses to the Army Psych Ops Command, Psychological Operations Command at Fort Bragg.
	So it was a very fast transition.
	Like, hey, we need these skills.
	And that was it.
	That sounds like a military agent.
	Like you're doing stand-up.
	For the military, except your stand-up is teaching.
	And then you get the military agent who says, we see something in you.
	Let's bring you in.
	And then you are in the world of intelligence and psyops in the government.
	Yeah.
	How much is it like James Bond?
	And how much is it totally different?
	Zero.
	If you talk to one of our team guys, which we call team guys, like a Navy SEAL, most of them sound like surfers.
	It sounds like you're talking to a ninja turtle.
	They're super chill, super laid back.
	You'd never know they're in the military at all.
	So it's very different.
	Now, see, I never view it like James Bond.
	Ever since listening or reading the book The Men Who Stare at Goats, I now look at the military and military intelligence like big kids with big toys and all the power in the world to do whatever they want.
	My question is, looking at you, Chase, I say, on the one hand, How does anyone trust you?
	And how does anyone trust the government ever again knowing the things that you know more than the rest of us?
	We now know what we now know.
	How does anyone ever trust you to be a good guy and not perpetually something of a government, I won't say a tool, but rather a tool of the government for the purposes of intelligence at all times?
	Well, I think we're all slowly becoming tools of the government.
	As a beginning.
	And I think the second part is I try to be as open as possible.
	Like if I'm on stage and I feel some kind of insecurity, I will speak it out loud.
	If I feel anything, I'll always do that.
	And the entire motto of my company is we rise by lifting others.
	And I think that the government is grossly incompetent in many things.
	I find it hard to trust the government as well.
	A lot of people do.
	They can't even run a post office.
	When did you get into hypnosis?
	Hypnosis, I was probably around 22. And that seemed like a magic key.
	So I started learning street hypnosis.
	And this is where you kind of walk up to a stranger at a bar or restaurant and kind of do the big dramatic thing where you knock somebody out and they're laying on the floor.
	And then I got into clinical hypnosis.
	And by the age of, I think, 28, I was a board-certified clinical hypnotherapist.
	And that was fascinating to me, just how powerful that was versus Sitting there on a couch with some dude scribbling on a legal pad while you're dumping out your thoughts, and how different the results were.
	Look, we just did a sidebar with Scott Adams last week, and I said, you know, hypnosis, maybe it's my own hang-ups, my own arrogance.
	I think it only works with people who want to get hypnotized, in which case it's a question of whether or not it's hypnosis or actually just giving people the...
	Permission slip they need to act out whatever it is they wanted to do in the first place.
	What is your take on hypnosis?
	Say street hypnosis to, I don't know, penthouse hypnosis?
	What are your views on it?
	Is it legit?
	Viva, you go into trance, into a hypnotic trance, four to five times a day without your...
	Consent or your awareness.
	It's the reason that we miss our exit or 10 minutes pass by and we pull into our driveway and we're like, holy crap, who was driving the car?
	How did I make it home?
	Okay.
	So we're trance machines.
	We are built to go into trance.
	And the only thing a hypnotist is doing is helping that or facilitating that natural trance to occur.
	So a trance is a mixture of increased suggestibility and increased focus.
	And that's all it is.
	So when you're in a trance, you're not deaf, you're not in a coma, you're not asleep.
	Some people say, oh, I wasn't hypnotized.
	And I could hear you the whole time.
	So there's a lot of misconceptions about it in the media.
	There's a ton of peer-reviewed research out there, mainly Stanford University.
	There's a guy there named Dr. David Spiegel who is really bringing this into the academic light and showing it with fMRI scans and stuff like that.
	Now, I mentioned to Scott Adams, which he was kind of surprised by, that I like hypnosis for certain kinds of witnesses, that it can help them prepare for testimony, because often the biggest mismatch is the witness knows a story, and the jury expects a witness to tell that story in a particular way that meets the juror's expectations, rather than the way a witness naturally would communicate it.
	And sometimes hypnosis can be a bridge between those two to make sure they honestly interpret what their witness is honestly saying.
	Do you think that makes sense or not?
	I absolutely do.
	And I've studied forensic hypnosis for probably 10 years.
	One thing you've really got to be careful with, with forensic hypnosis, or I'm just going to call all courtroom crap.
	You know, forensic hypnosis.
	But I think one thing you got to be really careful about is using any kind of leading questions.
	If a person is inside of a trance, it's pretty easy to create false memories.
	And it's pretty easy to just jam something, a memory in there that the person otherwise didn't have or wouldn't have.
	So one little leading question could destroy the entire process.
	If you have a hypnotist that does that and then they...
	The opposing counsel gets to review that, obviously, and says, well, you're an idiot.
	You hired a dumbass to do your forensic hypnosis, and there's implanting false memories in there.
	And have you done any analysis of, because I thought one case where they misused it was in the case of Saran Saran, where they did have this tendency to plant things in there that weren't necessarily originating from him.
	Have you ever looked at that case in particular at all?
	I have.
	I've spent 15 years looking at that case.
	And I know the psychologists who were involved there.
	And I'm actually, in two weeks, I'm publishing a documentary that I made on Sirhan Sirhan.
	So I think, absolutely, there were tons of leading questions.
	In the original hypnosis, you can listen to the audio recordings and say, where's your gun?
	Reach for the gun.
	You know you have a gun.
	Pull the gun out.
	Pull the gun out.
	Shoot the gun, Sirhan.
	They're wanting him to reenact this thing.
	And he's so suggestible.
	And keep in mind, some people are higher and some lower on suggestibility, even though we can all go into trance, Viva.
	If I come back to Virginia, I challenge you and we'll see because I've got a lot of issues to work out.
	So if you can help me resolve my crippling fear of death, I would very much appreciate that.
	And we will film it.
	Okay, we'll decide afterwards whether or not we publish.
	I'm reluctant to pull up the chat because I don't know what it means and I swear to you I don't know what it means.
	So I don't know if it's bad.
	Ask the question, did he complete his shellback initiation?
	Yes.
	What is it?
	What is that?
	Shellback, it's not a huge deal, but it's something the Navy takes pride in.
	When the ship crosses the equator, at the line of the equator, you go through this big ceremony where everyone dresses up like pirates, and you've got to run through this.
	It's kind of a fraternity hazing little thing where you've got to run through fire hoses and do stupid crap for an hour and a half, and then you're a shellback after that because you've crossed the equator.
	Sounds kind of like, what is that Coconut Grove place that...
	What's the Grove place?
	I think Ron Johnson talked about it in one of his...
	Bohemian Grove.
	Bohemian Grove, not Coconut Grove.
	Yeah, sounds a little bit like Bohemian Grove, just you have to be in a specific geolocation for it.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, so you're talking about Sirhan Sirhan, that he was uniquely suggestible and that some people are, and that makes them uniquely vulnerable to the wrong form of forensic hypnosis.
	Yes.
	It makes them vulnerable to all forms of hypnosis and manipulation.
	People become more or less suggestible all throughout their lives.
	You have a relative that dies.
	You get tons of stuff coming in the mail that says you owe $100,000 back taxes.
	All these life events can make us more suggestible, which is why we see these super intelligent CEOs that are socially smart, but they join a cult.
	Like they joined some ridiculous cult somewhere.
	And we're wondering how the hell could that ever happen?
	That happens because our suggestibility is a fluid state.
	Some people are fixed a little bit, but we fluctuate a whole lot.
	And that's where people get talked into doing adult films and stuff in California when they're 18 or 19. And it happens right after a life event, right after this major transition out of high school into college.
	So our suggestibility is a fluid thing for sure.
	laughs Yeah, that's what Eliza Blue was mentioning.
	I mean, when you really study and review people who, and to yourself, has experienced the different forms of sex trafficking, often it's coercion.
	That's the subtle, persuasive coercion that's the most effective means.
	It's not a gun to the head.
	It's not necessarily holding the passport.
	It's not the things people imagine it being.
