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Dec. 5, 2022 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:06:21
Edition 684 - Dr Simeon Hein
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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Hoping that everything is going well with you.
It's now, I'm recording this at about, well, 25 past four in the afternoon, and it is November, the very back end of it.
And here in the northern hemisphere, this particular part of it, it is dark.
It's a time of year that I don't particularly like.
You know, when you get to dusk at half past three in the afternoon, look, I know that there are people listening to this in Scandinavia.
And there, of course, I think you get, I seem to remember from a radio show that I did there a lot of years ago from Lapland.
I think in the wintertime, it goes dark there at about two o'clock in the afternoon, and you don't get daylight until about nine or 10 a.m.
So I can't really complain, but this is a part of the year about which you know my views.
Hope, having said that, that everything is good with you.
If you're listening in the southern hemisphere, of course, everything is hunky-dory, isn't it?
Because you're just getting into springtime and summertime.
All right, enough weather talk.
Thank you for all of your emails.
New listeners, I've had emails from recently.
That's nice to know.
When you get in touch with me by going to the website, theunexplained.tv, designed and created by Adam, please follow the link and you can always send me an email from there.
But nice to hear from new listeners.
Don't forget to always tell me who you are, whereabouts in the world you are, and how you use this show.
It's always nice to know all of those things.
And I promise that I'm not keeping a data bank on you.
I'd just like to know, really.
I'm just curious.
That's what I am.
Okay, the guest on this edition of The Unexplained is a man called Dr. Simeon Hine.
Let me tell you about him.
He's a former university professor in statistics and research methods.
He came across the idea of remote viewing around about 1996, trained in it, and now effectively trains in it himself.
The results of the training were surprisingly positive, his biography says, and convinced Dr. Hine that there's a large area of scientific knowledge that is being effectively withheld from public discussion.
Subsequently, he established the non-profit Institute for Resonance and began teaching remote viewing classes in Boulder, Colorado, and continues to do that.
He also became interested in the topics of crop circles, unexplained aerial phenomena, and extraterrestrials, also Bigfoot.
And the idea that we've heard expressed an awful lot, especially over the last few years on this show, that various fields and gradations of paranormality may in some way be linked.
I find that a truly fascinating and tantalizing prospect.
And I'm kind of hoping that you do too.
So a new guest to the unexplained, Dr. Simeon Hine in the US, is going to be the guest on this edition of the show.
Thank you very much for keeping in touch with me as we come to the end of this year.
I'm planning to take a fresh look at all of it as we cross into 2023, just to see what things can be improved and what things we can do differently.
And I'm also going to try and get a handle on the guest booking procedure.
I know that there are some guests that you would really like to hear on here or have reappear on here.
And I'm going to try and make sure that those things happen, as they say, what do they say, in a timely fashion during 2023.
So I want to get a grip of it all.
You can't stand still.
I think that's been proved in so many areas of life.
But the one thing that I think has worked about this is that we've continued to be an audio podcast.
You know, I now, of course, have been doing a TV show for six months.
I never thought that I would adjust to that, but it seems that I have, and that's great.
And I enjoy learning about that medium as best I can at this stage of my life.
But I always think that the podcast is better as sound.
I think in many ways, and there might be those who disagree with me, sound is more evocative.
If you listen to a play on the radio, if it's well mixed and put together, and if the dialogue is good, then it can often transcend anything that you would see on TV.
So, you know, my inclination is to keep this going as sound.
But like I say, I'm going to look at everything come the new year and see what needs to be done differently.
All right, let's get to the United States now.
The guest on this edition of The Unexplained, we have a lot of territory to cover and not nearly enough time to do it.
Dr. Simeon Hine is here.
Simeon, thank you very much for coming on.
Yeah, thanks a lot, Howard.
Thanks for having me here today.
Okay, now listen, I have a feeling, having just read for my listener your biography, we are going to go down an awful lot of paths here because it seems to me that you've been involved in a lot of things.
First question would be, your background is, you have a PhD, your background is statistics, and that is something that is solid, provable, never changes.
How does a man, and just as a ballpark answer would be fine just to start us off really, but how does a man who's into statistics, and that's his work, get involved in all of this stuff that some people see as being nebulous?
A very good question, Howard.
And again, thanks for having me here today.
Right.
So statistics is based on, you know, getting ideas of how reality works from smaller samples.
And we take these smaller samples.
We all take them surveys nowadays.
Almost everything you do, there's a survey afterwards, right?
And they want to extrapolate from that small sample of data to get a sense of what the general population of their customers or participants may feel like, right?
That's based on linear approximations, very even, regular, predictable sorts of mathematical relationships.
When I was studying statistics back during the time I was getting my PhD, I discovered non-linear mathematics and fractal geometry.
And if you know anything about what fractal geometry is, it describes non-regular shapes, things that look more like what we see in reality.
Clouds and mountain ranges and the way rivers turn and break into smaller streams.
Any object that looks more similar the closer you look at it, including how our bodies work, the way our bronchial structure looks, our veins and arteries.
You kind of imagine these branching structures, Howard.
And that showed me that there was another alternative mathematical description of reality that statistics wasn't capturing.
And did that show you that the path of study that you were on perhaps was not enough for you?
Right.
It showed me that there were probably phenomena that were real that science, social science, as I was a part of, had not captured yet.
It really suggested there were real processes and living things and aspects of reality that we were not capturing with statistics because in the training I had, we were always taught to throw out outliers, pieces of data that did not fit on your linear statistical regression line.
And I was even before I was familiar with these topics, I was suspicious of this idea of throwing out outliers, events that didn't fit what you would expect.
Right.
So I would assume then that you're going to love our current algorithmically driven society then.
Right.
Because this is what my dissertation was about is that's where it ended up leading is were we creating chaos by forcing everything to fit within a linear framework?
I think that is a great and a core and key question.
And I know it's been a big thing with you.
Now, look, your mind was more open than maybe the average person's mind because I understand that when you were a kid, you were with your mom.
You're in Boulder, Colorado now, but you were with your mom, I think, holidaying in the Everglades, Florida, and you saw a UFO.
That's exactly right.
This really opened my mind at the age of 11 or 12.
I still talk about this with my mom.
She was a birdwatcher.
