Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

Aug. 7, 2022 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:12:12

Edition 653 - Jason Gleaves, Ufonly

World famous UFO researcher Jason Gleaves in Chester talks about image analysis - which he's an expert in - and his latest book on some of the world's greatest encounters with strange craft and beings...

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Well, thankfully, beautiful, bright day as I record these words, and the recent heat waves have subsided a bit.
	We're going into another one next week, though, they tell us.
	So we'll be watching out for that.
	But it's just nice to sit in what I now consider to be reasonable cool recording these words.
	It was difficult for a while doing recordings in a place that doesn't have air conditioning, and the temperature was hitting outside 40 degrees or more.
	And we'll hope that we don't go back to that.
	Like I say, I hope that everything is okay with you.
	Thank you very much for all of your recent emails and all of your recent messages of concern about the situation that I found myself in for the last couple of weeks.
	And I can now tell you about it.
	The reason that the podcasts have been delayed and why I wasn't on the TV recently was because of a sound accident that happened to me in a working environment, not my own home recording situation, where a vast amount of audio sound was delivered directly into my ears.
	The sound was from an amateur video that was being played.
	It included screaming that was off the chart, and I had no warning of what was coming.
	It was ridiculously loud and left me with tinnitus ringing in the ears and a problem.
	I've now been to see a specialist about this and, you know, have been given some advice.
	I'm going to be on meds for two months about this.
	But as long as I'm very, very careful, I'm back in business, which is good news.
	So I would say to you that if you're involved in recording sound, if you go to shows and concerts and stuff like that, sometimes the level of sound that you get presented with is way above reasonable limits.
	And I don't want to sound like your dad or your grandfather, but I think we all need to look after our hearing.
	And I'm hoping that I'm going to be okay after this.
	But that explains the situation that I've been in for the thick end of the last couple of weeks here.
	Very, very worrying.
	I did take a couple of days away before all of this really kicked in.
	And I went to southwest England to a place called Sidmouth.
	And I'd just like to thank everybody there for being so nice.
	It was a lovely, peaceful break.
	I was beginning to have this ear problem then.
	And it gave me a chance to try to work out what I was going to do about it.
	Very nice to meet Glynn, by the way, in the Connaught Gardens in Sidmouth, which is a fabulous place.
	He and his wife, regular viewers of the TV show and fans of the podcast.
	Glynn, I hope you're listening to this.
	It was really nice to meet you.
	It was such a surprise to meet somebody who recognized me not by voice, but by face.
	Very strange.
	I think it must have been a shock for him, too.
	Some shout outs.
	Before we get to the guest on this edition of The Unexplained, Jason Gleaves, UFO investigator and, of course, expert image analyst.
	We'll be talking about his new book.
	Let's say hello to Stephen in Oregon, Sean in Surrey.
	Sean wants to know if there's any reason why Michael Horne hasn't been on the show recently.
	Not really, I just haven't got around to it, but I will.
	Thank you for that, Sean.
	Max tells me a strange story about a disappearing dinosaur at the museum in Bolton.
	Apparently, it's like a Mandela effect thing, I am told.
	I don't know whether this is the case.
	Maybe if you're listening from the museum in Bolton, you can tell me.
	But there are people who have a memory of there being an exhibit of a dinosaur there that was never there.
	It's like people apparently had a memory of a TV show for kids that never existed, we're told.
	And people have a memory of Nelson Mandela not dying in old age as he did, but dying on Robin Island.
	So very strange.
	Hello to Ben and Phebb in South Dakota, Ben and Phebb.
	Nice to hear from you.
	I know you wanted a shout out.
	And there you've got it.
	Adrian got in touch and he has a story here.
	I'm going to read it quickly.
	Thanks for this, Adrian.
	Adrian says, regular listener to the podcast.
	I'm a Brit.
	Left the UK 20 years ago.
	Now in Germany.
	Love listening to the podcasts.
	The story.
	I was living with my then partner in South Lincolnshire in a cottage that's about 125 years old.
	My partner had a badly disabled son who lived with his dad but came to us most weekends.
	Although 13 at the time, he had a mental age of a toddler and he was blind.
	So we had some musical toys that he used to love, one of which you press the top of and it played Brahm's lullaby.
	This is what happened.
	The events are these.
	Number one, we were early birds and one Saturday morning about 5.30 we were lying in bed when suddenly his toy, which was downstairs in the lounge, began playing its music.
	The house doors were locked, neither her son nor anybody else was staying with us.
	We looked at each other and as the man of the house I went downstairs like you do.
	The toy was on the floor where it lived and everything was silent and in order.
	I checked the toy and there was nothing apparently wrong.
	To say that it frightened us was an understatement, but more was to come.
	Toys that activate themselves.
	Number two, the house was fitted with a combi boiler or furnace as you call them in the USA.
	Meaning that if a hot tap or faucet was opened, the boiler would start and it would make quite a roaring noise until the tap or faucet was closed.
	So we were lying in bed about 11 p.m. and suddenly we heard the roar of the boiler from downstairs.
	Again, we looked at each other and very scared, I went downstairs.
	The house was quiet except that the kitchen sink, hot tap or faucet, was turned full on, pouring out water.
	This is an old-fashioned tap with a cross-shaped top, so you physically have to turn a number of rotations to open it.
	Not a lever or lever type.
	It would be completely impossible for the tap to turn itself to the maximum unless somebody had turned it.
	but we were alone in the house with the door locked.
	The most worrying and frightening thing was the Point three.
	Long story short, the musical toy activated twice more and another time around 5 a.m. we were woken when my Warfdale stereo tuner, what we used to call a stereo system, turned itself on and we heard the radio again.
	This was a well-made unit and the on button had to be pressed firmly to turn it on.
	So how did it turn itself on?
	I don't know what to think.
	I've been 40 years in electronic engineering.
	I've got an MSc qualification in it.
	I checked the toy and the stereo, all of them working perfectly.
	And as for the faucet or tap, it could not turn itself on.
	Strange story.
	Believe me, I think these things do happen.
	I have told one story from when I was living in the Midlands near Birmingham when something like that happened to me.
	But I won't go back over that.
	All right, let's get to the guest on this edition.
	He has a new book out.
	It was published on the 1st of August when we recorded this.
	The book had not been released yet.
	It is out now.
	It's called UFO Encounters Up Close and Personal.
	Jason Gleaves is in Chester, and this is the conversation that I had with him.
	Jason, thank you very much for coming back to my show.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing fine.
	Thank you, Howard.
	I have the new book coming out.
	It's exciting times.