	It's not, you know, being locked up in a basement always.
	it's at the most common means is somebody who's very good at manipulating their particularly vulnerable people at vulnerable times into a life of conduct that they wouldn't voluntarily choose.
	All right.
	So the, now, you know, Obviously, there's only some things you can talk about in the military.
	Once you're out of the military, how are you applying your skill set?
	Well, now I'm just teaching it most of the time.
	I get called every once in a while for what I call a concierge interrogation.
	That sounds fancy, doesn't it?
	Your pronunciation is very good.
	It's concierge.
	I'm joking.
	Yeah.
	So I get called out to do that every once in a while, but now I'm using it to train people and companies will call me out to reboot their sales team.
	So like their mentality, their limiting beliefs, their levels of confidence and charisma and influence and persuasion skills.
	That happens more often than anything else is I'm kind of rebooting sales teams.
	But to one thing that you were saying, Robert, That a person can actually be made to do things that are against their will very quickly under hypnosis.
	Even up on like, you go to a comedy show, like the people up on stage, you can absolutely be made to do something against their will, even though every hypnotist will tell you that you can't.
	The difference is that, like, let's say I was some creep bag, douche bag therapist who wanted some woman in my office to get naked or something like that.
	She would never do this in her normal life, sitting in an office and just stripped down.
	But a hypnotist could say and get her to visualize a whole bunch and train her to visualize really exceptionally well over the course of just 15 minutes and then say...
	It's like you're now at home.
	You drop your keys into the bowl by the door.
	You walk into your bedroom.
	It's been a really hard day.
	And now into your bathroom.
	And now you're in your bathroom getting ready to get in the shower.
	So now it is within that person's will.
	But it's not within their will in this context.
	So asking the will question is not as important as asking the consent portion.
	So can you be hypnotized without your consent?
	Which is an absolute 100% yes.
	Chase, I'm bringing this back to the government, to intelligence, to the military.
	On the one hand, you recognize or you say that there's a certain element of incompetence in the higher ranks.
	But on the other hand, there's a great amount of power, the power that you're describing right now.
	And what I'm led thinking is how many times in the history of intelligence has the military used this capacity on individuals to carry out certain acts that they would have otherwise never carried out?
	And I'm thinking of Sirhan Sirhan right now, because if he is, in fact, an easily influenced individual to plant thoughts and manipulate behavior, presumably he was from the very beginning.
	I don't know if the mold is the right word, but might have made him an easy target to be manipulated by whatever intelligence agencies out there wanted to manipulate him to get him to carry out certain deeds.
	So if you can't discuss it or disclose it...
	In any specificity, I'm not wrong in thinking this happens relatively frequently in the government.
	I can disclose it.
	Because it came out in a Freedom of Information Act document on accident.
	So, in the late 1950s, before Robert Kennedy was shot, and we're talking about Robert, not JFK for anybody watching, that...
	RFK was shot at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, in the kitchen, actually.
	And several years before that, the CIA is terrified.
	The government is terrified.
	There's people in North Korea, American soldiers, that are saying, I hate my country now.
	I no longer want it.
	And we're terrified that they have some kind of brainwashing technology.
	The director of the CIA then...
	I'm trying to make this short.
	I'm sorry, guys.
	So the director of the CIA at the time, his name is Sidney Gottlieb.
	He starts this project called MKUltra, which is this mind control program.
	Let's find a truth serum.
	Let's figure all this stuff out.
	Nothing I am about to say is theory.
	It is all proven in actual documents released by the CIA.
	So this is not Chase Hughes' theory.
	This is actual documents.
	So one of the things that they did, it was a sub-project of MKUltra, was this thing called Project Artichoke.
	And please look this up if you want to.
	And in Project Artichoke, they are specifically asking, there's a document there, specifically asking, we need to develop a program to create a person who can assassinate, without their awareness or their memory, who can assassinate, quote, U.S. officials.
	U.S. politicians.
	With a Manchurian candidate alter ego personality inside of him.
	So I'll just leave that there.
	And that was just a few years before RFK was killed.
	I mean, it is literally the plot of Zoolander.
	Literally.
	And that's preposterous.
	Now, I was familiar with MKUltra to a very 30,000 foot overview degree because it has some Montreal McGill University connections.
	So when people tell me that, you know, we can trust the government, and I say no, no, but I say this to someone who's thoroughly and deeply involved in the government chase.
	So with that said, okay, digesting.
	Everyone out there, go look it up.
	Robert, it looks like you have something to ask.
	So, all right, yeah.
	So in that context, when you're looking at the Saran Saran case, what was your conclusion about the possibility that he was someone who had been influenced to be there that night?
	I would just about stake my entire reputation on it.
	And even Robert Kennedy Jr. and several other family members of the Kennedy family went down and talked to Sirhan.
	Spent hours with him at the Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego where he's locked up.
	And all of them said he's not guilty.
	Just imagine for a second walking out and meeting and having...
	Two-hour discussion with someone who shot your parents, who shot one of your parents, and then walking out knowing and proclaiming for the rest of your life that they're completely innocent.
	Pretty strange.
	But here's a quick fact for the case that'll make people want to go look it up.
	Maybe.
	Maybe you'll want to go look it up.
	Sirhan had an eight-shot revolver.
	It was a.22 caliber Ivor Johnson cadet revolver.
	Eight bullets in it.
	The first two shots, one hit on the ceiling and one hit a guy in the head who survived, and the guy's still alive and still, says Sirhan, is not the shooter.
	The guy who was shot in the head.
	It skimmed the top of his skull.
	Before the third bullet, a pro football player was holding him, Sirhan, and his arm down on a table.
	So he empties the rest of his gun.
	Seven out of the eight bullets are fully accounted for.
	They hit walls.
	They hit people.
	They hit some people in the stomach.
	The bullet got lodged in there.
	A guy in the leg and butt cheek.
	And all the shots in the revolver were accounted for.
	So all but one.
	So we have a total of seven shots where we know where it is.
	So one bullet we couldn't really make out where it was.
	But none of those seven from Sirhan's revolver hit Kennedy.
	And this is according to the actual LAPD investigators.
	Kennedy was shot four times at point-blank range from behind.
	And Sirhan is between four and six feet in front of Kennedy at the time of the shootings.
	Just an interesting little tidbit of information.
	So the idea would be that Sirhan did what he did.
	The theory would be that someone else did something that was unaccounted for.
	When does your documentary come out, Chase?
	And where are you publishing it?
	It'll be a couple weeks.
	It'll just be on YouTube.
	I always wanted to be like a YouTube documentary maker, so I just figured I'll just do this, my first one.
	Now, but what do you do if YouTube takes it down because it's, quote, conspiracy theory?
	Where are your alternate platforms for publication?
	I'll just put it up on my website and I'll host it myself.
	Okay.
	Go for it, Robert.
	Oh, sure.
	Speaking of YouTube and podcasting, how did you meet Eric Hundley?
	Eric and I met I think through a friend.
	No, he reached out to me and said he was here and he wanted to meet and I was going up to the Hampton Roads Police Academy.
	And doing some police training up there.
	And I invited him to come up.
	And we've been pretty close friends ever since.
	Wonderful dude.
	Chase, I'm letting out.
	You're going to get my baggage in this.
	A severe distrust of all things government.
	But once you're in the intelligence, does anyone ever get out?
	Could you ever decide to fully extract yourself even if you wanted to?
	Not you.
	Sorry.
	Speak in abstract terms.
	Could anyone or could one fully extricate themselves?
	From the CIA, from intelligence, if they ever so chose?
	100%.
	Yes.
	And now the question is, when you come in to be the concierge interrogator, this is because you are at the next level where they say, we've got something that we need your expertise for, but we have full-time people that you have trained, presumably, or not necessarily?
	No, this concierge interrogations are all civilian.
	So it's a company who's got a list of employees that are probably stealing stuff.
	And, you know, they've got weird employment laws in California or Oregon or something.
	And they need a confession in order to fire these people, basically.
	And how easy is it to get the confession?
	I average around 28 minutes.
	It's my average on paper.
	Well, 28 minutes to get a bona fide confession, not just to get any confession, correct?