She took us down to the Everglades, just me and her, not the rest of the family.
We had binoculars.
We're in the Everglades National Park, and some huge, I will call it an object or thing, was right over us.
And I looked up and I thought it was the moon.
It was that big, the full moon.
And I couldn't understand how the moon could be right overhead, glowing in a kind of a greenish glow.
It was somewhere between a cloud and an object, but it had, when we looked at it with our binoculars, it had a solid structure of dots within it that looked linear.
And I couldn't figure out what this is.
And my mom said, that's not the moon.
As soon as we started looking at it, it moved into a cloud.
Did you think that it was aware of you?
Or did you not think it that far?
Did you think that it was aware of you watching it?
That is what my mom thought had happened because as soon as we put our very strong bird-watching caliber binoculars on it that were really quite good for the time, it started to move.
And I'm thinking, did it see us looking at it?
It had that feeling.
And even I can still remember to this day, Howard, it felt really strange being underneath this object that neither of us could identify.
It just had a weird vibe.
And to my young teenage mind, it felt like it didn't belong there.
So that experience was a kind of, for one so young, and I've spoken with many people in many disparate and different fields.
A lot of them start very, very young when phenomena come to them or somehow they come to phenomena.
So that kind of meant that your mind was a little more open than your average Joe.
No, I would say so.
And mom, Jane, always said, I think they zapped you, Simeon.
That's what got you interested in these topics.
They zapped you.
But I got to tell you one more thing that happened.
We went to one of these ranger talks that they give at national parks, if you've ever been here in the U.S. Every night there are these ranger talks at these amphitheaters in many national parks, probably if not all of them.
And we told the ranger, because she asked us, did anybody see anything interesting today?
My mom raises her hand, said, we saw a UFO.
And the ranger said, that's interesting.
Did anybody else see anything today they want to talk about?
She totally dodged the question.
And the people sitting next to us on the amphitheater bench had seen the object too.
I was talking to them.
So even at that young age, I was a little curious.
Why didn't you want to talk about this, right?
So that's very much a cathartic experience in the truest sense of the word, I suspect.
So fast forward, I think, to the 1990s, and you decide to train in remote viewing.
Now, I'm not entirely sure how that connection was made, and I know that you'll be able to tell me, but, you know, remote viewing is a controversial art or science.
I think it's probably more art than science, but you'll tell me.
You know, I'm just kind of intrigued by that.
Right, I agree.
It's part art and it's part science.
It's a blend.
You know, it's a really interesting blend.
And when I heard about it in 1996, there was a fellow talking on my local radio station.
He just wasn't just, wasn't anybody.
He had a PhD in political science and taught at Emory University, Dr. Courtney Brown.
Yes, I know.
And he, yeah, you might have heard of him.
And he ran a place that he had just started called the Farsight Institute.
He had learned remote viewing from someone who had been in the classified U.S. government program that started in the 1970s, someone by the name of Ed Dames.
Courtney had learned this technique, and he was on my local radio station in Boulder, Colorado, and he was saying that everybody had some psychic ability, for lack of a better word.
Anybody could describe objects, people, places at a distance without using their physical senses.
And I was a bit incredulous.
I really wasn't really sure if this was true or not.
But here's one thing that gave him some legitimacy for me.
He was also familiar with fractals, geometry, and chaos theory, which is something that I had studied in my dissertation.
So I felt a kind of an immediate connection to him, apart from the RV.
And he had written a book.
I went to get it in the local bookstore.
It was called Cosmic Voyage.
There was a number in the back of the book.
I read through it.
I said, is this true or not?
I thought the only way to really know, it's either one of the biggest discoveries in human history or it's a hoax.
But the only way to find out is to go there and take his class.
There was a number at the back of the book, and you could call it.
And he called back in a couple hours and said, We have a class coming up.
We've got one more spot.
So it seemed meant to happen.
Right.
And you turned out to be good at it?
Right.
I was good enough at it that he wanted me to come back and be a teacher there in that year that I was there.
Partly also because I had some academic credentials.
But it was something that seemed, it was surprising that it worked better than I thought it would.
I was very surprised that I would get results within a few days of training and everyone else in the class pretty much that really defied what you would expect from some sort of random process.
I mean, the statistical part of me looked at it and said, these are real results.
These are not random, noisy results that you would just get from haphazard guessing.
The target is put in the folder.
You don't see it until you're all done.
And yet, even in one of these sessions I did, I think it was of Cancun, Mexico, the beach there, it was way too accurate for it to be something that there wasn't some real signal going on.
However, it got to my mind from that folder, there was something really going on.
All right.
Now, whenever I talk about remote viewing, people take sides.
Some people say it's all nonsense, and some people say, I don't think so.
I swear by that.
And I'm sure that they've been doing it in government, and I'm sure that the Americans didn't discontinue the remote viewing program like they said they did, I think, in the 1990s.
But the crux of it always comes down to, okay, if this person can do remote viewing, get them to tell you something useful that they achieved with their remote viewing.
What did you achieve?
What did you get?
What are you proudest of?
Well, that's a very good question.
I think if you look at it just mathematically, you can see, and I think people that have looked at it like Jessica Utz, who was a former head of the American Statistical Association, she looked at it for the U.S. government in 1995 as an outsider and concluded there were real results there that showed some real process was going on.
It's not like a magic trick, Howard, where you just look into the future and you get it 100%.
But it has, you know, it's something that shows you more information than you would expect to get if you were just closing your eyes and writing down what came to your mind.
You're getting more signal there than noise.
And people who've done this who want to show that it works have done it predicting stock market futures, commodities, and so forth.
And we did experiments like this at our Mount Baldy Institute in Boulder.
And when we did this just for fun, to see if we could reproduce the results of other people that had done this, like Russell Targ and Hal Putoff, when they were doing their experiments at SRI, we were able to predict the S ⁇ P 500 10 out of 10 times over 10 weeks, what it would do the Friday based on a prediction the previous Monday.
Now, this takes a lot of time and effort to coordinate a group to do this, but that's sort of one application that just shows you that there really is something going on.
And someone who did this very successfully over about 13 years and documented every single session over 5,000 applications of this was able to get a hit rate of about 65 to 70 percent.
Greg Kalodesic, an endurance athlete and runner from Canada.