	Yeah, I mean, look, your career, I don't know whether it's the touch of this show or something, but it's really exploded in the last year or two, hasn't it?
	Yeah, yeah, it's really taken off.
	Well, especially with the analysing of photographs and videos, you know, of UFOs for people all around the world, it seems to have really taken off.
	And again, from I was on your show, yours was the first show I was on a couple of years ago now, wasn't it?
	It's amazing how quickly, you know, if you are good at what you do, and you are, it's amazing how quickly these things can take off for you, I think.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	Not to blow me on trumpet or anything, but I enjoy what I do.
	It's something I really enjoy, yeah, and trying to find out the unexplained and what those things are in the sky.
	And even now, the image analysis is something that's a very specialist field.
	Not many people do it.
	I get a lot of emails from people and I'll probably get two videos a week.
	And I can't analyze people's videos because I don't have the equipment to do it and I don't have the knowledge to do it.
	So I usually point them in the direction of Bufora or maybe you or maybe MUFON in the US if they're in the US or whatever it might be.
	But there is an increasing number of people out there with an increasing number of pictures and videos that they want looked at.
	Oh, yeah, it's never ending.
	And like you say, yourself, you get images sent to you and you give them to the relevant people.
	But people from all over the world will approach and say, could you explain this?
	I caught this in one of my photographs or my videos and I don't know what it is.
	And again, it's the Sherlock Holmes time, isn't it?
	You've got to roll up your sleeves and try and find out what it is.
	And, you know, we'll get into the images from people in a little while, but it is a fascinating field.
	And it's a very specialist field, I think we'll come to understand.
	Talk to me quickly, for those people who haven't heard you on any of my shows before, about you.
	You know, who you are, what you do, how you got into this.
	Yeah, well, it probably goes back to a sighting I had with my sister when I was seven years old in Aintree in Liverpool, right near the race course.
	And we saw a metallic disc-shaped object outside the window, and we were playing upstairs in my grandparents' house.
	And this thing took off at high velocity, and we just carried on playing as if nothing had happened.
	And basically, I'd forgotten about it.
	It just totally went from my mind, whether it was a missing time type of thing.
	I don't know.
	And it was later on my sister actually reminded me when we were getting more into depth with the ufology thing nowadays, you know, 2014 onwards, probably.
	And she actually said, you know, do you remember when we saw that object outside the window?
	And I said, no, and it slowly came back.
	I suppose that's where it started.
	And then all through the early ages, I read all the unexplained magazines, the books, Arthur C. Clarke Show, anything unexplained or UFO or anything like that.
	I was straight there trying to absorb it all, take it all in.
	Then, of course, you were in the Air Force, weren't you?
	Yeah, then leading up really, the bigger thing was the Air Force sighting.
	I was at REF Cosford in the Midlands, I think it was March 1993, and I was on base.
	I'd friend an older corporal in the guard room, and there was a young airman on the guard post at REF Cosford.
	And early hours of the morning, the radios kicked in, blaring away in the guard room.
	This young airman was screaming down the radio to get the guard commander out to the airfield because there was a large craft hovering over the runway.
	The RAF police and military guards all went out there and everyone saw this huge triangular shaped craft hovering over the airfield.
	And it was described at the time to be the size of a battleship.
	It was huge in size.
	It went from that base to another nearby base, which is RAF Shawbury.
	And the on-duty air traffic controller actually saw the craft and got the radar lock and everything on this thing.
	And it was firing very thin pencil beam lasers down towards the ground.
	The impression the air traffic controller got at REF Shawbury was that it was looking for something.
	It looked like it was looking for something.
	But on that same evening, throughout the UK, there was actually other paid people, witnesses, on-duty policemen who actually saw a similar type of craft, you know, triangular and shape.
	So it's quite documentated.
	It's a very famous case.
	And of course, firing lasers, and this is very relevant to all of the Tic Tac stuff and more recent stuff that's been reported being debated in Washington right now, firing down lasers could be, as you say, searching or locating something.
	You know, that's what that could be for.
	Or it could be construed by some as an attack.
	You know, it's a serious thing.
	And when we get these reports, I don't know whether you, there's no reason why you should have, but Jeremy Corbell was on my show about a month, six weeks ago.
	He made the newspapers on the basis of what he said because he talked about having got reports of the military in the U.S. having fired upon craft because what they were doing was perceived to be a threat.
	So there may have been those, and we don't know, who might have perceived what happened over that airbase and the other places as some kind of threat.
	This is it.
	You know, the military will probably always take that stance that anything is a threat.
	If it's uninvited, it's going to be a threat, isn't it?
	So they will put that down to that.
	But, you know, if you look at it from the other side, the ET side or the extraterrestrial side, you know, they might be searching, they might be helping.
	You don't know.
	You don't know, and we can only speculate.
	And it is, what is it now, 29 years ago since this happened.
	So the chances of getting some new information about this, I won't say they're slim, but they're not great.
	It would seem to me.
	There must have been a lot of people then.
	If this thing was of such a scale and a size and doing things that could not be explained, there must have been a certain amount of trauma for people who are on duty there.
	Because we have to say that, you know, Cosford, an inland base, that's not the kind of stuff that happens there.
	No, no, Cosford, it's a training base.
	It's where the young airmen go, where they pass out from the basic training.
	They'll go to Cosford and then they actual trades.
	So there's still these young lads, basically.
	And to see something like that must have been very traumatic.
	And if the young airman was on the guard post on his own, which he was, and we're talking if anyone's ever been to an airfield at night time that's not in use, it's pitch black, it's totally, you know, quiet.
	And to see something like that must have really got to the young lad.
	I would have thought so.
	I was brought up for a period anyway.
	My parents lived in Freshfield, you know, near Formby.
	You'll know where that is.
	And you've got the Ainsdale airbase there.
	Wood Vale, yeah.
	Wood Vale, and that's still going.
	They used to do their training flights from there.
	And, you know, at night time, that just goes completely dark.
	There is nothing there.
	So something happening on a site like that, I can imagine would cause quite a stir just before we get off this, because we have talked about it before.
	To the best of your knowledge, did they debrief people after this?
	We hear the famous stories of people being told not to speak and that sort of thing.
	Were people debriefed?
	I think the people came up from London to the base, what I'd heard, and were debriefed and whether they were told not to speak about it, because not an awful lot was actually said on the base.
	It was something a lot of people probably didn't even know happened.
	So whether they must have been told not to speak, because it was during that era when everybody was probably told not to say anything anyway.
	So not like today where it's pretty much out there for the public.
	I wonder, and again, you and I could only speculate, I wonder if we're going to hear any more about this, whether there will be people willing to say more about it as they get older and as they get closer to exiting this mortal coil.