	How do we know how accurate your extracted confessions are?
	Accuracy would be measured by the person who committed them, committed the information, or committed the crime.
	But yes, they all are about 28 minutes to 38 minutes.
	So what could be some tricks to dodge your confession and inquisition tactics?
	The most effective thing you can say to any interrogator for the rest of your life that kind of shuts down any interrogators is, I don't remember.
	The Hillary Clinton defense.
	Yeah.
	Or Anthony Weiner.
	Yes.
	Take your pick.
	So I don't remember is extremely hard for an interrogator to overcome.
	It's the hardest thing.
	It's the hardest hurdle for an interrogator to jump over.
	And I can tell you now that if I was ever, if you are ever called into a station sitting with an interrogator that looks like a dopey amateur, you're in trouble.
	If it looks like a professional, it's probably a new person with not much training.
	So I would always, always just stay silent.
	Chase, I've seen interviews with you, so your demeanor, as far as I've seen it, has always been similar.
	But has your demeanor always been slow, methodical, calculated, sympathetic, or did you change your demeanor over time in order to be more effective at what you're doing?
	Not to be more effective at what I'm doing.
	But yeah, this is me 24-7.
	I've never been rude to a person in an interrogation room in my entire life.
	Not once.
	And I've never even raised my voice.
	And I think it stemmed from the greatest leadership lesson that I've ever learned in my entire life.
	And that is that you can pick any single episode of Andy Griffith.
	And it will teach you a leadership lesson about how you have very recently screwed up at work or screwed up.
	You know, one of your employees got mad at you.
	You did something stupid.
	You lost your cool.
	Pick any episode at random and it can teach you a direct lesson that's applicable to what's going on with you.
	And I think that's maybe what I absorbed over time.
	Now, why did you leave the military?
	Well, I did 20 years.
	And I had to get out for some medical stuff.
	I found out when I was about 18 years in, and they let me do my final two years on shore duty, basically.
	I was in the Middle East and found out while I was in the Middle East.
	With that condition, they kicked me out of the Middle East.
	I had to be close to a hospital for a little while.
	Let me ask the question.
	A physical medical issue, not burnout type thing?
	Yeah, it was a physiological issue.
	To the degree you can go into detail, what was the Middle East like?
	Most of the Middle East is incredibly peaceful.
	I'm not talking about...
	If you look at Kabul, we see all this stuff on the media about it looking like a crap hole.
	Like, worse than Skid Row, kind of, like, just nasty.
	Kabul's prettier than most American cities, if you actually look at it.
	But, I mean, I spent a lot of time living in Bahrain, which is an island, you know, kind of off the coast of Saudi Arabia there.
	And, I mean, every place I've been in the Middle East, most places in the Middle East, like, I would think my kids are safer on the streets there than anywhere in the United States.
	Because they don't have those.
	I mean, like you take a kid in that country, they'll just cut your head off.
	So they're very respectful.
	Right.
	I was going to say, you may be safer, but I won't say for the wrong reasons, but for different reasons, which might not be congruent with liberties in the West as we know them.
	I mean, Singapore, probably the safest place on Earth to walk the streets at night, but that comes at something of a cost, which you have to make that trade-off.
	Security for freedom.
	Until the security, because of the freedom, actually becomes not secure nor free.
	I don't want to bring up the chat because it might not be totally polite, but it references looks.
	And Chase, you're a smooth, soft-spoken, good-looking guy.
	The question is whether or not everything you do...
	In your capacity that has made you the professional that you are, whether or not you could have achieved it if you looked a different way.
	And so whether or not what makes someone an expert has to do strictly with competence or dumb genetic luck, as it might be for you.
	I think that's a wonderful illustration of what a limiting belief is.
	So if I'm unsuccessful...
	I will attribute that to something that I lack and can't fix.
	It makes me feel instantly better about it.
	I've trained well over 17,000 people that are immensely and wildly successful.
	And my book's the number one bestseller in the world for, I think, that reason.
	I wrote the book I needed to read.
	So I can take a person that has zero good looks and through-the-roof confidence.
	And they'll get 10 times the results as a person who looks really good and has social anxiety and insecurities all over the place.
	Confidence always wins.
	I mean, look at, you know, the successful politicians are not the ones that are the best looking.
	They're the ones who are more confident, more direct, have more social skills.
	You look at the best salesperson in any Fortune 500 company in the entire United States.
	The top salesperson is not the one that's the best looking.
	It's not the one with the best tactics and techniques and procedures.
	It's the person with confidence, charisma, and through-the-roof social skills.
	They can talk to anybody.
	They can read anybody.
	Now, one of the earlier Super Chats was asking, how did you meet the rest of the body language panel, Mark, Scott, and Gray?
	So, I was doing a seminar in Toronto.
	Sorry, guys.
	I knew that Mark lived there, and I was a huge Mark fan.
	But I pretended like, oh, hey, it's two experts meeting for dinner.
	I tried not to be this huge fan when I sat at dinner with him.
	And so Mark and I got to know each other pretty well.
	And then I was teaching a seminar in Nashville, which is where Scott lives.
	And I called up Scott.
	And we made a pretend video of us getting into a fistfight and then sent that to Mark.
	And Mark thought it was hilarious.
	And then Greg and Scott knew each other.
	And I just for the first time in person met Greg about two months ago.
	But we've all gotten closer all the time.
	We're just exploding our little chat group all the time now.
	So that's kind of how it came together.
	When COVID started, we said, what if we just did one video where we just talk shop?
	And nobody's going to watch it, but it would be fun for us to do.
	No one's going to like it.
	No one's going to enjoy it.
	But let's just hang out for like an hour and then figure everything out.
	And for the person that said I was good looking, for a lot of time, these are not real.
	I don't have any front teeth.
	They've all been knocked out, and I lived a long time without front teeth.
	Hold on.
	How did they get knocked out, Chase?
	I can't talk about it.
	I can tell you for a long time, I was doing this stuff with no front teeth.
	And half of that time, I had like a dip in.
	When I was in the military, I had a big pinch of tobacco in my lower lip.
	Chase, hold on.
	I'm sorry.
	Can you not tell us because it's embarrassing or because it's classified?
	If you can tell us that much.
	It's A, embarrassing.
	But it did happen on an operation.
	And it was...
	It was a bad experience.
	I bit my tongue off.
	All my teeth came out.
	It was a bad experience.
	I took a knee to the chin.
	I'll say that.
	I don't know what it means as a human, but when you start that, I get an actual throbbing pain in my upper thighs.
	I get a throbbing pain in the veins in my leg.
	The idea of breaking teeth and especially biting your own tongue off.
	Well, that's interesting.
	I mean, that's fascinating.
	By the way, what was the concept that you referenced in that answer?
	It was finding an excuse for the failure.
	What was the term for that?
	Which one?
	In response to the answer, you said it was in terms of finding an excuse that makes you feel better.
	Limiting belief.
	I love that idea.
	Okay.
	So you meet the three guys, you start this channel that you think is going to be for your own entertainment, and it explodes.
	I mean, you're at...
	300,000 or are you over 300,000 now?
	We're about to hit 400 probably this week.
	It's nuts and it's amazing.
	And everyone asks the question, like you get four experts in a room and you get four experts doing something together and they're all experts in the same field.
	Are they not assessing each other, sizing each other up?
	How does that work dynamically when you get four, doesn't matter that you're men, but you get four experts in a room and in some way...
	Some might say, you know, some are jockeying for position, some are jockeying for clout.
	How does that dynamic work among four experts in any given field who are working together?
	I think especially in that field, you learn pretty quick that judgment is the number one top reason that people fail, especially in interrogation.
	Judgment will kill you.
	I think we're all such close friends.
	None of us are really actively reading each other.
	But I think it's something that happens passively for all of us.
	And I think the more you can read people, the more you realize that everyone's screwed up.
	Everyone's insecure.
	Everyone's wearing a mask.
	You know how they say the 10,000-hour rule is where you should be an expert?
	I hit the 40,000-hour rule.