And so he just did it on his own and came to the same conclusion.
You can really use this for short-term predictions.
And he was able to make, you know, somewhere north of $100,000, $150,000 over 13 years, which he didn't think was a lot of money for the effort that he put into it.
I mean, I have heard people say that the very best remote viewers, you won't hear from them because they're all retired, having made millions.
Some of them did make a lot of money.
I remember Bevy Yeagers, a psychic who trained using her own sort of methods, who was a friend of Ingo Swan, who was at some of these remote viewing conferences before she passed on.
And I was fortunate to meet with her and take some of her classes at these conferences, the Irva conferences.
She told us that she had done this for an investor, and she would just use this technique.
Does the investment feel hot or cold?
And she told us that she was so successful over a period of months that he bought her a house in St. Louis.
Wow.
So you don't hear about this.
They won't talk about it.
You don't hear it.
I mean, look, I love the whole topic of remote viewing.
And, you know, one of my perennial long-term guests is Major Ed Dames, along with Courtney Brown, I have to say.
But Ed Dames, I first heard on the old Art Bell shows.
And I thought, I've got to get him on the radio in the UK.
And I did.
And I got to know Ed pretty well.
And I think, and, you know, I've become a bit of an Ed Dames completist.
I know that he was in that fabulous movie, Suspect Zero.
He had a cameo role in that.
You may have seen that movie.
You want to know, I mean, that movie wasn't a massive success here in the UK.
But I've got to say, if you want to know Ben Kingsley's the key character about remote viewing, I'm talking to my listener here, but if you want to know about remote viewing, that's a pretty good primer for all of that.
So look, I'm fascinated by remote viewing, and I'm fascinated by the idea that some people are making active use of this.
It clearly had a deep and meaningful impact on your life.
What did you do with it from then?
Well, it's very interesting, Howard.
What RV does for people is it shows them they have abilities they didn't know they had.
And it shows them that things are real that we might not have been told about by our teachers, by government, by society.
Because you can remote view things that you can't get information about any other way.
And later on, you might find out that your session was accurate.
One of the early sessions we did when I was at Farsight Institute was this so-called Unibomber case in the U.S. of an individual that was sending mailbombs to people.
And I later met some of the people that had been victims of his attack.
I was very surprised when he was finally arrested in Montana to find out that my session turned out to be accurate.
I did get someone out west in a cabin in a very isolated area, and that's where he turned out to be.
So that sort of confirmation shows you there's something real going on.
It's very accurate.
But for me, it led me to look into some other topics, including crop circles.
We did a crop circle type target in 1996.
And at the time, you know, kind of fresh out of graduate school just a few years before, I had never heard of a crop circle.
I had no idea what these were.
I wasn't part of that community.
But the information I got in the session made me so curious that in 1997, I came over to your country, to Wiltshire, and went on a crop circle tour so I could see these for myself just to see if my session had been accurate or not.
And that's when I saw there were a lot of strange phenomena going on around crop circles, including lots of camera battery failure, sort of strange events, space-time slips that I could see repeatedly, you know, going back over several years.
And I've been there many times since then, that there was something very strange going around crop circles that indicated some sort of energetic scientific process that we really didn't know very much about.
There are those who say that crop circles, certainly here in the UK, they are created by some kind, like you say, some kind of energy.
That energy may be already there within the ground.
It may be part of force fields within the earth itself, which is fascinating, even if it is that.
There are people who say that balls of light appear and they weave these wonderful, intricate patterns.
And of course, you do know that there are also people, and every time I talk about crop circles on the radio or the TV, I'll get people who say, are you talking about crop circles?
Everybody knows that they're all hoaxes and fakers who make these things.
I personally believe that there's an awful lot more to them.
And although some may be faked, I don't think they can all be faked.
But, you know, that's just my view.
So there you are investigating crop circles.
Right.
And you came to, presumably you came to crop circle ground zero in the UK, which is Wiltshire, which is about 100 miles from where I'm sitting right now.
So what did you come away with?
What did you find?
First of all, the first one I ever went in was by Silbury Hill in 1997 called the Koch Snowflake, the six-sided fractal snowflake.
This was actually the very pattern that I studied for my PhD dissertation.
An object that as you keep looking at the edges, you see more triangles at the edge or part triangles, right?
It keeps breaking down and you see more, you know, it looks larger the closer you look.
This image had been made in the wheat field just by Silbury Hill, the largest and oldest earth mound in Europe.
And one of the first things that I saw were people's cameras and batteries failing as soon as they were near or in a crop circle.
Even the person who was leading our tour, Ron Russell from the Denver area, I saw him put his camcorder down in a crop circle, the Daneberry Triad near Andover, and it never worked again.
It heated up and never worked again that summer.
When he sent it back to Sony, they said the inside, the solder joints had been melted by the power supply.
And that showed me that there was some active energy going in and around these circles.
Now, yes, they are made by people because I got to know these people who made them later on.
And I wrote a book about it called Opening Minds about meeting the circle makers because they had seen myself and Ron at these conferences and they had seen me get up there and say what many people used to say, which I believed, which is no human can make something this big and this accurate in the dark.
And so they took me out at night and I got to know these different groups and I found they actually were making these circles and even their circles were affected our cameras and batteries and so forth.
In other words, it was the shape itself that was creating an energy pattern that was doing something that we didn't understand very well at the time.
Now, isn't that interesting?
I've never heard anybody say that on this show before.
So thank you for that.
So do you believe that they're mostly human created or do you think that there's something else at work?
Right.
Well, the ones that I saw, and I only got involved in this later in the game, as I said in 1997, those had to be at least 90, 95% man-made in the Wiltshire area, as I came to learn.
I did not believe that at first because, again, you've seen them.
The listeners have seen them.
They're huge.
They're precise.
How do you do that in the dark?
The circle-making groups that I got to know showed me how they did this in the dark with walkie-talkies and lasers and very good coordination.
They even had a language of communicating through ropes, rope tugs, and rope signaling language.
Yes.
So they were very good, but even they were amazed that really strange things would happen while they were out there, including seeing small UFOs and objects and balls of light around the circles as they were making them.
There was one group that told me, and I wrote about this in opening ones, that they were chased out of a circle near Alton Barnes, the Tosmead Cops area.