	I just wonder whether we're going to hear more details or whether that's going to be it.
	I'm sure we will.
	I'm positive that disclosure, you know, it's approaching.
	I personally think disclosure has already happened, you know, just the sheer volume of images and footage out there that is legit.
	You know, it's not faked in any way or it's unexplainable.
	You know, so craft are definitely visiting.
	But obviously with disclosure coming through the media, that's where most people will actually get their first taste of it.
	And it's slowly being drip-fed to the populations around the world.
	You know, I'm inclined to agree with that.
	I was talking to Gary Heseltine, who's addressed the Brazilian Senate or whatever it was a month or so ago.
	They had a major hearing and Gary went down there and talked about that.
	And afterwards, he was actually still there.
	We talked about this.
	And he said that it's a kind of drip, drip, drip thing that is happening at the moment.
	And I'm inclined to agree.
	We're getting more and more information.
	And as you say, you could argue that disclosure's already happened.
	What we need is confirmation.
	So it's not disclosure that we're looking for.
	It's confirmation and explanation.
	Yeah, yeah, definitely.
	Yeah.
	Like you say, I do really do think it's here, you know, and it has been here for a long time.
	It's just it's catching up.
	The media is the national media, I should say, is catching up slowly.
	And they're not laughing at it.
	When that guy, Jeremy Corbell, came on my show, friend of this show, and said what he said, the newspapers didn't laugh at that.
	The newspapers carried that as, yes, sensational, but be very serious.
	And that's the difference between 2022, I think, and probably 1992 or 1982.
	All right, let's move on here to talk about the image analysis.
	That's how it all kind of started for you.
	You started to analyze people's pictures, which you do a lot now.
	How did you get into that?
	that basically started.
	Like I said, I've always had an interest in the unexplained.
	So I've always read up on old UFO cases and wanted to find out more.
	And, you know, obviously, I call it the Richard Dreyfus syndrome, you know, the character off close encounters of the third kind where you get that feeling that you need more information, you don't know why, and you watch one video on UFOs, and then you'll watch another, and it just continues that way.
	I sort of went that way about it, and then actually got into analyzing photographs to see whether they were real or fake, or, you know, and actually debunked a couple along the way.
	And then I started the Facebook page where I would put my findings on there.
	And people obviously got back, and then people started sending me their own images and footage.
	And it sort of grew from there, really.
	And then I started to analyze them in more detail again and then put the findings back out there.
	And that's basically where it grew from.
	Does something that is a misidentification, or even worse, a fake, does that scream out at you at the very beginning, this is not what it appears to be?
	Or do you have to do deeper analysis to discover that?
	Well, I always approach all the cases the same.
	I don't sort of deviate from it.
	So I'll always try and find out if somebody sends me an image of something unusual.
	I wouldn't debunk anything straight away.
	I would just go straight in and I would ask about the person.
	I would sort of try to find out a little bit more about them.
	Then I would obviously ask them the location.
	So if they live in around airports or military bases, things like that.
	I'd ask how the weather conditions were at the time because obviously weather phenomenon can react and give you different visual effects that you wouldn't really explain.
	And then I really go down, if it's a nighttime view and then it's an aerial photograph, so then you're probably looking at satellite apps that could see what was actually flying over at the time.
	And again, aircraft apps, because you can actually go back and see where you are, what location you're at, and basically see what was flying over at the time, you know, in the air.
	And then I would start to go into the visual, the image analysis itself.
	So I'd always ask for the original or the best original image that they could give me.
	And then I would basically upscale that.
	So the reason I would do that is if you go into a normal image per se, you know, a normal uploaded image and you try and upscale it or zoom in, it just pixelates.
	So you can't really see the detail in there.
	So I would upscale the image to the best I could, you know, the largest high resolution.
	And then when you actually zoom into that image, it doesn't pixelate as much.
	So you can actually get more detail out of it.
	But does upscaling put stuff there that actually wasn't there?
	No, not always.
	You know, you will...
	I don't really know what...
	So, you know, maybe there was a bush or a building or something else within the background or foreground of the object.
	And, you know, that's really good for perspective.
	So it can give you a good gauge of the height and the distance.
	You know, anything can help in that respect.
	And then obviously it's run through all the filters.
	I said I use Photoshop.
	It's no secret, but I don't use Photoshop to actually change anything or manipulate anything.
	I just use the filters on the Photoshop.
	And that brings out more detail as well.
	Right.
	Now I get, and you get much more than I do.
	I'll probably get two videos or two sets of pictures per week from people.
	And they will say, we just wanted you to see these, Howard.
	And, you know, I always have to say that there's nothing very much that I can do apart from just look at them just as an observer and, you know, say whether I think it's interesting or, you know, I'm not sure what that is, but it's an uninformed observer's opinion that I'm giving.
	Why do you think that so many people now are reporting, for example, lights in the sky?
	I get loads of videos from people saying at dusk I saw this.
	It was moving in an irregular fashion.
	It was illuminated.
	And, you know, you think, well, maybe this thing is a drone catching the sun or a plane catching the sun or a bird.
	It might be a white bird up there.
	But, you know, what do I know about this?
	But there seems to be an absolute deluge of these things this last year or so.
	And I'm wondering what's going on, really.
	Well, it's probably the cause of the TikTok videos and stuff like that that's been actually brought forward in the media and made more people aware of what's actually happening and the way the governments are taking an interest in this now.
	And more people will come forward and talk now because it's become way less of a subject where you were thought of as a mad person or something where you would actually come forward.
	People wouldn't talk about it because of ridicule, etc.
	Pilots, for example, you could lose your job over reporting UFOs.
	So the whole culture has changed over the last few years, especially.
	Yeah, people have been enabled, haven't they?
	And more and more people also send me strange cloud formations.
	You know, I can look back over this year.
	I've had a few of these where people have sent me things that look like clouds.
	They're rectangular.
	They're strange shapes.
	And there are no other clouds, but you will see this strange triangular or rectangular cloud hovering over a cricket field or something.
	You must have had some of those.
	There seems to be a lot of that going on.
	Yeah, yeah, it's very strange cloud formations.
	I mean, you're probably talking more of the lenticular type of clouds that give that illusion of a disc or a large object that doesn't look like a cloud.
	But then on the other hand, there are actually, I've had a few, I think, in the past where UFOs have actually come out of clouds, so they're using them as camouflage.
	So there is actually two sides to that.
	But, you know, weather phenomena can play unusual images, you know, it can actually show you things that, you know, you don't actually know that they're there, really.
	But the interesting speculation, the interesting supposition is that some of these may be shielding something behind.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Yeah.