	I've written the best-selling book in the world.
	I'm walking up on stage at a giant event just a week ago, speaking on stage with Robert Cialdini.
	I felt like somebody's going to know I'm faking it.
	I still have...
	You know, just the same internal dialogue as a lot of people.
	But what's changed over time, I think, is my relationship to it.
	That I hear it as fiction when someone else hears it as a fact.
	I have the exact same beliefs as anybody else.
	I'm not good enough.
	No one's going to listen to me.
	I'm not going to make a difference in the world.
	I'm not very significant in my field.
	But I started hearing those as fiction more and more.
	And I think that's the difference between you see people that are...
	Consummate experts and professionals are very confident in what they do.
	They have the same little self-talk.
	They may not admit it, but they have the same self-talk as everybody else, but they hear fiction.
	They're listening to the same radio station.
	One of them thinks it's a textbook, and the other one thinks it's a novel.
	It's some kind of a fiction thing coming in their head.
	I think that's the difference.
	That was a huge tangent.
	I apologize.
	Fascinating.
	Now, how many people don't ever experience that?
	Like, for some reason?
	From very early age, just for whatever reason, they don't have self-doubt.
	Is that really unusual?
	It is very unusual.
	So there's a few explanations.
	Yeah, I was curious.
	What would be the explanation?
	So childhood experiences, our brain works on evidence.
	So the reason most people don't feel...
	Like they have permission to be super confident or super successful.
	There needs to be a chain of evidence here.
	So people who have a childhood that has a stream of successes behind it start to develop this confidence over time.
	Parenting and what your parents get you to focus on as you're growing up is another one.
	And then we have another one that's just somebody goes through a life-changing experience, a car accident, a loss of a loved one, and then everything changes in just a moment.
	And I think at the very tail end of that would be a narcissist sociopath area.
	Right, right, right, exactly.
	Well, how about, I mean, I just immediately reflexively thought Dunning-Kruger, like people who are so, no, I won't say so unintelligent, but people who are sufficiently not self-aware that they don't actually recognize the limitations of their own experience.
	And so they think that they're constantly experienced enough to do things.
	As an effect, we always hear the Dunning-Kruger effect.
	How prevalent is it?
	How much of society do you think it affects without people actually knowing they suffer from it?
	I think it's most people.
	And I think it just speaks to that phrase, the more you know, the more you know how little you know.
	And I'm sure that's the case with the law as well.
	I obviously can't speak to that.
	But I think there's a spectrum here.
	I'm trying to get the center because my camera is mirroring.
	So there's a spectrum where on one side we have Dunning-Kruger.
	A person thinks they're an expert.
	They actually believe they're an expert.
	The dude who reads like three body language articles and then changes his LinkedIn title to body language expert really thinks they're an expert.
	And the other side of that would be the effect that we had like in Catch Me If You Can.
	The movie about Frank Abagnale, he's hyper confident, extremely overconfident, but he knows he's faking it and he's completely fine playing a role.
	And I think a role is really what defines a lot of us.
	Because just think of the difference.
	For you watching right now, if you don't make a bajillion dollars a year, you can't go into a Hermes bag store where they make leather bags.
	The cheapest bag in the store is probably $15K.
	And walking into the store, you'd be self-conscious.
	You would start seeing suspicious facial expressions, even though they weren't suspicious.
	You'd be walking in there like, shit, shit, shit.
	Everyone knows what I'm thinking.
	Everybody knows I can't afford anything.
	Everyone knows I'm looking at this price tag.
	And then you're thinking that they're laughing at you in your head.
	All of this internal dialogue is going on.
	But then imagine if someone like your boss gave you the company platinum card and said, hey, take this down to Hermes.
	Get me the most expensive briefcase you can possibly find.
	We have a VIP coming in.
	And you put the card in your pocket and you walk into the store.
	You have the same clothes on.
	Your hair is the same.
	Your face is the same.
	The only thing that's changed is that card in your pocket and nobody in that store can see it.
	No one can see it, but they can see that your behavior is wildly different because of a role that you've given yourself, and that card has given you permission to behave differently.
	So you're not seeing suspicion.
	You're confident.
	Your posture is different.
	Everything is wildly different, and the results, most importantly, that you get from other people are wildly different because of that role.
	That was a long answer.
	No, but that's phenomenal.
	You might know the reference.
	I don't know the original expression, but it's the four stages of knowledge is unconscious ignorance, conscious ignorance, conscious knowledge, and then unconscious knowledge.
	Am I mangling it?
	No, I think that's it.
	Listening to you talk, it's an amazing thing.
	I know that these are examples that you use to perfectly illustrate what...
	I've never thought of it that way.
	You know, like the idea of when you started your story, I'm saying, okay, well, just pretend you have the money when you walk in, and you'll view it differently.
	Convince yourself you have the money, and you'll view it differently, and you won't see those made-up interpretations.
	But the idea of the credit card in your back pocket that you know is there but no one else does, it's a perfect illustration.
	So, I mean, how does the layperson actually do this on their own in terms of giving themselves the confidence they need to succeed in life?
	There's a lot you could do.
	But what if you went online right now to like Canva or one of those apps where you can like design your own phone wallpaper, desktop wallpaper, and you change your phone wallpaper to no one knows if the platinum card is there or some kind of phrase that reminds you no one knows.
	Nobody knows.
	No one has any idea.
	So especially meeting people for the first time, they're only just going to go off of where you are in this moment.
	And we're so tied to needing proof and permission that if you act hyperconfident, they're going to just assume you've been that way your whole life.
	And they're going to assume everyone listens to you and everyone responds to you because no human will really do that.
	Our minds are so small that we think no one would act that confident without tons of permission and a whole lifetime with people listening to them.
	So they automatically assume we're using social proof in a one-on-one situation.
	Because they assume there's hundreds of people out there who've already followed your lead.
	Yeah, how much is projection the basis of fear?
	In other words, the sense that people are concerned about something they imagine.
	My brother and I used to tell the joke to each other.
	Yeah, they are laughing at us.
	It was that kind of routine.
	You know, when somebody's randomly laughing and you project, of course, that doesn't do with you.
	But how much is that what a lot of fear is, is somebody projecting something they worry about themselves onto a situation that is likely not that situation?
	It's a whole lot of it.
	And I think a lot of it, like when we're thinking, I can't do that.
	I'm not good enough.
	I don't have enough qualifications.
	Well, let me go home and watch three more YouTube videos on confidence.
	And then I'll come back out here to Whole Foods and ask where the broccoli is with a little bit more confidence.
	But I think in the end, when you're thinking the thoughts like, I'm not good enough.
	People are going to laugh at me.
	I'm going to get hurt.
	You know, I shouldn't be confident.
	You're already delusional.
	Those are delusional thoughts.
	So just have the delusions in the other direction.
	You're already full of it.
	Just be full of it in the other direction.
	Okay, a question that I know everybody's asking, and if they haven't asked it, they're going to ask it after this.
	You've worked with the worst of the worst, or I say worked.
	You have interrogated the worst of the worst.
	You've seen the worst of the worst, I presume.
	Broad, sweeping generalization.
	What percentage of the population, I know there's not an official diagnosis, but what percentage of the population would you qualify as being sociopathic or psychopathic in the sense that everyone has to watch out for it?
	And what do they have to watch out for?
	I would say 18%.
	Really?
	That's scary.
	That's a little bit higher than I was hoping for.
	Well, and now I'm going to ask a question.
	I just listened to Never Split the Difference.
	Why did you pick 18%?
	I have no idea.
	I just made it up.
	The funny thing is, it never split the difference by Chris Voss.
	They said when you pick a statistic, don't pick a round number like 10, 15, or 20, because that's reflexive.
	Pick a specific number.
	Although, I appreciate you said 18, I just go for 1 and 5, which is close to where I'm at, although I'm much higher just because of my own projection.
	But sorry, so how do you get to that number and based on your own experience, how?
	So I think that there's a huge difference between everyone who's watching this.
	You've met a psychopath.
	You've met a sociopath.
	Probably dozens of them.