They were chased out in the middle of making one by three balls of light.
And these are big 20-year-old guys with boards.
So it showed me immediately there was something really going on that was interesting, regardless of whether it was made by UFOs or people.
Now, I have talked to people, Howard, who have seen flying discs and UFOs flatten meadows and flowers and things like this.
And there are witnesses to seeing them being flattened around UFOs, even the tully saucer nests from Australia.
There were witnesses to these reeds being flattened by discs.
So there is a history of UFOs, now called the UAP, actually showing interest in crops, fields, meadows.
And when they get close to the area, the propulsion system, whatever it is, the technology on their craft does seem to flatten plants.
So it seems that UFOs are connected to crop circles in addition to ball lightning, plasmas, and so forth, weather-related phenomena.
We can get into ball lightning a bit later.
That does also seem to be related to crop circles.
So it's a more complex topic than I thought, than most people thought.
And I think for a lot of people, Howard, it's very challenging to wrap your mind around the idea that crop circles could have multiple causes, but They do.
So we're suggesting that the power within crop circles may be to do with the actual shapes themselves, however they're created.
Which makes me wonder, and just before we move on to talk about other things, including Bigfoot, those people who were creating these things and using very complex techniques to do it, how did they know where to go, you know, where the energy is?
And also, how did they know which shapes to create that would push the right cosmic buttons?
Yeah, great questions.
They were like us.
They were very curious in the phenomena when they first started seeing these patterns probably in the late 80s.
And some of those were made by the folks we know as Doug and Dave, who actually did make, in my view, a whole bunch of formations, crop formations and crop circles in the Wiltshire area.
They saw these, and they might have seen some of the ones that were naturally created or even related to UFOs.
And they said, well, because this is what they told me.
Can we do this?
Can we make something that looks like this?
I believe it was Matt Williams who told me the first time they ever went out and make one.
This is someone that is a former circle maker, and I mentioned him in my book.
He said they went out and they just sort of rolled around to see if they could even do anything that even looked remotely like what they had seen.
So it was just sort of experimentation, trial and error.
And they realized, wow, this doesn't look half bad.
The media would show up.
Helicopters would appear from your local news stations.
And artists like attention.
They enjoy having people look at their artwork as the way many of them, these are many of these people are graphics artists and computer programmers and so forth, people that like math and equations and all that geometry.
And the more attention they got to their formations, the more they made them.
And they started to get bigger and bigger until you had a group like so-called Team Satan, as they called themselves, from London go out and make them, which were some of the largest ones we ever saw out there.
Well, how fascinating.
So there is a lot more research to be done about crop circles and precisely what they mean and whether they might open up some kind of portal to something, something else, maybe a dimension of existence, a parallel existence that we're not totally aware of.
But I think, and that's something that you're very much into, I know, a lot of people I'm speaking with on this show now are coming to the idea that all paranormality may be linked.
There may be a unified theory of all paranormality, that one thing leads to another, whether you're making a crop circle, you're tapping into something that is unseen, but nevertheless there.
If you're observing Sasquatch, Bigfoot, Yeti, Yaoi, whatever it might be, that exists in that same realm.
Ghosts may well also be a manifestation of that same realm, and UFOs and on we go.
It's a fascinating field of research, but how on earth do we mere mortals, and you're more qualified in all of this than I am, how do we get our heads and hands around that idea?
That's right.
These phenomena are all linked because we live in a reality that is a unified reality.
There is a unified quantum field.
There is a quantum vacuum field behind the matter that we see, behind what looks like material structure.
There's quantum wave functions that describe it.
And the way we wrap our head around it is to start with subjects that we know about, subjects that have history behind them that people were initially skeptical of.
And we look at how that over history progressed into ideas that we understand today, like electricity and magnetism and physical vacuums inside glass bottles and so forth, all of which were considered to be supernatural at one time.
So the way I approach it is to look at the history of science.
And when you look at the history of science, you'll see there always were competing ideas, and I'm saying this as a sociologist, competing ideas that may not have been popular at the time, such as the heliocentric theory of Copernicus and Galileo, that were considered heretical and impossible and wrong that turned out to be correct.
And if you have enough evidence and the evidence keeps repeating itself, it's your obligation to follow the evidence and not throughout the outliers.
So not throughout the outliers.
And this is how you follow these topics until you see that amongst all these paranormal phenomena, there's a lot of common experiences that show us that they're linked together.
Sorry, I jumped in there.
I mean, fascinating analysis, I think.
And science and scientists down the decades, down the centuries, have often poo-pooed a lot of this stuff and said, come on, it's all garbage.
And unless you can prove it repeatedly, I know people like this.
Unless you can prove it repeatedly, then don't come anywhere near me.
Unless you can do it repeatedly right in front of me, forget it, my friend.
However, the idea that this stuff may exist and may be part of science, we just don't fully understand it yet, I think is a wonderful idea.
And in my heart, I think, well, and what do I know?
But, you know, this may be putting us on the right direction of travel for investigation of these things.
No, that's right.
And if we look even in our own recent history, we had individuals like Nikola Tesla, who invented the AC electrical system as we know it, right?
Even though it was bought later by Westinghouse.
But he also had a lot of other ideas about how we could have communication, radio, something that you're familiar with.
I experimented with, I used to use shortwave radios as a kid too.
And so we know there have been individuals and ideas that have always been present.
Howard, it's not just a question of the evidence, like your skeptical friends would correctly say, show it to me, right?
Show it to me repeatedly.
It's not just the evidence.
It's a willingness to look at the evidence and a willingness to look at the evidence without fear of repercussion.
And we're having our own social dynamics around that right now and political activity around the UFO-UAP phenomena where Congress has said to the Pentagon, right, as you're aware, we want a yearly report about what you know about this phenomenon because we think it has national security implications that you're not telling us about.
And so one of the major hurdles to learning more about UFOs and UAP in our country right now is getting witnesses to come forward from the Navy and the Air Force over here.
And I'm sure in your country too, because people have been penalized and ostracized and ridiculed for years and decades and centuries for having alternative ideas.
And I've spoken to many pilots.
I'm just using this as an example to illustrate your question a little better.
Are you going to have pilots come forward, civilian or military pilots, if it's going to affect their career, which they put so much effort and energy into over many, many years?