	And like you say, there was a famous case, I can't recall at the minute what it was.
	It was over a military base.
	And again, it started as a cloud and it actually transformed and manipulated itself into a UFO, you know, a disc-shaped object over a couple of frames.
	So, you know, there is the exception where it's been caught.
	So I would still advise everyone to keep on taking their photographs of anything unusual because, you know, you just never know.
	And the advice to give to people who say contact me, and I love to see them.
	I can't give a professional opinion on them because I'm not a professional in those things.
	What should they do?
	Where should they go first?
	Well, there's plenty of places on Facebook, you know, UFO sites, things like that.
	You can actually put your images on those and people can help you there.
	You can come on my page, UF only.
	You can contact me through there too.
	And I'll be happy to help.
	I'll have a look at the images for them and send them back.
	I don't charge anyone to do this, you know, because I believe in UFology.
	It's a pretty open book.
	And, you know, why should I profit from someone's photographs?
	You know, it's there for everyone to see.
	Again, like yourself, you know, they could send stuff to you and you could send it via.
	But there's always someone there that can help out, you know, and sort of have a look at what they've taken.
	And the most important thing is that people must feel that in this modern era they are empowered to do this and they are making a contribution, even if what they turn out to send doesn't, in the end, it doesn't pan out to be a UFO, something that we can't explain.
	It's still valuable to do this.
	Just before we leave this aside, Jason, do you think that there is more of this now, that there are more genuine, if there is such a thing as a genuine UFOs, do you think there are more genuine UFOs out there now?
	Oh, yeah, definitely.
	Again, I mean, I go out quite a lot at night and Skywatch and try and, you know, it's called C5 that people are aware of, that you go out and actually try and make contact.
	And, you know, if you're ready to see your UFO and you're open to it and you actually go out at night, you know, you could probably see something.
	Definitely if you want to see UFOs, it's not a gift to one person or anything as such.
	You know, anyone can actually go out into their garden.
	They don't have to go anywhere special.
	And if they're ready and open and feeling ready to have contact, you know, they will show up.
	You know, I can go out and see quite a few at night.
	And I've filmed quite a few myself.
	So what are you doing?
	Is this the Stephen Greer thing where you're essentially thinking at them?
	Yes, yeah.
	In my second book, I actually give a breakdown on how to actually go out and achieve this, how to set yourself up if you're going out in a group maybe, or if you're going out as an individual.
	And, you know, basically it's a very basic meditation type of thing.
	You know, again, you don't have to be an expert or anything, but if you feel you're ready and, you know, they think you're ready to have contact, you go outside and they will show up.
	Really?
	Because I've done that.
	And maybe I haven't been in the right frame of mind.
	Maybe I've been Mr. Journalist and been a bit skeptical.
	But I live near a big park and I've gone into that park at dusk and in the darkness sometimes.
	And I've done exactly what you said.
	I'm not a great one for meditation and stuff like that.
	I think my brain moves too quickly.
	I'm always on something, thinking, thinking, thinking.
	So it's difficult for me, but nothing has ever happened.
	No, I've really got to emphasise this.
	It's nothing special to any individual.
	And if you go out, I mean, you know Peter Slattery very well.
	He's a good friend.
	And he's got a lot of really good footage and films and videos on how to do this, how to go out and actually, if you're ready to see them.
	And they'll come over and basically what you will probably see that I see an awful lot of are the bright illuminated objects coming over.
	And again, I illuminate them so they're not satellites or aircraft.
	They've got no strobe lights on them or landing lights, etc.
	And sometimes they'll crisscross each other right over my head.
	You know, and then it's quite impressive to see.
	And then also a form of interaction, a form of CU5 that you can actually achieve is where they'll what we call as power up.
	So they'll actually glow really, really bright at you like a torch and then dim off again.
	And that is a form Of communication.
	But there's no message.
	No, unless it's subliminal or it's taken in another way, I think it's basically them saying hello.
	You know, it depends probably where you're on, the level of experience of what you want to know.
	And is this, do you think from what you've researched, Jason, and from what you know doing it yourself, is this a comparatively new thing or have people been doing this for years?
	Because it's something that I've only started hearing about in the last 15 years or so.
	It's probably a new thing as in it's being put out there.
	I think people have been doing this for an awful long time.
	You know, you can go way back to, you know, in the 50s and 60s in the US where they would actually have large conferences in the desert.
	And they were doing all this way back then.
	But, you know, through generations and people discovering how to do it and reading books, you know, and people are trying it for themselves.
	And especially with Stephen Greer, the way he's come out now.
	And it's more of a, you know, upfront, this is what we're doing.
	You know, the contact thing is so important.
	I remember when I did the radio show, the very first version of it, 2005 or so, I think it was.
	So a long time ago, there was a guy who made the headlines in America who I had on my show a couple of times who was calling himself the prophet Yahweh.
	I don't know if you ever heard of this guy.
	I think I did, yeah.
	And he vowed to go to the top of a mountain and summon down something at a predetermined time for all the world to know.
	And as far as I'm aware, unless somebody tells me different, I had this guy on the show and I said, well, you're going to do it whenever it was, maybe the next week, whatever.
	And nothing happened.
	You know, that does not do the cause very much good, I wouldn't have thought.
	No, no.
	I mean, on the other hand, you've got the likes, like we've just mentioned, Peter in Australia with his new sanctuary set up over there.
	And then you've got James Gilliland in Iseti, US, Mount Adams.
	And he's probably up in the higher realms of receiving messages because he and Peter have both been at ESETI and had plenty of witnesses there.
	And they've said a craft will appear from north to east or, you know, wherever at this time.
	And bang, it crosses right over at the time they said.
	And again, here's that word.
	We're speculating here.
	We don't know whether this is the time when whatever it might be, whether it comes from somewhere within here, from another dimension or another planet, whether it's taking baby steps with us to getting acquainted.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And that's what we need.
	We need to be guided and, you know, this is the way to go about it.
	You know, again, it's from within yourself, you know, and it will come out eventually.
	And disclosure through the media, you know, it is coming.
	It's definitely coming.
	I think it is.
	And, you know, controversial or not, I've said it on air many times.
	I believe it is.
	Things are changing, and this world is changing, not in nice ways.
	If ever we needed some assistance from somebody who might always have been there, we don't know.
	I think now is that time.
	But, you know, again, how can I know that?
	I can only suspect it.
	The new book, UFO Encounters Up Close and Personal.
	I am holding it in my hand right now.
	It is, let's just count the pages here.
	It's close on 400 pages.
	This is a big and comprehensive book.
	Talk to me about it.