	Most of them are not dangerous.
	Most of them are not going to turn into killers.
	And most of them also don't know that they're psychopaths.
	They didn't choose that life.
	And the interesting thing is that a psychopath will grow up and see their psychopathy as a deficit.
	So they're going to see other people making these facial expressions.
	They're going to see other people doing this emotional empathy.
	And they're going to think, I haven't figured out how to fake that yet.
	And everyone else has got life figured out except for me.
	I need to go practice.
	I need to learn about behavior.
	I need to listen to people more often.
	So they view that typically as a deficit that they have.
	And how much, like my experience of dealing with...
	Victims of domestic violence and other cases like that, the more you dig into the psychology of the people doing what we consider horrible things, is that almost all of them suffered some sort of abuse, some other thing.
	I mean, that they were starved emotionally at the youngest possible age, and that their neurochemistry just didn't develop the way a healthy child would had they been given proper emotional caregiving.
	What's your take on that?
	Yeah, it can start way before that.
	Most psychopaths are born in the wintertime because just the fact of a mother being sick while the child's in the womb can be enough trauma to that baby to trigger that DNA to start expressing itself in that way.
	And sometimes you can have the genes for psychopathy, but it may not express all the way because of how somebody's raised or brought up.
	And by the way, Chase, It's an interesting point.
	I was just having this discussion with my wife because I was listening to the radio and they're talking about COVID vaccines and whether or not pregnant women should get the vaccine with the standard risks.
	I didn't give the disclaimer.
	No medical advice, no legal advice.
	And so people's concerns for not taking the vaccine are obviously related to child development.
	My wife, who's a postdoc PhD in neuroscience, says that might be true.
	But one of the other things that's true is a woman getting...
	Infected or getting sick with anything does translate into schizophrenia or mental disorders in the unborn child later on in life if certain hormones or whatever are triggered in the pregnancy.
	I'll ask her about the winter birth stuff.
	I didn't actually know that, but it totally makes sense because that's when people typically get viruses or infections.
	That's very interesting.
	That was the random tangent in terms of the issue about the vaccines.
	Two sides to consider in terms of pregnant women.
	Oh, where was I going?
	Chase, interrupt me so that you can carry on with what you were saying before I interrupted you.
	I apologize.
	So I think at the end of the day, when we're talking about a lot of this stuff, there's a lot of cognitive biases that we're experiencing.
	Just for example, if I called someone out on that limiting belief in the comments, I don't know who it was, I have no malice, I would hug you if I could.
	Another limiting belief that will layer itself on top of that is it's easier to hate me and call me an idiot or a dumbass.
	And, like, I don't know what I'm doing because that's easier to accept.
	We don't have any cognitive dissonance at that point.
	So it's easier to accept that than saying, oh, yeah, maybe Chase is right.
	Maybe I do have some limiting beliefs and I need to fix that.
	That's probably not going to happen.
	Okay, so how do you spot, to the other part of Eva's question, how can you spot or defend yourself and recognize sociopathology?
	We want to do it quick.
	So that's...
	Before you're in the trunk.
	It's on Unconscious knowledge chases what you just imparted right there.
	Yeah.
	Well, first off, you want to make sure you get it as soon as possible.
	I teach courses to women on how to spot narcissists, manipulators, psychopaths.
	And keep in mind that these people did not choose this disorder.
	I'm not making them into heroes or anything, but I'm just saying they're not sitting there plotting at home on how they can screw you over.
	95% of them.
	So at this point, if you're telling a story to someone that you're just meeting and it's really exciting and really emotional, you're getting into what you're saying.
	You should see some reflection of happiness or enjoyment on the other person's face.
	You should see mirroring of facial expressions.
	If I'm saying something about my aunt just got diagnosed with some kind of illness or something happened to one of my family members, you should see some facial expressions that match that.
	Second, and I teach this to employers, and when I teach employers how to hire good people and hire the right people, because that will save company.
	A ton of money.
	But just asking somebody like, what were the challenges in X, Y, and Z?
	Your last relationship?
	Your last place of employment?
	Your last fill in the blank?
	And you'll hear someone say like, it's someone else's fault every time.
	You know, they had this, this, and this wrong.
	They screwed me over.
	They're lying to me.
	People stole my sandwich in the break room.
	You know, whatever it is.
	Complaining about it.
	And then if they're complaining about it, you do a follow-up question.
	And that follow-up question is, Well, yeah, I get that.
	I mean, what would you say you learned most about yourself during that experience?
	And then you'll hear people say that you'll hear a bad response would be like, well, I learned not to trust people or I learned not to work for crappy companies.
	And a good response might be, well, you know, I learned that I'm kind of vulnerable to this and I'm sensitive when X, Y, and Z happens and I learned to be very...
	A little more scrutinizing when I go to work for a company.
	I want to make sure I know what I'm getting into first.
	So just asking simple questions like that.
	The final thing is, narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths are likely to have a lot of friends that don't live in town.
	They're in another country.
	They're in another state.
	We talk all the time.
	We're best buddies.
	But all my best friends, no one's here.
	I don't have any really local nucleus of friends.
	And obviously, these are generalizations.
	None of these make someone a psychopath.
	This is not from some diagnostic manual of psychology.
	So these are generalizations.
	But once you start seeing them add up, I'm not asking you to diagnose anyone.
	I'm asking you, it's probably a good idea to leave.
	Here we've got Chase took me from pepped up about gaining confidence to wondering what I'm a psychopath in two minutes.
	Preston, well played, sir.
	I'm sorry, Preston.
	This is where I say being a lawyer will expose you to the extent you're not the psychopath, sociopath, lawyer, which a lot of them are.
	When you have to pick your clients...
	This is exactly what you go through every time.
	You get a cold call or a cold email.
	First, you pick up some details from the email or the call.
	You schedule a meeting.
	And this is what you have to go through within a half an hour to determine, is this a file I want to take a chance with?
	Or is this a client who is going to be the biggest, you know, who's going to be a soul-crushing source of stress?
	And you make the mistake twice.
	And then you go back and say, well, what did those two clients have in common?
	And you learn quickly through your own mistakes.
	But it's an interesting thing where you say it's not their fault, and it's not a question of building them up as heroes, but it's a question of being empathetic that, yeah, they're born this way, they're trying to cope or whatever, but at the end of the day, it's self-preservation, and what they were born with may not be fair, and it may be whatever, but you've got to protect yourself at all costs.
	The worst thing we could do is view empathy as weakness.
	Empathy is a weapon.
	Empathy is a very good weapon to understand who the person is I'm speaking to and understand the behaviors of that person, the feelings of the person I'm talking to.
	I want to bridge into the hero's journey.
	Speaking of interviews, when I was in law school, I was...
	Your first semester, your second year, you do all the corporate law interviews.
	And I was actually only doing them to make money that summer, helping my little sister go to college.
	I had no intention of taking the job.
	But I made the mistake of answering honestly that question of, oh, you know, why did you leave Yale University?
	And I explained to all these corporate lawyers.
	I was saying, oh, I left because I left in protest because they were doing all this bad stuff.
	And they're sitting there saying, why are you trying to come to a corporate law firm if you're going to leave whenever you think there's something bad?
	It turned out they didn't offer me any jobs.
	I learned to change the answers.
	But speaking, you mentioned when we were at a recent event, the utility of the hero's journey, understanding that story and how you can apply it in a wide range of context for lawyers and others.
	Could you explain that?
	Yeah, so I think specifically, if you understand the hero's journey, A, it'll make you a good writer.
	Okay, we get that out of the way.
	B, if I understand the hero's journey, I can identify where a person is on the hero's journey.
	What is the hero's journey?
	Sorry, for those who don't know, what is the hero's journey?
	So the hero's journey is basically a story structure.
	I would type this into Google after this video, of course.
	But I would look this up.
	And it's got a process of how stories flow.
	And the interesting part is that you can almost look at any story and it follows the hero's journey.
	There's a hero there that's in his normal everyday life.
	He gets this call to adventure.
	He kind of refuses it at first.