And pilots that I know that have worked for United, for example, or other airlines have told me, even though they have seen UFOs and they radioed other pilots in the sky at the time saying, hey, do you see what I'm seeing?
And the other pilot said, yes, they didn't report it when they landed.
So I would take the other point of view from your skeptical friends and say, it's not just repeatable evidence.
Do we have a climate that allows people to come forward with evidence without fear of penalty to their reputation or career?
The United States seems to be coming up with some groundwork for that, seems to be changing the climate altogether for whistleblowers and people who've experienced things but heretofore have not talked about them.
The new defense procurement legislation isn't it has a part in it that effectively allows for people to come forward and if they know something, say it.
I mean, that's important.
That's significant.
And it plays into everything you've just said.
It does, Howard.
You could have as much evidence as you want for any topic, but if you have too much of a feeling on the part of the witnesses or the scientists that if they share this information, they're going to receive a lot of hostility.
How likely do you think they are to come forward with their evidence?
So again, as a sociologist, I'm going to argue that it's the political and social climate that is equally important, not just the scientific evidence, because the evidence might be there, but we might not be looking at it for a variety of reasons, just like you're saying.
And so, yeah, the Navy has come forward recently and said we won't penalize any pilots for coming forward with their UFO stories.
But we know this topic, this subject has been around at least in this country for 70 years or longer, right?
So that means there's decades of witnesses that we never heard from, not just the ones in the past couple of years.
So what does that do to our sense of the idea that science has an accurate view of reality right now?
Or are we missing a lot of phenomena that have been real the whole time, but we haven't been willing to look at?
And again, this plays into the idea that there are echelons within the establishment, not just in your country, but the establishments around the world, including my country, my place of abode, who might understand all of this stuff.
And perhaps might have known it for years, wherever they got it from, but are only now coming around to the idea that we might need to start informing the people about it.
In other words, what you're talking about, there being a unified theory of all of these things, and perhaps the Tic-Tac UFOs were a manifestation of this, they came from another dimension, and the Bigfoot that we'll get into talking about in a moment.
Maybe somebody knows about this stuff.
And maybe it's been decided somewhere that now is the time to start releasing the veil.
Right, that's correct.
Since World War II, there's been a high level of classification around any sort of science that had potential military intelligence implications in your country and mine.
And as a result, more and more of this type of discussion that we're having right now was classified.
The people that were involved in it were part of what we call black budget programs throughout the West.
And so what it led to was a situation where the evidence and the data were accumulating, but it wasn't shared with the public.
And if the public can't have access to information, you don't have an intelligent debate or discussion about the topic.
And that has its own national security risks.
In other words, if your population keeps getting dumbed down, I would see that as also a national security threat, not just your ability to defend your borders.
You have to have people that are capable and competent to confront and look at the phenomena that we're talking about, which are very challenging to understand.
It took me years of going back to Wiltshire to gather more data to start to make sense of what was going on with these crop circles, for example.
Why a shape in an inert material, inert like wheat?
You wouldn't expect it to be much of a conductor, would you?
How could that be electrically active?
It took decades for me to wrap my head around.
But it's the same with all these phenomena.
They're very challenging.
They challenge what we were taught in school.
But the first place to start is with an open public national discussion, whether it's UFOs or Kryptons or remote viewing.
Just let's take remote viewing as one quick example.
It was a classified program.
You've spoken to some of the people that were in that program, Howard.
It was classified until 1995, and yet it started in the early 70s, if not before, right?
And there's no discussion about it.
There weren't even, you know, I wrote the forward for Jim Marr's book called Sci Spies.
He's no longer, he passed on.
He was the author from Texas Journalist.
And he told me that when he first wanted to publish his book, Sci Spies, in 1995, he was one of the first to come out of the gates with a book about the government remote viewing program.
His publisher was afraid of the consequences and wouldn't publish it for a year or two later.
So that means books are not being published about any of these topics for fear of repercussions.
And it's almost like everyone is under some sort of Threat of blackmail.
And I think we realized it's gone too far in that direction.
We wouldn't be having these congressional hearings if we didn't think it had gone too far.
And we need to know, well, what's up there in our skies?
Just for, you know, who's up there?
And do these Navy and Air Force pilots really feel that it's dangerous to go into their practice areas because these little objects and cubes and tic-tacs are up there?
I mean, it matters.
Well, it does.
And we need people.
And I hope we still have them because we're losing a lot of them like Jim Mars who are willing to, whether they're right or wrong, stand up and say things.
I remember Jim Mars during a conversation I had in the days when we used to do these things by phone.
We did everything by, I think a lot of American radio still uses phone for most things.
But Jim Mars was there and he demonstrated to me in audio, in sound, how Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't have got off that many shots in that amount of time in D Dee Plaza in 1963.
So Jim Mars was not afraid to do those things.
And we need some fearlessness and we need people, like it seems to me that you're doing, who think out of the box and are beginning to suggest that maybe, for example, aliens may not, we're looking constantly in the skies.
We're, you know, the James Webb telescope and we've got SETI and all of those things that are all doing great work.
But maybe some of the stuff that we identify as being UFOs or aliens or stuff might actually emanate from here, might be here already, might be here right now.
We just simply cannot, with the eyes in our head, see them.
Yeah, I agree with that, Howard.
And I would imagine that our sense of reality is way off from what's really going on.
That's the only conclusion I can come to looking at all these topics.
It's far vaster than we imagine.
And it's not like people haven't suggested this since Giordano Bruno hundreds of years ago, people that were burned to the stake for suggesting these ideas.
Bruno suggested the universe was infinite and there might be life, animals, and even people on other planets.
And for that, well, it wasn't the only reason that they executed him, but that was one of the reasons.
With that sort of climate, you're not going to know what reality is because anyone who comes forward with a different idea is either going to be part of a black budget program, which means they're never going to talk about it unless you really sit down with them and give them a reason why they should, or the rest of us won't have access to the data.
So I think we don't understand what's going on with reality because we haven't had very adult discussions about these topics.
We've been afraid of looking at it and we've been so concerned with playing the game and conforming to the system that we won't talk about these topics, which have lots and lots of scientific evidence.
Howard, I was in high school, I was on the debate team for four years and I was the co-captain in the final year.