	Yeah, well, this is the third book I've wrote.
	I mean, the first two, the first book was really about the image analysis and what I do and showing people how to do it if they want themselves, how to, you know, what to look for.
	The second book was a second stage of really, it was going into the seven categories of close encounters because most people only think it's one, two, and three.
	And obviously the famous close encounters of the third kind with the Spielberg film and Dr. Hynek who you know brought that in.
	But again, it goes way on from there.
	And this book, I really wanted to know through UFology and to the community as a whole, I've got to know an awful lot of people and they've become really good friends.
	And I wanted to know how they got into it.
	I wanted to know what was the case, what was the experience, or a story from a family relative or something on those lines of how they actually were dragged into this field of ufology.
	And lucky enough, quite an awful lot of people got back to me on it, and yourself included.
	And there's some amazing stories in there.
	I think there are.
	And they're all, what I like about them is that they're all very different.
	And some of the people that we know, I mean, we'll do Philip Mantle's story first.
	We know Philip, of course, because it's his Flying Disc Press who published your book.
	You know, there's Philip's story, but there are some people who are very famous internationally as pure UFO researchers.
	They're not publishers.
	They're people who may write books, but there's people you will have seen on the TV and stuff like that.
	And a lot of people that we haven't heard of.
	And you certainly introduced me to a couple through this book.
	So if it's okay with you, can we work through some of the stories here?
	Yeah, sure.
	All right.
	Well, let's start with Philip from Flying Disc Press, good friend of my show, good friend of yours.
	His favourite case was the case of Mrs. Westerman and their children at a place called Normanton in West Yorkshire, the summer of 1980.
	That was a particularly active time.
	You know, we had a famous case in Scotland the year before that Malcolm Robinson has written about extensively.
	And of course, 1980 ended with Rendlesham Forest.
	And that was not all of it because that was the year of Alan Godfrey.
	So there was an awful lot of stuff.
	And, you know, Alan Godfrey, the man behind the Toddmedon encounter, the police officer.
	So a lot of stuff happening around that year.
	And I'll just quote from the book, it was around mid-afternoon when her eight-year-old daughter suddenly ran into the house Shouting and crying, and telling her mother to come quick.
	An aeroplane had just landed in the field.
	The Westerman's house was an elevated property near the end of a cul-de-sac, and beyond that were some fields that contained electric pylons.
	Mrs. Westerman switched off her washing machine and ran outside like any good mum would.
	And just a matter of a few hundred yards away, adjacent to the house, she saw an object, dull grey in colour.
	It looked like a Mexican hat.
	That sounds like a UFO.
	Around the object, there were tall men, quotes.
	They appeared to be dressed in silver suits.
	That's a classic.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And it's one of Philip's favourite cases.
	You know, that's the case that really got him involved in the UFology community and pulled him in.
	And he often quotes that case that it's one that intrigued him and still does to this day.
	And the other great thing about the book is that it includes the reflections and recollections of one of the kids, I think Sandra, in 2010, wasn't it?
	Yeah, who went over and he'd been in contact with her and, you know, recollected more over the years of what had happened and, you know, how it affected her.
	And, you know, it's really in-depth account.
	And, you know, it stood the test of time.
	So what do we think happened there?
	What do they think happened there?
	What did they encounter?
	Well, like you said, the illustrations in the book, there's obviously no photographs.
	So all the illustrations in the book, I've done myself to accomplish all the cases right through.
	And, you know, it was an odd-shaped craft.
	It was a Mexican sort of shape to the UFO itself.
	the three beings again in the suits and unusual looking.
	And you know, it's still, You know, the question is why there?
	Why go to that place?
	Did anybody else see it, as far as you know?
	Not what I know, only the people that were mentioned in the book, and the case, you know, that Philip has given to me.
	There's a case from a guy I've never heard of, Japanese ufologist Kiyoshi Amaimaya.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Kayoshi Ama Maya.
	And he apparently saw a black object.
	It was also seen, the interesting thing about this, unlike the story we've just talked about, this black object was also seen over other Japanese towns.
	And I think you've got some enhanced photographs in the book, too.
	Whatever this large black object was that was seen over a number of towns, it was moving slowly and steadily.
	Now, that's a report from Japan.
	We know that they have ufology groups.
	We know that they have cases.
	We just don't get to hear them that often here.
	No, no.
	And again, you know, Kiyoshi, you know, he's a great guy.
	You know, he's 75 now himself.
	He's been around a long time in ufology and through the cases.
	And he's actually given me quite a few good cases that I've never heard of and photographic cases too, you know.
	And this was the case that really, again, pulled him into the UFology community.
	And, you know, there's an awful lot of information here, as I put in the book, showing the images and the sketches that he actually did himself, you know, through the case, how it all happened.
	And basically, you know, that's one that stuck with him.
	How do they, since you have contacts with Japan, and I've got a regular listener who's now become a correspondent, Philip Jackson, in Kyoto, but I don't get many reports from Japan, and that country fascinates me.
	Do they look at this subject, as far as you know, Jason, differently from the way that we do here?
	Yeah, I think they do look at it very seriously.
	You know, they always have done.
	You know, it's a serious thing to them.
	And again, I think we really need to see more from the country of things because it's a worldwide phenomenon.
	You know, we generally see things from the US, UK, we get Brazil, Mexico, and things like that.
	But, you know, the Japanese, China, all around that area, they get just as many as we do.
	I'm just diverting to China, and you talked about the close encounters and the various gradations, and there are seven, and most people think there are three.
	There is a case, and I'm going to flip forward in my notes a little later in your book, of a very generalized, very large encounter that was had by some Chinese military people.
	And this was said to be a close encounter of the fifth kind.
	I'm just looking for the notes that I made on this, but it's further back in your book anyway.
	I'm just trying to see where that is exactly.
	But, you know, an astonishing series of cases, a bunch of military people who were in fact shut up.
	They were closed down.
	They were told not to talk about it.
	But I think the Chinese military was deployed in this.
	I don't know if you're aware, if you can remember what the case was.
	It is in the book.
	I think it was the case brought, well, got Mary Rodwell involved in it.
	That's right, exactly.
	Mary Rodwell in Australia.
	Mary's been on this show 3,000 cases she's looked into, and this was, or claimed to be, a close encounter of the fifth kind.
	Sorry, Jason.
	Yeah, I think they call it the Chinese Roswell, don't they?
	The case itself.
	Yeah, and it was, again, it was all the details are there in real detail, but skipping over the story.
	It was basically a craft, a disc-shaped craft that crashed in a military base, military barracks, and they had obviously ETs that had come out of the craft.