	And then he finally goes through and he starts realizing, holy crap, this is way harder than I thought.
	And then magically he made some kind of a mentor, some kind of a helper.
	Someone's going to help him on the journey.
	He goes through all these battles, blah, blah, blah.
	And finally at the end, he returns to the tribe with the elixir or the magic sword that's going to kill the purple dragon.
	You know, whatever it is.
	They're returning with something sacred and something that's going to help others.
	Or maybe a new belief is what he returns with.
	And if I understand the hero's journey, and I've kind of made a study of it, I can see where A, a person views themselves, or B, since the one thing that every juror...
	You will ever see in a jury has in common is that they've been exposed to every single Disney movie, every single movie, book.
	They've been exposed to the hero's journey like thousands of times.
	Thousands of times.
	So that's enough to be readily identifiable, but readily identifiable on a subconscious level.
	So if I can convince the jury that my client or my client's client is at a certain I can make them predict what the logical next step is going to be.
	If I do something on accident that makes my client look like they're about to cross this stage in the story structure where they're about to go through this major conflict, a major battle in their life, the jury's going to say, oh, this is the time for the big battle, and this is the time when they need to learn the biggest lesson of all before they are rescued.
	That's not a good idea.
	That's a very bad idea.
	And you see that happen on accident a lot.
	And I think Jerry Spence, who, if you're not an attorney and you're watching this, he wrote some of the best books of all time on influence and persuasion.
	I think one of his best is How to Argue and Win Every Time.
	And Jerry Spence talks a lot about this process of understanding how the jury not only sees Your client as an attorney, but how is the jury perceiving their life and what is the jury predicting is next for that person?
	Yeah, there's several lines.
	His I want to steal in future cases.
	No, go ahead.
	Yeah, I was just saying there was a comment from Carla on the screen.
	I want Chase to analyze me so badly.
	I lost the comment, but it was Carla.
	Chase, I'm hoping you're analyzing me and that when we go offline.
	You'll tell me how normal I actually am.
	The moment we go offline, I promised my daughter I would jump on a fortnight with her before bedtime, or watch her do it, because I don't know how to do it.
	Speaking of which, how much, because I know in general, because of the dynamic of the interpersonal relationship, a lot of the skill set you're referencing isn't quite applicable to the parent-child dynamic, but it would seem like it would be at least tempting.
	I don't know.
	I mean, you see a lot of comedy scripts and whatever with the shrink.
	Parent is always, you know, diagnosing the child and that sort of thing.
	But, you know, it'd be tempting to hypnotize them now and then figure what they're really up to.
	But anything like that, is it really useful or applicable or not really in that context?
	Hypnosis or profiling?
	Well, actually, both.
	Now, I can definitely profile.
	Like, if your daughter came home, I assume with some boyfriend, you're going to be profiling the guy, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	No, you should see what I do to babysitters.
	That could be a whole other episode.
	Chase, you're mirrored, right?
	So I'm looking, if you raise your right hand now, which one's your right hand?
	Okay, when you just said what you just said, your right eyebrow lowered in it, it was almost a mischievous manner like, oh yes, I'm always profiling.
	I mean, I guess in a way, any parent always is.
	The only question is, are they any good at it?
	So how do you go about being a good profiler?
	Well, there's a ton, but I would start with the singular question that I asked my kids a hundred times, starting when they were like six years old.
	We'd pull up to a stoplight, and we'd have some Subaru in front of us covered in bumper stickers, like I did the marathon, I did this 2016 beach cleanup event, clean up the oceans, PETA, protect the animals, coexist, you know, all these bumper stickers on the back of this car.
	And I told my daughter, I said, what do you think, if the owner of that car gave all of those stickers a voice, what would those stickers all be shouting at us?
	My daughter, at the age of seven, would say things like, well, I participate in a lot of things.
	I'm very active.
	I'm probably an interesting person.
	I'm not going to be a threat to you.
	And I would also probably be a very good friend.
	And start asking questions like that to adults.
	Like, what does this person really want me to believe about them?
	What do they want me to believe?
	Because typically, that's how I'm going to treat them at the very beginning so that they feel comfortable and the walls come down.
	And as far as the hypnosis goes, I mean, my kids were between four and nine, maybe four and eight.
	I mean, I would read my daughter a book about...
	And I wouldn't even be reading from the book.
	I'd just pull out this big, important-looking book, and I would read about this sleepy princess who took this magic potion and started falling asleep.
	I would vividly describe the entire process.
	And boom!
	So that's kind of hypnosis.
	It's just the power of suggestion.
	Chase, I'm bringing up two comments.
	One is Tara Rayner.
	Chase, what's your impression of U.S. and Canadian leadership?
	I think North America has weakest leadership in history.
	One is bought by globalists, second is owned.
	And then this one is, the behavior panel needs to do an episode on public health officials, politicians who are behaving like psychopaths, destroying people's lives, etc.
	This is going to segue perfectly.
	First of all, both of you, thank you very much for the super chats.
	Let me swallow.
	This is...
	I just made a bad meme.
	I'm done.
	I'm done on the internet.
	This leads me into my question.
	I tweet out...
	That I believe certain politicians are lying psychopaths.
	I immediately regret the tweet, but I don't delete the tweet because there's no point deleting a mistake if you think you made one.
	But I don't think I've made one because I think they're lying psychopaths.
	I read an article in The Atlantic that calling, you know, politicians might happen to be psychopaths.
	In your assessment, we know you think it's 18 to, you know, one in five of the general population of psychopaths, sociopaths.
	Flip it around.
	What percentage of politicians, public servants, people aspiring for high political office do you think are psychopaths or sociopaths?
	I think it's about the same, but I think the percentage of narcissism is much higher.
	I think Trump, despite everything he did that was great, I think he was a malignant narcissist or just a narcissist.
	There's two types there.
	Sorry, what's the difference?
	Malignant narcissist versus narcissist?
	Are these DSM-5 type?
	Qualifications or informal?
	Yeah.
	They're DSM.
	So one of them specifically preys on other people to feel a certain way, and a narcissist has to get basically a reaction from other people.
	I was trying to figure out how to sum that up really quick.
	I have the DSM sitting here beside me, but that would be super boring.
	But I think there's a ton that are narcissists.
	Maybe 25% sociopath and maybe like an even smaller percent psychopath.
	But I think narcissism is the common thread through all of them.
	Left side of the aisle, right side of the aisle, it doesn't matter.
	They all lie.
	Most of them are full of crap.
	All of them, funny enough, will weaponize their followers to do their bidding against their enemies.
	Not your enemies, their enemies.
	They will weaponize your emotions against their enemies and then point you at the target.
	Now, out of curiosity, during your time in the military, did you see any change in the sense of people that I've known have had a recurrent refrain?
	You know, criticism of the military hierarchy, some of the officer corps, particularly some of the top political brass.
	But then also a good number of people said it's really got worse over the last decade or so.
	What was your take?
	What was your experience?
	I think that a lot of the senior leadership is probably getting fired if they're not towing the line politically.
	And I think that as an individual, this is my personal opinion, I don't want sensitive people in the military.
	I want killers.
	It's not a peacekeeping organization.
	It's a warfighting organization.
	I have so many jokes that I want to make right now, but in an era of humorlessness, jokes get you canceled.
	But yes, given what you see going on in the military, I presume this is not what you see going on right now.
	Yeah, I'm not checked in with the military right now.
	But this is what I hear from many of my friends, is that they're having to go through tons of hoops to make sure that they're embracing woke culture.
	And I've got dozens of friends who are on the left, dozens on the right, and all of them are kind of wary of this.
	And it seems almost like thought control and not...
	And I'm talking about the military specifically.
	They are telling me that it feels this way.
	And I'm sad to hear that.
	And I hope that something happens where we can go in another direction.
	Or maybe this is the best thing ever.
	And maybe all of this training is going to make our military a thousand times more lethal and deadly.
	But I doubt it.
	I would pull up comments, but I don't want the stream to get pulled down midstream.
	I don't think that it's going to make the military...
	For what the military needs to be stronger.