That taught you to look at evidence, present evidence, and present an argument around the evidence.
In debate, you're not allowed to discard evidence because it doesn't agree with your opinion.
It's based on reality.
And we don't know what reality is at this point because for at least 70 years, we have been squirreling it away in some basement somewhere in some government program.
And it was understandable during World War II that that was done, but we're not in those circumstances anymore.
So it's high time that we open the gates to this sort of information, look at who's been studying it and what do we know.
And I think that's what's going to happen, actually.
I think that's going to be the consequence of these congressional hearings.
Whenever I talk to anybody about Bigfoot or whatever it happens to be called in your particular region of the world, there are various, as we know, variants.
But whenever I talk with anybody about this, some of the reaction I get is, well, why are they so elusive?
And where are the dead bodies?
And, you know, where are the carcasses of those who've passed?
Do they bury them?
Or, you know, what happens?
And where do they live?
How come we don't find their settlements?
And all that kind of stuff.
And the contrary view more and more says, well, they might actually exist partly in our world and partly somewhere else that we don't fully understand.
So I guess I'm asking you now, and it ties into everything that we've talked about prior to now, what's the big attraction in the subject of Bigfoot for you?
Why are you fascinated by this?
I'll tell you what really got me interested in it was the connection to crop circles.
I have seen in Wiltshire balls of light, ball lightning, if you will, on two occasions, one of which I was able to film an orb that was hanging below a cloud in a stationary position, and another time on the ground on Knapp Hill overlooking the Eastfield there by Alton Barnes.
So I had seen ball lightning.
I had heard accounts of ball lightning and orbs, which I think are the same phenomena.
People could disagree, but I think it's all the same sort of phenomena, coherent matter.
I was really surprised when I started looking into the Bigfoot topic a few years ago.
And I had encountered individuals who took my remote viewing classes in Boulder over the years who had said that they had seen Bigfoot in Colorado.
I encountered several witnesses with very good accounts, including one fellow who said he had been pulled out of his sleeping tent in the middle of the night in an empty campground by something that was extremely strong.
I mean, he said like rocket strength.
Right.
Well, you don't get any more three-dimensional and real than that, do you?
Yeah.
So this is what it goes back to.
Are witnesses going to talk about the experience if it's given them a type of post-traumatic stress disorder?
And a lot of these witnesses, again, going back to the willingness to look at evidence, are we hearing from these witnesses or are some of them, like the ones I've encountered, so frightened by their experience or shocked that they don't want to tell too many people about it for fear of ridicule?
It's our attitude towards the data, again, that matters.
Are we going to hear about it?
But what really hoped me and Howard was hearing from witnesses who I talked to over the years who said that they saw balls of light around Bigfoot Sasquatch type life forms, that they had some of the same sort of encounters we had around crop circles, space-time slips, cameras, and batteries failing.
I couldn't Believe that this was happening around something that I used to believe was just a very rare relic primate, as we've heard over the years on different shows and from anthropologists and cryptozoologists and so forth, that this is just a very rare ancient ape.
And I'm thinking, well, if it's just an ordinary mammal, but that's just very rare, why would it cause cameras and batteries to fail?
Why would you see balls of light?
And why would people have several hours of missing time if it's your ordinary mammal?
So looking into the topic further, you realize the Bigfoot phenomena has all of the same characteristics of other so-called paranormal phenomena, ghosts or crop circles, even UFO experiences, you know, people's cars stalling.
People's cars stall around Bigfoot too, just as they're trying to get away, if they're trying to get away.
But the most surprising thing about it, Howard, was some of the best qualified witnesses would tell us that Bigfoot is invisible if it wants to be.
They would literally tell me like Ron Moorhead did in an interview I did with him not too long ago on my YouTube channel.
That was when he was in the high Sierras at his hunting camp and he recorded those sounds that are called the Sierra sounds that you can hear on YouTube, an excerpt of that.
I think he had nine trips up there, eight miles up into the high mountains on horseback.
He said you would never see these creatures, even if you put mics in the walls of the structure that they built to live in up there, their hunting structure.
You put mics in the walls, you would put your head out immediately.
The recorder was recording them talking on the other side of the walls, but you wouldn't see anything and they didn't cast any shadows when they should have cast shadows.
So it suggests that there are life forms that are invisible when they want to be, that can shift into parallel realities.
And one thing about that, Mark, excuse me, Howard, is that there are theories going back to the 50s about parallel realities, multiverses, and so forth.
Hugh Everett III at Princeton suggested the many worlds theory in his dissertation, which, by the way, was not well accepted back in the 50s.
The many worlds theory of Hugh Everett.
You can look it up.
It's another interpretation of quantum mechanics, which a lot of us think is a simpler, more direct interpretation of the quantum wave function, which is that there's just lots of different descriptions of reality and you and I only see one slice at a time, so to speak.
That doesn't mean the other descriptions aren't there.
And maybe there are life forms and beings and creatures that over the millennia have learned how to navigate that many worlds landscape.
It's a possibility.
And that leaves us questing for answers here.
Now, I don't expect you to have an answer to this question.
I certainly don't.
But, Simeon, do you think when it comes to Bigfoot and the confluence of phenomena, ball lightning, orbs, and those sorts of things and invisibility, do you think, and have you ever thought about this, that, you know, ask the question, is Bigfoot of the energy or has Bigfoot learned to use the energy?
If you see where I'm coming from here.
Yeah.
It's a bit of both, in my view.
Bigfoot may be a relative of ours that is just more evolved than we are in many ways.
I mean, they don't build sophisticated technological devices like we do, you know, like cars and computers and electrical systems because they don't need it.
They can move around and do what they need to do from the background energy of the quantum field.
And that would seem to many people, I mean, it would just seem so controversial and surprising, but don't we have examples, going back to what we were saying earlier, of other animals that have learned to adapt using what's already in the electromagnetic spectrum, like electric eels, cuttlefish, which can blend in with their background almost instantly?
We have examples of animals that are very good at using electricity, magnetism.
Even fruit flies have a toroidal magnetic shape, a toroidal shape in their brain that allows them to detect magnetic fields and navigate the planet moving around where they need to go.
A lot of animals have this magnetic capacity.