	So I think there was one that was still alive, and I'm not sure if the others were or not.
	But again, it's really detailed because, again, it's a case that none of us have really heard about, you know.
	And that was the aim of the book was to get things out that people have not really heard about.
	Well, this is a great account in the Mary Rodwell section.
	I'd heard a little bit about this, but not very much.
	And I think I'd heard it directly from Mary herself.
	But there was a generalized military alert in an area of China, I believe, when this happened.
	So clearly, the authorities took this seriously.
	And the principal witness that she quotes was only 17.
	So these were young recruits in the military service.
	And if they're told to shut up and don't talk about a thing, they probably will, because what would the consequences be of not doing what you're told to do?
	But nevertheless, the story got out.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And again, I've managed to, you know, get accounts from Mary herself, you know, who actually really gone into depth on it.
	You know, and it's a fascinating case.
	Don Schmidt, when I did some research into Roswell, the 75th anniversary, that didn't get as much coverage over here as I thought it might.
	And I was very disappointed in that.
	At least I was able to do a special on TV about it.
	You talk with Don Schmidt, and we know that he's got incredible credentials.
	He investigated Roswell with Tom Carey.
	I spoke with both of them some years ago and spoke with Don Moore recently for that Roswell show.
	And he talks, and I think this is a very valid thing to do in the book.
	He's not talking about specific cases because he's got a ton of them to talk about.
	But he talks about the thought process that got him involved in all of this, which was all to do with the JFK assassination and the idea that what you are told is maybe not all that there is.
	And that, it seems to me from your account of what he told you, that change of thought process in a young person's mind is something that got him asking questions and drew him into ufology.
	Yeah, it's definitely the trigger.
	You know, it's the trigger that actually got him involved.
	And again, it was a really good way that he put it across.
	You know, gives you a different view of the field, the community, and how people do get this trigger to involve them.
	A bit like myself, like I mentioned earlier, where I would read books.
	Obviously, the sighting was the trigger.
	And then I would watch everything and anything to do with UFOs and space and anything like that, unexplained.
	And again, his was obviously the JFK thing.
	But, you know, again, he went into the different books and everything else.
	And one thing just led to another.
	And he became, as we know, one of the leading researchers and authors in all of this.
	Kevin Briggs.
	Now, there is everything in this book.
	That's what I like about it.
	That's what I said.
	there are all kinds of accounts and this is one of the more and I'm You know, we have to be open-minded about this.
	But Kevin Briggs tells you that he's seen and interacted with UFOs and ETs for most of his life.
	He says that the path was shown to me by two blonde guides, alien guides, Aught and D. And he says that through their teachings, I've developed the ability to speak or more accurately share telepathic communication.
	And I've been fortunate enough to interact with their extended families and other ET species.
	Now, to some people, that's going to sound crazy.
	And to some people, that's going to sound like the next step from summoning lights in the sky in your garden.
	Yeah, it is really.
	But Kevin, he's become a really good friend.
	He's an ex-police officer from the UK.
	He now lives in Florida.
	I think it's Florida in the US.
	And I have quite often interactions with him.
	And he sends me photographs of UFOs and things.
	And again, his case was definitely one that needed to be in the book because of the diversity of it, you know, and what he'd actually encountered with the two beings when he was young in the bath, you know, at home.
	I mean, it's really compelling.
	Why does he think they picked him?
	I don't know.
	I think sometimes, you know, that's part of that person's journey is part of finding out why me, why have I been chosen to think?
	But he's very good at putting his side across.
	He's very good at explaining things.
	So maybe that was a reason.
	And it's not just, we've got to say it's not just him.
	In 2017, I think the most compelling part of that section of the book is that in 2017, just as he was having communication with these beings that he says he communicates with, his wife, who I think was outside in the garden or somewhere, saw and photographed a disc at precisely the moment he said that he was having one of these communications.
	So that was pretty interesting.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I actually analyzed, I mean, there's only a small photograph, but I actually analyzed that image for him.
	He sent it to me and I did the same thing.
	I went through everything, but I already know him, so I don't have to sort of question him because I know he's authentic.
	And what did you make of the photograph of whatever it was that his wife Sandy took?
	Well, as you can see in the book, there is a photo of it.
	If you go on his website, there's probably a more larger image than I've done.
	But it was definitely an object there at the time and everything that he stated it would be.
	And he was having interactions himself.
	And it's another sign.
	This object has got structure to it.
	It's definitely there.
	Where people may question if it's something else.
	That's up to them, not to their opinion.
	But there are things, factors to take into account that he was having interactions at the time and his wife photographed it.
	And we have to say independently, she didn't know that he was having that interaction at that time.
	No, no.
	Okay, I mean, that was simultaneous, and that's interesting.
	And your verdict on the photograph?
	Well, like I said, I believe there was a metallic disc-shaped object there that I found in my analysis, and I gave that back to him.
	And again, what he did with it was up to him.
	But yeah, it's just another photograph to prove that we are being visited.
	Just cherry-picking cases in the book.
	Dan Willis, one of the Disclosure Project's top secret military witnesses that testified at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. in 2001.
	A USO, that's basically an undersea object, unidentified submarine object, rather like the ones that have been reported recently connected with the Tech Tac UFOs, spotted by a U.S. quotes, reporting ship off Alaska.
	1969 was the case, decades before the Tech Tacs are anything like this.
	In 1969, I thought this secret report to be rare and highly unusual.
	I'm amazed to find that so many in the naval militaries of the world have witnessed these highly advanced craft coming and going from our oceans.
	So again, we cover the topic of USOs.
	Yeah, or submerged craft, you know, which is, you know, again, the Tic Tac recent video that's been released by the US military, again, that, you know, emerged from under the oceans.
	The pilots actually witnessed that coming up.
	So, you know, what Dan's saying, you know, is just another case of a different type of UFO, you know, where they're seen in a different location in the water, the oceans.
	Again, there are also people that have witnessed UFOs that have actually hovered over lakes and literally you can see them taking water on.
	There's a lot of strange things to do with the water and UFOs.
	We have to say that we are learning a lot about space, but we still don't understand a great deal about our oceans and what goes on in their depths.
	Malcolm Robinson, you talked about.
	Scottish investigator, looks at a lot of paranormal, unusual stuff and UFOs, of course.
	Great friend of this show.
	Fantastic author and a great guy.
	Talks about, I think it's pronounced, I always ask him how to pronounce this, and I always forget the Dechmont incident in 1979.
	This is a great case, and even though it's been talked about before and on my show, it's just worth remarking here, it's in the book.
	Robert Taylor, forestry worker, wasn't he?