	And I do believe that I can hear China and Russia laughing from my basement.
	But that's my own personal sentiment.
	Well, that's called schizophrenia.
	You can hear that down there.
	But I know it's there.
	So it's schizophrenia with insight.
	So I know I'm hearing the laughter.
	That's a joke.
	I know a few things.
	Speaking of which now, the last book that I just stopped listening to or finished, it was...
	Oh, geez.
	With the Old Breed.
	And the one thing that I, with the Old Breed, about, you know, the Battle of Iwo Jima, Palulu, and it's an amazing book to listen to when you read, if people actually do that, to see what people did and what people actually went through compared to what we're going through now and the search for meaning and the search for purpose.
	Are we going through a collective mass hysteria?
	I don't want to say a mass psychosis or a mass delusion.
	I think mass delusion is Scott Adams' term or concept, but do you see the world now as going through a mass delusion or worse, in the COVID era?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I think what's really happening now is that if you look at Maslow's hierarchy...
	What is that?
	The Maslow hierarchy of needs where we have food, shelter, and safety.
	Then we have sex and love and belonging and self-actualization.
	We kind of have this little hierarchy.
	The moment someone can just grab onto that bottom of your pyramid and just kind of start jerking it out and just kind of let you know that I have the capacity to jerk this out.
	Or maybe it's not me.
	Maybe there's a potential for the bottom of your pyramid to be pulled out.
	You become 10,000 times more easy to manipulate.
	And then we have social media, which is directly showing you everything that only agrees with your opinions.
	You'll never see an opposing opinion on social media.
	So if I am far right-wing, that's all I'm going to see.
	I will never see anything, let's say, intelligent that the president says.
	I'll never see anything intelligent.
	And granted, as much as people don't like them, they say intelligent things.
	But we won't see any of that stuff.
	So my emotions are continuing to get weaponized.
	If I'm on the far left, I'm only going to see stupid things that the right is doing.
	And I'm going to be certain, I'm going to be fully convicted of all of my thoughts.
	So what it's going to do is ramping up emotional...
	Anxiety about everything.
	And then making you start connecting the dots.
	And here's just a basic example of how they do it.
	Let's say you're watching the news.
	And they say, man, or let's say a woman found dead in a ditch.
	Earlier, she was seen having an argument with her boyfriend.
	You just tied those two together.
	You just did it in your head, even though the argument was a year ago.
	And they didn't tell you how long ago the argument was, but we kind of want to feel smart.
	So we want to tie everything that's not touching, we want to tie those things together.
	It gives us a sense of accomplishment, it makes us feel smart, and it makes us feel like that pyramid is back under my control.
	I'm holding that pyramid again because I can figure things out.
	And that's how they do it.
	Don't connect dots, but they'll bring them close together so that you connect them on your own, and the dots are usually not factual or truthful.
	On that subject, just to give a shout-out to Justin Juvenal, who's a blue checkmark reporter, justice reporter, and speaking of exactly what you're saying, connecting two dots, reporting on the incident in Loudoun County, and I'm just reading the tweet, a teen testified she met a classmate for consensual intercourse in the girls' bathroom at Loudoun County High School before.
	But in May, the encounter was...
	But in May...
	But in a May encounter, she was assaulted.
	And it's an amazing thing.
	I mean, Twitter let him have it because he was associating two different things in order to create exactly what you were just talking about, which is the association between the two in order to explain the latter.
	I just wanted to get that out there because seeing people do that and when you're not conscious of it, you are...
	But when you are conscious of it, Chase, you're still being manipulated by it, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Sadly.
	And that's the thing.
	Anytime I can get your amygdala or your mammalian part of your brain.
	So if you're watching right now and you stick your fingers in your ears, that's the animal part of your brain.
	It makes 95% of your decisions.
	And the human part of your brain takes the credit.
	So even though we're making these...
	Wildly emotional decisions.
	The human brain is going to come up with all kinds of reasons that the decision was made that sounds logical and makes us feel good because going all the way back because of cognitive dissonance.
	Yeah, that was fascinating.
	I think it was the book Elephant and the Brain that went into sort of great description about that.
	The other thing that I remember reading David Mamet's book, Three Uses of the Knife, which I thought was fantastic.
	I call it the neurological need for narrative, but it was revolutionary in explaining things to me in terms of how I was articulating things and understood things.
	The way I tend to phrase it is that motivation is the master of reason.
	Reason is never the master of motivation.
	And if you want to improve your reasoning, just shift your motivation.
	Is that apt?
	Yeah, I think that's brilliantly said.
	I mean, there's so much...
	I'll steal that.
	I'll steal that.
	I'll put a quote, Chase Hughes, Barnes, that's what we said.
	I think, you know, when people hear a simple idea, like any idea that can fit on a Post-it note, it's probably not true.
	You know, it needs to be some long, complex, 3,000-page document, and then I might believe something.
	But an idea like, hey, social media is literally ruining your life.
	That fits on a post-it.
	It can't be true.
	Simple stuff like that.
	I need something more complex to be true for me.
	Chase, I don't want to keep you longer than you have to go because we started late.
	What are you doing these days?
	You've got the behavior panel.
	You know what?
	I'm going to stop right there.
	What was your most favorite analysis that you've done thus far with the behavior panel?
	Which one out there?
	If no one's ever seen one episode, which one do they absolutely have to watch?
	Definitely Prince Andrew.
	That was my most favorite.
	That was the best.
	The leg going up and down.
	Can you explain to people what the...
	It's the pulse count, right?
	There's something about the way his foot was moving.
	You could tell his heartbeat rate, right?
	Yeah.
	How is that?
	He had one leg crossed over a knee, which is kind of like a European leg cross, which puts the lower extremity of the femoral artery onto the knee.
	Amazing.
	So with every heartbeat, which is what we call like a systolic pressure, like when you get your blood pressure, the top number is your systolic when your heart is actually pumping.
	So with every little pump, you could see the end of his foot lifting.
	So we were able to get his pulse rate and watch how it changed throughout the interview.
	That's next level.
	But the wonderful thing is, look, to play the cynic.
	The wonderful thing is no one's going to ever be able to contradict that assessment because it's not information that anybody has.
	But that's a great insight.
	The other thing is that he just...
	I mean, look, the layperson looks at that and says, this guy's a total liar, but give me the labels to know what he's doing that makes him a liar.
	Yeah.
	What are the classics?
	If you slap labels on them so people can associate them or reflexively think of them, what are the biggest signs and what do they call them?
	Yeah, well, I think, I mean, you even created the elements of deception in the ellipsis book that you can add up.
	Could you describe some of that for folks?
	Yeah, so one of the most common ones would be a resume statement.
	So, like if Viva, I said, like, hey, we need to find out...
	I just wanted to ask you if you were the one that took the $10,000 out of the safe.
	And let's say, Bevo, your response is, I have been working here for 15 years.
	I've been staying late on the weekends.
	I got my master's degree in finance and accounting.
	I know what that would do to a company.
	And that didn't answer my question.
	You're not even talking about the money.
	So that's kind of giving a resume.
	You hear that from a lot of people.
	And I mean, you'll hear this in the corporate world in interrogations.
	You'll hear this when a woman is questioning her husband.
	And second, you'll see a lot of mini-confessions.
	And a mini-confession stems from our need to confess to something.
	And then we'll just confess to something smaller.
	So like in a police station, it might be...
	A guy being questioned about a murder.
	And he says, no, no, no.
	I didn't have anything to do with that.
	But you know what?
	I do want to be honest with you guys.
	I've got a gram of heroin in the ashtray of my car.
	It's down there in the parking lot.
	I wanted to tell somebody.
	And in a domestic relationship, let's say a husband gets off a business trip and his wife picks up the phone and notices that the passcode has changed.
	Because she's just trying to go in there to print off a...
	A receipt or something.
	And she's like, hey, oh, I just noticed you changed your password.
	And he goes, yeah, yeah.
	Also, I've been meaning to tell you, I downloaded this app called Tinder, but I thought it was a business networking app.
	You know, I just, I thought it was for business networking.