So it doesn't seem to me that far of a stretch just to imagine that, and it may be a tough one for our collective ego to accept that there are more evolved life forms around us.
They may not be exactly human like we are, but they may evolve past where we are to do things that you and I can't do consciously.
We need to take classes in it called remote viewing or something like that.
But these could be nature's PK artists that they can, you know, capture, they can interact with the electromagnetic spectrum in a way that gives them abilities in a way that we're not surprised that electric eels can do in other animals.
But they've just evolved past a point where we can even understand it.
So I would say, yeah, they're using what's already in nature.
If you look into defense contractor patents right now, Lockheed Martin and others, and I mentioned this in Dark Matter Monsters, you find patents for cloaking and invisibility, even teleportation.
So if our society is discovering it now, why wouldn't we just assume that some other life forms already discovered this in the past, and they're actually so good at it now, we can't even detect them if they don't want to be detected.
And the most uncomfortable potential truth of all is one that kind of hurts, but we're coming face to jowl with it quite often these days.
And that is the notion that perhaps previous civilizations to our own, I'm thinking about maybe the Egyptians or the Mayan civilization or others, may have known about this stuff before us.
And we were there, but we've simply forgotten.
That's a big possibility.
That is definitely a big possibility.
I think there's an assumption in our educational system that we all learn that we're the most evolved humans that have ever been here on the planet, right?
We just assume that we're the most advanced.
We have all this very sophisticated technology, microelectronics and so forth.
It's too cool for school.
It's amazing.
I mean, you and I, again, both worked with electronics when we were younger, shortly Radio, and you just think, wow, this is the most sophisticated thing that ever could exist.
Even before the age of digital technology, you and I were doing things with analog that seemed the most sophisticated, the most evolved.
But let's say there were other civilizations that have departed, disappeared for whatever reasons, went extinct, and they developed more technology and everybody forgot about it.
It could have been natural catastrophes or something like this.
And let's say there's some survivors from those societies that are still around and they don't want to interact with us.
We don't even want to interact with each other a lot of the time.
So you can't blame another species for maybe saying, well, we only want to encounter them once in a while and the other time we're just going to disappear into some sort of other reality where they can't see us.
Because the witnesses to Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yowie, they will say the footprints end in trackable ground.
They just disappear in the middle of muddy ground where you should see the footprints continue.
And they start out of nowhere.
And Jonathan Dover, a Navajo ranger who was tasked by the Navajo tribe to look into Bigfoot cases on the Navajo Reservation where I worked once during college during the summer, he said they just, it's like something just pulled them up into the air.
And he's a experienced tracker of criminals on the reservation.
He says the footprints should be there.
They stop.
And when they went back the other direction, they started in the middle of nowhere, intrackable ground.
You can't see where they came from or where they went.
So his conclusion is that they can become invisible or disappear.
Take your pick.
There are people who are very concerned that we, as part of the concern for our own ecology that has been developing and we should have and we need to have, that we need to be concerned that we don't rein on Bigfoot's parade.
In other words, we don't harass them as we've harassed so many species through the history of mankind.
Do you think that's a concern?
Might that impede our investigations into finding out what this is?
We don't want to go and impinge upon their habitats or spoil their lives.
If they want privacy, then privacy they should have.
That is definitely a big concern.
And it's a concern amongst enterprises, companies that work out in areas where there are large forests and places like this, that talking about the sightings of the loggers out there might have, you know, it might cause the Endangered Species Act to come into play where they would not be able to continue their operations out in these remote areas.
And so they might not be talking about it for that reason.
I do have a petition up on change.org, change.org slash protect bigfoot.
Just to this end, I think our federal government here in the U.S. should recognize that they exist and just give them sort of some sort of legal status.
I don't think they're animals.
Some people do.
I don't think they're animals.
I don't know if they're completely people like we are.
They seem to be somewhere in the middle or maybe an evolved type of person, but I think they should be recognized legally to exist because I don't think it's a good situation where people are having violent encounters with them and shooting at them and so forth.
I think if we want to have a healthy relationship with them like we would with any other intelligent species, it doesn't start by trying to kill them or attack them.
So I think some sort of legal status.
We already know that the Forest Service has reporting forms in the Northwest.
The Army Corps of Engineers wrote about it, I believe, in the 80s, and Mount Hood National Forest.
You can see this at the Sasquatch Outpost in Bailey, Colorado.
They have a photo of the Bigfoot reporting forms, which a Forest Service worker took photos of.
Isn't that interesting?
They've been recognized to exist by the federal government.
We're in this gray zone, like we are with UFOs and UAP, where it's being studied, but is it classified?
What happened to the reports?
I was going to say, where's the data?
Hello, where's the data?
Exactly.
How interesting.
Well, I think, you know, you and I have been staring into a very large can of worms at the back end of this.
And I've really loved this conversation.
Thank you for doing with me, Simeon.
When you were doing remote...
I know that you're still doing remote viewing, but when you were doing remote viewing, I'm just interested in the most kind of interesting subjects that you might have tackled.
I would be...
I'm perennially constantly fascinated by Nikola Tesla.
And was he closed down?
And what was taken out of that safe that was in the hotel that he spent his last days in?
And, you know, I think he was pretty much bankrupt by the end of that.
So he ended up with a big hotel bill at the end of it all.
But this man was a genius.
But all that stuff that disappeared, it would be fascinating for a remote viewer to zero in on him and that.
Is that possible?
Would you like to do that?
Do you know anybody who has?
Remote viewing is only as good as the feedback that you get at the end of the session.
If we don't get feedback on the particular target we're working on, there isn't any way to know how accurate it was.
So it really helps to have other sorts of information.
It's like the remote viewers contribute more information than you could get with other means, but if you do it in a vacuum, you can never really quite tell if it's on or off.
Even the best remote viewers miss target sometimes.
Again, it's not like a magic trick.
It's not like x-ray viewing where it's always going to be accurate.
You're getting impressions of things that can often be extremely accurate.
And you know it's accurate.
The viewers that worked in the government remote viewing program here in the U.S. told me that they had the same alphabet soup agencies come back to them again and again for more information.
And they wouldn't be doing that if the information hadn't been accurate to a large degree.
And there are cases, for example, where that under the Carter administration, where a downed Soviet bomber from a defecting Libya pilot was located precisely by two different teams of remote viewers in the late 70s.