	1979, so it's kind of in that 1979-80 period where a lot of stuff happened, saw what resembled two Second World War sea mines that descended from beneath a hovering object and impacted on the grass.
	The interesting part is that something grabbed hold of him.
	He has, I think, some missing time and his trousers were ripped.
	And the subsequent analysis of his trousers showed that they could only have been ripped in that way by something having grabbed him and exerted a substantial upward force.
	And what could do that?
	You know, in the middle of a forest, in the middle of Scotland.
	That's it.
	You know, Malcolm quite often brings up this case because obviously it's one that grabbed him.
	You know, again, he's got so many he could talk about, but this one always seems to emerge and come up.
	And this case still is the only case that has ever been reported of an assault by a UFO to the UK police.
	So it's quite unique in that respect.
	And this man, Robert Taylor, got quite a lot of coverage, didn't he?
	He did, he did.
	And Malcolm has actually still got the actual trousers that Mr. Taylor was wearing at the time of the attack.
	Because I've actually held them and had a look for myself, you know, at the gashes within the trousers.
	And again, if Malcolm's ever doing a talk or anything like that, he's got the trousers.
	He'll let you have a look for yourself to inspect them, you know.
	So again, this is another case.
	It's just very unique.
	You know, it's one that we've never really got to the bottom of.
	And that's one that keeps re-emerging in the media.
	And researchers like Malcolm keep going back to them because there is always more to say about that case.
	Yeah, yeah, definitely.
	You've got a couple of cases of fireballs in the book.
	And I don't know whether we can link them at all, but there's Edison Boa Ventura in Brazil, and he's been a researcher for 40-odd years and talks about strange events in the north and south shores of the state of São Paulo and fireballs in the sky there.
	And another story in the UK, Derek Savory, a fireball over Clacton in Essex in 1980, which again is the Rendlesham Forest year.
	I don't know whether there's any connection between these two, but they're both stories that involve fireballs in the sky.
	Yeah, they're just another.
	Again, their cases that, you know, those people, you know, has left a sort of indelible memory of what had actually happened to them.
	The fireball thing is just maybe like the glowing orbs that we're seeing an awful lot of today.
	Again, through the decades, the different types of ship or craft that people have seen.
	You know, obviously you go the 50s, 60s, 70s are the disc-shaped type of craft used to get into the 80s and the 90s, the triangular shaped, elongated, you know, that thing.
	All through the different decades and more up to today where we've got the orb.
	You know, a lot of people seeing the orbs.
	But the Derek Savory case over Clacton, Essex, 1980, and as we say, this isn't, it's around the same time as Rendlesham Forest.
	I think it was, you know, the same month, but whatever.
	And quotes, it says, later I researched the sighting in more depth and confirmed multiple witnesses saw the same objects in the pool over Felixdow and Ipswich, which is in the same sort of area.
	That's towards East Anglia.
	On the same night and the same time, I found the local newspaper he'd been given a cover story of a satellite on re-entry to quotes, throw the public off the scent.
	So, according to Derek Savory, quoted in your book, The belief that a cover story was come up with to try and explain away whatever this was.
	Yeah, which is quite often the case with these things where you know something will be put forward as a cover to you know discredit the people or the sighting or the witnesses.
	And Derek's a great guy, you know, again, he's become a really good friend.
	He has an awful lot to do with Rendlesham Forest.
	He does great tours down there, so he'll take people out to the landing sites of the UFO at Rendlesham Forest itself.
	And does he believe that what he saw and what those people in East Anglia saw was connected with Rendlesham Forest?
	It's all the same area.
	Yeah, he does.
	He actually does believe there's a link there, you know, somewhere along.
	But again, it's, you know, most people know of the Rendlesham Forest incident, but they don't understand or know of other cases related nearby.
	You know, other people have seen things that are more than likely are related to the Rendlesham Forest incident itself.
	I think somebody should write something about that whole arc of time, 1979 through 1980, because it seems to me that those two years were very, very peculiar years in this country.
	Yeah, an awful lot happening.
	And again, you know, that made the Rendlesham Forest made the newspapers.
	I can remember as a young boy reading the newspaper, you know, it made the front headline, you know, about the sighting.
	And then all through the years I've actually met Colonel Holt, I think it was about two years ago when he came over to the Outer Limits magazine conference.
	He was a speaker there and he actually did a really good talk, giving all the information right the way through of what happened and where he was taken out and what he saw.
	So yeah, I think it really should be covered in maybe a book or something of that time series.
	Covering that peculiar two years, 18 months, whatever, up to the end of 1980, there was a very strange arc of events that transpired.
	And you said that you met Charles Chuck Holt, who was the deputy base commander, of course, when all of these events happened at the back end of 1980.
	If you're listening to this, you don't know about them, check them out.
	You will be surprised.
	You must have asked him, what do you think went on?
	And if you did, what did he say to you?
	Basically, he still sticks by what he says.
	You know, he didn't know what he was looking at.
	He was basically going out under orders to investigate what was actually being seen there.
	Again, he really does not know what he saw.
	It was nothing conventional.
	It was nothing that he'd normally seen.
	You know, being a base commander, he was over aircraft on the base.
	So it was nothing like they had already.
	And he still sticks by what he says.
	You have some great stories and accounts in this book and some fabulous illustrations that you've done.
	And fair play to you for that, Jason.
	It's a great book.
	I've only been able to scratch the surface of it, so I recommend it.
	Just lastly, there's one story that I didn't get time to get to when I was reading the book yesterday.
	And that was, but it involves one of my favorite bands of the 1980s, probably one of yours too.
	Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
	Liverpool band.
	Holly Johnson went solo after that.
	Still very much loved and, you know, pride of Liverpool, these people.
	Hits like Relax.
	And Holly Johnson himself hits like Americanos that I love.
	You know, I'm a big fan of Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
	But there was an encounter by Brian Philip Nasher Nash.
	Can you talk to me about this one?
	I literally didn't make any notes on it and haven't got that far, but it involves them.
	So I've got to include it.
	Yeah, it was really just, I've got to know Brian through Carlyle, you know, in the Liverpool show.
	And Brian, I'd been a guest on Frankie Carlyle, and he goes on quite often as a guest himself and talks with Frank in Liverpool.
	And he basically wanted to talk to me, you know, and get to know, because obviously he's interested in UFOs and things like that and unexplained things of the kind.
	And basically, it was just somebody who was well known, really, who was interested.
	A bit like Robbie Williams.
	Exactly.
	Robbie Williams.
	Kim Wilde is said to have had an encounter.
	I mean, a long list of stars.
	Even Elvis Presley, I think, had some kind of encounter.
	We talked about that recently on the TV cape.