	And then I deleted it, but I just downloaded it while I was down in Miami or, you know, wherever.
	So we'll see.
	A mini-confession typically means that there's something else coming.
	So if you ever do hear a mini-confession, your number one priority should be to make no big deal out of it and just keep moving along as if it's not a big deal at all.
	What do you think about, I'm fond of talking about confession through projection or confession through accusation, that the telltale heart has this need to confess, but by doing it, by pointing the blame at someone else.
	Like, I had a recent situation where this person was calling out people and attacking me, and I told everybody, take down what he's saying, because he's going to be telling you who he is.
	He's going to be telling, whatever he says I am, he's saying who he is.
	Write it down, we'll have a nice little psychological roadmap of him.
	Turned out to be very true.
	But how predictive or accurate is that?
	You mean that we're projecting a lot of that stuff outward?
	Yeah, especially if somebody just comes up and starts accusing you of something weird and random that doesn't really fit you, that they're often confessing their own personal traits and just projecting it onto you or someone else.
	Like colluding with the foreign government?
	Or something like that?
	Yeah, exactly, exactly.
	Like I got a family with a history of corruption, with taking bribes, with issues of so on and so forth.
	But it's the other guy doing it.
	Yeah, hypothetically.
	So I think that's what we tend to do.
	Carl Jung wrote a lot about this, called it The Shadow.
	And in a famous experiment, a college professor hands out these, like, note cards to the students.
	Little blank note cards.
	And on each note card, you write down, you think of a person that you really don't like very much, and you write down five things that they do that pisses you off.
	And by the end of the class, he reveals that at least three of those things on that card are things you don't like about yourself.
	So we tend to do that a lot.
	So our judgment that we pass, the way someone spends money or the way someone does something, we tend to not like that trait or not like we...
	That we can't do what that person's doing in our own self.
	But yeah, I think that's super common.
	I'm going to bring up two chats.
	You hear a lot of resumes in congressional testimonies.
	In fact, that's practically all you hear.
	And that is, well, in my limited experience as a Canadian watching congressional hearings with attention is true.
	Chase, are you able to fill us in your most interesting interrogation while in the military?
	I've never been an interrogator in the military.
	Is that the deceitful way of getting out of answering it, or is that actually true by semantics?
	That's 100% truthful.
	Let me just take one word out of her question and then re-ask it.
	Are you able to fill us in on your most interesting thing while in the military?
	What can you tell us of your most interesting military experience that you can actually share without being locked up in the brig?
	I don't know that I have that many interesting stories.
	But I will say, I'm going to twist this around, but I hope you'll forgive me.
	Please.
	I had a total a-hole that I worked with.
	His name was Eric with a K. He tried really hard all the time to act super tough and cool.
	He was so concerned with looking tough and cool.
	Even if you asked him about something, he would be pissed off.
	And he would default to anger and make sure that you knew that he was this big, powerful animal.
	And in the end, I got really pissed off at him one time.
	And a week before this, I was bitten by an eel.
	No joke.
	I'm spearfishing in Hawaii.
	The biggest secret I ever learned in the military.
	I'm about to spill it right now.
	If you ever go spearfishing, Take down a can of Cheez Whiz.
	It is the most unbelievable fish attractor I've ever seen in my life.
	But don't tell anybody.
	I get bit by a freaking eel.
	It's a moray eel that can grow up to 13 feet long.
	Not very sure how long he was.
	Ripped my arm open.
	They thought it was a shark attack.
	There was so much blood.
	It was nasty.
	But then a week later, I'm bitching to my mentors, a 74-year-old retired military intelligence guy.
	And I'm bitching about this guy that I work with, the name Eric with a K. And he said, well, did Eric rip your arm in half?
	And I said, no, it's ridiculous.
	He's like, well, would you consider yourself a trained killer?
	And I said, yeah, absolutely.
	He says, well, why don't you go down there and kill that eel?
	And I said, why would I want to kill the eel?
	It's just a creature reacting off of how it grew up and reacting off of its environment and how it grew up as a species.
	And then it took me a while to get it, but I leaned back and realized that I was describing Eric and the eel together.
	And I think that that was the most profound turning point in my lifetime.
	I think everything in my life changed when I started seeing people with no judgment as just a product of how they grew up.
	I see somebody that's spiky.
	I see a porcupine trying to protect a soft inside.
	I see someone hiding every time they're in a big situation.
	I'm seeing a turtle that's retreating into its shell.
	And seeing humans that way without judgment is, I think, The most life-changing thing you can do.
	It's almost like instant zen.
	Even if some dude cuts you off on the freeway, you're like, oh, it's a porcupine.
	That's my answer.
	I thought you were going to say that you started to see people as eels and that your favorite show was Dexter.
	When you mentioned that story, Chase, the one thing I thought of was anyone who's been on the internet long enough knows you go down with Cheez Whiz, but don't go down with hot dogs because the video I saw was a guy feeding a moray eel with a hot dog and then the moray eel mistook his thumb for the hot dog and bit his thumb off under the water.
	It's a great video because you can actually hear the bones snapping off under the water.
	I don't know if anybody in the chat has ever seen that video.
	It's an old one.
	I don't want to keep you longer than you have.
	Where do people find you?
	What's next on the horizon?
	I don't know, man.
	I don't think it can get more insightful than that last anecdote because I'm going to be thinking about that for a while, but where can people find you?
	ChaseUse.com or just type ChaseUse into Google.
	My next big thing is I started writing fiction on a whim.
	About a year and a half ago.
	And somehow it's going to be a television series pretty soon.
	Fictional TV series.
	So that's pretty fun.
	We're just wrapping up casting for the show now.
	I'm pretty excited about it.
	That's awesome.
	Everyone in the chat.
	Now I'm thinking of Eric the Eel.
	Chase, thank you very much.
	We might try to do this again.
	Is there anything else?
	Currently going on...
	Well, I won't say that.
	Yeah, never mind that part.
	No, no.
	So, what else?
	So, we're going to do that.
	What's your book?
	I'm sorry.
	That's what I was looking for.
	What's your book?
	It's called...
	The one I would recommend most is called Six Minute X-Ray.
	And...
	If you just look that up, it shows people how to profile someone all the way down to their fears and insecurities in less than six minutes in a very normal conversation that sounds boring or totally regular.
	Or a job interview.
	I love it.
	I love the idea of viewing everyone like animals, well not like animals, but as rather reacting to their environment.
	It's nice.
	It's non-judgmental and your reaction is going to be the exact same thing.
	Demonize them or not, you're still going to seek to understand and protect yourself, and that's ultimately the moral of the story, I guess.
	Alright, everyone in the chat, thank you very much.
	Go for it, Robert.
	I'll be over in a little bit with Eric Hundley and Mark Robert discussing some interesting news on Alec Baldwin, who might have used some training from Chase before he went out that day.
	The news coming out of that story is just getting worse and worse for everyone involved.
	It's terrible.
	Talk about empathy.
	I feel bad for everyone involved, even if they don't necessarily deserve the empathy, but I just feel bad for everyone involved, even the toxic Alec Baldwin, but especially.
	Even your enemies go through this.
	Yeah, it's going to be interesting, interesting news that Eric Hundley and Mark Robert have found out.
	Genuinely legit first-time stuff.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	So, Robert, when is that?
	What time is it now?
	In a few minutes.
	Oh, geez.
	Okay.
	So, everyone in the chat, head over.
	It's on Eric Hundley's main channel, correct?
	It's either that one or the new channel he set up.
	I just got the link, so I'm not sure which.
	I'll tweet it out.
	Chase Hughes, Behavior Panel, chasehughes.com, the book.
	That's going to be my next Audible download if it's on Audible.
	I hope it is.
	It is.
	Okay, awesome.
	That's my next one.
	Everyone in the chat, thank you all for the comments.
	I'm sorry I didn't get to all your chats, but thank you for being there.
	Enjoy the rest of the week's Sunday livestream.
	Chase, Robert, stick around.
	We'll say our proper goodbyes.
	And everyone else, peace out.

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