And Carter even mentioned it, gave awards to some of these remote viewers.
That is proof that it works if you can find a downed Soviet bomber in the rainforest in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, as it was called at the time.
A huge area, right?
But the main benefit of RV, it's not just to explore esoteric topics, because we can't always get feedback on it.
I got feedback on my crop circle target, Howard, because I went over to your country to actually boots on the ground, take a look, right?
I just really wanted to see for myself, did I make all this up in the session about strange energies and shapes and all this?
And it turns out I felt like my session, again, was more accurate than I would have expected it to be.
There really were strange energies going on there.
The largest, you know, going back to your initial question at the beginning of the interview, I think the biggest benefit of RV for people is not predicting things in the future, which can take a lot of time and energy to coordinate a project like that.
It's more showing yourself that there's more to reality than they thought there was.
And you can often trust your intuition.
You can trust your gut feelings about things.
That's what it shows you, that your gut feelings and intuitions about things that haven't happened yet, people, places, situations, or in can turn out to be very accurate.
So some of the sessions that I've done, you know, just to answer your question, I've done some historical targets that were very interesting.
One of them was the destruction of the dinosaurs, which I think we have some feedback on.
Maybe not everyone agrees a lot about it, but the science seems to believe it was caused by a huge asteroid in the so-called Chixalab crater off of Mexico.
And I did get, when we were doing this target 65 million years ago, I did get this pristine atmosphere, bluish, the bluest blue sky.
The air was just incredibly fresh smelling.
I don't think I'd ever really smelled air like that nowadays.
But in the session I was getting this, I was really getting these tactile sensations.
And then I saw these creatures in a swamp and they reminded me of dinosaurs, even though I weren't sure what they were.
And all of a sudden, you know, the monitor moves us forward to the central event and I could see the dust and the whole atmosphere had changed.
And that was certainly an extraordinary experience.
That does not happen every time you do an RV session.
A lot of the time, it's just getting impressions and you write it down, you do your summary at the end and you look and you find it surprisingly accurate.
But there are a few times when you do sessions where you do feel like you're there.
It doesn't happen most of the time, to me at least, but you do get these tactile sensations and it's almost, there's a name for it called by location, where you feel like you're at the target site.
That's certainly a lot of fun when it happens, but it doesn't happen every single time.
Your people very kindly sent me a list of stuff here.
And that's sheer inefficiency on my part.
Or maybe I was just so fascinated, which I was with the conversation.
You know, most of this stuff I haven't actually got to.
So forgive me for that.
That'll be for another conversation.
One thing, though, that was included on that list was the U.S. government apparently monitored a successful Soviet PK experiment.
So that's like the watchers watching the watchers.
What's that all about?
Right, isn't it?
I heard this from a former Pentagon official at a remote viewing conference.
I met him over dinner and he said I had known him and his wife earlier from another conference and they got to see me again and he said, Simeon, I have a story that I think you'd be interested in.
And it was exactly like you said.
He said that the U.S. government had been monitoring a Soviet PK experiment.
The Soviets had extensive research programs into psychokinesis and remote viewing.
At least 29 different institutes in the Soviet Union were involved in this research, many institutes.
A lot of funding was put into this research.
And this individual, formerly from the Pentagon, told me that he was present when the U.S. government was monitoring a Soviet PK experiment in which the PK sender was attempting to bend a spoon a thousand miles away.
And the spoon was in Moscow.
And the PK sender was a thousand miles away.
And this individual said there were 30 of us in a room listening to this experiment going on.
And he said, I said, well, did the spoon bend on command?
He goes, yes, it did.
The spoon bent.
I said, well, isn't that a big news story?
I mean, you could, you could be government, U.S. government has proof of PK.
End of story.
End of debate.
We were moderate live.
The spoon bent.
He said, no, we couldn't talk about it.
Sources and methods.
It overrides the, you know, informing the public.
And so I said, well, can I talk about this?
He goes, no.
No one outside that room ever heard about it besides you.
I said, we have to talk.
We need to share the story with the public.
So I was able to get his permission to share this story.
It's in Dark Matter Monsters.
And I found it a perfect example, Howard, of everything we've been talking about in this interview.
The data exists, but is it classified?
For a variety of reasons, maybe necessary, maybe not.
But do you see what this implies?
Is that somebody knows about the truth of these phenomena, whether it's PK remote viewing, Bigfoot, UFOs?
I would bet that somebody knows exactly what's going on with this, and they're not sharing the data for whatever motivations they have.
But here we are, decades after this knowledge that PK is absolutely 100% real, that some people can bend things at a distance of 1,000 miles.
You could imagine the U.S. government being concerned about this.
They might want to bend the electronics in your computers at 1,000 miles away or your tank barrels or something like this.
But yeah, that's the story.
And I finally was able to get permission to talk about it and put it in the book.
And it's just endemic of the idea that the information is there, but we're not here yet.
Well, I think that's a great place to park the conversation for a part two sometime, Simeon.
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Just last question on the remote viewing and all of that stuff.
Do you think this stuff is still going on?
Is it being done today in 2022?
I would imagine that people are doing it here and there because it does Work and even in my classes, which I currently teach, we are doing a class right now online.
You know, I can see the students getting results that are just practice.
So, if it's really that, you know, if it's something that can be shown to be done consistently, I would imagine it's still being done.
But, like many things, Howard, it's probably been privatized.
So, the U.S. government can say we're not in the RV business anymore, like they've said around UFOs, when in fact it's just been contracted out to private contractors to do it instead.
We're not doing this ourselves, but we know people who are.
Simeon, I've loved this conversation.
I'd love to talk again.
If people want to take a look at your work, where's your portal online?
Oh, feel free to go to my blog, newcrystalmind.com, newcrystalmind.com.
You can find out everything I'm involved with, RV classes.
I'm happy to send people signed copies of my books, and you can get in touch with me, contact me in somewhere.
Simeon Hine, thank you for your time.
Thank you, Herod.
As ever, your thoughts welcome on the guest you've just heard and all the guests on The Unexplained.
Dr. Simeon Hine was the man you've been hearing.
More great guests in the pipeline as we come to the end of 2022 here on The Unexplained.
So until we meet again, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online, and please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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