	I mean, there are literally loads of people, but what are the details of his sighting?
	I think it was just stuff he'd seen himself and it was unexplained.
	And really, it was his, you know, the fear of Doctor Who really, you know, when he was young, like myself, I watched all the Doctor Who and anything science fiction.
	And it was that underlining feeling of fear that it's been portrayed by, you know, that all ETs are negative and in that respect.
	And of course, we all know different, that they're not, you know.
	Then it's interesting.
	It is page 328 of the book, and I've got it here.
	And you've done a very nice illustration of the family looking at the old style 1960s, 1970s wooden TV and the fear of Doctor Who.
	And it's funny because I am one of many, many kids.
	The only time I've had nightmares in my life were induced by Doctor Who.
	Only ever had nightmares, you know, of that kind as a child once.
	And that was Doctor Who and the Daleks.
	Yeah.
	So that's basically what he's saying, that kind of stuff.
	It says, my interest in ufology and aliens goes back as far as I can remember growing up with a father who loved science and used to watch Doctor Who with me.
	But I guess I really became interested when I was in secondary school and somebody loaned me a copy of Chariots of the Gods.
	So it's literally a story of a famous person and their journey In all of this?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And you know, I wanted to get an outlook of many people, you know, who are all involved in the field in some way, you know, whether research or anything else, you know, right the way through, even like yourself, you know, where your grandmother wasn't at the sighting over Waterloo in Liverpool.
	And again, it's so interesting because it's something she wanted to tell you or, you know, you were interested to actually sit and listen to.
	Well, you know, we talked about this and I'm glad that you put it in print.
	And the illustration that you did is lovely.
	I mean, because I know that you have a connection with the railways, so you understand the rolling stock.
	Liverpool had these very iconic electric trains that would run on the various lines on the Wirral and up from Liverpool up to Southport and out to Ormskirk.
	And the trains looked mostly the same.
	They had sliding doors and lovely padded seats.
	And the design of each for each line, as you know, Jason, was slightly different.
	But you actually illustrated this memory beautifully because you actually drew exactly the trains that ran on the train line that ran behind Edna, my grandmother's house in Waterloo.
	Literally, she was yards from the train line.
	So their lives were very much affected by the trains.
	As a little kid, I used to be taken to see the freight trains going backwards and forwards and shunting stuff near Waterloo.
	But probably coal in those days.
	We were still using coal.
	So it was all part of our lives.
	But my grandmother was no pushover.
	And she was very demure at times, but she had a real turn of phrase about her and some words that I couldn't repeat that she used to use quite routinely.
	I mean, she was a wonderful, feisty, loving person.
	But she was not somebody who fabricated stuff and she was not interested in UFOs.
	In fact, I don't think she would ever watch sci-fi.
	So it wasn't her kind of thing.
	But she was adamant that early one morning, I think it was probably 6 a.m., it was before most people were up, she had a bedroom that overlooked the train track and hovering over the track was a classic wedding-shaped silver spinning disc.
	She drew it.
	And I don't know what happened to the picture that she drew, but she drew what she'd seen.
	And this would have been 70s, I think.
	Yeah, early 70s.
	And I had no reason to doubt what she said.
	And she never talked about it very much in later years, but it was a story that stayed in the family.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And that's what's so good about it is the fact she was not into ufology, not into science fiction or anything that would sort of sway her towards anything like that.
	And she saw something quite unique, you know.
	Completely unique.
	And it's the kind of thing that I would love to see one day and never actually did.
	And we just don't understand.
	And why was it hovering over the train track?
	Well, you know that the Liverpool Southport train line is not a train line that diesel trains run on.
	I think steam trains once did, but these are electrified lines.
	High voltage electrified lines.
	So why was whatever it was hovering at that time over an electrified line?
	Again, here's that word again.
	We can only speculate.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I love the book.
	I don't know.
	Is there anything huge that I've missed out in it?
	No, Norton.
	There's just so many.
	I mean, one case I did like was Mike Rogers, who was the driver of the Timbergang where Travis.
	Travis Walton, yes.
	How did you get him?
	I wanted to know when I first contacted Mike, and then Mike's become a good friend too, I wanted to know about, obviously, what got him into it.
	Or was it the sighting that they had where Travis was taken?
	This was basically for those...
	I've interviewed Travis Walton a couple of times.
	I have always found him both courteous and completely credible in the story that he tells.
	Now, not everybody would agree with me in that, but that's what I think.
	It was a bunch of loggers, wasn't it?
	A bunch of guys out in the forest and something weird they encounter, but Travis Walton is the one who gets out and he is the one who is abducted.
	That's it, yeah.
	And when I first approached Mike about this, he said, surely you want to speak to Travis, you know, you want him.
	And I said, it'd be nice to have Travis, but I want your account of what happened.
	Because nobody really, you know, asked the other people that were involved in the case because he saw the craft too.
	He was the driver of the truck.
	And I said, I want your account.
	I want what you saw.
	So he very kindly, he's gone into great detail where obviously everybody knows Travis got out of the truck, went underneath the UFO, and they all were screaming in the van and everything.
	They all took off.
	They made their exit.
	So what story did he tell you about what he experienced?
	It was just basically the fact that he felt guilty leaving Travis because they all assumed he'd been killed and he went back.
	You know, he said, I'm going back to get Travis.
	And basically he explains in his own words his side of what happened, which is fantastic.
	And it's still clear in his memory today.
	It's still clear.
	It's a very famous case, obviously, because of the Fire in the Sky Hollywood movie that was made from it.
	But a lot of things were changed in that movie to what Travis said.
	But, you know, Mike's account is so important, just like everybody else is, to what happened.
	Great book.
	You cover such a lot of territory, and that's why it's good.
	I think anybody starting in this, actually, you could do worse than pick this book up as the, if you're just starting an interest in ufology, maybe because of these shows or whatever, you would do a lot worse than to just pick this flying disc press book up, and that will be a good starting point for you.
	It's UFO Encounters Up Close and Personal.
	Jason Gleaves in Chester is the man behind it.
	Keep up the good work, Jason.
	Thank you very much, Howard.
	you, Star.
	One thing I didn't mention was that Jason's book is out on the 1st of August.
	So by the time you hear this, it might already be out.
	It's UFO Encounters Up Close and Personal.
	Jason Cleves is the man you've been hearing.
	It is a great 300 and well, nearly 400-page book, well worth seeing, published by Philip Mantler's Flying Disc Press.
	I'm out of time.
	Thank you very much for being part of this.
	My name is Howard Hughes.
	This has been The Unexplained Online.
	And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
	And above all, please do stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

▲